User Experience Interest Group/Transcripts/2009-12-17

== Topic ==
User Experience Interest Group Discussion for December 17, 2009.
Topic: Improving Immersion by Reducing UI Presence.
== Summary ==
We will not have meetings or December 24 or 31 due to the holidays. The January 7 meeting will be held on OSGrid. More details will be announced soon.
This week we discussed making the UI less intrusive and distracting, in order to improve the user's sense of immersion in the world.
== Transcript ==
[15:08]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hi Morgaine
[15:08]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I guess this means that OSgrid isn't this week
[15:09]	Jacek Antonelli: 	OSGrid will be January 7
[15:10]	Armin Weatherwax: 	hi Morgaine :)
[15:10]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hi Armin :-)
[15:10]	Morgaine Dinova: 	KK Jacek
[15:11]	Armin Weatherwax: 	yeah .. better january than christmas eve
[15:11]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah, next week is Christmas Eve, and then after that is New Year's Eve
[15:11]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Bad timing
[15:11]	Armin Weatherwax: 	lol
[15:12]	Armin Weatherwax: 	sadly January i will be concentrating on clinical psychology to finally get my "Diplom"
[15:13]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Ah, will you be able to make it on Jan 7, Armin?
[15:13]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Better not, let Armin study :-)
[15:14]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Or sleep, hehe
[15:14]	Morgaine Dinova: 	lol, aye
[15:14]	Armin Weatherwax: 	7th sounds ok, but then not before 29th
[15:14]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay
[15:15]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hey Thickbrick :)
[15:15]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	hello
[15:16]	Armin Weatherwax: 	lol ... my modus of working is doing nothing or 16 hrs a day :-/
[15:16]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, I think this is everyone we will probably get today. McCabe is busy with finals, so good luck to him on that
[15:16]	Armin Weatherwax: 	hi Thickbrick
[15:16]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hiya Thick :-)
[15:16]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Let's begin. Today we're talking about reducing the UI to improve immersion.
[15:16]	Armin Weatherwax: 	yeah good luck to him !
[15:17]	Jacek Antonelli: 	In other words, making the UI less "in your face" and distracting, and blocking the view of the world less
[15:18]	Armin Weatherwax: 	like that chat window now takes 3/4 of my view?
[15:18]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehe, exactly
[15:18]	Charlette Proto: 	one angle on that is the separate rendering window or monitor
[15:19]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, but we've talked a lot about separate windows before, so let's focus on other ways this week
[15:19]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Worth mentioning that the "Zbrush approach" that we've discussed many times (ie. no UI obscuring the scene, because every element of UI is draggable to the frame, so you customize your own frame to hold those things you want "open" and no floaters needed --- the 3D view resizes between the frames so nothing is lost).
[15:19]	Charlette Proto: 	someone in AWGroupies made a chat window based on a proxy sniffer for text
[15:20]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	you mean Dzonatas' patch? it's much more than that
[15:20]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yes, that's a good way Morgaine. Having the UI around the edges of the window would make it so less UI (or no UI) is obscuring the view
[15:20]	Morgaine Dinova: 	My line seems to be missing a verb, but you get the idea.
[15:20]	Charlette Proto: 	I like that paradigm Morgaine
[15:20]	Armin Weatherwax: 	dzonatas client is a rewrite in c#
[15:20]	Morgaine Dinova: 	UI rewrite only.
[15:20]	sabri Charisma: 	bellissimo
[15:20]	IM: sabri's Google Translator: beautiful 	IM: sabri's Google Translator: beautiful
[15:20]	Thickbrick Sleaford agrees that that looks more reasonable than the GIMP approach	Thickbrick Sleaford agrees that that looks more reasonable than the GIMP approach
[15:21]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Could you summarize the GIMP approach for people who aren't familiar with that?
[15:21]	Charlette Proto: 	I think you right Armin, not really part of Second Life™ viewer, but in a way a compimentary tool
[15:21]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	(GIMP = multiple windows...)
[15:22]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Before I forget, Jacek, today's OSS meeting that just finished provides a nice topic for a future UXIG --- 3D display! (Both stereoscopic, Johnny Lee approach, and others)
[15:22]	Jacek Antonelli: 	(Cool idea Morg, I'll add it to the list)
[15:22]	Morgaine Dinova: 	:-)
[15:22]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehe, yes. In GIMP, there are many separate windows that you can position anywhere.
