Mesh/Archive/2011-08-15

==Agenda==
# Charlar Linden "I do not expect resource weights calculations to change". I heard from at least 3 Linden over the past 2 weeks that they started the PE limits high because its easier to lower them down later... and obviously now they are not being lowered at all I and MANY others are not satisfied at all. With the current costs and no hope for them coming down sculpties seems vastly superior to anything non AV related... So I guess my question is why did you guys even make mesh if it is inferior to the current stuff in SL? (Moo Spyker)
# Status on maptilegenerator, is the result i see in aditi the final way you want to render meshobjects on maps? (the bunny)
# Which viewer should we test? Which is the latest maintained viewer? Is it mesh-development or snowstorm_viewer-development or Second Life Beta Viewer? [Yuzuru Jewell]
# WE WANT NYX BEARS [Dahlia Trimble]
# I am now on Viewer 3 and, as with the last mesh viewer, there is no mesh upload in mesh enable areas, nor am i able to IM, tp without crashing, or view profiles. This is preventing me from moving forward with mesh. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/CTS-768 I don't know how many more are in this situation, but it is major for those of us experiencing it. [Eleanora Newell]
# When you say that you can change the joint position, does that mean you can scale the bone? I've tried translating a bone to a different position and that didn't seem to work. [Ashasekayi Ra]
# What is the purpose of the SLM file generated upon upload? After having problems, I found I needed to delete this manually, or else the problems got worse. (Tiberious)
# OS Lib update (Wplfpup Lowenhar / Jusden Jonstone)
# Any chance of CTS-631 being considered after release? It can solve the big mesh = big PE problem.
# Where is the specification for how rigging works differently in collada 1.4.0 vs 1.4.1? I'm fixing blender 2.5 to work with SL, but am not sure whether the rotation issues are in blender, SL, or both (Tapple Gao)
# Explain again the joint offsets/bone lengths, or lack thereof, or how you cant move or rotate bones in a rig...? you can't make quads or anything unless they are in human T-position? you can't make creatures with shortened legs or lengthened arms?
# Any chance we will be able to use the new physics setup for objects made with prims/sculpties, without being "punished" by our objects suddenly being treated as if they was mesh objects? [Motor Loon]
==Meeting Notes==
==Attendees List==
*Aki Shichiroji (aki.shichiroji)
*Angell Airy (angell.airy)
*Ash DeAllura Weststar (ash.qin)
*Asha (ashasekayi.ra)
*bigjr Slade (bigjr.slade)
*Bloodsong Termagant (bloodsong.termagant)
*Cale Flanagan (cale.flanagan)
*Charlie (charlar.linden)
*dahlia1337 resident (dahlia.trimble)
*Daniele Eberhardt (daniele.eberhardt)
*draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam)
*Drongle McMahon (drongle.mcmahon)
*Eleanora Newell (eleanora.newell)
*Victoria LaTour (elvydia.zenoria)
*Elvydia Zenoria (elvydia.zenoria)
*The Citizen (eric.dielli)
*Flight Band (flight.band)
*Graham Dartmouth (graham.dartmouth)
*Jusden Jonstone (jusden.jonstone)
*Kristivon Kolache (kristivon.kolache)
*Lee Ponzu (lee.ponzu)
*Liisa Runo (liisa.runo)
*lonetorus Habilis (lonetorus.habilis)
*Maxwell Graf (maxwell.graf)
*MENTE Arrowmint (mente.arrowmint)
*MeshViewerTesting (wilhiammeshtest) (meshviewertesting.(wilhiammeshtest))
*Mike Chase (mike.chase)
*王みみか (mimika.oh)
*Motor Loon (motor.loon)
*Nal (nalates.urriah)
*Nyx Linden (nyx.linden)
*oobscure (opensource.obscure)
*Prep Linden (prep.linden)
*Pygar Bu (pygar.bu)
*Ranya Palmer (ranya.palmer)
*davep (runitai.linden)
*Koli Contepomi (sahkolihaa.contepomi)
*Skygirl Kline (skygirl.kline)
*Spritely Pixel (spritely.pixel)
*summse Sands (summse.sands)
*Tapple Gao (tapple.gao)
*Tiberious Neruda (tiberious.neruda)
*Twiz Raymaker (twiz.raymaker)
*Vivienne Daguerre (vivienne.daguerre)
*Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar)
*Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)
==Transcript for Monday August 15, 2011==
[12:03]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) 	hey Prep and Nyx
[12:03]	lonetorus Habilis 	NYX, I HAS RETURNED; WHERE IS THINE BEAR??!?!
