User Experience Interest Group/Transcripts/2009-03-12

== Topic & Summary ==
User Experience Interest Group Discussion for March 12, 2009.
Topic: Miscellaneous.
Our scheduled topic, User-Object Interaction, has been postponed to next week.
Malbers Linden dropped by to briefly discuss Linden Lab's recent announcement about adult content policy changes. He said that he has been involved in the Resident Experience issues / UI changes related to the new policy recently. He encourage Residents to use the forums to discuss and express our thoughts about the new policy.
After Malber's piece, we discussed some UI issues (although the recent news kept popping up from time to time).
We discussed the frustrating scrolling behavior of the Chat/IM windows, which automatically scroll down to the bottom of the chat when they receive focus. This is disruptive if the user had purposely scrolled up to find some past chat, for example. But, it may prevent users from thinking that all chat had stopped, since the window no longer displayed the new chat. There were several ideas for addressing the issue:
* Allow the user to split the text window vertically, and the bottom half would continue scrolling to display new text, while the top half could be used to scroll up and view past chat.
* Change the color of the scroll bar background when there is new chat/IM text to display.
* Make the tab blink when new text arrives, if you aren't focused/scrolled down on that tab.
* Alternatively, make the down arrow on the scroll bar blink or change color/size.
We briefly discussed the need for a set of UI design guidelines for the viewer, so that the UI could be made coherent and consistent.
The discussion drifted to other topics for a while, especially the new adult content policy and its implications, and to office hours and the Rx Lindens' lack of involvement at office hours.
The discussion was briefly disturbed by a chat and particle spamming griefer object. This led to the idea that object names in chat should be clickable, and give options such as "Mute", "Report Abuse", "View Owner Profile", etc. Other tools for dealing with griefers would also be useful.
We also discussed ideas about object radar / scanners, to help find objects within a sim. This would help with finding lost objects, especially small objects (e.g. jewelry).
=== Links ===
* Linden Lab's announcement about adult content policy changes
* Metanomics discussion about policy changes
* : Mature avatars may be moved to PG telehubs on login, due to last region unavaliable
* McCabe's thoughts on user interface design guidelines
* Imprudence forum thread with Geneko's pie menu concepts
== Transcript ==
[15:06]	Malbers Linden: 	just came to talk for a few minutes (once we're ready)
[15:06]	McCabe Maxsted: 	take that, Franklin!
[15:06]	McCabe Maxsted: 	oh hey malbers!
[15:06]	Malbers Linden: 	hey mccabe
[15:06]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Oh c'mon Melbers, you know you wanna stay...
[15:07]	Daniel Voyager: 	Hey Malbers. :)
[15:07]	Charlette Proto: 	I always check the timezone czanges, loved too many people and had been confused too many times
[15:07]	McCabe Maxsted: 	yeees, give iiiiiin to the UI side of the force!
[15:07]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Alright, let's start. Malbers, take it away :)
[15:07]	Malbers Linden: 	ah, alright
[15:07]	Malbers Linden: 	I know that a lot of you keep close track of all things SL related
[15:08]	Malbers Linden: 	so i suspect you've seen todays announcement
[15:08]	Charlette Proto: 	you mean LL related
[15:08]	Geneko Nemeth: 	LL is SL.
[15:08]	McCabe Maxsted: 	yup
[15:08]	Nicholas Hawthorne: 	lol
[15:08]	Charlette Proto: 	or is it LR now hehe
[15:08]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Okay, maybe not.
[15:08]	Jacek Antonelli: 	(Announcement: http://blogs.secondlife.com/community/community/blog/2009/03/12/upcoming-changes-for-adult-content)
[15:08]	Morgaine Dinova: 	About discrimination against adults with basic accounts. Yep, seen it.
[15:08]	Malbers Linden: 	so, since I'm the LL Rx Land Dude, I've been working on the Adult-Oriented stuff
[15:09]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Eww.
[15:09]	McCabe Maxsted: 	you're not shipping us off, are you? *puppy dog eyes*
[15:09]	Daniel Voyager: 	Here is the transcript from the Metanomics Community Forum: http://metanomics.net/Chat031109Forum
[15:09]	Nicholas Hawthorne: 	LOL
[15:09]	Geneko Nemeth: 	That's quite unfortunate. :<
[15:09]	Malbers Linden: 	I didn't really come to say a lot about it except to say that you should use the forums
[15:09]	Charlette Proto: 	what about my poseballs owned by alts (Charlette) hehe
[15:09]	Malbers Linden: 	it's just more effective for everyone to have one channel for discussion
[15:10]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hehe *nods*
[15:10]	Daniel Voyager: 	http://metanomics.net/Chat031109Forum
[15:10]	Nicholas Hawthorne needs to start reading the forums :) 	Nicholas Hawthorne needs to start reading the forums :)
[15:10]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I used the SL forums for 3 years, and SL never did anything that the forums agreed on. This will be different?
[15:11]	Nicholas Hawthorne: 	well was this idea originally on the forums?
[15:11]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I'm a bit worried about this.
[15:11]	Charlette Proto: 	the Mentors are up in arms about having to police this
[15:11]	Malbers Linden: 	I wanted to come say this just so you know I'm not avoiding t alking about it except that I don't want to accidentally spread different opinions than what are in the foums
[15:11]	McCabe Maxsted: 	really, I don't think we'd gain anything out of talking about it here unless we get to pick the new adult-only icons XD I vote for ballgag
[15:11]	Jacek Antonelli: 	lol McCabe
[15:11]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Talking about the SL forums, Philip Linden gave an explicit statement on the Ask Linden forum, that no segment of SL community would ever coerce another to its views. So how come that now the PG fraternity is going to coerce the adult community to their worldview?
[15:12]	Daniel Voyager: 	Check out the SL News Feeds page I managed to put together: http://www.netvibes.com/danielvoyager#SL_News
[15:12]	Malbers Linden: 	I will be interested in opinions about the UI changes for these upcoming features
[15:12]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Are there details about the UI changes, Malbers?
[15:12]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Red Light District!
[15:12]	Malbers Linden: 	there are so many use cases that everyone knows we can't catch them all
[15:13]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Put red light ban lines around mature regions for underage citze^H^H^H^H^Hresidents.
[15:13]	Morgaine Dinova: 	So why try to impose federal government? Leave the world alone
[15:13]	Malbers Linden: 	no, there are no details about the UI changes out yet
[15:13]	Charlette Proto: 	what about mature content in profiles (eg hidden tab)
[15:13]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Well, among other things this could make it easier to merge Teen and rest of Agni.
[15:13]	McCabe Maxsted: 	nice site daniel
[15:13]	Morgaine Dinova: 	It's shaping up to be "Your world, our puritan imagination".
[15:13]	Daniel Voyager: 	thanks, McCabe! :)
[15:14]	Malbers Linden: 	as I mentioned, it's not useful for me to comment on the policies here. The forums are the place for that
[15:14]	Charlette Proto: 	I thought Bush was dead now
[15:14]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Although I can't help but thinking segerating the "Red Light District" may make the that part of SL go quite wary...
[15:14]	Daniel Voyager: 	lol
[15:14]	Nicholas Hawthorne: 	lol
[15:14]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, thanks Malbers. Good to hear from you
[15:14]	McCabe Maxsted hopes you can at least comment on some UX stuff. We've missed having you guys here to banter with 	McCabe Maxsted hopes you can at least comment on some UX stuff. We've missed having you guys here to banter with
[15:14]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Yeah, but the forum is aawkaward. When are the web Lindens going to upgrade it...
[15:14]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Yeah~
[15:15]	Malbers Linden: 	well, this is why I haven't had anything to show here in a while
[15:15]	McCabe Maxsted: 	ahhhhhhhh
[15:15]	Geneko Nemeth: 	You could always come and watch; we had interesting talks here.
[15:15]	Morgaine Dinova: 	BBcode was disabled in the forums 3 years ago "briefly, while we sort out a problem". And it's still disabled, no nice links.
[15:15]	Daniel Voyager: 	Metanomics Community Forum: Linden Lab Adult Content Changes: http://metanomics.net/Chat031109Forum
[15:15]	Geneko Nemeth: 	No avatars either...
[15:15]	Malbers Linden: 	definitely. I try to come when I have time and the topic is of particualr interest
[15:15]	McCabe Maxsted: 	all those cones of silence just suddenly clicked! That would make sense then
[15:16]	Nicholas Hawthorne: 	hehe
[15:16]	Nicholas Hawthorne: 	little cloud
[15:16]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Hey~
[15:16]	Malbers Linden: 	I have a soft spot for A11Y concerns so I came to that office hours
[15:16]	Charlette Proto: 	are clouds PG?
