Beta Server Office Hours/Minutes/2013-10-24

[2013/10/24 15:00] Margithe: Hello Maestro
[2013/10/24 15:01] Maestro Linden: hi guys
[2013/10/24 15:01] Rex Cronon: u r welcome
[2013/10/24 15:01] Jenna Felton: Hi Maestro
[2013/10/24 15:01] Rex Cronon: hi maestro
[2013/10/24 15:01] Whirly Fizzle: Heya maestro
[2013/10/24 15:01] Zenith Subchair final p: whispers: Hi Baker Linden! Touch me for Menu. Say /1a to Adjust.
[2013/10/24 15:01] Yuzuru Jewell: Hello, Maestro.
[2013/10/24 15:02] Rex Cronon: lol baker. ur getting a massage:)
[2013/10/24 15:02] Baker Linden: yeap. Got one of these in my main meeting area too
[2013/10/24 15:02] Baker Linden: lol
[2013/10/24 15:02] Yuzuru Jewell: Hello, Caleb.
[2013/10/24 15:02] Caleb Linden: hiya
[2013/10/24 15:02] Inara Breen: Hi, all
[2013/10/24 15:03] Rex Cronon: hi caleb
[2013/10/24 15:03] Rex Cronon: hi inara
[2013/10/24 15:03] Jenna Felton: Maestro, I must apologize for the claim, the door problem returns. As i tested later, this problem about doors that not close when you not watch them, It was in Firestorm but not in the official LL Viewer. And for Firestorm there is even a Jira about. So i was wrong about the claim
[2013/10/24 15:03] Maestro Linden: oh
[2013/10/24 15:04] Maestro Linden: that's interesting
[2013/10/24 15:04] Whirly Fizzle: OOOh thats fixed for next release :D (In a couple more days)
[2013/10/24 15:04] Lucia Nightfire: telegraph
[2013/10/24 15:04] Jenna Felton: this is that Jira: http://jira.phoenixviewer.com/browse/FIRE-8279
[2013/10/24 15:04] Maestro Linden: Was it a performance optimization gone wrong?
[2013/10/24 15:05] Whirly Fizzle: No. We hadnt merged MAINT-1950 fix in lol
[2013/10/24 15:05] Maestro Linden: cool
[2013/10/24 15:05] rcdsQueChatLog: Rex Cronon, you can read the log here:
 http://rcds.nfshost.com/ques_view_chatLog.php?queOwner=llsl%3ARex+Cronon&queName=chatLog&pg=1
[2013/10/24 15:06] Rex Cronon: .
[2013/10/24 15:06] Maestro Linden: Okay, let's get started on the agenda: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Server_Beta_User_Group#Agenda
[2013/10/24 15:06] Maestro Linden: I don't have much exciting news in the way of updates;
[2013/10/24 15:06] Margithe: I got recently problems with things not moving when i move them (just their highlight), until i release them from Build mode. Is that normal??
[2013/10/24 15:07] Maestro Linden: the only movement in server land this week is that the main channel got the version that was on the RC channels
[2013/10/24 15:07] Jenna Felton: so every sim in SL has the same version?
[2013/10/24 15:08] Maestro Linden: this included a few miscellaneous fixes, which I talked about last week: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Second_Life_Server/13#13.10.15.282406
[2013/10/24 15:08] Maestro Linden: that's right, Jenna
[2013/10/24 15:08] Jenna Felton: that is somehow cool
[2013/10/24 15:08] arton Rotaru: or it indicates slower developemnt :p
[2013/10/24 15:08] Lucia Nightfire: heh
[2013/10/24 15:09] Whirly Fizzle: Are non-viewer-interesting viewers unaffected by "Fixed a performance issue with avatar loading speed in the experimental 'viewer-interesting' viewer "?
[2013/10/24 15:09] Simon Linden: yes, they should be unaffected
[2013/10/24 15:10] Ardy Lay: (Teleporting with viewer-interesting is visually ... interesting.)
