Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2011.03.08

Simulator_User_Group
Prev 2011.03.04	Next 2011.03.11
== List of Speakers ==
Andrew Linden 	Ardy Lay 	Cummere Mayo
Daniel Voyager	Draconis Neurocam 	Fancy Greeter
Flip Idlemind 	Gooden Uggla 	Hope Dreier
Jessica Lyon 	Joke Bubble 	Jonathan Yap
Joshua Linden 	Joshy Aulder 	Kelly Linden
Latif Khalifa 	Luisa Bourgoin 	Nivi Snowpaw
Oskar Linden 	Qie Niangao 	reddot99 Republic
Rex Cronon 	Simon Linden 	Stickman
Stone Linden 	TankMaster Teichmann	Tomkin Euler
== Transcript ==
[12:00] Meeter: Welcome to the Server User Group
[12:00] Cummere Mayo: tell her theres lots of comments on vwr-24746 asking for an end to ash's trolling
[12:00] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24746
[#VWR-24746] RedZone Security violates TOS, exposes private information and is being misused
[12:00] Cummere Mayo: please
[12:00] Cummere Mayo: and ty
[12:01] Fancy Greeter: Oskar Linden has arrived!
[12:01] Cummere Mayo is in a very pissy mood sorry
[12:01] Cummere Mayo: emerald, it would be less spammy if ash and a coupel others didnt set out tiwht the stated intention of driving everyone off from wathcing that :)
[12:01] TankMaster Teichmann: lol oskar
[12:01] Draconis Neurocam: Hey Simon, Andrew and Oskar
[12:01] TankMaster Teichmann: nice AV
[12:02] Cummere Mayo: hello oskar, simon, andrew :)
[12:02] Simon Linden: Hello everyone
[12:02] Cummere Mayo: oskar your group title makes me laugh
[12:02] Latif Khalifa: hi Simon
[12:02] Andrew Linden: Simon, did we loose the landing point on this parcel?
[12:03] Simon Linden: yeah, I took it off because it messed up the quest for my Linden Bear
[12:03] Andrew Linden: oh ok
[12:03] Oskar Linden: glad u like it cummere
[12:03] Stickman: Speaking of landing point, the slurl on the Google calendar dumps you in the lake.
[12:03] Simon Linden: One step of the quest brought people back here, but because of the landing point, they didn't go where they should have
[12:03] Joshua Linden: Tournesol: back in the ancient times I ran the release team. Like, shut down the grid every Wednesday. Then I worked on a variety of experimental tech projects e.g. prototypes with third party tech), SL Enterprise, and the SL Web Viewer beta. Involved in standards work (OGP/VWRAP), and now I'm working a bit with the sim team (hence being here)
[12:03] Latif Khalifa: i hate forced tp points anyway :)
[12:04] Andrew Linden: Welcome Joshua Linden.
[12:04] reddot99 Republic: i actually have something completely unrelated to sl to ask you andrew, you said some time ago that you use matlab a lot, right?
[12:04] Joshua Linden: Cummere: Sue has heard your request and escalated it to the appropriate community manager types.
[12:04] Andrew Linden: I think we may also see an appearance by Stone Linden, who will be able to answer questions about inventory.
[12:04] Cummere Mayo: thank you and please pass my thanks to her as well :)
[12:04] Jonathan Yap: Good to see you here Joshua
[12:04] Andrew Linden: But he is AFK at the moment.
[12:04] Andrew Linden: I'll start with my news...
[12:05] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
[12:05] Andrew Linden: The Mangum channel (faster object delete) was promoted to the main channel this morning.
[12:05] Fancy Greeter: Stone Linden has arrived!
[12:06] Andrew Linden: So some people may notice a slight improvement in performance on rez+delete heavy regions.
[12:06] reddot99 Republic: that affect things that kill themselves?
[12:06] Andrew Linden: Alex Linden has verified with some metrics that one particular hot spot in the code has been attenuated.
[12:06] Flip Idlemind: Slight improvements are always better than no improvements (and a lot better than things that get worse)
[12:07] Andrew Linden: Yes reddot99, the performance gain may be measurable with large piles of temp-on-rez objects
[12:07] Cummere Mayo: slight improvements add up to big improvements very quickly
[12:07] Andrew Linden: otherwise it will be a mild background improvement
[12:07] Andrew Linden: but it will be on the entire grid after the RC channels are updated on Wed.
[12:08] Andrew Linden: Lessee... other things from previous UG meetings that I was supposed to address...
[12:08] Fancy Greeter: Stone Linden has arrived!
[12:08] Andrew Linden: Pauline Darkfury asked if the servers do UDP checksums on the NIC hardware. I've forwarded the question to our #ops channel
[12:09] Andrew Linden: but have not yet heard back. One of them was going to actually try to figure that out.
[12:09] Andrew Linden: Stickman sent me mail a while ago with suggestions on how to improve avatar animations.
[12:09] Stickman: Aye.
[12:10] Andrew Linden: I've forwarded that to Richard and hope to talk to him about it by this Friday.
[12:10] Stickman: Cool, thanks.
[12:10] Andrew Linden: I have not yet been able to look into the time that is showing up under "Phys Other Time".
[12:11] Andrew Linden: Maybe later this week.
