Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2012.04.24

Simulator_User_Group
Prev 2012.04.20	Next 2012.04.27
== List of Speakers ==
Andrew Linden 	Chieron Tenk 	Elisha Richez
Fancy Detector 	Flip Idlemind 	Ima Mechanique
Jonathan Yap 	Kallista Destiny	Kelly Linden
Kitto Flora 	Liisa Runo 	Motor Loon
Nalates Urriah 	Qie Niangao 	Rex Cronon
Sahkolihaa Contepomi	Simon Linden 	TankMaster Finesmith
TheBlack Box 	Vincent Nacon 	Yuzuru Jewell
== Transcript ==
[12:03] Andrew Linden: cool, we have a gambling table today
[12:03] Andrew Linden: deal me in
[12:03] Yuzuru Jewell: Sorry, Yap..
[12:03] Jonathan Yap: ?
[12:03] Flip Idlemind: Thanks to my LSL Preprocessor I only have to change one line to switch from sensors + viewer chat to llGetAgentList
[12:03] Flip Idlemind: Yay!
[12:03] Simon Linden: nice
[12:04] Yuzuru Jewell: I pushed you.
[12:04] Andrew Linden: News... I've been working on an interestlist bug in the pathfinding code... caused by some minor cleanup I attempted
[12:04] Andrew Linden: but I'
[12:04] Andrew Linden: I've fixed that bug
[12:04] Flip Idlemind: Coolio
[12:04] Andrew Linden: and the good news is that I did a little optimization along the way
[12:04] Andrew Linden: we used to only do 2D culling
[12:04] Vincent Nacon: on what?
[12:05] TheBlack Box: i played with pathfinding ... very fun stuff ... was the bug you fixed about llPersue not working well on stationary targets ?
[12:05] Andrew Linden: so that if objects were far above or below we would still send you updates, but I put in some Z-dependency
[12:05] Andrew Linden: so we'll see how that works
[12:05] TheBlack Box: ah kk
[12:05] Andrew Linden: No TheBlack, I didn't fix that bug, but maybe Falcon has a fix for it. Dunno.
[12:05] Andrew Linden: We should get another pathfinding update deployed this week.
[12:06] Andrew Linden: Also, the bug about the HUD attachments not getting updates when you moved your camera far away from your avatar... that bug is fixed.
[12:06] Flip Idlemind: AKA SVC-7792 ?
[12:06] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7792
[#SVC-7792] HUD Attachments Receive Infrequent Updates when Camera is Zoomed Out
[12:06] Andrew Linden: Kelly fixed it in a maintenance project that should get out soon.
[12:06] Kallista Destiny: did SVC-7845 get fixed hopefully?
[12:06] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7845
[#SVC-7845] Group notices are not sent to users from 12.04.13.253827 RC
[12:06] TheBlack Box: very cool stuff ... i use it for some simulated evolution experiments ... but the test-sims are pretty slow i think ... i need more juice :)
[12:06] Andrew Linden: Yeah, that one Flip.
[12:06] Flip Idlemind: Woooo!
[12:07] Flip Idlemind: I haven't tested pathfinding extensively, but a couple times, an object I had called llPursue on, ran away from me .()
[12:07] Simon Linden: That fix should roll out tomorrow, Kallista
[12:07] Kallista Destiny: llPrusued() Lol
[12:07] Andrew Linden: I'm *think* kelly had a fix for the group notices. Yeah.
[12:08] Kallista Destiny: It's not mentioned in the deply list is why I asked
[12:08] TheBlack Box: any idea when PRIM_SLICE ( https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SCR-15 ) will roll out grid-wide
[12:08] JIRA-helper: [#SCR-15] Add flag parameter [vector slice] to llSetPrimitiveParams PRIM_TYPE flags PRIM_TYPE_BOX, PRIM_TYPE_CYLINDER, and PRIM_TYPE_PRISM
[12:08] Andrew Linden: Also, we were doing interestlist culling based on your avatar position, rather than your camera position
[12:08] Andrew Linden: although we had code that could follow the camera instead
[12:08] Andrew Linden: so I turned that on (in the pathfinding project) so we'll see how that changes things too
[12:09] Flip Idlemind: Yay for the interest list getting some attention :D
[12:09] Vincent Nacon whispers: but is that optional, Andrew?
