AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2010-07-06

*[09:29] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
*[09:29] Latif Khalifa: hi
*[09:30] Rex Cronon: hi latif
*[09:30] Rex Cronon: AFK...............................
*[09:30] Rex Cronon: i will be afk for a few minutes
*[09:31] Latif Khalifa: kk
*[09:34] Mojito Sorbet: Look, it's Mary Poppins!
*[09:34] Fleep Tuque: Hehe
*[09:34] Fleep Tuque: been greeting at the Chilbo Faire
*[09:34] Fleep Tuque: Tons o n00bs
*[09:34] Fleep Tuque: laugh
*[09:34] Latif Khalifa: hehe
*[09:34] Fleep Tuque: Destination Guide is a blessing and a curse all in one!
*[09:35] Fleep Tuque: How to Sit 101!
*[09:35] Latif Khalifa: lol
*[09:35] Latif Khalifa: "SL is a world where sitting is hard and flying is easy" xD
*[09:35] Zha Ewry: /me Looks up and say 3 more minutes and I'll assume all tat's showing is showing
*[09:36] Morgaine Dinova: That's a topic all to itself: "Why is sitting in SL so hard?" And how it should be redesigned, from scratch.
*[09:36] Fleep Tuque: Indeed
*[09:36] Fleep Tuque: heh
*[09:36] Latif Khalifa: is it back to work day in the USA today?
*[09:37] Mojito Sorbet: yes
*[09:37] Fleep Tuque: Unfortunately
*[09:37] Fleep Tuque: :(
*[09:37] Mojito Sorbet: Some people take off 4 days vacation, so as to have 9 consecutive days
*[09:37] Fleep Tuque: Sitting is even harder now actually, that they removed the pie menu
*[09:37] Latif Khalifa: ah
*[09:37] Mojito Sorbet: Only for those people using V2 heh
*[09:37] Fleep Tuque: Well all n00bs are
*[09:37] Fleep Tuque: ;)
*[09:37] Mealea Ying: who removed the pie menu?
*[09:37] Latif Khalifa: people do that here over the easter holidays
*[09:38] Latif Khalifa: since in denmark thur, fri, and mon around the easter are days off
*[09:38] Fleep Tuque: Instead of big pie wedge you have to get it just right sammiched in between other menu choice3s.
*[09:38] Zha Ewry: While we're waiting on stragglers.. I have a topic or two
*[09:39] Latif Khalifa: (an interesting bit of news from Oz to registered TPV - he will be sharing usage and crash statistics with their respective devs)
*[09:39] Morgaine Dinova: Making tea is a good topic
*[09:39] Zha Ewry: As many have probably noticed, Meadhbh actually updated drafts. I've only had a chance to glance)
*[09:39] Zha Ewry: But.. Dahlia
*[09:39] Zha Ewry: /me sighs at her absence
*[09:40] Mojito Sorbet: WHat about Dahlia?
*[09:40] Zha Ewry: Noticed several what can only be described as continuing SL centric assumptions.
*[09:40] Zha Ewry: There was a nice little chat about one of them at ungodly hours
*[09:40] Zha Ewry: Only sighing a little
*[09:40] Morgaine Dinova: I was so furious at the new drafts, Zha, that I refrained from replying in order not to blow my top.
*[09:41] Zha Ewry: The total lack of picking up most comments?
*[09:41] Fleep Tuque: /me hasn't read them.
*[09:41] Morgaine Dinova: Fricking "single world" assumptions battle again. Even now, after they're no longer employed by LL
*[09:41] Zha Ewry: The single world, the "One ave at a time"
*[09:41] Fleep Tuque: I will note that it's much easier to edit a draft than to write the draft to begin with.
*[09:41] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: yes indeed. Zero has a 100% closed brain. If it didn't come from him, it didn't happen.
*[09:42] Zha Ewry: The chat is fixed and follows Linden's current deployment notions
*[09:42] Zha Ewry: tons of that
*[09:42] Zha Ewry: (5/10/100)
*[09:42] Saijanai Kuhn: well it goes back to the question: can one avatar be in two worlds (subworlds) at the same time if they have a mutual prsence thing going?
*[09:42] Zha Ewry: There are some nasty bits if you allow a single person to project an ave into two grids at the same time
*[09:42] Zha Ewry: but.. They are not unsolvable
*[09:43] Saijanai Kuhn: If I can TP from world A to world B, can I still keep the same ID in world A?
*[09:43] Mojito Sorbet: Why nopt?
*[09:43] Zha Ewry: ID is easy
*[09:43] Mojito Sorbet: If was not the same ID, then it wasnt a TP, it was a relog
*[09:43] Zha Ewry: its several aves at the same time, tha really gets hard
*[09:43] Saijanai Kuhn: I should say same name
*[09:43] Zha Ewry: And.. it may be tricky if one world has different name rules than aother, butt yes
*[09:43] Honour McMillan: stupid question - why would I want multiple av's at the same time?
*[09:44] Mojito Sorbet: To vote for each other in civic elections
*[09:44] Saijanai Kuhn: I'm socializing in SL and finghting bad things in WoW
*[09:44] Zha Ewry: At a meeting, but want to manage my store for a moment
*[09:44] Honour McMillan: ok :)
*[09:44] Zha Ewry: In an internal grid, but want to be visible int he external one.
