Mesh/Archive/2011-09-12

==Agenda==
# Do you plan to add a "mirrior" button for mesh simmilar to the one that was added late in sculpties? Would be not only useful in creation and uploads but mirriored mesh would be instances and less server stress then a brand new uploaded model. Could even give a reduced PE if its in the same linkset as the non mirriored mesh. Have a mirrior check box and then a X Y Z dropdown box for which axis is mirriored in the features tab or something. [Moo Spyker]
# I filed a jira for the LOD uploader scale problem but cannot find it anymore, has anything been done with that? It is where all LOD's and physics mesh scale up to the match the bounding box of the highest LOD. It's a pain because every LOD and physics must maintain the EXACT bounding box to avoid stretching. I have a picture example of exactly what I mean to show. [Moo Spyker]
# "Render Cost" seems weird on mesh's that you would think to be less weight on the sim. Examples I have are of a complex mesh cut down into smaller mesh resulting in a much lower PE but 100 times Render Cost. One specific item was 1 mesh, 42 PE 51 Render Cost. same mesh cut down to 26 indivdual objects 28 PE linked but Render Cost is 1091. I would think the Render Costs would be flipped on that example. Doesnt make much sense to me. [Moo Spyker]
# Any word on adding the LSL line to change the new physics flags? (PRIM, CONVEX HULL, NONE) [Moo Spyker]
# Any word on chaning the label "prims" to "object" or simmilar? Next update? So many people are still thinking mesh is low prims when it is not... example: from (100 prims, 200 prim equivs) to (100 objects, 200 prims/prim equivs) [Moo Spyker]
# JIRA Issue SH-2374, originally opened by Maxwell Graf, was requesting rigged mesh respond to the standard avatar appearance morph sliders as well as bone changes. I added to it to have "strength" and "bias" controls in the Edit window. Those would be a multiplier and addition or subtraction of the underlying skin movement to apply to the attached mesh. Bias would also control render order, so outer layers would always render last and thus show over lower layers. The combination of morph controls + strength + bias would give great flexibility in fitting and layering mesh items. The point of this feature is to conform attached meshes to the user's preferred shape, rather than the unhappy situation now where we have to conform the avatar shape to fit the mesh attachment. A lot of people saw the necessity of this feature, and it got about 260 watchers in a few days, and then was taken internal to LL so we cannot see the status. Can you tell us (a) what is the status of that issue, and (b) why did it need to be hidden? [DanielRavenNest Noe]
# A few other residents and myself are making mesh related tutorials on a regular basis. Would it be possible to add a tutorial subforum to the mesh forum so tutorials would be easier for new users to find? [Ashasekayi Ra]
# What to name objects in your .dae to have LODs and physics shape included in the same file as the main mesh itself? (I seem to remember this being possible from the early mesh testing days, but cant find anything on it now).... I know e.g. there was the option to name a NULL as AssetPivot and have the uploader see it as the mesh pivot (which is currently disabled) ... but the other stuff?[Motor Loon]
# Status on mesh pivot points? [Motor Loon]
# I am on the new viewer Second Life 3.0.5 (240356) (Project Viewer - Mesh), I have noticed in the edit window there is no longer prim counts or pe counts just land impact counts, will this be the new standard for counting prims? Would it not be better to use a dual system so residents who don't engage in building will be able to distinguish? [eithne Blaylock]
# I was checking out the bleeding edge of Blender versions, hoping one would fix the bone offset issue (still wonky in the public 2.59!) and encountered an issue: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/CTS-804 [Feynt Mistral]
# It's recently been brought to light (again) that it might be possible to make bones for attachment points and work with them. I haven't tested this, but if it's still working, perhaps this is an in road for custom skeletons? http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/How-to-Morphing-avatar-meshes-sort-of/m-p/444963 [Feynt Mistral]
# When I tried to upload mesh on mesh-project viewer 3.0.5(240326), I can't set the file of Medium Level of Detail. "Ship it" was OK but "calculate weights & fee" button was not enabled. Why? What should I do? [Yuzuru Jewell]
# About Mesh upload dialog of mesh-project viewer 3.0.5(240326), was "None" Option of the Source of Level of Detail gone? What does "Use LoD above" Option mean? If it is the same function of "None", why the name changed? And What does "This model represents..." Option mean? [Yuzuru Jewell]
# Is it possible to add support for attachment offsets via rigged mesh? Currently I can import weight data for attachment points, an animation can then move those rigged parts. A work around allows me to snap those parts in place with animations but I would like to see the mesh do this for me. [Racush Cheeky]
# The rigged mesh is shown as a huge ball by 1.X viewer. Please make it small to the size of Avatar. [Yuzuru Jewell]
# Bone offsets still aren't working in Blender 2.59. Any work being done by LL to correct this, either on their own or with the Blender Foundation? [Feynt Mistral]
# in the latest mesh beta viewers from last week (all newer than 240119): When i try to open the mesh importer, it crashes. is that a known bug ? [Gaia Clary]
#when can we expect Collada-1.4.1 support ? [Gaia Clary]
