Mesh/Archive/2012-07-02

==Agenda==
# Where can i find an example file how to embed an image (not by reference but directly) into a .dae file so that the SL Importer recognizes that image and accepts it during import ? Gaia Clary 01:56, 25 June 2012 (PDT)
# What's the status on custom bone import? Raz Welles
# When will you be able to define your own shape keys for the edit shape sliders? (Jump to agenda item 12, same question but much better phrased.) [Davido Chrome]
# Collada supports mesh morph targets. Is it possible to extend SL's shape modifiers to act on any suitably named mesh target (and obviously the importer too)? This might be a fairly simple change internally as they are already driving ~90 such targets in the default set of meshes. This would then mean that designers could reuse the shape sliders (ideally renaming them) to drive their own mesh morphs and create characters which can be shaped by end users... Gaia Clary 05:19, 2 July 2012 (PDT)
# Did the road bump problem solved? I covered the seam of road by normal prim but my car bumps. Yuzuru Jewell 12:06, 25 June 2012 (PDT) 
# Any new information on Redpoly's C-Bones method? Nalates Urriah 18:12, 25 June 2012 (PDT)
# Please update us with progress on texture upload issues as reported in VWR-29183 Gaia Clary 23:50, 25 June 2012 (PDT)
# Please update us with progress on upload issues with missing bones in SH-2047 Gaia Clary 23:50, 25 June 2012 (PDT)
# Can we please have a "show avatar skeleton" like the "show collision skeleton"? That would be tremendously helpful for creating custom mesh characters and seeing how the skeleton is reacting to animations. Ideally there should be a "show attachment points" too. Gaia Clary 05:19, 2 July 2012 (PDT)
# it's possible to move a bone in three different ways. (How do these interact with each other? Gaia Clary 05:19, 2 July 2012 (PDT) ):
#* via the skeleton structure in collada,
#* via the shape worn,
#* via an animation.
# With the attachment points and the volume deform bones the SL avatar has 77 bones that can be rigged and animated. What is the max number of animatable bones that a single mesh can contain? For that matter what are ALL the technical limitations of mesh in SL? Could these be listed somewhere ? Gaia Clary 05:19, 2 July 2012 (PDT)
# Baked textures and you! What our recent blog post means (http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Tools-and-Technology/Project-Shining-to-Improve-Avatar-and-Object-Streaming-Speeds/ba-p/1583465) Nyx Linden 11:22, 2 July 2012 (PDT)
==Meeting Notes==
==Attendees List==
*Aki Shichiroji (aki.shichiroji)
*Asha (ashasekayi.ra)
*Braydon Randt (braydon.randt)
*√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome)
*DrFran Babcock (drfran.babcock)
*Drongle McMahon (drongle.mcmahon)
*Gaia Clary (gaia.clary)
*JIRA-helper (jira-helper)
*„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan)
*Motor Loon (motor.loon)
*Nal (nalates.urriah)
*Nyx Linden (nyx.linden)
*Quenemue Cyberstar (quenemue.cyberstar)
*Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)
*Typhaon Nishi (typhaon.nishi)
*Usuki (usuki.tachikawa)
*Vivian Pinelli (vivian.pinelli)
*Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)
==Transcript for Monday July 2, 2012==
[12:02]	Nyx Linden 	alright, shall we get started?
[12:02]	Motor Loon 	yep
[12:02]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Yes indeed
[12:02]	Nyx Linden 	topic #1 "Where can i find an example file how to embed an image (not by reference but directly) into a .dae file so that the SL Importer recognizes that image and accepts it during import ? Gaia Clary 01:56, 25 June 2012 (PDT)"
[12:03]	Nyx Linden 	Its supposed to "just work" but I'd try having the collada file either have the full file path to the image, or have the image be in the same directory as the collada file itself.
[12:03]	Nyx Linden 	Pretty sure there are some bugs around this even so, though.
[12:03]	Gaia Clary 	the question is how to embed an image...
[12:03]	Gaia Clary 	INTO the dae file
[12:03]	Motor Loon 	also you dont get the texture as a "regular" asset in your inventory
[12:04]	Motor Loon 	kinda a big downside to it
[12:04]	Aki Shichiroji 	hmm i'm pretty sure i've tried linking to a texture within the same folder from my .blend and .dae files... it's never worked for me.
[12:04]	Gaia Clary 	Motor loon you can use the copy tool when you rezz such a mesh :)
[12:04]	Motor Loon 	really?
[12:04]	Gaia Clary 	Aki it works for static meshes.
[12:04]	Nyx Linden 	hrm, we should create an image item in inventory at the same time, good point.
[12:04]	Aki Shichiroji 	the majority of what i work with are static meshes.
