AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-14

*[2009/04/14 09:31] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
*[2009/04/14 09:31] xstorm Radek: hi hi
*[2009/04/14 09:31] Rex Cronon: hi
*[2009/04/14 09:33] Rex Cronon: so many people here today
*[2009/04/14 09:33] xstorm Radek: *GIGGLES* :)Saijanai 20:26, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
*[2009/04/14 09:34] Rex Cronon: was it the same last week?
*[2009/04/14 09:34] xstorm Radek: what is that molecule ?
*[2009/04/14 09:34] Rex Cronon: what molecule?
*[2009/04/14 09:35] xstorm Radek: it seems to have carbon and bases pairs
*[2009/04/14 09:35] xstorm Radek: hi Infinity :-)
*[2009/04/14 09:35] Rex Cronon: is molecule that is present in the human eye, it helps absorbing light waves
*[2009/04/14 09:36] xstorm Radek: yes the molecule up in the air with carbon and base pairs
*[2009/04/14 09:36] Infinity Linden: yay! i has the lag!
*[2009/04/14 09:36] Rex Cronon: hi there "princess charming":)
*[2009/04/14 09:36] xstorm Radek: its not DNA
*[2009/04/14 09:36] Infinity Linden: okay... yay!
*[2009/04/14 09:37] Infinity Linden: looks like a protein to me
*[2009/04/14 09:37] Infinity Linden: you've got your taurine... adenine
*[2009/04/14 09:37] [Inner Strength] 1.00 [script:Physics Control]: Script run-time error
*[2009/04/14 09:37] [Inner Strength] 1.00 [script:Physics Control]: Stack-Heap Collision
*[2009/04/14 09:37] xstorm Radek: its got carbon ?
*[2009/04/14 09:37] Goldie Katsu hopes she waited long enough to rez and isn't sitting on someone.
*[2009/04/14 09:38] Infinity Linden: hmm... do we normally start this late? this is probably the first time i've ever been on time for this meeting
*[2009/04/14 09:38] xstorm Radek: in its subsets unless thats a error
*[2009/04/14 09:38] Goldie Katsu: not usually
*[2009/04/14 09:38] Goldie Katsu: although I've been late as of late
*[2009/04/14 09:38] Infinity Linden: k. i'm gonna get some coffee. be back in a flash
*[2009/04/14 09:38] Goldie Katsu waits for the visual effect
*[2009/04/14 09:40] xstorm Radek: i found a odd error in the wireframe grid in all sims
*[2009/04/14 09:40] xstorm Radek: seems to be a broken line of data moving in all sims
*[2009/04/14 09:41] xstorm Radek: what do you make of it Rex ?
*[2009/04/14 09:41] Rex Cronon: hasn't rezzed yet
*[2009/04/14 09:41] Rex Cronon: toooo lagy?
*[2009/04/14 09:41] Infinity Linden: mmmm... coffee and a nicotine patch. breakfast of champions!
*[2009/04/14 09:42] xstorm Radek: im starting to see more and more errors in the wireframe build of sims
*[2009/04/14 09:42] xstorm Radek: broken lines
*[2009/04/14 09:42] Infinity Linden: hmm. this isn't looking good. zha's also not on gtalk
*[2009/04/14 09:43] Infinity Linden: should we start without her? (zha i mean)
*[2009/04/14 09:43] Rex Cronon: that isthe decription for the molecule above. anybody else wants the description
*[2009/04/14 09:43] xstorm Radek: oh i see
*[2009/04/14 09:43] Infinity Linden: sure
*[2009/04/14 09:44] Infinity Linden: i'll take a molecular description
*[2009/04/14 09:44] Infinity Linden: since we haven't added features that allow for ChemXML to be rendered natively yet
*[2009/04/14 09:44] Infinity Linden: LOL. i was just talking about opsin with one of my co-workers
*[2009/04/14 09:45] Infinity Linden: er... i mean.. the expression of the opsin gene(s) to get cone cells
*[2009/04/14 09:46] Infinity Linden: so... in zha's absence... any topics anyone wants to chat about?
*[2009/04/14 09:46] Rex Cronon: i have a question. where can one find the transcript from last week?
*[2009/04/14 09:46] xstorm Radek: im starting to see broken wireframe in a lot of sims
*[2009/04/14 09:47] Dahlia Trimble: broken wireframe?
*[2009/04/14 09:47] Dahlia Trimble: you mean a problem in wireframe mode? thats probably your viewer
*[2009/04/14 09:47] Infinity Linden: hmm... broken wireframes.. um... might be more of a topic for bridie's bug triaging office hours
*[2009/04/14 09:47] Infinity Linden: but
*[2009/04/14 09:48] xstorm Radek: :-)
*[2009/04/14 09:48] Rex Cronon: u see broken wires:)
*[2009/04/14 09:48] Infinity Linden: might be the starting point for a more abstract discussion about errors in state communication
*[2009/04/14 09:49] Infinity Linden: or... we could wait for the caffiene to kick in and talk of other topics
*[2009/04/14 09:49] Rex Cronon: what is that picture u set supposed to look like?
