Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2012.07.13

Simulator_User_Group
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== List of Speakers ==
Andrew Linden 	Ardy Lay
Ashiri Sands 	Baxter Aubin
Draconis Neurocam	Kallista Destiny
Kelly Linden 	Nalates Urriah
Rex Cronon 	Tankmaster Finesmith
== Transcript ==
[16:00] Meeter: Welcome to the Server User Group
[16:01] Nalates Urriah: Seems a little deserted. Did I miss a cancelation notice?
[16:01] Ardy Lay: Good question
[16:02] Nalates Urriah: I'd say... no cancelation on the wiki
[16:02] Ardy Lay: I hate hard disks
[16:02] Draconis Neurocam: i hate phones
[16:02] Ardy Lay: Just had a new 3TB drive fail after I got it loaded up.
[16:02] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
[16:02] Nalates Urriah: That would suck Ardy
[16:02] Ashiri Sands: Total fail?
[16:02] Andrew Linden: Hello.
[16:03] Nalates Urriah: Hey Andrew
[16:03] Ashiri Sands: hi Andrew
[16:03] Andrew Linden: Simon won't be able to make it today.
[16:03] Rex Cronon: hi andrew
[16:03] Rex Cronon: AFK...............................
[16:03] Rex Cronon: i need to go afk for a few minutes
[16:03] Ardy Lay: Is he chained to a computer with a busted hard drive? That would be my day.
[16:04] Ardy Lay: I live on thanks to a 120GB SSD
[16:04] Nalates Urriah: Which brand drive failed?
[16:04] Ardy Lay: Guess
[16:05] Andrew Linden: odd, my chat history doesn't show everybody's name in chat history
[16:05] Nalates Urriah: Maxtor
[16:05] Ardy Lay: Maxtor still exists?
[16:05] Kallista Destiny: Really
[16:05] Nalates Urriah: I haven't checked lately
[16:05] Andrew Linden: but the names show up when I close the chat history floater
[16:06] Ardy Lay: That's interesting
[16:06] Ardy Lay: Sometimes the names show up late and get displayed twice on a line when they do.
[16:06] Ashiri Sands: latest release viewer or beta?
[16:06] Andrew Linden: this isn't the latest...
[16:07] Andrew Linden: Second Life 3.3.3 (260300)
[16:07] Andrew Linden: on linux
[16:07] Ardy Lay: THey change from "Loading ..." to "Andrew LindenAndrew Linden:", for example.
[16:07] Andrew Linden: oh well, I'll ask someone for a copy of the transcripts if they never show up by the end of the hour
[16:08] Andrew Linden: Oh yeah, and Baker won't be coming. He's doing touristy stuff around San Francisco, I think.
[16:08] Kallista Destiny: well Friday the 13th is on a Friday this month
[16:09] Andrew Linden: as for news...
[16:09] Andrew Linden: I've just been looking into the intrestlist stuff still, trying to get more info
[16:10] Andrew Linden: in preparation for the big meeting where we'll try to decide on strategy and architecture design
[16:10] Andrew Linden: the only other thing I did of interest was look into some inventory corruption issues and how to help with that
[16:11] Kallista Destiny: Is that the inventory and folders ourside of inventory?
[16:11] Andrew Linden: one of the tools that used to be used for fixing inventory has some bugs in it
[16:11] Kallista Destiny: /e see Telly arrive and puts on her sunglasses
[16:12] Kelly Linden: Who is telly?
[16:12] Ardy Lay: I know a coupl of people that have some inventory items that have become the wrong type. That sort of thing? I know another whose inventory is only partially loading, suddenly.
[16:12] Rex Cronon: back
[16:12] Andrew Linden: not the perl tool that was used by some of our internal web pages
[16:12] Andrew Linden: so I'm going to try to fix that in my copious spare time
[16:12] Kallista Destiny: Ahhhhhh....
[16:13] Ardy Lay: THey would LOVE to get their inventories fixed up so they can use them again.
[16:13] Draconis Neurocam: you can't just replace the usage of perl with python, rather than redo the perl one?
[16:13] Andrew Linden: Unfortunately not Draconis, at least not without more overhaul than I can do on the side.
