Doc Team/2010-03-17

== Transcript ==
[12:58]	:	finding this clothing took a while to find lol
[12:58]	:	i suspect we'll be using more Shared Media here in the future given our transition...
[12:58]	:	and it's JEREMY LINDEN in the hizzouse!
[12:58]	 	has pinged you.
[12:58]	:	hihi Eddi!
[12:58]	:	nice shirt, Jeremy
[12:58]	 	has pinged you.
[12:58]	:	O HAI
[12:58]	:	Hi Torley ㋡
[12:58]	:	Hiya
[12:58]	:	how are you? ㋡
[12:58]	:	Torley the sign behind you could be updated to viewer 2 screen or something relating it :D - suggestion
[12:59]	:	hey Marianne
[12:59]	:	hey jeremy
[12:59]	 	has pinged you.
[12:59]	:	hello Marianne ㋡
[12:59]	:	Daniel, yeah! the movie could be changed... hmmm...
[12:59]	:	:)
[12:59]	:	Mari! welcome!
[13:00]	:	Thankoo, Torley - see yer havin fun with the alpha layer
[13:00]	:	indeed i am! i had so much fun... i momentarily lost my head
[13:00]	:	/me giggles
[13:00]	:	oops
[13:01]	:	i need to go before 2 pm, i organise a group pictures ㋡
[13:01]	:	oooh what kinda group picture? friends, fashion, both, Eddi?
[13:01]	:	hey paul
[13:01]	:	Off topic: I want to cortially invite all to the 6th anniversary of Nova Albion this coming Saturday at 2 SLT/PDT
[13:01]	:	Hello how are you doing derek
[13:01]	:	cordially
[13:01]	:	top O the Mornin
[13:01]	:	i posted a new tip to http://secondlife.com/tnt thanks to data: URI you can put custom HTML on Shared Media WITHOUT uploading a webpage! https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Shared_Media_and_data_URI has more details
[13:01]	:	the time has sure flown, Mari...
[13:01]	:	sounds great Marianne, adds it to my calendar
[13:01]	:	look who's dropping in! welcome aboard
[13:01]	:	Torley surprise for Pathfinder, i send the pictures to the boston office after ㋡
[13:02]	:	crap
[13:02]	:	sorry didnt mean to land on you
[13:02]	:	Very cool, Eddi
[13:02]	:	awwe Eddie that's very thoughtful of you
[13:02]	:	np, Bronson
[13:02]	:	㋡
[13:02]	:	I should have cleared out
[13:02]	:	Gonna miss that mage
[13:02]	:	What about the Boston office?
[13:03]	:	Pathfinder was a severely positive influence on my early SL...
[13:03]	:	oh, fun trick for all you with high-traffic landing points: put in an invisible wedge just below the spot and set it rotating. people dropping in slide off in different directions
[13:03]	:	㋡
[13:03]	:	i know where you hide your gold paul lol
[13:03]	:	giggles
[13:03]	:	Interesting thought, Aargle. Like it
[13:03]	:	he was main founder of the Linden Village which expanded to include this Doc Dock here...
[13:03]	:	lol
[13:03]	:	I like that idea
[13:03]	:	lol
[13:03]	:	hahaha Aargle, where is this in use? i'd like to see this firsthand! very creative
[13:03]	:	Aargle, or set it to high speed for extra fun.
[13:03]	:	Ya. Ableside looks sso... wrong... without his spot
[13:04]	:	my good friend Athena Sterling has one set up.... let me find the LM
[13:04]	:	Ambleside*
[13:04]	:	I've not played much with the alpha layer yet, though I may do so with my shoes, to get ride of the invisiprim. I do like the tattoo layer, though
[13:04]	:	I don't land on that anymore, though... not since I"m an estate manager. :-)
[13:04]	:	this is what i do now... when i get landmarks, i drag them to my faves bar so i remember to visit them right after
[13:05]	:	oh hi Jeremy ㋡
[13:05]	 	has pinged you.
[13:05]	:	thanks Aargle!
