AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-13

[9:40] 	Burhop Piccard: 	So I put an item on Zero's schedule for thursday to talk about geometry.
[9:40] 	Zha Ewry: 	Good
[9:40] 	Morgaine Dinova: 	Tree: OMG! I want to see that!
[9:41] 	Zha Ewry: 	There is incremental progress being made on the low level transport front
[9:41] 	Burhop Piccard: 	I think it should be easy-- just get everyone on the same page.
[9:41] 	Tree Kyomoon: 	if you want to , IM Ina Centaur
[9:41] 	Saijanai Kuhn: 	Zha, how do yo umean?
[9:41] 	Morgaine Dinova: 	kk
[9:41] 	Zha Ewry: 	Whihch has been chugging away on it, in his office hours
[9:41] 	Zha Ewry: 	I forced him to pin down what he means by Idempotent, and he has a nominal todo, to start figuring out where we need more than
[9:42] 	Zha Ewry: 	the very lightweight form of "put/post" that seems likely to be the basic norm
[9:42] 	Zha Ewry: 	Also some talk about pub/sub
[9:42] 	Morgaine Dinova: 	Aye, last meeting with Which+Donovan was great: lasted 5 mins, we all said "Well all agree, bye" .... :-)
[9:42] 	Zha Ewry: 	With a plan to talk about the basic style of that, in the next Which Linden office hours
[9:42] 	Zha Ewry: 	Well, because we spent an hour, in IM on Friday.
[9:43] 	Zha Ewry: 	And.. I will try and capture that agreement, and get it onto the wiki
[9:43] 	Morgaine Dinova: 	Neat Zha
[9:43] 	Zha Ewry: 	So... Bigger question for this group.. is what we want to do about the Wiki?
[9:44] 	Zha Ewry: 	I konw lots of people are unhappy.
[9:44] 	Tree Kyomoon: 	unhappy?
[9:44] 	Tree Kyomoon: 	really?
[9:44] 	Zha Ewry: 	I am, frankly, too. I think we need something, other than "Linden blessed" or "no standing"
[9:44] 	Vincent Nacon: 	well... what to do about it... question would have been why use it?
[9:44] 	Morgaine Dinova: 	I suggest we just live with it, and continue working. We could go all "activist" ... but who wants the agro? I just want to work at this.
[9:44] 	Burhop Piccard: 	Tree, take a look at SLDEV :-(
[9:45] 	Saijanai Kuhn: 	Zha made some assumptions about the public stance of LL vs what they wer eactualy going to DO
[9:45] 	Tree Kyomoon: 	im so out of the loop :)
[9:45] 	Morgaine Dinova: 	If it all goes pear shaped .... we just work on our own in AW Groupies.
[9:45] 	You: I was one week off and totally out of the loop ;-) 	You: I was one week off and totally out of the loop ;-)
[9:45] 	Zha Ewry: 	THat may be where w eend up
[9:45] 	Morgaine Dinova: 	As long as AW Groupies is ****LEFT alone****
[9:45] 	Tree Kyomoon: 	if we work independantly of the lindens, would the objective be to build our own platform as well?
[9:45] 	Zha Ewry: 	That may be a reasonable statring point
[9:45] 	Saijanai Kuhn: 	What I've noticed is that certain people made "proposals" and then just kicked back and never spke again
[9:46] 	Burhop Piccard: 	I think the idea of "sandbox" was bad. They are dividing the WIKI like code.
[9:46] 	Zha Ewry: 	That is he goal, already tree
[9:46] 	Zha Ewry: 	The OpenSim stuff, is seperate
[9:46] 	Zha Ewry: 	If will have needs which diverge from Linden's from time to time
[9:46] 	Tree Kyomoon: 	so this is more of an Open Sim group than a linden group?
[9:46] 	Saijanai Kuhn: 	This is an IBM-sponsored group
[9:47] 	Saijanai Kuhn: 	more or less
[9:47] 	Morgaine Dinova: 	Well it would be sad if Lindens ignored community input in favour of keeping their own tree "corporate clean". But we can't force them. It's their company.
[9:47] 	Zha Ewry: 	Its an open group.
[9:47] 	Vincent Nacon: 	I doubt it
[9:47] 	Zha Ewry: 	I work for iBM, but I'm not
[9:47] 	Tree Kyomoon: 	they seem to be welcoming community input though
[9:47] 	Zha Ewry: 	more than another part of the community
[9:47] 	Tillie Ariantho: 	hello all :)
[9:47] 	Vincent Nacon: 	I know I had few lindens listened to me past this year
[9:47] 	Morgaine Dinova: 	Tree: welcoming in public statements, closing it down in practice. No idea why
[9:47] 	Tree Kyomoon: 	I dont see the problem personally...someone has to be the leader
[9:47] 	Zha Ewry: 	For that matter, we may be big and blue, but, we're part of the community too
[9:47] 	Saijanai Kuhn: 	Should say, that your view reflects IBM's view more than it does LInden's
[9:48] 	Zha Ewry: 	Oh. probably
[9:48] 	Zha Ewry: 	Our goals, in theory, are pretty compatible
[9:48] 	Morgaine Dinova: 	LOL, I never saw myself as IBM-sponsored. Maybe it's because of IBM's very delicate touch. It doesn't try to mandate.
[9:48] 	Vincent Nacon: 	it's not really about having a community to make a bigger difference... more like actually giving them something that is more reasonable
[9:49] 	Vincent Nacon: 	they want something easy
[9:49] 	Zha Ewry: 	Actually, I think, it is about the community
[9:49] 	Zha Ewry: 	Especially, in the GPLv3, copy left sense of the notion
[9:49] 	Saijanai Kuhn: 	Its ONLY about the community. SL is a community building tool
[9:49] 	Zha Ewry: 	The reason to do this, at all in open, with lots of people, is because, we all benefit
[9:49] 	Tree Kyomoon: 	thats not how I see it Saij, although that is one aspect of SL
[9:49] 	Tree Kyomoon: 	to me, SL is just a big development platform
[9:49] 	Vincent Nacon: 	I mean as far it goes for making a change
[9:49] 	Zha Ewry: 	Vibrant community, in the software sense, is what we need here
[9:50] 	Saijanai Kuhn: 	But itsw only a "platform" if lots of people participate.
[9:50] 	Morgaine Dinova: 	Vincent: that's true. But nobody in the community wants to work as an obedient slave. People only contribute if they can make a difference. The Linden approach seems to be to remove the opportunities to make a difference. It might change though.
[9:50] 	You: I guess the problem here is simple, that LL has a corporate goal with the project 	You: I guess the problem here is simple, that LL has a corporate goal with the project
[9:50] 	Morgaine Dinova: 	Sai: indeed
[9:50] 	Tara5 Oh: 	/sorry have to run cyas soon!
[9:50] 	You: and they need to hit the deadline more or less 	You: and they need to hit the deadline more or less
[9:50] 	Zha Ewry: 	Right, the words, I am tryign on, is "We want people to embrace and extend"
[9:51] 	You: and need to make sure their grid can be ported with not too much hassle to the new system 	You: and need to make sure their grid can be ported with not too much hassle to the new system
[9:51] 	Zha Ewry: 	Linden needs some things, which is good, drives the effort a bit
[9:51] 	Tree Kyomoon: 	Id be intersted to see some examples of this "open public" but not in practice, and see if they cant be reasonably explained
[9:51] 	You: yes, otherwise we might not be here ;-) 	You: yes, otherwise we might not be here ;-)
[9:51] 	Zha Ewry: 	But.. it can't just be "Hey, you people, go do this" and ignore your needs
[9:51] 	You: it's probably harder than one thinks to make open public work with a corporate goal -) 	You: it's probably harder than one thinks to make open public work with a corporate goal -)
[9:52] 	Tree Kyomoon: 	thats the whole internet Tao
[9:52] 	You: that's why we have many projects on the internet ;-) 	You: that's why we have many projects on the internet ;-)
[9:52] 	Zha Ewry: 	Well, apache
[9:52] 	Zha Ewry: 	Linux,
[9:52] 	Zha Ewry: 	MySQL
[9:52] 	Tree Kyomoon: 	php
[9:52] 	Zha Ewry: 	Big chunks of the Ajax community
[9:53] 	Zha Ewry: 	It isn't easy, not at all
[9:53] 	Morgaine Dinova: 	Tao: LL's current "corporate goal" is 95% "how do we get out of theses burning flames?". If they take it slowly they're charcoal dead. We're trying to help ... they're nottoo interested though. Go figure.
