Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2012.09.25

Simulator_User_Group
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== List of Speakers ==
Aeon Voom 	Andrew Linden 	Baker Linden
Davido Chrome 	Kelly Linden 	Lares Carter
Motor Loon 	Nalates Urriah 	Qie Niangao
Rex Cronon 	Sahkolihaa Contepomi	Simon Linden
Sovereign Engineer	TankMaster Finesmith	Theresa Tennyson
Tiberious Neruda 	 	
== Transcript ==
[12:01] Simon Linden: Hello everyone, I can get started on the news for rollouts...
[12:01] Rex Cronon: hi simon
[12:01] Rex Cronon: hi everybody
[12:01] Simon Linden: There was none today (as planned) since we didn't have new code in the RC channels
[12:02] Simon Linden: Tomorrow there will be 2 new versions in the 3 RC channels
[12:03] Simon Linden: One has back-end configuration work that should help things run better on new and future hardware
[12:03] Simon Linden: The other is a maintenance release with some bug fixes
[12:03] Simon Linden: The most interesting one is Baker's work supporting large groups
[12:04] Simon Linden: There are also a bunch of error notifications that have adjusted the message format so they can be translated on the viewer
[12:04] Motor Loon: Good stuff
[12:04] Tiberious Neruda: I think the large group fix will be very welcome... been hearing about that the past few weeks, and it sounds like a good thing :3
[12:05] Simon Linden: yeah, that's definitely a step in the right direction
[12:05] Aeon Voom: speaking about groups. whatever happened to the groupchat fix. i saw it in beta (ladt year?) on aditi. and then it poofed?
[12:05] Baker Linden: The public JIRA (which I think can still be viewed) has links to development viewers
[12:05] Simon Linden: The original group code wasn't built to scale to the large groups that have developed
[12:06] Motor Loon: who would have imagine 10.000+ residents in Second Life™ ,-)
[12:06] Simon Linden: That's about it for my news
[12:06] Andrew Linden: I don't have much news... just fixing bugs in my interestlist work
[12:06] Andrew Linden: which is up on aditi, in particular the region Ahern on aditi is running my code
[12:07] Tiberious Neruda: yeah... that's the other major 'group' fix... I think everyone's frustrated by the chat taking ages to show up
[12:07] Andrew Linden: and has some known bugs... need to deploy a few fixes later today.
[12:07] Theresa Tennyson: I've been playing Maj Jongg there.
[12:08] Simon Linden: Yes Tiberious - it's better than it used to be, but still annoyingly slow at times, even for small groups or impromptu chats
[12:08] Davido Chrome: Chat lag is a problem, bigger problem is that there doesn't seem to be message queuing. Things you say don't always show up in the right order.
[12:08] Andrew Linden: Also Balkanski and Beirne are on the new interestlist code.
[12:08] Davido Chrome: It happens in Local chat too..
[12:08] Simon Linden: Alve - that might be due to packet loss and re-trys
[12:09] Aeon Voom: there was a beta last year to fix the groupchat. i attended on the betagrid. but then the project simply vanished. are there any news in that field?
[12:09] Simon Linden: There are message queues, btw
[12:09] Davido Chrome: Simon, I think the same is trjue for scripts though. Which would be the cause of that Jira I filed.
[12:09] Theresa Tennyson: I think they partially fixed it so more and more people started chatting and they broke the fix.
[12:10] Andrew Linden: I heard some rumors about new plans to overhaul the group chat system, but as far as I know no one is actually working on that now.
[12:10] Davido Chrome: SCR-380
[12:10] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SCR-380
[#SCR-380] Object to object script messages sometimes fail - Second Life Bug Tracker
[12:10] TankMaster Finesmith: isn't that what baker is doing?
[12:11] Nalates Urriah: Aeon, are you thinking about the time when the Lab was testing X-Chat?
[12:11] Simon Linden: Theresa - I think you're right. Some improvements were made to the old system, and it's better, but the bar has been raised
[12:11] Andrew Linden: No, Baker was working on group member management, not group chat.
[12:11] TankMaster Finesmith: or are you refeing to more extensive pverhaul?
