User Experience Interest Group/Transcripts/2009-04-30

== Topic & Summary ==
User Experience Interest Group Discussion for April 30, 2009.
Topic: Camera.
No summary is yet available for this meeting. Please edit this page to add one.
=== Links ===
== Transcript ==
[15:10]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Let's get started, shall we? Today's topic is the Camera.
[15:10]	Charlette Proto: 	go ahead
[15:10]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hah, yeah, no one in Europe speaks English, right? ;P
[15:10]	Aimee Trescothick: 	erm
[15:11]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehe
[15:11]	Aimee Trescothick: 	I would argue no one OUTSIDE Europe speaks English :D
[15:11]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Woohoo, cameras!
[15:11]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Good point! Anyway, cameras!
[15:11]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Who wants a "Leave My Camera Alone!", t-shirt?
[15:11]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	I use the spacenav 3D joystick. Aimee patches finaally got merged. They are in RC0 now.
[15:11]	Jacek Antonelli: 	This was a request by Morgaine, so any specific bits you wanted to talk about, Morgaine?
[15:12]	Aimee Trescothick somersaults and takes a bow 	Aimee Trescothick somersaults and takes a bow
[15:12]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Well, several things. Some are just remedial ... ie. finally fixing things that LL never got right, such as unwanted camera movements.
[15:12]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	The one camer issues should have been fixed. The pogoing when close to a invisiable wall.
[15:12]	Aimee Trescothick: 	I would like to point out I cannot be held responsinle for increased numbers of Space Navigator related injuries though
[15:12]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehe
[15:13]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	You mean when trying to fly?
[15:13]	Aimee Trescothick: 	fly, drive, run :D
[15:13]	Morgaine Dinova: 	For years we battled to stop the free camera movement in the viewer, such as on entering/exiting appearances, or when editing etc
[15:13]	Techwolf Lupindo grins 	Techwolf Lupindo grins
[15:13]	Dirk Talamasca: 	Changing the camera is so tough because its use becomes second nature when you are building, taking photos etc.. Its something you don't want to think about one you have mastered it so I pretty much have to vote for Morgaine's shirt to become a fashion trend throughout SL.
[15:13]	Charlette Proto: 	yeah some of this really doesn't follow the preferences settings (ignores)
[15:14]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Morgain shirt?
[15:14]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yeah, there's a ton of places whenre it happens ... changes in the environment just affect the camera position. I pity machinima cameramen, they must be pulling their hair out daily
[15:14]	Jacek Antonelli tries 	Jacek Antonelli tries
[15:14]	Dirk Talamasca: 	Yeah her T-Shirt that says Leave My Camera Alone
[15:14]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	My flycam never changes position on changes to the envorment.
[15:14]	Charlette Proto: 	Dirk but why would the useless moves be necessary especially sinve the behaviour seems to change
[15:15]	Charlette Proto: 	ah is that the one Star made
[15:15]	Squirrel Wood: 	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8uV25n8arc&fmt=22
[15:15]	Morgaine Dinova: 	We had a whole movement around it on the SL forums :P
[15:15]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah, turning off the "Automatic Appearance Camera Movement" doesn't really turn it off!
[15:15]	Morgaine Dinova gave you LEAVE MY CAMERA ALONE!. 	Morgaine Dinova gave you LEAVE MY CAMERA ALONE!.
[15:15]	Dirk Talamasca: 	Thanks Morgaine!
[15:15]	Charlette Proto: 	exactly
[15:15]	Dirk Talamasca: 	Right
[15:15]	Morgaine Dinova: 	LL finally added those two buttons that supposdly stop free camera movement .... and they still don't
[15:16]	Jacek Antonelli: 	And I'm not fond of how it keeps moving back and forth when I move the appearance window. It's trying to be too helpful for my tastes
[15:16]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yep
[15:16]	Techwolf Lupindo looks at the video..."Yey, rcfm. :--)	Techwolf Lupindo looks at the video..."Yey, rcfm. :--)
[15:16]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Like SL's own little Clippy
[15:16]	Jacek Antonelli: 	"Hi, I see you're trying to change your shirt. Want me to move the camera around randomly?"
[15:16]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Exactly Jacek ... it's trying to be more clever than the user, and it's failing.
