Mesh/Archive/2012-09-10

==Agenda==
# Given that the jira is no longer going to be an effective means of accurate two-way exchange of information, how can we communicate with other users about problems with the content creation processes and their solutions, especially in the context of this user group where the commonest question is "can you give me the jira for that issue"? Drongle McMahon
# Update on server side texture baking and a request Nyx Linden 08:54, 10 September 2012 (PDT)
# After spending days on a project, I found that a custom physics shape only kicks in after 0.500m, below that it boxes up. On a prim it boxes up under 0.065. Is there is a reason for this? And will this remain at such a large size for a custom form for the future? Obviously this causes issues and inhibits smaller scale builds when smaller and more accurate physics are required. Sheena Kamala
# Lots of landowners are turning pathfinding off on their sims, claiming a significant performance hit with pathfinding enabled. I did not see this effect in my own experiments. I wonder what other people are finding. Poppet McGimsie
# Status of Deformer, custom riggs, and so on... [Davido Chrome]
# When can we expect this Jira to be fixed/released ? https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-29183 [Gaia Clary]
==Meeting Notes==
==Attendees List==
*Abel Dreamscape (abel.dreamscape)
*Alexa Linden (alexa.linden)
*√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome)
*Djehan Kidd (djehan.kidd)
*Gaia Clary (gaia.clary)
*Geenzian Scientist (geenz.spad)
*awesome (jana.drezelan)
*Kennylex Luckless (kennylex.luckless)
*Motor Loon (motor.loon)
*Nal (nalates.urriah)
*Nyx Linden (nyx.linden)
*Oz Linden (oz.linden)
*Poppet McGimsie (poppet.mcgimsie)
*Prep Linden (prep.linden)
*Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi)
*Second Life (second.life)
*Sheena Kamala (sheena.kamala)
*Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)
*Bazz Fazz (vir.linden)
==Transcript for Monday September 10, 2012==
[11:58]	Motor Loon 	ey nyx and prep
[11:59]	Prep Linden 	yoyo
[11:59]	Geenzian Scientist (geenz.spad) 	kinda dead today
[11:59]	Geenzian Scientist (geenz.spad) 	I propose that we have a pizza party instead of hte regularly scheduled meeting!
[12:00]	Nyx Linden 	agenda is here, feel free to add topics: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group
[12:00]	Nyx Linden 	/me supports the pizza party initiative
[12:00]	Alexa Linden 	Greetings all :)
[12:01]	Alexa Linden 	Hi Tank :)
[12:01]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	Alexa!
[12:01]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	o/
[12:01]	Alexa Linden 	:D
[12:02]	Alexa Linden 	Hi Nalates :)
[12:02]	Nyx Linden 	going to get started presently, seems a couple of people are still popping in - agenda link is here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group
[12:03]	Nyx Linden 	first topic: "Given that the jira is no longer going to be an effective means of accurate two-way exchange of information, how can we communicate with other users about problems with the content creation processes and their solutions, especially in the context of this user group where the commonest question is "can you give me the jira for that issue"? Drongle McMahon"
[12:04]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Added topic
[12:04]	Alexa Linden 	Thanks Davido :)
[12:05]	Nyx Linden 	good question, this is one we've been getting a lot. Collaborating on an issue is definitely an area of concern with the new JIRA setup
[12:05]	Alexa Linden 	yes
[12:05]	Poppet McGimsie 	/
[12:05]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Also, won't you get a lot more duplicates this way?
[12:05]	Poppet McGimsie 	why did they change it?
[12:05]	Motor Loon 	Not excactly thought thru - or deliberate design?
[12:06]	Alexa Linden 	That's another concern/ issue we're going to need to look at Davido
[12:06]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	upper management desision <- thinks thats speaks for itsself on those questisons :P
[12:06]	Motor Loon 	Ofcourse
[12:06]	Nyx Linden 	for the time being at least, let's try collaborating on the details of a bug report in the forums and taking the results into a jira. We can also discuss details of a particular bug report here to make sure we get the details straighened out before filing an issue
[12:07]	Poppet McGimsie 	is it in effect already?