[12:11] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: X-Chat? You mean IRC?
[12:11] TankMaster Finesmith: ah, right
[12:11] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: X-Chat = IRC client.
[12:11] TankMaster Finesmith: irc won't work
[12:11] Simon Linden: Phoenix - no, Baker worked on being able to load a group's member list
[12:11] Simon Linden: Not group chat
[12:11] TankMaster Finesmith: yeh, yeah, I read it too quick :P
[12:11] Aeon Voom: sorry that i threw that one in. i was just curious
[12:12] Andrew Linden: I don't think we were ever testing X-Chat, which is an IRC client... but years ago we did some testing with a jabber backend chat system.
[12:12] TankMaster Finesmith: its funny though, LL had it all fixed for about a week, then rooled out an update again that broke it
[12:13] Andrew Linden: However, the jabber experiment was abandoned (this was at least three years ago, maybe four).
[12:13] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: How come?
[12:13] Aeon Voom: the groupchat thing is virtually a thorn in the side.
[12:13] TankMaster Finesmith: last commit to the XMPP project was 2011-07-06
[12:14] Aeon Voom: even if the group is small or only a few are online. can happen anytime
[12:14] Tiberious Neruda: yeah
[12:14] TankMaster Finesmith: group size doesn't matter, the server resource is shared
[12:14] Andrew Linden: We were looking to jabber to also fix some group voice stuff, but supporting changes there turned out to be hard.
[12:14] Theresa Tennyson: I usually only get group chats until at least a few lines into the conversation.
[12:15] Nalates Urriah: Sorry it was XMPP group chat that was being tried in Feb 2011
[12:15] Tiberious Neruda: happens even with 3-to-4-person conference chats
[12:15] Andrew Linden: So then we decided to try just fixing our own chat system
[12:15] Aeon Voom: andrew. funny enough. voice via group is more stable than chat
[12:15] Andrew Linden: so we did a pass, that did help a bit
[12:15] Andrew Linden: and we identified the work that would have to be done to finish the job
[12:15] Andrew Linden: but that work was put on hold
[12:15] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: :/
[12:15] Aeon Voom: ok
[12:16] Andrew Linden: and the work we were considering doing, I believe, would be more of a complete overhaul rather than finishing the current system
[12:16] Tiberious Neruda: I think it would be worth it, honestly
[12:16] Aeon Voom: sometimes thats necessary.
[12:16] Motor Loon: agree
[12:16] Andrew Linden: however that is currently at rumor stage... we're kicking the idea around but work has not started
[12:16] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: It needs to be started. Group chat has been broken for far too long.
[12:17] Aeon Voom: at least there is something rumblin' under the hood ;-)
[12:17] TankMaster Finesmith: we all will look forward to any improvement to the chat system
[12:17] Motor Loon: if it wasnt built to scale, its hard to "fix"... often a fresh start is better doing it right from the ground up
[12:17] Aeon Voom: motor loon speaks my language ;-)
[12:17] TankMaster Finesmith: as long as the new chat system brakes v1...
[12:17] TankMaster Finesmith runs
[12:17] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Someone will backport it. Just watch.
[12:17] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: :P
[12:17] Aeon Voom: yeah
[12:18] TankMaster Finesmith: lol, probably
[12:18] Motor Loon: Hopefully we'll get to SOMETHING that wont backport so we can get rid of that awful v1 codebase °͜°
[12:18] Sovereign Engineer: Singularirty will backport it :D!
[12:18] Theresa Tennyson: 1.23 was perfect, never crashed and if it farted, they'd smell like lilacs. Don't you know that?
[12:18] Nalates Urriah: IS there anyone other than the Sl 1.23 that is using V1 code?
[12:19] TankMaster Finesmith: I think singularity is the only active project now thats origonally based on v1, but now its mostly v2 under the hood
[12:19] Sovereign Engineer: Eh more v3 tank. :P
[12:19] TankMaster Finesmith: phoe and imp are both based on v1
[12:19] TankMaster Finesmith: v2, v3, same diff
[12:20] Aeon Voom: i got a funny bug/glitch in the new advanced creator tools: SCR-428
[12:20] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SCR-428
[#SCR-428] llTeleportAgentGlobalCoords throttles out when too many avatars on sim use this feature - Second Life Bug Tracker
[12:20] Nalates Urriah: Imprudence seems pretty much dead, or moving so slow one can't tell.
