Mesh/Archive/2011-06-13

=Agenda=
# I thought the decision to limit mesh uploads to payment info on file/used was discussed and shot down a long time back during the closed beta days. Why has it returned all of a sudden as a near-certainty? (Tiberious Neruda)
# It seems there are upload issues with specific Collada files. Namely, Collada v1.4.0 is ok, but the newer v1.4.1 files (as outputted from i.e. 3dsMax2012) show problems. (Forum post at http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/Collada-Version-Supported/m-p/923127 ). Therefore which Collada version(s), XML tags, or 3D programs are *supported* by the Second Life model importer? Supported = if it doesn't work, you will treat it as a bug in the importer. (DanielRavenNest Noe)
# An extra complication of the above issue remains the one described at JIRA CTS-603 which particularly seems to hit Maya users, even when the collada output is 1.4.0 (Maya 2011 with FBX 2011.x), due to the way the materials are handled with it. The viewer still ignores material names but sticks to the order that they are written in each LOD Collada file, resulting in jumbled materials. (Angel Alphaville)
# To expand on the above issues, the proper question is not whether we should waste time with specific programs (as put in the forum), but whether the 3D builder demographics are restricted strictly to Blender users or not. "Blender" is the most frequently written word in the forum as if it's the start and end of 3D software (which is not the case). (Angel Alphaville)
# Please update us on offset pivots, AssetPivot and potential use of <geometry> origin. [Drongle McMahon]
# Is it still true that a vertex can be assigned to a max of 4 groups? [Ashasekayi Ra]
# I'm still having an issue with the uploader closing the opening on an arch when Step 1: Analysis and Step 2: Simplification are used. http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/Physics-Uploader-Closing-Holes/td-p/924041 So, do I need to use Step 1 and Step 2 if the physics mesh that I created is low poly to begin with? (In this arch example, the physics mesh had 16 triangles.) Does the hull generated after Step 1 and 2 somehow make the physics shape more efficient? [Ashasekayi Ra]
#If I wanted to get the most accurate idea of how many prims a mesh object converts to, do I look at the "selection streaming cost" number under "Show Render Info"? [Ashasekayi Ra]
# Can you please update us on recent progress and tell us what your current priorities are? [Vivienne Daguerre]
# Is there anything in particular you need us to focus our testing on? [Vivienne Daguerre]
# In the recent and current mesh viewer, when I enable lighting and shadow my screen goes black. I can see things like the minimap and hovertext above my avatar, but HUD textures are messed up. I am using 2 ATI 5870 video cards in my Alienware laptop. Anyone else having this problem? The development viewer works just fine for me. Should I file a jira or are you aware of this issue? [Vivienne Daguerre]
# the black screen appears on my screen also when i set full screen (30). When i make it smaller, the scene reappears. [Gaia]
# Why are slm files binary ? And does it make sense to get a generateable XML file instead to prepare for easy (scripted) support from 3D editors? See [CTS-634]﻿ [Gaia]
# Is there documentation in laymen's terms yet? [Eleanora Newell]
# Is there a repository of videos on mesh techniques? I know Gaia is working on some thngs? I am looking specifically for information on offsetting bones for avatars that are micro and not human. [Eleanora Newell]
# Is there a matrix of what actually last known to be working build download works on which beta region?
# Recently Richard Linden marked http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-2242 as "fixed" but provided no information. Is this mesh related, or do I need to bug Andrew and Simon about it tomorrow to see if they have an answer? -Stickman 12:14, 13 June 2011 (PDT)
# What's PRIM TEST on Mesh City 2...Can see old meshes from outside but they disappear from inside...can't delete them.[Drongle]
=Meeting Notes=
==Attendees List==
*Angel (angel.alphaville)
*Ann Otoole (ann.otoole)
*Artisan Gearhead (artisan.gearhead)
*arton Rotaru (arton.rotaru)
*Asha (ashasekayi.ra)
*Bellahyae Enchanted (bellahyae.enchanted)
*Charlar Linden (charlar.linden)
*Cyphien Heart (cyphien.heart)
*Dahlia Trimble (dahlia.trimble)
*Drongle McMahon (drongle.mcmahon)
*Eata Kitty (eata.kitty)
*Monster LagGroup (eddi.decosta)
*Eleanora Newell (eleanora.newell)
*Gaia Clary (gaia.clary)
*Gearsawe Stonecutter (gearsawe.stonecutter)
*Jennifur Vultee (jennifur.vultee)
*Kayleigh McMillan (kayleigh.mcmillan)
*Kitteh Scientist (kitteh.scientist)
*Latif Khalifa (latif.khalifa)
*Masami Kuramoto (masami.kuramoto)
*Nal (nalates.urriah)
*Nyx Linden (nyx.linden)
*Object (object)
*Prep Linden (prep.linden)
*Rex Cronon (rex.cronon)
*Stickman (stickman)
*Tapple Gao (tapple.gao)
*TheBlack Box (theblack.box)
*Vivienne Daguerre (vivienne.daguerre)
==Transcript for Monday June 13, 2011==
[12:01]	Vivienne Daguerre 	/me smiles...
