User Experience Interest Group/Transcripts/2009-05-14

== Topic & Summary ==
User Experience Interest Group Discussion for May 14, 2009.
Topic: Misc. (Magnetic Floaters, Chat Tabs).
No summary is yet available for this meeting. Please edit this page to add one.
=== Links ===
* 
* Screenshot of McCabe's "X unread IMs" feature
== Transcript ==
[15:15]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, well, let's get started. Open topic today, but Armin mentioned something about magnetic floaters? Care to talk more on that for a bit, Armin?
[15:16]	Armin Weatherwax: 	it was just an idea this afternoon
[15:16]	Aimee Trescothick: 	I'd also like to vaguely direct attention to http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-13221 but that can wait
[15:16]	Charlette Proto: 	most layer probs have been fixed, but I have heard some cyies about HUDs eg Darling Brodie
[15:16]	Armin Weatherwax: 	but unbaked yet
[15:16]	Morgaine Dinova vaguely clicks on the vague link 	Morgaine Dinova vaguely clicks on the vague link
[15:17]	Armin Weatherwax: 	maybe like winamp docks controls and playlist - wouldnt that be nice for docking minimap and minimap gadgets
[15:17]	Armin Weatherwax: 	?
[15:17]	Morgaine Dinova: 	So ... docking?
[15:17]	Aimee Trescothick: 	yep, docking floaters, always wanted those :)
[15:17]	Aimee Trescothick: 	like palettes in photoplop etc.
[15:17]	Jacek Antonelli: 	So if you move related floaters together, they "stick" like magnets?
[15:18]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Or would it work for any floaters?
[15:18]	Armin Weatherwax: 	yes
[15:18]	Jacek Antonelli: 	(Not just related ones)
[15:18]	Morgaine Dinova: 	But we already have that
[15:18]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Their edges already stick
[15:18]	Jacek Antonelli: 	But they don't stick when you move them, Morgaine
[15:18]	Armin Weatherwax: 	do we ?
[15:18]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Not very strongly, but they do stick
[15:18]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Is it snapping next to each other, or snap as tabs?
[15:18]	Charlette Proto: 	the toolbar if movet to the top would be a natural place to dock and display iconc of the docked floaters
[15:18]	Techwolf Lupindo returns to read "docking" only to relise it for something else... 	Techwolf Lupindo returns to read "docking" only to relise it for something else...
[15:18]	Armin Weatherwax: 	ah. yeah, i mean sticking to gether when snapped.
[15:19]	Jacek Antonelli: 	They currently snap to other windows when you're positioning them, but they un-stick if you move either one.
[15:19]	Charlette Proto: 	sticking as in dragable together?
[15:19]	Armin Weatherwax: 	(sorry this is hard to think in german and say in english)
[15:19]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Although I seem to recall there being some floaters that really stuck... *looks around*
[15:19]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah, I think that's the idea Charlette
[15:19]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I understand docking is useful for tiny mini-apps, but we don't actually have any. The minimap isn't.
[15:20]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I guess the media control are a mini-app. But can't be moved
[15:20]	Armin Weatherwax: 	yeah, i recently did a patch for the minimap where you can type in a slurl to teleport
[15:20]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Make media controls moveabl?
[15:20]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	I like for some windows to remember there settings and posistion between sessions. Like the Statuics windows and a couplel others...can't think of ht ename now.
[15:20]	Armin Weatherwax: 	which is nice for me, because i want it that way
[15:20]	Charlette Proto: 	you could dock floaters to the taskbar Morgaine
[15:21]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Charlette: but there aren't any small floaters.
[15:21]	Armin Weatherwax: 	but for others it would maybe nicer to decide uif they want it together or seprerated
[15:21]	Armin Weatherwax: 	(if at all)
[15:21]	Charlette Proto: 	the chat tears off into its own position
[15:21]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Charlette: sure, but torn-off chat windows certainly aren't mini-apps
[15:22]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I thought that the texture or color picker used to stick to the build tools. Maybe I'm wrong.
[15:22]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	HI gorn
[15:22]	McCabe Maxsted waves to garn 	McCabe Maxsted waves to garn
[15:22]	Garn Conover: 	can't rely on McCabe for anything!
[15:22]	Charlette Proto: 	yes but on the tasbar one could have floater icons for the ones you use (have used) before
[15:22]	Garmin Kawaguichi: 	hi Garn!!
[15:22]	Garn Conover: 	allo
[15:22]	McCabe Maxsted: 	bah, *screws with your pie menu* :P
[15:22]	Morgaine Dinova: 	HUDs can often be thought of as mini-apps. Apart from those, I think only the media controls qualify ... if they could be moved.
[15:22]	Aimee Trescothick eats your pie menu 	Aimee Trescothick eats your pie menu
[15:22]	Garn Conover: 	whats the topic today?
[15:22]	Charlette Proto: 	YUS PLEASE UNSCREW MY PIE MENU
[15:23]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Good thing there isn't a drough going on now. The dry grass couldn't handle you. :-)
[15:23]	Armin Weatherwax: 	hmmm... pie menu ....
