Social Networking Forum Transcript

* Jeska Linden: I’d like to talk about what Social Networking is and how we incorporate it into Second Life. Social Networking is any service that focuses on building online communities for people who share interests or have a social bond, and are curious about finding others. SL is by definition a social networking service, but missing industry standard tools present in other SN services. 
* Jeska Linden: We have a team at Linden who is focused on exploring and researching better ways to both work with other social networking software and incorporate social networking best practices into SL. I’d like to discuss what’s missing, what we wish SL had, etc.
* IntLibber Brautigan: Some more business oriented - group system is really limited for any sort of business operation - sales tab never displays anything whatsoever - difficult to have any sort of group-owned vendor that isn't easily broken; need a lot more detail in land sales (who bought land), detailed transaction history same as avatar has on SL website.
* arod Godel: if we had a web services api, we wouldn't need that data in-world
* Ina Hotshot: / like flickr
* Luis Aldrich: absolutely
* Ina Hotshot: / httprequest is web services api-esque
* IntLibber Brautigan: Could do with less groups if you had more roles - current limit is only 10; need more options - alliance navy, need a dozen different groups to manage their whole organization.
* Jeska Linden: you can have more than 10 roles
* IntLibber Brautigan: Not currently in a single group
* Jeska Linden: I’ve heard request for more groups, but they're being used for many different things. I’d like to talk about what is managed by group and what could be managed outside group
* IntLibber Brautigan: Different types of groups could have different capabilities based on need
* Jarod Godel: SL needs to focus on its core competence: 3d building
* Ina Hotshot: / different kinds of group, as proposed in the JIRA for groups would be helpful
* Allison Selene: different types of groups
* Fiona May: the ability to split a group and communicate to sections within that group would be great
* Jarod Godel: Let MySpace and Facebook handle groups
* Cezary Fish: Could we just have a specialized tools for developers (special groups included?)
* G2 Proto: we are saying that we are using the FBML and Facebook API to use as a datastore and messaging system
* Jarod Godel: yes, it could
* Jarod Godel: you don't
* Jeska Linden: Should we let others manage social network services? What about identity? When Flickr got bought by Yahoo it changed visibility of accounts. Does this apply to Second Life?
* IntLibber Brautigan: Those sites acquired other dotcoms and it was an imperfect marriage - all these different services, some work together and some don't. It's fragmented and impedes improvements in communication. Good thing about SL, is we're all here, should have as many tools in SL to handle things, rather than doing it on the internet.
* G2 Proto: agreed
* Fiona May: I agree
* G2 Proto: totally agree
* Fiona May: so true
* Robbie Kiama: Don't you want to let 3d parties do that?
* Jarod Godel: SL can’t do everything Where's my SL spread sheet?
* Fiona May: I agree Jarod but
* Robbie Kiama: Because there will be many companies trying to do social networking in Second Life
* Jeska Linden: I think it’s a combination of both - open up systems and have people build around that data; bootstrap and provide some of those tools so everyone is on the same page.
* Jarod Godel: No. SL needs to be an open system we can build on, not an island unto itself
* Fiona May: We need to embrace the environment and allow people to operate within the environment they are comfortable
* Robbie Kiama: Why would you compete with them?
* G2 Proto: it needs both
* Allison Selene: yes
* Kim Anubis: Anything that reduces the ability of SL residents to remain anonymous is going to be a problem.
* Fiona May: why push people to multiple environments if they are not comfortable with it
* G2 Proto: a combination of the 2
* Jarod Godel: Where's your 3D database?
* Fiona May: I hate having so many apps
* Ina Hotshot: 3d db? o.O
* Ina Hotshot: Yes, have you seen croquet?
* Jarod Godel: SL uses the same database system that the web does: mysql
* IntLibber Brautigan: If we could display a spreadsheet on a prim that would be great; current capabilities are limited. Web on a prim would go a long way to being able to use web resources.
* Jeska Linden: media on a HUD good idea (G2); project to do media on a prim as well.
