Beta Server Office Hours/Minutes/2014-11-13

[2014/11/13 15:00] Rex Cronon: hi yuzuru
[2014/11/13 15:00] Inara Breen: Hey, Yuzuru!
[2014/11/13 15:00] Whirly Fizzle: Heya Everyone :)
[2014/11/13 15:00] Psi Merlin: Hi /All
[2014/11/13 15:00] Jenna Felton: hello Nalates, Rex and Psi :)
[2014/11/13 15:00] Rex Cronon: hi everybody
[2014/11/13 15:00] Rex Cronon: hi whirly
[2014/11/13 15:00] Inara Breen: hi, folks just arrived.
[2014/11/13 15:00] Rex Cronon: hi psi
[2014/11/13 15:00] Rex Cronon: hi jenna
[2014/11/13 15:00] Psi Merlin: Hi Jenna, Rex
[2014/11/13 15:00] Rex Cronon: hi inara
[2014/11/13 15:01] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden): Hi guys
[2014/11/13 15:01] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell): Hello, Maestro.
[2014/11/13 15:01] rcdsQueChatLog: State changed.{click me to get the url}
[2014/11/13 15:01] Whirly Fizzle: Heya Maestro
[2014/11/13 15:01] Rex Cronon: hi maestro
[2014/11/13 15:01] Jenna Felton: hello Maestro :)
[2014/11/13 15:01] Psi Merlin: Hi Maestro
[2014/11/13 15:02] Caleb Linden: hi maestro, are we expecting any other lindens to join us
[2014/11/13 15:02] Caleb Linden: ?
[2014/11/13 15:02] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden): I'm not
[2014/11/13 15:03] Caleb Linden: i give it just a few more minutes, and then we shall start
[2014/11/13 15:04] Rex Cronon: hello caleb
[2014/11/13 15:04] Caleb Linden: alrighty, let's do this.
[2014/11/13 15:05] Jenna Felton: hi Arton :)
[2014/11/13 15:05] Caleb Linden: i have a really light update for this week
[2014/11/13 15:06] Caleb Linden: there was no update to the main channel
[2014/11/13 15:07] Margithe: lots of these lately.
[2014/11/13 15:07] Caleb Linden: and all RC received yet another maintenance release addressing some of the configuration improvement for texture and mesh CDN
[2014/11/13 15:08] Caleb Linden: that's it :D
[2014/11/13 15:08] Whirly Fizzle: Are those CDN changes something users will notice?
[2014/11/13 15:09] Jenna Felton: i have a silly question too, regarding updates
[2014/11/13 15:09] Whirly Fizzle: I mean, are they to fix any of the known CDN problems?
[2014/11/13 15:09] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden): No, it's just a way to reconfigure the CDN URL if we need to
[2014/11/13 15:09] Whirly Fizzle: Ok ta
[2014/11/13 15:09] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden): eventually there's a plan to make that point at a more 'dynamic' hostname
[2014/11/13 15:09] Jenna Felton: if LL could have done especially here in the beta grid that would cause lower download traffic
[2014/11/13 15:10] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden): which is still being set up
[2014/11/13 15:10] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden): However, there is some viewer work meant to address some of those CDN issues, Whirly
[2014/11/13 15:10] Whirly Fizzle: Fast-pipe?
[2014/11/13 15:10] Jenna Felton: because since last meeting i experience the traffic dropped to the half, my feeling, last time it tended to be between 10 and 200 kbit/s and now below 100
[2014/11/13 15:10] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden): Yes, from Monty.
[2014/11/13 15:10] Whirly Fizzle: Ya got that one lol
[2014/11/13 15:10] Jenna Felton: and i dont think i changed anything in my settings
[2014/11/13 15:11] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden): to address BUG-7698 and similar ones
[2014/11/13 15:11] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden): I'm actually semi-afk to test that right now :)
[2014/11/13 15:11] Jenna Felton: (between 100 and 200 last time) :)
[2014/11/13 15:11] Caleb Linden: Jenna, do you have a jira reference regarding the traffic drop?
[2014/11/13 15:11] Whirly Fizzle: Fast-pipe with pipelining enabled def works better for me on CDN regions. The long texture loading stalls have pretty much stopped
[2014/11/13 15:11] Jenna Felton: no, i dont have
[2014/11/13 15:12] Jenna Felton: its actually good when it is lower, because my network has less to load
[2014/11/13 15:12] Jenna Felton: i just noticed today
[2014/11/13 15:12] Whirly Fizzle: Oh someone filed an issue about traffic dropping
[2014/11/13 15:12] Whirly Fizzle: sec
[2014/11/13 15:12] Whirly Fizzle: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-7740 <---traffic
[2014/11/13 15:12] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden): um, this is the UDP traffic stat you see in the statistics bar, right?
