User Experience Interest Group/Transcripts/2008-11-27

User Experience Interest Group Discussion for November 28, 2008. Topic: Building.
[15:08]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Today's topic is Building -- tools, usability issues, and so forth. McCabe, care to start us off?
[15:08]	Charlette Proto: 	sure go ahead
[15:08]	McCabe Maxsted: 	sure thing (and congrats charlette)
[15:08]	Charlotte Bartlett: 	Hey Dizzy
[15:08]	Aimee Trescothick: 	lo Dizzy :)
[15:08]	Dizzy Banjo: 	hi !
[15:09]	Charlette Proto: 	thanks McCabe
[15:09]	Jacek Antonelli waves to Dizzy. Hiya! We're just getting started 	Jacek Antonelli waves to Dizzy. Hiya! We're just getting started
[15:09]	Charlotte Bartlett: 	I kind of gatecrashed - but in a nice way hehe
[15:09]	McCabe Maxsted: 	okay. Now don't know how much building everyone's done but the tools, IMHO, are a pertty big usabilty mess. The question I posed last week was, if you could redo the building tools from scratch, what would they look like, and how would they be better/simpler to use?
[15:09]	McCabe Maxsted: 	welcome dizzy :)
[15:10]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Hmm... so that's why he said "take a good look at SketchUp"...
[15:10]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I'd like to see more 3D widgets for manipulating various object attributes
[15:10]	Charlette Proto: 	my pet problem with building tool besides custo individualised defaults is the lack of transform mechanisms, eg any knid of symetry
[15:10]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Twist, cut, and so forth
[15:10]	Aimee Trescothick: 	mm, symmetry is a good point
[15:11]	McCabe Maxsted: 	like, a visual icon that you can twist in the ui that twists the prim inworld?
[15:11]	Charlette Proto: 	widgets could cover my gripe
[15:11]	Aimee Trescothick: 	grab the prim and twist it
[15:11]	Geneko Nemeth: 	A visual icon *in world on the prim* that twists the prim in-world.
[15:11]	Jacek Antonelli: 	More like a 3D widget that you twist
[15:11]	McCabe Maxsted: 	how so charlette?
[15:11]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Hi StarSong!
[15:11]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Similar to the move/rotate/scale widgets
[15:11]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hiya StarSong :)
[15:11]	StarSong Bright: 	hi all
[15:11]	Charlette Proto: 	translations, rotations reflections things like that (linked objects etc)
[15:12]	Charlette Proto: 	precisely
[15:12]	McCabe Maxsted waves to starsong. We're talking/griping about improving the building tools :) 	McCabe Maxsted waves to starsong. We're talking/griping about improving the building tools :)
[15:12]	StarSong Bright: 	plenty there to gripe about
[15:12]	StarSong Bright: 	hmm nothing is rezzing for me yet hope i am not standing on anybdy
[15:12]	Aimee Trescothick: 	similarly for cuts etc. drag the cut point around
[15:12]	Patchouli Woollahra: 	but also plenty to celebrate...
[15:12]	Dizzy Banjo: 	Hai Patchi
[15:12]	Patchouli Woollahra: 	We all stand on each other's shoulders so regularly.
[15:12]	McCabe Maxsted: 	what's your biggest gripe?
[15:12]	Dizzy Banjo: 	:)
[15:12]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Maya has 3D widgets for a lot of different things. For example, the cut tool might show two handles placed on a circle, and you move them around the circle like slicing a pie
[15:13]	StarSong Bright: 	smiles, thats suppor theheh
[15:13]	Patchouli Woollahra: 	Pie.
[15:13]	Jacek Antonelli: 	(Mmmm pie)
[15:13]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Hi Patchouli!
[15:13]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hehe
[15:13]	Patchouli Woollahra just bought a pie hat. 	Patchouli Woollahra just bought a pie hat.
[15:13]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hi Patchi :)
[15:13]	Patchouli Woollahra: 	wewt wewt.
[15:13]	Patchouli Woollahra has Imprudence on her PC, waiting for it with sound. 	Patchouli Woollahra has Imprudence on her PC, waiting for it with sound.
[15:13]	Charlette Proto: 	also boolean operations (not so easy) would be the greates improvement in my eyes
[15:13]	Geneko Nemeth: 	你好～
[15:13]	Patchouli Woollahra: 	Booleans in realtime are tricky.
[15:14]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Booleans hmm, I don't really think that is necessary.
[15:14]	Aimee Trescothick: 	mm, that's more a prim rendering issue
[15:14]	Patchouli Woollahra: 	it's all well and fine to do Unions, but the others are trickier...
[15:14]	Charlette Proto: 	yes I realise that but it would make for so many possibilities
[15:14]	Patchouli Woollahra: 	Swiss Cheese in SL. Mmm.
[15:14]	Charlotte Bartlett: 	Is the aim to make the tools comparable with Cinema 4D/Maya etc etc - or just to improve i.e. the mouse function with key strokes etc? Not sure of the scope sorry :)
[15:14]	Aimee Trescothick: 	oh absolutely :D
[15:14]	McCabe Maxsted has never used maya 	McCabe Maxsted has never used maya
[15:14]	Patchouli Woollahra: 	a lot of those tools are enabled by the final target they're aimed at.
[15:14]	Geneko Nemeth doesn't understand 3D modelling 	Geneko Nemeth doesn't understand 3D modelling
[15:14]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Probably not to the complexity level of those tools
[15:15]	Charlette Proto: 	one could also consider generating sculptie maps from linked objects
[15:15]	Patchouli Woollahra: 	you'll find that if CGI is pre-rendered, you can get away with more intensive stunts.
[15:15]	StarSong Bright: 	i do NOT understand why there arent more basic primatives, like octagons, i mean, you see cylindars look like that before they go round, the shape MUST be in there.. that HAS to be more efficient than a sculpty
[15:15]	Patchouli Woollahra: 	sure, let's drive our residents loopy.
[15:15]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I would like to see all properties manipulatable in-world like twists and path cuts while still supporting direct input.
[15:15]	Jacek Antonelli: 	One very common request has been snap / align tools. Align on X axis, for example. Or snap this prim edge to that prim edge.
[15:16]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Oh yeah!
[15:16]	Patchouli Woollahra: 	PrimDocker works, but it costs money.
[15:16]	StarSong Bright: 	oh i bitch about that every time i build
[15:16]	StarSong Bright: 	no, it doesnt
[15:16]	StarSong Bright: 	i mean it does, but.. its a major PITA
[15:16]	McCabe Maxsted nods. I picked up a copy of primdocker. It was a real pain to use. How would that work in the ui, do you think? 	McCabe Maxsted nods. I picked up a copy of primdocker. It was a real pain to use. How would that work in the ui, do you think?
