Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2011.08.30

Simulator_User_Group
Prev 2011.08.26	Next 2011.09.02
== List of Speakers ==
Andrew Linden 	Arawn Spitteler	Arcane Laval
Elisha Richez 	Falcon Linden 	Fancy Greeter
Faust Vollmar 	Flip Idlemind 	Geo Meek
Imaze Rhiano 	Jonathan Yap 	Kallista Destiny
Kaluura Boa 	Kelly Linden 	Liisa Runo
Opensource Obscure 	Qie Niangao 	Rex Cronon
Sahkolihaa Contepomi	Simon Linden 	Sooden Ren
Vincent Nacon 	 	
== Transcript ==
[11:55] Simon Linden: Hi Koli and everyone
[11:55] Kaluura Boa: Hi again, Arc...
[11:55] Vincent Nacon: heya
[11:55] Arcane Laval: Hiya
[11:57] Vincent Nacon: I sense some news coming from ya, Simon... I can smell it. I want them, give them!
[11:57] Simon Linden: There's not much of anything from me today, I'm afraid
[11:57] Vincent Nacon: ....clearly I'm getting goofy because I'm tired to stay up another hour
[11:58] Vincent Nacon: oh... maybe it's rubbed off from Andrew
[11:58] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: LOL
[11:58] Simon Linden: I have seen a few good mesh AVs ... that's starting to spread around
[11:59] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Yeah, some of the marketplace already.
[11:59] Vincent Nacon: it'll spread fast once Phoenix/Firestorm supports it
[11:59] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: I suspect most mesh avatars to come out will be furry ones.
[11:59] Sooden Ren: i havent seem any mesh builds, but mesh clothes
[12:00] Imaze Rhiano: mesh avatars can't have hand or face movements :(
[12:00] Sooden Ren: many suits
[12:00] Sooden Ren: manly*
[12:00] Simon Linden: yeah, it's probably best for the wilder shaped AVs ... I don't know if I've seen any human ones yet
[12:00] Vincent Nacon: I really hope no skin designer gonna be nut enough to make avatar with skin and shape, along with fashion lines to go matching with that shape only
[12:01] Vincent Nacon: but sadly... it will happen
[12:01] Sooden Ren: you must have some news?!?
[12:01] Faust Vollmar: Of course it will. Mesh avs are kinda a commercial wet dream in that aspect
[12:01] Sooden Ren: cus my sim was reset for matanaince todat for 30 mns
[12:01] Sooden Ren: must have been an update
[12:01] Rex Cronon: greetings everybody
[12:01] Vincent Nacon: heya
[12:01] Sooden Ren: any idea what it was?
[12:02] Arcane Laval: Heyy
[12:02] Simon Linden: Sooden - Tuesday mornings are our normal updates, so I'd guess it was that
[12:02] Sooden Ren: ah
[12:02] Vincent Nacon: before going further... is Andrew attending?
[12:02] Sooden Ren: i not normaly awake at that time
[12:02] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Yeah, rolling restart for stable sims today.
[12:03] Simon Linden: There are typically 4 versions of the simulator on the main grid ... the main channel, which gets Tuesday updates, then 3 'RC' channels which have about 10% of the regions in each, and they get new code on Wednesdays
[12:03] Sooden Ren: aslo, kudos on the hat :P
[12:03] Sooden Ren: hats are good :)
[12:03] Simon Linden: Let me check if Andrew is around...
[12:03] Vincent Nacon: Fez are cool
[12:04] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: /me listens to the World of Goo soundtrack.
[12:04] Faust Vollmar: That is a wonderful soundtrack
[12:04] Simon Linden: I was thinking of adding some surprise scripts to my hat, but haven't come up with any good ideas yet
[12:04] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Only just found out it's available in FLAC from the author's website today.
[12:04] Faust Vollmar: =o
[12:04] Rex Cronon: make it a clock hat:)
[12:04] Sooden Ren: maybe add, touch and you fall over
[12:04] Sooden Ren: allways good for a giggle
[12:04] Rex Cronon: a bird pops out at 12:)
[12:05] Faust Vollmar: Downloading now, thank you Koli
[12:05] Simon Linden: Right now I can tell who touches it, and that's it
[12:05] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: :D
[12:05] Vincent Nacon: so like.... I touch it a bit much?
[12:05] Vincent Nacon: :P
[12:05] Rex Cronon: have particles point to who touchs it:)
[12:05] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Yay Andrew.
[12:05] Faust Vollmar: Make it pop confetti on like a 5% chance for every touch
[12:06] Simon Linden: ... and I can see the problem with spamming myself with those notices now
[12:06] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Hey Andrew.
[12:06] Vincent Nacon: yeah, thoughso
[12:06] Vincent Nacon: lesson learned
[12:06] Vincent Nacon: :)
[12:06] Andrew Linden: Hello.
[12:06] Vincent Nacon: heya
[12:06] Rex Cronon: greetings andrew
[12:06] Imaze Rhiano: hi
[12:06] Opensource Obscure: hello
[12:06] Andrew Linden: I forgot about User Group because today feels like Monday (I took yesterday off).
[12:06] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Haha
[12:06] Faust Vollmar: Simon you can cache who's touched it and ignore repeats, if you're really worried about the spam problem. =p
[12:06] Fancy Greeter: Kelly Linden has arrived!
[12:07] Faust Vollmar: I missed Kelly's OH yesterday, was there anything important?
