Mesh/Archive/2012-08-13

==Agenda==
# Will there be any way to offset and resize the collision volumes with a rigged mesh? Tiberious Neruda
# Is there any news to report on adding additional bones? https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-29349 Geenz Spad
==Meeting Notes==
==Attendees List==
*Al Blindside (al.blindside)
*Asha (ashasekayi.ra)
*beanster Potato (beanster.potato)
*Drongle McMahon (drongle.mcmahon)
*Geenz Spad (geenz.spad)
*Gramma Fiddlesticks (gramma.fiddlesticks)
*Hoz Linden (hoz.linden)
*inconnu (ynysmore) (inconnu.(ynysmore))
*JIRA-helper (jira-helper)
*Mikki Miles (mikki.miles)
*Motor Loon (motor.loon)
*Nal (nalates.urriah)
*Neil Ceawlin (neil.ceawlin)
*Nyx Linden (nyx.linden)
*Rusalka Writer (rusalka.writer)
*Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi)
*Tiberious Neruda (tiberious.neruda)
*Bazz Fazz (vir.linden)
*Kazumi (wickedwanda.blackheart)
*Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)
==Transcript for Monday August 13, 2012==
[12:03]	Nyx Linden 	greetings all!
[12:03]	Gramma Fiddlesticks 	.
[12:03]	Rusalka Writer 	Only tiny amounts of broken content.
[12:03]	Rusalka Writer 	Aloha!
[12:03]	Motor Loon 	ey Nyx
[12:03]	Tiberious Neruda 	...do I sense a newbie Linden?
[12:03]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Hello Nyx.
[12:03]	Al Blindside 	Hey hey Nyx
[12:03]	Hoz Linden 	Hi, all
[12:03]	Rusalka Writer 	We'll be gentle.
[12:03]	Kazumi (wickedwanda.blackheart) 	Hi Hoz
[12:03]	Rusalka Writer 	No we won't.
[12:04]	Nyx Linden 	agenda is here, we're light on topics, so feel free to add more: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group
[12:04]	Tiberious Neruda 	...you're in with the sharks now... :>3
[12:04]	Hoz Linden 	I'd be disappointed if I got special consideration.
[12:04]	Tiberious Neruda 	err >:3
[12:04]	Al Blindside 	Lovely to see Lindens here as ever - you guys get a bad press for not *caring* - but hells - here you be
[12:04]	Rusalka Writer 	It's been months since there was actual violence.
[12:04]	Al Blindside 	lordy
[12:04]	Rusalka Writer 	Hoz must be the pony guy.
[12:05]	Nyx Linden 	shall we get started?
[12:05]	Motor Loon 	yeah lets rock
[12:06]	Tiberious Neruda 	so, Hoz... what exactly do you do?
[12:06]	Al Blindside 	woot
[12:06]	Nyx Linden 	first topic: "Will there be any way to offset and resize the collision volumes with a rigged mesh? Tiberious Neruda"
[12:06]	inconnu (ynysmore) 	is this a private meeting?
[12:06]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	sure
[12:06]	Tiberious Neruda 	okay... bit of background to this question
[12:06]	Nyx Linden 	hello inconnu - this is a public usergroup, I'll send you a link to the agenda, feel free to stick around
[12:06]	Tiberious Neruda 	whenever you use a mesh with offset joints, the collision skeleton remains unchanged
[12:07]	Tiberious Neruda 	and since you need to use the 'default shape' for accurate offsetting, you end up with collision bones either too small or too large, depending on the avatar size
[12:07]	Tiberious Neruda 	this in turn affects how the camea focuses on an avatar
[12:09]	Tiberious Neruda 	and in extreme cases, can even cause more strangeness like focusing on something behind a mesh, seeming to aim'through' it
[12:09]	Rusalka Writer 	Focusing on mesh has been a problem anyway.
[12:09]	Rusalka Writer 	The camera seems to reflect off it to somewhere else.
[12:09]	Tiberious Neruda 	Rusalka, that has to do with those collision skeleton volumes
[12:09]	Rusalka Writer 	Ah.
[12:10]	Rusalka Writer 	Good question, then. It gets frustrating.
[12:10]	Tiberious Neruda 	apparently, the client seems to assume some basic things about where the collision volumes are, which is fine if you're not using a rigged mesh with offsets, but throws things out of whack when you are
[12:11]	Nyx Linden 	definitely a solid use case for why allowing the modification of physics skeleton to match your uploaded joints would be useful, is there a JIRA around this?
[12:12]	Tiberious Neruda 	not one that I've created
[12:12]	Rusalka Writer 	Here I was thinking of it as my "why is my camera in a tree again?" problem.
