Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2012.07.31

Simulator_User_Group
Prev 2012.07.27	Next 2012.08.03
== List of Speakers ==
Acheron Gloom 	Andrew Linden 	Chalice Yao
Draconis Neurocam	Kennylex Luckless 	Motor Loon
Nalates Urriah 	NeoBokrug Elytis 	NikoKito Aries
No Monitor 	Qie Niangao 	Raven Juno
Simon Linden 	TankMaster Finesmith	Yume Kytori
== Transcript ==
[12:03] Andrew Linden: Ok, sorry I'm late. I totally forgot about user group today.
[12:03] Andrew Linden: I was busy looking into some code and got lost.
[12:03] Andrew Linden: News...
[12:04] NikoKito Aries: hello
[12:04] Andrew Linden: There is a neighbor connection problem in Magnum...
[12:04] Andrew Linden: if you are at high altitudes (where "high" means higher than your draw distance)
[12:05] Andrew Linden: then you may lose connection to neighbor regions
[12:05] Andrew Linden: if you stay up there for longer than about 60 seconds
[12:05] Andrew Linden: We're testing a fix for that today. It might even get into tomorrow's update.
[12:06] Nalates Urriah: If one was in a skybox would they notice the connection loss?
[12:06] Andrew Linden: Yes Nalates.
[12:07] Andrew Linden: So if you're just hanging out in a skybox in the middle of the region, and there is no content in the neighbor regions at the same altitude
[12:07] Andrew Linden: then you will lose connection to the neighbor, but might not notice
[12:07] Nalates Urriah: Thx
[12:07] Andrew Linden: but if you're in a skybox that has a bridge to a skybox in a neighbor region
[12:07] Andrew Linden: then you'll definitely notice it
[12:08] Andrew Linden: That's all the news I've got. I'm still looking into some interestlist stuff, but it isn't near completion.
[12:09] Andrew Linden: Go ahead Kelly or Simon, if you have any news.
[12:09] Simon Linden: For releases, the main channel was rolled with llTeleportAgent() and the other function (I forget) enabled
[12:09] Simon Linden: Otherwise there should be no changes
[12:09] Chalice Yao: When it comes to the teleport functions, I might want to draw your attention to a rather new JIRA related to them..
[12:10] Chalice Yao: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SCR-382
[12:10] JIRA-helper: [#SCR-382] llTeleportAgent() and llTeleportAgentGlobalCoords() can break any script in any attached object that contains a change event.
[12:10] NeoBokrug Elytis: Hahah wow.
[12:10] Chalice Yao: As a summary: attachment scripts saved and started in a non-magnum/letrige sim version break when testing teleport functions with unrelated attachments.
[12:10] Chalice Yao: seemingly if they contain a CHANGED_REGION check
[12:11] Chalice Yao: it only happens with intra-sim teleports tho. not between regions
[12:11] Simon Linden: I know Maestro was just trying to reproduce that and not able to see the bug -- I think he was going to ask for more examples or data
[12:11] Chalice Yao: so, when trying to reproduce, remember to save the script with the CHANGED_REGION check outside of letigre/magnum first.
[12:11] Chalice Yao nodnods. "I was commenting on it, and might try to make a script as small as possible where it reproduces.
[12:12] Chalice Yao: I'm not too sure yet, but it points at CHANGED_REGION..for..some reason.
[12:12] Simon Linden: ok - just be sure to put all that in the jira. It will get forwarded to the developer who's been working in that area
[12:12] Andrew Linden: It looks like maybe Maestro did find a repro recipe, as per the special instructions in his last comment.
[12:12] Andrew Linden reads it again to make sure...
[12:12] Simon Linden: ah, ok. It sounds like we'll have one soon if we don't already, so it will get attention
[12:13] Chalice Yao: I'll try to put something together after this, later.
