Mesh/Archive/2012-10-22

==Agenda==
# Any news about material progress?Drongle McMahon
# Mesh Deformer news along with time frame for normal / specular maps , where to go to stay informed about that. [whiteRabbit]
# Stolen mesh assets, ones taken from major game companies, example : EA Software, any system for reporting & removal ? [whiteRabbit0]
# Possible recommended Poly values for avatar attachments. IE Poly count / render count / similar to LI but for worn items to discourage modeling every single shoelace. [ whiteRabbit0 ]
==Meeting Notes==
==Attendees List==
*Aki Shichiroji (aki.shichiroji)
*Asha (ashasekayi.ra)
*Asterion Coen (asterion.coen)
*Some Hoe (aya.niosaki)
*Chubbalicious (chubbalicious)
*Drongle McMahon (drongle.mcmahon)
*Roccagloriosa (epicgordon.broome)
*Frans Charming (frans.charming)
*G. McAuley (gee.mcauley)
*Hoz Linden (hoz.linden)
*Hydrogen (hydrogen.excelsior)
*Inara Pey (inara.pey)
*Iva (ivanova.shostakovich)
*Markus Slingshot (markus.slingshot)
*Motor Loon (motor.loon)
*Nal (nalates.urriah)
*Nyx Linden (nyx.linden)
*Quarters Bailey (quarters.bailey)
*Ramona Criss (ramona.criss)
*Second Life (second.life)
*Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)
*Tiberious Neruda (tiberious.neruda)
*Bazz Fazz (vir.linden)
*Viviana Portland (viviana.portland)
*Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)
==Transcript for Monday October 22, 2012==
[12:00]	Aki Shichiroji 	Hi Nyx
[12:00]	Frans Charming 	try and walk markus
[12:00]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Hello Tiberious. You are still gray..
[12:00]	Frans Charming 	My fps is fine too. :P
[12:00]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Hello Nyx.
[12:00]	Tiberious Neruda 	I'm a grey cat
[12:00]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Under te sea.
[12:01]	Markus Slingshot 	Chat lag
[12:01]	Markus Slingshot 	Lol - been on SL for around three years, and I think this is the first time I've seen a linden lol ^^
[12:01]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Tiberious, I see that you are gray.
[12:01]	Ramona Criss 	Hello Nyx and Prep
[12:01]	Motor Loon 	you must not get out much Markus ¬∞Õú¬∞
[12:01]	Aki Shichiroji 	Hi Prep
[12:01]	Markus Slingshot 	Yeah - I've just been attacked by the lag
[12:01]	Markus Slingshot 	No Motor :P
[12:02]	Frans Charming 	there several of these kind of meeting every week.
[12:02]	Tiberious Neruda 	I clicked 'Stand up' about a minute ago
[12:02]	Motor Loon 	are you fixing the greifing crap Nyx? the sim looks like its getting ready to crash on us
[12:02]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Nyx. Please retuen Boulito
[12:03]	Aki Shichiroji 	the particle generator is over in the next sim i think.
[12:03]	Nyx Linden 	working on it. one step at a time :)
[12:03]	Aki Shichiroji 	is it possible something else is the source of the issues on this region?
[12:05]	Aki Shichiroji 	Hi there Vir
[12:05]	Markus Slingshot 	Same
[12:05]	Tiberious Neruda 	yeah
[12:05]	Bazz Fazz (vir.linden) 	Howdy folks
[12:06]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	yeah for derender, at least no more particle spam
[12:06]	Chubbalicious 	Hi
[12:06]	Markus Slingshot 	I think it was just an awkward silence White lol
[12:06]	Markus Slingshot 	Hello
[12:06]	Tiberious Neruda 	sim's still lagged out
[12:06]	Motor Loon 	just lag from some griefing object guys... just wait til the Lindens have it sorted
[12:06]	Ramona Criss 	Hello Vir
[12:06]	Ramona Criss 	chat lag :(
[12:07]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Hello, Vir.
