Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2012.05.11

Simulator_User_Group
Prev 2012.05.08	Next 2012.05.15
== List of Speakers ==
Andrew Linden 	Ardy Lay 	Ashiri Sands
DogWomble Dollinger	Draconis Neurocam	Falcon Linden
Kallista Destiny 	Liisa Runo 	Nalates Urriah
Rex Cronon 	Simon Linden 	Sopherian Yumako
Squirrel Wood 	Vincent Nacon 	Visitor Detector
Yuzuru Jewell 	 	
== Transcript ==
[16:01] DogWomble Dollinger: Yes! YEEESSSS!!!
[16:01] DogWomble Dollinger: well we all know smoking is bad for your health :P
[16:01] Kallista Destiny: Andrew is late...
[16:01] User Group Visitor Detector: Andrew Linden is at the user group
[16:01] DogWomble Dollinger: hi andrew
[16:01] Visitor Detector: Returning visitor to your land: Andrew Linden
[16:02] Ardy Lay: Huh, where is the psys debugger in this newfangled viewer UI?
[16:02] Simon Linden: ok, I'll need to work on that
[16:02] User Group Visitor Detector: Nalates Urriah is at the user group
[16:02] Visitor Detector: Returning visitor to your land: Nalates Urriah
[16:03] Ardy Lay: Particle Laboratory in Teal has some nice tutorials and samples.
[16:03] Andrew Linden: Alright, news...
[16:03] User Group Visitor Detector: Rex Cronon is at the user group
[16:03] Visitor Detector: Returning visitor to your land: Rex Cronon
[16:03] Rex Cronon: hello evrybody
[16:03] Rex Cronon: everybody*
[16:03] Andrew Linden: I hope Simon has some news, because mine is not very interesting...
[16:03] DogWomble Dollinger: hi rex
[16:04] Andrew Linden: I'm still fixing bugs in the pathfinding stuff
[16:04] Simon Linden: I have some that should keep us busy for a bit
[16:04] Andrew Linden: but today was a good day, I'm in the middle of merging/pushing everything I got done this week
[16:04] Ardy Lay: Heh, I think I crashed a pathfinding region twice this week.
[16:04] Rex Cronon: hi dogwomble
[16:04] Andrew Linden: and I finished just about everything that I had put on my plate for the week
[16:04] Andrew Linden: which makes for nice closure on a Friday
[16:05] Nalates Urriah: Yay for you.... nice.
[16:05] Kallista Destiny: That is always a satisfactory way to end the week
[16:05] Andrew Linden: One of the things we finally fixed is connecting the navigation meshes between neighboring regions
[16:05] Vincent Nacon: just about everything? what's left?
[16:05] Andrew Linden: although I dunno if that is deployed to agni yet or not... could be.
[16:06] Andrew Linden: Definitely on aditi. Maestro was testing it today.
[16:06] Andrew Linden: Maestro actually fixed the last bug there... file permissions were being set wrong in some bash script.
[16:06] Andrew Linden: He hunted it down and fixed it. I was very thankful.
[16:07] User Group Visitor Detector: Sopherian Yumako is at the user group
[16:07] Visitor Detector: Returning visitor to your land: Sopherian Yumako
[16:07] Andrew Linden: Lessee... what is left for pathfinding?
[16:07] Rex Cronon: team work. very important:)
[16:07] Sopherian Yumako: hello. everybody
[16:07] DogWomble Dollinger: hi soph
[16:07] Rex Cronon: hi
[16:07] Vincent Nacon: heya
[16:07] Andrew Linden: I think the next project I'll be woking on is changing how the server complains when you try to move/modify an object that is part of the navmesh...
[16:08] Andrew Linden: I thinhk we're going to try to just let you move/modify it
[16:08] Andrew Linden: but provide the viewer with some feedback to please let us know when you're done... so that we can start actually computing the navmesh
[16:08] Andrew Linden: since we don't want to compute it after every change ... it takes too long
[16:09] Andrew Linden: That's next for me, and misc small bug fixes, like not allowing AI characters to be set phantom, and things like that.
[16:09] Andrew Linden: Ok, that's all my news. Simon?
[16:10] Simon Linden: well, the steaks are on again...
