Mesh/Archive/2011-08-08

==Agenda==
#Simball and Mesh - I am an avid Simball player. Simball is a Second Life sport that can be described as a kind of Hockey on hover boards, created by Sean Martin under the Trademark Vetox. It has gained some popularity, and a lot of popularity with the Japanese who have a league of their own. How will the new simulators that mesh introduces affect this game? Can Simball benefit from Mesh ramps that the board doesn't snag on in laggy conditions, like they sometimes do on the prim ramps? [Davido Chrome]
#Deformers: Since joint offsets/bone lengths aren't going to be supported by the mesh uploader at release, and since the latest mesh viewers do not support uploading BVH files where the hip is not the root joint, does this mean there will be a window of time where no new deformers are able to be created? (And did you mean to do that?) (Bloodsong Termagant)
#Deformers, Multiple: If an avatar wears more than one rigged mesh with joint offsets/bone lengths (when we get those ::nudgenudge::), which offsets/lengths will the avatar inherit? The ones from the first worn rig? The ones from the last worn rig? The ones from all partial rigs that don't overlap (ie: arm lengths from a sweater, shin lengths from a boot)? (Bloodsong Termagant)
#Slight Scaling bug with rigged items: I first rig an item in maya to the default skeleton, scaled specifically to the default male mesh avatar, then export/import the DAE. I then wear the default shape in SL, and wear the imported mesh item; Ideally, it should be identical in proportion and position to the initial rigged model since both are based on the default, as the data is based on the parent node of the skeleton. However, when imported, each time i notice a significant difference in scale - much narrower but also slightly taller and deeper front to back. I have noticed this repeatedly, with full avatars, with pants, with shirts and jackets and with a belt. Having no idea how this is occuring, I cannot come up with a method to counter the effect. Are you aware of this and can you help me solve the issue? Just scaling the bone lengths will not solve the problem, but only scales the problem.(Maxwell Graf)
#Can you confirm pricing for uploads information for the full release? I have heard conflicting reports from several Lindens on what they will be. I have heard no price differences will occur, I have heard that it will be 150L PER PE, that it will be 150L for the initial prim and 1L for each PE after and also 150L for the first and 10L for each PE after. Please confirm this, inquiring minds want to know! (Maxwell Graf)
#Users unlucky enough to have an NVIDIA GTX460 card on an older motherboard, under Windows 7 64 bit, (are) were unable to use any kind of recent viewer (released, snowstorm, mesh) because the infamous opengl error that plagues this card persistently shows up during login when shaders are turned on, since a specific point during viewer development two months ago. (There is a thread in the forum where we note the last Snowstorm/Mesh builds without the bug). The half "solution" at JIRA CTS-657 indeed seems to be working. But this aggressive difference between these builds needs investigating. It's complex issue because it involves Nvidia drivers which are reportedly problematic, including the ones of the "solution". We cannot hold back updating our drivers because of a buggy SL viewer. (Angel Alphaville) (Comment by Tapple Gao: No; the change that was made is VWR-25931) (Sorry, but this VWR-25931 is totally irrelevant. We talk about logging in with shaders explicitly turned ON, having manually bypassed the preset slider defaults.)
#I made two fixes to the collada importer (CTS-660 and CTS-744). How do I submit them for inclusion into the viewer? (Tapple Gao) edit: Prep said he'd look at them
#Are we there yet?! Are you expecting mesh to roll out to the rest of the grid this week or next? [Vivienne Daguerre]
#Is there any difference between the server code of agni and aditi? I uploaded a model successful after 3 attempts to aditi, but can't get it uploaded to agni for 3 days now, it always ends with a crash whenever the viewer starts to calculate the PE and the other metrics (on Mac, which is still crashing a lot, btw) [Mikki Miles]
#About upload fees: in case of models we're only testing, the beta grid is the place to go to avoid costs. Is this a permanent option? (i hope so) [Bunnie Mills]
# Is Linden Lab still planning to go ahead and charge "streaming cost" for regular prims making the use of the new physics engine features and linking with mesh objects very dangerous for the landowners? [Latif Khalifa]
#Who will change the meeting location info in the Tweet and Wiki Main User Group page? Nalates U
# According to https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/CTS-608 we must supply all bones when we want to rig a mesh. Is this still true ? Or can we expect the importer to accept riggs with only the relevant bones (for the actual rigged mesh) included ? (Gaia Clary)
# I noticed that weight import raises the upload fee AND the PE. Why is PE affected by the weights ? (Gaia Clary)
# How many more changes can we expect in the way pe is figured? (eithne Blaylock)
# is the importer's GUI now stable (from its appearance) (so we can redo the importer tutorials) ? (Gaia Clary)
# I was told that size affects the PE of an object. So a 100 poly mesh at 1m^3 is less than one at 64m^3. Is this true? Will this also affect upload costs if true? (Feynt Mistral)
==Meeting Notes==
==Attendees List==
*ac14 Hutson (ac14.hutson)
*Acheron Gloom (acheron.gloom)
*Angel (angel.alphaville)
*Asha (ashasekayi.ra)
*bigjr Slade (bigjr.slade)
*Bloodsong Termagant (bloodsong.termagant)
*Bunnie Mills (bunnie.mills)
*Cale Flanagan (cale.flanagan)
*Charlie (charlar.linden)
*dahlia1337 resident (dahlia.trimble)
*DanielRavenNest Ni (danielravennest.ni)
*draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam)
*E (eithne.blaylock)
*Eleanora Newell (eleanora.newell)
*Feynt Mistral (feynt.mistral)
*Gaia Clary (gaia.clary)
*gerardo Verino (gerardo.verino)
*Graham Dartmouth (graham.dartmouth)
*awesome (jana.drezelan)
*Jeffbot 2.2 (jeffbot.2.2)
*Kadah (kadah.coba)
*Latif Khalifa (latif.khalifa)
*Maniac (maniac.choche)
*Marika (marika.dagostino)
*MaxTux Wonder (maxtux.wonder)
*Mikki Miles (mikki.miles)
*Nal (nalates.urriah)
*Nyx Linden (nyx.linden)
*oobscure (opensource.obscure)
*Prep Linden (prep.linden)
*Racush (racush.cheeky)
*Renn Yifu (renn.yifu)
*davep (runitai.linden)
*Rusalka Writer (rusalka.writer)
*Skygirl Kline (skygirl.kline)
*Tapple Gao (tapple.gao)
*Vivienne Daguerre (vivienne.daguerre)
*Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar)
*Jason York (york.jessop)
*Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)
==Transcript for Monday August 8, 2011==
[11:59]	Rusalka Writer 	Here comes the tree with his prim again...
