User Experience Interest Group/Transcripts/2009-05-21

== Topic & Summary ==
User Experience Interest Group Discussion for May 22, 2009.
Topics: Usable Virtual Spaces; UI Bare Essentials
No summary is yet available for this meeting. Please edit this page to add one.
=== Links ===
* METAVERSE08 Usability in Second Life - Making sense of business - Notes from a talk by Markus Breuer, CEO of The Otherland Group
* "World Builder" - a short film featuring an imagined future virtual environment.
* Instructional Alchemy - Azwaldo Villota's posts on designing usable spaces in virtual world
== Transcript ==
[15:09]	Azwaldo Villota: 	i came prepared with a question today, shall i wait ?
[15:09]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Rob's just finished. more will probably come
[15:10]	Geneko Nemeth: 	What was that Snowglobe thing?
[15:10]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Snowglobe is the new name for Philip's http-texture branch viewer.
[15:11]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Az: you can ask now, or you could wait for a few minutes for more people to come
[15:11]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Cute, although I like http-texture better. >_>
[15:12]	Azwaldo Villota: 	good idea: waiting for more folks
[15:12]	Geneko Nemeth: 	But what shall we do in the meantime?
[15:12]	Azwaldo Villota: 	snowglobe: i'd wondered if that had been mentioned previously, and i didn't catch the reference?
[15:13]	Azwaldo Villota: 	has that viewer been discussed in this group?
[15:13]	Asterion Coen: 	hello folks ;)
[15:14]	Azwaldo Villota: 	howdy, Asterion
[15:14]	McCabe Maxsted: 	ahoy asterion :)
[15:14]	Asterion Coen: 	fine fine thx, what about you ?
[15:14]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hi Ast!
[15:14]	Asterion Coen: 	little commity ? :)
[15:15]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Well the name was on;y announced on the 18th -- https://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/2009-May/013879.html
[15:15]	Morgaine Dinova: 	only*
[15:16]	Geneko Nemeth hasn't been reading mails lately. 	Geneko Nemeth hasn't been reading mails lately.
[15:16]	McCabe Maxsted: 	me neither, hehe
[15:18]	Azwaldo Villota: 	Can anyone recommend any sources of VW design criteria, such as described here: http://www.tinyurl.com/q3czp4 (taken from a presentation by Markus Breuer - The Otherland Group)
[15:18]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Today's Rob meeting covered two things, (i) arranging for community testing (there's a Jira being set up for tests), and (ii) addressing 3 major bugs in it.
[15:19]	Azwaldo Villota: 	i am hoping to find any lists where folks have summarized what "works"
[15:20]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Az: I think you have excessively high expectations of the LL development process :-)
[15:20]	Azwaldo Villota: 	specifically for design elements like navigation aids, or information displays
[15:21]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Okay, here comes our resident display adapter killer :p
[15:21]	Azwaldo Villota: 	have seen some good info from developers
[15:21]	Asterion Coen: 	fire everywhere
[15:21]	Asterion Coen: 	bad bad dragon
[15:21]	Geneko Nemeth: 	!dragon
[15:21]	Azwaldo Villota: 	like that from Otherland CEO
[15:21]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Can't take Garn anywhere :P
[15:21]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hey Garn, Squirrel, Aimee :)
[15:21]	Aimee Trescothick: 	hey
[15:21]	Squirrel Wood: 	Hie
[15:21]	Aimee Trescothick: 	did I arrive intact?
[15:22]	Garn Conover: 	Cerberus and Hewwo!
[15:22]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Azwaldo: Hrm, I don't know of any similar resources or lists like that one
[15:22]	Azwaldo Villota: 	ok, ty Jacek
[15:22]	McCabe Maxsted waves to everyone who just tp'd in :) 	McCabe Maxsted waves to everyone who just tp'd in :)
[15:22]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hey Harleen
[15:23]	Azwaldo Villota: 	Morgaine, I do not expect LL to have such a list...but maybe other developers, like you all
[15:23]	Harleen Gretzky: 	Howdy :)
[15:23]	Garn Conover: 	heya Harleen, glad some1 agrees with me on that Jira
[15:23]	Azwaldo Villota: 	i have started my own list of "effective design criteria", but am new to large scale builds (having mostly just scripted objects)
[15:24]	Jacek Antonelli: 	It's an interesting topic, Azwaldo
[15:24]	Azwaldo Villota was a Jakob Nielson reader in late 90s (Web Usability) 	Azwaldo Villota was a Jakob Nielson reader in late 90s (Web Usability)
[15:25]	Garn Conover: 	friggin almost broke 90 deg today :(
[15:25]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Az: one of the problems is that these are early days. That blogger CEO Breuer seems to think that he can first find his customer requirements and then just cherry pick the virtual world options. Sadly, it's not like that. There are very limited VW options, and you use the package deals you can find.
