Mono/2008-02-08

* : Hiya
* : Hi, folks. I'm going to disable scripts in this region only for the next hour
* : nps were here for the meeting anywho
* : hello everybody
* : hi there
* : Periapse how do we pronounce your name?
* : Hello, Rex
* : Howdy
* : is this the place where the mono office hours?
* : yup
* : It's pronounced perry-apps
* : :D pink was right, thanks
* : lol
* : just call me peri ;-)
* : Daten was right now
* : so we sit on the floor or we get seats? lol
* : is this in chat or voice?
* : r u a vampire hunter?
* : This will be chat, since I want to be able to post the transcript
* : good poin
* : t
* : feel free to rez yourself a chair ;-)
* : If only one could say that in real world meetings...
* : yea lol BYOC
* : lol
* : already on BYOB <Jd actualy>
* : Oh boy
* : This sim has been crashing a lot today. so give me a minute to turn off scripting
* : kk
* : np
* : only takes 4 clicks :D:
* : 5*
* : done
* : something tells me the meeting isent going to be to big today
* : well, first I had to go into god mode.
* : ooo...God mode
* : ahh :D lindens should have EM powers
* : less clicks
* : Yeah, small group
* : was there an office hour on wednesday?
* : Yay, I finally got into the sim.
* : It's denying teleport entry for some reason.
* : The one on Wednesday morning is at 8am SLT
* : i logged directly into this sim
* : Welcome, Feynt
* : want a chair Peri?
* : lol
* : That's ok, I sit all day long. The standing is good for my legs ;-)
* : >D
* : hehe
* : lol
* : i think ive only got about 3 questions, maby more when i think of them
* : I wasn't able to attend the meeting on Tuesday, but thankfully all 7 of my questions were answered.
* : Well, I want to start by mentioning that we do two office hours every weeki
* : Unfortunatelly 4 of them were passed off to "ask Babbage during the office hours" >D
* : The wednesday one is at 8am SLT so that EU residents can attend
* : i am EU lol
* : but i sleep on an american time lime
* : line*
* : Daten -- I guess it's only 11pm or so for you?
* : I know that feeling, I'm EST but I sleep PST times. >)
* : yea england lol
* : hehe
* : ok ill shutup now and let ya talk
* : Well, that's where Babbage and Scouse live.
* : They work out of our Brighton UK office
* : i want to work as a linden but my app hasent been seen to i dont think
* : So right about now I'm guessing they're at the pub. :-)
* : i love concierge work
* : lol yea
* : friday
* : Woot, pub night.
* : We can use this time for several things.
* : If you have questions I will either answer them
* : or if they are too technical for my poor PM brain, I'll bring them up with the developers and get back to you
* : That's a challenge...Love those!
* : Also, if you have specific bugs you've discovered and JIRAfyed
* : I'll be getting those same 4 passed on to Babbage I guess. >D
* : lol
* : where can i find the transcript from wednesday?
* : we can discuss repro and priority for getting them fixed.
* : No challenge, APinkSwan -- it's far too easy to go over my head.
* : >D
* : lol
* hasn't written a line of professional code since 1998
* : ouch
* : no offence but why you ?
* : I'm the PM for the project.
* : Ahh
* : That's ok, coding is like bike riding. After 10 years you just keep falling off until you break something. >D
* : lmao!
* : ahahahaahahaha
* : oke just tell me when i can shoot with questions
* : Hey, Saijanai, welcome
* : Daten, go ahead
* : ok first question, When can we expect to be able to send our regions in for Mono testing
* : Oh, someone asked about the Wednesday transcript. I'll look for it.
* : on either main or beta grid
* : oh, and could it be possible that the following page can have the links to all the transcripts, new and old: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mono
* : I read in Tuesday's transcript that loading the Mono engine along side the LSL VM wouldn't be hard, but that'd be after Havok comes out.
* : Good question, Daten. The havok4 beta seems to have created this expectation, no?
