Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.04.09

Simulator_User_Group
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== List of Speakers ==
Andrew Linden 	Duckie Dickins 	Inara Pey
JayR Cela 	Kennylex Luckless	Kitto Flora
Lares Carter 	Lexbot Sinister 	Lucia Nightfire
MartinRJ 	Minuet Voir 	Nalates Urriah
NeoBokrug Elytis 	Qie Niangao 	Rex Cronon
Rohacan Hirons 	Simon Linden 	Sylvie Etoile
TankMaster Finesmith	Tiberious Neruda 	Yuzuru Jewell
== Transcript ==
[11:58] Kennylex Luckless: Hia Andrew
[11:58] Andrew Linden: Hello.
[11:58] Yuzuru Jewell: Hello, Andrew.
[11:59] Inara Pey: Hey, Andrew!
[11:59] Andrew Linden: Hrm.... the content here showed up correctly, the floor in particular.
[11:59] Kitto Flora: Hi Andrew.
[12:00] Andrew Linden: My interestlist code must have been promoted ;-)
[12:00] Andrew Linden: Hello Kitto.
[12:00] Qie Niangao: :D
[12:00] Rohacan Hirons: Hello
[12:00] Meeter: Welcome to the Server User Group
[12:00] MartinRJ: Hello all
[12:00] TankMaster Finesmith: hey andrew
[12:00] JayR Cela: Hello Every one / Andrew Nice to see you back :_)
[12:01] Yuzuru Jewell: Hello, Martin.
[12:01] MartinRJ: hi
[12:01] TankMaster Finesmith: Andrew: topic id like to discus today is the viewer changes for connecting to a region
[12:01] TankMaster Finesmith: at some point
[12:02] Andrew Linden: Ok Tankmaster, you're talking about the two hints that the viewer will supply to the server, that I mentioned in the forums?
[12:02] TankMaster Finesmith: yes
[12:02] Andrew Linden: Sure, I'll put that at the top of the agenda after the news.
[12:02] TankMaster Finesmith: thx
[12:02] Andrew Linden: I expect Simon to attend today, but I don't see him here yet.
[12:03] TankMaster Finesmith: he jsut arrived :P
[12:03] Qie Niangao: Here he is. Hi, Simon.
[12:03] Andrew Linden: Excellent.
[12:03] MartinRJ: Hello Simon
[12:03] Simon Linden: Hello everyone
[12:03] Rohacan Hirons: Hi
[12:03] Yuzuru Jewell: Hello, Simon.
[12:03] Andrew Linden: I would try to wing it, but I'm a bit out of touch with some of the mantenance news.
[12:03] TankMaster Finesmith: is this when we all chim in and say "your late, simon"?
[12:03] TankMaster Finesmith: :D
[12:03] JayR Cela: Hi there Simon * Wave's * :_)
[12:03] Simon Linden: sure, go for it :)
[12:03] TankMaster Finesmith: haha
[12:03] Minuet Voir: lag
[12:04] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
[12:04] Simon Linden: ok, so let's see ... did you guys discuss the release or lack of this week?
[12:04] Kennylex Luckless: hi yiu
[12:04] Andrew Linden: Nothing yet, Simon.
[12:04] Simon Linden: ok, well, we didn't promote anything this morning
[12:05] Simon Linden: The new Magnum code hasn't been out very long, and there's a bug with the new animation LSL functions which needs to be fixed.
[12:05] Andrew Linden: ... so the RC's get some updates.
[12:05] Simon Linden: While there are some other changes in that maintenance branch, we didn't want the new feature getting too widespread while not behaving well
[12:05] Simon Linden: Right, the RCs will all get updated tomorrow
[12:06] Tiberious Neruda: hmmm... what bugs?
[12:06] Simon Linden: and no now code going into the RC
[12:06] Nalates Urriah: Is that bug the BUG-2164 llow poseballs to stop custom sit animations.
[12:07] Simon Linden: yeah, some poseballs might do specific things to try and stop the default animation, but the over-ridden ones wouldn't stop
[12:07] Tiberious Neruda: I've noticed that trying to replace the groundsit and using it causes the stand up button to not appear
[12:08] Simon Linden: hmm, that's a new one
[12:08] Simon Linden: That's all the maintenance news I have
[12:08] Andrew Linden: I've got a few small items for the agenda...
