Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.09.03

Simulator_User_Group
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== List of Speakers ==
Adamburp Adamczyk	Andrew Linden 	ANSI Soderstrom
Baker Linden 	Callak Skytower	Duckie Dickins
Ima Mechanique 	Kelly Linden 	Kennylex Luckless
Lucia Nightfire 	Mona Eberhardt 	Nalates Urriah
Petr Topaz 	Squirrel Wood 	TankMaster Finesmith
Whirly Fizzle 	 	
== Transcript ==
[12:01] Mona Eberhardt: Hi Andrew!
[12:01] Callak Skytower: Hello everyone!
[12:01] Andrew Linden: hello
[12:01] Petr Topaz: Thank you Mona
[12:01] Kelly Linden: hello
[12:01] Petr Topaz: Hi Andrew
[12:01] Adamburp Adamczyk: ayup and yoohoo
[12:02] Andrew Linden: Simon can't make it today
[12:02] Lucia Nightfire: ANSI, I think you have a script stuck in a loop or something, lol
[12:02] ANSI Soderstrom: hi
[12:02] ANSI Soderstrom: no, its a AO
[12:03] ANSI Soderstrom: you dont want to know the name from this anim
[12:03] Lucia Nightfire: an AO running 2.0+ ms?
[12:03] Kennylex Luckless: Hia, I has to find something match ANSI
[12:03] Andrew Linden: so I'll try to go over the server deploys this week
[12:03] TankMaster Finesmith: hey baker
[12:03] Mona Eberhardt: Hi Baker.
[12:03] Baker Linden: Hello everyone
[12:03] Adamburp Adamczyk: 'sup bakerino?
[12:03] Petr Topaz: Hi Baker
[12:04] Andrew Linden: It looks like all the RC's will get the same update this week
[12:04] Kennylex Luckless: Hello Baker and the rest.... and Andrew.
[12:05] Andrew Linden: And the main channel was updated with whatever was on the RC's this last week: some maintenance and bug fixes
[12:05] Callak Skytower: Hi Whirly Fizzle!
[12:05] Kelly Linden: Actually due to the holiday all server updates are bumped one day.
[12:05] Kelly Linden: So the main channel will get updated tomorrow and the RCs on Thursday.
[12:06] Andrew Linden: the only thing I contributed to the update going to the main channel was fixing a grief mode where really big objects could push avatars out of a the region.
[12:06] Lucia Nightfire: what specifically was taht change?
[12:06] Mona Eberhardt: Oh, that's good.
[12:06] Andrew Linden: oh right, thanks Kelly, the updates are going out one day late this week
[12:06] Lucia Nightfire: I notice faux rotating kfm megaprims don't knock people out of the sim anymroe, heh
[12:07] Andrew Linden: yeah, as Lucia mentioned... I was targeting those objects specifically
[12:07] Andrew Linden: that is, the faux rotating megaprims
[12:07] Mona Eberhardt: Andrew, any chance for a change in marketplace abuse report options?
[12:07] Andrew Linden: the physics engine "resolve interpenetrating objects" collision logic would kick in and push the avatars out of the very big objects
[12:08] Andrew Linden: we had some collision-bypass code there specifically for avatars, but it had been broken some time ago and I fixed it.
[12:08] Mona Eberhardt: It might be beyond the scope of these meetings, but it would help, especially with people who sell graphics/sim crashers (and use lame disclaimers like "don't use it for griefing").
[12:08] TankMaster Finesmith tests using his 65535m cube :P
[12:08] Adamburp Adamczyk: mona, don;t waste your time. I can writ ethe book on trying to ar mp stuff - not a convo for this place
[12:09] Mona Eberhardt: OK Adam.
[12:10] Andrew Linden: Mona, I'm more interested in coming up with technical fixes for the grief modes...
