Open Source Meeting/2007-12-06

< Open Source Meeting
Open source meeting - Thursday, 2pm PT.
Teleport to the Linden Open Source Project headquarters.
== Agenda ==
* Please add items here
* Re the 64-bit Linux video issue raised a couple of meetings ago, if Liana managed to draw Tofu's attention to the three 32-bit gstreamer libs missing from the Linux Alpha Client download, I would be grateful for a report on possible future resolution. The issue has been raised various times on the SL forum, but without managing to attract official comment. 64-bit Linux users running the official client under 32-bit emulation will be unable to watch video unless this is addressed (or bypassed in some way), since their native 64-bit gstreamer libs cannot be linked, and 32-bit emul libs do not exist for gstreamer.
* Any progress with incorporating Seg's OpenAL patch?
* Once OpenAL has been merged, are there any known technical hurdles before LL could add a native x86_64 build to the list of official downloads?
* New login protocols and source for RC 6?
== Transcript ==
* [14:04] Rob Linden: Saijanai - the hardware upgrade on Tuesday was the ast thing I was aware of, but there may have been something else done
* [14:04] Rob Linden: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source_Meeting/Agenda
* [14:04] Saijanai Kuhn: go to the agenda, click the edit tab to the right oand above the section you want to add to.
* [14:04] Saijanai Kuhn: you must log in to edit
* [14:05] Rob Linden: (please add to the end)
* [14:05] Liana Linden: /back
* [14:05] Seg Baphomet: So do we have an agenda?
* [14:05] Squirrel Wood: a short one
* [14:05] Roxi Bingyi: Oh, you mean at the site. No time for that now. Oh well.
* [14:05] Dzonatas Sol: everyone beat me here this time =)
* [14:06] Rob Linden: Seg, we actually have one
* [14:06] Rob Linden: transcript will be posted....please consider that when speaking
* [14:06] Seg Baphomet: I'm throwing caution to the wind and declaring the OpenJPEG lossless decode bug nailed!
* [14:06] Rob Linden: w00t
* [14:06] Michelle2 Zenovka: nice!
* [14:06] Saijanai Kuhn: grats!
* [14:07] Rob Linden: First item: "Re the 64-bit Linux video issue raised a couple of meetings ago, if Liana managed to draw Tofu's attention to the three 32-bit gstreamer libs missing from the Linux Alpha Client download, I would be grateful for a report on possible future resolution. The issue has been raised various times on the SL forum, but without managing to attract official comment. 64-bit Linux users running the official client under 32-bit emulation will be unable to watch video unless this is addressed (or bypassed in some way), since their native 64-bit gstreamer libs cannot be linked, and 32-bit emul libs do not exist for gstreamer."
* [14:07] Liana Linden: Here's what I got back from Tofu Linden:
* [14:08] Liana Linden: 64-bit gstreamer explanation 
* [14:08] Liana Linden: and a gstreamer support doc https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Movie_System_GStreamer
* [14:09] Rob Linden: any further comment/discussion to have here?
* [14:09] Rob Linden: (on this topic)
* [14:11] Rob Linden: let's move on then
* [14:11] Rob Linden: "Any progress with incorporating Seg's OpenAL patch?"
* [14:11] Rob Linden: which it's a good thing Seg is here
* [14:12] Seg Baphomet: I've not got around to cleaning it up myself.
* [14:12] Rob Linden: first...does someone have a quick link to the issue in jira?
* [14:12] Rob Linden: Yup, that was going to be part of my answer. Seg did a lot of the hard work, but there's still more to do, that doesn't necessarily need to be done by Seg
* [14:12] Dzonatas Sol: ?
* [14:12] Seg Baphomet: Basically it needs to be selectable between OpenAL and fmod.
* [14:13] Seg Baphomet: Also it seems to crash if you don't have a sound card.
* [14:13] Dzonatas Sol: is waiting for it to come up
* [14:13] Rob Linden: yup, that's one, thanks Dz
* [14:14] Seg Baphomet: Also there's bogosity in the WAV writer.
