Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.02.05

Simulator_User_Group
Prev 2013.01.29	Next 2013.02.12
== List of Speakers ==
Erick Gregan 	Ima Mechanique 	Inara Pey
Jonathan Yap 	Kelly Linden 	Kitto Flora
Lares Carter 	Lucia Nightfire	MartinRJ
Motor Loon 	Nalates Urriah 	NeoBokrug Elytis
Qie Niangao 	Rex Cronon 	Simon Linden
Tankmaster Finesmith	Whirly Fizzle 	Yuzuru Jewell
== Transcript ==
[12:03] Simon Linden: We'll get started in a second....
[12:03] Simon Linden: or a few of 'em
[12:04] Motor Loon: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2013-02-04/td-p/1872567
[12:04] Simon Linden: Thanks Motor, that's what I was looking for
[12:04] Yuzuru Jewell: Thank you, Motor.
[12:04] Motor Loon: Had it up so figured I'd save you some time °?°
[12:05] Erick Gregan: hello Simon
[12:05] Simon Linden: So we updated the server main channel this morning with some maintenance code that was on a RC channel
[12:05] Simon Linden: ... from LeTigre
[12:05] Erick Gregan: a
[12:05] Erick Gregan: yes... but, I'm here to talk about the intersection of sim ... it works very badly. and many people are concerned, communities are losing a lot of people
[12:05] Erick Gregan: yes ... goal, I'm here to talk about the intersection of sim ... it works very badly. And Many people are Concerned, Communities are losing a lot of people
[12:05] Erick Gregan: cela dure depuis des mois maintenant
[12:05] Erick Gregan: it lasts for months now
[12:05] Simon Linden: The RC channels are all scheduled to get updates tomorrow. I haven't heard of any explosions or fires in the testing lab, so I think they will go as planned
[12:05] Motor Loon: "Improved effectiveness of estate bans " <-- yeah!
[12:06] Erick Gregan: cela fait deux ans que j'entend ce discours
[12:06] Erick Gregan: it's been two years since I heard this speech
[12:06] Erick Gregan: et nous ne voyons rien venir.. alors je suis perplexe
[12:06] Erick Gregan: and we see nothing coming .. so I'm confused
[12:06] Simon Linden: yeah, that will be interesting to hear about ... Kelly did some work on it trying to identify and plug some possible holes
[12:07] Erick Gregan: aujourd'hui meme... j'ai recu des echo comme quoi cela ne fonctionne pas
[12:07] Erick Gregan: even today ... I received the echo as what does not work
[12:07] Tankmaster Finesmith: hold of on that for later, erick
[12:07] Simon Linden: Andrew is not able to come to the user group today, but his interest list work will get a few bug fixes and be updated
[12:07] Erick Gregan: si vous le souhaitez je peux vous envoyer une copie de chat de groupe qui parle de ce probleme
[12:07] Erick Gregan: if you want I can send you a copy cat group that talks about this problem
[12:08] Erick Gregan: andrew... je lui ai fait parvenir une notecard pour expliquer le probleme... je n'ai pas recu de reponse
[12:08] Erick Gregan: andrew ... I made him send a notecard to explain the problem ... I have not received a response
[12:08] Erick Gregan: il refuse de communiquer ?
[12:08] Erick Gregan: he refuses to communicate?
[12:08] Rex Cronon: erick. when you say "intersection of the sim" do you mean sim crossings?
[12:08] Motor Loon: I'm very interested in the interest list work °?°
[12:08] Erick Gregan: oui
[12:08] Erick Gregan: "yes",[["","yes","yeah","yep"],["noun","yea"],["interjection","yes","yea","yep"]]
[12:08] Whirly Fizzle: Oh, re estate bans, Zi Ree, one of the Phoenix/Firestorm developers found a bad bug in Phoenix viewer yesterday which *may* account for some reports of estate bans failing. Phoenix has an estate banm feature called GTFO. If a users bans a resident using this option, the residents name will be added to the estate ban list but the resident doesn't actually get banned. If anyone sees reports of estate bans being ineffective, please make sure they didn't ban using Phoenix viewer. Id so, remove the bane & reban using Viewer 3/Firestorm etc.