[12:20] TankMaster Finesmith: though there is some code in v3 thats nearly identical to v1
[12:20] Tiberious Neruda: yeah, seriously. v1's time is up, and everyone clinging to it needs to realize the viewer's -not- as horrendous as the beta v2 was
[12:20] Andrew Linden: BTW, talking about V1... in my new interestlist work I've pulled out the old "cloud" field data, that V1 used to place the cloud sprites.
[12:20] TankMaster Finesmith: both imp and phoe are no longer being updated
[12:20] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: That's because Kokura has been worked on for months now.
[12:20] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Kokua*
[12:21] Andrew Linden: So windlight clouds only going forward, soon.
[12:21] Tiberious Neruda: cool
[12:21] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: I turned off the old clouds as soon as Windlight came out in 2007.
[12:21] Aeon Voom: thats great. because the old clouds been a lag-nightmare. like all particles
[12:21] Tiberious Neruda: speaking of sprites... when can we actually use permanent sprites instead of particles?
[12:21] Theresa Tennyson: Sprites? That was from when like my GRAMMA played computer games.
[12:21] TankMaster Finesmith: wasn't old clouds pulled from the viewer during the last WL update?
[12:22] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: OpenGL 3 upgrade pulled them I think.
[12:22] TankMaster Finesmith: when region wl was added
[12:22] Andrew Linden: Yeah Sahkolihaa, but the server is still sending a trickle of data packets about the old clouds.
[12:22] Andrew Linden: Those will go away soon.
[12:22] Davido Chrome: Soemthing that would be is school algorithms, for flocks of birds and schools of fish.
[12:22] TankMaster Finesmith: ah, thats fine, andrew
[12:22] Davido Chrome: would be cool*
[12:22] TankMaster Finesmith: even phoe doesn't use them anymore
[12:22] Tiberious Neruda: I'd love to be able to replace these 6 particle generators I have with 6 sprite objects
[12:23] TankMaster Finesmith: the most used or second most used (depending on which stat you go by) viewer
[12:23] Andrew Linden: Some other protocols of V1 that we'd like to shutdown (lest we forget)... how V1 loads world map data --doesn't scale well.
[12:23] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Oh god the old map system.
[12:23] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: 'Blurry... blurry... blurry....'
[12:24] Aeon Voom: i got another question: is there some sort of office hour for the new advanced creator tools? i mean. it would be helpful if we could bounce off some ideas and share experiences. would help the entire project
[12:24] TankMaster Finesmith: would it be possible to have a region on the beta grid that doesn't have the legecy 1 stuff to test what brakes on these old viewers?
[12:24] Andrew Linden: As far as I know we still support retrieving map data via the old protocols, but we'll probably close those once the new avatar texture baking stuff is out across the booard.
[12:25] TankMaster Finesmith: aeon, later today at hippotropolis (at 3) is a content creator UG
[12:25] Andrew Linden: TankMaster, yes that is possible... as each legacy stuff is removed.
[12:25] Simon Linden: All our development code passes through Aditi before it hits the RCs, Phoenix, so it'll get there
[12:25] Nalates Urriah: Aeon, there is not group for that... Nyx's Content/Mesh is about as close as it gets Plus Geenz's as Tank said.
[12:26] TankMaster Finesmith: would be a good test to see what can be removed because the viewer isn't using it anymore
[12:26] Davido Chrome: Is it open to the public? I think I got booted from the beta testers because I had some issues back then and didn't get much done on the beta.
[12:26] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: And see where bandwidth could be saved.
[12:26] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Like the old clouds.
[12:26] Andrew Linden: I don't know about the "new advanced creator tools".
[12:27] Simon Linden: AFAIK it's open, AlveKatt
[12:27] Davido Chrome: Ah, so closed Beta is over?