* [14:14] Seg Baphomet: That's the only invasive part.
* [14:14] aliceinwire Bleac: hello everyone
* [14:14] Morgaine Dinova: 'Evening
* [14:14] Rob Linden: Seg: the wav writer problem is filed separately, right?
* [14:15] Seg Baphomet: No, but it probably should. :)
* [14:15] Rob Linden: I could have sworn there was somethign about that already,b ut maybe I'm just remembering a note you sent to sldev
* [14:15] Seg Baphomet: I've babbled about it before.
* [14:15] Rob Linden: regardless, it'd be very handy to have the issue in jira, and linked to this issue
* [14:16] Rob Linden: anyone else know the problem that Seg is talking about?
* [14:16] Squirrel Wood: On sounds and caching...
* [14:17] Dzonatas Sol: is that where radncom beeps and bops come from over time that don't seem like the original audio?
* [14:18] Seg Baphomet: The audio system is somewhat kludgy.
* [14:18] Squirrel Wood: Sound files are deleted from the cache when exiting the SL client application
* [14:18] Rob Linden: iirc, it's an fmod workaround that breaks openal
* [14:18] Squirrel Wood: Dale Glass was looking into this
* [14:18] Squirrel Wood: And as far as he told me he may eventually have identified a bug
* [14:18] Seg Baphomet: fmod workaround?
* [14:18] Squirrel Wood: that causes "inventory loss"
* [14:18] Squirrel Wood: the type that fixes itself through relogging
* [14:19] Rob Linden: sorry, I thought that was the wav writer issue you were talking about
* [14:19] Seg Baphomet: One at at time?
* [14:19] Rob Linden: is confused about when we switched topics
* [14:19] Seg Baphomet: Is there a question for me? :)
* [14:20] Dzonatas Sol: lol
* [14:20] Seg Baphomet: Squirrel's kinda going on a tangent.
* [14:20] Dzonatas Sol: i think the main question is if cwr-2662 should be linked to another jira?
* [14:20] Dzonatas Sol: *vwr
* [14:21] Rob Linden: the question for Seg (and anyone else) is if someone would be willing to file "bogosity in the WAV writer." as an issue in JIRA (with, of course, more specifics on what "bogosity" is)
* [14:21] Seg Baphomet: I seem to be the only one that knows about it?
* [14:21] Rob Linden: and then, as Dz said, link it to vwr-2662
* [14:21] Seg Baphomet: I'm kinda lost.
* [14:22] Michelle2 Zenovka: Seg is this where the wav files are written with incorrect header and therefor a corrupt?
* [14:22] Seg Baphomet: I should probably file it because I have a workaround.
* [14:22] Q Linden: and we're sure the problem is with the writer, not the reader?
* [14:22] Seg Baphomet: What happens is the wav files are written with the length field 8 bytes too long.
* [14:22] Seg Baphomet: fmod doesn't seem to care about that.
* [14:23] Seg Baphomet: But freealut rejects them.
* [14:24] Squirrel Wood: audacity and media players play them just fine though some wav files do have the loop flag set it seems
* [14:24] Squirrel Wood: which may be a result of this bug
* [14:24] Seg Baphomet: Yeah, lots of stuff seems to not care but freealut is picky apparently.
* [14:25] Michelle2 Zenovka: Is it just some wav files that are effected? would this be demonstrated by some sounds being ok but others just don't play
* [14:25] Q Linden: so again...given that you couldn't find the reason it was "wrong" ... are you sure it's not freealut that's wrong?
* [14:25] Seg Baphomet: It affects all of them.
* [14:26] Michelle2 Zenovka: AH ok, getting myself confused
* [14:26] Seg Baphomet: IIRC I looked at it with a hex editor.
* [14:26] Seg Baphomet: Went through the headers by hand.
* [14:27] Rob Linden: ok...at any rate, this is a discussion best had in JIRA, methinks
* [14:27] Seg Baphomet: But yeah basically I put in a hacky workaround and moved on to implementing OpenAL rather than dwelling on it. :)
* [14:28] Dzonatas Sol: quick question, should we focus new patches on windlight sources or the latest 1.18.5 branch?
