Beta Server Office Hours/Minutes/2010-10-28

Category:Beta Server Office Hours - Minutes
This meeting was held on October 28th, 2010
= Agenda =
== Updates ==
* We just keep steaming right along.
** No Production release this week
** Display Names is on Magnum
*** https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Beta/Magnum
** BlueSteel got a crash fixer.
*** https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Beta/BlueSteel
** LeTigre (Ambroff's Isentropic) might go out next week
*** https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Beta/LeTigre
*** Friends missing bug.
**** https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-6399
= Transcript =
Transcript of Oskar Linden's Beta Server Office Hour for October 28th, 2010:
* [15:00] Marigold Devin: Is it a bird, Is it a plain, no its OSKAR
* [15:00] Oskar Linden: yay
* [15:00] TankMaster Finesmith: hiya Oskar
* [15:00] Marigold Devin: Bonjour, Hallo, Wilkommen
* [15:01] Kallista Destiny: All hail the great and powerful Oskar
* [15:01] Lares Carter: heya Oskar, heya everyone
* [15:01] SHAMUS Carter: hi oskar
* [15:01] Gooden Uggla: hiya oskar
* [15:01] Oskar Linden: hey everyone
* [15:01] Oskar Linden: happy thursday
* [15:02] Marigold Devin: Is it better than last Thursday was?
* [15:02] Gooden Uggla: what's the good word today?
* [15:02] TankMaster Finesmith: happy day before friday
* [15:02] Oskar Linden: welcome to Oskar's Office Hours
* [15:02] Bronson Blackadder: OOH
* [15:02] Oskar Linden: the good word? patois
* [15:02] Oskar Linden: according to my screensaver
* [15:02] Latif Khalifa: lol
* [15:02] Oskar Linden: meaning a local dialect different from the nations expected language
* [15:03] Oskar Linden: like gang patois in inner LA
* [15:03] Oskar Linden: ok then
* [15:03] Oskar Linden: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Beta_Server_Office_Hours#Agenda
* [15:03] Oskar Linden: there is the agenda
* [15:03] Oskar Linden: just the usual stuff to talk about today
* [15:04] Oskar Linden: although there is a rumor kelly wanted to demo something
* [15:04] Oskar Linden: but I can't get a hold of him
* [15:04] Oskar Linden: so iuno
* [15:04] Oskar Linden: looks like I am the only Linden here
* [15:04] SHAMUS CarterSHAMUS: Carter eeps.
* [15:04] Latif Khalifa: mono 2.6.1 - phase one deployed on two regions here Badnarik and Dore
* [15:04] Oskar Linden: maestro will come later
* [15:04] Gooden Uggla: cool
* [15:04] Latif Khalifa: 2.6.7 even
* [15:04] Oskar Linden: was that it latif?
* [15:04] Oskar Linden: well well
* [15:05] Latif Khalifa: I don't know what he wanted to present, my guess would be that, not sure
* [15:05] Oskar Linden: I've been heads down on some other stuff
* [15:05] SHAMUS Carter: mono update finaly?
* [15:05] Oskar Linden: he can talk about it if he shows up
* [15:05] Oskar Linden: let's see here... starting at the top of the agenda
* [15:05] Oskar Linden: we had no production release this week
* [15:06] Oskar Linden: letting things settle :-)
* [15:06] Oskar Linden: I also forgot to post last weeks OH Transcript
* [15:06] Oskar Linden: sorry about that
* [15:06] Oskar Linden: the RC channels got a few tiny tweaks
* [15:06] Gooden Uggla: i swear.... when mono finally gets updated (crosses fingers) i won't know what to do with myself... so many workarounds to take down...
* [15:06] Oskar Linden: BlueSteel is just a crash fixer
* [15:07] Oskar Linden: but Magnum has Display Names
* [15:07] Gooden Uggla: are the RC channels behaving themselves?
* [15:07] Oskar Linden: LeTigre is feisty
* [15:07] Techwolf Lupindo: I've read where one shop was forced to rent a full sim due to problem with BlueSteel on mainland.
* [15:07] Jonno Stromfield: Kely
* [15:07] Gooden Uggla: *nods*
* [15:07] Oskar Linden: has been since she's been on the grid. that's ambroff's isentropic branch
* [15:07] Oskar Linden: I'll get to that
* [15:07] Lares Carter: hey kelly :)
* [15:08] Rex Cronon: hello people
* [15:08] Oskar Linden: so the Magnum regions have display names if you guys want to mess with that
* [15:08] Oskar Linden: requires v2.3 or the latest snowstorm
* [15:08] Gooden Uggla: hola kelly
* [15:08] Oskar Linden: I was having fun with some of the LSL for that the other dau
* [15:08] Oskar Linden: y
* [15:08] Oskar Linden: there's kelly
* [15:08] Oskar Linden: welcome
* [15:08] Kelly Linden: hello
* [15:08] Oskar Linden: speaking of LeTigre
* [15:08] Kallista Destiny: I tried it, It seems quite clear when somon is using a display name
* [15:08] Latif Khalifa: hi Kelly
* [15:08] Rex Cronon: hello
* [15:09] Oskar Linden: we've got this bug
* [15:09] Oskar Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-6399?