[9:53] 	Zha Ewry: 	But.. we can do it
[9:53] 	Vincent Nacon: 	yeah speaking of which... they are upgrading to version 5
[9:53] 	You: I am not saying that we cannot do it 	You: I am not saying that we cannot do it
[9:53] 	You: just saying that some parts might be incompatible with what LL needs 	You: just saying that some parts might be incompatible with what LL needs
[9:53] 	Tree Kyomoon: 	you cant pull a company out of burnign flames with a committee
[9:53] 	You: so the best we can do is probably to see in detail how we can stay as close as possible 	You: so the best we can do is probably to see in detail how we can stay as close as possible
[9:54] 	You: I mean, LL has the biggest grid and it might be interesting to have some components up which allos me to connect to it 	You: I mean, LL has the biggest grid and it might be interesting to have some components up which allos me to connect to it
[9:54] 	Zha Ewry: 	Well, opeflly, we get some code done too. OpenSim.. is largely about gettign code done
[9:54] 	You: otoh of course it might also be nice to think in broader terms 	You: otoh of course it might also be nice to think in broader terms
[9:54] 	Zha Ewry: 	But, no, Linden, is going to have to put their own flames out
[9:54] 	Vincent Nacon: 	might be too late to make any "big" change cause I know they have been planning on their own since last March
[9:54] 	Morgaine Dinova: 	Tree: indeed, but you can do so with multiple parallel developers. The community has that manpower, LL doesn't. There's only one answer.
[9:55] 	Tree Kyomoon: 	let the community into the collab so they can reprogram everything?
[9:55] 	Tree Kyomoon: 	I mean, if the community is so powerful, why doesnt opensim already work better than SL?
[9:55] 	Morgaine Dinova: 	They *cannot* wait ... the scalability trend can only get worse, not better. Tomorrow the flames won't be a mile high, but 10 miles.
[9:55] 	You: well, what we can try though is to take the LL grid as once instance of the broader idea 	You: well, what we can try though is to take the LL grid as once instance of the broader idea
[9:55] 	Tree Kyomoon: 	(plays devils advocate)
[9:55] 	You: and make something "bigger" but still make sure to be able to connect to the LL grid 	You: and make something "bigger" but still make sure to be able to connect to the LL grid
[9:56] 	You: I am not sure if this is of much help for LL though ;-) 	You: I am not sure if this is of much help for LL though ;-)
[9:56] 	You: as we might take longer 	You: as we might take longer
[9:56] 	Tree Kyomoon doesnt understand what exactly is on fire here... 	Tree Kyomoon doesnt understand what exactly is on fire here...
[9:57] 	Vincent Nacon: 	textures
[9:57] 	You: I wasn't here last week though so I am not sure if LL ist just doing or doing and communicating at least 	You: I wasn't here last week though so I am not sure if LL ist just doing or doing and communicating at least
[9:57] 	Morgaine Dinova: 	"Non-scalability hell" is the worst nightmare ever. I've been there with a national ISP. You can't fix a small part today and hope things are better tomorrow. By tomorrow the population grown has soaked up your improvement and more.
[9:57] 	Vincent Nacon: 	they are 80% of all the traffic brandwidth to their network problem
[9:57] 	You: well, but we are not only thinking about scalability but also about extending the whole system here I think 	You: well, but we are not only thinking about scalability but also about extending the whole system here I think
[9:57] 	Zha Ewry: 	Textures, is part of it. Key services swamping, it even worse
[9:57] 	Morgaine Dinova: 	You have to fix the non-scalability NOW. Regardless of pain, regardless of closing grids.
[9:57] 	You: so for them the scalability issue alone might save them for now 	You: so for them the scalability issue alone might save them for now
[9:58] 	You: if it works out that is ;-) 	You: if it works out that is ;-)
[9:58] 	Tree Kyomoon: 	well, I think being waterboarded is closer to the worst nightmare ever. We have a functioning platform that is being rebuilt from the ground up, with some community involvement where possible. I just dont see any reason to panic.
[9:58] 	Groove Market: 	Tree, I would guess that the lack of opensim progress is directly influenced by the ongoing plan to release the linden server - it feels like misdirected effort.
[9:58] 	Vincent Nacon: 	if you have taken away all textures, SL could scale as much it want to
[9:58] 	Zha Ewry: 	OpenSim is moving right along
[9:58] 	You: I wouldn't count on any linden server to be opensourced soon 	You: I wouldn't count on any linden server to be opensourced soon
[9:58] 	Zha Ewry: 	And, not looking at linden, except via the AWG, at the omment
[9:59] 	Saijanai Kuhn: 	Zero has already said that OpenSim will "get there" faster than LL will
[9:59] 	You: and I wouldn't know why this should affect OpenSim, they have different ideas than LL sometimes 	You: and I wouldn't know why this should affect OpenSim, they have different ideas than LL sometimes
[9:59] 	Vincent Nacon: 	and buggy
[9:59] 	Saijanai Kuhn: 	But OPen Sim can work at a different pace than LL can
[9:59] 	Zha Ewry: 	Because Tao, the goal, is to habve multiple implementations
[9:59] 	You: so it's a better (and more known) playground for opensim devs 	You: so it's a better (and more known) playground for opensim devs
[10:00]	You: Zha, of course 	You: Zha, of course
[10:00]	You: if opensim is willing to implement what LL wants them to implement ;-) 	You: if opensim is willing to implement what LL wants them to implement ;-)
[10:00]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Well we're working as much for OpenSim as for LL. Both can take our efforts. As it happens OpenSim has no interest in scalability whatsoever currently. That can change in a week though.
[10:00]	Tree Kyomoon: 	dont get me wrong, I hope that OpenSim outpaces LL as long as it remains Open, and doestn get p0wned by some huge company
[10:00]	You: I think also opensim has interest in scalability, at least I heard Adam talking abou tit 	You: I think also opensim has interest in scalability, at least I heard Adam talking abou tit
[10:00]	You: about it :) 	You: about it :)
[10:00]	You: just forgot where 	You: just forgot where
[10:01]	Vincent Nacon: 	what about the market? personal inventory to another grid?
[10:01]	Vincent Nacon: 	it would fail
[10:01]	Zha Ewry: 	Its BSD code, so it is unlikely to get eaten whole. And. Our goals, (IBMs) for openSim, certainly iinclude scaling
[10:01]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Tao: as I said, could change in a week. Last time I spoke to Adam here, he said "not currently" :-)
[10:01]	Zha Ewry: 	Once Linden says "multipel grids" they are inherntly talkign about assets too
[10:01]	You: ok :) 	You: ok :)
[10:02]	Tree Kyomoon: 	I thought Adam was embracing scaling last I talked to him
[10:02]	Tree Kyomoon: 	but he also seemed more itnerested in just getting it to work period
[10:02]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	which goes back to this intricate login/sim-crossing/im, etc mess that is all globbed together
[10:02]	You: let's just assume that they will tackle scaling now or at some point ;-) 	You: let's just assume that they will tackle scaling now or at some point ;-)
[10:02]	You: I guess first you want to have it sort of working, then you recode everything to also make it scale ;-) 	You: I guess first you want to have it sort of working, then you recode everything to also make it scale ;-)
[10:02]	Tree Kyomoon: 	I am open to the possibility that something this huge and complicated just cant scale and still work given the current state of the art.
[10:02]	Zha Ewry: 	So.. Assets, actually, are really interesting...
[10:03]	Zha Ewry: 	Why Tree?
[10:03]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Well the advantage OpenSim has is .... a ton of parallel hands :-) Lindens don't have that advantage
[10:03]	You: Assets are those things where it gets very interesting indeed :) 	You: Assets are those things where it gets very interesting indeed :)
[10:03]	Tree Kyomoon: 	it could be that the reason it works now is because its so heavily vectorized to a very specific functionality
[10:03]	You: the advantage opensim is also that they don't have 10 million registered users ;-) 	You: the advantage opensim is also that they don't have 10 million registered users ;-)
[10:03]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Tao: hahahaha
[10:03]	Tree Kyomoon: 	scaled/standardized approaches take that away, this would be akin to swf vs svg. SVG is just too slow.
[10:04]	You: which means they still can recode everything 	You: which means they still can recode everything
[10:04]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Tao: yep
[10:04]	Vincent Nacon: 	it's like having wordpress and blogger or MSN IM and AOL IM... they don't mix because they don't share the same account, So favoritsm would take place.... so LL would win over OpenSim due to population and active market
[10:05]	Vincent Nacon: 	gotta have really good reason to be on OpenSim than LL's
[10:05]	Zha Ewry: 	How does that ocntinue to work, once you can to to an OpenSim Region?
[10:05]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hey, no worries, after Sai and I have written the new client, we'll rewrite OpenSim, no biggie. Damn, where did I put my straightjacket ....
[10:05]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	Im wearing it
[10:06]	Tree Kyomoon: 	anybody here tried electric sheeps client yet?
