Doc Team/2010-10-06

== Transcript ==
[13:02]	:	hey
[13:02]	:	Hi Daniel. Welcome!
[13:02]	:	/me looks around.
[13:02]	:	Not too many here this week...
[13:02]	:	:(
[13:03]	:	loads last week were here
[13:03]	:	hey Jeremy ã‹¡
[13:03]	 	has pinged you.
[13:03]	:	hey Eddi
[13:03]	:	Hi Eddi.
[13:03]	:	hi Dan how are you?
[13:04]	:	I'm good thanks.
[13:04]	:	well, im little confused with the ToS update to be honest ..
[13:04]	:	Busy at times. :p
[13:05]	:	/me isn't up to speed on the new TOS yet.
[13:05]	:	http://secondlife.com/corporate/tos.php
[13:06]	:	alot to read
[13:06]	:	well, the use of 2,x are mendatory or not realy?
[13:06]	:	Where does it say that?
[13:07]	:	i dont know i red that on some groups ..
[13:07]	:	and this thing make me confused ..
[13:07]	:	hello i apologize for being late and will move soon as something rezes ><
[13:07]	:	Hi Cummere
[13:07]	:	cause i use imprudence 1.4 , for myslef ã‹¡
[13:07]	:	hi Cummere long time no see :p
[13:08]	:	so you the last man standing jeremy?
[13:08]	 	has pinged you.
[13:08]	:	We have the Third-party Viewer list for a reason... if Imprudence is on there, I imagine it's definitely allowed.
[13:09]	:	Heh. Jon is out today, Cummere.
[13:09]	:	Jeremy yeah , i think so but the thing its the migration of some version 1.4 at the 2,x ..
[13:09]	 	has pinged you.
[13:10]	:	i prefers to wait some new dev on snowstrom to switch with an 2.x ã‹¡
[13:10]	:	/me is confused. "soemthign worng iwth having imprudence on the tvp list?
[13:10]	:	Cummere, yeah the imprudence is on the tvp ã‹¡
[13:11]	:	and?
[13:11]	:	There's nothing wrong with it being there. I'm trying to figure out why Eddi is troubled.
[13:11]	:	Jerremy , can you do a tralsnate a tvp polici in french? ^^
[13:11]	:	so far i havent seen any reason personaly it shouldnt be?
[13:11]	:	Maybe, Eddi. I think Eli Linden would handle that.
[13:12]	:	far as i know the guy that spun imprudence off from emerald took most of the questionable stuff out.
[13:12]	:	I haven't seen any reasons either, Cummere. Also, are you thinking of Phoenix?
[13:12]	:	oh http://imprudenceviewer.org/2010/10/06/bug-with-secondlife-tos-acceptation/
[13:12]	:	ther is mentioned by codie ã‹¡
[13:12]	:	phoenix is also an emerald spinoff
[13:13]	:	imprudence came BEFORE emerald died.
[13:13]	:	phoenix affter
[13:13]	:	much overlap
[13:13]	:	/me doesn't know a lot about third party viewers.
[13:13]	:	soft i think would be best to talk to?
[13:13]	:	you can have some usual function like reload l$ balance in imprudence ã‹¡
[13:14]	:	eddi i dont think that bug would keep them from being on the tvp ^^
[13:15]	:	lol didnt LL have that bug once 3 years ago?
[13:16]	:	oh Jer, i send you a textures
[13:16]	:	/me looks.
[13:16]	:	jeremy when were done discussing tvps i have a question
[13:16]	 	has pinged you.
[13:16]	:	Display Names in Imprudence, Eddi?
[13:17]	:	just on xml part for now ã‹¡
[13:17]	:	of my long work ã‹¡
[13:17]	:	Cool.
[13:17]	:	but not active yet in official source ã‹¡
[13:17]	:	Cummere, what is your question?
[13:18]	:	does the removal of everything regarding decency standards for profiles from the cs, tos, and wiki mean explicit and offensive profiles are now allowed?
