Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2011.11.01

Simulator_User_Group
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== List of Speakers ==
Amanda Dallin 	Andrew Linden 	Armano Xaris
Cher Bravin 	Fearless Freenote 	Flip Idlemind
Imaze Rhiano 	Jen Shikami 	JoyofRLC Acker
Kallista Destiny	Kelly Linden 	kittensusie Landar
Leonel Iceghost 	Liisa Runo 	NielArcher
Qie Niangao 	RegY Constantine 	Renae Daines
Rex Cronon 	Sahkolihaa Contepomi	Scattered Sideways
Simon Linden 	Sin Toshi 	sundhi Joubert
Techwolf Lupindo	Tillie Ariantho 	Vickie Maidstone
Vincent Nacon 	DelCorazon 	
== Transcript ==
[12:03] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Hey Andrew.
[12:03] Simon Linden: There was a new server roll this morning
[12:03] Simon Linden: Details are here: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2011-10-31/td-p/1200735
[12:03] Andrew Linden: Hello
[12:03] Rex Cronon: hello andrew
[12:03] Vincent Nacon: heya
[12:03] Simon Linden: This was a bunch of bug fixes that have been in RC for a couple of weeks
[12:03] Vickie Maidstone: hi Andrew
[12:03] Tillie Ariantho: yah, and my sim still down after 45 minutes. ^^
[12:03] sundhi Joubert: hey andrew:)
[12:04] JoyofRLC Acker: You arent alone Tim
[12:04] JoyofRLC Acker: Its terrible today
[12:04] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: One sim I manage was down for 45 minutes but came back up just as I was in the process of filing a ticket on it.
[12:04] Simon Linden: yeah, there were some problems un-related to the new server itself, but they made the shutdown and restart painful
[12:04] JoyofRLC Acker: What probolems, Simon?
[12:04] Tillie Ariantho: So I shall wait till after this meeting and then check again. ^^
[12:05] Simon Linden: There has been some investigative work last week and this week to fix those, and we have changes in the pipeline
[12:05] Andrew Linden: What region Tillie?
[12:05] Renae Daines: Had a fun issue this morning: Single greifer hit a few of our regions and skewed terrain. Still waiting for RR to clear up so logs can be viewed as to if these were legitimate I-D-10-T errors or some other type of exploit ... too coincidental that it all happened right after those regions came back up from the restart though ;)
[12:05] Vincent Nacon: can we start with the news first?
[12:06] Vincent Nacon: I know there's a lot of sim crashing going on
[12:06] Rex Cronon: interesting. so now u can mess with the land too?
[12:06] Simon Linden: Outside of the rough rollout, I don't have any ... Andrew, do you?
[12:06] Renae Daines: Not sure Rex, just something I noticed right after restarts happened on those regions... bug.. user error.. exploit.. no idea at this time =)
[12:06] Tillie Ariantho: (beta client just crashed me without crashlog)
[12:07] JoyofRLC Acker: I think that some of us thing the rollout is news --- this one is excepeitonally bad it seems
[12:07] Vickie Maidstone: yes I agree Joy
[12:07] Vickie Maidstone: its made our sailing really bad recently
[12:07] Scattered Sideways: or impossible
[12:08] kittensusie Landar: made it impossible
[12:08] sundhi Joubert: number of races had to be cancelled...
[12:08] RegY Constantine: impossible
[12:08] Fearless Freenote: IMpossible!!!
[12:08] JoyofRLC Acker: At least one club has now cancelled races until further notice Im told.
[12:08] kittensusie Landar: flying is even worse, an exercise in how many sims you can fly through
[12:08] JoyofRLC Acker: I would say that LL is in danger of reputational risk here.
[12:08] Scattered Sideways: we actually had pirates conceeding fighting sail battles to LL
[12:08] Vickie Maidstone: yes Joy
[12:08] RegY Constantine: none practically... nautilus is completelly uncrossable... 3 sims and you can relog
[12:09] Andrew Linden: Not much news. I've been figuring out how to add "web services" so I haven't been paying attention to today's rollout.
[12:09] Vickie Maidstone: we had people crashing last night BEFORE crossing the start line in Atlantic
[12:09] JoyofRLC Acker: I understand the NO WIne policy, but would like to make a couple of points.
[12:09] Fearless Freenote: yes!
[12:09] Qie Niangao: (at some point I'd be interested in any more details about the unrelated problems for which fixes are in the pipeline)
[12:10] kittensusie Landar: on the LCC cruise on Sunday, no-one made the finish
[12:10] Andrew Linden: The bad sailing started "recently"? but not coincident with today's rollout?
[12:10] JoyofRLC Acker: This is just an acute manifestation of what has been an ongoing problem.
[12:10] Fearless Freenote: for years!
[12:10] Fearless Freenote: and getting worse
[12:10] kittensusie Landar: Blake has been bad for a couple of weeks, but everywhere sucks generally
[12:10] Rex Cronon: if nobody was able to finish the sailing race, that is not good:(
[12:10] JoyofRLC Acker: Communication seens to go in waves, from nil to poor and back again. There is always some sort of explanation.
[12:11] Fearless Freenote: Not even being able to start is much worse
[12:11] JoyofRLC Acker: But the cycle repeats - its eems to e thee has to be a root cuase on how things are done.
[12:11] Techwolf Lupindo: I notice there was a grid status about regines not comming back up....then a second grid status of emergisity mataince. This was over the past weekend.
[12:12] JoyofRLC Acker: So how do we get LL to look at how it does things?