[10:06]	Morgaine Dinova: 	LOL. My turn Sai!
[10:06]	You: well, if OpenSim is more complete and you will be able to easily hook up your own server the landscape might change 	You: well, if OpenSim is more complete and you will be able to easily hook up your own server the landscape might change
[10:06]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	onrez is just a variation of the current client. Same code with a few interface tweaks
[10:07]	Vincent Nacon: 	I know people want their own sims but would you connect other people in there?
[10:07]	You: not today or the next week but one year from now.. 	You: not today or the next week but one year from now..
[10:07]	Vincent Nacon: 	how to get random traffic?
[10:07]	Zha Ewry: 	Vincent, they will look identical, and they will be mappable, and linkable, and you'll be able to TP, so what not?
[10:07]	You: well, you hardly get random traffic I think ;-) 	You: well, you hardly get random traffic I think ;-)
[10:07]	You: like now, advertise 	You: like now, advertise
[10:07]	You: like with every website 	You: like with every website
[10:07]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	part of the AWG goal of Linden Labs is to ALLOW people to TP in and out of OpenSim sims
[10:07]	Zha Ewry: 	with thier Aves, assets, and IMs all working
[10:07]	Tree Kyomoon: 	I dont know, even right now with a proprietary sim structure, they are only slightly more expensive than a server in the RL space in terms of rent costs.
[10:08]	Vincent Nacon: 	then it would be part of LL's
[10:08]	Tillie Ariantho: 	in and out ANY sims ...
[10:08]	Zha Ewry: 	Any, AWG compliant, yes, Tillie
[10:08]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	well, in and out of any sims that follow the AWG design
[10:08]	Zha Ewry: 	And.. mixes of stuff
[10:08]	Tree Kyomoon: 	the costs would have to become more like 1-2 thousand bucks a month to make it worth developing an alternative
[10:08]	Zha Ewry: 	So, AWG sims, and Linden Asset servers, or vice versa
[10:08]	Tree Kyomoon: 	imho
[10:08]	You: it comes again down to the question where assets will be stored ;-) 	You: it comes again down to the question where assets will be stored ;-)
[10:08]	Morgaine Dinova: 	We haven't spoken about that with Zero yet. I discussed the need for grid caching of subgrids on the wiki, so that subgrids or individual worlds aren't marginalized through Slashdotting, but it hasn't been picked up as a topic yet.
[10:09]	Morgaine Dinova: 	In fact, interop hasn't been discussed as a topic at all.
[10:09]	Morgaine Dinova: 	We're doing pretty badly.
[10:09]	Tree Kyomoon: 	I thought that zero was talking about all that being optional in the new architecture
[10:09]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	Lets get login workign as a script, then poitn to it and say "can we do better, please?"
[10:09]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	Until we get even that working, there's no reason for LL to tak us eriously
[10:09]	Tree Kyomoon: 	there isnt anything to interop with so thats why the discussion hasnt come up :)
[10:10]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Tree: how the hell can interop be optional in an interopping arch? ;-)
[10:10]	Tree Kyomoon: 	exactly saij
[10:10]	Zha Ewry: 	well, it is lrking in the asset discussion
[10:10]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	Zero has given us a test with a few months to work on it,and we haven't even started
[10:10]	Tree Kyomoon: 	I dont mean iterop is optional, I mean who has the asset server, sim, user are all optional/modular/interchangeable
[10:11]	Zha Ewry: 	and I was, this morning, talking with one of or OpenSim people about how to roll in Mulib and such in C#
[10:11]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yeah Zha, it is there, but in stealth mode. We need to bring interop out into the open.
[10:11]	Zha Ewry: 	Aye.
[10:12]	Tree Kyomoon: 	interop is clearly crucial, but I think its a given as long as we are all developing this in the open /together
[10:12]	Zha Ewry: 	When we have the basics transoports all specced, that wil help
[10:12]	Tree Kyomoon: 	no silos
[10:12]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Well both scalability and interop are the project motivation. Without them, we can go home and put our feet up ;-)
[10:14]	Zha Ewry: 	Heh
[10:14]	Zha Ewry: 	I think that the whole effort, whill be driven from both ends
[10:14]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	It all starts with login though. I'm having to learn about too many things at once to say "I can get this done in x amount of time"
[10:15]	Zha Ewry: 	Yeah, a good place for it to start
[10:15]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	Zero gave us a class project IMHO and we haven't started on it. Until we get it done, he's going to roll his eyes behind our backs and nod politely
[10:15]	You: what project did he give us? 	You: what project did he give us?
[10:15]	Zha Ewry: 	and Which is takign on the "where is my Ave on the sim" as a use case
[10:15]	Zha Ewry: 	Login. He gave us login
[10:16]	You: well, I'd rather see Login coming from him to see how it's supposed to work from an LL POV 	You: well, I'd rather see Login coming from him to see how it's supposed to work from an LL POV
[10:16]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	And Gareth was hired away, and what he could code in an hour, takes me at least a week or two
[10:16]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Sai: while he rolls his eyes behind our backs and nods politely .... his backside is on fire. So it's not that simple ;-))))))
[10:16]	Zha Ewry: 	Tao I think in fact,we're being told, not to go hat way
[10:16]	Zha Ewry: 	He wants *us* to look at it too
[10:17]	Tillie Ariantho: 	Too bad I do not really have good C++ programming experience. :-/
[10:17]	You: but honestly I cannot really start like that ;-) I don't even know how capabilities are supposed to work ;-) 	You: but honestly I cannot really start like that ;-) I don't even know how capabilities are supposed to work ;-)
[10:17]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	We already have 3 samples of how it currentyly works. one in C++, and 2 in C#
[10:17]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	If we can't draw our own version out of that, what good are we?
[10:17]	Zha Ewry: 	and. Siaj.. I hope to be able to start putting up endpoints, on the external web for testing, in the next month or so.
[10:18]	You: so why don't we talk about login now? :) 	You: so why don't we talk about login now? :)
[10:18]	Zha Ewry: 	Testable
[10:18]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	until we understand from teh ground up how it currenlty works, we can't talk about how to make it work beter. LL doesn't want a completely redone Login Im a sure, unless we can point to the current procedure and say "this won't work" in the futuer because...
[10:18]	You: actually I'd need to go in a few mins though 	You: actually I'd need to go in a few mins though
[10:19]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Login is a noddy process, the fact that we don't understand it is just a hiccup, we will. (LL must help us understand it, this isn't a MMOG quest) Let's do it, and proceed.
[10:19]	Zha Ewry: 	What they want, is a "Here's how login would work, with caps, and c-http, and such" I htink
[10:19]	You: so how would login work with capabilities, c-http etc.? :) what could be the flow? 	You: so how would login work with capabilities, c-http etc.? :) what could be the flow?
[10:19]	Tillie Ariantho: 	Saijanai: If we do any programming or not, at least we are collecting a lot of things like use cases and all. Lots of important stuff to think of. Whoever is doing the actual programming he will be grateful to have all that. .)
[10:19]	You: I guess it startes with client to agent domain 	You: I guess it startes with client to agent domain
[10:19]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	I think we need to start with "here is how it currently works with..." and here is how it SHOULD work...
[10:20]	You: Well, currently I think we do an XMLRPC request to the login server and get back some data with e.g. the sim to use 	You: Well, currently I think we do an XMLRPC request to the login server and get back some data with e.g. the sim to use
[10:20]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Well being able to login to the current system with some noddy reference code would sure help.
[10:20]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	yep. And that XMLRPC has lots of stuff in it that doesn't make sense
[10:20]	You: for instance? 	You: for instance?
[10:20]	You: I once programmed it in Pyhton actually 	You: I once programmed it in Pyhton actually
[10:20]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	doesn't make sense in an open grid (and really doesn't make sense from a design perspective)
[10:20]	You: Python even 	You: Python even
[10:21]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	youdid? Do you still have the code?
[10:21]	You: well, of course we won't use XMLRPC 	You: well, of course we won't use XMLRPC
[10:21]	You: yes, but only for the login server part 	You: yes, but only for the login server part
[10:21]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	thats all I need
[10:21]	You: I quickly looked at the sim stuff but that was UDP and I gave up ;-) 	You: I quickly looked at the sim stuff but that was UDP and I gave up ;-)
[10:21]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Tao: that would be excellent to have
[10:21]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	I'm trying to learn how to do that
[10:21]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	and since I've never done XMLRPC iats slow going for me
[10:22]	Deanfred Brandeis: 	I'm assuming someone's looked at the libsl implementation.
