User Experience Interest Group/Transcripts/2010-01-21

== Topic ==
User Experience Interest Group Discussion for January 21, 2010.
Topic: Integration with External Services.
== Summary ==
We discussed possibilities for integrating external services like Twitter and Flickr into the viewer UI.
== Links ==
* Upload to Flickr via email
== Transcript ==
[15:13]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Today we're talking about integrating the viewer with external services like Flicker and Twitter.
[15:14]	Azwaldo Villota usually thinks we've already started whenever Jacek says "Let's get started" 	Azwaldo Villota usually thinks we've already started whenever Jacek says "Let's get started"
[15:14]	Jacek Antonelli: 	*Flickr. Silly lack of an e.
[15:14]	Jacek Antonelli: 	So, things like being able to send your snapshots directly to Flickr, or tweet from the viewer UI.
[15:14]	Charlette Proto: 	in this context a better viewer would include YouTube etc
[15:15]	Jacek Antonelli: 	What would the integration with YouTube be, Charlette? Recording videos, or watching them?
[15:15]	Charlette Proto: 	watching and uploading, searching, group sharing of content
[15:16]	Charlette Proto: 	I really think the group IM shuld allow for media content sharing - as described on the Imprudence forum
[15:16]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, interesting concept.
[15:16]	Jacek Antonelli: 	What other services would be cool to integrate with the viewer?
[15:17]	McCabe Maxsted: 	in my own personal use, integration with flickr and plurk would be highly beneficial, as my avatar has a presence in both areas. Youtube uploading has definitely helped spread knowledge of spore around...
[15:17]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I think that's a bit too much for IMs and should be sim local.
[15:17]	Charlette Proto: 	group IMs are often used like a meeting/conference presentation venue
[15:17]	Geneko Nemeth: 	That's kinda silly, people who can't even virtually come together... or maybe there's just too many?
[15:18]	Geneko Nemeth: 	(of them)
[15:18]	Azwaldo Villota: 	We can send snapshots to Flickr using "Send via email", so a new Flickr implementation would look like...what?
[15:18]	Charlette Proto: 	I disagree Gen, having it comms not sim based would allow for greater number of participants without fixing the sim load problem
[15:18]	McCabe Maxsted: 	can we? I thought that was just snapzilla
[15:18]	Azwaldo Villota: 	Would not want to replace "Send via email" in Snapshot tool
[15:19]	Charlette Proto: 	re Flikr; the snapshot floater has been waiting for a resizable fix a long time
[15:19]	McCabe Maxsted: 	how about a "send to flickr" option
[15:19]	Charlette Proto: 	yup McCabe
[15:19]	Jacek Antonelli: 	(D'oh, Send via email crashes the Imprudence test build for me, heh.)
[15:19]	McCabe Maxsted: 	aw, wb
[15:19]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Can someone send me the past few minutes of chat in a notecard please?
[15:20]	Charlette Proto: 	but first the snapshot floater needs to be made more comprehensive eg include crop and bigger preview
[15:20]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Thanks McCabe
[15:20]	Azwaldo Villota: 	how about a "Send to ___" option, to be entered by user (might want Koinup, might want Snapzilla, Flickr, etc.)
[15:20]	Azwaldo Villota: 	...and viewer stores my choice
[15:21]	Charlette Proto: 	yes Azwaldo, simply a HTTP (URL) destination
[15:21]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I'm not sure how sending to Flickr via email works. Do you have to remember a special email address to send it to?
[15:21]	McCabe Maxsted: 	do users need to authenticate first?
[15:21]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Yup, no.
[15:21]	Geneko Nemeth: 	You're given a e-mail address like fennec29raccoon@flickr.com
[15:21]	Geneko Nemeth: 	*photos.flickr.com
[15:22]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay. Well at the very least, it seems like the viewer should be able to remember that for you, if you want, so that you don't have to type it in repea'tedly.
[15:23]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Some kind of address book then?
[15:23]	Azwaldo Villota: 	McCabe: see http://www.flickr.com/account/uploadbyemail/
[15:23]	Jacek Antonelli: 	But integration could also include things like naming, tagging, and organizing into sets. I'm not sure if you can do that via email
[15:23]	Mm Alder: 	I don't think you'd want to do those inside SL
[15:23]	Jacek Antonelli: 	No?
[15:23]	McCabe Maxsted: 	ah I see, nice!