[15:17]	Nicholas Hawthorne: 	lol
[15:17]	Charlette Proto: 	what is a naked dude is lurking behind it
[15:17]	Nicholas Hawthorne: 	why wouldn't they not be?
[15:17]	Geneko Nemeth: 	No tits/bits -> should be okay.
[15:17]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Are naked blue kitties PG?
[15:17]	Aimee Trescothick: 	depends if it's a naked cloud
[15:17]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Pfft
[15:17]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Are naked little raccons PG?
[15:17]	Nicholas Hawthorne: 	um it's just a cloud
[15:17]	McCabe Maxsted: 	I'm hoping now that it's an open policy you're free to talk about what's been going on with other things, yeah?
[15:17]	Charlette Proto: 	racoons must be OK genitals are too small to rez
[15:17]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Hey!
[15:18]	Nicholas Hawthorne: 	hehe
[15:18]	Charlette Proto: 	OK so what about mature content in profiles (eg hidden tab)
[15:18]	Charlette Proto: 	in addition to people and places in separate tabs
[15:19]	Charlette Proto: 	perhaps 4 all up, so the floater needs to be resizable
[15:19]	Nicholas Hawthorne: 	you mean a new tab saying like "mature"
[15:19]	Charlette Proto: 	yes
[15:19]	Charlette Proto: 	profiles in welcome areas need to be PG
[15:19]	Malbers Linden: 	Charlotte, I'm not sure that I have the current answer so I'm going to try NOT to introduce possibly incorrect info here
[15:19]	Charlette Proto: 	so that tab could be hidden in PG areas
[15:19]	Nicholas Hawthorne: 	problem iwth that is everyone can look at it, and it could be a person who is a teen here in MG
[15:20]	Nicholas Hawthorne: 	with*
[15:20]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Maybe just something like "this profile contains mature content",and then Teen Residents would see nothing but "this tab contains mature contant".
[15:20]	Charlette Proto: 	surely if we will be legally Mature we have a right to mature profiles
[15:20]	Morgaine Dinova: 	The whole thing is just theater, because none of it is controllable.
[15:20]	Armin Weatherwax: 	what about being tped to a "nearby" region when not dressed pg compatible ?
[15:21]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe the tab that kids click first - hidding mature tabs in PG wiuld be better and is a UI issue
[15:21]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Armin, that issue has been tracked by Lindens internally.
[15:21]	Morgaine Dinova: 	And the worst part of it is that Basic account users are treated as kids.
[15:21]	McCabe Maxsted has been following the notification changes, but I haven't compiled them yet. Are there any serverside changes ? Or can they be tinkered with now? I've been rather curious what the scope is of them right now (heck, curious about a lot of things; I don't suppose you read the transcript from last week's meeting?)	McCabe Maxsted has been following the notification changes, but I haven't compiled them yet. Are there any serverside changes ? Or can they be tinkered with now? I've been rather curious what the scope is of them right now (heck, curious about a lot of things; I don't suppose you read the transcript from last week's meeting?)
[15:21]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Morgaine++
[15:22]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Armin: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1459
[15:22]	Malbers Linden: 	hhmmmm -- notifications. I think it is almost all server-side. None of the UI changes we've discussed here.
[15:22]	Geneko Nemeth: 	D'aww~
[15:22]	Charlette Proto: 	I may need to have 2 accounts cause I'm not exposing my primary to griefers
[15:22]	Malbers Linden: 	actually, there are likely client changes but nothing like a big UI overhaul
[15:22]	Nicholas Hawthorne: 	lol it's D'oh
[15:22]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Any codes that can be forked and used say, in Imprudence?
[15:22]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Backend ones?
[15:22]	McCabe Maxsted: 	ah, okay, I guess I'll leave that alone then. Yeah, I saw the combination into the new notifications.xml
[15:23]	Nicholas Hawthorne loves the simpsons 	Nicholas Hawthorne loves the simpsons
[15:23]	Geneko Nemeth: 	D'aww = D'oh + awwwww....
[15:24]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Well I will be changing to Basic because LL kills off Premium members if there's an account problem, so Premium accounts are much worse than Basic.
[15:24]	Malbers Linden: 	So, sorry to derail your planned topic but I thought I'd come and say that bit about Adult-Oriented
[15:24]	Nicholas Hawthorne: 	lol
[15:24]	McCabe Maxsted: 	aw
[15:24]	McCabe Maxsted: 	well, to be honest, I'd figured we'd never be seeing you again except as an alt
[15:24]	McCabe Maxsted: 	considering the lack of linden support for this office hour etc
[15:24]	Malbers Linden: 	and then how would you know I was here?
[15:24]	McCabe Maxsted: 	so it's a pleasant surprise
[15:24]	McCabe Maxsted: 	aw, you've got a tentacled aura
[15:25]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehehe
[15:25]	Malbers Linden: 	ah, of course. always gives me away!
[15:25]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hehehe
[15:25]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Thanks for dropping in, Malbers. Come by any time :)
[15:25]	McCabe Maxsted is really eager to talk about some UI stuff though. I've got my compiler open! I'm chomping at the bit for some good topics :D 	McCabe Maxsted is really eager to talk about some UI stuff though. I've got my compiler open! I'm chomping at the bit for some good topics :D
[15:26]	Geneko Nemeth is still reluctant to hack on the viewer. 	Geneko Nemeth is still reluctant to hack on the viewer.
[15:26]	Morgaine Dinova: 	McCabe, I've got one for you
[15:26]	Nicholas Hawthorne(Draconian): 	kasceos ez zo nn
[15:26]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Stop the reset when you click on an IM window, it's infuriating :-)
[15:27]	Geneko Nemeth: 	You know substituion cyphers are weak to frequency analysi]s....
[15:27]	McCabe Maxsted: 	aw, geneko, it's *so much nicer* with cmake. I think everyone here should try it at least once (if nothing else to appreciate how much work goes into some changes) :)
[15:27]	Charlette Proto: 	is the reference to(Cool Second Life™ Viewer) a clue to what is happening
[15:27]	McCabe Maxsted: 	you mean the autoscroll?
[15:27]	Geneko Nemeth: 	It's mainly because my irrational fear of OpenSim's attutide to GPL.
[15:27]	Geneko Nemeth: 	(Actually, I'm just lazy.)
[15:28]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hahaha
[15:28]	Morgaine Dinova: 	There isn't another application in existence where you scroll window A up, switch focus to window B, and then on switching focus back to A you lose your scroll position.
[15:28]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Terrible UI "feature"
[15:28]	McCabe Maxsted pokes you with sticks. Translate more then :P 	McCabe Maxsted pokes you with sticks. Translate more then :P
[15:29]	Geneko Nemeth: 	But then I have WikiFur to edit...
[15:29]	Charlette Proto: 	I thought that when I raised the scroll irregularities in chat history everyone else was happy with the way it worked
[15:29]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hm, you know I wonder what the original reason was for doing it that way, when you put it like that
[15:30]	Charlette Proto: 	chat scroll certainy doesn't behave like I'd expect
[15:30]	Aimee Trescothick: 	people tend to forget, or not notice they've scrolled up a bit by accident
[15:30]	McCabe Maxsted: 	I almost suspect it was a lag issue; that's the only time I've really found the autoscroll setting useful: trying to scroll down takes too long
[15:30]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Can't imagine there's reason for it --- prolly just fell out in the wash of some dev's fingers.
[15:30]	Aimee Trescothick: 	it was turned off for a while and it drove people mad as they'd sit there thinking things had gone quiet
[15:31]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hrmm.
[15:31]	Geneko Nemeth thinks bubble chat shouldn't turn off chat console 	Geneko Nemeth thinks bubble chat shouldn't turn off chat console
[15:31]	Geneko Nemeth: 	well, there he goes...
[15:31]	Aimee Trescothick: 	what it needs is a clear indication that there's fresh stuff you can't see
[15:31]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Well just light some indicator up to show that there's new text if you're scrolled up
[15:31]	Nicholas Hawthorne: 	there goes daniel as well
[15:31]	Nicholas Hawthorne: 	lol
[15:31]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Aimee++
[15:31]	Aimee Trescothick: 	or splittable scroll areas
[15:32]	McCabe Maxsted: 	aw, running off together *looks into the sunset for 'em*
[15:32]	Charlette Proto: 	should only scroll when you point into the input text box but it seems to disregard your prewious selections like morgaine descibed it
[15:32]	Aimee Trescothick: 	so that you can split it and scroll up the top half while still seeing new stuff in the bottom half
[15:32]	McCabe Maxsted: 	aimee: what do you think about changing the scrollbar backfround color?