[12:09] Andrew Linden: The second interestlist RC work was promoted last week and a few bugs have come to my attention
[12:09] Andrew Linden: The first is that some objects that produce sounds do not work... when they are behind you and not visible
[12:10] Andrew Linden: because the server did not send the object to the viewer, so all associated sounds will also not be sent.
[12:10] Rex Cronon: i believe that there are also vehicles that try to stop default animations. if the vehicles can't stop the over-written animations, does that mean the vehicles will be borked?
[12:10] Andrew Linden: I haven't started working on that one, but it is on my radar.
[12:10] Andrew Linden: The second issue is that the "delayed updates" for objects behind you does annoy a few people in certain circumstances.
[12:11] Andrew Linden: I'm not sure how to fix that yet, but I'm thinking about it.
[12:11] Andrew Linden: I don'
[12:11] Andrew Linden: I don't want to just send all updates for things behind you because the win from NOT sending that data too fast is nice to have
[12:12] Rex Cronon: why don't u add to the interest list anything that is in a 10m radius of the avatar/camera?
[12:12] Andrew Linden: but I'm trying to come up with some ideas on how to reduce the problem.
[12:12] Lexbot Sinister: itsn't the 10 meters the rez minimum anyways?
[12:12] Andrew Linden: Sure Rex, that is one idea I've considered. I call it the "keyhole idea", where the shape of the interest zone isn't just the camera frustum, but includes a sphere centered at the camera.
[12:13] MartinRJ: there is still an interestlist or viewerbug that makes large buildings only partially appear, is there an update of that?
[12:13] TankMaster Finesmith sets sphere to 4096m
[12:13] Andrew Linden: The radius of that sphere would be a parameter, and whatever it is set to probably wouldn't work for everyone.
[12:13] TankMaster Finesmith: there, proplem solved :P
[12:13] MartinRJ: everytime I log in, my house is partially invisible
[12:13] Rex Cronon: lol tankmaster
[12:13] Lexbot Sinister: same with my 64 mesh cliff, it's ALWAYS invisible
[12:13] MartinRJ: it's been like that for many months.
[12:13] Andrew Linden: Also, there is a server-side cost to setting that sphere to 4096... more work for the server to do.
[12:14] Duckie Dickins: couldn't it be a slider on the viewer? Then people could tune it to their liking
[12:14] Tiberious Neruda: what causes rotations on child prims to fail?
[12:14] Lexbot Sinister: well, many months maybe, but nothing this consistent. Now it fails 100%
[12:14] Sylvie Etoile: Lots of things are invisible now until you right-click
[12:14] TankMaster Finesmith: servers are a dine a dozzen, right? :D
[12:14] Andrew Linden: I haven't heard about failing rotations of child prims. Are some people seeing such a bug?
[12:14] Tiberious Neruda: that top half is supposed to rotate when it hits
[12:15] TankMaster Finesmith: that sounds like an old viewer bug which LL fixed a while ago
[12:15] Rex Cronon: the server can also maintain a linked list with all the objects that r sound sources and add only those to the 10-20m sphere
[12:15] Andrew Linden: The partially non-visible bug is the other thing I wanted to talk about...
[12:15] Tiberious Neruda: but yet, it isn't
[12:15] TankMaster Finesmith: old as in a few months ago
[12:15] Tiberious Neruda: it only shows if you zoom in on it
[12:15] TankMaster Finesmith: theres some rotation bugs LL fixed that arent in the last release of FS
[12:15] Andrew Linden: I believe there is a viewer bug that is causing most of the occurrences where parts of a linked set are not visible
[12:15] MartinRJ: tiberious, there is a fix for childprim-rotations in the 3.5.0 viewer
[12:16] Andrew Linden: but when you click where they are they suddenly become visible
[12:16] Tiberious Neruda: oh. It's an LL viewer thing
[12:16] Lexbot Sinister: it's with non-linked items too.
[12:16] Tiberious Neruda: okay... it's viewer-side then
[12:16] Andrew Linden: I've mentioned that problem to one of our viewer devs and I'm hoping he can take a look at it.
[12:16] Tiberious Neruda: gotcha
[12:16] Sylvie Etoile: It['s more common than it used to be Andrew
[12:16] Andrew Linden: The fact that it shows up when you click on it means the viewer must know it is there to be able to detect your click.
