Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2012.04.03

Simulator_User_Group
Prev 2012.03.30	Next 2012.04.06
== List of Speakers ==
Ashiri Sands 	Chieron Tenk 	Draconis Neurocam 	
Fadeout Razorfen 	Falcon Linden 	Fancy Detector 	
Flip Idlemind 	Ima Mechanique 	Imaze Rhiano 	
Keepers Karu 	Kitto Flora 	Liisa Runo 	
MartinRJ Fayray 	Nalates Urriah 	Pogojump 	Qie Niangao
Rex Cronon 	Sahkolihaa Contepomi	Simon Linden 	
Sovereign Engineer	Squirrel Wood 	Tankmaster Finesmith	
Vincent Nacon 	 	 	
== Transcript ==
[12:02] Simon Linden: There was a rollout this morning, with details at http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2012-04-02/td-p/1466803
[12:03] Simon Linden: The code that went to the main grid basically had internal bug fixes, mostly around networking code
[12:03] Vincent Nacon: "Modified existing throttles and caps on network traffic" ??
[12:03] Simon Linden: Tomorrow there will be some new code on the RC branches as well
[12:04] Kitto Flora: Any upcoming fix for the physical Memory problem?
[12:04] Simon Linden: Right, there were some limits tweaked on various types of messages to keep things from falling apart
[12:04] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Memory problem?
[12:04] Vincent Nacon: hang on, he's on the news
[12:05] Simon Linden: I'm not aware of one, Kitto. I'd have to look at the bug report, but I think that looked like a flood of too many collision pairs
[12:05] Kitto Flora: OK
[12:05] Simon Linden: The new code will have a fix for SCR-6
[12:05] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SCR-6
[#SCR-6] llGetSubString can produce results that crash Mono scripts
[12:06] Vincent Nacon: assumed Kelly's fix?
[12:06] Simon Linden: Also SVC-7716
[12:06] Vincent Nacon: can't see...
[12:07] Vincent Nacon: "Permission Violation"
[12:07] Simon Linden: hmm, that may have been moved to a security one
[12:07] Vincent Nacon: yup
[12:07] Vincent Nacon: but which was it?
[12:07] Simon Linden: plus 16-18 other internal bug fixes
[12:07] Simon Linden: It was related to the message throttles
[12:08] Vincent Nacon: yeah about that.. what was done?
[12:08] Simon Linden: One item going in is blocking object selection by banned AVs
[12:08] Simon Linden: So if someone is banned on your parcel, they can't stand on an adjacent one and select stuff
[12:08] Nalates Urriah: ice
[12:08] Nalates Urriah: nice
[12:09] Ima Mechanique: even if they own it?
[12:09] Vincent Nacon: what about .... yeah
[12:09] Vincent Nacon: what she said
[12:09] Rex Cronon: how can their selection matter to u?
[12:09] Simon Linden: I'm pretty sure they can select it if they own it
[12:09] Vincent Nacon: ok
[12:09] Ima Mechanique: *cough* he
[12:09] Vincent Nacon: he she, whatever, she got bosom!
[12:10] Vincent Nacon: next news?
[12:10] Rex Cronon: how does somebody that u banned, selecting your objects, affect u?
[12:10] Simon Linden: The region crossing code will be on RC as well, and while nothing is nailed down, might get promoted next week
[12:10] Simon Linden: Selecting can stop objects from moving
[12:11] Liisa Runo: cant
[12:11] Flip Idlemind: The maint-server after this one has http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlGetAgentList
[12:11] Flip Idlemind: So let's all cross our fingers and hope that doesn't get delayed at all!
[12:11] Vincent Nacon: I'm sure it will
[12:11] Simon Linden: Right, that one is getting QA attention now, so I can't guess exactly when it will be out
[12:12] Vincent Nacon: sounds good enough to get going though
[12:12] Simon Linden: That's it for news, so the table's open
[12:12] Flip Idlemind: Simon speaking of making things stop moving by selecting them...
[12:12] Liisa Runo: lets talk about what objects selecting still can stop from moving
[12:13] Simon Linden: Falcon sent me an IM - he can't make it today, but asks that people gather questions for the beta user group Thursday or here for the Simulator group Friday
[12:13] Flip Idlemind: So you know why it is that, if you select something that's spinning as a result of llTargetOmega (a viewer-side effect) makes it stop spinning for everyone
[12:13] Vincent Nacon: aww
[12:13] Flip Idlemind: Do you*
[12:13] Rex Cronon: rigth liisa
[12:13] Liisa Runo: okie, thanks Flip
[12:14] Simon Linden: No Flip, but I'd guess the simulator is sending some message about it stopping to everyone. It probably doesn't need to do that, but the system isn't really designed to have an update that is only sent to one or a few people. Basically if an object changes, everyone that sees it gets the update
[12:15] Rex Cronon: maybe havok gets the stop rotation msg, and sends updates to all
[12:16] Ima Mechanique: no, TargetOmega is client side only
[12:16] Vincent Nacon: I haven't been able to understand why people can stop physical object by selecting it if they're not the owner....
