Open Source Meeting/2010-04-22

== Transcript ==
[13:39]	:	Boo?
[13:40]	:	meow?
[13:40]	 	
[13:40]	:	Hi
[13:40]	:	hi
[13:41]	:	hello :) meow
[13:42]	 	Онлайн
[13:49]	 	speaks....then sees there is no voice on this parcel.
[13:49]	:	meow
[13:53]	:	so that Hippo Award info seems old.. is there still hippo awards?
[13:54]	 	sidles up to Aimee Linden and <winks>
[13:54]	:	hmm, I dunno is the answer to that
[13:54]	:	meow
[13:54]	:	This year's winners will receive
Cash gifts to their Second Life accounts (Contributor of the Year receives US$500, other category winners each receive US$300)
[13:55]	:	the last I remember about it was back before Rob left
[13:55]	:	Rob was in charge of it, wasn't he?
[13:55]	:	I just did a snowglobe-trunk build and logged into the beta grid. There is a bug on the map, the translucent tringle showing where and what direction you are looking on the map is no longer position correctory.
[13:55]	:	it was to be postponed to January of this year, but there's no one in his role to drive it at the moment
[13:55]	:	hi all
[13:55]	:	hey aimee :)
[13:56]	:	you should get them to restart it.. seems a nice reward fr people that worl hard on the open source viewer
[13:56]	:	yep, that's a known bug in Viewer 2.0 Tech :(
[13:56]	:	'Morning. I missed the question that Aimee answered. What was postponed?
[13:56]	:	Its circuling around a point instead.
[13:56]	:	hmm, I think a fix for it has gone into viewer-trunk though, so should surface in snowglobe, I'm not sre
[13:56]	:	*sure
[13:56]	:	hippo awards
[13:57]	:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Innovation_Awards
[13:57]	:	For innovation, Kristens viewer would be a good canadate.
[13:57]	:	yes, I hope we would when we can find a replacement for Rob, soon I hope
[13:57]	:	Tech, http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-18648
[13:57]	:	[#VWR-18648] View frustum on World Map rotates about a location that is NOT the current agent location unless the map view origin is at 0, 0.
[13:58]	:	Many of my JIRA issues have simply vanished but I can still see that one.
[13:59]	:	hey merov
[13:59]	:	Hi Merov :-)
[13:59]	:	hey meowov
[13:59]	:	yay merov! salut
[13:59]	:	yep, that bug's apparently fixed in trunk
[13:59]	:	Yep, that it. But i';me esperence a 90 dregree offset instead the zero degree offset in that pic.
[13:59]	:	hi guys
[13:59]	:	Himerov
[14:00]	:	I'll try to reframe from meching that <censored>
[14:00]	:	Tech, depends on which direction you are facing.
[14:00]	:	it's 2pm and there's nothing new in the agenda
[14:00]	:	Well done on the TPV changes -- Love the unambiguous clause 8.f, that will restore a lot of lost confidence. :-)
[14:01]	:	see you next week then!
[14:01]	:	haha
[14:01]	:	bye
[14:01]	:	heh
[14:01]	:	unchanged from last week: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source_Meeting/Agenda
[14:01]	:	The only stuff left in the tpv is tech details and minor stuff.
[14:01]	:	i see all the artwork bundles got nuked
[14:01]	:	well, the main thing I've been working on is 1.x build (internal)
[14:02]	:	Aimee: some people need a laughter track to go with that, aka. smilie :P
[14:02]	:	I'm still struggling with it as the build system changed a lot
[14:02]	:	The tpv overshadow stuff, so the agenda didn't get any new stuff.
[14:02]	:	oh merov, remember me telling you i couldnt get on 2.0?
[14:02]	:	anyway, I'm now porting back v2.0 build stuff... no fin... not that you care or can help me with that...
[14:02]	:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Source_downloads <- all snowglobe artwork and libs downloads on this page give access denied
[14:02]	:	i have not changed anything since then, but it decided to let me on now!
[14:03]	:	2.0 has a mind of its own i guess
[14:03]	:	for 1.3.2
[14:03]	:	For snowglobe stuff, perhaps placing the downloads on something _other_ then S3 to prevent nuking of files?
[14:03]	:	Latif: let me check that but I guess it's because things have been pulled out (which is the reason why I'm trying to build them back)
[14:04]	:	Merov: since you're backporting to SG 1.x, can we take it that it will be a long-lived branch, unlike Viewer 1.x which T said would be dropped as soon as two releases of 2.x are out?