[15:24]	Charlette Proto: 	on a similar note - the viewer has just one path on HD (last path used) and seems to store snapshots and upload from the same path - this needs to be a per task list I think
[15:24]	Mm Alder: 	I think you'd just want SL to give you the connectivity.
[15:24]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hrm, Looks like you can set tags via email, at least.
[15:25]	Jacek Antonelli: 	But, there may be other services that don't have email functionality.
[15:25]	Charlette Proto: 	yes Jacek, with any uploads the tags are best done at the time of upload since people rarely come back to fix anything
[15:25]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I haven't used Koinup or the others before, not sure how they work.
[15:25]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Maybe they have different APIs.
[15:26]	Geneko Nemeth: 	The best way is probably to have plugins for each of those API...
[15:26]	Jacek Antonelli: 	True. Let's not go too deep into the technical/implementation side of things, though.
[15:26]	Jacek Antonelli: 	For the sake of the discussion, let's assume that there is some way that the viewer could post things to these services.
[15:27]	Jacek Antonelli: 	So for photos, there might be options on the snapshot floater to send to a specific service, and it could remember your special email address or login details. How about other services?
[15:27]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Say, Twitter. How would that fit into the UI?
[15:27]	Charlette Proto: 	the simple way for now is to think of it as an additional XML file with various needs (attributes for a given URL
[15:28]	McCabe Maxsted: 	integration into the chatbar?
[15:28]	Jacek Antonelli: 	(Or Plurk, for those who prefer it)
[15:28]	Mm Alder: 	Why would you want to integrate Twitter?
[15:28]	Jacek Antonelli: 	(Or Identi.ca, or whatever)
[15:28]	Jacek Antonelli: 	So you could post status updates without leaving the viewer, Mm
[15:28]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Like, "I'm at this cool art gallery in SL"
[15:28]	McCabe Maxsted: 	people use huds for that right now
[15:28]	Charlette Proto: 	maybe that would store the HD locations per task e.g. snapshot, texture upload, sound or animations
[15:28]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I know there are scripted HUDs for that now, so there's obviously a demand.
[15:28]	Charlette Proto: 	like a paths XML
[15:29]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Charlette: We're not going into implementation details now
[15:29]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Why not just use the •••• browser?
[15:29]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Geneko: Then you have to keep the browser open to Twitter all the time
[15:29]	Charlette Proto: 	OK, just thinking of a way to fix a few path related problems
[15:30]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Part of the appeal of Twitter is that you can easily post to it in many ways. Text message, on the web, via various client programs...
[15:30]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Easy access is important
[15:30]	Mm Alder: 	But if you integrate it, then you clutter up the UI more.
[15:31]	Charlette Proto: 	going back to what I raised before - the snpshot floater should be expandable and provide crop e.g. make portrait or square pics
[15:31]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Not necessarily, Mm. I'm sure there must be ways to integrate it without cluttering up the UI
[15:32]	Jacek Antonelli: 	At the very least, there could be a chat bar "command", like "/twitter I'm at this cool gallery"
[15:32]	Mm Alder: 	That sounds reasonable.
[15:32]	Geneko Nemeth: 	That sounds like turning the chat bar into an Awesomebar.
[15:32]	Charlette Proto: 	the snapshot floater is a better place - Emerald users type crap console commands all too often
[15:33]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Type twitter messages into the snapshot floater, Charlette?
[15:33]	Charlette Proto: 	also console is so noob unfriendly
[15:33]	Mm Alder: 	which console?
[15:33]	Charlette Proto: 	I mean expand the floater to include the destinations and tagging etc
[15:33]	Geneko Nemeth: 	command-line style interaction, not any particular console.
[15:33]	Charlette Proto: 	the chat console Mm
[15:34]	Azwaldo Villota: 	"But if you integrate it, then you clutter up the UI more." - - can "floaters' be made available in preferences panel, so I could choose which ones clutter up my UI?
[15:34]	Mm Alder: 	Hmm I though chat was one of the easy ones
[15:34]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Sure, Azwaldo. That's possible, and an interesting approach
[15:34]	Charlette Proto: 	sry I shouldn't use my homebrew language, but I think of the chat box as console as far as UI goes
[15:35]	Azwaldo Villota: 	(What happened to my new user orientation HUD, the one that opened automatically for my alt last year?)
[15:35]	Azwaldo Villota: 	(Was glad I took that alt through orientation, it had changed significantly!)
[15:35]	Geneko Nemeth: 	It already has 9 pages....
