Mesh/Archive/2012-09-17

==Agenda==
#What Mesh bugs are still causing you headaches? Let us know so we know which ones to focus on! Nyx Linden 10:08, 17 September 2012 (PDT)
#What is the status of the mesh deformer for rigged mesh? CrystalShard Foo 10:17, 17 September 2012 (PDT)
#Are there any intentions to fix the incorrect height display in the appearance editor and oversized starter avatars? CrystalShard Foo 10:19, 17 September 2012 (PDT)
# Answer to Nyx, above - Metaphysical headaches...
https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-28416 Mesh: Default convex hull is smaller than it should be. 
https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-28612 Incorrect texture-face associations when low LOD meshes have subsets of high LOD materials. 
https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7883 Discrepancy between actual convex hull physics weights and documented calculation. Actually, a more pertinent perspective on that is here: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/Single-convex-hull-physics-weights-long-and-technical/m-p/1668273#U1668273 (No point in putting it in as a bug report.)Drongle McMahon
#Comment VWR-28416, the workaround to make smaller physics shapes isn't really viable because the collision shape displacement between Mesh objects, Convex Hull objects and Prims don't seem to be consistent. A vehicle designed to stand correctly on a Mesh road won't stand correctly on a prim road, as a result. Davido Chrome
#Is it Bug or feature that the preview of mesh upload don't show he physics hulls in individual colors anymore, also can you make the window resizable again, its like looking through a keyhole. Cale Flanagan 20:12 MESZ today 
==Meeting Notes==
==Attendees List==
*Cale Flanagan (cale.flanagan)
*CrystalShard Foo (crystalshard.foo)
*Drongle McMahon (drongle.mcmahon)
*Kennylex Luckless (kennylex.luckless)
*Lares Carter (lares.carter)
*Motor Loon (motor.loon)
*Nal (nalates.urriah)
*Nyx Linden (nyx.linden)
*Prep Linden (prep.linden)
*Rusalka Writer (rusalka.writer)
*Heidenstam (sveid.heidenstam)
*Theresa Tennyson (theresa.tennyson)
*Tiberious Neruda (tiberious.neruda)
*Tijakool Yiyuan (tijakool.yiyuan)
*Bazz Fazz (vir.linden)
==Transcript for Monday September 17, 2012==
[12:00]	Kennylex Luckless 	Hej.
[12:00]	Tijakool Yiyuan 	Aloha
[12:01]	Nyx Linden 	greetings all
[12:01]	Rusalka Writer 	Aloha.
[12:01]	Cale Flanagan 	hi, sorry nyx for somehow breaking the agendanumbers
[12:01]	CrystalShard Foo 	It's due to inserting a paragraph after the #
[12:01]	Theresa Tennyson 	Hello!
[12:01]	Nyx Linden 	agenda is here - feel free to add more topics: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group
[12:02]	Cale Flanagan 	i only wrote #question and return, see no difference, but wikiis my enemy it seems
[12:03]	Rusalka Writer 	Gotta love "is it a bug or a feature..."
[12:03]	Nyx Linden 	the previous topic threw off the numbering Cale, don't worry about it :)
[12:03]	Nyx Linden 	shall we get started?
[12:03]	Rusalka Writer 	Indeed.
[12:03]	Cale Flanagan 	so it wasnt me, wow:) thats new
[12:03]	Nyx Linden 	first topic: "What Mesh bugs are still causing you headaches? Let us know so we know which ones to focus on! Nyx Linden 10:08, 17 September 2012 (PDT)"
[12:03]	Drongle McMahon 	Oh. It was me then.
[12:03]	Cale Flanagan 	i filed you one of my headches as bug 116
[12:04]	Cale Flanagan 	and thats literally headache
[12:05]	Nyx Linden 	so this will also incorporate topic #4 - we'll jump around a bit in order. Drongle, you had a few bugs with meshes that were still causing you issues - is the relevant information in the jiras? anything else we need to know?
[12:05]	Rusalka Writer 	Aloha.
[12:06]	Drongle McMahon 	All in the jiras except the last one which is in better form in the forum.
[12:06]	Drongle McMahon 	I don't know that they are terribly important. They just annoy me.
[12:07]	Nyx Linden 	fair enough - thanks for the list! Anyone else have meshy bugs that they'd like to see fixed?
[12:07]	Drongle McMahon 	The shrunken hull one has led to problems for some people, and the mias-association of textures.
[12:08]	Cale Flanagan 	me,me,me, :) told you the number:)
[12:08]	Cale Flanagan 	its a very strnage bug which effects camera and llcastray
[12:08]	Theresa Tennyson 	I've found at least one lot where the land impact total reported under "About Land" doesn't match the land impact of the individual items on it, and the difference is a lot bigger than rounding error.