*[2009/04/14 09:49] xstorm Radek: yes and it may be do to some messing with the database and hiding sims from the main map and the server having no next step in the programing
*[2009/04/14 09:50] xstorm Radek: i vote for coffee
*[2009/04/14 09:50] xstorm Radek: i need some
*[2009/04/14 09:50] Infinity Linden: yeah. we do traditional Linux, we're not MACH fans
*[2009/04/14 09:50] Rex Cronon: i only see a gray image, with 2 lines of different gray values
*[2009/04/14 09:51] xstorm Radek: im starting to see pre Linux dates in the database showing up
*[2009/04/14 09:51] xstorm Radek: may be some one drop in a old telex eprom in error *GIGGLES* :)Saijanai 20:26, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
*[2009/04/14 09:53] Rex Cronon: test...
*[2009/04/14 09:53] Infinity Linden: xstorm... what db are you looking at. in theory, you can't get directly to our db from outside, it all goes through a varying layers of code... which can also introduce problems
*[2009/04/14 09:54] Saijanai Kuhn yawns
*[2009/04/14 09:54] xstorm Radek: when you go to about land and Covenant there are dates
*[2009/04/14 09:54] Infinity Linden: i'm kind of curious cause we found a bug in the 1.26 server alpha that surprised the living heck out of us... a bizarre interaction between the way MySQL handles unicode and the way an old python library handles unicode
*[2009/04/14 09:54] xstorm Radek: the dates are on the DB
*[2009/04/14 09:55] Saijanai Kuhn cracks his knuckles. Behold the power of spam...
*[2009/04/14 09:55] xstorm Radek: when you see a date going back to 1969 thats odd
*[2009/04/14 09:55] Infinity Linden: right. but my point is... you're not issuing a SQL query from the command line. and sometimes it's the code that reads the DB and then spits out the data for clients to see
*[2009/04/14 09:56] Harleen Gretzky: NULL date, just means teh Covenant has never been modified
*[2009/04/14 09:56] Infinity Linden: hmm.. are the dates something like December 31st, 1969?
*[2009/04/14 09:56] Dahlia Trimble: why spam with no Zha?
*[2009/04/14 09:56] Harleen Gretzky: yes
*[2009/04/14 09:56] xstorm Radek: so this data has to be from the database that shows a date
*[2009/04/14 09:56] Infinity Linden: cause if you have a TZ west of GMT set, you'll get those dates
*[2009/04/14 09:56] Harleen Gretzky: Says: Last Modified Wed Dec 31 19:00:00 1969
*[2009/04/14 09:57] Yann Dufaux: hello all :)
*[2009/04/14 09:57] Saijanai Kuhn: ah didn't get tjhe memo
*[2009/04/14 09:57] Rex Cronon: hi
*[2009/04/14 09:57] xstorm Radek: if the date is older then Linux there must be data coming drom some point older
*[2009/04/14 09:57] Harleen Gretzky: Just means there is no date
*[2009/04/14 09:57] Infinity Linden: right. that's 0 seconds from the start of the epoch in the GMT -5h time zone
*[2009/04/14 09:58] Geo Meek: /sorry
*[2009/04/14 09:58] Infinity Linden: Linux uses traditional Unix(tm) epoch dates.. seconds since 1970, so if you tell it to render "date 0" it will tell you some old date
*[2009/04/14 09:58] Infinity Linden: but yeah, sounds like the interface should be telling you something like "never set" rather than "December 31st, 1969"
*[2009/04/14 09:59] xstorm Radek: right so it is dirty code that needs to be updated or point to a 2003 date ?
*[2009/04/14 09:59] Yann Dufaux: bogus of 2000 :)
*[2009/04/14 10:00] Yann Dufaux: i have noticed this, on aditi to if i observ the recleam date :)
*[2009/04/14 10:00] Infinity Linden: a 2003 date?
*[2009/04/14 10:00] xstorm Radek: ;-) well 2002 SL start time in year
*[2009/04/14 10:00] Infinity Linden: did anyone file a bug?
*[2009/04/14 10:00] Yann Dufaux: file on jira to this? :)
*[2009/04/14 10:01] Infinity Linden: well... we use the Unix(tm) epoch for most of our internal time reconings
*[2009/04/14 10:01] Infinity Linden: and
*[2009/04/14 10:01] Dahlia Trimble: no zha on irc either
*[2009/04/14 10:01] Infinity Linden: LindenWorld beta was before 2002
*[2009/04/14 10:01] Infinity Linden: (and don't tell anyone... but NanoCosm was before the LWB)
*[2009/04/14 10:01] Infinity Linden: (but that's a secret) ;-)
*[2009/04/14 10:01] Harleen Gretzky: My PC TZ is GMT -5, so teh time is probably different depending on your TZ
*[2009/04/14 10:02] xstorm Radek: well please do not tell people that i have them thinking we are the new best thing on earth
*[2009/04/14 10:02] Infinity Linden: possibly. or the simulator might be set for that TZ...
