Viewer Evolution User Group/Archive/2011-05-27

08:03 	Oz Linden  	Hi everyone... sorry I'm late
  	Wolfpup  	hey Oz
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	good morning
  	Oz Linden  	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_Evolution_User_Group
  	Marianne McCann  	Hiya
08:04 	Oz Linden  	let's start with the New Issues (some of which we may have touched on before, but....)
08:05 	  	VWR-25321
  	JIRA-helper  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25321
VWR-25321 Make user aware of the "CTRL + Up/Down Arrow" feature (which scrolls back message history)
08:06 	TriloByte Zanzibar  	not a bad idea, maybe as a tooltip or something?
  	Oz Linden  	adding something to the existing chat entry bar tooltip would seem to be sufficient for this?
  	Jonathan  	Yes
08:07 	Wolfpup  	i wonder if the whipser is still active as well
  	Oz Linden  	we should probably add that same tooltip to the entry bar for p2p and group chat floaters
  	Jonathan  	The message might also mention using ctrl r and l to move around in the line
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	especially for group chat, that's where it's needed most IMO
  	Oz Linden  	I think whisper and shout still work, but forget how to whisper
08:08 	Wolfpup  	used to be shft+enter
  	Oz Linden  	doesn't need to be control; just left and right work
  	  	shouts: this is a whisper
  	  	nope
  	Wolfpup  	that was CTRL+enter
08:09 	Marianne McCann  	Only wayOnly way I know of activating shout is to actually type out "/whisper" and my text
  	  	(on V2)
  	Wolfpup  	whispers: hello
  	Oz Linden  	whispers: is this a whisper
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	don't forget actions
  	Oz Linden  	the shift-enter didn't work
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	tries not to forget
  	Marianne McCann  	(Kinda a clunky method, but it works)
  	Oz Linden  	raises his hand
  	  	/lh
08:10 	Wolfpup  	shift+enter works in the old code base
  	Oz Linden  	evidently that didn't make it (or this keyboard isn't compatible somehow)
  	Blondin  	shouts: test
  	  	:)
  	Wolfpup  	shift+enter dose not wqork for me either Oz
08:11 	TriloByte Zanzibar  	that might all be getting a bit too wordy for a tooltip, maybe a help menu item that lets you bring up a list of local chat, p2p, and group chat shortcuts/tips?
  	Marianne McCann  	Likewise. No go for shift enter on Mac
  	Oz Linden  	I'd be fine with adding to the tooltip for the up/down.... this seems like your kind of thing, Jonathan... want it?
  	Marianne McCann  	shouts: control enter
  	  	shouts: command enter
08:12 	Oz Linden  	there's a ? icon on the nearby chat floater
  	  	that should open a help page, but at the moment I'm running a project viewer on which it is not working
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	yeah, true, right now page not found for local chat
  	Oz Linden  	anyone running a released viewer?
  	Marianne McCann  	Yes...
08:13 	  	It tells you about the Nearby Chat floater, and how to get a more compact chat display
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	no ? on p2p
  	  	or on group chat
  	Oz Linden  	the p2p and group floaters should probably also get the help
08:14 	Jenova Spires  	I'm using Second Life 2.6.8 (230359) May 19 2011 16:28:57 (Second Life Release)
  	Oz Linden  	The way the help system works is that the help links go to pages that are generated from wiki text; it's quite a clever design in most ways
  	Jonathan  	Sorry Oz, I was afk, I will take that on
08:15 	Oz Linden  	it does have one minor flaw that we need to fix, which is that for it to work for any given viewer there's a link that has be manually created as part of releasing the viewer
  	  	which is why they don't work in development builds
08:16 	  	it allows different viewer versions to serve different help, but we should (and eventually will) fix it so that if the version is unknown you just get some default
08:17 	TriloByte Zanzibar  	it'd be brilliant if there were infinite resources to document everything :)
  	oobscure  	no meeting?
08:18 	  	nevermind
  	Marianne McCann  	Hm?