[12:27] Andrew Linden: Sahkolihaa, yeah actually I like them too, at least the idea of volumetric clouds in a virtual world.
[12:27] TankMaster Finesmith: the one at 3 is open to all
[12:27] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: I meant regarding removing old clouds to see how bandwidth can be saved. :o
[12:27] TankMaster Finesmith: MS flight simulator has the option of volumetric clouds, andrew :D
[12:28] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Though, speaking of volumetric clouds ... Didn't Windlight SUPPOSED to have those?
[12:28] Andrew Linden: whoops, I misread your comment Sahkolihaa.
[12:28] TankMaster Finesmith: no, kili
[12:28] TankMaster Finesmith: to much of a performance hit, they said
[12:28] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Flight Simulator managed it when the ATI X850XT was the fastest card available at the time. :u
[12:29] Aeon Voom: yeah but the SL viewer has a completely different rendering pipeline
[12:29] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: I wouldn't say it was different in terms of cloud generation...
[12:29] TankMaster Finesmith: yeah, sl uses openGL, I don't know how well that type of particle effect runs on it
[12:29] Tiberious Neruda: FS was also DirectX, wasn't it?
[12:30] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Yes it was.
[12:30] Aeon Voom: i think so
[12:30] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: But OpenGL can still easily pull that off.
[12:30] TankMaster Finesmith: yes, flight sim is DX10
[12:30] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: No, 2003 was Dx9.
[12:30] Sahkolihaa Contepomi is speaking of 2003.
[12:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[12:30] Andrew Linden: I'm guessing flight sim wasn't also supporting clouds mixed with much solid geometry... it was probably optimized for cloudy skies, a ground field, and a few aircraft.
[12:31] Tiberious Neruda: ..true as well
[12:31] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Pretty much. Storms could hit your FPS, but the graphics hardware back then was also much, much weaker than what we've got today.
[12:31] Tiberious Neruda: but I think they did have building geometry in the cities
[12:31] TankMaster Finesmith: its used for clouds you can fly through, and fog
[12:32] Theresa Tennyson wants a volumetric moon.
[12:32] Tiberious Neruda: heheh
[12:32] Tiberious Neruda: that could be kinda fun
[12:32] Davido Chrome: I wonder if you could generate a hightmap based on prims that are building to get rain that doesn't rain inside?
[12:32] Simon Linden: Next you'll want to fly there :)
[12:32] Tiberious Neruda: ...does the physics engine support objects having their own 'gravity'?
[12:32] Theresa Tennyson: Well, chah...
[12:33] Davido Chrome: Tib, There is a setting for it. You can make an object have no gravity, and it will just float away as you bump into it.
[12:33] Tiberious Neruda: no, no
[12:33] Aeon Voom: generate gravity
[12:33] Tiberious Neruda: I mean, like, if you made a 64x64x64 sphere
[12:33] Aeon Voom: its own gravity field
[12:33] TankMaster Finesmith: dare you to do that to the moon
[12:33] Tiberious Neruda: Aeon has it
[12:33] Rex Cronon: u want to make black holes?
[12:33] Davido Chrome: You can set negative gravity too, but that feels like a good way to loose prims...
[12:33] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Avatars with their own gravity field ... Now I'm reminded of Family Guy.
[12:33] Aeon Voom: no no. own gravity field
[12:33] Tiberious Neruda: being able to walk on it
[12:33] Davido Chrome: Oooooh.
[12:34] Davido Chrome: I want that too!!!!
[12:34] Aeon Voom: thats actually a fascinating idea
[12:34] Tiberious Neruda: (and around it)
[12:34] Tiberious Neruda: ....you ever see a level called 'Mad Space'?
[12:34] Davido Chrome: Damn, that would make for interesting simball arenas!
[12:34] Aeon Voom: also fascinating it would be if somone could alter the ammount of gravity in a given sim.... zero-g adventures... hurp
[12:35] Tiberious Neruda: allowing the avatar to set its own friction value...