[12:17] Lexbot Sinister: For me, it doesn't detect the object on click. I can only get it by lassoing it in
[12:17] Andrew Linden: Right Sylvie, what has changed is that the server now considers much more content to be "cacheable" and I believe the bug is related to objects that are in the "object cache".
[12:17] Andrew Linden: It used to be that the server's definition of what was cacheable was "anything that is static and does not have a script".
[12:18] Sylvie Etoile: I get it with my airport
[12:18] Andrew Linden: That definition was expanded in the interestlist code that was promoted last week to be: "anything that hasn't changed appearance or position in the last couple of minutes"
[12:18] Sylvie Etoile: A bit scary when the runway doesn't appear lol
[12:18] Andrew Linden: That's my theory anyway.
[12:19] Rex Cronon: if u have a mine field that might lead to problems
[12:19] Qie Niangao: The version that's been around for months will clear with a manual deletion of the object cache... what's interesting is that the very same recurring prim will be affected eventually.
[12:19] Rex Cronon: the mines r inactive until somebody comes near
[12:19] Kitto Flora: The 'cant see it till you right click it' problem is many months old. And it affects static non-scripted objects.
[12:20] Kitto Flora: Also it will often affect all the copies of identical objects in the FOV
[12:20] Andrew Linden: Supposedly a workaround for the disappearing child prims bug is to "flip alpha masks and atmospheric shader settings".
[12:20] Lexbot Sinister: ...but not always...
[12:21] Andrew Linden: I haven't tried it, but according to reports in the forums that works.
[12:21] TankMaster Finesmith: its working for some, not all
[12:21] Andrew Linden: Anyway, I hope to have an update about that by next week's User Group.
[12:22] Sylvie Etoile: It wastes a lot of time having to right clcik stuff when you first log on in some places
[12:22] Andrew Linden: The last item I've got is that I'm almost done with the next interestlist submission for RC
[12:22] Andrew Linden: which has three notworthy things: some optimizations to reduce CPU cost of sending the interestlist,
[12:23] Andrew Linden: a rework of how we balance bandwidht of the various UDP message categories which should provide a little bit smoother streaming
[12:24] Andrew Linden: and some hints about interestlist features that the server will accept from the viewer
[12:24] Andrew Linden: which is what Tankmaster wanted to talk about
[12:24] TankMaster Finesmith: right
[12:25] Andrew Linden: the two features are some minor behavior changes that the server will perform in how it sends object data, based on some bits that the viewer can set on connect
[12:25] JayR Cela: This sounds good :_)
[12:25] Andrew Linden: Basically, the viewer can tell the server that it doesn't have any cache for the particular region
[12:26] Andrew Linden: which allows the server to not bother sending the "cache probe" messsages as we call them (the ObjectUpdateCache messages)
[12:26] Andrew Linden: the "cache probes" are lists of object local_id's and their versions that are sent to the viewer
[12:27] Andrew Linden: the viewer then checks its cache to see if it has each local_id, and whether the version for that id is the same as supplied in the probe
[12:27] Andrew Linden: if it DOES have that info, then it does not respond to the simulator
[12:27] Andrew Linden: but if it does NOT have it, it sends a "cache miss" and the server will then reply with the object data
[12:28] Andrew Linden: so if the viewer has no cache for that region whatsoever, then the server can not bother sending the cache probes, and just send the data
[12:28] Andrew Linden: The second hint is that the viewer will accept cacheable data for ALL objects in the region, even those that are not visible.
[12:29] Andrew Linden: This will cause the server to send non-visible cacheable data to the viewer, including sky boxes way out of view.
[12:29] Andrew Linden: The idea here is to allow the viewer to cache more data, in case it wanders into distant corners of the region.
[12:30] Andrew Linden: The data is sent on a delay, so the non-visible objects are not streamed as soon as you arrive
[12:30] Andrew Linden: so that if you're just passing through the region (within about 60 seconds) then there is no need to get all the data
[12:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[12:30] Andrew Linden: also, the data is sent in a slightly lazy fashion... basically half speed of normal
[12:31] Andrew Linden: which means it might take... about 10 seconds to download most of the non-visible stuff on a normal 500kbps internet connection
[12:31] Andrew Linden: so Tankmaster, you had some questions about those features?
[12:31] Rex Cronon: can the viewer have a visual indicator that shows how many objects r cached locally in the region/sim that u r in?
[12:31] Andrew Linden: The viewer-side support for those is nearly complete.