[13:19]	:	such as... picttures of a woman explicitly "spreading" herself (or her avi doing the same)
[13:19]	:	or slogans like "its not rape if you yell surprise first"?
[13:19]	:	Offensive content is still offensive content. Please send abuse reports as appropriate.
[13:20]	:	people are getting off because theres no longer clear guidelines for what can be in a profile
[13:20]	:	and if i see a user; with a name like LickMy Cerise in pg zone what i do? lol
[13:21]	:	and now that we have minors on the grid
[13:21]	:	i dunno
[13:21]	:	Abuse report, Eddi.
[13:21]	:	ok thanks ã‹¡
[13:21]	:	im even kinda thinking about asking to change some of my avi names.
[13:21]	:	it was okay when adults where here. but im not so sure orgasmic or cummere are acceptable now that we have teens
[13:21]	:	No minors here yet, Cummere. Also, why do you say we actively removed guidelines for what is appropriate in a profile?
[13:22]	:	because you used to explicitly state no nudity in porfiles on the cs
[13:22]	:	as well as no sexual content, and no overly offensive cotnent.
[13:23]	:	thats been changed too (one moment while i find the only page with still a mention of it)
[13:23]	:	Cummere, I think section 5 of the CS may cover your concerns.
[13:24]	:	well i cant find it but it was a wiki page that basicallyy said no overly explicit sexual text was allowed
[13:24]	:	etc.
[13:24]	:	Second Life is an adult community, but "Adult" content, activity and communication are not permitted on the Second Life "mainland."
[13:25]	:	Heh. Chat lag. That's backward.
[13:25]	:	to be honest Jermy i hope a french ToS and CS for soon ã‹¡
[13:25]	:	i had a storeowner ban me for aring someone with a picture of hers and one of her avi's in matching spread eagle poses
[13:25]	:	and i was told because she was on an dult sim her profile was okay
[13:26]	:	its funy cause the viewer and some other help are translated in deferent lang but the tos and Cs are allways in english ã‹¡
[13:26]	:	unless im mistaken the idea of tagging profiles adult was never implemented
[13:26]	:	Hi Aarg ã‹¡
[13:26]	:	Eddi, a lot of the online help is translated by volunteers from the SL community. We don't feel comfortable allowing volunteers to translate the ToS :-)
[13:27]	:	i even get differant answers on whats allowed from differant ontynes/scouts/lindens
[13:27]	:	can we please get an explicit written set of standards for profiles again please?
[13:27]	:	yeah i know but fot that i think you need a juridic translator, cause some time i see some plaing with the tos word ã‹¡
[13:27]	:	playing*
[13:27]	:	Cummere, as a rule, we don't lay out specifics about what is "allowed" under specific policies. It allows us to make judgments on a case-by-case basis and makes it harder for people to exploit loopholes based on earlier rulings.
[13:27]	:	for& lol
[13:28]	:	ture but even so at least a general keep your profile pg rule?
[13:29]	:	there was an explicit no nudity in profiles rule until sometime in 2009 i think
[13:29]	:	I don't have the ability to make new policy, Cummere, but I can ask and see what happened.
[13:30]	:	that would be awesome
[13:30]	:	and please point out that
[13:30]	:	Hi Nanh ã‹¡
[13:30]	:	if kids came across imagess like what i saw, and a teen was able to stumble across that, LL officially and legally just exposed a child to porn
[13:30]	:	salut Eddi
[13:31]	:	Hi everyone
[13:31]	:	Jer, nanh its a great friend on sl ã‹¡
[13:31]	:	only if LL makes it their business to censor content.
[13:31]	:	that issue bit Prodigy back in the day
[13:31]	:	even if they dont aargle
[13:32]	:	nice to meet you uys
[13:32]	:	guys *
[13:32]	:	Hi Nahn. Welcome to Documentation office hours.
[13:32]	:	Documentation office !
