Commerce Office Hours/2009-10-14 09:00

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* [9:00] Pink Linden: ok we'll give it just another minute or two for folks to show then we'll start
* [9:00] Ciaran Laval: You've set the landing point way over the way
* [9:00] Pink Linden: Siz is in Boston
* [9:01] Suella Ember: the wonders of a virtual world huh? no need to be in San Franscisco! lol
* [9:01] Colossus Linden: Man, I wish I could store the IMs I have for later :)
* [9:01] Rachel Darling: that's what it's all about
* [9:02] Suella Ember: coughs: busy mode! lol
* [9:02] Pink Linden: I'm sending a note to the in world merchants group
* [9:02] Colossus Linden: Thanks Pink. I've tweeted
* [9:02] Suella Ember: you know - i never knew this garden existed!
* [9:02] Rachel Darling: if Colossos "tweets," what does a Pink do?
* [9:03] Pink Linden: the team created it just for this purpose
* [9:03] Siz Linden: this garden is pretty new.
* [9:03] JB Hancroft: listens ...
* [9:03] Pink Linden: hi Yoshi
* [9:03] Suella Ember: ohhh cool!
* [9:03] Yoshi Zhangsun: hi eveyrone :)
* [9:03] Pink Linden: Hi Trilobyte
* [9:03] TriloByte Zanzibar: hi, good morning
* [9:03] Pink Linden: Ok, we'll get started now. the hour always goes by so fast
* [9:04] Pink Linden: Welcome everyone and thank you for taking time out of your busy day to talk with us
* [9:04] Pink Linden: The topical discussion today is Free items on Xstreet, aka "freebies"
* [9:04] Suella Ember: are we including "dollarbies" in the discussion too?
* [9:04] Pink Linden: Colossus has been looking into these based on a lot of community feedbackk
* [9:04] Pink Linden: yes, Suella
* [9:04] Suella Ember: k
* [9:04] Suella Ember: cool
* [9:05] Rachel Darling: but not "promos?"
* [9:05] Pink Linden: and Meta's been digging into the numbers along side of us
* [9:05] Rachel Darling: limited to freebies and dollarbies?
* [9:05] Pink Linden: we've been calling the others "cheapies"
* [9:05] Rachel Darling: nods
* [9:05] Pink Linden: and yes, we do differentiate between demos and freebie/cheapie
* [9:05] Colossus Linden: Rachel, to the extent that "promos" fit that price range, we'll discuss them as well
* [9:06] Pink Linden: so I'm going to turn over this office hour to Colossus....take it away!
* [9:06] Colossus Linden: Thanks Pink
* [9:06] Colossus Linden: and Thanks to everyone for coming
* [9:06] Colossus Linden: As Pink said, we'll be discussing Freebies
* [9:07] Colossus Linden: Agenda:
* 1. Issues
* - state issues
* - discuss issues
* 2. Solutions
* - present some options
* - accept other from crowd options
* - Discuss Options
* [9:07] Pink Linden: (hi Melchizedek, and welcome to office hours)
* [9:07] Colossus Linden: That's a short basic agenda. I'd like to start by clarifying the issues we face and feedback we've gotten from the community
* [9:08] Colossus Linden: See what else you all have to add
* [9:08] Melchizedek Blauvelt: /hi all
* [9:08] Colossus Linden: Then I'd like to discuss some of the options for solving our problems and better enabling all of our merchants
* [9:09] Colossus Linden: We've gotten a lot of feedback that the number of FREE and CHEAP items in the marketplace are a problem in a number of ways
* [9:09] JB Hancroft: hi Melchizedek
* [9:09] Colossus Linden: 1. They decrease the price that other merchants can charge within a category
* [9:09] Melchizedek Blauvelt: Heya JB
* [9:10] Colossus Linden: 2. They hinder the shopping experience because a "sort by price" puts all freebies first
* [9:11] Colossus Linden: 3. They garner so much attention that residents are driven toward the freebies instead of quality, realistically priced items.
* [9:11] TriloByte Zanzibar: so it's more a problem with your searching and sorting functions
* [9:11] Ann Otoole: who says virtual stuff priced high is "realistic"?
* [9:12] Pink Linden: let's let him get through first
* [9:12] Pink Linden: bear with us
* [9:12] Colossus Linden: And, for us running the marketplace, they are a large percentage of transactions which have associated costs but no value, which means that that cost must shared by all users.
* [9:12] Ann Otoole: Price fixing = FTC bait but amazingly predatory pricing is acceptable based on FTC lack of caring
* [9:12] Colossus Linden: Ann, good point there actually and we'll get back to that
* [9:12] Colossus Linden: Those are some of the basic issues
* [9:13] TriloByte Zanzibar: exactly, you want to avoid any XStreet involvement in telling merchants what prices are acceptable
* [9:13] Pink Linden: agreed TriloByte
* [9:13] JB Hancroft: pulls himself back into the conversation flow, now that his phone call is done...
* [9:13] Pink Linden: no intention there so let's keep moving
* [9:13] Colossus Linden: I'd like to open up to the crowd first to present, or rephrase these
* [9:13] Magggnnus Woodget: #2 and #4 seem valid. i cant believe #1 and #3 can be disputed
* [9:13] Colossus Linden: * to present others
* [9:14] Cherry Blossom: Tree : Falling Blossoms ON
* [9:14] Ciaran Laval: Number 4 hits the nail on the head, no cost to sell them at all but they are using the service.
* [9:14] Colossus Linden: Thanks Magggnnus
* [9:14] Ann Otoole: to take anything L$10 and under out and put them in a totally seperate category and then see where people really shop.
