Open Development User Group/Archive/2011-05-16

07:00 	Ardy Lay  	Hi
  	Oz Linden  	hi everyone
  	draconis.neurocam 	hello oz
  	Office Orb  	mail_to set to oz@lindenlab.com
  	  	Start transcription to oz@lindenlab.com
  	  	Transcript will be sent to: oz@lindenlab.com
07:01 	Oz Linden  	we seem to have one new OPEN issue this morning... open-65
  	Office Orb  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-65
OPEN-65 autobuild build for 3p-ogvorbis defaults to vs2005 even though configured under a vs2010 express shell
  	Ardy Lay  	It's kinda fun to travel to other people's places in SL and hear some of the same bird calls I hear outside my RL home.
07:02 	Oz Linden  	I love those birds....
07:03 	  	I've got a few of them ; they're made by Sandry Logan
  	Ardy Lay  	tries to understand that JIRA issue.
  	Oz Linden  	I could use some help with that myself...
  	  	it seems unlikely that the lib was built by 2005 on our servers, but I can try to find that build....
07:04 	Jonathan  	I think Nicky is saying that when he tries to build that lib it uses the wrong compiler
  	Ardy Lay  	Well, I don't have six thoudand things installed and path variables of disturbing proportions so I cannot replicate stuff like that.
07:05 	Oz Linden  	is looking at our build log....
  	Ima Mechanique  	hmm gonna try it myself
07:06 	Jonathan  	There was some talk about this in IRC yesterday
  	Ardy Lay  	Hehe, guess I am lazy, just using the precompiled libraries.
  	Jonathan  	<NickyP> Is there a way to specify the build program in 3p-ogvorbis autobuild configure / build. mine defaults to VS2005 / devenv. I am runninh from a Setting SDK environment relative to C:\Program Files\Microsoft SDKs\Windows\v7.1
07:07 	Wolfpup  	that could be an issue in the autobuild or build.sh for that repository
07:09 	Ima Mechanique  	most of the 3p-* stuff do not really use the autobuild.xml
07:10 	Wolfpup  	i know they use cygwin on windows
  	Oz Linden  	it may take me a while to figure out if our build did the same thing, but I'm going to be surprised if it did
  	Moy  	Cygwin can cause quite a bit of issues when you're using that env to make the build files
07:11 	Ima Mechanique  	og vorbis bugged out on me
  	Oz Linden  	the assumption of most of the builds is that you're environment is set up to use 2010 by default, I suspect
07:12 	  	if that's not true yet, then you should probably change it
  	Ima Mechanique  	trying to build 3p-ogvorbis I get an error for devenv.com, which isn't available of course on Express
07:13 	Oz Linden  	ah, well, that's different
  	Ima Mechanique  	if that's hardcoded into the build-cmd.sh I can probably fix it
  	Oz Linden  	we've worked around that in the main viewer build, but I suspect most of the 3p-* builds expect devenv
07:14 	Ima Mechanique  	it's mostly autobuild that expects it Oz.
  	  	when it's coded into the build-cmd.sh for the repo it's fixable ;-)
07:15 	Oz Linden  	If someone can propose a general fix that auto-detects express vs other editions and does the right thing, we'll review it
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	I thought there was a solution that'd work on both express and non-express? If so, no detection needed.
  	Oz Linden  	but the community will have to come up with it, because we pay for our VS
07:16 	Ima Mechanique  	hmm, not really possible. only workable solution I can see is if TC moves to using msbuild instead of devenv.
  	Oz Linden  	Yes, that would be ok too, obviously
  	Ima Mechanique  	boroondas, that's the msbuild way
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	Yeah, that's what I meant. Are there any drawbacks in using msbuild only?