[13:32]	:	not necessarily, Cummere. phone companies and ISPs aren't liable for the content that moves through their services even if illegal or libelous or whatever.
[13:33]	:	no but games are...
[13:33]	:	hi hi Bronson ã‹¡
[13:33]	:	and legally
[13:33]	:	sl fits the definition of a game
[13:33]	:	wha? no its a life style... err umm... game
[13:33]	:	yeah thats it a lifestyle game
[13:34]	:	still, it's a fuzzy bit of law. and if it's nude avatars, is it really porn? nudity?
[13:34]	:	/me points to black isle (now out of business cause of this issue), Atari, and Bioware that that
[13:34]	:	and yes naked toons still count as pornography
[13:34]	:	and tinies? :-)
[13:35]	:	my alt just runs around in only a necktie :-)
[13:35]	:	if they show their bits yes
[13:35]	:	well if hanna barbara suddenly added naughty bits then it would be porn
[13:35]	:	I think technically tinies don't have "naughty bits." :-)
[13:35]	:	funy ass porn but porn none the less
[13:35]	:	theres a few >.>
[13:36]	:	but national geographic is not porn
[13:37]	:	fwiw, nudity isn't necessarily porn or sexuality. as Bronson points out, despite all the nudity in Nat. Geo, it's not porn
[13:37]	:	but black isle got in trouble a while back because they dint have an age screeening system, and many of the multiplayer worlds using the neverwinter nights platform had explicit bits on the nude toons
[13:37]	:	same thing with statues in art galleries
[13:38]	:	true but when theres a presence or potential presence of sexual content (like animations, gestures, etc) it becomes such
[13:39]	:	I presume it's going to get awkward when the 16-17 y/o crowd is let in.
[13:39]	:	and a shot of enen a avatar's gaping dripping snatch? thats unlikely to pass off as "art"
[13:39]	:	not that they aren't here already
[13:39]	:	hm... or even verbal descriptions? :-D
[13:39]	:	/me had to report a teen who outed himself here last week.
[13:39]	:	wb Dan! ã‹¡
[13:39]	:	ty
[13:40]	:	what i found intresting is its easier to repot a teen on adult grid then it was to get ll to do anything about adults on the teen one
[13:41]	:	I had my teens on the teen grid... they quickly got bored there.
[13:41]	:	my niece reported 22 differant adults and only one ever got banned. she got told repeatedly "theres no adults here" one of them was her 62 year old neigbor
[13:42]	:	(who is now in jail btw)
[13:42]	:	geez
[13:43]	:	what I'm wondering about is, with the wagering on skill-based games, will that be allowed by the 16-17 y/o set
[13:43]	:	in some places, you've got to be 18 to participate in sweepstakes or the like.
[13:44]	:	sweepstakes are not skill-based, correct?
[13:44]	:	Aarg you know in some place you can have a car if you have 16 years old ã‹¡
[13:44]	:	some fo them are
[13:44]	:	those are not skill based... I just mean R/L stuff
[13:44]	:	I've seen contests you can join, but minimum age is 18 to pay to participate and win.
[13:44]	:	and I dont care what anyone says.. zyngo is gambling
[13:45]	:	zyngo would definately have to be out.
[13:45]	:	Bronson, that was never the issue. the issue is wagering on games of pure chance.
[13:45]	:	even bingo is 18+ in nearly all states
[13:45]	:	and bingo is arguablly skill based
[13:46]	:	people ask me about poker and blackjack... games that DO take skill. but the law and the TOS rules are that those are simply not allowed by their mechanism. they are specifically singled out.
[13:47]	:	but I doubt teens will be out looking for scratch tickets or gambling halls, they will be trying to find ways to get to zindra or other adult sims
[13:47]	:	and when people ask me about game design, my general advice is: if you can lose on purpose, you've probably done it right. try to deliberately lose on roulette. you can't. nor can you deliberately try to win. or even improve the ability to win. it's a game of pure chance, and a no-no around here.
