Open Development User Group/Archive/2011-02-16

13:00 	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	howdy oz
  	Robin Cornelius  	wavwa
  	Yuzuru  	Hello Oz.
  	Office Orb  	mail_to set to oz@lindenlab.com
  	  	Start transcription to oz@lindenlab.com
  	  	Transcript will be sent to: oz@lindenlab.com
13:01 	Ash's Zidonuke  	heya all
13:02 	Oz Linden  	good turnout today... welcome all
  	Cummere Mayo  	hey oz
  	JayR Cela  	:_)
  	draconis.neurocam  	heya oz
13:03 	Oz Linden  	first item on the agena is the upcoming Autobuild/VS2010 work....
  	  	I just this moment sent a note to the mailing list... https://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/2011-February/005966.html
13:04 	Kadah  	In Voice?
  	Oz Linden  	I'll be following that up with pointers to other repos to track
  	  	I've been doing this meeting in chat....
  	Ash's Zidonuke  	Yeah o.o
  	Oz Linden  	but can hear voice :-0
13:05 	Kadah  	kk, Voice doesn't work well for me now anyway
  	Oz Linden  	So... not much more to say than what's in the email, but read it and send questions
  	  	if you are interested in helping with any of that let me know
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	anything we can do to help out?
  	Ash's Zidonuke  	is reading
  	Oz Linden  	testing Express, if you use it
13:06 	  	If you already have changes to support 2010 in any of the packages we build, please drop me a note with pointers
  	Kadah  	I have express on my win7 machine, but I was planning on nuking that comp
  	Jonathan  	Will there be an autobuild configured to use vs2010 and some instructions on what to put on the command line?
  	Oz Linden  	preferably to public hg repos
13:07 	  	yes... there's a repo with that now, but I'm going to fork it and send a pointer to my fork
  	draconis.neurocam  	will building the client without autobuild in the old way still be supported with the 2010 changes?
  	Oz Linden  	since that's the one I'll be merging into
  	  	no
13:08 	  	autobuild is going to be the one true way :-)
  	Ash's Zidonuke  	Eeep
  	draconis.neurocam  	i see
  	Oz Linden  	see the end of my email... if there are other ways you want to build, feel free
  	Kadah  	Will CG's buildscripts be updated for autobuild?
  	Oz Linden  	if they don't break our way, we may even take changes to support them
13:09 	  	they already have been
  	Kadah  	Yay.
  	Latif Khalifa  	develop.py has the advantage of making the build easier on machines with more than one VS installed without having to play with env vars
  	Oz Linden  	so ... life will probably be a bit more unstable than usual next week
13:10 	Latif Khalifa  	hopefully autobuiild can gain that feature too
  	Oz Linden  	The only way it's likely to gain that feature is, unfortunatley, if an open dev contributes it
  	  	but I'll be happy to sponsor a well thought-out solution
  	Tonya Souther  	or perhaps a separate autobuild environment setup script? that would be simple enough.
13:11 	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	another layer of abstraction? dunno
  	Oz Linden  	all LIndens have the same tools, so there's not much motivation in-house to do that work
  	Latif Khalifa  	so everybody who uses visual studio gets updated 2005 -> 2010 on the same day?
13:12 	Oz Linden  	doing an alternative configuration works, but because of the way it's organized, that will be an ongoing chore
  	  	well, in the same week or two, yeah
  	draconis.neurocam  	that sounds amazing, and scary at the same time
  	Oz Linden  	you don't need to be up to the same tools until you're ready to merge
13:13 	  	yes, a bit
  	Kadah  	The viewer should at least be a bit faster being compiled under 2010, I noticed a gain from 2005 to 2008 back with v1.2x
  	Oz Linden  	we'll see
  	Latif Khalifa  	good luck with the installer and c runtime
  	Oz Linden  	anyway... on to next item....
