Beta Server Office Hours/Minutes/2010-07-08

Category:Beta Server Office Hours - Minutes
This meeting was held on July 8th, 2010
= Agenda =
* Discuss resolution of previous open items.
* Updates
** What are we doing with 1.40
*** How you can help.
** Thoughts on llCastRay()
*** https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlCastRay
** Accounts on ADITI
*** Working with ambroff on some new copying account methods
** Public Beta Testing.
*** What would make things easier for you?
*** What works?
*** What doesn't?
*** A new idea.
* Releases
* Any other business
= Resolved Items =
= Meeting Minutes =
= Transcript =
Transcript of Oskar Linden's Beta Server Office Hour for July 8th, 2010:
* [15:02] Zwagoth Klaar: Only 30?
* [15:02] XLR8RRICK Hudson: 30 out of 25 cool
* [15:02] Holger Gilruth: omg my graphic card is broken i see comic style
* [15:02] Add On: Simon Linden detected in this region
* [15:02] Ovaltine Constantine: text.status.Back to 1.38? Yay?
* [15:03] Lares Carter: hi Oskar, hi Maestro :)
* [15:03] Latif Khalifa: my password got changed, i figure they synced the accounts from agni
* [15:03] Maestro Linden: hi guys
* [15:03] Holger Gilruth: toleys office hour?
* [15:03] XLR8RRICK Hudson: All Rise
* [15:03] Oskar Linden: hidely ho
* [15:03] Oskar Linden: sorry I'm late
* [15:03] Oskar Linden: I was at a very fascinating meeting on the future of deploys
* [15:03] Oskar Linden: very cool stuff
* [15:03] Latif Khalifa: hey Oskar, Maestro
* [15:03] ATechwolf Foxclaw: Another 2.0 bug found. Won't show more then 20 gorups if they are long names.
* [15:03] Ovaltine Constantine: There's a future of deploys?
* [15:03] Trendone Engineer: test
* [15:03] Holger Gilruth: automatic rolling restart button implementation :)
* [15:03] Oskar Linden: there is a future of deploys
* [15:04] Ovaltine Constantine: YAY!
* [15:04] Jack Abraham: RC regions?
* [15:04] Latif Khalifa: >1000 pending downlods :P
* [15:04] Oskar Linden: so let's get this part started
* [15:04] Oskar Linden: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Beta_Server_Office_Hours#Agenda
* [15:04] Oskar Linden: that is the agenda
* [15:04] Oskar Linden: item numero uno
* [15:04] Oskar Linden: 1.40
* [15:04] Oskar Linden: and all that jazz
* [15:04] Oskar Linden: so we obviously rolled back
* [15:04] CCS -: MTR - 1.0.1 - Beta Production RC6: Maldoror Bowman has detached their meter
* [15:05] Psi Merlin: Hi Oskar, Maestro, Monty and Simon
* [15:05] Oskar Linden: Saturday was not a fun day
* [15:05] Oskar Linden: I worked most of it with Lil
* [15:05] xstorm Radek: Oskar i have had a large number of bugs happen in the test sim Trendone all its temp rezzers have broken
* [15:05] ATechwolf Foxclaw: Why did it take soo long to rollback after discovery of repoducable inventory loss?
* [15:05] Oskar Linden: I was here until really late Friday night tracking down issues
* [15:05] Oskar Linden: it didn't AT, it just seemed that it did
* [15:05] xstorm Radek: sorry boss
* [15:05] XLR8RRICK Hudson: and Sat morning
* [15:06] Add On: Vektor Linden detected in this region
* [15:06] xstorm Radek: i hate to tell Falcon of the mess
* [15:06] Ilana Debevec: what's the forcast for 1.40.x
* [15:06] Oskar Linden: I know how things seem from the outside
* [15:06] Opensource Obscure: \o/ vektor
* [15:06] SHAMUS Carter: that was one quick roolback compertivly
* [15:06] Oskar Linden: comparatively it was
* [15:06] Oskar Linden: it's not an easy decision for us
* [15:06] Oskar Linden: it never is
* [15:07] xstorm Radek: hi Vektor
* [15:07] Latif Khalifa: vektor!
* [15:07] Oskar Linden: rollbacks are not a happy thing for the grid or residents
* [15:07] Oskar Linden: we had to make sure of what the results were
* [15:07] Vektor Linden: XStorm, Latif!! Hey!
* [15:07] Oskar Linden: we did the pilot on Tuesday
* [15:07] Oskar Linden: watched it for 2 days and didn't see any significant issues
* [15:07] Kitto Flora: Hi Vektor
* [15:07] Vektor Linden: Hey Kitto :)
* [15:07] Oskar Linden: we moved to the full grid
* [15:08] Oskar Linden: that was by eod Thursday
* [15:08] Oskar Linden: by Friday we were getting reports
* [15:08] Oskar Linden: we monitored the issues Friday, set some scripts up to run Friday night to get us usable data to make a case for rollback
* [15:08] Oskar Linden: then woke up early saturday morning to make the call
* [15:08] Yuu Nakamichi: Hi Vektor :)
* [15:08] Vektor Linden: Hi Yuu :)
* [15:09] Oskar Linden: we took the data we had and argued our case to the execs to get their approval for a rollback
* [15:09] Yuu Nakamichi: good to see you :)
* [15:09] xstorm Radek: well it has taken this long for the Temp Rezzers to die and stop working so may be it will take time for some bugs to show them self still ?
* [15:09] Vektor Linden: You too!
* [15:09] Oskar Linden: I'm not sure how we could have done it faster or more efficiently
* [15:09] Oskar Linden: but your opinions may vary
* [15:09] Jack Abraham: So how do we help you move forward with it, Oskar?