[12:03]	Ranya Palmer 	hi guys
[12:03]	MeshViewerTesting (wilhiammeshtest) 	Charlar arriving in style :)
[12:04]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) 	hey Charlar
[12:04]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	that's right
[12:04]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Asha waves to everyone. :)
[12:04]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	ok
[12:04]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	ready to party!
[12:04]	Koli Contepomi (sahkolihaa.contepomi) 	Koli Contepomi waves to Charlie too.
[12:04]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	hello Ra!
[12:04]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	first item:
[12:04]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Heya Yuzuru :)
[12:04]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	1) Charlar Linden "I do not expect resource weights calculations to change". I heard from at least 3 Linden over the past 2 weeks that they started the PE limits high because its easier to lower them down later... and obviously now they are not being lowered at all I and MANY others are not satisfied at all. With the current costs and no hope for them coming down sculpties seems vastly superior to anything non AV related... So I guess my question is why did you guys even make mesh if it is inferior to the current stuff in SL? (Moo Spyker)
[12:05]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	I spoke with Moo
[12:05]	MENTE Arrowmint 	holas
[12:05]	Victoria LaTour (elvydia.zenoria) 	Bonjour tout le monde
[12:05]	Elvydia Zenoria 	Hello world
[12:05]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	Don't think he's here - speak up if you are Moo.
[12:05]	MeshViewerTesting (wilhiammeshtest) 	Moo is offline
[12:05]	MeshViewerTesting (wilhiammeshtest) 	tried contacting him
[12:06]	MeshViewerTesting (wilhiammeshtest) 	send him notice meeting is tarting
[12:06]	MeshViewerTesting (wilhiammeshtest) 	+s
[12:06]	oobscure (opensource.obscure) 	let's move on then ?
[12:06]	MeshViewerTesting (wilhiammeshtest) 	no answer
[12:06]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	Moo said that he's begining to understand how to work with PE on his very large items.
[12:06]	lonetorus Habilis 	so, what did you tell moo?
[12:06]	MeshViewerTesting (wilhiammeshtest) 	i think though Moo's question is relevant to anybody
[12:06]	Tiberious Neruda 	no... there's still discussion that can be had on this subject
[12:06]	lonetorus Habilis 	perhaps something of general interest?
[12:07]	Tiberious Neruda 	I mean, the PE weights are going to determine how well mesh is received
[12:07]	MeshViewerTesting (wilhiammeshtest) 	i think trouble is .. is PE values stay this way .. objects are endangering creators when resized
[12:07]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	We believe the current PE is valid, and creators just need time to work out LoD features.
[12:08]	MeshViewerTesting (wilhiammeshtest) 	specially when sold to unknown users
[12:08]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	I'm not sure how the weights can be better explained. I think people do NOT bother to learn how to use the SL LoD and physics models and are shocked to see high PE.
[12:08]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	PE is based on resource weights. We continue to watch what things are weighing.
[12:08]	Eleanora Newell 	i think it may be more accurate to say many don't understand how to work with the LoD and physics meshes
[12:08]	Tiberious Neruda 	well, I know some of the things I've made, with decent LoDs, and a pretty good physics shape, still are higher than they need to be
[12:09]	Drongle McMahon 	We need settable objectr LOD factor. That would overcome most PE problems.
[12:09]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	We'll make changes to improve them as we see more
[12:09]	Angell Airy 	it is not possible to add to the finder the option of ascent storm?
[12:09]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	The alternative workflow is modular for large builds.
[12:09]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Better models = lower PE
[12:09]	lonetorus Habilis 	runitai, did you ever write the best practice guide for content creation in sl?
[12:09]	davep (runitai.linden) 	no?
[12:09]	Ash DeAllura Weststar (ash.qin) 	I wouldn't want to get rid of the existing PE system, because that would mean meshes would cost the maximum possible always.
[12:09]	lonetorus Habilis 	why not?
[12:09]	Eleanora Newell 	it is easy to say better models, but hard for most to understand how to achieve that if you note the many group chat conversations
[12:10]	Tiberious Neruda 	I mean, I did do quite a bit of triangle reduction between levels...
[12:10]	davep (runitai.linden) 	I did at one point -- but not with respect to mesh
[12:10]	lonetorus Habilis 	mesh is useless, if ppl cant figure out how to use it the best (intended) way
[12:10]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	U r right Eleanore
[12:10]	MeshViewerTesting (wilhiammeshtest) 	my question is : CAN LL optimize PE values any further at all ?