[12:31] TankMaster Finesmith: more of the timing on when that code may be avalible
[12:32] TankMaster Finesmith: were getting read for a release soon, and would like to have that in there
[12:32] Andrew Linden: Oz asked me today about that. I forwarded his question to Bao who has been doing the viewer-side work.
[12:32] TankMaster Finesmith: ready*
[12:32] TankMaster Finesmith: ok
[12:32] Andrew Linden: He hasn't replied yet, but I suspect we'll try to get that code into a public repo soon. That is Oz's hope.
[12:32] TankMaster Finesmith: ok
[12:33] Andrew Linden: Ok, that's all I had for the agenda.
[12:33] Andrew Linden: The table is open.
[12:33] Kitto Flora: Border crossings
[12:33] Kitto Flora: Fly across border, never connect to next region -
[12:34] Kitto Flora: - just drit till you get to say +512M, then hang, then get disconnected
[12:34] Kitto Flora: *drift
[12:34] Kitto Flora: Its getting to be common
[12:34] Andrew Linden: Any other bits of info there Kitto? These aren't fast region crossings I take it, not speeding jetplanes?
[12:34] Lexbot Sinister: is that due ping times from europeans?
[12:35] Andrew Linden: Are they vehicle crossings? Or just flying crossings?
[12:35] Lexbot Sinister: any, in my case.
[12:35] Kitto Flora: Just art regular flying speed
[12:35] Andrew Linden: I don't think Kitto is in Europe. Hrm...
[12:35] Kitto Flora: No special attachments
[12:35] Lexbot Sinister: on foot, slowly, even. Even if the entire region on the other side is rezzed.
[12:35] Kitto Flora is in California
[12:36] Lexbot Sinister: One out of three crossings fail.
[12:36] Rex Cronon: i usually get same problem if the sim i am going to has a few thousands prims
[12:36] Kitto Flora: Yes - some days it seems like 1 of 3 crossings fail
[12:36] Kitto Flora: Its got to where I rarely dare to try flying around.
[12:36] Duckie Dickins: I think it was in maestro's meeting that we brought up it sometimes is difficult to cross regions when the regions are different versions and that maybe mainland could be in larger region blocks of the same version server code.
[12:36] Andrew Linden looks for Baker Linden. He has recently looked at the region crossing code...
[12:36] Lexbot Sinister: I think it's crossing between server version that causes the problems
[12:37] Kitto Flora: If I seriusly have to do work over there - either walk across of click-tp across
[12:37] Simon Linden: Both Baker and Kelly are out today
[12:37] Andrew Linden: Ok Kitto, so pretty easy to reproduce for you. Anyone else here see the same?
[12:37] Sylvie Etoile: Yes sim different versions always makes crossings harder
[12:37] Lexbot Sinister: i've been "reproducing" it for two weeks at least ;)
[12:38] Kitto Flora: It seems that any time I go exploring by flying around mainland, within a few crossings I get disconnected at border
[12:38] Duckie Dickins: Happens to me occasionally with different versions as well...and I'm in california too.
[12:38] Sylvie Etoile: Poppyport was much better once I got the local sims all put on the main server
[12:38] Kitto Flora: Dunno that I can tell if the next region is diff. version.
[12:38] Inara Pey: I've noted it over Blake Sea when crossing between different versions.
[12:39] Andrew Linden: Kitto, are the borders random? Or are particular borders between regions preferrential to the failure?
[12:39] Kitto Flora: Dont get any daya from next region - thats the problem :)
[12:39] Sylvie Etoile: You can Kitto
[12:39] Duckie Dickins: Firestorm usually announces the region you enter isn't the same as the one you left
[12:39] JayR Cela: I not seen it any worse than it has ever been 4 border crossing's / if anything it is much better than it was last year :_)
[12:39] Kitto Flora: That I cant tell, Andrew
[12:39] Andrew Linden: Ok, just hunting for clues.
[12:39] Kitto Flora: I dont ever fly the common routes I have to travel -
[12:40] Inara Pey: I've been flying out of Santa Catalina and have encountered issues in flying east towards Half Hitch.
[12:40] Andrew Linden: Kitto, when did it start? Was there an approximate recent date?
[12:40] Kitto Flora: But - if someone is going to look at the problem I would take the time to go back and re-check a failure point
[12:40] Andrew Linden: Er... when did it get worse?
[12:40] Kitto Flora: Too far back to say for sure
[12:40] Andrew Linden: ok
[12:41] Kitto Flora: Maybe January?
