Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.01.08

Simulator_User_Group
Prev 2012.12.18	Next 2013.01.15
== List of Speakers ==
Andrew Linden 	Inara Pey 	Jonathan Yap
Kelly Linden 	Lares Carter 	Lucia Nightfire
Motor Loon 	Nalates Urriah 	NeoBokrug Elytis
Qie Niangao 	Rex Cronon 	Sonya Haight
TankMaster Finesmith	Theresa Tennyson	Tiberious Neruda
Yuzuru Jewell 	 	
== Transcript ==
[12:01] Yuzuru Jewell: Terrible lag..
[12:02] Yuzuru Jewell: Hello. Andrew.
[12:02] Motor Loon: ey andrew
[12:02] Yuzuru Jewell: Hello, Nalates.
[12:02] Inara Pey: Hi, Andrew. Happy New Year
[12:03] Andrew Linden: Hello. We've had a long haitus between Simulator User Group meetings.
[12:03] Rex Cronon: oh. right. happy new year everybody
[12:03] Rex Cronon: hi andrew
[12:03] Andrew Linden: Here we are, 2013.
[12:03] Yuzuru Jewell: Happy New Year.
[12:03] Andrew Linden: This will be year 10 for Second Life.
[12:03] Lares Carter: Hey Andrew
[12:03] Inara Pey: Hi, Nal
[12:04] Motor Loon: its nuts to think about aint it
[12:04] Jonathan Yap: Andrew, are you the 2nd oldest linden?
[12:04] Andrew Linden: Kelly, is Simon out today?
[12:04] Kelly Linden: Yes, Simon is out today.
[12:04] Andrew Linden: Ok, then I guess we'll get started...
[12:05] Andrew Linden: Jonathan, I've been around a long time...
[12:05] Motor Loon: Andrew is pre-stoneage lol
[12:05] Andrew Linden: I guess I would be oldest Linden still at Linden Lab.
[12:05] Andrew Linden: I was the first person Philip hired.
[12:06] Andrew Linden: Back when we were working on virtual reality hardware.
[12:06] Jonathan Yap: cool
[12:06] Rex Cronon: start wearing a big white beard;)
[12:06] Andrew Linden: Ok news...
[12:07] Andrew Linden: My main item of news is that the interestlist work I've been doing for the last several months will go out onto RC (Magnum) tomorrow.
[12:07] Nalates Urriah: Congrats
[12:07] Andrew Linden: Hrm... chat lag is pretty long today.
[12:07] TankMaster Finesmith: looking forward to it
[12:07] Kelly Linden: woot
[12:07] Andrew Linden: I'm hoping that it is better without too many visual glitches.
[12:08] Andrew Linden: Things will probably be most noticeable in regions that tend to have lots of lag for large crowds of avatars and very busy content
[12:08] TankMaster Finesmith: will this region get it?
[12:08] Andrew Linden: where by "busy" I mean lots of object updates
[12:08] Andrew Linden: No, this region is on the "Second Life Server" channel.
[12:08] TankMaster Finesmith: and you cant fix that?
[12:08] TankMaster Finesmith: hehe
[12:08] Andrew Linden: You can tell the region's channel by going to the Help --> About Second Life window
[12:09] Andrew Linden: and looking at line...
[12:09] Nalates Urriah: .
[12:09] Andrew Linden: line 7 strictly counting from the top, and counting the empty line under "Release Notes"
[12:10] Andrew Linden: Yeah, we might be able to move this region to Magnum. I'll consider it.
[12:10] Andrew Linden: One of the things I'm hoping to notice in this region is a faster streaming of the this platform we're standing on.
[12:10] Jonathan Yap: You don't want it restarting during a meeting
[12:10] Andrew Linden: The interestlist code has a few improvements in the sorting of how objects are sent, but the final state of that is not perfect either.
[12:11] Andrew Linden: so it will be interesting to see if this big prim we're all standing on will show up sooner or not
[12:11] Theresa Tennyson: I think this region restarted just barely before the meeting. It was down on the map.