[2014/11/13 15:12] Whirly Fizzle: Oh sorry, thought you meant traffic traffic
[2014/11/13 15:13] Jenna Felton: thank you Whirly
[2014/11/13 15:13] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden): though if you had fewer avatars on your parcel, youd' also have less network traffic :)
[2014/11/13 15:13] Caleb Linden: Yeah, i wanted to make sure what they meant by traffic
[2014/11/13 15:13] Jenna Felton: ah
[2014/11/13 15:14] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden): the CDN would be using http (so not UDP), so you shouldn't see texture/mesh fetching affect that..
[2014/11/13 15:14] Jenna Felton: ok, that can be, but i had to look in the sky or in floor to keep it below 50kbit/s last time, but now i can look at us all and stil be in same range
[2014/11/13 15:14] Whirly Fizzle: The person that wears the animated kitty tail isn't here today. That thing has huge objects updates that causes an increase in UDP reading in stats floater. Maybe thats why its lower heh
[2014/11/13 15:14] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden): perhaps some 'noisy' objects nearby quieted down or got derezzed?
[2014/11/13 15:15] Jenna Felton: i see
[2014/11/13 15:15] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden): heh, yeah I've seen some pretty crazy tails..
[2014/11/13 15:15] Whirly Fizzle: Me too lol
[2014/11/13 15:15] Margithe: ...and yet, you give us no custom bones!
[2014/11/13 15:15] Jenna Felton: /me laughs
[2014/11/13 15:15] Margithe: Sl will always have a significant amount of tails.
[2014/11/13 15:16] Jenna Felton: ok, even it thats were tails, i will not stop pet tail wearer :)
[2014/11/13 15:16] Margithe: manticore pet wearer <.<
[2014/11/13 15:16] Whirly Fizzle: Derender is a great thing :D
[2014/11/13 15:17] Whirly Fizzle: Oh I have Manticores too. I love them
[2014/11/13 15:17] Jenna Felton: i was thougt perhaps LL did something and this more efficient SL traffic wil last for ever :)
[2014/11/13 15:18] Rex Cronon: don't u know that the lindens use magic pixelated bits to make things work better;)
[2014/11/13 15:18] Object: Hello, Avatar!
[2014/11/13 15:18] Jenna Felton: yes, this is why i am here :)
[2014/11/13 15:20] Margithe: Anything else you can tell us about future ongoings?
[2014/11/13 15:21] Whirly Fizzle: Seeing as its quiet, I was curious about https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-7797 . The same guy filed this on the Firestorm JIRA too. I can reproduce it but I'm sure its not new behaviour (filer says it is) and it seems like expected behaviour too. But Im not sure.....
[2014/11/13 15:21] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden): I'm working on the viewer-fastpipe viewer testing
[2014/11/13 15:21] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden): I just figured out how to emulate the sort of bad texture loading that people are seeing
[2014/11/13 15:21] Whirly Fizzle: Oh! How?
[2014/11/13 15:22] Whirly Fizzle: Bad as in slow or bad as in the texture corruption issue some are seeing?
[2014/11/13 15:22] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden): oh, I had to mess with the firewall rules on my PC
[2014/11/13 15:22] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden): so that it would drop HTTP connections after 100KB was transferred
[2014/11/13 15:22] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden): so then they time out after you start downloading a texture..
[2014/11/13 15:23] Whirly Fizzle: Does that only cause a problem on CDN regions for you?
[2014/11/13 15:23] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden): Hm, I'm not sure if the textures are corrupt, but they often appear in the lower resolution state
[2014/11/13 15:23] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden): Well, I think this case would happen with or without the CDN
[2014/11/13 15:24] Jenna Felton: what happens when you delete a texture from cache shortly after it was downloaded?
[2014/11/13 15:24] Rex Cronon: maybe the isp drops the connection and not users firewall?
[2014/11/13 15:24] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden): I'm not sure why it would happen for real cases only when using the CDN
[2014/11/13 15:24] Whirly Fizzle: CDN seems to lose its cache quite effectively >.<
[2014/11/13 15:24] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden): Maybe, Rex
[2014/11/13 15:26] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden): I think it would continue to show the texture while it's still in RAM, Jenna. But if you left the region for a while and then tried to render it again.. I wonder if the viewer would be smart enough to download it again?
[2014/11/13 15:27] Jenna Felton: i was thinking this way to simulate corrupt textures. I think the viewer will start to download it again, but i am not sure, because there is a sort of cache indes
[2014/11/13 15:27] Jenna Felton: index*
[2014/11/13 15:28] Jonathan Yap: Is there some menu to tell the viewer to check what is in the cache directory?
[2014/11/13 15:29] Jonathan Yap: Jenna, you can do a quick test: delete the entire cache manually and see what happens next
[2014/11/13 15:29] Whirly Fizzle: Those seeing corrupted textures since CDN all have "Invalid Content-Range header encountered (Core_4)" errors all over their logs for mesh and texture fetches. Its happening to people on wired connections, not just those on a cellular network.