[15:16]	Squirrel Wood: 	that video shows an annoying bug
[15:16]	Charlette Proto: 	BTW Dirk you will find all of us here are as comfy with the Alt Ctrl etc camera, just don't feel as elated at doing it when there is no need to
[15:16]	Dirk Talamasca: 	Yeah and I am not real fond of being tossed under a spotlight when I go into appearance either
[15:17]	Charlette Proto: 	funny thing is when noobs do it and you bump then because they have no idea how to get it back
[15:17]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Squirrel -- excellent video.
[15:18]	Jacek Antonelli: 	(For that matter, I wish it wouldn't unsit me when I change appearance, but that's a separate topic)
[15:18]	Squirrel Wood: 	what exactly is the difference between focussing on a prim or on the ground ?
[15:18]	Charlette Proto: 	and noobs really don't understand the camera in Appearance, heard that one a million times
[15:18]	Morgaine Dinova: 	What you're seeing in that video is the coupling between camera viewpoint and "what's going on in the scene" (as a general statement) --- it happens in countless cases.
[15:18]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I'm not sure on the technical side, Squirrel.
[15:19]	Charlette Proto: 	focusing on prim you look around it
[15:19]	Dirk Talamasca: 	I dunno but focusing on a persons face now throws the camera into their chest in 1.23...
[15:19]	Charlette Proto: 	and unlike the avie you get real zoom at it
[15:19]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Ok. This one excapes me. What is the problem with the camera in apearence mode?
[15:19]	Squirrel Wood: 	1.23 fails to work for me... because of the , . bug.
[15:19]	Charlette Proto: 	yah there is something odd in 1.23 camera
[15:19]	Charlette Proto: 	what bug?
[15:20]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, so. Camera moving when you don't want it to is a big annoyance. What others?
[15:20]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Techwolf: several problems. First, you can no longer set an arbitrary camera pivot, it only allows the av to be pivot
[15:20]	Squirrel Wood: 	Login Crash: Default French/European OS Settings Result in Failure to Parse avatar_skeleton.xml
[15:20]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	OK. I"me so used to flycam that some annoyionus are imume to me.
[15:20]	Dirk Talamasca: 	Also in 1.23 changing the view "Angle" doesn't change the angle at all but appears to work the same as follow distance
[15:21]	Charlette Proto: 	ah poor you Squirrel
[15:21]	Squirrel Wood: 	he use of commas to delimit numerical values in European and Windows OSs renders avatar_skeleton.xml unreadable and causes a crash during login.
[15:21]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Techwolf: 2nd problem: if you move windows around on the display, it moves the av around to compensate --- so if you were trying to move a window out of the way to get a better view of the av#], it undoes your efforts.
[15:21]	Garmin Kawaguichi: 	Changing Angle moves flex as if there is a strong wind
[15:21]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	I think the view angle in 1.23 is actually the FoV
[15:22]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	When the camera doenn't work for me, I hit the button on the joystick to put in flycam mode and that fixes it for me at least. But I bet it a huge isssues with non-joystick users.
[15:22]	Dirk Talamasca: 	Ohhh Yes Morgaine.. I hate that
[15:22]	Squirrel Wood: 	So basically the camera is totally fucked up in 1.23
[15:22]	(A vampire player shows up and starts biting people.) 	(A vampire player shows up and starts biting people.)
[15:22]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Any admins here?
[15:22]	Dirk Talamasca: 	I would say you could use that term only if you wanted to get technical about it, Squirrel.
[15:23]	Jacek Antonelli says yay for mute 	Jacek Antonelli says yay for mute
[15:23]	Charlette Proto: 	are French only good at being a pain
[15:23]	Squirrel Wood: 	Takao, please take off your spamtachment
[15:23]	Takao Moriguchi: 	this is not spam..so call admins if you want
[15:23]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Takao is muted
[15:23]	Takao Moriguchi: 	is a legal game of SL
[15:23]	Aimee Trescothick: 	.. which spams chat
[15:24]	Takao Moriguchi: 	chat is not yours...THIS IS A LEGAL GAME OF SL
[15:24]	Charlette Proto: 	good Takao,poofed
[15:24]	Jacek Antonelli: 	The 1.23 release notes say they fixed the problem of alt-camming into the inside face of prims?
[15:24]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Is that so?
[15:24]	Dirk Talamasca: 	ALL YOUR CHAT ARE BELONG TO US
[15:24]	Aimee Trescothick: 	lol Dirk
[15:25]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Well either the camera in LL's viewer is totally screwed, or else there are dozens of calls to llCamera:messUpUserDisplay() ...
