Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.04.02

Simulator_User_Group
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== List of Speakers ==
Chieron Tenk 	Inara Pey 	JayR Cela
Kallista Destiny	Kelly Linden 	Kennylex Luckless
Kitto Flora 	Lares Carter 	Liisa Runo
Lucia Nightfire 	Martinrj Fayray	Motor Loon
Nalates Urriah 	Qie Niangao 	Rohacan Hirons
Simon Linden 	Sylvie Etoile 	Tankmaster Finesmith
Techwolf Lupindo	Yuzuru Jewell 	
== Transcript ==
[12:01] Simon Linden: Hi everyone, let's get rolling ...
[12:01] Simon Linden: For server news, we had updates for the main channel as described in the forums : http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2013-04-01/td-p/1954059
[12:01] Simon Linden: The interest list code was promoted from Magnum to the main channel
[12:02] Motor Loon: I'm back, you may start now (including stopping holding your breath etc) ,-)
[12:02] Simon Linden: Tomorrow the RCs will be updated. BlueSTeel and LeTigre will have the same maintenance fixes, plus the interest list code
[12:03] Simon Linden: Magnum gets a new bit of code with some of the http work
[12:03] Simon Linden: I think there's some final testing going on today so things might change at the last minute, but that's the plan
[12:03] Simon Linden: Next news is that Andrew is on vacation so won't be here today
[12:04] Simon Linden: ... and that about wraps it up for me.
[12:04] Rohacan Hirons: Damned, my Hero on vacation lol
[12:04] Kennylex Luckless: Blame that :)
[12:04] Simon Linden: He deserves more of them :)
[12:05] Sylvie Etoile: Anything being looked at to give us more tools to help deal with griefing Simon?
[12:05] Simon Linden: So the invisible table is open for topics or questions
[12:05] JayR Cela: I have a ? please....
[12:05] Lares Carter: I got a topic.
[12:05] Simon Linden: ok, one at a time ...
[12:05] Sylvie Etoile: Well that's mine lol
[12:05] JayR Cela: and a topic as well
[12:05] Kitto Flora: Yes - Griefing ... has the Grey Goo Fence been abandoned?
[12:05] Kelly Linden: it has not
[12:05] Simon Linden: Nothing new to report about griefing tools, Sylvie, but it is on our radar and definitely a concern
[12:06] Sylvie Etoile: We need better land tools Simon please
[12:06] Kitto Flora: Griefers seem to be able to get around it - to crash a sim - The GG fence
[12:06] JayR Cela: why is CHUI taking p residence over server side backing?........
[12:06] Simon Linden: I think I mentioned the particle stuff in the viewer pipeline, and I hope we can get a project viewer for people to check out soon
[12:06] Lucia Nightfire: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SEC-1247 <--griefers are using this insteead of scripted rezzing
[12:06] JayR Cela: and what's the hold up with SSB ?
[12:06] Sylvie Etoile: That's a step Simon sure
[12:07] Techwolf Lupindo: Waiting on the manafuctures to ship the ovens to LL.
[12:07] Simon Linden: I realize there are more things to do
[12:07] Techwolf Lupindo: :-)
[12:07] Motor Loon: ha tech!
[12:07] Lucia Nightfire: which gets around the grey goo fence
[12:07] Liisa Runo: SCR-19
[12:07] Kennylex Luckless: Now I can see how many object a user have, but not where it is nor the separate objects in Land tools.
[12:07] Simon Linden: I'll take a look at that later, Lucy, thanks
[12:07] Kitto Flora: Permission Violation - JIRA has been broken for weeks
[12:07] Liisa Runo pokes the jira helper
[12:08] Liisa Runo: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SCR-19
[12:08] Lucia Nightfire: appreciate it much, Simon
[12:08] Sylvie Etoile: I still would like you to pursie
[12:08] Simon Linden: Yes Kenny, listing 15000 objects isn't going to make the viewer happy. I think most of that info is in the viewer, however, so some hacking might get you more data
[12:09] Sylvie Etoile: *pursue BUG-2012 which turned out to duplicate BUG-1940 - Feature Request: It should be possible to prevent particles crossing parcel borders in the same way that one can disable Object Entry or Build., Simon
[12:09] Kennylex Luckless: No, but if I select a user that has 40 object it only need to list them and not 15 000 objects.
