Open Source Meeting/2010-06-01

== Transcript ==
[13:59]	Robin Cornelius: 	ah ok
[14:01]	Merov Linden: 	Hello
[14:01]	Robin Cornelius: 	Hi Merov
[14:01]	Ardy Lay: 	Hello Merov
[14:01]	Aleric Inglewood: 	--Oz for being late :)
[14:02]	Drew Dwi: 	anyone else seeing unable to find this region on http://slurl.com/secondlife/Hippotropollis/
[14:02]	Merov Linden: 	Just wanted to say that I've a hard stop at 3pm again this week
[14:02]	Ardy Lay: 	Spelld wrong
[14:02]	Ardy Lay: 	:-)
[14:02]	Drew Dwi: 	ah
[14:02]	Oz Linden: 	I'll have to find a "pushups" animation to do penance
[14:03]	Aleric Inglewood: 	Like that? :)
[14:03]	Oz Linden: 	They just changed the region so that I own it... there may have been unintended side effects
[14:03]	Calcite Serendipity: 	This parcel is owned by Liana
[14:03]	Merov Linden: 	back, sorry, was pinged on another channel
[14:04]	Drew Dwi: 	the region not parcel
[14:04]	Merov Linden: 	so, agenda: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source_Meeting/Agenda
[14:04]	Oz Linden: 	yes, still have to get individual parcel ownership fixed
[14:04]	Merov Linden: 	Update: I'm busy like some others around here with 1.x port to 2.0
[14:05]	Merov Linden: 	it's moving but more slowly I'd like
[14:05]	Merov Linden: 	if you have commit access (wink wink nudge nidge), please don't wait for me to do the commit!
[14:05]	Merov Linden: 	I hate to be the bottle neck here
[14:06]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	I did a search for "Hippo" a while back and this regine poped up.
[14:06]	Merov Linden: 	that being said, thanks a lot for the patches some of you provided, I've been committing a bunch in the last week
[14:06]	Merov Linden: 	so this is moving but not as fast on the "big" features
[14:06]	Robin Cornelius: 	i've been tied up with snow-169 which distracted me a lot, thats now a potential greifing vector as well
[14:06]	Viewer crash: 	LLViewerImage::doLoadedCallbacks: ASSERT (mRawImage.notNull())
[14:07]	Merov Linden 	checks that JIRA
[14:08]	Merov Linden: 	Hmmm... this is somewhat linked to SNOW-688 (from a 2.0 perspective)
[14:08]	Port of 	lltexturefetch changes to SG 2.0 : Stability and performance of texture fetching
[14:08]	Merov Linden: 	are you working solely in 1.4 at that point Robin?
[14:08]	Merov Linden: 	on that particular bug I mean
[14:09]	Robin Cornelius: 	yes, 2.0 has a patch for that bug but implemented in a backwards incompatable way without major changes
[14:09]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	I think SNOW-169 was fixed on 2.0 because it was triggerning on atlased textures.
[14:09]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	at least that what the comment there says
[14:10]	Merov Linden: 	could be
[14:11]	Merov Linden: 	I've a vague suspiscion that the symptom is absent of 2.0 but the disease is still around
[14:12]	Robin Cornelius: 	there is checking that the texture being used is a downloaded texture which is what stopps the crash
[14:12]	Merov Linden: 	I think the disease has been identified by Aleric in SNOW-593 and SNOW-596
[14:12]	An API 	to wrap objects for thread-safe access.
[14:12]	APR memory 	pool used in an error prone way
[14:13]	Robin Cornelius: 	this error is not racing
[14:13]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	heh
[14:13]	Merov Linden: 	If we want to burn brain cells and get big bangs from our efforts, that'd be something to work on
[14:14]	Techwolf Lupindo 	points to Aleric.
[14:14]	Aleric Inglewood: 	I worked on 596 some more
[14:14]	Merov Linden: 	the only possible outcome would be better perf and better stability... not to mention better understanding of the code
[14:14]	Merov Linden: 	I'd love to spend time on them but I *really* want to get an official SG 2.0 out before
[14:15]	Merov Linden: 	I feel guilty each time I do something else...
