Open Development User Group/Archive/2011-03-14

Patnad - RezzMe Technologies 	hi Oz, first time i meet you.. umm i think
  	Wolfpup  	hey Oz
  	Oz Linden  	welcome
07:01 	  	Hope everyone had a good weekend and is ready for another productive week :-)
  	Wolfpup  	< had to work @ RL job but that is nothing new
  	Oz Linden  	First item on our agenda: # Create a special queue for issues LL wishes open devs would do?
07:02 	  	This one is a discussion topic that I'd like your reaction to....
  	Wolfpup  	that might be a good thing
  	Cummere Mayo  	not really... my weekend was marred by finding out three major security leaks with SL one of which is by Linden employees/contractors *sighs.*
  	  	and oz thats a good idea
  	Oz Linden  	Fairly often, we find issues that we'd like to see done, but for one reason or another it's not easy to allocate a Linden to them
07:03 	Wolfpup  	Cummere you talking abut the one you mentioned in IRC last night?
07:04 	Cummere Mayo  	wolfpup which one? Ive mentioned all three in irc :-/
  	Oz Linden  	the idea is that if we create a jira queue for those (exact form of the queue tbd, but assume it's a list that's easy to find) of those issues, then anyone who picks them up is already assured that we're interested and will progress the issue promptly
  	Wolfpup  	im still working on trying to get autobuild to work better in VC10 eenvironment but was able to do some testing of 9412 over the weekend as well
  	Cummere Mayo  	oz that would be a great idea and would help devs feel less "used and abused"
  	Wolfpup  	about group chaty
07:05 	Neal Kendrick  	yeah i had an issue trying to get autobuild to work in vc10
  	Wolfpup  	woops ment 941
  	Oz Linden  	anyone here feeling abused?
  	Wolfpup  	for the issue
  	  	not me
  	Cummere Mayo  	me actually
  	Oz Linden  	well, let's talk about that privately, Cummere
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	not abused, but I'd wish for a more symmetric relation between LL and the community
  	Wolfpup  	Cummere tester always get abused :p
  	Oz Linden  	I don't want anyone to feel abused
07:06 	Cummere Mayo  	theres a few devs that feel it too
  	  	but they arent here
  	  	but ill tell them to contact you if you like
  	Oz Linden  	The simple fact is that the relationship between osdevs and LL is not and never will be symetric
07:07 	  	but that doesn't mean that it can't be a relationship of mutual respect and cooperation
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	I didn't say "symmetric", I said "more symmetric". I realize that it can never be symmetric. (And maybe shouldn't.=
  	Neal Kendrick  	see my question is though should it be symetric? they are 2 entirely different dev teams. but i don't think ll does it purposely though.
  	Wolfpup  	btw Oz how is the progress on the OSdev build farm going?
07:08 	Oz Linden  	let's put it at that end of the list, WP
  	Cummere Mayo  	i think one of the biggest dev complaints i hear over and over is "I made a patch for a long exisitng bug and its just sitting there"
  	Wolfpup  	ok
  	Oz Linden  	yes, that happens
  	Cummere Mayo  	which is much of the used and abused feelings come from
  	  	*which is where
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	I think such a queue would be a good idea per se. But I hope that it wouldn't make progress for issues not on the queue any slower than it is.
  	Oz Linden  	The unhappy thing is that right now there are only a couple of us on the receiving end, and we can't always keep up
07:09 	Cummere Mayo  	totally understand oz....
  	Oz Linden  	we pick things to work on based on our priorities, and sometimes that will mean that things sit for a while
  	Neal Kendrick  	bugs tend to take a long time to get right though. it's about progression and at times theres other things that need work as what my experience is.
  	Cummere Mayo  	im not saying this is your (personal) fault
07:10 	Oz Linden  	Hopefully that situation will improve, but it will never be perfect
  	Patnad - RezzMe Technologies 	im guessing once a bug has been fixed it need to go through LLs QA dept right?!
  	  	well a patch i mean
  	Oz Linden  	lately, alas, I've been kept very busy picking up some of the things Q did
  	  	yes, it does
  	  	anyway - that's where this idea of a priority queue came from, in part
  	Neal Kendrick  	you mean q linden oz?
