Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.01.15

Simulator_User_Group
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== List of Speakers ==
ANSI Soderstrom 	Jonathan Yap
Kaleb Silvercloud	Kennylex Luckless
Lares Carter 	Lucia Nightfire
Motor Loon 	Qie Niangao
Rex Cronon 	Simon Linden
Theresa Tennyson 	Tillie Ariantho
Yuzuru Jewell 	
== Transcript ==
[12:02] Simon Linden: ok, let's see ... for server release news, we didn't have a promotion to the main channel today because the code in RC had an issue with region crossings
[12:02] Qie Niangao: Hi Inara, all. :)
[12:03] Simon Linden: The crash rate was high when we had the new threaded code enabled, so that was disabled after a short time in RC
[12:04] Tillie Ariantho: Are there any issues with avatar baking lately? I often change skins and dont get them shown on the avatar past few days...
[12:05] Simon Linden: Tomorrow we should be getting new RC code ... I'm not sure if the threaded crossing one will be back or if it's going to wait until next week. The testing and fixing has been going on since we found those problems, but I'm not sure if it's ready to come back yet
[12:05] Simon Linden: I haven't heard of anything specific about texture baking, Tillie
[12:05] Kaleb Silvercloud: was the bit of code responsible for the crashes found and then the person who submitted it to the repository was pointed at and ridiculed by the rest of the dev team with a barrage of nerf missiles? :)
[12:05] Jonathan Yap: Will the new Magnum code be going out?
[12:05] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
[12:06] Simon Linden: The current plan for releases is here: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2013-01-14/td-p/1823383
[12:06] Simon Linden: The interest list code will be in RC, as well as another set of bug fixes from the maintenance folks
[12:07] Simon Linden: We might discuss getting the crossing code out as well at a meeting today, but I'm not sure about the last-minute change in plans
[12:08] Simon Linden: That's about it for server news, so the invisible table is open for topics
[12:08] Motor Loon: fair enough, we dont want it unless it's awesome °?°
[12:08] Theresa Tennyson: It seemed like the region crossing code got released pretty quickly.
[12:09] Simon Linden: It's been in the works for a long time, Theresa ... it was bogged down for a bit and finally one developer took the time to bring it back, give it a big overhaul and get it ready. It's been tough to test, however
[12:10] Simon Linden: It's obviously easy to just cross a few regions and see if it blows up, but being multi-threaded code, it really needs a lot of long-term and stress testing
[12:10] Theresa Tennyson: Lately I"ve had a lot of problems with swinging doors having their positions updated when I open/shut them the first time I log in. I have to right-click my house to update their position. Is that a viewer issue or an interest-list issue?
[12:10] Simon Linden: That took some time and like last week, we don't find some things until we get better real-virtual-world usage
[12:11] Simon Linden: I don't know Theresa, but I've noticed the same thing with some large ground / pavement prims. Things are missing until I right-click on them
[12:11] Rex Cronon: maybe they r not missing. maybe they r not drawn?
[12:12] Theresa Tennyson: The viewer doesn't update their position until you poke it.
[12:12] Simon Linden: It could be, Rex. They're fine once I right-click, but somehow never get on the screen until then
[12:12] Lucia Nightfire: I see that all the time, heh
[12:12] Tillie Ariantho: Some larger prims in front of my house with a paris skyline on it often vanish. it's plain, curved prims. No sculpts or something...
[12:12] Motor Loon: I'm seeing lots of that stuff, the rightclick-to-fix-stuff... for me most annoying is mesh vehicles going invisible on simcrossings... rightclick and they pop right back visually
[12:13] Tillie Ariantho: Clicking them doesnt help, they are not there, I need to TP away and back to get them shown.
[12:13] Jonathan Yap: Packet loss?
[12:13] Simon Linden: If it's a server-side issue, the upcoming interest list code might change things
[12:13] Jonathan Yap: Would that explain the trouble?
[12:13] Tillie Ariantho: I have a very low packet loss rate.
[12:14] Simon Linden: Packet loss could definitely do things like that
[12:14] Motor Loon: Packets Lost: 0/80,610 (0.0%) here, which is normal for me.
