Beta Server Office Hours/Minutes/2012-05-17

Category:Beta Server Office Hours - Minutes
This meeting was held on May 17, 2012
== Agenda ==
=== Updates ===
* No main channel update.
** RC last week had a high crash rate and was rolled back.
* Threaded region crossing has been fixed and is on LeTigre and Magnum
* Region Idling was enabled on BlueSteel
** http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Region-Idling-coming-to-Second-Life/td-p/15354... .
** FAQ: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Region-Idling-FAQ/td-p/1535497
** Simon is here.
* Second Life Server Channel
* No Main Channel update
** https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Second_Life_Server/12#12.04.30.255166
* BlueSteel RC Channel
* Region Idling enabled
** http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Region-Idling-coming-to-Second-Life/td-p/15354... .
** FAQ: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Region-Idling-FAQ/td-p/1535497
** https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Second_Life_RC_BlueSteel/12#12.04.30.255166
* LeTigre RC Channel
* This is the Threaded Region Crossing project.
** Now less crashy!
** https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Second_Life_RC_LeTigre/12#12.05.11.256527
* Magnum RC Channel
* This is the Threaded Region Crossing project also.
** https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Second_Life_RC_Magnum/12#12.05.11.256527
* PathFinding User Group right after this meeting.
=== Upcoming Stuff ===
=== Interesting Stuff ===
* Pathfinding Beta Regions Live on AGNI
** https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Pathfinding_Public_Beta
=== Transcript ===
Transcript of Oskar Linden's Server Beta User Group for May 17, 2012:
* [15:00] Stickman Ingmann: Hi Oskar!
* [15:00] Motor Loon: and Maestro.. elloo
* [15:00] Maestro Linden: howdy
* [15:00] Oskar Linden: good day to you all
* [15:01] Sigma Avro: hello Oskar
* [15:01] Sigma Avro: and Maestro
* [15:01] Oskar Linden: how is everyone today?
* [15:01] Homeless: hi oskar
* [15:01] Theresa Tennyson: I"m fine...
* [15:01] Homeless: very good
* [15:01] NeoBokrug Elytis: Desire naps.
* [15:01] Oskar Linden: good weather wherever each of you are?
* [15:01] Sigma AvroSigma Avro searching path
* [15:01] Homeless: sunny and warm in Chicago
* [15:01] Motor LoonMotor Loon just had bacon... so everythings good
* [15:01] Moundsa Mayo: Wellll, ... since you asked ... it all started a loooonggg ... no, NM.
* [15:02] Theresa Tennyson: Okay, is anyone else getting repeated lines of text?
* [15:02] Oskar Linden: no
* [15:02] Coyot Linden: hi everyone
* [15:02] Oskar Linden: no
* [15:02] Oskar Linden: no
* [15:02] Sigma Avro: wrotten spirng here in belgium
* [15:02] Oskar Linden: ;-)
* [15:02] Oskar Linden: Seattle is pretty nice today
* [15:02] Oskar Linden: sunny and warm
* [15:02] Latif Khalifa: hello
* [15:02] TheBlack Box: hi
* [15:02] Oskar Linden: so before we get started how many of you started playing Diablo 3 this week?
* [15:02] Sigma AvroSigma Avro looking for ticket price
* [15:03] Multi Gadget v1.57.1Multi Gadget v1.57.1 by Timeless Prototype
* [15:03] Yuzuru Jewell: JaJapan is fine. Good morning.
* [15:03] Motor Loon: noooo... one addictive "game" is enough for me
* [15:03] Jonathan YapJonathan Yap has not heard about Diablo 1
* [15:03] Oskar Linden: :-)
* [15:03] Oskar Linden: WHAT?!
* [15:03] Coyot Linden: Diablo humor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I43GUnZN_s4
* [15:03] Ov Dos Hat New!: IF DIABLO 3 WERE A GIRL
* [15:03] SonicAnd Miles: o.O
* [15:03] Latif KhalifaLatif Khalifa was having fun with the new portal 2 level editor and community levels
* [15:03] Oskar Linden: what hole do you live in Jonathan?
* [15:03] SonicAnd Miles: LOL
* [15:03] Jonathan Yap: A small hole Oskar
* [15:03] NeoBokrug Elytis: With the mole men.
* [15:04] Orion ZenoriaOrion Zenoria dies laughing
* [15:04] Sigma Avro: hello Coyot
* [15:04] Coyot Linden: hi
* [15:04] Motor Loon: ey simon
* [15:04] Oskar Linden: ugh video making sl slow
* [15:04] Oskar Linden: ok
* [15:04] Oskar Linden: thanks coyot
* [15:04] Oskar Linden: :-)
* [15:04] Coyot Linden: MISSION ACOMPLISHED
* [15:05] Coyot LindenCoyot Linden puts on a jet fighter suit
* [15:05] Oskar Linden: ok so here is the agenda: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Server_Beta_User_Group
* [15:05] Oskar Linden: starting at the top
* [15:05] Oskar Linden: this weeks releases
* [15:05] Oskar Linden: no main channel deploy
* [15:05] Oskar Linden: *sadface*
* [15:05] Rex Cronon: greetings everybody
* [15:06] Oskar Linden: the RC was too crashy last week
* [15:06] Coyot Linden: but
* [15:06] Sigma Avro: hi Rex
* [15:06] Oskar Linden: so we had to pull it
* [15:06] Oskar Linden: and nothing to promote to main channel this week
* [15:06] Motor Loon: back to the drawing board
* [15:06] Coyot Linden: but
* [15:06] Rex Cronon: hi sigma
* [15:06] NeoBokrug Elytis: Flip the switches from broken to fixed.