* [9:14] Yoshi Zhangsun: spend time pushing pricey items if youre worried about not making 10% on freebs :P
* [9:14] Magggnnus Woodget: i also see benefits of freebies for XSL: they lure new customers in, no?
* [9:15] Pink Linden: /welcome biancaluce
* [9:15] Yoshi Zhangsun: i get the featured cheapies because theyre right in front of me and seem a great deal
* [9:15] Biancaluce Robbiani: hi all 
* [9:15] Biancaluce Robbiani: Hi Pink
* [9:15] Rachel Darling: To Ciarin's point -- it makes it impossible for people charging a reasonable price to compete in the same market. XStreet is not like a RL market, in that there's no "cost" to sell.
* [9:15] Colossus Linden: Yoshi, when you say featured, you mean that someone has paid for a featured listing enhancement on?
* [9:15] Ann Otoole: i also cannot justify buying any enhancements for anything priced under L$500 so xstreet has some work to do on advertising enhancements since it is not cost justifiable under L$500 per unit
* [9:15] TriloByte Zanzibar: Yeah, I like to think that a great deal of my XStreet sales each week are from customers who discovered us through a gift
* [9:15] Suella Ember: i'd like to add that freebies / dollarbies can be a good method of promtion and driving traffic to Xstreet - the issue is that its flooded and, techically speaking, someone could almost get everything they eant for free if thery were prepared to look. Its a little catch 222. Freebies have value as promotional tools, but they need to be controlled somehow to stop them flooding the marketplace without that control being too heavy handed and unfair.
* [9:15] TriloByte Zanzibar: as happens in-world
* [9:15] Yoshi Zhangsun: yeah i dont often go freeb hunting but do like the featured cheapies
* [9:16] Rachel Darling: so it's not really a comparison to say we should all be able to price as we like, it's a free market.
* [9:16] Rachel Darling: and Suella's point is spot on the nose
* [9:16] Yoshi Zhangsun: but the theyre always on the popular list socant miss them
* [9:16] Ann Otoole: and some stuff needs to be free. sadly cryoban sells well, must be free, and is quite effective
* [9:16] Colossus Linden: Thanks Ann, I'll keep that in mind for a future office hours (advertisement options)
* [9:16] Ciaran Laval: Featured cheapies are paid for though
* [9:17] Suella Ember: (sorry - i always manage to make statements without solutions! lol)
* [9:17] Yoshi Zhangsun: yeah i use freebies for promotion, have quite a few on xstreet - there's no mass media in sl but there's certainly a lot of folks who love freebies regardless of wht they are
* [9:17] Colossus Linden: Suella, I think you make a good concise point
* [9:17] Rachel Darling: A suggestion is to separate out several categories -- because there ARE valid reasons for them: something like Freebies/Dollarbies, Promos, and Demos
* [9:17] Colossus Linden: Freebies & Cheapies have benefits, but the marketplace is a bit flooded with them.
* [9:17] Ciaran Laval: How flooded are we talking?
* [9:17] Suella Ember: yep Rchel - i like that idea
* [9:17] Rachel Darling: it lets the consumers who want them find them, but let's them compete separately in their own sphere
* [9:17] Ann Otoole: but to attempt to control prices will, in fact, drag the government in. perhaps it is needexd to corr3ect LL's opiinions on US law
* [9:18] Magggnnus Woodget: good question ciaran: what load do they cause?
* [9:18] Colossus Linden: Let's pause for a second, as I'm trying to catch up :)
* [9:18] Pink Linden: hold off on suggestions for just a bit folks. We want to make sure we all understand the problems first
* [9:18] JB Hancroft: I like that idea... would project to the consumer what they are getting for that low $L or 0 $L
* [9:18] Ciaran Laval: Can we just get Meta to throw out some sexy stats, I'm a big fan of stats
* [9:18] Ann Otoole: LL is not congress and any attempts to make law will be fought in DC
* [9:18] Colossus Linden: Yoshi, how many freebies do you have and how many do you feel you actually need for marketing?
* [9:19] Pink Linden: Ann, points are noted. Please stay on topic.
* [9:19] Colossus Linden: That is the biggest use I've heard of - using freebies as a marketing tool to drive shoppers to your other items
* [9:19] Yoshi Zhangsun: i think ive got about 5 up at the moment and yeah they definitely bring faces onto my sim
* [9:19] Ann Otoole: it is on topic pink. go get your lawyer in here
* [9:19] Yoshi Zhangsun: to be honest ive always seen slx as marketing over a sales space, althoug i make sales most customers i find from slx have tp'd in from the advert
* [9:19] Suella Ember: personally i have 5 dollarbies and one freebie - i think that is enough to highlighy my style and items. Then again - if every merchant has that many its an awful lot!
* [9:19] Yoshi Zhangsun: perhaps because i sell a lot of furniture and thy want to see in the prims but i dont know
* [9:20] Rachel Darling: nods at Suella and yoshi's comments and numbers, noting that hers are comparable
* [9:20] TriloByte Zanzibar: yeah, i'd like to see some stats as well. Specifically, what's the cost (in lindens) per item to actually process a transaction and deliver an item in-world. Secondly, what are total freebie admin/overhead costs compared with XSL's commission revenue?
* [9:20] seat whispers: Have a seat Grant Linden, You look tired
* [9:20] Ann Otoole: let's be specific. boot sellers are mad about people selling all colors boots for L$10. well that is all they are worth.