* [15:09] SHAMUS Carter: execs always twwiddle there thumbs
* [15:09] Oskar Linden: so lets' talk about getting 1.40 ready to ship again
* [15:09] Oskar Linden: maestro can you outline the blocking issues and the progress
* [15:10] Maestro Linden: sure,
* [15:10] Maestro Linden: so there are basically 2 types of blocking issues
* [15:10] Maestro Linden: 1) an inventory loss bug in which attachments are lost
* [15:10] xstorm Radek: Oskar may i ask if only some sims on agni gets the update of the server software to start with just to see how it takes ?
* [15:11] Oskar Linden: (( side note: I appreciate all your comments and notes, but can we keep the off topic chatter until after we get through the agenda tiems please? thanks ))
* [15:11] Maestro Linden: 2) physics throttling behavior that mostly people in combat sims were unhappy with (SVC-5727)
* [15:11] Issue Helper: Issue does not exist... try again, Maestro Linden
* [15:11] Gooden Uggla: 1- sounds like an awesome way to stop sim freezes :)
* [15:11] xstorm Radek: ok
* [15:11] Maestro Linden: the inventory loss bug has several duplicate SVC issues..
* [15:11] Simon Linden: xstorm - that's what the pilot rolls are
* [15:11] Rex Cronon: greeting
* [15:11] xstorm Radek: :-)
* [15:11] Rex Cronon: greetings:)
* [15:11] Monty Linden: SVC-5927
* [15:12] xstorm Radek: hi Rex
* [15:12] Issue Helper: [#SVC-5927
* http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/svc-5927
* [15:12] Maestro Linden: oops right,
* [15:12] Donlad Avro: how come nobody experienced the attachments loss bug in the beta grid? :S
* [15:12] xstorm Radek: i do not know
* [15:12] SHAMUS Carter: i never experanced it on angi
* [15:12] Zwagoth Klaar: I've experienced it here... hence... the avatar..
* [15:12] Oskar Linden: DOnald Avro: we don't have a reliable repro. it's a hard issue to narrow down.
* [15:12] Latif Khalifa: it takes a sim crash at a specific moment
* [15:12] Monty Linden: we also wonder, we believe there's a load factor involved
* [15:12] Rex Cronon: we had no combat sim running serrver 1.40:(
* [15:12] Rex Cronon: hi xstorm
* [15:12] XLR8RRICK Hudson: you had to crash to loose items worn
* [15:13] Moy Loon: Yeah, only happens when the sim dies
* [15:13] Zwagoth Klaar: It was not the resident crashing, its the sim going down or stalling.
* [15:13] xstorm Radek: i never had it happen even with all the crash i did
* [15:13] Latif Khalifa: well grey goo fence agressivness was known before the release, just deemed not important to fix
* [15:13] NeoBokrug Elytis: Do you think the attachment bug has to do with the "extra attachment" feature of some other viewers?
* [15:13] Donlad Avro: Yes and I also had no inventory problems on the AGNI grid when it was 1.40.2...but i never had a crash
* [15:13] XLR8RRICK Hudson: Sim Crash or Client Crash
* [15:13] Vektor Linden: The linden combat sandboxes are supposed to be on the pilot region list
* [15:13] Oskar Linden: they are
* [15:13] xstorm Radek: i had many sim crash never had any problem
* [15:13] Maestro Linden: Latif, we never had a repro for the grey goo fence issue. By all measurements, the grey goo fence is the same in 1.40 as it was in 1.38
* [15:13] Simon Linden: it needs you to do some changes to your attachments, then get the sim crash at the wrong time
* [15:14] xstorm Radek: so i can not repro it
* [15:14] XLR8RRICK Hudson: ty Simon
* [15:14] Jack Abraham: Could there be a viewer element to the crash? I know some parts of the mult-wearables project were depending on 1.40...
* [15:14] xstorm Radek: oh ok thank you Simon i will try that
* [15:14] Rex Cronon: if theyr, how come only he oatmeals run h7?
* [15:14] Oskar Linden: all 1.40 sims have h7
* [15:14] Latif Khalifa: Simons, sounds to me like wrong order of operations, don't nuke the asset id before you have a confirmed new one :)
* [15:14] Liisa Runo: could the grey goo fence thing be related to the tempRez queuing?
* [15:14] Peste Razor: hello everybody
* [15:14] Rex Cronon: interesting
* [15:15] Rex Cronon: hi
* [15:15] Talisien Llewellyn: Can someone link me to the Combat issue? I need to leave, but I will try to set up and repro on this grid when I get back.
* [15:15] Simon Linden: Latif - exactly, that's the timing window I know about
* [15:15] xstorm Radek: my Trendone sim has thats how i know about the Temp rezzers
* [15:15] Maestro Linden: Liisa, I doubt it. Because the tempRez queuing is quite reproducible, whereas the greygoo thing isn't
* [15:15] SHAMUS Carter: speaking of the asset losses are they recoverable the assets?
* [15:15] Donlad Avro: Oskar, perhaps if you or another Linden could be nearby and cause a sim to crash here on the ADITI grid and have other avatars on the region and once it comes back and they come back, see if they lost any attachments?
* [15:16] Moy Loon: I've lost attachments here on the betagrid when a sim went down
* [15:16] Zwagoth Klaar: It's been a week or two and they haven't recovered the assets lost. I suspect its one of those, out of luck, not worth the effort to recover situations.
* [15:16] xstorm Radek: :-S was i in that sim Moy ? if so sorry
* [15:16] IzzieBellah Hinterland: When I was in a sim freeze with 1.4, and continuted trying to move, my movements were qued, then after freeze I was shot across the room or out a building.