[12:07]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Your suggesting we talk over a bug here before filing a JIRA item?
[12:07]	Alexa Linden 	yes Poppet
[12:08]	Motor Loon 	will old Jira's be "converted"
[12:08]	Motor Loon 	?
[12:08]	Alexa Linden 	for Poppet - http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Tools-and-Technology/JIRA-Update-Changes-to-The-Bug-Reporting-Process/ba-p/1660981
[12:08]	Poppet McGimsie 	I read it hee hee
[12:08]	Alexa Linden 	at this time I don't believe so Motor
[12:08]	Nyx Linden 	this should be a good place to discuss issues you are seeing, and we can clarify if several people are seeing the issue before filing it, to make sure it is complete.
[12:09]	Poppet McGimsie 	what about the wiki? I hope there are no corresponding plans to change that?
[12:09]	Nyx Linden 	this meeting is appropriate for discussing the details of content creation-related bugs
[12:09]	Alexa Linden 	not that I'm aware of Popper
[12:09]	Poppet McGimsie 	because it seems perhaps people will discuss things more on wiki pages
[12:09]	Alexa Linden 	I can't type today
[12:09]	Alexa Linden 	Pottep* (sorry)
[12:09]	Poppet McGimsie 	hahaha
[12:09]	Abel Dreamscape 	strike 2
[12:09]	Alexa Linden 	/me hangs her head in shame
[12:09]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	>.<
[12:09]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	That would seem to limit the process to a rather small number of people. It would also lengthen the time needed to report a bug.
[12:09]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	thats ok, we speak typoneese
[12:10]	Alexa Linden 	xD
[12:10]	Poppet McGimsie 	for example on the LSL wiki, people may well contribute more information in comments that they used to put in the jira
[12:10]	Nyx Linden 	not every bug needs to be discussed here, this is just a good place to have those discussions if you want to work with other people on filing a bug
[12:10]	Motor Loon 	seems to me, the Wiki would a better place for it anyways
[12:10]	Nyx Linden 	the forums are another good place
[12:11]	Poppet McGimsie 	yes it is not like the jira was not confusing
[12:11]	Nyx Linden 	/me battles with jira every day. sometimes it lets me win ;)
[12:11]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	having a separate platform for bugs makes for a lot easier searching though...
[12:11]	Oz Linden 	/me thinks that wikis are not very good for information that does not have a very long useful life
[12:11]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Could the JIRA push a copy of the report to a special section of the forum?
[12:12]	Alexa Linden 	That's something I'm looking at Nalates
[12:12]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Yay... tht could sove some problems.
[12:12]	Poppet McGimsie 	dunno -- for example the wow wiki-things have vry good info about problems in game, that are there a long time, and very useful
[12:12]	Alexa Linden 	some way of doing this.. or getting it out there
[12:13]	Poppet McGimsie 	it is easier to fin things on search on a wiki too
[12:13]	Motor Loon 	ah well, lets just see how it goes... if it goes to hell.. I'd assume the decision would be reverted.
[12:14]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	How do you coordinate and file feature requests? have you stopped accepting those altogether?
[12:14]	Motor Loon 	Personally... I kinda like that I now don't have to spend time search jira before doing a report... no longer MY problem if there's 1000 duplicate reports ¬∞Õú¬∞
[12:15]	Motor Loon 	And I'm sure LL will have to hire extra manpower to sort out the jiras ... so new jobs are always a good thing too ¬∞Õú¬∞
[12:15]	Oz Linden 	true, Motor
[12:16]	Nyx Linden 	For now file feature requests as bugs, we'll let you know if that changes.
[12:17]	Nyx Linden 	any other questions around the JIRA changes and how it affects letting us know about content creation issues? Or should we keep moving to the next agenda topic?
[12:17]	Motor Loon 	So we'll be requesting new bugs ,-)) haha, love it...