[11:59]	Maniac (maniac.choche) 	hahah
[11:59]	Tapple Gao 	that would make a great hat racush
[11:59]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	hey, don't diss on prims!
[11:59]	Maniac (maniac.choche) 	hello Charlar :)
[11:59]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	hi all
[11:59]	Rusalka Writer 	We might fill the sim. Next week we should meet in a corner.
[12:00]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	Just realized we might have that problem
[12:00]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	my bad
[12:00]	Rusalka Writer 	I figured this one would be popular.
[12:00]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	If it is a problem we can walk over.
[12:00]	Jason York (york.jessop) 	Hi everyone, nice turnout :)
[12:00]	Rusalka Writer 	Or crash.
[12:00]	Rusalka Writer 	Aloha.
[12:00]	Racush (racush.cheeky) 	hai
[12:01]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	it's a good perf test
[12:01]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Asha waves. "Hi everyone"
[12:01]	Rusalka Writer 	That sounds like famous last words.
[12:01]	Maniac (maniac.choche) 	Hey Ash :)
[12:01]	Prep Linden 	yo folks
[12:01]	Maniac (maniac.choche) 	yoo
[12:01]	Rusalka Writer 	Good performance test = young man in fast car saying "Watch this!"
[12:01]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Hello Ra! I am awake.
[12:01]	Acheron Gloom 	Oops, didn't mean to use in-world voice :)
[12:02]	Tapple Gao 	hi elenora
[12:02]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	hehe good to see it Yuzuru ^^
[12:02]	Tapple Gao 	hi prep
[12:02]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) 	what is this about haveing to go through some instructions to be able to up load
[12:02]	Rusalka Writer 	Aloha.
[12:02]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	about redy to start?
[12:02]	Tapple Gao 	you gotta have a test about ip paraded before you before you can upload
[12:02]	Maniac (maniac.choche) 	i feel ready :)
[12:03]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) 	link?
[12:03]	Tapple Gao 	it's in the upload window if you havn't taken it yet
[12:03]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) 	upload window is non functional for my os builds
[12:03]	Eleanora Newell 	could someone who uses kirsten's please im me for a minute? i have no menus
[12:03]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	getting started
[12:04]	Tapple Gao 	um, sec
[12:04]	Tapple Gao 	hmm. it doesn't show in mine since I already took it
[12:04]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	1) Simball and Mesh - I am an avid Simball player. Simball is a Second Life sport that can be described as a kind of Hockey on hover boards, created by Sean Martin under the Trademark Vetox. It has gained some popularity, and a lot of popularity with the Japanese who have a league of their own. How will the new simulators that mesh introduces affect this game? Can Simball benefit from Mesh ramps that the board doesn't snag on in laggy conditions, like they sometimes do on the prim ramps? [Davido Chrome]
[12:04]	E (eithne.blaylock) 	you can access it from your dashboard as well
[12:04]	Cale Flanagan 	just look into your account
[12:04]	Tapple Gao 	you can use my builds; they have upload working
[12:05]	Nyx Linden 	we don't know of anything that should cause any immediate effects, though if you notice any bugs let us know
[12:05]	Tapple Gao 	well, upload with bounding box for physics
[12:05]	Rusalka Writer 	Feynt!
[12:05]	Feynt Mistral 	Morning folks.
[12:05]	Nyx Linden 	in the end the game could be configured to use larger, unbroken ramps
[12:05]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Heya Feynt
[12:05]	Nyx Linden 	but I have not played simball myself :)
[12:06]	Tapple Gao 	can use these syms to test the game
[12:06]	Rusalka Writer 	Aloha. Long time, no see, and apologies for interrupting the agenda.
[12:06]	Tapple Gao 	are they all running havox 2010 nyx?
[12:06]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	alright, let's move on
[12:06]	Feynt Mistral 	Been busy with work. But hey, no work means I can attend the office hour again.
[12:06]	Rusalka Writer 	Win.