[12:11] Andrew Linden: it is typically not the first thing that shows up for me
[12:11] Andrew Linden: despite being big and nearby
[12:11] TankMaster Finesmith: if it was a rc channel, it wouldn't restart till tomorrow
[12:12] Rex Cronon: u mean the PF Floor?
[12:12] Andrew Linden: Anyway, if you know of anyone who has a busy club, or a shoot-em-up region on Magnum...
[12:12] TankMaster Finesmith: the floor we are standing on
[12:12] Rex Cronon: ok
[12:12] Andrew Linden: I'd be interested in hearing annectdotal stories of improvements
[12:13] Andrew Linden: or (hopefully not) bugs and regressions
[12:13] Jonathan Yap: This floor usually comes in much later than things downstairs do
[12:13] Andrew Linden: do you know much about that one?
[12:13] Andrew Linden: Kelly, there is a second RC candidate on one of the other channels
[12:13] Nalates Urriah: Floor/roof is late rezzing for me too.
[12:13] Theresa Tennyson: I'll see how often my cat is in pieces compared to now.
[12:13] Andrew Linden: ack... out of order chat
[12:13] Kelly Linden: Let me check one sec, andrew
[12:14] Kelly Linden: The other version slated for RC tomorrow is some improvements for threaded region crossing.
[12:15] Andrew Linden: Ah yes, you're right Kelly. That is slated for the other two RC channels: BlueSteele and LeTigre
[12:15] Andrew Linden: Ok, I guess that is all I've got for news.
[12:16] Jonathan Yap: I have a question when the floor is open
[12:16] Andrew Linden: Yes, I think the floor is open. Go ahead Jonathan.
[12:16] Jonathan Yap: I use the world map to TP to Hippotropolis
[12:16] Jonathan Yap: when I get there I am underground for about 2 seconds, then am popped up--has anyone else seen this?
[12:17] NeoBokrug Elytis: All the time.
[12:17] Jonathan Yap: I don't remember this happening some time ago--was there some change I wonder?
[12:17] Nalates Urriah: I pop in at different odd elevations depending on where I tp from and to.
[12:17] Motor Loon: Landing point set too low?
[12:17] Andrew Linden: You know what? I noticed that today on aditi, when teleporting to one of the other projects that is undergoing testing.
[12:17] Jonathan Yap: I'm using the world map, no lm
[12:17] Andrew Linden: I wasn't sure if it was a bug in the main codebase or in that project.
[12:18] Theresa Tennyson: I think if you double-click on the world map you'll always arrive at the Z-coordinate you were at where you left.
[12:18] Kelly Linden: Even TP by world map should use the parcel landing point if there is one.
[12:18] Andrew Linden: Well... there was a worse version of that "show up underground" bug in my interestlist work a month or two ago
[12:18] Qie Niangao: Sometimes the Map defaults to an elevation 2, sometimes it goes to your tp'd-from elevation.
[12:18] Qie Niangao: I've never figured out when it uses that default of 2
[12:18] Andrew Linden: but I fixed it... I wonder if it will be fixed on Magnum tomorrow.
[12:18] Inara Pey: That was my understanding, Theresa
[12:19] Andrew Linden: Kelly, the avatar can appear underground because of bugs in the interestlist
[12:19] Andrew Linden: specifically, bugs in how the interestlist handles subscription to your avatar
[12:19] Jonathan Yap: In my case I type in Hippotropolis and click the teleport button, not on the map
[12:19] Rex Cronon: ok. i have and interesting story. next:)
[12:20] Andrew Linden: Jonathan, are you saying it only happens when you click the TP button and not when you double-click the map? or use landmarks in inventory?
[12:20] Jonathan Yap: Andrew, I have only tried that one way; I don't know about other methods
[12:21] Andrew Linden: ok, just curious (looking for clues)
[12:21] Jonathan Yap: Landmarks in inventory work okay, but you'd have to edit the terrain higher to see if one of those malfunctions
[12:21] Qie Niangao: Open the Map, they "Hippo" into the Find field, and the Z location goes to 2... and that's where it will try to put you if there's no Landing Point set on the parcel.
[12:22] Andrew Linden: Jonathan, I have noticed the problem, and right now (since I'm narrowly focused on the interestlist) I suspect an interestlist problem, but I'm not sure.
