Open Source Meeting/2010-07-13

== Agenda Tuesday, 13 July 2010 ==
# Weekly Snowglobe update - Merov Linden
## Monday's merge (viewer-external > Snowglobe 2 trunk) — is it there, yet?
# What are the status/the plans for Arabic language support? (, ) (For Chat/IM/Note Cards, etc., not necessarily translated UI)
#* Issues are right-to-left and ligatures
#* Same issues affect other languages, too (See this jira comment for major right-to-left ones. There's much more depending on ligatures, I guess.)
#* Can/should we port/re-implement the old patches to use pango for text rendering? ()
# Your topic here!
If we run out of topics before the end of the meeting, we'll triage Snowglobe or Open Source specific Jira Issues from the list below.
=== Jira Issues ===
# After discussion, r3349 was reverted. Do these still need discussion (e.g. for viewer-external)?:
## Changeset 3349 added unit test to llplugin but forgot LL_TESTS, resulting in a build failure in lltut.cpp
## Tries to build pulseaudio when pulseaudio not found.
## Standalone build failure r3349, cmake error on SLPlugin
## Bulding of integration_tests when not needed
## Notifier Issue Since [sldev-commits] r3349
## (Robin Cornelius)
## Make libllcommon shared for SLPlugin + plugins on 1.4
## Ready to commit (Aleric Inglewood)
## idem
# Unscheduled SNOW issues triage: would be good to go with the community through those and decide for some what we should take immediately (2.0 or 1.4) or later.
If you think an issue warrants a deeper discussion, please add it as topic to one of the agendas above.
== Transcript ==
[14:01]	:	hey Merov :)
[14:01]	:	hi guys
[14:01]	:	I see some folks added things to the agenda, thatnks
[14:02]	:	it's 2pm so I think we should start
[14:02]	:	about the merge: we did have a successsful full cycle on build off TeamCity for Snowglobe 2.x trunk
[14:02]	:	good
[14:03]	:	im building in windows 7 32-bitwith no problems i just wish while i building in in release mode in vs2005 i could turn on all the test so it woud not take me nearly 2 hours to do so
[14:03]	:	kewl
[14:03]	:	I'm still struggling with errors on the 1.x trunk though (erors when packaging the Mac build)
[14:04]	:	also the export to viewer-external (i.e. the build of viewer-public) on TeamCity does seem to work too
[14:04]	:	since I haven't seen anyone raising a red flag on my proposal to merge
[14:04]	 	checks the opensource-dev list rapidly
[14:05]	:	ok, none this morning either
[14:05]	:	merov getting emails about every 10 min say buid successful for about an 8 hr block
[14:05]	:	yay
[14:05]	:	so I'll go ahead with that big commit merge
[14:06]	:	so is svn or hg more up to date now?
[14:06]	:	so tomarrow will be the start of building 2.1 snowglobe?
[14:06]	:	WolfPup: I receive those too and it's due to the fact I rebuild some branches often right now
[14:06]	:	trying to fix scripts
[14:06]	:	oh ok
[14:06]	:	so when is the switch to hg?
[14:07]	:	TeamCity is set up in such a way though that it build all 3 platforms at once so you get success notification for the 2 other platforms
[14:07]	:	instead of svn?
[14:07]	:	switch to hg: right after I stabilize the TeamCity build
[14:07]	:	oh ok
[14:07]	:	It's not going to be a fun activity (lots of scripts to tweak)
[14:08]	:	but I'd rather bite the bullet and do it now
[14:08]	:	I'm tired of waiting for the "code split" poject to complete
[14:08]	:	code split?
[14:08]	:	it doesn't look like it will anytime soon (or not soon enough...)
[14:09]	:	how far it that project, yet?
[14:09]	:	code split: our internal repo has everything (viewer + server) in one big humongo repo
[14:09]	:	it'd be *much* easier for export if viewer and server were separated
[14:09]	:	oooowwwwwwwwwwwww
[14:09]	:	ideally, we could then just clone the internal viewer"
[14:10]	:	Eventually, that's what we'll do but that code split project is a stumbling block
[14:10]	:	yay!
