Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2011.04.05

Simulator_User_Group
Prev 2011.04.01	Next 2011.04.08
== List of Speakers ==
Aelfwine Crystal 	Andrew Linden 	Arawn Spitteler
Ardy Lay 	Cummere Mayo 	Draconis Neurocam
Fancy Greeter 	Flip Idlemind 	Gooden Uggla
Hope Dreier 	Jonathan Yap 	Kelly Linden
Latif Khalifa 	Liisa Runo 	Maeva Anatine
Nimh20 Vandeverre	Opensource Obscure 	Oskar Linden
Pauline Darkfury 	Qie Niangao 	Rex Cronon
Simon Linden 	Sonya Haight 	Stickman
Talarus Luan 	TankMaster Finesmith	Toy Wylie
Void Singer 	Zwagoth Klaar 	
== Transcript ==
[12:00] Draconis Neurocam: hello andrew
[12:00] Hope Dreier: also in Phoenix
[12:00] Andrew Linden: Hello.
[12:00] Toy Wylie: Hi Andrew
[12:00] Opensource Obscure: I think it's a bit different than in Phoenix.
[12:00] Hope Dreier: Hello Andrew
[12:00] Sonya Haight: they have bouncing belly and butts now?
[12:00] Opensource Obscure: yup Sonya
[12:00] Opensource Obscure: hello Andrew
[12:00] Hope Dreier: no just breasts
[12:00] Flip Idlemind: New feature? Now that they've made basic mode, I thought they were only removing features
[12:00] Sonya Haight: darn I'm so out of it, not that I want a bouncing belly or butt
[12:00] Void Singer waits for flabby arms and legs
[12:00] Liisa Runo: does it detect if someone is barely A cup and wearing a sports bra, and dont bounce those ppl?
[12:00] Opensource Obscure: no features have been removed.
[12:01] Flip Idlemind: In basic mode? Yes, most features have been removed
[12:01] Zwagoth Klaar: It's a per avatar thing, it is sent to other avatars supposedly.
[12:01] Latif Khalifa: hey Zwagoth
[12:01] Ardy Lay: It's a wearable
[12:01] Latif Khalifa: long time no see
[12:01] Latif Khalifa: hello all
[12:01] Rex's greeter says: Hello Void, Toy, Opensource, Hope, Draconis, Andrew, Maeva, Latif, zarrock, Zwagoth, Flip, Jonathan, Kirsten, Liisa, Sonya, and Bronson.
[12:01] Zwagoth Klaar pokes Latif
[12:02] Andrew Linden: I think Simon will be late today.
[12:02] Maeva Anatine: Hi everybody
[12:02] Rex Cronon: hi
[12:02] Andrew Linden: Here is what little news I have...
[12:02] Fancy Greeter: Oskar Linden has arrived! (Or, returned?)
[12:02] Void Singer *MAY* have found a bug in the link distance parsing
[12:03] Andrew Linden: We had an update today on the main channel (Second Life Server)
[12:04] Pauline Darkfury: hi folks :)
[12:04] Rex Cronon: hi
[12:04] Hope Dreier: Hi Oskar
[12:04] Oskar Linden: *waves*
[12:04] Andrew Linden: which was the "avatar transaction limits" project... relating to limited transactions based on estate limits, I think.
[12:04] Andrew Linden: I'm not familiar with that project actually.
[12:04] Oskar Linden: the code shipped today?
[12:04] Oskar Linden: yup
[12:04] Oskar Linden: it was the estate transfer limits project
[12:05] Andrew Linden: So whatever is on the public announcement page may be more than I know now.
[12:05] Draconis Neurocam: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Second_Life_Server/11
[12:05] Void Singer: that the one to keep estate limited teens from IM with anyone not on the estate?
[12:05] Zwagoth Klaar: I remember seeing the ability to limit somebody to an estate in the reg api code, but have never heard anything about it other than that.
[12:05] Sonya Haight: Estate transfer limits
[12:05] Oskar Linden: this page: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-Week-of-2011-04-04/m-p/797955
[12:05] Andrew Linden: That pomotion happened from the Magnum channel
[12:05] Andrew Linden: so that means the main channel is currently identical to Magnum
[12:05] Oskar Linden: the limited to estate feature is not used much and is a custom feature set up by support
[12:06] Oskar Linden: in special cases
[12:06] Pauline Darkfury: dropping some LSL malware on you, Andrew & Oskar, in case you fancy a look, it was spammed at me, attempts to grief someone or send Internet email spam via 156 llEmail scripts (that quickly get throttled and end up spewing errors). Trojan horse type thing disguised as a freebie radar.
