User Experience Interest Group/Transcripts/2009-01-08

== Topic & Summary ==
User Experience Interest Group Discussion for January 8, 2009.
Topic: Notifications, Ubuntu / Canonical Flash Mockup. Benjamin and Malbers Linden attended.
We discussed the new mockup for a notifications system for Ubuntu (see links below), and what aspects of its design might provide inspiration for the SL Notifications redesign.
Some specific aspects we discussed:
* Ephemeral notifications, i.e. ones that aren't very important and disappear after a few seconds.
* Notifications that need user interaction, like teleport or inventory offers.
* Notifications history, to access a list of past or missed notifications.
Discussion occasionally drifted to other topics, such as Windows 7 and the task bar, and inspirations from the MacOS X Dock.
Benjamin Linden also said he'd like to write a post sometime about the evolution of the SL Voice / Communicate UI.
== Links ==
* Ubuntu / Canonical Notifications Mockup
* Growl, a notifications system for MacOS X
* A user proposal for a SL notifications redesign
* Evolution of Windows Taskbar
== Transcript ==
[15:03]	Morgaine Dinova: 	3 minutes into the session ... is there an agenda?
[15:03]	Geneko Nemeth: 	... also I guess it's a bit too late now now that Malbers is here, but I'm losing trust in LL.
[15:03]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Yes, it's about Landmarks... I think...
[15:03]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Cool, landmarks is a good issue
[15:03]	Aimee Trescothick: 	Notifications wasn't it?
[15:03]	Malbers Linden: 	Losing trust how, Geneko?
[15:04]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Benjamin's email mentioned the notifications/alerts
[15:04]	Aimee Trescothick: 	yup
[15:04]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Not landmarks, I thought
[15:04]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Aha
[15:04]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Yeah....
[15:04]	Malbers Linden: 	Ben wanted to talk about Notifications
[15:04]	Geneko Nemeth: 	My bad. XD
[15:04]	Malbers Linden: 	in relation to the stuff that came out about Ubuntu (i think)
[15:04]	Malbers Linden: 	who was it
[15:04]	Aimee Trescothick's playing with the new notifications console now :) 	Aimee Trescothick's playing with the new notifications console now :)
[15:04]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Notifications are even more interesting ... they tie into events in general, and that interests us in Imprudence.
[15:05]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Err... I posted that which was posted to Slashdot and posted by Ubuntu project leader Mark Shuttleworth first,
[15:05]	Malbers Linden: 	Ben's on his way, running late from his last meeting
[15:05]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hiya Charlette, Mm
[15:05]	Geneko Nemeth: 	but, it was Ubuntu's UX team who came up with that.
[15:05]	Malbers Linden: 	Yes, Geneko, on that post.
[15:05]	Charlette Proto: 	hi everyone
[15:05]	Mm Alder: 	Hi y'all
[15:05]	Geneko Nemeth: 	And I thought I have nothing to say on this hour..
[15:06]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hey Mm, hey Charlette
[15:06]	Jacek Antonelli: 	It is nice to be back :D 3 weeks of broken computer = no fun :((
[15:06]	Morgaine Dinova giggles at Charlette's pants falling down .... SL needs stronger elastic ;-) 	Morgaine Dinova giggles at Charlette's pants falling down .... SL needs stronger elastic ;-)
[15:07]	Charlette Proto: 	there is always something to talk about
[15:07]	Malbers Linden: 	Well, I know it's selfish, but only coming a couple times a month means everyone has super cool new outfits every time I see them.
[15:07]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehe Malbers
[15:07]	Charlette Proto: 	don't be like that Morgaine
[15:07]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Don't worry, I'll soon run out of money for buying avatars XD
[15:07]	Charlette Proto: 	some Second Life™ things are impossible in RL
[15:08]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Don't worry, interop will see prices plummet.
[15:08]	Geneko Nemeth: 	And they say 3D worlds synthesized from real life will prevail.
[15:08]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Take that Microsoft®!
[15:09]	Malbers Linden: 	Here's the URL that Geneko provided in email;
[15:09]	Malbers Linden: 	http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/253
[15:09]	Morgaine Dinova: 	So, notifications .... what are the problems, and where are they going?
[15:09]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Thanks Malbers
[15:09]	Geneko Nemeth: 	The API's redundant and messy, the UI is not pretty...