[12:07]	Markus Slingshot 	Would 'When are the proper Experience Permissions things coming in for the llTeleport and llAttachToAvatar functions?' be an appropriate questions for here or is it under another thingy?
[12:07]	Markus Slingshot 	/me obviously loves the word thing and it's descendance
[12:07]	Markus Slingshot 	descendants*
[12:07]	Markus Slingshot 	Ok, cheersd
[12:08]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Markus, you can ask. The permissions people tend to stay wrapped in security. So, there isn't much news from them,
[12:08]	Markus Slingshot 	k
[12:08]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Oz has gone.
[12:08]	Tiberious Neruda 	we're lagged, still
[12:09]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	I'm seeing TD at .037 with Sim FPS bouncing between 10 and 45
[12:10]	Markus Slingshot 	Ok thanks
[12:10]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	that wiki is way out of date
[12:10]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	and none know who has permissions to edit it
[12:11]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	not all of the times are the same
[12:13]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	heya Hoz
[12:13]	Aki Shichiroji 	how are we doing? should we try some other venue?
[12:13]	Nyx Linden 	so the agenda is looking a little blank, people should add topics while we're working on the sim's performance: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group
[12:16]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	fun times
[12:16]	Frans Charming 	back in 2.
[12:16]	Ramona Criss 	lets run lol
[12:16]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	nyx, poke us in iorc when its back
[12:16]	Second Life 	Now leaving god mode, level 150
[12:17]	Second Life 	Teleport completed from http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Borrowdale/74/217/32
[12:17]	Second Life 	Teleport completed from http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/LindenWorld%20B/153/77/47
[12:20]	Second Life 	Teleport completed from http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Grasmere/91/1/37
[12:20]	Quarters Bailey 	Hi Viviana, good thanks, and you?
[12:20]	Asterion Coen 	looks like a linden is 2 sim away on the north, they moved there ?
[12:20]	Viviana Portland 	fine thanks
[12:20]	Quarters Bailey 	was afk there for a long time
[12:21]	Motor Loon 	grouphug...
[12:21]	Second Life 	Teleport completed from http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Borrowdale/0/0/50
[12:22]	Second Life 	Teleport completed from http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/LindenWorld%20B/153/77/47
[12:23]	Second Life 	There is no suitable surface to sit on, try another spot.
[12:23]	Second Life 	Teleport completed from http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Borrowdale/90/254/45
[12:23]	Second Life 	Teleport completed from http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/LindenWorld%20B/153/77/47
[12:27]	Second Life 	Teleport completed from http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Borrowdale/2/124/75
[12:28]	Second Life 	Teleport completed from http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/LindenWorld%20B/153/77/47
[12:30]	Inara Pey 	What fun....
[12:30]	Aki Shichiroji 	sofas have been known to consume vast quantities of change.
[12:31]	Chubbalicious 	yes ive raided a few in my time with great results
[12:31]	Motor Loon 	well, always good with a little roadtrip...
[12:31]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	thx nyx and whopever else helped clean up the region
[12:31]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Yay TD back to 0.99
[12:32]	Motor Loon 	not bad for 30 mins of work
[12:32]	Motor Loon 	/me grins
[12:32]	Nyx Linden 	welcome back all, sorry for the region performance issues
[12:32]	Roccagloriosa (epicgordon.broome) 	Jolly good! ‚óï‚Äø‚óï
[12:32]	Inara Pey 	Did that classify as another pile on test? ‚òª
[12:33]	Nyx Linden 	we have a handful of topics on the agenda, feel free to add more: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group
[12:33]	Inara Pey 	....Or pile-UP test?
[12:33]	Motor Loon 	ooh mabye we'll get another goldmedal
[12:33]	Chubbalicious 	Drongle beat me to it, same question.
[12:33]	Nyx Linden 	let's get to it!
