Viewer Evolution User Group/Archive/2011-03-16

08:00 	Tonya Souther  	Hi, Oz.
08:01 	Ju  	hi Oz
  	Oz Linden  	Hi everybody
  	Nimh  	HI Oz
  	WolfPup Lowenhar  	shouts: Hello Jessica and welcome to Hippotropolis a new game of Zyngo Multi will be starting shortly.
  	translator Nimh20's Google Translator 	HI Oz
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  	morning oz ㋡
  	draconis.neurocam  	0.0
  	Oz Linden  	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_Evolution_User_Group
08:02 	Nimh  	Oz--I have something real quick to put out there
  	Jessica Lyon  	lol WolfPup
  	Oz Linden  	how quick is real quick?
  	Wolfpup  	sorry have @$$ette issues this morning
  	WolfPup Lowenhar  	shouts: sorry have @$$ette issues this morning
  	Oz Linden  	not many things are around here, has been my experience....
  	Nimh  	When a new user logs into SL on V2 the first time their MIC is on --so the speak buttion is pressed---
08:03 	  	So its loud etc. etc.
  	Oz Linden  	really?
  	Nimh  	CAn you change this debug setting to False?
  	  	PTTCurrentlyEnabled Use Push to Talk mode Boolean True No
  	Jonathan  	I brought that up too at the end of a scrum and Q said that was the desired behavior -- mic on for new users
  	Tonya Souther  	facepaws.
  	Nimh  	ok i tried
  	Ju  	ouch
  	Toy  	>.<
08:04 	Oz Linden  	well, if that's what Q said, then it's probably true
  	Tonya Souther  	That one sets the BS flag.
  	Nimh  	Yeah its great when all the NOOBS get Muted
  	  	makes perfect sense
  	Jessica Lyon  	cough...
  	Wolfpup  	Oz there is an issue in the drop from yesterday in basic mode
  	WolfPup Lowenhar  	shouts: Oz there is an issue in the drop from yesterday in basic mode
  	Jonathan  	Since we are adding a hint to the speak button maybe that decision can be revisited
  	Oz Linden  	I assume that there's an issue on that somewhere (or 12)
  	Nimh  	Excuse me Tanya?
  	  	What was that?
08:05 	Oz Linden  	put it on the agenda, WP
  	Tonya Souther  	that it's enabled by default as intended behavior. That can't be right.
  	  	Not saying you're BSing anyone.
  	Wolfpup  	oz it is more of a bug i think
  	WolfPup Lowenhar  	shouts: oz it is more of a bug i think
  	Oz Linden  	would someone look for an issue on that and add it to the end of the agenda, please?
  	Tonya Souther  	Or certainly at least a misfeature.
  	Jonathan  	wolfpup could you stop shouting?
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  	or at least unwanted behavior by the users
  	Oz Linden  	stop shouting, Wolfpup
08:06 	Nimh  	The intended Behavior is causesing all NOOBS to be Muted--Isnt' SL about communitacting
  	Wolfpup  	sorry loging issues after a crash this morning
  	Oz Linden  	ok ok - I get it
  	  	find an issue
  	Nimh  	thanks for your time on a small issue
  	Oz Linden  	VWR-25167
08:07 	JIRA-helper  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25167
VWR-25167 Attachment point values for parallel limbs have different values in avatar_lad.xml
  	draconis.neurocam  	just found this , it seems silly
  	  	they should be the same i would think no?
  	Robin Cornelius  	waves, sorry i'm late
  	Tonya Souther  	I've been wrangling with it since getting on SL...but wouldn't changing it require people to edit every attachment?
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  	new resident is fumeling around, pressing ont he keybaord etc, not knowing they are brodcasting sounds... other residents mute them, then the new resident figures out the sound is on and asks a question, noone heras them
  	Wolfpup  	hey robin hows the viewer
  	Robin Cornelius  	not using it yet, at work using radagast
08:08 	Wolfpup  	ok
  	Oz Linden  	so the issue is that the attachment points are not symmetric?
  	draconis.neurocam  	yes
  	Tonya Souther  	Or, worse, make things look different on people depending on which viewer they're using to look at them?