[12:09]	Nyx Linden 	BUG-116 Cale?
[12:09]	Cale Flanagan 	yep
[12:09]	Theresa Tennyson 	It's actually in my favor right now, but still....
[12:09]	Nyx Linden 	Theresa - is there documentation on where that happens?
[12:09]	Cale Flanagan 	today we also fuond put, that flying goes off when you try to lower height there
[12:09]	Theresa Tennyson 	I could file a bug on it but I don't know WHY so I don't have a repro.
[12:10]	Nyx Linden 	Theresa - just pointing us to a location where it happens and giving the numbers you expect vs what you are charged should be sufficient
[12:10]	Theresa Tennyson 	Wilco.
[12:11]	Nyx Linden 	ok any other bugs or shall we keep going?
[12:11]	Drongle McMahon 	Does this mean yopu are going to close any we haven't mentioned?
[12:12]	Nyx Linden 	no, it means that we're trying to hunt down the most painful ones to tackle first
[12:12]	Drongle McMahon 	ok
[12:12]	Nyx Linden 	Let Prep or I know if any others come up that weren't mentioned
[12:13]	Drongle McMahon 	Of mine, I thjink the texture assignment one is worst. I haven't checked it for a while though.
[12:13]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Have you seen this one? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjpNEqTA9Cg&feature=plcp
[12:13]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "What is the status of the mesh deformer for rigged mesh? CrystalShard Foo 10:17, 17 September 2012 (PDT)"
[12:13]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	It is Deformer so may be more for Oz
[12:14]	Nyx Linden 	Yep, deformer bugs are separate
[12:14]	Heidenstam (sveid.heidenstam)	Odd.
[12:14]	CrystalShard Foo 	Oh? Thought it was mesh related. Do you know atleast how's that coming along?
[12:14]	Drongle McMahon 	They get squashed with the sliders!
[12:14]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	As to status of Mesh Deformer... Karl was on MetaReality Friday.
[12:15]	Nyx Linden 	there is a correlation, certainly, but the bugs we're going to focus on first are the ones that are with features that are shipped - getting the deformer working is a separate, parallel effort
[12:15]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	He feels the Deformer is mostly complete at this point, provided no bugs are found.
[12:15]	CrystalShard Foo 	Oh goodie
[12:15]	Nyx Linden 	as for the status - Oz's usergroup is a better forum for that simply because he is more up to date on the current status of the project
[12:15]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	There is a new Prokecy Viewer out for the Deformer Project.
[12:15]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	It uses the latest Deformer Code that handles Male/Female base shapes.
[12:16]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	There are no test clothes for the new Deformer viewer. Oz needs more test clothes.
[12:16]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Previous test clothes need to be re-uploaded.
[12:17]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	So... status... we think done except for testng.
[12:17]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	/end
[12:17]	Drongle McMahon 	A Prok viewer !? :-)
[12:17]	CrystalShard Foo 	o.@
[12:17]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Project Viewer - sorry
[12:17]	Theresa Tennyson 	I think that's Ukranian. Seems appropriate.
[12:17]	CrystalShard Foo 	That was one mental image I didnt need :p
[12:17]	Rusalka Writer 	; )
[12:18]	Nyx Linden 	thanks for the status report. I'm sure Oz is all over it - I'll ping him internally to see if he needs a hand with the review.
[12:18]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "Are there any intentions to fix the incorrect height display in the appearance editor and oversized starter avatars? CrystalShard Foo 10:19, 17 September 2012 (PDT)"
[12:18]	CrystalShard Foo 	The avatar size issue may seem unrelated to the topic, but it is actually very much so: The taller size pushes people to create larger mesh content which eats additional LI.
[12:18]	Rusalka Writer 	Unpopular.
[12:19]	Nyx Linden 	actually a pretty timely question. I'm going to have to dive into the avatar height code for the server side texture baking project, so I might have some cycles to look at the height display inaccuracy bug
[12:19]	Nyx Linden 	thanks for the reminder!
[12:19]	CrystalShard Foo 	:D
[12:19]	Heidenstam (sveid.heidenstam)	Fixing unpopular things is something professionals do.
[12:19]	Rusalka Writer 	I wish these meetings had subtitles.
[12:19]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Penny Paton will love you if you fix the appearance read out.
[12:20]	CrystalShard Foo 	Haha, yes. Except cow hugs.