[12:17]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Aaargh!
[12:18]	Alexa Linden 	if you put it in the title, I'll find them ;)
[12:18]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Question, WHY! Did yiou make it so closed?
[12:18]	Alexa Linden 	people have been doing FEATURE REQUEST - .....
[12:18]	Motor Loon 	Most likely, we'll never get the answer to that Davido ¬∞Õú¬∞
[12:18]	Geenzian Scientist (geenz.spad) 	unfortunately "why" doesn't seem to be an answerable question, at least for now
[12:18]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	One question on that topic...
[12:19]	Motor Loon 	(can you kill your soundspam boots Djehan?)
[12:19]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Who can see the BUG items. Lance a non-Linden could see my BUG-9.
[12:19]	Geenzian Scientist (geenz.spad) 	active contributors, support helpers, and a few others I think
[12:19]	Djehan Kidd 	yeah sorry
[12:19]	Geenzian Scientist (geenz.spad) 	I think Oz and Alexa would know who exactly has access there
[12:19]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Would that be anyone with a signed C.A.?
[12:20]	Oz Linden 	where 'active contributors' and 'support helpers' are Jira groups
[12:20]	Motor Loon 	I cant see that Nal
[12:20]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	OK that makes sense
[12:21]	Oz Linden 	The active contributors group is a subset of people with CAs
[12:21]	Oz Linden 	(the active ones :-) )
[12:21]	Poppet McGimsie 	what is ca?
[12:21]	Motor Loon 	confidentiality agreement
[12:21]	Oz Linden 	Contribution Agreement
[12:21]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Contributir Agreement
[12:21]	Poppet McGimsie 	oh okay
[12:21]	Motor Loon 	ah close ¬∞Õú¬∞
[12:21]	Alexa Linden 	lol
[12:22]	Djehan Kidd 	what's that?
[12:22]	Oz Linden 	there is a set of contributors who pretty routinely provide fixes to easy bugs that people file... I think we all want them to be able to see the new bugs
[12:23]	Djehan Kidd 	mesh related I guess
[12:23]	Geenzian Scientist (geenz.spad) 	the CA is the thing that people like me have to sign before we can contribute code upstream for the official viewer
[12:23]	Sheena Kamala 	The only thing that makes sense about not seeing jira's.. is not being able to see what has or hasn't been dealt with. Other than that.. it makes no sense
[12:23]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "Update on server side texture baking and a request Nyx Linden 08:54, 10 September 2012 (PDT)"
[12:23]	Poppet McGimsie 	what is server side texture baking?
[12:23]	Sheena Kamala 	sorry.. I am shh.. :-)
[12:24]	Nyx Linden 	we're doing some pretty significant moving around of code in the viewer to get ready for server side texture baking and we could use a hand.
[12:24]	Djehan Kidd 	server side bakery
[12:24]	Djehan Kidd 	smells good
[12:24]	Motor Loon 	heavy box lifting?
[12:24]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Poppet, this is the avatar bake process... server side bake machine
[12:24]	Nyx Linden 	We need to have a set of test avatars to make sure that we haven't broken anything, so I figured there might be some creators here who would have some complex avatars that would be good for testing
[12:25]	Nyx Linden 	Poppet - we're moving the computations for how to generate your avatar's appearance to our servers instead of your computer.
[12:25]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Are mesh attachments going to be in the bake process?
[12:25]	Poppet McGimsie 	seems that a number of things are shifting to server (like pathfinding)
[12:26]	Poppet McGimsie 	that number being 2
[12:26]	Nyx Linden 	I'm especially interested in making sure we do the right thing with outfits that use multiple clothing layers, flared pants, alpha masked avatars, and the like
[12:26]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Wasn't pathfinding always server?
[12:26]	Nyx Linden 	Nal - attachments will not be part of the baking process, whether they are prim, sculptie, or mesh, they use a different system.
[12:26]	Poppet McGimsie 	(in theory pathfinding is a new capability, and not something being moved)
[12:27]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	OK... your "I'm intersted in..." answered the question well.
