Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2012.12.18

Simulator_User_Group
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== List of Speakers ==
Andrew Linden 	Inara Pey
Lares Carter 	Nalates Urriah
NeoBokrug Elytis	Qie Niangao
Rex Cronon 	Sera Lok
Simon Linden 	Sonya Haight
Theresa Tennyson	Yuzuru Jewell
== Transcript ==
[12:01] Lares Carter: Simon, your yacht is rezzed twice inside of each other..
[12:01] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
[12:01] Inara Pey waves to the new arrivals
[12:01] Simon Linden: Hi everyone - we'll get started in a minute
[12:01] Rex Cronon: hi
[12:01] Sera Lok: hello^^ -waving-
[12:01] Rex Cronon: hi simon
[12:01] Simon Linden: hmm, I know the yacht has a reflected hull to give it that water effect
[12:02] Simon Linden: oh yeah, interesting
[12:02] Qie Niangao: there seems to be 4 yachts and one reflection
[12:03] Yuzuru Jewell: I see 2 reflections..
[12:04] Andrew Linden: Ok I'll start with some quick news...
[12:04] Andrew Linden: Last week I managed to find an optimization opportunity in my interestlist project
[12:05] Andrew Linden: which shaves a few hundred usec off of some cases where there are a lot of full ObjectUpdates
[12:06] Andrew Linden: so this would translate to better server FPS when in large groups of avatars
[12:06] Nalates Urriah: Yay...
[12:06] Andrew Linden: or when in the presence of stuff that is generating lots of full updates
[12:06] Andrew Linden: yeah, it was a pleasant surprise
[12:07] Andrew Linden: otherwise, I fixed the last bug in my interestlist project last week and it is going through QA today
[12:07] Andrew Linden: really... last bug
[12:07] Andrew Linden: i hope...
[12:07] Andrew Linden: fin
[12:07] Simon Linden: I can talk about the updates ...
[12:08] Simon Linden: we rolled out the server version that was on the Magnum RC channel to the main server channel this morning
[12:08] Sonya Haight: can you take it back please? I don't want it.
[12:08] Rex Cronon: andrew i don't know if what i see is related to your interest list, but if i am near a sim border i see the next sim flickering every 3-7 seconds
[12:08] Simon Linden: So far things look good ... there have been a few reports of TP problems, but that looks like a network issue so far
[12:08] Simon Linden: I actually was looking at your report before this meeting, Sonya
[12:08] Sonya Haight: my sim has been down since the restart
[12:09] Andrew Linden: Rex, I would guess that is a viewer bug... the server bugs around region borders typically don't oscillate so fast.
[12:09] Rex Cronon: ok. maybe more around 10 seconds
[12:09] Andrew Linden: There is a flicker problem that takes 50 seconds that is a server bug... after crossing out of a region and looking back, but that should be fixed in my new code.
[12:09] Simon Linden: The support group has been looking at it - they're fixing the few that have had problems so it should be back soon
[12:10] Rex Cronon: yes. especially right after crossing
[12:10] Andrew Linden: Rex, what viewer are you using?
[12:10] Rex Cronon: 1.23.5
[12:10] Andrew Linden: oh hrm...
[12:10] Nalates Urriah: O.O
[12:10] Sonya Haight: how many are like that? I know one person just had theirs fixed with a restart, but Derrick tried a restart and that didnt' wrok
[12:10] Sonya Haight: work*
[12:11] Andrew Linden: well, you can test between Ahern and Morris on aditi -- those two neighbors are running my new code
[12:11] Inara Pey seconds Nal's reaction
[12:11] Rex Cronon: i know. that is very likely the source of all the werid things i see:)
[12:12] Theresa Tennyson didn't realize Rex was Orthodox - the mask must hide his beard.
[12:12] Simon Linden: We always see some issues after a rollout ... we're looking at over 20k regions, so things happen, and usually with the popular ones since AVs add stress
[12:12] Rex Cronon: ?
[12:12] Simon Linden: If we see a bad pattern or higher rate of issues, we'll do something about it ... I'm going to be looking at it after this user group as well
[12:13] Nalates Urriah: Magnum did include all the Blue & Tigre updates too.... yes?