[15:32]	McCabe Maxsted: 	like, oragne if you're receiving new IMs
[15:33]	Aimee Trescothick: 	hmm, maybe, just ... people are dumb ;)
[15:33]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Maybe something at the bottom line saying "3 messeages"
[15:33]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hrmm. What about making the Local Chat tab blink, like IM windows do when you receive new stuff?
[15:33]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Also, I still can't get it to stay locked to the bottom every time even in RC2. Definitely something odd there.
[15:33]	Charlette Proto: 	good idea (or somethis similar) cause hidden tabs are common
[15:34]	Charlette Proto: 	Nicholas likes Simpsons
[15:34]	Nicholas Hawthorne: 	lol
[15:34]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hm, if it blinked how would you know what tab you're on?
[15:34]	Geneko Nemeth: 	It flashes already when not focused.
[15:34]	Charlette Proto: 	agree with morgaine
[15:34]	Charlette Proto: 	more that lag that is
[15:34]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Or have the down scroll arrow blink, perhaps
[15:35]	Aimee Trescothick: 	splittable scroll areas would be useful in the inventory, and script and notecard editors too, solve lots of problems in one :)
[15:35]	Nicholas Hawthorne: 	X3
[15:35]	Nicholas Hawthorne: 	lol
[15:35]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Mweh Mweh! :O
[15:35]	Armin Weatherwax: 	and have it red and big when blinking (the down arrow)
[15:35]	Malbers Linden: 	Urg! I can't remember the last time I crashed.
[15:35]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Notice that there's an annoying "free" reset whenever you switch tabs too. So you can't line up something in history and then come back to it later.
[15:36]	McCabe Maxsted: 	aww
[15:36]	Charlette Proto: 	I carsh Imprudence every time I try audio stream, no matter what codec
[15:36]	Morgaine Dinova: 	LL is big on free resets. We have them in Appearances and in Edit too --- always moving things for "free".
[15:36]	McCabe Maxsted: 	what viewer are you using?
[15:36]	Aimee Trescothick crashes regularly, my viewer doesn't though 	Aimee Trescothick crashes regularly, my viewer doesn't though
[15:36]	Malbers Linden: 	I came back to say I'm late for my next meeting
[15:37]	Morgaine Dinova: 	lol
[15:37]	McCabe Maxsted: 	aw
[15:37]	Squirrel Wood: 	Hellos!
[15:37]	Nicholas Hawthorne: 	XD
[15:37]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Wb Amlb :-)
[15:37]	McCabe Maxsted wishes you goodluck with that then hehe 	McCabe Maxsted wishes you goodluck with that then hehe
[15:37]	Malbers Linden: 	good seeing you all
[15:37]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehe, aww bye Malbers
[15:37]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Wb Malb :-)
[15:37]	McCabe Maxsted: 	ahoy squirrel!
[15:37]	Malbers Linden: 	talk soon
[15:37]	McCabe Maxsted: 	likewise malbers :)
[15:37]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Come back again!
[15:37]	Geneko Nemeth: 	One halfways?
[15:37]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hiya Squirrel!
[15:37]	Squirrel Wood: 	Malbers gone fishing?
[15:37]	Nicholas Hawthorne: 	lol
[15:38]	Nicholas Hawthorne: 	no, to a meeting
[15:38]	Squirrel Wood: 	eww
[15:38]	Squirrel Wood: 	meetings.
[15:38]	Nicholas Hawthorne: 	lol
[15:38]	Geneko Nemeth: 	If dealing with mature contents can be said as fishing...
[15:38]	Nicholas Hawthorne: 	XD
[15:38]	Squirrel Wood: 	I just hope LL knows what they are doing
[15:38]	Charlette Proto: 	mature content usually is FISHY
[15:38]	Jacek Antonelli: 	The viewer has some weird and inconsistent UI paradigms. It needs a solid set of guidelines, I think.
[15:38]	McCabe Maxsted: 	don't envy him on that one. Don't know how you can distinguish that adequately to users
[15:38]	StarSong Bright: 	hi all
[15:38]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hey Star :)
[15:38]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hah squirrel
[15:38]	McCabe Maxsted: 	star!
[15:38]	McCabe Maxsted: 	and omg yes, jacek!
[15:39]	McCabe Maxsted has been thinking that for ages, now 	McCabe Maxsted has been thinking that for ages, now
[15:39]	Charlette Proto: 	but i thought we could just tweak for ever without GUIDELINES AND ROADMAP
[15:39]	Geneko Nemeth isn't sure what is a UI pardiagram... 	Geneko Nemeth isn't sure what is a UI pardiagram...
[15:39]	Squirrel Wood: 	LL should not open up an "adult continent" as they said in the blog post. they should open up a PG continent.
[15:39]	Charlette Proto: 	UI PARADISE
[15:39]	Aimee Trescothick: 	mm, viewer UI style guide
[15:39]	Geneko Nemeth: 	We already have; it's the Teen Grid.
[15:39]	Charlette Proto: 	no paradigm
[15:39]	Nicholas Hawthorne: 	no
[15:39]	Squirrel Wood: 	teen grid will be merged with the main grid
[15:39]	McCabe Maxsted: 	I've had a few thoughts for simple rules-of-thumb
[15:40]	Geneko Nemeth: 	(Just that only Teens get to use it... TT)
[15:40]	Squirrel Wood: 	which is likely why they did that announcement today
[15:40]	Nicholas Hawthorne: 	the Teen Grid is about to offically die
[15:40]	Geneko Nemeth: 	It sounds like that.
[15:40]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I'm sure LL knows what it's doing **from their point of view** --- trouble is, that's micromanagement of the world, which they're not meant to be doing. Just hands off.
[15:40]	Squirrel Wood: 	Mayhaps US Government is pressuring them to do something
[15:40]	Charlette Proto: 	Nicholas are you generally on the Teen Grid and have been dumped here
[15:40]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Sometimes what's good isn't necessiarily right.
[15:40]	Squirrel Wood: 	after all LL is a US company
[15:41]	Nicholas Hawthorne: 	it is that way, i heard a friend in TG say that LL destroyed a sim, and destroyed a TSL mentors group
[15:41]	Squirrel Wood: 	And with all the narrow minded individuals in politics...
[15:41]	Nicholas Hawthorne: 	lol, no, i just turned 18 couple months ago
[15:41]	Geneko Nemeth: 	They don't know what they are doing.
[15:41]	Geneko Nemeth: 	/no
[15:41]	Charlette Proto: 	I can tell Nicholas, I gather info in welcome areas
[15:42]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Squirrel: the US proportion of SL inhabitants is not a majority (some 45%) --- so the majority don't care what the US government thinks. It's a virtual world, not a US VW.
[15:42]	StarSong Bright: 	i am just really glad i moved velvet thorn to an island.. i would hate to have to move when i had not planned for it
[15:42]	Nicholas Hawthorne: 	everyone in TG is mad at LL now becuase they destroyed basically the main group of mentors
[15:42]	Squirrel Wood: 	Yes Morgaine. but LL is a US company and thus bound to follow US law
[15:42]	Morgaine Dinova: 	There is no law that they're obeying for this
[15:43]	Squirrel Wood: 	and if some us politician on crack thinks that all mature content must be banned from SL then LL will have to do something about it.
[15:43]	Morgaine Dinova: 	No they don't. Politicians aren't the law.
[15:43]	Squirrel Wood: 	there apparently are laws. Teens must be protected from non pg content.
[15:43]	Charlette Proto: 	in Australia the gov wants to filer all on the net hehe
[15:43]	Nicholas Hawthorne: 	it's SL they can't, and hopefully won't do that
[15:43]	McCabe Maxsted: 	ack, lag hell
[15:43]	Geneko Nemeth: 	The Great Australian Firewall! Mweh Mweh! :O
[15:44]	Squirrel Wood: 	firelag
[15:44]	Charlette Proto: 	precisely geneko
[15:44]	McCabe Maxsted: 	anyway, http://secondmccabe.blogspot.com/2009/02/design-guidelines-for-imprudence-draft.html my stream of consciousness
[15:44]	Squirrel Wood: 	tor proxy circumvents it
[15:44]	Geneko Nemeth has been living behind the Great Firewall for some years 	Geneko Nemeth has been living behind the Great Firewall for some years
[15:44]	Nicholas Hawthorne: 	i agree that teens under 18 have to be protected, but we are talking adults here (way over 18, pardon if i offended anyone by saying that)
[15:44]	Charlette Proto: 	I think it can only be done as modem/router based filtering but nobody is doing that
[15:44]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Has had been actually.