[12:12] Vincent Nacon: must be fall season now
[12:13] Andrew Linden: Well, this is a pretty good way: showing up to User Group and laying out your complaints.
[12:13] RegY Constantine: but jiras are written and shut down about this since 2007
[12:13] JoyofRLC Acker: Im no techy but it seems to me the policy of releasing bugs every week , er sorry upgrades, has to be risky.
[12:13] Imaze Rhiano: letting steam out, hitting punch bag....
[12:13] Fearless Freenote: What, Andrew, is being done to fix this?
[12:13] kittensusie Landar: all you have to do is listen in to the group chats, you will hear complaints every day
[12:13] Ultimate Flight Band: All Go
[12:13] JoyofRLC Acker: a real strecth for QA and project managhgemnt.
[12:14] Andrew Linden: But I'm out of touch with what's going on in maintenance right now.
[12:14] JoyofRLC Acker: clearly, something isnt working.
[12:14] Renae Daines: On the new rolls outs - any preliminary results of better net-time/control override performance?
[12:14] Vickie Maidstone: and like it was mentioned one sailing club has suspended all their races so far if I'm correct
[12:14] Simon Linden: I think that code is going to RC tomorrow, Renae
[12:14] JoyofRLC Acker: judging by results (or lack of)
[12:14] Vincent Nacon: Everyone.. please keep in mind that this meeting isn't the best place to send your complaint, even if it's server related
[12:14] RegY Constantine: no offence, but Andrew, can you direct us to someone who can?
[12:14] kittensusie Landar: yes, Triumphal
[12:14] sundhi Joubert: the sailing community...the aviation community...etc....add up to a large number of ppl...we are stable and spend lindens.....we should be heard somewhere
[12:15] Rex Cronon: vincent. i think andrew just said for people to bring their complaints here:)
[12:15] JoyofRLC Acker: I realise that .... the timing is fortuituous that the shambles with the rollout accumulated a lot of frustrated sailors in one chat group LOL
[12:15] Vincent Nacon: still
[12:15] JoyofRLC Acker: dont forget Trains!
[12:15] Simon Linden: We definitely want to hear about problems, but also be aware that we've heard that lag, crossings and Ruth are bad.
[12:15] Simon Linden: When it's new ... and I think something is going on here .. it's worth reporting
[12:15] Fearless Freenote: what's being done????
[12:15] Andrew Linden: Well, it sounds like we need to do a sprint on vehicle crossings Simon.
[12:16] JoyofRLC Acker: I think one of the questions we have is --- what is "normal"? what should we expect?
[12:16] kittensusie Landar: yes!
[12:16] Simon Linden: Someone has been working on a major overhaul of crossings for about a month
[12:16] Vincent Nacon: aye, just want to make sure people don't get too upset if Simon and Andrew aren't doing anything about it like.... right now
[12:16] JoyofRLC Acker: Of course not.
[12:16] kittensusie Landar: i read in a forum that it was being looked into, but that message was from 3 years or more ago
[12:16] RegY Constantine: we know it's a major issue, and can't be fixed in an hour
[12:16] Fearless Freenote: :)
[12:16] Kallista Destiny: If you're interested in the server code, the secondlfe beta group, with meetings on Aditi Thursday afternoon Second Life Beta
[12:16] Andrew Linden: hrm... when's the ETA for that to start to hit QA I wonder.
[12:17] JoyofRLC Acker: And ... btw Im just speaking for myself ... my concern is that - maybe the current problem does get solved. But there will then be a new one.
[12:17] Rex Cronon: IMO is the maintanance lindens that should have office hours;)
[12:17] Simon Linden: The best way to make crossings better, and the biggest way it can be fixed up, is taking a _very_ hard look at every script you have on and getting rid of ANY that you can
[12:17] DelCorazon: my income in sl comes from these people that sail , in turn I pay to have a place to sell my goods out of and keep my magic box, if that sim is down my box is down , I can't pay my shop or sell off the market, my payments help support sim tiers, id I'm not paying they don't pay their tiers , and LL loses a paying customer
[12:17] JoyofRLC Acker: Crossing are one issue.
[12:17] Simon Linden: They are the biggest issue with crossings
[12:17] JoyofRLC Acker: Sims going down is another.
[12:17] JoyofRLC Acker: Perpetual rollouts is another.
[12:17] JoyofRLC Acker: Lag is another.
[12:17] Renae Daines: In that same general category Simon.. any news on capping avatar based script usage?
[12:18] Flip Idlemind: Perpetual rollouts aren't likely to stop (...cuz they're perpetual)
[12:18] Kallista Destiny: Joy, be glad we're not rolling a new server and viewer every week.
[12:18] kittensusie Landar: i've crashed when part-way through a sim, several times
[12:18] JoyofRLC Acker: But i have to wonder if they arent part of the root cause
[12:18] Qie Niangao: As part of testing / fielding that overhaul, I wonder if there could be some automated testing of sim-crossing performance, to catch breakage early -- where the breakage could be network configuration, not only sim software changes.
[12:18] JoyofRLC Acker: Less is more you know?
[12:18] sundhi Joubert: sailor typically deprim for races
[12:19] DelCorazon: yes
[12:19] kittensusie Landar: yeah, some would race nekid if they could!
[12:19] DelCorazon: bikini works
[12:19] RegY Constantine: ofcourse... the lower the ARC, the better
[12:19] Fearless Freenote: in a heartbeat
[12:19] JoyofRLC Acker: oh we shut everything down LOL... dd of about 6 inches etc
[12:19] sundhi Joubert: even down to no hair:))
[12:19] Andrew Linden: the sailboats often attach the sails to the avatar, right?