*[09:44] Morgaine Dinova: Just because two agents have the same visual name while in two different worlds, doesn't mean that they're the same agent. It's verging on TRIVIAL for the software to keep them distinct when designed. So what's the issue? Treating them as one becomes a trivial issue of merging, when desired (eg. chat).
*[09:45] Zha Ewry: Where having multiple simulatanous presecnees gets wonky is actions like inventory, appearance and such, and what ends up saved,
*[09:45] Saijanai Kuhn: I generally don't want my SL inventory to mix with my WoW inventory
*[09:45] Latif Khalifa: are you talking about multiple simultaneous presences in one world?
*[09:45] Zha Ewry: Both
*[09:46] Saijanai Kuhn: goes back to definition of "one world"
*[09:46] Morgaine Dinova: You can be logged in to a pile of different websites without conflict using OpenID. There is no reason why there should be conflict in VWs either.
*[09:46] Zha Ewry: Because, honestly, the disctinction is trivial
*[09:46] Fleep Tuque: Yes but I want my inventory to travel with me to all the SL like grids.
*[09:46] Mojito Sorbet: With interlinked worlds, you have to work out, can you be logged in in two places at once?
*[09:46] Fleep Tuque: or opensim like grids or whatever the PC term is
*[09:46] Zha Ewry: In both case,s tho,, when I chaneg my shape, does it change?
*[09:46] Morgaine Dinova: We're talking about multiple VWs interoperating.
*[09:46] Saijanai Kuhn: if you can TP from A to B and B to C, are A and C part of the same world?
*[09:46] Fleep Tuque: I dunno that's confusing to me
*[09:46] Fleep Tuque: Me is Me
*[09:46] Zha Ewry: If I deleet or add an item to invenoty in instance 1, does instance 2 see it, and if so when?
*[09:46] Fleep Tuque: should be ME everywhere
*[09:47] Zha Ewry: totally agree fleep
*[09:47] Mojito Sorbet: So if multiple grids share some sort of login or authentication service, (1) can they even DETECT you are already logged in, and if so (2) what to do about it?
*[09:47] Zha Ewry: Ot...
*[09:47] Zha Ewry: NOT me, if I don't want it to be
*[09:47] Fleep Tuque: right
*[09:47] Morgaine Dinova: Your choice, whether to keep a single thread of virtual consciousness, or several.
*[09:47] Latif Khalifa: I fail to see the cost/benefit advantage of having multiple simultaneos presence in one world. The implementation is not at all trivial for very little gain imho
*[09:47] Mojito Sorbet: This is why there are alts
*[09:47] Fleep Tuque: Why, like tabbed browsing
*[09:47] Zha Ewry: Alts are very different than Mes.
*[09:48] Fleep Tuque: I would rreally prefer to have an avatar at the Faire landing spot right now
*[09:48] Fleep Tuque: to flip over from time to time and make sure no n00bs are caging each other.
*[09:48] Saijanai Kuhn: so if you have multiple avatars with the same (or different) names in different worlds, are they all soul mates?
*[09:48] Fleep Tuque: ut I can't cause I'm here
*[09:48] Rex Cronon: back
*[09:48] Zha Ewry: and having a FLeep Suque in the seperate spot is not the same
*[09:48] Fleep Tuque: Why is it any different than tabbed browsers?
*[09:48] Fleep Tuque: nod right
*[09:48] Mojito Sorbet: You cna always run two viewers.
*[09:49] Zha Ewry: Well, its messy because the whole "avatar" is not the same as glancing at a page
*[09:49] Rex Cronon: what if u can have only one avatar, but have multiple "ghost"?
*[09:49] Fleep Tuque: But it sort of is.
*[09:49] Morgaine Dinova: There's tons of situations where being present at N places simultaneously would be desireable. I really can't imagine why anyone would want to FORCE single agent location. Fine to choose it for themselves, but not impose the choice on others.
*[09:49] Mojito Sorbet: I have been in two sessions at once, in different worlds. Not for long, so as not to fry my gfx card
*[09:49] Rex Cronon: and u can control one ghost at a time
*[09:49] Fleep Tuque: I mean if I had tabs at the top right now where my landmark favorites are with all the places where my av is sitting..
*[09:49] Fleep Tuque: I could just flip between the,
*[09:49] Fleep Tuque: them
*[09:49] Zha Ewry: The major thing, is that people want it.
*[09:50] Zha Ewry: And the protocol probably ought to handle it
*[09:50] Morgaine Dinova: Control is just a client issue. The current client doesn't make it easy to control multiple.
*[09:50] Zha Ewry: (You don't have to use it, but preventing it.. Is bad)
*[09:50] Zha Ewry: Its more thanthat Morgaine
*[09:50] Fleep Tuque: And yeah if I' in this tab and put on a hat, I want the hat to show up everywhere.
*[09:50] Zha Ewry: If I log on in five laces
*[09:50] Zha Ewry: change my shape five times?
*[09:50] Zha Ewry: Do they sync?
*[09:50] Zha Ewry: Which one is the one I get on next login?
*[09:50] Zha Ewry: all sorts of odd bits
*[09:50] Zha Ewry: But.. All decribable
*[09:50] Saijanai Kuhn: I can see one of the librarians wanting to socialize and yet still keep a a prsence at the library reception desk...