[12:09] Andrew Linden: Anyway, I thought I would mention those bug fixes since they've probably been bugging you all for a while.
[12:09] Vincent Nacon: ahh stupid whisper key
[12:09] Andrew Linden: Vincent, it isn't optional on a per-viewer basis
[12:10] Vincent Nacon: then that's gonna be a problem for some people
[12:10] Vincent Nacon: mostly photographers
[12:10] Andrew Linden: however it is possible to disable the "cull by camera position instead of avatar" on a per-host basis
[12:10] Fancy Detector: Kelly Linden has arrived!
[12:11] Flip Idlemind: It makes more sense this way. The list of what you can see should be based on the position from which you actually see
[12:11] Andrew Linden: that is, we have a config file that allows us to disable the new behavior and go back to the old way if necessary
[12:11] Simon Linden: Why would that be a problem for photographers? I would guess they would want more detail based on where their camera is
[12:11] Rex Cronon whispers: greetings
[12:11] Andrew Linden: yeah, I don't understand the photographer problem.
[12:11] Vincent Nacon: yeah and some angling they may try
[12:11] Vincent Nacon: some times they don't shoot themselves
[12:12] Andrew Linden: No, I don't believe it. The pathfinding server-side culling should just be more correct now.
[12:12] Vincent Nacon whispers: wait what?
[12:12] Andrew Linden: No matte where they are looking, the data sent to them should be more correct.
[12:12] Vincent Nacon stabs the whisper key...
[12:13] Andrew Linden: That's all the news that I've got.
[12:13] Vincent Nacon: maybe i'm confused.. you're culling based on character (pathfinding object) view?
[12:13] Simon Linden: I can talk about this mornings server update....
[12:14] Simon Linden: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2012-04-23/m-p/1500935#M5092
[12:14] Vincent Nacon: nice prim slice in
[12:14] TheBlack Box: yes !!
[12:14] Simon Linden: The main channel was updated with new code in the backend for inventory management
[12:14] Vincent Nacon: now you can stop asking about it
[12:14] TheBlack Box: any idea when PRIM_SLICE will be available grid-wide ?
[12:14] Vincent Nacon: :P
[12:14] Vincent Nacon: oy
[12:15] Flip Idlemind: Next week, one would hope
[12:15] Kelly Linden: TheBlack Box: with luck as early as next Tuesday, though it could be longer.
[12:15] Andrew Linden: No Vincent. I'm culling based on your avatar's "camera", which is the center and field-of-view of your client.
[12:15] TheBlack Box: thanks Kelly :) the sooner the better
[12:15] Simon Linden: Tomorrow Magnum will be updated with a bug fix for that group notice problem, but otherwise has the new goodies PRIM_SLICE and llGetRegionAgents()
[12:15] Vincent Nacon: ah ok... then it's still can be a problem for some people
[12:15] Rex Cronon: tbb, does prim_slice cuts a prim like a cake?
[12:16] Simon Linden: Keep your virtual appendages crossed and that may get onto the full grid next week
[12:16] TheBlack Box: PRIM_SLICE and llGetRegionAgents() are already on magnum
[12:16] Vincent Nacon: best to make that optional, maybe just leave it in debug setting
[12:16] Simon Linden: Finally, the fly height limit was raised to 5km this morning on the whole grid
[12:16] Andrew Linden: Vincent, perhaps you could elaborate on how that would cause a problem?
[12:16] Jonathan Yap: So, no more flight feathers?
[12:16] Simon Linden: Right, they shouldn't be needed
[12:16] Flip Idlemind: Out of curiosity, and I understand if you can't tell me, what was changed that broke group notices
[12:17] Simon Linden: ... and if anyone finds a flight assist that sends you into orbit, I'd love to hear about it
[12:17] Kallista Destiny: OK, it wasnt mentioned in the notice...