[12:19] JoyofRLC Acker: and thats wrong really if you think about it
[12:19] Andrew Linden: using the avatar motions to move the sails
[12:19] JoyofRLC Acker: no modern boats are usually rideable
[12:19] Fearless Freenote: how can this be going on for sooo loong???
[12:19] Andrew Linden: or to avoid complexity limits of vehicles?
[12:20] RegY Constantine: andrew, most race boats are non attach
[12:20] RegY Constantine: even under the 32 prim limit
[12:20] kittensusie Landar: just rezz the boats and board them
[12:20] Rex Cronon: i am sorry to say, but i think that meshes might be the cause of a lot of these problems due to their size:(
[12:20] kittensusie Landar: some you have to rezz the base unit, then wear the hull
[12:20] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Size?
[12:20] DelCorazon: yes mine is under 32 prim
[12:20] JoyofRLC Acker: but thats less common now Kiettensusie
[12:20] Simon Linden: Are any of these boats or sails mesh?
[12:20] DelCorazon: no
[12:20] kittensusie Landar: yep
[12:20] RegY Constantine: no
[12:20] JoyofRLC Acker: I think mesh is minorty atm
[12:20] kittensusie Landar: that yep was to Joyo :)
[12:21] RegY Constantine: sculpties at most
[12:21] kittensusie Landar: no, none are mesh
[12:21] JoyofRLC Acker: they ate both right lol
[12:21] DelCorazon: I don't run a mesh boat because I don't run a mesh viewer
[12:21] Amanda Dallin: I have not seen a mesh boat yet.
[12:21] Vickie Maidstone: most of what we sail at under the 32 prim limit, but still
[12:21] Rex Cronon: not physical size. the size of bytes it needs to send over the wire
[12:21] sundhi Joubert: same here
[12:21] JoyofRLC Acker: i have seen a cppl of experimtal mesh boats
[12:21] JoyofRLC Acker: not priduction
[12:21] Simon Linden: ok ... and certainly using older boats that used to work ok keeps the number of variables down
[12:21] Vickie Maidstone: I saw one recently
[12:21] Armano Xaris: Are you aware that a major contributor to sailing community estate wise allready look to new digital worlds to use? I have read on a forum a while ago some are doing this. What would be reason of this?
[12:21] Andrew Linden: ok sounds like mesh isn't to blame
[12:21] JoyofRLC Acker: yes simon
[12:22] Rex Cronon: people already have mesh avatars, and attachments
[12:22] Amanda Dallin: the problems got much worse when Mesh was rolled out on the servers
[12:22] kittensusie Landar: i use the WildWind RCJ-44 most of the time, that's over 3 years old? still crashed several times on Sunday before giving up
[12:22] JoyofRLC Acker: Armano - thats why I think - big picture - LL should be very concerned at all this
[12:22] Qie Niangao: (unless Mesh were affecting something more systemic, not specific to the vehicles involved... but I doubt there's enough Mesh on the grid to do that)
[12:22] Simon Linden: Is there a particular point in time the crossings got bad, or has it been a slow degredation?
[12:22] JoyofRLC Acker: we wont know peoples breaking pont until after they have gone
[12:22] JoyofRLC Acker: a few years
[12:22] Scattered Sideways: Simon the hand offs from sim to sim are horrid
[12:22] kittensusie Landar: it got really bad in Blake about 2-3 weeks ago.....
[12:22] JoyofRLC Acker: it goes in waves sometimes they improve then they get worse again
[12:22] Fearless Freenote: mine's close...
[12:22] Liisa Runo: it is strange that some people say that border corssing is getting worse, and some(me included) say that they are getting better. Nowdays i often travel from the one end of a continent to another end and no problems (snowglobe viewer)
[12:23] Kallista Destiny: actually I've founf region crossings to be pretty good reciently
[12:23] RegY Constantine: it's been bad a few years... but it just got worse since LL started embedding mesh
[12:23] RegY Constantine: even with non-mesh viewers
[12:23] Tillie Ariantho: (oh, my sim is back up after like 50 minutes) ^^
[12:23] Vincent Nacon: may not be related to Mesh, could be Havok's update that came with it
[12:23] Simon Linden: Crossings are significantly better than they were a year ago ... we made a nice change in January that cut down the time, but unfortuately at the cost of a lag event in teh region you were leaving
[12:23] Simon Linden: Since then it's been up and down
[12:23] kittensusie Landar: a lot of areas have been virtually impossible to sail on for years - north coast of Corsica for eg
[12:23] Renae Daines: Remember to take into account that some regions were also experiencing different problems would would make region crossings fail too - had nothing to really do specifically to crossings but more in tune to region performance
[12:23] JoyofRLC Acker: i hestitate to say this not being an expert but i suspect that "region crossing" may be too broad a term
[12:24] JoyofRLC Acker: as a sailor various things can happen
[12:24] Scattered Sideways: sim to sim hand offs have been causing multilateral issues across the grid
[12:24] JoyofRLC Acker: flying / submarining / eow
[12:24] JoyofRLC Acker: rubber banding
[12:24] JoyofRLC Acker: avi gets logge dout
[12:24] Andrew Linden: Nevertheless, vehicle crossings is narrow enough to address.
[12:24] Andrew Linden: Another focus would be attachment/script heavy crossings.
[12:24] JoyofRLC Acker: Koli - cone sail with us - it wll take probably 40 minutes tops
[12:25] Simon Linden: There are a lot of ways a crossing can go bad ... it's complicated.
[12:25] kittensusie Landar: 40 minutes and several crashes......
