Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2011.12.13

Simulator_User_Group
Prev 2011.12.09	Next 2011.12.16
== List of Speakers ==
Andrew Linden 	FBS Dagger 	JoyofRLC Acker
Kallista Destiny	Latif Khalifa 	Liisa Runo
Maruru Mayo 	Melvin Starbrook	Nalates Urriah
Pauline Darkfury	Qie Niangao 	Sahkolihaa Contepomi
Simon Linden 	Talarus Luan 	Vincent Nacon
Yuzuru Jewell 	 	
== Transcript ==
[11:59] Yuzuru Jewell: Hello Simon
[11:59] Simon Linden: Hello everyone
[11:59] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: hey Andrew.
[11:59] Kallista Destiny: Hey Andrew
[11:59] Andrew Linden: hello
[11:59] Talarus Luan: Greetings
[11:59] Maruru Mayo: hello
[11:59] Simon Linden: Feel free to rez yourself chairs, pillows, couches, etc...
[11:59] Melvin Starbrook: tala Andrew
[11:59] Kallista Destiny: This table woeks
[11:59] Kallista Destiny: works
[12:00] Meeter: Welcome to the Server User Group
[12:00] Liisa Runo: hiyas everybody
[12:00] Andrew Linden: Nice. This new table is much faster.
[12:00] Melvin Starbrook: wooot you both did sit down exactly at 12 :))
[12:00] Kallista Destiny: It's from the Myst tool
[12:00] Andrew Linden: Ah, so it isn't permenant?
[12:00] Simon Linden: We've been practicing that, Melvin :)
[12:00] Kallista Destiny: I'll leave it hee
[12:00] Melvin Starbrook: :))
[12:01] Kallista Destiny: here
[12:01] Kallista Destiny: Have a seat Pauline
[12:01] Pauline Darkfury: Hi folks :)
[12:02] Kallista Destiny: Hi Kelly
[12:02] Talarus Luan: Oh wow.. the gang is all here. :D
[12:02] Melvin Starbrook: tala Kelly :)
[12:03] Andrew Linden: Last Friday I was looking FBS Dagger's helecopter region crossing
[12:03] Andrew Linden: in the end I figured out that most (but not all) of the Blake Sea regions had been upgraded to the 3.0.0 kernel
[12:04] Talarus Luan: oops
[12:04] Andrew Linden: so I sent him over there to test. Didn't hear back so I'm assuming that it was working better rather than worse.
[12:04] Vincent Nacon: sorry, was late
[12:05] Simon Linden: Were they particularly big and heavy objects? I was surprised the crossings were as bad as they were in this region
[12:05] Vincent Nacon: and this seem.... kinda... tight
[12:06] Kallista Destiny chuckles it does at that
[12:06] Vincent Nacon: and are you sure it's not the size and weight instead of number of prims?
[12:06] Andrew Linden: On Friday the hosts with upgraded kernel were showing up with "channel" "Second Life RC TK" or something like that.
[12:06] Simon Linden: KT - Kernel Test
[12:06] Pauline Darkfury: "RC KT"
[12:06] Andrew Linden: However today that channel is not around. I wonder if the deploy is complete or not.
[12:07] Pauline Darkfury: From speaking to Oskar on Friday, it sounded like he was getting ready to ramp up the roll
[12:07] Pauline Darkfury: Approx 20% of the grid was running the new kernel at that point, without QA finding any confirmable issues with it
[12:07] Nalates Urriah: Grid Stats says they are rolling now... it looks like the Kernel roll.
[12:08] Andrew Linden: Looks like the schedule proceeds and is not done.
[12:08] Simon Linden: Right, I think once we felt good enough to go ahead, it wasn't limited to one RC channel, otherwise it would start shrinking the others
[12:08] FBS Dagger: Hi Andrew Simon ...no it didn't work btw
[12:08] Andrew Linden: Ah ok. Thanks for that feedback FBS. No improvement in the Blake Sea regions?
[12:08] Region Performance Remote Monitor v0.81 whispers: Configuration loaded.
[12:08] Region Performance Remote Monitor v0.81 whispers: 12102 bytes free.
[12:09] FBS Dagger: Hmm i have had a few compliaints my machines attract attention so people talk to me, its better but still some latency
[12:09] Region Performance Remote Monitor v0.81 whispers: Configuration loaded.
[12:09] Region Performance Remote Monitor v0.81 whispers: 12242 bytes free.