[10:22]	You: it is form January so it probably won't work anymore 	You: it is form January so it probably won't work anymore
[10:22]	You: but I will look for it 	You: but I will look for it
[10:22]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	each parameter of the login needs to be justified for the login
[10:22]	You: I used the libsl implementation as basis 	You: I used the libsl implementation as basis
[10:22]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	I have the client, the libsl and another one
[10:22]	You: but the xmlrpc was not too hard 	You: but the xmlrpc was not too hard
[10:22]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	that's what I'm planning as well.
[10:22]	You: I mean, it's just libsl ;-) 	You: I mean, it's just libsl ;-)
[10:22]	You: err, xmlrpc 	You: err, xmlrpc
[10:23]	You: might create a google code project 	You: might create a google code project
[10:23]	Tree Kyomoon: 	I do a lot with XMLRPC and http in flash, and all I can say is, its solid but its probably wayy too slow for this kind of thing...I mean, my average call is 600-800 lines of XML for relatively simple rendering
[10:23]	Zha Ewry: 	One thing, we should be looking at, is getting both ends out there
[10:23]	Zha Ewry: 	So we can test harness it
[10:23]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Tao: if there are any insights you could give us on our noddy client VAG (which is largely test-oriented), that would be BRILL! -- http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Multi-Process_Client_VAG_--_draft
[10:23]	You: we won#t use xmlrpc anyway 	You: we won#t use xmlrpc anyway
[10:23]	Tree Kyomoon: 	thats why I just dont see this kind of implementation working well in practice
[10:24]	You: and we will use a completely different mechanism 	You: and we will use a completely different mechanism
[10:24]	Tree Kyomoon: 	a webservices/https/xml approach
[10:24]	You: e.g. we won't have a login server anymore 	You: e.g. we won't have a login server anymore
[10:24]	You: you really just send some params (basically username/pw) to the login server 	You: you really just send some params (basically username/pw) to the login server
[10:24]	You: and this answers you with the IP of the sim to use 	You: and this answers you with the IP of the sim to use
[10:24]	Zha Ewry: 	Err. Not any more, Tao.
[10:24]	You: see, old code :) 	You: see, old code :)
[10:24]	You: ok, then I have no idea 	You: ok, then I have no idea
[10:24]	You: and somebody should document it 	You: and somebody should document it
[10:25]	Zha Ewry: 	First, it's the name, not the IP
[10:25]	Tree Kyomoon: 	yes, login would be a lot more sophisticated than that I think
[10:25]	You: if it isn't 	You: if it isn't
[10:25]	Zha Ewry: 	and.. teh agent split comming up, is ging to include caps
[10:25]	Zha Ewry: 	and a bunch of new stuff
[10:25]	You: so how does the caps stuff work? 	You: so how does the caps stuff work?
[10:25]	You: I don't find that much information on the wiki 	You: I don't find that much information on the wiki
[10:25]	Tree Kyomoon: 	right so thousands of asciis going back and forth
[10:26]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	hey Fletcher
[10:26]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Thousands of asciis? What's that in units of Libraries of Congress?
[10:26]	Tree Kyomoon: 	the new SL grid will need fiber connections to work
[10:26]	Fletcher Pinion: 	hello, foks. thanks for the invite, saijani
[10:26]	Zha Ewry: 	HUh?
[10:26]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hi Fletcher
[10:26]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	think he was joking, Zha
[10:26]	Zha Ewry: 	Caps is about how you bind the endpoint
[10:26]	You: so we actually have some sample flow from Zero for Login 	You: so we actually have some sample flow from Zero for Login
[10:27]	You: so is there some example flow of how caps might work here? 	You: so is there some example flow of how caps might work here?
[10:27]	You: I need examples ;-) 	You: I need examples ;-)
[10:27]	You: in theory it's sort of clear to me but that does not really help ;-) 	You: in theory it's sort of clear to me but that does not really help ;-)
[10:27]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Tao: agreed. The only usage documentation is one with examples in it.
[10:28]	Morgaine Dinova: 	s/usage/usable/
[10:28]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	Right now, you send a cuple of dozen parameters as part of hte login process. Than you start requesting certain bits of info back based on what you sent in the login
[10:28]	Tree Kyomoon: 	im being extreme to make a point, we can put all the complexity we want in, but in the end it has to be lean and mean...which isnt something commitees tend to be very good at
[10:28]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	its all queued for you at login time
[10:29]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Tree: wrong
[10:29]	Zha Ewry: 	well, that varies, a lot
[10:29]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Tree: you've been on bad committees :-)
[10:29]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	and you just grab the chunks in order until the process of logging in is done
[10:29]	Tree Kyomoon: 	I didnt say 100% of committees, just a tendancy
[10:29]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	there's a LOT of extraneous chunkds
[10:30]	Fletcher Pinion: 	dumb question - does order matter?
[10:30]	Zha Ewry: 	Does it really send stuff, you dont need?
[10:30]	Deanfred Brandeis: 	If I'm not mistaken, the actual authentication part completes immediately, no?
[10:30]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	its stuff you need eventually, yes. But is it stuff you need in order to be "logged in?"
[10:30]	Tree Kyomoon: 	good luck folks, I must be off...sorry if ive been a pain in the butt...its my lack of padding.
[10:30]	Zha Ewry: 	No, not at all tree
[10:31]	Fletcher Pinion: 	heh
[10:31]	Zha Ewry: 	Good question all
[10:31]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	the login procedure sends a big chunk of parameters at one time. This queues them on the server side
[10:31]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Question for Lindes: (i) is the dev who coded the login part of client still at LL? (i) Can you ask him to liaise with us please?
[10:31]	Zha Ewry: 	and. Saij, if it is sending a bunch of stuff, early, than it is clealy going to be
[10:31]	You: ok, so do we use Zero's components he pointed out in the meeting for login? do we use his flow? 	You: ok, so do we use Zero's components he pointed out in the meeting for login? do we use his flow?
[10:31]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	Its more than just name/password. Its requrests for fundamental inventory info and so on that an avatar needs in the current situation
[10:32]	Zha Ewry: 	a problem, as we go forwaqrd, as Zero's rather expclitly, started to break it uyp a lot mote
[10:32]	You: like agent services, agent hosts and agent stores 	You: like agent services, agent hosts and agent stores
[10:32]	Zha Ewry: 	Yes, Tao, until we run into problems, I think we assume the LInden baseline design
[10:32]	You: ok, just wondering how much we assume from Lindens ;-) 	You: ok, just wondering how much we assume from Lindens ;-)
[10:32]	Zha Ewry: 	and.. that's the base transports, and components, until we show some issues
[10:32]	You: ok, so how would capabities work here? 	You: ok, so how would capabities work here?
[10:32]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	but it raises the question: what does it mean to be logged in?
[10:32]	Fletcher Pinion: 	so who you are, where you are - what's the minimum needed to render that?
[10:32]	Zha Ewry: 	Logged, in, I think, in the next iteratoin, means
[10:33]	Fletcher Pinion: 	assuming nothing is stored client-side?
[10:33]	You: I simply would say, the client send user/pw to some service which then sets up the agent host and returns some address of it 	You: I simply would say, the client send user/pw to some service which then sets up the agent host and returns some address of it
[10:33]	You: or name 	You: or name
[10:33]	Zha Ewry: 	nothing more thano n the agent server
[10:33]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	do we need the inventory tree structure in the inventory panel in order to be counted as "logged in?"
[10:33]	Zha Ewry: 	Not even rezed, not even in a sim
[10:33]	Zha Ewry: 	No, we don't saij
[10:33]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	do we need the UUIDs for the generic textures?
[10:33]	You: then we'd have a agent session on a agent host 	You: then we'd have a agent session on a agent host
[10:33]	Zha Ewry: 	because, Zero is very clear, Iought to be able to
[10:33]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	that's teh kind of stuff that is part of the log in right now
[10:33]	Zha Ewry: 	login in pure textmroe, send some IMs and log off
[10:33]	Zha Ewry: 	* text mode
[10:33]	Fletcher Pinion: 	generic textures would be resident int he client, I'd think
[10:33]	You: you first login into the agent domain anyway 	You: you first login into the agent domain anyway
[10:34]	You: after that you login to some region 	You: after that you login to some region
[10:34]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Never assume anything is stored client-side and authoritative, outside of current session's writes. At best, old data is a hint.
[10:34]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	the data is cached in the client, but the definition of that data (the UUID references) is apparently sent during login
[10:34]	You: so in fact you could be simply logged in as agent but aren't on a region and still can do IM and object transfers I'd think 	You: so in fact you could be simply logged in as agent but aren't on a region and still can do IM and object transfers I'd think
[10:34]	You: I'd think simply of URLs than of UUIDs 	You: I'd think simply of URLs than of UUIDs
[10:35]	Deanfred Brandeis: 	If we're thinking about functioning on an open grid, is it worth considering some open protocol like Kerberos for the authentication bit that can hand out tickets used to prove identity to any sim?