[12:05]	Motor Loon 	yeah I would love it it did that Nyx
[12:05]	Motor Loon 	"if it"
[12:05]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Yea, it has worked since Blender 2.49 for static mesh.
[12:05]	Gaia Clary 	Aki, i have tested it 1000 times meanwhile :)
[12:05]	Nyx Linden 	as for embedding the image data directly into the collada file, we don't support that.
[12:05]	Gaia Clary 	and i know how to get textures uploaded with rigged mesh.
[12:05]	Gaia Clary 	however thats a bad hacking
[12:05]	Motor Loon 	we get charged the same 10l$ for each texture right?
[12:05]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	I believe so
[12:05]	Gaia Clary 	Nyx, i have spoken to TheBlack Box. he claims he can do it...
[12:06]	Aki Shichiroji 	is there a video somewhere that shows the best practice for this, Gaia? because I routinely add textures to my materials in Blender for baking but they do not get packaged up alongside :(
[12:06]	Nyx Linden 	yep, the texture upload fee will be part of the whole model upload fee if the viewer can find the texture, and the upload succeeds/
[12:06]	Motor Loon 	nods
[12:06]	Gaia Clary 	Aki, blender 2.64 will make this just work
[12:06]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Do you put them in the material slots Aki or leave them in the UV window?
[12:06]	Motor Loon 	then perfectly fair we also get an inventory asset along with the mesh
[12:06]	Nyx Linden 	(you won't get charged with textures that fail to upload or cannot be found)
[12:06]	Aki Shichiroji 	Asha: material slots.
[12:06]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	This isn't exactly a show stopper though, just a slight inconvenience?
[12:07]	Nyx Linden 	right, its not a top priority issue, but a JIRA requesting that an inventory item gets made for your texture would be appreciated.
[12:07]	Aki Shichiroji 	no, definitely not a showstopper.
[12:07]	Gaia Clary 	Nyx, 2 questions further down ... in the agenda ...
[12:07]	Drongle McMahon 	Gaia, why do you want to embed them?
[12:07]	Nyx Linden 	as are the reports on textures that do not get imported correctly.
[12:07]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	It should work if you have your textures in the material slots with relative checked. But as Gaia said, the latest daily builds have an option to package them for you. (Static mesh that is)
[12:08]	Gaia Clary 	i want to embed them so that i have only one single dae file
[12:08]	Aki Shichiroji 	oog. i haven't been keeping up with daily builds - just major subversions. I'm on 2.63 now.
[12:08]	Aki Shichiroji 	i'll have a look, thanks.
[12:08]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Welcome
[12:08]	Nyx Linden 	that would definitely be a change from how the importer works now, we'll need a jira for the feature request that we can triage.
[12:09]	Gaia Clary 	ok
[12:09]	Nyx Linden 	it won't be high priority, but if someone is looking at that code anyways. That being said, third party devs are welcome to take a crack at it as well :)
[12:10]	Motor Loon 	shall we jump to next item... there's a lot after all
[12:10]	Nyx Linden 	email me the jira numbers for the new feature request and any bug reports and I'll let the triage lindens know that this was requested at the usergroup
[12:10]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "Where can i find an example file how to embed an image (not by reference but directly) into a .dae file so that the SL Importer recognizes that image and accepts it during import ? Gaia Clary 01:56, 25 June 2012 (PDT)"
[12:10]	Nyx Linden 	err "What's the status on custom bone import? Raz Welles"
[12:11]	Nyx Linden 	to my knowledge we are not currently actively working on custom skeletons yet.
[12:11]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	+1
[12:11]	Quenemue Cyberstar 	that would be some huge improvement
[12:12]	Motor Loon 	another one for a feature request jira-- if its not there already eh
[12:12]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Link it. I will vote and watch.
[12:12]	Nyx Linden 	I'm fairly certain there is a jira or two for that one already
[12:12]	Gaia Clary 	by custom skeleton you mean custom bones ?
[12:12]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	It really would be a great feature to have.
[12:12]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Yes Gaia
[12:12]	Nyx Linden 	by custom skeleton I mean adding new bones or having a non-standard linkage between bones
[12:12]	Gaia Clary 	havent we talked about that for a year or even longer ? :)
[12:13]	Quenemue Cyberstar 	possibility to just simply replace the whole avatar skeleton with own custom one would be great
[12:13]	Drongle McMahon 	Longer
[12:13]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Much longer
[12:13]	Motor Loon 	nods
[12:13]	Nyx Linden 	yep, and its a complex project, but we've had many other complex projects to tackle in the meantime
[12:13]	Nyx Linden 	*grumbles about the tiny robot cloning machine being broken*
[12:13]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Cloudn Party is making the idea of custom skeletons popular.