[12:09] FBS Dagger: and still the unsit event with my machines will send notecard shortly
[12:09] Region Performance Remote Monitor v0.81 whispers: Configuration loaded.
[12:09] Region Performance Remote Monitor v0.81 whispers: 12248 bytes free.
[12:10] Melvin Starbrook: i i did sail last week, all went fine.. didnt even crash i think :)))
[12:10] Pauline Darkfury: Just checked 3 of my regions which were on KT, they are now just showing "Second Life Server", so I'd guess KT has served its purpose and is gone
[12:11] FBS Dagger: yup a few of the sims i tested came up as that
[12:11] Andrew Linden: FBS, the fewer prims and scripts the better a vehicle will cross. I take it you've already optimized as much as you are willing for that helecopter?
[12:11] FBS Dagger: hmm kinda yes though i am working on script reduction
[12:11] Andrew Linden: Pauline, name one of your three regions that was on KT.
[12:12] Pauline Darkfury: Virrat
[12:12] Andrew Linden: I'll check the kernel version...
[12:12] Pauline Darkfury: or one I got specifically moved to KT, Duvillier
[12:12] FBS Dagger: but i am not able to continue supply those machines if they cannot cross without unsitting the pilot and becoming remote controle vehicles
[12:13] Pauline Darkfury: I had maybe a 1-2 dozen regions on KT, only quickly checked 3 now to see if it looked like KT was gone
[12:13] Andrew Linden: The host running Virrat is using kernel 3.0.0 so only the KT channel has vanished.
[12:13] Andrew Linden: The new kernel remains.
[12:14] Latif Khalifa: they did say something about removing information such as channel names from the sim version number
[12:14] Pauline Darkfury: Yup, that seems right, Oskar was feeling fairly confident in KT on Friday, and my own observations were that there were no issues specific to it
[12:14] Andrew Linden: Well, I note that the sailing groups are not here in force. I take that as a sign things are getting better.
[12:15] Kallista Destiny chuckles
[12:15] JoyofRLC Acker: *cough cough
[12:15] Kallista Destiny: Occupy LL ?
[12:15] Latif Khalifa: lol
[12:15] FBS Dagger: lol
[12:15] Andrew Linden: Ah, there you are JoyofRLC.
[12:15] JoyofRLC Acker: curates egg is the phrase that springs to mind
[12:15] Talarus Luan: A shortage of Torches and Pitchforks, maybe? :)
[12:15] Andrew Linden: Any news on that subject?
[12:15] JoyofRLC Acker: there off being sharpened actyua;;y
[12:15] Vincent Nacon: Occupy LL and nothing will ever get done.
[12:15] JoyofRLC Acker: seriosuly ...
[12:16] JoyofRLC Acker: my perceptions is that that things are mixed
[12:16] Talarus Luan: SL has its own way to handle an Occupy protest... sim crashes when the crowd gets too big. :P
[12:16] Andrew Linden: Still mixed wouldn't surprise me.
[12:16] Pauline Darkfury: Yeah, there's not really been a magic bullet for crossing issues yet, just more small progress?
[12:16] Vincent Nacon: well I've been reading some library source in Havok, mainly over Vehicle stuff
[12:17] FBS Dagger: But i don't understand around 7 weeks ago i flew a massive aircraft around the RUE university sims without a problem
[12:17] Vincent Nacon: I noticed RayCast was used for the wheel... along with LinearCast
[12:17] FBS Dagger: now i can't cross one
[12:18] JoyofRLC Acker: ...as i was saying ....
[12:18] Andrew Linden: In other news, I've completed some code that makes 8-neighbor hosts mostly compatible with 4-neighbor hosts, so we should be able to deploy those in a channel without problems.
[12:18] JoyofRLC Acker: (sorry , client crash)
[12:18] Andrew Linden: I still need to review and test, but theoretically it works.
[12:18] JoyofRLC Acker: oh , youve moved on?
[12:18] Vincent Nacon: hopefully
[12:18] FBS Dagger: thought i did note that fixed wing performes better than helicopters
[12:18] JoyofRLC Acker: Andrew I swear you did that to me deliberately yes?
[12:18] Talarus Luan: What differences were there between 4 and 8?
[12:18] Vincent Nacon: the sims in corner
[12:19] Andrew Linden: sorry JoyofRLC, please continue.
