Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.11.19

Simulator_User_Group
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== List of Speakers ==
Adamburp Adamczyk	Andrew Linden 	Baker Linden
catalina Gearbox 	Ima Mechanique 	Jenna Felton
Jonathan Yap 	Kennylex Luckless 	Lucia Nightfire
MartinRJ Fayray 	Mona Eberhardt 	Nalates Urriah
Rex Cronon 	Simon Linden 	Siwo
Skills Hak 	TankMaster Finesmith	Yuzuru Jewell
== Transcript ==
[12:10] Simon Linden: I don't see anything, Jonathan ... but you can ask :)
[12:10] Rex Cronon: that function could have bad consequences if it has bugs in it:(
[12:10] MartinRJ Fayray: hello Andrew!
[12:10] Andrew Linden: hello
[12:10] Rex Cronon: hi andrew
[12:10] Kennylex Luckless: Rawr! >:o
[12:10] Yuzuru Jewell: Hello, Andrew.
[12:10] Jonathan Yap: Hey Andrew, I was just asking for a status update on the default permissions cap work you took on
[12:11] Andrew Linden: Jonathan, I did poke around with that a bit last week.
[12:11] Mona Eberhardt: Hi Andrew
[12:11] Andrew Linden: I didn't complete it, but found an existing cap that already handles some "Agent Preferences" stuff
[12:11] Siwo: aren't these permissions already in debug settings? Like NextOwnerCopy and stuff...
[12:11] Andrew Linden: however I don't believe the viewer is actually using that cap
[12:12] Jonathan Yap: I just need to know how to proceed with the viewer changes
[12:12] Andrew Linden: I believe we did some coalescing of caps on the server-side when we were working on the pathfinding stuff
[12:13] Andrew Linden: and some of that coalescing work is unfinished (or perhaps just unused on the viewer-side)
[12:13] Jonathan Yap: Siwo: those debug settings might become obsolete, I forget what I did in that area
[12:13] catalina Gearbox: may I share my idea
[12:13] Andrew Linden: I mention it because I think I would like to add the default object creation permissions to that existing cap... even if it isn't being used, and then expose it as whatever cap you want to call it from... if that makes sense.
[12:14] Jonathan Yap: sure, I just need to know the exact details of how we are going to proceed
[12:14] Jonathan Yap: I'll await your email
[12:14] Jonathan Yap: Thanks!
[12:14] Andrew Linden: That is... I'm going to try to add the new settings in the right place, in case anyone ever wants to use the right cap for all preferences, but also expose them to a custom cap.
[12:14] Andrew Linden: Yup. The short answer is: I started working on it but am not done.
[12:15] Simon Linden: go ahead, catalina
[12:15] Jonathan Yap: Oz was hoping to toss a bunch of viewer changes to QA next week, as they don't have thanksgiving
[12:15] Andrew Linden: Ah... I don't think I'll be done before then, but if I am I'll alert you and Oz.
[12:15] Jonathan Yap: kk
[12:15] Jonathan Yap: What is your idea catalina?
[12:16] catalina Gearbox: well a dew weeks ago I was looking at the avatar window and I was thinking what a wasted opportunity, why not let people put there own outfits in something like that (one that doesn't take off all the clothes and one where you can put folders in folder and people will upload thee own pictures to put in that window, now I knwo your going to say there is the outfits folder but you can't realy see what those outfits are and some people have hundreds if not thousands of outfits so you get more revenue for tweaking something you already have implemented and maybe a little rlv coding on the backend;3
[12:16] catalina Gearbox: few weeks*
[12:17] Ima Mechanique: wrong place for that suggesyion. You'd be better of presenting that to the Open Source User group
[12:17] catalina Gearbox: oh ok
[12:17] Simon Linden: That does sound like mostly a viewer thing ... which exact window were you thinking about?
[12:17] Andrew Linden: So the idea is an outfit preview when browsing outfits in the inventory, via the avatar customization window, right?
