Mesh/Archive/2011-04-25

== Agenda ==
*Are things like the piles of ducks from Dan's duck fountains (Mesh Sandbox 21: 114,8) completely deterministic, or does some stochastic effect get added in, either with explicit randomisation or implicitly by some feature of the physics engine? [Drongle McMahon]
*Can you give us an update on recent progress and what your priorities are? [Vivienne Daguerre]
*Is there anything in particular you need us to test? [Vivienne Daguerre]
*What will people using non-mesh viewers see if someone is wearing a rigged mesh?[Ashasekayi Ra]
*Is there a way to view the total streaming cost or rendering cost of a mesh object plus its textures?[Ashasekayi Ra]
*Just a note: Here's the jira URL for bone scaling/rotation support that was requested in the last meeting.[Ashasekayi Ra] https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/CTS-550
*Please import fix for STORM-809 into Linux Mesh branch (huge impact on viewer performances - current mesh builds are almost unusable on my system) --oobscure 11:09, 25 April 2011 (PDT)
== Meeting Notes ==
==Attendees List==
*Andrew Linden (andrew.linden)
*Asha (ashasekayi.ra)
*Bronson Blackadder (bronson.blackadder)
*Brookston Holiday (brookston.holiday)
*Charlar Linden (charlar.linden)
*Drongle McMahon (drongle.mcmahon)
*Ima Mechanique (ima.mechanique)
*KiwiAshiri (kiwiashiri)
*Lazy (lazy.spectre)
*Nyx Linden (nyx.linden)
*Object (object)
*oobscure (opensource.obscure)
*Reed (reed.steamroller)
*davep (runitai.linden)
*Rusalka Writer (rusalka.writer)
*And all i got was this lousy DN (tankmaster.finesmith)
*Vivienne Daguerre (vivienne.daguerre)
*Z (zslash.cyberstar)
==Transcript for Monday April 25, 2011==
[11:02]	Charlar Linden 	Ready to start?
[11:03]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Surely
[11:03]	Charlar Linden 	First item - Are things like the piles of ducks from Dan's duck fountains (Mesh Sandbox 21: 114,8) completely deterministic, or does some stochastic effect get added in, either with explicit randomisation or implicitly by some feature of the physics engine? [Drongle McMahon]
[11:03]	Vivienne Daguerre 	/me smiles...
[11:03]	Vivienne Daguerre 	Asha, I can see your mesh! and it is lovely
[11:03]	Charlar Linden 	Agenda: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mesh_User_Group
[11:03]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	hehe.. Thank you. Too bad I can't see it...
[11:05]	davep (runitai.linden) 	so havok is deterministic *if* every simulation frame has exactly the same time increment
[11:05]	davep (runitai.linden) 	but that's never true on a second life sim host
[11:06]	davep (runitai.linden) 	there will always be some small margin of error due to variance in FPS from CPU load
[11:06]	Charlar Linden 	We have a sim engineer joining us in a minute, btw.
[11:06]	Bronson Blackadder 	if anyone is having problems seeing other avatars go to graghics and turn up the maximum number of non imposter avatars
[11:06]	Vivienne Daguerre 	/me smiles...
[11:06]	Vivienne Daguerre 	cool
[11:06]	Bronson Blackadder 	or turn off avatar imposters
[11:06]	And (tankmaster.finesmith) 	^
[11:06]	davep (runitai.linden) 	or use this viewer:
[11:07]	Drongle McMahon 	Ah. That explains why sometimed piles collapse identically and sometime not, maybe.
[11:07]	davep (runitai.linden) 	http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/seraph_mesh-candidate-vs2010/rev/227422/arch/CYGWIN/index.html
[11:07]	Nyx Linden 	most likely :)
[11:08]	Brookston Holiday 	hmmmm... chat text isn't lining up right in the new viewer, it's partially covered by the name of the speaker :(
[11:08]	Brookston Holiday 	for me anyways
[11:08]	Charlar Linden 	ok, next item?
[11:09]	Charlar Linden 	Can you give us an update on recent progress and what your priorities are? [Vivienne Daguerre]
[11:10]	Nyx Linden 	we've been hammering on the merge with vs2010 so we can merge down to viewer-development
[11:10]	Nyx Linden 	that's been our primary focus for the past week
[11:10]	Nyx Linden 	which leads us into the next topic....
[11:10]	Charlar Linden 	We'd love it if you could help us look for regressions.
[11:10]	oobscure (opensource.obscure)	cool. I suspect that answers also #8 which I had just added.