[12:33]	Nyx Linden 	first topic: "Any news about material progress?Drongle McMahon"
[12:34]	Nyx Linden 	I don't have any updates for that project, Oz linden is the best informed on that topic
[12:34]	Asterion Coen 	greetings folks
[12:34]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	its still vary much under development
[12:34]	Nyx Linden 	related, second topic: "Mesh Deformer news along with time frame for normal / specular maps , where to go to stay informed about that. [whiteRabbit]"
[12:35]	Hoz Linden 	I don't have specifics, but I know that material project is making good progress
[12:35]	Ramona Criss 	o/
[12:35]	Aki Shichiroji 	o/
[12:35]	Frans Charming 	That's atleast hearting Hoz. :)
[12:35]	Ramona Criss 	hope so
[12:35]	Frans Charming 	heartening
[12:35]	Nyx Linden 	both projects are being done in collaboration with external developers, Oz manages that coordination, so he is generally the most up to date.
[12:36]	Nyx Linden 	both are being hammered away at, but I do not personally have a specific update to share for the moment
[12:36]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Geenz Spad is the TP Dev working on it. He is usually at the Open Source UG meetings.
[12:36]	Motor Loon 	biggest chance for questions on materials would be Oz's UG or the unofficial group with Geenz (tomorrow) http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation_Improvement_Informal_User_Group
[12:37]	Ramona Criss 	Mesh Deformer is waited for so many :P
[12:37]	Motor Loon 	yw
[12:37]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	The Unoffical group stopped meeting a couple of weeks ago...
[12:37]	Tiberious Neruda 	>.<
[12:37]	Motor Loon 	it did?
[12:37]	Motor Loon 	hm... Oz's then
[12:37]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Oy
[12:37]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Oz's is it
[12:37]	Inara Pey 	Nope, meetings have just been under-attended.
[12:37]	Nyx Linden 	the official usergroups are listed here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:User_Groups#Calendar
[12:37]	Nyx Linden 	Oz runs open development meetings twice a week
[12:38]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Last Oz's UG was not opened..
[12:38]	Inara Pey 	I understand that the spec for the revised builder floater for materials has been finalised and work is due to start on coding it.
[12:39]	Chubbalicious 	i dont know what that means but i bet its all good stuff
[12:40]	Chubbalicious 	fantastic..see i was right, good stuff
[12:40]	Asterion Coen 	what about other progress in regular builds (inworld) ? mesh are fun and all, but..
[12:41]	Inara Pey 	Gah.. why does the doorbell go during meetings? Pey's Law? Send me a tp RL if anything happens...
[12:41]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "Stolen mesh assets, ones taken from major game companies, example : EA Software, any system for reporting & removal ? [whiteRabbit0]"
[12:42]	Nyx Linden 	the web page with DMCA notification policy is here: http://secondlife.com/corporate/dmca.php
[12:42]	Hydrogen (hydrogen.excelsior) 	I have seen somebody selling some stuff from turbosquid. I don't know if they are the owner of that work or just steal that work and sell em in SL
[12:43]	Roccagloriosa (epicgordon.broome) 	But one cannot file a DMCA unless one is the copyright holder.
[12:43]	Hydrogen (hydrogen.excelsior) 	right
[12:43]	Nyx Linden 	I am not personally involved in the review process for the claims, but that is where we list the relevant information
[12:45]	Aki Shichiroji 	ideally it would be nice at least if featured material is vetted. It's not just a matter of DMCA, it's a matter of how the Lab chooses to present itself in its promotional material.
[12:45]	Nyx Linden 	there is an abuse report category type for copybot, etc activities if you would like to report such activities that way.
[12:46]	Nyx Linden 	but our policy around claims is on our dmca page. We encourage the original copyright holders to file the report, but feel free to read over that page for more information.
[12:46]	Nyx Linden 	This is outside of my personal area of expertise, so I am just passing along what information I have available to me.
[12:46]	Asterion Coen 	are the items in copy/modif, and then modified by a script to get the ownership (and abble then to change attributs) are considerated as copybot, or other violations ?