[12:13]	Quenemue Cyberstar 	since avatars like im wearing right now has to use specially designed animations anyway
[12:14]	Nyx Linden 	on a completely unrelated note *cough* http://lindenlab.com/careers
[12:14]	Gaia Clary 	actually having a limited skeleton has also advantages.
[12:14]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Yeah, would be nice to be able to animate a tail like that without sacrificing a hand.
[12:15]	Aki Shichiroji 	Art Director!
[12:15]	Motor Loon 	hireing alot eh?
[12:15]	Aki Shichiroji 	Too bad all of your hiring seems tied solely to San Francisco.
[12:15]	Nyx Linden 	so no custom skeletons being worked on for now.
[12:15]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "When will you be able to define your own shape keys for the edit shape sliders? (Jump to agenda item 12, same question but much better phrased.) [Davido Chrome]"
[12:15]	Nyx Linden 	alt text: "Collada supports mesh morph targets. Is it possible to extend SL's shape modifiers to act on any suitably named mesh target (and obviously the importer too)? This might be a fairly simple change internally as they are already driving ~90 such targets in the default set of meshes. This would then mean that designers could reuse the shape sliders (ideally renaming them) to drive their own mesh morphs and create characters which can be shaped by end users... Gaia Clary 05:19, 2 July 2012 (PDT)"
[12:16]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan) 	Hello!! ÔΩèÔºàÔºæÔºçÔºæÔΩèÔºâ
[12:16]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Hiya Kitune
[12:16]	Usuki (usuki.tachikawa) 	hi Kitsune :)
[12:16]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	*Kitsune
[12:17]	Nyx Linden 	possible? yes, but it would require quite a bit of work. We would have to transmit with every avatar what parameters it was using or wasn't using, and how to interpret them. Essentially we would have to send out avatar.xml along with each avatar.
[12:17]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan) 	link to agenda please?
[12:17]	Aki Shichiroji 	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group
[12:17]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan) 	thx
[12:17]	DrFran Babcock 	agenda is here, though we're pretty full up for topics this week: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group
[12:18]	Gaia Clary 	i think the idea was to reuse the shape keys but let them drive custom mesh ...
[12:18]	Gaia Clary 	so that should work without changing the avatar_skeleton.xml at all
[12:18]	Nyx Linden 	ah, I interpreted "extend the modifiers" to mean adding new ones
[12:19]	Gaia Clary 	well, that is a question from Magus, i interpreted it less ambitious :)
[12:19]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Extending is for when you can import custom rigs.
[12:19]	Nyx Linden 	renaming them wouldn't really be do-able, and a lot of them already affect a lot of things under the hood
[12:19]	Gaia Clary 	yes :)
[12:19]	Gaia Clary 	we have become very good in reverse engineering the SL skeleton :)
[12:20]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan) 	aww I come too late to add a suggestion to the agenda :P
[12:20]	Nyx Linden 	you can add more to the agenda kitsune, but we may not get to it this week.
[12:21]	Nyx Linden 	Is it technically possible to use the current morph params on imported meshes? possibly, with a lot of work and hackery, but I worry that it wouldn't be a very good experience.
[12:23]	Gaia Clary 	well, i mean... shape keys are shape keys...
[12:23]	Nyx Linden 	please add new topics to the bottom of the agenda 3D :)
[12:23]	Nyx Linden 	Gaia - yes, but one shape key presented to the user can often affect several others under the hood in odd and interesting ways
[12:23]	Gaia Clary 	and when a mesh supplies shape key targets.. what is the big problem then ?
[12:24]	Gaia Clary 	hmm, ok thats true...
[12:24]	Nyx Linden 	we only present a fraction of the total keys in the user interface
[12:24]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan) 	Ugh, I cnt edit agenda. Anyway my suggestions are pretty simple and short. Edges show are white over white meshes, so arent visibles at all. And Z offset is usless without a plane reference as floor. Just that
[12:24]	Nyx Linden 	Kitsune - log in to the wiki and you should be able to edit it, PM me if you continue to have trouble.
[12:24]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan) 	yeah im loged
[12:25]	Gaia Clary 	we counted 120 shape parameters, i have not counted the number of shape keys, but i guess there are lot more yes.
[12:25]	Nyx Linden 	also, if we cannot change the labels on the shape keys, I'm guessing they become much less intuitive, unless everyone is creating human avatars that deform exactly how our default avatar deforms.
[12:26]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Which there are a few of floating around, because the weighting of the SL avatar is so bad.
[12:26]	Motor Loon 	(added for you Kitsune)
[12:26]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan) 	thanks!