[14:04]	:	can these permanent downloads be put on http://secondlife.com/developers/opensource/downloads .... pages
[14:04]	:	SG 1.x will be long lived I think
[14:05]	:	several months for sure
[14:05]	:	now it's impossible to build sg 1.x either from svn or from these source code drops
[14:05]	:	I'm surprised 2.0 hasn't been dropped yet..
[14:05]	:	as am i phantom
[14:05]	:	Latif: I know, that's what I'm working on since 1 full week now
[14:05]	:	2.0 is more of a curse then a blessing
[14:06]	:	Yep.
[14:06]	:	no offence meant to the hard work put into it ofcourse
[14:06]	:	i just think that stuff linked from http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Source_downloads should have a permanent home
[14:07]	:	Yeap... Well, we should be able to build and export our own stuff anyway...
[14:07]	:	There's politics re Viewer2.0, not gonna get dropped. But I'm more interested in SG. Don't want to see SG 1.x dropped until SG 2.x has all its problems removed, which could be a year or more.
[14:07]	:	meow ow
[14:07]	 	waves to Bron
[14:07]	:	k, well, that confirms that my time is not wasted on building 1.x again :)
[14:07]	:	as painful as it is...
[14:07]	:	k, well, that confirms that my time is not wasted on building 1.x again :)
[14:07]	 	available at your current location
[14:08]	:	as painful as it is...
[14:08]	:	meanwhile in SG2.0 land...
[14:08]	:	Merov += cookie
[14:08]	:	that build system works fine and happily :)
[14:08]	:	which is nice
[14:08]	:	o/
[14:09]	 	tries a build
[14:09]	:	2.0 land has its share of problem, no tags for viewer-external releases...
[14:09]	:	I have not been doing commit there but I saw Aimee did
[14:09]	:	Where is the viewer-externial 2.0.1 tag release?
[14:09]	:	I do regular syncs so, please, continue to write patches and commit there
[14:09]	:	Kirsten's latest viewer shows possible directions for how SG 2.0 might fix many UI issues.
[14:10]	:	yep, just a couple of Mac build fixes and one feature brought forward from SG1
[14:10]	:	Techwolf: good point, I should create one
[14:10]	:	there are no tags for 2.0 final, 2.0.1 at http://svn.secondlife.com/svn/linden/branches/2010/
[14:10]	:	no way to tell which code is 2.0.0
[14:11]	:	I just gave Kristens my patches to get the viewer going. They are viwer 2.0 patches. Should I submitte the patches under VWR on jira?
[14:11]	:	hmmm.... Latif, let me check but 2.0 is the last "beta" tag
[14:11]	:	2.0.0 I mean
[14:11]	:	the tip there is 2.0.1
[14:11]	:	Latif, you can find a commit with an internal svn rev (from looking at the version changes) that sort of corresponds to 2.0.1
[14:11]	:	Oh, where is the 2.0 tag also, there is only beta tags on there now.
[14:11]	:	I should create those tags just to make things clear
[14:12]	:	so viewer-external is not synced execpt for when a release is made?
[14:12]	:	Tech: I have *not* created those tags
[14:12]	:	Merov, ok.
[14:12]	:	Techwolf: is games-simulation/snowglobe-trunk in an emergeable state?
[14:12]	:	I'm saying that the last beta was eventually stamped as "2.0.0"
[14:12]	:	you said that tip was 2.0.1
[14:12]	:	If nothing else, a text doc with version number the corrosponds to the svn version would help.
[14:13]	:	the=that
[14:13]	:	also
[14:13]	:	beta 5 (? can't remember) == 2.0.0
[14:13]	:	Morgaine, yes. I think all patches that I was using have been commited now.
[14:13]	:	tip == 2.0.1
[14:13]	:	Tech: neat, just sync' with you, building now
[14:13]	:	I think it's a little past 2.0.1
[14:13]	:	so tip is only synced after a release :)
[14:14]	:	I pulled from viewer-hotfix the day 2.0.1 was built
[14:14]	:	Regarding Windows builds of 2.0 viewers, FYI, I've created a new page for us to document how. https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_2_Microsoft_Windows_Builds Much is filled in, but currently lacks the c-ares section (I can't figure it out), and the boost section could use some love. Also a specific example of where to get a set of art,libs,and source that will work. Thanks to the contributors so far. When there's a recipe that someone says will actually work, I volunteer to test-drive it.
[14:14]	:	Morgaine, the only one left if snow-589 and that one isn't a build blocker, but it fixes gstreamer detection issues with 32-bit/64-bit systems.