07:11 	Oz Linden  	yes, that's who I meant
  	Cummere Mayo  	yes patnad... often it goes through code review, testing by people such as me and then QA
  	Patnad - RezzMe Technologies 	maybe there should be a direct process where OS dev just contact QAs saying hey here is my patch please test it out
  	Neal Kendrick  	ahh that slacker :P
  	Cummere Mayo  	one of the awesome things that has been done lately is the PO builds shared to the entire os-dev list
  	Oz Linden  	We don't have the QA resources for that... they're kept quite busy with things that have already been through integration
07:12 	Patnad - RezzMe Technologies 	well then why having OSdev at all
  	Oz Linden  	yes, and I think we're going to do those even more frequently
  	  	why not?
  	  	we like osdevs.... by the way....
  	Cummere Mayo  	patnab because many of our most important fixes have been done by osdevs
  	Patnad - RezzMe Technologies 	i dont see the point of coding if the patch will never be picked up
07:13 	Neal Kendrick  	It seems the lab has alot of the things they have to work on. And sometimes for osdevs it doesn't happen the way they want it too. But the lab does try to meet everyone needs as of what i've seen.
  	Oz Linden  	Check this out.... http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Community-Feedback/Kudos-to-Linden-Lab/td-p/720009
  	Cummere Mayo  	in fact .... id say thats probably where at least half the work being done is coming from?
  	Oz Linden  	no, it's not nearly half, Cummere, but it is significant and getting larger
07:14 	Neal Kendrick  	i have to agree with that oz. 2.5 is quite faster then other builds of the sl viewer.
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	How about letting the community do part of the QA? Off course, that'd require some education about the processes and requirements, but that's something that could probably be passed on.
  	Oz Linden  	that blog post got passed around to viewer devs in LL
  	  	all but one of the changes that were praised there came from open devs through Snowstorm, so congratulations!
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	:-)
07:15 	Oz Linden  	the community does do a lot of QA
  	  	that doesn't mean that we get to skip ours
  	Cummere Mayo  	and you shouldnt
  	Patnad - RezzMe Technologies 	dont get me wrong tho im not saying LL is doing a bad job..
  	Cummere Mayo  	we dont catch everything
  	Neal Kendrick  	I found a delay in display names in 2.5 though. Seems as if the viewer doesn't change the name right away after chaning it on the web profiles.
07:16 	Oz Linden  	An important principle applys: you can share responsibility, but that doesn't reduce your share
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	true
  	Cummere Mayo  	neal thats not just dn's that seems to be everything run through web profiles
  	Neal Kendrick  	Yes very true oz.
  	Jonathan  	Good morning everyone, I was afk
  	Oz Linden  	If I ask residents to test something and they accept that responsibility, that doesn't reduce my responsibility to ensure that it's correct when I integrate a change
  	Neal Kendrick  	And yeah cummere i have noticed that.
07:17 	Patnad - RezzMe Technologies 	i dont really like the web profiles :/
  	Neal Kendrick  	Very true oz. That's why your a linden xD
  	Oz Linden  	Hi Jonathan... thought you were sailing ?
07:18 	Neal Kendrick  	Oz i love your dog perl...heheh
  	Oz Linden  	Web profiles are not something I can do much about right now, and not really on topic here/now
  	Cummere Mayo  	oz for what its worth, i think the lindens on snowstrom really do an impresive job considering that imo you have 1/4 the minimum number of lindens I personally feel you guys need to have
  	Jonathan  	I had barnacle troubles and had to return to base; the diver just finished up with e
  	Oz Linden  	well, we'll see.... I may get more some day
  	Jonathan  	*me
07:19 	Oz Linden  	(digression) - how far north will you be going, Jonathan?