[12:19] Vincent Nacon: instead only by sides
[12:19] Talarus Luan: Yah, I got that much.. meaning code-wise. :P
[12:19] Vincent Nacon: to help with "buffering" to speak plainly
[12:19] JoyofRLC Acker: lol, ill try and be brief... id say things are basically getting better but this is just a perception , nohard data
[12:19] JoyofRLC Acker: based on my own observations, others may differ
[12:20] Melvin's Windup key TO whispers: Melvin Starbrook winds up the key unassisted.
[12:20] JoyofRLC Acker: sim crossing per se are def getting better i think
[12:20] JoyofRLC Acker: but lag and other random probs much more up and down
[12:20] Vincent Nacon: "things are looking up, but moral are unseen!"
[12:20] Pauline Darkfury: Well, one area where there seem to have been more issues in the last few weeks is asset lag
[12:20] FBS Dagger: yes there is low moral out there
[12:20] Simon Linden: Given what rolled out recently, I wouldn't expect a significant change in the past few weeks
[12:20] JoyofRLC Acker: and today very choppy actually blake is a mess i think restats are going on
[12:20] Pauline Darkfury: Random slow rez/take/delete/return stuff
[12:20] JoyofRLC Acker: i would not disagree with that
[12:20] Talarus Luan: low moral or low morale? :P
[12:21] Vincent Nacon: was joking with a quote from SimCity 2000
[12:21] Pauline Darkfury: Or fail to attach, fail to rez, etc
[12:21] FBS Dagger: morale
[12:21] Vincent Nacon: err yeah Morale, my bad
[12:21] JoyofRLC Acker: regarding the 'protest movement' ... i think what happened was just a boiling over of a sense that as far as wec ould see nothing was happeing
[12:21] JoyofRLC Acker: i think ppl accept that there is a lot happening rt now
[12:22] Pauline Darkfury: I get the feeling that the asset lag type stuff is either network or the asset servers
[12:22] Vincent Nacon: anyway, I figured maybe I could get Falcon's interest to the table? (if people don't mind talking about vehicle and Havok)
[12:22] JoyofRLC Acker: my own view is we have to wait til the restarts etc are done for the Kernal thingy
[12:22] FBS Dagger: Agreed
[12:22] Melvin's Windup key TO whispers: Melvin Starbrook winds up the key unassisted.
[12:22] JoyofRLC Acker: so pls dont quote me as saying its all good
[12:22] JoyofRLC Acker: not yet
[12:22] Andrew Linden: Ok.
[12:23] JoyofRLC Acker: today isa n example
[12:23] JoyofRLC Acker: we had to move our race form Blake into Sailors Cove
[12:23] JoyofRLC Acker: but having done that, we had some great racing
[12:24] JoyofRLC Acker: the one ting i would report is getting more occasions mid sim
[12:24] JoyofRLC Acker: of things like flying or rubber banding that i used to think wre mainly sim order
[12:24] JoyofRLC Acker: im sure this is grossly inaa=ccurate but i sometomes feel youve spred the trouble wider and thinner
[12:24] JoyofRLC Acker: so we dont crash
[12:24] JoyofRLC Acker: but more jittersinside the sims
[12:25] JoyofRLC Acker: just a perception
[12:25] JoyofRLC Acker: /*
[12:25] Pauline Darkfury: You're always going to get short lag spikes and minor rubber band effects inside a sim, from people entering & leaving, at least for the short to medium future
[12:25] Simon Linden: Those are likely to be lag events caused by others leaving or entering the region
[12:25] Simon Linden: or maybe rezzing
[12:26] Vincent Nacon: high-prims count rezzing, yeah
[12:26] JoyofRLC Acker: ahh all the boats that are following me you mean?
[12:26] JoyofRLC Acker: roflol
[12:26] Talarus Luan: Yup
[12:26] Vincent Nacon: something like less than 20 is mostly unnoticeable
[12:26] Simon Linden: well, if you leave the region first, they get the lag event for it :)
[12:26] Andrew Linden: The sim FPS detector chart behind Telarus would be able to show any sim FPS spikes.
[12:26] Talarus Luan: sim crossing will give you short lag spikes if you are in the sim
[12:26] Pauline Darkfury: Yup, the old sim-freeze on rez/derez is still there, just vastly reduced from what it used to be
[12:26] Vincent Nacon: depends number of textures and scripts in it
[12:26] FBS Dagger: So that is the equivelent of stealing wind?
