Doc Team/2010-04-21

== Transcript ==
[13:03]	:	Pity the new consolr room design is probably gonna be REALLY primmy to reproduce here in SL... :D
[13:03]	:	hi Jeremy :)
[13:03]	 	has pinged you.
[13:03]	:	Jeremy Linden in tha hizzouse!
[13:03]	 	has pinged you.
[13:03]	:	Hi all!
[13:03]	:	all sl veiwers don't work
[13:04]	:	Testing synth voice 1 2 3
[13:04]	:	Entering god mode, level 200
[13:04]	:	ladygaga, are you accessing SL from a different machine right now?
[13:04]	:	/me notices a lack of house :)
[13:04]	:	Rezzing seems to be having new problems after the server upgrade.
[13:04]	:	HELLOOOOOOOo KNEES!!!!
[13:04]	:	hahaha Dr. Who theme music that's great
[13:04]	:	my sl sound is dead
[13:05]	:	ladygaga, i wish i knew more but i'm not on Linux
[13:05]	:	Nice gettup today, Torley. I like the bag.
[13:05]	:	Maybe shouldn't encorage sound files here. They hit all our bandwidth/
[13:05]	:	thanks Nathan, my book?
[13:05]	:	meow
[13:06]	:	/me snickers
[13:06]	:	'sup?
[13:06]	:	Ante! been a long time!
[13:07]	:	Hi Cisop :))
[13:07]	:	Hi
[13:07]	:	Yeah. I'm never on much anymore. :o
[13:07]	:	I saw your tweet and I wasn't doing anything.
[13:07]	:	nice Treet to day Torley
[13:08]	:	well welcome to our office hours! it's usually more casual than it seems at first glance
[13:08]	:	Did that put out a transcript of last weeks meeting? COuldn't find it at the usual URL.
[13:08]	:	*they
[13:08]	:	Nathan, http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Documentation_Office_Hours ?
[13:09]	:	i see it there
[13:09]	:	my most recent tip for http://secondlife.com/tnt was to try right-clicking on just about everything in Viewer 2
[13:09]	:	there are a lot of handy contextual menu items that are quicker to access than clicking various buttons and what have you not
[13:09]	:	HALLO!
[13:09]	:	Greetings!
[13:10]	:	ty
[13:10]	:	the KB or wiki needs better info on the Object Rendering cost in Viewer 2 some thing that not owny shows the cost but a graph that shows older PC's to New PC's and the rendering cost out come in rez time ....
[13:10]	:	"They" only caught the last few minutes of last week's office hour, so I couldn't archive it :-/
[13:11]	:	no worries Jeremy i got the bulk of it and put it up
[13:11]	 	has pinged you.
[13:11]	:	Does anybody see me as naked?
[13:11]	:	xstorm, yeah, i've heard that asked every now and then -- making more sense of what it makes relative to other things, i forwarded that to Nyx and Seraph Linden for a future FAQ...
[13:11]	:	I don't see anyone naked.... dratts. :(
[13:12]	:	i've been in a couple company meetings recently where we had a naked linden
[13:12]	:	lol OMG!! i just asked poor Nyx that he will hate me for it soon lol
[13:12]	:	If *I* showed up naked here, by system glitch, I'd be in deep doodoo.
[13:12]	:	xstorm, haha, well it's a natural curiosity
[13:13]	:	I'm sorry, I seem to have missed a question about rendering costs?
[13:13]	:	I need the rendering data and info to help others that have sims
[13:13]	:	I was over at BCI Kuula and they were having dreadfully slow AV rezzing after the server rollout.
[13:13]	:	BCI or NCI?
[13:14]	:	Some of it could have been my viewer, but everyone was seeing a slow-down.
[13:14]	:	NCI, the well-known typing error.
[13:14]	:	/me wonders if we're going to be hearing that Who theme snippet looping the whole meeting.
[13:14]	:	you missing your Rendering KB ? Jeremy ?
[13:14]	 	has pinged you.