[12:17] Ima Mechanique: this is about the server, OSUG handles Viewer stuff from the public
[12:17] Nalates Urriah: Or just add it as a feature request in the JIRA...
[12:18] catalina Gearbox: the avatar window
[12:18] Mona Eberhardt: As for RLV coding, this is an idea for TPVs, because the official viewer doesn't have this API built-in.
[12:18] Simon Linden: you mean the choose-an-av window, right?
[12:18] Jonathan Yap: When you save an outfit you could have an option to take a snapshot and put it in with the saved outfit
[12:19] Kennylex Luckless: Is there any group for land/management and usability questions and suggestions or is that only done via tickets??
[12:19] catalina Gearbox: yes simon
[12:19] Nalates Urriah: We might see some RLV like stuff added into the viewer after Experience Tools are out.
[12:19] Andrew Linden: What about outfits you've purchased but have not worn yet Jonathan?
[12:19] Simon Linden: All the user groups are listed here : http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:User_Groups
[12:19] Jonathan Yap: Then there would not yet be a snapshot, hmmmzzz
[12:20] Mona Eberhardt: That'd be interesting to see, Nal. Any guesses as to what they might add?
[12:20] Nalates Urriah: We wouldn't have an outfit until we had made one. otherwise it is just clothes in invenotry.
[12:21] Andrew Linden: Kennylex, this is probably the right place to talk about server-side features for land/region/estates.
[12:21] Simon Linden: It certainly would be nice to have a picture associated with an outfit and then be able to flip through them to pick
[12:21] Nalates Urriah: Mona, Oz has talked about it. There are something he thinks would be good. I've forgetten which features he liked.
[12:21] Mona Eberhardt nods
[12:21] Kennylex Luckless: There is some problems with inactive lifetime members and land, there would be great if could get hold of inactive land like it is in Luskwood and Minna
[12:22] Jonathan Yap: For peole with a lot of outfits having an image stored with them would be helpful
[12:23] Rex Cronon: it would also be helpfull if we had an image associated with linked objects in our inventory:)
[12:23] Siwo: I've got many outfits too... I've learned to use wise names for them :)
[12:23] Mona Eberhardt: Ohai Baker.
[12:23] Kennylex Luckless: Hia Baker
[12:23] Jenna Felton: yes, and the creator of the outfit you buy on marketlace could put the outfit image into the folder and call it somehow appropiate. The rest could the viewer do displaying that poster before you put the outfit on
[12:23] Andrew Linden: I see Kennelex. Unfortunately that is not within our domain here. Land and estate policy are not things that we work on.
[12:23] Rex Cronon: i have quite a few "objects" that are no longer just objects and i have to rez each one to see what it is
[12:23] Yuzuru Jewell: Hello, Baker.
[12:24] Baker Linden: Hey everyone!
[12:24] Mona Eberhardt tries to keep her outfit number in check. If it's never used, it's bye-bye.
[12:24] Rex Cronon: hi baker
[12:24] TankMaster Finesmith: hi
[12:24] Jenna Felton: hello Baker and Tankmaster
[12:24] Adamburp Adamczyk: Simon, there is a ticket option for that what kenny asks
[12:24] Adamburp Adamczyk: I've used it many a time, will im kenny if he likes
[12:25] Simon Linden: Please do, Adam .... I think you guys know more about fixing those cases than I do
[12:25] Adamburp Adamczyk: many a time bugging them about land :)
[12:25] Nalates Urriah: It would be nice to have a fast render image in outfits. The images that come with clothes often take a long time to render. Some times it is faster to put the item on than wait for the picture of it. A composite pic of the outfit as made mix and match would be great.
[12:26] Kennylex Luckless: It just had been great if there was some land rules for inactive users like land where owner not has log in within 3 month get auto return to 1 min automatically to stop on going griefs.