[16:13] Draconis Neurocam: ah
[16:14] Andrew Linden: In any case, I'll be looking for some examples of corrupted inventory that I can look at and test my fixes against
[16:14] Andrew Linden: of course, I'll be copying such inventories to the beta grid (aditi) first for test
[16:14] Ardy Lay: How yould you like those examples delivered?
[16:14] Andrew Linden: I just need to an account name and some sort of consent
[16:14] Andrew Linden: that is, an IM from the individual
[16:14] Ardy Lay: Have them IM you?
[16:15] Andrew Linden: yes
[16:15] Ardy Lay: Okay
[16:15] Andrew Linden: I've got a command line interface tool that actually works
[16:15] Rex Cronon: how can u find out if any of your inventory items r corrupted or not? u rezz them, one by one?
[16:15] Nalates Urriah: You are probably going to be picky and require consent come form the inventory owner... OTHERWISE I'll be happy to give my concent for THEIR inventory.:)
[16:16] Andrew Linden: so if anyone needs their inventory fixed immediately they can send me an IM (for the next week or so)
[16:16] Ardy Lay: Thanks Andrew.
[16:16] Andrew Linden: since I'm interested in looking at the types of inventory problems that have occured
[16:16] Andrew Linden: and would like to find out if my CLI script solves all of them or not
[16:17] Andrew Linden: er... not "inventory problems" in general but things that apper to be inventory corruption
[16:17] Ardy Lay: Right
[16:17] Andrew Linden: that is, large inventories will usually not load correctly in a 1.23 viewer
[16:17] Andrew Linden: so I can't fix that problem
[16:17] Ardy Lay: When you get that automatic inventory organizer ready let us know. ;-)
[16:17] Andrew Linden: but things like undeletable folders that show up at the topmost level
[16:17] Kallista Destiny: For what value of large?
[16:18] Kallista Destiny: 50K 100K 200K 1M?
[16:18] Andrew Linden: or maybe even folders that went missing and you're pretty sure you didn't delete
[16:18] Andrew Linden: I know that an inventory with 25k folders will have trouble showing up in 1.23
[16:19] Kallista Destiny: Andrew you might take a look at SVC-7653
[16:19] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7653
[ "LL entory repair tools broken; avatars can be permanently disabled by previously fixable inventory folder glitches." CHOP -839 *AngusGraham Ceawlin
[16:19] Andrew Linden: really what happens with 1.23 is...
[16:19] Ardy Lay: How about wearables that the viewer says are objects but cannot be rezzed?
[16:19] Andrew Linden: the more items/folders you have there the less likely you're going to see them all show up
[16:19] Andrew Linden: some will show, but some may appear to be missing, although they are not lost
[16:20] Andrew Linden: and the more packet loss you're experiencing the more things will probably go missing
[16:20] Nalates Urriah: IS the packet loss thng only for 1.23?
[16:20] Andrew Linden: Hrm... wearables that can't be rezzed...
[16:20] Andrew Linden: sure, I'll take a look, although that could be an asset problem
[16:21] Ardy Lay: I think somebody told me one of their shapes is now labeled as a shirt and it doesn't work either way.
[16:21] Kallista Destiny: This is the inventory corruption that gets fixed by those scripts, I think
[16:21] Andrew Linden: Ok thanks for that pointer at SVC-7653
[16:22] Kallista Destiny: nods nods Our Whirlly Fizz has been dealing with that a lot, as you can see
[16:22] Andrew Linden: Pathfinding went into RC this week, on Magnum
[16:22] Ardy Lay: THere are probably orphaned items in there owned by me. PRetty sure I managed to nullify some object parent UUID fields some time ago.
[16:22] Andrew Linden: So far it looks pretty good, but a few bugs have been reported
[16:23] Andrew Linden: the worst one that I know about is that some ground vehicles are broken
[16:23] Andrew Linden: Falcon and Maestro looked into some of those reports
[16:23] Andrew Linden: they had trouble reproducing but eventually did so on two vehicles I think
[16:24] Andrew Linden: upon closer examination they found some... design problems with the vehicles
[16:25] Andrew Linden: one had all the child prims set to "NO SHAPE" and the root prim was a hollow box, collapsed very thin in the Z axis
[16:25] Andrew Linden: so the collision shape was a concave mesh
[16:25] Ardy Lay: Empirical design yields dubious results when no sound engineering practices are available.
