Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2014.08.19

Simulator_User_Group
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== List of Speakers ==
Adamburp Adamczyk	Jenna Felton
Kelly Linden 	Kennylex Luckless
Lucia Nightfire 	MB Robonaught
Mona Eberhardt 	Nalates Urriah
Oz Linden 	Qie Niangao
Rex Cronon 	Simon Linden
Talarus Luan 	
== Transcript ==
[12:00] Simon Linden: Hi everyone, let's get started ...
[12:01] Rex Cronon: hi simon
[12:01] Simon Linden: This week's server updates are detailed on the web site : http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2014-08-18/td-p/2802140
[12:01] Simon Linden: There will be new code on the RC channels tomorrow with a crash fix.
[12:01] Simon Linden: so there's not much going on
[12:02] Simon Linden: That's all the news I have ... I've been on vacation and am getting back up to speed
[12:02] Simon Linden: Oz ... any news this week?
[12:03] Oz Linden: Nothing much... we've had lots of vacations.. it's that time of year
[12:03] Simon Linden: So the table is open for topics or questions ... fire away
[12:03] Mona Eberhardt: Any thoughts on the mirror reflection contribution that Zi Ree proposed?
[12:03] Kennylex Luckless: Can I ask if other here has problem with new Firestorm, mine do derez things I not look at really fast and when I turn around again it load again, so my net traffic is so much higher than before and I has constant lag.
[12:03] Nalates Urriah: How did your meeting go last week?
[12:04] Kennylex Luckless: That was best meeting ever...
[12:04] Oz Linden: None of those are server questions... but if we don't have any of those...
[12:04] Adamburp Adamczyk: i know i sent an emial to my local council, then relaised the header was "dear ldpw"
[12:04] Oz Linden: Our meetings (and the social event that preceded them) were great
[12:04] Simon Linden: sure, go ahead with viewer stuff ... theres' not much happening server-side
[12:04] Kennylex Luckless: Load from server all the time.... that is server question if it can affect servers if all reload all the time.
[12:04] Talarus Luan: Well, I would ask how the XP beta is going, but I don't think much has changed. :P
[12:05] Oz Linden: I have not heard yet that there have been any effects on us as a result of the Firestorm release
[12:06] Oz Linden: Which is good, and not a surprise
[12:07] Nalates Urriah: I had the turn-around-and-re-render-everything in the Sl Viewer too. So, that may not be a FS problem.
[12:07] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Kenny, how are you measuring the higher net traffic? If you are comparing the readings in the statistics window for "Bandwidth" on the 4.6.5 viewer with "UDP data received" on the 4.7.6 viewer, you can't compare those 2 values. UDP data received is always a lot higher and this change came with viewer-interesting. I see this too and its the same on the official viewer.
[12:07] Oz Linden: I believe that this FS version included the interest list changes, Kenny, so having things rez differently is certainly expected; but you'd have to ask them about that
[12:07] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): *4.6.7
[12:07] Kennylex Luckless: I see the bandwidth jumping on the roof every time I turnaround now
[12:08] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): But how are you measuring "bandwidth". Are you using "UDP data received" in stats?
[12:08] Nalates Urriah: Kenny that happens pretty much with all viewers.
[12:08] Rex Cronon: there must be some prims that r stalking u kennylex;)
[12:08] Kennylex Luckless: Before it did keep stuff in memoru and when I did turnaround I just got a tiny but bandwidth load
[12:09] Kennylex Luckless: Yes... I has to sink so low I may use LL wiver... it still the fastest one .-)
[12:09] Oz Linden: Let's not get into that debate, please
[12:10] Kennylex Luckless: Agree.
[12:10] Qie Niangao: So... one server-side thing that's come up during Experience beta, but broader than that: a desire to be able to affect avatar pos *and* *rotation* without requiring them to explicitly sit. So, http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlSit is one proposal, or a way for attachments to rotate the avatar. Any idea whether it's worth jira-requesting the latter, or if the former is a possibility with XP?
[12:10] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Well, if you see a difference in behaviour between the official viewer "UDP data received" reading in stats and what you see on Firestorm under identical conditions , a JIRA issue would be appreciated.
[12:10] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): But you cannot compare the old "Bandwidth" reading with "UDP data received"
[12:10] Lucia Nightfire: llSit() shouldn't be allowed imo, heh
[12:11] Oz Linden: As for the mirror proposal... it's not yet complete enough to be evaluated because it doesn't work with Advanced Lighting enabled. When it does, we'll take a look at it.
[12:11] Qie Niangao: well, llSit *could* be perfectly safe, but would require some extension to the permissions model, beyond what XP is doing so far.
[12:11] Kennylex Luckless: I use HTTP for Inventory and texture, shall I change that setting?