[12:25] JoyofRLC Acker: exactly simon
[12:25] RegY Constantine: i agree andrew... but both are very hard to do latelly in the nautilus and blake sea areas
[12:25] JoyofRLC Acker: its more than just "failing"
[12:25] Vincent Nacon: or could be bad sailing script, depends on who wrote it
[12:26] Amanda Dallin: i'm being unseated from my boat on sim crossings a lot
[12:26] kittensusie Landar: i know at least one member has left SL (at least for a time) until things get better
[12:26] DelCorazon: not when it's various boats of different makers doing it
[12:26] Rex Cronon: a sailing ship script that crashes u? weird
[12:26] RegY Constantine: that happens to me at least once a day, amanda
[12:26] JoyofRLC Acker: We could go on for ages right now and im sure you have mofre agenda to cover ... Id like to see a couple of things ... evidence that all of the 'techinal; aspecta are actually being addresses
[12:26] kittensusie Landar: yep, that happened to me a few times Sunday cruise
[12:26] Scattered Sideways: unseated, thrown across the sim, then crash........at sim cross
[12:26] JoyofRLC Acker: but also ... a hard look at reoot causes.
[12:27] Rex Cronon: if everytime a user crashed on a crossing a detailed status report was sent to the lindens...
[12:27] Vincent Nacon: I know some of the boats would have their own form of "anti-sim rubberbaning" scripts which actually make things worst.
[12:27] Vincent Nacon: same with cars
[12:27] Vincent Nacon: and planes
[12:28] Leonel Iceghost: do you crash more then many cross the sim at the same time? or it is ramdom
[12:28] Leonel Iceghost: when many*
[12:28] Vincent Nacon: so that need to be checked out
[12:28] JoyofRLC Acker: in geenral Id say yes its proportional to the number of boats.
[12:28] Amanda Dallin: random.
[12:28] kittensusie Landar: Andrew and Simon, you have a good cross-section of the sailing and flying community here now, and you can see we are all more than concerned about the sim crossings. All we want is an assurance that something will be done to cure the problem
[12:28] Andrew Linden: Ok, before Friday I'll try to find out more about what we're currently doing about region crossings, and what else we're going to do about it.
[12:28] Vickie Maidstone: I can only speak for myself at this point but when I first started sailing back in JUly, I didnt know it was a huge problem till I got further along into, now I cant sail because of the constant sim border crashes I experience
[12:28] RegY Constantine: i crash all the time when i'm alone in surrounding to me about 2 or 3 sims
[12:28] JoyofRLC Acker: Its quite common tohave a large regatta, and theres a mash crash at the first sim after the start
[12:29] Andrew Linden: I'll have to ask around and maybe attend some new meetings.
[12:29] Rex Cronon: if everybody sent a crash report if/when the crashed on a crossing...
[12:29] Amanda Dallin: it got much worse the tirst week of October.
[12:29] Vickie Maidstone: or even at the start line
[12:29] RegY Constantine: thank you andrew
[12:29] JoyofRLC Acker: Thank you Andrew, Vickie - you have your tape recorder on? :)
[12:29] sundhi Joubert: :)
[12:29] RegY Constantine: and thank you very much, simon
[12:29] Vickie Maidstone: I think its on
[12:29] kittensusie Landar: if you want to see how bad the situation is, i'm sure many of us would take you for a sail or flight......
[12:30] JoyofRLC Acker: If we use "regions corssing" as one umbrella term,
[12:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[12:30] JoyofRLC Acker: may I add a second "umbrella"
[12:30] JoyofRLC Acker: Post-retart problems
[12:31] JoyofRLC Acker: Quite often things are worse after restarts than before
[12:31] Armano Xaris: I would consider at least meeting with the biggest estate owners in sailing when i was from linden labs now.
[12:31] JoyofRLC Acker: I mean thee Tues / Wed restarts --- which tells me there isnt enough testing
[12:32] Armano Xaris: I think they don't have it easy atm, and that's only because of the current rl economy.
[12:32] Armano Xaris: not only
[12:32] Andrew Linden: JoyofRLC, things are worse right after restart? What things exactly? FPS or other actions? or just region crossings?
[12:32] JoyofRLC Acker: Perhopas I should quiet down ...
[12:33] Kallista Destiny: Joy, those are two different stes of regions, 1 is the main channle, (Tuesday) Wed is the Release Candidate starts.
[12:33] Simon Linden: Joy - that's currently the times we roll out new code, there's a wiki somewhere on the process. While I would love to have significantly more QA staff to do better checking, realistically that process is not going to change in the near future
[12:33] JoyofRLC Acker: Hard to be precise Andrew. To be fiar sometimes they are better - last Tuesday for example, things were good - for about a day.
[12:33] sundhi Joubert: can you tell us the best way to document these things...
[12:33] JoyofRLC Acker: Yes I have a fuzzy undeestanding of the process.
[12:34] Leonel Iceghost: how about making bots to cross regions Simon
[12:34] Simon Linden: We usually see better performance across the board right after the rollouts
[12:34] kittensusie Landar: i have no understanding of the process at all!
[12:34] JoyofRLC Acker: interesting
[12:35] Simon Linden: Yes, I can do that already, Leonel ... drop 40-60 bots into a region and have them walk in circles. We already know crossings are bad :P
[12:35] JoyofRLC Acker: of course, there is the probolme with impressions that we tend to remember th bad and forget the good.