[2014/11/13 15:29] Jonathan Yap: Don't go through the viewer's UI
[2014/11/13 15:30] Whirly Fizzle: Symptoms are different for those on a cellular network then those on a wired connection though
[2014/11/13 15:30] Jenna Felton: ah i see
[2014/11/13 15:31] Whirly Fizzle: Deleted cache lol
[2014/11/13 15:31] Whirly Fizzle: It let me delete all of texture cache apart from fastCache.cache
[2014/11/13 15:32] Jonathan Yap: turn away and back again, what happens
[2014/11/13 15:32] Whirly Fizzle: Ill hyop to another region and wait 30 secs and come back
[2014/11/13 15:32] Rex Cronon: somebody must be playing man-in-the-middle attacks and injecting executable code into the textures:)
[2014/11/13 15:32] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden): Yep, that's the only way to know what'll happen for sure :)
[2014/11/13 15:33] Lucia Nightfire: idt I've seen executable code in compressed jpegs before, heh
[2014/11/13 15:34] Rex Cronon: u look at "naked" image code:)
[2014/11/13 15:34] Whirly Fizzle: Grey textures, loading back in now
[2014/11/13 15:34] Whirly Fizzle: Loading is as if I landed in an uncached region. Loaded back in normally
[2014/11/13 15:35] Whirly Fizzle: Log is being a bit whiny
[2014/11/13 15:35] Jonathan Yap: That would make sense, if you also had deleted the master index file
[2014/11/13 15:35] Whirly Fizzle: Lots of.....
[2014/11/13 15:35] Whirly Fizzle: newview/llvocache.cpp(1506) : 2014-11-13T23:33:37Z WARNING: LLVOCache::writeToCache: Failed to update cache header index 26. handle = 1096213093148928
[2014/11/13 15:35] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden): /me nods
[2014/11/13 15:35] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden): it thinks that it has the texture in the cache, but then the file is missing
[2014/11/13 15:36] Whirly Fizzle: Viewer downloaded everything again normally though
[2014/11/13 15:36] Jenna Felton: that means it was unable to update the inces because the texture is there already, and can use the freshly downloaded copy?
[2014/11/13 15:37] Jenna Felton: inces -> index
[2014/11/13 15:37] Whirly Fizzle: I didn't disable fast cache in debug though so fast cache was still in use
[2014/11/13 15:37] Whirly Fizzle: FastCacheFetchEnabled
[2014/11/13 15:38] Jonathan Yap: For non-US people: no meeting on the 27th - Thanksgiving
[2014/11/13 15:39] arton Rotaru: okies, TY
[2014/11/13 15:39] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden): Yes, we also won't have rolls that week, I've heard
[2014/11/13 15:39] Rex Cronon: it would be interesting to talk to lindens filled with turkey;)
[2014/11/13 15:40] Caleb Linden: this is true
[2014/11/13 15:40] Jenna Felton: butt first you have to thank them :)
[2014/11/13 15:41] Jenna Felton: good Backer is no more a chicken :) that would be most funny
[2014/11/13 15:41] Lucia Nightfire: I guess the only shiney we're going to get this year is materials by LSL, huh, heh
[2014/11/13 15:41] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden): He can be a Christmas hen
[2014/11/13 15:41] Lucia Nightfire: and by shiney I mean LSL shineys, heh
[2014/11/13 15:41] Whirly Fizzle: Oh heh, its didn't like me deleting inventory cache while logged in. My inventory is actually fully fetched but stuck "Fetching......"
[2014/11/13 15:42] Jenna Felton: Thank you for testing that Whirly
[2014/11/13 15:42] Jonathan Yap: The viewer was not coded with files dropping out underneath it in mind
[2014/11/13 15:42] Whirly Fizzle: No :D
[2014/11/13 15:42] Jenna Felton: Oh, Whirly, almost forgot. i beleive i have an idea why the https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-7797 happens. When i scroll out so i dont see anything ( i used it to put my download trafic to minimum when i was afk) and then i press ESC key and the viewer starts to render everythign again, then my download goes up about 4000 kbit/s, I think in that time the ping will be extremelly low
[2014/11/13 15:42] Jonathan Yap: It would be interesting if it could use a shared network drive in a household with more than 1 person using a viewer
[2014/11/13 15:43] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden): Oh, if you'd like to share http asset fetches, it would be easier to set up a transparent HTTP proxy, I'd think
[2014/11/13 15:43] Jonathan Yap: sorry, Maestro :P
[2014/11/13 15:43] Jonathan Yap: Simon, how is that ping number generated?