[15:16]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Doesn't work?
[15:16]	Patchouli Woollahra: 	and it would run faster with Mono compilation, but for the life of me, I have NOT been able to get that to happen.
[15:16]	StarSong Bright: 	all those scripts sitting around make me nervous, and i ALWAYS manage to need to change somethign AFTER i have remvoed the scripts
[15:16]	StarSong Bright: 	oh it does except for ME hehehe
[15:16]	Aimee Trescothick: 	and dropping scripts in anything is a pain
[15:16]	Aimee Trescothick: 	yeah
[15:17]	Patchouli Woollahra: 	so keep a copy of it before removing scripts?
[15:17]	Dizzy Banjo wants a Spore style in world handle based sculpty creator for simple organic shapes 	Dizzy Banjo wants a Spore style in world handle based sculpty creator for simple organic shapes
[15:17]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Too much lag in the final product.
[15:17]	Patchouli Woollahra: 	mmm... Spore.
[15:17]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Having those tools integrated in the viewer would definitely improve usability over the LSL-based ones
[15:17]	StarSong Bright: 	eh, it just screws with my sensibiiliteis that i must use a script to do something shoudl just be built IN!
[15:17]	Charlette Proto: 	yes using scripts to build with has a lot of drawbacks
[15:17]	Jacek Antonelli: 	In terms of execution speed and convenience
[15:17]	McCabe Maxsted: 	yeah, same here
[15:17]	Patchouli Woollahra suddenly turns into a fruit-celled organism and starts eating passing smaller cells. 	Patchouli Woollahra suddenly turns into a fruit-celled organism and starts eating passing smaller cells.
[15:17]	Dizzy Banjo: 	lol
[15:18]	Dizzy Banjo: 	even basic arrays would be good
[15:18]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe
[15:18]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehehe, Spore. I play Spore these days. Um, a lot. >_<
[15:18]	McCabe Maxsted: 	says the sperson who made a spore turkey ;)
[15:18]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I would also like to see the functionality to manipulate textures directly.
[15:18]	Aimee Trescothick: 	and you can't align to a no-mod object if you need scripts in stuff
[15:18]	StarSong Bright: 	i dont trust scripts now, since i was tyring to back up a ginormouss and i do mean huge project in a building rezzer and i accidentally clicked the kill button instead of freeze
[15:18]	Patchouli Woollahra: 	speak for yourself, I made a Turducken.
[15:18]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Aaa! It's a jelly monster!
[15:18]	Dizzy Banjo: 	lol
[15:18]	StarSong Bright: 	and teh whole thing (which was NOT backed up becasue that was what i was tyring to do) went poof
[15:18]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Oh dear, StarSong :(
[15:18]	Dizzy Banjo: 	lmao Patch
[15:18]	McCabe Maxsted: 	ouch
[15:18]	Charlette Proto: 	yes moving/scaling textures by hand would be very handy
[15:18]	StarSong Bright: 	pretty sure my neighbors for blocks around think my husband beats me
[15:19]	Charlotte Bartlett: 	Our builds on the pro side are all 3D models first - my only improvement suggestion - as the SL tools unless we are getting into Polygons, aren't really going to compete. But the one thing I like about SL tools are they are acessible to people learning to build here - whatever improvements go in - I think the simplicity has to remain too?
[15:19]	McCabe Maxsted: 	how do you guys normally align textures and such? by hand or do maths?
[15:19]	Patchouli Woollahra: 	it's important to maintain that illusion. makes benefits at divorce time easier to finagle.
[15:19]	Charlette Proto: 	Patchouli that is a very spammy avatar
[15:19]	Patchouli Woollahra: 	it is?
[15:19]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Besides... every model starts from primitives.
[15:19]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Not really.
[15:19]	Patchouli Woollahra: 	my bad.
[15:19]	StarSong Bright: 	lol patchouli
[15:20]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hrmm, texture alignment is a pain
[15:20]	Aimee Trescothick: 	depends what I'm doing, whether I do the maths or by eye
[15:20]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Patchouli's avatar is 432, and the highest here is 3867
[15:20]	Charlotte Bartlett: 	I use Jextone - a script based tool, I render the texture with 3D Tools first then import and overlay
[15:20]	Patchouli Woollahra uses a texture calculator and multitexture. 	Patchouli Woollahra uses a texture calculator and multitexture.
[15:20]	Geneko Nemeth: 	ARC isnt' really a good indicator however...
[15:20]	Charlotte Bartlett: 	Does anybody else use Jextone?
[15:20]	Charlette Proto: 	the numerical texture control is very clumsy in my eyese and hard relative to the size of the texture used
[15:20]	StarSong Bright: 	i never used math to begin but now i am really methodical about it, otherwise i go nuts, even then there are a couple zeros we cant see, that can still cause "ants" at the edges
[15:20]	Patchouli Woollahra: 	jextone? URL?
[15:20]	Charlotte Bartlett: 	Two secs - it's an inworld tool
[15:20]	StarSong Bright: 	i have never heard of jextone
[15:21]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I guess there are (at least) two aspects of texture alignment. One is making the prim face display a specific part -- say, the top left quarter of the texture. The other is making the textures on multiple adjacent prims line up with each other
[15:21]	Charlotte Bartlett: 	script drop to prim - put your baked texture in hud - align over multiple prims
[15:21]	McCabe Maxsted: 	oooh, those "ants" are a personal pet peeve
[15:21]	Patchouli Woollahra: 	the trick is to texture in a way that the ants appear in parts that are hard to see or impossible to see...
[15:21]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Ants?
[15:21]	Charlette Proto: 	sounds neat but yet another script based tool
[15:21]	Patchouli Woollahra: 	if the UV space is non-negotiable, start hiding the ants in the parts that aren't seen.
[15:21]	McCabe Maxsted: 	the little sparklies at joints
[15:21]	StarSong Bright: 	ants, the annoying little wiggly lines at the edges of prims
[15:21]	Charlotte Bartlett: 	Jextone helps with that to some degree - is that jira still out there on ant cracks? - 0001 mathmatically error in prim alignment.
[15:22]	McCabe Maxsted: 	yeah, it's still open as far as I know
[15:22]	Patchouli Woollahra: 	it's real frustrating, yeah.
