User Experience Interest Group/Transcripts/2010-02-18

== Topic ==
User Experience Interest Group Discussion for February 18, 2010.
Topic: Open Topic (Miscellaneous).
== Summary ==
No summary is yet available for this meeting. Please edit this page to add one.
== Transcript ==
[14:56]	Azwaldo Villota: 	hey hey
[14:56]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hi Azwaldo!
[15:00]	Azwaldo Villota: 	Jacek, have you met Omei Turnbull?
[15:00]	Azwaldo Villota: 	Omei, Jacek is our fearless leader in UXIG
[15:00]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I have not. Hello, Omei :)
[15:00]	Omei Turnbull: 	I don't think so. Hi, Omei.
[15:00]	Omei Turnbull: 	:-)
[15:01]	Omei Turnbull: 	I mean Hi, Jacek.
[15:01]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehe
[15:03]	Azwaldo Villota: 	Jacek, what would you say is the focus of the Imprudence viewer?
[15:03]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hi Armin :)
[15:03]	Azwaldo Villota: 	it is on my list, but i have only DL'd Snowglobe yesterday
[15:03]	Armin Weatherwax: 	hi :)
[15:03]	Azwaldo Villota: 	howdy Armin
[15:03]	Omei Turnbull: 	Hello, Armin.
[15:03]	Jacek Antonelli: 	The focus of Imprudence is on improving the user interface of the viewer, and the user experience in general.
[15:04]	Armin Weatherwax: 	sorry about the cigar, hope nobody has to cough
[15:04]	Jacek Antonelli: 	We have a manifesto we wrote when we started the project, to explain our goals and rationale: http://imprudenceviewer.org/wiki/Manifesto
[15:04]	Omei Turnbull: 	Do you have any idea how the Linden 2.0 viewer is going to affect you?
[15:05]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Not yet. We don't really know what the viewer will be like. Maybe people will love it, or maybe they will hate it. Maybe it will have useful new enhancements, or maybe it will be a bunch of shiny garbage.
[15:06]	Jacek Antonelli: 	We are hoping that of the people who don't like the new UI, at least some of them will try out Imprudence and like it.
[15:07]	Omei Turnbull: 	What is your motivation for putting effort into Imprudence?
[15:08]	Armin Weatherwax: 	have fun coding :)
[15:08]	Omei Turnbull: 	That's a good reason.
[15:09]	Armin Weatherwax: 	it was disappointing to contribute to LL - and seeing even 1line patches not going to anywhere
[15:12]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hi Robin
[15:12]	Robin Cornelius: 	Hello
[15:12]	Azwaldo Villota: 	howdy Robin
[15:12]	Armin Weatherwax: 	Hi Robin
[15:12]	Omei Turnbull: 	Yes, I know. I had a good rapport with Qarl re sculpties, but it became clear that even with Qarl's ear, it was difficult to have much influence on the Linden viewer.
[15:12]	Robin Cornelius: 	Jacek, seen the animation crash jiras i've been posting?, i think i sent you one in IRC?
[15:13]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I saw the one you sent me in IRC. Did you find more?
[15:13]	Robin Cornelius: 	2 more
[15:13]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Oh boy :D
[15:13]	Robin Cornelius: 	SNOW-488
[15:13]	Robin Cornelius: 	patched
[15:13]	Robin Cornelius: 	and SNOW-492 workng on
[15:14]	Robin Cornelius: 	The more viewers we can get patched the better and the less effective this type of greifing will become
[15:15]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yep. I'll be sure to have them patched in Imprudence
[15:17]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Anyone have a UX topic you want to discuss today?
[15:17]	Azwaldo Villota: 	I have just added this to the UXIG discussion page: Occasionally, I think of UI features that I think are worth mention in UXIG; but, even though I make notes, I forget about them when Thursday comes 'round. Is there a suitable place in the UXIG wiki pages for a "Notes" or "Wishlist" section?
[15:18]	Azwaldo Villota: 	and, will mention two items here...
[15:18]	Jacek Antonelli: 	You could add them to the topics page, or IM / email me
[15:19]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Or do you mean something else?
[15:19]	Azwaldo Villota: 	Topics page: OK, they are usually minor observations, like...
[15:20]	Armin Weatherwax: 	i liked to see use of messaging independent from the grid service provider - but i think it would be good to be prepared for that
[15:20]	Azwaldo Villota: 	Why isn't there a maximize button in the chat console? (I can minimize, but cannot make it full screen size; which would be useful when lots of text is scrolling.)
[15:20]	Armin Weatherwax: 	so maybe better sometime in future
[15:21]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Funny you should mention that. I don't think the viewer even has maximize buttons anywhere. *checks*
[15:22]	Robin Cornelius: 	ok SNOW-492 has a patch, amazed the jira police have not shouted these shouuld be SEC project, ;-) got to run
[15:23]	Armin Weatherwax: 	/saves the patch before the jira police does
[15:23]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehe
[15:24]	Azwaldo Villota: 	for instance at a live event, when the back chat is heavy...I often drag the resize handle wide, to catch up with all the chatter
[15:24]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yes, that's a good observation Azwaldo
[15:25]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I've scanned the source code just now, and I can give you something of an explanation. The viewer has not been programmed with any concept of "maximizing" a window inside the viewer
[15:26]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I can't say for sure why LL did not implement maximizing, but I assume that they didn't think it was needed at the time
[15:27]	Azwaldo Villota: 	hey hey Saijanai
[15:27]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hi Sai, welcome
[15:27]	Azwaldo Villota: 	Or why can't I bookmark/favorite an avatar? On the Internet, we surf around and mark the spots we want to come back to...if I want to have a look at Robin Cornelius' profile later...
