Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2014.05.13

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== List of Speakers ==
Inara Pey 	JB Hancroft 	Jenna Felton
Jonathan Yap 	Juris Amat 	Kennylex Luckless
Mona Eberhardt	Motor Loon 	Nalates Urriah
Oz Linden 	Qie Niangao 	Rex Cronon
Simon Linden 	Whirly Fizzle	Yuzuru Jewell
== Transcript ==
[12:05] Simon Linden: Hi Everyone
[12:05] Jenna Felton: hello Simon, Ron, Whirly
[12:05] Yuzuru Jewell: Hello, Ron.
[12:05] Inara Pey: Hi, Simon, Whirls
[12:05] Juris Amat: Hi Simon
[12:05] Simon Linden: Let's see ... the news is pretty light this week. There is a maintenance update to the server going into the Magnum RC channel this week
[12:07] Simon Linden: There's nothing changing that is visible externally
[12:07] Simon Linden: Baker's group ban stuff is inching forward ... I'm not sure of the release timing but it's definitely a lot closer
[12:08] Whirly Fizzle: Yay \o/
[12:08] Simon Linden: That's all the news I have ... so the table is open for questions or topics
[12:08] Mona Eberhardt: Is anyone looking at LSL control for normal and specular maps?
[12:09] Simon Linden: I am looking at it but not promising anything :P
[12:09] Jenna Felton: i dont need that urgently but i could need it later
[12:10] Simon Linden: We're trying to be really careful to understand how the server and viewers will react when stressed with a lot of material churn
[12:10] Mona Eberhardt: It'd be a great tool for content creators - and restricting the accepted frequency would deter griefers a fair bit.
[12:10] Object: Hello, Avatar!
[12:10] Jenna Felton: what i am more looking for, is LSL control of projectors :)
[12:10] Juris Amat: I hope this is koscher in terms of forum...I may be in the wrong place......I have a question about malware and target scripts...can they be stopped? Does anyone have an effective way of dealing with these attacks?
[12:10] JB Hancroft: What kind of attacks do you mean, specifically, Juris?
[12:10] Simon Linden: From what I can tell, fast-moving material-based animation will not work well ... that's likely to be throttled or blocked somehow
[12:10] Kennylex Luckless: Is it possible to do so you can control the normal strength in SL and with LSL?
[12:11] Mona Eberhardt: Throttling is a better option, the way I see it.
[12:11] Simon Linden: but supporting something like a hud or other control that could adjust the look of an object ... where it's done rarely ... is definitely possible
[12:12] Oz Linden: Internally, all the materials properties of a surface are stored together as a single object
[12:12] Mona Eberhardt: Come to think of it, animated materials could be great for simulating the effect of rain falling on a floor.
[12:12] Rex Cronon: imagine. lol cubes with materials...
[12:12] Simon Linden: We can get to your question in a minute, Juris
[12:13] Oz Linden: If we do anything to allow script control, it is most likely that what we would do is to make that object an asset and allow you to switch between them
[12:13] Simon Linden: Yes Mona ... and while that might look interesting, I doubt the script / update / viewer pipeline can handle that well
[12:13] Juris Amat: @JB ive been told they are malware on one estate with target specific scripts that are targeting another users estate. The attacks have been the subject of numerous abuse reports,
[12:13] Oz Linden: which would mean that you could prepare different materials that had the differences you want, but not that you'd have an LSL call to change a specific material property
[12:14] Simon Linden: I'm not sure about a small loop, however ... once a few materials were loaded, switching between them might be possible but not a real animation speed
[12:14] Simon Linden: not at*, I mean
[12:15] JB Hancroft: For animations - is there a way that we isolate changes to objects from being flushed back to whatever backend store (asset server?) ... if we know the changes are temporary, and part of an animation or other change sequence?
[12:16] Mona Eberhardt: Up to what speed would be acceptable, Simon?
[12:16] Nalates Urriah: If we animate a texture, do the materials animate with it?
[12:16] Mona Eberhardt: 0.3 times per second, for instance?
[12:17] Oz Linden: What do you mean by animating a texture, Nal?