[10:35]	You: UUID might be part of it though 	You: UUID might be part of it though
[10:35]	Fletcher Pinion: 	logged in but not yet in-word? sort of like Customs?
[10:35]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	as is the tree structure of the folders in the inventory window, the buddies list, andvarious other things that may or may not make sense
[10:35]	You: sort of like IRC ;-) 	You: sort of like IRC ;-)
[10:35]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	with the new login procedure
[10:35]	Zha Ewry: 	In world, becomes very blury
[10:35]	Zha Ewry: 	which is good
[10:35]	You: so I'd rather start with a very basic login sequence and then see what's missing and what might be insecure 	You: so I'd rather start with a very basic login sequence and then see what's missing and what might be insecure
[10:35]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Deanfred: it's worth considering. But there is currently no working group on Identity.
[10:36]	Zha Ewry: 	OpenId.. keeps beeing mooted
[10:36]	Zha Ewry: 	But.. it isn't sufificient
[10:36]	You: I would start thinking without OpenID 	You: I would start thinking without OpenID
[10:36]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	like I said, it comes back to: what does it mean to be logged in?
[10:36]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	The current system assumes a lot of things that may or may not make sesne
[10:36]	You: then put it in later once we have a basic understanding of the basic principles 	You: then put it in later once we have a basic understanding of the basic principles
[10:36]	Deanfred Brandeis: 	I don't see a problem with OpenID myself.
[10:36]	You: maybe openid, maybe some more generic way of identifying people 	You: maybe openid, maybe some more generic way of identifying people
[10:36]	You: some might want to use iNames ;-) 	You: some might want to use iNames ;-)
[10:37]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	which is why I want working, coross platofrm code (like Tao's python login script which I don't want to rewrite if it works already)
[10:37]	You: this is where YADIS etc. comes into play 	You: this is where YADIS etc. comes into play
[10:37]	Fletcher Pinion: 	would an analogy help - flying internatinoal. you get off the plane. You clear customs with your baggage...
[10:37]	You: but I wouldn't want to think about this right now 	You: but I wouldn't want to think about this right now
[10:37]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	its probably only 20-30 lines total, but I have to do a lot of reading to get to write that 20-30 liens
[10:37]	You: so what is step 1 now? :-) client sends username/pw to agent domain probably, the question is where 	You: so what is step 1 now? :-) client sends username/pw to agent domain probably, the question is where
[10:38]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Fletcher: they you get a full body search at NYK ...
[10:38]	Fletcher Pinion: 	Margaine - that's your avatar rezzing
[10:38]	You: an agent domain might consist of multiple hosts 	You: an agent domain might consist of multiple hosts
[10:38]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	clinet sends username/pasword, platform, and requests for a whole slew of stuff
[10:38]	You: so we need to get the right one, I guess one of the agent services hosts 	You: so we need to get the right one, I guess one of the agent services hosts
[10:39]	Fletcher Pinion: 	do it like IP - keeps asking around untily you find the one with the info you weant?
[10:39]	You: actually it might also send somewhat more than just user/pw 	You: actually it might also send somewhat more than just user/pw
[10:39]	You: but for now it's all we need 	You: but for now it's all we need
[10:39]	Fletcher Pinion: 	Tao - such as last state?
[10:39]	Tillie Ariantho: 	Thanks Saij
[10:39]	You: such as what authentication mechanism it supports etc. 	You: such as what authentication mechanism it supports etc.
[10:39]	You: maybe we need some with more data 	You: maybe we need some with more data
[10:39]	You: or different 	You: or different
[10:39]	You: but that's for later 	You: but that's for later
[10:40]	Zha Ewry: 	The agent domain, ough to have a fron end that's nice and public
[10:40]	You: for now I think we want the agent domain to know that we want to login and get us some session 	You: for now I think we want the agent domain to know that we want to login and get us some session
[10:40]	Zha Ewry: 	if there is a re-direct, it happens in the caps reqwuest, I hope
[10:40]	You: so how is caps coming into play here now? 	You: so how is caps coming into play here now?
[10:40]	Morgaine Dinova: 	How about trying to narrow this down to 3-4 questions that Zha can ask Zero in a couple of hours at OH?
[10:40]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	see what I mean? extraneous stuff (maybe) but which?
[10:40]	Zha Ewry: 	Most of it
[10:40]	You: I don't think of that extra stuff right now ;-) 	You: I don't think of that extra stuff right now ;-)
[10:40]	Zha Ewry: 	When we get the next round of this, it really ough to be
[10:41]	Zha Ewry: 	"Here's my cred" "here's your cap"
[10:41]	Deanfred Brandeis: 	It seems like the caps stuff and agent data is a question beyond "login", i.e., authentication, even though it's part of the proces snow.
[10:41]	Zha Ewry: 	"Here's what i want to do" [Login, IM, inventory}
[10:41]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Shhhhh, no mention of "extraneous" ... that's Rob's work for anything he wants to delete.
[10:41]	You: so what is a cap? it's an URL I think 	You: so what is a cap? it's an URL I think
[10:41]	Zha Ewry: 	"here are theee more caps
[10:41]	Morgaine Dinova: 	word*
[10:41]	You: and is this my session URL I have to use from now on? 	You: and is this my session URL I have to use from now on?
[10:42]	You: ok, so I first ask for a caps URL for login and then I send my username/pw to that one? 	You: ok, so I first ask for a caps URL for login and then I send my username/pw to that one?
[10:42]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	right. IT seems to me, that anything a simple login script can just "eat" and ignore, could be counted as extraneous to the login itself
[10:42]	Zha Ewry: 	I actually think the first one, is a normal request, and you givo cap from here
[10:42]	Zha Ewry: 	But.. I amy be pushign it
[10:43]	You: but a caps is an URL, right? 	You: but a caps is an URL, right?
[10:43]	You: where I can send requests then 	You: where I can send requests then
[10:43]	Zha Ewry: 	A caps, is just a special URL, yes
[10:44]	You: I guess the first step can be without caps because it will be the same thing always anyway. After that I might get an URL for my session, like http://agenthost12522/<secretpart>/	You: I guess the first step can be without caps because it will be the same thing always anyway. After that I might get an URL for my session, like http://agenthost12522/<secretpart>/
[10:44]	Zha Ewry: 	But.. I think, the starrt of the chain, is a normal get
[10:44]	Zha Ewry: 	One normal login, and then.. it's caps, and pub/sub, all the rest of the way
[10:44]	You: pub/sub sounds like a lot of overhead ;-) 	You: pub/sub sounds like a lot of overhead ;-)
[10:44]	Zha Ewry: 	Pub sub, is what it does today
[10:45]	Zha Ewry: 	just nto explicitly
[10:45]	Zha Ewry: 	So, Subscribe to a sim, for a stream of object updates at your POV
[10:45]	You: so if I want to get my inventory, what do I do? I send another request for a caps URL and then I get the inventory from that? 	You: so if I want to get my inventory, what do I do? I send another request for a caps URL and then I get the inventory from that?
[10:45]	Zha Ewry: 	and, yes, exactly tao, and maybe several
[10:45]	Zha Ewry: 	Not reason to assume you inventory is all in one domain
[10:46]	You: ok, so for inventory I might get then http://agentstore1767162/<secretblurb>/Library/Objects/PartyHat 	You: ok, so for inventory I might get then http://agentstore1767162/<secretblurb>/Library/Objects/PartyHat
[10:46]	You: ok, but I need a starting point 	You: ok, but I need a starting point
[10:46]	Zha Ewry: 	Acutally, I think thrre is a UUID in there too
[10:46]	You: some index 	You: some index
[10:46]	Zha Ewry: 	And. yes, you do
[10:46]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I just looked at the REST services VAG, and there's no info on caps, not even an external reference. /me bops Zha on head :-)
[10:46]	Zha Ewry: 	You probably get that as part of the login
[10:46]	Zha Ewry sighs 	Zha Ewry sighs
[10:46]	You: ok, right, PartyHat might be a UUID 	You: ok, right, PartyHat might be a UUID
[10:46]	Zha Ewry: 	Yes, Morg
[10:46]	Zha Ewry: 	Well, as part of it
[10:46]	Zha Ewry: 	UUID as part of the URL< I think
[10:46]	You: I might request that from my session caps URL maybe 	You: I might request that from my session caps URL maybe
[10:47]	Zha Ewry: 	But. yes, you end up with abog standard URL, because we need that
[10:47]	You: http: 	//agenthost716176/<secret>/inventory
[10:47]	Zha Ewry: 	The question of how you get the inventory "root" as it were, needs to be pinned down
[10:47]	You: one might also think of requiring another caps url for it 	You: one might also think of requiring another caps url for it
[10:48]	You: but if we go on like that we actually double every request ,-) 	You: but if we go on like that we actually double every request ,-)
[10:48]	Fletcher Pinion: 	would your login somehow ID you have having your inventory in a particulat domain?