  	Noa Arrowsong  	hello everyone ㋡
  	Jonathan  	Say "me" if you are an Express user
  	Liny Odell  	the runtime i dont think will be much of a problem now, there is only one version of it sho far
13:14 	draconis.neurocam  	me
  	Oz Linden  	I have been too swamped to merge the temp fix for VWR-24487, but I'll do that ASAP
  	Office Orb  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24487
VWR-24487 llurlentry_stub.cpp:196: error: deprecated conversion from string constant to 'char*'
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	hi noa ;)
  	Noa Arrowsong  	tank °͜°
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	ok
  	Thickbrick Sleaford  	hopes it's not too much to ask LL to also move from GCC 4.1 to 4.5 while they're at it...
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	don't forget it'll have to be reverted before merging the real fix
  	Tonya Souther  	Thichbrick, note that OS X is still on gcc 4.2.
  	Oz Linden  	the real fix is getting the server team to give us new versions, properly updated for the const change whenever they change the template
13:15 	  	We're not going to change the tooling on other platoforms at the same time, but those are _much_ easier than changing windows
  	Liny Odell  	tonya, at least for .5, be glad .4 is droped
  	  	XD
  	Tonya Souther  	mrf.
13:16 	Oz Linden  	#3 on the agenda ... open-1
  	Office Orb  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-1
OPEN-1 autobuild requires custom configurations for use with Visual Studio Express
  	Kadah  	Almost anything is easier than windows.
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	:-P
  	Oz Linden  	the workaround is merged into my autobuild repo, and that may merge into viewer-development even before the weekend... we'll see about that
13:17 	  	open-4 is the only remaining blocker, and Merov is working on it
  	Office Orb  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-4
OPEN-4 As an Open Source Developer, I would like to use Fmod in the autobuild system if i have the needed files already
13:18 	Jonathan  	Oz, on open-1 I see both subtasks Reviewing
  	Oz Linden  	that's because I have not pulled them yet, but I will
  	Jonathan  	k, good news
13:19 	Thickbrick Sleaford  	open-4 is a double edged sword. Personally, I would like to never ever use FMod... (now it's back on by default)
  	Oz Linden  	well, but is there a solution to hand to replace it?
13:20 	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	On Linux, building with only OpenAL works fine
  	  	Not an option for Windows, I guess.
  	Tonya Souther  	Or OS X.
  	Oz Linden  	there you go
  	draconis.neurocam  	openal works on windows, just not as well from what i have seen
13:21 	Neal Kendrick  	omg its a bunneh hehe
  	Oz Linden  	at this point, any potential replacement would have to work better, not just as well
  	Liny Odell  	does it still have the error on windows that if sounds or the master volume is muted or at 0 it eats CPU/
  	draconis.neurocam  	i speak only from openal and 1.x experiance however
  	Oz Linden  	bird in the hand and all that
  	Jonathan  	Liny, I don't think so, I was working in that area last month
13:22 	Oz Linden  	Next item.... and here's a fun one ....
  	  	OPEN-11
  	Office Orb  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-11
OPEN-11 Change STANDALONE to something better.
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	Though maybe FMOD should default to OFF on Linux, like it used to. I currently see no reason to use it there.
  	Latif Khalifa  	fmod works much better at least on windows, any attempt to shoehorn something else would be detremental to viewer quality
13:23 	Oz Linden  	No comments?
  	Ash Weststar  	I have none so far.
  	Oz Linden  	Should I just close OPEN-11
  	Liny Odell  	sounds like a fun thing to do to get rid of confusion
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	Well, the name "standalone" is confusing at least.
  	Thickbrick Sleaford  	I think something like NO_PREBUILT_LIBS will be much more self explanatory
  	Liny Odell  	yea, as per the only comment, though it does have a good suggestion
  	  	yea
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	+Thickbrick
13:24 	Latif Khalifa  	syslibs/bundled_libs
  	Oz Linden  	Ok ... we've got a good sample group here... any suggested alternatives?
  	Ash's Zidonuke  	Nope
  	Tonya Souther  	BUILD_EVERYTHING
  	Ash's Zidonuke  	NO_PREBUILT_LIBS
  	Jonathan  	Let's not have NO in the name
  	Tonya Souther  	or BUILD_LIBRARIES_TOO
13:25 	Kadah  	Ditto on NO_PREBUILT_LIBS
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	Tonya, that's not what standalone currently does.