* [15:06] Stickman Ingmann: I had some questions about region idling that Simon Linden didn't answer fully on the forum if you know the answers, Oskar.
* [15:06] Oskar Linden: but what coyot?
* [15:06] Rex Cronon: as long as this keeps the main from crahsing...
* [15:06] Oskar Linden: hold on stickman
* [15:06] Coyot Linden: we took advantage of the Tuesday gap
* [15:06] Stickman Ingmann: I can wait, just saying.
* [15:06] Oskar Linden: agenda. remember ? :-)
* [15:06] Coyot Linden: to do more rebalancing
* [15:06] Coyot Linden: so that should increase uptime
* [15:06] Motor Loon: rebalancing?
* [15:07] Coyot Linden: and decrease crashiness
* [15:07] Oskar Linden: we've gone over it here before
* [15:07] Oskar Linden: rebalancing busy sims onto non busy hosts
* [15:07] Motor Loon: aah
* [15:07] Oskar Linden: balancing
* [15:07] Motor Loon: yes
* [15:07] Oskar Linden: and putting physically close in world sims near each other in the datacenters
* [15:07] Coyot Linden: carry on Oskar, thanks for letting me jump in
* [15:07] Oskar Linden: sure
* [15:07] Oskar Linden: it makes a huge difference
* [15:08] Oskar Linden: but with time drift happens
* [15:08] Sigma Avro: sounds logical
* [15:08] Motor Loon: is this manual work or automated?
* [15:08] Oskar Linden: so we need to rebalance
* [15:08] Oskar Linden: manuatomated
* [15:08] Coyot LindenCoyot Linden wants a shirt that says "Drift Happens"
* [15:08] Oskar Linden: it takes hand holding
* [15:08] Theresa TennysonTheresa Tennyson pictures servers moving like unbalanced washing machines.
* [15:08] Coyot Linden: awwww
* [15:08] NeoBokrug Elytis: Physically close, or neighboring?
* [15:08] Coyot Linden: ha, Theresa
* [15:08] Sigma Avro: balance is nt permant. So we here discover dynamic balance
* [15:09] Coyot Linden: Neo: making one mean the other
* [15:09] NeoBokrug Elytis: Because if there's a homestead with nothing attached it, there's no reason group it together with others.
* [15:09] Homeless: when servers start waiting tables that may be a sign something is wrong.
* [15:09] Oskar Linden: once again Threaded Region crossing is at the starting gate
* [15:09] Coyot Linden: making neighbors close physically
* [15:09] NeoBokrug Elytis: Hooray!
* [15:09] Coyot Linden: yes, the algorithm knows about islands
* [15:09] Sigma Avro: is that on Simon head the threated crossing ?
* [15:09] Motor Loon: still no active code on the crossing stuff?
* [15:09] Oskar Linden: we fixed the crashes from last week
* [15:10] Oskar Linden: no active code
* [15:10] Motor Loon: k
* [15:10] Oskar Linden: well not entirely true
* [15:10] Oskar Linden: but yeah
* [15:10] Oskar Linden: the enhancements aren't added
* [15:10] Oskar Linden: it's phase 1
* [15:10] Coyot Linden: again
* [15:10] Coyot Linden: :(
* [15:11] Oskar Linden: but on BlueSteel we have something esciting
* [15:11] Oskar Linden: exciting
* [15:11] Oskar Linden: that is the Region Idling project we enabled
* [15:11] Sigma Avro: Heavily scripted, I have 1 second for sim crossing. What is the target ?
* [15:11] Coyot Linden: o/
* [15:11] Oskar Linden: details here: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Region-Idling-coming-to-Second-Life/td-p/15354
* [15:11] Oskar Linden: and a FAQ here: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Region-Idling-FAQ/td-p/1535497
* [15:11] Motor Loon: we're being good patient residents aren't we?
* [15:11] Oskar Linden: have you all read those?
* [15:11] Will Webb: region idling; will that affect SL based server objects?
* [15:11] Latif Khalifa: "The message you are trying to access is not available."
* [15:11] Motor Loon: yes
* [15:11] Hitomi Tiponi: is anyone here on a Blue Steel sim a lot?
* [15:11] Oskar Linden: yes Will
* [15:11] Homeless: yes
* [15:12] Hitomi Tiponi: any noticable changes?
* [15:12] Sigma Avro: this idling had another name last year
* [15:12] Oskar Linden: regions that have no residents on them or looking on them will go idle
* [15:12] Will Webb: and we dont consider that slightly problematic? i can see the fallout already
* [15:12] Motor Loon: I'm kinda amazed we haven't gotten idle'ing until now really °͜°
* [15:12] Oskar Linden: Simon has been working on it
* [15:12] Hitomi Tiponi: it does make sense
* [15:12] Homeless: heh.. my yes was for the did you read question
* [15:12] Oskar Linden: it's already enabled Will and is working well
* [15:13] Oskar Linden: Simon is here to answer any questions you might still have
* [15:13] Will Webb: no major issues with vendors not being able to contact distribution servers or other such ?