[12:16] Ima Mechanique: unless it's physical I think
[12:16] Simon Linden: It's not in Havok, since it's a viewer effect, but I'd _guess_ the selection turns it off. That means the object has changed, so everyone gets the update, then when it starts again, everyone gets another update
[12:16] Qie Niangao: so... does STATUS_BLOCK_GRAB actually prevent stopping physical motion? (Maybe it depends on whether the grabbing agent has ability to edit the object?)
[12:16] Liisa Runo: people cant stop nonowned phys objects anymore
[12:17] Flip Idlemind: I have a theory, and if I had more patience I'd dig around in the viewer code to confirm. I think the only such update message the viewer should get about a spinning object is just that it's selected. So the viewer makes everything stop spinning if it's selected by anyone, instead of only stopping things they've selected
[12:17] Rex Cronon: for griefing, megaprims were dropped on people. if u could select it would stop moving
[12:17] Flip Idlemind: (Hopefully that all made sense)
[12:17] Kitto Flora: Anyone could stop and hold physical objects becuase its useful for dealing with physical griefer objects.
[12:17] Vincent Nacon: I meant when first intro in SL
[12:17] Simon Linden: ok -- well, that selection change will make it so someone that's banned can't reach in and select editable objects on the parcel
[12:18] Vincent Nacon: I know greiffers are bad enough but I can't really care about stopping their physical objects.
[12:19] Simon Linden: Also there's an upcoming change where you won't be able to un-link an object if the result would drop prims onto a parcel where they aren't allowed
[12:19] Vincent Nacon: select and return is pretty much all you need, hardly need to have ability to stop and hold it in place
[12:19] Rex Cronon: if those thing cause a lag festival u would start carring very fast:)
[12:19] Vincent Nacon: no I won't
[12:19] Vincent Nacon: I deal with racing track
[12:19] Flip Idlemind: Ahhh the lag festival...good times
[12:19] Rex Cronon: u like lag?
[12:19] Liisa Runo: Simon, before change that, make sure we have alternatives, or you will break all the fun stuff
[12:20] Qie Niangao: I've used that before, too... but it really shouldn't be possible to do it.
[12:20] Simon Linden: Alternative ways to put objects onto parcels where you're not supposed to be able to do so?
[12:20] Vincent Nacon: thanks to Havok 4... trying to lag a sim with physic isn't an issue with grieffers, mostly with scripts
[12:20] Flip Idlemind: I'm sure someone will find those
[12:20] Liisa Runo: yes
[12:21] Ima Mechanique: yes please, more grieifing friendly functions ;-)
[12:21] Simon Linden takes notes
[12:21] Imaze Rhiano: llLagSim function?
[12:21] Vincent Nacon: oy
[12:21] Kitto Flora: Vincent - actually - it is - theres a new memory exploit...
[12:21] Vincent Nacon: other than that of course
[12:21] Simon Linden: It's still pretty easy to cause a lag event with physics, but much, much harder to really crash a sim
[12:22] Vincent Nacon: right Simon
[12:22] Vincent Nacon: so that's why I don't really care much about that
[12:22] Liisa Runo: so many things can be used for griefing... if we dont want the objects to be actually in the parcel, can we then get special altitude for objects to travel freely like they have been able to do since day 1
[12:22] Ima Mechanique: Simon, tell that to Nyx, someone crashed the sim at his meeting yesterday
[12:22] Imaze Rhiano: kast nught grifer crashed Nyx's 0h
[12:22] Imaze Rhiano: last night...
[12:22] Simon Linden: oh, I know plenty of ways to crash the sim, Ima :)
[12:23] Rex Cronon: write a blog about it. u will become quite famous simon;)
[12:23] Vincent Nacon: but to be honest... I'd like a LSL function to return objects (under same estate ownership)
[12:23] Ima Mechanique: hehe, I'm sure you do
[12:23] Vincent Nacon: much faster than trying to catch them by selecting their stuff
[12:24] Liisa Runo: SCR-19 Vincent
[12:24] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SCR-19
[#SCR-19] Script function to return objects
[12:24] Draconis Neurocam: or even an lsl function to set the return timer would be nice
[12:24] Rex Cronon: that won't help much in a public sanbox. will it vincent?
