Open Source Meeting/2008-06-12

<< Open Source Meeting
== Agenda ==
* - "Avatar Rendering Cost" blanks current hover text. Sheet Spotter 13:48, 12 June 2008 (PDT)
**I would like to understand the process for assisting LL to identify and correct JIRA issues.
**For example, I added a comment to VWR-6994 to describe the cause of this problem.
***Is this the correct procedure? 
***Do I need to inform someone when the cause of a problem has been identified?
**Pointing me at any existing process that a developer should follow would be appreciated
* Puppeteering - Jake gave us the source code to discuss and play.. so Discuss! (seriously, not sure if there is much if better items turn up last minute then please replace) Michelle2 Zenovka 08:04, 5 June 2008 (PDT).
* Somethng about this: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-1272Saijanai 14:29, 12 June 2008 (PDT)
== Transcript == 
* [14:01] Rob Linden: howdy
* [14:01] Sheet Spotter: Allo, allo
* [14:01] Analog Nihilist: Hey there.
* [14:01] Karu Seetan: hay
* [14:02] Carjay McGinnis: evening Rob
* [14:04] Rob Linden: I'm going to do some last minute agenda cleanup
* [14:04] Rob Linden: (last week's agenda is stil there)
* [14:04] Carjay McGinnis: not entirely
* [14:04] Sheet Spotter: I added one piece a few minutes ago.
* [14:04] Rob Linden: yeah, I saw that....keeping it
* [14:04] Sheet Spotter: Cool. Thank you.
* [14:05] Carjay McGinnis: and not sure if we got to the puppeteering last week
* [14:05] Sheet Spotter: Feel free to reword it. It's more a question of process than it is about that specific JIRA issue.
* [14:06] Free Radar: HUD v1.0 by Crystal Gadgets (Babeli 128,128,22)
* [14:06] Carjay McGinnis: think Michelle is currently out of the office but I wasn't sure if she was unable to wrangle the agenda for today already or only for the next two weeks
* [14:06] Carjay McGinnis: think she meant for today as well, hm
* [14:08] Rob Linden: saijanai...I think we're editing over one another.....let me finish
* [14:08] Saijanai Kuhn: I added a last minute item on the agenda...
* [14:09] Saijanai Kuhn: OOps sorry push mine to the end
* [14:09] Karu Seetan: Rob do you have a linden bear?
* [14:09] Vent Sinatra: lol
* [14:09] Carjay McGinnis: do we need version control for the agenda?
* [14:10] Rob Linden: ok, add your agenda item saijanai
* [14:11] Rob Linden: first item: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-6994
* [14:11] Rob Linden: # VWR-6994[c
* [14:12] Sheet Spotter: I added specific details about the cause of the problem, but there is noone assigned to the problem.
* [14:12] Rob Linden: lemme take a look at the corresponding internal report and see if there's anything there
* [14:12] Sheet Spotter: How do I ensure the information gets to the right person?
* [14:12] Sheet Spotter: Is the JIRA even the correct place for that sort of information?
* [14:13] Rob Linden: yes, JIRA is a great place for this
* [14:13] Carjay McGinnis: I was surprised in a positive way to find a comment by a linden on a JIRA I made regarding a fix in an internal branch
* [14:14] Carjay McGinnis: so it seems at least someone really takes a look at the JIRA comments
* [14:14] Rob Linden: there's nothing extra in our internal repository, other than a note that someone else had read your comment, Sheet
* [14:14] Sheet Spotter: I mentioned it to Bridie.
* [14:15] Rob Linden: I also think it's ok (and encouraged) to followup on sldev@
* [14:15] Sheet Spotter: Is there an established process for outside developers to help LL identify and correct JIRA issues?
* [14:15] Carjay McGinnis: that JIRA still is "unassigned" though
* [14:15] Carjay McGinnis: 6994 I mean
* [14:16] Sheet Spotter: I don't want to be inventing my own process, if there is already an established process.