[12:09] Motor Loon: no shit Whirly
[12:09] Motor Loon: that might account for alot of it
[12:09] Simon Linden: oh, that's interesting, Whirly -- so the UI ended up being misleading
[12:09] Erick Gregan: je ne suis pas avec phoenix, j'utilise Singularity ou le wiever de seconde life lui meme, et cela ne change rien
[12:09] Erick Gregan: I'm not with phoenix, I use Singularity or wiever second life even it, and it does not change
[12:10] Lucia Nightfire: I stopped using PH moderation after it failed the first time over two years ago
[12:10] Whirly Fizzle: Also tto note that the banned resis name will also show in the estate ban list on Viewer 3 too, if banned usiong GTFO on Phoenix. Do, to them, it looks like the ban was successful
[12:10] Erick Gregan: aujourd'hui j'ai fait des test avec le wiever de SL... et le meme resultat
[12:10] Erick Gregan: Today I did some test with wiever SL ... and the same result
[12:10] Tankmaster Finesmith: no, its a bug in the way it was processing the ban
[12:10] Erick Gregan: 2,3,4,... 10 sim franchie.. et pafff crash
[12:10] Erick Gregan: 2,3,4, ... 10 sim crossed .. and pafff crash
[12:10] Simon Linden: I don't remember the details, but I believe Kelly did find some cases where he thought bans could be bypassed, or issues when the ban list was full
[12:10] Whirly Fizzle: *so to them
[12:10] Motor Loon: does anyone know what Erick is talking about?
[12:10] Tankmaster Finesmith: its doing several things at once, including banning and kicking, but wasnt passing the proper peramiters for all ofwhat it was trying to do
[12:10] Whirly Fizzle: Ya
[12:10] Tankmaster Finesmith: and therefor it failed
[12:11] Lares Carter: Have you filed a bug report on Jira, Erick? Sending notecards to Lindens is the wrong way to report bugs.
[12:11] Lucia Nightfire: idk, I had to mute him sadly
[12:11] Whirly Fizzle: But anyway, once serverside baking drops, Phoenix usage will be minimal on the grid. So shouldn't be a problem too much longer
[12:11] Erick Gregan: a
[12:11] Erick Gregan: le jira concernant ce probleme a été fermé par les soins des Mr Linden
[12:11] Erick Gregan: the jira for this problem was closed by Mr Linden care
[12:11] Erick Gregan: alors quoi faire ?
[12:11] Erick Gregan: then what?
[12:11] Simon Linden: what number?
[12:11] Erick Gregan: a
[12:11] Erick Gregan: il me reste a venir ici
[12:11] Erick Gregan: it remains for me to come here
[12:11] Rex Cronon: the sim should also check before adding people to the ban list, and send error if it can't
[12:11] Tankmaster Finesmith: in another week or so, phoe's usage will drop below V3
[12:12] Simon Linden: On a different topic, the open source effort around materials should have a project viewer soon ... I'm not sure of their schedule, but one of the RC channels has the server code to support that. I'm really interested to see waht people will develop
[12:12] Erick Gregan: a
[12:12] Erick Gregan: le Jiira qui a toujours parlé de ce probleme depuis de nombreuses années
[12:12] Erick Gregan: the Jiira has always talked about this problem for many years
[12:12] Lucia Nightfire: I'll still use an acct for inspections
[12:12] Motor Loon: well, Im just glad the estatebans got some love... they'd been needing it for a long time
[12:12] Lucia Nightfire: as that makes up 90% of my phoenix use today
[12:12] Tankmaster Finesmith: materials... possibly later this week for a project viewer
[12:12] Jonathan Yap: There was talk the other day how many of the library textures could use some updating
[12:12] Simon Linden: oh, that's soon - great
[12:12] Jonathan Yap: to make use of the materials system.
[12:13] Tankmaster Finesmith: tonya was having some issues with the ui, but figured it our
[12:13] Tankmaster Finesmith: out*
[12:13] Erick Gregan: je pense qu'il faudrait finir le débuggage totallement avant d'ajouter des modules
[12:13] Erick Gregan: I think we should totally finish debugging before adding modules
[12:13] Simon Linden: That library content is pretty old ... I'm sure it could use a refresh at some point
[12:13] Tankmaster Finesmith: i think that was the last major stopper
[12:13] Qie Niangao: that's quite good news about the Materials project viewer. yummy.
