Open Source Meeting/2007-10-11

Open Source Meeting on 2007-10-10
== Agenda ==
* solution/project files in SVN not up to date (John Hurliman, "MSVC 2005")
* move artwork to SVN? svn:externals ( http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.1/ch07s04.html )
* [VWR-744] : Land owners/renters need to be able to move prims that overlap over their land borders, even if the center of the prim is on the other piece of land.
* [VWR-1017] : New Feature Request: Option to "Mute Visibility" on objects to alleviate problems with 16sqm parcels, ad-farms and probably a thousand other eye sores.
* [VWR-1449] : 3 New Avatar Layers - 2nd Tattoo layers between existing skin/tattoo layer and clothing layer
== General Questions ==
* feedback from the LL brownbag about: Land Bots, whether to take measures to stop them.
** What is LL's position on client automation?
*** It is noted at Benjamin's office hours that Robin Linden's office is the intake for further bot policy questions (unless Robin can sneak in for a moment for this office hour). 
* SL UI enhancement: fully XML defined, scriptable? (see WOW: XML files + resources, almost fully scriptable with LUA)
** This have been discussed on SLDev a few times.
* SL dev guide / style guide (or at least some rules)
** See: Coding standard (maybe move that wiki page to "Style Guide")
* flexi sculpties (maybe more a topic for Qarl Linden?)
** Join the Sculptie Dev group. Qarl usually has office hours on Fridays.
== Transcript ==
* [14:01] Gigs Taggart: I've seen a G5 tower do that
* [14:01] Zha Ewry: Supects, usual.
* [14:01] Rob Linden: Hi folks
* [14:01] Tillie Ariantho: Hello Rob. :)
* [14:01] Gigs Taggart: crash and then go into jet engine mode
* [14:01] Squirrel Wood: So what's todays agenda?
* [14:01] Soft Linden: 
* [14:02] Tillie Ariantho: Some things got nullified, so the list is rather short.
* [14:02] Soft Linden: The one thing on there I really hoped we'd have data on was the land bot question. But the last brown bag was taken over by quarterly review topics. We should be able to do that this coming Tuesday.
* [14:03] Rob Linden: well, let's get started
* [14:03] Rob Linden: MSVC 2005
* [14:03] Rob Linden: I'm not sure what the latest status is on that.
* [14:03] Tillie Ariantho: Yes, that was project files to old in SVN, newer in the download packages.
* [14:03] Dale Glass: seems to work well for building the viewer. I use it here, seems to work OK
* [14:04] Rob Linden: well, actually, they're the same old files in both
* [14:04] Dale Glass: I got reports of my viewer being faster than the standard one, maybe it optimizes better
* [14:04] Soft Linden: It's still the case that nobody internally is using VS2005 (that I know of!) who isn't on the havok4 branch. Is there an open source developer with commit access who'd want to own those until we upgrade internally, post-Havok4?
* [14:04] Gigs Taggart: Dale: confirmation bias? :)
* [14:04] Barney Boomslang: dale: or it's just wishful thinking of the users ;)
* [14:04] Dale Glass: then I got a few reports of it being slower too. It's funny
* [14:04] Rob Linden: John thought the project files were different, but found out otherwise on closer inspection
* [14:05] Barney Boomslang: still chuckles about the ppl claiming that the linux client is faster than the windows and mac client - even though it has to use openjpg, which just is a bit on the slow side
* [14:05] Gigs Taggart: Barney, it doesn't have to use openjpeg.
* [14:05] Squirrel Wood: Well, the windows client has to cope with Windows ;)
* [14:05] Tillie Ariantho: I can only compile on Mac. There the config files could need a hand, too. for xcode... not much, just 2 or 3 lines to get updated.
* [14:05] Dale Glass: also openjpeg only matters while decoding textures
* [14:06] Squirrel Wood: I have just recently counted the number of different textures at the furnation pony club... 2250+ textures... way more than any 3d engine should have to handle
* [14:07] Tillie Ariantho: So if it works for Dale it seems ok then?
* [14:07] Squirrel Wood: Hellu Wyn
* [14:07] Rob Linden: looks like Soft's call for volunteers has gone unanswered
* [14:07] Gigs Taggart: What call?
* [14:07] Gigs Taggart: oh
* [14:07] Gigs Taggart: the digest thing
* [14:07] Wyn Galbraith: wonders if she should jump on that one.
* [14:07] Tillie Ariantho: For someone updating the project files.