[12:14] Simon Linden: That's all the news I have
[12:15] Andrew Linden: No, I think maybe Maestro was suggesting a tip that might help avoid an attempt that would be doomed to fail reproduction, but did not clinch the repro recipe.
[12:15] Andrew Linden: Ok, the table is open.
[12:16] Draconis Neurocam: if baker is looking for random bugs to fix, this still happens, viewer bug though https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-28308?
[12:16] JIRA-helper: [#VWR-28308] Female Avatar Torso Muscles Bug
[12:16] Nalates Urriah: From Oskar's comment in the Deploys thread I get the impresion the permission in use for Creator Tools is not the planned final permissions system. Is that right?
[12:17] Andrew Linden: I don't think so. Baker is still working on the "cannot edit group members of very large groups" bug.
[12:17] Draconis Neurocam: ah
[12:17] Andrew Linden: Which is much harder than he suspected.
[12:17] Draconis Neurocam: understandable
[12:17] TankMaster Finesmith: oh, did i hear right that "restore to last position" was removed?
[12:18] Motor Loon: huh?
[12:18] Motor Loon: hope not
[12:18] Raven Juno: Excuse me what now?
[12:18] Motor Loon: I use that all the time
[12:18] Simon Linden: That was removed from the Linden viewer a while ago, I think
[12:18] Raven Juno: Is it time for me to kill myself? I feel as if it may be...
[12:18] TankMaster Finesmith: seems i recall some talks about it, but i havent had time to look into it
[12:18] Motor Loon: ah you should put that back... it's rather useful
[12:19] Andrew Linden: What is the best way to do a 5min db query on a group with 40k members, and then send the 2MB+ over UDP without losing too much data or killing the query process which has a 5 min watchdog timer.
[12:19] Andrew Linden: ?
[12:19] TankMaster Finesmith: actually, its still in the linden viewer afaik, just no UI elimit for it
[12:19] Simon Linden: It's also rather dangerous - lots of stuff was getting lost and causing support calls
[12:19] Motor Loon: Probably "to not to" Andrew
[12:19] Andrew Linden: "restore last position" of object that was taken to inventory?
[12:19] Raven Juno: Best feature invented for builders... or just idiots like me w ho return things :[
[12:19] TankMaster Finesmith: convert it to HTTP, andrew :P
[12:19] Simon Linden: I think it really needs work - it is a great feature, I agree
[12:20] TankMaster Finesmith: yes, andrew
[12:20] Andrew Linden: Yeah TankMaster, we're actually kinda moving to HTTP, however the HTTP connection can timeout too (before the 5min is up).
[12:20] Motor Loon: compress it so it's not 2MB+ ?
[12:20] Andrew Linden: So, we're working around that issue.
[12:21] Andrew Linden: Yeah, compression is possible for an HTTP send.
[12:21] TankMaster Finesmith: HTTP will at least have enharent retry if a packet is lost/damanged
[12:21] Motor Loon: or keep the list serverside - and only send the names the viewer needs for the part of the list thats showing?
[12:22] Qie Niangao: that seems the only scalable solution
[12:22] Andrew Linden: I haven't happened across the "restore last position" code in the simulator yet, btw, which I find mildly surprising.
[12:22] Andrew Linden: Hence my amazement that it actually works ;-)
[12:23] Andrew Linden: "There is no evicence because I have not seen the code."
[12:23] Motor Loon: isnt last position just stores as part of the objects asset?
[12:24] Andrew Linden: sure, but the must be code in the simulator that checks to see if it should restore position, and then extracts that info and uses it
[12:24] Simon Linden: I think so, Motor. It works well as long as you're on the same region, and nobody has changed the terrain or put new objects in conflicting places
[12:24] Simon Linden: ... or changed the parcel layout
[12:24] Motor Loon: yeah, works too if you go to another region... but ofcourse it wont end up where you picked it up
[12:24] Motor Loon: but that can be a good thing too
[12:24] Motor Loon: for moving stuff from one region to another
[12:24] Andrew Linden: I'm just sayin'... I should find the code and thereby establish my belief.