[12:14] Rex Cronon: gees. i hope i didn't crush u simon:)
[12:14] Erick Gregan: avant de d'ajouter des fonctionalité, il faudrait que les users puissent utiliser celle qui existe
[12:14] Erick Gregan: before adding functionality, users should be able to use the one that exists
[12:14] Erick Gregan: et pour l'instant, je suis desolé, mais ce n'est pas le cas
[12:14] Erick Gregan: and for now, I'm sorry, but this is not the case
[12:14] Simon Linden: One Linden made a great comment in a meeting ... something like "I can't wait to see what dragons people can build with that"
[12:14] Kitto Flora: Hasnt been the case for 8 years. Why expect change now.
[12:14] Tankmaster Finesmith: im not sure how useful itll be fore avatar use
[12:15] Erick Gregan: oui comme remuer les seins et les fesse par example...
[12:15] Erick Gregan: yes as stir breasts and buttocks for example ...
[12:15] Motor Loon: hehe simon
[12:15] Tankmaster Finesmith: also, just a note, itll require lighting and shadows (to be renamed to Advanced Lighting Moddel) for materials to work
[12:15] Erick Gregan: ha ha ha
[12:15] Simon Linden: Materials will work on attachments, won't they?
[12:15] Whirly Fizzle: Yes, in deferred rendering
[12:15] Tankmaster Finesmith: afaik, its just messing with textures
[12:16] Tankmaster Finesmith: but i dont know to what extent
[12:16] Erick Gregan: attendez .. je peux dire quelque chose ???
[12:16] Erick Gregan: wait .. Can I say something???
[12:16] Motor Loon: I think Tank is thinking about rigged mesh avatar replacements
[12:16] Qie Niangao: meaning "deferred rendering" required, but not actual per-pixel lighting, I gather.
[12:16] Erick Gregan: je veux dire que 80% des avatars n'utilisent pas les fonctions graphique avancée...
[12:16] Erick Gregan: I mean 80% of the avatars do not use the advanced graphical features ...
[12:16] Motor Loon: Nothing has stopped you so far Erick °?°
[12:16] Erick Gregan: meme pas les eclairage..
[12:16] Erick Gregan: not even the lighting ..
[12:16] Erick Gregan: distance de vue 60m
[12:16] Erick Gregan: viewing distance 60m
[12:16] Erick Gregan: et autre choses de ce genre
[12:16] Erick Gregan: and other things like that
[12:16] Rex Cronon: so let meget this right. materials will no affect every texture?
[12:17] Erick Gregan: et vous coroyez qu'il seront interessé par les materiaux ?
[12:17] Erick Gregan: and that you will be interested in coroyez the materials?
[12:17] Motor Loon: materials will only affect objects that use the feature
[12:17] Rex Cronon: will now*
[12:17] Erick Gregan: et vous croyez qu'il seront interessé par les materiaux ?
[12:17] Simon Linden: That's correct Rex - it is new data tagged on to content built with it
[12:17] Erick Gregan: and you think it will be interested in the materials?
[12:17] Qie Niangao: (I *wish* it required full lighting and shadows; I have stuff waiting for critical mass of viewers seeing that.)
[12:18] Simon Linden: Erick - SL has been, and always will have, and experimental side to it. This is part of that tradition
[12:18] Nalates Urriah: Have we heard anything on whether the Lab can get and release info on how many people are using Deferred Render?
[12:18] Rex Cronon: do u realize how many mesh boobs will be messed-up because of that;)
[12:18] Whirly Fizzle: Oh noes! Serious stuff! :D :D
[12:18] Motor Loon: well, release it Qie... the more people see content not showing up pretty unless they use the feature... the less with use the features
[12:18] Motor Loon: "will"
[12:18] Erick Gregan: a
[12:18] Erick Gregan: et bien vous irais dire a ceux qui essayent de créer des activités interressante, qu'en fait, il ne sont que des cobayes
[12:18] Erick Gregan: well you go tell those who try to create activities interresting, in fact, there are as guinea pigs
[12:19] Simon Linden: Nal - I don't know, but Oz's group would probably be a better place to ask. I think he does the viewer stats
[12:19] Nalates Urriah: OK
[12:19] Tankmaster Finesmith: Oz doesnt know
[12:19] Simon Linden: Speaking of experiments ... I mentioned this last week at the Thursday user group, but this is something I worked on recently: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Featured-News/Reaching-into-Second-Life-with-Leap-Motion/ba-p/1861205
[12:20] Nalates Urriah: Your hand is famous
[12:20] Qie Niangao: hehehe
[12:20] Simon Linden: I don't know how much data we gather (or are even able to gather now) about viewer-side settings
[12:20] Whirly Fizzle: I know LL are collecting stats on how many V3 users are running in deferred
[12:20] Motor Loon: Simon... the famous hand model....