[15:22]	Charlette Proto: 	yeah GIMP has separate windows for tools , but Photoshop does it better not having the main menu repeat in evey document window like GIMP does
[15:23]	Charlette Proto: 	stereo is problematic - user fatigue
[15:23]	Jacek Antonelli: 	We're not talking about 3D / stereo displays this week :P
[15:23]	Morgaine Dinova: 	:-)
[15:24]	Armin Weatherwax: 	esp crossed eye 3d ... we are not talking about ...
[15:24]	Charlette Proto: 	shutter goggles are one problem, but LCDs are just crap res and heavy, besides cutting you out from the world you are actually in eg typing
[15:24]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Another way to reduce the UI presence, which I'm sure we have discussed before, is having everything in hidable "docks" or "drawers" on the sides of the windows, and they would hide when not in use.
[15:25]	Jacek Antonelli: 	But, that only reduces the UI when you're not using it... which isn't the problem so much.
[15:25]	Charlette Proto: 	yup - 3D is lame in my experience - fishtank is best
[15:25]	Morgaine Dinova: 	You don't have to use GIMP's per-window menus though, you could use just the main window's menus, so it's a bit unfair to criticize it for providing additional menus. Lots of other criticisms though :P
[15:25]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Charlette, we're not talking about that this week.
[15:25]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	BTW, GIMP 2.6 doesn't have the menu in the child windows anymore (at least on linux)
[15:26]	Charlette Proto: 	yup GIMP is a mess at large, but works well on two monitors
[15:26]	Armin Weatherwax: 	would it be possible with what we have right now to have seperate windows?
[15:26]	Charlette Proto: 	on windows it still does on 2.6.7
[15:26]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Thick: sure it does.
[15:26]	Jacek Antonelli: 	It would be difficult right now to have separate windows
[15:26]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	it kind of make sense when you have one app per desktop, though.
[15:26]	Jacek Antonelli: 	A lot of the viewer code would need to be restructured
[15:26]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I actually had GIMP 2.6.7 open, and see it there.
[15:27]	Armin Weatherwax: 	difficult or (almost) impossible?
[15:27]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Morgaine: It must depend on your window manager then, because I'm looking at 2.6.7 right now and only the main GIMP window has the menus
[15:28]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek: you have to rightclick the pane to get the menus to pop up
[15:29]	Armin Weatherwax: 	could we have seperate windows (ab)using the new media api?
[15:29]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I'm not sure what you mean, Morg, but anyway this is off topic
[15:29]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Armin: in theory, sure. But in practice there's no adequate API to the viewer yet
[15:29]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	Armin: you mean could seperate windows use it, or could it be done that way?
[15:30]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I'm not intimately familiar with the plugin API, but I don't think it's designed for that sort of thing (yet)
[15:30]	Morgaine Dinova nods 	Morgaine Dinova nods
[15:30]	Charlette Proto: 	a good toolbar is another way to avoid clutter onscreen
[15:30]	Armin Weatherwax: 	could it be done that way
[15:30]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	not in it's current way - maybe when it's exapanded in the future
[15:31]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Charlette: What would you do with the toolbar to avoid clutter?
[15:31]	Armin Weatherwax: 	hm. pitty that is
[15:31]	Charlette Proto: 	a toolbar eg doube line of chat with tabs etc
[15:32]	Charlette Proto: 	I'm assuming we aren't talking about building tasks
[15:32]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Right, not building tasks. Mostly exploring and socializing. Activities where you want to be immersed.
[15:32]	Morgaine Dinova: 	It comes back to the "Zbrush approach" --- a "good toolbar" is one that you can customize with the controls you want.
[15:33]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Funnily enough, I bet a Zbrush-type frame would be much simpler than the current UI setup, where everything is located explictly.
[15:33]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	does "Zbrush approach" means dockable windows?
[15:34]	Charlette Proto: 	precisely Morgaine, the chat/IM would be different than Z-Bruch tools but not impossible
[15:34]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Thick: kinda ... but the general idea is that SMALL elements should be draggable from large panels to your frame, then the large panels closed.
[15:34]	Jacek Antonelli: 	So chat/IM would be integrated into the toolbar instead of being a separate window?
[15:35]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Eg. I'd drag my kittie and my Xmas outfit folders from my inventory to my frame.
[15:36]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Oh, talking of Xmas, let's get into the spirit :P
[15:36]	Jacek Antonelli: 	What are some of the things that block your view / break immersion for you? Chat/IM is a big one for me. What else?