* [15:09] [[User:JIRA-helper: [#SVC-6399|JIRA-helper: [#SVC-6399]]: 
* [15:09] Kallista Destiny: I'm much less concerned about it than I was
* [15:09] Oskar Linden: it is hard to get a good repro for
* [15:09] Oskar Linden: it happens on LeTigre and it makes it look like all your friends are offline
* [15:09] Oskar Linden: I joked that perhaps the reporter didn't have any friends...
* [15:09] Kallista Destiny: I'll have to tell the Phoenix group.... Thy are feilding al= bunch of those
* [15:09] Oskar Linden: but if you guys see that this weekend update that jira
* [15:10] Gooden Uggla: that's not good... does the list activate when you TP to another server region?
* [15:10] Oskar Linden: orly
* [15:10] Oskar Linden: yeah. please have them comment on there
* [15:10] Oskar Linden: i'll ping them too
* [15:10] FireFox Bancroft: Forever stuck (Loading) avatars
* [15:10] Oskar Linden: we don't have much to go on there
* [15:10] TankMaster Finesmith: i think there 7 jiras in the phoenix jiras on friends list not showing
* [15:11] Oskar Linden: yeah we've got to figure out the ghosting thing too
* [15:11] Gooden Uggla: i have a large list, i'll give it a shot after the meeting
* [15:11] TankMaster Finesmith: rot he stats is incorrect rather
* [15:11] Oskar Linden: although support has the load is no higher than usual
* [15:11] Oskar Linden: perhaps it only affects the vocal now :-)
* [15:11] JS Streamwechsler-HUD: whispers: Paskis' Radio TV - Initialised
* [15:11] FireFox Bancroft: Izzie over there is a good demonstration, she's still (Loading...) to me
* [15:11] JS Streamwechsler-HUD: whispers: Warning, it appears that the land here is owned by someone else, or group owned. You will need to use the subwoofer, deeded to a group, to use the Radio TV on group land.
* [15:11] JS Streamwechsler-HUD: whispers: Paskis' Radio TV - Ready!
* [15:12] Jacky Scharf: Good evening, ladies and gentlemen.
* [15:12] Jacky's translator: Good evening, gentlemen and ladies.
* [15:12] IzzieBellah Hinterland: i'm all loaded
* [15:12] IzzieBellah Hinterland: for me ;)
* [15:12] Oskar Linden: like I said keep an eye out for missing friends lists
* [15:12] FireFox Bancroft: naturally you can see yourself
* [15:12] Rex Cronon: hello
* [15:12] Gooden Uggla: i seem to remember that was once a viewer problem...
* [15:12] Oskar Linden: if we can get good info on it before next monday we can act on it
* [15:12] Kallista Destiny: doing a test character seems to make things right. (with the ball of fuzz folks)
* [15:12] Oskar Linden: otherwise LeTigre will probably ship with the bug in there and get fixed later when we know what is going on
* [15:13] Gooden Uggla: ?
* [15:13] Latif Khalifa: i've not noticed all friends offline, but i've heard people complain about it
* [15:13] Kadah Coba: I havent gotten it myself in a number of days
* [15:13] Gooden Uggla: that's a pretty big bug to intentionally ship
* [15:14] Kallista Destiny: yeah kind of a semi-showstopper
* [15:14] Oskar Linden: we have no repro and no way to gauge impact
* [15:14] Gooden Uggla: unless it's in the viewer, then it's one of many that they ship
* [15:14] Techwolf Lupindo: Oskar, repro is to login into a LeTirge sim. How hard is that?
* [15:14] Oskar Linden: so the plan is to watch it until next week and cautiously roll forward
* [15:15] Oskar Linden: because TL it doesn't effect everyone
* [15:15] Oskar Linden: if 100% of people logging into a LeTigre region hit that bug we can work with that
* [15:15] Rex Cronon: i guess the lindens who test it had no friends?
* [15:15] Jonno Stromfield: ol
* [15:15] Oskar Linden: T_T
* [15:15] Latif Khalifa: not all bugs are that easy, you need to find the hard ones too ;)
* [15:15] Oskar Linden: so I have put the issue to you guys
* [15:15] Oskar Linden: show me it's a showstopper by next monday
* [15:16] Oskar Linden: if you can we can do something about it
* [15:16] Oskar Linden: right now we don't have enough info to determine
* [15:16] Rex Cronon: so, u want us on the main grid going in letigre(and mustang) and see if our friends list boes poof?
* [15:16] Rex Cronon: goes poof*
* [15:17] SHAMUS Carter: drunk friends list ;-
* [15:17] Latif Khalifa: if you relog in one of those regions, it will not go puff if you teleprt there
* [15:17] Rex Cronon: and if it happens, what r we supposed to do?