[12:20] Simon Linden waves his hand to everyone
[12:21] Rex Cronon: ?
[12:21] Motor Loon: lol
[12:21] Whirly Fizzle: & with the new GPU table changes a lot more cards have it enabled by default too
[12:21] Erick Gregan: ok, mais quand les fonctionalité normale fonctionneront normalement ?
[12:21] Erick Gregan: ok, but when the normal functionality work normally?
[12:21] Yuzuru Jewell: :D
[12:21] Qie Niangao: Oh, actually, yeah: Does Firestorm know how many of its users are in deferred? (and maybe, even, with full lighting/shadows?)
[12:21] Inara Pey: There's big money in hand modelling... for the right hands .... and the left one, probably ...
[12:21] Motor Loon: I doubt the viewer sends any info about that? tank?
[12:21] Whirly Fizzle: Hmm Tank may be able to answer that Qie. There was talk of adding stats to gather that info
[12:21] Erick Gregan: il serait mieux placé dans des serveurs digne de ce nom
[12:21] Erick Gregan: it would be better placed in worthy of the name servers
[12:21] Tankmaster Finesmith: we dont collect stats from the viewer
[12:22] Qie Niangao: oh, okay. thanks.
[12:22] Whirly Fizzle: Oz is the one to ask re Viewer 3 stats
[12:22] Tankmaster Finesmith: we may in the future, to better set defaults for graphics, but currently we dont
[12:23] Simon Linden: That's always a tough decision ... building things for a smaller set of people who have the hardware power, vs. creating things that are accessible for everyone
[12:23] Whirly Fizzle: Yeah
[12:23] Motor Loon: I'd estimate that atleast more people use deferred than you'd probably imagine °?°
[12:23] Motor Loon: ..whatever that may mean
[12:23] Tankmaster Finesmith: ^
[12:23] Rex Cronon: well. if u had a modular viewer that would be quite easy:)
[12:24] Motor Loon: keep dreaming there Rex °?°
[12:24] Tankmaster Finesmith: doesnt help theres a strong internal presser in FS to have deferred off by default all the time
[12:24] Motor Loon: I'd vote for that °?°
[12:25] Simon Linden: Speaking of radical viewer changes ... if someone has great coding skills and a lot of time ... this gizmo and SL would be amazing: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1523379957/oculus-rift-step-into-the-game
[12:25] Rex Cronon: it kind of depeneds on the programmers capabilities:)
[12:25] Tankmaster Finesmith: our next release will have the mas defaltable setting at high (ll's mas is high-ultra) and deferred will be off at high
[12:25] Whirly Fizzle: Also doesn't help that theres a fair few bugs that only happen in deferreed. :D
[12:25] Motor Loon: omg that'd be sooo fu... ing... cool'n'awesome
[12:25] Tankmaster Finesmith: theres buts in non deferred also
[12:26] Qie Niangao: Simon: pretty low res for oculus rift. like 1280 x 800 or something. spread across the whole retina, them's pretty big pixels.
[12:27] Erick Gregan: cela risque d'etre bon avec une distance de vue de 100m*
[12:27] Erick Gregan: this could be good with a viewing distance of 100m *
[12:27] Erick Gregan: cool
[12:27] Erick Gregan: pfff
[12:27] Kitto Flora: Simon, can you say anything about the ongoing problems in Wengen (for the last 10 months!) - 4 crashes per day now, and often no auto-restart.
[12:27] Simon Linden: Qie ... yep, we'll see. At a basic level, it's cool to see someone trying to bring that tech to consumers. I'm sure a few years from now there will be better ones too
[12:28] Erick Gregan: c'est evident
[12:28] Erick Gregan: it is evident
[12:28] Qie Niangao: no doubt. I'm hoping for 4K goggles. (Imagine the vertigo! :p )
[12:28] Simon Linden: Kitto - I didn't know Wengen had particular issues
[12:28] Motor Loon: I do hear use of VR headsets tends to grant headaches to the users though
[12:28] Motor Loon: just saying
[12:28] Kitto Flora: For 10 months now iyts had issues - I filed around 45 tickets on it
[12:28] Motor Loon: but the idea is beautiful
[12:29] Rex Cronon: that thing has SDK. that means your game will have to use that sdk. it won't work with just any game
[12:29] Kitto Flora: Started out as griefing - now I'm suspecting bugs with content
[12:29] Motor Loon: ey Kelly
[12:29] Motor Loon: welcome to the party
[12:29] Erick Gregan: bonjour Kelly
[12:29] Erick Gregan: Hi Kelly
[12:29] Motor Loon: perhaps Kelly will say a bit more about the fixes done to estatebans?
