Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2012.02.03

Simulator_User_Group
Prev 2012.01.31	Next 2012.02.07
== List of Speakers ==
Andrew Linden 	Davido Chrome 	Draconis Neurocam
Johan Laurasia 	Kallista Destiny	Kaluura Boa
Kelly Linden 	MartinRJ 	Nalates Urriah
Rex Cronon 	Simon Linden 	Sniper Siemens
TankMaster Finesmith	Vincent Nacon 	
== Transcript ==
[16:01] Vincent Nacon: he's a machine, of course
[16:02] Kallista Destiny: Hi Andrew
[16:02] Vincent Nacon: organic machine, that is
[16:02] Sniper Siemens: hi Andrew
[16:02] Vincent Nacon: which is called human
[16:02] Vincent Nacon: :P
[16:02] Johan Laurasia: Long time no see Andrew
[16:03] Davido Chrome: Hmm. That is an Idea. A script that teleports me home, and a big sign just where I land that says "Today you should be doing THIS instead of being on Second Life"
[16:03] Simon Linden: I really gotta go furniture shopping
[16:03] Rex Cronon: greetings everybody
[16:03] Vincent Nacon: you can buy sofa from me
[16:03] Vincent Nacon: :P
[16:03] Kallista Destiny: lol
[16:04] Simon Linden: haha, I would if I didn't have so many problems sitting on them. I haven't learned the trick yet - sometimes it works, sometimes not
[16:04] Andrew Linden: Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Gotta go find an expanding table
[16:04] Kallista Destiny: cam from the front of the seat
[16:04] Rex Cronon: if u buy them, they suddenly start working right;)
[16:04] Andrew Linden: or something that is permanent
[16:05] Simon Linden: I have the old one still, but it would be nice to try something new
[16:05] Davido Chrome: Have you seen the floating platforms at TheBlackBox tech expo?
[16:05] Vincent Nacon: avatar sit the nearest polygon's edge on physical mesh
[16:05] Simon Linden: I'd like to get something that can hide when the user group isn't in session
[16:05] Vincent Nacon: so where you "right click" is the aim
[16:05] Simon Linden: or have the mod perms so I can do that
[16:05] Rex Cronon: it should fold away?
[16:05] Johan Laurasia: is llCastRay() useful in that area?
[16:06] Andrew Linden: Ok news...
[16:06] Andrew Linden: Unfortunately I don't have any news myself. Simon and Kelly?
[16:06] Simon Linden: Well, I managed to create SVC-7650 this week
[16:06] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7650
[#SVC-7650] Color change not applied correctly on cylinder when number of faces is change by altering prim properties.
[16:07] Simon Linden: That's in our RC channels, and will block them from promotion to the full grid next week
[16:08] Simon Linden: It's a cosmetic bug introduced by some optimizations around updates ... the old code would build and re-build data about textures over and over. Now it only re-builds when needed, but unfortunately not on one case where it's needed
[16:08] Simon Linden: I've been working on that today and we'll roll out the fix for it into the RC next week
[16:09] Andrew Linden: What channel is that on Simon?
[16:09] Simon Linden: I think there's another version or two also in the works -- possibly the region crossing code, and another with some voice fixes and/or diagnostics
[16:09] Kelly Linden: right now, *all of them*
[16:09] Simon Linden: The current one? Right, all of 'em
[16:09] Andrew Linden: Ah ok.
[16:09] ER-1606: 3 sides detected.
[16:09] ER-1606: 4 sides detected.
[16:10] ER-1606: 3 sides detected.
[16:10] ER-1606: 4 sides detected.
[16:10] Andrew Linden: You say there is another "verison" in the works. You're talking about projects that might hit RC next week, right?
[16:10] Simon Linden: Yes, so we'll fix this bug that's on all 3 of the RC channels with an update next Wednesday
[16:11] Davido Chrome: Makes me think of a similar bug, The one where you have to take things to inventory to update Link-numbers.
[16:11] Simon Linden: It's likely to get dropped down to 1 or 2 RC channels as some others are released
[16:11] Simon Linden: It shows up on that cylinder over there ... when the hollow disappears, the bottom turns red instead of blue
[16:11] ER-1606: 3 sides detected.
[16:11] ER-1606: 4 sides detected.
[16:11] ER-1606: 3 sides detected.
[16:11] ER-1606: 4 sides detected.
[16:11] Andrew Linden: Davido, do you have a jira # for that bug you're talking about?
[16:12] Andrew Linden: Last user group meeting we were talking about a recent throttle on llGiveInventory(). Kelly did we decide to make any changes on that?