* Jarod Godel: there is no difference in the 2D web and the 3D vr aside from how we view data
* G2 Proto: Why on a prim? in the client /HUD would be great for a browser at first. Then move to a prim
* Jarod Godel: if the 2d web can do something, like identity, why does SL need to reinvent the wheel for "virtual reality"?
* Jarod Godel: you guys have a HUD browser, its how Help works
* Luis Aldrich: Browser on a prim will derive in a lot of new services
* Peter13 Peterman: I think a lot of companies do like that option. It makes SL much more attractive for them
* G2 Proto: Expand the firefox HUD browser
* Jarod Godel: (pardon my typos, I don't have a mic and am trying to keep up)
* Luis Aldrich: HUD browser? Please where?
* Allison Selene: A prim would make it usable on our parcels
* Jeska Linden: What else would you use media or browsing on a prim, what would go well with that?
* IntLibber Brautigan: Web on a prim allows a vendor to have a direct link to a website selling SL products
* Jarod Godel: You guys need to allow us LSL access to the browser
* G2 Proto: Ajax sliders on a prim
* Ina Hotshot: lol..
* Jeska Linden: nice
* Jarod Godel: flickr streams, video
* Allison Selene: flash, ajax
* Luis Aldrich: browser on a prim will permit, for example, integrate collaboration tools like Google Docs...
* Fiona May: Flash would be perfect
* Jarod Godel: But a shopping web site works just as well...In an embedded browser as "on a prim", and an embedded browser allows privacy
* Vladimir Petrichor: A lot would depend on whether we could use forms/buttons/etc., or just show the displays
* Jarod Godel: Are we supposed to enter credit card numbers on a prim?
* G2 Proto: Prim based ID theft?
* Vladimir Petrichor: Yeah...that would work out well Jarod. ; )
* Jarod Godel: That's what "web on a prim" lends itself to
* G2 Proto: Agreed we need to limit web on a prim to snippets, not whole pages
* Jarod Godel: as opposed to "embedded browser" which is both in-world and private
* Ina Hotshot: SL is a massive multi-user online world; sims are limited to 40 avatars before they get totally laggy; massive you think hundreds, but an event can only host 20-30 avatars, which limits events. Recently acquired 4 sims for live stage of a troupe; problems with avatars crossing sim boundaries. But the basic functionality and premise is being able to sustain more than 20 or 30 people at an event.
* IntLibber Brautigan: What are you doing to incorporate OpenSIm, I hear they've had more than 140 people on a sim?
* Jeska Linden: We've looked at it. Dazzle, WindLight and improvements to our rendering pipeline are reducing the computation from more distant avatars to improve performance. There will be more projects like this in the future
* Vladimir Petrichor: Haven't tried it myself, but rumor has it Dazzle made some of those sim crossings better
* Leah Salome: I agree
* Cezary Fish: 50 is optimal in most cases :)
* Vladimir Petrichor: 114 and it was still stable, or just 114? That’s a big difference.
* G2 Proto: And OpenSIm, while I love it, has not got the graphics or physics engine SL does
* IntLibber Brautigan: Rezzing inside a building, everything far away rezzes, then something right in front of you - if you could render nearby stuff first, it would save a lot of rez time and reduce lag. 
* Jeska Linden: We’ve done some work on occlusion culling as well.
* Vladimir Petrichor: Yeah, rezzing from close to far instead of the other way around would work better for tp'ing in, I imagine.
* Cezary Fish: and waste nearly as much on calculating :)
* Ina Hotshot: Sim crossings - when sims joined, when avatars cross, really strange things occur, really serious bug, crashing on cross, etc.
* IntLibber Brautigan: Agree with Ina completely; easy solution - she should be able to get the 4 sims on the same server which would reduce transition problems.
* Count Bayliss: Sim crossing is a known issue the SL is not going to address right now
* Fiona May: and can you do that for one off events
* Jeska Linden: I don't want to get bogged down in technical -others working on that; segue - Events Calendar. How do you use it, what would improve...