[15:22]	StarSong Bright: 	it drives me spare.. and jsut when you get it fixed, you get drift or something
[15:22]	StarSong Bright yanks hair 	StarSong Bright yanks hair
[15:22]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Ah
[15:22]	McCabe Maxsted waves to dawn 	McCabe Maxsted waves to dawn
[15:22]	Charlette Proto: 	antialiasing of edges would help the ants, but chamfering is the only real answer
[15:22]	Dawnuchiha Nakamori: 	hi
[15:23]	Charlotte Bartlett: 	I managed to import a full build today from Cinema 4D no ants - which was good.
[15:23]	StarSong Bright: 	oh cool
[15:23]	McCabe Maxsted: 	chamfering?
[15:23]	Charlette Proto: 	chmafering would give a lot of design opportunities too
[15:23]	Charlotte Bartlett: 	The Jextone chap is 10KHz Tone
[15:23]	Charlette Proto: 	chamfering = blunt and round edges
[15:24]	StarSong Bright: 	oh theres another prim thing i dont get, why we cant have round edged cubes
[15:24]	Charlette Proto: 	like RL objects abways have some chamfering in them
[15:24]	Charlotte Bartlett: 	How can they do that with primatives though? Wouldn't they need to move to Polygon model to create? I am a Noob on primatives
[15:24]	Geneko Nemeth: 	It costs more polygons?
[15:24]	StarSong Bright: 	again, the linden answer is a sculpty
[15:24]	Charlette Proto: 	SL objects have infinately sharp edges unlike RL
[15:24]	Patchouli Woollahra: 	Sculpty is the new Shark Jump.
[15:24]	StarSong Bright: 	true but it could probably still be handed better than a sculpty... but i have never done the math.. so idk
[15:24]	Charlette Proto: 	sculpties are a joke (single texture)
[15:25]	Patchouli Woollahra: 	In fact, it has been used to create jumping sharks.
[15:25]	Charlotte Bartlett: 	The thing is is this an interface issue - or the fact that all the things pro developers would really want to require Polygons?
[15:25]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehe Patchi
[15:25]	StarSong Bright: 	AND there is that bug, so that the textures of objects load before the sculpty maps... unless they fixed it when i wasnt looking
[15:25]	Charlette Proto: 	and limited to the amount of triangles one can use
[15:25]	Geneko Nemeth: 	It's not an interface issue.
[15:25]	Patchouli Woollahra: 	it's a storage and transmission issue.
[15:25]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Neither.
[15:25]	Charlette Proto: 	plus sculpties look like balls before they rez
[15:25]	McCabe Maxsted: 	so what would you say is the thing you hate most about building?
[15:26]	Charlotte Bartlett: 	using SL?
[15:26]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Everyone?
[15:26]	Charlotte Bartlett: 	lol (Joking)
[15:26]	McCabe Maxsted: 	in SL™ yeah
[15:26]	Patchouli Woollahra: 	any changes made to datatypes or handling of data in SL exponentially impact the system.
[15:26]	Patchouli Woollahra: 	McCabe: well, the lack of detail per prim.
[15:26]	Patchouli Woollahra: 	it tends to encourage minimalism and other low-detail forms of architecture and furniture.
[15:26]	Patchouli Woollahra: 	I only go mad on detail with avatars.
[15:26]	Charlette Proto: 	SL is good if you haven't sear real 3D tools before otherwise a total joke
[15:26]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Lack of alignment tools and direct .manipulation on prims
[15:26]	Charlotte Bartlett: 	I just don't think SL is a useable building tool - unless they move to something mental like Cry Engine and normal 3D development - it's never going to deliver - I think in a way it should almost be made simpler - remove some of the noise.
[15:27]	Patchouli Woollahra: 	There are actually buttons and capacitators on this avatar that you don't see.
[15:27]	StarSong Bright: 	yes i am with geneko
[15:27]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I don't build, though.
[15:27]	Charlette Proto: 	my other point in building is the lack of plan and elevation tools with snap to grid
[15:27]	Patchouli Woollahra: 	I saved 20% on my insurance by switching over to Geneko!
[15:27]	McCabe Maxsted: 	cut out all the spinners and such, make it like spore
[15:27]	Geneko Nemeth: 	You sure it's not Ginko?
[15:27]	McCabe Maxsted grins 	McCabe Maxsted grins
[15:27]	Charlette Proto: 	perspective view is not practical for aligning things in the world
[15:27]	Patchouli Woollahra: 	lolz.
[15:28]	Patchouli Woollahra: 	Charlette: my physics teacher and my 3d instructor kept saying that.
[15:28]	StarSong Bright: 	i want camera presets
[15:28]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Orthographic (non-perspectve) would help. Top, side, front views with no perspective applied.
[15:28]	StarSong Bright: 	so that i can set up some defulat locations in my build and snap my cam to each one
[15:28]	StarSong Bright: 	yes i have gotten pretty good with my camera, can get most places in my sim these days lol.. but i shouldnt have to work that hard to see the far side of my bild
[15:29]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe I'm not a physics teacher but would benefit from plan, elevation and persp/ortho views at the same time or switching
[15:29]	Geneko Nemeth uses Ctrl+Alt all the way. 	Geneko Nemeth uses Ctrl+Alt all the way.
[15:29]	McCabe Maxsted: 	would be cool to rez a "camera prim"... touch it and it switches your camera view around to a specific point in your build
[15:29]	Aimee Trescothick: 	there are HUDs to do cam position presets
[15:29]	StarSong Bright: 	of even if you just had a few buttons you could set, like in poser
[15:29]	Aimee Trescothick: 	haven't tried any though
[15:30]	StarSong Bright: 	i dont know if any of you use it but basically you can set your camera somewhere and click on one of 9 or 12 little buttons and the camera position is stored
[15:30]	Charlette Proto: 	multiple camera object switching would be ince but plan and elevation are more important in my view
[15:30]	StarSong Bright: 	click it again later and camera goes back there automatically
[15:30]	Charlette Proto: 	I use two avies to do coplex design jobs
[15:30]	McCabe Maxsted: 	oh, nice
[15:31]	McCabe Maxsted wants one :D 	McCabe Maxsted wants one :D
[15:31]	Charlette Proto: 	select the camera object and you view from that point, would be good
[15:31]	Patchouli Woollahra: 	StarSong... hmmm... I think I might have ideas about doing that... with a scripted object :(
[15:31]	StarSong Bright: 	an that brings us to permissions then, you get more than one avatar working with a scripted object and it always leads to bad thigns
[15:31]	Patchouli Woollahra: 	the problem is that LSL limits your ability to shift the camera.