[12:01]	Vivienne Daguerre 	ah, SL... where the men are men, and the women are men, and the kids are FBI
[12:01]	Eleanora Newell 	boy, i can't get anything to work
[12:01]	arton Rotaru 	and the mommys on wooden hardware should upgrade someday
[12:01]	Ann Otoole 	i made a male avatar. it is nearly impossible to outfit a male avatar. ergo everyone is a female because designers refuse to cater to males.
[12:02]	Artisan Gearhead 	haha
[12:02]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	/me chuckles at Vivienne
[12:02]	Ann Otoole 	and the makle avatar is based on ruth so it always has shape issues anyway
[12:02]	Gaia Clary 	we seem to be closed out ;-)
[12:02]	Gaia Clary 	ahhh
[12:02]	Ann Otoole 	*male
[12:02]	Eleanora Newell 	i can't im or anything
[12:02]	Ann Otoole 	which mesh may correct
[12:02]	arton Rotaru 	we can't go on with SL with it's minecraft looking builds
[12:02]	Charlar Linden 	ok, let's get started.
[12:03]	Charlar Linden 	actually, one sec.
[12:03]	Nyx Linden 	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import/Scripting_User_Group
[12:03]	arton Rotaru 	ouch
[12:03]	Charlar Linden 	ok, first item:
[12:03]	Charlar Linden 	I thought the decision to limit mesh uploads to payment info on file/used was discussed and shot down a long time back during the closed beta days. Why has it returned all of a sudden as a near-certainty? (Tiberious Neruda)
[12:04]	Charlar Linden 	The steps required to become mesh enabled are not final. Our goal is to provide some small steps that will dissuade some level of infringer/griefer, and also give some information to people who may not have a good understanding of what can qualify as IP infringement. We know that the people out there who are intent will not be stopped by this; blinking car alarm lights will not stop a professional car thief.
[12:04]	arton Rotaru 	expected answer
[12:04]	Latif Khalifa 	It will cause major problems for people from some coutnries if PIOF remains a requirement
[12:04]	Latif Khalifa 	countries*'
[12:04]	Charlar Linden 	ha, I had doing the expected
[12:04]	Masami Kuramoto 	why not piof for all uploads?
[12:05]	Charlar Linden 	had = hate
[12:05]	arton Rotaru 	lol
[12:05]	Rex Cronon 	greetings
[12:05]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Hey Rex
[12:05]	Charlar Linden 	We're aware of PIOF and non-us issues
[12:05]	Charlar Linden 	ok, so moving on?
[12:05]	Rex Cronon 	hi ashasekayi
[12:05]	Artisan Gearhead 	whats PIOF?
[12:05]	Eleanora Newell 	wonders why she can hear people, but not see any
[12:06]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	payment info on file
[12:06]	arton Rotaru 	Payment Info on file
[12:06]	Kitteh Scientist 	Payment Info On File
[12:06]	Rex Cronon 	i just got here. what u mean move on?
[12:06]	arton Rotaru 	3rd
[12:06]	Artisan Gearhead 	ah, ty, ty, ty :)
[12:06]	Rex Cronon 	this is the most interesting topic:)
[12:06]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Please do Charlar
[12:06]	Latif Khalifa 	Poor Rex
[12:06]	Charlar Linden 	next item: It seems there are upload issues with specific Collada files. Namely, Collada v1.4.0 is ok, but the newer v1.4.1 files (as outputted from i.e. 3dsMax2012) show problems. (Forum post at http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/Collada-Version-Supported/m-p/923127 ). Therefore which Collada version(s), XML tags, or 3D programs are *supported* by the Second Life model importer? Supported = if it doesn't work, you will treat it as a bug in the importer. (DanielRavenNest Noe)
[12:06]	Latif Khalifa 	no mesh for you!
[12:07]	Prep Linden 	We use Collada 1.4 and are focusing support on Blender, 3D Studio, and Maya. We have blender and 3D Studio 2010 and 2011 in house,
[12:07]	Rex Cronon 	now there is 2minutes per topic?
[12:07]	Charlar Linden 	no, just didn't see anyone talking...
[12:07]	Tapple Gao 	Eletnora: maybe you need to update your viewer. the latest is 2.7.3 I believe, and can be downloaded from http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/mesh-development/rev/232686/index.html
[12:07]	Gaia Clary 	collada 1.4.0 you mean exactly, correct ?
[12:07]	Charlar Linden 	We have 15 topics, btw.
[12:07]	Charlar Linden 	so far.
[12:07]	Prep Linden 	gaiaL yes 1,4.0
[12:07]	Charlar Linden 	now 16 topics
[12:08]	arton Rotaru 	things add up like prims^^
[12:08]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	heh
[12:08]	Eleanora Newell 	2.7.3 is what i am using, but can't see anything or anyone
[12:08]	Charlar Linden 	ha
[12:08]	Tapple Gao 	well, I see you elenora
[12:08]	Eleanora Newell 	:)
[12:08]	Eleanora Newell 	at least i hear you guys and you hear me :)
[12:08]	TheBlack Box 	and you look cute as always ;)
[12:09]	Eleanora Newell 	heh
[12:09]	Charlar Linden 	next item, related:
[12:09]	Charlar Linden 	An extra complication of the above issue remains the one described at JIRA CTS-603 which particularly seems to hit Maya users, even when the collada output is 1.4.0 (Maya 2011 with FBX 2011.x), due to the way the materials are handled with it. The viewer still ignores material names but sticks to the order that they are written in each LOD Collada file, resulting in jumbled materials. (Angel Alphaville)
[12:09]	Prep Linden 	That's a bug and should be fixed this sprint.