[12:22] Qie Niangao: If you click on the map itself, it will take you to your current elevation at the new X & Y coordinates. I *think*.
[12:22] Andrew Linden: I'll wait and see... if it still shows up in Magnum then I might try to help the maintenance team track that down.
[12:23] Jonathan Yap: Andrew, should I write a jira for it?
[12:23] Andrew Linden: Jonathan, sure create a jira.
[12:23] Andrew Linden: Rex, what is your interesting story?
[12:23] Motor Loon gets popcorn and a blanket
[12:23] Rex Cronon: here it comes:
[12:23] Rex Cronon: last thursday i went to maestro's group meeting on beta. it was very bad lag. sim ping time was around 4000ms. i wasn't seeing all the text, and I was rubberbanding-like crazy. after the meeting i went to the main grid and had no problems. yesterday when i logged in on the main grid. i had a ping sim time max 28000ms and min around 500(packet loss was 0.3%). now things r ok. what happened?
[12:24] Andrew Linden: Huh... btw I think Morris is still on my interstlist code on the beta grid.
[12:25] Motor Loon: I was there too, had no issues with those things
[12:25] Qie Niangao: router
[12:25] Rex Cronon: yesterday i had same problem no matter what sim i went to
[12:25] Rex Cronon: i think i was the only one
[12:25] Rex Cronon: not the router. i reset it
[12:25] Lares Carter: I had no problems at the Thursday meeting.
[12:25] Nalates Urriah: Andrew, Rex had problems at Nyx's meeting while most o the rest of us were OK.
[12:25] Andrew Linden: Ok, so my first theory would be a network glitch somewhere "local" to your connection Rex.
[12:26] Theresa Tennyson: Rex still uses 1.23 - doesn't it basically do everything by UDP?
[12:26] Andrew Linden: Where "local" is not necessarily in your house, but somewhere between you and the hosts on the beta grid.
[12:26] Rex Cronon: nothing local. i could ping the sim
[12:26] Rex Cronon: when i used ping i had less than 200ms
[12:26] Rex Cronon: ping.exe
[12:27] Andrew Linden: Huh, interesting.
[12:27] Theresa Tennyson: Do you have any clues on why some sims have periods of inflated net time and very low physics frame rates sometimes?
[12:27] Rex Cronon: warning: my chat seems out of order
[12:27] Theresa Tennyson: There is a big puddle of packets under the machine this sim is running on, I think.
[12:28] Nalates Urriah: Toysolder is seeing a new set of problems at large events. That thread is still going on the Sl Forum.
[12:28] Nalates Urriah: Apparently more event managers are having problems.
[12:28] Rex Cronon: i am on winxp and use v1.23.5
[12:28] Andrew Linden: Yeah, I'm seeing momentary spikes in packet loss right now.
[12:28] TankMaster Finesmith: im getting a lot of bandwidth throttling messages at the moment in my logs...
[12:28] Rex Cronon: somebody else logged in with same viewer and had no problem
[12:28] Theresa Tennyson: I see it sometimes when there's a steady stream of people arriving at a fairly crowded sim, and it MAY be something to do with mesh somehow.
[12:28] Andrew Linden: I think that's related to the out-of-order chat we're currently seeing.
[12:29] Andrew Linden: weird... I see a packet loss square wave that happens every three seconds and lasts a second or so
[12:30] Rex Cronon: i traced with winmtr and seemed that some nodes in ll networ were very slow
[12:30] Rex Cronon: did somebody find a backdoor that allows them to do this?
[12:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[12:30] Nalates Urriah: I'm seeing spikes in paclet loss up to 75%... then to noothing, lots of unacked bytes 80kb
[12:31] Andrew Linden: ok Rex, so you traced it to our servers? This is the first I've heard of it.
[12:31] TankMaster Finesmith: wow
[12:31] TankMaster Finesmith: Packets Lost: 11,840/32,125 (36.9%)
[12:31] Andrew Linden: But then, I haven't been paying attention to our #ops chat channel, so they might know more about it.
[12:31] Rex Cronon: yes
[12:31] Kelly Linden: Yup, #ops is on it.