[12:14] Jonathan Yap: I would think prims by your house would be cached, too
[12:14] Tillie Ariantho: But if its observed by many people its probably packet loss on Linden end or a server issue.
[12:15] Simon Linden: There's a lot of places between the sim world data and your screen that can go wrong, so we're kinda guessing at this point
[12:15] Tillie Ariantho: Current packet loss: 0.0%
[12:15] Simon Linden: Knowing if different people see the same effect also helps indicate if it's server or viewer side
[12:15] Rex Cronon: u know what it would help? if the viewer could display a tree of all objects drawn on screen:)
[12:16] Simon Linden: The viewer has a bunch of diagnostics in it that I only know a little bit about
[12:17] Tillie Ariantho: Yah, but it's always "reset your router, speedtest your provider, reinstall your client" ... we all are from very different places, different hardware, different networks, that all isn't failing just right now. :P
[12:18] Tillie Ariantho: Like the proxy guy in our company, I always have to send him a network dump to show him his proxy is the problem. :P
[12:18] Simon Linden: yeah, trouble-shooting network issues can be an adventure :P
[12:18] Rex Cronon: it would also be useful if we could see what objects are in local cache:)
[12:19] Lares Carter: There were always issues with prim position and rotation changed by script not updating. There were ways to force an update. I think it was fixed for some time but I've noticed it a lot recently and worse than before. I am trying to find the JIRA for it.
[12:19] Lares Carter: Not updating first time you see the object after TP that is.
[12:20] Tillie Ariantho: Lares: yes.
[12:20] Kaleb Silvercloud: I might see a door and then turn away from it and then someone else opens the door while it's not in my view..I turn around and for the space of 2 seconds that door is still closed and then updates to being open.
[12:20] Tillie Ariantho: So see ALL in my house I usually have to log in there, wait, TP out, TP back, then all is visible.
[12:20] Rex Cronon: maybe each objects should have a progress bar above it that says "100% donloaded" or "20% downloading":)
[12:20] Theresa Tennyson: I've also seen problems with pose balls not showing up immediately after rezzing. The appear after I have the menu change their position.
[12:20] Simon Linden: There's such a burst of data after TPing into a new place ... the ground, all the objects around you, new textures, AVs, animations, etc ... that's when you're likely to stress your network and maybe see some packet loss with the UDP updates
[12:21] Rex Cronon: downloaded*
[12:21] Lares Carter: I think https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-12987 is at least related.
[12:21] Tillie Ariantho: The world I live in shouldn't be based on udp. I really rely on having a floor below my feet, not MAYBE. :P
[12:22] Simon Linden: yeah, it would be nice to use a time machine and go back to tweak the SL network protocol design :P
[12:23] Jonathan Yap: Just shut the grid down and when it comes up require a new viewer version :P
[12:23] Simon Linden: But UDP is pretty good for regular updates ... the trick is making sure the last one always got there :)
[12:23] Lucia Nightfire: I remember those days
[12:23] Jonathan Yap: I always looked forward to see what new changes the viewer had in those days
[12:24] Kaleb Silvercloud: if that happens then they should push version 1 avatar mesh and version 2 avatar mesh. :P Let you decide which one you would like to use and yet still support the old one for old content and the new one for new content..but that's out of scope for the meeting....but one can still wish, I guess. :)
[12:25] Lares Carter: VWR-12987 is the bug of doors not updating rotation until right clicked. Prims not showing up after TP is a different issues afaik.
[12:25] Tillie Ariantho: Looks like user profiles are using udp too. I can click anyone's profile here and it stays empty ...
[12:25] Simon Linden: It's not too hard to code for that kind of thing now, Kaleb ... the viewer has a bunch of things that try to find a capabilities interface on the server, and will use new or old code depending on that
[12:26] Motor Loon: hm... interesting... my viewer wont seem to load profiles either
[12:26] Simon Linden: The old profiles might be ... the SL viewer now uses the http web pages all the time
[12:26] Simon Linden: I just loaded on in the SL viewer fine
[12:26] Simon Linden: one
[12:26] Motor Loon: yeah webprofiles
[12:26] Rex Cronon: simon. there seems there something wrong with the grid right now
[12:26] Motor Loon: nobody likes those eh? °?°
[12:27] Theresa Tennyson: It's another cage-match thing.