* [15:17] Oskar Linden: make a not in that jira
* [15:17] Oskar Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-6399?
* [15:17] [[User:JIRA-helper: [#SVC-6399|JIRA-helper: [#SVC-6399]]: 
* [15:18] Rex Cronon: a note. right?
* [15:18] Oskar Linden: and a vote
* [15:18] Rex Cronon: ok
* [15:18] Jacky Scharf: I had this problem only I was a ghost before. But I will try it with Snowglobe to find out it's a problem with the viewer or the region.
* [15:18] Rex Cronon: using any viewer?
* [15:18] Oskar Linden: LeTigre is on about 6% of the grid and we don't have a way to analyze this impact without hearing from people
* [15:19] IzzieBellah HinterlandIzzieBellah: Hinterland wonders how quickly the bug would be found if LeTigre were running in LInden Village....
* [15:19] Kadah Coba: Cant vote, marked as fixed
* [15:19] Oskar Linden: :-p
* [15:19] Latif Khalifa: Abroff writes in that jira "Just an update, we were able to repro this problem and have a fix lined up, which will be rolled out next week."
* [15:19] Oskar Linden: hah
* [15:19] Oskar Linden: I should read those notes
* [15:19] TankMaster Finesmith: heh, asigned to "workingonit linden"
* [15:19] Latif Khalifa: might be a good idea ;)
* [15:19] Rex Cronon: hmm. no ned to test it
* [15:20] Oskar Linden: no I still want to gauge impact
* [15:20] Oskar Linden: impact of shipping to the grid with that bug
* [15:20] Latif Khalifa: workingonit linden linden has mailbox and homedir set to /dev/null ;)
* [15:20] Oskar Linden: or holding off next weeks release
* [15:20] Latif Khalifa: Oskar, don't, if you have a fix
* [15:20] Flynn Tigerpaw: I just tried logging into letigre where my land is... my alt showed up in friends list online which is correct. It didn't happen to me
* [15:21] Oskar Linden: if it affects .0001% of people we're not holding back a release for a week
* [15:21] Oskar Linden: we're tight as it is
* [15:21] TankMaster Finesmith: the fix is found in the null folder
* [15:21] Oskar Linden: that's what I'm trying to determine
* [15:21] Gooden Uggla: ambroff says he has a fix... why ship it iuntil the fix is patched in?
* [15:21] Latif Khalifa: make KPC Amendment 1 ;)
* [15:21] Flynn Tigerpaw: using viewer 1.23
* [15:21] Oskar Linden: because of the KCP
* [15:21] Oskar Linden: the KCP says new code needs to settle for a week on the grid
* [15:22] Gooden Uggla: not seeing your friends list if you live on one of those sims is a pretty big bug
* [15:22] Latif Khalifa: well shipping sims with known fixad bugs is bad
* [15:22] Gooden Uggla: in fact, that's the essence of thye "showstopper" definition
* [15:22] Kelly Linden: I personally think if the impact is low - if it is rare - we should ship with the bug then ship the fix the following week. But that is just my opinion and a big "if" which is what I think Oskar is asking for help on judging.
* [15:22] Oskar Linden: Iwell it's our decision to make. I'm asking for your input on the depth of this bug
* [15:23] Oskar Linden: if you guys can help me with that great, if you want to argue on the point of shipping it you're not helping e
* [15:23] Oskar Linden: me
* [15:23] Marigold Devin: Well it doesn't sound hard for us all to test it by logging into LeTigre
* [15:23] Gooden Uggla: what's the % of SG and 1,23 users still? more than half?
* [15:23] Marigold Devin: 2 mins of our time
* [15:23] Latif Khalifa: it is your decision of course. and the feedback is what we're giving you, you decide what to do with it
* [15:23] Marigold Devin: straight after OH
* [15:23] Jonno Stromfield: you have to judge what are the upside fixes as well as the dowsides to shipping
* [15:23] Gooden Uggla: including the `1.5 TPVs
* [15:24] TankMaster Finesmith: theres more v2 users now than older LL clients
* [15:24] Oskar Linden: I think we can move on. I would appreciate your help determining how much of the grid will be affected by this bug. that's all I needed
* [15:24] SHAMUS Carter: TPV have not imbraced the 2.x codebase
* [15:24] Gooden Uggla: i hope it doesn't kill amaretto horses :) (the new bunnies)
* [15:24] TankMaster Finesmith: some have, shanus
* [15:24] Oskar Linden: so kelly. what do you have to talk to us about
* [15:24] Kelly Linden: Upgrading the LSL mono engine to Mono 2.6.7
* [15:24] RedMokum Bravin: The Amaretto horses just killed 2/3 of our sim speed, Gooden. :-(
* [15:24] SHAMUS Carter: Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee-Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaw!!!!!!
* [15:25] Latif Khalifa: \o/
* [15:25] Oskar Linden: well well well now that is something
* [15:25] Rex Cronon: lsl is dead?