* [14:29] Rob Linden: Dz: it's probably not a bad idea to focus new patches on Windlight, understanding that we don't yet have a fixed timeline for when that will go out
* [14:29] Rob Linden: next on the agenda: "Once OpenAL has been merged, are there any known technical hurdles before LL could add a native x86_64 build to the list of official downloads?"
* [14:29] Rob Linden: erm
* [14:30] aliceinwire Bleac: Fixed various XML errors related to the search feature, Windows & Linux only
* [14:30] Dzonatas Sol: this must be for linux
* [14:30] Soft Linden: :wq
* [14:30] Seg Baphomet: Is there really an audience for that?
* [14:31] Rob Linden: clearly, making sure that it compiles cleanly for 64 bit is useful, but having another supported installer is a lot of work
* [14:31] Seg Baphomet: Someone's a vi user? :)
* [14:31] Rob Linden: clearly
* [14:31] Soft Linden: wrong window, sorry
* [14:31] Rob Linden: thought Soft might have been making a nerd joke
* [14:31] Q Linden: and I took it for clever commentary
* [14:32] Morgaine Dinova: Tofy seems to have partially replied on that one too
* [14:32] Soft Linden: vivox would be the x64 blocker afaik
* [14:32] Rob Linden: yeah, that's probably true
* [14:32] Morgaine Dinova: Tofu*
* [14:32] aliceinwire Bleac: questo pu interessarti vision
* [14:33] Vision Raymaker: sera, hi 2 all
* [14:33] Gigs Taggart: vivox is the everything blocker :(
* [14:33] Rob Linden: anything else on this topic?
* [14:33] Soft Linden: I know we've asked for 64 bit linux vivox, but that's in line behind 32 bit linux finalizing
* [14:33] Seg Baphomet: Given it goes over sockets the closed part could remain 32bit.
* [14:34] Soft Linden: sure, some people run just the vivox daemon with wine right now. no hard linkage
* [14:34] Morgaine Dinova: Well currently we have x86_64 support through ia32 emulation without video streaming. So it would be no worse to have native x86_64 support with video streaming but without vivox.
* [14:35] Rob Linden: Tofu is a more definitive source on this than I am, so I'm going to defer to him
* [14:35] Soft Linden: Tofu or Sardonyx might best know if there's any reason we couldn't build both binaries as part of the make process, use the same download. that might be the best approach to minimize extra overhead for us
* [14:36] Soft Linden: I'd make a JIRA asking for that and get votes to prove people want it
* [14:36] Rob Linden: good idea, Soft
* [14:36] Morgaine Dinova: Neither alternative is great, but both would be helpful in different circumstances. And eventually there will have to be a 64-bit client anyway.
* [14:36] Rob Linden: k...next up: " * New login protocols and source for RC 6? "
* [14:36] Seg Baphomet: Win64 anyone? :)
* [14:36] Soft Linden: hopefully not any time soon if we fix our memory leaks :)
* [14:37] Michelle2 Zenovka: If you ship 32 and 64 bit you will also need all the mozilla stuff to thats staticly linked so thats huge in a single download
* [14:37] Saijanai Kuhn: Yeah, was hoping to have the new login protocol documented as soon as it was released, but...
* [14:37] Saijanai Kuhn: Tao wrote a little script to work with the login webpage
* [14:37] Saijanai Kuhn: 
* [14:38] Saijanai Kuhn: but the output goes into a black box
* [14:38] Rob Linden: I'd need to ping the release team on the source status. I may have to push the source myself
* [14:38] Soft Linden: I'm banging on the source exports in the background right now. Mac is buildable, fixing a Windows problem. Hope to have all 3 exportable/buildable by tonight
* [14:38] Rob Linden: I generally wait until they push a source tarball, and then I push svn. they have a better idea which branch/rev to use
* [14:39] Saijanai Kuhn: KK Someone said Donovan passed along a libsl patch for this. Would be nice if we were in the loop on that kind of thing to (AW Groupies)
* [14:39] Soft Linden: I *think* I got the last Linux problem, but have to wait until I can boot back to Linux to check
* [14:39] Michelle2 Zenovka: Have you done much else other than auth in his release?