[13:05]	:	Hulloy!
[13:05]	:	er, Hello!
[13:05]	:	no problem.
[13:05]	:	Typefail
[13:05]	:	✖ FAIL ✖
[13:05]	:	Well, Back to the old drawing board
[13:05]	:	I like it!
[13:05]	:	LOL , other localization by Jeremy :p
[13:05]	 	has pinged you.
[13:06]	:	hey Tech ㋡
[13:06]	:	sorry Derek
[13:06]	:	A question, as this came up in yesterday's Bay City meeting: Would it be appropriate for mainland communities like Bay City to use the SL Wiki to provide some of their history, information, and even planning, or would that be out of scope?
[13:06]	:	im getting a lot of lag lol
[13:06]	:	Eddi, you usin' a gesture to make those ㋡?
[13:06]	:	Lag happens.
[13:06]	:	did you read my im Derek
[13:06]	:	Mari, that's a beautiful question. and since it's strongly about Second Life culture, that's directly relevant and welcome!
[13:06]	:	well, torley honestly im on the snowglobe test 1.4 for the moment .. i know to many crahs in v2 :(
[13:06]	:	It sounds no more inappropriate than to make a user entry
[13:07]	:	crash*
[13:07]	:	Woo!
[13:07]	:	On topic at last!
[13:07]	:	/me grins
[13:07]	:	/me's found he can't map-tp to other altitudes, in SL2
[13:07]	:	the more of our history we can archive on wiki.secondlife.com the better -- exceptions include X-rated content (if someone is keeping Zindra journals) but i imagine that's not a prob for Bay City... ;)
[13:07]	:	lag has its good points you know your not going to get anywhere so you can rest up for a bit :-)
[13:07]	:	It was somethignt hat was brought up as we plan our own 2nd anniversary event and other things around the city.
[13:08]	:	lol good point
[13:08]	:	Cool. Um... Where might it be best to do it? Simply start an entry on Bay City, or is there a good community hierarchy to start from?
[13:08]	:	Talking of archieve I added some more info on http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/History_of_Second_Life :)
[13:08]	:	and of course as you know Mari, please add to http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Culture category.
[13:08]	:	oh, right... Nova Albion's anniversary is... like... now, right?
[13:08]	:	Torley, i can use the v2 picture to do some explaine in french on a other website?
[13:08]	:	yeah there's not even a http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Bay_City page, go ahead and claim that
[13:08]	:	Qie - this coming weekend at 2
[13:08]	:	hellow
[13:09]	:	Consider it caimed
[13:09]	:	Eddi, which V2 picture?
[13:09]	:	Second Life Birthday?
[13:09]	:	UI pictures
[13:09]	:	hi ya eeryone
[13:09]	:	Hi, Hope, we finally have Torley, and can ask how soon hhis videos will have Subtitles
[13:09]	:	Entering god mode, level 200
[13:09]	:	( rezzing... rezzzing... please stand by .rezzzzzzzzzinnnggg)
[13:09]	:	grins
[13:10]	:	I'll work that up this afternoon
[13:10]	:	oh mavelous !!!!
[13:10]	:	Eddi, yup, that's fine. it's generally OK to use pictures of the Viewer user interface and such for explanatory and educational purposes. the main thing that's not cool is misrepresentation, like someone claiming they made it.
[13:10]	:	that would be wonderful
[13:10]	:	Arawn, have you seen YouTube's auto-subtitles? not the best but, kinda funny...
[13:10]	:	smiles at Torley
[13:10]	:	I ll have to see that Torley :-)
[13:10]	:	i wonder if there's a way to have subtitles be editable like a wiki... then that makes it a lot more open
[13:10]	:	Something more relevant to TorleyTuts, than to Second Life, is how soon Subtitles will enjoy computer translation
[13:10]	:	Im not seeing eveyone here yet
[13:11]	:	Torley Tuts?