* [15:13] Oskar Linden: overall so far the response has been positive
* [15:13] Sigma Avro: stuff runing on sim will not rn when no one on it ?
* [15:13] Maestro Linden: it will run
* [15:13] Oskar Linden: certain LSL calls will spin the region back up instantly will
* [15:13] Maestro Linden: read the FAQ :)
* [15:13] Simon Linden: No Will, and we're specifically checking vendors on BlueSteel regions
* [15:13] Stickman Ingmann: Hi Simon. o/
* [15:13] Will Webb: kk :-)
* [15:13] Theresa Tennyson: It's idling like a car idles - the motor runs, just turns slower.
* [15:13] Sigma Avro: am reading the talk here Maestro
* [15:14] Latif Khalifa: Do you have any numbers on how many SL regiosn will end up idling?
* [15:14] Coyot Linden: exactly, Theresa
* [15:14] Stickman Ingmann: If a region idles and there's no avatars around to hear it, does it make any lag?
* [15:14] Will Webb: and on the other side of the spectrum, no worries on savvy scripters running those LSL calls to keep their objects running at speed?
* [15:14] Coyot Linden: YES, It does
* [15:14] TheBlack Box: only LSL calls that communicate to the outside will un-idle a sim, right ?
* [15:14] Simon Linden: That's correct
* [15:14] Motor Loon: LSL timers affected in any way?
* [15:14] Stickman Ingmann: Is there a list of LSL calls that spin a region back up?
* [15:14] Maestro Linden: that's possible, Will. Or somebody could have a bot sit in the region.
* [15:14] Will Webb: is that outside the sim, or outside SL alltogehter?
* [15:15] Will Webb: i'm just thinking we need to monitor whether the cure couldnt be worse than the disease should it get gamed a lot
* [15:15] Stickman Ingmann: I imagine the first priority of region idling is to make it work. Detecting people abusing it is secondary.
* [15:15] Motor Loon: There shouldn't be any point in trying to "get around" your sims going idle....
* [15:15] Maestro Linden: the short list is LSL email, HTTP, xmlrpc, or anything that triggers the dataserver event
* [15:15] Sigma Avro: How slow will be going out of idle ?
* [15:15] Maestro Linden: I think that's it?
* [15:15] Will Webb: it's like the scanner range limit or email limit just being bypassed by even laggier tech
* [15:16] Maestro Linden: 0ms sigma
* [15:16] Sigma Avro: ah !?
* [15:16] TheBlack Box: for how long will such a call unidle the sim ?
* [15:16] Will Webb: yeah, what blackbox said
* [15:16] Simon Linden: A few seconds
* [15:16] Motor Loon: "a few seconds"
* [15:16] Motor Loon: ups... ecco
* [15:16] TheBlack Box: so i put one of them into a timer to keep a sim awake ... fair enough
* [15:17] NeoBokrug Elytis: So... To me it doesn't sound like regions are going to idle a lot given SLs dynamic content. Are regions idling well as it is?
* [15:17] Latif Khalifa: tbb, why would you want to do that?
* [15:17] Motor Loon: no reason to keep it awake box...
* [15:17] Stickman Ingmann: Simon, the framerate in an idled region drops down to 8-10fps you said. Is frame time still limited to 0.022-ish seconds per frame, or is frame time increased?
* [15:17] Motor Loon: it's like saying you want your car to keep its engine running while its parked in your garage
* [15:17] TheBlack Box: Latif: for example my current project is about simulated evolution .... i want it to keep evolveng when i am not around
* [15:17] Latif Khalifa: "awake" is a wrong word. more like runningn full speed
* [15:17] Sigma Avro: As for sim resource sharing, is that perfomed by grop of 8 sims ?
* [15:17] Maestro Linden: Stickman: it would be doing its usual work for 22ms, then sleep 100ms after each frame
* [15:17] Stickman Ingmann: Box, how do your scripts work? On a timer? If the timer is 0.2 seconds or higher, you won't even notice idling.
* [15:18] Will Webb: another one: does the sim wake up on av entry, or when a child agent is registered?
* [15:18] Simon Linden: The full frame time is roughly 100ms, Stickman. But it gives a bit extra back to scripts...
* [15:18] Maestro Linden: so a frame would start every 122ms, so the FPS goes to ~8.2
* [15:19] Sigma Avro: answer to Will question ?
* [15:19] Simon Linden: Some of that additional 100ms is given to scripts -- about 25, I believe
* [15:19] Maestro Linden: child agents wake up a sim, will
* [15:19] NeoBokrug Elytis: But physical things would slow down, things depending on collision events and the like?
* [15:19] Simon Linden: up to 25, I mean
* [15:19] Will Webb: okay
* [15:19] Maestro Linden: so if any avatar sees into the sim, it's non-idle
* [15:19] Stickman Ingmann: So it does a forced sleep for 100ms? So if something is eating more than 22ms while idling, the region will lag slower than 8fps?
* [15:19] Will Webb: no slowmotion views from the sim boundary then :-)
* [15:19] Simon Linden: Physical things will slow down, and time dialtion will be high ... just like a slow region
* [15:19] Homeless: If the avatar has his back to the sim, will it remain idle?