[11:11]	oobscure (opensource.obscure)	(meant #7 sorry)
[11:11]	Vivienne Daguerre 	how would I know a regression if I saw one? grins
[11:11]	Charlar Linden 	next: Is there anything in particular you need us to test? [Vivienne Daguerre]
[11:12]	davep (runitai.linden) 	so grab the installer from the links I posted above and login to agni
[11:12]	Drongle McMahon 	"Oh, it's that bug again, hgow nostalgic"
[11:12]	Nyx Linden 	so we *believe* the merge candidate should be good to be used on maingrid as a general viewer
[11:12]	Nyx Linden 	(or at least not more buggy than the main codebase :) )
[11:12]	davep (runitai.linden) 	and if you find a bug in that viewer that doesn't exist in the current second life beta viewer, it's a regression and we need to fix it before we merge to trunk
[11:13]	Vivienne Daguerre 	I have been using the mesh viewer as my viewer on the main grid in the evenings with my friends
[11:13]	Vivienne Daguerre 	/me smiles...
[11:13]	Vivienne Daguerre 	ah, thank you for the clarification dave
[11:13]	davep (runitai.linden) 	bugs on the mesh grid are taking a back seat for now while we focus on making sure the mesh viewer can be used on agni
[11:13]	Vivienne Daguerre 	I have noticed two things...
[11:14]	Vivienne Daguerre 	favourite outfits do not always change smoothly but they do most of the time...
[11:14]	Vivienne Daguerre 	more annoying and consistent than that is the LSL editor
[11:14]	davep (runitai.linden) 	different from the current beta viewer?
[11:14]	Nyx Linden 	can you see those same bugs in the latest beta?
[11:14]	Vivienne Daguerre 	the spacing is very odd and you don't know where the cursor truly is, and the further you go down in the script the worse it is
[11:14]	Vivienne Daguerre 	so you cannot really use the mesh viewer for scripting
[11:15]	Z (zslash.cyberstar) 	hm i always used mesh viewer for scripts and never had a similar problem or any problem at all
[11:15]	oobscure (opensource.obscure)	that's a regression. known, old and hated, bug.
[11:15]	Object 	Hello, Avatar!
[11:15]	Vivienne Daguerre 	I am using 2.6.3 226799 April 18
[11:15]	Nyx Linden 	could you file a jira with specific reproduction steps?
[11:15]	Z (zslash.cyberstar) 	im on 2.6.6 227422
[11:15]	oobscure (opensource.obscure)	vivienne i can help you track down that one in JIRA later if you want. let me know
[11:15]	Vivienne Daguerre 	yes
[11:16]	Vivienne Daguerre 	thank you, if it is already there that would be a big help
[11:16]	Nyx Linden 	if we've re-awakened an old bug that's valid too :)
[11:16]	Charlar Linden 	OK, great - ready to move on?
[11:16]	Z (zslash.cyberstar) 	thanks for fixing some physics bugs :P
[11:16]	Object 	Script edito testr!
[11:16]	Charlar Linden 	What will people using non-mesh viewers see if someone is wearing a rigged mesh?[Ashasekayi Ra]
[11:17]	davep (runitai.linden) 	same as any other mesh -- just a broken sculpt
[11:17]	davep (runitai.linden) 	looks kinda like a single flat triangle, if I remember right
[11:17]	And (tankmaster.finesmith) 	a 2d image
[11:17]	Z (zslash.cyberstar) 	yeah
[11:17]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	ok, I gotcha
[11:18]	Z (zslash.cyberstar) 	why dont u guys instead of the flat triangle add a texture to it aswell saying (you need mesh viewer) ^^
[11:18]	And (tankmaster.finesmith) 	cant, the testure is used for the mesh object
[11:18]	Reed (reed.steamroller) 	sots up
[11:19]	Reed (reed.steamroller) 	*wots
[11:19]	Z (zslash.cyberstar) 	or give some kinda popup warning saying "some objects might not rez because you are on an old viewer"
[11:19]	Z (zslash.cyberstar) 	so ppl know why its just a flat triangle
[11:19]	davep (runitai.linden) 	Z: because that would require updating a code base we don't use any more
[11:19]	Nyx Linden 	and requiring people to reinstall the update just to get that error message
[11:20]	Rusalka Writer 	My favorit error.
[11:20]	Z (zslash.cyberstar) 	ah ok, no warning popup built ins
[11:20]	Charlar Linden 	next item:
[11:20]	Charlar Linden 	Is there a way to view the total streaming cost or rendering cost of a mesh object plus its textures?[Ashasekayi Ra]
[11:20]	Nyx Linden 	there will be!
