Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2014.07.22

Simulator_User_Group
Prev 2014.07.15	Next 2014.07.29
== List of Speakers ==
Bizi Pfeffer 	Charlie Navarathna	Duckie Dickins
Forum discussion 	Hexapoda 	Inara Pey
Jenna Felton 	MB Robonaught 	Oz Linden
Policy suggestions	Qie Niangao 	Rex Cronon
Simon Linden 	Visitor Detector 	
== Transcript ==
[12:02] Simon Linden: Happy Tuesday, everyone ... let's get started
[12:02] Simon Linden: There is a full set of server updates this week, as noted on the web site : http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2014-07-21/td-p/2782212
[12:03] User Group Visitor Detector: Bizi Pfeffer is at the user group
[12:03] Visitor Detector: Returning visitor to your land: Bizi Pfeffer
[12:03] Simon Linden: The main grid server update supports the new gaming regions that were recently announced
[12:03] Duckie Dickins: lol Seewo
[12:03] Seewo (siwo): o:)
[12:04] Simon Linden: Tomorrow all the RC channels get the same maintenance update that also has the gaming region support merged in
[12:04] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): LL is ready to make that bank, heh
[12:05] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): quickest feature roll out I've ever seen, heh
[12:05] Simon Linden: well, I think the motivations on this one are far more legal than financial ... but of course we'd love to see it be successful and popular and have tons of new people discover SL
[12:06] MB Robonaught: why does it cost $100 just to get an answer to a question?
[12:06] Queen Michelle George I (michellemarquise): Can I ask why changes for the games?
[12:06] User Group Visitor Detector: Sovereign Engineer is at the user group
[12:06] Visitor Detector: First time visitor to your land: Sovereign Engineer
[12:06] Duckie Dickins: I dunno if it will make much of a difference....gaming was already here...now it's just being shuffled to it's own area for legal purposes.
[12:07] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): @ 349 bucks a month, yay
[12:07] Seewo (siwo): or more likely once again get rid of some older residents...
[12:07] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): plus the liscenecing fees
[12:07] Simon Linden: I don't really have answers to those ... they're product policies that other people considered and made decisions for. I wasn't involved
[12:07] User Group Visitor Detector: TankMaster Finesmith is at the user group
[12:07] Visitor Detector: Returning visitor to your land: TankMaster Finesmith
[12:07] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith): what? you dont know everything?
[12:07] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith): :p
[12:08] Lex (lexbot.sinister): i don't get how it would do anything with making SL more popular. Gaming has been here all along, without the stra fee's and rules of unobtanium.
[12:08] Duckie Dickins: coders just code...and consume caffeine.
[12:08] User Group Visitor Detector: Inusaito Kanya is at the user group
[12:08] Visitor Detector: Returning visitor to your land: Inusaito Kanya
[12:08] Simon Linden: there's at least one forum discussion group where people are asking questions, and I know those get read by Lindens. As some have noted, Ebbe himself reads and comments on the web site. So that's the best place for feedback to the company on gaming questions
[12:08] User Group Visitor Detector: Ron Khondji is at the user group
[12:08] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): I know of one land owner that will have to sell half his sim because of that change, heh
[12:08] Visitor Detector: Returning visitor to your land: Ron Khondji
[12:08] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): because his games were paying the tier
[12:08] Queen Michelle George I (michellemarquise): ty
[12:10] MB Robonaught: I see the need for the policy but why hurt the lil guy that makes nothing off a buyin for a race?