[15:23]	Aimee Trescothick loosens the screws so it could fail at any moment 	Aimee Trescothick loosens the screws so it could fail at any moment
[15:23]	McCabe Maxsted: 	it's an open topic garn, but right now we're talking about window docking
[15:23]	Charlette Proto: 	yes the hidden 'detach' and 'edit'
[15:23]	Morgaine Dinova: 	lol
[15:23]	Tiny Blue Kitty Head: Please type 'X help' for more help with commands 	Tiny Blue Kitty Head: Please type 'X help' for more help with commands
[15:23]	Tiny Blue Kitty Head: Please type 'X help' for more help with commands 	Tiny Blue Kitty Head: Please type 'X help' for more help with commands
[15:24]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Morgaine: mini-apps aren't the only possible application of sticking/docking. Use your imagination. ;)
[15:24]	StarSong Bright: 	is this one free or am i not rezzing peeps yet?
[15:24]	Charlette Proto: 	I get wtice as meny clicks getting dressed since 1,23
[15:24]	Garn Conover: 	i half to laugh @ LL they took the new pie menu's from u guys but never did the hud fix
[15:24]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hey Star! That one's free :)
[15:24]	McCabe Maxsted: 	woo, star!
[15:24]	Techwolf Lupindo whispers: What HUD fix was that? 	Techwolf Lupindo whispers: What HUD fix was that?
[15:25]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek: suggestions? I can't see any small dockable things available. You can't dock large apps by definition, because they all have different sizes so "not in dock".
[15:25]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I would rather prefer putting the detach/edit menu at the first right-click and have the avatar menu in a "More>"
[15:25]	Garn Conover: 	Tech, the hud on RC show the av pie menu
[15:25]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Morgaine: Maybe I want to dock my IM window under my local chat window, so I can move them around together. As one example of a possible use.
[15:25]	Geneko Nemeth: 	It wouldn't be a problem if we had constraint-based layhouts.
[15:26]	Charlette Proto: 	sure Geneko me too
[15:26]	StarSong Bright: 	that change to the pie menu in the rc is hidious, i keep ending up in appearance mode every time i turn around.. grrrrr
[15:26]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek: that's not docking, there's no dock.
[15:26]	Garn Conover: 	Star, imprudence was the same until it got fixed
[15:26]	Charlette Proto: 	precisely Star and you get double clicks
[15:26]	Jacek Antonelli: 	We're talking about "magnetic sticking". Whatever you want to call it.
[15:26]	Morgaine Dinova: 	You're just sticking windows together, not placing them in a dock
[15:26]	Jacek Antonelli facepalms. 	Jacek Antonelli facepalms.
[15:26]	Charlette Proto: 	yep lets get back to the theme for now
[15:27]	Armin Weatherwax: 	Morgaine: thats the word i used because of my bad english vocabulary, think of it as asomething magnetic
[15:27]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Well, it does sound like docking... like in GIMP.
[15:27]	Charlette Proto: 	Garn could you please stand to the side since I can't visually mute your avie
[15:27]	Geneko Nemeth: 	(Or Photoshop.)
[15:27]	Morgaine Dinova: 	You can't make words up as you go along. The "dock" concept is well established in GUI systems: a dock is a place, usually along an edge, and apps move to it.
[15:28]	Morgaine Dinova: 	It's very different to windows sticking together
[15:28]	Charlette Proto: 	that is why I suggested a toolbar at the top (for many other reasons too) as a place to dock
[15:28]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Are we confusing you, or are you just being nitpicky and taking it out of context?
[15:28]	Charlette Proto: 	thanks Garn
[15:29]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek: you're being ambiguous, and probably on purpose since you know better than to use ambiguity unecessarily.
[15:29]	Morgaine Dinova: 	So, are we talking about traditonal GUI docks, or something else?
[15:30]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Probably all three kinds of docks.
[15:30]	Charlette Proto: 	agrees mixing UI metaphores needs a good reason or else should be avoided
[15:30]	McCabe Maxsted: 	"all three"?
[15:30]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Task switching+tabbed windows+window snapping.
[15:30]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I'm using "dock" as a shorthand verb to describe the action related to sticking two floaters together. If that's too much to wrap your mind around, feel free to program a chat filter to replace "dock" with "magnetically stick windows together".
[15:30]	Mm Alder: 	How about a flotilla? :-)
[15:31]	Morgaine Dinova: 	lol
[15:31]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Heheh..ack! Couch!
[15:31]	StarSong Bright is strongly opposed to all filtering lol! 	StarSong Bright is strongly opposed to all filtering lol!
[15:32]	Charlette Proto: 	but that is not stricktly docking, the comms window is more like a docking example when it comes to a dragging groups of UI elements
[15:32]	StarSong Bright: 	(but thats another convo)
[15:32]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hehe
[15:32]	StarSong Bright: 	am i the only one who likes the communicaiton window? I was estatic when they glommed all the tabs together in one window
[15:32]	Morgaine Dinova: 	What's the 3rd one? We have 1) Traditional dock location along a GUI edge, 2) Windows being sticky along an edge, and being moveable together. 3) ???
[15:33]	McCabe Maxsted: 	maybe
[15:33]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Fine. Let's call it "stick", then. Or should we spend the rest of the meeting discussing semantics?
[15:33]	McCabe Maxsted: 	I've gotten used to it enough by this point that my opinion's prolly void
[15:33]	Geneko Nemeth: 	1 is a task switcher. 3 is joining/splltting multiple windows into one.
[15:33]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek: we're trying to analyse and describe the semantics.