  	Ash Weststar  	BUILD_ALL_LIBS
  	Liny Odell  	well, they dont get build either way tonya, it just pics from either the LL built libs or the libs on your system
  	Ash's Zidonuke  	Aruging about a variable naming :>
  	Tonya Souther  	Then make it USE_SYSTEM_LIBS.
  	Jonathan  	LIB_SOURCE
  	draconis.neurocam  	NO_PREBUILT_LIBS sounds like it makes the most sense
  	Oz Linden  	I like affirmative names
  	Sunset Lane  	hi everyone
13:26 	Thickbrick Sleaford  	standalone on linux means "link dynamically to the system libs, in stead of dynamically to the downloaded prebuilt libs"
  	Noa Arrowsong  	hello sunset! °͜°
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	take_lots_of_time_building_everything
  	Neal Kendrick  	agrees with draconis
  	Oz Linden  	ok ... here's the assignment... by next week at this time, everyone read up on autobuild so you know how that relates to this
  	  	and then we make a final call at this meeting next week
  	Cummere Mayo  	use_system_libs seems to make a sense to me but im not a coder so eh
  	Oz Linden  	autobuild does let you install dependencies into your tree as source
13:27 	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	Maybe with autobuild it's time to retire the standalone/non-standalone concept entirely, not just the name.
  	Kadah  	SUPER_HARD_EXTRA_WORK_BUILD
  	Oz Linden  	may be
  	draconis.neurocam  	USE_GENTOO (joking)
  	Oz Linden  	discussion on the mailing list is welcome
  	Ash's Zidonuke  	lolol
13:28 	Oz Linden  	open-17
  	Liny Odell  	what if i use a different distro?
  	Office Orb  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-17
OPEN-17 64bit standalone build clients do not correctly upload textures with alpha
  	Liny Odell  	before i opend it, i had a guess of openjpeg
13:29 	  	as kdu isnt built for 64 bit
  	Ash Weststar  	Emerge is brought in by autobuild and sets up gentoo
  	Oz Linden  	OpenJPEG 1.4
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	lol @Ash
  	Ash Weststar  	(Couldn't resist, sorry)
13:30 	Oz Linden  	there is now an (empty) openjpeg repo on bitbucket
  	Tonya Souther  	Has anyone tried that one lately, Oz? I fought OpenJPEG alpha bugs for a month and fixed them by using gcc 4.2.
  	Oz Linden  	by friday, it will have the current version (1.3?)
  	  	and it will be set up to build w/ autobuild
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	LL uses 1.3, though latest stable is 1.4
13:31 	Robin Cornelius  	I fixed the openjpeg bug in openjpeg ages ago, 1.3 is buggy
  	Oz Linden  	we're not going to try to do the upgrade of openjpeg along with the tooling change
  	  	but...
  	Kadah  	1.4 went stable recently
  	Tonya Souther  	I'd be inclined to close that one unless it was reproduced on a current system.
  	Robin Cornelius  	good
  	Oz Linden  	as soon as that change is made, we can start treating that like anything else, and if someone wants to work out the changes, great
13:32 	  	In fact, if 1.4 needs additional changes to work well in SL viewers, we'll host those patches and do builds
  	Neal Kendrick  	why doesn't everyone continue using openjpeg? i find kdu to be a problem among viewer development....i geuss my opinion is if it's open source it should stay open source??
13:33 	Oz Linden  	because kdu is much faster and significantly more robust
  	Kadah  	OpenJPEG is slow, very, and unsable, very.
  	Tonya Souther  	Neal, there are some subtle texture issues in viewers using OpenJPEG 1.3 and 1.4 (on different textures), but the textures show up correctly on viewers using KDU.
  	draconis.neurocam  	no one wants to do pointer arithmatic edge case checking neal
  	Neal Kendrick  	yeah, but also dangerous at times. right?
  	Liny Odell  	and kdu is able to work around other bugs that openjpeg runs right into and then fails
13:34 	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	Well, the viewer started with libKakadu and OpenJPEG support was added. So it didn't become more closed than it has been.
