Agoraphobialog11062009

==Agoraphobia Support Group Log 11 06 2009==
[15:10] Roberto Salubrius: wellcome to our second meeting
[15:10] Roberto Salubrius: the agenda for today is 3 things basically
[15:11] Roberto Salubrius: 1-talk about the lucinda basset program ( but I don't know if someone made a presentation )
[15:11] Roberto Salubrius: 2-talk about the hyperventilation what is it realy
[15:11] Galvana Gustafson: I didn't... ;-)
[15:11] Roberto Salubrius: and some free time to speak
[15:11] Galvana Gustafson: I can do it off the cuff, so to speak
[15:11] Roberto Salubrius: for the ones that are just joing us the anxiety meter on top of our heads is to see how good or how bad we are doing
[15:12] Roberto Salubrius: even a virtual meeting can cause anxiety
[15:12] Roberto Salubrius: for us
[15:12] Roberto Salubrius: ok Galvana
[15:12] Roberto Salubrius: let me start with the hiperventilation
[15:12] Roberto Salubrius: then you go
[15:12] Galvana Gustafson: of course
[15:12] Roberto Salubrius: please set to play your media
[15:12] Roberto Salubrius: no need for Quicktime
[15:13] Roberto Salubrius: you should see something here that says hiperventilation and you
[15:13] Roberto Salubrius: if someone does not see it please say so
[15:13] Roberto Salubrius: if not I will start
[15:14] Roberto Salubrius: ok everyone hasit
[15:14] Moon Metty: yup
[15:14] Roberto Salubrius: ok you have heard about hyperventilation
[15:14] Tribal Nightfire: yes
[15:14] Mila Damiano: yes
[15:14] Roberto Salubrius: but maybe noone has sat down and given you a real explanation
[15:15] Roberto Salubrius: I am not a physician I had to get out of the last year of medical school due to my own agoraphobia
[15:15] Roberto Salubrius: but I have a bachellors degree on medical siences
[15:15] Roberto Salubrius: and this is medicine 101
[15:15] Roberto Salubrius: so I think I am qualified to explain this
[15:15] Roberto Salubrius: so let's start
[15:15] Roberto Salubrius: ok as with anything in medicine
[15:16] Roberto Salubrius: you should know first the physiology
[15:16] Roberto Salubrius: or how something works normally
[15:16] Roberto Salubrius: to understand how it works when it breaks
[15:16] Roberto Salubrius: so I'll explain the basics of breathing real fast
[15:16] Roberto Salubrius: breathing has 1 purpose
[15:16] Roberto Salubrius: well 2 really
[15:16] Roberto Salubrius: to place oxigen rich blood in our tissues
[15:17] Roberto Salubrius: and take out the blood that has less oxigen of our tissues
[15:17] Roberto Salubrius: so it takes in O2 ( oxigen )
[15:17] Roberto Salubrius: and removes ( CO2 ) ( carbon dioxied )
[15:17] Roberto Salubrius: it has other implications but we are keeping it simple
[15:18] Roberto Salubrius: BTW remember to update the meter when it flashes
[15:18] Roberto Salubrius: now every ADULT has a normal breathing pattern
[15:18] Roberto Salubrius: and a normal SPEED of breathing
[15:18] Roberto Salubrius: that is around 12 breaths each minute
[15:18] Roberto Salubrius: kids breath much faster
[15:18] Roberto Salubrius: but for us it is 12
[15:19] Roberto Salubrius: you can count the speed by looking how your chest or abdomen expands
[15:19] Roberto Salubrius: that counts for 1 breathing
[15:19] Roberto Salubrius: ok
[15:19] Roberto Salubrius: hyperventilation
[15:19] Roberto Salubrius: comes from the words
[15:19] Roberto Salubrius: hyper = quick fast
[15:19] Roberto Salubrius: ventilation = breath
[15:20] Roberto Salubrius: so basically it's a change on the SPEED of your breathing
[15:20] Roberto Salubrius: you breath faster
[15:20] Roberto Salubrius: breathing faster is not always bad and it's actually good
[15:20] Roberto Salubrius: when you make sports
[15:20] Roberto Salubrius: and you need more oxigen and to take out the CO2 faster
[15:20] Roberto Salubrius: that keeps us alive
[15:21] Roberto Salubrius: so it has a purpose to change the breathing pattern
[15:21] Roberto Salubrius: now.. I will talk about a thing called PH
[15:21] Roberto Salubrius: that's basically the relation between the amount of acid you have in your blood
[15:21] Roberto Salubrius: it is important because to work correctly
[15:21] Roberto Salubrius: your body needs a predefined PH
[15:21] Roberto Salubrius: of 7.4
[15:21] Roberto Salubrius: if it goes UP
[15:22] Roberto Salubrius: you get alcaline
[15:22] Roberto Salubrius: if it goes down
[15:22] Roberto Salubrius: you get acid
[15:22] Roberto Salubrius: on both cases your body will not work correctly
[15:22] Roberto Salubrius: this is important because hyperventilation when done in a way that is not correct
[15:22] Roberto Salubrius: alters the PH
[15:22] Roberto Salubrius: so
[15:23] Roberto Salubrius: thats the important part
[15:23] Roberto Salubrius: hyperventilation alters your PH
[15:23] Roberto Salubrius: and when you alter your PH
[15:23] Roberto Salubrius: your body does not function correctly
[15:23] Roberto Salubrius: I will explain more
[15:24] Roberto Salubrius: people think that the problem with hyperventilation is to have TOO much oxigen on your blood
[15:24] Roberto Salubrius: but that's not true
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[15:24] Roberto Salubrius: the problem is that you take out the CO2 of your organism real fast
[15:24] Roberto Salubrius: so... the CO2 goes down
[15:24] Roberto Salubrius: and behind me you can see a very simplified form of an equation
[15:25] Roberto Salubrius: as you can see if the CO2 ( PCO2 pressure of CO2 ) goes down
[15:25] Roberto Salubrius: PH goes up
[15:25] Roberto Salubrius: so we get alcaline
[15:25] Roberto Salubrius: PH > 7.4
[15:25] Roberto Salubrius: when we get alcaline things do not funtion correctly
[15:25] Moon Metty: i'm not sure if the formula is on the board Rob
[15:25] Roberto Salubrius: basically a lot of enzimes in your brain and the rest of your body
[15:25] Roberto Salubrius: there its moon ?