[12:06] Andrew Linden: I don't know what project will be going into Magnum tomorrow
[12:06] Andrew Linden: I don't have anything to deliver to the RC channels right now.
[12:06] Oskar Linden: tomorrow Magnum gets Monty's Fast Assets
[12:06] Oskar Linden: I'm doing the release notes now
[12:06] Andrew Linden: Ah. Ok thanks Oskar.
[12:07] Liisa Runo: different version of that malware object been roaming the grid for years, the one Pauline gave you seem to be a new version
[12:07] Andrew Linden: Currently I'm working on mesh, fixing some parcel prim-count accounting problems.
[12:07] Pauline Darkfury: The creator on that object is an innocent victim, btw, as far as I can tell, someone using a full perm prim of theirs for it
[12:07] Latif Khalifa: Andew, is prim accounting still dependant on object scale?
[12:07] Andrew Linden: That work isn't done, but it is finished enough for me to review, and commit to a working repro, so I'll probably switch to some maintenance stuff
[12:07] Ultimate Flight Band: All Go
[12:07] Andrew Linden: and get the current maint-server ready for RC next week (if possible)
[12:08] Andrew Linden: Latif, actually the work I'm doing is somewhat independent o the actual formulas used for per-object resource costs.
[12:08] Aelfwine Crystal: Do I raise hand for to ask a question?
[12:08] Latif Khalifa: I was just wondering if some adult supervision is coming to that team :)
[12:08] Fancy Greeter: Simon Linden has arrived! (Or, returned?)
[12:09] Andrew Linden: So I don't know Latif. When I'm done I hope we can easily tweak that formula without having a problem.
[12:09] Cummere Mayo: sorry if i landed on you simon
[12:09] Andrew Linden: Aelfwine, wait a couple of min, if you can.
[12:09] Aelfwine Crystal: Of course
[12:09] Simon Linden: My pleasure, Cummere
[12:09] Latif Khalifa: I think that resizing object and noticing you're out of parcel prims is going to be a big WTF factor for many users.
[12:09] Andrew Linden: Hrm... actually that's the end of my news.
[12:10] Andrew Linden: Oskar and Simon: if you've got news go ahead.
[12:10] Talarus Luan: I thought the mesh prim cost was related to compexity, not size. <.<
[12:10] Oskar Linden: me?
[12:10] Hope Dreier: Yes but this is a necessarry violation of the "principle of least suprise."
[12:10] Oskar Linden: oh
[12:10] Oskar Linden: I changed up the forums page
[12:10] Latif Khalifa: Talarus, also size
[12:10] Cummere Mayo: o.O ?
[12:10] Oskar Linden: this was the forum I was given: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Release/bd-p/Release
[12:10] Simon Linden: Not much from me ... I've been working on our large-scale-bots-auto-testing system, plus putting the finishing touches on llRegionSayTo()
[12:11] Oskar Linden: but calling it "release" was confusing
[12:11] Oskar Linden: so I deprecated it
[12:11] Oskar Linden: this is the new server forum: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/bd-p/SecondLifeServer
[12:11] Maeva Anatine: Waht is this project Simon ?
[12:11] Oskar Linden: where I will do release news among other things
[12:11] Oskar Linden: makes more sense
[12:11] Cummere Mayo: cool thanks oskar
[12:11] Talarus Luan: llRegionSayTo would be awesome :D
[12:11] Oskar Linden: so go here to talk about server stuff: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/bd-p/SecondLifeServer
[12:11] Oskar Linden: I know andrew and simon will be watching it hourly
[12:11] Oskar Linden: :-p
[12:12] Void Singer: lol
[12:12] Hope Dreier: as in llRegionSayto(uuid, string) ?
[12:12] Oskar Linden: or at least I will
[12:12] Simon Linden adds a bookmark to his unmanagelable list
[12:12] Andrew Linden: Yeah, I added a bookmark too.
[12:12] Cummere Mayo goes to write about server bugs there, since her jira login seems to be disabled
[12:12] Maeva Anatine: Simon ? What is arge-scale-bots-auto-testing system ?
[12:12] Maeva Anatine: *l
[12:12] Andrew Linden: Maybe I'll remember it's there next week.
[12:13] Simon Linden: The test system I mentioned is for use to be able to put up to 100 AVs into a region, using our viewer code (not a bot based on libomv or something else)
[12:13] Draconis Neurocam: they just merged some headless related code into viewer-development not long ago
[12:13] Maeva Anatine: This is a charge test then ? Correct ?
[12:13] Simon Linden: We run batches of 'headless' viewers that will fetch textures, etc. like normal people
[12:13] Talarus Luan: Load test jig
[12:13] Latif Khalifa: Simon, you could also fix the viewer not to DDoS you with 60 AgentUpdates a second.