[12:11] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Its working with ALM now Oz. But still some bugs there, like glow not being reelected with ALM enabled yet. But its coming along :)
[12:12] Mona Eberhardt: Does it also reflect shininess and materials, Whirly?
[12:12] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Yus
[12:12] Qie Niangao: *or* there could be a simpler, basic "move and rotate avatar" that's independent of sit and attach altogether... which is what I'd favour, if I were designing from scratch.
[12:12] Simon Linden: llSit() would be interesting from an experience point of view, but would certainly need to be careful about permissions
[12:13] Nalates Urriah: I hear Geenz is working on better environmental reflections...
[12:13] Talarus Luan: What about the old llPointAt functionality. Didn't it used to turn the avatar?
[12:13] Lucia Nightfire: there should simply be a means to move & rot the av by script
[12:13] Qie Niangao: Tal, if it did, it was before my time.
[12:13] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): I saw Geenz is working on getting materials to work in foreword rendering too, which is awesome.
[12:13] Lucia Nightfire: and I mean set pos or set rot, not anything requiring physics or sitting
[12:13] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): He hid his repo though grrrrr. I can't wait to play with that
[12:14] Mona Eberhardt: What's that, Whirly?
[12:14] Rex Cronon: there should be a better a way to move ave body parts beside using animations...
[12:14] Talarus Luan: Says it was never enabled.
[12:14] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-7023 - Add support for materials in basic shaders Mona
[12:15] Mona Eberhardt: Thank you.
[12:15] Qie Niangao: well, yeah, physics would be ugly anyway, but the thing about sitting is that it *locks* the position & rotation, which is kinda important for playing animations on the avatar. So that would be needed.
[12:16] Mona Eberhardt: Now, if we could get lights and shininess/materials reflected in the water, even as an option for those moments when we want to do machinima or some super-high quality snapshots...
[12:16] Lucia Nightfire: same as it would be with standing if there was a means of setting av pos and/or rot, just with sitting you can bypass collisions
[12:16] Simon Linden: you get animations perms along with the sit too
[12:17] Qie Niangao: right, but in XP, we have anim perms anyway...
[12:17] Lucia Nightfire: unless in an experience, heh
[12:17] Qie Niangao: the messy bit is that there's no way to plant the darn avatar where you want, pointed in the direction you want, long enough to animate them doing what you want.
[12:18] Simon Linden: how are you thinking about the experience ... like people move about, then they sit/animate when they get to some position or state? I'm trying to understand what this gives beyond just having people sit and moving that object all over
[12:19] MB Robonaught: I have a question if I may
[12:19] MB Robonaught: Has there been a change that when checking script times of an object erroneous results are returned? I have an object that ran at 0.100 for months then suddenly increased to 0.700 over night. removing and rerezzing does not fix this nor does replacing the scripts with new ones and appears to only be with this one object. This happened right after a hardware upgrade. Any help would be appreciated.
[12:19] Qie Niangao: yeah, if they'll voluntarily sit, it's fine. If not, though, the experience is kinda dead... and it's far from intuitive that they should "sit" in order to climb a ladder or other animated position-sensitive stuff.
[12:20] Simon Linden: MB - I don't know of any changes that would do that. Do you have a date or guess when it changed?
[12:20] Simon Linden: Thanks Qie - that makes sense to me
[12:20] MB Robonaught: week ago today
[12:21] Rex Cronon: u can make ladder show the option of "climb"
[12:21] MB Robonaught: I have filed tickets but haven't got very far
[12:22] Jenna Felton: make the avater move, sit or animate around, could be nice for a zombie experience when you die and become a zombie :)
[12:22] Simon Linden: do you know what server channel that was on?
[12:22] Jenna Felton: but actually you can do all that by make the avie wear an object that performs the zombification
[12:22] MB Robonaught: it was on magnum but a change to the mainmade no difference
[12:23] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Hmm the RCs didn't roll last week
[12:23] Jenna Felton: except sitting on something, i think
[12:23] MB Robonaught: this was a hardware change according to the person in live chat
[12:23] Simon Linden: yeah, the whole grid has the same version right now
[12:23] Qie Niangao: (It's not actually *my* Experience-in-progress that's hitting the wall with llSit()-like need... but it's the kind of stuff that RLV does that would be nice if XP did, too.)
