AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2010-05-04

[08:41]	Latha Serevi: 	Yawn, stretch. Will get coffee and check the agenda page. Am logged in via Par + SG2 in keeping with the theme.
[08:44]	Morgaine Dinova: 	'Morning
[08:45]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	yo
[08:45]	Roland Riddler: 	heyas
[08:45]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hiya Roland
[08:45]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hi Latha, Sai
[08:45]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Did you read my expanded agenda page, Latha?
[08:48]	Latha Serevi: 	Just did, yes
[08:50]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I like the proxies (in fact I'm using one right now from InWorldz), but it's an unwieldy solution in its normal guise. I think it needs the architectural improvement I suggested on the page.
[08:50]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	Hey Ms O
[08:50]	Meadhbh Oh: 	heya sai
[08:50]	Meadhbh Oh: 	are we meeting this mornnig?
[08:50]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	far as I know
[08:51]	Meadhbh Oh: 	did zha announce an agenda?
[08:51]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	BTW, lots of experimentation with IRC/Jabber bridges in group chat. You've been notified
[08:51]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yup, we have an agenda, basically Latha's day today
[08:51]	Meadhbh Oh: 	coolies. lisa/roo should be notified as well.
[08:52]	Meadhbh Oh: 	last i heard, i was going to present on extensibility in vwrap
[08:53]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Not heard of that. Maybe Zha's trying to cram both in, doesn't seem like a good idea though, they're each big topics.
[08:54]	Meadhbh Oh: 	ah. okay. guess my talk was canceled
[08:54]	Latha Serevi: 	Oh, sorry, Meadhbh, I wonder if Zha and I got our signals crossed?
[08:54]	Latha Serevi: 	Maybe "next week's" meant something different to each of us.
[08:55]	Meadhbh Oh: 	i put my talk on the schedule two weeks ago afte josh's talk
[09:02]	Latha Serevi: 	Meadhbh, sorry, had no idea there was a conflict. Given that we've been relaying IRC and Jabber like maniacs over the weekend and working up a head of steam on my topic of proxy-based interop ... it might be an unruly crowd if we do yours today. Are you inclined to bump yours to next week, or to do a two-parter, or to bump mine?
[09:03]	Meadhbh Oh: 	let's just bump mine.
[09:03]	Meadhbh Oh: 	i'm coming off a cold anyway
[09:03]	Meadhbh Oh: 	so my brainisn't completely here at the moment
[09:04]	Latha Serevi: 	Thanks, appreciate it.
[09:04]	Latha Serevi: 	Now I just hope a couple of my "special guests" show up. ;-)
[09:05]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	LO: I'm sorta awake for a while. Doing usual spam
[09:05]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	can you give me a one-liner description to include, Latha?
[09:06]	Meadhbh Oh: 	"special guests" sounds omninous
[09:06]	Meadhbh Oh: 	ominous
[09:06]	Meadhbh Oh: 	?
[09:06]	Meadhbh Oh: 	?
[09:06]	Latha Serevi: 	Sai, --> the Tuesday 9:30 groupies meeting will be hosted by Latha Serevi on the theme of "proxy-based interop"
[09:06]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	KK
[09:06]	Meadhbh Oh: 	no one has added a spellchecker to the client yet?
[09:07]	Latha Serevi: 	I specially invited Latif, Dahlia, Dzonatas, and the speciallest guest, LordGregGreg.
[09:08]	Latha Serevi: 	Although Greg didn't say he'd show, just grumbled about the early hour. ;-)
[09:08]	Meadhbh Oh can't touch the client for another couple months. i'm beginning to hate the ramifications of the GPL 	Meadhbh Oh can't touch the client for another couple months. i'm beginning to hate the ramifications of the GPL
[09:08]	Morgaine Dinova: 	https://wiki.secondlife.com/w/index.php?title=AW_Groupies_In-World_Meeting_Agenda
[09:08]	Meadhbh Oh: 	remind him it's 5:30PM somewhere
[09:08]	Morgaine Dinova: 	It's not a ramification of the GPL. Opensim's restriction is specific to LL code.
[09:09]	Meadhbh Oh: 	we can put a gin and tonic in his hand, that might make the early hour more palatable
[09:15]	Latha Serevi: 	In keeping with the recent trend, I'm relaying local chat at TBT to irc://irc.quickfox.net/groupies for this morning.
[09:15]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Cool
[09:15]	LathaSerevi waves 	LathaSerevi waves
[09:16]	Morgaine Dinova: 	/names
[09:17]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hiya Zha :-)
[09:21]	David Valerian: 	Hi :)
[09:22]	Roland Riddler: 	heyas
[09:22]	Zha Ewry: 	Latha do you need to rez anything to present on? Or just chat?
[09:23]	Wut waves to everyone in TBT 	Wut waves to everyone in TBT
[09:23]	Kevin Paisley: 	giggles at roland checking his pits
[09:23]	Roland Riddler: 	;-)
[09:23]	Meadhbh Oh: 	hola
[09:23]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hiya Wut!
[09:24]	Latha Serevi: 	Zha, thanks, it'll just be text chat.
[09:24]	Wut: ooh, it's working :) 	Wut: ooh, it's working :)
[09:24]	Zha Ewry: 	/
[09:24]	Zha Ewry: 	Super
[09:24]	Zha Ewry likes when other people present, as its easy on the fingers 	Zha Ewry likes when other people present, as its easy on the fingers
[09:24]	Wut: hehe 	Wut: hehe
[09:25]	Morgaine Dinova: 	It's been an interesting week for chat interop. Just imagine when we start doing object interop :-)
[09:25]	Zha Ewry: 	Next week, the mea, who's last few letters are hard to type will be talking abot future proofing VWRAP
[09:25]	Latif Khalifa: 	yeah, which reminds me
[09:25]	Latha Serevi: 	Hey, Zha, how about adding a first line to the groupies charter now, "NOTE: group chat may be relayed outside SL."
[09:25]	Zha Ewry ponders 	Zha Ewry ponders
[09:25]	Zha Ewry: 	I could do that
[09:25]	Latif Khalifa: 	it was fun and all to play with the bridge
[09:25]	Latha Serevi: 	seems like fair warning.
[09:26]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I put that in the VWRAP Chat group.
[09:26]	Latif Khalifa: 	but it's up to Zha to approvie if we wanted it run on a more permanent basis
[09:26]	Zha Ewry: 	Worse still, it would be nice if people fromt he outside refrained from egreigous nastiness
[09:26]	Zha Ewry: 	I like havbing it up
[09:26]	Morgaine Dinova: 	"Membership implies consent". That was easy because no retrospective issues there, since it was a new group.
[09:27]	Latha Serevi: 	Zha, we've set up me and MichelleZ as chan-ops on the IRC, so we could always "boot" the relay bot, I think, if problems happened.
[09:27]	Latha Serevi: 	We're working out the social consequences as we go.,..
[09:27]	Zha Ewry: 	I think its good to have the low cost way of people following
[09:27]	Latha Serevi: 	...but it's sure educational.
[09:27]	Zha Ewry: 	and besides why should only SL people here the insanely odd discussions that come up?
[09:28]	Zha Ewry: 	Ahuva! You're leaving dents in my grass!
[09:28]	Latha Serevi: 	We had our first pain-in-the-butt last night (hi, Kevin!), just to remind us that we'll have to be aware of these things.