[12:13] Sonya Haight: hope so, I was hearing a lot of people in different groups with the same problem or 2 hour down time
[12:13] Simon Linden: Tomorrow the 3 Release Channels will get an update, all with the same code, which is basically what we have on the main channel now plus one of the most common crashes fixed
[12:14] Simon Linden: Yes, Nal, the code on Magnum was a more recent version that had all the fixes in the other RCs
[12:14] Nalates Urriah: thx
[12:14] Simon Linden: We didn't see any blocking issues in the two versions, so we tossed that one and went with the more recent one with more fixes
[12:15] Simon Linden: Sonya - fwiw I was seeing reports of network problems with that region ... it couldn't communicate well with a lot of the viewers connected there
[12:16] Simon Linden: The restart should move it to another machine and that often takes care of the problem if it's associated with that particular server
[12:17] Simon Linden: That's it for the server release news
[12:17] Simon Linden: So I guess the invisible table is open for topics
[12:17] Sonya Haight: ok, thanks Simon, odd it didn't fix it with the earlier restart
[12:17] Qie Niangao: Simon, if I recall correctly, this current roll to main channel includes your fix for the navmesh rebake memory leak... and some low-level thread problem. I'm wondering if there's any chance that threading fix might solve some BUG-355 occurrences.
[12:17] Simon Linden: one sec, I'll look that up...
[12:18] Qie Niangao: (where BUG-355 is about apparent network stalling in busy sims)
[12:18] Simon Linden: Possibly, yes
[12:19] Qie Niangao: (Toysoldier Thor's thing.) Cool... it will be fun to see if the reports stop for that problem.
[12:19] Simon Linden: The memory leak could definitely put a region into a bad state where it just had too much memory allocate, which leads to page swapping and the performance turns bad
[12:19] Qie Niangao: Thanks, Simon.
[12:20] Nalates Urriah: We've been seeing horrible lag at Nyx's meeting in Barrowdale.
[12:20] Theresa Tennyson: BUG-355 seems to have something to do with a steady stream of new avatars arriving in a crowded region for some reason.
[12:20] Simon Linden: I don't think we ever got a real smoking gun for that bug report, however, so there isn't a direct line between the two, so I don't want to promise it's all fixed
[12:20] Andrew Linden: Nalates, that meeting is on Mondays?
[12:20] Nalates Urriah: Yes
[12:20] Rex Cronon: there was the same lag problem here last tuesday
[12:21] Andrew Linden: Ok, just curious. But we might not be able to tell if anything has changed there until the next meeting.
[12:21] Inara Pey: In both cases last week there were some people present with massively-high script loads.
[12:21] NeoBokrug Elytis: For bug 355, is it small intermittent bouts of lag? For instance a spike in Network Time?
[12:21] Qie Niangao: not a spike...
[12:22] Simon Linden: ah, one last bit of news -- due to the holidays, there won't be server updates next week or the week after
[12:22] Qie Niangao: it gets steadily worse, but yes, network
[12:22] Nalates Urriah: The Phoenix Hour meeting came off well. Region preformed very well with 76 avatars coming in. Jessica had estate scripting off. and it was an island.
[12:23] Simon Linden: That's good to hear
[12:23] Lares Carter: How are chances for BUG-1116 (feature request for a new LSL function which acts like llAttachToAvatarTemp() but does not need to rez the item in world first but can directly attach out of prim contents)
[12:23] Andrew Linden: This region "Denby" is running on the "Second Life Server" channel, so it just got the fix for the threading issue today.
[12:24] Andrew Linden: So maybe it was affected by that last week... it isn't clear.
[12:24] Nalates Urriah: I'm sure Toysoldier will be saying something if it didn't.
[12:26] Andrew Linden: Hrm... I wasn't involved in any of the "temporary attachment" work that might relate to FeatureRequest-1116
[12:26] Simon Linden: Lares - I can't give you feedback on that feature suggestion now, it sounds interesting but I think it would need a fair amount of thought
[12:26] Andrew Linden: not sure how hard that would be
[12:26] Inara Pey: Just found the feedback on one attendee from last week: 648 scripts [23664K] [15.792 ms]
[12:26] Lares Carter: Okay, thanks. It would be very useful. :)
[12:27] Andrew Linden: yeah, that looks like a script storm. 15.8 msec of the normal 22msec frame time
[12:27] Qie Niangao: I'm not sure where the permission to attach would be held, if there's no already rezzed object with a script to be attached.... so that raises the question: whatever happened to Experience Permissions?
[12:28] Nalates Urriah: Good question.
[12:28] Simon Linden: That's still moving along, Qie ... I forget what stalled it, but I know it's been getting attention recently
[12:28] NeoBokrug Elytis: Yeah, I am looking forward to that.
[12:28] Qie Niangao: Thanks. I'm thinking that temp-attach-from-inventory request would need to mesh with that XP stuff.