07:17 	Ima Mechanique  	none that I know of. We need to talk to someone on the TC side of stuff to hash out possibilities
  	  	Brad probably
  	Oz Linden  	or Alain
  	  	or more likely both
  	Ima Mechanique  	yeah
07:18 	Oz Linden  	whatever solution we come up with has to also be compatible with Incredibuild
  	Ima Mechanique  	Incredibuild is actually separate Oz. so not a problem
  	  	it has it's own checks in the code which then run custom commands
07:19 	Oz Linden  	in my experience, when it comes to build environments, almost nothing is a completely independent choice :-)
07:20 	Ima Mechanique  	true, and nothing is as simple as it appears ;-)
  	Oz Linden  	Is there someone here that uses VS Express that can try to repro this issue from Nicky?
07:21 	  	I'll ask on the list, I guess....
  	Ima Mechanique  	I can try, not sure I have a close enough environment though
07:22 	Oz Linden  	just check it out and try to build it...
  	draconis.neurocam 	i would imagine if someone were to try to, they would need 2005 installed, which i do not
  	Ima Mechanique  	I don't have 2005 installed, only 2008 and 2010
  	Oz Linden  	welll, if you don't, then certainly don't install it for this :-)
  	  	it may be that the answer is "uninstall 2005 and try again"....
07:23 	Ardy Lay  	Heh
  	  	Yeah, I clean out the old stuff.
  	Oz Linden  	As I've said before, compatibility with the old environment is not a goal
  	  	in fact, I might go so far as to say it's an un-goal
07:24 	  	anyway ....
  	  	other topics ?
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	came here late. Is the issue in question when using 2005 or when using 2010 while 2005 is installed, too?
  	Jonathan  	Oz, being able to compile TPVs that need 2005 would be a concern to me
  	Oz Linden  	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-65
  	Office Orb  	OPEN-65 autobuild build for 3p-ogvorbis defaults to vs2005 even though configured under a vs2010 express shell
  	Jonathan  	There is probably some less drastic work-around
07:25 	Oz Linden  	TPVs that are that far behind are going to get un-interesting pretty fast
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	I think it'd be nice to allow for several VS versions to be installed, so people don't need different machines to work on several different viewers.
  	Zi Ree  	Virtualization ;)
  	Oz Linden  	like I said, I'll test proposed solutions, but we won't spend time on devising them
07:26 	  	good thought, Zi
  	Moy  	That requires another Windows license though, for Windows users, that is
  	Zi Ree  	Well ... yeah ;)
07:27 	Oz Linden  	There's a lot of new stuff coming that is going to make 1.x code base viewers obsolete, and we're not talking about the distant future
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	Well, non-Windows users don't have problems with different VS versions, anyway :-P
  	The Raptor  	Virtual Systems
  	  	?
  	  	or visual studio?
  	Oz Linden  	the latter
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	yep
  	The Raptor  	thanks
07:28 	Oz Linden  	Has anyone looked at the storm-1100 viewer?
  	Office Orb  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-1100
STORM-1100 Add new and changes to GPU_Table.txt
  	Zi Ree  	virtualizes to compile for different glibc versions on Linux.
07:29 	Oz Linden  	Keeping up with new GPUs is an area I hope that open source can help with; it's a problem particularly amenable to a crowdsource solution
  	Ardy Lay  	Oz, I'll try it but doesn't look like it will like my GTX 570
  	Oz Linden  	do you have the exact string?
07:30 	  	(the logging on that version is better)
  	Zi Ree  	We try to keep ours up to date.
  	Wolfpup  	Oz i tried that viewer on my system and it crashes on start and i did post my logs to the issue
  	Ardy Lay  	NVIDIA GTX 570 .*NVIDIA.*GeForce GTX 57.* 3 1
07:31 	Oz Linden  	thanks wolfpup.... on my list to look at today
  	  	no, I meant the id string from the driver, not the expression from gpu_table
  	Ardy Lay  	Oh, that's just what I put in the table to keep the viewer from clobbering my settings.
07:32 	Zi Ree  	I wonder if it was possible to display the string and a message as a dialog if it's not found and send it to a server to collect them.