* [15:16] Oskar Linden: yeah, it's an issue for those residents and support. nothing I can do. :-(
* [15:17] Oskar Linden: 1.40 forty four zero
* [15:17] Oskar Linden: 40
* [15:17] Oskar Linden: there is no 1.4
* [15:17] Maestro Linden: 1.4 was in 2006 or something :)
* [15:17] Kitto Flora: wonders if thats a sim freeze, or the client freeze that he sees frequently.
* [15:17] Moy Loon: I think it's abit earler than 2006
* [15:17] IzzieBellah Hinterland: excuse the lazy typing
* [15:17] Donlad Avro: I sent in a ticket because of the recent Voice Island bug with buying voice morphing packs because I paid for 1 and it gave me an error, stole my lindens... and I Never got a reply and it's been nearly 4 days
* [15:17] Zwagoth Klaar: 2006? I though it was 2005 :D
* [15:17] SHAMUS Carter: party like it's 2006
* [15:17] Oskar Linden: yeah. that was an interesting one donald
* [15:17] Donlad Avro: So resident + support sucks
* [15:17] Donlad Avro: lmao
* [15:17] Oskar Linden: they have a plan to reimburse people though
* [15:18] Oskar Linden: for the voice morph packs at least
* [15:18] Oskar Linden: that was vivox changing their backend on us over the weekend
* [15:18] Latif Khalifa: vivox done a lot of noughty stuff lately :P
* [15:18] Oskar Linden: as soon as I noticed it I escalated it and they shut the voice regions down
* [15:18] ATechwolf Foxclaw: LL should charge vovix for all those refunds.
* [15:18] NeoBokrug Elytis: Meh, those should be free to premium users.
* [15:19] Monty Linden: Talisien: start with SVC-5927
* [15:19] Issue Helper: [#SVC-5927
* http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/svc-5927
* [15:19] Latif Khalifa: whoa 500+ votes
* [15:19] Holger Gilruth: i want this voting bot too
* [15:20] xstorm Radek: yes i do not know why it did not happen sooner on the rezzers i had
* [15:20] Oskar Linden: so what fixes do we have on here right now maestro?
* [15:20] Ima Mechanique: hi all, sorry for being late
* [15:20] Vektor Linden: Hey Ima :)
* [15:20] Maestro Linden: I'm not aware of any fixes for it yet, but it is quite reproducible and I bet Falcon will have something soon
* [15:20] Ima Mechanique: hiya Vektor
* [15:20] Ilana Debevec: Oskar, Maestro... can I make one suggestion/plea/idea/begging request... would it be feasable to have an intermidate release between 1.38.x and 1.40.x ... just back port the PRIM_NAME and PRIM_DESC code to llGetLinkPrimParams... we've been waiting weeks for that and it's holding a lot of people up... and (ok, I may not know what I'm talking about) that should be outside the problem areas
* [15:20] Rex Cronon: imagine u pay 3k L$ for a gun and suddenly it now loger works. wouldn't u vote on that jira?
* [15:20] Rex Cronon: hi
* [15:21] Maestro Linden: (to reproduce it, just cause a lot of physics lag in the region, then try to rez a new object - it will be 'phantom' and nonphysical until sim performance improves)
* [15:21] xstorm Radek: lol Rex lol
* [15:21] Ima Mechanique: could someone drop a note o me of the chat history I've missed, please?
* [15:21] Latif Khalifa: yeah it needs fixing for sure with that number of votes
* [15:21] Oskar Linden: no Ilana
* [15:21] Holger Gilruth: rex, i would stalk the creator but not search for a jira :)
* [15:21] xstorm Radek: odd thing is i have had no problems with guns
* [15:21] xstorm Radek: or bombs
* [15:22] Ima Mechanique: thanks Lares
* [15:22] Jack Abraham: If I were the creator I'd send customers a link to JIRA with their refund.
* [15:22] Lares Carter: you are welcome :)
* [15:22] Rex Cronon: the creator sold it in good faith. is not is fault the rules change over night:)
* [15:22] Monty Linden: I've noticed that, xstorm
* [15:22] Rex Cronon: not his/hers fault*
* [15:22] Kira Wolkenberg: Xstorm most didn't but in the rare sims you had 10+ people fighting they had issues with the rezzing
* [15:22] Oskar Linden: Falcon was going to work with me to set up a huge load test, but he's not in today
* [15:22] Kira Wolkenberg: bps count on those guns are huge so throttling was good but bad results in the end
* [15:23] xstorm Radek: oh ok we need more people then to test that
* [15:23] SHAMUS Carter: mortal combat on aditi with bots?
* [15:23] Maestro Linden: I don't think an intermediate release with only some of the 1.40 features is on the table, Ilana. It's probably faster to just fix these 2 big 1.40 bugs and release a new 1.40 version
* [15:23] Jack Abraham: Beta grid needs a physics hammer anyway.
* [15:23] Kitto Flora: One Av in a region with a few thousan prims is really not much of test.
* [15:23] Simon Linden: xstorm - I'd be curious about the sim fps when you're seeing problems. We're pretty sure the safeguards on physics overload are kicking in and delaying the rez until the sim recovers ... at least that's what I've heard from Falcon
* [15:23] Rex Cronon: on combat sims, u need some of the combat/attack huds used on main grid
* [15:23] Oskar Linden: right
* [15:24] xstorm Radek: ok
* [15:24] Holger Gilruth: at all i love to see that nobody can freez the sim with this physics specially crash it
* [15:24] ATechwolf Foxclaw: Come combat system only work on maingrid.