[15:36]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Help > Tutorial
[15:36]	Charlette Proto: 	in case previous statements weren't clear; the snapshot floater could have the less/more appended to include tagging and destination related options
[15:36]	Azwaldo Villota: 	tutorial: nice!
[15:37]	Charlette Proto: 	save, save as, upload and in more it would expand to include a text entry field
[15:37]	Jacek Antonelli: 	While we're talking about Twitter, how about the reverse direction -- receiving status updates from other people?
[15:37]	Azwaldo Villota: 	i would like access to that tutorial HUD, make some custom content
[15:37]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hi Morgaine, welcome
[15:37]	Charlette Proto: 	hi Morg
[15:37]	Azwaldo Villota: 	Howdy Morgaine
[15:37]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hi Jacek, hi all :-) Really bad overrun at Merov's
[15:38]	Geneko Nemeth: 	A "what's new in Imprudence" would be nice, although I don't think there should be a new one for new resis.
[15:38]	McCabe Maxsted: 	ahoy morgaine
[15:38]	Jacek Antonelli: 	We're talking about integration with external services. At the moment, Twitter.
[15:38]	Geneko Nemeth: 	(Yeah right)
[15:38]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Geneko: I don't think anyone has suggested a new one for new resis?
[15:38]	Mm Alder: 	Morgaine, I think your butterfly likes me. :-)
[15:38]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Sorry, zapping it
[15:38]	McCabe Maxsted: 	geneko: the windows imprudence installer now takes you to a "new features in imprudence" page; that work for you?
[15:39]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I think it may work better if it's done in the viewer itself and as a walkthrough...
[15:39]	Jacek Antonelli: 	So, getting back to Twitter -- is receiving status updates from other people something useful for integration in the viewer? And how might that look? Would they appear in chat, or a separate floater?
[15:40]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Maybe route them through the notificaiton system.
[15:40]	Mm Alder: 	Well if you put them in Communicate, they could have their own tab.
[15:40]	Morgaine Dinova: 	This subject probably ties in with interop with other worlds through group IM / Jabber / IRC too, which interests me.
[15:40]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Geneko: Blue popups, like the online/offline notifications?
[15:41]	Charlette Proto: 	consider my approach for a second; use IM box for real time coms and collaborative tasks e.g. facebook comments on pics you uploaded and the snapshot for uploads to webpages
[15:41]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Like that. But a bit mre.
[15:41]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay
[15:41]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Somethink like those LL mockups?
[15:41]	McCabe Maxsted: 	with regard to receiving, I'd like mine to appear in chat (as in: JonnnyQ responded to your twitter: blah blah blah <link to respond>), but I don't make many status updates or receive many comments on the one I do
[15:41]	Charlette Proto: 	agree McCabe
[15:42]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Would you want only replies to your updates, or also normal posts from other people?
[15:42]	Charlette Proto: 	there are two classes of UI functions here, real time and upload/tag media
[15:43]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I'm thinking of all subscribed people, this is why they go through notification system.
[15:44]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay. I wonder if that might be too spammy for people who are following a lot of people. I guess it would need to be fairly configurable.
[15:44]	Charlette Proto: 	a mute Jacek
[15:45]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Maybe options for receiving no updates, only replies to you, only certain people, or everyone
[15:45]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I'd like to move on to Jabber next. Any final thought about Twitter/etc.?
[15:45]	Azwaldo Villota: 	fairly configurable: nodding
[15:45]	McCabe Maxsted thinks there needs to be an easy way to respond once you receive an update too	McCabe Maxsted thinks there needs to be an easy way to respond once you receive an update too
[15:45]	Charlette Proto: 	but first I would address inworld group spam e.g. IM and notice options if the mute was to be expanded
[15:46]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Could we take a step back and ask what the actual goal is *in practice*? Is it to turn the viewer app into a common browser for all comms, or what?
[15:46]	Azwaldo Villota: 	"easy way to respond" sounds like floater feature
[15:46]	Charlette Proto: 	kind of Moragine
[15:47]	Charlette Proto: 	the UI should accommodate comm tasks for inworld and other web services in a similar manner
[15:47]	Jacek Antonelli: 	The idea is to make it easier to use services from within SL, for services where people would want to use them from within SL.
[15:47]	Morgaine Dinova: 	It's a bit of a wierd goal, if that is the goal, seeing as the viewer widget sets and performance is so appalling compared to native widgets.
