Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.05.28

Simulator_User_Group
Prev 2013.05.21	Next 2013.06.04
== List of Speakers ==
Beware Hax 	Duckie Dickins 	Fenix Eldritch
Hitomi Tiponi 	Honza Noyes 	Inara Pey
Kadmon Wytchwood	Kallista Destiny	Kelly Linden
Kitto Flora 	Lucia Nightfire 	MB Robonaught
Minuet Voir 	Mona Eberhardt 	Motor Loon
Nalates Urriah 	Qie Niangao 	Rex Cronon
Simon Linden 	Sylvie Etoile 	Tankmaster Finesmith
Tiberious Neruda	 	
== Transcript ==
[12:03] Simon Linden: Hello everyone
[12:04] Inara Pey: Hey, Rex, Sylvie. Hi, Simon
[12:04] Nalates Urriah: Hi
[12:04] Rex Cronon: hello simon
[12:04] MB Robonaught: hi simon °?°
[12:04] Rex Cronon: him mona, inara
[12:04] Kallista Destiny: lols but you were not blinged for a long time
[12:04] Sylvie Etoile: Hi Simon!
[12:04] Kelly Linden: :)
[12:04] Kallista Destiny: is that a valid word, blinged?
[12:04] Rex Cronon: hello kelly
[12:04] Fenix Eldritch: I was gonna ask if Kelly forgot to take his Ruth pills... but that wouldn't explain the shoes...
[12:04] Sylvie Etoile: ..... and da Kellz!
[12:05] Simon Linden: I can get going with the release news ... we've shifted the usual schedule one day due to yesterday being a holiday in the USA
[12:06] Simon Linden: Tomorrow we'll update the main channel with the code that's on Magnum right now
[12:06] Simon Linden: On Thursday all of the RC channels will get an updated version of the interest list work that's on LeTigre now
[12:07] Simon Linden: The forum post is here : http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2013-05-27/td-p/2022367
[12:07] Simon Linden: Kelly or Baker - did either of you have annoucements or things to bring up?
[12:08] Rex Cronon: hello baker. so many people here. u r hard to see:)
[12:08] Simon Linden: I guess that's a "no" ... so the table's open for topics or questions
[12:08] Motor Loon: Can we have VWR-23809 or SCR-385 put on the dev's to-do list please? °?°
[12:09] Sylvie Etoile: Question please, is there an archive of these meetings as I missed the last two?
[12:09] Fenix Eldritch: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Server/Sim/Scripting_User_Group
[12:09] Kadmon Wytchwood: Question: A stated goal of the new JSON-related functionality is to make Second Life scripts work better with the web at large. JSON parsing combined with the ability to set headers like 'Authorization' in HTTP requests makes Second Life scripts good clients for all the JSON APIs out there with one exception. A lot, if not most JSON APIs are secured and most secured ones expect basic authentication or tokens via the aforementioned Authorization header which we can set. But, Second Life scripts lack any kind of permanent storage to remember tokens granted to them. Is it still not on the radar or impossible for individual scripts, or individual objects, to have a permanently stored string akin to their 'description' field specificly for use cases like this?
[12:10] Sylvie Etoile: That contains no 2013 transcripts Fenix?
[12:10] Fenix Eldritch: It does
[12:11] Tankmaster Finesmith: thats all of 2013 so far
[12:11] Fenix Eldritch: previous years are linked to off that page at the bottom too
[12:11] Kelly Linden: scripts rarely lose state, but I can understand the concern Kadmon.
[12:11] Tiberious Neruda: I have one... regarding the ll*AnimationOverride functions... is there any way acceptable to the server to create a 'null' animation so that certain states could be 'skipped'?
[12:12] Kelly Linden: It is interesting to think of in terms of limits like that - storing a few small strings is not as big a problem as the more general 'persistent storage' problem.
[12:12] Honza Noyes: What about writing notecards, Kelly?
[12:12] Kelly Linden: writing notecards isn't going to happen
[12:12] Kadmon Wytchwood: Really just 1 field, the size of the description field would be fine.
[12:13] MB Robonaught: just out of curiosity why not?