[12:35] Motor Loon: I suppose you could make an AO that supported that using raycasting
[12:35] Theresa Tennyson: I can hear it now - "They can put an avatar on the moon but still can't fix chat lag."
[12:35] Davido Chrome: XD
[12:35] Aeon Voom: lol
[12:35] Tiberious Neruda: ROFL!
[12:36] Tiberious Neruda: but it featured planet-like objects that had their own gravity pulls on the player
[12:36] Davido Chrome: But first, bigger regions so SL doesn't feel so cramped.
[12:36] Aeon Voom: i got a question andrew: would it be, theoretically possible to disallow a given avatar to recieve sim minimap data ?
[12:37] Nalates Urriah: Or turn it off in a region?
[12:37] Aeon Voom: for example
[12:37] Aeon Voom: yes nal
[12:37] Andrew Linden: Aeon, most of the minimap data must be sent just for the viewer to be able to render the region....
[12:37] Andrew Linden: the terrain and objects for example
[12:37] Simon Linden: yeah, big regions have been a pet project of mine ... unfortunately it's an incredible hassle to get right
[12:37] Andrew Linden: the only "minimap special" data is avatar locations
[12:38] Andrew Linden: however most of that is also sent to the viewer already, at least all the avatars in-view.
[12:38] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Some TPVs allow the avatar locations to be updated locally based on those in draw distance and are rendering.
[12:38] Nalates Urriah: For combat games being able to block the avatar data on a mini map would add to the play.
[12:38] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: (So they update silky smooth, for example.)
[12:38] Aeon Voom: the point i ask is: in many combat games in SL. players simply "minimap" you. and many people are quite pissed off by that. and there is no real solution to disallow people to use the minimap, except you use the RLVa api. which then puts you at trust with the viewer developers.
[12:38] Andrew Linden: I think there are some mini-map specific data packets that have approximate avatar locations for avatars that are out of view
[12:38] Davido Chrome: Simon, personal opnion here, but I really think that would help new users to stay. SL does feel kind of cramped with these small regions, where crossing the boundaries is almost based on luck.
[12:39] Andrew Linden: but I think the answer, Aeon, is "yes, theoretically possible"
[12:39] Simon Linden: I totally agree, Alve - and imagine how much better driving, sailing or flying would be in 1 km x 1 km or similar large areas
[12:39] Andrew Linden: It could probably be made a per-region setting that could disable mini-map avatar locations
[12:39] Andrew Linden: maybe even a per-estate setting... but a bit harder
[12:39] Tiberious Neruda: 1024x1024?
[12:40] TankMaster Finesmith: 1k would be nice
[12:40] Tiberious Neruda: ...I wouldn't mind that
[12:40] TankMaster Finesmith: goos start anyway
[12:40] Nalates Urriah: That would allow surprise attacks in comabt games and make it possible to escape when being chased.
[12:40] Andrew Linden: Actually, I think 1k would be the better round number
[12:40] Aeon Voom: 1k is a good measurement
[12:40] Andrew Linden: the reason we picked powers of 2 originally was because we were sending DCT compressed data for the heightfield
[12:40] Tiberious Neruda: ...why not just go with the current power of 2?
[12:40] Andrew Linden: which is easier to code for powers of 2
[12:40] Andrew Linden: but, as we know now... the DCT compression stuff is not a good idea
[12:41] Simon Linden: Bigger regions would probably be multiples of 256 to fit the existing grid, but that's a minor detail
[12:41] Tiberious Neruda: problem is, powers of 2 have been established
[12:41] Aeon Voom: if bigger regions would become available.. i would take them at once
[12:41] Tiberious Neruda: current max prim size, sim build area dimensions, you name it
[12:41] Rex Cronon: there is nothing wrong with powers of 2
[12:41] Aeon Voom: would convert all my current regions to it
[12:41] Andrew Linden: oh right... yeah it would be hard to fix larger regions in SL as it is now unless they were powers of 2
[12:42] TankMaster Finesmith: I thhink bugger regions, even if the max prim count didn't scale 1:1, would be a hit
[12:42] Aeon Voom: yeah i agree tank.