  	Jonathan  	I'm going about 40 miles north of Boston
  	Oz Linden  	Well, let me know when you get up here and I'll take you out to lunch
07:20 	Jonathan  	I look forward to it
  	Cummere Mayo  	nice!
  	Neal Kendrick  	That is very true cummere. Snowstorm has been a very big success. Snowglobe was by far a great success and i'm glad the lab has opened it's doors to osdevs.
  	Oz Linden  	One of my retirement fantasies is to live on a trimaran
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	Oz ... when issues from the community get stuck ... what's the bottleneck usually? It might not even be QA.
  	Neal Kendrick  	Oh nice oz :)
  	Cummere Mayo  	Jonathan I wish you fun and safe sailing when you finally get to :)
07:21 	Jonathan  	Thank you Cummere
  	Patnad - RezzMe Technologies 	oh Oz, i had a question i asked other lindens but they said you were the best to ask to, do you have any stats about how many ppl using SL viewer 2.x
  	Oz Linden  	I'm not sure that I can identify any more specific problem than that there just isn't enough attention to go around
  	Neal Kendrick  	Well, thats why you have the community oz :)
07:22 	Cummere Mayo  	boroondas, actually I can partially answer that
  	Oz Linden  	we try to pick the ones with the broadest impact, but there's also and "easiness" factor - if something is small and easy to review, it's more likely to get attention quicky because we can finish it quickly
  	Cummere Mayo  	I know of two places and one of them when i have time i try to help with.... 1) they get lost in the jira.... sometimes cuase they arent properly marked, and sometimes cuase the jira itself is lost
07:23 	Neal Kendrick  	Nothing wrong with that oz xD
  	Oz Linden  	yes, the VWR jira is a mess
  	Patnad - RezzMe Technologies 	uhm then i think the idea you proposed (about having a queue for OSDev) will probably fix some of the issue regarding delay
07:24 	Oz Linden  	In some sense I'd like to just take an axe to it and close all but about 400 issues
  	Cummere Mayo  	2) when patches need updated or turn otu to have a conflict its sometimes very hard to find the time to get back with the dev that made and submitted the patch
  	Neal Kendrick  	Yeah, but i have to admit the redzone jira isn't helping either though oz.
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	So issues that are difficult to review and/or of low impact might get postponed forever, even when they have working fixes, as there will always be (newer) issues that are easier or more important (to LL)?
  	Oz Linden  	but I'm not sure my fireproof suit would hold up
07:25 	  	yes, there is some danger of that, Boroondas, but we'll try not to let them drag on forever
  	  	but here's an example we get a lot.....
  	Cummere Mayo  	oz if there was a sprint you were going to be doing allot of meetings and interviews i'd actually suggest doing just that oz... though maybe 1000 instead of 400 >.>
  	Oz Linden  	if people submit build-related issues for a platform we don't support
  	  	they don't affect any normal users at all
07:26 	  	they don't even affect developers who are working on platforms we do support
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	sounds familiar to me ;-)
  	Cummere Mayo  	lol
  	Oz Linden  	I imagine
07:27 	Neal Kendrick  	Just out of curiosity oz is xmpp live on aditi yet?
  	  	i know thats off topic just curious though.
  	Oz Linden  	it's not something I'm happy about - I'd love to support more platforms and more future-oriented ones
  	Cummere Mayo  	as a sidenote about unsupported platforms: it does amaze me sometimes how many clients we have running around claiming to be running on commodore 64s and apple IIe's
  	Oz Linden  	but when it's competing for attention with something that will affect all viewer users....
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	hu?
  	Oz Linden  	what would you pick?
07:28 	  	there are xmpp services up, but I don't know detailed status on them yet, Neal
  	Neal Kendrick  	Honestly, id pick the platform currently being used. And try to stick weith it. Then try and support futue ones.
  	Oz Linden  	well, that's what we do
07:29 	Neal Kendrick  	It's easier.