[12:27]	Motor Loon 	Do you need us to test with our avatars - or do you need full avatars & outfit packs that YOU can test with?
[12:27]	Poppet McGimsie 	(I don't know if traditional methods of moving prims around were server side or client side)
[12:27]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Baking for atatchements is only needed when we get a feature to have layered textures on them. :D
[12:28]	Nyx Linden 	we don't have a viewer ready to hand out for everyone to test on and file bugs against yet, we'd like to get some internal testing done first to make sure we haven't completely broken everything :)
[12:28]	Motor Loon 	makes sense
[12:28]	Nyx Linden 	also we'd like to get things finished up and the viewer changes a bit more stable first
[12:28]	Djehan Kidd 	I hope they fix windlight cloud's density bug soon, and fyi anyone on firestorm it is worst than on LL viewer at the mo
[12:28]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Nyx, how are we going to get the avatar or avatar info on the bake to you?
[12:29]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	So what you need is any avatar with alpha layers and all kinds of clothing layers, like chaps for pants showing off the underwear layer and stuff? Sexy seethrough lingerie?
[12:30]	Nyx Linden 	You can pass me a folder or a marketplace link, or you can let me know what account name and saved outfit name you use, and I can test it out on an internal grid (your account will not be affected)
[12:30]	Djehan Kidd 	and quid of the deformer?
[12:30]	Nyx Linden 	you can also send me pictures of what the avatar is supposed to look like, that would help as well
[12:30]	Motor Loon 	that sounds very doable
[12:31]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	I forget, do you prefer IM/NC/Email?
[12:31]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	icr :P
[12:31]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	irc*
[12:31]	Nyx Linden 	I personally prefer email, but I'll take whatever format is best for you guys.
[12:31]	Motor Loon 	whats wrong with a handwritten note via snailmail now
[12:32]	Alexa Linden 	lol
[12:32]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	:P Not that many of us do IRC... I probably should.
[12:32]	Nyx Linden 	nyx at lindenlab.com
[12:32]	Bazz Fazz (vir.linden) 	include a hand-drawn sketch of the desired appearance :-)
[12:32]	Nyx Linden 	TCP over pigeon gets bonus points.
[12:32]	Geenzian Scientist (geenz.spad) 	snail mailed I assume Vir? :P
[12:33]	Motor Loon 	/me is pretty damn awesome at drawing stick figures
[12:33]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	SPCA will cmplain about us stuffing pidgons into out computers
[12:33]	Alexa Linden 	hahaha
[12:34]	Nyx Linden 	so let me know if you have any avatars that would be good for testing, and pass the word around that I'm looking for test avatars if you can :)
[12:34]	Geenzian Scientist (geenz.spad) 	I'll just sketch something up, scan it, then transmit each packet by carrier pigeon on little pieces of paper
[12:34]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	one bit at a time, UDP style
[12:34]	Nyx Linden 	(remember carrier pigeons have ~50% packet loss)
[12:34]	Alexa Linden 	xD
[12:35]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	DAmn, how many pigeons would you need?
[12:35]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "After spending days on a project, I found that a custom physics shape only kicks in after 0.500m, below that it boxes up. On a prim it boxes up under 0.065. Is there is a reason for this? And will this remain at such a large size for a custom form for the future? Obviously this causes issues and inhibits smaller scale builds when smaller and more accurate physics are required. Sheena Kamala"
[12:42]	Second Life 	Teleport completed from http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/LindenWorld%20B/153/77/47
[12:44]	Djehan Kidd 	wow that was an ugly crash lol
[12:44]	Djehan Kidd 	1
[12:45]	Second Life 	Teleport completed from http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Hawkshead/15/8/40
[12:45]	Alexa Linden 	plus he's got smooth dance moves ;)
[12:46]	Bazz Fazz (vir.linden) 	Who ate our region?
[12:46]	Alexa Linden 	/me dances to the music in her head....
[12:46]	Kennylex Luckless 	It is in the void now.