* [15:20] Simon Linden: It's more like a loop lasting 100ms: sleep a few ms, check for network activity, repeat
* [15:20] Stickman Ingmann: As someone pointed out, keyframe animation will slow down, as it's based on frames not time.
* [15:20] Will Webb: good q? if the 22ms is exceeded, does the excess pass into the 100ms?
* [15:20] TheBlack Box: yeah .... i need pysical stuff .. and pathfinding ... at max performance ...
* [15:20] Stickman Ingmann: The trains will not run on time!
* [15:20] Sigma Avro: Is that to spare energy ?
* [15:20] Stickman Ingmann: Unless you specifically code for it.
* [15:20] Maestro Linden: Only if you drop the network connection to the sim, homeless. Usually that doesn't depend on your camera angle, though.
* [15:20] Simon Linden: if that network activity is a "get out of idling" event, (incoming http, for example) it will break out at that point
* [15:20] NeoBokrug Elytis: What are the odds that an estate owner could have a region console command to opt out of this? Lets say science business wants to emulate some physical things full time?
* [15:20] Sigma Avro: so SL will have a green label now ?
* [15:20] Sigma Avro: lol
* [15:20] Kallista Destiny: Oh NOES, where is Mousillini when you need the trains to run on time?
* [15:21] Latif Khalifa: it's more to let other sims on the same physical box that have actual people on it run faster methinks
* [15:21] Sigma Avro: I agree with NeoBokrug
* [15:21] Maestro Linden: yeah, if you have a clock with hands that move with keyframed motion, it might run behind when idle :P
* [15:21] Simon Linden: This is less about saving energy than trying to free the CPU from doing un-needed work and having it available for other regions or back-end processes on the same server
* [15:22] Stickman Ingmann: Speaking of other sims running faster. Can the simulator for one region eat up other CPUs that are idling? Is the simulator code multithreaded? I don't know enough to say.
* [15:22] Simon Linden: The time in keyframed motion is stretched by lag ... it's not real-time
* [15:22] Sigma Avro: OK. It is good anyway, but option asked by NeoBokrug seems fair enougfh to me
* [15:22] Will Webb: basically, 1s becomes about 5s when idling
* [15:22] Will Webb: or like a .2 dilation lag
* [15:22] Latif Khalifa: Simon, there was some talk last year about making "region conductor" smarter to help on the same issue by for instance never putting two really busy regions on the same server. Was that worked on?
* [15:23] Simon Linden: The sim has some treading, and should get more in the future as we go after lag-causing problems
* [15:23] Simon Linden: threading too
* [15:23] Sigma Avro: That lloks to me As for sim resource sharing, is that perfomed by grop of 8 sims ?
* [15:23] NeoBokrug Elytis: So will you consider making it an region consol option?
* [15:23] Will Webb: are a lot of lsl time based issues affected? say the llsettimerevent in a script, will it run realtime or is it affected too?
* [15:23] Simon Linden: There are also other non-simulator processes running on the server that communicate with the back-end. Code that launches regions, talks to databases, handles capabilities, etc
* [15:23] Simon Linden: Those will benefit
* [15:24] Coyot Linden: Latif: Not AFAIK
* [15:24] Rex Cronon: if sombody were to own sim running on same server, they could put 7 on idle to make sure that one runs without lag:)
* [15:24] Rex Cronon: own 8 sims*
* [15:24] Simon Linden: timers are a weird mix of real and SL time
* [15:24] Stickman Ingmann: A lot of the forum thread talks about region scaling. Buying a specific region size, specific prims, like RAM and CPU power are scaled and sold. Is this a potential long term goal of LL for SL, or is this update not aimed at things down the road in that direction?
* [15:24] Coyot Linden: (and I'm the last person to have touched the conductor...)
* [15:25] Latif Khalifa: coyot, ok thanks
* [15:25] Sigma Avro: so, region conductor is used or not ?
* [15:25] Simon Linden: It's not really closely related to that, Stickman.
* [15:25] Latif Khalifa: it's used but it doesn't account for how busy a region is before it puts it on a server.
* [15:26] Coyot Linden: exactly Latif
* [15:26] Will Webb: so are time functions like a timer event affected or will they recognize the idling and still trigger realtime?
* [15:27] Stickman Ingmann: Simon, I recommend upgraded the region idle FAQ to include people's overt concern about breedables. Keep the panic down.
* [15:27] Sigma Avro: Well, it would be nice that the timer in iddle is predictible, since there will be llGetEnv(), it could work around scripts broken by idling
* [15:27] Will Webb: srry, missed it realier
* [15:27] Coyot Linden: This is kind of hard because usually by the time the conductor sees a region should be put on a host, the region is down and wants to come up. If it is down, it is hard to see how busy it is...
* [15:28] Latif Khalifa: coyot, i understand, it would have to save some sort of historical data to be able to tell "this sim is usually very busy"
* [15:28] Simon Linden: I'm not sure what you're suggesting I say, Stickman.
* [15:28] Coyot Linden: yeah, I agree with the approach
* [15:28] Stickman Ingmann: Need to keep stats about the servers. How busy they are on average, and what times of the day, so you can use that when making the choices. Big project to get all that set up right.
* [15:28] Coyot Linden: but Some Work Is Required(tm)
* [15:28] Jonathan Yap: Could you fetch the total traffic counts?