[12:09] Simon Linden: On the viewer, the current chat-ui beta is looking solid and I think will wrap up soon
[12:09] JayR Cela: so my ? is not answered / why is CHUI the add on to client taking a presidence over server side baking ?
[12:09] Techwolf Lupindo: One can use Firestorm area search with a user name filter to find all the objects own by the one user.
[12:10] Simon Linden: I believe the SSB stuff is next in line, but the viewer meeting is the place to get the real schedule
[12:10] Kennylex Luckless: Now I has to fly around and seek for single objects or return all for a user.
[12:10] Nalates Urriah: According to OZ, you are right Simon.
[12:10] JayR Cela: none of the TPV's can do much of anyrhing untill all the SSB issue's are ironed out
[12:12] Simon Linden: Yes ... there's a tight loop there where we need to get the server side established, the viewer available, some real-world usage and finally make it run smoothly, which can involved fixing any of those components depending on what we find
[12:12] Simon Linden: Add to that the fact that a fix has to go into Linden's viewer and out to other viewers, you can see it's a pretty complicated dance
[12:12] JayR Cela: @Simon L / well then let's get the ball rolling ?
[12:13] Simon Linden: I mean a theoretical fix in the future, not a specific problem there
[12:13] JayR Cela: ya gotta get some folks involved
[12:13] Simon Linden: It is rolling, but the CHUI ball has to go out first
[12:13] Inara Pey: People are involved, JayR
[12:14] Nalates Urriah: JayR, Why do you think the ball is not rolling and people are not involved?
[12:14] Simon Linden: it's going to happen, but with all that going on, it's not going to be lighting fast
[12:14] JayR Cela: CHUI / please excuse my feelings here is a waste of time in comparision to SSB.....
[12:14] JayR Cela: FireStorm has had its own version of CHUI since January or December
[12:15] Qie Niangao: Meh. it's all just killing time until Materials is ready.
[12:15] Nalates Urriah: Good on Qie
[12:15] Motor Loon: it's not one thing or the other jay.... LL can multitask °?°
[12:15] JayR Cela: LL is still screwing around with it / / then announces SSB will be coming and all the TPV dev's are left hold ing the bag untill the Lab get's it's act together
[12:17] Inara Pey: They're separate projects progressing on parallel track, JayR.
[12:17] Inara Pey: tracks*
[12:17] Inara Pey: The only "delay" per se, has occurred this week with CHUI spending a little extra time in the beta viewer channel.
[12:18] Simon Linden: Getting viewer code out is not easy - nor servers either. We all do what we can
[12:18] Motor Loon: Patience is a virtue °?°
[12:18] JayR Cela: @Motor and Inara with all with all due respect to everyone / have you ever considered doing one thing at a time ?
[12:18] Lucia Nightfire: oh yeah, what was changed that required a mandatory upgrade of teh prior beta viewer, heh
[12:19] Lucia Nightfire: prior version was only 8 days old
[12:19] Motor Loon: I only do one thing at the time myself... but then again... I'm just one guy... pretty sure LL has more than 1 person working there
[12:19] Simon Linden: I don't know what was in that last beta update, Lucy, but I think all the betas end up being mandatory updates from the previous version. There's little point in having people run old beta versions and hitting bugs there
[12:20] Nalates Urriah: If the Lab did things sequentially like CHUI, SSA, HTTP, etc we would have people like you companing. So, they have a team on CHUI, another on SSA, and antoerh on HTTP...
[12:20] Inara Pey: ^This
[12:20] Lucia Nightfire: I guess I haven't seen a forced upgrade message in forever
[12:20] Qie Niangao: (The new beta *does* seem a little less cantankerous about Inventory search.)
[12:21] Simon Linden: yes - there are different projects in the work in parallel. The viewer release process, however, is a sequence because glomming lots of code together in one package often breaks it, so we try to pick the right-size bites each time
[12:21] Simon Linden: *in the works
[12:22] Simon Linden: There was a flurry of topics and questions at the start ... if anyone has things still, please bring them up
[12:23] Lares Carter: I got a topic: BUG-2147
[12:23] Simon Linden looks...