  	Nimh  	Thanks Tankmaster but i guess when you code all day you loose common sense
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  	or... new resident comes onto SL not knowning the mic is on, says something, others year, and new resident feels SL is invading their privacy by alywas having the mic open, which *may* though unlikely, cauese unwanted legal responce from the new resident
08:09 	Oz Linden  	seems odd, but I imagine that changing it would be far worse than leaving it alone
  	  	tank ... we've moved on ...
  	draconis.neurocam  	i thought the position was stored, so if it was changed it would only effect new content
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  	oh, lol, sorry :P
  	draconis.neurocam  	in the attachment
  	Tonya Souther  	I've had a complaint about the avatar mesh mapping ever since I got on SL, too, but fixing it would break existing content as well.
08:10 	draconis.neurocam  	the value change is tiny
  	  	but still worthy in my opinion
  	Oz Linden  	it's stored in the attachment if you edit the position (drag it) ... don't know if it's stored if you leave it on the default relative to the attachment point
  	draconis.neurocam  	well usually creators, have a default set, when they box it
  	Tonya Souther  	But is it stored as an absolute value or as an offset from the attchment point?
  	Ju  	tiny but certainly noticeable
08:12 	Tonya Souther  	If the latter, moving the attachment piont will move the attachment.
08:13 	Oz Linden  	from the experiment I just did, it looks like the position stored is the offset from the chosen attach point
  	Tonya Souther  	Then changing ti will break content.
  	Ju  	too bad
  	Robin Cornelius  	attachments are child objects and positions are stored as offsets from the base position
08:14 	Oz Linden  	in any event - I don't think that we can change those points... we'd break tons of existing stuff
  	Tonya Souther  	you'd have to have a flag day to change it without getting different results based on viewer.
08:15 	draconis.neurocam  	legacy weirdness is just part of sl then i guess
  	Ju  	thanks for trying drac :)
  	Oz Linden  	Some decisions need to be made right the first time.... and then lived with regardless
  	Wolfpup  	i know im currently working on one legacy bug
  	Oz Linden  	like which side of the road to drive on :-)
08:16 	Ima Mechanique  	oz, that's what my parents said
  	Oz Linden  	storm-809
  	JIRA-helper  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-809
STORM-809 Official Linux builds no longer built with c-ares support - causes big performance pauses
  	Tonya Souther  	Sweden changed sides of the road at modnight one New Year's Eve...
  	Nimh  	When are you all going to hire a new Search GSA person---No changes to GSA since 11/2010
  	  	?
08:17 	Oz Linden  	Yes, we know about this one....
  	  	nimh ... please stick to the agenda ... feel free to add items at the end
  	Nimh  	ok
08:18 	Oz Linden  	The repo for libcurl is public... if someone wants to provide a fix, it will get priority attention
08:19 	  	we do know about this one, and it's on the list of things to sort out as part of moving to vs2010
  	Discrete Dreamscape  	Would that mean submitting a new prebuilt package as a patch?
  	Oz Linden  	which we're trying very hard to wrap up asap
  	Robin Cornelius  	apart from the obvious, what needs doing? is it as simple as patching the configure options of that pacakge to be correct?
  	Oz Linden  	no, it would mean providing a patch against the repo that builds the prebuild
  	  	probably, Robin
  	Discrete Dreamscape  	Ah, that's easy then
08:20 	Oz Linden  	This is why we moved all the open dependencies out to bitbucket - so you could do this kind of issue
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	makes sense
  	Robin Cornelius  	let me cook a patch, should not take long at all
08:21 	  	Oz will such patches work on review board?
  	Oz Linden  	you should be able to assign that STORM issue to yourself Robin
  	  	I'd have to set up the repositories
  	Robin Cornelius  	ok unless you really want to, lets not do that right now, i believe its a one line change
  	Oz Linden  	I suppose I should do that, but I don't really want to spend the time to do all the ones no one is working on...