* [14:16] Carjay McGinnis: I think that process is still in its infancy and growing
* [14:16] Rob Linden: looks back through the transcript a couple meetings ago
* [14:17] Rob Linden: hmmm....I can't find it so I'll repeat it here:
* [14:18] Rob Linden: I'd recommend:
* [14:18] Rob Linden: 1. file the issue in PJIRA if it's not there already
* [14:18] Rob Linden: 2. Announce you'd like to work on it on sldev@
* [14:19] Rob Linden: 3. If you really want to avoid duplicate work, wait for either explicit acknowedgement, or a business day or two
* [14:19] Rob Linden: 4. Go to work
* [14:19] Vent Sinatra: lol
* [14:20] Rob Linden: I think #3 is optional, because silence isn't exact assent, but sometimes we do respond given a chance :)
* [14:22] Sheet Spotter: I was intimidated by the high volume on SLDEV. I'll have to get over that.
* [14:22] Rob Linden: oh, hey, I found it. scroll down to [14:28
* [14:22] Sheet Spotter: Thank you.
* [14:22] Carjay McGinnis: high volume?
* [14:23] Rob Linden: Sheet: we would LOVE to talk about actual coding rather than policy discussions about code no one is writing yet
* [14:23] Carjay McGinnis: high volume is usually restricted to some topics which most of the time do not even refer to the source code itself
* [14:23] Rob Linden: so please, set a good example, post about coding :)
* [14:23] Carjay McGinnis: agreed, though some policy discussion is necessary
* [14:23] Saijanai Kuhn: love that cloud
* [14:24] Carjay McGinnis: but sometimes I feel like people should lean back for a couple of hours and rethink what they want to post
* [14:24] Carjay McGinnis: but, well, still some time to go until it reaches the SNR of the kernel mailing list
* [14:25] Rob Linden: precisely Carjay
* [14:27] Rob Linden: with respect to the actal content of VWR-6994...
* [14:27] Rob Linden: I don't have any advice to give, but maybe one of the devs here does
* [14:28] Poppy Linden: has no clue, not a viewer dev
* [14:28] Carjay McGinnis: looking at it but didn't notice it yet but from what Sheet wrote I guess it's one of those "need some input from Linden devs" situations which I have had in the past, too
* [14:29] Rob Linden: k....well, I'll fire an internal ping at Linden Lab and see if I can stir up a comment or two.
* [14:29] Saijanai Kuhn: updated the agenda. Guess my item didn't stick due to the conflicts
* [14:29] Rob Linden: in the meantime, Sheet: could you post to sldev?
* [14:30] Sheet Spotter: I'll need to join first, but yes. I'll post.
* [14:30] Rob Linden: excellent, thanks!
* [14:30] Rob Linden: onward!
* [14:30] Carjay McGinnis: I guess it's one of those "little" things that one would just start on but usually doesn't because one does not want to interfere if there's any internal cleanup
* [14:30] Rob Linden: Puppeteering - Jake gave us the source code to discuss and play.. so Discuss! (seriously, not sure if there is much if better items turn up last minute then please replace) Michelle2 Zenovka 08:04, 5 June 2008 (PDT).
* [14:31] Saijanai Kuhn: mine could (and will) take hours to dsicuss, so save it to the last, for sure
* [14:31] Rob Linden: in case you're wondering "what's Puppeteering?", I just updated the wiki page
* [14:32] Carjay McGinnis: I admit I didn't do anything with that branch yet so can't really comment, there were some posts on JIRA about it though
* [14:32] Rob Linden: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Puppeteering
* [14:32] Carjay McGinnis: errr sldev I mean
* [14:33] Rob Linden: there's not too much to say on the topic here. I didn't give Jake the heads up that we'd be talking about this, so we may ust want to move on
* [14:33] Vent Sinatra: sounds very interesting, especially the in-world animation
* [14:34] Carjay McGinnis: guess one needs to try it to see how it works out
* [14:34] Saijanai Kuhn: lots of potential uses once you get away from mice. Like the 3D cam that Kapor's team is working on, or Wii control, or even an Iphone
* [14:34] Rob Linden: let's move on, and if someone has anything pressing to ask about it, we can backtrack
* [14:34] Rob Linden: next item: Somethng about this: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-1272Saijanai 14:29, 12 June 2008 (PDT)
* [14:35] Saijanai Kuhn: /wave
* [14:35] Saijanai Kuhn: that needs some kind of addressing asap. People are already ripping entire builds and putting them on OpenSim
* [14:36] Saijanai Kuhn: which would be OK IMHO if they bothered to ask permission of the content creators, but everyone is assuming that "open permissions" applies outside second life
* [14:36] Saijanai Kuhn: so they're just grabbing without asking
* [14:37] Saijanai Kuhn: and I've talked to lots of content creators who did NOT intend for full permissions to apply to an open sim build
* [14:38] Saijanai Kuhn: anyway, the easiast and fastest thing to do is an a greyed out option which is xed that says [x
* [14:38] Saijanai Kuhn: and blog about it that the TOS doesn't cover copying without permission and to obtain permissoin
* [14:38] Saijanai Kuhn: that buys you guys time utnil you create real policies and interfaces and mod the asset server to use them
* [14:39] Rob Linden: well, I'm not sure this particular set of people is going to drive that initiative
* [14:39] Saijanai Kuhn: OK, wasn't sure
* [14:40] Saijanai Kuhn: bt if you look at the coments on that jira its obvoiusly a big isue.