[12:11] Andrew Linden: Hrm... I think that is all from my notes.
[12:11] Andrew Linden: Ok, so last week some of you were asking about avatar inventory.
[12:11] MoDesign Remote HUD (global) whispers: Emerald Seaside left the key.
[12:12] TankMaster Teichmann: :)
[12:12] Stone Linden: lol
[12:12] Andrew Linden: I think Stone Linden is around here somewhere now
[12:12] Stone Linden: tx
[12:12] TankMaster Teichmann: np
[12:12] Stone Linden: my spacemouse went crazy
[12:12] Andrew Linden: and he can answer some of your questions
[12:12] Stone Linden: and i started yawing wildly, and stuck in the house below
[12:12] Andrew Linden: and talk about the work he is doing there.
[12:12] Andrew Linden: Go ahead Stone.
[12:12] Stone Linden: are we mostly test here?
[12:12] Stone Linden: text
[12:12] TankMaster Teichmann: yes
[12:12] Rex Cronon: stone. r u the lindens responsible for inventory?
[12:12] Jonathan Yap: all text
[12:12] Andrew Linden: Yes, all text.
[12:13] Hope Dreier: all text
[12:13] Stone Linden: cool
[12:13] Stickman: <3 text
[12:13] Stone Linden: so the document for inventory capabilities is here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Inventory_API
[12:13] Jessica Lyon: !
[12:14] Cummere Mayo: hey stone
[12:14] Stickman: With in regards to inventory, the items listed there are all that is available to the end user? Is that also all of the information that is stored?
[12:14] Stone Linden: these are now always enabled on the sims, and starting with viewer 2.5.1 they're in the viewers now
[12:14] Andrew Linden: The "Inventory Capabilities" system is going to replace the old UDP inventory pipeline.
[12:14] TankMaster Teichmann: says in 2.6 and above, so its not in 2.5.1?
[12:14] Stone Linden: it is, due to a branch merge surprise.
[12:14] Jonathan Yap: I think 2.6 got renamed to 2.5.1?
[12:15] Stickman: Surprise!
[12:15] Cummere Mayo: its not the pipeline thats driving me nuts.... its the 20k in lost or perminately corrupted inventory items on each of my two main avis :(
[12:15] Stone Linden: the inventory database are the metadata for assets.
[12:16] Stone Linden: if the asset is corrupted in some way, then having nice metadata won't fix or break it either way.
[12:16] Stone Linden: if you have a folder that's not loading, that's another story
[12:16] TankMaster Teichmann: jonathan, i get that impression, but im not sure, so thats why im asking :)
[12:16] Cummere Mayo: I have over 10k items that simply disappeared and wont coem back
[12:16] Cummere Mayo: and another 10k that corrupted into shapes
[12:17] Flip Idlemind: So is my inventory in danger if I'm not using Viewer 2?
[12:17] Stone Linden: probably the biggest change here is that folders loaded via inventory capabilities will load all-at-once or not-at-all.
[12:17] Rex Cronon: this makes it look like would be possible to access your inventory from a broswer window:)
[12:17] Fancy Greeter: Kelly Linden has arrived!
[12:17] Joshy Aulder: going to bed, night
[12:17] Cummere Mayo: and instead of leaving them when she couldnt fix them Louise i think it was deleted them >< *sighs*
[12:17] Rex Cronon: tc
[12:17] Flip Idlemind: Bai Bubbleface
[12:17] Stone Linden: flip: no your inventory is not in danger.
[12:18] TankMaster Teichmann: how long would you figure a 100k inventory will take to load?
[12:18] Daniel Voyager: hey everyone :)
[12:18] Rex Cronon: hey
[12:18] Stone Linden: this is strictly about how we load the inventory panel view, getting the data from our servers to your viewer.
[12:18] Stone Linden: when transmitting the data over UDP, a dropped packet becomes "missing invenotry"
[12:18] Stickman: Thanks for llGetObjectDetails(), Flip. I was looking for that earlier and couldn't remember under what name it was put.
[12:18] Stone Linden: and is the root of the constant advice to clear your caches and relog.
[12:19] Stone Linden: the idea is to try loading that folder again, and hope all of the packets make it.
[12:19] Jessica Lyon: how much testing have you guys done with really large inventories on this system?
[12:19] Stone Linden: it's not an efficient approach, HTTP is much better suited.
[12:19] reddot99 Republic: couldnt something be done at the end to test whether or not everything made it?
[12:19] Stone Linden: jessica: single huge folders will be limited in size.
[12:19] Flip Idlemind: And the new capabilities fix / improve "missing inventory" problems?
[12:19] Jessica Lyon: limited? how so?
[12:20] Stone Linden: however huge inventories overall work much better now.
[12:20] Cummere Mayo: how limited?
[12:20] Oskar Linden: accounts with really large inventories are part of our inv testing suite
[12:20] Stone Linden: flip; yes, the missing inventory items probelm is what we're looking to fix here.
[12:20] reddot99 Republic: that for existing huge folders or only new ones?
[12:20] Stone Linden: both.
[12:20] Cummere Mayo: what happens to existing ones?
[12:21] reddot99 Republic: will existing ones be broken up?
[12:21] Stone Linden: i don't have a number yet, probably in the ballpark of 10's of thousand of items.