[10:48]	You: and I am not sure what capabilities are good for in here 	You: and I am not sure what capabilities are good for in here
[10:48]	You: all this stuff could be hidden inside the agenthost and if I am not allowed to do something it could tell me 	You: all this stuff could be hidden inside the agenthost and if I am not allowed to do something it could tell me
[10:48]	Zha Ewry: 	Caps are
[10:49]	Zha Ewry: 	a) security
[10:49]	Zha Ewry: 	(big deal)
[10:49]	Zha Ewry: 	and b) load balance
[10:49]	Deanfred Brandeis: 	looks like it gives caps in one go
[10:49]	Zha Ewry: 	well, the root, is tricky, right
[10:49]	You: ok, of course I don't want everybody to use http://agentstore1/TaoTakashi/Objects/supercoolobject 	You: ok, of course I don't want everybody to use http://agentstore1/TaoTakashi/Objects/supercoolobject
[10:49]	Zha Ewry: 	Becuase, you may have inventory in several domains
[10:50]	You: you are talking about linked agents? 	You: you are talking about linked agents?
[10:50]	Zha Ewry: 	No
[10:50]	You: see, there is where we think different ;-) 	You: see, there is where we think different ;-)
[10:50]	Zha Ewry: 	Just, I am Zha... which means I have Linden Suff, and IBM stuff, and it's on different
[10:50]	You: I'd like to have all my stuff for one agent in one domain 	You: I'd like to have all my stuff for one agent in one domain
[10:50]	Zha Ewry: 	asset fdomains
[10:50]	Zha Ewry: 	I want to be able to wear my hair, in both places
[10:51]	You: I still would think about this as linked agents 	You: I still would think about this as linked agents
[10:51]	You: might have the same name though 	You: might have the same name though
[10:52]	You: and linking could be done by OAuth or something similar maybe 	You: and linking could be done by OAuth or something similar maybe
[10:52]	Zha Ewry: 	Why? I want to be able to TP between the two, not log/on off
[10:52]	You: well, you can 	You: well, you can
[10:52]	You: because they are linked 	You: because they are linked
[10:52]	Zha Ewry: 	You can do either, but you want to make sure the messy case, multiple domains works
[10:52]	You: we might need to define what linked means 	You: we might need to define what linked means
[10:52]	Zha Ewry: 	Then. why two agents. Only one me
[10:52]	Fletcher Pinion: 	But you're rendered differently in two different worlds
[10:53]	You: I understood it differently in that first meeting 	You: I understood it differently in that first meeting
[10:53]	You: because otherwise why have 2 inventories? 	You: because otherwise why have 2 inventories?
[10:53]	Zha Ewry: 	if I have the same shape and assets, why would I be rendered differnetly?
[10:53]	You: login at the IBM domain and TP to the LL region domain 	You: login at the IBM domain and TP to the LL region domain
[10:53]	Fletcher Pinion: 	two different rendering engies
[10:53]	Fletcher Pinion: 	engines
[10:53]	Zha Ewry: 	And.. two inventories, because, the assets are held elsewhere
[10:53]	Groove Market: 	What is there to stop you having your stuff within a personal assetdomain? could be on your client if you had the bandwidth to let other domains query it, or it could be hosted somewhere within your control.
[10:53]	You: but why? 	You: but why?
[10:53]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Identify and avatar presence don't have to be 1:1 ... they just happen to be atm.
[10:54]	Fletcher Pinion: 	2 inventories - in SL, butterfly wings. In WoW, elfcleaver axes
[10:54]	Hypatia Callisto: 	I would think an asset is merely a reference in your inventory, so what's the trouble? Should fetch to whereever it points to
[10:54]	Zha Ewry: 	because
[10:54]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Identity*
[10:54]	Zha Ewry: 	the inventory, itself, is on an asset server somewhere
[10:54]	Zha Ewry: 	which may not always be accesible
[10:54]	You: I would think I have 1 identity but multiple agents for several grids (which even do not do be connected somehow) 	You: I would think I have 1 identity but multiple agents for several grids (which even do not do be connected somehow)
[10:54]	Zha Ewry: 	I think we need both cases
[10:54]	Zha Ewry: 	And several variations
[10:54]	Zha Ewry: 	Alts, multi-agent, and single uberagents, dependingo nhow people want it to work
[10:55]	You: that's why I have this on the domain where I login to as the other one might not be available ;-) 	You: that's why I have this on the domain where I login to as the other one might not be available ;-)
[10:55]	Morgaine Dinova: 	As Hyp says ... an inventory entry is just a link, it could be pointing to an item anywhere in the supergrid.
[10:55]	Zha Ewry: 	The design should alow all of them
[10:55]	You: I would be interested in use cases for those things 	You: I would be interested in use cases for those things
[10:55]	Hypatia Callisto: 	a personal asset domain may not be trusted on another grid, true
[10:55]	You: (like in the wiki) 	You: (like in the wiki)
[10:55]	Fletcher Pinion: 	soem folks might want one identity on multiple grids, other might have distinct personas on different grids
[10:55]	Zha Ewry: 	USe case,s good, yes
[10:56]	You: I'd think alts as linked agents 	You: I'd think alts as linked agents
[10:56]	Hypatia Callisto: 	but if its trusted by where you are, I see no reason why it should not be able to fetch
[10:56]	Zha Ewry: 	TYeah, it hnk so tao
[10:56]	You: they might even have the same openid they login with 	You: they might even have the same openid they login with
[10:56]	You: might be hidden though 	You: might be hidden though
[10:56]	Zha Ewry: 	Indeed, tho, we allow allthe cases
[10:56]	You: (if we go openid ;-) 	You: (if we go openid ;-)
[10:56]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Well we don't even have an Identity VAG, let alone use cases for it. Get cracking :-)
[10:56]	You: ok, but anyway, we were at login ;-) 	You: ok, but anyway, we were at login ;-)
[10:57]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Or Login VAG
[10:57]	Fletcher Pinion: 	is this a useful use case? - I have Firefox and IE open, both logged into Blackboard, one as a student,t he other as a n admin
[10:57]	You: and it always comes down to assets ;-) 	You: and it always comes down to assets ;-)
[10:57]	You: we maybe should tackle assets first ;-) 	You: we maybe should tackle assets first ;-)
[10:57]	You: ok, but for login we now have 1. client sends GET to agent service 	You: ok, but for login we now have 1. client sends GET to agent service
[10:57]	You: what does the GET contain? 	You: what does the GET contain?
[10:57]	You: well, what's the URL that is 	You: well, what's the URL that is
[10:58]	You: is it for getting the cap? 	You: is it for getting the cap?
[10:58]	Zha Ewry: 	I thin k you do a normal login, and then, you get caps after that.
[10:58]	Fletcher Pinion: 	deja vu...
[10:58]	You: ok, a login is a POST? 	You: ok, a login is a POST?
[10:58]	Zha Ewry: 	You may, pass in a list of the thingsou want to do
[10:58]	Zha Ewry: 	Zeor said as much
[10:59]	Zha Ewry: 	So, uid/pw {Inv, Presence, IM}
[10:59]	You: ok. 1. client POSTs to agent service authentication information plus a list of CAPS needed 	You: ok. 1. client POSTs to agent service authentication information plus a list of CAPS needed
[10:59]	Zha Ewry: 	posted to the public login URL, get back three caps
[10:59]	Fletcher Pinion: 	ok, dumb question - how much does the client know?
[10:59]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Tao: if you include av's and agents and presence and identity and regions under "assets" ... yes, it all comes down to assets :-) Everything should have an UUID anyway, so yes.
[10:59]	Zha Ewry: 	nothing
[10:59]	Zha Ewry: 	The client is assumed empty
[10:59]	You: I would rather talk about URLs instead about UUIDs ;-) 	You: I would rather talk about URLs instead about UUIDs ;-)
[10:59]	Zha Ewry: 	You give it your credentials,a nd let it goes
[10:59]	Zha Ewry: 	The UUIDs, are always in a URL, anyway, in this model
[11:00]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Tao: Zha provides a mapping
[11:00]	Zha Ewry: 	(You may have a tone of stuff cached, but the default is to work on a totally void client)
[11:00]	You: I agree regarding the client 	You: I agree regarding the client
[11:00]	You: as you want to use any client wherever you are 	You: as you want to use any client wherever you are
[11:00]	Fletcher Pinion: 	Zha - I see that as a goal, but we'd then be talking about a browser, right?