* [14:39] Rob Linden: oh, cool, thanks Soft
* [14:40] Rob Linden: so the source we export I guess might be a slightly later rev as a result of Soft's work
* [14:40] Rob Linden: but, as a HUGE plus, will have been tested by Soft
* [14:40] Saijanai Kuhn: we should be more nimble than libsl on getting this stuff working because we code it in several different langauges to test language-neutrality of the docs
* [14:40] Seg Baphomet: Yay, tested!
* [14:41] aliceinwire Bleac: :)
* [14:42] Rob Linden: there was a long conversation about the login protocols at zero's office hour earlier today, so I'd encourage you to read that transcript once its posted (if it isn't already)
* [14:42] aliceinwire Mug: of strawberry v.2 : Hot strong coffee!!
* [14:42] Saijanai Kuhn: I was there Rob... and we have the transcript up. He's not too sure of the details either
* [14:42] aliceinwire Mug: of strawberry v.2 : Hot strong coffee!!
* [14:43] Saijanai Kuhn: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2007_Dec_06
* [14:44] Rob Linden: I'll encourage Tess and/or others to make a public appearance to talk more knowledgably about the subject
* [14:44] Saijanai Kuhn: basically, we can grab the output from he login webpage as it is passedon to the client, but have not a clue what the client does with it so we can't get to the next step
* [14:44] Morgaine Dinova: Rob: that would be excellent :-)
* [14:44] Kiosk: SL: Open Source General Info whispers: Thank you! Your items will be delivered to you soon!
* [14:45] Rob Linden: the biggest issue is just getting the source out there, which is what we already discussed
* [14:45] Kiosk: SL: Open Source Developer Info whispers: Thank you! Your items will be delivered to you soon!
* [14:46] Seg Baphomet: Is 1.18.6 out?
* [14:46] Rob Linden: that's the end of the posted agenda....anything from anyone else? Chel, feel free to chime in here now
* [14:46] Seg Baphomet: I'm not seeing source for it.
* [14:46] Soft Linden: 1.18.6RC0 is out, source soon
* [14:46] Rob Linden: Seg: that's what Soft is working on
* [14:46] Seg Baphomet: k
* [14:46] Chel Norfolk: thank you rob
* [14:46] Seg Baphomet: Does it fix OpenJPEG? :)
* [14:46] Gigs Taggart: new responsiveness section on www.sljirastats.com
* [14:46] Gigs Taggart: 
* [14:46] Chel Norfolk: I am working on sl5b music department and I am in need of licensing :))
* [14:46] Michelle2 Zenovka: Can anyone here compile windlight branch on linux? still cannot do a complete build
* [14:47] Chel Norfolk: and the best way to handle this yrs opening
* [14:47] Roxi Bingyi: Thank you Liana.
* [14:48] Roxi Bingyi: Hi, First I'd like to say what a wonderful job I think you all do.
* [14:48] Roxi Bingyi: It's mindboggling to me how you do it.
* [14:48] Roxi Bingyi: I am hosting an awards show for SL musicians
* [14:48] Roxi Bingyi: April 14th
* [14:48] Rob Linden: for background....I believe Chel is asking specifically about the "open source" part of SL5B
* [14:48] Roxi Bingyi: I am the former RL President of the Wisconsin Music Industry
* [14:48] Seg Baphomet: Thank you for helping us help you help us all!
* [14:49] Chel Norfolk: yes that is right rob
* [14:49] aliceinwire Bleac: :D
* [14:49] Soft Linden: seg++
* [14:49] Roxi Bingyi: I wonder if you might direct me to the right person.
* [14:49] Morgaine Dinova: WTB portals in SL ... ;-)
* [14:50] Roxi Bingyi: I would like to ask LL for a kind donation to the winners of some sort.
* [14:50] Seg Baphomet: Enrichment Center regulations require both hands to be empty before any cake can be served.