[12:26] Pauline Darkfury: number of textures doesn't make much difference, or shouldn't
[12:27] JoyofRLC Acker: <--- thinking up new tactics
[12:27] Andrew Linden: Also, you know how to view the sim FPS in the stats window of the viewer? JoyofRLC?
[12:27] JoyofRLC Acker: lol
[12:27] JoyofRLC Acker: Yes
[12:27] Pauline Darkfury: number of scripts certainly does have an impact on rez freeze
[12:27] Vincent Nacon: not if it came preloaded function, it does, Pauline
[12:27] JoyofRLC Acker: i try to look when i ccan but when racing we tend to be a bit preoccupioed
[12:27] Talarus Luan: Yes, I cause significant pauses when I show up. :P
[12:27] JoyofRLC Acker: lol
[12:27] JoyofRLC Acker: NUMBER or memory?
[12:27] Pauline Darkfury: preloaded function?
[12:27] Vincent Nacon: on_rez event
[12:28] Vincent Nacon: pretty common with some loaded features cars
[12:28] Talarus Luan: Memory is consistent, so number is proportional to the lag experienced.
[12:28] FBS Dagger: I think its best to try to keep on-rez events low
[12:28] Vincent Nacon: aye
[12:28] Vincent Nacon: anyway.... >_> is Falcon in?
[12:28] Pauline Darkfury: number of scripts tends to be the major impact, not memory, unless you're looking at extreme cases
[12:28] FBS Dagger: i mean imagine if you had to hop, scratch your nose and catch a bullet in a few seconds
[12:28] JoyofRLC Acker: id guess most boats dont have more than one
[12:28] Andrew Linden: No, Falcon is not available ATM.
[12:29] Vincent Nacon: aw
[12:29] Pauline Darkfury: And, generally, the memory number you see reported has very little relationship to the actual memory used
[12:29] JoyofRLC Acker: but are you saying that 10 x 100 line scritps is worse than 1 x 1000 (for same memory)?
[12:29] Talarus Luan: Yup
[12:29] Vincent Nacon: depends, Joy
[12:29] Simon Linden: yes Joy, that's worse
[12:29] Qie Niangao: definitely
[12:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[12:30] Talarus Luan: Just in terms of loading/sim transfer
[12:30] Pauline Darkfury: yes, 10 x 6.4kB scripts will be about 5-10x worse than 1x 64kB
[12:30] JoyofRLC Acker: noooo
[12:30] Vincent Nacon: depends on what event and function it use but generally, yes
[12:30] JoyofRLC Acker: i meant 10 x 6.4 K vs 1 x 64 k ?
[12:30] Pauline Darkfury: Number of lines in the script is a very poor way to measure them in terms of impact
[12:30] Simon Linden: At a basic level, even without crossings, that means the region has more scripts to go through and try to run each frame
[12:30] Vincent Nacon: Joy, one script is a one time call in whole
[12:30] Vincent Nacon: 10 is 10 times more
[12:30] JoyofRLC Acker: (I use llGetUsedMemory or 65536 - that to monitor)
[12:31] JoyofRLC Acker: nods ok
[12:31] Pauline Darkfury: llGetUsedMemory is the only thing which returned accurate memory usage
[12:31] Talarus Luan: The problem is that most scripts always allocate 16KB (for LSLVM) and 64kb (for Mono) even if they don't use it all up.
[12:31] JoyofRLC Acker: some objects have multiple email scripts
[12:31] JoyofRLC Acker: each is small
[12:31] JoyofRLC Acker: but they are getting around the sleep effect
[12:31] Qie Niangao: Even do-nothing scripts -- texture anim, static particles, etc. -- matter some, especially to rezzing into a new sim.
[12:31] Talarus Luan: Very very few scripts have implemented the new llSetMemoryLimit function.
[12:31] Melvin Starbrook: even a simple rotation script?
[12:31] Talarus Luan: Yup
[12:31] Pauline Darkfury: llGetObjectDetails and the parcel script memory return a number which isn't the actual memory usage, it's a theoretical max that is not normally reached (or even approached in the case of tiny scripts which don't set their max memory lower)
[12:32] JoyofRLC Acker: sounds like something we should follow up on .... small scripts can limit their memory?
[12:32] Vincent Nacon: Francis's Shadow car is a good example of it... too many scripts for what it needed.