[12:35] Vincent Nacon: I think the lag you're feeling are when the grid are still rolling it out, even if your sim is rolled
[12:35] JoyofRLC Acker: we need better metrics perhpas
[12:35] Flip Idlemind: Basically on Wednesday they release 3 different candidates for release. Then, the following Tuesday, whichever one "wins" gets put on the whole grid
[12:35] Rex Cronon: maybe when the viewer sends a crash report(after a crash) it should specify if it took place right after a crossing?
[12:35] Andrew Linden: sundhi, when reporting a problem to LL it is best to provide as exact times as possible, and region name
[12:35] Flip Idlemind: Rinse and repeat
[12:35] Vincent Nacon: just have to wait for the whole rolling restart to complete
[12:35] JoyofRLC Acker: could be, Vincent
[12:35] DelCorazon: I've seen them bogged down so bad you can't move, teleport or anything else after rollouts
[12:36] JoyofRLC Acker: I am in an unusual psotion with a (very lonfg establisegd) race shceduled at 11 am Tuesday.
[12:36] Andrew Linden: the servers log lots of stuff, and it can be hard to sort through without accurate times of the events -- lots of noise
[12:36] Vincent Nacon: yeah, you gotta wait for the full rolling compelete
[12:36] JoyofRLC Acker: So i get an early read on the quality of the riollout LOL
[12:36] Scattered Sideways: yes, Corazon it right - no tps nothing... not even walking
[12:36] Simon Linden: I think this is accurate : http://community.secondlife.com/t5/UPGRADE-The-Release-Team-Blog/New-Deploy-Process/ba-p/664747
[12:36] Qie Niangao: If/when ready for a different topic: Does it pose a problem for SL that Google is going to charge heavy users of the MapAPI? (If that's been covered before, sorry; I have some MoaP scripts that might hit that API pretty hard if I let them)
[12:37] Andrew Linden: JoyofRLC, what regions do the Tues race go through?
[12:37] Jen Shikami: Also if/when ready for another topic, I'm really eager to discuss https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SCR-37
[12:37] JIRA-helper: [#SCR-37] llGiveMoney() method needs a money_given() event handler.
[12:37] Rex Cronon: what does google map have to do with sl?
[12:37] Flip Idlemind: Doesn't Google literally have infinite resources?
[12:37] Kelly Linden: okay.
[12:37] RegY Constantine: andrew, lemme send you the map
[12:37] Amanda Dallin: you can see patterens in long established races too. mine had almost no racers lost to crashing in september but about half of them crashed in the october races.
[12:37] kittensusie Landar: yes, lets drop the sim-crossings now, i'm sure we've said enough on that subject for now.......
[12:37] Qie Niangao: Rex, maybe nothing, but everything drawn by the SL MapAPI has a google copyright stamped on it.
[12:37] Imaze Rhiano: do you have link to that google map news?
[12:37] JoyofRLC Acker: Varies - basiocally Blake, Sailors Cove. Dire starits - those areas, thats my 11 am - of course there are other races on Tuesdays too
[12:37] Kelly Linden: I am working on key llTransferMoney(key id, integer amount) and transaction_result(key id, integer success, string message)
[12:38] Rex Cronon: oh
[12:38] Tillie Ariantho: Looks like the beta client has a problem. I see names like: Arwyn Juniper Quandry (arwyn.quandry)Arwyn Juniper Quandry (arwyn.quandry)
[12:38] Kelly Linden: llTransferMoney returns a key for a transaction_result event that will fire with success TRUE or FALSE, and if FALSE an error message about why.
[12:38] JoyofRLC Acker: thats a QA problem Tillie
[12:38] JoyofRLC Acker: lmao
[12:38] JoyofRLC Acker: or AQ
[12:39] Andrew Linden: I see. That race goes through a bunch of Homestead regions.
[12:39] Kelly Linden: That is about the sum of it, Jen
[12:39] Jen Shikami: That sounds fabulous, Kelly. This recently-increased exploit on affiliate vendors (all affiliate vendors) has costs our business thousands and thousands of U.S. dollars a month, and required us to do about 30 hours of extra work a week... and that's just us, others are going out of business entirely.
[12:40] Jen Shikami: Any idea when that might become usable, Kelly?
[12:40] Qie Niangao: imaze, here's one: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15523050
[12:40] Flip Idlemind: Speaking on things that would improve vendor scripts, what's the status of that thing where you can request someone's key by their name (The JIRA number on that escapes me, as well as what the function or functions are being called)
[12:40] Kelly Linden: It should be in the server maintenance after next.
[12:40] NielArcher: Tillie, those are display and user names
[12:40] Rex Cronon: exploit of affiliate vendors?
[12:40] Kelly Linden: We promoted a server maintenance today to main release, we have another that has been in QA (and is frozen) and it should be in the one after that.
[12:40] Vincent Nacon: homestead isn't the best choice for vehicle racing
[12:40] Tillie Ariantho: NielArcher: yes, but doubled. I see name(realname)name(realname)
[12:40] Sin Toshi: wow...that's exciting, Kelly!
[12:41] Qie Niangao: (it may be only if it uses Google's geo data, I dunno. that's why I asked)
[12:41] Jen Shikami: Yes, all affiliate vendors in SL are vulnerable to exploits taking advantage of this: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SCR-37?
[12:41] JIRA-helper: [#SCR-37] llGiveMoney() method needs a money_given() event handler.
[12:41] Jen Shikami: Oh, that is VERY exciting Kelly! What a tremendous relief that would be.
[12:41] Rex Cronon: oh. that one
[12:41] Vincent Nacon: ahh we did talk about that other weeks ago
[12:41] DelCorazon: Vincent not everyone has the funds to buy several full sims , those homesteads are owned by one person
[12:41] Andrew Linden: And server maintenance delivery's arrive every two weeks or so, right?