[12:24] Simon Linden: I know that LSL has been discussed before ... is there a jira with a good descrption... right, that one
[12:24] Vincent Nacon: yup... that
[12:24] Keepers Karu: I'd like something that would actually let me see a list of everything on my parcel, because I've accidently lost items--sent them flying--when building.
[12:24] Ashiri Sands: Will help with community group sandboxes
[12:25] Vincent Nacon: and it would be easier to have a database of greifers on record between groups that share same world
[12:25] Ashiri Sands: not a good idea
[12:25] Vincent Nacon: to return and ban them faster
[12:25] Squirrel Wood: griefers? those lads have literally thousands of alts.
[12:25] Simon Linden: Kelly mentions that a version that uses the owner key makes sense .. .that's basically what can be done in the viewer
[12:25] Rex Cronon: isn't there a griefers db?
[12:25] Squirrel Wood: they change them like normal people change their underwear
[12:25] Ashiri Sands: and some vigilante groups... ugh!
[12:25] Simon Linden: We have a customer DB, Rex :P
[12:25] Flip Idlemind: "Database of griefers"? That can't possibly cause problems...
[12:25] Qie Niangao: lol
[12:26] Rex Cronon: maybe faster squirrel lod
[12:26] Rex Cronon: lol*
[12:26] Rex Cronon: the justice league or something:)
[12:26] Simon Linden: I'll mention that function to Kelly - he's been looking for some good basic LSL functions that would help
[12:26] Vincent Nacon: when someone decided to be a grieffer in a Track B sim... easier to have it banned across large racing world
[12:27] Ima Mechanique: if you're taking requests, I'd like HMAC
[12:27] Liisa Runo: im still not done talking about the age old possibility to move objects freely. Can we please get some way? It could be special thing to not get counted against parcel or stay for long er than parcels normal autoreturn time.
[12:27] Rex Cronon: there is a little problem with that return function. it shouldn't work on attachments, otherwise u can get everybody naked. by mistake of course:)
[12:28] Vincent Nacon: having stuff like that would be much better than "hoping" the person get banned by IP and doesn't know how to change IP...
[12:28] Ashiri Sands: For overflights, Liisa?
[12:28] Liisa Runo: yes
[12:28] Simon Linden: Liisa - can you explain the situation you're talkign about?
[12:28] Flip Idlemind: Objects moving freely and not counting against parcels? That can't possibly cause problems...
[12:28] Liisa Runo: situation, i want to send my toy from here to DaBoom,
[12:29] Vincent Nacon: Liisa I think that might change a lot of things about Parcel
[12:29] Tankmaster Finesmith: ll alows exporting prims from SL only ig you are the creator of all the parts
[12:29] Liisa Runo: removing the link trick to do it, will change lots of things too
[12:29] Vincent Nacon: yeah I don't think SL is ready for that kind of change yet
[12:29] Vincent Nacon: it's an idea though
[12:30] Simon Linden: You can get the over-flight if there's an AV involved, but I'm not sure how it would be possible without really messing up the parcel accounting, or allowing things to build up and bog down a region
[12:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[12:31] Rex Cronon: and object just needs safe passage
[12:31] Simon Linden: Even if they're up high, objects would be taking up script time and physics resources
[12:31] Vincent Nacon: maybe in Third Life
[12:31] Ashiri Sands: An av with attachments can overfly but not an av in a vehicle?
[12:31] Qie Niangao: well... those up-high objects would take up *less* resources than a bot on a box.
[12:31] Simon Linden: This sounds like something that would be fine if everything played nicely, but opens up a bunch of problems that would be difficult to limit
[12:32] Liisa Runo: sigh, what about llTeleportObject then....
[12:32] Vincent Nacon: yeah, not ready for it yet
[12:32] Rex Cronon: tpobj? that sounds nice:)
[12:32] Vincent Nacon: might hurt LL's source of income
[12:32] Vincent Nacon: and no
[12:33] Vincent Nacon: you can't teleport object without changing the key
[12:33] Ashiri Sands: tpobject could be a griefer's dream
[12:33] Liisa Runo: even llSetcolor is used for griefing...
[12:33] Ima Mechanique: not if it observed parcel perms
[12:33] Rex Cronon: if the owner of parcel can specify if the allow obj to tp in...