* Ina Hotshot: Google calendar integration - cross platform & universal
* IntLibber Brautigan: Checkbox on notice form to add to calendar from Group Events notice
* G2 Proto: better XMLRPC performance would help
* Jarod Godel: Zero's office hours at 1:00pm is a good place to discuss technical issues
* Jarod Godel: an api
* Allison Selene: a calendar
* Robbie Kiama: Jeska- try putting your mic a bit further from your mouth, sometimes it is overloaded
* G2 Proto: we have developed a 3D calendar in conjunction with www.telerik.com that synchs with a website SQL database
* Jarod Godel: does anyone even use the SL calendar any more?
* Allison Selene: also let people choose to have a self reminder sent
* G2 Proto: it runs of XMLRPC and soon will talk with Facebook too
* Jarod Godel: I just use the wiki
* Kim Anubis: I use it, Jarod
* Ina Hotshot: vote for my jira on sims :-X http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1667
* Jeska Linden: we push the current calendar out to Eventful.
* Fiona May: a self reminder would be a good function
* Jarod Godel: what about RSS?
* Ina: RSS feed directly would be helpful - Eventful RSS feeds are missing important information about the SL events, since they support different fields
* Fiona May: A self reminder would be a good function
* Jarod Godel: What about RSS? With RSS you could filter events
* Allison Selene: let people set self reminders
* Kim Anubis: I'd like to see a feature where you could list keywords and if an event with that tag is coming up your avatar receives an automatic notification.
* Ina Hotshot: / + RSS
* Jeska Linden: Has anyone used the Notify Me button on the Events?
* Ina Hotshot: Very helpful to get the reminders so I don't miss events
* Jeska Linden: Almost never used; we're tracking use and few people use it.
* Jarod Godel: I have not
* Kim Anubis: No
* Fiona May: ummmmm no
* Peter13 Peterman: nope
* Ina Hotshot: / I use it a few times. I think no one... knows about it LOL
* Leah Salome: nope
* Jarod Godel: I think RSS would work better
* G2 Proto: Never used the calendar
* Fiona May: I agree
* Allison Selene: Can we have that with group notices of events?
* Jarod Godel: then you could build a desktop widget to track events
* Jeska Linden: SLURLS. What's missing, what would make them better?
* IntLibber Brautigan: If Landmark and SLURL were same, so could store in inventory and drag in to chat - usually just create it as link. Haven't used clipboard SLURL - new button on bottom of the map (feels like the wrong place).
* Jarod Godel: an In-browser SL client
* G2 Proto: me too, that’s what I use
* Allison Selene: yes
* Leah Salome: that’s what I use
* G2 Proto: it’s great I use it a lot
* Jeska Linden: I <3 it Vladimir Petrichor: In general, I would say I don't use many features that I have to leave SL/open a web browser to access.
* Jarod Godel: when no one uses the client's features, it's a big hint you should not bother adding features to the client
* Jarod Godel: expose these features to developers, let us make specialized widgets for this stuff
* G2 Proto: great point
* IntLibber Brautigan: From early days of internet when sites got no traffic - because URLs were really long; when they put domain names in the ads. IF ability to point domain name at a sim, that would drive traffic from website directly to sim.
* Jeska Linden: Maybe a "TinySLurl"
* G2 Proto: agreed Jeska
* Jeska Linden: http://slurl.com/REGIONNAME for example
* Jarod Godel: I don't mean to harp on the API, but SL's going to live or die by integration
* Ina Hotshot: http://slurl.com/secondlife/regionaname
* Luis Aldrich: 404: File Not Found
* Jeska Linden: / Jarod - for sure
* Luis Aldrich: ok thanks
* Jeska Linden: We’re also looking at maintaining SLURL through registration - if you're new, today when you click Register Me, you use the SLURL.
* IntLibber Brautigan: SLurl should be a background thing like a domain name server that people can register with LL; if they enter a URL it would bring up map so they could teleport directly - make it easier to get customers to get to these places.
