User Experience Interest Group/Transcripts/2009-04-02

== Topic & Summary ==
User Experience Interest Group Discussion for April 02, 2009.
Topic: Detachable Windows.
We discussed ideas and approaches for allowing built-in windows (e.g. Build, Communicate) to be detached from the main viewer window. This would allow them to be moved out of the 3D view, and even placed on a second monitor.
We came up with two main approaches for implementing detachable windows:
* Use the current GUI widgets, but create a separate OpenGL context for each detached window. This would probably be the simplest to implement.
* Use a cross-platform GUI library (e.g. wxWidgets, Qt, or GTK) to create detached replicas of the normal windows.
We also briefly discussed the possibility of converting all or part of the UI to native widgets (using e.g. wxWidgets). The advantage of this would be to make the UI more familiar and consistent with the rest of the UI on each operating system. The main disadvantages would be potentially increased maintenance effort, increased support effort (e.g. having help resources for 3 operating systems). There was also some concern about support for non-standard UI widgets like pie menus, and that it could limit customization and innovation.
=== Links ===
* Does a cross-platform interface make Second Life a second-class application? (article by Tateru Nino)
* wxWidgets
* Opera Web Browser "Face Gestures" (April Fool's Day Joke)
* Intensifying Open Source Efforts (blog post by Philip Linden)
== Transcript ==
[15:10]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Alright, let's get started. Today's topic is detachable windows -- like being able to detach the Build window from the main SL window and move it around separately
[15:10]	Armin Weatherwax: 	its after midnight in germany, so dont complain, mccabe
[15:10]	Asterion Coen: 	so we will be abble to lost some windows by the way drinking scotch
[15:10]	Tegg Bode: 	That would be cool, love to be able to move my inventory, map to the second monitor ㋡
[15:11]	Charlette Proto: 	could that include all the tools or inother words the rendering window?
[15:11]	Jacek Antonelli: 	This has been a frequent request. Lotsa of people wanting to move things out of the 3D view, even move them onto a second monitor
[15:11]	Aimee Trescothick had a suspicion that poking someone while they were asleep could get you arrested 	Aimee Trescothick had a suspicion that poking someone while they were asleep could get you arrested
[15:11]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Tegg: User Experience Interest Group (open enrollement)
[15:11]	Charlette Proto: 	absolutely
[15:11]	Millie Thompson: 	I'd like to see stats once again visible on the G15 keyboards.
[15:11]	Armin Weatherwax: 	yes, please let me move the chat window out of my view. to my other computer on my little 2 computer lan best.
[15:12]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Well, if new windows created liek that are still drawn with llUI and OpenGL, then it would probably be any tools.
[15:12]	Morgaine Dinova: 	That would rock
[15:12]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah, there are plenty of windows that could be detached. And ideally there'd be a good way to program it so that *any* window could be detached.
[15:12]	Aimee Trescothick: 	getting SL to work right on the secondary monitor would be a good start
[15:12]	Asterion Coen: 	the nice point is that i will be abble to put avatars in several screen per categories. morgaines, hop in the kittie window, amiee, hop in the women windows, geneko hop in the erm... unknow window, etc :)
[15:12]	Geneko Nemeth slaps Asterion with a sensor bar 	Geneko Nemeth slaps Asterion with a sensor bar
[15:13]	Asterion Coen: 	:)
[15:13]	Millie Thompson: 	:p
[15:13]	Aimee Trescothick: 	Pixie window please
[15:13]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Heh
[15:13]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Would that be mutiple viewports, or multiple avatars on one viewer?
[15:14]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Is this even possible in a cross-platform way though?
[15:14]	Millie Thompson: 	Oooh, that would be handy
[15:14]	Geneko Nemeth: 	You coud use a cross-platform toolkit like GLib...
[15:14]	Jacek Antonelli writes a doctoral dissertation on "Multiple SL windows as a means for pigeonholing people by stereotype". :D	Jacek Antonelli writes a doctoral dissertation on "Multiple SL windows as a means for pigeonholing people by stereotype". :D
[15:14]	Armin Weatherwax: 	i can move my mousepointer from one computer "to" the other and even move the clipboard between them. if i had cross platform it would also work
[15:14]	Millie Thompson: 	I could boot this old 19" Trinitron off my desk for good.