[11:20]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Oh great
[11:20]	Reed (reed.steamroller) 	neat!
[11:21]	Z (zslash.cyberstar) 	:D
[11:21]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Will that be added before mesh goes live?
[11:21]	Nyx Linden 	we have some debug displays in place, but we're working on some better stuff
[11:21]	Drongle McMahon 	It;s in Develop/Show Info/ Show Upload Cost, isn't it?
[11:22]	Drongle McMahon 	Not correct though.
[11:22]	davep (runitai.linden) 	you can do develop->show info->show render info
[11:22]	Vivienne Daguerre 	Just for your info, Oobscure found an old jira that describes the cursor problem in script editing, so it is a return of an old bug. Please see https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-21388
[11:22]	davep (runitai.linden) 	and one of the lines shows region streaming cost or selection streaming cost
[11:22]	Nyx Linden 	new render cost isn't in a new viewer yet though
[11:22]	Drongle McMahon 	The straeming cost is wrong there too
[11:23]	Z (zslash.cyberstar) 	any news on mesh upload costs ?
[11:23]	Drongle McMahon 	...like my spelling
[11:23]	davep (runitai.linden) 	heh, all the costs are "wrong" right now
[11:24]	Z (zslash.cyberstar) 	so correct upload costs will show in upcomding builds ?
[11:25]	davep (runitai.linden) 	it's going to take us awhile to zero in on "correct" upload costs
[11:25]	davep (runitai.linden) 	and streaming cost and render cost
[11:25]	davep (runitai.linden) 	it's going to take lots of analysis of various types of builds
[11:25]	Nyx Linden 	we're working on getting costs to a stable point where we can tweak the values based on content you guys create
[11:26]	davep (runitai.linden) 	and for once we're setting up the accounting system the "right" way instead of the quick way
[11:26]	Nyx Linden 	right now we're working on stability, but we do want to get back to improving this soon.
[11:26]	Drongle McMahon 	The trouble is that what we create depends on what the costs appear to be, so there is a circular effect there.
[11:26]	davep (runitai.linden) 	so it's going to be a little while before we can get back to tweaking the cost values
[11:26]	Nyx Linden 	it will take a few iterations to get right I'm sure :)
[11:27]	Rusalka Writer 	Agree with Drongle there, certainly.
[11:27]	Drongle McMahon 	Did you see CTS-536, Davep?
[11:27]	davep (runitai.linden) 	looking...
[11:27]	davep (runitai.linden) 	drongle: yup, I'm aware of that
[11:27]	davep (runitai.linden) 	thanks for the heads up
[11:27]	Drongle McMahon 	ok
[11:28]	Charlar Linden 	ok, let's move on...
[11:28]	davep (runitai.linden) 	/me is famous for "1 million is not 1 thousand" bugs.
[11:28]	Charlar Linden 	Just a note: Here's the jira URL for bone scaling/rotation support that was requested in the last meeting.[Ashasekayi Ra] https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/CTS-550
[11:28]	Drongle McMahon 	I think it mightb be related to the normal distortion ... something going wrong with the transformations.
[11:28]	Nyx Linden 	answer: thanks for the note!
[11:29]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	yw :)
[11:29]	Nyx Linden 	we'll pass it to prep
[11:29]	Charlar Linden 	ok, next: Please import fix for STORM-809 into Linux Mesh branch (huge impact on viewer performances - current mesh builds are almost unusable on my system) --oobscure 11:09, 25 April 2011 (PDT)
[11:29]	Nyx Linden 	it should have been picked up with the VS2010 merge from viewer-development
[11:30]	Nyx Linden 	so it should be imported on the build davep linked earlier
[11:30]	oobscure (opensource.obscure)	mmmw ok. 2.6.6.227422 crashes here tho
[11:30]	oobscure (opensource.obscure)	at startup. I'll file a jira (bin/do-not-directly-run-secondlife-bin: error while loading shared libraries: libtcmalloc.so.0: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory)
[11:30]	davep (runitai.linden) 	oobscure: neat, keep banging on that "submit report" button
[11:30]	Nyx Linden 	oobscure - we know that one and are working on it today :)
[11:30]	davep (runitai.linden) 	oh, that one
[11:30]	oobscure (opensource.obscure)	aw cool
[11:31]	Nyx Linden 	packaging issue - pretty simple
[11:31]	oobscure (opensource.obscure)	ok so i'm not reporting that one - correct?