[2013/10/24 15:10] Maestro Linden: the bug was about avatars not loading for ~70 seconds when you visit an area with 10 or so avatars nearby
[2013/10/24 15:10] Whirly Fizzle: ahhhh
[2013/10/24 15:11] Maestro Linden: and by 'not loading', you wouldn't even see name tags
[2013/10/24 15:11] Simon Linden: I think the problem was when those viewers used new methods to download or check the cache state of some data ... it would over-load the network and thus the AV updates were really slow
[2013/10/24 15:11] Jenna Felton: I do experience this bug since ages when i visit a club. but not was in one this week yet
[2013/10/24 15:12] Simon Linden: Since the current viewer doesn't do that, they don't have the bug
[2013/10/24 15:12] Simon Linden: clubs and large crowds are always a problem because when you arrive you just get a ton of data to fetch and load
[2013/10/24 15:13] Jenna Felton: i.e. to identify the bug you must visit the place in 5 minutes after leaving so the sim objects are in cache stil?
[2013/10/24 15:14] Maestro Linden: the repro steps for the bug that was fixed described visiting the place with a cleared viewer cache
[2013/10/24 15:15] Maestro Linden: so the viewer would be downloading all object and texture data in the sim
[2013/10/24 15:15] Simon Linden: I don't remember the exact technique, Jenna ... I think the new viewer may have different caching anyway
[2013/10/24 15:15] Jenna Felton: ok
[2013/10/24 15:15] Theresa Tennyson: Is there a link for the sekrit interest list viewer?
[2013/10/24 15:16] Maestro Linden: I don't have much else in the way of updates.. we have a minor maintenance release coming up, which has a few miscellaneous crash fixes
[2013/10/24 15:16] Maestro Linden: Caleb and I are banging on Baker's group ban work
[2013/10/24 15:17] Kennylex Luckless: I found a ghosting bug before, but I do not if it is a jira about it or to take it here.
[2013/10/24 15:17] Whirly Fizzle: I havnt been able to find an automated build for it Jenna. I had to compile it. Repo is here if you want to try https://bitbucket.org/lindenlab/viewer-interesting
[2013/10/24 15:18] Jenna Felton: thank you Whirly :)
[2013/10/24 15:18] Simon Linden: it hasn't been released yet ... I _believe_ it will be a project viewer first, then likely a pre-release one
[2013/10/24 15:18] Whirly Fizzle: errr theresa sorry
[2013/10/24 15:18] Ardy Lay: My guess is they are not ready for crowd-sourced bug reports on that one yet.
[2013/10/24 15:18] Maestro Linden: There are some known ghosting bugs, Kenny.. whether yours is a dupe or not depends on the details
[2013/10/24 15:19] Lucia Nightfire: file it anyway, lol
[2013/10/24 15:19] Ardy Lay: We should have a ghost-bug list for Halloween.
[2013/10/24 15:19] Kennylex Luckless: This is when you stand in one sim and rez an object so main prim land in border sim, then you get a ghost object .
[2013/10/24 15:19] Jenna Felton: since we cant search for bug jiras there will be duplicates :)
[2013/10/24 15:20] Lucia Nightfire: thats the opposite end of teh region full parcel ghosting bug thing
[2013/10/24 15:20] Lucia Nightfire: yeah
[2013/10/24 15:20] Lucia Nightfire: heh
[2013/10/24 15:20] Jenna Felton: I beleive i can not rezz stuff on other sim.
[2013/10/24 15:21] Maestro Linden: That's interesting, Kenny
[2013/10/24 15:21] Ardy Lay: THe duplicates have been less trouble than the JIRA-combat drama hiding the posts has stopped.
[2013/10/24 15:21] Jenna Felton: Yes i can
[2013/10/24 15:21] Maestro Linden: the 'parcel full' ones we've noted so far have been with vehicles
[2013/10/24 15:21] Maestro Linden: as opposed to freshly rezzed items
[2013/10/24 15:22] Kennylex Luckless: It is also a sit over sim border bug, if you build a prim bo over a border than stay on one side and try sit on other side of border.
[2013/10/24 15:22] Kennylex Luckless: When you go up ava get stuck in od place along the border and you has to TP out
[2013/10/24 15:23] Lucia Nightfire: you shouldn't be able to sit on a object who's root is not in the same region
[2013/10/24 15:23] Maestro Linden: don't you just see the "Cannot sit here. Object is in a different region than you." ?
