WindLight/Office Hours/2008-04-10

Note: This is an edited version of the office hours, for the complete log check here: 
[12:14] Pastrami Linden: so, this will be chat,
[12:14] Pastrami Linden: and until we ge tto the open forum
[12:14] Pastrami Linden: I'd ask you keep the chat to a minimum
[12:14] Pastrami Linden: in addition
[12:15] Pastrami Linden: I'll be turning on a big red sign
[12:15] Pastrami Linden: when I'm ready for IMs
[12:16] Pastrami Linden: so, without further ado
[12:16] Pastrami Linden: firstly I'd like to go over some basics of what the viewer does
[12:16] Pastrami Linden: oh, and please don't IM me now :)
[12:17] Pastrami Linden: the first thing I'd like to express to all is the difference between the network/server side and the viewer side
[12:17] Pastrami Linden: some of this might be basic to you, but to some, not so much
[12:18] Pastrami Linden: SL processes most of tis data on servers- like a mail server or a web host
[12:18] Pastrami Linden: and then trasmits that data to you on your viewer
[12:18] Pastrami Linden: the best way to always think of this
[12:18] Pastrami Linden: is like the Matrix :)
[12:19] Pastrami Linden: imagine you strip away everything you see, and replace it with information and numbers
[12:19] Pastrami Linden: for example, my cute little avatar
[12:19] Pastrami Linden: would be a series of instructions and data
[12:19] Pastrami Linden: all of that comes from the server
[12:20] Pastrami Linden: so, script behavior, people's locations, your attachments
[12:20] Pastrami Linden: all of that comes as data, without any visuals attached
[12:20] Pastrami Linden: now, the viewer has a very "dumb" job
[12:20] Pastrami Linden: it takes all the data and paints over it, so to speak
[12:20] Pastrami Linden: like going from green Matrix data mode to the real world view ;)
[12:21] Pastrami Linden: so, why am I going over all this?
[12:21] Pastrami Linden: we work on the viewer-
[12:21] Pastrami Linden: which means, we are almost entirely separate, data-wise, from those numbers and infoirmation
[12:21] Pastrami Linden: not entirely, and obviously we *work* with everyone in tandem
[12:22] Pastrami Linden: but when a new viewer is released, the first thing to ask yourself is,
[12:22] Pastrami Linden: if I strip away the "paint"
[12:22] Pastrami Linden: the 3d drawings on top of what's happening
[12:22] Pastrami Linden: is that where my bug is?
[12:22] Pastrami Linden: and that's a great litmus test to tell if it's viewer related or otherwise
[12:23] Pastrami Linden: the viewer has a slew of its own issues, don't get me wrong ;)
[12:23] Pastrami Linden: but many basic concerns with the viewer aren't actually the viewer at all
[12:23] Pastrami Linden: or at least not the 3d component of it
[12:24] Pastrami Linden: much of ti has to do with the communication from you, to the server, back out to others
[12:24] Pastrami Linden: so problems with IMs,
[12:24] Pastrami Linden: inventory loss, etc.
[12:24] Pastrami Linden: when you think about it as a "data or paint?" question
[12:24] Pastrami Linden: fall in the data category
[12:24] Pastrami Linden: sometimes it's hard to tell the difference
[12:24] Pastrami Linden: but that's a good first step
[12:25] Pastrami Linden: take away: "We paint the data"
[12:25] Pastrami Linden: that's what the viewer mostly does
[12:25] Pastrami Linden: guys, please keep chatter down for now. Thanks :)
[12:25] Pastrami Linden: so, this obviously leaves a vast swath of other problems
[12:25] Pastrami Linden: and for those,
[12:26] Pastrami Linden: there is a *GREAT* new wiki article up:
[12:27] Pastrami Linden: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Service_Disruptions
[12:27] Pastrami Linden: someone check to make sure you guys can see that, plz
[12:28] Pastrami Linden: okay
[12:28] Pastrami Linden: so, this wiki is a great reference for what goes wrong with server, network, and data side of things
[12:29] Pastrami Linden: now, this information doesn't make any of this more palatable, I know, BUT...
[12:29] Pastrami Linden: before commenting or being concerned that you have a viewer problem
[12:29] Pastrami Linden: consult this wiki and think of the "data vs. paint" analogy
[12:29] Pastrami Linden: it will just make yuor concerns and comments easier to place
[12:30] Pastrami Linden: both for you guys and for us
[12:30] Pastrami Linden: so, that's it: viewer vs. the rest
[12:30] Pastrami Linden: next topic:
[12:30] Pastrami Linden: Drivers
[12:30] Pastrami Linden: we communciate it again and again
[12:30] Pastrami Linden: on the viewer side, we are unfortunately beholden to the graphcis cards manufacturers
[12:31] Pastrami Linden: when drivers are good, it works well
[12:31] Pastrami Linden: when they're not, well, not so much :)
[12:31] Pastrami Linden: but as a general rule, and behavior,
[12:31] Pastrami Linden: we see a lot of issues cleared up the moment people download the latest drivers for thei rmachine
[12:31] Pastrami Linden: for some machines this is impossible,
[12:31] Pastrami Linden: like old notebooks
[12:32] Pastrami Linden: but, this is another one of those Viewer 101 things we wish everyone did:
[12:32] Pastrami Linden: make SURE you have the latest from your manufacturers
[12:32] Pastrami Linden: if you don't know where to get them,
[12:32] Pastrami Linden: just search for "drivers" on our blog and you'll see references for ATI, Nvidia, and INtel
[12:33] Pastrami Linden: and if yuo still don't know what I'm talking about ;), IM a Linden or do some googling-it's a fundemental step in maintaining your PC
[12:33] Pastrami Linden: next topic:
[12:33] Pastrami Linden: many people are concerned that the new viewers exclude older cards
[12:34] Pastrami Linden: or that we have pushed forward the base that we require
[12:34] Pastrami Linden: we did raise the min. reqt's slightly, BUT
[12:34] Pastrami Linden: in the code, that didn't happen
[12:34] Pastrami Linden: it's more of an attempt to get new users onto better hardware
[12:34] Pastrami Linden: At the LOW setting
[12:35] Pastrami Linden: practically every old card should run as fast or faster
[12:35] Pastrami Linden: LOW
[12:35] Pastrami Linden: for those who don't know
[12:36] Pastrami Linden: is in reference to the Graphics Quality/Performance slider
[12:36] Pastrami Linden: to get to this, go to Edit
[12:36] Pastrami Linden: Preferences
[12:36] Pastrami Linden: then Graphics
[12:36] Pastrami Linden: by pulling that slider to LOW
[12:36] Pastrami Linden: you are ensuring you're back to basics
[12:36] Pastrami Linden: this is also a GREAT technique for anyone who thinks the new viewer is now slower, etc.
[12:37] Pastrami Linden: there is a 99.9% chance yuo WILL be faster at LOW
[12:37] Pastrami Linden: LOW is close to equal to the old viewer
[12:37] Pastrami Linden: but with settings like draw distance set VERY low
[12:37] Pastrami Linden: to understand what is happening here, click the "CUstom" check box to the right of the slider
[12:38] Pastrami Linden: that slider is actually controliing the many variables exposed when you click "Custom"
[12:38] Pastrami Linden: it's a basic version of going through and clickign yourself
[12:38] Pastrami Linden: so a great first approach,
[12:39] Pastrami Linden: is start at Low, no matter what card you have
[12:39] Pastrami Linden: then, try bumping it up one step at a time- to Medium, then High, etc.
[12:39] Pastrami Linden: but, I knwo what some of your are concerned about!
[12:39] Pastrami Linden: great performance with Low, but poor detail and draw distance, etc.
[12:39] Pastrami Linden: this is where Custom comes in
[12:39] Pastrami Linden: the BEST practice to do is,
[12:40] Pastrami Linden: Unmitigated, some people do not know this yet, please be patient
[12:40] Pastrami Linden: start at Low, turn on Custom, then try each setting individually
[12:40] Pastrami Linden: this way yuo can get the features you want but scale back the ones you don't
[12:41] Pastrami Linden: we've tried to make things as clear as possible with the titles, but you'll have to become a bit of a graphics head if you want to tweak for the way you want!
[12:41] Pastrami Linden: Yes, Blu- it's in multiple places and Torley will be making a tutorial soon
[12:41] Pastrami Linden: I will blog about it too
[12:41] Pastrami Linden: so, that's the "bottom up" approach to twekaing the viewer
[12:42] Pastrami Linden: and again, know that at Low, every card just as before is supported, and 99% likely you will have a faster experience than 1.18, no matter the card
[12:42] Pastrami Linden: it's just up to to you to then find the sweet spot with features/speed that you like
[12:42] Pastrami Linden: next topic:
[12:42] Pastrami Linden: quick one
[12:42] Pastrami Linden: Zen has just discovered,
[12:43] Pastrami Linden: that if you're on an ATI card
[12:43] Pastrami Linden: and you're in 16-bit color mode in windows
[12:43] Pastrami Linden: you WILL crash
[12:43] Pastrami Linden: we know this in Windows for a fact
[12:43] Pastrami Linden: so, if you're crashign CONSTANTLY with an ATI
[12:44] Pastrami Linden: on startup
[12:44] Pastrami Linden: ensure you're in 32-bit color mode
[12:44] Pastrami Linden: google this- don't want to take up too much more time on how to do this
[12:44] Pastrami Linden: lighting on avatars
[12:44] Pastrami Linden: next topic
[12:45] Pastrami Linden: I'm going to use a photo or two to describe:
[12:47] Pastrami Linden: http://www.gulker.com/blog/wp-content/2007/01/long_shadows_long_day.jpg
[12:47] Pastrami Linden: everyone go there
[12:48] Pastrami Linden: so, let me explain about avatar lighting
[12:48] Pastrami Linden: in that photo
[12:48] Pastrami Linden: as you see in that photo, most lighting has two components: direct, and ambient
[12:49] Pastrami Linden: in that photo, the yellowish parts, where the sun hits, is direct light
[12:49] Pastrami Linden: the blue parts, in the shadows,
[12:49] Pastrami Linden: that's all ambient light
[12:50] Pastrami Linden: so here for example:
[12:50] Pastrami Linden: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/75/Cloudy_day_Halgrimmskirkja_Reykjavik_2005.JPG/450px-Cloudy_day_Halgrimmskirkja_Reykjavik_2005.JPG
[12:50] Pastrami Linden: there is no direct light
[12:50] Pastrami Linden: since it's overcast
[12:51] Pastrami Linden: in computer graphics we have the same thing- direct light and ambient light
[12:51] Pastrami Linden: in the old SL viewer,
[12:51] Pastrami Linden: there was something like 90% ambient light
[12:51] Pastrami Linden: and very little direct from the sun
[12:51] Pastrami Linden: so all avatar skins appeared reltively flat and uniform
[12:52] Pastrami Linden: with the new viewer, we now have the option to direct all of this
[12:52] Pastrami Linden: by default, avatars are appearing darker or shadowed
[12:52] Pastrami Linden: not because anything different or special is being done *for avatars*
[12:53] Pastrami Linden: but because we now handle direct light correctly
[12:53] Pastrami Linden: to undo this, for example
[12:53] Pastrami Linden: go to World
[12:53] Pastrami Linden: Environment Settings
[12:53] Detour Sideways: pastrami so why do attaments and clothing which are exactly the same color, appear different?