*[09:50] Zha Ewry: (describabale
*[09:50] Fleep Tuque: nod Saij
*[09:51] Rex Cronon: on login u r one, but u can spanw multiple ghosts:)
*[09:51] Fleep Tuque: We'd see lots less "ITS ALL EMPTY" if we could do that. ;)
*[09:51] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: up to you. It'#s no more difficult for the client to do it for one than for several, if wanted. The poor CPU loves work.
*[09:51] Rex Cronon: ghost=sub-avatar of your main avatar
*[09:51] Latif Khalifa: heh, it's way more difficult
*[09:51] Zha Ewry: I can think of several models
*[09:51] Rex Cronon: your avatar gets to have his one avatars:)
*[09:52] Fleep Tuque: hmm so your av looks sort of ethereal when you're not in that active tab? ;)
*[09:52] Rex Cronon: his own avatae*
*[09:52] Zha Ewry: Thep oint being, the current spec totally blocsk even discussing it
*[09:52] Rex Cronon: yes fleep:)
*[09:52] Fleep Tuque: :)
*[09:52] Zha Ewry: And makes a bunch of other assumptions about the rgeater world
*[09:52] Rex Cronon: u can call them voids, terminals, ghosts...
*[09:52] Fleep Tuque: Let people decide how to handle the experience of multiple consciousness, but build it so they can. That's my vote. ;)
*[09:52] Rex Cronon: :)
*[09:53] Morgaine Dinova: Here's a related question, but a much harder one, and yet, possibly even more interesting: how about agents that continue being present in-world when you disconnect. That's a perfectly valid use case, and it scales better than the with-client use case.
*[09:53] Mojito Sorbet: Self-running bots?
*[09:53] Morgaine Dinova: Yep
*[09:53] Zha Ewry: Again, I don't think the protocol should block it
*[09:53] Rex Cronon: morgaine. those r AIs:)
*[09:53] Fleep Tuque: hmm. Can you explaina use case Morgaine?
*[09:53] Mojito Sorbet: What could POSSIBLY go wrong?! hahaha
*[09:53] Latif Khalifa: lol
*[09:53] Saijanai Kuhn: could have an option to tranfer control from a viewer to the server and back in at least some cases
*[09:53] Fleep Tuque: Why would I do that instead of just going afk that doesn't idle out
*[09:53] Zha Ewry: Well, the black/white morgaine bumps into the white/black facepainted morgaine, and the whole wold explodes
*[09:54] Morgaine Dinova: Mojito: lots could go wrong. But we're only making a protocol, not solving the implementations. The protocol should not BAR it.
*[09:54] Zha Ewry: Oh, wait, that's just strar trek
*[09:54] Fleep Tuque: hehe
*[09:54] Honour McMillan: /me thinks the amount of drama in vw's just exploded
*[09:54] Saijanai Kuhn: good universe or bad universe Zha?
*[09:54] Latif Khalifa: Morgaine, if you don't consider the implementation when desiginging a protocol, you are just making sure that there will be no implementatiton
*[09:54] Fleep Tuque: There's Dahlia :)
*[09:54] Mojito Sorbet: /me is trying to find the "rez an army of ninjas" HUD
*[09:55] Zha Ewry: I don't suggest that we try and do it withou discussingi t at all
*[09:55] Dahlia Trimble: hi :)
*[09:55] Saijanai Kuhn: Latif, or acknowledge that there are things you haven't thought of and leave extensibility in the protocol
*[09:55] Honour McMillan: uh oh
*[09:55] Zha Ewry: So.. I am proposing the folllowing
*[09:55] Morgaine Dinova: Latif: anyone can see a range of possible workable scenarios. What's unknown (through lack of experience) is what would result --- very much an emergent phenomenon.
*[09:55] Mojito Sorbet: AH, my army has arrived
*[09:56] Zha Ewry: I'd like a list of spots like this
*[09:56] Fleep Tuque: haha'
*[09:56] Zha Ewry: Things in the current dragts which
*[09:56] Zha Ewry: are singletons an might not be
*[09:56] Zha Ewry: assupmtions rooted in SL
*[09:56] Zha Ewry: assumptions rooted in current code
*[09:56] Zha Ewry: I'd like them enumerated, and then we cana ctually discuss how to look at them
*[09:57] Dahlia Trimble: OMG Ninjas!
*[09:57] Saijanai Kuhn: /me hears some strange chant about badgers in his head...
*[09:57] Fleep Tuque: Btw are these drafts on a wiki or googledoc or something somewhere?
*[09:57] Fleep Tuque: How do you contribute edits?
*[09:57] Mojito Sorbet: I am trying to find the OFF switch!
*[09:57] Fleep Tuque: laugh Mojito
*[09:57] Latif Khalifa: fleep, subscribe to https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vwrap
*[09:57] Saijanai Kuhn: http://www.badgerbadgerbadger.com/
*[09:57] Morgaine Dinova: They're really evil, the "assumptions rooted in SL", because we've been here so many years that we treat those assumptions as "normal", instead of as merely the first step in VW evolution.
*[09:57] Zha Ewry: There is a SVN
*[09:58] Saijanai Kuhn: ninjasninjasninjasninjas...