[15:10]	Geneko Nemeth: 	And hard to interact, I think.
[15:10]	Malbers Linden: 	I *think* Ben wantedt o have a discussion of some of the design principles in that blog post
[15:10]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Well the Ubuntu desktop is an utter disaster, so taking any ideas from there would be a bad move.
[15:10]	Charlette Proto: 	want us to read it now?
[15:10]	Geneko Nemeth: 	But hey, at least they are being imprudent. :p
[15:11]	Malbers Linden: 	Yeah, I was gonna go re-skim it to make sure I remembered what it said
[15:11]	Morgaine Dinova: 	They need highly Imprudent changes, aye.
[15:11]	Aimee Trescothick: 	well, the back end of the is hopefully now sorted out, it's the UI that still needs the work
[15:11]	Aimee Trescothick: 	*them
[15:11]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hey McCabe!
[15:11]	McCabe Maxsted: 	ahoy!
[15:11]	Aimee Trescothick: 	hi McCabe :)
[15:11]	McCabe Maxsted waves to everyone :) 	McCabe Maxsted waves to everyone :)
[15:11]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hiya McC!
[15:12]	Mm Alder: 	Malbers, while we're waiting for Ben: Does Big Spaceship have more to deliver or is the Flash page it? Are they going to make changes to the viewer?
[15:12]	Mm Alder: 	Or recommend changes?
[15:13]	Charlette Proto: 	Flash?
[15:13]	Malbers Linden: 	whoops, sorry Mm. I was reading
[15:13]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Yes, the new secondlife.com/ page.
[15:13]	Jacek Antonelli: 	That Ubuntu thing reminds me of Growl -- http://growl.info/about.php
[15:13]	Geneko Nemeth: 	(Only avaliable if you log out)
[15:13]	Aimee Trescothick: 	heh, I was just talking to Q about maybe integrating Growl
[15:14]	Jacek Antonelli looks to see if there's a video somewhere 	Jacek Antonelli looks to see if there's a video somewhere
[15:14]	Aimee Trescothick: 	he pointed out Growl is output only though
[15:14]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Intergration with OS notification system is certainly interesting.
[15:14]	Malbers Linden: 	Mm, I don't remember offhand what is public about our Big Spaceship relationship.
[15:14]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Mweh Mweh! :O
[15:14]	Malbers Linden: 	Ben is more in touch with BSS and would have an answer.
[15:14]	Morgaine Dinova: 	We've got that already in Linux, it's dbus.
[15:14]	Aimee Trescothick: 	but would still be useful to get growl notifications when I can't see the SL window
[15:14]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Dbus isn't libnotify...
[15:14]	Malbers Linden: 	I'm mostly out-of-the-loop regarding BSS.
[15:14]	McCabe Maxsted: 	interesting
[15:15]	Morgaine Dinova: 	The kernel notifications can be tied into dbus though ... anything can.
[15:15]	Malbers Linden: 	That sounded like Ben.
[15:15]	Mm Alder: 	Nice entrance, Ben.
[15:15]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Dbus is just a backend. Growl also has the UI.
[15:15]	McCabe Maxsted: 	ahoy, ben
[15:15]	Benjamin Linden: 	hi all!
[15:15]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hey Ben!
[15:15]	Benjamin Linden: 	sorry for my tardiness
[15:15]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hiya Ben!
[15:15]	Benjamin Linden: 	happy new year :-)
[15:15]	Malbers Linden: 	here's the URL again:
[15:15]	Malbers Linden: 	http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/253
[15:15]	Jacek Antonelli: 	An hour a month and 15 minutes late? Tsk. (Just joshing you... mostly ;) )
[15:15]	Benjamin Linden: 	lol
[15:15]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Thank you! And Happy New Year to everyone present :-)
[15:15]	Benjamin Linden: 	touche
[15:16]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Benjamin, I can't see your face :<
[15:16]	Benjamin Linden: 	thanks for reminding me Geneko
[15:16]	Charlette Proto: 	yep Happy New Year
[15:16]	Malbers Linden: 	That was the "scary Ben" helmet
[15:16]	Benjamin Linden: 	thanks for covering Malbers
[15:16]	Geneko Nemeth: 	.... freaky...
