Community Tools User Group/13-October-2011

==Attendees List==
*The Man From Del Monte (adamburp.adamczyk)
*Daniel Voyager (daniel.voyager)
*Jeremy Linden (jeremy.linden)
*Knowl Paine (knowl.paine)
*lonetorus Habilis (lonetorus.habilis)
*Melvin Starbrook (melvin.starbrook)
*Nal (nalates.urriah)
*Rand Linden (rand.linden)
*Second Life (second.life)
*Time Minder (time.minder)
*Torben (torben.trautman)
*Ugleh Ulrik (ugleh.ulrik)
==Transcript for Thursday October 13, 2011==
[13:04]	Jeremy Linden 	Jeremy Linden waits for his chair to rez.
[13:05]	lonetorus Habilis 	lonetorus Habilis waits for his locker to get autoreturned
[13:05]	Melvin Starbrook 	tala all
[13:05]	lonetorus Habilis 	jeremy, why dont you set autoreturn to something more user group visitor frienddly, like 30 minutes?
[13:06]	Jeremy Linden 	I might, lonetorus. I'll need to take a survey of all the stuff I've got here, though, since I didn't initially own the plot. It wouldn't do for all this stuff to get returned!
[13:06]	lonetorus Habilis 	especially not the lsl anti autoreturn bug has been patched ;)
[13:07]	Jeremy Linden 	One of the reasons I originally turned off building was because we had a bunch of griefers one week. I suppose that hasn't happened in awhile...
[13:07]	lonetorus Habilis 	jeremy, but surely you can redecorate it, or is it just a temporary ownership?
[13:07]	lonetorus Habilis 	or are others still using it for user groups?
[13:08]	Jeremy Linden 	More like I haven't had the time to figure out what the ideal parcel permissions would be here once Jon left :-P
[13:08]	lonetorus Habilis 	im trying to get builder friendly enviroments for all the user groups i go to, i like to sit and whittle away at some sculpt while listening to the chat
[13:08]	The Man From Del Monte (adamburp.adamczyk)	do we have an genda this week jerenmey?
[13:08]	Torben (torben.trautman) 	this is now Jeremy's office hour with a biweekly guest appearance from Rand ;)
[13:08]	The Man From Del Monte (adamburp.adamczyk)	jeremy*
[13:09]	Jeremy Linden 	Heh! It's come full circle... This used to be my office hour location waaay back.
[13:09]	Torben (torben.trautman) 	all the great things come back one day xD
[13:09]	Jeremy Linden 	Anyway, I don't have any specific agenda for today. As always the user group page is at https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Community_Tools_User_Group
[13:09]	Jeremy Linden 	However, most of those things are best handled by Lexie, and she's going to be out for another few weeks :-(
[13:10]	lonetorus Habilis 	hehehe, thats cool when that happens, i wonder how soon it will be before qarl starts having office hours at his sim again, now with hissoon to be comissioned programming work
[13:10]	The Man From Del Monte (adamburp.adamczyk)	not prying, but is she okay?
[13:10]	The Man From Del Monte (adamburp.adamczyk)	if yu can say
[13:11]	Jeremy Linden 	I actually don't know, and it wouldn't be proper for me to say if I did. All I know is she's supposed to be back in the beginning of November.
[13:11]	The Man From Del Monte (adamburp.adamczyk)	that's fair enough - i did say not prying, jsut wondered if she was okay
[13:11]	Jeremy Linden 	As for Rand... I'm not sure where he's at today!
[13:11]	Knowl Paine 	that is good news
[13:12]	Knowl Paine 	no real change til she gets back is not great news
[13:12]	Torben (torben.trautman) 	I added a topic to the agenda
[13:13]	Jeremy Linden 	Well, for those of you following mesh news, there's another mesh update coming soon that I've been working on documentation for.
[13:13]	Knowl Paine 	:)
[13:13]	lonetorus Habilis 	what does the chnage involve?