[12:31] Kelly Linden: We are investigating the current packet loss issues.
[12:31] TankMaster Finesmith: just only from being on this region
[12:32] Rex Cronon: there was at least one node that was introducing a constant 500ms delay
[12:33] Rex Cronon: there is something weird going on
[12:33] Andrew Linden: ok, well sounds like we know about it and are working on it. I don't have any more info.
[12:33] Kelly Linden: I'm sitting at about the same (33.4% packet loss this session, only in this region)
[12:33] Rex Cronon: i hope your servers didn
[12:33] Rex Cronon: 't catch a virus;)
[12:34] TankMaster Finesmith: is it only happening on the man channel?
[12:34] Andrew Linden wants to make a joke about glitches in our debian --> win8 migration.
[12:34] TankMaster Finesmith: lol
[12:34] Theresa Tennyson: There's a post on the forum of someone seeing packet loss on LeTigre even though it hasn't been restarted.
[12:34] TankMaster Finesmith: but at least now he servers have touch screens, right?!
[12:34] Kelly Linden: The packet loss issues are not sim code related, they are definitely network related and being worked on as we speak.
[12:35] Rex Cronon: your servers run win8 + IE;)
[12:35] TankMaster Finesmith: ok, thanks so, kelly
[12:35] TankMaster Finesmith: thought*
[12:35] Jonathan Yap: I have another question -- is there currently some way to request that parcel properties be resent? E.G. parcel name, stream details, etc.
[12:35] Lares Carter: I got a question for Kelly: could llLink* versions of the LSL functions for sound be added? I think it's one of the last things for which I have to add a couple of really small scripts just to play sounds.
[12:36] Kelly Linden: Lares it is conceivable.
[12:36] Andrew Linden: Jonathan, the UI that uses that info triggers a request for that info
[12:36] Lares Carter: Should I file a Jira?
[12:37] Motor Loon: I want that feature too for playing an attached sound in another link in the linkset
[12:37] Andrew Linden: so yes, there is a way to request it, but the response handler is probably tied to that UI element (probably the "About Land")
[12:37] Motor Loon: would be very useful
[12:37] Rex Cronon: my packet loss fluctuates between 35 and 62ms
[12:38] Jonathan Yap: Andrew, it is often the case that a stream url is changed at a live music show but not everyone receives the update (speaking of packet loss). If there was some way to request parcel info it would mean peole would not have to log off and on again, or tp away and back
[12:38] Jonathan Yap: also when teleporting I have seen failure of the location/parcel name fail to update
[12:38] TankMaster Finesmith: thoser are 2 different metrics, rex :P
[12:39] Andrew Linden: Ah I see Jonathan. This is info we send to the viewer, but triggered by some server logic.
[12:39] Jonathan Yap: I'll write a jira for that, too then, thank you.
[12:39] Motor Loon: thats not a new problem though
[12:39] Nalates Urriah: I thought most just turned the channel off and on to restart the stream. That doesn't work for this problem?
[12:39] Andrew Linden: The question being, is there a way to tickle the server into sending it?
[12:40] Jonathan Yap: Pushing the play button does not help in the case of the stream info not being updated due to packet loss
[12:40] Qie Niangao: Come to think of it, I've never tried: what happens if a script sets the parcel stream again, to the same stream it was before? would the sim ship an update? (if so, that might be handy)
[12:40] Andrew Linden: Jonathan, if you make a jira for it, it would be nice if you could specify the specific message that the server is sending -- will be much easier to track down.
[12:41] Jonathan Yap: Sure Andrew
[12:41] Andrew Linden: If you know the message name now I could look through the code and might be able to tell if there is a way to trigger it.
[12:41] Jonathan Yap: Sorry, I am not that well prepared :)
[12:41] NeoBokrug Elytis: Do you guys and gals know that Top scripts is empty when scripts on a region are disabled? :)
[12:42] Andrew Linden: Kelly, did you see the question by Lares Carter? About sounds from linked prims?
[12:42] Motor Loon: hopefully
[12:42] Lares Carter: He said it's conceivable.
[12:42] TankMaster Finesmith: if scripts are disabled, whats there to list?