[14:14]	:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-589 
[#SNOW-589] Don't disable GStreamer on 64-bit Linux, when the Viewer binary is 64-bit, too
[14:15]	:	aaaah... c-ares building on Windows... That *is* one piece of fun...
[14:15]	:	wouldnt it be better to get back to 1.xx and then make it modular? Keeping the orriginal viewer as basic idea, then residents can be allowed to add in official plugin modules, or resident modules that can be certified. Much simpler and lots more ideas that are not in LL hands so LL can just focus on the viewer itself
[14:15]	:	Latha, I could set up a vmware image to test that page. I've never done any windows build of the SL client.
[14:16]	:	my personal opinion is that official full releases should be put on http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Source_downloads relying on svn is too confusing as there is currently no easy way to find out ok, i want to see what changed between 2.0.0 and 2.0.1
[14:16]	:	you can see what internal revision of each commit (in viewer-external) is from looking at llcommon/llversionviewer.h: http://svn.secondlife.com/trac/linden/log/branches/2010/viewer-external/indra/llcommon/llversionviewer.h
[14:16]	:	giving the residents a little more freedom should not be a problem i'd say
[14:16]	:	Thanks, Techwolf, but it's premature for testing. Need those who've succeeded on a windows build to note missing steps first.
[14:17]	:	Youri: I'm not sure who you want to go back to 1.xx
[14:17]	:	Techwolf: new dependency noted, dev-libs/boost-coroutine --- I've unmasked it.
[14:18]	:	well, 1.xx is more loved then 2.0 and it sure is easier to use. the new looks are nice and all, but functional they are not
[14:18]	:	Yes, I also had to so some sed fixes for boost-corroutine due to /usr/include/boost is a symolic link.
[14:18]	:	SG1.xx is a good option as well though
[14:19]	:	I had to install boost-coroutine outsde the boost directory.
[14:19]	:	LL is not going to go back to 1.x for the future of its viewer
[14:19]	:	:/
[14:19]	:	rather improve 2.x
[14:19]	:	there's a lot more to 2.0 than just the skin
[14:19]	:	well, perhaps do that trick with 2.x then?
[14:19]	:	*but* you're welcome to pick 1.x and do changes there if you prefer
[14:19]	:	Then port the skin from 1.x to 2.0?
[14:19]	:	that's not forbidden or contradictory
[14:19]	:	Aimee, it's actually too bad that the UI is what kills otherwise nice new set of features in 2.0
[14:20]	:	LL can not espect residents to keep using a viewer that is more difficult to adapt to without giving a little
[14:20]	:	latif, just ctrl-alt-f1
[14:20]	:	I sincerely think it's better to improve the 2.x skin than porting 1.x
[14:20]	:	87% of poll said they don't like Viewer 2.0. But as long as we have options to remain on 1.x until 2.0 becomess usable, that's fine. What's not fine is an "2.0-only" policy, but it seems SG is free from Tom's diktat.
[14:20]	:	it's not like 1.x has no problem...
[14:20]	:	dzonatas: that doesn't actually work as expected. please help
[14:21]	:	1.x has alot less problems
[14:21]	:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-17009 / https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-2085
[14:21]	:	[#VWR-17009] Suppressing UI works just partially.
[14:21]	:	[#VWR-2085] Ctrl-Alt-F1 Hide/Show UI Does Not Work Correctly Under Linux
[14:21]	:	It is my understanding that in the current 2.x framework there is a possability that in the future users will be able to modify the client UI
[14:21]	:	I think the way forward is to have a skin + some changes that conditional reinstate old UI (off by default, or maybe unless using the "classic" skin) - but that's a lot of work.
[14:21]	:	2.x is the one havint problems atm and bad ones, specially on design issues that are hardly funcional properly done
[14:22]	:	I'm not disagreeing with that statement
[14:22]	:	and yes, there can be a fix for it, i know
[14:22]	:	I don't think that backpedaling is the solution though
[14:22]	:	I do.
[14:22]	:	Opensource, indeed, the mouse is still active, so there needs to be an official advanced feature to toggle the UI rather than just have it marked as a debug feature
[14:22]	:	but how long will it take before the bug of today are fixed? 1 year? 2 years? or more?
[14:22]	:	2.0 is a step completely in the wrong direction.
[14:22]	:	well, we disagree then
[14:22]	 	nods
[14:23]	:	discussions are always a good thing, shows the differences in opinions
[14:23]	:	A lot of code is a lot cleaner in 2.0, but I wonder why it didn't came with a legacy skin in the first place.