* [14:07] Tillie Ariantho: for windows
* [14:07] Squirrel Wood: Is there an open source developer with commit access who'd want to own those until we upgrade internally, post-Havok4?
* [14:08] Dale Glass: I prefer to avoid Windows if possible :-)
* [14:08] Soft Linden: I was wondering if anyone with svn commit access wanted to take over ownership of the VS 2005 project files until we're on vs2005 internally
* [14:08] Soft Linden: (Or if anyone was willing to do that who'd like to have svn commit access)
* [14:08] Rob Linden: which, hopefully, shouldn't be long now
* [14:08] Gigs Taggart: last used VS in 1997
* [14:08] Soft Linden: Right. That upgrade happens after havok4 goes live.
* [14:08] Dale Glass: who has commit acess btw? Didn't know people had it
* [14:09] Rob Linden: a couple of folks, and I'm willing to give it to others who have signed contrib agreements and a good patch record
* [14:10] Rob Linden: we have an unused "sandbox" directory right now
* [14:10] Dale Glass: Ok, certainly not me then :-) Suppose Nicholaz must be on the list? He mentioned having trouble getting patches in, that should help
* [14:10] Wyn Galbraith: Phews, not me either. :)
* [14:10] Rob Linden: I specifically approached Nicholaz about it. he's not interested
* [14:10] Tillie Ariantho: Cant remember which compiler he is using, though.
* [14:11] Squirrel Wood: Yep. Nicholaz may be a good choice there :)
* [14:11] Saijanai Kuhn: only has a PowerPC mac for development
* [14:11] Dale Glass: curious
* [14:11] Rob Linden: he likes publishing zipfiles
* [14:11] Soft Linden: Who's been maintaining the VS2005 patches on the JIRA?
* [14:11] Rob Linden: shrugs
* [14:11] Dzonatas Sol: I use the SConstruct with VS2005, so I don't even touch the project files.
* [14:12] Tillie Ariantho: hm, are they needed at all?
* [14:12] Dale Glass: they're needed for VS2005 of course
* [14:12] Gigs Taggart: I have SVN commit, but I don't use it.
* [14:12] Dale Glass: it's what I use to build the windows version
* [14:13] Gigs Taggart: I'm not really sure how it fits into my process yet :)
* [14:13] Dzonatas Sol: My vote is to compile from SConstruct and do away with all project files, but others like to use project files
* [14:13] Soft Linden: Feep Larsson is the one who's been doing it on https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1151
* [14:13] Dzonatas Sol: Dale, have you tried the SContruct version I made?
* [14:13] Gigs Taggart: Dale: note that the SVN isn't the real one.
* [14:13] Dale Glass: Dzonatas, no, haven't tried that, but that sounds like a good idea :-) Got a link?
* [14:14] Dale Glass: I'll have to try that when I get free time, kinda busy right now
* [14:14] Rob Linden: hmm....ok, well, this crowd doesn't seem to mind the current state of the VS2005 files, so maybe we should move on
* [14:14] Tillie Ariantho: Yes.
* [14:14] Saijanai Kuhn: SConstruct works on a Mac with xCode?
* [14:14] Barney Boomslang: well, part of the crowd are macheads, maybe that's the reasdon? ;)
* [14:15] Saijanai Kuhn: is mac user
* [14:15] Dzonatas Sol: It's the Sandbox version... (I'll get more details later)
* [14:15] Tillie Ariantho: Saijanai: Dont know, I use the project file for xcode.
* [14:15] Rob Linden: next up is the viewer artwork
* [14:15] Gigs Taggart: I dont' like binaries in SVN
* [14:15] Dzonatas Sol: Saijani, Xcode uses gcc backend, so it works if you have python
* [14:15] Tillie Ariantho: Yes. I am a bit shaken about that many resources inside a version control. it slows down updates, checkouts ...
* [14:15] Barney Boomslang: yup - binaries in svn can be a big pain in the bum
* [14:16] Soft Linden: Why's that?
* [14:16] Dale Glass: maybe a rsync server for artwork?
* [14:16] Soft Linden: Other than merges
* [14:16] Barney Boomslang: how have you set up the repository? depending on the format it might be a good idea to keep it outside
* [14:16] Dale Glass: publish something like rsync://artwork.secondlife.com/current/ and let people sync with that
* [14:16] Gigs Taggart: rsync is cool
* [14:17] Barney Boomslang: and yes, merges are one of the things, especially if those binaries are "ascii-lookalikes" where svn sometimes tries to be "smart" and does a file merge ... eww ...