[16:10] User Group Visitor Detector: Squirrel Wood is at the user group
[16:10] Visitor Detector: Returning visitor to your land: Squirrel Wood
[16:10] Simon Linden: for releases next week, there's not much
[16:10] Draconis Neurocam: is there a minimum change for rotation or position so that acts as a cutoff?
[16:10] Simon Linden: We may be doing some re-alignment of busy regions to better hardware on Tuesday since there isn't a server update in the pipeline
[16:10] VISTA ANIMATIONS *HUD 3.4* URBAN MALE AO V2 U: MAIN AO ON
[16:10] Kallista Destiny: I heard that there is someting 'interesting' for Bluesteel
[16:11] Simon Linden: Wednesday should get the region crossing RC again
[16:11] Andrew Linden: Draconis, for modifications to navmeshy objects? No minimum... any change at all would trigger a complete recomputation of the navmesh.
[16:11] Draconis Neurocam: ah
[16:11] Simon Linden: Plus on Bluesteel we're going to turn on "region idling" ... a new feature that may help a bit with performance
[16:11] Vincent Nacon: what's the rule on phyiscal object and non-physic moving object dealing with navmesh?
[16:12] DogWomble Dollinger: i assume that's where resources are reassigned to busy sims from less-busy sims on the same server?
[16:12] Simon Linden: Basically, regions that are empty -- no avatars, and nobody can see into them, will run at a lower frame rate. This should give up a bit of CPU time, and other busy regions on the same server will hopefully benefit
[16:12] Nalates Urriah: What will happen to scripts in regions that idle?
[16:12] Simon Linden: Scripts and everything continue to run ... but will be around 10 fps, not 45
[16:13] Simon Linden: Scripts actually aren't slowed down that much ... we give them some extra time per-frame, but not as many frames
[16:13] Kallista Destiny: Perhaps a time window after the last move, say a minute or two then you start the navmesh recomputtion
[16:13] Draconis Neurocam: that might be a bit of a headache that use sims for servers of somesort
[16:13] Simon Linden: Also, if external events happen -- llEmail, llHttpRequest, etc -- it runs a full speed for a few seconds
[16:13] Draconis Neurocam: for those that*
[16:13] Draconis Neurocam: ah
[16:14] Simon Linden: Right, Draconis, we don't want to hurt those scripts
[16:15] Simon Linden: I started investigating this back in 2008, so I'm kinda glad to see it happen finally :)
[16:15] Ardy Lay: COuld be a big energy saver
[16:15] Nalates Urriah: Persistance makes for winners
[16:15] Simon Linden: We're not expecting a huge change ... but every bit helps
[16:16] Simon Linden: Hopefully it won't kill off any virtual pets or plants, but we'll be on the lookout for reports of problems
[16:16] Rex Cronon: what about those people that expect their scripts to run at full speed even though there is nobody around?
[16:16] Rex Cronon: r the going to pay less money for a sim:)
[16:16] Rex Cronon: r they*
[16:17] Andrew Linden: probably the objects that will be most affected will be simulator performance monitors
[16:17] Ardy Lay: Scripts should be event driven.
[16:17] Ardy Lay: Not like you are encoding video or something.
[16:17] Simon Linden: There is a new tag in llGetEnv("region_idle") that can tell a script if the region is idling or not
[16:17] Draconis Neurocam: ooh
[16:18] Nalates Urriah: nice
[16:18] Simon Linden: There are likely to be some sim monitoring scripts which will complain, and those will need to be fixed
[16:18] Kallista Destiny: Timers will still run as normal, just with a coarser granularity
[16:18] Ardy Lay: I suspect "performance monitors" are usually the "top scripts" in a region.
[16:18] Ardy Lay: I generally remove them.
[16:18] Rex Cronon: what do u mean by "fixed"?
[16:18] Simon Linden: We decided this was better than trying to fake the frame rate
[16:19] Simon Linden: well, it depends on what they do with that info ... if they are just logging the sim frame rate, the data will just show it dropping to around 10 fps when it idles
[16:19] Simon Linden: If it's sending you email or setting off your pager at 3 a.m, you'll proably want to re-program it
[16:19] Squirrel Wood: just give scripts a way to query if a sim is in idle mode ?
[16:20] Simon Linden: Right Squirrely, that's llGetEnv("region_idle")
[16:20] Squirrel Wood: like you can query its state to see if its running, starting, etc
[16:20] Ardy Lay: You using the account scripted agent flag with this feature?