[15:44]	Squirrel Wood: 	Ahem. Protected? Even BABIES get to see bare breasts.
[15:45]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I doubt it's pressure from the US government. More likely they are either merging TG/MG, or there is commercial pressure from companies who would be making big deals except they're standoffish about the sex that goes on.
[15:45]	Squirrel Wood: 	and so far I have yet to hear any baby complain about it
[15:45]	Nicholas Hawthorne: 	becuase they need it, duh
[15:45]	Nicholas Hawthorne: 	lol
[15:45]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Well, if the TG merges into the rest of Agni sometimes you want to um, "protect" them...
[15:45]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hah squirrel
[15:45]	Charlette Proto: 	agree with Jacek on the merge
[15:45]	Nicholas Hawthorne: 	babies don't even talk, so they have no say in this issue :)
[15:45]	StarSong Bright: 	as the owner of a popular "adult" sim i hate it
[15:46]	StarSong Bright: 	its distressing to be the age polcie
[15:46]	StarSong Bright: 	*police
[15:46]	McCabe Maxsted nods. I was actually thinking about you star when I read the blog post. Are you going to have to relocate anything? 	McCabe Maxsted nods. I was actually thinking about you star when I read the blog post. Are you going to have to relocate anything?
[15:46]	Squirrel Wood: 	age verification.... I did it as the US government already knows all the information that is asked for from previous travels to the US....
[15:46]	Charlette Proto: 	absolutely Star it is not realistic to expect inworld age policing
[15:46]	Squirrel Wood: 	nothing new there
[15:46]	Morgaine Dinova: 	McCabe: add "in newbie mode" to item 2. Presumably Imprudence isn't only a viewer for newbies, and non-newbies may consider your "strong feature" to be a weak or unhelpful feature.
[15:46]	Squirrel Wood: 	or exciting
[15:46]	StarSong Bright: 	i get enough troubles worrying about @#$#$ ageplay and avatars looking under 17, forget having to wonder if the human at the keys is 14
[15:47]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I think that actually payment info is actually needed for Mature places.
[15:47]	McCabe Maxsted: 	I don't think so, morgaine. A strong feature should definitionally be useful across a broad spectrum of experience
[15:47]	Charlette Proto: 	don't underage people have their own genitals anyway
[15:47]	Geneko Nemeth: 	But they a few months ago they checked in a "XXX" category to PG/Mature settings, so...
[15:47]	Squirrel Wood: 	I would just go and not render anything on non verified clients that is not explicitely flagged PG
[15:47]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Or so I heard.
[15:48]	Morgaine Dinova: 	McCabe: if it's a "strong" because it's powerful, sure. But if it's "strong" because it's dumbed down for mass appeal, then no.
[15:48]	Geneko Nemeth: 	That would probably happen, Teen residents can't see Mature sims or something.
[15:48]	McCabe Maxsted: 	ah, yeah, total agreement there. I would cal that a weak feature
[15:48]	Geneko Nemeth: 	The sims don't even need to send the data.
[15:49]	McCabe Maxsted: 	the distinction between "dumbed down" and "simplified" and "streamlined" is interesting, though
[15:49]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Indeed
[15:49]	Nicholas Hawthorne: 	now what i'm wondering is this, is LL's latest blog post an indication of the merge of TG and MG into SL? and if so when would it happen if it does at all..
[15:49]	Squirrel Wood: 	Assume that people cannot follow simple instructions like "Click the button that is labelled 'Save'"
[15:50]	McCabe Maxsted: 	sometimes it feels like the viewer is just a mass of edge cases thrown together..
[15:50]	Nicholas Hawthorne: 	lol
[15:50]	Charlette Proto: 	what about Sex Wallet etc, perhaps protection should be also related to executing animations when the user is accepting or requesting them
[15:50]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Nicholas: the merge is no secret, Philip said it was happening during a talk. No dates, that's all.
[15:51]	Nicholas Hawthorne: 	if LL is merging the grids, it is going to have to rethink the whole viewer
[15:51]	Charlette Proto: 	you can rez a Sez Wallet in a sandbox and there goes the whole PG/Mature/XXX thing out the window
[15:51]	Geneko Nemeth wonders what's a Sex Wallet. 	Geneko Nemeth wonders what's a Sex Wallet.
[15:51]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hehe I suspect that's malber's current dilemma
[15:51]	Nicholas Hawthorne: 	lol
[15:51]	Charlette Proto: 	sexposes rezzable anywhere where building is allowed - BYO orgy
[15:52]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Sounds like portableapps.com for sex...
[15:52]	Morgaine Dinova: 	It's a common dilemma: "Mad as a hatter CEO gives me an impossible task".
[15:52]	McCabe Maxsted: 	'how do I signify "adult only"? hmm... maybe some sort of whip cracking sound on parcel entry"
[15:52]	StarSong Bright: 	i belonog to an association of femdom sims... we have already begun pondering what this move will mean for our membership. I have many many friends who woudl never do the age verification and go so far as those walgreens pay as you go cards so that they dont have to give LL their info.. I think we are all concerned that we are going to have a major hit to traffic.. that of course wil lhave a direct impact on our sim's abilities to support themselves as it will drop mall sales, donations, etc... its really worrysome
[15:52]	Charlette Proto: 	basically has nothing to do with a sim restriction as far as exposure to mature content goes
[15:53]	McCabe Maxsted nods. Yeah. You will, both in traffic and in customers; if I read it right, they're talking about usin gpayment info on file as the equivalent of adult verification 	McCabe Maxsted nods. Yeah. You will, both in traffic and in customers; if I read it right, they're talking about usin gpayment info on file as the equivalent of adult verification
[15:53]	Squirrel Wood: 	I think LL will differentiate between mainland and private sims
[15:53]	Squirrel Wood: 	whom you allow on your sim is your business and your risk
[15:53]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Private sims also have to be flagged correctly
[15:53]	Nicholas Hawthorne: 	lol, i have to go, and re read the blog post again, bye all
[15:53]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Hi SonyaWells.
[15:53]	Charlette Proto: 	so the user needs to be veryfird beyond the sim issue and what is stopping a bunch of mature users being OK and doing it in a PG area in fromt ot the minors
[15:53]	Squirrel Wood: 	most of them are flagged mature anyway
[15:53]	McCabe Maxsted: 	see ya nicholas
[15:54]	StarSong Bright: 	but that is patiently ridiculous as a 14 year old can go to wallgreens or walmart or whatever and buy a prepaid credit card..
[15:54]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Them being AR'd.
[15:54]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah, but now if they are "for adults", they have to be flagged as Adult, and that means unverified users can't enter
[15:54]	Charlette Proto: 	the whole thing is a joke or a nightmare depending on how you look at it unless all agents in the area are veryfied for Mature before any animation is executed
[15:54]	Jacek Antonelli: 	So, even private estates would receive a hit in traffic
[15:54]	Morgaine Dinova: 	It's a totally ridiculous idea. How can you even shop for shapes and skins without being exposed to "adult" content?
[15:54]	StarSong Bright: 	and what teenager cant break into moms purse for 15 mins and borrow her cards to verify? so long as they dont cahrge anythign she'd never know
[15:55]	Squirrel Wood: 	atm its the sim owners choice if payment info or age verification is required to enter the sim
[15:55]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Fufufufufu...
[15:55]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Pantsu?
[15:55]	StarSong Bright: 	no way i am going to do that in my sim until they force my arm up behind my back and frogmarch me to the option box
[15:55]	Charlette Proto: 	shall I expose myself now as a for of protest HEHE
[15:55]	Charlette Proto: 	just kidding
[15:55]	Squirrel Wood: 	this sim is mature. go for it :p
[15:56]	Squirrel Wood: 	besides.....
[15:56]	Squirrel Wood: 	Drama (n.) - A collection of furries.
[15:56]	McCabe Maxsted: 	yeah, but with ghetotizing all adult content, it's a logical conclusion fro them to restrict access even for estates
[15:56]	Squirrel Wood: 	Ex. Here comes a drama of three furs.