[11:00]	You: so state needs to be on the server anywa 	You: so state needs to be on the server anywa
[11:00]	You: y 	You: y
[11:00]	Zha Ewry: 	Zhactly Tao.
[11:01]	You: ok, so we POST login and caps request and then 2. agent service sends back what? multiple URLs via XML? 	You: ok, so we POST login and caps request and then 2. agent service sends back what? multiple URLs via XML?
[11:01]	Fletcher Pinion: 	rigfht now, the SL client knows a whole lot. But a browser is totally clueless about what it's getting into
[11:01]	Zha Ewry: 	LLSD, encoded as RUL
[11:01]	Zha Ewry: 	UML
[11:01]	Zha Ewry: 	CML
[11:01]	Zha Ewry: 	XML
[11:01]	Zha Ewry: 	sheesh
[11:01]	Zha Ewry: 	XML
[11:01]	Zha Ewry: 	LLSD encoded as XML
[11:01]	Fletcher Pinion: 	EIEIO...
 	[[User:[11:01] You|[11:01] You]]: 	:-)
[11:02]	Zha Ewry: 	sorry, been a long morning
[11:02]	You: ok, but in the end it contains the URL I guess :) 	You: ok, but in the end it contains the URL I guess :)
[11:02]	You: or URLs rather 	You: or URLs rather
[11:02]	Zha Ewry: 	So, you get back a set of caps, encoded as URLs int he end
[11:02]	You: after all the unpacking 	You: after all the unpacking
[11:02]	Zha Ewry: 	Aye
[11:02]	Zha Ewry: 	Hopefully, not too much unpacking
[11:02]	You: xmas time ;-) 	You: xmas time ;-)
[11:02]	You: Oh, mom, an URL!!! 	You: Oh, mom, an URL!!!
[11:02]	Morgaine Dinova: 	lol
[11:02]	Fletcher Pinion: 	just wat i've alwasy wanted
[11:02]	Zha Ewry: 	It is. totally
[11:02]	Zha Ewry: 	Web.
[11:03]	Morgaine Dinova: 	This URL is too small, can I get a refund?
[11:03]	You: ok, what we basically need then is some sort of agent host which holds the agent's session 	You: ok, what we basically need then is some sort of agent host which holds the agent's session
[11:03]	Zha Ewry: 	SL meets the web
[11:03]	Fletcher Pinion: 	it's... You!
[11:03]	Fletcher Pinion: 	quite literally
[11:03]	Zha Ewry: 	So.. the client, now, can do some fetches. depending on what it is tryign to do
[11:03]	You: so internally it needs to make sure there is one reserved 	You: so internally it needs to make sure there is one reserved
[11:03]	Zha Ewry: 	It may get my firnds list
[11:03]	You: well, we just finished login then 	You: well, we just finished login then
[11:03]	Zha Ewry: 	Maybe my stored IMs
[11:03]	Fletcher Pinion: 	need two boxes -one to just get started, one with the rest of the stuff
[11:03]	You: I guess we also want a login to a region ;-) 	You: I guess we also want a login to a region ;-)
[11:03]	Fletcher Pinion: 	the suitcase, and the moving van
[11:03]	Zha Ewry: 	It may start to r login to a region
[11:04]	Zha Ewry: 	It may not
[11:04]	You: so it might actually fetch the last location 	You: so it might actually fetch the last location
[11:04]	Zha Ewry: 	I may just pop on, get IMs which were stored up, and pop off
[11:04]	You: which is another caps? 	You: which is another caps?
[11:04]	Zha Ewry: 	That should work
[11:04]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Please folks write in up in REST VAG or some other.
[11:04]	You: of course, but let's assume we want to do a "full login" 	You: of course, but let's assume we want to do a "full login"
[11:05]	Zha Ewry: 	Yes, yes.
[11:05]	You: so it needs to fetch the name of the region first (or the client knows it because the user entered it) 	You: so it needs to fetch the name of the region first (or the client knows it because the user entered it)
[11:05]	Zha Ewry: 	So, full login, you either get handed the last location, as apart of login
[11:05]	Zha Ewry: 	or you ask for it
[11:05]	You: ok, another caps for asking? 	You: ok, another caps for asking?
[11:05]	Zha Ewry: 	And. you go to that region, get a cap
[11:05]	Fletcher Pinion: 	select from a maneu of currently avaialbae worlds
[11:05]	You: maybe it's simply some agent data caps 	You: maybe it's simply some agent data caps
[11:05]	You: you might need more info about yourself anyway 	You: you might need more info about yourself anyway
[11:05]	Zha Ewry: 	well, one interestign question, is whether you have a few agent domain basic caps for getting some things about the agent
[11:06]	Zha Ewry: 	ie. a cap for "My info" which does a bunch of htings like "Where is my ave"
[11:06]	Fletcher Pinion: 	the answer to that is the questino, what is the least common denominator for an av between worlds?
[11:06]	Zha Ewry: 	Well, for the AWG< we're currently assuming, roughly SL ish worlds, so.. it's an SL ave, rouhgly
[11:06]	Zha Ewry: 	Longer term, it's hopeless
[11:06]	You: Fletcher: 	right, but we might ask for maybe a caps for certain datasets which can be defined
[11:06]	Zha Ewry: 	It's a ame
[11:07]	You: for now I also would assume roughly SL 	You: for now I also would assume roughly SL
[11:07]	Zha Ewry: 	and you fetch the right set of objects for each domain
[11:07]	Zha Ewry: 	So, you get the flexi-mesh set for SL, and the enum for Wow.
[11:07]	You: longer term you might need different clients for different worlds anyway 	You: longer term you might need different clients for different worlds anyway
[11:07]	You: but you might be able to at least login to your agent and e.g. chat 	You: but you might be able to at least login to your agent and e.g. chat
[11:07]	You: but I would not start to think about it now 	You: but I would not start to think about it now
[11:08]	Fletcher Pinion: 	has a minimum set of affordances been set?
[11:08]	You: first get the login to an SL region finished ;-) 	You: first get the login to an SL region finished ;-)
[11:08]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Are caps all public for the asking?
[11:08]	Fletcher Pinion: 	I'd hope so - kind of a public API, right?
[11:08]	Zha Ewry: 	The list of them is
[11:08]	Morgaine Dinova: 	The API can be public without all the instances being
[11:08]	You: requesting further caps might need some identity information btw, so maybe get one initial caps for that 	You: requesting further caps might need some identity information btw, so maybe get one initial caps for that
[11:09]	Zha Ewry: 	Of course, you can only gets one you have perms to
[11:09]	Fletcher Pinion: 	right
[11:09]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Ok, so there's a perms system for caps. Is that worked out?
[11:09]	Zha Ewry: 	Not fully
[11:10]	Zha Ewry: 	Basically, tho, ou are going to need to have permis to get ones
[11:10]	You: ok, so we ask some agent data caps, like http://agentservice1762/<capsstuff>/lastlocation 	You: ok, so we ask some agent data caps, like http://agentservice1762/<capsstuff>/lastlocation
[11:10]	You: and it returns something we hopefully understand ;-) 	You: and it returns something we hopefully understand ;-)
[11:10]	You: which is maybe just the region name and coordinates 	You: which is maybe just the region name and coordinates
[11:11]	You: and then we need to get the right region host for that 	You: and then we need to get the right region host for that
[11:11]	You: so we ask the region domain service API 	You: so we ask the region domain service API
[11:11]	You: probably for another cap 	You: probably for another cap
[11:11]	You: or set of caps 	You: or set of caps
[11:11]	You: LocatorCap ;-) 	You: LocatorCap ;-)
[11:11]	Zha Ewry: 	I think there's one too many steps in there, but maybe not
[11:11]	Fletcher Pinion: 	another dumb question - have y'all looked at SCORM as a possible model for crafting interop specs?
[11:11]	Zha Ewry: 	I think.. that a region, is a stable URL
[11:12]	You: maybe the locator is public 	You: maybe the locator is public
[11:12]	You: ok, so we call it without a cap 	You: ok, so we call it without a cap
[11:12]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Fletcher: URL pls
[11:12]	Zha Ewry: 	In Web Service terms, it would be nice if it was
[11:12]	You: http: 	//regionservice/locations/Ahern
[11:12]	Zha Ewry: 	afk, 1 min
[11:12]	Zha Ewry: 	What we want, is to use caps, when they pay off, URLs, when they can be go
[11:13]	You: maybe you have hidden regions ;-) 	You: maybe you have hidden regions ;-)
[11:13]	Fletcher Pinion: 	Morg: http://www.adlnet.gov/
[11:13]	You: regions where no avatar ever has been 	You: regions where no avatar ever has been
[11:13]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Fletch: ta
[11:14]	You: when is Zero's OH again? 	You: when is Zero's OH again?