* [14:50] aliceinwire Bleac: :D
* [14:50] Roxi Bingyi: We will have 20 catgeories.
* [14:50] Roxi Bingyi: And 6-7 live performances.
* [14:50] Rob Linden: Roxi, is what you're talking about related to what Chel is talking about?
* [14:50] Roxi Bingyi: My RL PR firm will handle RL promo.
* [14:50] Saijanai Kuhn: OK, Juhurliman/eddy stryker is clarifying things for me on the libsl-dev irc
* [14:51] Chel Norfolk: no 2 different programs rob
* [14:51] Roxi Bingyi: Sorry. they are different. :)
* [14:51] Chel Norfolk: but I am in volved in both rob
* [14:51] Rob Linden: ok....can we only talk about one at a time?
* [14:51] Roxi Bingyi: Go for it Chel.
* [14:51] Soft Linden: Roxi, you might check out the SLDev group. That's good for event planning - that's not the same as this. This is for programming topics only.
* [14:51] Roxi Bingyi: Thank you soft. I'll do that.
* [14:52] aliceinwire Bleac: or metamusic
* [14:52] aliceinwire Bleac: group
* [14:52] Gigs Taggart: is completely confused now :)
* [14:52] Saijanai Kuhn: update:
* [14:52] Saijanai Kuhn: Saijanai_: So, the new login protocol is just like the old (for now) save you hand it the web_login_key as the password? [3:51pm
* [14:52] Rob Linden: is anyone here interested in working with Chel on the open source area of SL5B?
* [14:52] Roxi Bingyi: Yes, I am.
* [14:53] Liana Linden: Ah! By "open source area" you mean an open source kiosk or what not on the SL5B island?
* [14:54] Rob Linden: wants to get to Gigs' thing, so is hoping to connect Chel with someone here and move on
* [14:54] Chel Norfolk: I sorry..
* [14:54] Chel Norfolk: I am I'm Sorry! I am a little confuse w hat you are saying Liana
* [14:54] Gigs Taggart: hehe Chel this might be better on email
* [14:54] Liana Linden: Chel, why dont' you IM me.
* [14:54] Gigs Taggart: we are missing some key background
* [14:54] Chel Norfolk: ok
* [14:54] Roxi Bingyi: You must forgive us Rock Stars....:)
* [14:55] Vision Raymaker: can I say a thing?
* [14:55] Gigs Taggart: you just did :P
* [14:55] aliceinwire Bleac: :D
* [14:55] Rob Linden: back on Gigs' thing: 
* [14:55] Gigs Taggart: alright so those are the rolling 1 week window stats like rob sent to the list
* [14:55] Rob Linden: I think this is a really good start
* [14:55] Vision Raymaker: :D as italian developer and member of vulcano community we are trying to push on opensl
* [14:56] Rob Linden: is still trying to figure out the best way to quantify progress on closing JIRA tasks
* [14:56] Gigs Taggart: yeah it's a little tough
* [14:56] Gigs Taggart: unresolved/unreported is a key metric I think
* [14:56] Vision Raymaker: i ve posted on our about the subversion repository of LL client source code
* [14:56] Gigs Taggart: unimported rather!
* [14:56] Mm Alder: Rob: What do you think of the ageing report I suggested?
* [14:57] Vision Raymaker: we ld like to translate some pages on official wiki to help italians to collaborate
* [14:57] Gigs Taggart: Vision: there's a language template you can use
* [14:57] Vision Raymaker: there is some kind of coordination needed?
* [14:57] Gigs Taggart: vision: it puts links at the top to other language versions
* [14:57] Vision Raymaker: great...so no need to ask to do that?
* [14:58] Gigs Taggart: no
* [14:58] Gigs Taggart: just do it :P
* [14:58] Rob Linden: Mm...that might be the way to do it.
* [14:58] Gigs Taggart: strife made most of the templates
* [14:58] aliceinwire Bleac: :)
* [14:58] Vision Raymaker: just to be kind ^_^
* [14:58] Vision Raymaker: anyway i'm translating most of LSL wiki in italian already
* [14:58] Gigs Taggart: mm: you mean the date periods?
