Mesh/Archive/2011-06-27

==Agenda==
# Figuring out a sane and conservative way to implement "set by UUID" for Meshes, builtin delay by link set for example, to prevent excessive mesh swapping/animating attempts, yet allow loading and unloading a mesh for legitimate uses.--Kyrah Abattoir 14:33, 21 June 2011 (PDT)
# Why is the root of a linkset not able to have physics shape type "None"? [Drongle McMahon]
# Will the new sculpty normalised triangle area limit be increased so that my ladders (and potentially other existing content) are not destroyed on release? (http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/World-record-broken/m-p/918175/highlight/true#M1544)[Drongle]
# "SL meshes are essentially static objects": does it mean they would perform poorly when used in vehicles ? How are mesh vehicles expected to behave in region crossings ? [Bunnie Mills]
# Is the license of the llm file of the Viewer LGPL? Or is it CC BY 3.0? Second Life avatar meshes:http://static.secondlife.com/downloads/avatar/avatar_mesh.zip returns 404. So I can't get avatara morph and joint data.[Yuzuru Jewell]
# Does the mesh uploader/SL interpret the Bind Poses Array differently based on the avatar joint name format and/or the Authoring Tool name. I ask this because I cannot see why names only should change the worn appearance see https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/CTS-660. [Chodai Yoshikawa]
# Is it too late to propose an alternative to the prim equivilance system being implemented? Two people did so: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/A-draft-to-end-PEwt-discussions-The-resource-point-system/td-p/945759 http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/One-metric-is-not-enough/td-p/948895 (Tapple Gao)
# Why is the Server cost of the first mesh object 1.5 instead of 1 only ? (Why can't we make meshes with PE=1 ?) (gaia clary)
# How do we fix the link to the meeting location on the Office Hours page? (Nalates Urriah)
==Meeting Notes==
==Attendees List==
*NEEDADISPENSERHERE (ac14.hutson)
*Angel (angel.alphaville)
*arton Rotaru (arton.rotaru)
*Asha (ashasekayi.ra)
*Bloodsong Termagant (bloodsong.termagant)
*Bunnie Mills (bunnie.mills)
*Charlar Linden (charlar.linden)
*Dain Shan (dain.shan)
*draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam)
*Drongle McMahon (drongle.mcmahon)
*Eleanora Newell (eleanora.newell)
*Flea Yatsenko (flea.yatsenko)
*Gaia Clary (gaia.clary)
*Kyrah Abattoir (kyrah.abattoir)
*Latif Khalifa (latif.khalifa)
*Lazy (lazy.spectre)
*Leonel Iceghost (leonel.iceghost)
*Myriam's-Xcite! Bullwhip (myriam\'s-xcite!.bullwhip)
*Nal (nalates.urriah)
*Nyx Linden (nyx.linden)
*Penny Patton (penny.patton)
*Prep Linden (prep.linden)
*Ranya Palmer (ranya.palmer)
*Ravelli Ormstein (ravelli.ormstein)
*davep (runitai.linden)
*Tapple Gao (tapple.gao)
*Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda)
*Vivienne Daguerre (vivienne.daguerre)
*Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)
==Transcript for Monday June 27, 2011==
[12:01]	Tapple Gao 	most SH issius are viewable by lindens only
[12:02]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	'Ello 'ello
[12:02]	Prep Linden 	hi folks!
[12:02]	Ranya Palmer 	hi everybody
[12:02]	Drongle McMahon 	You can set that in the Edit Advanced tab.
[12:02]	Tapple Gao 	hello mr prep
[12:02]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	hello
[12:03]	davep (runitai.linden) 	change blue
[12:03]	Charlar Linden 	We'll start in just a sexc..
[12:03]	Charlar Linden 	oops
[12:03]	Charlar Linden 	sec.
[12:04]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	ah... sometimes typos can be epic :3
[12:04]	Lazy (lazy.spectre) 	㋡
[12:04]	Dain Shan 	We dosent mentioned something about a freudian slip ... yet
[12:04]	Charlar Linden 	Agenda: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group
[12:05]	Charlar Linden 	Figuring out a sane and conservative way to implement "set by UUID" for Meshes, builtin delay by link set for example, to prevent excessive mesh swapping/animating attempts, yet allow loading and unloading a mesh for legitimate uses.--Kyrah Abattoir 14:33, 21 June 2011 (PDT)
[12:05]	Kyrah Abattoir 	that's me
[12:05]	Nyx Linden 	There are a number of technical reasons why we can't implement that aside from preventing the inefficient animaiton case
[12:06]	Kyrah Abattoir 	Care to explain?