[12:53] Pastrami Linden: Envrionment Editor
[12:53] Pastrami Linden: Advanced Sky
[12:53] Pastrami Linden: Lighting
[12:54] Pastrami Linden: oh yeah, sorry, make sure you're in Midday first :)
[12:54] Pastrami Linden: World->Env Settings->Midday
[12:54] Pastrami Linden: now, in that Lighting tab
[12:54] Pastrami Linden: put your Sun/Moon Color to zero
[12:55] Pastrami Linden: using the "I" slider
[12:55] Pastrami Linden: and in the Ambient next to it
[12:55] Pastrami Linden: put your "I" at 0.7
[12:55] Pastrami Linden: now you're in a much flatter lit world again
[12:56] Pastrami Linden: you WILL see a difference, even at Low
[12:56] Pastrami Linden: so now it's similar to an overcast day- but a bright one
[12:56] Pastrami Linden: Sun/Moon is direct light
[12:57] Pastrami Linden: Ambient is, well, Ambient :)
[12:57] Pastrami Linden: so, heading into into the future
[12:57] Pastrami Linden: two things will likely occur-
[12:57] Pastrami Linden: we will soon make WindLight settings estate-settable and tradeable
[12:57] Pastrami Linden: so some people might like this flatter, old school look
[12:58] Pastrami Linden: but for those who want to get direct light in their scenes
[12:58] Pastrami Linden: avatar skins will probably start being designed brighter and with the new lighting model in mind
[12:58] Pastrami Linden: in order to get SL to hollywood special effects-level graphics
[12:58] Pastrami Linden: having both (direct and ambient) is crucial
[12:59] Pastrami Linden: now, we just have sunny days-
[12:59] Pastrami Linden: but using these sliders
[12:59] Pastrami Linden: you can dictate how much of each you want
[12:59] Pastrami Linden: and get it closer to overcast lighting
[12:59] Pastrami Linden: next topic:
[12:59] Pastrami Linden: Sunrise, Sunset-
[12:59] Pastrami Linden: I'll keep this one brief-
[13:00] Pastrami Linden: some people like the dramatic sunsets and sunrises
[13:00] Pastrami Linden: some hate them
[13:00] Petronilla Whitfield: How do we get back to the way it looked before you had us change the settings?
[13:00] Pastrami Linden: oh, Petronilla- good question
[13:00] Pastrami Linden: easisest way- set it back to Midday
[13:00] Pastrami Linden: in World-Env. Settings
[13:00] Pastrami Linden: anyway, re: Sunsets and Sunrise-
[13:01] Pastrami Linden: some like, some hate
[13:01] Pastrami Linden: but once we let estate owners decide, all of that goes away
[13:01] Pastrami Linden: a market will emerge, undoubtedly, for new skies
[13:01] Pastrami Linden: I picked colors I felt would be appealing to new users and old-
[13:01] Pastrami Linden: since midday gives you balance as it is
[13:01] Pastrami Linden: but, once you all start trading skies
[13:02] Pastrami Linden: we might hold a contest to make a new default day set
[13:02] Pastrami Linden: :)
[13:02] Pastrami Linden: so, point is- you can change the lighting now
[13:02] Pastrami Linden: and soon ensure everyone at your sim will see what you want
[13:02] Pastrami Linden: last issue:
[13:02] Pastrami Linden: Invisible Skirts
[13:02] Pastrami Linden: I'm letting Zen handle this one
[13:03] Zen Linden: Invisible skirts were not a rendering issue, unfortunately, it appeared to be a networking issues
[13:03] Zen Linden: I was able to occasionally repro it under heavy packet loss conditions
[13:03] Zen Linden: on both the viewer before and windlight
[13:05] Zen Linden: if you're on a connection with a lot of packet loss (i.e. information not getting to and from the server), you may see this much more often
[13:06] Zen Linden: like on a wireless laptop far from the router
[13:06] Pastrami Linden: yeah, this goes back to the "data vs. paint" analogy- this happens to be a data issue, so we don't paint it :(
[13:08] Zen Linden: unfortunately, fixing it would require a retooling in some of the architecture of how we transfer data from the client to the server and back again. For use an unreliable protocol, UDP, and though we try to do things to make it reliable, we haven't caught every corner case
----
[13:08] Pastrami Linden: Okay, all of this was pretty basic, I know- so now we're ready for the next phase- before we begin, a few points first:
[13:08] Pastrami Linden: I am HOPING I will be able to receive all the IMs
[13:09] Zen Linden: What we're hunting down presently looks like a leak in one of our libraries. We're presently experimenting with some heap profilers, but it may be a bit of a slog to narrow it down
[13:10] Pastrami Linden: and WE KNOW it's major
[13:10] Pastrami Linden: okay
[13:10] Pastrami Linden: do NOT send me the same IM multiple times. And keep it clean! :)
[13:10] Pastrami Linden: GO!
[13:11] Pastrami Linden: Wow!
[13:11] Pastrami Linden: noisy bunch, aren't ya? :)
[13:11] Pastrami Linden: here we go
[13:11] Karine Koba: you love it pastrami!
[13:12] Pastrami Linden: I FEEEEED OFF IT
[13:12] Pastrami Linden: and away we go:
[13:12] Pastrami Linden: one other thing
[13:12] Pastrami Linden: as we answer these
[13:12] Pastrami Linden: please only chime in, ONLY, if it is related to the current issue
[13:12] Pastrami Linden: otherwise we'll never finish
[13:13] Pastrami Linden: Wrestling Hulka: When we MUTE other avatars there are functions that mute their Voice, Sounds, Text, and Particles. Is there any plans in the future to also Mute an avatar's lighting and GLOW?
[13:13] Pastrami Linden: Runitai, care to answer?
[13:14] Runitai Linden: if you have avatar impostors on, muting an avatar will replace them wtith a grey silhouette of themselves
[13:15] Eddy Ofarrel: is that just using the standard mute option then Runitai? as in there isn't a seperate one for that?
[13:15] Runitai Linden: right, just the standard mute option
[13:16] Pastrami Linden: Cummere Mayo: Patrami, i have to go, but i have a two part question. 1) why release a viewer that by bug traiges and feedback y'all knew wasnt ready, for release and has cause trouble for 2/3 the population, and 2) why are you dcontinuing to push move viewers that take away options many of us wanted and used?
[13:17] Pastrami Linden: 1) we only have one way to test stability and enhancements
[13:17] Pastrami Linden: we test it internally
[13:17] Pastrami Linden: then wider
[13:17] Pastrami Linden: then wider
[13:17] Pastrami Linden: it has to get into your hadsn for a wide enough base for us to improve it
[13:17] Pastrami Linden: ^hands
[13:17] Pastrami Linden: we will have the *exact* same hardware
[13:18] Pastrami Linden: and yet it will be fine on our machines
[13:19] Pastrami Linden: 2)
[13:19] Pastrami Linden: I agree some things people like get borked
[13:19] Pastrami Linden: the UI teams do their work
[13:19] Pastrami Linden: some good enw stuff gets introduced
[13:19] Pastrami Linden: ^new
[13:20] Pastrami Linden: but some goes away- they're always takign surveys and balancing
[13:20] Aimee Trescothick: who do the surveys go to?
[13:20] Pastrami Linden: it's tough- most changes recieve 50% glowing praise
[13:20] Pastrami Linden: 50% disapproval
[13:20] Pastrami Linden: I'm honestly not sure-
[13:20] Pastrami Linden: it's not my team :\
[13:20] Pastrami Linden: I knowz the pixels :)
[13:20] Cummere Mayo: I have to agree with unmitigated on that one pastrami. especially when at the bug triage meetings and the release meetings cg hsoted, consnesus was DONT release 1.19.4 yet
[13:21] Pastrami Linden: Cummere-
[13:21] Pastrami Linden: our crashes and fps were higher on all our test machines
[13:21] Pastrami Linden: sorry
[13:21] Pastrami Linden: better
[13:21] Pastrami Linden: always make that mistake
[13:21] Pastrami Linden: crahses were LOWER
[13:21] Pastrami Linden: fps higher
[13:21] Pastrami Linden: anyway, Cummere-
[13:22] Pastrami Linden: it's a test base issue
[13:22] Pastrami Linden: we have on the order of 500 machines
[13:22] Pastrami Linden: we get it very stable
[13:23] Pastrami Linden: then we HAVE to go wider to gather the data to keep improving
[13:23] Pastrami Linden: most of us are now on crahs hunting
[13:23] Pastrami Linden: ^crash
[13:23] Pastrami Linden: Kokoro Fasching: Is it possible to get a dianostic system, a lite client, that just tests connectivity between the client and the Linden Lab servers on all the required ports, espcially the upload ports? I have gotten many residents that are unable to upload due to port blockages, sometimes at client level, often at ISP level. Need to have Win/Mac/*nix test client.
[13:24] Pastrami Linden: Kokoro- a good idea
[13:24] Pastrami Linden: but we don't have anything like that
[13:25] Pastrami Linden: Karine Koba: Unless I zoom with my camera or that I’m close enough to avatars, i don’t seven see their movements when they walk or type, I have used different driver versions and got the same problem. same for my friends.
[13:25] Pastrami Linden: Karine,
[13:25] Pastrami Linden: your issue is almost certainly impostors-
[13:25] Pastrami Linden: do this
[13:25] Pastrami Linden: go to graphics in preferences
[13:26] Pastrami Linden: click on Custom
[13:26] Pastrami Linden: and move your avatar detail slider to Mid or High
[13:26] Pastrami Linden: if that doesn't work,
[13:26] Pastrami Linden: turn off Avatar Impostors in Avatar Rendering
[13:27] Pastrami Linden: "Tiff Trommler: my only comment...you should cool down on the new features for the viewer, and work on stability....everyone I know crashes a LOT!!! Also getting these smart heap mem errors a lot. and my friends are all getting VERY angry."
[13:27] Pastrami Linden: yes I agree!
[13:27] Pastrami Linden: viewer features are slowing way down as we focus on crahses, memory leaks, and stability
[13:27] Zen Linden: Tiff: We are and we agree. I'm not working on windlight tradable assets until our crash rate is down substantially.
[13:28] Pastrami Linden: it comes in waves-
[13:28] Pastrami Linden: enhance, fix, enhance, fix
[13:28] Pastrami Linden: we're in a BIG fix pattern right now
[13:28] Aimee Trescothick: are the crash buster actively working to pull in all the crash fixes Nicholaz et al have contributed?