[12:09]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	easily reproducible too
[12:09]	Drongle McMahon 	Prep....will that affect Blender too?
[12:10]	Drongle McMahon 	...using the names instead of the triangle list order?
[12:10]	arton Rotaru 	don't talk about triangles ^^
[12:10]	arton Rotaru 	I had nightmares of triangles^^
[12:11]	Tapple Gao 	I eat triangles for lunch
[12:11]	arton Rotaru 	I have a lot of them^^
[12:11]	Drongle McMahon 	Oh yes....if we can only have one triangle, there won't be any materialo problems.
[12:11]	Nyx Linden 	I'm not sure which packages are affected, but its a bug in how we interpret the collada file, so its important for us to fix it :)
[12:11]	Tapple Gao 	triangles and salsa. yum
[12:12]	arton Rotaru 	McTrianles
[12:12]	arton Rotaru 	+g
[12:12]	Gaia Clary 	Nyx, what 3D tool do you use for internal testing ?
[12:12]	Prep Linden 	Blender and max 2010 and 2011
[12:12]	Charlar Linden 	a littel sketchup
[12:12]	Gaia Clary 	which blender
[12:12]	Nyx Linden 	we have a range of test collada files from a variety of sources
[12:12]	arton Rotaru 	blender 2.49 only?
[12:12]	Drongle McMahon 	OK. That will breakmy collada files, but I suppose it's the right way :-(
[12:12]	Prep Linden 	gaia : i uise 2.49b
[12:12]	Prep Linden 	*use
[12:12]	Nyx Linden 	more test content is always appreciated :)
[12:13]	Prep Linden 	+100
[12:13]	Charlar Linden 	+1000
[12:13]	Jennifur Vultee 	I was getting scrambled textures with opencollada but when I switched to the official autodesk 3DS Max 8 FBX plugin that fixed it
[12:13]	arton Rotaru 	takes some time to readjust the LODs to the new accounting
[12:13]	arton Rotaru 	so be patient lindens
[12:13]	Jennifur Vultee 	but that was last year
[12:13]	Drongle McMahon 	But we keep having to make the same content over and over again.
[12:13]	arton Rotaru 	and push release a month back
[12:13]	Charlar Linden 	let's throw in the next agenda item:
[12:13]	Charlar Linden 	To expand on the above issues, the proper question is not whether we should waste time with specific programs (as put in the forum), but whether the 3D builder demographics are restricted strictly to Blender users or not. "Blender" is the most frequently written word in the forum as if it's the start and end of 3D software (which is not the case). (Angel Alphaville)
[12:13]	Prep Linden 	No, support for 3D Studio and Maya is very valuable, but blender is the most often used program in the beta so it's the most likely to work. As a workaround until we resolve 3D Studio and Maya compatibility issues, you can export to .obj or similar, import to Blender, and export to Collada.
[12:14]	Jennifur Vultee 	o.0
[12:14]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	mind you, anything with FBX 2012.x is problematic as it seems
[12:14]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	so try to reproduce the problem with FBX 2011.x exporter
[12:15]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	And yet, pivots work for Maya not Blender. So, obviously no one program is getting all the love.
[12:15]	arton Rotaru 	are they working in Maya?
[12:15]	Tapple Gao 	what are pivots?
[12:15]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	the essence of the question is of course, that there are many that simpy will not learn other programs except the ones they have incested in
[12:15]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	At first they were
[12:15]	Masami Kuramoto 	lol
[12:15]	Jennifur Vultee 	I tried exporting through blender in the closede beta...I couldn't figure it out
[12:15]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	invested, sorry
[12:15]	Ann Otoole 	incested in? kinkeh
[12:15]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	lol
[12:15]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	yeah kinky syntax error
[12:16]	Gaia Clary 	where can i find information about pivots ? maybe i can take a look into the collada exporter ;-) i did that once
[12:16]	Ann Otoole 	game of thrones! lannisters!
[12:16]	Eata Kitty 	Spoilers >:O
[12:16]	Rex Cronon 	from what i understant pivots r points of rotation defined by user for a mesh
[12:16]	Charlar Linden 	ok, moving on to the next topic:
[12:16]	Charlar Linden 	Please update us on offset pivots, AssetPivot and potential use of <geometry> origin. [Drongle McMahon]
[12:16]	Gaia Clary 	rex, thanks.
[12:16]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	( chat lag )
[12:16]	Rex Cronon 	np:)
[12:17]	arton Rotaru 	I was able to upload a custom pivot using an .slm file
[12:17]	Prep Linden 	We still have this in our queue, but it's unlikely that it'll be ready for the initial release.
[12:17]	arton Rotaru 	but not with a new created dae
[12:17]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	:(((
[12:17]	Drongle McMahon 	:-(((((((
[12:17]	Ann Otoole 	awwww people cryin :(
[12:18]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	/me wishes she had her sad kitty ears now.