* [15:24] RINOBIT Footman: hi all
* [15:24] Oskar Linden: the idea was to get like 40 volunteers from the combat sims on agni to help do a load test
* [15:24] Rex Cronon: hi
* [15:24] Ilana Debevec: nods "Mastero I understand.. I just feel luck I was about to send out a few hundred updated products when the rollback started... 10 minute later and I would be crying on your shoulder"
* [15:24] Maldoror Bowman: CCS sims tend anyway to suffer lag spikes from the mono rezzing bug - I wonder if that then sets this second problem off
* [15:24] Kira Wolkenberg: Though too Oskar and the others of you, you have to take into account the metters updating like every 2 mins and then in combat every few seconds
* [15:25] xstorm Radek: ok we need the maker of that combat system to come to Aditi and test there system then
* [15:25] Kira Wolkenberg: this has made many places like DCS2 sims and CCS sims laggy just by being there... the rezz issue made it worse
* [15:25] Simon Linden: The safeguards with physics are only supposed to kick in when the sim is slow due to physics, but maybe someone put in the wrong check somewhere...
* [15:25] Latif Khalifa: xstorm, some combat systems don't work since aditi has some features disabled, like email and rpc
* [15:25] Maldoror Bowman: I understand Andrew Linden is setting up some tests in COLA right now
* [15:26] Moy Loon: What combat system in their right mind, would use email/rpc?
* [15:26] Latif Khalifa: those that keep scores
* [15:26] xstorm Radek: email can be turn off for the test
* [15:26] SHAMUS Carter: dcs?
* [15:26] Maldoror Bowman: CCS certainly doesnt
* [15:26] Monty Linden: Postal Chess Combat?
* [15:26] xstorm Radek: its not hard to do
* [15:26] Oskar Linden: pc2
* [15:26] Kira Wolkenberg: hum DCS2 doesn't from what I know of it
* [15:27] XLR8RRICK Hudson: DCS=Damage Control System
* [15:27] Latif Khalifa: i've seen some that have score boards and send stuff like rank to them
* [15:27] Kira Wolkenberg: Dynamic Combat system version 2 is the one I'm referring to if I recall it correctly
* [15:27] Oskar Linden: ok, well I think we can move on.
* [15:27] xstorm Radek: but you think they have a in world combat server to send it by IM
* [15:27] Oskar Linden: we do not know when we can ship 1.40 again yet
* [15:28] Oskar Linden: I'll keep all of you posted
* [15:28] XLR8RRICK Hudson: yes onward
* [15:28] Oskar Linden: I'll use the beta group and the email list to communicate to people if we need your help this weekend
* [15:28] Donlad Avro: whats this about 1.42 was being planned for august and yet nobody knows anything about it ? :S
* [15:28] Oskar Linden: or next week with some testing
* [15:28] Oskar Linden: we know about it Donlad
* [15:28] Oskar Linden: :-)
* [15:28] Oskar Linden: one server at a time man!
* [15:28] Oskar Linden: let's get 1.40 out first
* [15:29] SHAMUS Carter: oh but it's fun to multi task
* [15:29] Maldoror Bowman: Oskar might we be able to get a SIM on the beta grid enabled for DCS or CCS?
* [15:29] Donlad Avro: by anybody I mean non-Linden :P
* [15:29] Oskar Linden: so who tried llCastRay ?
* [15:29] Kira Wolkenberg: or both
* [15:29] Maestro Linden: raises his hand
* [15:29] Oskar Linden: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlCastRay
* [15:29] Kaluura Boa: raise had too
* [15:29] Oskar Linden: falcon tossed that out to a few sim last Friday
* [15:29] Zwagoth Klaar: Moy did :D
* [15:29] Moy Loon: Mmm
* [15:29] Oskar Linden: I know moy did :-D
* [15:29] Peste Razor: *coughs*
* [15:29] Kaluura Boa: raises hand too*
* [15:29] SHAMUS Carter: llcastray will be increadbly usefullt
* [15:29] Oskar Linden: thoughts overall?
* [15:29] Jack Abraham: I did.
* [15:29] Jack Abraham: Loving it.
* [15:30] Zwagoth Klaar: I think its a great idea. I hope it stays around.
* [15:30] Liisa Runo: Ray is fun but needs lil more tuning
* [15:30] Moy Loon: I think a few new things might be usefull :o
* [15:30] SHAMUS Carter: yes dont kill it
* [15:30] Rex Cronon: it seems sim crashes if end point is too high
* [15:30] Oskar Linden: it's not gonna be killed
* [15:30] Kaluura Boa: What is said on the wiki is good: It need to be limited on the number of results
* [15:30] Moy Loon: Like, what face it hits, and if possible, UV/ST face hit
* [15:30] Maestro Linden: oh, how high rex?
* [15:30] Liisa Runo: here is some pictures of the RayCam toy Kaluura built
* [15:30] Simon Linden: I think Falcon fixed that end-point problem already
* [15:30] Moy Loon: The normals being fixed on tri mesh shapes
* [15:30] Oskar Linden: once falcon is out of fixing 1.40 mode he can focus on new stuff
* [15:30] xstorm Radek: i say yest to castray i seen it used and even seen inworld cam made was great to see
* [15:30] Oskar Linden: he just wanted to toss that out to see what the thoughts were
* [15:30] Oskar Linden: it's not ready for production yet
* [15:30] Jack Abraham: Can't clone Falcon, Oskar?
* [15:31] NeoBokrug Elytis: Castray is the second best function ever.
* [15:31] Oskar Linden: not sure I'd want to clone falcon
* [15:31] SHAMUS Carter: and whats the first best?
* [15:31] Moy Loon: What's the best ever in your opinion Neo? setprimparamsfast?
* [15:31] Peste Razor: I don't even know what llCastRay is
* [15:31] NeoBokrug Elytis: llGetObjectDetails
* [15:31] Moy Loon: Ah
* [15:31] Oskar Linden: I'm not sure that 4 of his hands in the code would help
* [15:31] Kaluura Boa: llSPPF() is my favorite
* [15:31] xstorm Radek: Falcon has to much on his plate now
* [15:31] Rex Cronon: when z>256m
* [15:31] Peste Razor: is it on LSLwiki?