[13:13]	Melvin Starbrook 	trying out the development viewr now :)
[13:13]	Jeremy Linden 	From a reference standpoint, one of the big changes is that "prim equivalence" is going to be called "land impact". It's the same number, but it makes clear that land usage is not the same as number of prims. :-)
[13:13]	Melvin Starbrook 	wondering how i can make it stop rebaking everything over and over again lol
[13:13]	Knowl Paine 	lol
[13:14]	lonetorus Habilis 	so, a renaming, thats like a pig with lipstick, parden my french
[13:15]	lonetorus Habilis 	an not your table of course, thats policy XD
[13:15]	Jeremy Linden 	Maybe. Except now it's really clear that you're talking about the lipstick, not the pig!
[13:15]	Knowl Paine 	yes
[13:15]	lonetorus Habilis 	(referring to the much hated and confusing land impact calculations)
[13:15]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Using PE was a poor choice of terms. The change is a good thing.
[13:16]	lonetorus Habilis 	a friend made a mesh house, it was 2 prims with roof, and 3 prims if she removed the roof
[13:16]	Jeremy Linden 	Some of you may also have noticed that your billing options have changed slightly. We've been moving international customers over to the same billing system as US Residents.
[13:16]	Jeremy Linden 	I'm currently working on updating the help docs for that, too.
[13:16]	Melvin Starbrook 	lol
[13:17]	Torben (torben.trautman) 	so billing is back to normal and that crappy experimenting is over?
[13:17]	lonetorus Habilis 	has there been any further thoughts on best practices regarding content creation, its something i have brought up in the past, actually since the beginning of closed mesh beta
[13:17]	Jeremy Linden 	I can't really comment on that, Torben, but it appears to be somewhat simplified.
[13:18]	The Man From Del Monte (adamburp.adamczyk)	torbe i hear ya
[13:18]	The Man From Del Monte (adamburp.adamczyk)	let's get back to the old system that worked
[13:18]	lonetorus Habilis 	ie, a wiki guide on content creation, espevially geared towards mesh texture optimizations
[13:18]	The Man From Del Monte (adamburp.adamczyk)	instead of getting emails saying "hey you owe us money" and not our fault
[13:18]	Jeremy Linden 	Actually, I had a watercooler discussion about best practices with Oz yesterday. Do you think if I started a wiki page for various best practices that Residents would help me out with vital info?
[13:18]	lonetorus Habilis 	mesh _and_ texture XD
[13:19]	Knowl Paine 	it a good idea
[13:19]	lonetorus Habilis 	at least its a start, the issue here is, that you need input from ppl like, andrew, nyx, runitai etc
[13:19]	Jeremy Linden 	Not to mention things like "make your resizer scripts delete themselves from attachments once they've done their job" :-)
[13:19]	lonetorus Habilis 	making our own guides puts us nowhere nearer the goal
[13:19]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	You can try it and see. Some bloggers will advertise the effort and some posts on SLUniverse will get it more attention.
[13:19]	lonetorus Habilis 	as the point is that the best practices should be from the pov of the engine coders
[13:20]	Knowl Paine 	it should also include the most basic first steps to getting started
[13:20]	Jeremy Linden 	Maybe, but the engine coders aren't necessarily content creators. They might not know the best tricks for getting the best results for the fewest triangles, etc.
[13:20]	lonetorus Habilis 	when im working on rl 3d engines, i can always ask my progreammer what he thinks is reasonable texture sizes, polygon count etc for his engine on given hardware
[13:21]	Ugleh Ulrik 	Can i safely assume this group also talks about ideas and suggestions about the Marketplace?
[13:21]	lonetorus Habilis 	some things are of cource obvious, like texture sizes, you see it quite often, jeewlery or shoes that contains 50+ mb of textures
[13:21]	lonetorus Habilis 	lemme rez you an example of that XD
[13:21]	Knowl Paine 	as related to the Forum I think
[13:22]	lonetorus Habilis 	its on my head
[13:22]	Jeremy Linden 	Heh. We're actually getting a little off-topic. This user group is meant to address issues with the Lithium platform (forums, blogs, and knowledge base software). As well as wiki articles and online help.