[12:42] Rex Cronon: the thing is. what is the highest power that u can use:)
[12:42] Andrew Linden: actually Rex, it would be easier to do position translations in 1k blocks, rather than powers of 2
[12:42] Andrew Linden: that is, translating the position known in one region to the relative position in a neighboring region.
[12:42] Aeon Voom: i mean. in opensim they use "homesteads" and make a 1km² field that basically uses one full server
[12:43] Theresa Tennyson: I think what a lot of people would settle for would be regions that were the same as a current full region but taking up a bigger area, especially for vehicles.
[12:43] Aeon Voom: so you basically use 2 full sims
[12:43] Aeon Voom: i think..
[12:43] Tiberious Neruda: ....so you convert 16 sims to 1000x1000... where does the extra go?
[12:43] Aeon Voom: to the linden gods as sacrifice
[12:43] TankMaster Finesmith: to lala land
[12:44] Andrew Linden: to.... boundary conditions
[12:44] Tiberious Neruda: that's why I think 1024x1024 just fits better
[12:44] Tiberious Neruda: ah
[12:44] Motor Loon: lala land is already a crowded place as far as Second Life™ goes
[12:44] Aeon Voom: haha
[12:44] Tiberious Neruda: so boundary areas 12m wide on each side?
[12:44] Rex Cronon: come on multiplication by 2 is very easier and very fast. u just shift left one bit
[12:45] Tiberious Neruda: at that point, why not bump up the biggest prim size to 100m³?
[12:45] Davido Chrome: 128!
[12:45] TankMaster Finesmith: 1k prims on 1k regions would be nice
[12:45] Simon Linden: I've spent some serious time looking at large regions ... it's a huge project to do it right, involving a bunch of messaging changes to the viewer (like layer data, object positions, etc), region-to-region communication (all the neighbors) our back end (the grid layout itself) ... it touches almost everything in some way.
[12:45] Simon Linden: which is why we're where we are today :P
[12:45] Motor Loon: no doubt
[12:45] Tiberious Neruda: then how are open grids able to do it now?
[12:45] Rex Cronon: u could build it on top of existing sims
[12:46] Davido Chrome: Simon, better get started then. :D
[12:46] TankMaster Finesmith: lol
[12:46] Theresa Tennyson: Open grids don't have a legacy.
[12:46] Aeon Voom: then again simon. SL needs to grow "bigger". think about it that way. alot of activites on the grid. like flying, sailing and driving needs to happen in a very very cramped space
[12:46] TankMaster Finesmith: im sure simon can knock it out in an evening, right/
[12:46] TankMaster Finesmith: "how hard can it be?" :P
[12:47] Aeon Voom: haha
[12:47] Simon Linden: open grids emulate a bunch of regions inside one -- I believe teh viewer thinks it sees multiple regions, while the simulator acts like a bunch of them. It's an interesting idea, but doesn't scale to a large grid well
[12:47] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: jeremy Clarkson comment. I should slap you. :p
[12:47] Theresa Tennyson: If region crossings WORKED, of course, it wouldn't be as much as an issue.
[12:47] Aeon Voom: i know its alot of work. and nothing comes for granted. but i really believe that it would do good to the grid and the experience in it
[12:48] Tiberious Neruda: yeah
[12:48] Davido Chrome: Checkpoints for racing would have to talk via IM I guess.
[12:48] Simon Linden: WE need to get rid of region crossings - the expectation that you can stop, serialize all your AV data, scripts, etc, send it across the country to another server farm, re-build it all, and have no lag is unrealistic
[12:48] Aeon Voom: agreed simon
[12:48] Tiberious Neruda: sometimes you just want to run at 30m/sec
[12:49] Aeon Voom: i mean we did saw another concept too. where you do not pay per region+prims. but only for data stored+max avas. the space was totally irellevant
[12:49] Rex Cronon: so. u put portals to move between sims?
[12:49] Davido Chrome: How does WOW do it? Some kind of Bittorrent thing? Where you maybe technically is in your own reagion that follows with you and loads the thingsthat it moves over?