[13:11]	:	lol
[13:11]	:	king tut
[13:11]	:	Torley does that videos, that don't transllate out of english well
[13:11]	:	ha ha ha
[13:11]	:	gotta love those sub-titles: I got my hands on a bootleg "LOTR" video and the subtitles where positively comical. Any reference to Gondor became "Condo" and any time the translater found a word that started with "F" he assumed it was "Frodo". The humor value was great. My favorite line instead of "Fly! You fools!" was "Frodo, you fool!"
[13:11]	:	ok
[13:11]	:	yes Hope video tutorials i made, http://secondlife.com/video or http://youtube.com/secondlife
[13:11]	:	hahahahaaha Aargle, OMG...
[13:11]	:	Frodo takes a verbal beating XD
[13:12]	:	Frodo Ewe
[13:12]	:	Language, Arawn :-P
[13:12]	:	Hi Torley
[13:13]	:	heya Elite!
[13:13]	:	Hi everyone
[13:13]	:	Elite you've got quite a constant and recognizable color scheme yourself eh?
[13:13]	:	yeah
[13:13]	:	does anyone else here like Caprica? excited for Tron Legacy?
[13:14]	:	I'm guardedly optimistic about Tron Legacy. shame it does not have Wendy Carlos on the soundtrack
[13:14]	:	I like Caprica, although a bit drawn out like a soap opera. I saw Tron when it first came out. Going to be instesting to see the actually sequel. It's not a remake.
[13:14]	:	Wait wait... Is Tron Legacy the same thing as TR2N?
[13:15]	:	the built-in Viewer Help in Viewer 2 now has SEARCH! newly added, try it out... Help menu > Second Life Help or click the "?" on just about any window
[13:15]	:	yes Jeremy
[13:15]	 	has pinged you.
[13:15]	:	what it evolved into, anyway
[13:15]	:	Mari, yeah, i HEART her music, i would've liked to have a collab with her and Daft Punk. Daft Punk are great with catchy riffs but their sense of counterpoint and synthetic orchestration isn't as matured...
[13:15]	:	hey, I just had an idea as a suggestion for the new browser. the usefulness won't be immediately obvious, but let me toss it out.
[13:15]	:	exactly. And what a combination *that* would be
[13:16]	:	Techwolf, yeah, that's how i'm finding the plot arcs with Caprica. cracks me up when there are mentions of things that can happen in SL, like in the last ep, lack of flying.
[13:16]	:	please do suggest, Aargle!
[13:16]	:	my eyes bugged out when i first heard SOB... that's Switched-On Bach. and reading the stories of how Carlos had to splice all those phrases together, that's insane.
[13:16]	:	is it possible to add icons to each menu element? I ask, because I find myself telling people using the non-english version of the client to use a specific menu entry, but the text isn't the same, so even a screen-capture can't help.
[13:16]	:	I like the shared media feature in which I watch youtube videos
[13:16]	:	Linden Labs is always interested in stealing idea-um, user feedback
[13:17]	:	but a screen-cap of the suggested menu item if it had icons on the menus would transcend language barriers
[13:17]	:	hmm that's an interesting idea Aargle, and i recall in some cases, the sidebar (which is iconic) came up as an alternate route for some of these menu options. but, do you mean, an icon for each option or each top-level menu? some are harder to represent than others...
[13:17]	:	Hmm... You mean unique icons for every single menu item?
[13:17]	:	^ this
[13:17]	:	yeah, I realize it might be tough in the uniqueness menu
[13:18]	:	Screen Capture, loaded as MoaP?
[13:18]	:	i think basic icons for common functions would be helpful
[13:18]	:	but, for example, it's brutal to explain to someone who only speaks polish how to find the "Set Scripts To Running in Selection" entry
[13:18]	:	Im not sure if anyone has mentioned this but has anyone coplained about the difficulty in finding the musik properties and turning the music off
[13:18]	:	the basic things are obvious. it's like my example that's tough
[13:19]	:	a script icon with a "no" symbol over it...
[13:19]	:	Paul54. Often, yes.
[13:19]	:	we do have a "SLapp" functionality which can provide links that, when clicked, open windows and such. i don't know if that extends to localization.