[12:24] Lares Carter: The physics shape type for mesh objects gets changed from Prim to Convex and doesn't change back until the object is right-clicked.
[12:24] Lares Carter: This only happens for linksets that contain a prim with a target omega property.
[12:25] Lares Carter: Things that can trigger the change: movement changes and rezzing the object. There also seem to be other factors as it can happen for static objects too.
[12:25] Simon Linden: hmm, right-clicking tends to get an update, so this sounds like an update issue
[12:25] Simon Linden: Have you tried that on a Magnum region, or one that got updated this morning?
[12:25] Motor Loon: but an "update" to the server?
[12:26] Lares Carter: I tried forcing an update via LSL, but the only way to fix it seems to be a right-click.
[12:26] Simon Linden: there's an exchange of messages when you select something
[12:27] Lares Carter: I haven't tried on Magnum, but can do. Also this is not a bug that recently popped up. It's possibly in there since the release of Mesh.
[12:27] Qie Niangao: This part is interesting: "analyzing the physics model in the mesh uploader fixes the bahvior"
[12:27] Simon Linden: I've noticed update problems recently where stuff, often larger objects like a floor, seem to be missing but I can get them to draw by right-clicking where they are
[12:28] Sylvie Etoile: That's been happening for ages, Simon
[12:28] Motor Loon: but thats more of a visual thing simon right? you can actually still walk on the floor despite not seeing it
[12:28] Lares Carter: But physics are handled server-side and the right click forces the change of the server-side. It's nothing that the viewer itself can change?
[12:28] Simon Linden: That hasn't been sorted yet, Lares, so it will get some QA attention soon. We're short-staffed this week due to vacations and a new baby, but I think by next week it should get a look
[12:28] Lares Carter: Yes, what Motor said.
[12:28] Sylvie Etoile: Yes true, Motor, you can
[12:28] Motor Loon: this is opposite... we see the items and can collide with them - but the physics shapes are wrong, until we rightclick our object.
[12:29] Lares Carter: Thanks, Simon. I can send you a copy of the test object if you want.
[12:29] Simon Linden: hmm, ok
[12:29] Simon Linden: Maestro is likely to get in touch for an object, Lares, but you have a good description and steps there so he'll be able to dig into it
[12:30] Lares Carter: Alright. :)
[12:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[12:31] Sylvie Etoile: Can I ask, Simon, what are your priorities in dealing with griefing please?
[12:32] Tankmaster Finesmith: the lindens here dont deal directly with the griffers themselves
[12:32] Kitto Flora: Does anylinden deal with griefers?
[12:32] Sylvie Etoile: I'm not asking that, just what the priorities are in improving the system
[12:32] Simon Linden: Hmm, I expect I might be answering this differently than you want, but when looking at griefing problems the most serious issues and the ones that get the fastest attention is anything that can crash a region or viewer
[12:33] Kitto Flora laughs
[12:33] Tankmaster Finesmith: the governance team deals with the individuals
[12:33] Kitto Flora: Wengens been griefed for a year now - still crashes 2 to 4 times a day
[12:33] Simon Linden: After that there's a broad spectrum mostly based on the level of pain and if there are things that can or can't be done about it already
[12:33] Kennylex Luckless: I think it is hard to stop griefers, best LL can do is make it harder for griefers, like thay has to go through the welcome island and do things.
[12:34] Simon Linden: The fight has been going on since long before I joined the Lab
[12:34] Sylvie Etoile: How do you assess the level of pain Simon then lol?
[12:34] Kennylex Luckless: If it take 5 to 6 min to get an Alt it will be harder work for griefers to create accounts then ban them.
[12:34] Kitto Flora: The fight started in 1990. FOr sione systems it ended in 1991
[12:34] Simon Linden: The Lindens that come here like Andrew, Kelly and myself are server developers, so we focus on features there that can help
[12:34] Kennylex Luckless: The remove images griefer use, let them upload things again.
[12:35] Simon Linden: Dealing with accounts is outside our area and the Governance people handle that.