[15:56]	Charlette Proto: 	yes it would be quite legal Geneko but do you really want to see me naked
[15:56]	StarSong Bright: 	oh thats rich, the linden islands oudl be offlimits to noobs
[15:56]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Hehehe...
[15:56]	Charlette Proto: 	and what about the underage amongst us here
[15:56]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Charlette --- I'm not sure your current outfit would even be allowed in PG land under the new rules
[15:56]	StarSong Bright: 	hey maybe THAT is what this is all about
[15:56]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Well, I'll just say I'm not interested in mature stuff.
[15:57]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hehehe
[15:57]	Charlette Proto: 	I spend the whole day in PG but wear a bra
[15:57]	Charlette Proto: 	OK I'll fix it now
[15:57]	McCabe Maxsted: 	I am so going to plead the fifth on enjoying adult stuff
[15:57]	Jacek Antonelli: 	heh
[15:57]	Charlette Proto: 	there
[15:58]	McCabe Maxsted is a little angel *jumps on trunk until all the hookers fit* 	McCabe Maxsted is a little angel *jumps on trunk until all the hookers fit*
[15:58]	Squirrel Wood: 	Yeah? Well I want a Pretty pink Birthday cake with my face on it.
[15:58]	StarSong Bright: 	hahahah
[15:58]	Squirrel Wood: 	But that doesn't mean its gonna happen!
[15:58]	Charlette Proto: 	in the same way in a mixed grid there is not much hope of really protecting minors from all kinds of BYO mature content
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli: 	That's true, Charlette. But LL's ass will be covered, because "you're not supposed to do that".
[15:59]	Charlette Proto: 	thinking that Morgaine may have been looking at my breasts
[15:59]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I think we're going to have to find naked furry avs that push the limit towards humans, just to see what gives in this nutty area.
[15:59]	Squirrel Wood: 	any form of "protection" is going to fail
[15:59]	Squirrel Wood: 	totally
[15:59]	Geneko Nemeth: 	tits = gtfo.
[15:59]	McCabe Maxsted: 	will it really be covered? What happens when the 12 year old's mom finds out her daughter's been stripping for lindens?
[15:59]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Charlette, I'm a few years past caring. And you looked nice before :-)
[15:59]	Geneko Nemeth: 	But apart from taht... it's not gonig to be easy.
[16:00]	Charlette Proto: 	yes true Jacek, but lots of work when you consider that it will not be practical
[16:00]	Armin Weatherwax: 	but can a furry be naked at all, morgaine ?
[16:00]	Armin Weatherwax: 	i mean we have fur
[16:00]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Well, I say I'm naked...
[16:00]	Charlette Proto: 	thanks Moragaine
[16:00]	StarSong Bright ponders if this dress is pg-ready, laughs 	StarSong Bright ponders if this dress is pg-ready, laughs
[16:01]	McCabe Maxsted is having a hard time seeing any lawyer not going after the Big Company with the Big Bucks 	McCabe Maxsted is having a hard time seeing any lawyer not going after the Big Company with the Big Bucks
[16:01]	McCabe Maxsted: 	aw
[16:01]	McCabe Maxsted: 	you are the best UXIG Mascot we've ever had Star :) Don't ever change!
[16:01]	Charlette Proto: 	so will every object containg a RATING ATTRIBUTE or how can this whole mess be implemented without majour gaps
[16:01]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Probably not, Star! Their new FAQ says that "sexy clothing" is for Mature sims and up :D
[16:01]	StarSong Bright: 	by making any effort at all it seems like they are opening themselves up to trouble when they cant deliver
[16:01]	StarSong Bright: 	lol mc
[16:02]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Underage avatars can't wear dresses then?
[16:02]	Squirrel Wood: 	You will need to cover your entire avatar in kosher clothing so that no hair or skin is visible. :p
[16:02]	StarSong Bright: 	smiles at jacek with a wink
[16:02]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Well the main grid was an adult place so the whole thing is non-PC, even the poshest of ballgowns. So this whole things is going to be a disaster, reinventing SL to a kiddle spec.
[16:02]	Geneko Nemeth: 	What about eyes.
[16:02]	Squirrel Wood: 	Best to stay a steam cloud.
[16:02]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hah
[16:02]	StarSong Bright envisions a large pickle avatar, a sculpty mabye 	StarSong Bright envisions a large pickle avatar, a sculpty mabye
[16:02]	Squirrel Wood: 	though I bet there will be someone who'll find that offensive :p
[16:02]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Rule 34.
[16:02]	Jacek Antonelli: 	A pickle avatar? Too phallic, no good.
[16:02]	McCabe Maxsted: 	someone should make a Sharia sim. "No ankle showing! No tping without a man!"
[16:03]	StarSong Bright: 	here is something to ponder, what will be the rule for profiles and picks?
[16:03]	Squirrel Wood: 	Ooo! AR! AR! This guy there is a sexy looking steam cloud. Ahhh! My poor virgin eyes!
[16:03]	Charlette Proto: 	ah good point there give everyone built in undies etc that can't come off if underage users can see
[16:03]	McCabe Maxsted: 	proiles are already covered under the community standards
[16:03]	McCabe Maxsted: 	technically you're not supposed to have anything mature in them
[16:03]	Geneko Nemeth: 	As I said... a check "this profile is mature" and if checked, that's all underage residents see.
[16:03]	McCabe Maxsted: 	buuuuuuut
[16:03]	StarSong Bright: 	heh i have seen a few that made even me look twice
[16:03]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Nothing prevents you from not checking that though.
[16:03]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Where, where? :P
[16:03]	Charlette Proto: 	what about MARURE CHAT!!!!!
[16:04]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Look twice, or three times... or four...
[16:04]	McCabe Maxsted got called out for having penis jokes in his when he joined the mentor program :P 	McCabe Maxsted got called out for having penis jokes in his when he joined the mentor program :P
[16:04]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Manure chat?
[16:04]	Charlette Proto: 	is every word going to be scanned
[16:04]	Squirrel Wood: 	do not expect people to follow community standards.
[16:04]	Squirrel Wood: 	LL does log all chat.
[16:04]	Charlette Proto: 	syr but there are a few more MATURE ideas in my head
[16:04]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hey CB :)
[16:04]	Squirrel Wood: 	though they only look at it when its absolutely neccessary
[16:04]	StarSong Bright: 	do they log it all? i thougth i read that they dont
[16:04]	ChatBrat Pippita: 	hey Jacek :)
[16:04]	Charlette Proto: 	log is one thing exposure of minors is another
[16:05]	Squirrel Wood: 	they need to log it if they have to sort out arguments
[16:05]	Charlette Proto: 	BTW I don't wish to expose minors either
[16:05]	Squirrel Wood: 	your "minors" likely have seen their first porn flick at the age of 10
[16:05]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Well, pretty much, they're not going to be able to do anything except respond to ARs. Even though they claim they're going to be "proactive", that's a silly claim
[16:06]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Not me. I've been keet under wraps of China for 18 years.
[16:06]	Charlette Proto: 	the only way I can see it working in practice is to age verify everyone on the adult grid and keep teen separate
[16:06]	Jacek Antonelli: 	They don't have the resources -- no one does -- to scour the grid
[16:06]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Then again i myself chose not to see these... and then I still stumble on them.
[16:06]	Morgaine Dinova: 	The minors don't actually care, this is being done for their parents and assorted pressure groups. If you remember when you were kids, hey, the more the merrier!
[16:07]	Charlette Proto: 	just as well parents are not on the grid hehe
[16:07]	Squirrel Wood: 	protection of minors will work to a degree. but will have a high chance to fail and be ineffective. No matter what.
[16:07]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Ain't that true :P
[16:07]	McCabe Maxsted: 	jacek: there are a few groups of people who try to, though. Some mentors try to be police. there's even an "SLPD" that tries to bully people around
[16:07]	ChatBrat Pippita: 	i'm not sure i'd want my folks to know what i do O.o
[16:07]	Charlette Proto: 	SLPD is a joke
[16:07]	StarSong Bright: 	i was appalled to discover a guy i have known two years just turned 18.. heh.. /me covers eyes.. he does a good imatation of 22.. even i was fooled...
[16:08]	ChatBrat Pippita: 	what's SLPD?
[16:08]	Geneko Nemeth is worried if this would mean residents from China would be some day denied access to Mature regions altogether. 	Geneko Nemeth is worried if this would mean residents from China would be some day denied access to Mature regions altogether.
