Open Development User Group/Archive/2011-05-18

13:30 	xstorm Radek  	greetings oz dd ya miss me ?
  	Yann  	hey Boroondas is just back lol
  	  	hi Kodah :)
  	  	Oy Oz :)
  	xstorm Radek  	im back toive every one bad dreams
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	"back"? I've just arrived
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	afternoon Oz
  	The avatar formerly know as  	Hello all
  	Yann  	your not allergic at the bird Oz? ;p
  	Oz Linden  	Hi all
13:31 	draconis.neurocam  	hello oz
  	xstorm Radek  	quick one oz to ask ya
  	  	will second life ever have hypergrid ?
13:32 	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	unlikely any time soon, but 'ever' is a long time, so who knows?
  	Oz Linden  	not an open development question, and not within my scope
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	^
  	xstorm Radek  	he h he he he thats the oz i know
13:33 	Oz Linden  	Very cool av, eddi
  	Yann  	thanks :)
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	looks dangerous
  	xstorm Radek  	so oz then your saying its dev work is not open to the users yet ?
  	Oz Linden  	well, xstorm, I could make something up, but that wouldn't help you, me, or LL
13:34 	  	We've got an agenda, and a bunch of OPEN issues that need to be looked at....
  	  	apologies, I'll be a little slow today... working on just one screen
13:35 	Jonathan  	url ?
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Development_User_Group
  	The avatar formerly know as  	Egad, only one screen? I'd call in sick if I had to work on just one screen :3
  	Oz Linden  	open-68
  	Office Orb  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-68
OPEN-68 Convert autobuild library builds to use msbuild.exe instead of devenv.com. Then, convert all 3p-lib's build-cmd.sh to have the correct parameter call alignment for msbuild.exe.
  	Oz Linden  	and open-69
  	Office Orb  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-69
OPEN-69 Change autobuild to use msbuild.exe
13:36 	Oz Linden  	I think that I do understand these, but I'd like the issues to spell out what problem is being addressed, instead of only what changes are being made
13:37 	  	there's nothing there that explains _why_ this is wanted
  	The avatar formerly know as  	I believe that MSVC express does not have devenv.com
  	Oz Linden  	since I'm going to have to get this reviewed and approved by Lindens who don't have the problem, that would help
  	  	I said that _I_ know what the issue is....
  	  	Write It Down
13:38 	Jonathan  	Nicky will you update those descriptions?
  	The avatar formerly know as  	doesn't use express.
13:39 	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	STORM-1149 might be the reason/motivation for the changes ...
  	Office Orb  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-1149
STORM-1149 [OPEN-50] As an Open Source developer I would like a single set of configurations, which work for both Visual Studio and Express version of VC.
  	Nicky Perian  	sorry door bell
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	thus why I linked it as 'parent'
  	  	(dunno whether that's the correct thing to do)
  	xstorm Radek  	lol
13:40 	Ima Mechanique  	I kinda envisioned this as part of open-50/storm1149
  	Oz Linden  	Just clean up the issues and spell it out so that if someone reads them who doesn't know anything, they
  	Office Orb  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-50
STORM-1149 [OPEN-50] As an Open Source developer I would like a single set of configurations, which work for both Visual Studio and Express version of VC.
  	Oz Linden  	will understand what's going on
  	xstorm Radek  	he he he he
  	  	i like to see that happen
  	Nicky Perian  	I think the scope of OPEN-50 narrowed over time
  	Oz Linden  	note: open-50 is Closed
  	The avatar formerly know as  	Someone, just tack userstories on them :P
13:41 	Oz Linden  	exactly
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	xstorm, see what happen?
  	Oz Linden  	I'm all for unifying things, by the way.... I just have to justify why we should change something that from LL's point of view is Working Just Fine
13:42 	  	OPEN-67
  	Office Orb  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-67
OPEN-67 LLDirIterator implementation incompatible to boost::filesystem v3 (as found in Boost 1.44 and newer)
13:43 	Oz Linden  	what version of boost are we packaging now, Boroondas?
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	1.45
  	Nicky Perian  	I think we should try to reach the widest possible range of dev's.
  	xstorm Radek  	working fine like LL new beta viewer with many bugs
  	Oz Linden  	Nicky... I'm not arguing... I'm asking you for help
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	1.46.1 i think is the latest though
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	I don't know what LL's packing. I'm still using standalone, thus whatever's installed on my system.