* [15:28] Will Webb: ah yes, breedables and other AI that might expect realtime running
* [15:29] Stickman Ingmann: Simon: People are going, "OMG MY BREEDABLES YOU HORRIBLE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO KILL MY PETS!" Just say that their breedables won't be affected. You could ping the makers, or peek in the scripts, and double check they don't have timers that dip below the threshold.
* [15:29] Latif Khalifa: i know. i was just asking since there was some mention last year that that might be an avenue to explore for improved sim performance, not placing two or more really busy sims on the same host.
* [15:29] Will Webb: well, the issue is as usual that no matter what you do, 95% of affected users wont figure out this is coming until it's live
* [15:29] NeoBokrug Elytis: I hate to ask a third time, but at $295 a month for a region -- Will you consider an option to disable Region idling in the Region Console or estate menu? I'm not saying Region Idling is a bad idea, or that this is something I need. But if there's a cool project like simulated evolution through physical movements of a scripted thing, this sounds like it'll cripple it.
* [15:29] Coyot Linden: If I were to go by anything, it would be FPS, Jonathan. Either the region is busy or not as perceived by the Avatars in it
* [15:29] Oskar Linden: we have stickman
* [15:29] Oskar Linden: no breedables issues so far
* [15:30] Simon Linden: Stickman - I can't promise that. If people have poorly scripted breedables, they will be affected.
* [15:30] Stickman Ingmann: It's a FAQ. But not on the FAQ.
* [15:30] Stickman Ingmann: So include that.
* [15:30] Stickman Ingmann: "Well written breedables won't be affected, please contact the creator for more specific information.:"
* [15:30] Latif Khalifa: +1 Stickman
* [15:30] Motor Loon: "breedable issues"
* [15:30] Motor Loon: lol
* [15:30] Will Webb: interesting to see how this would affect object intersim communication between a sim that's idling and one that has an avatar in it
* [15:30] Sigma Avro: I am afraid that some workaronds will require mch sim resources
* [15:31] Sigma Avro: as usual: countermeasures,
* [15:31] TheBlack Box: possible issue for breedables (and similar): will idle affect pathfinding ? i guess so ...
* [15:31] Will Webb: sigma, i brought the countermeasures issue up too
* [15:31] Simon Linden: For example, iF someone programs a breedable to eat every 162000 frames (1 hour at 45 fps) then they would eat much less on a idling region
* [15:31] Will Webb: there will be ppl making external calls for no other reason than to unidle
* [15:31] Latif Khalifa: i don't see many use cases where you would need to do that Will
* [15:31] NeoBokrug Elytis: It's true.
* [15:31] Rex Cronon: will they die of hunger:)
* [15:31] Motor Loon: Before you start planning for ways to get around idle, perhaps you should test your products and see if it's really needed at all
* [15:31] Will Webb: that's no different than multiple email scripts or other bypass tricks
* [15:32] Simon Linden: If you have feature ideas around this, (or anything else) the best way to move it forward is filing a feature jira. We do look at them
* [15:32] Will Webb: motor: i dont think you should worry about the ppl who are attending here
* [15:32] Will Webb: contrary to popular belief huh ;-)
* [15:32] Stickman Ingmann: I see it as "first make it work, second deal with the cheaters." Less moving parts, less problems you'll have. You put in odd counter measures trying to detect when someone's abusing it, and you get false positives, it can confuse the bug reporting.
* [15:32] Latif Khalifa: Will, if your sim has no avatars, and is not talking to the outside with xmlrpc, http, and email, why would you want to artificially unidle the region
* [15:32] Sigma AvroSigma Avro remembers resizers
* [15:32] Motor Loon: ha!... I worry extra for people attending here °͜°
* [15:33] Will Webb whispers: maybe i'm having objects chat to each other over sim boundaries, or other tehniques centralized servers can use in SL
* [15:33] Rex Cronon: lots of people have pets...
* [15:33] Will Webb: also; how the * did i trigger a whisper there? :-)
* [15:33] Latif Khalifa: shift enter
* [15:33] Coyot Linden: Rex: mine is a peeve. ;)
* [15:33] Will Webb: ah :-)
* [15:34] Rex Cronon: may u have many more like it, coyot:)
* [15:34] Moundsa Mayo: Breedable Peeves!
* [15:34] Coyot Linden: heh
* [15:34] Coyot Linden: Oh god, Mayo
* [15:34] Jonathan Yap: lol
* [15:34] Coyot Linden: there's a business model!
* [15:34] Latif Khalifa: Simon, et. al. I think you struck the right balance with this implementation of region idling, kudos :)
* [15:34] Moundsa Mayo: (TM)
* [15:34] Stickman Ingmann: BRB, patent office.
* [15:34] Moundsa Mayo: I exposed it first, Stickman
* [15:34] Will Webb: :-p
* [15:34] Moundsa Mayo: In front of witnesses.
* [15:34] Stickman Ingmann: YOU CAN'T COPYRIGHT AN IDEA!
* [15:34] Will Webb: prior art :-)
* [15:34] TankMaster Finesmith: yes, madusa?
* [15:35] TheBlack Box: i personally think it is important to allow artificial un-idle .... SL is to some extend a simulation-environment ... and for running a simulation it may be really ugly to go into idle-mode
* [15:35] Motor LoonMotor Loon laughs his ass off...