08:22 	  	I'll add 3p-libcurl though after we're done here.
  	  	let me know ... if it's more complicated then I'll set up the reviewboard
08:23 	Discrete Dreamscape  	I fixed it on my build with just a configure options changew
  	Robin Cornelius  	--non-blocking --c-ares or somthing off the top of my head
  	welcome trigger  	Leric777 Resident arriving
  	Oz Linden  	I'd like to make sure that it's correct for all the platforms, though
  	Robin Cornelius  	windows uses native threads for DNS resolver so its a non issue there
  	Discrete Dreamscape  	--enable-nonblocking --enable-threaded-resolver was what I added
08:24 	  	Mac experiences the same problem as Linux apparently
  	Robin Cornelius  	yea makes sense it would
08:25 	Tonya Souther  	I haven't seen it that I know of...
  	Oz Linden  	to test the prebuild you'll have to base your viewer build off of oz_linden/viewer-autobuild
  	  	welcome to the brave new world :-)
  	Discrete Dreamscape  	Woo!
08:26 	Oz Linden  	I really hope that we can get all that moved to viewer-development now - we were waiting for the 2.6 beta to be done, and I've been distracted by a lot of internal stuff
  	  	will be spending most of today on making a punch list of what remains to be done
08:27 	  	hopefully it won't be disruptive for too long
08:28 	  	which brings us to the end of the list... so what's our next topic?
  	Tonya Souther  	VWR-25062
  	JIRA-helper  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25062
VWR-25062 Add the ability to allow or deny domains that parcel owners want to play in the viewer's media and audio players
  	Oz Linden  	I'm going to build a viewer with that and get some review done, Tonya - will be in touch soon
  	Tonya Souther  	nods.
08:29 	Oz Linden  	whether or not to include it is fairly sure to set off a significant discussion :-)
  	Tonya Souther  	Go ahead and pick tip off that repository.
  	Jessica Lyon  	understatement ^
08:30 	Jonathan  	Where is that allow/deny list stored?
08:31 	Tonya Souther  	User settings.
  	Oz Linden  	locally?
  	Jessica Lyon  	Local yes
  	Jonathan  	would it make more sense to store it server-side?
  	Tonya Souther  	yes...hang on, looking for the filename.
  	Jonathan  	like the mute list is now?
  	Jessica Lyon  	if LL would make a place for it server side it would make sense
  	Tonya Souther  	yes, medialist.xml locally.
08:32 	Oz Linden  	if we take the change, I suppose storing it server side becomes an issue
  	Jessica Lyon  	Well, if you guys take it, and make room for it server side we'll be happy to make the change to utilize that.
08:33 	Jonathan  	then there is the issue of how many the server would store, lenths, etc
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  	42!
  	Tonya Souther  	That'd be something the TPV community woul happily accept.
08:34 	Toy  	COuld you just store md5 hashes in integer format to save space?
  	Tonya Souther  	not sure it would save any compared to a domain name.
  	Oz Linden  	I'll let you know if/when there's any decision on it, but I have not had a chance to seriously start the conversation yet
  	Toy  	In integer format, it's very short.
  	Oz Linden  	storage space really isn't an issue
08:35 	Toy  	Ok.
  	Oz Linden  	we add multiple terabytes/day to the storage for SL
  	Toy  	O.o
  	Oz Linden  	look around...
08:36 	Jessica Lyon  	lol
  	Oz Linden  	nimh... you had some other topic earlier?
08:37 	  	guess not... anyone else?
08:38 	  	oh... I've got one ....
  	Toy  	I am here the first time, so I might be behind on issues.
  	  	So ... any plans on bringing back the pie menu?
  	Oz Linden  	XMPP group chat is now officially live-for-testing on the aditi grid
  	Toy  	Yay :)
08:39 	Jonathan  	was that the secret project merging in oz?
  	Oz Linden  	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Chat_Systems
  	Tonya Souther  	yay!
  	Jessica Lyon  	All libs are available now for building Oz?
  	Oz Linden  	don't know....
  	  	let me look...