[12:21] Joke Bubble: hi.
[12:21] Rex Cronon: i guess u won't be able to have inventories with more than 1024 items. or something like that
[12:21] Jessica Lyon: limited in what way? lost content by perceived loss?
[12:21] Joke Bubble: i think i late
[12:21] Luisa Bourgoin: are there any statistics about residents inventory sizes? I heard 100k but I know that is near peak
[12:21] Stone Linden: we don't have published stats on that
[12:21] Cummere Mayo: i know someone who claims to have over 240k items in her inventory
[12:21] reddot99 Republic: 50761 fetched so far, that sounds about right
[12:21] Jessica Lyon: I would suspect most 'large' inventories are between 60-80k
[12:21] Cummere Mayo: shes a huge content creator
[12:21] Rex Cronon: what if u already have folders that thave over max nr of items?
[12:22] Cummere Mayo: what would this mean for her?
[12:22] Oskar Linden: our 'large' inv test users have between 150k and 300k
[12:22] TankMaster Teichmann: ah
[12:22] Stickman: That's promising.
[12:22] Jessica Lyon: nice, so.. can you define "limited"?
[12:22] Luisa Bourgoin: stick below 150K :)
[12:22] Stone Linden: the folder will load up to the limit number of items, and remaining ones won't show up in the viewer. you still own then, they aren't lost, but they will be hidden until the folder size is reduced.
[12:23] Cummere Mayo: i should have 80k but i started boxing stuff after i lsot 1/4th of it...
[12:23] Stone Linden: that applies on a single-folder-basis
[12:23] reddot99 Republic: does it depend on sorting orders?
[12:23] Jessica Lyon: so this will cause a lot of percieved loss then
[12:23] Qie Niangao: would be nice to get a "more" flag of some sort
[12:23] Jessica Lyon: especially, scripts folder and objects folders I suspect
[12:23] Nivi Snowpaw: The folder should clearly show "More items hidden" or something.
[12:23] Rex Cronon: a flag would be nice
[12:23] Cummere Mayo: can there be a tag to let you know theres more hidden?
[12:24] Hope Dreier: Will there be some sort of nitificication tht folder X is too full?
[12:24] Latif Khalifa: hmm, that sounds unfortunate
[12:24] Qie Niangao: (or even a calculation, viewer-side, that there *might* be more hidden)
[12:24] Rex Cronon: like an exploding box:)
[12:24] Stone Linden: toy: that's be a great idea. I will look into that for a future viewer release.
[12:24] Flip Idlemind: Is the Objects folder a "folder"? Do I need to start organizing stuff into folders or risk appearing to lose stuff out of my objects folder?
[12:24] Stone Linden: and i will look into how to report that in the capabilities api so that viewers can consult the response body and see that they got X items, but there are Y more not fetched yet.
[12:25] Flip Idlemind: Same question for Notecards, Gestures, etc.
[12:25] Stone Linden: yes, they are folders
[12:25] Stone Linden: please do not reorganize things without actually seeing what happens first.
[12:25] Latif Khalifa: it's quite common to have a lot of items in Objects, Notecards, Ladnmarks
[12:25] Latif Khalifa: what's the limit on per folder items?
[12:25] Rex Cronon: will the max value be all the sub-folders and their contents?
[12:25] Cummere Mayo: so if everything goes to http now does this mean we might FINALLY see an out of world web interface in the future?
[12:26] Stone Linden: again, please repeat after me: this is about loading the inventory sidepanel, it is not about what you own, or things getting lost or deleted in any way.
[12:26] Luisa Bourgoin: oh, landmarks ... we ned something to check where they are pointing at, now ... so often into void space
[12:26] Oskar Linden: this is about loading the inventory sidepanel, it is not about what you own, or things getting lost or deleted in any way.
[12:26] Stickman: This is about loading the inventory sidepanel, it is not... wait, were we really supposed to say that?
[12:26] Andrew Linden: ah yes, the web interface for browsing inventory. is it possible? is it in the plans?
[12:26] Stone Linden: cummere: no comment on future interfaces, though i personally agree it'd be a nice feature :)
[12:26] Oskar Linden: he's very serious stickman
[12:26] Cummere Mayo: ive had a jira for that forever
[12:26] Luisa Bourgoin: nono, LMs don't get "lost" ... they ... err ... "timeout"
[12:26] Cummere Mayo: and was told work had started then gotten lost
[12:27] Jessica Lyon: it'll be perceived loss.. not actual loss
[12:27] Cummere Mayo: that would really help us sort and get rid of stuff
[12:27] Stickman: Someone needs to make a TPV that lets you go through your inventory and see a 3D rotating version of items you click on, with stats and inventory for it.
[12:27] Flip Idlemind: Perceived loss could cause actual panic
[12:27] Jessica Lyon: but to the average user both are equal to the same
[12:27] Latif Khalifa: Stone, if the viewer doesn't show full folder contents, that violatest the principle of least astonishment in a big way. Are you saying that there is a max number of items a folder will show in the side panel?
[12:28] Stone Linden: by moving from UDP to HTTP, I expect to reduce the perceived loss problem dramatically.
[12:28] Stone Linden: latif: yes.
