Mesh/Archive/2012-12-10

==Agenda==
#Please have a look at a couple of cylinders with unaccountably different physics weights (http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/Triangle-physics-things-you-may-not-want-to-know/td-p/1761265).Drongle McMahon
# Why was https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SH-3055 closed as fixed, when it's not fixed? The patch is still not in any Beta or Release viewer. Darien Caldwell 10:24, 10 December 2012 (PST)
# Updates on Server side baking? TankMaster Finesmith
# If I remember correctly, the reason TPVs couldn't use the decomposition tools was because they were part of Havok. Why then weren't they made available to TPV developers as part of the sublicensed code that came with pathfinding?Tiberious Neruda
# In the future, could script limits be imposed on meetings which are significantly larger than usual, wherein added scripts threaten region performance/progress of said meeting? Aki Shichiroji 12:49, 10 December 2012 (PST)
#ADD designers to some projects to have a better feedback and suggestions, since desigenrs know what people need in terms of mesh and addons Ramses Meredith 01:05, 10 December 2012 (PST)
==Meeting Notes==
==Attendees List==
*-Countdown- (antoniaxp) (-countdown-.(antoniaxp))
*Aki Shichiroji (aki.shichiroji)
*Asha (ashasekayi.ra)
*Mrs. Capalini (ava.jhamin)
*ßєℓℓα (belladonna.wexhome)
*Bonadea Cobalt (bonadea.avedon)
*BonieFacio (boniefacio)
*Chris Kayor (chris.kayor)
*Dagon Harrison (dagon.harrison)
*Darien Caldwell (darien.caldwell)
*Design Engineer (design.engineer)
*Desireme Fallen (desireme.fallen)
*Drongle McMahon (drongle.mcmahon)
*Fatality (fatalityx) (fatality.(fatalityx))
*Frolic Mills (frolic.mills)
*Gamp Lane (gamp.lane)
*Exotix (inara.pey)
*Isoldel (isoldel)
*Kim Rongyu (kim.rongyu)
*LiLi Ivanova-Palmer (lili.ivanova)
*link (link)
*Ludwig Prinz (ludwig.prinz)
*Martin RJ (martinrj.fayray)
*Mazukaxana (mazukaxana)
*McLoven Iwish (mcloven.iwish)
*Melusina Parkin (melusina.parkin)
*Merrick Genesis (merrick.genesis)
*Mimi Juneau (mimi.juneau)
*Monica Balut (monica.balut)
*Nal (nalates.urriah)
*Nyx Linden (nyx.linden)
*Prep Linden (prep.linden)
*Qie Niangao (qie.niangao)
*Ramona Criss (ramona.criss)
*Ramses Meredith (ramses.meredith)
*ratclonerloveyouLL (ratclonerloveyoull)
*Roiben D'Angelo (roiben.sweetwater)
*Second Life (second.life)
*Steele Sirnah Undercroft (steele.sirnah)
*Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)
*Tiberious Neruda (tiberious.neruda)
*Bazz Fazz (vir.linden)
*World Undercroft Sirnah (world.undercroft)
*Xandrah Sciavo (xandrah.sciavo)
*Yessenia2013 (yessenia2013)
*Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)
==Transcript for Monday December 10, 2012==
[12:03]	Nyx Linden 	Greetings everyone
[12:03]	Exotix (inara.pey) 	Hey, Nyx, Prep
[12:03]	Steele Sirnah Undercroft (steele.sirnah) 	Hello
[12:03]	Prep Linden 	yo folks!
[12:03]	Bonadea Cobalt (bonadea.avedon) 	㋡ ☆*¨¨*:•.•:*¨* hallo hello hi holla *¨¨*:•.•:*¨*☆ ㋡
[12:03]	World Undercroft Sirnah (world.undercroft) 	Hello Nyx
[12:03]	Aki Shichiroji 	Hi Prep
[12:03]	Nyx Linden 	agenda is here, please add your topics to the wiki: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group
[12:03]	Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	man, big croud
[12:03]	Martin RJ (martinrj.fayray) 	Hello Mr. LlNyx! : )
[12:04]	Mazukaxana 	hello everyone
[12:05]	LiLi Ivanova-Palmer (lili.ivanova) 	hello Everyone ㋡
[12:05]	Nyx Linden 	Shall we get started?
[12:05]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Hiya Lili.
[12:06]	Mazukaxana 	oops lag sorry kim
[12:06]	Kim Rongyu 	aww no worries :)
[12:06]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	sure
[12:06]	Nyx Linden 	first topic: "Please have a look at a couple of cylinders with unaccountably different physics weights (http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/Triangle-physics-things-you-may-not-want-to-know/td-p/1761265).Drongle McMahon"
[12:06]	Mazukaxana 	hi mimi
[12:06]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	really bad chat lag
[12:07]	Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	really bad region lag to
[12:08]	Darien Caldwell 	did it crash?
[12:09]	Mimi Juneau 	there 's a Vir dropping in ㋡
[12:09]	Mazukaxana 	not yet darien
[12:09]	Desireme Fallen (desireme.fallen) 	is there talking going on...dont see anything
[12:09]	Isoldel 	Ever so slowly
[12:09]	ßєℓℓα (belladonna.wexhome) 	i don't see anthing
[12:09]	Bazz Fazz (vir.linden) 	trying to
[12:09]	ßєℓℓα (belladonna.wexhome) 	and i know people are trying to get in
[12:09]	Qie Niangao 	It's trying to crash. Same thing happend (twice) at Saturday's Bay City tree lighting.