  	Oz Linden  	I sympatize with Linux devs - I have been one for many years
07:30 	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	Tough call. But not merging build fixes keeps those devs who need them busy porting them forward, so they have less time tackling the issues that might be important to LL and/or the general public. In the end, merging them quickly might give you a net. win on non-build issues, too.
  	Oz Linden  	but I don't have any illusions about how many linux users there are, so things that don't affect users on other platforms just don't get many points for impact
  	Neal Kendrick  	But i have found it easier though to build on linux though oz. But windows is what im more familiar with.
  	Oz Linden  	yes, well, we're trying to make the build process more uniform
  	  	anyway...
  	Cummere Mayo  	anyways we've spent half the meeting on the first topic... any chance we could skip to topics 3 and 4 oz
07:31 	Oz Linden  	... on the current topic... I will set up an os-dev-wish-list queue of some kind and we'll talk about it next time
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	cool
  	Cummere Mayo  	yay!
  	Neal Kendrick  	Sounds good.
  	Oz Linden  	well, #3 is easy ... I just keep forgetting to get someone to reset the forgotten password so that I can fix it
  	  	I'll try again
07:32 	Jonathan  	Oz, the flip side of that idea -- if we had a place to list jiras that we have worked on -- maybe that would be more streamlined than trying to get them decided on at an hour-long meeting.
  	Wolfpup  	ya some thing like the new open jira catigory
07:33 	Oz Linden  	Patnad asked about user counts... yes, we have incredibly rich stats on that and lots of other things, but we don't share the details
  	Neal Kendrick  	Yes i agree. I think it would make it easier maybe to like categorize the importance of the jiras too.
07:34 	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	We don't need details. Can you share summaries?
07:35 	Patnad - RezzMe Technologies 	id like to know %% of ppl using v1.23 base vs 2.x
07:36 	Neal Kendrick  	I just think for everyone's sake. Taking the importance of a bigger problem then taking the smaller problems on a level scale of the issue. Like 5 being the up most importance for instance viewer having issues connecting to the grid. Or payment issues in the viewer...as a smeller one. You know?
  	Oz Linden  	Well, at present, Phoenix is the most often used viewer, then our current viewer, then Imprudence (if I remember right)
  	Patnad - RezzMe Technologies 	so basicly more ppl still use 1.23 base then
07:37 	Lord Noob  	phoenix is snow 1.5 based
  	Patnad - RezzMe Technologies 	that might change soon tho i head phoenix moving to 2.x
  	Oz Linden  	In theory, we order the stuff in the Backlog in rough priority order
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	Sounds so, but don't forget that phoenix and imrpu both have quite some 2.x features backported.
  	Neal Kendrick  	Well, thats because people loved emerald. Phoenix brings emerald to them without all the nasty mailicious code in it. And i have4 to say for the phoenix team. Their support may not be great but their coding is for sure awesome.
  	Oz Linden  	I have not looked at it lately, so I don't know how that is doing in practice at the moment
  	Lord Noob  	firestorm is our v2 port and its still in alpha (based on v2.4 currently)
07:38 	  	but less than 2000 people use it currently
  	Cummere Mayo  	tank have you guys fixed the annoying issue with the top bar not properly responding to its settings on load?
  	Lord Noob  	we havent changed the top bar
  	Patnad - RezzMe Technologies 	cool that pretty much answered my question ㋡
  	Lord Noob  	yet anyway
07:39 	Cummere Mayo  	darn... cause its my currant pet peeve with firestorm
  	Oz Linden  	I do want to do the Open triage - we only have 2 issues
  	Neal Kendrick  	Don't get me wrong the phoenix support team has a 24/7 operation. But it doesn't mean it's really great support. But phoenix does do some amazing code for the users. And provides an easier to use system then let's say imprudence or viewer 2 or any of those.