[15:31]	Charlotte Bartlett: 	If you want granular improvements (a) Give me Jextone and Shapemaker as a menu (b) edit undo in terms of any action not just building (c) Improve Linkset interaction with less limitations (d) make packing up builds into rez boxes Menu based grab and click build to rez box level (e) offline build and upload of build (technically you can do that now) (f) Improve Snap and Grid with logical prim glue (g) Improve the interface to mirror SketchUp. - sorry lol thought I would list for ease.
[15:31]	StarSong Bright: 	(another reason i dont like to have to use scripted building tools, had bad expereinces with that as well)
[15:32]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Great list, Charlotte
[15:32]	StarSong Bright: 	nods, and how about an UNDO for freaking textures? anybody else notice the complete lack of undo once a texture is applied?
[15:32]	Charlette Proto: 	mirroring Sketchup may not be the best way since real people use Maya
[15:32]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Ooof, yes, I wish there was undo for textures :-/
[15:32]	Dizzy Banjo: 	yeah thats all good stuff
[15:32]	Geneko Nemeth: 	But Second Life is more like SkectuUp than Maya...
[15:33]	StarSong Bright: 	i ruined a very expensive chandelier when repapering my walls.. grrrrr... no save
[15:33]	Charlotte Bartlett: 	yes but that goes back to my point originally
[15:33]	McCabe Maxsted has longed for undo textures for ages.... and a history would be even better 	McCabe Maxsted has longed for undo textures for ages.... and a history would be even better
[15:33]	Patchouli Woollahra: 	a history is stuff that takes up space.
[15:33]	StarSong Bright: 	but it would create overhead for the client i think, the history
[15:33]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Client side space.
[15:33]	Patchouli Woollahra: 	I'm not holding out hope for LL to fix those issues for a whgile :(
[15:33]	StarSong Bright: 	still, it would be nice
[15:33]	Charlotte Bartlett: 	real people use Maya and don't really deploy to SL - SL isn't a platform of choice for pro 3D development we prefer Cry Engine stuff - so it has to be usable to Bob down the street who finds the Build menu for the first time and becomes the next Scope Cleaver in a year.
[15:33]	Charlette Proto: 	yes true but very few people use Sketchup and it doesn't offer many features yet
[15:34]	Dizzy Banjo: 	somehow.. make all the colour systems in SL the same
[15:34]	StarSong Bright: 	anybody here use mac?
[15:34]	Aimee Trescothick: 	<-- Mac
[15:34]	Charlotte Bartlett: 	Exactly my point - I think make it simpler with *less* noise.
[15:34]	Geneko Nemeth: 	<- Linux
[15:34]	Charlette Proto: 	forget macs
[15:34]	Charlotte Bartlett: 	Mac and PC ugh lol
[15:34]	StarSong Bright: 	i am looking for the best way to build externally and import. i knwo you can with 3d max but it doesnt have a mac version
[15:34]	Charlette Proto: 	linus ugh
[15:34]	Patchouli Woollahra: 	then get a PC :p
[15:34]	Charlotte Bartlett: 	StarSong you can do it on Cinema 4D
[15:34]	Dizzy Banjo: 	i think im gonna crash ive had a crazy day
[15:34]	Charlette Proto: 	yuk
[15:34]	StarSong Bright: 	no no i dont want to start a religious computing discusion.. please
[15:34]	Charlotte Bartlett: 	with a Mac
[15:34]	Dizzy Banjo: 	c u all :)
[15:34]	McCabe Maxsted: 	I think wings3D does
[15:35]	StarSong Bright: 	lol jsut want to know what i can use.. smiles
[15:35]	Aimee Trescothick: 	tc Dizzy :)
[15:35]	Charlette Proto: 	blender yuk
[15:35]	McCabe Maxsted: 	okay dizzy, take care :)
[15:35]	Patchouli Woollahra: 	take care Dizzy.
[15:35]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe
[15:35]	Dizzy Banjo: 	bai
[15:35]	StarSong Bright: 	bye
[15:35]	Patchouli Woollahra: 	ditto here.
[15:35]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Import? You can import stuff?
[15:35]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Ciao Dizzy
[15:35]	Patchouli Woollahra: 	been up all night.
[15:35]	McCabe Maxsted: 	you can convert to a sculptie and use that
[15:35]	StarSong Bright: 	it is possible to build in outsdie tools and convert to here
[15:35]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hey Squirrel
[15:35]	Charlette Proto: 	hi squirrel
[15:35]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Hey Squirrel!
[15:35]	McCabe Maxsted: 	ahoy squirrel :)
[15:35]	Jacek Antonelli: 	There are scripts to import prims
[15:35]	Charlotte Bartlett: 	I am ut of here too - thanks guys - good luck witih it :) - yes on Cinema 4D drop me a line tomorow can give you some details. Our pipeline deploys to Blue Mars, MysCom & SL in one *spew out*
[15:35]	Squirrel Wood: 	Hollas!
[15:36]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Still rezzing.
[15:36]	StarSong Bright: 	but i only know of 3d max.. i havent used cinema 4d, who makes that?
[15:36]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Take care Charlotte, thanks for coming :)
[15:36]	StarSong Bright: 	bye
[15:36]	Charlette Proto: 	bye Charlotte
[15:36]	Charlotte Bartlett: 	Maxon :)
[15:36]	StarSong Bright: 	hiya squirl
[15:36]	Charlotte Bartlett: 	bye bye for now all - I am sure I wasn't much help lol but fingers crossed they improve *something*
[15:37]	McCabe Maxsted coughs. Well, *someone* will ;) 	McCabe Maxsted coughs. Well, *someone* will ;)
[15:37]	Jacek Antonelli grins 	Jacek Antonelli grins
[15:37]	StarSong Bright: 	smiles
[15:37]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Real object export / import would be great.
[15:37]	StarSong Bright: 	nods
[15:37]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Except... which 3d modelling software talks in the sense of primitives?
[15:37]	Squirrel Wood: 	Improvement exists to be stepped and trampled on by high heels and stuff :p
[15:38]	McCabe Maxsted: 	like in second inventory?
[15:38]	Charlette Proto: 	exporting a linked group to sculptie map would be a nice thing
[15:38]	StarSong Bright examines my heels smiling 	StarSong Bright examines my heels smiling
[15:38]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Right, McCabe. For backing up builds, and such
[15:38]	Charlette Proto: 	also all kinds of transcorms on multiple prims (align)
[15:38]	McCabe Maxsted: 	yeah... would love to take stuff to my opensim
[15:38]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Also, for at least allowing the possibility of other 3D programs supporting SL prims
[15:38]	Squirrel Wood: 	http://www.realityprime.com/articles/how-sl-primitives-really-work
[15:39]	StarSong Bright: 	yes, when i accidentally killed my build.. at the end when it was perfect, every texture ever seam.. i really did wail loud enough to be heard a couple blocks away... sighs
[15:39]	McCabe Maxsted: 	awww
[15:39]	Jacek Antonelli: 	awww, hehe poor StarSong
[15:39]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I hate when stuff like that happens :(
[15:39]	StarSong Bright: 	i had tried to make backups of it but it was 100 meters across and a few hundred prims....