[16:20] Simon Linden: No, any agent on a region, or looking into it, prevents idling
[16:21] Draconis Neurocam: that is 10fps as opposed to the ideal 45 right?
[16:21] Squirrel Wood: why would looking into it have to prevent that ?
[16:21] Simon Linden: We've had this code out for a while, recording how often regions _would_ idle, but not actually doing it
[16:21] Ardy Lay: Ah, ... I wouldn't mind you idleing is under my bots. They won't mind either.
[16:21] Rex Cronon: ok. so u just have to park a fashion model to keep sim from going idle:)
[16:21] Simon Linden: It's not a _huge_ percentage ... I think the last check was 15 to 20% of the grid
[16:21] Draconis Neurocam: i believe that
[16:21] Simon Linden: Right, hire a camper
[16:21] Squirrel Wood: anti-idle-camping-seats - a new way to earn monkeys!
[16:22] Andrew Linden: Ardy, you're talking about avatar bots, that show up like a regular SL client connection?
[16:22] Simon Linden: but on the flip side ... you really would like the other regions that you share a server with to go into idle
[16:22] Andrew Linden: Or object bots?
[16:22] Vincent Nacon: i'm sure he meant object bot
[16:22] Ardy Lay: Andrew, agents. They have the scripted agent flag set on their profiles.
[16:22] Simon Linden: if you have scripted butterflies, do you really care if they run at 10fps when you can't see them?
[16:22] Vincent Nacon: with animation
[16:22] Vincent Nacon: :P
[16:23] Squirrel Wood: what I would like to see when you try logging into a sim thats down: Being placed in a NEARBY region. Like, ADJACENT rather than into the next hub on the adult continent. :p
[16:23] Rex Cronon: if i have birds that hunt for butterflies i do care about the frame rate
[16:23] Andrew Linden: well that is an interesting idea... idle even when there are some registerd agent bots
[16:23] Simon Linden: They'd both be running slower than normal, Rex
[16:24] Rex Cronon: that will affect their reproductive rate:)
[16:24] Simon Linden: I'd _guess_ that the number of regions that only have scripted bot agents is pretty small
[16:24] Kallista Destiny: rex the birds will be slower too, and by the same amount
[16:24] Ardy Lay: Mine are only there to serve the residents, so, no residents means the bots are idle too.
[16:25] Simon Linden: Right, in that case it would be OK to idle ... but I wonder if there are others that would have problems
[16:25] Ardy Lay: Just the land hoovers
[16:25] Simon Linden: In any case, it's not programmed to take scripted bots into account
[16:26] Ardy Lay: They are pretty much the only thing that demands split-second transaction timing.
[16:26] Andrew Linden: Well, no need to do it right off the bat. It's expermental at the moment, but interesting to consider.
[16:26] Ashiri Sands: Possibly... some groups have service bots for several regions on another region
[16:27] Ardy Lay: What actions would the slower frame rate really slow down that a bot would notice?
[16:27] Ashiri Sands: Not sure, I don't deal with them
[16:27] Simon Linden: I'm not sure they would notice, but they would end up running slower than normal
[16:28] Simon Linden: But in any case, they're not going to slow down now
[16:28] Andrew Linden: If it were walking around, then its real-time speed would be reduced to 2/9 of its normal speed.
[16:28] Ardy Lay: Heh, mine sit in chairs.
[16:29] Simon Linden: But something like that scripted cat reading the book ... it uses up CPU time when nobody is around, and won't have problems at 10 fps
[16:29] Squirrel Wood: they'd be sitting a lot slower then :p
[16:29] Ardy Lay: The don't teleport or otherwise move unless asked to by a resident or administrator.
[16:29] Draconis Neurocam: how abstracted from the core functioning of the sim is the thing that makes it go idle, is there ever a chance it won't pick up as fast as it should?
[16:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[16:30] Simon Linden: I don't think so ... the logic is actually pretty simple
[16:31] Simon Linden: When the simulator runs, each frame it sends updates, runs scripts, handles network traffic, does physics and colliisions, etc ...