[15:25]	Aimee Trescothick: 	best of luck with the weapons Tacky they won't work
[15:26]	Squirrel Wood: 	Congrats. Consider yourself abuse reported.
[15:26]	Charlette Proto: 	can we turn off rezzing here
[15:26]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Afraid not
[15:27]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	I don't see any change to the inside-of=prim thing
[15:27]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hrmm, okay. Thanks for testing, Thickbrick
[15:27]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	maybe it's less violent
[15:27]	Squirrel Wood: 	there we go. AR sent.
[15:27]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Let's shift away from camera annoyances for a while. Is there anything the Camera *doesn't* do that you wish it could? New features or behaviors?
[15:28]	Charlette Proto: 	what a fool, wish the age was really requiring a proof at signup
[15:28]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Cool, positive wishlist now
[15:28]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Maybe something to help photography or building?
[15:28]	Dirk Talamasca: 	I'd like to be able to LOCK the camera at an angle and then be able to zoom in and out and perhaps remember different locked positions
[15:29]	Jacek Antonelli: 	That's an interesting idea, Dirk. Lock it relative to your avatar, or an object? Or..?
[15:29]	Squirrel Wood: 	Another fail spampire
[15:29]	Dirk Talamasca: 	Either or both.. Would be really great for machinima...
[15:30]	Charlette Proto: 	multiple cameras (3D render windows) is really my dream, as well as plan and elevation views
[15:30]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I would like the offset vector from the camera pivot to be lockable when required, instead of automatically falling into the conventional trailing mode.
[15:30]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	I thought having hotkeys for aligning the camera with the prim being edited (like in Blender, for example) would be really helpful, but after playing with it a bit, I now think it's pointless without orthographic view.
[15:30]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Charlette++
[15:30]	Squirrel Wood: 	my wishlist is short. A camera that does what you tell it to do. No more, No less. ^^
[15:30]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Haha
[15:30]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehe
[15:30]	Charlette Proto: 	builders would love multiple views so would clothes designers
[15:31]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	i have a half-finished patch for that somewhere
[15:31]	Jacek Antonelli: 	How about being able to accurately edit your camera position and angle? Useful? Not useful?
[15:31]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Did anyone here play EQ1? We had 5 different camera modes there, just toggled between them with F9.
[15:31]	Charlette Proto: 	multiple views Thick?
[15:31]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	Charlette, oops, no. I meant align to prim axes
[15:32]	Charlette Proto: 	I assume that it isn't trivial to introduce more render windows since everything is inside one atm
[15:32]	Charlette Proto: 	ah sry
[15:32]	Charlette Proto: 	I nearly sqealed
[15:32]	Morgaine Dinova: 	The "fix camera offset vector from pivot" mode is exactly like have a camer operator on a dolly, excellent for catwalk photographers.
[15:33]	Dirk Talamasca: 	Very useful.. I'd also like to be able to strafe the camera with the arrow buttons rather than simply orbit.. pehaps by holding down ctrl cmd etc
[15:33]	Charlette Proto: 	you can set the viewpoints in Debug Morgaine but that is hardly a UI feature
[15:33]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Dirk: Ctrl-Alt-Shift Arrows
[15:33]	Squirrel Wood: 	different render windows... try thinking with portals ^^
[15:34]	Dirk Talamasca: 	Man that is too damn many buttons
[15:34]	Dirk Talamasca: 	LOLOL
[15:34]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehe
[15:34]	Dirk Talamasca: 	But it works thanks
[15:34]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	I'me spoiled by flycam...hehe
[15:34]	Dirk Talamasca: 	That will greatly limit my coffee intake I see
[15:35]	Jacek Antonelli: 	That brings up another point -- the camera is really complex, and it's difficult to learn and to teach to new users.
[15:35]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Any ideas on how that could be improved? Is it just a matter of better tutorials, or does the way we interact with the camera need to be given some more thought?
[15:35]	Charlette Proto: 	simpler way to introduce more Meta key functions into camera control is to use Shift Ctr and Shift Alt cominations rather than 3 keys
[15:36]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Charlette ... which Advanced menu is that on?