[15:16]	Aimee Trescothick: 	dbus is cross platform also
[15:16]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Don't slice off Geneko's head, please Ben
[15:16]	Benjamin Linden: 	have I missed much?
[15:16]	Benjamin Linden: 	lol
[15:16]	Benjamin Linden: 	I try to keep my blades to myself
[15:16]	Malbers Linden: 	posted the link so we could all go read it first
[15:17]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Don't worry, I'm not afraid of swords :(
[15:17]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yes, we posted the link to the Ubuntu flash mockup, and I also commented on its similarity to Growl on Mac -- http://growl.info/about.php
[15:17]	Benjamin Linden: 	heh ok
[15:17]	Benjamin Linden: 	I think you looked at growl quite a bit last spring, right Malbers?
[15:18]	Morgaine Dinova: 	A point of philosophy ... why the interest in integrating system notifications with the viewer? I know it sounds useful, but are you trying to make the viewer our desktop?
[15:19]	Benjamin Linden: 	hmm I don't think that's the proposal Morgaine
[15:19]	Morgaine Dinova: 	So why then?
[15:19]	Benjamin Linden: 	we are mostly looking at how other apps do notifications as inspiration for the viewer
[15:19]	Malbers Linden: 	We did look at Growl a lot
[15:19]	Malbers Linden: 	for the ephemeral nature of the notifications
[15:19]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Looking at the design and how it could be (maybe) applied within SL
[15:19]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Instead of the horrid blue boxes
[15:20]	Aimee Trescothick: 	I believe what's on the table is a similar UI style within the SL window for now right?
[15:20]	Malbers Linden: 	I'd push back further to the underlying desing principles (outside of appearance)
[15:20]	Charlette Proto: 	well the blue dialogs especially focus grabbing group notices we have couldn't be worse
[15:20]	Aimee Trescothick: 	(though it would still be nice to get them out into growl for when the SL window is hidden)
[15:21]	Morgaine Dinova: 	The blue boxes are just the default handler in the viewer though. Ignore them, they're transitory. What's important are the notification events themselves, what some into the viewer. The current notification representation won't last long.
[15:21]	Malbers Linden: 	The most controversial piece is that the Canonical proposal has no interaction within the notifications
[15:21]	Malbers Linden: 	Thoughts?
[15:21]	Benjamin Linden: 	yes I was just about to raise that point
[15:21]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I was just going to bring that up, Malbers
[15:21]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehe
[15:21]	Benjamin Linden: 	lol
[15:21]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Great minds ;)
[15:21]	Benjamin Linden: 	great minds think alike!
[15:21]	Benjamin Linden: 	yikes
[15:21]	Charlette Proto: 	first fix should be the ability to bring windows (floaters) into focus regardless of blue notices
[15:21]	Malbers Linden == Ben == Jacek 	Malbers Linden == Ben == Jacek
[15:21]	Benjamin Linden: 	lol
[15:21]	Jacek Antonelli: 	(Get outta my head!)
[15:21]	Malbers Linden: 	we're all the same person
[15:21]	Benjamin Linden: 	haha
[15:22]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Ah, my secret's out!
[15:22]	Malbers Linden: 	one person, three computers
[15:22]	Charlette Proto: 	alts
[15:22]	Benjamin Linden: 	right
[15:22]	Benjamin Linden: 	hehe
[15:22]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Mivehind!
[15:22]	Malbers Linden: 	it was a bitch to get two Linden alts
[15:22]	Benjamin Linden: 	I knew we couldn't keep up the ruse forever
[15:22]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Morgaine: Yes, the blue boxes are just one handler -- but before there can be another one, it has to be designed. Hence looking at what has been done before, and seeing what worked about it, and what didn't.
[15:22]	Benjamin Linden: 	Malbers, what do you think about the no-interactions rule?
[15:22]	Malbers Linden: 	ah, back to "no interaction within notifications"
[15:22]	StarSong Bright: 	hi all
[15:23]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hi Star! Good to see you :)
[15:23]	Malbers Linden: 	Philosophically, I like it
[15:23]	Malbers Linden: 	but I don't think it's realistic
[15:23]	Benjamin Linden: 	hi StarSong
[15:23]	McCabe Maxsted waves to star 	McCabe Maxsted waves to star
[15:23]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Well we're well ahead of them, since we can close the loop and feed notifications back. All it needs is a client-side scripting system fed off the event handler .... <ahem> :-)
[15:23]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Hi Starsong, today's topic is http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/253
[15:23]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hiya Star!