[12:07] Vincent Nacon: got news? I could smell them that rubbed off from Simon
[12:07] Simon Linden: Right Faust, it's currently just one line telling me who touched it ... I need to figure out what I should do then...
[12:07] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Couple of fixes being rolled out to RC this week I think.
[12:07] Imaze Rhiano: Kelly announced that he have solved meaning of life
[12:07] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Such as llSetMemoryLimit
[12:08] Faust Vollmar: Ah, glad that's getting fixed, the odd behavior was confusing.
[12:08] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: But Kelly is here so you could ask him. :p
[12:08] Faust Vollmar: Ahoy Kelly
[12:08] Kelly Linden: Hrm? Hello
[12:08] Liisa Runo: 42
[12:08] Rex Cronon: now u have to pay 10L$ for each byte that goes over 1024;)
[12:09] Kelly Linden: Sounds like a good idea to me.
[12:09] Rex Cronon: greetings kelly
[12:10] Sooden Ren: i know this is a bit of a random question but all the brains are here ---- with script ever get 2d arrays?
[12:10] Rex Cronon: i was just kidding. haha
[12:10] Kallista Destiny: Sooden, some time after it gets 1D arrays
[12:10] Imaze Rhiano: yes.. in year 2048
[12:10] Andrew Linden: 2D arrays? When will it get a 1D array?
[12:10] Kallista Destiny: Jinx
[12:10] Jonathan Yap: Yes when the C# project is finished
[12:10] Sooden Ren: hmph
[12:10] Faust Vollmar: When? I'm kinda tempted to call that an If right now. =p
[12:10] Jonathan Yap: I guess for the C# project to be finished it first has to be resumed
[12:11] Sooden Ren: you know what i mean
[12:11] Sooden Ren: kinda like 2lists
[12:11] Vincent Nacon: dang.
[12:11] Sooden Ren: one list x , one list y
[12:11] Sooden Ren: but in on things
[12:11] Vincent Nacon: I must be smelling Eggos or something
[12:11] Sooden Ren: one thing
[12:12] Kallista Destiny: like a set of N lists
[12:12] Imaze Rhiano: ya... but I don't think that we will ever see arrays in LSL - maybe someday if C# project resurected or some other real programming language is introduced
[12:12] Simon Linden: Right, that's the best way we can get 'real' language features ... support programming in C#
[12:12] Rex Cronon: about at the same time we have inputtextdialogbox:)
[12:12] Kelly Linden: Arrays (of any dimension) and multi-demensional lists are unlikely to grace LSL.
[12:13] Vincent Nacon: what's the point of using 2D array when it's not complex enough for you make one yourself anyway?
[12:13] Andrew Linden: lists in LSL suck pretty bad. The fact that you need to make a function call to access the elements terrible (IMO).
[12:13] Andrew Linden: *is terrible*
[12:13] Kallista Destiny: Yeah, a real PITA
[12:13] Jonathan Yap: Rex, do you mean llTextBox?- I thought that was all done
[12:13] Rex Cronon: lltextbox is done?
[12:13] Vincent Nacon: I use rotation as four floats in a list, semi-2D array
[12:14] Opensource Obscure: joking? done, yes
[12:14] Imaze Rhiano: ya... official LL viewers nwo support it
[12:14] Kaluura Boa: I'd say half-done... until we can set some default text.
[12:14] Jonathan Yap: Yes Rex, ages ago and in the viewer
[12:14] Sooden Ren: Rpl: to vin - if it was sever sden it would be faster
[12:14] Jonathan Yap: well, setting default text is a project I will look into later this year
[12:14] Rex Cronon: it doesn't work. u can't input text in it
[12:14] Jonathan Yap: ok, not meaning to hijack the meeting
[12:14] Sooden Ren: making a a 2d with list is messay
[12:14] Faust Vollmar: Youre on an ancient viewer thats why. =p
[12:14] Vincent Nacon: I know but what I meant was ever the time to actually use it for something... for what?
[12:15] Faust Vollmar: Only third party v1 viewers have textbox support iirc
[12:15] Faust Vollmar: LL viewer only had it in v2+
[12:15] Kallista Destiny: Andrew are you all finished, for now, with Mesh?
[12:15] Vincent Nacon: I mean... it won't be likely used for something simple
[12:15] Sooden Ren: i even made a 3d with scrips, just eats code to manage it
[12:15] Andrew Linden: Kallista, yes I'm done with mesh, except for maintenance issues, if any show up.
[12:15] Vincent Nacon: not that I'm against 2d Array... just don't really need it
[12:16] Rex Cronon: right ancient viewer
[12:16] Andrew Linden: We've got the first maint-server for mesh in the works. I need to talk to Don Linden about it later today to make sure everything that needs to be merged into it has been.
[12:16] Andrew Linden: Then we'll put it up on aditi and start testing it.
[12:16] Kallista Destiny: Then I'd really like to bring up SVC-5927 which is still killing us.
[12:16] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-5927
[#SVC-5927] Temp on Rezzed objects get queued
[12:16] Andrew Linden: Ah yes.
[12:17] Sooden Ren: confused,mesh is on main grid, but testing is only un test grid?
[12:17] Andrew Linden: I guess I need to repro that problem and poke around.
[12:17] Qie Niangao: oh, and that reminds me, is there any news about llCastRay() ?