[15:39]	StarSong Bright: 	nothign i had was complete enough, it was just easier to start over
[15:39]	Jacek Antonelli: 	aww
[15:40]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Oh, here's another one -- ability to edit the parameters of multiple prims at once
[15:40]	StarSong Bright: 	i want to be able to select my COPYABLE prims when i build
[15:40]	McCabe Maxsted: 	oh, YES
[15:40]	Charlette Proto: 	widgets for building stairs, ballustrades etc come under transform tools mentioned before
[15:40]	StarSong Bright: 	i have made changes to my huge build now, but there is ZERO way to back it up becsue its full of no copy furniture now
[15:41]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Good point StarSong
[15:41]	Charlette Proto: 	hirerarchical linking is essential for complex builds too
[15:41]	Aimee Trescothick: 	oh yeah, that's another important thing that's missing
[15:41]	Squirrel Wood: 	several root prims ?
[15:41]	StarSong Bright: 	we need cascading permissions, so you can make sure taht the perms of a prim are copied to contents in some fashion
[15:42]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah, that would be nice. But I wouldn't hold my breath for LL to add the server-side support for hierarchical link sets
[15:42]	Charlette Proto: 	I can't believe that peopl pay for houses that are just one linked mass
[15:42]	Squirrel Wood: 	there IS an issue with permissions "changing" when an object is unlinked
[15:42]	StarSong Bright: 	i foudn a clothing store where the gal didnt understand teh permissions, she had no copy on her sale prims but her clothing was full perms.. i told her immediately, and with luck she wont find all her designs in a biz in a box somewhere
[15:42]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Oh my, Star
[15:42]	McCabe Maxsted: 	yikes
[15:42]	Charlette Proto: 	yes unlinking now is like rezzing not allowed in many cases
[15:43]	Aimee Trescothick: 	yeah, heirarchical linking would be useful for dynamic stuff too, moving sections of objects with scripts etc.
[15:43]	McCabe Maxsted: 	I wonder itf it'd be better to display the permission you can do, rather than the ones you can't; so (modify)(transfer)
[15:43]	Squirrel Wood: 	I want to be able to set no copy / no transfer separate.
[15:43]	Aimee Trescothick: 	like the old jointed objects, but done right
[15:43]	StarSong Bright: 	yes that might be a good ui improvment, most noobs really dont get that copy and trans are related in any way
[15:43]	Squirrel Wood: 	right now its either one or the other
[15:43]	Charlette Proto: 	true but what would full perm be then
[15:44]	StarSong Bright: 	i remember it too me ages
[15:44]	Charlette Proto: 	nothing i suppose
[15:44]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Permissions checkboxes in inventory would be nice. Vincent Nacon had those in his UI proposal
[15:44]	Charlette Proto: 	no prohibitions = full perm
[15:44]	McCabe Maxsted wasn't around for joints, just seen the references in the source code :) I did read on the wiki that they were "planned to come back with havok4" though, so maybe someone should bug andrew	McCabe Maxsted wasn't around for joints, just seen the references in the source code :) I did read on the wiki that they were "planned to come back with havok4" though, so maybe someone should bug andrew
[15:45]	Jacek Antonelli: 	So you could both see and change the permissions of objects from the inventory window
[15:45]	Charlette Proto: 	permission assignment aws mentioned last week as being a global user's default attrivute
[15:45]	Squirrel Wood: 	joints were left out deliberately on the H4 release
[15:45]	Charlette Proto: 	yse to Jacek
[15:46]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Also, setting permissions on lots of items at once. There's a patch to do it for objects and contents, but it's needed for directly in inventory too
[15:46]	Charlette Proto: 	I'd still like to see the pie menu with all attributes of a built objects at hand
[15:46]	StarSong Bright: 	ah there was a bug a while back where perms set in the inventory were not working right when objects rezzed.. dont know what happened to that one
[15:46]	McCabe Maxsted: 	yes, definitely. Was just thinking how nice it'd be to set permissions for a folder, or ctrl click a group of objects
[15:47]	Squirrel Wood points https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-8049 	Squirrel Wood points https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-8049
[15:48]	Charlette Proto: 	OK I realise everyone here hates the pie
[15:48]	Geneko Nemeth: 	What pie?
[15:48]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I hope LL gets around to implementing the network protocol for setting permissions on things at creation time
[15:48]	Squirrel Wood: 	the cake is a pie!
[15:48]	Charlette Proto: 	the pie menu
[15:48]	McCabe Maxsted: 	haha squirrel
[15:48]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Even if they don't do the UI for it
[15:48]	Charlette Proto: 	not the number hehe
[15:48]	Squirrel Wood: 	Coco Linden is working on this issue
[15:49]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Has she said which parts she's doing yet? I read that she's not going to do all of it
[15:49]	Charlette Proto: 	Coco - perms menu?
[15:49]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Hi Chaley!
[15:49]	Jacek Antonelli: 	This is still unassigned :( https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-3046
[15:49]	McCabe Maxsted: 	last I read she was trying to convince people that "just setting it afterwards is enough"
[15:50]	McCabe Maxsted: 	(damn, everyone's beating me on the JIRAs today. I'm going to lie and say I'm stuffed with turkey)
[15:50]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehe
[15:50]	Squirrel Wood: 	This is turning into a meta task because of it's many parts. They probably can't be tackled all at once but parts can be peeled off. valerie rosewood created VWR-8624 for just the upload part of the puzzle which I've recently closed with help from Catherine's patches. Thanks to her and everyone that contributed.
[15:50]	StarSong Bright: 	oh gawd i hate that.. every time you brin gsomethign like this up you get some rinkydink work around. . What is wrong with these people?
[15:50]	Charlette Proto: 	setting perms as a default use pref is better than afterwards
[15:51]	Jacek Antonelli: 	"Why improve usability when you can already jump through these hoops to get the same effect? *goes back to nap*"
[15:51]	McCabe Maxsted: 	ask a linden for a wrench and he'll give you a hammer...
[15:51]	Squirrel Wood: 	setting afterwards for 100s of prims and scripts and stuff... ya right.