[12:18]	arton Rotaru 	scripts can help
[12:18]	TheBlack Box 	8'-O
[12:18]	Gearsawe Stonecutter 	/me is hopeful
[12:18]	Drongle McMahon 	I think that would be cworth a delay.
[12:18]	Tapple Gao 	what is a pivot? new joints? rotating the avatar joints to match the dae skeleton?
[12:18]	arton Rotaru 	true drongle
[12:18]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Yes, I know. I just didn't want to go the script route.
[12:18]	arton Rotaru 	no, think of a door
[12:18]	Drongle McMahon 	Exactly Arton ... there will be expensive work-arounds
[12:18]	arton Rotaru 	that rotates on the edge
[12:19]	arton Rotaru 	like pathcut doors today
[12:19]	TheBlack Box 	think "center of rotation"
[12:19]	Ann Otoole 	yea would be nice. but how many delays are tolerable?
[12:19]	arton Rotaru 	puppeteer animals will miss it too
[12:19]	Drongle McMahon 	Or ma gallery doors :-)
[12:19]	Drongle McMahon 	ma=my
[12:19]	Ann Otoole 	jira? watchers?
[12:19]	Drongle McMahon 	None Anee, I suspect.
[12:20]	Tapple Gao 	oh. is center of rotation always the center of the mesh, and not the origin in the dae file?
[12:20]	arton Rotaru 	yup
[12:20]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Yes, that is teh problem.
[12:20]	Charlar Linden 	Ok, that seems to be wrapping. Shall we move on?
[12:20]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	*the
[12:20]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Sure
[12:20]	Charlar Linden 	next item:
[12:20]	Charlar Linden 	Is it still true that a vertex can be assigned to a max of 4 groups? [Ashasekayi Ra]
[12:20]	Prep Linden 	Tapple: yes. pivot points allows you to define the origin for the dae.
[12:20]	Drongle McMahon 	Anne .... CTS-496
[12:21]	Prep Linden 	There is a max of 4 joint influences per vertex at present. This may change in the future, but for now that is the limit. Note that this is double the number of influences per vertex for the default avatar mesh.
[12:21]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Ok thanks. I was just making sure.
[12:21]	Rex Cronon 	what is your definition for "influence"?
[12:22]	Gaia Clary 	is that tested on the importer and ,eshes with more assigned groups get rejected ?
[12:22]	Prep Linden 	influence = weighted.
[12:22]	Gaia Clary 	or are the influences silently dropped ?
[12:22]	TheBlack Box 	or does the viewer juist crash ? :)
[12:22]	Gearsawe Stonecutter 	ah not smoothing groups
[12:23]	Gaia Clary 	so it makes sense to enhance the mesh checker tool for blender ... ?
[12:23]	Drongle McMahon 	Or you get tomlook like Tapple?
[12:23]	Prep Linden 	gaia: I added code to the importer that checks to make sure that all vertices are weighted.
[12:23]	Gaia Clary 	yes, i saw. but now you also say that if a vertex is assigned to more than 4 groups...
[12:24]	Gaia Clary 	what happens if a vertex IS assigned to more than groups ?
[12:24]	Eata Kitty 	It explodes
[12:24]	arton Rotaru 	yeah
[12:24]	Prep Linden 	There was a problem where if a vert came in unweighted that it would render incorrectly and sometimes crash.ted that the render
[12:24]	Tapple Gao 	all vertices must be weighted? hmm. could be useful to have a part that just held still at the bounding box origin
[12:25]	Gaia Clary 	tapple, then weight them to zero....
[12:25]	Prep Linden 	gaia: groups aren't correctly checked.
[12:25]	Gaia Clary 	the problem was that some verts where not included in AMY group
[12:25]	Prep Linden 	tapple: make them 0.
[12:25]	arton Rotaru 	like prim count^^
[12:25]	Tapple Gao 	k
[12:25]	Gaia Clary 	but what happens when a vertex is assigned to more than 4 groups ????
[12:26]	Tapple Gao 	would that be the cause of the error I'm seeing on an uploaded mesh? expected: 4382 vertices, got 4377
[12:26]	Gaia Clary 	tapple, i think so you have verts which are not assigend...
[12:26]	Gearsawe Stonecutter 	sound like it jsut ingores the 5th and above?
[12:27]	Gaia Clary 	it still would be interesting t know which 4 are used ;-)
[12:27]	Eata Kitty 	If they say there is a max of four why would you try five... it's not supported...
[12:28]	Gaia Clary 	the weight tools might just do that Eata.
[12:28]	Eata Kitty 	I assume it gives a warning on upload
[12:28]	Prep Linden 	gaia: do you have an asset that is assigned to more then 4 groups - as I'm not sure what would happen.
[12:28]	Gaia Clary 	hah!
[12:28]	Gaia Clary 	ill make one ;-)
[12:28]	Prep Linden 	thanks!