[14:15]	Aleric Inglewood: 	I currently have something that compiles and and even runs if I disable one assert.
[14:15]	WolfPup Lowenhar: 	thx to my network acting up i missed 15 min on the meeting
[14:16]	Aleric Inglewood: 	But there are problems with LLSocket still, and non of the plugins work anymore :/... I also currently have the problem (that assert) that a subpool is being freed by a different thread than the owner of the parent pool.
[14:16]	Merov Linden: 	np Aleric, I'm mentioning those bugs not to put pressure on you really, rather to get others to look into this as well
[14:16]	Robin Cornelius: 	ok, that is true we probably should try to get a SG2.0 out but i really still don't want these 1.4 issues to get forgotton, there is still a place for it
[14:17]	Aleric Inglewood: 	I hope someone will help me test it as soon as I'm satisfied myself - or maybe sooner, when I get stuck :p
[14:17]	Merov Linden: 	he :)
[14:17]	WolfPup Lowenhar 	< is currently useing a modified SG2.0
[14:17]	Merov Linden: 	Woot!
[14:18]	Merov Linden: 	Oz, those SNOW-688 and related bugs are things you should peak into
[14:18]	Merov Linden: 	very interesting stuff... and awesome work from Aleric in there
[14:19]	Merov Linden: 	not really next but interesting issue too: SNOW-77
[14:19]	S3 map 	shows main grid map even when on the beta grid
[14:19]	Oz Linden: 	I'll have a look
[14:19]	Merov Linden: 	So, I looked at Thickbrick'a patch and created 2 new one (one for 1.4, one for 2.0)
[14:20]	Merov Linden: 	Thickbrick did some of the same work :/
[14:20]	Merov Linden: 	ooops...
[14:20]	Aleric Inglewood: 	merov: you said SNOW-688 to Oz, is that what you meant?
[14:21]	Merov Linden: 	anywho, did we have news from Geyeda?
[14:21]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	(merov, my patch for 2.0 also has the unit test for LLWorldMipmap ported to 2.0 and re-enabled)
[14:21]	Robin Cornelius: 	WRT SNOW-77 are we still using a cap or has it moved to the login response?
[14:21]	Merov Linden: 	Aleric: I said to Oz to look at that record, I linked it to your proposal for APR and Thread safety
[14:21]	Aleric Inglewood: 	Ah I see that it mentions 593/596 too, under 'Issue Links'
[14:22]	Merov Linden: 	so it's a one stop shoping
[14:22]	Merov Linden: 	yes
[14:22]	Merov Linden: 	Robin: I discussed with folks internally and they prefer a login response but apparently OpenSim forlks prefer a cap
[14:23]	Merov Linden: 	so my and Thickbrock's patch are sort of overkill "both" soluton
[14:23]	Robin Cornelius: 	hmm John, i saw something you said on IRC regarding that? i thought you now wanted a login response?
[14:24]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Thickbrick, is that unit test encapulated with an "if (LL_TEST)"?
[14:24]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	(will check, Techwolf)
[14:24]	Merov Linden: 	It seems more adequate to me to use a login response as the notion of map is not a region issue, it's an issue for a grid or a set of regions
[14:25]	Robin Cornelius: 	i'm sure thats what Johnn said too, and he is doing the opensim side
[14:25]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	it "may" be per-region if the regions are not on the same grid
[14:25]	Eddy Stryker: 	i'm fine with the login response only
[14:25]	Robin Cornelius: 	oh hpergrid?
[14:25]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	s/LL_TEST/LL_TESTS
[14:25]	Merov Linden: 	if they are not on the same grid Thickbrick, what is a map?
[14:25]	Merov Linden: 	map means geometrical relationship between regions
[14:26]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	yeah... I'm kind of not clear oh what is going on with VWRAP, so no argument for mme on that.