* [9:21] Ann Otoole: takes 30 minutes to make the script. boom done. there is no inherent value in them anymore
* [9:21] Pink Linden: TriloByte, we don't release specifics on that...but I will say that a disproportionate amount of costs are being caused by items that do not provide offsetting revenue.
* [9:21] Rachel Darling: the thing is, as noted -- we're using XSTreet as a promotional tool to gain brand identify. Which is smart, because there's no cost associated with it
* [9:21] Rachel Darling: and now EVERYONE is doing it, and so it's not even an effective tool to do that any longer, really
* [9:22] TriloByte Zanzibar: it's hard to work out a solution without getting an idea of the scope of the problem
* [9:22] Shep Korvin: Don't most digital asset marketplaces - for example, iTunes - charge content creators for the privilige of "giving away" content. I'm sure Xstreet/SL isn't the first marketplace to face this problem.
* [9:22] Pink Linden: we can no longer afford to support these items.
* [9:22] Ciaran Laval: Agree with TriloByte
* [9:22] Colossus Linden: Yes Rachel
* [9:22] TriloByte Zanzibar: ok, then the issue is kind of simple
* [9:22] Rachel Darling: add to that the number of freebie accounts in SL, who now no longer have to pay anything to LL to kit themselves out
* [9:22] Ciaran Laval: Well Pink then you're looking at listing fees for items under a certain value
* [9:22] Ann Otoole: so what will be the minimum price Pink?
* [9:22] Rachel Darling: or to content creators
* [9:22] Yoshi Zhangsun: well lots of dollerbies and cheapies i see on xstreet prob shouldnt be getting resold anyway
* [9:22] Ann Otoole: L$250?
* [9:22] JB Hancroft: So, Pink... it's a LL problem, not a merchant or consumer problem? Just trying to understand what population has the hurt.
* [9:22] Colossus Linden: Once you flood something, it can lose it's original value that caused the flooding, so I look at how to control or improve that.
* [9:22] Yoshi Zhangsun: ie, copied stuff sold for a quick few lindens
* [9:23] TriloByte Zanzibar: you need tohave a minimum commission per items sold, regardless of price
* [9:23] Rachel Darling: Ann -- no one's suggested that there has to be a min price yet
* [9:23] Pink Linden: JB, it's both an LL problem and an merchant problem
* [9:23] Rachel Darling: for instance, an initial listing fee would be enough to keep an open market
* [9:23] Colossus Linden: +1 Pink
* [9:23] Suella Ember: (late arrival coming!)
* [9:23] Rachel Darling: but not be a drain on the resources of XStreet
* [9:23] Colossus Linden: It is both. Frankly, any merchant problem is an LL problem
* [9:23] TriloByte Zanzibar: if a merchant wants to price at 0L, they'll literally be paying for each one sold... otherwise they set their price to 1L or 2L or whatever the cost ends up being
* [9:23] JB Hancroft: listens... I understand the LL side. Why is it a merchant problem? I want to understand... this is not meant as combative :)
* [9:23] Colossus Linden: I'll say that again ANY MERCHANT PROBLEM IS AN LL PROBLEM. We truly believe that.
* [9:23] Suella Ember: nudges Elita and tells her to sit down and behave! lol
* [9:24] Pink Linden: ok...JB...here's what we've heard
* [9:24] Yoshi Zhangsun: well heres an example, divali is coming p not many merchants out here have apealed to he hindu audiences of sl i made a free lamp put in on slx andhave ejoyed in worl sales as a result, great marketing
* [9:24] JB Hancroft: listens...
* [9:24] Rachel Darling: It's a merchant problem because we can't compete on an even playing field, JB
* [9:24] TriloByte Zanzibar: If the XSL bar was raised to a 1L minimum, I'd be fine with that
* [9:24] Rachel Darling: in RL, there is a cost of doing business
* [9:24] Rachel Darling: on XStreet there isn't
* [9:24] Colossus Linden: Okay folks, we're almost halfway through. I'd like to try to sum this up, get a few questions in and move to discuss some potential solutions
* [9:24] Elita Easterwood: ao off
* [9:25] Ann Otoole: ok so deny freebies on xstreet. people just move them in world. anything under whatever the floor is xstreet no longer gets any commission. or is LL going to force all sales to go through xstrteet?
* [9:25] Pink Linden: thanks Colossus. JB let's go into private chat, ok to share that with the community afterward.
* [9:25] JB Hancroft: yes... of course.
* [9:25] Colossus Linden: Let's remember that Xstreet is a tool for our merchants and our shoppers to provide a different shopping and selling experience
* [9:26] TriloByte Zanzibar: especially if sellers were allowed to put a link to their in-world store where it was available for free
* [9:26] Colossus Linden: As a number of you have said, you use it for marketing. It attracts different types of shoppers
* [9:26] TriloByte Zanzibar: agreed, i think xstreet is an invaluable tool for sellers
* [9:26] Colossus Linden: So, Xstreet does not have to mimic or support everything that in-world shopping and selling supports
* [9:27] Colossus Linden: So, the biggest thing that I've heard is that freebies and cheapies have value, but the market has become a bit flooded with them
* [9:27] Colossus Linden: Some of you would support a minimum price, but many of you oppose the idea of "price fixing"
* [9:27] Suella Ember: yep - agreed Colossus
* [9:27] Magggnnus Woodget: so what are possible solutions?
* [9:27] Ann Otoole: what about stuff that needs to be free?
* [9:27] Colossus Linden: Many of you have 5 or more freebies and realize that if every merchant does, that is probably too many
* [9:27] Ann Otoole: that isn't some escort boots or short dress but is a tool for combattting theft?
