Content Creation/Scripting User Group/Transcripts/2011 02 14

== List of Speakers ==
flexi campfire
== Transcript ==
[09:01] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): Hello!
[09:01] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Hello!
[09:01] !< Sofa: Click the seat to change your animation or position.
[09:01] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): Very private OH today...
[09:02] tehKellz (kelly.linden): yeah I don't think it was announced much.
[09:02] Liisa Runo (liisa.runo): not in the calendar
[09:02] tehKellz (kelly.linden): I don't want to announce them too loudly until I get all my ducks in a row re: 'user group'
[09:02] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): Exactly
[09:02] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): Let's ring the bell...
[09:02] tehKellz (kelly.linden): hopefully I can get that straightened out today.
[09:03] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): Mega group chat lag...
[09:05] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): Me too...
[09:05] tehKellz (kelly.linden): how was everyone's weekend?
[09:07] Liisa Runo (liisa.runo): i got good fine weekend
[09:07] Sam (samuri.zabelin): hi Kelly ?
[09:08] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): Can I have a pillow?
[09:08] tehKellz (kelly.linden): wow Haravikk filled up my triage list while I was gone.
[09:08] Nexus Infinity (nexus.infinity): Good :P
[09:08] tehKellz (kelly.linden): https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Kelly_Linden/script_jira_triage
[09:09] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): I already love SVC-2105
[09:09] flexi campfire: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/svc-2105
[09:10] tehKellz (kelly.linden): well the first one is easy - SVC-6350: that is not a scripting issue, and should be taken to the Sim user group that andrew hosts.
[09:10] flexi campfire: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/svc-6350:
[09:10] tehKellz (kelly.linden): he gets all megaprim issues. :p
[09:10] Nexus Infinity (nexus.infinity): I think that is one of Tal's
[09:11] Nexus Infinity (nexus.infinity): I'll make sure it gets brought up in Andrew's later
[09:12] tehKellz (kelly.linden): SVC-2105 would definitely be nice. But it isn't easy.
[09:12] flexi campfire: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/svc-2105
[09:13] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): (Does somebody knows how to bypass the login crap? IT's really tiresome everytime)
[09:14] Nexus Infinity (nexus.infinity): login crap?
[09:14] S (sigma.avro): the fast is not the work arround for this ?
[09:14] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): "Processing login..."
[09:15] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): Any way... Can we have svc-2105?
[09:15] flexi campfire: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/svc-2105?
[09:15] S (sigma.avro): lol, without the ?
[09:15] tehKellz (kelly.linden): I may need to pause here to set expectations.
[09:16] Nexus Infinity (nexus.infinity): yeah, even though I guess it would be nice to set a bunch of links at once with one call, is it really that slow to do multiple calls?
[09:16] tehKellz (kelly.linden): We are not currently working on scripting improvements beyond upgrading our mono runtime to mono 2.6
[09:17] tehKellz (kelly.linden): I can 'acknowledge' this issue, but it is a feature request clearly and I have no way of predicting when it might be addressed.
[09:17] S (sigma.avro): the only point is maybe clocks, because the remaining depends on viewer on how fast one sees the change. I dont understand well the purpose of this
[09:17] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): Irrelevant... Expect to receive demands at every OH... :P
[09:17] Srilania Svoboda-Pawpad (srilania.svoboda): Might I bring up an item being one of the people a little more ignorant on the scripts?
[09:17] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Kaluura: well, yes, of course.
[09:17] tehKellz (kelly.linden): I've removed Babbage as the watcher and I will link this one to the efficient scripts jira
[09:18] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Go ahead Srilania
[09:18] Srilania Svoboda-Pawpad (srilania.svoboda): We're noticing a lot of people having issues trying to remove scripts from no mod items. these are older items with the old recolor/resizer scripts, and with them being no mod, aren't able to remove the scripts or even stop the scripts
[09:19] S (sigma.avro): oh, big problem indeed
[09:19] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Yeah that is a can of worms issue.
[09:19] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): It has never bee possible, IIRC
[09:19] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): been*
[09:19] Srilania Svoboda-Pawpad (srilania.svoboda): this wouldn't be bad, but these are the old style items, with 2-5 scripts/prim, running at 200-250 prims
[09:20] S (sigma.avro): well, these items should go to trash
[09:20] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): My feeling too...
[09:20] S (sigma.avro): lol, sorry
[09:20] Faust Vollmar (faust.vollmar): With the creator gone, in a number of cases. I suspect it boils down to a "SOL, trash it and find something new." more than likely.