[13:15]	:	The sort of statistics you're asking for are beyond my understanding of rendering costs right now, sadly.
[13:15]	:	However, Nyx did warn me that rendering costs did change slightly with Viewer 2.0
[13:15]	:	HOLY PARTICLES
[13:15]	:	LOL
[13:16]	:	Its Particle man
[13:16]	:	TP poofer, I take it?
[13:16]	:	its ok i have been having problems with tect support too do to i ask thing they have no clue what im asking them at times
[13:16]	:	For a minute there, I though a Linden was griefting us.
[13:16]	:	lol
[13:16]	:	yes
[13:16]	:	Tech Support is no match for the departed Mentors, I take it?
[13:16]	:	hello all
[13:16]	:	Poor nametag placemnet.
[13:17]	:	Second Life Answers might be a good place to ask, if you're looking for a specific technique, maybe?
[13:17]	:	if i ask them to find a way to stop mega prims from other people blotting out the mini map they look on the big map and say what mega prim
[13:17]	:	http://blogs.secondlife.com/community/answers
[13:17]	:	100% alphas use a lot more rendering cost than i imagined and we all use 100% alpha to hide faces we dont need in things like hair :(
[13:18]	:	Is someone automatically looping Doctor Who gestures?
[13:18]	:	sorry Jeremy if it was in the KB or Wiki i not be asking live chat for help
[13:18]	 	has pinged you.
[13:18]	:	Delete them
[13:18]	:	*turns on sound beacons*
[13:18]	:	/me turns on sound bacon
[13:19]	:	/me thinks Bacon sounds good.
[13:19]	:	Yummmmmmm.... bacon....! :D
[13:19]	:	Chaley, that's true. The rendering engine needs to make all kinds of additional calculations on transparent objects.
[13:19]	:	Chaley, really? where are you seeing that? 100% alphas should not be rendered at *all*... that's the whole point
[13:20]	:	rezz a prim and make it 100% alpha you will see
[13:20]	:	Torley, that's true of alpha masks on avatars, but not necessarily on transparent prims.
[13:20]	:	most intriguing, as Spock would say. last time i really looked at that was ages ago.
[13:20]	:	(BigPapi explained this to me once, I'm not doing it justice.)
[13:20]	:	Highlight Transparent should still work
[13:20]	:	yeah it seems like one of those counterintuitive things, Jeremy...
[13:20]	 	has pinged you.
[13:21]	:	because it seems although we cant see it the face exists and is rendered.. which is why we can see it when we press alt+t
[13:21]	:	There's some querying whether Viewer 2 is more prone to the OpenGL alpha-layer overlap problem.
[13:21]	:	Well, when you think about it from a computer's perspective, the computer knows the object is there, and it needs to figure out how much of the stuff behind the transparent object it needs to render, which one should be on top, etc.
[13:21]	:	that's not totally accurate, Chaley, because alpha masks are shown in red when Highlight Transparent is on
[13:22]	:	These sound like questions for someone like Nyx, to be honest :-P
[13:22]	:	avatars have different rules anyway and what a person wears like skin and clothes doesnt contribute to arc anyway
[13:22]	:	yes Nyx is better at that
[13:23]	:	Doc Lindens would be looking on whether the Nyx Only Known is documented
[13:23]	:	Daniel your toy making sounds ?
[13:23]	:	i think an avaatr with no prims attached is always an ARC of 1
[13:24]	:	Andrew went above one, by wearing a skin
[13:24]	:	Chaley, that has changed in Viewer 2.0. A base avatar now has a value of 100.
[13:24]	:	ok
[13:24]	:	Must be the Screwdriver. :p
[13:24]	:	sonic
[13:24]	:	super sonic lol
[13:24]	:	viewer 2 EEP!
[13:25]	:	/me idly envisions a screwdriver for hedgehogs.
[13:25]	:	i think i read it somewhere on a wiki
[13:25]	:	I know the old ARC system used colour codes as well. I hope you haven't made the mistake the Emerald people made, and left the colour codes unchanged.