[12:09]	Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	UGs are not in voice, text only
[12:10]	Nyx Linden 	apologies, appears to be pretty poor server FPS at the moment
[12:10]	Bonadea Cobalt (bonadea.avedon) 	/me pokes darien
[12:10]	World Undercroft Sirnah (world.undercroft) 	we still have a lot more coming
[12:10]	Isoldel 	Chat seems to be catching up though.
[12:10]	ßєℓℓα (belladonna.wexhome) 	lol
[12:10]	Darien Caldwell 	unusually large # of ppl here for some reason.
[12:10]	ßєℓℓα (belladonna.wexhome) 	well hello xandrah
[12:10]	Aki Shichiroji 	gee, i wonder why.
[12:10]	Mimi Juneau 	well we all have big concerns ㋡
[12:10]	Aki Shichiroji 	heh.
[12:10]	World Undercroft Sirnah (world.undercroft) 	yes waiting for q and a time
[12:11]	Darien Caldwell 	about what
[12:11]	ßєℓℓα (belladonna.wexhome) 	very big concerns
[12:11]	World Undercroft Sirnah (world.undercroft) 	unless you wish us to cover it now
[12:11]	ßєℓℓα (belladonna.wexhome) 	yes
[12:11]	Isoldel 	Indeed.
[12:11]	Mimi Juneau 	not the weather in SL ㋡
[12:11]	ßєℓℓα (belladonna.wexhome) 	AVAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
[12:11]	Nyx Linden 	please make sure you add your topics on the wiki page and we'll get to them in order: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group
[12:11]	Darien Caldwell 	there's nothing to be concerned about, this is SL
[12:11]	LiLi Ivanova-Palmer (lili.ivanova) 	hello Melu
[12:11]	Nyx Linden 	ok looks like chat is recovering, let's continue
[12:11]	Melusina Parkin 	hello eveyone!
[12:12]	Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	ok!
[12:12]	Melusina Parkin 	hi Mimi
[12:12]	Mimi Juneau 	Melu ㋡
[12:12]	ßєℓℓα (belladonna.wexhome) 	MIMI!!!!!!!!
[12:12]	Desireme Fallen (desireme.fallen) 	Hello Melusina
[12:12]	Melusina Parkin 	Hi lili, Desi :)
[12:12]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Is it OK?
[12:12]	Mimi Juneau 	hi Prep
[12:12]	ßєℓℓα (belladonna.wexhome) 	Heya Gamp!!
[12:12]	Nyx Linden 	drongle has the first topic, uploaded meshes with significantly different physics costs: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/Triangle-physics-things-you-may-not-want-to-know/td-p/1761265
[12:12]	Drongle McMahon 	Testing 1234
[12:12]	Desireme Fallen (desireme.fallen) 	hey Gamp
[12:13]	Desireme Fallen (desireme.fallen) 	hello Isoldel...i can see now...lool
[12:13]	Isoldel 	Lol
[12:13]	Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	please keep the idle chat separate in IM
[12:13]	Melusina Parkin 	hi Bety!
[12:13]	Nyx Linden 	Drongle: I'm going to have to run this by our physics experts, but could you clarify what the specific differences are between the three models you posted?
[12:17]	Nyx Linden 	just a re-ordering/orienting of the triangles?
[12:17]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Could we move to http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Grasmere/112/88/33
[12:19]	Nyx Linden 	I'll support that. anyone have a large boat? :D
[12:20]	Nyx Linden 	meet everyone to the North of the sim border.
[12:21]	Merrick Genesis 	SLURL again?
[12:21]	Second Life 	Teleport completed from http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Borrowdale/79/210/32
[12:24]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Better
[12:25]	Drongle McMahon 	Ah. Lovely plywood.
[12:25]	World Undercroft Sirnah (world.undercroft) 	ty
[12:26]	Isoldel 	yw
[12:26]	Nyx Linden 	can't beat a classic :)
[12:26]	Roiben D'Angelo (roiben.sweetwater) 	Am i ok down here or would you like me to move along ? Im just trying to load inventory . ;)
[12:27]	Ramses Meredith 	hi all!
[12:27]	Ramses Meredith 	tnx for the tp
[12:27]	Mazukaxana 	Ramses :D
[12:27]	World Undercroft Sirnah (world.undercroft) 	welcome
[12:27]	Martin RJ (martinrj.fayray) 	oops, sorry for stepping on you, Nyx
[12:27]	Nyx Linden 	its a public meeting Roiben, just relocating due to lag on Borrowdale. Feel free to stick around if you like, though this region may get a bit busy
[12:27]	Roiben D'Angelo (roiben.sweetwater) 	kk ty
[12:27]	Ramses Meredith 	it is about ramonzita right?
[12:27]	World Undercroft Sirnah (world.undercroft) 	during q and a
[12:28]	ßєℓℓα (belladonna.wexhome) 	ramses!!
[12:28]	Ramses Meredith 	smiles: hello
[12:28]	Merrick Genesis 	hey Ramses
[12:28]	Ludwig Prinz 	hello all
[12:28]	Nyx Linden 	ok hopefully we're getting a bit of a quorum. Drongle, want to tell us about your meshes?