[12:17] Oz Linden: (there's more than one way to skin that cat)
[12:17] Simon Linden: That kind of speed won't work well, Nal
[12:17] Nalates Urriah: We use animated textures now. Like a texture with 16 images 4x4 mages and then the obect switches between them.
[12:18] Nalates Urriah: Bit all are in one texture.
[12:18] JB Hancroft: 0.3 times per seconds... means once every 3.? seconds...
[12:18] Mona Eberhardt: It'd be 20 times per minute. Enough to fool a spectator's eyes into translating it as an animation.
[12:18] Oz Linden: in answer to JB... explicit control of caches is almost always a bad idea
[12:18] Mona Eberhardt: Oh, wait.
[12:18] Mona Eberhardt: I got it wrong.
[12:18] Mona Eberhardt: It should be 20 times per second.
[12:18] Mona Eberhardt: mea culpa.
[12:18] Jonathan Yap: Having 1 texture and sliding it around, display a piece at a time, that sounds like a good way to do it
[12:19] Mona Eberhardt: What Jonathan said sounds good.
[12:19] Kennylex Luckless: Non bling.
[12:19] Nalates Urriah: llSetTextureAnim()
[12:19] Simon Linden: The materials LSL support would include changing the offset, repeat and rotation values for the two maps, just like for regular textures
[12:20] Mona Eberhardt: And llSetNormalAnim() and LLSetSpecularAnim() could be added...
[12:20] Mona Eberhardt: yes
[12:20] Simon Linden: the update problem hits if you look at the way materials have been optimpzed between the server and viewer
[12:20] Nalates Urriah: Or if material parallels testure animation, that would go a long way
[12:20] Simon Linden: ... and how updates are sent
[12:20] Whirly Fizzle: Clicking the build tool spinners once a second for materials texture offsets/repeats causes resets
[12:20] Simon Linden: materials are referred to by a number ID ... so you get updates that say "this face has material 1234" on it
[12:20] Whirly Fizzle: It really doesn't like that
[12:21] Mona Eberhardt: You mean automatic synchronisation, Nal?
[12:21] Simon Linden: THe viewer, if it doesn't know what 1234 is, has to ask the server
[12:21] Simon Linden: Get the info, then possibly download the normal and specular textures
[12:21] Nalates Urriah: I suppose. If we slide a texture now material slides too. I just have never thought to try it with animation.
[12:21] Qie Niangao: At present, all the textures animate along with the diffuse.
[12:21] Juris Amat: Thanks Simon!
[12:21] Simon Linden: Now, if you change the offset ... you have a new material 34356
[12:21] Simon Linden: the viewer has to again find out waht that is
[12:22] JB Hancroft: Thanks, Simon - good to know.
[12:22] Simon Linden: but this time it already has the actual specular and normal maps, so no download there
[12:22] JB Hancroft: I'm assuming there is no way to PreLoad the material info, before it's set on a face?
[12:22] Simon Linden: and when you switch back to 1234, it has all the info and can draw it faster
[12:22] Nalates Urriah: Simon, does it have to refesh materials with llSetTextureAnim changes?
[12:22] Simon Linden: No, there isn't, JB
[12:22] Qie Niangao: (sorry, I meant to say all the maps animate with diffuse, when you set texture animation, in lockstep)
[12:23] Oz Linden: Qie .... do you mean that if the materials textures are the same size as the diffuse, that llSetTextureAnim already shifts them together?
[12:23] Qie Niangao: yes
[12:23] Simon Linden: Thats a nice linkage
[12:23] Oz Linden: that seems like it already does what people want, then
[12:23] Oz Linden: or at least many use cases
[12:23] Nalates Urriah: Seems like...
[12:23] Mona Eberhardt: By size, do you mean resolution, Qie?
[12:24] Qie Niangao: there are some effects, as in moving fluids, that would be fun if they were separable....
[12:24] Simon Linden: yes, it seems like you're just shifting the full set around and using a subset each time
[12:24] Qie Niangao: I've never noticed that they work differently with different texture sizes (resolutions?) ... not sure I've ever tried that.
