User Experience Interest Group/Transcripts/2009-11-05

== Topic ==
User Experience Interest Group Discussion for November 05, 2009.
Topic: Open Topic: Random Ramblings.
== Summary ==
Mostly we just chatted about random stuff the whole time...
== Transcript ==
[14:59]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Ahoy
[14:59]	McCabe Maxsted: 	ahoy!
[15:01]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hmm, sim notification isn't working here
[15:03]	McCabe Maxsted: 	ahoy geneko!
[15:04]	Charlette Proto: 	hiya
[15:05]	Charlette Proto: 	chat lag?
[15:05]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hi Gen and Charlette
[15:05]	Charlette Proto: 	hi Gen Jacek McCabe
[15:06]	McCabe Maxsted waves 	McCabe Maxsted waves
[15:06]	Charlette Proto: 	get a feeling snowglobe (test build) lost some FPS this time around
[15:06]	Charlette Proto: 	maybe just because I only logged
[15:07]	Charlette Proto: 	did Gen rez for you?
[15:08]	Charlette Proto: 	I see a cloud
[15:08]	McCabe Maxsted: 	yup
[15:08]	Charlette Proto: 	shit maybe it is a bad hair day for me
[15:08]	McCabe Maxsted: 	is there a list of what's in the latest test build?
[15:09]	Charlette Proto: 	didn't have a chance to look, but the last fixed that missing media plugin error some peeps had
[15:09]	Charlette Proto: 	I was getting the error on Vista 32 and not on win7 64
[15:10]	Charlette Proto: 	so that surprised me, I update both all the time
[15:10]	Charlette Proto: 	and really didn't think Vista and Win7 would be any diff this way
[15:11]	Charlette Proto: 	see what I mean? new versions (same file) on both OSs and different results
[15:12]	McCabe Maxsted still needs to do some windows 7 development stuff 	McCabe Maxsted still needs to do some windows 7 development stuff
[15:13]	Charlette Proto: 	it really is 6.1 as you know and I can't believe they passed up on the opportunity to name the OS in a really geek way "6.1" everyone with brain would have loved that
[15:14]	Charlette Proto: 	everyone loves x.1 versions
[15:14]	Charlette Proto: 	or should I have said n.1 looks keler
[15:14]	Charlette Proto: 	.1 kind of has good cred
[15:15]	Charlette Proto: 	I want Second Life™ 2.1 now
[15:15]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hehe
[15:15]	Jacek Antonelli: 	heh
[15:15]	Charlette Proto: 	Charlette Pronto please
[15:15]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Anyway. Anybody have anything they want to talk about today?
[15:16]	Charlette Proto: 	performance on deferred (and UI for deferred like in the ugly Kirstyn's viewer)
[15:16]	Charlette Proto: 	god that is the ugliest UI I've seen in ages
[15:17]	Charlette Proto: 	know what I mean; the grey on cyan colour combo, icons with no text
[15:17]	Charlette Proto: 	rendering deserves thumbs up for sure (I love it for pics), but can't stand the skin
[15:18]	McCabe Maxsted hasn't looked at the skin much beyond a few screens 	McCabe Maxsted hasn't looked at the skin much beyond a few screens
[15:18]	Charlette Proto: 	maybe you haven't played with Kirstin's 1.8?
[15:18]	McCabe Maxsted: 	are there any good skins out there these days? I know croniq created a nifty new one
[15:19]	Charlette Proto: 	wish I had a capture at hand, it breaks all the rules of design and I don't mean in any good way
[15:19]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hey Garn *earskritches*
[15:20]	Garn Conover: 	Mrewp Mrewp! ^_^ hewwo
[15:20]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Mweh Mweh! :O
[15:20]	Charlette Proto: 	kirstin's has XML changes and a weird toolbar made of icons onlt at the top (below main menu)
[15:20]	Charlette Proto: 	hi Garn
[15:20]	Garn Conover: 	i still cant use kristens lol
[15:20]	McCabe Maxsted: 	ahoy goarn
[15:20]	McCabe Maxsted: 	*garn
[15:20]	McCabe Maxsted isn't sure where that o came from 	McCabe Maxsted isn't sure where that o came from
[15:21]	Geneko Nemeth wants to push the button on Garn's head, but it won't let him. 	Geneko Nemeth wants to push the button on Garn's head, but it won't let him.