[12:17] Liisa Runo: ( Kelly did you remember to poke Maestro about that SCR-90 got re-opened? )
[12:17] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SCR-90
[#SCR-90] llGetBoundingBox() returns wrong values on Magnum RC
[12:17] Andrew Linden: The simulator is responding to an overload -- too many things being rezzed at once and it is trying to maintain FPS over the addition of objects.
[12:17] Opensource Obscure: Qie: some news...yes. i saw that the wiki page has been updated by Falcon recently
[12:17] Vincent Nacon: and get happy trigger with some weapon, Andrew
[12:18] Kallista Destiny: you need about 10-15 Avtars moveing around at full speed, each spraying 1 temp rez object a second
[12:18] Faust Vollmar: CastRay doesn't work for arrows anyway, since it can't simulate gravity drop.
[12:18] Andrew Linden: However people have suggested that there is a flaw in the logic -- it takes too long to recover.
[12:18] Qie Niangao: open, yeah, that's what prompted me to hope
[12:18] Faust Vollmar: So the Gor folk probably wont be using it.
[12:18] Kelly Linden: Yes Liisa
[12:18] Kallista Destiny: too long to recover, and when it does he flushes them ALL at once
[12:18] Liisa Runo: ^^
[12:18] Kallista Destiny: llCastRay also doesn't work acros regions
[12:19] Imaze Rhiano: Maybe Gor folk should upgrade their weapons to modern firearms... or better yet phasers and lasers - then they could also introduce latex outfits... :PPP
[12:19] Kallista Destiny: Is it possible to set the trigger threshold to 0.0?
[12:19] Kallista Destiny: PFFFFFT :p
[12:19] Andrew Linden: Kallista, I'll try to look into it. I'm still a little fuzzy on the projects that will be showing up on my list.
[12:20] Kallista Destiny: so it never gets triggered?
[12:20] Vincent Nacon: yeah, something like Star Trek
[12:20] Andrew Linden: I've got a bunch of small projects that need attention, and no big one yet.
[12:20] Vincent Nacon: and green Gor ladies
[12:20] Faust Vollmar: Combat across region borders has always been a BadIdea(tm) if you ask me anyway, but that is a good point, however by my understanding llCastRay is done at physics engine level, which isn't aware of the next sim at all, unlike sensor/objectdetails which is aware of 34m across borders.
[12:20] Andrew Linden: We'll see.
[12:20] Andrew Linden: But I was wanting to tackle region crossing bugs too.
[12:20] Fancy Greeter: Falcon Linden has arrived!
[12:20] Faust Vollmar: Speak of the Devil
[12:21] Qie Niangao: yay!
[12:21] Faust Vollmar: Hey Falcon
[12:21] Kallista Destiny: Yes there is also the rate limiter for llCastRay() which is a optntial killer.
[12:21] Falcon Linden: Hi folks
[12:21] Vincent Nacon: just in time
[12:21] Rex Cronon: greetings falcon
[12:21] Kallista Destiny: potential
[12:21] Falcon Linden: Kallista: an optntial killer?
[12:21] Falcon Linden: What's the complaint of the day? ;)
[12:21] Faust Vollmar: I was playing with CastRay and I didn't manage to hit the throttle going at 4 per second, a typical rate for bullets on CombatSystems with modern firearms use.
[12:21] Vincent Nacon: you, you're late
[12:21] Kallista Destiny: no showstopper for llCastRay() as a weapons addition
[12:21] Vincent Nacon: :P
[12:21] Kallista Destiny: Hi Falcon
[12:22] Falcon Linden: Vincent: No, I'm exactly on time for when I planned to arrive.
[12:22] Vincent Nacon: touche
[12:22] Kallista Destiny: Yes Gandolf
[12:22] Falcon Linden: Kallista: Oh?
[12:23] Kallista Destiny: That is what Gandolf tells Frodo at the start of the Movie.
[12:23] Imaze Rhiano: llCastRay doesn't cross borders and follow laws of gravity
[12:23] Qie Niangao: I'm not actually worried about how well llCastRay() can emulate these magical arrows; I'm just wondering when we'll be able to use it to, like, cast rays.
[12:23] Falcon Linden: I did a calculation on the llCastRay discussion page showing that gravity has a negligable effect on bullet trajectory for this use case. And to the extent that it must be considered, a simple linear approximation is plenty
[12:23] Fancy Greeter: Brett Linden has arrived!
[12:23] Faust Vollmar: Not being able to cross region boundaries is viewed as a showstopper against CastRay being adopted in place of bullets, basicly. It's not just the Gor sims who have that consern, its pretty much all combat
[12:23] Kallista Destiny: qie think of it as a very longrange but narrow llSensot()
[12:24] Imaze Rhiano: after that Gandalf did shoot huge firework - s o where are fireworks?
[12:24] Falcon Linden: As for crossing region boundaries, get creative. I can think of at least one feasible way to simulate region crossing.
[12:24] Andrew Linden: Falcon, the queuing of rezzing of projectiles is still a complaint of the day.
[12:24] Qie Niangao: Kallista, that's exactly what I want it for
[12:24] Falcon Linden: Andrew: They should rez fewer projectiles.
[12:24] Falcon Linden: For example, none.
[12:24] Qie Niangao: oh, and equally important, a *remote* linear "sensor"
[12:24] Falcon Linden: I like none. :)
[12:24] Falcon Linden: Here's a way to simulate crossing region boundaries:
[12:24] Andrew Linden: While we don't want to totally sacrifice sim FPS when rezzing projectiles, there is a possibility that the throttle response needs to be a little smarter.
