Doc Team/2008-07-18

[13:54] Bry Bikcin: how are you sir
[13:55] You: I am well.
[13:55] You: Also, hello! Welcome to Documentation Office Hours
[13:55] Bry Bikcin: what does a guy have to do
[13:55] Bry Bikcin: to have his side of a story heard in a dispute
[13:56] You: That depends on the dispute, I think. Are you referring to this week's Knowledge Base Article of the Week?
[13:56] Bry Bikcin: yep
[13:56] Bry Bikcin: no one talked to me
[13:56] Bry Bikcin: before action was taken
[13:57] Bry Bikcin: if anyone was sucked into something
[13:57] Bry Bikcin: it was me
[13:57] You: I'm afraid I don't know the history behind your story, so I'm a little lost...
[13:57] You: What action was taken, and what were you "sucked into"?
[13:58] Bry Bikcin: me suspended AV
[13:58] Bry Bikcin: was asked to go help someone
[13:58] Bry Bikcin: and this some place was a club
[13:59] Bry Bikcin: and the lady was dancing
[13:59] Bry Bikcin: the gist of the problem is
[14:00] Bry Bikcin: most of his if not all of his bad behavior was in voice chat
[14:00] Bry Bikcin: but my major concern
[14:00] Bry Bikcin: was that no one even bothered to talk to me about it
[14:00] Bry Bikcin: and my appeal was turned down
[14:01] Bry Bikcin: with out presenting me with any meat of the complaint
[14:01] Bry Bikcin: to be honest
[14:01] Bry Bikcin: I can assure SL that I have no desire to ever associate with any of these people again
[14:02] Bry Bikcin: and fell like I was pulled in and set up by the dancer
[14:02] Bry Bikcin: who asked me to the club in the first place
[14:02] You: Bry, I don't have the ability to reverse any rulings, but based on our conversation I do have a suggestion.
[14:03] Bry Bikcin: I have opened a ticket
[14:03] Bry Bikcin: and reopened it
[14:03] Bry Bikcin: I have a very important meeting at 8 EDT
[14:03] You: Perhaps you should try re-submitting your appeal, but make sure you include *everything* about your side of the story. Make sure to be very clear about exactly what happened, particularly the part that got you banned, and your part in it.
[14:04] Bry Bikcin: and this suspension will mess that up
[14:04] You: From listening to your story, I still don't understand what happened that resulted in your suspension... If the GTeam also didn't understand what happened, they might not have had enough information to go through with your appeal.
[14:04] Bry Bikcin: I see a Harry Linden on the ticket
[14:05] Bry Bikcin: can you get him to talk with me
[14:06] You: I'm sorry, but Harry is not around right now. Directly contacting Lindens is not really the right way to solve problems, though... just make sure to be as clear as possible about what happened.
[14:07] You: Hi Becky, welcome back to Documentation Office Hours.
[14:07] Bry Bikcin: well with regards to the posted article
[14:07] Becky Pippen: Hi Jeremy, thanks. Hi Bry.
[14:07] WidgetHUD v1.1: Becky Pippen has pinged you.
[14:08] Bry Bikcin: not a very good system that lets club owners ensnare and provoke and play games
[14:08] Bry Bikcin: and worse if the appeal is we made out decision
[14:09] Bry Bikcin: but you do not get to know who or what was said or what actions were taken to to determine your guilt
[14:09] Bry Bikcin: or worse not at least getting the accuseded party side of things
[14:10] Bry Bikcin: seems totally onesided and something that can be used to hurt and abuse your citizens
[14:10] Bry Bikcin: but you have a good day sir
[14:10] You: Bry, I don't understand the specifics of your case. However, I would encourage you to visit the GTeam's office hours with your complaint... If our appeal system is not working properly, they're the ones who would most want to hear about it.
[14:10] Becky Pippen: they have office hours tomorrow, don't they?
[14:11] You: They may... let me check.
[14:11] Bry Bikcin: tomorrow is to late
[14:11] Bry Bikcin: but thanks
[14:11] Bry Bikcin: I will warn others
[14:11] You: Yes, GTeam has office hours tomorrow at 10am.