[13:29] Pastrami Linden: livinglight Yiyuan: the new sl -windlight lighting system for faces, skins, clothing and even hair has left clothing made and sold in sl looking drained of color. it was easy to use a face light to make your face show pretty (removing all shadows) but now the new lighting drains the color of your face. i dont know what to do anymore, the new lighting system is effecting myself and everyone who buys clothes all around secondlife, many clothes are not looking the way they are suposed to anymore, and my question is what will sl do about changing everyone's viewers to have a light that is skin, hair and clothing friendly again? [13:11] livinglight Yiyuan: it's tough to tell everyone to change there lighting, it would be better to have it set so that we could have stable lighting and just add color if we like, and not the other way around
[13:29] Pastrami Linden: livinglight- see my comments above about changing direct and ambient light
[13:29] Pastrami Linden: once it's estate settable, all the power will be yours
[13:29] livinglight Yiyuan: i did, but it's tough to tell people who are new how to do this. they just dont understand much of this:/
[13:30] Pastrami Linden: livinglight, that's why estate-settable will fix it
[13:30] Pastrami Linden: Dithean Ringo: Graphics Card: Quadro FX 700/AGP/SSE2 OpenGL Version: 2.1.2 I had a great experience with RC 1.19.1 (4) but since it became the main viewer, I can't see ripples on the water or glow. I just see giant white splodges. Same with RC 1.20 What has changed and how do I get it back?
[13:30] Pastrami Linden: Runitai?
[13:31] BigPapi Linden: File a bug report, that sounds like a driver bug that's getting triggered by some trivial change since 1.19.4
[13:31] BigPapi Linden: File a bug report, that sounds like a driver bug that's getting triggered by some trivial change since 1.19.4
[13:31] Runitai Linden: We primarily test on GeForce cards
[13:31] JaneD DeCuir: and ATI?
[13:31] Runitai Linden: and Quadros use different drivers
[13:32] BigPapi Linden: Yes and ATI's
[13:32] Pastrami Linden: Gwynn Blackburn: So the answer to the invisible skirt issue is... what? [13:22] Gwynn Blackburn: Sorry to bother you, but I crashed. You didn't answer my question yet, I hope?
[13:32] Pastrami Linden: Gwynn
[13:32] Pastrami Linden: answer is, it's been preliminarily linked to netowkr issues-
[13:33] Pastrami Linden: so get on a fiexd landline connection
[13:33] Pastrami Linden: ^fixed
[13:33] Pastrami Linden: or a good wireless
[13:33] Detour Sideways: so why do skirts work fine in the non WL viewer?
[13:33] Zen Linden: Detour: i saw the same issue on 1.18
[13:34] Pastrami Linden: Unmitigated Gall: This is so frustrating!!! THREE IMPORTANT ISSUES: 1) Your mandatory client upgrades are killing schools and teachers, they have budget and hardware issues that you guys seem completely oblivious to. 2) You have redone the Media tools, and broke them terrible. Media tools that used to work flawlessly for group presentations are now completly dead, thanks to the Web on a prim crapola!!! 3) The JIRA is being ignored, important issues are going uncommented on and ignored.
[13:35] Pastrami Linden: 1) 1.19.0 is the latest mandatory- but we will keep it so for a long time
[13:35] Pastrami Linden: mandatory downloads are bad when yuo have a slow connection
[13:36] Pastrami Linden: I agree
[13:36] Pastrami Linden: but, we have to get people on to recent code
[13:36] Pastrami Linden: it makes debugging and improvement MUCH better
[13:37] Pastrami Linden: so we try to balance the advantage of mandatory with the disadvantage
[13:37] Pastrami Linden: I believe 1.20 will be out and 1.19.0 will *still* be available
[13:37] Pastrami Linden: 2)
[13:38] Pastrami Linden: Media tools and breakage
[13:39] Pastrami Linden: I'm checking on office hours
[13:39] Pastrami Linden: want to point you to the right people
[13:41] Pastrami Linden: here we go
[13:41] Pastrami Linden: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Office_Hours
[13:41] Pastrami Linden: Benjamin Linden
[13:42] Pastrami Linden: he deals with a lot of the UI issues
[13:42] Pastrami Linden: 3) The JIRA is being ignored, important issues are going uncommented on and ignored.
[13:42] Pastrami Linden: oh yeah, Jira is backlogged- no doubt
[13:42] Pastrami Linden: that's a manpower issue
[13:42] Pastrami Linden: it's monitored by a number of Lindens
[13:42] JaneD DeCuir: jira looks chaotic for non techies
[13:43] Pastrami Linden: I agree
[13:43] Dahlia Eilde: At one point the memory I was using to run SL was the equivalent of running 4 versions of photoshop. That's insane.
[13:43] Pastrami Linden: guys, we know about the memory leaks
[13:43] Pastrami Linden: the guy to my right is focused hard core on it ;)
[13:43] Pastrami Linden: and the guy to my left
[13:43] Pastrami Linden: I'm wet there's so much leak work going on around me
[13:43] Pastrami Linden: :)
[13:44] Pastrami Linden: so, Jira gets scrubbed
[13:44] Pastrami Linden: but not often enough
[13:44] Pastrami Linden: we're trying-
[13:44] Pastrami Linden: we sometimes go by "noise" too
[13:45] Pastrami Linden: so when we see issues on the blog, and people like Torley keep their eyes and ears open
[13:45] Pastrami Linden: that prioritizes it
[13:45] Pastrami Linden: but there's another thing-
[13:45] Pastrami Linden: back in WindLight's FirstLook days
[13:45] Pastrami Linden: priority went to jira issues, etc.
[13:45] Pastrami Linden: and I'd say we were failry good at solving them
[13:45] Pastrami Linden: at least for rendering
[13:45] Pastrami Linden: now,
[13:46] Pastrami Linden: we have our crash reporting tools working better
[13:46] Pastrami Linden: so we are zeroed in on crash hunting
[13:46] Pastrami Linden: :)
[13:46] Pastrami Linden: well, we get to a lot- Macbooks used to be a disaster zone
[13:47] Pastrami Linden: anyway, once we finish crash hunting (because we've gotten the rate appreciabley lower), we will have more time for non crash bugs
[13:47] Pastrami Linden: meant above, we *will* have gotten the rate lower
[13:47] Pastrami Linden: rate is currently lower, but not enough
[13:47] Pastrami Linden: we work with ATI
[13:48] Pastrami Linden: some manufacturers are just better about their drivers than others
[13:48] jjccc Coronet: is it true that voice is going to be deactivated soon to save on band width because it hasnt taken off as expected
[13:48] Pastrami Linden: no
[13:48] Pastrami Linden: and please IM
[13:48] Runitai Linden: on my desk I have an NVIDIA card, an ATI card, and an Intel 945, enough with the religious ATI vs. NVIDIA debate
[13:49] Pastrami Linden: I'm going to skip some of the questions that have already been covered
[13:49] Runitai Linden: we meet with and work with all three equally, AND apple
[13:49] Pastrami Linden: and to say it for the alst time-
[13:49] Pastrami Linden: memory leaks are a huge problem
[13:49] Pastrami Linden: we know it
[13:49] Pastrami Linden: you know it
[13:49] Pastrami Linden: it's HUGE on our list
[13:50] Pastrami Linden: Ollipeist Balogh: Why do you consistently ignore the contributions of your best OpenSource contributers? Nicholaz Beresford, your top award winning OpenSource developer has become so frustrated he has given up contributing. I know for a fact that you have not fixed the boot-up-your-but problem even though Nicholaz fixed that four months ago. And his BE-v viewer is rock stable - I go for weeks with no crashes. All the new SL Vierwers have crashed within minute of downloading them and repeatedly. There are many memory holes that Nicholaz fixed that are apparently still there . Why? I have sat though this whole meeting with no crashes and Viewer footprint no more than 650MB at worst. The OpenSource people are there to help, not just to amuse you.
[13:51] Brad Linden: Ollipeist Balogh: We do our best to review and import patches promptly, many of Nicolaz's patches have been imported
[13:51] Brad Linden: many have not for a variety of reasons
[13:52] JaneD DeCuir: you work with a plan?
[13:52] Sumie Kawashima: why not?
[13:52] JaneD DeCuir: step by step?
[13:52] Ollipeist Balogh: Have you told him those reasons?
[13:53] Brad Linden: each patch is evaluated individually and the reasons should have been posted on the jira for the patch
[13:53] Brad Linden: if the reasons were not posted, then that is an oversight on our part
[13:54] Brad Linden: some of them do not "fix" the bug, they just hide it from showing up, these do not make the client more stable
[13:54] Brad Linden: those are the patches that haven't been imported
[13:56] Brad Linden: we're constantly working on improving our process for colaborating with outside developers like nicolaz but we're not there yet
[13:56] Pastrami Linden: Brent Jarman: Sometimes I'm sitting and chatting with people, and they will go silent for a long time, and ten minutes later I'll realize I am all alone in this alternate world and I can't stand up and walk anywhere. What causes that and how can I fix it?
[13:57] Iexo Bethune: Sim crash, Brent. xD
[13:57] Prez Pessoa: Brent is right.. a lot of ghost-crashes like this
[13:57] Pastrami Linden: Brent, not sure- but it's certainly on the data/server end
[13:57] Pastrami Linden: not rednering :(
[13:57] Pastrami Linden: rendering
[13:58] Sumie Kawashima: Totally didn't address the question about Nicholaz at ALL :-((
[13:58] Brad Linden: no a lot of the poblems, don't have obvious fixes, the "shoe up the but" bug was a perfect example of that case.
[13:58] Phil Priestman: From what I've been reading on the blogs from various open source people is that the lindens seem to casting their efforts aside.
[13:58] Brent Jarman: It's not a sim crash because other people are still there when I get back, and they say I just disappeared during those ten minutes
[13:58] Ollipeist Balogh: But his fix works!
[13:58] Pastrami Linden: Brent I mean communication between you and server
[13:58] Amaterasu Cinquetti: I think you excises are just semantics Brad, no woner Nicholaz is disgusted
[13:58] Kooky Jetaime: Brad, if it doesn't have an obvious fix, then why does it not happen on Nicholaz's Viewer?
[13:58] Iexo Bethune: Then you disconnected for some reason
[13:58] Pastrami Linden: Detour Sideways: why do clothing and attchments light up differently? If I have the exact same color on an attchment and clothing which is supppose to seemlessly match, they appear differnt
[13:59] Iexo Bethune: That's a good question, Kooky
[13:59] BigPapi Linden: Probably because the normals don't match where they meet.
[13:59] Pastrami Linden: BigPapi can you explain that further
[13:59] BigPapi Linden: Sure
[13:59] Detour Sideways: and I mention this becauseyou said the avatars arent given any special lighting anymore
[13:59] Detour Sideways: actually in my cases they are more differnt
[14:00] Brent Jarman: I understand I've disconnected, but it would be nice if the viewer KNEW I was disconnected and told me, rather than make me sit there and think things are going along fine while I am missing what's going on, as JUST VHAPPENED TO ME lol
[14:00] livinglight Yiyuan: light on the shirt and light on the prim skirt seem to make one color look like two different ones
[14:00] pointside Sunbelter: /I dont understand how keeping hair on your head and not at your crotch would be a hiding issue??????