[12:46]	Alexa Linden 	"it's the final countdown........."
[12:46]	Alexa Linden 	/me ducks
[12:46]	Poppet McGimsie 	wants to see the pink icedream dance
[12:46]	Poppet McGimsie 	c*
[12:47]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	There was a lot of big penises floating around in an adjacent region, so I am guessing griefer crash.
[12:47]	Djehan Kidd 	http://listenonrepeat.com/watch/?v=_HFE8uIAr8k
[12:47]	Alexa Linden 	hahahahahahaha
[12:47]	Alexa Linden 	thanks Davido xD
[12:47]	Djehan Kidd 	lol
[12:48]	Nyx Linden 	Whelp. Shall we just continue here for now?
[12:48]	Alexa Linden 	meeting notes... meeting ended due to flying penises.....
[12:48]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	may as well
[12:48]	Motor Loon 	yaay
[12:48]	Sheena Kamala 	Yes
[12:48]	Alexa Linden 	run for the boarder!
[12:48]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	There are less interesting ways to end a meeting.
[12:49]	Nyx Linden 	I'll give everyone another minute or two to get back
[12:49]	Nyx Linden 	apologies for the interruption
[12:50]	Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi) 	If the sim doesn't crash again...
[12:50]	Poppet McGimsie 	think I am crashed
[12:50]	Djehan Kidd 	12
[12:50]	Poppet McGimsie 	guess not
[12:50]	Poppet McGimsie 	did you trip over the plug?
[12:50]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	"run for the boarder!"? Who is boarding what?
[12:51]	Poppet McGimsie 	loled at alexa floating down
[12:51]	Motor Loon 	Perhaps I should file a feature request jira for a "No crashing" switch in the estate panel
[12:51]	Nyx Linden 	ok shall we get back to it?
[12:51]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	sure
[12:51]	Sheena Kamala 	Ready
[12:52]	Nyx Linden 	current topic is: "After spending days on a project, I found that a custom physics shape only kicks in after 0.500m, below that it boxes up. On a prim it boxes up under 0.065. Is there is a reason for this? And will this remain at such a large size for a custom form for the future? Obviously this causes issues and inhibits smaller scale builds when smaller and more accurate physics are required. Sheena Kamala"
[12:52]	Sheena Kamala 	Yes my q that caused the crash:-)
[12:52]	Poppet McGimsie 	Actually I was hoping the person who asked would give a couple of examples of things that need tiny physics -- perhaps it is a quantum effect
[12:53]	Nyx Linden 	there is indeed a reason: the physics computations get significantly more complicated the more triangles you pack into a given space, so when you shrink a model down it gets more and more expensive to compute. Prims have less of an issue because their shape is determined by their parameters, not just a group of triangles
[12:53]	Sheena Kamala 	Not so tiny really.. i was aiming for .3.. but was too small
[12:53]	Motor Loon 	/me googles quantum effect
[12:54]	Poppet McGimsie 	why does something so tiny need a custom physics sha[e? just curious
[12:54]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Motor, that will give you a nice week of uninterrupted reading.
[12:54]	Motor Loon 	Oh joy and fun
[12:54]	Sheena Kamala 	So you are saying that if I had less triangles.. I could make it below .5?
[12:54]	Poppet McGimsie 	a week? I spent 30 years on it
[12:55]	Second Life 	Lynn Jestyr (glblynlwynlwyg.jestyr) is now known as Lynn.
[12:55]	Motor Loon 	yeah I'll get back to you in 2042
[12:55]	Sheena Kamala 	I couldn't find any information about physic limitations anywhere.. so this is why I needed to bring it up
[12:55]	Djehan Kidd 	1
[12:55]	Poppet McGimsie 	Sheena, I am really curious, why something small needs a custom physics shape?