[12:29]	Mazukaxana 	lol
[12:29]	ßєℓℓα (belladonna.wexhome) 	this is silk, not supposed to get wet
[12:29]	Nyx Linden 	surprise underwater meeting
[12:29]	Ramses Meredith 	laughs
[12:29]	Mazukaxana 	xD
[12:29]	Nyx Linden 	now where's that fish avatar when I need it
[12:29]	Ramses Meredith 	Nyx just a quickly question: do u accept external help from RL companies regard ramonzita issue?
[12:30]	Merrick Genesis 	we're not in Q&A yet, Ramses. Meeting has been unable to start.
[12:30]	Mazukaxana 	why dont ban ip of this girl , or men...
[12:30]	Mazukaxana 	its a real problem for many people
[12:30]	Tiberious Neruda 	eep?
[12:30]	Ramses Meredith 	I am sure he/she is able to answer
[12:31]	Nyx Linden 	ok, I don't see drongle here, will follow up on the physics issue with him if he is unable to get back
[12:32]	Aki Shichiroji 	it seems there may still be some people in Borrowdale?
[12:32]	Nyx Linden 	second topic: "Why was https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SH-3055 closed as fixed, when it's not fixed? The patch is still not in any Beta or Release viewer. Darien Caldwell 10:24, 10 December 2012 (PST)"
[12:32]	Mazukaxana 	wb ludi
[12:33]	Ludwig Prinz 	thank you
[12:33]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	I can't see anything..
[12:34]	BonieFacio 	does everyone have oxygen ?
[12:34]	Ramses Meredith 	if not we will ask to linden labs some
[12:34]	Ramses Meredith 	LOL
[12:34]	BonieFacio 	hi there ramses :)
[12:34]	Bazz Fazz (vir.linden) 	Generally things are marked as fixed when the fix goes into an internal repo
[12:35]	Drongle McMahon 	Crashed again
[12:35]	Mrs. Capalini (ava.jhamin) 	do you realize that thius water is doing to this silk top
[12:35]	Nyx Linden 	I looked into this bug as its been a high priority for a number of people
[12:36]	Aki Shichiroji 	i'll go dig it up
[12:36]	Aki Shichiroji 	Runitai posted a link to a build in Mesh Dev earlier this morning
[12:36]	Nyx Linden 	right. The fix appears to work for some people
[12:36]	Nyx Linden 	its part of a branch that has not merged to beta yet
[12:37]	Nyx Linden 	the JIRA is in the state it is in because this particular bug was marked as verified by QA
[12:37]	Ramses Meredith 	ah well it happend when u move from few people to huge communities, suddenly you find issues hehe
[12:37]	Tiberious Neruda 	topic added
[12:38]	ratclonerloveyouLL 	Dell computer not mac :( also Griefers and real villian kill my Sony computer cpu :(
[12:38]	Nyx Linden 	since other fixes in that branch failed QA, it is not ready to merge to beta yet.
[12:39]	Aki Shichiroji 	i don't think the OP made the jump over here.
[12:39]	Ramses Meredith 	Nyx, we al understand that it is a research to enhance our second life, so we don't complain alot about our common interess is to give the best performances to customers
[12:40]	Nyx Linden 	I know, but I'm going to be sending him a link to the transcript and will follow up with him if he has any questions.
[12:40]	Nyx Linden 	If there are no other questions about this from anyone else we can move to the next topic.
[12:40]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Which build is hte fix in?
[12:41]	Aki Shichiroji 	Nal: http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/simon-ll-viewer-cat/rev/266471/index.html
[12:41]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Thx
[12:41]	Nyx Linden 	please test out that build and let me know if that fixes the issue for you.
[12:42]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	What fix is that build for?
[12:42]	Aki Shichiroji 	(???) failed to upload, see log file for details - SH 3055
[12:42]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Ahh ok. Thanks, Aki.
[12:43]	Chris Kayor 	well now that the grids thieves have all their enemies on one place
[12:44]	Nyx Linden 	ok moving on to the next topic: "Updates on Server side baking? TankMaster Finesmith"
[12:45]	Ramses Meredith 	ah this is interessing topic
[12:45]	Nyx Linden 	I'll post a topic at this meeting and email the os-dev list when we are ready to announce anything
[12:45]	Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	what topic are we on?
[12:47]	Nyx Linden 	expect something soon, though, we're making good progress. I hope to be able to give more detail next week if things go well
[12:48]	Nyx Linden 	we're on server side texture baking tankmaster, but chat is having issues.
[12:49]	Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	ah, thats mine! :P and yeah, to many people for the regio still is seems
[12:49]	Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	maybe we'd have better luck in irc :D
[12:50]	Ramses Meredith 	too much lag to be some people in a empty sim lol
[12:51]	Aki Shichiroji 	well, we wouldn't have resizer scripts to deal with...
[12:51]	Ramses Meredith 	yes but this is a problem due the 10mb limit for sims
[12:51]	Tiberious Neruda 	wait... is mesh bogging the sim down?
[12:52]	Nyx Linden 	some script time issues, some physics issues
[12:52]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "If I remember correctly, the reason TPVs couldn't use the decomposition tools was because they were part of Havok. Why then weren't they made available to TPV developers as part of the sublicensed code that came with pathfinding?Tiberious Neruda"
[12:53]	Ramses Meredith 	nyx sorry to bother but we all want udnerstand, there is a list of topics we have to respect?