[12:10] Andrew Linden: hardening the server, basically
[12:10] Adamburp Adamczyk loks at the staff present ut points out, support are not interested, and I refuse to get on me soapbox
[12:10] ANSI Soderstrom: the agenda is not the agenda from today, isnt it ?
[12:10] Andrew Linden: ANSI, you're talking about the agenda on the wiki page for this user group?
[12:10] Lucia Nightfire: I'll be filing that parcel resource restrictions feature request sometime this week hopefully although I'm not sure how lengthy to make it as it could be quite long..and boring...
[12:10] Andrew Linden: probably not
[12:10] ANSI Soderstrom: yes sir
[12:11] Andrew Linden: yeah, I'm sure everything on that agenda is old
[12:11] ANSI Soderstrom: the last entry is very fresh
[12:12] Andrew Linden: I'll try to look it over later today and probably remove it -- I never look at the agenda before the meeting.
[12:12] Callak Skytower: I'm new here, can someone link me the referred to agenda?
[12:12] ANSI Soderstrom: makes sense
[12:12] Andrew Linden: I rely on you guys to just put the items on the table when it becomes open.
[12:12] ANSI Soderstrom: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Simulator_User_Group
[12:12] Lucia Nightfire: put your guns/cards/money on teh table everyone
[12:12] Callak Skytower: TY!
[12:13] ANSI Soderstrom: i want to say : BUG ! some LSL-Events are nt fired (or put in queue) while a script is in a loop
[12:13] Andrew Linden: Anyway, I think the RC update going out on thursday is...
[12:14] Andrew Linden: some web service maintenance being done by Monty Linden
[12:14] Andrew Linden: pretty minor config changes, but they didn't have another project on which to piggyback
[12:15] Andrew Linden: ok, that's all the news I've got
[12:15] ANSI Soderstrom: thanks
[12:16] Baker Linden: I'm finishing up group ban stuff -- well, by "finishing up" I mean "working on the last bits of UI hookups and validation checks on the back-end. It'll still be a bit before it's ready for RC, but it's coming close quickly!
[12:16] Baker Linden: that's all I got
[12:16] Andrew Linden: ok, table is open
[12:16] Lucia Nightfire: there a dev/beta viewer with those changes coming soon Baker?
[12:16] Kennylex Luckless: s it possible to get Substance Designer (textures) implementation in SL, with Substance Designer can you do complex textures that only take some few Kb on the server. http://www.allegorithmic.com/
[12:16] ANSI Soderstrom: news for the table : BUG ! some LSL-Events are nt fired (or put in queue) while a script is in a loop
[12:16] Kelly Linden: ANSI have you filed a jira for that bug?
[12:16] ANSI Soderstrom: no
[12:17] Andrew Linden is not familiar with Substance Designer
[12:17] Kennylex Luckless: Look in to it, it a sugestion for the futore.
[12:17] Kennylex Luckless: future
[12:17] ANSI Soderstrom: i ll write a jira for you @ kelly
[12:17] Kelly Linden: Thanks ansi
[12:18] Mona Eberhardt: Are you talking about procedural textures, Kenny? If yes, I wouldn't count on that. LL are locked-in with Kakadu (the JPG2000 developers), so it's unlikely we'll see that anytime soon.
[12:18] Object: Hello, Avatar!
[12:18] Ima Mechanique: Subsyance Designer appears to be a proprietry piece od software
[12:18] Mona Eberhardt: So's JPG2000, Ima. :/
[12:19] Ima Mechanique: JPEG2000 is more a library, not a whole software app
[12:19] Andrew Linden: I'll look at the videos later, but at a quick glance it appears to be a way to texture stuff faster using some material settings
[12:19] TankMaster Finesmith: /mewishe textures were saved in a lossless compression
[12:20] Andrew Linden: the JPEG2000 standard is open, no? but library implementations can be proprietary or closed
[12:20] Mona Eberhardt: Is Kakadu's implementation open?