[12:29] Lares Carter: Would be nice if it would work without a lot of extra requirements, but I am afraid Qie is right. I would have liked to use that function for HUDs from vehicles for example, so I am not sure how that would work with Experience Permissions.
[12:29] Simon Linden: Right, that makes sense
[12:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[12:32] Simon Linden: well, the Experience Permissions basically lets someone say "OK" to the experience, which then allows some more functionality and reduces all the permissions nagging
[12:33] Simon Linden: So it would limit the usage to a granted experience ... but I'm not sure how some of that works beyond the high-level usage
[12:33] NeoBokrug Elytis: Is it maintained at the Estate or region or both?
[12:34] Simon Linden: it works cross-regions ... I'm not sure about outside an estate
[12:34] Sonya Haight: finally, took 5 hours but the region is back up
[12:35] Andrew Linden: I thought the experience was tied more to the login session... so yeah it should be able to span regions and estates in theory
[12:35] Simon Linden: hmm, I wonder what did that -- it doesn't look like it was just restarted, Sonya. I see it up for 2h 16m now
[12:35] Andrew Linden: however, the initial in-house experience stuff only existed in certain regions that had the right code
[12:36] Rex Cronon: why does it take 5 hours for a region to get up?
[12:36] NeoBokrug Elytis: I recently went to Linden Realms (last week) and the HUD never attached. I dunno if that's an experience issue or not.
[12:36] Sonya Haight: its looked up most of the day, showed red on teh map when it first went down, then normal and one Linden could get in, but I couldn't.
[12:37] NeoBokrug Elytis: Sonya: Perhaps nearby regions didn't see it as online?
[12:37] Simon Linden: that really sounds like network problems when it's only communicating with a limited set of other systems
[12:38] Sonya Haight: other people couldn't get into it by tping too from other regions, I tried tping in from other regions, walking in, logging into it, nothing worked
[12:38] Simon Linden: We've seen issues with neighboring regions not communicating well after rollouts ... it sometimes takes an hour or two for them to start talking again
[12:38] Lares Carter: SkyBeam was offline for 5 hours as well due to a restart.
[12:38] Simon Linden: but that's usually just visibility - you can TP in there, but not walk acrosss
[12:38] Sonya Haight: yes and i've had that problem the last few months Simon, but this was different, you can still tp in when its just that
[12:39] Simon Linden: right, it's not new (to this release) and it's ugly, but the region is still running fine and you can TP in
[12:39] Andrew Linden: When was SkyBeam down? Which 5 hours were that?
[12:39] Sonya Haight: awww now what?
[12:39] Sonya Haight: its tossed me out again
[12:39] Simon Linden: It looks like it just got restarted
[12:39] Lares Carter: Let me get the time.
[12:39] Sonya Haight: hehe somebody restarted it
[12:40] Simon Linden: So I think this is what happened : it was having trouble with some networking issue, you were in touch with Support
[12:40] Simon Linden: Something cleared up and it was ok, then Support got around to restarting it
[12:41] Sonya Haight: support has been standing on the next sim and that one with me and already tried restarting earlier
[12:41] Sonya Haight: but yeah, the ticket was still open
[12:42] Lares Carter: SkyBeam was offline from Dec 17th 08:51 PM PST until Dec 18th 1:54 AM PST according to my in-world object.
[12:43] Andrew Linden: Ah yes, I see that window in the history now. Hrm...
[12:45] Andrew Linden: Well, I don't know what happened yet.
[12:45] Andrew Linden: I'll have to look a little harder...
[12:46] Lares Carter: Unfortunately I don't know if it was a restart gone wrong or a crash. I wasn't around at that time. :/
[12:49] Simon Linden: hmm, well, if we're out of topics we can end the user group a little early today ... is there anything else you'd like to discuss?
[12:49] Andrew Linden: grumble... GMT timestamps always throw me for a loop
[12:50] Rex Cronon: last week before things got interesting we were talking about a new lsl function to determing in what groups is somebody...
[12:50] Lares Carter: Any news about fixed for Aditi problems?
[12:50] Simon Linden: oh yeah, especially in notices :)
[12:50] Sonya Haight: \
[12:50] Sonya Haight: oops
[12:50] Simon Linden: No, Lares ... from what I understand, there is some new hardware being ordered for that, which takes some time
[12:51] Nalates Urriah: So.... aditi disks may still fill up until the new stuff gets here?
[12:51] Simon Linden: Rex - I thought we didn't work out the privacy concerns with that function
[12:51] Lares Carter: Is the new hardware going to fix the synch issues? I only heard about it in direct connection with the login issues due to full harddrives.