* PM Sands: Makes sense to me; something MySpace has - know how to find you as MySpace/name. Jeska, social network, searchable in first life tab that you can put localization for searchable zip code. MySpace also has music- can customize song on profile.
* Jarod Godel: and with no API, there's no way to integrate it into anything
* Ina Hotshot: the mod_url is set to /secondlife/
* Ina Hotshot: / music!
* Jarod Godel: But this is Virtual Reality! Why are you trying to use 2D web metaphors?! Oh, right: because they work.
* Ina Hotshot: lol..
* Jeska Linden: Anything else about SLurls?
* IntLibber Brautigan: Issues with Group Permissions. If I have objects deeded to the group and someone is in Everyone Role and View Admin options, they can screw up group objects - lets people vandalize, especially in open join groups. Also shouldn’t be able to post after removed; also be able to BAN people from group for open join groups to prevent griefing through the group.
* PM Sands: Amen
* Vladimir Petrichor: Something I mentioned on the JIRA a while ago, that is a small but perhaps handy feature, would be the ability to break my Contacts list into different subfolders. I'd like to be able to separate the countless numbers of people who want to be friends, from the people I want to tag as business associates/contacts.
* Luis Aldrich: great idea
* Jeska Linden: Another topic - working with a mobile phone to provide a way to connect to SL from your mobile. Is this interesting to you? Will you use it?
* PM Sands: If basic email functionality was in place, everyone could tap into it already.
* Jeska Linden: The current one lets you log in and interact with your phone
* IntLibber Brautigan: Emailing is difficult to protect us all from span; there are ways to make email possible without being buried in spam
* Leah Salome: good idea
* Allison Selene: vollee?
* Luis Aldrich: And what about managing lists of contacts connections, a la LinkedIn
* Jarod Godel: Like what? Chat? inventory?
* PM Sands: I see
* Jarod Godel: bah
* Jarod Godel: SL hasn't fixed spam, they just broke a tool
* IntLibber Brautigan: It's a feature, Jarod!
* Jeska Linden: http://www.vollee.com/secondlife
* Kim Anubis: / can't we put our "friends" cards into different folders already?
* IntLibber Brautigan: Great idea
* Jeska Linden: Kim, yes you can do that and create ad-hoc groups that way
* IntLibber Brautigan: I've got at least 400 people in my friends list - a way to categorize people within the Friends list; in Yahoo IM, can create folders and have each contact show up within the folder; do something similar so your friends would be in folders and you could see which folder they were in.
* Jarod Godel: Facebook?
* Count Bayliss: Good Idea
* G2 Proto: Simply improve XMLRPC stability, speed and data amount and we can do a lot more with that
* Ina Hotshot: The way Yahoo does it totally makes sense.
* Ina Hotshot: SL voice is very prone to crashing and pretty low quality. Skype sounds better and doesn't crash as often.
* Count Bayliss: Even just like the inventory
* Jarod Godel: isn't that what the notecard folder is for?
* Allison Selene: yes, +1 on xmlrpc
* Vladimir Petrichor: Exactly what was saying. Even folders for contacts would be handy. Nothing fancy, just something we can name/rearrange
* G2 Proto: woot
* Digo Hynes: I think voice is great here
* Leah Salome: SL voice is clearer for me than skype
* Cezary Fish: never happened 2 me
* Digo Hynes: better from skype some times
* G2 Proto: me either
* Vladimir Petrichor: I hear people clearer on Skype...never heard myself though, so I can't say how I come through
* G2 Proto: SL voice is bad but ill try killing skype
* Robbie Kiama: yeah I actually like SL voice better than skype :D
* Kim Anubis: / unfortunately, Skype is more reliable for me
* Cezary Fish: It all depends on the system config...
* Ina Hotshot: / yes skype is far more reliable..
* Jarod Godel: when can we export our friends?
* Cezary Fish: One more simple thing..... a friendlist.... perhaps a not used friends could be pointed out by the system for removal???? like not used icons in windows
* Cezary Fish: Let’s say we can decide after what period...month, 2, 3.....