* [15:25] Oskar Linden: so what bugs are you planning on introducing ;-)
* [15:25] Gooden Uggla: kelly, you're our hero
* [15:25] Oskar LindenOskar: Linden deflects the heat to kelly
* [15:25] Rex Cronon: oh "lsl mono engine"
* [15:25] Kallista Destiny: lols @Oskar
* [15:25] Kelly Linden: There are two phases: Phase 1 is "mono2 aware" which is a hybrid mutant simulator that won't crash when it loads scripts from old sims OR future Mono 2.6.7 sims.
* [15:26] Kelly Linden: won't crash the scripts, everything works fine etc.
* [15:26] Gooden Uggla: when we can have 60 avs on a sim again, the grid will throw 100's of parties in your honor
* [15:26] Kelly Linden: Phase 2 is the full deal that includes mono 2.6.7 and other improvements primarily around sim performance loading scripts.
* [15:26] Kelly Linden: Both of these got through the first pass at internal QA yesterday.
* [15:26] Latif Khalifa: that's good news indeed!
* [15:27] SHAMUS Carter: *:-.,_,.-:*'``'*Yayyyyyyy!!!!*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*
* [15:27] Kelly Linden: And Mono2 Aware is now on aditi - Dore and Dadnarik for now.
* [15:27] Kelly Linden: Badnarik I mean
* [15:27] Gooden Uggla: how many scripts will have to be rewritten or re-compiled?
* [15:27] Latif Khalifa: none
* [15:27] Jonno Stromfield: :)
* [15:27] Kelly Linden: We can't put Phase 2 out until everything has incorporated Mono2 Aware or everything entering a Phase 2 region will have its scripts break when it leaves.
* [15:27] Kelly Linden: Gooden: None.
* [15:28] Gooden Uggla: you're a god
* [15:28] Oskar Linden: :-)
* [15:28] Kelly Linden: hah
* [15:28] Oskar Linden: hi simon
* [15:29] SHAMUS Carter: so if there were a roll back on a sim to pre 2 aware and you tp to it from a phase top
* [15:29] Jacky Scharf: Hi Simon .
* [15:29] Jacky's translator: Hi Simon O.O
* [15:29] Rex Cronon: hi
* [15:29] Simon Linden: Hello
* [15:29] Simon Linden: Since this is on Aditi, I realized I could go to two meetings at once :)
* [15:29] Kelly Linden: Shamus: If you tried to take a phase-2 region and run it on a pre-phase-1 region the scripts would all crash.
* [15:30] Latif Khalifa: so we should check that teleporting from legacy to phase 1 and back and compiling scripts on both works?
* [15:30] Oskar Linden: heh
* [15:30] Oskar Linden: nice one simon
* [15:31] Oskar Linden: are they still hosting the mesh OH during my OH?
* [15:31] Kelly Linden: Latif yup
* [15:31] Latif Khalifa: ok, will do
* [15:31] Jacky ScharfJacky: Scharf thinks about the compatibility of 1.X viewers for the new Mono engine or others.
* [15:31] Lares Carter: mesh OH are on mondays now afaik
* [15:31] Kelly Linden: there is no viewer dependency either way
* [15:31] Latif Khalifa: mono is server side, it doesn't care about the client
* [15:31] SHAMUS Carter: good gogod
* [15:31] Kallista Destiny: I donlt think the viewews care at all
* [15:32] Latif Khalifa: it's moving running scripts from one version to another that needs testing i think
* [15:32] Kelly Linden: yup
* [15:32] SHAMUS Carter: Yus !
* [15:33] SHAMUS CarterSHAMUS: Carter backs up his scripted atachments just encace of crashes
* [15:33] Bronson Blackadder: just tried logging into a letigre sim with 1.23 couldnt get it to do the friends list ????? thing
* [15:33] Kelly Linden: dore should have some nice sim borders too
* [15:33] Latif Khalifa: perhaps you can create a phase2 sim with group access and the group title should be "this will break your scripts" :P
* [15:34] SHAMUS Carter: hehe
* [15:34] Kelly Linden: latif that isn't a bad idea, we've been trying to think of a good way to handle that.
* [15:34] Kelly Linden: the problem is it really breaks them - they won't run again if you go from phase 2 to pre-phase-1 unless you recompile.
* [15:34] Kelly Linden: no matter where you go
* [15:34] Latif Khalifa: in theory teleporting phase 2 -> phase 1 -> legacy should work right?
* [15:35] Kelly Linden: yup
* [15:35] Kelly Linden: legacy -> phase1, legacy->phase2, phase1->legacy, phase1->phase2, phase2->phase1 all work and only the last transition matters
* [15:35] Latif Khalifa: well if you make a group for people willing to risk it for testing here on aditi, and limit access to phase2 sim to that, that will work
* [15:35] SHAMUS Carter: prehaps the phase 2 testing could be on aditi and not angi
* [15:35] Latif Khalifa: i'm talking about aditi
* [15:35] Oskar Linden: there should be no risk on aditi
* [15:35] Jonno Stromfield: so can we expect a gap between phase 1 and phase 2 to ensure no rollbacks needed?