* : yea just a bit
* : For sure
* nods
* : there is a sim inpaticular i wana get here
* : We never used to do this. But it's been a great success for havok4
* : i loved it me and pink have about7 of our regions on H4
* : I'm not sure though that the same applies for Mono. I'll explain in a bit.
* : But first: We don't currently have plans to schedule regions to bring up in Mono-enabled, nor do we yet have plans for going to agni.
* : We're still in the "stop the bleeding" phase for Mono. Just look at the meta issue, or the table Saijanai has made of all the bugs
* : But next month we should be talking about next steps.
* : So let me get your opinions on scheduling regions to bring up in Mono.
* : NOw
* : Realize that scripts and physics are different.
* : >D
* : Now.
* : Bringing up a sim in Havok4 makes everything Havok4
* would like a month after havok 4.
* : I can see that bringing mono whilst H4 is up could be probllmatic but i would love to see the change in script MS,
* : But with Mono you stil have to recompile to use the new VM
* : dose mono currently have more or less bugs than H4?
* : I haven't checked Havok4 lately...
* : still that entire vichel system
* : We have several dozen
* : lol
* : So, given that you still have to recompile all your scripts (that you want to test) to Mono, is there stil benefit to bringing a region up under Mono?
* : Why not just rez objects here in a Sandbox, since you have to recompile a selection anyway?
* : well im a lag conciouse person, all the sims i manage MUST be under 5.0 MS in script time else i go nuts, i would love to be able to see the change in MS when mono is involved, im not sure weather its possible for the Devs to make a button to reset all scripts in a region but that could helo
* : help*
* : Anyone have an opinion on that? I
* : Ah, Daten. That's my next discussion point.
* : how about if this sim was at least half damage anabled?
* : shameless plug: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Saijanai_Kuhn/Mono_issues
* : thanks saijanai
* : Ah, Rex -- good point. I want to get a water sim, a damage sim (or parcels), and a teen grid sim running Mono
* : Hopefully next week. It's hard because the Havok4 beta is still running, and they pretty much own this grid.
* : i think rausch would make a good choice
* : I managed to get this one host, so that's four regions.
* : Not Jesse?
* : that sux, i would happily say here use mine lol
* : lol
* : Periapse, I mentioned thisidea to Sidewinder. IF there's a hard time getting people to host mono sims on the main grid, offer them an incentive of being on a publicly available list (optional)
* : hi sai
* : I can understand H4 taking precedence since it is on the main grid though.
* : i mean mono and H4 together are a mean combination of lag reducing
* : lol
* : why don't u want h4 and mono together?
* : je my point
* : Mmm, food.
* : combinations of errors make it harder to test for bugs...
* : true
* : was typing at same time as u:)
* : Eventually we will merge the codelines of Havok4 and Mono and see what weird coupling we obtain.
* : I agree Saiijanai
* : Hello!
* : Heya
* : hi
* : I talked about it with sidewinder a month ago and we just smiled and thought "No, we're not ready for that yet"
* crosses his legs, NOT MY NUTS!
* : Heya, Squirrel.
* : ^^
* : hey, if sidewinder wants to make a few of his H4 grids also mono... ;-)
* : sidewinder is a sim hog?
* : So that's why for now at least we aren't going to do the region scheduling for Mono here.
* : Morning Squirrel.
* : better to be safe than sorry
* : We can re-examine it after Havok4 finishes with this grid.
* : though you need to leave at least 1 or 2 H4 sims here to test for reagion crossing issues
* : So if you have good reasons why it would benefit you to bring up region X under Mono please contribute to those discussions
* : can i ask next quesioon?
* : simple: to test mono scripts and vehicles on h4 ?
* : >)
* : Squirrel, we're talking about bringing up regions under Mono, not havok4
* : Actually I have a good reason Periapse: There are some scripts in Serenity Woods which will never be converted to Mono, as the creators are gone or simply unavailable.