* [15:35] Rex Cronon: u can patent it:)
* [15:35] Moundsa Mayo: No, mine was an 'expression'
* [15:35] Stickman Ingmann: Yes, well. I'm trying to use stereotypical excuses, so I'm mixing legal boundaries.
* [15:35] Sigma Avro: Again, I agree with TheBlack and Neo
* [15:35] NeoBokrug Elytis: Console option for region idle off?
* [15:36] Will Webb: some ppl will expect their experiments to be able to run while they're offline
* [15:36] Oskar Linden: TheBlackBox, if a sim simulates and no one is there to see it did it really simulate?
* [15:36] Stickman Ingmann: I agree. Being able to turn it off could be useful. But I think the ignorant may misuse the feature.
* [15:36] Jonathan Yap: LL can charge extra for that console option being off :p
* [15:36] Will Webb: especially regions that are not mainland
* [15:36] Latif Khalifa: schroedingers sim? :P
* [15:36] SonicAnd Miles: we cant be sure of the effects it will cause until we try it. I'll try it first then give my thoughts. :)
* [15:36] Coyot Linden: I like the way you think, Jon
* [15:36] Stickman Ingmann: There you go, Jonathan.
* [15:36] Motor Loon: You know if there is a console option to disallow idle, it'll be used in 99% of cases where idle would never have been a problem
* [15:36] TheBlack Box: bogus llhttprequest in a timer works for me ...
* [15:36] NeoBokrug Elytis: It's really irritating to ask four times and NOT get an answer. Acceptable answers are: "yes we will consider it", "no we will not consider it", or "we need to think about it"
* [15:36] Jonathan Yap: So if someone has a pet peeve they can pay for it accordingly
* [15:36] TheBlack Box: not sure that is a clean solution though :)
* [15:37] Sigma Avro: Will private sim fees decrease with the idling ?
* [15:37] Latif Khalifa: lol
* [15:37] Stickman Ingmann: Why would they, Smile?
* [15:37] Simon Linden: Neoborg - we need to think about it
* [15:37] NeoBokrug Elytis: Thank you.
* [15:37] Sigma Avro: Oh, yes, smile is me. Still not updated my nick name
* [15:38] Sigma Avro: Because Euro is low Stickman
* [15:38] Stickman Ingmann: The trade value of the Euro seems like it would be an issue separate to idling. :p
* [15:39] Jonathan Yap: Is there another subject?
* [15:39] Sigma Avro: idling is like a decerease of services Stickman
* [15:39] Motor Loon: whats in the tube for next RC roll?
* [15:39] Simon Linden: You can also think of it as a free increase in services - your busy region and the host it's on will run better
* [15:39] Stickman Ingmann: That seems to be a common thought. Plesae explain your reasoning, Smile, and we can debate it.
* [15:39] TheBlack Box: i have a subject: Server-side rendering :)
* [15:39] Simon Linden: Free of charge
* [15:39] TankMaster Finesmith: ideling is like reallocating resorces to where thy can be better utilized
* [15:39] Coyot Linden: I understand that in order to stabilize the economies of several countries, the EU is switching to the L$
* [15:40] Coyot Linden: ;)
* [15:40] Stickman Ingmann: Yes! What happened to serverside rendering!
* [15:40] Moundsa Mayo: ARBITRAGE TIME!!
* [15:40] Motor Loon: yeah... idle sounds more like an increase in service
* [15:40] Will Webb: i'm not sure if ppl will see it as "i'm paying for other ppl to have their sims run better when i'm not around"
* [15:40] TheBlack Box: nvidia released VGX :) now we can thnk about new cool server-side rendering trickery :)
* [15:40] TankMaster Finesmith: lol box, exacty
* [15:40] Sigma Avro: OK, thanks for diplomatic answer
* [15:40] Will Webb: but i'm playing devil's advocate there
* [15:41] Motor Loon: Nothin wrong with a little bit of communism
* [15:41] SonicAnd Miles: i like the idea of saving energy :p
* [15:41] Coyot Linden: Motor: really won't know what's "in the tube" until a meeting tomorrow morning
* [15:41] Jonathan Yap: I wonder if anyone would have noticed idling if it had not been announced
* [15:41] Rex Cronon: i think if u allow those that own multiple sims to put some on ideling in order for the others to run faster, quite a few might be interested in it:)
* [15:41] Maestro Linden: Yeah, that would've been interesting, Jonathan.
* [15:41] Will Webb: yes they wouldve
* [15:41] Oskar Linden: people would have noticed it
* [15:41] Will Webb: only, it would have been ascribed to other issues
* [15:41] Simon Linden: Our first bug report on idling came in before it was released, which was interesting
* [15:41] Motor Loon: yeah... but they'd be going... why is my region running so well?!
* [15:41] Will Webb: unnecessarily tying up other support angles
* [15:41] Latif Khalifa: TBB, the way I see server side rendering is this: it helps mostly put stuff on mobile devices that have no power to do rendering themselves. But then your evil telco gives you caps that will be spend on remote rendered SL in 3 hours use. So the most useful use case for it goes throught the window
* [15:41] Sigma Avro: Good joke Jonathan. But those claiming, may have noticed it
* [15:42] Stickman Ingmann: Never understimate the power of crowdsourcing when it comes to things to complain about.
* [15:42] Coyot Linden: hah, stickman!