# Will we be able to "Select Face" on mesh objects to choose the discrete materials and assign the texture in the texture editor? [Feynt Mistral]
# Currently, in order to have bone offsets working properly, you need to use the female shape (specifically, the Thin Shape in the Ruth Library folder). This leads to all rigged mesh full avatars having female default walk animations. Is there any way, or a plan, to allow people to use the male versions of the default animations? [Tiberious]
#what about removing slm files and adding XML description files ? do you work on that ?[gaia clary] 
#When we upload, there are numbers for LOD which appear based on our initial file. If we are higher than the number projected for the next level down, does it jump to the higher cost since it expected a lower number than we have for that given level? Should we be at the number projected or lower? [Eleanora Newell]
==Meeting Notes==
==Attendees List==
*Asha (ashasekayi.ra)
*bigjr Slade (bigjr.slade)
*Charlar Linden (charlar.linden)
*Cron Stardust (cron.stardust)
*Don't Release (donot.release)
*Drongle McMahon (drongle.mcmahon)
*eithne Blaylock (eithne.blaylock)
*Feynt Mistral (feynt.mistral)
*Gaia Clary (gaia.clary)
*Graham Dartmouth (graham.dartmouth)
*Jusden Jonstone (jusden.jonstone)
*Mar Chu Lin (marika.dagostino)
*Maxwell Graf (maxwell.graf)
*Motor Loon (motor.loon)
*Nal (nalates.urriah)
*Nyx Linden (nyx.linden)
*Prep Linden (prep.linden)
*Racush (racush.cheeky)
*Rain Edring (rain.edring)
*davep (runitai.linden)
*Rusalka Writer (rusalka.writer)
*Skygirl Kline (skygirl.kline)
*Blue Alloy (tiberious.neruda)
*WolfBaginski Bearsfoot (wolfbaginski.bearsfoot)
*Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar)
*Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)
==Transcript for Monday September 12, 2011==
[12:01]	Prep Linden 	yo folks
[12:01]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) 	hey prep
[12:01]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Hello Prep.
[12:01]	Maxwell Graf 	hey asha
[12:01]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Hello Ra.
[12:01]	Rusalka Writer 	Aloha, Charlar, and Charlar's prim.
[12:01]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Heya Max and Yuzuru :)
[12:01]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) 	Nyx i explained something about that to OZ in email this morning
[12:01]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Asha waves to all
[12:01]	Racush (racush.cheeky) 	hey Runitai :D
[12:02]	davep (runitai.linden) 	davep lives
[12:02]	Nyx Linden 	ok, feel free to CC me and vir on such things in the future, I'll be sure to sync up with oz
[12:02]	bigjr Slade 	wb woddy allen :)
[12:02]	Charlar Linden 	let's roll!
[12:02]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Oy..am I standing on you?
[12:02]	Rain Edring 	Hello
[12:02]	Rusalka Writer 	Runitai is an armature of a different color.
[12:02]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	o.o
[12:02]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) 	actualy i was hopeing to talk to you concerning that after the meeting if you have time
[12:02]	Charlar Linden 	let's roll!first item!
[12:02]	Charlar Linden 	#1 Do you plan to add a "mirrior" button for mesh simmilar to the one that was added late in sculpties? Would be not only useful in creation and uploads but mirriored mesh would be instances and less server stress then a brand new uploaded model. Could even give a reduced PE if its in the same linkset as the non mirriored mesh. Have a mirrior check box and then a X Y Z dropdown box for which axis is mirriored in the features tab or something. [Moo Spyker]
[12:03]	davep (runitai.linden) 	There are no plans to add mirror support for meshes at this time
[12:03]	davep (runitai.linden) 	it gives the physics engine fits
[12:03]	Motor Loon 	nor is it really needed?
[12:03]	Feynt Mistral 	That's what mirror modifiers are for!
[12:04]	Rusalka Writer 	Easy enough to mirror before export.
[12:04]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	He may want to save on upload Linden costs.
[12:04]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot 	Of course it gives a physics engine fits. Does nasty things to polarized light.
[12:04]	Rusalka Writer 	There is that.
[12:04]	Motor Loon 	Motor Loon makes a note about the usergroup page claiming the meeting is on AGNI Mesh sandbox 5....
[12:04]	Feynt Mistral 	Don't cross the vertices!
[12:05]	davep (runitai.linden) 	yeah, Moo is correct that it would be beneficial, but it's not high enough priority to work on just now
[12:05]	Nyx Linden 	it was updated this morning motor
[12:05]	Motor Loon 	oh ... refresh... and so it is °͜°
[12:05]	Motor Loon 	thank you °͜°
[12:05]	Feynt Mistral 	After I mentioned to Nyx after he corrected me to it being on agni. >3
[12:05]	Charlar Linden 	btw, we have A LOT of items, so we need to move at a good pace.
[12:06]	Charlar Linden 	#2 I filed a jira for the LOD uploader scale problem but cannot find it anymore, has anything been done with that? It is where all LOD's and physics mesh scale up to the match the bounding box of the highest LOD. It's a pain because every LOD and physics must maintain the EXACT bounding box to avoid stretching. I have a picture example of exactly what I mean to show. [Moo Spyker]
[12:06]	Gaia Clary 	can someone tell me the link to the agenda ?
[12:06]	Prep Linden 	ahh, sh-2326
[12:06]	Charlar Linden 	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group
[12:06]	Gaia Clary 	thanks
[12:06]	Mar Chu Lin (marika.dagostino)	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation,_Mesh_Import,_Scripting_User_Group
[12:06]	Motor Loon 	that IS an annoying one
[12:06]	Mar Chu Lin (marika.dagostino)	np :-)
[12:07]	davep (runitai.linden) 	looks like the new jira is SH-2326
[12:08]	Motor Loon 	no jira helper?