[12:27] Lucia Nightfire: sounds like alot of problems with things in beta group chat
[12:27] Lares Carter: The web profiles are no fun, they take too long to load.
[12:27] Tillie Ariantho: I just tried the old 'click name in chat to open profile window' thingy in Cool VL Viewer. Old profiles then. Maybe Henry should replace them with web profiles. ;)
[12:28] Kaleb Silvercloud: yeah I think many people liked the old profiles better....the new profiles are more independant in the fact that changes are just made in a web template and some php code and not in the viewer.
[12:28] Simon Linden: yeah, there's something borked with the grid now ... it might be a good time to hold off on buying L$ or changing clothes :P
[12:28] Jonathan Yap: A note just came through about unscheduled maintenance
[12:28] Tillie Ariantho: Yah.
[12:29] Simon Linden listens for sounds of explosions or screaming
[12:29] Kaleb Silvercloud: that's the cue for the interns to run out and do a starbucks run for the dev team. :D
[12:29] Tillie Ariantho: haha
[12:29] Motor Loon: ah redirect on secondlife.com ...
[12:30] Simon Linden: Fortunately the dev team usually doesn't have to run into the burning buildings, but we will help sift through the ashes and try to fix things so it doesn't go up in smoke again
[12:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[12:31] Motor Loon: when things are burned to the ground - they rarely catch fire again ,-)
[12:32] Kaleb Silvercloud: server hamster got loose..chaos ensues....
[12:32] Simon Linden: oh, we just sweep it up and pull out a big pile of dried timber and straw thatch and start re-building right away
[12:32] Motor Loon: lol
[12:33] Kaleb Silvercloud: So if we wanted avatar version 2..who would be the person to pester? Is there some art department minion or something to contact?
[12:33] Motor Loon: Oh... I ran into something today while working on a vehicle... is there a reason why it's not allowed to set a sittings avatars physics shape to "none"? - seems it would be rather useful for many applications
[12:33] Motor Loon: espicially now when VolumeDetect cant do that anymore
[12:33] Tillie Ariantho: I'd really like to see one more info after that kind of grid disruption. Just the 'works again' message is not really satisfying. If someone added stuff like "routing problem between co-locations", "asset server died, you maybe have 'item not found' messages till we restored from backup" etc would be way better.
[12:33] Simon Linden: It sure would help you avoid bullets on a combat sim :)
[12:34] Kaleb Silvercloud: people should be using llcastray bullets anyways...:P
[12:34] Rex Cronon: i think thillie is right
[12:34] Motor Loon: personally I was working on a little Mesh zodiac boat, and wanted my avatar NOT to collide with the ground under the boat - should it be sailed onto a beach...
[12:35] Lares Carter: Sounds like a good idea, Motor. I would support that too.
[12:36] Lucia Nightfire: Has there been any progress on the following PATH-887, MAINT-1854, MAINT-1855, MAINT-2149, MAINT-2156, MAINT-2197 ?
[12:36] Simon Linden: I know that info would certainly tell you more about what happened, and I can pass along your request, but developers like myself and others that come here don't usually get involved with that kind of communication
[12:36] Tillie Ariantho: We don't need to know all the gory details of a grid issue, but at least a bit of information would be helpful.
[12:37] Lares Carter: For cars and trucks it's good to have the sit target outside of the vehicle to avoid being shut through the roof when standing up. Being able to set physics shape none for avatars would be beneficial for that too.
[12:37] Theresa Tennyson: Are the grid status-es localized for languages?
[12:37] Tillie Ariantho: Or does "Your World. Your Imagination." mean we have to imagine what happened? :P
[12:37] Motor Loon: Indeed lares
[12:37] Rex Cronon: the aliens:)
[12:38] Kaleb Silvercloud: Grid Status: Coffee spilt on router. Intern flogged. :)
[12:38] Motor Loon: "It's funny because it's true"
[12:38] Simon Linden looks at the cables he recently cleaned out from under his desk and wonders
[12:39] Simon Linden: Lucy - that's a big list, but yes, some of those have fixes that are in the testing/release pipeline
[12:39] Rex Cronon: maybe those rats that chewed your fibers r busy at work again;)
[12:39] Lucia Nightfire: great, because they're all allegedly related to crashes
[12:39] Motor Loon: Mabye it's a secret (too) but I was wondering this morning: I remember hearing about a very large hardware purchase LL did recently, and was wondering what that was for... if it's not a secret...?