[12:28]	Charlar Linden 	OK, next item:
[12:28]	Charlar Linden 	I'm still having an issue with the uploader closing the opening on an arch when Step 1: Analysis and Step 2: Simplification are used. http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/Physics-Uploader-Closing-Holes/td-p/924041 So, do I need to use Step 1 and Step 2 if the physics mesh that I created is low poly to begin with? (In this arch example, the physics mesh had 16 triangles.) Does the hull generated after Step 1 and 2 somehow make the physics shape more efficient? [Ashasekayi Ra]
[12:29]	Nyx Linden 	If your physics mesh is only 16 triangles and the object will have a reasonable size (at least, say, a couple meters on an edge), there's not necessarily a need to decompose. However, decomposing should work. If you can file a jira with the .dae attached, I can have a look. My guess is that you just need to set the "Detail Scale" to a smaller value than it currently allow. We're hoping to fix the scaling on that slider soon which will make this easier to deal with.
[12:29]	Nyx Linden 	so if you haven't given us the DAE file please do so :)
[12:29]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Sure I can send you the file.
[12:29]	arton Rotaru 	sounds good
[12:30]	Charlar Linden 	then let's keep moving
[12:30]	Charlar Linden 	next:
[12:30]	Charlar Linden 	If I wanted to get the most accurate idea of how many prims a mesh object converts to, do I look at the "selection streaming cost" number under "Show Render Info"? [Ashasekayi Ra]
[12:30]	arton Rotaru 	Now my both comes into play^^
[12:30]	arton Rotaru 	booth*
[12:30]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	/me snorts
[12:31]	Monster LagGroup (eddi.decosta)	hi there sorry, this interupt
[12:31]	Nyx Linden 	Show render info. Note that this equation is far from finalized. If you have a mesh that has an inappropriately high or low prim cost, drop it on Runitai Linden.
[12:31]	Bellahyae Enchanted 	i was wondering the answer to that question myself
[12:31]	Monster LagGroup (eddi.decosta)	/me poke Nyx ㋡
[12:31]	arton Rotaru 	don't drop to low
[12:31]	arton Rotaru 	lol
[12:31]	arton Rotaru 	I wish I had such
[12:32]	Drongle McMahon 	Runitai will get buried!!!
[12:32]	Latif Khalifa 	lol
[12:32]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	lol
[12:32]	Tapple Gao 	I heard every mesh was too expensive
[12:32]	Charlar Linden 	please do
[12:32]	Nyx Linden 	too much test content is a problem we'd love to have :D
[12:32]	Charlar Linden 	next item:
[12:32]	Charlar Linden 	Can you please update us on recent progress and tell us what your current priorities are? [Vivienne Daguerre]
[12:32]	Eata Kitty 	What happened to the nice bit that told you the vert count of your selection, is that third line up where it says KTris the same thing
[12:32]	arton Rotaru 	as I said before, we need some time to adjust our meshes
[12:32]	Nyx Linden 	and we need some time to adjust our formulas :D
[12:33]	arton Rotaru 	adds up
[12:33]	Charlar Linden 	that's our current priority
[12:33]	Nyx Linden 	recent progress: we rolled out the new asset format!
[12:33]	arton Rotaru 	like prims
[12:33]	Nyx Linden 	make sure you update your viewers and re-upload your content!
[12:33]	Drongle McMahon 	You also broke some of my sculpties!
[12:33]	Gaia Clary 	so all sandboxes are updated now ?
[12:33]	Nyx Linden 	if you get any failed uploads, file a jira and attach the collada files
[12:33]	Nyx Linden 	all sandboxes should be updated.
[12:33]	Latif Khalifa 	Nyx, does viewer crash count as failed upload? :P
[12:34]	arton Rotaru 	can we have one sandbox with the old format
[12:34]	Gaia Clary 	is this the currently newest viewer: http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/mesh-development/latest.html
[12:34]	Charlar Linden 	just because we're already talking about it:
[12:34]	Charlar Linden 	Is there anything in particular you need us to focus our testing on? [Vivienne Daguerre]
[12:34]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Getting to the right viewer from the wiki page seems to be aproblem
[12:34]	arton Rotaru 	to rezz old meshes to pull out scripts?
[12:34]	Nyx Linden 	Latif: for this purpose yes :)
[12:34]	Dahlia Trimble 	are all regions working with the new format?
[12:34]	Dahlia Trimble 	on aditi?
[12:34]	Latif Khalifa 	I have a couple of .dae that do that reliably
[12:34]	Nyx Linden 	all regions should be on the new format
[12:34]	Nyx Linden 	what would help us most: Build LOTS of content and leave it out in the sandboxes.
[12:34]	Drongle McMahon 	Yes...lots of newcommers pick up the Feruary viewer
[12:34]	Artisan Gearhead 	is this the right viewer? Second Life 2.7.3 (232686)
[12:35]	Gaia Clary 	i see 232686 is out ...
[12:35]	TheBlack Box 	Second Life 2.7.3 (232686) Jun 11 2011 22:23:19 (Project Viewer - Mesh) ... yes i think is the recent one
[12:35]	Gearsawe Stonecutter 	I was able to rez in some old non mesh sim then do an area select to select the invisble object
[12:35]	Nyx Linden 	the more content in-world there is the better we can make our cost algorithms
[12:35]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	232749
[12:35]	arton Rotaru 	hey ok cool, I'll try that gearsawe
[12:36]	Gaia Clary 	thats what i meant ... umm grabbed the wrong line
[12:36]	Drongle McMahon 	Nytx, when you borrow our content, can you get the lod triangle counts from it?