[16:31] Simon Linden: at the end, if there is extra time ("spare time" in the viewer stats) it does a loop where it sleeps, then checks network traffic, and repeats until 23 ms have passed. That's 45 fps
[16:32] Simon Linden: The idle code simply extends that loop
[16:32] Draconis Neurocam: ah
[16:32] Draconis Neurocam: I always wondered what spare time was
[16:33] Simon Linden: The logic checks if there are any AVs around, any looking in from neighbor regions, or if it should be running full speed for a bit
[16:33] Simon Linden: So as soon as you TP in, it's back to full speed
[16:33] Simon Linden: ...and I mean as soon as you contact the region, not after you're rezzed
[16:33] Draconis Neurocam: What is simulation time out of curiousity?
[16:33] Rex Cronon: imho if your sim runs at only 10fps than you should get a discount. for helping speed other sims up:)
[16:33] Simon Linden: You do Rex -- yours is better when you're online
[16:34] Simon Linden: But I'm not a product or marketing guy, so if you can find one of them, feel free to let 'em know :)
[16:34] Rex Cronon: not really. especially if i happen to be online at the same time with a lot of other people on different sims
[16:35] Simon Linden: It's basically like automatically dimming the lights when nobody is in the room
[16:35] Nalates Urriah: Andrew, did your engineer contact ever get back to you on the size of the asset DB? And may be the size of the garbage pile?
[16:36] Rex Cronon: u see if u dim the lights when nobody is in, than u pay less for electricity:)
[16:36] Draconis Neurocam: Simon what is simulation time?
[16:36] Simon Linden: I'll check, 1 sec...
[16:36] Andrew Linden: Yes Nalates. The final asset system size was 192 TB
[16:36] Draconis Neurocam: wow
[16:36] Nalates Urriah: wow
[16:36] Andrew Linden: so, if that was 15% of what it used to be... it used to be 1.3 PB
[16:36] Nalates Urriah: double wow
[16:37] DogWomble Dollinger wonders if he can fit 192tb worth of hrad drives in his PC....
[16:37] Nalates Urriah: Any idea what percent of that was genitals? .... (teasing ... I don't want to know)
[16:37] Vincent Nacon: I'm not surprised by that.... I knew people were uploading too much without some decent care
[16:38] Ardy Lay: What? Did some garbage collection happen? I guess I missed something significant.
[16:38] Rex Cronon: what happened with all those terrabytes?
[16:38] Vincent Nacon: but might be a good time to have some sort of recycling/trashing for asset that haven't been used by anyone over some amount of time
[16:38] Ashiri Sands: And here I am thinking 10k items is too many in inventory
[16:38] DogWomble Dollinger: they were terrafied and ran away? :P
[16:38] Andrew Linden: Actually the main source of the garbage assets were things that were taken to inventory trash, and then deleted
[16:38] Rex Cronon: i think i know. that is where all the missing inventory things went?
[16:38] Simon Linden: Draconis - it's doing some work dealing with the land/wind/cloud layers, running some scripts, and a bunch of small bookkeeping jobs like returning objects, checking for dead connections and such
[16:39] Andrew Linden: and never given out, stored in other objects, or otherwise referenced
[16:39] Sopherian Yumako: my inventory has 89.812 items and i use almost everything of it lol
[16:39] Rex Cronon: wait. it down' want my unsused assed to be trashed
[16:39] Andrew Linden: so, not from too many "uploads" from the viewer
[16:39] Rex Cronon: unused assets*
[16:39] User Group Visitor Detector: Falcon Linden is at the user group
[16:39] Draconis Neurocam: that explains a fair bit simon, as to why net time and simulation time jump in tandem
[16:39] Visitor Detector: Returning visitor to your land: Falcon Linden
[16:39] Andrew Linden: such as textures, mesh assets, and notecards
[16:40] Simon Linden: Right, I think simulation covers a bunch of smaller buckets
[16:41] Falcon Linden: Today I don't get a hello? Every other time I come I get a hello, but not today? :P
[16:41] Ardy Lay: HELLO!
[16:41] DogWomble Dollinger: hi falcon
[16:42] Ashiri Sands: hello
[16:42] Kallista Destiny: Ave Falcon
[16:42] Vincent Nacon: heya
[16:42] Rex Cronon: hi falcon
[16:42] DogWomble Dollinger: you didn't come up in my mystitool thingibob
[16:42] Falcon Linden: That's more like it!
[16:42] Sopherian Yumako: HAI2U!!!1!
