Second Life Railroad/Rail Community/2011-06-10

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==Description==
This page contains the transcript and information about the the Rail Community meetings in SL from 2011-06-10
The meeting was hosted by the Beware Hax for the benefit of the SL Rail Community as a whole.
==Agenda==
# The universal height reference on rail track needs to be the top of the rails: because it's what the wheels of the train rest on. so it's the visually most fixed point. it's also the universal height reference of rails IRL. rail track may be embedded into a street, the depth of the track bed may vary.
# The height of the guide rail needs to be chosen to represent what exists so far: the height of the guide rail varies on the SLRR. variances cause sensor driven trains to float in the air, or to sink into the track. if the bottom of the guide rail is measured compared to the top of the rails (point 1), i've seen variances on the SLRR between being 0.04 m below, to 0.16 m above, but typically it's around level (0 m). the wiki currently defines the bottom of the guide rail as being 0.15 above the *track bed*. this is a standard that's not followed in SLRR construction. in new SLRR track (bay city) the guide rail is very low (0.07 m below), and it's 0.08 m above the track bed (street). this looks like a drift in the height of the guide rail: it's moving down over time.
# The height of overhead catenary wire needs to be defined more precisely, and needs to be committed to: according to the wiki it "should be about 6 meters above the track". i'm building overhead catenary on my own. needing something to go on, i interpreted this as: 6 meter above the top of the rails. i've also seen an electrical train on the marketplace, which was too big (both loading gauge and catenary height), and i asked the creator to make it conform to SLRR standards. the resulting train expects the catenary wire on 6 meter above the top of the rails. i'd like a clarification/more unambiguous definition, so that people can safely build to the standard.
==Attendees List==
*Beware Hax (beware.hax)
*Michael Linden (michael.linden)
*Perdita Muggins (perdita.muggins)
*Radioactive Rosca (radioactive.rosca)
*Stryker Jenkins (stryker.jenkins)
==Transcript for Friday June 10, 2011==
[13:31]	Beware Hax 	ok i made up some agenda points
[13:31]	Beware Hax 	both in text, and in visuals
[13:31]	Beware Hax 	gave you SLRR community meeting 2011-06-10 - agenda points.
''
[13:32]	Michael Linden 	It's still rezzing ... or whatever it's called for text.
[13:32]	Michael Linden 	there it it.
[13:32]	Beware Hax 	loading, perhaps
[13:32]	Beware Hax 	hi
[13:32]	Radioactive Rosca	hi
[13:33]	Radioactive Rosca	hi Beware, Hi Michael, hi Stryker
[13:33]	Stryker Jenkins 	Hi !
[13:33]	Stryker Jenkins 	Radio
[13:33]	Beware Hax 	radio?
[13:34]	Beware Hax 	i planned this meet on a way too short notice. i just started by asking michael if he could attend this friday. and he could
[13:34]	Beware Hax 	anything people isn't my strong point
[13:35]	Michael Linden 	I've only got about half an hour. But I think I can comment on some points right away:
[13:35]	Stryker Jenkins 	I would say go for it
[13:35]	Beware Hax 	yes
[13:36]	Michael Linden 	On agenda point 1: I certainl agree, not sure how it came to be from "roadbed".
[13:36]	Beware Hax 	for whoever is logging,
[13:36]	Beware Hax 	for clarity, i should paste the agenda point relevant
[13:36]	Beware Hax 	1: the universal height reference on rail track needs to be the top of the rails: because it's what the wheels of the train rest on. so it's the visually most fixed point. it's also the universal height reference of rails IRL. rail track may be embedded into a street, the depth of the track bed may vary.
[13:36]	Stryker Jenkins 	ah... well that had to do with the simple fact there was nothing else...
[13:37]	Radioactive Rosca	and that is compatible with the several tracks, from the LL ones to the ones made by several residents
[13:37]	Stryker Jenkins 	so it is a more or less arbitrary point we picked. Taking into account the minimum distance of 0.1 m needed for Physical trains
[13:38]	Michael Linden 	We changed the rail design, by the way: most of the older rail are simple textures prims; but much of the SLRR uses a set of sculpted rails.