[12:55]	Nyx Linden 	no, we set 0.5 as the size when meshes switch to a box physics shape, the size of the switch is fixed, not variable
[12:55]	Motor Loon 	its more about it "switching to convex" I think
[12:56]	Sheena Kamala 	So the triangle amounts are irrelevant really? Sorry I just want to be clear here.. not trying to argue
[12:56]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Nyx, is that something that is happening server side, during upload, or what?
[12:56]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	That's interesting, so you don't have to bother with making cheap custom physocs for jewelry then, it will be all the same?
[12:56]	Motor Loon 	but perhaps you should consider having it to a m3 volume instead of any x,y,z being under 0.5
[12:57]	Motor Loon 	why would jewelry need physics at all ?!
[12:57]	Poppet McGimsie 	my question eactly
[12:57]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Because you can't upload it without it. XD
[12:57]	Djehan Kidd 	maybe Sheena is making very special things that need physics, what kinda obj are you talking about sheena?
[12:57]	Poppet McGimsie 	really curious
[12:57]	Motor Loon 	just upload it with a simple box or something... dont matter
[12:57]	Sheena Kamala 	Well it's not for jewellery.. I don't think that would be necessary
[12:57]	Nyx Linden 	the switch happens at run-time on the server side. Triangle counts are not irrelevant, but the limit is not based on triangle counts. triangle counts still have a performance impact.
[12:57]	Poppet McGimsie 	sher must be making a flea circus
[12:58]	Djehan Kidd 	*+ LoL +*
[12:58]	Sheena Kamala 	Yeah it's a flea circus lol
[12:58]	Motor Loon 	but something thats 10m x 10m x 0.4 shouldn't get this action applied
[12:58]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Might be an issue if you want to make pathfinding mesh small birds?
[12:58]	Motor Loon 	if it's 0.4x0.4x0.4 its another matter
[12:58]	Poppet McGimsie 	but why? they could still move around as blobs
[12:58]	Sheena Kamala 	Okay an example woud be.. if you have a maze and want marbles to run through it.. if it's table size.. it won't work.. that's a comparason to what I am making
[12:59]	Poppet McGimsie 	ah okay
[12:59]	Motor Loon 	small birds should probably use a boxshape anyway Davido
[12:59]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Yeah, sorry, bad example. I can't think of a good example I must admit...
[12:59]	Nyx Linden 	would probably be pretty challenging to see what's going on in a table-size maze in SL - things tend to focus on larger builds, but point taken
[12:59]	Motor Loon 	Havok wouldn't run that well anyway Sheena
[13:00]	Sheena Kamala 	I have found a way around it.. after 3 days.. but it has been a killer to find out
[13:00]	Poppet McGimsie 	but why do spheres need a custom physics shape?
[13:00]	Sheena Kamala 	Poppet in this case/.. it would be the walls actually
[13:00]	Sheena Kamala 	they would not allow the ball to run between them
[13:00]	Motor Loon 	yeah I can see a wall with a doorway being the main thing "damaged" by this
[13:00]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Does the physics change happen for Prims and Mesh?
[13:01]	Poppet McGimsie 	she's making a 3d graphic machinima of fantastic voyange?
[13:01]	Sheena Kamala 	prims is .065.. mesh is .5.. so a huge difference
[13:01]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	oh that splains it
[13:01]	Sheena Kamala 	lol Poppet :-PP
[13:01]	awesome (jana.drezelan) 	what kind ov tpic one?
[13:01]	awesome (jana.drezelan) 	of*
[13:02]	Sheena Kamala 	Ok.. so it will remain at .5?
[13:02]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Hmm, reminds me of a person that tried to make longer race tracks by scaling down the cars to petite size. The cars were great fun to drive, but the physics engine had trouble dealing with them. Went right through most prims.
[13:02]	awesome (jana.drezelan) 	nope when linked it will be back to 0.65 ^^
[13:02]	Nyx Linden 	currently there are not plans to change the limit.
[13:02]	awesome (jana.drezelan) 	yeay!
[13:02]	Poppet McGimsie 	Sheena, how does the failure manifest? in Execution in world, or during upload f mesh?
