Scripting User group/Transcripts/2011-03-28

== List of Attendees ==
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== Transcript ==
[09:01]	:	hey kelly
[09:01]	:	Hey!
[09:01]	:	Good morning.
[09:01]	:	Hi Kelly!
[09:01]	:	Hey kelly.
[09:02]	:	How is everyone?
[09:02]	:	hi kelly
[09:02]	:	It's 9am on a Monday.
[09:02]	:	pretty good, and yourself?
[09:02]	:	doing awesome then I take it, Stickman?
[09:02]	:	You know it.
[09:02]	:	I am doing all right.
[09:02]	:	You should remove the 1 second sleep from llModPow so I may properly crack 32bit rsa using LSL. Surely you must agree this is useful functionality. :>
[09:02]	:	Give it a couple more minutes for any stragglers to show up.
[09:02]	:	;)
[09:03]	:	Zwagoth! Think of all the scripts that might break.
[09:03]	:	Haha
[09:03]	:	Breaking scripts isn't the intention.
[09:03]	:	llModPowFast
[09:03]	:	What uses llModPow?
[09:03]	:	does anything use modpow?
[09:03]	:	The one example script that shows how to use it
[09:04]	:	Grep the database of scripts in the asset server and report a count per owner.
[09:04]	:	I'm gonna just say that if you really need that fast for modpow maybe you shouldn't be using LSL.
[09:04]	:	:> But I must crack 32bit RSA in LSL!
[09:05]	:	heh
[09:05]	:	Use multiple scripts!
[09:05]	:	You can fit 1k in an object before it refuses to rez.
[09:05]	:	You'd need like, 40k scripts in order to get the same speed as if there was no 1 second delay!
[09:05]	:	I will have to resort to wasting resources. *sadface*
[09:05]	:	So use 40 objects! Problem solved. You'll need to rez them individually, though.
[09:06]	:	Make sure you use a public sandbox. Or better yet -- the corner of four sims on different servers.
[09:06]	:	The amount of overhead though, would slow it down so much, to where it'd just be useless!
[09:06]	:	That function is so trivial, surely you can just do it in LSL yourself without the sleep?
[09:06]	:	:> Yes. I could.
[09:06]	:	I'm trolling.
[09:06]	:	heh
[09:06]	:	stickman i s so helpful
[09:06]	:	Oh, we were joking? RIGHT! I was joking! Haha.
[09:07]	:	All right then! I suppose we should get started.
[09:07]	:	Mmm
[09:07]	:	Though I do think the sleep should be removed :>
[09:07]	:	yes igotta question
[09:07]	:	Some of you may have noticed that I'm not on the user group lists!
[09:07]	:	now!
[09:07]	:	ooh
[09:07]	:	Yes!
[09:07]	:	not not.
[09:07]	:	yes i complained at the user tools meeting kelly and rand added you
[09:08]	:	Draconis is causing order. Someone ban him.
[09:08]	:	Oh? I didn't know he did that. I had andrew fill in all the details for me. I'm technically a subset of his server/sim/scripting group.
[09:08]	:	rand changed the main table
[09:08]	:	Ah, cool.
[09:08]	:	I managed to get my past transcripts up last week as well.
[09:09]	:	oh, that reminds me. The tweet for this meeting didn't include slurl in the link, so my browser wanted to sent me to Ambleside Alberta... and I didn't have the miles on Air Canada.
[09:09]	:	Added em to andrew's fancy calendar https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Server/Sim/Scripting_User_Group
[09:09]	:	heh Qie, I will have to look into that then.
[09:10]	:	hehe i had to resort and to copy and paste to get here
[09:10]	:	Ok, I'll get that fixed. I dunno what the tweet works from.
[09:10]	:	Probably just got the format wrong.
[09:12]	:	Other news: mono2-performance is now up on aditi. I have a couple reports of script errors I'm gonna investigate now. I know at least some are bogus (crashed scripts reporting extra errors) but it looks like there may be at least one real bug.