* [9:27] Colossus Linden: Ann, please give me more info
* [9:27] Yoshi Zhangsun: but thats not just an xstreet thing, i canbuy sculpty chucks, colour them in and release them for10L , its far easier to be a creator than it was. with everything costing L$ you ca expect people to wat to turn a very quick buck
* [9:28] Ann Otoole: [9:28
* [9:28] Suella Ember: fair point actually - there are some tools that benefit the whole community that should be free
* [9:28] TriloByte Zanzibar: i don't know, colossus, my 5-6 freebies are helping to generate thousands of lindens in commissions I pay xstreet each week, to say nothing of the costs of features
* [9:28] Melchizedek Blauvelt: Cryoban should be available for free Ann, someone mentioned it at Andrew's office hours yesterday
* [9:29] Ann Otoole: cryoban is a device used by merchants to do what LL will not. defend them from thieves. it has to be free. is LL now going to say it is not allowed free?
* [9:29] Colossus Linden: Ann, that's a good point, but I wonder if those items aren't a special case that should be outside of our general rules
* [9:29] Ciaran Laval: Trilo but don't you pay featured listing for some of your freebies?
* [9:29] Yoshi Zhangsun: well why not have a drive to get tose nebies putting cash into the game and spending
* [9:29] TriloByte Zanzibar: yes i do, features cost the same regardless of the item's price
* [9:29] Ann Otoole: they are a special case and honestly i don't want them in my sales data screwing up my charts
* [9:29] Yoshi Zhangsun: than wworry about impact of freebies
* [9:29] Ciaran Laval: So your freebies are being paid for is my point
* [9:29] Suella Ember: perhaps a "community tools" (or similar) category is needed - not sure how it would be policed though to make sure only genuine community tools are free
* [9:29] Pink Linden: that's good feedback Ann, noted. this is why we have office hours
* [9:30] Colossus Linden: Okay, let me go into some of the ideas we've had. I have some responses to the questions you have all asked, but I am doing my best not to drive you to 1 solution before you have some time to think
* [9:30] Colossus Linden: Okay, options:
* [9:30] Yoshi Zhangsun: if newbies are spendingfrom day 1 they will not come to expect freebs
* [9:30] TriloByte Zanzibar: agreed, ann, i think that certain items of "civic value" should be distributed by LL at no charge to members or merchants
* [9:30] Rachel Darling: raises her hand
* [9:30] Colossus Linden: 1. Limit to free listings or listings under price L$X
* [9:31] Colossus Linden: - Hard limit of 3 per merchant. Perhaps a monthly fee to list those 3 or to have a higher limit
* [9:31] JB Hancroft: Trilobyte - depends on who owns the IP of those "civic value" items
* [9:31] TriloByte Zanzibar: a monthly listing fee would be acceptable
* [9:31] Colossus Linden: 2. Time Limit - add an incentive to remove cheap items. No item under L$X can remain listed for more than a month
* [9:31] Suella Ember: a REASONABLE monthy listing fee! hehe
* [9:31] Ann Otoole: charge me for freebies and they just move in world and go out in groups
* [9:32] Ann Otoole: LL cannot beat this unles LL bans all sales and transfers in world
* [9:32] TriloByte Zanzibar: a time limit would be a problem for me, we only make/offer a few freebie items per year
* [9:32] Colossus Linden: 3. Marketing Enhancement. - Freebies and cheapies are used as a marketing tool. Just like listing enhancements they should be priced by the month. Make a monthly fee of L$99-L$2899 to list a freebie (just like listing enhancements)
* [9:32] Pink Linden: Ann, we anticipated that response and are fine with freebies in world.
* [9:32] TriloByte Zanzibar: a time limit forces sellers to make/repackage stuff to get around the time limit
* [9:32] Yoshi Zhangsun: yeah i know some friens of mine browse slx for freebies whent heyre bored,grid is broken etc... and in doing so see products they like also...
* [9:32] JB Hancroft: #2 - people would just unlist and then re-list with minor changes :(
* [9:33] Colossus Linden: 4. Freebie Marketplace - Separate freebies into a separate shopping experience which is designed to better advertise the items which are not free. - create a new advertising opportunity
* [9:33] TriloByte Zanzibar: #3 makes sense as well, colossus
* [9:33] Yoshi Zhangsun: and well some amazing freeb creators like arcadia asylum give many creators their start
* [9:33] Ciaran Laval: 3 does make sense
* [9:33] Colossus Linden: 5. Removal - ban all freebies and all items below L$X
* [9:33] Rachel Darling: thought of idea 4 before as well and thinks it has merit
* [9:33] Ann Otoole: in addition, and unless LL bans it, LL is now shoving people to slapt, apex, and other markwetplaces. you can't stop it unless you ban third party marketplaces
* [9:33] TriloByte Zanzibar: a freebie marketplace does have a lot of merit
* [9:33] Melchizedek Blauvelt: Would it be feasible to list freebies relative to the amount of listed pay-for items? Like one freebie per 50/75/100... pay-for items listed
* [9:33] Magggnnus Woodget: #1 and #4 are my two favorites! (are there more?)
* [9:34] Rachel Darling: but it might cause XStreet to degenerate in traffic
* [9:34] Colossus Linden: Okay, those are the items I had in a list before I came in here. Some of these, such as banning freebies all together, I don't actually think are a good idea, but I want to hear your thoughts. Let's start with some other options that I have not brought up
* [9:34] Colossus Linden: then we can discuss all of them.
* [9:34] Rachel Darling: Suggestion here, please?