[13:19]	:	i miss the tiny icons in the system folders like cloths scripts textures ect.
[13:19]	:	it'd be cool if you could paste a link and it'd open something on someone's screen for them (security precautions in place, of course).
[13:19]	:	I do wish they'd get around to fixing the reversed icons on the play/pause up top
[13:19]	:	(in inventory)
[13:19]	:	lol, yeah, even in the 2nd beta, that media pause/play control is... mystical
[13:19]	:	Im sorry guys
[13:20]	:	the one i prolly miss the most is Trash, Derek... Trash is definitely not the same as the older folders. neither is Lost & Found because you can DELETE stuff in both, gulp.
[13:20]	:	i think LL needs to do a poll on that sidebar.. i think 90% hate it
[13:20]	:	Marianne, I've been coping with the play/pause button by envisioning it as a status icon rather than a button. I feel your pain, though.
[13:20]	:	i wasnt sure i noticed it and got a bit frustrated with fing how to turn the music off then it mysteriously turned itself back on again
[13:20]	:	Chaley May I loves it !!!
[13:20]	:	Sidebar, good idea. Badly implemted.
[13:20]	:	I like the pul sidebar
[13:20]	:	I don't hate it, but I think it misses some core functionality
[13:20]	:	Hah, I remember back when I had a firefox plugin that provided an icon for just about everything...
[13:20]	:	I do Screen Capture, on occassion, but don't know quite how. I don't think it should show how many Lindens I have, thought
[13:20]	:	you can be the 10% :)
[13:20]	:	Chaley, tough thing with polls tho, is opinions shift over time as people get used to stuff -- we've had login screen polls before, but yeah, gauging how people like it as things go on...
[13:20]	:	except it wontlet me drop notecard or texture into group notice
[13:20]	:	Agreed, jeremy - but it goes opposite of decades of audio UI form.
[13:20]	 	has pinged you.
[13:21]	:	ok guys.. I gottarunnI pologize
[13:21]	:	thank you Arawn
[13:21]	:	maby a setting to optionally add back older elements of the viewer
[13:21]	:	I was afraid Doc Hour would be canclede again
[13:21]	:	Mari, yeah, that is confusing when flipping back and forth between SL and iTunes or something.
[13:22]	:	its it backwards compatible ?
[13:22]	:	a serious question: all focus groups aside, will there be A/B testing of this new UI vs the old, in operation? I just think it's kind of an act of faith to just cutover to it for new users, and pray it isn't a complete mistake for them.
[13:22]	:	its just lots slower.. cant access friends while your reading a profile.. close the profile to access friends and you lose it so have to search again
[13:22]	:	how might that A/B testing be done, Qie?
[13:23]	:	Chaley - yes, I found it.. telling... to see Torley's "where is this now" list, and see that everything listed required *more* steps to get to
[13:23]	:	take a person who has never used the new one vs a person that has only used the new one and test sppeds of doing thingd
[13:23]	:	well, hand half the new users the old UI, and half the new, and see who's left standing after a week.
[13:23]	:	Well, to be fair. Either the same number of steps or more.
[13:23]	:	do keep in mind in some (not all) cases, where some stuff moved is more obscure because those features aren't very commonly used. i do agree that inventory transfers should be easier.
[13:23]	:	a lot of the stuff that's flat-out easier isn't on that Viewer 2 Moves page, tho... like landmark navigation.
[13:23]	:	getting to a place is far easier than the old "OMG WORLD MAP..."
[13:24]	:	Qie, I strongly suspect they have big numbers on new people retained who just use the existing client.
[13:24]	:	I find I can't change altitude, on Map-TP
[13:24]	:	End user customizable UI will end all the UI debates. Users will create better UI and the best gets the most shared theme.
[13:24]	:	i like the new search routines i really do
[13:24]	:	Qie, i remember we A/B tested website reg flows and orientation experiences. with the Viewer it might be trickier because it's not as flexible when it comes to support...
[13:24]	:	hmmm.