[12:13] Simon Linden: Then we can test performance, and get repeatable tests
[12:14] Cummere Mayo: >.>
[12:14] Simon Linden: We've been doing performance work for a while, and finally broke down to devoting some time to this system because it's hard to get realistic simulations
[12:14] Flip Idlemind: This will be the end of "could u guize run around for a while?" parties?
[12:14] Simon Linden: And people get cranky if we test on the production grid
[12:15] Simon Linden: Naw, those are just fun to have some times, so we'll keep doing them :)
[12:15] Andrew Linden: Yeah, probably no more test pileon parties.
[12:15] Flip Idlemind: Yayy
[12:15] Hope Dreier: Simon did your use this to run the CCS test?
[12:15] Andrew Linden: D'oh. I contradicted Simon.
[12:15] Maeva Anatine: Clear Simon. Will this test tool be available for poeple other than Lindens ?
[12:15] Void Singer: aww, but dogpile parties are fun
[12:15] Andrew Linden: Sure, we'll throw parties for fun!
[12:16] Andrew Linden: Ok, I'm going to declare the table open for questions.
[12:16] Aelfwine Crystal: me me me!
[12:16] Aelfwine Crystal: its a fast one
[12:16] Andrew Linden: Go ahead Aelfwine.
[12:16] Aelfwine Crystal: Thank you
[12:16] Simon Linden: I don't think we'll publish the test tool ... it's custom built for our workstations. It's pretty rough and hacky, using a bunch of linux commands with lots of parameters to tie it all together. Definitely not friendly
[12:16] Aelfwine Crystal: A while back, quite a while back, the question of the gray map bug came up, and your attempt to fix it failed. Is there still being anyone working on this?
[12:16] Maeva Anatine: ok clear Simon. Tx
[12:16] Andrew Linden: No need to raise your hand, just ask (and hope it gets noticed ;-)
[12:17] Andrew Linden: No Aelfwine, no one is working on that map issue right now.
[12:17] Pauline Darkfury: Suggestion for large scale performance data gathering. I've occasionally seen something like a wedding have 100 AVs on a private island, could be interesting for you to add something like "if (agent_count >= 40) {occasionally_save_perf_stats();}" to the server?
[12:17] Latif Khalifa: Simon, there is a viewer bug that sends AgentUpdate to the sim on each frame. So if viewer is doing 50-60 frames a second it will flood the sim with 50-60 agent updates. If you have 50 agents in the sim, that's thousands of messages a second.
[12:17] Simon Linden: The other bit ... llRegionSayTo(key, channel, msg) came to the top of our list because it's useful to build these tests
[12:17] Andrew Linden: Since it is viewer-1.23 only there is very little incentive to fix it.
[12:17] Aelfwine Crystal: sigh.."I miss my lovely map...can I follow up with why not?'
[12:17] Cummere Mayo: any news on the various clothing and attachment bugs? and why lately tvps have had to bop inventory servers on the head so to speak to get outfit links to work right?
[12:18] Aelfwine Crystal: 1.23 only?
[12:18] Andrew Linden: Aelfwine, mostly just: too many things to do and the expectation that viewer-1.23 will be deprecated someday.
[12:18] Simon Linden: Latif - that's good to know and look into ... the sim would then likely be constantly marking that AV as having updates, so it will definitely put a load on the interest list
[12:18] Simon Linden: Not to mention your wasted up-stream bandwidth
[12:18] Aelfwine Crystal: alright, thank you Andrew
[12:19] Andrew Linden: Yeah, viewer-1.23 only (and any 3rd party viewers using the old UDP download pipeline for map textures)
[12:19] Zwagoth Klaar: Latif, last I looked its faulty keyboard code, should be a few line fix. I'll look into it farther and post a JIRA.
[12:19] Zwagoth Klaar: Only happens when the avatar is moving.
[12:19] Latif Khalifa: it would help the sim not to be DDoS-ed
[12:20] Rex Cronon: there is no such function llregionsayto
[12:20] Gooden Uggla: latif which viewer version is that?
[12:20] Talarus Luan: Not yet there isn't, but soon. :D
[12:20] Latif Khalifa: all
[12:20] Simon Linden: There will be, Rex ... I was working on today
[12:20] Andrew Linden: Cummere, I'm not up to date on the inventory problems, but that just reminded me...
[12:20] Zwagoth Klaar: It's any viewer version from what I understand. the keyboard code marks stuff as dirty even when it isn't. Only when a key is pressed though.
[12:20] Toy Wylie: Signed timers or timered dialogs would be nice, too.