* [14:59] Vision Raymaker: probably best to have it on the official wiki
* [14:59] Mm Alder: Gigs: Yes, the ageing by week, month, year
* [14:59] Gigs Taggart: that could quickly grow to be a large amount of data
* [14:59] Gigs Taggart: what do you think about this rolling window?
* [15:00] Mm Alder: One week is too small a sample period
* [15:00] Mm Alder: I'd like to see month totals and year totals
* [15:00] Jason Swain: waves, "Thanks"
* [15:00] Gigs Taggart: I'm not sure I agree there, but it might be best to normalize the data by the number filed that week
* [15:00] Gigs Taggart: not sure on that though
* [15:00] Mm Alder: Still too small a sample period
* [15:00] aliceinwire Bleac: see you soon i gtg
* [15:01] aliceinwire Bleac: thanks everyone
* [15:01] Gigs Taggart: hmm
* [15:01] Rob Linden: I suspect that Mm's right about sample size, but I'm also trying to figure out something that feels actionable
* [15:01] Morgaine Dinova: See you alice
* [15:01] Mm Alder: Gigs: I didn't understand what you meant by too much data?
* [15:02] Gigs Taggart: mm if you make every calendar week into a data set you'll have a huge amount of data
* [15:02] Rob Linden: I'd like something that gives us relatively immediate feedback if we are doign worse/better
* [15:02] Mm Alder: Rob: but you need a baseline to compare to
* [15:03] Mm Alder: Gigs: Can you get state change info?
* [15:03] Gigs Taggart: no, not really
* [15:03] Gigs Taggart: just snapshots
* [15:03] Mm Alder: Ah, now I see the problem. I'll thik about it more.
* [15:04] Gigs Taggart: I can use persistant stores, but I'd rather not store every state change I detect :P
* [15:04] Gigs Taggart: for one, I may miss them
* [15:04] Gigs Taggart: the other thing is that it becomes a lot of data to manage
* [15:05] Gigs Taggart: also bugs getting moved, renumbered, etc
* [15:05] Mm Alder: Yes, I was planning on haveing state change info. Back to the drawing board.
* [15:06] Gigs Taggart: rob: I think the 1 week stats are going to be all over the place
* [15:06] Gigs Taggart: rob: I mean the 1 week old ones
* [15:07] Gigs Taggart: I guess that may reflect a lack of consistancy in addressing bugs quickly, so it may not be a flaw really
* [15:07] Gigs Taggart: hehe
* [15:07] Rob Linden: yeah.....
* [15:07] Dzonatas Sol: Thank you everybody for being here =)
* [15:07] Rob Linden: ultimately, what I'd really like to track is this:
* [15:07] Rob Linden: how many bug reports we're getting
* [15:08] Rob Linden: how well we're doing at dispatching them
* [15:08] Rob Linden: per week
* [15:08] Day Oh: Eeeh, all your nametags are gone
* [15:08] Liana Linden: For the sake of the record, here's we worked out in IM: Roxi will redirect her question about Linden sponsorship of an event to the PR department, and Chel will direct music licesning questions to Jesse Linden. She's also looking for technical support with setting up streaming audio, if anyone would like to help, please IM her.
* [15:08] Vision Raymaker: another question... is in program to let user create modifiy shader programs to enhance the graphical experience ?
* [15:08] Gigs Taggart: Day: there's a setting for that
* [15:08] Day Oh: Always
* [15:09] Gigs Taggart: Rob: I think I can add some more overview graphs for that... I'll have to think about it
* [15:09] Morgaine Dinova: Thanks Liana. And thanks for fielding Tofu's answer before I arrived. I got the links ;-)
* [15:09] Vision Raymaker: i think something like a new kind of script...to attach to a prim face
* [15:09] Rob Linden: yeah, I will too. this is a hard problem, and I'm glad you're working on it
* [15:09] Rob Linden: (Gigs, that is)
* [15:09] Gigs Taggart: thanks hehe
* [15:10] Rob Linden: ok....well, I'll be on irc.efnet.org #opensl