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	+Zi
07:33 	Oz Linden  	My idea is that once this issue is integrated, I'll create a 'New GPU' issue due in a few months, and ask people to create subtasks under it for any un-or-mis-recognized GPU
  	Zi Ree  	"Your graphics card: XXX YYY ZZZ was not identified by our list. Would you like to send this information to our database?"
  	Oz Linden  	They are already sent to us
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	ah
  	Oz Linden  	they're in the stats packet
  	Zi Ree  	Ooh, okay!
07:34 	Jonathan  	I think the trouble is that someone has to categorize each card and add it to the table?
  	Oz Linden  	that's where the values in indra/newview/tests/gpus_seen.txt (in my storm-1100 branch) come from
  	Ardy Lay  	GeForce GTX 570/PCI/SSE2 <- This?
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	Would be nice if the viewer could auto-tune itself without any knowledge of the graphic card.
  	Zi Ree  	Runa test and record FPS you mean?
  	The Raptor  	shame there isn't a way to detect if a card meets x requirements
07:35 	Moy  	You can easily find out if certain shader modes are there
  	Jonathan  	I saw a suggestion once to have the graphic settings auto adjust to maintain a certain FPS
  	Oz Linden  	You're right, Ardy... that's not recognized
  	Moy  	Find out how many cores, and what speed each core is, that's a simple way to see if a user can handle low/med/ultra settings, and basic shaders
  	Oz Linden  	you think it should be a class 3?
  	Ardy Lay  	Yes
07:36 	  	In SL the GTX570 and GTX580 are performing identically, after I mess with the GPU table.
  	Oz Linden  	I'll get that in then before I integrate... thanks
  	  	This is a perfect example
07:37 	  	There's no way we can actually test all the cards out there....
  	The Raptor  	of course
  	Jonathan  	Is that gpu file downloaded after it is updated or does it require a new viewer install?
  	Wolfpup  	the viewer on my linux laptop misregisters the gpu Which is an intel gpu
  	The Raptor  	ahh same
07:38 	Zi Ree  	I think it needs a new viewer installation.
  	Oz Linden  	The table is included in the viewer
  	  	in theory at least, we can override that table though
  	Zi Ree  	Maybe it could be made to load dynamically from the web?
07:39 	Oz Linden  	When the viewer starts, it builds a url from its own version number and tries to fetch a new gpu_table
  	The Raptor  	hmm
  	Oz Linden  	so if we needed to badly enough, we could put a new table at that url
  	  	but that's not normally used
07:40 	The Raptor  	just as a thought, instead of grabbing a new gpu table, it could be made to check if the gpu is listed
  	  	shrugs
  	Oz Linden  	The gpu recognition should only affect your default settings
07:41 	  	and in a few cases, I think, whether or not certain things like shadows are available
  	Tillie Ariantho  	I hate new installes resetting my graphic settings each time.
  	  	installs
  	Zi Ree  	And number of local lights.
  	Oz Linden  	basically, it's the number of shaders, if I understand it correctly
07:42 	Moy  	The number of local lights aswell
  	Zi Ree  	still needs to get more into the render side of things.
  	The Raptor  	I thought the number of local lights was always limited to 8 or 9
  	Zi Ree  	8 is the maximum, 6 usable for builders.
  	Moy  	8 openGL light sources
  	  	Yes
  	Tillie Ariantho  	Local lights ... there is still no switch back in in the 2.x clients to disable them ...
  	The Raptor  	yeah
07:43 	Zi Ree  	But if your card gets classed as class 0 ,it wiill only use 2 lights.
  	  	2 for builders.
  	Oz Linden  	I thought we put in a way to disable local lights?
  	Han Shot First  	it's coupled with basic shaders right now
  	The Raptor  	debug? :p
07:44 	  	ahh
  	Tillie Ariantho  	Oz: Which dev build? I didnt find it anywhere.
  	Han Shot First  	so you can't disable them if you have basic shaders enabled
  	Zi Ree  	I have "Local Lights: Maximum / Limited / None".