[12:08]	Motor Loon 	,-(
[12:08]	Nyx Linden 	we're looking into it, not sure what the timeframe is for its release
[12:08]	davep (runitai.linden) 	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SH-2326
[12:08]	davep (runitai.linden) 	ok, now that's visible
[12:08]	Motor Loon 	thankies
[12:08]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot 	I've known things get funny with SH-series JIRAs. Permission problems on accessing the link..
[12:09]	Nyx Linden 	we JUST made it public, so try refershing
[12:09]	Charlar Linden 	#3 "Render Cost" seems weird on mesh's that you would think to be less weight on the sim. Examples I have are of a complex mesh cut down into smaller mesh resulting in a much lower PE but 100 times Render Cost. One specific item was 1 mesh, 42 PE 51 Render Cost. same mesh cut down to 26 indivdual objects 28 PE linked but Render Cost is 1091. I would think the Render Costs would be flipped on that example. Doesnt make much sense to me. [Moo Spyker]
[12:09]	Motor Loon 	Motor Loon sneaks close to Nyx and pets him
[12:10]	Nyx Linden 	Render weight isn't scaled the same as the other weights, so a render weight of 5 doesn't mean its 5 "prims" of weight
[12:10]	bigjr Slade 	wow wody Allen you are very fast today 3 point in 10 min...
[12:10]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot 	Nyx, some of you Linden guys don't seem to know about that JIRA quirk.
[12:10]	Motor Loon 	Its not really used for anything is it?
[12:10]	Nyx Linden 	its for informational purposes
[12:10]	Motor Loon 	yeah...
[12:10]	Nyx Linden 	we don't set any limits on it....currently
[12:10]	Motor Loon 	good info though
[12:10]	Motor Loon 	please dont give us more limits °͜°
[12:10]	Charlar Linden 	Charlar Linden smiles at bigjr
[12:10]	Nyx Linden 	good info for creators and consumers
[12:11]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot 	You mean like ARC?
[12:11]	Feynt Mistral 	Any chance we can have the ARC for meshes simply be the poly count?
[12:11]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) 	render costs lag viewers not sims
[12:11]	Nyx Linden 	render weight is the new ARC algorithm
[12:11]	Nyx Linden 	graphics load is a lot more complex than poly count feynt
[12:11]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot 	Oh joy...
[12:11]	Feynt Mistral 	I know. >3
[12:12]	Nyx Linden 	we have a poly cound debug display as a separate debug display
[12:12]	Rusalka Writer 	I see big numbers.
[12:12]	Feynt Mistral 	But it would invite people who don't know better to keep their builds low.
[12:12]	Nyx Linden 	*count
[12:12]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	The new ARC is operational?
[12:12]	Nyx Linden 	in the development viewer, it is operational
[12:12]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Ah, didn't know that
[12:12]	Rusalka Writer 	I returned on the right week.
[12:12]	Nyx Linden 	so go forth and test your content for render weight!
[12:12]	Graham Dartmouth 	will this end viewer discrepencies in ARC?
[12:12]	Rusalka Writer 	My pet subject, since ponies are not forthcoming.
[12:13]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Is it color coded to tell us which numbers are naughty?
[12:13]	Nyx Linden 	the new algorithm is better, and performance tuned. Its still difficult to distill render complexity down to one number.
[12:13]	Rusalka Writer 	Yep.
[12:13]	Nyx Linden 	the color coding probably needs to be rescaled, and it is dependent on what you're checking
[12:13]	Nyx Linden 	(what's naughty for a lamp is not the same as what's naughty for a castle)
[12:13]	Motor Loon 	indeed
[12:14]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Asha chuckles
[12:14]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Yes right
[12:14]	Maxwell Graf 	you have to factor in the flux capacitor readings also.
[12:14]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot 	There are people out there who take the colour coding very seriously.
[12:14]	Feynt Mistral 	You just made me see draw bridges in a whole new light, Nyx.
[12:14]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Hard to explain that to laypeople though.
[12:14]	Motor Loon 	anything can be sexy in the right light
[12:14]	Motor Loon 	..or lack of
[12:14]	Blue Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	yeah. I've heard of people kicking avs with a certain number or above
[12:14]	Blue Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	(kicking them from a parcel, I mean)
[12:14]	eithne Blaylock 	is that the show draw weight of avatars?
[12:14]	Rusalka Writer 	I'm in there.
[12:15]	Graham Dartmouth 	that kicking practice is widespread
[12:15]	Nyx Linden 	the new algorithm is used for avatars and the build tools
[12:15]	Motor Loon 	its a bit overkill
[12:15]	Nyx Linden 	check out the development viewer for details
[12:15]	Rusalka Writer 	The tastefully dressed avi is welcome everywhere.
[12:15]	Jusden Jonstone 	just dont go kicking naughty lamps too agressively
[12:15]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot 	Does this new calculation take into account texture sizes.
[12:15]	Motor Loon 	next would be not allowing for primhair? °͜° (I can live with that)
[12:16]	Charlar Linden 	#4 Any word on adding the LSL line to change the new physics flags? (PRIM, CONVEX HULL, NONE) [Moo Spyker]
[12:16]	Motor Loon 	ohohoh i need that one
[12:16]	Nyx Linden 	Wolf - yes the new calc factors in texture size
[12:16]	Feynt Mistral 	Sweet.