[14:00] Detour Sideways: Pastrami this issue isnt about the seems hiding where they meet. Its about colors showing up differnt because the prim is being lit in a differnt way to the mesh
[14:00] BigPapi Linden: Detour: When you have to separate pieces of geometry that are being lit by direct light (not just ambient light), the surface normal of each separate part of the object is used to calculate how much direct light is applied to it. Thus, if the two shapes have different normals where they meet, they will be lit slightly differently.
[14:00] Brad Linden: pointside: it's because the way he fixed it shouldn't have fixed the issue, it still could show up, and we didn't understand why his fix should work.
[14:00] Sumie Kawashima: Brent has a point
[14:01] Kooky Jetaime: The Viewer can know its disconnected. Nick's does. :)
[14:01] Kooky Jetaime: and gives you a nice little popup
[14:01] Dahlia Eilde: actually lex i think it has nothing to do with HIM and everything to do with SL™
[14:01] Sumie Kawashima: OMG, Brad, that's ridiculous!
[14:01] Sascha Vandyke: Well if it works for all residents and you don't uinderstand it something must be wrong on your side
[14:01] Ollipeist Balogh: Screw that, fixd for us is fixed for us. Who cares if it "shouldn't" work. It DOES!
[14:01] Kooky Jetaime: Brad, THAT IS NOT LOGICAL!
[14:01] Kooky Jetaime: PArdon the yelling
[14:02] Kooky Jetaime: Your a programmer.
[14:02] Brad Linden: we need to set up better channels to discuss how to improve these things with outside contributors rahter than just all or nothing take their patch as is
[14:02] Kooky Jetaime: "It works. It SHouldn't work though. IT must be wrong." is NOT the reason to not use something.
[14:02] Pastrami Linden: alright, solved or not- I have to end the Nicholasz talk-
[14:02] Brad Linden: it is a reason
[14:02] Sumie Kawashima: BUT IT WORKS, MAN!
[14:02] Pastrami Linden: we have over 50 IMs
[14:02] Pastrami Linden: I agree there's good there, let's get to it later
[14:02] Brad Linden: any change that we don't understand could introduce a security vulnerability
[14:02] Pastrami Linden: no more nicholasz- it's not WL related
[14:03] Kokoro Fasching: The issue is that much of the view code was done on a patch this/cover this up, which opened new bugs.. they are working to bring a standard framework to the system so that fixed do not open new bugs. That is why they can't use all the Nicholaz patches
[14:03] Phil Priestman: So have the open source EXPLAIN it to you.. slowly if needed.
[14:03] Brad Linden: agreed Phil: we need to develop betteer ways of having those discussions with outside contributors
[14:03] Aimee Trescothick: Brad that's the thing there needs to be a better two way dialog once the patch enters the lab, we submit stuff and then it all goes quiet, we need to be kept up to date with progress
[14:04] Kooky Jetaime: Rob's Open Source Meeting is starting now in Hippotropolis, thats where we should all stand up and fight for Nicholas
[14:04] Brad Linden: agreed aimee
[14:04] Pastrami Linden: yes Kooky
[14:04] Pastrami Linden: Kaede your post was too long
[14:04] Celierra Darling: About the "different colors" thing - in other words, there's a crease/bend/angle between the surfaces, and the sunlight is hitting one of the surfaces more directly than the other, so they end up different colors since they're lit differently (Is that an accurate translation?)
[14:05] BigPapi Linden: Celierra: that's exactly right.
[14:05] Pastrami Linden: yes
[14:05] Detour Sideways: the entire prim is a differnmt color though, not just where the geometry bends
[14:06] Pastrami Linden: Kaede if you can write me a much shorter version here I'll answer it
[14:06] BigPapi Linden: Detour, the entire prim can be pointing in a different direction, and I doubt it's a different color altogether (just lit slightly differently).
[14:06] Rex Cronon: what is crash hunters meeting?
[14:06] BigPapi Linden: Detour, the entire prim can be pointing in a different direction, and I doubt it's a different color altogether (just lit slightly differently).
[14:06] Pastrami Linden: Kitty Barnett: If I had ripple water and 128 draw distance and the detail sliders half-way pre-WL, and WL now forces me to use no shaders, 64 draw and the sliders all the way down just to get the same fps I had before, I'm not sure how that's an improvement?... the actual question is: what will actually be done to make Windlight run as well as it did with the *same* settings as the old viewer for older cards?
[14:06] BigPapi Linden: Otherwise if it is a completely different color, then definitely file a PJIRA report with pictures.
[14:06] Pastrami Linden: Kitty- this is the result of us trying to match all the cards
[14:06] Pastrami Linden: sometimes we're off by a bit-
[14:06] Pastrami Linden: BUT
[14:07] Pastrami Linden: by using what I discussed earlier with Low and Custom
[14:07] Pastrami Linden: you can get it to the same point
[14:07] Kitty Barnett: not even remotely close to the same fps... but thankies for answering though, Pastrami...
[14:08] Pastrami Linden: wait Kitty
[14:08] Pastrami Linden: what are you doing, exactly?
[14:08] Phil Priestman: and not having to restarted SL everytime we get booted off, just send us back to the connect screen
[14:08] Iexo Bethune: No problem, Brent. Also, Xfire supports the standard SecondLife Viewer, so friends there can see when you're playing SL, and even log on as well from there. Lots of other stuff too, but I'll cut the chatter on it.
[14:08] Sumie Kawashima: That's not a feature, it's an oversight!! ;-P
[14:09] Dahlia Eilde: chat lag rox my sox.
[14:09] Pastrami Linden: Kitty?
[14:09] Pastrami Linden: Sumie Kawashima: Hi - my avatar slides off slightly angled or rounded prims - like for example a vehicle i hve that has a flattened shpere for part of it. Befor H4, I could stand on it, now I slowly slide off it.
[14:09] Kitty Barnett: to get the same fps (more or less) using the same settings as pre-Windlight.... if I have to lower details, or give up ripple water... then it's broken (in my own personal narrow opinion).. I should not have to give aesthetics to get the same perofrmance
[14:09] Pastrami Linden: that's a Havok 4 issue
[14:09] Pastrami Linden: Havok 4 office hours are at....
[14:09] Kooky Jetaime: Tonight 5pm
[14:09] Sumie Kawashima: But usually it's just my viewer that's disconnected, Whisp, all you guys are still happily chatting in Nevi.
[14:10] Kooky Jetaime: Content To Hover, Center Sim
[14:10] Sumie Kawashima: That's too late for me!
[14:10] pointside Sunbelter: /Jira great... get in line
[14:10] Kooky Jetaime: Then Tuesday, at Noon, same sim
[14:10] chocoletkiss Milk: what are the specs for windlight becasue i am using it and cant see nonne of the wonderful changes like the clouds,, and things.. when i switch to a different one it just goes blue
[14:10] Sumie Kawashima: okay
[14:11] Pastrami Linden: thanks Kooky!
[14:11] Pastrami Linden: start at Low
[14:11] Pastrami Linden: click on CUstom
[14:11] Pastrami Linden: Kitty
[14:11] Amaterasu Cinquetti: that is cos your settings have been put on Low for you chocolate
[14:11] Pastrami Linden: I assure you you can get close if not better than before by tweaking those sliders
[14:11] chocoletkiss Milk: yes they are on low should they be higher
[14:12] Pastrami Linden: chocolet, what hardware?
[14:12] Amaterasu Cinquetti: what about the ATI render glitch bug that makes Windlight unusable at all?
[14:12] chocoletkiss Milk: sent it to you in IM pastrami
[14:12] Zi Ree: Kitty.. you write notecard.. for Pastrami.. so he.. can look.. and explain ..or suggest?
[14:12] Kitty Barnett: don't want to argue over it :(... I know I get half, have been for months and it's been steadily getting worse with every new WL RC
[14:12] Caliah Lyon: yw
[14:12] Nicolas Sinatra moves through the crowd silently, slowly reaching his hand into his coat. He has a Linden in sight, as he begins to slide his hand out of his coat. Alas, something is seen in his hand.. it is, IT IS.. an XCite X3? =O
[14:12] Pastrami Linden: Amaterasu, jira link?
[14:12] Pastrami Linden: chocolte, just paste here
[14:13] Pastrami Linden: my queue is too long :)
[14:13] Amaterasu Cinquetti: hang on Pastrami
[14:13] BigPapi Linden: That's an ATI driver bug which they are working on. Make sure you have the latest drivers, Ameterasu.
[14:13] jjccc Coronet: before you fix the viewer can you put back the trees in morris welcome area shed ive been asking for a year now and no one is bothered
[14:13] chocoletkiss Milk: CPU: Intel Pentium 4 Northwood (3192 MHz) Memory: 1023 MB OS Version: Microsoft Windows XP Service Pack 2 (Build 2600) Graphics Card Vendor: ATI Technologies Inc. Graphics Card: RADEON 9200 Series DDR x86/SSE2 OpenGL Version: 1.3.4955 WinXP Release LLMozLib Version: [LLMediaImplLLMozLib] - 2.01.14327 (Mozilla GRE version 1.8.1.13_0000000000)
[14:13] Iexo Bethune: Nicolas, please don't corrupt our poor Lindens. xD
[14:13] Pastrami Linden: chocolete
[14:13] Pastrami Linden: we can *try*
[14:13] Pastrami Linden: bump up to High
[14:14] Pastrami Linden: though your machine might not like it :)
[14:14] Pastrami Linden: in Graphics
[14:14] BigPapi Linden: A radeon 9200 will not run shaders... Sorry Chocoletkiss
[14:14] Pastrami Linden: oh, there you go
[14:14] Pastrami Linden: but your machine is otherwise good-
[14:14] Pastrami Linden: upgrade your card
[14:14] chocoletkiss Milk: oh bummer
[14:14] Pastrami Linden: you can get the nice skies
[14:14] Pastrami Linden: [13:11] Nenad Maertens: I saw that it is possible to actibate the "drop shadow" option on objects through LSL even if it's not possible to do so with the editor [13:12] Nenad Maertens: will wee se real shadows soon, and when we can expect them? [13:14] Nenad Maertens: Also: the textures with alpha, seem to render badly (i.e. you have a wall with a window done with alpha and you see in front of that wall what is supposed to be behind) when will that be fixed?
[14:15] Pastrami Linden: shadows are coming soon- we have some prototypes we're very happy with
[14:15] chocoletkiss Milk: nah thats not going to happen .. I will go outside in RL and see clouds for free.. LOL
[14:15] BigPapi Linden: I'll answer the alpha question.
[14:15] Pastrami Linden: hehe
[14:15] Pastrami Linden: yep, was looking to you, BigPapi
[14:15] Amaterasu Cinquetti: Pastrami: it is Jira VWR-3258 (been an issue way back in First Look)
[14:16] BigPapi Linden: Without knowing the exact specifics Nenad. It sounds like you're describing an alpha sorting issue.