[12:53]	Nyx Linden 	This is a TPV & Licensing issue, I think Oz would be best suited to answer this one
[12:53]	Nyx Linden 	the agenda is here Ramses: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group add topics to the end of the list please
[12:54]	Nyx Linden 	(anyone can add a topic)
[12:54]	Ramses Meredith 	tnx
[12:54]	Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	Most major TPVs based on V3 have havoc lib now
[12:54]	Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	exodus and firestorm do, Im not sure on what there viewers do
[12:54]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	I think they were... the Firestorm blog said something about that in their viewer.
[12:54]	Tiberious Neruda 	agreed... but I find it frustrating to have to switch to the LL client just to upload a mesh with any kind of decomposed physics shape
[12:55]	Ramses Meredith 	question about it nyx: if we want to collaborate as designers, do u accept join ventures or not?
[12:55]	Nyx Linden 	I can ask around internally, to figure out exactly what they got, and what the issues are.
[12:55]	Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	the latest firestorm uses the same hacok for upload
[12:55]	Design Engineer 	Exodus now has the Havok Lib, it's the first I know that does.
[12:55]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Chat lag make it hard to make sense... I think the current Havok library has Decomp and PF in the same library.
[12:56]	link 	Anika, im yours 4ever, Bonie
[12:56]	Nyx Linden 	that is my impression as well Nal (that decomp and pf are in the same bundle), but I will ask around to verify. Oz would know the latest status of that better than I.
[12:57]	Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	Oz's next UG is wed @ 3PM
[12:57]	Prep Linden 	the physicsextensions library contain both decomp and pathfinding.
[12:57]	Ramses Meredith 	i mean nyx: you as linden labs do nothing about appareance, who care about it are designers, do u have a program that include designers in this or willing to be?
[12:57]	Prep Linden 	libraries.
[12:57]	Tiberious Neruda 	o.o
[12:57]	Nyx Linden 	sounds like an interesting topic Ramses, please add any suggestions in that realm to the agenda
[12:58]	Ramses Meredith 	sure
[12:58]	Nyx Linden 	Tiberious, I believe they should have both. I will look into it to see if there were any issues with integration.
[12:58]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "In the future, could script limits be imposed on meetings which are significantly larger than usual, wherein added scripts threaten region performance/progress of said meeting? Aki Shichiroji 12:49, 10 December 2012 (PST)"
[12:59]	Design Engineer 	Scritps wasn't the issue today. The Statistics was showing very large Net Time as the lag factor.
[12:59]	Nyx Linden 	net time and also physics time were the big ones today
[12:59]	Design Engineer 	Either someone was griefing, or too many people had their draw distance set to 1024
[12:59]	Drongle McMahon 	What uses net time?
[13:00]	Design Engineer 	(which shouldn't even be possible to begin with)
[13:00]	Monica Balut 	The net time problem seems to be at the heart of this sudden massive lag we have been plagued with all over
[13:00]	Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	1024 is the max selectable in most TPVs
[13:00]	Aki Shichiroji 	somehow it wouldn't surprise me if many of the people here have their draw distance cranked. :X
[13:00]	Monica Balut 	We are at the point of having it be almost impossible to have any significant events
[13:01]	Merrick Genesis 	mine is 96
[13:01]	Design Engineer 	yes, but there's no reason anyone needs to see 32 sims aroudn them
[13:01]	Desireme Fallen (desireme.fallen) 	mine is at 264
[13:01]	Dagon Harrison 	i have mine at 32
[13:01]	Kim Rongyu 	64 here
[13:01]	Fatality (fatalityx) 	64
[13:01]	Isoldel 	32
[13:01]	Mimi Juneau 	120
[13:01]	Martin RJ (martinrj.fayray) 	-1
[13:01]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	128
[13:01]	Nyx Linden 	I will look into and ask about alternate venues, and any limitations we could impose to ease large meetings.
[13:01]	Aki Shichiroji 	Nyx: that would be helpful. THere are a few stages that span several sims, aren't there?
[13:02]	Monica Balut 	This sudden massive lag problem is something new since late spring
[13:02]	Aki Shichiroji 	pooley is kinda bad for that now, since it's also a landing point for newbies... but even Brampton, without a sim edge, was never terrible.
[13:02]	Mrs. Capalini (ava.jhamin) 	nods at monica
[13:02]	Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	I know andrew is working on making TPs work better, and for things to rezz quicker
[13:03]	World Undercroft Sirnah (world.undercroft) 	usually there is graphics crashers rezzed around brampton
[13:03]	World Undercroft Sirnah (world.undercroft) 	same for oak grove
[13:03]	Steele Sirnah Undercroft (steele.sirnah) 	yeah can't really go there anymore without that
[13:03]	Nyx Linden 	I'll see what I can do. If people can use simple avatars and few physics/scripts when they see a meeting is large, it would be appreciated.
[13:03]	Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	simulator stuff is best addressed at tomorrow's UG at noon, on denby
[13:03]	Aki Shichiroji 	Nyx: Thanks.
[13:03]	World Undercroft Sirnah (world.undercroft) 	yes sir
[13:03]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Some of think this lag is from Toysholdirs problem: http://blog.nalates.net/2012/10/14/sudden-massive-lag-update/
[13:04]	Design Engineer 	Did we get an answer to Darien's question, I seemed to have missed that one.
[13:05]	Aki Shichiroji 	yes there was an answer. i believe the change was linked by Runitai but some other stuff hadn't made it to a commit at the time.
