Mesh/Archive/2011-05-16

Agenda:
# I'm seeing alt-click (alt-zoom) weird behaviour in Mesh Development builds. In Mesh Dev group chat I got confirmed others see this as well. Is this known / already reported in JIRA / being worked on? (I couldn't verify this myself yet) --oobscure 04:14, 16 May 2011 (PDT)
# Can you give us an update on your recent progress and what your current priorities are? [Vivienne Daguerre]
# Is there anything in particular you need us to test? [Vivienne Daguerre]
==Attendees List==
*Ariel Erlanger (ariel.erlanger)
*Asha (ashasekayi.ra)
*draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam)
*Drongle McMahon (drongle.mcmahon)
*Falcon Linden (falcon.linden)
*Œ•œÄŒ±œÑŒØŒ± ŒöŒ±ŒªŒªŒπœÉœÑœé (hypatia.callisto)
*Imaze Rhiano (imaze.rhiano)
*Jira Helper (jira.helper)
*Moy (moy.loon)
*Nyx Linden (nyx.linden)
*Patnad RezzMe (patnad.babii)
*Reed (reed.steamroller)
*robert Foxchase (robert.foxchase)
*davep (runitai.linden)
*Rusalka Writer (rusalka.writer)
*Second Life (second.life)
*Skygirl Kline (skygirl.kline)
*And all i got was this lousy DN (tankmaster.finesmith)
*Vir Linden (vir.linden)
*Vivienne Daguerre (vivienne.daguerre)
*Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)
==Transcript for Monday May 16, 2011==
[12:07]	Rusalka Writer 	Aloha.
[12:07]	Nyx Linden 	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation,_Mesh_Import,_Scripting_User_Group
[12:08]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Hello Nyx
[12:08]	davep (runitai.linden) 	yay, short agenda
[12:08]	Nyx Linden 	greetings all, sorry I'm late, had another meeting run over
[12:08]	Rusalka Writer 	Are there any jiras about odd camera movement?
[12:09]	Moy (moy.loon) 	Like when it jitters up and down?
[12:09]	Nyx Linden 	first topic: "I'm seeing alt-click (alt-zoom) weird behaviour in Mesh Development builds. In Mesh Dev group chat I got confirmed others see this as well. Is this known / already reported in JIRA / being worked on? (I couldn't verify this myself yet) --oobscure 04:14, 16 May 2011 (PDT) "
[12:09]	davep (runitai.linden) 	define "weird"
[12:09]	Rusalka Writer 	Panning across the distance, it will suddenly zoom in on something.
[12:10]	Rusalka Writer 	Like it leaps across the sim to something that interests it.
[12:10]	Reed (reed.steamroller) 	weird
[12:10]	Reed (reed.steamroller) 	=
[12:10]	Rusalka Writer 	Very.
[12:10]	Reed (reed.steamroller) 	strange
[12:10]	davep (runitai.linden) 	sounds like a broken raycast
[12:10]	Rusalka Writer 	Disorienting.
[12:10]	draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam) 	oh thats the raycast hitting a surface normal it doesnt like i thought
[12:10]	davep (runitai.linden) 	going to need a repro
[12:10]	draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam) 	yeah
[12:10]	Rusalka Writer 	Yay, I found something that exists.
[12:11]	Nyx Linden 	if there isn't a jira for that yet there should be :)
[12:11]	Nyx Linden 	<hint hint>
[12:11]	Rusalka Writer 	Noted.
[12:12]	davep (runitai.linden) 	does it only happen for objects larger than 10m?
[12:12]	Nyx Linden 	something we definitely should follow up on - thanks for letting us know!
[12:12]	Rusalka Writer 	I've noticed it on large objects, but then I only just stumbled on it flying across the grid. Sim-scale cam.