*[09:58] Zha Ewry: I think we need to push Mea to put the documents up to there
*[09:58] Fleep Tuque: Yeah I'm subscribed to the listserv, last time I looked they were word docs though
*[09:58] Fleep Tuque: not so good for collaborative writing
*[09:58] Zha Ewry: and The normal pattern is to proopose the issues on the listserve
*[09:58] Latif Khalifa: drafts are formal documents, you don't just edit them :)
*[09:58] Zha Ewry: and then they get edited up by somsone
*[09:58] Fleep Tuque: oh oh ok
*[09:58] Fleep Tuque: :)
*[09:58] Zha Ewry: An you have two choices
*[09:58] Fleep Tuque: Sorry I thought they were working drafts.
*[09:58] Zha Ewry: You can ask for the editor's token
*[09:59] Zha Ewry: or you can popose textual changes
*[09:59] Fleep Tuque: k
*[09:59] Zha Ewry: So, I'm thinking one thing which woudl be very good
*[09:59] Zha Ewry: would be to enumerate the places where we think there are problematic assumptions
*[09:59] Zha Ewry: and drag that over to the IETF process after some discussion here
*[09:59] Zha Ewry: For example
*[10:00] Zha Ewry: the "Logged on in two places" discussion
*[10:00] Zha Ewry: Tehre are about 10 typical resonses people have to it
*[10:00] Morgaine Dinova: So far we've not actually had working drafts. We've only had documents created out of thin air by individual writers, without discussion, and SO FAR, the great majority have not had even a single revision after discussions.
*[10:00] Zha Ewry: And I'd like to have them discussed first
*[10:01] Latif Khalifa: i have not seen proposal for changes Morgain, in the format required "paragrapj xxxx text yyy should be replaced by zzzz"
*[10:01] Zha Ewry: Well, I'd liketo see
*[10:01] Zha Ewry: "This needs to be addressed" as well.
*[10:02] Mojito Sorbet: There, I think I killed it
*[10:02] Honour McMillan: :)
*[10:02] Fleep Tuque: I guess that was what I was asking, what's the process if I have a suggestion for change, so to speak
*[10:02] Fleep Tuque: Seems like there SHOULD be a "working draft" on wiki or googledocs somewhere.
*[10:02] Morgaine Dinova: Latif: good point. Instead of blowing my top at the latest new documents, I'll try that kind of approach first.
*[10:03] Zha Ewry: The draft posted to the IETF pages is the current working draft
*[10:03] Zha Ewry: So, comments get made against it
*[10:03] Latif Khalifa: Fleep, you email to the list with proposed text change
*[10:03] Zha Ewry: You have two choices
*[10:03] Nicky Perian: sorry have to go rl tc folks
*[10:03] Zha Ewry: You can make comments
*[10:03] Rex Cronon: tc
*[10:03] Mojito Sorbet: If the process gets too formal early on you get edits like "Replace all of section 2 with what *I* think"
*[10:03] Zha Ewry: Or you can propose new langauge
*[10:03] Fleep Tuque: Where? Just on the listserv? That's a heck of a hard way to collaboratively write something.
*[10:03] Honour McMillan: bye Nicky
*[10:03] Zha Ewry: or.. you can write another draft
*[10:03] Zha Ewry: Its VERY 1980s fleeps
*[10:03] Fleep Tuque: ok
*[10:03] Fleep Tuque: sorry
*[10:03] Fleep Tuque: still learning the process.
*[10:03] Fleep Tuque: :)
*[10:04] Latif Khalifa: it's the way IETF works
*[10:04] Zha Ewry: The IETF theory
*[10:04] Zha Ewry: is that if you have a clay tablet and a wood stick
*[10:04] Zha Ewry: you should be able to comment on a draft
*[10:04] Saijanai Kuhn: so when is IETF switching to google wave?
*[10:04] Latif Khalifa: lol
*[10:04] Fleep Tuque: doesn't stop people from pulling out a paragraph under discussion and wikiying it up though, right?
*[10:04] Rex Cronon: where do u get clay tablets and sticks?
*[10:04] Zha Ewry: That's your problem
*[10:04] Mojito Sorbet: And if all submissions have to be in ASCII text, it makes it hard to draw pictures
*[10:04] Saijanai Kuhn: google clay
*[10:04] Dahlia Trimble: IETF endorse google? heh
*[10:05] Zha Ewry: but you should be able to do it in ascii and push the comment in an e-mail
*[10:05] Morgaine Dinova: On the whole, the IETF email method works, except for one type of content: images. It kind of falls down when you can only describe architectural issues with words.
*[10:05] Zha Ewry: totally lands on its ascii-8 backside there
*[10:06] Zha Ewry: I badly want simple pictures
*[10:06] Dahlia Trimble: I've seen ascii art in drafts
*[10:06] Rex Cronon: u can describe anything with words
*[10:06] Zha Ewry: Up to a point, sure
*[10:06] Rex Cronon: is just that in some cases u might have to use lots of words
*[10:06] Zha Ewry: Its hard to do beyond very simple ascii art
*[10:06] Zha Ewry: UML sequence dirgarams for example
*[10:06] Zha Ewry: not so much
*[10:07] Morgaine Dinova: Maybe IETF should run their own imageshack, for non-formal images that persist forever to provide the mailing list with graphic content.
*[10:07] Rex Cronon: u don't a PHd in writing to describe something in writing:)
*[10:07] Morgaine Dinova: A picture often tells it better and more clearly, Rex.