[12:28] Joshua Linden: Stickman: that would be awesome. Unfortunately, you need to rez objects to get the geometry
[12:28] reddot99 Republic: what about older veiwers? will they recieve appropriate responses to continue to display inventory
[12:28] Latif Khalifa: that's simply bad design
[12:28] Cummere Mayo: stickman thats part of my web inventory suggestion ><
[12:28] Stone Linden: as a test, Maestro and I created a folder with 150k items.
[12:28] Luisa Bourgoin: Stickman, perhaps you can rez/snapshot/store items to create a cache that is visualized isnide viewer addons?
[12:28] Stone Linden: the inventory API response body was over 140MB
[12:28] Latif Khalifa: so what's the limit?
[12:28] Jessica Lyon: older viewers that continue to use UDP will continue to have the same issues they have currently.
[12:28] Stickman: Double the size of your inventory by creating snapshots of each item. Brilliant! :D
[12:28] Jonathan Yap: Haven't we been on http inventory loading for a while now, at least in test region channels?
[12:29] reddot99 Republic: lol, stickman
[12:29] reddot99 Republic: 64x64 images, i think would be nice, like icons on a desktop
[12:29] Stone Linden: In January of this year, I changed the capability names from FetchInventory, et al, to FetchInventory2, et al.
[12:29] Rex Cronon: how can 150k items take 140mb when u have only uuids?
[12:29] Luisa Bourgoin: you would store these thumbs locally
[12:29] Stone Linden: this dropped support for the inventory api capabilities for viewers 1.23-2.5.0
[12:29] Stone Linden: because they were buggy
[12:30] Cummere Mayo: oh is this the old system that was 140mb?
[12:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[12:30] Stone Linden: then I enabled the FetchInventory2 capabilities full time, so that anybody who wanted to experiment with them could begin using those caps right away.
[12:30] Latif Khalifa: What's the per folder fetch limit for the cap?
[12:30] Joke Bubble: my friend is always got local bug on her inventory
[12:30] Jessica Lyon: Could I ask, 'why' you have a limit on folder contents? what is the reasoning behind it?
[12:31] Rex Cronon: viewe 1.23 is dead:(
[12:31] Stone Linden: latif: tentatively, it's in the thousands. I still have to do a little more analysis and run it past a product manager to set the number in Stone ;)
[12:31] Joshua Linden: Rex: look at http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Inventory_API for the data structure associated with each item. It's slightly under 1k of data once you count all those bitmaps and UUIDs, and serialization overhead
[12:31] Cummere Mayo groans
[12:31] Stickman: Viewer 1.23 remains the only viewer with the features I need to use Second Life, unfortunately.
[12:31] Stone Linden: Jessica: because a folder with 100MB of data in it won't load in a reasonable timeframe.
[12:31] Rex Cronon: thanks
[12:31] Latif Khalifa: Stone, it needs to be in thousands... run a check on peoples Objects folder for insstance
[12:32] Kelly Linden: josh: is that compressed and/or binary format?
[12:32] Joshua Linden: I believe Stone said he was going to do just that
[12:32] Latif Khalifa: i bet there are manu people with a few k items there
[12:32] Stone Linden: I'm aiming for a limit of about 10MB of response data per folder.
[12:32] Jessica Lyon: I see, could it be possible to have that limit... once reached fall back to UDP for the remainder of it's contents?
[12:32] Joshua Linden: tehKellz: dunno - Stone, how are we serializing the LLSD for this cap?
[12:32] Latif Khalifa: xml
[12:32] Stone Linden: Josh: I think the viewer is using XML.
[12:32] Luisa Bourgoin: this FetchInventory2 thingy doesn't contain any thumbs
[12:32] Latif Khalifa: bandwith waster ;)
[12:32] Hope Dreier: Excuse me? Stone ? what you are saying is that you have unilaterally and without any warning killed all V1 bqsed viewere, completely?
[12:32] Stone Linden: Luisa: thumbs?
[12:32] Luisa Bourgoin: small pics of item
[12:32] Stone Linden: Hope: no, I did not say that.
[12:32] Stone Linden: Luisa: we don't have thumbnails.
[12:33] Latif Khalifa: Stone, mesh assets use binary LLSD + zlib for quite small transfer sizes.
[12:33] Latif Khalifa: perhaps something to look into?
[12:33] Joshua Linden: in theory we do content negotiation, don't we? some plucky viewer developer could make the code that accesses the cap request application/llsd+binary
[12:33] Andrew Linden: V1 based viewers can continue to use the UDP pipeline for inventory.
[12:33] Stone Linden: Hope: we added support for the original FetchInventory capabilities in viewer 1.23 and beyond. However that code was buggy, so we had it turned off most of the time, and we were using UDP.
[12:33] Stone Linden: Now, we have FetchInventory2 over HTTP, and we have it turned on all the time.
[12:33] Luisa Bourgoin: on prims it's egg&hen trouble (you need to rez) but on clothes, these would be drawable on server side (on request)
[12:34] Stone Linden: If there's a buggy Viewer, we'll put out a fix, as will TPVs, but we won't turn the service off.
[12:34] Joshua Linden: latif: can you file a JIRA to investigate using binary LLSD for this cap?
[12:34] Joshua Linden: assign to me?
[12:34] Stone Linden: Did that clarify for you, Hope?