* [15:31] Maestro Linden: ah yeah rex, I found that bug too
* [15:32] Oskar Linden: I pasted the link
* [15:32] Oskar Linden: :-)
* [15:32] Oskar Linden: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlCastRay
* [15:32] Vektor Linden: Peste, it is here: 
* [15:32] Maestro Linden: he mixed up the y and z axes for his bounds checking...
* [15:32] Peste Razor: llSetPrimitiveParamsFast and llGetObjectDetail are the BEST
* [15:32] Peste Razor: thanks Vektor
* [15:32] xstorm Radek: LLEcho
* [15:32] Maestro Linden: so the maximum z value is 256m, but the maximum y value is 4096m ;)
* [15:32] Rex Cronon: now we can go 4024:)
* [15:32] Kaluura Boa: llCastRay should also be automatically clipped in order not to scream every the end is outside of the sim
* [15:32] xstorm Radek: brb
* [15:32] SHAMUS Carter: hehe /me has lagged over 90000y
* [15:32] Oskar Linden: there was llcastray discussion here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Talk:LlCastRay
* [15:32] Oskar Linden: make sure your voice is heard
* [15:33] Rex Cronon: some might want to know if it can go over 9000:)
* [15:33] NeoBokrug Elytis: Any thoughts on sim clamps or distance clamps being put into the function itself, and hitting objects outside of the sim?
* [15:33] Oskar Linden: I don't know Neo
* [15:33] Oskar Linden: you'll have to talk to falcon about that
* [15:33] NeoBokrug Elytis: Kay.
* [15:33] Oskar Linden: let me talk about the next agenda item
* [15:33] Oskar Linden: accounts and inv on aditi
* [15:34] SHAMUS Carter: eeps.
* [15:34] Oskar Linden: the current approach "ask oskar for transfers" doesn't work so well :-)
* [15:34] Moy Loon: I wrote a function in LSL, that'll work fine in C if converted I can give you guys
* [15:34] Moy Loon: It'll make it so much easier for regular generic people who don't know much
* [15:34] SHAMUS Carter: im oscarbot linden?
* [15:34] Oskar Linden: so I've been working with ambroff on some new ideas
* [15:34] Rex Cronon: r u using a bot oskar:)
* [15:34] Opensource Obscure: a customized login error when trying to login to Beta grid?
* [15:34] Opensource Obscure: error messsage*
* [15:35] Moy Loon: gave you clampcasttosim() 0.
* [15:35] Oskar Linden: the basic idea is to have a cron job running nightly that looks for new accounts on agni compared to aditi and updates aditi
* [15:35] Liisa Runo: Pay Oskar to be able to log in. Pay more to get your inv with you
* [15:35] Oskar Linden: also any account with an updated password hash would get copied over
* [15:35] Oskar Linden: all copies over would set the flag for inv transfers
* [15:36] Jack Abraham: So change password to get your inventory refreshed?
* [15:36] Oskar Linden: so basically you could just change your agni password, wait a day and have a new inv on ADITI
* [15:36] Oskar Linden: yeah
* [15:36] SHAMUS Carter: so back to the old pre 2009 aproch?
* [15:36] Rex Cronon: i have to change my pass to update inventory:(
* [15:36] NeoBokrug Elytis: Nice
* [15:36] Oskar Linden: kinda and not shamus
* [15:36] Peste Razor: I had to ask on Second Life website
* [15:36] Peste Razor: to change my one
* [15:37] Peste Razor: then I went Premium to thank Linden Lab
* [15:37] Peste Razor: :3
* [15:37] Latif Khalifa: Oskar, that would work, nicely done
* [15:37] Latif Khalifa: especially for the new users to get access to aditi
* [15:37] SHAMUS Carter: latter all
* [15:37] Rex Cronon: tc
* [15:37] Oskar Linden: I just wanted to get your thoughts on that
* [15:38] Oskar Linden: I'd love a simpler approach from a web interface
* [15:38] Latif Khalifa: Oskar, I like it
* [15:38] Rex Cronon: i have problem with that. i really don't want to change my pass that often
* [15:38] Oskar Linden: where people can update their aditi accounts by themself
* [15:38] Kaluura Boa: Me neither
* [15:38] Oskar Linden: but we;re nowhere near getting that to happen
* [15:38] Oskar Linden: this is a short term fix
* [15:38] Donlad Avro: My thoughts on that: why not make a button you can press inside of the account section on the SL website that tells the cronjob to move your inventory? :)
* [15:38] Moy Loon: I think the best method, is just bugging oskar to update your stuff for ya ;)
* [15:38] Rex Cronon: we all have wiki pages with our name. right?
* [15:38] Oskar Linden: yeah
* [15:38] Oskar Linden: no
* [15:38] Oskar Linden: not so much
* [15:38] Jack Abraham: As a short-term work-around, that works fine.
* [15:39] Latif Khalifa: yeah, a bit hacky, but better than waiting forever for some web interface
* [15:39] Holger Gilruth: i also change my password at least once a month for security
* [15:39] Oskar Linden: so yeah. that's that
* [15:39] Jack Abraham: Perhaps mid-term a widget somewhere in world, press the button, get your inventory update flag set?
* [15:39] Peste Razor: Yeah I do change mine often too
* [15:39] Donlad Avro: My thoughts on that: why not make a button you can press inside of the account section on the SL website that tells the cronjob to move your inventory? :)
* [15:39] Oskar Linden: let's chat about public beta testing and your roles again
* [15:39] Oskar Linden: I tried last week, but didn't get a lot of feedback
* [15:39] Rex Cronon: why not have an script server side that check is our wiki page contains a specific keyword, and if it does inventory is updated?