[15:33]	Morgaine Dinova: 	What's 3) ?
[15:34]	Charlette Proto: 	but having a precise term help to clear things up Jacek
[15:34]	Jacek Antonelli: 	3) Is attaching/detaching windows/tabs from each other
[15:34]	StarSong Bright: 	i would like to see them done like the newest photoshop where they are both dockable and tearable. it takes some gettgn used to, but heh this is the sl interface, its already a train wreck
[15:34]	Jacek Antonelli: 	As in the communicate window, where you can detach one conversation from the whole
[15:34]	Garmin Kawaguichi: 	3) Toolbar?
[15:34]	Charlette Proto: 	as i said nothing worse than teaching people imprecise UI terms
[15:34]	Armin Weatherwax: 	ok, morainesticktype 2 is what i meant .... lol... so any thoughts useful ? not ? waste of time ?
[15:34]	McCabe Maxsted was actually thinking earlier about possible ways to sort out all the different ways to access features. Do we really need five different ways to access the friends list for example? or non? But that's a bigger topic	McCabe Maxsted was actually thinking earlier about possible ways to sort out all the different ways to access features. Do we really need five different ways to access the friends list for example? or non? But that's a bigger topic
[15:34]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Or "tear off", if you prefer that term. Although that too is ambiguous. :P
[15:35]	Charlette Proto: 	yeah please open up the toolbar to extra elementc and move it to the top
[15:35]	Mm Alder: 	I noticed in the comments for some code recently checked into trunk some talk about a skinning/viewer2.0 branch. Anyone know anything about that?
[15:35]	StarSong Bright smiles sympathetically at jacek 	StarSong Bright smiles sympathetically at jacek
[15:35]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Why to the top? It's easier to click on the bottom.
[15:35]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Armin: if people want something, it's not a waste of time. :-) It seems that all 3 are desired. :-)
[15:35]	McCabe Maxsted: 	yeah, they're finally stepping up the skinning work
[15:36]	McCabe Maxsted: 	I'm guessing vewer 2.0 is the new ui they're designing behind closed doors?
[15:36]	Aimee Trescothick: 	that'll be the big spaceship stuff I guess
[15:36]	Charlette Proto: 	I believe the toolbar at the top is not only more natural but also more visible geneko and bottom should be a status bar
[15:36]	StarSong Bright: 	i agree charlette
[15:37]	Charlette Proto: 	nobody bu archaic 3D appl uses the bottom for app toolbars
[15:37]	Charlette Proto: 	apps*
[15:37]	Geneko Nemeth: 	But we already have a status bar. It's called Tooltips. It's just not always on and doesn't pop up when you point the mouse at objects immediately.
[15:37]	Charlette Proto: 	noobs don't even see the toolbar because it is at the bottom of screen Geneko
[15:37]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Can we turn the bottom toolbar into a dock(1)?
[15:38]	StarSong Bright: 	whats worse, they can turn it off in the vie wmenu and then not even realize they did, and then cant figure out how to do anything
[15:38]	StarSong Bright: 	(the bottom toolbar i mean)
[15:38]	Geneko Nemeth didn't know that. 	Geneko Nemeth didn't know that.
[15:39]	McCabe Maxsted: 	yeah. That always bugged me
[15:39]	Charlette Proto: 	well how about being able to switch between top or bottom toolbar and making it the place to dock floaters
[15:39]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Oh, talking about tooltips, we had a massive AW Groupies session on accessibility on Tuesday, very enlightening. I think there's going to be a lot more said on that subject.
[15:39]	Charlette Proto: 	even undock the mixer and voice control buttons
[15:39]	McCabe Maxsted: 	jacek disagrees with me on that one, hehe
[15:39]	McCabe Maxsted: 	on tooltips?
[15:40]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Disagrees on what? Being able to hide the toolbar?
[15:40]	Armin Weatherwax: 	tooltips dirive me mad, they always cover what i actually want to see
[15:40]	Charlette Proto: 	me too Aimee
[15:40]	McCabe Maxsted: 	yeah, wasn't htat it?
[15:40]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Not specically about tooltips, but it's just that metadata of the tooltip kind needs to be convertible into alternative representations for acessibility.
[15:41]	Mm Alder: 	Programatically, docking two widgets is easy. Floaters have a tree structure. Advanced->XUI->Show XUI names will show you the details. To dock two things, just make them siblings.
[15:41]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Eg. the blind don't use mice, but the metadata is extremely useful to them.
[15:41]	Aimee Trescothick: 	me too what? I didn't say anything :D
[15:41]	Garn Conover: 	ok *nuzzles and lix* back to rl for soem time tc all
[15:41]	Charlette Proto: 	sometimes I forget what I'm actually pointing too because it is obscured by tooltips and the brain interprets the change in a weird way
[15:41]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Tc Garn
[15:41]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Take care Garn
[15:41]	McCabe Maxsted: 	see you garn
[15:41]	StarSong Bright: 	bye garn
[15:41]	Charlette Proto: 	bye Garn
[15:42]	Armin Weatherwax: 	bye Garn
[15:42]	Garmin Kawaguichi: 	bye
[15:42]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Window edges already have magnetic affinity in the viewer, so locking them tight just requires setting the attraction to max, or high.