* Glenn Linden: Or a flag for most recent contact, so you could sort by date and delete old ones - will add to the transcript.
* Jeska Linden: Sorting or maintaining friends. 
* IntLibber Brautigan: Like we can put notes on profile. Can we search through profiles to find profiles relative to that search.
* Peter13 Peterman: I just use call cards
* Digo Hynes: prefers notes
* Alice Klinger: I rather type ;-P
* Jarod Godel: and use them with Open Social?
* Allison Selene: friends IM conferences actually working would be nice
* Leah Salome: In group lists, if you join a group, if a box came up that said, similar groups you might be interested in.. that might be a good idea
* Vladimir Petrichor: Quit calling it Friend...not sure about anyone else but I see it as a horribly loaded term
* Alice Klinger: and group IMs working would be nice too LOL
* Kim Anubis: / I agree, Vladimir
* Jarod Godel: I don't.
* Alice Klinger: And notices being seen from everywhere, not just a few sim...
* Jeska Linden: How are you using profiles? What's missing? Easier to find since new search searches profiles? More tabs since you can search, what would help?
* Vladimir Petrichor: I’d pay to have background check to separate legitimate businesses from those who aren't - put a lot of personal information into my profile; would be nice to be able to prove I'm willing to be held accountable and I'm legitimate (an honest merchant badge). Nice if we could have some LL stamp of approval.
* Alice Klinger: and group IMs working would be nice too LOL
* Kim Anubis: / I agree, Vladimir
* Jarod Godel: I don't. Make it a web page
* Alice Klinger: and notices being seen from everywhere, not just a few sim...
* Count Bayliss: so many people never fill out profiles
* Jarod Godel: Viewable in the browser
* G2 Proto: Agree with Jarod
* Jarod Godel: Extensible via an api, then I can plug it into MySpace
* Leah Salome: it would help if the new search updated automatically
* Allison Selene: my website uses flash and the internal browser on my profile does not. so flash working on the browser
* Cezary Fish: social security numbers?
* G2 Proto: or improve XMLRPC performance and we can talk with anything anywhere
* Cezary Fish: barcodes?
* Kim Anubis: / I mostly check profiles when someone is talking to me and I can't remember who the heck they are
* Luis Aldrich: I need more about managing my contacts, I need other people can see my list of friends if I want to and my friends are agreeing
* PM Sands: LOL
* Jarod Godel: G2, well, llHTTPRequest is better than XML-RPC, since it can pull data in
* G2 Proto: but I need 2 way data
* Allison Selene: me too G2
* G2 Proto: I need my web apps to control the inworld systems mainly
* Peter13 Peterman: maybe there has to be an difference between companies and personals information
* Luis Aldrich: sure
* Peter13 Peterman: like an yellow guide
* G2 Proto: XMLRPC can pull data in too
* Jarod Godel: G2, wouldn't an XML-RPC in/llHTTPRequest out work?
* G2 Proto: yes that’s the mix we use now, because of the bad performance
* Robbie Kiama: it works that way Jarod, but performance is pretty bad..
* Jarod Godel: Maybe we need to say that we need to point domains to prims - so a prim can be prim.jarod.com
* Jarod Godel: I thought zero's message liberation was going to fix prims to do that, but it hasn't
* Vladimar: We have the better business bureau in RL, so you can at least check.
* IntLibber Brautigan: We do have an SL Better Business Bureau, and an SL Exchange commission, so we do have some resident run groups that do this in SL. Public interest seems to wax and wane, and there's competition between the groups. Either we as residents need to do it, or it will be done for us by a government that doesn't understand our culture.
* Jarod Godel: how did businesses get reputations when they first hit the web?
* Allison Selene: VWBB
* Jeska Linden: jarod - word of mouth? reputation sites?
* Jarod Godel: How did Anshe Chung gain a multi-world reputation?