[12:29] Kelly Linden: hello
[12:29] Motor Loon pokes
[12:29] Rex Cronon: hello kelly
[12:29] Kelly Linden: super secret magical sssshhh
[12:30] Simon Linden: yeah, I see Wengen has a pretty steady series of crashes
[12:30] Motor Loon: aint it always °?°
[12:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[12:30] Kitto Flora: Simon - is it griefing - or some code issue? For a week + it kept coming up with scripts diabled.
[12:31] Motor Loon: "scripts diabled" ?
[12:31] Rex Cronon: i think is disabled
[12:31] Simon Linden: There's a problem occuring when it comes up and tries to get the region running - physics is being overloaded. There's a fix for this in the pipeline
[12:31] Kitto Flora: Yes - Region/Estate - Debug - Scripts disabled.
[12:32] Kitto Flora: Wow - Physics overload??? Theres almost nothing physical there
[12:32] Simon Linden: I'm not sure what is causing it, but that is common with some physics-based griefing
[12:32] Rex Cronon: try turning path-finding on and off
[12:33] Simon Linden: It's an issue with the very first frame the simulator runs ... the whole physics world is being put together and run for the first time
[12:33] Kitto Flora: Er - is it coming up with a physical griefing object still active?
[12:33] Motor Loon: that'd have no effect Rex I'm quite sure...
[12:33] Rex Cronon: u won't know until u try it...
[12:33] Simon Linden: So all collisions, etc have to be processed ... once Havok knows how the world is set up, it's much faster and more efficient.
[12:33] Jonathan Yap: I think you can turn on beacons for physics objects
[12:33] Motor Loon: too many blaim too much on PF °?°
[12:33] Whirly Fizzle: Has anyone come up with the cause of the memory allocation maxing out when a region is rebaked a lot yet? Theres still reports coming in of regions affected by that issue. A restart will fix it, but only temporarily.
[12:33] Kitto Flora: Simon - when is this fix due out on mg?
[12:34] Whirly Fizzle: Once mem allocation maxes out, the region disables rezzing
[12:34] Rex Cronon: why not consider on startup that the whole sim is an havok island?
[12:34] Motor Loon: that was fixed I belive... but no sure if the fix made it out yet?
[12:35] Kitto Flora: Wengen is Mailand. It has a WA, but most of the rest of the region is Maintenance land.
[12:35] Simon Linden: I think it's going into RC Wednesday
[12:35] Motor Loon: excellent simon
[12:35] Whirly Fizzle: Oh cool :)
[12:35] Kitto Flora: Only RC??
[12:35] Tankmaster Finesmith: for no
[12:35] Tankmaster Finesmith: w
[12:35] Motor Loon: ofcourse... it goes to RC first to be tested Kitto
[12:35] Simon Linden: Everything first goes into RC
[12:35] Lucia Nightfire: Has there been any look into a fix for the moderation crashes I've been having with SEC-1204?
[12:36] Kitto Flora: Wengen is SlServer I think - cound we get Wengen moved to RC?
[12:36] Lucia Nightfire: I'm still crashing regions 2 out of 3 send homes and/or ejects with temp bans
[12:36] Tankmaster Finesmith: what viewer are you using?
[12:37] Lucia Nightfire: not using a viewer this is LSL functions
[12:37] Lucia Nightfire: I don't use viewer moderation
[12:37] Simon Linden: There's some code that should help with that also in the RC tomorrow, Lucy
[12:37] Lucia Nightfire: what channel?
[12:37] NeoBokrug Elytis: If we've got time, I think I may have sound an issue out -- but have not filed a bug on it yet.
[12:37] Lucia Nightfire: Tigre?
[12:37] NeoBokrug Elytis: Found
[12:38] Rex Cronon: could it have something to do with the bug in phoenix that whirly talked about earlier?
[12:38] Lucia Nightfire: my issue is nto related toa viewer, its LSL moderattion functions
[12:38] Lucia Nightfire: deeded objects
[12:38] Simon Linden: Yes, it will go on LeTigre. I think you can contact support and ask to move your region to that channel
[12:39] Motor Loon: Kudos Lindens - for working on alot of good fixes these days
[12:39] Kitto Flora: How does one ask for a Mainland Region to be moved to an RC channel?