[12:16]	Nyx Linden 	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Nyx_Linden/Revisiting_Render_Cost
[12:16]	Charlar Linden 	there is no 'word' on this. We know there is interest. Hopefully we'll have some more info next week.
[12:16]	Feynt Mistral 	Penalty for using 1024^2 textures on a 0.1m^3 shape!
[12:16]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot 	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot grins with a degree of evil satisfaction
[12:17]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Good one Feynt
[12:17]	Blue Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	ohdeargodyes...
[12:17]	Rusalka Writer 	Who needs 1024 when you can wear a 512 sculpt map for a cupcake?
[12:17]	Charlar Linden 	moving on...
[12:17]	Blue Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	...I get SICK of places abusing high-res textures
[12:17]	Charlar Linden 	#5 Any word on chaning the label "prims" to "object" or simmilar? Next update? So many people are still thinking mesh is low prims when it is not... example: from (100 prims, 200 prim equivs) to (100 objects, 200 prims/prim equivs) [Moo Spyker]
[12:18]	Blue Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	1024², 32-bit textures all over == LOW framerates
[12:18]	Charlar Linden 	Moo's not here, I think, but if you look at the newest dev build, youll see new verbage.
[12:18]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot 	That doesn't make sense to me. Not while we have an "Objects" folder in inventory
[12:18]	Jusden Jonstone 	isnt that somewhat the goal of the new "land impact" verbage
[12:18]	Motor Loon 	I think I tried to add to that one, as a suggestion calling them "pieces" instead of prims - on mesh objects
[12:18]	Nyx Linden 	high texture count & texture resolution is as much a performance problem as too much geometry
[12:18]	Blue Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	...how about the term 'Pieces'?
[12:19]	Motor Loon 	its already a problem on many marketplace items
[12:19]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	True
[12:19]	Feynt Mistral 	Feynt Mistral nods
[12:19]	Motor Loon 	creators claiming 7 prims ... then you buy it... and its 150PE on a 7 item linksest
[12:19]	Blue Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	(or 'Parts', though that might get confused with particles)
[12:19]	Nyx Linden 	the new verbage should make things much more clear
[12:19]	Charlar Linden 	take a look at the build and please give us feedback
[12:20]	Nyx Linden 	no longer using the term "prim equivalent"
[12:20]	eithne Blaylock 	I love the new verbage
[12:20]	Motor Loon 	sorry... whats is called now?
[12:20]	eithne Blaylock 	and the fact it shows whats unused on the land
[12:20]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot 	Motor, AR the merchant on the grounds of obtaining L$ by deception.
[12:20]	Motor Loon 	will do
[12:21]	Blue Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	misleading item description?
[12:21]	Motor Loon 	I saw several during a 5 minutes look around on marketplace
[12:21]	Charlar Linden 	moving on ---
[12:21]	Charlar Linden 	#6 JIRA Issue SH-2374, originally opened by Maxwell Graf, was requesting rigged mesh respond to the standard avatar appearance morph sliders as well as bone changes. I added to it to have "strength" and "bias" controls in the Edit window. Those would be a multiplier and addition or subtraction of the underlying skin movement to apply to the attached mesh. Bias would also control render order, so outer layers would always render last and thus show over lower layers. The combination of morph controls + strength + bias would give great flexibility in fitting and layering mesh items. The point of this feature is to conform attached meshes to the user's preferred shape, rather than the unhappy situation now where we have to conform the avatar shape to fit the mesh attachment. A lot of people saw the necessity of this feature, and it got about 260 watchers in a few days, and then was taken internal to LL so we cannot see the status. Can you tell us (a) what is the status of that issue, and (b) why did it need to b
[12:21]	Motor Loon 	whats instead of "prim equiv." nyx?
[12:21]	Nyx Linden 	"Land impact"
[12:21]	Motor Loon 	ah
[12:22]	Motor Loon 	ok... guess that makes sense
[12:22]	davep (runitai.linden) 	the jira should be public now
[12:22]	Maxwell Graf 	Why you hide my jira! :D
[12:22]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	lol
[12:22]	Maxwell Graf 	i cant see it yet, when I log in.
[12:22]	Nyx Linden 	try refreshing, we just changed it during this meeting :P
[12:22]	davep (runitai.linden) 	jira just does that by default for some reason
[12:22]	Maxwell Graf 	ah.
[12:22]	Feynt Mistral 	LL, y u no keep JIRAs public?
[12:22]	Maxwell Graf 	So, whats the status?
[12:22]	Maxwell Graf 	any word?
[12:23]	davep (runitai.linden) 	it's under investigation -- we're exploring solutions to that problem
[12:23]	Motor Loon 	does seem like a good idea
[12:23]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot 	It sounds like a seriously complicated problem...
[12:23]	Motor Loon 	mesh is complicated °͜°
[12:23]	Maxwell Graf 	Theres several practical solutions out there.
[12:23]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Does LL see it as low or high priority when it comes to mesh features?
[12:24]	Graham Dartmouth 	somebody nudge prep, looks like he has fallen asleep over there
[12:24]	bigjr Slade 	who have a pie for prep
[12:24]	Jusden Jonstone 	prep is prepping for his big entrance
[12:24]	Maxwell Graf 	I really hope this takes on some level of priority for you guys.
[12:24]	Rusalka Writer 	Poke him with a banana.
[12:25]	Feynt Mistral 	Since we have the ability to make bones out of attach points, we should be able to resize clothing by way of animations.