[12:34] Rex Cronon: if they allow*
[12:34] Qie Niangao: wonder what the relevant destination perm would be... build, or object-entry
[12:34] Ima Mechanique: already a permission for that, parcel entry
[12:34] Imaze Rhiano: this is very griefer oriented discussion
[12:34] Liisa Runo: yes
[12:34] Simon Linden: Yeah, llTeleportObject would be interesting. I'd love to see some of the creative ways that could be abused
[12:34] Ashiri Sands: it has been
[12:34] Ima Mechanique: lol
[12:34] Vincent Nacon: but how are you gonna deal with the UUID for that object?
[12:34] Rex Cronon: i am sorry, but tpobj can have other uses besides griefing
[12:35] Simon Linden: It's frustrating now much time and effort goes into blocking griefing ... it would be much better spent on performance, bugs and features
[12:35] Ashiri Sands: most of LSL is dual-purpose =^_~=
[12:35] Flip Idlemind: Off the top of my head...sculpt crasher + list of all regions = creative abuse
[12:35] Vincent Nacon: aye
[12:35] Rex Cronon: flip that can be done right now with a bot
[12:35] Liisa Runo: the ability to ignore no-entry been here for ages, and we can also rez to 16kilometers from the rezzer, SL is ready for better ways. Limiting the old ways will just make SL less fun
[12:36] Kitto Flora: One should block the griefers, not the griefer's efforts :)
[12:36] Simon Linden: I wish that was easy, Kitto
[12:36] Rex Cronon: u can rez 16km away?
[12:36] Liisa Runo: yes
[12:36] Vincent Nacon: we need Grieffer database!
[12:36] Vincent Nacon: >:O
[12:36] Ashiri Sands: I've seen a griefer DB... it's a joke
[12:37] Vincent Nacon: I still remember how silly when people tried to be a SL police
[12:37] Tankmaster Finesmith: aka redzone :P
[12:37] Ima Mechanique: griefer Db would be against ToS ;-) Identifying private info and linking with avatar info ;-)
[12:37] Tankmaster Finesmith: ^
[12:37] Simon Linden: There you go
[12:37] Kitto Flora was successfully blocking griefers 20 years ago
[12:37] Vincent Nacon: oh I know but if I can remember you... why not?
[12:37] Rex Cronon: if u make it outside sl, than ll can't do anything about it
[12:38] Qie Niangao: uh
[12:38] Vincent Nacon: unlike Redzone, that went around to get your info
[12:38] Qie Niangao: they can't get rid of the DB, but they can get rid of you.
[12:38] Vincent Nacon: I also remember the rating in profile used to be part of way ID type of people they are
[12:38] Rex Cronon: not that simple
[12:38] Vincent Nacon: well... sort of
[12:39] Qie Niangao: well, it helps if you're also violating your parole. :p
[12:39] Ima Mechanique: lol
[12:39] Vincent Nacon: so yeah... I can create a database... but I'd need LSL function to return objects
[12:40] Keepers Karu: Excuse me? I was wondering if it would be possible to implement, in LSL, the ability to detect more key and mouse presses. For example, a sword script that operates on the right mouse button pressed, rather than the left one?
[12:40] Vincent Nacon: yeah that has been asked before
[12:40] Vincent Nacon: even I ask for analog inputs
[12:40] Flip Idlemind: I can do that but I had to haxxor my viewer for it
[12:40] MartinRJ Fayray: hehe
[12:40] Flip Idlemind: Alt-fire would be nice for SL guns
[12:41] Keepers Karu: Since I don't like using first person mouse look, I use third person (termed mouse steering, for some reason, on SL). But it's hard to use that in sword fighting, when you need it to activate the sword.
[12:41] Simon Linden: I'm new to that discussion, but how would it differentiate between a right-click event for LSL and trying to edit the object?
[12:41] Liisa Runo: ... ok, if we cant get new way to replace the old trick, can we then create one new "banline and no-entry" continent and force boring ppl to move there, like zindra.
[12:41] Vincent Nacon: yeah... no idea
[12:41] Vincent Nacon: permission I guess
[12:41] Keepers Karu: How do you mean?
[12:42] Ashiri Sands: lol Liisa
[12:42] Simon Linden: Well, now if you right-click on something, you're selecting it for some operation in the menu that pops up.
[12:42] Keepers Karu: Oh, you mean, because right click is reserved for being able to bring down the drop down menu?
[12:42] Chieron Tenk: not in mouselook, tho
[12:42] Flip Idlemind: If llTakeControls were called 0 as the pass-on parameter
[12:42] Draconis Neurocam: what would probably be the best of both worlds would be that someone would modify the 3dconnexion flycam software to work with gestures
[12:42] Flip Idlemind: That would stop you from editing things right?