[12:13]	draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam) 	it also happens on really twisted prims
[12:13]	draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam) 	its an old issue really
[12:13]	davep (runitai.linden) 	ok, cool, thanks for the heads up on that
[12:13]	Moy (moy.loon) 	If it's the one, where it thinks you're over an object, and you alt-cam on it, but the ray doesn't hit the prim you're expecting, it'll go until it hits something else
[12:14]	Moy (moy.loon) 	And, it usually will either go as far as it can (the renderfarclip distance), or an object behind of it
[12:14]	Rusalka Writer 	Sounds like it.
[12:14]	robert Foxchase 	are mesh upload on main grid a long way off?
[12:14]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "Can you give us an update on your recent progress and what your current priorities are? [Vivienne Daguerre] "
[12:15]	davep (runitai.linden) 	still working on the merge to viewer-development, unfortunately
[12:15]	davep (runitai.linden) 	and working on mac issues WRT the merge
[12:15]	Rusalka Writer 	Mac people give thanks.
[12:15]	davep (runitai.linden) 	just out of curiosity, does anyone here have an ATI mac that can run shadows?
[12:16]	Œ•œÄŒ±œÑŒØŒ± ŒöŒ±ŒªŒªŒπœÉœÑœé (hypatia.callisto) 	I know someone who does, but I am not one of them :)
[12:16]	Nyx Linden 	related to next topic "Is there anything in particular you need us to test? [Vivienne Daguerre] " :)
[12:16]	Rusalka Writer 	I've never managed shadows.
[12:16]	Œ•œÄŒ±œÑŒØŒ± ŒöŒ±ŒªŒªŒπœÉœÑœé (hypatia.callisto) 	Of course, getting him to run a v2 viewer might be hard to do :D
[12:17]	Nyx Linden 	(feel free to add topics in the background while we're discussing this btw - short agenda this week)
[12:18]	Drongle McMahon 	Oh dear. Everyone's torsos keep inverting.
[12:18]	davep (runitai.linden) 	ok, the next step for the merge will probably be to disable shadows for all ATI mac
[12:18]	Second Life 	No room to sit here, try another spot.
[12:18]	davep (runitai.linden) 	right now, enabling shadows on ATI mac causes a complete system freeze on every system we've tested
[12:18]	Second Life 	No room to sit here, try another spot.
[12:18]	Rusalka Writer 	Beauty.
[12:18]	Œ•œÄŒ±œÑŒØŒ± ŒöŒ±ŒªŒªŒπœÉœÑœé (hypatia.callisto) 	even mac pros?
[12:18]	davep (runitai.linden) 	so the plan is to disable them until such time as we can make them work
[12:19]	Œ•œÄŒ±œÑŒØŒ± ŒöŒ±ŒªŒªŒπœÉœÑœé (hypatia.callisto) 	okay
[12:19]	Nyx Linden 	need moar topics :)
[12:19]	robert Foxchase 	when weariing a mesh av you'd still be able to wear prims as well at the same time right?
[12:19]	davep (runitai.linden) 	watch STORM-1210 for status updates on the merge
[12:19]	Jira Helper 	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-1210
[12:19]	Jira Helper 	[#STORM-1210] Shining team sidebranch merge into trunk for mesh technology, SSE2, deferred rendering
[12:19]	Œ•œÄŒ±œÑŒØŒ± ŒöŒ±ŒªŒªŒπœÉœÑœé (hypatia.callisto) 	I saw in the agenda last week that the format is going to change, is there any ETA on that yet?
[12:20]	Œ•œÄŒ±œÑŒØŒ± ŒöŒ±ŒªŒªŒπœÉœÑœé (hypatia.callisto) 	well, archive of the chat last week
[12:20]	davep (runitai.linden) 	the viewer work is done, and the simulator verifier is working, but we're blocked on a new upload path for testing
[12:20]	davep (runitai.linden) 	so we've been testing the new format by manually running test objects through the verifier
[12:21]	Œ•œÄŒ±œÑŒØŒ± ŒöŒ±ŒªŒªŒπœÉœÑœé (hypatia.callisto) 	okay
[12:22]	Ariel Erlanger 	wait, new format. are COLLADA files going away to be replaced with something else?