[12:07]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	2) Deformers: Since joint offsets/bone lengths aren't going to be supported by the mesh uploader at release, and since the latest mesh viewers do not support uploading BVH files where the hip is not the root joint, does this mean there will be a window of time where no new deformers are able to be created? (And did you mean to do that?) (Bloodsong Termagant)
[12:07]	Prep Linden 	Joint offsets are in release 1. A number of content authors have already created rigs that alter the default avatars pelvis position as well as any other joint position. Bone scaling will however not be in release 1.
[12:07]	Feynt Mistral 	Woot.
[12:08]	Rusalka Writer 	It's working for me, except for the Pelvic Z Offset, of course.
[12:08]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	next,
[12:08]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	3) Deformers, Multiple: If an avatar wears more than one rigged mesh with joint offsets/bone lengths (when we get those ::nudgenudge::), which offsets/lengths will the avatar inherit? The ones from the first worn rig? The ones from the last worn rig? The ones from all partial rigs that don't overlap (ie: arm lengths from a sweater, shin lengths from a boot)? (Bloodsong Termagant)
[12:08]	Prep Linden 	rusalka : I have some feedback for you about your assets - in a little bit!
[12:08]	Rusalka Writer 	Groovy.
[12:08]	Prep Linden 	An avatar can only wear one attachment with joint offsets - so if you attach a rig that has any of it's joint offsets and then
[12:09]	Rusalka Writer 	Oy.
[12:09]	Feynt Mistral 	Hmm, which... poses problems for custom avatars wearing custom clothing I think.
[12:09]	Feynt Mistral 	As attachments of course.
[12:09]	Prep Linden 	It is a limitation of the current system, atm.
[12:10]	Feynt Mistral 	Feynt Mistral nods
[12:10]	Rusalka Writer 	Unless there's some way to make one item dominant.
[12:10]	Feynt Mistral 	Any way to temporarily flag something to not override offsets?
[12:10]	Tapple Gao 	wear it last
[12:10]	Maniac (maniac.choche) 	wear it last :)
[12:11]	Rusalka Writer 	Customer instructions just got more complicated.
[12:11]	Eleanora Newell 	(came back in firestorm, if whoever im'd me for kirsten's would again)
[12:11]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	I was about to say wouldn't the clothing use the same offsets.
[12:11]	Maniac (maniac.choche) 	i don't envy the new users of SL :)
[12:11]	Prep Linden 	I do it have in my queue to expand the joint logic to allow for more then one attachment that contain offsets.
[12:12]	Feynt Mistral 	As long as it will at some point be addressed.
[12:12]	Prep Linden 	So hopefully sooner rather than later.
[12:12]	Prep Linden 	yup, yup.
[12:12]	Rusalka Writer 	Hmmm... worked.
[12:12]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	4) Slight Scaling bug with rigged items: I first rig an item in maya to the default skeleton, scaled specifically to the default male mesh avatar, then export/import the DAE. I then wear the default shape in SL, and wear the imported mesh item; Ideally, it should be identical in proportion and position to the initial rigged model since both are based on the default, as the data is based on the parent node of the skeleton. However, when imported, each time i notice a significant difference in scale - much narrower but also slightly taller and deeper front to back. I have noticed this repeatedly, with full avatars, with pants, with shirts and jackets and with a belt. Having no idea how this is occuring, I cannot come up with a method to counter the effect. Are you aware of this and can you help me solve the issue? Just scaling the bone lengths will not solve the problem, but only scales the problem.(Maxwell Graf)
[12:12]	Feynt Mistral 	Honestly a stopgap "Ignore joint offsets" option would be fine.
[12:12]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	This may take a minute to read
[12:13]	Rusalka Writer 	TL;DR : )
[12:13]	Feynt Mistral 	lawl
[12:13]	Jason York (york.jessop) 	Hmm using OPENCollada?
[12:13]	Rusalka Writer 	Is it a bone weighting problem?
[12:14]	draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam)	looks like a bone length issue
[12:14]	Prep Linden 	Maxwell: we acutally scale bone, atm.
[12:14]	Prep Linden 	Maxwell: I'll need your asset to investigate this one. So open a Jira and attach/email me your .dae.
[12:14]	Feynt Mistral 	I think we'd need to get length/offset working in full before we can really get that one troubleshot.
[12:15]	Prep Linden 	feynt: that asset will help get scaling in the importer sooner rather than later ;-)
[12:15]	Feynt Mistral 	No argument there.
[12:15]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	5) Can you confirm pricing for uploads information for the full release? I have heard conflicting reports from several Lindens on what they will be. I have heard no price differences will occur, I have heard that it will be 150L PER PE, that it will be 150L for the initial prim and 1L for each PE after and also 150L for the first and 10L for each PE after. Please confirm this, inquiring minds want to know! (Maxwell Graf)
[12:16]	Rusalka Writer 	So do cheap minds.
[12:16]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	I can't make a final comment on the initial prices when we have mesh fully released. That said...
[12:16]	Feynt Mistral 	I prefer the term "frugal"
[12:16]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	The base price will go up.
[12:17]	Graham Dartmouth 	or 'skint'
[12:17]	Rusalka Writer 	I'm Scottish; I'm cheap.
[12:17]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	Not to $150
[12:17]	Jason York (york.jessop) 	Will the scaling price also go up?
[12:17]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	nice
[12:17]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	lower, just can't say yet how much
[12:17]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	Currently I don't see the scaling going up at all
[12:17]	Jason York (york.jessop) 	Great news, thanks
[12:17]	Rusalka Writer 	Free to all those of us to whom you owe a pony.