[13:25]	:	/me wonders what a melding of Sonic with The Doctor would be like.
[13:25]	:	hello all
[13:25]	:	hi Quarterback, welcome to Doc Team office hours!
[13:25]	:	Torley, nice av :)
[13:25]	:	thanks torley :)
[13:25]	:	Doctor Who, as a cartoon hedgehog, in his next regen?
[13:26]	:	hehe
[13:26]	:	Jeremy and I are here to answer any questions abotu Second Life documentation ye may have :D
[13:26]	 	has pinged you.
[13:26]	:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Avatar_Rendering_Cost
[13:26]	:	thanks Daniel, this came together so naturally, the umbrella was the finishing touch
[13:26]	:	thats what i read
[13:26]	:	An avatar with no attachments has a score of 1.
 You can have the fanciest possible Linden (aka mesh) clothing, hair, and shoes, and still have a score of 1.
[13:26]	:	hmmm ok :) oh i've found your tutorials helpful and enjoyable on some parts lol
[13:26]	:	on youtube
[13:26]	:	A younger cartoon hedgehog for the 12th doctor perhaps. lol
[13:26]	:	What is the issue with colors and Emerald?
[13:26]	:	why thanks Quarterback! did you originally find them on YouTube or did you find them linked elsewhere?
[13:27]	:	Chaley, that's what I recall. You get a lot added with flexiprimes, for instance.
[13:27]	:	i was told about them and i was given the link for the youtube vids
[13:27]	:	hi Mud
[13:27]	:	go to fly Mud
[13:27]	:	ahh cool Quarterback, i always like to know how people discover 'em
[13:27]	:	Chaley, I think that article might be a bit outdated. The base score changed from 1 to 100.
[13:28]	:	I'm a alien really. lol
[13:28]	:	fair enough buddy
[13:28]	:	Admittedly, we're a little behind on updating the whole wiki to Viewer 2.0 :-)
[13:28]	:	oooh a crowd...
[13:28]	:	/me recalls that even a linden may edit a wiki
[13:28]	:	it would be good if you updated it but also kept the old version for older clients
[13:28]	:	mud do a rebake it may help you
[13:28]	:	/me edits the wiki.
[13:28]	:	i can't get on with viewer 2 :( layout is so alien from what i'm used to lol
[13:28]	:	meh - I'll just flip outfits
[13:28]	:	and yes Chaley we're planning on doing that, until such time in the future that Version 2 is the old one ;)
[13:28]	:	ok :-)
[13:29]	:	/me undoes changes to wiki.
[13:29]	:	Quarterback, allow yourself some time to get used to it... just like you got used to SL in the first place... can't rush that... =)
[13:29]	:	What Emerald did, when they revamped their ARC system to reflect texture sizes, was to keep the same numeric boundaries for the green/amber/red, and nearly weverything came through as red.
[13:29]	:	if you need any more help Mud please let me know
[13:29]	:	yer true matey
[13:29]	:	But they fixed that later?
[13:31]	:	Nathan, it looks like they just stopped colour-coding the ARC number.
[13:31]	:	Yes Daniel its your sonic screw driver
[13:31]	:	it has UUID of sound files in its script
[13:32]	:	i think i just heard the chuckle brothers
[13:32]	:	so, detach the sonic screwdriver?
[13:32]	:	torley im just trying to work out what your av is meant to be lol
[13:32]	:	apart from greeny :)
[13:32]	:	a bit funny if you ask me
[13:32]	:	/me likes the color green.
[13:32]	:	i hail from another dominion
[13:32]	:	Torley appears to be a Colorful Old One
[13:33]	:	so whats the topic of debate guys
[13:33]	:	(See: H.P. Lovecraft, but colorful)
[13:33]	:	heh
[13:33]	:	The Watermelon Patch From Beyond.