[12:22]	Œ•œÄŒ±œÑŒØŒ± ŒöŒ±ŒªŒªŒπœÉœÑœé (hypatia.callisto) 	No (In)
[12:22]	Œ•œÄŒ±œÑŒØŒ± ŒöŒ±ŒªŒªŒπœÉœÑœé (hypatia.callisto) 	its the internal format that is changing
[12:22]	Nyx Linden 	internal format change, not input format change :)
[12:22]	Ariel Erlanger 	ah gotcha
[12:22]	Ariel Erlanger 	^^
[12:22]	Ariel Erlanger 	withdrawn!
[12:22]	davep (runitai.linden) 	right, so the change will invalidate all currently rezzed meshes, you'll need to upload again
[12:22]	Rusalka Writer 	Here's the camera bug, btw: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/CTS-580
[12:23]	Nyx Linden 	whoo thanks!
[12:23]	davep (runitai.linden) 	er, not currently rezzed, all uploaded meshes (is not rezzed Currently, all uploaded Meshes)
[12:23]	Rusalka Writer 	Don't want to forget.
[12:23]	davep (runitai.linden) 	so, even stuff in your inventory
[12:23]	Rusalka Writer 	Oooh, inventory death.
[12:23]	Rusalka Writer 	I had a pony in there, you know.
[12:23]	robert Foxchase 	you would be able to wear not just a mesh but a sculpt or prim right?
[12:24]	Rusalka Writer 	Yes, you can wear mesh with prims and sculpts.
[12:24]	Drongle McMahon 	So we can all get nice new clean inventories.
[12:24]	robert Foxchase 	at the same time
[12:24]	Nyx Linden 	Robert - you should be able to wear meshes and prims at the same time
[12:24]	robert Foxchase 	ok thanks
[12:24]	Patnad RezzMe (patnad.babii) 	what about the charges and stuff as this been worked on?
[12:24]	Imaze Rhiano 	sooo... that is why I am cloud?
[12:24]	robert Foxchase 	someone asked me so I thought I'd ask
[12:24]	Rusalka Writer 	You're not to me.
[12:24]	Nyx Linden 	upload fees aren't finalized yet - we'll let you know when they are
[12:24]	Rusalka Writer 	Turn on hardware skinning in your preference.
[12:25]	Rusalka Writer 	Is that what it's called?
[12:25]	Imaze Rhiano 	hardware skinning is on
[12:25]	Rusalka Writer 	Hmmm... (Hmmm ...)
[12:25]	Nyx Linden 	anyone have more topics, or should we wrap this up early?
[12:25]	Vivienne Daguerre 	I noticed something when making some non-rigged shoes... the mirror in the build window no longer works. I had to mirror the shoe in ZBrush and upload the mirrored mesh a second time for the other shoe.
[12:26]	Nyx Linden 	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation,_Mesh_Import,_Scripting_User_Group
[12:26]	Vivienne Daguerre 	I don't know if you are aware of that
[12:26]	Imaze Rhiano 	when we get your bear, nyx?
[12:26]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	They took out mirror on mesh a while back.
[12:26]	Œ•œÄŒ±œÑŒØŒ± ŒöŒ±ŒªŒªŒπœÉœÑœé (hypatia.callisto) 	yeah that is just for sculpts
[12:26]	Vivienne Daguerre 	/me smiles...
[12:26]	Vivienne Daguerre 	ah, ok... and the slow girl catches up
[12:27]	Reed (reed.steamroller) 	are we being penalized for using predefined LoD as opposed to the auto-generated LoD provided by the viewer?
[12:27]	Rusalka Writer 	I never use it on sculpties because so many people are on Viewer 1.
