Mesh/Archive/2012-03-12

==Agenda==
# Importing Mesh calculates triangles well but calculates vertices about five times more than it should, increasing the PME too high and also distorting textures. 
# How much do you need to simplify each lower Mesh LOD to match how much a Sculpties lower LOD is simplified? At first I thought half of the faces at each LOD, but it should be half squared, shouldn't it? Could you please enlighten me with the correct way to calculate this. [Davido Chrome]
# (redirected from Oz Linden's group) Is there any chance to get Invisiprim effect-like functionality back? [Talarus Luan]
# Did you get any further information on whether this UG will continue? Or is it to become an informal group? Nalates Urriah 12:12, 12 March 2012 (PDT)
# How did the cloudy,grey, blurry test go? Nalates Urriah
# what mesh importing files formats will be available in the future and when?
==Meeting Notes==
==Attendees List==
*Asha (ashasekayi.ra)
*CD- Cigaret (cd-.cigaret)
*Chieron Tenk (chieron.tenk)
*claudia222 Jewell (claudia222.jewell)
*√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome)
*DrFran Babcock (drfran.babcock)
*Drongle McMahon (drongle.mcmahon)
*Geenz Kitten (geenz.spad)
*Heineken (heineken)
*jr (jr4201.kruyschek)
*LeeZu (leezu.baxter)
*Martin RJ (martinrj.fayray)
*Nal (nalates.urriah)
*Nyx Linden (nyx.linden)
*Quenemue Cyberstar (quenemue.cyberstar)
*Racush (racush.cheeky)
*RobsterRawb Jaxxon (robsterrawb.jaxxon)
*davep (runitai.linden)
*Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi)
*Second Life (second.life)
*Squirrely Wrath (squirrel.wood)
*Talarus Luan (talarus.luan)
*Vir Linden (vir.linden)
*Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)
==Transcript for Monday March 12, 2012==
[12:01]	Nyx Linden 	greetings all
[12:01]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	hello
[12:01]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Hi
[12:01]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	hi Nyx
[12:01]	Chieron Tenk 	hi runitai, nyx
[12:01]	Racush (racush.cheeky) 	hi Nyx
[12:01]	Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi)	Hey Nyx.
[12:01]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Told ya, they allways come on the dot!
[12:01]	Quenemue Cyberstar 	hey there
[12:01]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Hello Nyx!
[12:01]	DrFran Babcock 	hello all. At work, so will sit and "listen"
[12:01]	Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi)	I did say Nyx was coming. xP
[12:01]	LeeZu (leezu.baxter) 	Hiya
[12:01]	Nyx Linden 	agenda is here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group
[12:02]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Hello Runitai!
[12:02]	Nyx Linden 	feel free to add more topics :)
[12:03]	Squirrely Wrath (squirrel.wood) 	=> I doubt you'd find a topic of "nuts" acceptable:p
[12:03]	Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi)	... o_O
[12:03]	Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi)	Moving chair and table...
[12:03]	Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi)	/me has seen everything
[12:03]	Nyx Linden 	what kind? peanuts? cashews? walnuts? lindens?
[12:03]	Talarus Luan 	Mmmm Topic Nuts
[12:04]	Squirrely Wrath (squirrel.wood) 	hehe
[12:04]	Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi)	lol @ lindens.
[12:04]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	Lindens, please
[12:04]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	lol
[12:04]	Talarus Luan 	Linden Nuts
[12:04]	Nyx Linden 	shall we get started?
[12:04]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	sure
[12:04]	Nyx Linden 	first topic: "Importing Mesh calculates triangles well but calculates vertices about five times more than it should, increasing the PME too high and also distorting textures. "
[12:04]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	true
[12:04]	davep (runitai.linden) 	this forum post sums it up nicely:
[12:04]	davep (runitai.linden) 	http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/Two-different-vertices-count/td-p/1066523
[12:04]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	i found that about month or month and half ago
[12:05]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Isn't it how the engine keeps track of material edges?
[12:05]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	at the time i didn`t paid much attention
[12:05]	davep (runitai.linden) 	yup
[12:05]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	but now it keeps going on
[12:05]	davep (runitai.linden) 	basically -- if one "vertex" has multiple normals or texture coordinates, it's more than one vertex
[12:06]	Second Life 	Now leaving god mode, level 150
[12:06]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	i uploaded a converted sculpt 32x32 yesteday for test and gave me 1.2 PME
[12:06]	davep (runitai.linden) 	PME?