[15:21]	McCabe Maxsted: 	breaks the rules more than SL's viewer does?
[15:21]	Charlette Proto: 	I want the toolbar at the top, but not a fixed row of buttons for the same funcions we have - a user defined set of tools with switching between modes (eg build/chat)
[15:21]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Ribbon?
[15:22]	Charlette Proto: 	a pink ribbon would be nice, perhaps tied in a knot Gen
[15:22]	Garn Conover: 	which one?
[15:22]	Charlette Proto: 	I mean like MS Office - user defined
[15:23]	Charlette Proto: 	I mentioned how bad the skin is in Kirsten's viewer garn
[15:23]	Charlette Proto: 	or was the which one re MSO?
[15:23]	Charlette Proto: 	the office ref is only regarding the ability to use the toolbar that suits one's working routine
[15:24]	Charlette Proto: 	I'd see it have a number of modes (build/chat etc)
[15:24]	Garn Conover kicks errors on imp 	Garn Conover kicks errors on imp
[15:24]	Charlette Proto: 	and having a way to swap/trade configurations with other residents
[15:25]	Charlette Proto: 	what do you mean Garn?
[15:25]	Garn Conover: 	ive got startup errors since 1.1 was released and we cant find out WHY
[15:25]	McCabe Maxsted: 	some sort of weird lib error only garn's seeing
[15:25]	Charlette Proto: 	last Imp was a very good move, the only thing is performance and for me the pie (radial) menu layout
[15:26]	Charlette Proto: 	weird? Imp works very well for me except FPS
[15:26]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Have you been compiling it with RelWithDebInfo?
[15:26]	Garn Conover: 	1.1 RC2 works fine
[15:26]	Garn Conover: 	Genko i just use the downloads
[15:27]	Charlette Proto: 	I like everything at max so snow gives the best results
[15:27]	Geneko Nemeth: 	That's weird. I don't see any difference between Imp and Snowglobe except image decoding...
[15:27]	Garn Conover: 	i can use 1.1 RC2 with no errors but 1.1 release and after ive gotten the same errors every time lol
[15:28]	Geneko Nemeth: 	(But image decoding is a biggie in performance.)
[15:28]	Garn Conover: 	highly annoying clicking through 10 or so error popups on login
[15:28]	Charlette Proto: 	me too I use the binary, haven't compiled Second Life™ since I had VS2005, my last effort was like 2 days of pain and now I have new lappie and not all the same s/w
[15:29]	Charlette Proto: 	ah the open source jpg decoder?
[15:30]	Charlette Proto: 	what about the one in Snow "J2C Decoder Version: OpenJPEG: 1.3.0, Runtime: 1.3.0"
[15:30]	Jacek Antonelli: 	That's what we're using. Is Snowglobe really using OpenJPEG?
[15:30]	Charlette Proto: 	Gen can I ask you to do appearance or rebake
[15:31]	McCabe Maxsted: 	snowglobe also has a lot of other texture changes
[15:31]	Geneko Nemeth: 	30 minutes and still a blob?
[15:31]	Charlette Proto: 	yeah and Snow gets the best FPS for me
[15:31]	Charlette Proto: 	yeah snow has the media plugin now and HTTP
[15:31]	Charlette Proto: 	good thankies gen
[15:31]	Charlette Proto: 	you are pretty as ever now
[15:31]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I don't think HTTP fetch works yet...
[15:31]	Charlette Proto: 	the map works
[15:32]	McCabe Maxsted: 	there's other stuff besides http fetch
[15:32]	Charlette Proto: 	but it can be blury at times
[15:33]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hrm. I wish we had more developers. It's hard to even keep up with other viewers, let alone add new stuff.
[15:33]	Charlette Proto: 	like now I've popped the minimap and when I zoom I get blury green, suppose not much here but should see the OS building at least
[15:33]	Charlette Proto: 	true Jacek
[15:34]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I can feel that too.
[15:35]	McCabe Maxsted nods 	McCabe Maxsted nods
[15:35]	Charlette Proto: 	BTW how far did Mm get with his dynamically built widget thingie? anyone know?
[15:35]	McCabe Maxsted: 	honestly, it's been a bad week for me too. Lot of other things going on
[15:36]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Mm had some computer trouble
[15:36]	Jacek Antonelli: 	But he has started working on it again recently
[15:36]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I think Imprudence needs a little bit of evangelism.
