Open Source Meeting/2010-04-01

== Agenda Thursday, 01 April 2010 ==
# Weekly Snowglobe update - Merov Linden
# Line endings and VCSs
#* in svn: Property eol-style set to native for plain text based files (except *.sh in snowglobe 1 trunk.
#** Should probably be done in other branches, too, to avoid merge conflicts
#** Some binaries might still have the wrong eol-style property
#* in hg: How do we handle this once we switch to mercurial?
#** require enabling Win32text extension?
# WTF? This is getting scary.
== Transcript ==
[14:02]	:	hint hint nudge nudge
[14:02]	:	hello!
[14:02]	:	hi
[14:02]	:	well, there's an agenda : http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source_Meeting/Agenda
[14:02]	:	and I'll comment on what I've been doing and is doing right now
[14:03]	:	OK, lets start
[14:04]	:	Snowglobe update
[14:04]	:	I'll start with 1.3.2
[14:04]	 	waves to Merov
[14:04]	:	I finally did the source bundles yesterday, updated the wiki, the version manager, etc...
[14:04]	:	congrats
[14:05]	:	and now 1.3.2 is the default Snowglobe download, 1.4 the current official trunk
[14:05]	:	done and done
[14:05]	:	pfffew
[14:05]	:	:-D
[14:05]	:	great!
[14:05]	:	...ew c.c lol
[14:05]	:	I saw some commits on 1.4 trunk so I'll kick parabuild tomorrow and post an update
[14:06]	:	now, 2.0
[14:06]	:	I did a bunch of commits using the scripts
[14:06]	:	the viewer-external is now synced with beta5
[14:07]	:	I'll sync with the viewer-2-0 official today (few changes....)
[14:07]	:	and I'm right this minute in the process of merging viewer-external in snowglobe 2.90 trunk
[14:07]	:	pfffew...
[14:08]	:	woah, we're on 2.90 already?
[14:08]	 	annoints merov the merge king
[14:08]	:	typo: 2.0!
[14:08]	 	thinks she must have missed a year or two
[14:08]	:	o.o
[14:08]	:	so does he get a big vice clamp now?
[14:08]	:	I know my memeory isn't perfect,,,but how did I miss 2.1 though 2.8?
[14:09]	:	because they were INVISIBO
[14:09]	:	Fury: :D
[14:09]	:	ok ok... make fun of me... <grumpy french voice>
[14:09]	:	would be 2.1 through 2.89 given our current system :D
[14:09]	:	aww
[14:09]	 	waits for the 'april fool' comment.
[14:10]	:	anyhow... those merges should be rather simple since we've done little merges so far
[14:10]	:	I see weird conflicts though but it's mostly because svn merge is brain dead...
[14:10]	 	won't start ranting on this now...
[14:10]	:	svn doen't have a brain to begine with.
[14:10]	:	:-)
[14:11]	:	Yeah, Fury was fighting some of that last night.
[14:11]	:	on another note, I also created parabuild agents fodr the SG2.0 trunk build
[14:11]	:	if you subscribed to sldev-commits, you may have seen some failed build passing this morning
[14:12]	:	I'm on this and will work to fix that
[14:12]	:	asap
[14:12]	:	it's build log urls are also giving acess denied
[14:12]	:	(Latha Serevi is my main) I'm still failing to build a 2.0 viewer on XP/VS2008, but I'm pretty sure it's just inexperience (was spoiled that in Emerald someone had fixed the boost hell already). Will coordinate with Nicky Perian (who asked on opensource-dev) and anyone else who might supply/need help. <sigh>
[14:13]	:	Thickbrick: hmmm... let me know which one
[14:13]	:	I need to admit I use the internal admin parabuild view so I usually don't click those links
[14:13]	:	http://secondlife.com/developers/opensource/downloads/2010/trunk/3286/failed-build.Linux
[14:14]	:	Alien: the more recent viewer-external should have the boost issues fixed
[14:14]	:	well, I've been told at least
[14:14]	:	That means VS2008 will work?
[14:14]	:	Well, I doubt that there's a recipe on any wiki page that will work as-is.
[14:15]	:	Thickbrick: those links fail for me too...
[14:15]	:	Brad Linden probably touched that boost thingie
[14:15]	:	I need to check why it is, surely some parabuild setting I haven't changed when creating (by copy) the new build agent
[14:16]	:	anyway, expect quite a bit of commits from me on SG2.0 now and quite a bit of build failing messages in the coming days
[14:17]	:	that should calm down soon though
[14:18]	:	For a while, should those of us who just want to compile a 2.0 to use and examine, be focusing on viewer-external, probably?
[14:18]	:	so, on SG, I think we should consider ourselves in a transition phase right now
[14:18]	:	Alien: you're certainly welcome to build viewer-external
[14:19]	:	which transition? 1.x -> 2.x? svn -> hg?