[16:42] Falcon Linden: oh yeah
[16:42] Ardy Lay: I generally set stuff temp instead of using "delete".
[16:42] Nalates Urriah: zOMG its Falcon!!!!
[16:42] Falcon Linden: Is that a better entrance?
[16:42] DogWomble Dollinger says
[16:42] Rex Cronon: weren't u in ninja mode:)
[16:42] Falcon Linden: :P
[16:42] DogWomble Dollinger: HEWO!!
[16:42] Vincent Nacon: no
[16:42] DogWomble Dollinger: to falcon
[16:42] Squirrel Wood: If you had wings...
[16:42] Falcon Linden: hehe
[16:42] Vincent Nacon: you need more explosive enterance
[16:43] Falcon Linden: I was reading some of the blog posts about the LI changes and noticed that no one has picked up on the sculpt policy yet
[16:43] DogWomble Dollinger: the sculpt policy?
[16:43] Falcon Linden: Namely that sculpts will be capped at 2.0 streaming cost, not 1.0. (Note, that's a CAP, so if they were less than 2.0 in new accounting before, they'll still be less than 2.0)
[16:43] Nalates Urriah: ?
[16:43] Ashiri Sands: A friend did mention it in skype to me =3D^_^=3D
[16:44] Nalates Urriah: Oh that one... I just haven't gotten there yet
[16:44] Falcon Linden: Nal: no worries, just wanted to make sure it hadn't slipped by unnoticed only to rear its head on release
[16:44] Ashiri Sands: Is it "The End of the World" again?
[16:44] Rex Cronon: i meant to ask u falcon. when u say streaming cost of 2, does that mean that when i select a sculptie it will say it is made of 2 prims?
[16:44] Falcon Linden: Ashiri: Naah, it's the Beginning. Costs go down this time :)
[16:44] Vincent Nacon: lie!
[16:44] Vincent Nacon: it's the end!
[16:44] DogWomble Dollinger: ashiri more like "it's the end of the world as we know it, but we'll be fine"
[16:44] Nalates Urriah: I'll have yesterdays and todays news stuff out tomorrow.
[16:45] Vincent Nacon: but of course.... the end started when M Linden got hired
[16:45] Falcon Linden: Nal: Huh, thought I'd mentioned this last week. Maybe not.
[16:45] Squirrel Wood: you did mention it+
[16:45] DogWomble Dollinger: vincent i thought it was when viewer 2 came out
[16:45] Vincent Nacon: oh that too
[16:45] DogWomble Dollinger: yay! i reset the clo9ck thingy! :P
[16:45] Falcon Linden: I thought it was about 13.7 billion years ago
[16:46] Squirrel Wood: it basically fixes these things being assigned a way high streaming cost when it should not be.
[16:46] Nalates Urriah: I think last week it was undecided... but I could be wrong.
[16:46] Falcon Linden: Doesn't much matter. It's decided now. :)
[16:46] Ardy Lay: What was jacking up the streaming cost?
[16:47] Falcon Linden: Ardy: it wasn't a bug, it was just a formula that, upon further consideration, we decided was not appropriate
[16:47] Ardy Lay: 1024 x 1024 sculpt maps? ;-)
[16:47] DogWomble Dollinger: now there's a feature request
[16:47] DogWomble Dollinger: 10240x10240 textures :P
[16:47] Falcon Linden: i.e., when it was first implemented, it was actually calculating a triangle-based render weight, which for meshes is a good measure of streaming cost, but not for prims
[16:48] Ardy Lay: Sculpted proms would still only use 33 x 33 of the data.
[16:48] Ardy Lay: -proms +prims
[16:48] Rex Cronon: i would like to reques a 2x2 sculptie:)
[16:48] DogWomble Dollinger: oh i dunno
[16:48] Falcon Linden: I'd like to add a "Bake this sculpt/prim linkset into a single mesh"
[16:48] Falcon Linden: ferature
[16:48] Rex Cronon: u can't possibly say that the streaming cost of it is 2.0:)
[16:48] DogWomble Dollinger: i think a meeting prom would be fun ardy
[16:48] Vincent Nacon: you mean a sprite, Rex?
[16:48] Rex Cronon: no. a 2x2 scultpie
[16:49] Falcon Linden: I don't see why anyone would continue building with sculpts these days
[16:49] Falcon Linden: other than the LI affect of meshes
[16:49] Yuzuru Jewell: Is the new cost applied to all the objects?