[12:21] Andrew Linden: no Kakadu is closed, I believe
[12:21] TankMaster Finesmith: no, KDU is closed source
[12:21] Adamburp Adamczyk: wasn't kakadu one of the nutters in the hilles have eyes 2, 1977 version?
[12:21] Mona Eberhardt: At any rate, I do believe it'd be beneficial to provide support for procedural textures as well. Far smaller sizes.
[12:22] TankMaster Finesmith: self compilers cant use KDU when making their own builds unless they buy a license from kakadu
[12:22] Andrew Linden: yes Mona, it that would be an nice feature -- basically an advanced materials system
[12:22] Kennylex Luckless: Substance designer material 4096x4096 is generated faster for me than I can DL a 512x512 material now
[12:23] Andrew Linden: where you specify the material, with some parameter settings, and the system textures it for you
[12:24] Kennylex Luckless: Best is that LL can take pay afteer complexity of material, thet will make folk creatr less complex textures :-D
[12:24] Andrew Linden: Interestingly, in the very beginning of SL (before it was known as SL) we wanted to use Perlin noise for texture generation
[12:24] Andrew Linden: and material settings
[12:24] Kennylex Luckless: Perlin noise is the foundation of all textures :-)
[12:25] Duckie Dickins: what was SL called before it was SL? "Unnamed Project #1"?
[12:25] Adamburp Adamczyk: "laggy life"
[12:25] Andrew Linden: we called it "Linden World" for lack of a better name, but knew we wanted something else.
[12:25] Lucia Nightfire: Super Linden World
[12:25] Petr Topaz: lol
[12:26] Kennylex Luckless: SL 2.0 should be called Linden World :-)
[12:26] Mona Eberhardt: Of course, SL isn't inhabited by mustachio'ed plumbers.
[12:26] Lucia Nightfire: I bet to differe
[12:27] TankMaster Finesmith: sure it is
[12:27] Lucia Nightfire: marios inhabit the sandboxes on occasion heh
[12:27] Adamburp Adamczyk: what mona?
[12:27] Ima Mechanique: plumbers are *very* popular griefing textures ;-)
[12:28] Andrew Linden: We recently shipped a "materials" system, right? Mostly viewer-side.
[12:28] Andrew Linden: Or is that still in beta?
[12:29] TankMaster Finesmith: its shiped
[12:29] Kennylex Luckless: Materails is a bit odd
[12:29] Andrew Linden: As I recall it isn't really parametric like Substance Designer
[12:29] Andrew Linden: but allows you to specify detail and normal-map textures or something
[12:29] Kennylex Luckless: brightnes in diffuse alpha is according to me a bed idea.
[12:30] Kennylex Luckless: bad
[12:30] Baker Linden: Can't you have substance designer export the raw diffuse, spec and normal maps for use in SL?
[12:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[12:30] Kennylex Luckless: Then I can not do a window with glowing borders
[12:31] Andrew Linden: I'm sure substance designer could be used to generate textures for meshes that are built with other 3rd party modelling applications
[12:32] Andrew Linden: but it would be better to be able to use something like SD in SL on any object
[12:32] Nalates Urriah: Andrew, we now have diffuse, normal, and specular maps that we can use. Plus changes in how shiny works.
[12:32] Kennylex Luckless: I use SubDesigner to make texture, but it hard to get it right due to I has to put specular strengthe in a alpha layer
[12:32] Andrew Linden: and let the viewer compute the textures
[12:32] Baker Linden: substance designer puts spec in the diffuse alpha layer?
[12:33] Kennylex Luckless: I do not really know, it generates in client
[12:33] Baker Linden: ahh
[12:33] Kennylex Luckless: textures are not saved
[12:33] Baker Linden: oh, I see
[12:33] Kennylex Luckless: so risk for copubotting is little
[12:34] Kennylex Luckless: But, cuestion is, is it posible without break content.