[12:06]	Nyx Linden 	our server isn't able to swap the mesh shape on the fly without causing significant stability problems
[12:06]	Latif Khalifa 	lol
[12:06]	Nyx Linden 	we did some experimentation with this early on and ran into all manner of performance and stability issues
[12:06]	Kyrah Abattoir 	That would set a precedent where meshes , while being the most advanced type of primitive would be the less flexible.
[12:08]	Charlar Linden 	This also an advantage for protecting your work from theft. It doesn't solve it, but it does make things somewhat more secure.
[12:08]	Latif Khalifa 	lol again
[12:08]	Kyrah Abattoir 	not really Charlar, my proposal was only to "set" meshes, not grab their uuid from an existing one
[12:08]	Kyrah Abattoir 	you would only risk to lose mesh uuid that you accept to.
[12:08]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	Kyrah: they did. Initially, the mesh asset was a separate inventory item like a sculpt map that you could drop into a prim and have it take the shape
[12:09]	Kyrah Abattoir 	i know i was there
[12:09]	Gaia Clary 	i found that feature very usefull
[12:09]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	I'd heard it mentione din previous meetings that they had to disable it 'cause it caused sim crashes
[12:09]	Kyrah Abattoir 	So , lets assume it was possible to solve this isntability issue
[12:10]	davep (runitai.linden) 	"maybe someday" but certainly not now
[12:10]	Nyx Linden 	sorry we can't enable this feature.
[12:10]	Tapple Gao 	won't happen before release at least
[12:10]	Kyrah Abattoir 	good, as long as it's someday and not "out of the question"
[12:10]	Charlar Linden 	it's bad to assume things like that
[12:10]	Nyx Linden 	we're focused on whats absolutely necessary to get the basic functionality out the door right now
[12:10]	davep (runitai.linden) 	it's "probably never"
[12:10]	davep (runitai.linden) 	almost certainly never, and definitely not now
[12:10]	Latif Khalifa 	runtai, or until you get some adult supervision ;)
[12:11]	Vivienne Daguerre 	can we keep things polite please?
[12:11]	Kyrah Abattoir 	probably never is bad i can't even see from a programming standpoint what the blocking element can be... other than terrible programming...
[12:11]	Vivienne Daguerre 	no need for personal attacks and insults
[12:11]	Drongle McMahon 	Is there a public list of what's absolutely necessary?
[12:11]	Kyrah Abattoir 	and if it's physics, then it could be allowed for mesh with no physical shape
[12:11]	Nyx Linden 	right now? mainly stability
[12:12]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	like attachments, you mean?
[12:12]	Nyx Linden 	so for the first topic, the answer is definitely not now, low chance of enabling it in the future.
[12:12]	Drongle McMahon 	Consistent PEwts?
[12:12]	Kyrah Abattoir 	but if unloading and loading meshes was an issue there wouldn't be much games out there...
[12:12]	Kyrah Abattoir 	but thanks for the positive answer Nyx
[12:13]	Charlar Linden 	OK, let's move on?
[12:13]	Latif Khalifa 	or rezzing/drezzing objects in sl
[12:13]	Charlar Linden 	Why is the root of a linkset not able to have physics shape type "None"? [Drongle McMahon]
[12:13]	Nyx Linden 	we need to ensure that at least one prim in the linkset has a non-none physics type
[12:13]	Nyx Linden 	so we enforce that the root prim must be non-none
[12:13]	Tapple Gao 	why?
[12:14]	Drongle McMahon 	Why at least one?
[12:14]	Nyx Linden 	every object needs *some* physical representation
[12:14]	Tapple Gao 	attachments don't
[12:14]	Drongle McMahon 	Why?
[12:14]	Nyx Linden 	I'll defer on the details to Falcon :)
[12:14]	Nyx Linden 	but that's what I've been informed is the restriction we have to work with
[12:15]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	I really don't understand this, but why doesn't setting the thing to Phantom work?
[12:15]	Drongle McMahon 	I don't mean to dispute it, just interested.
[12:15]	davep (runitai.linden) 	when you set it to phantom, a physics proxy still exists
[12:15]	Charlar Linden 	We'll get more details from Falcon and pass them on.
[12:15]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	I mean, what does that do that having it all be 'none' doesn't?
[12:15]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	okay
[12:16]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	...so 'all-none' makes it invisiblr to the physics system completely
[12:16]	Drongle McMahon 	Phantom infects the whole linkset.
[12:16]	davep (runitai.linden) 	the sim relies on a physics proxy for things like streaming and parcel return -- this is something that should probably be documented on the wiki if it isn't already
[12:16]	Drongle McMahon 	None doesn't.