[15:51]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe very true, ask for a hammer and you get adjustible spanner
[15:52]	Magadski Adamski: 	What the hell is going on with tis system
[15:52]	StarSong Bright: 	oh and its not jsut the 100s of prims, its the scritps that are killer
[15:52]	Squirrel Wood: 	You need to know what to ask for ^^
[15:52]	StarSong Bright: 	ONE wrong script and you cant back your build up in a bilding rezzer
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Eep yeah, Starsong :( I hate that
[15:52]	StarSong Bright: 	that was part of my problem tha tkilled my big build.. soemthing was set wrong
[15:52]	Charlette Proto: 	also delete scripts from all objects in a link would be a nice hack
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli: 	And there's nothing to help you find *which* script it is!
[15:52]	McCabe Maxsted: 	honestly, I don't think they really trust we know what we're talking about. Maybe too many years of resident heckling have taken their toll
[15:53]	Squirrel Wood: 	llSetLinkPrimitiveName(int linknum, string name) <= whyyyyy not?
[15:53]	Charlette Proto: 	the scipt based building tools are such a bad bunch of hacks in my view
[15:53]	StarSong Bright: 	yes
[15:53]	StarSong Bright: 	and dangerous lol
[15:53]	McCabe Maxsted nods 	McCabe Maxsted nods
[15:54]	Aimee Trescothick: 	heh, that would be fun if it worked for sitting avatars Squirrel :P :D
[15:54]	Charlette Proto: 	always cause trouble for me and run in backed up objects besides most builders not understanding LSL at all
[15:54]	StarSong Bright: 	i want to pick one of their brains aobut the double transparency problem
[15:54]	Charlette Proto: 	State Machines are not intuitive when it come to building at all
[15:55]	McCabe Maxsted: 	the alpha sorting bug?
[15:55]	StarSong Bright: 	yeah hair disappeairng in front of a window for example
[15:55]	Charlette Proto: 	double transparency suck for sure
[15:55]	Squirrel Wood: 	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-632 - related to UI - could have been done in the past year and a half easily... yet... nothing.
[15:55]	Charlette Proto: 	hair shoes are all block
[15:55]	McCabe Maxsted: 	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-27 ?
[15:56]	Squirrel Wood: 	I consider prim names and descriptions valuable storage space
[15:56]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Well, yeah. Where's out persistent data storage? :D
[15:56]	Jacek Antonelli: 	our*
[15:57]	StarSong Bright: 	Secret Building Tools should be revealed - there are secret buildgin tools?????
[15:57]	StarSong Bright: 	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-8837
[15:57]	McCabe Maxsted: 	there's two or three
[15:57]	StarSong Bright: 	hmmmmm
[15:57]	StarSong Bright: 	oh yeah i see now.. nothign new there, sighs, darn i was about to get excited lol
[15:57]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, I'm going to have to pull a Benjamin -- I have a feast to go to. :D McCabe, can you email me the transcript later?
[15:58]	McCabe Maxsted: 	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-7827 is a patch of mine that's finally been accepted :)
[15:58]	McCabe Maxsted: 	sure
[15:58]	McCabe Maxsted: 	enjoy your meeting :D
[15:58]	StarSong Bright: 	take care jacek
[15:58]	Squirrel Wood: 	Humm.... I think I will set priority on misc-632 to showstopper :p
[15:58]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Take care, all! See you next week for the Linden-attended meeting
[15:58]	Squirrel Wood: 	that should light a sign or two at LL
[15:58]	Jacek Antonelli waves 	Jacek Antonelli waves
[15:59]	Squirrel Wood: 	"possibly" linden attended meeting
[15:59]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hehe
[15:59]	Aimee Trescothick waves 	Aimee Trescothick waves
[15:59]	StarSong Bright checks the swirling hand for a mic 	StarSong Bright checks the swirling hand for a mic
[15:59]	Charlette Proto: 	one more thing - nano and mega prims
[16:00]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe I came here with open mic once
[16:00]	Squirrel Wood: 	mega prims... anything past 256m is too big for any good use
[16:00]	StarSong Bright: 	nods
[16:00]	Charlette Proto: 	I mean past 10m limit
[16:01]	StarSong Bright: 	even if they jsut increased it a bit
[16:01]	McCabe Maxsted: 	I'd say even 100.... you can't see them if your draw distance is, say, 64
[16:01]	StarSong Bright: 	to like 50
[16:01]	Squirrel Wood: 	nano prims... good for jewellry, but hard to find / select / remove
[16:01]	StarSong Bright: 	i think that that woudl cover MOST of my needs
[16:01]	Squirrel Wood: 	16m sounds good
[16:01]	StarSong Bright: 	heck even 25 would be cool beans
[16:01]	Charlette Proto: 	my draw distance is 256 and it is enough for even the biggest builds
[16:02]	StarSong Bright: 	jsut think, it might help the inventory problems.. i have a gazillion megas in my inventory
[16:02]	McCabe Maxsted: 	I can't set mine that high... lag too bad
[16:02]	StarSong Bright: 	i could throw 80% of them away if i could just make my own prims up to 50m
[16:02]	Charlette Proto: 	10m is far too small to make a tower of a fence
[16:02]	Squirrel Wood: 	megaprims... shrink them to 10% their size on rez :p
[16:02]	Charlette Proto: 	yes same here
[16:02]	Charlette Proto: 	holly crap i need to run, bye for now and thanks to all
[16:03]	StarSong Bright: 	take care charlette
[16:03]	Squirrel Wood: 	^^
[16:03]	McCabe Maxsted: 	anyone want more megaprims? I made a ton back when the bug was enabled again
[16:03]	Charlette Proto: 	byeeee
[16:03]	McCabe Maxsted: 	take care charlette!
[16:03]	Squirrel Wood: 	no need for megaprims here
[16:03]	StarSong Bright: 	i have a package of 7k of htem, in all sizes up to 50x50x50
[16:03]	StarSong Bright: 	heh think i got it covered
[16:03]	Aimee Trescothick: 	heh, I just use Salt HUD
[16:03]	StarSong Bright: 	i have one of those, but i always forget to use it lol
[16:03]	McCabe Maxsted <3's the SALT 	McCabe Maxsted <3's the SALT
[16:04]	Squirrel Wood: 	Humm.
[16:04]	Aimee Trescothick: 	makes it much easier to find them and don't have to clutter up your inventory :D
[16:04]	StarSong Bright: 	true
[16:04]	Squirrel Wood: 	my terraformer is still better than your megaprims :p
[16:04]	Aimee Trescothick: 	though I do have a fair number of stock ones
[16:04]	Aimee Trescothick: 	ah, now
[16:04]	StarSong Bright: 	i was given one but i havent really done much with it, i didnt know if it has them all in an di have been too lazy to look
[16:04]	Aimee Trescothick: 	better terraforming tools would be luvverly
[16:04]	Aimee Trescothick: 	and working undo
[16:04]	StarSong Bright: 	yes!