[13:22]	lonetorus Habilis 	thats over 60mb of texture data
[13:22]	Knowl Paine 	yes
[13:22]	lonetorus Habilis 	on that one shoe
[13:22]	lonetorus Habilis 	a pretty known brand aswell
[13:22]	lonetorus Habilis 	(this copy i ahev is copybotted)
[13:23]	lonetorus Habilis 	and it kills me a little bit every time i see things like this in sl
[13:23]	lonetorus Habilis 	also tricks on how to use info from the viewver to help your builds
[13:23]	lonetorus Habilis 	ie the texture panel (ctrl + shift + 3) that will show you texture sizes on selected objects
[13:23]	Jeremy Linden 	Well then the best practice would be something like, "Use textures that are just large enough to look right from 'x' distance in order to minimize loading time and streaming cost."
[13:24]	Knowl Paine 	any word on changes to ranks, many weeks ago Rand mentioned he would increase the Kudo limit of 4 per hour, that change doesn't appear to have been applied.
[13:24]	lonetorus Habilis 	yeah, probably better to give some examples, like, 256x256 non tiled is apropriate for objects up to 4m^3
[13:24]	Knowl Paine 	2 q's there
[13:25]	Jeremy Linden 	Hey Knowl. I haven't heard anything about Kudos changes, and I'm actually not sure if Rand has the ability to change that. I'll ask him about it next time I see him!
[13:25]	Knowl Paine 	ty
[13:25]	Jeremy Linden 	I also haven't heard anything about ranks; I assume that would be a Lexie thing :-/
[13:26]	Knowl Paine 	I think it is Lithium thing
[13:26]	Jeremy Linden 	Hey lonetorus, it sounds like you've got a lot of very useful data for the best practices page. I'm gonna create it right now!
[13:26]	lonetorus Habilis 	\o/
[13:27]	Knowl Paine 	I look forward to reading it, idk much about mesh
[13:27]	Knowl Paine 	I've been reading, add some 3Dmax tips
[13:28]	Knowl Paine 	or pointers
[13:28]	Jeremy Linden 	Well I imagine mesh will be a big part of it, but there are tons of good practices out there for any kind of content creation in SL. Texturing, scripting, animation, sounds, gestures...
[13:28]	Knowl Paine 	ahh
[13:28]	lonetorus Habilis 	exactly
[13:28]	lonetorus Habilis 	and the mesh stuff is still pretty much in the dark
[13:28]	Second Life 	Nosmo King (nosmo) is now known as Nosmo King.
[13:28]	lonetorus Habilis 	the PE is fiendishly hard to work with
[13:29]	Jeremy Linden 	Yeah, I added a bit of language to the updated articles for the new mesh release to help clarify land impact a bit.
[13:30]	Jeremy Linden 	Is there any particular part of it you're having trouble with?
[13:30]	lonetorus Habilis 	i was part of the mesh closed beta, but now im not touching it untill some clearer documentation on the PE and best practices in this regard, because as it stands now i can more often than not make more with good old sculpts (less prims) than i can with mesh
[13:31]	Melvin Starbrook 	wish i could make the viewer work at all first..
[13:31]	Melvin Starbrook 	all is blurry now :/
[13:31]	lonetorus Habilis 	its hard to figure out what in a specific build will impact the PE
[13:31]	Jeremy Linden 	Ok, basic page is up: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_creation_best_practices
[13:31]	lonetorus Habilis 	so you end up trying all sort of things
[13:31]	lonetorus Habilis 	making lots and lots of test imports (on beta grid, otherwise you go bankrupt instantly)
[13:31]	lonetorus Habilis 	XD
[13:32]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	It took me a bit to find this, but Drongle does a good job of explanning PE/LI here: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/Question-about-prim-equivalents-land-impact/m-p/1163121#M7859
[13:32]	Jeremy Linden 	Basically, something gets calculated by Land Impact rather than prim count if it's got any mesh objects linked to it... OR if the "physics type" (new thing) is set to anything besides "prim".