[12:17] Vincent Nacon: I can't really explain people's force of habit nor their picky-ness choice of viewing.
[12:18] Simon Linden: Flip - it was related to some other work related to handling very large groups and notices. The sequence of fetching members and sending the notices was re-worked as the old code would sometimes hurt performance pretty badly
[12:18] TheBlack Box: Rex: PRIM_SLICE is what shuold really be called path-cut on box, cylinder and prism ... and what is called path-cut now should actually be called profile-cut :)
[12:18] Andrew Linden: So this is a theoretical problem Vincent? based on statistical data? (each change will always bother *someone* ?)
[12:19] Rex Cronon: i am asking because this page doesn't really explain what prim_slice is used for: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/PRIM_SLICE
[12:19] Vincent Nacon: no statistical data, but it's a very good hunch
[12:19] TheBlack Box: Rex: in the build menu on newer viewers ... it is called "Slice" ... but it cuts the path ... and "path-cut" cuts the profile
[12:20] Vincent Nacon: just go ahead cull that way as default but at least make it optional in debug setting if it's not that many people gonna be annoyed by it
[12:20] Rex Cronon: tanks tbb:)
[12:20] Vincent Nacon: but if it's more than enough, you'
[12:20] Vincent Nacon: you'll know for sure ;)
[12:20] Rex Cronon: thanks*
[12:21] TheBlack Box: np
[12:21] Jonathan Yap: was SVC-7853 on purpose or by accident?
[12:21] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7853
[#SVC-7853] Newly created notecards dont auto open in the viewer on 12.04.12.253726, BlueSteel or Le Tigre regions
[12:21] Vincent Nacon: total accident, yup
[12:21] Kallista Destiny: Accident, see above
[12:21] Rex Cronon: that wiki page is kind of useless
[12:21] Kitto Flora: Andrew, what do you know of the Havok memory leak? (SVC-7749)
[12:21] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7749
[#SVC-7749] Rez of vehicle gets message "Unable to create item '<object name>' that has caused problems on this region. Other vehicles are forced non-phys on enter.
[12:22] Andrew Linden: Kitto, this is the first I've heard of it.
[12:22] Simon Linden: I haven't heard of that one, Jonathan, and am honestly confused why the server would change that behavior
[12:22] Kitto Flora: Wow.
[12:22] Simon Linden: Opening the notecard seems like something that would be driven by the viewer
[12:22] Qie Niangao: could the notecard thing be Inventory API related?
[12:23] Kitto Flora: Maestro never mentioned it? I'd thought Andrew would hear about any physics problems.
[12:23] Vincent Nacon: I don't see how that's related to any form of memories leak...
[12:23] Simon Linden: It definitely could be, Qie -- if it's on this region now, that would point to the new version
[12:23] TankMaster Finesmith: items not opening when recieved has occurend int he past with server updates
[12:24] Simon Linden: yeah, that's on the full grid now
[12:24] Vincent Nacon: you're late, you're only getting one chip, Motor
[12:24] Vincent Nacon: :P
[12:24] Motor Loon: damn
[12:25] Vincent Nacon: you too kelly
[12:26] Simon Linden: I pointed a developer who worked on the inventory code to SVC-7853, fwiw
[12:26] Flip Idlemind: So, pathfinding...I went to one of the pathfinding regions, and made a hollow cube like this. But I was unable to actually stand in the center of it like this. Intentional?
[12:26] Kallista Destiny: ARGHHHHHHH the bling, Puts on sunglasses
[12:26] Flip Idlemind: (I didn't test that extensively either, could have just been a 1 time thing)
[12:27] Simon Linden: Was the region running slow, Flip?
[12:27] Andrew Linden: Kallista, did you make the hollow cube part of the navmesh?
[12:27] Andrew Linden: or was it just a hollow cube?
[12:27] Flip Idlemind: Not that I noticed, but it was really empty except for me and a couple prims I'd rezzed
[12:28] Andrew Linden: er... I meant "Flip"
[12:28] Qie Niangao: (and not Convex Hull physics shape, presumably)
[12:28] Simon Linden: ok- it was a shot in the dark, as it will revert to simpler physics shapes when things get very slow
[12:28] Kallista Destiny: Lols
[12:28] Andrew Linden: That is not expected behavior, so maybe a bug.