[15:26] Moon Metty: yes
[15:26] Roberto Salubrius: ok basically CO2 GOES DOWN -- PH goes up
[15:26] Roberto Salubrius: so the enzimes of your body can't function properly
[15:26] Roberto Salubrius: and what's intersting about this
[15:26] Roberto Salubrius: is that the cells that are more succeptible to PH changes are in the brain
[15:27] Roberto Salubrius: so your brain takes a toll ( this is not dangerous )
[15:27] Roberto Salubrius: but for instance you feel your balance affected
[15:27] Roberto Salubrius: your eyes start seeing weird
[15:27] Roberto Salubrius: ( you see things as if they where bigger or smaller )
[15:27] Roberto Salubrius: or different
[15:27] Roberto Salubrius: your thinking gets impaired
[15:27] Roberto Salubrius: your tought process gets impaired
[15:28] Roberto Salubrius: and many other things
[15:28] Roberto Salubrius: get affected
[15:28] Roberto Salubrius: and all because you are taking a lot of CO2 out
[15:28] Roberto Salubrius: thus making the PH high
[15:28] Roberto Salubrius: and making your blood alcaline
[15:28] Roberto Salubrius: every time you get anxious
[15:28] Roberto Salubrius: you can count you will breath faster
[15:29] Roberto Salubrius: because the fight-or-flight reaction gets triggered
[15:29] Roberto Salubrius: adrenaline rushes in your body
[15:29] Roberto Salubrius: and the body gets ready to act
[15:29] Roberto Salubrius: so it gets ready to breath faster to put moreeeeeeeeeee oxigen on the body
[15:29] Roberto Salubrius: but in the process
[15:29] Roberto Salubrius: CO2 goes away
[15:30] Roberto Salubrius: and causes most of our problems
[15:30] Roberto Salubrius: however this can be easily controled
[15:30] Roberto Salubrius: if you breath on a paper bag
[15:30] Roberto Salubrius: you recylce the CO2
[15:30] Roberto Salubrius: place it back in your body
[15:30] Roberto Salubrius: and regain homeostais ( normal PH funtion )
[15:30] Roberto Salubrius: personally I hate bags
[15:31] Roberto Salubrius: so I breath into a cup that I make by placing my hands together
[15:31] Moon Metty: ok
[15:31] Roberto Salubrius: but that's a quick intro on hyperventilation
[15:31] Roberto Salubrius: any questions?
[15:31] Moon Metty: are there other ways the pH can change?
[15:31] Roberto Salubrius: anyone ?
[15:31] Moon Metty: besides breathing?
[15:32] Roberto Salubrius: yes... it can change with the other part of the ecuation the HCO3
[15:32] Roberto Salubrius: that's the carbonic acid
[15:32] Roberto Salubrius: but that's controlled mostly on your kidneys
[15:32] Roberto Salubrius: if the carbonic acid goes up so does the PH
[15:32] Roberto Salubrius: however that control is slow
[15:33] Roberto Salubrius: and used mostly on cronic conditions on the body
[15:33] Moon Metty: ok thank you
[15:33] Roberto Salubrius: ok anyone else
[15:33] Roberto Salubrius: did I make myself clear ?
[15:33] Roberto Salubrius: was it to technical ?
[15:33] Galvana Gustafson: no, not too technical
[15:33] Mila Damiano: it was excellent, thank you
[15:33] Garlock Exonar: would teas and music as well as incense help with anxity and hypertention
[15:34] Roberto Salubrius: Garlock ok that's not part of the presentation but yes
[15:34] Roberto Salubrius: there are diuretic teas that make you pee
[15:34] Roberto Salubrius: and that helps your hypertension go down
[15:34] Roberto Salubrius: and music can help you relax and let go a bit
[15:34] Roberto Salubrius: that will help with anxiety
[15:34] Roberto Salubrius: there are also calmin teas
[15:35] Roberto Salubrius: like linden tea
[15:35] Roberto Salubrius: that can relax you
[15:35] Roberto Salubrius: but once again in hyperventilation
[15:35] Roberto Salubrius: the PH changes are so fast
[15:35] Roberto Salubrius: that you never even notice them until you are out of control
[15:36] Roberto Salubrius: however if you get to see yourself breathing fast
[15:36] Roberto Salubrius: at an early stage
[15:36] Roberto Salubrius: and conciously manage it
[15:36] Roberto Salubrius: you will start taking control of your anxiety/panic
[15:36] Roberto Salubrius: anything else?
[15:36] Roberto Salubrius: to give the floor to galvana ?
[15:37] Galvana Gustafson: I don't need the whole floor -- just a tiny piece! ;-)
[15:37] Roberto Salubrius: lol
[15:37] Roberto Salubrius: ok
[15:37] Roberto Salubrius: thank you I hope you enjoyed the micro presentation about hyperventilation and you can remember it when you are anxious next time
[15:37] Roberto Salubrius: galvana your floor
[15:37] Moon Metty: thanks Rob
[15:37] Roberto Salubrius: ( or a piece of it )
[15:37] Tribal Nightfire: thanks
[15:37] Galvana Gustafson: thanks Roberto
[15:37] Mila Damiano: thank you so much
[15:37] Galvana Gustafson: ;-)
[15:37] Roberto Salubrius: yw
[15:38] Galvana Gustafson: I like it back here!
[15:38] Galvana Gustafson: ;-)
[15:38] Galvana Gustafson: I know that some of you said you're famliar with Lucinda Bassett's program?
[15:38] Galvana Gustafson: *familiar
[15:39] Galvana Gustafson: I was lucky, being able to use it in a hospital setting before it went "informercial"
[15:39] Galvana Gustafson: so I had extra help with it
[15:40] Galvana Gustafson: Lucinda teaches a great deal of things, so there's no way I could possibly touch on every topic she addresses
[15:40] Galvana Gustafson: but the main one is something Roberto actually alluded to toward the end of his presentation
[15:41] Galvana Gustafson: and that is CONTROL
[15:41] Mila Damiano: sorry Galvana I crashed
[15:41] Galvana Gustafson: as agoraphobics and people with panic attacks, we have given over control of our bodies TO our bodies
[15:41] Moon Metty: welcome back Mila
[15:41] Galvana Gustafson: np Mila!
[15:42] Galvana Gustafson: ;-)
[15:42] Roberto Salubrius: wb mila
[15:42] Mila Damiano: ty
[15:42] Galvana Gustafson: we actually let our bodies tell us what we should think and feel
[15:42] Galvana Gustafson: we have to put stop to that
[15:43] Galvana Gustafson: WE are in control... NOT our bodies!
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[15:43] Galvana Gustafson: it's a difficult concept, I suppose, as it is physiological
[15:44] Galvana Gustafson: but truly, we can have just as much or as little control over what we listen to from our bodies as we like
[15:44] Galvana Gustafson: I had to learn to take charge, and not let my anxiety boss me around anymore
[15:45] Galvana Gustafson: one of the very first things that Dr Joel said to me about my agoraphobia and anxiety really ticked me off but off
[15:45] Galvana Gustafson: *but good
[15:45] Galvana Gustafson: (sorry!)
[15:45] Galvana Gustafson: he asked me what I was GAINING from my agoraphobia and anxiety!
[15:46] Galvana Gustafson: I was "ABOSOLUTELY NOTHING!" "it's TAKING things from me!"
[15:46] Galvana Gustafson: *absolutely
[15:46] Galvana Gustafson: he insisted that I must be gaining something from it, to let it hang around so much
[15:47] Galvana Gustafson: I wanted to bop him on the head!