[15:43]	Charlette Proto: 	but I agree the 'tooltips' could be optional for special users
[15:43]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Not exactly, Morgaine. The magnetic snapping only affects the floater you're moving; it doesn't attract any other floaters
[15:43]	Charlette Proto: 	but they tear apart Morgaine when moved and for some it is the desired behaviour
[15:44]	Jacek Antonelli: 	It'd require some changes in behavior. But, it would be feasible.
[15:44]	Jacek Antonelli: 	And it's an interesting concept.
[15:44]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yeah, currently it's bidirectional. To lock, you'd have to add some kind of snap action once in place.
[15:44]	Geneko Nemeth: 	If they move together when sticky, how would you separate them?
[15:44]	Charlette Proto: 	that is why I find the whole idea a mixed metaphor
[15:45]	Jacek Antonelli: 	That's a good question, Geneko. And more generally, how would the user control which floaters stick, and when? Thoughts on that, anyone?
[15:45]	McCabe Maxsted: 	so say dragging a window around your screen would cause it to lock into various positions with other windows, maybe resize them?
[15:45]	Armin Weatherwax: 	maybe a visual metaphor icon for un/sticking them together
[15:45]	Geneko Nemeth: 	And you'll soon get a Floater Katamari.
[15:45]	Geneko Nemeth: 	What about a glue gun.
[15:45]	McCabe Maxsted: 	wb aimee :)
[15:46]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Perhaps you could perform some click operation on the shared border of the windows.
[15:46]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Say, right click on the border to toggle sticking, or something to that effect.
[15:46]	Charlette Proto: 	I believe docking into something (eg like comms) is the only way to go you just don't have permanent sticking of elements ans a natural behaviour in UI elements
[15:47]	Mm Alder: 	I imagine trying to get adhesive tape off of your hands.
[15:47]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehe
[15:47]	StarSong Bright laughs good visual 	StarSong Bright laughs good visual
[15:47]	Morgaine Dinova: 	lol
[15:47]	Charlette Proto: 	yeah give us bits of tape to work with
[15:47]	McCabe Maxsted: 	duct tape fixes everything in rl; why not in the ui
[15:47]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hah
[15:47]	StarSong Bright considers a post it note on the bottom of morgaine's little kitty foot, thats always entertaining 	StarSong Bright considers a post it note on the bottom of morgaine's little kitty foot, thats always entertaining
[15:47]	Charlette Proto: 	or buldog clips to keep them in place
[15:47]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Mm: makes me wonder if we're solving a problem or creating one :-)
[15:48]	Jacek Antonelli: 	But the whole viewer is already held together with duct tape
[15:48]	McCabe Maxsted: 	shhh
[15:48]	StarSong Bright: 	if you are consdiering these kinds of dock, a reset to default layout in the menus is a necessity
[15:48]	McCabe Maxsted: 	it's very self conscious of its appearance
[15:48]	McCabe Maxsted pats the poor viewer on its patchwork little head. "There there. The bad lady didn't mean it" 	McCabe Maxsted pats the poor viewer on its patchwork little head. "There there. The bad lady didn't mean it"
[15:48]	Charlette Proto: 	agree Morgaine unless we follow some established metaphor we are not going to get very far
[15:48]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Don't anthropomorphize the viewer, it really hates that.
[15:48]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hehe
[15:49]	Aimee Trescothick: 	no Fred might get angry
[15:49]	StarSong Bright: 	smiles
[15:49]	Jacek Antonelli: 	There would definitely be a lot of things to consider from a usability standpoint, before doing something like this
[15:49]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Everything is better with furries! ... oh wait, not that kind of anthro...
[15:49]	Charlette Proto: 	get some linguists here please
[15:49]	Mm Alder: 	Jacek: nah, Linden never does. :-)
[15:49]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hehehe
[15:50]	Charlette Proto: 	what about a furrie viewer with paws and claws to stick and move floaters
[15:50]	StarSong Bright: 	there are a couple improvements i would like to see on the current communicate window
[15:50]	Morgaine Dinova: 	(i) IM should work :P
[15:50]	StarSong Bright: 	one, an easy resize feature to make it wide enough to show me all my tabs, or max screen width, whichever is smaller
[15:50]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe
[15:51]	StarSong Bright: 	or a way to put the tabs on the side instead of across the bottom
[15:51]	Charlette Proto: 	agrees with Star also names should be shortened to reveal all (even better)
[15:51]	StarSong Bright: 	yes! pelase!!!!
[15:52]	StarSong Bright: 	its not like first anme wouldnt be enough, or first name and first letter of last name
[15:52]	Charlette Proto: 	and let the user expand to see the entire names
[15:52]	McCabe Maxsted: 	I've found this change to be pretty handy when it comes to finding IMs: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mccabemaxsted/3472099080/
[15:52]	Morgaine Dinova admires Armin's patch of lawn ... or is that astroturf? ;-) 	Morgaine Dinova admires Armin's patch of lawn ... or is that astroturf? ;-)
[15:52]	StarSong Bright: 	having them as tabs on left or right would really be useful. if there was a tool button at the top, that woudl just let you toggle back and forth
[15:53]	Armin Weatherwax: 	hehe, btw of IM anything new about integrating IRC/XMPP/whatever ? I read in sldev someone is at libpurple ...