[15:37]	Morgaine Dinova: 	(vierwpoints)
[15:37]	Charlette Proto: 	easy to teach 3D users (except for Maya 3rd button habit) but can't see how it could be simpler than it is
[15:38]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hi GC :-)
[15:38]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Heya Garn, welcome
[15:38]	Garn Conover makes pretty shadowz 	Garn Conover makes pretty shadowz
[15:38]	Garmin Kawaguichi: 	:)
[15:38]	Charlette Proto: 	the Debug settings have heaps of detais in the UI Morgaine
[15:38]	Garn Conover: 	my reminder os not online today :(
[15:38]	Squirrel Wood: 	Garn we had a snack for you not ten minutes ago :p
[15:39]	Garn Conover: 	aww! was he new?
[15:39]	Squirrel Wood: 	noob spampire :p
[15:39]	Garn Conover: 	damn!
[15:39]	Garn Conover: 	those taste good!
[15:39]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehe
[15:39]	Garn Conover: 	so whast the topic?
[15:40]	Jacek Antonelli: 	We're talking about the SL Camera
[15:40]	Squirrel Wood: 	camera and your issues with it ?
[15:40]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Anything that you find annoying, or anything you wish it could do?
[15:40]	Garn Conover: 	no more local light flicker yeay!
[15:40]	Garn Conover: 	i love my spacenav :)
[15:40]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehe
[15:41]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	YES, that flicker on flycam in very annoying.
[15:41]	Garn Conover: 	come on how often can u look upside down and NOT get dizzy?
[15:41]	Garn Conover: 	Tech is fixed on RC
[15:41]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	I"me baout to test RC0, got my ebuild almost done.
[15:42]	Garn Conover: 	there are some skin issues i hear
[15:42]	Squirrel Wood: 	keep in mind that rc0 may have problems
[15:42]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Sad thing is one usefull patch was broken by RC0. avtar_list :-(
[15:42]	Squirrel Wood: 	The use of commas to delimit numerical values in European and Windows OSs renders avatar_skeleton.xml unreadable and causes a crash during login.
[15:42]	Charlette Proto: 	one thing I find impractical in the camera control is the coarsness of the movements when you move the cursor away from the centre, it should afford smoother control in the middle of the screen with increasing efect as you move away from it
[15:42]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I think there should be more entries in Debug Settings
[15:42]	Garn Conover: 	yea ive already filed my first jira
[15:42]	Garn Conover: 	debug is a hidden gem lol
[15:42]	Morgaine Dinova: 	lol
[15:43]	Morgaine Dinova: 	It's seriously impossible to use, except as a source of magic :P
[15:43]	Charlette Proto: 	what would you add Morgaine hehe
[15:43]	Garn Conover: 	any1 read the release notes for the rc? i guess they admited on it that there was an issue with windlight not disablign fully.. no wonder ppl had so many probs
[15:43]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Charlette: which specific Debug Setting did something useful with camera viewpoints?
[15:43]	Charlette Proto: 	add friend perhaps
[15:43]	Charlette Proto: 	let me see
[15:43]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Charlette: nah, that was a joke :-)
[15:44]	Squirrel Wood: 	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Second_Life_Release_Candidate/1.23
[15:44]	Charlette Proto: 	CameraOffset**** (build default etc)
[15:44]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Ty
[15:45]	Garn Conover: 	yea ive got a hud that screws my camera offset.. damn thing is no mod so i cant kill it :(
[15:45]	Garn Conover woofs and take treat ^_^ 	Garn Conover woofs and take treat ^_^
[15:45]	Charlette Proto: 	all give XYZ offsets from the avie or object followed
[15:46]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Does anyone here regularly use the Camera Controls window?
[15:46]	Jacek Antonelli: 	(View > Camera Controls)
[15:46]	Aimee Trescothick: 	there's a camera controls window? :P
[15:46]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	I did at first. Then got the spacenav.
[15:46]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehehe
[15:46]	yonatan Whiteberry: 	i use ALT and CTRL to move freely around
[15:46]	Charlette Proto: 	never because it is too coarse Jacek
[15:46]	Garn Conover: 	i closed those
[15:47]	Dirk Talamasca: 	I use it to fine tune but never otherwise.. If I am doing a close up on a face or a small object it is useful
[15:47]	Jacek Antonelli: 	If it was less coarse would you use it, Charlette?
[15:47]	Charlette Proto: 	yonatan but the avie looks at the cursor so sometimes it would be handy to use the Camera Controls floater to take pics
[15:47]	Charlette Proto: 	yeah when taking pics for sure Jacek
[15:48]	Charlette Proto: 	I actually have the Camera Controls onscreen for that purpose since the gaze may be important in pics and I'm sooo vain
[15:48]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehe
[15:49]	Charlette Proto: 	I'd like it the middle of arrows gave fine control and the ends coarser
[15:49]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Yea, this so annoying, when taking pics, the avatar looks off in randon directions...