* : A good reason for me would be Protoball
* : I think Peri is looking for something more specific...:)
* : Those of us scripters for the sim however would like to test our creations recompiled under Mono to see what impact it would have on the sim combined with the current LSL2 scripts.
* : ja!
* : Feynt. Ok - so I think I see the problem. What you seem to really be asking for is a way to automatically turn all of a regions scripts over to Mono bytecode
* : that sounds righ
* : t
* : Well that would also be nice, but it's more that we want to see if our scripts will affect the script time enough to make a difference.
* : Or if we should be scrapping the old scripted objects and replace them.
* : We (the Studio Blighty Mono team) are really dubious about automatically converting scripts to Mono.
* : For a lot of reasons:
* : 1) Scripts will all reset
* : 2) Really old, legacy scripts may not compile, work correctly, and the scripter may not be available
* : Dose this mean recompile scripts button will work finaly?
* : An issue with our sim, which we understand.
* : 3) It may be that you scripters want to maintain control over your bytecode.
* : yes!
* : At the same time, I think it would be nice for the object owner to be able to recompile scripted objects on a per object basis.
* : but, won't lsl be abandoned eventually, so if that happens legacy scripts wil vanish too
* : If we automatically convert we rob you of the opportunity to test and sell a new Mono version
* : true
* : and 4) we don't have plans to eliminate the LSL2 VM.
* : so there is no need.
* : AH....Okay....this is making sense to me now.
* : but dose that not mean 40% of old items wont work due to inactive creators?
* : As a scripter, I can gleefully say that I would not be so shallow as to require someone to buy the same product compiled under a different VM. >)
* : well, if it compiles the first time, sure. But what if rewrites are needed?
* : Feynt - but think about it. What if there are slight differences in behavior?
* : /
* : It may be really simple to recompile your script to Mono, but *testing* it is labor that you might want to recoup.
* : i am not sure i understand point #3, what do u mean we want to maintain control over the bytecode
* : What I'm talking about now, Rex.
* : Rex we dont want to release our scripts open sorce
* : lol
* is wrnong then
* : there are quite a number of products which are not intended to be reset
* : You might want to be reimbursed for the effort of recompiling and testing your scripts under mono
* : doing so will break the scripts and functionality on those
* : yes, Squirrel,
* : so that's why we're afraid to do an automatic conversion to Mono
* : We prefer to leave it up to the scripters like yourselves.
* : Some may release Mono versions free to all customers. Others will charge for it.
* : though there are products out there that have been scripted by people who either have left SL or have moved on to another plane of existence
* : Yay crashing. I believe that's what this beta is here for, to make LSL Mono work like the LSL2 VM.
* : Next question?
* : ok second question, Ive been working closeley with some animators to make less laggy animation scripts, but the minimum we could acheeve was 0.200 when in use, will mono decrease this?
* : If a product I've made doesn't work right after converting, I would make a newer version available for free.
* : animations.. use multiple scripts ?
* : Daten, as far as I know none of our benchmarks used animation calls.
* : the event delay in prior LSL was about 0.13. Mono seems to be reduced to 0.05, thereabouts.
* : so why do animations cause up to 0.800 MS when sat on in script time
* : This would be good to get into our benchmarks
* : Oh, on a related topic, will Mono affect the timing to rez things?
* : Daten -- that sounds like an awful lot of wasted time. Please file a JIRA.
* : I'll make sure it gets looked at.
* : will do
* : Feynt -- I belive most of the time for rezzing is downloading the assets. If that's true then no change.
* : And on another related note, for shielding specifically, will sensor calls trigger faster for an llRezObject call to put a barrier in the path of an object?
* : A decent number of scripts running tight loops (not using timers, not using llSleep) will slow down mono considerably. up to the point of near standstill
* didn't mean fully rezzed with textures, he meant a prim object appears in world faster.
* : you talking about a while(1) loop? @ Squirrel
* : thats odd. NOt working
* : for example
* : Seems like scripts are disabled.