[2014/11/13 15:44] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden): /me was looking around for Simon
[2014/11/13 15:44] Jonathan Yap: yeah, I was thinking about him for something else, oops
[2014/11/13 15:44] Jenna Felton: A local private CDN server, could be an interesting thing
[2014/11/13 15:44] Jenna Felton: CDN proxy
[2014/11/13 15:44] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden): as I recall, the ping number is your actual network round trip, measured by the UDP connection to the sim, *plus* some other time
[2014/11/13 15:44] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden): like the time required to render the frame
[2014/11/13 15:45] Jonathan Yap: Because I wonder what happens if you do a ping from a command window while the viewer's number is acting wonky
[2014/11/13 15:45] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden): so if you're only getting 10FPS, that's an automatic +100ms on top of the actual network round trip time
[2014/11/13 15:45] Jenna Felton: yes when the viewer used the network for downloading textures and mesh, there is les space to do anything else
[2014/11/13 15:45] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden): that ping time may also include the sim's frame time (22.2ms if running at 45fps)
[2014/11/13 15:46] Nal (nalates.urriah): In the viewer ping there also seems to be some server factor. As ping goes through the roof in an region where the server is lagging. During that time system ping will not show a degradation.
[2014/11/13 15:46] Whirly Fizzle: Ahhhh. Okay that explains why he gets a higher ping while cammed on certain avies then. If they are render heavy his FPS will drop
[2014/11/13 15:46] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden): right now, for example, a ping to the sim host from my pc measures 22ms
[2014/11/13 15:46] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden): but the viewer shows 39ms
[2014/11/13 15:46] Whirly Fizzle: When I first land on a region thats render heavy my ping will go up to ~1000, but only for a second or so.
[2014/11/13 15:47] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden): hm, that doesn't quite add up .. I don't have 66fps right now
[2014/11/13 15:47] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden): maybe there's some overlap between the two times
[2014/11/13 15:47] Whirly Fizzle: It seems any increase in traffic makes ping increase but it drops down again
[2014/11/13 15:47] Jenna Felton: because the ping time the viewer shows includes the delay the viewer uses to drop the FPS
[2014/11/13 15:48] Jenna Felton: (i think)
[2014/11/13 15:48] Jonathan Yap: The viewer is not pinging all that often -- what is it, about once ever few seconds?
[2014/11/13 15:48] Nal (nalates.urriah): I seem to remember discussion some time ago about viewer ping being more a measure of actual message time, which included time for the server and viewer to handle the message and calc the time.
[2014/11/13 15:49] Jenna Felton: actually it micht ping every time it receives something from the servers, the ping would be the time between sending request and receiving the data, i.e. not really pinging at all
[2014/11/13 15:49] Jenna Felton: micht = might
[2014/11/13 15:49] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden): My guess would be that a traffic increase could increase ping time due to packet queuing
[2014/11/13 15:49] Whirly Fizzle: I havnt noticed lag spikes when my ping increases like the filer of that issue says though
[2014/11/13 15:50] Jonathan Yap: There are 2 packets in the viewer's protocol: Start and CompletePingCheck
[2014/11/13 15:50] Whirly Fizzle: But, if my connection is acting up and I have bad packetloss, that seems to go hand in hand with a horrid high ping, and then it feels "laggy" because of latency issues
[2014/11/13 15:51] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden): Yeah, I'm almost certain it's not sending an ICMP 'ping', Jenna - I think that time is just measured by the regular UDP data packets between the sim and viewer
[2014/11/13 15:52] Jonathan Yap: and if there is udp packet loss then the ping number will be higher
[2014/11/13 15:52] Jonathan Yap: StartPingCheck High 1 NotTrusted Unencoded
[2014/11/13 15:53] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden): Thanks Jonathan
[2014/11/13 15:54] Jonathan Yap: I'm starting to sound like I know what I am talking about :)
[2014/11/13 15:54] Whirly Fizzle: lol
[2014/11/13 15:57] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden): Anyway, it's probably a more useful measure of latency than network ping
[2014/11/13 15:57] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden): I suppose it's more like.. "if I press the jump key, how much delay will there be before I start to see my avatar begin to jump?"
[2014/11/13 15:58] arton Rotaru: yeah, it's telling me all the time that I'm too far away from the host :p
[2014/11/13 15:58] arton Rotaru: 167ms right now....
[2014/11/13 15:59] Margithe: thats more of a finger rather than ping
[2014/11/13 15:59] arton Rotaru: lol
[2014/11/13 15:59] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden): Having watched Interstellar last night, the solution is clearly to build a wormhole and string an ethernet cable through it :)
[2014/11/13 15:59] Jenna Felton: i just repeated the test, when i scroll out to see nothing and wait half minute and then press ESC, my viewer shown ping goes shortly from under 200ms to over 300ms while rendering the scene, but its not full so that takes just a while
[2014/11/13 15:59] arton Rotaru: heh probably