[12:13] Kelly Linden: Tiverious: I can't think of a good way off the top of my head, except to have a really short animation
[12:13] MB Robonaught: security or something?
[12:13] Kadmon Wytchwood: Presently the only work around is to use an object's description field...but that's misuse. Maybe it could be possible to write to and read from a scripts description field?
[12:13] Honza Noyes: It's probably because of the Asset Server.
[12:13] Kelly Linden: Notecards are write-once files, we are fine to create new ones at the rate that users operate but not at the rate a script would write to a notecard.
[12:13] Rex Cronon: it could be possible to save script state on a outside server
[12:14] Rex Cronon: not state .i mean data
[12:14] Mona Eberhardt: Kelly, regarding state storage, I think I can understand what Kadmon is getting at, although I may be mistaken. As it stands, a script does remember its previous state when the scripted prim rezzes if scripted accordingly, but this "memory" can be lost if the script is reset. Will there be a way for the settings that manipulating a scripted prim's options can create, in a way that is immune to a script reset, without the need for an external server?
[12:14] MB Robonaught: ahh ok thanks
[12:14] Honza Noyes: All in all, it would be great to get some sort of database like storage system for LSL, it could work like Object DNS as well.
[12:14] Qie Niangao: What about using full-alpha prim text? not sure how many chars that is, but probably no worse than the description field. And has the virtue of breaking any pre-existing hovertext. :p
[12:14] Mona Eberhardt: And perhaps data storage could be merged with my previous question too.
[12:15] Honza Noyes: There are services for this, like w-hat.com's httpdb, but it requires HTTP requests and is dependant on their servers.
[12:15] Honza Noyes: So maybe something like that embedded into LSL would be nice.
[12:16] Mona Eberhardt: I'm not sure I'd like to dabble with that particular group of people.
[12:16] Honza Noyes: That's exactly it.
[12:16] Qie Niangao: an official, supported, purely in-world ObjectDNS would be wonderful.
[12:17] Honza Noyes: exactly.
[12:18] Mona Eberhardt: Indeed.
[12:18] Simon Linden: hmmm ... those are interesting ideas but implementation isn't exactly simple
[12:18] Kadmon Wytchwood: I think a single string field that LSL can read and write to and not be tampered with otherwise in no-mod situations would be plenty. It'd make scripts viable as JSON clients and mappable to objects that exist in databases by being able to store the ID permanently.
[12:19] Mona Eberhardt: I understand that, Simon. I'm aware of the difficulties of introducing new features in a system, especially when important parts of it have to be worked on for these features to be added.
[12:19] Kadmon Wytchwood: Again..right now this is achieveable by using object's description fields. But it requires no-modding the prim itself, and in the past its broken things like SL search using the description fields for context.
[12:19] Kelly Linden: it is an interesting idea, but I'm not quite convinced that it is a necessity. There are other ways to store strings in an object and you can rely on a script not getting reset. Or you can bake keys into the script.
[12:20] MB Robonaught: can you give an example?
[12:20] Simon Linden: yeah, using the description field is hacky, I agree
[12:20] Mona Eberhardt: Bake keys into the script?
[12:20] Kadmon Wytchwood: But what if you need to change the keys...redistribute the script to everyone that has it? Then the suggestion becomes a way to auto-update scripts as easily as other JSON clients can be auto-updated.
[12:20] Kitto Flora: So why is it that on a prim we can permanently store a name, description, float text 9 sides of color and alpha data and a few more numbers in slice and cut percentage. All been there for ages. All work great as permanent storeage, are used all over SL... but they are tedious to use. YET it is claimed that writing to a thing like a note card is Soooo difficult to do?
[12:21] Kallista Destiny: Kitto, NC are expected to be write once items
[12:21] Honza Noyes: When you write a notecard, it creates a new version.
[12:21] Kitto Flora: No
[12:21] Honza Noyes: And the old still remains on the asset server.
[12:21] Rex Cronon: u know. the ll could create a new field for a object called data, that could store at least 4k:)
[12:21] Kallista Destiny: forever.
[12:21] Simon Linden: Mostly because of our massive, ancient, evolved but not highly evolved asset and database system, Kitto
[12:21] Kitto Flora: They were made that way - in a short-sted manner.