[14:23]	:	perhaps we can find a solution that suits both sides
[14:23]	:	anybody looked at how hard it is to make2.0 show a pie menu?
[14:24]	:	is it possible to add in a 1.x skin to the 2.x viewer? or something similar?
[14:24]	:	The idea of doing a new UI experience (skin) to address the need of newcomers required to pull out lots of the UI scaffolding
[14:24]	:	Youri, it's proven, there is no reason to complain about the 2.0 UI when we can do this: http://twitpic.com/1gl71s
[14:24]	:	one could recreate the old UI (or smething like it) with the new scaffolding
[14:25]	:	that picture is a part of the problem i try to address
[14:25]	:	I think some stuff can be changed in pure xml, but some will require cpp changes
[14:25]	:	but merging the 2 scaffolding is not super useful
[14:25]	:	Thickbrick: +1
[14:25]	:	if we have both the 2.x design as the 1.x design, we can suit both parties
[14:26]	:	Thickbrick, I too would be interested in finding out how hard would it be to get pie menu in 2.0. The dropdown is just so much harder to use
[14:26]	:	Youri, part of the problem?
[14:26]	:	Usually, recreating the previous UI is *the* benchmark when a new scaffolding is introduced.
[14:26]	:	1.x can be changed a bit of course, but it has to be the 1.x idea
[14:26]	:	but what is the 1.x idea?
[14:26]	:	just deleting and taking objects in 2.0 is pain
[14:26]	:	anyway, having a "classic" skin in pure xml can be a start, if anybody wants to tackle that.
[14:27]	:	i almost abuse reported myself twice
[14:27]	:	dzonatas: the 2.x design is badly flawed with results in a screen full windows and options that are burried someone, which is for both newbies as experienced users a bad oman
[14:27]	:	I'd be very interested to see someone contribute a patch to make sidebar tab detachable, using the same mechanism as is already there in the conversations window, I think that would combat a large proportion of people's complaints?
[14:27]	:	try going from WoW back to the pie menu.. delet galore happens
[14:28]	:	What is the biggest thing in 2.0 UI that you can't wait to take out? at the "architecture" level?
[14:28]	:	Aimee: +1
[14:28]	:	Aimee, someone allready done that.
[14:28]	:	that's the one I see
[14:28]	:	the extreme useage of windows is one
[14:28]	:	I need to see several resident and group profile windows open at the same time.
[14:28]	:	Youri, I don't think you looked at the picture clearly: http://twitpic.com/1gl71s ... the windows are outside the viewer... the viewer window is nothing but the renderer scene... no UI
[14:28]	:	the sidebar idea is a second
[14:28]	:	i need multiple profiles too not seen that happening
[14:29]	:	well... not the sidebar 100%, but what it does to the screen more...
[14:29]	:	I'd like the UI to be more compact, to leave more space for the 3D view.
[14:29]	:	hi pixel
[14:29]	 	waves.... sorry i'm late
[14:29]	:	snow-375 ... move the windows/viewer around... tons of options
[14:29]	:	+1 to multiple profiles, I miss that myself
[14:29]	:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-375 
[#SNOW-375] REST/HTTP based API: "thinking outside the box" Human Interface Devices (i.e. Chat/IM/Contacts/Etc windows in separate-processes/plugins/ubiquitous-computing/accessibility)
[14:29]	:	frankly, having those UI architecture change in the JIRA and start to work on those would be great IMO
[14:30]	:	Uhm, problems: dropdowns too hard to use for in world objects, inability to see multiple profiles at once, inability to look at a group and personal profile at the same time, non-transparent windows, huge ugly dark grey blobls on the screen like camera controls, local chat toasts, inability to dock locak chat with the rest of conversations....
[14:30]	:	so we can have a base for both "casual users" and "experts"
[14:30]	:	Lots of little space wasters add up. Does the mini-map really need a titlebar?
[14:30]	:	im looking at the orriginal installed 2.x, not the things you can download
[14:30]	:	Merov, I'd argue that 2.0 is much harder on casual user too
[14:30]	:	also i would like the ability to still be able to acceess my friends/groups list while i have a profile open
[14:30]	:	well if you want to access the HELP for that window yes
[14:31]	:	the original install is gonna be for new users... not for advanced where you would know how to update the viewer
[14:31]	:	i have seem people jumping around instead of chatting since 2.0 has to manualyl focus on chat bar
[14:31]	:	Dzonatas: +1
[14:31]	:	i spoken to residents that actually left thanks to 2.x
[14:31]	:	they found it so hard to use and to adapt to it, that they wouldnt be bothered with even trying
[14:32]	:	the new viewer seems great for newbies because it will take them at least a week to figure out that viewer 2 stinks and by that time they mightve heard about the old viewer :)
[14:32]	:	lol
[14:32]	:	adapting means they were already using the old one
[14:32]	:	and i dont talk about 1 or 2 residents, i talk about 30+
[14:32]	:	look at WoW users.. that found it hard to do RAIDS until lua scripts...