[13:24]	:	listing each item with a link is so much more easier
[13:24]	:	Techwolf, that points to the parallel interest in open-source viewers...
[13:25]	:	i like the omg world map lol
[13:25]	:	one of the worst issues with the UI to me - aside from the comically small text chat window, the lack of map coordinates, and the play/pause button mixup, is the inability to open to profiles, or be able to drop inventory into a group notice without opening a second inventory window
[13:25]	:	if a third party successfully removes that sidebar i will use that client
[13:25]	:	map coords! i miss those too
[13:25]	:	we're seeing many people say "i'm sticking with [INSERT 3rd-party viewer]"... that diversity will continue to flourish
[13:25]	:	Fun thing is, the new location bar can be used for TPing to new coordinates pretty quickly.
[13:25]	:	An issue I had getting here today...
[13:26]	:	Mari, yeah, that second inventory window should NOT be necessary... something more like the texture picker to send inventory, maybe...
[13:26]	:	If I type "Beaumont" in to the top bar, I'll end up mid sim
[13:26]	:	I was in my workshop, with is at 500m
[13:26]	:	RLV is going to hold onto a lot of people too
[13:26]	:	Hm. I actually used the world map to get here today. I typed "Beaumont" in there, then chose my landing point with the mouse.
[13:26]	:	If I use the map, type beaumont, then select the doc, I have a teleport at 500m in the air over here
[13:26]	:	I also have this place in my Favorites bar.
[13:27]	:	i like "type in direct region name and teleport" but yeah, it takes you right to the middle... there should be a way to ALSO enter coordinates like Beaumont/30/168 -- that shortform doesn't work yet.
[13:27]	:	On the plus side, this location does have a landing point set, so I made it where i needed.. but not all places do
[13:27]	:	My own obersation. Amoung the general population, even mix of LL, emerad, and all other combined. Amoung werewolves, furries, dragons and other non-human avatars, over 90 percent emerald.
[13:27]	:	I'd been trying to get from Tayaila to Siden
[13:27]	:	this issue could be resolved with some easy way to enter coordinates form the map panel.
[13:27]	:	there are some welcome, un-obvious changes, like when you set an object for sale, it automatically enables the "Buy object" click action. this should make it easier for people to buy stuff and f or content creators to sell without consciously thinking about click actions, that was a historical flaw.
[13:27]	:	i would rather it just popup a minimap of that sim for us to click
[13:28]	:	I'm still a die-hard user of the standard client.
[13:28]	:	I have to go take care everyone see ya later
[13:28]	:	Torley - I love that it assigns the click action, which is so woefully underused
[13:28]	:	Thanks for coming, Paul!
[13:28]	:	Have fun, Paul
[13:28]	:	part of the thinking why we've moved the World Map further "back" is because it has tended to overwhelm, someone sees "OMG SO MANY PLACES" and feels lost, despite green dots. but it's still discoverable from the Home tab...
[13:28]	:	i think thebackwards and forwards buttons should show a minimap of each sim too
[13:28]	:	bye paul
[13:28]	:	take care Paul!
[13:29]	:	because then you can find the sim you want then teleport instead of keeping teleporting till you find it
[13:29]	:	so yeah, in this Viewer 2 feedback we're getting, i really enjoy looking at *specifics* because otherwise, it's not really actionable to understand what's happening. on the forums i'm seeing Resis point out what's harder but not showing the other side of the story, too.
[13:29]	:	Chaley, does it help that there is a teleport history as the dropdown menu in the address bar?
[13:30]	:	Perhaps a bunch of those on Emerald are using the new attachment point viewing, heh... unfortunately Emerald no longer works for me that well.
[13:30]	:	brb. Got a call from a sim.
[13:30]	:	yes but i think i would like a little map preview just thinking of good ways to make use of it
[13:31]	:	the big world map has always been more for a lot of simple searches we use it for
[13:31]	:	the minimap needs ro be a bit smaller in 2.0 in my opinion
[13:31]	:	that teleport history keeps saving me trouble. i remember all the times where someone went, "i was at this cool place and wanted to share it with you but i don't remember and my chat logging is off."