[16:49] Ardy Lay is gonna run off an sculpt an EEPROM.
[16:49] Squirrel Wood: for some stuff, sculpts are the better solution still.
[16:49] Falcon Linden: yuzuru: no, only those that opt into the new accounting by using a physics shape type other than PRIM or by including a mesh in the linkset
[16:49] Rex Cronon: since u can't upload a mesh unless u have POIF:(
[16:50] Falcon Linden: We promise not to charge your credit without your purchasing something....or at least, I assume we do since I think that would be fraud. :P
[16:50] Rex Cronon: i don't want to sell them, just for myself
[16:50] Falcon Linden: charge your credit card*
[16:50] Squirrel Wood: LL keeps charging me CC once per year :p
[16:51] Falcon Linden: hmm, this is not the most exciting UG I've attended.
[16:51] Falcon Linden: I've been thinking about adding an llGetStaticPath() method for pathfinding
[16:51] Ardy Lay: Rex, I thought you were asking for a discount about half an hour ago.
[16:51] Squirrel Wood: I could rez an acorn house if I can find it :p
[16:51] Nalates Urriah: More dancing girls?
[16:51] Liisa Runo: SVC-7910
[16:51] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7910
[#SVC-7910] Can't move object because of an unknown reason 4194304=20
[16:51] Rex Cronon: discount? for what?
[16:52] Yuzuru Jewell: Does the number of the faces of the object influence new cost?
[16:52] Ardy Lay: Rex, for idle regions.
[16:52] Falcon Linden: that would give you a path from point A to point B, but with the caveat that it assumes that there are no movable obstacles in the region
[16:52] Falcon Linden: Liisa: I think any distance underground is too deep
[16:52] Falcon Linden: we were probably just calculating it wrong before :P
[16:52] Liisa Runo: why?
[16:52] Falcon Linden: andrew would know more
[16:52] Ashiri Sands: unknown reason... sounds like a BOFH kind of error
[16:52] Falcon Linden: because things aren't supposed to be under ground?
[16:52] Liisa Runo: why?
[16:53] Liisa Runo: tell that to a mole
[16:53] Rex Cronon: i was just making an observation. that if u use less of something u should be getting it at a lower price. it seems to me that is logical
[16:53] Squirrel Wood: You cannot move due to some stray sunrays tickling the memory banks in your computer :p
[16:53] Falcon Linden: Rex: I use very little gold and very few diamonds. Should I get those at a discount? :)
[16:54] Falcon Linden: No, I think what you really want is the ability to have mesh terrain above the builtin terrain
[16:54] Falcon Linden: I think the "too deeply underground" issue came up from it being too easy to lose objects under the heightfield
[16:54] Rex Cronon: if u buy a big diamond and somebody take a bit off it...
[16:55] Squirrel Wood: mesh terrain? I cannot agree with that. It would ruin my business :p
[16:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[16:55] Andrew Linden: The "too deep underground" check was from back when we were worried about people losing objects under the heightfield
[16:55] Falcon Linden: Squirrely: adapt or die :) (Though really we don't have any plans to support mesh terrain at present)
[16:55] Andrew Linden: before we had parcel accounting and some tools for keeping track of what was on your land
[16:55] Liisa Runo: while removing the error spam, can add exeption for vehicles. while seated, can drill deep
[16:56] Vincent Nacon: muhaha! Falcon, I used to say that few years ago till one linden told me to stop
[16:56] Falcon Linden: if andrew is fine with changing it, I'm fine
[16:56] Vincent Nacon: Adapt or Die
[16:56] Falcon Linden: Vincent: eh?
[16:56] Andrew Linden: Yeah, I think we could change it.
[16:56] Ardy Lay: Can't imagine what you are drilling into down there. Looks quite vacant to me.
[16:56] Falcon Linden: Andrew: we could make the broadphase boundaries report the object and return it
[16:56] Vincent Nacon: could or should?
[16:57] Liisa Runo: i know atleast one other creator who has toys that need to go underground. now broken
[16:57] Vincent Nacon whispers: I'll go with "should
[16:57] Andrew Linden: "should" I think
[16:57] Vincent Nacon: however... what about the terrian texture layers?