[14:11] Bry Bikcin: reports are decided upon by who reports first
[14:12] Bry Bikcin: hell of a way to run things
[14:12] Jeremy Linden sighs.
[14:12] Becky Pippen: :-( Sorry you have to deal with stuff like that.
[14:13] You: No worries. I just wish he could have been a little more expressive about what happened. It sounded like he thought someone made him do something he got banned for.
[14:14] Becky Pippen: he might have a reason for being vague
[14:14] Becky Pippen: (that's off the record, I hope?)
[14:15] You: That didn't escape me, though Residents need to realize that an appeal is not an instant get-out-of-jail-free card.
[14:15] You: If he was genuinely not at fault, though... that's what an appeal is for. I hope that gets resolved properly.
[14:16] Becky Pippen: Yeah. I hope something happens that makes him feel better :-)
[14:16] You: So anyway, what's new? Any new glossary terms or KB concerns?
[14:17] Becky Pippen: oh yes.... but I wasn't prepared and I don't remember what they were!
[14:17] Becky Pippen: how about you? Any exciting things?
[14:18] You: Not too much action on the KB this past week, aside from the continuing copy-editing. Jon is off this afternoon, so he can be a musical rock star.
[14:18] Becky Pippen: have you guys completed that technical accuracy review of all the articles?
[14:19] You: We're getting close... I think we may need to come up with a more efficient way to do it, next time.
[14:19] Becky Pippen: is there an easy way? hehe
[14:20] Gertie Packbiers: Hello Becky
[14:20] Becky Pippen: Hi Gertie
[14:20] Gertie Packbiers: Hi Jeremy
[14:20] WidgetHUD v1.1: Gertie Packbiers has pinged you.
[14:20] You: Hello Gertie. Welcome to Documentation Office Hours.
[14:20] Gertie Packbiers: I have a question don't know if this is the right place but it's the only place I can get to....
[14:20] You: Feel free to have a seat anywhere... It's just me and Becky so far; Jon's playing a musical show this afternoon :-)
[14:20] Gertie Packbiers: I tried to rez something earlier today
[14:21] Gertie Packbiers: oooo
[14:21] Gertie Packbiers: pardon
[14:21] Gertie Packbiers: lol
[14:21] Gertie Packbiers: Anyway I can tell they are ah resetting things or something today
[14:21] Gertie Packbiers: LOL
[14:22] Gertie Packbiers: so I tried to rez something and it said it couldn't rez it
[14:22] Gertie Packbiers: But the item is gone
[14:22] Gertie Packbiers: Just gone
[14:22] Gertie Packbiers: I tried clear cache and I tried reinstall sl
[14:22] Gertie Packbiers: Any other suggestions?
[14:22] You: Have you tried everything in https://support.secondlife.com/ics/support/default.asp?deptID=4417&task=knowledge&questionID=4578 ?
[14:23] Gertie Packbiers: Yeah
[14:23] You: Clearing the cache is the first step, and I think reinstalling Second Life might have covered more steps...
[14:23] Gertie Packbiers: It's not in lost in found
[14:23] Gertie Packbiers: It's not in world somewhere
[14:23] Gertie Packbiers: (checked prim count)
[14:23] You: Have you tried going back to the place where you tried to rez it?
[14:23] Gertie Packbiers: yeah
[14:23] Gertie Packbiers: It's not there
[14:24] You: Oh, even the prim count.... hm.
[14:24] Gertie Packbiers: Yeah
[14:24] Gertie Packbiers: Not in another object either
[14:24] You: Is there a chance that the object had a script that caused it to delete itself?
[14:24] Gertie Packbiers: There was no other object for it to be in
[14:24] Gertie Packbiers: hm shouldn't
[14:24] Gertie Packbiers: I've placed it and picked it up before with no issues
[14:24] Jeremy Linden has lost more than a few objects to "llDie();" :-)
[14:24] Gertie Packbiers: Yeah I lost an entire folder once
[14:24] Becky Pippen nods sadly
[14:25] Gertie Packbiers: I logged in it was gone
[14:25] Gertie Packbiers: the weird thing about it was...I was wearing something in it
[14:25] Gertie Packbiers: And it stayed on me til I took it off
[14:25] Gertie Packbiers: Then it was gone
[14:25] Gertie Packbiers: I have another weird one this week too btw but it's a saga
[14:25] Gertie Packbiers: lol
[14:25] Gertie Packbiers: I put on a no mod gown....I danced a while, tp
[14:26] Gertie Packbiers: tp several places
[14:26] Gertie Packbiers: No issues
[14:26] You: Hm. That's a peculiarity of the attachment system. Your attachments don't get saved until you take them off. So, say, if you changed your hair or something, and made a copy of it before you took it off, the copy would not have the changes.