[12:42] Simon Linden: If we were passing that event to LSL instead, the menu wouldn't pop up ... but then how would you edit the object?
[12:42] Keepers Karu: Perhaps that can be changed in the scripting, too?
[12:42] Vincent Nacon: muhaha! no Drac
[12:42] Flip Idlemind: But yeah I was thinking it would need to be in mouselook
[12:43] Vincent Nacon: yeah you have a point there
[12:44] Simon Linden: I do like the 3dconnnexion units, those are great :)
[12:44] Ima Mechanique: Additional keys would be nice. control, alt shift for example
[12:44] Keepers Karu: Well, that's the thing: I don't like the first person viewpoint. I try to stay in third person.
[12:44] Pogojump: npv
[12:44] Vincent Nacon: TPV would be a problem for that control
[12:44] Pogojump: hmm :I
[12:45] Vincent Nacon: (Third person view)
[12:45] Keepers Karu: Hm, I guess this was a harder topic to bring up, than I thought. I think we'd need the ability to change key and mouse bindings, for something like that to work. But couldn't there be a way to do that through scripting?
[12:45] Keepers Karu: Like, "Okay, I see the conflict, here, so change things around, so there isn't one?"
[12:46] Vincent Nacon: maybe with permission control
[12:46] Vincent Nacon: the release button
[12:46] Simon Linden: Most of the bindings are viewer side, so I'm not sure you'd want a script involved at that level. Now it would be really nice if there was a script engine inside the viewer, but that's a huge change
[12:46] Vincent Nacon: like the "stand" button
[12:47] Ima Mechanique: better to allow the viewer to specify the keys that map to abstracted values, like JUMP, FIRE etc
[12:47] Simon Linden: Yeah, if things could be re-designed from scratch it wouldn't end up with the system we have today :P
[12:47] Kitto Flora: :)
[12:47] Keepers Karu: lol
[12:48] Keepers Karu: Well, is there a possible workaround, with the system we currently have?
[12:48] Vincent Nacon: btw... what do people think about adding hidden string values to a prim? like description but hidden from edit view
[12:48] MartinRJ Fayray: I understand what Keeper wants, Minecraft isn't possible here, at the moment (without mouselook)
[12:48] MartinRJ Fayray: not without a haxxed viewer
[12:48] Pogojump: minecraft is bad
[12:49] Pogojump: end of story
[12:49] MartinRJ Fayray: (just as an example)
[12:49] Flip Idlemind: Modify your viewer to send chat when you right-click and have a script listen for it
[12:49] Rex Cronon: if is hidden how can u edit it
[12:49] Simon Linden: Vincent - so basically a text data storage attached to an object?
[12:49] Flip Idlemind: That's a workaround
[12:49] Vincent Nacon: yup
[12:49] Keepers Karu: Nor is something like Dungeons and Dragons Online.
[12:49] Vincent Nacon: to transfer or storage more data
[12:49] Draconis Neurocam: i think there might be room for the field where the key for the collision particles used to be
[12:49] Draconis Neurocam: unless that got removed from the attributes
[12:50] Imaze Rhiano: Maybe you should write for Humble - he seems to be so excited about games
[12:50] Simon Linden: I can definitely see where that would be useful
[12:50] Vincent Nacon: I was kinda annoyed to see most objects have description being used as data storage.
[12:50] Simon Linden: People are using the name or description now, but that's pretty hackyk
[12:50] Keepers Karu: If you can attract the hard-core gamer crowd, you can rake in the cash. Lord knows I've dropped a lot on DDO.
[12:50] Fancy Detector: Falcon Linden has arrived!
[12:50] Pogojump: FALCON PAUNCH
[12:50] Vincent Nacon: and how games could benefit from it when people can't cheat by looking at the description
[12:50] Simon Linden cues trumpets
[12:51] Simon Linden: Welcome, Falcon
[12:51] Keepers Karu: =D Is there a user group Mr. Humble participates in?
[12:51] Rex Cronon: log ago it was proposed to create an extra field to an object for data storage, or a llWriteNotecard function. nothing happened yet:(
[12:51] Ima Mechanique: some kind of persistent storage has been a dream for a loooong time ;-)
[12:51] Vincent Nacon: oh now he comes..... when we have 9 minutes left on the clock
[12:51] Falcon Linden: Boo
[12:51] Vincent Nacon: muhaha!
[12:51] Falcon Linden: :P
[12:51] Flip Idlemind: Description is good for tiny amounts of non-secret data storage
[12:51] Falcon Linden: I was callled?