[12:26]	Gaia Clary 	well, ok i see the problem
[12:27]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	And non human avatars already needs to come with documentation, in many cases.
[12:27]	Nyx Linden 	so is it possible? it would take some viewer-side hackery, but technically yes. But I doubt it will be as useful as a more general-purpose solution
[12:28]	Gaia Clary 	maybe... the whole questions is born because we fear there will be no more generalised solution ...
[12:28]	Nyx Linden 	where such a project would lie on the list of priorities, I could not say.
[12:28]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	It would allow for some badly needed costumisability of Mesh avatars. I am kinda of of the opinion that lockin people into body shapes is kinda dangerous. Anorexia and all that.
[12:28]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	O.o
[12:28]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan) 	lol
[12:28]	Motor Loon 	hehe
[12:29]	Motor Loon 	"I dont wanna be Ken... Barbie"
[12:29]	Gaia Clary 	ah, that sounds like a "maybe/one day" project :)
[12:29]	Nyx Linden 	There are a number of features and enhancements that would make the support for mesh avatars more complete, this is likely one to consider.
[12:29]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan) 	Couldnt be more easy to just extend the numbers of bones adding some more as morphs? Like normal skeleton and advanced one wich allow us to rig to a bigger number of bones for use with all the sliders (or at least some more of them)
[12:30]	Nyx Linden 	alright can we keep going?
[12:30]	Motor Loon 	yep
[12:30]	Gaia Clary 	yes
[12:30]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "Did the road bump problem solved? I covered the seam of road by normal prim but my car bumps. Yuzuru Jewell 12:06, 25 June 2012 (PDT)"
[12:30]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Yes.
[12:30]	Nyx Linden 	thanks for your patience on this one Yuzuru!
[12:30]	Motor Loon 	seamjumping is really an oooooold oooold problem
[12:31]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	I think it needs the change of Havok settings.
[12:31]	Motor Loon 	o:o greifer in the horizon
[12:31]	Nyx Linden 	Unfortunately I think that was my last suggestion until we can get a way to specify that the two pieces of road should be "merged" with respect to the physics mesh.
[12:31]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	fun times ahead, moto :D
[12:31]	DrFran Babcock 	/me dones hard hat
[12:31]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Oh Thats good
[12:31]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	I have an opinion here too, dropping collisions like Prim do makes prims very permable even when they shouldn't. I would vote for another solution for prims and Mesh alike.
[12:32]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	But they can't link because it was too big.
[12:32]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Nyx, will the pathfinding change in Havok version help?
[12:32]	Nyx Linden 	alternatively with the pathfinding beta, you might have more ability to integrate the physics shape of the road into the terrain
[12:32]	Motor Loon 	gawd famn fucking greifers... The NVIDIA OpenGL driver lost connection with the display driver due to exceeding the Windows Time-Out limit and is unable to continue.
[12:32]	Nyx Linden 	it might help if your roads are at ground level, or if the physics mesh is able to merge the pieces well
[12:33]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Maybe curving them down into each other?
[12:34]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	How about 2Level crossing?
[12:34]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Like SUZUKA?
[12:34]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan) 	or time to change from havoc to physX from nvidia
[12:34]	Nyx Linden 	I still think there are a few shapes at the end of the road segments (aside from flat boxes) that might be able to help a bit
[12:34]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Yazurah, I should show you how I solved snagging on my Mesh ramp. Something similar might help you?
[12:35]	Nyx Linden 	either way the pathfinding beta should provide better tools for visualizing the physics shapes and what impact you're having.
[12:35]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	I want see the tool of PF beta.
[12:35]	Nyx Linden 	overpasses could be tricky for the region's physics mesh. I'll let our pathfinding team know that this is still an active requested issue.
[12:36]	Nyx Linden 	you can get the pathfinding beta viewer on our alternate viewers download page....sec
[12:36]	Nyx Linden 	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Alternate_Viewers#Pathfinding
[12:36]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	http://www.f1-stinger.com/f1-data/2012/gp/japan/circuit.php http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl=ja&biw=1244&bih=1270&tbm=isch&tbnid=6f6RmJK5z6EkfM:&imgrefurl=http://yuttari-taka1st.seesaa.net/article/117711643.html&docid=uvQzM7mRb65e-M&imgurl=http://yuttari-taka1st.up.seesaa.net/image/SANY0071.jpg&w=800&h=450&ei=QvjxT9f1H8_MmAXKrJHQDQ&zoom=1
[12:37]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	We want build like this.
[12:37]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	We want to build like this.
[12:37]	Nyx Linden 	yep, will run this by them and see what they have to say
[12:37]	Nyx Linden 	mind if we move on for now?
[12:37]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Thank you Nyx.