[15:23]	StarSong Bright: 	k ty, as soon as i can see eveyrone i will sit heh dont want to land on malbers
[15:24]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I think no-interaction kinda rules out that model for SL notifications, doesn't it? Or at least one set of them. You wouldn't want a teleport request or inventory offer to scroll and fade away before you could click it!
[15:24]	Malbers Linden: 	But attempting to minimize interactions within notifications -- providing options to go other places to tweak things -- might be an interesting design direction
[15:24]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Sitting on Malbers is fine, quite comfy. But don't sit on Ben, that would hurt.
[15:24]	Malbers Linden has no comment 	Malbers Linden has no comment
[15:24]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Resquerer Linden indeed. :3
[15:24]	StarSong Bright: 	oh idk i can be quite comfy.. excuse me a moment while i go look at that url
[15:24]	McCabe Maxsted: 	it could be useful for other notifications like, "you are entering damage enabled land" or "standing o people's heads is really mean"
[15:25]	Geneko Nemeth: 	XD
[15:25]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Maybe it could be applied to stuff like "So-and-so is offline", and maybe showing IMs from people when the communicate window isn't open.
[15:25]	Malbers Linden: 	we tended to split up notifications into "temporally relevant" and "not temporally relevant" items
[15:25]	Aimee Trescothick: 	the stuff that comes up bottom right
[15:25]	Malbers Linden: 	some things you gotta know about NOW while some can wait
[15:25]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Right, Aimee
[15:26]	Benjamin Linden: 	my preference is to be able to click on the notification and have it take me to the thing I'm being notified about (if applicable)
[15:26]	Malbers Linden: 	So the Canonical proposal is interesting in that it proposed a place for old notification to be visited later
[15:26]	Benjamin Linden: 	curious how others feel about that
[15:26]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Ah, I didn't notice that, Malbers.
[15:26]	Benjamin Linden: 	oh I didn't see that either Malbers
[15:26]	Benjamin Linden: 	where is it?
[15:27]	Malbers Linden is looking. maybe I dreamed it. 	Malbers Linden is looking. maybe I dreamed it.
[15:27]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Hmm... I think SABDFL explicitly said there will be no logs...
[15:27]	Benjamin Linden: 	it says lower down
[15:27]	Benjamin Linden: 	"otifications are only for things which you can safely ignore or miss out on. If you went out for coffee and a notification flew by, you are no worse off. They don’t pile up like email, there is no journal of the ones you missed, you can’t scroll back and see them again"
[15:27]	Malbers Linden: 	ah, I dreamed half of it....
[15:27]	Malbers Linden: 	"We think there should be persistent panel indicators for things which you really need to know about, even if you missed the notification because you urgently wanted that coffee. So we are making a list of those things, and plan to implement them."
[15:27]	Jacek Antonelli was about to paste that too. O_O 	Jacek Antonelli was about to paste that too. O_O
[15:28]	Benjamin Linden: 	lol
[15:28]	Benjamin Linden: 	maybe we don't need office hours, we can just mind meld
[15:28]	Jacek Antonelli: 	heh
[15:28]	Aimee Trescothick: 	well, just cut it once and paste it in both windows Malcek Lintonelli
[15:28]	McCabe Maxsted: 	haha
[15:28]	Jacek Antonelli: 	xD
[15:29]	StarSong Bright: 	i disagree with teh no way to go back and see them again, i tend to click them away and then realize i should have saved the attachment or something, then i have to go figure out what group it was and look it up... my wishlist would have a queue... i sincerely WISH we had an email box where i could simply set a rule and all the various notifications would tuck themselves in nicely for my later review. but sl seems to resist all my dreams of decent communications
[15:30]	Jacek Antonelli: 	So, yeah. There are "ephemeral" notifications, and non-ephemeral. And also intertaction-based and non-interaction based. Do they all map together (i.e. ephemeral is always non-interaction?)