[12:41] Lexbot Sinister: For me,there is a border to an adjecent sim i know is of a different server version, and it has the 1 out of 3 fail rate. But, you can only notice what version you cross into IF you manage to cross. So then you got to log back and and check it, on purpose.
[12:41] Kitto Flora: Failed border crossings have always been around. But it seems that in the last few months its been getting more common
[12:41] Andrew Linden: Lexbot, care to name the regions at that border?
[12:42] Lexbot Sinister: red windsor vs stepaside
[12:43] Andrew Linden: Ok thanks.
[12:44] Lexbot Sinister: happens when there are no people around, and my bandwidth is stellar otherwise (mid day euro time)
[12:44] Andrew Linden: Simon, any input on region crossings? I know we did an overhaul earlier this year for the "threaded region crossing" code.
[12:44] Kitto Flora: On the griefing side - seems griefers have found a way for prims (megaprims?) to beat the auto- return time, without using scripts
[12:44] NeoBokrug Elytis: I don't think the diagonal region being visible issue is fully resolved.
[12:44] Andrew Linden: And then Baker did some work on threaded rezzings of attachments on region crossing, or something like that, but that was more recent... late Feb or maybe March.
[12:45] Kitto Flora: Oh - diagon ragions have generally disappeard
[12:45] Andrew Linden: I guess the thing to do would be to consider region crossings for more work for the maintenance team.
[12:45] Andrew Linden: Really Kitto? Huh. I should test that.
[12:46] Duckie Dickins: could it be when regions are in different data centers or have they been consolidated?
[12:46] Lucia Nightfire: the autoreturn bug will be fixed when teh code on Bluesteel and Tigre gets put on Magnum and then Main Channel
[12:46] Kitto Flora: Stand in Ahern WA and you often can only see 3/4 of it. The far 1/4 is a hole.
[12:46] Andrew Linden: Duckie, that might be a factor, but the code should work in that case
[12:46] Andrew Linden: the longer ping time might make a race condition more likely
[12:47] Simon Linden: Region crossings are definitely longer and more likely to fail going between data centers
[12:47] Andrew Linden: Ok I'll try that Kitto.
[12:47] Qie Niangao: Unrelated: a heads-up for folks playing with Materials: a *huge* change to land-impact accounting for plain old prims using Prim physics type. This tan circle here is a single phantom prim with a Physics weight of 560. (I have one over 1800, but there aren't that many prims available on this parcel) So try first in a sandbox if you're playing with, say, alpha-masking.
[12:47] Lucia Nightfire: region crossing while sitting on or wearing mesh = roll teh dice
[12:48] Duckie Dickins: ouch
[12:48] Lexbot Sinister: whoah, what causes that?
[12:48] Qie Niangao: apparently it's intended behavior...
[12:48] Tiberious Neruda: oh good lord
[12:48] Qie Niangao: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MATBUG-13
[12:48] JIRA-helper: [#MATBUG-13] Alpha masking can dramatically inflate Physics Land Impact - Second Life Bug Tracker
[12:48] Tiberious Neruda: 560 physics weight? Ridiculous
[12:49] Rex Cronon: with 30 prims u get around 15k physics weight?
[12:49] Qie Niangao: (That jira report is slightly overkill. no llTargetOmega needed)
[12:49] Kitto Flora: Is that disk thin with a tapered edge?
[12:50] Qie Niangao: it's a sphere, very thin, hollow, maybe a dimple or something.
[12:50] Andrew Linden: Ah, so concave.
[12:50] Inara Pey: Geenz mentioned there was more work to be done on Alpha masking yesterday, but ....
[12:50] Rex Cronon: this is a good way to have your parcel run out of prims and very fast
[12:50] Andrew Linden: I think what happened is that materials were tied to the new resource accounting system
[12:50] Kitto Flora: Ah yes - the weight sky-rockets on small hollow stuff. Seems it dont like fine details
[12:51] Qie Niangao: right, it's a good way to end up with hunks of build in your Lost&Found. Surprise! :D
[12:51] Lexbot Sinister: This is a way for every prefab creator to set their stuff to no mod- because customers will screw it up
[12:51] Duckie Dickins: ideal griefer prim...you only need to rez a few of those
[12:51] Lexbot Sinister: that too
[12:51] Andrew Linden: and certain regular prims (not mesh) can be rather complicated for the physics system, so they pick up heavy resource costs.
