Scripting User group/Transcripts/2011-02-28

== List of Attendees ==
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== Transcript ==
[09:01]	:	Good mornin.
[09:01]	:	Hi, why not adding this to the OH calendar?
[09:01]	:	A combination of factors.
[09:01]	:	Everything is kind of frozen during the whole upgrade they are doing
[09:01]	:	which should go live this week (the 2nd I think)
[09:01]	:	ic, well, im glad you still keep a secret meeting for the worst LSL addicts ^^
[09:02]	:	:)
[09:02]	:	hehehe
[09:02]	:	I actually tweeted about it this time.
[09:02]	:	Kelly, is the a hold on new lsl functions?
[09:03]	:	nothing as specific as that, but we don't have anyone really working on adding any.
[09:03]	:	Hey, is your office hour no longer listed on the main office hours page? Could do with updating maybe? =)
[09:03]	:	What if it involved copying an existing function and adding 1 string parameter? Or is that asking too much?
[09:03]	:	Haravikk yeah. The whole thing is frozen for the last week+ while they upgrade the software
[09:03]	:	Ah, k!
[09:03]	:	Probably depends more on the details Jonathan.
[09:03]	:	ok, thanks
[09:04]	:	chrchr
[09:04]	:	hi :)
[09:05]	:	While you were away (welcome back btw, I missed the last couple meetings!), I've been going around poking other Lindens about SVC-6300, was wondering if you might be interested in speaking to some though, as all the server Lindens say it's a viewer issue, and all the viewer Lindens say it's a server issue, so none of them want to take it on board, even though everyone seems to have agreed it'd be a nice feature to have
[09:05]	:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/svc-6300,
[09:05]	:	is my pacifer still annoying ?
[09:06]	:	Haravikk looks like it is probably a combination.
[09:06]	:	I was hoping the Snowstorm team would do the viewer side but they don't want to unless someone will do the server part (which is mostly just add the function and a place to store the timestamp with the anim data)
[09:06]	:	not wearing my headphones yet cAro.
[09:06]	:	:)
[09:07]	:	Haravikk, yeah. I'm afraid it just probably isn't gonna get any attention right now.
[09:08]	:	Well the server side seems fairly straightforward, if you could poke someone to do it then I think the Snowstorm folks would be happy to implement the rest, the viewer side isn't that complex either really
[09:09]	:	it is more than just a function and storing the data, since I assume you want that data accessible to the viewer?
[09:09]	:	I mean overall it's a very simple feature we've been lacking forever, but the benefits would be pretty huge
[09:09]	:	It would require a server protocol change I guess
[09:10]	:	Yeah the timestamps just need to be paired with the avatar's active animations somehow, either in an anim-time pair or a separate corresponding list, depending what the restrictions of the protocol messages are
[09:11]	:	Bye...
[09:11]	:	kelly just crashed?
[09:11]	:	Did I break Kelly?
[09:12]	:	did i sit too close to Kelly?
[09:12]	:	is there an agenda up?
[09:12]	:	LL server are all in freeze mode...
[09:13]	:	+s
[09:14]	:	when LL will buy some http://www.fusionio.com/products/iodriveoctal/
[09:14]	:	Hmmm... Kelly doesn't move much...
[09:14]	:	6GB/s
[09:14]	:	Poof!
[09:14]	:	read/write
[09:14]	:	WB... again
[09:15]	:	win7 box completely blue screened, while rebooting logged in on the mac which crashed when I turned around.
[09:15]	:	so. Hi again!
[09:15]	:	Eep
[09:15]	 	offers to nail Kelly's feet to the ground
[09:15]	:	Where were we?
[09:16]	:	Well to continue; basically attaching a timestamp is only a slight extension as llStartAnimation() already store and sends an animation entry, all llStartAnimationSynced() would add is to store a timestamp along with that, of course I don't know anything about what the server-side code is like, but it seems simple enough
[09:17]	:	The main consideration is format of timestamp, and how to add it into the message protocol such that incompatible viewers can ignore the timestamps and just animate normally instead
[09:17]	:	The animation system is complex, and what you describe isn't really what the LSL functino does. The LSL function just pokes in to the currently completely server side control of animations system which eventually lets you (and everyone else) know what animation to play
[09:17]	:	if you add it to the end of the protocol block older viewers will still work
[09:17]	:	Extending that to have a timestamp for the LSL call is not *hard* but not trivial.
[09:19]	:	Still, the addition of the function would be a huge benefit compared to doing so IMO, as it takes 100-200 lines of LSL to handle dynamic preloading of animations properly, and even then you can't guarantee synchronisation in any consistent way
[09:19]	 	has a different question
[09:19]	:	Go for it Void.
[09:20]	:	any hope of seeing llLinkTargetOmeag or a PRIM_POS_LOCAL constant in the near future?