[12:42] Kelly Linden: Andrew, yes. :)
[12:43] Andrew Linden: oh sorry, I missed the response!
[12:43] Kelly Linden: NeoBokrug - what did you want top scripts to show when scripts are disabled?
[12:44] NeoBokrug Elytis: The scenario that I deal with is when people grief regions. Disabling scripts is the first thing I do to mitigate the damage. Then I can sort the objects by time and return them.
[12:44] Motor Loon: if you disable scripts they wont use any time?
[12:44] Qie Niangao: (they'd all have 0 time, but yeah: they'd have memory size)
[12:44] Andrew Linden: Jonathan, there appears to be a ParcelPropertiesRequestByID UDP message that is sent by viewer to the simulator
[12:45] Andrew Linden: you can probably track that down in the viewer code and figure out how to send it, and to catch the response
[12:45] Motor Loon: so you want a feature that shows Top-scriptmemory-usage
[12:45] NeoBokrug Elytis: Motor: in the past you used to be able to still see a list of objects while scripts were disabled on the region. Now it's just an empty list returned.
[12:45] Motor Loon: not a bad idea actually
[12:46] Jonathan Yap: Andrew I will do some experimenting, and presumably the viewer code will not need to be changed to "catch" it -- the problem is due to packet loss the data never made it through the first time
[12:46] Kelly Linden: About Land -> Script Info I believe still shows data when scripts are disabled, but I'm not 100% sure.
[12:46] Jonathan Yap: I will add a UI element to send out that packet
[12:46] Tiberious Neruda: umm, dumb question, when there's an opportunity to ask
[12:47] Jonathan Yap: Now seems like a good time :)
[12:47] Tiberious Neruda: mmk
[12:47] Andrew Linden: Jonathan, I recently dove into some of the details of the UDP message protocol code...
[12:47] NeoBokrug Elytis: Is that only for the parcel you're over, or the whole region. My regions are cut up into a lot of parcels, and the old way Top Scripts worked was pretty great.
[12:47] Andrew Linden: turns out there is a way to send packets more reliably
[12:47] Tiberious Neruda: when did the rules on 'off-worlding' objects change?
[12:47] Jonathan Yap: Andrew, are you going to be making a server change then?
[12:47] Andrew Linden: well, the viewer could send the *request* more reliably
[12:47] Kelly Linden: Neo: if you are a region owner then it is region wide.
[12:48] NeoBokrug Elytis: Brb! :)
[12:48] Tiberious Neruda: it appears that physical objects can now never go off-world
[12:48] Andrew Linden: the server would have to be modified to send the reply more reliably for it to really work right.
[12:48] Jonathan Yap: Andrew, do you plan to do that, or should I work on a viewer-side request feature?
[12:48] Andrew Linden: Really Tiberious? I had an object go offworld just today on the beta grid.
[12:49] Tiberious Neruda: I was unable to make any object set physical to go off-world, in sim Pago Pago
[12:49] NeoBokrug Elytis: Kelly it does work, however there's no sort by time, which is invaluable to sorting the most recent (and griefer objects). :)
[12:49] Tiberious Neruda: erf... delayed chat
[12:50] Kelly Linden: Neo: hrm.
[12:50] Andrew Linden: Jonathan, no I wouldn't want to tackle that particular message, but I was thinking that it might be possible to make our whole UDP message system use more reliable algorithms without too much work.
[12:50] Rex Cronon: i also have delayed chat, and out of order too
[12:50] Lucia Nightfire: theres a change made for VD off-worlding vertically
[12:50] Lucia Nightfire: it was to adress PF chars gogin off world
[12:50] Tiberious Neruda: I noticed that one
[12:50] Jonathan Yap: Sort by time would probably be a viewer change
[12:50] Andrew Linden: But someone would have to dive into it and understand it first. From my initial dive it seemed like it would be possible.
[12:51] Tiberious Neruda: but I also had an object that moves along the ground with 0 friction (physical), just -stop- when it hit the sim edge
[12:51] Nalates Urriah: Were main channels regions restarted to day?