[12:42] Kelly Linden: been a little slower lately, depends a bit on how active the release pipeline is with other projects.
[12:42] Vincent Nacon: I know, that's why we have a racing sim that has 12 race tracks in it, all up in the key
[12:42] Vincent Nacon: sky*
[12:42] Kelly Linden: A 'full' release pipeline will see a server maintenance release probably closer to every 3-5 weeks.
[12:42] Flip Idlemind: BTW SCR-91 is what I was thinking of
[12:42] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SCR-91
[#SCR-91] llRequestAgentKey (llName2Key)
[12:42] Jen Shikami: So the easiest way to know when that kicks in would be to watch that JIRA? Or watch release notes?
[12:42] Vincent Nacon: we don't like simcrossing, mind you
[12:43] Kelly Linden: Jen: both
[12:43] DelCorazon: my boat usually handles sim crossing fine , not lately though
[12:43] Vincent Nacon: we had mega sim before, didn't we?
[12:43] Scattered Sideways: I'm liking your thinking Tillie!!
[12:43] Jen Shikami: Great! Thank you so SO much.
[12:43] Simon Linden: Not in SL ... I sure would love to work on that, however
[12:43] kittensusie Landar: i like that idea too
[12:43] Tillie Ariantho: Scattered: :P
[12:43] Jen Shikami: This has been really hellish since some hackers started targeting us in summer with blackmail attempts, etc.
[12:44] Flip Idlemind: "Megasims" would have issues, because I think there are a lot of things that expect a sim to be 256x256 and nothing else
[12:44] Flip Idlemind: Could be wrong though
[12:44] Flip Idlemind: Also, SCR-91
[12:44] Jen Shikami: And even aside from the effect on us as a business... our whole community has been hurt because it's really not convenient for them if they can't even have their own bait vendor for fishing. (not to mention the endless other affiliate vendor users out there)
[12:44] Simon Linden: Yes Flip, that's very true ... if it was easy, we'd have them by now
[12:45] Tillie Ariantho: Thats it, let's nail him down on that. We'll turn Simons 'would love to' into 'Im going to' and then poke him with a stick each week, asking if it's done already. :P
[12:45] Vincent Nacon: anywho, this was just posted http://status.secondlifegrid.net/2011/11/01/post1464/
[12:45] kittensusie Landar: or even have whole areas of sims covered by the same server instead of being scattered throughout the States
[12:45] Vincent Nacon: so they're working on it no
[12:45] Vincent Nacon: now*
[12:45] Simon Linden: I just slave in the code mines, digging in the direction I'm told. You gotta convince the boss man :)
[12:45] Tillie Ariantho: durnit. :P
[12:46] Scattered Sideways: Simon!
[12:46] RegY Constantine: lol
[12:46] Jen Shikami: Heheheh
[12:46] RegY Constantine: i'mma put that quote in my profile lol
[12:46] RegY Constantine: kidding
[12:46] Tillie Ariantho: I thought Linden Lab is communistic, seems it has a dictator on top. :P
[12:47] Leonel Iceghost: Simon do you think you can slowly refer all 256 literals to a single constant in one place?
[12:47] Rex Cronon: very funny tillie:)
[12:47] Leonel Iceghost: at least to dig in the direction you want a bit :P
[12:47] Vincent Nacon: favorite quote so far....
[12:47] Vincent Nacon: [16:50] tehKellz (kelly.linden): I have no comments on what I may or may not have done to any sexbed.
[12:48] Tillie Ariantho: I thought the dictator is us. At least we got the evil side bar away. Success! ;D
[12:48] Liisa Runo: LL is owned by handfull of people, they all got their 500million dollars already so they concentrate on drinking martini's at the beach, they are hard to get convinced of anything
[12:48] Simon Linden: That's the easy part, Leonel (and I've looked into it). It gets interesting when we have to send a larger chunk of terrrain to the viewer, more wind and cloud data, then get rid of the expectation on both ends that the region ends at 256m
[12:49] Vincent Nacon: they can't just use all that money for whatever they need
[12:49] Simon Linden: ... and you woudn't belive how hard it is to get a good martini these days, Liisa
[12:49] Vincent Nacon: they got bills
[12:49] Leonel Iceghost: lol
[12:49] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Render would need some changes for the texture mixing over larger terrains, too. Although that's probably simple.
[12:49] Flip Idlemind: So I was happy to see that SVC-7404 got an Assignee :D
[12:49] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7404
[#SVC-7404] Display Name Lookups Fail for Banned Accounts
[12:49] Tillie Ariantho: Why more wind and cloud data, I thought this is a simple formular for the whole sim?
[12:49] Vincent Nacon: cloud?
[12:50] Simon Linden: oh yeah, I had some info on that too Flip -- apparently their estate was also another complication
[12:50] Vincent Nacon: windlight?
[12:50] JoyofRLC Acker: Wind?
[12:50] Flip Idlemind: I figured it was something like that
[12:50] Simon Linden: but it looks like a database issue
[12:50] Tillie Ariantho: Dont tell me it's 256x256 wind and cloud values you send to the client?
[12:50] JoyofRLC Acker: <--- head snaps back up
[12:50] JoyofRLC Acker: is anyone looking at SL wind?
[12:50] Vincent Nacon: yeah there's a wind data in every sim
[12:50] JoyofRLC Acker: get this --- sailors IGNORE that
[12:50] JoyofRLC Acker: we do our own LOL
[12:50] Tillie Ariantho: Yah, one. But that doesnt change if the sim is larger, right?