[12:21] Kelly Linden: Object fields are in memory data for an object
[12:22] Kelly Linden: They get written out as an asset when the object leaves the world (gets taken to inventory), and only then. Regardless of how many times the data is changed only this 1 asset is created.
[12:22] Mona Eberhardt: So, everytime a notecard is edited, the asset server is burdened with two notecards' load?
[12:22] Kitto Flora: OK - forget Notecards. A new object - A STORAGE Card. you can write and read it with strings.
[12:22] Lucia Nightfire: I'm still waiting on being able to pass a string through its own start param, lol.
[12:22] Honza Noyes: Simon, how is it with notecards, when you change something and save it, what happens to the old one? Is there any garbage collection?
[12:22] Kallista Destiny: basically writeable notecards would almost instaantly drag the assett servers to their knees.
[12:22] Kelly Linden: Kitto: it would be difficult to guarantee any more permanence on such an object than we already do for scripts.
[12:23] Kelly Linden: in which case, why not just make a memory storage script that you don't reset
[12:23] Kitto Flora: Forget script storage - PRIM storage
[12:23] Kitto Flora: Its as permanent as it gets
[12:23] Kitto Flora: works now
[12:23] Kelly Linden: prims don't need to store anything unless they have scripts
[12:23] Kadmon Wytchwood: What do you mean by that, kellz? The only way I know to permanently assure a string a script needs survives things like region resets is to either 1. Hardcore the string. 2. Use the object's description field.
[12:23] Honza Noyes: Storing sensitive information in prims can be really dangerous.
[12:23] Kadmon Wytchwood: Am I right in that?
[12:23] Kelly Linden: a region reset will not reset your script
[12:23] Kadmon Wytchwood: Ok, a manual reset.
[12:24] Kitto Flora: Honza - true... thats why Storage Cards would be an improvement
[12:24] Simon Linden: Garbage collection in the system is interesting, since you really have to ensure nothing else out in the world or asset system references an item before you get rid of it
[12:24] Kelly Linden: then don't do that kadmon?
[12:24] Honza Noyes: So you are saying there is something like that working?
[12:24] Rex Cronon: not being able to edit such a storage would a be bad:(
[12:24] MB Robonaught: forexample my cars use a notecard to save several vars which could be easier for the user if they didn't have to edit...wouldn't a card be better to supply our customers with?
[12:24] Kitto Flora: Prims store all the stuff you edit into them with the editor. No script used. You only NEED a script to read the data back out in a useful way.
[12:25] MB Robonaught: yes but it's very limited
[12:26] Kitto Flora: This black sphere is a permanet data store for up to 512 players in a game - stores all their data and where they are in the game. its equivalent to about 8k or RAM.
[12:27] Kitto Flora: If you turn on show transparent you can see the many little prims inside that hold the data
[12:27] Rex Cronon: u have created a monster kitto:)
[12:27] Kitto Flora: Yes rex - but it works
[12:27] MB Robonaught: yes but is we had 20 cars on the sim at once running that would eat up prims fast is all
[12:28] Rex Cronon: so u use, object name, obj desc, and textabove for each prim to store data?
[12:28] Kitto Flora: Yes Rex
[12:28] Motor Loon: I use primdesc and hidden hovertext in lots of my products to store data aswell... works fine
[12:28] Kitto Flora: and also all the floats and ints used in things like colors
[12:28] Kitto Flora: textures
[12:28] Kitto Flora: rotations
[12:29] Mona Eberhardt: so, for this to work properly, we'd need a different solution - like programs outside of SL create files to store certain data. I'm certainly not a programmer, but I remember that, in the linear algebra and numerical analysis classes, we were instructed to write programs that stored data in matrices within files that would be generated for that purpose. My guess is that something like this would be good for SL and it would be a good idea if it could be made so that it didn't clog the asset server with different versions of that file. Of course, I have extremely limited experience with programming, so...
[12:29] Kitto Flora: prims already permanently store masses of data in SL
[12:29] Kadmon Wytchwood: I've seen people use RGB values to hold IDs to use to query databases later on. Never reset a script is good advice, but realistically everyone works around the prospect of their script resetting and being broken.