[12:28] Andrew Linden: Oh right, some concave shapes might get boxified during very low physics performance.
[12:28] Flip Idlemind: Does "making something part of the navmesh" require being on the pathfinding viewer? Because I wasn't, so probably not
[12:29] Motor Loon: is that something new Simon?
[12:29] Simon Linden: No Motor, that was added a few years ago
[12:29] Andrew Linden: Yes Flip, you have to have some new UI to set an object "walkable" (included in navmesh calculation).
[12:29] Simon Linden: ... sometime around the Havok 4 change
[12:29] Motor Loon: ok, just never noticed that - must under extreme circumstances
[12:30] Andrew Linden: Yes Motor, it kicks in at around 15fps (if I recall correctly).
[12:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[12:30] Motor Loon: ok
[12:30] Andrew Linden: but only if the physics engine is the source of the crippling lag
[12:30] Flip Idlemind: And like I said I didn't test it again, so I could be talking about an issue that's not an issue
[12:30] Flip Idlemind: But good that it's not expected behavior
[12:31] Andrew Linden: Which reminds me... I haven't heard anything about the "temp on rez bullets get stuck on rez" problem in combat regions in a long time.
[12:31] Andrew Linden: So I guess I can assume that it really is fixed?
[12:31] Kallista Destiny: Yes andrew, that is indeed tfixed, and thank you very much
[12:32] Andrew Linden: ok cool
[12:32] Kallista Destiny would kiss andrew but ...
[12:33] Kallista Destiny: We had 30 odd people in Sardar a couple of weeks ago, the region was slow bot not bogged down, and there were no shoals of arrows being released late
[12:33] Simon Linden: great!
[12:33] Qie Niangao: So yesterday, I was riding a keyframed motion "vehicle" into a no-object-entry parcel, and when I stood up, it just disappeared, not returned to Lost&Found. I can't seem to replicate that, but I'm wondering if this just happens sometimes or if it's something to watch (was on a Le Tigre sim, fwiw)
[12:34] Vincent Nacon: just pucker up, will ya?
[12:34] Vincent Nacon: :P
[12:35] Elisha Richez: Qie, if a vehical crosses a sim border of which has "no object entry" turned on it will delete after you stand up.
[12:35] Andrew Linden: Yeah, but shouldn't it get returned to inventory?
[12:35] Simon Linden: Qie - I believe that should have been returned and shown up in Lost and Found. Was it copyable?
[12:35] Qie Niangao: delete, not get returned? really? (this wasn't a sim border, although the motion *started* in another sim)
[12:35] Qie Niangao: yes, it was full perm
[12:35] Elisha Richez: they've been deleting for me too
[12:35] Vincent Nacon: unless it was temp
[12:36] Elisha Richez: but thats in goguen/cordova
[12:36] Andrew Linden: There may be a difference when crossing the border into a no-entry parcel
[12:37] Qie Niangao: ClicK, do you know a jira about it, by any chance?
[12:37] Andrew Linden: however I'd expect it to happen as soon as you cross, rather than wait for you to get off the vehicle.
[12:37] Elisha Richez: i have not checked for one yet :/
[12:37] Simon Linden: Vehicles get some weird bypass of the checks
[12:37] Simon Linden: You can drive them to places you couldn't push a regular object, so then there's a special check as you stand up
[12:38] Qie Niangao: Yes, and *usually* they've gone to my Lost&Found then
[12:38] Vincent Nacon: .... yeah we should work on vehicle API right after pathfinding project.
[12:39] Qie Niangao: Thanks. I'll see if it can replicate in any comprehensible pattern. If so, I'll make a jira.
[12:39] Simon Linden: The behavior rules are unfortunately complex as the restriction is "no entry" as opposed to being on the parcel - stuff that's there when "no entry" is turned on are grandfathered and stay in the parcel
[12:39] Andrew Linden: Falcon might be ready to work on a new vehicle API after pathfinding. I know he wants to do it.