  	Nicky Perian  	ok
13:44 	xstorm Radek  	how do LL define the word working fine ?
  	Oz Linden  	xstorm: it is working well enough for all Lindens to build viewers
  	Nicky Perian  	Is the updated description enough. OPEN-68?
13:45 	Oz Linden  	which means I need to justify why Lindens should spend time on changing it
  	xstorm Radek  	oh to build viewers i see ok
  	Oz Linden  	I'll look after the meeting and let you know, Nicky
  	Nicky Perian  	k
13:47 	Oz Linden  	I don't think that I understand the problem, Boroondas.... you say that the API is incompatible with anything > 1.44 but we are using 1.45 ; shouldn't we be having a problem?
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	if that is the case, yes
  	Oz Linden  	well, are we?
13:48 	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	Dunno ... have you tried building 2.6.9-start on TeamCity?
  	Oz Linden  	yes, it builds fine
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	strange
  	Dɐuʇıɐ Goʇɥןʎ  	its builds every day.
  	draconis.neurocam  	is using it now
  	Oz Linden  	believe me, I've done a _lot_ of builds since that tag
13:49 	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	maybe your boost is modified to still use the old API?
  	Oz Linden  	CG tells me that I'm by far the heaviest user of TC
  	xstorm Radek  	ok mr OZ i got to see what i was looking for have a good day
  	  	**ok i wuv u byby!!**
  	The avatar formerly know as  	I've noticed recently on v-d that autobuild is not setting the startup project anymore.
13:50 	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	Anyway, my proposed fix should work fine with both, old and new API. So if it still builds on TC after applying that, it should be good.
  	The avatar formerly know as  	Nor the startup config, its defaulted to debug every configure.
13:51 	Jonathan  	I've been getting the debug config for a long time. Even trying -t Release doesn't help
  	The avatar formerly know as  	And this isn't on express either. Hmm...
  	Oz Linden  	I am not yet convinced that there's a problem here that needs solving
  	  	it is not a goal that we able to build the viewer with arbitrary versions of dependencies
13:52 	  	only with the version we are using at any given time
  	Nicky Perian  	@kadah.coba Within the IDE?
  	Lindsey Warwick  	omg a real linden
  	Jonathan  	It would be nice if the files config files the IDE reads in match the setting supplied to autobuild
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	that means no system libraries can ever be used?
  	Jonathan  	or at least have a way of setting it on the command line
  	Oz Linden  	if there's a reason to upgrade a dependency (and I agree that they should not be allowed to get too old), that's ok, but supporting more than one version is not needed
13:53 	The avatar formerly know as  	Nicky, when I run autobuild configure -c RelWithDebInfoOS, within the IDE the startup project nor config have been set, they used to.
  	Oz Linden  	one topic at a time, folks
  	Jonathan  	What topic are we on now?
13:54 	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	well, I can easily change my fix so it only works with the new API. But I'm sure that'll break stuff for someone. If not for LL, then for fellow standalone devs on other linux distributions.
  	  	OPEN-67
  	Oz Linden  	Using system libs is at best a very very low priority, frankly
  	  	especially if it adds complexity
13:55 	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	I see. Note though, that for how strongly the API has changed, the added complexity here is rather moderate.
  	Oz Linden  	there are ~50 third party libs in this thing... if we try to make it version-agile with all of them, and all theh ways they are installed on all the distros and platforms , we'll spend the rest of our lives just doing that and never add another feature to the viewer
  	Cron Stardust  	So it sounds like the best path would be to fix the reasons why us Linux devs have to use standalone, and depricate the standalone build process.... unless I'm reall yfar out again :P
13:56 	The avatar formerly know as  	Updating boost has never been trivial.
  	Oz Linden  	I don't really understand why anyone thinks that they "need" standalone
13:57 	The avatar formerly know as  	Cause they are masochists?
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	The reason I still use standalone is that I don't have time to try building all 3p-* stuff for 64bit.
  	Ashiri Sands  	=^_^=
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	Will do that some time, but not any time soon.