[13:38]	Beware Hax 	im aware of that
[13:38]	Stryker Jenkins 	and we are talking about centimeters here. well within the tolerance of what is out there now
[13:38]	Beware Hax 	i wonder why someone with any affinity with rail (or so i hope) doesn't think of the top of the rails
[13:39]	Stryker Jenkins 	excuse me...
[13:39]	Beware Hax 	go on
[13:39]	Michael Linden 	(cough) the Lindens originally laying rail weren't rail enthusiasts! (cough)
[13:39]	Radioactive Rosca	lol
[13:40]	Beware Hax 	are plans to define the top of the rails as the height reference possible?
[13:40]	Beware Hax 	hi
[13:40]	Radioactive Rosca	i used at my railway station, a more sophisticated methode. Used the yellow loco from Stryker and adjusted the level of the guides
[13:40]	Radioactive Rosca	hi Perdita
[13:41]	Stryker Jenkins 	I am a bit confused... are point 1 and 2 of the agenda not the same?
[13:41]	Beware Hax 	i don't know about a yellow loco. i'd like to see that one. but using it as a reference assumes that that loco is a good reference
[13:41]	Beware Hax 	no, they're related however
[13:41]	Perdita Muggins 	hello, all :)
[13:41]	Beware Hax 	point 1: the top of the rails should be used as height reference. for really anything
[13:41]	Michael Linden 	Hello Perdita.
[13:42]	Beware Hax 	point 2: the height of the guide prims is a mess. and new definitions and builds have a significantly lower guide prim than old official and resident owned tracks
[13:42]	Beware Hax 	(i put up a lot of pictures of that)
[13:42]	Michael Linden 	In regards to point 2:
[13:42]	Stryker Jenkins 	ok...
[13:42]	Michael Linden 	Nobody, not even the SLRR, is required to use the standard.
[13:42]	Stryker Jenkins 	if you allow me I would like to read out a text we prepaired on the subject earlier
[13:42]	Michael Linden 	But if we have a standard, trains will tend to look better.
[13:42]	Michael Linden 	Sure, Stryker,.
[13:43]	Radioactive Rosca	concour, Michael
[13:43]	Stryker Jenkins 	may take some time... it's rather a long text
[13:43]	Stryker Jenkins 	Measurement of Distances between Guide Rail, Metal Rail and Trackbed by Stryker Jenkins VRC
[13:43]	Stryker Jenkins 	Spreadsheet of measurements (37 data points):
[13:43]	Stryker Jenkins 	https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AiwuVVCFoXq9dHN3VTBtbmpKczVFTHRlenNuTzhmRWc&hl=en_US&authkey=CIeR_pkH
[13:43]	Stryker Jenkins 	Image of SLRR tracks design accompanying the spread sheet:
[13:43]	Stryker Jenkins 	https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/14PFNAnYeEgnIrR18ce5Lq7CKK3O6PiH_UEYWwIeqhR0/edit?hl=en_US&authkey=CPmXl7UE
[13:43]	Stryker Jenkins 	that's just for reverence later
[13:44]	Stryker Jenkins 	The object of this discussion, if I read it right, is to come to a unified / fixed height between Guide and metal Rails. This is a purely theoretical exercise! The tracks in Second Life will probably not be changed. And even if they will be changed a greater accuracy when building is hard to accomplish due to multiple factors, like terrain undulation and the need to smooth the guide rail out as well as possible.
[13:44]	Beware Hax 	thanks for these measurements. this is what i need. it does agree with my own findings.
[13:44]	Stryker Jenkins 	The current SLRR tracks vary a lot when it comes to placement of the Guide rail vs. the Top of the metal Rails. The measurements taken clearly show that the average deviation between the bottom of the Guide rail and the top of the metal Rails is a mere + 0.024111 meters. In other words 2.4 centimeter. However the individual measurements show a much greater variation.
[13:45]	Stryker Jenkins 	Even the size of the primmed Rails and the sculpted metal Rails differs. A primmed rail is 0.198 meter high and the sculpted version only 0.140 meters.
[13:45]	Stryker Jenkins 	There is also the need of physical trains to consider. Apparently they need an additional clearance of 0.1 meter between them and the guide rail v.s. non-physical trains that do not need that.