[12:10]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	We know that there is a learning curve, especialy for people building very large models.
[12:10]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	I have confidence that you all will get good at it soon.
[12:10]	Tiberious Neruda 	...but I don't see how I can get any more aggressive without utterly destroying the shape
[12:11]	Graham Dartmouth 	curve? cliff for those starting out
[12:11]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Well, they can't teach people how to model efficiently. They will have to learn that on their own for their specific program.
[12:11]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	There are some persons who have already sold Mesh in the market place.
[12:11]	Cale Flanagan 	i think lod switching is not good, too fast for small ones and too slow for big ones
[12:11]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Once more tutorials are out, people will start to get the idea and learn.
[12:11]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Right
[12:11]	Jusden Jonstone 	great so lets all become MIT professors and teach graduate students computational geometry and physics without anything to go on but arbitrary and minimal guidelines
[12:12]	lonetorus Habilis 	wite a best practive guide for mesh creation ?
[12:12]	Vivienne Daguerre 	Asha, your new tutorials rock!
[12:12]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	hehe thanks
[12:12]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Jusden, that is unfair. I'm not an MIT grade and I'm not finding it that hard.
[12:12]	lonetorus Habilis 	it was discussed already at the begiunning of mesh project
[12:12]	lonetorus Habilis 	and now, a year later, nothing
[12:12]	Jusden Jonstone 	ok sorry university of iowa
[12:12]	Bloodsong Termagant 	so where are these rocking asha tutorials?
[12:13]	Bloodsong Termagant 	cuz i would like to see :)
[12:13]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	please do send out the tutorial links - but we're going to move to the next agenda item
[12:13]	lonetorus Habilis 	LL surely must have an opinion on what they think is best practice?
[12:13]	Twiz Raymaker 	rediscovery of certain ideas can lead to a more erginomical result, but it dont hurt to have a little help getting started.
[12:13]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	2) Status on maptilegenerator, is the result i see in aditi the final way you want to render meshobjects on maps? (the bunny)
[12:13]	davep (runitai.linden) 	it's not the final representation, we just haven't gotten around to making the map tile renderer mesh aware yet
[12:13]	Vivienne Daguerre 	http://www.youtube.com/user/ashasekayi
[12:14]	Cale Flanagan 	oki thanks
[12:14]	Bloodsong Termagant 	thanks, viv.
[12:14]	Ranya Palmer 	thanks
[12:14]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	next...
[12:14]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	3) Which viewer should we test? Which is the latest maintained viewer? Is it mesh-development or snowstorm_viewer-development or Second Life Beta Viewer? [Yuzuru Jewell]
[12:15]	davep (runitai.linden) 	we should probably add those tutorials to http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mesh/Tools
[12:15]	Maxwell Graf 	...HOLA!!...
[12:15]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	Beta if you want to use mesh features on Agni. latest mesh dev if you'd like the cutting edge of what dev is working on now.
[12:16]	Jusden Jonstone 	seriously viewers that essentially you have deprecated and dont want ppl to use should be taken off from being able to be downloaded
[12:16]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Heya Max :)
[12:16]	Nyx Linden 	beta being the new viewer beta :)
[12:16]	MeshViewerTesting (wilhiammeshtest) 	latest is compiled Aug 15th i think
[12:16]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	Jusden - we'll look and try to pull down any deprecated references.
[12:16]	Nyx Linden 	we've removed links to the obsolete project viewer, let us know if we have other links that should be removed
[12:16]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	I already added the tutorial to this page.
[12:16]	Jusden Jonstone 	very much appreciated
[12:17]	Angell Airy 	no posible temporary updates for evaluate mesh?
[12:17]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Beta is 3.0.0, isn't it?
[12:17]	davep (runitai.linden) 	Angell: no, use aditi to evaluate before paying to upload to agni
[12:17]	Nyx Linden 	yes, the viewer beta's version is 3.0.0
[12:17]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	ok, next one is pretty important. I'm not sure if we have the right people here to answer it...
[12:17]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	4) WE WANT NYX BEARS [Dahlia Trimble]
[12:17]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	lol
[12:17]	MeshViewerTesting (wilhiammeshtest) 	lol.. gotta be a mesh one then ;P '
[12:17]	Koli Contepomi (sahkolihaa.contepomi) 	Haha
[12:17]	Jusden Jonstone 	lets get mesh working first
[12:17]	Nyx Linden 	so do I!
[12:17]	Vivienne Daguerre 	I thought it was ponies...