  	Oz Linden  	Thank you Jonathan.... next issue: VWR-25363
  	JIRA-helper  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25363
VWR-25363 Expose "Duplicate Object" feature in Viewer 2 (regression from 1.x)
08:19 	Wolfpup  	Oz yesterday I updated > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_2_Microsoft_Windows_Builds
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	I always just shift-clicked/dragged, who knew there was another way
  	Oz Linden  	Seems like adding a Duplicate entry to the Build menu
  	  	yes, shift-drag works
08:20 	  	but the menu item might not hurt either
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	totally
  	oobscure  	yup
  	  	ctrl D
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	especially if it lists the shortcut on the right side as reference
  	Marianne McCann  	Ya. Haven't sued duplicate in ages, but I see no trouble with it bein in there
  	  	used*
08:21 	Oz Linden  	there is one thing I found about shift-drag that I think is non-intuitive, but I suspect it's too late to change... the original is the one you move: the copy is the one that stays behind
  	oobscure  	it's about "discoverability".
  	Wolfpup  	unless im duplacting a whole build i normaly copy a prim useing th copy function in the tools floater
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	yeah, that drives me crazy Oz
  	Oz Linden  	the question I have is: where does the duplicate appear?
  	Jonathan  	What you shift-drag? The duplicate is left behind where the original was
  	Marianne McCann  	Ya, it's always been that way (the copy being the one you move)
  	Wolfpup  	it should actualy be the other way around
08:22 	Jonathan  	I don't think that's a viewer change
  	Marianne McCann  	er, original
  	Wolfpup  	i think you should actualy be 'pulling' the copy out of the orginal
  	Thickbrick Sleaford 	I'm guessing it was done that way because it can take a while for the sim to rez a new object, and for the viewer to know about it, so you'd end up dragging a non-existant object otherwise.
08:23 	Oz Linden  	I think leaving the original is more intuitive, but it may be that changing it would be more confusing than not... experienced builders expect it the way it is now
  	Jonathan  	wolfpup, you are operating on the original (moving it) and also leaving a copy behind, to that logic does make some sense, it is just not intuitive
  	Wolfpup  	true Jonathan
08:24 	oobscure  	btw, VWR-25363 is not about shift-drag
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	I agree it's counter-intuitive, but thick & jonathan have a point. plus I think it's too late to change
08:25 	Oz Linden  	anyway....the question is where the menu entry should go
  	oobscure  	for those interested about Discoverability: "All operations can be discovered by systematic exploration of menus" http://www.jnd.org/dn.mss/gestural_interfaces_a_step_backwards_in_usability_6.html
  	  	Build menu
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	build -> object submenu
  	  	since you're duplicating the object
08:26 	Oz Linden  	I think that makes sense
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	I'll also suggest that duplicate should be added to the context menu when selecting an object
  	  	perhaps under 'Take Copy'
08:27 	Oz Linden  	the context menu is already pretty long
  	oobscure  	not sure about that, personally. i'd keep that menu as short as possible
  	Oz Linden  	and that applies whether you're building or not... not really the same thing
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	good point, and 'power users' would likely already be aware of the shortcut
  	  	I take it back :)
08:28 	Oz Linden  	the fact that we have the existing keyboard shortcut means that there is already a (possibly hidden) menu item somewhere that does the correct action
  	  	that's how keyboard shortcuts are defined
08:29 	  	so implementing this should just be finding that entry and duplicating it as a visible one in the Build menu, then fixing it so that it is disabled when no object is selected
  	Thickbrick Sleaford 	Richard commented on that jira: "duplicate is in the hidden edit menu"
08:30 	Oz Linden  	ok, well I'm happy to have this done... and it's already marked as an open development candidate
  	Thickbrick Sleaford 	(in menu_edit.xml)
  	oobscure  	cool
  	  	sorry - I arrived late, there was a hug rainstorm here. can someone paste me in IM what has been said about ctrl+up/down arrows (if you had previously discussed that) ?
08:31 	Oz Linden  	we're going to add them to the tooltips
  	oobscure  	sounds cool
  	Oz Linden  	svc-2825
  	JIRA-helper  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2825
SVC-2825 New Feature -> Dialog -> Group Information -> Ban List
08:32 	Oz Linden  	Not really a viewer issue
  	Jonathan  	I like this idea, but the server people would have to implement their end first
  	Oz Linden  	I don't think that there are going to be any big changes around group management in the very near future
08:33 	  	the server devs are pretty busy with other things that have bigger effects on more people
08:34 	  	I'm going to take this off our watch list for now.... I do know that at some point the whole 'groups' idea will get a deep re-think, and this can certainly be added to that list
  	  	vwr-23783
  	JIRA-helper  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23783
VWR-23783 System Integration Settings
08:35 	Oz Linden  	there are a few sub-issues here
08:36 	Wolfpup  	that looks like some thing for the UI team to look at
  	Oz Linden  	I don't actually think that the umbrella issue serves any useful purpose
  	Wolfpup  	and i know they have a few things planed
08:37 	Oz Linden  	the UI folks are indeed very busy :-)
  	Jonathan  	I just read about growl the other day (VWR-23786) and that seems like it would be a massive project to implement
  	JIRA-helper  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23786
VWR-23786 Growl support for Mac OS X
08:38 	Wolfpup  	i know wolf had me send him a snapshot of how i have done the tabs in the side panel of my local builds
  	Oz Linden  	I'm going to promote each sub-issue here to it's own issue, and get rid of the umbrella. The small ones are not connected in any implementation way.