[09:12]	:	How much faster is it?
[09:12]	:	for most things probably not noticable
[09:13]	:	it should remove the sim-stall when lots of mono scripts are added to the region though.
[09:13]	:	Oh
[09:13]	:	does this mean that from now on all scripts should be mono instead of LSO? or is there still the de-rez issue?
[09:13]	:	I dunno about de-rez.
[09:13]	:	so when people wearing monoscripts tp in the sim wont stop?
[09:14]	:	Attica that is the idea
[09:14]	:	yesssss
[09:14]	:	thank you:)
[09:14]	:	Right now the only thing holding me back from using LSL instead of Mono (sometimes) is the reported Mono usage always being 64k. It's one thing to explain to people it's not true, it's another thing to have a ton of people you can't explain it to assume you're a terrible person.
[09:14]	:	Er, using Mono instead of LSL.
[09:15]	:	have to untick mono or youare griefing if you do a script wth lots of timers or apoofer
[09:15]	:	i dotnknow why
[09:15]	:	yea, could we get the reporting fixed?
[09:15]	:	but runa two poofer isn mono and the sim slows down
[09:15]	:	"apoofer"?
[09:15]	:	I'm gonna get a new build out today that removes some of the bogus error spam. If anyone has time to try out rezing and playing with scripts in the mono regions on aditi it will be helpful.
[09:16]	:	particles
[09:16]	:	Why would it being in mono be "griefing" for particle script?
[09:16]	:	That reporting is not going to get "fixed".
[09:16]	:	Wow!
[09:16]	:	llLinkParticlesystem(LINK_SET, lPoofer);
[09:16]	:	got any samples to play with on mono, or do you want random user scripts ;-)
[09:16]	:	I'll try that one.
[09:16]	:	Random user scripts, existing scripts etc.
[09:16]	:	becaus eit slows asim down moy, noticable to the whole sim
[09:17]	:	okay, I'll be on there later ;-)
[09:17]	:	A script that's spamming particles non-stop on every prim? Or just something that sets particles one time?
[09:17]	:	Particles are a prim property, rendered clientside. It'll slow down people with particle rendering enabled, but it's client-lag, not region-lag.
[09:17]	:	Exactly
[09:17]	:	Besides, scripts technically can't lag anything but other scripts.
[09:18]	:	Physics, etc, are higher priority, and take the frame time before scripts do.
[09:18]	:	must be tons of calls to llParticleSystem() if it's gonna affect the sim.
[09:18]	:	saming nonstop
[09:18]	:	So what's on the todo list for scripts, Kelly? What are the next things coming down the pipe? :D
[09:19]	:	I've done while(1){llSleep(0.01);llLinkParitlceSystem(LINK_SET,spam)} on day one when they added it on the betagrid to see how much lag would be caused, sim was fine, but it used like 3megs/second of bandwidth
[09:19]	:	A 256 prim linkset
[09:19]	:	I'd like to do 'small scripts' but I'm not sure exactly when I will get to it. Getting mono2-performance released is a pre-requesite for it.
[09:19]	:	Kelly, now that Hide URL is being removed from the viewer for media, any chance we can finally get a llGetMediaIRL() function?
[09:20]	:	I've noticed that STORM-1099, my "show script name on script complaint" that was discussed on the scripting mailing list was "noticed."
[09:20]	:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-1099 
[#STORM-1099] Show script name when the script complains
[09:20]	:	cool. Dunno if they can do that in the viewer.
[09:20]	:	I'm not sure the viewer has that info.
[09:21]	:	Ima: It is certainly worth a jira if there isn't one already.
[09:21]	:	Speaking of .....
[09:21]	:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SCR-1
[09:21]	:	hows the visibility on that jira? Can everyone see it?
[09:21]	:	Yes
[09:21]	:	yup
[09:21]	:	Good.