  	Oz Linden  	we finally got all the dependencies in public repos with uniform packaging/building tools
  	  	well, alternatively you're spending the time hacking standalone
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	yeah :-P
13:58 	Oz Linden  	which does nothing to advance our supporting 64 bit
  	  	whereas if all the 3p-* packages were known to work and build 64 bit, it would be a much easier sell for me to convince LL to start doing that
13:59 	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	ok
  	Oz Linden  	hint hint hint
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	^.^
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	yeah, got it
  	Oz Linden  	and the same goes for all of you who keep complaining that we don't ship a 64bit Windows version
14:00 	Ima Mechanique  	hehe I can't even build the 3p-*'s for 32 bit
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	I don't think anyone's building standalone on Windows. (Is that even possible?)
  	The avatar formerly know as  	Next topic?
14:01 	Jonathan  	Is there a 64 bit KDU ?
  	Oz Linden  	one more word on that last one... we should probably look at how far behind we are on boost...
  	Jonathan  	and that piece needed by mesh that we can't get?
  	The avatar formerly know as  	Jonathan, if you license kdu and build it, yes.
  	Oz Linden  	We have source for KDU, so if we built it there would be
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	your on 1.45, i know theres at least a 1.46.1
14:02 	Oz Linden  	it would surpise the heck out of me if it were not 64bit clean
  	Jonathan  	So a 64 bit viewer is not an impossibility, especially if open source people work to build the libs
  	Zwagoth Klaar  	If you build KDU yourself, yes. It is actually slightly faster than the 32 bit version.
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	qtwebkit should be updated tbo, they had 438 closed jira entries for 4.7.2
  	  	ranging from ogl issues to font rendering to explots, etc
  	Oz Linden  	I'll get a look at the boost release notes to see if we should upgrade, in which case some version of your fix will probably be useful, Boroondas, but we won't need to do both
14:03 	  	qtwebkit is not something anyone wants to fool with lightly....
  	  	open-65
  	Office Orb  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-65
OPEN-65 autobuild build for 3p-ogvorbis defaults to vs2005 even though configured under a vs2010 express shell
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	ok
  	Nicky Perian  	close it
14:04 	  	overcome by events open-70
  	Office Orb  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-70
OPEN-70 Change 3p-ogvorbis/build-cmd.sh to use msbuild.exe parameters.
  	Oz Linden  	did someone fix autobuild to default to 100?
  	The avatar formerly know as  	I couldnt get the 3p-oggvorbis to autobuild, I had to do it manually
  	Ima Mechanique  	OPEN-66 should do that Oz
  	Office Orb  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-66
OPEN-66 Update autobuilds default VC version.
14:05 	Oz Linden  	excellent
  	  	ok....
  	The avatar formerly know as  	When I run autobuild configure -c RelWithDebInfoOS, within the IDE the startup project nor config have been set, they used to.
  	  	I'm not on express.
14:06 	Oz Linden  	did that correspond to the mesh merge, kadah?
  	The avatar formerly know as  	Possibly, I haven't tired building v-d in a while, so it could either be from the mesh merge or since like 2.6.5 ish
  	Jonathan  	I have not seen the config set properly for a long time, even when I specify it on the commend line (don't know if having the startup project set makes any difference)
14:07 	Ima Mechanique  	kadah, could it have been from the OPEN-50 changes?
  	The avatar formerly know as  	has been crazy busy irl lately
  	Ima Mechanique  	try changing -DUNATTENDED:BOOL=ON to OFF
14:08 	Oz Linden  	perhaps some of you windows devs can help him isolate when that changed and why? I just had to loan the windows dev on my team to the mesh team
  	Ima Mechanique  	that may be related to the vstools stuff
  	The avatar formerly know as  	Maybe, did open-50 chanege the config based on the installed MSVC edition or off the *OS config?
  	Jonathan  	Kadah, I have had the config issue since November
  	  	(at least)
  	Oz Linden  	I don't think anything detects the installed msvc
  	Ima Mechanique  	OPEN-50 made the config lowest common denominator. so it doesn't use vstools by default anymore
  	The avatar formerly know as  	I'll try a few runs today and see if I can find when that started
14:09 	Ima Mechanique  	correct Oz, can't really detect MSVC type full and express look the same to cmake
14:10 	Nicky Perian  	develop.py was the same way at least for me.
