Open Source Meeting/2007-11-15

< Open Source Meeting
Open source meeting - Thursday, 2pm PT.
Teleport to the Linden Open Source Project headquarters.
== Agenda ==
* New Item?
* (filler, if no other items) Separate Network Layer from rest of Viewer? API Design & Model. Plug-in Layer/Architecture. General direction and next procedural step?
== Transcript ==
* [14:00] Harleen Gretzky: Hi Liana :)
* [14:01] Dzonatas Sol: Hi Liana
* [14:02] Seg Baphomet: HAY GUYS
* [14:02] Dzonatas Sol: hi seg
* [14:02] Michelle2 Zenovka: hi ya Seg
* [14:03] Tillie Ariantho: Heyas! :)
* [14:03] Dzonatas Sol: Heya Rob
* [14:03] Michelle2 Zenovka: Hi Rob, Hi Q
* [14:03] Rob Linden: hi folks....I'm helping firefight right now, so I'll be a little late in actually paying attention
* [14:03] Michelle2 Zenovka: ohh sound bad :-(
* [14:03] Dzonatas Sol: Do we want to table today's meeting?
* [14:03] Q Linden: hi all
* [14:03] Dzonatas Sol: for next week?
* [14:03] Seg Baphomet: is preparing up to date Fedora 8 packages to help get the damn curl bug fixed. Whee.
* [14:04] Liana Linden: Does anyone have pressing agenda items for this week?
* [14:04] Wyn Galbraith: Someday I'll learn to land
* [14:04] Q Linden: more fun to fall from a greath height
* [14:04] Tillie Ariantho: Pressing agenda items? Nopes, only annoying bugs that returned, like the "crash-on-failed-tp". .)
* [14:05] Wyn Galbraith: Q, I do that on a daily bases, I walk off platforms all the time, or tp somewhere high up and forgot to be in fly.
* [14:05] Tillie Ariantho: Or "gesture-missing-from-database" being the default standing anim which is quite annoying after a login. .)
* [14:05] Tillie Ariantho: Ah yes.
* [14:05] Tillie Ariantho: Open Source ...
* [14:05] Michelle2 Zenovka: Tille is that the new RC or the 1.18.4. series?
* [14:06] Tillie Ariantho: What about a build project for xcode 3! for Leopard?
* [14:06] Tillie Ariantho: The crash-on-failed-tp was reported some time ago to be fixed in a server patch. So ANY client... as it returned...
* [14:06] Wyn Galbraith: Hey Squirrel!
* [14:06] Michelle2 Zenovka: Have not hit the issue my self
* [14:07] Dzonatas Sol: I put up an item for discussion, but it is not a pressing issue: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source_Meeting/Agenda
* [14:07] Tillie Ariantho: that one? "Separate Network Layer from rest of Viewer? API Design & Model. Plug-in Layer/Architecture. General direction and next procedural step?"
* [14:08] Dzonatas Sol: yes
* [14:08] Tillie Ariantho: Sounds like some client cleanup... break it down to manageable chunks. .)
* [14:09] Dzonatas Sol: We've seen this subject come up before, but it be good to get something talked about where the open source team can continue.
* [14:10] Rob Linden: Dzonatas: is there a proposal on the mailing list about that?
* [14:11] Dzonatas Sol: A specific proposal... none recently.
* [14:11] Rob Linden: next step: write up a proposal and send it to sldev, or ping sldev on an old proposal
* [14:12] Kiosk: SL: Open Source General Info whispers: Thank you! Your items will be delivered to you soon!
* [14:12] Tillie Ariantho: I'd like to have a working project file for the mac... the current one is broken at least for xcode 3, and I heard for xcode 2.1 too.
* [14:13] Seg Baphomet: Ahahahaha the return of the "Eat all RAM and die" bug.
* [14:13] Seg Baphomet: That machine isn't even x86-64.
* [14:13] Seg Baphomet: Sigh.
* [14:13] Q Linden: Tillie, is that still true in the 1.18.5 drop from yesterday?
* [14:14] Rob Linden: there should have been an XCode fix in 1.18.5, iirc
* [14:14] Tillie Ariantho: Seg: that one I can reproduce more or less good... TP to like 4-5 prim+texture heavy sims and then try uploading a texture --> SL stalls, heavy disc access... Windows doesnt repsond anymore. -> need hard reset.
* [14:14] Tillie Ariantho: Q: Which one? the disc-on-failed-tp?