[13:45]	Stryker Jenkins 	Changing sizes or heights at this point in time does not change the older trains that are out there. I.e., the ride height of those vehicles will stay the same. And therefore the look of the trains will not change. They are either a little bit too low or too high above the metal Rails.
[13:45]	Michael Linden 	And we may have "finer physics" someday.
[13:45]	Stryker Jenkins 	In my experience building tracks there is no real need to change the current height the guide rail set in the wiki. This is set at 0.15 meter above the trackbed / floor. Setting this to the top of the metal rails, i.e. 0.198 or 0.140 meters above the trackbed is only handy if you build the trackbed with metal Rails separate from the Guide rail. When you build them as a linked set and unlink them afterward you don't need to move any of the linked parts in a Z direction.
[13:46]	Radioactive Rosca	:-)
[13:46]	Stryker Jenkins 	In a few locations inworld the Guide rail is much higher than the average. This causes people to "trip" or get "stuck" when they try to walk over them.
[13:46]	Michael Linden 	Well, there are a lot of tracks without any trackbed.
[13:46]	Stryker Jenkins 	Trackbed or road surface
[13:46]	Michael Linden 	Along roads and streets, mostly.
[13:47]	Stryker Jenkins 	All this leads me to conclude that:
[13:47]	Stryker Jenkins 	1) there is no real need to change anything on the wiki page about SLRR standards.
[13:47]	Stryker Jenkins 	2) there is no real need (apart from in a few locations) to change the current SLRR tracks inworld.
[13:47]	Michael Linden 	On roads and streets, rail upper surface should be level with the pavement, more or less.
[13:47]	Stryker Jenkins 	3) this whole exercise is a waste of time.
[13:48]	Michael Linden 	heh, you're not the one who has 9 kilometers of track to look at!
[13:48]	Radioactive Rosca	eheheh
[13:48]	Stryker Jenkins 	4) if put simply the Guide bottom should be the same as the top of the metal rails... seen the small change that really is... I would have no problems with that on the wiki
[13:49]	Radioactive Rosca	but with clear rules, that's better for the residents.
[13:49]	Stryker Jenkins 	(not that it matters all that much anyway)
[13:49]	Beware Hax 	i'd like to see #4 done
[13:49]	Michael Linden 	I think Stryker's statement has a certain easy-to-comprehend value to it.
[13:49]	Radioactive Rosca	indeed
[13:49]	Beware Hax 	stryker's observations agree with mine. stryker's points #2 and #3 are only valid if you decide to not care.
[13:50]	Stryker Jenkins 	we ARE talking 2 centimeters here...
[13:50]	Radioactive Rosca	that's nothing
[13:50]	Stryker Jenkins 	90% of rail users will NOT notice it
[13:50]	Michael Linden 	I'll talk with the railway-oriented moles about track. For the Mainline, we'd probably have to look at an automated relaying system.
[13:50]	Michael Linden 	But we can still pretty easily fix the track in Bay City.
[13:50]	Beware Hax 	or give me a $1 contract, and i'll do it for you
[13:50]	Stryker Jenkins 	you not seriously considering changing the current SLRR track Michael?
[13:50]	Michael Linden 	Yeah ... not gonna happen, alas.
[13:51]	Michael Linden 	Not really on the Mainline, Stryker.
[13:51]	Michael Linden 	But if and when we build or rebuild any track, we're happy to watch the standards page.
[13:51]	Stryker Jenkins 	how ever... there are a few spot where the guide rail is so high they block people from walking over them
[13:52]	Beware Hax 	so can there be an agreement on point #4?
[13:52]	Michael Linden 	Oh, that reminds me: Bay City track has phantom Guides for now.
[13:52]	Stryker Jenkins 	lol... pushy...
[13:52]	Michael Linden 	Easily changed back if there's a howl of protest.
[13:52]	Radioactive Rosca	yep... and it's ok for several locos
[13:52]	Stryker Jenkins 	there will not be any protest ... atleast that's my thinking...