[12:26] Seewo (siwo): I have a script question... if I may... why llSet(Link)Texture and llSet(Link)PrimitiveParams(Fast) with PRIM_TEXTURE once again do not allow use of non-fullperm textures if they are in object's content?
[12:27] JB Hancroft: Oz - about overriding cache policies with manual control... I'd like to talk about it more, sometime. It seems we could deliberately remove some work for the server load, if used properly.
[12:27] Simon Linden: I hope there will be something to play with eventually on the beta grid ... we'll probably want to experiment there and figure out what kind of limits are effective
[12:28] Oz Linden: The viewer does quite aggressive caching; anything you've seen recently will remain in cache (or should), without any controls
[12:28] Simon Linden: I'm not sure about that, Seewo ... I'd assume there was some permissions compliation there but I'm really unfamiliar with it. Is there a jira about i?
[12:28] Simon Linden: it?
[12:28] Oz Linden: That falls under the category of "don't solve a performance problem you have not yet demonstrated"
[12:29] JB Hancroft: ok - fair enough :)
[12:29] Seewo (siwo): I haven't searched jira for that to be honest :/
[12:30] Simon Linden: Speaking of caching. the recent viewer release added some improvements : http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Featured-News/Enjoy-Faster-Scene-Loading-with-Project-Interesting/ba-p/2712082
[12:30] Simon Linden: Going back to a region should load quicker now, for example
[12:30] Oz Linden: Qie ... it sounds to me as though it would benefit everyone if someone would do some experiments with how the current LLSetTextureAnim works today with materials textures, including different sizes etc. Maybe by creating some demo objects to bring here next week?
[12:32] Qie Niangao: Hehehe... well, that sounds good, Oz, but I'm not very reliable. :p (Here's an ancient bug that was fixed, about materials animation: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MATBUG-29)
[12:36] Simon Linden: That bug has some good textures linked to it for testing :)
[12:36] Rex Cronon: speaking of viewers. wich viewer version will no longer install on some win xp service packs?
[12:36] Rex Cronon: which*
[12:38] Whirly Fizzle: I don't think thats an any RC viewer yet is it? Next snowstorm RC I guess?
[12:39] Simon Linden: I'm clueless :P
[12:39] Mona Eberhardt: Have you guys dropped support for Windows 98SE?
[12:39] Whirly Fizzle: Try Firestorm 4.6.5 to see if you're blocked Rex. Im 99% sure its using the same blocking as LL will be
[12:39] Simon Linden: Nal's blog came up via Google and has far deeper thought about it than I've done: http://blog.nalates.net/2013/08/28/second-life-and-windows-xp/
[12:39] Oz Linden: right ... Snowstorm Winter Contributions
[12:40] Whirly Fizzle: No ones complained to FS about being blocked yet heh
[12:40] Oz Linden: I hope to get Winter Contributions out as a project viewer this week
[12:40] Whirly Fizzle: Cool
[12:40] Nalates Urriah: Did the last release have blocking?
[12:40] Nalates Urriah: FS release?
[12:40] Motor Loon: Guess I'll have to upgrade my Windows 95 installation...
[12:40] Rex Cronon: i don't use fs
[12:40] Whirly Fizzle: Oz, do you have stats on how many systems login on XP 32 bit without SP3 or XP 64bit without SP2?
[12:41] Oz Linden: no... we don't measure down to the SP level
[12:41] Whirly Fizzle: It did Nal, but there was a bug so it didn't actually block XP SP3. It does now
[12:41] Whirly Fizzle: Err SP2 sorry
[12:41] Nalates Urriah: Whew... I was wondering about that SP3
[12:41] Whirly Fizzle: Hmm how many on XP? Can you tell that?
[12:42] Oz Linden: Yes, but I have not looked at the numbers in a couple of months
[12:43] Oz Linden: hopefully they've been going down :-)
[12:43] Whirly Fizzle: Heh yeah
[12:46] Simon Linden: well, it's getting pretty quiet ... does anyone have a topic or feature-troll to bring up?