  	Cummere Mayo  	i set it to not display something and despite keeping the setting when i relog it does it anyways
  	Oz Linden  	open-43
  	Office Orb  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-43
OPEN-43 Autobuild2010 package project does not place LindenDeveloper.exe in build-vc100/newview/RelWithDebInfo
07:40 	Wolfpup  	Oz on that one for some reason it is sliently fain to copy secondlife-bin to LindenDeveloper
  	Oz Linden  	I don't really understand this one... it does not describe what the effect is
  	Neal Kendrick  	Yeah, im still at trying to get autobuild to work there oz.
07:41 	Wolfpup  	I did a build with NickyP repository last nigh and then searched the repositoy for LindenDeveloper and it was not found at all
  	Oz Linden  	does this mean that the resulting installer does not work? (I don't know windows installer tech much at all)
  	Wolfpup  	that is correct
07:42 	Oz Linden  	don't talk to me about Nickys repo
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	what /is/ LindenDeveloper.exe? never heard about that program, yet.
  	Wolfpup  	as the target exe is not there
  	Neal Kendrick  	Yeah, it sounds it oz.
  	Oz Linden  	I want to know what my repo does
  	Jonathan  	Oz, I can't use your repo on Windows. Nicky has fixed a number of issues
  	Wolfpup  	Boroondas LindenDiveloper is the viewer itsself
07:43 	  	Oz nickyP's repository is based off of yours
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	ah? I thought it was named SecondLife.exe on Windows?
  	Wolfpup  	that is for the release
  	Neal Kendrick  	That's what i thought.
  	Oz Linden  	I expect to have a short period (days) during which the Snowstorm team won't be moving much into viewer-development (while an larger internal project does so), so I expect to spend a lot of time on the autobuild and vs2010 stuff this week
07:44 	Cummere Mayo  	perks up
  	Oz Linden  	is not going to tell you about that project
  	Patnad - RezzMe Technologies 	this is the best place to start if we want to try building the viewer right? http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Nicky_Perian/Visual_Studio_10_Autobuild
  	Jonathan  	It would be nice if your repo could incorporate Nicky's changes.
  	Neal Kendrick  	Why would the release be any different then the beta or private version? i mean they sre the same extension rigfht?
  	Cummere Mayo  	oz: tease!
  	Wolfpup  	Oz NickyP's repositoy fixes a lot of build issues for VC10autobuild
07:45 	Patnad - RezzMe Technologies 	2.6 will include mesh?? that project ^^
  	Lord Noob  	can guess the project but wont say :P
  	Oz Linden  	one of the things I'll be doing is looking at them, but first I need to get synched up with the changes in the jenn_linden/viewer-vs2010 repo
  	Wolfpup  	but there is still the issue of building secondlif-bin takeing too much heap space durning compile
07:46 	  	if it dose then OS devs will be out of the loop for a while till convexdecop is opensourced
07:47 	Oz Linden  	that will be sorted out by the time mesh merges, Wolfpup
  	Neal Kendrick  	i dont think that would be the case would it? i mean they could esily just use the old method of building the viewer right?
  	Wolfpup  	i hope so as i can not even build the mesh viewer localy
  	Oz Linden  	ok... so open-43 affects developer builds - does it affect release builds, or is that different?
07:48 	Neal Kendrick  	I'll have to give it a go oz i haven't tried it yet.
  	Wolfpup  	Oz the build i did last night was in release mode and still not lindendeveloper file
07:49 	Oz Linden  	I'll have to send this back for more info....
  	  	open-37
  	Office Orb  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-37
OPEN-37 Cmake errors when using autobuild with Visual Studio 10(VS2010)
  	Wolfpup  	oz for some reason the python script to make the new exe file is not working
07:50 	Neal Kendrick  	thx to whomever gave the link for nickies build process...that looks so much easier actually.
  	Oz Linden  	again... I need to know if this works on my repo - (oz_linden/viewer-autobuild2010) ... it won't surprise me if it does not, but basically I don't want any bug reports against any other repo
  	Wolfpup  	Oz that one has to have the dev actualy patch Cmake its self to get the right flags for VC10
07:51 	Oz Linden  	There are many Lindens successfully building with vs2010, Wolfpup
  	  	it is just not true that cannot be done...