*[2009/04/14 10:04] Infinity Linden: i can't remember off the top of my head how that date gets rendered
*[2009/04/14 10:04] Infinity Linden: so.. while we're waiting for zha... and i hope she's okay
*[2009/04/14 10:04] Infinity Linden: wanna talk about architectural stuff?
*[2009/04/14 10:05] xstorm Radek: light ? buildings ? 3D modle scale work ?
*[2009/04/14 10:05] Infinity Linden: more like system and software architecture
*[2009/04/14 10:05] Dahlia Trimble: how about group IM? ;P
*[2009/04/14 10:05] Annie Obscure: does somebody have an agenda?
*[2009/04/14 10:06] xstorm Radek: oh good :-)
*[2009/04/14 10:06] Infinity Linden: if you get me talking about physical (and virtual) architecture i'll just go on for hours about mees van der roe
*[2009/04/14 10:06] xstorm Radek: *GIGGLES* :)Saijanai 20:26, 14 April 2009 (UTC) so do i
*[2009/04/14 10:06] Harleen Gretzky: Changed the TZ to GMT on my alt's PC now it says Jan 01 00:00:00 1970
*[2009/04/14 10:07] Infinity Linden: k. that's it then, it uses yer local TZ
*[2009/04/14 10:07] Infinity Linden: which i guess isn't surprising
*[2009/04/14 10:07] Annie Obscure: whats the difference between Corbusier and God? God doesn't think he's Corbusier
*[2009/04/14 10:07] Saijanai Kuhn: Infinity, Morgaine and me has been arguing the virtues of media interop vs vw interop, with me taking the stance that its al part of a piece (more or less)
*[2009/04/14 10:07] Infinity Linden: LOL
*[2009/04/14 10:08] Infinity Linden: what do you mean media interop?
*[2009/04/14 10:08] Infinity Linden: like avatar meshes and so forth
*[2009/04/14 10:08] Saijanai Kuhn: specifically, trying to get telepresence between OpenSIm and SL
*[2009/04/14 10:08] Infinity Linden: ?
*[2009/04/14 10:08] Infinity Linden: okay
*[2009/04/14 10:08] Infinity Linden: you're trying to do a LiteSimEsque proxy?
*[2009/04/14 10:09] Infinity Linden: (which was a neat hack, though completely a violation of the ToS)
*[2009/04/14 10:09] Saijanai Kuhn: sorta a cxross between gorup IM, a holodeck, croquet and IM-based LESS
*[2009/04/14 10:09] Infinity Linden: good luck
*[2009/04/14 10:09] Infinity Linden: lemme know when you're finished
*[2009/04/14 10:09] Dahlia Trimble: would a personal local proxy be a TOS violation?
*[2009/04/14 10:09] Saijanai Kuhn: in other words, what we were trying to do with the MMOX meeting, but on steroids
*[2009/04/14 10:09] Infinity Linden: ooo dahlia... now you get into a grey area... so
*[2009/04/14 10:10] Infinity Linden: i should start by saying "I am not a lawyer"
*[2009/04/14 10:10] Saijanai Kuhn: and I think I've been totoally misuderstood
*[2009/04/14 10:10] Infinity Linden: but i can tell you the thing we didn't like about LiteSim is that it accepted third party usernames and passwords
*[2009/04/14 10:10] Dahlia Trimble: why would it be different than running a modified open source viewer?
*[2009/04/14 10:10] Infinity Linden: good argument
*[2009/04/14 10:10] Saijanai Kuhn: NOT what I was talking about, sorry
*[2009/04/14 10:10] Infinity Linden: and
*[2009/04/14 10:11] Infinity Linden: it's the justification i would use
*[2009/04/14 10:11] Infinity Linden: i think what i'm trying to say is... i'm not the one with definitive answers on whether it violates the ToS
*[2009/04/14 10:12] Dahlia Trimble: I see ;)
*[2009/04/14 10:12] xstorm Radek: ask spike
*[2009/04/14 10:12] Infinity Linden: but i would agree... it sounds to me like such a setup would not violate the ToS... BUT... that word is totally not gospel... you have to chat with our law-critters first
*[2009/04/14 10:12] Infinity Linden: which probably means that morgaine will now say i said it's okay
*[2009/04/14 10:13] xstorm Radek: *GIGGLES* :)Saijanai 20:26, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
*[2009/04/14 10:13] Dahlia Trimble: forgiveness is usually easier to get than permission ;)
*[2009/04/14 10:13] Annie Obscure: sorry folks, I'm too busy for random chat
*[2009/04/14 10:13] xstorm Radek: no say ask spike
*[2009/04/14 10:13] Infinity Linden: but honestly... if you don't try to intercept other peeps passwords, i'm thinking it would be on the bottom of the priority list for legal peoples to worry about
*[2009/04/14 10:14] Infinity Linden: sai.. are you talking about doing an "EASY" real / virtual meeting space?