[12:32] Pauline Darkfury: Limiting memory on small scripts has zero impact on performance
[12:32] Talarus Luan: yeah, llSetMemoryLimit needs broader adoption
[12:32] Pauline Darkfury: Mono scripts only use the memory they need, regardless of the limit set
[12:32] Qie Niangao: Small Mono scripts use less memory automatically. setting the limit just reduces the amount of memory *reported*
[12:33] JoyofRLC Acker: nods
[12:33] Talarus Luan: But it has to go paw-in-paw with overall better efficient scripting practices.
[12:33] Qie Niangao: (well, not *just*... I mean, the script will blow up if it exceeds that limit.)
[12:33] JoyofRLC Acker: this may not be the place .... but is garbage collection a bit spotty?
[12:33] Vincent Nacon: blow? thought it was screaming in debug chat first then blow
[12:34] JoyofRLC Acker: when i track memeory usage as a scfript executes
[12:34] JoyofRLC Acker: going through the ame cycle of user actsions
[12:34] JoyofRLC Acker: the memeory usage seems to not be consistent
[12:35] Pauline Darkfury: unless the dynamic variations are large or you see signs of a large memory leak case, it's really not worth worrying about small amounts of memory
[12:35] JoyofRLC Acker: its is Pauline when a script has < 1000 bytes free LOL
[12:36] Talarus Luan: Sailing close to the wind, eh? :P
[12:36] Talarus Luan: *too close
[12:36] JoyofRLC Acker: in a nutcshell Talaurus
[12:36] Pauline Darkfury: If that's Mono and it's within 1kB of the 64kB limit, then yeah, you probably really should split the script (unless you can make it much more efficient)
[12:36] JoyofRLC Acker: anyway thats probably for a script forum , i shold let someone else speak.
[12:37] Andrew Linden: The table is open. I was letting the experts on script memory answer all the questions.
[12:37] Kallista Destiny: Monday Kellys scripting Coffee klatch
[12:37] Vincent Nacon: muhaha!
[12:37] JoyofRLC Acker: sounds like donuts?
[12:37] Pauline Darkfury: So, something which is claimed to be worse from today's roll. SVC-7265
[12:37] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7265
[#SVC-7265] PosJump breaks if object-entry is disabled
[12:37] Liisa Runo: kinda offtopic, anyone know why the calendar got removed from http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Office_Hours ? and if it is coming back? i found it very usefull
[12:38] Pauline Darkfury: I've tried a couple of posJump TP beams and they seem to be working ok for me, so it's not a 100% breakage
[12:38] Vincent Nacon: yeah, been using it on my Phone to alert/reminds me
[12:38] Simon Linden: The breakage has to do with teh parcel layout of the region, Pauline
[12:38] Andrew Linden: Dunno why the calendar was removed, but as far as I know this User Group will still be meeting.
[12:38] Pauline Darkfury: Yeah, but people seem to be saying there's a new breakage case, not down to parcel perms
[12:39] Talarus Luan: Yay, PosJump. <.<
[12:39] Talarus Luan: That was a useful function, though.. jumping through blocked parcels fixed some teleporter issues.
[12:39] Simon Linden: I fixed another bug that was dealing with a case of rezzing slightly outside of the region and bypassing parcel restrictions (because it wasn't really on any parcel) ... this affected that hack of putting in huge X Y coordinates, so the parcel at the NE corner of the region gets checked for that move permission
[12:40] Melvin Starbrook: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:User_Groups is working Liisa :)
[12:40] Pauline Darkfury: It still works for that case for me, but I routinely allow anyone-object-entry on pretty much all of my land
[12:40] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: I think Oz removed it because no one at LL fixed the permissions on it.
[12:40] Liisa Runo: Evil Sion, dont break it, it was usefull
[12:40] Liisa Runo: Simon*
[12:40] Pauline Darkfury: Right, I was wondering if the new breakage were due to parcel perms at 255,255
[12:41] Vincent Nacon: not working for me, Melvin
[12:41] Pauline Darkfury: In the cases I tested, I own 255,255 (and 0,0, which is where you visually appear to go via)
[12:41] Talarus Luan: So we need to make a 16sqm parcel in the NE corner with open permissions now, eh? :P
[12:41] Melvin Starbrook: i do have a script in my shelll which announces office hours.. buts its a bit outated..
[12:41] Simon Linden: That may help it, yes
[12:41] Simon Linden: but if someone comes along and fills that parcel up, you might then get blocked
[12:42] Melvin Starbrook: maybe you need to login first?
[12:42] Andrew Linden: Simon, doesn't it now check parcel perms across the border? Or not in the posJump hack case?