[12:25] Simon Linden: Right - those are all the situations that end badly with a call to support
[12:25] Motor Loon: and maintaining the placements with the regions
[12:26] Simon Linden: yep, that too
[12:26] Raven Juno: ITs really helpfull for sim builders who don't want to interupt the daily traffic of a sim. easy transfering to just restore it and move on :|
[12:27] Andrew Linden: anyway... is there a problem with "restore last position"?
[12:27] Andrew Linden reads back...
[12:27] Draconis Neurocam: tankmaster was worried it was going to be removed from the server code
[12:27] Draconis Neurocam: i think
[12:28] Simon Linden: Well, we dont' support it any more - it was yanked a while ago from the Linden viewer
[12:28] No Monitor: Why not just put a code where when you someone click on restore last position and it's on a different sim then there's an error saying,"restore failed" or something similar to that.
[12:28] Andrew Linden: ah yes, so I see
[12:28] Simon Linden: I haven't heard anything about blocking the functionality
[12:28] Qie Niangao: or a debug setting that allowed restoring to other sims, defaulted to FALSE
[12:28] TankMaster Finesmith: ok, was just checking
[12:29] TankMaster Finesmith: our users would not be happy if that function was lost
[12:29] TankMaster Finesmith: :D
[12:29] Andrew Linden: If one were to rez an object with that setting, and you didn't know it, then it would be pretty easy to "lose" the object -- it wouldn't show up where you expected it to be
[12:29] Qie Niangao: (assuming the asset knows what sim it came from in the first place)
[12:29] Raven Juno: rage quitting ahoy.
[12:30] Acheron Gloom: I think I lost a narwhal once when I accidentally restored to last position and didn't realize it. This was a long time ago.
[12:30] Acheron Gloom: (No copy)
[12:30] Andrew Linden: Ah, the legendary narwal. They are shy or so I've heard.
[12:30] No Monitor: Surely the object will recognize where the avatar is?
[12:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[12:31] Raven Juno: Prompt a warning when returning no copy items? simmilar to the one you get when sending someone a no copy item? Solves everything.
[12:31] TankMaster Finesmith: not a bad idea
[12:31] Raven Juno: Hey look i said something worth saying for once. \o/
[12:32] TankMaster Finesmith: now... you want to submit a patch? :P
[12:32] Andrew Linden: You mean prompt a warning when "restoring" no copy items? or when returning someone elses no copy items?
[12:32] Raven Juno: when restoring
[12:32] No Monitor: Or just rezzing no copy items in general.
[12:32] TankMaster Finesmith: you can only restore your own items
[12:32] Raven Juno: so they don't loose their narwhals forever :3
[12:33] Simon Linden: How about telling people where it ended up?
[12:33] No Monitor: If it's possible.
[12:33] Simon Linden: Maybe setting the beacon or something
[12:33] Motor Loon: that might be good... a little line in localchat saying "Restored to position x,y,z..."
[12:33] Andrew Linden: but the narwal should have existed somewhere, and eventually be found, or else returned to your lost+found
[12:33] Draconis Neurocam: that would be nice, even just a simulator message, restoring to x,y,z
[12:33] Simon Linden: Well, the sim knows where it went. If its outside of the view range, you might not get updates about it
[12:33] Andrew Linden: unless it was a failed rez that also incorrectly deleted the no-copy item from inventory
[12:34] Raven Juno: Just send them a slurl to where it was placed when they place it..?
[12:34] Andrew Linden: (that would be a rez bug)
[12:34] Acheron Gloom: I'm honestly not sure what ever happened to the narwhal. It might still be rezzed in some sim...
[12:34] TankMaster Finesmith: im not sure if he viewer know where it gets rezzed, especually if its out of DD
[12:34] Acheron Gloom: But, I think a prompt for all, or just no-copy, objects would be nice. And an output to local chat on its position. Beacon would be good, too, for a visual indicator.