[12:49] Aeon Voom: i know that SL's architecture is totally wrapped around the single sim as the highest unit right now. thats sometimes quite.. annoying
[12:49] Motor Loon: please dont compare WOW with Second Life™
[12:49] Rex Cronon: then there would be no need for sims to be next to eachother
[12:50] Aeon Voom: i did not motor loon
[12:50] Aeon Voom: :)
[12:50] TankMaster Finesmith: SL: I can't believe this isn't WOW!
[12:50] Davido Chrome: I didn't either, technically. XD
[12:50] Simon Linden: Yes Rex - I think it needs to be designed into the experience. A gate, door, stop sign in the road -- something like that
[12:50] Tiberious Neruda: what
[12:50] Baker Linden: WoW is different is that the entirety of assets are stored locally on your computer, and things like cities and other assets don't change
[12:50] Rex Cronon: u get islands
[12:51] Theresa Tennyson: Is there any sort of predictive logic planned for region crossing?
[12:51] Aeon Voom: and now we're back at the bothersome simcrossing topic.
[12:51] Tiberious Neruda: that would completely kill what SL's supposed to be. May as well not even -have- mainland at that point
[12:51] Simon Linden: Some Theresa - that's why you get the rubber-banding jump when you cross. The viewer isn't doing good predictions
[12:51] Baker Linden: it can stream from that static data from the PC much faster, while only sending player position updates to the server. SL doesn't have that luxury.
[12:51] Aeon Voom: no offense. but its also a thorn in the side
[12:52] Aeon Voom: and yes baker. that was the major difference with the other system. you had to download the region upfront.
[12:52] Baker Linden: It is, but it's the price that is paid for having a world with all user-created content
[12:52] Theresa Tennyson: I was thilnking something like how air-traffic control worked (works) where some of the data on a vehicle is handed to the next airspace controller before it arrives.
[12:53] Theresa Tennyson: Oooo, vehicle servers?
[12:53] Aeon Voom: vehicle servers?
[12:53] Andrew Linden: Theresa, yes that idea has been kicked about a lot. Theoretically possible, I still believe.
[12:53] Tiberious Neruda: doesn't the grid do that already?
[12:53] Simon Linden: We're thought a lot about that, but the biggest and slowest part is script data, Theresa - and that changes every frame the script runs, so it's difficult to stay ahead of the changing state
[12:53] Davido Chrome: I still think it would be cool if you could Host rooms in your house on your own computer.
[12:54] Andrew Linden: Right Simon, but not ALL of the script data. Most of it doesn't change
[12:54] Motor Loon: would be kinda cool if vehicles scirpts was handled by a global resource
[12:54] Rex Cronon: we need a trailer:)
[12:54] Simon Linden: Right, it all depends on the script itself
[12:54] Andrew Linden: and we could load the data in its current state, and then send a compressed binary diff of the final version.
[12:54] Rex Cronon: that we can connect to any sim:)
[12:54] Simon Linden: Alve - you might not want to open your firewall at home that much :)
[12:54] Andrew Linden: Theoretically possible... the devils are in the details of course.
[12:54] Davido Chrome: Simon, point taken...
[12:54] Kelly Linden: the details there are very, very devilish.
[12:55] Aeon Voom: i can imagine
[12:55] Tiberious Neruda: I wouldn't mind that, so long as it was limited in use
[12:55] Tiberious Neruda: ....I can already see people wanting to send ever script to this global resource...
[12:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[12:56] Tiberious Neruda: most scripts really wouldn't need that
[12:56] Aeon Voom: but as i said before here. most crashes between simborders result from the viewer getting overloaded with data. thats one reason why we pilots try to fly at 300 meters and higher. or else the "ground clutter", catches us
[12:56] Davido Chrome: Global resource could be one of those Premium perks.
[12:56] Tiberious Neruda: bad Alvekitty, bad...
[12:56] Davido Chrome: I am just trying to offer them some incentive. XD
[12:56] TankMaster Finesmith: the viewer uses an absolute tone of non standard ports and connections, enough that one person connecting to one server can kill low end routers.. theres not really any reslistic way they would handle 50 avatars connecting to a region at home
[12:57] Tiberious Neruda: I mean, I'm with you to the point that there should be a limit to what you send to the global resource...