[15:53]	Charlette Proto: 	I think shortening them when the need arises is a simplest to code solution and a fair one at that considering the group names
[15:53]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Armin: that's interesting
[15:53]	Charlette Proto: 	groups don't follow the two name paradigm
[15:53]	StarSong Bright: 	well on the right or left woudl definitely require shortening, but if that side of the window were adjsutable, it woudl be up to the user what to see
[15:54]	McCabe Maxsted: 	so a draggable width for IM name space?
[15:54]	Armin Weatherwax: 	astroturf ????
[15:54]	Morgaine Dinova: 	:-)
[15:54]	StarSong Bright: 	sure, why not?
[15:54]	McCabe Maxsted thinks that'd be fun 	McCabe Maxsted thinks that'd be fun
[15:54]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Since tabs alredy have tooltips with the full name, is it a problem?
[15:55]	StarSong Bright: 	would be nice ot be able to change the order too
[15:55]	StarSong Bright: 	i dont see why it owuld be Morgaine
[15:55]	McCabe Maxsted: 	like sort by name? or drag tab positions like in FF?
[15:55]	Charlette Proto: 	I think resizable tabs are too obscure I would simpley truncate them to punish those with long names
[15:55]	Charlette Proto: 	simply*
[15:55]	StarSong Bright: 	drag positions
[15:55]	Charlette Proto: 	I hate the stupidity of long names hehe
[15:56]	StarSong Bright: 	if i am having a primary disucssion with someone, and dont feel like tearing the window off, it woudl be ncie to put it first and have all new ones pop under or something
[15:56]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Perhaps add max and min tab label lengths.
[15:56]	McCabe Maxsted: 	yeah, definitely
[15:57]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hey Dzonatas
[15:57]	Dzonatas Sol: 	Hello
[15:57]	StarSong Bright waves to dz 	StarSong Bright waves to dz
[15:57]	Armin Weatherwax: 	hi :)
[15:57]	McCabe Maxsted: 	ahoy dzonatas
[15:57]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Have a seat Dzon :-)
[15:58]	Dzonatas Sol: 	ty
[15:59]	Charlette Proto: 	trunkating the long names as the space runs out really is the fairest principle and user resising is a bit of an overkill in my eyes
[15:59]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Here's a speculative question ... what happens to Comms window when we have hundreds or thousands of groups?
[15:59]	Morgaine Dinova: 	As we will in Opensim
[15:59]	McCabe Maxsted: 	viewer explosion?
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehe
[15:59]	Charlette Proto: 	multiple lines of tabs would work morgaine
[15:59]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Haha
[16:00]	Dzonatas Sol: 	scrollable tabs
[16:00]	Charlette Proto: 	like windows floaters
[16:00]	StarSong Bright: 	well we would not have them all open at once?
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Firefox's solution to that is a drop-down menu with a list of all the open tabs.
[16:00]	StarSong Bright: 	i may jsut be a touch too popular but i often have about a dozen tabs open.... this tray is anoying, i am forced to use 1/4 of my screen to strtch it out and see everything. it makes me nuts
[16:01]	Charlette Proto: 	stack width adjusted (trunkated as need be) tabs into multiple rows
[16:01]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Somehting like I have now. Right now, there is severl active groups chats going on. I have many hidden tabs and is missing IM due to this. The tabs don't shrink down, so long group names take a lot of space.
[16:01]	McCabe Maxsted: 	*ponders out loud* we could save space by not even having tabs, just keeping the scrollable list that'd take you between IMs
[16:01]	Morgaine Dinova: 	McCabe: explain further pls :-)
[16:01]	StarSong Bright: 	hmm no, i think i like the tabs, but i would like an option to have htem on the side, jsut first name or resizable
[16:01]	Charlette Proto: 	at least you don't have to restart the viewer to resize the comm box Star
[16:02]	StarSong Bright: 	thats not the problem
[16:02]	StarSong Bright: 	i run out of space
[16:02]	StarSong Bright: 	then there are tabs hidden behind
[16:02]	StarSong Bright: 	and the new ones go back there where i dont se them
[16:02]	Charlette Proto: 	but the side placement is such a diff solution and multiple rows just extend the current paradigm
[16:02]	Garmin Kawaguichi: 	with the tabs on the side add the possibility to narrow the communicate window as we see only the tabs!
[16:02]	StarSong Bright: 	this happens alo tduring my sim events when everybody wnts a piece of me... now, i realize, my experience is NOT your standard user experience hehe
[16:02]	McCabe Maxsted: 	you'd still run out of space with vertical tabs
[16:02]	Morgaine Dinova: 	McCabe: ah, you mean the scrollable list gets highlighted when there's something new in a group?
[16:02]	McCabe Maxsted: 	haha
[16:03]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Even with my chat window streach to the full with of the screen, there are still tabs hidden and my view is now blocked by the chat window.\
[16:03]	Dzonatas Sol: 	How about an "inactive button" that when you press on it displays all the inactive sessions, then it would be easy to keep only active sessions shown. Inactive sessions would be moved to the inactive area.
[16:03]	Charlette Proto: 	tabs on the side never works as an option the constraints are very different
[16:03]	McCabe Maxsted: 	yeah, basically; new IMs would change the background color of the name or something
[16:03]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Or..how about the ability to move the tabs around, changing the order that they apear.
[16:04]	Charlette Proto: 	that is a good idea Tech
[16:04]	Morgaine Dinova: 	McCabe, yeah, that would work. I expect we'll need sorting and searching among group names once the groups explosion occurs.