[12:40] Motor Loon: you own the whole region Kitto?
[12:40] Simon Linden: I assume with some flavor of support ticket ... I'm not sure how they will react, but I'll put a word in for Wengen to move to LeTigre
[12:40] Kitto Flora: Moto - its Mainland - LL owns it!
[12:40] Lucia Nightfire: they'll be hesitant
[12:40] Lucia Nightfire: I've tried before
[12:40] Motor Loon: I'll rephrase then... are you the only resident on the region Kitto? °?°
[12:40] Lucia Nightfire: the region has to have immediate problems with stability
[12:41] Lucia Nightfire: plus they have to see if there is room for it to be moved on RC
[12:41] Kitto Flora: TY simon - I file 4 support tickets a day on Wengen - typically - They *know* the problems there , might be glad of an early fix
[12:41] Qie Niangao: Since we have Kitto and Whirly here at the same time, I'm wondering if there's any status on SVC-8007, and whether there might be something underlying it that's also underlying the "flash" of objects on the other side of the departing sim (and maybe sim-crossing problems in general). Do we know for sure that the "flash" is purely viewer-side?
[12:42] Ima Mechanique: hi all, sorry I'm (very) late.
[12:42] Rex Cronon: hi
[12:42] Whirly Fizzle: Oh yeah, thats a srange issue - the flashing. Hmm Im sure I saw a fix for that somewhere recently. I *think* the flashing issue is viewerside.
[12:42] Kitto Flora: Moto- Wengen is the main terminus of the Snowlands Railroad which I run. Hence I see all the traffic about it being down. Its also a popular Welcome Area.
[12:43] Kitto Flora: (especially for a certain griefer)
[12:43] Rex Cronon: flashing?
[12:44] Motor Loon: I think it's viewerside... and likely most TPV's picked it up from the official viewer (the blink of content present on the region you left as you cross into a new region)
[12:44] Qie Niangao: I wondered because, not only physical vehicles get the "wrong side of the departing sim" parcel treatment, but the viewer navbar will sometimes report *being* in that opposite parcel (at least when on a phys vehicle)
[12:44] Rex Cronon: when u say flashing i imagine a camera flash
[12:44] Kitto Flora: SVC-8007 - I abandoned as LL seems not to be capable of understanding the problem.
[12:44] Motor Loon: for like half a sec you see stuff infront of you that should be behind you °?°
[12:44] Rex Cronon: oh
[12:44] Simon Linden: We were just discussing that bug this morning, and I couldn't reproduce it yesterday on a platform here
[12:44] Kitto Flora: I re-routed the track to avoid the poisioned location. We had just enough room to do that
[12:45] Whirly Fizzle: Yeah, weh you cross from one region to another, you will briefly see objects from the region you left appear on the region you enter.. The object that "flash" will be from location x,y,z on the old region and they appoear at the same x,y,z location on the new region
[12:45] Qie Niangao: ... so, my theory was that the sim may actually be *sending* that stuff to the viewer.
[12:45] Motor Loon: yeah... it only happens sometimes
[12:45] Erick Gregan: yes true.. i see also this phenomene.. lol
[12:45] Erick Gregan: yes true .. i see also this phenomenon .. lol
[12:45] Qie Niangao: (or, it could be 8-bit overflow inside the viewer's own idea of the location.)
[12:45] Rex Cronon: is likely that the viewer doesn't clean its objects list before the stuff in the new sim is drawn
[12:45] Simon Linden: It seems like a timing issue with the crossing, and something getting confused about which region those updates are for
[12:46] Simon Linden: or the geometry with the region vs. global position
[12:46] Whirly Fizzle: Reason I think its viewer side is I can repro it on FS and V3 but nmot on Phoenix
[12:46] Whirly Fizzle: *not
[12:46] NeoBokrug Elytis: Speaking of region updates, when editing the terrain texture heights in the Terrain tab of the estate menu, any changes are no longer instantly updated. You must relog to see the changes. This is using the current LL viewer and Main server (on a homestead)
[12:46] Qie Niangao: oh, that's a pretty good clue, Whirly. Thanks.
[12:46] Inara Pey: I thought Andrew was hoping his interest list code would help with the "warping" effect - allowing for the fact the code has yet to escape from a RC ...?
[12:46] Kitto Flora: That 'flash' looks like a sync error - for whatever reason location parameters are updates in the wron order in the client.