* [14:14] Michelle2 Zenovka: Speaking of the 1.18.5 drio there is still a significant amout of patching required to build standalone on amd64 linux
* [14:14] Q Linden: mac project
* [14:14] Tillie Ariantho: Er, no, I tried with the 1.8.4.x ...
* [14:15] Tillie Ariantho: I'll give the 1.8.5 a try then. :)
* [14:15] Q Linden: I think it's fixed there
* [14:15] Tillie Ariantho: Hope so. :) Thanks.
* [14:16] Dzonatas Sol: That's fine with me -- to gather a more active proposal.
* [14:17] Morgaine Dinova: Are gstreamer libraries being supplied in the Linux alpha client for 1.18.5? Because there was no streaming video available when running on 64-bit boxes in 1.18.4.3, as a result of the 3 gstreamer libs being missing.
* [14:17] Rob Linden: k....we're pretty low on agenda items here. anyone care to own building the agenda for two weeks from now (next week is Thanksgiving in the US)
* [14:17] Seg Baphomet: Last I tried gstreamer didn't work worth a crap anyway.
* [14:18] Seg Baphomet: Is it supposed to work?
* [14:18] Tillie Ariantho: I am too busy currently to follor the SLDEV list, so I can't do it, sorry.
* [14:18] Tillie Ariantho: follow
* [14:18] Morgaine Dinova: What was wrong with it? It test it if the libs were supplied, but they weren't, in 1.18.4.3
* [14:19] Dzonatas Sol: I can continue doing the agenda/transcript, and try to ping more activity on the items.
* [14:19] Morgaine Dinova: I'd* test it
* [14:19] Rob Linden: any volunteers for agenda two weeks from now?
* [14:19] Seg Baphomet: It crashes? Something about glib threading not being initialized.
* [14:19] Rob Linden: oh, Dz. ok
* [14:19] Squirrel Wood: Thanks to some smart coder VWR-1876 (Sound files are deleted from the cache when exiting the SL client application) has been imported ^^
* [14:19] Squirrel Wood: err... 2876 it was
* [14:20] Rob Linden: thanks
* [14:20] Dzonatas Sol: you're welcome
* [14:20] Tillie Ariantho: I have three JIRAs too. .) VWR-3176 VWR-3175 VWR-3174
* [14:20] Emma Nowhere: is the installer in the source tree?
* [14:20] Seg Baphomet: So much to do. So little bandwidth.
* [14:21] Tillie Ariantho: All three from a griefer incident some 30 minutes ago at a Linden office hour. .)
* [14:21] Seg Baphomet: The vectorized DWT landed in OpenJPEG SVN. :)
* [14:21] Seg Baphomet: Looks like the plan is to do a new release next week.
* [14:22] Morgaine Dinova: Well I believe that Tofu doesn't have Office Hours. So might it be possible for someone to ask him about the missing gstreamer libs, and report back at next OS meeting?
* [14:22] Seg Baphomet: However, some patches to reduce memory usage also got merged. That crash second life.
* [14:22] Liana Linden: I'll ping tofu about gstreamer.
* [14:22] Tillie Ariantho: "Muting an avatar should mute all his items, too.", "new windows shall not steal window focus" and third one is "Limit number of request windows (eg. '... would like to animate you')" ... one griefer attack and so many requests after it. .)
* [14:22] Morgaine Dinova: Thanks Liana
* [14:22] Rob Linden: Tofu does read sldev, so pinging him there should be effective
* [14:22] Seg Baphomet: I've got to file a Jira for that.
* [14:23] Morgaine Dinova: Good idea Rob
* [14:23] Michelle2 Zenovka: Seg how bad are the new crashes?
* [14:23] Wyn Galbraith: Oh I like that muting the avatar items.
* [14:23] Seg Baphomet: Crash as in unusable.
* [14:23] Tillie Ariantho: Yeah, muting an item doesnt help in a griefer attack, as griefer just drop hundreds if items ...
* [14:23] Michelle2 Zenovka: Very often or just random?
* [14:23] Wut Burt: Also there might also be a "Mute" button on AV animation requests and similar spammable notifications
* [14:24] Seg Baphomet: As in, can't start the viewer. :)
* [14:24] Michelle2 Zenovka: oh, dam
* [14:24] Q Linden: tillie, there's already been some internal discussion on limiting rate of window creation; probably based on that incident
* [14:24] Seg Baphomet: OpenJPEG ends up returning a NULL pointer for the decode result.
* [14:24] Tillie Ariantho: ,)
* [14:24] Morgaine Dinova: Muting all of an avatar's objects would help if they were never downloaded to the client. It would relieve the server loading from griefing too.