*[2009/04/14 10:14] Saijanai Kuhn: INfinity this is totally not what I was talkign about
*[2009/04/14 10:14] Dahlia Trimble: a personal proxy would not be likely to have other people's passwords go through it
*[2009/04/14 10:14] Saijanai Kuhn: well, along the lines of (as a start) a face to face via QT video between SL and OpenSIm
*[2009/04/14 10:14] Saijanai Kuhn: wher both sides see the avies, rather than RL
*[2009/04/14 10:15] Infinity Linden: hmm... for avatars?
*[2009/04/14 10:15] Saijanai Kuhn: right
*[2009/04/14 10:15] xstorm Radek: unless there state law say you can not do it
*[2009/04/14 10:15] Dahlia Trimble: you could probably do that now with no modifications to the current sl
*[2009/04/14 10:15] Saijanai Kuhn: its one side of the thing we were discussing for the MMOX BOF
*[2009/04/14 10:15] Infinity Linden: so you take the camera from your OS session, turn it into 323 and pipe it over as the parcel media on a SL parcel somewhere?
*[2009/04/14 10:15] Infinity Linden: and then do another the other way?
*[2009/04/14 10:15] Infinity Linden: hmm
*[2009/04/14 10:15] Infinity Linden: hmm
*[2009/04/14 10:16] Infinity Linden: that _is_ interesting
*[2009/04/14 10:16] Saijanai Kuhn: have a video feed into SL from the BOF and a view of SL at the BOF and do the same with some other sim/world
*[2009/04/14 10:16] Saijanai Kuhn: though, take the BOF out of the equation so its SL <=video=> OpenSIm
*[2009/04/14 10:16] Infinity Linden: fwiw... there's a great debate internally (and elsewhere) whether or not there should be avatarless cameras
*[2009/04/14 10:16] Dahlia Trimble: I've seen that done before, on some of philip's talks
*[2009/04/14 10:16] Saijanai Kuhn: teleconferencing between vws
*[2009/04/14 10:16] Infinity Linden: so you could go peek somewhere
*[2009/04/14 10:16] Saijanai Kuhn: its just what Metanomics does, but cross world instead of cross sim
*[2009/04/14 10:16] Infinity Linden: this would be one application of such at thing
*[2009/04/14 10:17] Infinity Linden: right
*[2009/04/14 10:17] Saijanai Kuhn: that would be the first step
*[2009/04/14 10:17] Infinity Linden: personally... i think metanomics is a good usecase for avatarless cameras
*[2009/04/14 10:17] Infinity Linden: as is this idea
*[2009/04/14 10:17] Saijanai Kuhn: AND it could be done without requiring everyonbe to be in the same sim: video group IM
*[2009/04/14 10:18] Saijanai Kuhn: instead of having a voice chat, subscribe to a group IM video conference call
*[2009/04/14 10:18] Infinity Linden: yeah. i keep trying to think what a "general solution" for a video distribution would look like and i keep running into many of the same problems the traditional video players encounter
*[2009/04/14 10:18] Saijanai Kuhn: there might only be one camera to look at, or there might be one camera per avie, or something in between
*[2009/04/14 10:19] Saijanai Kuhn: so you could have one to many lectures, face to face teleconferences, etc
*[2009/04/14 10:19] Infinity Linden: the problem with av-less cameras is they consume a LOT of resources on a sim
*[2009/04/14 10:19] Saijanai Kuhn: Infinity, no need for av-less cameras
*[2009/04/14 10:19] Saijanai Kuhn: at least at this point.
*[2009/04/14 10:19] Infinity Linden: k.