[12:25]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Agreed Max
[12:25]	Maxwell Graf 	it would solve a large list of problems.
[12:25]	Prep Linden 	nah - just waiting for the banana pie.
[12:25]	Charlar Linden 	Rigging is not as high as stability, Asha
[12:25]	Rusalka Writer 	Ah.
[12:25]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot 	Oh, I know of several solutions to the problem, in general, but they depend on the user being able to export items from the program his uses. I can here the screaming of scared merchants from here.
[12:25]	Rusalka Writer 	That's the cue to crash, btw.
[12:25]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Fair enough on that one Charlar
[12:26]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	But after stability ^^ It would be awesome.
[12:26]	Maxwell Graf 	yus
[12:26]	Charlar Linden 	The av related items are really interesting to us, but we had to make choices to get things released.
[12:26]	Charlar Linden 	moving on?
[12:26]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Sure
[12:27]	Charlar Linden 	#7 A few other residents and myself are making mesh related tutorials on a regular basis. Would it be possible to add a tutorial subforum to the mesh forum so tutorials would be easier for new users to find? [Ashasekayi Ra]
[12:27]	Rusalka Writer 	Good one.
[12:27]	Blue Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	Blue Alloy added something
[12:27]	Cron Stardust 	wouldn't tuts be on the wiki?
[12:28]	Charlar Linden 	There have been discussions on the forms about changes to the forum. I'm hesitant to make changes for a while, until things settle downa bit. I can see in teh future some changes would be good.
[12:28]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Is the forum or the wiki a better place for a list of tutorials?
[12:28]	Feynt Mistral 	No, some people don't visit the wiki at all.
[12:28]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Everyone doesn't add their tuts to the wiki.
[12:28]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	And yes, I think more people look on the mesh forum than the wiki.
[12:28]	Rusalka Writer 	They need to be as easy to find as possible.
[12:28]	Feynt Mistral 	By changes to the forum, do you mean replacing it with the old BB System you had before? >D
[12:28]	Gaia Clary 	i find the wiki to be a bit complicated to read and find things there ...
[12:28]	Charlar Linden 	sorry, folks people, gotta keep pushing forward...
[12:29]	Rusalka Writer 	Agreed.
[12:29]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot 	Things seem to be a bit of a moving target, even now, and I wonder if the Wiki can be kept current.
[12:29]	Charlar Linden 	#8 What to name objects in your .dae to have LODs and physics shape included in the same file as the main mesh itself? (I seem to remember this being possible from the early mesh testing days, but cant find anything on it now).... I know e.g. there was the option to name a NULL as AssetPivot and have the uploader see it as the mesh pivot (which is currently disabled) ... but the other stuff?[Motor Loon]
[12:29]	Motor Loon 	Motor Loon crosses fingers
[12:30]	Prep Linden 	That would be a great feature and it is indeed in our backlog - just not in the near future.
[12:30]	Motor Loon 	;-(
[12:30]	Motor Loon 	so.. monday next year?
[12:30]	bigjr Slade 	2015
[12:30]	Charlar Linden 	ok
[12:30]	Charlar Linden 	next
[12:31]	Charlar Linden 	#9 Status on mesh pivot points? [Motor Loon]
[12:31]	Cron Stardust 	Question 9 is related to CTS-297 / CTS-496
[12:31]	bigjr Slade 	2016
[12:31]	Motor Loon 	sounds about right
[12:31]	Skygirl Kline 	)
[12:31]	Prep Linden 	Mesh pivot points aren't going to be in release 2 (still need some serve side attention).
[12:31]	Prep Linden 	*server
[12:32]	Motor Loon 	hm ok... there's workarounds for it... just would be nice to have
[12:32]	Feynt Mistral 	Yay for stray vertices?
[12:32]	Blue Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	LOL
[12:32]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Asha snorts
[12:32]	Motor Loon 	havent actually tried a lone vert... but an invisible triangle works
[12:33]	bigjr Slade 	motor wrote the code and and send it LL :)
[12:33]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	I've tried the invisible triangle.
[12:33]	Charlar Linden 	ok next...
[12:33]	Cron Stardust 	Is the AssetPivot trick still operable, or shut down (from CTS-297 )
[12:33]	Charlar Linden 	#10 I am on the new viewer Second Life 3.0.5 (240356) (Project Viewer - Mesh), I have noticed in the edit window there is no longer prim counts or pe counts just land impact counts, will this be the new standard for counting prims? Would it not be better to use a dual system so residents who don't engage in building will be able to distinguish? [eithne Blaylock]
[12:33]	Prep Linden 	motor: yeah - hold out hope (there is nto ahuge amount of work left).
[12:33]	Nyx Linden 	"land impact" is the new term for PE :)
[12:33]	Nyx Linden 	it refers to what we actually charge against your land, whether it is made of prims or of meshes
[12:34]	Nyx Linden 	which is a separate measure of how many individual "prims" your object is made up of
[12:34]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Is there a plan to add that new term to the marketplace?
[12:34]	Motor Loon 	creators also need to learn that vehicles can become higher "impact" when physical
[12:34]	Nyx Linden 	its just a language change
[12:34]	Motor Loon 	and should inform their customers about this
[12:34]	Prep Linden 	cron: yeah that's the implementation thats on hold till we get the server work done.
[12:34]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot 	So will the "land impact" of a prim object ever be different from the prim count?