[12:20]	CrystalShard Foo 	*expect
[12:20]	Nyx Linden 	as for the starter avatar heights - are they significantly higher than most avatars in SL? Many avatars that I have purchased have been a bit larger than life
[12:21]	CrystalShard Foo 	They are. I was surprised to realize it when I first saw them.
[12:21]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	For more detail on scale in Sl see Penny's blog: http://pennycow.blogspot.com/2011/07/matter-of-scale.html
[12:21]	Nyx Linden 	I don't think we currently have any plans to modify or add new starter avatars but I can pass on the information to the team that reviewed the last round to see if we can prevent that in the future
[12:22]	Heidenstam (sveid.heidenstam)	Seems a chicken and the egg issue. Should the starter avatars be larger due to the size of the average avatar, or is the average avatar larger due to everyone starting so big? In either case, it pushes up LI costs.
[12:23]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Some of us are pushing the idea to make things smaller and save prims and polys. the trick is doing that without driving the physics engine into a melt down.
[12:23]	Nyx Linden 	partially, but there have been several rounds of starter avatars. Its probably more likely a question of how we defined the range of scales that you can set your avatar to
[12:24]	CrystalShard Foo 	As it goes they start with the sliders most of the way up or nearly maxed. That doesn't leave much of a wiggle room.
[12:25]	Tiberious Neruda 	yeah. SL's always had screwed scales
[12:25]	Tiberious Neruda 	male avs standing 7'+ on average
[12:25]	Motor Loon 	Personally, I think everyone's too damn short
[12:25]	Heidenstam (sveid.heidenstam)	I'd say as a general project LL might wish to look into ways to reduce the need for content eating more LI than necessary. The camera is an issue in that regard.
[12:25]	Heidenstam (sveid.heidenstam)	As long as mesh continues to increase in LI with size.
[12:26]	Nyx Linden 	but for the height reporting problem, I hope to look into at some time in the coming future
[12:26]	Rusalka Writer 	Agreed.
[12:26]	Rusalka Writer 	Mesh should improve some of the largest builds, but the L$ issue is a deal-breaker at times.
[12:27]	Nyx Linden 	I'll pass on the avatar sizing feedback
[12:27]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "Is it Bug or feature that the preview of mesh upload don't show he physics hulls in individual colors anymore, also can you make the window resizable again, its like looking through a keyhole. Cale Flanagan 20:12 MESZ today"
[12:28]	Cale Flanagan 	i still use an old dev viewer to get colors there
[12:28]	Motor Loon 	Firestorm fixed that and it's wonderful ¬∞Õú¬∞
[12:28]	Motor Loon 	well, not totally - but atleast it's not white on white anymore
[12:28]	Prep Linden 	Yeah - that's a bug.
[12:29]	Cale Flanagan 	do you need a jira for that or may tehre is already one, dont know
[12:29]	Prep Linden 	You need to file one - as I haven't seen a report for this issue as of late.
[12:29]	Drongle McMahon 	It would be very good to have that fixed.
[12:29]	Cale Flanagan 	*maybe there
[12:29]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	I can't upload mesh with the Dev Viewer... I'm using the Release viewer for my uploads.
[12:29]	Tiberious Neruda 	yeah. I rally don't know why that was even changed in the first place
[12:30]	Cale Flanagan 	mybe ist not THE dev viewer, I have, its a mesh dev viewer, can give you excat build later
[12:30]	Tiberious Neruda 	seems like a ridiculous thing to mess with, for what seems to be no reason at all
[12:30]	Prep Linden 	cale: that would help, thx.
[12:30]	Cale Flanagan 	its very good to better see in what hulls all the stiuff gut broken
[12:31]	Cale Flanagan 	ok, then i make you a new BUG for that
[12:31]	Prep Linden 	As for the window resizing. you can file a jira, but I'm honestly not sure on how high of a priority that would be.
[12:31]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Second Life 3.4.2 (264693) crashes on Calc. Release uploads the exact same files.
[12:31]	Cale Flanagan 	for me its way to small if you have a 52m hill with 182 hulls
[12:32]	Nyx Linden 	is there a JIRA on that Nal?
[12:32]	Bazz Fazz (vir.linden) 	Would help to have specific test file(s) for that.
[12:32]	Drongle McMahon 	Uh. For hills, you are better off using triangles.
[12:33]	Cale Flanagan 	i used a mix of quads and selfmade hulls for "analyze" only
[12:33]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Nyx, I haven't tested enought to figure out the repro, so I haven't file4d.
[12:34]	Drongle McMahon 	I mean triangle-based shape .... no Analyze
[12:35]	Nyx Linden 	Nal, if you could file a bug with the mesh that you were seeing the crash on, it would be greatly appreciated :)
[12:35]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	OK, later today.