[13:33]	:	the very sight of me shall drive you insane
[13:33]	:	haha Merlin
[13:33]	:	Torley is a old Linden God with a island i love to drop in to from time to time go see it to day
[13:33]	:	Quarterback, we like to discuss anything regarding Second Life documentation (online help, the wiki, etc)
[13:34]	:	lol
[13:34]	:	I've got a clthulhu tiny av in my inventory, cutest thing you ever see. Ironic, considering how "cute" and "Cthulhu" don't even remotely intersect usualy. :D
[13:34]	:	Daniel im going to poke you in a bit lol
[13:34]	:	fair enough jer
[13:34]	:	Is there a tiny steamship to ram him with?
[13:34]	:	lol
[13:35]	:	Nathan, it sounds like a portmanteau... Cute-hulhu?
[13:35]	:	Hah.
[13:35]	:	And I just realised it was Jeremy Linden's bag thingy I was looking at earlier, not Torley's book. heh.
[13:35]	 	has pinged you.
[13:35]	:	Aha! Well, thanks.
[13:36]	:	/me wonders if it's possible to relocate to New York or Massachusetts: Is customer service looking for people of intelligence?
[13:37]	:	people without viewer 2.0 can stil see alpha masks and tatoo layes things correctly right?
[13:37]	:	Correct, Derek.
[13:38]	:	/me is inclined to cynicism about the term "customer service".
[13:38]	:	It was a freebee I got at Hobo Island.
[13:38]	:	good, just making shure
[13:38]	:	hello laurent
[13:38]	:	hello
[13:38]	:	me raises his eybrow at the cynicism: Is Wolf unfamiliar with How To Serve Man?
[13:39]	:	Nom nom nom
[13:39]	:	Did notice one way to get a little more zip out of viewer 2.0 if you have nvidia, in the nvidia control panel disable the threading feature.
[13:39]	:	with a side order of fries
[13:39]	:	Oh, interesting tip, KristenLee.
[13:39]	:	or create a special profile for secondlife with nvidia threading off
[13:39]	:	i haven't tried that KirstenLee, how did you discover that?
[13:40]	:	/me looks for the control panel
[13:40]	:	was running the other day with it off and on
[13:40]	:	with it on frame rate seemed locked
[13:40]	:	with it off i gained a huge boost
[13:41]	:	neat stick figure av, Laurent.
[13:41]	:	i'm going to see if that makes a difference for me later
[13:41]	:	hmm - I got have such control panel - serves me right for running linux I guess - I'm assuming you're talking about a windows configuration?
[13:41]	:	:)
[13:41]	:	i have another cureious question, i was trying on a tux and pants yesterday and i noticed the icon looked like a skin insted of shirt pants icon, and when i tried to wear more than one it replaces the other, it would wera them noth in viewer 1, how were these made or why they wont work the same in 2.0?
[13:41]	:	*not have the control panel - *CENSORED* keyboard
[13:41]	:	linux is unaffected
[13:41]	:	is the media browser any better in viewer 2? the one in emerald isn't that good for me lol
[13:42]	:	i have to paste any links into main broswer
[13:42]	:	I prefer my main browser anyway - has all my usual script-blocking tools and stuff
[13:43]	:	Quarterback, the Viewer's built-in web browser?
[13:43]	:	ah yer good point mud
[13:43]	:	Yeah, I routinely set my viwer(s) to send web URLs to an external browser, too.
[13:43]	:	/me wonders that Firefox became a crippling resource hog, recently.
[13:43]	:	yes torley like the one that come sup when u click on a link in chat
[13:43]	:	Derek, I'm not familiar with that particular issue... There are some types of inventory (outfits, alpha masks, tattoo layers) that won't necessarily work correctly in pre-Viewer 2 viewers, though.
[13:43]	:	i usually copy that link onto main browser and read it off second life
[13:43]	:	away from second life*
[13:44]	:	Quarterback, yes... in fact, in Viewer 2, you can right-click an URL in NEARBY CHAT history and select whether you want to open it in the internal or external browser.
[13:44]	:	you can also right-click and copy the URL
[13:44]	:	My hardware may e too old for there to be a threading option.