[12:16]	Tapple Gao 	is there a forum topic to direct falcon to and post there?
[12:16]	Nyx Linden 	I don't believe so, please feel free to start one :)
[12:16]	Charlar Linden 	next item?
[12:16]	Drongle McMahon 	That would be nice ... to document it.
[12:17]	Charlar Linden 	Will the new sculpty normalised triangle area limit be increased so that my ladders (and potentially other existing content) are not destroyed on release? [Drongle]
[12:17]	Drongle McMahon 	Not on the official forum, as far as I know.
[12:17]	davep (runitai.linden) 	drongle: looks like there will be one viewer version released that will break that ladder, but it should be fixed in the next version
[12:18]	Drongle McMahon 	Who said that? Names vanished :-(
[12:18]	Gaia Clary 	"sculpty normalised triangle area limit" ? Where can i read about that ?
[12:18]	Drongle McMahon 	On Aditi?
[12:18]	Tapple Gao 	runtai/davep
[12:19]	Eleanora Newell 	oh, glad to know i am not the only one who can't see any names
[12:19]	Drongle McMahon 	Gaia .. the limit is active here if you want to test.
[12:19]	davep (runitai.linden) 	on agni, unfortunately
[12:19]	Gaia Clary 	i want to know what it IS... i have no idea ...
[12:19]	Drongle McMahon 	Arrggh.
[12:19]	arton Rotaru 	LOL
[12:19]	Drongle McMahon 	I mentioned it in the forums.
[12:19]	Nyx Linden 	some sculpts have a massive amount of surface area which creates bad performance and stability problems
[12:19]	arton Rotaru 	why can't it be fixed before release
[12:20]	davep (runitai.linden) 	actually, it's probably only going to be broken in a beta version
[12:20]	Nyx Linden 	we have a fix for it, and are tweaking it so that it doesn't break content, but that takes some time to get the tweaks just right
[12:20]	davep (runitai.linden) 	(unless it's broken in 2.7.2)
[12:20]	arton Rotaru 	OK,
[12:20]	Eleanora Newell 	how do we determine good and bad sculpts?
[12:20]	arton Rotaru 	yyeah, whats the number?
[12:21]	davep (runitai.linden) 	bad sculpts will only ever show as a sphere and a warning will emit to the log
[12:21]	Tapple Gao 	put the forum url on the agenda drongle, and perhaps runtai can comment on it later
[12:21]	Eleanora Newell 	but no way to know how to prevent this before going through time and trouble to make them to find out they're "broken" in sl?
[12:22]	Drongle McMahon 	I'm trying to find it....
[12:22]	Nyx Linden 	very very few sculpts are actually problematic.
[12:22]	davep (runitai.linden) 	once we get the number right, it should be impossible to accidentally make something that's broken
[12:23]	arton Rotaru 	how is this check working, by uploading an image
[12:23]	Charlar Linden 	ok, lets keep going...
[12:23]	Charlar Linden 	4. "SL meshes are essentially static objects": does it mean they would perform poorly when used in vehicles ? How are mesh vehicles expected to behave in region crossings ? [Bunnie Mills]
[12:24]	arton Rotaru 	good question
[12:24]	Nyx Linden 	where are you getting that quite from btw? I don't recognize the context around it?
[12:24]	Nyx Linden 	*quote
[12:24]	Bloodsong Termagant 	isnt that related to the uuid swapping thing?
[12:24]	Bloodsong Termagant 	(well, sounds like, to me)
[12:24]	Bunnie Mills 	it was about manipulation of meshes
[12:24]	Nyx Linden 	trying to figure out what is meant by "static" in this context
[12:24]	arton Rotaru 	a car for example
[12:24]	Bunnie Mills 	yes, inworld manipulations
[12:24]	arton Rotaru 	crossing a border
[12:25]	Nyx Linden 	mesh vehicles should perform just fine, if not better than prim vehicles
[12:25]	Bunnie Mills 	yet the word static rang a bell, hence the question
[12:25]	Nyx Linden 	that's a completely separate issue than modifying a mesh after import
[12:26]	Bunnie Mills 	ok... yet you introduce the mesh into a new sim, much like invoking its UUID by script ?
[12:26]	davep (runitai.linden) 	it's a completely different code path than swapping a UUID
[12:26]	Drongle McMahon 	sculpty filter thing : http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/World-record-broken/m-p/918175/highlight/true#M1544
[12:26]	Bunnie Mills 	by crossing
[12:26]	davep (runitai.linden) 	setting an ID by script doesn't invoke the rez pipeline
[12:26]	Ravelli Ormstein 	thank you for the link
[12:26]	Bunnie Mills 	ok thank you
[12:27]	Charlar Linden 	next
[12:27]	Charlar Linden 	5. Is the license of the llm file of the Viewer LGPL? Or is it CC BY 3.0? Second Life avatar meshes:http://static.secondlife.com/downloads/avatar/avatar_mesh.zip returns 404. So I can't get avatara morph and joint data.[Yuzuru Jewell]
[12:27]	Nyx Linden 	where is that link coming from?