[15:47] Galvana Gustafson: but eventually, I learned he was right
[15:47] Galvana Gustafson: I *was* gaining something from it
[15:47] Galvana Gustafson: I didn't have any real responsibilities, because I was convinced that I couldn't handle them
[15:48] Galvana Gustafson: I was much like a child
[15:48] Galvana Gustafson: and blaming everything on the agoraphobia and panic attacks
[15:48] Galvana Gustafson: it sounds odd in the beginning, but it was a convenient scapegoat
[15:49] Galvana Gustafson: I didn't have to say "I don't WANT to.." I just said "I CAN'T!"
[15:49] Galvana Gustafson: gain
[15:49] Galvana Gustafson: I hated it when he accused me of it, but he was right
[15:50] Galvana Gustafson: getting your life back means taking back your responsibilities
[15:50] Roberto Salubrius: true
[15:50] Galvana Gustafson: and I finally realized that I WANTED those responsibilities!!
[15:50] Galvana Gustafson: I had to get angry with it
[15:50] Galvana Gustafson: do any of you allow yourselves to get angry with the anxiety?
[15:51] Galvana Gustafson: for pushing you around?
[15:51] Moon Metty: not really
[15:51] Galvana Gustafson: smacking your hand and saying, "you can't do that!"
[15:51] Moon Metty: i rarely get angry in general
[15:51] Galvana Gustafson: you don't get angry, Moon?
[15:51] Roberto Salubrius: I get angry........... with it, but it's a struggle
[15:51] Moon Metty: no, i don't
[15:52] Galvana Gustafson: that's something else we do... we avoid feeling -- we just have panic attacks instead
[15:52] Roberto Salubrius: I have no control over emotions so angry, happy, sad, frustraded all feel like anxiety
[15:52] Galvana Gustafson: feelings are going to come out one way or another
[15:52] Galvana Gustafson: exactly!
[15:53] Galvana Gustafson: we let everything become anxiety
[15:53] Galvana Gustafson: instead of owning the feelings for what they are
[15:53] Galvana Gustafson: that was a bit much to hit you with to start with...
[15:53] Galvana Gustafson: but think about it
[15:53] Galvana Gustafson: see if it doesn't benefit you in some way
[15:54] Galvana Gustafson: and I'd like to share a small story
[15:54] Galvana Gustafson: one of my first outings with Dr Joel -- my first exposure to triggers
[15:54] Galvana Gustafson: ONE of the first
[15:55] Galvana Gustafson: I was afraid to drive
[15:55] Galvana Gustafson: AND I was afraid of bridges
[15:55] Galvana Gustafson: so Dr Joel drove me over the bridge from Memphis TN to West Memphis, Arkansas
[15:55] Galvana Gustafson: I had to keep him updated on my anxiety level
[15:56] Galvana Gustafson: when it got really high, he pulled over on the bridge
[15:56] Galvana Gustafson: he had me open the car door, and SPIT on that bridge!
[15:56] Moon Metty: :)
[15:56] Galvana Gustafson: it "grounded" me. in more ways than one!
[15:57] Galvana Gustafson: I realized -- it's just steel and concrete
[15:57] Galvana Gustafson: and I could SPIT on it any time I wanted!!
[15:57] Galvana Gustafson: somehow, it became less scary
[15:58] Galvana Gustafson: I'd look out the hospital window and look at the bridge and laugh
[15:58] Galvana Gustafson: knowing my spit was on it!
[15:58] Galvana Gustafson: ;-)
[15:58] Roberto Salubrius: :)
[15:58] Galvana Gustafson: being able to bring yourself to a level where you feel grounded is very important
[15:59] Galvana Gustafson: it gives you something to think about other than your rising anxiety level
[15:59] Galvana Gustafson: brings reality into focus
[16:00] Galvana Gustafson: there is SO much to the program, and what Dr Joel did with me... but that;s for starters anyway!
[16:00] Galvana Gustafson: *that's
[16:00] Galvana Gustafson: questions, anyone?
[16:00] Roberto Salubrius: yes I know our time is up since the meeting is 1 hour but we started a bit late
[16:00] Galvana Gustafson: yep...
[16:01] Moon Metty: i have a question
[16:01] Galvana Gustafson: but my door is always open
[16:01] Galvana Gustafson: sure Moon!
[16:01] Roberto Salubrius: I am working with a program called don't panic by Dr Reid Wilson... he talks about getting in control and actually confront the agoraphobia
[16:01] Roberto Salubrius: that's the same on the lucinda's program ??
[16:01] Galvana Gustafson: I'm familiar with that, Roberto
[16:01] Galvana Gustafson: oh yes
[16:02] Galvana Gustafson: you're talaking about exposure therapy?
[16:02] Galvana Gustafson: or oimmersion therapy?
[16:02] Galvana Gustafson: *immersion
[16:02] Roberto Salubrius: more than that to actually want to get anxious and look for anxiety
[16:02] Galvana Gustafson nods
[16:02] Galvana Gustafson: I did that, but in a different way
[16:03] Galvana Gustafson: Dr Joel once ORDERED me to have a pnic attack
[16:03] Galvana Gustafson: I couldn't do it
[16:03] Galvana Gustafson: *panic
[16:03] Galvana Gustafson: there was NO way I could panic while TRYING to
[16:04] Galvana Gustafson: which, of course, makes you think that the reverse could be true
[16:04] Roberto Salubrius: yes it's the same approach it seems
[16:04] Galvana Gustafson: pretty much!
[16:04] Galvana Gustafson: it works
[16:04] Roberto Salubrius: run towards the roar...
[16:04] Roberto Salubrius: but damn it's hard
[16:05] Roberto Salubrius: and when you do it then you feel so tired and confuse and bad
[16:05] Galvana Gustafson: yeah... but once you take that first step... it's much easier than you think
[16:05] Roberto Salubrius: at least that's what has been going on with me for the last 2-3 weeks
[16:05] Galvana Gustafson: you're conditioned to THINK that running towards it is bad
[16:06] Galvana Gustafson: anxiety does that
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[16:06] Roberto Salubrius: I go out or try to go out alone around my home every day... and I feel so bad...
[16:06] Roberto Salubrius: what bothers me the most is that I rock... from side to side so I get all dizzy
[16:06] Galvana Gustafson: yes, I know... but doesn't part of you think you are SUPPOSED to feel bad while doing that?
[16:06] Roberto Salubrius: yes
[16:07] Roberto Salubrius: of course
[16:07] Galvana Gustafson: nerve rocking?
[16:07] Roberto Salubrius: no no idea I just rock from side to side as if was on a boat I can explain all my anxiety sympthoms but that one.
[16:07] Roberto Salubrius: I have to ask some friend to see why is that
[16:07] Galvana Gustafson: oh, so you don't PHYSICALLY rock?
[16:08] Roberto Salubrius: yes I move
[16:08] Roberto Salubrius: from side to side
[16:08] Galvana Gustafson: that's probably nerves
[16:08] Roberto Salubrius: no idea why I can't stop it or control it
[16:08] Galvana Gustafson: from being anxioues
[16:08] Galvana Gustafson: *anxious
[16:08] Roberto Salubrius: I suppose
[16:08] Roberto Salubrius: or the acidocis playing with my inner ear
[16:08] Galvana Gustafson: but you've been going on these walks for how long now?