[12:17]	Graham Dartmouth 	can we have something a little better like 'significantly lower'?
[12:18]	Feynt Mistral 	I'm owed two ponies!
[12:18]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	We will be watching your comments and uploads carefully; we may adjust (read: lower) things in the future.
[12:18]	Jason York (york.jessop) 	So whatever the price is at full roll out will be the highest it will ever be?
[12:18]	Feynt Mistral 	I think I prefer prices to be higher initially and lowered as the system under full load allows.
[12:19]	MaxTux Wonder 	so we must to hurry and upload all the stuff we have, lol
[12:19]	Feynt Mistral 	Provided it DOES lower. >)
[12:19]	Rusalka Writer 	Exactly.
[12:19]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	i think it's pretty safe to say that we don't _want_ to raise prices, evar.
[12:19]	MaxTux Wonder 	too late charlie, i'm uploading right now
[12:20]	Maniac (maniac.choche) 	:))
[12:20]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	go for it MaxTux
[12:20]	Latif Khalifa 	you are doing it right now with charging streaming cost for regular prims. in fact you are increasing it 10 fold
[12:20]	Vivienne Daguerre 	Vivienne Daguerre laughs
[12:20]	Vivienne Daguerre 	I have been a mesh uploading machine! :P
[12:20]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	great, that's what we want you all to do.
[12:20]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	ok, ready to move on?
[12:20]	Acheron Gloom 	The only time I've seen a significant increase
[12:20]	Acheron Gloom 	nvm
[12:21]	Acheron Gloom 	Yes, ready to move on :>
[12:21]	Vivienne Daguerre 	I didn't put it on the agenda, but I noticed that one PE meshes are now possible!! Yay! and Thanks!!
[12:21]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	6) Users unlucky enough to have an NVIDIA GTX460 card on an older motherboard, under Windows 7 64 bit, (are) were unable to use any kind of recent viewer (released, snowstorm, mesh) because the infamous opengl error that plagues this card persistently shows up during login when shaders are turned on, since a specific point during viewer development two months ago. (There is a thread in the forum where we note the last Snowstorm/Mesh builds without the bug). The half "solution" at JIRA CTS-657 indeed seems to be working. But this aggressive difference between these builds needs investigating. It's complex issue because it involves Nvidia drivers which are reportedly problematic, including the ones of the "solution". We cannot hold back updating our drivers because of a buggy SL viewer. (Angel Alphaville) (Comment by Tapple Gao: No; the change that was made is VWR-25931) (Sorry, but this VWR-25931 is totally irrelevant. We talk about logging in with shaders explicitly turned ON, having manually bypassed the pr
[12:21]	Jeffbot 2.2 	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/cts-657
[12:21]	Jeffbot 2.2 	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/vwr-25931)
[12:21]	Jeffbot 2.2 	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/vwr-25931
[12:21]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	oh god what a huge paragraph (embarassing)
[12:21]	Jason York (york.jessop) 	It got cut off at the end hehe
[12:22]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	...bypassed the preset slider defaults.)
[12:22]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	you all are a typy bunch
[12:22]	davep (runitai.linden) 	actually working on that right now
[12:22]	Jason York (york.jessop) 	heh
[12:22]	Feynt Mistral 	Basically recent nVidia drivers for a certain GeForce card broke viewer 2 support.
[12:22]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	it s very weird issue
[12:22]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	hard to reproduce : (
[12:22]	Rusalka Writer 	I'm a novelist and can't get through that.
[12:22]	Feynt Mistral 	Simple answer, don't use those drivers.
[12:22]	davep (runitai.linden) 	the major change in the last release was to not use shaders anywhere -- one of the reports I got was showing an assertion with Debug GL turned on
[12:22]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	it s madness with these cards
[12:22]	Rusalka Writer 	Good answer.
[12:22]	Skygirl Kline 	I just ordered a 460 today grr
[12:23]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	I mean not second life specific
[12:23]	Jason York (york.jessop) 	TL:DR version > Nvidia driver broke
[12:23]	davep (runitai.linden) 	if you can run with Debug GL on and generate crash reports that way, it will help debug
[12:23]	Tapple Gao 	The region is full, and my friend wants in. can we move to the corner?
[12:23]	Feynt Mistral 	"Doctor, doctor, it hurts when I do this!" "Then don't do that!"
[12:23]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	I found the builds that made the difference, if that is of help
[12:23]	davep (runitai.linden) 	er, I misspoke, major change not use fixed function anywhere
[12:23]	Vivienne Daguerre 	I can slide us over
[12:23]	davep (runitai.linden) 	use shaders everywhere (even the UI)
[12:23]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	sooner or later we will have to upgrade the drivers, soo far these 260.99 seem to work, but don t trust them
[12:23]	Rusalka Writer 	I had to buy a new computer for mesh. : |
[12:24]	Maniac (maniac.choche) 	AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGHHHH!!!!!! <:o
[12:24]	Cale Flanagan 	i feel unslided
[12:24]	Marika (marika.dagostino) 	i feel abandoned ..
[12:24]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	wait for us!
[12:24]	Maniac (maniac.choche) 	hahaha me too :)
[12:24]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	O.o
[12:24]	Skygirl Kline 	lol
[12:25]	Skygirl Kline 	fun
[12:25]	Kadah (kadah.coba) 	Oh and now you move it >_>
[12:25]	E (eithne.blaylock) 	i can run it here but not there
[12:25]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	sorry for that.