[13:33]	lonetorus Habilis 	yeh, he was in the closed beta aswell, and seems he really helped a lot, very active person
[13:33]	Jeremy Linden 	Oh, actually, I just remembered:
[13:34]	Jeremy Linden 	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mesh/FAQ_for_mesh_content_creators
[13:34]	Jeremy Linden 	Dan helped me put that together, and I got a lot of input from the Mesh team as well.
[13:35]	lonetorus Habilis 	lonetorus Habilis takes a look :)
[13:35]	Knowl Paine 	how many prim types?, the old 10 limit the new larger ones, sculpts and mesh? 4?
[13:35]	lonetorus Habilis 	i tried making this cactus as mesh, but meh it always ends up more than 2 prims
[13:36]	The Man From Del Monte (adamburp.adamczyk)	i love typos
[13:36]	The Man From Del Monte (adamburp.adamczyk)	searching bagman linde,. put it batman linden
[13:36]	Jeremy Linden 	Did you get any results?
[13:36]	The Man From Del Monte (adamburp.adamczyk)	na :(
[13:37]	Knowl Paine 	the 670 I think
[13:37]	Knowl Paine 	670 Lindens at the forum search results
[13:37]	Second Life 	This object is not for sale.
[13:37]	lonetorus Habilis 	heh, i have a script somewhere, from SLB6 that sends a nc or object to every single linden ever emplyed at ll
[13:38]	Jeremy Linden 	Oy!
[13:38]	lonetorus Habilis 	im sorry, you didnt like the cupcakes? ;)
[13:38]	The Man From Del Monte (adamburp.adamczyk)	gimmee!!!
[13:39]	The Man From Del Monte (adamburp.adamczyk)	The Man From Del Monte starts looking for all the good stuff
[13:39]	Jeremy Linden 	Haha. I actually get tons of help requests because my name is on every single KB article as a "top contributor". People think it means I worked on every feature ever :-)
[13:39]	The Man From Del Monte (adamburp.adamczyk)	i will give you credit there jeremy, you DO rank up there as one of the bgest ones i've met
[13:39]	The Man From Del Monte (adamburp.adamczyk)	best*
[13:39]	Jeremy Linden 	Whew, for a second there I thought you said "biggest".
[13:40]	lonetorus Habilis 	rockstar coders like falcon or runitai are still only as good as their documentation ;)
[13:40]	Jeremy Linden 	Indeed. And they both help me out a ton when I need to understand the technical stuff for the docs.
[13:41]	Jeremy Linden 	Aha, Rand's on his way now!
[13:42]	Jeremy Linden 	...in theory!
[13:42]	Torben (torben.trautman) 	hi rand
[13:42]	Jeremy Linden 	Heya Rand.
[13:42]	Daniel Voyager 	Hey Rand
[13:42]	lonetorus Habilis 	yeah, thats good they help out, egocentric loners dont have a place on a team effort XD
[13:43]	The Man From Del Monte (adamburp.adamczyk)	hey rand
[13:43]	Jeremy Linden 	Heh. If the developers didn't help explain things to me, there'd be very little useful documentation for new features! :-)
[13:43]	The Man From Del Monte (adamburp.adamczyk)	muggisn here came up wit ha GREAT prank last night but wasn't sure how jeremy and rand would react
[13:43]	The Man From Del Monte (adamburp.adamczyk)	courtesy of the landing point at boardroom, i was my toilet av, and evry single person gfell into me
[13:44]	Rand Linden 	Hopefully i wont crash this time
[13:44]	lonetorus Habilis 	just look at that network admin from san fransisco who ended up denying access to the government network, because he thoght everyone else was not competent enough, he even denied the mayors request for the passwords
[13:44]	lonetorus Habilis 	hello rand :)
[13:44]	Rand Linden 	Howdy!