[12:47]	Motor Loon 	There's not such thing as you're looking for in Second Life‚Ñ¢ White
[12:47]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	3D, whoever can develop and anti-hack/anti-copy for SL will have a marketable product that most online vendors will be interested in.
[12:47]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	this has been an ongoing issue sence basicly day one, and yet SL is still alive
[12:48]	Asterion Coen 	nal for sure, but it will be hard to make in place
[12:48]	Ramona Criss 	miss White about copybot is a very old and long story i have made many DMCA and yes LL dont make grid removal of items that was reported
[12:48]	Roccagloriosa (epicgordon.broome) 	I'm pretty sure no software exists that is able to filter out what random mass of polygonal data might be IP and what is not. :p
[12:48]	Asterion Coen 	in admeting the hackers and other crakers wont play with it as soon as the specifications are known
[12:49]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Ok... find someone to develop such a thing and I have several RL clients that will be intersted. Its not just an SL problem.
[12:49]	Ramona Criss 	and many good and big creators left sl coz of this
[12:49]	Asterion Coen 	nal yes
[12:49]	Nyx Linden 	moving on, so we can get to the next topic: "Possible recommended Poly values for avatar attachments. IE Poly count / render count / similar to LI but for worn items to discourage modeling every single shoelace. [ whiteRabbit0 ]"
[12:49]	Asterion Coen 	it couls be a marker, like dna, or image recognition, but the hardest part would be the huge databases to stocks infos !
[12:50]	Nyx Linden 	the display weight metric should work for attached objects, and that should give you an idea of how much your attachment stresses the renderer. The weights of all your attachments add up to your overall avatar's display weight, which is a debug display you can turn on
[12:51]	Motor Loon 	You dont need a copybot viewer to rip stuff from Second Life‚Ñ¢
[12:51]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Right
[12:51]	Motor Loon 	There's no magic to stop copybotting
[12:51]	Tiberious Neruda 	he's right
[12:51]	Asterion Coen 	motor yes, sadly
[12:51]	Nyx Linden 	as far as "recommended values" - that gets tricky :)
[12:51]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Nyx, is there a setable render limit in the Sl viewer?
[12:52]	Motor Loon 	teach the "customers" to request good mesh, and the creators will be "forced" to make it
[12:52]	Aki Shichiroji 	rigged sculpts. particularly on hair. fun times.
[12:52]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	You mean they go get Blender, max and Maya and are clueless about what they are doing. lol
[12:52]	Nyx Linden 	we do have numbers being reported on the land impact of a mesh before you upload it
[12:52]	Asterion Coen 	i personnaly had headackes with blender, so for a newbie (or maybe who will spend hours and hours on youtube)
[12:53]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	rigged sculpts!
[12:53]	Nyx Linden 	which should give a relevant bit of data regardless of whether the object is intended as an attachment
[12:53]	Aki Shichiroji 	i've been told, on occasion, that my work looks too much like it comes from a video game, because i don't go nuts with verts.
[12:53]	Aki Shichiroji 	‚óï‚Äø‚óï
[12:53]	Some Hoe (aya.niosaki) 	eeeeaaaaaaaah!!! <:0
[12:53]	Asterion Coen 	just tell your customer SL is a video game :)
[12:53]	Nyx Linden 	being told you create content that looks professionally made is not a bad thing :)
[12:53]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	I would think that is a good thing, Aki
[12:53]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Yes, and some experienced content designers are using higher poly items to compete in the SL market.
[12:53]	Drongle McMahon 	Nyx, there is no absolute display weight to compare things with. Can we have something like a whole-cene display weight, so we can see what peoportiopn is generated by each avatar'/attachment?
[12:54]	Asterion Coen 	(i still use regular prims, and im happy with them)
[12:54]	Asterion Coen 	so, my ask about progress about new prim types, attributes, etc.
[12:54]	Roccagloriosa (epicgordon.broome) 	Trying to educate content creators and customers on good modelling etiquette might be a more successful endeavour than just smacking down hard limits. Rigging zBrush meshes = bad, using auto-retopology tools = bad, et cetera.