[12:25]	Marika (marika.dagostino) 	*:::* WELCOME BACK *:::*
[12:25]	Kadah (kadah.coba) 	<_<
[12:25]	Tapple Gao 	a little further?
[12:25]	davep (runitai.linden) 	anyway, I'm in the middle of overhauling the graphics engine to play nicer with modern cards -- this is a top priority, so please run with Debug GL on if you're experiencing crashes
[12:25]	Kadah (kadah.coba) 	And is my name "Evil the Cat" for anyone else?
[12:25]	davep (runitai.linden) 	develop->rendering->Debug GL
[12:25]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	ok
[12:25]	Vivienne Daguerre 	sorry, is this close enough for your friend to hear the chat Tapple?
[12:25]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) 	hey Kadah
[12:26]	Rusalka Writer 	On.
[12:26]	Cale Flanagan 	maybe thats why i have strange fullsimshadows flickering?
[12:26]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	the thing is no logs are generated with that opengl error,
[12:26]	Kadah (kadah.coba) 	Hay Wolfpup
[12:26]	draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam)	thats amazing news runitai
[12:26]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	ok, moving on
[12:26]	Rusalka Writer 	I crash but never get a crash reporter any more.
[12:26]	Rusalka Writer 	I'll crash some more.
[12:26]	Kadah (kadah.coba) 	What news?
[12:26]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	7) I made two fixes to the collada importer (CTS-660 and CTS-744). How do I submit them for inclusion into the viewer? (Tapple Gao) edit: Prep said he'd look at them
[12:26]	Nyx Linden 	you attach the patches and bring them up here. Thanks!
[12:26]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	moving on...
[12:27]	Mikki Miles 	crash, was that my cue?
[12:27]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	8) Are we there yet?! Are you expecting mesh to roll out to the rest of the grid this week or next? [Vivienne Daguerre]
[12:27]	Feynt Mistral 	Yes, are we there yet?
[12:27]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	we're at about 30% of the grid now
[12:27]	Feynt Mistral 	Woo
[12:27]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	:B```
[12:27]	Cale Flanagan 	are the benches there yet?
[12:27]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) 	prep im not that type of person :p
[12:28]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	we'll probably let that bake for a week.
[12:28]	Graham Dartmouth 	when do we expect full deploy?
[12:28]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	We are planning on 100% of agni before the end of August
[12:28]	Feynt Mistral 	Sweet
[12:28]	Graham Dartmouth 	great, thank you
[12:28]	awesome (jana.drezelan) 	niiiceee
[12:28]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	^^
[12:28]	Rusalka Writer 	I crashed.
[12:28]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	And a release of the viewer with mesh support along the same timeframe
[12:29]	Vivienne Daguerre 	grins
[12:29]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	We really are ALMOST there
[12:29]	Vivienne Daguerre 	woohoo!
[12:29]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	viv
[12:29]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) 	mesh is functional in viewer-development now
[12:29]	Vivienne Daguerre 	Woo-hoo-hoo!!
[12:29]	Rusalka Writer 	Crashed and now all the mesh is invisible.
[12:30]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) 	Second Life 2.8.4 (112162205) Aug 4 2011 23:18:58 (Second Life Developer) <- built over the weekend
[12:30]	Feynt Mistral 	I proclaim hijinx on the lack of 192m^3 prims, which I wanted for one of my builds. >D
[12:30]	Kadah (kadah.coba) 	Its Viewer 3.0 now
[12:30]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	snowstorm too
[12:30]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	( obviously)
[12:30]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	next?
[12:30]	Feynt Mistral 	Next.
[12:30]	draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam)	(Second Life 3.0.1 (237980) Aug 8 2011 08:27:44 (Second Life Development))
[12:30]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	9) Is there any difference between the server code of agni and aditi? I uploaded a model successful after 3 attempts to aditi, but can't get it uploaded to agni for 3 days now, it always ends with a crash whenever the viewer starts to calculate the PE and the other metrics (on Mac, which is still crashing a lot, btw) [Mikki Miles]
[12:30]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) 	viewer development is actualy @ 3.0.1 when i do the build tonight
[12:31]	Nyx Linden 	the code released on agni should be fairly stable code, while we're constantly testing fixes and advances on aditi
[12:32]	Nyx Linden 	If you can consistently reproduce a crash, please do send us instructions on how to reproduce it!
[12:32]	Mikki Miles 	so I should wait for the advances coming to agni...
[12:32]	Rusalka Writer 	Am back, with mesh this time.
[12:32]	Mikki Miles 	i can send you the model
[12:32]	Nyx Linden 	the differences at this time should be minor between the grids
[12:33]	Nyx Linden 	please file a jira and send in the model so we know how to reproduce your issue :)
[12:33]	Mikki Miles 	ok
[12:33]	Rusalka Writer 	Difficult morning here.
[12:33]	bigjr Slade 	Next 25.) where is my pony *gg
[12:33]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	next.
[12:33]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	10) About upload fees: in case of models we're only testing, the beta grid is the place to go to avoid costs. Is this a permanent option? (i hope so) [Bunnie Mills]
[12:33]	Cale Flanagan 	me, me me, i know it....