[12:20] Rex Cronon: oh. cool. so nothing else will hear except the object with that uuid?
[12:21] Andrew Linden: I think the project currently on BlueSteele is some work on the inventory API
[12:21] Gooden Uggla: ummm yeah, that sgould be fixed then...
[12:21] Simon Linden: Yes ... or if it's sent to an AV, the attachments on that AV can get it
[12:21] Nimh20 Vandeverre: Here's a nice site to monitor the Cloud--
[12:21] Fancy Greeter: Kelly Linden has arrived! (Or, returned?)
[12:21] Nimh20 Vandeverre: http://www.cloudstatus.com/
[12:21] Andrew Linden: Oh... that's just the gzipped content stuff
[12:21] Maeva Anatine: I have a question related to the TOS or the CS. Anyone able to answer ?
[12:21] Andrew Linden: No Maeva. We don't know much about the TOS or CS here.
[12:22] Simon Linden: Probably not, Maeva ... we're from engineering
[12:22] Latif Khalifa: I have tested the new inventory api, same as Opensource Obscure, and I see about 300% slowdown compared to the UDP one.
[12:22] Maeva Anatine: Argh. I posted this today: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Abuse-and-Griefing/I-d-like-to-propose-a-service-with-bots-to-record-group-chat-Is/qaq-p/797699
[12:22] Void Singer found a hard to reproduce bug... object that is linked won't relink after rotating 90degrees Z and delinking
[12:22] Gooden Uggla: the last time the viewer DDoS attacked the server, the residents got blamed for it... is there a jira for that?
[12:22] Maeva Anatine: I was wondering if I could release such a service without any TOS issue
[12:23] Cummere Mayo: in a word maeva... NO
[12:23] Zwagoth Klaar: Considering it has been going on since 2006, I think its a non issue that residents are going to be blamed for the 60 packets a second.
[12:23] Void Singer: ... but it'll relink if you rotate it back
[12:23] Nimh20 Vandeverre: Maeva--Contact Lisa Berry on Linkedin if you pay for Linkedin and send her the question through there
[12:23] Maeva Anatine: Tx Nimh
[12:23] Andrew Linden: Maeva, I suspect that when the new group chat system goes online it may be possible to do that group-chat monitoring.
[12:23] Pauline Darkfury: Not sure what the official procedure is, Maeva, but you could try asking Soft Linden, he's been involved in privacy issues, but my personal feeling is NO, not even with disclaimer
[12:23] Talarus Luan: Void, are the parts on the very edge of the link distance limit?
[12:23] Andrew Linden: I don't know of any TOS entries that would forbit it. However IANAL (I am not a Lawer).
[12:24] Void Singer: exactly 54m Talarus
[12:24] Talarus Luan: Might be a roundoff error pushing them just past it when the rotation is applied
[12:24] Cummere Mayo: andrew its possible now... the tos is all that prevents it... the " you may not share conversations without consent
[12:24] Void Singer: .... and lying on the x/z plane
[12:24] Latif Khalifa: Maeva, I'm running such a system for 4-5 groups (IRC relay). As long as your group charter says it does you're fine.
[12:24] Andrew Linden: Ah ok Cummere.
[12:24] Maeva Anatine: that was what I had in mind Latif indeed
[12:24] Pauline Darkfury: ahh yeah, forgot the precident of group chat relays to IRC
[12:24] Gooden Uggla: ah, ok, it's the same bug they blamed on us before when they jacked up openspaces
[12:24] Void Singer: Talarus, I'd have thought so too... except that a 90degree rot shouldn't affect them =/
[12:25] Rex Cronon: i guess transcripts r out of the question?
[12:25] Simon Linden: I had someone asking about that TOS section and how it related to people who put notes in their profile saying they save IMs and may share them if needed
[12:25] Simon Linden: I'm glad I'm not a lawyer
[12:25] Maeva Anatine: I'm glad I'm not scanned by a lawyer :))
[12:26] Cummere Mayo: transcripts are bad... relyaing between services doesnt seem to be a breach cause it simply allows cross grid/irc communications. but really thats a legal team question
[12:26] Hope Dreier: Simon, How bout a message to people in IM to that effect?
[12:26] Cummere Mayo: legal@lindenlab.com
[12:26] Void Singer: Simon, you can tell them a paralegal said they cannot assume compliance without an acknolwedgement
[12:26] Maeva Anatine: Is this a valid working mail Cummere ?
[12:26] Gooden Uggla: simon, people who put that in their profiles are mistaken, since an an av can be IMed by right-clicking, the TOS is very specifoic
[12:26] Andrew Linden: Void, you're saying you've found a reliable repro recipe for a formerly difficult to repro bug?