[12:34]	Rusalka Writer 	Wish it had been done before we had products...
[12:34]	Nyx Linden 	yep, the land impact of a single prim mesh is often not 1.
[12:35]	Nyx Linden 	apologies, the language change was done in response to the confusion around the terms.
[12:35]	Motor Loon 	but min. 1 right... coz I have many 0.5 PE mesh's
[12:35]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot 	I am very glad I have not maxed out the prim count on my parcel. I could get irritated.
[12:36]	Feynt Mistral 	Feynt Mistral ponders a 0.9 PE avatar mesh.
[12:36]	Charlar Linden 	ok, moving
[12:36]	Charlar Linden 	#11 I was checking out the bleeding edge of Blender versions, hoping one would fix the bone offset issue (still wonky in the public 2.59!) and encountered an issue: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/CTS-804 [Feynt Mistral]
[12:37]	Prep Linden 	Yeah, I'll be adding the ability for the importer to handle the format (should be fairly easy).
[12:37]	Feynt Mistral 	Basically the newest version of Blender uses the matrix tag over separate position, rotation, and scale tags.
[12:37]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Yay \o/
[12:37]	Motor Loon 	aslong as you dont break anything for non.blender use °͜°
[12:37]	Prep Linden 	yeah, we have partial support for this in other places of the importer (just must have missed one ;-) ).
[12:37]	Feynt Mistral 	Since it's changed, it's also possible it fixes the offset issues. >3
[12:38]	Feynt Mistral 	Whoops. >D
[12:38]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Very good news
[12:38]	Charlar Linden 	next...
[12:38]	Charlar Linden 	#12 It's recently been brought to light (again) that it might be possible to make bones for attachment points and work with them. I haven't tested this, but if it's still working, perhaps this is an in road for custom skeletons? http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/How-to-Morphing-avatar-meshes-sort-of/m-p/444963 [Feynt Mistral]
[12:39]	Feynt Mistral 	Racush is sporting an avatar showing this off right now actually.
[12:39]	Racush (racush.cheeky) 	yeeep
[12:39]	Racush (racush.cheeky) 	just need one thing fixed I have it on the agenda
[12:39]	Rusalka Writer 	There do seem to be issues.
[12:40]	Prep Linden 	Feynt: that is unsupporterd - I have not verified it either way (perhaps my next UG I'll have something to add).
[12:40]	Prep Linden 	*by
[12:40]	Feynt Mistral 	I figured it was unsupported, but here it is, in the mesh. >3
[12:40]	Blue Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	it might be unsupported, but damn, that's awesome
[12:40]	Charlar Linden 	btw - unsupported means if behavior changes, it's not a bug.
[12:40]	Feynt Mistral 	Feynt Mistral nods
[12:40]	Rusalka Writer 	Then it's a feature.
[12:41]	Charlar Linden 	next #13 When I tried to upload mesh on mesh-project viewer 3.0.5(240326), I can't set the file of Medium Level of Detail. "Ship it" was OK but "calculate weights & fee" button was not enabled. Why? What should I do? [Yuzuru Jewell]
[12:41]	Nyx Linden 	please file a jira for this one and send us the collada file, so that we can figure out what's going on
[12:41]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot 	Unsupported on Zindra certainly seems to be a feature.
[12:41]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	OK I will do.
[12:42]	Charlar Linden 	next?
[12:42]	Charlar Linden 	#14 About Mesh upload dialog of mesh-project viewer 3.0.5(240326), was "None" Option of the Source of Level of Detail gone? What does "Use LoD above" Option mean? If it is the same function of "None", why the name changed? And What does "This model represents..." Option mean? [Yuzuru Jewell]
[12:42]	Nyx Linden 	"none" was relabeled to "use LoD above"
[12:42]	Nyx Linden 	the term "none" was confusing as it looked like you would see nothing at that LOD, when in fact we'd just use the next highest LOD
[12:43]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	They are same?
[12:43]	Nyx Linden 	they are the same.
[12:43]	Feynt Mistral 	Yes, it would seem so.
[12:43]	Blue Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	they are the same
[12:43]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Ok thank you.
[12:43]	Nyx Linden 	just a language change again
[12:43]	Feynt Mistral 	None was fine for me, but I'll take the rename either way.
[12:43]	Charlar Linden 	next...
[12:43]	Charlar Linden 	next...#15 Is it possible to add support for attachment offsets via rigged mesh? Currently I can import weight data for attachment points, an animation can then move those rigged parts. A work around allows me to snap those parts in place with animations but I would like to see the mesh do this for me. [Racush Cheeky]
[12:44]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	What This model represents.. means ?
[12:44]	Racush (racush.cheeky) 	all it needs is to read the translate data
[12:44]	Racush (racush.cheeky) 	i'm guessing you do that for the bones right when offsets are imported?
[12:44]	Prep Linden 	Sure it would be possible, file a Jira with your info.
[12:44]	Racush (racush.cheeky) 	ok
[12:45]	Racush (racush.cheeky) 	I will post some sample files
[12:45]	Prep Linden 	include a sample
[12:45]	Prep Linden 	hehe - yup
[12:45]	Charlar Linden 	next one.
[12:45]	Charlar Linden 	#16 The rigged mesh is shown as a huge ball by 1.X viewer. Please make it small to the size of Avatar. [Yuzuru Jewell]
[12:45]	Blue Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	I'd like to see that too. Would be very easy to make avatars with jaw animations
[12:45]	Feynt Mistral 	I actually miss the pacman implementation.