[12:46] Nalates Urriah: Not me...
[12:46] JB Hancroft: Great seeing everyone... I need to get back to work. take care :D
[12:46] Simon Linden: ok ... if not, let's call it a day then
[12:47] Rex Cronon: tc jb
[12:47] Simon Linden: or end the meeting, at least
[12:47] Nalates Urriah: OK Thanks Simon, Oz
[12:47] JB Hancroft: you also :)
[12:47] Whirly Fizzle: Juris had a question
[12:47] Simon Linden: sure, what's up?
[12:47] Simon Linden: we've been talking in IMs
[12:47] Seewo (siwo): I just would like know that texture thing but... well
[12:47] Whirly Fizzle: ahhh olkay
[12:48] Simon Linden scrolls back ... what was that, Seewo?
[12:48] Simon Linden: the animation?
[12:48] Seewo (siwo): non-full perm textures used in scripts
[12:49] Seewo (siwo): not so long ago it was possible... for few months
[12:50] Simon Linden: so you're saying, for example, if I try setting PRIM_TEXTURE to a non-full perm texture in the object, it ends up failing?
[12:50] Seewo (siwo): yep
[12:51] Simon Linden: it seems intuitively like something that was copy but no-trans should be ok
[12:51] Simon Linden: but no-copy ... probably not
[12:51] Juris Amat: Thank you everyone! Til next time.
[12:51] Rex Cronon: tc juris
[12:51] Whirly Fizzle: I have a Q actually. Someone asked me this the other day and I have no idea and I couldnt find anything on the wiki etc. What is classed as too high a streaming cost for mesh objects? Develop -> show info -> Show render info -> Edit on the mesh, then reading shows as "Region streaming cost".
[12:52] Whirly Fizzle: Err sorry, as Seloected streamiong cost
[12:52] Whirly Fizzle: grr can't type
[12:52] Whirly Fizzle: *selected streaming cost
[12:54] Nalates Urriah: I think the limit is in the vertex count. Don't know of a recommended max cost.
[12:54] Simon Linden: that "streaming cost" is one of the factors that goes into the magic formula for prim cost ... I think that limit would lie in there. Where are they seeing it called "too high" ?
[12:55] Whirly Fizzle: They saw a mesh plane that had a 7k selection streaming cost and they were curious if there was a limit. They were checking their own uploaded meshes and wanted to know a what point the streaming cost would be classed as "bad" because its too high
[12:56] Simon Linden: that's a really fuzzy issue, I think.
[12:56] Seewo (siwo): so yep... if it is not fullperm, script doesn't like it :)
[12:57] Inara Pey: Ciao, all. RL calls.
[12:57] Rex Cronon: tc inara
[12:58] Qie Niangao: Thanks Simon, Oz, Kelly, all... have fun!
[12:58] Simon Linden: are you getting script error messages there, Seewo?
[12:58] Seewo (siwo): Object: Texture not transferable.
Object: Could not find texture 'window 01'.
Object: Texture not copiable.
Object: Could not find texture 'commonseam'.
[12:59] Rex Cronon: tc qie
[12:59] Mona Eberhardt: Bye all.
[12:59] Rex Cronon: tc mona
[12:59] Whirly Fizzle: Siwo, is this your issue? https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-5765
[13:00] Kennylex Luckless: It was Men on Ice here, Sweden vs Norway, so has some a transcript?
[13:00] Rex Cronon: yes kennylex
[13:00] Rex Cronon: click the box
[13:00] Kennylex Luckless: nice :-)
[13:01] Rex Cronon: :)
[13:01] Seewo (siwo): it seems to be it
[13:02] Jenna Felton: i also have to go. Have a nice time and a great week! :) see you next time
[13:02] Rex Cronon: tc jenna
[13:02] Simon Linden: the discussion at the bottom is interesting ... in a nutshell, it's really hard to get this right without opening a permissions exploit
[13:02] Oz Linden: bye all
[13:02] Yuzuru Jewell: Thank you, Simon and Oz and Kelly.
[13:03] Simon Linden: Thanks everyone for coming today
Simulator_User_Group
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