[15:36]	Charlette Proto: 	chat and IM could be a couple of lines above the text entry in the bottom toolbar - I never use that but...
[15:37]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Grrr, hate anim conflicts
[15:38]	Charlette Proto: 	along side of it one would have a few tabs to select what is dispalyed and to show and active at the time
[15:38]	Charlette Proto: 	inventory opening up when you get stuff
[15:38]	Charlette Proto: 	I switch that off, but most people don't
[15:39]	Charlette Proto: 	fast timers console - hehe
[15:39]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Well most of the time I'd be happy with a 3-4 line chat history border, so I'd add that to my top or bottom frame.
[15:39]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, that's an interesting one. How could the UI deal with incoming inventory without opening up the inventory window?
[15:39]	Charlette Proto: 	and debug log - joking
[15:40]	Charlette Proto: 	most of the time one could just have a single line inventory crolling to the new thing
[15:40]	Charlette Proto: 	this way one could use it - eg play gesture you get
[15:41]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek: well first of all, part of the inventory problem is that it's monolithic. If just desired sections of it at a time could be popped up, or attached to the frame, life would be much less painful
[15:41]	Morgaine Dinova: 	As I said with my two main outfit folders, all I need are the two folder names.
[15:42]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I think the purpose of it opening up the inventory is to allow you to preview/use it, and to move it into the folder you want. So maybe there could be a special notice that allows those things (open/use/preview, and move to a folder)
[15:42]	Charlette Proto: 	do you see what I meant - a single item inv which expands up or drops down when you want it - could always show the last thing used
[15:42]	Morgaine Dinova: 	"Recent items" could do with a history slider :-)
[15:42]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	yes please!
[15:43]	Charlette Proto: 	haha history
[15:43]	Jacek Antonelli: 	How would the history slider work? Previous/Next sessions? Or set a date range?
[15:43]	Charlette Proto: 	I'd like to have ;ast used/worn attribute in the inv
[15:43]	Charlette Proto: 	last*
[15:43]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek: first question has to be whether it's possible at all. Is there a record of when things were received?
[15:44]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	I find myself going to the filter setting and changing the time period on Recent Items a lot, so jsut a slider to set that would be great
[15:44]	Charlette Proto: 	last time that is - able to sort like the accuried date now
[15:44]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yes, all the items have an "Acquired" date.
[15:44]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Super!
[15:44]	Jacek Antonelli: 	And there are already filter controls for date range. Although currently there's no way to set the end date
[15:45]	Charlette Proto: 	acquired date is less practical (for me) than last used
[15:45]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I'd want two dates then, to limit the span matched.
[15:46]	Morgaine Dinova: 	So travelling back through acquisition history would move both sliders back together
[15:46]	Charlette Proto: 	all this would make a wide (deep) toolbar, but that could make a neat display
[15:46]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay. And we could take some inspiration (with a grain of salt) from web sites that have histories, like banking sites or the SL transaction log. See if any of them handle the UI especially well.
[15:46]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Haha, that's optimistic :DDDDDD
[15:47]	Jacek Antonelli: 	;)
[15:48]	Jacek Antonelli: 	What else gets in your way in the UI?
[15:48]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Funny, I wonder why "Recent items" has never got any love.
[15:48]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Besides chat and inventory?
[15:48]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hmmm
[15:48]	Morgaine Dinova: 	map
[15:48]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Full map or minimap?
[15:49]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Not the minimap, that's inevitable
[15:49]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Mkay
[15:49]	Charlette Proto: 	edit being in a wrong place
[15:49]	Charlette Proto: 	weird but, I'd rather it snapped to the side (left or right)
[15:50]	Charlette Proto: 	maybe all floaters should snap to sides
[15:50]	Armin Weatherwax: 	automatic camera movement gets in my way every time I build or try to adjust attachments ... it keeps autofocussing on exactly where I do *not* want to look at
[15:50]	Charlette Proto: 	also animation windows - they are a mess when you open them
[15:50]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Edit controls would be perfect for the "Zbrush approach". Program a preset to throw the edit panel parts into one of the 4 frame edges, unless you've customized it before.
[15:51]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Armin: yeah,, camera needs love. Or, it just needs flaming Reset Linden to stop adding free resets and movements.
[15:51]	Charlette Proto: 	yup, corners would be good, but what about HUDs
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Oh, I hate appearance camera movement. And they seem especially broken in OpenSim for some reason.