[12:26] Kennylex Luckless: In Minna griefer objects can stay several month or more
[12:27] Simon Linden: are they on public land, Kenny?
[12:27] Lucia Nightfire: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-4153
[12:27] Kennylex Luckless: No, private land owned by users that never has log in under several years.
[12:28] Kennylex Luckless: Life time users that no longer use SL.
[12:29] Simon Linden: right ... I don't know the details on land policy, but there's some effort to clean up land that's not being paid for
[12:29] Andrew Linden: Ah I see. Hrm... anti-grief is something that we work on, so maybe we could make a change there.
[12:29] Lucia Nightfire: with the change in autoreturn time inheriting, the only problem left is 0 return time parcels
[12:29] Simon Linden: If they're paying for it ... it's theirs to do as they see fit, under the usual TOS limits
[12:30] Adamburp Adamczyk: Simon, I will speak up about the land issue. as logn as the ticket is filed corerctly, Guy, or Michael, or Dee will reply pretty quickly
[12:30] Adamburp Adamczyk: about land permissions, or land queries
[12:30] Simon Linden: but it sounds like a policy or enforcement issue ... perhaps there is some tech change that could help out
[12:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[12:30] Rex Cronon: btw if there is time can we talk about the differences between the "interesting" viewer and regular viewer regarding cache?
[12:31] Andrew Linden: Rex, I can answer most questions about the "interesting" viewer cache.
[12:31] Rex Cronon: ok. what does the interesting viewer save to cache?
[12:32] TankMaster Finesmith: considering you did most of the changes, i hoe so :p
[12:32] Rex Cronon: i mean what does differently than the current viewer
[12:32] Kennylex Luckless: But the problem is that grief that stuck in those areas affect a sim. One solution is that users do fill the sim with unscripted objects
[12:33] Andrew Linden: The main difference is that the cache files that the interesting viewer makes for each region will tend to be larger
[12:33] MartinRJ Fayray: I'd rather have more support-staff cleaning up spamming objects that were reported through ARs and the support-homepage, than a change in policy
[12:33] Jonathan Yap: I think Andrew is talking about the Object cache, not a texture cache
[12:33] Andrew Linden: Yes, I'm talking about the files in the objectcache directory, not the texturecache.
[12:34] MartinRJ Fayray: I reported a griefer-cube in my land on mainland through supporttickets and ARs, and the cubes were still there *months* after
[12:34] Rex Cronon: so now we different types of cache?
[12:34] Adamburp Adamczyk: do like i do
[12:34] Jonathan Yap: There have always been different cache types
[12:34] Adamburp Adamczyk: when you AR something/someone, email rod linden with the AR number
[12:34] TankMaster Finesmith: there always has been, rex
[12:34] Rex Cronon: i mean new ones
[12:34] Jonathan Yap: Remember a while ago there was a bug in the name of the object cache, so it was never being used?
[12:34] Andrew Linden: On windows there is a directory somewhere around C://User/$YOURNAME/AppData/Local/SecondLife/objectcache
[12:35] MartinRJ Fayray: ty Adamburp
[12:35] Andrew Linden: inside of that dir are files with names like objects_XXX_YYY.slc
[12:35] Andrew Linden: those contain info about the geometry and location of the "cacheable" objects in the region
[12:36] Andrew Linden: if you examine those files after visiting a region with an old viewer you'll tend to see smaller file sizes
[12:36] MartinRJ Fayray: I see problems with the sculpt-cache in Interesting RC, Andrew.
[12:36] Adamburp Adamczyk: if we all do that, Rod would soon ge the message (/me hold banners up WE WANT YOSHI)
[12:36] MartinRJ Fayray: Sculpties very close to my avatar and camera tend to take a very long time to rez
[12:36] MartinRJ Fayray: sometimes they never rez
[12:36] Ima Mechanique: what are the XXX_YYY representing? Coordinates?