[12:35] Sylvie Etoile: That is what I'm interested in, Simon, how you decide what needs doing from your side
[12:35] Simon Linden: We do regularly meet and discuss what's going on ... everyone is aware of the recent increase in griefing
[12:36] Nalates Urriah: Also, remember some griefers work in teams and anticipate being banned. They prepare for it.
[12:36] Kitto Flora: Problem is that the Governance team hide. No meetings. No communication. Lindens at meetings like this are the only ones representing LL to the residents.
[12:36] Kennylex Luckless: I think you has do a good job on griefer side, it is far less grief now than it has been.
[12:37] Kitto Flora lauhs again.
[12:37] Kitto Flora: No, its getting worse.
[12:37] Sylvie Etoile: I'm trying to be practical, Simon, in how we might help you in terms of what your priorities are
[12:37] Simon Linden: It's gotten a lot worse recently. Not due to technical failures and it becoming easier, but from more griefers
[12:38] Sylvie Etoile: That's a useful fact in itself Simon
[12:38] Motor Loon: While I do think it would be nice with a gov.team weekly meeting - I'd seriously doubt it in any way make the "war on greifing" any better... probably the opposite... but atleast some residents would feel more "heard"
[12:39] Sylvie Etoile: I wonder why then there's more griefing lately
[12:39] Simon Linden: I believe that bug where objects could get stuck in limbo at the edge of a region, and was sometimes exploited by griefers, is fixed in the BlueSteel and LeTigre RC servers now
[12:40] Nalates Urriah: A regular meeting would probably waste more of thei Gov's time than it would be worth. But, an annual or semi-annual report or letter in the forum would be nice.
[12:40] Kennylex Luckless: For me it looks like it is one and same person that has causes grief latest time.
[12:40] Kitto Flora: Why more? Maybe more low-lifes out of work - nothing else to do but take out their frustrations on easy targets, like SL.
[12:40] Simon Linden: The people that come here aren't making the decisions on how those organizations work with customers, but I'll pass along what you're saying
[12:40] Sylvie Etoile: Yes Kenny, I agree, a lot comes from a few people
[12:42] Simon Linden: So we're in the process of plugging some object-return loopholes, and giving people better tools to turn off obnoxious particles
[12:42] Sylvie Etoile: Every little helps Simon
[12:43] Simon Linden: Are there features in SL you'd like to turn off on your region to make them more griefer-proof?
[12:43] Sylvie Etoile: Yes, particles lol
[12:43] Object: Hello, Avatar!
[12:44] Qie Niangao: On Mainland, it's generally features the neighbors don't turn on... like auto-return, especially.
[12:44] Sylvie Etoile: And separate avatars in other regions can see and hear into two separate options perhaps
[12:44] Techwolf Lupindo: While particles is a client side feature, the sim could filter out the particial update packet from the object update msg.
[12:44] JayR Cela: oh that's good news Simon / but when ?......... will these tools be ready to use / and r they server or client tool's ?
[12:44] Simon Linden: I'm brainstorming here, so these are all just ideas bouncing around ... maybe turning off particles, or having them require a group permission?
[12:44] Motor Loon: I'd like to be able to ban indivuals of certain groups. I'd like to be able to serverside block object with a certain creator from being rezzed on my sims.
[12:45] Sylvie Etoile: A group option on particles would be great!
[12:45] JayR Cela: if client side / until SSB is completed on Server code the Client is stuck in the proverbial mudd:(
[12:45] Lucia Nightfire: heh, turn off public script operation over explicit banned/no access parcels, make return time for public rezzed objects over explicit banned/no access parcels 1 minute, lol
[12:45] Motor Loon: particles is a really small problem, as you can derender the emitter or turn down your viewers max. rendered particles amount.
[12:46] Simon Linden: Motor - so ban them based on their group membership? i.e, members of "Lol catz" can come into the region, or something like that?
[12:46] Motor Loon: yes
[12:46] Motor Loon: why shouldnt I have that right?
[12:46] Sylvie Etoile: No it's not Motor when you're running an event that gets griefed
[12:46] Simon Linden: Wouldn't that be super-simple to avoid, just leave the group and go in?