[14:10]	:	i guess ill have to look at the transscript for this meeting
[14:10]	:	that'll change a lot of things for the better i think
[14:10]	:	actually, it's not a "stumbling block", it's so big it blocks the trail completely....
[14:11]	:	my net being a pain this afternoon
[14:11]	:	th problem is that it involves a big sync with everybody when we do this
[14:11]	:	it's not something I or some isolated bloke can just decide and do
[14:12]	:	they've relied heavy that the llcommon, llxml, etc files will be the same for the viewer and server
[14:12]	:	actually, if you look at it, the "export" script is a way to ensure code split via script
[14:12]	:	does hg support stuff like svn extern?
[14:12]	:	hg has a plugin
[14:12]	:	Latif: I think it does I just can't remember the name on the top of my head
[14:13]	:	plugin? could be...
[14:13]	:	you would still need some common code betwee the server and the viewer, so i was thinking that could be done with some equiv of svn extern
[14:14]	:	ideally, that code code should be built as libs
[14:14]	:	well, there's a lot of base types, base methods (llmath) etc...
[14:15]	:	that's not worth defining an API for those and it's good to have a common code base for all of this
[14:15]	:	yeah
[14:15]	:	k, that was for point 1
[14:15]	:	point 2: arabic language support
[14:16]	:	whoa! interesting i18n issue :)
[14:16]	:	Bidi in UI...
[14:16]	:	I was asked whether open source contributors could implement this, so I thought I'd bring it up here.
[14:16]	:	i was handed a patch for arabic language but i don't know if it fixes anything... looks like it updates the manifest to pull mscv80
[14:17]	:	That's be great to have FLOSS contributions on this
[14:17]	:	Should I ask the resident who asked me to come here? He's online ATM.
[14:17]	:	Hebrew is right to left too and we just happen to have a native speaker in the Snowglobe contributors
[14:17]	:	it was hard for me to communicate with the person
[14:17]	:	Boroondas: sure!
[14:18]	:	trying to find the patch...
[14:18]	:	ill even turn on my translator for him if it might help
[14:19]	:	hi
[14:19]	:	I think Khaled understands English alright.
[14:19]	:	yes
[14:19]	:	hi Khaled
[14:19]	:	i can
[14:20]	:	Hi Khaled
[14:20]	:	hi merov
[14:20]	:	Boroondas told us you are interested in may be contributing to an Arabic support patch?
[14:21]	:	i can tp friend
[14:21]	:	yes
[14:21]	:	Right-to-Left aparently isn't the whole deal, most sequences of single letters have to be converted to matching ligatures (or whatever they're called for Arabic), too.
[14:22]	:	I'm guessing mscv80 has extra support
[14:22]	:	yes
[14:22]	:	So I guess it would be best to resort to a text rendering library that can already do all of that.
[14:22]	:	Ok we can begin :)
[14:23]	:	indeed: no need to reinvent that
[14:23]	:	I do not know however what we use for text chat rendering at the moment
[14:24]	:	I know its Unicode compliant and we use (or should use) UTF-8 encoding all the way
[14:24]	:	a mix of homebrewn and FreeType.
[14:24]	:	aha
[14:24]	:	that we use to arabic
[14:24]	:	(if that's still accurate, might have changed since)
[14:24]	:	UTF-8
[14:25]	:	folks using chinese, japanese and other languages would have told us
[14:25]	:	and all windows versions supported arabic
[14:25]	:	y
[14:25]	:	but bidi creates specific UI challenges, it's not just a problem of supporting the proper glyph rendering
[14:26]	:	Windows is one thing, what about the other OSes?
[14:26]	:	Mac does have ways to render Bidi I'm sure
[14:26]	:	like linux ans mac
[14:26]	:	at VWR-10131 Alissa Sabre has posted a screenshot of a modified viewer using Pango.