[13:44]	The Man From Del Monte (adamburp.adamczyk)	The Man From Del Monte waves hi to rand
[13:44]	Rand Linden 	Maybe I will rez eventually... :-(
[13:45]	Torben (torben.trautman) 	Rand has boobies today
[13:45]	Rand Linden 	sorry im so late
[13:45]	Jeremy Linden 	Rand - I think we had one question for you so far. Knowl wanted to know if you had a chance to raise the limit on Kudos-per-hour in Lithium.
[13:45]	Torben (torben.trautman) 	we might call you Ruth Linden today ;)
[13:45]	Rand Linden 	lol Ruth Linden
[13:45]	Rand Linden 	No, i dont belive we have raised the kudos limit
[13:46]	Rand Linden 	what do you think it should be Knowl?
[13:46]	Rand Linden 	i.e. the limit
[13:47]	Knowl Paine 	I think that my minutes online vs post read or viewed would be a good factor
[13:47]	Knowl Paine 	to review
[13:47]	Knowl Paine 	I think I read about 50 post and hour, there are double selections in there
[13:47]	Rand Linden 	ok let me look into it. Since Lexie is out, these kinds of things have sort of fallen through the cracks
[13:47]	Knowl Paine 	more than 4 hows that
[13:48]	Knowl Paine 	surprise us
[13:48]	Knowl Paine 	peewee is not here but she seconded the motion at the time
[13:49]	Rand Linden 	OK
[13:49]	Rand Linden 	I will see if we can do that
[13:49]	Knowl Paine 	anything extra would be great
[13:50]	Knowl Paine 	helps to send a wink that I see how that person helps
[13:50]	Rand Linden 	So, presumably, you are running into the limit in daily use?
[13:50]	Knowl Paine 	yes
[13:50]	Knowl Paine 	when active
[13:50]	Rand Linden 	And others are as well?
[13:50]	Knowl Paine 	I believe so
[13:50]	Torben (torben.trautman) 	I did a few times
[13:50]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Now and then
[13:50]	Rand Linden 	(just trying to make sure we have our ducks in a row before asking for the change)
[13:50]	Knowl Paine 	it easy to do
[13:51]	Knowl Paine 	kudo a couple Q's marked answered then visit the creation category
[13:51]	Knowl Paine 	ur out of kudos
[13:51]	Jeremy Linden 	Too much good information!
[13:52]	Jeremy Linden 	Oh, Rand just crashed again.
[13:52]	Torben (torben.trautman) 	welcome back Rand
[13:52]	Knowl Paine 	wonder what his draw distance is
[13:52]	Knowl Paine 	lol
[13:52]	Rand Linden 	ha thx
[13:52]	lonetorus Habilis 	lonetorus Habilis wonders why he sees more and more ruthed ppl
[13:52]	Rand Linden 	maybe ive been installing too many new viewers :-P
[13:53]	Rand Linden 	messed up my installation(?)
[13:53]	Rand Linden 	i havent crashed this much in quite a while...
[13:53]	Torben (torben.trautman) 	itÂ´s a new feature maybe?
[13:53]	Jeremy Linden 	Hey Rand - https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/How_do_I_fully_uninstall_and_reinstall_Second_Life%3F
[13:53]	Jeremy Linden 	:-D
[13:53]	Rand Linden 	anyway, raising the limit IS easy... but we have to get "approval" to do so.... I just need to justify doing so
[13:53]	Rand Linden 	lol
[13:54]	Knowl Paine 	I will ask other Residents at the forum feedback.
[13:55]	Rand Linden 	ok well i will ask abou it and raise it if possible.
[13:55]	Knowl Paine 	:)
[13:55]	Jeremy Linden 	Ok, we're down to the last 5 minutes. Rand, do you have any updates to share this week?