[15:52]	Charlette Proto: 	yup, whay can't one turn it off
[15:52]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	I think corners could mean it's outside the "viewscreen" area
[15:52]	Charlette Proto: 	looking at my back is hardly of any help
[15:52]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I bring up unsolicited camera movement every few months at Nyx's OH. Last one was yesterday :-)))))
[15:52]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	(so not blocking huds)
[15:53]	Jacek Antonelli: 	You can turn off some of the camera movements in Input & Camera preferences. But it doesn't turn them all off.
[15:53]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	some of it is server side
[15:53]	Charlette Proto: 	yup, the remaining ones are bad enough
[15:54]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yeah. They added those two checkboxes after our "Leave My Camera Alone!" campaign in the SL forums, Jacek. Some years ago. And still it moves, grrrrr.
[15:54]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	lol
[15:54]	Armin Weatherwax: 	i spend 2/3 of the time building with readjusting the cam ... thats jut waste of time
[15:54]	Jacek Antonelli: 	It still moves the camera back and forth to try to fit your avatar on the screen when you move the window.
[15:54]	Armin Weatherwax: 	*just
[15:55]	Morgaine Dinova: 	It's Reset Linden. He creeps into LL HQ at night and sprays resets and free movements all over the code.
[15:55]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe
[15:55]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Actually, the whole Appearance adjustment concept is a real immersion breaker. Why do you have to stop what you're doing, stand up, and turn around, just to edit your appearance?
[15:55]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek++
[15:55]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Why not adjust it where you are, in the pose you're in?
[15:55]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek += 1000000000
[15:55]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehehe
[15:56]	Charlette Proto: 	precisely Jacek, posing is superfluous too
[15:56]	Armin Weatherwax: 	and why isnt there a *fix camera HERE* button?
[15:56]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I understand that a predefined pose is useful, but we have predefined poses available!
[15:56]	Jacek Antonelli: 	McCabe was talking about removing the preview panels in the Appearance window too, because they are computationally expensive. We may have to do a big overhaul of the appearance process soon.
[15:56]	Charlette Proto: 	editing attachments could use a pose but not changing shape or editing system clothes
[15:57]	Charlette Proto: 	but editing appearance is usually done alone so the lag clientsude is very rare - I never noticed it
[15:57]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Well, there could be one preview view in the appearance window, to show your avatar in an empty space (or a closet... or a cosmetic surgeon's office), so you could use that to judge, as well as your current pose.
[15:58]	Charlette Proto: 	make it an option maybe, I use previews more than the lame descriptions we have
[15:58]	Jacek Antonelli: 	There could be a similar window for adjusting attachments. Make a new view to see your avatar, so you can adjust things easily without getting up.
[15:58]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Re camera woes, it stems from lack of identified camera modes. (Some MMOs have 5 or 6 camera modes, you flick between them explicitly). SL has only two, normal and mouselook, and the mouselook has a ton of crap baggage associated with it.
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah, camera needs an overhaul too.
[15:59]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Eg. we should have a camera mode where the view doesn't change *AT ALL* --- you should be able to run around in the scene shown.
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli takes it out behind the shed and shoots it. 	Jacek Antonelli takes it out behind the shed and shoots it.
[15:59]	Morgaine Dinova: 	lol
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Put it out of its misery. And end our misery too, hehe
[16:00]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	I think appearance edit window could use a seperate "reset" button for each slider.
[16:00]	Charlette Proto: 	the mouse cam (ctrl, alt) is great, but mouselook eg steering a vehicle sucks
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli: 	True, Thickbrick
[16:00]	Charlette Proto: 	still 100 times better than Blue Mars
[16:01]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Eg. in EQ, you had 1st person, 3rd person, auto follow, follow at arbitrary vector offset, and others.
[16:01]	Charlette Proto: 	that is just crap
[16:01]	Armin Weatherwax: 	ah... slightly on topic ... just to mention it: save and load joystick settings would be great
[16:01]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	well, different follow modes can be done with scripts, right?
[16:01]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Mouselook doesn't even merit taking behind the shed. Nothing less than nuking from orbit suffices.
[16:02]	Jacek Antonelli: 	heh
[16:02]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Thinkbrick: don't know. How?
[16:02]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	there's different follow cam scripts that can be used in attachments
[16:02]	Charlette Proto: 	I'd like the shift (3rd metakey) to look around from the av's head position
[16:02]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah, LSL scripts give better control over camera behavior than the actual UI. Heh.