* [14:40] Rob Linden: I'm honestly not sure where to direct this. Per the mail I just sent, the legal concerns should be directed per the TOS
* [14:40] Saijanai Kuhn: Zero's became a mob when I spammed to the building group we were having an open kvetch sesion on the cross-grid permissions issues
* [14:41] Carjay McGinnis: I think it is not really a good item for sldev
* [14:41] Rob Linden: I'm certainly not a fan of the "sky is falling, drop everything" approach that seems to be hapening
* [14:41] Saijanai Kuhn: zero and tes couldn't make it so we just discussed in open
* [14:41] Saijanai Kuhn: well, if I've fostered that, sorry. But I think its already an issue
* [14:42] Saijanai Kuhn: the "[ermegency will robinson
* [14:42] Carjay McGinnis: sure but it can't really be solved by developers
* [14:42] Saijanai Kuhn: it affects everyone, so everyone needs to have input and/or understand the issues
* [14:43] Rob Linden: that's really not a good reason to post to sldev
* [14:43] Saijanai Kuhn: OK
* [14:43] Rob Linden: there is a development aspect to this, which is ok, but it's probably gotta be driven from a policy requirement that's not firmly established
* [14:44] Saijanai Kuhn: sure, which is why my current suggestoin is just the greyed out x and reminder that the TOS doesn't cover and to seek permisson directly from the creator
* [14:44] Rob Linden: any other Lindens have suggestions for the best way to constructively approach this?
* [14:44] Poppy Linden: i'm not sure how this issue is immediate - despite tech demos and open grid research and development, i'm not aware of any posts or other communications about imminent open-grid interconnections
* [14:45] Carjay McGinnis: it is a question of policy, how to deal with the situation of content being able to "leak" to other sims
* [14:45] Q Linden: I don't know enough law to know whether Saijanai is correct about what's implied (or not) about content transfer in the TOS
* [14:45] Saijanai Kuhn: there's a program Second Inventory, which people are already using to rip builds and put them on SL
* [14:45] Sheet Spotter: Where should the issue be pursued?
* [14:45] Saijanai Kuhn: Second INventory ONLY moves full permissions items under teh assumption that is ok
* [14:45] Q Linden: So this feels to me like "someone who's had their content moved in this fashion needs to complain"
* [14:45] Saijanai Kuhn: but its not automatically OK under the TOS without first getting approval from teh original creator
* [14:46] Rob Linden: skims list of Linden office hours
* [14:46] Saijanai Kuhn: so I think people who want to play by the rules need to understand the rules (such as they are)
* [14:46] Sheet Spotter: GTeam?
* [14:48] Saijanai Kuhn: Mind you , I don't have an interest as a creator, just as someone who wants SL and teh open grid to work "right" from the start
* [14:48] Soft Linden: Honestly, I'd probably JIRA a proposal or a series of requests for clarifications on very specific issues.
* [14:48] Rob Linden: G-Team and/or Robin's office hour
* [14:48] Saijanai Kuhn: OK
* [14:48] Saijanai Kuhn: thans Rob
* [14:48] Soft Linden: I don't know who makes the decision but with the JIRA at least we import and can make sure someone always owns the problem
* [14:49] Saijanai Kuhn: I'll reference the ongoing discussion on thefirst jira
* [14:49] Rob Linden: anything else on this?