[12:29] Kadmon Wytchwood: Because there's just 1 string or integer value they need that can survive being reset.
[12:30] Kitto Flora: If the script resets in this thing - it does nothing. The data is property of prims, NOT anything in a script
[12:30] Kadmon Wytchwood: But I'll continue working around it, just wanted to say there's an increased need now that JSON parsing is apart of LSL now.
[12:30] Simon Linden: That's really interesting, Kitto
[12:30] Mona Eberhardt: Kadmon and Motor, please pardon my completely beginner-like question, but up to how many different parameters can be stored in hidden hovertext?
[12:30] Rex Cronon: the thing is. sometimes the sim is rolled back. if that happens all data is lost:(
[12:31] Motor Loon: hovertext is a string... cant remember each prims max. chars in the string... but if you dont go nuts with it it should be fine.
[12:31] Fenix Eldritch: test color and alpha level
[12:31] Kallista Destiny: well all changes to the rollbak time
[12:31] Lucia Nightfire: you can't help server time loss, no matter what you do
[12:31] Kitto Flora: Point is that SL can already does masses of read/write permanent data storage, all be it in a very tedious way for general use. The idea that a more efficient tool could not be made is ... misplaced?
[12:31] Fenix Eldritch: *text I meant
[12:31] Rex Cronon: 1024 letters in textabove i think
[12:31] Tiberious Neruda: but in the case of a rollback, wouldn't the loss happen anyway?
[12:31] Mona Eberhardt: Thank you Rex.
[12:31] Lucia Nightfire: you have to use external means to get around any server tiem loss
[12:31] Motor Loon: Best storage media for larger data is still an offworld solution... I use that alot too, and works just fine. Just send the data to my MySQL database.
[12:32] Simon Linden: Yes, Tiberious - a region rollback would do that
[12:32] Kitto Flora: Yes - if theres a sim rollback you loose the recent data changes. What we do in a game is save a copy of the data store every few hours
[12:33] Rex Cronon: outside server kitto?
[12:33] Duckie Dickins: I think a lot of virtual pets use this method to assure no duplication of pets happen during a script update using an update item or when a pet is picked up and the sim rolled back so that asset is now both in world and in their inventory.. I never really understood why until I've had rezzed items in world that have been there for a prolong amount of time require a hard reset because the script state gets FUBAR across a sim restart, usually due to sim restart + server update.
[12:33] Kitto Flora: In fast in a month of running games on such stores we never had to do rollback. If we did we'd save the stor to inv. Roll back and rez the saved store.
[12:33] Beware Hax: unrelated issue: there is a problem where if an object sends rapid/many updates to change its appearance, such as a board game with many squares, viewers may drop updates so you don't see the new situation on the board correctly. viewers are affected differently - firestorm is affected, singularity is not really affected.
[12:33] Kitto Flora: We had crashes - that made such short roll back there was no serious impact
[12:34] Tiberious Neruda: speaking of animations... there is a bone referenced in avatar_lad.xml that I am unsure of the function of, besides being the parent for the Avatar Center attachment point. So what exactly is the function of the bone 'mRoot'? Can it be safely rotated or translated via edited animation, and precisely what happens if it is?
[12:34] Duckie Dickins: and if your pet got messed up, at the very least they could read the "serial number" of it from the object description
[12:35] Simon Linden: Beware ... if you're causing a lot of updates, they certainly can get lost or mixed up if there are network or other laggy issues. There has been a lot of work in the "interest list" lately and that is re-working the update system
[12:35] Beware Hax: why are viewers affected differently (some are, some aren't)
[12:35] Kitto Flora: Yes - reliability of update packets is poor
[12:35] Sylvie Etoile: Simon, I'm having increased problems with prims not rezzing until I right click on them
[12:36] MB Robonaught: same here
[12:36] Motor Loon: everybody does
[12:36] Mona Eberhardt: Agreed.
[12:36] Tiberious Neruda: yeah, that's getting really bad...