[11:14]	You: 1pm? or 12? 	You: 1pm? or 12?
[11:14]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	1PM SL time
[11:14]	You: ok, still maybe time for some shopping 	You: ok, still maybe time for some shopping
[11:14]	You: but only till 12 	You: but only till 12
[11:14]	You: I created that google code project 	You: I created that google code project
[11:14]	You: but it's still empty ;-) 	You: but it's still empty ;-)
[11:17]	Zha Ewry: 	back.
[11:17]	Zha Ewry: 	We at a pausing point?
[11:17]	Zha Ewry: 	And. did anyone get a full transcript?
[11:17]	Fletcher Pinion: 	waiting for you, it seemed ;-)
[11:17]	Zha Ewry: 	Heh
[11:17]	Zha Ewry: 	I am not all that compelling.
[11:18]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	seem to be?
[11:18]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	We need to set our agenda at Zero's.
[11:18]	You: http: 	//code.google.com/p/pysecondlife is my stuff now
[11:19]	You: in login/ you can find the login stuff which does not work anymore ;-) 	You: in login/ you can find the login stuff which does not work anymore ;-)
[11:20]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	wow that has radically changed it looks like
[11:20]	You: Well, as said, January 	You: Well, as said, January
[11:22]	You: well, we could go on with region login ;-) 	You: well, we could go on with region login ;-)
[11:22]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	wonder if the libsl stuff is doing more than it needs to. Itt SEEMED to be doing what the client does, so maybe its changed in the past 8 months or so
[11:22]	You: so we might get the name from some webservice, with or without caps 	You: so we might get the name from some webservice, with or without caps
[11:22]	Zha Ewry: 	maybe
[11:23]	You: maybe we also need to get the right region domain from the lastlocation service 	You: maybe we also need to get the right region domain from the lastlocation service
[11:23]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	your stuf is closer to a simple login than what LIBSL does now
[11:23]	You: so we probably have another parameter we get back 	You: so we probably have another parameter we get back
[11:23]	You: well, the login at least worked back then 	You: well, the login at least worked back then
[11:23]	You: it's not working anymore 	You: it's not working anymore
[11:23]	You: so it might be different now 	You: so it might be different now
[11:24]	You: need to look at libsl again 	You: need to look at libsl again
[11:24]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	hmmm...
[11:24]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	d = s.recv(4096) print d s.close() print "finished"
[11:24]	You: oh, and it's not too clean code ;-) 	You: oh, and it's not too clean code ;-)
[11:24]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	was 4096 a guess for how much you'd get back?
[11:24]	You: I just tried to get stuff done :) 	You: I just tried to get stuff done :)
[11:24]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	you might just be grabbing it all in one chunk.
[11:24]	You: yep 	You: yep
[11:24]	You: I have no idea why I put it there honestly 	You: I have no idea why I put it there honestly
[11:24]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	OR perhaps if its not specified, its not queued
[11:24]	You: it's been sometime 	You: it's been sometime
[11:25]	You: I just know it worked ;-) 	You: I just know it worked ;-)
[11:25]	You: actually I was more busy with doing the packet stuff 	You: actually I was more busy with doing the packet stuff
[11:25]	You: and parsing the message template etc. 	You: and parsing the message template etc.
[11:25]	You: this was all done in one weekend anyway 	You: this was all done in one weekend anyway
[11:25]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	which would make their login look more reasonable than what it seems to be. They already decouple it a bit, but then conflate it in the login loop
[11:26]	Zha Ewry: 	You would htink that woudl be broken out more
[11:26]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	which does everything in one simple 2000 line function
[11:26]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	its still simpler than the libsl/client login code
[11:27]	You: ok, so now that you have the name/ip of the region 	You: ok, so now that you have the name/ip of the region
[11:27]	Fletcher Pinion: 	"simplicate and add lighness" - Kelly Johnson
[11:27]	You: now the region might need to know whether you are allowed to be in there or not 	You: now the region might need to know whether you are allowed to be in there or not
[11:27]	Tao Takashi goes on with login ;-) 	Tao Takashi goes on with login ;-)
[11:27]	Zha Ewry: 	Well, one thing, that talkgin about this in public,a nd having to make sense of it does, is that we get to ask "why are we doing this now"
[11:27]	Zha Ewry: 	yes, good Tao
[11:27]	Zha Ewry: 	Who's capturing the xcript?
[11:27]	You: I emailed me the stuff since 10 lines ago 	You: I emailed me the stuff since 10 lines ago
[11:28]	You: I really need to make a webservice for capturing this ;-) 	You: I really need to make a webservice for capturing this ;-)
[11:28]	You: but I also really don't have time ;-9 	You: but I also really don't have time ;-9
[11:28]	You: anyway 	You: anyway
[11:28]	You: so if we don't bother about permissions now... 	You: so if we don't bother about permissions now...
[11:28]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	isn't there a script that does that already? In teh sample lib on the LSL wiki
[11:28]	You: now we have the IP 	You: now we have the IP
[11:28]	You: well, a URL 	You: well, a URL
[11:28]	You: which might be some caps 	You: which might be some caps
[11:29]	You: it probably is 	You: it probably is
[11:29]	You: so after getting the location we might need to filter this through some service which checks permission 	You: so after getting the location we might need to filter this through some service which checks permission
[11:29]	You: but then again we can put this into one step 	You: but then again we can put this into one step
[11:29]	Zha Ewry: 	Well.
[11:29]	Zha Ewry: 	either, when yo go to the region, and pas it some credential, it give syou a set of caps, or it says "Who the heck are you?"
[11:30]	Zha Ewry: 	One interestign question here. will be.. that.. you want a nice, secure, two way handshake on credentials
[11:30]	Zha Ewry: 	So..
[11:30]	Zha Ewry: 	Heh.
[11:30]	Zha Ewry: 	Watcht his for a moment
[11:30]	You: yes, we need to make sure security is right here 	You: yes, we need to make sure security is right here
[11:30]	You: so region domain and agent domain need to talk to each other 	You: so region domain and agent domain need to talk to each other
[11:30]	Zha Ewry: 	You get, from your agent domain, I think, a one time use cert
[11:31]	You: this was something in Zero's slides anyway 	You: this was something in Zero's slides anyway
[11:31]	Zha Ewry: 	That you use to say "I am Zha Ewry" but not give them a permannet key that says that
[11:31]	Zha Ewry: 	You take that to the sim, and say 'Here, I'm Zha, here's mey proof"
[11:31]	Zha Ewry: 	and it comes back and checks, based on your proof, and goes 'Oh, OK, here are some caps"
[11:32]	Zha Ewry: 	But.. YO need some way to provde you are talkign to a secure sim
[11:32]	You: we maybe first need to define some use cases for cases in which you maybe not allowed to connect or at least get a limited functionality 	You: we maybe first need to define some use cases for cases in which you maybe not allowed to connect or at least get a limited functionality
[11:32]	Zha Ewry: 	So.. you get from it, a one time cert too
[11:32]	Zha Ewry: 	and look at it, so validate
[11:32]	Zha Ewry: 	Got to be two ways, can't give you a public key you can re-use
[11:33]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Caps are unforgeable through being random session-only UUIDs or similar, hopefully, yeah?
[11:34]	Zha Ewry: 	caps, yes
[11:34]	Zha Ewry: 	https, and random uuid like key to them
[11:34]	Zha Ewry: 	so.. rhey are short term, and not forgable
[11:34]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Good
[11:34]	Zha Ewry: 	Zero.. has some clues ;-)
[11:35]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	could you give an example of the structure of a caps?
[11:35]	You: a caps is just a URL 	You: a caps is just a URL
[11:35]	You: an URL with a random part 	You: an URL with a random part
[11:35]	Zha Ewry: 	A on the fly, url, ending, in a random part
[11:35]	Morgaine Dinova: 	That makes them transferable during the session, which s great, whereas they wouldn't be if they were a secret in the login server.
[11:36]	Zha Ewry: 	right
[11:36]	Fletcher Pinion: 	sorry, RL called
[11:36]	Zha Ewry: 	So, 99.9 secure
[11:36]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	so you receve that caps thing and use it to request the action?
[11:36]	Zha Ewry: 	Not 100% secur,e but that's ok
[11:36]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	or data or whatever?
[11:36]	You: yes, the CAPS URL is what you use then 	You: yes, the CAPS URL is what you use then
[11:36]	Zha Ewry: 	Yep, the Cap, after that, is a bog standard endpont
[11:36]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Aye. If you want more security, make them longer, etc
[11:36]	You: ok. I gotta go now 	You: ok. I gotta go now
[11:37]	You: cya later at Zero's 	You: cya later at Zero's
Category: Grid Interoperability Chat Logs
Category: AW Groupies Transcripts