[12:51] Vincent Nacon: yeah I got something about pathfinding
[12:52] Falcon Linden: oh yeah? do you know now? ;)
[12:52] Ima Mechanique: yopu were called, many things!!
[12:52] Falcon Linden: ima: usually am
[12:52] Liisa Runo: (and if hovertext is not used, can store a string there and have it invisible)
[12:52] Vincent Nacon: llGetClosestNavPoint() fails and tend to slow down sim time dill to a half
[12:52] Falcon Linden: hack hack hack
[12:52] Vincent Nacon: also... Need to shack evade & pursue calls to remember with integer return to cancel afterward.
[12:52] Falcon Linden: vincent: it will fail if there is no navmesh within 20m
[12:52] Pogojump: FALCON PAUNCH
[12:53] Vincent Nacon: it fails even if there is
[12:53] Falcon Linden: as for slowing things down, are you calling it frequently?
[12:53] Vincent Nacon: no, just once
[12:53] Falcon Linden: vincent: provide a repro on aditi and log a pathbug jira
[12:53] Vincent Nacon: I can't
[12:53] Keepers Karu: I was thinking of a workaround with gestures, but I'm not sure how well that would work. Can a gesture be activated with a right mouse click?
[12:53] Falcon Linden: same for that. It is expensive, but not that expensive
[12:53] Vincent Nacon: I don't have the viewer to see the navmesh
[12:53] Falcon Linden: vincent: where are you getting it?
[12:53] Falcon Linden: download it :)
[12:53] Vincent Nacon: ....where?
[12:53] Falcon Linden: Second Life Alternate Viewers
[12:53] Qie Niangao: actually... now that we get larger http return values (well, soon)... maybe instead of persistent storage, we should be asking for http server space on LL's internal network.
[12:54] Falcon Linden: it has some bugs, especially that version, but it will display the mesh
[12:54] Nalates Urriah: I can't see the navmesh with the current project viewer...
[12:54] Vincent Nacon: augh.. didn't even think it would be there
[12:54] Vincent Nacon: silly wiki
[12:54] Falcon Linden: nalates: jira :)
[12:54] Nalates Urriah: I did... I'll find it
[12:54] Vincent Nacon: will try some repo if I can
[12:54] Falcon Linden: however, walkables/obstacles/etc are not showing properly in that version
[12:54] Falcon Linden: we'll update it to one that does as soon as possible
[12:54] Nalates Urriah: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/PATHBUG-63
[12:55] Falcon Linden: vincent: what did you mean about return values?
[12:55] Vincent Nacon: but about the evade and pursue, it would be nice if they're stackable goals
[12:55] Falcon Linden: nal: thanks, I'll look
[12:55] Falcon Linden: vincent: yes, feature request :)
[12:55] Falcon Linden: in general, a queue of behaviors would be cool
[12:55] Vincent Nacon: return value to cancel them just like listen call
[12:55] Falcon Linden: you could write that yourself
[12:55] Falcon Linden: but it wouldn't be nearly as seamless/fast
[12:55] Falcon Linden: give it a try, though
[12:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[12:55] Falcon Linden: question for all of you on the pathfinding beta
[12:55] Vincent Nacon: shoot
[12:56] Tankmaster Finesmith: draw
[12:56] Vincent Nacon: fire
[12:56] Draconis Neurocam: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Alternate_Viewers#Pathfinding
[12:56] Falcon Linden: has anyone marked up their region with walkables/obstacles yet? We need a nice, realistic region to test our navmesh/object displays
[12:56] Falcon Linden: a region with walkables, obstacles, material and exclusion volumes that is representative of SL builds
[12:56] Falcon Linden: (not just a few boxes of each type)
[12:56] Vincent Nacon: you mean something like this?
[12:57] Falcon Linden: a grey prim? no, not really ;)
[12:57] Falcon Linden: (oo, self-burn)
[12:57] Vincent Nacon: :P
[12:58] Sovereign Engineer: Falcon I've noticed issues with this..https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/PATHBUG-64
[12:58] Falcon Linden: that's a great start, yes. Even more content would be great, but that will be a big help. What's the slurl?
[12:58] Vincent Nacon: it's mostly made of Mesh
[12:58] Vincent Nacon: the slurl... well the sim owner complained about mesh being too heavy on prim count
[12:59] Vincent Nacon: so the SLurl is... it's in my pocket
[12:59] Fancy Detector: Falcon Linden has arrived!
[12:59] Vincent Nacon: oy
[12:59] Vincent Nacon: wb
[12:59] Rex Cronon: wb
[12:59] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Crashy crashy?