[12:28]	Bunnie Mills 	i had the same 404
[12:28]	Nyx Linden 	I'll look into what the license should be and circle back, but in case I need to update the link, where did you find it?
[12:28]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Please wait. I found it form wiki.
[12:28]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	from https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Clothing_Tutorials
[12:29]	Dain Shan 	By the way .. just as a sidenote .. the avatar link on the animation site is broken too
[12:29]	Eleanora Newell 	drongle, do you have a jira for that breaking issue?
[12:29]	Nyx Linden 	ok, I'll look into why the link is broken and what the license for that download should be. Thanks for bringing it to my attention :)
[12:30]	Drongle McMahon 	No. I didn't do a jira. Just sent a broken sculptmap to Runitai/Davep.
[12:30]	davep (runitai.linden) 	kk, I'll make a jira
[12:30]	Drongle McMahon 	Should I do a jira?
[12:30]	Drongle McMahon 	OK
[12:30]	Charlar Linden 	onward
[12:31]	Charlar Linden 	6. Does the mesh uploader/SL interpret the Bind Poses Array differently based on the avatar joint name format and/or the Authoring Tool name. I ask this because I cannot see why names only should change the worn appearance see https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/CTS-660. [Chodai Yoshikawa]
[12:31]	Prep Linden 	The mesh importer does not interpret the joint array differently based upon either the naming or the authoring tool.
[12:31]	Prep Linden 	The mesh importer does not interpret the joint array differently based upon the authoring tool. We do use the joint names
[12:32]	davep (runitai.linden) 	SH-1926 created
[12:32]	davep (runitai.linden) 	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SH-1926
[12:32]	Gaia Clary 	Permission Violation
[12:32]	davep (runitai.linden) 	yay!
[12:32]	Ravelli Ormstein 	same here
[12:33]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	it's SH... nobody but Lindens can see it
[12:33]	Drongle McMahon 	Shhhh!
[12:33]	davep (runitai.linden) 	try again
[12:33]	Ravelli Ormstein 	works
[12:33]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	that's one thing that kinda bugs me... the build changes list SH issues for fixes, but we never know what they are if they were CTS items originlly
[12:34]	arton Rotaru 	true
[12:34]	Charlar Linden 	OK - next.
[12:34]	Charlar Linden 	7. Is it too late to propose an alternative to the prim equivilance system being implemented? Two people did so: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/A-draft-to-end-PEwt-discussions-The-resource-point-system/td-p/945759 http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/One-metric-is-not-enough/td-p/948895 (Tapple Gao)
[12:34]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	that's a minor thing that could be done to give us users a much better idea of what was fixed or worked on
[12:34]	Nyx Linden 	yes, its too late :(
[12:34]	Penny Patton 	My main concerns as far as that one goes are 1) making sure efficiently polygon-wise builds remain more efficient as far as prim costs go. Otherwise people will wind up using horribly inefficient sculpts to do what could be done more efficiently with mesh. Also 2) Not tying script limits to prim counts. Which is kinda like enforcing speed limits based on car emissions. Yes, you need limits for both, but letting a car speed 99mph through a school zone because it has lower emissions and forcing a high emission car to putter across the highway at 20mph makes no sense.
[12:35]	Charlar Linden 	fast typist
[12:35]	Charlar Linden 	:-)
[12:35]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	much agreed
[12:35]	Lazy (lazy.spectre) 	+1
[12:35]	Penny Patton 	/me spent 10 years at a typing job. c___c Also had half of that typed up already. c______c
[12:35]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	right now, the costs/weights hamstring mesh FAR too badly
[12:36]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Totally agree with Penny on that...especially concerning scripts
[12:36]	Bloodsong Termagant 	um... i thought scripts saw meshes as 1 prim in the linkset.
[12:36]	Latif Khalifa 	yeah, prim cost with script and scale as factors for mesh only makes no sense
[12:36]	Bloodsong Termagant 	or you talking scripts IN meshes make the meshes cost more prims?
[12:36]	Drongle McMahon 	Good analogy Penny.
[12:36]	Tapple Gao 	the issue, bloodsong, is that adding a script to some meshes doubles the prim count
[12:36]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	that too
[12:36]	Latif Khalifa 	Bloodsong, scripted mesh costs more "prims" than unscripted ones
[12:37]	Bloodsong Termagant 	that's just silly.