[12:07]	davep (runitai.linden) 	prim equivalent?
[12:07]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	and here is how i first founded: i uploaded a car door all right, then i uploaded teh same car door mirrored and it was 8 times prim count higher
[12:07]	davep (runitai.linden) 	ok, that might be a bug
[12:07]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	PME =estimated prim count, i think, Runitai
[12:07]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	yes, but is a bug that is going on for too much time
[12:08]	davep (runitai.linden) 	the mirrored version should be the same cost all else being equal
[12:08]	davep (runitai.linden) 	if you could open a jira and include sample content, that would be very helpful
[12:08]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	i don`t want a jeep i am building for my client that should be about 27 sculpties equivalent in vertices to have about 117 PME
[12:08]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	How did you mirror it? Could the surfaces have normals on both sides?
[12:08]	Drongle McMahon 	Have you got the doors here to show us?
[12:09]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	the normals were fine, i mirrored, frozen transforms and then frozen all
[12:09]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	the vertices were right the same
[12:09]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	when i model i can see the geometry info
[12:09]	Nyx Linden 	definitely get us both versions of the dae file so we can take a closer look at what's going on
[12:09]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	and i used to uplaod with that info matching ijn SL
[12:10]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	i had it in Beta
[12:10]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	i just uploaded two in Agni
[12:10]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	in beta i deleted it
[12:10]	davep (runitai.linden) 	can I have a copy of the doors?
[12:11]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	but it was a matter of a couple of minutes between normal count and huge count
[12:11]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	so, the number of triangles atm is still accurate
[12:11]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	not even one more or less
[12:11]	Nyx Linden 	get dave or I a copy of the doors and file a jira and we'll get on it - great to have an easy repro case :)
[12:11]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "How much do you need to simplify each lower Mesh LOD to match how much a Sculpties lower LOD is simplified? At first I thought half of the faces at each LOD, but it should be half squared, shouldn't it? Could you please enlighten me with the correct way to calculate this. [Davido Chrome] "
[12:11]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	but the vertices go about 5 times higher
[12:12]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	i can give you two copies i have of a test i did uploading in only one dae the entire vehicule
[12:12]	davep (runitai.linden) 	/me takes a look at the code to answer that one.
[12:13]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	a normal and a reduced lod version
[12:13]	Drongle McMahon 	Sculpties go down 4x per step until they are 4x4 vertices.
[12:13]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	/me waves to all
[12:14]	davep (runitai.linden) 	apparently it's more complicated than that now
[12:14]	Drongle McMahon 	Oh dear.
[12:14]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	that version hasn`t the final UVW maps set
[12:14]	Squirrely Wrath (squirrel.wood) 	so basically just llFrand until you get an acceptable number ? :p
[12:14]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	i`ll give RL pics too
[12:15]	Drongle McMahon 	If it isn't exactly that, it will destroy a lot of sculpties.
[12:15]	davep (runitai.linden) 	there's a funny function in llvolume.cpp, let me get a link
[12:15]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Hmm. This information should be readily available somewhere, or the fear that Mesh will increase the system requirements of SL might prove to be well founded.
[12:15]	Geenz Kitten (geenz.spad) 	8D
[12:15]	Nyx Linden 	keep in mind not all sculpt maps are square anymore ;) dave's getting the code up, just a sec
[12:16]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Oki. Put it in chat, and I will pull it from the transcript at a later time and pass it on as a forum post.
[12:16]	Squirrely Wrath (squirrel.wood) 	unsquare sculptmaps.... not by dave brubeck :p
[12:16]	davep (runitai.linden) 	https://bitbucket.org/lindenlab/viewer-release/src/9fb311c59479/indra/llmath/llvolume.cpp#cl-3068
[12:16]	Drongle McMahon 	Yes. if you have a 256x4, it (used to) go to 64x4, 16x4, 4x4
[12:17]	davep (runitai.linden) 	there's a pow in there
[12:17]	Drongle McMahon 	It gets messy if the ratio of dimensions is not a power of 4 though.