[14:26]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	*on what is...,
[14:26]	Eddy Stryker: 	thickbrick: in vwrap, each region domain has a single coherent coordinate system of virtual space (that can be mapped)
[14:26]	Eddy Stryker: 	so you only need that url once for each region domain
[14:26]	Merov Linden: 	well, I certainly can commit a frankenstein patch, it's not that big
[14:27]	Merov Linden: 	so that OpenSim folks can experiment at least and see what makes sense
[14:27]	Eddy Stryker: 	whatever will get a binary published that i can develop against
[14:27]	Merov Linden: 	their problem is getting a viewer binary supporting this so they can move forward
[14:27]	Merov Linden: 	kinx! :)
[14:27]	Merov Linden: 	jinx!
[14:28]	Eddy Stryker: 	:-p
[14:28]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	so we drop the capability and just use the login response from 2.0.2?
[14:28]	Harrison Partch: 	that was inappropriate
[14:28]	Merov Linden: 	we need to hear from Geyeda though...
[14:29]	Merov Linden: 	Thickbrick: I was suggesting having both for the moment
[14:29]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	ok
[14:29]	Merov Linden: 	k, next topic: SL7B
[14:29]	Merov Linden: 	party! :)
[14:29]	WolfPup Lowenhar: 	wonders if SG can log onto the OSgrid?
[14:30]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	it can, but it tends to crash
[14:30]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Is there any neat way to repersent source code in a 3D world?
[14:30]	Merov Linden: 	WolfPup: I've been told that SG1.4 can, not 2.0 though
[14:31]	Merov Linden: 	Ha Techwolf! I've seen a demo of something like that recently
[14:31]	Merov Linden 	checks for a link
[14:32]	Merov Linden: 	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxsK8hpNPjk&feature=player_embedded
[14:33]	Aleric Inglewood 	left the meta7 grid team again by the way.... it is impossible to work together with their main coder :/.
[14:33]	Aleric Inglewood: 	Wasted several weeks of work there :(
[14:33]	Merov Linden: 	sorry to hear that Aleric
[14:34]	Merov Linden: 	OS leads need to learn to let go of their ego... it's a difficult skill... :)
[14:34]	Merov Linden: 	so, back to SL7B: news? are we on? should we start worry about content?
[14:35]	Aleric Inglewood: 	I have the highest respect for the Lindens here and how they deal with the random rants and misbehaviors (guess that has to be said once ;).
[14:35]	Robin Cornelius: 	yes worrying about content
[14:35]	Merov Linden: 	how can we help?
[14:36]	Robin Cornelius: 	ideas, posters, textures etc
[14:36]	Merov Linden: 	don't count on me on building things though, I'm *terrible* at that :(
[14:36]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	I just watch that video. Would be neat for someone that has access to that prototype sim and build the enitire Snowglobe client like that. :-)
[14:36]	Robin Cornelius: 	i'm not over concerned on building really flash things, but we do need some posters/slide displays
[14:36]	Merov Linden: 	posters, ideas: that's something I can think off an contribute
[14:36]	Robin Cornelius: 	we have a cool snowglobe logo now
[14:37]	Merov Linden: 	that's right about the logo
[14:37]	Merov Linden: 	do you have a new iteration to show?
[14:37]	Merov Linden 	likes eye candies :)
[14:37]	Robin Cornelius: 	to be honest, the spinning logo, some slide displays, some sofas and some pot plans and i think we are good ;-)
[14:38]	Aleric Inglewood: 	What is the objective again?
[14:38]	Techwolf Lupindo 	lol
[14:38]	Ardy Lay: 	Me? No. I haven't changed the one I made any.
[14:38]	Robin Cornelius: 	Aleric, promote snowglobe to users and developers
[14:38]	Robin Cornelius: 	so 2 seperate objectives
[14:38]	Merov Linden 	what Robin said
[14:39]	Aleric Inglewood: 	both difficult
[14:39]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	Robin, I think I can help with building some, but probably not in making the textual content.
[14:39]	Merov Linden: 	I'm making my goal to get SG2.0 by then...