* [9:34] Suella Ember: intersting suggestion Melchizedek
* [9:34] Rachel Darling: sort of a highbred
* [9:34] Melchizedek Blauvelt: Or one freebie per amount of L$ traded, make it like a reward system
* [9:34] TriloByte Zanzibar: #3 or #4 make the most sense to me
* [9:34] JB Hancroft: I like that approach... some $L transactions (presumably) to help fund the listing of freebies
* [9:34] Yoshi Zhangsun: i wouldnt mind paying for listings but yeah i kno that would throw any out of xstreet marketplace and into others
* [9:34] Magggnnus Woodget: melchizedeks suggestion = good addition to #1
* [9:34] Ann Otoole: people will list 500 shades of a log to game the freebie limits
* [9:35] Rachel Darling: Differentiate promos from freebies and dollarbies and demos. Give them each their own category. Charge initial listing fees for those categories, and add a time l imit on promos to boot
* [9:35] Rachel Darling: but keep them on the same site
* [9:35] Suella Ember: ~1, #4 and possible a version of #3 get my vote
* [9:35] TriloByte Zanzibar: assuming, of course, that you can systemically fix search and sort results so freebies don't gain an unfair advantage over other wares
* [9:35] Ann Otoole: yes force promos to a non popularity index
* [9:35] Rachel Darling: they CAN be a service. But we just can't compete with them in the regular categories, and XStreet cannot afford to be a freebie marketplace entirely. It WILL become that if we continue on the way we are now
* [9:35] Shep Korvin: 3 or 4 seem the sanest to me too (with a slight bias for 3).
* [9:36] Yoshi Zhangsun: it wont there will always be people who pay for quality
* [9:36] TriloByte Zanzibar: i mean, even searching my own items and ranking by popularity, i never actually get my own top xstreet sellers at the top of the list... something doesn't work right
* [9:36] Colossus Linden: Melchizedek suggested - earning the right to freebies by listing or selling items at a higher price
* [9:36] Pink Linden: we're making note of the all the ideas, we may not be able to respond to each one in this chat
* [9:36] Ann Otoole: basically look at everyone doing well and destroy their business and the rest will be pleased
* [9:36] Meta Linden: asks - what about demos, for merchants who have a lot of products?
* [9:36] Ciaran Laval: We can't get into price fixing territory, 3 seems the most sensible slution, demos however are problematic and don't fit in here.
* [9:36] Rachel Darling: no, people don't always pay for quality, especially when there are so many free accounts as a percentage of residents
* [9:37] Magggnnus Woodget: variation of #3 i like better: paying 1L$ per freebie sold
* [9:37] TriloByte Zanzibar: meta - we don't do demos for our clothing items, instead we use a free item people can have to get a sense of how our stuff fits/works
* [9:37] Magggnnus Woodget: or: minimum transaction fee of 1L$ on all items
* [9:37] Rachel Darling: some people DO really offer free items out of the goodness of their hearts
* [9:37] Yoshi Zhangsun: but the merchants should not have to pay for thos free accounts, we pay a lot already ;)
* [9:37] Ann Otoole: paying L$1 minimum commisiion just set the floor to L$10 and all the freebies show in popularity
* [9:37] Colossus Linden: I've seen some favor for options #3 & #4
* [9:37] Suella Ember: demos could have their own category that is independant from what is being suggested here - however the problem, as always, is policing it and stopping peole from gaming it (putting freebies in as demos when they are not etc)
* [9:38] Yoshi Zhangsun: yeah demos can be confusig on xstreet, ive bought some i the past thinking they were product
* [9:38] Rachel Darling: the minimum listing fee for items under 50L would help with that, Suella
* [9:38] Suella Ember: demos are pretty essential for stuff like skins though
* [9:38] Ciaran Laval: Those who want to offer freebies out of the goodness of their hearts should be able to submkit them to a freebie shop separate from their other listings
* [9:39] Colossus Linden: Magggnnus, there is a risk with paying per sold item that the fee could be much greater, but it is an option
* [9:39] Ann Otoole: yes seperate freebie zone not showing in regular searches is a great idea
* [9:39] Rachel Darling: Right -- a freebie category, and a demo category, and a Promo category. Frankly, they should all be treated as separate animals
* [9:39] Colossus Linden: Meta brings up a good point on demos. (I'm reading to catch up).
* [9:39] Yoshi Zhangsun: yep
* [9:39] TriloByte Zanzibar: yeah, set the bar to something like 50L for a 'bargain marketplace' of sorts, which would cover freebies and the cheapies that are so slight they don't generate an appreciable commission revenue
* [9:39] Suella Ember: yep - agreed Rachel - and i like the idenpendent form the main markeptpalce suggestions
* [9:39] Yoshi Zhangsun: but that may encourage more costly (?) freebie transactions
* [9:39] Magggnnus Woodget: seperate categories for freebies and demos plus more search filters would do the trick for the user, but won't reduce load on the servers
* [9:40] Shep Korvin: if people are offering demos, then one assumes the demo should be linked to a full price product? Maybe only list the demo as part of the full price item's page - don't include it in general search. (so, for example, on a page for a L$1000 skin, there's a free demo version link ... but the skin is listed/searched as L$1000)
* [9:40] Colossus Linden: Ciaran, many of these options still allow freebies. Also, we're not discussing fees in-world at the moment.