* [14:17] Rob Linden: yeah, I like having just source code in the repository. Makes it much quicker for me to push new versions
* [14:17] Tillie Ariantho: true
* [14:17] Dale Glass: ok, agree that binaries in SVN are bad then
* [14:17] Poppy Linden: i haven't had any bad experiences with binaries in svn, presonally
* [14:18] Tillie Ariantho: hm. if it is put into a separate project in svn? so you dont need to sync, if you are happy with the resources you currently have.
* [14:18] Dzonatas Sol: If you go with SVN, then the svn:externals property can be set to help ease copies
* [14:19] Rob Linden: maybe not a fully separate project, but separate part of the tree would be fine
* [14:19] Tillie Ariantho: yes
* [14:19] Barney Boomslang: the question is - what would we gain with binaries in a svn repository?
* [14:19] Tillie Ariantho: I am no svn expert so others have to think about the details. .)
* [14:19] Poppy Linden: versioned binaries
* [14:19] Rob Linden: I echo Barney's question
* [14:19] Soft Linden: binaries in the tree means one less maual step when updating, and not having to have a separate submission pipeline for new icons, etc.
* [14:19] Barney Boomslang: well, sure, versioned binaries. you can put everything in there - why not binary libraries, too, so we have versionied libraries? ;)
* [14:19] Rob Linden: (the files would still need to be copied into place manually)
* [14:20] Barney Boomslang: not everything _needs_ to be versioned on the same level as sourcecode
* [14:20] Rob Linden: Barney, we can't do that with many of our libraries
* [14:20] Rob Linden: (legally)
* [14:20] Tillie Ariantho: But sometimes it would be better. I have seen resources that got lost. .P
* [14:20] Poppy Linden: barney, but if there's no activity on it, it doens't eat bandwidth / take up time for update
* [14:20] Barney Boomslang: for some things the good old "have a variant for each major release" might still be best
* [14:20] Barney Boomslang: tillie: yeah, but they were found again ;)
* [14:20] Dzonatas Sol: They only need to be in the same repository if we need to keep the revision history for merges
* [14:21] Dale Glass: I'm thinking rsync is probably easier. Just drop the contents of the latest .zip into a directory
* [14:21] Poppy Linden: i'm not really the person to speak about binary files in version control, but I can say the fact that we do that has helped me solve at least one issue
* [14:21] Michelle2 Zenovka: Rsync deltas are looking around 12-14Mb
* [14:22] Dale Glass: what deltas?
* [14:23] Michelle2 Zenovka: going between abatary viewer releases, or have i comein at the wrong point
* [14:23] Poppy Linden: (sorry i'm late btw, was hacking linux launcher and broke ability to start SL :P)
* [14:23] Barney Boomslang: poppy>: if you break it, you have to keep the pieces ;)
* [14:23] Rob Linden: let me ask this question another way. of all of the things you'd like Linden Lab to do, is this really important?
* [14:23] Dale Glass: we're talking about artwork here, it rarely changes between releases. Mostly stuff gets added ocasionally
* [14:24] Rob Linden: (because making artwork publishes to SVN work is a non-zero amount of work)
* [14:24] Michelle2 Zenovka: sorry, the deltas on that are indeed tiny
* [14:24] Tillie Ariantho: Not for me, but maybe for the developers that submit patches? :) I personally am happy with a zip, too.
* [14:24] Rob Linden: it actually is cumulative
* [14:24] Dale Glass: which is why I'm favouring the rsync option. Just got to setup a rsync server (easy), then keep the latest version of the files there
* [14:24] Rob Linden: (meaning each publish of the source will take longer)
* [14:25] Michelle2 Zenovka: I am trying that now with rsync
* [14:25] Poppy Linden: I missed the start of this discussion - are we talking getting art assets as a sep. proj in pub SVN?
* [14:25] Dzonatas Sol: I see no problem with the zip as-is. It is not a compile-time dependency.
* [14:25] Rob Linden: Dale: we're not setting up an rsync server
* [14:25] Barney Boomslang: call me unbiased on this, since most of the time I stick with the tarballs anyway. so if it is additiona,l work for you, I'd say scratch it.
* [14:25] Dale Glass: Ah, problems with that?
* [14:25] Tillie Ariantho: Rob: yes, not adding it to the svn then, if it is a pain in the ass.