[2013/10/24 15:24] Kennylex Luckless: Not if you stand on the prim and prim is in same area but go over border
[2013/10/24 15:24] Jenna Felton: probably the root prim of the object you wanted sit on was in same sim, but the prim you sat on was in the other
[2013/10/24 15:24] Lucia Nightfire: file a jira with a detailed repro
[2013/10/24 15:25] Maestro Linden: so the root prim's center is in your local region, but some of the prims in the linkset go across the region border?
[2013/10/24 15:25] Kennylex Luckless: I need more time write how bug works, I spell like a drunken burito.
[2013/10/24 15:25] Maestro Linden: yes, I think specific instructions would be good for this
[2013/10/24 15:25] Ardy Lay: Kenny, are you TRYING to break things? ;-)
[2013/10/24 15:25] Maestro Linden: :)
[2013/10/24 15:25] Kennylex Luckless: Always :)
[2013/10/24 15:26] Margithe: Thats why you love us, no?
[2013/10/24 15:26] Ardy Lay: You have been logged out because you left the edge of the world.
[2013/10/24 15:27] Kennylex Luckless: Void travling would be posible :)
[2013/10/24 15:28] Kennylex Luckless: And in the Void no one can hear you JIRA.
[2013/10/24 15:28] Jenna Felton: speaking about off going world, is that a rumour, that earlier it was possible to drive a vehicle or sail outside of any sim? Like from continten to continent
[2013/10/24 15:28] Jenna Felton: "going off world"
[2013/10/24 15:28] Jenna Felton: or it was really possible and not now
[2013/10/24 15:29] Maestro Linden: By the way, Andrew is working on the feature request to have a special exception for temp-on-rez/autoreturn timer inheritance when the rezzer is a vehicle
[2013/10/24 15:29] Jenna Felton: that is cool
[2013/10/24 15:29] Kennylex Luckless: There is world cordinates, so it would be posible to simulate void traveling if you has a water sim :)
[2013/10/24 15:29] Maestro Linden: (this was Lucia's topic last week for those of you who weren't here)
[2013/10/24 15:30] Jenna Felton: i have been said, that you was able to be outside of any existing sim. And it is technically possible even. :)
[2013/10/24 15:30] Ardy Lay: If you are not in a simulator then you are not being simulated. ;-)
[2013/10/24 15:30] Jonathan Yap: Jenna, if you are not connected to a region how would navigation operate?
[2013/10/24 15:30] Maestro Linden: Hm, that would've happened very early on if it happened at all, Jenna.. before my time, anyway
[2013/10/24 15:30] Margithe: well you can sit on off-world objects.
[2013/10/24 15:31] Jenna Felton: you stay main agent of a sim you left, until you enter another sim.
[2013/10/24 15:31] Yuzuru Jewell: Mestro, I am happy to hear your news about temp rez.
[2013/10/24 15:31] Maestro Linden: However, it used to be that if you weren't getting updates from the simulator, the viewer would extrapolate your position indefinitely
[2013/10/24 15:31] Ardy Lay: Viewer motion interpolation makes for some weird effects
[2013/10/24 15:31] Jenna Felton: ok
[2013/10/24 15:31] Ardy Lay: When interpolation becomes extrapolation, you are pretty much screwed.
[2013/10/24 15:32] Whirly Fizzle: I used to have a boat set up on my region that was offsim, so I could sail around the outside of the whole region. the boat was linked to a root prim just inside region border. It was a cool effect.
[2013/10/24 15:32] Maestro Linden: ah, yeah you can do that
[2013/10/24 15:32] Maestro Linden: as long as the root prim is inside the region
[2013/10/24 15:33] Kennylex Luckless: If you to from a place like Torley to the sim Here you can still see Torleys sim over the viod, so there is a bosibility to do void travling, but it needs a server and that server may be used to better things.
[2013/10/24 15:33] Ardy Lay: THe pot of gold at the end of the rainbow is just beyond the edge of the simulator.
[2013/10/24 15:33] Jenna Felton: hehe
[2013/10/24 15:34] Maestro Linden: if you teleport between a pair of regions separated by a void space, you'll often see the region that you departed from for a few seconds after teleporting
[2013/10/24 15:34] Kennylex Luckless: But avoid the void, the most evil and dangerous Linden lives there.