[13:44]	:	i'll give you a copy of the outfit jeremey and you can investigate later...
[13:44]	:	its an odd issue
[13:44]	:	those of you in Viewer 2 can try: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Blog_FAQ
[13:44]	:	hmmm slowly starting to warm to the idea of trying out viewer 2 again lol
[13:45]	:	SLurls behave similarly, e.g., http://slurl.com/secondlife/Beaumont/25/165/34
[13:45]	:	/me finds the still crappy view better in Snowglobe
[13:45]	:	O.o
[13:45]	:	/me notices KirstenLee. "I'me happy to say I managed to get Kirsten 2.0 svn source built and running on my Linux system."
[13:46]	:	try right-clicking just about everywhere in Viewer 2, as i wrote on http://secondlife.com/tnt there are tons of shortcuts not obvious at first glance
[13:46]	:	Sounds like an easter egg hunt. :)
[13:46]	:	did an uptodate linux binary today
[13:46]	:	cool i'll take alook at that torley
[13:47]	:	Cisop, the good thing is in most cases, what you'll see makes sense, e.g., right-click on the navigation bar and you'll see the options relate to it. hence why it's a context menu. :)
[13:47]	:	re: what i said earlier about NEARBY CHAT, that applies both if you open a NEARBY CHAT window (by clicking the ^ button on the right of the char bar) and on the floating overlay... either way works
[13:48]	:	Torley what about better defined info for older users such as some sort of power tools in viewer 2 and the better info on Develop and Advanced debug ????
[13:48]	:	However, right clicking on the dots in the mini-map doesn't let me bring up that dots profile like it did in 1.23. Hopeing soon it will.
[13:48]	:	that'll come out in time, xstorm. it's a lesser priority because Advanced isn't officially supported. but i sure do like a lot of the tricks inside.
[13:48]	:	yup Cisop, either you or someone else mentioned that last time...
[13:49]	:	I think it was me. :)
[13:49]	:	Advanced Menu is not supported?
[13:49]	:	so the advanced menu is really just handy hidden fluff then?
[13:49]	:	not fluff, Mudslinger. but handy and hidden are true.
[13:49]	:	But Torley is not second life still for the older users or are the older users getting ignored ?
[13:50]	:	/me has the advanced and develop menus up :P
[13:50]	:	So why did the Stop Animation thing get moved into the Advanced menu?
[13:50]	:	xstorm, you ask that in a needlessly loaded way. :) explain how "older users" relates to "Advanced menu"?
[13:50]	:	/me figures Tech Support is only for the new users, so only new users are hired
[13:50]	:	how many older users know what texture atlas or triangle strip rendering does ^^
[13:51]	:	Viewer 2.0 was specifically designed to help new Residents, but we haven't forgotten older Residents along the way. There's some pretty cool stuff coming that we can't really talk about yet :-)
[13:51]	:	is there anyone here who doesnt have the advanced menu turned on?
[13:51]	:	/me looks forward to cool stuff.
[13:51]	:	/me always has Advenaced menu turned on, but he's using Emerald and the like
[13:52]	:	i always activate it too
[13:52]	:	/me cant wait to see whats next
[13:52]	:	ok thats not to hard lets look at many of the things like stop animation and Debug commands that can better help a older user fine tune there system
[13:52]	:	/me has it up but never uses it :P
[13:52]	:	/me has her Advanced menu active as well.
[13:52]	:	*switches advanced menu off* .... yes! .... *switches advanced menu back on*
[13:52]	:	✯✯ HA-HA! ✯✯
[13:52]	:	xstorm, but it can help relatively newer users who started on Viewer 2. the point is: Second Life can be overwhelming when you get started, so most people have no immediate interest in it.
[13:52]	:	and so many other things we older users use is not left in Advanced
[13:52]	:	HOWEVER, as time passes... then yes, Advanced and other under-the-hood tweaks become more relevant.
[13:53]	:	/me can't use <ctrl><alt><shft>t without Advanced active.