[14:26]	:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-10131 [#VWR-10131] Use pango for text rendering
[14:26]	:	Lunix and apple
[14:26]	:	too
[14:27]	:	looks like the characters are there... it's just the direction
[14:27]	:	its all going left to right
[14:28]	:	and the conversion of single characters to ligature glyphes (users don't enter ligatures)
[14:28]	:	usually there is a mode or key to hit to switch direction
[14:28]	:	yeah, that's the Bidi aspect (Bi Directional)
[14:28]	:	sometimes it is automatic with the language of the word typed
[14:28]	:	chat is one thing, what about UI localization though?
[14:29]	:	That can come later, I guess.
[14:29]	:	I guess so too
[14:29]	:	being able to express oneselves with fellow native speakers in the proper language is more important
[14:29]	:	http://alissa-sabre.cocolog-nifty.com/.shared/image.html? /photos/uncategorized/2007/12/12/multilanguage.jpg
[14:30]	:	Khaled, correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think most users are able to read English, but would like to their native language when talking to each other.
[14:30]	:	Khaled, what was that jira issue you showed me
[14:31]	:	Hmmm... Henri is mentioning perf issue with Pango...
[14:31]	:	Does anyone know whether Alissa is still around?
[14:31]	:	this is pic for viewer can write in arabic
[14:31]	:	not really... most people in middleast or arabic countries have problems with english
[14:31]	:	anyone with data on this?
[14:31]	:	i tale from http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-112
[14:31]	:	[#VWR-112] Arabic language needs to be displayed right to left rather than left to right
[14:31]	:	I have poor experience with pango in another context.. writing gui apps on linux
[14:31]	:	not yet, I guess (except maybe Alissa?)
[14:31]	:	Most people I encounter in heavily-Japanese sims are not able to read english.
[14:31]	:	nd we always have to translate to them what is being typed
[14:32]	:	ic
[14:32]	:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-112
[14:32]	:	[#VWR-112] Arabic language needs to be displayed right to left rather than left to right
[14:32]	:	Yes, Yes, that one
[14:32]	:	so the UI would have to be translated, too
[14:32]	:	i can do that
[14:32]	:	:-)
[14:32]	:	Yes, indeed,,
[14:32]	:	well, there's quite a bit to read on those 2 JIRAs for sure
[14:33]	:	I'm going to move them to SNOW
[14:33]	:	so that we keep close tabs on them
[14:33]	:	Was the 2.1 merge already discussed?
[14:33]	:	Aleric: yes
[14:34]	:	by the way, could we get some cooperation between CT and Snowglobe/FLOSS?
[14:34]	:	Do I want to know how you solved the water-flicker patch collisions?
[14:34]	:	summary: TeamCity works on viewer-public (to export to viewer-external) and Snowglobe 2.x trunk so I'll commit the merge
[14:35]	:	Do you want to know? Seems like a rethorical question... :)
[14:35]	:	but, yes, I hacked something which, I think works fine
[14:35]	:	that was the trickiest merge conflicts
[14:36]	:	Well, A) You solved the conflict, B) you didn't and it's broken now, C) you started with 2.1 and then merged in snowglobe patches that merged and just left out those that didn't.
[14:36]	:	I'm wary of creating a patch for this as it's *massive*
[14:36]	:	I don't want to know if it's C
[14:37]	:	I did A)
[14:37]	:	Great! :)
[14:37]	:	I do believe I ported water flickering fix correctly
[14:37]	:	:)
[14:37]	:	but I'm just human (not a program)
[14:37]	:	PS As promised two weeks ago.. I did commit SNOW-713 today.
[14:37]	:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-713 [#SNOW-713] Global objects in libllcommon duplicated in plugins
[14:37]	:	that means when it hits the SVN server it is going to be a masive amount of data flow
[14:38]	:	I saw the commit notification fly by
[14:38]	:	and, BTW, I am trying to fix TeamCity for SG1.4 build so that we can all get binaries...