[09:28]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Ahuva, you;re hopping
[09:28]	Kevin Paisley: 	and going underground :P
[09:28]	Latif Khalifa: 	hey Dahlia
[09:28]	Zha Ewry: 	Woah, Sparkly metallic Dahlia
[09:28]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hiya Dahlia :-)
[09:28]	Dahlia Trimble: 	hi :)
[09:28]	Ahuva Heliosense: 	*grin* i dont weight that much, Zha, the grass will recover
[09:29]	Latif Khalifa: 	was there a rolling restart today?
[09:29]	Zha Ewry: 	/Nice glossy texturing on the Dahlia Bot
[09:30]	Ahuva Heliosense: 	everyone but Dahlia and Zha are clouds for me :(
[09:30]	Meadhbh Oh: 	is dahliabot saluting or biting her fingernails?
[09:30]	Dahlia Trimble: 	trying to make my avatar look like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maschinenmensch
[09:30]	Zha Ewry: 	Nicely classical
[09:31]	Rex Cronon: 	greetings everybody
[09:31]	Meadhbh Oh starts humming kraftwerk to herself at the mention of the man machine 	Meadhbh Oh starts humming kraftwerk to herself at the mention of the man machine
[09:31]	Meadhbh Oh: 	hola rex
[09:31]	Kevin Paisley: 	ahoy rex
[09:31]	Wut: hiya rex 	Wut: hiya rex
[09:31]	Zha Ewry goes looking for a boat 	Zha Ewry goes looking for a boat
[09:31]	Roland Riddler: 	hi
[09:31]	Rex Cronon: 	hi meadhbh, kevin, wut, roland
[09:31]	Zha Ewry: 	OK, I'm going to update the charter to mention that there may be bridging to outside channels
[09:32]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Cool Zha
[09:32]	Zha Ewry: 	Latha, should I mention you as admin on the chats outside SL?
[09:32]	Latha Serevi: 	Zha, I wouldn't ... just leave it as "may be relayed"...
[09:32]	Zha Ewry: 	Sounds good
[09:32]	Latha Serevi: 	...but atm Latif, me, and MichelleZ are chanops
[09:33]	Zha Ewry digs into the 2.01 group ui, hopeing to emerge with an updated charter within the hour 	Zha Ewry digs into the 2.01 group ui, hopeing to emerge with an updated charter within the hour
[09:33]	Morgaine Dinova: 	lol
[09:33]	Latif Khalifa: 	actually, i extended the list... so on ic, myself, latha, dahlia, robin (michellez) and hermit can moderate
[09:33]	Wut: pleasant though, this is much less network intensive than radegast 	Wut: pleasant though, this is much less network intensive than radegast
[09:33]	Latha Serevi: 	Topic for today is at https://wiki.secondlife.com/w/index.php?title=AW_Groupies_In-World_Meeting_Agenda . My outline of today's topic is the first two sections.
[09:33]	Latif Khalifa: 	irc*
[09:33]	Rex Cronon: 	many brave souls have dissapeared that way, zha:)
[09:34]	Zha Ewry updates the charter 	Zha Ewry updates the charter
[09:34]	David Valerian: 	Interesting, I never knew this was possible
[09:34]	Meadhbh Oh: 	brb. have to put coins in the meter
[09:35]	Zha Ewry: 	"Please be aware your words may travel far."
[09:35]	Rex Cronon: 	u should have said: be aware that u will find yourself on google:)
[09:36]	Zha Ewry: 	Well that's true of every word typed spoken, or otherwise encoded, isn't it?
??? [09:36] Wut: :)
[09:36]	Zha Ewry: 	Except on apple Ipads in flash ;-)
[09:36]	Rex Cronon: 	nope
[09:36]	Latif Khalifa: 	lol
[09:36]	Latha Serevi: 	FYI, the second youtube video listed on http://code.google.com/p/par/ is greg's 5 minute overview video of Par.
[09:37]	Meadhbh Oh: 	the "dark web"
[09:37]	Zha Ewry: 	Well, I sort of assume every single bit of content I ever create sooner or later will be indexed on google. It saves being surprised
[09:37]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Latha, QuickFox has gone red. I guess that's "bad"
[09:37]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Ah, green again
[09:37]	Wut: hmm. i can still hear you 	Wut: hmm. i can still hear you
[09:37]	Latha Serevi: 	It just hiccups red now and then but doens't seem to lose anything
[09:37]	Meadhbh Oh: 	hmm.. there's also archive.org
[09:38]	Zha Ewry: 	ok, a couple more minutes and I think Latha can start
[09:38]	Wut: yep, a godsend 	Wut: yep, a godsend
[09:38]	Zha Ewry debates tossing a stick 	Zha Ewry debates tossing a stick
[09:38]	David Valerian: 	Awesome, I'm really looking forward to this discussion
[09:38]	Morgaine Dinova winds up Latha's tail 	Morgaine Dinova winds up Latha's tail
[09:38]	Latha Serevi: 	I'm thinking maybe I'll try typing real fast for about 5 minutes to get us started.
[09:39]	Latha Serevi: 	(I almost prepared some stuff ahead, but didn't)
[09:39]	Zha Ewry laughs 	Zha Ewry laughs
[09:39]	Meadhbh Oh: 	before we start let me just say that at the coffee shop i'm at, they're playing a reggae version of pink floyd's dark side of the moon.
[09:39]	Meadhbh Oh: 	it really works
[09:39]	Wut: hehe 	Wut: hehe
[09:39]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	is it still in synch with Wizard of OZ?
[09:39]	Kevin Paisley: 	is this a coffee shop or one of those weed smoking joints in NL? :P
[09:40]	David Valerian: 	ø*ø LooOOoL ø*ø
[09:40]	Zha Ewry: 	So.. as we get going... The usual disclaimer applies
[09:40]	Meadhbh Oh: 	no. it's a coffee shop in sandta cruz, so you have to go outside to smoke weed
[09:40]	Zha Ewry: 	This is an informal open meeting, whatyou say here will sooner or later likely beposted to the SL wiki by the Kuhn Bot
[09:40]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	the kuhn bot sticks his tongue out
[09:40]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Coincidentally I'm at the coffee station in the InWorldz grid. Nice social atmosphere.
[09:40]	Zha Ewry: 	Speak and expect to be public
[09:41]	Zha Ewry: 	With that out of the way, Latha's going to type like a caffine crazed canine to start the discussion
[09:41]	Dahlia Trimble: 	lol
[09:41]	Latha Serevi: 	Okay, here goes.
[09:41]	David Valerian: 	Meeting with a dog in the park, this is awesome, haha!
[09:41]	Latha Serevi: 	The outline I wrote is the first two sections of https://wiki.secondlife.com/w/index.php?title=AW_Groupies_In-World_Meeting_Agenda
[09:42]	Latha Serevi: 	This is largely prompted by this week's lively action
[09:42]	Latha Serevi: 	started when Latif did an awesome job hooking up
[09:42]	Latha Serevi: 	an IRC client to Radegast and doing "agent style bridging"
[09:42]	Latha Serevi: 	(i.e. a bot acts like a client on each VW of interest and relays chat)
[09:42]	Latha Serevi: 	When I learned of Dahlia's proxy based approach
[09:43]	Latha Serevi: 	(XMPP relay based on a plugin to gridproxy)
[09:43]	Latha Serevi: 	it occurred to me that I wanted to understand the proxy-based approachm,
[09:43]	Latha Serevi: 	, its limitations and advantages.