[12:17]	Jusden Jonstone 	then work on bears can commence
[12:18]	Cale Flanagan 	and what with the ponies?
[12:18]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	It should be a unicorn..geez
[12:18]	lonetorus Habilis 	adult rated?
[12:18]	The Citizen (eric.dielli) 	Is the issue with Mesh not being easily selectable once attached to a avatar going to be addressed before Mesh goes out of beta?
[12:18]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Adult rated unicorn? O.o
[12:19]	MeshViewerTesting (wilhiammeshtest) 	i think we're disgressing somewhat here :|
[12:19]	Tiberious Neruda 	Citizen, so far I've seen that being MUCH better
[12:19]	Tiberious Neruda 	especially on rigged meshes
[12:19]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	It's better than before. But, it is still a PITA sometimes.
[12:19]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	next..
[12:20]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	5) I am now on Viewer 3 and, as with the last mesh viewer, there is no mesh upload in mesh enable areas, nor am i able to IM, tp without crashing, or view profiles. This is preventing me from moving forward with mesh. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/CTS-768 I don't know how many more are in this situation, but it is major for those of us experiencing it. [Eleanora Newell]
[12:20]	Spritely Pixel 	the hors eon the right is 25 prims (sculpty) the one on the left that has not rezzez for me has the equiv of 101 prims
[12:20]	Nyx Linden 	is anyone else seeing similar behavior?
[12:20]	MeshViewerTesting (wilhiammeshtest) 	no
[12:20]	Spritely Pixel 	oops reverse directions there
[12:20]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	No
[12:20]	Koli Contepomi (sahkolihaa.contepomi) 	Koli Contepomi isn't.
[12:21]	Eleanora Newell 	the new jira for the viewer 3 problem is https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/CTS-768
[12:21]	Motor Loon 	Viewer 3.0 works fine for me... but hehe, I miss my Firestorm when on it ofcourse °͜°
[12:21]	Eleanora Newell 	oh sorry, i listed that already
[12:21]	MeshViewerTesting (wilhiammeshtest) 	i'm afraid point 5 is a problem related to the machine in question
[12:21]	Tiberious Neruda 	well, with luck, there'll be a Phoenix with mesh in it :3
[12:21]	davep (runitai.linden) 	the one on the left is 4x the triangle count
[12:21]	MeshViewerTesting (wilhiammeshtest) 	i don't think it's viewer based
[12:21]	davep (runitai.linden) 	I don't feel bad about that
[12:22]	Flight Band 	All Go
[12:22]	The Citizen (eric.dielli) 	Isn't it true that Phoenix cannot fully support mesh other than just displaying. Since the tech for mesh upload is not freely distributable by LL?
[12:22]	Eleanora Newell 	if that is the case, what can be done? it is not possilbe to just go out and try a different computer
[12:22]	Motor Loon 	That sounds likely Eric
[12:22]	bigjr Slade 	Hello i havea problem with mesh viewer from 11.08 its freeze after 10 sec online time
[12:22]	MeshViewerTesting (wilhiammeshtest) 	i could assist you later, Eleanora .. all i can help you with
[12:22]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Kirstens' TPV already can upload mesh.
[12:23]	Flight Band 	All Go
[12:23]	bigjr Slade 	AMD HD radeon 6950 *g
[12:23]	davep (runitai.linden) 	Open source viewers can upload mesh, they just don't have the full convex decomposition toolset
[12:23]	Eleanora Newell 	thank you, forgive me, i also have no names, so don't know who offered to help
[12:23]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	alright. Moving on.,,
[12:23]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	6) When you say that you can change the joint position, does that mean you can scale the bone? I've tried translating a bone to a different position and that didn't seem to work. [Ashasekayi Ra]
[12:23]	Prep Linden 	Bone positions can be moved (so your rig doesn't need to conform to the default SL skeleton) and we currently do not allow for bone scaling
[12:23]	Ranya Palmer 	so for right now we have to use v2 or v3 ot upload mesh when it goes live?
[12:24]	Tiberious Neruda 	Umm... define scaling, Prep
[12:24]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Alrighty, I'll play with it some more.
[12:24]	Nyx Linden 	scaling = changing the length of the bone
[12:24]	Tiberious Neruda 	...I know that when I made my shape a female one, my rigged mesh and offsets seemed just fine
[12:24]	Prep Linden 	If you're having problems u/l one - check the log as it usually contains some error messages about what went wrong.