[14:39]	Robin Cornelius: 	some of it is awareness, there are probaly lots of users out there who just don't know about snowglobe, lots attend Sl7B who will not come near places like that
[14:39]	Robin Cornelius: 	*this
[14:40]	Robin Cornelius: 	developers is way more tricky
[14:40]	Robin Cornelius: 	you never know we might snag some one who is a C++ dev new to SL who has not been poached by emerald yet ;-p
[14:40]	Merov Linden: 	also meet and greet other TPV devs, we are not their competitor really :)
[14:40]	Aleric Inglewood: 	emerald is a weird bunch of ex-script kids :/
[14:41]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Emerald has a checkered past with there dev.
[14:41]	Merov Linden: 	:o
[14:41]	Aleric Inglewood: 	I don't think we are really concurrents (is that the right word?)
[14:41]	Robin Cornelius: 	I know many other TVP developers but a meet and greet will be good
[14:41]	Aleric Inglewood: 	competitors
[14:41]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	I think, especially for developers, we need to emphasize the open aspect of SG development - I think a lot of people think it's a closed process because they don't know the process to get involved.
[14:41]	Merov Linden: 	I'd like to see more TPV folks rebasing from the most recent set of SG trunks
[14:42]	Merov Linden: 	i.e 1.4 and 2.0
[14:42]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	The contruber agreement is a big put off.
[14:42]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	For GPL coders.
[14:42]	Robin Cornelius: 	Imrpudence is pretty much based of SG now, but they also have some 2.0 features directly back ported
[14:42]	Merov Linden: 	that's fine by me
[14:43]	Robin Cornelius: 	you can thank them for the SNOW-169 repro as well ;-)
[14:43]	Robin Cornelius: 	wripping apart wright plaza to find the offending prim, then exporting it to an isolated location
[14:44]	Ardy Lay: 	Is SNOW-493 "on the RADAR" currently?
[14:44]	check for 	buffer overflow, then read buffer regardless
[14:44]	Aleric Inglewood: 	I understand that SL7B is not aimed at any group in particular, but rather at every SL user. So, imho, the chance that a developer walks by who we want as coder is like 1 in 100,000. It would be a waste of time to even think about that :/. It's better to let them find us the usual way: a bug -> Google --> source --> wiki --> irc --> us.
[14:44]	Robin Cornelius: 	oh meh yes, that needs fixing too, Kirsten did the fix for 2.0 but its more a case of doing it than anything difficult
[14:44]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	re:493. I'me tempted to do a basic s/// there and see what happends when I test it on my system.
[14:45]	Oz Linden: 	SL7B focus should really be on users
[14:45]	Ardy Lay: 	Robin, I kinda hammerd that into SG1.4 and am running it now but don't have a repro to check against.
[14:45]	Oz Linden: 	if we happen to be found by a potential developer that way, that will take care of itself
[14:46]	Robin Cornelius: 	Aleric i kind of agree, we don't want to waste too much time going in to deep detail over contributing to snowglobe, but i think it is important even for users to understand what we are about and how the community contributes, that would be enough for an interested developer to ask/seek more nfo
[14:46]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	there's a spectrum between "user" and "developer" and I think anybody who is willing to move just a little bit towards "developer" on that spectrum is an important resource
[14:46]	Robin Cornelius: 	Ardy, its a greifer attack vector, i saw it hanging at welcome areas, waiting for a griefer hud attack, don't think i have the asset UUIDs for the bad anims,
[14:46]	Oz Linden: 	Propminently mention that it is open source, and GPL;, and why that is a good thing
[14:47]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	That's why I'me thinking on something intresting to look at visially to attract folks walking by on the change that a devoloper is checking the place out. Then they can learn more from there.
[14:47]	lufpleh Obstreperous:	snowglobe needs a hook/feature that users want, emerald has the features therefore the users
[14:47]	Merov Linden: 	on SNOW-493: please feel free to commit to 1.4 Robin
[14:48]	Ardy Lay: 	Robin, okay. I spend my nights near the Ahern Infohub so maybe I'll get "tested".
[14:48]	Merov Linden: 	and 2.0 wile youre at it
[14:48]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Do we have any word about taking snowglobe 1.x to pure GPL to help attract GPL coders?