* [15:42] Motor Loon: lol simon
* [15:42] Will Webb: server side rendering would be nice as opensource feature
* [15:42] Will Webb: something i can install on a server of mine here
* [15:42] Will Webb: and then run SL through that server on my tablet
* [15:43] Motor Loon: suppose you could program a bot for that will
* [15:43] Stickman Ingmann: Serverside rendering was in beta in the past. Adeon Writer has some videos of it on the youtubes. Does any Linden here know what happened to that?
* [15:43] Rex Cronon: u would have like a remote video stream into sl:0
* [15:43] Maestro Linden: or just run the viewer remotely and access it via VNC or similar
* [15:43] SonicAnd Miles: idk if this was answered yet i have been back and forth but will my bot make my sim never idle?
* [15:43] TheBlack Box: server-side rendering (as in streaming the SL-viewer instead of local app) is just the most obvious use for virtualized GPUs
* [15:43] Oskar Linden: yes sonic
* [15:43] Will Webb: true, but there are nice implications
* [15:43] Sigma Avro: Mainland will never iddle. This is onlmy for private sims
* [15:44] Motor Loon: yes sonic... a bot would prevent idle
* [15:44] SonicAnd Miles: apparently im one of the few interested in this but my sim wont idle then.... :(
* [15:44] Stickman Ingmann: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6e5V4k-2lVM
* [15:44] Ov Dos Hat New!: Second Life, Rendered on the Cloud and Streamed to a Web Browser
* [15:44] Will Webb: yes, do avatars that have identified themselves as bots also unidle a sim or not?
* [15:44] Stickman Ingmann: Bots unidle sims now, yes.
* [15:44] Oskar Linden: pretty sure they do will
* [15:44] Motor Loon: why shouldnt mainland idle? lot of empty sims there with nobody around for kilometers
* [15:44] Stickman Ingmann: Maybe not later, but now yes.
* [15:44] Will Webb: cloud rendering can hit datacaps fast, that's why i prefer a home network solution
* [15:45] Stickman Ingmann: Sorry, I missed that. Was it said that mainland wouldn't idle?
* [15:45] Simon Linden: Stickman - Linden decided not to go forward with it for now
* [15:45] Simon Linden: There's no reason mainland can't idle
* [15:45] Latif Khalifa: it's too expensive for both LL and end users with caps
* [15:45] Simon Linden: It works just the same as every other place
* [15:45] Stickman Ingmann: Thanks, Simon. Must have misinterpreted someone else's comment.
* [15:45] Sigma Avro: with child agents, I do not see how
* [15:46] Latif Khalifa: it would require 9 regions to have no avis
* [15:46] Jonathan Yap: will there be any region crossing issues for objects entering an idling region?
* [15:46] Will Webb: if an av isnt looking at or in viewrange of a sim, it's not a child agent, iirc
* [15:46] Moundsa Mayo: I might have missed it - what is the projected latency of spinning up from idle? Like, a fast region crossing on a motorcycle - zip 'round a corner, new (idle) region suddenly in view ...
* [15:46] Motor Loon: that would depend on the avi's drawingdistance I think Latif
* [15:46] TheBlack Box: i bet using virtualized GPUs could help even regular SL sims to get some stuff done better ...
* [15:46] Will Webb: but yeah, chances of mainland sims going idle are not as great as for islands
* [15:46] Maestro Linden: it's pretty much instant, Moundsa
* [15:47] Moundsa Mayo: Cool
* [15:47] Stickman Ingmann: Would physics calculations benefit from GPU crunching?
* [15:47] Simon Linden: I haven't heard of any, Jonathan
* [15:47] Will Webb: since the sim should "spin up" once your av sees it, by the time of the regioncross it should be running normally
* [15:47] TheBlack Box: i bet stickman !
* [15:47] Will Webb: not that the region cross will go off without a hitch ;-)
* [15:47] Jonathan Yap: Will, I was asking about objects, say, a train or a bullet
* [15:48] Stickman Ingmann: A region should spin up in under 122ms. Maybe in under 100ms. And that's just based on existing knowledge. It could be written to spin up faster.
* [15:48] Will Webb: ah, yes, automated items doing simcrossings from an unidle to an idle sim and vice versa
* [15:48] Simon Linden: It can break out of the idle phase faster, Stickman
* [15:48] Draconis Neurocam: its always interesting when i fly into a sim before the terrain loads, and i have to fly back out
* [15:48] Stickman Ingmann: Fast enough for me.
* [15:48] Will Webb: i can see unlinked trains hitting each other
* [15:49] Will Webb: if they're not keeping distance in some way
* [15:49] Motor Loon: thats called "bad coding" will °͜°
* [15:49] Stickman Ingmann: Will, wouldn't be anything more special than exiting a lagged region.
* [15:49] Will Webb: yes, but ppl managing their sims have ways to keep them unlagged
* [15:49] SonicAnd Miles: if nobody is there then nobody knows the trains hit eachother i would think....
* [15:49] Hitomi Tiponi: fortuntely not being applied to mainland so SLRR should be ok
* [15:50] Will Webb: not to keep them unidling, unless we go back to forced bypasses
* [15:50] Coyot Linden: cya, folks, I gotta get ready for my next meeting...