*[10:08] Zha Ewry: So..
*[10:08] Zha Ewry: My lists inclues:
*[10:08] Zha Ewry: Presence
*[10:08] Zha Ewry: (as in multiple)
*[10:08] Zha Ewry: Asset / inventory singletons
*[10:08] Fleep Tuque: Presence(s)
*[10:08] Zha Ewry: Regions size/shape fixedness
*[10:08] Zha Ewry: Regoin property fixedness
*[10:08] Dahlia Trimble: property?
*[10:09] Zha Ewry: And a pile of places where there are fixed sets of things, rather than maps of things
*[10:09] Zha Ewry: So, chat distance
*[10:09] Zha Ewry: Voice falloff
*[10:09] Dahlia Trimble: ah
*[10:09] Rex Cronon: correct morgaine. i am just saying that words can explain anyithing, although sometimes in a more lengthy and/or convoluted way:)
*[10:09] Zha Ewry: Wherey ou can parcel things
*[10:09] Morgaine Dinova: Good list, Zha
*[10:10] Zha Ewry: I'm wondering what I've missed
*[10:10] Zha Ewry: ( I know I have)
*[10:10] Zha Ewry: And the casual
*[10:10] Dahlia Trimble: I remember seeing mention of chat crossing region boundaries too, that seemed SL specific to me, or at least not protocol dependant
*[10:10] Zha Ewry: "Regoin property" tag
*[10:10] Zha Ewry: is HUGE
*[10:10] Mojito Sorbet: Now, what was theat a list of?
*[10:10] Zha Ewry: As in
*[10:10] Rex Cronon: well. when u will try to implement it, u will see:)
*[10:10] Zha Ewry: How many prims you can have
*[10:10] Zha Ewry: How many types of prims you support
*[10:11] Fleep Tuque: Mojito - concerns with the current drafts
*[10:11] Fleep Tuque: things to discuss further
*[10:11] Zha Ewry: All the things you might want to know about a regoin in a heterogenous world
*[10:11] Fleep Tuque: and amend to be less SL specific perhaps
*[10:11] Mojito Sorbet: Gravitational Constant
*[10:12] Saijanai Kuhn: any conceivable kind of physics]
*[10:12] Dahlia Trimble: it just seemed a lot of what I was reading was how SL works currently, not what goes over the wire
*[10:12] Rex Cronon: multiple gravity points:)
*[10:12] Saijanai Kuhn: mc excher support'
*[10:12] Saijanai Kuhn: escher
*[10:13] Morgaine Dinova: The scripting model is another assumption from SL, and a nasty one.
*[10:13] Zha Ewry: Which part of it?
*[10:14] Morgaine Dinova: Even just the basic architecture, eg. scripts run world-side only.
*[10:15] Latif Khalifa: /me hasn't notice mentions of scripting in the available drafts. did i miss something?
*[10:15] Rex Cronon: people would a lot more conscious of their scripts if the run locally:)
*[10:15] Morgaine Dinova: I've long advocated for two-part scripting, each object having both world-side and client-side active parts.
*[10:15] Zha Ewry: Its not there, much and it would ne nice if it was
*[10:15] Rex Cronon: would be a lot*
*[10:15] Dahlia Trimble: I didnt see scripting either, but I've only breifly scanned a couple of the drafts
*[10:15] Latif Khalifa: so there are no scripting assumptions, SL insipired or otherwise
*[10:15] Zha Ewry: Well..
*[10:16] Zha Ewry: So.. there are two issues lurking here
*[10:16] Zha Ewry: One.. I don't think anyone expects, in the near term, scripts to easily hop between worlds, which is its own nightmare
*[10:16] Zha Ewry: ie. a sim side AO hopping from one grid to another reuires a LOT of cooperatoin and a lot of compatibility and deep trust
*[10:16] Morgaine Dinova: Latif: VWRAP has only considered some 15-20% of relevant VW issues so far. No, scripting has not been considered, except during a couple of months during MMOX.
*[10:17] Dahlia Trimble: so far the only way I know for scripts to cross into other worlds is in source code form
*[10:17] Latif Khalifa: Morgaine, you're an optimist :D
*[10:17] Morgaine Dinova: Latif: you could be right, maybe 10%. But it's hard to quantify the number.
*[10:17] Fleep Tuque: So my hair can come with me but my AO can;t?
*[10:18] Latif Khalifa: so far the only tanglible work has been the type system
*[10:18] Morgaine Dinova: Yep
*[10:18] Fleep Tuque: Though if AO is in the viewer instead of the avatar, that resolves that, no?
*[10:18] Zha Ewry: The AO is hard to move, because its runnign state
*[10:18] Rex Cronon: dahlia. that can't be true. so many people say is possible to reverse-egineer things. certainly, scripts can't be such a big of a problem:)
*[10:18] Latif Khalifa: login is getting close to be defined, but no implementations exists
*[10:18] Latif Khalifa: so type system + partial login is all we got
*[10:18] Zha Ewry: Well, I've built one, jurliman has one, and I think, Linden sort of had one
*[10:18] Dahlia Trimble: Rex, LOL
*[10:19] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: the AO is a classic example of scripting that should be 100% client-side.
*[10:19] Latif Khalifa: Zha, which client support vwrap authentication?