[12:36]	Eata Kitty 	The wiki needs to make it a bit more obvious where to find the development viewer, the information is there but it still talks about the old stable build which was removed
[12:36]	Nyx Linden 	we can definitely get the filesize of each LOD which is a decent approximation of triangle count. We can read triangle count if we download each LOD
[12:36]	Artisan Gearhead 	yes I upgraded an hour ago and had a hard time finding the viewer
[12:36]	Nyx Linden 	we should have removed the old stable build. If its still there we'll clean that up :)
[12:36]	Ann Otoole 	yup. stuff uploaded in MAD works here
[12:37]	Gaia Clary 	i think we could clean up the wiki by ourself ?
[12:37]	Kayleigh McMillan 	same here hard to find the latest viewer
[12:37]	Ann Otoole 	these which viewer questions are agenda item #16 btw
[12:37]	Vivienne Daguerre 	Good. I am concerned about the streaming cost being the end prim cost. For example, this table shows as 4 prims, which is acceptable. The streaming cost is 11. That would not be. If 11 is the final number, I will remake it using sculpties.
[12:37]	Charlar Linden 	we'll look into how to make it more obvious
[12:37]	Vivienne Daguerre 	in the end, people care about the prim count, and we will not be able to teach them any different.
[12:38]	Ann Otoole 	yea we will when they want to upload and it costs L$1000 lmao
[12:38]	Vivienne Daguerre 	The cooking hearth shows as 14 prims, which I think is great. The streaming cost is 29 prims, which is not so great.
[12:38]	Drongle McMahon 	Vivienne.... and that's small. Iy gets much worse for bigger meshes, irrespective of lower vLODs
[12:38]	Vivienne Daguerre 	nods
[12:39]	Vivienne Daguerre 	mesh is nicer, I prefer mesh, but I have to make what my customers will buy
[12:39]	Gearsawe Stonecutter 	and script will not increase cost???
[12:39]	Latif Khalifa 	yeah, scale really makes mesh too expensive
[12:39]	arton Rotaru 	that's horrible, that the lowest LOD is ignored for meshes > 5m
[12:39]	Drongle McMahon 	Nyx....please make sure your test use some big mesh onjects.
[12:39]	arton Rotaru 	lowest LOD will kick in on those early enough
[12:39]	Charlar Linden 	ok, we should keep going...
[12:39]	Nyx Linden 	Drongle: leave some big mesh objects rezzed in the mesh regions so we can see them :)
[12:39]	Gaia Clary 	Drongles jira gives a cool solution to the big meshes cost much problem...
[12:40]	Charlar Linden 	In the recent and current mesh viewer, when I enable lighting and shadow my screen goes black. I can see things like the minimap and hovertext above my avatar, but HUD textures are messed up. I am using 2 ATI 5870 video cards in my Alienware laptop. Anyone else having this problem? The development viewer works just fine for me. Should I file a jira or are you aware of this issue? [Vivienne Daguerre]
[12:40]	Drongle McMahon 	Mesh City, Nyx
[12:40]	Nyx Linden 	Please file a jira. We'll dig into this soon :)
[12:40]	Nyx Linden 	Drongle: yep we're going to keep an eye on mesh city
[12:40]	Charlar Linden 	this one too:
[12:40]	Charlar Linden 	the black screen appears on my screen also when i set full screen (30). When i make it smaller, the scene reappears. [Gaia]
[12:40]	Vivienne Daguerre 	I will file a jira then on my black screen problem
[12:40]	Nyx Linden 	thanks!
[12:41]	Vivienne Daguerre 	Even when I am not in full window, I get the black screen when I enable light and shadow
[12:41]	Gaia Clary 	vivienne i can comment then on your jira, maybe that makes more sense than create 2 separate ones ?
[12:41]	Tapple Gao 	how do you get rez permission to mesh city?
[12:41]	Charlar Linden 	ok, next one:
[12:41]	Charlar Linden 	Why are slm files binary ? And does it make sense to get a generateable XML file instead to prepare for easy (scripted) support from 3D editors? See [CTS-634]﻿ [Gaia]
[12:41]	Vivienne Daguerre 	if you would like to file Gaia, I can comment on yours
[12:41]	Latif Khalifa 	bribe nyx with some wd-40 :P
[12:41]	Vivienne Daguerre 	I have not had much experience with jiras
[12:42]	Gaia Clary 	i can do it
[12:42]	Tapple Gao 	what is a slm file?
[12:42]	Gearsawe Stonecutter 	Right now on low prim item if you add a script to them the prim cost goes up this does not make much sense.
[12:42]	Vivienne Daguerre 	/me smiles...
[12:42]	Vivienne Daguerre 	thank you
[12:42]	Nyx Linden 	they're binary because its easier to store pre-computed values for the various pieces (physics) than to store the parameters that generate them
[12:42]	Dahlia Trimble 	I tried to upload in mesh city the other day and the dialogs looked like it was letting me do it but nothing ever showed up in my inventory
[12:42]	Nyx Linden 	Gearsawe: please add separate topics to the agenda :)
[12:42]	Gaia Clary 	but it would be realy awesome to have the possibility to generate them...