[16:04]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	New tabs allowys apear next to local. Then one can move the chatting group chat out of the way. While one can close the noisy group chat, when one does, will forever miss any importment stuff hours later.
[16:04]	McCabe Maxsted: 	now that's interesting; on the fly searching through your IMs, like in your inv?
[16:04]	Charlette Proto: 	I get group crap which I'd move to the end since I can't mute (BTW should be able to mute groups )
[16:05]	Armin Weatherwax: 	hm. grouping of contacts would be anice thing anyway
[16:05]	Morgaine Dinova: 	McCabe: and maybe "order preferences", to keep certain groups near the top of list always.
[16:05]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Ooh, yeah. As-you-type searching through tabs. :D
[16:05]	McCabe Maxsted: 	could have a little lock icon to keep the position, yeah
[16:05]	Charlette Proto: 	like the inv, one should be able to TAG friends
[16:05]	Jacek Antonelli: 	And groups... and friends... everything that's a list must have as-you-type searching! *cackles maniacally*
[16:06]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hahaha
[16:06]	McCabe Maxsted: 	okay, we've officially lost Jacek to google :)
[16:06]	Charlette Proto: 	McCabe a pin will do it being consistent with the sticky tape metaphor
[16:06]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Charlette: I seem to recall a Linden saying that "Mute Group" (temporary) is already in the code fora future release.
[16:06]	StarSong Bright: 	actually .. mc... a list might work... if it was like the groups now, with the chat window at the bottom, so that when you click on a name in the list you see JUST the im window for that person and the box to type to them... sometiems its too easy to get in the wrong tab heh *blush*... the right interface could help with that
[16:06]	StarSong Bright: 	lol jacek
[16:07]	McCabe Maxsted nods. I know I've done that too when I could just see half a name, hehe 	McCabe Maxsted nods. I know I've done that too when I could just see half a name, hehe
[16:07]	Charlette Proto: 	yep that happens but usually because the new one pops where you were at
[16:08]	StarSong Bright: 	nods!
[16:09]	Armin Weatherwax: 	dunno what the friend conception is in different cultures, but i just gues its not that different ... some are closer and some are not and the dialogbog text that was translated to german referres tio very close friends. guess the english does, too
[16:09]	StarSong Bright: 	i wish the whole window and tab on teh acgtive im woudl be another color, a DIFFERENT color, not jsut lighter and darker
[16:09]	Charlette Proto: 	a simple thing is to make the trunkation (we already truncate) a logical as need be attribute and add multiple row option for those who would rather see more of the names
[16:10]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Starsong: the tab colouring was done by a colour blind person in LL.
[16:10]	McCabe Maxsted: 	huh, interesting. That'd be pretty simple to try out in colors.xml
[16:10]	StarSong Bright: 	um
[16:10]	StarSong Bright: 	yeah, ok i can bleive it
[16:10]	StarSong Bright: 	it is NOT nearly distinct enough
[16:10]	McCabe Maxsted makes all of stars' active windows purple 	McCabe Maxsted makes all of stars' active windows purple
[16:10]	StarSong Bright: 	it doesnt ahve to be garish or anything but come on!
[16:10]	StarSong Bright: 	yes!!!!!
[16:10]	StarSong Bright: 	pelase :-)
[16:11]	Morgaine Dinova: 	It confuses absolutely everybody, even Lindens. They're regularly writing lines to AW Groupies by accident.
[16:11]	Armin Weatherwax: 	purple is nice :)
[16:11]	McCabe Maxsted: 	the line: <FocusBackgroundColor value="165, 180, 200, 245" />
[16:11]	Charlette Proto: 	Star spams chat with colour preferences hehe - I like purple
[16:12]	McCabe Maxsted: 	I think that would do it for most of the windows? *forgets*
[16:12]	McCabe Maxsted would love to get an IM from star tomorrow saying "this is so much better!" or "I hate this!" hehe 	McCabe Maxsted would love to get an IM from star tomorrow saying "this is so much better!" or "I hate this!" hehe
[16:12]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Dark purple, light purple, slightly darker purple, not so light purple .... what the problem folks? ;-)
[16:12]	StarSong Bright: 	smiles, is that in the debug settigns mc?
[16:13]	Armin Weatherwax: 	LOOOOL
[16:13]	Charlette Proto: 	lets avoid colour preferences by discussing colour schemes for skins another time
[16:13]	Charlette Proto: 	likes orange
[16:13]	McCabe Maxsted: 	it's in colors_base.xml, which is in your skin folder in your program files
[16:13]	Jacek Antonelli likes orange jelly beans 	Jacek Antonelli likes orange jelly beans
[16:13]	StarSong Bright: 	hm thats too much trouble
[16:13]	Charlette Proto: 	what about truncation of tabs and multiple rows - such a simple way to address many of the probs
[16:13]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Aimee: wb to the land of the non-grey :-)
[16:14]	Aimee Trescothick: 	heh
[16:14]	McCabe Maxsted: 	yeah, heh. Supposedly it's going to be a lot easier with some of the skinning changes that are being worked on
[16:14]	Charlette Proto: 	hates the warm grey of the default skin
[16:14]	StarSong Bright: 	hmm i foudn it in debug and changed it there, but idk if i have to relog, loks like
[16:14]	McCabe Maxsted likes lemon jelly beans, himself 	McCabe Maxsted likes lemon jelly beans, himself
[16:14]	Charlette Proto: 	well knowing what is in the works would really help
[16:14]	McCabe Maxsted: 	huh, wonder if it persists
[16:15]	Charlette Proto: 	ah I'd love jellybean viewer myself
[16:15]	Charlette Proto: 	but then look at the way I dress
[16:15]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Oh jeez, just imagine a viewer made up in toddler colours.