[15:36]	Charlette Proto: 	haha shit happens
[15:36]	McCabe Maxsted: 	I'm going to be on a panel on friday talking about it
[15:36]	Charlette Proto: 	me too, even the testing could do with a few more people using it
[15:37]	Jacek Antonelli: 	A panel?
[15:37]	McCabe Maxsted: 	something called "rezzed tv"?
[15:37]	Charlette Proto: 	but hard to know/easy to forget to check if there is something new to download
[15:37]	McCabe Maxsted: 	they wanted to talk about 3rd party viewers; there're a few emerald people on the panel too
[15:37]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Cool
[15:38]	Geneko Nemeth: 	And website doesn't look very... "Download this!"-y.
[15:38]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hrm. True.
[15:38]	Charlette Proto: 	yes gen
[15:38]	McCabe Maxsted intends to announce our forthcoming mega-ultra-copybo--oops! Almost let that slip! 	McCabe Maxsted intends to announce our forthcoming mega-ultra-copybo--oops! Almost let that slip!
[15:38]	Charlette Proto: 	what panel are you talking about McCabe
[15:38]	Jacek Antonelli: 	McCabe! Shhhhh!
[15:39]	Charlette Proto: 	don't say a thing against copybot or morgaine will call you a ludite
[15:39]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hahaha
[15:39]	McCabe Maxsted: 	heh
[15:39]	Charlette Proto: 	apparently the future is copy what you need - hehe
[15:40]	Charlette Proto: 	no matter who gets hurt or what permission they give
[15:40]	Charlette Proto: 	some people just think Open Source is a utopian thing
[15:41]	Charlette Proto: 	just as well Sun, IBM, Novel and even LL don't think this way
[15:41]	Charlette Proto: 	AMD too do OS with 100% respect for data ownership
[15:41]	Charlette Proto: 	data/info
[15:42]	Jacek Antonelli: 	We should probably talk about something UX-related today sometime.
[15:42]	Charlette Proto: 	sure, is the toolbar topic overused
[15:43]	Charlette Proto: 	I mean spent
[15:43]	Jacek Antonelli: 	We can talk about the toolbar
[15:43]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Maybe we don't have to. We have enough ideas that are unimplemented.
[15:43]	Charlette Proto: 	I really think the toolbar (programmable) is the best way to make a good UI in Second Life™
[15:44]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Good defaults are still needed, 90% of people won't touch customization options.
[15:44]	Geneko Nemeth: 	(Not when it's so complex....)
[15:44]	Charlette Proto: 	should we look at something else you would like to implement but aren't sure how to move on etc
[15:44]	Geneko Nemeth: 	...
[15:44]	Charlette Proto: 	that is the point Gen, they would share the ones people like us make
[15:45]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Distribute custom UIs as an inworld item?
[15:45]	Jacek Antonelli: 	It's just crazy enough to work!
[15:45]	Charlette Proto: 	that is why i see it as open to config from a file people can share and trade
[15:46]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hm, not sure how to implement....
[15:46]	McCabe Maxsted: 	double click ui preferences?
[15:46]	Charlette Proto: 	you think, I believe good UI layouts would really lend themselves to swapping amongst people doing the same things
[15:47]	Charlette Proto: 	one would load a config file which only changes the toolbar sets and the menu would have a selection of the ones you have available to use
[15:47]	Charlette Proto: 	may need to be a local HD file rather than inventory thing, but should be on the server if poss
[15:48]	Charlette Proto: 	just like another set of floater XML files you swap between
[15:49]	Charlette Proto: 	the main thing would be the ability to drop any of the UI elements into a hierarchical set of tools
[15:50]	Charlette Proto: 	lag
[15:50]	Charlette Proto: 	I didn't see McCabe's text yet
[15:51]	McCabe Maxsted: 	sorry, I had an idea, then realized it was stupid so I didn't send it
[15:51]	Charlette Proto: 	ah hehe
[15:51]	Charlette Proto: 	and I blame LL
[15:51]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hehe
[15:51]	McCabe Maxsted: 	it's a bad habit to break
[15:51]	McCabe Maxsted: 	especially the way they make it so easy sometimes...