[09:22]	:	I can se eit
[09:22]	:	Have to log in
[09:22]	:	but I can see it
[09:22]	:	Not as guest, but yes.
[09:22]	:	thats cool you got your own jira catagory though
[09:22]	:	Login in... automatically...
[09:22]	:	Now comes the tricky part. Right under the top 'Bug Tracker' one of the links should be 'Agile'
[09:22]	:	logged in automatically
[09:22]	:	yes
[09:22]	:	yes agile is there
[09:22]	:	I see it.
[09:23]	:	If you click that. And then ... hm, let me get an image up.
[09:23]	:	I see SRC-1, 14, and 15.
[09:24]	:	I don't have an Administration link. :<
[09:24]	:	hehe
[09:24]	:	Ok, so there ... If you get it like that: Notice the bottom right 'Script Backlog'
[09:24]	:	I don't see backlog
[09:25]	:	You may have to click the down triangle to choose another option
[09:25]	:	You gotta click on "unscheduled" and open the dropdown.
[09:25]	:	You probably default to seeing 'Unscheduled'
[09:25]	:	yes, I had unscheduled
[09:25]	:	I don't see Script Backlog in the list
[09:25]	:	that explains where 2-13 went too
[09:26]	:	It should be at the bottom. I'll play with it to see if I can get it near the top
[09:26]	:	Ahh there it goes.
[09:26]	:	when i click script backlog it says no matching issues found
[09:26]	:	This is actually a (roughly) ordered backlog.
[09:26]	:	oh
[09:26]	:	just came up
[09:26]	:	draconis: you have all the other pieces right?
[09:26]	:	when i refreshed
[09:27]	:	ah, right. This is some amazing dhtml crap.
[09:27]	:	hahaha
[09:27]	:	Didn't we determine SRC-5 (llGetUnixTimeNanos()) wouldn't be useful? Or was there a significant argument otherwise?
[09:27]	:	not my favorite system in the world.
[09:27]	:	These issues were all from my list of triaged jiras
[09:27]	:	so, what about old script related jira's? should the be moved or duplicated to this new category?
[09:27]	:	ooh i see unbundle PRIM_ rules, that looks amazing
[09:27]	:	the important ones
[09:28]	:	They should be moved!
[09:28]	:	okie ^^
[09:28]	:	Do we have the ability to move them, or can we only point them out?
[09:28]	:	This is an exploration time though. So, can you guys reorder this list? (You shouldn't be able to)
[09:29]	:	seems that i can
[09:29]	:	yes I can
[09:29]	:	i need a way to find out how laggy a script is for cargo cult and unwashed scripters without estate rights
[09:29]	:	oh! does it look like a list or like cards?
[09:29]	:	yes i can
[09:29]	:	reorder them
[09:29]	:	cards for me
[09:29]	:	cards
[09:29]	:	On the right there is 'new card' 'views' 'tools' if you click the views, there is a 'list' option.
[09:29]	:	I find that view much better.
[09:29]	:	I'm gonna have to make a wiki guide for this.
[09:30]	:	Yep, I can reorder them
[09:30]	:	Ok. Adding that to my 'fix' list.
[09:30]	:	PUT THAT BACK, ZWAGOTH.
[09:30]	:	hahaha
[09:31]	:	oh, and I see someone already took something off the backlog.
[09:31]	:	I'll add that to the fix list as well.
[09:31]	:	Ideally you should be able to move issues from SVC to SCR, but only linden's should be able to add or remove them from the backlog and order the backlog.
[09:31]	:	What did I do D:
[09:32]	:	from scr back to svc as well or no?
[09:32]	:	yeah, that too.