[16:08]	McCabe Maxsted: 	aw
[16:08]	Charlette Proto: 	yep happens all the time Star
[16:08]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yeah, there are some power tripping freaks. But there are more puritan pressure groups, in the US at least it seems.
[16:08]	Squirrel Wood: 	slpd or any other "police" group if trying to police or bully people in the furnation sandboxes they are shown the boot.
[16:08]	StarSong Bright: 	well at least i can feel good in that i taught him his manners early lol...
[16:08]	Squirrel Wood: 	as they have no authority whatsoever there :p
[16:08]	McCabe Maxsted: 	what charlette said: a joke, but one people get fooled by
[16:09]	Charlette Proto: 	given the kid good upbringing Star
[16:09]	Charlette Proto: 	true noobs have no idea about a thing McCabe
[16:09]	ChatBrat Pippita: 	do the Lindens show up for office hours?
[16:09]	StarSong Bright laughs to think what else he learned hanging out in my sim but.. thats just my point.. does it fall to me to be the age police? as sim owner am i responsible? 	StarSong Bright laughs to think what else he learned hanging out in my sim but.. thats just my point.. does it fall to me to be the age police? as sim owner am i responsible?
[16:09]	Charlette Proto: 	impersonating authority of any kind in Second Life™ should = ban
[16:09]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Not anymore... except one just did.
[16:09]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Not these ones, Chat. Actually, these aren't really office hours anymore
[16:10]	ChatBrat Pippita: 	oh? no more OHs?
[16:10]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Heh. I wonder if puritans could be called "life noobs".
[16:10]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Don't think we'll be seening these for a while...
[16:10]	McCabe Maxsted: 	star: I dunno. I've asked that a couple of times and always gotten slightly different answers
[16:10]	Squirrel Wood: 	bug triages are going strong
[16:10]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Thursdays from 3-4PM at this location used to be the Resident Experience Team's office hours. But they've pretty much given up
[16:10]	Squirrel Wood: 	documentation OH as well
[16:10]	StarSong Bright: 	i suppose the chat is all logged by the hand there? seems all we get now is "talk to the hand"
[16:11]	Squirrel Wood: 	usually 3-5 lindens at those
[16:11]	Geneko Nemeth can't come to the doc OH because he's got a class... >_> 	Geneko Nemeth can't come to the doc OH because he's got a class... >_>
[16:11]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Hi Abyssau!
[16:11]	ChatBrat Pippita: 	so what am i gate-crashing? :D
[16:11]	ChatBrat Pippita: 	and should i go?
[16:11]	Geneko Nemeth: 	You can stay here all right.
[16:11]	McCabe Maxsted: 	knaw, stay, mroe than welcome :)
[16:11]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yeah, Malbers saying in answer to Jacek's invite that he'd pop in if there was something interesting and relevant is pretty much a "No" answer.
[16:11]	Jacek Antonelli: 	This is UXIG -- User Experience Interest Group. We took over the Lindens' time slot when they abandoned us
[16:11]	Charlette Proto: 	ChatBrat, just look at your name to find out who/what you are
[16:11]	ChatBrat Pippita: 	ty
[16:12]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Semi-official orginations are quite rare these days :)
[16:12]	Squirrel Wood: 	with office hours there's usually always the same people attending them... hardly any player cares about them
[16:12]	Geneko Nemeth: 	They didn't advertise much to begin with.
[16:12]	ChatBrat Pippita: 	Charlette, if only i could read ...
[16:12]	Squirrel Wood: 	aye
[16:12]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Doc OH has Torley as anchor...
[16:12]	Charlette Proto: 	I was affraid you can ony write ChatBrat
[16:12]	Geneko Nemeth: 	others are pretty specific interest.
[16:13]	Squirrel Wood: 	documentation office hours used to be nice and quiet... now that Torley's in the team they are... lets say not much gets discussed anymore
[16:13]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah, some OHs are still going strong. Just not these ones
[16:13]	ChatBrat Pippita: 	hehehe Charlette :)
[16:13]	Squirrel Wood: 	people show up because of Torley
[16:13]	McCabe Maxsted nods 	McCabe Maxsted nods
[16:13]	Geneko Nemeth: 	So maybe Torley should have his own office hours like before?
[16:13]	McCabe Maxsted: 	Torley is great, but I've noticed that too
[16:13]	ChatBrat Pippita: 	is that good or bad? i've never met Torley
[16:13]	Squirrel Wood: 	he still dows
[16:13]	Jacek Antonelli: 	The Lindens apparently decided that users' opinions aren't really important when trying to improve the user experience
[16:13]	Squirrel Wood: 	does
[16:13]	Squirrel Wood: 	if you follow him on twitter
[16:13]	Geneko Nemeth: 	O RLY...
[16:14]	Squirrel Wood: 	you know when and where
[16:14]	StarSong Bright: 	so, to me it looks like our current user experience consists of sitting in a dark basket with the smell of sulfer waifting in under the picknic blanket
[16:14]	Charlette Proto: 	well that says a lot for LL methodology Jacek
[16:14]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I've seldom seen him make any announcement about in-world...
[16:14]	Charlette Proto: 	perhaps they will build a viewer for Lindens only
[16:14]	Squirrel Wood: 	http://twitter.com/torley
[16:14]	Geneko Nemeth: 	It may look dire but we do have a pet fork.
[16:14]	McCabe Maxsted: 	I dunno. Torley is awesome, makes me grin every time I see him in that infectous good person kinda way. His communication dynamic seems to be more teaching the people who don't know rather than talking about issues everyone knows
[16:15]	McCabe Maxsted: 	at least in an OH sense, I'm sure he's not like that in other places
[16:15]	ChatBrat Pippita: 	kk - ty McCabe
[16:16]	Charlette Proto: 	Torley is great but noobs don't understand his tutorials and experienced users like them but find them too shalow unlike the wikis with links
[16:16]	Squirrel Wood: 	Assume that people cannot follow simple instructions like "Click the button that is labelled 'Save'"
[16:16]	McCabe Maxsted actaully really gets a kick about talking about hacking up this here UI :D (I've alwyas sort of had the attitude that as long as *someone* is actuvely working on good ideas, progress is happening) 	McCabe Maxsted actaully really gets a kick about talking about hacking up this here UI :D (I've alwyas sort of had the attitude that as long as *someone* is actuvely working on good ideas, progress is happening)
[16:17]	Squirrel Wood: 	LL has undergone major restructuring in the company
[16:17]	Armin Weatherwax: 	yeah, what about the multi layered pies and cakes ?
[16:17]	Geneko Nemeth: 	So um, I thought the original topic was about avatar-to-object interaction.
[16:17]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe
[16:18]	StarSong Bright: 	yes but now we have to worry if the object is mature
[16:18]	StarSong Bright: 	laughs
[16:18]	McCabe Maxsted will let the people interested in cake menus implement those (and don't forget the frosting) ;) 	McCabe Maxsted will let the people interested in cake menus implement those (and don't forget the frosting) ;)
[16:18]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Well, I did something about pies: http://imprudenceviewer.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=192
[16:18]	Jacek Antonelli: 	It was going to be, Gen, but the Lindens kinda pre-empted that
[16:18]	Charlette Proto: 	well nest time we will do avie-object stuff
[16:18]	Squirrel Wood: 	will you be able to link PG and mature prims together ?
[16:18]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah, we'll talk about it next week
[16:18]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hehe
[16:18]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I know~ but sinde we've been seeming to have UXIG bi-hours lately.
[16:18]	Charlette Proto: 	unless SEX interactions are the most important kid then we covered some of the dangers at lest
[16:18]	Geneko Nemeth: 	We could always talk about it for another 42 minutes.
[16:19]	Squirrel Wood: 	eww. 42.
[16:19]	Charlette Proto: 	I'm free till 5pm
[16:19]	Jacek Antonelli: 	All this talk of mature content made me interpret "bi hours" in a different way >_>
[16:19]	StarSong Bright cringes at the expanded cake menus.. ew 	StarSong Bright cringes at the expanded cake menus.. ew
[16:19]	Charlette Proto: 	and never left earlier
[16:19]	Geneko Nemeth sometimes feels bi. 	Geneko Nemeth sometimes feels bi.
[16:19]	Squirrel Wood: 	just go ahead and click my nose :p
[16:19]	Geneko Nemeth: 	So I guess you -could-take it both ways....
[16:19]	Jacek Antonelli: 	heh
[16:20]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hahaha
[16:20]	Charlette Proto: 	squirrel your tail is not even clickable
[16:20]	McCabe Maxsted throws cake 	McCabe Maxsted throws cake
[16:20]	McCabe Maxsted: 	I love love LOVE mockups geneko!