[15:30]	Benjamin Linden: 	Malcek Lintonelli lol
[15:30]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Well here's a scenario for feedback through the notifications system, which ties into my interest in sim scalability. The incoming events that provide data for the Statistics Bar are (hidden) notifications, and for viewer scalability we'll want to take one parameter from that (Viewer FPS) and feed it back to both our renderer (reduce the clip plane) and to the sim (don't send objects outside the clipplane) --- that's event feedback.
[15:31]	McCabe Maxsted is curious if anyone else found "and you can't click them away" to be more intrusive rather than less 	McCabe Maxsted is curious if anyone else found "and you can't click them away" to be more intrusive rather than less
[15:31]	Benjamin Linden: 	god yes
[15:31]	Benjamin Linden: 	a perfect example is the minimized state of windows media player
[15:31]	Charlette Proto: 	yep like the foreground notices
[15:32]	Benjamin Linden: 	when you hover over it, it opens a small panel telling you what's playing
[15:32]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Star: that's just a side effect of the lack of notifications history.
[15:32]	Benjamin Linden: 	problem is, it's in very close proximity to the zoom controls in word, etc
[15:32]	Benjamin Linden: 	so I'm frequently activating that panel by accident
[15:32]	Benjamin Linden: 	and then there's no way to make it go away
[15:32]	Benjamin Linden: 	you just have to wait
[15:32]	McCabe Maxsted: 	ack
[15:32]	Benjamin Linden: 	which is so frustrating
[15:33]	Geneko Nemeth wishes SL has built-in "you're lisening to..."for land media, tied with notification system. 	Geneko Nemeth wishes SL has built-in "you're lisening to..."for land media, tied with notification system.
[15:33]	McCabe Maxsted can only imagine how hard it'll be to use SL™ windowed with the double-sized toolbar Windows 7 will be shipping with... but that's another rant	McCabe Maxsted can only imagine how hard it'll be to use SL™ windowed with the double-sized toolbar Windows 7 will be shipping with... but that's another rant
[15:34]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hrmm, what if they scrolled by, but the "important" ones would stick as smaller "bubbles" so you could click them later?
[15:34]	Geneko Nemeth: 	It kinda looks like KDE, that taskbar.
[15:34]	Charlette Proto: 	KDE4 taskbar is a joke to use
[15:34]	Jacek Antonelli: 	That is, accumulate as icons on very brief text at the top, and clicking them would bring up the full notice
[15:34]	Jacek Antonelli: 	s/on/or
[15:34]	Geneko Nemeth couldn't even start KDE. 	Geneko Nemeth couldn't even start KDE.
[15:35]	Charlette Proto: 	try counting the clicks on KDE taskbar
[15:35]	Benjamin Linden: 	hmm I haven't seen the double-sized toolbars, McCabe
[15:35]	Benjamin Linden: 	do you have a preview link?
[15:35]	StarSong Bright: 	i really really wish there was a preference i could set that would include the "you jsut paid so and so x number of lindens" to write to my chat log. every now and then i buy something and i dont get it, its a hassle to have to go look it up in the www transaction history, would be nice to scroll up. same for group notices, then if i click them away i can at least see what group it was. i suppose in a way you can becasue you get that "you declined ntoecard from a group member named X... stilld oesnt tell me what group.. sometimes you still have to figure it out.
[15:36]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I think having important things to be a notification tray icon is part of the proposal.
[15:36]	McCabe Maxsted: 	like how someone osted on http://imprudenceviewer.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=32
[15:36]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Just get rid of both KDE and Gnome both, and use the lightweight IceWM manager plus Idesktop for lightweight icons. Your system becomes 10 times as responsive, and you can still do everything.
[15:36]	McCabe Maxsted: 	yeah, let me find it
[15:36]	Charlette Proto: 	gosh I'm not keeping up
[15:37]	Benjamin Linden: 	that's a good point StarSong, are there notifications we're currently *not* giving that we should be?
[15:37]	McCabe Maxsted: 	http://blogs.msdn.com/e7/archive/2008/11/20/happy-anniversary-windows-on-the-evolution-of-the-taskbar.aspx
[15:37]	Geneko Nemeth: 	There's the parcel music I mentioned...