[12:34] Latif Khalifa: Josh, sure
[12:35] Jessica Lyon: I see, could it be possible to have that limit... once reached fall back to UDP for the remainder of it's contents?
[12:35] Draconis Neurocam: 10,7 k rounded figures from the data you gave for 10 megs
[12:35] Jessica Lyon: rather than not allow users to get to the rest of their inventory?
[12:35] Stone Linden: Jessica: maybe, it's something we'll have to iterate on in future viewers.
[12:35] reddot99 Republic: could do that veiwerside probably or would have to
[12:35] Hope Dreier: Sort of, what you are saying is the HTTP get is now, without warning, Broken for V1 based viewers. For some reasonable value of Broken.
[12:35] Jessica Lyon: ty
[12:35] Rex Cronon: is going 2 be quite laggy if u have 2 download 140mb each time u look at your inventory:(
[12:36] reddot99 Republic: i dont think it ever worked hope
[12:36] Stone Linden: Rex: that's why we have a cache.
[12:36] Cummere Mayo: okay stone... AFTER the pipeline is changed and limits set blah blah blah... are there plans to fix actualy losses and corruptions?
[12:36] Latif Khalifa: inventory is cached, only folders that have changed since the last time get downloaded
[12:36] Stone Linden: I look forward to dramatically reducing the number of times we have to advise people to clear cache and relog.
[12:36] Hope Dreier: Works pretty well in the latest Beta Phoenix. (927)
[12:36] Rex Cronon: ok that is better
[12:37] Latif Khalifa: that's standard support respone :P "you're ussing tpv sorry," or "clear cache and relog" :P
[12:37] Luisa Bourgoin: from my experience: I seldom clear cache. it's usually not needed on my everyday SL
[12:37] Rex Cronon: can u upload the cached inventory?
[12:37] Luisa Bourgoin: Latif, the BOFH got that flip stack of cards on desk :)
[12:37] Cummere Mayo: yeah support has gone back to asking about viewers and account details for all sim / server related crap again
[12:38] Cummere Mayo: why do i need to be on v2 to request a sim restart?
[12:38] Cummere Mayo: or report that the asset server is failing
[12:38] Luisa Bourgoin is still a v1 rebell
[12:38] Stone Linden: Cummere: no, I don't plan to work on loss issues. I'm working on the perceived loss issues. I apologize if there's something really lost from your inventory.
[12:38] Latif Khalifa: i wish they wre BOFH ;) that implies competence :)
[12:38] Rex Cronon: so in theory u should be able to browse your inventory withouth loging in. that is if is cached
[12:38] Cummere Mayo: stone users are seeign REAL losses in the 10k+ range
[12:39] reddot99 Republic: what did i miss in the last 2 or 3 minutes? i got disconnected
[12:39] Cummere Mayo: and we're getting from Lousia or whatever her name is snotty "sorry but it happened to me too" answers
[12:39] Simon Linden: We solved all the problems
[12:39] Joshua Linden: But only for avs that were present
[12:39] Latif Khalifa: ;)
[12:39] Jessica Lyon: My concern here is that.. by having such a limit, it will cause more perceived loss than it fixes for people with a lot of items in obects folder, notecards, gestures etc.
[12:39] Jessica Lyon: I understand the reasoning behind it
[12:40] Andrew Linden: Cummere, I might be able to investigate a claimed loss of 10k+ inventory items... if there were a recent report, with some details
[12:40] reddot99 Republic: will search be able to find the hidden items?
[12:40] Cummere Mayo: andrew look at all the inventory related tickets closed on me
[12:40] Stone Linden: Cummere: if it's perceived, and I can drop the incidence of problem reports way down, then we can take the remaining reports and escalate them further.
[12:40] Qie Niangao: Naive question: Is there any hope of a script being able to access and digest what's returned by this cap?
[12:40] Joshua Linden: Search, unfortunately, still requires pulling inventory down, then searches the local cache
[12:40] Latif Khalifa: reddot99 no, the viewrer will not have info about them, they will get truncated
[12:40] Joshua Linden: A server-side search would be lovely, but that's not being worked on
[12:40] Gooden Uggla: how would one go about fixing the percieved loss of inventory? anything we can actually do about it?
[12:40] Andrew Linden: unfortunately, I don't have access to the support ticket system.
[12:41] reddot99 Republic: is that in the plans in any way?
[12:41] Andrew Linden: I'll have to ask around to get access.
[12:41] Cummere Mayo: okay remind me and ill try and copy paste them for you
[12:41] Latif Khalifa: Josh, how about addin reload contex menu option per folder that would force refetch from the server?
[12:41] Stone Linden: Gooden: background information: UDP stands for the Unreliable Datagram Protocol. It's designed for quickly transmitting data over the Internet without confirming that it was received.
[12:41] Gooden Uggla: yes stone
[12:41] Cummere Mayo facepalms
[12:41] Stone Linden: It is used for video, voice, and movement, because if you miss a video frame, it's no good to have it 2 seconds later.
[12:41] Ardy Lay: Hehe
[12:41] Stone Linden: Just drop it and go on.
[12:41] Stone Linden: However, we're using it for inventory loading right now.
[12:42] Latif Khalifa: Jessica, "reload" is something that phoenix/firestorm could add
[12:42] Stone Linden: So a dropped packet translates into perceived inventory loss.