[15:14]	Morgaine Dinova: 	lol J :-)
[15:14]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Although LL is trying to move to Qt because Gtk+Webkit+OpenGL=too much work
[15:14]	Aimee Trescothick: 	damn, we forgot the Pigeon window then
[15:15]	Charlette Proto: 	could we consider multiple rendering windows eg plan and elevation wiew for building (I often run multiple wiewers for that)
[15:15]	Jacek Antonelli: 	There *are* cross-platform GUI libraries. Qt, wxWidgets, some others.
[15:15]	Geneko Nemeth: 	GTK+...
[15:15]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yes
[15:15]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yeah, but do they do-multi-monitor, is the question.
[15:16]	Asterion Coen: 	they should !
[15:16]	Charlette Proto: 	that would really make sense not to have to log in alts to get multiple cameras
[15:16]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Each window will probably need its own event loop, which...
[15:16]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hrmm. I figured multi-monitor would be up to the operating system / window manager.
[15:16]	Asterion Coen: 	i at least will be abble to put stuffs in the screens that decorate my walls
[15:16]	Millie Thompson notices profiles are borked again. 	Millie Thompson notices profiles are borked again.
[15:16]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Theya re probably talking about multi-window...
[15:17]	Charlette Proto: 	Asterion you would be in a separate window without chat capability
[15:17]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Ah, OK. So what you're saying Jacek is to detach windows outside of the viewer app frame, not specifically to another monitor --- that would be done locally.
[15:17]	Asterion Coen: 	tss tss
[15:17]	Morgaine Dinova: 	That's cool
[15:17]	Asterion Coen: 	(am i that talkative?)
[15:17]	Tegg Bode: 	Hmm could be interesting performance hog, I once locked my camera onto a cute neko going past on a motorcycle and followed her ride for about 4 sims awy before my viewer crashed ㋡
[15:17]	Charlette Proto: 	same monitor or another is pretty much the same thing in Windows
[15:17]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Right. Basically, the idea would be to have separate windows, outside of the main viewer frame, that you can move around, minimize, etc. as regular windows on your desktop
[15:18]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Instead of them all being contained inside the main SL view
[15:18]	Jacek Antonelli: 	One of the benefits of that would be that you could move them whereever you wanted -- even to another monitor
[15:18]	Charlette Proto: 	yep or even rin a smaller 3D rendering window or two
[15:18]	Morgaine Dinova: 	That would be enough, yes
[15:19]	Jacek Antonelli: 	One approach for this would be to make replicas of the build windows using a cross-platform GUI library. So you'd have a window with the same layout and buttons as the Build window, but it would be made from your operating-system native buttons and such
[15:20]	Charlette Proto: 	I assume tool windows would use less CPU/GPU
[15:20]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I'd rather prefer to use OpenGL to render tethered windows, since this makes things consisant and easier to localize.
[15:20]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Yeah, tool windows don't need to be rendered every frame except by the windowing manager, if they are taken off.
[15:20]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Here's a question: would it be possible to set X11's DISPLAY env variable for an individual torn-off window, so that we could move the window to another *machine* as well? (X11 does all the heavy lifting, if we can supply a DISPLAY value)
[15:20]	Charlette Proto: 	you mean easier to find Geneko?
[15:21]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I'm not sure, Morgaine. It's all up in the air right now, hehe
[15:21]	Morgaine Dinova: 	kk
[15:21]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Easier to draw and easier to change. You don't have to write as much code, I miagine.
[15:21]	Charlette Proto: 	or support international controls
[15:22]	Geneko Nemeth wonderes why nobody took adbantage of Mozilla's XUL interface markup language. 	Geneko Nemeth wonderes why nobody took adbantage of Mozilla's XUL interface markup language.
[15:22]	Charlette Proto: 	mac resizing is hopeless so mac users benefit from having Open GL windows in Second Life™
[15:22]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I'm not an OpenGL guru, so I'm not sure if it'd be possible to use OpenGL to render the regular windows outside of the SL frame. But I'm guessing no, because OpenGL depends on having a rendering context (main view)
[15:22]	Armin Weatherwax: 	hm and if somewhere is an elephant to be eaten would this be a piece of it ?
[15:23]	Geneko Nemeth: 	NULL.
[15:23]	Asterion Coen: 	/(am i the only one to have profil issues?)
[15:23]	Millie Thompson: 	I couldn't load profiles a few minutes ago
[15:23]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek: I think you're right, GL would be off-limits to tearing off. But just the widget panels would be brill.
[15:24]	Armin Weatherwax: 	in other words: is this the startup of the plugin api?