[14:26] Gertie Packbiers: Then I tp home and am ruthed and the system parts of my gown are white not blue
[14:26] Gertie Packbiers: As before
[14:26] Gertie Packbiers: And nothing I do makes them turn blue again
[14:26] Gertie Packbiers: Give the dress back to maker
[14:26] Gertie Packbiers: It's blue for her
[14:26] Gertie Packbiers: She try on new copy
[14:26] Gertie Packbiers: It's blue
[14:26] Gertie Packbiers: give to me
[14:26] Gertie Packbiers: It's white
[14:27] You: Does she see it as blue on you?
[14:27] Gertie Packbiers: So we go through the entire thing again
[14:27] Gertie Packbiers: No everyone sees on me as white
[14:27] Gertie Packbiers: I hit ctrl alt r
[14:27] Gertie Packbiers: white
[14:27] Gertie Packbiers: relog
[14:27] Gertie Packbiers: White
[14:27] Gertie Packbiers: clear cache relog white
[14:27] Gertie Packbiers: then
[14:27] Gertie Packbiers: For grins and giggles
[14:27] Gertie Packbiers: I do mouse advanced character rebake
[14:27] Gertie Packbiers: Blue
[14:27] Gertie Packbiers: weird
[14:28] Gertie Packbiers: I relog
[14:28] Gertie Packbiers: White
[14:28] Gertie Packbiers: Ctrl alt r white
[14:28] Gertie Packbiers: mouse rebake and blue
[14:28] You: Hi DenRus. Welcome to Documentation Office Hours.
[14:28] Gertie Packbiers: yet in another program that uses ctrl alt r it works fine
[14:28] Gertie Packbiers: So it's not my keyboard
[14:28] Gertie Packbiers: LOL
[14:28] You: Have you reported this behavior in the Public Issue Tracker?
[14:28] Gertie Packbiers: Yeah
[14:28] Gertie Packbiers: and I talked to the alt of a Linden
[14:29] Gertie Packbiers: And engineer
[14:29] Gertie Packbiers: LOL
[14:29] Gertie Packbiers: He thought it interesting
[14:29] Gertie Packbiers: oh wait shhhh LOL Lindens would never have alts
[14:29] Gertie Packbiers giggles
[14:29] You: Hm. Well, I don't know anything about that, but this sort of buggy behavior is beyond my SL-fu :-)
[14:29] Gertie Packbiers: No serious he had an SL before he worked at LL
[14:29] Gertie Packbiers: xD
[14:29] Gertie Packbiers: sorry
[14:29] You: I did, too. Still do, in fact :-)
[14:30] You: I'm just not an engineer :-P
[14:30] Gertie Packbiers: He doesn't really sign on it much anymore but he still gets messages via email
[14:30] Gertie Packbiers: lol
[14:30] Gertie Packbiers: Well, I think it was some weird glitching
[14:30] Gertie Packbiers: which happens
[14:30] Gertie Packbiers: And I think my item disappeared today because of reset
[14:30] Gertie Packbiers: LOL
[14:31] You: At any rate, I'm afraid I don't know how to fix your problem. I specialize in how Second Life is supposed to work, moreso than what happens when something goes wrong.
[14:31] Gertie Packbiers: hm
[14:31] Gertie Packbiers: Well, if you had any idea how to recover that item I would be a happy girl
[14:32] Gertie Packbiers: It's a table on which I put $800L worth of purchased food dispensing trays
[14:32] Gertie Packbiers: I then highlighted them all and took into my inventory as a unit
[14:32] Gertie Packbiers: Poof gone
[14:32] Gertie Packbiers: lol
[14:32] You: Could it be a coalesced object?