* [14:24] Tillie Ariantho: Q: would be good.
* [14:24] Seg Baphomet: A simple check for NULL before using it fixes things. Mostly.
* [14:25] Tillie Ariantho: Q: Something like 20 requests for animation doesnt make any sense anyway... so the number could be limited.
* [14:25] Squirrel Wood: there is a jira on "profile shows (???) (???) in name field when right-clicking an avatars attachment for the profile"...
* [14:25] Seg Baphomet: There seems to be something odd going on with resolution level discarding.
* [14:25] Liana Linden: I'm going to run off and take care of some other things. Thanks for coming, everyone.
* [14:25] Morgaine Dinova: Cyu Liana
* [14:25] Tillie Ariantho: There could be even a limit of 1, as you could be animated by 1 item only, anyway ...
* [14:25] Squirrel Wood: also I'd suggest that while one user or one of their objects has a permission dialog pending, no other perm dialogs from the same player should be opened
* [14:26] Seg Baphomet: SL hits OpenJPEG in ways I don't think anything else does.
* [14:26] Michelle2 Zenovka: ok, i will hold off the upgrade for the moment then and stick with my svn version i am using now
* [14:26] Tillie Ariantho: Best would be a toogle: [x
* [14:27] Morgaine Dinova: At server end :-)
* [14:27] Michelle2 Zenovka: I was starting the push to get it into debian
* [14:27] Wut Burt: Tillie: Since I was looking for that very toggle, seconded :)
* [14:27] Tillie Ariantho: .)
* [14:27] Seg Baphomet: I see no reason to queue more than one permission request per object.
* [14:27] Tillie Ariantho: yes.
* [14:27] Squirrel Wood: [Decline and mute further requests from same player
* [14:27] Seg Baphomet: That assumes the griefer was using just one object. :)
* [14:27] Tillie Ariantho: Ah... maybe some more....
* [14:27] Rob Linden: Michelle2 which branch are you on?
* [14:28] Kooky Jetaime: well, per script makes more safety sense
* [14:28] Tillie Ariantho: If you go buy something you sometimes have several windows with a vendor ...
* [14:28] Michelle2 Zenovka: of openjpeg? or the viewer?
* [14:28] Kooky Jetaime: since its possible to have two scripts in 1 object each needing perms
* [14:28] Kooky Jetaime: I have a hud for example that has mulitple scripts req'ing perms..
* [14:29] Tillie Ariantho: Q: that attack some minutes ago was really bad... the griefer dropped some floating items that made noice, changed the name all the time to a random avatar name, shouted illegal stuff and spammed all avs with animation requests.
* [14:30] Squirrel Wood: Oh my.
* [14:30] Tillie Ariantho: Must have been more than 200 open windows... I got tired then and relogged to get rid of them.
* [14:30] Michelle2 Zenovka: Rob I've lost the svn version of openjpeg but last changelog was 12 oct, viewer i'm on 18.5
* [14:30] Seg Baphomet: Yeah it killed the meeing pretty good.
* [14:30] Q Linden: whose meeting was it?
* [14:30] Squirrel Wood: the best way to "fix" those is to TP away, decline the requests, mute the player and return to where you came from.
* [14:30] Tillie Ariantho: Zero's meeting.
* [14:30] Morgaine Dinova: Which/Donovan meeting
* [14:30] Tillie Ariantho: Er
* [14:30] Tillie Ariantho: Which. .)
* [14:31] Q Linden: ah, cool. He's across the room
* [14:31] Q Linden: I'll talk to him
* [14:31] Kooky Jetaime: glad I didn't goto which's :)
* [14:31] Tillie Ariantho: Yeah, go ask him. :)
* [14:31] Wyn Galbraith: entered an AR on that attack.
* [14:31] Tillie Ariantho: And if you need jiras for it, see the three ones I opened. .)
* [14:31] Q Linden: noted
* [14:32] Tillie Ariantho: Bad thing was: the spamming even prevented any typing...
* [14:32] Gigs Taggart: dialog spam?
* [14:32] Tillie Ariantho: as the window opening steals the chat window focus.
* [14:32] Gigs Taggart: there are two patches on JIRA to mitigate that
* [14:32] Tillie Ariantho: Gigs. :D
* [14:32] Squirrel Wood: basically animation permission requests which when accepted would animate you using a broken animation.