[12:18]	davep (runitai.linden) 	probably the easiest thing to do is use the render info display to get a triangle count of your selection
[12:18]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Wow, that's gonna take me a while to figure out how to read correctly...
[12:18]	davep (runitai.linden) 	and zoom out to see what the count is for different LoDs
[12:18]	davep (runitai.linden) 	develop->show info->show render info
[12:18]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Ok. I'll try that first then.
[12:19]	davep (runitai.linden) 	one of the lines near the bottom shows the triangle count of your selection, or the region if you have nothing selected
[12:19]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	It should work buy just lowering the LODs in the settings too, no?
[12:19]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	(No need to zoom out.)
[12:20]	davep (runitai.linden) 	whatever your style is -- I prefer zooming out to fiddling settings
[12:20]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "(redirected from Oz Linden's group) Is there any chance to get Invisiprim effect-like functionality back? [Talarus Luan] "
[12:21]	Talarus Luan 	I asked in the Viewer dev meeting twice, and they ended up referring me here. :P
[12:21]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Ok. Ktris? It displays it in thousands?
[12:21]	Squirrely Wrath (squirrel.wood) 	alpha layer does it?
[12:21]	Nyx Linden 	specifically what effect are you trying to get?
[12:21]	Talarus Luan 	The effect thatwas broken is shiny on invisiprims
[12:21]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Kilo-Tris?
[12:21]	davep (runitai.linden) 	AlveKatt: yeah, but that's a decimal, not a comma
[12:21]	Geenz Kitten (geenz.spad) 	saw that one coming :o
[12:21]	LeeZu (leezu.baxter) 	if you create one arm tops the alpha layer doesnt really make sence
[12:22]	Talarus Luan 	The deferred rendering change eliminated it.
[12:22]	Talarus Luan 	But a number of builds and avatars make use of it for some pretty nifty effects.
[12:22]	Nyx Linden 	what specific effect are you trying to get?
[12:23]	Talarus Luan 	I realize that invisiprims aren't likely to come back, and I am not asking for them to, but the effect could be added back in.
[12:23]	Geenz Kitten (geenz.spad) 	he's basically wanting shiny on alpha prims
[12:23]	Geenz Kitten (geenz.spad) 	which would be kinda handy
[12:23]	LeeZu (leezu.baxter) 	for mesh tops with one arm only invisbile prims would suit the aim to hide only one arm...you cant hide only arm arm with alpha layers
[12:24]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	I have seen some damn nice cellshaded avatars, where all that was visible was the cell shading. The rest was transparant. Real cool.
[12:24]	Drongle McMahon 	Here is a thread that has a table of the effects of LOD reductions on oblong sculptmaps.....when they were first introduced. It was worked out from the source code. http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/Mesh-Vs-Sculptie/m-p/1000133#M4084
[12:24]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Ooh, nice!
[12:25]	Geenz Kitten (geenz.spad) 	however, I don't really see shiny on alpha working quite well if shiny were simply applied on existing content that has transparency
[12:25]	Talarus Luan 	I am wearing the chest piece of one of the avatars right now.
[12:25]	davep (runitai.linden) 	while shiny transparencies is technically possible, there are no plans to work on that at this time
[12:25]	Talarus Luan 	If you turn off shaders down to basic, I think, it will sorta show back up
[12:26]	Talarus Luan 	Now it is just transparent.
[12:26]	Geenz Kitten (geenz.spad) 	since right now, the general expectation is "it's broken"
[12:26]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	one more thing, Nyx and Davep, that jeeps versions i gave you were uploaded with dae 1.41, last night i realized the problem and runned tests with dae 1.40 but the vertices counting problem still is the same, just the textures fit better now
[12:26]	Heineken 	whispers: Drink up!
[12:26]	CD- Cigaret 	whispers: Just what you needed! A relaxing puff!
[12:26]	Talarus Luan 	Well, is there some kind of list we can add it to as a feature request?
[12:27]	Talarus Luan 	There's a JIRA for it
[12:27]	Geenz Kitten (geenz.spad) 	JIRA :P
[12:27]	davep (runitai.linden) 	Talarus: it's already on the list
[12:27]	Talarus Luan 	OK.