[12:46] Whirly Fizzle: Yep Neo, that ones annoying lol
[12:46] Motor Loon: Flycam has a similar bug... causing it to get its cordinates confused in simcrossings btw
[12:46] Simon Linden: Neo - do you know what server channel taht was on?
[12:46] Whirly Fizzle: Thats a viewer bug
[12:46] Motor Loon: Most super annoying when doing machienema
[12:47] NeoBokrug Elytis: Main server simon
[12:47] Motor Loon: If you can fix it Whirly, I'd mabye kiss ya... mabye...
[12:47] Kitto Flora: My guess its the problem of async pipelines in the client, and changes in the way packets are sent from the server.
[12:47] Whirly Fizzle: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-997 <--- Terrain texture changes caused by changing texture elevation ranges or terraforming can not be seen until after relog or teleporting out and back to the region
[12:48] Simon Linden: ok - there is a problem that surfaced in libOpenMetaverse with the new interest list code. The new code sends all the region terrain data when you get there, instead of constantly using the camera field of view, which is more costly
[12:48] Rex Cronon: can't viewer request an update?
[12:48] Whirly Fizzle: http://jira.phoenixviewer.com/browse/FIRE-8459 <<---terain texture bug, publily viewable
[12:48] Whirly Fizzle: *publicly
[12:49] Motor Loon: visually see changes?
[12:49] Motor Loon: or physics wise
[12:49] NeoBokrug Elytis: I wish we could at least view bugs. :C
[12:49] Motor Loon: oh nvm... its textures
[12:50] Motor Loon: agrees with Neo... jira sucks a... these days
[12:50] Simon Linden: Whirly - that bug is in the fix queue
[12:50] Whirly Fizzle: Yeah ;(
[12:50] Kitto Flora: General question - has SL started using code in servers (probably for terrain) that originated in OpenSim work - maybe via libOpenMetavers ???
[12:50] Whirly Fizzle: OOh great! Thanks Simon
[12:50] Simon Linden: No Kitto
[12:50] Tankmaster Finesmith: opensim is based on LL's server code from back when LL had that open sorced
[12:50] Kelly Linden: LL never had open source server code.
[12:50] Qie Niangao: wut
[12:51] Rex Cronon: unless somebody "liberated" it:)
[12:51] Lucia Nightfire: maybe "leaked" code, heh
[12:51] Motor Loon: You saying OpenSim is not based on legal obtained code??
[12:51] Kitto Flora: OpenSim was a reverse engineer job on how certain people thought SL servers work. They have some serious deep ... errors though
[12:51] Jonathan Yap: OpenSim is all writen from scratch I thought
[12:51] Tankmaster Finesmith: i thoguht they did about 8 years ago, around the time the viewer went open sorce
[12:51] Kelly Linden: I am making no statements on opensim at all.
[12:52] Tankmaster Finesmith: it was before i joined sl, so i could be wrong
[12:52] Motor Loon: oh I did not know that
[12:52] Simon Linden: They found out it's harder to do than you'd first think :)
[12:52] Kelly Linden: Except to say that I have never looked at its code, period.
[12:52] Rex Cronon: i think at one time even lindens(or ex-lindens) were helping with OpenSim server code. i might be wrong.
[12:52] Simon Linden: No, we don't get near that for obvious licensing issues.
[12:53] NeoBokrug Elytis: It's good to know the terrains height is an issue though. (I had to relog probably 30 times yesterday)
[12:53] Motor Loon: whatdayaknow... you learn something new every day after all °?°
[12:53] Kelly Linden: At one time there was work on creating an interoperability standard for logins and possibly even region crossing. That was, to my knowledge, all protocol oriented not code sharing.
[12:53] Kitto Flora: The odd thing is I have noticed heightfield bugs in SL from time to time that are exactly like the bugs that are built into OpenSim.
[12:53] Whirly Fizzle: Re Interest list changes on Magnum: Please can someone point Andrew at https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-1558 . Im 99.99% sure this is a viewer only bug with V1 based viewers that have backported the V3 rendering pipeline ( we have known about this bug for a long time on Phoenix, see http://jira.phoenixviewer.com/browse/PHOE-3574 (Basic shaders enabled & atmospheric shaders disabled give black "wall" in the west quadrant of regions) . But, CoolVL viewer now is getting this bug and only on Magnum regions. I just wanted to be sure it wasn't a sign of a bug that may affect V3 based viewers in another way, though I can't repro on any V3 based viwer. It just seems suspicious its now only happening for coolVL viewer users on Magnum since the interest list changes.