*[2009/04/14 10:20] Saijanai Kuhn: the point is to grab the scene data from some avie or avies and distribute it, either as scene data or as 2D video
*[2009/04/14 10:20] Infinity Linden: i would think it shouldn't be _that_ difficult to tell the viewer to render into a video encoder instead of an OpenGL buffer
*[2009/04/14 10:20] Rex Cronon: i thought that what makes sl different from txt chats is that u can move and intreact with a 3d environment
*[2009/04/14 10:20] Saijanai Kuhn: so we could be sitting in THornBridgeTown looking at a live feed of the OpenSim crew at WRight Plaza (and visa versa)
*[2009/04/14 10:21] Saijanai Kuhn: Rex this is the lowest level of interaction
*[2009/04/14 10:21] Saijanai Kuhn: the easiest to implement (I think)
*[2009/04/14 10:21] Rex Cronon: to do that u don't need sl, u might as well use yahoo chat:)
*[2009/04/14 10:21] Infinity Linden: so right... you're probably thinking we start with just distributing raster lines... then move on to an object stream
*[2009/04/14 10:21] Infinity Linden: sort of like multicast for object updates
*[2009/04/14 10:21] Dahlia Trimble: I think there are video screen capture utilities that can render to a live video stream
*[2009/04/14 10:22] Saijanai Kuhn: whichever is most efficient
*[2009/04/14 10:22] Infinity Linden: i think dahlia's right
*[2009/04/14 10:22] Dahlia Trimble: or easier to prove a concept
*[2009/04/14 10:22] Dahlia Trimble: er... "demonstrate" a concept ;)
*[2009/04/14 10:22] Infinity Linden: screen capture thingies would be a much better proof of concept
*[2009/04/14 10:22] Saijanai Kuhn: and like I said, could be rendered to a QT video on a prim, or HUD or group IM auxiliary window
*[2009/04/14 10:23] Saijanai Kuhn: Infinity, how so?
*[2009/04/14 10:23] xstorm Radek: inworld streaming video ?
*[2009/04/14 10:23] Infinity Linden: but i'm guessing the client generating the stream would need a lot of computational horsepower
*[2009/04/14 10:23] xstorm Radek: with web cam in im systems ?
*[2009/04/14 10:23] Dahlia Trimble: multicores are cheap
*[2009/04/14 10:23] Ketsu_Breaker: Usage(使い方)： http://sl.zenryokuhp.com/ketsubreaker.html
*[2009/04/14 10:24] Saijanai Kuhn: well, to render a full scene or even a full blown avatar with surroundings, yes but, the thing that prompted this latest tirade was a video I saw yesterday (fishes around for URL)
*[2009/04/14 10:24] Dahlia Trimble: some of the machinima people connect the output of the video card to another computer which does the capture
*[2009/04/14 10:24] Infinity Linden: well... they may be cheap for you...
*[2009/04/14 10:25] Dahlia Trimble: I'm unemployed... nothing is cheap for me :/
*[2009/04/14 10:25] Saijanai Kuhn: darn cant find it
*[2009/04/14 10:25] Yann Dufaux: sorry, i,m back stupid phone:)
*[2009/04/14 10:26] xstorm Radek: live next to fedex
*[2009/04/14 10:26] Infinity Linden: but yeah.. i would think it could be done fairly easily as a proof of concept. with the caveat that OpenGL and DirectFB many times throw such systems for a loop
*[2009/04/14 10:26] xstorm Radek: or ups and uses there WIFI
*[2009/04/14 10:26] Saijanai Kuhn: it was a simple augmented reality cave where the two people were looking at really bad renderings of each other doing a croquet-like manipulation of the same virtual object
*[2009/04/14 10:26] Infinity Linden: Torley had a list of tools that would do a full screen capture for making machinima
*[2009/04/14 10:26] Saijanai Kuhn: and that's the second step: sharing objects in group IM
*[2009/04/14 10:26] Dahlia Trimble: fraps works quite well
*[2009/04/14 10:27] Saijanai Kuhn: not the actual object, but the scene data for it
*[2009/04/14 10:27] Infinity Linden: sai.. now you're just trying to bait me into saying something unkind about croquet
*[2009/04/14 10:27] Infinity Linden: (remember... i'm the one that likes squeak... zha's the one that goes off on TObjects)
*[2009/04/14 10:27] Saijanai Kuhn: Infinity, Crorquet is really cool in concept (IMHO) but lacks something or another
*[2009/04/14 10:27] Infinity Linden: scalability?
*[2009/04/14 10:28] Infinity Linden: deployability?
*[2009/04/14 10:28] xstorm Radek: to have a meeting with video can be a great next step for SL when it comes to learning , gov and biz industrys
*[2009/04/14 10:28] Saijanai Kuhn: I can see a croquet-like plugin to get this kind of thing working for group conferencing
*[2009/04/14 10:28] Saijanai Kuhn: also, a LESS-like protocol to share simple scene data over the telecom device
*[2009/04/14 10:28] Infinity Linden: yeah. i hate to say it... but yeah... croquet is doomed to be a "research system" until they tackle some of those problems
*[2009/04/14 10:28] Infinity Linden: how bout just repilcating the object update stream?
*[2009/04/14 10:29] Saijanai Kuhn: both have potential uses in a SL-live metaverse, IMHO
*[2009/04/14 10:29] Dahlia Trimble: maybe they only want to be a research system
*[2009/04/14 10:29] Infinity Linden: it has the benefit of having working code behind it
*[2009/04/14 10:29] Infinity Linden: (and here's where i get snarky)
*[2009/04/14 10:29] Infinity Linden: unlike LESS
*[2009/04/14 10:29] Saijanai Kuhn: Infinity, well, for SL and OPenSim, no problems, but once you talk MMOX, you need a dumbed down version to send from one viewer to the other
*[2009/04/14 10:29] Dahlia Trimble: I have code for less, but I haven't tried it out
*[2009/04/14 10:29] Saijanai Kuhn: think Star Wars like holograms
*[2009/04/14 10:29] Infinity Linden: why?