[12:27]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	the date of the errors start should be the same date or around the ones of the creation of does two jeep versions
[12:28]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Weird Tal, I zoom in on u with LOW graphics and your chest goes transparent, zoom out black,
[12:28]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	should i also create a JIRA for the vertices counting errors?
[12:28]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "Did you get any further information on whether this UG will continue? Or is it to become an informal group? Nalates Urriah 12:12, 12 March 2012 (PDT)"
[12:29]	Geenz Kitten (geenz.spad) 	that would probably be advisable jr
[12:29]	Talarus Luan 	Yeah, I know, it's really borked now. Kills the value of the av
[12:29]	Nyx Linden 	we're not quite ready to make an announcement as to how we will be handling these meetings in the future. stay tuned!
[12:29]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	k
[12:29]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "How did the cloudy,grey, blurry test go? Nalates Urriah"
[12:30]	Nyx Linden 	still ongoing! there are a lot of moving pieces to avatar loading and plenty of places for things to go wrong
[12:30]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Did you get enough logs with the test viewre to help?
[12:30]	Nyx Linden 	keep sending in log files if you're using the runway viewer and notice issues with your avatar loading
[12:30]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	k
[12:30]	Nyx Linden 	every log file helps, feel free to send in more :)
[12:31]	Nyx Linden 	you can attach them to a jira or email me directly. I can get the link to the runway viewer if it would help
[12:31]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	There is this weird thing where prim eyes tend to bulge out now and then when you change outfit.
[12:32]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	What's the link again?
[12:32]	Talarus Luan 	yup, that's a long-time bug with shapes
[12:32]	Talarus Luan 	Various prim pieces don't accurately attach or the shape doesn't accurately load
[12:32]	Talarus Luan 	If you change in someone else's view.
[12:32]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Happens especially often with this avatar, so I am guessing it's the neck deformer.
[12:32]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	its in here: http://blog.nalates.net/2012/03/06/sl-clouds-grey-and-blurry-avatars/
[12:32]	Drongle McMahon 	Ah, davep...that looks like my favourite bug, random uv maps if you don't specify one. That could put up the vertex count by making the faces lots of unconnected islands.
[12:33]	Vir Linden 	Re: latest build, try automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/runway/latest.html
[12:33]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	u beat me to it Vir
[12:33]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Thanks
[12:33]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	How come it's specific to if you change within someone elses view?
[12:33]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	i just added one more topic and is still in time :)
[12:34]	Nyx Linden 	thanks everyone who sends in log files :)
[12:34]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "what mesh importing files formats will be available in the future and when?"
[12:34]	Talarus Luan 	No, I mean, other people see it wrong often when you see it right.
[12:35]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Nyx, never done that. Is there a wiki that specifies what you want and where to find it?
[12:35]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Aaah.
[12:35]	Nyx Linden 	collada seems to work for most software packages for now, but the import code is open source, so any third party devs that want to extend it to accept other formats, feel free to go ahead :)
[12:36]	Nyx Linden 	davido - trying to hunt down avatar appearance failures. If you see them, please send me your log along with a description of what went wrong
[12:36]	Talarus Luan 	Which log?
[12:36]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Ah. Gotcha
[12:36]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	the problem is that many RL 3D new software versions already don`t export DAE 1.40 but DAE 1.41 instead and that messes the faces for texturing
[12:36]	Nyx Linden 	Secondlife.log
[12:36]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	among other problems
[12:36]	Talarus Luan 	Do we need to turn on any specific options to generate it?
[12:37]	Nyx Linden 	nope, just run the runway viewer we linked above
[12:37]	Nyx Linden 	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Debug_Help#Where_do_I_find_my_SecondLife.log_file.3F
[12:37]	Nyx Linden 	it gets generated every time you run the viewer, so make sure you grab it before relogging
[12:37]	Talarus Luan 	Oh. OK. So, test the appearance issues in the new viewer, then?
[12:37]	Nyx Linden 	yes please!
[12:37]	Talarus Luan 	k
[12:38]	Nyx Linden 	and with that we're out of topics
[12:38]	Talarus Luan 	I have one agenda item I can add.
[12:38]	Talarus Luan 	Just curious if/when we will get custom rigging/ armatures for mesh avs
[12:38]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Would I have to compile that myself?