[15:37]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Don't bother keeping up with Jacek and me on plugins, unless you like overload. We'll tell you when we're done :-)))))
[15:37]	McCabe Maxsted: 	the "engineering windows 7" blog... lots of interesting stuff (and finally an admission that all the UAC did was make people blindly click "yes" more)
[15:38]	Benjamin Linden: 	oooohhh I love UI evolution docs
[15:38]	Benjamin Linden: 	:-)
[15:38]	Benjamin Linden: 	I have always wanted to do one for the voice chat UI
[15:38]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Indeed. MS spent billions, with the purpose of making people click one more time than normal, for no effect.
[15:39]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Bwahaha.
[15:39]	Malbers Linden: 	for legal CYA
[15:39]	Benjamin Linden: 	and to explain the design rationale behind the Communicate window
[15:39]	Charlette Proto: 	windows7 initiative is quite impressive and we could learn a few things from MS in relation to viewer
[15:39]	Aimee Trescothick: 	so, the new innovation is that they tried to copy the OS X dock and make it more ugly?
[15:39]	McCabe Maxsted would be really interested in reading that 	McCabe Maxsted would be really interested in reading that
[15:40]	Benjamin Linden: 	oh yes, I have seen this larger task bar
[15:40]	Charlette Proto: 	I wouldn't say that OSX is a pain in my eyes
[15:40]	Benjamin Linden: 	it's very dock-like
[15:40]	Aimee Trescothick: 	I'm not say OSX is lol
[15:40]	McCabe Maxsted: 	I can see how it sort of naturally fit together, looking back on earlier code
[15:40]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hehe yeah
[15:41]	Aimee Trescothick: 	"We really want the dock, but we'd rather sue them more than they sue us"
[15:42]	Benjamin Linden: 	lol
[15:42]	Benjamin Linden: 	I'm not actually using Vista yet
[15:42]	McCabe Maxsted: 	oh my. It's a trip, haha
[15:42]	McCabe Maxsted: 	once you get over that first "ooh pretty" hour
[15:42]	Benjamin Linden: 	I just didn't see the value in going through the upgrade hassle
[15:43]	McCabe Maxsted: 	you wonder "didn't this used to take less than thirty seconds to run?"
[15:43]	McCabe Maxsted: 	I love love LOVE the vista explorer though
[15:43]	McCabe Maxsted: 	very useful UI choice
[15:44]	Morgaine Dinova: 	If you're into music making, it's a trip into yesteryear. DPC latency in Vista is 20 times longer than in XP, 1,000 us instead of 50 us ... a disaster for many realtime apps like synths, as it directly contributes to audio latency.
[15:45]	Charlette Proto: 	woot, I don't get the peeps who don't like vista, heaps of it is very good, eg context based configuration of many things
[15:45]	McCabe Maxsted: 	on the subject of notifications though: have you guys made any progress since the prototype demonstration?
[15:45]	Geneko Nemeth doesn't even know Deferred Procedure Call exists 	Geneko Nemeth doesn't even know Deferred Procedure Call exists
[15:45]	StarSong Bright: 	ben you asked what info you were not giving, the ability to have some of those blue boxes disappear and go to main chat text would be the big one for me, friends online notificiatiosn (i keep it off i have too many friends and ti drives me spare), payments to and from and inventory given and received. i would like to see all that in my main chatlog. makes it easier to figure thigns out, particularly if it gives deatils like "you gave Benjamin Linden inventory item "this cool thing i made for you".
[15:46]	Charlette Proto: 	I'm thinking of user tasks not latency myself and really never see the evidence for claims like that Morgaine, my sound in vista is more than good
[15:46]	StarSong Bright: 	that is info you CANNOT get in the transaction log on the www
[15:46]	McCabe Maxsted: 	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-9797 jacek agrees with you on that star ;)
[15:47]	Malbers Linden: 	McCabe, there has been lots of progress on updating/improving the notifications plumbing
[15:47]	Charlette Proto: 	I agree with Star Chat is the best place to display process notifications
[15:47]	StarSong Bright: 	heh its got my vote jacek
[15:48]	Aimee Trescothick: 	the new plumbing hit trunk yesterday :)
[15:48]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Charlette: you need tools to measure it ... perceptually users just see more dropouts when recording and running virtual instruments. I might have the link somewhere.
[15:48]	Benjamin Linden: 	so should we show them onscreen but then also copy it to chat?
[15:48]	Benjamin Linden: 	hi Squirrel!
[15:48]	Benjamin Linden: 	long time no see!
[15:48]	Squirrel Wood: 	Hellos!