[13:47]	:	LOL... yeah, Bronson, you're correct.
[13:48]	:	yeah
[13:48]	:	they arleady do
[13:48]	:	my main interest is finding out if I need to do some scripting work.
[13:48]	:	my friend murron has had to ban (and gave up reporting
[13:48]	:	lots of kids
[13:49]	:	her store is on adult lands
[13:49]	:	kids get thier parents dl and a cc and verify
[13:49]	:	at least as it stands now we have SOME protections
[13:49]	:	we wont have any when the grids merge
[13:50]	:	look waht happened to those two guys in florida and that 14 year old girl whose myspace account said she was 19?
[13:51]	:	what's going on
[13:51]	:	I heard someone mention that, but I couldn't find any news stories about that.
[13:51]	:	google it
[13:51]	:	I did
[13:52]	:	it was also linked int he first blog notice about it
[13:52]	:	what little I knew turned up way too much information unrelated
[13:53]	:	Hi Anastasio. This is documentation office hours, but it looks like we're currently discussing possible results of moving 16 and 17 year olds to the main grid.
[13:53]	:	oh sorry i'm new at this so I just teleported here randomly
[13:54]	:	Cummere, I just got a response on your question about profiles. It turns out they're covered in section 8 of the TOS. Since profiles are viewable by everyone, they are considered "General", and must follow those rules.
[13:55]	:	No worries, Anastasio. This meeting is open to everyone.
[13:55]	:	http://www.wftv.com/news/16348047/detail.html
[13:55]	:	Jeremy , honestly im worried by the french resident, on that sbuject cause i have some comment of some french griefers, all the time i CAN'T think if the french griefer have less of 18 ..
[13:55]	 	has pinged you.
[13:55]	:	geezzz ..
[13:55]	:	jeremy any chance you can get that more explicitly doccumented? both within the community and within LL itself?
[13:55]	 	has pinged you.
[13:56]	:	also may i c/p that answer so i can deliver it to all those that say "i checked with LL my profile is fine?"
[13:57]	:	If your profile and avatar name meets the guidelines for General content, it should be fine.
[13:57]	:	jeremy would the name orgasmic meet that?
[13:57]	 	has pinged you.
[13:57]	:	if not i have two avis i will need remnamed
[13:57]	:	It's not my call, Cummere. Sorry.
[13:57]	:	who should i ask?
[13:58]	:	LOL... I've heard of chocolate desserts described as "orgasmic"
[13:58]	:	/me hopes cummere is okay
[13:58]	:	I would suggest filing a support ticket about the issue.
[13:59]	:	anyways can i quote you to others about profiles must adhere to section 8?
[13:59]	:	cummere sounds like an exotic dessert
[13:59]	:	You have been online for 1 hours.
[13:59]	:	I wouldn't quote me directly, but I think section 8 of the ToS is the most applicable to adult content in profiles.
[14:00]	:	bronson cummere is a carry over from an explicit nwn server avatar i had. cummere was the name she chose for herself after always being told come here or cum here
[14:01]	:	so yeah its kinda in the grey zone
[14:01]	:	figured so
[14:01]	:	I been thinking all this time taht it sounds lime come airee
[14:01]	:	but thats just how my brain rolls
[14:02]	:	like
[14:02]	:	not lime
[14:02]	:	sounds like it might make for a good sandwich spread: "Now, presenting Cummere Mayo!"
[14:02]	:	please dont give away these alts cuase they are my hiding alts... but orgasmic rainfall and orgasmic faith i think fall too far in the grey
[14:02]	:	pfft... those sound pretty tame to me.
[14:02]	:	Cummere brand Mayo
[14:03]	:	/me gets online and see's if he can find it
[14:03]	:	Ok guys, time for me to go. Thanks for coming, everyone.
[14:03]	:	I mean, sure, a few people will get some juvenile giggle over those, but it's hardly obscene
[14:03]	:	meh im trying to get cummere mayo trademarked so no one can use it as a display name
 
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