  	Wolfpup  	Oz they are on MUCH powerfull systems
  	Jonathan  	Oz, then you need to make it a priority to incorporate Nicky's changes -- us Express users need his tweaks
07:52 	Oz Linden  	yes, I know that express support is a problem
  	Wolfpup  	im on a 32-bit dual core and maxed @ 4GB of mem
  	Neal Kendrick  	But see now would the developer using 2010 need extra files like boost? or any other lib or fmod file though oz?
  	Oz Linden  	I'll keep this one around for a while, but I'll want it retested later this week when we get my 2010 repo working on our systems (it is somewhat behind jenns repo)
07:53 	Wolfpup  	plus there are tweaks for those with 4GB or les of memory
  	Oz Linden  	we've got autobuild packages for all the windows dependencies now
  	Cummere Mayo  	's sytem cant even support more then 4 gig memory T.T
07:54 	Patnad - RezzMe Technologies 	ill try to give it another shot, i havent been able to compile SL`s viewer yet
  	Neal Kendrick  	I am using a 6 year old computer to do all this. Lol, i got my tablet running win7 with 4gb of ram and support for only 32 bit software.
  	Oz Linden  	I'll get some info on how our windows dev systems are set up
  	Cummere Mayo  	anyways... oz can we take the last 5 minutes to discuss the last agenda item?
  	Patnad - RezzMe Technologies 	im used to click the run button and bang it runs eheh
  	Wolfpup  	Oz configureing for building the dependancise is interesting for us OS devs
07:55 	  	just look @ my comments in the one merov is working on
  	Lord Noob  	coughs
  	  	hope that smoke isnt toxic
  	  	:P
  	Wolfpup  	Oz also if you pull in merov's curren Fmod fixes it will help
07:56 	Neal Kendrick  	keels over and dies lol
  	Oz Linden  	ok... well, watch for updates to my autobuild repos is all I can say at the moment
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	That might depend on the material the prim is set to. Hope it's wood, not rubber.
  	Oz Linden  	it's glass, if I remember right
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	Hmm ... glass shouldn't be able to burn.
  	Oz Linden  	still wants a good timer-expiration effect....
07:57 	  	anything will burn if you get it hot enough
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	tic-tac tic-tac boooooom
  	Cummere Mayo  	4) Problems with the most recent po and v-d builds...
1. huge cpu and memory speed up when restoring very active groups or ims from mininimized
2. increasing login issues including but not limited to storm-526
3. crash on logout
  	Office Orb  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-526
STORM-526 Log out failure during Login causes loss of pending offers, including inventory
  	Jonathan  	Oz, you could have the sea level slowly rise :)
  	Wolfpup  	Boroondas if glass gets hot enought it will vaporise
  	Neal Kendrick  	You should get one that explodes oz and has a big boom lmao.
  	Wolfpup  	Boroondas how do you think the make IC chips
07:58 	  	IC's are made of glass
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	Kinda yes.
  	Oz Linden  	Put those issues on the agenda for the viewer meeting tomorrow, please, Cummere
  	Cummere Mayo  	okay will do
  	Neal Kendrick  	Like a bomb you know? And it goes count down to termination has been initiated 5...4....3....2....1....BOOM!
  	Wolfpup  	they are made fron slica and so is glass just at different melting temps
  	Oz Linden  	I've got another meeting, so I've got to wrap up.... thanks for coming everyone
  	Cummere Mayo  	merovs meeting?
07:59 	Wolfpup  	you tc Oz
  	Cummere Mayo  	tc oz
  	Lord Noob  	tyhx for the info and the time
  	Neal Kendrick  	Thanks for having us oz always a pleasure xD
  	Oz Linden  	sorry - the Wednesday Viewer User Group meeting
  	Lord Noob  	have a good day :)
  	Office Orb  	End transcription
  	Jonathan  	btw oz, could you tell us where the transcripts are going now?