  	Oz Linden  	ah... it was 'Render Attached Lights' (Develop menu)
  	Tillie Ariantho  	sucks. so if I am forced to use a 2.x client I can stop taking photos, cause local lights mess up everything. great.
07:45 	Kitteh Scientist  	Attached != local lights
  	Oz Linden  	hates features hidden in the Develop menu
  	Kitteh Scientist  	local light can also be non-attached
  	Jonathan  	Tillie, there is probably some debug setting you can use
  	Han Shot First  	i don't like that the option was removed from preferences > graphics either
  	Tillie Ariantho  	Jonathan: didnt find any.
  	Moy  	The disabling of attached lights has been there for years though
  	Oz Linden  	yes, I know... I was just confusing them in my cluttered memory
  	draconis.neurocam 	i dont like that the feature to debug sculpt image dimensions got axed in the conversion to 2.x i would have thought it would be something nice to have
  	Zi Ree  	I see it, but I am on Firestorm. Not sure if V2 has it, too.
07:46 	Moy  	Firestorm is based on an old version of 2.x from last year
  	Oz Linden  	don't know what that was, draconis
  	Moy  	I think it's 2.3, or 2.4
  	Zi Ree  	2.5.1
  	draconis.neurocam 	i made a jira lemme find it
07:47 	Zi Ree  	Err, 2..5.2 even
  	  	2.5.1 is our own version number ;)
  	draconis.neurocam 	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25489
  	Office Orb  	VWR-25489 Sculpt dimension meta-data view missing from 2.x, was possible to see in 1.23
07:49 	draconis.neurocam 	its one of a very small set of base features that i actually miss from older viewers
  	Oz Linden  	might that be covered by Develop->Render Metadata->Texture Area ?
07:50 	  	(tried turning that on here... remarkably cluttered display)
  	Moy  	That's surface area though, not the sculpt image dimentions
  	draconis.neurocam 	doesnt appear to be, i get different values than expected
07:51 	Oz Linden  	if you can get an implementation that would go in that menu, adding it would probably not be controversial
  	draconis.neurocam 	it wouldnt be me writing it from scratch though, it would probably just be a copy paste job from older source, which is licensed differently
07:52 	Oz Linden  	if it was in 1.23 or Snowglobe, we can use it
  	draconis.neurocam 	interesting
  	Jonathan  	Draconis, will you take on that project?
  	draconis.neurocam 	it was in both
07:53 	  	jonathan ill look into it, its something that really bugs me, so i have a good amount of drive to do it
  	Oz Linden  	Classic open source motivation :-)
07:54 	Wolfpup  	ya just like me and the date stamping of chat logs :p
  	Oz Linden  	exactly
  	  	(and which I very much appreciate, incidentally)
07:55 	Wolfpup  	oz so far the work on chop-609 dose not seem to be helping OS build times at least for me
  	Tillie Ariantho  	I'd totally like a local light thats attached to the HUD and illuminates surroundings for the owner only. ^^
07:56 	Moy  	Make a script that has an object follow your camera
  	Zi Ree  	Increase your gamma value ;)
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	well, some of that is just preparation for steps that should help, I guess? Though CHOP-609 is directed at LL's build times, I guess.
  	Kitteh Scientist  	if i write a list of things in 1.23 or Snowglobe that would be usefull in v2. will you read the list?
07:57 	Oz Linden  	I read everything anyone sends me
  	Kitteh Scientist  	:)
  	Wolfpup  	Boroondas those should also affect those working on wnidows in an OS evvironment
  	Oz Linden  	our build times for Windows have gotten a lot better
07:58 	  	cut by around half
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	Well, but the bottle neck on your machine might be a different than on LL's machines. Depends on the hardware setup and whatnot.
  	Jonathan  	is chop-609 in v-d yet?