* [15:50] Jonathan Yap: Thanks Coyot
* [15:50] Rex Cronon: tc coyot
* [15:50] Coyot Linden: yw
* [15:51] Hitomi Tiponi: bye Coyot
* [15:51] Sigma Avro: sy
* [15:51] Will Webb: bad coding we tend to see a lot around here, panicky responses too; both will be fun to watch when this gets implemented :-)
* [15:51] Will Webb: bye coyot
* [15:51] Motor Loon: indeed
* [15:51] Stickman Ingmann: Will, frame time fluctuates for the craziest reasons, and can be off by just a little. Lots of region crossings in completely unlagged regions in an unlinked train will eventually build up errors. You'll need to already have written to compensate for lag anyway.
* [15:51] Oskar Linden: i have a 4pm meeting too I might need to head out a few minutes early for
* [15:51] Moundsa Mayo: Thanks for your time and hard work, Coyot!
* [15:51] Stickman Ingmann: Closing Jira: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/WEB-3967
* [15:51] Flame of Jira: [#WEB-3967] The sky is falling https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/WEB-3967
* [15:51] Sigma Avro: by Oskar
* [15:51] Rex Cronon: tc oskar
* [15:52] Will Webb: i agree, the biggest problem to this (apart from panicky ppl forcing unidles) will be the one we didnt even see coming ;)
* [15:52] Hitomi Tiponi: bye
* [15:52] Stickman Ingmann: Thanks for answering all my questions!
* [15:52] TheBlack Box: alright ... cu all at pathfinding office hour then :)
* [15:52] Rex Cronon: lets see how it works in practice
* [15:52] TankMaster Finesmith: is there still the other UG then?
* [15:52] Will Webb: when's pathfinding hour?
* [15:52] Moundsa Mayo: Oskar, thanks for your time and hard work!
* [15:52] TheBlack Box: in 10 minutes
* [15:52] Jonathan Yap: Is Pathtest1 running?
* [15:52] Will Webb: and is that beta or agni?
* [15:52] Will Webb: ok, when and where :-)
* [15:52] Rex Cronon: on this grid
* [15:52] TankMaster Finesmith: at 4, will, assuming falcon isnt also in the meeting
* [15:52] Jonathan Yap: Will, we just have to move to Pathtest 1 here
* [15:52] TheBlack Box: here ... in the sim PathTest1 i think
* [15:52] Will Webb: kk
* [15:53] Motor Loon: hm... my windows 7 has started to claim "There was a problem sending the command to the program" when I try to open url's from within the viewer... anyone has an idea on how I fix that?
* [15:53] Oskar Linden: thanks for coming everyone!
* [15:53] Theresa Tennyson: Maestro - SVC-7902?
* [15:53] Flame of Jira: [#SVC-7902] Problem of not being able to rez on my land continues https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7902
* [15:53] Rex Cronon: hmm. switch to linux?
* [15:53] Latif Khalifa: Motor, install SL viewer again.
* [15:53] TheBlack Box: secondlife://Aditi/secondlife/PathTest1/107/85/23
* [15:53] Rex Cronon: :)
* [15:53] TheBlack Box: cu
* [15:53] Stickman Ingmann: I'm out, later everyone!
* [15:53] Latif Khalifa: the one that registered URI ahndler got uninstalled
* [15:53] Motor Loon: yeah that might work... but was hoping I didnt have to do that °͜°
* [15:53] Jonathan Yap: Latif, could it be a comm issue with the plugin?
* [15:53] Rex Cronon: tc all those leaving
* [15:53] Moundsa Mayo: Maestro, Simon, too, thanks for your time and hard work!
* [15:54] Will Webb: web-3967 is hilarious :-)
* [15:54] Flame of Jira: [#WEB-3967] The sky is falling https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/WEB-3967
* [15:54] Maestro Linden: Yep, Kelly has a fix for SVC-7902 theresa
* [15:54] Flame of Jira: [#SVC-7902] Problem of not being able to rez on my land continues https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7902
* [15:54] TankMaster Finesmith: good seeing ou here, simon ㋡
* [15:54] Simon Linden: I have a meeting too - thanks everyone for coming and the feedback. If you find idling bugs, please report them in jira
* [15:54] Maestro Linden: we're not quite sure when it's going out yet, though
* [15:54] Rex Cronon: tc simon
* [15:54] Theresa Tennyson: Okay, thanks!
* [15:54] Maestro Linden: Falcon said the pathfinding OH is happening at the usual place
* [15:54] Sigma Avro: panic everybody has meeting
* [15:54] Will Webb: thx guys; seeya all next time
* [15:54] Sigma Avro: haha
* [15:54] Simon Linden: I'm going to the meeting to discuss how to get that fix out earlier :)
* [15:54] SonicAnd Miles: lol
* [15:54] Maestro Linden: I gotta run, myself
* [15:54] Sigma Avro: Well, bye bye
* [15:54] SonicAnd Miles: c-ya guys
* [15:54] TankMaster Finesmith: awesome, thx maestro
* [15:54] Maestro Linden: thanks for coming everybody!
* [15:54] Rex Cronon: tc maestro
* [15:54] Oskar Linden: have a good one
* [15:55] Oskar Linden: let us know in the forums if you find issues on blue steel with region idline
* [15:55] Rex Cronon: everybody has meetings? werid
* [15:55] Oskar Linden: idling
* [15:55] Moundsa Mayo: I THOUGHT your frame rate went down, Oskar!
* [15:56] Moundsa Mayo: Later, gang!