[15:27]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	hi lo
[15:27]	Armin Weatherwax: 	hm. reading this i assume i was missing max buttons, too, and for a long time
[15:27]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	is this UGIX
[15:27]	Jacek Antonelli: 	UXIG, yes
[15:27]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	iknewthat
[15:27]	Armin Weatherwax: 	Hi Saijanai
[15:28]	Azwaldo Villota: 	hi Morgaine
[15:28]	Armin Weatherwax: 	Hi Morgaine
[15:28]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hi all :-)
[15:28]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hey Morgaine
[15:29]	Azwaldo Villota: 	little things like that do not strike me as "topical", but i can enter them there (topics page in UXIG wiki space)
[15:29]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Sorry to be late, we were talking about potentially making a new viewer, if LL is ignoring community (referring to the client-side scripting debacle in opensource-dev)
[15:29]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Who would create the new viewer, Morgaine?
[15:29]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	the biggest issue is that we don't know if it is being ignored or not
[15:29]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I assume not LL?
[15:29]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	realXtend is already creating such a viewer
[15:30]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I think it was empty talk, Jacek. Just a result of frustration with LL, methinks.
[15:30]	Armin Weatherwax: 	Morgaine consider making a new *server* which is gpl
[15:30]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yeah, I'm betting on Naali.
[15:30]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	opensim is bsd. I beieve realixtend is either bsd or mit
[15:31]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Sai: correct, on the "issue". LL are simply not talking. And Q's response might as well have been "We don't want to talk to anyone".
[15:31]	Armin Weatherwax: 	even though it has some upsides opensim devs do not know the client code it ist in general a bit ... er ... strange
[15:31]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	though, I'm not sure how far along their server project is. I know they're cooperating with OpenSim so possibly they aren't actively working on a separate server
[15:32]	Morgaine Dinova: 	It's not a separate server, it's based on Opensim.
[15:32]	Morgaine Dinova: 	http://wiki.realxtend.org/index.php/Getting_Started_with_Taiga#What_is_Taiga.3F
[15:33]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	OK wasnt sure. I know when they first started they were talking about their own from scratch server but then they aonnounced they were working with opensim
[15:33]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Opensim + modCB + modREX + CB + OpenID OP.
[15:35]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Is today open topic?
[15:35]	Armin Weatherwax: 	btw ... how do I best offer a TP to someone at foo-grid while I am in the bar-trix?
[15:35]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Morgaine: Yeah, open topic
[15:36]	Morgaine Dinova nods	Morgaine Dinova nods
[15:36]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Armin: I have no idea. Right now, I don't think it's possible?
[15:36]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Except maybe to give them a "slurl" but tell them to switch to the other grid first
[15:37]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Meerkat was most of the way there, since you could do intergrid TPs. It seems to have died now though, allegedly with some devs coming to Impru, no?
[15:37]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I went back and forth between SL and OSgrid many times on Meerkat. Vey flakey, but it worked.
[15:38]	Morgaine Dinova: 	The trouble I'm told is that LL's viewer classes never expected to have to cleanup ready for a login to a different grid.
[15:38]	Armin Weatherwax: 	we have still the issue that groups arent cleaned up when hopping and sometimes your bodyparts rez in lost+found ...
[15:39]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Which is why a server crash dumps you on your butt, instead of returning to the login screen.
[15:40]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I bet it must be fun to work on Naali... not having to deal with a bunch of awful legacy code.... *sighs wistfully, watches the clouds roll by*
[15:40]	Morgaine Dinova: 	lol
[15:40]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Sympathies
[15:42]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Fun thread starting at my post here -- https://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/2010-February/000088.html
[15:43]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I'd love to be a fly on the wall at LL, before and after Q wrote his short and very silly piece.
[15:43]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah, I've been looking at that
[15:43]	Armin Weatherwax: 	from my side we can join naali as soon as i get it compiled ...
[15:44]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehe Armin
[15:45]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yeah, I started getting it compiled too. It's got some relly crappy dependencies, like PythonQt, but I'm hitting them with a hammer and they're slowing bending into shape.
[15:46]	Armin Weatherwax: 	i cant get qt 4.6 without breaking my system ;(
[15:48]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Ditto, I'm all 4.5.3. As I said, the reX guys use some really crappy dependencies
[15:48]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	porbably made sense to them. Different countries have different priorities.
[15:49]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	I'm still trying to get them to set up a talk about realxtend at the groupies meeting
[15:49]	Morgaine Dinova: 	That would be cool
[15:50]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Aye, but when a package is so crappy that it doesn't even have a config system with dependency checking, then the right approach is to import it into your package, until upstream finally gets its act together and you can remove your copy.
[15:53]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I really can't fathom what LL are doing, at all.
[15:55]	Armin Weatherwax: 	any news about when they want to deliver 2.0 ?
[15:56]	Azwaldo Villota: 	an acquintance recently remarked about OpenSim: "...that project is in such a mess! I don't see how anyone takes it seriously anymore." - - Do any of you have reason for doubt as to the potential with OpenSim?
[15:56]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hah, did you see Maggie's paste on Groupies? Classic
[15:58]	Armin Weatherwax: 	I was looking at opensim 2ys ago the first time. it was almost nothing. today it is almost like being in SL ... my guess is that it is better in about 1 year
[15:58]	Armin Weatherwax: 	better += than SL
[16:00]	Armin Weatherwax: 	(another 3 ys that users understand it)
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehe
[16:01]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, I think let's adjourn for this week.
[16:01]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Take care, everyone!
[16:01]	Armin Weatherwax: 	take care Jacek :)
[16:01]	Morgaine Dinova: 	See you Jacek. Sorry not much of a meeting this time :-(
[16:02]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Thankees :-)