[12:51] Lucia Nightfire: I have a question about this statement in the release notes for Magnum: "KillObject messages sent for ALL objects in the region upon deletion, whether the server thinks they are visible on the viewer or not. " <--can a dev e;aborate on this one?
[12:52] Lares Carter: Yes, there was a rolling restart today, Nal.
[12:52] Andrew Linden: Nalates, yes I think the main channel was updated today.
[12:52] Nalates Urriah: Thx
[12:53] Andrew Linden: Lucia, if an object is deleted on a Mangum region (starting tomorrow) then your viewer will get a KillObject message for it.
[12:53] Lucia Nightfire: so its not a change to deletion server side
[12:53] Tiberious Neruda: ...this is as bad as group chats
[12:53] Andrew Linden: This will be true even for objects that were never visible to your viewer, or were not visible at the moment when the object was deleted.
[12:53] Lucia Nightfire: in other words I won't be seeing a resolution to https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7788 ?
[12:53] Tiberious Neruda: but I also had an object that moves along the ground with 0 friction (physical), just -stop- when it hit the sim edge
[12:54] Andrew Linden: Lucia, yes it is a change in behavior of the server. Turns out the KillObject message is usually a very small packet.
[12:55] Andrew Linden: Lucia, no this will not fix SVC-7788, but may reduce the frequency of "ghost prims" that were deleted server-side but still show up on the viewer.
[12:55] Jonathan Yap: Was that change made to help with ghost prims?
[12:55] Andrew Linden: Those ghost prims are usually caused by packet loss, but there may be other modes.
[12:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[12:55] Andrew Linden: yes jonathan.
[12:56] Lucia Nightfire: not sure on that sim edge stop issue, Tiberious
[12:56] Andrew Linden: We will see if it helps at all.
[12:56] Andrew Linden: Tiberious, I'll try to test the off-world issue...
[12:57] Andrew Linden: I wonder if your sliding prim was hitting a physical barrier -- an invisible upward ramp on the terrain perhaps?
[12:58] Andrew Linden: I would try throwing the object off-world to see if it gets returned or not.
[12:58] Jonathan Yap: easy enough to test right here
[12:58] Andrew Linden: Oh yeah, one other little bit of news... I've got some interestlist work that didn't quite make it into the Magnum RC
[12:59] Andrew Linden: but this work is almost ready for testing
[12:59] Andrew Linden: so I'll be trying to get it into a maintenance branch or something for a follow-up release
[12:59] Rex Cronon: even group chats r now experiencing out of order texts, and delayed ones
[12:59] Andrew Linden: some more optimizations in interestlist performance is all.
[12:59] TankMaster Finesmith: classic clouds is still dead with the interest list update, right?
[13:00] Andrew Linden: yes TankMaster, the server will no longer be sending cloud density dataq
[13:00] Andrew Linden: the density data was used to help the viewer place the legacy cloud sprites
[13:00] Andrew Linden: so now that data is all zero -- the viewer won't be placing the legacy sprites.
[13:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[13:01] Motor Loon: good riddance
[13:01] Andrew Linden: we were still sending this cloud data (one small packet a second) to all viewers, legacy or not
[13:01] TankMaster Finesmith: less unused data sent, the better
[13:01] Andrew Linden: yup
[13:02] Andrew Linden: ok thanks for coming everyone
[13:02] Jonathan Yap: Thank you Andrew and Kelly
[13:02] Lares Carter: Thanks for the meeting.
[13:02] Theresa Tennyson: Thank you!
[13:02] Nalates Urriah: Thanks Lindens
[13:02] Kelly Linden: o/
[13:02] Inara Pey: Thanks, Andrew, Kelly
[13:02] TankMaster Finesmith: have a good week
[13:02] Sonya Haight: I just got here, darn it start another meeting!
[13:02] Yuzuru Jewell: Thank you Lindens.
[13:02] Rex Cronon: tc every one that is leaving
[13:03] Motor Loon: hehe
[13:03] NeoBokrug Elytis: Packets Lost: 5,133/14,013 (36.6%)
[13:03] Rex Cronon: i hope u lindens can fix this problem:)
[13:03] Rex Cronon: good luck:)
Simulator_User_Group
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