[12:55]	Nyx Linden 	Drongle - the avatar render weight display turns on the totals for each avatar. Getting a count for an entire scene is a bit of a bigger challenge, though technically possible (would likely cause a slight performance hit)
[12:55]	Nyx Linden 	Indeed, communicating about best practices is very important
[12:55]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Sorry, but the average customer will only care about the visual smoothness of the clothing. In turn, many creators will also only care about that.
[12:56]	G. McAuley (gee.mcauley) 	I have been testing a program called Curvy 3D by aArtform that you can import an obj and export a sculpt map.
[12:56]	Nyx Linden 	the problem is that it is difficult to tell what is a button intended for a shirt, vs a full avatar vs a house. they're all just collections of triangles at upload time :)
[12:56]	Aki Shichiroji 	ugh. note to self - do not turn off 'are you sure' dialogue for control+q
[12:56]	Tiberious Neruda 	and then it's a race to 65,536 vertices...
[12:56]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	The only way you'd stop the abusive high poly clothing is upload limits.
[12:57]	Motor Loon 	Nonsense
[12:57]	Tiberious Neruda 	that' what the limit-is-
[12:57]	Asterion Coen 	or an optimisation tool
[12:57]	Aki Shichiroji 	sorry if this has been mentioned already, but i think it would be useful to at least provide some guidance in the Wiki
[12:57]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	That isn't nonsense at all.
[12:57]	Nyx Linden 	there are some tips and tricks hidden in the wiki, but we are looking for ways to make it more accessible
[12:57]	Motor Loon 	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Good_Building_Practices
[12:57]	Nyx Linden 	thanks for finding the link Motor :)
[12:57]	Asterion Coen 	hehe "hidden"
[12:58]	Motor Loon 	yw nyx ¬∞Õú¬∞
[12:58]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	/me sets limits on all uploads to 31 verities
[12:58]	Motor Loon 	figured you'd be looking for it ¬∞Õú¬∞
[12:58]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	White, the real challenge is only a few thousand SL users read anything about SL. It would be nice to have use stats on wiki and forum. But, I find people all the time that son;e know aboyt the wiki and some even don't know about the forum. I think it is next to impossible to reach most of the users for any purpose.
[12:58]	Nyx Linden 	we are hoping to continue to edit and add more information, provide a more comprehensive set of information
[12:59]	Nyx Linden 	its difficult to set hard limits though, as you don't know if someone is intending to put 100 houses down on a sim, or only one, but make it gigantic
[13:00]	Nyx Linden 	unfortunately I have another meeting to get to, but this is one of my favorite topics, so feel free to keep coming up with suggestions :)
[13:00]	Asterion Coen 	or ask Motor loon to stay connected 24/24. :)
[13:00]	Motor Loon 	¬∞Õú¬∞
[13:00]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	People have tried to educate about crazy amounts of sculpts and scripts until they are blue in the face. The average user doesn't care as long as they feel they look good.
[13:00]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Thx for your time Nyx
[13:00]	Nyx Linden 	thanks everyone for coming out!
[13:00]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Thanks for the meeting, Nyx.
[13:00]	Iva (ivanova.shostakovich) 	Thank you.
[13:00]	Aki Shichiroji 	Thanks for the meeting, Lindens :)
[13:00]	Bazz Fazz (vir.linden) 	Bye folks, thanks for sticking out the technical snags.
[13:00]	Asterion Coen 	thx nyx
[13:00]	Hydrogen (hydrogen.excelsior) 	thanks nyx
[13:00]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Thank you, Nyx.
[13:00]	Chubbalicious 	Thx peeps
[13:01]	Nyx Linden 	(also some meeting logs were posted earlier, I'll try to hunt down the remaining logs)
[13:01]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Does anyone have a log of the meeting?
[13:01]	Frans Charming 	Thanks Nyx! :)
[13:01]	Nyx Linden 	take care all!
Generated by the 'Wikify SL Chat Log' utility by DG Products for Second Life (DGP4SL)