[12:24]	Bloodsong Termagant 	okay, doesnt moving the two joints of the bone apart end up with a bigger bone? (oh stop snickering)
[12:24]	Nyx Linden 	you can currently change the position, but not the scale or rotation of the bones.
[12:25]	Tiberious Neruda 	and it looked like it should
[12:25]	Jusden Jonstone 	lets just say i tested like umpteen different LL viewers today in light of many reportsfor those working to complete the stub decomp library to make it complete are there any meshy lindens who would find the time to review code generated by OS developers for reviewing code etc?
[12:25]	Eleanora Newell 	graham, could you im me please?
[12:25]	lonetorus Habilis 	does av apperance "height" affect it?
[12:25]	Graham Dartmouth 	sure
[12:25]	Nyx Linden 	Jusden - that's on my plate, but I've been a bit overloaded lately
[12:25]	Bloodsong Termagant 	wait, so can we make micros or not? cuz i was told we could.
[12:25]	Tiberious Neruda 	I just took the Ruth shape and wore it straight like that
[12:25]	Jusden Jonstone 	kk ty Nyx
[12:26]	Prep Linden 	bloodsong: you can make tinies
[12:26]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	next...
[12:26]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	7) What is the purpose of the SLM file generated upon upload? After having problems, I found I needed to delete this manually, or else the problems got worse. (Tiberious)
[12:26]	davep (runitai.linden) 	the SLM file is supposed to cache the last thing you uploaded to make it easier to repeat your last upload
[12:26]	MeshViewerTesting (wilhiammeshtest) 	not sure .. but i think 7 might be a bug
[12:27]	davep (runitai.linden) 	if you get your model into a state where it's broken, click the "reset" button to discard the .slm and reload from the .dae
[12:27]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	DAve, the last object or last settings for upload?
[12:27]	Twiz Raymaker 	what about adding additional limbs? say someone wanted to make a taur av or goro from mortal combat?
[12:27]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	nvm
[12:27]	Tiberious Neruda 	here's what I'd experienced: when attempting to upload a rigged mesh with offets, after needing to offset the pelvis a bit, I tried uploading again
[12:27]	Prep Linden 	twiz: you can't add any new bones yet.
[12:28]	Tiberious Neruda 	in the preview, none of the offsetting appeared to work
[12:28]	davep (runitai.linden) 	Nal: the result of the last upload from the selected dae
[12:28]	bigjr Slade 	If blender 2.59 now work with rig for SL ??????
[12:28]	davep (runitai.linden) 	the idea is you can tweak your settings on aditi and be sure that what you're uploading to agni is exactly what you uploaded to aditi without touching the settings
[12:28]	Prep Linden 	tiberius: yeah we really should add the ground plane so you can see the effect of the pelvis offset.
[12:29]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	ok, this is the last item we have currently.
[12:29]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	8) OS Lib update (Wplfpup Lowenhar / Jusden Jonstone)
[12:29]	Tapple Gao 	blender 2.59 should work with rigged meshes that have no joint offsets
[12:29]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Dave: Thx, that makes sense now.
[12:29]	Prep Linden 	bigjr: I just fixed up the parser so it *should*.
[12:29]	Nyx Linden 	I have code reviews to do for this! I've just been overloaded recently >.>
[12:29]	Maxwell Graf 	3ds max riggin doesnt, currently.
[12:30]	Prep Linden 	bigjr: but there is an issue where blender adds some rotations,
[12:30]	Prep Linden 	where the vertex groups are 90 degrees off.
[12:30]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) 	We should have a lib capable of at lease uploading a static modle by later today Jusden is pushing the code to online now so i can pull it to the my repos for mroe testing
[12:30]	Tapple Gao 	oh? there have been viewer-side changes with how rigging is imported? I've been making blender-side changes to make it export like 2.49
[12:30]	Drongle McMahon 	There's a MeshImportUseSLM debug setting if you want to turn slm off.
[12:30]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Ut oh
[12:31]	Tapple Gao 	what jira
[12:31]	bigjr Slade 	if you work with the blender groupe to fix the problem ?
[12:31]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Yeah. the Blender code has changed not to put in the weird rotations.
[12:31]	Kristivon Kolache 	another copybot problem just came up :( bye
[12:31]	Nyx Linden 	wolfpup - let me know when the code is updated for review
[12:31]	Prep Linden 	tapple: the joint offsets should now work.
[12:32]	Prep Linden 	when exported from Blender 2.59
[12:32]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) 	Primstar as part of blender will be for doing both sculpties and mesh
[12:32]	Tapple Gao 	what jira
[12:32]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	OK, we don't have any more adenda items. It's difficult to have general conversation when there are soo many attendees.