08:40 	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  	i was able to build the XMPP viewer a few weeks ago
  	Nimh  	Oh yes OZ
  	Jonathan  	I've been compiling it for over a month
  	Jessica Lyon  	Kadah, had said there was a missing Lib
  	Nimh  	Changing this debig value to False
  	Oz Linden  	no, it looks like libstrophe is still not posted
  	  	will bug them about that
  	Jessica Lyon  	right ok ty
  	Jonathan  	the strophe lib was missing for a long time but finally appeared
  	Oz Linden  	bug there is a Project viewer for it now
08:41 	  	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Alternate_Viewers#Second_Life_Project_Viewers
  	Nimh  	PTTCurrentlyEnabled Use Push to Talk mode Boolean True ----- <------- Changing that to False
08:42 	Oz Linden  	Find or create a VWR issue for that, please, Nimh and I'll look into why it was done that way
  	Nimh  	you got it
08:43 	Oz Linden  	To answer your question, Jonathan... no, XMPP was not the merge we were waiting for
  	  	it was the 2.6.0 beta candidate changes, which went in yesterday
08:44 	Discrete Dreamscape  	heads off for some sleep..
  	Jonathan  	I saw a ton of SOCIAL changesets go in
  	Oz Linden  	I believe Robin made a lot of contributions to that...
  	draconis.neurocam  	was the basic or skylight skin for v2 it seems
  	Oz Linden  	right
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  	some intl changes to, more translations are nice
08:45 	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	"skylight"?
  	Jessica Lyon  	you mean starlight?
  	Oz Linden  	a descendant of skylight, yes, but in the downloaded viewer rather than via the web
  	Jessica Lyon  	not heard of skylight o.0
  	Oz Linden  	it's being called "Basic Mode" now
08:46 	Jonathan  	Is this the right venue to tell us a little bit about it?
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	oh, the web viewer thingy?
  	Oz Linden  	there will be a blog post about it when we launch the beta
  	Nimh  	Will Windlight setting ever go server side?
  	Jessica Lyon  	yes, estate windlight.. any eta?
  	Oz Linden  	We have some people finishing up Windlight region settings
08:47 	Ju  	great news :)
  	Toy  	[08:38] Toy (toy.wylie): I am here the first time, so I might be behind on issues.
08:38 	  	So ... any plans on bringing back the pie menu?
08:47 	Oz Linden  	no
  	Toy  	>.<
  	Randomized Jigsaw  	lol\
  	Toy  	Thanks.
  	Jessica Lyon  	that's something we're going to have to do I think
08:48 	  	but requires writing it from scratch for lgpl
  	Oz Linden  	I don't know the full history of the pie menu discussions, really
  	Ju  	as an option, Jessica?
  	Toy  	Of course optionally.
  	  	Te pie menu is the hting that keeps me on V1.
  	Jessica Lyon  	of course, an option
08:49 	Ju  	good
  	Jessica Lyon  	we have a LOT of people obviously who want pie back, but not all.. we wouldn't force it on anyone.
  	Toy  	The context menu is slow, unpredictable and inaccurate. So no option for someone who is used to work fast, without looking at the options.
  	  	As Torley advertised years ago ... Muscle Memory.
08:50 	Ju  	mm :)
  	draconis.neurocam  	the context menu is far easier from a code standpoint i would think, standard ui functionality
08:51 	Toy  	The user doesn't care about code.
  	  	And pie menus are standard in 3D applications like Maya.
  	Oz Linden  	the real trick will be that some of the existing menus have too many choices to be done as pies
  	Jessica Lyon  	I've gotten used to the context menu, as have many. some however refuse to get used to it.
  	Toy  	REarrange them for the pie menu so they make sense.
  	Jessica Lyon  	Oz, yes.. that's going to be a challenge
  	Tonya Souther  	"Refuse" is too harsh a word. Many simply find pi menus far easier.
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	The rectangular context menus are easier to extend. One-level pie menus are cool, but mutli-level ones are a PITA.
  	Toy  	It's nmot refusal, its a question of efficiency.
08:52 	Jonathan  	a number of menus are dynamic, too, based on context
  	Arrehn  	I *can* use the context menu, but I believe that the pie menus are better UI overall... sa shame it was just removed. I just assumed it was because someone was lazy.