[12:45]	Charlar Linden 	sorry, we're not doing any work to support old 1.x viewers
[12:46]	Rusalka Writer 	Kill 1.23
[12:46]	Charlar Linden 	focused on current viewers only.
[12:46]	Charlar Linden 	Charlar Linden nods
[12:46]	Motor Loon 	time to upgrade
[12:46]	Blue Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	not quite yet
[12:46]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot 	Be careful, some places have nudity rules: make the ball too small, and would look like a nudie griefer.
[12:46]	Nyx Linden 	more TPVs are adding mesh support as we speak
[12:46]	Blue Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	Firestorm is working on mesh, but it's not quite stable yet
[12:46]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	That is big probrem.
[12:47]	Feynt Mistral 	Oh which begs the question, Nyx, is there any way we'll see an open source uploader for TPV?
[12:47]	Nyx Linden 	its a transitional problem, work on getting on a viewer who's code base was updated in the past 2 years :)
[12:47]	Charlar Linden 	time will reduce and then eliminate the problem.
[12:47]	Motor Loon 	its kinda like when we got sculpties... had hoped the 3rd party devs had been more prepared before the lauch
[12:47]	Nyx Linden 	Feynt - yep, working with wolfpup on that one
[12:47]	Feynt Mistral 	Woo
[12:47]	Charlar Linden 	We have soo much work to do that taking time ot work on old viewer support is very low on the priority
[12:47]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) 	Feynt that is what OPEN-105 is for
[12:47]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot 	The frame rate on the Linden Lab mesh-capable viewer sucked when the launch happened.
[12:48]	Feynt Mistral 	File a JIRA about it. >3
[12:48]	Rusalka Writer 	Lol.
[12:49]	Feynt Mistral 	Next!
[12:49]	Blue Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	worse, it caused my video card drivers to lock up
[12:49]	Charlar Linden 	#17 Bone offsets still aren't working in Blender 2.59. Any work being done by LL to correct this, either on their own or with the Blender Foundation? [Feynt Mistral]
[12:49]	Prep Linden 	There was some posts on the forums regarding a blender patch for handling the extra rotations on the armatures...I haven't verified that or the effect on the joint offsets.
[12:49]	Prep Linden 	But fwiw, I have seen rigs coming in that were exported from 2.5.9x that contained offsets.
[12:50]	Feynt Mistral 	I read about a Blender patch for 2.58 that someone did for the TGE, but I tried and it didn't work.
[12:50]	Feynt Mistral 	It's possible the rig I'm using is just incompatable in some way, but it works in 2.49, so something's up.
[12:50]	Charlar Linden 	318 in the latest mesh beta viewers from last week: When i try to open the mesh importer, it crashes. is that a known bug ? [Gaia Clary]
[12:50]	Prep Linden 	File a jira and attach the asset.
[12:50]	Nyx Linden 	Not that I know of. We did have such crashes at one point. have you tried our latest development viewer?
[12:51]	Nyx Linden 	please file a JIRA bug for this and we'd like to investigate it as stability is one of our top priorities right now
[12:51]	Gaia Clary 	ok, i will do
[12:51]	Drongle McMahon 	same for me...I did file a jira
[12:52]	Nyx Linden 	ok pleae just email me the jira # :)
[12:52]	Gaia Clary 	so then i dont need to file a jira, i will attach to drongle's entry...
[12:52]	Cron Stardust 	Is there a JIRA for having freshly linked items that suddenly jump above parcel limits unlink instead of autoreturn? (was very annoying when I linked a mesh into my spacestation that uses too many torii)
[12:52]	Drongle McMahon 	CTS-803
[12:53]	Drongle McMahon 	Is the crash reporter working? It should have told you
[12:53]	Nyx Linden 	ok, will import and try to see if we can reproduce
[12:53]	Motor Loon 	linking mesh with regular prim and sculpties is a rather bad idea really
[12:53]	Nyx Linden 	yep, I'll search the crash reporter.
[12:53]	Charlar Linden 	#19 when can we expect Collada-1.4.1 support ? [Gaia Clary]
[12:53]	Prep Linden 	Yup, we've added support for Collada 1.4.1.
[12:53]	eithne Blaylock 	yes it is a very bad idea
[12:53]	Motor Loon 	hm... Im using collada 1.4.1
[12:53]	Gaia Clary 	240119 is the last one that works for me btw ...
[12:54]	Prep Linden 	We've been seeing lots of collada 1.4.1 meshes.
[12:54]	Gaia Clary 	ok.
[12:54]	Feynt Mistral 	Support for animation from COLLADA would be nice too. >)
[12:54]	Cron Stardust 	No sculpts in my spacestation , just too many torii - which I plan on meshing :P
[12:54]	Nyx Linden 	that's a whole other ball game Feynt :)
[12:54]	Prep Linden 	gaia: if you have assets that fail to upload let us know.
[12:54]	Feynt Mistral 	Update from archaic BVHs
[12:54]	Charlar Linden 	next...5 minutes to go!
[12:54]	Feynt Mistral 	Unshackle yourself from Poser!
[12:55]	eithne Blaylock 	yeah do not link torii with mesh
[12:55]	Charlar Linden 	#20 Will we be able to "Select Face" on mesh objects to choose the discrete materials and assign the texture in the texture editor? [Feynt Mistral]
[12:55]	Blue Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	but don't you have to animate every frame in collada?