[14:32] Gertie Packbiers: hm
[14:33] Gertie Packbiers: I'm just thinking yes it is a coalesced object because I coalesced 'd it
[14:33] Gertie Packbiers: lol
[14:33] You: It would be named the same as the last object you selected in the group, and it would have a slightly different icon in your inventory.
[14:33] Gertie Packbiers: Yup
[14:34] Gertie Packbiers: And so it was when I went to rez it
[14:34] You: Ah, and THEN it disappeared, I see.
[14:34] Gertie Packbiers: There is no item in my inventory where I took it from or in Lost and Found that could be it...I tried pulling stuff out in case
[14:34] Gertie Packbiers: I coalesced it and it was fine
[14:34] Gertie Packbiers: Used it that way many times
[14:34] You: Most of what I know about inventory recovery comes from that article I linked you to... In there, it says that items lost due to a Region reset are gone forever... I hope that's not what happened.
[14:35] Gertie Packbiers: hm
[14:35] Gertie Packbiers: I think it might be what happened actually
[14:35] You: The last thing I would suggest is to check your trash... sounds strange, but sometimes things end up in there.
[14:35] Gertie Packbiers: Because other things were reset
[14:35] Gertie Packbiers: Yeah I tried trash
[14:35] Gertie Packbiers: I rezed every item in it
[14:35] Gertie Packbiers: nada
[14:35] Gertie Packbiers: *sigh*
[14:36] Gertie Packbiers: I say I think the region reset because right after it happened things were back as they had been a couple hours earlier
[14:36] Gertie Packbiers: Like things I had moved were back where they started
[14:36] You: That sounds like a rollback, for sure.
[14:36] Gertie Packbiers: yeah
[14:36] Gertie Packbiers: That region has rolled back at least twice today in fact
[14:36] You: Sorry I can't be more help. I do documentation stuff, and I just happen to be a veteran Resident on the side. Sometimes that means I know the answers, sometimes not :-/
[14:36] Gertie Packbiers: It's like on the Matrix
[14:36] Gertie Packbiers: haha
[14:36] Gertie Packbiers: Things repeat
[14:37] Gertie Packbiers: Well, I understand
[14:37] Gertie Packbiers: I just thought it wouldn't hurt to ask
[14:37] Gertie Packbiers: I've had to kill a few things by resetting a server myself
[14:37] Gertie Packbiers: LOL
[14:37] Gertie Packbiers: Now if only you'd reset one day and all our linden balances would climb :P
[14:38] Gertie Packbiers giggles
[14:38] Becky Pippen: :-)
[14:38] You: Heh. It's possible that the I-World team could be of more help. I'm not sure exactly when their office hours are, but I'll check.
[14:38] Gertie Packbiers: hm ok
[14:38] Gertie Packbiers: Thank you for doing that but I sorta suspect lost is lost
[14:38] Gertie Packbiers: hm
[14:38] Gertie Packbiers: And anyways now I'm doing all the talking
[14:38] Gertie Packbiers: Hi becky
[14:38] Gertie Packbiers: lol
[14:38] Gertie Packbiers: I think it's your turn
[14:39] Becky Pippen: sorry about that experience :-(
[14:39] Gertie Packbiers: LOL eh it's part of the ah...ambiance
[14:39] Gertie Packbiers giggles
[14:39] You: For the moment, the wiki says Kate has I-World office hours on Wednesdays from 5-6pm
[14:39] Gertie Packbiers nods
[14:39] Gertie Packbiers: thanks
[14:40] Gertie Packbiers: So now that I have whined....
[14:40] Gertie Packbiers: Hi Jeremy Linden
[14:40] WidgetHUD v1.1: Gertie Packbiers has pinged you.
[14:40] Gertie Packbiers: I'm Gertie, pleased to meet you
[14:40] Gertie Packbiers: lol
[14:40] You: Hi Gertie. Welcome to *Documentation* Office Hours :-)
[14:40] You: Got any gripes or suggestions for the Knowledge Base?
[14:41] Gertie Packbiers: Actually, yes I do
[14:41] Gertie Packbiers: Any chance of a blog and / or knowledge base warning about scamers asking for a lend of lindens?