[12:34] Kennylex Luckless: question
[12:34] Andrew Linden: yeah well... the SD texture params could easily be copied with a modified viewer
[12:34] Lucia Nightfire: anythign rendered could be copied/reverse engineered
[12:35] Andrew Linden: Kennylex, yes I think it is theoretically possible to use something like SD to enhance new content without breaking old content.
[12:35] Andrew Linden: It would be lots of wok.
[12:35] Baker Linden: Kenny, which program do you use? there's designer, bitmap 2 material, player
[12:35] Kennylex Luckless: Yes, it was therefor I did say "for the future"
[12:36] Kennylex Luckless: But it would be ful to see a test prodject.
[12:36] Kennylex Luckless: fun
[12:36] Andrew Linden: Something to consider for SL-2.0
[12:37] Kennylex Luckless: :-)
[12:37] Kennylex Luckless: or SL 2.1 Rc4
[12:37] TankMaster Finesmith: to come out in 2020? :P
[12:38] Andrew Linden: Right, it would be hard to make an SL-2.0 with all the features we ever wanted at first launch.
[12:38] Kennylex Luckless: Handgranade terraforming?
[12:39] Andrew Linden: Hehe
[12:39] Andrew Linden: You may laugh, but genage terraforming was kinda fun.
[12:39] Andrew Linden: grenade terraforming
[12:39] Kennylex Luckless: :-D
[12:39] TankMaster Finesmith: lol
[12:39] Whirly Fizzle: lol we can do that now. I have a terraforming bomb
[12:40] Lucia Nightfire: I know of a Linden that used them in a non-Governor Linden sandbox while in GM too, heh
[12:41] Andrew Linden: when you write software... you often don't get it right until the third rewrite
[12:41] TankMaster Finesmith: or 12th
[12:41] Mona Eberhardt: Seconded, Andrew.
[12:41] Andrew Linden: we never did a complete rewrite of SL... instead we've done overhauls and occasional rewrites of sub systems
[12:41] Duckie Dickins: so....SL 3.0 then.
[12:41] Nalates Urriah: No one want version 1.0 software
[12:41] Andrew Linden: all the while adding new features
[12:42] Andrew Linden: so SL is featureful... but has been written about 1.5 times
[12:42] Kennylex Luckless: I think it is that making SL so fun, it is not technical perfect, but social it is so fun.
[12:43] Lucia Nightfire: Anyone know why for the last two weeks in regions with no spare timing, all script time of attachments takes twice as long for their averages to drop over time?
[12:43] Andrew Linden does not know. Kelly?
[12:44] Kelly Linden: I can't think of anything that would cause that.
[12:44] Andrew Linden: What does that mean exactly? So if an attachment script were to spike its runtime... the relaxation of the measured runtime takes longer to decay?
[12:45] Lucia Nightfire: no spare time present is the onyl thing I see when I notice times takign forever to drop
[12:45] Kennylex Luckless: Btw, I has a riddle for you, "How to do a ban line no Linens can pass"?
[12:45] ANSI Soderstrom: lol
[12:45] ANSI Soderstrom: place a melon
[12:46] Duckie Dickins: or a hippo?
[12:46] Kennylex Luckless: It has a logical answer :-)
[12:46] Andrew Linden: "no spare time" means (I think) that something (not scripts) is taking up most of the server frame time, so scripts get only their bare minimum amount of time to run
[12:47] Andrew Linden: the thing taking up the server frame could be physics, avatar network traffic, or maybe other things
[12:47] Kelly Linden: No spare time means, usually, that not all scripts were run during the frame
[12:48] Lucia Nightfire: I'm noticing it onyl in regions with no spare time, and no excessive total timing
[12:48] Andrew Linden: that is a consequence of not having spare time, Kelly? or the definition of no spare time?
[12:48] Lucia Nightfire: I watch it in several sandboxes I admin all teh time and as of three releases ago, decay/drop is taking much longer in those regions
[12:48] Kelly Linden: it is possible that if the scripts run % is near 50% it might take 2x as long for script time to drop down
[12:48] Lucia Nightfire: I noticed it primarily with my own timing then saw everyone was doing it
[12:48] Kelly Linden: Spare time is the extra time at the end of the frame when *everything* has been done.