[12:50] Flip Idlemind: There's llCloud()
[12:50] Flip Idlemind: I think
[12:51] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: oO
[12:51] Vincent Nacon: cloud are not generated...
[12:51] Simon Linden: There's some legacy data ... actually, this is a perfect time ... if we got rid of wind, would anybody notice?
[12:51] Andrew Linden: the cloud layer is only used by V1 viewers
[12:51] Vincent Nacon: yes
[12:51] Vincent Nacon: a lot of people
[12:51] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: I think removing wind would break a lot of wind-type vehicles.
[12:51] Rex Cronon: don't remove the wind and clouds. they make things interesting
[12:51] Vincent Nacon: mostly in Planes and Sailing
[12:51] Renae Daines: if it helps a region perform just a tiny bit better, I'd say make it go away... but that would break content
[12:51] Liisa Runo: people would notice the lack of wind, some sailboats actually use it
[12:51] Flip Idlemind: I had an idea of making a windmill or something that would have used llWind
[12:51] Andrew Linden: the wind is accessible via script, but it is too unreliable for sailing
[12:51] Vincent Nacon: cloud is useless
[12:51] Simon Linden: I wonder if we should make that a per-region option ... getting rid of a few packets might help a little bit
[12:51] Flip Idlemind: I got lazy and never actually did it, but still..
[12:52] Vincent Nacon: but yes, there's a lot of sailing boat that still use wind
[12:52] Rex Cronon: in rl wind is also unrelable:)
[12:52] kittensusie Landar: sailors always set their own wind speed and direction anyway
[12:52] Renae Daines: and personally I turn the wind sound off.. so...
[12:52] JoyofRLC Acker: fwiw Andrew, sailors could care less.
[12:52] Armano Xaris: As far as i know most sailing boats don't really use sl wind.
[12:52] Leonel Iceghost: Andrew yes please remove then and give us proper Fog and whether chip rendering
[12:52] Armano Xaris: We don't need it to my opinion.
[12:52] Vincent Nacon: yeah they do
[12:52] Vincent Nacon: maybe not racing kinds
[12:52] JoyofRLC Acker: In an IDEAL world SL would make SL wind something sensible, but we doubt that woudl happen
[12:53] Simon Linden: ok, well, that encapsulates our problems nicely ... some people care, some don't
[12:53] kittensusie Landar: could windmills be set up with 'artificial' wind like sailors use?
[12:53] Andrew Linden: What would sensible wind look like?
[12:53] Scattered Sideways: Andrew and Simon, if I may, we've not changed what we are doing in SL, but the SL performance has degraded for ALL of us upon late and we are simply asking to have the problems fixed......
[12:53] JoyofRLC Acker: SL wind is so flukey youcant sail with it,
[12:53] Tillie Ariantho: Andrew: It would move hair and clothing properly. =)
[12:53] Rex Cronon: lets have a show of hands. who wants wind to stay. i vote yes:_
[12:53] Rex Cronon: :)
[12:53] Vincent Nacon: it's not up to you, Rex
[12:54] Imaze Rhiano: sensible wind - maybe data for clothing simulator someday
[12:54] JoyofRLC Acker: stay wehere Rex, in SL ?
[12:54] Renae Daines: I wouldn't notice it being gone, then again i don't notice it being here either
[12:54] Amanda Dallin: SL wind will change directions 360 degrees in 5 or 10 minutes. makes it really hard to sail
[12:54] RegY Constantine: i really don't think wind is needed...
[12:54] Simon Linden: Understood, Scattered
[12:54] JoyofRLC Acker: and water with waves that relate to the wind and crrent direction
[12:54] Tillie Ariantho: yes, clothing simulator, let's vote for it! WANT. ;D
[12:54] JoyofRLC Acker: <--- dreams happily on ...
[12:54] Rex Cronon: yes in sl. and i know is not up to me. just want to see how many here want wind:)
[12:54] Flip Idlemind: I feel like things would break if it were removed, even if I'm not sure what would
[12:54] Cher Bravin: sl wind sucks for sailing, never use it
[12:54] JoyofRLC Acker: and blows, Cher.
[12:54] Sin Toshi: if there are advatantages to removing wind, then I think it should be considered. I would never want to keep wind no matter what
[12:54] Cher Bravin: lol
[12:55] Andrew Linden: a cheaper wind would be a simple single vector world-wide -- all regions report the same wind at all locations
[12:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[12:55] Simon Linden: Water and waves at this point are really all viewer effects, fwiw. It would be really cool to have actual waves, but that's so far off into the future it's a dream
[12:55] JoyofRLC Acker: Yes if it helps, im sure we all vote to remove it.
[12:55] Vincent Nacon: we can alway improve the wind
[12:55] JoyofRLC Acker: <-- puts on hard hat
[12:55] Kallista Destiny: Yes but that wind modle would be quite unralistic
[12:55] Imaze Rhiano: we could also remove land - I have allways wanted to have proper space sim
[12:55] Rex Cronon: is impossible to have a single vecto wind on the whole sim. that would have to be a storm:)
[12:55] Vincent Nacon: make wind data smaller and simplier
[12:55] Tillie Ariantho: All sailing boats are cheating with scripts, right? Maybe you add some scripted 'wind server' which the boat scripts have to respect. =)
[12:55] Qie Niangao: I have a weathervane that responds to llWind, and some windchimes do, too... it's not importantly different from a random number generator, but content would break if there were no llWind at all.