*[2009/04/14 10:30] Dahlia Trimble: why haven't I tried it?
*[2009/04/14 10:30] Saijanai Kuhn: WEll, no agreed upon definition for all objects for starters. You'd either need to have the full interop, or the LESS solution
*[2009/04/14 10:30] Saijanai Kuhn: LESS doesn't make sense for avatar interaction, but it DOES make sense for a simple holodeck sitting on your desk that you're chatting with
*[2009/04/14 10:31] Infinity Linden: one might argue that an object stream renderer that actually exists, has been tested, and has been released under GPL might have some advantages over a proposal that hasn't been implemented, released or tested
*[2009/04/14 10:31] Saijanai Kuhn: you don't need to have scripting and physics implemented
*[2009/04/14 10:31] Saijanai Kuhn: Infinity, i'm talking about the concept of a dumbed down, mutually agreed upon object stream, not LESS per se
*[2009/04/14 10:31] Infinity Linden: if you're just going to do scene graphs, why not VRML or X3D?
*[2009/04/14 10:31] Saijanai Kuhn: LESS-like but not
*[2009/04/14 10:31] Infinity Linden: those tools actually exist
*[2009/04/14 10:32] xstorm Radek: VRML is a bit slow
*[2009/04/14 10:32] Saijanai Kuhn: that's fine too, but how well to they translate into SL-like views?
*[2009/04/14 10:32] Infinity Linden: VRML? not at all
*[2009/04/14 10:32] Infinity Linden: well
*[2009/04/14 10:32] Infinity Linden: there aren't any tools for it that i know of
*[2009/04/14 10:32] Geo Meek: http://www.regnow.com/softsell/nph-softsell.cgi?item=7403-18&affiliate=99210
*[2009/04/14 10:32] Infinity Linden: if you want to stream events, why not just use HLA and DIS and be done with it?
*[2009/04/14 10:32] Geo Meek: 19 bucks
*[2009/04/14 10:32] Saijanai Kuhn: KK I'm talking about "low hanging" fruit here: the 2D video is already done between Sims by metanomics.
*[2009/04/14 10:32] Infinity Linden: why build a new protocol?
*[2009/04/14 10:33] Dahlia Trimble: jw has a LESS prototype available for download on his web site
*[2009/04/14 10:33] Saijanai Kuhn: Infinity, I'm not advocating a new protocol unless needed
*[2009/04/14 10:33] Dahlia Trimble: but it's a prototype ;)
*[2009/04/14 10:33] Infinity Linden: does it do LESS or 1278?
*[2009/04/14 10:33] Saijanai Kuhn: LESS was merely an example of a dumbed down object stream
*[2009/04/14 10:33] Dahlia Trimble: I haven't looked at it closely
*[2009/04/14 10:34] Saijanai Kuhn: but this would really be dumbed down, visual representation only. An immaterial Croquet portal so to speak
*[2009/04/14 10:34] Dahlia Trimble: I tried to run it and it complained about missing dependencies and then I got sidetracked
*[2009/04/14 10:34] Infinity Linden: i dunno... i'm probably going to let other people look at it. i don't know what IP ramifications downloading it might entail
*[2009/04/14 10:34] Saijanai Kuhn: that's the stage up from shared video: windows into other worlds
*[2009/04/14 10:35] Dahlia Trimble: well if I get it to run I'll let you know, but it's not really a priority for me
*[2009/04/14 10:35] Saijanai Kuhn: a stage up from that would be shared 2D/3D corquet-like whiteboards with limited viewing/distribution
*[2009/04/14 10:35] Saijanai Kuhn: the idea is to keep the problem space under control by limiting who sees it and where they see it
*[2009/04/14 10:36] Dahlia Trimble: it seems to be a simple network layer on top of panda3d
*[2009/04/14 10:36] Saijanai Kuhn: and what manipulations of the white board object are allowed
*[2009/04/14 10:36] Infinity Linden: ugh. for my money... the lack of a working distributed white board in SL is an embarassment
*[2009/04/14 10:36] Saijanai Kuhn: One example would be sharing a prim in group IM with the ability for 2 or more participants to play with the build options for it, even if most people can't
*[2009/04/14 10:36] Infinity Linden: i'm gonna have to add that to the list of things to code whilst not writing RFCs and IDs
*[2009/04/14 10:37] Saijanai Kuhn has the beginnings of one, but prim-based whiteboards are worthless IMHO
*[2009/04/14 10:37] Infinity Linden: well... "worthless" isn't the word i would use.