[12:32]	Tapple Gao 	ok
[12:32]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) 	will do Nyx ill send you an email
[12:32]	Nyx Linden 	thanks!
[12:32]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	I'd like to make use of this time so if you have a question, please drop it here and we'll handle it: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group
[12:33]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Charlar: any news or status reports?
[12:33]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	I'll take this time to thank you all for working with us and having such an interest.
[12:33]	Vivienne Daguerre 	great presentation at SLCC! I watched it on UStream.
[12:33]	Prep Linden 	asha: have you tried to bring in a rig from blender 2.59 - because my last test still had groups rotated by 90deg.
[12:33]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	oh, yeah, thanks Viv
[12:33]	Motor Loon 	no spoilers... havent watched it yet ,-)
[12:33]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) 	Nyx as soon as i get the code im going to build it localy and then build mesh-development with it so i can test is on aditi
[12:33]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	I don't move my hands enough, I think
[12:33]	Cale Flanagan 	charlar, i already pointed kelly to that, the scriptinh transscript archive (which niot exist) points to the mesh archive
[12:33]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	Nal - sure
[12:34]	Vivienne Daguerre 	I think I'll build you a special door :D
[12:34]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Hmmm.... I do believe that I did Prep. But, I can check again.
[12:34]	Ranya Palmer 	when can we expect mesh to do a full roll out?
[12:34]	davep (runitai.linden) 	if you missed the presentation, I just want to say again how much we appreciate you guys taking the time to test mesh and give us your feedback
[12:34]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) 	Nyx ill use the truck dae from the wiki as the test modle
[12:34]	davep (runitai.linden) 	we really couldn't have done this without you guys
[12:34]	Vivienne Daguerre 	Vivienne Daguerre smiles...
[12:34]	Vivienne Daguerre 	ones with hands that come out and do helpful things... helpful most of the time anyway
[12:34]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	I saw it too. I want to know new product more.
[12:34]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	Mesh is now integrated into the regular viewer Beta, which mean's we're on track for release before the end of August
[12:34]	Prep Linden 	Asha: if you got a rig to export correctly (and if you wouldn't mind) send the .dae my way. Thanks!
[12:34]	Pygar Bu 	woot
[12:34]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	The sim continues on the same track.
[12:35]	王みみか (mimika.oh)	Will there be another merge from mesh-dev to viewer-dev before release?
[12:35]	Lee Ponzu 	When do you think the bet will go mainstream?
[12:35]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	We know it's a little awkward having support on some sims, and not others, but we want to make sure everyting's stable.
[12:35]	Bloodsong Termagant 	#11 entered.
[12:35]	Nyx Linden 	no, mesh-dev is currently working on the second release
[12:35]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	We're on track to 100% before the end of august
[12:35]	Lee Ponzu 	OK. Sometime in Sept then 8-)
[12:35]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Ok, Prep. I'll let you know. :)
[12:36]	summse Sands 	why are the last viewer release are so damn slowly?
[12:36]	lonetorus Habilis 	where do i sign up to have my sim updated to mesh aware sim code?
[12:36]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	ok, new agneda items...
[12:36]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	10) Any chance of CTS-631 being considered after release? It can solve the big mesh = big PE problem.
[12:36]	Daniele Eberhardt 	hello all
[12:36]	davep (runitai.linden) 	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/CTS-631
[12:36]	MeshViewerTesting (wilhiammeshtest) 	What Jira is that ?
[12:36]	MeshViewerTesting (wilhiammeshtest) 	oh.. thnx
[12:36]	Drongle McMahon 	That was me. Sorry, I forgot to add name.
[12:36]	davep (runitai.linden) 	we were *just* talking about that
[12:37]	Mike Chase 	TY Runitai
[12:37]	Daniele Eberhardt 	you are talking in voice?
[12:37]	Drongle McMahon 	I hope you enjoyed the talking.
[12:37]	Liisa Runo 	would it be possible to make meshes render as the 2D pacman shape for the clients not able to draw mesh. The pacman shape it used to be before. It was easy way of seeing that there is a mesh object around. Now it is hard to tell if someone is wearign a mesh or jut trying to annoy people by wearing a giant white sphere.
[12:37]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	It's something we want to do - all a matter of priority and backlog
[12:38]	Nyx Linden 	requires some non-trivial messaging changes, need to find the time and resources to update the messaging
[12:38]	davep (runitai.linden) 	we *could* bake a change into the mesh asset itself, but that wouldn't let you fine tune it inworld
[12:38]	Drongle McMahon 	OK. I'm happy if it's still being considered.