* Digo Hynes: spam fight
* Jarod Godel: don't pretend it's an SL business, treat it like a real business
* Cezary Fish: by being a good example of SL abilities :)
* Jarod Godel: SL needs to stop "having a culture" and grow up.
* Jeska Linden: multi-culture? :)
* Jarod Godel: is there a better business bureau on Facebook? LiveJournal?
* Jarod Godel: No. They're real businesses
* Kim Anubis: / the thing is, Jarod, there are 2 kinds of businesses here in SL
* Ina: General question - any idea of the timeline for which any of these things will be implemented?
* Jeska Linden: We’re still in prioritization phase at the moment. Clearly some will take more time and some will take less; identity we've been working on for awhile and won’t happen soon. Organizing friends list we might be able to do fairly soon.
* Jeska Linden: Sign up for Facebook, do you want to tell all your friends, scrape your contact book and send emails to them. It’s opt in, but generates a lot of heat.
* Jeska Linden: Kim says she won't sign up for facebook because if it.
* G2 Proto: any comments on XMLRPC performance?
* Jarod Godel: not so long as the Lindens have real world value
* Kim Anubis: / there are developers doing RL business and then there are people with inworld businesses. Both are important.
* Jarod Godel: it's an invisible divide
* IntLibber Brautigan: Jarod, one reason why there is a unique culture here is purely economic, if you get scammed for 1000 L$, you sure aren't going to hire a RL lawyer and sue that person for three bucks
* Leah Salome: I have both and their both RL business really, if you ask the tax office
* Vladimir Petrichor: Exactly Leah. If I am paying taxes on both, then they are both real...as the only real things in life are death and taxes. : )
* Jarod Godel: IntLibber, then why get upset by 1000L$ at all?
* Kim Anubis: Which is why I won't sign up for it
* G2 Proto: Jeska any plans to upgrade XMLRPC? this seems to be a no-brainer for integration with other apps?
* IntLibber Brautigan: for some people in SL 1000 L$ is a whole lot of camping or some other activity
* Allison Selene: it seems it would be great for spammers
* Jarod Godel: no, it's $3
* IntLibber Brautigan: that’s arrogant
* Allison Selene: Jeska, the email scrape seems like it would invite spam
* G2 Proto: woot! yes please
* Leah Salome: I think voice has crashed
* Jarod Godel: I'm sorry if someone lost $3, but at that point we're worrying about the daily income of third-world countries
* Slideshow Screen: Slideshow screen is ON. To add images, hold CTRL while dragging the image onto the screen.
* G2 Proto: it would be a weak API replacement for now
* Vladimir Petrichor: Invite Spam....what is Spam like Vampires now?
* Jeska Linden: I’ll pass on your thoughts re: XMLRPC
* G2 Proto: thanks
* Ina Hotshot: LOL
* IntLibber Brautigan: There’s already a Facebook tool that looks for whether friends on Facebook are in SL
* Allison Selene: woot G2
* Vladimir Petrichor: I always thought the definition of spam was something to do with it being uninvited
* G2 Proto: woohoo my voice was heard!!!
* Robbie Kiama: :))
* G2 Proto: Allison we'll keep hammering away at it
* Jeska Linden: Jarod, it’s in QA
* IntLibber Brautigan: At SLCC I had a long talk with Sidewinder about groups. Would I give it to him or you?
* Jeska Linden: Both of us. Trying to separate the tools people are using groups for to separate them instead of having one tool trying to do everything. Thank you for coming.
* Jarod Godel: when will RegAPI 2.0 be done?
* Allison Selene: good job G2
* Jarod Godel: ok
* G2 Proto: FYI we have converted the RegAPI to aspx
* Jeska Linden: ;)
* Ina Hotshot: LOL!
* G2 Proto: I'll post it to the wiki
* Jarod Godel: G2, use WebClient. ;)
* G2 Proto: hmm ill look into that
* Jeska Linden: jeska@lindenlab.com
* G2 Proto: thanks Jeska
* Kim Anubis: Quick, send her a Facebook invitation ;)
* Count Bayliss: thanks