[15:48]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hiya Squirrel!
[15:48]	Squirrel Wood: 	Aye
[15:48]	McCabe Maxsted: 	ahoy squirrel :)
[15:48]	Malbers Linden: 	hey squirrel
[15:48]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hm
[15:48]	StarSong Bright: 	i would like it to be a preference maybe... so i can disable as many of those blue boxes as possible.... i really loathe them in general
[15:49]	StarSong Bright: 	hi squirrel
[15:49]	Squirrel Wood: 	I've literally just come to spam http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRlUD0tb9z4 here today :p
[15:49]	Squirrel Wood: 	bookmark for later watching
[15:49]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Charlette: I don't have any MS box fired up at the moment, but I'll try to google it for you.
[15:49]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Then I'll spam back: http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/253
[15:49]	Charlette Proto: 	Morg I'm thinking of common peeps and what they do and sure performance may be not quite there I agree
[15:49]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Is what we were talking...
[15:49]	Charlette Proto: 	put some good YouTube in as well please
[15:50]	McCabe Maxsted: 	it would be nice if they were consistent, i.e. all in chat or all in notifications; duplicating notifications in chat is handy for logging events
[15:50]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Charlette: kk, I'm not talking about common peeps, but musicians. They're not common, they're nuts :P
[15:50]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Oh right! I forgot this "should be notification but not" - screenshots!
[15:50]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yes, logging is nice. (Even though it makes cleaning up transcripts a bit harder...)
[15:50]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Logging notifications in chat, that is.
[15:51]	Charlette Proto: 	dialigs for interactions only but notifications and process records in chat only
[15:51]	Jacek Antonelli makes a note to self to have all chat notifications prefixed with ">>" or something to signify that they're not really chat. 	Jacek Antonelli makes a note to self to have all chat notifications prefixed with ">>" or something to signify that they're not really chat.
[15:51]	McCabe Maxsted: 	oooh
[15:51]	McCabe Maxsted: 	good idea
[15:51]	Geneko Nemeth: 	But then you could have an object named >> and...
[15:51]	Squirrel Wood: 	yarr. my chat usually fills up with notifications of who logged on or off
[15:51]	McCabe Maxsted: 	they'd be a different color though
[15:52]	Benjamin Linden: 	what about the placement of notifications onscreen, preferences?
[15:52]	Geneko Nemeth: 	And don't we already have this guy named Second Life sending us notifications?
[15:52]	Squirrel Wood: 	when you have 150+ friends it can be quite teh nasty
[15:52]	Charlette Proto: 	true
[15:52]	Charlette Proto: 	but you can turn it off
[15:53]	Charlette Proto: 	maybe default should be off
[15:53]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hrm, I've always preferred detachable windows; default to one corner, then let me drag you wherever; that's a personal preference thing though
[15:53]	Squirrel Wood: 	See, I don't want to turn it of as it provides useful info. but a separate "list" would be cool
[15:54]	Squirrel Wood: 	And when will we get "last online" for the friend list so we can clean out the dead accounts ?
[15:54]	StarSong Bright: 	nods to squirrel it gets ridiculous thats true
[15:54]	McCabe Maxsted: 	should there be a difference between "popups" and "notifications"?
[15:54]	Squirrel Wood: 	You have it for group member lists already so the code is there
[15:54]	Geneko Nemeth don't talk to anyone in the friend list :< 	Geneko Nemeth don't talk to anyone in the friend list :<
[15:54]	StarSong Bright: 	wish there was a way to organize firends so i could decide who i cared to see ws online, maybe the danged blue boxes wouldnt annoy me so much... that that is discussion for antoher day i think
[15:55]	Morgaine Dinova: 	It's just like audio, lots of inputs, a master mixed output, and filters (kinda like mixer volume knobs) for finer content control.
[15:56]	McCabe Maxsted: 	I'm looking through the popup list now... wondering why if we make notifications more interractive we'd need them
[15:56]	Squirrel Wood: 	Be creative and rock Second Life ^^
[15:57]	Morgaine Dinova: 	McCabe: I see them in terms of events ... whether there's a handler that turns it into a popup or notification is just a local decision that each use can customize by changing the handler.