[13:06]	Design Engineer 	ok, I know it seemed like it was pronounced fixed, but never materialized
[13:06]	Aki Shichiroji 	Design: The relevant link from Runitai: http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/simon-ll-viewer-cat/rev/266471/index.html
[13:06]	ratclonerloveyouLL 	I remove ipod and skates because script base and problemly users AO's and AniHuds are script base aswell
[13:08]	Yessenia2013 	hey peoplez
[13:08]	Yessenia2013 	hey peoplez
[13:08]	Mimi Juneau 	Yess ㋡
[13:08]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "ADD designers to some projects to have a better feedback and suggestions, since desigenrs know what people need in terms of mesh and addons Ramses Meredith 01:05, 10 December 2012 (PST)"
[13:08]	Mimi Juneau 	good idea
[13:08]	Monica Balut 	There ... it just happened again. Time dilation dropped to 0.03 with net times in the 100's
[13:09]	McLoven Iwish 	holy &!&^ its laggy :D
[13:09]	Ramses Meredith 	nyx i thin ku need to collaborate with some brands to have some feedbacks from they customer supports
[13:09]	Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	thers a UG for that type of stuff, its tomorrow at 15:00 on hippotroplis
[13:09]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: ADD designers to some projects to have a better feedback and suggestions, since desigenrs know what people need in terms of mesh and addons Ramses Meredith 01:05, 10 December 2012 (PST)
[13:10]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Those are the type of number skew Toysoldier and event managers have been complaining about for weeks.
[13:10]	McLoven Iwish 	wow 3 linden in one place... thats new :P
[13:10]	Nyx Linden 	ok, Ramses, did you have any particular method or forum in mind for collaborating?
[13:10]	Ramses Meredith 	we want also to improve our skills and indeed a collaboration is the best birth for new projects
[13:10]	Ramses Meredith 	2 are ready to kill u mcloven
[13:10]	Ramses Meredith 	yes i have nyx
[13:11]	Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	the server UG usually has 5-7 lindens
[13:11]	McLoven Iwish 	only 2?
[13:11]	Ramses Meredith 	if u can track a list of desigenrs and have a face to face meetings every week u can have some feedbacks
[13:11]	Tiberious Neruda 	bones... we need extra bones on the skeleton... fingers and tail for starters
[13:11]	McLoven Iwish 	agreed.
[13:11]	Tiberious Neruda 	and let us animate past mAnkle on the leg chain, please
[13:12]	Ramses Meredith 	examples: we have a customer support 24/7 that can gives u feedbacks about problems about mesh, then u can filter them to see which are related to the server and which not we will try, on our side, to try to filter them with your help
[13:12]	Ramses Meredith 	and plus about the tayloring projects, many are doing "works" that seem to copy just your first one so we need guidelines also to avoid cheaters
[13:12]	Tiberious Neruda 	we've got mFoot and even mToe available to rig to... why shouldn't we be able to access those for animation without resorting to trickery?
[13:12]	Nyx Linden 	Ramses, I'd encourage any designers to attend this meeting and give feedback on how we are doing. We try to float up such topics here on a regular basis, and its good to know which filed bug reports are really affecting content creators.
[13:13]	Ramses Meredith 	meetings are nice, but i talk for me as rl company, a meeting is not enoguh we need a referent
[13:13]	Ramses Meredith 	this is a broadcasting news, we need to talk and see errors talk about possible issues and collaborate about it
[13:13]	Aki Shichiroji 	many of us are just as invested, RL, as you are, Ramses
[13:13]	Ramses Meredith 	egoisme is an rl company
[13:14]	Ramses Meredith 	we have our lab too
[13:14]	Ramses Meredith 	but need a diferent standard of communications
[13:14]	Aki Shichiroji 	Perhaps appearing at regular meetings would give you an opportunity to discuss your concerns more often.
[13:14]	Aki Shichiroji 	well, i happen to run a RL company too.
[13:14]	Aki Shichiroji 	many of us here do.
[13:14]	Mimi Juneau 	ok Aki
[13:14]	Mrs. Capalini (ava.jhamin) 	A liason between LL and designers someone that can see issues and then actually help to resolve
[13:14]	Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	at one point Oz was willing to do 15 minute one on ones with residents, but I don't think nayone every took him up on that
[13:14]	Ramses Meredith 	eys so u know when u have 2 companies working on same projects u cannot have one giving just topics and the other listening, need to collaborare more time and together
[13:14]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Many people in SL have RL companies. They can't give us all one-on-one time.
[13:14]	Aki Shichiroji 	Isn't it a bit short-sighted to demand special treatment?
[13:15]	Ramses Meredith 	if i find an issue i need to inform and also others
[13:15]	Chris Kayor 	as for that , how many even knew about the opportunity for one on ones?
[13:15]	Ramses Meredith 	aki if u want a ferrari u need to work in a way,if u want a ford u work in another way
[13:15]	Ramses Meredith 	which one u want
[13:15]	Aki Shichiroji 	well, you keep trying for what you want. Good luck with that ;)
[13:15]	Mimi Juneau 	do you see how many designers leave SL these days?