[12:13]	Al Blindside 	Given that Blender is an open source code - would it be too crazy to see a drop down mesh menu and a corresponding off world version of Blender which has been stripped of the *impossible*?
[12:14]	Rusalka Writer 	Yep. Too crazy.
[12:14]	Rusalka Writer 	; )
[12:14]	Al Blindside 	lol
[12:15]	Nyx Linden 	It would definitely be good to see a feature request for this in JIRA, with documentation on why its important. We don't have cycles for it immediately, but I can see where this could be causing some issues
[12:15]	Rusalka Writer 	Tiberious has functional problems. I just have annoyance.
[12:16]	Tiberious Neruda 	I'll work with someone if they want to make a jira on it, but I'm not putting it up myself
[12:17]	Motor Loon 	such a stubborn little fellow that Tib...
[12:17]	Al Blindside 	Annoyance is one thing - but practicalities are another methinks?
[12:17]	Nyx Linden 	any other topics for this week? the floor is open :)
[12:17]	Tiberious Neruda 	you can't blame me, though, can you?
[12:18]	Rusalka Writer 	I'll do some experimentation with mesh upload on this new Mac.
[12:18]	Rusalka Writer 	When RL permits.
[12:18]	Rusalka Writer 	*crickets*
[12:18]	Rusalka Writer 	Anybody want to ask for tail bones this week?
[12:18]	Tiberious Neruda 	LOL!
[12:19]	Rusalka Writer 	How are those coming along?
[12:19]	Al Blindside 	RL is just a cumbersome relic for signing in... lol
[12:19]	Neil Ceawlin 	sigh
[12:19]	Motor Loon 	I think they're around the same stage as the nose bones
[12:19]	Rusalka Writer 	More comfortable couches in RL.
[12:19]	Nyx Linden 	/me files a jira for obtaining a more comfortable couch
[12:19]	Rusalka Writer 	Lol!
[12:20]	Rusalka Writer 	Well-played. I may not get a pony, but...
[12:20]	Rusalka Writer 	Or pony butt.
[12:20]	Gramma Fiddlesticks 	/me makes note to self: Self, build Nyx & Rusalka a more comfortable couch
[12:20]	Motor Loon 	I'm afraid I seem to have very little to whine about this week
[12:20]	Rusalka Writer 	How about the beta area? It's down to two sims now?
[12:21]	Nyx Linden 	whoo! guess we've fixed all the important bits! *schedules vacation*
[12:21]	Motor Loon 	yep! ¬∞Õú¬∞
[12:21]	Rusalka Writer 	Mesh is finished!
[12:21]	Tiberious Neruda 	oh, I douby mesh is FINISHED...
[12:21]	Tiberious Neruda 	...but there's nothing outrageously broken either
[12:21]	Motor Loon 	well, I'd ask again about the custom pivots... but... yeah... been there done that
[12:21]	Rusalka Writer 	How has it come to this...
[12:21]	Tiberious Neruda 	yeah...
[12:22]	Al Blindside 	Given that beautiful in world tools like Mesh Studio exist - would it not be worth a meeting that basic mesh tools from primsw be incorporated into a future viewer?
[12:22]	Rusalka Writer 	Any changes coming to impact based on script addition?
[12:22]	Motor Loon 	changes?!
[12:23]	Rusalka Writer 	Lessening impact numbers, I was thinking.
[12:23]	Tiberious Neruda 	they did already, it hink
[12:23]	Rusalka Writer 	Oh, good, Drongle.
[12:23]	Motor Loon 	we just got that with pathfinding
[12:23]	Tiberious Neruda 	yeah
[12:23]	Nyx Linden 	I believe the pathfinding project had some land impact changes when it rolled out
[12:23]	Rusalka Writer 	Drongle, we're out of topics. We can start with your hair.
[12:23]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	All my play right now is with Pathfinding and Navmesh... figuring it out and deciding what is or isn't working. ...and waiting on the Mesh Deformer...
[12:23]	Gramma Fiddlesticks 	PF changes just rolled out affected scipts with mesh.
[12:23]	Drongle McMahon 	:-)
[12:23]	Rusalka Writer 	Oh, good, you finished rezzing. Never mind.
[12:24]	Tiberious Neruda 	see, I'm curious why people aren't taking advantage of the 'RedPoly Method'
[12:24]	Al Blindside 	??
[12:24]	Rusalka Writer 	Ah, topics.
[12:24]	Motor Loon 	because its not supported?
[12:24]	Geenz Spad 	likely the amount of work involved to use it
[12:24]	Rusalka Writer 	How is the deformer?
[12:24]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	It doesn't work with breasts...