  	Oz Linden  	but I don't know how much of that is the software changes and how much is upgrading our build servers
  	Wolfpup  	Oz mine are still @ 2.25hrs for full build and that was after my pull friday night from viewer-development
  	Oz Linden  	integrated this morning Jonathan
  	Zi Ree  	More RAM and more cores help most.
07:59 	Wolfpup  	some of chop-609 was in friday night
  	Ardy Lay  	SSD doesn't hurt either but may not help much. I didn't compare.
  	Zi Ree  	Oz, from what you said before: Can we as TPV developers take things from 1.23 and snowglobe for our LGPL viewers?
  	Oz Linden  	Tillie ... couldn't you accomplish much the same thing by just using personal windlight settings?
08:00 	Office Orb  	Your timer has expired!
  	Zi Ree  	SSD is not so important when you have lots of RAM.
  	Oz Linden  	No, Zi, you can't
  	Zi Ree  	Ok.
  	Wolfpup  	Zi im on a 32-bit system and maxed out @ 4GB
  	Zi Ree  	Wolf :(
  	Ardy Lay  	Yeah, I have 12GB of RAM and disabled virtual memory.
  	Oz Linden  	unless you get them moved to the current viewer code base, in which case you can
  	Tillie Ariantho  	Oz: thats the thing. I USE personal windlight settings, but the darn local lights kill everything in the 2.x versions.
  	Zi Ree  	nods. "Ok, got it, Oz. Thanks!"
08:01 	Oz Linden  	Ah....
  	Tillie Ariantho  	A single reddish light somewhere and everything is tinted in red, photos unusable.
  	Oz Linden  	well, I don't think that an option to turn them off would be controversial, so if someone builds it we can probably integrate it
08:02 	Tillie Ariantho  	And at shows and events I cant have a 'clean light environment' as I can have back in my private studio. ^^
  	Ardy Lay  	<key>RenderLocalLights</key>
  	Oz Linden  	If Firestorm already has it, then we can probably get that integrated....
  	Ardy Lay  	DEbugSetting seems to be there.
08:03 	  	It deos stuff too.
  	Tillie Ariantho  	In phoenix it's RenderLightingDetail 0/1
  	  	Ardy: didnt see it in the last dev build.
08:04 	Ardy Lay  	Uhm... I am using mesh-development at the moment.
  	Tillie Ariantho  	I'm pretty sure its not part of 2.6.x
  	Moy  	Renderlocallights does not appear for me in a four day old version of 2.6
  	Tillie Ariantho  	yah. :-/
  	Oz Linden  	no, it's not in my build either
08:05 	  	but the good news is that the mesh branch is due to merge (again) this week
  	Ardy Lay  	I also find it in viewer-development
  	Oz Linden  	the mesh features won't be enabled yet, but the other rendering changes will be
08:06 	Ardy Lay  	I am looking in settings.xml
  	Oz Linden  	odd that it doesn't show in the menu....
  	Ardy Lay  	Doesn't show in DebugSettings?
08:07 	Moy  	How old is your viewerdevelopment Ardy?
  	Zi Ree  	Maybe it's commented out?
  	Oz Linden  	I need to wrap up, folks.... I'll look for that difference, Tillie; put something on the agenda for the Viewer Evolution UG this week.
  	Moy  	It's not in my settings.xml file at all
  	Ardy Lay  	Uhmm... I think I pulled Saturday
  	Wolfpup  	Oz one thing though befor the mesh featurs can be active there will need to be a project to creat a fully OS convexdecompsition lib
  	Tillie Ariantho  	:)
08:08 	Oz Linden  	well, we're not going to wait for that Wolfpup
  	  	nor do it
  	  	the only thing that won't work without it is uploading meshes, and even then you can do it by building the physics externally and using the advanced upload dialog
  	Jonathan  	A TPV developer has come up with a local work-around for that, too
08:09 	Oz Linden  	talk to Kirstenlee
  	  	gotta go all... thanks for coming
  	Office Orb  	End transcription