[12:49] Kelly Linden: including scripts
[12:49] Kelly Linden: If we finish all the scripts then there is some spare time, baring some nice coincidences on using exactly the available time to run all the scripts.
[12:49] Lucia Nightfire: and the benchmark is with attachments that haven't changed in months
[12:49] Mona Eberhardt: Andrew, is the recent texture thrashing issue server-related?
[12:50] TankMaster Finesmith: texture thrashing?
[12:50] Andrew Linden: Mona, I'm not familiar with the "recent texture thrashing issue". Could you elaborate on that?
[12:51] Whirly Fizzle: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-3472 & linked for texture thrashing issue
[12:51] Andrew Linden: Kennylex, I give up. How do you make ban lines that no Lindens can pass?
[12:51] Nalates Urriah: Texture thrashing, meaning reloading again and again, blurry, sharp, bblurry, sharp, etc
[12:51] Mona Eberhardt: It's this one: http://jira.phoenixviewer.com/browse/FIRE-10994
[12:51] Mona Eberhardt: And something similar is here: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MATBUG-355
[12:52] Nalates Urriah: There has been a big up tic in the number of people asking how to stop it in Answers and the forum.
[12:52] Mona Eberhardt: Tthe textures constantly reloading and alternating between blurred and rendered states. It mostly occurs in systems where the virtual address space is filling up and/or the VRAM (the dedicated memory of the graphics card) is getting full (for instance, on older graphics cards with 256MB of dedicated RAM or less). This results in textures getting discarded (the # textures discarded due to insufficient memory error message on your screen).
[12:52] Andrew Linden: Hrm... I don't know offhand whether that texture thrashing is a serer or viewer issue.
[12:52] Andrew Linden: I'll have to ask around.
[12:53] TankMaster Finesmith: its a viewer issue
[12:53] Mona Eberhardt: OK, then I think it'd be best to ask Oz. :/
[12:53] Andrew Linden: Mona, what is your draw distance set to?
[12:53] Mona Eberhardt: Right now, 128.
[12:53] Nalates Urriah: On the Mac there is a fix that mitigates the problem, it is viewer related and has to do with the Max VRAM setting.
[12:54] Whirly Fizzle: Appears to be viewer & it started when the SSA code changes went in. Those that suffer from it cany repro it on pre SSA viewers. However, thats not all cases. Some content will set it off on pre SSA viewers.
[12:54] Whirly Fizzle: *cant
[12:54] Mona Eberhardt: It really depends on what I need to do, Andrew. Sometimes I'm at 256, sometimes at 360.
[12:54] Andrew Linden: ok, if it is a viewer-side issue and is related to the shear number of textures in view you can test by dropping your draw distance down to 64 to see if it goes away
[12:54] Nalates Urriah: There are a couple of HUD's that set off. Removng those stops it.
[12:54] Mona Eberhardt: Are these specific HUDs, Nal?
[12:55] Whirly Fizzle: The Todleedoo avatar HUD is the one most complained about.
[12:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[12:55] Nalates Urriah: Yes... I don't have those HUD's so I can verify it. So, I haven't published names.
[12:55] Whirly Fizzle: I can't repro it when wearing that HUD though.
[12:55] Baker Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-3472? seems like a problem with the auto-blur of the camera, rather than thrashing. At least that's what I took away from the description
[12:56] Mona Eberhardt: I don't know which HUDs you guys are referring to, but the ones I have are a rather lightweight AO from a vendor that uses a 4-letter name that starts with "K", and the omnipresent hugger HUD.
[12:57] Nalates Urriah: Baker, I'm sure it is not a DoF problem as those experiencing it have DoF off
[12:57] Baker Linden: ahh, ok. I turn off DoF and I'm pretty fine, apart from some Z-fighting in the way distant area
[12:57] Nalates Urriah: These were some game HUD's that apparently made heavy ose 1024x1024 testures.