[09:21] tehKellz (kelly.linden): I think it was possible maybe 5-6 years ago.
[09:21] Tika Oberueng (tika.oberueng): would be nice to be able to delete scripts from blingtarded designs sometimes, but, that could open up quite a pandora's box to allow that, I'd think... just easier to garbage them and not buy from those designers that don't care
[09:21] S (sigma.avro): In any ca
[09:21] S (sigma.avro): wrong tab sorry
[09:21] Srilania Svoboda-Pawpad (srilania.svoboda): Sigma, considering some of these are older items that at the time were rather expensive, or worse, things that people are getting as newbies from freebie piles, it makes this an issue we can't just say "trash it" and go on
[09:21] Sam (samuri.zabelin): i have a question related to that ?
[09:22] tehKellz (kelly.linden): There are arguments for both sides, and for now creators have the control.
[09:22] tehKellz (kelly.linden): It is more an issue of permissions and owner "rights" than it is of scripting.
[09:22] S (sigma.avro): Well, it is the price to pay for progress to my point of view, but , yes, am sorry for this comment I did
[09:22] Tika Oberueng (tika.oberueng): but, I still frequently see 200 prim shoes with 700 scripts in them, and a designer who says "all those scripts HAVE to be there, you don't know what you're talking about"... it's 'tarded
[09:22] Srilania Svoboda-Pawpad (srilania.svoboda): well, just bringing up the issue, and yes, would be nice if people could remove scripts or at least stop them running in the item
[09:23] Faust Vollmar (faust.vollmar): Setting a script not running still loads it into memory, iirc
[09:23] tehKellz (kelly.linden): correct
[09:23] Faust Vollmar (faust.vollmar): And given that memory is the problem factor...
[09:23] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): Totally useless to stop the scripts... You still carry them at eavery TP or border crossing
[09:24] tehKellz (kelly.linden): I think an option to delete the scripts is reasonable, and will have to further consider it when it comes closer to time to work on script memory limits.
[09:24] Srilania Svoboda-Pawpad (srilania.svoboda): Well, as i said, I'm an idiot and don't know a lot when it comes to scripts. I just know what i deal with daily
[09:24] Srilania Svoboda-Pawpad (srilania.svoboda): and excess scripts has been the #1 source of TP fails we've delt with in support
[09:25] Hope of Tentium (hope.dreier): Question, since the region 'knows' that the script is not running, as opposed to idle, could the region refrain from loading the script until it is set to running?
[09:25] Nexus Infinity (nexus.infinity): I think the problem is that some creators use that "feature" as a protection for their products.
[09:25] Tika Oberueng (tika.oberueng): I should think an option to delete scripts from legitimately purchased items... should fall under fair use (of those prims)
[09:25] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Not really Hope.
[09:25] tehKellz (kelly.linden): See? Can of worms.
[09:25] Faust Vollmar (faust.vollmar): The creators who are being thick about it can be swayed eventually, especially when the complaints come flooding in en-masse when no one can wear their stuff.... But the ones who are simply gone from SL is an unfortunate matter.
[09:25] S (sigma.avro): well, seems to me that if region does not loaded the script, it can not know when it would have to run
[09:26] Nexus Infinity (nexus.infinity): It will be even worse for those products when the script memory limits hit.
[09:26] Hope of Tentium (hope.dreier): when the user opens tools and 'set scripts to running in selection'
[09:26] Tika Oberueng (tika.oberueng): one problem might then be less script-savvy folks deleting the scripts from items that genuinely need them, then hollering for replacements
[09:27] Srilania Svoboda-Pawpad (srilania.svoboda): tika, most of these items are usually copy/no mod/ no trans
[09:27] Tika Oberueng (tika.oberueng): yeah, quite true
[09:27] Nexus Infinity (nexus.infinity): Is why I hope some form of svc-5742 makes it into production before it hits. :-/
[09:27] flexi campfire: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/svc-5742
[09:28] Faust Vollmar (faust.vollmar): I would love unbundled prim params too, but last I heard the code for that thing is a plate of spaghetti.
[09:28] tehKellz (kelly.linden): more like an entire pot of it.