[12:38]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "Any new information on Redpoly's C-Bones method? Nalates Urriah 18:12, 25 June 2012 (PDT)"
[12:39]	Nyx Linden 	no update on that for today. We're aware of the method and it definitely does have some fairly major limitations, so I don't believe it is a fully general purpose solution, but we'll be looking into the results.
[12:39]	Gaia Clary 	do you mean the collision volume weighting or additional bone sets here ?
[12:40]	Gaia Clary 	as redPoly mentioned c-bones in connection with his "additional ideas for improvement" ...
[12:40]	Nyx Linden 	I believe the topic is referring to weighting against the collision volumes.
[12:40]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Please let Karl S. know. He seems to be waiting on a consensus, OZ is waiting on him, users are waiting Deformer 0.4 to campare to Redpoly's and all seems to have gone on hold. So, yours is likely the only on=going progress.
[12:40]	Nyx Linden 	the feature request suggested last week is a separate ask.
[12:41]	Usuki (usuki.tachikawa) 	i believe that's what nalates meant: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-29192
[12:41]	JIRA-helper 	[#VWR-29192] Clothing deformer based on scaling and moving of a new set of bones(cBones) linked to the avatar's default skeleton (mBones) - Second Life Bug Tracker
[12:41]	Gaia Clary 	I do not believe that the Collision volume metod is as good as the Mesh deformer could become ...
[12:41]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Yes, Nyx it is the collion bone weighting
[12:41]	Motor Loon 	- communication -
[12:41]	Motor Loon 	¬∞Õú¬∞
[12:41]	Nyx Linden 	ah right, "c-bones" ok
[12:42]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	The next deformer is supposed to consider normals.
[12:42]	Gaia Clary 	so can we count your previous remarkl on additional bones here too ? So we will not see c bones in the near future ... ?
[12:42]	Nyx Linden 	we have not had time to dig deeply into the idea, but it is an alternative to consider. I don't really have anything new to report this week on it.
[12:42]	Braydon Randt 	/me listens ..... with interest
[12:42]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	So, it may be a very good deformer. But until we see it, we can't know,.
[12:42]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Sounds like you can't have both moddable body and easy to fit clothing if both clothing and rigged Mesh body uses the same collision bones.
[12:43]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Though.
[12:43]	Gaia Clary 	i just think that the collision bones are not enough...
[12:43]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan) 	yeah, seems a good suggestion for me, at least in theory
[12:43]	Nyx Linden 	Gaia - we do not currently have a team implementing this feature, if that is what you are asking.
[12:43]	Gaia Clary 	they have limited use, but its not a full solution at the moment
[12:43]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan) 	yes
[12:43]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	/me nods.
[12:44]	Gaia Clary 	Nyx, yes, that was what i asked for :)
[12:44]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan) 	the idea still is very nice. but again we ended in adding more bones to be able to deform cloth and rigged stuff
[12:44]	Gaia Clary 	we have added the feature to our software by now.
[12:44]	Nyx Linden 	we have a rather large backlog of current and ongoing projects that take priority, and we don't have extra resources to pull off those projects at the moment (more on that later)
[12:45]	Nyx Linden 	moving on?
[12:45]	Gaia Clary 	yes
[12:45]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	yes
[12:45]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "Please update us with progress on texture upload issues as reported in VWR-29183 Gaia Clary 23:50, 25 June 2012 (PDT)"
[12:45]	JIRA-helper 	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-29183
[12:45]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan) 	3DOpifex, Im 3D max users. Interested in your idea. Send me some links please on IM
[12:45]	Gaia Clary 	just asking here because these jiras tend to get lost somehow :)
[12:46]	Nyx Linden 	hrm, listed as incomplete resolution, that might be why it is lost in the shuffle. I spoke with Runitai about it and it sounds like a valid bug.
[12:46]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan) 	mmm people already know that collada file cant have embeded media? at least not in 1.4.0 version
[12:47]	Nyx Linden 	/me adds himself as a watcher. Could you re-open it please Gaia?
[12:47]	Gaia Clary 	can we expect a fix ?
[12:47]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan) 	the only way to use textures with collada file is when they save the collada file with a reference to the external texture patch, when you do that, collada saves a folder called "textures" in the same folder than the dae file
[12:47]	Gaia Clary 	nyx, i cant reopen a jira...
[12:47]	Gaia Clary 	you can
[12:49]	Nyx Linden 	re-opened. It should go back to triage.
[12:49]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "Please update us with progress on upload issues with missing bones in SH-2047 Gaia Clary 23:50, 25 June 2012 (PDT)"
[12:50]	Nyx Linden 	hrm, that one appears to have been fixed and tested - you're saying it still reproduces with the attached assets?