[12:37]	Nyx Linden 	whether a prim is dynamic or not affects its server processing time
[12:37]	Tapple Gao 	most things are here bloodsong
[12:37]	NEEDADISPENSERHERE (ac14.hutson) 	i thoguht meshes were always "static"
[12:37]	Nyx Linden 	dynamic being scripted or physical. Its not a measure of script load, but of the liklihood of it generating a lot of objectupdate messages
[12:37]	arton Rotaru 	kust make the overall mesh prim count a bit lower than it is now, and most of us are happy
[12:38]	arton Rotaru 	just*
[12:38]	Bloodsong Termagant 	so... slap a box on it with a script that uses llsetlinkparamthingydoodles?
[12:38]	Drongle McMahon 	Why all these strangling restrictions for rezzed mesh and none for attachments?
[12:38]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	then what is it about a single llTargetOmega on a non-physical mesh that makes it cost twice as much?
[12:38]	Tapple Gao 	would be nice to be able to look at an object and ask it "how many script wakeups/object updates" is it causing
[12:38]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	The restrictions aren't just for rezzed mesh.
[12:38]	Drongle McMahon 	No Ash?
[12:38]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	I mean, how many ObjectUpdates does a TargetOmega cause?
[12:39]	Latif Khalifa 	Asha, prim cost only applies to rezzed mesh
[12:39]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	No
[12:39]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	if the object isn't set physical, anyway
[12:39]	Latif Khalifa 	tiberiouis, only one for non physical target omega
[12:39]	davep (runitai.linden) 	Drongle: because you can mute avatars and remove them from your viewer
[12:39]	Drongle McMahon 	What attachment restrictions are there?
[12:39]	NEEDADISPENSERHERE (ac14.hutson) 	when you have 255 prims per attachment point i think you need to worry about prim cost a little less...
[12:39]	Nyx Linden 	also we haven't gotten to a point where we're ready to do a better job of limiting avatar complexity yet
[12:40]	Drongle McMahon 	I can shrink my draw distance and set renderrVolumeLODFactor to zero,,,,
[12:40]	arton Rotaru 	ok, lets ban avatars^^
[12:40]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Sure. But, worn mesh has other handicaps...like scale... reduced functionality because of no UUID swapping.... no scaling..etc. So no, worn mesh didn't get off free.
[12:40]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	so we're still going to have 100-torus hairs and multi-sculpt builds
[12:40]	arton Rotaru 	+1 Drongle
[12:41]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	Phoenix has Derender
[12:41]	Bloodsong Termagant 	torus schmorus, its those flexi cylinders.
[12:41]	Drongle McMahon 	I'm developing sculpty building components because they are so much cheaper.
[12:41]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	those too
[12:41]	Penny Patton 	Will these script costs be applied back to regular prims or just mesh. I wasn't sure on that point.
[12:41]	Nyx Linden 	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mesh/Costs_and_fees
[12:41]	Tapple Gao 	hopefully all prims
[12:42]	Vivienne Daguerre 	Technology development moves faster and faster. I think we are worrying about a problem that will take care of itself in a year or two.
[12:42]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	...if mesh keeps getting wrecked like this, nobody'll use it
[12:42]	Vivienne Daguerre 	Put money into staying on the cutting edge of server technology and we will be fine
[12:42]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	It's just mesh that is applies to Penny.
[12:43]	Nyx Linden 	only things that use the new accounting system. So meshes, prims that use the new shape types, or anything linked to the first two categories
[12:43]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	...outside of avatars or things sculpts Just Can't Do
[12:43]	Tapple Gao 	maybe hiking mesh costs up is how this will all get stable: high gosts = no mesh = stable grid
[12:43]	Kyrah Abattoir 	and i was hoping to get rid of sculpts...
[12:43]	Leonel Iceghost 	also people could start to abuse llRemoteLoadScriptPin which is not good
[12:43]	Dain Shan 	So .. were still at the more sculpts rage ..
[12:43]	arton Rotaru 	no prims, no scripts, no login at all, that helps alot
[12:43]	Drongle McMahon 	Who would be silly enough to use the new shape types for a prim when they already have the most resource hungry type for no cost?
[12:44]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	and with hacks for sculpts out there (the 8-face baloon, anyone?), there's less and less it 'can't do'
[12:44]	Drongle McMahon 	Nobody will link prims to meshes either.
[12:44]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Very true Drongle
[12:44]	arton Rotaru 	you better don't do
[12:44]	Bunnie Mills 	why ?