  	Toy  	If itr was about "easy" SL was text base :P
  	  	based*
  	  	Pie menu worked great in V1, so why is this suddenly a problem in V2?
  	Jessica Lyon  	well Pie menus are a pita code wise.
  	  	not nearly as scalable
  	Toy  	I agree.
  	Oz Linden  	I believe it was a much more complex issue than just laziness, but I wasn't here for it
08:53 	Jonathan  	I have not missed the pie menus as much as I thought I would
  	Ju  	it's really a personal thiing, some people like me do prefer context menus - not all brains work in the same way
  	Toy  	I did, sadly.
  	Jessica Lyon  	what Ju said. Thus why it has to be optional
  	Toy  	Therefore it must be an option.
  	  	Heh
08:54 	Jessica Lyon  	Default I think would still be context menu's, especially for V2 users migrating to Firestorm
  	Jonathan  	but, it also has taken me a long time to learn where to find things
  	Oz Linden  	Just so everyone is clear... Q and I were in full agreement on options... they are at best a neccisary evil
  	Jessica Lyon  	I think options are very important.. as long as defaults are chosen responsibly
08:55 	Ima Mechanique  	hey, welcome cummere, SL finally let you in ;-)
  	Toy  	nods at Jessica
  	  	Optiopns can be hidden to protect the user if needed.
  	Cummere Mayo  	two hours after failing to get the 2.6.1 build to work
  	Jessica Lyon  	Phoenix has a LOT of options.. we also take time to hold classese on those options to help educate users.
  	  	Something that is somewhat lacking on the LL side i'm afraid.
08:56 	Nimh  	So Oz when are we going to hear from Rod Humble about the the state of SL--ever?
  	Oz Linden  	I tried to run Phoenix and Imprudence yesterday - both messed up the video card on my test system
  	Nimh  	sorta like the state of the union
  	Jessica Lyon  	o.0
  	  	how so?
  	Oz Linden  	Have not put in a support request yet :-)
  	Arrehn  	I think the reason pie menu keeps coming up 1yr later is due to there never being any real discussion on it when it was removed. The silence was deafening.
  	Cummere Mayo  	o.O
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  	lol
  	Jessica Lyon  	lol Oz, you could and should!
  	Oz Linden  	color mapping went all to *!*
  	Toy  	This, Arrehn.
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  	thats... odd really
  	Nimh  	never i guess--the board of directors won't let him or what
  	Cummere Mayo  	thats wierd
08:57 	  	you sure you dont have a defective card on your test machine?
  	Tonya Souther  	BTW, anyone who's using my Snowstorm media filter patch, I just pushed an update to it that makes it a bit more useful.
  	draconis.neurocam  	was it an ati card?
  	Oz Linden  	have not launched Firestorm on that system yet
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  	what about V2?
  	Arrehn  	You might want to wait for Firestorm Preview 2 then.. less bugs ;)
08:58 	Toy  	preview #2 ❤
  	Oz Linden  	I didn't have time for debugging, so I didn't look, but I don't think so - if I recall, it's a fairly high end NVIDIA card.
  	  	v2 works
  	Jessica Lyon  	firestorm preview 2 is just around the corner btw.
  	  	I'll send you a copy once it's out Oz
  	Oz Linden  	I'll be watching
  	Cummere Mayo  	oooh do you have the latest set of drivers? if so roll back
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  	which do you recomend, mayo?
08:59 	Oz Linden  	I'm actually not going to make much effort to fix it... if it works, great... if it doesn't, I'll move on
  	  	it's a win7 system and I've just told it to apply whatever updates it wants to
09:00 	  	I'll write up a problem description tomorrow if I can and send it to both viewer teams... see who figures it out :-)
  	  	anyway... our time is up... thank you all for coming.
  	draconis.neurocam  	thanks oz
  	Oz Linden  	Put agenda items on for next time.
  	Jessica Lyon  	Thanks oz
09:01 	Ju  	thanks Oz!
  	Cummere Mayo  	ty oz