[12:46] Kennylex Luckless: Stuck object is bigger problem?
[12:46] Lucia Nightfire: yeah, it requires a bot to ban by group atm, secondary would be reactionary to whatever they rez whiel their tag is active, heh
[12:47] Kennylex Luckless: I has seen some in the Natoma 0,0 corner that not are visible from Minna.
[12:47] Lucia Nightfire: which is too late
[12:47] Motor Loon: I
[12:47] Sylvie Etoile: Restricting to the land group would be better
[12:47] Techwolf Lupindo: Group chat ban would be a much higher priority I would thing.
[12:48] Lucia Nightfire: yeah, Baker on vaction too? heh
[12:48] Qie Niangao: hmmm. actually, a bot shouldn't be able to ban by group unless the group is open or the membership is visible.
[12:48] Motor Loon: or the persons profile shows membership of it
[12:48] Motor Loon: - which is likely whats meant here
[12:48] Motor Loon: ofcourse you can just hide your groups
[12:48] Lucia Nightfire: bots can do more than you think in many areas, lol
[12:48] Simon Linden: Right Qie, group membership info is a privacy issue. It's not 100% universally available
[12:49] Qie Niangao: ah. well, that's easy to circumvent, too. but if a bot can see that info, it's a privacy concern anyway.
[12:49] Motor Loon: again, I dont need to know who's the member... I just want to be able to ban an entire group
[12:49] Motor Loon: no privacy issue with that
[12:50] Lucia Nightfire: atm, groups added to banlists won't stop rezzing from people in that group. It will stop rezzing from objects owned by that group though.
[12:50] Sylvie Etoile: Simon, my main concern is to be able to protect a large event that costs thousands of lindens
[12:50] Lucia Nightfire: unless the land owner is the same iirc
[12:50] Sylvie Etoile: And a lot of people that pay me rent
[12:50] Simon Linden: You can actually add groups to a ban list now?
[12:50] Motor Loon: there's no "banned groups" currently
[12:50] Motor Loon: only "allowed groups"
[12:51] Lucia Nightfire: you have for soem time
[12:51] Qie Niangao: ?!
[12:51] Lucia Nightfire: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-1719
[12:51] Lucia Nightfire: the viewer just doesn't fully support it, lol
[12:51] Simon Linden: oh cool :P
[12:51] Motor Loon: what is bug 1719 ?
[12:52] Lucia Nightfire: as I said, it doesn't do much though
[12:52] Lucia Nightfire: nto what you'd think or want , lol
[12:52] Motor Loon: Figured °?°
[12:52] Nalates Urriah: 1719: llAddToLandBanList() allows banning of groups, which is unsupported by the viewer
[12:52] Simon Linden: No, it wouldn't ... that list is expected to be individual's UUIDs, not groups
[12:53] Simon Linden: but you could throw in random UUIDs if you want
[12:53] Qie Niangao: *jaw drops* The sim actually checks group membership of visitors to see if they're a member of a *group* on that list? That would be a surprise.
[12:53] Motor Loon: well... I think it should be a feature though
[12:53] Simon Linden: No, Qie, it doesn't
[12:53] Simon Linden: That's the feature Motor wants
[12:53] Sylvie Etoile: ..... and griefers don;t tell me in advance what group they belong too lol
[12:53] Motor Loon: Not saying it'd solve all problems... but I just dont see why we dont have it...
[12:53] Motor Loon: and dont say "privacy" because thats just bull in this regard
[12:53] Motor Loon: °?°
[12:53] Simon Linden: It's relatively simple ... if your ID is on the list, you don't get access
[12:54] Chieron Tenk: too many database checks?
[12:54] Lucia Nightfire: no, the onyl thing adding a group to the banlist will do is affect objects deeded to that group, not set to it
[12:54] Lucia Nightfire: or members of that group
[12:55] Simon Linden: I think you are correct, Lucy, because then you would get a match on the owner ID with the list entry - both the group ID
[12:55] Lucia Nightfire: deeded griefing is extremely rare, most done with tx chat spammers and related
[12:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[12:55] Sylvie Etoile: Simon, if you asked us for a list of what we wanted, might it help you?