[09:43]	Latha Serevi: 	I'm thinking of this on two levels.
[09:43]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I'm currently on Dahlia's proxy from InWorldz.
[09:43]	Latha Serevi: 	In the longer term, VWRAP seems to be moving
[09:44]	Latha Serevi: 	toward a federation style model, where a client
[09:44]	Latha Serevi: 	connects to lots of diverse services.
[09:44]	Latha Serevi: 	The question there is, will some of those services be dressed-up by proxies.
[09:44]	Latha Serevi: 	But the short term, and very interesting case, is libomv based proxying
[09:44]	Latha Serevi: 	of a SL packet stream.
[09:44]	Latha Serevi: 	Very interesting because we have practical and useful tools for doing it now.
[09:44]	Latha Serevi: 	...and can therefore dress-up any SL client.
[09:45]	Latha Serevi: 	with the subset of capabilities that can be added to a proxy.
[09:45]	Latha Serevi: 	Some things would seem difficult to do that way, but many are do-able.
[09:45]	Latha Serevi: 	Dahlia's XMPP proxy is a clear case --
[09:45]	Latha Serevi: 	just have a configurable Jabber client hiding in a proxy layer, and patch it into group-chat logic
[09:45]	Latha Serevi: 	...using chat commands like "/jabber init" to control the proxy.
[09:46]	Latha Serevi: 	LordGregGreg's Par is a really wildly interesting example.
[09:46]	Latha Serevi: 	He's added all sorts of crazy Emerald stuff into a proxy that can be used by any viewer.
[09:46]	Latha Serevi: 	e.g. right now I'm using Par and SG2.
[09:46]	Latha Serevi: 	So, I get "viewer ID" in my viewer 2, etc.
[09:47]	Latha Serevi: 	(pause, deep breath)
[09:47]	Latha Serevi: 	Any questions or comments so far on my intro?
[09:47]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Nope :-)
[09:47]	Latha Serevi: 	The second tie-in I'm making is to "extensible viewers".
[09:47]	Meadhbh Oh: 	sounds pretty straightforward to me
[09:47]	Rex Cronon: 	looks that there r 2 distinct ways: by proxy, and using a bot
[09:48]	Latha Serevi: 	Rex, the 3rd is viewer plugins, and the 4th is REST viewer services like SNOW-375.
[09:48]	Latha Serevi: 	I'm pursuing the line of thought that says...
[09:48]	Latha Serevi: 	... proxies are one way to dress up the viewer-server interaction....
[09:48]	Latha Serevi: 	...but any kind of viewer enhancement is another.
[09:49]	Latha Serevi: 	... and particularly the loosely-coup-led-viewer idea.
[09:49]	xstorm Radek: 	has any one looked to see if viewer 2 and snowglobe is open to cookie attack or tracking ?
[09:49]	Latha Serevi: 	xstorm, I"m going to steamroller that q.
[09:49]	Dahlia Trimble: 	loosely coup?
[09:49]	Rex Cronon: 	if u use shared media, u bet u can be tracked
[09:49]	Latha Serevi: 	loosely coupled viewer -- e.g. Dzonatas's.
??? [09:49] Wut: :)
[09:49]	Wut: SNOW-375 is rather fun 	Wut: SNOW-375 is rather fun
[09:49]	Latha Serevi: 	Dzonatas's SNOW-375 idea, which I don't completely love,
[09:50]	Latha Serevi: 	...is to define an API that the viewer provides to other loosely coupled viewer services.
[09:50]	Latha Serevi: 	...via HTTP
[09:50]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Loose coupling is the ONLY idea that's remotely sensible. There are lots of ways to achieve it, not just Dzon's.
[09:50]	Latha Serevi: 	So, if Dzonatas writes some code that provides chat messages to HTTP, then I can write a separate window chat client.
[09:50]	Dahlia Trimble: 	I kinda like that idea if it becomes widespread and it allows the same access that I'm using in gridproxy now
[09:50]	Rex Cronon: 	looks like s375 can be implemented via viewer plugin
[09:51]	Latha Serevi: 	Taken to its extreme, you would have a "headless thick client" that does all the sim interaction and provides not a gui, but HOOKS into which other guis dip.
[09:51]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Latha++
[09:51]	Latha Serevi: 	fThen it starts to look like a fancy proxy (!)
[09:51]	Latha Serevi: 	I might mention the server-side rendering here.
[09:51]	Latha Serevi: 	If you're on a smartphone, what you'd like in between you and SL
[09:52]	Morgaine Dinova: 	The body of the viewer should actually have no UI at all, just an API to which you can hook any number of alternative UIs.
[09:52]	Latha Serevi: 	...is pretty much a full viewer that provides ways for your smartphone to show you w2hat's going on.
[09:52]	Latha Serevi: 	...and which renders and controls your 3-d view so your smartphone doesn't have to.
[09:53]	Latha Serevi: 	Let me check my outline at https://wiki.secondlife.com/w/index.php?title=AW_Groupies_In-World_Meeting_Agenda and see if I've covered the main points I had prepared.
[09:53]	Wut: or it could find a middle ground and preprocess the scene into simple OpenGL ES commands 	Wut: or it could find a middle ground and preprocess the scene into simple OpenGL ES commands
[09:53]	Latha Serevi: 	I seem to have covered my bullet points.
[09:53]	Latha Serevi: 	So, that's the theme for today -- how proxies fit into the overall ecosystem of VW interactionsl,
[09:53]	Wut: having already culled, and maybe integrated motion etc 	Wut: having already culled, and maybe integrated motion etc
[09:53]	Meadhbh Oh: 	coolies!
[09:54]	Latha Serevi: 	with particular attention to the interesting set of RIGHT THIS MONTH proxies using SL packet based libomv approaches.
[09:54]	Latha Serevi: 	If LordGregGreg shows up, he'd be a really interesting addition to the chat.
[09:54]	Latha Serevi: 	...because he has played some really silly proxy tricks.
[09:54]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I should say that I've used Dahlia's jabber plugin for gridproxy A LOT, and generally like it. It does have issues however, which I've described in the agenda, plus solutions for them.
[09:54]	Rex Cronon: 	if all messages between viewer and sim r encrypted, then proxies r kind of out of the question
[09:55]	Latha Serevi: 	Rex, yes
[09:55]	Latha Serevi: 	...and indeed, it's a little twisted to construct a system...
[09:55]	Latha Serevi: 	...where the viewer DOESNT KNOW that features are being added.
[09:55]	Meadhbh Oh: 	should i comment not that at one time the idea fro enhancing inworld IM was to speak OGP CHAT between the client and a proxy that implemented the sim parts of text chat
[09:55]	Latha Serevi: 	But of course that has the advantage that the viewer doesn't ne3ed to be changed, or even under our contorl.
[09:55]	Meadhbh Oh: 	s/not/now/
[09:55]	Rex Cronon: 	even now in emerald u can have encrypted chat
[09:56]	Latha Serevi: 	Rex - encrypted chat is a good example.
[09:56]	Meadhbh Oh: 	also. if the proxy is local, it's pretty trivial for it to peek into the memory space of another program to extract the key material
[09:56]	Latha Serevi: 	...particularly since Par adds encrypted chat to an arbitrary client via proxy!