[16:58] Vincent Nacon: I know it's based on height range but maybe allow user to "vertex paint" them?
[16:58] Squirrel Wood: terrain textures could use an upgrade to 1024 textures.
[16:58] Vincent Nacon: that too
[16:58] Squirrel Wood: since you can only has four of them
[16:58] Squirrel Wood: that should not be much of an issue
[16:58] Vincent Nacon: but I'm more interested in vertex painting
[16:58] Nalates Urriah: Yeah terrain 1024's help in OSgrid
[16:59] Nalates Urriah: Me too
[16:59] Falcon Linden: I'd say that what we really need for terrain is detail textures
[16:59] Vincent Nacon: vertex paint is a term for terrain knowing the difference between surfaces it should render which textures
[16:59] Ardy Lay: Andrew, do you remember how large the terrain textures were in 1.0?
[16:59] Falcon Linden: not just 1024x1024 textures
[17:00] Andrew Linden: No Ardy, I don't remember us changing the texture sizes.
[17:00] Falcon Linden: you'd get vertex painting as part of mesh terrain if that were ever provided
[17:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[17:00] User Group Visitor Detector: Stopped tracking visitors and sending email report
[17:00] Vincent Nacon: Ardy, SL started out with 2048 x 2048
[17:00] Vincent Nacon: err... wait... Falcon... how?
[17:00] DogWomble Dollinger: yeah, though i think the 2048z2048 textures are rare
[17:00] Squirrel Wood: sl started with 2048, that got capped to 1024, any 2048 textures being downsized.
[17:00] Vincent Nacon: it's not supported in DAE
[17:00] DogWomble Dollinger: i certainly haven't seen any though
[17:01] Nalates Urriah: I think mesh terrain where I could control the textures would be ideal. Even if it was only 8 textures. for a 256x256m terrain
[17:01] Rex Cronon: we migth be getting vertex painting of the terrain?
[17:01] Squirrel Wood: and now if you upload a 511x254 texture, it will be scaled to 256x128 ionstead of going for the nearer power of 2
[17:01] Andrew Linden: We are'n
[17:01] Vincent Nacon: yeah but he's talking about in a mesh that we upload with
[17:01] Vincent Nacon: .... I think
[17:02] Andrew Linden: We aren't working on painting the terrain right now.
[17:02] Falcon Linden: this is all pie in the sky anyway
[17:02] Vincent Nacon: either way... not supported in DAE
[17:02] Vincent Nacon: yup
[17:02] Falcon Linden: like Andrew said, no terrain improvements are scheduled
[17:02] Vincent Nacon: Ardy, you can find the old terrain texture in library that was in 2048 texture size
[17:02] Andrew Linden: But if we *sent* the terrain to the viewer as a mesh, then we'd have to supply per-point texture coordinates
[17:02] Rex Cronon: would be cool if we could make caves in the terrain...
[17:02] Nalates Urriah: I heard they were talking about bake fail the other day. Any things you can say?
[17:03] Andrew Linden: and would have an opportunity for adding better texture handling
[17:03] Andrew Linden: (at the moment we send the terrain data to you in a lossy compression format, not ideal)
[17:03] Andrew Linden: er... that is, "if we were to send the terrain to the viewer as mesh data..."
[17:03] Falcon Linden: It'd probably be easier to just add terrain meshes than to send the heightfield to the viewer as a mesh
[17:04] Vincent Nacon: yeah
[17:04] Rex Cronon: we could have moles digging tunnels:)
[17:04] Vincent Nacon: still need to figure out how to handle vertex painting as later future feature
[17:05] Vincent Nacon: or otherwise, more work down the road
[17:05] Andrew Linden: oh right, I've got to run... gotta be somewhere in less than an hour
[17:05] Vincent Nacon: or even never see it happen at all
[17:05] Rex Cronon: tc andrew
[17:05] Ardy Lay: Bye
[17:05] Vincent Nacon: take care all
[17:05] Andrew Linden: thanks for coming everyone
[17:05] Squirrel Wood: http://www.koinup.com/Torley/work/50642/ Muhaha!
[17:05] Rex Cronon: tc all those leaving
[17:05] Ashiri Sands: ty Andrew
[17:05] Nalates Urriah: Bye Andrew Thx
[17:06] Simon Linden: Thanks everyone for coming
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