Viewer Evolution User Group/Archive/2011-03-09

08:00 	Cummere Mayo  	oz... you should try out this dev build of firestorm
  	Tomkin Euler  	what's your readc Cummere?
  	Oz Linden  	Hi everyone
  	FERRET  	hiya
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	good morning
  	Tomkin Euler  	doesn't crash like the last one for me..
08:01 	Twisted Laws  	Hi
  	Oz Linden  	I'm hoping to get some time to do TPV surfing tomorrow, in fact
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	hiya tech ㋡
  	Cummere Mayo  	the ability to lose the sidebar, the tabs instead of accordians.... this has some nice features we should ask them for
  	  	tomkin i can still crash it regularly, but they are getting there
08:02 	  	media filter is sooo nice though
  	  	hints to oz
  	Wolfpup  	hey oz
  	Techwolf Lupindo  	HI all
  	Cummere Mayo  	meeeeeeeeee deeeeeee ahhhhhhhh filllllllllllllll terrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
08:03 	Techwolf Lupindo  	LOL
  	Oz Linden  	Let's do the item someone put on the agenda first (adding more now is fine, but add at the end)
  	  	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/svc-2820?
  	JIRA-helper  	SVC-2820 Allow group IMs to be muted
  	Jonathan  	That was my item; it is semi-misfiled and should be considered a vwr (see final comments)
08:04 	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	that would be nice...
  	Jonathan  	I expanded this new feature request to encompass muting all aspects of 1 group
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	mute the MM groups, but still get the notices
  	Techwolf Lupindo  	I orinally though when closing a group IM that it was sienced for 30 minutes. With the viewer getting more stable, that closing a group sience it forever is going to be somewhat a problem. I like to have a delay timer of some sort.
  	Oz Linden  	As you've heard, there is a big rewrite of group chat in progress
08:05 	Jonathan  	Is muting a group part of that effort?
  	Oz Linden  	As a part of that, the team doing it is now doing a broader look at what other related changes should be made.
  	  	I'll point this one out to them (I know they have something very much like it on thier list)
08:06 	Jonathan  	I'd consider this work about 95%% done; there might be a minor issue with how muting voice works, plus a menu tweak
  	Techwolf Lupindo  	What is the best place to submitte feedback for group chat related stuff?
08:07 	Jonathan  	Even if it is not taken up it was a good programming exercise
  	Cummere Mayo  	gez was supposedly gonna have a usergroup for us
  	Oz Linden  	Gez is planning to open a new user group for chat-related issues soon
  	  	There'll be a blog post or something I'm sure
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	From what I can gather, they're running a little behind. The xmpp project viewer is showing up, but they haven't started with groups or active testing yet
  	Oz Linden  	I have not heard any dates on that yet
08:08 	TriloByte Zanzibar  	Oz, FJ had made the hard commitment to having it on the main grid by March 31
  	Jonathan  	The xmpp people ran into a little technical issue--they were using aditi but needed their own grid
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	I expect that will slip by a couple weeks
08:09 	Oz Linden  	what can I tell you ...
  	Jonathan  	If you want better news about xmpp go to the Beta UG with Oskar
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	yeah, I'm hoping to be able to make their meeting tomorrow
  	Cummere Mayo  	anyways one way or another we know these features are likely coming right oz?
08:10 	Oz Linden  	which, the chat stuff... yes, many group chat features are coming
  	  	I think I'll avoid putting any dates after my name into the chat archive, though
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	understandable :)
  	FERRET  	yerp nufin like watching a deadline fly by
  	Techwolf Lupindo  	:-)
  	Cummere Mayo  	if they dont get the xmpp stuff ready to go, it sounds like we have a patch alnost ready though :)
  	Jonathan  	The xmpp viewer code is public for anyone who is interested
08:11 	Oz Linden  	next topic... media filter
  	Wolfpup  	since we are on the subject of chat is anying one onlast nights build of Viewer Development?
08:12 	Cummere Mayo  	nope wolfpup....
  	Twisted Laws  	i am up to date with changes from last night...
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	yes
  	Cummere Mayo  	with all the crap going on i switched to one with a media filter
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	well, 223190
  	Oz Linden  	I have seen the contribution on this, but not yet had time to look closely at it or to raise the question of whether or not we can take it. It is, however, on my list.
  	Wolfpup  	those of you that are have you noticed the changes to the bottom bar?