[15:51]	Charlette Proto: 	any idea on how Sun add things into the UI in Project Wonderland
[15:52]	Charlette Proto: 	lag makes for a lot of confusion too
[15:53]	Charlette Proto: 	Su have a lot of stuff in the context menu
[15:53]	Charlette Proto: 	Sun*
[15:53]	Charlette Proto: 	toast crumbs under the keys
[15:53]	McCabe Maxsted throws out random ux phrases. "Lexicon! Floater! Usability! Menu system!" 	McCabe Maxsted throws out random ux phrases. "Lexicon! Floater! Usability! Menu system!"
[15:54]	Charlette Proto: 	just remembered that I've seen a 'good' example for the machinima camera timeline tools
[15:54]	Charlette Proto: 	nice one McCabe
[15:54]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Gah! McCabe found out my secret!
[15:54]	Charlette Proto: 	sounded like semantic web
[15:54]	McCabe Maxsted: 	muwahaha
[15:55]	McCabe Maxsted: 	I'm actually a bot
[15:55]	McCabe Maxsted is part of an insidious plot to fuck up all your pie menus and take over the grid 	McCabe Maxsted is part of an insidious plot to fuck up all your pie menus and take over the grid
[15:55]	Jacek Antonelli: 	It's working so far!
[15:55]	Geneko Nemeth: 	You don't happen to be the same person as Mark V Shane, do you?
[15:55]	Charlette Proto: 	the camera timeline environment editor i saw is in a bunch of demos by "unigine"
[15:56]	McCabe Maxsted: 	mark v?
[15:56]	Charlette Proto: 	very hot looking stuff capable of DX11 (makes Blue Mars look ancient)
[15:56]	Charlette Proto: 	but proprietory thing by a bunch of russians
[15:56]	Geneko Nemeth: 	An application of Markov chain to generate random phrases that have a quaint quality to them.
[15:56]	Charlette Proto: 	kind of like a russian code mafia
[15:57]	McCabe Maxsted: 	so kind of like a robotic wilford brimley
[15:57]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Wilford Brimley?
[15:57]	McCabe Maxsted: 	from the diabet'es commercials
[15:58]	Jacek Antonelli: 	He probably doesn't get those where he lives
[15:58]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Never heard of that guy, is he one of your US inventions?
[15:58]	McCabe Maxsted: 	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXQaMaBxwRg
[15:58]	Charlette Proto: 	if you want something to challenge/benchmark your DX11 go to unigine.com and look at Heaven demo, one can walk/fly about etc
[16:01]	Charlette Proto: 	but my point mentioning the uningine is the environment editor - really quite nice
[16:02]	McCabe Maxsted: 	we don't have health care reform yet, so yeah; crazy us invention :)
[16:02]	McCabe Maxsted: 	charlette: know of any screens?
[16:02]	Charlette Proto: 	designed to make demo fly-through which is about 90% suitable for machinima work
[16:02]	Charlette Proto: 	screens?
[16:02]	McCabe Maxsted: 	screenshots
[16:02]	Charlette Proto: 	for unigine?
[16:03]	McCabe Maxsted: 	for their environment editor
[16:03]	Charlette Proto: 	need to take pics, didn't see any so far
[16:03]	Charlette Proto: 	the downloads are small - not like Blue Mars
[16:04]	Charlette Proto: 	but the system is very much like BM, everything (the world) on HD
[16:04]	McCabe Maxsted: 	it prolly says a lot about me that every time I see people mentioning "BM" I think "body modification"
[16:05]	Charlette Proto: 	I can't run it along side of Second Life™ it is really too much for my laptop, works best on the desktop with an ATI DX11 card
[16:05]	Charlette Proto: 	haha McCabe
[16:06]	McCabe Maxsted: 	*coughs* anyway, would be very curious to see some pics, yeah
[16:06]	Charlette Proto: 	I'll make some to pass around, it really looks relevant to out machinima theme
[16:07]	Charlette Proto: 	I've been looking for something like that, but most other seem too tech
[16:08]	Charlette Proto: 	wish it wasn't a proprietory platform with a minimum cost of US$50k like the LL Private Server thinggie
[16:09]	McCabe Maxsted: 	yikes
[16:09]	Charlette Proto: 	you've seen the Second Life™ behind Firewall blogs
[16:09]	McCabe Maxsted: 	heard it mentioned af ew times, yeah
[16:09]	Charlette Proto: 	very similar approach for corporate peeps
[16:10]	McCabe Maxsted wonders just what benefits a program with neglligible enterprise tools could have to warrant the price 	McCabe Maxsted wonders just what benefits a program with neglligible enterprise tools could have to warrant the price