08:39 	Jonathan  	seems like VWR-23784 would be easy to renable
  	JIRA-helper  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23784
VWR-23784 [Viewer 2.0] Re-enable option for system colour-picker
  	Oz Linden  	any of them might be easy
  	Jonathan  	We can't tell if it was removed to declutter or because of some other issue
  	Marianne McCann  	Only way to enable it now is in the debug settings
08:40 	  	(I do enable it)
  	Oz Linden  	I don't know either... we'd need to test carefully on all platforms
  	Wolfpup  	useing the system color picker on windows 7 might be a little more dificult as it is different than on xp
  	Oz Linden  	are you on a Mac, Marianne?
  	Marianne McCann  	Yup.
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	ooh - how can I use the system color picker?
  	Marianne McCann  	Mac system color picker >> SL color picker
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	yes exactly
  	Jonathan  	If the color picker was going to come back what menu to put it in?
  	Thickbrick Sleaford 	It probably has the same problem as the file picker - the app is frozen while it's open (which BTW Aleric fixed in Singularity...)
  	Marianne McCann  	Debug Settings > UseSystemColorPicker (if I recall correctly)
08:41 	Wolfpup  	Jonathan it would be in the preferences
  	Oz Linden  	could be, Thickbrick
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	useDefaultColorPicker
  	Jonathan  	I see a debug setting UseDefaultColorPicker
  	Marianne McCann  	Ya, that
  	Jonathan  	<-just update the debug wiki page last week or so
08:42 	TriloByte Zanzibar  	thanks for the tip!
  	Oz Linden  	let's move on ... VWR-25824
  	JIRA-helper  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25824
VWR-25824 [Regression] Bulk uploads do not adhere to default permissions
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	and thanks for the update, jonathan, that's a great page
  	Jonathan  	TriloByte, I figured it was time for an update once the early mesh merge went through
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	Yeah, bulk upload perms got broken with the big mesh merge, that's going to hurt a lot of content creators
  	Thickbrick Sleaford 	(I just tested in a 1.x viewer, and it does freeze the whole app while it's open)
  	Oz Linden  	still busted, I gather.... I don't know whether anyone thinks this is on their list.
08:43 	TriloByte Zanzibar  	you don't get an error that says your permissions weren't applied, you only discover if you double-check every uload, or if you finish an item and transfer a copy and realize your item is useless
08:44 	Marianne McCann  	Ick!
  	Wolfpup  	that could be a server side bug
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	yes, a server-side bug that appears only in viewer versions that came after the mesh merge
08:45 	Oz Linden  	I'll see if I can escalate that a bit.... certainly should be fixed before we activate mesh, I think
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	still works properly in 2.6.8 and below
  	Oz Linden  	shouldn't be too hard to find, then
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	I noted the specific build number in the jira, I think
08:46 	Wolfpup  	it might be as simple as a data filed not being reconized
  	Oz Linden  	well, yes, but it was the mesh merge.... there were 2250 changesets in that merge
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	yeah, and everybody saying "don't worry, we'll fix it after" as they steamrolled it into viewer dev
  	  	:)
  	Oz Linden  	if that was the worst problem we'd introduced, things would be pretty good
08:47 	  	however, it should get looked at asap... I'll see what I can do
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	well there's that monstrous crash for mac users with ati graphics
  	Oz Linden  	yes... exactly, but I believe that a fix for that is on the way...
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	fortunately there's a fix for that one, just needs to be pulled into viewer-dev before another beta/release gets out
08:48 	Wolfpup  	on the subject of mesh impoerted to viewerdevelopment their needs to be a discussion about getting the stub into a functional OS version of llconvexdecomp
  	Oz Linden  	sh-1618
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	yeah, the fix for SH-1618 has been tested and works, just needs to be brought over
  	Jonathan  	[PUBLIC_JIRA_USERS] Lighting and shadows crash ATI macs
08:49 	Oz Linden  	that is being tested now along with some other high impact issues and will be merged as soon as the testing is done
08:50 	  	So... let's see about past things...