13:35 	Tonya Souther  	and OpenJPEG is the red headed stepchild of the bunch, and so absent someone going through it with a fine tooth comb and adding sanity checking everywhere, it's not going to work as well as KDU
  	  	Never mind performance.
  	Oz Linden  	and if someone does, that's ok too
13:36 	draconis.neurocam  	im sure they would be loved if they did
  	Tonya Souther  	But that someone won't be LL.
  	Neal Kendrick  	yes, well my opinion is if you want it open source it shopuld stay open by using open sourced code...just can't see why anyone would want to pay for some ridiculous license for kdu...and put people at a trust risk again.
  	draconis.neurocam  	not just by slers
  	Oz Linden  	indeed
  	Liny Odell  	adds null pointer checks everywhere in openjpeg
  	  	lol
  	Mobi  	essentially - cos it's worth it :p
13:37 	Oz Linden  	with the new code structure, there's no need for a closed source wrapper around kdu itself (and we no longer have one)
  	  	that was the main risk, not kdu itself
  	Jessica Lyon  	^
  	Neal Kendrick  	well, kdu is still closed source right?
  	Tonya Souther  	Neal, we're between a rock and a hard place. The system only works correctly with KDU. But you're right, there are some lingering trust issues there. What should we do? Deliberately ship broken code? Stop all other development for a month while we go on a massive bug hunt in code we don't own? Or ship working code and accept that some folks aren't ging to trust it?
13:38 	Oz Linden  	yes, but kdu is also a substantial commercial entity that has a very great deal to loose should they be found to be bad actors
  	  	and our usage is very small potatoes for them
  	Jessica Lyon  	I believe Neals main concern is in the Phoenix Projects intention to use KDU on Firestorm.
  	Kadah  	LL is not NASA, lol
  	Oz Linden  	they make their real money selling to people doing CGI for movies
13:39 	Ash Weststar  	When it comes to a matter of trust, I couldn't audit the Second life sourcecode without spending some years on it and by thenm there would have been significant changes that would need to be audited all over again. The trust issue is a bit of an illusion in my opinion.
  	Neal Kendrick  	well for me trying to fix the bug is that much more fun. thats the idea of open development right? to try and keep building and fixing bugs you find? so i don't see what difference there would be with kdu on bug fixes...
  	Oz Linden  	The fact that we are so small and they have so much to loose makes it easier to trust them
  	Kadah  	KDU is still 5 times faster at least.
13:40 	Jessica Lyon  	Neals trust issue isn't with LL Oz.
  	Oz Linden  	If you're hungering for bugs to fix, I've got a list for you, Neal
  	Jessica Lyon  	it's with Firestorm
  	Oz Linden  	then he shouldn't run it
  	Neal Kendrick  	no, it's with kdu...and the ability it gives someone.
  	Jessica Lyon  	that's what I said lol
  	Thickbrick Sleaford  	neal, if you don't trust someone, don't use their binary releases. If you do use their binary releases, it really doesn't matter if they link a closed source library into it, it's still a binary release.
  	Oz Linden  	in any event, that's off topic here
  	Jessica Lyon  	just don't use it if you don't trust it
  	ƤìXεℒ  	You can do "that stuff" without KDU
13:41 	Kadah  	Next item?
  	Oz Linden  	Last item on our wiki list is the builds mailing list archive....
  	Ash Weststar  	Thickbrick, if I had the SL viewer sourcecode, it would still take me years to do ap roper audit of it. Compiling it myself wouldn't make mallicious code go away.
  	Oz Linden  	my fault... I keep forgetting to get that fixed.
  	  	I'll push it up the list
  	  	I've got a couple of mailing list chores to do....
13:42 	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	ok
  	  	no need to file a jira about that, I guess?
  	Oz Linden  	no... please don't ... I'll do it....
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	good :-)
  	Ash's Zidonuke  	Heheh
  	Thickbrick Sleaford  	Ash: many eyes, etc.
13:43 	draconis.neurocam  	is there a link to the autobuild documentation, or is that still being worked on?