* [14:26] Dale Glass: Thought that with the recent talk on autoupdating rsync might get used for viewer updates anyway
* [14:26] Barney Boomslang: dale: I bet it's a "somebody has to do it" problem
* [14:26] Rob Linden: Dale: all of our open source stuff is hosted by third parties, and that would be a new managed service
* [14:26] Dale Glass: ahh
* [14:26] Tillie Ariantho: oh okay.
* [14:26] Rob Linden: Barney: exactly
* [14:27] Tillie Ariantho: cross it out then, resources stick with zip then. .)
* [14:27] Rob Linden: I won't entirely discount the notion of putting it somewhere in svn/version control someday, but we'll probably lump it in with some other project
* [14:28] Tillie Ariantho: Better let a Linden do some fixing instead of having him checking in resources and maintaining an additional service.... .)
* [14:28] Soft Linden: Or at the very least, this is a conversation to go back on-list.
* [14:28] Rob Linden: well, I'd actaully rather see this one go to jira
* [14:28] Tillie Ariantho: Okay.
* [14:29] Rob Linden: at any rate, we've probably talked this one out
* [14:29] Tillie Ariantho: yes.
* [14:29] Dzonatas Sol: Rob, I think the only depency on compile-time for the artwork exists ony internally, as that part is not being publish (icons, for example).
* [14:29] Rob Linden: now that we're midway, probably a good time to call for volunteers for next week's agenda
* [14:30] Rob Linden: any volunteers?
* [14:30] Gigs Taggart: I'll do next week.
* [14:30] Rob Linden: sold to the first bidder
* [14:31] Rob Linden: :)
* [14:31] Rob Linden: thanks Gigs (again)
* [14:31] Gigs Taggart: but you have to tell me what those purple spinny things are supposed to be :)
* [14:31] Rob Linden: if I knew I'd tell you
* [14:31] Gigs Taggart: heh
* [14:31] Rob Linden: ...but then I'd have to kill....myself?
* [14:31] Rob Linden: I'm confused
* [14:32] Kooky Jetaime: look like lights to me
* [14:32] Rob Linden: anyhoo
* [14:32] Squirrel Wood: They symbolize the persistent bugs? ^^
* [14:32] Tillie Ariantho: The next points I had on the agenda were nullified by Dzonatas as already been a topic here or not an issue at all... So what else we have is 3 jira entries and the feedback from the Linden brownbag. .)
* [14:32] Dzonatas Sol: spinning purple things.. they don't spin for me
* [14:32] Rob Linden: looks like the remainder of teh agenda is a bug triage
* [14:33] Dale Glass: what purple things?
* [14:34] Dale Glass: ahh, that
* [14:34] Squirrel Wood: Yum. Jira's fast as a snail again today
* [14:34] Rob Linden: 
* [14:34] Tillie Ariantho: The jira entries are quite old aready and those with the most votes. Maybe they should get some treatment after all. :)
* [14:35] Tillie Ariantho: 744 is Land owners/renters need to be able to move prims that overlap over their land borders, even if the center of the prim is on the other piece of land.
* [14:35] Gigs Taggart: 744... hmm
* [14:35] Kooky Jetaime: This should be a SVC not a VWR shoudldn't it?
* [14:35] Rob Linden: yeah
* [14:35] Gigs Taggart: It's something that LL is well aware of, I'm sure :)
* [14:35] Tillie Ariantho: Thats a rather annoying thing. If your neighbour places a huge prim in the middle of his land, he can cover yours completely...
* [14:35] Soft Linden: This really isn't an open source issue. It might be a good one to bring up during RX
* [14:35] Soft Linden: But yeah - it's SVC.
* [14:36] Gigs Taggart: and probably could be called a bug
* [14:36] Tillie Ariantho: ,)
* [14:36] Kooky Jetaime: Not really a bug, it is a new feature
* [14:36] Gigs Taggart: I don't see any feature.
* [14:36] Gigs Taggart: It's fixing something that creates a problem.
* [14:36] Kooky Jetaime: well, having a 10m buffer zone past your parcel lines that you can return items, if those items scale takes them into your property
* [14:37] Kooky Jetaime: This won't work for Megaprims but
* [14:37] Squirrel Wood: hmm... A solution would be to not rez a prim that is bigger than the land it is rezzed on at all
* [14:37] Kooky Jetaime: it would be a nice clean way to do it for the majority of cases
* [14:37] Gigs Taggart: it's not easy to fix, but that doesn't mean it's not a bug.