[12:35]	Nyx Linden 	thanks!
[12:36]	Nyx Linden 	that's the last of our listed topics, do we have anything else for today?
[12:36]	Cale Flanagan 	there are rooms in it, last test with no anylyze wasnt so good, but can try
[12:37]	Theresa Tennyson 	Do you still need outfits on Aditi?
[12:37]	Nyx Linden 	I do still need avatars! you can send them to me on agni, aditi, or marketplace links, etc
[12:38]	Theresa Tennyson 	Just username and outfit name in a notecard?
[12:38]	Nyx Linden 	that would work - images of what the outfit should look like would be helpful too
[12:39]	Theresa Tennyson 	So they CAN be from our Agni accounts too?
[12:39]	Nyx Linden 	yep, if you're giving them via username and outfit name, please specify grid as well. either is fine.
[12:40]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	I published that request last week. Did you get any response?
[12:40]	Tiberious Neruda 	this for the deformer?
[12:40]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	No...
[12:40]	Nyx Linden 	this is for testing server side texture baking
[12:40]	Theresa Tennyson 	It's for the De-Ruth-erator.
[12:41]	Tiberious Neruda 	oh
[12:41]	Nyx Linden 	Nal: I think I missed that request - could you resend it? (if you're using email, its Nyx AT Lindenlab.com)
[12:41]	Motor Loon 	= looking for outfits which has heavy usage of layered textures
[12:41]	Tiberious Neruda 	AKA death of temp textures... gonna miss those
[12:41]	Nyx Linden 	layered textures, flared pants, alpha and tattoos, etc
[12:42]	Rusalka Writer 	Flared pants. All this work to bring us to flared pants.
[12:42]	CrystalShard Foo 	Temporary textures were the best thing to ever happen to me :(
[12:42]	Motor Loon 	oh this gonna break temp textures?
[12:42]	Tiberious Neruda 	well yeah
[12:42]	Theresa Tennyson 	Oh, could you FIX flared pants while you're at it?
[12:42]	Rusalka Writer 	Hem.
[12:42]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Nyx: ...ummm... let ne try again, I wasn't clear. I blogoged you request. I was curious if you got any outfits submitted?
[12:43]	Nyx Linden 	Theresa - hope to fix them! let me know if you have an outfit that shows them broken :)
[12:43]	Nyx Linden 	Nal - ah ok, I have not received any yet.
[12:43]	Motor Loon 	May wanna give us an alternate way to get temp textures then... that's HIGHLY used by people... they will whine badly
[12:43]	Tiberious Neruda 	way I hear it, temp textures kinda abuses a loophole in the current baking process. I mean, we'll still have that 'local' thing or whatever the deuce it is, but it can't actually be seen by anyone else
[12:43]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	OK, I'll try a separate article and post some forum topics.
[12:44]	Nyx Linden 	local preview of texutres should be quite handy, and there is always the beta grid for works in progress :)
[12:44]	Tiberious Neruda 	local is fine if you only want to see it yourself
[12:45]	Motor Loon 	you mean you currently can upload temp textures that others can see?!
[12:45]	Tiberious Neruda 	yeah
[12:45]	Motor Loon 	aah... no problem breaking that
[12:45]	Tiberious Neruda 	there's uses for even that
[12:46]	Tiberious Neruda 	if you're putting together, say, a skin for someone... and you need their input, they need to be able to see it
[12:46]	CrystalShard Foo 	Beta grid means having to drag my party of makers into another grid to show them a texture on an object :p
[12:46]	Tiberious Neruda 	exactly
[12:46]	Motor Loon 	I was talking about the temp textures that just yourself can see... that can be very useful and save you having to log into betagrid/update your inventory there etc.
[12:46]	CrystalShard Foo 	I work with groups of creators a lot, and temporary textures help us figure out the creation process as we go. It's a pretty nifty co-op creation tool - which is what SL is all about, after all.
[12:46]	CrystalShard Foo 	Co-op creation.
[12:47]	Tiberious Neruda 	oh. That's just local preview, isn't it?
[12:47]	Motor Loon 	I think it's fair though that you PAY for an upload if you want other to be able to see it
[12:47]	CrystalShard Foo 	"temporary textures" can be seen by all.
[12:47]	CrystalShard Foo 	Motor - the whole idea behind TEmporary Textures is that they are not saved. They also cannot leave the sim.
[12:47]	CrystalShard Foo 	They vanish after N time.
[12:47]	CrystalShard Foo 	This justify the free upload.