[12:34] Andrew Linden: Hrm... sending a slurl notice might be useful, especially if it was beyond some threshold from the avatar, or else not within immediate view.
[12:34] Acheron Gloom: If its possible.
[12:36] Raven Juno: Thats it. stop everything. Revert to backup power and Do a grid wide search for the narwhal!
[12:36] Acheron Gloom: :)
[12:36] Andrew Linden: We have a little red arrow for when your destination beacon is out of view, but no mechanism for other beacons that are not in view.
[12:36] TankMaster Finesmith: the prompting of "are you sure you want to do this" followed by a promites" are you really sure?" is something thats quite doable
[12:37] Raven Juno: Then it rezzes half of the item takes it back and prompts again with are you REALLY really sure?
[12:37] No Monitor: Or just have a pop up when rezzing any type of no copy object.
[12:38] Andrew Linden: Are we still holding a viewer user group these days?
[12:38] Draconis Neurocam: no
[12:38] Motor Loon: I don't mind the "Are you an idiot?" questions, aslong as I can turn them off
[12:38] NeoBokrug Elytis: I agree
[12:39] Simon Linden: There's an open-source developer user group, but I don't know if there's a general viewer features one
[12:39] TankMaster Finesmith: it is
[12:39] Andrew Linden: Oh ok. I was going to say: those alert feature requests are viewer side features.
[12:39] Draconis Neurocam: yeah oz just asks you for patches if you propose fixing viewer bugs
[12:39] TankMaster Finesmith: next one is thursday at 1 i think, hippotropolis
[12:40] Andrew Linden: Talking about them are interesting, but the LL devs here are probably not going to be able to get them done.
[12:41] TankMaster Finesmith: passes the time :D
[12:41] Qie Niangao: on a different subject... I've noticed that it can be impossible to unlink a prim from a linkset if any part of that linkset encroaches on land where I can't build. That can be pretty inconvenient.
[12:41] Andrew Linden: Yeah that is true Qie.
[12:41] Andrew Linden: Anybody have a suggestion on what should happen instead of failed unlink?
[12:42] Motor Loon: Inconvenient is not always a bad thing though
[12:42] TankMaster Finesmith: delete the object?
[12:42] TankMaster Finesmith: :P
[12:42] Draconis Neurocam: unlink only the parts on the buildable land
[12:42] Andrew Linden: hehe TankMaster
[12:42] Qie Niangao: well, it would be more calculating, but yeah: if I could unlink the parts on buildable land, I'd be happy
[12:42] Andrew Linden: technically possible Draconis
[12:42] Andrew Linden: the overlapping piece would have to remain linked to the root
[12:42] Andrew Linden: pieces
[12:42] Draconis Neurocam: right
[12:42] Motor Loon: Display a link to nearest sandbox with plenty of space?
[12:43] Draconis Neurocam: andrew that is fair
[12:43] Qie Niangao: well, that's what I've been doing. Been a long time since I've seen a sandbox. :p
[12:43] Motor Loon: It's good to get out a bit
[12:43] Andrew Linden: Yeah... the computation for that would be somewhat complicated... each piece to be unlinked would have be transformed into local space, given a shape
[12:44] Qie Niangao: Motor: Oh, sure. Next you'll be telling me to visit InfoHubs. :p
[12:44] Andrew Linden: and then we'd have to check for piece-parcel collisions
[12:44] Andrew Linden: keep a list of successes and failures
[12:44] Motor Loon: Thats only for the brave and fearless Qie
[12:45] Qie Niangao: so, it wasn't nearly that fussy before... I guess this is to prevent unlinking and leaving stuff wholly across the border -- and that's a good thing, true.
[12:45] Andrew Linden: so yeah, possible. Not incredibly hard. Slightly expensive check for very large objects with lots of concave pieces.