[15:48]	Charlette Proto: 	especially if we are thinking of the inernet being used via the viewer in the future
[15:48]	Jacek Antonelli: 	For example, we mentioned earlier that there are already scripted HUDs for communicating with Twitter/Plurk/etc. from within SL. So obviously there's some demand in having integration with those services.
[15:48]	Charlette Proto: 	actually azwaldo's collaborative HUD dispaly is kind of relevant here too
[15:48]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Ugh, deadlock.
[15:48]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Likewise for Flickr -- being able to post snapshots directly to Flickr would be useful, and I'm sure there is interest in that.
[15:48]	McCabe Maxsted: 	wb geneko
[15:49]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek: "from within SL" is a different kettle of fish, if you mean from in-world. But the viewer app is not "in-world". Integration into the viewer window doesn't bring anything in-world, it's not in-world integration.
[15:49]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Let me rephrase: from within the viewer, so you don't have to switch to a separate application to use the service.
[15:50]	Charlette Proto: 	the viewer Morg can be though of as an all purpose web browser
[15:50]	Morgaine Dinova: 	But that's the issue, the viewer is a dreadful vehicle for anything 2D.
[15:50]	Charlette Proto: 	basically bring browser services to the Second Life™ interface
[15:50]	McCabe Maxsted: 	I don't see integration as ever being thought of as a replacement for the service; more, a minimal tool of convenience
[15:51]	McCabe Maxsted: 	that's kinda what we're discussing morgaine
[15:51]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Even if the viewer UI is ugly, being able to tweet from it is better than having to exit fullscreen, switch to another application, tweet, then switch back.
[15:51]	Mm Alder: 	An alternative would be to just invoke a browser from the viewer whenever you want it.
[15:52]	Azwaldo Villota: 	Charlette: I think I followed what you suggested about the HUD display, was thinking about that too; would like to hear more of your idea...maybe offline
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Or for Flickr, posting directly from the viewer is better than taking a snapshot, saving to disk, switching to a web browser, then uploading to Flickr from the browser, then switching back.
[15:52]	McCabe Maxsted: 	you mean like besides view > webbrowser, say, view > update twitter that takes you right to the twitter page?
[15:52]	Mm Alder: 	Yes, McCabe
[15:53]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Mm: That's certainly a valid approach
[15:53]	Charlette Proto: 	shame not everyone here is familiar with your HUD Azwaldo, but in my view it crosses a lot of what we are looking at here now
[15:53]	Jacek Antonelli: 	At least for some of the services
[15:53]	Mm Alder: 	It does make sense to integrate photo uploads
[15:53]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I think small powerful hooks are always useful, like the click-on-link and it launches a browser. But actually adding new clients into the viewer is a step too far --- it'll never be good, it'll lways be slower by a factor of hundreds than native widgets, and it bloats the viewer and adds bugs.
[15:53]	Azwaldo Villota: 	Jacek: yes, and even the task of entering SnapZilla's email addy is enough work to make me think twice
[15:54]	Azwaldo Villota: 	(post direct from viewer)
[15:54]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Let's talk about another type of service for a while -- chat services, like Jabber, Gtalk, AIM, MSN, ICQ, whatever.
[15:54]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Also IRC
[15:54]	Jacek Antonelli: 	*Chat/IM services
[15:54]	Charlette Proto: 	chat would naturally make new IM boxes
[15:55]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Again here, "small powerful hooks" would be great, but reinventing Pidgin or an IRC client in the viewer is ... questionable.
[15:55]	Charlette Proto: 	and need some way to 'subscribe'/'open' the outworld ones
[15:56]	Azwaldo Villota: 	Charlette has mentioned a project that is very new for me; I have written about it here: http://bit.ly/4ovjaV (SLURL posted below the big, fat diagram)
[15:56]	Charlette Proto: 	once again - this should be similar to opening the group/private IMs and have more option as to what shows up and when
[15:56]	Azwaldo Villota: 	all are welcome, demo takes ~5 min; bring a friend!
[15:56]	Charlette Proto: 	thanks Azwaldo
[15:56]	Morgaine Dinova: 	One "small powerful hook" would be to maintain a per-group table of chat services, so that for example when in AW Groupies, a button could spawn pidgin on awg@conferences.jabber.org (or whatever is configured). But a whole Jabber client ... noooo.