[14:17] Nenad Maertens: Yes I think so papi
[14:17] Sandor Balczo: YES NENAD THINKS SO PAPI
[14:17] BigPapi Linden: All alpha objects need to be sorted according to disntance from the camera. Unfortunately doing this perfectly would make any 3d engine come to a stop. We thus need to do approximate sorting, which isn't always correct. You need to make sure that you don't create transparent or semitransparent objects that overlap, as this will often trigger the corner cases where sorting breaks down.
[14:18] Kevin Susenko: Most of the discussion regarding alpha sorting seems to be regarding intersecting objects that the renderer would have a hard time discerning the order, but it also happens on objects with transparent textures that are meters appart from each other and not intersecting.
[14:18] Kevin Susenko: *meters
[14:18] Pastrami Linden: Prez Pessoa: Hello Pastrami, it seems that recent client releases have a degradation in lag the more an avatar remains in the same SIM. With a tp things go better to start to degradate again. Is it something related to a different management of the cache? the memory leack?
[14:18] Pastrami Linden: that's almost certainly a memory leak
[14:18] Pastrami Linden: which, as I've said, is a TOP priority right now
[14:19] Pastrami Linden: Dakota Schwade: Inventory & RC Viewer -- Data vs. Paint -- So any problems experienced with Inventory while using an RC viewer, or any viewer, are merely coincidental? The Viewer has no ability to affect Inventory adversely? Thank you
[14:19] Pastrami Linden: Dakota, that is almost always the case, yes
[14:20] Pastrami Linden: Eddy Ofarrel: i'm just wondering, based on what you said earlier about updating to the latest drivers, is the OpenGL shader issue in the newer nVidia drivers no longer an issue in Windlight viewers? because last time i updated to newer drivers, most of the graphics options (in the old viewer) stopped working, and i had to roll back to the old ones
[14:20] Pastrami Linden: BigPapi?
[14:22] BigPapi Linden: Eddy: I have no idea. You would need to try out the latest drivers on your hardware and let US know... :)
[14:22] Pastrami Linden: Master Rabeni: is anyone aware of the problem with created textured clothes, which when be put into a box or given to someone, will "lose" the origin clothes type icon (all went as shirt icon) since the 1.19 viewer?
[14:23] Pastrami Linden: hmm
[14:23] Amaterasu Cinquetti: Pastrami, I gave you the link for the JIRA issue relating to the ATI render bug, did you see it?
[14:23] Pastrami Linden: Amaterasu, as BigPapi said, that's ATI's fault- we can't do anything now-
[14:23] Pastrami Linden: have you tried disabling VBO?
[14:24] Amaterasu Cinquetti: so for us with ATI cards that have the huge render issue making Windlight uplayable, tough luck?
[14:24] BigPapi Linden: Amaterasu:
[14:25] Kooky Jetaime: Amaterasu - Are you talking about the big triangles sticking out of places?
[14:25] BigPapi Linden: We NEVER said tough luck. we said ATI is taking care of it and there's nothing we can do ourselves except help them fix the issue, which we are doing already.
[14:25] Pastrami Linden: and try turning off VBO!
[14:25] Amaterasu Cinquetti: yes I am. and don't say turn VBO off, cos that drops framerate to 1 if lucky (as has been told many times)
[14:25] Abby2403 Perl: Goodbye, everyone!
[14:26] BigPapi Linden: Yes and try turning OFF VBO: control-P-> graphics -> hardware options -> vertex buffer objects.
[14:26] Kooky Jetaime: Amaterasu - Switch to Low
[14:26] Kooky Jetaime: then notch things back up
[14:26] Pastrami Linden: Master Rabeni, I don't know if other people have that issue
[14:26] Pastrami Linden: but it's likely not WL
[14:26] Kooky Jetaime: I think its the Hardware Skinning that is the cause, but I've not been able to confirm it yet.
[14:26] Kooky Jetaime: I've not taken the time to fix it on my laptop, I just rolled back to BE-v
[14:26] Amaterasu Cinquetti: turning VBO off does NOT fix it when you are then forced to sit in a 1FPS on an empty sim
[14:27] Celierra Darling: It's not a fix, it's a workaround to make things usable...
[14:27] Pastrami Linden: it's true- if you mess around long enough in Graphcis Preferences and Hardware Options
[14:27] Kitty Burnett: Kooky-the scarecrow effect is due to "Hardware skinning" (the old "Vertex buffer" option)
[14:27] BigPapi Linden: Have you confirmed that it drops to 1fps on your end?, alternately try turning off hardware skinning.
[14:27] Master Rabeni: ummm? everything is ok tilli pass the item or put it into a box then all skirt boots pants gloves areall shirt icons no matter what i do to correct it?
[14:27] Pastrami Linden: you can get a setting that will work
[14:27] Amaterasu Cinquetti: I don't know what hardware skinning is
[14:27] Pastrami Linden: Master, not our part of the code, sorry :(
[14:27] Kooky Jetaime: Amaterasu -- graphics preferences, click custom, its there.
[14:28] Master Rabeni: who is could you tell me who to ask?
[14:28] Pastrami Linden: do you talk with Torley?
[14:28] Master Rabeni: no i haven't
[14:28] Kooky Jetaime: Master - that sounds more like a database issue
[14:28] BigPapi Linden: Master: You need to shout. I cannot read anything you are saying.
[14:28] Amaterasu Cinquetti: and yes I have confirmed 1FPS. I have tried every Windlight since the 1st First Look
[14:28] Master Rabeni: i have a lot of database missing eroor things now didn't have before
[14:28] Amaterasu Cinquetti: it was fixed on one or two versions, then came back
[14:29] BigPapi Linden: What's your graphics card Amaterasu?
[14:29] Pastrami Linden: Amaterasu, at what graphics setting (low, Mid, etc.) do you usually run?
[14:29] BigPapi Linden: That was going to be my second question. :)
[14:29] Master Rabeni: i don't have the shout option?
[14:29] Amaterasu Cinquetti: old.....but it works fine on all other viewers ATI9600
[14:30] BigPapi Linden: Ah, you should be running that on LOW.
[14:30] Amaterasu Cinquetti: oh, and Dazzle RC does seem to be not so bad in Windlight?
[14:31] Pastrami Linden: Amaterasu, last I'll say on this- if you don't like Low, click Custom, then turn on features ONE BY ONE
[14:31] Pastrami Linden: one of them is avatar skinning
[14:31] Pastrami Linden: something in there is causing you this
[14:31] Pastrami Linden: you just have to find what it is
[14:31] Amaterasu Cinquetti: the only time the render issue hits in that is when I am surrounded by alpha textures (in Dazzle RC)
[14:31] Pastrami Linden: I get that it's not VBO :)
[14:31] Pastrami Linden: we gotta move on
[14:32] Pastrami Linden: Cold Spitteler: i have a question about camera movement, in regards to avatar appearence, and pose balls.. if you draw your cam back more the like 10 meters the people become pixelated, and poses ares all messed up
[14:32] Pastrami Linden: that's impostor distance
[14:32] Pastrami Linden: edit
[14:32] Pastrami Linden: preferences
[14:32] Pastrami Linden: graphics
[14:32] Pastrami Linden: custom
[14:32] Pastrami Linden: either turn avatar impostors off
[14:32] Pastrami Linden: or raise your "Avatar" mesh detail slider
[14:32] Pastrami Linden: but know you won't get as much of a speedup from impostors as before
[14:33] lufpleh Obstreperous: time Torley did a video on the effect of AV imposters and how to turn them off
[14:33] Pastrami Linden: yeah, google avatar impostor tutorial
[14:33] Pastrami Linden: :)
[14:33] Pastrami Linden: Umbra Lunardi: The Mac client clearly does not perform like the PC client. Will we ever see a Mac client that can give performance anything like the PC client??
[14:33] Pastrami Linden: BigPapi?
[14:35] BigPapi Linden: The MAC client has been getting closer and closer to the PC client. Right now there are a couple of issues holding it back
[14:36] Pastrami Linden: Michael Timeless: What computers are you using in your lab (CPU, memory, and GPU [13:15] Michael Timeless: Are you aware of a problem with prims disappearing from view at 700 meters and is this possibly related to the invisible skirt issue. [13:22] Michael Timeless: Ok even with 500 machines there must be a preferred machine type isn't there? [13:48] Michael Timeless: Pastrami what machines are used by LL for high end testing? [14:35] Michael Timeless: Is there something I am missing regarding know what hardware is being run at the Lab?
[14:36] BigPapi Linden: One relates to how we use the memory slider setting and has been fixed internally but not yet release (it's in the QA process)
[14:36] Pastrami Linden: Michael, we test on a vast array,
[14:37] BigPapi Linden: So setting your memory slider in hw options to about 0.4 times the amount of graphics memory you actually have will help.
[14:37] Pastrami Linden: but if you're looking for a recommendation
[14:37] Michael Timeless: What is the most high end that is what I am looking for
[14:37] Pastrami Linden: Go for the latest GeForce card
[14:37] Pastrami Linden: 8 or 9 series
[14:37] Pastrami Linden: WITH A HIGH SECOND NUMBER
[14:37] Pastrami Linden: THIS GOES FOR ANY OF YOU GETTING A GRAPHICS CARD!
[14:37] Michael Timeless: IS there a benifit to using quad core
[14:37] Michael Timeless: for the CPU
[14:37] Pastrami Linden: The first number isn't nearly as important as the second number
[14:38] BigPapi Linden: Then, avatars hw skinning is slightly slower on MACs, but apple is looking into it. Other than that, I recently did a performance comparison on the same hw and the performance was almost identical between Mac and PC
[14:38] Pastrami Linden: for example
[14:38] Sascha Vandyke has a quad and a 8800gtx is nice for other things but not sl
[14:38] Pastrami Linden: I'd get a 7800 over an 8200 any day
[14:38] Shirley Marquez: Michael: for Second Life, not much. If you're a content creator, though, it will run Photoshop a lot better
[14:38] Pastrami Linden: correct
[14:38] Sandor Balczo: BIG PAPI, BY MEMORY SLIDER YOU MEAN THE TEXTURE MEMORY?
[14:39] BigPapi Linden: Sandor: yes
[14:39] Pastrami Linden: Sandor Balczo: First of all, thank you for some interesting tips and for being clear and concise, in spite of my four crashes. Two questions: since I believe that the degrade in performance on my mac from rc 4 to final of 1,19.4 is due to the server code update, do you think we might solve some problems with it or is it caused by some latest addition in the final browser? and two: would it help to set the bandwidth preferences higher in the network tab to imrpove performance? as for the crashes, I am not even guessing if they are related to the overload of idiots here, I have never experienced so many in one night since last September. Thank you.
[14:40] BigPapi Linden: You might need to TP for it to take effect (view you're looking at needs to be cleared for it to really have an effect), else try spinning 360 degrees slowly after modifying the texture memory slider.