[12:36] MartinRJ Fayray: (I talk about non-worn objects)
[12:37] TankMaster Finesmith: sculpts should have never happened :p
[12:37] Andrew Linden: slow to load sculpties may veryt well be a bug in the interesting viewer
[12:37] Andrew Linden: however sculpty mesh data is communicated via textures
[12:37] MartinRJ Fayray nods
[12:37] Andrew Linden: so it would be a problem in the texture download or texturecache system
[12:38] Andrew Linden: dunno which
[12:38] Rex Cronon: ok. where is that folder in winxp?
[12:38] Skills Hak: sup
[12:38] Andrew Linden: MartinRJ, the XXX_YYY pair indicate the "grid location" of the region
[12:38] Andrew Linden: they are interger values that indicate how many regions East and North of some 0,0 point in the world
[12:39] Kennylex Luckless: LL should make a Sculpt to Mesh converter so folk can save their sculpt textures and convert them to mesh
[12:39] Andrew Linden: but there is no region at 0,0... for reference I think DaBoom is at 1000,1000
[12:39] Skills Hak: yep
[12:39] Jonathan Yap: Is DaBoom region #1 ?
[12:39] Jenna Felton nods to Andrew
[12:40] Rex Cronon: u can already convert meshes to .obj and from that u should be able to convert to mesh
[12:40] Jenna Felton: for my information it was the first sim
[12:40] Rex Cronon: convert sculpties*
[12:40] Andrew Linden: Yes, Da Boom was one of the first regions.
[12:40] Kennylex Luckless: Natoma has sculpture pointing out center of old SL.
[12:40] Jenna Felton: and "Da Boom" sounds like a explosion, and our World started once with a big bang. so i am sure DaBoom is the firt sim
[12:41] Jenna Felton: first*
[12:41] Kennylex Luckless: DeBoom is a region I think
[12:41] Andrew Linden: "Da Boom" is a mispelling of an alley in San Francisco called "De Boom"
[12:41] Jenna Felton: ah
[12:41] TankMaster Finesmith: sim != region
[12:42] Andrew Linden: as I recall
[12:42] Kennylex Luckless: May be correct
[12:42] Jenna Felton: an other idea. also a funny one
[12:43] Andrew Linden: BTW, the interesting viewer communicates that it can handle large cache files by setting a bit in the flags field of the RegionHandshakeReply message.
[12:43] Andrew Linden: The bit basically means "Yes, please send me all cacheable data for the region."
[12:44] TankMaster Finesmith: techwolf will like that :p
[12:44] Andrew Linden: However it also implies that the viewer is smart enough to know how to cull its own objects from the cache file
[12:44] Skills Hak: prokofy claims that it is able to copy scripted objects
[12:44] Skills Hak: made me giggle
[12:44] Jonathan Yap: Does the server send data for objects outside draw distance?
[12:44] Andrew Linden: and does not rely in the serer to send a KillObject message for cacheable stuff that goes out of view.
[12:45] MartinRJ Fayray: it can copy scripted objects?
[12:45] Skills Hak: it caches them, not the scripts though obviously
[12:45] Rex Cronon: i think prokofy is trying to understand how it works
[12:45] Andrew Linden: The interesting viewer does not cache scripts.
[12:45] .:EF:. Lickity Split Tongue: Hello, Avatar!
[12:46] Andrew Linden: However, it does cache scripted object geometry data in the cache...
[12:46] Ima Mechanique: Really Rex, that'd be a first, Prok usually skips understanding and moves straight to rant
[12:46] Andrew Linden: it used to be that we considered most scripted objects ad non-cacheable
[12:46] Andrew Linden: er... as non-cacheable
[12:46] MartinRJ Fayray: I always use a very small cache size (64MB) - and have the cache folder on an extra SSD drive, because my viewer always got very very slow at some point, when my viewer cache grew too big. With the new Interesting RC viewer will it be save to have a bigger cache size, Andrew?