* [14:37] Rob Linden: scans looking for a good home to discuss
* [14:37] Squirrel Wood: or to automatically move it so it won't overlap if that is possible
* [14:38] Barney Boomslang: well, I bet the calculations of "is it over foreign land and if yes, which one" with weirdly shaped prims and weirdly shaped parcels is a pain in itself for whoever wants to tackle it - but it's not open source related
* [14:38] Tillie Ariantho: Rob: yes, we can take that issue with us to to that office hour then... :)
* [14:38] Kooky Jetaime: Is this something that could get some answer/help from H4?
* [14:39] Kooky Jetaime: And it wouldn't be move rights, but return rights
* [14:39] Kooky Jetaime: Since you can't move anyones stuff on your land in the first place
* [14:39] Rob Linden: I'm thinking maybe Jack Linden's office hour
* [14:39] Gigs Taggart: yeah, it's just a matter of return rights when the bounding box overlaps
* [14:39] Tillie Ariantho: Rob: okay
* [14:39] Gigs Taggart: Andrew would be good to talk to about it, but he doesn't have hours. :)
* [14:39] Kooky Jetaime: Andrew does now
* [14:39] Kooky Jetaime: He's holding H4 hours
* [14:39] Wyn Galbraith: He does now
* [14:39] Gigs Taggart: well, there you go
* [14:40] Kooky Jetaime: (Havok 4)
* [14:40] Gigs Taggart: what's H4?
* [14:40] Gigs Taggart: oh
* [14:40] Dzonatas Sol: Hmm, tickets have been the way to solve them. I'm wondering if.... do Lindens want to give a group of non-Lindens powers to settle such tickets of overlapped prims?
* [14:40] Gigs Taggart: yes I'd say andrew rather than Jack
* [14:40] Wyn Galbraith: They overlap Zero's Thursday Morning hour
* [14:40] Gigs Taggart: what do you think Rob?
* [14:40] Kooky Jetaime: But Andrew is slammed with H4, so unless we can use H4 to accomplish something, he may not be interested at this point
* [14:40] Gigs Taggart: I think this closely related to H4 actually.
* [14:40] Wyn Galbraith: Maybe bring it up on Beta?
* [14:41] Rob Linden: both places are good to discuss. I'm betting Jack would make a good champion for this issue
* [14:41] Wyn Galbraith: doesn't think she's met Jack.
* [14:41] Rob Linden: Andrew would be able to scope the issue and provide an engineering perspective
* [14:41] Gigs Taggart: yep
* [14:42] Kooky Jetaime: Possibly see if one could attend the hours of the other
* [14:42] Tillie Ariantho: yes
* [14:42] Wyn Galbraith: 7am!
* [14:42] Kooky Jetaime: The next H4 hours are Tuesday 4:30 PDT
* [14:42] Poppy Linden: doesn't think he met jack yet, either
* [14:43] Wyn Galbraith: 7am tomorrow morning Jack meeting time.
* [14:43] Rob Linden: hasn't met Jack either ;-)
* [14:43] Kooky Jetaime: I won't be there at 7a..
* [14:43] Poppy Linden: Office trip :)
* [14:43] Wyn Galbraith: I might not either, couild try for 7:30am
* [14:43] Barney Boomslang: hah. if nobody has seen him - lets spread a new rumor. he doesn't exist. ;)
* [14:43] Kooky Jetaime: have fun, I'll read the minutes
* [14:43] Wyn Galbraith: You don't know Jack!
* [14:44] Saijanai Kuhn: in case someone missed it, SL has been slashdotted
* [14:44] Squirrel Wood: Jacks office hour times are incompatible with my times ^^
* [14:44] Gigs Taggart: I need to harass Jack anyway
* [14:44] Gigs Taggart: so I'll bring it up if none of you all show
* [14:44] Kooky Jetaime: yep, told Everett about it earlier
* [14:44] Wyn Galbraith: /..?
* [14:44] Poppy Linden: Gigs, much appreciated!
* [14:44] Kooky Jetaime: Games: IBM, Linden Labs Call For Portable Avatars
* [14:44] Gigs Taggart: is pretty mad about all his reservations being cancelled.
* [14:44] Saijanai Kuhn: slashdot.org the hacker news site
* [14:44] Kooky Jetaime: 
* [14:45] Wyn Galbraith: wants to be a portable avatar.
* [14:45] Poppy Linden: Kooky, what?