[12:36] Duckie Dickins: Someone said that was a viewer issue
[12:36] Simon Linden: I'm not sure ... that would point to a difference between the viewer code, so I'd guess the network code isn't behaving exactly the same
[12:36] Sylvie Etoile: ..........It's bad everywhere I go
[12:36] Kitto Flora: Weird - that 'cant see it' problem has been less for me the last couple of weeks.
[12:36] Hitomi Tiponi: I thought that was fixed in viewer 3.5.2
[12:36] Beware Hax: im sure this could all have been reliable by design if they had wanted that
[12:36] Kallista Destiny: Sylvie this is a knon problem the viewer and Servers interactinf badly
[12:37] Hitomi Tiponi: the problem still exists in older viewer bases like Firestorm
[12:37] Kallista Destiny: there are several wasy to get around it
[12:37] Beware Hax: is there some advice for me to make my scripted object less or not suspectible to this problem?
[12:37] Rex Cronon: i am having problems with objects not triggering the "moving_end" even, and others have problems with the changed event not being triggered:(
[12:37] Sylvie Etoile: Maybe but the problem seems to be getting worse to me
[12:37] Kitto Flora: Ah - client side problem. Guess Cool VL client has fixed it :)
[12:37] Simon Linden: There was an issue along those lines that the new interest list exposed ... in other words, making the simulator work better showed where the viewer was broken. I believe there was a fix in the viewer beta pipeline for that, but am not sure what's been released or not. I _think_ it still needs to get out
[12:38] Minuet Voir: Sylvie - toggle wireframe - quickest workaround for "missing prims"
[12:38] Mona Eberhardt: And I've also noticed another strange occurrence, besides the missing prims issue (and it's been going on for about two weeks now). When I tp in an area that has Linden homes, and things are still rezzing, clicking on a friend's door to open it does not animate the door, but instead lets me walk through the door that still appears closed.
[12:38] Beware Hax: kallista: what ways are there to get around it?
[12:38] Tiberious Neruda: doesn't just happen in Linden homes either
[12:38] Kallista Destiny: Actually it turns out that the problme has been there for a LONG time, but server side changes have 'irritated' it.
[12:39] Sylvie Etoile: Minuet, maybe, but it's become a real pain all over
[12:39] Minuet Voir: agrees with Kallista - always been there, but it exploded with the main channel roll out first week of April
[12:39] Simon Linden: If you do see things fine toggling wire-frame or right clicking, it shows that the viewer has that object data but is not drawing it correctly. I think there's an "invisible" bit or flag somewhere that is incorrect, but it's been a long weekend and memory is hazy
[12:39] Minuet Voir: fixes are coming Sylvie - V3 is better, FS will get it, interest list changes being rolled this week (crosses fingers)
[12:39] Kitto Flora: Mona - I'd guess that the packet telling your client that the door rotated has got lost in the general spam from the new sim. That's happening a lot. The physics knows it's 'open' so you can walk thru.
[12:39] Motor Loon: anyway, can we have VWR-23809 or SCR-385 put on the dev's to-do list please? °?°
[12:39] Kallista Destiny: work arounds (1) Go into and out of wireframe, (2)Toggle alpha channels (render alpha mask)
[12:40] Beware Hax: is "interest list" a server side change that will reduce or fix the glitches in affected viewers like firestorm?
[12:40] MB Robonaught: yes please on Loon's request °?°
[12:40] Kallista Destiny: and the alwaus usefle, right click where the prim is.
[12:41] Minuet Voir: you can toggle BS or AS too
[12:41] Minuet Voir: several work
[12:41] Fenix Eldritch: Random question to chew on: Could a variant of the navmesh be used to create a no-render-beyond-this-point barrier for particles? As a way to have rain-like particles that won't fall through prims into interiors? Highly specific, I know, but just wondering.
[12:41] Simon Linden: I read those Motor ... it sounds interesting but I'm not sure there's a big need that would get it pushed to the top of the "to do" lists anytime soon
[12:42] Kitto Flora: Mmm - or smoke coming up through a floor?
[12:42] Sylvie Etoile: .......... or particle griefing?