[14:38]	:	Will darwin be broken?
[14:38]	:	right now, it fails on packaging the dmg on Mac
[14:39]	:	nah... it's a stupid dmg creationg issue...
[14:39]	:	What is dmg?
[14:39]	:	deb
[14:39]	:	the installable package for Mac
[14:39]	:	it is like the tarbal in linux
[14:40]	:	another TeamCity breakage is the build of old 1.23 viewers...
[14:40]	:	not something anyone of you can help me with though <sigh/>
[14:40]	:	Hi guys
[14:41]	:	I vote to not worry about 1.23
[14:41]	:	Anyhow, just to let you know that I *know* the 1.4 binaries have not been produced yet and, es, I'm working on it....
[14:41]	:	It works on linux, but I just can't test under windows or Mac. MichelleZ helped with windows and according to Nicky it "works", but he runs into all kinds of problems even without the patch so it's unclear how good it is. I worked on this till the vomitting point and almost literally overworked me on it :/ ... Sorry, but I'm a linux C++ coder, I CANNOT do the parts that are left, including testing windows and fixing windows/Mac :/
[14:41]	:	my roommate can only run 1.23 on the old system they are useing
[14:41]	:	I want this whole TeamCity machinery to be *green*
[14:41]	:	I'm running TeamCity for openmentaverse.org ;)
[14:43]	:	Aleric, I seen on minor bug in the commit allready, tests that was if not standalone was UNifed. I going to add if LL_TESTS to them so one can build with or without the tests.
[14:43]	:	Aleric: you mean that your commit *might* break mac and Windows builds?
[14:44]	:	I have a question: Why the change from parabuild to teamcity?
[14:44]	:	Merov: Did you test it?
[14:44]	:	apparently, Windows SG1.4 went through....
[14:44]	:	Mac is blocking on dmg so the build works....
[14:45]	:	i think my probs are VC versus VS related
[14:45]	:	I haven't tested
[14:45]	:	I've been 100% fixing build script issues since Friday :(
[14:46]	:	(for those curious what teamcity looks like, you can see http://tc.openmetaverse.org/overview.html - click login as guest on the bottom)
[14:46]	:	on 1.4 build
[14:46]	:	Techwolf: that was an ongoing project decided by the build farm folks, company wide
[14:47]	:	I will only say something works when I can test it myself... I'm not the person to work on windows or mac build system stuff :(. I have put *A LOT* of time into this, even installed windows on one of my PC's that required me to erase the existing linux install on it and reinstall that new (needed to free 160 GB) ... but the conclusion just has to be that I cannot test it, and therefore not fix it if it's broken. I did rely on remarks from Nicky that it worked (see the comments for 713). Nobody tested it on Mac.
[14:47]	:	so I had to go with the flow... it's painful right now but I've been promised beautiful summy days and endless felicity after ... (sure...)
[14:48]	:	k, I can buiild on Mac nd smoke test
[14:48]	:	anyone else building on Mac?
[14:48]	:	where's Aimee?
[14:48]	 	points at Toki
[14:48]	:	heheh
[14:48]	:	Hey!
[14:48]	:	:p
[14:48]	:	no, he got a Mac but never build anything (yet) ;)
[14:49]	:	tsk tsk....
[14:49]	:	If somebody gives me a 5-minute run-down on what I'm supposed to do, I probably could.
[14:50]	 	grabs a wiki page
[14:50]	:	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Compiling_the_viewer_%28Mac_OS_X%29
[14:50]	:	there
[14:50]	:	Toki, expect at least half an hour, rather than 5 min
[14:50]	:	I updated those this week so it's all nice and clean and should work...
[14:51]	:	that being said, Oz himself is having trouble building on Mac (he's more a Linux guy so gets lost in XCode)
[14:51]	:	I paid attention going through all the instruction *from scratch* but, still, there are failure cases I haven't captured
[14:52]	:	did he succeed on Linux, yet? (Last week you said he was trying that, didn't you?)