* [14:45] Squirrel Wood: Kooky, been reading it on at least a dozen news feeds too
* [14:45] Saijanai Kuhn: ah, well if its not the main page, its not really slashdotted
* [14:45] Kooky Jetaime: Sai - its on the main page
* [14:45] Wyn Galbraith: Have Wyn will Travel.
* [14:45] Kooky Jetaime: hahaha Wyn
* [14:45] Tillie Ariantho: VWR-1449 from the agenda might be wrong here then, too, as it is not really an open source topic. But I think the VWR-1017 is, as it is being worked on it... :)
* [14:46] Kooky Jetaime: Sai - Below the recasting of Jim Kirk & Steve Balmer getting bitched out by a mom :)
* [14:46] Gigs Taggart: yeah I vote to skip to 1017 too
* [14:46] Wyn Galbraith: Need new curses too, like 'you're nothing but a useless set of pixels!"
* [14:46] Barney Boomslang: hmm. isn'*t the texture baking done on the client?
* [14:46] Squirrel Wood: May I bring https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-632 back to your attention? - If you have any suggestions or ideas that are not being worked on yet or that you think may be good to see in SL... Hesitate to post them... not ^^
* [14:46] Barney Boomslang: so isn<#t a tatoo layer something the OS client could do?
* [14:46] Tillie Ariantho: 1017? why that one? someone has some code for that already. on the open source side.
* [14:47] Gigs Taggart: what's the hold up?
* [14:47] Kooky Jetaime: if we want to eliminate ad farms, lets mute 16m parcels entirely :)
* [14:47] Dzonatas Sol: Mute Visibility is loved by many, but we haven't heard from Able about the last version of his patch
* [14:47] Wyn Galbraith: Promotes two issues of her own for comments etc; https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-2366 & https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-631
* [14:47] Tillie Ariantho: Too bad he isn't here, today. .P
* [14:47] Saijanai Kuhn: it IS on teh main page. The server is doomed
* [14:47] Squirrel Wood: I think I suggested something once to set 16m parcels to "Advertising" and let you mute any content on such parcels via an option in prefs
* [14:48] Barney Boomslang: saijanai: slashdot isn't what it used to be. nowadays efven the front page isn't much worth to worry about. reddit or digg on the other hand ...
* [14:48] Kooky Jetaime: Oh, Heres one that could probably be done by open source, but its mislabeled
* [14:48] Seg Baphomet: HAY GUYS!
* [14:48] Squirrel Wood: which would not load or render them in any way
* [14:48] Kooky Jetaime: lemme find it
* [14:48] Tillie Ariantho: Squirrel: You mean auto labeling to "advertizing"? that sounds good. because no one would do that manually...
* [14:49] Seg Baphomet: What did I miss?
* [14:49] Kooky Jetaime: SVC-235 - its really a viewer issue. Muting a linked object only mutes the exact prim that you right click/mute on, not the entire object, confirmed it with, Wyn I believe
* [14:49] Kooky Jetaime: or was it someone else Wyn?
* [14:49] Barney Boomslang: well, there _are_ legitimate uses for 16sqm parcels
* [14:49] Squirrel Wood: 16m can hold exactly 3 prims.. not much legal use there but advertising
* [14:49] Rob Linden: I've lost track of what we're discussing here
* [14:50] Barney Boomslang: squirrel: wrong. they can hold a landmark - and that's quite important.
* [14:50] Kooky Jetaime: Squirrel - can be useful for permissions
* [14:50] Dzonatas Sol: Squirrel, I've used them for teleport spots
* [14:50] Kooky Jetaime: a place to set scripts before going to no-script area
* [14:50] Tillie Ariantho: Rob: New Feature Request: Option to "Mute Visibility" on objects to alleviate problems with 16sqm parcels, ad-farms and probably a thousand other eye sores.
* [14:50] Tillie Ariantho: That one
* [14:50] Squirrel Wood: Mayhaps. But 99,999 out of 10,000 16m parcels are just adspace.
* [14:50] Rob Linden: we're still on VWR-1017 then?
* [14:50] Wyn Galbraith: Oh yes, Kooky.. had to shake the cobwebs off the brain.
* [14:51] Tillie Ariantho: Yes. .) You think it is wrong here, too? *sigh* Seems I chose badly...
* [14:51] Barney Boomslang: which doesn't make those who _are_ legitimate anything wrong. which means that any way where you throw them all in one bag will piss off users of that legitimate use. just because you do n't use it that way doesn't say everybody does.