[12:26] Simon Linden: I just tell them I'm a programmer
[12:26] Cummere Mayo: should be maeva
[12:27] Pauline Darkfury: yeah, shrink-wrap agreements don't fly in courts terribly well, has to be mutual consent to be a binding agreement
[12:27] Hope Dreier: Void IM me please
[12:27] Nimh20 Vandeverre: Maeva--here is Lisa Berry's Linkedin url
[12:27] Nimh20 Vandeverre: http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=2162643&authType=NAME_SEARCH&authToken=57ub&locale=en_US&srchid=3afecafb-c04c-4e6f-af7b-26f0fb71e8f8-0&srchindex=1&srchtotal=1&pvs=ps&pohelp=&goback=.fps_lisa+berry_*1_*1_*1_*1_*1_Linden+Research_*51_CP_I_us_*1_*1_false_1_R_true_G,N,I,CC,PC,ED,L,FG,TE,FA,SE,P,CS,F,DR_us:0_*2_*2_*2_*2_*2_*2_*2_*2_*2_*2_*2_*2_*2_*2_*2_*2_*2_*2_*2
[12:27] Maeva Anatine: OK Tx Cummere. Will give it a trial
[12:27] Andrew Linden: Yeah, the linkability should be rotation-agnostic.
[12:27] Pauline Darkfury: yay for spamtastic URLs! :p
[12:27] Void Singer: Andrew, no, I'm saying I have an object that repo's it every time, when it obviously shouldn't
[12:27] Andrew Linden: So a rotation that breaks linkability would be a bug.
[12:27] Cummere Mayo: they have fax and postal addresses on the site too
[12:28] Andrew Linden: ok cool Void. You described your repro recipe somewhere? or you have a copy of that object to give to me?
[12:28] Void Singer: I can drop ya a copy if ya like
[12:28] Latif Khalifa: is stone (or someone else) that's been working on the new invetnory going to stop by?
[12:28] Andrew Linden: sure, I'll take a copy
[12:28] Talarus Luan: Holy obfuscated URLs!
[12:28] Andrew Linden: Not today that I know of Latif.
[12:28] Nimh20 Vandeverre: Yeah didn't relize that URL was going to be so long
[12:28] Andrew Linden: But I can do some legwork after this meeting if you
[12:28] Void Singer: I tried to build a recipe... no dice or it'd be in jira already... lemme hand you a copy
[12:28] Andrew Linden: if you've got some intentory questions
[12:29] Gooden Uggla: wow, looks like void might catch a bounty, well done!
[12:29] Latif Khalifa: no just an observation that the new api is about 300% slower
[12:29] Latif Khalifa: and that you need to crank up the concurrent requests to be on par with udp
[12:30] Latif Khalifa: i was just wondering what that does to sim, if i run 10 parrallel http inventory folder fetches.
[12:30] Andrew Linden: Ok Latif, I'll mention that to Stone and will see if he can explain why that would be the case.
[12:30] Latif Khalifa: is that killing a sim?
[12:30] Toy Wylie: I would assume this does not go to the sim at all.
[12:30] Simon Linden: That shouldn't be going through the sim, I think
[12:30] Andrew Linden: the simulator process, and the host it is on, is not affected by the http inventory requests, I believe
[12:31] Latif Khalifa: well the host machine answering http queries
[12:31] Andrew Linden: the http requests go to a stack of dedicated servers (I think)
[12:31] Void Singer: sent object and IM'd you a note on the steps that show the bug
[12:31] Cummere Mayo: okay well im being asked to go help someone so take care all!
[12:31] Andrew Linden: Yeah, the host that is servring could get loaded, I would guess.
[12:31] Pauline Darkfury: just a thought, Latif, are you using HTTP/1.1 pipelining and keepalive (assuming the server supports them)?
[12:31] Toy Wylie: Run out of ports ;)
[12:31] Latif Khalifa: Pauline, they're disabled serverside
[12:32] Pauline Darkfury: ahh, shame, that can't really help perf then
[12:32] Talarus Luan: Oh, since Kelly is here, I wanted to note and thank you for moving the "hot scripting issues" to their own JIRA project. :D
[12:32] Simon Linden: Load on those inventory services has been an issue as we rolled it out, but it's a large-scale problem, not 10 people on one region
[12:32] Andrew Linden: You can't request unless you've got a "capability" assigned to you, but once you have one I don't know if there is a limit on how hard you can hammer the service.
[12:32] Talarus Luan: Does that mean that they are more on the track to being implemented? :)
[12:32] Andrew Linden: I'll have to ask Stone about that behavior.
[12:32] Latif Khalifa: I found it as or less reliable than UDP.