*[10:19] Fleep Tuque: nod
*[10:19] Morgaine Dinova: And hence fully portable.
*[10:19] Fleep Tuque: I never understood why it wasn';t to begin with.
*[10:19] Latif Khalifa: as specified in the dfraft?
*[10:19] Zha Ewry: snowglobe 1.3 had support rolled in
*[10:20] Fleep Tuque: ah, one of the things lost in v2 mess?
*[10:20] Zha Ewry: before a certain vw hosting company chopped off interop at the knees
*[10:20] Latif Khalifa: afaik snowgobe has anciend ogp spec from 18 montsa ago and nothing else
*[10:20] Fleep Tuque: :(
*[10:20] Saijanai Kuhn: I'm not sure if even pyogp has VWRAP support any more
*[10:21] Zha Ewry: The patch Pixel submitted to snowglobe
*[10:21] Zha Ewry: includes
*[10:21] Zha Ewry: vwrap style login, and inventory fetch via cap
*[10:21] Zha Ewry: Not entirely elegent, but worked out
*[10:21] Latif Khalifa: so let's be honest, beyond the working type system, we have very little else... some initial work on login at that's it
*[10:22] Morgaine Dinova: The old OGP functionality in PhOGP almost certainly doesn't work anymore, because apparently it didn't get updated through the major changes, and so would require a miracle to still work.
*[10:22] Morgaine Dinova: PyOGP*
*[10:23] Morgaine Dinova: But despite that, Enus recently restarted work on PyOGP. Not sure if it's related to the change in management, but it coincided with it.
*[10:23] Zha Ewry: So.. That is the second topic
*[10:24] Zha Ewry: Assuming the LInden Lab team is AWOL for a while, can we get good forawrd progress with OpenSim and similar?
*[10:24] Zha Ewry: Is it worth doing even?
*[10:24] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: not only worth doing, but inevitable :-)
*[10:24] Fleep Tuque: I should note that when SLCC board met with LL, we specifically requested someone to speak on the topic of interop/opensim/TPVs and they didn't freak out, but also haven't committed anything yet.
*[10:24] Zha Ewry: (and I assume, Linden will either come back when they m ust, or become irrlevent)
*[10:24] Latif Khalifa: Zha, I doubt VWRAP will have that much traction to be honest
*[10:24] Fleep Tuque: We are meeting again this week.
*[10:25] Saijanai Kuhn: Latif, depends: will LL allow at least TP between worlds even if inventory and what not aren't yet supported?
*[10:25] Rex Cronon: there is another possibility. something new might show up:)
*[10:25] Techwolf Lupindo: Enus is working on a phython client for automated testing.
*[10:26] Dahlia Trimble: I'm sure there is a lot of interest in interop among OpenSim users and contributors
*[10:26] Saijanai Kuhn: TechWolf, yeah, but part of that testing originally was going to be the OGP stuff. Hence the name
*[10:26] Latif Khalifa: Sai, LL is in maintanence mode. they cannot afford to work on the future of their own platform, much less on adding interop features
*[10:26] Dahlia Trimble: not sure if it's all VWRAP focused tho
*[10:26] Fleep Tuque: (noob ?: what does OGP stand for?)
*[10:26] Saijanai Kuhn: Open Grid Protocol
*[10:26] Fleep Tuque: thx
*[10:27] Zha Ewry: Open Gird Prootocl
*[10:27] Zha Ewry: Linden's first attempt at a name
*[10:27] Fleep Tuque: And fwiw, I think Latif is right.
*[10:27] Dahlia Trimble: a VWRAP viewer patch shared among various viewer devs would help a lot
*[10:27] Zha Ewry: I don't think Linden is going to do any serious interop work until they sort out thier current mess
*[10:27] Latif Khalifa: Fleep, OGP was original name for VWRAP until nit-pickers objected to the world "grid" because they thought it implied 2d flat world (just shows you how productive the debate in tehse forums are)
*[10:27] Fleep Tuque: Forge ahead without them, if you wait for them, you'll be waiting long time is my guess.
*[10:27] Morgaine Dinova: Looks to me like VWRAP has a ton of traction. Hurli's working towards that model directly, and he's unstoppable. And, very importantly, he seems to be on a sensible track, and supports multi-world interop. So it looks to me like we have a huge amount of traction on the practical front, and unless there are major problems with it, then I see it as the basis of VWRAP work on standards.
*[10:27] Morgaine Dinova: (To Latif)
*[10:28] Zha Ewry: Abnd in some serious sense they can't do anything because they don't have an easy path to allowing the grid to open, I suspeect
*[10:28] Fleep Tuque: Even if they wanted to
*[10:28] Fleep Tuque: whover "they" is these days.
*[10:28] Zha Ewry: Linden?
*[10:28] Fleep Tuque: yeah
*[10:28] Saijanai Kuhn: they can always create a telepad sim if they want to, even on the main grid
*[10:28] Zha Ewry: There are still some solid devs lurkign in the shop
*[10:29] Zha Ewry: But, if this weekend was any indicatoin, they are going to be busy bailoing out the bilges
*[10:29] Morgaine Dinova: What happened on the weekend?