[09:28] S (sigma.avro): oh yes, I agree with this one
[09:28] Faust Vollmar (faust.vollmar): Er don't mind my spelling I just got outta bed about when I dropped in here. >.<
[09:28] Tika Oberueng (tika.oberueng): mind you, i also routinely see people edit/resize/recolour their only copy of a copiable, then deleting scripts... then complaining when they resize their avi or something
[09:29] Nexus Infinity (nexus.infinity): yeah.. as I said.. "hope" :P
[09:30] tehKellz (kelly.linden): All right lets get back to the triage then.
[09:30] tehKellz (kelly.linden): SVC-6385
[09:30] flexi campfire: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/svc-6385
[09:31] Nexus Infinity (nexus.infinity): I note there are a BUNCH of flags which are internal-use or deprecated in the documentation.
[09:31] S (sigma.avro): lol, they are many more, and many flags are uncorrect and some undocumented. I can add the lit to it
[09:31] Nexus Infinity (nexus.infinity): http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlGetParcelFlags
[09:32] Liisa Runo (liisa.runo): People just need to learn to not buy/sell items with no-mod prims. The main reason why people started to do no-mod prims was to prevent the model being stolen with LSL. but These days copybots are easily available and very user frieendly. I dont see the LSL way to copy items very big threat. Not worth ruining the item by making it no-mod.
[09:32] tehKellz (kelly.linden): So, we don't actually want scripts used to scan for land for sale.
[09:32] Nexus Infinity (nexus.infinity): What does all those strikethroughs mean to that, Kelly?
[09:32] S (sigma.avro): No terraform (-) . Voice chat. No Estate voice channel (-). No deed to group. No contribute with deeded. No show directory. Parcel info web publishing not allowed (-). Parcel info not rated mature (-). Media URL is not an HTML page. Media URL not a raw HTML. Not deny indentified (?not documented?). Not deny transacted (?not documented?)
[09:32] Nexus Infinity (nexus.infinity): Oh? Why not?
[09:32] tehKellz (kelly.linden): just a load issue.
[09:33] Liisa Runo (liisa.runo): keep the land sales out, but add the rest
[09:33] tehKellz (kelly.linden): land-scanning-bots end up being heavy on the LSL system.
[09:33] Tika Oberueng (tika.oberueng): the real parcel script feature I'd like to see
[09:33] Hope of Tentium (hope.dreier): I can see scripted tools flying around from region to region looking for land to buy.
[09:34] Tika Oberueng (tika.oberueng): is the ability to read the parcel ban and access lists provided the land is same-owner as the script of course
[09:34] Nexus Infinity (nexus.infinity): Well, I guess it is better that they just hammer land search, even though it really isn't much of an issue anymore; almost all of the landbots are gone.
[09:34] Nexus Infinity (nexus.infinity): You can't give away mainland.
[09:34] tehKellz (kelly.linden): sigma: I dunno where that list is from but not all of those are parcel
[09:35] tehKellz (kelly.linden): or at least, they aren't parcel flags.
[09:35] S (sigma.avro): can give a list for parcell also oif you wnat
[09:36] Nexus Infinity (nexus.infinity): Apparently, they come from llparcelflags.h
[09:36] S (sigma.avro): yes, this is for parcell. Sorry. They are on list of parameters of land info. I only run one of my scripts to give this
[09:36] tehKellz (kelly.linden): We don't want the sale ones, the flags for allow deed / contribute with deed and even show directory don't seem useful at all
[09:36] tehKellz (kelly.linden): We don't want to expose the URLs
[09:37] tehKellz (kelly.linden): All that is left is whether or not the parcel is published and if it is mature.
[09:37] tehKellz (kelly.linden): deny identifified / transacted are unused.
[09:37] S (sigma.avro): well, if it is mature is an important point to be exposed indeed, but the problem is how fast data is updated
[09:38] tehKellz (kelly.linden): that is the maturity flag you think it is.
[09:38] tehKellz (kelly.linden): it is an ancient one for whether or not the search listing will be mature. I'm relatively sure it is esentially deprecated.
[09:38] tehKellz (kelly.linden): that isn't* I mean
[09:39] S (sigma.avro): ok
[09:39] tehKellz (kelly.linden): So that leaves .... voice?
[09:40] Tika Oberueng (tika.oberueng): is there a reason for not being able to detect a parcel's auto-return status?
[09:40] tehKellz (kelly.linden): it isn't a flag?
[09:41] tehKellz (kelly.linden): The llGetParcelFlags function is really, really, really simple. It is just a bit mask OR'd with the internal parcel flags variable.
[09:41] Tika Oberueng (tika.oberueng): i don't believe so
[09:41] tehKellz (kelly.linden): there isn't any magic to it.
[09:41] tehKellz (kelly.linden): So, if we dont' store it as a flag internally it isn't gonna be in llParcelFlags.
[09:41] tehKellz (kelly.linden): or was that not the question?
[09:42] Tika Oberueng (tika.oberueng): hmm, yes, I understand
[09:42] S (sigma.avro): about autoretunr, it would be nice to have by script when it happend, and when next will indeed. I have a snadbox (not a sand box region, just an aoffered place). I have tried all tricks but does not work
[09:42] tehKellz (kelly.linden): autoreturn doesn't happen every X seconds, it deletes anything that has been on the parcel for more than X seconds.
[09:42] tehKellz (kelly.linden): continusously
[09:42] tehKellz (kelly.linden): continuously
[09:42] Tika Oberueng (tika.oberueng): still, it really would be nice even if we could just have a boolean autoreturn value is either 0 or !0
[09:43] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Tika: That is a feature request, and separate from llGetParcelFlags. Feel free to file a jira for it.
[09:43] anupama1968 (anupama1968): hi everyone
[09:44] Nexus Infinity (nexus.infinity): Hiyas
[09:44] Hope of Tentium (hope.dreier): It's not completely clear but it appears that returns occurs in bursts, not buy how long objectes have actually been there.
[09:45] Hope of Tentium (hope.dreier): That is have hav spawned objects several minutes apart hand hand the returns both at the same time.
[09:45] S (sigma.avro): seems one of the sim tasks done "when there is time to check"
[09:45] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Yes, what Sigma says.
[09:45] Tika Oberueng (tika.oberueng): yeah, it may be something I'll file if I see a need for it again in the future, just thought I'd mention it
[09:46] Hope of Tentium (hope.dreier): OK... thanks
[09:46] Nexus Infinity (nexus.infinity): next? This one is gonna be interesting. :)
[09:46] tehKellz (kelly.linden): All right, next.
[09:46] tehKellz (kelly.linden): SVC-212 oh boy.
[09:46] flexi campfire: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/svc-212
[09:47] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): Soon 4 years old...
[09:47] Nexus Infinity (nexus.infinity): That actually is part of a bevy of requests.. some for objects, some for avs, some for both
[09:47] tehKellz (kelly.linden): It is tricky.
[09:47] Nexus Infinity (nexus.infinity): Mainly to get away from all the hacks.
[09:47] tehKellz (kelly.linden): It has huge griefing potential
[09:48] S (sigma.avro): well, I have been critisized because I said it should request permission
[09:48] tehKellz (kelly.linden): It would require a permission check or something very similar, yes.
[09:48] S (sigma.avro): oh, ok
[09:48] Nexus Infinity (nexus.infinity): I think there was a version of it which talked about using a new perm flag
[09:48] Nexus Infinity (nexus.infinity): Granted auto when worn or sat upon.
[09:48] anupama1968 (anupama1968): anyone wanting to talk one to one?
[09:49] tehKellz (kelly.linden): I'm looking at Haravikk's last comment
[09:49] S (sigma.avro): and what is the sim to tp to is shut down or full ?
[09:49] tehKellz (kelly.linden): the permission could not be bypassed based on land ownership - worn or sitting could though
[09:50] Nexus Infinity (nexus.infinity): There are other versions which essential just "officialize" the current WarpPos/PosJump behavior for objects.
[09:50] Tika Oberueng (tika.oberueng): oh boy
[09:50] Srilania Svoboda-Pawpad (srilania.svoboda): Well, I actually see that as valuable without permissions in a security setup, where someone on a ban list is ejected to a set place instead. But I agree with the way it's presented in that one, it should be the landowner, not just any tom, dick, or harry able to do that
[09:50] Tika Oberueng (tika.oberueng): that one there is dangerous
[09:50] tehKellz (kelly.linden): if you just need to kick use teleportagenthome
[09:51] Hope of Tentium (hope.dreier): Land owner or Group, or Estate manager.
[09:51] tehKellz (kelly.linden): you shouldn't get to pick where they go.
[09:51] Nexus Infinity (nexus.infinity): heh. Destination region = The Corn Field :P
[09:51] Hope of Tentium (hope.dreier): What if someone has their home set to the regiou you want them out of.