[09:56]	Meadhbh Oh: 	if it's remote, just have the proxy act as a MitM
[09:56]	Rex Cronon: 	u need also to have the same algorithm
[09:56]	Latha Serevi: 	I wonder how much would break if you strung two Par proxies together in series. Probably just about everythying.
[09:57]	xstorm Radek: 	encrypted chat can open up a lot of problems for a company
[09:57]	Latha Serevi: 	i.e. Par isn't just a clean filter.
[09:57]	Latha Serevi: 	I think there are other gridproxy based plugins that are purer filters of the SL packet stream.
[09:57]	Meadhbh Oh: 	a lto of companies are down with encrypted chat, as long as a trusted central authority can peek when they need to
[09:57]	Latha Serevi: 	Dahlia, any comment at this point?
[09:57]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Peeking into another process's memory space is an extraordinarily bad idea, even if feasible
[09:58]	Dahlia Trimble: 	well I havent really prepared anything, but I can briefly describe the jabber proxy and/or answer questions
[09:58]	Latha Serevi: 	(whoa, lost IRC bridge to quickfox
[09:58]	Commy: (Proprietary version) SL->IRC: Channel: #groupies 	Commy: (Proprietary version) SL->IRC: Channel: #groupies
[09:58]	Commy: (Proprietary version) SL->IRC: Password: interop 	Commy: (Proprietary version) SL->IRC: Password: interop
[09:58]	Commy: (Proprietary version) SL->IRC: Max HTTP requests per second: 1 	Commy: (Proprietary version) SL->IRC: Max HTTP requests per second: 1
[09:58]	Commy: (Proprietary version) SL->IRC: Throttle delay: 210 	Commy: (Proprietary version) SL->IRC: Throttle delay: 210
[09:58]	Commy: (Proprietary version) SL->IRC: Loaded settings from notecard, starting. 	Commy: (Proprietary version) SL->IRC: Loaded settings from notecard, starting.
[09:59]	xstorm Radek: 	the problem is viewers like emerald has encrypted chat that is made so now one can view it
[09:59]	Latha Serevi: 	(had to reset the bridge, was a network hiccup of some kind)
[09:59]	Rex Cronon: 	lets wait a few sec for quickfox to restart
[09:59]	Dahlia Trimble: 	I've been using gridproxy for quite a while to explore the SL protocol and I wanted to test possible ways of adding group chat to OpenSim
[09:59]	Latha Serevi: 	...listenst to Dahlia and thinks...
[10:00]	Dahlia Trimble: 	at one time I wanted to see how a jabber enabled client could work for interop or group chat
[10:00]	Dahlia Trimble: 	but I use many different clients and I dont build my own LL based clients
[10:01]	Dahlia Trimble: 	so I coded up a proxy that allows an IM window in a normal client to connect to a dummy IM session in a proxy that runs between my viewer and SL/OpenSim
[10:02]	Latha Serevi: 	(lagg)
[10:02]	Dahlia Trimble: 	and that dummy IM session connects to a jabber chat room
[10:02]	Wut: aha, you're all back again :) 	Wut: aha, you're all back again :)
[10:02]	Latha Serevi: 	wtf, two messages lost (long ones)
[10:02]	Dahlia Trimble: 	when a message comes thru, a new IM tab appears and all the chat from that room is available in that tab
[10:02]	Dahlia Trimble: 	just like a normal group chat tab
[10:03]	Jonathan Yap: 	How are you capturing the arriving sl IMs?
[10:03]	Dahlia Trimble: 	given that the jabber server is a separate entity from SL or OpenSim it doesnt matter where I am logged in, I can still access the same room
[10:03]	Dahlia Trimble: 	any questions?
[10:04]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Nope. Works fine.
[10:04]	Latha Serevi: 	I find it interseting that Emerald does the similar thing (chat relay to IRC) as a compilied-in addon, that ends up looking about the same. Greg was saying that he might rather do it as a proxy next time.
[10:04]	Dahlia Trimble: 	so I released the code as a LGPL licensed plugin for the libomv gridproxy and it's available here: http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/jabberimproxy/
[10:04]	Latha Serevi: 	And of course there's Latif's approach to bridging, that has a separate agent connect to both worlds and do the relay.
[10:04]	Latif Khalifa: 	i don't think emerald relays, just basically adds irc client to viewer
[10:05]	Latha Serevi: 	Latif, you're right
[10:05]	Dahlia Trimble: 	not that it's really intended for developers and it's not user friendly at all
[10:05]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I've added to the agenda some ideas on how to make it user-friendly.
[10:05]	Latha Serevi: 	Morgaine's ideas are on how to make the proxy act more like a plugin, I think.
[10:05]	Rex Cronon: 	lafif. u run those bots locally on you computer?
[10:05]	Dahlia Trimble: 	I wish diva was here, she has her "grider" project which takes proxy based interop to a higher level
[10:06]	Latif Khalifa: 	Rex, on a server actually
[10:06]	Latha Serevi: 	An interesting alternative is the way Par works -- you start it, and it starts your viewer. It's configuration free and easy, worked surprisingly well.
[10:06]	Dahlia Trimble: 	I asked her to come but I think she had a conflict in her schedule
[10:06]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yep. The general idea is that the main viewer should act as the networking endpoint, to adhere to the principle of least surprise for users.
[10:07]	xstorm Radek: 	i home some one reads the US-CERT some time
[10:07]	xstorm Radek: 	im off to nap
[10:07]	xstorm Radek: 	laterz
[10:07]	Wut: laters 	Wut: laters
[10:07]	Rex Cronon: 	tc xstorm
[10:07]	Dahlia Trimble: 	bye :)
[10:07]	Morgaine Dinova: 	It can then route stuff in and out of proxy processes, without them being IP routers.
[10:08]	Latha Serevi: 	Morgaine, that would avoid the hackiness of the current libomv reverse engineering...
[10:08]	Latha Serevi: 	...but would impose a requirement on the viewer...
[10:08]	Meadhbh Oh: 	also. there's no reason a CALM message couldn't point you to a proxy
[10:08]	Dahlia Trimble: 	I've also often considered that gridproxy + plugins is somewhat analogous to the multi-process viewer architecture described on the SL wiki
[10:09]	Zha Ewry: 	How much have you looked at any ways of "prooving" people are who they say they are across the boundary
[10:09]	Latha Serevi: 	Zha, that's a worthy topic, but I suggest maybe for another time?
[10:09]	Meadhbh Oh: 	hmm.. hmm... yuo SHOULD be able to have a proxy that speaks VWRAP on one side and LLLP on the otehr
[10:09]	Zha Ewry: 	Sure.. just curious
[10:09]	Latha Serevi: 	i.e. it's an obvious next step for our IRC and XMPP bridging thing
[10:09]	Latha Serevi: 	Question: can SNOW-375 be implemented at the proxy level? Might have to be a thick viewer-like proxy in order to be able to expose the right API.
[10:09]	Morgaine Dinova: 	The LL viewers isn't a fixed point. It should be possible to get a transparent proxy thread into Snowglobe as a prototype, and in principle from there it could get into the main SL viewer.