  	Ash's Zidonuke  	Yeah
  	Oz Linden  	There's some on the wiki
  	Ash's Zidonuke  	Will the wiki build guides be updated?
  	Oz Linden  	needs work
  	Ash's Zidonuke  	needs some work
  	Oz Linden  	Yes, the build guides will be updated (most likey replaced)
13:44 	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	some info is at https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Autobuild , but probably not what you're looking for
  	Oz Linden  	I'll probably need some help with that
  	  	I expect the docs to get a little better during the hackathong
  	  	after the autobuild devs get asked the same question for the fifth time, they'll probably document it :-)
13:45 	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	lol
  	Ash's Zidonuke  	Heheh
  	draconis.neurocam  	one would hope heh
  	Oz Linden  	What do people think of putting questions in the talk pages of the docs?
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	better mail them to opensource-dev
13:46 	Oz Linden  	I have not used talk pages much....
  	Ash's Zidonuke  	teag
  	Jonathan  	I never think to look in a Talk page--they are not discoverable
  	draconis.neurocam  	i fear most people wont read them, i only got in the habit due to wikipedia editing
  	Kadah  	If someone reads them, sure
  	Toni Alatalo  	ah, good thing i checked the autobuild wiki page now -- untill now though you talked about the ancient gnu autobuild and wondered why all the fuss about it :)
13:47 	Ash Weststar  	Perhaps changes to talk pages can be notified on the mailing list?
  	Oz Linden  	I wasnt' thinking so much of putting them there except as a way of getting the page itself updated, not as a long term thing
  	Tonya Souther  	That kind of thing is why talk pages exist, but I gree: I wouldn't have thought of them either if I hadn't done Wikipedia.
  	draconis.neurocam  	ah like notes for what should be changed?
  	Oz Linden  	I don't know how to get anyone else notified of a page change ....
  	draconis.neurocam  	if someone wants to spend the tme
  	Oz Linden  	right now, if you edit those, I'll be notified, but I probably won't know any answers :-(
13:48 	Ash's Zidonuke  	Ohh Ohh
  	Oz Linden  	well, questions to the mailing list or the talk pages... either way, I'll make sure that someone sees them
  	Ash's Zidonuke  	Oz watch the page
  	  	and add email notifications
  	draconis.neurocam  	if you made it so other people were notified besides you, on the edit of them
  	Ash's Zidonuke  	:D
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	You can create a dummy user, have that user watch the autobuild wiki pages, and have his wiki settings set to email notification and his email address to the list address.
  	Oz Linden  	I do watch ... what I don't know how to do is make the autobuild devs watch :-)
13:49 	Ash Weststar  	Or setup a forwarding filter in your mail account
  	Ash's Zidonuke  	Manual database editing? :P
  	  	force watch them :D
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	lol
  	Oz Linden  	fortunately, I don't have the access for that
  	draconis.neurocam  	cron job with some checks and some email references, heh
  	Ash's Zidonuke  	I bet Soft could do it :o
  	  	:)
  	Oz Linden  	anything you've got root access to, you're responsible for :-)
  	Liny Odell  	what cant soft do
  	Latif Khalifa  	Zidonuke is in love lol
13:50 	Neal Kendrick  	yeah soft would probsbly be zido's pet if he had it his way lmao....
  	Ash Weststar  	>.>
13:51 	Latif Khalifa  	lol
  	draconis.neurocam  	i can hear his quack now
  	Neal Kendrick  	lulz!
  	Ash's Zidonuke  	Neal >.>
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	anywho...
  	Oz Linden  	Any other items to discuss today?
  	Neal Kendrick  	omg what did i do?
13:52 	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	just currious, any new features planed for 2.6?
  	Toni Alatalo  	i have only off-topic thoughts :)
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	or just mostly bug fixes
  	Kadah  	Whats for lunch?
  	Oz Linden  	2.6... there will be release notes out with the beta release soon
  	draconis.neurocam  	i wish all of you guys good luck in the hackathon
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	ok
  	Ash Weststar  	2.6.. We plan to have a plan!