[15:25]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Just relised this was over here....
[15:26]	Garn Conover: 	heya Tecky
[15:26]	Azwaldo Villota: 	Jacek, is this a topic worth posting as request in Wiki?
[15:26]	Azwaldo Villota: 	something this group would consider?
[15:26]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Hi Garn
[15:26]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Morgaine: Are you referring to the things he said in that article, or something Breuer said elsewhere?
[15:26]	Garn Conover is partiall out of it 	Garn Conover is partiall out of it
[15:27]	Data Landau: 	this a public meeting ?
[15:27]	Morgaine Dinova: 	In the article, Jacek.
[15:27]	Garn Conover: 	heya Data
[15:27]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hi Data. Yes, this is a public meeting. We discuss the SL user experience each week
[15:27]	Asterion Coen: 	data a very confidential one :)
[15:27]	Data Landau: 	cool
[15:27]	Azwaldo Villota: 	howdy Data
[15:27]	Asterion Coen: 	classified by the NSA
[15:27]	Data Landau: 	hey all
[15:27]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Asterion, can you turn the lights off?
[15:28]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Looks to me like a CEO who isn't aware of what's involved in building a VW.
[15:28]	McCabe Maxsted thinks it would be, Az 	McCabe Maxsted thinks it would be, Az
[15:28]	Asterion Coen: 	geneko i was sure u will love them
[15:28]	Azwaldo Villota: 	thanx, McC
[15:28]	Azwaldo Villota: 	will do
[15:28]	Garn Conover: 	oh cool
[15:28]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Morgaine: The article isn't about building a VW, it's about creating content in SL (i.e. building a sim)
[15:28]	Garn Conover: 	shadows on the ambulance lol
[15:29]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I don't see it as cherry picking anything, just describing tips for effective builds in SL
[15:29]	Azwaldo Villota: 	tips, yes
[15:30]	McCabe Maxsted: 	it has some interesting implications, though, like how can the ui help/hinder the good tips, does it do so in any ways already?
[15:30]	Azwaldo Villota: 	i suspect a group like this could generate a list - like that - and raise the bar considerably; and, i know many educators who would probably benefit from that
[15:31]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I think so too, Azwaldo. Sounds like we have a topic for today :D
[15:31]	Azwaldo Villota: 	http://www.tinyurl.com/q3czp4
[15:31]	Azwaldo Villota: 	that is the URL for the list that has been mentioned
[15:31]	Azwaldo Villota: 	thank you all, for the input already
[15:32]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Ah, I see your point about SL builds. But SL is just one instance of a VW, and that article was presented at Metaverse 08, not at SLverse 08. Even if what he says there is specific to an SL sim build only, it needs to apply beyond SL. And it doesn't.
[15:32]	Data Landau: 	
[15:32]	Garn Conover: 	Mrewp Mrewp! ^_^
[15:33]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Morgaine: Heh. A talk entitled "Usability in Second Life - Making sense of business" has to apply to all possible virtual words? ;)
[15:33]	Morgaine Dinova: 	In principle, when presented to a multi-VW audience? Yes.
[15:33]	Azwaldo Villota: 	as an example, i have referred (elsewhere) to the range of navigation aids I've seen around the grid, some are obscure or unclear
[15:34]	Azwaldo Villota: 	this one is obvious (image) http://www.flickr.com/photos/azwaldo/3376319693/
[15:34]	Azwaldo Villota: 	(seen at Jopsy's space)
[15:34]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Usability applies to much more than just SL.
[15:34]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Morgaine: Alright, well, if that's your expectation, I can't change it, even if I find it silly.
[15:34]	Aimee Trescothick: 	the balloon ride is more fun if you set it going without sitting on it though
[15:35]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Azwaldo: That's an interesting one
[15:35]	Morgaine Dinova: 	That's OK Jacek, I find your myopia similar, so it's balanced.
[15:35]	Azwaldo Villota: 	Morgaine: have you ever built out an entire sim? (I have not, and suspect that there is much to be learned from those that have)
[15:35]	Asterion Coen: 	http://insilico.ning.com/video/world-builder <- that one will motivate some
[15:35]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Ah, I love World Builder. ❤
[15:35]	McCabe Maxsted: 	:)
[15:35]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Az: nope, but sounds interesting.