  	Twisted Laws  	yes
  	Cummere Mayo  	oz, other departments already kinda committed us to taking it
08:13 	TriloByte Zanzibar  	yeah, I like it
  	Oz Linden  	send me mail privately Cummere with who that would have been
08:14 	  	I personally don't object to it
  	Joke Bubble  	hi
  	Techwolf Lupindo  	Is there a master jira on it?
08:15 	Oz Linden  	the change to remove the 'hide url' checkboxes has been integrated and passed QA, so it will be in the next regular viewer release.
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	is it removing both audio and media?
08:16 	Oz Linden  	it unmasks all parcel media urls, regardless of what type they are
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	ok
08:17 	Cummere Mayo  	there is but tonya or jessica know it... I just know simone posted the orriginal patch and tonya tweaked it
  	  	im looking for it now though
  	Oz Linden  	Tonya posted it somewhere (or said she would)... like I said, I've been tied up and have not looked for details
  	Techwolf Lupindo  	One exploit was closed. But I need to follow up on with LL.
08:19 	Joke Bubble  	mmm i have a question
  	Oz Linden  	on media urls, joke? if not, hold it please
  	Joke Bubble  	not about it sorry . ok im waiting .)
08:20 	Oz Linden  	next agenda item is #3 - Things to ask Firestorm for...
  	Jonathan  	add it to the agenda
  	Oz Linden  	kind of a broad topic
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	agenda's here - https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_Evolution_User_Group
  	Techwolf Lupindo  	Ah, I think it asking for what LL can get from firestorm for there viewer.
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	ill be submitting some translations im putting into firestrom to LL
08:21 	Cummere Mayo  	yes tech
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	i set up my bitbucket account last night, havent pushed changes to it yet though
  	Oz Linden  	Can we be more specific?
  	Cummere Mayo  	i really want to see the media filter, end of accordians, ability kill the sidebar, and the chat bar on the floater
08:22 	  	aside from the media filter those all fix long running complaints with v2
  	Oz Linden  	we talked about chat on the floater enough last week... I did finally get around to creating a jira issue on that this morning
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	I think the optional ability to turn off the sidebar (just using bottom buttons) would make a lot of people happy
  	Oz Linden  	the sidebar too has been beaten almost to death, but I do like some of what FS has done there, and plan to bring that up
08:23 	Wolfpup  	Oz there are several Jiars concerning putting the chat history panel in the conversatins floater
  	Cummere Mayo  	they did that too
  	Oz Linden  	yes, but I don't want to discuss chat floaters today - at all
  	Techwolf Lupindo  	Oz, I think we need to beat it to death. ;-)
  	Cummere Mayo  	its kinda nice
  	  	one last thing
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	I agree Oz. Btw, here's a jira on making sidebar an option - https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-18471
  	JIRA-helper  	VWR-18471 Optional sidebar
08:24 	Wolfpup  	yes the side bar is nice but could use some more and better featurs
  	Cummere Mayo  	the radar
  	Oz Linden  	Thank you Trilobyte
  	  	have not looked a the radar
  	Techwolf Lupindo  	Avatar List is bing worked on for firestorm. There is some alpha in there now.
  	  	Avatar List is bing worked on for firestorm. There is some alpha code in there now.
08:25 	Cummere Mayo  	meh ill have to go through slu forum posts (all nearly 11500) for the jira number for the filter ... im not finding it
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	its basic right now, just displays more info on people listed in the nerby tab of the people sidebar
  	Wolfpup  	it would be nice if the nearby map was taler
  	Cummere Mayo  	its simlar to our nearby chat pre mini-map, but with age how long weve seen them and range
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	Or resizable, Wolf. I'd like taller too, but I saw a couple posts on the community site from ppl with small screen laptops who think it's too big
08:26 	Cummere Mayo  	personally i think we could get by with just the range
  	Twisted Laws  	my radar that comes from is using layout-stack and layout-panels, thus its resizable Wolfpup
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	Lee has range in the latest builds of Kirstens too I think
  	Oz Linden  	what use is having range?
  	Wolfpup  	do you have to edit the xml for this?
  	Cummere Mayo  	oz I cannot believe your asking that
  	  	*sighs*
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	to know how far someone is (easier to see if they are in chat range, etc)
  	Jonathan  	I use range all the time
08:27 	Oz Linden  	I just don't know... teach me
  	Wolfpup  	range sows you how far away the are from you
  	Twisted Laws  	i change the range very often in here... depends on what a person is doing.