* [14:51] Soft Linden: I'm not clear here what needs to be resolved about this issue in an open source meeting.
* [14:51] Rob Linden: Tillie: not necessarily, but I'm wondering if we have the right people here
* [14:51] Gigs Taggart: hehe
* [14:51] Wyn Galbraith: has one 16m spot that just got reverted to the Govenor that digs right into a parcel she owns. "I'll never get that little piece."
* [14:51] Tillie Ariantho: Rob: apparently not. .)
* [14:52] Gigs Taggart: I guess there was some ambiguity about how to make the agenda :)
* [14:52] Barney Boomslang: soft: well, I guess the relation comes in due to the fact that soemone based a open sourc ebuild on that idea
* [14:52] Rob Linden: Able hasn't submitted a patch for this yet, though, right?
* [14:52] Kooky Jetaime: Wyn - take it up with Jack
* [14:52] Barney Boomslang: ables browser is all around the idea of visibility mutin
* [14:52] Kooky Jetaime: he's the Land Linden :)
* [14:52] Dzonatas Sol: I had his previous patch in the Sandbox, but I haven't tested his lastest one. I know he logs from time to time.
* [14:53] Wyn Galbraith: Oh
* [14:53] Tillie Ariantho: true, no patch for that yet.
* [14:53] Gigs Taggart: If I could hijack, I just sent an email about https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewpoint_Advocacy_Groups to the list, please try to take a look at that. It's a draft plan to expand the AWG and provide a framework for requirements conflict resolution and documentation.
* [14:53] Barney Boomslang: problem with those bigger changes is: they won't be just a small patch here and another patch there.
* [14:53] Gigs Taggart: You don't need to discuss it now, just a heads up :)
* [14:54] Rob Linden: Gigs: good idea
* [14:54] Barney Boomslang: which means that I guess it's hard for the lindens to take those changes in - it's an all-or-nothing approach and the bigger it is, the change, the harder it might be to take in
* [14:54] Dzonatas Sol: Just resolve this for now for me to update with the latest patch for the current grid version. k
* [14:54] Tillie Ariantho: Barney: true, but that would require some discussion then if any development in the open source is any useful, as it might never get into the viewer anyway, because of its size...
* [14:55] Tillie Ariantho: Would the Lindens accept his changes? Or not...
* [14:55] Barney Boomslang: tillie: look at the linux kernel model - they do it the same way, there. break patches up in smaller chunks that can be applied independently
* [14:55] Barney Boomslang: I know _I_ wouldn't just grab a big chunk of code from outside and dump it into a project where I was the patchking
* [14:56] Rob Linden: since the Lindens today are pretty consistant attendees, I'm hoping the next meeting focuses around things that we can do
* [14:56] Dzonatas Sol: right now I doubt the patch will go well from the latest 1.18.3 update
* [14:57] Tillie Ariantho: Rob: Yes, sorry. Maybe my focus was wrong.
* [14:57] Dzonatas Sol: Rob, can we get more confirmation that bot policy is on Robin's desk?
* [14:57] Rob Linden: Tillie, actually, the first part was really good
* [14:57] Kooky Jetaime: Whaaa?
* [14:57] Rob Linden: ....and I think the stuff that ended up getting resolved pre-meeting we also really good
* [14:57] Tillie Ariantho: I had more, but it got nullified as already been here. .P
* [14:57] Soft Linden: I liked the approach, but pairing each with a question or concern that can be resolved would be useful. An open discussion about any JIRA could balloon.
* [14:57] Tillie Ariantho: See the crossed out sections...
* [14:58] Tillie Ariantho: Soft: Okay.
* [14:58] Tillie Ariantho: But we still have that one: feedback from the LL brownbag about: Land Bots, whether to take measures to stop them. :)
* [14:58] Tillie Ariantho: The topic we had last week.
* [14:58] Rob Linden: sorry if that sounded like a criticism of the agenda.....I'm actually hoping to focus the conversation
* [14:58] Kooky Jetaime: Thats not an Opensource topic but
* [14:58] Soft Linden: Right. unfortunately, the last brown bag was pushed to quarterly review topics. So the land issues need to happen in the next brown bag.
* [14:58] Kooky Jetaime: one to bring up with Robin at her hours
* [14:59] Barney Boomslang: kooky: well, since the bots are done on libsl and OS client, it kinda is ;)
* [14:59] Tillie Ariantho: Soft: Okay then. .)
* [14:59] Dzonatas Sol: brownbag means?