[12:32] Latif Khalifa: I know it sounds strange
[12:32] Latif Khalifa: but when you clear cache and login
[12:33] Latif Khalifa: you need to make a http connection for each fodler in your inventory
[12:33] Latif Khalifa: and for say typical users inventory that has 10k items, that's 1000 folders
[12:33] Latif Khalifa: 1000 http requests
[12:33] Draconis Neurocam: thats how they keep it non recursive with the limit then
[12:33] Latif Khalifa: i got about 1-2% faulure rate n those
[12:34] Pauline Darkfury: Mmm, and 1000 syn/ack/TCP training instances, which is really sub-optimal
[12:34] Talarus Luan: That's common with webpages too
[12:34] Latif Khalifa: Pauline, yes, and at 250ms for someone from europe, it's really slow
[12:34] Pauline Darkfury: even if piplining has an issue, keepalive would be a big win with that number of requests
[12:35] Latif Khalifa: Well I did a lot of testing of BlueSteel that has this enabled and thought it might be useful to share with server devs.
[12:36] Andrew Linden: Ok thanks Latif. I'll mention this to Stone and point him to this meeting's transcripts.
[12:37] Talarus Luan: Oh.. when is the new group chat system going to be released or even beta tested?
[12:37] Pauline Darkfury: 250ms is possibly a little high for EU -> LL latency, but probably not unheard of. Real stats from 8Mbit DSL in the UK, IP level ICMP ping:
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 161.475/162.583/171.896/1.834 ms
[12:37] Draconis Neurocam: its beta on aditi now talarus
[12:37] Talarus Luan: Is it going to require a viewer upgrade?
[12:37] Latif Khalifa: UK is not typical EU connection. It's as good as it gets.
[12:37] Toy Wylie: 255 ms here, Germany, VDSL 50
[12:37] Draconis Neurocam: yes
[12:37] Pauline Darkfury: still adds up, however, when you multiply by 1000
[12:38] Pauline Darkfury: yeah, the UK does have some rather big pipes to the US
[12:38] Latif Khalifa: tripple round trip for tcp * 1000
[12:38] Talarus Luan: So, no backward compatibility, eh? Oh well.
[12:38] Oskar Linden: speaking of kelly. I made a forum just for discussions about the upcoming mono2-performance branch: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/mono2-performance/bd-p/mono2-performance
[12:38] Andrew Linden: Is the group chat on all of aditi? or just a few regions?
[12:39] Simon Linden: Talarus - yes, the group chat system works with both new and old viewers at the same time (I think). The older ones are hooked in via a bridge on the simulator
[12:39] Andrew Linden: I don't see any channel names on aditi that appear to be relevant.
[12:39] Talarus Luan: Oh good. I would hope that would be the case.
[12:39] Sonya Haight: ooh, thanks Oskar
[12:39] Andrew Linden: Simon, so the new group chat is used by default on all of aditi?
[12:39] Andrew Linden: Or are there some hurdles to hop over to actually use it?
[12:40] Simon Linden: I don't know how Aditi is set up
[12:40] Jonathan Yap: You have to be running the XMPP viewer
[12:40] Draconis Neurocam: requires a special viewer is all i know andrew
[12:40] Zwagoth Klaar: I thought it was entirely disconnected from the sim, and just a thing returned by the login server.
[12:40] Andrew Linden: Ah, ok thanks for that info Jonathan.
[12:40] Andrew Linden: and Draconis.
[12:40] Void Singer wonders how we can perfomance test group chat on aditi..... need to try that next beta server meeting?
[12:40] Jonathan Yap: I thought that was what the headless clients could be used for
[12:41] Simon Linden: Zwagoth - I _think_ you're right. Older viewers, however, will still send the old-school messages to the sim, which will then relay them to the XMPP server
[12:41] Jonathan Yap: At some point that bridge will be turned off
[12:41] Simon Linden: Yes
[12:41] Simon Linden: Void - yes, we're looking into using the headless clients to test group chat too
[12:41] Hope Dreier: Hmmmmmm.... and when you enter a sim a message will go to the XMPP server?
[12:42] Simon Linden: ... but we don't have IMs and group chat wired up so we can automate them yet
[12:42] Latif Khalifa: there is a working bridge?
[12:42] Arawn Spitteler: How many stops had been on old Teleportation Trail? Linden$ could be offered, for those who travel it on Aditi
[12:42] Pauline Darkfury: Even with the sim bridging to XMPP for legacy viewers, that's going to be a win over the current system, isn't it? It should eliminate the current central bottleneck that causes much of the chat lag?