[16:12] Vincent Nacon: to be honest, I'm surprised someone still care about old prim instead sculpty or mesh
[16:12] Kelly Linden: Still investigating, there probably won't be any changes next week.
[16:12] Davido Chrome: No, I took for granted A Jira on that allready existed, because everyone that wants to do wheel rotations for example with only one script are subject to it.
[16:13] Simon Linden: That's all the news I have today
[16:14] Johan Laurasia: Well, I'm pretty sold on mesh, not that there aren't uses for old school prims, but mesh gives you the ability to be more detailed with lower impact.
[16:14] Vincent Nacon: yeah but the server weight is kinda annoying
[16:14] Davido Chrome: Anyway, doing a search.
[16:14] Vincent Nacon: 0.5 for each object
[16:14] Johan Laurasia: yeah, takes time to figure that out
[16:14] Vincent Nacon: not very flexible
[16:15] Andrew Linden: ok table is open
[16:15] Vincent Nacon: I'm saying it should replace Scale weight factor for something more predictable.
[16:15] Rex Cronon: i have a question about LlSetRegionPos
[16:15] Rex Cronon: is it live yet? if it isn't when will it be?
[16:15] Vincent Nacon: ahh yes... before talking about server weight for Mesh... what';s the deal for SetRegionPos?
[16:16] Johan Laurasia: it's something you have to get a feel for, early stuff was very primmy, but I'm now able to make stuff lower impact yet retain detail
[16:16] Johan Laurasia: it's a matter of just working on it I suppose
[16:17] Andrew Linden: Simon, didn't the RC with llSetRegionPos() get promoted this week?
[16:17] Kelly Linden: I'm pretty sure it did.
[16:17] Simon Linden: Yes, I just checked ... it should be available on the full grid
[16:17] Andrew Linden: excellent
[16:17] Rex Cronon: cool:)
[16:18] Davido Chrome: I have a question, are you having stability issues? There were a lot of sim crashes today.
[16:19] Kaluura Boa: Any chance to see PRIM_REGION or is just a no-no?
[16:19] Simon Linden: I don't know of anything new, AlveKatt
[16:19] Kaluura Boa: PRIM_POS_REGION*
[16:19] Davido Chrome: I honestly can't find any Jira about the Link number issue...
[16:19] Davido Chrome: Can someone else see if they can find it? Might be my bad Search-fu...
[16:20] Simon Linden: The crash rate looks pretty low, at least with the graphs that I'm looking at that have data into yesterday evening. The crash rate seems to be at a nice low level, typical of what we see after the rollouts
[16:20] Simon Linden: Was there a region where it was worse?
[16:22] Davido Chrome: I was riding around the Cobra sims. Moccasin was crashed, and the sim I was riding in Crashed, and then I was unable to TP back to my Home sim for a long while. I did catch some nice conversation in the Adult Hub I was sent to instead though...
[16:23] Davido Chrome: So I think a total of three sims around there crashed.
[16:23] Rex Cronon: i heard that there might be some moded viewers that can crash sims...
[16:23] Simon Linden: lol, it's always nice to explore new areas...
[16:23] Simon Linden: Was that "Moccasin Isle" ?
[16:23] Simon Linden: I see 1 crash there in the past 2 weeks
[16:23] Davido Chrome: Yes.
[16:24] Andrew Linden: Davido, what day/hour was Moccasin Isle unavailable?
[16:24] Davido Chrome: Oh, yeah. I was on that sim Building with Sculpt Studio when it happened.
[16:24] Davido Chrome: I mean in the last two weeks.
[16:25] Davido Chrome: Damn, I didn't note the time.
[16:25] Andrew Linden: day?
[16:25] Davido Chrome: Today.
[16:25] Davido Chrome: The crash when I was building were a week or two ago.
[16:27] Andrew Linden: hrm... Moccasin Isle was shutdown around 06:13 this morning, otherwise it was up (according to my records)
[16:27] Davido Chrome: Hmm. I got Online about 15:00 CET.
[16:27] Andrew Linden: oh wait.. no it did crash...
[16:28] Andrew Linden: but that crash is not on record. curious
[16:29] Davido Chrome: I am just glad I wasn't on it. The last time the owners thought I had crashed it with one of my Learning to script sessions...
[16:29] Andrew Linden: I'll go look for details
[16:30] Andrew Linden: brb (2 min)
[16:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[16:30] Simon Linden: Looking at our stats, the sim crash rates have been pretty good. The SL viewer has been crashy due to some memory leaks, but the latest beta that just came out should be much better
[16:31] TankMaster Finesmith: we are using this fixes in Firestorm already (the memory ones) and its helping a little
[16:31] TankMaster Finesmith: but not as much as we had hoped
[16:31] Andrew Linden: back
[16:31] Rex Cronon: wb
[16:32] Davido Chrome: I can run Firestorm v3.2.1.24179 pretty much indefinitely.