[09:20]	:	Probably not "near"
[09:20]	:	And more likely to get a PRIM_TARGET_OMEGA than a specific llLinkTargetOmega
[09:21]	:	I've actually got a list of missing set/gets/links somewhere, but I can't seem to find it
[09:21]	:	PRIM_LOCAL_POS... A dream...
[09:21]	:	pretty sure there is a jira for PIM_LOCAL_POS somewhere
[09:21]	:	Could you at least query someone familiar with the animation stuff about doing it? I've spent the last 3 or 4 months trying to get any kind of help and it's just nothing but brick-walls, everyone recognises the benefits of the function but no-one really wants to help, it should have been a capability when SL was first created =(
[09:22]	 	got one question
[09:23]	:	Haravikk, yeah, animation sync is a bitch
[09:24]	:	Go ahead Dora.
[09:24]	:	Haravikk: There isn't a team working on that kind of thing right now that I know of, no one I know to pass it off to. It is in Jira, which is where it should be.
[09:24]	:	Slice parameters in LSL for BOX, CYLINDER and PRISM primtypes?
[09:25]	:	when wil that come
[09:25]	:	?
[09:25]	:	But there are a LOT of feature suggestions in Jira and many are just as fervently desired by others.
[09:25]	:	PRIM_SLICE will arrive in our shoes for X-Mas... I won't say what year tho...
[09:25]	:	Dora: It is not currently planned.
[09:26]	:	we need it
[09:26]	:	how about just not reseting the slice parameter on type change so we could at least hack it into the scripts? =X
[09:27]	 	was rather upset when that got broken
[09:27]	:	besides, the current behaior seems bugged, instead of just ignoring slice, it removes it.
[09:27]	:	behavior*
[09:28]	:	That does sound like it could be a big.
[09:28]	:	bug
[09:29]	:	I can acknowledge the jira (SVC-5419) but I don't know when we could get to it.
[09:29]	:	It is a little tricky but doable.
[09:31]	 	passes the coffee around...
[09:31]	 	drops a pin to the silence: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1167
[09:31]	:	we already discussed about it. Just maiking noise so it dont get forgotten :Å
[09:31]	:	so, converstaionally, Kelly, is the the first new hour for your own separate scripting user group, and is this time stable for the forseeable future?
[09:32]	:	This time should be stable.
[09:33]	:	For the moment this user group is unofficial.
[09:33]	 	would love to see that one too Liisa..... would make all sorts of sandbox managment easier
[09:35]	:	I can comment on that jira again, but I stand by the statement - taking a list of UUIDs allows for abuse with lots of calls to return single objects or small lists at computer-speed rather than user action speed which is a concern.
[09:35]	:	im happy with just simple version to return all objects from owner X
[09:36]	:	(same thing that client can do, exept client cant do it as fast as griefer can rez)
[09:36]	:	On the scripting news front, the mono2-aware project that paves the way for upgrading to mono 2 and fixing the mono-sim-stall bug has been on the Le Tigre RC channel for a couple weeks now without incident. /me keeps his fingers crossed.
[09:37]	:	I'm not sure if it will be going out this week or maybe next week.
[09:37]	:	:)
[09:37]	:	Ho joy!
[09:37]	:	that's just the aware portion, correct?
[09:37]	:	Yes.
[09:37]	:	i can build mega prims O.o
[09:38]	:	still, cool to see it back on track
[09:38]	:	Once that is out it should only be a few more RC cycles to get the rest out.
[09:38]	:	can't wait til that bug is squish-ed
[09:39]	:	Me too.
[09:39]	:	Hmmm
[09:39]	:	Doesn't work for me... Sigh...
[09:39]	:	What doesn't?
[09:40]	:	Can't do megaprims...
[09:40]	:	although I have been seeing it not as severe before... so either most of those hig impact avs have managed to do womething to get banned from my region, or some of the stuff you guys have been working on has made a dent in it
[09:41]	:	there have been other projects that have improved general performance and region cross / TP performance specifically. Also probably more attachments with LSL scripts that don't trigger the bug as much.
[09:41]	:	there are many sim-freeze problems, i doubt mono is the only source
[09:41]	:	sorry, LSL scripts don't trigger the bug at all. But attachments with fewer mono scripts would trigger the bug "not as much".
[09:42]	:	Pretty sure it isn't.
[09:42]	:	especially since it seems to get worse over time
[09:42]	:	indicating some sort of resource leak
[09:42]	 	nods: I've been trying to educate in my region.... and I'm not seeing lists of 50-70MiB anymore lol
[09:42]	:	freshlty restarted sim doesn't freeze at all... where busy sim with 5 days uptime is useless
[09:43]	:	well the way we handle mono domains it actually makes some sense that it would be more of a problem to regions that had been running a long time. So now that we generally restart regions every week it probably is less of an issue.
[09:43]	:	Latif, soe it get heave prim rezzing traffic? I've notice that the more ghost prims I find on the region the worse the region behaves
[09:44]	:	what is a ghost prim?
[09:44]	:	(to you)
[09:44]	:	I thought a ghost prim was viewer only?
[09:44]	:	prim that gets deleted from simulation but remains in the physics engine
[09:44]	:	no
[09:44]	:	no longer registers for viewers but the region physics still registers it
[09:44]	:	I've seen at least 3 definitions of it recently.
[09:44]	:	it's when sim and havok disagree on whether an object exists
[09:44]	:	ok.
[09:44]	:	I assume there are jira reports for those bugs?
[09:44]	:	yeah
[09:45]	:	unselectable, unreturnable, and invisible
[09:45]	:	I have not seen a viewer-only ghost prim in a while
[09:45]	:	And that you pester Andrew/Falcon at the Sim User Group? ;)
[09:45]	:	oh yeah
[09:45]	:	I will tomorrow if I'm on at the right time =)
[09:45]	:	seems to happen when you delete object in a very lagged sim... the sim deletes it, but fails to propagate that change to the physics side
[09:46]	:	and it is not only phys engine. Sometimes you can sense them too. Not always. Sometimes you can even link to them with LSL and bring them back
[09:46]	:	so you end up with an invisible "wall" you can collide with, but can do nothing about
[09:46]	:	interesting.
[09:46]	:	you can detect them per parcel by comparing parcel prim counts to prim owners, but only if you have full return right for the parcel up to deeded objects
[09:46]	:	sim restart clears them
[09:46]	:	sounds like something stuck 'pending-delete'
[09:47]	:	I think andrew actually made some adjustments to that recently (not yet released)
[09:47]	:	maybe for that bug.
[09:47]	:	yep... it seems to be some interaction on object delete, perhaps asset server timing out, or the invetnory, or something
[09:47]	:	there was a related bug where an item that ghosted would return to the owner minus the root.... dunno the jira number offhand
[09:48]	:	and here is the jira (one of them) https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-255
[09:48]	:	yeah make sure to ask andrew about that at his office hours if he doesn't already know about it
[09:49]	:	he knows
[09:49]	:	cool
[09:49]	 	will endeavor to remind him though =X
[09:49]	:	There is some weridess about returning objects. Sometimes I get objects returned to be that were never mine, just because I'm the creator. I wonder has anyone seen that?
[09:50]	:	that would be a pretty serious bug.
[09:54]	:	Latif, maybe because of deeding? that's a new one on me
[09:54]	:	it used to be deeded objects went to the void (not you singer) when returned, now we track the last owner to return them to.
[09:55]	:	("used to be" was a long time ago)
[09:55]	 	nods: it's just the only scenario I knew of that the current owner (a group) would return an object to a different( previous) owner
[09:56]	:	It's object that rezzes poseballs, I sometimes see those poseballs returned to me from places where the "parent" object is. It's a rare occurence but it happens.
[09:56]	:	weird
[09:56]	:	oh, but I could see that. If the parent object was group deeded/owned then the rezzed object my have a last-owner of you.
[09:56]	:	could be that
[09:57]	:	well since these poseballs are shipped as content of objects, the last owner isn't updated
[09:57]	:	so when they get rezzed with lsl from a deeded object and then get returned i'd be gettting them?
[09:58]	:	quite alarming, could maybe be abused to get over the no-transfer flag of the prim inventory
[09:58]	:	that seems plausible
[09:58]	:	(it's not a big deal in this case since those are copy/transfer anyway)
[09:58]	:	Liisa, I doubt people rez no copy objects using LSL
[09:58]	:	not very frequently
[09:59]	:	and it couldn't really be abuse to get around no transfer.
[09:59]	:	Some ppl like to shoot themselves in the foot...
[09:59]	:	maybe, but could put copyable and no-transfer items to a prim and get them returned to desired person
[09:59]	:	since it would only go back to the creator
[09:59]	:	not an arbitrary person
[09:59]	:	hm
[09:59]	:	worth thinking about
[09:59]	:	well they'd be going back to the creator at worst... potential for griefing a creator.... I'll see if I can't get it to work on a solid basis for a repo if you'll file the jira Latif?
[09:59]	:	If you can get it to work Liisa, file a SEC- jira and get a bounty. :)
[10:00]	:	$L10k :)
[10:00]	:	... or I could learn to type faster...
[10:00]	:	lol
[10:00]	:	Ok, all out of time!
[10:00]	:	Next week back to triage, so a little more structured and a better agenda.
[10:01]	:	bye and thanks
[10:01]	:	Get your jira's here for us to talk about em:
[10:01]	:	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Kelly_Linden/script_jira_triage
[10:01]	:	ty
[10:01]	:	lol read my mind
[10:01]	:	Thanks for your time Kelly :)
[10:01]	:	of course.
[10:01]	:	tc all
[10:01]	:	can someone email me the log? I was split between computers due to my crashes
[10:02]	:	Fooooood! Laters...
[10:02]	 	would but I missed the front end
[10:02]	:	what is your mail address?
[10:02]	:	kelly@lindenlab.com
[10:03]	:	ill send it
[10:03]	:	thanks
 
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