[12:44]	Bunnie Mills 	say for architecture builds
[12:44]	arton Rotaru 	cost increase
[12:45]	arton Rotaru 	possible cost increase*
[12:45]	Drongle McMahon 	Because it can increase the cost hundreds of fold.
[12:45]	Bunnie Mills 	by design ?
[12:45]	Bunnie Mills 	: P
[12:45]	Nyx Linden 	anyways, to loop it back, it is in fact too late to change the framework of the accounting system for first release. We're still looking at tweaking our cost formulas.
[12:45]	NEEDADISPENSERHERE (ac14.hutson) 	TOO LATE TO CHANGE IT. ROLL WITH IT ANYWAY
[12:45]	Lazy (lazy.spectre) 	tweak lower plz:)
[12:45]	Ranya Palmer 	linking a mesh to a prim is not as bad as you think
[12:45]	NEEDADISPENSERHERE (ac14.hutson) 	2 years later. oops need ot change it but cant because breaks existing content!
[12:46]	Penny Patton 	To be fair, Nyx said "first release", meaning it could change over time.
[12:46]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	bingo
[12:46]	Drongle McMahon 	How far away from final tweaks do you think you are?
[12:46]	Bloodsong Termagant 	or 'dont be an early developer' :X
[12:46]	Charlar Linden 	OK, time move on...
[12:46]	arton Rotaru 	what about the upload fee?
[12:46]	Charlar Linden 	8. Why is the Server cost of the first mesh object 1.5 instead of 1 only ? (Why can't we make meshes with PE=1 ?) (gaia clary)
[12:46]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	Penny: do you remember when Windlight was new? they said "a future release will have settings sharing"
[12:47]	Tapple Gao 	everybody still dislikes viewer 2 because of the bad first impression left by 2.0, which were fixed soon after release. bad first impressions are killer
[12:47]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	what was that... '09?
[12:47]	Penny Patton 	Yellow: Touche.
[12:47]	Drongle McMahon 	1L$ per vertex?
[12:47]	arton Rotaru 	yeah
[12:47]	arton Rotaru 	10/vert^^
[12:47]	Nyx Linden 	there's an element of server load that is per-linkset (object) and another part that is per-prim. So a single prim object has both costs.
[12:47]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	and even Phoenix getting it in hasn't spurred the devs to make it official
[12:48]	arton Rotaru 	this will take ages till residents have that down Nyx
[12:48]	Gaia Clary 	Nyx i understand what you say, i asked WHY you do so ... ;-)
[12:48]	Nyx Linden 	the numbers currently are 1.0 per object and 0.5 per prim
[12:48]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	so essentially, what we get at first release IS what we're always going to have
[12:48]	Nyx Linden 	why the numbers are set to those numbers, or why its structured that way?
[12:48]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	the track record is there
[12:48]	Gaia Clary 	Why cant we get meshes which cost 1 Prim ponly ...
[12:49]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	WHy is it structured that way?
[12:49]	arton Rotaru 	because they don't want to
[12:49]	Drongle McMahon 	Because mesh must be punished Gaia.
[12:49]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	agreed. Meshes that are simple enough shouldn't cost more than a prim
[12:49]	arton Rotaru 	mesh can be simple enough*
[12:49]	Kyrah Abattoir 	Pordon me if i sound sarcastic but it feels like, at Linden Labs meshes are like some sort of demonic beast that they are absolutely frightened of.
[12:49]	arton Rotaru 	but don't have to
[12:50]	Gaia Clary 	if you would give an explanation why meshes cost 2 prims at minimum, that would give me the chance to explain in my tutorials why it is GOOD to do meshes...
[12:50]	davep (runitai.linden) 	if it's part of a link set, one of the individual meshes will cost less than one prim
[12:50]	davep (runitai.linden) 	but there's overhead associated with each "object" (root prim)
[12:50]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	2.0 PEwt
[12:50]	davep (runitai.linden) 	and by "will" I mean "can" if it's simple enough
[12:50]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	for 20 triangles, 12 verts
[12:50]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	So, you are saying the overhead for even a mesh with 12 triangles is at least 2 prims?
[12:50]	arton Rotaru 	so make sure you put enough verts in your 2PE meshes
[12:51]	Tapple Gao 	I really think this punishment should be applied to all prims, not just meshes
[12:51]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	amen to THAT
[12:51]	NEEDADISPENSERHERE (ac14.hutson) 	i dont think its the mesh that really has anything to do with it. its just being nerfed due to the new prim accounting system that someone though was a great idea.
[12:51]	Penny Patton 	Let's be fair here. LL is trying to shoehorn mesh into a decade old system made without mesh in mind. There may be some background information we're not immediately aware of that they need to compensate for. I'd just like to understand what that background information is.