[16:32] TankMaster Finesmith: 3.3..0.248xx will be out sunday evening or so
[16:33] Davido Chrome: Will there be two releases again? Or have you fixed the Alpha bug on both?
[16:33] TankMaster Finesmith: just the updated OGL build
[16:34] Kallista Destiny: The memory eems to be much better than it was
[16:34] TankMaster Finesmith: but nayhwo,m off topic :P
[16:34] TankMaster Finesmith: anywho*
[16:34] Davido Chrome: Andrew, found anything interesting?
[16:35] Andrew Linden: what is interesting is what I did not find... which is a coredump for that crash
[16:36] Simon Linden: ... backing up, I don't think we'll see PRIM_POS_REGION as a variation for llSetRegionPos() soon. I won't rule it out, but I'd guess it's going to be lower on the priority list for a while than other work
[16:36] Vincent Nacon: "friendzoned"
[16:36] Davido Chrome: The other ones I thin crashed was Either Cobra Cove or Copperhead Cove. My Home position that seemed to have crashed as well is Anaconda Valley.
[16:37] Andrew Linden: there was an instability problem, at least on the particular host running Moccasin Isle at that time. There was a rash of crashes today on that machine in particular.
[16:38] Kallista Destiny: Hardware?
[16:39] Davido Chrome: Is, Anaconda and Cobra/copperhead Cove on the same machine?
[16:39] Andrew Linden: unlikely Davido, they have a large number of hosts to choose from
[16:40] Andrew Linden: huh... well this is a mystery at the moment
[16:40] Andrew Linden: I'll try to look around a bit more later, but unfortunately I don't have many clues
[16:40] Johan Laurasia: Do we have a Sherlock Linden?
[16:40] Johan Laurasia: lol
[16:40] Vincent Nacon: or Doctor Linden?
[16:41] Andrew Linden: uptime on this host is 5 days, which seems quite short
[16:41] Simon Linden: haha, that would be a good name. THere was a Doc for a while
[16:41] Andrew Linden: I wonder why it was restarted.
[16:41] Vincent Nacon: Doctor who?
[16:41] TankMaster Finesmith: Doctor Linden
[16:41] TankMaster Finesmith: :P
[16:41] Davido Chrome: The doctor! Oh I love David Tennant!
[16:41] Vincent Nacon: with Amy Linden?
[16:42] TankMaster Finesmith: >.<
[16:42] Vincent Nacon: fine...
[16:42] Vincent Nacon: Roy Linden
[16:42] Kallista Destiny: This is Le Tiger
[16:42] Rex Cronon: u need cpr linden;
[16:42] Rex Cronon: ;
[16:42] Rex Cronon: ;)
[16:43] Kallista Destiny: Dr. River Song.
[16:43] Kallista Destiny: And the Current Dr. is Matt Smith
[16:43] Davido Chrome: Pffft. Tennant!
[16:44] Simon Linden: lol
[16:44] TankMaster Finesmith notes we are easily distracted today
[16:44] Kallista Destiny: Who Alex Kingston think is 'Flirty'
[16:44] Vincent Nacon: anyway. What's the deal with Falcon Linden? he's still working on his "secret" project?
[16:44] Davido Chrome: Out of working memory error?
[16:44] Kallista Destiny: Spoilers
[16:45] Davido Chrome: XD
[16:45] Andrew Linden: No, HD was not full.
[16:45] Andrew Linden: There may have been some memory problems on that host this afternoon.
[16:46] Andrew Linden: Otherwise I see a bunch of logs about network traffic, but the traffic is on internal ports -- not coming from outside.
[16:46] Davido Chrome: Oh, sorry, was referring to our distractedness. :D
[16:46] Andrew Linden: I'll look at it more later.
[16:46] Andrew Linden: Anyone else have a topic for discussion?
[16:48] Vincent Nacon: yeah.... where's Falcon?
[16:48] Vincent Nacon: he's dead or what?
[16:48] Davido Chrome: Why does a Pyramid shape mesh, with 6 triangles, have the same Physics cost as a Cube mesh, with 12?
[16:48] Simon Linden: I don't think it was my turn to watch Falcon today...
[16:48] Vincent Nacon: muhaha!
[16:49] Andrew Linden: Falcon is busy working on features.