[15:57]	Benjamin Linden: 	hmm this is weird
[15:57]	Charlette Proto: 	hey make Second Life™ like Reason with patch cords etc to rig your own system together
[15:57]	Benjamin Linden: 	oh nm I figured it out
[15:57]	Squirrel Wood: 	VST ?
[15:58]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hehe. Well that would make the musicians happy :-)
[15:58]	Charlette Proto: 	or better MaxMSP a diagram of everything including rendering and all other options
[15:58]	Malbers Linden: 	I generally agree w/ Morgaine -- transmit data from the server & let the client decide how to visualize it.
[15:58]	Benjamin Linden: 	what do you mean McCabe
[15:58]	Squirrel Wood: 	let the client tell the server what info it wants first though
[15:58]	Benjamin Linden: 	about popups
[15:58]	Geneko Nemeth: 	The popups seems to be responses to interactions, while notifications is a prompt for interaction or acknowledgement...
[15:58]	Squirrel Wood: 	so you can leave out what is not required
[15:58]	Squirrel Wood: 	and thus reduce bandwidth
[15:59]	McCabe Maxsted nods. I'm on there as well malbers. Just thinking about how the viewer could possibly interract with the messages 	McCabe Maxsted nods. I'm on there as well malbers. Just thinking about how the viewer could possibly interract with the messages
[15:59]	Charlette Proto: 	sorry
[15:59]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Squirrel++ ... YES! We definitely need more "Do not send X" capabilities --- I want that for scalability at events.
[15:59]	McCabe Maxsted: 	well returning an object could easily be a notification with a check box; one less ui component for people to get used to
[15:59]	Squirrel Wood: 	awg or pyogp is working on capabilities methinks
[16:00]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Ie. a more configurable interest list, not just for objects for for everything.
[16:00]	Benjamin Linden: 	alright folks we're out of time today, seems like it flew by
[16:00]	Squirrel Wood: 	Zero & Co should know more about that
[16:00]	Squirrel Wood: 	keep flying ^^
[16:00]	Geneko Nemeth: 	But you're not hee for one whole hour yet!
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehe
[16:00]	Squirrel Wood: 	but try not to crash land ^^
[16:00]	McCabe Maxsted grins 	McCabe Maxsted grins
[16:00]	Benjamin Linden: 	Jacek, McCabe, sounds like you may have gotten some good ideas for your viewer :-)
[16:00]	Geneko Nemeth: 	*here
[16:01]	Benjamin Linden: 	I know, pile on the guilt :-)
[16:01]	Squirrel Wood: 	and for those interested in terraforming sims... my terraformer's up for sale. :p
[16:01]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Zero's not interested, or wasn't last year. Although maybe Zero Mk II after his 4-months of chatting with the CEO might be different, I'll bring it up again :-)
[16:01]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehehe
[16:01]	Charlette Proto: 	Benj you get the blame for everything today
[16:01]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Care for passing advertisement fliers, squirrel?
[16:01]	Malbers Linden: 	oooooh. where did I see info on your terraformer Squirrel?
[16:01]	Benjamin Linden: 	lol oh jeeze
[16:01]	Benjamin Linden: 	ok thanks everybody!
[16:01]	Squirrel Wood: 	its on xstreetsl
[16:01]	Benjamin Linden: 	take care...
[16:01]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Take care Benjamin!
[16:01]	Geneko Nemeth: 	:<
[16:01]	McCabe Maxsted: 	take care ben
[16:01]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Cya Benjamin!
[16:01]	Squirrel Wood: 	and I have that youtube video
[16:02]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Cee ya then!
[16:02]	Squirrel Wood: 	and Torley knows about it
[16:02]	Malbers Linden: 	that's what I saw -- the video
[16:02]	Charlette Proto: 	byee Benjamin
[16:02]	Squirrel Wood: 	Have a grrrreat week!
[16:02]	Malbers Linden: 	thanks everyone.
[16:02]	Aimee Trescothick waves 	Aimee Trescothick waves
[16:02]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Mrrr... too bad I can't go to Torley's office hours anymore...
[16:02]	Malbers Linden: 	send out info on each week's topic
[16:02]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Thanks Malbers
[16:02]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Thank you for coming too, Malbers.
[16:03]	Malbers Linden: 	I come if I have time and see an intersting topic
[16:03]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Why can't you Gen?
[16:03]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Will do