[12:40] Simon Linden: yeah ... we've been working on the crash rate for a while now and it's coming back down nicely. It's still not where I'd like it to be, but it's going in the right direction with more fixes in the pipeline
[12:40] Theresa Tennyson: Speaking of secrets, there are no region names on the map.
[12:40] Lares Carter: Is Falcon Linden still available at User Groups? Been some time since I've last seen him at the SBUG meeting.
[12:40] Tillie Ariantho: It's probably the Death Star from the petition that failed. US gov doesnt pay for it, but maybe LL does. :P
[12:41] Simon Linden: We're having problems with slow re-sizer scripts and missing prims on our Death Star
[12:41] Tillie Ariantho: It's probably not missing prims, you just need to set your view range to larger than 512m. :P
[12:42] Motor Loon: I was kinda hoping LL was preparing the system with new hardware to support extra load - before they started a massive and expensive marketing campaign and wanted to be ready for 100.000 people online at the same time °?° ... mabye its just wishful thinking eh? ;-)
[12:42] Tillie Ariantho: :D
[12:42] Motor Loon: ...but ofcourse a deathstar is cool too...
[12:42] Kaleb Silvercloud: I was joking earlier about art department minions but there is strong community support for a new avatar mesh. Supporting both old and new avatar mesh seems the only viable solution for letting users opt in to higher detailed avatar meshes while still supporting the old mesh and content created for the original avatar mesh.. As it is right now anyone can make a complete avatar mesh but without proper standardization, it's very hard for people to adopt. That's why it would need to be something initiated by the lab and a higher quality avatar mesh would create a better first experience for new members.
[12:44] Rex Cronon: btw interesting avatar simon. is that the outline man:)
[12:44] Simon Linden: yeah, I"m not familiar with a lot of the details about AV meshes, but I can understand a next-step forward would be really welcomed
[12:47] Kaleb Silvercloud: Yeah..the thing is the community really doesn't know who they could approach to bring that up to. Which is why I mentioned if there might be an art department of some type or someone would might be the go-to person to take a serious look at implimentation.
[12:47] Motor Loon: It's been talked about for many years Kaleb
[12:47] Jonathan Yap: Send Oz Linden an email -- something like that would have to go in front of the Product Team, or even higher.
[12:48] Simon Linden: yes ... and while progress may seem slow, it can happen ... the new materials work is going to make it out
[12:48] Motor Loon: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Avatar_2.0
[12:49] Motor Loon: materials might help a great deal... once Second Life™ "already" supports proper displacement maps, mabye it'd not be superhard to implement it for avatars
[12:49] Rex Cronon: what does this mean "[12:43] *** parent estate: 0" i am getting that in group chat
[12:49] Simon Linden: It's potentially a lot of work, but I've found in all sorts of projects that a working demo is worth months and months of talking .. if you can show something that makes their jaws drop, they'll want it :)
[12:50] Simon Linden: It means the grid is angry, Rex. Things are borked right now
[12:50] Jonathan Yap: The materials system will require Deferred rendering to be on
[12:50] Motor Loon: yeah... thats sorta a problem
[12:50] Motor Loon: but hopefully everybody will use deferred some day
[12:50] Jonathan Yap: I wonder if LL has a way of knowing what percentage of people run at that level
[12:51] Theresa Tennyson: Motor, we still have people who resent sculpted prims.
[12:51] Simon Linden: SL is facing an interesting problem as we want to cover such a wide range of graphics capabilities
[12:51] Tillie Ariantho: There are many people who only can afford a netbook, they all wont have deferred rendering.
[12:51] Jonathan Yap: Also, a computer might be able to run deferred, but the fps is too low to make it worthwhile
[12:51] Simon Linden: netbooks ... it would be nice to get onto tablets and such in a usable way too
[12:51] Rex Cronon: btw. it looks like TPs don't work. so we r stuck here for a while...