[14:40] Pastrami Linden: Sandor, those are fairly broad questions, and I don't have explicit answers- try what you want to make ti better
[14:41] Sandor Balczo: yes but then let me ask you this? what are the bandwidth sliders for?
[14:42] Pastrami Linden: [13:15] Blu Heron: How soon is the new viewer going to be mandatory?...many residents will be locked out of SL...Heres a personal example... [13:15] Blu Heron: With the new viewer my friend can't get SL to launch - gets error message that she doesn't have appropriate driver and not enough RAM. [13:16] Blu Heron: Via phone I walked her through getting the old viewer back...but her SL experience has been been badly harmed...she believes SL is wanting her to buy a new computer! She is discouraged because she is on limited income and has invested a lot of money into SL. Please consider the residents who are happy with the old viewer and operating on borderline specs..Please!!
[14:43] Pastrami Linden: Blu, new viewer will not be mandatory for a long time
[14:43] BigPapi Linden: What's her hardware?
[14:43] Cinco Pizzicato: how long?
[14:43] Pastrami Linden: yeah
[14:43] BigPapi Linden: For all we know it could be a pentium 1 with a voodoo 3 graphics card and 32 mb of ram...
[14:44] Michael Timeless: Not to be rude, but three days after we were told the last mantadory upgrade wasn't, it was
[14:44] Cinco Pizzicato: in my case, year-old MacBook.
[14:45] Pastrami Linden: [13:15] Iexo Bethune: Um... I'm sorry if this is the wrong time to send questions, but I'm finding it hard to see much through the chatter and lag, but here's my question: I noticed Joystick Flycam around 1.17, 1.18 or so, and it's come to my attention it's been approved in 1.19. Furthermore, in 1.20 it seems to even be in the release notes. I am, of course, very excited about this feature that's been promised for years, and thus I was wondering, when will joystick axis and buttons will be available in LSL for use in vehicles? [13:15] Iexo Bethune: Er, approved = improved* [13:31] Iexo Bethune: Another thing, sorry, patches are the reason for SL's lag, memory leaks and instability. Is LL planning to switch to FIXING things, and cut away the spaghetti code caused by the patches soon?
[14:45] Pastrami Linden: Iexo
[14:45] Pastrami Linden: first question
[14:45] Pastrami Linden: I have absolutely no idea
[14:45] Pastrami Linden: :)
[14:45] Iexo Bethune: Poo. ;.;
[14:46] Cinco Pizzicato: ok. no answer for my question. seeya.
[14:46] Pastrami Linden: let me think whose office hours you should go to
[14:46] Pastrami Linden: Havok would work
[14:46] Pastrami Linden: let me find those
[14:46] Iexo Bethune: Yeah, I couldn't figure it out meself, is why I came here, seemed to be general discussion on 1.19, and this is one of the things changed in 1.19.
[14:46] Pastrami Linden: someone pasted them above
[14:47] Pastrami Linden: Andrew Linden Technical issues, SL architecture, physics engine. Tuesdays @ 11:00-12:00 and Thursdays @ 17:00-18:00
[14:47] BigPapi Linden: Pastrami: Excellent turfing of the question to havok..... ;)
[14:47] Pastrami Linden: Secondly Iexo
[14:47] Iexo Bethune: I should prolly find out who's in chanrge of the Joystick thing, so I can give them a free copy of my first joystick vehicle. xD
[14:48] Iexo Bethune: in charge*
[14:48] Pastrami Linden: the patches don't cause the problems, at least it's not as simple as that-
[14:49] Pastrami Linden: thigns get updated-
[14:49] Celierra Darling: By "patches" do you mean like "bandaids" or do you really mean like open source patches?
[14:49] Iexo Bethune: The bandaids.
[14:49] Pastrami Linden: we need to fix security holes, fix problems, and yes, improve the viewer with new features
[14:49] Pastrami Linden: I can explain the last one shortly
[14:49] Pastrami Linden: as a result, new problems arise
[14:49] Pastrami Linden: to say we should have stuck with a viewer 2 years ago isn't right-
[14:49] Pastrami Linden: it wouldn't have scaled as well
[14:50] Pastrami Linden: it had securoity issues we've now fixed
[14:50] Pastrami Linden: etc. etc.
[14:50] Pastrami Linden: Repo your mike is on
[14:50] Sheba Ramir: Pastrami - any movement towards allowing decentralised hosting of region servers - i.e. by region owner?
[14:50] Pastrami Linden: yes
[14:50] Iexo Bethune: No, but it seems to me the more fixes implimented, the less stabile the viewer gets. This seems to be indicative of temporary "duct tape" patches being used as permanent fixes. Is this the case?
[14:50] Pastrami Linden: Though I have no specifics
[14:50] Phil Priestman: Whatever happened to the Open Letter patition and Lindens promise to put new features on hold until everything was stable?
[14:50] pointside Sunbelter: /Thanks for coughing in my ear with your voice dude!! And you baby is crying also
[14:50] Pastrami Linden: Iexo, not exactly-
[14:51] Pastrami Linden: yu have to realize a LOT of issues are cuased by our scaling-
[14:51] Pastrami Linden: and are server our data side
[14:51] Pastrami Linden: ^or
[14:51] BigPapi Linden: Phil. that's what's been going on.
[14:51] Phil Priestman: maybe now it is.. sure wasn't before.
[14:51] Michael Timeless: So scaling is a problem and were going to expand with cheaper islands, makes sense
[14:52] Sheba Ramir: ahem crashed, did i miss my answer?
[14:52] Pastrami Linden: Michael-
[14:52] Iexo Bethune: Well, mainly I'm referring to the client memory leaks, which are my biggest problem, and the most noticable change since the old days, apart from the wonderful bugs that are still around that occured after... Oh what was it, 1.13, 1.14... The missing image thing, it doesn't happen nearly as often anymore... All the same, what I'm referring to is the client-side memory leak.
[14:53] Pastrami Linden: Iexo, that could have come from anywhere- upgrading to a new version of Visual Studio for our code compiling, for all we know at this point-
[14:53] Pastrami Linden: it's the same as cars coming out with defects-
[14:53] Pastrami Linden: you'd think after 100 years of building the things it wouldn't happen
[14:53] BigPapi Linden: Lexo: we've mentioned numerous times today that memory leaks are being VERY actively worked on right now.
[14:54] Pastrami Linden: complex systems lead to unforseen results- nearly always
[14:54] Pastrami Linden: Helaz Saarinen: You did not adress the fact that on 3d video cards you may change the cards 3d settings ?
[14:54] Pastrami Linden: huh?
[14:54] Pastrami Linden: do you mean using the card's native controls? outside of sl?
[14:55] Iexo Bethune: Well the reason it does is cost-cutting measures on the part of the makers to load their pockets faster. And yes, you have, and I'm glad to hear it, but what I'm asking is if the strategy for fixes is being shifted to more permanent fixes to the code itself, or it that's been the case all along.
[14:55] Pastrami Linden: Sascha Vandyke: Well then another question, is the binary crash reporter now removed from the viewer?
[14:56] Pastrami Linden: BigPapi?
[14:57] BigPapi Linden: The crash reporter is ACTIVELY being used. In fact it's been severely overhauled in the last couple of weeks to provide a lot more detailed info on crashes to us so we can do a better job of tracking them down and fixing them.
[14:57] Pastrami Linden: [13:22] Mastorian Kingsford: simple question how do i get my real lands scape distant view back , the wl code makes all sime always have ocean in the distant roads led into qater ect,,, i have always been able to go from 64 to 256 rang for views and see the land now i have water even at 512 range and that flying and mountain views from top of them always show me on island ? [13:22] Mastorian Kingsford: :-)
[14:58] Iexo Bethune: I think what he's asking for is to have the distance fog back...
[14:59] Pastrami Linden: BigPapi, wanna answer this one?
[14:59] BigPapi Linden: Mastorian, there was never any landscape there. :)
[14:59] Pastrami Linden: <bum bum BUUUMMMMM>
[14:59] Iexo Bethune: But the distance fog would hide the water beyond the land you could see. Turning fog distance off would show the water beyond the land sme as WL does.
[14:59] BigPapi Linden: The fog was hiding it, and we weren't dawing water, only a flat brown plane out to the horizon.
[15:01] BigPapi Linden: We've never rendered the terrain out to the horizon.
[15:02] Pastrami Linden: [13:23] Shirley Marquez: is anybody addressing the memory consumption issue? Earlier when we moved from Brampton to Pooley, my viewer went up to 1.3 GIGABYTES and then crashed [13:24] Shirley Marquez: visiting multiple sims, especially ones with as much going on as these do, seems to be a major problem [13:38] Shirley Marquez: on Dazzle: will we have skinnable UI by the time it goes gold? [13:57] Shirley Marquez: Thank you for facing the wrath of the public... I know that appearing at a meeting like this is difficult when there are so many unhappy people! Keep up the good work, and find ways to make it even better :)
[15:02] Pastrami Linden: yes
[15:02] Mastorian Kingsford: i saw it since day one stand on sim see the land way off
[15:02] Pastrami Linden: probably not
[15:02] Mastorian Kingsford: now ocean
[15:02] BigPapi Linden: BTW, we'll be here answering questions another 30-40 minutes.
[15:02] Pastrami Linden: thank you for attending
[15:02] Pastrami Linden: well, I may go a little longer
[15:02] Pastrami Linden: but yeah, this is getting ... fun ;)
[15:03] Mastorian Kingsford: lol you telling me every one with nvida never could see accross the sims lmao
[15:03] Pastrami Linden: xvxRUBYxvx Praga: Do not wish to interrupt but you are aware of the names Central Grid Headquarters and Giant Grid? They are informing people that they are working with LL to later on combine their own lands with yours and selling spots on their regions through ebay. :coughs: Thought you might wish to know. [13:28] xvxRUBYxvx Praga: In the next view. Will there be an option to pan view and return to home view for people who are camping chairs and still looking around them to shop? (I know nothing exciting, but just wondered) [13:29] xvxRUBYxvx Praga: You have to stand up now to get it to return to the home view otherwise, which means getting up from chairs [13:30] xvxRUBYxvx Praga: also noticed that the view windlight to noon is darker now than previous which means one's face looks darker than before
[15:03] Shirley Marquez: Pastrami, I would advice LL to hold off on the UI color changes until residents can change them -- including changing them back to the pre-Dazzle colors
[15:03] Iexo Bethune: Yes, you turn the farclip up as high as it goes, and you see land as far as the eye can see. The trick here is, as far as the eye can see is cut by the distance fog, which prevented users from seeing beyond their farclip, which would render something similar to what you see in Windlight.
[15:04] Iexo Bethune: Windlight has no distance fog, so you're actually seeing beyond the farclip.
[15:04] Pastrami Linden: xvx: didn't know, not really my area
[15:04] BigPapi Linden: Shirley: You should bring that up at dazzle / RC office hours.