[16:08] Roberto Salubrius: 2-3 weeks
[16:09] Tribal Nightfire: I shake my legs, while sitting. The more anxious I get the faster I shake my legs. Nervious thing I do
[16:09] Galvana Gustafson: and -- have you had a heart attack, or died from it?
[16:09] Roberto Salubrius: no Galvana
[16:09] Galvana Gustafson: bingo!
[16:09] Galvana Gustafson: that's the cognitive part
[16:09] Roberto Salubrius: Tribal you do that because you have a lot of energy on your body because of the adrenaline
[16:09] Roberto Salubrius: and it hs to go somewhere
[16:09] Roberto Salubrius: so your shaking tries to take out the enery that's good actually
[16:09] Tribal Nightfire: oh
[16:09] Roberto Salubrius: lowers your anxiety
[16:10] Galvana Gustafson: adrenaline, for me, goes into batakas or pillows
[16:10] Galvana Gustafson: I beat up pillows if I have to
[16:10] Roberto Salubrius: bataka ? pillow ? oh ok ok
[16:10] Galvana Gustafson: batakas are padded sticks used in therapy
[16:10] Roberto Salubrius: ah ok thank you
[16:11] Roberto Salubrius: ok......
[16:11] Roberto Salubrius: moon you had a question I think
[16:11] Moon Metty: yes
[16:11] Galvana Gustafson: I beat the crap out of some pillows with batakas in group therapy once -- pretended the pillows were someone!
[16:11] Galvana Gustafson: oh yes...
[16:11] Galvana Gustafson: all ears!
[16:11] Moon Metty: it may sound a little silly, but it's serious
[16:11] Galvana Gustafson nods
[16:11] Moon Metty: personally i don't have trouble with bridges at all
[16:12] Galvana Gustafson: it's different with everyone
[16:12] Moon Metty: but when i have meeting with someone form welfare, for example, i have a hard time
[16:12] Moon Metty: i don't think you suggest i spit on them?
[16:12] Galvana Gustafson: before the meeting, do you wonder about the worst case scenario?
[16:13] Galvana Gustafson: roflmao
[16:13] Galvana Gustafson: no, no spitting on real people
[16:13] Galvana Gustafson: ;-)
[16:13] Tribal Nightfire: lol
[16:13] Garlock Exonar: "chuckles" quietly
[16:13] Moon Metty: worst case scenario?
[16:13] Moon Metty: mmmm, i don't know
[16:14] Galvana Gustafson: we anxious types tend to indulge in "stinkin' thinkin'"
[16:14] Galvana Gustafson: "what if I say something wrong?"
[16:14] Galvana Gustafson: that kind of thing
[16:14] Moon Metty: maybe
[16:15] Moon Metty: i'm very slow with communication
[16:15] Galvana Gustafson: you don't feel in control?
[16:15] Roberto Salubrius: If I can say something it's not the person... it's the issue to be at the office and the fact that you have to deal with wellfare that causes you to be unease
[16:15] Moon Metty: no, i don't feel in control
[16:15] Emerald Farspire: hi everybody
[16:15] Galvana Gustafson: that's the problem
[16:15] Roberto Salubrius: we anxious/agoraphobics are control freaks
[16:15] Galvana Gustafson: hi Emerald
[16:15] Moon Metty: and usually i have a lack of sleep in those situations
[16:15] Roberto Salubrius: hi Emerald
[16:16] Moon Metty: that doesn't make it better
[16:16] Roberto Salubrius: when we loose control our anxiety shoots up
[16:16] Emerald Farspire: I can't be in a building unless I can see the exit door ..if I can't see the way out I panick
[16:16] Galvana Gustafson: sometimes we feel we don't have a right to ask people to slow down, or be patient, when they are the "authority figure"
[16:16] Moon Metty: yes
[16:16] Galvana Gustafson: but, we DO have that right
[16:16] Roberto Salubrius: Emerald ditto... however it has been so long since I went to a building...
[16:16] Emerald Farspire: hello Roberto and ty for tp
[16:16] Galvana Gustafson: we're human
[16:17] Moon Metty: i know that, and sometimes i did a good job
[16:17] Moon Metty: for example
[16:17] Moon Metty: i had a medical evaluation
[16:17] Emerald Farspire: Roberto right now I can't even go grocery shopping .. I have my groceries delivered
[16:17] Moon Metty: to see if i'm able to do work
[16:17] Moon Metty: but it was a bogus examination
[16:17] Galvana Gustafson: I've done that too
[16:17] Moon Metty: after 50 minutes the time was up
[16:18] Galvana Gustafson: not grocery shopping, I mean
[16:18] Moon Metty: and i couldn't discuss any of my problems anymore
[16:18] Galvana Gustafson: the therapist was that strict?
[16:18] Roberto Salubrius: that really blows
[16:18] Moon Metty: it wasn't really a therapist
[16:19] Galvana Gustafson: THAT was bad medicalpractitioner/patient fit
[16:19] Moon Metty: it was just a doctor who was hired to let as many people as possible pass
[16:19] Emerald Farspire: some therapy with the wrong people can make matters worse
[16:19] Galvana Gustafson: *medical practitioner
[16:19] Galvana Gustafson: exactly
[16:19] Galvana Gustafson: you have the right to go shopping
[16:19] Galvana Gustafson: find the right one
[16:19] Moon Metty: so i simply refused to accept the outvome of that examination
[16:19] Moon Metty: outcome
[16:19] Galvana Gustafson: well -- that may or may not have been a bad thing
[16:20] Roberto Salubrius: well you took control
[16:20] Roberto Salubrius: of deciding how to see that
[16:20] Galvana Gustafson: exactly
[16:20] Roberto Salubrius: so in the path of getting better that's ok at least for me
[16:20] Galvana Gustafson: the more rights you assert, the better you'll feel
[16:20] Roberto Salubrius: ok......
[16:21] Roberto Salubrius: i know a lot of you want to keep talking and asking and we can do that... in a while
[16:21] Emerald Farspire: has anyone here overcome their agoraphobia and then something happens in ur life and u start having it again ?
[16:21] Moon Metty: it was not the only bogus examination
[16:21] Roberto Salubrius: we need to place an agenda for next week meeting...
[16:21] Roberto Salubrius: any ideas on topics ?
[16:21] Moon Metty: the one before that was 20 minutes by a doctor in training
[16:21] Galvana Gustafson: me sit now!
[16:22] Galvana Gustafson: ;-)
[16:22] Roberto Salubrius: sorry I just want to get the agenda out of the way then we can keep chatting
[16:22] Roberto Salubrius: anyone has a topic in particular they would like to discuss next week
[16:22] Roberto Salubrius: thatis not medication
[16:22] Roberto Salubrius: we won't talk about medication here
[16:22] Galvana Gustafson: np!
[16:22] Roberto Salubrius: that's for your physicians
[16:22] Roberto Salubrius: so please ideas ?
[16:23] Roberto Salubrius: or anything you would like to talk about ?
[16:23] Roberto Salubrius: ok then we will figure it out during the week...