[15:36]	Jacek Antonelli: 	It brought tears to my eyes, and made my usability glands tingle with glee.
[15:36]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Well made film, interesting that post production took so long. It shows too.
[15:37]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Azwaldo: I work for a metaverse development company creating builds here in SL, we have created several full sims.
[15:37]	Asterion Coen: 	morgaine not all guys r as fast as me ;))
[15:37]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I don't work directly on the builds very often, but perhaps I have some tips in my head that I have picked up. *thinks about it*
[15:38]	Asterion Coen: 	also, post production r always long :) (maybe a use in that kind of wjob to work slowly)
[15:39]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hehe. In the case of World Builder, what they call "post production" -- the stuff that they create in the computer after filming is done -- was the whole point of the film :D
[15:40]	Asterion Coen: 	:)
[15:40]	Morgaine Dinova: 	So, how do we get that UI? ;-)
[15:40]	Jacek Antonelli: 	First, we need some volunteers to drill holes in their neck for the big cables like from the Matrix
[15:41]	Azwaldo Villota: 	Thank you, Jacek; I plan to continue exploring this for some time, and am writing about some of what I find here http://instructionalalchemy.com/blog/category/usability/ (in case anyone here thinks of something another time)
[15:41]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Ooh, cool, thanks for sharing Azwaldo
[15:41]	Geneko Nemeth wishes building in Second Life could be so interestng to spectate. Now you don't even know what the builder is doing.	Geneko Nemeth wishes building in Second Life could be so interestng to spectate. Now you don't even know what the builder is doing.
[15:41]	Azwaldo Villota: 	i use "Virtual World Usability" loosely, as it is easier than constantly writing "Effective Instructional Design in Second Life"
[15:42]	Asterion Coen: 	geneko, you know what a builder is doing only when he finished the builds :)
[15:42]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Geneko: now that's an idea ... watching builders, as a spectator sport :P
[15:43]	Asterion Coen: 	i will to install some seats in my workshop for geneko :)
[15:43]	Asterion Coen: 	time to build a freezor and a popcorns machine
[15:43]	Morgaine Dinova: 	lol
[15:43]	Jacek Antonelli: 	"Johnson's got the prim... he falls back... uh oh, we've got a griefer on the field! Quick save there, sitting on that box. The build continues..."
[15:44]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Sadly, what's more likely to happen is watching griefers as a spectator sport.
[15:45]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Watching a very large build be built by a large group of people would be interesting though.
[15:45]	Asterion Coen: 	better is to watch griefers than griefers watching us :)
[15:46]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hrm. Interesting blog, Azwaldo. I'll have to read more later
[15:46]	Morgaine Dinova: 	As you could see the build appearing, speed it up into a snapshot movie.
[15:46]	Asterion Coen: 	morgaine it's difficult to share a same build with several builders
[15:46]	McCabe Maxsted: 	yeah, I got sucked into reading :)
[15:46]	Asterion Coen: 	all builders built differently the same thing :)
[15:47]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Asto: yeah, I heard other complaining. Basically the whole perms system is broken for group builds, right?
[15:47]	Asterion Coen: 	that's a point too
[15:47]	Asterion Coen: 	collaborative rights r not that finre
[15:47]	Asterion Coen: 	fine
[15:47]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah, perms can be a nightmare for group builds
[15:47]	Asterion Coen: 	worst, someone on the same group, not a builder, can to sabote a shared stuff
[15:48]	McCabe Maxsted: 	(side question: have the serverside changes for changing the default permissions made it in?)
[15:48]	Asterion Coen: 	that's why i never share anything, even if im told to share
[15:48]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Is there a Jira or blog or something that outlines how perms *should* work, to support group building well?
[15:48]	Jacek Antonelli: 	McCabe: I haven't heard about that yet.
[15:48]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Nor I
[15:49]	McCabe Maxsted: 	mmk
[15:49]	Jacek Antonelli spent all day yesterday writing about permissions, collab builds, and VWR-8049. -_- 	Jacek Antonelli spent all day yesterday writing about permissions, collab builds, and VWR-8049. -_-
[15:49]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Ah, ideal, looking
[15:49]	Asterion Coen: 	there is a bug ( i think that's a bug) when u want to texturize a shared prim (u dont own it) u cant to select a specific side
[15:50]	Asterion Coen: 	you only can modify all the sides in the same time (witch is not great everytime=
[15:50]	Asterion Coen: 	especialy if that prim is linked to some others
[15:51]	Asterion Coen: 	in that case, i think that put the texture on all the linked prims (witch can be catastrophique)
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Ouch
[15:52]	McCabe Maxsted: 	yikes; is that the bug where "select only my objects" screws with the edit window, or a new one?