[12:42] Duckie Dickins: sounds like a load of extra math for the servers to handle
[12:42] Kitto Flora: particle clipping is a client-side thing
[12:42] Motor Loon: There's a big need Simon °?°
[12:42] Lucia Nightfire: I'm surprised link sounds hasn't already been done long ago, heh
[12:42] Simon Linden: Fenix - particle drawing is all done viewer-side, so it would have to be done there
[12:42] Mona Eberhardt: Sylvie, particles are handled by the clients. All you have to do is turn particles off and you're ready.
[12:42] Beware Hax: what should i do as the developer of the board game, regarding this lost updates problem
[12:43] Simon Linden: There isn't a real physics engine running inside the viewer so it would be a lot of work
[12:43] Sylvie Etoile: Not good enough to deal with particle bomb griefing, Mona
[12:43] Fenix Eldritch: Fair enough :)
[12:43] Rex Cronon: ask for confirmation beware
[12:43] Kitto Flora: Is there ever a situation where you WANT a particle to go through a solid looking prim?
[12:43] MB Robonaught: are there plans for any more items going server side then just server side baking?
[12:43] Beware Hax: ask for confirmation? explain
[12:43] Simon Linden: but having a physics engine in the viewer would be awesome ... there's a ton that could be done with that, but it would be a HUGE project
[12:44] Tiberious Neruda: could it possibly be done as a prim property?
[12:44] Beware Hax: how do i ask for confirmation?
[12:44] Fenix Eldritch: Invisiprims kinda do that
[12:44] Tiberious Neruda: like... "particles bounce off this object"?
[12:44] Rex Cronon: ask the user to confirm what it sees on the board
[12:44] Beware Hax: that is fussy/requires the user to care
[12:44] Mona Eberhardt: Sylvie, have you thought about turning object entry off for people who have no business mingling with things on your sim?
[12:44] Qie Niangao: Have you tried setting / clearing some invisible hovertext, Beware? That (sometimes?) forces a full object update that may cause the missing params to get through on the second try (but--be careful of frequent updates in general; they *kill* folks on limited bandwidth)
[12:44] Beware Hax: that is not an acceptable solution
[12:45] Simon Linden: Kitto - it always depends on the usage. I can imagine "spotlights" wanting particles to go through them (and while we're it it, change the brightness when the particle is within another...)
[12:45] Kitto Flora: Simon - yes ... more cases...
[12:45] Beware Hax: no i didnt try that. i don't see why it would cause a full re-update
[12:45] Rex Cronon: u can allow user to force an update manually
[12:45] Kitto Flora: STOP/BOUNCEOFF/CHANGE
[12:46] Sylvie Etoile: Simon, has any progress been made on (a) fixing the glitch that lets greifing objects stick on sim edges (b) the mute ability for prim emitters, (c) giving us better tools to deal with greifing, please?
[12:46] Kitto Flora: Needs another property on particles
[12:46] Beware Hax: i don't want to bother a user with manual special care. this problem was caused by broken client/server code
[12:46] Fenix Eldritch: That along with animated particles, Kitto :)
[12:46] Tiberious Neruda: at the moment, if you want particles that bounce on the 'ground', you need to rez a particle spawner that falls down and provides a floor for the 'bounce off Z height' effect
[12:46] Sylvie Etoile: Mona, that doesn't help when you have public access places like my airport and harbour
[12:47] Simon Linden: Sylvie - if you're still seeing objects stuck at edges that can avoid object returns, please file a BUG jira with the locations. I thought that was done and released
[12:47] Beware Hax: what is this "interest list" that was mentioned?
[12:47] Tiberious Neruda: Kitto: why not just allow "like a particle" as a rendering effect for prims/meshes?
[12:47] Mona Eberhardt: Sylvie, set an appropriate autoreturn time and Bob's your uncle.
[12:47] Simon Linden: Beware - it's the part of the simulator that determines what updates to send to each viewer
[12:47] Mona Eberhardt: Like things are on Blake Sea, for instance.
[12:47] Tiberious Neruda: you could make quite a few interesting effects like that
[12:47] Sylvie Etoile: Last time I asked, Simon, you said that fix wasn't out yet
[12:47] Beware Hax: is a server side change going to be made that will fix the glitches in affected viewers like firestorm?
[12:47] Kitto Flora: Tiber' Case prims withe meshes are totally different types of things to Particles.