[12:39] Elisha Richez: a friend of mine made a script before that rerezzed his vehical after exiting the vehical once crossed object no entry borderline.
[12:40] Vincent Nacon: what I meant was....
[12:40] Andrew Linden: But he's also been lining up a bunch of other projects. I wonder which one will float to the top.
[12:40] Vincent Nacon: maybe put it on backburner till we get around to it?
[12:40] Vincent Nacon: or ...well hmm
[12:40] TheBlack Box: would be great if problems around vehicles with multiple passengers crossing sim borders would get fixed somewhen .. that is and always has been a major pita
[12:41] Vincent Nacon: aye
[12:41] Rex Cronon: u drop passangers at sim border, and pick them up on the other side
[12:41] Motor Loon nods... I've tried crossing borders with 17 avatars on my sailboat... didn't go too well
[12:41] TheBlack Box: :)
[12:41] Kitto Flora: Whats the problem with multiple riders on one vehicle, crossing border?
[12:42] Rex Cronon: after the crossing u might not be sitting
[12:42] TheBlack Box: usually everyone crashes
[12:42] Elisha Richez: or they get voided
[12:42] Kitto Flora: Ah - thatsjust sim overlaod
[12:42] Simon Linden: well, the basic problem is there is way too much leaving one region and entering the other ... it's like everyone trying to TP in at exactly the same time
[12:42] Rex Cronon: only 2 people in a car shouldn't overload a whole sim
[12:43] Motor Loon: neither should 10
[12:43] Simon Linden: If you look at the drops in frame rate on that performance meeter when someone arrives, just multiply that by the number of riders
[12:43] Simon Linden: ... and add the vehicle too
[12:43] TheBlack Box: it is a tough problem no doubt
[12:43] Kitto Flora: Take of all their script and bling - it works fine :)
[12:43] Elisha Richez: yea simon...lots of load especially if they are all wearing bling like kellz
[12:43] Elisha Richez: :P
[12:44] Motor Loon: Kelly alone can cause a sim to come to a halt
[12:44] Rex Cronon: not really. it needs somebody that is meticulous and pays attention to details:)
[12:44] Simon Linden: Finally there's the problem of re-assembling the vehicle and riders ... if something has gone missing, it doesn't recover well
[12:44] Motor Loon: well, thats the problem aint it... must be a solution for that
[12:44] Simon Linden: The bling isn't bad, except for your eyes. It's scripts that are the worst
[12:45] TheBlack Box: yeah ... a tough problem for sure ... but also would be a great feature if it worked well ...
[12:45] Vincent Nacon: quick... someone ban Black Box
[12:45] Kitto Flora: Av script limts. Where are they?
[12:45] Rex Cronon: can't u say that all passangers will have their scripts turned off?
[12:45] Vincent Nacon: err... I mean Simon
[12:45] Vincent Nacon: misread the name
[12:46] Simon Linden: I think there's new code where you can't ban the landowner
[12:46] Jonathan Yap: scripts that are turned off still have to be moved between regions, having no scripts is much better
[12:46] Vincent Nacon: oh be quiet you
[12:46] Vincent Nacon: :P
[12:46] Vincent Nacon: I'm the dealer here!
[12:47] Rex Cronon: running scripts also need to save state, so if u turn them off it takes less memory and time to transffer them to the next sim
[12:47] Vincent Nacon: wondering how much improvement there can be made with particle
[12:47] Motor Loon: You're a crappy dealer.... I didn't even get any playing cards
[12:48] Kitto Flora: Well - you can script your vehicle to check the script load of an Av when they sit, and unseat them if their load is 'too high'
[12:48] Vincent Nacon: we're playing with invisible cards
[12:48] Vincent Nacon: and you lost
[12:48] Qie Niangao: Kitto: or refuse to cross a sim border until they unload some scripts.