  	  	Windlight is making (slow) progress....
  	  	I'm running our review build now (and it's pretty gloomy here)
08:51 	TriloByte Zanzibar  	problems with the build?
  	Oz Linden  	media filter I'm going to work on today (try to unblock by fixing the unit test problem)
  	  	no, the windlight build is fine
  	Jonathan  	I think Oz means the scene is a dark one
08:52 	TriloByte Zanzibar  	ah ok :)
  	Oz Linden  	no, the windlight build is fineright
  	  	we can display region settings now, but the new settings editting dialogs are not working yet, so there's no way to change them
08:53 	  	I don't think thatere are any changes on any of the other items on our Ongoing list....
08:54 	Jonathan  	oz, vwr-24005 is a new one
  	JIRA-helper  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24005
VWR-24005 Accidentally logged out when trying to use media or volume controls
  	Jonathan  	I was hoping that might be taken before/at the same time as the draw distance slider change
  	Oz Linden  	oh yeah... skipped that... reading....
  	Jonathan  	(or else marked as won't finish)
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	a draw-distance slider, you say?
08:55 	Jonathan  	A few tpv changes are going to be brought in
  	  	(not the radar though)
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	I've been manually adding a slider to my viewer for a year now
  	Oz Linden  	I'm proposing that we add a draw-distance slider just like the global volume control (and right next to it)
08:56 	Marianne McCann  	That would be lovely
  	Oz Linden  	Want to try contributing that TriloByte?
  	Jonathan  	1) what do you think of vwr-24005 and 2) the draw distance slider would operate vertically to save UI space?
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	excellent idea, I think having that a bit easier to reach will also help reduce the # of crashes
08:57 	Oz Linden  	as for the window close problem... Mac users could have the same problem with the Me menu
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	sure, is there an issue to add it to, or want me to just shoot you the xml file via email?
  	Oz Linden  	I'll create an issue and send you a pointer
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	thanks
  	Jonathan  	trilobyte, what direction does the slider operate in? The one I saw a long time ago was horizontal, and not all of us have a wide screen
08:58 	Oz Linden  	I don't know if we can move things away from the corners to avoid window controls....
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	mine's horizontal
  	Marianne McCann  	I'd love a draw distance slider....
  	Oz Linden  	I want vertical - exactly like the volume slider
  	  	with the gear button at the bottom to open the Graphics preference tab
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	if we're going to be fixing accidental clicky buttons, how about that "?" menu above the notifications list? I'm constantly screwing up and clicking that one
08:59 	Jonathan  	Oz, here is how the vwr-24005 would look https://jira.secondlife.com/secure/attachment/46142/v2_status_bar.png
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	I'd prefer vertical too
  	Thickbrick Sleaford 	how about putting the slider on an accordion slide-out thingy?
  	Jonathan  	it is just swapping 2 existing elements in that bar
  	Oz Linden  	but we also have a request for something that clicks on the clock, JY
  	  	(show events happening now)
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	I'll see if I can make sense of the xml, perhaps its functionality can be stapled to a copy of the volume slider code?
09:00 	Oz Linden  	I looked at the code just this morning, and can send some pointers
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	(as a workaround, enabling 'shownetstats' moves the volume icon/slider to the left a bit
  	Marianne McCann  	(I but a small note to the click the clock JIRA last night, pointing to the events happening now in new search would be fab)
09:01 	TriloByte Zanzibar  	that would be great, marianne! nice 'discovery' tool IMO
  	Marianne McCann  	Ya. I'm very keen on that one
  	Oz Linden  	I'll bring up the accidental window close question with the UI folks
  	Jonathan  	I think we could swap those 2 elements and make some adjustments in the blank padding so the clock is not too far to the right
09:02 	TriloByte Zanzibar  	sounds excellent
  	Oz Linden  	I think the issue will be top bar space on smaller screens
  	Jonathan  	I have one of those smaller screens
09:03 	Oz Linden  	I need to prep for my scrum meeting folks... thank you all for coming
  	Jonathan  	thanks oz
  	Marianne McCann  	have fun, thanks!
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	should be okay, there's some gap to play with up there (I pop between 1024x768 and 1280x720 a lot)