[15:04] Shirley Marquez: I'll do that, BigPapi -- thank you
[15:04] Mirella Dallagio: Windlight is killing the PC of many friends of mine, and me too
[15:04] BigPapi Linden: No prob. :)
[15:04] Pastrami Linden: Mirella
[15:04] Mirella Dallagio: Simply unusable, we had to revert back
[15:04] Kitty Barnett: Iexo-it's not just that either
[15:04] Zi Ree: Shirley: https://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/2008-April/009046.html
[15:04] Pastrami Linden: if it's killingthem, at least have the, try Low
[15:04] Pastrami Linden: tehm
[15:04] Pastrami Linden: them
[15:04] Pastrami Linden: doh
[15:05] Pastrami Linden: otherwise it's probably memory
[15:05] Pastrami Linden: which we're on
[15:05] Mirella Dallagio: Why should I try low setting son a viewer when the medium one swere fine on the previous ?
[15:05] Mirella Dallagio: Why should I see worse ?
[15:05] Pastrami Linden: please see above
[15:05] Mirella Dallagio: And *SLOWER*
[15:05] Pastrami Linden: star at low and work up with Custom
[15:05] Mirella Dallagio: I did
[15:05] BigPapi Linden: Because the medium setting on the old viewer does NOT match the medium setting on the new viewer
[15:05] Mirella Dallagio: I know the knobs
[15:05] Mari Moonbeam: low in quality? I crashed?
[15:06] Pastrami Linden: xvx: re: the panning, not sure - I'd go to Benjamin's office hours
[15:06] BigPapi Linden: Medium in windlight is a LOT higher than anything in the old viewer
[15:06] Pastrami Linden: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Office_Hours
[15:06] Mirella Dallagio: And anyway many friends of mine have the GC crashing, simply
[15:06] Pastrami Linden: re: noon and dark, you can set that
[15:06] Pastrami Linden: I mention how above
[15:06] Pastrami Linden: will post to blog
[15:07] lufpleh Obstreperous: I have one o fthe worst performing graphic card in SL, ATI 200 express, the new viewer has had no negative effect, you just have to adjust the settings to get them to match
[15:07] Pastrami Linden: pointside Sunbelter: I am not having any real problems but I was wondering are your 500 test machines on the same network or the same ISP
[15:07] Iexo Bethune: Well, I'd love to stay, but I've been saving all these URLs in the SL browser, and if I crash they'll all be gone, so I better kerpoofer. Thank you, Lindens, for answering my questions, and keep up the good work. Bad as people say things are, SL IS making undenyable progress. Bye bye all!
[15:07] Pastrami Linden: so, let me clarify-
[15:07] Pastrami Linden: the 500 number was completely guessed at, for starters
[15:07] Pastrami Linden: so don't go quoting me on it!
[15:08] BigPapi Linden: And we're spread all over the world. YES the world!
[15:08] Pastrami Linden: yes
[15:08] Mari Moonbeam: 500?
[15:08] Pastrami Linden: so, it's about as dsitributed and disparate as the generla population's
[15:08] pointside Sunbelter shouts: /thanks :)
[15:08] Pastrami Linden: AlwaysIcey Mapholisto: What is being done about the QuickTime issue, where you have the latest version updated, yet SL keeps saying it's out of date?
[15:08] Pastrami Linden: not sure- BigPapi?
[15:08] Pastrami Linden: is this one for Ben?
[15:09] BigPapi Linden: AlwaysIcey: I've heard of the issue and I know *someone* is doing something about it, but it's not really graphics so I don't really have more info, sorry.
[15:09] Michael Timeless: Do you have Itunes and Quicktime, when I upgrade both at the same time I got that error. When I went back in and upgraded just quicktime it went away
[15:09] Michael Timeless: just a thought
[15:10] Pastrami Linden: Whispering Hush: thanks for all the hard work, i noes it must be discouraging to have a viewer seriously borked, but i do remember some viewers that were worse :-) thank you again for all the work you guys did last weekend, i went premium again this week cause of that :-)
[15:10] Pastrami Linden: See people- THIS is how you complain :)
[15:11] Pastrami Linden: thank you Whispering
[15:11] Pastrami Linden: [13:26] Helpless Frog: I have noticed a recent change where objects less than 1m in size are often not rendered passed 20m. This makes it very hard to work on a building as you have to move and forget the camera panning. [13:59] Helpless Frog: Not sure if you addressed my question about small objects being shown past 20m. My main system blue screened and it took 15 mins to get back on backup system. [14:35] Helpless Frog: Could the Avatar imposter feature be causing the small prim rendering issue?
[15:11] Pastrami Linden: BigPapi?
[15:12] Pastrami Linden: okay, I'm going to give you all 5 more mins to IM me, then I *HAVE* to kill the queue's growth else I'll never get to eat dinner :)
[15:12] BigPapi Linden: The avatar impostors are definitely NOT causing that
[15:13] BigPapi Linden: I think it might be related to the interest list sent from the server, which I think depends on avatar position, not camera position.
[15:13] Pastrami Linden: so again, not a rendering issue :)
[15:13] BigPapi Linden: Either way. I know someone was looking into it internally, though I'm not sure what the status is on it.
[15:13] Phil Priestman shouts: so its probably a havok4 issue?
[15:13] Helpless Frog shouts: I used to be able to see them and now I have to get close.
[15:14] BigPapi Linden: Shouldn't be havok 4, but I'm not sure. (aka don't quote me on that) ;)
[15:14] DR Dahlgren: No, it has been doing that for several releases now
[15:14] Pastrami Linden: [13:27] Levy Flanagan: Ok problem my wife has (whom can't be here because she lives in Israel in RL) is as follows she routinely has teleportation malfunction on daily basis since the new viewer. She can't tp to othter places that I can teleport to. She routinely has to ask people to do appearance in order for their avatar to look correct otherwise they look like midgets when they truly aren't midgets. Her inventory loads extremely slow when its only got 6000 items mine has 5 times that amount and mine lods before hers does. She submits tickets and gets answer that are word for word what I found out already. these problems happen again and she goes to live chat and they say "SUBMIT TICKET". Her computer is only 1 year old and has half of the hard drive still free like 55 GB still free. It is a desktop and runs Windows. Now do you know of anyway to help her with these problems? Sincerely, Levy Flanagan
[15:14] Pastrami Linden: Levy, my guess would be connection-
[15:14] DR Dahlgren: Definately not a havoc issue
[15:14] Pastrami Linden: not sure what her connection from Israel is
[15:15] Pastrami Linden: but it's certainly not part of the WL code
[15:15] GOLAN Eilde: if she is using 014 SHE IS FROM ISRAEL
[15:15] DR Dahlgren: I have the same issue, and to SF from my home is 4.5 / 512
[15:15] DR Dahlgren: so not connection issue
[15:16] Pastrami Linden: could be load on the system- again, rememebr my data vs. paint analogy
[15:16] Helpless Frog shouts: The object visibility became a real problem the other day when I had to walk a grid pattern in an area to make sure that nothing was left behind.
[15:16] Pastrami Linden: our team's just painting the data, not moving it around ;)
[15:16] DR Dahlgren: .5 cube dissappears at over 20 m
[15:16] Pastrami Linden: one more minute for new questions
[15:16] Pastrami Linden: [13:28] Arbeloa Tidwell: I'd like to see SL going mainstream and delivering better content. What'sthe objective and strategy given that population growth has slowed to around only 4% per month since July - and that's probably excluding lapsed members? - Thanks
[15:16] Michael Timeless: Thank you for taking the time to do this today. Now can you get your counterparts to do the same?
[15:17] BigPapi Linden: What's the matter pastrami, don't want to have the first Infinitely long office hours? ;)
[15:17] Pastrami Linden: Arbeola- I monitor the stats pretty closely- I know our population and land continue to rise at about the same rate as always, not counting the spike last May
[15:17] windyy Lane shouts: i have objects in my inventory that won't rez , skirts that wont attach... what happnened?? thank you
[15:17] Michael Timeless: Now heading into hour 4 the intrepid Linden team became vulnerable to the other countries of the world.....
[15:17] Phil Priestman shouts: overload is so overrated.. just bring out the whip and make him stay. :>
[15:18] Pastrami Linden: Levy, again- my guess would be her ISP
[15:18] Pastrami Linden: combined with our load as of late
[15:18] Pastrami Linden: but it's not WL code
[15:18] Pastrami Linden: "tameen li" <-- (translate)
[15:18] Pastrami Linden: ;)
[15:18] Mari Moonbeam: that's a magnifyig glass lol
[15:19] Wakizashi Yoshikawa shouts: What to do with objects that say when you try to rez them: Object is missing from database?
[15:19] Pastrami Linden: alright, question time has ended-
[15:19] Pastrami Linden: I will process everything left in the queue
[15:19] Pastrami Linden: but no new ones, please
[15:19] Levy Flanagan: well you try explaining that to an Israeli Jew ...Pastrami.....lol she stubborn as helll and thinks that LL is against her....:-)
[15:19] Pastrami Linden: Levy, LOL
[15:20] Pastrami Linden: tell her "b'shana, habaha" ;)
[15:20] Pastrami Linden: crash rate will be lower
[15:20] Pastrami Linden: 13:29] Kitto Flora: Any plans to have real shadows - raytraced from sun ?
[15:20] Pastrami Linden: yes, in the works, code written :)
[15:21] Pastrami Linden: [13:30] Rails Bailey: why do the developers assume everyone has a top of the range pc, surely it is in LL's best financial interest to create a client that all can us, not just the elite, or better yet, make different versions for different PC performance [13:31] Rails Bailey: come from a maitnenace background, fix when fail, not fiddle and diddle for no reason
[15:21] Pastrami Linden: Rails, to be frank
[15:21] Pastrami Linden: we test on GARBAGE machines
[15:21] BigPapi Linden: Kitto: not actually "ray traced" but yes.
[15:21] Pastrami Linden: 1.19 may have problems, but it is *not* skewed toward faster machines-
[15:22] Pastrami Linden: it runs faster on older hardware than 1.18
[15:22] Pastrami Linden: all the stats keep showing it
[15:22] Pastrami Linden: JUST START AT LOW IN GRAPHICS PREFERENCES
[15:22] Pastrami Linden: and another important thing-
[15:22] Pastrami Linden: crahsing != low end hardware
[15:22] Pastrami Linden: sorry,
[15:22] Pastrami Linden: crahsing is not equal to lw end hardware
[15:23] Pastrami Linden: ^low
[15:23] Phil Priestman shouts: uhhh low end? I'm crashing all the time and my system sure isn't low end junk.
[15:23] Pastrami Linden: memory leaking is not equal to low end hardware
[15:23] Pastrami Linden: exactly!
[15:23] Pastrami Linden: we are a socialistically bad viewer right now ;)
[15:23] Pastrami Linden: equal opporunity, if you will :)
[15:24] Pastrami Linden: [13:31] Abby Callisto: Im just here for a linden bear :P (thought you may like a refreshed IM rather then a lots more angry questions! (this is the end of my questions for today, ty for this meeting, Ive copied it all and will read again later to understand it all better!)
[15:24] Pastrami Linden: alas, I have no Linden bear. Merely marble rye
[15:25] You: Abby: IM me for my linden bear.