[12:48] Motor Loon: in that case... no, I'm sure I have a royal flush
[12:48] Vincent Nacon takes your one and only chip
[12:48] Simon Linden: I looked into the idea of a special case for scripts that didn't need to save state, and it turns out there wasn't much of an advantage for region crossings or TPs
[12:49] Simon Linden: There's enough overhead in loading and starting up the bytecode that it's not worth it
[12:49] Motor Loon: hm
[12:49] Qie Niangao: now if only we could turn off teleporting for script-heavy agents.
[12:50] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Or ... just bring in those script limits for avatars.
[12:50] Kitto Flora: llSetRegion(SCRIPT_LIMIT, <number>);
[12:50] Kitto Flora: If Av exceeds limit, TP denied
[12:50] Simon Linden: well, you could apply a little social pressure by making something follow script-heavy agents around
[12:50] Rex Cronon: than say: all passangers in a vehicles must take off all scripted attachments, only the driver allowed with attachments
[12:51] Vincent Nacon: yeah, Kitto's got good idea there than Koli
[12:51] Qie Niangao: heh, Simon, I think that's an AR waiting to happen
[12:51] Andrew Linden: An idea which has been mentioned here many times is to pre-load the receiving region with the script data when the crosser gets close to the boundary
[12:51] Jonathan Yap: Pathing objects can follow you around
[12:51] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Simon - the FN sandbox (we only have one now) will actually warn and send people home who are detected to be using up to 12MiB of script memory.
[12:51] Kitto Flora: Simon - we did nagging on Octoberville - it worked somewhat
[12:51] Vincent Nacon: actually, it wouldn't need to be LSL function, just put it in estate control panel
[12:51] Liisa Runo: i want a way to move objects to far away distances in the future. After LL ruin all the old border behavior.
[12:52] TheBlack Box: <- "This person is using way too many scripts and therfor messing up YOUR SL experience."
[12:52] TheBlack Box: :))
[12:52] Andrew Linden: I think one of the LL developers was seriously speculating on how pre-load of crossing data might be done, as part of the region crossing overhaul
[12:52] Simon Linden: It's a tough problem, because then finding and removing the scripts isn't easy. I hate all the resizers I find in clothing
[12:52] Andrew Linden: but I don't know the current state of those plans
[12:52] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: You should look at hair that have scripts in every prim. Oh boy. >_>
[12:52] Simon Linden: We should see the region-crossing RC code back next week, fwiw. In the long run, that'll apply to objects too
[12:53] TankMaster Finesmith: we could use a "remove all scripts" option inthe viewer that would also work on no mod objects
[12:53] Vincent Nacon: err bad idea Tank
[12:53] Av Script Checker 0.5: Vincent Nacon has 0 scripts using 0 uSecs
[12:53] Av Script Checker 0.5: Motor Loon has 12 scripts using 12 uSecs
[12:53] Av Script Checker 0.5: Simon Linden has 53 scripts using 36 uSecs
[12:53] Av Script Checker 0.5: Flip Idlemind has 42 scripts using 534 uSecs
[12:53] Av Script Checker 0.5: Ima Mechanique has 10 scripts using 12 uSecs
[12:53] Av Script Checker 0.5: Yuzuru Jewell has 0 scripts using 0 uSecs
[12:53] Av Script Checker 0.5: Sahkolihaa Contepomi has 5 scripts using 93 uSecs
[12:53] Av Script Checker 0.5: TankMaster Finesmith has 78 scripts using 65 uSecs
[12:53] Av Script Checker 0.5: Kelly Linden has 19 scripts using 56 uSecs
[12:53] Av Script Checker 0.5: Andrew Linden has 0 scripts using 0 uSecs
[12:53] Av Script Checker 0.5: Kallista Destiny has 57 scripts using 64 uSecs
[12:53] Av Script Checker 0.5: Nalates Urriah has 11 scripts using 42 uSecs
[12:53] Av Script Checker 0.5: Jonathan Yap has 12 scripts using 13 uSecs
[12:53] Av Script Checker 0.5: TheBlack Box has 70 scripts using 44 uSecs
[12:53] Av Script Checker 0.5: Chieron Tenk has 57 scripts using 93 uSecs
[12:53] Av Script Checker 0.5: Liisa Runo has 16 scripts using 142 uSecs
[12:53] Chieron Tenk: definitely bad.