[16:20]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Scripting a touchable tail does need a most peculiar humour.
[16:21]	Geneko Nemeth: 	That's why I made it McCabe.
[16:21]	StarSong Bright: 	they exist, i have tuggged one heh
[16:21]	Squirrel Wood: 	my tail is not clickable. yep.
[16:21]	Squirrel Wood: 	but my nose is :p
[16:21]	Charlette Proto: 	I feel funeh about clicking on any part of an avie myself
[16:21]	McCabe Maxsted: 	aww
[16:21]	StarSong Bright: 	laughs
[16:21]	Geneko Nemeth: 	All mockups no code isn't much use... although I could change that.
[16:21]	Squirrel Wood: 	cllick it. You know you want to
[16:22]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Aww, Starsong beat me to it.
[16:22]	McCabe Maxsted: 	well, it's no good talking about something when everyone doesn't know what you're talking about
[16:22]	StarSong Bright: 	giggles, tucks hands behind back
[16:22]	StarSong Bright: 	its an object, how can i not click it????
[16:22]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hehe
[16:22]	Squirrel Wood: 	you achieved an achievment :p
[16:22]	StarSong Bright: 	i am interacting with the world
[16:22]	Squirrel Wood: 	and we have griefers in the sim it seems
[16:22]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Avatar-to-object interactio = clicking Squirrel's nose?
[16:23]	Charlette Proto: 	good start Jacek
[16:23]	Geneko Nemeth: 	That's one of them... but that's more of an avatar-to-avatar one.
[16:23]	Squirrel Wood: 	you get an achievment for clicking my nose :p
[16:23]	Charlette Proto: 	perhaps we rez some poseballs now
[16:23]	StarSong Bright: 	one of my friends usually wears her chim on her chest .. inviting folks to tweak to dance.. usually gets a rise out of em
[16:23]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Her what.
[16:23]	Jacek Antonelli: 	heh
[16:23]	Charlette Proto: 	keep going with the mature theme
[16:23]	McCabe Maxsted: 	..... I can imagine it does....
[16:24]	Geneko Nemeth: 	And also av-2-obj i9n.
[16:25]	Charlette Proto: 	avatar to avatar interactions like touching - i want to hear what can be done
[16:25]	Charlette Proto: 	and I don't mean playing fixed animations
[16:26]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I see a cage.
[16:26]	Charlette Proto: 	eg I want to kick someone in a particular part of the body
[16:26]	StarSong Bright: 	the big one i always hear in my sim is for one avatar to be able to sit on anothers attachment without it having to be both of them on a vehicle... ponyies with saddle backpacks, for example (hmmm am i allowed to mention that here now with the new rules? lol)
[16:26]	Charlette Proto: 	like ChatBrat
[16:26]	Squirrel Wood: 	AR Syko Actor
[16:27]	Squirrel Wood: 	he's the cause of the particle crap
[16:27]	Charlette Proto: 	yep I'l love to sit on lap Star
[16:27]	ChatBrat Pippita: 	uh oh Charlette - what did i do now? :)
[16:27]	Charlette Proto: 	ah a griefer nice
[16:27]	StarSong Bright: 	nods
[16:27]	StarSong Bright: 	well of course soemthign like that might lead to people sitting on yoru hair
[16:27]	Geneko Nemeth: 	How do we AR him when we can't even see him.
[16:27]	StarSong Bright: 	lol omg that owuld not be good in a noob area
[16:28]	Charlette Proto: 	owner deleted already
[16:28]	McCabe Maxsted: 	or, quite literally, riding your ass
[16:28]	Squirrel Wood: 	that was quick
[16:28]	Jacek Antonelli: 	*ba-dum ching!*
[16:28]	Squirrel Wood: 	search still finds him
[16:28]	Charlette Proto: 	can't do AR really
[16:29]	Squirrel Wood: 	help, report abuse
[16:29]	Squirrel Wood: 	pick the name
[16:29]	ChatBrat Pippita: 	everything happens so fast in SL - people meet, get married and divorced in 2 weeks - surely the teens will be adults in less time than that?
[16:30]	StarSong Bright: 	heh from what i have seen they might be more grown up than some 40 year olds
[16:30]	ChatBrat Pippita: 	true that StarSong
[16:30]	Jacek Antonelli: 	RL kids are already talking in detail about sex when they are 10.
[16:30]	ChatBrat Pippita: 	Jacek O.o
[16:30]	ChatBrat Pippita: 	10?
[16:31]	Squirrel Wood: 	When did YOU see your first porn flick?
[16:31]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah, 10.
[16:31]	McCabe Maxsted nods. I feel bad about that actually, star. Seems like all the good kids go to the TG, while the crappy ones lie and come on the MG. What will happen to those good TG hangouts when the grids merge? 	McCabe Maxsted nods. I feel bad about that actually, star. Seems like all the good kids go to the TG, while the crappy ones lie and come on the MG. What will happen to those good TG hangouts when the grids merge?
[16:31]	StarSong Bright: 	but i do have worries about young kids finding their way into gor and stuff... even my sim, while very mild.. could be harmful to them...
[16:31]	Morgaine Dinova: 	More like 6 than 10. There is telly after all.
[16:31]	Charlette Proto: 	so how about we face up to this and RATE Second Life™ as a matrue app and leave it up to the user, forget all the inworld separation of PG/XXX
[16:32]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I would second that, Charlette
[16:32]	ChatBrat Pippita: 	i'm more worried that i'd be unknowingly guilty of corrupting a minor :s
[16:32]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Corrupting? As if the little buggers were innocent :P
[16:32]	McCabe Maxsted: 	well
[16:32]	StarSong Bright: 	heh well as i said, found out i have known a minor for two years, hes legal now but geez.. eeeks
[16:33]	Charlette Proto: 	OK ChatBrat that is enough from you
[16:33]	McCabe Maxsted: 	if you met him/her on SL™ and tried to arrange a meetup, thinking they were older
[16:33]	[Griefer object spam] 	[Griefer object spam]
[16:33]	[Griefer object spam] 	[Griefer object spam]
[16:33]	StarSong Bright: 	heh /me rolls eyes, you can say that again
[16:33]	McCabe Maxsted: 	you would be guilty of a felony charge
[16:33]	McCabe Maxsted: 	at least here in the US
[16:33]	[Griefer object spam] 	[Griefer object spam]
[16:33]	[Griefer object spam] 	[Griefer object spam]
[16:33]	ChatBrat Pippita: 	ok i'm worried a minor will corrupt *me*
[16:33]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hahaha
[16:33]	[Griefer object spam] 	[Griefer object spam]
[16:33]	[Griefer object spam] 	[Griefer object spam]
[16:33]	Squirrel Wood: 	there goes the spam
[16:33]	[Griefer object spam] 	[Griefer object spam]
[16:33]	[Griefer object spam] 	[Griefer object spam]
[16:33]	[Griefer object spam] 	[Griefer object spam]
[16:33]	[Griefer object spam] 	[Griefer object spam]
[16:33]	StarSong Bright: 	ah well never did anything with the little b#$%@#$% tht i would be in trouble for.. but he hung arund a lot
[16:34]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hm, object names should be clickable in the chat history
[16:34]	ChatBrat Pippita: 	Charlette? do we have a problem?
[16:34]	Squirrel Wood: 	LL is taking their sweet time cleaning that mess up
[16:35]	McCabe Maxsted: 	clicking on it could open up a simple panel of buttons: delete, return, mute
[16:35]	Charlette Proto: 	offering animations to me 6 times and some webpage to follow is not normal behaviour and I consider it offensive
[16:35]	ChatBrat Pippita: 	huh?
[16:35]	Squirrel Wood: 	ah...
[16:35]	Squirrel Wood: 	the usual crap then
[16:35]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Charlette, that was one of the griefer objects. They change their names to nearby avatars
[16:36]	Charlette Proto: 	ah nice funeh it picke on ChatBrat
[16:36]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hey, that's an idea for UX mods --- more tools built in for identifying griefers.
[16:36]	ChatBrat Pippita: 	who offered the animations? i got the offers too but i assumed it was a griefer script - they're relatively common - i muted it
[16:36]	StarSong Bright: 	hmm i missed out on that
[16:36]	Squirrel Wood: 	I think LL just did a grid wide return of Syko Actor's objects
[16:37]	Squirrel Wood: 	clicking the object name in chat should give you its owner
[16:37]	StarSong Bright: 	speaking of finding griefer objects, does anybody know if there are any requests for more directed finding of prims in a sim? ie all prims between 4000m and 4092m for example? to find spaced items ...