[12:42] Simon Linden: If we have one, it's on Aditi
[12:42] Latif Khalifa: last time i looked there wasn't any
[12:42] Talarus Luan: yep, is what I figured
[12:42] Simon Linden: We certainly hope so, Pauline :)
[12:43] Talarus Luan: group chat issues have mostly been an overloaded centralized system
[12:43] Latif Khalifa: yes
[12:43] Maeva Anatine: When is the planned date for the new group chat release ?
[12:43] Latif Khalifa: march 31 ;)
[12:44] Maeva Anatine: :)
[12:44] Andrew Linden doesn't know the planned release date for group-chat.
[12:44] Zwagoth Klaar: xmpp is still a "centralized" system, though it can be distributed a bit, but its still a tight mesh of servers. I just wonder if the issue of looking people up in groups and shunting them into xmpp chatrooms is going to get overloaded or not.
[12:44] Draconis Neurocam: z its running on ejabbered, i think it should be fine
[12:44] Toy Wylie: XMPP is well-tested with groups larger than SL's concurrency ;)
[12:45] Latif Khalifa: Zwagoth, ejabberd people claim 100k concurent users per server. LL has 4. It should work.
[12:45] Zwagoth Klaar: I don't see any issue with jabber itself, no.
[12:45] Kelly Linden: Toy: Do you have an example of such imeplementation? Large group chat not jsut large numbers of users?
[12:45] Zwagoth Klaar: Just the backends that have to push people into those group chats is going to still be as busy as it always was.
[12:45] Ardy Lay: SL probably has more groups with active members than there are active members to be in groups.
[12:45] Pauline Darkfury: I can see there being tuning issues immediately post deploy, once it gets real load, but fundamentally XMPP should be able to cope easily with SL's concurrency
[12:45] Andrew Linden: I asked Seth Linden about the scalability of ejabberd several weeks ago.
[12:46] Toy Wylie: Kelly, I'd have to look if that's actually group chats. I can get back to you about that when I know more.
[12:46] Maeva Anatine: Would XMPP be used only for group chat, or also for avatar presence for instance ?
[12:46] Draconis Neurocam: the whole beauty of ejabbered is that it has the erlang option of just spouting threads of little weight at will
[12:46] Andrew Linden: He's not worried about ejabberd scaling.
[12:46] Kelly Linden: Cool Toy. I was never able to find an existing deployment that came close to our use case so I'm definitely interested in hearing about some.
[12:47] Andrew Linden: However there is a bit of glue code for our auth and voice chat features.
[12:47] Zwagoth Klaar: No, I trust jabber to scale just fine. It's the other things I worry about.
[12:47] Andrew Linden: So if anything fails scalability we would expect the problems to show up there.
[12:48] Pauline Darkfury: Hopefully the servers have Binford NIC-4000s to cope with the packet rate ;)
[12:48] Maeva Anatine: How can I see details about how XMPP is being implemented by LL ?
[12:49] Draconis Neurocam: http://hg.secondlife.com/viewer-xmpp/overview
[12:49] Maeva Anatine: Tx draconis
[12:49] Hope Dreier: My question would be, "Is there going to be a change in the behaivior of Group chats? Specificly will they auto open after a login, and will thay stay closed after a close?
[12:49] Andrew Linden: Maeva, I'll ask around to see if I can find some public info about our XMPP project.
[12:49] Maeva Anatine: Tx Andrew
[12:49] Andrew Linden: Or I could try to find an engineer to attend one of these meetings to answer questions.
[12:49] Jonathan Yap: https://bitbucket.org/lindenlab/viewer-xmpp/ for the source
[12:50] Maeva Anatine: Will you tell me what you intend to do Andrew ? :)
[12:50] Zwagoth Klaar: I'm going to guess the client just auto joins all of the groups upon login, and when you close it, you leave the room until you open it again.
[12:50] Zwagoth Klaar should look into that.
[12:50] Latif Khalifa: Zwgoth, exactly
[12:50] Jonathan Yap: You can use other clients to connect to the xmpp server, such as pidgin, etc
[12:50] Hope Dreier: One would hope that would be the case.
[12:50] Andrew Linden: Maeva, I'll ask around for public info first.
[12:51] Andrew Linden: If I schedule someone to attend here I'll send you an IM.
[12:51] Maeva Anatine: ok tx :
[12:51] Maeva Anatine: Got all my questions answered. Bb everyone ! Tx !
[12:51] Rex Cronon: tc
[12:52] Oskar Linden logs off as well
[12:52] Pauline Darkfury: take care, Oskar
[12:52] Oskar Linden: enjoy your new server code!