[12:24]	Geenz Spad 	and that
[12:24]	Tiberious Neruda 	yeah, it might be a pain in the butt to paint another set of weights, but it's already here
[12:24]	Geenz Spad 	(also, saddle bags too)
[12:24]	Tiberious Neruda 	it ain't perfect
[12:25]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	I DO NOT have saddle bags... :p
[12:25]	Gramma Fiddlesticks 	/me has both of those. *grin
[12:25]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	RedPoly's method works in the viewer however it is complex to make the object. So, people are waiting on a wysiwig way to do it basically.
[12:25]	Tiberious Neruda 	but it seems to be working better than what we've seen so far of the deformer
[12:26]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	I am hoping the next version of the deformer is better.
[12:26]	beanster Potato 	maybe in 2015
[12:26]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Is Qarl working on a next version?
[12:26]	Al Blindside 	I don't undertand why mesh tools *have* to be off world? Power yes but surely some basics in world like the prim menu?
[12:26]	Motor Loon 	last I heard Karl was waiting for some serverside stuff
[12:27]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Supposedly... with no Metareality podcasts for the last 2 weeks it is hard to know.
[12:27]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Yes, I was wondering if he was still in limbo.
[12:27]	Nyx Linden 	mesh objects are set up to be relatively static - aside from retexturing, resizing, etc there are not mechanisms to re-write the assets
[12:27]	Motor Loon 	yeah Nal... I've gone into withdrawals
[12:28]	Tiberious Neruda 	maybe the uploader could support the groups needed for those non-collision-volume sliders?
[12:28]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	You can use Meshstudio if you want an inworld solution for mesh building.
[12:28]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	I think Nyx is saying that in-word mesh editing would be a really BIG add to SL, lots of code and stuff... so not going to happen anytime soon
[12:28]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	There may be some other products as well at this point.
[12:28]	Motor Loon 	or at all
[12:28]	Al Blindside 	Nyx - if a clever scripter can join mesh in world - whu can't ll do same?
[12:28]	Rusalka Writer 	It can be priority #2,857.
[12:29]	Motor Loon 	what are you talking about Al ?
[12:29]	Nyx Linden 	define "join" :)
[12:29]	Al Blindside 	A mesh grouping
[12:29]	Nyx Linden 	linking should work fine with meshes
[12:29]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Why should they put cycles into doing that when a clever scripter has already done it?
[12:30]	Rusalka Writer 	Settling in for the remainder of the hour...
[12:30]	Motor Loon 	err
[12:31]	Al Blindside 	Because the world is made/ or was made bt residents in world and bot some fancy ass 'designer' with a 1000$US program
[12:31]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	O.o
[12:31]	Tiberious Neruda 	I do notice that sometimes there's a bug with viewing people with a rigged mesh....
[12:31]	Tiberious Neruda 	it acts as if the mesh loads first, and then their shape
[12:31]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Except that you don't need a 1,000 US program to make mesh assets.
[12:32]	Rusalka Writer 	Free program and will of lion!
[12:32]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	lol
[12:32]	Tiberious Neruda 	this results in stretched meshes until you do a deruth
[12:32]	Al Blindside 	Yes - Blender could be modified is my point
[12:32]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	And inworld programs like Meshstudio. So, that excuse is pretty much dead.
[12:32]	Motor Loon 	Blender works fine... why do you need it modified?
[12:33]	Rusalka Writer 	It sounds like asking why we don't just add French to English to pick up a bunch of new and useful words.
[12:33]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Hmm...you actually want LL to try to integrate Blender into the viewer? Seriously?
[12:33]	Motor Loon 	god no thanks
[12:33]	Al Blindside 	Linden Lans used to say "Made By Residents" ---- that meant inworld
[12:33]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	lol
[12:33]	Nyx Linden 	any other topics for this week or should we wrap up early?
[12:33]	Drongle McMahon 	That gives me a sense of deja vu!
[12:34]	Tiberious Neruda 	Nyx: maybe finding some way to address the bug I mentioned?
[12:34]	Al Blindside 	Yes - Blender is open code
[12:34]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Classic...lol
[12:34]	Rusalka Writer 	Dang. I was relaxing. Having a beverage.
[12:34]	Motor Loon 	You're welcome to make a new viewer with Blender built in Al... have fun with that ¬∞Õú¬∞
[12:34]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	lol
[12:35]	Tiberious Neruda 	the one where meshes with offset joints loads before the shape wearing it
[12:35]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Or Al could write a proposal and add it to the JIRA...
[12:35]	Al Blindside 	I have to push buttons where I see them
[12:35]	Nyx Linden 	I don't suppose there is a JIRA for that bug?
[12:35]	Rusalka Writer 	Jira away, Al.