[16:25] Andrew Linden: I think that one also had some extra "gravity" that was pushing the vehicle very hard into the ground
[16:26] Andrew Linden: the result was that the vehicle was partially falling through the terrain
[16:26] Andrew Linden: which uses a "mesh shape" instead of a "heightfield" for its collision representation in the physics engine
[16:26] Andrew Linden: which makes for cheaper collisions and much better performance when computing the navigation mesh (needed for the pathfinding features)
[16:27] Andrew Linden: but can cause snagging and strange collision problems from partial penetrations
[16:27] Andrew Linden: so anyway, this one vehicle was partially penetrating because it was so thin and was being pushed hard into the ground
[16:28] Andrew Linden: another vehicle was very sensitive to the number of collision points, and also had a very thin box for its collision shape
[16:28] Ardy Lay: Can we see physics shapes in the viewer metadata displays?
[16:28] Ashiri Sands: Sound like the designer was trying to make up for the initial design flaw
[16:28] Andrew Linden: it is not clear if we'll be able to recover these vehicles as they are designed
[16:28] Rex Cronon: i think we need a automatic vehicle tester. u put vehicle on it and it tells u if something wrong with it
[16:29] Ardy Lay: I see a menu item but it immediately crashes viewer.
[16:29] Andrew Linden: Ardy, I'm not sure... I think that viewer option is only for the "static" objects in the world
[16:29] Andrew Linden: that is a new navmesh feature, right?
[16:29] Ardy Lay: Not in this viewer
[16:29] Andrew Linden: er... part of the pathfinding viewer
[16:30] Ardy Lay: I am not using PF viewer, I hav viewer-development
[16:30] Andrew Linden: oh. huh...
[16:30] Andrew Linden: no I'm not familiar with that option
[16:30] Ardy Lay: Develop > Render Metadata > Physics Shapes - crash to desktop
[16:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[16:31] Ardy Lay: Heh, maybe it just divides by zero. ;-)
[16:31] Andrew Linden: but I think there is some object collision information that may be visible for static objects in the pathfinding viewer
[16:31] Andrew Linden: if so, you could try setting a dynamic object static, and make it part of the navmesh, and then trigger a navmesh rebuld...
[16:32] Andrew Linden: and then you could download the navmesh and collision shape data and maybe be able to see that object's collision shape
[16:32] Ardy Lay: Heh, last time I did that the region crashed. I'll assume that is fixed now.
[16:32] Kallista Destiny: Oh, Andrew there was a report that there is an issue wihere some % of mesh objects simply fail to cross out of PF regions let me see if I can find it.
[16:32] Andrew Linden: Yeah, we think we did a pretty good job of fixing the server crash bugs in the pathfinding servers.
[16:33] Tankmaster Finesmith: famous last words :D
[16:33] Andrew Linden: Actually, I think that failure of mesh region crossings is a know (expected) issue
[16:34] Andrew Linden: the reason being that we use some Havok black-magic (optimized data I/O) for transmitting mesh collision info across region boundaries
[16:34] Ardy Lay: I guess I am gonna have to give up on my personal custom viewer. I can't afford to keep buying licenses for the libraries that require it. I want to use PF and upload mesh. KDU was expensive enough.
[16:34] Andrew Linden: and there is sometimes a version incompatibility when the physics engine gets updated
[16:35] Andrew Linden: as was the case for the pathfinding project
[16:35] Andrew Linden: such mesh objects can cross from old physics engines to new, but not new to old
[16:35] Kallista Destiny: Yesh but the % was rather low (15% I believe))
[16:36] Andrew Linden: So, some mesh objects would cross from new to old, but not all?
[16:37] Andrew Linden: I guess the table is open.
[16:38] Andrew Linden: Of course Kelly, if you have any news go ahead.