* : in this region they are.
* : scripts are off here and now, sai
* : I disabled scripts in this region just for this hour
* : ah, OK. So muchforst multi-taskin
* : Heh
* : I didn't want any crashies
* : makes the sense
* : Or griefing.
* : that too
* : Feynt -- I don't think there is any direct speedup. But it's easy for you to test it yourself, no?
* : Not specifically, but I can find a "friend" to take some pot shots at me. >D
* : lol.
* : I hear that with mono some other languages may be possible but, do linden labs think its a good idea, LSL is a simple language and with very little c++ knowlage i learnt it in under a year, but if for example c++ was able, it would screw some people over, i cant get my head around big languages and more advance code means us who only know LSL will downfall
* : LSL won't disappear.
* : Daten -- we have no plans to abandon LSL
* : I'm thinking of putting up a jira to start work on LSL3.
* : i know i mean, some one could say bring out an object that can do a hell of alot more than LSL
* : we might *add* support for another language, like C#
* : LSL3 would be mono-only
* : even if C++ or C# is added, there would be certain constraints in regards of the functionality methinks
* : and NOT backwards compatible
* : right, we need to sandbox carefully
* : somebody could really have "fun" with poiters
* : pointers*
* : so no-one likes theidea of LSL3?
* : like, memory constraints, no file operations, ...
* : Squirrel -- absolutely.
* : why not jump from lsl2 to lsl5 ? :p
* : nah
* : lol
* : lsl20012
* : sls 2009
* : NM
* : the 64kb limit is just fine.
* : UltraLSL
* : ExtremeLSL
* : haha.
* : oh thats soming, so in mono we have 64kb to play with not 16?
* : daten - yes
* : wow thats alot more :D
* : thing is, right now there are constraints on tryng to keep LSL2 and mono-LSL2 the same, so we can't use new mono-features
* : by the by...
* : xtea encryption in mono is plenty fast now :)
* : link messaging seems quite slow
* : Damn it, this client's crashing so often...
* : but still no function to say how much memory is available at any time:(
* : I hadn't crashed this much all of last year. x.x.
* : Oh, i know that linden labs say notecard writing means creating new assets, but with mono is there another way now or is it still something we can only dream about?
* : Daten, you can use a LIBSL bot to create a notecard via email
* : Daten -- mono doesn't change asset system
* : i know i use a LibSl bot but once again C# baffles me :D
* : Ah, this question touches on one of mine, allowing scripts to write to scratch space in a sim.
* : According to Zero, writing to notecards is unlikely to happen as it creates too much of a loadon the asset server.
* : sai, can u do that with a script?
* : That's something I've not heard about before... writing notecards with automatic processes.
* : well, after Which helps me finish/debug my Python scripts, you could in theory write a bot in any language except LSL
* : all i want is my libsl bot to check script times for me XD
* : Simpleton
* : Feynt -- you're the second person I've heard ask about a scratch space
* : every time you change a notecard, a new asset has to be created and contents copied over.. Imagine a million scripts writing to notecards... the hell! LAG. Panic!
* : Actually I'm the first too. >3
* : grey goo + notecard creation
* : let us save notecards to our own comps XD
* : or our own servers
* : lol
* is fully aware of security
* : Feynt -- oh, that's right!
* : You can already save to your own servers using HTML.
* : there would be limits added to notecard creation of course
* : what exactly happens when u change the name or description of an object, isn't that data written to the database?
* : what we need is a way to have an item in the inteventory window that isn't an asset
* is a little drunk, and will shutup now
* : hmm.. a sim-restricted scratch space of 1mbyte per script... Oh My ^^
* : WHich is a really messy cilent issue
* : Not per script, per resident.
* : Rex -- the meta info changes (inventory server, I think) but the asset remains the same
* : Per script could get very costly, I've got several dozen scripts running in Serenity Woods. >)
* : but i'm not sure of that...