[12:45] TankMaster Finesmith: yeay for megaprims....
[12:45] Motor Loon: Put a 10l$ fee on it Andrew lol
[12:46] Andrew Linden: ha! yeah, make the fancy check premium only!
[12:46] Motor Loon: lmao
[12:46] Qie Niangao: works for me. :p
[12:46] TankMaster Finesmith: lol
[12:47] TankMaster Finesmith: "want to edit your linksets? upgrade to premium today!"
[12:47] Andrew Linden: lol
[12:47] Motor Loon: "So what do I get for my premium account fees?" Linden: "You get to unlink stuff on your neighbors property and make a mess.."
[12:47] Draconis Neurocam: if you turned off push restrictions for premium members, might see a lot of old members upgrading
[12:48] Motor Loon: ooh that too
[12:48] No Monitor: If you allow many things, old members will be upgrading straight away.
[12:48] Andrew Linden: There you go. We could open up grief modes for premium members. And then ban members who abuse them.
[12:49] Motor Loon: Only premiums have access to greifing - but they don't use it in fear of loosing their premium account.... perfect setup!
[12:49] Acheron Gloom: I like it.
[12:49] Yume Kytori: I have a question concerning the marketplace.
[12:49] TankMaster Finesmith: lol andrew, nice idea
[12:49] TankMaster Finesmith: non refundable to, right?
[12:49] Raven Juno: Premium is really not all that worth it anymore. :[
[12:49] Acheron Gloom: Well, hey, the experience permissions aren't out yet...
[12:49] Andrew Linden: Go ahead and ask Yume, however we might not know the answer here.
[12:49] TankMaster Finesmith: could also make it that you cant log in to turn off premium...
[12:49] Motor Loon is premium.... watch out!
[12:50] Raven Juno: All premium members should get a free narwhal when signing up. That would make it worth it. :3
[12:50] Motor Loon: mmm narwhales are tasty with ketchup
[12:50] Acheron Gloom: D:
[12:50] Raven Juno: D:
[12:50] Acheron Gloom: ;_;
[12:50] Raven Juno: ;A;
[12:50] Yume Kytori: With the transfer to the direct delivery there were some issues that came up like people's pictures getting swapped about and all that. With my shop, I'm still noticing items not even in my box anymore, showing up on the website with the wrong pictures. Is there going to be a fix for that? Or is there one and I just totally missed it?
[12:51] No Monitor: Actually, I think that premium membership should be more because really at the moment it's really not worth signing up for.
[12:51] Motor Loon: I'd say less benefits + cheaper price
[12:51] Simon Linden: Yume - I've heard of that bug and know someone was looking at it, but that's all I recall now
[12:52] Kennylex Luckless: premium membership should give user ability to use extra strong face lights.
[12:52] Andrew Linden: I haven't heard about it... lemme forward the question internally to see if anyone answers...
[12:52] Motor Loon: oh! and sparkles!
[12:52] Acheron Gloom: Since we're getting toward the end, I'm just going to link a few jiras I've perused/made recently :3
[12:52] Motor Loon looks at Kelly... hmm... I thought it was dark inhere today
[12:52] Acheron Gloom: See what you guys think
[12:52] No Monitor: Even some of the benefits you get are slghtly disappointing.
[12:52] Acheron Gloom: SCR-381 and SCR-378
[12:52] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SCR-381
[#SCR-381] New Physics Shape Types - Bounding Boxes, Bounding Spheres, Bounding Cylinders, maybe more.
[12:52] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SCR-378
[#SCR-378] llSetStatus - STATUS_DIE_ON_AUTO_RETURN or STATUS_DIE_ON_RETURN
[12:53] Raven Juno: Its not. i sadly canceled my premium because what you get for the price isn't worth it anymore... Something more really should be offered to them. I was using premium for the support but then when my account got hacked i got told then nothing would be done. so really. Do they even get support still?