[09:32]	:	ah
[09:33]	 	wants the shiny Administration dropdown too :>
[09:33]	:	I don't have the "Administration" menu though :(
[09:33]	:	hahaha
[09:34]	:	maybe with llModPowFast you could hack the Admin? ;-)
[09:34]	:	break the encryption
[09:34]	:	Hopefully
[09:34]	 	changes it to a 20sec delay. Hey! It works for email! ;)
[09:34]	:	nooooo
[09:34]	:	haha
[09:34]	:	Nooooooo!
[09:34]	:	lol NOOO it does not work for email
[09:35]	:	Mmm, llEmail
[09:35]	:	make it use xmlrpc
[09:35]	:	Ok, so can someone try moving a scripting SVC jira over to SCR?
[09:35]	:	It is listed as "Scripting" in the drop down.
[09:35]	:	That's an oxymoron, nobody can just simply use xmlrpc
[09:36]	:	is measurng tools on the list
[09:36]	:	im not sure how you move something between catagories
[09:36]	:	Don't you have to have a contributor agreement to move things?
[09:36]	:	Oh, also, I'm really only interested in moving open issues. We should leave resolved or closed issues in SVC.
[09:37]	:	Zwagoth: ok, yeah, I think you have to be on the 'trusted' list, though I'm not sure what that entails.
[09:37]	:	surely someone here is on it?
[09:37]	:	something that got a log of the script perfromance of soemthing on the sim we made over a few minutes and reported it back even if we didnt have estate rights maybe
[09:37]	:	How do we move? I tried with one of my own jira... It didn't work
[09:38]	:	Kaluura: which jira?
[09:38]	:	You have to have a contribution agreement on file from what I remember. Then you are added to the trusted list.
[09:38]	:	I should be, soon if not yet
[09:38]	:	svc-5496
[09:38]	:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-5496 
[#SVC-5496] Comparisons string != string return invalid values with LSL/LSO, different from LSL/Mono
[09:38]	:	but I don't know how to move issues ;-)
[09:38]	:	Ok, under the title for that jira there is the row of buttons starting with 'edit' then 'assign', one of those is 'more actions'
[09:38]	:	where is this moving done ?
[09:39]	:	yup see it
[09:39]	:	And in there, there is a 'Move'
[09:39]	:	No "move"
[09:39]	:	no move in my dropdown either
[09:39]	:	Link, Clone, Label...
[09:39]	:	nope not for me yet
[09:40]	:	if i open the jira itself i have a move option
[09:40]	:	wow thats a huge bug Kal
[09:40]	:	i have no ca though
[09:40]	:	heh
[09:40]	:	drac: what do you mean 'open the jira itself' ?
[09:41]	:	if i click the jira it opens in like an iframe thing, then under actions i have a move option
[09:41]	:	Oh we aren't fixing that one anyway.
[09:41]	:	click it in the backlog list
[09:41]	:	ah
[09:41]	:	so maybe you can move them out of SCR then?
[09:41]	:	i think so, do you want me to?
[09:42]	:	sure, just tell me which one
[09:43]	:	i need a way to find out how laggy a script is for scripters without estate rights
[09:43]	:	scr7
[09:43]	:	teleport agent thing
[09:43]	:	i just moved it to svc
[09:43]	:	all right, that is good.
[09:43]	:	drac: I assume you can't move it back?
[09:43]	:	do i need some special status to move or am i just doing it wrong?
[09:43]	:	lets see
[09:44]	:	you may need special status.
[09:44]	:	no cant move it back
[09:44]	:	gimme special status
[09:44]	:	heh
[09:44]	:	you should move it back, teleportagent would be nice
[09:44]	:	also
[09:44]	:	I will work on getting the svc -> scr working then see what is involved in 'special status'
[09:44]	:	watch everyone hate me that is watching that jira now
[09:44]	:	haha
[09:44]	:	Heh
[09:44]	:	Special status is contribution agreement I believe.
[09:45]	:	Can we sign it even without contributing?
[09:45]	:	it may be. I'll talk with a jira guru about what is possible. I'd like to have more people able to move to SCR if possible.