* [15:35] Oskar Linden: you can get your account updated at will now
* [15:36] Oskar Linden: so you can copy over fresh
* [15:36] Kelly Linden: jonno yes a big one
* [15:36] TheMaster Enzo: how oskar?
* [15:36] Kelly Linden: I'm not worried so much about killing your stuff on aditi as I am about finding the right bug reports.
* [15:37] Oskar Linden: TheMaster https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Preview_Grid#Updating_Your_Account_on_Aditi
* [15:37] Kelly Linden: It will be a real pain to sort out the "yes that should have broken it" from the "oh, that shouldn't have broken" cases if we have all versions available at the same time.
* [15:37] SHAMUS Carter: true
* [15:38] Latif Khalifa: proposal 1) make a phase 2 sim, 2) make open enrollmnet group for it, 3) shoot an email to scriptiers and openource mailing list explaining the pitfalls and what should be tested. My guess is that most imporant testing would be mobing between legacu <-> phase1 makes no problems, and phase1 <-> phase2 the same.
* [15:38] Kelly Linden: legacy->phase2 is also important.
* [15:39] Latif Khalifa: that should not happen on agni right?
* [15:39] Kelly Linden: I'll think about that and work something out with oskar and ambroff since I'm not gonna be around to run it.
* [15:39] SHAMUS Carter: but dissregard phase2 -> legacy?
* [15:39] Kallista Destiny: yes someon logosu out on legacy, thenk logs ben in 6 weeks later to pahse 2
* [15:39] Latif Khalifa: phase2 -> legacy *will* break stuff
* [15:39] Kelly Linden: latif: it will happen all the time. Everything in your inventory right now is 'legacy' - you plan on never pulling any of it out in phase2?
* [15:39] TheMaster Enzo: thee auto update will erase current avi and update what i have on live sl ?
* [15:40] Latif Khalifa: Kelly, right, i missed that
* [15:41] Latif Khalifa: TheMaster, if you change your password on agni it will trigger inventory sync the next day on aditi
* [15:41] SHAMUS Carter: so test legacy->phase1->phase2->phase1->lagacy thrurly
* [15:41] Oskar Linden: so when are we looking at kelly? should we put code on agni around thanksgiving weekend. you didn't have any plans right?
* [15:41] Oskar Linden: you are right TheMaster. it syncs to ADITI from AGNI
* [15:42] Kelly Linden: Any time after Nov 8th works for me Oskar, as I won't be in from then til Feb sometime
* [15:42] Oskar Linden: you hear that guys? kelly is bailing on us
* [15:42] Gooden Uggla: 0-o
* [15:42] Latif Khalifa: lol
* [15:42] Jonno Stromfield: Will this affect pre-mono, lso, scripts?
* [15:42] TheMaster Enzo: suppose i make something like a car for example here, i will lose it right?
* [15:42] Kelly Linden: jonno: no
* [15:42] Oskar Linden: yes TheMaster
* [15:42] SHAMUS Carter: box what you sdont want to close
* [15:42] SHAMUS Carter: slose
* [15:42] SHAMUS Carter: dam typo
* [15:43] SHAMUS Carter: and rez in world
* [15:43] Latif Khalifa: TheMaster you lose it if you have it in the inv. leave it on some sim and can pick it up later
* [15:43] SHAMUS Carter: yep box it and rez it and pick up later
* [15:43] TankMaster Finesmith: well. if you leave it rezzed somewhere,then relog there the next day, you can take it back in
* [15:43] Latif Khalifa: yep
* [15:43] Object: To: join our group 1) open your chat history, 2) click on the link, and 3) press the Join button. 
* [15:43] Object: : Second Life Beta
* [15:44] Oskar Linden: well alrighty then
* [15:44] Jonno Stromfield: and after this c#?
* [15:44] Oskar Linden: suggestions on next topics?
* [15:44] Oskar Linden: any questions for kelly?
* [15:44] Oskar Linden: I'm open
* [15:44] Kelly Linden: jonno: some day
* [15:44] Oskar Linden: who said anything about c#?
* [15:45] SHAMUS Carter: c# anytime soon
* [15:45] Gooden Uggla: nothing on the agenda left?
* [15:45] SHAMUS Carter: ?
* [15:45] Oskar Linden: nothing left on the agenda
* [15:45] Jonno Stromfield: rather have java .. but c#'s okay
* [15:45] Jacky Scharf: I've got a question from a AGNI resident about Mesh.
* [15:45] Jacky's translator: I've got a question from a resident about AGNI mesh.
* [15:45] Gooden Uggla: looks like 2 more items
* [15:45] Oskar Linden: ok
* [15:45] Jacky Scharf: How does a mesh count on prims?
* [15:45] Oskar Linden: hey who updated my agenda?!