  	The avatar formerly know as  	I thought there were some reg key tells for express
  	Nicky Perian  	never set the solution startup
  	  	and defaulted to debug
14:11 	Oz Linden  	those attempts at detecting got pretty messy on systems with multiple versions installed
  	Jonathan  	I have always set the solution by hand, since I started 12 months ago
  	Ima Mechanique  	kadah, there are, but cmake doesn't use them. and it gets more complicated when you throw in 32 vs 64 version
14:12 	  	develop.py failed to find any VS on 64 bit because it looked in the wrong place ;-)
14:13 	  	I look forward to M$ dropping 32 bit, but I suspect it will be qa long time away
  	Oz Linden  	yes, I suspect you're right about that
  	The avatar formerly know as  	Uh, yeah, the default platform is still xp.
  	Oz Linden  	we have actually started shifting our builds to win7
14:14 	  	but they still work on xp
  	The avatar formerly know as  	I meant the users :P
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	windows 8 is looking to still come in a 32bit version
  	Oz Linden  	yes, users may never upgrade....
14:15 	  	you should see how many users are still on ancient viewers (mostly old TPVs)
  	The avatar formerly know as  	According to Steam's hardware stats, 33%% of their users are on 32bit XP or vista
  	Yann  	yeah its important to do some update mendatory about that i think :)
14:16 	Oz Linden  	well, in time the APIs those old viewers use will stop working, and then they'll upgrade
  	Ima Mechanique  	or just pass into the tpv graveyard silently
14:17 	Yann  	you talk to stop the 1.x viewer ??
  	Ashiri Sands  	First they'll moan about the viewer not working
  	Ima Mechanique  	lol Ashiri first they'll moan about the GRID not working
  	The avatar formerly know as  	25 minutes it took to build v-d tip just now. Not sure if thats an improvement for me.
  	Oz Linden  	we still have not set a schedule for when we'll completely drop our 1.23
14:18 	The avatar formerly know as  	26 seconds to link x3
  	Ima Mechanique  	depends kadah, does it run? My build yesterday crashed on startup
  	Yann  	by chance i have firestorm in my hd :)
  	Oz Linden  	I put in a fix for one startup crash this morning
  	The avatar formerly know as  	Yeah, crashes on startup.
  	Ima Mechanique  	is that the assert thingy Oz?
  	Oz Linden  	I think that it's possible there's another one
  	  	yes, Ima
  	Yann  	Kadah m for firestorm?
14:19 	Oz Linden  	changed some llerrs to llwarns
  	Ima Mechanique  	excellent, I'll pull and rebuild
  	  	want to test if my USE_QUICKTIME works
  	oobscure  	are there any up-to-date stats about viewer usage we can see ?
  	The avatar formerly know as  	I can't even tell you where I crashed, even with debugging its not giving me anything useful
14:20 	Oz Linden  	We don't generally distribute usage stats
  	Yann  	hmm Kadah .. its strange :)
  	Oz Linden  	1.23 is falling pretty steadily, our viewer and phoenix both rising slowly
14:21 	  	Dolphin finally got enough users on one version to make the cutoff to be included in the top section of the TPVD this week
  	draconis.neurocam  	oh wow
  	Yann  	aie
14:22 	Oz Linden  	(has had enough users for quite some time, but on multiple versions, so that stats for any one were too low)
  	Yann  	i see singularty to , its the next of Accent?
  	The avatar formerly know as  	Its a fork of Accent
  	  	Accent seems to be dead
  	Oz Linden  	it is a fork of Ascent, I believe
  	Yann  	okey right thanks to confirm that with me :)
14:23 	The avatar formerly know as  	Asscent hasn't had any commits since October, I think
  	Yann  	i,m little curious i load some viewer of this list in my computer to try :)
14:24 	  	i have 56,000 .exe of some viewer lol
  	Oz Linden  	any viewer that isn't being actively maintained is going to start having fairly serious problems over the next months
  	draconis.neurocam  	that is good news oz
  	Oz Linden  	we're making a lot of changes... if viewers don't keep up, things will break
  	The avatar formerly know as  	Breaking stuff?
14:25 	Oz Linden  	improving stuff an adding new stuff
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	mesh...
  	Oz Linden  	mesh, improved chat, new profile features
  	Yann  	its more complicated, with the 1.5x viewer .. to load and other thig like that
  	Oz Linden  	most APIs will get some kind of update
  	draconis.neurocam  	i really feel like the more people are on v2 the more people will look at the code, the more fixes it will get, the more sl will evolve on the whole
  	Yann  	due to some change on the server code* i think
14:26 	Oz Linden  	and we do not promise to maintain the old APIs for long
  	  	It's always been the policy that our viewer is the reference for how to interface to the servers, and by that we mean the 2.x code base now
14:27 	Yann  	yeah but the uix cant be changed right?
  	  	xui*
  	Jonathan  	Don't forget the days when the grid was shut down weekly for updating and then you had to load a new viewer before logging in.