[14:19]	:	that does build unless you're doing standalone or 64 bits :/
[14:19]	:	1.x -> 2.x Boroondas
[14:19]	:	I would fix up a wiki page for compiling 2.0 on VS2008 if I could succeed in getting a compile to work so I had something to report. At least with viewer-external it's not _supposed_ to be broken this week. :-/
[14:19]	:	speaking of viewer-external when can we expect the automatic script to be turned on?
[14:20]	:	Latif: whenever Q creates the internal viewer-public
[14:21]	:	which is not created yet... Q and the crew were sorta busy with squashing show stoppers till the last minute
[14:21]	:	I should be meeting with Q early next week to settle that
[14:21]	:	Does that mean development should now be made on the 2.x branch and ported back for 1.x, rather than on 1.x and ported forward to 2.x?
[14:21]	:	hmm, so viewer-public will be a special branch that gets stuff cherry picked for it
[14:22]	:	Boroondas: it's really up to what you're more confortable with, I see pro and con in both approach
[14:22]	:	from my selfish standpoint (making most of the merges), I prefer you work on 2.0
[14:23]	:	but, since the build is sort of borken right this minute, I understand if you don't
[14:24]	:	ok, that's quite a bit of work for this week stabilizing all that
[14:25]	:	when done, I hope to see Pixel, Robin and others jump in and merge their specific features in that 2.0 trunk :)
[14:25]	:	How's your time looking guys?
[14:26]	:	Am I bloking you?
[14:26]	:	i was fighting it until today ardy actually if you count 12am = today c.c
[14:26]	:	i'm so underwater, i'm just starting a new project, so i'm happy u r still thrashing a bit with merge hades
[14:26]	:	also back from driving little car
[14:27]	:	ok Pixel
[14:27]	 	just realizes that Robin is not here...
[14:27]	:	went offline at 14:19, maybe crashed?
[14:28]	:	could be
[14:28]	:	I think maybe some tracking tag for 1.x patches that need porting to 2.0 would help
[14:28]	:	ok, anyone else with current Snowglobe plan? (test, feature, patch...)
[14:28]	:	what are we doing procedure-wise bringing stuff forward? Does stuff need re-reviewing before committing?
[14:29]	:	depending how cleanly it applies
[14:29]	:	Thickbrick: yes, I have a spreadsheet with some of this and needs to edit it
[14:29]	:	A wiki page might work for that
[14:29]	 	tries to clean OGP with some bleach so it will 'cleanly apply'
[14:29]	:	lol
[14:29]	:	Aimee: I'd say "it depends" indeed, some patches are small
[14:30]	:	so I don't want to overburden folks with review but we should all review the commit when they come through
[14:30]	:	with extra attention
[14:30]	:	fairy nuff
[14:30]	:	freakin cat
[14:30]	:	DX
[14:30]	:	for "big features" (say, more than 2 files and 20 lines changed), we should so a review
[14:31]	:	note that lost of patches are just few lines and don't fall in that category
[14:31]	:	welcome back Robin!
[14:31]	:	Hey, sorry was out tonight
[14:31]	:	I know at least one of my previous one I ended up re-implementing "the 2.0 way" as it was a lot cleaner and easier than the original patch
[14:32]	:	so that will need re-reviewing
[14:32]	:	(SNOW-575 if anyone's feeling eager ;)
[14:32]	:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-575 
 [#SNOW-575] Reimplement Menu item to hide object selection outlines for 2.0
[14:32]	:	we need to use common sense here I think
[14:33]	:	ok, on the "script madness" side, I'm still working on 2 things:
[14:33]	:	1. fix the commit message so we keep some semblance of history (my bad the one we have right now is not very good)
[14:34]	:	2. a "branding" script so that we stamp things as "Snowglobe" or whatever 3rd party name you choose (there's a JIRA on this somewhere)
[14:35]	:	the first script is internal, that second one I'll make public
[14:36]	:	k, that's all I have for Snowglobe work...
[14:36]	:	it's still undergoing major work as you can see but it's coming together
[14:37]	:	I feel better now we have viewer-external scripts working
[14:37]	:	next on the agenda, eol issues:
[14:38]	:	Could the diffs between rebranded and non-rebranded source be make public, too?
[14:38]	:	Boroondas: by 3rd party?
[14:38]	 	not sure he understood the question
[14:39]	:	the exported branches will be rebranded to "Snowglobe", right?
[14:39]	:	yes, that's the plan
[14:39]	:	it's still very confusing what exactly will be in this viewer-public
[14:39]	:	but it's going to be a handfull of strings and bitmaps
[14:39]	:	and why the need of rebrand mundging before export
[14:40]	:	wait: by making the branding script public, it'll be clear as day what's changed!