* [15:45] Oskar Linden: not yet determined jacky
* [15:45] Gooden UgglaGooden: Uggla looks around and whistles
* [15:46] Latif Khalifa: it involves rand() function wich is derivative of falcons_method() :P
* [15:46] Gooden Uggla: jacky the short answer is "they don't know yet"
* [15:46] Oskar Linden: Any Other Items number 2 looks like it might be for SImon
* [15:46] Oskar Linden: When will the fix for SVC-4632[c
* [15:46] JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4632: 
* [#SVC-4632] People getting: past Estate and Land bans 
* [15:46] Jacky Scharf: Yeah, I see.
* [15:47] Oskar Linden: that question is based on the misunderstandign that a fix wasn't released
* [15:47] Oskar Linden: a fix WAS released, but it didn't fix all cases apparently
* [15:47] Gooden Uggla: ah, then can the issue be re-opened?
* [15:47] Oskar Linden: I do not know where looking into estate and land ban avoidance issues is on the core backlog
* [15:47] SHAMUS CarterSHAMUS: Carter is anoyed by lsl and how much of a pain it is. would love to have a real programlanguage like c
* [15:47] Oskar Linden: I believe it can be reopened
* [15:48] Gooden Uggla: who would be the person to re-open it?
* [15:48] Oskar Linden: hmm
* [15:48] SHAMUS Carter: thinkj the new work flow thingy prevence repoens complety :-(
* [15:48] Latif Khalifa: a linden
* [15:49] Jonno Stromfield: I've got a question/issue, if i may.
* [15:50] Oskar Linden: ok
* [15:50] Jonno Stromfield: I'm having problems keeping up with changes - even though I'm online most days, hit the forums regularly and try to turn up to these shindigs on occasion (not as often as I'd like).
* I was flying around Burning Life and hit a no fly region 10.10.25 IIRC - and I crashed. New behaviour isn't it, forcing an already flying av down. I can't find it any release notes, but I may have missed it.
* Is this a "bug fix" or a bug? And what does a body need to do to keep up these days? is there somewhere specific I can go to see all upcoming issues ahead of time?
* [15:51] Latif Khalifa: force stop flying? i haven't noticed that
* [15:51] Jonno Stromfield: I noticed it yesterday for the first time
* [15:51] Jacky Scharf: Maybe it's a feature, not a bug. :-P~
* [15:51] Oskar Linden: if you can get more info pelase file a jira
* [15:51] Jonno Stromfield: and again today in a different region
* [15:51] Oskar Linden: then we have a starting point
* [15:51] Jonno Stromfield: so it's a bug?
* [15:51] Oskar Linden: it sounds like it
* [15:51] Jonno Stromfield: kk
* [15:51] SHAMUS CarterSHAMUS: Carter has had to forse stop meny an internal anamation that has gootten stuck
* [15:52] Oskar Linden: this was a vwr crash I take it?
* [15:52] Jonno Stromfield: flyng into Deep Hoe in Burning Life it's reproducable
* [15:52] Jonno Stromfield: Hole
* [15:52] Kallista Destiny: Oskar, you told Kerry Young that you'd look into the temp Reze queueing issue, anything new?
* [15:52] Oskar Linden: which vwr?
* [15:52] Jonno Stromfield: not a crash
* [15:52] Jonno Stromfield: sorry - i was force down
* [15:53] SHAMUS Carter: simply tping can hold an ao anamation struck active
* [15:53] Jonno Stromfield: could not fly
* [15:53] Oskar Linden: there is a lot new on that front Kallista. more than we can go into here
* [15:53] Flynn Tigerpaw: is there a no fly area on aditi where we can test this?
* [15:53] Oskar Linden: we can set one up
* [15:53] Oskar Linden: it's not that hard
* [15:53] Kallista Destiny: OK thank you
* [15:53] Jonno Stromfield: but the main question remains. Is there somewhere i can go to see what's coming up ahead of time
* [15:53] Latif Khalifa: "no fly" was always just a viewer flag, i don' know if they have changed anything with regards to that
* [15:53] SHAMUS Carter: rember the no fly flag is not enforced server side
* [15:53] Oskar Linden: as for SVC-5959 I pinged maestro to look into if we have a fix
* [15:53] JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-5959: 
* [#SVC-5959] Groups notices: sent to email do not identify sender 
* [15:54] SHAMUS Carter: it's enforced viewer side
* [15:54] Oskar Linden: that is what makes me think the issue is vwr side
* [15:54] Jonno Stromfield: I have not upgraded from 1.23
* [15:55] Kadah Coba: I think you are forced to unfly if you cross or tp in to a region that has fly off at the estate level
* [15:55] Jacky ScharfJacky: Scharf (DE): If the chat software will be changed to XMPP, are there any problem with older viewers or must everybody change to a current viewer?
* [15:55] SHAMUS Carter: good question
* [15:55] Oskar Linden: upgrading vwrs will be inevitable at some point in time
* [15:56] TankMaster Finesmith: but will that be a stopper for old viewers?