[12:56] Andrew Linden: yes but... as long as the actual direction changes in an interesting way... why would anyone care if it was uniform?
[12:56] Kallista Destiny: ballonists?
[12:56] Flip Idlemind: It would be interesting if every copy of that particular wind chime, for example, were being affected by the exact same wind vector
[12:56] kittensusie Landar: don't balloonists use artificial wind just like the sailors?
[12:56] Vincent Nacon: even I wrote a air friction formula to use wind affecting my car
[12:56] Jen Shikami: I don't know much about sailing but I'd be surprised if anyone even noticed if the change was uniform by region.
[12:56] Tillie Ariantho: Imaze: wouldn't that be just a toggle in the sim setting? [ ] Disable land? :) Sounds rather simple to do on server side. ;)
[12:57] Jen Shikami: You'd have to be in two different regions at once to spot that, after all...
[12:57] Kallista Destiny: or looking at flags/clothing in two diferent region.
[12:57] Tillie Ariantho: And then another land entry: Gravity factor: [numeral] =)
[12:58] JoyofRLC Acker: Guys ,,, this is quite a big topic
[12:58] Rex Cronon: btw. previously i meant to say an vector wind for the whole grid
[12:58] Simon Linden: What's the difference between disabling land, and just putting the whole thing at 1m with a black texture?
[12:58] JoyofRLC Acker: wind that is.
[12:58] Jen Shikami: Personally, when I'm in RL, I'd be pretty surprised if the wind was going a totally opposite direction a couple of blocks away.
[12:58] RegY Constantine: sorry i have to leave before hand... thank you all, great info... hope to see you all soon
[12:58] Vickie Maidstone: see ya Regy
[12:58] Rex Cronon: tc
[12:58] JoyofRLC Acker: if you are serious about 'doing it right'theres a number of people would like to have input i think (inclusing me LOL)
[12:58] kittensusie Landar: bye Regy
[12:58] Kallista Destiny: In a city? I'd be surprised if it wern't buildings do very strange things to local wind
[12:58] JoyofRLC Acker: Quite a lot of LSL code has been wriytten aroudn this
[12:58] Tillie Ariantho: Simon: you cant use the star maps that were done for SL.
[12:59] Vincent Nacon: yeah the stars are random
[12:59] Vincent Nacon: each time you log on
[12:59] Andrew Linden: I'm not really interested in doing it "right", but am mildly interested in making wind cheaper to compute and more useful... for whatever wind is useful for
[12:59] kittensusie Landar: i was surprised they aren't taken from a RL star map
[12:59] Tillie Ariantho: Someone start a wiki page about wind and then lets add all the use cases and ideas and caveats =)
[12:59] Jen Shikami: I'm just using "blocks" as an arbitrary unit measure. Most of the sailing/balloning/flying in SL won't be on busy city streets? ... although that could be fun. ;)
[12:59] Kallista Destiny: Also the Goreans would really love to beable to have thre smaller moons
[12:59] Renae Daines: removing wind would break content.. that's really the deciding factor.. just make it one vector that changed based on time or something =p
[13:00] Tillie Ariantho: kitten: that's what I meant. There IS a hack for a real starmap. :)
[13:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[13:00] kittensusie Landar: ah right :)
[13:00] Vincent Nacon: yeah, bad idea to remove it but they could improve it
[13:00] Rex Cronon: i think u might be able to have a global wind vector, but add turbulence in each sim:)
[13:00] Tillie Ariantho: I think Robin Cornelius made that star map thingy.
[13:00] Vincent Nacon: plus, there's a lot of particles that use wind effect
[13:00] Qie Niangao: particles and flexi prims
[13:00] Tillie Ariantho: There's even a jira with the star map thingy in.
[13:00] Andrew Linden: I've got to attend another meeting now.
[13:00] kittensusie Landar: true - snow and stuff
[13:00] Vincent Nacon: alrighty, take care
[13:00] Simon Linden: We could probably lessen the current CPU load for wind by just making it uniform and not changing, but I'm sure it would break something and thus would have to be an option
[13:01] Rex Cronon: tc andrew
[13:01] Andrew Linden: Thansk for coming.
[13:01] kittensusie Landar: thank you Andrew :)
[13:01] Tillie Ariantho: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24316
[13:01] JIRA-helper: [#VWR-24316] Real star maps
[13:01] Vincent Nacon: thanks for coming out, even the whole Sailing group
[13:01] Tillie Ariantho: There it is.
[13:01] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: See you Andrew, Simon & Kelly.
[13:01] Qie Niangao: Thanks Andrew, Simon, Kelly... all.
[13:01] Vickie Maidstone: thansk Andrew, Simon
[13:01] Kelly Linden: o/
[13:01] kittensusie Landar: and thank you too Simon :)
[13:01] Simon Linden: Thanks everyone for coming today and the conversation
[13:01] Renae Daines: Thanks all
[13:01] Imaze Rhiano: thanks lindens
[13:01] Rex Cronon: tc simon
[13:01] Renae Daines: Looking forward to those server improvements ;)
[13:01] Jen Shikami: Thanks for those details, Kelly!
[13:01] kittensusie Landar: all right, i can't stand up...... who put superglue on my bum?
[13:02] Jen Shikami: (and everyone! but of course I'm extra happy about my pet issue. ;)
[13:02] Tillie Ariantho: haha
[13:02] DelCorazon: looking forward to just being able to sail
[13:02] Rex Cronon: tc everybode, and have a nice day:)
[13:02] JoyofRLC Acker: Thank you Andrew and Simon,
[13:02] Imaze Rhiano: where I can try this sailing?
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