[16:49] TankMaster Finesmith: fun fact: 3/4s of the logins last week were on a mesh capable viewer
[16:49] Vincent Nacon: of course he is
[16:50] Davido Chrome: And why does simple Prim cube have lower Phyics cost than either?
[16:50] Kallista Destiny: Sekeit features.
[16:50] Vincent Nacon: but still not allowed to talk about them?
[16:50] Andrew Linden: Not yet.
[16:50] Kallista Destiny: Sekrit!
[16:50] Vincent Nacon: better not be about the vehicle...
[16:50] Johan Laurasia: He could tell ya, but then he'd ahve to kill ya
[16:50] Simon Linden: That's an interesting stat, Phoenix. I'm glad to hear it's becoming more common
[16:50] Andrew Linden: cubes are cheap for physics calculations
[16:51] Andrew Linden: I'm guessing that both the pyramid and cube mesh shapes are bumping into the minimum cost
[16:51] Kaluura Boa: I'd really like to know where those numbers come from...
[16:51] Davido Chrome: Being 0.5?
[16:51] Kallista Destiny: Top Sekrit Pave Linden
[16:51] Davido Chrome: Kaluura, hold on then.
[16:51] Kaluura Boa: (Talking about the login numbers...)
[16:51] Vincent Nacon: the scale factor weight for physic and download is utterly non-sense, btw.... I have to point that out.
[16:52] Vincent Nacon: was talking to game developers about it and they thought it was "strange"
[16:52] Davido Chrome: Kalura, oh.
[16:53] Draconis Neurocam: normal games don't usually have on the fly content creation capabilities
[16:53] Johan Laurasia: right, I think it's harder on a viewer when the object is larger.
[16:53] Vincent Nacon: strange as in, memories don't change in any scale regardless what camera position are
[16:53] Kallista Destiny: You could safly remove the word usually
[16:53] Johan Laurasia: so "server" is considering client too probably
[16:54] Andrew Linden: I think the scale factor was introduced to help track the number of triangles that go into the mesh shape. In general the larger the mesh scale the more triangles are used.
[16:54] Vincent Nacon: I think scale should be removed but... change server weight to make it more balanced and logical sense
[16:54] Johan Laurasia: it's just designed to force one to build efficiently, nothing really wrong with that.
[16:54] Kallista Destiny: Actually aize also enters into how may Avatars can see an object
[16:55] Vincent Nacon: yeah but Andrew.... why 2 triangle is costing more than 18 triangle (the surface of a normal cube prim)?
[16:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[16:55] Draconis Neurocam: because there is more going on in the backend, the system was set up to handle prims, mesh has more tied to it
[16:55] Draconis Neurocam: it was an add on
[16:56] Kallista Destiny: .1 m 64M
[16:56] Davido Chrome: Andrew, see Cube for numbers.
[16:56] Andrew Linden: Vincent, you mean, why is a 2-triangle mesh more expensive than a non-mesh cube?
[16:56] Vincent Nacon: yeah, in physic weight
[16:57] Vincent Nacon: when scaling it to sim-wide
[16:57] Nalates Urriah: Other than physics and download what more is going on in the server because of mesh?
[16:57] Vincent Nacon: err.. well.. at least 64m anyway
[16:57] Andrew Linden: What are the cost differences for those two objects Vincent?
[16:57] Vincent Nacon: to keep in mind, I'm trying to build a racing track, btw
[16:58] Rex Cronon: mesh is full of magic veritices, that is why:)
[16:58] Rex Cronon: vertices*
[16:58] Vincent Nacon: I mean why should physic weight goes up with scale
[16:58] Davido Chrome: Vincent, damnit. Me too...
[16:58] Johan Laurasia: because mass does?
[16:58] Vincent Nacon: it's not physical
[16:59] Draconis Neurocam: probably has something to do with how many triangles land has to create as the size goes up for collision?
[16:59] Johan Laurasia: then why are you arguing it's physics properties?
[16:59] Davido Chrome: Because the bigger an object, the more car/Bikes/things can pass over it at ones?
[16:59] Kallista Destiny: Volume goes up
[16:59] Vincent Nacon: yeah but that's silly... we (track developers) have been using mega prim cube to reduce physic lag
[17:00] Kallista Destiny: Mesh is 'special'
[17:00] Vincent Nacon: and to avoid edge collision as well
[17:00] Simon Linden: Large objects do become a heavier load - the physics engine tries to break up the world into "islands" that group objects that can affect each other
[17:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[17:00] Andrew Linden: I think the reasoning was that the larger the object the larger is it's cross-section -- it tends to collide with more stuff.