[14:32]	:	they*
[14:32]	:	I can relate, it took me a while to get used to the new UI
[14:32]	:	that being said, they are features I like
[14:33]	:	not just users that are known with the old viewer merov, also new residents
[14:33]	:	that just got in
[14:33]	:	well at least it made newbs and older residents equal
[14:33]	:	my favorite one being having landmarks as "bookmarks"
[14:33]	:	and the top address/search
[14:33]	:	equally clueless where everything was in the viewer
[14:33]	:	lol
[14:33]	:	but that's juts me :)
[14:33]	:	that being said, I'm running SG 1.3.2 at the moment :)
[14:34]	:	heh
[14:34]	:	oh and... meow
[14:34]	:	people have invested huge amounts of time on making their profile nice just to find that their profile description is a tiny tiny text field on 2.0 profile with rl pic huge, and very few use it
[14:34]	:	oh i dont deny that there are no good things about 2.x, sure there are. i just say its design is a main flaw that needs to change so it is easier to use for everyone
[14:34]	:	yeah, tbh when the idea of the navigation and favourites bars was first introduced, I thought "bah, I'll just turn that off, don't see the point" but I actually use it a lot
[14:34]	:	don't tell anyone ok? I know I can count on you being discrete... (/tongue firmly planted in cheek)
[14:34]	:	also the list of groups is next to impossible to read
[14:34]	:	yeah the profiles are awful
[14:35]	:	i have taken a dislike to reading profiles at all in viewer 2
[14:35]	:	all jammed in a single line.. just terribe
[14:35]	:	profiles is indeed also a bad design flaw, it doesnt even look remotely like the orriginal and is hard to read as well for most people
[14:35]	:	and auto-hide option for the nav and fav bars might be nice though to get the world view space back
[14:35]	:	*an
[14:35]	:	and you cannot "group surf", or pick surf, only one thing in the side bar at the time
[14:35]	:	that there are not complaints coming to LL doesnt mean there are none
[14:35]	:	i'm sure some favorite bars are full with each office hour
[14:35]	:	or put navigation and menu on a single bar: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/EXT-6044
[14:35]	:	2.0 UI really is a big step backward in discoverability...
[14:36]	:	(I hope that's the right issue, can't access it anymore)
[14:36]	:	Youri: no more complaints coming? there are... be sure... and we hear them...
[14:36]	:	yes Boroondas
[14:36]	:	Aimee, yes... auto-hide.. I actually have more than just nav bar in mid, however
[14:36]	:	mind*
[14:37]	:	oh, Merov, this reminds me of something I emant to ask: what's up with the EXT-* jiras?
[14:37]	:	could http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/EXT-6044 be moved to SNOW?
[14:37]	:	lol, i dont try to offend you merov, i just try to make sure you understand the importance of my point
[14:37]	:	k, I can see that "2.0 UI improvements" is a popular subject
[14:37]	:	Are they only bisible to peopel who were on the 2.0 closed beta?
[14:37]	:	hm, improvements :P
[14:37]	:	Oh yea, I had one EXT/BTEST that I filed...its missing or can't access it.
[14:37]	:	*visible
[14:37]	:	on the Mac viewer at least, I'd like to take the menus out of the viewer complete and put them on the Mac neu bar where they belong :)
[14:38]	:	EXT-* jiras are mined and triaged and used to plan 2.x
[14:38]	:	mac biggot :P
[14:38]	:	there are looked at a lot
[14:38]	:	lol
[14:38]	:	Amiee, just let me know the RESTful resource you want... I'll add them to snow-375 =)
[14:38]	:	I had a lot of EXT/BTEST issues still open when they all vanished. 24 of them I think.
[14:38]	:	at this point i think it's easer to start with 1.x UI to get something useful, than to make 2.0 usable
[14:38]	 	Box : SL Exchange - Delivered item [NVE] Sculpted Sand Dune - Boxed (no-transfer).