[10:10]	Dahlia Trimble: 	well I believe XMPP can support some form of authentication, but I dont know the details
[10:10]	Latha Serevi: 	Morgaine++
[10:10]	Latha Serevi: 	...but we'll have to define how a filtering proxy works if it's not at the packet level...
[10:10]	Latha Serevi: 	...will there be multiple "kinds"?
[10:11]	Latha Serevi: 	i.e. an api for chat proxies, an api for 3-d munging proxies?
[10:11]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Zha: that question applies MUCH more widely, to interop between worlds in general :-)
[10:12]	Latha Serevi: 	Question, who has tried Par? If you haven't, may I suggest you watch the 2nd video at http://code.google.com/p/par/ to see what Greg's up to?
[10:12]	Latha Serevi: 	(I don't mean right this minute)
[10:12]	Dahlia Trimble: 	I tried it around a year ago, it had some fun features
[10:12]	Morgaine Dinova: 	It applies in RL too. When you speak on the phone with someone, you don't really know who you're speaking to, unless it's someone from a small circle of people whose voices you know. And even then ...
[10:12]	Latha Serevi: 	F'rinstance, he adds a radar feature to the proxy ... but then needs to load up an in-world scripted object in order to do most features.
[10:13]	Dahlia Trimble: 	I borrowed the sit anywhere idea for my personal proxy
[10:13]	Latha Serevi: 	doubleclick teleport is hacked on top of the "navigate to this spot" packet.
[10:13]	Latha Serevi: 	(I think)
[10:14]	Latha Serevi: 	(i.e. Par could only do doubleclick TP because a similar feature was in most viewers already)
[10:14]	Meadhbh Oh: 	hey dahlia. how many man hours did your proxy take you to develop? roughly?
[10:14]	Dahlia Trimble: 	really not many as I was already familiar with most of what was needed
[10:14]	Dahlia Trimble: 	maybe a couple days
[10:14]	Latif Khalifa: 	you mean all of gridproxy, or jabber plugin for it?
[10:14]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Notice that when implemented as in the last section of the agenda, the same mechanism supports both true proxy processes (filters) and also backend extension plugins. No need for two different systems.
[10:15]	Dahlia Trimble: 	just the jabber plugin
[10:15]	Latha Serevi: 	Morgaine, are you glossing over a lot of complexity in how the plugin APIs need to be defined?
[10:16]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I haven't referred to API at all, other than mentioning SNOW-375 as a possibility
[10:16]	Dahlia Trimble: 	I have another plugin that filters group, IM, and normal chat and vectors it off to a personal XMPP server, and I use it so I can have a large-font chat window on another screen
[10:16]	Meadhbh Oh: 	hmm.i really should do an auth proxy that knows vwrap auth off one side and XMLRPC out the other
[10:16]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Only referring to the routing architecture at this point.
[10:16]	Latha Serevi: 	Right, I"m just concerned that if we take the plugin approach, somehow all the viewer creators have to agree.
[10:16]	Meadhbh Oh: 	just realized i could do it without touching the client
[10:16]	Dahlia Trimble: 	so I borrowed some code from that proxy
[10:16]	Latif Khalifa: 	gridproxy is about 4 years old now, its main initial purpose was to be a tool for reverse engineer SL protocol, way back when, but as you can see with par and dahlia's work it found many other interesting uses
[10:16]	Meadhbh Oh: 	since pixel has been doing a good job on client stuff for vwrap
[10:17]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Latha: not really necessary to find agreement. Viewer developers will pick it up if it's good, and won't if it's bad. Agreeing in advance of knowing whether it's a good idea is probably not useful. Let it speak for itself.
[10:18]	Latif Khalifa: 	Meadhbh, that work seem to have stalled
[10:18]	Latha Serevi: 	crap, my chat isn't going thru
[10:18]	Meadhbh Oh: 	right. cause there's no one to manage vaak since i left
[10:18]	Dahlia Trimble: 	lol
[10:18]	Latha Serevi: 	One HUGE advantage of the short-term libomv packet proxy approach
[10:19]	Meadhbh Oh: 	if there was a proxy that could do it, i bet i could ask nice and convince her to spentd a little time on it
[10:19]	Latha Serevi: 	dammit
[10:19]	Latha Serevi: 	wtf.
[10:19]	Latha Serevi: 	some things I say just won't go thru.
[10:19]	Latif Khalifa: 	Meadhbh, jhurliman asked, was told pixel is working on other projects now
[10:19]	Meadhbh Oh: 	big brother linden may be watching?
[10:20]	Latif Khalifa: 	nobody is working on anything vwrap related client side
[10:20]	Latif Khalifa: 	(that i know of)
[10:20]	LathaSerevi: Maybe I'll type over here for a while. 	LathaSerevi: Maybe I'll type over here for a while.
[10:20]	Meadhbh Oh: 	okay. well we code the proxy to use the version of VWRAP /OGP auth that's already in the viewer
[10:20]	LathaSerevi: \ 	LathaSerevi: \
[10:21]	Meadhbh Oh: 	then we loop around, make a diff between OGP and VWRAP and ask someone to work on it
[10:21]	Latha Serevi: 	Shall we take a moment on the long-term view of proxies?
[10:21]	Zha Ewry: 	that would be good, I think
[10:21]	Latha Serevi: 	One thought is, they're a hiccup, a dinosaur.
[10:21]	Latha Serevi: 	I'm thinking that a better answer than proxies, in the longer term, might be a flexible loosely coupled client, with an API of some kind, that talks VWRAP to a federation of services. Proxies, if any, would be more narrowly focused.
[10:21]	Wut nods 	Wut nods
[10:21]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Well as Dahlia pointed out, proxies are just a limited form of the multi-process client.
[10:22]	Wut: on the other hand, proxies would be a powerful research vehical 	Wut: on the other hand, proxies would be a powerful research vehical
[10:22]	Latha Serevi: 	However, that clean-sounding claim I just made may well be crap.
[10:22]	Latif Khalifa: 	Latha, in my view, all this talk about proxies is because of (lack of) progress of vwrap, or "the real interop"
[10:22]	David Valerian: 	I have to go, There is en emergency that I need to tend to. Will the rest of this discussion be available on the Wiki for later viewing?
[10:22]	Wut: yep 	Wut: yep
[10:22]	Latif Khalifa: 	and people want to communicate across world boundaries
[10:22]	Latha Serevi: 	we'll make it so, David, seeya
[10:22]	Meadhbh Oh: 	cheers david
[10:22]	Dahlia Trimble: 	gridproxy is an amazing research tool but has some limitations
[10:22]	Wut: tc david 	Wut: tc david
[10:22]	Rex Cronon: 	tc
[10:22]	David Valerian: 	Awesome, Bye bye
[10:22]	Meadhbh Oh: 	vwrap is going to take a while
[10:22]	Meadhbh Oh: 	it's not an overnight thign
[10:23]	Latha Serevi: 	Latif, I think you're falling for the clean fallacy. Proxies seem less clean, because they're not explicitly recognized as such by the viewer code ... but that's also their strength, right?
[10:23]	Meadhbh Oh: 	everyone has to get their say on the list
[10:23]	Dahlia Trimble: 	for one, it's lack of user friendliness... though there have been attempts to make it friendlier
[10:23]	Meadhbh Oh: 	etc etc
[10:23]	Meadhbh Oh: 	i can't work on simian grid for another three months
[10:23]	Latha Serevi: 	If we insist on clean interaction with all sides knowing what's going on, there's a huge coordination problem.