* [14:32] Morgaine Dinova: Perms window spam. Window creation shouldn't grab focus
* [14:32] Gigs Taggart: yeah that
* [14:32] Gigs Taggart: I wrote a patch and I think Dale did too
* [14:32] Gigs Taggart: both mitigate it in different ways
* [14:32] Gigs Taggart: so both could be applied
* [14:32] Gigs Taggart: but none were.
* [14:33] Harleen Gretzky: We can't hear someone over hear only getting half the convo, think it is Wut we cannot hear.
* [14:33] Wut Burt: Nono, I'm almost typing and points are being made :)
* [14:34] Tillie Ariantho: I get PRETTY angy if people have control over MY client, so any spamming of any kind shouldn't tear down the usage on my side at all.
* [14:34] Rob Linden: Gigs: could you link to VWR-3176 VWR-3175 VWR-3174 as appropriate?
* [14:34] Squirrel Wood: Aside from sim crashing this is currently the most annoying type of griefer attack used
* [14:34] Wut Burt: But I am curious if it would be possible to theoretically exhaust heap eventually by sufficient perm requests, which would be silly :)
* [14:34] Rob Linden: (or someone)
* [14:34] Wyn Galbraith: I had to set myself busy to get enough of the windows closed to enter the report.
* [14:35] Gigs Taggart: rob those are all dupes
* [14:35] Rob Linden: also Gigs, were the patches rejected or just in limbo?
* [14:35] Seg Baphomet: There's a lot of patches in limbo.
* [14:35] Gigs Taggart: one sec
* [14:37] Rob Linden: so, if you all had to come up with the top 5 patches in limbo that shouldn't be, what would they be?
* [14:38] Kooky Jetaime: and how many patches are there roughly in limbo? does anyone have an educated guesstimate?
* [14:38] Michelle2 Zenovka: For me its the basic building/compiling issues i have trying to build a linux 64 bit client
* [14:38] Wyn Galbraith: Is someone's mike open?
* [14:39] Seg Baphomet: The "redmap dialog" patch.
* [14:39] Rob Linden: which numbers?
* [14:39] Seg Baphomet: The particle bugfixes.
* [14:39] Morgaine Dinova: Michelle2: do you have a way of building for 64-bit with sound? Or still the 32-bit fmod problem?
* [14:39] Seg Baphomet: I don't know the Jira IDs offhand.
* [14:39] Michelle2 Zenovka: I use Segs openal patch for sound
* [14:39] Michelle2 Zenovka: works a treat
* [14:39] Morgaine Dinova: Michelle2: super, I'll look for it
* [14:40] Michelle2 Zenovka: search sldev, don't think it ever hit JIRA
* [14:40] Seg Baphomet: Particle alpha has been broken for a loooooong time.
* [14:40] Morgaine Dinova: Ta
* [14:40] Seg Baphomet: I have a placeholder Jira for OpenAL. I should probably just attach the damn thing.
* [14:40] Whoops Babii: yes!
* [14:40] Rob Linden: Seg: please do
* [14:40] Morgaine Dinova: Please :-)
* [14:41] Whoops Babii: been using it for months
* [14:41] Seg Baphomet: Since I keep having to fight other fires. ;P
* [14:41] Michelle2 Zenovka: Morgaine, what distro are you on?
* [14:41] Morgaine Dinova: Gentoo amd64
* [14:42] Tillie Ariantho: Can anyone add 2-3 lines of code on save texture? ,)
* [14:42] Gigs Taggart: 
* [14:42] Gigs Taggart: there's where the two patches are
* [14:42] Tillie Ariantho: textures in SL have a name, but when you save them they are just "unnamed", that's ridiculous. .)
* [14:42] Michelle2 Zenovka: Just wondered, if you can run debs i offer build versions ready to roll
* [14:42] Tillie Ariantho: Why not just use the SL name when saving them...
* [14:43] Squirrel Wood: the sl name may eventually be incompatible?
* [14:43] Tillie Ariantho: I add agency logo and stuff to model photos a lot, and it is quite a work to rename all the photos ...
* [14:43] Seg Baphomet: If I can get logged into Jira I can attach it...
* [14:43] Tillie Ariantho: cant be THAT incompatible. .)
* [14:43] Michelle2 Zenovka: Speaking of which, i am making a push to get the viewer and missing libraries into debian. I already have functional packages for i386 and amd64 (powerpc has not been tested) If anyone is interested i am running a debian apt repository where you can just pull the debs or the deb sources
* [14:44] Rob Linden: wonders if jira just tipped over
* [14:44] Seg Baphomet: Jira of course will not respond at all right now. ;P
* [14:44] Tillie Ariantho: savefile->setname(mytools->cleanfilename(mytexture->getname()); or something. .)