[14:40]	:	if what the script does is reversible, yes
[14:40]	:	otherwise, it's still be guessing
[14:41]	:	Latif: maybe viewer-public needs to be renamed. it confused me too
[14:41]	:	well the branch doesn't even exist yet, so it will be something cherry picked for export it seems
[14:41]	:	viewer-public is inside LL, it gets exported to viewer-external
[14:42]	:	you won't see viewer-public, it gets plenty of "non GPL" stuff in there
[14:42]	:	Merov: yeah, maybe Q's wiki page just needs to designate which ones are publiclaly accessible, and which are internal
[14:42]	:	the idea of calling it that way is that LL devs know that when committing there, their stuff will show up in viewer-external almost immeiately
[14:43]	:	I thought it was, no?
[14:43]	 	checks
[14:43]	:	maybe i just didnt look carefully enuf
[14:43]	:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Repository_Strategy
[14:43]	:	"""The "viewer-public" branch is a Linden-internal branch"""
[14:44]	:	ok, my bad
[14:44]	:	well, we should have a line in the graphic to show "accessible externally" and "LL only"
[14:44]	:	is it ok to edit that diagram to add a "LL Firewall" line/box on it?
[14:44]	:	heh
[14:45]	:	what is confusing me the most is, that now that 2.0 has been declared golden, probably nothing will happen on that branch as the most effort goes into 2.1
[14:45]	:	and yet, viewer-public will probably stay 2.0 until 2.1 gets released to the public
[14:46]	:	Latif: right, on that viewer-2-0 branch, that's why we need internally to create that viewer-public asap
[14:46]	:	I know that Q is committed to do that
[14:46]	:	and Nyx is on his back to get it done!
[14:46]	:	:)
[14:46]	:	and me too :)
[14:46]	:	but what will be in viewer-public? currently released branch of teh viewer?
[14:47]	:	in viewer-public, we'll have all the 2.1 dev work *except* for those viewer-private features, rare ones
[14:48]	:	ok, that will be good, as not to have viewer-public be basically a source drop for released viewers
[14:48]	:	Give Q a week or so to pull that off though: we only had our launch party yesterday night :)
[14:48]	:	btw., for publicy developed features, wouldn't it be better to branch from viewer-external, rather than viewer-public, so one can skip the filtering?
[14:49]	:	the plan is that that will be basically our default development trunk
[14:49]	:	*publicly
[14:49]	:	the option is do something privately, rather than private by default
[14:49]	:	ok, that's nice to hear :)
[14:50]	:	From my outsider perspective, I take it that my closest approximation to the source of the "latest LL viewer" is going to be viewer-external. I'm not quite following how the code I'd compile would systematically differ from the LL official binary download of the same vintage?
[14:50]	:	Boroondas: viewer-external is really meant to be a read-only branch, a simple "sanitized" version of viewer-publi
[14:50]	:	yeah, doesn't mean you can't branch from it
[14:51]	:	Merov, but that still leaves a lot of manual labouir to you
[14:51]	:	like making external tags
[14:51]	:	there is no "viewer 2.0 golden" source, so someone will have to tag external one with it
[14:51]	:	if Lindens want to develop completely in the open "sans" filtering, they should commit to or branch from Snowglobe
[14:52]	:	that'll minimize my merge work
[14:52]	:	one thing that plan is aimed at is suppressing the merge accrobatics I've been doing all last year
[14:52]	:	improductive, error prone, pain...
[14:53]	:	not to mention it brings out the grumpy frenchiness. :)
[14:53]	:	yeah... that too...
[14:53]	:	how will export script going to handle tagging situations, like when viewer-external jumps from viewer_2_0 to 2_1-dev
[14:53]	:	I'd rather collaborate on stuff with you, take patches in and improve the viewer
[14:54]	:	I'm wondering how to get "corresponding source" each time that a new Viewer-2.x comes out.
[14:54]	:	Thanks Thickbrick.
[14:54]	:	Not Snowglobe
[14:55]	:	wait: viewer-external is basically a copy (sanitized) of the main dev trunk
[14:55]	:	i think the question is "2.0 golden" is out, how do i get source for it?
[14:55]	:	when doing releases, a release branch is created internally
[14:56]	:	we have that point in viewer-external and can do a tag there to mark the "becomes next version" point
[14:56]	:	We can also create branches in Snowglobe to mimic that branching
[14:57]	:	Merov, would we do that with viewer-external and the current 2.0 release, as an example? What's the tag?
[14:57]	:	Latif: 2.0 golden code: I have one last pull to do but the beta 5 is a hair close to it (viewer-external I mean, I tagged beta5 this morning)
[14:58]	:	And I still want to know how that tagged "nearly the same" version is expected to differ from the original.