[12:33]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	yes, Bunnie
[12:33]	Bunnie Mills 	silly question.. but just to make sure : P
[12:33]	Cale Flanagan 	like last meeting and that before, YES
[12:34]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	Unless we think of something easier/better.
[12:34]	Rusalka Writer 	BTW, the slide we all did overrrode my Pelvic Z Offset again.
[12:34]	Bunnie Mills 	ok thanks
[12:34]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	next
[12:34]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	11) Is Linden Lab still planning to go ahead and charge "streaming cost" for regular prims making the use of the new physics engine features and linking with mesh objects very dangerous for the landowners? [Latif Khalifa]
[12:35]	Feynt Mistral 	Feynt Mistral inserts a comma in there for ease of reading.
[12:36]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	We are applying PE calculations to objects that make use of our new physics functions.
[12:36]	Latif Khalifa 	I'm asking specifically about the streaming cost of regular prims.
[12:37]	Latif Khalifa 	(a non existing cost mind you, entirely ficticious)
[12:37]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	If a prim uses new physics functionality, we will calculate PE based on our resource weights.
[12:37]	Tapple Gao 	woah. hi sai
[12:37]	davep (runitai.linden) 	"streaming cost" is a misnomer, it's actually a "geometry cost" in this context
[12:38]	Kadah (kadah.coba) 	There seems to be a lot of those.
[12:38]	Latif Khalifa 	it does not have any relation with server resources
[12:38]	Acheron Gloom 	As far as I know, unless you're using really really inefficient prims, you should be fine either way... I've actually been using convex hulls to drop my PE in half on regular prims.
[12:38]	Cale Flanagan 	can i have a paybackoption if i use regular prims?
[12:38]	Latif Khalifa 	but again, is the plan still to go ahead and charge this ficticious cost making accidental linkage with mesh increae your prim usage 10 fold?
[12:39]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) 	so in a sence we could now make a normal vhicle and use say a squished sphere as physics control
[12:39]	Rusalka Writer 	LL absorbs a lot of costs to make SL function (like ARC). Scripting mesh costs would be a good one to absorb.
[12:39]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) 	and set it to the new physics settings?
[12:39]	Latif Khalifa 	My question is still about "streaming cost" of regular prims which 10 doubles prim usage
[12:39]	Acheron Gloom 	a squished sphere is pretty bad, so I don't know why you would want to, but you could.
[12:39]	Cale Flanagan 	wasnt there already scripting cost in planning like memorypools?
[12:40]	Eleanora Newell 	(gaia, please im me)
[12:40]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	ok, we have 6 more items, and only 20 minutes to get there. so I need to move on.
[12:40]	dahlia1337 resident (dahlia.trimble) 	Rosalka, ARC doesnt cost LL™ anything, the cost is all viewer side
[12:40]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	move on
[12:40]	Latif Khalifa 	Charlar, so you don't want to answer the question?
[12:41]	Rusalka Writer 	Where is ARC, anyway?
[12:41]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	12) Who will change the meeting location info in the Tweet and Wiki Main User Group page? Nalates U
[12:41]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	Nalates - my bad, I'll get them updated today.
[12:41]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Its been answer so many times it is boring Latif.
[12:41]	davep (runitai.linden) 	Rusalka: Advanced->Performance Tools
[12:41]	Acheron Gloom 	I agree with Nalates.
[12:41]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	Latif, we've talked about this alot. Im not sure what else there is to say.
[12:41]	Rusalka Writer 	No, I mean for mesh.
[12:41]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) 	advanced>rendering tools>show rendering costs
[12:41]	Kadah (kadah.coba) 	Yeah, I ended up in the wrong place cause it was still listing wrong on the wiki :(
[12:41]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	sry Kadah
[12:42]	Nyx Linden 	ARC needs to be updated for mesh, it is not accurate at all currently
[12:42]	Rusalka Writer 	I noticed.
[12:42]	Kadah (kadah.coba) 	Plus the random group requirment and then full sim didnt help either :(
[12:42]	Kadah (kadah.coba) 	Either the group access req should be lifted for the UG, or it should be mentioned on the wiki
[12:42]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	13) According to https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/CTS-608 we must supply all bones when we want to rig a mesh. Is this still true ? Or can we expect the importer to accept riggs with only the relevant bones (for the actual rigged mesh) included ? (Gaia Clary)
[12:43]	Prep Linden 	The importer does allow for the upload of rigs that are comprised of only relevant joints (partial joint arrays). The fix for sh-2047 addressed this btw.
[12:43]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Yea, that keeps going back and forth.
[12:43]	Gaia Clary 	as asha says... every day its different...
[12:43]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	kadah - you are correct. We'll be pulling the group req pretty soon.
[12:44]	Gaia Clary 	so is it worth a jira ?
[12:44]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Good, that group thing going will make it easier.
[12:45]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	next ...
[12:45]	davep (runitai.linden) 	Rusalka: you're looking awfully Bjork today
[12:45]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	14) I noticed that weight import raises the upload fee AND the PE. Why is PE affected by the weights ? (Gaia Clary)
[12:45]	Rusalka Writer 	Ah, hadn't thought of her, but yes. Better than Lady Gaga.
[12:45]	Nyx Linden 	this is referring to bone weighting data, correct?
[12:45]	Gaia Clary 	yes
[12:45]	Nyx Linden 	it adds more data we have to send over the network, which is why it gets more expensive
[12:46]	Gaia Clary 	but the PE ... why do you send weighting data to the viewers ?