[11:31]	Nyx Linden 	correct, you don't need to report that one
[11:31]	oobscure (opensource.obscure)	thanks, i'm good.
[11:31]	Nyx Linden 	our QA dev beat you to it :)
[11:31]	davep (runitai.linden) 	/me goes to fix the linux build RIGHT NOW.
[11:31]	oobscure (opensource.obscure)	:))
[11:32]	Charlar Linden 	that was our last Agenda Item.
[11:32]	KiwiAshiri 	=^_^=
[11:32]	Nyx Linden 	anything else on your minds?
[11:32]	Drongle McMahon 	Can we have Mesh Sandbox 15 back please?
[11:32]	Z (zslash.cyberstar) 	new avatar model ?
[11:32]	Charlar Linden 	I think we're done here, unless there's something else?
[11:33]	Charlar Linden 	Sandbox 15 is down?
[11:33]	Lazy (lazy.spectre) 	34 is too
[11:33]	Drongle McMahon 	For a few days.
[11:33]	Drongle McMahon 	Several mesh regions are
[11:33]	Z (zslash.cyberstar) 	34 too
[11:33]	Andrew Linden 	I'll look into why Mesh Sandbox 15 is down.
[11:33]	Z (zslash.cyberstar) 	34 only water we got
[11:33]	Drongle McMahon 	It used to be on an older version than the others.
[11:34]	Drongle McMahon 	Maybe all that content broke it if it was upgraded
[11:34]	oobscure (opensource.obscure)	is https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23799 on your radar ?
[11:35]	oobscure (opensource.obscure)	"In deferred rendering, solids get exponential light falloff decay, but alpha content gets linear light falloff decay."
[11:35]	Charlar Linden 	We're in very active dev on the sim side to try and get merged to trunk. Unfortunately that results in some additional instability on aditi.
[11:35]	Drongle McMahon 	Can I write a jira on random mesh disappearances, although it's completely unreproducible?
[11:35]	oobscure (opensource.obscure)	not directly related to meshes but relevant for shadows/rendering
[11:36]	Nyx Linden 	not yet, but thatnks for pointing it out oobscure :)
[11:36]	oobscure (opensource.obscure)	ok
[11:36]	Nyx Linden 	ah dave believes its a known issue
[11:36]	Andrew Linden 	/me is going to restart the SL servers on the "Mesh Legacy" channel (Mesh Sandbox 15 and friends).
[11:37]	Vivienne Daguerre 	Question... Oobscure helped me find two old jiras that describe the script cursor position problem exactly. Should I just add a comment to them to indicate that the problem is back? Or do I need to file a new jira?
[11:37]	Charlar Linden 	anything else? Otherwise we're going to go back to coding and fixing.
[11:37]	Drongle McMahon 	Thanks Andrew
[11:37]	Nyx Linden 	Vivienne - reopen and change the affects versions, then send us a link
[11:37]	Nyx Linden 	also make sure the repro is valid!
[11:37]	Vivienne Daguerre 	well, I have not played with jiras before, so I am a jira noob
[11:38]	Vivienne Daguerre 	I will play with adjusting my UI size. I have reduced it below 1 since I have a large monitor. Perhaps that is why others are not seeing the problem and I am
[11:38]	Nyx Linden 	ok, at least add a comment with what you know of it coming back and send us a link :)
[11:39]	Nyx Linden 	we can twiddle the appropriate bits as necessary, but the repro information (and version it reproduces on) is critical :)
[11:39]	Vivienne Daguerre 	gotcha
[11:39]	Vivienne Daguerre 	I will work on that tomorrow
[11:39]	Nyx Linden 	thanks!
[11:39]	Vivienne Daguerre 	and get the latest viewer to make sure the problem still exists in it
[11:39]	Nyx Linden 	yep
[11:40]	davep (runitai.linden) 	oh, VWR-23799 should be fixable
[11:40]	Andrew Linden 	Mesh Sandbox 15 is starting now....
[11:40]	davep (runitai.linden) 	I'll grab that today
[11:41]	Charlar Linden 	OK, I'm calling this meeting -- thanks folks!
[11:41]	davep (runitai.linden) 	w00
[11:41]	Vivienne Daguerre 	see you soon
[11:41]	Nyx Linden 	see everyone next week!
[11:41]	And (tankmaster.finesmith) 	have a great week!
[11:41]	Rusalka Writer 	Aloha!
[11:41]	Charlar Linden 	yes, and please look for those regressions!
[11:42]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Have a good one all
[11:42]	Ima Mechanique 	bye all
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