[12:38]	Talarus Luan 	I want tails and wings dammit. :P
[12:38]	Nyx Linden 	davido - no the link should give you a prebuilt installer
[12:38]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	+1
[12:39]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Also, the ever recurring question about the parametric clothing deformer.
[12:39]	Talarus Luan 	*animate-able tails and wings, etc
[12:39]	Quenemue Cyberstar 	is there any future plans on developing meshes. custom joints, normal mapping, specular mapping. ect.?yeah look at my hair... and tail. they definetely need some rigging :D. i wouldnt mind flexy. as long as tehy could be hand animated atleast
[12:39]	Geenz Kitten (geenz.spad) 	eh heh
[12:39]	Quenemue Cyberstar 	ops
[12:40]	Quenemue Cyberstar 	ignore the first sentense
[12:40]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Lucky Nyx is wearing armor. OO
[12:40]	Nyx Linden 	those are all good, interesting, and helpful features but complex to implement. The focus for development is currently making the features we have work better before working on new features for a while
[12:40]	Talarus Luan 	Well, we'll keep asking for them, ya know. :P
[12:40]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Does that mean the clothing parametric deformer?
[12:41]	Nyx Linden 	so I don't have a time frame for those feature requests, but they are known feature requests :)
[12:41]	RobsterRawb Jaxxon 	is it possible to implement a way to assign phantom child prims in a link set?
[12:41]	Squirrely Wrath (squirrel.wood) 	you should definitely consider replacing the existing skeleton with a more flexible one that supports multiple legs and proper tails for example
[12:41]	Nyx Linden 	Oz is coordinating with Qarl on the parametric deformer, I don't know what the status is personally.
[12:41]	Squirrely Wrath (squirrel.wood) 	and multiple arms of course :)
[12:41]	Squirrely Wrath (squirrel.wood) 	and heads :p
[12:41]	RobsterRawb Jaxxon 	good to know their talking :)
[12:41]	davep (runitai.linden) 	RobsterRawb: you can set child prim's physics shape type to "none"
[12:42]	RobsterRawb Jaxxon 	ty!
[12:42]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	You can set them to physics shape none. But, I want to know if there is a certain caveat to that. Does that mean you can't have collision detection in that prim?
[12:42]	RobsterRawb Jaxxon 	that would be ideal davido
[12:42]	Nyx Linden 	correct, the child prim would have no collision shape.
[12:42]	Second Life 	There is no suitable surface to sit on, try another spot.
[12:42]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	So, scripted collision detection won't work either?
[12:43]	davep (runitai.linden) 	right, raycasts would go right through
[12:43]	Nyx Linden 	no collisions would be detected for an object with no physics shape
[12:43]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	here for the parametric mesh clothes deformer:
[12:43]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	http://www.qarl.com/qLab/?p=76
[12:43]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Ah. Thank you.
[12:43]	Talarus Luan 	So it is phantom,but not llVolumeDetect-type phantom
[12:43]	Nyx Linden 	it is genuinely not there as far as the physics engine is concerned
[12:44]	Nyx Linden 	visual representation only
[12:44]	Nyx Linden 	and with that I think we'll wrap up a bit early this week
[12:45]	Nyx Linden 	thanks everyone for coming out!
[12:45]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Damn, I had hoped that you could have used the Mesh shield but keep the prim to detect ball steals. But that won't work then I guess.
[12:45]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Thanks Nyx
[12:45]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Thank you Nyx.
[12:45]	Nyx Linden 	keep an eye on the agenda page for scheduling updates
[12:45]	Talarus Luan 	Coo
[12:45]	Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi)	Thanks Nyx, Runitai & Vir.
[12:45]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Thank you Nyx!
[12:45]	Vir Linden 	bye all
[12:45]	davep (runitai.linden) 	laer, folks
[12:45]	LeeZu (leezu.baxter) 	thank you
[12:45]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Will mesh UG open next week?
[12:45]	claudia222 Jewell 	bye
[12:45]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Thx Lindens all
[12:45]	claudia222 Jewell 	thanks
[12:45]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	see ya Nyx and Dave
[12:45]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	thank you too
[12:46]	claudia222 Jewell 	bye all
[12:46]	Martin RJ (martinrj.fayray) 	goodbye
Generated by the 'Wikify SL Chat Log' utility by DG Products for Second Life (DGP4SL)