[12:23] Lucia Nightfire: llSit() would have to be an owner only executable permission like teleporting unless inside an experience
[12:23] Lucia Nightfire: otherwise I fear the abuse
[12:24] MB Robonaught: I don't want to redo 6 months of coding if the numbers are wrong but don't mind if the upgrade changed how scripts are process
[12:24] Simon Linden: yes Lucy - it would need to be restricted pretty well
[12:24] Jenna Felton: yes Lucy
[12:24] Qie Niangao: agreed
[12:29] Simon Linden: well - things are pretty quiet today, so I'm going to do some stuff in the background and hang out unless there are other things to discuss
[12:30] Lucia Nightfire: I would ask what shiney's are on the horizon, but, lol
[12:30] Lucia Nightfire: shiney desks awaiting returning vacationers
[12:30] Simon Linden: we can't tell you in any case ... but they're really nice and shiny, if there were any ;)
[12:31] Lucia Nightfire: ok, then its wishlist time
[12:31] Lucia Nightfire: can anyone look at fixing BUG-2301
[12:32] Rex Cronon: so, any progress made in trying to put a stop to "bombing" sims?
[12:32] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Heh that ones a pest
[12:32] Lucia Nightfire: Rex bombing will be here until SL2
[12:32] Simon Linden: interesting, I've never heard that one before
[12:32] Simon Linden: do you know if the viewer ever gets the full update after attaching?
[12:32] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Dead easy to repro
[12:33] Lucia Nightfire: I have a HUD that is rezzed from a rezzed object that suffers from that bug unless the rezzer rezzes it out of the interest range
[12:33] Rex Cronon: the thing is. it would take only one good programmer one to max three days to fix "bombing"...
[12:33] Lucia Nightfire: atm, I'm rezzing it at 4095m which helps while the user is at almost any practical altitude
[12:33] Qie Niangao: I suppose the old llSetText kludge doesn't workaround with a forced full update?
[12:34] Simon Linden: I'd be curious to try that in a quiet region (without a ton of updates, like here) and enable the "show updates" to see what occurs or not
[12:34] Lucia Nightfire: and settext updates or prim param updates won't fix that bug
[12:34] Simon Linden: then I'm not sure how HUDs get those
[12:35] Simon Linden: I'm making some guesses but it seems like a pretty isolated situation (attaching as HUD) where it wouldn't be difficult to ensure a full update is sent
[12:35] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Hmm can't tell. I see nothing :D
[12:35] Lucia Nightfire: thsi repro's in any region btw, does in my own quiet region where there is absolutely nothign goign on, and with any draw distance too, whether in a bordered region or not
[12:35] Kelly Linden: wonder if it is showing (in your viewer) near the region 0,0,0 corner
[12:36] Simon Linden: The interest list is a bit complex around HUDs because only the owner can see them, and you are always subscribed to get their updates
[12:36] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): My scripting sucks. Is there a quick script I can add to the HUD to chat its position?
[12:36] Lucia Nightfire: I think it does Kelly, because you can select the object before it attaches at the edit cross hairs briefly look like they're going to zero vector
[12:37] Kelly Linden: if the viewer doesn't update the position to be relative to the avatar, any updates could just be slamming the relative position as a region position? (I'm guessing)
[12:37] Rex Cronon: llOwnerSay(llGetObjectName()+" @ "+llGetPos());
[12:38] Lucia Nightfire: afaik, its a visible thing, as pos reports it at your pos
[12:38] Object: Hello, Avatar!
[12:38] Kelly Linden: if it is a viewer side bug then LSL isn't going to tell you anything useful.
[12:38] Object: <213.59740, 49.10442, 31.98132>
[12:39] Object: <213.71100, 49.01865, 32.96127>
[12:39] Object: <215.03180, 49.44897, 31.98132>
[12:40] Lucia Nightfire: I'm surprised the bug doesn't repro easily in the cornfield with its game HUD
[12:40] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Hmm if you hold the HUD in edit when its on the ground and attach it to HUD while its still held in edit, then that bug doesn't reproduce
[12:40] Lucia Nightfire: esp with the players that enter the region on the other side where the rezzers are not at
[12:40] Jenna Felton: perhaps temp worn huds are handled differently
[12:40] Object: <213.86060, 49.24969, 31.98132>
[12:41] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): It repros with just 2 boxes linked together
[12:41] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Doesnt repro with a single box though
[12:42] Lucia Nightfire: I'd demo my HUD here but its experience based
[12:43] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Is that the one I tried?