[12:55]	Feynt Mistral 	Feynt Mistral shrugs
[12:55]	Nyx Linden 	you should be ble to do that today
[12:55]	Feynt Mistral 	I'd take it.
[12:55]	Blue Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	yeah
[12:55]	Motor Loon 	yeah use faces all the time on my mesh
[12:55]	Blue Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	use Select Face and click the part you want to texture
[12:55]	Nyx Linden 	select face should "just work"
[12:55]	Drongle McMahon 	Uh? I thought we could do that already.
[12:56]	Feynt Mistral 	Hrm, I wasn't able to in the past.
[12:56]	Cron Stardust 	WE can do it
[12:56]	Rusalka Writer 	Interesting.
[12:56]	eithne Blaylock 	so long as the modeller assigned at least differant colors to the mesh, tho i haven't had any luck if that wasn't done
[12:56]	Feynt Mistral 	I'll try again some time.
[12:56]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot 	are you confusing faces with polygons?
[12:56]	Gaia Clary 	the avatar i wear works with faces i edited the colors in the SL editor...
[12:56]	davep (runitai.linden) 	if it's rigged, you need to go into edit mode first
[12:56]	Cron Stardust 	Takes assiging different materials in your editor to the faces.
[12:56]	Gaia Clary 	runitai, that used to work on worn assets a few weaks ago...
[12:57]	Charlar Linden 	next - 3 minutes...
[12:57]	Charlar Linden 	#21 Currently, in order to have bone offsets working properly, you need to use the female shape (specifically, the Thin Shape in the Ruth Library folder). This leads to all rigged mesh full avatars having female default walk animations. Is there any way, or a plan, to allow people to use the male versions of the default animations? [Tiberious]
[12:57]	Cron Stardust 	sounds like an application of client-side AO :P
[12:58]	Rusalka Writer 	Walk like a man, my son.
[12:58]	Prep Linden 	You should be able to use either - File a jira and I can investigate it.
[12:58]	Blue Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	there ARE a set of gender-specific animations
[12:58]	Feynt Mistral 	The female waddle is too much. >3
[12:59]	Blue Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	remember, those got slowed down to where they look halfway decent now
[12:59]	Charlar Linden 	next....
[12:59]	bigjr Slade 	a pony AO ? for the mesh ponies ?
[12:59]	Rusalka Writer 	Pony.
[12:59]	Charlar Linden 	#22 what about removing slm files and adding XML description files ? do you work on that ?[gaia clary]
[12:59]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot 	You could put a suitable AO setup in the mesh object, couldn't you?
[12:59]	davep (runitai.linden) 	the slm file is the same format as the mesh asset we use for streaming the mesh back down, which is not xml... there are no plans to create some interim xml format
[13:00]	Gaia Clary 	so no chance to get some method to describe a set of meshes ...
[13:00]	Blue Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 	I could, if the female animations didn't override the male ones
[13:00]	Charlar Linden 	we're over, time for one more!
[13:00]	Charlar Linden 	#23 When we upload, there are numbers for LOD which appear based on our initial file. If we are higher than the number projected for the next level down, does it jump to the higher cost since it expected a lower number than we have for that given level? Should we be at the number projected or lower? [Eleanora Newell]
[13:01]	Nyx Linden 	Those numbers are suggested triangle values for your LODs
[13:01]	Nyx Linden 	you can raise the triangle limits at each LOD if you would like but it will increase upload fee and land impact
[13:01]	davep (runitai.linden) 	gotta run -- thanks folks
[13:01]	Prep Linden 	gotta run folks - have a good one!
[13:01]	Rusalka Writer 	Aloha!
[13:01]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Adios Lindens
[13:01]	Nyx Linden 	there aren't hard requirements as to what the triangle limits are set at, but we have provided decent suggestions for what to use
[13:01]	Feynt Mistral 	Night folks.
[13:01]	Mar Chu Lin (marika.dagostino)	uspeh!
[13:01]	Racush (racush.cheeky) 	byeeee
[13:01]	Graham Dartmouth 	ty lindens
[13:02]	Nyx Linden 	phew, 23 topics in an hour!
[13:02]	Feynt Mistral 	Oh if you want to see my big tree it's up in Sandbox 25
[13:02]	Motor Loon 	Not bad Nyx °͜°
[13:02]	Motor Loon 	go have coffee, lots of it
[13:02]	Feynt Mistral 	I know some of the Lindens were asking why I would need a tree that big. >)
[13:02]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) 	i think this is a first
[13:02]	Rusalka Writer 	Lots covered today.
[13:02]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Thank you Nyx
[13:02]	Charlar Linden 	think's its' cool Feynt
[13:02]	Charlar Linden 	thanks everyone
[13:02]	Charlar Linden 	and Nooto - best Avi yet
[13:02]	Nyx Linden 	we'll be watching the forum if you have further questions. otherwise see you next week
[13:02]	Feynt Mistral 	Night.
[13:03]	Rusalka Writer 	And on that note...
[13:03]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) 	a nyx about what i asked earlier
[13:03]	Feynt Mistral 	Nyx go poof.
[13:03]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	See you next week.
[13:03]	Maxwell Graf 	...HOLA!!...
[13:03]	bigjr Slade 	cu wissy allen :)
[13:03]	bigjr Slade 	woddy
[13:03]	Charlar Linden 	and poof!
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