[12:27]	Nyx Linden 	hand-tuned LOD is generally better than auto-generated :)
[12:27]	Nyx Linden 	most important factor is how much each level is simplified compared to the previous
[12:28]	Reed (reed.steamroller) 	because, I've setup models with correct LoD instead of using the LoD generator thingy, and almost as a rule my stuff is more prim costly that way
[12:28]	Reed (reed.steamroller) 	which sort of sucks
[12:28]	Nyx Linden 	how much are you simplifying each level?
[12:28]	Drongle McMahon 	I bet they look better though, Reed.
[12:28]	Reed (reed.steamroller) 	ok now i'm confused
[12:31]	Reed (reed.steamroller) 	lol
[12:32]	Reed (reed.steamroller) 	i guess me talking crashed teh sim
[12:32]	Reed (reed.steamroller) 	anyway, explain this to me
[12:32]	Rusalka Writer 	Not just me, then?
[12:33]	Reed (reed.steamroller) 	even though every LoD is > 1/2 the verts/tris of the previous level, i still need to do simplification
[12:33]	Drongle McMahon 	The default is 1/4
[12:33]	Reed (reed.steamroller) 	1/4
[12:34]	Reed (reed.steamroller) 	holy crap
[12:34]	Nyx Linden 	hey guys, sorry about that
[12:34]	robert Foxchase 	happens
[12:34]	And all i got was this lousy DN (tankmaster.finesmith)	well that was... fun
[12:34]	Rusalka Writer 	Who kicked the surge suppressor?
[12:34]	Œ•œÄŒ±œÑŒØŒ± ŒöŒ±ŒªŒªŒπœÉœÑœé (hypatia.callisto) 	well I was going to ask about two sided rendering of meshes (when you only really have one side) for things like tree leaves
[12:34]	robert Foxchase 	:)
[12:35]	Rusalka Writer 	I've done sandwiched one-side meshes.
[12:35]	Œ•œÄŒ±œÑŒØŒ± ŒöŒ±ŒªŒªŒπœÉœÑœé (hypatia.callisto) 	then I was disconnected :)
[12:35]	Œ•œÄŒ±œÑŒØŒ± ŒöŒ±ŒªŒªŒπœÉœÑœé (hypatia.callisto) 	that doubles your vertex count
[12:35]	Rusalka Writer 	Since it sounds like we won't see two-sided any time soon.
[12:35]	Rusalka Writer 	Right.
[12:36]	Rusalka Writer 	I'd vote for two-sided, of course.
[12:36]	Rusalka Writer 	But I think it
[12:36]	Rusalka Writer 	it's been shot down.
[12:36]	Rusalka Writer 	Echo....
[12:36]	Œ•œÄŒ±œÑŒØŒ± ŒöŒ±ŒªŒªŒπœÉœÑœé (hypatia.callisto) 	wasnt sure if someone suggested it before, its a feature in just about every other engine I use
[12:36]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	I thought they said they'd look at it when materials come.
[12:37]	Rusalka Writer 	I'd love it. Hunting down reversed normals is a pain.
[12:37]	Ariel Erlanger 	i'm not sure if opengl supports two sided meshes natively for single tringles (as opposed to the whole scene)
[12:37]	Œ•œÄŒ±œÑŒØŒ± ŒöŒ±ŒªŒªŒπœÉœÑœé (hypatia.callisto) 	its not for reversed normals
[12:37]	Œ•œÄŒ±œÑŒØŒ± ŒöŒ±ŒªŒªŒπœÉœÑœé (hypatia.callisto) 	its for things like a tree shader
[12:37]	Drongle McMahon 	I thought the problem was anticipation of people using two sides when they didn't need them.
[12:37]	Rusalka Writer 	No, but it would help there, too.