[12:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[12:55] Simon Linden: We can't investigate bugs that are reported against non-Linden viewers. If someone can point to bad data or other issues coming out of the server, we could look into problems on our side, but if it doesn't reproduce in our viewer, it's not possible to look at the problem on that end
[12:56] Whirly Fizzle: It doesn't rrpro on V3 no
[12:57] Rex Cronon: moment of silence:)
[12:58] Motor Loon: beautiful... sorta...
[12:58] Whirly Fizzle: Yay I killed chat :D
[12:58] Rex Cronon: lol. i though i crashed:)
[12:58] Motor Loon: well, good job guys - I'm pretty excited with all the stuff you guys are fixing these days
[12:58] Erick Gregan: a
[12:58] Erick Gregan: Simon, but I want to ask you if a solution for sim crossing with vehicles will be found ?
[12:58] Erick Gregan: Simon, goal I want to ask you if a solution for sim crossing with vehicles will be found?
[12:58] Simon Linden: That's pretty hard to figure out and do anyting server-side ... if we knew something like "this data packet has the wrong info" that triggers it, we might be able to do something, but I'd suspect it's a bug that may have been fixed in our viewer but not propagated to those others
[12:58] Ima Mechanique: for any scripters present, there's a new project build for the on going highlighting changes http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_project-1/rev/270014/index.html
[12:59] Whirly Fizzle: Yeah, I think so too Sumon, but just wanted to be sure.
[12:59] Whirly Fizzle: *Simon
[12:59] Rex Cronon: doesn't the server check packet integrity?
[12:59] Simon Linden: Erick - that's a big, long term problem. There is some work with region crossings going on that may improve it a bit
[12:59] Erick Gregan: thank you very much
[12:59] Motor Loon: oz_project Ima?
[12:59] Simon Linden: Yes it does, Rex - but good packets might have bad data
[13:00] Erick Gregan: I'm here to say that there are many people in anger because of this problem
[13:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[13:00] Ima Mechanique: yeah Motor, Oz has an autobuild whenever I update my repo ;-)
[13:00] Simon Linden: Ima - what's in that project? Is that the materials?
[13:00] Qie Niangao: There are reports that the very recent roll-out of threaded-region crossings did improve "safety" of crossings, some, even though that wasn't its primary purpose... http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Region-Crossing-A-Report-On-Experience/td-p/1871657
[13:01] Motor Loon: whats in it Ima?
[13:01] Rex Cronon: well. u do need to check data otherwise u get garbage in garbage out:)
[13:01] Motor Loon: I mean, what are your fixes?
[13:01] Ima Mechanique: no Simon, just the LSL syntax highlighting
[13:01] Simon Linden: ah, ok
[13:01] MartinRJ: region crossings are much better this week: )
[13:01] MartinRJ: Great job, Lindens
[13:01] Motor Loon: I'll say that I did 66 crossings in my sailboat the other day, with zero problems at all
[13:02] Simon Linden: The new code is definitely better. We're seeing less of the stuck TP complaints
[13:02] Motor Loon: dont stop working on it though
[13:02] Motor Loon: °?°
[13:02] Erick Gregan: a
[13:02] Erick Gregan: the main problem is in crossing a sim to another when there is a change of server ... As the sim is on the same server, there is no problem
[13:02] Kitto Flora: Heh - Snowlands line lost 6 cars in 3 days
[13:02] Qie Niangao: I thought I noticed some improvements even while it was in RC (I often cross between two neighboring LeTigres)
[13:02] Ima Mechanique: Motor, fixes? mostly it's just updating the work I did last year to the latest viewer code
[13:03] Motor Loon: ah ok Ima
[13:03] Whirly Fizzle: Has anyone seen increased reports of attachments "dropping off" avatars on TP/region crossings increase since the region crossing code was changed? The attachments are still worn and observers see them, they just don't render to yourself until you take off/rewear or relog. This isn't mesh either, its prim & sculpty attachments too. I know it does happen sometimes but it seems to have increased lately
[13:03] Simon Linden: Thanks everyone for coming today and the good talk
[13:03] Erick Gregan: merci Simon
[13:03] Erick Gregan: thank you Simon
[13:03] NeoBokrug Elytis: Yeah, the region crossing code is pretty great.
Simulator_User_Group
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