[12:42]	Object 	Hello, Avatar!
[12:43]	Nyx Linden 	Dahlia - sounds like a silent failure. Please file a jira. We hope to have better error reporting soon
[12:43]	Latif Khalifa 	Dahlia, you have to watch debug console in the viewer, as there is no notification when mesh fails
[12:43]	Dahlia Trimble 	Hello Object!
[12:43]	Charlar Linden 	ok, several more to go...
[12:43]	Charlar Linden 	Is there documentation in laymen's terms yet? [Eleanora Newell]
[12:43]	Gaia Clary 	is your answer: they keep binary and no XML input will ever be supported ?
[12:44]	Nyx Linden 	Gaia: that would be a feature request, probably not for initial release.
[12:44]	Tapple Gao 	what is slm file?
[12:44]	Gaia Clary 	well, it is a feature request... ;-)
[12:44]	Nyx Linden 	all feature requests should have JIRA issues associated with them :D
[12:45]	Gaia Clary 	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/CTS-634
[12:45]	Gaia Clary 	;-)
[12:45]	Charlar Linden 	we're working on documentation that will be more oriented toward artists than engineers, but I think we're going to lean on our expert users (you all) for tutorials and like. We're not going to get too involved in the point where the pipeline hits the the 3d program.
[12:45]	Charlar Linden 	Too many variables at that point
[12:45]	Charlar Linden 	related agenda item: Is there a repository of videos on mesh techniques? I know Gaia is working on some thngs? I am looking specifically for information on offsetting bones for avatars that are micro and not human. [Eleanora Newell]
[12:46]	Dahlia Trimble 	is there any documentation on the format of the data used to describe convex hulls in the mesh asset?
[12:46]	Bellahyae Enchanted 	will there be any links to great mesh tutorials for maya and other 3d programs givin?
[12:46]	Tapple Gao 	oh elenora. talk to me about that. I've gotten that working somewhat, as you may notice if you could see me
[12:47]	Eleanora Newell 	thanks, tapple
[12:47]	Charlar Linden 	Bellahyae - you should look to the forums, hopefully these folks will start posting links.
[12:47]	Gaia Clary 	me too please ;-) id like to know about tiny and non human avatar ,esh rigging... what is special... and where totake care and such ;-)
[12:47]	Bellahyae Enchanted 	thanks, i'll take a look *hopes* ^_^
[12:47]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	They said they will have a tutorial section for users when it is all done Bella
[12:47]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	What program do you use Bella?
[12:47]	Charlar Linden 	true
[12:48]	Bellahyae Enchanted 	i use maya 2011
[12:48]	Bellahyae Enchanted 	and thats great news. i was not sure where to go to learn it all
[12:48]	arton Rotaru 	nice proggie
[12:48]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Ah, sorry can't help with that one. But there is a maya best practice thread
[12:48]	Tapple Gao 	I've made a blend file that is able to export a rigged quad mesh and bvh files for it
[12:48]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	(don t upgrade your FBX to 2012 :B stick to FBX 2011 )
[12:48]	Charlar Linden 	OK, next?
[12:48]	TheBlack Box 	extra question (10 bonus-points for the right answer): how can i make sure the sim "Skyhighatry Designs" on main-grid is included in the first batch of mesh-test-sims ?
[12:48]	Charlar Linden 	Is there a matrix of what actually last known to be working build download works on which beta region?
[12:49]	Gaia Clary 	theblack box: file a support ticket to be added to the mesh beta server program...
[12:49]	Nyx Linden 	changes daily - any documentation we have on working combinations will probably get out of date. We're back to a single viewer repository, and the same asset format to all regions, so it should be less confusing now
[12:50]	arton Rotaru 	No more MAD viewers ^^
[12:50]	Nyx Linden 	use the latest viewer against any sandbox region and when you see combinations that break, let us know :)
[12:50]	TheBlack Box 	Gaia: thanks ... but you dont get the bonus-pont as the right answer would have been: "We will care about it dont worry: ;)
[12:50]	Charlar Linden 	next:
[12:50]	Charlar Linden 	Recently Richard Linden marked http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-2242 as "fixed" but provided no information. Is this mesh related, or do I need to bug Andrew and Simon about it tomorrow to see if they have an answer? -Stickman 12:14, 13 June 2011 (PDT)
[12:51]	Gaia Clary 	btw we already have setup "Mesh Mellows" on the main grid ;-)
[12:51]	Stickman 	Hi.
[12:51]	Charlar Linden 	Go bug them tomorrow
[12:51]	Kayleigh McMillan 	lol
[12:51]	Stickman 	Thanks. :>
[12:51]	Nyx Linden 	2242 is not related to the mesh team, so go directly to the source :)
[12:51]	Gaia Clary 	hoping to get added to the beta program too
[12:51]	Charlar Linden 	:-)
[12:51]	TheBlack Box 	:)
[12:51]	arton Rotaru 	to many happy people in here ^^
[12:52]	Charlar Linden 	and what looks like the last one...
[12:52]	Charlar Linden 	What's PRIM TEST on Mesh City 2...Can see old meshes from outside but they disappear from inside...can't delete them.[Drongle]
[12:52]	Nyx Linden 	haven't had the time to look into it yet unfortunately :/
[12:53]	Charlar Linden 	ok, that's everything on the agenda
[12:53]	arton Rotaru 	that's it?