[13:15]	Mrs. Capalini (ava.jhamin) 	Not asking for that this is one of the if not biggest industries in sl issues need to be addressed
[13:16]	Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	it was announced after they killed off the scrumm meetings
[13:16]	Ramona Criss 	Hello all
[13:16]	Nyx Linden 	I'm more than happy to work with designers who have specific concerns or need to give feedback, we have a number of channels for this. this meeting is a good place to collaborate in real-time, but we have a variety of ways to give feedback throughout the week as well
[13:17]	Ramses Meredith 	we have keep many designers online and help them and we have reinvest in sl 150kx year usd forom our side so iyes we kike to have a 2 channel way to communicate
[13:17]	-Countdown- (antoniaxp) 	xoxo Ramona
[13:17]	Ramses Meredith 	like*
[13:17]	Fatality (fatalityx) 	ya know, I'm not really concerned about anyone's rl companies and such. I'm concerned about my business in sl right now. And as I wasn't aware that we needed to add topics prior to the meeting, my concern is HOW do we, as designers, protect ourselves against the likes of Ramonzita, who is going around copybotting businesses and getting away with it.
[13:17]	Ramses Meredith 	nyx we are willing to help but we need to know how and when
[13:18]	Ramses Meredith 	and canot be a weekly meeting with topic to fill , is like when u talk with the tax man lol
[13:18]	Mrs. Capalini (ava.jhamin) 	finally ty fatality
[13:18]	Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	coppybotting has been an issue for SL sense it began
[13:18]	Tiberious Neruda 	umm... no
[13:18]	Merrick Genesis 	what about extortion?
[13:18]	Ramses Meredith 	that is a big issue due the second life nature - xml codes
[13:18]	Mrs. Capalini (ava.jhamin) 	yes but have reported this one to fbi it beyond just copybotting
[13:18]	Desireme Fallen (desireme.fallen) 	and hacking
[13:18]	Fatality (fatalityx) 	yes well this is growing larger and larger Phoenix. This one particular person and her team are extorting business owners
[13:18]	Tiberious Neruda 	I was around when copybot first hit the grid in any kind of manner
[13:18]	Fatality (fatalityx) 	We're screwed
[13:18]	Nyx Linden 	Fatality - I annouce at the beginning of each meeting what the agenda link is and ask everyone to add topics to the end of the list as we go along
[13:18]	Ramses Meredith 	from our side linden labs have EVEN colòlaborate in fast times
[13:18]	Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	if the viewer can view it, it can copy it technically
[13:19]	Mrs. Capalini (ava.jhamin) 	and nothing being done
[13:19]	Fatality (fatalityx) 	And I wanna know how to defend myself
[13:19]	Merrick Genesis 	hi Frolic
[13:19]	Fatality (fatalityx) 	Frolito <3
[13:19]	Frolic Mills 	hello :)
[13:19]	Kim Rongyu 	hey Frolic :)
[13:19]	Ramses Meredith 	hello frolic
[13:19]	Xandrah Sciavo 	may we add that, then, please, Nyx?
[13:19]	Steele Sirnah Undercroft (steele.sirnah) 	Hello Frolic
[13:19]	Xandrah Sciavo 	hi Frolic
[13:19]	Design Engineer 	SL shapes aren't copyright-able
[13:19]	World Undercroft Sirnah (world.undercroft) 	maybe a new linden meeting can be arranged to deal with our issues in specific
[13:20]	Ramses Meredith 	so which solution do u have about to collaborate with designers, nyx?
[13:20]	World Undercroft Sirnah (world.undercroft) 	but set the sim limit to 100
[13:20]	Nyx Linden 	anyone can add topics, just edit the wiki page here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group We are running over time now though keep in mind
[13:20]	Isoldel 	Nyx, if the topic cannot be discussed now then when? Where? And what time? Because it needs to be done. Not next month, now.
[13:20]	Desireme Fallen (desireme.fallen) 	and the fear of coming here now...which means eventually death to second life
[13:20]	Ramses Meredith 	isodel u can add the topic to the wiki page :)
[13:21]	Second Life 	fatb0yslims (fatb0yslims) is now known as SLMC HAMMER CREW.
[13:21]	World Undercroft Sirnah (world.undercroft) 	iso just file an ar its what i am told to do for 4 months
[13:21]	Nyx Linden 	The best way to help us combat content theft is to file abuse reports with specific evidence of the infringement
[13:21]	Merrick Genesis 	extortion isn't rl legal, yet LL is still allowing someone who has extorted on a regular basis since April to exist. This person drives away the customers of these fine creators. The fact that it's RL illegal means that LL has liability to get rid of the person. Yet the person remains.
[13:21]	World Undercroft Sirnah (world.undercroft) 	see
[13:21]	Mimi Juneau 	we fill all 5 or 6 every day !!!
[13:21]	Steele Sirnah Undercroft (steele.sirnah) 	abuse reports do nothing
[13:21]	Xandrah Sciavo 	we have been reporting this hundreds of times, as a community
[13:21]	Steele Sirnah Undercroft (steele.sirnah) 	there are over 100 ar's against one avatar
[13:21]	Ramses Meredith 	depend how mimi if u do wrong ones they cannot continue
[13:21]	Merrick Genesis 	on her logs, the extortion is evidenced.
[13:21]	Fatality (fatalityx) 	In the mean time, how do we protect ourselves?
[13:21]	Fatality (fatalityx) 	While you're deciding whether it's legit or not.
[13:21]	Desireme Fallen (desireme.fallen) 	and you never hear the outcome
[13:21]	Fatality (fatalityx) 	I mean, we know it is.
[13:22]	Isoldel 	I have filed my reports exactly to the letter.