*[10:29] Latif Khalifa: no doubt they have quality devs, but they also have braindead exec management team
*[10:29] Fleep Tuque: inventory issues
*[10:29] Rex Cronon: 1.40 rollback
*[10:29] Fleep Tuque: and rollback
*[10:29] Zha Ewry: They had to roll back 1.40.2 because it killed people' stuffs
*[10:29] Dahlia Trimble: lots of 1.40 sim issues last weekend
*[10:30] Zha Ewry: and people still have stuff in limbo
*[10:30] Fleep Tuque: nod
*[10:30] Latif Khalifa: they are so short-sighted if it was not tragic it would've been funny
*[10:30] Morgaine Dinova: Ah, yeah, the system falling apart. But don't blame that on management.
*[10:30] Saijanai Kuhn: Enus' project should be the highest priority project in all of LL and yet its the lowest
*[10:30] Dahlia Trimble: LOL Morgaine
*[10:30] Morgaine Dinova: AFAIAA, M didn't write any C++ code.
*[10:31] Zha Ewry: Well, a lack of testing, and resouce and then total lack of transparency about what's going on, is at least somewhat a management issue, btu yes
*[10:31] Fleep Tuque: He doodled! And had meetins. (Sorry couldn't resist)
*[10:31] Zha Ewry: M didn't code the bugs
*[10:31] Zha Ewry: Just put in place the teams and priorities which let them flourish
*[10:31] Latif Khalifa: nobody writes bug free code. but managers put process in place, and decide on what priorities are
*[10:32] Zha Ewry: The base 1.40.2 bug, is if you are logged into a sim which crashesh stuff gets badly bnorked.
*[10:32] Fleep Tuque: The lack of transparency is the single biggest issue that drags everything down.
*[10:32] Zha Ewry: That should have shonw up in testing
*[10:32] Latif Khalifa: i agree Feep
*[10:32] Fleep Tuque: People have absolutely no idea what they are going to do./decide/;change tomorrow
*[10:33] Fleep Tuque: You can't expect people to contribute and invest in that kind of environment.
*[10:33] Dahlia Trimble: I've lost attachments in sim crashes long before 1.40
*[10:33] Rex Cronon: considering how many people go to beta to test things, can u really blame the linens:)
*[10:33] Saijanai Kuhn: Rex, programmable bots that do randomish things are pefectly doable with pyogp and libomv. THe only thing you can't test right now are the graphics related stuff
*[10:34] Zha Ewry: This was way more brutal than lost attachments
*[10:34] Morgaine Dinova: Well that's what you get with monolithic code, one bad line can screw up the whole kaboodle. It's not the way to write complex systems.
*[10:34] Saijanai Kuhn: and in fact, on the mac, you CAN test the graphics stuff... Instruments is pretty slick
*[10:34] Zha Ewry: if you were on a 1.40.2 sim which crahed ou lost the attachment
*[10:34] Rex Cronon: those bots aren't that easy to write, and they certainly don't write themselves:)
*[10:34] Zha Ewry: and permananetly had the spot blocked by the bad item
*[10:35] Saijanai Kuhn: a proper scripting language client-side WOULD allow you to automate the scripting
*[10:35] Dahlia Trimble: graphics with bots on a Mac? now that's impressive
*[10:35] Saijanai Kuhn: Dahlia, bots with the reguar viewer
*[10:37] Morgaine Dinova: As we're into the last half hour, do we have any ideas for future non-SL meetings? And Dahlia, did you manage to gather any data on the crashes last week?
*[10:37] Saijanai Kuhn: http://developer.apple.com/mac/library/documentation/DeveloperTools/Conceptual/InstrumentsUserGuide/WorkingWithaMasterTrack/WorkingWithaMasterTrack.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40004652-CH8-SW1
*[10:38] Morgaine Dinova: I was really impressed at the turnout last week. :-)
*[10:38] Fleep Tuque: Despite the crashing, I think it's worth doing
*[10:38] Zha Ewry: Iwould like t try and OWL sim atsome point. It hink we can ask Maggie to chase it
*[10:38] Dahlia Trimble: they were mono crashes Morgaine, they didn't make it into the log file :(
*[10:38] Fleep Tuque: Good experience and good reminder of what we're working for in the first place.
*[10:38] Zha Ewry: Oh, pooh, Dahlia.
*[10:38] Morgaine Dinova: Groupies showed a lot of committment, and of course Dahlia did a lot of good work :-)
*[10:38] Zha Ewry: Those are pissy to sort out
*[10:38] Dahlia Trimble: next time I'll try windows
*[10:38] Honour McMillan: /me is sorry she missed it!
*[10:39] Rex Cronon: u only missed crashes
*[10:39] Zha Ewry: And some good discussion
*[10:39] Morgaine Dinova: What parts of Mono crash? Or is not even that known?
*[10:39] Latif Khalifa: Rex, don't be evil lol
*[10:39] Saijanai Kuhn: Dhalia, did you click on that link?
*[10:39] Dahlia Trimble: dunno, the stack traces scrolled off the console
*[10:39] Latif Khalifa: we had productive discussion inbetween crashes too ;)
*[10:40] Morgaine Dinova: Mono is quite a liability. Pity that.