[16:02]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	like tiny-cam
[16:02]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Darn, I just can't type Thickbrick, sorry, typo to "Think" almost every time :-(
[16:03]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	heh
[16:03]	Charlette Proto: 	and move the head at the same time
[16:04]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Does anyone have a free HUD that uses camera scripting?
[16:04]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	I always try to orbit the camera with the middle mouse button after I've been using Blender
[16:04]	Charlette Proto: 	you should try typing at 11am without having slept Morgaine
[16:04]	Morgaine Dinova: 	lol
[16:04]	Charlette Proto: 	haha Thick - Maya has the same cam UI
[16:04]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Best thing about SL is that after an all-nighter, you don't look like something the cat dragged in.
[16:04]	Charlette Proto: 	I try to cam on the desktop too
[16:05]	Morgaine Dinova accepted your inventory offer. 	Morgaine Dinova accepted your inventory offer.
[16:05]	Armin Weatherwax: 	I always try to orbit in youtube after a SL session ...
[16:05]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Oooh, thanks Jacek!
[16:05]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	heh
[16:05]	Charlette Proto: 	yeah, maybe a windlight fog shader would help
[16:05]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah, why can't I spin the cam around when watching a video??
[16:06]	Jacek Antonelli would not look up the actresses skirts, promise! >_> 	Jacek Antonelli would not look up the actresses skirts, promise! >_>
[16:06]	Charlette Proto: 	camera got stuck duh
[16:06]	Charlette Proto: 	haha jacek
[16:06]	Armin Weatherwax: 	i don't promise for the actor <_<
[16:07]	Jacek Antonelli: 	haha
[16:07]	Charlette Proto: 	actually DVD with camera angles like Second Life™ would make famillies fight and cause divorces - I bet
[16:07]	Jacek Antonelli: 	lol
[16:07]	Charlette Proto: 	one day
[16:08]	Charlette Proto: 	kind of feasible when you shoot fisheye and process the viewport on play
[16:08]	Morgaine Dinova: 	The issue of alleged privacy invasion using camera controls is material for 100 PhD theses in psychiatry. Really bizarre, but I guess YMMV.
[16:08]	Charlette Proto: 	limited, but 3 cams recorded would give a lot of scope
[16:09]	Charlette Proto: 	yup Morg
[16:09]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, I think let's wrap it up for this week. Any final UI intrusion you want to mention?
[16:09]	Armin Weatherwax: 	well ... in sl there is nothing to see if not so desired
[16:10]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	hover tips!
[16:10]	Charlette Proto: 	another thing to consider for toolbar may be active speakers list, but that kind of behaves borked for some 6 months now so it isn't much use any more
[16:10]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	I HATE hover tips that obscure what I was trying to look at
[16:10]	Armin Weatherwax: 	...but hover tips of course
[16:10]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Thanks Thickbrick! (typed carefully :P)
[16:10]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	lol
[16:10]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hovertips indeed!
[16:10]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hola Azwaldo
[16:10]	Azwaldo Villota: 	Hola!
[16:10]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	it's kind of tricky, because when hovertips are done right, they are wonderful
[16:11]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Ah hey Azwaldo, I'm afraid you've arrived just as we were ending
[16:11]	Charlette Proto: 	set tooltip delay in debug to something like 100 seconds
[16:11]	Azwaldo Villota: 	right
[16:11]	Azwaldo Villota: 	ending
[16:11]	Armin Weatherwax: 	hi Azwaldo :)
[16:11]	Azwaldo Villota: 	hello Armin, everybody
[16:11]	Charlette Proto: 	what a late turn-up
[16:12]	Azwaldo Villota: 	I thought I might still find a few here; want to invite y'all to the XMPP Integration discussion on Sat
[16:12]	Armin Weatherwax: 	think the tooltips are specially designed to cover what you actually want to see - not only in SL
[16:12]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Cool, thanks Azwaldo
[16:12]	Azwaldo Villota: 	Google Wave meets SL
[16:13]	Morgaine Dinova: 	That's interesting, Az
[16:13]	Azwaldo Villota: 	i have a notecard with info, if anyone is interested
[16:13]	Charlette Proto: 	ah, I've started a wave on that theme Azwaldo, but not getting much interest
[16:13]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yes please
[16:14]	Azwaldo Villota: 	the discussion is a 11AM SLT, with a bot demo at 10AM SLT
[16:14]	Charlette Proto: 	pass it to me
[16:14]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, let's call it done for this week. As a reminder, there is no meeting next week or the week after that, due to the holidays. Then on January 7, we will be having our meeting in OSGrid instead. I will post more details on the mailing list and send out a group notice, but you could make an account on osgrid.org and start dressing your avatar now, if you want. :D
[16:14]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	ha
[16:15]	Charlette Proto: 	OK Jacek
[16:15]	Armin Weatherwax: 	\0/
[16:15]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Tooltips need a decent delay to avoid unwanted triggering, and they need a mode switch to toggle them from next to control to the frame and back.