[16:04]	Squirrel Wood: 	I has dem ^^
[16:05]	StarSong Bright: 	omg the ui on edit land is nuts
[16:05]	McCabe Maxsted: 	I helped him alpha test it. "Filled to the brim with girllish glee" was a good approximation of my creation
[16:05]	Squirrel Wood: 	and will release them soon
[16:05]	McCabe Maxsted: 	how so star?
[16:05]	StarSong Bright: 	hwo it selects the whole land when you choose edit... i reterriformed my entire sim back in the beginning, lost HOURS of work, mainland no rollback
[16:05]	StarSong Bright: 	the stupid appl to selection button is right there by teh dropdown for size of tool
[16:05]	StarSong Bright: 	so easy to click by mistake
[16:05]	Squirrel Wood: 	^^
[16:06]	McCabe Maxsted: 	ahh, yeah
[16:06]	StarSong Bright: 	hi alyssa
[16:06]	McCabe Maxsted: 	(we've fixed that with imprudence, hehe :D )
[16:06]	Alyssa Kas: 	hi
[16:06]	Squirrel Wood: 	If you have a parcel available that supports 4,200 prims....
[16:06]	Aimee Trescothick: 	some improvements to the land tools should be coming
[16:06]	Aimee Trescothick: 	same as in imprudence
[16:06]	StarSong Bright: 	nods
[16:06]	Aimee Trescothick: 	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-8430
[16:06]	McCabe Maxsted: 	aimee rocks the land tools
[16:06]	Aimee Trescothick: 	just minor tweaks to the window
[16:06]	StarSong Bright: 	they really really need to add OS to teh estate names of os sims so people know which kind they are in
[16:07]	Squirrel Wood: 	http://www.koinup.com/Torley/work/50642/
[16:07]	StarSong Bright: 	how about the ability to dig a round hole? smiles
[16:07]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hide in a cave!
[16:07]	Squirrel Wood: 	round holes are overrated
[16:08]	StarSong Bright: 	well i am a round peg lol, i like a round hole to sit in, grins
[16:08]	Aimee Trescothick: 	mm, I meant to check actually, what they did about the colour key window, the patch was only meant as an example for that, if you keep hitting the ? you get lots of the colour key popups if I remember rightly lol
[16:09]	Aimee Trescothick: 	better texture mapping of the terrain would be top of my list
[16:09]	Aimee Trescothick: 	being able to define exactly where the textures get blended
[16:09]	StarSong Bright: 	nods
[16:09]	McCabe Maxsted: 	mmm, that'd be nice
[16:09]	StarSong Bright: 	well on mainland you get no control of that anyways
[16:09]	StarSong Bright: 	sighs
[16:10]	McCabe Maxsted: 	isn't mainland land only editable +/-15m too?
[16:10]	Squirrel Wood: 	+/- 4m
[16:10]	Squirrel Wood: 	most parts
[16:10]	Aimee Trescothick: 	just having it so the textures appear in the same place for everyone would be a good start
[16:10]	StarSong Bright: 	4
[16:10]	McCabe Maxsted: 	ouch
[16:10]	StarSong Bright: 	and my sim is a hillside
[16:11]	StarSong Bright: 	i ended up doing all kidns a crazy workarounds
[16:11]	Squirrel Wood: 	+/- 100m it is for private owned sims
[16:11]	Aimee Trescothick: 	being able to make holes in the land surface would be nice too
[16:11]	Aimee Trescothick: 	i.e right through it, for tunnels and stuff
[16:11]	StarSong Bright: 	oh yes that would be cool
[16:12]	StarSong Bright: 	you know wht is on my wishlist, now that sims go up to 4k meters high.. i wish you could partition them vertically
[16:12]	StarSong Bright: 	i dont know about you guys but that is just 3300 meters more space to lose things
[16:12]	StarSong Bright laughs 	StarSong Bright laughs
[16:12]	Aimee Trescothick: 	LOL
[16:13]	StarSong Bright: 	i would love to be able to make my sim so that only members could go OVER 1000 meters
[16:13]	Aimee Trescothick: 	well, on a smaller scale we have a building with an office shop above a gallery, and would like to be able to parcel them separately for media stuff, music, search etc.
[16:13]	StarSong Bright: 	so there would be no ban lines on the ground
[16:13]	McCabe Maxsted: 	haha
[16:13]	McCabe Maxsted: 	now that would be something nice
[16:14]	StarSong Bright: 	i think it could go a long way to making the ground nicer
[16:14]	StarSong Bright: 	you could rent out upper portions of a sim, and give people their own radio stations, for example
[16:14]	StarSong Bright: 	even if their skyboxes were directly vertical
[16:14]	Aimee Trescothick: 	yeah, limit people's max height would be good, lots of people have a public island then bung their skybox for building, house etc. up in the air
[16:14]	McCabe Maxsted: 	it's a 3D world... why shouldn't we give people 3D spaces
[16:14]	Aimee Trescothick: 	absolutely
[16:14]	Squirrel Wood: 	256m³ of space! Rent now!
[16:14]	StarSong Bright: 	is there a jira on that?
[16:15]	Aimee Trescothick: 	hmm, don't know I'd be surprised if their wasn't
[16:15]	McCabe Maxsted: 	not for parceling, I don't think, but there's a similar one for 3D "privacy zones"
[16:15]	StarSong Bright: 	well the prim counts would probably be weird, and i am srue they would say it couldnt be done on mainland, mores the pity
[16:15]	Aimee Trescothick: 	I want to get another sim and put it below my current one :D tunnel system etc. :D
[16:15]	Squirrel Wood: 	Mainland's a pita in its own
[16:16]	Aimee Trescothick: 	this is a 3D world built on a 2D grid
[16:16]	StarSong Bright: 	i dont see one.. what would i serch for? i put in vertical parcel
[16:16]	McCabe Maxsted: 	(why do people live on teh mainland anyway? just the price?)
[16:16]	StarSong Bright: 	yep
[16:16]	StarSong Bright: 	thats my reason
[16:16]	StarSong Bright: 	i have my social sim, and 200 i can break even, 300 would be hard
[16:17]	StarSong Bright: 	i am jonsing for an island so bad, after my build disaster..