[12:51] NeoBokrug Elytis: Materials being tied to it is a bug, or intended?
[12:51] [Second Life: Antimius Bayn (Antimius Bayn) is now known as Antimius Bayn.]
[12:52] Lexbot Sinister: wait, materials are connected to LI?
[12:52] Andrew Linden: I believe it was intended.
[12:52] Rex Cronon: imagine making bullets out of these things...
[12:52] Qie Niangao: What's annoying is that there's no way to get a physics type of None for single prims, so even if phantom, it gets this accounting.
[12:53] NeoBokrug Elytis: ^^
[12:53] Andrew Linden: Hrm... we need a physics type "convex hull" or "box".
[12:53] Lexbot Sinister: So objects using meterials will have significantly higher LI?
[12:53] Rex Cronon: imo the formula used to calculate land impact is way to complex:(
[12:53] Lexbot Sinister: agreed.
[12:53] Kitto Flora: What I dont uderstand is why a phantom object has such high physics load. If its phantom why does iphysics care about its shape?
[12:53] Andrew Linden: Concave objects using materials will have a high LI.
[12:54] Lexbot Sinister: Thats ridiculous.
[12:54] Andrew Linden: Kitto, because phantom doesn't actually mean "collisionless", at least not according to the physics engine.
[12:54] Lexbot Sinister: To the ordinary prim building resident it makes zero sense.
[12:54] Lucia Nightfire: phantom != none, drop it on land and you'll see, heh
[12:54] Andrew Linden: It actually means "collides with ground only".
[12:54] Qie Niangao: Ridiculous or not, it's mighty *dangerous* for folks editing existing builds.
[12:55] Rex Cronon: if is non-physical how can it collide with ground?
[12:55] Lexbot Sinister: right.
[12:55] Kitto Flora: But objects set convex hull and moved with KFM are phantom, they even go thru the ground
[12:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[12:55] Kitto Flora: Yet the system cares about physics weight
[12:55] Andrew Linden: Rex, technically no, but we don't yet have special handling for static phantom objects.
[12:55] Lexbot Sinister: I'm starting to feel that the move from prim count to LI is starting to show it's very ugly face.
[12:56] Duckie Dickins: static phantom object handling sounds like a good thing. :)
[12:56] Rex Cronon: andrew it seems there is need to have that
[12:56] Lexbot Sinister: Instead of using natural numbers while counting a quantity, we are supposed to count through a formula with several unknowns. it's not very helpful, and the system is degrading really fast now.
[12:57] Lares Carter: Is there any legitimate use for a single prim with a 560 Physics Weight? It probably should force convex physics shape when the weight gets too high to limit abuse by griefers?
[12:57] Lucia Nightfire: there will probably have to be some refiguring with materials impact on land impact
[12:58] Andrew Linden takes a note: investigate the possibility of low LI for static phantom content.
[12:58] Duckie Dickins: on the other hand we do seem to be able to squeeze a lot more into a 1 LI object than we could have before..so it's not all bad.
[12:58] Duckie Dickins: just special circumstances like this disc of doom on the ground.
[12:58] Rex Cronon: if u use meshes duckie
[12:59] Rohacan Hirons: Many interesting subjects (i do not understand all, but I try, promiss xD) but it's 58... I have an easy question (hope I can) Andrew, did you had time to think about avatar rotation by script ? :)
[12:59] Duckie Dickins: it's 2013....mesh is a good thing. ;)
[12:59] Lexbot Sinister: besides, the LI on materials will have exactly ZERO impact on lag, since worm meshes evade all calculations, and the avatars wearing those will cause lag for everyone else. or, already cause lag.
[12:59] Sylvie Etoile: If griefers can fire huge LI physical prims out of a gun, they will love that
[12:59] Lexbot Sinister: worn*
[12:59] Andrew Linden: Rohacan, no I didn't have time to try to hack a demo of that.
[13:00] Lucia Nightfire: not many griefers focus on consuming available prims with the fewest prims possible, but it still is a grief vector among almost anything these days
[13:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[13:00] Andrew Linden: I've think I've got to actually try it in order to see if it can be done -- that is, not just read the code and theorize.
[13:00] Kennylex Luckless: Btw, Second Life is soon 10y, shall we try to make a mesh ava to Andrew?