* [9:40] Ann Otoole: whatever you do the same people with 100 alts is still going to buy their stuff to the top using the many auto proxy clients out there so we are still faced with a totally gamed marketplace
* [9:40] TriloByte Zanzibar: good point, magggnnus... the fee and enhancement structure would need to be analyzed to figure out how to make some sense
* [9:40] Rachel Darling: I have a question, for the Lindens here -- are we limited in what we can do, based on technological issues with the site the way it's designed now?
* [9:41] TriloByte Zanzibar: but since they're not making the data available, proposing a solution would be difficult
* [9:41] Colossus Linden: Additionally, if you really want to distribute a freebie when the rest of the merchant and shopper base foots the expenses, why does that merchant not want to do it when they are asked to cover the expense of distribution of those freebies?
* [9:41] Rachel Darling: nods at Colossos statement
* [9:41] Suella Ember: true
* [9:41] Ann Otoole: what is the expense of distributing a freebie collossus?
* [9:41] Yoshi Zhangsun: i see freebies as a draw to xstreet
* [9:42] JB Hancroft: freebies, demos, etc.... are really just categories of the goods. I think it's a way to differentiate them one from another, if there was a requirement that they be properly labelled and allow people select in and out, on that basis.
* [9:42] Ann Otoole: excactly what does LL pay?
* [9:42] Yoshi Zhangsun: as well as t the mrchants
* [9:42] Colossus Linden: Alts are an issue with # limits, which is why I think fees (like with marketing) may be best
* [9:42] Suella Ember: also true Yoshi - in a way those who list freebies are helping traffic to Xstreet, but not necessaruly paying traffic. Its the Catch22 again :)
* [9:42] Colossus Linden: Ann, I can't share hard costs, but for any item on Xstreet there are data storage, data transfer, listing review, item delivery, etc. costs.
* [9:43] Ann Otoole: and if those messages are that expensive why isn't LL charging for every object message in and out of SL?
* [9:43] Rachel Darling: votes for fees, and would still like to see Promos treated differently than Demos, and than Freebie/Dollarbies for brand promotion. so they can be addressed separately and appropriately for what each of them are, and offer to consumers
* [9:43] Colossus Linden: When you start getting into hundreds of thousands and millions of transactions, these add up
* [9:43] Ann Otoole: prolly should not have planted that seed lmao
* [9:43] Yoshi Zhangsun: lol
* [9:43] JB Hancroft: thx Ann ;)
* [9:43] Pink Linden: notes ann's ideas down. hehe
* [9:43] Colossus Linden: Yoshi, I agree that there is value if they are not flooding the market which is why I actually don't want to ban them
* [9:43] JB Hancroft: tears up Pink's notes... (nicely, of course)
* [9:43] Magggnnus Woodget: but those costs are promotional expenses for xsl in a way, right?
* [9:44] Colossus Linden: And I believe in a free market which is why I'd rather have the cost of the freebie set by the value one gets from a freebie
* [9:44] JB Hancroft: Collosus, those per-listing costs... why not just have there be a minimum per-listing $L cost?
* [9:44] Pink Linden: *ahem* WE believe in a free market
* [9:44] Rachel Darling: if someone thinks they're 10L item has value, why wouldn't they be willing to pay a listing fee? If not, then a lot of the "junk" would sort it's own self out
* [9:44] Suella Ember: old habits! lol
* [9:44] Colossus Linden: Rachel I'd like to get back to demo and promo items
* [9:44] Ciaran Laval: When do fees kick in?
* [9:44] Ciaran Laval: What price?
* [9:44] Ann Otoole: ok data storage. why do you allow 8MB images? why not set some realistic maximums and enforce via code so we don't get all these eye bleeding animated gifs?
* [9:45] Pink Linden: noted, Ann.
* [9:45] Colossus Linden: JB, I'll look at that as well
* [9:45] JB Hancroft: If someone believes in a "freebie" - for whatever reason, let them subsidize the listing of that.
* [9:45] TriloByte Zanzibar: it's a 5% fee, so 20L is where it turns into 1L in commission, isn't it?
* [9:45] Colossus Linden: I think that there are a lot of areas where we can improve the shopping and selling experience and I appreciate the feedback
* [9:45] Ann Otoole: 10L = 1L commission
* [9:46] Ciaran Laval: No it's lower than that Trilo, L$10 get a fee
* [9:46] Ciaran Laval: is 9 the magic number?
* [9:46] Magggnnus Woodget: no trilo - 10, dont forget rounding ;)
* [9:46] Colossus Linden: Okay, Demo/promo
* [9:46] Colossus Linden: who uses a lot of demo and promo items here?
* [9:46] Colossus Linden: Are they free, cheap, what?
* [9:46] Rachel Darling: uses promos
* [9:46] Yoshi Zhangsun: i think less freebies will prob mean more shopping in world, i dont mind either. i guess it depends where you want to go with the worlds biggest virtual shopping website
* [9:46] Suella Ember: ummm question - what are we actually definig as a "promo"?
* [9:46] Rachel Darling: cheap promos, subsets of new outfits, or distinct colors
* [9:46] Ciaran Laval: hair and skins are going to be the big demo categories I'd have thought
* [9:46] JB Hancroft: I look at them, as a consumer, to give me an idea of what the "real" product might be like - quality, etc.
* [9:47] Colossus Linden: Rachel, what would these solutions do to your business if you couldn't do free promo items or if they cost you some money to keep up?
* [9:47] Rachel Darling: I'ts a new item advertisement device, for clothing, for me
* [9:47] Ann Otoole: don't get me wrong. if i never saw another darkstone elle inc ripoff sculpt in 20 million colors for 10L i would be pleased
* [9:47] Rachel Darling: I would pay to list a promo, especially in a special Promo category, Colossus
* [9:47] Colossus Linden: Thanks Suella, good, I want to talk about Demo items. Thanks
* [9:47] Suella Ember: ok - so we are saying promos are limited time unlike freebies/dollarbies?