* [15:56] SHAMUS Carter: and will external xmpp apps be suported
* [15:56] Oskar Linden: whether to vwr2 or a compatible TPV is your call
* [15:56] Latif Khalifa: you mean downgraded to 2.x? ;)
* [15:56] Oskar Linden: oh you don't like vwr 2 Latif? well why haven' you said something :-p
* [15:56] Jonno Stromfield: LOL.
* [15:56] Kadah CobaKadah: Coba chuckles.
* [15:57] Latif Khalifa: heh, i'd look at SL stats before making fun of people who think viewer2 is major obstacle to SL growth, but that's just me
* [15:57] Jonno Stromfield: Still want to know where I can go to get a full list of upcoming stuff - I know it's somewhere...
* [15:57] Jacky ScharfJacky: Scharf runs Snowglobe 1.2.4.3007, because it's the best viewer for her.
* [15:57] TankMaster Finesmith: isn't v2 the second most popular viewer?
* [15:57] RedMokum Bravin: Indeed I just fell onto the ground flying into Burning Man Deephole with vwr 1.23 :-)
* [15:57] Oskar Linden: sounds like someone at the burning man build messing with you
* [15:58] Oskar Linden: maybe they have a nega gravity physics hack
* [15:58] RedMokum Bravin: Neat! :-)
* [15:58] SHAMUS Carter: ahh the gravity modifications thos are fun
* [15:58] Rex Cronon: this is kind of funny:)
* [15:58] Jonno Stromfield: I just force me to rez a vehicle before continuing
* [15:58] Jonno Stromfield: waste of scripting
* [15:59] RedMokum Bravin: I wasn't smacked down with Phoenix though.
* [15:59] Jonno Stromfield: Oh really!
* [15:59] Rex Cronon: imagine: a flying person falling in a "Burning Man Deephole" :)
* [15:59] SHAMUS Carter: llSetForce is fun to use on your av
* [15:59] RedMokum Bravin: I guess "enable always fly" kept me alive then.
* [15:59] Jonno Stromfield: Rex - shame :-)
* [15:59] TankMaster Finesmith: thats what that option does...
* [15:59] Rex Cronon: well. i wasn't the one that named the sim. lol
* [16:00] TankMaster Finesmith: in vwr 1.23, if you have the admin menu open, you can fly anywhere also
* [16:00] Kallista Destiny: Considering that ALL new users gets Viewer 2 shoved down their throat, I'm not surprised. Many people find the V2 userinterface to be very painful (e.g. the little icons in the local chat window )
* [16:00] Flynn Tigerpaw: the dim menu text makes is so hard on the eyes... ouch!
* [16:01] Jonno Stromfield: As soon as they get rid of the right hand panel - I'll migrate permanently
* [16:01] Oskar Linden: you have two choices then, try to help make vwr 2 better or use something else which ensures vwr 2 won't get better
* [16:01] SHAMUS Carter: the mesh client is not that bad they did atleast fianly add the docable tags and swapable side on the side bar
* [16:01] Flynn Tigerpaw: much less everything else that is hard to see
* [16:01] SHAMUS Carter: tpv should be workign with the v2 codebase
* [16:01] Oskar Linden: vwr 2 is just as hard for me to use. I really can't honestly tell you that I like much about it
* [16:01] Kadah Coba: I pick option 3 :o
* [16:01] Oskar Linden: but I'm using it and giving feedback constantly
* [16:01] Latif Khalifa: trying to help make viewer 2 better is exercice in futility unfortunatelly
* [16:01] SHAMUS Carter: as the codebase is prity nice for what i hear
* [16:01] RedMokum Bravin: Well I'm a Phoenix user mainly, but shadows are just awesome in vwr 2.3
* [16:01] lonetorus Habilis: aparently there is some issues with UI elemets hardcoded all across the code for v2
* [16:02] Kallista Destiny: Phoenix will be once this last version is rolld out/
* [16:02] SHAMUS Carter: 0.o
* [16:02] SHAMUS Carter: they reverted to hard coding
* [16:02] SHAMUS Carter: gerrr
* [16:02] Oskar Linden: it would seem you have reached that conclusion latif. that is fairly obvious from your attitude. I get that. Perhaps others here would like to be more helpful.
* [16:02] Flynn Tigerpaw: i filed and a jira about the dim text... it only got 1 (ONE) vote... *sigh*
* [16:02] TheMaster Enzo: well many of us like v1 ui and if viewer 2 has option to use v1 ui, that will be good
* [16:02] Jacky Scharf: How I said the last OH: A viewer with 2.x code, but 1.X design. This is really the best.
* [16:02] RedMokum Bravin: Flynn: you must campaign for your jiras.
* [16:03] Marigold Devin: I'm hoping that V2 morphs into all that is good about the other viewers with a grey interface rather than black like 1.23 uses
* [16:03] Oskar Linden: I want to see Linden have a vwr that people want to use. we're kinda stuck with making vwr 2 better at this point. I'm trying to work inside that constraint.