[12:43] Lucia Nightfire: yeah, I converted it to exp
[12:43] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Which I couldnt see? lol
[12:43] Lucia Nightfire: yeah, lol
[12:43] Lucia Nightfire: thats the bug
[12:43] Lucia Nightfire: and its weird why you can relog and it will work from then on
[12:43] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): ...and it can't be detached and reattached because its a temp attach heh
[12:43] Qie Niangao: is it temp-attached?? cuz... I didn't notice this in cornfield, nor with Loki's HUD
[12:44] Lucia Nightfire: cf sets their attachments temp on rez
[12:44] Lucia Nightfire: my HUD is mostly mesh too, not sure if that even matters
[12:44] Object: <214.70850, 49.14441, 32.96126>
[12:45] Lucia Nightfire: but it has some legacy prims and they don't show either
[12:45] Lucia Nightfire: the root is legacy too and doesn't show
[12:45] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): 2 default box prims linked repro the bug though
[12:46] Lucia Nightfire: ya
[12:46] Lucia Nightfire: but if its not in your draw distance it won't
[12:46] Simon Linden: it just reproduced for me with 1 cube prim
[12:46] Lucia Nightfire: which is why I have success attaching from extrememly high altitude
[12:46] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): oooo
[12:47] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Hmmm Its never failed for me with just a single cube prim
[12:47] Simon Linden: at the usual default size?
[12:48] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Default size doesn't repro. <0.13849, 0.13849, 0.13849> size didn't repro
[12:48] Simon Linden: hmm that time worked fine
[12:49] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): 2 default boxes linked always fails for me though
[12:49] Simon Linden: yeah, I see that too
[12:50] Object: Hello, Avatar!
[12:50] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): I think its really old. I don't remember it ever working since https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-884 was reported
[12:50] Kennylex Luckless: take care all and have fun, I has to go
[12:51] Rex Cronon: tc kennylex
[12:52] Lucia Nightfire: lol
[12:52] Qie Niangao: Thanks, Lindens, and have fun all.
[12:52] Lucia Nightfire: I also have a test for anyone that wants to try with llUnsit()
[12:52] Lucia Nightfire: as theres two weirdness behaviours that can come up
[12:53] Simon Linden: ok ... well, I nudged the internal report on this a little higher so we'll see if it can get some attention. The first step would be determining what kind of updates the viewer is getting or missing
[12:53] Rex Cronon: u 2 qie
[12:53] Simon Linden: it might be server or viewer
[12:53] Lucia Nightfire: thanks Simon
[12:53] Lucia Nightfire: default
[12:53] Lucia Nightfire: place that script in a cube
[12:53] Object: Hello, Avatar!
[12:53] Lucia Nightfire: then repeatedly sit on it
[12:54] Lucia Nightfire: there two random bugs
[12:54] Lucia Nightfire: one, you get offset some distance away
[12:54] Lucia Nightfire: even outside the sim
[12:54] Lucia Nightfire: the other is you get knocked around
[12:54] Lucia Nightfire: for a few seconds
[12:55] Lucia Nightfire: and suddenyl we have chat lag
[12:55] Talarus Luan: yeah.. is why I usually put a llSleep() before the llUnsit()
[12:55] Lucia Nightfire: lol
[12:55] Simon Linden: well, when you un-sit the server basically moves you a little up and forward and gives you a push
[12:55] Talarus Luan: That bug has been around for a decade
[12:55] Lucia Nightfire: Jenna got knocked around first try it seems
[12:55] Simon Linden: that can go bad depending on where you are
[12:55] Lucia Nightfire: I've never seen either of those before
[12:55] Rex Cronon: your script lagged chat;)
[12:56] Rex Cronon: i mean code
[12:56] Lucia Nightfire: yeah it seemed chat lag started right after my LSL post
[12:56] Jenna Felton: seems the other prims around do not interfer the bug
[12:57] MB Robonaught: the chat server has becomeself aware and was trying to understand the code °?°
[12:57] Lucia Nightfire: heh
[12:57] MB Robonaught: j/k °?°
[12:58] Lucia Nightfire: gonan file a jira about these bugs as I can't seem to find info on them
[12:58] Rex Cronon: lets see if this works:
[12:58] Lucia Nightfire: *gonna
[12:58] Rex Cronon: llDie();
[12:58] Rex Cronon: nope
[12:59] Lucia Nightfire: noticed these two bugs when I included an unsit in an exp based teleporter
[13:00] Lucia Nightfire: first time I got sent outside my sim, then afterwards got thrown around
[13:00] Talarus Luan: Try a sleep before the unsit
[13:00] Talarus Luan: Around 0.5 s works pretty good, I have found
[13:00] Lucia Nightfire: yeah I could try to banaid it, but the problem is I shouldn't have to
[13:00] MB Robonaught: thanks for the meeting see you all next week °?°
[13:00] Lucia Nightfire: *bandaid
[13:01] Talarus Luan: Well, everyone else has for a lonnnnnnng time, so...
[13:01] Lucia Nightfire: old bug has to die, sorry
[13:01] Talarus Luan: Yeah, I have said that a lot of times, too.. :P
[13:01] Talarus Luan: Yet they still persist :P
[13:02] Simon Linden: Thanks everyone for coming this week ... we'll see you next time
Simulator_User_Group
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