* [9:47] Rachel Darling: because frankly a promo doesn't show up well in the regular category anyway
* [9:47] Rachel Darling: since default sort is by price, descending
* [9:48] Rachel Darling: so a promo sort of cancels itself out, it doesn't get notice
* [9:48] Colossus Linden: So, if this is a limited functionality item that is meant to allow a customer to demo a product and then purchase the fully functional, non-free/cheap version
* [9:48] JB Hancroft: What categories would you like to see, Rachel?
* [9:48] Rachel Darling: so typically I listed them on the homepage featured, with a promo price
* [9:48] Rachel Darling: for me, no
* [9:48] Rachel Darling: it's an introduction to a new outfit or series of outfits
* [9:48] Rachel Darling: get them to buy the short skirt and blouse at a discounted price in one color, they like it, they come back for more
* [9:48] Rachel Darling: and it gets exposure as well
* [9:48] Suella Ember: colossues - your last staement - yes, thats what i would define as a "demo"
* [9:49] Rachel Darling: and I'd pay for that
* [9:49] JB Hancroft: so you're using pricing as a promo tool, not categorizing your product as "promo"
* [9:49] Rachel Darling: well, sometimes I do give a "Promo price,' limited time only as well
* [9:49] Rachel Darling: with a featured listing
* [9:49] JB Hancroft: ok...
* [9:49] Ann Otoole: promo tool should be such you set it to a promo, as an enhancement paid for, and at the end of the promo the price resets to normal price
* [9:49] Rachel Darling: but again, within the regular categories, sort is an issue...it still won't show up til you reverse sort by cheaper rather than more expensive
* [9:50] Colossus Linden: So, it doesn't sound like any of you are afraid of how trying to control free and cheap items a bit would affect demo items
* [9:50] Suella Ember: ok - i do get the concept of what you are saying about promos Rachel - im just not quite sure how they would be distigusied from freebies / cheepies?
* [9:50] Colossus Linden: that is good to hear. If I am incorrect, please speak up
* [9:50] Rachel Darling: because I charge more than 1L
* [9:50] JB Hancroft: Colossus - do you get complaints about cheap limited functionality versions, when people though they were getting the real thing?
* [9:50] Rachel Darling: I just do a good deal on the item....maybe half price, quarter price
* [9:50] Rachel Darling: so I don't devalue the item
* [9:50] Shep Korvin: Like I pointed out earlier... why should a "demo" be listed cheaper than the item it's demonstrating? It should - ideally - be inextricably linked to the listing for the item it's demo-ing.
* [9:50] Ann Otoole: give us a promo enhancement option
* [9:50] Suella Ember: ok - im with you now Rachel
* [9:50] Yoshi Zhangsun: my only worry is some of the big freebie givers like arcadia asylum, would have hefty fees to pay yet those people give a lot to the community, albiet free
* [9:50] Ciaran Laval: I'm just concerned you won't be able to tecnically do it Colossus, demos need to remain free.
* [9:50] Colossus Linden: JB, I have not gotten complaints on that. Our merchants generally do a good job of clearly stating that an item is a demo item of limited functionality
* [9:51] JB Hancroft: ok... good to know :)
* [9:51] Colossus Linden: Hey Shep, long term, I'll look at ways to link demo items to the item they are demoing. Good Feedback.
* [9:52] Colossus Linden: Promo enhancement option - I'm listening Ann - may be slightly off topic, but I'm curious to hear a quick concise description of what you want.
* [9:52] Shep Korvin: and once they're linked, remove them from regular listings. So, I click on a skin page, I can download the free demo from there. The demo skin doesn't have to appear as a freebie/dollarbie/whateverbie in any of the regular search results.
* [9:52] Suella Ember: im just gonna try and summarise some distinctions if thats ok - Freebies/dollarbies - not time limited - just items given awy freely/cheeply for whatever reason. Demos - a limited functionality version of an item, probably given for freee just as a "test item" (ie skins). Promo - A limiited time special offer / prmotional product. Am i right?
* [9:52] Colossus Linden: Yoshi, sounds like I should reach out to Arcadia Asylum. But, I will warn that they may not be best served by Xstreet.
* [9:53] Rachel Darling: Yes, Suella; that's exactly how I see it
* [9:53] Suella Ember: k good - just wanted to make sure i was on the same wavelength! lol
* [9:53] Yoshi Zhangsun: well thats just one creator who comes to mind but i know a lot of texture stores give monthly sample packs i colect those when i remember so i know whats new
* [9:53] Rachel Darling: thanks for summarizing it so concisely
* [9:53] Yoshi Zhangsun: those packs are freebies
* [9:54] Yoshi Zhangsun: im sure many other creators take advantage too
* [9:54] Ann Otoole: promo enhancement: you pay a fee to have your product placed in a specail promo category that makes it to the dashboard, etc. at the end of the paid term the price resets to normal.
* [9:54] Rachel Darling: applauds Ann's idea
* [9:54] Colossus Linden: I had not separated out promo items beforew suella. Is there really a difference from freebie/dollarbies?
* [9:54] Yoshi Zhangsun: and for promos, i was just thinking im sure i saw Siz Lindens outfit on promo not so long ago and liked it lol
* [9:54] Suella Ember: yep, nice idea
* [9:54] Colossus Linden: 5 minutes all. Need to start wrapping up.