[12:54]	Charlar Linden 	we have a few minutes left in the time alloted
[12:54]	Drongle McMahon 	You can clean my stuff out of it if you like.
[12:54]	Dahlia Trimble 	the mesh Nyx bear didnt make it on the agenda? :(
[12:54]	Latif Khalifa 	Nyx, what about removing texture coords from mesh physics?
[12:55]	Gaia Clary 	Nyx, is there anything we can do beyond trying to get added to the mesh beta server program list ? so we can have more confidence to get started early ?
[12:55]	TheBlack Box 	+1 !
[12:55]	Drongle McMahon 	You can make collada files without UV info and they upload, even as LOD meshes!. They look strange.
[12:55]	Nyx Linden 	haven't looked at it - I'm not an expert on the specifics of our asset format
[12:56]	Tapple Gao 	hmm. everything I've uploaded has no uv. I havn't tried texturing yet, obviously
[12:56]	Gearsawe Stonecutter 	just looks like an object with repeats set to 0.0
[12:56]	Drongle McMahon 	...But I suppose there are still all zeroes in the asset.
[12:56]	Ann Otoole 	interestingly i can rez a mesh from the 4 MAD regions here and fly around. But i cannot cross from MAD regions to these regions flying.
[12:56]	Latif Khalifa 	Drongle, I noticed when I uploaded mesh truck from the sample conent wiki that physics mesh also uploads UV. /methinks srubbing that off would save some streaming cost
[12:56]	Gaia Clary 	vivienne: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/CTS-636
[12:57]	Cyphien Heart 	Where can we get information on the SL avatar rig (not the mesh). Rotation point coords, axis and such?
[12:57]	Vivienne Daguerre 	I emailed Oskar Linden about getting my sims onto the release beta channels, hoping to get mesh early on roll out, and his response was that he could add me, but he thought that mesh will be rolled out to the whole grid at one time rather than in increments. Is he right, or is he just not up on your plans?
[12:57]	Dahlia Trimble 	I dont think the physics mesh gets streamed does it?
[12:57]	Charlar Linden 	Gaia, the rollout will be managed very carefully, but we're going to try to move as quickly as possible so there's little advantage to getting it at the beginning.
[12:57]	Kitteh Scientist 	.... so. i need psychiatric help. i think i m going even more crazy, i see these boomerang shapes all over. Im lil bit afraid of that giant white boomerang that keeps vawing violently
[12:57]	Latif Khalifa 	i think stream cost is grant total byte size of the mesh asset
[12:57]	Dahlia Trimble 	would be cool if it did, could do some viewer side collisions
[12:58]	Tapple Gao 	cyphen: I'd recommend copying it from the avatar.blend or simplebot.blend files on the wiki
[12:58]	Latif Khalifa 	Dahlia, it is streamed
[12:58]	Tapple Gao 	if you are using blender
[12:58]	Rex Cronon 	u just need to updated your viewer. and your graphics card, and your cpu, and motherboard...
[12:58]	arton Rotaru 	that's bad kitten
[12:58]	Charlar Linden 	Oskar is up to date - it's a semantic thing. We will be enabling mesh rather than rolling code out.
[12:58]	Rex Cronon 	:)
[12:58]	arton Rotaru 	think more of triangles
[12:58]	Cyphien Heart 	Not using blender
[12:59]	Vivienne Daguerre 	thank you
[12:59]	Tapple Gao 	maybe your program can import the simplebot.dae file then
[12:59]	Charlar Linden 	ok, wait, maybe I'm confused about the rollout. I'll check with Oskar.
[12:59]	Prep Linden 	gotta run, see you folks next week.
[12:59]	Kitteh Scientist 	couple weeks ago i saw triangles everywhere, the giant white triangle was eqally spooky
[12:59]	Tapple Gao 	with the rig
[12:59]	Rex Cronon 	tc
[12:59]	Gaia Clary 	cant you import a dae file which contains the rig to any other program ?
[12:59]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	thx
[12:59]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Later Prep
[12:59]	TheBlack Box 	take care, thans for the OH
[12:59]	Rex Cronon 	tc everybody
[12:59]	TheBlack Box 	thanks even
[12:59]	Latif Khalifa 	thank you
[13:00]	Bellahyae Enchanted 	have a good day
[13:00]	Dahlia Trimble 	ty :)
[13:00]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	the Mayans thank you
[13:00]	Tapple Gao 	collada import is buggier than export, at leasn on blender
[13:00]	arton Rotaru 	bye All, I'm late too.
[13:00]	Eleanora Newell 	thanks, everyone
[13:00]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Adios Arton
[13:00]	TheBlack Box 	i wonder if the world will end when Maya 2012 gets released
[13:00]	arton Rotaru 	be back later tonight
[13:00]	Drongle McMahon 	OK.I'm off to fill a sim with meshes....
[13:00]	Vivienne Daguerre 	Stew's ready!
[13:01]	Vivienne Daguerre 	grins
[13:01]	Tapple Gao 	where do you find a sim to fill
[13:01]	Charlar Linden 	thanks all!
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