* [14:44] Gigs Taggart: Rob: I guess sorta in limbo, Soft said they were reworking my patch to ignore requests from your own scripts, but it looks like they wanted to use some other more generic throttling code or something... I don't know
* [14:45] Gigs Taggart: Rob just adding a same owner check would be 1 line so it must have been the latter that's taking so long.
* [14:45] Seg Baphomet: Anyway, I'm uploading Fedora 8 packages to 
* [14:45] Gigs Taggart: but dale's patch should be usable as-is
* [14:45] Michelle2 Zenovka: Are you still missing xulrunner in Fedora 8
* [14:46] Seg Baphomet: Yeah, no xulrunner until F9.
* [14:47] Michelle2 Zenovka: oh the messy way for llmzolib then :-(, i am now using an autotools build for llmozlib with xulrunner and its *sweet* but could be adapted to pull a mozilla branch as an option
* [14:49] Whoops Babii: who do I need to talk to to get the Solaris pkgs on haxxed.com?
* [14:50] Rob Linden: Michelle2: any chance you could use CMake instead? we're actually getting much more serious in our consideration of moving to that
* [14:50] Seg Baphomet: Its my personal domain.
* [14:50] Tillie Ariantho: I'm leaving... work is waiting. Laters. :)
* [14:50] Brad Linden: the windlight branch just started using cmake internally
* [14:50] Morgaine Dinova: Cyu Tillie
* [14:50] Michelle2 Zenovka: There is no technical reason, other than i don't know cmake :-) i can have a look
* [14:51] Rob Linden: oh...really Brad. That's cool!
* [14:51] Seg Baphomet: Packages are only there temporarily until they're accepted into Fedora. :)
* [14:51] Michelle2 Zenovka: I can't host anyone either i have already stolen all the bandwidth from my work site
* [14:51] Whoops Babii: ah! makes sense. I need somewhere I can place my personal builds - I'll keep looking.
* [14:51] Michelle2 Zenovka: I'm running at 2gigs a month just on amd64 packages
* [14:52] Whoops Babii: guess it's blastwave then...
* [14:52] Seg Baphomet: My friend has a server on business class cable. No known bandwidth limits. :)
* [14:53] Seg Baphomet: We're capped at 100k/sec outgoing but no monthly transfer limit that I know of. :)
* [14:54] Whoops Babii: I'll try the blastwave path first, just alot of crap to deal with there.
* [14:54] Rob Linden: Michelle2: you mentioned you were using autotools for llmozlib. any chance of using cmake instead?
* [14:55] Michelle2 Zenovka: i can give it a go, autotools was simple, just a few lines and the magic happened for linux. I will look at cmake and see how it goes. Should pop a JIRA in against this to detail work etc
* [14:55] Rob Linden: (oh, missed your answer earlier)
* [14:56] Michelle2 Zenovka: Don't forget that my llmozlib is a standalone library though and can be kept indenpendly from the viewer
* [14:56] Rob Linden: cool. that's going to make it more likely we'd accept the patch
* [14:56] Rob Linden: since there'd be a better chance of getting it to work well on win32 and mac
* [14:56] Seg Baphomet: i686 secondlife RPM upload complete. :)
* [14:56] Michelle2 Zenovka: Well i tried xulrunner on win32 today but ran into compile issues early on
* [14:57] Rob Linden: (on win32, that is)
* [14:58] Michelle2 Zenovka: ok its well worth my effot, if i can get it patched in to your tree i can get it in debian much much more simply
* [14:58] Rob Linden: I'll give the dev the heads up we're considering it
* [14:58] Q Linden: gotta run, all, thanks
* [14:58] Morgaine Dinova: Cyu Q
* [14:59] Michelle2 Zenovka: Thanks, don't want to fo down a road for no reason :-)
* [14:59] Rob Linden: Callum Linden is the person who would make the final call on a patch like that, I'm guessing
* [14:59] Rob Linden: I should run, too
* [14:59] Rob Linden: thanks everyone.
* [14:59] Morgaine Dinova: Cyu Rob
* [14:59] Rob Linden: see you in two weeks
* [14:59] Michelle2 Zenovka: Cheers Rob
* [14:59] Wyn Galbraith: Byebye
* [15:00] Whoops Babii: later.
* [15:00] Dzonatas Sol: Take care... happy turkey days for those headed out now