[12:51]	Gaia Clary 	this issue has been broken since a year.
[12:51]	Gaia Clary 	ask anybody here who does mesh uploads.
[12:51]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	She's right about that
[12:51]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	I can atest to that...
[12:51]	Nyx Linden 	perhaps the fix has not been merged down yet. Let me look to see where the "fix" is at and get back to you.
[12:51]	Gaia Clary 	sure.
[12:52]	Gaia Clary 	just remind that about a year ago we had a time where it worked one day and not work the next day...
[12:52]	Gaia Clary 	and about after a month it stabilised to "not working"
[12:52]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	I'm mostly using the Deformer Project viewer for mesh uploads... It is probably an odd mix of fixes.
[12:52]	Nyx Linden 	ok, thanks for bringing it up :)
[12:52]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "Can we please have a "show avatar skeleton" like the "show collision skeleton"? That would be tremendously helpful for creating custom mesh characters and seeing how the skeleton is reacting to animations. Ideally there should be a "show attachment points" too. Gaia Clary 05:19, 2 July 2012 (PDT)"
[12:53]	Nyx Linden 	sounds useful, is there a feature request in JIRA for these yet?
[12:53]	Gaia Clary 	no
[12:53]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	should add them
[12:53]	Gaia Clary 	not from us i mean
[12:53]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	if they arent ther
[12:53]	Nyx Linden 	please create one for each if you cannot find one already filed then
[12:53]	Gaia Clary 	ok
[12:54]	Nyx Linden 	switching to super-fast topic mode to see how many we can get through this week, please excuse my brevity :)
[12:54]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "it's possible to move a bone in three different ways. (How do these interact with each other? Gaia Clary 05:19, 2 July 2012 (PDT) ):
[12:55]	Motor Loon 	Sure is a lot of "boners" today eh? ¬∞Õú¬∞
[12:55]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	boo
[12:55]	Gaia Clary 	i guess this is a questionn like "PLease give us documentation" ... :)
[12:55]	Nyx Linden 	the collada file can deform the basic shape/position of the bones in the skeleton, which are then deformed by the shape worn, and are moved around by the animations played on that skeleton
[12:55]	Quenemue Cyberstar 	docs are always nice to have
[12:55]	Gaia Clary 	in that sequence ?
[12:56]	Nyx Linden 	That is my impression of the sequence, but that is not my normal area of code, so I do not guarantee that.
[12:56]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan) 	unfortunately animations only rotates bones, dont move them
[12:57]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Isn't that actually fortunate? Otherwise deformers like Petites wouldn't work?
[12:57]	Aki Shichiroji 	i believe so, Gaia. This av uses joint offsets for instance.Moved joints are still affected by av shape... and any change in the joint offsets can cause issues with animation to become much more pronounced.
[12:57]	Nyx Linden 	I will run it by some more animation/skeleton focused lindens and ask them to work with our doc team to draw something up. What information specifically are you looking for and for what application?
[12:58]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Blender please!
[12:58]	Nyx Linden 	for what use I mean, what is the purpose of the documentation, and at what stage of the creation process would it help
[12:58]	Gaia Clary 	well, we work on a tool for animating and weighting sl custom meshes. it is just very frustrating to test hundresd of scenarios because we do not know how things are actually implemented.
[12:59]	Gaia Clary 	and we are going very deep
[12:59]	Quenemue Cyberstar 	so these office hours covers also application specific questions related to mesh creation?
[12:59]	Gaia Clary 	so we have checked on attachment points, collision volumes and standard bones, for animation and weigthing...
[12:59]	Nyx Linden 	we cover content creation questions Quenumue - mesh creation is a local favorite, but its not exclusive to mesh creation.
[13:00]	Nyx Linden 	hence wanting to see the actual bones and attachment point visualized, I see
[13:00]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	I want basic information for example api and file format.
[13:01]	Nyx Linden 	The interaction between the three is going to be fairly complex, but I believe the order I laid out is likely correct. The results you see will vary based on what deformers and animations, etc you use of course
[13:01]	Gaia Clary 	well i personally am working also on the blender collada exporter, so it just natural that i want to know everything :)
[13:01]	Braydon Randt 	of course
[13:01]	Nyx Linden 	I can show you the viewer's source code if you'd like! ;)
[13:01]	Motor Loon 	hehe
[13:02]	Gaia Clary 	lol, thats what blender developers told me also :)
[13:02]	Nyx Linden 	Seriously though I'll pass along the request
[13:02]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	OK I will do that.