[16:15]	StarSong Bright: 	excuse me all lfie is calling
[16:15]	Charlette Proto: 	still silence on multiple rows of tabs hehe
[16:15]	McCabe Maxsted: 	you mean windows XP?
[16:16]	Morgaine Dinova: 	lol
[16:16]	McCabe Maxsted: 	aw, okay star. Glad you could make it :)
[16:16]	Charlette Proto: 	XP Home didn't look half bad
[16:16]	StarSong Bright: 	bye
[16:16]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Cyu Star
[16:16]	Charlette Proto: 	byee Star
[16:16]	Armin Weatherwax: 	bye Star
[16:16]	Aimee Trescothick: 	no, it looked totally bad
[16:16]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hahahaha
[16:16]	Aimee Trescothick: 	that's quite an acheivement
[16:17]	McCabe Maxsted: 	yeah. I wasn't much of a fan either
[16:17]	Charlette Proto: 	did it? I was impressed at the time but don't really remember if it worked long term
[16:18]	Frans Charming just as quietly waves goodbye as he participated. 	Frans Charming just as quietly waves goodbye as he participated.
[16:18]	McCabe Maxsted digs the window button sizes in vista though, with the larger close button 	McCabe Maxsted digs the window button sizes in vista though, with the larger close button
[16:18]	Charlette Proto: 	I hated the Apple Aqua bland colour scheme so I may have been prejudiced towards more colourfull look
[16:18]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Cyu Frans :-)
[16:18]	McCabe Maxsted: 	aw, okay frans
[16:18]	McCabe Maxsted: 	thanks for coming :)
[16:18]	Frans Charming: 	:)
[16:18]	Garmin Kawaguichi: 	bye
[16:19]	Frans Charming waves 	Frans Charming waves
[16:19]	Dzonatas Sol: 	tried the gtk themes?
[16:19]	Armin Weatherwax: 	bye Frans :)
[16:19]	Charlette Proto: 	likes the Vista/Windows 7 windows look
[16:20]	McCabe Maxsted hasn't. I keep meaning to install ubuntu on my laptop.. 	McCabe Maxsted hasn't. I keep meaning to install ubuntu on my laptop..
[16:20]	Charlette Proto: 	OK, still silence on multiple rows of tabs
[16:20]	Morgaine Dinova: 	http://xkcd.com/528/
[16:20]	McCabe Maxsted: 	*laughs*
[16:21]	Aimee Trescothick: 	<3 xkcd
[16:21]	Charlette Proto: 	ubuntu is a bit drab
[16:21]	Techwolf Lupindo grins 	Techwolf Lupindo grins
[16:21]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Charlette: everyone too stunned at the question :P
[16:21]	McCabe Maxsted: 	I love that one
[16:21]	McCabe Maxsted: 	http://xkcd.com/583/ <- also a fav
[16:21]	Charlette Proto: 	question of colour?
[16:21]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Nah, multiple rows of tabs :-)
[16:21]	Dzonatas Sol: 	Here is one gtk theme: http://mono.dzonux.net/file/today.png
[16:22]	Techwolf Lupindo lol and bookmarks 538 	Techwolf Lupindo lol and bookmarks 538
[16:22]	Charlette Proto: 	come on isn't it simple to allow users to expand the depth of tab space to show multiple rows or am I wrong about the simplicity of the solution when it comes to code
[16:23]	Dzonatas Sol: 	multiple rows or scrollable tabs
[16:23]	Jacek Antonelli: 	You've got a detached chat window, Dz? :O
[16:23]	Dzonatas Sol: 	yes
[16:24]	Charlette Proto: 	I understand this is not HTML but our UI could benefit from many solutions popularised in web style UIs
[16:24]	Charlette Proto: 	tabs scroll now but it is a useless solution Dzon
[16:25]	Charlette Proto: 	I prefare to see a bit of each tab (truncated) and being able to extend the tabspace to accommodate multiple rows
[16:26]	Charlette Proto: 	is quite partial to being able to drag tabs to suit their importance or user attention
[16:27]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah, draggable/reorderable tabs are a definite must-have
[16:28]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Some fan of music shuffling is bound to ask for chat tab shuffling ... :P
[16:28]	Aimee Trescothick: 	lol
[16:28]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hehe
[16:28]	Garmin Kawaguichi: 	:)
[16:28]	Charlette Proto: 	the dragging of tabs is not a standard behaviour but in context of our UI it makes sense
[16:28]	McCabe Maxsted: 	the tabs actually run around on screen... you can only IM once you catch one....
[16:29]	Morgaine Dinova: 	LOL
[16:29]	Charlette Proto: 	yep random box messages
[16:29]	Charlette Proto: 	who did I post that comment to
[16:29]	Morgaine Dinova: 	And occasionally a chat tab should dive into the bit bucket, to emulate current IM behaviour.