[12:37]	Falcon Linden 	By the way, here's some physics news:
[12:37]	Œ•œÄŒ±œÑŒØŒ± ŒöŒ±ŒªŒªŒπœÉœÑœé (hypatia.callisto) 	I prefer to get my normals right :)
[12:37]	Falcon Linden 	Make sure your physics meshes have consistent counter-clockwise winding
[12:38]	Drongle McMahon 	Ah Physics new :-)
[12:38]	Falcon Linden 	(for best performance)
[12:38]	Drongle McMahon 	What does that mean?
[12:38]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	counter-clockwise winding?
[12:38]	Œ•œÄŒ±œÑŒØŒ± ŒöŒ±ŒªŒªŒπœÉœÑœé (hypatia.callisto) 	thanks Falcon
[12:38]	Moy (moy.loon) 	Are they one-sided tris now?
[12:38]	Falcon Linden 	no, they'll collide from both sides, but we need to know the winding to generate correct normals at the edges
[12:38]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Does that refer to the order pf the indices?
[12:39]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	*of
[12:39]	Moy (moy.loon) 	Ah
[12:39]	Falcon Linden 	yes, Asha
[12:39]	Moy (moy.loon) 	So, that means the "random normals" thing is fixed? ;)
[12:39]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Ah ok
[12:39]	Falcon Linden 	Moy: should be improved, depending on what you're referring to
[12:39]	Moy (moy.loon) 	What about on normal prims? for raycasting against?
[12:39]	Falcon Linden 	no change to normal prims
[12:39]	Nyx Linden 	sounds like there are two different conversations going on here, and they're colliding with each other :)
[12:40]	Drongle McMahon 	I still don't know what counter-clockwise winding is :-(
[12:40]	Falcon Linden 	To clarify, we don't support double sided triangles for render, but all physics triangles are double sided
[12:40]	Ariel Erlanger 	actually i sort of wonder, as long as we're adding agenda items, do meshes display in opengl just by rendering each triangle seperately? or is there an optimization step to try to make strips out of them?
[12:41]	Œ•œÄŒ±œÑŒØŒ± ŒöŒ±ŒªŒªŒπœÉœÑœé (hypatia.callisto) 	that's going to mean I still use sculpts for tree leaves :)
[12:41]	Moy (moy.loon) 	VBOs of verts, normals, and indicies (VBO of green, normals, and Indicies)
[12:41]	davep (runitai.linden) 	Ariel: we don't use triangle strips as they're not general purpose
[12:41]	Nyx Linden 	or just create a second triangle with a flipped normal Hypatia :)
[12:41]	davep (runitai.linden) 	we DO however optimize triangle index arrays for cache coherency
[12:41]	Œ•œÄŒ±œÑŒØŒ± ŒöŒ±ŒªŒªŒπœÉœÑœé (hypatia.callisto) 	cheaper to use sculpts
[12:42]	Œ•œÄŒ±œÑŒØŒ± ŒöŒ±ŒªŒªŒπœÉœÑœé (hypatia.callisto) 	I can use one or two sculpts and do all the leaves :)
[12:42]	Ariel Erlanger 	davep: ok thank you!
[12:43]	Moy (moy.loon) 	Sculpts don't look as good though Hypatia, Because you have poor normals, poor UVs, and poor precision
[12:43]	Nyx Linden 	and poor LOD on sculpts
[12:43]	Œ•œÄŒ±œÑŒØŒ± ŒöŒ±ŒªŒªŒπœÉœÑœé (hypatia.callisto) 	yeah, but people dont care, they want low prim
[12:43]	Rusalka Writer 	And take time to rez.
[12:43]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Some people care.
[12:43]	Falcon Linden 	Apparently we'll ensure correct winding in the viewer without user intervention as long as winding is consistent (which you'll know if you can see the physics mesh properly in the preview)
[12:43]	davep (runitai.linden) 	actually did two implementations -- triangle strips and cache optimized lists
[12:43]	davep (runitai.linden) 	cache optimized lists was faster
[12:43]	Rusalka Writer 	Some day our prim counts will come...