[12:42] Gooden Uggla: in other words, the residents can't do anything
[12:42] Cummere Mayo facepaws again...
[12:42] Hope Dreier can tell that Stoen is an old timer I believe that it is now called "User Datagram Protocol"
[12:42] Stone Linden: By switching to HTTP over TCP, we have strong information about the success or failure of the data to be transmitted.
[12:42] Jessica Lyon: but, reload would still end up with the same limit/folder
[12:42] reddot99 Republic: lol, hope
[12:43] Latif Khalifa: Jessica, yes, it was not related to truncating big folders. Just something useful :)
[12:43] Cummere Mayo: yeah it actually would be useful
[12:43] Joshua Linden: Latif: in theory, anything that mutates inventory should notify the viewer to reload it anyway.
[12:44] Stone Linden: Jessica: If you have a too-large folder and only get the first few thousand items, you could move them into a new folder, then reload the first one. It'll get the next few thousand items.
[12:44] Latif Khalifa: yeah, but there are so many edge cases when viewer inv and server inv, get out of sync
[12:44] Joshua Linden: That said, bugs happen. :) You could file a viewer feature request in JIRA
[12:44] Cummere Mayo: would also be nice to have a delayed fetch too since one of the auses of storm-526 (i think thats the right number) is that everything tries to load at once
[12:44] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-526
[#STORM-526] Log out failure during Login causes loss of pending offers, including inventory
[12:44] Fancy Greeter: Oz Linden has arrived!
[12:44] TankMaster Teichmann: hiya Oz
[12:44] Cummere Mayo: hello oz
[12:44] Luisa Bourgoin: residents need to get more visually oriented access onto INV items. They are part of our identity. If you loose access/oversight there ... it wreckes the immersion experience
[12:44] Draconis Neurocam: Hello Oz
[12:44] Jessica Lyon: Stone, understood.. but to the average user.. it won't be understood.
[12:45] Rex Cronon: hello
[12:45] Cummere Mayo: im guessing about 90% of users wont understand
[12:45] Joshua Linden: Stone: to recap - the folder limit hasn't been decided yet and you need to gather stats to make sure it will affect a minimal number of users, right? And you'll be investigating approaches to eliminate this problem in future viewer revs, right?
[12:45] Stone Linden: Josh: correct.
[12:45] Nivi Snowpaw: Could you create an inventory count per folder and transmit it along with the data?
[12:45] Jessica Lyon: Don't get me wrong, I think it's fantastic what you've done. But the folder limit concerns me.. for the end users.
[12:45] Jonathan Yap: Currently inventory is cached but deleted on logout--would it help to keep items in cache?
[12:45] Nivi Snowpaw: So the viewer could see: 2100 items in folder, 1988 received.
[12:46] Nivi Snowpaw: Then request the missing items to be sent.
[12:46] reddot99 Republic: or 2100 in folder, 1988 shown
[12:46] reddot99 Republic: to prevent panic
[12:46] Nivi Snowpaw nods
[12:46] Hope Dreier: Jonathan, what about multipe machines used by hear person, You inventory could change significantly between sessions on a given machine.
[12:46] Joshua Linden: Stone: what's the best way for resis to provide feedback, like what Toy II and reddot99 are suggesting?
[12:47] Qie Niangao: (I actually like the *more* flag better than making it seamless. no benefit in hiding a performance re-transmit hog from the users)
[12:47] Stone Linden: It's already on my todo list. I painted a set of post-it notes to look like jiras.
[12:47] Joshua Linden: Hope: folder checksums are sent; the cache isn't completely trusted
[12:47] Fancy Greeter: Oz Linden has arrived!
[12:47] Stone Linden: You should see my desk, post its everywhere :)
[12:47] reddot99 Republic: lol
[12:47] Jonathan Yap: Hope, each inventory item has a unique UUID, so there would never be any conflict. There server would send you a list of uuids and your local cache would supply the rest of the data
[12:47] Cummere Mayo waves to oz
[12:48] Jonathan Yap: or the viewer would say "I need more info for this one"
[12:48] Gooden Uggla: stone needs a post- it intern
[12:48] Luisa Bourgoin: cache might be completely untrustable. someone could tinker arround with folders
[12:48] Cummere Mayo: i think stone needs an assistant ><
[12:48] reddot99 Republic: i want to see at least one of those postit notres
[12:48] Stone Linden: When the number is set, I'll make sure that it's announced
[12:48] Gooden Uggla: or an editor :)
[12:48] Cummere Mayo: someone to manage his post its, and plunk him over the head from time to time
[12:48] Stone Linden: I have a blog post pending about this
[12:48] Stone Linden: heh, i have enough of those managers already :)
[12:49] TankMaster Teichmann: :)
[12:49] Hope Dreier: hmmmmmmm..... perhaps a (last) session ID with time stamp for the inventory cache... no match means that the cache is not valid.
[12:49] Latif Khalifa: Josh: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25098
[12:49] JIRA-helper: [#VWR-25098] Investigate better serialization/compression method for the new inventory capabilities
[12:49] Nivi Snowpaw: So people can start organizing inventories ahead of time (yeah ... as if that would ever happen :D )
[12:49] Joshua Linden: Luisa: of course; the sim doesn't trust the client at all. Who knows what you've done to the data or code on your machine. But if you muck up your own client/data by monkeing with files, that's your own problem.