[14:42] Gertie Packbiers: Recently in a group I am in we had someone you know...hang out..make friends...ask for loans of reasonably small amounts of lindens...then poof LOL
[14:42] Gertie Packbiers: (though her ability to beg money is to be commended)
[14:42] Gertie Packbiers: lol
[14:43] You: Hmm. Maybe, but I have to wonder how productive it would be for us to essentially tell everyone, "Trust nobody."
[14:43] Gertie Packbiers: Hm
[14:43] Gertie Packbiers: Well maybe
[14:43] Gertie Packbiers: I guess it wouldn't really be good pr for LL
[14:43] Gertie Packbiers: lol
[14:43] You: Really, it's about trust. Do you trust these other people enough to pay you back?
[14:44] Gertie Packbiers: Well, I didn't lend her any
[14:44] Gertie Packbiers: lol
[14:44] Becky Pippen: One of the NCI instructors begins every new resident Q&A session with a few words about trust and things like that... it might be helpful
[14:44] Gertie Packbiers: Oh indeed?
[14:44] You: We do actually have warnings in the KB about how Linden Lab will not reimburse you for Resident-to-Resident transactions or financial agreements.
[14:44] Gertie Packbiers: That's nice
[14:45] Gertie Packbiers: Hi Igel
[14:45] Gertie Packbiers waves
[14:45] You: Maybe an article about trust would not go astray. I'll add it as a suggestion to our list.
[14:45] Igel Hawks: Hi Gertie
[14:45] You: Hi Igel. Welcome to Documentation Office Hours.
[14:45] Becky Pippen: Hi Igel
[14:45] Igel Hawks: I sneaked in and had hope that nobody will notice it
[14:45] Gertie Packbiers: Ahahaha
[14:45] Igel Hawks: Hi @all
[14:45] Gertie Packbiers: Hey his bear squeeks!
[14:46] Gertie Packbiers: Oooooo
[14:46] Gertie Packbiers: Love that bear, Jeremy!
[14:46] WidgetHUD v1.1: Gertie Packbiers has pinged you.
[14:46] You: Thanks!
[14:46] Igel Hawks: The bear is great ;D
[14:46] Gertie Packbiers: -*big wide eyed doe look*- Any chance the Lindens still give bears?
[14:46] Gertie Packbiers: -*giggles*-
[14:47] Gertie Packbiers: <==Really just likes the squeeky
[14:47] Igel Hawks: Oh, would be wonderful *smiling*
[14:47] Gertie Packbiers giggles
[14:47] You: Oh, we give bears all the time.
[14:48] Gertie Packbiers: (sorry...facsinated with the squeek)
[14:48] Gertie Packbiers giggles
[14:48] You: ...when the inventory system is working correctly.
[14:48] Igel Hawks: May I have your bear please?
[14:48] Gertie Packbiers: Small things...small minds...all that
[14:48] Gertie Packbiers accepted your inventory offer.
[14:48] Gertie Packbiers: Ooo thanks!
[14:48] Igel Hawks accepted your inventory offer.
[14:48] Igel Hawks: Thanks!
[14:49] You: There is also a Knowledge Bear over behind the purple couch... he's our Documentation Team bear.
[14:49] Gertie Packbiers: I think a car just flew past
[14:49] Igel Hawks: My wife and me have a lill island near our home here we have a Bear exhibition LOL
[14:50] Gertie Packbiers: Ooo neat Igel
[14:50] Gertie Packbiers: I have a few bears
[14:50] Gertie Packbiers: None that squeek til now though
[14:50] Gertie Packbiers: -*giggles*-
[14:50] Igel Hawks: No.
[14:50] Igel Hawks: I like the squeek
[14:50] Gertie Packbiers eyes Jeremy and sneaks over to surreptitiously poke the bear again -.-
[14:50] WidgetHUD v1.1: Gertie Packbiers has pinged you.
[14:50] Gertie Packbiers: hehehe
[14:51] Gertie Packbiers: >.>
[14:51] Gertie Packbiers: <.<
[14:51] You: Some day, if he gets popular enough, I may have to mute my own bear.