[12:53] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: -.-
[12:53] TankMaster Finesmith: then you could remove allt he scripts from those baldy scripted resizes / color changers
[12:53] Rex Cronon: don't forget shoes
[12:54] Kallista Destiny: YES!!!
[12:54] Andrew Linden: Actually, I was thinking that was a good idea -- as long as it removed ALL scripts.
[12:54] Rex Cronon: gee. wall of text passing through?
[12:54] Kitto Flora: Flip is bad
[12:54] Vincent Nacon: as much I would like to favor that idea but it's still abuse-able in some other cases
[12:54] Liisa Runo: i dont take orders from cript checkers
[12:54] Liisa Runo: script*
[12:54] Andrew Linden: Removing selected scripts might be a way to hack certain script systems that expect other scripts to be present.
[12:54] Kallista Destiny: OMG I have probably l$2000 in hair that I canlt use because each and every prim has a scrit
[12:55] Kallista Destiny: It would be all or none
[12:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[12:55] Andrew Linden: but removing ALL of them produces an empty object that can't otherwise be changed (I'm assuming no-mod perms)
[12:55] Qie Niangao: and it's no-mod hair, Kallista?
[12:55] Nalates Urriah: Kalli, are they all no mod?
[12:55] Jonathan Yap: There is already code to stop/start /recompile all scripts within a selection, I suppose it could be modified to delete them too (but I think that might be something of a support nightmare for creators)
[12:55] Kallista Destiny: exactly
[12:55] Kitto Flora: Theres a lot of tarshy producst sold in SL, and alot of dumb customers buying them.
[12:55] Rex Cronon: removing scripts from no-mode objects is not a viable solution. will never be
[12:55] Kallista Destiny: Yes
[12:55] TankMaster Finesmith: i wasnt looking for removering some scripts, jsut all
[12:56] Andrew Linden: really Rex, why is that? What scenarios would break?
[12:56] Kallista Destiny: They are not trashy, qua trashy, just ill scripted
[12:56] Kitto Flora rates that as trashy
[12:56] Kallista Destiny: actually nice hair
[12:56] Chieron Tenk: there is still lacking awareness of how bad memory overuse actually can be.. the old resizers/recolorers are still not dead because of that
[12:56] Qie Niangao rates no-mod as trashy by definition
[12:56] Rex Cronon: there r scripts that have security checks
[12:56] Liisa Runo: just need to put a sign on freshly installed viewer's login screen "never buy anything with nomod prims"
[12:56] TankMaster Finesmith: ive seen some hair with 2 scripts in each prim, one for size and one for color :P
[12:57] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Ah...
[12:57] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Demos for scripts.
[12:57] Simon Linden: right, you can have good objects with too many scripts, like a HUD I use
[12:57] Rex Cronon: like vendors, they pay certain parties
[12:57] Kitto Flora: And they all listen to chat on 0?
[12:57] Kallista Destiny: Mystitool comes to mind
[12:57] Andrew Linden: Hrm... ok so a demo with an llDie() on a timer could be foiled into sticking around.
[12:57] Rex Cronon: if the wrong scripts is removed or turned off some people might not get paied
[12:57] Rex Cronon: paid*
[12:58] Chieron Tenk: andrew, sometimes the permissions are produced to be noperms with an inventory items like a script, removing that would also add a permission, i guess?
[12:58] Qie Niangao: well, if *all* scripts are turned off, it's just bricked. nobody gets paid at all.
[12:58] Rex Cronon: right. demos too
[12:58] Andrew Linden: Rex, but we were talking about removing ALL scripts. So either none or all, but not a partial removal.
[12:58] Andrew Linden: Yes Chieron, however we could bake the pre-removal final perms into the object and then remove the scripts.
[12:59] TheBlack Box: well ... removing all scripts would actually have the same effect as rezzing the thing in a no-script region ...
[12:59] Chieron Tenk: k
[12:59] Rex Cronon: if u remove all scripts u might just as well delete the object
[12:59] Rex Cronon: an vehicle with no scripts would be useless
[12:59] Andrew Linden: But foiling a demo that deletes itself... that is one scenario that would break.