[12:49] Cummere Mayo: err shouldnt that have been an svc?
[12:49] Hope Dreier: Some of us tery to keep inventory organised
[12:49] Joshua Linden: Thanks Latif. I can move it to SVC if we need to implement content negotiation
[12:49] Cummere Mayo: i try and give up...
[12:50] Hope Dreier: Oh is there going to be a limit of 1000 sub folders per folder?
[12:50] Stone Linden: Folks, let's not redesign the viewer's caches here; we have this system out now, and it's working well for a vast majority. For those with some super huge folders, we'll talk about how to handle it.
[12:50] Latif Khalifa: yeah i guess it's both vwr/svc didn't know where :)
[12:50] reddot99 Republic: andrew, i have question for you directly, not related to bugs of any sort, heh, you said at somepoint you used matlab a good bit, what do you do with it? both in connection with the servers and/or veiwer code?
[12:50] Stone Linden: Hope: subfolder limits may apply, too, but item limits are the more pressing problem.
[12:50] Rex Cronon: what if i want to mod my cached inventory offline and upload the changes?
[12:50] Qie Niangao sends up a flare in Kelly's general direction: "So, can my *script* access this cap to see the inventory structure for my AV?"
[12:51] Hope Dreier: nods, was just wondering..
[12:51] Luisa Bourgoin: Quie, maybe you need to redirect through some proxy cgI ?
[12:51] Andrew Linden: reddot99, I sometimes use Octave (GNU clone of matlab) for graphing data, or doing some simple scripts that are numerically heavy.
[12:51] Kelly Linden: Qie: maybe
[12:51] Stone Linden: Rex: you can write your own inventory client, but our viewer treats the server as authoritative and the cache and nice-to-have.
[12:51] Qie Niangao: I'm actually worrying about authentication of ownership
[12:51] Rex Cronon: ok
[12:51] Kelly Linden: Qie let me know how quickly you stack-heap collide.
[12:51] Andrew Linden: The last time I used it a lot was when I was working on computing mass properties in the Havok4 upgrade.
[12:51] reddot99 Republic: lol kelly
[12:52] Qie Niangao: oh, yeah, there is that
[12:52] Luisa Bourgoin: Quie: I looked through the wiki page given today and found no such thing as authorisation
[12:52] Stickman: What are the chances of the old inventory API being turned off, ever. To save on maintenance costs, or whatnot. And if so, what are the chances of it happening in, say, the next year or so?
[12:52] Rex Cronon: :)
[12:52] Joshua Linden: Good question, Stickman
[12:53] Jessica Lyon: what Stickman asked^
[12:53] Stone Linden: Stickman: we're not close enough to that bridge to know when or how we might cross it.
[12:53] Latif Khalifa: it would be nice if we had llGiveInventory that worked on agent inventory
[12:53] Stone Linden: Latif: llGiveInventory activates the IM system for transferring inventory
[12:53] Luisa Bourgoin slams the latch down on her inventory trunk!
[12:53] Latif Khalifa: Stone, I know, but it only work on task (object) inventory
[12:53] Cummere Mayo: us snowstorm devs and them stnowstorm lindens gotta get v2 in better shape before 1.23 can be trashed
[12:54] reddot99 Republic: so it actually sends an im to the receiver? (sorta)
[12:54] Stone Linden: Latif: ahhh, that's the difference between in-world inventory and what's in the sidepanel.
[12:54] Joshua Linden: Luisa: re: auth - it's hidden behind a cryptographically secure capability and the data is transmitted over a TLS connection
[12:54] Stone Linden: they are separate systems.
[12:54] Stone Linden: separate concepts, rather
[12:54] Andrew Linden: llGiveInventory() will transfer to object contents
[12:55] Stickman: Five minutes.
[12:55] Andrew Linden: object contents is similar to avatar inventory, but not quite the same
[12:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[12:55] Joshua Linden: i.e. we transmit a unique URL to the viewer (over HTTPS) so only an auth'd viewer knows the URL. Accesses to the URL are done over HTTPs. Does that quell your fears?
[12:55] Andrew Linden: similar meta data is stored in the item in object contents, however no support for folders
[12:55] Latif Khalifa: Andrew, I know. I was just sauing it would be nice if we had a possibility for LSL script to give items from owners avatar inventory
[12:55] Latif Khalifa: saying*
[12:55] Flip Idlemind: Any chance any of the stuff we've just talked about is leading up to the "magic-box-less" marketplace? You know, where the marketplace pulls items out of a "special inventory folder"?
[12:55] Joshua Linden: Latif: feature request -> JIRA! :)
[12:55] Latif Khalifa: :)
[12:56] Stone Linden: Latif: oh I get it, yes I agree. That's be neat.
[12:56] Latif Khalifa: and assign to Kelly? :)
[12:56] Latif Khalifa hides
[12:56] Joshua Linden: SVC, leave unassigned for triage
[12:56] Stone Linden: Flip: no comment on future products :)
[12:56] reddot99 Republic: or give folders across sims
[12:56] Kelly Linden: Sure I can mark 'won't finish' as fast as anyone else. ;) just for you latif.