[14:51] Becky Pippen: lol
[14:51] Igel Hawks: But back to trust: I mostlyexplain newbies the base of SL is trust and to be careful with giving trust
[14:51] Gertie Packbiers: -*whistles innocently and pretends to polish her halo*-
[14:51] Igel Hawks giggles and polishes her nails
[14:51] Gertie Packbiers: I think we should have a big party with everyone holding your bears and squeaking htem
[14:51] Gertie Packbiers: hahaha
[14:52] Gertie Packbiers: See if we can crash a sim that way
[14:52] Gertie Packbiers: -*giggles*-
[14:52] Igel Hawks: The most complicate thing is to find the balance of being careful and giving trust
[14:52] Gertie Packbiers: *sigh* yeah
[14:52] You: I like the idea of Second Life being built around trust. That's definitely true, as far as most social interactions are concerned.
[14:53] Gertie Packbiers: Aint nothing new in the world
[14:53] Time Minder: You have been online for 1 hours.
[14:53] Igel Hawks: Yeah, but in my explaination I always tell the newbies what makes SL so special often: Not even the time runs faster.
[14:54] Igel Hawks: The feelings and emotions often do the same
[14:55] Igel Hawks: So I give them the KB article of time and daytime in SL for better understanding
[14:56] You: That's been found to be true on the internet, even in text-only chats.
[14:56] Gertie Packbiers: LOL
[14:56] You: (Sorry, quick phone call. I'm still watching!)
[14:56] Gertie Packbiers: Too true
[14:57] Gertie Packbiers notes Jeremy is not watching AS closely and surreptitiously pokes the bear again ~ ~ ~
[14:57] WidgetHUD v1.1: Gertie Packbiers has pinged you.
[14:57] Igel Hawks: hihi
[14:58] Jeremy Linden gives Gertie a sideways look.
[14:58] Gertie Packbiers: I'm really hooked on that squeek
[14:58] You: Ok, I'm back!
[14:58] Gertie Packbiers: >.>
[14:58] Becky Pippen: wb
[14:58] Gertie Packbiers examines her nails
[14:59] You: But yes, as I was saying, trust and emotions do tend to falsely accelerate online, for whatever reason... It's been a constant issue for as long as I can remember.
[14:59] Igel Hawks: I examined the flying bullet behind Jeremy
[14:59] WidgetHUD v1.1: Igel Hawks has pinged you.
[14:59] You: That's doubly true, I suppose, in Second Life, where Linden dollars can easily become real dollars.
[14:59] Gertie Packbiers waits for the no nukes people to show up
[15:00] Igel Hawks: Yeah, that's true. In my opinion, it is not just accelerated often in SL, it's much deeper then in other online communities
[15:00] Gertie Packbiers: You know, I thought having voice would slow down the whole accelerating thing but it doesn't seem to have
[15:02] You: I don't claim to be a student of psychology, but I imagine Second Life makes it easier for us to project idealized images onto the people we're talking to. Their avatars are often good-looking, and from there the Halo Effect and make them also seem more trustworthy, intelligent, etc.
[15:02] Gertie Packbiers: I rather thought it was a symptom of projecting on others you know...what you wanted to believe. Easy in text only because of no visual cues and voice cues....but I guess that isn't it entirely.
[15:02] You: Please pretend I phrased that correctly.
[15:02] Gertie Packbiers: Well, you made sense to me
[15:03] You: Have any of your heard of the Daedalus Project?
[15:03] Igel Hawks: What you say is absolutely understandable, yeah
[15:03] Gertie Packbiers: Yes
[15:03] You: http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/
[15:03] You: Fascinating psychological reasearch into MMORPGs and online games.
[15:03] Becky Pippen: that looks interesting
[15:04] Igel Hawks: Oh, I bookmarked it...
[15:04] Igel Hawks: I will read it later....
[15:05] You: At any rate, I think our official time is up. Does anyone have any last questions or comments regarding Second Life documentation?
[15:05] Gertie Packbiers: Thanks again for the bears.
[15:05] Gertie Packbiers: -*eyes Jeremy*-
[15:05] Igel Hawks: Not yet. Will come when you have gone...
[15:05] You: You're welcome! If you come back next week, I bet Jon will give you his bear, too.
[15:05] Igel Hawks: Thanks for the bear, yeah :D
Category: Documentation Office Hours