[09:52] Nexus Infinity (nexus.infinity): Ban em. It will kick them out every time they log in
[09:52] Srilania Svoboda-Pawpad (srilania.svoboda): exactly. Or, a sim owner having a special event in a different place would be able to set something out that puts people at the special event without changing the landing point of the sim
[09:52] tehKellz (kelly.linden): If the person WANTS to go there, then the permission isn't a huge deal.
[09:52] S (sigma.avro): so, one could make tp someone only under its permission (included sat) and if owner of the place where to tp to ?
[09:53] Nexus Infinity (nexus.infinity): I think the main thrust of that is to allow for intra/inter-sim teleports as a means to move people around, like with stargates and stuff
[09:53] tehKellz (kelly.linden): I'd personally like it so you could ask w/o the permission but doing so would cause some sort of dialog to pop up giving them the option to accept or deny the TP offer.
[09:53] Tika Oberueng (tika.oberueng): seems to me that using the Teleport to destination in chat method still works quite well and is entirely voluntary... same as giving a landmark
[09:54] Nexus Infinity (nexus.infinity): Essentially walking through the event horizon of some kind of "portal" TPs you.
[09:54] Srilania Svoboda-Pawpad (srilania.svoboda): Well, i've experienced the stargate networks. those usually pop a huge map up
[09:54] S (sigma.avro): sure Tika, lol. But this was more like a watchdog stuf
[09:55] Nexus Infinity (nexus.infinity): Could make it work so that it only works in the collision_start event, kinda like llMapDestination only works in the touch_start event
[09:55] Hope of Tentium (hope.dreier): The problem is that I'd really like to have my hud be ablet to have a menu of places to TP me to w/o opening a map as an intermediate step. or having to clock on a dialog line
[09:55] tehKellz (kelly.linden): that doesn't remove any of the griefing potential nexus
[09:55] Tika Oberueng (tika.oberueng): yeah, I've wanted something like that too, haha... but, my workaround has been to use a region-wide ban with a single 4x4 parcel on the region inside the jail cell
[09:55] Srilania Svoboda-Pawpad (srilania.svoboda): kinda kills the ambience and mood with a huge map popping up in your view
[09:56] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Hope: well having wearables only need to request the permission once, or maybe even not at all like animations would solve that.
[09:56] Nexus Infinity (nexus.infinity): No, that's what the "owned by landowner" or using permissions is meant to do. Just talking about how to do the effect.
[09:57] Tika Oberueng (tika.oberueng): still, if you just want to kick someone out, then it shouldn't matter where they go after... I could see landowners abusing that, sending griefers to their competition's land and such
[09:57] tehKellz (kelly.linden): 3 minute warning.
[09:57] Tika Oberueng (tika.oberueng): not to mention what would happen if someone were to be tp'd to say adult land
[09:57] S (sigma.avro): yes, seems avats cant be "booted"
[09:57] tehKellz (kelly.linden): I'll comment on that issue.
[09:57] Nexus Infinity (nexus.infinity): Yeah, it should be a voluntary thing. It should be obvious in some way
[09:58] Tika Oberueng (tika.oberueng): on the other hand, I'd support an object "tp to me" function
[09:58] Tika Oberueng (tika.oberueng): so that an object could "offer to teleport" to the object's location
[09:58] Hope of Tentium (hope.dreier): No the usual destination rules should take effect. Including down destinations or other suchlike
[09:58] Tika Oberueng (tika.oberueng): that would be useful for a lot of things
[09:59] tehKellz (kelly.linden): 1 minute .....
[09:59] Hope of Tentium (hope.dreier): Tika, like a 'come from'?
[09:59] Tika Oberueng (tika.oberueng): ok, one last quick question... does $ and # indeed get totally ignored by the script parser?
[10:00] S (sigma.avro): coucou
[10:00] S (sigma.avro): lol
[10:00] tehKellz (kelly.linden): I don't think so Tika but I haven't played with it.
[10:00] Tika Oberueng (tika.oberueng): well, I'd think if one wanted to teleport an agent say to a location... that it would be reasonable that the owner should have build rights
[10:01] tehKellz (kelly.linden): All right! Thank you everyone for coming, most on really short notice. :)
[10:01] Tika Oberueng (tika.oberueng): it seems that it does, haha... that you can put $ and # almost anywhere in a script and not trigger any error
[10:01] Nexus Infinity (nexus.infinity): Thanks, Kelly. See you next week!
[10:01] S (sigma.avro): yes, tp someone to a parcell where he is banned, and he will get gosted
[10:01] tehKellz (kelly.linden): See you guys later!