[09:46]	:	Kalurra: I don't see why not. :p Though it does have legal ramifications for any code you add to jira.
[09:46]	:	kelly could you move it back, i kinda would actually want llteleportagent
[09:46]	:	where i sign?
[09:47]	:	also i dont want people to think im abusing jira
[09:47]	:	drac I already did
[09:47]	:	lots of people who arent kinky use rlv for teleport purposes
[09:47]	:	oh ok
[09:47]	:	it is now SCR-16
[09:47]	:	cool
[09:47]	:	and back on the backlog.
[09:48]	:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Contribution_Agreement
[09:48]	:	So, what do you guys think? Any ways I can make this jira project more useful?
[09:48]	:	is a way to find out how laggy a script is for scripters without estate rights on it ?
[09:48]	:	Attica: Nope.
[09:48]	:	is it assignable during creation, or does it have to be moved from svc every time
[09:49]	:	Attica: Feel free to add one if there isn't one already filed in SVC
[09:49]	:	draconis: I believe you can make a new one in there.
[09:49]	:	lets test this
[09:49]	:	oooh I'm sure there's a jira for that ;-) one of the most asked for feature by scripters ;-)
[09:50]	:	its not src isnt in the dropdown to assign
[09:50]	:	during creation
[09:50]	:	but we were already promised such by llvery clearly during the inttiial discussion of script limits
[09:50]	:	scr rather
[09:50]	:	it doesnt needa jira,its been promised long ago
[09:50]	:	Not even 'Scripting'? (I think in the list it is just Scripting not scr)
[09:50]	:	nope
[09:51]	:	no scripting or scr
[09:51]	:	ok. will get that fixed.
[09:51]	:	stomps foot,itsntojira its promised with ahuge lead int ime before any script limits
[09:52]	:	All right. we will pause talking about jira to talk about script time and script limits.
[09:52]	:	i nee d to jira a preixisting promise:)? is this parliament
[09:52]	:	First: If any such promises were made, I probably made them, and I don't recall making that and also I'm pretty careful about making any promises at all.
[09:52]	:	ty
[09:52]	:	640KB should be enough for everyone ;)
[09:52]	:	babbage
[09:52]	:	babbage
[09:52]	:	=^_^=
[09:52]	:	Poor Babbage...
[09:53]	:	huge lea dintime,itwas cast iron
[09:53]	:	Just say "script limits are coming Real Soon Now" to start the clock on that huge lead time.
[09:53]	:	Ah, yes. We have tools to report script memory usage for land owners as well as estate owners and for viewing your attachments
[09:53]	:	the lea dintime was the with reporting tools
[09:53]	:	The reporting tools are for memory, which is what we will be limiting, not CPU time.
[09:53]	:	so after a way to find out how laggy a script is for scripters without estate rights, people get ayear to get used to knowing how laggy theyare
[09:53]	:	thenscript limits
[09:53]	:	we were also promised good set of new and improved LSL functions to be able to improve our scripts before the scripts limits
[09:53]	:	CPU time interests us more than memory...
[09:54]	:	I am sure that should we ever start working on CPU throttling or limits we will add the tools to view that then.
[09:54]	:	so cnatstart clockuntil a way to find out how laggy a script is for scripters without estate rights is wellestablished
[09:54]	:	im shocke dit isnt on thelist
[09:54]	:	Liisa: And were given quite a few.
[09:54]	:	I cannot understand you half the time Attica :(
[09:54]	:	mostscripters ar elike me, we rnt clever, we arent speial,we use lsl because it lest do stuff withotu been geniuses
[09:54]	:	its accessable
[09:55]	:	Why can that information not be exposed anyways? It would be useful to any scripter, estate owner or not if their script time is high. I feel it should be accessible to anyone. As well as memory usage. Should they wish to look.
[09:55]	:	At least for their own scripts.
[09:55]	:	at least on the stuff we made
[09:55]	:	Limits or not the information can be useful to builders.