*[2009/04/14 10:37] Dahlia Trimble: heh cool
*[2009/04/14 10:38] Infinity Linden: but "not the general solution we're looking for" might be close
*[2009/04/14 10:38] Object: Touched.
*[2009/04/14 10:38] Object: <-0.68981, -0.27874, 0.66818>
*[2009/04/14 10:38] Object: Touched.
*[2009/04/14 10:38] Object: <-0.68981, -0.27874, 0.66818>
*[2009/04/14 10:38] Saijanai Kuhn: however, I recall some of the IM systems allowed sending of collections of 2D points for drwaing between clients
*[2009/04/14 10:39] Saijanai Kuhn: which is a heck of a lot easier than prim-based systems or hologram/scene graphs
*[2009/04/14 10:39] Infinity Linden: i'm still kinda surprised the XMPP community hasn't come up with a way to send SVG stanzas around
*[2009/04/14 10:39] Saijanai Kuhn: just have a window associated with the group IM window that you can subscribe to, and view and/or modify for everyone else's viewing
*[2009/04/14 10:40] Saijanai Kuhn: one to one, one to many, or even many to many (not advised)
*[2009/04/14 10:40] Infinity Linden: that would be cool, relatively easy to do, and would demonstrate what XMPP is good at
*[2009/04/14 10:40] Dahlia Trimble: I'm impressed Saij :)
*[2009/04/14 10:41] Saijanai Kuhn: a definite usecase for a programmer's white board in group IM: instead of pastebin, just distribute the XMPP svg thing to all subscribers
*[2009/04/14 10:41] Saijanai Kuhn: the point here is not to say "let's do THIS" but "let's see what can be done quickly that looks neat, allows some level of interop between worlds, doesn't violate the TOS, etc"
*[2009/04/14 10:41] Infinity Linden: hmm.. i feel a weekend of java coding coming on...
*[2009/04/14 10:42] Saijanai Kuhn contemplates months or years but everyone has different skillz
*[2009/04/14 10:43] Infinity Linden: yeah.. i'm just saying Java to tweak the C# weenies. everyone knows that real coding takes place in Logo and Smalltalk
*[2009/04/14 10:43] Dahlia Trimble: :P
*[2009/04/14 10:43] Saijanai Kuhn: anyway, was just some brainstorming about "easy" interop. What MOrgaine calls "media interop" instead of "virtual world interop"
*[2009/04/14 10:44] Saijanai Kuhn: I see it as part of a continuum because there are problems that arise for any sort of implementation from 2D to full blown whatever
*[2009/04/14 10:44] Saijanai Kuhn: and some of it should be easy enough to do that its not a huge project, but would be pretty neat. Having teh 2-Way video between SL and OpenSIm for exmple
*[2009/04/14 10:45] Rex Cronon: maybe http://appjet.com/ might be usefull for something fast:)
*[2009/04/14 10:45] Saijanai Kuhn: with shared local chat as a bonus
*[2009/04/14 10:46] Saijanai Kuhn: so anyway, its along the lines of what we were talking about doing for the BOF, but between worlds, not VW and RL
*[2009/04/14 10:46] Saijanai Kuhn: as a start
*[2009/04/14 10:46] Saijanai Kuhn: poor man's interop
*[2009/04/14 10:46] Infinity Linden: kk. though... no reason it couldn't be used for SL / RL interaction
*[2009/04/14 10:46] Infinity Linden: or at least one leg of it
*[2009/04/14 10:47] Saijanai Kuhn: sure and of course, metanomics already shows it can be done that way. THis just removes the RL from teh equation (for whatever reason)
*[2009/04/14 10:47] Saijanai Kuhn: we don't need no stinking web page unless its the web page on a prim (2 way)
*[2009/04/14 10:47] Dahlia Trimble: rl time... bye all :)
*[2009/04/14 10:48] Rex Cronon: tc
*[2009/04/14 10:48] Saijanai Kuhn: and that might be the easiest way to go: implement streaming to webpages that each sim subscribes to: one for one sim, the other for the other
*[2009/04/14 10:48] xstorm Radek: you know why not make video a part of the IM system
*[2009/04/14 10:48] Saijanai Kuhn: xstorm, another possibility, but darned expensive
*[2009/04/14 10:48] Infinity Linden: mm... at the end of the day... protocol is there to transfer state between applications
*[2009/04/14 10:49] xstorm Radek: well you have voice now
*[2009/04/14 10:49] Saijanai Kuhn: there's also the sharing of the representation of objects you can have with WoW
*[2009/04/14 10:49] xstorm Radek: to add a small video screen is not that hard
*[2009/04/14 10:49] Infinity Linden: for my money, it's just a question of which protocol transfers that state the most easily and has tools that work for developers
*[2009/04/14 10:49] Saijanai Kuhn: make that a group IM thingie as well: hey everyone, check out my new hair
*[2009/04/14 10:49] Rex Cronon: video might be too much for some connections:(
*[2009/04/14 10:49] Infinity Linden: but yeah... i wouldn't want to try to push raster lines over XMPP
*[2009/04/14 10:49] Saijanai Kuhn: Infinty +∞
*[2009/04/14 10:50] xstorm Radek: why di i get the odd feeling a man in a dress is watching us ?