[15:25] Pastrami Linden: [13:35] Roxanne Hynes: Earlier you mentioned that everyone should update their drivers to the latest versions, I know that doing that will cause some effects of WindLight to be broken - water/reflection for example. Are there plans to improve driver support or do we just have to wait until nVidia/AMD released new drivers that 'might' support WindLight fully? Thank you;)
[15:25] Pastrami Linden: Roxanne, you don't have to put on the red face light, for starters
[15:25] Pastrami Linden: oh I had to
[15:26] Pastrami Linden: you will have to wait, in those cases,
[15:26] Pastrami Linden: since we're tied to their development
[15:26] Pastrami Linden: but we work with them closely
[15:26] BigPapi Linden: Wow, I should not have sent and open invitation for linden bears. I just got flooded. ;)
[15:26] Pastrami Linden: [13:37] Gwynn Blackburn: I'm on a fixed landline, not wireless. And generally have very negligible packet loss. In addition, I never had this skirt issue before the new viewer. Please reconsider how this bug is viewed.
[15:27] Pastrami Linden: Gwynn, really not sure- we tried forever to nail it- it's very elusive
[15:27] Pastrami Linden: [13:40] DR Dahlgren: Does LL really intend, as it appears to force Dazzle on us, even when resis feedback is so totally negative?
[15:27] Pastrami Linden: I don't know- I'd go to Benjamin's office hours
[15:27] Pastrami Linden: he is in charge of UI
[15:27] DR Dahlgren: I will do that, thank you
[15:27] Pastrami Linden: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Office_Hours
[15:28] Dirk Talamasca: Plans are to make it skinnable so you should find a scheme that you will be comfortable with
[15:28] DR Dahlgren: That would be fine - but with out a skin option, Please dont force Dazzle
[15:29] Taibah Takahe: It's combined with the 1.20 release
[15:29] Taibah Takahe: just an fyi
[15:29] Helpless Frog shouts: Q: What graphics feature is being used when you have "Hardware Skinning" enabled?
[15:29] Leslie Bellios: Good question, I have no idea wat that means either
[15:29] Celierra Darling: DR - it's going on right now, head to http://slurl.com/secondlife/Beaumont/148/155/46/?title=Linden%20Village
[15:31] Levy Flanagan shouts: TY Pastrami ..Night everyone
[15:31] Pastrami Linden: wow
[15:32] Celierra Darling: Test?
[15:32] Phil Priestman shouts: ah there is justice, a linden crashed too.
[15:32] Pastrami Linden: 3.5 hours with this many people and no crash.... till now
[15:32] Pastrami Linden: see people, that's pretty stable :)
[15:32] Pastrami Linden: be back in a sec
[15:34] Pastrami Linden: alright
[15:34] Pastrami Linden: so, since I lost all my pending IMs
[15:34] Pastrami Linden: I'll open it for 10 mins to IM me
[15:34] Pastrami Linden: go!
[15:34] Pastrami Linden: he, managed to get to a lot of them!
[15:36] Pastrami Linden: [15:34] Dirk Talamasca: I have often wanted something like this even before Windlight.. Is there a way that a button that can switch you from preferred settings to low settings could be added to the taskbar OPTIONALLY? This makes it much easier to switch settings when you enter a place where there is really no need for a greater draw distance etc.
[15:37] Helpless Frog shouts: Great idea
[15:37] Pastrami Linden: Dirk
[15:37] Pastrami Linden: a good idea, but fairly easy to do with Preferences
[15:38] Pastrami Linden: [15:35] Leslie Bellios: Sometimes after I crash or just relog I come back to find most people Ruthed. Is there a way I can clear this without having to log off and back on again? [15:35] Leslie Bellios: Can you please make the preference files and cache on multiple copies of the Mac client seperate? I'm pretty sure two programs trying to write to the same preferences file is not good and is causing crashing when I need to be in two places at once (like right now).
[15:39] Pastrami Linden: 1) not that I know of
[15:39] Pastrami Linden: 2) that's a good idea, BigPapi, do you know anything about that?
[15:40] BigPapi Linden: multiple preference files?
[15:40] Helpless Frog shouts: A simple toggle between two saved settings would be good.
[15:41] Leslie Bellios: Yes, BigPapi, right now multiple instances of the viewer use the same preference files and cache, which I would think is bound to cause problems
[15:41] BigPapi Linden: That would be impractical right now, as that would require a lot of re-architecturing for one feature.
[15:41] BigPapi Linden: Leslie: its fine if you don't change things differently in both viewers.
[15:42] Pastrami Linden: [15:35] Kitty Barnett: Object-object Occlusion has been an on/off problem with WindLight (currently somewhat glitchy again - was JIRA'ed with RC4)... is this getting looked at all?
[15:42] Pastrami Linden: probably- Runitai looks at occlusion pretty frequently
[15:42] Kitty Barnett: thankies :)
[15:42] Cherry Kirktown: Where are comman line options for RC 20 documented?
[15:42] Pastrami Linden: [15:35] Zi Ree: Not sure if this question has been asked yet: When editing objects, the outlines now get drawn a little bit "earlier" in frame time, causing them to blur away from the object while camera is moving. Did you see this behavior already? Thanks! :) [15:36] Zi Ree: (on 1.20 (RC0) that is)
[15:42] Pastrami Linden: Yes I did see this!
[15:43] Zi Ree shouts: wee! so.. fix? ;)
[15:43] Pastrami Linden: hehe, I will tell and communicate it
[15:43] Pastrami Linden: [15:35] windyy Lane: greetings!! since the new viewer i have objects in my inventory that will no longer rez..also some skirts and attachments will not attach..any solution? thank you [15:36] windyy Lane: i run 2.6 duel core, 4 gb ram, gefore 8800graphic and am on 1.5 dsl
[15:44] Pastrami Linden: windyy, that's not a viewer issue, unfortunately, probably just our increased load as of late or other server issues
[15:44] Pastrami Linden: here's the link again to those types of issues and what causes them:
[15:44] Pastrami Linden: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Service_Disruptions
[15:45] Pastrami Linden: btw new question time is OVER
[15:45] Pastrami Linden: I will process what's left and wrap it up
[15:45] Pastrami Linden: my poor fingers
[15:45] BigPapi Linden: Pastrami has put his cartoon foot down. ;)
[15:45] Pastrami Linden: [15:35] luc Almendros: Pastrami: what can you say to the skin/clothes creators? No one sees the same thing, how can we work on hour creations. Are we condamned to wear face and body lights? You and Bigpapi, are you wearing these so special avatars to avoid these problems? thx :)
[15:46] Pastrami Linden: luc, don't know if you were here earlier, but all this will be solved when we let estate owners control the lighting
[15:46] BigPapi Linden: Also, let me quickly address face and body lights.
[15:46] Pastrami Linden: frankly, the new settings are much more accurate and I'd love to see people adjusting their content for it, but once you can control it on an estate, you will be in control anyway ;)
[15:47] Pastrami Linden: now I cede the floor to BigPapi
[15:47] BigPapi Linden: They do not work for everybody right now, and they often break content for builders (there are only 6 dynamic lights to go around in the scene)
[15:48] BigPapi Linden: You should NOT be using face or body lights period and they may get prioritized AFTER scene lights in the future.
[15:50] Pastrami Linden: [15:36] lufpleh Obstreperous: scroll in new SEARCH ALL tab is not working, worked in some of the last RC's but not in final release. what is the reason, is there a work around?
[15:50] Pastrami Linden: lufelph, not sure-
[15:50] Pastrami Linden: I'd raise it at Benjamin's hours
[15:50] Pastrami Linden: he does UI
[15:50] Pastrami Linden: [15:37] Sheba Ramir: HI pastrami - my question - can region owners set up their own LL server to ensure good regional reponse - in my location there is also a request for more "parental controls" i.e. sharia law and a regional server is prefered
[15:51] Pastrami Linden: Sheba, that's on our roadmap- but not sure when
[15:53] Pastrami Linden: [15:43] Celsia Lameth: Will we ever see anything like Light Occlusion? Objects blocking out light.
[15:53] Pastrami Linden: yes- shadows
[15:53] Pastrami Linden: coming soon (tm)
[15:53] Celsia Lameth: wewt!
[15:53] Zi Ree shouts: yay!
[15:54] Pastrami Linden: [15:45] Eleonora Porta: my question is 14,11 now you're replaying question of 15,36..mmh I have no hope ...may be I was in crash when you answerded me. What apity! It's too late see you next time and thank's for your help everyone.
[15:54] Pastrami Linden: Eleonora what was your question?
[15:54] Mastorian Kingsford: hey he was trying to say this----->WeedMan Waco: well since i installed the updated SL my av and everyone elses av ar ghost like
[15:55] Pastrami Linden: I would advise he turn off avatar impostors
[15:55] Pastrami Linden: OR
[15:55] Sallyanne Forcella: I would like to know why I'm missing clothes from my inventory??
[15:55] Pastrami Linden: so would we
[15:55] Sallyanne Forcella: only have partial clothing
[15:55] Pastrami Linden: see above :)
[15:55] Pastrami Linden: OR
[15:55] Pastrami Linden: raise Avatar mesh detail
[15:55] Pastrami Linden: all of this is in Graphics Preferences when you click on CUstom
[15:55] Sallyanne Forcella: raising Avatar mesh detail will slove the problem with clothes missing?
[15:56] Pastrami Linden: no, this is WeedMan's ghost people
[15:56] Sallyanne Forcella: oh sorry
[15:56] Pastrami Linden: I think paranoia is to blame, but that's a known symptom ;)
[15:56] Sallyanne Forcella: I thought it was for me
[15:56] Pastrami Linden: okay all, THAT IS IT!!
[15:56] Helpless Frog shouts: Thanks again Pastrami and BigPapi.
[15:56] Wakizashi Yoshikawa shouts: i would like to know (already asked this) did Object missing from database when trying to rez it means my build is went void() ?
[15:56] Kitty Barnett: thankies, Pastrami and BigPapi for lasting 4 hours :)
[15:56] Celierra Darling: Sallyanne - this is probably the wrong group of people to ask about that, that sounds like it should be server-side / database problems...
[15:56] Svetlana Varriale: i want to know why i have chat lag, i type something in and it doesnt come up till about 8 second later
[15:56] Pastrami Linden: I can no longer see straight, but rest assured all of this will be on the blog!
[15:57] Charm Perway: CHat lag that is out of order to boot
[15:57] Sallyanne Forcella: Oh..thanks Celierra...I really appreciate that...
[15:57] Zi Ree shouts: Pastrami ..BigPapi ..great meeting!
[15:57] Sallyanne Forcella: sorry all
[15:57] Celsia Lameth: Thanks Pastrami and BigPapi!
[15:57] Sallyanne Forcella: I'll just leave then ...
[15:57] Zzzyen Graves: Thanks Pastrami and BigPapi!
[15:57] Pastrami Linden: thank you all for attending!
[15:57] BigPapi Linden goes pass out