* [9:54] Rachel Darling: there is, Colossus. They're different animals
* [9:54] Ann Otoole: promo idea needs hashing out but you guys can figure it all out
* [9:55] Rachel Darling: and it's an "opportunity" for XStreet if you can implement a suggestion like Ann's
* [9:55] Colossus Linden: Okay. There has been some great feedback here
* [9:55] Colossus Linden: Of the 5 options that I started with, could we get a quick vote of what you would all prefer?
* [9:55] JB Hancroft: Ann's idea means that there is a place for consumers to go who are looking for a "bargain"... that they are getting a full product, not a cheap workup/knockoff, but for a price advantage.
* [9:55] Pink Linden: +1 whew a lot of ground to cover
* [9:55] Rachel Darling: right now promos get lost because of the default price sort
* [9:55] Colossus Linden: you've heard a bit of what your fellow merchants and shoppers have to say
* [9:55] Rachel Darling: even if you buy a listing enhancement
* [9:56] Ciaran Laval: Ok one point of concern is that I'm not seeing the point at which the bar of cheapies is set, what price are you talking about?
* [9:56] Shep Korvin: why would people pay for a temporary price drop, when they can just manually re-list at a lower price? (or are we talking about a price drop below some hypothetical minimum listing price?)
* [9:56] Rachel Darling: As a merchant, I can't really vote for any one solution when I see the issues between Promos, Freebies/Dollarbies, and Demos as separate ones
* [9:56] Suella Ember: This is a little off topic, and there are probably technical difficulties with this - but if possible it would be good to see these options and ideas colated and perhaps a voting system of some sort presented to all Xstreet merchants before a solution is decided upon?
* [9:57] Colossus Linden: Good point Ciaran, but we don't have time to get into that at the moment.
* [9:57] Colossus Linden: Vote may be a bad term. Are there options that seem better or worse than the others?
* [9:57] Melchizedek Blauvelt: Colossus, I'm for an escalating reward system: first freebie at say, 5K l$ traded on Xstreet, second freebie at say, 20K L$ traded, 3rd freebie at 100K L$ traded
* [9:57] Yoshi Zhangsun: i think freebies help make the world go around, your own skin looks pretty basic collosus (no offence if it was expensive) but my guess is it was a freebie/cheapie and im sure you've 'paid' for that transaction if it was in other ways
* [9:58] Melchizedek Blauvelt: Something which benefits beginning traders, established traders and LL as well it seems
* [9:58] Suella Ember: thats why i think LL need to come back with some solidified suggestions and proposals to "vote" on - or at least to present in a blog post or whatever to get more feedback. I think basucally what im saying is we've thrown around lots of great ideas here, but not decided which (if any) are the most poular ideas/
* [9:58] Colossus Linden: My skin was me using our actual in-world tools myself
* [9:58] Colossus Linden: But yes, I should look at buying one from a professional, as much as I am proud of my amateur work :)
* [9:59] Rachel Darling: A. Create separate categories for Freebies/Dollarbies, Promos, and Demos. B. Charge initial listing fees for Freebies/Dollarbies. C. Create a Promo Listing Enhancement for Promos. But above all, keep them out of the main categories, please
* [9:59] JB Hancroft: I would like to see the 5+ options summarized, with some flushed-out text, to explain them in more detail.
* [9:59] Yoshi Zhangsun: right and if you werent working for LL you might have put that up as a cheapie to begin your skin business
* [9:59] Shep Korvin: 3 or 4 gmv. Whatever they were.
* [9:59] Colossus Linden: Okay folks. We have two more sessions today
* [9:59] Colossus Linden: at 4pm SLT & 9pm SLT
* [9:59] JB Hancroft: here?
* [9:59] Colossus Linden: I'd be happy to have any of you back. We'll have a similar discussion, but you never know what other points of view will show up
* [9:59] Pink Linden: We will post transcripts shortly after today for all 3 sessions.
* [9:59] Colossus Linden: same place
* [9:59] Pink Linden: yes the sesions will be here
* [9:59] JB Hancroft: (Very interesting discussion... thank you! :)
* [10:00] Rachel Darling: Thank you for doing this. And the topic is definitely a welcome one.
* [10:00] Suella Ember: kk - thanks guys! my brain hurst but it was worth it! lol
* [10:00] Colossus Linden: At the moment, there is general agreement that freebies and cheapies have some value, but adding a fee to control or limit them may be the best option - or moving them to a separate area
* [10:00] Colossus Linden: # limits sound like they would be too easily gamed
* [10:00] TriloByte Zanzibar: thanks a lot for having us
* [10:00] Yoshi Zhangsun: if LL does dampen the effect of freebies as a marketing tactic, will we be seeing new avenues open from LL?
* [10:00] Colossus Linden: And merchants are not concerned about how this would affect demo items
* [10:00] Yoshi Zhangsun: if LL does dampen the effect of freebies as a marketing tactic, will we be seeing new avenues open from LL?
* [10:00] Colossus Linden: And merchants are not concerned about how this would affect demo items
* [10:01] Colossus Linden: Thanks All. Please contact me on the Commerce forums if you would like to chat with me more (or in-world, but commerce forums gives me a place to track in private messages)
* [10:01] JB Hancroft: I think those are decent take-aways, for now, Colossus, yes.
* [10:01] Ciaran Laval: If you could implement Shep's proposal about demos being linked only to the item it would be a vast improvement but demos must remain free
* [10:01] Colossus Linden: Thanks JB
* [10:01] Rachel Darling: agrees for the most part with Colossos summary