[13:02]	Motor Loon 	you could always do some trickery to your mesh to make it's "bounding" box better than the actually mesh object
[13:02]	Motor Loon 	as a workaround
[13:02]	Sheena Kamala 	It happens on rezz inworld
[13:02]	Nyx Linden 	we're a bit over time, mind if I keep moving to the next topic?
[13:02]	Motor Loon 	will cost a bit more on PE though
[13:03]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	ok w/me
[13:03]	awesome (jana.drezelan) 	i has a question if its ok.. my mesh have same physic box but avatars seems to hover like 20 cm over it
[13:03]	Djehan Kidd 	next topic is?
[13:03]	Sheena Kamala 	Yes I have afound a way around it now.. but it's ugly lol
[13:03]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "Lots of landowners are turning pathfinding off on their sims, claiming a significant performance hit with pathfinding enabled. I did not see this effect in my own experiments. I wonder what other people are finding. Poppet McGimsie"
[13:03]	Djehan Kidd 	yes I did
[13:04]	Djehan Kidd 	it was noticable the first days after releasing pathfinding I think that now it should be safe to go back to normal and peopel will do it
[13:04]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	You might need to come back tomorrow for that?
[13:04]	Motor Loon 	I didn't jump on the "panic wagon"... and I've seen no problems with pathfinding enabled on any of my sims
[13:04]	Djehan Kidd 	was on FS at least, no idea with LL viewer
[13:04]	Poppet McGimsie 	what is the effect on, Djehan? Which statistics?
[13:04]	Djehan Kidd 	I had a bit of lag and my users were reporting lag as well and it was better a bit after I turned it off, it's just that I forgot now
[13:04]	Djehan Kidd 	it had typical lag
[13:04]	Nyx Linden 	there should be little to no performance impact with enabling pathfinding. If you put a bunch of pathfinding objects on your sim, the quality of the pathfinding should degrade instead of the sim's performance.
[13:05]	Djehan Kidd 	but now it should be fine maybe
[13:05]	Djehan Kidd 	I will turn it back on anyways
[13:05]	Poppet McGimsie 	well I looked at statics with and without pathfinding enabled and could not see a thing on the statistics window
[13:05]	Djehan Kidd 	I did turn it off I had users telling me "laaaag "na dI saw quickly saw a text saying to turn it off on firestorm webpage
[13:05]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	SL has had an increase in Lag since pathfinding went on. but it seems to be regardless if Pathfinding is turned off or not.
[13:06]	Djehan Kidd 	but yes turning it back on soon
[13:06]	Motor Loon 	even if you did see something on the statistics window ... I'm rather sure you'd never feel the effect on the sim
[13:06]	Poppet McGimsie 	everyone is saying that, but no one is saying what they mean by lag -- whih statistic is being affected?
[13:06]	Nyx Linden 	if anyone knows of a particular region that can reproduce worse performance with pathfinding enabled, please let us know and we'll investigate
[13:06]	Djehan Kidd 	$it was typical lag, like trying to walk and slowing down even with my fast machine
[13:06]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	i thkn the updated havoc may be more to blame than pathfinding
[13:06]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	/me nods.
[13:07]	Poppet McGimsie 	but how do you distinguish that lag from just regular old lag? I mean, you'd have to turn it on and off a few times and see some effect
[13:07]	Poppet McGimsie 	sometimes there are just lag spikes
[13:07]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	That would make sense. Because the lag seems worse than before regardless of whether Pathfinding is on or off. Since Pathfinding when grid wide.
[13:07]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	as enabeling/disableing PF doesnt really do anything performance wise, but going between region with it and without it, there was a noticable diff
[13:07]	Djehan Kidd 	and fiberoptic connexion, typical lag but maybe it was something else, it is just that the word spreads fast if it is announced on FS webpage to turn it off
[13:07]	Nyx Linden 	the new havoc code will still be enabled even if you turn off the pathfinding feature
[13:07]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	rght ^
[13:07]	Motor Loon 	yeah... BAD firestorm team... BAD
[13:07]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	?