[13:22]	ratclonerloveyouLL 	Copybotting only for Spoof clients programs others Dev Clients would be hurt & lockout is they AR their owned client base for Copybotting :(
[13:22]	McLoven Iwish 	abuse reports do work ill have you know :D
[13:22]	Ramses Meredith 	need to be very clean and fllow the rtules, how they can know is not a fight between ex or a true issue
[13:22]	Fatality (fatalityx) 	but how do we as designers defend ourselves
[13:22]	Design Engineer 	you file a DMCA
[13:22]	Nyx Linden 	I will be letting the support team know that so many people came out about this specific individual, in addition, but this is not the correct forum for such reports, nor am I trained to hunt down people who steal content
[13:22]	Fatality (fatalityx) 	And when t hat isn't heard
[13:22]	Fatality (fatalityx) 	then what
[13:22]	Design Engineer 	and follow through with it
[13:22]	Ramses Meredith 	as company we filled a DMCA and Linden Labs have answer us in few days deleting the problem
[13:22]	Mrs. Capalini (ava.jhamin) 	The amount of people here tells you it's legit and could have 500 people here
[13:22]	Steele Sirnah Undercroft (steele.sirnah) 	we could have 1000
[13:23]	Mimi Juneau 	that' s the prob there is no forum to hear us !!!
[13:23]	Mrs. Capalini (ava.jhamin) 	so set up a meeting to adress these issues please and thank you.
[13:23]	Fatality (fatalityx) 	There is a community full of designers, a community full of residents who have paid in good, hard earned money and aren't being heard through their dmca's and ar's. So give me a better way to protect myself
[13:23]	Isoldel 	Exactly Nyx, we need to know who to turn to to discuss this. Bring the appropriate people inworld for a meeting specifically for that.
[13:23]	Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	I don't think you have the official capacity to ban people over copybotting either, nyx
[13:23]	Design Engineer 	you don't speak for all designers though
[13:23]	Design Engineer 	you only speak for you.
[13:23]	Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	I could be wrong though
[13:23]	Merrick Genesis 	shall we get more designers?
[13:23]	Mrs. Capalini (ava.jhamin) 	I have spoken to the FBI she has stolen complete accounts that is a federal crime
[13:24]	Design Engineer 	if you can't understand how to file a DMCA, I feel bad for you. it's not hard.
[13:24]	Nyx Linden 	I will pass on your request for a meeting
[13:24]	Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	LL has 6 months to act on a DMCA last I hear
[13:24]	Merrick Genesis 	Extortion is a RL crime
[13:24]	Tiberious Neruda 	....my question, if I had to come up with one, is since this meeting has morphed into a mesh one, why isn't there one for content business-Linden relations?
[13:24]	World Undercroft Sirnah (world.undercroft) 	yay!
[13:24]	Fatality (fatalityx) 	Actually no, a lot of us here are designers, we came together, Design
[13:24]	Isoldel 	Thank you.
[13:24]	Mimi Juneau 	it's urgent !!!
[13:24]	Ramses Meredith 	to be explicit kinggon.net had issues becosue we have fill a DMCA to the provider, also we have send one to the eu provider
[13:24]	World Undercroft Sirnah (world.undercroft) 	finally something may be done
[13:24]	Frolic Mills 	HI Nyx - with all due respect, the situation is actually worst than just a copybot - the fashion community is getting extorted by thee individuals that if we dont give them RL money, they will copybot, or crash our events, etc .. the situation is actually becoming very criminal, and are asking for your help to stop this - pls
[13:24]	Fatality (fatalityx) 	Thank you very much, Nyx
[13:24]	Ramses Meredith 	so u can kill copybotters, need to have ONE referent for all
[13:25]	Tiberious Neruda 	wait...
[13:25]	Steele Sirnah Undercroft (steele.sirnah) 	once we don't pay to stop them from crashing our shows they do crash them
[13:25]	Steele Sirnah Undercroft (steele.sirnah) 	and the show doesn't finish
[13:25]	Tiberious Neruda 	extortion? Isn't that a federal crime due to the interstate nature of SL/the 'net?
[13:25]	Steele Sirnah Undercroft (steele.sirnah) 	and the designers that paid money for the designs in the show aren't very happy
[13:25]	Frolic Mills 	yes it is tiberious
[13:25]	Fatality (fatalityx) 	Now you're getting it, Tiberious
[13:25]	Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	ban them from the region
[13:25]	Mimi Juneau 	what happened to the thousands of abuse reports???
[13:25]	Ramses Meredith 	extorsion can be done if are in rl in sl how can extorce u money
[13:26]	Ramses Meredith 	u keep track of the talk and report it
[13:26]	Nyx Linden 	if anyone has any open support cases around this, please send me an IM with the reference number, so I can give our support team a starting point.
[13:26]	Frolic Mills 	I have reported all of them ramses - she gets a 4 day ban and she is back again
[13:26]	Steele Sirnah Undercroft (steele.sirnah) 	bringing ore designers in
[13:26]	Steele Sirnah Undercroft (steele.sirnah) 	all who have been extoreted to pay them money or they will be copybotted an dpassed out
[13:26]	Merrick Genesis 	according to CA state law, all that requires for extortion to be a crime is for the message to be sent. Frolic doesn't have to give in and pay. No one has to pay. The message just has to be sent.
[13:26]	Ramona Criss 	well exactly a few animators made AR and DMCA for same avatar and he is still not banned ? why ?