[14:48]	Robin Cornelius: 	mWorkQueue.push_back(more_work)
[14:48]	Merov Linden: 	Techwolf: that's an idea we never discussed really, did we?
[14:49]	Aleric Inglewood: 	It is like someone else said (though ment for LL then): it is impossible to compete with an opensource downstream. Emerald does base their (new) version on SG 1.4, and will then move to SG 2.1. So, if THEY have the "colored icons" that the users want, then what do we have? If we have stability and a high FPS, then so do they. We cannot compete with them. Actually, we shouldn't even want that. Since they based their viewer on SG, we won.
[14:49]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	It was touch uppon a few weeks back, but would be nice to have a posision on that for SL7B
[14:49]	Robin Cornelius: 	Its getting to the stage now that any commits to 1.X could not be copied to 2.X because its so different
[14:49]	Merov Linden: 	but anyhow, it's GPL already...
[14:50]	Robin Cornelius: 	its kind of one way GPL though
[14:50]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Its GPL allready, but can't commit GPL code to it.
[14:50]	Robin Cornelius: 	anyone can fork
[14:50]	Merov Linden: 	but I suppose you're talking about us hosting the svn repo and build the binaries
[14:50]	Robin Cornelius: 	but LL can't pull back in patches without hoops due to the CLA, so LL loose out really
[14:51]	Merov Linden: 	we never loose if our residents win :)
[14:51]	Merov Linden: 	but, yeah, we might not be able to pull the patch in the official viewer
[14:51]	Merov Linden: 	without a properly filled CLA
[14:51]	Robin Cornelius: 	but as i said 2.0 is now so different the patch would have to be rewritten from a 1.X branch anyway
[14:51]	Aleric Inglewood: 	Yes, .. the fact that LL wants to keep a propietary version makes it impossible to treat SG as GPL :/... For example, we can't import bug fixes or VERY nice features from other TPVs
[14:52]	Merov Linden: 	like? "soft body" physics?
[14:52]	Merov Linden: 	OTR?
[14:53]	Merov Linden: 	others?
[14:53]	Robin Cornelius: 	Grid manager
[14:53]	Eddy Stryker: 	grid manager would be really nice in SG
[14:54]	Aleric Inglewood: 	Well, not thinking about anything in particular.... but ... re SLB7, if you want to sell SG to users then you'll have a hard time explaining to them why we'll never add the boob physics or OTR ;p
[14:54]	Merov Linden: 	radar also though that's one we don't look at nicely... (spams the sims like crazy...)
[14:54]	Eddy Stryker: 	i've switched to imprudence for my server development because there is no sane way of managing multiple grids with snowglobe
[14:54]	Robin Cornelius: 	hmm? how does the radar spam the sims? it uses data the sim already sends out for coarse location updates?
[14:54]	Robin Cornelius: 	its got to be better than loads of LSL radars
[14:55]	Eddy Stryker: 	before i was creating a dozen different snowglobe shortcuts on my desktop, but it got out of hand quickly and the grid manager in imprudence and other open source viewers is a much more pleasant way of handling things
[14:55]	Aleric Inglewood: 	Eddy: I thought that 1.4 has a reasonable patch for that? You can just login to any grid / account with one click.
[14:56]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	there's a few bugs with it
[14:56]	Eddy Stryker: 	alternatively, if VWRAP development in the viewer picks up again we could do it all web-based with VWRAP launch document support in snowglobe, but i've given up hope of that happening in the next few months. grid manager seems more realistic
[14:56]	Merov Linden: 	What feature in particular Eddy? 1.4 has a drop down for login that allow to switch between grids and identities
[14:56]	Robin Cornelius: 	its a PITA to add new grids or update loginuris
[14:57]	Eddy Stryker: 	aleric: if so i haven't seen it. everything in snowglobe made it more difficult to use multiple grids, specifically the "save grid information based on a first and last name that is probably the same on 90% of all grids, and will override the command line option i passed" feature
[14:57]	Eddy Stryker: 	merov: that drop down has never worked. it's based off a hardcoded xml file that ships with the viewer and limits the number of characters you can type in
[14:58]	Merov Linden: 	Well, there's a SNOW-670 record to cover the port of the feature from 1.x to 2.0
[14:58]	Port of 	SNOW-129 to SG 2.0 : Select account from list at login
[14:58]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Eddy, "Patch welcome"
[14:58]	Robin Cornelius: 	to get around that i just add a --loginuri option which inserts a new entry to the dropdown list, then you can add your user name/pass for that grid, if you login it then remembers the lot
[14:58]	Aleric Inglewood: 	Yes it is... When I worked on that, I had the idea that the internal devs (ake, LL in general) wouldn't like it if we turned SG into a full fletched multi-grid supporting viewer... it would cause people to stream away from here if they can learn SL here and then visit other grids from a drop down and three clicks.