[16:38]	Squirrel Wood: 	not that I am aware
[16:38]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hrmm. Why aren't context menus (right clicking) used more often in the viewer? Right click on a name, get a menu of actions
[16:38]	McCabe Maxsted: 	not that specific that I've seen
[16:38]	McCabe Maxsted: 	I dunno jacek
[16:38]	StarSong Bright: 	now that we can build that high it is way too easy to lose crap up in space
[16:38]	McCabe Maxsted: 	you used to be able to right click slurls and get a menu of options
[16:38]	McCabe Maxsted: 	certainly not unheard of; would people use it though
[16:39]	StarSong Bright: 	i have a little object logger but it simply cant handle a full sim scan and i ahvent found one that can be set for specific heights, they usualy time out before they get up there
[16:39]	ChatBrat Pippita: 	i guess i should go - it was nice meeting you guys - take care
[16:39]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I'd sure like a way to find objects within a sim. I lose all kinds of stuff >_>
[16:39]	StarSong Bright: 	bye chatbrat
[16:39]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Bye CB! Come back anytime :)
[16:39]	McCabe Maxsted: 	aw, okay; take care ChatBrat, hope to see you next week :)
[16:39]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I can't find a pile of prims that I know are on my parcel somewhere. Beacons aren't helping
[16:39]	ChatBrat Pippita: 	later Star, Jacek, McCabe :)
[16:40]	Squirrel Wood: 	do you know the object names ?
[16:40]	ChatBrat Pippita: 	thanks McCabe :)
[16:40]	McCabe Maxsted: 	:)
[16:40]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Nope
[16:40]	StarSong Bright: 	of my lost objects you mean squirrel, no, lol never
[16:40]	StarSong Bright: 	or they are helpfully called object
[16:40]	Squirrel Wood: 	just make a prim using a sensor that detects any prims belonging to you that moves from 4km down to the ground
[16:40]	Squirrel Wood: 	and whenever it finds something it yells at you
[16:40]	McCabe Maxsted: 	have you ever used dale glass' viewer? I think he had something like that in there IIRC
[16:41]	McCabe Maxsted: 	listed all the objects in a sim in sortabled windows he'd hacked together
[16:41]	StarSong Bright: 	no
[16:41]	StarSong Bright: 	hmmm
[16:41]	Jacek Antonelli: 	That would be handy
[16:41]	Morgaine Dinova: 	That would be good
[16:41]	McCabe Maxsted think so too 	McCabe Maxsted think so too
[16:41]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Especially if you could filter by owner and such
[16:41]	McCabe Maxsted: 	someone should look into that
[16:41]	McCabe Maxsted: 	(not it!)
[16:41]	Squirrel Wood: 	good luck
[16:41]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yes, someone should. <_<
[16:41]	Jacek Antonelli: 	(Damn)
[16:42]	McCabe Maxsted: 	:D
[16:42]	StarSong Bright: 	or when lokoing at the objects tab to be able to get a list of all somebody's prims and where they are.. i occasionally have one of the regulars (with lots of prims in the sim already) say oh i dropped my necklace (probably havign 300 prims or somethign) and i cant jsut do a simple return objects withotu blowing something up
[16:42]	StarSong Bright: 	its really inconvenient
[16:42]	Squirrel Wood: 	someone should also write up a sqlite driven local file cache for the client and provide a common interface that the client could utilize.
[16:42]	Squirrel Wood: 	and provide it as open source to LL
[16:42]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hm, you know, this would also solve a side effect of the "return to sim" feature in the inv
[16:43]	McCabe Maxsted: 	someone accidentally returned their earing? I think it was to the sim and lost it completely
[16:43]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Good luck finding something that small
[16:43]	StarSong Bright: 	yup
[16:43]	McCabe Maxsted: 	yeah
[16:43]	Jacek Antonelli: 	It wouldn't even render unless you were within a meter of it, or something
[16:43]	StarSong Bright: 	and soemthing like jewelery has a ridiculous number of prims, all tiny
[16:43]	Squirrel Wood: 	autoreturn 1 and the problem will solve itself
[16:44]	Squirrel Wood: 	and sim performance will be almost instantly restored
[16:44]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hahahaha
[16:44]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah, all these prims are bogging down the sim!
[16:44]	Jacek Antonelli: 	And avatars, too. Let's get rid of all that
[16:44]	McCabe Maxsted: 	squirrel's SL™ lag cure > simple keyboard shorcut! CTRL-Q!
[16:44]	StarSong Bright: 	grins
[16:44]	Squirrel Wood: 	all those prims are getting in my way. I just want to move through the sim in a straight line.
[16:45]	Geneko Nemeth is disappointed that all he founds is a Godmodded Linden's sandbox. 	Geneko Nemeth is disappointed that all he founds is a Godmodded Linden's sandbox.
[16:45]	Squirrel Wood: 	*flips grid wide object return switch and watched the asset server die*
[16:45]	McCabe Maxsted: 	HAHAHA
[16:45]	McCabe Maxsted: 	oh god
[16:45]	McCabe Maxsted: 	can you imagine how evil that would be?
[16:46]	Squirrel Wood: 	^^
[16:46]	Squirrel Wood: 	*blogs on the linden blog* We have recently improved sim performance greatly. No more lag on the sims at all!
[16:46]	StarSong Bright: 	it happend on the sim next to me... a melicious ex member of the group decided she didnt like the new sim and flattened it, raising the land up to eat everyting on the ground and returning the rest.. a real mess
[16:47]	Charlette Proto: 	you should see when chat comes out of every object in grey-goo and the viewer just seazes up so that even AR is next to impossible
[16:47]	Squirrel Wood: 	star.. rollback in that case
[16:47]	StarSong Bright: 	yes they did but total panic ensued for about 15 mins until people got their wits about them
[16:47]	Squirrel Wood: 	I would assume the culprit has been punisched accordingly
[16:47]	Squirrel Wood: 	punished...
[16:48]	StarSong Bright: 	karma heh
[16:48]	Squirrel Wood: 	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRlUD0tb9z4&fmt=18 ^^
[16:49]	StarSong Bright: 	and speaking of return all one of my renters is being griefed with prims lol as we speak....
[16:49]	StarSong Bright: 	excuse me
[16:49]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Sigh~ Greifers.
[16:49]	McCabe Maxsted: 	goodluck with that
[16:49]	Squirrel Wood: 	griefers... can't really do much anymore these days
[16:49]	StarSong Bright: 	waves see you all next week
[16:50]	Squirrel Wood: 	their crap is cleaned up in less than 10 seconds ^^
[16:50]	McCabe Maxsted waves :) 	McCabe Maxsted waves :)
[16:50]	Squirrel Wood: 	including an estate ban
[16:50]	Squirrel Wood: 	watching them set up their stuff and then return and ban just as they are about to unleash it.... priceless ^^
[16:51]	Charlette Proto: 	one other thing about griefers, they rez on the simlines - can this be stopped?
[16:51]	Charlette Proto: 	or shall i ask Andrew about this later
[16:51]	Squirrel Wood: 	might want to ask Andrew
[16:52]	Squirrel Wood: 	there IS a bug with Havok4 and No Object Entry
[16:52]	Squirrel Wood: 	that somethimes that set flag is sort of ignored
[16:52]	McCabe Maxsted: 	the linking bug?
[16:53]	Charlette Proto: 	a sim problem not the viewer I thought
[16:53]	Charlette Proto: 	I'm sick of physical prims crashing korea twice a day
[16:54]	Squirrel Wood: 	disable collisions.
[16:54]	Squirrel Wood: 	problem instantly solved
[16:54]	Charlette Proto: 	I don't run Korea
[16:55]	Charlette Proto: 	I can't change a thing
[16:56]	Charlette Proto: 	OK guys/girls, I'll see you next week
[16:56]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Take care Charlette
[16:57]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Cyu Charlette
[16:57]	McCabe Maxsted: 	see ya later!
[16:57]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Andrew in 3 mins
[16:58]	Charlette Proto: 	yes Morg trying to get the hUD up, always forget to LM
[16:58]	Charlette Proto: 	got it
[16:58]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hehe
[16:58]	Charlette Proto: 	c u there
[16:58]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yep, ta ta
[16:58]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, gonna head out. See you next week, everyone