[16:23] Roberto Salubrius: now we have free time to talk
[16:23] Roberto Salubrius: the chat log will come up to here15:10] Roberto Salubrius: wellcome to our second meeting
[15:10] Roberto Salubrius: the agenda for today is 3 things basically
[15:11] Roberto Salubrius: 1-talk about the lucinda basset program ( but I don't know if someone made a presentation )
[15:11] Roberto Salubrius: 2-talk about the hyperventilation what is it realy
[15:11] Galvana Gustafson: I didn't... ;-)
[15:11] Roberto Salubrius: and some free time to speak
[15:11] Galvana Gustafson: I can do it off the cuff, so to speak
[15:11] Roberto Salubrius: for the ones that are just joing us the anxiety meter on top of our heads is to see how good or how bad we are doing
[15:12] Roberto Salubrius: even a virtual meeting can cause anxiety
[15:12] Roberto Salubrius: for us
[15:12] Roberto Salubrius: ok Galvana
[15:12] Roberto Salubrius: let me start with the hiperventilation
[15:12] Roberto Salubrius: then you go
[15:12] Galvana Gustafson: of course
[15:12] Roberto Salubrius: please set to play your media
[15:12] Roberto Salubrius: no need for Quicktime
[15:13] Roberto Salubrius: you should see something here that says hiperventilation and you
[15:13] Roberto Salubrius: if someone does not see it please say so
[15:13] Roberto Salubrius: if not I will start
[15:14] Roberto Salubrius: ok everyone hasit
[15:14] Moon Metty: yup
[15:14] Roberto Salubrius: ok you have heard about hyperventilation
[15:14] Tribal Nightfire: yes
[15:14] Mila Damiano: yes
[15:14] Roberto Salubrius: but maybe noone has sat down and given you a real explanation
[15:15] Roberto Salubrius: I am not a physician I had to get out of the last year of medical school due to my own agoraphobia
[15:15] Roberto Salubrius: but I have a bachellors degree on medical siences
[15:15] Roberto Salubrius: and this is medicine 101
[15:15] Roberto Salubrius: so I think I am qualified to explain this
[15:15] Roberto Salubrius: so let's start
[15:15] Roberto Salubrius: ok as with anything in medicine
[15:16] Roberto Salubrius: you should know first the physiology
[15:16] Roberto Salubrius: or how something works normally
[15:16] Roberto Salubrius: to understand how it works when it breaks
[15:16] Roberto Salubrius: so I'll explain the basics of breathing real fast
[15:16] Roberto Salubrius: breathing has 1 purpose
[15:16] Roberto Salubrius: well 2 really
[15:16] Roberto Salubrius: to place oxigen rich blood in our tissues
[15:17] Roberto Salubrius: and take out the blood that has less oxigen of our tissues
[15:17] Roberto Salubrius: so it takes in O2 ( oxigen )
[15:17] Roberto Salubrius: and removes ( CO2 ) ( carbon dioxied )
[15:17] Roberto Salubrius: it has other implications but we are keeping it simple
[15:18] Roberto Salubrius: BTW remember to update the meter when it flashes
[15:18] Roberto Salubrius: now every ADULT has a normal breathing pattern
[15:18] Roberto Salubrius: and a normal SPEED of breathing
[15:18] Roberto Salubrius: that is around 12 breaths each minute
[15:18] Roberto Salubrius: kids breath much faster
[15:18] Roberto Salubrius: but for us it is 12
[15:19] Roberto Salubrius: you can count the speed by looking how your chest or abdomen expands
[15:19] Roberto Salubrius: that counts for 1 breathing
[15:19] Roberto Salubrius: ok
[15:19] Roberto Salubrius: hyperventilation
[15:19] Roberto Salubrius: comes from the words
[15:19] Roberto Salubrius: hyper = quick fast
[15:19] Roberto Salubrius: ventilation = breath
[15:20] Roberto Salubrius: so basically it's a change on the SPEED of your breathing
[15:20] Roberto Salubrius: you breath faster
[15:20] Roberto Salubrius: breathing faster is not always bad and it's actually good
[15:20] Roberto Salubrius: when you make sports
[15:20] Roberto Salubrius: and you need more oxigen and to take out the CO2 faster
[15:20] Roberto Salubrius: that keeps us alive
[15:21] Roberto Salubrius: so it has a purpose to change the breathing pattern
[15:21] Roberto Salubrius: now.. I will talk about a thing called PH
[15:21] Roberto Salubrius: that's basically the relation between the amount of acid you have in your blood
[15:21] Roberto Salubrius: it is important because to work correctly
[15:21] Roberto Salubrius: your body needs a predefined PH
[15:21] Roberto Salubrius: of 7.4
[15:21] Roberto Salubrius: if it goes UP
[15:22] Roberto Salubrius: you get alcaline
[15:22] Roberto Salubrius: if it goes down
[15:22] Roberto Salubrius: you get acid
[15:22] Roberto Salubrius: on both cases your body will not work correctly
[15:22] Roberto Salubrius: this is important because hyperventilation when done in a way that is not correct
[15:22] Roberto Salubrius: alters the PH
[15:22] Roberto Salubrius: so
[15:23] Roberto Salubrius: thats the important part
[15:23] Roberto Salubrius: hyperventilation alters your PH
[15:23] Roberto Salubrius: and when you alter your PH
[15:23] Roberto Salubrius: your body does not function correctly
[15:23] Roberto Salubrius: I will explain more
[15:24] Roberto Salubrius: people think that the problem with hyperventilation is to have TOO much oxigen on your blood
[15:24] Roberto Salubrius: but that's not true
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[15:24] Roberto Salubrius: the problem is that you take out the CO2 of your organism real fast
[15:24] Roberto Salubrius: so... the CO2 goes down
[15:24] Roberto Salubrius: and behind me you can see a very simplified form of an equation
[15:25] Roberto Salubrius: as you can see if the CO2 ( PCO2 pressure of CO2 ) goes down
[15:25] Roberto Salubrius: PH goes up
[15:25] Roberto Salubrius: so we get alcaline
[15:25] Roberto Salubrius: PH > 7.4
[15:25] Roberto Salubrius: when we get alcaline things do not funtion correctly
[15:25] Moon Metty: i'm not sure if the formula is on the board Rob
[15:25] Roberto Salubrius: basically a lot of enzimes in your brain and the rest of your body
[15:25] Roberto Salubrius: there its moon ?