[12:51] Motor Loon: We'll send those to OpenSim Theresa... a proper deportation °?°
[12:52] Simon Linden: I suspect logins have been shut down too, but that's a guess
[12:52] Tillie Ariantho: Yes, I guess stuff like the iPad can do way better graphics than any netbook. :P
[12:52] Theresa Tennyson: There's also a growing clamor for SL on tablets/phones.
[12:52] Tillie Ariantho: But problem is: people need some computer. netbook is cheap, they buy it.
[12:53] Tillie Ariantho: They dont looks for a notebook that is almost as cheep or a tablet. :-/
[12:53] Theresa Tennyson: Tillie, if you try to make an iPad model a polygon it'll whimper like a hipster who smells gluten.
[12:53] Tillie Ariantho: look
[12:53] Simon Linden: lol Theresa
[12:53] Rex Cronon: there is no way that the ipad has better graphics than the latest graphics card with most memory and connected to the best motherboard:)
[12:53] Tillie Ariantho: ^^
[12:54] Lucia Nightfire: I remember one time it was bad enough that I flew 20 sims to get to a destination as tp's and logins were failing.
[12:54] Yuzuru Jewell: Tablet or high spec PC ?
[12:54] Kaleb Silvercloud: yeah logins are shut down....a friend is upset that she couldn't log in for the meeting.
[12:55] Tillie Ariantho: Many people just want to be inworld, meeting people, they dont wanna see 20.000.000 poligon models. There should be a way get only get reduced versions of the objects, like LOD, but server side. ;)
[12:55] Rex Cronon: u can't login, u can't tp, u can't rez, u can't buy. what is left? talking and grop chat.
[12:55] Simon Linden: The new server-side texture baking is going to be interesting for a few phone clients ... I'm hopeful those will at least give us non-grey avatars
[12:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[12:55] Simon Linden: Hi ANSI -- did you manage to TP or log in here?
[12:56] Tillie Ariantho: Next message is that telefone support is going down for maintainance... cant cope the load. ;D
[12:56] ANSI Soderstrom: all fine again, thanks... and hello
[12:56] ANSI Soderstrom: but the grid lost 23.000 Users
[12:56] Rex Cronon: hi u made it. now u r stuck here:)
[12:56] Jonathan Yap: non-updated veiwers will just see clouds? or did you stick with the existing avatar appeareance packet type?
[12:56] ANSI Soderstrom: http://secondlife.gehostet.de/lang/de/status/visitors/
[12:56] Kaleb Silvercloud: whatcha mean group chat....group chat is broken half the time for many groups....it's an looming albatross...
[12:57] Rex Cronon: is working as normal;) the gorup chat i mean
[12:57] Rex Cronon: thanks
[12:57] Kaleb Silvercloud: snafu?
[12:57] Simon Linden: yeah, I hear logins are being enabled again
[12:57] Kaleb Silvercloud: situation normal...all f'd up. :)
[12:58] Rex Cronon: ok. what is it ansi?
[12:58] ANSI Soderstrom: a prim graphics engine
[12:58] Simon Linden: nice particle effect there
[12:58] Motor Loon: "Oooh shiny!"
[12:58] Jonathan Yap: Has anyone made a 3-d version of The Game of Life?
[12:58] Kennylex Luckless: Melony.
[12:59] Theresa Tennyson: It's already 3D or you couldn't spin the thing or move your little car, chah...
[13:00] Rex Cronon: to do that jonathan u would have to user replicators. that can be dangerous. i t can lead to bans...
[13:00] Lucia Nightfire: there are still bans?
[13:00] Jonathan Yap: no rex, you just need a lot of prims
[13:00] Lucia Nightfire: lol
[13:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[13:00] Simon Linden: Thanks everyone for coming today and the good chat
[13:00] Qie Niangao: Thanks Simon
[13:01] Jonathan Yap: thank you Simon
[13:01] Rex Cronon: oh. just a grid and u change colors?
[13:01] Simon Linden: Good luck with your TPs home :)
[13:01] ANSI Soderstrom: i missed almost all, but things happens
[13:01] Lares Carter: Thanks for the meeting. :)
[13:01] Rex Cronon: tc simon
[13:01] Jonathan Yap: good luck with the rolls tomorrow
[13:01] Yuzuru Jewell: thank you, Simon.
Simulator_User_Group
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