[15:57]	Azwaldo Villota: 	can do better: here is the SLURL http://slurl.com/secondlife/Gyatso/33/9/351
[15:58]	Charlette Proto: 	if the built-in viewer was more up to date most tasks could be handled tere I suppose Morgaine
[15:58]	Charlette Proto: 	there*
[15:59]	Mm Alder: 	That's the point to of the media API
[15:59]	Charlette Proto: 	still, I think the IM box and snapshot floater may need the comms options and upload stuff
[15:59]	Charlette Proto: 	yes Mm, but UI needs the hooks
[16:00]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Mm's point is important. It's tailor made for spawning new apps that hook in, without bloating the viewer.
[16:00]	Charlette Proto: 	Media Plugin API generally does not facilitate UI
[16:00]	Mm Alder: 	Well it could :-)
[16:01]	Mm Alder: 	We're talking wishes here
[16:01]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Still early days, admittedly. But each time the subject comes up, both Merov and Q seem quite certain that general UI use is the future for Plugin-API.
[16:01]	Azwaldo Villota: 	is it correct to say the the new Media Plugin functionality does NOT include true HTML on a prim? (stream web page onto prim, touch to interact with website content)
[16:02]	Charlette Proto: 	if the changes are smart, the UI will benefit not bloat e.g. snapshot as is is practicall useless and the group IMs need options for Notice and Chat instead of just one tickbox
[16:02]	Mm Alder: 	It's just an API, not an application
[16:02]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Aye, the application lives in the plugin process.
[16:02]	Charlette Proto: 	no Azwaldo, but that functionality appears to be precisely where it would go
[16:04]	Azwaldo Villota: 	i never logged in to Qwaq, but was told there was true HTML on < an object > there
[16:04]	Charlette Proto: 	live HTML on prims (inworld or on a HUD) is one side, comms through IM box for chat functions and Snapshot floater for simple uploads to URLs
[16:05]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Aimee still remains to make clear what her status is with Plugin-API. She was a leading light on the VNC use of it, but that doesn't necessarily mean that she'll be moving that ahead faster now that she's a Linden. Being at LL also puts a ball and chain on you.
[16:05]	Charlette Proto: 	a snapshot floater with bigger/resizable preview, crop and more path options plus tagging
[16:06]	Mm Alder: 	OK, Charlette.
[16:06]	Azwaldo Villota makes note to read manual for Emerald's IRC tab in Chat Console 	Azwaldo Villota makes note to read manual for Emerald's IRC tab in Chat Console
[16:06]	Azwaldo Villota: 	* Contacts in Communicate "floater"
[16:07]	Charlette Proto: 	agree morgaine and Aimee's demos hardly seemed focused on tasks in my view - more like - this wacky thing is possible, look at me do this, but hardly anything on why would I do that
[16:08]	Charlette Proto: 	no intention to criticize here - just plain critique; I'm used to demonstration of new features on the basis of task not tech possibilities
[16:08]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, let's wrap up for this week. Any final remarks about integration with external services?
[16:08]	Mm Alder: 	If the media API doesn't already allow for generating floater to interact with, it would be quite simple to do that.
[16:09]	Mm Alder: 	That would free teh viewer from bloat.
[16:09]	Mm Alder: 	Just an implementation detail :-)
[16:10]	Azwaldo Villota: 	integration with external apps seems the way of the web, suspect it would add value
[16:11]	Azwaldo Villota: 	I am heading back to the project space mentioned by Charlette, all are welcome. (And, this is an experiment so far...not a product I am promoting)
[16:11]	Charlette Proto: 	my conclusion is; comms through IM box for outworld chat functions, the Snapshot floater for uploads to URLs, tagging etc and live HTML on prims (inworld or on a HUD) for services that we haven't anticipated eg Gmail or facebook
[16:11]	Azwaldo Villota: 	Thank you, Jacek, for making this event happen
[16:11]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Thanks for coming, Azwaldo :)
[16:11]	Charlette Proto: 	Az is this the demo I saw the other day (4 green pads)?
[16:11]	Azwaldo Villota: 	cheers, All
[16:12]	McCabe Maxsted: 	take care azwaldo :)
[16:12]	Azwaldo Villota: 	Charlette, yes; here is the SLURL http://slurl.com/secondlife/Gyatso/33/9/351
[16:12]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I think I will come check it out, Azwaldo
[16:12]	Mm Alder: 	nice chatting with y'all. bye
[16:12]	Charlette Proto: 	worth a look Jacek
[16:12]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, that's all for this week. Thanks for coming, everyone! Take care, and see you next week
[16:13]	Charlette Proto: 	he has HUD based display, but I would like to see HTTP outworld data on the HUD too