*[10:40] Rex Cronon: sometimes the truth looks that way:)
*[10:40] Latif Khalifa: yeah Dahlia, rewrite it in elrang :P
*[10:41] Dahlia Trimble: speaking of erlang: http://www.codexon.com/posts/debunking-the-erlang-and-haskell-hype-for-servers
*[10:41] Morgaine Dinova: If one could identify what is crashing in Mono, then that part could certainly be rewritten in Erlang.
*[10:42] Zha Ewry: So.. I strongly encourage people to read the drafts and look for the assumptions and I would love to list them out, and takl about how to tackle some of them
*[10:43] Fleep Tuque: In terms of process, and speeding it up, once the issues are identified it will be easier for people to work on one or two than try to suggest fixes for all of them. Breaking it down into manageable pieces.
*[10:43] Dahlia Trimble: I'll try to scan thru them and I'll probably find more to whine about, but I dont know if I can make time to suggest alternate text
*[10:43] Zha Ewry: Dahlia, if you have issues that bother you
*[10:44] Zha Ewry: Get them out here, and I'll see how to help with the later
*[10:44] Dahlia Trimble: in that vein, thanks to all the contributors for the efforts so far :)
*[10:44] Fleep Tuque: Evenif you don't have time to write the text, just shouting out when you see something of concern is good.
*[10:44] Zha Ewry: I'm looking for what I've missed
*[10:44] Zha Ewry: exactly fleep
*[10:44] Zha Ewry: I have my list
*[10:44] Zha Ewry: and I'll be readin to grow it out
*[10:44] Zha Ewry: but more eyes and more brains would be very good
*[10:47] Zha Ewry: k
*[10:47] Zha Ewry: Looksl ike we're out of steam for today
*[10:47] Zha Ewry: Anyone else who wants to nominate a world to meet in, should do so
*[10:47] Zha Ewry: Either a totally seperate one (such as OWL) or another grid we should try in OpenSim land.
*[10:47] Fleep Tuque: I'll nominate Reaction Grid if I get a chance to chat with Kyle later this week
*[10:48] Dahlia Trimble: OWL would be fun
*[10:48] Fleep Tuque: but for now must run
*[10:48] Morgaine Dinova: Both :-)
*[10:48] Fleep Tuque: see y'all later
*[10:48] Latif Khalifa: OWL?
*[10:48] Morgaine Dinova: Cyu Fleep :-)
*[10:48] Rex Cronon: tc
*[10:48] Dahlia Trimble: would a croquet meeting work?
*[10:49] Saijanai Kuhn: they just released their officiual alpha 1.0 for croquet bTW
*[10:52] Rex Cronon: i guess meeting is over?
*[10:52] Honour McMillan: kk bye all - til next week :)
*[10:52] Zha Ewry: Croquet is totally on the table if we want it
*[10:52] Rex Cronon: tc
*[10:52] Dahlia Trimble: bye :)
*[10:52] Saijanai Kuhn: I'll mention it to Croquet Hax. Not sure when we could have a full meeting on an island though
*[10:52] Latif Khalifa: i'm not installing new clients to go to a vwrap meeting :P
*[10:53] Rex Cronon: i am with latif on this one:)
*[10:53] Dahlia Trimble: Croquet is kinda fun but I needed someone to tell me how to use it
*[10:53] Zha Ewry: Well, every so often a fild trip is interesting
*[10:53] Saijanai Kuhn: Talk to Croquet Hax or Tapple Gao next time they're on, Dahlia
*[10:54] Dahlia Trimble: ya they helped me last time I tried it
*[10:54] Zha Ewry: OK, everyone, we can look at field trip options. And possibly plan some more
*[10:54] Saijanai Kuhn: it got better....
*[10:54] Zha Ewry: I think once a month, its worth doing.
*[10:54] Latif Khalifa: andrew hold OH in 5 min, will be interesting to hear what happened with 1.40
*[10:54] Zha Ewry: /me strretches
*[10:54] Morgaine Dinova: It's pretty important to experience different worlds, else you get wholly ingrained in the SL/Opensim experience. VWs are bigger than just that.
*[10:54] Zha Ewry: Dang its hot
*[10:54] Latif Khalifa: pretty cool in denmark today
*[10:55] Zha Ewry: 100F in NYC today
*[10:55] Saijanai Kuhn: cheee
*[10:55] Rex Cronon: time to go to andrew's oh. tc everybody
*[10:55] Rex Cronon: and have fun:)
*[10:55] Latif Khalifa: 18C here
*[10:55] Dahlia Trimble: ouch
*[10:55] Apollo Reinard: thanks for the listen. cu all.
*[10:55] Saijanai Kuhn: its not much hotter than that in TUcson, AZ
*[10:55] Latif Khalifa: that's about 65F i think
*[10:55] Dahlia Trimble: cool here today
*[10:55] Zha Ewry: What amazes me, is that I totally dress in SL based on the RL heat.
*[10:56] Latif Khalifa: hehehe
*[10:56] Dahlia Trimble: LOL I do that too
*[10:56] Zha Ewry: anyone got a slurl ot Andy's OH?
*[10:56] Saijanai Kuhn: /me just tries to never go outside during sunlight hours, at least int eh summer
*[10:57] XLR8RRICK Hudson: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Denby/213/45/34 (Starts in 4 minutes)
*[10:57] Dahlia Trimble: /me is poofing out of here... bye all :)
*[10:57] Saijanai Kuhn: laters
[Category:Grid_Interoperability_Chat_Logs]]
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