[12:46] MartinRJ Fayray: Or even better to have a large cache?
[12:46] Andrew Linden: so the server would not send most scripted objects in cacheable form
[12:46] Andrew Linden: however, that changed several months ago
[12:47] Andrew Linden: and the server now sends any static object that hasn't changed position or appearance in the last two minutes as cacheable
[12:47] Andrew Linden: even to regular viewers
[12:48] Andrew Linden: MartinRJ... what operating system are you using?
[12:48] Skills Hak: i remember there has been a bug in the viewer that caused it to never actually *use* the object cache
[12:48] MartinRJ Fayray: Windows 8.1 64bit
[12:48] Skills Hak: funny
[12:48] Andrew Linden: MartinRJ, I don't know why your viewer would slow down like that.
[12:49] Andrew Linden: The "cache size" setting in the viewer preferences covers not only objectcache (I believe) but also texturecache
[12:49] MartinRJ Fayray: I think it excludes inventory cache. Because the folder is always bigger than what I've set as limit (64MB)
[12:50] Nalates Urriah: Over a year ago the cache changed to an indexed cache. It is no longer so dependent on OS file access to figure out file ages. I see very little performance loss from large cache.
[12:50] Rex Cronon: i don't seem to have folder in the cache only for objects. in the cache i have only three folders http, https and prepared. is interesting viewer using different folders?
[12:50] MartinRJ Fayray: you're looking in the wrong directory, Rex
[12:50] MartinRJ Fayray: that's the browser cache
[12:50] Andrew Linden: no the interesting viewer uses the same folders. yeah I was going to say... sounds like a browser cache
[12:51] MartinRJ Fayray: the object and texture cache has the folders "objectcache" and "texturecache"
[12:51] TankMaster Finesmith: sound cache ignores preferences, not sure what else
[12:51] MartinRJ Fayray: and a lot of .dsf and other files
[12:51] Skills Hak: inv cache is stored independently too
[12:51] Rex Cronon: i can't find the object cache folder:(
[12:51] Andrew Linden: MartinRJ, if your performance really does degrade with large cache then... I wonder if moving to a faster hard drive would help you.
[12:51] Skills Hak: it's a file
[12:51] MartinRJ Fayray: look for the folder path in preferences
[12:52] Rex Cronon: oh. its a file? not a folder
[12:52] MartinRJ Fayray: I already have a fast ssd dedicated only for cache
[12:52] TankMaster Finesmith: its in the normal cache folder
[12:52] Skills Hak: i'm using an 8gig ramdisk for cache so it doesn't stress my ssd as much
[12:52] Siwo: I wonder... will this ever become real? http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LSL3
[12:53] Rex Cronon: where is the cache folder?
[12:53] Andrew Linden: MartinRJ, what viewer metric suffers for large cache in your experience? Scene load? viewer FPS? something else?
[12:53] MartinRJ Fayray: IM, Rex
[12:53] MartinRJ Fayray: viewer fps
[12:53] Andrew Linden: You can find the cache folder by looking at Preferences --> Advanced Tab
[12:54] Adamburp Adamczyk: /in huis
[12:54] Adamburp Adamczyk: *✰* UNDERPANTS! *✰*
[12:54] Andrew Linden: Huh MartinRJ, that sounds odd, but if it is real then we should be able to duplicate it in the lab.
[12:54] Ima Mechanique: Siwo, very unlikely. Hopefully the move to C# would happen, but chances of that are pretty minimal currently
[12:54] TankMaster Finesmith: or pref - network and cache, depending on your viewer
[12:54] Yuzuru Jewell: Can I place chash location at RAM DISK?