[15:26] Moon Metty: yes
[15:26] Roberto Salubrius: ok basically CO2 GOES DOWN -- PH goes up
[15:26] Roberto Salubrius: so the enzimes of your body can't function properly
[15:26] Roberto Salubrius: and what's intersting about this
[15:26] Roberto Salubrius: is that the cells that are more succeptible to PH changes are in the brain
[15:27] Roberto Salubrius: so your brain takes a toll ( this is not dangerous )
[15:27] Roberto Salubrius: but for instance you feel your balance affected
[15:27] Roberto Salubrius: your eyes start seeing weird
[15:27] Roberto Salubrius: ( you see things as if they where bigger or smaller )
[15:27] Roberto Salubrius: or different
[15:27] Roberto Salubrius: your thinking gets impaired
[15:27] Roberto Salubrius: your tought process gets impaired
[15:28] Roberto Salubrius: and many other things
[15:28] Roberto Salubrius: get affected
[15:28] Roberto Salubrius: and all because you are taking a lot of CO2 out
[15:28] Roberto Salubrius: thus making the PH high
[15:28] Roberto Salubrius: and making your blood alcaline
[15:28] Roberto Salubrius: every time you get anxious
[15:28] Roberto Salubrius: you can count you will breath faster
[15:29] Roberto Salubrius: because the fight-or-flight reaction gets triggered
[15:29] Roberto Salubrius: adrenaline rushes in your body
[15:29] Roberto Salubrius: and the body gets ready to act
[15:29] Roberto Salubrius: so it gets ready to breath faster to put moreeeeeeeeeee oxigen on the body
[15:29] Roberto Salubrius: but in the process
[15:29] Roberto Salubrius: CO2 goes away
[15:30] Roberto Salubrius: and causes most of our problems
[15:30] Roberto Salubrius: however this can be easily controled
[15:30] Roberto Salubrius: if you breath on a paper bag
[15:30] Roberto Salubrius: you recylce the CO2
[15:30] Roberto Salubrius: place it back in your body
[15:30] Roberto Salubrius: and regain homeostais ( normal PH funtion )
[15:30] Roberto Salubrius: personally I hate bags
[15:31] Roberto Salubrius: so I breath into a cup that I make by placing my hands together
[15:31] Moon Metty: ok
[15:31] Roberto Salubrius: but that's a quick intro on hyperventilation
[15:31] Roberto Salubrius: any questions?
[15:31] Moon Metty: are there other ways the pH can change?
[15:31] Roberto Salubrius: anyone ?
[15:31] Moon Metty: besides breathing?
[15:32] Roberto Salubrius: yes... it can change with the other part of the ecuation the HCO3
[15:32] Roberto Salubrius: that's the carbonic acid
[15:32] Roberto Salubrius: but that's controlled mostly on your kidneys
[15:32] Roberto Salubrius: if the carbonic acid goes up so does the PH
[15:32] Roberto Salubrius: however that control is slow
[15:33] Roberto Salubrius: and used mostly on cronic conditions on the body
[15:33] Moon Metty: ok thank you
[15:33] Roberto Salubrius: ok anyone else
[15:33] Roberto Salubrius: did I make myself clear ?
[15:33] Roberto Salubrius: was it to technical ?
[15:33] Galvana Gustafson: no, not too technical
[15:33] Mila Damiano: it was excellent, thank you
[15:33] Garlock Exonar: would teas and music as well as incense help with anxity and hypertention
[15:34] Roberto Salubrius: Garlock ok that's not part of the presentation but yes
[15:34] Roberto Salubrius: there are diuretic teas that make you pee
[15:34] Roberto Salubrius: and that helps your hypertension go down
[15:34] Roberto Salubrius: and music can help you relax and let go a bit
[15:34] Roberto Salubrius: that will help with anxiety
[15:34] Roberto Salubrius: there are also calmin teas
[15:35] Roberto Salubrius: like linden tea
[15:35] Roberto Salubrius: that can relax you
[15:35] Roberto Salubrius: but once again in hyperventilation
[15:35] Roberto Salubrius: the PH changes are so fast
[15:35] Roberto Salubrius: that you never even notice them until you are out of control
[15:36] Roberto Salubrius: however if you get to see yourself breathing fast
[15:36] Roberto Salubrius: at an early stage
[15:36] Roberto Salubrius: and conciously manage it
[15:36] Roberto Salubrius: you will start taking control of your anxiety/panic
[15:36] Roberto Salubrius: anything else?
[15:36] Roberto Salubrius: to give the floor to galvana ?
[15:37] Galvana Gustafson: I don't need the whole floor -- just a tiny piece! ;-)
[15:37] Roberto Salubrius: lol
[15:37] Roberto Salubrius: ok
[15:37] Roberto Salubrius: thank you I hope you enjoyed the micro presentation about hyperventilation and you can remember it when you are anxious next time
[15:37] Roberto Salubrius: galvana your floor
[15:37] Moon Metty: thanks Rob
[15:37] Roberto Salubrius: ( or a piece of it )
[15:37] Tribal Nightfire: thanks
[15:37] Galvana Gustafson: thanks Roberto
[15:37] Mila Damiano: thank you so much
[15:37] Galvana Gustafson: ;-)
[15:37] Roberto Salubrius: yw
[15:38] Galvana Gustafson: I like it back here!
[15:38] Galvana Gustafson: ;-)
[15:38] Galvana Gustafson: I know that some of you said you're famliar with Lucinda Bassett's program?
[15:38] Galvana Gustafson: *familiar
[15:39] Galvana Gustafson: I was lucky, being able to use it in a hospital setting before it went "informercial"
[15:39] Galvana Gustafson: so I had extra help with it
[15:40] Galvana Gustafson: Lucinda teaches a great deal of things, so there's no way I could possibly touch on every topic she addresses
[15:40] Galvana Gustafson: but the main one is something Roberto actually alluded to toward the end of his presentation
[15:41] Galvana Gustafson: and that is CONTROL
[15:41] Mila Damiano: sorry Galvana I crashed
[15:41] Galvana Gustafson: as agoraphobics and people with panic attacks, we have given over control of our bodies TO our bodies
[15:41] Moon Metty: welcome back Mila
[15:41] Galvana Gustafson: np Mila!
[15:42] Galvana Gustafson: ;-)
[15:42] Roberto Salubrius: wb mila
[15:42] Mila Damiano: ty
[15:42] Galvana Gustafson: we actually let our bodies tell us what we should think and feel
[15:42] Galvana Gustafson: we have to put stop to that
[15:43] Galvana Gustafson: WE are in control... NOT our bodies!
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[15:43] Galvana Gustafson: it's a difficult concept, I suppose, as it is physiological
[15:44] Galvana Gustafson: but truly, we can have just as much or as little control over what we listen to from our bodies as we like
[15:44] Galvana Gustafson: I had to learn to take charge, and not let my anxiety boss me around anymore
[15:45] Galvana Gustafson: one of the very first things that Dr Joel said to me about my agoraphobia and anxiety really ticked me off but off
[15:45] Galvana Gustafson: *but good
[15:45] Galvana Gustafson: (sorry!)
[15:45] Galvana Gustafson: he asked me what I was GAINING from my agoraphobia and anxiety!
[15:46] Galvana Gustafson: I was "ABOSOLUTELY NOTHING!" "it's TAKING things from me!"
[15:46] Galvana Gustafson: *absolutely
[15:46] Galvana Gustafson: he insisted that I must be gaining something from it, to let it hang around so much
[15:47] Galvana Gustafson: I wanted to bop him on the head!