[17:01] Simon Linden: If you have a huge object, that makes a huge island - and one little thing that moves within that island needs to check if it hits all other objects in the island
[17:01] Vincent Nacon: yeah but that was the idea
[17:01] Andrew Linden: The fact that the orginal prims do not have a scale factor in their cost is more of an oversight, but supported because they are grandfathered.
[17:01] Nalates Urriah: Is there an optimum island size?
[17:01] Johan Laurasia: right
[17:01] Nalates Urriah: 64m?
[17:01] Vincent Nacon: that I know
[17:01] Simon Linden: The smaller and fewer objects within an island, the better
[17:01] Andrew Linden: That is, when we initially computed "cost" of objects we didn't take all the factors into account
[17:01] Vincent Nacon: but it does reduce physic lag
[17:02] Andrew Linden: and ended up with a formula that did not scale well with true "cost"
[17:02] Andrew Linden: going forward with mesh we tried to get it more correct
[17:02] Kallista Destiny: actually the old basic objects were undercharged, IMHO
[17:02] Andrew Linden: but we had to granfather all the old counting methods because otherwise a bunch of parcel owners would suddenly be over their limits
[17:03] Johan Laurasia: that would be a bad day...lol
[17:03] Andrew Linden: concave legacy (non-mesh) prims are definitely undercharged
[17:03] Davido Chrome: So that is why the Prims are 0.3 while the Mesh objects are 1.5 in physics cost?
[17:03] Simon Linden: I'm going to have to run ... I'd like to fix this bug before the end of the day
[17:03] Rex Cronon: tc simon
[17:03] Simon Linden: Thanks everyone for coming and the good chat
[17:03] Vincent Nacon: alrighty, take care Simon
[17:04] Davido Chrome: Thanks Simon.
[17:04] Simon Linden: See you next week
[17:04] TankMaster Finesmith: Take care simon
[17:04] TankMaster Finesmith: have a great weekend
[17:04] Johan Laurasia: still though, at the end of the day, I built a grandfather clock with legacy prims and it's prim count is like 27, I built a similar clock, with a land impact of like 5, so you still gain imensely with mesh.
[17:04] Vincent Nacon: yup
[17:04] Johan Laurasia: and the new clock is much more detailed too
[17:04] Andrew Linden: Right, we tried to make it so that if you do things right you can save costs.
[17:05] Johan Laurasia: and I'm getting there, it's work to figure out, but it's totally doable.
[17:05] Andrew Linden: However, it is also possible to make a mesh grandfather clock that is very expensive (if you do it wrong).
[17:05] Kallista Destiny: Well made mesh can be a HUGE win expecally for complex objects
[17:05] TankMaster Finesmith: oh, when will flight hight limit be raised/removed?
[17:05] Davido Chrome: Johan, yeah. The problem I have is that I just don't know which is most effective from a physics cost perspective. Like Vincent, I want to build a really physics effective track.
[17:05] Vincent Nacon: even a 12 prim shipping cargo
[17:06] Johan Laurasia: yeah, the earlier versions were higher impact, but I'm getting better at Blender, so that's where the savings is coming from.
[17:06] Johan Laurasia: it's really easy to make high impact stuff
[17:06] Davido Chrome: If you look at the image here on the Cube. I didn't get the numbers I expected.
[17:06] Vincent Nacon: yeah but not great for sim-wide projects
[17:06] MartinRJ: is it possible that the teleport-bug is back? (sim fps cripples when someone tps in)
[17:07] Vincent Nacon: it never went away, Martin
[17:07] Rex Cronon: i g2g. tc all
[17:07] Vincent Nacon: well... maybe not completely
[17:07] Johan Laurasia: well, I made a clock template with 3 cylinderical faces and when scaled up to 64x64x0.01, it's land impact is 2
[17:08] MartinRJ: seems that it got much worse. sim fps stays at a minimum for minutes when someone tps in:/
[17:08] Vincent Nacon: the lag is small but never gone
[17:08] MartinRJ: noticing it since a couple of days
[17:08] Andrew Linden: I've got to go too. Thanks for coming everyone.
[17:08] TankMaster Finesmith: have a great weekend, andrew
[17:08] Vincent Nacon: eep
[17:08] MartinRJ: goodbye Andrew
[17:08] Vincent Nacon: seeya Andrew
[17:08] Kallista Destiny: Thanks andrew and Simon
[17:09] TankMaster Finesmith: have a great weekend everyone
[17:09] Johan Laurasia: Yeah, thanks Andew/Simon
[17:09] Sniper Siemens: bye -)
Simulator_User_Group
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