[12:46]	Gaia Clary 	when the mesh is static on the ground ?
[12:46]	Nyx Linden 	its stored in the mesh asset that gets downloaded
[12:46]	Nyx Linden 	whether its worn or not
[12:46]	Gaia Clary 	can we expect rigged objects ... at any time soon ;-) ?
[12:47]	Feynt Mistral 	If you upload it with weighting, you should be wearing it. If it's just going to be on the ground, why not just upload it without weighting?
[12:47]	Nyx Linden 	non-avatar rigged objects I assume you mean? not immediately though its an interesting project :)
[12:47]	Gaia Clary 	for exampke when i want to show my mesh in a shop...
[12:47]	MaxTux Wonder 	thats would be very cool, rigged stuff, with our own bones that walk on the ground
[12:47]	Gaia Clary 	should i then upload it twice ?
[12:47]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	or to rez it to edit it
[12:47]	Gaia Clary 	once with weighitng once without ?
[12:47]	Racush (racush.cheeky) 	sounds like a good idea to import a static version thats posed Gaia
[12:48]	Feynt Mistral 	Upload it twice or accept that the one you place out for viewing is going to cost more prims.
[12:48]	davep (runitai.linden) 	if you want a cheap, good looking preview item, upload it posed with baked lighting and no normals
[12:48]	davep (runitai.linden) 	and make it fullbright
[12:49]	davep (runitai.linden) 	(no normals will reduce the PE)
[12:49]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) 	if we can change the bones then true 'tinies' could be made
[12:49]	Gaia Clary 	i was just wondering why it affects PE at all... so my initial quzestion was answered ;-)
[12:49]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	no normals ??
[12:49]	Feynt Mistral 	With regards to true tinies, see earlier answers regarding bone length/offsets.
[12:49]	Prep Linden 	wolfpup: you can use joint offsets to reposition bones .
[12:49]	Bunnie Mills 	you mean 0 crease ?
[12:49]	Prep Linden 	that'll give you a tiny
[12:49]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	you mean flat faces
[12:50]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	ok, need to move on...
[12:50]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	sry
[12:50]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	15) How many more changes can we expect in the way pe is figured? (eithne Blaylock)
[12:50]	dahlia1337 resident (dahlia.trimble) 	not using normals reduce streaming cost?
[12:50]	davep (runitai.linden) 	dahlia: right, but it won't light properly, so you'll need to make it fullbright
[12:50]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Smooth normals gives a cheaper download PE than flat.
[12:51]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	We're feeling pretty good with it right now, but we will always be looking for additional ways to reduce it based on load that we see in production.
[12:51]	dahlia1337 resident (dahlia.trimble) 	smooth is cheaper? I would have thought the opposite
[12:51]	davep (runitai.linden) 	smooth makes it easier to share data between triangles
[12:51]	Gaia Clary 	no flat is more expensive because you must supply much more vertices to the renderer as far as i understand.
[12:51]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	we do not expect to raise it - and are aware of how problematic that would be. :-)
[12:51]	awesome (jana.drezelan) 	normals for static object would be nice.. solving problems with bump it will do.. (yoda voice)
[12:51]	Kadah (kadah.coba) 	Make is understandable instead of a mystry magic number maybe?
[12:52]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	kadah, there are wiki docs that explain it's calc.
[12:52]	dahlia1337 resident (dahlia.trimble) 	but triangles only need 1 normal
[12:52]	Feynt Mistral 	It's still a magical equation, Charlie. >D
[12:52]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	We're also looking at showing the source weights more prominently soon.
[12:52]	Gaia Clary 	Charlar: the wikis docs are now correct ?
[12:52]	davep (runitai.linden) 	davep is not a magician.
[12:52]	Kadah (kadah.coba) 	I've read them many times over the life of the project, I'm still lost
[12:52]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	there is no magic here. Unless you're roleplaying
[12:52]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Vertex normals not face
[12:53]	Bloodsong Termagant 	there's voodoo in scripting.
[12:53]	Nyx Linden 	its complicated, not magical. there's a slight difference :)
[12:53]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	calc of PE is pretty clear, and simple
[12:53]	Feynt Mistral 	Dahlia, the normals are per vertex, per triangle. So if a vertex is part of three triangles, and it's flat normalized, that one vertex will count three times.
[12:53]	Kadah (kadah.coba) 	Anyone else less versed on PE is going to be safe in assuming its a near random number
[12:53]	Gaia Clary 	are the wiki docs now correct ?
[12:53]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	calc of weights does fall into the more complex
[12:53]	Feynt Mistral 	Next?
[12:54]	dahlia1337 resident (dahlia.trimble) 	Ferget, sure, but its only 1 normal per triangle and 1 index per vertex
[12:54]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	yep, thanks Feynt
[12:54]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	16) is the importer's GUI now stable (from its appearance) (so we can redo the importer tutorials) ? (Gaia Clary)
[12:54]	dahlia1337 resident (dahlia.trimble) 	s/Ferget/Feynt
[12:55]	Feynt Mistral 	regexp = <3
[12:55]	Nyx Linden 	define stable ;)
[12:55]	Feynt Mistral 	I believe stable as in, not changing anymore.
[12:55]	Rusalka Writer 	Good answer.
[12:55]	Gaia Clary 	can be recognized in 2 months as still relevant tutorial .;-)
[12:55]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	it's stable right now... but we're going to try and make it better pretty soon. Sorry for making the tutorials tougher.