* [15:39] Oskar Linden: actually I gave people a homework assignment :-D
* [15:39] Oskar Linden: no one did it :-)
* [15:40] Peste Razor: I have to go to bed. Bye bye everybody
* [15:40] Peste Razor: thanks for everything
* [15:40] Oskar Linden: later peste
* [15:40] Latif Khalifa: dog ate my homework!
* [15:40] Opensource Obscure: ciao peste
* [15:40] Kaluura Boa: =^_^=
* [15:40] Rex Cronon: tc
* [15:40] Donlad Avro: A neko ate mine. :S
* [15:40] Jack Abraham: Inventory loss ate mine.
* [15:40] Oskar Linden: my questions are still the same for all of your
* [15:40] Oskar Linden: What would make things easier for you?
* What works?
* What doesn't?
* [15:40] Opensource Obscure: what was the assignment?
* [15:40] Oskar Linden: I asked people to answer those questions in a notecard to me
* [15:41] Kaluura Boa: To make things easier: Automatic update of inventory...
* [15:41] Lares Carter: i would like to have working again, Oskar.
* [15:41] Oskar Linden: ok
* [15:41] Kaluura Boa: Or a beta sandbox on Agni...
* [15:41] Oskar Linden: sorry Lares. it never will. I'm working on something new
* [15:41] Zwagoth Klaar: If there are going to be more people on aditi, its going to have to have clean out sims, or at least have return time on a majority of them. It's hard to find a sim where you can even rez, most are full with 15,000 prims
* [15:41] Donlad Avro: To make things easier: automatic nightly backups of all inventories in case an inventory bug happens :S
* [15:41] Donlad Avro: lol
* [15:41] Moy Loon: lol, I got my internal 404 error
* [15:41] Oskar Linden: 99k.org nuked my account
* [15:41] Oskar Linden: Donlad, it won't help
* [15:41] Moundsa Mayo: OOPs. I sent one answer in the form of a question and in IM, too. Did I flunk?
* [15:42] Oskar Linden: and that's not a beta testing issue
* [15:42] Moy Loon: And I agree with zwag
* [15:42] Moy Loon: We need more aditi sandbox wipes
* [15:42] Lares Carter: hmm okay, looking forward to see the new stuff you are coming up with then.
* [15:42] Opensource Obscure: (( Reminder: you can rez in most of LOL region. Please clean up later ))
* [15:42] Moy Loon: 20min autoreturn everywhere!
* [15:42] Jack Abraham: Yes to more sandbox wipes.
* [15:42] Kaluura Boa: And what doesn't work is when ppl-I-won't-name disable the scripts and forget to re-enable them
* [15:42] Oskar Linden: managing all the aditi sims is very time consuming
* [15:43] Oskar Linden: I'll think about a solution zwag
* [15:43] Moy Loon: Give me admin then, and I'll do it =p
* [15:43] Kitto Flora: Oscar, are you asking what would make testing easier, with the idea that you would then get more tested?
* [15:43] Liisa Runo: autoreturn is the most important land setting, why not in this grid too?
* [15:43] Oskar Linden: with the idea that I would make things easier for you
* [15:43] Oskar Linden: then yes, easier for you means you can test more things more easily
* [15:43] Moundsa Mayo: Well, sorta - access is not sufficient - like I can't test in Oatmeal 6 with a Physics Time of 45+ms/frame, and that's where the track is laid. - Need a long run crossing region boundaries to test ...
* [15:44] Donlad Avro: if managing another grid is so much more work, why not just move t his grid into a mini-landmass in AGNI and keep the regions on the beta code?
* [15:44] Kitto Flora: Oscar I think you are searching down the wrong road
* [15:44] Oskar Linden: I am?
* [15:44] IzzieBellah Hinterland: Teleport between grids would be easier
* [15:44] Zwagoth Klaar: 20minutes seems harsh, I'd say 3-6 hours or whatever, unless its something like physics sandbox, those maybe can have a lower time, but really they do need some form of auto-return or they arn't usable.
* [15:44] Oskar Linden: so we have a new plan we are working on implementing
* [15:44] Moundsa Mayo: Auto return would be very inefficent when some semi-permanent infrastructure is needed for testing.
* [15:45] Oskar Linden: and that plan would allow for a beta channel on AGNI
* [15:45] Oskar Linden: with the idea that estate managers could choose to be on the stable release or the beta release
* [15:45] Kitto Flora: I think that the #1 cause of lack of testing/discovery of bugs is that the known end result is that all sorts of jiras will be created, but the bugs often dont get fixed. Why put in the hours of work for no useful result?
* [15:45] Jack Abraham: Moundsa, set semi-permanent infrastructure to the Beta group, and make it the land group.
* [15:45] Oskar Linden: kind of like a perpetual pilot roll
* [15:45] Rex Cronon: i don't get something. if all sims here use 1.40 and havok7 why we need to got oatmeal to test things?
* [15:45] Oskar Linden: you don't rex
* [15:45] Maldoror Bowman: A beta channel on agni would make it a lot easier to dragoon a bunch of users in for stress testing
* [15:46] Oskar Linden: it's jus tthat the oatmeals are very accessible and like a big sandbox
* [15:46] Donlad Avro: thats a great idea oskar
* [15:46] Opensource Obscure: "Second Life Stable / Second Life Unstable". mmm
* [15:46] Oskar Linden: so we're still in the planning stages on it, and there is a some groundwork to be done first
* [15:46] Oskar Linden: but it is the direction we are heading
* [15:46] Donlad Avro: Yeah but even Stable sometimes isnt stable :S lol
* [15:46] Oskar Linden: and I like it
* [15:46] NeoBokrug Elytis: I dunno about that Oskar, what if there's an expliot that allows people to bring said explioted items back to the normal grid?