[14:53]	:	erm... on Linux... he has a 64 bits machine and we don't make it easy to build that as you know...
[14:53]	 	face palm
[14:53]	:	I have updated wiki pages too last week. Most notably https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Get_source_and_compile and https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Compiling_the_viewer_(Linux). I added a lot of stuff regarding standalone.
[14:53]	:	All new and shiny :-)
[14:54]	:	If he follows the new and shiny last page now, he should be able to compile it on 64bit.
[14:54]	:	well, at least, Linux 64 builders have an advocate internally :)
[14:54]	:	Merov, for 64-bit, the only two options are standalond build or create a 32-bit chroot and can use normal prebuilts lib build.
[14:54]	:	Darn should of got here earlier .. am running 64bit emerald on Linux
[14:54]	:	true. But once the dependencies are satisfied, building standalone isn't that much of an issue.
[14:55]	:	Okay, there was nothing terribly scary in that wiki page. In fact, it was quite well written.
[14:55]	:	:-)
[14:55]	:	I run 64-bit emerald. Gentoo linux here.
[14:55]	:	Note that while doing this, I ran into a potential probem that I consider to be rather serious :/... If people install 32-bit precompiled stuff from LL (and they very well might!), then that comes with header files. Now, if you compile standalone you shouldn't use those headerfiles, but that DOES happen imho. So, the viewer is build against the wrong headerfiles in that case.
[14:56]	:	It would be helpful to have a deb uploaded to the repos that can be used to grab the right dependencies for standalone
[14:56]	:	just to resolve them
[14:57]	:	For Gentoo users, they can use my overlay and make it into two command lines. One for adding the overlay and one to build the client.
[14:57]	:	could that overlay be included in the repos
[14:57]	:	sorry to back track, but can someone post the url for the wiki page you are talking about please?
[14:57]	:	In 2.0 this no longer seems to be the case... but that is why tut.hpp isn't found unless you install it in /usr/local/include :/ ... I'd think it should find it if you run scripts/install.py tut, but it doesn't. Fixing FindTut.cmake to find would just add back libraries/include and start building against the unwanted library headers again :/
[14:57]	:	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Get_source_and_compile
[14:58]	:	ty
[14:58]	:	Aleric, I think if LL_TEST=FALSE, FIndTut.cmake is not called.
[14:58]	:	If anyone knows why, on standalone, the viewer insists on /usr/local/include/tut.h to exist, or fails to configure - but then goes on to include only <tut/tut.hpp>, please tell me.
[14:59]	:	well, thatnks for updating the Linux build instruction guys
[14:59]	:	Btw., can we get LL_TESTS=TRUE fixed for standalone? Can't hurt to run tests, I guess.
[14:59]	:	I'm still using this method and I'm not having any problem with a full 32bit prebuilt lib compile: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Dzonatas_Sol/Snowglobe #Step-by-Step_32bit_Chroot_Compile
[14:59]	:	Aleric, I'll look into it. What branch and version are you talking about?
[14:59]	:	Techwolf: 1.4 of course ;) (although I keep an eye on 2.0 :/)
[14:59]	:	Boroondas, I just notice it was broken int eh lastest commits on 1.4. I plan on fixing that.
[15:01]	:	Dzontatas: I don't have a problem either.. but it's a fact that standalone CAN be using the wrong header files.
[15:01]	:	linux has a switch for turning off the tests but there is no easy way to do it in windows
[15:01]	:	k, it's 3pm an it looks like I've tons of things to do on TeamCity and 2.x truk commit
[15:01]	:	I also got terribly confused by the fact that the build system downloads lots of libraries - but in the end doesn't use them.... doesn't even install them in the package :/
[15:01]	:	I'll see you guys Thursday, hopefully, we'll have a building Snowglobe 2.1 in trunk by then
 
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