[12:51] Simon Linden: Right, I think the sync is a different issue
[12:51] Rex Cronon: i looked at it againg and it seems there should be no more privacy concerns
[12:52] Simon Linden: if it can tell anything about a non-active group membership, there are privacy concerns, I believe
[12:52] Rex Cronon: it seems quite save if it works only on users that r in the same sim and have the group active
[12:52] Lares Carter: I've tried several times and waited 24h and more, but I can't get it to synch correctly.
[12:52] Rex Cronon: quite safe*
[12:52] Andrew Linden: Actually, I saw some work by another LL dev recently who was fixing some "memory leaks" in the aditi database that could be caused by inventory imports from agni
[12:53] Lares Carter: Which makes Aditi a bit useless for testing Mesh as I have to reupload any work in progress after each login.
[12:53] Simon Linden: ah, ok Rex ... I'm not promising anything, but that seems more reasonable
[12:53] Andrew Linden: I wonder if those fixes were related to filling up of the aditi databases
[12:54] Andrew Linden: we've got some scripts that are supposed to hunt for and clean up lost inventory which might have caught these leaks... I wonder if they are running on aditi.
[12:55] Qie Niangao: The concern, as I understand it, was that the script could ask about (active) group for groups that it only needed to know the key of... not have to belong to... and if the script's owner wasn't in the sim, it was impractical to figure out whether they should be able to ask about any particular group other than the one the object was set to.
[12:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[12:55] Lares Carter: Anything done on Aditi won't safe, I got 4 HUDs attached by now on each login, as it seems to remember those and adds them up. Anything synched from my Agni inventory can't be rezzed on Aditi.
[12:56] Simon Linden: hrmm, that does sound like a problem, Qie
[12:56] Qie Niangao: (I don't have that concern myself, but I think that was the rationale.)
[12:57] Andrew Linden: Lares, I don't know if that particular problem was addressed by the work I was looking at. I'll have to ask the other dev, who is out today.
[12:57] Simon Linden: There are some pretty big privacy concerns about group membership
[12:57] Nalates Urriah: Lares, the fix we have found is to keep changing passwords until it finally clicks. It took me weeks to get my ADITI inventory working. It would forget what I was wearing, not save new things, not rez recent AGNI things... it is a mess when it doesn't work.
[12:57] Lares Carter: It would be appreciated, thanks Andrew.
[12:58] Lares Carter: That sounds exactly like it, Nal. I'll just keep trying then.
[12:59] Nalates Urriah: There is aJIRA thread that I think is still readable. But, the conclusion is keep trying. I think you have to hit a moment right after someone cleans up the ADITI disks, but that is a guess.
[12:59] Simon Linden: Well, thanks everyone for coming out today
[12:59] Inara Pey: Thanks as always for your time, Simon, Andrew.
[12:59] Simon Linden: There will be a user group Thursday on the beta grid, but next week's are canceled
[12:59] Nalates Urriah: Thanks Lindens, Merry Christmas.
[12:59] Sonya Haight: thanks Simon, Andrew and Kelly
[12:59] Rex Cronon: tc simon, andrew, kelly
[12:59] Simon Linden: Also none on the 1st
[12:59] Lares Carter: Thanks for the meeting. Happy holidays! :)
[12:59] Qie Niangao: Thanks Simon, Andrew, Kelly. Have great holidays!
[12:59] Yuzuru Jewell: Thank you, Simon and Andrew and Kelly. Merry Christmas.
[12:59] Inara Pey: Have a good break over the holiday period
[13:00] Andrew Linden: Happy holidays.
[13:00] Inara Pey: Oops, didn't see Kelly there
[13:00] Simon Linden: Happy Holidays to everyone!
[13:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[13:00] Inara Pey: Merry Christmas and all the best for 2013!
[13:00] Rex Cronon: tc everybody and happy holidays and happy new year:)
[13:00] Sera Lok: happy new year^^
[13:01] Rex Cronon: and lets hope that 12/21/12 is not the end of the world as some people believe that the mayan calendar says:)
[13:01] Simon Linden: We got past 12/12/12 OK :)
[13:01] Andrew Linden: Meh, if the 21st was going to be the end of the world I'd expect a lot more drama here in SL ;-)
[13:02] Yuzuru Jewell: It is not the end of Japanese calender. :D
[13:02] Andrew Linden: Good point Yuzuru.
[13:02] Qie Niangao: Mayan version of Y2K. Just all their COBOL programmers are dead.
[13:02] Simon Linden: Take care -- see you Thursday or next year
[13:02] Nalates Urriah: Because the Mayians stopped buying new calendars doesn't mean much.
Simulator_User_Group
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