[16:17]	StarSong Bright: 	coulda fixed teh whole thing in 5 mins but no rollbacks on mainland
[16:17]	Squirrel Wood owns no land at all 	Squirrel Wood owns no land at all
[16:17]	Aimee Trescothick: 	private sims can get a bit insular
[16:17]	StarSong Bright: 	nods, it really depends on yoru reason for being
[16:17]	McCabe Maxsted: 	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-783
[16:17]	Aimee Trescothick: 	would be nice to have a bit more random traffic at our place
[16:17]	McCabe Maxsted: 	that's as close as I could find
[16:17]	Aimee Trescothick: 	without the disadvantages
[16:18]	McCabe Maxsted: 	you mean the insane price?
[16:18]	Aimee Trescothick: 	lol
[16:19]	StarSong Bright: 	oh thats cool but not quite what i had in mind
[16:20]	McCabe Maxsted: 	you should create a new one and mark it as related
[16:20]	StarSong Bright: 	yes i will when we are done
[16:20]	StarSong Bright: 	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-549 is interesting
[16:20]	StarSong Bright: 	the lindens should do that now on parcels and os sims
[16:21]	StarSong Bright: 	if a club has 25% of a sim, they should not be allowed ot have 40 people round the clock, tis not fair to the other 3/4 of the sim
[16:21]	StarSong Bright: 	heh not a building thing but hey if you are one of those 3/4 people you cant get into your sim to build heheh kinda related i guess
[16:22]	StarSong Bright: 	ah here we go this is teh one to voite for i think
[16:22]	Aimee Trescothick: 	mmm, friend of mine had an issue recently with some one constantly running so many bots on the same sim he couldn't even get home
[16:23]	McCabe Maxsted: 	we should be able to file abuse reports about that
[16:23]	StarSong Bright: 	yes you can there is a special category for it
[16:24]	McCabe Maxsted: 	really? "wasting sim resources"?
[16:24]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Woo, still at it, eh?
[16:24]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hehe wb jacek :P
[16:24]	StarSong Bright: 	distrubing the peace - unfair use of resoruces
[16:24]	Jacek Antonelli rubs her tummy. Mmmm. 	Jacek Antonelli rubs her tummy. Mmmm.
[16:24]	McCabe Maxsted: 	what'd you grab?
[16:24]	StarSong Bright: 	some of my neighbors in cloudrider started reporting their neighbors and most of the camping stopped
[16:25]	StarSong Bright: 	there were three or four plcaes with campers, the sim was always full
[16:25]	McCabe Maxsted: 	interesting I'll have to try that sometime, never knew they listened to those
[16:26]	StarSong Bright: 	apparently they do, but you may have to do it weekly heh
[16:26]	Squirrel Wood: 	DoS
[16:26]	StarSong Bright: 	until they get tired of hearing you squeek
[16:26]	Squirrel Wood: 	Denial of Service
[16:26]	StarSong Bright: 	yes!
[16:26]	McCabe Maxsted: 	I was impressed the last time I ARd a griefer... took only a couple of minutes to respond
[16:26]	Squirrel Wood: 	heh
[16:26]	Squirrel Wood: 	They have vastly improved on their reaction times to griefers
[16:27]	StarSong Bright: 	it took me a month to get rid of this noxious particle thing tha tsomeone had dropped just outside my border
[16:28]	StarSong Bright: 	had to report it three times.. it looked like a big $hit cloud there lol
[16:28]	McCabe Maxsted: 	ew
[16:28]	StarSong Bright: 	yeah i was annoyed..
[16:28]	Squirrel Wood: 	visual offense
[16:28]	StarSong Bright: 	mostly i ignored it, draw distance is short heh so i didnt really see it unless i went looking
[16:29]	Squirrel Wood: 	With 30k sims out there LL sure has a LOT to do
[16:30]	StarSong Bright: 	true
[16:30]	Squirrel Wood: 	and most times its things like... "the third prim of the fourth tree southeast of my parcel is encroaching on my piece of land"
[16:30]	StarSong Bright: 	have you seen teh econ numbers for this month?
[16:30]	StarSong Bright: 	last i looked they were DOWNover 1400 sims
[16:30]	Squirrel Wood: 	It may just be 0.01m but still.
[16:30]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hah
[16:30]	McCabe Maxsted: 	I wonder how bad the openspace debacle hurt them
[16:30]	StarSong Bright: 	-1723 today
[16:31]	Squirrel Wood: 	they are likely to go down another couple 1000.... void sims
[16:31]	StarSong Bright: 	well they added
[16:31]	StarSong Bright: 	1045 las month
[16:31]	StarSong Bright: 	and are minus 1723 today.. so even if they ahve been selling, they are losing much faster
[16:31]	Squirrel Wood: 	many void sims really were abused.
[16:32]	StarSong Bright: 	yes, and its too bad that they didnt tyr to DO somthign besides raise fees
[16:32]	Squirrel Wood: 	5k+ prim temp rezzers
[16:32]	Squirrel Wood: 	prim bonus abuse to get 15k prims
[16:32]	StarSong Bright: 	i mean, they should have tried to scale back avatars first
[16:32]	StarSong Bright: 	or institued some sort of resrouce watchdog
[16:32]	Squirrel Wood: 	they should have just set hard limits.
[16:32]	StarSong Bright: 	nods
[16:33]	Squirrel Wood: 	3750 prims, 1000 scripts, 8 players per void sim
[16:33]	StarSong Bright: 	so many people are so angry, i really worry this is a nail in LLs coffin, a lot of my friends went to take a close look at the open grid
[16:33]	Squirrel Wood: 	including temp prims.
[16:33]	McCabe Maxsted: 	yeah. It was rather amusing the feigning surprise when people started abusing the resources after they *raised the prim limits*
[16:33]	StarSong Bright: 	nods
[16:33]	StarSong Bright: 	duh
[16:33]	StarSong Bright: 	they should have tried to virutalize or something
[16:34]	Squirrel Wood: 	they ARE virtualizing
[16:34]	StarSong Bright: 	i realize that wastes a lot of cpu but... it woudl be more fair
[16:34]	StarSong Bright: 	no, i dont think so
[16:34]	StarSong Bright: 	not correctly anyways
[16:34]	StarSong Bright: 	if they were, NO one sim woul be affecting another one
[16:34]	Squirrel Wood: 	Any sim can start up on any available server when rebooting
[16:34]	StarSong Bright: 	yeah but they POOL cpu and memory
[16:34]	Geneko Nemeth: 	That's not the same as virtualizatino.
[16:34]	Geneko Nemeth: 	*on
[16:34]	Squirrel Wood: 	ya. but still they are virtual machines
[16:35]	StarSong Bright: 	its not a hard limit on how much of either a sim can suck up, thats why one club can ruin the os experience of their neighbor son teh box