[10:23]	Latif Khalifa: 	Meadhbh, "overnight"... i mean a solution that takes less than a decade
[10:23]	Meadhbh Oh: 	linden seems to have put it on mothballs for another 6 months
[10:23]	Latif Khalifa: 	you have to move on internet time
[10:24]	Latha Serevi: 	If we allow various endpoints to be cluelessly participating ...
[10:24]	Meadhbh Oh: 	considering the fact that a decade hasn't expired since the formation of the working group, that's kind of an insulting statement
[10:24]	Latha Serevi: 	using a given protocol, and allow proxies to play evil games
[10:24]	Meadhbh Oh: 	okay. so latif won't be participating. okay
[10:24]	Latha Serevi: 	... with them, mashups are more possible
[10:25]	Meadhbh Oh: 	there's no requirement that you do
[10:25]	Latif Khalifa: 	Meadhbh, awg -> ogp -> vwrap is two years already, isn't it?
[10:25]	Meadhbh Oh: 	and yeah. i get it, if there's activity, you might be more interested
[10:25]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Latha: I think you'll find that self-organization works fine, without prior all-round agreement. Jarilo is a good example, as was Hypergrid.
[10:25]	Meadhbh Oh: 	awg != ogp
[10:25]	Meadhbh Oh: 	ogp != vwrap
[10:25]	Latif Khalifa: 	really? gee
[10:25]	Zha Ewry: 	There's a clear progression
[10:25]	Zha Ewry: 	but they are not coupled
[10:26]	Meadhbh Oh: 	and also, if you're counting in binary then two years is a decade, perhaps
[10:26]	Latha Serevi: 	Meadhbh and Latif, please take a one minute timeout. :_o
[10:26]	Latha Serevi: 	(mostly kidding)
[10:26]	Latha Serevi: 	what's that, Zha?
[10:27]	Latif Khalifa: 	Meadhbh, I for the two years of effort, we got a login draft, 8 years left to complete something that has an actual client and grid to connect to
[10:27]	Latha Serevi kicks Latif 	Latha Serevi kicks Latif
[10:27]	Meadhbh Oh: 	latif's point is valid... though i find the way it was made slightly insulting
[10:27]	Morgaine Dinova: 	We spent a long time giving VWRAP a wider remit than OGP ever had, so what was said above is quite right.
[10:27]	Zha Ewry: 	There is a defintie progressino of ideas fromt heo ne to the next
[10:27]	Meadhbh Oh: 	yes. wow. look at all the work you put into vaak, latif
[10:27]	Latha Serevi kicks Meadhbh 	Latha Serevi kicks Meadhbh
[10:27]	Meadhbh Oh: 	how much time did _you_ spend on it
[10:27]	Wut: okay i'm not liking the tone of this 	Wut: okay i'm not liking the tone of this
[10:27]	Meadhbh Oh: 	?
[10:27]	Zha Ewry: 	Hey!
[10:27]	Zha Ewry: 	Easy peeps
[10:27]	Meadhbh Oh: 	yeah. i'll argue with latif offline
[10:28]	Meadhbh Oh: 	or out of band
[10:28]	Wut: yeah, if you could 	Wut: yeah, if you could
[10:28]	Latha Serevi: 	Zha, what progression?
[10:28]	Meadhbh Oh: 	i'll totally agree with the statement, we havet o move faster on the vwrap sude though
[10:28]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Or not at all, since the past of OGP is irrelevant. VWRAP is a different kettle of fish.
[10:28]	Meadhbh Oh: 	s/sude/side/
[10:29]	Latha Serevi: 	Any other summary style comments from folks? Perhaps we're winding down slightly early at a natural stopping point?
[10:29]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Latha: last two sections of agenda
[10:29]	Morgaine Dinova: 	What other problems were there with the proxy approach?
[10:30]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I only reeled off a few, no doubt there are others.
[10:30]	Meadhbh Oh: 	no. i think it was a pretty good discussion
[10:30]	Latha Serevi: 	To me, the main limitation is that it's a packet mangling approach, so can't really initiate new stuff.
[10:30]	Meadhbh Oh: 	the style seemed about normal for a groupies meeting
[10:30]	Dahlia Trimble: 	well it's not a common way to program things
[10:31]	Latif Khalifa: 	the common problems section...
[10:31]	Wut: it gives you some options, ultimately we're going to need a test server that we can extend 	Wut: it gives you some options, ultimately we're going to need a test server that we can extend
[10:31]	Latha Serevi: 	To me, the main advantage is that it leaves the endpoints untouched, so is great for quick-n-dirty adapters.
[10:31]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Latha: only the pure proxy filter is a packet mangling approach, Plan B in the agenda doesn't have that restriction
[10:31]	Latif Khalifa: 	i think a lot of it has to do with user friendliness
[10:31]	Dahlia Trimble: 	but there is one nice advantage, it works with any viewer
[10:31]	Latif Khalifa: 	but i could imagine you could get a pre-packaged viewer + proxy
[10:31]	Latif Khalifa: 	to make it nice and easy
[10:32]	Latif Khalifa: 	so when you start it it does what par does basically
[10:32]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Dahlia: true, but another way of restating that is "Its is limited by the capabilities of viewers".
[10:32]	Latif Khalifa: 	starts the proxy which in turn auto starts the viewer
[10:32]	Meadhbh Oh: 	it's at least another tool in the toolkit. latif, if it doesn't work on a friendliness basis, maybe there's work that can be done to improve it, or maybe it's a solution for specific niche applications
[10:32]	Wut: and by the capabilities of the servers... 	Wut: and by the capabilities of the servers...
[10:32]	Latif Khalifa: 	and wooptie you got yourself proxy based interop viewer
[10:32]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Latif: indeed. In other words, the proxy *IS* the viewer, and the viewer becomes its plugin :-)
[10:32]	Latha Serevi: 	Morgaine, I find your proposal to dilute the "proxy" notion into more of a "plugin" notion, so it becomes a less clear idea to me.
[10:32]	Dahlia Trimble: 	Im not sure Morgaine, it also enables new capabilities in viewers
[10:33]	Latha Serevi: 	I like how the libomv proxy so clearly elucidates the pros and cons of a raw proxy approach.
[10:33]	Latif Khalifa: 	Morg, exactly
[10:33]	Latif Khalifa: 	and you can have proxy window that manages plugins, etc, a-la par
[10:34]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Latha: the problems with proxies actually stem from it being an IP router, not from it being refactored functionality. What I'm doing is keeping the benefits while losing the problems of the proxy approach.
[10:34]	Dahlia Trimble: 	Robin made a nice little proxy program that makes it more user friendly, her "tray proxy"
[10:35]	Latha Serevi: 	Morgaine, I just think that you're losing the most important benefit: universality. I can't just take any old client and add to it, I have to add a plugin infrastructure and recompile.
[10:36]	Latha Serevi: 	(I realize the hope is that every viewer will have such a thing)
[10:36]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Latha: universaiity is a PROBLEM. It means you can't advance, because you're limited by the need for backwards compatibility.
[10:36]	Latha Serevi: 	style="white-space:normal;"
[10:36]	Latha Serevi: 	Oh, hey, I think I have one more important-feeling idea to bring up.