* [16:03] Gooden Uggla: mesh is probably going to force conversion the most, people will get tired of seeing small gray disks and move to the V2
* [16:03] lonetorus Habilis: well, who says that 1.23 could not be brought up to current technological levels
* [16:03] lonetorus Habilis: might be easier than fixing v2
* [16:03] RedMokum Bravin: If only I could see small gray discs instead of the bloody horses :-p
* [16:03] Oskar Linden: it really can't lonetorus
* [16:03] SHAMUS CarterSHAMUS: Carter vomits at the 1.23 codebase
* [16:03] Marigold Devin: But if everyone was forced to user viewer 2 for a week, it would be interesting to see the feedback and statistics
* [16:03] Latif Khalifa: Oskar, I have been on since pre-alpha in sept last year. Issues pointed out by that test groups are still not adderssed, and every day incredible stubbornes of LL is showing. So take that "not helpful attitude" moniker and keep it for your self.
* [16:03] SHAMUS Carter: the 1.23 codebase is a mess
* [16:03] Gooden Uggla: oz and Q say there's no going back, they're adamant about it, so that's that
* [16:04] Jonno Stromfield: So, Oskar. having derailed this into a viewer discussion - for which i'm sorry - Where do I log into to find all the forthcoming items of interest?
* [16:04] Oskar Linden: there are lot of people that didn't listen that aren't here anymore. think about that.
* [16:04] Latif Khalifa: It's incredibly arrogant attitude like that is what makes my opinion
* [16:04] Gooden Uggla: latidf, we all know how oz is...
* [16:04] Marigold Devin: Jonno, Lil posts on the SL forums the latest for the next rolling restarts if thats any use to you
* [16:04] Oskar Linden: I'm still here. I listen. I'm trying to make vwr 2 better.
* [16:04] Marigold Devin: Says what to expect
* [16:05] Marigold DevinMarigold: Devin runs forward to kiss Oskar's feet momentarily.
* [16:05] Latif Khalifa: I just don't appreciete Oskar telling me about me not being helpful when I have volunteered hundeds of hours on testing and feedback.
* [16:05] lonetorus Habilis: oskar, but why is it going forward so slowly?
* [16:05] SHAMUS Carter: the big issue with v2x is the sidebar and trhe lack of the classic floaters
* [16:05] RedMokum Bravin: It's amazing how many people didn't even read the Burning Life announcements at login.
* [16:05] Oskar Linden: ok we'll end it at that then.
* [16:05] SHAMUS Carter: bring bsack the classic floaters
* [16:05] Jonno Stromfield: the forums are not ony not comprehensive - they are late with the news
* [16:05] SHAMUS Carter: and people would be happy
* [16:06] SHAMUS Carter: i still can't believe they cramed profiles int the sidebar
* [16:06] Marigold Devin: OK Jonno - but I don't work for LL so sorry I can't be of help to you. (me zips lip)
* [16:06] Kallista Destiny: Oscar if you could send Kerry or Me some notes on the temp rez queueing please?
* [16:06] Jonno Stromfield: sorry, Marigold
* [16:06] Oskar Linden: there are no notes to be sent Kallista
* [16:06] Gooden Uggla: when more than one profile and group can be opened, now that chat can be tabbed, more people in hosting will adopt it
* [16:07] Jonno Stromfield: Still hoping Oskar will answer
* [16:07] Marigold Devin: I get a bit teed of with being snarled at. SL is supposed to be fun - I thought - not everyone marking their territory with self-importance
* [16:07] SHAMUS Carter: 
* [16:07] lonetorus Habilis: sigh v2 is bruyght up and suddenly its 10 degrees colder in the sim
* [16:07] Jonno Stromfield: I didn't mean to narl - i promise
* [16:07] Marigold Devin: Jonno, what is it exactly that you are wanting to know about in advance?
* [16:07] Jonno Stromfield: snarl
* [16:07] Marigold Devin: I mean, Lindens send out daily blogs if you subscribe to that.
* [16:08] Jonno Stromfield: okay - I didn't know that
* [16:08] Marigold Devin: So unless you actually work within Linden Labs as a Linden why should YOU or anyone else be privvy to all the upcoming anything???
* [16:08] Kallista Destiny: Thank you Oskar and Kelly for your time.
* [16:08] Gooden Uggla: you can't blame oskar for shutting up, he already admitted he didn't like V2, you want him to get in trouble over it?
* [16:08] Oskar Linden: have a good one guys. I have to go
* [16:08] Marigold Devin: Thank you Oskar. You are fabulous.
* [16:08] RedMokum Bravin: It's a good idea to login at your account on the web too.
* [16:08] Gooden Uggla: thanks oskar and thanks kelly :)
* [16:08] Oskar Linden: you mean get in more trouble? :-(
* [16:08] SHAMUS Carter: Thank you oskar
* [16:08] TankMaster Finesmith: tc oskar