[13:55]	Knowl Paine 	with Lexie away I understand that things will take time
[13:56]	Rand Linden 	Yes, thx for your patience.
[13:56]	Rand Linden 	I dont really have much right now... we have some exciting stuff in the pipeline, but we cant really talk about it yet...
[13:56]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Is teasing part of the managment training at LL?
[13:57]	Knowl Paine 	lol
[13:57]	Rand Linden 	lol
[13:57]	Jeremy Linden 	It's more like the communication policy. We have stuff we REALLY want to talk about, but can't until it's ready to go public.
[13:57]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	:) you LL's all have it down... :p
[13:57]	The Man From Del Monte (adamburp.adamczyk)	well, big announcxement due at the end of octiber i hear>
[13:58]	The Man From Del Monte (adamburp.adamczyk)	october*
[13:58]	lonetorus Habilis 	yeah its seems unfortunatly that mos tif no all public facing lindens know exactly what they can and cant talk about, do you have some sort of secret tag for new projects or some other general rule to guide what you acnt alk about ?
[13:58]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	I understnad... but we have to tease back some how
[13:58]	lonetorus Habilis 	or is the contract and nda also stop you from commenting on that?
[13:58]	Jeremy Linden 	Heh. The "secret tag" is whether or not it's been announced on the blog, usually :-)
[13:59]	Jeremy Linden 	Or if it's something that's been in public testing, like mesh.
[13:59]	Rand Linden 	Right. Worker bees like Jeremy and myself dont generally "announce" things...
[13:59]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	You've seen Rod's leaks at SLUniverse?
[13:59]	Torben (torben.trautman) 	it seems itÂ´s safe to call it a day ;)
[13:59]	Torben (torben.trautman) 	bye all
[13:59]	lonetorus Habilis 	yeah, still sucks you cant talk about whats going on currently XD
[13:59]	Torben (torben.trautman) 	Torben waves and poofs
[13:59]	Jeremy Linden 	Bye Torben, thanks for coming.
[14:00]	Jeremy Linden 	Oy. Rand just crashed again.
[14:00]	Knowl Paine 	bye :)
[14:00]	Knowl Paine 	fast way out
[14:00]	Melvin Starbrook 	oops
[14:00]	lonetorus Habilis 	the residents can be quick to whip up a storm on some rumor ;)
[14:00]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	O.O
[14:01]	Knowl Paine 	a little Storm is good
[14:01]	Jeremy Linden 	Well, part of the reason we can't talk about stuff that's still in development is that it can often cause people to... "extrapolate" what it'll be like when it's done and then get upset (or worse, excited) about something that will change a lot before it's ready to go public for real.
[14:01]	The Man From Del Monte (adamburp.adamczyk)	The Man From Del Monte is outta here now - she who msut be obeyed is due on
[14:02]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	People tend to make things as dark and disasterious as they can possibly imagine. Sad.
[14:02]	lonetorus Habilis 	indeed, we have gone through quite a few of these high drama periods over the years XD
[14:02]	Jeremy Linden 	For those of you still here, Rand wanted to share http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Featured-News/CEO-Rodvik-Humble-Shares-What-s-New-in-Second-Life/ba-p/1143239
[14:02]	Knowl Paine 	it's better to say less
[14:02]	Time Minder 	You have been online for 1 hours.
[14:02]	Rand Linden 	'Ere I am, J.H.
[14:02]	Knowl Paine 	is that the Video?
[14:02]	Knowl Paine 	interview?
[14:02]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	He expands on that at SlUniverse
[14:02]	Knowl Paine 	I will look
[14:03]	The Man From Del Monte (adamburp.adamczyk)	have yo ua link to that on slu?
[14:03]	Jeremy Linden 	Ok, I'm gonna cut for the transcript here!
[14:03]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	http://blog.nalates.net/2011/10/13/sl-viewer-interface-to-change/
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