[10:36]	Latha Serevi: 	Par is a "thin" proxy. SNOW-375, when taken to an extreme, would be a "thick" proxy more like a headless viewer.
[10:37]	Latha Serevi: 	("thick" meaning has more state, controls more of the sim interaction, etc)
[10:37]	Latha Serevi: 	Is this making sense?
[10:37]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yup
[10:37]	Wut nods 	Wut nods
[10:37]	Latha Serevi: 	Should we think of a "thick" user-agent, headless, as something to shoot for?
[10:37]	Dahlia Trimble: 	somewhat
[10:37]	Wut: yes 	Wut: yes
[10:38]	Wut: with a headless user agent, we can worry about 3d interaction as a separate project 	Wut: with a headless user agent, we can worry about 3d interaction as a separate project
[10:38]	Wut: which i'm quite happy to set up 	Wut: which i'm quite happy to set up
[10:38]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Perhaps "thick" ought to be replaced by a more technical term, something about functionality
[10:38]	Wut: the biggest issue i'm having with even starting a viewer is i'd rather do it from scratch, and dealing with all the SL bums and crocks is a pain :)	Wut: the biggest issue i'm having with even starting a viewer is i'd rather do it from scratch, and dealing with all the SL bums and crocks is a pain :)
[10:38]	Dahlia Trimble: 	I've often wanted the SL renderer to be a self contained component licensed as LGPL
[10:38]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Remove the UI. What else can be removed?
[10:38]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Dahlia++
[10:39]	Wut: Dahlia, agreed 	Wut: Dahlia, agreed
[10:39]	Wut: plus that way you can swap in other renderer projects 	Wut: plus that way you can swap in other renderer projects
[10:39]	Latif Khalifa: 	that'll never happen of course :P
[10:39]	Wut: latif: 	hush :P
[10:39]	Latif Khalifa: 	not with the linden viewer anyway
[10:39]	Latha Serevi: 	And I wonder if the user-agent (what we think of as the innards of the viewer) should be a lot less thick than it currently is, or not. Will it have the local notion of the current neighborhood scenegraph in it?
[10:39]	Wut: never with the linden viewer, naturally ;) 	Wut: never with the linden viewer, naturally ;)
[10:40]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Worth noting that if the UI is removed from the thick client, the V2.0 problems disappear at a stroke too ^_^
[10:40]	Rex Cronon: 	dahlia. u need an interface:)
[10:40]	Zha Ewry: 	I don' tthink that the vwrap spec will necrssarily require it
[10:40]	Wut: Morg++ 	Wut: Morg++
[10:40]	Latha Serevi: 	(i.e. there's a notion that the sim streams updates to our local box. so, does the thick user-agent act as the local endpoint for that streaming, and keep a notion of VW state?)
[10:40]	Wut: it depends how hairy it is 	Wut: it depends how hairy it is
[10:40]	Latif Khalifa: 	it has to
[10:40]	Dahlia Trimble: 	Rex, if the renderer was a component then interface design would be much more flexible
[10:41]	Wut: it could transform and forward messages specific to the renderer, for e.g. 	Wut: it could transform and forward messages specific to the renderer, for e.g.
[10:41]	Latha Serevi: 	So, a useful focal point is "the local-box software component that maintains local VW state". A proxy sits on the sim-side of that component; the UI sits on the user-side of it.
[10:41]	Rex Cronon: 	using uml to design a 3d renderer component...
[10:42]	Wut: something like that. i'm not particularly keen on faffing around in the user-agent to manage the scenegraph, that's sort of the renderer's job 	Wut: something like that. i'm not particularly keen on faffing around in the user-agent to manage the scenegraph, that's sort of the renderer's job
[10:42]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I'm not even sure the renderer process should be the endpoint. The current monolithic design doesn't allow for multiple views for example. Really in MVC terminology, the endpoint should be the Model, not the View.
[10:42]	Wut: nono, the renderer needn't be an endpoint 	Wut: nono, the renderer needn't be an endpoint
[10:42]	Latha Serevi: 	Agreed, Morgaine, renderer is on the viewer-side of the "local state maintaining" component.
[10:43]	Latha Serevi: 	**user-side
[10:43]	Wut: but it needs to keep its latency to a minimum, unlike *cough* the current viewers 	Wut: but it needs to keep its latency to a minimum, unlike *cough* the current viewers
[10:43]	Zha Ewry: 	Note that a bunchg oif this is more about "How to build a cliewnt" then the protovcol it speeks
[10:43]	Latha Serevi: 	Anybody have a good name for the local state maintaining endpoint, other than "headless viewer" or "local user-agent"?
[10:44]	Rex Cronon: 	grid connector?
[10:44]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yep. The endpoint of a VW client should really just be a local representation of agent state, and present an API to everything that might need to communicate with the agent or the world.
[10:44]	Rex Cronon: 	or "grid agent"?
[10:44]	Wut: grid agent, maybe. it's more than just a connector 	Wut: grid agent, maybe. it's more than just a connector
[10:44]	Latha Serevi: 	Zha, I mostly disagree. F'rinstance, on the network side of the "headless viewer" is a protocol.... but on the user side is also a protocol of sorts, that we're calling an API...
[10:44]	Latif Khalifa: 	Morgaine, you're describing libomv's GridClient :P
[10:45]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Zha: Dzon made some interesting points on VWRAP that *do* impact on the protocol, such as the fact that more than one network endpoint is needed for the same agent session.
[10:46]	Latha Serevi: 	Latif: Yep, libomv provides a couple of the most vivid examples of points on the thin-to-thick proxy spectrum ....
[10:46]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Latif: could you describe "GridClient" pls?
[10:46]	Latif Khalifa: 	it's the main object of the libomv based clients
[10:46]	Zha Ewry: 	There are bits which do
[10:46]	Latif Khalifa: 	it maintains agent state, world state (object tracker, sim tracker, nearby user tracker)
[10:46]	Zha Ewry: 	Mostly making sure you can ask for less then the whole world
[10:46]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Latif: ah, OK
[10:47]	Latif Khalifa: 	it doesn't do much anything in the way of presenting it, it provides APi for applications writers to represent that state to the user in the way they find most appropriate
[10:47]	Latha Serevi: 	I love how libomv is an example (a hacky, SL packet stream compatible example) of some things that we want to deal with in VWRAP.
[10:48]	Meadhbh Oh: 	kk. i've got to run (literally)
[10:48]	Meadhbh Oh: 	going for my morning jog on the beach
[10:48]	Latha Serevi: 	cya Mead
[10:48]	Wut: seeya meadhbh 	Wut: seeya meadhbh
[10:48]	Rex Cronon: 	tc meadhbh
[10:48]	Latif Khalifa: 	take care Mead
[10:48]	Dahlia Trimble: 	bye :)
[10:48]	Meadhbh Oh: 	havea good one folks.
[10:48]	Meadhbh Oh: 	and once more, sorry for blowing up at you latif
[10:48]	Roland Riddler: 	byes
[10:48]	Meadhbh Oh: 	your points are well taken
[10:48]	Latif Khalifa: 	no worries ;)
[10:48]	Dahlia Trimble: 	Brrrrrr... SF beaches
[10:49]	Rex Cronon: 	didn't he move to alaska:)
[10:49]	Zha Ewry: 	The pacific is impressivlely cold at the latitude of Santa Cruz
[10:49]	Latif Khalifa: 	i've got plenty of things going not to get upset at "what have *you* done" sort of comments :P
[10:50]	Zha Ewry chuckles 	Zha Ewry chuckles
[10:50]	Zha Ewry: 	Not terribly construtive
[10:50]	Latha Serevi: 	Thanks so much, gang, for participating in my topic -- my thinking has made some progress today...