[12:58] Mona Eberhardt: Oh. No gaming HUDs on me... And I avoid 1MP textures as much as possible.
[12:58] Andrew Linden: If you type "CTRL + SHIFT + 3" you get some debug info about what textures are being loaded
[12:58] Baker Linden: well, stop using 1024x1024 textures for things where a 256x256 map would suffice :P
[12:58] Andrew Linden: I wonder what that looks like when you're seeing texture thrashing
[12:58] Mona Eberhardt: Heh, there are cases where even a 64x64 would suffice.
[12:59] Baker Linden: most cases :) or at least a few 64x64 textures
[12:59] Andrew Linden: the debug info shows whether the texture is being loaded form cache or downloaded from the servers
[12:59] TankMaster Finesmith: but baker, i want retina display eyes!
[12:59] Mona Eberhardt: It's simple, Andrew: the texture renders and becomes crystal clear. Then it gets blurry. Then it reloads and becomes clear again. And again. And again.
[12:59] Whirly Fizzle: Theres a certain mesh house that will cause texture threashing for pretty much everyone.
[12:59] Mona Eberhardt: It's basically a "10 GOTO 10" kind of thing.
[12:59] Kennylex Luckless: Oh, I has to test to do some 64x64 materials.
[12:59] Andrew Linden: yup, I understand the symptom
[12:59] Kennylex Luckless: Maybe for an anvil.
[13:00] Mona Eberhardt: Maybe we should sing the anvil song, Kenny?
[13:00] Whirly Fizzle: Try with this house https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-2514?focusedCommentId=378589&page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel#comment-378589 (if its still rezzed at the shop)
[13:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[13:00] Andrew Linden: Hrm... does someone have one of those magic wands?
[13:00] Whirly Fizzle: Its a killer lol
[13:00] Andrew Linden: cow
[13:00] Kennylex Luckless: Ansi, duck
[13:01] Lucia Nightfire: love that physics time
[13:01] ANSI Soderstrom: Lucia Nightfire is talking about "love"
[13:01] Lucia Nightfire: this is why pray Anne never uses pf in her cars, lol, as the grid isn't optimized for it
[13:01] Kennylex Luckless: l$
[13:01] Kennylex Luckless: $L
[13:02] ANSI Soderstrom: l4 ?
[13:02] ANSI Soderstrom: l$
[13:02] Andrew Linden has fond memories of being totally flabbergasted by the idea of the magic wand when it first showed up.
[13:02] ANSI Soderstrom: its hard in LSL to lower a "$"
[13:02] Kennylex Luckless: No falling Lindens today :-)
[13:02] ANSI Soderstrom: i get a 4
[13:02] Andrew Linden: I can't remember the name of the guy who built the first one...
[13:03] Squirrel Wood: I remember the times back when there was no mono and I got sims to run 4 million script instructions per second without crashing them ^^
[13:03] Andrew Linden: but I remember we broke his wand when we started implementing per-parcel temp-on-rez resource limitations
[13:03] Kelly Linden: ansi - let me know when you get that jira filed for the lsl bug.
[13:03] Andrew Linden: because some of his wand's effects used hundreds or thousands of prims
[13:04] ANSI Soderstrom: yes, iam writing still on a debug-script
[13:04] Kelly Linden: cool, thanks.
[13:04] Kelly Linden: I need to head out. o/
[13:04] ANSI Soderstrom: thanks to you @ kelly
[13:04] Mona Eberhardt: See you Kelly. Thank you!
[13:04] Andrew Linden: yup, thanks for coming
[13:04] Kennylex Luckless: See ya
[13:05] Kennylex Luckless: I has to go back and protect :-)
[13:05] Ima Mechanique: thanks for having us ;-)
Simulator_User_Group
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