[12:25] Vincent Nacon: none? oh you're gonna hate a lot of people here
[12:25] Andrew Linden: At the moment it chunks pretty hard.
[12:25] Rex Cronon: in a figth is kind of hard to rezz less bullets:)
[12:25] Falcon Linden: Vincent: Okay, so that's not really plausible without llCastRay :)
[12:25] Kallista Destiny: That's fin, give us a viable replacement for physics based ranged weapons.
[12:25] Falcon Linden: Put a "relay" object in each region. If a raycast reaches the current region boundary without registering a hit, have your relay message the neighboring sim to try extending the ray
[12:25] Falcon Linden: The delay caused by that isn't likely to be much more than the time it would have taken for a bullet to reach the sim boundary and cross
[12:26] Faust Vollmar: Thats a comms security nightmare
[12:26] Vincent Nacon: kinda cheesy way to do about it
[12:26] Kallista Destiny: and WAY laggy
[12:26] Falcon Linden: Vincent: That's all our implementation would do if we extended it to cross regions
[12:26] Imaze Rhiano: relay object would need to move to position and then cast ray... umm... I think...
[12:26] Falcon Linden: Kallista: nowhere near as laggy as physical bullets
[12:26] Falcon Linden: imaze: no it wouldn't. You can specify a start and end for the ray
[12:26] Imaze Rhiano: oh... sorry
[12:26] Vincent Nacon: not that I would use castray anyway
[12:27] Falcon Linden: That's what every modern game does.
[12:27] Falcon Linden: oh, I misread you
[12:27] Falcon Linden: try it.
[12:27] Falcon Linden: IF it doesn't work, show me your setup and I'll reconsider my position.
[12:27] Kallista Destiny: and how would the relay onject determine wich agent to allocate the sime slice to?
[12:27] Faust Vollmar: It would also require multiple relays because of the volume of castrays, one script can handle one person's worth with the 4/s firing rate, but not 10+ people's.
[12:27] Imaze Rhiano: modern games doesn't have region boundaries :P
[12:27] Falcon Linden: Kallista: That's a good point. If it becomes an issue, let me know.
[12:27] Rex Cronon: how would u use castray for mortar fire?
[12:27] Sooden Ren: i am so lost >< i though llcast ray was probaly a raycasting visual function :(
[12:27] Vincent Nacon: with math, Rez
[12:27] Vincent Nacon: Rex*
[12:28] Falcon Linden: Rex: no, for a mortar or a rocket that's only going to be fired fairly infrequently, physics objects are okay
[12:28] Kallista Destiny: lots of short segements
[12:28] Falcon Linden: Sooden: Nope, it casts in the physics world
[12:28] Rex Cronon: well. doing vector math in lsl can slow things down
[12:28] Falcon Linden: Not as much as rezzing physical bullets :)
[12:28] Kallista Destiny: or 20 peropl a 1 round a second.
[12:28] Falcon Linden: Again, give it a try. If you run into a real problem, I'll reconsider and think about how to fix it to make it more viable.
[12:29] Rex Cronon: that is weird. i rezzed lots of physical bullets. they don't make the sim go slow
[12:29] Falcon Linden: Rex: Do yours get queued?
[12:29] Faust Vollmar: If its possible to get the normal 34m across borders awareness that would be more than enough I think. Otherwise we will just have to get creative about it.
[12:29] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Oh it does when you've got two combat groups fighting one another in a sim.
[12:29] Kallista Destiny: Re, what happnes is the region boggs dow with people running around
[12:29] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: The sim drops to a crawl.
[12:29] Rex Cronon: how do u determine if they get qued?
[12:29] Falcon Linden: Rex: IF you can't tell, don't worry about it :)
[12:30] Rex Cronon: so. is the people that slow down the sim, not the bullets:)
[12:30] Falcon Linden: Now that we've resolved this issue perfectly and without any remaining problems :) I have a new feature proposal I wanted to discuss with you
[12:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[12:30] Falcon Linden: Rex: People slowing down the sim doesn't cause the problem these folks are complaining about (the queueing of objects).
[12:30] Kallista Destiny: then the temp rez thingy kicks in and about 10 seconds lather relaxes, releasing the 50 bllets all at once. After that ti's a never ending cycle of stop...start, stop ..... start, stop...
[12:30] Falcon Linden: That's only caused by large numbers of objects being rezzed at once.
[12:31] Falcon Linden: Kallista: it's not related to temp in any way. People just make most of their way-too-complicated, way-too-numerous bullets temp.
[12:31] Vincent Nacon: yeah, people want to be uber at shooting stuff
[12:31] Falcon Linden: And I want a pony.
[12:31] Falcon Linden: So, how about a new feature proposal?
[12:31] Andrew Linden: Hrm... perhaps a dynamic delay on the llRezObject() call could ease the sudden stop/start
[12:31] Faust Vollmar: Well, bows are actually pretty slow. 1/s. Modern weapon based sims have about 4/s if they're reasonable. =p Anyway moving on to new stuffs?
[12:31] Vincent Nacon: you want a pony? give me prim motor
[12:32] Falcon Linden: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlSetKeyframedAnimation
[12:32] Andrew Linden: that is, provide a feedback loop from the system that is detecting the load and adding more delay to scripts that are rezzing lots of stuff
[12:32] Falcon Linden: This is an unscheduled proposal
[12:32] Kallista Destiny: to be honest, it would be better to just not rez the onjects at all. Shooting at someone who is running and having the arrow rezzed 5 seconds late is a complete waste of effort (the targte isn't there anymore'.