[12:39]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	oh, yes.
[12:39]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	11) (there was no #10) Explain again the joint offsets/bone lengths, or lack thereof, or how you cant move or rotate bones in a rig...? you can't make quads or anything unless they are in human T-position? you can't make creatures with shortened legs or lengthened arms?
[12:39]	Prep Linden 	Bone positions in your rig can be repositioned, but we atm don't import any rotations or scaling information for them
[12:40]	Cale Flanagan 	is bone length not scaling?
[12:40]	Prep Linden 	but you can make tinies.
[12:40]	Bloodsong Termagant 	but last week you said the joints could be moved.
[12:40]	Bloodsong Termagant 	i think.
[12:40]	Prep Linden 	bloodsong: they are translated, only.
[12:41]	Bloodsong Termagant 	okay, so if i move the knee joint down towards the ankle joint... do i, or do i not, get a shorter shin???
[12:41]	Tapple Gao 	oops. I submitted a question number 10
[12:41]	Prep Linden 	bloodsong: I have the importer work done for the rotations and scaling - but I still need to do the viewer plumbing.
[12:42]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	tapple - I see it, thanks
[12:42]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	next...
[12:42]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	I'm going to need to see someone's tiny skelleton before I understand how that works.
[12:42]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	10) Where is the specification for how rigging works differently in collada 1.4.0 vs 1.4.1? I'm fixing blender 2.5 to work with SL, but am not sure whether the rotation issues are in blender, SL, or both (Tapple Gao)
[12:43]	davep (runitai.linden) 	(long answer)
[12:44]	Tapple Gao 	I made the patch that removes the rotation from the bind_aray in the dae
[12:44]	davep (runitai.linden) 	prep is typing
[12:44]	Prep Linden 	There really isn't a spec, but some fo the changes include:
[12:44]	Bloodsong Termagant 	okay, i just keep getting conflicting reports of what can or can't be done with the skeleton, and i'm confused all to heck. but carry on.
[12:45]	Prep Linden 	1.) changing the importer to extract translation sids correctly.
[12:45]	Tapple Gao 	shourt answer bloodsong: it's changing
[12:45]	dahlia1337 resident (dahlia.trimble) 	sids?
[12:45]	Prep Linden 	2.changing how we parse the visual scene (1.4.1 introduced a new node that is placed by default in the visual scene).
[12:45]	Prep Linden 	sids = scoped identifiers
[12:46]	Tapple Gao 	ah. so that's what the new NODE parent of the skeleton is
[12:46]	Tapple Gao 	will that allow the skeleton to be rotated differently in blender vs SL?
[12:47]	Flight Band 	All Go
[12:47]	Tapple Gao 	so you can do x axis mirroring in blender
[12:47]	Prep Linden 	tapple: the parser handles that new node - it doesn;t contrinute anything - it just broke the importer.e
[12:48]	Prep Linden 	tapple: no- we disregard the rotations to the bones.
[12:48]	dahlia1337 resident (dahlia.trimble) 	how many bones can influence a single vertex? I heard 4 once
[12:48]	Tapple Gao 	I meant the object-level rotation of the whole skeleton
[12:48]	Flight Band 	All Go
[12:49]	Tapple Gao 	I guess I should talk to you guys in private, not here
[12:49]	Flight Band 	All Go
[12:49]	Motor Loon 	it is somewhat tech talk °͜°
[12:50]	Prep Linden 	dahlia: 4
[12:50]	Eleanora Newell 	MeshViewerTesting, can you IM me when you get the chance? i cannot initiate IMs
[12:50]	dahlia1337 resident (dahlia.trimble) 	ty
[12:50]	Flight Band 	All Go
[12:51]	dahlia1337 resident (dahlia.trimble) 	what does it do if there are more than 4 in the .dae?
[12:51]	davep (runitai.linden) 	specifically, if your dae has more than 4 influences for one vertex, we take the four strongest influences and discard the rest, and normalize the resulting influence set
[12:51]	dahlia1337 resident (dahlia.trimble) 	kk
[12:53]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	ok, next
[12:53]	王みみか (mimika.oh)	I have a question but I am blocked from the wiki.
[12:53]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	12) Any chance we will be able to use the new physics setup for objects made with prims/sculpties, without being "punished" by our objects suddenly being treated as if they was mesh objects? [Motor Loon]
[12:53]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	mimika, just a sec.