[12:57] Tiberious Neruda: but to lock that behind a premium wall is bad
[12:57] Davido Chrome: Tank. Oh. I was thinking more private home. Not a full sim. Like the inside of my house.
[12:57] Andrew Linden reads back to figure out what "Global Resource" means...
[12:57] TankMaster Finesmith: ah
[12:58] TankMaster Finesmith: you can use opengrid for that
[12:58] Theresa Tennyson: Airspace is a controlled "resource" in RL, at least the commercial airways.
[12:58] Tiberious Neruda: Andrew: [12:54] Motor Loon: would be kinda cool if vehicles scirpts was handled by a global resource
[12:58] Davido Chrome: Tank, but I can't invite my SL friends there without having them disconnect from SL.
[12:59] Motor Loon: thanks for reposting my typoo's °͜°
[12:59] TankMaster Finesmith: so you do want a region server...
[12:59] Davido Chrome: I mean, they can't wear their avatars.
[12:59] Davido Chrome: Tank, no, just a private room.
[12:59] Rex Cronon: it could be something as simple as drag-drop your ave from the sl-viewer window to your your sim window:)
[12:59] Andrew Linden: I'm trying to understand how the "global resource" would work, but I come up with "magic sauce".
[13:00] Aeon Voom: lmao
[13:00] Aeon Voom: gummybear juice andrew
[13:00] TankMaster Finesmith: its done automagicly
[13:00] Rex Cronon: global resource=a db of things
[13:00] Andrew Linden: like... a central asset system?
[13:00] Motor Loon: central servers that handled vehicle's scriptside so you wouldn't have to pass running scripts from one server to another during crossings...
[13:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[13:00] Kelly Linden: vehicles are one of the poster child cases for requiring low latency to work well, and an external 'global resource' running those scripts would be decidedly not low latency
[13:00] Rex Cronon: i think so
[13:00] Davido Chrome: Would need to be a database of very geometric detail in SL....
[13:00] Theresa Tennyson: Well, we're getting new servers just for rendering avatars now...
[13:00] Kelly Linden: requiring low latency in scripts that is.
[13:01] Motor Loon: ofcourse, I could likely make a list with 1000 problems you'd get from it
[13:01] Rex Cronon: although each ave could have their own
[13:01] Davido Chrome: Every*
[13:01] Andrew Linden: kelly is right... the vehicle "action" that is created by the script has a bit of code that runs *every physics timestep*
[13:01] Motor Loon: probably easier to "just" fix simcrossings
[13:01] Tiberious Neruda: yeah
[13:01] Tiberious Neruda: and bigger sims would mean fewer crossings
[13:01] Andrew Linden: the vehicle behavior is much more lower-level and responsive than its outer LSL script
[13:02] Motor Loon: actually, I think the current crossings are damn fine - when they dont fail... if we could "just" have them more stable, I'd be super happy
[13:02] Aeon Voom: yep tiberious
[13:02] Kelly Linden: I'm off to lunch. Have a good week. :) o/
[13:02] Aeon Voom: the crossings are still very unstable.
[13:02] Andrew Linden: Thanks for coming everyone.
[13:02] Aeon Voom: you too kelly
[13:03] Davido Chrome: Thank you Lindens!
[13:03] Rex Cronon: tc kelly, andrew, simon
[13:03] Tiberious Neruda: but maybe more data should be sent to the sims an avatar is a child agent of?
[13:03] Qie Niangao: Thanks Lindens.
[13:03] Rex Cronon: tc everybody and have a nice day:)
[13:03] Theresa Tennyson: They'd be GREAT if it weren't for all the stupid AVATARS everywhere.
[13:03] Baker Linden: Thank you for coming everyone
[13:03] Simon Linden: Thanks everyone for coming today and the great chat
[13:03] Rex Cronon: ban all the avis:)
[13:03] Aeon Voom: lol
[13:04] Lares Carter: Thanks for the meeting. :)
Simulator_User_Group
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