[14:59]	:	Not too worried about V2-SN2 correlation, they will diverge, inevitably. I'm just worried about identifying "corresponding source" whenever a new Viewer-2.x comes out. If you define a tag and say "Grab that!", that's fine (assuming it does correspond :P) :-)
[14:59]	:	Difference will be branding (though not right now, we still export the SL icon and stuff as before) and all "non GPL" things like llkdu code
[14:59]	:	llkdu or libkdu?
[14:59]	:	yeah, i assume there will be viewer_2_0_0 tag in the public svn
[15:00]	:	Morgaine: I think we'll have to do specific export to make sure there's no difference (beyond branding)
[15:00]	:	That would be cool, Merov.
[15:01]	:	The export script is written is a way we can export any hg repo really... it's not bolted to viewer-public
[15:01]	:	or cg/viewer-2-0 I'm using right now
[15:01]	:	Yeah, make a different branding. Confusion with Snowglobe should be avoided as well, because V2 is not SN2
[15:01]	:	o man, it's 3pm already!
[15:02]	:	thank you for your time Merov :)
[15:02]	:	and we only covered one of three agenta points :-O
[15:02]	:	Cheers Merov
[15:02]	:	Boroondas: yes :(
[15:02]	:	I guess I should give an email answer to the other points
[15:02]	:	especially the eol thingy
[15:02]	:	UXIG time!
[15:03]	:	I think it's awesome that this stuff is coming together, and is public ... but I find it frustrating that it is not documented at all, so I can't compile it on a Windows box or know what exactly it is. Nobody interested in creating a brief wiki page to help with that?
[15:03]	:	I need to ask bos or cg a question on this wrt hg
[15:03]	:	And the policy of third party viwers on the pjira.
[15:03]	:	Alien: yes please, create a wiki and I'll contribute to it with my knwoledge
[15:03]	:	bos is the author of http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/Win32TextExtension :-)
[15:04]	:	lots of the build hocus pocus lives in my head right now... I need to put that down somewhere
[15:04]	:	If you get run over by a bus, we're screwed :-(
[15:04]	:	I think the bus company will be too if it's any consolation
[15:05]	 	shudders
[15:05]	:	Better yet, if he wins a gazillion dollars in the lottery and moves to a private island, we're screwed. :-)
[15:05]	:	Merov :)
[15:05]	:	seriously, CG knows everything I know
[15:05]	:	of course, we could be *both* ran over by a bus
[15:05]	:	I suggest a better alternative: neither :P
[15:05]	:	ask Q how to avoid angry SUVs
[15:06]	 	likes that one
[15:06]	:	we unfortunately haven't managed to commit Merov and CG to Mercurial yet so that we could do a rollback
[15:06]	:	HAHAHA
[15:06]	:	:D
[15:06]	:	how about i run him over with my little rc car and call it a close call
[15:06]	 	shivers
[15:06]	:	<3 Aimee
[15:06]	:	tho if it hits him in the ankles...will probably end with a hospital stay
[15:07]	:	doing a merge on the two might produce a complete evil genius though, so we're probably safer that way
[15:07]	:	that starts to look like "Misery"
[15:07]	:	lol
[15:07]	 	heads to UXIG ... Take care everyone, and have a good weekend. :-)
[15:07]	:	taha
[15:08]	:	cheers
[15:08]	:	and we've barred Nyx from commiting himself to Hg as he'd probably immediately branch himself a few thousand times
[15:08]	:	damn griffer
[15:08]	:	seriously nothing jokingly has happened today
[15:08]	:	is it really april fools day?
[15:09]	:	did you see the youtube one?
[15:09]	:	no?
[15:09]	:	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnT7pT6zCcA&textp=fool
[15:09]	:	doesn't the new ToS count?
[15:09]	:	Looks like libcaca
[15:09]	:	Boroondas: hush :P
[15:09]	:	Oh, Google is now Topeka
[15:09]	:	or that one: Zimbabwe Switches to Linden Dollars : http://bit.ly/cTqo6Q
[15:09]	:	add &textp=fool on the end of youtube URLs
[15:10]	:	...XD
[15:10]	:	oh lord
[15:10]	:	http://youtube-global.blogspot.com/2010/03/textp-saves-youtube-bandwidth-money.html
[15:10]	:	thought that was great :D
[15:10]	:	wait is every video being put under text?
[15:10]	:	I've thought loads of times about doing that with SL's rendering
[15:11]	:	Aimee. want. make patch. nao.
[15:11]	:	not by default, you have to do that or pick textp in the resolution dropdown on the video if it's there
[15:11]	:	someone did that to quake a few years ago
[15:11]	:	Thickbrick: and it was AWESOME :)
[15:11]	:	heh ok yea
[15:12]	 	really needs to run
[15:12]	:	bye bye
[15:12]	:	effs
[15:12]	:	see you Merov, everybody else
[15:12]	:	Bye
[15:12]	:	Bye
[15:12]	:	Bye Aimee!
[15:13]	 	waves
 
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