[12:53]	王みみか (mimika.oh)	I will wait :)
[12:53]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	First off, calling it 'punishment' is misleading. Prior to now, we have not exposed the real weight of objects in the world. Now you know the truth. If you feel punished by the truth, I'm sorry. :-)
[12:54]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	mimika - IM me your question
[12:54]	Motor Loon 	ok, trying this on one of my existing products made it 55 prims instead of 30
[12:54]	Nyx Linden 	the new features use the new calculations - both mesh and physics shape types alike
[12:54]	davep (runitai.linden) 	one thing that's missing right now is the ability to "opt out" of the graphics/streaming pipe
[12:54]	davep (runitai.linden) 	i.e. have prims that are just physics
[12:54]	davep (runitai.linden) 	so they don't count against your streaming/geometry cost
[12:54]	Drongle McMahon 	The other onYes. We need that.
[12:55]	Drongle McMahon 	*Yes. We need that.
[12:55]	dahlia1337 resident (dahlia.trimble) 	how would you edit it then?
[12:56]	Motor Loon 	Charlar: we cant really "optmize" sculptie... its kinda hardcoded to the number of triangles it has
[12:56]	davep (runitai.linden) 	picking would still work,
[12:56]	davep (runitai.linden) 	picking isn't part of the graphics pipe any more
[12:56]	dahlia1337 resident (dahlia.trimble) 	but would you see the shape while editing?
[12:56]	davep (runitai.linden) 	yeah, you'd see it in the "physics shape" display
[12:56]	Nyx Linden 	if you turned on highlight transparent
[12:57]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	motor - I'm not implying we'd change their PE (sculpties), but we want to start showing you what their real impact is on the land (and performance)
[12:57]	Nyx Linden 	and selection highlights would still work of course
[12:58]	dahlia1337 resident (dahlia.trimble) 	adjusting collider size/shape is kinda hard if you cant see it
[12:58]	davep (runitai.linden) 	whoop, gott arun
[12:58]	dahlia1337 resident (dahlia.trimble) 	(see it in your scene)
[12:58]	davep (runitai.linden) 	thanks for the discussion
[12:58]	Nyx Linden 	of course - that's why there would be several ways to see it :)
[12:58]	Pygar Bu 	bye, Dave, thank you!
[12:58]	The Citizen (eric.dielli) 	Thanks for the info guys!
[12:58]	Liisa Runo 	so was the andfer for Motor Loon's question a yes or no?
[12:58]	Liisa Runo 	ansfer*
[12:58]	Motor Loon 	so, when I set my objects to have it baseprim (sculptie) to the physical part and the 29 other prims (sculpties) to have "none" for physics, and it suddenly doubles in PE... it does not mean it will counts as more prims on my land?
[12:58]	draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam) 	thanks, nyx, prep, charlar, and dan
[12:59]	Aki Shichiroji 	Thanks for the user group.
[12:59]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Thanks Lindens :)
[12:59]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	See you next week!
[12:59]	Aki Shichiroji 	Back to work for me. Have a great week
[12:59]	Koli Contepomi (sahkolihaa.contepomi) 	Thanks Charlie, Prep, Nyx, Runitai who's just left (bah)
[12:59]	Skygirl Kline 	byes
[12:59]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	Motors Agenda item question? "No" is the shortest answer.
[12:59]	Motor Loon 	sighs
[12:59]	Maxwell Graf 	Wheres teh open bar?
[12:59]	Maxwell Graf 	:)
[12:59]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	bye all! thanks again!
[12:59]	Nyx Linden 	thanks for coming all!
[12:59]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Bye all
[13:00]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	I'm headed there now Maxwell
[13:00]	Nyx Linden 	see everyone next week!
[13:00]	MeshViewerTesting (wilhiammeshtest) 	bye
[13:00]	Pygar Bu 	Thanks!
[13:00]	Motor Loon 	okie... tc all
[13:00]	Daniele Eberhardt 	thanks everyone
[13:00]	Prep Linden 	gotta run folks!
[13:00]	Ranya Palmer 	bye lindens
[13:00]	Lee Ponzu 	How is it that there were 60 vatars her4? Do these sandboxes have a different limit?
[13:00]	MeshViewerTesting (wilhiammeshtest) 	tc every1
[13:00]	Graham Dartmouth 	bye all
[13:00]	MeshViewerTesting (wilhiammeshtest) 	i thnk load on sim is less than fully packed, Lee
[13:00]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Adios :)
[13:00]	Maxwell Graf 	its two sims, Lee
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