  	Ash's Zidonuke  	Hahaha
  	Neal Kendrick  	see i think bug fixes should be a main concern..because 2.5 still seems to have alot.
13:53 	draconis.neurocam  	theres a lot of good things that have been fixed since 2.5
  	Oz Linden  	Oh... some stats to contratulate the open dev community with....
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	2.5 is the most stable v2 viewer so far, isnt it?
  	Kadah  	Fix VWR-23318
  	Office Orb  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23318
VWR-23318 Persistent Viewer 2 Framerate "Stutter"
  	Ash Weststar  	I <3 the web profiles in 2.5
  	Oz Linden  	almost 20%% of the committers in 2.5 were open source
  	Cummere Mayo  	wow
  	Kadah  	No, Ash, you 'like' web profiles >_>
  	Liny Odell  	yes, fix what kadah linked
13:54 	Oz Linden  	7.5%% of all commits were from them
  	Tonya Souther  	Ash, you and three others.
  	Jonathan  	Is that head count oz or by volume, or ?
  	Ash Weststar  	Oh that reminds me
  	  	likes random people now
  	Ash's Zidonuke  	Hehehe
  	Cummere Mayo  	...
  	  	stabs ash
  	Neal Kendrick  	yes, the web profiles are quite good...glad they used them...and have the security settings in there makes it more personalized...and customizeable...good for linden lab for doing that.
  	Kadah  	VWR-23318 is a stopper for me still, it makes the viewer unsutable for any use longer than short testing.
  	Ash's Zidonuke  	stabs Cummere :O
  	Oz Linden  	both numbers up from any previous release except 2.2 (which had a ton of old issues from many snowglobe revs pulled up into it)
13:55 	draconis.neurocam  	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-1001 is most likely related and just hit storm today
  	Office Orb  	STORM-1001 Viewer needlessly hits the "ObjectMedia" cap with thousands of requests
  	Oz Linden  	We're looking at 23318
  	Kadah  	\o/ Oz
13:56 	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	Oz, is the OH orb still physical?
  	Ash's Zidonuke  	acts like it
  	Kadah  	The whole "my fps is betweeen 0.25 and 40" is painfull
  	Oz Linden  	yup
13:57 	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	i implmented kitty's fix into FS today, havent nnoticed anything wrong so far
  	Oz Linden  	orb is physical... forget why I did that....
  	Tonya Souther  	builds a Firestorm with the submitted fix for STORM-1001 in it.
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	(for storm 1001)
  	Oz Linden  	but I"m going to get some improvements in on that soon....
  	Kadah  	What could be causing 23318 anyway? Its not fallowing hw or os.
  	Oz Linden  	going to enhance agenda management....
  	Cummere Mayo  	so wants the ui from firestorm in snowstorm
  	Ash's Zidonuke  	Oz, make the orb open source ;o
13:58 	Oz Linden  	I'll share the orb source....
  	  	no secrets in there....
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	cool
  	Ash's Zidonuke  	except on lindenrobot :p
  	Oz Linden  	maybe I'll put them in my new tools directory
  	Neal Kendrick  	yay oz xD
13:59 	Oz Linden  	welll, I'm going to get back to merging....
  	Jessica Lyon  	Thanks for the time Oz
  	Oz Linden  	thank you all for coming
  	Liny Odell  	have fun oz
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	thank you for updates
  	draconis.neurocam  	and ill get back to running what hits the autobuild servers
  	RedMokum Bravin  	Ciao
  	Neal Kendrick  	yw have fun oz :)
  	Toni Alatalo  	if off-topic is fine already, i have a proposal for viewer3 or viewer4 in 3 years, and it's not just fishful thinking 'cause it already works in our viewer :) .. dunno when / where would be good to talk about that
  	draconis.neurocam  	take care oz
  	Ash's Zidonuke  	very informative today Oz.
  	  	Thanks
  	Office Orb  	End transcription
  	Ash Weststar  	Have fun, Oz
  	Tonya Souther  	see ya, Oz.
  	Toni Alatalo  	i guess not now :p
  	Jessica Lyon  	what's that Python?