[12:55] Sylvie Etoile: Just a short list even?
[12:56] Simon Linden: I'll be distilling what's said today and mentioning it tomorrow in our team meeting
[12:56] Tankmaster Finesmith would like to ban certain viewers...
[12:56] Tankmaster Finesmith: er wait, scrathc that :P
[12:56] Simon Linden: but if you want to send me a notecard too that may help
[12:56] Rohacan Hirons: Just a quick and easy question, do you know if Andrew had some "free" time to think about avatar rotation by script ? :)
[12:56] Motor Loon: How about a new checkbox in the estatemenu, right under "Disable Physics" that said something like "Disable greifing"
[12:56] Sylvie Etoile: Thank you Simon!
[12:56] Lucia Nightfire: I'll send you a nc of a few dozen feature request jiras of mine, Simon, lol
[12:56] Simon Linden: Entering BUG jiras works too
[12:56] Simon Linden: really, it does :)
[12:56] Sylvie Etoile: Yes Motor perfect lol
[12:56] Motor Loon: °?°
[12:57] Lucia Nightfire: unless you just want to look at them all in your spare time, lol
[12:57] Qie Niangao: Tier bonus for land with auto-return set. That would help on Mainland.
[12:57] Qie Niangao: (eventually, hehehe)
[12:57] Motor Loon: Been a while since I cleaned up after a griefer in person, did the Object Return by Resident name "in every region of this estate" ever got fully fixed?
[12:57] Sylvie Etoile: I was just thinking of tools to help with griefing lol
[12:57] Simon Linden: I don't want to get the accountants involved, lol
[12:58] Qie Niangao: drat, foiled again.
[12:58] Sylvie Etoile: Simple practical stuff lol
[12:58] Motor Loon: See I dont mind greifers in my estate at all... aslong as 1. they can't crash the sim 2. I can clean up after them in max. 2 minutes
[12:58] Simon Linden: Simple practical stuff is the most likely to actually happen :)
[12:59] Lucia Nightfire: some griefers can crash your sim in less than a second Motor, heh
[12:59] Motor Loon: a few yeah
[12:59] Sylvie Etoile: Motor, a lot us live on mainland lol
[12:59] Motor Loon: mainland is another matter
[12:59] Kallista Destiny: Well LL is working on thee crashers, right?
[12:59] Sylvie Etoile: *of us
[12:59] Motor Loon: it's lawless land °?°
[12:59] Lucia Nightfire: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SEC-1028 is also still being used btw, Simon
[12:59] Simon Linden: Probably more, Kallista :)
[13:00] Kallista Destiny: the not three lol
[13:00] Sylvie Etoile: That's just what I'm trying to improve, Motor
[13:00] Lucia Nightfire: seems to be more potent again
[13:00] Motor Loon: crashmodes are usually a weekly fix eh... just seems there SOOO many of them
[13:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[13:00] Simon Linden: I'll check that one, Lucy
[13:00] Lucia Nightfire: I'm still waiting on SEC-1204 to be fixed, lol
[13:00] Tankmaster Finesmith: crash fixes are good ?
[13:01] Motor Loon: mabye it'd be FAIR if a resident with a mainland parcel could EXPECT that an AR filed on active greifing would be dealt with and cleaned up within 2 hours max by the G-team?
[13:01] Kallista Destiny: Thank you all. *waves*
[13:01] Qie Niangao: thanks Simon, Kelly, all... have fun!
[13:01] Simon Linden: There's no point in me talking about the G-team response time
[13:01] Nalates Urriah: bye
[13:02] Martinrj Fayray: goodbye lindens
[13:02] Simon Linden: We're out of time today- thanks everyone
[13:02] Yuzuru Jewell: Thank you, Lindens.
[13:02] Sylvie Etoile: Thank you for being very helpful and patient Simon and Kelly
[13:02] Lucia Nightfire: a Linden filing a AR for spam won't have it handled for at least 12 hours. Saw that the other day too, lol.
[13:02] Simon Linden: See you next time
[13:02] Tankmaster Finesmith: thx for your time and info, simon
[13:02] Lares Carter: Thanks for the meeting.
Simulator_User_Group
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