[13:08]	Djehan Kidd 	I didn't try to look further, it is as well typical to get laggy with a new feature the first days and it is fixed very shortly after
[13:08]	Djehan Kidd 	turning it back on anyways
[13:08]	Poppet McGimsie 	fixed psychologically I think
[13:08]	Nyx Linden 	anyways if you guys know of a region that can reproduce worse performance, let us know where it is and we will investigate
[13:08]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "Status of Deformer, custom riggs, and so on... [Davido Chrome]"
[13:08]	Djehan Kidd 	ha yessssss
[13:09]	Djehan Kidd 	deformer ! deformer!
[13:09]	Poppet McGimsie 	is there any reason taht pathfinding should affect sim performance (other than the incredibly wonderful decrease in scripts times of pathfinding scripts over traditional ones)
[13:09]	Nyx Linden 	Oz knows more about the latest status than I do - I would check at his Usergroup
[13:09]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	A new deformer viewer came out last week...
[13:09]	Djehan Kidd 	how is it going?
[13:09]	Motor Loon 	but with the new deformer "setup" you need clothes thats uploaded espicially for deformer to even test it out
[13:09]	Nyx Linden 	Poppet - the amount of time that pathfinding uses on the sim should be very small, not very noticeable at all.
[13:10]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Hah, I knew it was a good idea to wait with buying rigged mesh clothes!
[13:10]	Poppet McGimsie 	people are trippin' out about it big time though
[13:10]	Motor Loon 	Put 20 VKC dogs on your sim.... look at performance.... then get 20 pathfinding VKC dogs and repeat... I'm sure your sim will be ALOT better of
[13:10]	Djehan Kidd 	deformer was working great for me with like a full avatar figure, as soon as I started to make clothes it started to get distorted
[13:11]	Poppet McGimsie 	(which of course they do about something every day)
[13:11]	Djehan Kidd 	how is it now? is there any mm, bets about when it should come out?
[13:11]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Poppet a lot of information on Pathfinding is here: http://blog.nalates.net/?cat=139
[13:12]	Nyx Linden 	Sorry I don't have any updated information on the deformer project. Oz should know more, please catch him at his usergroup
[13:12]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Makes sense. Homemade LSL pathfinding algorithms would be a lot less effective than backend defined pathfinding.
[13:12]	Poppet McGimsie 	thanks nalates, will have a look
[13:12]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	The latest I have on the Deformer is here: http://blog.nalates.net/2012/09/08/mesh-deformer-update-36/
[13:13]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Though writing pathfinding algorithms is fun!
[13:13]	Nyx Linden 	last topic (sorry have to get on to other work today) "When can we expect this Jira to be fixed/released ? https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-29183 [Gaia Clary]"
[13:13]	Poppet McGimsie 	and those sub-.01 ms script times are very lovely
[13:14]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Nal: Server not found
[13:14]	Nyx Linden 	I don't have an ETA on a fix for that bug, but I will float this one as a candidate to be worked on
[13:14]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Its working for me AlveHatt
[13:14]	Gaia Clary 	Prep has told me 2 months ago, it was fixed and iot wol dbe available with the next pathfinding update...
[13:15]	Nyx Linden 	ok, I'll ask him for a status update
[13:15]	Gaia Clary 	but i never saw any viewer that had the fix applied :(
[13:15]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	AlveKatt... sorry
[13:15]	Gaia Clary 	thanks
[13:15]	Nyx Linden 	unfortunately need to wrap up here. Thanks for coming out everyone and thanks for your patience with the region today!
[13:15]	Poppet McGimsie 	thanks
[13:15]	Poppet McGimsie 	see you all alter
[13:15]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Gaia, any word on when we will see the next Blender release?
[13:15]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Nal, ah worked the second time I clicked the link. Strange.
[13:15]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Bye Lindens...
[13:16]	Sheena Kamala 	Thanks and ciao for now:-)
[13:16]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Thank you¬Ω
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