[15:52]	Asterion Coen: 	the way is to unlink the part, then try to work. and got a big smile then by the owner who put some time to link those specific prims :)
[15:53]	Asterion Coen: 	(especialy when scripted)
[15:54]	Asterion Coen: 	dunno if that specific to 'only select my stuff' option, but for sure that's not a new bug :)
[15:54]	Asterion Coen: 	but maybe they fixed it, long time i havent tryed again
[15:55]	Azwaldo Villota: 	i must away; i appreciate the feedback here
[15:55]	Azwaldo Villota: 	cheers
[15:55]	McCabe Maxsted: 	thanks for coming azwaldo :)
[15:55]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hope to see you next week!
[15:55]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Take care Azwaldo! Thanks for sharing :)
[15:55]	Asterion Coen: 	nice meeting you :)
[15:57]	Asterion Coen: 	well going to visit a bit arround :)
[15:58]	Jacek Antonelli: 	tc Asterion
[15:58]	McCabe Maxsted: 	have fun :)
[15:58]	Asterion Coen: 	you too !
[15:59]	McCabe Maxsted: 	you know (and this is just idle wondering) I'm really curious what it'd feel to have a dumbed down viewer. Like say, if we were to strip down everything to bare essentials than gave it a shot for a week, what would we miss/what wouldn't we
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Interesting thought.
[16:00]	McCabe Maxsted: 	a social experiment, if you will
[16:00]	Harleen Gretzky still uses Nicholaz 1.18.5.3 all the time 	Harleen Gretzky still uses Nicholaz 1.18.5.3 all the time
[16:00]	Data Landau: 	yeah theres a lot of stuff that could be hacked out
[16:01]	McCabe Maxsted: 	yeah. I was just thinking though that when we talk about taking stuff out, there's always a level of abstraction to it, since there really is no usability data on the viewer. Why not just hack it off and see what happens?
[16:02]	McCabe Maxsted: 	assuming people can get past their muscle memory biases :) hehe
[16:02]	Jacek Antonelli: 	"Hack it off and see what happens" is a good rule of thumb in many fields! Like surgery.
[16:02]	McCabe Maxsted: 	arm? psh. You've already got two! *hack*
[16:03]	Jacek Antonelli grins 	Jacek Antonelli grins
[16:03]	Jacek Antonelli: 	So what would be the bare essentials?
[16:03]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hmm, I dunno. Maybe we could make a list sorting them from most important to least, then define a cut off line?
[16:04]	Data Landau: 	hack as in to reduce or cut ruthlessly;
[16:05]	McCabe Maxsted: 	muwahaha
[16:05]	Data Landau: 	:D
[16:05]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Music and media? Gone. Search, Map, Minimap, Build, Snapshot. Gone.
[16:05]	Data Landau: 	like no chat of profile or snapshot stuff, anything thats not good for building hack it out :D:D:D
[16:06]	Data Landau: 	yep
[16:06]	Jacek Antonelli: 	The entire Advanced, Tools, and World menus, gone.
[16:07]	Jacek Antonelli: 	If we're going _really_ bare essentials, I'd draw the line at "ability to log in and chat with nearby avatars". And maybe throw in "ability to turn around and walk" for fun.
[16:07]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hahaha
[16:07]	Data Landau: 	lol
[16:07]	McCabe Maxsted: 	you can log into one prim only
[16:07]	Morgaine Dinova: 	McCabe: I would never use a cut-down viewer, unless it were a single-function client like an IM app for example. However, I would very much like to be able to turn off huge sections on demand, like for example all build and selection behaviour, leaving me with just world navigation --- and that's quite similar to a "dumbed down viewer". But always switchable.
[16:08]	McCabe Maxsted: 	and all textures are soviet flags
[16:08]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Textures? Don't be silly. Textures are a luxury. *cuts*
[16:08]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Flat shading FTW!
[16:09]	McCabe Maxsted: 	well, yeah, I wouldn't ever morgaine. But I was thinking of it more as a social experiment. All of our interractions with the ui are based arounda strong history--not just our own activities but muscle memory, etc. We have a clear bias that influences our thinking. So what if we shook that up?