[14:38]	:	Merov: biggest complaint is a meta-complaint. So many huge regressions were made by introducing Viewer 2.0 UI, and now SG devs are expected to fix them, which is going to take at least a year. That's a disaster done for political reasons.
[14:38]	 	tries to think of a way to channel all these energies productively
[14:38]	:	latif: good point
[14:39]	:	closed beta users *were* able to access BTEST and some chosen EXT issues (mainly those moved from BTEST). But now the jira group that granted access was deleted, I think.
[14:39]	 	doesn't have permissions to view EXT-* jiras
[14:39]	:	oh
[14:39]	:	i think latif actually have a valid point, it is a lot easier to start working with 1.x and see what possibilities can be worked on
[14:39]	:	however, i do NOT suggest that that viewer should be the follow up for 1.23
[14:40]	:	more as a side track so to speak
[14:40]	:	just for testing in this group so to say
[14:40]	:	well if 2.0 scaffolding as merov calls it is as flexible as they suggest it should be possible to build a decent UI on top of 2.0 engine
[14:41]	:	if latif's idea actually worked, then we can plant it into 2.0 and test it in there to see how it would fit in
[14:41]	:	I think it was mentioned that the UI framework is easier to work with in V2. I have no reason to doubt that as I saw a lot of hackish stuff in V1.23.5 - I suppose the thing to try is molding V2 UI
[14:41]	:	take a look at the patches for SNOW-575 and VWR-6918 for a small example
[14:41]	:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-575 
[#SNOW-575] Reimplement Menu item to hide object selection outlines for 2.0
[14:41]	:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-6918 
[#VWR-6918] Building > "Hide/Show Selection Outlines" with key combo, menu option, or both.
[14:41]	:	Borrondas: OK to move EXT-6044 to SNOW
[14:41]	:	The XUI editing tools in 2.0 are also better/easier to use.
[14:41]	:	I just get lost in the code so easily. I would like some sort of documentation.
[14:41]	:	I suggest that Dzonatas' SNOW-375 framework be added, as a starting point for a new UI framework.
[14:42]	:	they do the same thing, but the 2.0 one only involves about 3 lines of C++ if I remember rightly, the rest is just XML
[14:42]	:	Indeed Aimee
[14:42]	:	I tried to view EXT-6044, got need to log in, so I log in and get "PERMISSION VIOLATION" wth?
[14:42]	:	morg, yeah, think its a start
[14:42]	:	Techwolf, that's expected
[14:42]	:	that's what I called "scafolding" (don't like the word "architecture" for everything)
[14:42]	:	removing that thing and putting back in a button may work
[14:43]	:	Merov: i react the same way to the overuse of the word plugin
[14:43]	:	Merov, can you do the move (or maybe clone, if the ProductEngine people still need it)?
[14:43]	:	that's what I don't want to go back to in porting back 1.x...
[14:43]	:	I took baby steps not to disable any of the current framework
[14:43]	:	a plugin will always be a plugin pixel, no matter how you turn it around :p
[14:44]	:	Boroondas: give me sec
[14:44]	 	doing the move
[14:44]	:	Jira-helper didn't seem to trigger on SNOW-375 -- http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-375
[14:44]	:	[#SNOW-375] REST/HTTP based API: "thinking outside the box" Human Interface Devices (i.e. Chat/IM/Contacts/Etc windows in separate-processes/plugins/ubiquitous-computing/accessibility)
[14:44]	:	Oh, it did then, hehe
[14:44]	:	Doesn't SNOW-375 involve a lot of specific API building? So for each new UI component to be detachified on client side, someone has to write some API code to obtain the needed info and serve it out by http?
[14:45]	:	Latha, it's REST/HTTP based so it is peer-agnostic
[14:45]	:	Latha: adds a REST resource for each new thing you want to poke from a script
[14:45]	:	hmm... is it possible to side track 2.x to a test version so playing with the design can be done in the hope to get a better version?
[14:45]	:	Boroondas: the EXT is assigned internally... so I can't move it and pull the rug off the feet of the assigned Linden
[14:45]	:	clone?
[14:45]	:	it should be easier then to 'transfer' the new design if ready to the 2.x
[14:46]	:	I need to comment in there first
[14:46]	:	he might be working on it already for all I know
[14:46]	:	Create new Jira group for the subset of EXT entries of interest?
[14:46]	:	basically clone it indeed, so its a 1:1 idea and then modifying the design so its easier and working to our advantage
[14:46]	:	they should have been in VWR or SNOW anyway
[14:46]	:	Otherwise I can try to re-file it from memory ...