[13:53]	:	The first time I used Viewer 2, and stood up from a chair, and the sit animation wouldn't stop. Couldn't find Stop Animation.
[13:53]	:	most of the stuff in Advanced relies on direct inworld experience. e.g., you won't need it unless you know what it's for.
[13:53]	:	i think that for new users Stop Animation is very important
[13:53]	:	Stop Animation never worked, anyways
[13:53]	:	ok then will second life make a 64 bit viewer for older power users ?
[13:53]	:	I suppose we should be careful to point out that when we says the Advanced menu is "not supported", what we mean is that it's "use at your own risk". If you do something crazy, Support might have a very hard time figuring out what happened.
[13:53]	:	and i need all the help i can get with viewer 2 haha
[13:53]	:	some of the older animation bugs that needed that workaround were fixed -- i know there are some out there.
[13:54]	:	Stop Animation works for me... too bad it is now in the Advanced menu.
[13:54]	:	Theres been alot of votes on the viewer 2 poll http://blogs.secondlife.com/poll.jspa?poll=1018 - 1,489 votes O.o
[13:54]	:	ok how about stop all animations? why is that in advanced?
[13:54]	:	it's like, really, if the system was fully automated, you wouldn't have to manually rebake textures either.
[13:54]	:	surely the "stop animating my ass" option could be placed in the help menu - I've seen so many newbies come out of a dance club and have trouble trying to stop their avvie from continuous seizures?
[13:54]	:	so some of the things in Advanced are there because underlying bugs haven't been fixed.
[13:54]	:	Anyone having problems with postcards ? It's been several days that I can't send anyone without an error message
[13:54]	:	im sure i'll get used to it, i've heard it runs better than emerald anyhow
[13:54]	:	it just seems Viewer 2 has been dumb down so much its no longer the tool for older users
[13:55]	:	Muslinger, or, better UIs for dance balls. some will stop animating you when you leave a club or otherwise get out of range.
[13:55]	:	Woah! "I don't like it. (87%)"
[13:55]	:	OMG Laurent, i hate this bug: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-5387
[13:55]	:	3% love it lol
[13:55]	:	i'm waiting for a status update on who can actually work on it
[13:56]	:	looks like its been expired for the viewer 2 poll now
[13:56]	:	I think we've got a problem with communication that dates back to when Windows was just a Bill Gates wet dream. How do you split up the menu system in a way which makes sense?
[13:56]	:	one thing to remember with polls is early reactions may be *very* different from ones later on...
[13:56]	:	true - but not all creators are gonna design that and some will no doubt not bother upgrading their danceballs unless they break
[13:56]	:	anyone familiar with the Nintendo Wii? the very name of it got a brutal thrashing in polls. but look how it went on to sell successfully and most people aren't bothered by the name now.
[13:56]	:	there are things that i do love about viewer 2 and almost none should be exclusive to viewer 2.. i guess when they get ported to the old viewer viewer 2 will be even less popular
[13:56]	:	improved polls come with improvements
[13:56]	:	so the temporal factor is an important one...
[13:56]	:	Torley a Custom UI menu and a 64 bit viewer for older users may help in a lot of ways
[13:57]	:	but Im just a static cat
[13:57]	:	i do prefer workarounds to exist when there isn't a more seamless or elegant solution, it's true. and like previously, there are sure to be other features that get graduated out of Advanced.
[13:58]	:	My idea of an elegant solution is to get a bigger hammer.
[13:58]	:	or at least a "beginner" and a "advanced" mode for the viewer - so newbies can get a simple interface - and oldies and the tech savvy can easily adjust their settings after an install to have all the groovy tools
[13:58]	:	Mudslinger, on that note, that's where there parallel development track for third-party viewers comes in...
[13:58]	:	that will be viewer 3.0
[13:58]	:	Torley when im working with a problem sim to find out whats giving a sim problems i have to use many of them tools
[13:59]	:	but TPV are not supported
[13:59]	:	Oh must run, thank you for a most informative group.
 
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