[13:00] JayR Cela: Thank you Andrew :_)
[13:01] Rohacan Hirons: Thanks for thinking about it, it's already a good start
[13:01] Tiberious Neruda: yeah... I can just see how an 'LI bomb' could be set off
[13:01] Andrew Linden: Kitto, do you know how the griefers get around autoreturn with megaprims?
[13:01] JayR Cela: You 2 Simon / thanks :_)
[13:02] Andrew Linden: I know there is a mode by which some objects at the border can escape autoreturn, but there is a fix for that somewhere...
[13:02] Kitto Flora: Mesh must be the new religion. It makes the faithful holey.
[13:02] Andrew Linden: the fix is done, but I'm not sure whether it is in RC or still pending.
[13:02] Tiberious Neruda: plant it as a normal prim, let it sit for a while so it's older than other builds, then set it off and watch builds get returned for being voer the limit
[13:02] Kitto Flora: Ah - yes - griefer megaprims are placed right on a region border
[13:02] Sylvie Etoile: Autoreturn is the one protection we have against griefers
[13:03] Lucia Nightfire: shouldn't work like that tiber
[13:03] Tiberious Neruda: I'd hope not
[13:03] Kitto Flora: Its bad to look at, but dont crash the sim
[13:03] Simon Linden: That one is in Bluesteel and LeTigre RCs, Andrew
[13:03] Lucia Nightfire: I have a 9 million LI bomb I use for testing that theory and it won't force autoreturn other things newer
[13:03] Kitto Flora: Griefers using GreyGoo to crash sims, regularly
[13:03] Tiberious Neruda: 9 MILLION?!
[13:03] Lucia Nightfire: yes, 9 million\
[13:03] Sylvie Etoile: omg
[13:03] Rohacan Hirons: o_O
[13:03] Tiberious Neruda: how the hell can you get something -that- massive?
[13:04] Lucia Nightfire: play with stuffs
[13:04] Rex Cronon: with that u can clean up quite a few sim:)
[13:04] Lucia Nightfire: it doesn't worjk like that
[13:04] Andrew Linden: Kitto, really? So there is a hole in the Grey Goo Fence.
[13:04] Lucia Nightfire: if it did I would have filed that jira ages ago
[13:04] Kitto Flora: For sure
[13:04] Tiberious Neruda: surprised that's not a sim crasher...
[13:04] Kitto Flora: I watched a griefer do it
[13:04] Kitto Flora: Spewing hundreds of physical prims, maybe thousands
[13:05] Andrew Linden: Well, I probably need to examine the content that killed the region. It might be possible to patch the GGF, but there are risks there too.
[13:05] Lucia Nightfire: Kiito, you're most liekly seeing SEC-1247
[13:05] Kitto Flora: AR'd them with a picture of the event
[13:05] Andrew Linden: I might break automated trains ;-)
[13:05] Kitto Flora: Hah
[13:05] Lucia Nightfire: SEC-1247 outlines how griefers are bypassing teh grey goo fence, plus a proposal on a detterent
[13:05] Rex Cronon: what if u place your own prims on the border...
[13:05] Tiberious Neruda: but if the sim can handle something at 9 million LI -wthout- choking, then... damn, server's gotta be pretty stable :3
[13:05] Andrew Linden: ok thanks for that number Lucia
[13:05] Kitto Flora: Trains only rez a new one maybe every 5 mins at most
[13:06] Andrew Linden: yeah, I was joking
[13:06] Andrew Linden: ok thanks for coming everyone
[13:06] Qie Niangao: Thanks Andrew, Simon... have fun all.
[13:06] Kitto Flora: One good thing - griefer crashed sims have been self-recovering fairly well the last 2 weeks
[13:06] Lares Carter: Thanks for the meeting.
[13:06] Lexbot Sinister: Thanks Andrew!
[13:06] Nalates Urriah: Thanks Lindens
[13:06] Rohacan Hirons: Thanks for your time
[13:06] Lucia Nightfire: the only thing that gets forced returned when 9 mil is introduced into a region is all temp set prims, they get instantly killed
[13:06] Yuzuru Jewell: Thank you, Simon and Andrew.
[13:06] Sylvie Etoile: Thank you Andrew and Simon
[13:07] Rex Cronon: tc andrew, simon
[13:07] TankMaster Finesmith: havea good week, andrew and simon
[13:07] Rex Cronon: tc all those leaving
[13:07] Lucia Nightfire: later
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