[13:52]	Stryker Jenkins 	because it's only on the wiki at this point in time
[13:53]	Michael Linden 	I have to say, on most curves and changes in grade, the Guide is not gonna be that close to the standard anyhow.
[13:53]	Radioactive Rosca	that's the tests i did for Sylvan Mole, Michael
[13:53]	Stryker Jenkins 	however... You may want to consider asking Sylvan to make a new standard track version for the mole mart Micheal
[13:53]	Michael Linden 	Cool, thanks. Have you passed this to Sylvan, too?
[13:53]	Michael Linden 	Good point, Stryker.
[13:53]	Radioactive Rosca	yes
[13:54]	Beware Hax 	ok i'd like to briefly bring up agenda point 3 before michael leaves
[13:54]	Beware Hax 	3: the height of overhead catenary wire needs to be defined more precisely, and needs to be committed to: according to the wiki it "should be about 6 meters above the track". i'm building overhead catenary on my own. needing something to go on, i interpreted this as: 6 meter above the top of the rails. i've also seen an electrical train on the marketplace, which was too big (both loading gauge and catenary height), and i asked the creator to make it conform to SLRR standards. the resulting train expects the catenary wire on 6 meter above the top of the rails. i'd like a clarification/more unambiguous definition, so that people can safely build to the standard.
[13:54]	Michael Linden 	So: underside of Guide to be, as closely as possible, level with the upper surface of the visible rails ... just to be clear.
[13:54]	Stryker Jenkins 	hmmm there is currently no height defined I think
[13:54]	Michael Linden 	Hmm.
[13:55]	Perdita Muggins 	that sounds good
[13:55]	Beware Hax 	michael: yes.
[13:55]	Michael Linden 	I don't currently expect any of the SLRR Mainline to provide catenary lines.
[13:55]	Beware Hax 	i don't, either
[13:55]	Stryker Jenkins 	well No Michael... according to Beware it should be "exact"
[13:55]	Beware Hax 	but i think it's good if there is a standard for builders to adhere to
[13:55]	Radioactive Rosca	too many prims, perhaps...
[13:55]	Michael Linden 	Not enough prims in many places.
[13:55]	Radioactive Rosca	yep
[13:55]	Beware Hax 	stryker: as close as possible. i like exact, but it has to be possible
[13:56]	Michael Linden 	Heh, and the standards for double-stacked containers conflict with the height for catenaries.
[13:56]	Michael Linden 	In real life, too.
[13:56]	Beware Hax 	true.
[13:56]	Michael Linden 	There's a reason not too many western US railways don't have catenary, heh.
[13:56]	Beware Hax 	in real life, there's variances in height due to double stacked containers.
[13:56]	Stryker Jenkins 	I like the idea on some location for a catenary... but not on the SLRR due to the fact it would interfear with the view of the camara when driving a train
[13:56]	Beware Hax 	im not asking for catenary to be placed anywhere. don't get me wrong.
[13:57]	Michael Linden 	Yah. I think we put a number in the wiki just as a "placeholder", more or less.
[13:57]	Beware Hax 	i'm asking for a defined height, so builders can build for that
[13:57]	Stryker Jenkins 	anyway... Michael has defined the Clearance on the wiki as 9 meter...
[13:57]	Stryker Jenkins 	I think that is a bit much for the current SLRR... I would stick to 7 meter...
[13:57]	Michael Linden 	We try to, Stryker! Heh, I'm not sure the whole Mainline has 9m clearance the whole length.
[13:57]	Beware Hax 	6 meter was stated for overhead wires, on the wiki, up to now
[13:57]	Stryker Jenkins 	again for the same "camara positioning" reason
[13:58]	Michael Linden 	Different real countries use different heights ... trolley vs. mainline, etc. ...
[13:58]	Beware Hax 	yes
[13:58]	Radioactive Rosca	yes
[13:58]	Michael Linden 	6 meters above the rail upper surface sounds "round" and easy to remember.
[13:58]	Beware Hax 	there's a variation on real railways between about 4.7 m and 5.7 m
[13:58]	Beware Hax 	then calculate SL scale
[13:58]	Stryker Jenkins 	SL is NOT RL
[13:58]	Beware Hax 	i know
[13:58]	Michael Linden 	A lot of SL content looks better done larger than RL.