[12:48] Kitto Flora: Particles are 'sprites'
[12:48] Simon Linden: one sec, I'll look....
[12:48] Lucia Nightfire: I haven't seen teh autoreturn failure thing in weeks
[12:48] Sylvie Etoile: No Mona, not with griefing emitters on neighbouring land
[12:48] Duckie Dickins: are they really on the edge or just ghosting? I've seen some ghosting of people flying airplanes across sim borders in the blake sea region. They are actually not in the sim and are several sims away but you see them stuck on the edge until you try to click them and then they magically disappear. They also don't have a mini map dot which is a good indicator of a ghosted pilot and plane. :)
[12:48] Lucia Nightfire: just the ususal stuck at no entry parcels
[12:48] Tiberious Neruda: but they're still geometry that always faces the camera
[12:49] Kitto Flora: As for objects stuck on edges of parcels - I've not seen that happen in Wengen-Grief-Land for 2 weeks or more. I'd call it fixed.
[12:49] Kitto Flora: Also while Wengen-Grief-Land is still crashed daily by griefers, it now does self-recover.
[12:49] Sylvie Etoile: Ok maybe it is fixed ......... I'll know when we have some more griefing lol
[12:49] Mona Eberhardt: Simon, now that you mentioned spotlights, I was wondering if it would be a good idea to upgrade the lighting system a bit. Right now, a light source creates a sphere of light. that has the exact same radius all over. Could the lighting system be upgraded - sometime later - to allow for this sphere to be shaped like a spherical prim can (for instance, radius X+/-, radius Y+/-, radius X+/- )
[12:50] Kitto Flora: and usually within 20 minutes
[12:50] Tiberious Neruda: look at this generator, Kitto, and view it in Wireframe, with Highlight Transparent
[12:50] Rex Cronon: now, there seems to be this new griefing mode where u can't rezz anything from inventory, and your attachments don't rezz and u can't attach them. others also don't see your attachments:(
[12:50] Tiberious Neruda: see those two red-lined triangles?
[12:50] Lucia Nightfire: Rex, mass sound spam or chat spam or sensor spam can block asset calls
[12:50] Kitto Flora: Oooh - directional light sources would be sooo noce. But - again thats client-side :}
[12:50] Beware Hax: will the interest list changes in the server code fix the updates problem?
[12:51] Fenix Eldritch: Mona, I thought we had something like that with the projector textures?
[12:51] Mona Eberhardt: radius Z+/- in the end of my previous question (typo).
[12:51] Tiberious Neruda: it's a two-triangle plane that's rendered as always facing the camera. What I'd like to be able to do is have this as a prim/mesh rendering property we could toggle
[12:51] Simon Linden: Mona .... I'm sure there are ways to add features like that, but I'm not a graphics guy so I can't say much. For something like that there are two sides : getting the rendering to look good (or to not look bad if you've turned it off) and all the settings and UI needed to set and save those values. Often that 2nd part is actually the hard one
[12:51] Rex Cronon: i understand lucia. sadlly because u can't rez from inventory u have a hard time finding who or what is doing it:(
[12:52] Mona Eberhardt: Fenix, does this require enabling sun/moon + projectors shadows?
[12:52] Lucia Nightfire: speaking of projected textures, when can we expect lsl backend on the lighting and materials changes
[12:52] Mona Eberhardt: ?
[12:52] Fenix Eldritch: maybe...? Haven't played with it in a while
[12:52] Simon Linden: I was referring to the spotlight shapes
[12:52] Kitto Flora: Tber' - that looks like a mesh sphere to me
[12:53] Mona Eberhardt: I understand, Simon. Nothing of that sort's going to be easy to implement, if it is ever implemented.
[12:53] Simon Linden: I thought the backend was done for materials and it was all viewer fixes at this time
[12:53] Lucia Nightfire: I've been wanting to amke a "projected digital clock" but can't w/o lsl functions
[12:53] Lucia Nightfire: unless I use more prims and overhead than I wnat, heh
[12:53] Tiberious Neruda: urgh... I crashes >.<
[12:53] Tiberious Neruda: crashed, even
[12:54] Duckie Dickins: :) I'd just be happy if legacy face lights wouldn't burn out my screen when I have the advance lighting turned on and render attached light sources enabled. :D But that's another client thing.......where's tank's...you here tanks? :D
[12:55] Lucia Nightfire: last minute question too: why was close range double click teleporting blocked at teh server recently?