[12:42] Melvin's Windup key TO: Melvin Starbrook's windup key has run out.
[12:43] Melvin's Windup key TO whispers: Melvin Starbrook winds up the key unassisted.
[12:43] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-22
[#SVC-22] Vehicles crossing region borders aren't always treated as vehicles and can get incorrectly returned if the destination parcel is no-entry or parcel-full
[12:43] Liisa Runo: (also the UG page dont show calendar for me (the calendar that showed you that OH is about to start in 15 min)
[12:44] FBS Dagger: hmm
[12:44] Talarus Luan: I guess this should segue naturally into something I was going to ask at Kelly's, but when are we getting llTeleportAgent? I mean, now that Linden Realms has it. :D
[12:44] Simon Linden: With the huge X, Y values in the posJump hack, those will be far outside teh neighbor region, so it won't find it there
[12:44] Pauline Darkfury: So, any ideas on what sort of timescale we might have for an official llPosJump(), as discussed on Friday?
[12:45] Simon Linden: You mean llSetRegionPos() ?
[12:45] Talarus Luan: That works, too
[12:45] Pauline Darkfury: Yup, that name works too :)
[12:46] Simon Linden: uh, in short, no promises ... but I'm much rather work on that than re-breaking code so posJump works again
[12:46] Liisa Runo: llSLPPFast(n,[REGION_POS,....
[12:46] Talarus Luan: Anything to finally end reliance on WarpPos/PosJump/Infinite_SetPos/etc
[12:46] Simon Linden: This is for root objects only, so not a link function
[12:46] Liisa Runo: llSLPPFast(LINK_ROOT,[REGION_POS,....
[12:46] Talarus Luan: Well, you can just have it apply link limits a la PRIM_POSITION for child links
[12:46] Pauline Darkfury: Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. There's very real broken content right now, and it really is rather a big deal. If we can fast-track the official replacement, the broken issue kinda diminishes
[12:46] Simon Linden: The idea (if, hypothetically I was to do this...) would be integer llSetRegionPos(vector anywhere_in_the_region);
[12:47] Simon Linden: Returns 1 or 0 indicating it worked or was blocked by permissions
[12:47] Talarus Luan: Please only check destination location permissions. <.<
[12:47] Pauline Darkfury: Yup, that sounds pretty good
[12:47] Simon Linden: No sleep, no delays, but probably stops the script from running in that frame (so the object will actually move)
[12:47] Andrew Linden: What about setting position into a neighboring region?
[12:47] Simon Linden: Right, it would only check destination permissions, so you can move magically anywhere within the region
[12:48] Pauline Darkfury: Bonus points if you can make it work cleanly with the 8-regions stuff
[12:48] Melvin's Windup key TO whispers: Melvin Starbrook winds up the key unassisted.
[12:49] Simon Linden: This would be within one region only, to avoid crossings and the permissions checks that are needed up-front
[12:49] Talarus Luan: Is OK, I don't mind doing staged region crossings.
[12:49] Simon Linden: Some magical future version might do cross-regions, but that would add a fair amount of complexity
[12:49] Talarus Luan: WarpPos could be used to cross lots of regions (PosJump too, I think), but it blows up with avatars regularly.
[12:50] Pauline Darkfury: single region is good enough for the current problems
[12:50] Talarus Luan: yup
[12:50] Pauline Darkfury: Just would be super-magic-wonderful if ultimately it could do adjacent regions cleanly as well
[12:50] Talarus Luan: llSetRegionPos to edge, llSetPos across edge, llSetRegionPos in next sim.
[12:51] Melvin's Windup key TO whispers: Melvin Starbrook winds up the key unassisted.
[12:51] Talarus Luan: Has there been any public discussion of the goodies being used in Linden Realms trickling down to the rest of us peons? :P
[12:51] JoyofRLC Acker: llSuperZDuperWarPos(anyXY, routeType) ????
[12:51] Liisa Runo: and giant pile of vector checks before every move to know if the script is about to cross, and pile of sub scripts to try to make it sync since there is no llSLPPFast version of it
[12:52] Andrew Linden: Yeah, I'd prefer that it work for moving across region boundaries so that the alternating cycle Talarus describes wouldn't be necessary.
[12:52] Talarus Luan: I'd prefer it, too, but I am being a pragmatist here. :P
[12:52] Pauline Darkfury: Yup, that would also be good for the case of someone owning 2 parcels in regions A & B, where they don't have land close to the boundary, for TP pad type stuff between them
[12:53] Pauline Darkfury: But the immediate issue is single region, and I'd prefer that fix to be on the fast track
[12:53] Simon Linden: Right, I agree that doing cross region movements would be best, but doing the simple case first is more likely to actually happen
[12:53] Andrew Linden: No public discussion about the Linden Realms feature set that I know of, except some limited discussion in this User Group.
[12:53] Pauline Darkfury: If you can do the single region version in a clean way that leaves the door open to do 8-neighbours in due course, that would probably be about the best short term thing
[12:54] Simon Linden: There are still some really big issues on permissions and griefing with those features
[12:54] Talarus Luan: Heh.. yeah.. like no throttle of TP requests? :P
[12:54] Melvin Starbrook: especially the tp thing...
[12:54] Andrew Linden: I mentioned on Friday that the team working on LR agree that it would be cool to open up some of those features. Grief TP's were the main concern.
[12:54] Pauline Darkfury: Yup, most of the discussion here has been to avoid invisible spam servers being force attached to you silently as you explore, plus avoid the llTransformAVIntoPinball() version of llTeleportAgent ;)
[12:54] Simon Linden: Right Pauline, I see nothing in the current API that would prevent it from expanding to adjacent regions, although I'm sure someone will build scripts that don't check the positions carefully, and will break when we change it :)
[12:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[12:55] Talarus Luan: Well, we discussed TP griefing to death in the comments in SCR-16
[12:55] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SCR-16
[#SCR-16] New Feature Request - llTeleportAgent
[12:55] Andrew Linden: Maint concern that we talked about here anyway. No one wants to be maliciously TP'ed by surprise.
[12:55] Talarus Luan: I thought we pretty much had nailed it, but I guess it was ignored by whomever implemented it.
[12:56] Pauline Darkfury: Not really ignored, that's why we don't have the features ourselves yet
[12:56] Andrew Linden: Wow, that's a long discussion. I wonder what the summary is.
[12:56] Talarus Luan: O.o
[12:56] FBS Dagger: A quick question please
[12:57] Pauline Darkfury: So, before the end, anyone else finding that unsit randomly has become unsit-and-orbit?
[12:57] Pauline Darkfury: I can't seem to create a reliable repro on unsit-and-orbit, just it happens moderately often
[12:57] FBS Dagger: yup happens to me
[12:57] Talarus Luan: Not recently.. back in the old days, I recall it happening once in a blue moon
[12:57] Melvin Starbrook: yes
[12:57] FBS Dagger: that exactly what happens on my vehicles
[12:57] Vincent Nacon: the long discussion seem to be fueled by fear of being TPed
[12:58] Pauline Darkfury: I'm thinking it's the Havok 2011.x update not so long ago
[12:58] Melvin's Windup key TO whispers: Melvin Starbrook winds up the key unassisted.
[12:58] Pauline Darkfury: But even cases where I relatively reliably get orbited don't do it 100% of the time
[12:58] Andrew Linden: "Unsit and orbit"?
[12:58] Andrew Linden: Where "obit" means being thrown far away?
[12:58] Andrew Linden: er... orbit
[12:58] Talarus Luan: Andrew, filter for Haravikk Mistral's comments, mostly towards the end; they summarize and organize a bit of the chaos.
[12:58] Kallista Destiny: High
[12:58] Vincent Nacon whispers: or being in <0,0,0>
[12:59] Vincent Nacon: ?
[12:59] Pauline Darkfury: Vertically upwards until you hit something suitably solid, or run out of momentum
[12:59] Vincent Nacon: haven't seen something like that in a long while
[12:59] Pauline Darkfury: Unchecked, you get shoved about 200-500m upwards
[12:59] Vincent Nacon: but only <0,0,0> lately
[12:59] Talarus Luan: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Haravikk_Mistral/llTeleportAgent/Draft
[12:59] Pauline Darkfury: If there's a good solid prim in the way, you get pinned against it for around 5s or so
[12:59] Talarus Luan: I think that is the summary that she came up with
[12:59] Vincent Nacon: sounds like intented push
[13:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[13:00] Vincent Nacon: intended*
[13:00] Pauline Darkfury: It's not a scripted push
[13:00] Andrew Linden: Hrm... I too would suspect the Havok upgrade if the unsit and orbit is a recent problem.