[12:47]	Tiberious Neruda 	well, a temp texture does clear itself after some time
[12:47]	Motor Loon 	I didnt know that... and I really consider that a bad hack - I have no problem with that being broken
[12:48]	Lares Carter 	I make custom paintjobs for vehicles and temporary textures are perfect to give the customer a preview and to make adjustments. Won't really work out to tell them to log into the beta grid. :/
[12:48]	CrystalShard Foo 	Don't look at it as a hack, look at it as a feature. The ability to put up a temporary upload that does not take space on the asset server, is automatically removed, and cannot leave the sim - is this a bad feature to get rid of?
[12:48]	Heidenstam (sveid.heidenstam)	It's extremely useful for texture artists.
[12:48]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Sounds handy to me...
[12:49]	Motor Loon 	just pay that 10 l$...
[12:49]	Rusalka Writer 	I'd like temporary lots of stuff.
[12:49]	Nyx Linden 	the ability is a good feature request. The current implementation is a hack. Our current texture upload pipeline is part of the reason why avatar appearance is so unreliable
[12:49]	Tiberious Neruda 	and then pay it again, and again, and again, until it's -finally- finalized
[12:49]	CrystalShard Foo 	Motor, do you realize that Temporary Uploads means you can upload over 50 textures in a single hour while working woth other people? Would you pay 500 for a work session for textures that should not remain?
[12:49]	Rusalka Writer 	Story of my sculpty business.
[12:49]	Motor Loon 	I do that...and I dont complain about it
[12:50]	CrystalShard Foo 	Then I guess we'll just have to agree that you are a pretty rich exception :)
[12:50]	Tiberious Neruda 	so how do you recoup your costs?
[12:50]	Drongle McMahon 	I want local meshes ... that are connected to a Blender plugin.
[12:50]	Nyx Linden 	local meshes would be pretty awesome :)
[12:50]	Tiberious Neruda 	yeah. I'd love a local preview for mesh too
[12:50]	Motor Loon 	omg that sounds superhacky ¬∞Õú¬∞
[12:50]	Cale Flanagan 	very big preview window:)
[12:51]	Tiberious Neruda 	yeah
[12:51]	Nyx Linden 	ok if there are no other last minute topics we can wrap up for the day
[12:51]	Rusalka Writer 	Pony.
[12:52]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Thx Nyx and Lindens
[12:52]	Rusalka Writer 	Indeed.
[12:52]	Tiberious Neruda 	Nyx... do you think it would be possible to have the mesh uploader be able to 'upload' to a local preview directory?
[12:52]	Nyx Linden 	Thanks everyone for coming out, see everyone next week!
[12:52]	Nyx Linden 	Tiberious - yes, but it gets more complicated after that part :)
[12:52]	Tiberious Neruda 	or would that cause problems by 'exposing' the LL mesh format?
[12:52]	Cale Flanagan 	thanks, bye
[12:52]	Rusalka Writer 	Aloha!
[12:52]	CrystalShard Foo 	I've just realized
[12:53]	CrystalShard Foo 	Local textures - you will not be able to bake those into avatar textures, right?
[12:53]	Tiberious Neruda 	...perhaps use a link to the location for inventory?
[12:53]	CrystalShard Foo 	It only works right now due to local baking process
[12:53]	Nyx Linden 	local baking will still be used for editing clothing
[12:53]	Tiberious Neruda 	so it can be attached/'rezzed' in-world
[12:53]	CrystalShard Foo 	Hm
[12:53]	Heidenstam (sveid.heidenstam)	I was wondering about that.
[12:54]	Nyx Linden 	but textures will have to be uploaded for the clothes to be valid when you give them to someone else
[12:55]	CrystalShard Foo 	To be given, sure. Question is if others can see them while working on them
[12:55]	Nyx Linden 	local textures are local to your machine only, so no.
[12:55]	CrystalShard Foo 	I guess this bothers me since this SL's creation process seem to be slowly moving away from co-op work
[12:56]	Rusalka Writer 	You just can't do it for free on the main grid in this instance.
[12:56]	Motor Loon 	you're forgetting its a hack - it was never designed for co-op
[12:56]	CrystalShard Foo 	Local Textures are not a hack.
[12:56]	Tiberious Neruda 	a hack maybe, but a useful one
[12:56]	Tiberious Neruda 	...look at invisiprims, FFS
[12:56]	CrystalShard Foo 	And Temporary Textures, despite being a hack, have been around for years long enough to prove themselves useful
[12:57]	CrystalShard Foo 	Invisiprims were neat while they were necessary, yeah
[12:57]	Nyx Linden 	have a great week everyone, and send me avatars! :)
[12:57]	CrystalShard Foo 	Bai
[12:57]	Rusalka Writer 	Aloha!
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