[2013/10/24 15:34] Jenna Felton: it was cool if it was possible to cross the ocean and reach another continent. but not necessary :)
[2013/10/24 15:34] Maestro Linden: (until your viewer disconnects from the source region)
[2013/10/24 15:35] Whirly Fizzle: I have a Q. Is it intended behaviour that an avatar on a parcel that has parcel privacy enabled is able to see other avatars that are next but one regions away? Avatars on the next but one region away cannot see avatars in the privacy enabled parcel however. I thought it was supposed to bi-directional at all distances.
[2013/10/24 15:36] Ardy Lay: Making travel in the void possible would probably violate some part of the agreement between LL and Estate owners.
[2013/10/24 15:36] Simon Linden: That sounds like a bug, Whirly
[2013/10/24 15:36] Maestro Linden: That smells like a bug to me too
[2013/10/24 15:36] Whirly Fizzle: Ok Ill file that then
[2013/10/24 15:36] Simon Linden: if it sounds AND smells like a bug....
[2013/10/24 15:36] Whirly Fizzle: Not that I cam perv a lot or anything!
[2013/10/24 15:36] Caleb Linden: it also depends on the maturity of the neighbor region from where you see the hidden parcel
[2013/10/24 15:36] Whirly Fizzle: @.@
[2013/10/24 15:36] Simon Linden: /me nods
[2013/10/24 15:37] Kennylex Luckless: Estate owners may have to opt in void travling landings
[2013/10/24 15:37] Maestro Linden: Whirly: is it adjacent regions, or does the neighboring region have to be far away (2 regions over)?
[2013/10/24 15:37] Whirly Fizzle: Oh! I didn't check the mat ratings. Ill do that
[2013/10/24 15:37] Simon Linden: but if you're on a parcel with that set so you have privacy, you shouldn't see AVs outside of that parcel, and nobody should be able to see into it. It's pretty simple
[2013/10/24 15:37] Jenna Felton: I can see often a friend goes on/off message, and when i ask them, they were on all the time. I guess this hapens because they enter and left that private parcell?
[2013/10/24 15:38] Whirly Fizzle: No, it has to be next but one region. So for example, if this parcel was privacy enabled, I should be able to see avies on Grignano
[2013/10/24 15:38] Simon Linden: no, those parcels have nothing to do with online status
[2013/10/24 15:38] Jenna Felton: ok
[2013/10/24 15:39] Lucia Nightfire: any word on that controllabel privacy ceiling thing, Maestro? heh
[2013/10/24 15:39] Lucia Nightfire: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-951
[2013/10/24 15:39] Maestro Linden: that was where you'd have it adjustable in parcel controls, right?
[2013/10/24 15:40] Lucia Nightfire: no
[2013/10/24 15:40] Lucia Nightfire: it was filed after you all made parcel privacy have aceilign of 50m above groudn
[2013/10/24 15:40] Lucia Nightfire: "you all" heh
[2013/10/24 15:40] Maestro Linden: lemme quote the report:
[2013/10/24 15:40] Maestro Linden: h1. Information
 Since the release of server version 12.09.04.264357 avatar visibility (when off) now follows a height of 50 meters above land for all parcels no matter the access level (public access, group access, accesslist, banlist).
[2013/10/24 15:40] Maestro Linden: h1. Problem
 This can be an issue with business such as stores, malls, clubs, adult commerce, etc. that may have floors or stairs that are in between 50 meters above ground on parcels with visbility off (privacy from neighbors, public to guests). Those environments are common enough to consider especially when guests on the same public access parcel can't see or talk to each other even though they're only a few meters apart, but just below and above 50 meters above ground.
[2013/10/24 15:41] Maestro Linden: h1. Solution
 Land owners need a means of changing where this ceiling should start. A range of 50 - 5000 meters above ground could be inputted in a textbox next to the checkbox for visibility on the Land Options menu.
 
 This would give land owners more flexibility should their businesses or privacy needs require.
 This would be extremely benificial for owners that wish to setup multiple parcels, each with a different visibility height should their business/industry require it.
[2013/10/24 15:41] Maestro Linden: there hasn't been any movement with that one
[2013/10/24 15:42] Kennylex Luckless: Higher ban lines would be great tool for land griefers.