[16:10]	Jacek Antonelli: 	It's just crazy enough to work! Or to fail. One of the two.
[16:10]	McCabe Maxsted: 	heh, just a thought
[16:10]	Aimee Trescothick: 	you only need to remove one thing and everything will run perfectly smoothly
[16:10]	Aimee Trescothick: 	the user
[16:10]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hah
[16:10]	McCabe Maxsted grins 	McCabe Maxsted grins
[16:10]	Aimee Trescothick: 	get rid of the user, no need for the interface, we're done, goodnight
[16:10]	Aimee Trescothick waves 	Aimee Trescothick waves
[16:10]	McCabe Maxsted: 	perfect interractions!
[16:10]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Well one important aspect of muscle memory is how we get so used to zooming and cam'ing around that we even try to cam into web browser pages. So that I think is fundamental and must stay.
[16:11]	Jacek Antonelli: 	There's our new strategy for eliminating user complaints in Imprudence, McCabe. No more users!
[16:11]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hahaha
[16:11]	Aimee Trescothick: 	LL beat you to that realisation I think
[16:11]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hah
[16:12]	McCabe Maxsted: 	seriously though, is there any reason not to other than it wouldn't be fun?
[16:14]	Data Landau: 	even a console can be fun :D
[16:14]	Asterion Coen: 	especialy when broken :)
[16:14]	Morgaine Dinova: 	telnet agni.secondlife.com 12345
[16:14]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I'd be up for it
[16:14]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Who needs a viewer
[16:14]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hehe
[16:14]	Asterion Coen: 	lol
[16:15]	Data Landau: 	sopt iam pee my pants roflmao
[16:15]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I can connect to my own private metaverse without any computers. I just lie down and close my eyes in bed for a while. It's not as crazy and random as SL, though.
[16:15]	Data Landau: 	stop
[16:16]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hahaha
[16:16]	Asterion Coen: 	jacek hehe
[16:16]	Aimee Trescothick: 	"You are standing on an island next to a small pyramid, from here you can go North, East, or South"
[16:16]	Morgaine Dinova: 	And no lag
[16:16]	Data Landau: 	lo l
[16:16]	Asterion Coen: 	aimee, remember me my first game on HP 150
[16:16]	Aimee Trescothick: 	heh
[16:17]	McCabe Maxsted stil picks up the HHGTTG text game from time to time 	McCabe Maxsted stil picks up the HHGTTG text game from time to time
[16:17]	Asterion Coen: 	:)
[16:18]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Oh, that's a possible topic for some day that we don't have one. (i) What would SL need to support good gaming? (ii) What changes would the viewer need for it?
[16:18]	McCabe Maxsted: 	like roleplaying/fighting sims?
[16:18]	Asterion Coen: 	morgaine: a super calculator ? ;à
[16:18]	Asterion Coen: 	:)
[16:19]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Good gaming? You don't talk about good gaming when you have 125% of packet loss!
[16:19]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Oh certainly include the ones that SL is worst at, ie. high speed interactive.
[16:19]	Aimee Trescothick: 	heh, field trip to MadPea, then decide what it lacks
[16:19]	McCabe Maxsted: 	ooh! I like the idea of a fieldtrip
[16:19]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Putting all the servers in one place... sheesh.
[16:19]	Morgaine Dinova: 	OMG ... field trips!
[16:19]	Morgaine Dinova: 	What a great idea!
[16:19]	Asterion Coen: 	right geneko, a super calculator + optical fibre and some good configurated routers :)
[16:20]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Also, the walks are handled currently as "go this way" as opposed to "go to here", which is not accurate enough.
[16:20]	Aimee Trescothick: 	lol, field trips in a UI group, "lets all visit this window over here ..."
[16:20]	Morgaine Dinova: 	rofl
[16:20]	Aimee Trescothick: 	ack, after bed time, I have to go
[16:21]	Aimee Trescothick waves 	Aimee Trescothick waves
[16:21]	Data Landau: 	l8a
[16:21]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Bye Aimee! Ni ni
[16:21]	Aimee Trescothick: 	bye :)
[16:21]	Morgaine Dinova: 	In principle could reflect a users screen on an SL prim :-)
[16:21]	Asterion Coen: 	have a good virtual dream aimee :)
[16:21]	McCabe Maxsted: 	sleep well aimee :)
[16:21]	Morgaine Dinova: 	See you Aimee :-)
[16:21]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Everything have to wait for the server. Including walking. There should be some collision detection and dead reckoning in the client so it seems more responsive.