[16:10]	Charlette Proto: 	not sure of LLs chances at that, I'd never assume they could make something that is secure, prolly would go for Sun Project wonderland if I was looking at an enterprise build
[16:11]	Charlette Proto: 	I can see (long term) possibilities in design, but not without Real Life™ model import capabilities
[16:12]	Charlette Proto: 	if it integrated Real Life™ CAD models as well as Google Sketchup Pro than maybe there is market for it, but not based on prims
[16:13]	Charlette Proto: 	I meant " as good as" Sketchup can
[16:13]	McCabe Maxsted: 	maybe they just want to run their secret office gor islands without anyone finding out
[16:13]	Charlette Proto: 	yeah LL Gors
[16:13]	Charlette Proto: 	maybe M is a Gore, he only thinks of chat
[16:13]	McCabe Maxsted: 	but, yeah, heh; would like to see what their pitch is
[16:13]	Charlette Proto: 	SN seems to be the M thing in Second Life™ not builds
[16:14]	Charlette Proto: 	lookin at the vids on the tube, he thinks Second Life™ is a text chat now and V2 viewer will be a voice app with text thrown in
[16:15]	Geneko Nemeth: 	How naive.
[16:15]	McCabe Maxsted: 	"psh, who uses text anymore?"
[16:15]	Charlette Proto: 	thius what I think too, but it explains the last year a lot
[16:15]	Charlette Proto: 	we do McCabe
[16:15]	Charlette Proto: 	people who want a log
[16:16]	Charlette Proto: 	and alts
[16:16]	Charlette Proto: 	and tranies hehe
[16:16]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Why do you want a log when you could just record the whole meeting and upload it on YouTube?
[16:16]	Jacek Antonelli: 	heh
[16:16]	Charlette Proto: 	true but you can't search so easily yet
[16:17]	McCabe Maxsted thinks it's a sign of lindnes using voice for all their meetings, then realizing that they bolted the voice controls on in a very ugly and hard to use way, so they've gone to the opposite extreme	McCabe Maxsted thinks it's a sign of lindnes using voice for all their meetings, then realizing that they bolted the voice controls on in a very ugly and hard to use way, so they've gone to the opposite extreme
[16:17]	Charlette Proto: 	seems so McCabe
[16:17]	McCabe Maxsted: 	just my opinion about something I've only seen blurry screenshots of and read random comments on....
[16:17]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Me, I'm not relying on Voice until the client goes open source.
[16:18]	Charlette Proto: 	yeah, the vids don't show anything clearly besides DX shadows demo he made
[16:18]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yay, I get to try out the minimap radar abuse report
[16:18]	Charlette Proto: 	WTF
[16:18]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hehe
[16:18]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I think they are just testing griefing tools.
[16:18]	McCabe Maxsted: 	who's that?
[16:18]	Jacek Antonelli: 	archimede Beverly
[16:18]	Charlette Proto shouts: PERLALUCENTE Bellic you will get reported if you keep going on 	Charlette Proto shouts: PERLALUCENTE Bellic you will get reported if you keep going on
[16:19]	Charlette Proto: 	stupid trolls!
[16:19]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I don't think they know this place actually has a purpose.
[16:19]	Charlette Proto: 	bet they don't
[16:20]	Geneko Nemeth: 	It's a perfect place for testing stuff out, isn't it?
[16:20]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hm, weird, it didn't auto fill the name
[16:20]	Geneko Nemeth whispers: Although, not as good as Dynamism... 	Geneko Nemeth whispers: Although, not as good as Dynamism...
[16:20]	Charlette Proto: 	he asked for it stupid fool
[16:21]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Well, I'm getting bored.
[16:21]	McCabe Maxsted: 	did it autofill for you jacek?
[16:21]	McCabe Maxsted: 	ah lovely
[16:21]	McCabe Maxsted nods. Sorry, just not really feeling it today 	McCabe Maxsted nods. Sorry, just not really feeling it today
[16:22]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Let's adjourn, we're done anyway. Take care everyone, see you next week!