[12:51]	Gaia Clary 	it is very hard to develop a good strategy for building with these numbers ...
[12:52]	NEEDADISPENSERHERE (ac14.hutson) 	cant apply the "punishment" to all prims because of eixisting content
[12:52]	Dain Shan 	Basically .. you cant Gaia
[12:52]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	I mean, I could probably add more to this as well as UV mapping, and still have the same PEwt
[12:52]	Drongle McMahon 	We have non-additive mathsYes, mesh are paying for the resource profligacy of legacy prims.
[12:52]	arton Rotaru 	the new accounting is great, o question. Only problem is, there is still another^^
[12:52]	Dain Shan 	For simple things there always will be a sculpt..
[12:52]	Gaia Clary 	if LL would tell us what causes these decisions, it would be fine for me.
[12:52]	Tapple Gao 	I just want to see linden lab drive away all the residents with this yellow alloy
[12:52]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	but let's see how many people start abusing toruses when they're more than 1Pewt
[12:52]	Gaia Clary 	i only want to understand WHY. nothing else ...
[12:53]	Nyx Linden 	because that's what our overhead is quite frankly :)
[12:53]	davep (runitai.linden) 	it's... complicated
[12:53]	Kyrah Abattoir 	funny how i suggested that all prims where not equal in weight and everybody laughed at my face... yeap that was 4 years ago
[12:53]	Charlar Linden 	Penny, you are on the right track, and we have talked about it in previous usergroups. I don't want to rehash it again. The devs (who are very devoted to Mesh), need to get back to fixing bugs.
[12:53]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	obviously the "prims" per parcel tiers will change too, right ?
[12:53]	davep (runitai.linden) 	the rez pipeline has to load meshes from the asset server, which is something it doesn't have to do for prims
[12:53]	NEEDADISPENSERHERE (ac14.hutson) 	increase region prim limit by 2x - apply "punishment" to all prims ?
[12:53]	davep (runitai.linden) 	there are also complications around the physics data that are different from prims
[12:54]	Latif Khalifa 	runtai for the geometry. the total cost will be far offset by the textures
[12:54]	Gaia Clary 	ah... that gives me some hints....
[12:54]	davep (runitai.linden) 	and, frankly, a lot of these accounting changes are things we've wanted to put it in for a long time but couldn't because it would break legacy content
[12:54]	Kyrah Abattoir 	couldn't we have a "sculpt equivalent" kind of mesh, with just a ball as collisions, it seems it would be enough in so many applications...
[12:54]	davep (runitai.linden) 	(see SL's bad framerate and sim lag)
[12:54]	Latif Khalifa 	so the number of bytes in assets taht you need to fetch to display objects will not differ drastically from mesh to prims
[12:54]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	I would particularly "punish" big huge textures
[12:55]	Lazy (lazy.spectre) 	the bad FPS will continue if mesh cant compete in terms of prim cost though...
[12:55]	Tapple Gao 	applying a texture should increase prim count too
[12:55]	davep (runitai.linden) 	the number of bytes to be fetched is significantly higher even for the simplest of meshes
[12:55]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	Precisely, Lazy
[12:55]	Charlar Linden 	shouts: While this is going on, I want to address the last agenda item:
[12:55]	Charlar Linden 	9. How do we fix the link to the meeting location on the Office Hours page? (Nalates Urriah)
[12:55]	Penny Patton 	FPS isn't the only issue. Bandwidth and server burden also have to be taken into consideration.
[12:55]	Gaia Clary 	Rujnitai, does that imply that Sculpties are more efficient regarding server costs ?
[12:55]	Latif Khalifa 	runtai, for geometry alone true, not for the total cost of object when you getch all the textures
[12:55]	Charlar Linden 	I'll fix it later, thanks for the note Nalates
[12:55]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	If one clicks the SLURL o LLO:OH page the maps.secondlife.com page gives a link to secondlife://Ahern/0/0/0
[12:56]	Latif Khalifa 	meses pale in byte size in comparison to textures
[12:56]	davep (runitai.linden) 	Gaia: no, sculpty accounting has no basis in reality
[12:56]	Vivienne Daguerre 	even that is not equal... if I have a very complex mesh made of things that would take several sculpties to make, or ordinary prims, with a separate 512 x 512 texture on each piece, then using a 1024 x 1024 texture on one mesh replacing all that still gives a savings texturewise... nothing is simple
[12:56]	davep (runitai.linden) 	also, texture accounting has no basis in reality
[12:56]	davep (runitai.linden) 	nor does script or attachment reality
[12:56]	davep (runitai.linden) 	accounting, even
[12:56]	Drongle McMahon 	Kyrah ... you can make a ball physics shape if you want it.