[13:02]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan) 	Asides of being able to see the skeleton in world, could be nice to display also other info like parent offset in numbers
[13:02]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "With the attachment points and the volume deform bones the SL avatar has 77 bones that can be rigged and animated. What is the max number of animatable bones that a single mesh can contain? For that matter what are ALL the technical limitations of mesh in SL? Could these be listed somewhere ? Gaia Clary 05:19, 2 July 2012 (PDT)"
[13:03]	Nyx Linden 	considering we don't allow any custom bones, that would imply the answer is 77, yes? I can't say I've tried to rig something to every bone.
[13:03]	Gaia Clary 	/me wonders if weighting all 77 bones may cause lag ...
[13:03]	Gaia Clary 	so we have a test tool for that :)
[13:03]	Nyx Linden 	"lag" is relative :)
[13:04]	Nyx Linden 	it would likely lag someone's machine, but not someone else's
[13:04]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Lag is a blood relative
[13:04]	Gaia Clary 	well, i believe this is again more a question of how does everything interact... i believe we have to look at the sources indeed ...
[13:04]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Nal, that would make SLs relationship to it incestuous...
[13:05]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan) 	(ÔΩ°‚óï .-ÔΩ°)‚ô• pop
[13:05]	Quenemue Cyberstar 	you broke the silence
[13:05]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan) 	‚ù§ L‚úøL ‚ù§
[13:05]	Nyx Linden 	ok we're running low on time, any objection to pushing my topic up and saving the rest for next week?
[13:05]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	nope
[13:06]	Gaia Clary 	no objections
[13:06]	Motor Loon 	ok with me... I got a kid in the back screaming for dessert ¬∞Õú¬∞
[13:06]	Nyx Linden 	ok last topic for the week: "Baked textures and you! What our recent blog post means (http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Tools-and-Technology/Project-Shining-to-Improve-Avatar-and-Object-Streaming-Speeds/ba-p/1583465) Nyx Linden 11:22, 2 July 2012 (PDT)"
[13:06]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Yay
[13:06]	Motor Loon 	VERY interesting stuff
[13:06]	Braydon Randt 	/me looks up fast like
[13:06]	Nyx Linden 	Avatar textures! Baked and stored on our computers!
[13:06]	Motor Loon 	not so much first step... but that you're working so intense on it
[13:07]	Gaia Clary 	sounds desirable.
[13:07]	Nyx Linden 	just getting started on it, but it means I can start talking about what I've been working on
[13:07]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Nyx, yeah. What if you need a rebake though?
[13:07]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan) 	doesnt that impact in users performance?
[13:07]	Braydon Randt 	anything on the texture stack is desireable
[13:07]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	yeah, server side baking would be win
[13:07]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	i believe this will brake exsisting viewers though
[13:08]	Motor Loon 	Davido... if that works you wont need to rebake ¬∞Õú¬∞
[13:08]	Nyx Linden 	davido - then the server would rebake. You'd still do a local composite while editing clothing, but wouldn't need to upload the result.
[13:08]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan) 	oh, when you say "our" computers you mean LL ones? or users ones? lol
[13:08]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Would make user performance better I believe? If your own computer doesn't have to bake every avatar that comes into view.
[13:08]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	yes, server side baking, not client side
[13:08]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan) 	(ÔæâÔæüŒøÔæü)Ôæâ ÔΩµÔΩµÔΩµÔΩµÔΩ´ÔΩ´ÔΩ´ÔΩ´ÔΩ´ÔΩ´-
[13:08]	Nyx Linden 	I mean server side baking and storage :)
[13:08]	Vivian Pinelli 	hello all :)
[13:08]	Nyx Linden 	davido - you don't have to bake non-self avatars now, you only bake yourself.
[13:08]	Motor Loon 	"Linden lab opens new bakery in SF"
[13:08]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan) 	and I though that was already at server side lol
[13:08]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Nyx, so basically you make a local composite and baking is akin to rendering it.
[13:08]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	it probably wont impact performance much, but itll help a lot with bake fail issues where avatars wont load properly
[13:09]	Nyx Linden 	hopefully it will help with clouded, invisible, black, pink, and grey avatars
[13:09]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan) 	hey, hey, now maybe you can think in 1024x1024 texture bake? :3
[13:10]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Nyx, maybe it possibly helps with the graphics memory leaks? Hopefully?
[13:10]	Nyx Linden 	Generally speaking you shouldn't need more texture density.
[13:10]	Aki Shichiroji 	/me would rather not have to load 4x the textures if at all possible.
[13:10]	Nyx Linden 	I don't imagine it would have a huge impact on memory leaks, unless the leaks were in the texture readback code.
[13:10]	Gaia Clary 	so this is mostly done to avoid traffic ?
[13:10]	Motor Loon 	It for sure a very "shiny" project ... I much look forward to see the results of it
[13:11]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan) 	preference > graphics > texture quality for avatars 512x512 or 1024x1024. Everything fixed lol
[13:11]	Gaia Clary 	When can we expect it to go life ?