[14:58]	Merov Linden: 	that's a good place to comment and propose improvements
[14:58]	Eddy Stryker: 	techwolf: it's already done, it's called Grid Manager
[14:58]	Robin Cornelius: 	i don't combine --loginuri with autologin though
[14:58]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Sadly, I've gotten that responce before.
[14:58]	Aleric Inglewood: 	(Yes it is == a pita to add a new grid)
[14:59]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-557
[14:59]	loginuri ignored 	when host part is identical to previously saved login.
[14:59]	Oz Linden: 	We believe that SL can compete just fine for users
[14:59]	Merov Linden: 	note however that if you add a patch there, please don't do it by taking "inspiration" from a non submitted patch: it's tempting but really uncool :/
[15:00]	Merov Linden: 	better try to reach out to Imprudence folks and beg them to contribute a patch to SG under the CLA
[15:00]	Eddy Stryker: 	it's not their patch
[15:00]	Robin Cornelius: 	the problem is there are so many people who hav contributed to that patch, there is no singler owner anymore
[15:00]	Eddy Stryker: 	it was developed for the hippo viewer originally, not sure who wrote the code (and how many people were involved)
[15:01]	Merov Linden: 	time check: ut's 3pm and I need to go unfortunately
[15:01]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	I think the login manager patch is floating around for too long for it to have a single (or few) know author
[15:01]	Oz Linden: 	me too
[15:01]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	That why there is the GPL.
[15:01]	Oz Linden: 	the train won't wait
[15:01]	Merov Linden: 	not their patch, hmmm....
[15:01]	Oz Linden: 	One quick announcement... I've set up office hours
[15:02]	Merov Linden: 	need to be researched though, we don't steal code
[15:02]	Aleric Inglewood: 	Oz: will we see you on IRC soon?
[15:02]	Oz Linden: 	I'm there now
[15:02]	Aleric Inglewood: 	Ok, stay there :)
[15:02]	Aleric Inglewood: 	it
[15:02]	Merov Linden 	considers his 2 weekly Hippo meetings are his OH...
[15:02]	Aleric Inglewood: 	It's THE point of contact for everyone involved with OS
[15:02]	Oz Linden: 	We'll see... if it's a net distraction, I won't stay
[15:03]	Merov Linden: 	I have a "hell" of a time to get connection on that IRC channel... :(
[15:03]	Oz Linden: 	See you all soon -- bye for now
[15:03]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Why efnet and not freenode?
[15:03]	WolfPup Lowenhar: 	oz when are you ofice hours?
[15:03]	Merov Linden: 	well, need to go: please keep 2.0 patch coming! :)
[15:03]	Aleric Inglewood: 	yes, moving to freenode would make a lot of sense.
[15:03]	Oz Linden: 	I'll post a note to opensourcedev
[15:04]	Aleric Inglewood: 	bye!
[15:04]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	MErov, having you on IRC for quick questions will help
[15:04]	Merov Linden: 	I know Thickbrick
[15:04]	Aleric Inglewood: 	merov: you really only have to read to lines prepended with your nick name on IRC.
[15:04]	Merov Linden: 	I've no problem from home , only from the office....
[15:04]	Aleric Inglewood: 	s/to//
[15:04]	WolfPup Lowenhar: 	im in #awg on freenod and in #opensl
[15:04]	Merov Linden: 	cheers
 
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