  	Cummere Mayo  	determinining placement of stuff, if people are in chat or shout range
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	Great when socializing (clubs/dances) or when tending to a busy store full of customers
  	Twisted Laws  	riding trains, you want a shorter draw distance, in a sandbox you want longer draw distance
  	Jonathan  	Let's say I have arrived in the wrong place -- I can see how far away the group I am trying to find is and in what direction
  	Cummere Mayo  	that too
  	FERRET  	is handy to know if your walking towards or away from someone for starters
08:28 	Oz Linden  	doesn't highlighting them on the minimap (which we already have) effectively do most of that?
  	FERRET  	knowlege is ability oz i woulda thought u knew that :P
  	Cummere Mayo  	if theres lots of avatars, minimap, even the one in the nearby pannel get overloaded
  	  	no oz
  	Tomkin Euler  	gives feedback on which zoom range you're on.. far, or medium for instance..
  	Cummere Mayo  	some but not near enough
  	Oz Linden  	yes, Ferret, but cluttering the display also confuses new users
  	Jonathan  	The minimap might be at a closer scale...and we do not all have a mouse wheel to adjust it
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	oh cant build here, dang
08:29 	Cummere Mayo  	it really doesnt clutter it to add range
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	that's worked fairly well, though depending on zoom it's tough to know how far away the dot is
  	Cummere Mayo  	and minimap just doesnt give a numeric value. and its hard to tell if someone is 85 meters away or 105 meters away
08:30 	FERRET  	oh idea...instead of disposing of the sidebar totally why not shrink it to a block next to the talk button or something
  	Tomkin Euler  	other visual cue to zoom range? different color tone on background?
  	Jonathan  	You could have range rings on the mini-map
  	  	(optional)
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	look at me, getting better at searching the jira.. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-18078
  	JIRA-helper  	VWR-18078 Add distance information to nearby avatar list
  	Oz Linden  	I was just going to ask that Jonathan...
  	Techwolf Lupindo  	A range bar/sliders can give a clue as to zoom level. So one can easly tell the differnce if that dot is close by or very far away.
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n227/tank_master/Second%%20Life/aniuperror.png thats what the nearby tab looks like currently
08:31 	  	agg
  	Techwolf Lupindo  	A range bar/sliders can give a visule clue as to zoom level. So one can easly tell the differnce if that dot is close by or very far away.
  	Oz Linden  	would chat and shout range rings on the map be useful?
  	TheBlack Box  	the whole tab could have *fill in anything that radar-HUDs have*
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n227/tank_master/Second%%20Life/nearby.png
  	Cummere Mayo  	yes but not as useful as adding a range colum
  	Jonathan  	I think you'd want something additional between shout and chat range -- use of colors would help here
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	there
08:32 	Techwolf Lupindo  	Oz, good idea. That can server both visulau clue to zoom and convey information about chat range.
  	Oz Linden  	numbers don't help new users ... they don't know what they mean, really
  	Joke Bubble  	but they will learn
  	Cummere Mayo  	yould be surprised
08:33 	Joke Bubble  	second life is already so strange for newbies
  	  	:)
  	FERRET  	which is why we scale closest to the top of the list :)
  	Twisted Laws  	would be nice imho to use highlighting in avatar_list to indicate chat range...
  	Cummere Mayo  	its not common but i do get asked how can you tell how far away someone is by new people
  	Twisted Laws  	subdued if out of chat range, bright if in chat range
  	Wolfpup  	if you had them colored and a key char at the bottom it wout be easy that way
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	"how far away is he?" "he's blue" seems like an odd answer
08:34 	Wolfpup  	twisted it would need three levels
  	Techwolf Lupindo  	Twisted, it allready does that in Phoenix, the distance number go from black to grey for chat range.
  	Oz Linden  	using color has accessibility issues too
  	Twisted Laws  	i have a patch that can show range on hover in avatar_lists...
  	  	that way there is no increased lag
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	showing on hover would be great
  	Oz Linden  	do existing radars account for the vertical distance too?
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	+1 for that, Twisted
  	Wolfpup  	then mabey a seperation marker
  	Techwolf Lupindo  	Oz, yes.
  	FERRET  	yeh but their way off
08:35 	Cummere Mayo  	yes
  	Techwolf Lupindo  	But there is the 1024 bug.
  	Jonathan  	Oz, they show altitude unless you are over a certain height, then there can be issues
  	Oz Linden  	what good is a number that's not correct?