[13:31]	:	but a little map that show one sim would be great
[13:32]	:	The mini-map is resizable... can it not get small enough?
[13:32]	:	yeah, cool stuff.
[13:32]	:	lol, well my only thing about it is the bar at the top of it
[13:32]	:	the teleport history is pretty cool yeah
[13:32]	:	it is yes
[13:32]	:	I like the tool
[13:33]	:	also remember you can change UI size in Preferences' Graphics tab if you feel the fonts are too big or UI chrome is too much in the way still... that can help on smaller resolutions...
[13:33]	:	the only thing was that I did crash permantly using it
[13:33]	:	Ah, noted Derek. People have had mixed feelings about that.
[13:33]	:	allready had teleport history though in scripts
[13:33]	:	i actually do change the ui size when im on my smaller-screened laptop
[13:33]	:	Chaley, yes, but there's a great example of a feature so useful and basic it should be built in...
[13:33]	:	another one that comes up a lot, Viewer-side AOs... ;)
[13:34]	:	heh, my only problem with it is that sometimes I'll fumble on the keyboard and end up sending me back for no good reason. But that's me.
[13:34]	:	yeah they should be built in
[13:34]	:	hehehhe
[13:34]	:	I had that too
[13:34]	:	although a viewer side AO would need to be built well....
[13:34]	:	I'll be glad when I can get scripts info. Had someone grifting a sim with scripts and no way to tell who was doing it.
[13:35]	:	AOs can be interactive with some devicves and a client one wouldnt be
[13:35]	:	on one hand, the old Mini-Map without title saved some space. on the other, classic problem with that was it confused newcomers who wondered "What is this?" it looks very obvious in hindsight, true! one of those "once you know it's easy looking back..."
[13:35]	:	well sorry , i need to go ㋡
[13:35]	:	hell I did some strange typo effect that it ended up rebboting my comp, and I have no idea what keys I hit to do that
[13:35]	:	bye Eddi!
[13:35]	:	See ya Eddi!
[13:35]	:	see you next meeting ㋡
[13:35]	:	Viewer Side AO? All animations are viewer side, and MoaP presages the streaming of Gestures.
[13:36]	:	in other words, with a window without a title, it isn't obvious how it's linked to a menu or other command to open/close it.
[13:36]	:	Emerald now has client side AO.
[13:36]	:	there is a shortcut for that lol i've donr it too on my old 98
[13:36]	:	for clarity Arawn, I mean one built into the Appearance Editor or somesuch thing, instead of a separate, scripted gadget.
[13:36]	:	oh good Im not the only one that did that then
[13:36]	:	lol
[13:36]	:	Bit tricky to set up, but once done. Never have to worry about no-script again. And it works on all clients.
[13:36]	:	i helped market some of the first popular AOs so this is kinda full circle. :)
[13:37]	:	im shure theres more people that have too Bronson lol
[13:37]	:	*that have done it too
[13:37]	:	lol
[13:37]	:	typos are fun
[13:37]	:	or annoying as hell
[13:37]	:	i do appreciate feedback when someone tells a story of why they like certain features so much and how they use them daily -- sometimes it's the stuff that's not so "glossy" but you need to use regularly that's the most important to you
[13:38]	:	whispers: something to dd to iewer , typo correction
[13:38]	:	I think Streaming AO is about the idea that Linden Labs was first trying to develop, and SL was just a byproduct.
[13:38]	:	Haha, Derek.
[13:38]	:	the spel check in emerld is handy
[13:38]	:	if i would use it lol
[13:39]	:	I find I still get Keyboard Lag, on SL2
[13:39]	:	(i hate this keyboard)
[13:39]	:	theres a spellcheck?
[13:39]	:	i didnt know
[13:39]	:	㋡
[13:39]	:	and a built in translator
[13:39]	:	blad splelling
[13:39]	:	yeah you can use external spellcheck or typo correction as a workaround -- on Mac, Snow Leopard has it built in. i use TextExpander. on Windows there's PhraseExpress, AutoHotKey and others.