[10:50]	Zha Ewry: 	Thanks for coming and sharing
[10:50]	Wut: np, it's been a particularly interesting one latha 	Wut: np, it's been a particularly interesting one latha
[10:51]	Latif Khalifa: 	Zha, which?
[10:51]	Zha Ewry: 	Mea's trantrum
[10:51]	Latif Khalifa: 	heh
[10:51]	Latif Khalifa: 	we know her well :)
[10:51]	Zha Ewry: 	Indeed
[10:51]	Zha Ewry: 	Just not constructive
[10:51]	Latif Khalifa: 	and i am frustrated by the pace of progress
[10:51]	Zha Ewry: 	We all are, I think
[10:52]	Zha Ewry: 	And Linden's currently feeling somewhat feckless
[10:52]	Rex Cronon: 	what would be considered progress?
[10:53]	Latif Khalifa: 	Zha, is anyone besides Joshua involved with the vwrap from linden side?
[10:53]	Dahlia Trimble: 	Zero?
[10:53]	Zha Ewry: 	attm? Not clear. Zero is watching the mail stream, but I'm ont seeing much action.
[10:53]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Would be interesting if we could work on the design, and on coding. What I proposed in the last section of the agenda is how I believe VWRAP functionality should have been added to Snowglobe. I keep getting into the hint of an argument with Pixel about the way it was truly hacked (merged) into Snowglobe, instead of VWRAP functionality being decoupled.
[10:53]	Latha Serevi: 	I think it's hard to make a standards process that leads rather than lags. Hopefully we can do more wiring-together of stuff, cheesy proxies, etc, and then clean it up later.
[10:54]	Zha Ewry: 	It hink you need both at once
[10:54]	Zha Ewry: 	You push on both piles and
[10:54]	Latif Khalifa: 	there was some work from pixel (and other ibm'ers i think) on sg vwrap
[10:54]	Zha Ewry: 	over time the convrege
[10:54]	Zha Ewry: 	*they
[10:54]	Latif Khalifa: 	but nobody is doing it atm
[10:54]	Latif Khalifa: 	lindens got a token rep at vwrap
[10:54]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Latif: yeah, but it was merged into SG, and is so complex that even Merov doesn't understand it.
[10:54]	Zha Ewry: 	There's a reluctance to push on the Linden ecosystem without Linden playing
[10:54]	Latha Serevi: 	Hurli's doing it, but not too many other things going on...
[10:55]	Latha Serevi: 	...that are explicitly tying to vwrap
[10:55]	Dahlia Trimble: 	somehow I dont think it woudl be in LL's best interest to lose influence in VWRAP
[10:55]	Wut: but if LL don't provide input, why should they expect any influence? 	Wut: but if LL don't provide input, why should they expect any influence?
[10:55]	Zha Ewry: 	I'm planning on another pass on merhing post OGPX code into the openSIm module, as OpenSim settles down toward 0.7
[10:55]	Latif Khalifa: 	Hurli is trying to do server side of things, but he's helpless since there is no client dev at all
[10:55]	Zha Ewry: 	alas, that fate keeps moving
[10:55]	Zha Ewry: 	*date
[10:56]	Latha Serevi: 	Zha, interesting, that'll be good, do you have any hacking help available?
[10:56]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Getting Hurli to talk about what he does seems to be virtually impossible, sad to say. I'm hoping that the Jarilo bridge to #vwrap might help there, as he's loathe to write any descriptions to VWRAP m/l at all, despite saying he would.
[10:56]	Latif Khalifa: 	problem with vwrap interop code is not sim-side. it's 1) lack of specs, 2) lack of client support
[10:56]	Wut: latif++ 	Wut: latif++
[10:56]	Latha Serevi: 	Maybe we need a speaker-to-Hurli who can keep the communications more open.
[10:57]	Zha Ewry: 	Welll I plan on getting back into coding
[10:57]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Latif: lack of specs because we're inventing it as we go. Remember that Zero's OGP was a 5% spec, tops.
[10:57]	Latif Khalifa: 	Zha, what client will you test it with? :P
[10:57]	Zha Ewry: 	I can live with the current snowglobe/OGPX merge
[10:57]	Latha Serevi: 	Zha, would be nice to have one or two opensim hackers who are onboard with you to mess with the code. Sorry, that's not my area.
[10:57]	Zha Ewry: 	at least for a while
[10:58]	Zha Ewry: 	And I can draft pixel probably for some stugff as needed
[10:58]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I get on fine with Hurli, we've had several hour-long discussions in PM. Maybe I can write the text that he doesn't like writing :-)
[10:58]	Dahlia Trimble: 	the OpenSim dev community is usually quite approachable and helpful in the IRC channels or mailing lists
[10:58]	Zha Ewry: 	But, honestly, I'm going to start with a clean re-merge of the current oGPX stlyle code which should work with the version we had up end of last year
[10:58]	Latha Serevi: 	Zha, what might be a medium-term interop target for your new coding effort? Trying to see where your'e headed short term.
[10:59]	Zha Ewry: 	Up for discussion. I'm still negotiating inside my shop how we want to move in the absence of Linden motion
[10:59]	Dahlia Trimble: 	I think the OGP code is still in current OpenSim
[10:59]	Zha Ewry: 	But at a minimum I want to make sure the basix OGP code surives across 0.7
[10:59]	Zha Ewry: 	It will break at the 0.7 line at the moment
[11:00]	Zha Ewry: 	Diva and I chatted a little about that
[11:00]	Dahlia Trimble: 	it's probably broken now
[11:00]	Zha Ewry: 	The problem is 0.7 keeps receeding over the horizon
[11:00]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Zha: OGP would be a regression compared to VWRAP
[11:00]	Dahlia Trimble: 	I dont think anyone is maintaining it
[11:00]	Zha Ewry: 	Well
[11:00]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Full of singletons
[11:00]	Zha Ewry: 	It would be OGPX on the client side
[11:00]	Zha Ewry: 	probalbly al ittle less so on the sim side
[11:00]	Rex Cronon: 	ok. time 4 me to go 2 andrew's oh
[11:01]	Rex Cronon: 	tc everybody
[11:01]	Morgaine Dinova: 	11am, off to OSgrid
[11:01]	Latha Serevi: 	cya Rex.
[11:01]	Dahlia Trimble: 	bye :)
[11:01]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Cyu Rex
[11:01]	Zha Ewry: 	cya peoples
[11:01]	Latha Serevi: 	I'm gonna adjourn also, thanks!!!
[11:01]	Rex Cronon: 	have fun:)
[11:01]	Zha Ewry: 	No good reason I can't make sure the OGPX code on OpenSim isn't a superset of what's in ther enow
[11:01]	Zha Ewry: 	sso, get out of the singletones
[11:01]	Dahlia Trimble: 	me too, another meeting to go to... but I'll be connected to groupies chat via my proxy ;)
[11:02]	Latif Khalifa: 	see you dahlia :)
[11:02]	Dahlia Trimble: 	bye all :)