[13:00] Pauline Darkfury: it's something odd being done by Havok when you unsit (or llUnSit() is used on you)
[13:00] Talarus Luan: Isn't that the old interpenetration problem?
[13:00] Kallista Destiny: Thank you Simon, Andrew and Kelly
[13:00] Pauline Darkfury: Yeah, it's hard to put a precise date on it, but seems like it's last few weeks
[13:00] Andrew Linden: I sounds kinda like the penetration resolution code is kicking in, but dunno why it would perist all the way to hundreds of meters.
[13:01] Kallista Destiny: Rl calls
[13:01] Vincent Nacon: I dunno
[13:01] Pauline Darkfury: Something like that, Andrew
[13:01] Pauline Darkfury: but rather than just settle you on top of whatever you were sitting on and is nearby, it's a huge shove
[13:01] Talarus Luan: Used to be, a sittarget prim outside the vehicle was used, so when you stood up, it was outside of the vehicle's hull
[13:02] Vincent Nacon: wait... you sure there wasn't a mega prim in the area?
[13:02] Andrew Linden: Pauline, you were asking if anyone had a reliable repro? So it is hard to reproduce reliably?
[13:02] Talarus Luan: If there was, a vehicle would likely not be inside of it before you stood up. :P
[13:02] Pauline Darkfury: I've tried, even the chair that seems to do it frequently for me doesn't do it reliably
[13:02] Vincent Nacon: actually...
[13:03] Pauline Darkfury: If I had a repro, I'd be giving a Jira number for it ;)
[13:03] Vincent Nacon: it is possible
[13:03] Vincent Nacon: but not likely though..
[13:03] Pauline Darkfury: In one case, it is happening inside a 1024x1024x100 grief prim that's 2 regions away, but that shouldn't exist for local physics, right?
[13:03] Talarus Luan: Nope
[13:04] Pauline Darkfury: And it's not 100% reliable even there
[13:04] Andrew Linden: FBS, you're wondering if you should stop developing the helecopter?
[13:04] FBS Dagger: yes
[13:04] Vincent Nacon: yeah, wait for new vehicle API
[13:04] Vincent Nacon: muhaha!
[13:04] FBS Dagger: i mean i have a whole line waiting to roll out
[13:04] FBS Dagger: and a huge plane
[13:05] Vincent Nacon: too bad Havok doesn't have library source for helicopters
[13:05] Vincent Nacon: nor planes I think
[13:05] Melvin's Windup key TO: Melvin Starbrook's windup key has run out.
[13:05] Andrew Linden: Big vehicles don't cross boundaries well, but there is a project underway to try to fix region crossings for vehicles... its final delivery may be months out Don't know the timeline for it.
[13:05] Melvin's Windup key TO whispers: Liisa Runo winds up Melvin Starbrook's key.
[13:05] FBS Dagger: wow
[13:05] Melvin Starbrook: hihi thank you :))
[13:06] FBS Dagger: so looks like i am back to attachement crap vehicles
[13:06] Vincent Nacon: yup
[13:06] Pauline Darkfury: I'd say keep working on your current stuff, just expect that things may have changed a lot in 3-6 months, maybe
[13:06] Andrew Linden: My advice would be... make a smaller lighter helecopter first to see the best it can be, then scale up until it doesn't work.
[13:06] Talarus Luan: Changed for the better, is the hope. :P
[13:07] FBS Dagger: hmm
[13:07] Andrew Linden: Yes, that is the hope.
[13:07] Vincent Nacon: well anywho... meeting over, don't miss your lunch
[13:07] FBS Dagger: well thats a bit disheartening but i guess i have to wait
[13:07] Andrew Linden: Thanks for coming everyone.
[13:07] Liisa Runo: thanks everybody
[13:07] Pauline Darkfury: Thanks, Lindens
[13:07] Pauline Darkfury: Have a good afternoon :)
[13:07] Nalates Urriah: Thx Lindens
[13:07] Vincent Nacon: ahh I got the sit bug...
[13:07] Talarus Luan: Well, SL progress is an exercise in waiting.
[13:07] Talarus Luan: Stop animating me. :P
[13:07] Melvin Starbrook: thank you, havea nice day all :)
[13:08] Vincent Nacon: nope, that didn't work
[13:08] Talarus Luan: The table poofed
[13:08] Simon Linden: Thanks everyone for coming today
[13:08] Talarus Luan: Yupyup. Until next time. :) Thanks!
Simulator_User_Group
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