[13:40]	:	i haven't had to type out " Friendly greetings " in full in a long time. :)
[13:40]	:	ooh, i didnt know they made stuff like that
[13:40]	:	it's pretty handy and "universal" which means it works with almost all apps that accept standard text input, Derek
[13:41]	:	/me is going to look into these...
[13:41]	:	The one issue that sticks with me about SL2.0 is that the location bar is kinda big for some people, who would appreciate if, upon hiding that location bar, a location description showed up in the old place. Maybe when you're done testing reactions to the new bar this could be considered - poor eyesight users would appreciate (they have limited space).
[13:41]	:	I heart AutoHotkey. I use it to macro all kinds of things.
[13:41]	:	Like... our old Knowledge Base links from before we moved to the wiki.
[13:42]	:	am i crashed?
[13:42]	:	Don't know, but you can shat
[13:42]	:	Nope!
[13:42]	:	chat
[13:43]	:	shat?!?!!?!? lol
[13:43]	:	i can what?
[13:43]	:	oh jesus christ ... THERE the about land button is
[13:43]	:	Scat, shat chat
[13:43]	:	Out of curiosity, how many people here are currently running Emerald?
[13:43]	:	i love how theres the "force a crash" option in the advanced menyu of 2.0
[13:43]	:	Al, yes, some people want the Search bar bigger, or something else in there. Or the same can be said for the chat bar width, to make it resizable...
[13:43]	:	sorry I have to leave to rl , thank you and it is a great tool
[13:43]	:	*rases hand*
[13:43]	:	i have emerald
[13:43]	:	the chat bar doesn't scale proportionally when enlarging the Viewer window and that makes me crazy in roleplay situations!
[13:44]	:	but being on emerald we can count this too :)
[13:44]	:	its funny that emerald isnt on the list of TPV
[13:44]	:	there is only use 2 on emerald
[13:44]	:	Emerad 64-bit user here.
[13:44]	:	Emerald 64-bit?
[13:44]	:	dierctory
[13:44]	:	directory
[13:44]	:	Yep. 64-bit build.
[13:45]	:	ah, yes, there's that whole category of issues... heh, well thanks for letting me how much that's all on your mind.
[13:45]	:	I was just commenting to Torley that our job as the documentation team is getting interesting; we don't support third party viewers ourselves, which led me to wonder about Second Life customer support in the future.
[13:45]	:	is that new?
[13:45]	:	gentoo.techwolf.net
[13:45]	:	/me nodnods
[13:45]	:	well yeah I was wondering about that
[13:45]	:	Support will get real interesting, on Open GFrid
[13:45]	:	related, http://viewerdirectory.secondlife.com/
[13:46]	:	LL mentioned the power users can go to the TPVs
[13:46]	:	but they dont support the people who will
[13:46]	:	whats up with that?
[13:46]	:	Wikis are editable by user. You should allow help pages for Emerald and others with the usall disclamer.
[13:47]	:	Well, we (the Lindens) can't be responsible for learning and supporting every product made by every third party. We can really only intimately know our own stuff :-)
[13:47]	:	Bronson, like Jeremy mentioned, and we haven't said it exactly like that. but one thing to keep in mind is people willing to tinker/take risks are also more technically savvy.
[13:47]	 	has pinged you.
[13:47]	:	so they can take care of themselves better.
[13:47]	:	e.g., power users are more apt to create their own support systems and documentation specific to their needs.
[13:48]	:	I think that there should be some sorta support at least for those that made it to the self certified directory
[13:48]	:	hm.... did someone hire a dancer while I was gone? :-)
[13:48]	:	There... in the other window I've gone ahead and added that Bay City page, under Category:Culture
[13:48]	:	Torley, and plase let those powerusers create the help wikis for those.
[13:48]	:	there's the old question of time and resources too, if we had to train staff on other viewers that could detract from expertise in the official Viewer -- there's also marketing and legal issues about brand name dilution... etc...
[13:48]	:	Techwolf, they certainly can and have already been doing so! there are several out there already.