[12:59] Simon Linden: Yeah mesh (and prim) accounting is another can of worms
[12:59] Falcon Linden: thanks
[12:59] Falcon Linden: :P
[12:59] Ima Mechanique: lol Falcon looks weird ruthed
[12:59] Falcon Linden: last I saw as that that was made of mesh
[12:59] Vincent Nacon: [12:58] Vincent Nacon: it's mostly made of Mesh
[12:58] Vincent Nacon: the slurl... well the sim owner complained about mesh being too heavy on prim count
[12:59] Vincent Nacon: so the SLurl is... it's in my pocket
[13:00] Falcon Linden: vincent: I'll make you a deal. You rez that and build it out a bit more in the next couple days and as soon as I can, I'll review it and see if I can give advice on cutting prim count
[13:00] Sovereign Engineer: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/PATHBUG-64
[13:00] Falcon Linden: of course, my advice is really limited to physics, but...
[13:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[13:00] Sovereign Engineer: Falcon I've noticed issues like that.
[13:01] Falcon Linden: I'll hang around for 5 more minutes
[13:01] Falcon Linden: Andrew and Simon, you guys can take off if you need to
[13:01] Vincent Nacon: yeah I don't think you could squeeze anymore out of it
[13:01] Falcon Linden: looking at the two bugs
[13:01] Ima Mechanique: andrew's way ahead of you
[13:01] Vincent Nacon: it's around 1,600 prims
[13:01] Falcon Linden: vincent: fair enough. I'd still like to see it
[13:01] Vincent Nacon: yeah
[13:01] Falcon Linden: do you need a place to rez it?
[13:01] Sovereign Engineer: A character pursueing an avatar will go to the spot where the avatar last was then stops for a tiny bit then finds where the avatar moves then goes there next
[13:01] Vincent Nacon: yup, it need to be a full sim size
[13:02] Falcon Linden: drake: that's a problem with your character params
[13:02] Sovereign Engineer: Tested it on default params.
[13:02] Falcon Linden: vincent: can you e-mail me? I'll see what I can do
[13:02] Falcon Linden: drake: I couldn't reproduce it
[13:02] Vincent Nacon: wait... email you what?
[13:03] Falcon Linden: still looking at the bugs
[13:03] Vincent Nacon: to remind you?
[13:03] Falcon Linden: vincent: a reminder about what you need to rez that
[13:03] Falcon Linden: yes
[13:03] Vincent Nacon: ok
[13:03] Falcon Linden: FadeOut, grrr. K, I read the bug report, that's gonna be annoying if it really is tied to PATHBUG-512
[13:03] Falcon Linden: err
[13:03] Falcon Linden: 51
[13:03] Vincent Nacon: muhaha!
[13:03] Sovereign Engineer: It only appeared after PATHBUG-51 was fixed.
[13:04] Falcon Linden: because we really only have two options, -51 or -64 in terms of that behavior. So we'll need to find a middle ground somehow and that'll take some doing
[13:04] Vincent Nacon: btw... I've made a better debugging script for pathfinding
[13:04] Falcon Linden: Still, I couldn't repro -64 neither could maestro
[13:05] Falcon Linden: so we'll need some more info of some kind. Not sure what, though. Maybe info on how it's affected by different desired speeds...
[13:05] Falcon Linden: vincent: cool. Post to the wiki?
[13:05] Sovereign Engineer: Actually one non default was was CHARACTER_DESIRED_SPEED
[13:05] Sovereign Engineer: forgot that
[13:05] Sovereign Engineer: only appears when changing that.
[13:05] Vincent Nacon: will do
[13:05] Falcon Linden: ah, so only with low desired speed?
[13:05] Sovereign Engineer: Yeah..
[13:05] Falcon Linden: I'm thinking it may be related to the fact that pursue/evade only update every 15 frames
[13:06] Falcon Linden: drake: also, try using PURSUIT_INTERCEPT or whatever it's called
[13:06] Falcon Linden: that uses predictive pursuit
[13:06] Falcon Linden: it's even smart predictive pursuit--it knows you can't walk through a wall
[13:06] Falcon Linden: anyone else have questions/problems/builds related to pathfinding?
[13:06] Rex Cronon: i can push through it. i think
[13:06] Falcon Linden: Rex: push through what?
[13:07] Rex Cronon: a wall
[13:07] Sovereign Engineer: Oh thanks falcon didn't know about that *needs to read wiki closer*
[13:07] Vincent Nacon: prim
[13:07] Falcon Linden: Vincent: what do you mean
[13:07] Falcon Linden: err
[13:07] Falcon Linden: vincent/rex/whoever
[13:07] Vincent Nacon: I was joking to say it's a prim instead of "wall"
[13:07] Falcon Linden: :P
[13:07] Flip Idlemind: So this question has nothing to do with actual beta testing but I'm just curious, any chance the LR Rock Monsters will get upgraded after pathfinding is released?