[12:56] Joshua Linden: lol
[12:56] Latif Khalifa: hahaha
[12:57] Rex Cronon: i guess and objects inventory will also have a limit of how many items will display
[12:57] reddot99 Republic: the giveinventorylist would be nice to have working across sims
[12:57] Rex Cronon: an objects*
[12:57] Simon Linden: I have a request for when we finish the hour ... I'd like to do a quick performance measurement
[12:57] Latif Khalifa: Well if you implement direct-from-avatar-inv delivery for marketplace as the commerce people are saying, it would be only fair for 3rd pary vendor creators to have the similar option. :)
[12:57] TankMaster Teichmann: ok
[12:57] Hope Dreier: OK
[12:58] Andrew Linden: alright Simon, the hour is almost up. What are your instructions?
[12:58] Flip Idlemind: If "performance measurement" means "randomly jumping around" then sign me up. That's what I'm best at :D
[12:58] Stone Linden: I'll let me spacemouse yaw like crazy again
[12:58] Kelly Linden: I think you may be in luck flip
[12:58] Simon Linden: When we're done, I'd like everyone to move about, maybe run some animations, chat, etc. Just trying to get a lot of general activity
[12:58] Rex Cronon: rez things?
[12:58] TankMaster Teichmann: lol
[12:58] Andrew Linden: ok so this is an interestlist test?
[12:59] Simon Linden: Please don't rez your sim-killing objects ... we know you have them, so you don't have to show it
[12:59] Hope Dreier: lols
[12:59] Latif Khalifa: within this sim, not going ouit in?
[12:59] Nivi Snowpaw: Damn, I am on text-only :P
[12:59] reddot99 Republic: how long until raycasts come out?
[12:59] Simon Linden: yes, I'm particularly looking for update data
[12:59] Nivi Snowpaw: llCastRay() <3 <3 <3
[12:59] Stickman: Raycasts are tied to meshes it sounded like.
[12:59] Joshua Linden: Simon: so turning around and moving around the sim would be helpful?
[12:59] Rex Cronon: i think simon said that to everybody. right:)
[12:59] Stickman: Which seems silly.
[12:59] 10K's Magic Wand V2.75 whispers: Waiting for your commands master. I am ready to cast 190 spells.
[12:59] 10K's Magic Wand V2.75 whispers: I am listening for 236 commands.
[12:59] Simon Linden: llCastRay() is tied to mesh, I believe
[12:59] Simon Linden: yes Rex
[12:59] Luisa Bourgoin: laaaagtest 1 2 ... 3
[12:59] reddot99 Republic: yeah, i was gone for 2 months and was hoping they'd be here when i returned
[13:00] Jessica Lyon: oh btw, welcome back Kelly!
[13:00] Simon Linden: ok ... in case we blow up, thanks everyone for coming
[13:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[13:00] Jessica Lyon: if Kelly is still here >.<
[13:00] Andrew Linden: Yes, thanks for coming.
[13:00] Qie Niangao: Thanks, Lindens. :)
[13:00] Stickman: Thanks for the usergroup. Informative.
[13:00] Simon Linden shouts: let's move!
[13:00] Andrew Linden: Thanks Stone for answering questions about inventory.
[13:00] Jessica Lyon: Thanks for your time guys.
[13:00] Flip Idlemind: I like cookies
[13:00] Luisa Bourgoin: mewo! this is looking silly!
[13:00] Flip Idlemind: I like quadruple stuffed oreos (that's two double stuffed oreos stuffed inside a double stuffed oreo)
[13:00] Stickman: Sorry, excuse me.
[13:00] Quiva 2.10: Hope Dreier has drawn the quiva...
[13:01] Rex Cronon: this looks like bump time:)
[13:01] MoDesign Remote HUD (global) whispers: Locked with MoLock to Emerald Seaside
[13:01] MoDesign Remote HUD (global) whispers: Emerald Seaside took the key.
[13:01] Cummere Mayo: ao off
[13:01] Luisa Bourgoin: confess you are doing a machinima about office hours...
[13:01] Simon Linden: Deep Fried, Flip?
[13:01] 10K's Magic Wand V2.75 whispers: Waiting for your commands master. I am ready to cast 190 spells.
[13:01] 10K's Magic Wand V2.75 whispers: I am listening for 236 commands.
[13:01] Tomkin Euler: we's all watching the chart..
[13:01] Cummere Mayo: lol
[13:01] Flip Idlemind: Of course
[13:01] Flip Idlemind: Gyahahhah ooooh
[13:01] Simon Linden shouts: ok, that should be good
[13:01] Quiva 2.10: Hope Dreier has sheathed the quiva...
[13:01] Stickman: Toast.
[13:01] Flip Idlemind: Everyone stop having fun now
[13:01] Quiva 2.10: Hope Dreier has sheathed the quiva...
[13:01] Stickman: Toast.
[13:01] Flip Idlemind: Everyone stop having fun now
[13:01] Quiva 2.10: Hope Dreier has sheathed the quiva...
[13:01] Stickman: Toast.
[13:01] Flip Idlemind: Everyone stop having fun now
[13:01] Quiva 2.10: Hope Dreier has sheathed the quiva...
[13:01] Stickman: Toast.
[13:01] Flip Idlemind: Everyone stop having fun now
Simulator_User_Group
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