[12:59] Qie Niangao: yes, Rex, that's why people wouldn't do that with such objects.
[12:59] Andrew Linden: That is, a demo that did NOT rely on script behavior.
[12:59] Kallista Destiny: No Rex, yu resize it how you want it, set the color, then remove the scripts
[12:59] Chieron Tenk: we could also leave the scripts be for the time being, but add some flag that prevents loading them (and also makes the object noperm)
[12:59] Motor Loon: Creators just need to learn to put in options to descript their products
[12:59] Kitto Flora: Umm - if you 'unpack' the object then all its scripts end up in your Inv, even if the object is no-mod.
[13:00] Kallista Destiny: good devices have the remove option,
[13:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[13:00] Rex Cronon: kallista. how r u going to drive a no-mode vehicle with no scripts in it:)
[13:00] Simon Linden: It doesn't sound good to me to allow modifications on a no-mod object ... it just seems like a bad can of worms
[13:00] Motor Loon: agree Simon
[13:00] Kitto Flora: Simon - you can so mod a no-mod object
[13:00] Qie Niangao: right: I think we're trying to save old stuff that is now crap because we don't script that way anymore. It may be pretty, but it's still crap.
[13:01] Simon Linden: It's pretty crap
[13:01] Liisa Runo: it is bad can of worms, just need to get more clever creators and consumers
[13:01] Kallista Destiny: There are very lovely hair/clothing/shoes that canlt be used becasue of having excessive scripts
[13:01] Motor Loon: Kinda like old cars in RL eh.... they often pollute more....
[13:01] Vincent Nacon: let's not worry about the "removing script" as scripter should have wrote in an option to kill its own script
[13:02] Jonathan Yap: Thank you everyone
[13:02] Kallista Destiny: I refuse to wear 500+ scripts becasue the maker is not cleaver/competent . and guss what you canlt count the scripts until you've bought it.
[13:02] Andrew Linden: I guess another scenario that might upset some content creators is that the "scriptless" object still shows up created by them, so it is a way for the object owner to deviate from the intended "experience" of the content
[13:03] Andrew Linden: that is, the creator loses some control over how their content is used/preceived
[13:03] Kallista Destiny: anyway thank All for a very interesting meeting.
[13:03] Kitto Flora: LL should apply a script-tax to objects?
[13:03] Andrew Linden: mmmm... taxes
[13:03] Rex Cronon: tc all those leaving
[13:03] Qie Niangao: hehehe
[13:03] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Oh boy, I can just hear the screams for that.
[13:03] TankMaster Finesmith: script equevelnt cost :P
[13:03] Kallista Destiny draws her dagger and goes hunting for Koli
[13:03] Rex Cronon: i think long ago a tax was put in place and small revolution started:)
[13:04] TheBlack Box: script-costs have been on the table and shelved again if i remember corrently
[13:04] Kitto Flora: sky-box tax?
[13:04] Andrew Linden: I can foresee the motto of the mob: "Born Free but Taxed to Death"
[13:04] Qie Niangao: You're good at this motto thing, Andrew. :p
[13:04] TankMaster Finesmith: thx for your time, guys
[13:04] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: See you Simon & Andrew.
[13:04] Andrew Linden: thanks for coming everyone
[13:05] Ima Mechanique: thanks for having us :-)
[13:05] Chieron Tenk: tc everyone
[13:05] Kallista Destiny: You think that Adult content opened a can of worms?
[13:05] TheBlack Box: thanks for the office hour and all ! cu around
[13:05] Qie Niangao: Thanks Lindens, all. Have fun!
[13:05] Simon Linden: Bye everyone - thanks for the good conversation
[13:05] Vincent Nacon: naa the can has been opened long before anyway
[13:05] Nalates Urriah: thx
[13:05] Kallista Destiny: lol script taxes.... OMG *looks for a red flag
[13:05] Vincent Nacon: they just served it on pretty plate for them
[13:05] Yuzuru Jewell: See yo
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