[13:49]	:	Well, I imagine we still provide support for any service-related issues, such as private regions, abuse issues, account issues, etc. However, in a lot of cases, we're not even allowed to log into third party viewers as Lindens. It's a security concern :-)
[13:49]	:	So, to contact Customer Support, they should be using the Gamma Test Viewer, in a Linden Labs Sim
[13:50]	:	cant be too hard.. I got the old standard, 2.0 , Snowglobe, Emerald, and several versions of Kirstens
[13:50]	:	Thank ${DEITY} that someone fixed the search on the wiki.
[13:50]	:	keep in mind even in our own Viewer, we don't explicitly support Advanced menu stuff, if it's there and you use it and it's beneficial, awesome. but we can't guarantee upkeep.
[13:50]	:	the similarity amongst alot of them is great
[13:50]	:	if a thrid party took 50% share of viewers used in SL would LL be concerned?
[13:50]	:	Techwolf, what do you mean, specifically? :)
[13:50]	:	Now I can search "link" and get the page on linking prims.
[13:51]	:	we did add Google search and autocomplete to wiki.secondlife.com awhile back... that was a big win!
[13:51]	:	Hmm... But would you call Microsoft for support on Google Chrome? It's very similar to IE... :-)
[13:51]	:	or even closer, calling Apple for support with Chrome... since Safari and Chrome are both on WebKit (which Shared Media is based on, too)...
[13:52]	:	i think its slightly different.. i mean the viewer gets us tot he lands that people rent and thats where LL make their money.. if they do it on another client they still make money so its a win win
[13:52]	:	well it would just be alot easier if y'all just said you just dont wanna
[13:53]	:	Honestly Bronson, that sort of decision is above me or Torley. We're mostly just speculating here based on what we do know.
[13:53]	:	and we shant speculate :)
[13:53]	:	hehe
[13:53]	:	not necessarily, Chaley, because other viewers may also be used to access open grids not officially supported by LL... so we really need to look at specifics.
[13:53]	:	one of my freands lost an expensive peice of furnature a wile back and and they said ll wouldnt help them to get it back unless they used the ll wiewer on a computer without emerald, why is this? shouldnt it be ok if the person needing support just logs in the the other viewer even if the other is installed?
[13:53]	:	At some point, you have to be refered to Microsoft, for the NOSMOKE software.
[13:53]	:	This question came up yesterday when I was chatting to others. Does LL still "muder" preminioum accounts by deleting there inventory for failure of payment?
[13:53]	:	LL could probably be successful not even supporting its own viewer
[13:54]	:	I understand DEbtorcide is no longer practiced by Jack Linden
[13:54]	:	holy crap "murder"?! that's a harsh, gangsta term! talk about anthropomorphizing an account!
[13:54]	:	Well, in a website vs. web-browser way, heh...
[13:54]	:	My support is somewhat limited, by lack of a Graphics Card.
[13:54]	:	Derek, support tip. Log into the LL client and file a support ticket from withen the client. That will bypass the emerald bullshit responce from support.
[13:54]	:	Techwolf, I'm not sure. I heard some talk about it more than a year ago... It seems odd, since something similar won't happen to a Basic account.
[13:55]	:	aah ok lol
[13:55]	:	good workaround Tech
[13:55]	:	A friend tryie dot downgrade her account, after removing Payment Info, and couldn't, do to some irrelevant policy
[13:56]	:	You can't upgrade, without payment info, but the software didn't consider the reverse.
[13:56]	:	I think she was tortured for an improper U$20
[13:57]	:	Did she contact Billing Support to get it straightened out? That seems unfair to her.
[13:58]	:	You have been online for 1 hours.
[13:58]	:	yesterday, I meet two SL users that had that happend to them. One didn't return for 6 months and will never upgrade. The other did came back after while, but the third will never came back after getting there inventory delete with no recourse.
[13:58]	:	oh thats because the old viewer was comlicated
[13:58]	:	Inventory loss is really tough for a lot of people.
 
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