[16:16]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Erk, unintelligible
[16:16]	Charlette Proto: 	my 'idea' on Google wave 4D is more focused on having a 3D UI but avies are also part of it
[16:16]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Tooltips should pop up on the frame if you want, instead of near the object they describe --- that can be used when they overlap something unwanted.
[16:17]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Righto Jacek
[16:17]	Armin Weatherwax: 	when's McCabe done with his finals? (approx)
[16:17]	Charlette Proto: 	good point Morgaine - an option to show tooltips in the statusbar
[16:18]	Jacek Antonelli: 	McCabe will be done after this week, I think
[16:18]	Azwaldo Villota: 	Morgaine, Charlette; if you know others who might be interested in discussion XMPP please pass the NC along
[16:18]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Also on tooltips, in the mode where they display on the frame, this should be a pasteable box, so you can pick up the info into clipboard.
[16:18]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Azwaldo: aren't you a member of AW Groupies? A good fraction of them would be interested!
[16:19]	Charlette Proto: 	true, everything in UI should be copy enabled text
[16:19]	Armin Weatherwax: 	apropos XMPP ... I think it should be integrated into the viewer ...
[16:19]	Morgaine Dinova: 	It's one of the things I hate about X11, that so much of it can't be copied to clipboard.
[16:20]	Charlette Proto: 	I think Wave would be a good way to support chat and IMs in Second Life™
[16:20]	Azwaldo Villota: 	No, I am not. I have announced the discussion in Adv Scripters group a couple of times...will look up some AWG members and make invitations, too.
[16:20]	Charlette Proto: 	x11 is like 20 century Morgaine
[16:20]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Azwaldo ... join us! We only bite on Sundays :P
[16:20]	Azwaldo Villota: 	ty, Morgaine
[16:21]	Charlette Proto: 	Scripters aren't really a great forum for Wave innovation
[16:22]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	who has invite powers in AW Groupies besides Sai?
[16:22]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Many in Groupies have tried Wave. I don't know of anyone who actually like it though. I love the *model*, hate the browser implementation. Loathe it.
[16:22]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Oh, I though it was an open group
[16:22]	Azwaldo Villota: 	did not even think of the AWG ; there is a Google Wave with quite a few participants who are going to be at the event
[16:22]	Morgaine Dinova: 	thought*
[16:23]	Charlette Proto: 	similar feeling Morgaine, but the backbone seems great
[16:23]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	oh "Contact Zha Ewry, Saijanai Kuhn or Tree Kyomoon for an invite"
[16:23]	Morgaine Dinova: 	A standalone implementation would be very interesting
[16:24]	Charlette Proto: 	I'm sure one could use even SL, there are many HTML front ends to it already
[16:25]	Azwaldo Villota: 	there is a lot of skepticism about potential in integrating, but i figure it is worth talking about...
[16:25]	Azwaldo Villota copies, pastes names 	Azwaldo Villota copies, pastes names
[16:25]	Azwaldo Villota: 	ty, ThickAsABrick
[16:25]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I really don't want to bloat the viewer though. I don't think people truly realize where it's heading ... every additional increment adds bug probability, and it's combinatorial
[16:26]	Charlette Proto: 	but I mean instead of the current gen comms Morgaine
[16:26]	Charlette Proto: 	the comms we have are so bad
[16:26]	Azwaldo Villota: 	and I must go, see y'all in 2010...OSGrid
[16:26]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yes, take care all! Happy holidays and bright new year to you all :)
[16:26]	Morgaine Dinova: 	See you Az, Merry Xmas and Happy New Year :-)
[16:26]	Charlette Proto: 	byeee jacek
[16:26]	Charlette Proto: 	same to you
[16:26]	Armin Weatherwax: 	yay see you there :)
[16:26]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	see you people, I'm off too
[16:26]	Jacek Antonelli: 	And see you on OSGrid :D