[16:38] Kallista Destiny: yes here is the notice Seems that Mesh Arrows have under some special Circumstances Problems to cross Regionboundaries. We tested it with Mesh and Sculpted Arrows, in 1 of 15 cases the Mesh Arrows failed, the Sculpted didnt. Please inform your people to switch to sculpted Arrows when they fight over Regionboundaries.
[
[16:38] Kelly Linden: I just finished up some work so llGetInventoryCount and llGetInventoryName were significantly faster, especially with large object inventories.
[16:39] Kelly Linden: At the same time I'm looking at a cap on the number of items that can go in an object's inventory - so if you have feedback on that I'd appreciate it.
[16:40] Rex Cronon: there r objects with over 2k in their inventory. what will happen with them if u restrict max inv size?
[16:40] Kelly Linden: Legacy objects will retain their inventories but no new inventory can be added to them.
[16:41] Rex Cronon: we need at least 2048 items per object inventory:)
[16:41] Kelly Linden: If you have MAX + 100 then you can rez, take, copy etc but you can't add inventory to it until it is under MAX
[16:41] Kelly Linden: Okay Rex.
[16:41] Kelly Linden: (why?)
[16:42] Ardy Lay: Can you make the limit for script different from the limit for other task inventory types?
[16:42] Andrew Linden: If the object is no-modify can the inv items be removed? I can't remember if that is allowed or not.
[16:42] Kelly Linden: Ardy: already done. The limit for scripts already exists and is 1k per entire linked set
[16:42] Ardy Lay: Cool
[16:42] Kelly Linden: Andrew: no, I don't think so.
[16:42] Ardy Lay: I was thinking about all the texture viewers out there with large numbers of textures in them.
[16:42] Rex Cronon: look. a linked object can be of max 256 objects, each one needs at least one script, one texture, one sound, possibly one sound file
[16:43] Andrew Linden: if you can't take an overfull no-modify object... can you delete it?
[16:43] Kelly Linden: You CAN take an overfull object
[16:43] Tankmaster Finesmith: why do you want to put a cap into the amount of items stored inside a prim?
[16:43] Kelly Linden: You CAN take, you CAN rez, you CAN copy overful objects.
[16:43] Rex Cronon: if u add them up u get to around 2048 things per prim
[16:44] Kelly Linden: you just can't add more inventory to them.
[16:44] Kelly Linden: Rex: that seems backwards - you mean 2048 per object because one of each at least on each prim?
[16:44] Andrew Linden: Ah I see... I read back. You can't copy or add inventory *items* but you can copy or take the object.
[16:44] Kelly Linden: Andre correct.
[16:44] Rex Cronon: i mean at least the root prim needs that many
[16:45] Kelly Linden: Ah, okay.
[16:45] Rex Cronon: otherwise u have to put things in each one of the prims and is pain to edit them
[16:46] Rex Cronon: and i do mean each prim in the linked object
[16:46] Ardy Lay: A thousand scripts per linkset still sounds like a hell of a lot to me.
[16:46] Ardy Lay: Probably won't hit many legitimate products
[16:46] Rex Cronon: ardy. usually 90% of them r sleeping
[16:46] Kelly Linden: I'm looking at a limit for each prim, since that is how they are stored in the sim.
[16:46] Ardy Lay: Rex, sleeping doesn't unload the host
[16:46] Kelly Linden: 1k scripts is rare.
[16:46] Andrew Linden: well scripts are already specifically capped on a per-object basis (during rez of that object)
[16:47] Tankmaster Finesmith: you dont need a script in each prim to do things like changing color or size
[16:47] Ardy Lay: Right
[16:47] Rex Cronon: in the root u need at least on script per prim
[16:47] Rex Cronon: if u try to animate the object
[16:48] Ardy Lay: Demonstrate this, Rex>
[16:48] Ardy Lay: You have such an animated object to show us?
[16:49] Kelly Linden: was it rex who had the animating skeleton?
[16:49] Ardy Lay: The animated object I am familiar with use a single script but I don't own any of them.