[12:33] Falcon Linden: Andrew: Could be done at the script level...Also, we could reduce the number of objects allowed to rez once rezzing starts again in the physics simulation and slowly increase
[12:33] Simon Linden: Falcon ... one thing I realized is that people will want to be able to query where they are in that sequence
[12:33] Falcon Linden: Kallista: You know, raycasts don't need to be rezzed :)
[12:33] Sooden Ren: i know i will sound silly but: i think there sould be a limit of temp object spawn per av option for sim managers.
[12:33] Falcon Linden: Simon: llGetPos() ?
[12:33] Simon Linden: We could punt on that for now, however, I guess
[12:33] Falcon Linden: I thought about having a script event, but it seemed like an implementation nightmare
[12:33] Simon Linden: yeah, I think you'd have to figure it out yourself wiht time and llGEtPos()
[12:33] Falcon Linden: Sooden: I like your thinking
[12:33] Falcon Linden: Simon: also, just using an llTimer event should do it.
[12:34] Falcon Linden: Set your timer to the total time until you hit the desired frame. Then set it for the next frame delay.
[12:34] Falcon Linden: Anyhow, yes, I'm proposing http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlSetKeyframedAnimation which would let you make a lot of cool new stuff
[12:34] Imaze Rhiano: that is nice feature idea Falcon - but I think that people might want more than just rotation and vector
[12:34] Falcon Linden: Imaze: Ponies.
[12:34] Qie Niangao: sorry, did I miss it? Is llCastRay() on the main grid somewhere now?
[12:34] Vincent Nacon: much as I welcome new sort of ways to animation objects... I'd ask for BVH or XMI for the animation file which we could upload
[12:34] Falcon Linden: Qie: No, it's enabled in some of the upcoming RCs, though
[12:34] Kallista Destiny: Right now weapons , at least Gorean weapns are well obpimised to not cause lag , and tu continue to function under conditions of heavy lag.
[12:34] Falcon Linden: Vincent: this isn't a substitute for proper animation
[12:35] Vincent Nacon: oh what then?
[12:35] Qie Niangao: oh... okay, that's progress. Thanks, Falcon.
[12:35] Falcon Linden: It's for moving physics objects around
[12:35] Kallista Destiny: Most of th lag is casue by multi-le Agens moveing fast
[12:35] Simon Linden: There might be some difference if we have realtime vs. sim time (with dilation) but I tihnk it's OK as it is now
[12:35] Falcon Linden: I agree, someday I'd like to support importing the data from a real animation file
[12:35] Falcon Linden: But until then, I think this would add a lot value and for many use cases you don't need a full animation system
[12:35] Geo Meek: gota love the cloud
[12:35] Vincent Nacon: oh you mean like TargetOmega but on rail?
[12:35] Imaze Rhiano: maybe texture changes, texture offsets, scale and even sound effects associated to key frames
[12:35] Falcon Linden: Yes, but without the critical damping
[12:36] Falcon Linden: Imaze: Some day :)
[12:36] Vincent Nacon: hmm not all client side, right?
[12:36] Falcon Linden: None of it is client side.
[12:36] Andrew Linden: llTargetOmega() doesn't actually rotate "non-dynamic" objects -- they just appear to rotate.
[12:36] Vincent Nacon: ah nice, I fancy that
[12:36] Falcon Linden: Imaze: Those are actually great suggestions, though.
[12:36] Falcon Linden: Someday I'd love to support htem
[12:36] Falcon Linden: them*
[12:36] Falcon Linden: This works on whole linksets only and only on NONPHYSICAL linksets
[12:36] Falcon Linden: but it does really move them
[12:36] Falcon Linden: An elevator would let an avatar ride without sitting on it
[12:36] Qie Niangao: interesting
[12:36] Falcon Linden: A door would be impassible if closed but passible if open
[12:37] Falcon Linden: passable*
[12:37] Kallista Destiny: By the way, is llCastRay() even turned on yet?
[12:37] Qie Niangao: would the object have a velocity?
[12:37] Falcon Linden: Kallista: It's been enabled in some upcoming RC candidates
[12:37] Vincent Nacon: oh... can't see any use for it on cars
[12:37] Falcon Linden: Qie: Yes, in fact the keyframing system would work by determining the velocity needed to reach the next position/orientation at the requested time
[12:37] Falcon Linden: vincent: neither can I
[12:37] Qie Niangao: very interesting.
[12:37] Simon Linden: It wouldn't be used for cars, unless you mean something like a street car with a pre-programmed track
[12:37] Faust Vollmar: Oh. I did have one more thing I wanted to ask about, related to llCastRay. Would there be any chance of getting a llSayAt(vector Pos, integer Chan, string Msg) function? llRegionSayTo is absolutely beautiful for Single-target attacks, but, AoE with llCastRay would require rezzing an object to relay the chat right now.
[12:38] Vincent Nacon: maybe door opening when not driving the car?