  	FERRET  	it works if your up high measing down tho
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	the one in kirstensviewer does, but I think it becomes ineffective beyond a fairly short range
  	FERRET  	measuring even
  	Cummere Mayo  	they are messed up if you go above 1024 meters but thats a issue with the server thats being fixed
  	Techwolf Lupindo  	Phoenix uses a bridge LSL scipt to get the correct nuimbers.
08:36 	TheBlack Box  	while we are speaking about radar .... the UUID-addressable SL-map-textures .... can we count on its ongoing existance
  	  	?
  	Twisted Laws  	btw... STORM-954 .. the wrong code got put in viewer-development (was the first patch, not the second)
  	JIRA-helper  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-954
STORM-954 SL-viewer 2.0 No nearby people when over approximately 1000 meters
  	Oz Linden  	let's put that on the end of the Agenda, please BlackBox
  	TheBlack Box  	kk
08:37 	Oz Linden  	Twisted - please reopen the issue and put in a correct hg repo pointer to fix it
  	Twisted Laws  	https://codereview.secondlife.com/r/132/
  	Oz Linden  	I'll make a point to look at radar in TPVs before our next meeting, and we can discuss that again
08:38 	Cummere Mayo  	cool ty oz
  	Oz Linden  	#4 Windlight status
  	  	which status are we talking about?
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	yeah, Q mentioned some code was coming in last week
  	Jonathan  	Oz, these build in radars save server load as they use data already sent to the viewer
  	Oz Linden  	(people should put their names on agenda items, I think)
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	the ability to set estate/parcel level windlight
  	Cummere Mayo  	chuckles and smacks whoever split up her three topics lol
  	FERRET  	shader code hopefully
08:39 	TriloByte Zanzibar  	(Sorry Oz, that was me)
  	Oz Linden  	Ah... Estate settings
  	  	There is some code that's partly working in an internal repo
  	  	I hope to get someone on finishing it up soon, but no dates
08:40 	  	currently, it reads settings from the server correctly, but changing them is not finished
08:41 	TriloByte Zanzibar  	k, thanks. that one has been the most asked-about item in the rp communities that I hear from
  	Oz Linden  	yes, I want that one too... wait 'til you see Hippotropolis once I can play with those :-)
08:42 	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	lol
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	hehe
  	Oz Linden  	#5 Plans for Snowstorm....
  	Cummere Mayo  	if you play with hippo can i play with denby? lol
  	Oz Linden  	Snowstorm still exists ...
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	its only region level though, right? not parcle level?
08:43 	Techwolf Lupindo  	There is windlight support in TPV, just need to add some code to the parcel discription. But hopefully LL windlight will be better. :-)
  	Oz Linden  	that's right, it's Region level (even though it is called Estate level)
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	ok
08:44 	Twisted Laws  	who is taking Q's place?
08:45 	Joke Bubble  	may i ask who is q ? o.o
  	Oz Linden  	For now, I'm running Snowstorm on my own
08:46 	FERRET  	actual snowstorm or V2?
  	Cummere Mayo  	q was a linden at LL for a long time, for a while he was in charge of snowstorm. he just recently left LL
  	Oz Linden  	I'm talking to my boss about how to evolve things... still not fully resolved, but so far I'm likeing how it's going
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	that's good to hear
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	good ㋡
08:47 	Techwolf Lupindo  	Good. I wish yoiu good luck on that fronter Oz.
  	Oz Linden  	I'll share the outcomes when they are really finished
  	Techwolf Lupindo  	:-)
  	Tomkin Euler  	Is there an internal, non-open viewer development, in addition to snowstorm development? <pardon my ignorance..>
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	yes, Tomkin, there are a few teams involved in viewer development
08:48 	Tomkin Euler  	o.. thanks..
  	Oz Linden  	The public viewer-development repo is the main integration repo for all viewer work, Tomkin
  	Cummere Mayo  	any hope that we will get some new lindens on the team full time? we're still half what we started with effectively
  	Oz Linden  	there are private forks for new work we're not ready to talk about yet
  	  	That is among the topics with my boss, Cummere
08:49 	FERRET  	bring out the mesh!
  	Cummere Mayo  	cool. if you need resi's to help make the case let us know
  	Oz Linden  	mesh is already public, just not yet integrated
  	  	ok... next topic - Joke Bubble has waited patiently
  	  	what was your question?
  	Joke Bubble  	i forgot.