* : Rex, when you change a name or anything else in a client window, that automatically updates the server. TheGUI and server are linked really heavilyt
* : assume 5k scripts per sim. 4 sims per machine.. 20GB of space... with todays hard disk sizes... no problem
* : But if they could, say, read and write to the same memory area, they could share data effectively.
* : I must have about 40-50 scripts on me.
* : attached.
* : than create a new field in the meta data that used for reading/writing
* : sai, i can change name using a lsl function, as many times as i want
* : So there's a few minutes left. Anyone else have questions?
* : I can just pass my notecard along. >D
* gave you Feynt's Mono Questions.
* : Is there any sort of timeframe on this yet?
* : Thunder, timeframe on what?
* : wanted to remind folks to use my table, vote on my jira, and did you mention the idea of using debug messages as tags, Periapse?
* : I believe possible main grid testing, completion of Mono, integration of new languages. The works.
* : It's probably hard to say though, when Mono will reach the main grid. No expecations?
* : Keep up the good work :)
* : https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Saijanai_Kuhn/Mono_issues shameless plug again
* : Thunder -- Our plan is to run this beta, increasing regions as havok4 winds down, and fix bugs.
* : /bug
* : As we're doing this we have the opportunity to get feedback from you on what our next step should be
* : we have several options.
* : Periapse, did you mention the link/sleep issues?
* : It can be "Improve LSL", or "Give me feature X for Mono", or do C# in Mono
* : i have request to make, can following page contain links to all the transcripts: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mono
* wants Python most.
* : LSL3
* : Rex, my bad, The https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mono_beta_FAQ
* : Next step: Optimize Mono LSL as much as possible ;)
* : C# can go die of embarrassment in Redmond.
* : should have links to all transcripts. It only has the first one
* : Peri, my jira on animation scripts
* : https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1486
* : I'll post this one, and get the missing Wednesday transcript from Babbage if he still has it
* : Scripts must contain nuts. :p
* : I think that idea would be shot down like Eirinn's LOLcat suggestion.
* : Feynt -- lol, but Mono kens C# with ease, being all dotnet and all
* : But Mono knows Python as well!
* : And Java. >)
* : My two favourite languages. C# is a sad copy of Java.
* : Feynt -- indeed. I'm going to also start a page, or part of the beta wiki page, for agenda suggestions.
* : I would prefer that something like basic be added along with c(++/#) because it is easier for most people to grasp once more languages are scheduled to be added
* : Oh yes, and another good reason to go Python: regular expressions. C# doesn't have those. >D
* : Sai -- nope - did not have time to bring any of those up. That's why I'm going to start using an agenda ;-)
* : LSL is all I've really practiced in the past year.
* : Mmmm. Agenda!
* : LSL3. Same basic features as LSL2 but with sprinkles
* misses regular expressions, and directly accessable arrays.
* : Not to mention creating classes and using reference objects.
* : LSL3 - half the features at twice the speed? ;)
* : arrays, common library, better string handling
* : reference objects are forbidden unnless they are going to fit in that 64K memory
* : yes! arrays would be most welcome
* : I'm going to need to log back into the real world now.
* cried while making his latest program because LSL lists are torture. T.T
* : matrix operations besides rotations
* : have fun ^^
* : bye peri
* : take care
* : Thanks a lot for showing up and contributing
* : Night Periapse.
* : byebye
* : Thank you for your time and information.
* : thanks for having us :)
* : Be sure to pass my notecard along to Babbage. >D
* : and have some one look at my jira!
* : XD
* : I'll reenable scripts before I leave, and then copy the transcript to the https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mono_beta_FAQ
* : page
* : Yay!
* : And I'll make mono run really slow again ^^
* : Heh
* : Have a great weekend, cheers!
* : Night.
* : u 2
* : and I'm talking reeeeeeeeallly slooooooooooooooow
* : hooray, Squirrel. Wil help my benchmarking