[12:38] Falcon Linden: Vincent: you could have the car chat a message to the door to open
[12:38] Imaze Rhiano: elevators would need physical support from this function - unless it is elevator where person is sitting
[12:38] Rex Cronon: this llsetkeyframedanim seems good for a taxi/bus line:)
[12:38] Sooden Ren: hiya arwan :)
[12:38] Vincent Nacon: muhaha! no
[12:38] Falcon Linden: Imaze: You misunderstand. This would allow /nonphysical/ objects to have a real velocity
[12:38] Arawn Spitteler: Hi, Soo, glad you could make it
[12:39] Kallista Destiny: Were Vector pos is within some reasonable distance (say 500M) of the sender.
[12:39] Andrew Linden: for example, you could open a door with a keyframed motion -- it would be smooth and could actually push a dynamic object as it went
[12:39] Vincent Nacon: but what I don't understand is why this can't be applied on physical object
[12:39] Falcon Linden: Imaze: collisions with physical objects would occur (affecting the physical object) but without affecting the keyframed object. So the elevator could push an avatar up.
[12:39] Falcon Linden: Vincent: Because a physical object will be affected by its collisions with other objects and that would make it difficult or impossible to ensure it reaches the target keyframe on time
[12:39] Falcon Linden: (or ever)
[12:39] Geo Meek: anything to fix being a cloud?
[12:39] Faust Vollmar: Eh if CastRay can be anywhere in the sim regardless of distance, I dont see why llSayAt couldn't be. It would just need the non-0 restriction like llRegionSay does.
[12:40] Vincent Nacon: hmm
[12:40] Andrew Linden: as opposed to just rotating the door a little bit at a time until it is open
[12:40] Kallista Destiny: Geo, chang your hair base as a first try
[12:40] Geo Meek: thanky
[12:40] Vincent Nacon: but then... why would it need to?
[12:40] Vincent Nacon: self-collision?
[12:40] Falcon Linden: Vincent: Need to what?
[12:40] Kallista Destiny: Faust, that doesn't help cross boundry issues
[12:41] Vincent Nacon: for self-collision? make them passive in its own linkset
[12:41] Sooden Ren: is that the internet?
[12:41] Falcon Linden: Vincent: It doesn't work on child prims. Only whole linksets. That's for unfortunate technical reasons on the simulator
[12:41] Rex Cronon: u know what is missing with this new llsetkeyframanim? a nice video that shows how is supposed to work:)
[12:41] Vincent Nacon: ah oh well
[12:41] Falcon Linden: Rex: Hehe. Can't help you there
[12:41] Falcon Linden: Here's an example use case, though:
[12:42] Falcon Linden: on a touch event for an elevator, you call llSetKeyframedAnimation([10, <0, 0, 10>, ZERO_ROTATION], FALSE, []);
[12:42] Falcon Linden: That will cause the elevator to move up 10m by giving it a velocity of 1m/s up
[12:42] Rex Cronon: i wonder if u could put this in a bullets and push everything and everyone away from its path?
[12:43] Qie Niangao: this would mean a whole different kind of Puppeteer-like script, that does all the child prims (and other prim properties) in sync with the keyframe animation
[12:43] Falcon Linden: Rex: It wouldn't affect other nonphysical objects. It would push avatars and physical objects.
[12:43] Opensource Obscure: lovely
[12:43] Vincent Nacon: how does it render on collision_event?
[12:43] Rex Cronon: u wouldn't have to use push:)
[12:43] Falcon Linden: Vincent: Only collision events with physical objects will be triggered
[12:43] Vincent Nacon: I meant for phyiscal object
[12:44] Qie Niangao: heh good point Rex
[12:44] Imaze Rhiano: is this blocking or non-blocking function (blocking - script can't run another LSL command until key frames are done)?
[12:44] Falcon Linden: Qie: Ugh. I really hate that the only way to animate child prims is to physically set their position. It's so bad for performance...By the way, try making the child prims have no physics shape. Way more efficient!
[12:44] Sooden Ren: ouch my head
[12:44] Falcon Linden: Imaze: Nonblocking
[12:44] Andrew Linden: Think of the keyframed object as something with infinite mass -- it cannot be stopped by dynamic objects, and if it hits another static object it just moves right through.
[12:44] Falcon Linden: Though setting another keyframed animation would replace the current one
[12:44] Falcon Linden: Yes, what Andrew said :)
[12:45] Qie Niangao: would be good for tidying up sandboxes. :p
[12:45] Imaze Rhiano: you might also need then somekind "CompletedKeyframeAnimation" event and llStopKeyframeAnimetion function too
[12:45] Vincent Nacon: and... how would this apply to a pony you wanted?
[12:45] Simon Linden: well, I can think of a fun griefing mode for this one ... rez a 64m cube, send it marching across the region...
[12:45] Falcon Linden: imaze: an empty list of keyframes will stop it.
[12:45] Opensource Obscure: he would push the pony away. far away
[12:45] Falcon Linden: Simon: Hmm, yes, well, there is that. Maybe a size limit is in order. But that would limit trains.
[12:46] Falcon Linden: Imaze: and you can use a timer event to know when it's completed
[12:46] Vincent Nacon: so... he wanted an elevator, not a pony?
[12:46] Andrew Linden: hrm... the keyframed motion is going to have to fail if it tries to move the object into a parcel that is full, or where the owner is banned.
[12:46] Simon Linden: but thinking about it, I'm not sure you can't do that already wiht llSetPos() in some way
[12:46] Falcon Linden: Andrew: that'll happen automatically, I think
[12:46] Faust Vollmar: Ew timer approximation
[12:46] Faust Vollmar: That never works as well as its sposed to
[12:46] Falcon Linden: Faust: we'll be using a similar timer to do the actually animation
[12:46] Andrew Linden: sure Falcon, if it is using the right code path.