[13:26]	Chris Kayor 	many with copybot viewers can override the sim permissions systems and arrive in spite of bans
[13:26]	Frolic Mills 	plus she has a million alts too
[13:27]	Fatality (fatalityx) 	Ramses, if someone threatens to copy your entire shop and sell it, threatens to copy your shape, your skin, your hair, etc etc if you refuse to pay and then sell it or give it away. Extortion is extortion. No matter how you slice it. SL or RL
[13:27]	Nyx Linden 	Ramona: I do not personally have access to look into why a specific avatar is or is not banned. Our support team handles that, I will pass along the concern.
[13:27]	Tiberious Neruda 	....then screw the ARs. Best way is to let them actually -stay- online so their RL information can be subpoenaed and they can face real federal charges
[13:28]	ratclonerloveyouLL 	Please do understand All Tipe's of Cageing huds screwup users Secondlife fantasy and well cpu which is tolley against ToS but bypass with some lindens but those abuse their Anihuds
[13:28]	Chris Kayor 	that makes the Lab complicitious
[13:28]	World Undercroft Sirnah (world.undercroft) 	If a special meeting can be arranged to cover our issues I am all for it
[13:28]	Fatality (fatalityx) 	yes please, that would be wonderful
[13:28]	Isoldel 	Question: Does the constant crashing a sim hurt the hardware supporting the sim? That is something I personally would like to know because I do worry about the safety of the hardware that is supporting not just us, but others.
[13:28]	Mimi Juneau 	as soon as possible
[13:28]	Chris Kayor 	there is no safe Harbor provision in the Extortion laws like there is in the DMCA
[13:28]	Ramona Criss 	a couple years ago i know pearsons that was banned only becouse they had stolen things in inventory
[13:28]	World Undercroft Sirnah (world.undercroft) 	we need to have any answer at this point
[13:28]	Ramses Meredith 	fatality, ramonzita have try to threat me i old no and when she have do with her alts i have open admca linden labs have delete items and all was done, plus i have send dmca to who hosted files and to providers of kingdoon.net and on the eu provider
[13:28]	World Undercroft Sirnah (world.undercroft) 	or kiss my premiuam A$$ bye bye
[13:29]	Design Engineer 	running a service doesn't make you 'complicitious' to what people do on that service.
[13:29]	Gamp Lane 	Those of us who are models spend money and hours preparing for shows and to have one individual allowed to crash shows..cobybot models..is a shame
[13:29]	Nyx Linden 	I will pass along the request, but generally our support team handles each issue on a case by case basis. please continue to file an abuse report when you see issues, and a DMCA if you see your IP being infringed.
[13:29]	Frolic Mills 	ty Nix
[13:29]	Chris Kayor 	passing the issue into the dead letter file doesnt help
[13:29]	Fatality (fatalityx) 	Thank you Nyx. It's greatly appreciated.
[13:29]	World Undercroft Sirnah (world.undercroft) 	Ty nyx :)
[13:29]	Fatality (fatalityx) 	It's further than we've gotten so far.
[13:29]	Ramses Meredith 	do not forget laws have 2 lades: one side uhave the right to acuse somebody, on other side somebody is iinnocent until u probe this and lidnen labs are in the midddle, for sure need to investigate
[13:30]	Mimi Juneau 	come on Nyx ! we do this for 8 months or longer !
[13:30]	Xandrah Sciavo 	and if we are harassed, Nyx, and threatened, and followed around.... and we file report after report... and it doesn't stop... may i just please, please ask... what recourse have we then? other than to put up or shut up?
[13:30]	Nyx Linden 	ok we're 90 minutes into a 60 minute meeting, I need to wrap this up.
[13:30]	Ramses Meredith 	and in the case of ramonzita need a huge investigation
[13:30]	Ramona Criss 	every time latly when i fill an AR i feel i loose my time becouse nobody take action against avi that i make raport
[13:30]	Design Engineer 	actually LL doesn't investigate anything. Criminal investigations are conducted by Law Enforcement. If you're being extorted, you should report it to your local law enforcement.
[13:30]	Fatality (fatalityx) 	I thought you said you weren't diplomatic Ramses...listen to you :P
[13:30]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Alexa Linden tells us that all AR's and bug reports are read. You may be able to get more information from Alexa.
[13:31]	Frolic Mills 	ramses it is not a secret that ramnzita has publicly said that she will try and destroy my event this coming saturday if I dont pay her 65,000 lindens ... I have sent this info copy/pasted exactly
[13:31]	ratclonerloveyouLL 	I was lockout early and it was problemly because i was traget by Flase AR :(
[13:31]	Mrs. Capalini (ava.jhamin) 	I said 3 times reported to FBI we need LL to gather all the AR and all reports and do something then temporary band aid.
[13:31]	Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	alexa deals with bug reports, not ARs
[13:31]	Ramses Meredith 	fatality i am not u are right
[13:31]	Fatality (fatalityx) 	Thank you again Nyx. I plan to continue coming to meetings until we can be heard. And I believe a good many of us will be together.
[13:31]	Mrs. Capalini (ava.jhamin) 	nods
[13:32]	Mimi Juneau 	we all will be here from now on
[13:32]	Merrick Genesis 	I think many of us will join you until we are heard. Thank you Nyx
[13:32]	Fatality (fatalityx) 	It takes a village. And it's about time we made SL the community it used to be.
[13:32]	Nyx Linden 	thanks for coming out today everyone! Please feel free to continue to attend, and post topics
[13:32]	World Undercroft Sirnah (world.undercroft) 	thank you :)
[13:32]	Martin RJ (martinrj.fayray) 	Goodbye
[13:32]	Isoldel 	Thank you.
[13:32]	Nyx Linden 	have a great week
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