[16:49] Ardy Lay: -object +objects
[16:49] Kelly Linden: someone had a very fluid animating stick figure skeleton
[16:49] Rex Cronon: i did some custom thing, and i need one script per prim
[16:50] Ardy Lay: Kelly, what was the update traffic from that like?
[16:50] Rex Cronon: and sometimes u want to change texture, sound, and particles for each prim in the linked set
[16:50] Kelly Linden: Ardy: I don't recall.
[16:50] Draconis Neurocam: it was fadeout razorfen
[16:50] Ashiri Sands: I'm still wondering what the limits for textures would be
[16:50] Kelly Linden: probably significant
[16:50] Draconis Neurocam: who made the skeleton
[16:50] Kelly Linden: I don't recall.
[16:50] Andrew Linden: I saw an animated medieval guard in armor that looked fantastic... dunno how many textures it was using...
[16:50] Andrew Linden: but it was a big UDP object update storm
[16:51] Andrew Linden: lots of packets being sent to move each little piece
[16:51] Rex Cronon: sadly there are also "bullets" that have thounsands of scripts used for spamming:(
[16:52] Ashiri Sands: not just spamming
[16:52] Rex Cronon: self-replicators too
[16:52] Kelly Linden: bullets don't have thousands of scripts if they are a single object any more. The rez will fail.
[16:52] Ardy Lay: I have seen one animated tail generate enough update traffic to cause distant clients to time out. I don't understand that behavior but when I ejected the tail's wearer the problem ended and update traffic coming to me dropped from over 3megabytes per second to less than 120 kilobytes per second.
[16:52] Kelly Linden: (been this way for months I believe) they may have hundreds.
[16:53] Rex Cronon: u right kelly
[16:53] Kallista Destiny: Like thi one?
[16:54] Rex Cronon: i haven't see them in months
[16:54] Kallista Destiny: this
[16:54] Ardy Lay: Oh, somebody dropped an object called Diablo that downed a region. Looked like ti had a lot of scripts in it.
[16:54] Ardy Lay: Maybe this 1K script limit will stop that.
[16:55] Kelly Linden: The 1k script limit is old.
[16:55] Ardy Lay: I say it downed a region, maybe it just tied up I/O long enough for clients to disconnect.
[16:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[16:55] Ardy Lay: Ah, I don't know then.
[16:56] Ardy Lay: This was about 2 weeks ago.
[16:56] Ardy Lay: I think I was IMing Andrew about chat lag when it happened.
[16:57] Kelly Linden: As always the Maint Server branches include some new anti-griefing fixes. So, maybe that will help. :)
[16:57] Ardy Lay: Okay
[16:57] Tankmaster Finesmith: good to hear
[16:57] Ashiri Sands: Always playing catch-up it seems ≪⁕⁔⁕≫
[16:57] Ardy Lay: You need to red-pill those guys.
[16:57] Kelly Linden: On BlueSteel now. Got another in internal QA and writing code for a third. Trying to keep that pipe flowing.
[16:57] Kelly Linden: :)
[16:58] Ardy Lay: Glad to hear that, Kelly
[16:58] Kelly Linden: Have a good weekend.
[16:58] Andrew Linden: I need some help with the transcripts today
[16:58] Rex Cronon: tc kelly
[16:59] Andrew Linden: usernames are still not showing up in my chat history
[16:59] Tankmaster Finesmith: tc kelly, andrew, simon
[16:59] Ardy Lay: OKay Andrew. Want me to put it in a notecard or email?
[16:59] Ashiri Sands: Just display names showing?
[16:59] Andrew Linden: so I would appreciate it if someone could save the transcripts and send them to me
[16:59] Andrew Linden: via notecard or email
[16:59] Ardy Lay: I will do that, Andrew.
[16:59] Andrew Linden: Yeah, so everyone would be called "Loading..."
[17:00] Andrew Linden: Thanks Ardy
[17:00] Rex Cronon: loading... rex
[17:00] Rex Cronon: lol
[17:00] Rex Cronon: now i am downloadable:)
[17:00] Andrew Linden: That would be a very hard transcript to make sense of...
[17:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[17:00] Kallista Destiny: Andrew jut a moment I'll have a transcript fo you
Simulator_User_Group
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