[12:46] Rex Cronon: oh. so when used as an elevator, it will push up avatars that walk on it?
[12:46] Vincent Nacon: does it allow itself go across sims?
[12:46] Falcon Linden: Andrew: canMoveOnParcel will fail and the object will get stopped, I believe.
[12:46] Falcon Linden: Rex: yep
[12:46] Falcon Linden: Vincent: I think that should be possible
[12:47] Falcon Linden: I'd need to try it to know for sure
[12:47] Opensource Obscure: so, are we going to get this new feature in 2011? too early to say maybe?
[12:47] Imaze Rhiano: I agree with Faust - timer approximation are ebil
[12:47] Falcon Linden: oobscure: too early to say, it's just a proposal right now
[12:47] Opensource Obscure: ok thanks
[12:47] Kallista Destiny: escalators!!!
[12:47] Rex Cronon: i wonder if u could make an apc with that?
[12:47] Falcon Linden: Imaze: I'm pretty sure that the way I'm imagining this you'll be guaranteed that your timer will run at the same speed or slower than the animation
[12:48] Vincent Nacon: I had other proposal that was similar but not as nonphysical though
[12:48] Falcon Linden: Kallista: Could do.
[12:48] Rex Cronon: apc=armored personel carrier
[12:48] Andrew Linden: Falcon, you should probably just implement the demo and then we'll decide how to prioritize finishing it.
[12:48] Sooden Ren: i'm gonna get andrew a comb for x-mas
[12:48] Qie Niangao: Does anybody know whether the "griefing mode" is already possible with llSetPos() ? I have no clue.
[12:49] Falcon Linden: We'd probably want to fix the animation system so that avatar animations are based on your velocity relative to the thing you're standing on, rather than being absolute
[12:49] Vincent Nacon: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlSetLinkMotorParam
[12:49] Vincent Nacon: old suggestion
[12:49] Falcon Linden: Confirmed, the griefing mode would work with llSetPos :)
[12:49] Rex Cronon: griefing mode?
[12:49] Falcon Linden: Vincent: Sadly, that would be part of implementing hierarchy and joints which is completely unscheduled
[12:50] Qie Niangao: well, the concern was whether this would introduce a *new* griefing mode, but apparently not.
[12:50] Vincent Nacon: yeah, I knew it would be a long while till I see it
[12:50] Falcon Linden: Rex: It was suggested that you could use this to move a huge prim through a region, pushing everyone/every physical thing out. But that can be done with llSetPos
[12:50] Falcon Linden: Vincent: I'd /love/ to support it, though
[12:50] Falcon Linden: It's just not currently feasible. Proper support would take several months
[12:50] Falcon Linden: At least.
[12:50] Rex Cronon: that griefing mode
[12:51] Vincent Nacon: so yeah... what's with the greifing mode?
[12:51] Vincent Nacon: muhaha!
[12:51] Falcon Linden: vincent: there isn't one
[12:51] Falcon Linden: nevermind
[12:51] Arawn Spitteler: Pushing an object will only displace what's got dynamics enabled, not sitting avatars
[12:51] Falcon Linden: Anyhow, we've had some discussions internally around the keyframed animation stuff, so I'll update the page soon
[12:51] Falcon Linden: But feel free to discuss on the discussion page
[12:51] Falcon Linden: Hopefully it'll take less time to release this than llCastRay :)
[12:52] Imaze Rhiano: how about adding llTeleportAgent function to LSL? :P
[12:52] Rex Cronon: it would be so weird if u introduce a new function that allows to push avatars sitting on non-physical things. lol
[12:52] Falcon Linden: Imaze: That would be handy, wouldn't it?
[12:52] Imaze Rhiano: ya
[12:52] Imaze Rhiano: weeeery handy
[12:52] Kallista Destiny: I thought that that got hashed over earlier this year?
[12:52] Rex Cronon: imagine all the money wasted for buying protection
[12:53] Faust Vollmar: Designing that llCastRay relay system is gonna be a real pain in the ass... But I guess its not like I have anything better to do.
[12:53] Kallista Destiny: Rather throughly
[12:53] Imaze Rhiano: Rex - sometimes you need to destroy village to save it :P
[12:54] Arawn Spitteler wants to raze a village to take a child: llTeleportAgent is discussed every year, isn't it?
[12:54] Kallista Destiny: @rex: "Youse gotta nice store here, it's be a shame if something happend to it."{
[12:54] Rex Cronon: it could also mean the end to all those jerks that like to sit and push/kill all those that arent:)
[12:55] Vincent Nacon: maybe as option for sim estate control panel?
[12:55] Rex Cronon: lol. than u would have to pay for "protection" kallista:)
[12:55] Falcon Linden: Anything else for me?
[12:55] Andrew Linden: here's a funny idea: how about we implement llJumpos() and llWarpos() ?
[12:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[12:55] Falcon Linden: Andrew: heh
[12:55] Sooden Ren: alwasy make new things a easta option
[12:56] Faust Vollmar: Would only need the JumpPos since JumpPos is just a more effective version of WarpPos
[12:56] Vincent Nacon: oh yeah...
[12:56] Flip Idlemind: OBJECT_REGION_POS, I think it was going to called...long ago
[12:56] Sooden Ren: give use more power:P
[12:56] Rex Cronon: for objects?