[13:07] Vincent Nacon: muhaha!
[13:07] Nalates Urriah: is path_update supposed to work with patrol?
[13:08] Rex Cronon: using lsl u can push yourself so hard, that u can tunnel through prims/wall
[13:08] Falcon Linden: flip: unlikely, but possible. Depends on how popular LR is at the time
[13:08] Vincent Nacon: oh yeah..... another thing about evade/pursue
[13:08] Falcon Linden: Nal: some events, but not near/at goal unless you set PATROL_PAUSE_AT_WAYPOINTS, TRUE
[13:08] Falcon Linden: which may or may not be documented...
[13:08] Falcon Linden: Rex: cheating. I don't care :P
[13:08] Vincent Nacon: they don't move till the target moves
[13:08] Nalates Urriah: :) not... thnx
[13:08] Falcon Linden: vicent: that was fixed a while back
[13:09] Vincent Nacon: how while back?
[13:09] Falcon Linden: at least a few weeks
[13:09] Vincent Nacon: well it's not working this weekend
[13:09] Falcon Linden: hard to imagine it breaking again, at least not for the same reason....
[13:09] Falcon Linden: vincent: kk. jirafy and note that it's a regression that popped up recently
[13:09] Vincent Nacon: must be something else with object update?
[13:09] Vincent Nacon: maybe
[13:09] Falcon Linden: could be. Try having it report its position
[13:10] Falcon Linden wishes everyone could use our internal physics debugger to verify issues
[13:10] Falcon Linden: Okay, last call for issues
[13:10] Falcon Linden: oh, also, a reminder
[13:10] Vincent Nacon: that might be it for now
[13:10] Falcon Linden: there is an old bug that has been exploited for some time involving creating a volume detect object and linking it as a child prim to something else
[13:10] Falcon Linden: it's been exploited to allow per-prim-phantomness
[13:11] Draconis Neurocam: that is a bug?
[13:11] Falcon Linden: It should have broken during the Havok 2010 upgrade a year and a half ago--not sure why it didn't. But it's broken now.
[13:11] Vincent Nacon: damn prim-ghost gonna get me... I know it
[13:11] MartinRJ Fayray: somebody said that 80% of the marketplace stores are messed up (mixed up items with other merchant's items and so on), I know this is totally off-topic but is that going to be fixed at any time?
[13:11] Falcon Linden: and I don't plan to fix it
[13:11] Falcon Linden: MartinRJ: that is way outside my domain
[13:11] Vincent Nacon: you don't?
[13:11] Vincent Nacon: LL gonna be mad
[13:11] Draconis Neurocam: i don't think it is a bug
[13:11] Falcon Linden: what I mean is, I don't plan to recreate that bug
[13:12] Falcon Linden: with the vollume detect
[13:12] Vincent Nacon: right
[13:12] Falcon Linden: draconis: yes, it is a bug.
[13:12] Fadeout Razorfen: oh hey falcon, i'm about the https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/PATHBUG-64 issue again... i've posted some new comments to help verifying the issue
[13:12] Falcon Linden: we never knew what caused it but I figured it out after we "broke" the misfeature
[13:12] Falcon Linden: fadeout: great, thanks
[13:12] Fadeout Razorfen: and prediction on llpursue has same effect... if you'd want to mention it
[13:13] Falcon Linden: the correct solution for per-prim-phantom is to use physics shape type none
[13:13] Vincent Nacon: hmmm do I want to know what you're using pathfinding for, Fade?
[13:13] Fadeout Razorfen: i'm creating an MMO in second life
[13:13] Keepers Karu: Yes! Do it! Do it!
[13:14] Fadeout Razorfen: for now i'm making something like 3rd person DOTA
[13:14] Falcon Linden: fadeout: please share with us internally, we'd love to see it. If it's not ready for public consumption, e-mail me directly
[13:14] Draconis Neurocam: it would be nice if physics shape none, did not force the linkset to use mesh accounting
[13:14] Falcon Linden: Okay, take care everyone. Thanks!
[13:14] Fadeout Razorfen: okay c:
[13:14] Vincent Nacon: he want your game! run!
[13:14] Falcon Linden: Draconis: I'd like a pony and a rainbow and a pot of gold
[13:14] Simon Linden: Thanks for coming today
[13:14] Rex Cronon: tc falscon
[13:14] Falcon Linden: :)
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