[16:30]	Charlette Proto: 	how about a bell when you posted to the intended IM box
[16:30]	Dzonatas Sol: 	In my editor, it automatically closes editor tabs if I haven't edited anything in them. It's easy to get them back open with a side panel that appears on click. There is a "context" sensitivity, so only the most recent show per context. One can switch contexts, which would reopen previous sessions automatically. I'm thinking about this context idea for chat windows. Maybe a "business" context and a "meeting" context... maybe a "play" context... if you follow
[16:30]	McCabe Maxsted: 	and depending on how heated it gets the tab grows redder and redder
[16:31]	Morgaine Dinova: 	lol
[16:31]	McCabe Maxsted: 	what editor do you use?
[16:31]	Dzonatas Sol: 	eclipse
[16:31]	Armin Weatherwax: 	kate
[16:32]	Charlette Proto: 	context computing ideas tend to obscure the supposedly 'out of context' and yet important things, we look after many interests at once
[16:32]	McCabe Maxsted really needs to try that... did you have any thoughts on how to label the different contexts? 	McCabe Maxsted really needs to try that... did you have any thoughts on how to label the different contexts?
[16:33]	Charlette Proto: 	eg you may be busy burning time till meeting and context detection will fail to alert you when the relevant/important but out of context event arrives
[16:33]	Charlette Proto: 	no kidding context computing is a bit of a 'theory' an quite hard to pull off
[16:33]	McCabe Maxsted: 	*differentiate, rather. that's a better word
[16:33]	Morgaine Dinova: 	That's a bit like my standard 39 workspaces in the window manager, labelled to reflect my different contexts.
[16:34]	Charlette Proto: 	yeah like entertainment based on your mood
[16:34]	Charlette Proto: 	very hard to code and very personal thing
[16:35]	Charlette Proto: 	some people appear very involved when they are just burning time
[16:35]	Dzonatas Sol: 	how to name... in the editor, the context are stored by task (mylyn). Like when I open a jira issue, the editor automatically opens the sessions for that context stored to the jira issue. It's a burning question to how to relate that to chat windows... my contexts per grid, per avatar, per object held.. hmmm
[16:36]	Charlette Proto: 	multiple rows of automatically truncating tabs instead of the scrolling we have now please
[16:36]	Dzonatas Sol: 	my=maybe
[16:36]	McCabe Maxsted: 	yeah, I'm not sure how that could be pulled off, hmm
[16:37]	Charlette Proto: 	task??? like searching for stuff while waiting for what you really need to do appears just like the primary task Dzon
[16:38]	Morgaine Dinova: 	You know, there must be thousands of apps thinking about the same kinds of UI issues. Why oh why isn't there an infinitely configurable graphic front end, that does no applications work but just the UI, which you bind to any app?
[16:38]	Charlette Proto: 	honestly context is not a very simple thing when you get beyond single linear execution scenarios eg Second Life™
[16:39]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe what about opening Second Life™ inside a Word document
[16:39]	Jacek Antonelli: 	o_o
[16:39]	Charlette Proto: 	we could then use macro programming to do the chat spam
[16:39]	Jacek Antonelli: 	>_<
[16:40]	Aimee Trescothick: 	hell, I once wrote a ray tracer as an excel spreadsheet
[16:41]	Aimee Trescothick: 	the moral of that story is, not everything that can be done should be done
[16:41]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hahaha
[16:41]	Morgaine Dinova: 	lol
[16:41]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hehehe
[16:41]	Charlette Proto: 	really hates the current taskbar and finds it sooo ugly besides being practically useless
[16:41]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe how true Aimee
[16:41]	Geneko Nemeth: 	We have a taskbar?
[16:42]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Aimee: did you get fired from the accountancy firm? ;-)
[16:42]	Dzonatas Sol: 	the bottom toolbar?
[16:42]	Aimee Trescothick: 	ROFL
[16:42]	Charlette Proto: 	well the weir thing with buttons at the bottom is called a taskbar in the UI options
[16:42]	Aimee Trescothick: 	they just said "make the figures look good"
[16:42]	Morgaine Dinova: 	lol
[16:42]	Charlette Proto: 	sry was it toolbar hehe even worse
[16:42]	Charlette Proto: 	what tools are there
[16:43]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Aimee: serves them right for being ambiguous :P
[16:43]	Aimee Trescothick: 	:P
[16:43]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hah!
[16:43]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Our 8.1 button bar at the bottom is dead wierd, have to say.
[16:44]	Charlette Proto: 	loves the Inventory icon best, reminiscent of noobs wearing boxes on the head
[16:44]	Charlette Proto: 	honestly it needs to be reworked really bad
[16:44]	McCabe Maxsted: 	heh, I like how you put that
[16:45]	McCabe Maxsted pictures the second life product packaging: "Now with 8.1 toolbar clicking action!" 	McCabe Maxsted pictures the second life product packaging: "Now with 8.1 toolbar clicking action!"
[16:45]	Morgaine Dinova: 	lol
[16:45]	Aimee Trescothick: 	8.1 surround, errr, buttons
[16:45]	Dzonatas Sol: 	8.1 smiley
[16:46]	McCabe Maxsted still kinda prefers vertical toolbars if we have to have some 	McCabe Maxsted still kinda prefers vertical toolbars if we have to have some
[16:46]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I'm gonna head out. Take care, everyone! See you next week