[12:56] Vincent Nacon: this animation could work on HUD?
[12:56] Liisa Runo: llSLPPFast(n[PRIM_POS_UNLIMITED,<DEBUG_CHANNEL,0,42>]);
[12:56] Vincent Nacon: not to use it as physical movement but as prim moving across screen slowly than just popping over there
[12:56] Rex Cronon: but u would need a function to test if object can jump to new pos in a different sim
[12:56] Falcon Linden: Andrew: call is llSetPosEx( vector position, integer wParam_reserved, integer lParam_reserved) :)
[12:57] Andrew Linden: There's a good question Falcon. will keyframed motion work on attachments?
[12:57] Falcon Linden: No, attachments have no physics.
[12:57] Falcon Linden: We could provide support for it someday
[12:57] Falcon Linden: But the initial release wouldn't
[12:57] Vincent Nacon: I was using FOR() statement for sliding a prim across the hud
[12:57] Andrew Linden: That fooEX() a MS SDK joke right?
[12:57] Falcon Linden: Andrew: yes :)
[12:58] Falcon Linden: See, e.g., http://win32assembly.online.fr/tut20.html
[12:58] Falcon Linden: better: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms633571(v=vs.85).aspx
[12:58] Vincent Nacon: I seem to recall about SVG stuff for hud
[12:59] Vincent Nacon: like 2 years ago
[12:59] Vincent Nacon: muhaha!
[12:59] Falcon Linden: All right folks, I've gott arun
[12:59] Rex Cronon: being able to print letters/works on textures would save lots on textures
[12:59] Falcon Linden: gotta run, too
[12:59] Rex Cronon: tc falcon
[12:59] Opensource Obscure: bye falcon
[12:59] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: See you, Falcon. Thanks for coming. :o
[12:59] Andrew Linden: I think the OpenSim guys implemented SVG on a hud. But we have not implemented it.
[12:59] Vincent Nacon: later Falcon.
[12:59] Falcon Linden: Happy to be here. Have fun!
[12:59] Imaze Rhiano: bye falcon
[13:00] Faust Vollmar: Before you go falcon did you see me ask about llSayAt ?
[13:00] Kallista Destiny: Thank you for your time Falcon, Kelly, andrew, simon
[13:00] Faust Vollmar: Drat
[13:00] Arawn Spitteler: llTPAgent should probably take a minute's sleep, when worn
[13:00] Imaze Rhiano: ... Andrew - did you notice that Falcon just stole your office hour? :P
[13:00] Vincent Nacon: wanted to bug him with Density but he seem like in a good mood
[13:00] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: And yes, enjoy the rest of your week Kelly, Andrew & Simon.
[13:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[13:00] Rex Cronon: is called cooperation:)
[13:00] Andrew Linden: Yeah that's fine Imaze. He asked in person before he logged in.
[13:00] Andrew Linden: And I didn't have much on the agenda anyway.
[13:01] Sooden Ren: dam you only hang for the time you are payed for.... my hero :P
[13:01] Opensource Obscure: thanks Kelly, Andrew & Simon - take care everybody
[13:01] Andrew Linden: Thanks for coming everyone.
[13:01] Faust Vollmar: I guess llSayAt is more a question for Kelly than here. Someone remember that for me because I never manage to wake up in time for Kelly's office hours
[13:01] Arawn Spitteler: Sooden should come more often
[13:01] Vincent Nacon: ok my bed is calling for me
[13:01] Rex Cronon: tc all those leaving
[13:01] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Been a very interesting office hour.
[13:01] Sooden Ren: yeah i know
[13:01] Qie Niangao: Thanks all... have fun!
[13:01] Vincent Nacon: later all
[13:01] Sooden Ren: just been so bussy
[13:02] Vincent Nacon: no, that field is long gone
[13:02] Elisha Richez: aww...
[13:02] Liisa Runo: is not
[13:02] Sooden Ren: learning to model for mesh taken 16 hours days for 4 weeks
[13:02] Arawn Spitteler: I'm in Connecticut, where lots of people are lacking kitchens.
[13:02] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: There's 4of them, actually.
[13:02] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: 4*
[13:02] Liisa Runo: The Corn Field (128,128,2)
[13:02] Vincent Nacon: where?
[13:02] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Oh, 5. 1/2/3/4 are linked together.
[13:03] Liisa Runo: there is only one REAL corn field,
[13:03] Arawn Spitteler: I'm in New Haven, but our burbs are suffering
[13:03] Sooden Ren: now woried about this keyframe thing
[13:03] Vincent Nacon: I don't that's the real one
[13:03] Vincent Nacon: don't think*
[13:03] Andrew Linden: We go to the corn field about twice a year I think.
[13:03] Liisa Runo: it is
[13:03] Vincent Nacon: where's the barn?
[13:03] Sooden Ren: i dont wanna have to learn depper anim too
[13:03] Elisha Richez: i like it there
[13:03] Andrew Linden: Last time was in March, so it is almost time again.
[13:03] Andrew Linden: Maybe in Sept. Harvest time.
[13:03] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Heh.
[13:03] Liisa Runo: the real corn field dont have barn, the fake halloween cornfields had barn, real corn field never been open to public
[13:04] Andrew Linden: It has a tractor.
[13:04] Elisha Richez: its like twighlight zone......and check my profile picks.....
[13:04] Rex Cronon: u could visit it if u were a "good" person:)
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