[15:24]	Asterion Coen: 	some linden ar playing (again)
[15:24]	Asterion Coen: 	are
[15:24]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Hmm, since it's another windows wouldn't it be anoter rendering context?
[15:24]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Armin: It could be.
[15:24]	Armin Weatherwax: 	ok
[15:25]	Morgaine Dinova: 	This is much simpler than plugins ... there's nothing to plug in :-)
[15:25]	Armin Weatherwax: 	not yet :)
[15:25]	Jacek Antonelli: 	If we went the plugin route, the idea would basically to have each detached window be an actual separate program which communicates back to the main program
[15:25]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I expect that it won't need much more than an option set somewhere in the widget config to detach a window.
[15:26]	Geneko Nemeth still don't like the approach that plugins live as separate processes. 	Geneko Nemeth still don't like the approach that plugins live as separate processes.
[15:26]	Morgaine Dinova: 	No comment :-)
[15:27]	Armin Weatherwax: 	ok, keep plugins in mind for another meeting and focus again on topic
[15:27]	Charlette Proto: 	Geneko can you elaborate?
[15:27]	Charlette Proto: 	suppose the rendering window would be 'Camera 1' etc
[15:28]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I hope cameras becomes a topic for some future UXIG meeting.
[15:28]	Jacek Antonelli: 	(I'll add Cameras to the topic list :D)
[15:28]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hehe :-)
[15:28]	Charlette Proto: 	off topic but is there any way one could use the minimap to display plan view of a boulding site?
[15:28]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hrmm, okay doing a few Google searches, it looks like it *would* be feasible to have multiple windows for an OpenGL app.
[15:29]	Charlette Proto: 	the way minimap shows objects but making it more managed
[15:29]	Aimee Trescothick: 	in theory yes
[15:29]	Aimee Trescothick: 	but would be a lot more rendering load than it is now
[15:29]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hrm.
[15:29]	Aimee Trescothick: 	I've been digging into the minimap code a lot recently
[15:30]	Aimee Trescothick: 	it uses a very cheap approximation for the object overlay
[15:30]	Charlette Proto: 	how is that surely the 3D id just covered up by additional rendering tasks of the tools as it is
[15:30]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Aimee's implementing space invaders :-)
[15:30]	Aimee Trescothick: 	lol
[15:30]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Oh, the build planning minimap thing would take more rendering load. I got confused what you were talking about. >_<
[15:31]	Armin Weatherwax: 	hm, lack of vocabulary :boulding site ?
[15:31]	Charlette Proto: 	ah i understand minimap would be more demanding - but it would be of great use for builders if it was precise
[15:31]	Aimee Trescothick: 	the object overlay is done by just looking at each prim, averaging the X and Y dimensions, ignoring Z, and multiplying by 1.3 and then drawing that as a square
[15:31]	Charlette Proto: 	back to floater windows but
[15:31]	Aimee Trescothick: 	a better rendering there is something I'm investigating
[15:32]	Morgaine Dinova: 	1.3 under max zoom in?
[15:32]	Geneko Nemeth: 	It's always 1.3.
[15:32]	Aimee Trescothick: 	1.3 is just a fudge factor, prescaling
[15:32]	Charlette Proto: 	think it is worth to make the MiniMap more customisable for tasks like buildin and radars as we have discussed before
[15:32]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Aha
[15:33]	Aimee Trescothick: 	I'm looking at being able to select between the live object overlay and the main map texture, but that's kind of dependent on what's happening in the http-textures branch
[15:33]	Charlette Proto: 	how long till HTTP is implemented for textures?
[15:34]	Armin Weatherwax: 	i was playing around with anyears ?
[15:34]	Armin Weatherwax: 	sorry
[15:34]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, getting back to detachable windows, it looks like there are two strong possibilities -- using a cross-platform GUI library to create replicas of the windows, or creating extra OpenGL contexts and rendering the windows there
[15:34]	Armin Weatherwax: 	years
[15:35]	Jacek Antonelli: 	The second one would probably be easier to implement. But... then you're still stuck with the weird SL UI
[15:35]	Charlette Proto: 	additional camera windows would obviously need Open GL
[15:36]	Charlette Proto: 	so multiple Open GL context would be a must anyway
[15:37]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Well, it's possible to embed an OpenGL context within a GUI window. So it's not necessarily an either/or thing. Could be a combination
[15:37]	Charlette Proto: 	weir but better than mac, but I agree standard OS UI is better if not contained in the App window
[15:37]	Geneko Nemeth: 	How is standard UI better?