[2013/10/24 15:42] Jonathan Yap: maestro, do you need someone to do the viewer work?
[2013/10/24 15:42] Maestro Linden: the reason for the 50m privacy ceiling change (originally there was no ceiling) is that anybody can enter your parcel above 50m above the land level
[2013/10/24 15:42] Lucia Nightfire: higher banlines?
[2013/10/24 15:42] Lucia Nightfire: its already 5000 over ground
[2013/10/24 15:42] Simon Linden: yes, they could enter from above and then look down
[2013/10/24 15:42] Simon Linden: so it wasn't very private
[2013/10/24 15:43] Lucia Nightfire: ok, make it 8192 for teh ma
[2013/10/24 15:43] Lucia Nightfire: 50 - 8192 range, lol
[2013/10/24 15:43] Maestro Linden: only explicit bans go to 5000m or so
[2013/10/24 15:44] Maestro Linden: Jonathan, it's really just waiting on product review
[2013/10/24 15:45] Lucia Nightfire: its nto that high priority to me though
[2013/10/24 15:45] Lucia Nightfire: what is though is access to data that would make admin work better
[2013/10/24 15:45] Lucia Nightfire: and tools, lol
[2013/10/24 15:46] Kennylex Luckless: There would be an option that users banned from a parcel not shall be able to talk to folks in that parcel.
[2013/10/24 15:46] Ardy Lay: Is the typical limit of 40 avatars to a mainland full region still reasonable? With all the improvements perhaps it could be higher.
[2013/10/24 15:46] Lucia Nightfire: banned agents can't chat across banned parcels
[2013/10/24 15:47] Lucia Nightfire: they can still IM people and dialog spam them, etc
[2013/10/24 15:47] Kennylex Luckless: I did think voice did go over and sound spam.
[2013/10/24 15:48] Maestro Linden: Hm, for voice I think it would depend on whether the parcel is set to use a private channel or the estate channel
[2013/10/24 15:48] Jenna Felton: For bloking IM you must take Mute operation :)
[2013/10/24 15:48] Kennylex Luckless: Darn, now I has to ban my alt to test before I say more :-)
[2013/10/24 15:48] Jenna Felton: Ban is blocking from visit
[2013/10/24 15:50] Ardy Lay: Maybe the limit of 40 on mainland is meant to create "product differentiation" between the lower cost mainland regions and the higher cost estate regions.
[2013/10/24 15:50] Lucia Nightfire: anything other than chat across a banned parcel you'll have to take the initiative and mute, sadly
[2013/10/24 15:51] Lucia Nightfire: as there is no auto-mute for guests on banned parcels
[2013/10/24 15:51] Ardy Lay: WHen I mute, I do not do it sadly.
[2013/10/24 15:52] Kennylex Luckless: Well, I manage a sandbox and baned users some time try do bad things after ban.
[2013/10/24 15:52] Kennylex Luckless: if I mute them I can not hear what they do and not manage the sandbox.
[2013/10/24 15:52] Lucia Nightfire: I get it daily
[2013/10/24 15:53] Lucia Nightfire: also, can soemone look at https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SEC-1354? as that concerns me how that is still working after they're banned
[2013/10/24 15:53] Ardy Lay: I very rarely get crap from people I remove. Maybe being a skunk helps there.
[2013/10/24 15:53] Jenna Felton: There is no way to make idiots stop being idiots.
[2013/10/24 15:53] Jenna Felton: when they not waht
[2013/10/24 15:54] Ardy Lay: I send them home so they can be idiots far-far-away.
[2013/10/24 15:54] Ardy Lay: Eject is soo useless.
[2013/10/24 15:54] Lucia Nightfire: Ardy is your sandbox on mainland?
[2013/10/24 15:54] Kennylex Luckless: No, but ban that make them invisible like personal privacy for banned users vould be nice
[2013/10/24 15:54] Ardy Lay: All the land I manage is mainland and I don't call it a sandbox.
[2013/10/24 15:55] Kennylex Luckless: So banned users not can see or hear users in area whare they are in the ban list
[2013/10/24 15:55] Lucia Nightfire: having different owner neighboring parcels or regions makes moderation difficult on mainland
[2013/10/24 15:55] Ardy Lay: We just celebrated our 10th anniversary in SL last Saturday.