[14:47]	:	no, im not merov :p
[14:47]	:	(I still have my screenshot-mock-ups
[14:47]	:	im mostly too caughed up with the CT team atm :p
[14:47]	:	but, well... i do like to give it a try, think more would like that opertunity
[14:47]	:	actually, I'm wondering why most of those have not been moved wholesale to VWR...
[14:48]	:	EXT readable only for certain people?
[14:48]	:	Dzonatas, yes, only Linden and ProductEngine, I guess.
[14:48]	:	yes
[14:48]	:	I think we need a grand-plan for moving forward with the 2.x/1.x thing: Do we want various small UI improvments, or do we want to do a coherent "classic" mode, involving both switchable behaviour changes and a XUI skin?
[14:48]	:	merov, then we, the residents, can not try to help LL out on this one
[14:49]	:	instead of going through cloning lots of those, I'd rather make them public by moving them
[14:49]	:	we will need a little bit of info on the how and what without destroying it
[14:49]	:	I need to talk to whoever manage those though
[14:49]	:	Or to put it differenlt, change current behavior, or add an option for changed behavior?
[14:49]	:	let me take that as an action item
[14:50]	:	Alexa Linden would be the one to talk to
[14:50]	:	so it might be possible to give out a version that may be changed in the hope for a better design that does work good?
[14:50]	:	I do not know the motivation behind making those private
[14:50]	:	Alexa, yeap
[14:50]	:	Thickbrick, maybe both? Some stuff might be worth changing for 2.0 mode, too.
[14:50]	:	those were created durign closed beta
[14:50]	:	yep
[14:50]	:	lol, need to poke her anyways for another thing, so could add it to the list :p
[14:50]	:	*bites* lips to silence UI fea....
[14:50]	:	Boroondas, agreed, but I think it (also) depends on how likely it is to be taken upstream
[14:50]	:	I think Alexa Linden is the one that deleted those groups.
[14:51]	:	Borondas, having ability for "classic" ui in 2.0 would be great indeed
[14:51]	:	Tech: groups need to be disbanded at some point, the problem is where does the info float to...
[14:51]	:	dunno how feasable is to maintaing two interfaces
[14:52]	 	nods
[14:52]	:	Latif: it would be 2 skins on a single UI engine with wider capabilities
[14:52]	:	Latif: you think that dilutes resources trying to do both?
[14:52]	:	at least that's my favorite solution
[14:52]	:	I'd like a modular aproach. Like, I might want the location bar but not the side bar.
[14:52]	:	I can't access my own bugs in EXT now. But I can acces my own SEC bugs and no one else cam.
[14:52]	:	Merov, yes, that's what i was thinking about
[14:52]	:	Merov: multiple skins would be nice
[14:53]	:	but for exampel, can 2.0 architecture support simple local chat?
[14:53]	:	I get the impression doing a full skin is a *lot* of work, but there are peopel doing that
[14:53]	:	instead of these ugly grey blobs that popup ow
[14:53]	:	there are people who love to do that Thickbrick... not just our type... :)
[14:53]	:	in earlier betas there was a menu option for the old style local chat
[14:53]	:	is tha gone?
[14:53]	:	GTK has tons of themes... no need to reinvent the wheel with all those avail
[14:53]	:	I believe people were talking on iRC the other day about enumerating multiple available skins from the skins directory and presenting them for selection
[14:54]	:	that would be a good, and probably pretty easy starting point
[14:54]	:	Agreed
[14:54]	:	Pixel, no 2.0 could never display simple local chat
[14:54]	:	Dzo: gtk themes are not comparable to XUI skins. Skins can have completly different widgets.
[14:54]	:	Before you make changes, it's best to know where one is going. Is Kirsten's version of the V2 UI a possible future direction for SG2?
[14:54]	:	Aimee, that0d be SNOW-614
[14:54]	:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-614 
[#SNOW-614] Detect UI skins at runtime
[14:54]	:	Hey Pixel, now you're here: how's VWRAP Login port in SG2.0 going?
[14:54]	:	Merov: havent started
[14:55]	:	And somekind of hirechilly so if one does a skin wiht a few changes, does not need to dupe the entire defauilt skin.
[14:55]	:	:(
[14:55]	:	i find it more interresting to change the background color or opacy of the chat
[14:55]	:	GTK cabn have complete different widgets... it's not limited to the set that comes with it
[14:55]	:	what?