[15:38]	Charlette Proto: 	than using off the shelf GUI would eliminate some of the weir behaviours in Second Life™ floaters etc
[15:38]	Charlette Proto: 	more consitent with the OS like user's expect apps to behave
[15:38]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yes, exactly as Charlette says
[15:39]	Morgaine Dinova: 	wx appears to allow windows to be torn off.
[15:39]	Camber Front Door: Tegg Bode is at the door. 	Camber Front Door: Tegg Bode is at the door.
[15:39]	Charlette Proto: 	once all over the desktop the user would expect all UI elements to behave like the rest of the OS
[15:39]	Charlette Proto: 	less of a problem when inside the Second Life™ App
[15:40]	Charlette Proto: 	and I think it may stndarise the behaviours for given OSs which is a good thing eg scrollers
[15:40]	Charlette Proto: 	standarise*
[15:41]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Wouldn't it be harder to make and maintain the same version of the UI?
[15:41]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Every time you want to change be behaviour you have to write it twice.
[15:41]	Morgaine Dinova: 	wx has a single API, yet provides OS-native windows for each platform.
[15:41]	Geneko Nemeth: 	In addition, if it doesn't look like it fits in maybe th user won't expect it to behave such.
[15:41]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Yeah, but you still have the inside-viewer UI.
[15:42]	Charlette Proto: 	I thought using off the shelf GUI would give coding effort benefite rather than additional requirements
[15:42]	Jacek Antonelli: 	There was an interesting article about this a while back... *fetches*
[15:42]	Jacek Antonelli: 	http://www.metaversejournal.com/2009/02/23/does-a-cross-platform-interface-make-second-life-a-second-class-application/
[15:42]	Jacek Antonelli: 	"Does a cross-platform interface make Second Life a second-class application?"
[15:42]	Charlette Proto: 	wouldn't the same floaters work inside or outside the render window?
[15:44]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Using native UI widgets could possibly be more work for developers than using the same OpenGL-based widgets on all pratforms (as SL does now).
[15:44]	Charlette Proto: 	OK I get it
[15:44]	Jacek Antonelli: 	But I think the point is that there would (or might) be a strong improvement to usability
[15:44]	Geneko Nemeth: 	If using native widgets only incure a one-time cost, that would be okay.
[15:44]	Geneko Nemeth: 	But chances are that won't be the case.
[15:45]	Charlette Proto: 	is there a good crossplatform GUI lib we could use or have I missed it earlier?
[15:45]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Qt. LL approved.
[15:45]	Aimee Trescothick: 	well, I guess the 'cheapest" way is some way to take XUI and use that to produce the equivalent in the native
[15:45]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Or you could use my favorite GTK.
[15:45]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Aimee: Indeed, that's a strong possibility
[15:45]	Morgaine Dinova: 	wx has the same API for all platforms, despite actually appearing as OS-native on each platform.
[15:45]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Or WxWidgets, or even with Mozilla, but you gotta be quick and do this before Mozilla is factored out of the viewer.
[15:46]	Geneko Nemeth: 	:p
[15:46]	Aimee Trescothick waves bai bai to the Mozilla gorilla 	Aimee Trescothick waves bai bai to the Mozilla gorilla
[15:46]	Jacek Antonelli: 	wx would be my preference for this, I think. GTK and Qt don't really use OS-native widgets, which somewhat defeats the purpose
[15:47]	Charlette Proto: 	so 'wx' would possibly save coding effort rather than blow it out
[15:47]	Geneko Nemeth: 	They can "look" like they are native though. (Although Qt just doesn't feel native for some reason)
[15:48]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hrmm, wxWidgets has built-in support for OpenGL contexts. *ponders*
[15:49]	Jacek Antonelli: 	The 3D view could actually be inside a wxWidget window, with the floaters being separate windows...
[15:49]	Charlette Proto: 	not familiar with 'wxWidgets' - did you mean it does Jacek?
[15:49]	Jacek Antonelli: 	http://www.wxwidgets.org/
[15:49]	Charlette Proto: 	that sounds like what we want
[15:49]	Morgaine Dinova: 	We're using wxPython in PyOGP, so there's some synergy there for wx. I've only just started with it, but look damn impressive.
[15:50]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I'm sure $WIDGET does it as well.
[15:50]	Morgaine Dinova: 	There's wx for pretty much every language under the sun.