[09:56]	:	today a famous scripter had to come asandbox and ask the sim owner to lok at script time
[09:56]	:	Aren't all scripts not really recorded until an estate manager requests the time, then it's sent a few sim frames later?
[09:56]	:	thatsntohowits hould be
[09:56]	:	And wearers alike.
[09:56]	:	its wrong
[09:56]	:	I'd love the opportunity to revamp the top scripts floater, both to fix the data it gives (which is wrong more often than right) and make it work for more views - let people see their own scripts, let land owners see the script on their land even if they aren't an estate manager
[09:56]	:	+1 Kelly!
[09:56]	:	But it is not currently planned.
[09:56]	:	heh: to properly interpret the Estate tool script stats requires more smarts than to know how to script in the first place.
[09:57]	:	Throw it in the sim console thing, let people chose how much information that they'd get back
[09:57]	:	Qie: Even then the data is often just wrong.
[09:57]	:	ah, well, see, I"m not that smart. :p
[09:57]	:	sim console only works for estate owners though
[09:57]	:	i thought
[09:57]	:	Nope
[09:57]	:	3 minute warning.
[09:57]	:	Works for everyone, you just don't have much rights unless you are manager/better
[09:57]	:	that would be useful then
[09:58]	:	i havebad muscles,it shard to catche state tools at right moment, likeplaying space invaders with my mouse
[09:58]	:	Backspace does wonders
[09:58]	:	Kelly, nothing to do with scripting, but maybe for your idle moments (hah!) : SVC-6871
[09:58]	:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-6871 
[#SVC-6871] Simple (?) way to offer abandoned parcels to neighboring landowners first before setting for sale to anybody
[09:58]	:	id like tobe abel togeta snapshot of hghestand lowest and suchuseage over a assigned time frame n an object i create dwith a script i mad ein it please
[09:59]	:	Sockets for LSL would be nice ;~)
[10:00]	:	kelly thatwould be great
[10:00]	:	hahaha, sockets.
[10:00]	:	So many things would become possible then!
[10:00]	:	And so many more things could be done so much better
[10:00]	:	Qie: That probably won't be in the first implementation.
[10:00]	:	Kelly. Any idea why deep nesting of local variables causes invalid IL code to be generated?
[10:00]	:	quie you use dotbe able tog o to live chat and ask them and theyd sellit to you?
[10:00]	:	Zwagoth: without further specifics, no.
[10:00]	:	I can give you the script.
[10:01]	:	kelly, that's fine... but maybe before Guy turns loose abandoned backlog would be good.
[10:01]	:	It produces a very interesting mono error.
[10:01]	:	Zwagoth: I'd prefer a jira, but I think one already exists.
[10:01]	:	Okay :>
[10:01]	:	The feature, when it is enabled, will not effect previously abandoned land.
[10:01]	:	It's not really an issue. Just wondered if you knew.
[10:01]	:	Zwagoth: only LSL or mono too?
[10:02]	:	mono only that I'm aware of.
[10:02]	:	ah, interesting.
[10:02]	:	I can check again.
[10:02]	:	k
[10:02]	:	Well, we are 2 minutes past.
[10:02]	:	(sorry for the derail in the last minute: understood, but... if I were Guy, I'd figure out a way to force that huge inventory into the process, rather than running it through auctions)
[10:02]	:	I don't normally use 64+ nesting levels. I just found it one day.
[10:02]	:	thanks Kelly.
[10:02]	:	thanks Kelly :>
[10:03]	:	thanks kelly, awesome theres a jira for scripts now
[10:03]	:	and not jusr svc
[10:03]	:	just*
[10:03]	:	If you have any more feedback on the jira project or ideas on ways to make it more useful, please let me know via email or comment on SCR-1
[10:03]	:	I'll see what I can do about the issues we found today.
[10:03]	:	Bye!
 
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