[2013/10/24 15:56] Kennylex Luckless: HORRAY!?
[2013/10/24 15:56] Jenna Felton: Thats an interesting idea. Make a parcell or sim to be private for a new list of residents. So when they get on it, and return they see an empty sim and can not do anything on it (scripts and rezzing off and scripts in attachments off, too)
[2013/10/24 15:56] Jenna Felton: They get boring and leave it for good
[2013/10/24 15:57] Ardy Lay: A member of the group first acquired some of the group's current land holdings a bit over 10 years ago.
[2013/10/24 15:58] arton Rotaru: as time goes by
[2013/10/24 15:58] Lucia Nightfire: well, I think banlists should work like parcel privacy, where if someone gets banned, they can't see teh agents on the parcel, the guests on the parcel can't render the banned agent or their objects they may rez elsewhere in view of that parcel
[2013/10/24 15:58] Rex Cronon: jenna. u can already do that. u just have to use a "bomb":)
[2013/10/24 15:58] Kennylex Luckless: Yup, or an option for that
[2013/10/24 15:59] Lucia Nightfire: no moar bomb talk...
[2013/10/24 15:59] Lucia Nightfire: that problem is gonna linger for awhile
[2013/10/24 15:59] Maestro Linden: that could be an interesting feature.. visual muting of all objects somebody owns
[2013/10/24 15:59] Jenna Felton: i dont like any sort of weapons Rex :) Except that RLV bomb that turned me into a mushrom. but its another idea
[2013/10/24 15:59] Lucia Nightfire: Maestro, thats one of teh parts of my parcel control things
[2013/10/24 15:59] Maestro Linden: yeah that rings a bell
[2013/10/24 15:59] Jenna Felton: another "story*
[2013/10/24 15:59] Lucia Nightfire: it allows land owners to protect their guests
[2013/10/24 16:00] Lucia Nightfire: indirectly, implicitly
[2013/10/24 16:00] Jonathan Yap: if you visually mute enmass don't forget to also not show particles, etc.
[2013/10/24 16:00] Ardy Lay: I find using a database of undesirables and sending them home when they arrive to be more effective than banning them and having them stuck to the border like flies on flypaper.
[2013/10/24 16:00] Ardy Lay: The database does also set a timed land ban after it send them home.
[2013/10/24 16:00] Lucia Nightfire: instead of having every single guest taht comes in having to mute teh one person taht was banned
[2013/10/24 16:00] Maestro Linden: I think that would generally work, jonathan (particle systems following prim visibility); at least that's how it works with the interest list
[2013/10/24 16:01] Margithe: banning should send people to a special purgatory sim XD. At least for halloween....
[2013/10/24 16:01] Lucia Nightfire: Ardy taht is SOP of most large banlist sandboxes
[2013/10/24 16:01] Jenna Felton: hehe Margithe
[2013/10/24 16:01] Jenna Felton: Lets send banned guys into cornfields
[2013/10/24 16:01] Lucia Nightfire: a temp ban is done at least to prevent the pest from rezzing on the parcel at the minimum
[2013/10/24 16:02] Ardy Lay: Since we are up to about 28 regions worth of land scattered about the grid we use a centralized database in a managed data center for all of it.
[2013/10/24 16:02] Kennylex Luckless: I think SL shall open a Jail like in that film about Timemachine Pool :-)
[2013/10/24 16:02] Maestro Linden: Looks like we're out of time
[2013/10/24 16:02] Simon Linden: The big trouble with ban lists comes when you have to check them constantly ... they can be a real performance killer
[2013/10/24 16:02] Maestro Linden: or at least I am - gotta run to another meeting
[2013/10/24 16:02] Simon Linden: Me too
[2013/10/24 16:02] Simon Linden: thanks everyone for coming today
[2013/10/24 16:02] Jenna Felton: have good meeting Maestro and good weekend
[2013/10/24 16:02] Margithe: Take care!
[2013/10/24 16:02] Maestro Linden: thanks for coming, everybody!
[2013/10/24 16:03] Maestro Linden: you too
[2013/10/24 16:03] Rex Cronon: tc maestro
[2013/10/24 16:03] arton Rotaru: thanks for the meeting