[12:35]	Tiberious Neruda 	not sure. It's probably something that others have seen too
[12:35]	Al Blindside 	This is like a Jira -- they're here so I say my mind
[12:36]	Nyx Linden 	screenshots and log files would be greatly appreciated, if it can be reproduced
[12:36]	Geenz Spad 	I do have one thing to bring up! (if it's not too late, and given that there isn't much on the agenda today)
[12:36]	Rusalka Writer 	What happens in meeting stays in meeting.
[12:36]	Nyx Linden 	floor's open Geenz
[12:36]	Motor Loon 	err.. theres nothing on the agenda today Geenz
[12:36]	Al Blindside 	As long as it's not like Fight Club lol
[12:37]	Rusalka Writer 	Heh heh heh.
[12:37]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	They've repeatedly stated that you need to make feature requests in JIRA form. Mentioning it here isn't going to get it noticed.
[12:37]	Rusalka Writer 	Absolutely.
[12:37]	Geenz Spad 	I forwarded this one on to Nyx after the CCIUG meeting we had that discussed it: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-29349
[12:37]	JIRA-helper 	[#VWR-29349] Additional bones for rigging - Second Life Bug Tracker
[12:37]	Geenz Spad 	has there been any progress on this?
[12:38]	Rusalka Writer 	There we are.
[12:38]	Al Blindside 	So no point to being here? Really?
[12:38]	Motor Loon 	ah nosebones atain
[12:38]	Motor Loon 	again
[12:38]	Nyx Linden 	Nothing new to report just yet, though I do appreciate the write-up, its good to have a central list of the additional bones being asked for.
[12:38]	Rusalka Writer 	We meet here to discuss problems, to see if anyone has experienced the same thing, if anyone has a workaround, and determine what needs to become a Jira.
[12:39]	Mikki Miles 	T-bone
[12:39]	Rusalka Writer 	The Jira system is the formal statement of a problem to LL and request for amendment.
[12:39]	Geenz Spad 	alrighty then, and I imagine you wouldn't complain if people posted their feedback there either would you Nyx? :P
[12:39]	Motor Loon 	Gonna be so much fun in Second Life‚Ñ¢ with we can all have 3 legs and 6 arms along with our 25 bone tails
[12:39]	Tiberious Neruda 	my only concern is that these need to be standardized
[12:39]	Rusalka Writer 	Centipedes...
[12:40]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	/me snorts. "25 bone tails".
[12:40]	Kazumi (wickedwanda.blackheart) 	no wing bones on that jira..poor old angels and demons
[12:40]	Nyx Linden 	I'll add myself as a watcher to that issue, gathering comments would be appreciated as long as they add detail and stay on track
[12:40]	Al Blindside 	Jira is just a formalised opinion or suggestion - no need to ignore unformalised opinions I think? Anyways - i gotta scoot
[12:40]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	25 bone tails... now what can Xcite! think up to do with that?
[12:40]	Geenz Spad 	well, a few suggestions to everyone here regarding this one:
[12:40]	Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi)	Stay on track and JIRA? Good grief, you're asking for a lot. :P
[12:40]	Rusalka Writer 	Right. No centipedes.
[12:40]	Geenz Spad 	I imagine a bone structure would be helpful
[12:41]	Tiberious Neruda 	nothing. They're not attachments, so they can't do anything with 'em >:3
[12:41]	Tiberious Neruda 	but that brings up an interesting question...
[12:41]	Tiberious Neruda 	do you really think we'd need another 60-70 attachment points to go along with those bones?
[12:41]	Geenz Spad 	since as it stands, saying "I want a riggable tail!" doesn't say much about how those bones should be structured (I.e., will 3 bones suffice? 4? 5? etc.)
[12:42]	Tiberious Neruda 	Geenz, I'd say no more than about 8 for the tail
[12:42]	Nyx Linden 	indeed, an explicit list & diagram would be most helpful
[12:42]	Rusalka Writer 	Explicit. Right, those too.
[12:43]	Motor Loon 	so what if you have two tails?
[12:43]	Nyx Linden 	with that I think we're pretty much wrapped up this week. See everyone next week!
[12:43]	Motor Loon 	are we going to discriminate against oddlings with two tails then?
[12:43]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Thx Lindens
[12:43]	Rusalka Writer 	Sigh.
[12:43]	Gramma Fiddlesticks 	Thanks Lindens.
[12:43]	Bazz Fazz (vir.linden) 	Bye all!
[12:43]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	See you next week, Nyx!
[12:43]	Rusalka Writer 	Aloha, all. Try to have more problems this week.
[12:43]	Gramma Fiddlesticks 	bye bye
[12:44]	Tiberious Neruda 	of course...
[12:44]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	See you Vir!
[12:44]	Drongle McMahon 	Bye
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