  	Techwolf Lupindo  	:-)
  	Oz Linden  	oops
08:50 	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	doh
  	Liisa Runo  	map texture UUID's
  	Wolfpup  	lestat there are issues with trying to bring in mesh right now for one thing there is no open source for the decpm stuf
  	Joke Bubble  	i think it was silly thing sorry :/
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	TBB also had a question too, I believe
  	TheBlack Box  	map texture UUID's was mine :)
  	Oz Linden  	yes, about map images, I think?
08:51 	Joke Bubble  	nop i want ask about zoom range
  	  	:/
  	Wolfpup  	i have a 'sculpture' that shows about useing map uuid's
  	TheBlack Box  	some while ago there was talk about map-textures no longer being available via UUID ... cause the Viewer didnt use them anymore i think for its map ... but A LOT of SL content uses them
  	  	since then those textures remained available ... but without a final word about them
  	  	i think
  	Oz Linden  	the canonical reference for mapping is https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Map_API
08:52 	  	If you have a question not covered there, I can try to get an answer
08:53 	TheBlack Box  	Map API is for usage in websites right ?
  	  	i am talking about in-world content
  	  	Radar-systems for example ... HUDs and other
  	Oz Linden  	the map api provides urls... urls can be used in-world too
08:55 	TriloByte Zanzibar  	Oz, would you know who (or what team) to reach out to about map UUID's?
  	TheBlack Box  	i will read into it more ... but the question remains ... for old content that still uses those UUIDs
  	Oz Linden  	If you'd like, write me an email describing the usage you're concerned about, and I'll get someone to provide clarification of what you can expect.
  	Techwolf Lupindo  	urls in world need MOAP support to display. UUID are displayed on object without MOAP support.
08:56 	Oz Linden  	Well, then viewers better implement MOAP
  	Techwolf Lupindo  	Oz, the media filter.
  	TheBlack Box  	moap is a freakin security nightmare
  	Techwolf Lupindo  	enough said on that.
  	Oz Linden  	not if the urls are coming from Linden servers.
  	Liisa Runo  	all user friendly navigating systems for boats and planes use region maps on prim surfaces. And giant pile of other content use those too, i really hope they will stay. MOAP is not alternative to this with all the problems it have
08:57 	Wolfpup  	Oz that object i just sent you shows how map uuid's are used
  	Oz Linden  	Please use email as well
  	TheBlack Box  	and the question remains for old content ... switching to moap maps would need updating on the content ...
  	Techwolf Lupindo  	Why require webkit broswer just to display a textrue in world? (me shuts up for now.)
08:58 	Oz Linden  	I understand that there is a question, but not enough yet to get an answer, so send me that email spelling it all out carefully. That's all I can do now.
08:59 	  	Joke... you had a question about zoom?
  	Joke Bubble  	yes
  	TheBlack Box  	very specifically this UUID-question is a bit of a burden on many content-creators that would like to sell things using those UUID's .. and not many of them will appreciate a moap-based alternative really
  	Joke Bubble  	about zoom range
  	Wolfpup  	Oz if you rez that sculptuer i just sen you and look @ the script inside you will understand the usage of map image uuid's
  	TheBlack Box  	getting experienced SL-users to swithc to v2 viewer is still a lot of work to be done ;)
  	Oz Linden  	we're done w/ map images, folks
09:00 	  	what's your question about zoom range?
  	Joke Bubble  	its very short
  	Oz Linden  	the zoom range, or the question ?
  	  	hates pronouns
  	Joke Bubble  	zoom range:))
  	Tomkin Euler  	yes..
09:01 	  	yearns for a mouse wheel..
  	Wolfpup  	Joke i think zoom range depends on how your draw distance is set
  	Oz Linden  	sorry... I don't understand the question
  	FERRET  	imprudence...look in settings
  	Joke Bubble  	its same at viewer 2 too :/
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	i think he want to know if its possible to make it so the rang you can toom out to is farther
09:02 	Wolfpup  	greater draw distance = greater zoom range
  	Twisted Laws  	Joke, you may need to open Advanced menu, and turn on Disable Camera Constraints
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	a lot of TPVs have done this
  	Twisted Laws  	and turn off Limit Select Distance
09:03 	Joke Bubble  	thanks :)
  	Oz Linden  	ok... our time is up today... thanks for coming everyone
  	Cummere Mayo  	ty oz for hosing
  	  	so when is acceptable to start bringing pitchforks again?
09:04 	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	thx Oz
  	Cummere Mayo  	.me giggles
  	  	*hosting
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	appriciate the updates