[14:55]	:	Pixel, there is option to have plain text chat history, but not the chat itself, it's always ugly grey flickering blobs
[14:55]	:	;)
[14:55]	:	its hard to read sometimes
[14:55]	:	thanks Boroondas :) knew it was there somewhere
[14:55]	:	and what was discussed during a bug triage, the letter type needs to be modified as well
[14:55]	:	letter type?
[14:55]	:	Merov: please take a look at Kirsten's 2.0 some time. It's hard to discuss something without a common reference.
[14:55]	:	its making it difficul as well
[14:56]	:	Colored/hightlighted plain chat history would help a lot in 2.0.
[14:56]	:	colored how?
[14:56]	:	could be a good "Hitler parody": "Merov is told that the main SG1.x specific feature port to SG2.0 have not started yet..."
[14:56]	:	haha
[14:56]	:	this letter type somehow messes with the readability, I think it was Alexa during that OH that actually agreed on it
[14:56]	:	lol
[14:56]	:	if it doesn't get taken down for copyright infringement :P
[14:56]	:	lol merov
[14:56]	:	you know there was so much negative feedback on local chat during the viewer2 beta, i'm really surprised it wasnt changed
[14:57]	:	Latif: I just make the chat popups go away altogether. Tech: My plain text chat history is colored green for avatar names and object-chat, but could be more colorful.
[14:57]	:	o my, it's almost 3pm
[14:57]	:	The owner of that film has gone ballistic and sent ton of takedown letters to the paradies on youtube.
[14:57]	:	good call merov
[14:57]	:	time to poof
[14:57]	:	time to head to next OH :)
[14:57]	:	later kids
[14:57]	:	i know, chat in 1.x works so well ,it was really evil to "improve" it like 2.0 did
[14:57]	:	thanks for the OH lindens :)
[14:57]	:	I tried Kirstin's S20. She pushed stuff around and changed the colors a bit but did not touch on the fundamental UI flaws that ruin usablity for me.
[14:57]	:	Thank you for a most INFORMATIVE discussion.
[14:57]	:	hey guys, one thing I want and *need* to do is scrub all those "unscheduled" bugs
[14:57]	:	Merov: 3pm, but you still haven't acknowledged the existence of Kirsten's new version of 2.0 :-)
[14:58]	:	and remember merov, SL will loose a lot of residents if 2.x keeps the design as it is :p
[14:58]	:	We need to know what's in the possibl;e future, for consideration at least :-)
[14:58]	:	Morgaine : I know of it. glad SG 2.0 enabled that :)
[14:58]	:	I suppose I'd better try Kirsten's too, eh? OK.
[14:58]	:	I saw the great video Naofan did with it
[14:58]	:	Kristens is in my gentoo overlay
[14:58]	:	video*s*
[14:59]	:	aight, bye bye al!
[14:59]	:	well i think linden management is going to go "OOPS" after they read april concurrency and in world economy data :P
[14:59]	 	is working on training her bugs to type, there's more of them than me, so they should be able to fix themselves quicker
[14:59]	:	Merov: cool. It's one possible direction that the 2.0 SG UI could head it.
[14:59]	:	Aimee: LOL
[14:59]	:	head in*
[14:59]	:	I think a "call for patches" for calssic-like UI changes is in order, and when we have a few of those, we can make a single central pref for those. (considering people who make skins might or might not intersect with people attending these meetings)
[15:00]	:	ok guys, next time, would you be game for some bug scrub? (bug review and decide to take in or not)
[15:00]	:	Thickbrick++
[15:00]	:	There are several under the hood changes made that crippled the classic UI
[15:00]	:	Merov, bug scrub sounds more productive than viewer flame to me.
[15:00]	:	so the classic UI just needs to be updated
[15:00]	:	Dzonatas; yes, but we need to start somewhere
[15:00]	:	go for it
[15:01]	:	I've started Icesphere... it has parts of the classic look
[15:01]	:	UXIG discussion is in OSgrid today folks, in Wright Plaza, right now. See you there.
[15:01]	:	I don't think the entire V2 UI is useless. :-) I just have needs that it doesn't currently come close to meeting.
[15:01]	:	Thickbrick: making the UI architecture more capable is a good thing IMO
[15:02]	:	so go for it.
[15:02]	:	All my reports on those are no inaccessable to me and I am not in a humor to reconstruct them.
[15:02]	:	-no +now
[15:02]	 	took the action on taking to Alexa about old EXT bugs
[15:02]	:	Thanks Merov
[15:03]	:	See you Tuesday guys :)
[15:03]	:	lots of gems in there :-)
 
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