[15:47] Galvana Gustafson: but eventually, I learned he was right
[15:47] Galvana Gustafson: I *was* gaining something from it
[15:47] Galvana Gustafson: I didn't have any real responsibilities, because I was convinced that I couldn't handle them
[15:48] Galvana Gustafson: I was much like a child
[15:48] Galvana Gustafson: and blaming everything on the agoraphobia and panic attacks
[15:48] Galvana Gustafson: it sounds odd in the beginning, but it was a convenient scapegoat
[15:49] Galvana Gustafson: I didn't have to say "I don't WANT to.." I just said "I CAN'T!"
[15:49] Galvana Gustafson: gain
[15:49] Galvana Gustafson: I hated it when he accused me of it, but he was right
[15:50] Galvana Gustafson: getting your life back means taking back your responsibilities
[15:50] Roberto Salubrius: true
[15:50] Galvana Gustafson: and I finally realized that I WANTED those responsibilities!!
[15:50] Galvana Gustafson: I had to get angry with it
[15:50] Galvana Gustafson: do any of you allow yourselves to get angry with the anxiety?
[15:51] Galvana Gustafson: for pushing you around?
[15:51] Moon Metty: not really
[15:51] Galvana Gustafson: smacking your hand and saying, "you can't do that!"
[15:51] Moon Metty: i rarely get angry in general
[15:51] Galvana Gustafson: you don't get angry, Moon?
[15:51] Roberto Salubrius: I get angry........... with it, but it's a struggle
[15:51] Moon Metty: no, i don't
[15:52] Galvana Gustafson: that's something else we do... we avoid feeling -- we just have panic attacks instead
[15:52] Roberto Salubrius: I have no control over emotions so angry, happy, sad, frustraded all feel like anxiety
[15:52] Galvana Gustafson: feelings are going to come out one way or another
[15:52] Galvana Gustafson: exactly!
[15:53] Galvana Gustafson: we let everything become anxiety
[15:53] Galvana Gustafson: instead of owning the feelings for what they are
[15:53] Galvana Gustafson: that was a bit much to hit you with to start with...
[15:53] Galvana Gustafson: but think about it
[15:53] Galvana Gustafson: see if it doesn't benefit you in some way
[15:54] Galvana Gustafson: and I'd like to share a small story
[15:54] Galvana Gustafson: one of my first outings with Dr Joel -- my first exposure to triggers
[15:54] Galvana Gustafson: ONE of the first
[15:55] Galvana Gustafson: I was afraid to drive
[15:55] Galvana Gustafson: AND I was afraid of bridges
[15:55] Galvana Gustafson: so Dr Joel drove me over the bridge from Memphis TN to West Memphis, Arkansas
[15:55] Galvana Gustafson: I had to keep him updated on my anxiety level
[15:56] Galvana Gustafson: when it got really high, he pulled over on the bridge
[15:56] Galvana Gustafson: he had me open the car door, and SPIT on that bridge!
[15:56] Moon Metty: :)
[15:56] Galvana Gustafson: it "grounded" me. in more ways than one!
[15:57] Galvana Gustafson: I realized -- it's just steel and concrete
[15:57] Galvana Gustafson: and I could SPIT on it any time I wanted!!
[15:57] Galvana Gustafson: somehow, it became less scary
[15:58] Galvana Gustafson: I'd look out the hospital window and look at the bridge and laugh
[15:58] Galvana Gustafson: knowing my spit was on it!
[15:58] Galvana Gustafson: ;-)
[15:58] Roberto Salubrius: :)
[15:58] Galvana Gustafson: being able to bring yourself to a level where you feel grounded is very important
[15:59] Galvana Gustafson: it gives you something to think about other than your rising anxiety level
[15:59] Galvana Gustafson: brings reality into focus
[16:00] Galvana Gustafson: there is SO much to the program, and what Dr Joel did with me... but that;s for starters anyway!
[16:00] Galvana Gustafson: *that's
[16:00] Galvana Gustafson: questions, anyone?
[16:00] Roberto Salubrius: yes I know our time is up since the meeting is 1 hour but we started a bit late
[16:00] Galvana Gustafson: yep...
[16:01] Moon Metty: i have a question
[16:01] Galvana Gustafson: but my door is always open
[16:01] Galvana Gustafson: sure Moon!
[16:01] Roberto Salubrius: I am working with a program called don't panic by Dr Reid Wilson... he talks about getting in control and actually confront the agoraphobia
[16:01] Roberto Salubrius: that's the same on the lucinda's program ??
[16:01] Galvana Gustafson: I'm familiar with that, Roberto
[16:01] Galvana Gustafson: oh yes
[16:02] Galvana Gustafson: you're talaking about exposure therapy?
[16:02] Galvana Gustafson: or oimmersion therapy?
[16:02] Galvana Gustafson: *immersion
[16:02] Roberto Salubrius: more than that to actually want to get anxious and look for anxiety
[16:02] Galvana Gustafson nods
[16:02] Galvana Gustafson: I did that, but in a different way
[16:03] Galvana Gustafson: Dr Joel once ORDERED me to have a pnic attack
[16:03] Galvana Gustafson: I couldn't do it
[16:03] Galvana Gustafson: *panic
[16:03] Galvana Gustafson: there was NO way I could panic while TRYING to
[16:04] Galvana Gustafson: which, of course, makes you think that the reverse could be true
[16:04] Roberto Salubrius: yes it's the same approach it seems
[16:04] Galvana Gustafson: pretty much!
[16:04] Galvana Gustafson: it works
[16:04] Roberto Salubrius: run towards the roar...
[16:04] Roberto Salubrius: but damn it's hard
[16:05] Roberto Salubrius: and when you do it then you feel so tired and confuse and bad
[16:05] Galvana Gustafson: yeah... but once you take that first step... it's much easier than you think
[16:05] Roberto Salubrius: at least that's what has been going on with me for the last 2-3 weeks
[16:05] Galvana Gustafson: you're conditioned to THINK that running towards it is bad
[16:06] Galvana Gustafson: anxiety does that
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[16:06] Roberto Salubrius: I go out or try to go out alone around my home every day... and I feel so bad...
[16:06] Roberto Salubrius: what bothers me the most is that I rock... from side to side so I get all dizzy
[16:06] Galvana Gustafson: yes, I know... but doesn't part of you think you are SUPPOSED to feel bad while doing that?
[16:06] Roberto Salubrius: yes
[16:07] Roberto Salubrius: of course
[16:07] Galvana Gustafson: nerve rocking?
[16:07] Roberto Salubrius: no no idea I just rock from side to side as if was on a boat I can explain all my anxiety sympthoms but that one.
[16:07] Roberto Salubrius: I have to ask some friend to see why is that
[16:07] Galvana Gustafson: oh, so you don't PHYSICALLY rock?
[16:08] Roberto Salubrius: yes I move
[16:08] Roberto Salubrius: from side to side
[16:08] Galvana Gustafson: that's probably nerves
[16:08] Roberto Salubrius: no idea why I can't stop it or control it
[16:08] Galvana Gustafson: from being anxioues
[16:08] Galvana Gustafson: *anxious
[16:08] Roberto Salubrius: I suppose
[16:08] Roberto Salubrius: or the acidocis playing with my inner ear
[16:08] Galvana Gustafson: but you've been going on these walks for how long now?