* [15:46] Opensource Obscure: ( Unstable / Unstabler ?)
* [15:46] Oskar Linden: fine. be picky
* [15:46] Oskar Linden: let's say 1.38.6 vs 1.40.3
* [15:46] XLR8RRICK Hudson: lol
* [15:46] NeoBokrug Elytis: For instance, some sor of L$ perms thing. :)
* [15:47] Monty Linden: kitto: yeah, the lack of response can be demotivating. We experience it too...
* [15:47] Oskar Linden: and 1.40.3 would be on agni right now available for any estate manager that wanted to start their sim up with it
* [15:47] Opensource Obscure: Great! I think the testing would improve a lot that way
* [15:47] Oskar Linden: I don't think aditi would go away
* [15:47] Opensource Obscure: much more real use
* [15:47] Jack Abraham: Oskar, I know it's early, but how easily would you let sims switch channels?
* [15:47] Oskar Linden: it would be nice to have future stuff on special sims
* [15:47] Oskar Linden: like the llcastray thing
* [15:48] Oskar Linden: we don't know Jack
* [15:48] xstorm Radek: lol
* [15:48] Jack Abraham: Fair enough.
* [15:48] Donlad Avro: It would be easier for content creators to play with
* [15:48] Donlad Avro: if they could go to beta regions on the AGNI grid
* [15:48] Opensource Obscure: Donlad+
* [15:48] Moy Loon: You still need to clone my sim over with the new castray stuff ;)
* [15:48] Latif Khalifa: it can be a bit problematic with scripts crashing when you move to "stable" sim...
* [15:48] Oskar Linden: so yeah. that's what we've been discussing
* [15:49] Jack Abraham: Best use for me we be to go unstable for a few hours while developing, and then go back to stable.
* [15:49] Oskar Linden: we can open up the rest of the meeting to whatever you want
* [15:49] XLR8RRICK Hudson: +Oskar+
* [15:49] xstorm Radek: Aditi is never going away so come and please test what ever you can and please get others to come and test it will help every one if you do
* [15:49] Gooden Uggla: oskar you'd have to have a rollback button for that, in case of bad bugs
* [15:49] Gooden Uggla: and that opens a lot of other problems
* [15:49] Oskar Linden: the rollback button would be in the estate managers hands
* [15:50] xstorm Radek: oh i like that Oskar :-)
* [15:50] Gooden Uggla: i know some pretty sleazy estate owners, you sure about that?
* [15:50] NeoBokrug Elytis: That would open up tons of abuse Oskar
* [15:50] IzzieBellah Hinterland: how would those estate managers feel about random people coming in and doing whatever they want on their land?
* [15:50] NeoBokrug Elytis: Lots of people duplicate content by asking for a rollback
* [15:50] Oskar Linden: well all we have to do is close the channel
* [15:50] Vektor Linden: gtg, take care folks :)
* [15:50] Oskar Linden: it's that easy
* [15:50] Rex Cronon: tc
* [15:51] Oskar Linden: if there is some content theft exploiting bug in the beta channel we close it
* [15:51] Zwagoth Klaar: Take care Vektor.
* [15:51] XLR8RRICK Hudson: BB Vektor
* [15:51] Jack Abraham: Perhaps just get Concierge Support informed that there may need to be more relaxed rollback guidelines for unstable sims.
* [15:51] xstorm Radek: but Oskar can some thing be put in place for the mainland renters that rent a full mainland sim to have the sim restarted by the sim renter ?
* [15:51] Psi Merlin: Bye Vektor - good to see you.
* [15:51] Gooden Uggla: as long as copying content isn't possible, and it can be *undone*, it's a good idea
* [15:51] Latif Khalifa: Jack, didn't you hear, there is no such thing as Concierge Support anymore ;)
* [15:51] Oskar Linden: I don't think there is a plan for that xstorm
* [15:52] xstorm Radek: well as you know the Ontyne can not help mainland sim owners any more Oskar
* [15:52] Gooden Uggla: concierge support is in patch's hands now, jack is disawowing he ever headed that up
* [15:52] xstorm Radek: i have been told by the Ontyne they can not help me
* [15:52] Gooden Uggla: 2 day waits for sim transfers are common now
* [15:52] IzzieBellah Hinterland: I don't know who would rent for whatever reason on an unstalbe grid with the risks of bugs eating up thier work/inventory.
* [15:52] Gooden Uggla: 12 days*
* [15:53] xstorm Radek: Leo Linden was the person helping us all the time
* [15:53] Gooden Uggla: i believe leo is still there, and spike
* [15:54] Gooden Uggla: and a buncha guys from pakistan that just got hired :)
* [15:54] xstorm Radek: oh poor spike i do not think i best ask him lol
* [15:54] Liisa Runo: Oskar. Can we get lil mountain and some water to Oatmeal 13? For ray testing. it is the only ray sim with scripts enabled.
* [15:54] xstorm Radek: 'i moved spikes stuff out of his office one time on him
* [15:55] Jack Abraham: I'd take the risk with my home sim, but only if I can revert back for normal use.
* [15:55] Psi Merlin: Maybe the agni beta channel should require some sort of EM signup before it's enabled for a region - Gives some control over it's use and 'could ' help provide a facility for selected mainland regions.
* [15:55] Oskar Linden: the llcastray thing was really just for a temporary time
* [15:55] Oskar Linden: but I'll hop over and see about turning scripts on
* [15:55] Kaluura Boa: Niiiiice!