[13:11]	Nyx Linden 	its mostly done to improve the speed and reliability of resolving avatars.
[13:11]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	^
[13:12]	Nyx Linden 	the project is just getting started, its going to take a while.
[13:12]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Wait, do we bake locally and upload it every time as it is now?
[13:12]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	yes
[13:12]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan) 	I always though it was all server side aswell Davido
[13:12]	Nyx Linden 	currently, every time you change outfits, you generate your baked textures locally and send them to our servers.
[13:12]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	then the other avatars download the bake fromt he server
[13:12]	Nyx Linden 	there are some caching mechanisms to avoid redundant bakes, but they only go so far.
[13:12]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Why does it even have to do it more than once?
[13:13]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan) 	So we have been working as servers for LL all this time, for free!!
[13:13]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	When you save an outfit.
[13:13]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan) 	jk :p
[13:13]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan) 	so you now dont need download every layer of clothes and skin
[13:14]	Gaia Clary 	Nyx, the other point about caching...
[13:14]	Nyx Linden 	it is saved from login to login, and there are some other mechanisms in place, its a rather complicated system actually
[13:14]	Nyx Linden 	(currently)
[13:14]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	yeah
[13:14]	Gaia Clary 	when i make a machinima and i turn the camera around...
[13:14]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	simulator does cache it
[13:14]	Gaia Clary 	then today i get always ugly stuttering.
[13:14]	Gaia Clary 	will that be fixed with the enhanced cache ?
[13:14]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	but theres a lot of things that can go wrong on the client to cause issues
[13:15]	Nyx Linden 	Gaia, to clarify you're referring to the other project listed there the "Object caching & interest lists"
[13:15]	Gaia Clary 	its further down in the same document
[13:16]	Gaia Clary 	yesm exactly!
[13:16]	Gaia Clary 	what you say
[13:16]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	UDP textures are currently cached on the simulator, avatar baking is always done via UDP, therefor it gets cached
[13:16]	Nyx Linden 	there may still be stuttering if the objects behind you were taken out of active memory and need to be re-loaded from disc, but it should help avoid re-downloading the data if possible.
[13:17]	Gaia Clary 	so i would benefit from more memory then ...
[13:17]	Nyx Linden 	maybe, it depends on a number of factors as to if the objects are taken out of memory
[13:18]	Gaia Clary 	ok
[13:18]	Nyx Linden 	if you're actually running low on memory, you might get less stuttering with a RAM upgrade. If you're not, something else is going on.
[13:18]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	if LL accepts my recent commit to the viewer, 64bit windows systems will benifit from having up to 4GB free memory for the viewer to use
[13:18]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	linux and mac already allow up to 4GB for a 32bit app
[13:18]	Nyx Linden 	I assume Oz knows about your patch tankmaster?
[13:19]	Gaia Clary 	yes... please do that :)
[13:19]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	ya
[13:19]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	he does
[13:19]	Nyx Linden 	ok, any other questions on the baked texture topic?
[13:19]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	its open-140 i think?
[13:19]	JIRA-helper 	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-140
[13:20]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	ah open-142
[13:20]	JIRA-helper 	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-142
[13:20]	Nyx Linden 	ok, in that case have a great week everyone! Watch out for us Americans, we're prone to setting off a bunch of fireworks a couple of days from now ;)
[13:21]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	you to, nyx!
[13:21]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	boom boom day
[13:21]	Braydon Randt 	viva Britania :P
[13:21]	Gaia Clary 	thanks for patiently answering questions !!!
[13:21]	Quenemue Cyberstar 	:D
[13:21]	Typhaon Nishi 	cheers Nyx :)
[13:21]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Thank you Nyx!
[13:21]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Thank you, Nyx.
[13:21]	Aki Shichiroji 	Thanks for the meeting, Nyx
[13:21]	Nyx Linden 	I'll carry over the other topics to next week and try to get the transcript posted before I leave.
[13:21]	Quenemue Cyberstar 	yah thanks ¬∞Õú¬∞
[13:21]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan) 	next monday at same hour and place?
[13:21]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	yes
[13:21]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan) 	Okok..
[13:21]	Nyx Linden 	same time and place next week, yep!
[13:22]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Bye Nyx
[13:22]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan) 	„ÉæÔºàÔø£„ÉºÔø£ÔºâÔæâbye byeÔºÅ
[13:22]	Motor Loon 	tc
[13:22]	Gaia Clary 	bye
[13:22]	Quenemue Cyberstar 	bb
[13:22]	Vivian Pinelli 	¬∞Õú¬∞
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