[15:50]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah, embedded OpenGL contexts aren't unique to wxWidgets. I expect most GUI libraries can do them
[15:51]	Charlette Proto: 	likes what she sees
[15:52]	Charlette Proto: 	even PERL for the nutters amongst us and coders
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hahaha
[15:53]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hehe
[15:53]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I like Perl
[15:53]	Charlette Proto: 	me too I love the readibility of codestructures in PERL
[15:53]	Jacek Antonelli: 	So there's another aspect of this, and that's making the whole UI native. A significant feat, but possible.
[15:54]	Charlette Proto: 	looks like wx works on Windows CE too
[15:54]	Morgaine Dinova loves coding in line noise 	Morgaine Dinova loves coding in line noise
[15:54]	Charlette Proto: 	PERL is like poetry hehe
[15:54]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Vogon?
[15:54]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Native? But we have pie menus :<
[15:55]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Native pie menus, haha
[15:55]	Jacek Antonelli: 	That's a good point. There are some UI widgets that SL has, but that native platforms don't
[15:55]	Charlette Proto: 	if we don'd develop the pie further it really should be dropped at the expense of gesture based computing support
[15:55]	Asterion Coen: 	need to go, have fun folks and have a nice windows ;)
[15:55]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Take care Asterion
[15:55]	Morgaine Dinova: 	See you Ast!
[15:56]	Charlette Proto: 	byee Asterion
[15:56]	Aimee Trescothick: 	me too
[15:56]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Also, using native widgets would give less control over appearance.
[15:56]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Baibai Aimee, take care
[15:56]	Aimee Trescothick waves goodnight 	Aimee Trescothick waves goodnight
[15:56]	Aimee Trescothick: 	:)
[15:56]	Armin Weatherwax: 	byes
[15:57]	Charlette Proto: 	what is the feeling about the radial menu (pie) make it more comprehensive/ update or drop it
[15:57]	Charlette Proto: 	what we do with it now does not support enough of the system to make fuss about it
[15:58]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hrmm.
[15:58]	Charlette Proto: 	since the rest of the functions need a pointer like a mouse or key commands itthe practicality of the pie is lost
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I suppose there's no reason why we couldn't have some native widgets, but also custom OpenGL widgets within the 3D view
[16:00]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I'd like to hear about some radical alternatives to the pie menu.
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Cake menus?
[16:00]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hehe
[16:00]	Charlette Proto: 	ponders if a radial menu could be implemented in wx in a way Maya does it (without the conventional look of the ppie)
[16:00]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I've never been happy with the paradigm of right-click on target + select option.
[16:01]	Charlette Proto: 	I like the idea of 3D custom controls to make it look and feel like fun
[16:01]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe we know how much cats like pies Morgain
[16:01]	Jacek Antonelli: 	o_O
[16:02]	Charlette Proto: 	I've not found enough support in my effort to emphecise the possibilities of the pie based menus and hate the ones we have
[16:02]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I'm much prefer simple targetting, followed by an action select that could be from anything, like keystroke, button, menu entry, etc
[16:02]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Once target is picked, no need for mouse to hold it.
[16:03]	Charlette Proto: 	however there is the issue of gesture computing which will not go away and dropdown menus are really not the way to go for gesture computing UI
[16:04]	Charlette Proto: 	yes but that is very cumbersome with anything but a mouse
[16:04]	Charlette Proto: 	or a pointer like a mouse
[16:04]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Or any pointing device...
[16:04]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Picking can be done with anything, including tabbing
[16:04]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Or directional keys...
[16:04]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Or voice...
[16:04]	Geneko Nemeth: 	XD
[16:04]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Or typing the name
[16:05]	Jacek Antonelli: 	/target Morg
[16:05]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yep. Ton of method of doing a select
[16:05]	Jacek Antonelli: 	/fire
[16:05]	Morgaine Dinova ducks 	Morgaine Dinova ducks
[16:05]	Charlette Proto: 	but not gesture based devices, needs too much precission
[16:05]	Jacek Antonelli: 	>:3
[16:05]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehe
[16:05]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Well, gesture computing isn't incompatible with other means of selecting things
[16:06]	Armin Weatherwax: 	face gestures ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkNxbyp6thM
[16:06]	Jacek Antonelli: 	For example, Blender has gestures for move, rotate, and scale, that apply to the currently selected object(s)
[16:06]	Charlette Proto: 	in Second Life™ voice is used to communicate and i can't see SL operated by voice for some reason
[16:06]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hahaha, Armin
[16:06]	Armin Weatherwax: 	^^
[16:07]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I like how the "Bookmark Page" gesture is licking
[16:07]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe that is soo funny - face gestures, I was thinking more of waving arms etc
[16:08]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Oh I think SL will be operated a lot by voice in time, except by those who use voice in-world.