* [15:56] Liisa Runo: or if no more scripts, then add a lil mountain and water to the one that has scripts
* [15:56] xstorm Radek: Oskar please put 1.4x server ver on Trendone Agni i will work on the broken scrips
* [15:56] Gooden Uggla: the problem with a beta channel is that a lot of regions have multiple tenents, and to spring "test mode" on them would be a bit unethical
* [15:56] xstorm Radek: just call me crazy lol
* [15:56] Oskar Linden: it is xstorm
* [15:56] Oskar Linden: and has been
* [15:57] Jack Abraham: That'd be up to the estate owner to work out, I'd think, Gooden.
* [15:57] xstorm Radek: on Agni server ?
* [15:57] Jack Abraham: Just like joining the pilot roll.
* [15:57] Gooden Uggla: yes, but i'd expect adoption to be low
* [15:57] Jack Abraham: What I'd really hope for is some Linden sandboxes on the unstable channel.
* [15:57] Oskar Linden: I think that would be a given
* [15:58] Gooden Uggla: i still don't understand why pilot rolls were sghortened to 2 days, that seems like a large part of the testing gone right there
* [15:58] Oskar Linden: it depends
* [15:58] Gooden Uggla: pilots were a week, and caught all kinds of things
* [15:58] Simon Linden: I have to run ... thanks everyone for coming and all the good ideas
* [15:58] xstorm Radek: oh i love to see them put a LL Sandbox back in olive like it was back in 2003 :-)
* [15:58] Oskar Linden: there are a lot of things to factor
* [15:58] Rex Cronon: tc
* [15:58] Jack Abraham: Later Simon.
* [15:58] Moundsa Mayo: Thansk, Simon!
* [15:58] Oskar Linden: putting 20% of the grid on a new version for 2 days is a pretty quick way to suss out issues
* [15:59] xstorm Radek: thank you Simon :-)
* [15:59] XLR8RRICK Hudson: but it took 3 days to find trouble
* [15:59] Donlad Avro: but it wasn't enough time this last roll Oskar
* [15:59] Gooden Uggla: did it find the issues you just rolled back?
* [15:59] Psi Merlin: I'd normally be up for agni testing - I don't have renters or vendors to worry about.
* [15:59] NeoBokrug Elytis: I imagine it only takes a few hours for things to start popping up. :)
* [15:59] Gooden Uggla: pilots should go back to a week
* [15:59] Oskar Linden: no it didn't
* [15:59] Maestro Linden: alright guys, i gotta run too
* [15:59] Oskar Linden: would a week have helped?
* [15:59] Oskar Linden: at 20%
* [15:59] Rex Cronon: tc
* [15:59] Oskar Linden: apparently you think it would
* [15:59] Oskar Linden: and I'm not sure how you could know
* [16:00] Jack Abraham: I tend to agree with Gooden here... I was on the pilot roll, but onle managed about an hour in world during the 2-day pilot.
* [16:00] Gooden Uggla: being in a hurry is nice for the blog, but constantly rolling things back is demoralizing
* [16:00] XLR8RRICK Hudson: I think you need a Fast way to report trouble.
* [16:00] XLR8RRICK Hudson: and not by JIRA
* [16:00] Liisa Runo: or someone to clean jira so it will be usefull again
* [16:01] xstorm Radek: i hope there are not people making up fake reports on some things i have seen that done in the past
* [16:01] Moundsa Mayo: No, xstorm, that one today is REAL! I even asked another to come witness first!
* [16:01] Moundsa Mayo: B^)
* [16:01] xstorm Radek: no not just yours :-)
* [16:02] Gooden Uggla: my home sim has 2 active clubs and some stores and games, i don't mind it beoinig a pilot, but i test in aditi (like everyone here) to make sure our stuff doesn't get broken
* [16:02] Oskar Linden: well without any mor econstructive criticism I'll close this meeting
* [16:02] Moundsa Mayo: Just? B^D
* [16:02] Gooden Uggla: i would think that would find bugs, but it doesn't
* [16:02] xstorm Radek: thank you Oskar :-)
* [16:02] Ima Mechanique: thanks Oskar
* [16:02] Oskar Linden: Gooden, I'm sorry we didn't get things right this time
* [16:02] Jack Abraham: Thanks, Oskar, for all you do. Even though we pick on you for it.
* [16:02] Moundsa Mayo: Thanks Oskar, Monty!
* [16:02] Oskar Linden: I am
* [16:02] xstorm Radek: pokes Kitto
* [16:02] Gooden Uggla: i'm not bagging on you, honest
* [16:02] XLR8RRICK Hudson: Ok Good turn out for this.
* [16:02] Oskar Linden: it's fine
* [16:03] Donlad Avro: Shit happens and we all know it
* [16:03] Gooden Uggla: i just think 2 days isn't long enough for pilot rolls
* [16:03] xstorm Radek: no we need a lot more people then this
* [16:03] Jack Abraham: We just want to help.
* [16:03] Lares Carter: Thanks for your time Oskar. :)
* [16:03] Oskar Linden: ok
* [16:03] Oskar Linden: thanks everyone
* [16:03] XLR8RRICK Hudson: BB all
* [16:03] Monty Linden: 'nght
* [16:03] Gooden Uggla: have a good evening oskar
* [16:03] Donlad Avro: Oskar you being here actually listening to our opinions is a lot more than I can say for other Lindens :)
* [16:03] xstorm Radek: to do the gun test i like to see 50 people in a sim
* [16:03] Rex Cronon: going to main. tc everybody
* [16:03] XLR8RRICK Hudson: Going to miss my Mentor Title ( Again)
* [16:03] xstorm Radek: laterz Rex
* [16:04] Moundsa Mayo: Holler when you want to test, xstorm - you can shoot at me if it helps fix SL!
* [16:05] xstorm Radek: lol
* [16:05] xstorm Radek: well hold on
* [16:05] Moundsa Mayo: TY!