[12:56]	Tapple Gao 	does any accounting have basis in reality?
[12:56]	davep (runitai.linden) 	the new accounting does
[12:57]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	then apply that all across the board, legacy content be damned
[12:57]	Latif Khalifa 	runtai, you know what else doesn't have basis in reality, that in 2011 you increase cost of resources compared to 2004
[12:57]	Charlar Linden 	and we're just about out of time
[12:57]	Nyx Linden 	we're trying to be much more up front with where our costs come from
[12:57]	NEEDADISPENSERHERE (ac14.hutson) 	so one that has a basis in reality is competing with one that odsent... lol
[12:57]	Latif Khalifa 	in the same perioid all other services have gotten 10 times cheaper
[12:57]	NEEDADISPENSERHERE (ac14.hutson) 	dosen't*
[12:57]	Gaia Clary 	ehmm.. i mean... if i compare a default sculpty with a minimal mesh, then thie mesh still is less efficient regarding server resources than sculpty ... that is independent of any accounting i guess...
[12:57]	arton Rotaru 	thats the problem ac14
[12:58]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	I mean, let's be honest... aside from nostalgia, what does 2004/2005 content have that 2010/2011 stuff doesn't?
[12:58]	Tapple Gao 	I'd rather see the costs measured in wakeups per second, sim outgoing bandwidth, rather than a magic prim equivilance number
[12:58]	NEEDADISPENSERHERE (ac14.hutson) 	less prims apparently
[12:58]	Penny Patton 	Yellow: It is all filled with fresh, homebaked apple pie.
[12:59]	arton Rotaru 	Ok, I have to run
[12:59]	davep (runitai.linden) 	Tapple: the cost has to be constant and consistent despite the number of connected agents to avoid unpredictable object return
[12:59]	davep (runitai.linden) 	due to overflowing parcel limit
[12:59]	arton Rotaru 	Happy tweaking lindens
[12:59]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Thank you! see you next week!
[12:59]	Charlar Linden 	thanks - please keep on testing!
[12:59]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	TY... bye
[13:00]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Adios Lindens
[13:00]	draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam)	thanks for fixing the camera in the mesh client, hopefully it will get ported to viewer-development
[13:00]	Gaia Clary 	so can i tell, that sculpties have a more efficient imprint on server ? yes or no ?
[13:00]	Kyrah Abattoir 	they haven't any
[13:00]	Bunnie Mills 	thank you Lindens, bye bye everyone
[13:00]	davep (runitai.linden) 	sculpties are more efficient on the server than meshes in terms of simulation cost
[13:00]	Kyrah Abattoir 	as far as the server is concerned you rezzed a ball
[13:00]	Gaia Clary 	ok.
[13:00]	Kyrah Abattoir 	i wish meshes offered a simmilar mode...
[13:00]	davep (runitai.linden) 	but they're more expensive in terms of bandwidth if you maxed out a sim with unique sculpties
[13:01]	Nyx Linden 	so its complicated :)
[13:01]	davep (runitai.linden) 	actually, I take that back
[13:01]	Gaia Clary 	i see that ;-)
[13:01]	Gaia Clary 	um,m...
[13:01]	Kyrah Abattoir 	not entirely out of our grasp tho some peoples here are professionals...
[13:01]	davep (runitai.linden) 	if you do a non-uniform scale on a sculpty, it's physically quite expensive for the simulator
[13:01]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	....let me be honest. I can understand the goal of keeping as much legacy content unbroken as possible...
[13:01]	davep (runitai.linden) 	because it has to simulate it as an ellipsoid mesh
[13:01]	Gaia Clary 	non uniform scale ?
[13:01]	davep (runitai.linden) 	instead of an analyitcal sphere
[13:01]	Gaia Clary 	ah
[13:01]	Flea Yatsenko 	heya
[13:02]	davep (runitai.linden) 	(see the physics shape display)
[13:02]	Tapple Gao 	most sculpties are phantom anyway
[13:02]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	but sometimes, it HAS to be done
[13:02]	Kyrah Abattoir 	davep, so are spheres then :)
[13:02]	NEEDADISPENSERHERE (ac14.hutson) 	well atleast when mesh comes out i can get rid of the sculpt collidion maps on my vehicles
[13:02]	davep (runitai.linden) 	Kyrah: aye
[13:02]	davep (runitai.linden) 	prims suck for physics
[13:03]	davep (runitai.linden) 	(and rendered triangle count)
[13:03]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	AFK
[13:03]	davep (runitai.linden) 	and render batching
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