* [14:59] Kooky Jetaime: But Policy decisions arn't opensource..
* [14:59] Rob Linden: anyway......
* [14:59] Tillie Ariantho: Dzonatas: internal Linden meeting
* [14:59] Saijanai Kuhn: hey all its been fun, but gott run to next meeting. (compiling in background noises)
* [14:59] Dzonatas Sol: ah
* [14:59] Barney Boomslang: and it would be nice to broaden it a bit - not just landbots, but bots in general. should there be put out some word on how bots are expected to be have, for example?
* [14:59] Rob Linden: one thing I'll come prepared to talk about is what I'm doing in Q4
* [14:59] Soft Linden: At the brown bag meetings, we get a cross-section of pretty much the whole company in one place (in-world now) for a loose discussion of whatever topics people propose there.
* [15:00] Rob Linden: (next week)
* [15:00] Soft Linden: It's "brown bag" because they used to do it over lunch, but with more Lindens in more timezones, that won't always be the case.
* [15:00] Kooky Jetaime: Soft - any possibility of having minutes (not trasncripts) ever published for public digestion of them/?
* [15:01] Rob Linden: Kooky: want to volunteer to write minutes?
* [15:01] Soft Linden: I'll keep that in mind if we're talking about something relevant to open source. The last was more about management and goal-setting.
* [15:01] Dzonatas Sol: The only thing I picked up so far is that the UI won't change due to bots (in an implicit way meaning bots won't go away)
* [15:01] Tillie Ariantho: uhm, what are "minutes"?
* [15:01] Kooky Jetaime: ((And I ask for minutes because some times knowing everything is going on the public record can stiffel speach, and thats not what I'm after))
* [15:01] Kooky Jetaime: Uhm
* [15:01] Kooky Jetaime: Sure, I'll give it a try :)
* [15:01] Squirrel Wood: minutes... distilled information.
* [15:01] Tillie Ariantho: a okay.
* [15:01] Kooky Jetaime: Soft - not just open source, but everything..
* [15:02] Kooky Jetaime: actually means I'll have to focus for a change though, that might stink
* [15:02] Rob Linden: I always publish the transcript of this meeting, so ....well, hope you didn't say anything you didn't want out there
* [15:02] Kooky Jetaime: I know
* [15:02] Kooky Jetaime: but "Linden Internal" meetings arn't quite these
* [15:03] Barney Boomslang: well, there might be a reason why they are called "internal" and why they do them "internal" ;)
* [15:03] Rob Linden: oh....I misunderstood
* [15:03] Seg Baphomet: Did I miss anything good?
* [15:03] Rob Linden: yeah, we can't publish minutes of those (Barney is correct)
* [15:03] Kooky Jetaime: yea, and some of us are snoops :P
* [15:04] Rob Linden: Seg: I'll publish transcript. we spoke some about artwork, but nothing earthshattering
* [15:04] Dzonatas Sol: We do appreciate the time that is spent to host these meetings. Hopefully the questions here were worthwhile (even unfocused)
* [15:04] Kooky Jetaime: anyways, Off to Ben's unless he's at the conference too
* [15:04] Soft Linden: Yeah. I can't see the brown bag being opened to public minutes in general. It's supposed to be completely informal and unguarded. That would disrupt that, as we couldn't do things like calling the bigwigs to task over this and that anymore.
* [15:04] Dale Glass: brown bag?
* [15:04] Kooky Jetaime: Soft - thats why I say minutes... you can just glaze over some stuff
* [15:04] Dale Glass: I see I missed something
* [15:05] Barney Boomslang: uh, gigs, I am not the stiars
* [15:05] Gigs Taggart: hehe
* [15:05] Soft Linden: Gotta zoom - another meeting soon, and need to get some bits together for it
* [15:05] Kooky Jetaime: Just like: Soft, Rob, and Pippy raised the issue of such and such.... Will be discussed later
* [15:05] Kooky Jetaime: such as
* [15:05] Kooky Jetaime: yep, see y'all
* [15:05] Gigs Taggart: wow, you move quick
* [15:05] Tillie Ariantho: Rob: Okay, next time I know better what to add. But there wasn't much to find in sldev, this week. .)
* [15:06] Dzonatas Sol: A quick reiteration,... we need xCode testers to work with the SConstruct build process, IM me if interested
* [15:06] Rob Linden: no worries. thanks again for volunteering
* [15:06] Rob Linden: also, for future reference, feel free to come up with stuff that'd be interesting to talk about