* [14:50] Basil Wijaya: If I understand what you mean, it is not a good idea to get to public the consequences of not secured Open Sim
* [14:50] Basil Wijaya: ?
* [14:50] Saijanai Kuhn: not sure what you are asking, Basil
* [14:51] Rob Linden: Basil: I don't understand what you're saying
* [14:51] Basil Wijaya: Well maybe it is because I dont really understand what you said
* [14:51] Saijanai Kuhn: The open permissions, as I understand the TOS, applies only to Second LIfe grid, not to an OPenSim, private or otherwise, so when peole copy stuff to it without permisson from the creator, they're on shakey ground
* [14:52] Basil Wijaya: od
* [14:52] Basil Wijaya: ok
* [14:52] Saijanai Kuhn: and a lot of people seem to want to do the right thing, but dont understand what the right thing IS
* [14:53] Sheet Spotter: As I understand, the JIRA article suggests a way to make it clearer that moving content from SL to OpenSim is not permitted.
* [14:53] Saijanai Kuhn: without permission at the least
* [14:54] Saijanai Kuhn: becaue LL can't grant permission for that
* [14:55] Rob Linden: one other thing I'd like bring up before we go (if I can switch topics)
* [14:55] Saijanai Kuhn: thanks guys
* [14:55] Poppy Linden: this sounds like a copyright issue that we just don't currently have bits for in our system. however, bits dont change the fact that this is a legal issue, not a technical one, and not something developers should be discussing.
* [14:55] Rob Linden: we've vaguely hinted that we're investigating a replacement for Mozilla
* [14:55] Carjay McGinnis: right, developers just want to know which bits they have to wrap the "if" around
* [14:56] Carjay McGinnis: think there were some talks about Webkit?
* [14:56] Rob Linden: we've been contracting with a third party (Nuanti) to prototype Webkit in our viewer. that's not a commitment to move to webkit, but just that we'd like to see some code to help inform a decision
* [14:57] Saijanai Kuhn: I think ,personally, a dialog box, "DId you ask the creator personally if copying is OK" is the only "bit" available right now
* [14:57] Rob Linden: Alp Toker at Nuanti just posted this: http://www.atoker.com/blog/2008/06/12/webkit-meta-a-new-standard-for-in-game-web-content/
* [14:58] Carjay McGinnis: ah, cool
* [14:58] Rob Linden: I'll post something to sldev@ about this after this meeting, but I figured I'd give you all a chance to look at it for first reactions
* [14:59] Carjay McGinnis: thanks Rob
* [14:59] Liana Linden: reads...
* [14:59] Rob Linden: I'm really glad Nuanti is taking the ball and running with it. even if we don't move to Webkit, it's nice to see someone agressively targetting this market
* [14:59] Poppy Linden: hey, where's the code?
* [15:00] Soft Linden: He mentions plans of a public svn in his writeup.
* [15:00] Carjay McGinnis: funny to see they took uBrowser for demonstration
* [15:00] Poppy Linden: word
* [15:01] Rob Linden: ubrowser has an identical interface to the Second LIfe viewer, so there should be pretty minimal integration costs of the final output there
* [15:01] Carjay McGinnis: probably not yet ready going by "run up to our first code drop"
* [15:02] Carjay McGinnis: sure, I just always took uBrowser as a demo for what can be done with GRE
* [15:02] Sheet Spotter: Is the goal to extend this to web-on-a-prim? Or just to replace existing browser usage?
* [15:02] Rob Linden: we have the demo code, and understand why he wants to do a little cleanup before the public release :) it's actually pretty nice based on our initial investigation, but we probably haven't poked sharp enough sticks at it yet
* [15:03] Rob Linden: Sheet: yes :)
* [15:03] Squirrel Wood: Need sharper sticks then.
* [15:03] Rob Linden: anyway, we've got -4 minutes left, so we should get going
* [15:04] Sheet Spotter: Thank you for this hour, Rob
* [15:04] Rob Linden: thanks everyone!
* [15:04] Saijanai Kuhn: Thanks everyone
* [15:04] Carjay McGinnis: yeah, thanks everyone
* Rob Linden