[13:59]	Beware Hax 	things in SL are bigger than in RL. i know that
[13:59]	Michael Linden 	For interior spaces, I use 1.4 x larger.
[13:59]	Perdita Muggins 	bew likes standards and wants especialy for over head things, with the camera you don't want too much intereference
[14:00]	Radioactive Rosca	i only have 1 minute felf
[14:00]	Radioactive Rosca	left
[14:00]	Stryker Jenkins 	anyway... I think no addition definition for overhead line heights on the wiki is needed at this point in time because there are no plans, if I read it correctly, to implement it on the SLRR
[14:00]	Michael Linden 	I'm not committed to any particular catenary height, myself ... I don't know what current building/systems exist that we should accomodate.
[14:00]	Beware Hax 	but what about 3rd party builders, land owners, etc? aren't they allowed to interoperate on this?
[14:00]	Beware Hax 	i know about nothing existing, tbh
[14:00]	Michael Linden 	Hmm, important point: catenary systems should probably be phantom!
[14:01]	Beware Hax 	i went and took the standard i saw
[14:01]	Beware Hax 	yes they should be
[14:01]	Stryker Jenkins 	they can do what they like...
[14:01]	Beware Hax 	if people can do what they like, there can be no interoperation
[14:01]	Michael Linden 	the overhead line in Nova Albion is a huge physics problem.
[14:01]	Stryker Jenkins 	the Standards page was more a guide line than a rule book anyway
[14:02]	Beware Hax 	yes, it's a guide, in that violating it does not violate the TOS or anything, of course
[14:02]	Michael Linden 	Ah: let's say: phantom catenary lines will reduce problems with different build sizes.
[14:02]	Beware Hax 	but if there's a guide, people can build for it, and things can fit together
[14:02]	Michael Linden 	Plus: less physics = better.
[14:02]	Radioactive Rosca	and are less laggy
[14:02]	Michael Linden 	Hmm, is anyone getting crazy enough to want to build a catenary-tracking trolley pole?
[14:02]	Michael Linden 	Or: should the actual catenary current-carrying cable have a consistent name?
[14:02]	Beware Hax 	i think a standardized height would make life easier
[14:03]	Beware Hax 	there *is* a standard for that. a phantom prim with a standard name
[14:03]	Beware Hax 	so one *could* track it
[14:03]	Stryker Jenkins 	well lets set the height at 7 meter...
[14:03]	Michael Linden 	"Catenary" is at least a word that won't appear too often in other objects, heh.
[14:04]	Stryker Jenkins 	and call the wire... hemmm... Cantenary?
[14:04]	Michael Linden 	I have no objection to 7 meters.
[14:04]	Beware Hax 	so far,
[14:04]	Radioactive Rosca	i think it's more important to implement phantom guides at SLRR than the catenaries, but it's only my oppinion
[14:04]	Beware Hax 	there is a standard set name for the prims
[14:04]	Stryker Jenkins 	what are they?
[14:04]	Beware Hax 	"Catenary Wire"
[14:04]	Michael Linden 	Heh, fancy scissors-type overhead pickups can change their height to match the cable height!
[14:05]	Beware Hax 	they could perhaps be scripted to do so
[14:05]	Stryker Jenkins 	lol... I would prefer simple names... like "Wire"... but I don't care...
[14:05]	Beware Hax 	so, 6 m was made up earlier, and put in the wiki, but now considered to be too low?
[14:05]	Michael Linden 	It's all copied, so you don't have to type "catenary" too much.
[14:05]	Radioactive Rosca	ok, i've to go. Thanks for inviting me. Good conclusion and i hope to see you all at SL8B
[14:05]	Michael Linden 	Well, we could have two standards, aiee ... !
[14:05]	Stryker Jenkins 	Bye Bye!
[14:05]	Stryker Jenkins 	Radio
[14:05]	Michael Linden 	Later, Radioactive!