[15:49]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	Google Earth has a similar widget, but way more usable, It hink
[15:49]	Charlette Proto: 	see Tech has the same prob so I'm not the ony vain avie
[15:50]	Charlette Proto: 	true but GE mouse control is poor
[15:50]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	TRick I found is to tell the subject to go into mouse look and look "here" .
[15:50]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I think most photographers struggle with eyes looking the wrong place
[15:50]	yonatan Whiteberry: 	sl buttons move around feature is wat beeter tehn GE
[15:50]	yonatan Whiteberry: 	way
[15:50]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I'm generally happy with the Ctrl and Alt modifiers to mouse camera navigation .... except that I would like to LOCK a modifer in so I don't have to keep the key(s) pressed.
[15:51]	Charlette Proto: 	yep Jacek especially if you are doing documentary pics of oneself
[15:51]	Dirk Talamasca: 	I have to say it is useful for editing very large parcels of land.. For instance, if I Alt Zoom away from an object I can orbit but the orbit is a bit free form.. The controls let me get at a corner of a parcel that may be some distance away more accurately
[15:51]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	yonatan, I was talking about the View -> Camera Controls windows
[15:51]	Charlette Proto: 	what is usefull Dirk?
[15:52]	yonatan Whiteberry: 	yea
[15:52]	yonatan Whiteberry: 	i dont think any one usess them
[15:52]	yonatan Whiteberry: 	besides noobs
[15:52]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Good point --- need to be able to lock eyes separately from camera pivot selection. 99% of the time, the pivot in the wrong place for eyes to focus.
[15:52]	Charlette Proto: 	I do and I'm a lot older than my avie yonatan
[15:52]	yonatan Whiteberry: 	its amatter of what you do in sl
[15:53]	Jacek Antonelli: 	But you don't rely on them, Charlette
[15:53]	yonatan Whiteberry: 	lets say you sell pic for aliving ....maybe its agreat tool for you
[15:53]	Charlette Proto: 	no as i said I only use it to make up for the eye gaze
[15:53]	yonatan Whiteberry: 	but not for all teh rest
[15:53]	yonatan Whiteberry: 	oh
[15:53]	yonatan Whiteberry: 	ok
[15:54]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Well sure, "One Shoe Fits All" is a broken concept :-)
[15:54]	yonatan Whiteberry: 	hehe lol
[15:54]	Jacek Antonelli: 	There you go... new feature request: Replace camera controls with a shoe
[15:54]	Charlette Proto: 	you have a point yonatan? my point is that eyegaze needs to be free from the camera angle not that the floater should stay
[15:54]	Dirk Talamasca: 	Editing large parcels of land... Say I need to slice out a quater sim or half a sim and I want to make water borders between those slices.. I can angle my camera more accurately by giving the camera controls a click or two..
[15:54]	yonatan Whiteberry: 	over time i lerned how to free my camera restraintes
[15:55]	yonatan Whiteberry: 	i understand
[15:55]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Oh, I have some news to report from the Open Source meeting we were just at!
[15:55]	Charlette Proto: 	go ahead
[15:55]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Charlette: I think yonatan was saying that a lot of newbies rely on camera controls to change their camera, where most experienced users primarily use alt-cam
[15:55]	Morgaine Dinova: 	LL is looking at client-side scripting, and they're heading towards our external plugin model! :-))))))))
[15:55]	yonatan Whiteberry: 	yea
[15:55]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Woot \o/
[15:56]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	heading as in "multi-year process," to quote Q
[15:56]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I wish I had had more time to work on designing that over the past months. Stupid gstreamer.
[15:56]	Charlette Proto: 	yep I understan that but a lot of advanced users like me can't be arsed with building and for example make art with Second Life™
[15:56]	Jacek Antonelli wants the 4 months of her life back 	Jacek Antonelli wants the 4 months of her life back
[15:57]	yonatan Whiteberry: 	i want 2
[15:57]	yonatan Whiteberry: 	years
[15:57]	Morgaine Dinova: 	And they are aware of the problem of having a decent event-based comms structure inside the viewer to support it, so the notifications changes they're making are intended to dovetail into the requirement for a general event comms system (my most favourable reading of it, but Q was pretty clear).