[12:43]	Moy (moy.loon) 	You can make better looking things, with low poly mesh, and decent texture work, than you can with loads of sculpties
[12:44]	Œ•œÄŒ±œÑŒØŒ± ŒöŒ±ŒªŒªŒπœÉœÑœé (hypatia.callisto) 	its not low poly if you have to duplicate all the faces :)
[12:44]	Rusalka Writer 	Go to a busy sim and wait for the sculpties to rez. Bring a sandwich.
[12:44]	Nyx Linden 	any other topics we need to cover or should we wrap up early?
[12:44]	davep (runitai.linden) 	hypatia: some day we'll add a check box for "double sided"
[12:44]	Falcon Linden 	You should be able to make leaves with 4 single-sided tris
[12:44]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	That depends how many faces you have in total.
[12:44]	davep (runitai.linden) 	but not today
[12:44]	Œ•œÄŒ±œÑŒØŒ± ŒöŒ±ŒªŒªŒπœÉœÑœé (hypatia.callisto) 	thanks dave :)
[12:44]	Rusalka Writer 	Prim counts? ARC?
[12:44]	Falcon Linden 	Or two, really...depending on shape/size...
[12:44]	Œ•œÄŒ±œÑŒØŒ± ŒöŒ±ŒªŒªŒπœÉœÑœé (hypatia.callisto) 	someday is better than no :)
[12:45]	Nyx Linden 	Still working on ARC Rusaika, needs some more time to brew :)
[12:45]	Rusalka Writer 	Groovy.
[12:45]	Rusalka Writer 	Ponies?
[12:45]	Rusalka Writer 	When do our inventories get wiped?
[12:45]	Drongle McMahon 	Falcon, can you make a wiki page telling us how to make consistent counter-clockwise winding?
[12:45]	Nyx Linden 	inventories don't get wiped, the meshes just will fail to rez
[12:45]	Rusalka Writer 	Ah.
[12:45]	davep (runitai.linden) 	and we'll let you know when we know
[12:46]	Rusalka Writer 	Cool.
[12:46]	Moy (moy.loon) 	I would assume most collada exporters will do it fine, aslong as all of your normals are facing the right way
[12:47]	Falcon Linden 	Exactly, Moy. Just make sure the normals are facing the right way
[12:47]	Œ•œÄŒ±œÑŒØŒ± ŒöŒ±ŒªŒªŒπœÉœÑœé (hypatia.callisto) 	I havent had normal problems at all with mesh, guess its my application
[12:47]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	That's easy enough.
[12:48]	Œ•œÄŒ±œÑŒØŒ± ŒöŒ±ŒªŒªŒπœÉœÑœé (hypatia.callisto) 	I uploaded some to test with the Opensim release, looked good there too :)
[12:49]	Rusalka Writer 	Any other issues?
[12:49]	Nyx Linden 	ok guys, we have another meeting to get to
[12:49]	Drongle McMahon 	Ah yues. I had some upload failures with plane physics pieces with inconsistent normals.
[12:50]	Œ•œÄŒ±œÑŒØŒ± ŒöŒ±ŒªŒªŒπœÉœÑœé (hypatia.callisto) 	thanks for the info :)
[12:50]	Nyx Linden 	thanks everyone for coming out!
[12:50]	Vivienne Daguerre 	bye all
[12:50]	Vir Linden 	bye
[12:50]	davep (runitai.linden) 	thanks guys
[12:50]	Falcon Linden 	Cheers'
[12:50]	robert Foxchase 	thanks
[12:50]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Adios Lindens
[12:50]	Skygirl Kline 	byes
[12:50]	Rusalka Writer 	Mahalo for the meeting.
[12:50]	Rusalka Writer 	Aloha!
[12:50]	Ariel Erlanger 	thanks again! see you next week.
[12:50]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	thank you Lindens.
[12:50]	And all i got was this lousy DN (tankmaster.finesmith)	tc everyone
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