[16:08]	Charlette Proto: 	great
[16:08]	Charlette Proto: 	imagine someone else seeing the cam
[16:08]	Charlette Proto: 	or the user in Real Life™ hehe
[16:08]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Subvocalizing with throat mic
[16:08]	Charlette Proto: 	grunt is quit
[16:08]	Morgaine Dinova: 	lol
[16:09]	Charlette Proto: 	burp would be for griefers only I think
[16:09]	Charlette Proto: 	moans to resize the skirt prims
[16:09]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hahaha
[16:10]	Jacek Antonelli loves the end-session random silliness. xD 	Jacek Antonelli loves the end-session random silliness. xD
[16:10]	Morgaine Dinova: 	It's traditional :-)
[16:10]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Darn they changed the pie menu in trunk :<
[16:10]	Charlette Proto: 	licking the screen to bookmark the said YouTube
[16:10]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Ew
[16:10]	Jacek Antonelli: 	They did, Gen?
[16:11]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Yeah, it looks like it came from Imprucence now, the attachment pie.
[16:11]	Jacek Antonelli: 	They are such copy cats. ... ... ... ;-)
[16:11]	Charlette Proto: 	interesting
[16:12]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Actually, McCabe made the pie patch before Imprudence was started, they're just not getting around to applying it.
[16:12]	Jacek Antonelli: 	*just now
[16:12]	Armin Weatherwax: 	if it was contributed to the jira it would be qaed to eternity
[16:12]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Oh, a lot of people know about Imprudence now, including Lindens. You're clearly doing something right, and fill a need :-))))
[16:13]	Charlette Proto: 	JIRA is a bit of waste of time unless LL want to do it in the forst place
[16:13]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Indeed
[16:13]	McCabe Maxsted coughs. Those were simpler times.... nice to know it's taken them 10 months to apply my patch to trunk though	McCabe Maxsted coughs. Those were simpler times.... nice to know it's taken them 10 months to apply my patch to trunk though
[16:13]	Morgaine Dinova: 	What do you folks think of this new community viewer plan of Philip's?
[16:14]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Not really gonna be a community viewer, still controlled by LL
[16:14]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I guess he himself fed up with the long LQ process...
[16:14]	Charlette Proto: 	doesn't know it
[16:14]	Jacek Antonelli: 	It should help get bugs fixed faster, Morgaine. But not innovation.
[16:14]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Or major UI improvements
[16:14]	Armin Weatherwax: 	ambivalent. could be a chance. could break the neck of 3rd party projects, too
[16:14]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Charlette: https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/technology/blog/2009/03/30/intensifying-open-source-efforts
[16:15]	Charlette Proto: 	thanks Morg
[16:15]	Charlette Proto: 	wow lots of tabs today
[16:15]	Jacek Antonelli: 	It's still controlled by LL and you're supposed to get approval from them before you commit anything.
[16:15]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yeah, sucks
[16:15]	Jacek Antonelli: 	So it'll still have many of the problems that JIRA has
[16:16]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Oh, and it still requires that biased Contributors Agreement.
[16:16]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Not so much as "biased" as "we want to sell your free labour later".
[16:16]	Armin Weatherwax: 	dunno if the time is already right for a meta project with a codebase the majority of viewer projects is using
[16:16]	Jacek Antonelli: 	But it *does* help remove some roadblocks, since you only have to cajole a Linden into giving you a nod, instead of making them apply the patch
[16:17]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Geneko: yep. It's an agreement that gives LL all the advantages, the community none
[16:17]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Which sactually isn't that bad...
[16:17]	Charlette Proto: 	true doing it may be the stumbling block with LL
[16:18]	Morgaine Dinova: 	It's still going to be Prudent.
[16:18]	Jacek Antonelli: 	It's funny, though. We can use LL's code or JIRA patches, because they are GPL. But they can't use our stuff unless we submit it to them.
[16:18]	Jacek Antonelli: 	So in a way, they are restricting themselves through the proprietary system
[16:18]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Even funnier, Imprudence can use Murrine or Clearlooks to build their stule all right, but Second Life can't!
[16:19]	Geneko Nemeth: 	*style
[16:19]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehe