Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.09.10

Simulator_User_Group
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== List of Speakers ==
Adamburp Adamczyk	Andrew Linden 	ANSI Soderstrom
Baker Linden 	Ima Mechanique 	Kelly Linden
Kennylex Luckless	Lucia Nightfire	Mona Eberhardt
Nalates Urriah 	Petr Topaz 	Qie Niangao
Rex Cronon 	Simon Linden 	TankMaster Finesmith
Tillie Ariantho 	Whirly Fizzle 	Yuzuru Jewell
== Transcript ==
[12:02] Mona Eberhardt: And hello Baker!
[12:02] Kennylex Luckless: Meeting can start, Baker is here :-)
[12:02] Ima Mechanique: box on head, makes me nostalgic ;-)
[12:02] Mona Eberhardt: Hi Andrew!
[12:02] Baker Linden: Hello!
[12:03] Simon Linden: Very early, starting about 2am, I think, there were updates to the back-end voice system
[12:03] Simon Linden: Then we updated the whole grid, main channels and RCs as well
[12:03] Rex Cronon: hello baker
[12:03] Rex Cronon: hello andrew
[12:03] Rex Cronon: hello kelly
[12:03] ANSI Soderstrom: hi
[12:03] Simon Linden: We had to restart everything due to the voice change, and so we just did Wednesday's update today
[12:04] Simon Linden: The notes are here: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2013-09-09/td-p/2191301
[12:05] Simon Linden: The main channel just got the voice update
[12:05] Whirly Fizzle: There have been no screams about broken voice yet :D (want expecting that lol)
[12:05] Simon Linden: On the Magnum RC, it just got the voice update too. That one has some of Monty's http work on it
[12:06] Simon Linden: yes ... it's been really quiet about the voice update, which is either really good or really bad news :P
[12:07] Simon Linden: The Bluesteel and LeTigre RC channels have a new maintenance release, and the most interesting bit in there is some threading work on vehicle region crossings
[12:07] Mona Eberhardt: Does this mean we're nearing the death of the diagonal region issue as well, Simon?
[12:08] Simon Linden: I think that didn't get into the release notes ... we're not expecting a big impact anyway
[12:08] Simon Linden: I don't think there was any work done that would change that, Mona
[12:08] Andrew Linden: It doesn't mean the death of region crossing problems
[12:08] Simon Linden: Definitely not :)
[12:09] Andrew Linden: but the data streaming on the way OUT of the region is now threaded
[12:09] Simon Linden: That's all my news ... Kelly, Baker or Andrew, do you have anything?
[12:09] Tillie Ariantho: People are dying at region crossings? ;-D
[12:09] Andrew Linden: which doesn't make the crossing any faster, but may reduce lag spikes as witnessed by everyone else
[12:10] Kelly Linden: The threading change Simon mentioned moves vehicle serialization only into the same thread as agent serialization to fix a rare server crash mode due to a race condition serializing scripts in some very specific cases.
[12:10] Lucia Nightfire: ie, SEC-1204?
[12:10] Lucia Nightfire: btw, haven't had crashes for weeks in regards to that
[12:11] Andrew Linden: The only news I've got is regarding something we talked about a couple weeks ago... bypassing parcel autoreturn by using recursive self-rezzers.
[12:11] Kelly Linden: possibly related Lucy.
[12:11] Lucia Nightfire: you mean self-replicators as recurrsive rezzers still plaque the grid
[12:11] Andrew Linden: We discussed the possibility of only autoreturning unattended self-rezzers
[12:11] Lucia Nightfire: *plague
[12:11] Rex Cronon: so, replicators r no longer replicating
[12:11] Rex Cronon: ?
[12:11] Andrew Linden: however after an internal discussion we decided to not open up that exception
[12:12] Lucia Nightfire: from my lite testing non-rez-time refreshing self-replicating means fail
[12:12] Lucia Nightfire: if that makes sense
[12:12] Mona Eberhardt: Also, I've noticed that recently objects are failing to draw. They don't appear - and even with render metadata --> bounding boxes there's nothing to show they're there, but we collide with them. Anything about that?
[12:12] Andrew Linden: since it causes inconsistent behavior: different autoreturn times depending on whether the owner is present or not can lead to confusion
[12:13] Andrew Linden: and also it would bypass the spirit of the autoreturn feature which parcel owners are expecting -- that objects get autoreturned
[12:13] Lucia Nightfire: I still say we need a parcel setting that a land owner can check/uncheck for unattended rezzing
[12:14] Andrew Linden: Mona, truly invisible objects that collide but the viewer knows nothing about would be a bug that would get my attention.
[12:14] Rex Cronon: i gree with lucia
[12:14] Andrew Linden: If you have a way to reproduce it, then I'd start looking into it.
[12:14] Baker Linden: I'm finishing the last touches for group ban before I push it out to RC. It'll still be a few weeks, but I'm planning on having it on Aditi by the end of the month, that's all I got.
[12:15] Lucia Nightfire: I'm hesitant to release the extended parcel resource restriction feature request jira of mine as I'm afriad people will only focus on the ability to restrict instead of the benefits it gives land owners aside from proactively dealing with resource abuse
[12:16] Escapades Basic Bashables Stick 3.1 (WEAR ME!): releasing controls
[12:16] Kennylex Luckless: Darn, this still need to be fixed.
[12:16] Lucia Nightfire: as there are a lot of resource restriction abilities involved
[12:16] Andrew Linden: well the feature request is pretty much blocked until you release it for discussion, Lucia
[12:16] Tillie Ariantho: Group ban will be cool, for some time... :P There's griefer and copybotter groups you can ban in one go then.. ;)
[12:17] Whirly Fizzle: Any chance of a test viewer to poke at when it goes to Aditi Baker? :P
[12:17] Andrew Linden: even if you release it... there is no guarantee that it can be implemented
[12:17] Simon Linden: Lucy, I think we're most likely to take baby steps towards that rather than have a big overhaul adding lots of limits and checks, so if there are smaller ideas or features you can isolate, those might be better to look at
[12:17] Lucia Nightfire: yeah, I'm gonna have to cave and release it but probably in lite format
[12:17] Andrew Linden: some things are easy to say but hard to get done
[12:18] Lucia Nightfire: I do have a higher priority/more feasible portion of that list which is what I'll focus on, heh
[12:18] Andrew Linden: llDoWhatIMeanNotWhatISay()
[12:18] Baker Linden: Whirly, a test viewer will be provided :)
[12:18] Lucia Nightfire: llReadMyMind()
[12:18] Whirly Fizzle: AWesome :)
[12:18] Mona Eberhardt: llPutOuijaBoardOnTable
[12:19] TankMaster Finesmith: FSDoWhatLLMentAndNotWhatTheyDid
[12:19] Tillie Ariantho: I'd be happy with some llSetProjectorPropertiesFinally() ;)
[12:19] Petr Topaz: grr
[12:19] Mona Eberhardt: llChannelTheSpirits()
[12:19] ANSI Soderstrom: llEval(thisCode); would be also cool
[12:19] Qie Niangao: Tillie: coupled with llSetMaterialPropertiesAlready()
[12:19] Lucia Nightfire: so what else are you looking at to counter griefing Andrew?
[12:19] TankMaster Finesmith: that would always return false
[12:20] TankMaster Finesmith: ansi
[12:20] Tillie Ariantho: Qie: yes!
[12:20] ANSI Soderstrom: lol tankmaster
[12:20] Rex Cronon: btw. whta is wrong with the viewer? if u rotate the root in a linked set than all the other prims in the linked set rotate too. even if in edit window u choose "edit linked"
[12:20] ANSI Soderstrom: "Despite our best effort ..... try again at 21:12pst"...
[12:21] Andrew Linden: Lucia, I don't have a next project at the top of my list yet.
[12:21] Andrew Linden: My anti-grief work is sorta a side project, but then all three or four of my projects are on the side.
[12:21] Tillie Ariantho: Rex: and you only selected the root prim then? :)
[12:21] Kennylex Luckless: Minna is full of big mega prims left over from a grief, there should be a better way to be able to get a sim cleaned if oldies and, lifetime users do not want to set an auto return.
[12:21] Andrew Linden: I'm just trying to juggle several little projects at once.
[12:21] Rex Cronon: yes tillie
[12:22] Tillie Ariantho: Rex: then it's magic :D
[12:22] Rex Cronon: its borked magic:)
[12:22] ANSI Soderstrom: if the lifetime members would be alive @ kenny
[12:22] Tillie Ariantho: could be a bug too, but magic sound way better. :P
[12:23] Andrew Linden: The megaprims in Minna are encroaching on parcels? They could be returned that way.
[12:24] Andrew Linden: Is Minna completely LL owned? Or are there private parcels there?
[12:24] ANSI Soderstrom: they dont overlap the borders of our own land, so its not possible
[12:24] Lucia Nightfire: btw, theres still issues with returning prims encroaching from other regions
[12:24] Andrew Linden forgets what is on Minna.
[12:24] Lucia Nightfire: I have a prim encroaching into my own region I can't return
[12:24] ANSI Soderstrom: there is a lot of empty land from lifetimembers and so on, they arent online for a long time
[12:24] Kennylex Luckless: I has clean all I could, now it over land where users seldom are here.
[12:25] Andrew Linden: Hrm... Lucia I know of a few failure modes for prim encrochment return, but I'm curious as to which one is happening on your parcel.
[12:25] Lucia Nightfire: its a prim underground at the SE corner
[12:25] Kennylex Luckless: and some oldies do not care so much of SL so they know they can return prims by hand
[12:25] Adamburp Adamczyk: i LOVED that one where you can return over hanging ones
[12:25] Nalates Urriah: Yeah, there is one in my home region Fishergate too.
[12:25] Kennylex Luckless: I did spent 2 h cleaning by hand
[12:25] Andrew Linden: I'll try to go look at Minna to see if I can come up with some ideas on how to make that stuff removable.
[12:26] Kennylex Luckless: LL should define a Lifetime to 10y in SL :-)
[12:26] ANSI Soderstrom: the best way to detect a grief, is looking for single prims
[12:26] ANSI Soderstrom: if a user rez 200 single prims in one minute, its for sure a griefer
[12:27] ANSI Soderstrom: if there is a linked prim, then not
[12:27] Andrew Linden: Lucia, in what region is your encroached parcel located?
[12:27] Nalates Urriah: Or they are using an automatic weapon...
[12:27] Lucia Nightfire: Querqua
[12:27] ANSI Soderstrom: but they are temp
[12:27] Nalates Urriah: true
[12:27] Lucia Nightfire: object is encroaching from Oxitage
[12:27] Andrew Linden: ok thanks
[12:28] Nalates Urriah: The one we cannot return from Fishergate is anchored in Demelo.
[12:28] Andrew Linden: ANSI, there are some "legit" machine guns that rez faster than 200 prims/minute
[12:29] ANSI Soderstrom: yes, but temp prims @ andrew
[12:29] Lucia Nightfire: yeah, you have to do a little more evaling than just single prim rezzing
[12:29] ANSI Soderstrom: not keeping some hours on the sim
[12:29] Lucia Nightfire: like size for one, heh
[12:29] Andrew Linden: I can't remember if there is some bias in the grey goo fence against non-temp prims...
[12:29] Lucia Nightfire: temp on rez, two
[12:29] Andrew Linden: probably not
[12:29] Lucia Nightfire: owner present, three, heh
[12:30] Mona Eberhardt: Another thing that is basically griefing w/ objects is what AnnMarie Otoole does with her vehicles. See a description of her latest antics here: http://poultryreport.blogspot.it/2013/08/rolling-eyesores.html
[12:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[12:30] ANSI Soderstrom: they fill the sim, forth
[12:30] Lucia Nightfire: theres bias with rez from inventory
[12:30] Kennylex Luckless: Weapon thet rez bullets thet not is temp sound be called griefer tools.
[12:30] Lucia Nightfire: which is why illegal tpv's with a "fill sim feature can fill a region with single prism in seconds
[12:30] Lucia Nightfire: remotely even
[12:31] Lucia Nightfire: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SEC-1247
[12:32] Lucia Nightfire: which goes back to unattended rezzing
[12:32] Adamburp Adamczyk: I will speak up for anne o'toole, when I've reported her vehucles to hr, she's removed them
[12:32] Andrew Linden: Hrm... really fast rezzing by TPV's should be detectable server-side
[12:33] Lucia Nightfire: I've witnessed that filling on many occasion
[12:33] Lucia Nightfire: the server doesn't stop it
[12:34] Andrew Linden: Yeah, I know. Just musing that I could add detection
[12:34] Andrew Linden: however, there are probably a few TPV's that do some sort of content import that might run afoul of any new logic I add.
[12:34] Whirly Fizzle: Yeah I was just wondering about importing
[12:35] Andrew Linden: The TPV's might have to lower their rez rate for import
[12:35] Whirly Fizzle: I know in Firestorms import Tech added some kind of throttle so it didn't create prims too fast
[12:35] Lucia Nightfire: or not targe parcels the owner isn't on, wink
[12:35] Andrew Linden: however... if we drop it from taking only 1 second to say 5 seconds to fill the region... that doesn't help much
[12:36] Andrew Linden: we'd have to add pivot logic on user credentials and account age or something
[12:36] Lucia Nightfire: I think account age won't matter
[12:36] Lucia Nightfire: I've seen dated accounts using those tpv's
[12:36] ANSI Soderstrom: no payment info on file : no access to mailnad
[12:36] Lucia Nightfire: in my encoutners, its been 50/50 between aged and new accoutns using it
[12:37] Andrew Linden: its all an arms race, but still a race worth running sometimes
[12:37] ANSI Soderstrom: or no rezzing
[12:37] Rex Cronon: wait a little ansi. not everybody is a griefer:(
[12:37] Whirly Fizzle: Some of the aged accounts are possible hacked accounts too
[12:37] ANSI Soderstrom: not ?
[12:38] Qie Niangao: ANSI: I think the lesson is that if you wait long enough, everybody *will* be a griefer. :p
[12:38] Lucia Nightfire: lmao
[12:38] Kennylex Luckless: Well, LL slogan do describe a grief.
[12:38] Kennylex Luckless: Griefing: It all starts with a cube.
[12:38] ANSI Soderstrom: so we need a autodelete of avatars, no account should be older than 1 year
[12:38] ANSI Soderstrom: problem solved ;)
[12:38] ANSI Soderstrom: [joking]
[12:39] Lucia Nightfire: you can't stop griefing, you can only slow it or limit it
[12:39] Andrew Linden: On another subject... I was thinking about trying to resurrect my llSetUniformScaleFactor() project (or some better name) that would allow you to scale an entire linked object with one call.
[12:39] ANSI Soderstrom: first we have to detect it
[12:39] Adamburp Adamczyk: actually you just reminded me
[12:39] ANSI Soderstrom: all other is storytelling
[12:39] Lucia Nightfire: I think that was frowned on due to teh update cost
[12:39] Petr Topaz: hope we get a pension when we get deleted
[12:39] Adamburp Adamczyk: I meant to send a notice to my land grouop I';m changing the sim to payment info on fiel acces
[12:40] Andrew Linden: But it would need some helper functions: llGetMaxScaleFactor() and llGetMinScaleFactor() to tell you how much scaling is possible.
[12:40] Lucia Nightfire: which is why there is no root only pos/rot/scale
[12:40] Lucia Nightfire: scratch scale
[12:41] Andrew Linden: The viewer can scale an entire linked object in one operation -- it generates lots of object updates
[12:41] Andrew Linden: but doing it piecemeal produces the same number of updates.
[12:42] Lucia Nightfire: if we get root onyl pos and rot ability, I'm all for it, heh
[12:42] Andrew Linden: And, doing it piecemeal generates more physics shape rebuilds than just doing it all at once.
[12:42] Andrew Linden: What do you mean Lucia? "root only pos and rot ability" ?
[12:42] Lucia Nightfire: by script
[12:43] Lucia Nightfire: atm you can't only rot or pos, the root without the whole linsket rotating or positioning
[12:43] Lucia Nightfire: by script
[12:43] TankMaster Finesmith: lol rot ability... aka slow temp? after a while the prim pots away... :P
[12:44] TankMaster Finesmith: rots*
[12:44] Rex Cronon: and if u rotate the root manually all the other links rotate too even if u select "edit linked" in the edit window
[12:45] Andrew Linden: ok yes, but that is completely distinct from a uniform scale operation on the whole object
[12:45] Andrew Linden: you're just saying that root-only transform change should be of higher priority?
[12:45] Lucia Nightfire: not really, equally if anything esp if it costs teh same update wise
[12:46] Lucia Nightfire: I have use for both.
[12:46] Andrew Linden: ok, I'll ponder the root-only transform change
[12:46] Lucia Nightfire: resizing is sort of higher priority though from common usage
[12:46] Object: Hello, Avatar!
[12:47] Andrew Linden: I wrote the code for that a long time ago... but it was never hooked up to a script call.
[12:47] Whirly Fizzle: Rex, that doesn't happen for me btw
[12:47] Qie Niangao: Whirly: right, I can't get it to happen either
[12:47] Lucia Nightfire: I'm sure the clothing/show/hair market will thank you for the scalign function
[12:47] Lucia Nightfire: *shoe
[12:47] Whirly Fizzle: I think we would have been hearing builders screaming if it was heh
[12:48] Tillie Ariantho: Rex: "It's not the spoon that's bending." :P
[12:48] Lucia Nightfire: lmao
[12:48] Andrew Linden: ANSI, are you using 7 or 8 selection points to generate your heart shaped selection particles?
[12:48] Whirly Fizzle: What viewer are you on Rex?
[12:48] ANSI Soderstrom: who can see a difference
[12:49] Tillie Ariantho: The 1script-scaling seller will curse you. :P
[12:49] Lucia Nightfire: you might as well ask him his three sizes, Whirls, lol
[12:49] Tillie Ariantho: sellers
[12:49] Rex Cronon: ll's viewer
[12:49] Lucia Nightfire: nvm, heh
[12:50] ANSI Soderstrom: if(llGetMassFromObjectOwner(id) > 50% of SIM and he is no Groupmember) then its a jerk
[12:50] Lucia Nightfire: Andrew are you thinkign of putting in a delay in that function?
[12:50] Andrew Linden: which function?
[12:50] ANSI Soderstrom: if(numberOfObjects == NumberOfPrims) then he is a bad jerk
[12:50] Lucia Nightfire: I know recently that LL frowns on delays, but I think that particular one may need it for sanity sake
[12:50] Lucia Nightfire: the linkset scaler
[12:51] Andrew Linden: I dunno yet. I'll have to write the code first and see what kind of damage I can do.
[12:51] Lucia Nightfire: and when I say sanity I mean server/viewer/bandwidth
[12:51] Andrew Linden: I'd be more worried about update rates than actual physics shape changes.
[12:52] Andrew Linden: We already have some protection on abusive shape change rates.
[12:52] Lucia Nightfire: I'm already seeing apps it can be abused with, heh
[12:53] Lucia Nightfire: but thats how it goes
[12:53] Lucia Nightfire: anything good can be abused, heh
[12:53] Tillie Ariantho: You can abuse meshes too, still no one thinks of disabling uploads of meshes ...
[12:53] Andrew Linden: Don't we have llSetLinkPrimParamsFast() method or something? What's the throttle on that?
[12:54] Lucia Nightfire: speed of light minus 1
[12:54] Lucia Nightfire: ie, no delay
[12:54] Andrew Linden: light has a speed of 1
[12:54] Lucia Nightfire: right
[12:54] Tillie Ariantho: And if there's a delay in scaling, griefers will just link 255 prims, rezz 10 of them, and scale all those as fast as possible... they will always find a way to grief you quickly.
[12:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[12:55] Kennylex Luckless: 255 linked objects are easier to clean up.
[12:55] Tillie Ariantho: I mean, you need 1 mesh to drop anyones framerate to 0.01... :P
[12:55] Lucia Nightfire: you don't even need obejcts to drop framerate
[12:55] Lucia Nightfire: or to crash regions...
[12:56] Lucia Nightfire: which is sad...
[12:57] Kennylex Luckless: If it is that kind of hacker noob grief, but most griefers just want attetnion like PN and they to 90 % drop things in a sim.
[12:57] Lucia Nightfire: everyone wants attn
[12:58] Lucia Nightfire: so anything comign down the pipe thats intersting?
[12:58] ANSI Soderstrom: we need a algo to see if a linkset is "logical" formed of if the sizes of the prims, the rotation and position is "not logical"
[12:58] Mona Eberhardt: Good luck with that, ANSI.
[12:58] Andrew Linden: We need some advanced form of AI to perform that algorithm.
[12:59] Ima Mechanique: for what definition of "logical"? lol.
[12:59] Andrew Linden: Perhaps the AI would need an artistic eye.
[12:59] Mona Eberhardt: Exactly. And such algorithms will always be easy to fool and manipulate.
[12:59] ANSI Soderstrom: So we cant trust Lindens ?
[13:00] Ima Mechanique: many artist's eyes. how would it find abstract?
[13:00] ANSI Soderstrom: i thought they re our last hope
[13:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[13:00] TankMaster Finesmith: we can truse siman and adnrew! :P
[13:00] Kennylex Luckless: If it just stop old grief so griefer always has to work or pay, then it is good.
[13:00] Lucia Nightfire: old grief?
[13:01] Ima Mechanique: lol add griefing to benefits of a premium account
[13:01] Kennylex Luckless: LL should clean out images griefer use and let them upload again, let them wotk and pay, that is the trick.
[13:01] Lucia Nightfire: good luck getting overnance to blacklist any image for any reason
[13:02] Kennylex Luckless: Yes many grief are old code snippets and often same images in landfilling grief.
[13:02] Rex Cronon: u say the image is p0rn:)
[13:02] Simon Linden: I have to run - thanks everyone for coming this week
[13:02] Lucia Nightfire: laters
[13:02] Ima Mechanique: say it id kiddy-porn would work faster, course that might get you banned too
[13:03] ANSI Soderstrom: thanks for watching
[13:03] Andrew Linden: Yes, thanks for coming.
[13:03] Qie Niangao: Thanks Simon, all... have fun!
[13:03] Yuzuru Jewell: Thank you, Lindens.
[13:03] Petr Topaz: Byeee
[13:03] Mona Eberhardt whispers: Thanks for having us, Simon.
[13:03] Whirly Fizzle: Thanks Lindens
[13:03] Mona Eberhardt: Thanks Lindens.
[13:03] Nalates Urriah: Thx Lindens
[13:03] Ima Mechanique: thanks Lindens
[13:03] TankMaster Finesmith: i still think its funny that when we blocked FS 4.2.1 that we blocked a griffing viewer that was based on it :P
[13:03] Rex Cronon: tc simon
[13:03] Rex Cronon: tc andrew
[13:03] TankMaster Finesmith: tc simon, andrew, kelly
[13:03] Kennylex Luckless: Some time it is porn, but what I has seen on some griefer cobes do I not see as porn at all, they are just gross.
[13:03] Kennylex Luckless: tc
Simulator_User_Group
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