[12:52] Hope Dreier: be well Oskar
[12:52] Gooden Uggla: see ya oskar
[12:52] Oskar Linden: 1 resident told me this server was the best they had ever seen
[12:52] Rex Cronon: tc
[12:53] Oskar Linden: :-)
[12:53] Andrew Linden: what server is that?
[12:53] Oskar Linden: last weeks magnum
[12:53] Oskar Linden: which is this weeks main release
[12:53] Gooden Uggla: lol
[12:53] Andrew Linden: Ah
[12:53] Pauline Darkfury: Mmm, but how many servers has that resident seen? ;)
[12:53] TankMaster Finesmith: andrew, would you have any cluse as to why we are getting a lot more reports of people getting the message related to them being hardware banned when they arent? we have them contact LL support and they are usually able to resolve the issue
[12:53] TankMaster Finesmith: clues*
[12:54] Andrew Linden: TankMaster, no I don't know why that would be.
[12:54] TankMaster Finesmith: ok
[12:54] Andrew Linden: I'll see if I can find out anything.
[12:54] Pauline Darkfury: are they getting blocked at initial login, TankMaster?
[12:54] TankMaster Finesmith: yes
[12:54] TankMaster Finesmith: on any viewer except imprudence and acent
[12:54] Pauline Darkfury: can't say I've heard of it, personally
[12:55] TankMaster Finesmith: we got 6 reports today in our support, which is a lot more than normal
[12:55] Void Singer: Andrew, I sent you the wrong copy of the object.... sending you the correct one... all you have to do to see the link issue is shift drag
[12:56] Andrew Linden: Void, the object you just gave me... is that the linkability problem object?
[12:57] Void Singer: yes
[12:57] Void Singer: it's obviously big so uh, probably dont wanna rez it here
[12:57] Andrew Linden: ok thanks. There are instructions on it?
[12:57] Andrew Linden: how big? megaprims?
[12:57] Void Singer: shift drag a copy of it, you'll notice the copy loses 3 pieces
[12:58] Sonya Haight: you actually read the instructions?
[12:58] Void Singer: no, just a little over 54m overall
[12:58] Andrew Linden: Sonya, I do read instructions if I can't figure it out telepathically.
[12:58] Pauline Darkfury: lol, good answer
[12:58] Sonya Haight: nifty, someone that reads instructions, there is hope!
[12:59] Arawn Spitteler: Developers always demand documentation, in case guessing doesn't work
[12:59] Void Singer: instructions are for people that don't know what needs to be done already (sounds insulting but it's actually true)
[12:59] Andrew Linden: Sorry, what I meant to say is... first I try it without reading the instructions. If I fail then I go back and read them. ;-)
[12:59] Simon Linden: I'm going to have to run ... thanks everyone for coming today and the good discussion
[12:59] TankMaster Finesmith: tc simon
[12:59] Sonya Haight: sounds about right, but by then you've already broken it
[12:59] Latif Khalifa: yes, "when everything else fails, read the manual" :P
[13:00] Pauline Darkfury: hehe, that's the correct engineering approach, don't forget the brute force int he middle ;)
[13:00] Qie Niangao: Thanks Simon
[13:00] Simon Linden: Bye all
[13:00] Latif Khalifa: tke care Simon
[13:00] Latif Khalifa: bye
[13:00] Toy Wylie: People who read instructions usually don't need them. People who need them usually don't read instructions ...
[13:00] Meeter: Welcome to the Server User Group
[13:00] Pauline Darkfury: Take care, Simon
[13:00] Draconis Neurocam: take care simon, and andrew
[13:00] Opensource Obscure: bye everybody
[13:00] Arawn Spitteler: There might be something to that, since instructions won't do much, until you know what a Lever might look like.
[13:00] Rex Cronon: tc all those leaving
[13:00] Andrew Linden: Ok I've got to go too. I've got a meeting that starts now and someone just reminded me not to be late.
[13:00] TankMaster Finesmith: hehe
[13:00] Talarus Luan: Take care Andrew
[13:00] TankMaster Finesmith: tc andrew
[13:00] Pauline Darkfury whispers: thanks, Andrew, have a good one :)
[13:00] Andrew Linden: thanks for coming everyone.
[13:00] Arawn Spitteler: Don't be tardy, either
[13:00] Qie Niangao: Thanks Andrew. Buy all, have fun!
[13:01] Void Singer: hasta luego
[13:01] Hope Dreier: good meeting
[13:01] Talarus Luan: Buy all? :OP
[13:01] Latif Khalifa: bye everybody, have fun :)
[13:01] Arawn Spitteler: There's no reason to schedule a meeting, if you're going to be late
[13:01] Void Singer: if you get stuck andrew there's some notes in your IM
Simulator_User_Group
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