[12:55] Siwo: :/
[12:55] MartinRJ Fayray: but viewer fps was also depending on scene load for me, always
[12:55] MartinRJ Fayray: so it could be scene load-related lag
[12:55] Skills Hak: i miss babbage
[12:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[12:55] Ima Mechanique: me too skillz
[12:55] TankMaster Finesmith: you can place the cache folder to any exsisting folder you want
[12:55] MartinRJ Fayray: (btw. that's much better with the interesting RC - scene load does not affect my viewer fps at all anymore)
[12:55] Simon Linden: Yuzuru - you should be able to point it to any disk device
[12:56] Andrew Linden: I'm not sure what you mean MartinRJ. You're saying that during scene load your FPS is faster in the "interesting" viewer?
[12:56] MartinRJ Fayray: yes
[12:56] Nalates Urriah: When using a ram disk or any transient storage, you need to save the cache when powering down. Reload it on power up. Otherwise you have to waith for all the stuff to download each login.
[12:56] MartinRJ Fayray: but it gets slower after teleporting, up to a point where I need to relog.
[12:56] Yuzuru Jewell: Thank you, Simon. I will try it.
[12:57] Rex Cronon: found it:)
[12:57] Andrew Linden: Ok, sounds like the interesting viewer will need some more work.
[12:58] Rex Cronon: haha. i can't believe i was looking in the wrong place:)
[12:58] Lucia Nightfire: Simon are you going to be looking into deterrents for taht bomb problem soon. We've had it used every day for the week, 3 times today alone after 3 restarts in WT.
[12:59] Lucia Nightfire: *last
[12:59] Lucia Nightfire: all by differnt agents too, heh
[12:59] TankMaster Finesmith: WT exists to be griffed
[12:59] Simon Linden: I've been looking at it, Lucy. It's not one thing, unfortunately, but a collection of attacks
[13:00] Rex Cronon: lucy there is something else working there. people keep sim full using objects with high LI and low link nr, in order to keep sim from crashing:(
[13:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[13:00] Lucia Nightfire: thats soemthing else Rex, lol
[13:01] Lucia Nightfire: that won't stop the bomb problem
[13:01] Rex Cronon: tankmaster. imo u r wrong about that:)
[13:01] Lucia Nightfire: it doesn't matter if there are any available prims or not
[13:02] Rex Cronon: well. when is not one is the other, and sometimes there r both going on:(
[13:02] Lucia Nightfire: the filling is to block normal laggers and spam
[13:03] Kennylex Luckless: take care and have fun, I has to run.
[13:03] Rex Cronon: tc
[13:03] Mona Eberhardt: Take care, Kenny.
[13:03] Andrew Linden: Cheers.
[13:03] Rex Cronon: too sad that it renders the sim useless:(
[13:04] MartinRJ Fayray: Take care everyone
[13:04] Lucia Nightfire: the bomb ruins the sim for hours
[13:04] Simon Linden: I have to go as well ... thanks for coming and the good chat this week
[13:04] Ima Mechanique: gotta run too, cloning a new VR repo finally finished. Nearly 90 minutes, it's getting rediculous ;-)
[13:04] Lucia Nightfire: only takes one second to activate it
[13:04] MartinRJ Fayray: bye Simon!
[13:04] Rex Cronon: tc martin
[13:04] TankMaster Finesmith: tc everyone, have a good week
[13:04] Rex Cronon: tc simon
[13:04] Rex Cronon: tc tankmaster
[13:04] Yuzuru Jewell: Thank you, Simon.
[13:04] Rex Cronon: tc all those leaving
[13:04] Mona Eberhardt: Have a good week, Simon.
[13:04] Nalates Urriah: Thx Lindens
[13:04] Yuzuru Jewell: Thank you, Rex.
[13:04] Mona Eberhardt: Thanks, Lindens.
[13:05] Yuzuru Jewell: Thank you, Andrew.
[13:05] Jonathan Yap: Thank you everyone
[13:05] Jenna Felton: have a good week everybody and thank You for the meeting Lindens and all
[13:05] Yuzuru Jewell: Baker, ara you OK?
[13:05] Rex Cronon: u r welcome yuzuru:)
Simulator_User_Group
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