[12:53] Raven Juno: ;A;
[12:54] TankMaster Finesmith: LL could use a structured volentier support system, like some of the TPVs use
[12:54] Motor Loon premium only to support LL's annual company picknic. I think a whole day with no lindens around where we can't go nuts and cause havok is all worth it
[12:54] Raven Juno: I would volunteer to help out. because I'm cool like that :U
[12:55] Motor Loon: and that scr-378 is very interesting btw
[12:55] Andrew Linden: hrm... STATUS_DIE_ON_*RETURN sounds like enhanced temp-on-rez... although I guess the objects would count against normal parcel resources
[12:56] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[12:56] Motor Loon: sure
[12:56] Simon Linden: would that apply to no-copy objects too?
[12:56] Motor Loon: Could be lots of usecases where it's annoying to get an "object returned" message
[12:56] Motor Loon: and the nature of the object aint suited for making it temp-on-rez
[12:57] Andrew Linden: Yume, I forwarded your question to an internal channel and got an answer back:
[12:57] Andrew Linden: it sounds like they will be posting an update about that problem in the "commerce forum" soon
[12:57] Andrew Linden: or at least, any updates to it will be posted there
[12:57] Acheron Gloom: Yeah. I have things that use ~10 temp rezzed objects that have to be rerezzed every minute...
[12:58] Acheron Gloom: otherwise the user gets spammed with "auto returned etc etc"
[12:58] Acheron Gloom: Also: SVC-5038 reopened
[12:58] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-5038
[#SVC-5038] PRIM_REGION_POS - use llSetPrimitiveParms to position an object anywhere in the sim.
[12:58] Acheron Gloom: err wrong jira
[12:58] Acheron Gloom: I like that jira though!
[12:58] Acheron Gloom: This one reopened: SVC-7348
[12:58] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7348
[#SVC-7348] moving_end() event executes on moving, script-rezzed physical objects
[12:58] Acheron Gloom: I'm sure you guys knew that internally, but I just wanted to make sure.
[12:59] Raven Juno: Totally not related. but If i post a jira complaining that I don't have a gameboy color.. will someone buy me one? Thanks :3
[12:59] Yume Kytori: Commerce forums?
[12:59] Raven Juno: This is clearly SL's biggest problem
[12:59] Raven Juno: Lack of handheld for Fawx.
[12:59] Andrew Linden: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Commerce-Forum/ct-p/CommerceForum
[13:00] Yume Kytori: Thank you, Andrew.
[13:00] Andrew Linden: Thanks Archeron. Yeah Maestro commented on SVC-7348.
[13:00] Acheron Gloom nods
[13:00] Andrew Linden: I wonder what channel that bug was renoticed.
[13:00] Andrew Linden: That is... I'm wondering if it was reintroduced in pathfinding.
[13:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[13:01] Acheron Gloom: It wasn't
[13:01] Acheron Gloom: I've noticed it for a long time but I was silly and assumed you guys just didn't fix it
[13:01] Acheron Gloom: then I saw the 'fix pending' jira
[13:01] Acheron Gloom: and I posted, and Imed Maestro
[13:01] Andrew Linden: ok
[13:02] Simon Linden: I have to run --- thanks everyone for coming today
[13:02] Acheron Gloom: See ya, Simon!
[13:02] Acheron Gloom: Thank /you/ for coming.
[13:02] Draconis Neurocam: thanks simon, andrew, and baker
[13:02] Acheron Gloom: Though maybe you have to.
[13:02] Andrew Linden: Yup. Thanks everyone.
[13:02] Acheron Gloom: Oh well, I'll thank you all anyway.
[13:02] TankMaster Finesmith: have a good week you guys
[13:02] Qie Niangao: Thanks all... have fun
[13:02] Motor Loon: Tc all
[13:02] Nalates Urriah: bye
Simulator_User_Group
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