[12:55] Tankmaster Finesmith: are you on ati?
[12:55] Qie Niangao: Lucy, you can actually do the projected digital clock thing, but it's a hideous kludge, shining uniform projected light through a cel-animated texture.
[12:55] Lucia Nightfire: >2 meter distance dctp is blocked at the server level
[12:55] Duckie Dickins: no..I'm using Nvidia.
[12:56] Mona Eberhardt: I use an ATI GPU.
[12:56] Simon Linden: I didn't know any of those rules changed, Lucy
[12:56] Lucia Nightfire: its on all channels now
[12:56] MB Robonaught: are there plans to move any more items server side then just server side baking? so we can plan ahead
[12:56] Tankmaster Finesmith: there was an issue with glow on some AMD drivers, but the latest 13.4 and 13.5 beta have fixed that
[12:57] Simon Linden: Nothing specific right now, MB ... we need to get that one out and working right first
[12:57] Mona Eberhardt: Can't use them - my GPU is no longer supported by them.
[12:57] MB Robonaught: thanks °?°
[12:57] Tankmaster Finesmith: it may be fixed in the 13.1 as well, i dont remember
[12:57] Tankmaster Finesmith: 13.1 was released for legacy GPUs as well
[12:57] Mona Eberhardt: Can't use that one, either. I can only go up to 12.6.
[12:58] Beware Hax: will the update viewer glitches be fixed in the short term by the interest list changes?
[12:58] Tankmaster Finesmith: are you using somthing older than a radeon 2000?
[12:59] Mona Eberhardt: Mobility Radeon HD4500.
[12:59] Tankmaster Finesmith: 13.1 will work for the 4500
[13:00] Mona Eberhardt: I'll have to try it again, then. But installing Catalyst drivers on Linux is an iffy procedure with often unpredictable results.
[13:00] Duckie Dickins: I would guess it's a bit of both server side interest list and viewer side behaving to get those update issues working again. I almost like how things were before interest lists....at least things would update reliably even though the server was working harder at it.
[13:00] Tiberious Neruda: so... was there any answer regarding my mRoot bone question?
[13:00] Simon Linden: I didn't see that one
[13:01] Beware Hax: i think they should probably have stayed with the old situation
[13:01] Tiberious Neruda: I'll reiterate quickly...
[13:01] Tankmaster Finesmith: there was a fix viewer side that went out recently that seems to help with prims not lodaing correctly
[13:01] Tankmaster Finesmith: but it doesnt help with non prim items
[13:01] Sylvie Etoile: I have a meeting admin question ........ would it be/is it possible to list agenda items in advance so we can be prepared please?
[13:01] Tiberious Neruda: 1) What does it do? 2) Can it be rotated or tanslated by an edited BVH animation, and what happens if it is?
[13:01] Minuet Voir: what Tank said - it's much improved :-)
[13:02] Duckie Dickins: You can add things to the agenda via the wiki page....or I know you can on maestro's group....not sure about tuesday's page.
[13:02] Beware Hax: what i am afraid of is SL not "allowing" me to make a board game. sorry, too many updates, you can't make it. it was possible in the past, it isn't anymore now
[13:03] Simon Linden: Tiberious - sorry, I'm clueless about that
[13:03] Tiberious Neruda: mmk
[13:03] Rex Cronon: is not like somebody will move a something on the board 10 times a sec. if is not that fast it should work
[13:03] Tiberious Neruda: worth asking about, heh
[13:03] Duckie Dickins: yeah it seems you can only edit the thursday meeting page to add items to the agenda that you might want to have covered.
[13:03] Simon Linden: Thanks everyone for coming today and the good chat
[13:03] Mona Eberhardt: Thank you Simon.
[13:03] Beware Hax: the problem is 10 boards all need to go back to their initial state at the same time (or in a timeframe of seconds)
[13:03] Sylvie Etoile: Thank you Simon, Baker and Kelly
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