*[2009/04/14 10:50] Infinity Linden: but using XMPP (or something like it) to carry information about where an RTP stream is coming from
*[2009/04/14 10:50] Infinity Linden: that's not _that_ bad of an idea
*[2009/04/14 10:50] Saijanai Kuhn: all of these are just "for instance" to get the concept out there for discussion
*[2009/04/14 10:51] Infinity Linden: yup. now its time to go out and play with things
*[2009/04/14 10:51] Saijanai Kuhn: the idea is poor man's interop that can be implemented without requiing OGP-level compatibilty
*[2009/04/14 10:51] Infinity Linden: see what's easy to get working
*[2009/04/14 10:51] Saijanai Kuhn: if we could have this conversation on a virtual monitor with Croquet Hax, while he's sitting in Croquet, for example. Or argue stuff with jhurliman sitting in WRight Plaza
*[2009/04/14 10:51] Infinity Linden: and where's the man in the dress?
*[2009/04/14 10:52] xstorm Radek: i have to find a ghost island thats moving around and get back to building
*[2009/04/14 10:52] Infinity Linden: yeah. i'm gonna wander over and see what Tessa's doing
*[2009/04/14 10:53] Saijanai Kuhn: KK. Just food for thought and all that.
*[2009/04/14 10:53] Mystical Demina: she has an opensim project, talked to her a while back
*[2009/04/14 10:53] Infinity Linden: i pray that if it's something like a commercial OpenSim grid, she doesn't make the same mistakes that LCO made
*[2009/04/14 10:53] Mystical Demina: wanted to hire me for like 30k a year, said that was a lot
*[2009/04/14 10:53] xstorm Radek: gee see what happens when we only see one side of things ?
*[2009/04/14 10:53] Infinity Linden: EEEEEK
*[2009/04/14 10:53] Saijanai Kuhn: though, some of it could be done via a well-defined OGP goroup IM protocol (hint hint)
*[2009/04/14 10:54] Infinity Linden: well... the way the US economy is going...
*[2009/04/14 10:54] Infinity Linden: hmm.. maybe someone could submit something (hint hint)
*[2009/04/14 10:54] Mystical Demina: hehe, maybe, i got layed off so looking for work now
*[2009/04/14 10:54] Rex Cronon: r u going to work for lindens infinity:)
*[2009/04/14 10:54] Saijanai Kuhn: well, waiting for Zha's Agent Domain implementation, and you never quite finished that proposal for OGP group IM
*[2009/04/14 10:54] Saijanai Kuhn: incidentally, pyogp is getting closer to rocking
*[2009/04/14 10:55] Infinity Linden: on my first day at LL, i asked philip... "okay... how soon before i can get paid in L$ instead of US pesos?"
*[2009/04/14 10:55] Rex Cronon: lol
*[2009/04/14 10:55] Infinity Linden: yeah... i've seen what whump's been working on
*[2009/04/14 10:55] Infinity Linden: and heard about what Enus is working on
*[2009/04/14 10:55] Infinity Linden: so
*[2009/04/14 10:55] Saijanai Kuhn: working on a GUI for Enus' multibot script
*[2009/04/14 10:55] Infinity Linden: cool!!!!!!
*[2009/04/14 10:55] Infinity Linden: +1 sai
*[2009/04/14 10:56] xstorm Radek: well off to building
*[2009/04/14 10:56] Rex Cronon: hello folks. i declare todays meeting close:)
*[2009/04/14 10:56] xstorm Radek: if i do not it will not get built
*[2009/04/14 10:57] Infinity Linden: yup. i'm off to go listen to tessa
*[2009/04/14 10:57] Infinity Linden: cheers all
*[2009/04/14 10:57] Saijanai Kuhn: that's a mockup of the multi-avie interface
*[2009/04/14 10:57] Rex Cronon: tce
*[2009/04/14 10:57] Saijanai Kuhn: for creating the batch file
*[2009/04/14 10:57] Rex Cronon: tc*
*[2009/04/14 10:58] Saijanai Kuhn: so enus can create his sample scripts on-the-fly and log in an avie with those parameters
*[2009/04/14 10:59] Rex Cronon: bye everybody
*[2009/04/14 10:59] Saijanai Kuhn: laters
*[2009/04/14 10:59] Saijanai Kuhn hopes zha is ok
Category:Grid_Interoperability_Chat_Logs
Category:AW_Groupies_Transcripts
Category:MMOX