[14:05]	Radioactive Rosca	bye
[14:05]	Beware Hax 	i think 2 standards is a terrible idea
[14:06]	Stryker Jenkins 	thaks for joining
[14:06]	Beware Hax 	especially if they're 6 and 7 meter
[14:06]	Perdita Muggins 	byebyeradioactive
[14:06]	Beware Hax 	bye
[14:06]	Stryker Jenkins 	nope... I would suggest 7 meters now
[14:06]	Michael Linden 	Well, if you're all comfortable with 7 meters ... ?
[14:06]	Beware Hax 	i don't know. i really have no idea.
[14:07]	Beware Hax 	of course, i'm bothered by the fact that i asked someone to scale a train to 6 m
[14:07]	Beware Hax 	(that train is sitting here)
[14:07]	Perdita Muggins 	if htey can scale it once, they can scale it twice, bew
[14:07]	Beware Hax 	interestingly, i made up 7 m long before that wiki page existed
[14:08]	Beware Hax 	so, ok, 7 m. counting from the top of the metal rails
[14:08]	Michael Linden 	http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=136&t=45034
[14:08]	Michael Linden 	A discussion of double-stack trains in Europe.
[14:09]	Beware Hax 	IRL, in UK it's 4.7 m, in NL it's 5.5 m. those are the two extremes. so, 7 m sounds ok to me. i would not go higher.
[14:09]	Stryker Jenkins 	nah... the 9 meter clearance is a bit much... even for SL standards
[14:10]	Michael Linden 	7 meters it is! Go ahead and change the wiki ... I'll poke in and put my name in their somewhere, to make it more official.
[14:10]	Beware Hax 	double stack is not actually done in europe
[14:10]	Beware Hax 	ok.
[14:10]	Beware Hax 	then remove the 9 m
[14:10]	Stryker Jenkins 	but if we stick to 1 measurement that would make the reading of the wiki easier too.
[14:10]	Perdita Muggins 	yay
[14:10]	Beware Hax 	and just leave 7 m *and* say: from the top of the metal rails
[14:10]	Michael Linden 	Exactly the point of the forum, Beware.
[14:10]	Beware Hax 	and i'll ask that japanese creator to again change everything
[14:10]	Michael Linden 	Though someone might want to model a container yard, heh.
[14:10]	Beware Hax 	and perhaps throw with some lindens
[14:10]	Stryker Jenkins 	anyway... Beware... are you going to make the changes in the wiki or should I?
[14:11]	Beware Hax 	stryker: good question
[14:11]	Michael Linden 	I have to scuttle off to a Sekrit Projek meeting.
[14:11]	Beware Hax 	i can try to make the changes.
[14:11]	Beware Hax 	to be clear on what i would change:
[14:11]	Stryker Jenkins 	Bye Bye!
[14:11]	Stryker Jenkins 	enjoy Micheal...
[14:11]	Beware Hax 	thanks michael for being here
[14:11]	Michael Linden 	heh, we need committee/joint editing on wikis ...
[14:11]	Beware Hax 	1: the bottom of the guide rail is at the top of the metal rails
[14:11]	Michael Linden 	"We, the undersigned ... "
[14:11]	Perdita Muggins 	byebye Micheal :)
[14:11]	Beware Hax 	2: the overhead catenary wire is 7 meter above the top of the metal rails
[14:11]	Stryker Jenkins 	lol
[14:11]	Michael Linden 	Bye all!
[14:12]	Stryker Jenkins 	overall clearance (i.e. remove the 9 meter)
[14:12]	Beware Hax 	yes.
[14:12]	Perdita Muggins 	so, nothing can be built over the railroad tracks that is under 7 m, did I get that right ?
[14:13]	Stryker Jenkins 	anyway.... I will look at the wiki after your done editing with it... may tweak it a little bit for form... not content.
[14:13]	Beware Hax 	perdita: that is called loading gauge. and i think you're right
[14:13]	Beware Hax 	ok
[14:13]	Stryker Jenkins 	yeah... that's the point of setting the 7 meter
[14:13]	Perdita Muggins 	yay, that's great to know
[14:13]	Perdita Muggins 	pleased I came
[14:13]	Stryker Jenkins 	but building over the SLRR means building over LL land...
[14:13]	Stryker Jenkins 	so you need their permission
[14:14]	Beware Hax 	of course
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