[12:55]	DanielRavenNest Ni 	"Reached final form for mesh release"
[12:55]	Nyx Linden 	it should not change for our initial release, but those who have been watching mesh-dev closely have seen we're going to do some tweaks post-release
[12:56]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	I uploaded my tutorial on this GUI.
[12:56]	bigjr Slade 	ask Mesh release :)
[12:56]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	and those will be coming pretty soon.
[12:56]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Please don't change it.
[12:56]	Feynt Mistral 	>D
[12:56]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	existing tutorials will likely still be useful.
[12:56]	Kadah (kadah.coba) 	I kept crashing on mesh-dev every time I opened local chat
[12:56]	Gaia Clary 	lol, id say please change it. i gave you 15 issues with the current GUI ;-)
[12:56]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	lol
[12:57]	Rusalka Writer 	Post them all and we'll vote.
[12:57]	Gaia Clary 	its in the jira sonce 7 weeks.
[12:57]	Feynt Mistral 	Next!
[12:57]	Gaia Clary 	since
[12:57]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	She already has a jira.
[12:57]	Feynt Mistral 	>D
[12:57]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	OK, 2 minutes! I have to move on.
[12:57]	Nyx Linden 	I think I responded to many of them and asked that they were broken down into more separate-able tasks please :)
[12:57]	Gaia Clary 	yes ;-)
[12:57]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	17) I was told that size affects the PE of an object. So a 100 poly mesh at 1m^3 is less than one at 64m^3. Is this true? Will this also affect upload costs if true? (Feynt Mistral)
[12:58]	Feynt Mistral 	100 polys is arbitrary, could be replaced with 1000 or 10 000
[12:58]	Nyx Linden 	some of the weights that feed into the final PE cost are scale-dependent
[12:58]	Nyx Linden 	but the upload fee should not be scale-dependent
[12:59]	Prep Linden 	Ok, gotta run folks - have a good one!
[12:59]	Rusalka Writer 	It's not. I tried that.
[12:59]	bigjr Slade 	now 25) where is my pony?????????????
[12:59]	Feynt Mistral 	Why would PE be affected by size?
[12:59]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Adios Prep
[12:59]	Rusalka Writer 	Aloha!
[12:59]	oobscure (opensource.obscure) 	bye Prep !
[12:59]	Feynt Mistral 	Night.
[12:59]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	DD has good explanations of the scaling costs in the Mesh section of the forum.
[12:59]	Renn Yifu 	have fun prep. ^^ and thx a lot
[12:59]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	See you next week!
[12:59]	DanielRavenNest Ni 	DanielRavenNest Ni waves hi to everyone from the fresh Viewer 3.0.1
[12:59]	Nyx Linden 	Feynt - you should read our docs on what goes into PE, we go into good detail as to why larger objects cost us more :)
[12:59]	Rusalka Writer 	V3?
[12:59]	DanielRavenNest Ni 	Yes
[12:59]	Rusalka Writer 	Quoi?
[12:59]	ac14 Hutson 	let me just throw it out there. It should not be affected by size. your just going to confuse pepole. if it has to do with phyisys usage just make it cost more PE. dont punish good phyiscs shapes just because they are bigger.
[13:00]	Bunnie Mills 	thanks LL, byebye everyone
[13:00]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) 	Wolfpup < will be on 3.0.1 tomarrow after builds overnight
[13:00]	Feynt Mistral 	Feynt Mistral considers it silly unless it's a physics thing.
[13:00]	DanielRavenNest Ni 	http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/snowstorm_viewer-development/rev/237980/index.html
[13:00]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) 	i need to ask one of the lindens some thing
[13:00]	Feynt Mistral 	And if it's a physics thing I can fix that simple enough.
[13:01]	Gaia Clary 	Feynt its a LOD issue
[13:01]	davep (runitai.linden) 	later folks, thanks for the discussion
[13:01]	Rusalka Writer 	Aloha!
[13:01]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	cheers davep
[13:01]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Thx Lindens.
[13:01]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Adios Lindens
[13:01]	Feynt Mistral 	Boo. I want my giant trees. >P
[13:01]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Thank you
[13:01]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	and Nyx and Charlar
[13:01]	Skygirl Kline 	byes
[13:01]	Charlie (charlar.linden) 	Thanks all - great questions and feedback
[13:02]	Rusalka Writer 	Aloha!
[13:02]	Feynt Mistral 	Night.
[13:02]	ac14 Hutson 	see ya
[13:02]	Feynt Mistral 	Oh well, back to scripting.
[13:02]	Rusalka Writer 	Back to the woodshop.
[13:03]	Rusalka Writer 	Aloha.
[13:03]	Nyx Linden 	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mesh/Technical_Overview for more details on the costs themselves, I need to run to my next meeting through :)
[13:04]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Is the limit of group back to 24?
[13:04]	gerardo Verino 	thanks nyx
[13:04]	awesome (jana.drezelan) 	util end of august it will 100 on agni
[13:04]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	I can't add group..
[13:04]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	They just said it would be before the end of Augist
[13:04]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	*August too
[13:04]	DanielRavenNest Ni 	ok, so not tommorrow
[13:04]	Kadah (kadah.coba) 	There doesnt seem to be anything in that article on PE costs
[13:04]	awesome (jana.drezelan) 	lol not tommorow
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