  	Yann  	sorry my typos
  	Oz Linden  	that being said, we're looking hard at what motivates people to stay on a 1.x viewer so that we can try to address those issues too
14:28 	Kraptacular Kat  	so far its only little things about the UI mostly
  	Oz Linden  	not sure what you mean eddi... the xui is changed almost every day
  	The avatar formerly know as  	That would be several meetings to cover.
  	Oz Linden  	(I was making changes before I logged in for this meeting)_
  	Nicky Perian  	for everyday work/building the pie menus are best IMO.
14:29 	Kraptacular Kat  	I agree
  	Yann  	Oz, i talk about some project open source (the dev have the right to add som xui or not?)
  	Oz Linden  	I wasn't hear for the whole pie menu discussion... don't know how/why that changed
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	nested pie menus suck, but there was the need to add more menu entries
14:30 	draconis.neurocam  	yeah
  	Ashiri Sands  	Aren't pie menus pretty much limited to the games apps?
  	Oz Linden  	open devs (or Linden devs for that matter) don't have the "right" to do anything
  	Yann  	Oz, i think its more intuitiv with the pie menue, cause some time with my 2.x buid click i have some difficulty :)
  	  	i hate that lol :)
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	non-nested pie menus are great though, so maybe some hybrid approach could be envisioned?
  	The avatar formerly know as  	I forget what reason I heard for ditching the pie, but I had a feeling it was another one of the "consultants" ideas.
  	Oz Linden  	we all have to make proposals for what should be changed and get them reviewed
  	  	LIndens included
  	oobscure  	oz could you tell us something more about the upcoming improved chat you mentioned?
  	Jonathan  	I have a finished jira that reorganizes the build and right click menus to be more user-friendly. Hopefully that will get some LL attention at some point
14:31 	Kraptacular Kat  	very vocal people who didnt like it because it was not a classic menu system
  	Oz Linden  	I don't actually know many of the details, on chat
  	Jonathan  	So everyone, don't give up hope
  	Oz Linden  	there is a good sized team doing work to figure out why it lags and making changes
  	The avatar formerly know as  	From what I heard, 2030 was responsible fo the UI design.
  	Oz Linden  	there's a commit in the queue for v-d to instrument some things, actually
  	Yann  	you know where you click on the mouse and the mouse select the thing just under the selection you want you seem to be a noob all the time:)
  	oobscure  	i see that group chat load tests may be added to mainstream viewer https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-1267 -- maybe to measure actual improvement
14:32 	Office Orb  	STORM-1267 Please merge hg.lindenlab.com/nat/viewer-group-chat-hooks2 into viewer-development
  	Yann  	with the pe menue i never observ that :)
  	  	pie*
  	Oz Linden  	well, I am guessing that pie menus are not coming back any time soon
14:33 	Ima Mechanique  	except on FS
  	Nicky Perian  	the other thing that hold me back from v2 was early on inventory losses.
  	Kraptacular Kat  	would be nice for the option though
14:34 	Oz Linden  	well, if FS solves being able to do both menu styles, we'll see if we can take that change ;-)
  	Yann  	Oz, honestly why you can do a mode of more like advenced, and basic, you could creat an Legacy mode, to get the old configuration of menu :)
  	  	its my idea :)
  	Oz Linden  	too many differences, eddi
  	The avatar formerly know as  	Yeah, v2 assumes you only have one of most types of panels ever.
14:35 	Oz Linden  	There's a lot going on to improve the UI... one of these days I'll ask that team to come present at the Viewer Evolution UG
  	Yann  	ok :)
  	The avatar formerly know as  	Thats the UG thats at like 7 in the morning isn't it?
  	Oz Linden  	I've got to go, folks... I'm actually working on code today!
  	draconis.neurocam  	8pst
  	  	on friday kadah
  	The avatar formerly know as  	Ah, yeah, I can never make it
  	Yann  	ok Oz have a nice day :)
14:36 	oobscure  	bye oz, thanks
  	The avatar formerly know as  	Thanks Oz
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	tc, Oz
  	draconis.neurocam  	thanks oz
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	tc Oz
  	Yann  	bye bye and thanks :)