[16:08] Roberto Salubrius: 2-3 weeks
[16:09] Tribal Nightfire: I shake my legs, while sitting. The more anxious I get the faster I shake my legs. Nervious thing I do
[16:09] Galvana Gustafson: and -- have you had a heart attack, or died from it?
[16:09] Roberto Salubrius: no Galvana
[16:09] Galvana Gustafson: bingo!
[16:09] Galvana Gustafson: that's the cognitive part
[16:09] Roberto Salubrius: Tribal you do that because you have a lot of energy on your body because of the adrenaline
[16:09] Roberto Salubrius: and it hs to go somewhere
[16:09] Roberto Salubrius: so your shaking tries to take out the enery that's good actually
[16:09] Tribal Nightfire: oh
[16:09] Roberto Salubrius: lowers your anxiety
[16:10] Galvana Gustafson: adrenaline, for me, goes into batakas or pillows
[16:10] Galvana Gustafson: I beat up pillows if I have to
[16:10] Roberto Salubrius: bataka ? pillow ? oh ok ok
[16:10] Galvana Gustafson: batakas are padded sticks used in therapy
[16:10] Roberto Salubrius: ah ok thank you
[16:11] Roberto Salubrius: ok......
[16:11] Roberto Salubrius: moon you had a question I think
[16:11] Moon Metty: yes
[16:11] Galvana Gustafson: I beat the crap out of some pillows with batakas in group therapy once -- pretended the pillows were someone!
[16:11] Galvana Gustafson: oh yes...
[16:11] Galvana Gustafson: all ears!
[16:11] Moon Metty: it may sound a little silly, but it's serious
[16:11] Galvana Gustafson nods
[16:11] Moon Metty: personally i don't have trouble with bridges at all
[16:12] Galvana Gustafson: it's different with everyone
[16:12] Moon Metty: but when i have meeting with someone form welfare, for example, i have a hard time
[16:12] Moon Metty: i don't think you suggest i spit on them?
[16:12] Galvana Gustafson: before the meeting, do you wonder about the worst case scenario?
[16:13] Galvana Gustafson: roflmao
[16:13] Galvana Gustafson: no, no spitting on real people
[16:13] Galvana Gustafson: ;-)
[16:13] Tribal Nightfire: lol
[16:13] Garlock Exonar: "chuckles" quietly
[16:13] Moon Metty: worst case scenario?
[16:13] Moon Metty: mmmm, i don't know
[16:14] Galvana Gustafson: we anxious types tend to indulge in "stinkin' thinkin'"
[16:14] Galvana Gustafson: "what if I say something wrong?"
[16:14] Galvana Gustafson: that kind of thing
[16:14] Moon Metty: maybe
[16:15] Moon Metty: i'm very slow with communication
[16:15] Galvana Gustafson: you don't feel in control?
[16:15] Roberto Salubrius: If I can say something it's not the person... it's the issue to be at the office and the fact that you have to deal with wellfare that causes you to be unease
[16:15] Moon Metty: no, i don't feel in control
[16:15] Emerald Farspire: hi everybody
[16:15] Galvana Gustafson: that's the problem
[16:15] Roberto Salubrius: we anxious/agoraphobics are control freaks
[16:15] Galvana Gustafson: hi Emerald
[16:15] Moon Metty: and usually i have a lack of sleep in those situations
[16:15] Roberto Salubrius: hi Emerald
[16:16] Moon Metty: that doesn't make it better
[16:16] Roberto Salubrius: when we loose control our anxiety shoots up
[16:16] Emerald Farspire: I can't be in a building unless I can see the exit door ..if I can't see the way out I panick
[16:16] Galvana Gustafson: sometimes we feel we don't have a right to ask people to slow down, or be patient, when they are the "authority figure"
[16:16] Moon Metty: yes
[16:16] Galvana Gustafson: but, we DO have that right
[16:16] Roberto Salubrius: Emerald ditto... however it has been so long since I went to a building...
[16:16] Emerald Farspire: hello Roberto and ty for tp
[16:16] Galvana Gustafson: we're human
[16:17] Moon Metty: i know that, and sometimes i did a good job
[16:17] Moon Metty: for example
[16:17] Moon Metty: i had a medical evaluation
[16:17] Emerald Farspire: Roberto right now I can't even go grocery shopping .. I have my groceries delivered
[16:17] Moon Metty: to see if i'm able to do work
[16:17] Moon Metty: but it was a bogus examination
[16:17] Galvana Gustafson: I've done that too
[16:17] Moon Metty: after 50 minutes the time was up
[16:18] Galvana Gustafson: not grocery shopping, I mean
[16:18] Moon Metty: and i couldn't discuss any of my problems anymore
[16:18] Galvana Gustafson: the therapist was that strict?
[16:18] Roberto Salubrius: that really blows
[16:18] Moon Metty: it wasn't really a therapist
[16:19] Galvana Gustafson: THAT was bad medicalpractitioner/patient fit
[16:19] Moon Metty: it was just a doctor who was hired to let as many people as possible pass
[16:19] Emerald Farspire: some therapy with the wrong people can make matters worse
[16:19] Galvana Gustafson: *medical practitioner
[16:19] Galvana Gustafson: exactly
[16:19] Galvana Gustafson: you have the right to go shopping
[16:19] Galvana Gustafson: find the right one
[16:19] Moon Metty: so i simply refused to accept the outvome of that examination
[16:19] Moon Metty: outcome
[16:19] Galvana Gustafson: well -- that may or may not have been a bad thing
[16:20] Roberto Salubrius: well you took control
[16:20] Roberto Salubrius: of deciding how to see that
[16:20] Galvana Gustafson: exactly
[16:20] Roberto Salubrius: so in the path of getting better that's ok at least for me
[16:20] Galvana Gustafson: the more rights you assert, the better you'll feel
[16:20] Roberto Salubrius: ok......
[16:21] Roberto Salubrius: i know a lot of you want to keep talking and asking and we can do that... in a while
[16:21] Emerald Farspire: has anyone here overcome their agoraphobia and then something happens in ur life and u start having it again ?
[16:21] Moon Metty: it was not the only bogus examination
[16:21] Roberto Salubrius: we need to place an agenda for next week meeting...
[16:21] Roberto Salubrius: any ideas on topics ?
[16:21] Moon Metty: the one before that was 20 minutes by a doctor in training
[16:21] Galvana Gustafson: me sit now!
[16:22] Galvana Gustafson: ;-)
[16:22] Roberto Salubrius: sorry I just want to get the agenda out of the way then we can keep chatting
[16:22] Roberto Salubrius: anyone has a topic in particular they would like to discuss next week
[16:22] Roberto Salubrius: thatis not medication
[16:22] Roberto Salubrius: we won't talk about medication here
[16:22] Galvana Gustafson: np!
[16:22] Roberto Salubrius: that's for your physicians
[16:22] Roberto Salubrius: so please ideas ?
[16:23] Roberto Salubrius: or anything you would like to talk about ?
[16:23] Roberto Salubrius: ok then we will figure it out during the week...
[16:23] Roberto Salubrius: now we have free time to talk
[16:23] Roberto Salubrius: the chat log will come up to here