[12:10] Simon Linden: Some links to study, if you want:
[12:10] Simon Linden: Skill gaming annoucement: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Featured-News/Coming-Soon-Skill-Gaming-in-Second-Life/ba-p/2771080
[12:10] FAQ: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Second_Life_Skill_Gaming_FAQ
[12:10] Wiki: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Second_Life_Skill_Gaming_Approved_Participants
[12:10] Gaming Policy : http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Second_Life_Skill_Gaming_Policy
[12:10] Policy suggestions: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Suggesting_a_policy_change
[12:10] Forum discussion: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/General-Discussion-Forum/Skill-Gaming-Policy-Thread/td-p/2771090
[12:10] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith): someon has mastered copy and paste i see :P
[12:10] Queen Michelle George I (michellemarquise): maybe because of scammers
[12:10] Jenna Felton: thank you Simon
[12:10] Lex (lexbot.sinister): Ebbe is all nice and good with replies, but what we would really need is to speak with the person responsible for the LL legalese.
[12:10] Simon Linden: lol Tank yes ... I suspected there might be some questions on this
[12:10] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith): hehe
[12:10] Queen Michelle George I (michellemarquise): Does Linden keep a database for that? or are people allowed to track IP addresses?
[12:11] Simon Linden: I understand Lex ... but I don't have a good answer or way to solve that problem. All I can do is pass along the info that people are interested and have detailed questions because you want to figure it out.
[12:11] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): I bet that db isn't even over a dozen people atm, heh
[12:11] Simon Linden: I will do that, but as an engineer that's the limit of what I can do
[12:12] Lex (lexbot.sinister): I know :/ It's kinda sad, there is just NO way to get in touch with the right person at the lab.
[12:12] Mona (mona.eberhardt): I think the Lab might need to hire new lawyers. :/
[12:12] Lex (lexbot.sinister): Agreed, Mona.
[12:13] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): liek theres no way to get in touch with someone that can answer governance questions, heh
[12:13] MB Robonaught: yea
[12:13] Duckie Dickins: Well I think the change is better than no gaming at all.
[12:13] Mona (mona.eberhardt): I mean, lawyers who have at least graduated from high school.
[12:13] Duckie Dickins: it would of been easier to just kill gaming but at least they're trying to keep it by putting in methods to comply with the law
[12:14] Lex (lexbot.sinister): Well anyhow, we can butthead that wall all we want, lets talk about something else :(
[12:14] Simon Linden: and Seewo - I know that's been around for a long time. Yes, it's still on our radar ... and has been discussed with the long list of other things we might do with SL. It's an interesting idea
[12:14] Queen Michelle George I (michellemarquise): from what I understand the law hasnt caught up with the technology and technology can be changed because of the law
[12:14] MB Robonaught: but will make a killing off the $100 fee Duckie :p
[12:14] Seewo (siwo): :)
[12:14] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): public sellign control will be addressed in SL2
[12:15] Mona (mona.eberhardt): Hi Oz.
[12:16] Aur'a Færs (inusaito.kanya): Hi Oz.
[12:16] Visitor Detector: Returning visitor to your land: Adamburp Adamczyk
[12:16] MB Robonaught: hi Oz
[12:16] Simon Linden: Hey Oz
[12:16] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell): Hello, Oz.
[12:16] Duckie Dickins: @MB I doubt that there are many people who will be filing that fee. I used to run zyngos as free to play but a daily prize for top score of the day instead of paying for ads. There's a lot of people like that who will just stop having the machines out is all...
[12:16] Oz Linden: hi
[12:16] User Group Visitor Detector: Adamburp Adamczyk is at the user group
[12:16] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): he came to teh last 4 I think
[12:16] Hexapoda: Do not say SL 2, it will be SL_platform 2
[12:16] Chucking Fatlag (whirly.fizzle): Heya oz
[12:16] Simon Linden: FWIW I'm hoping to do another group chat test on Thursday at the beta user group ... those have been really helpful with our development. The more people who can come, the better
[12:16] Duckie Dickins: SL Mark II
[12:17] Qie Niangao: Yay for better group chat.
[12:17] Simon Linden: The test is usually at the end, a little before 4:00 if we don't run out of other topics
[12:17] Lex (lexbot.sinister): Advertise your chat test on SLU and you'll have server full.
[12:17] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): many have those machines setup as free plays and they can't even do that now, the creators may have to make sole free play versions to get around the change
[12:17] Seewo (siwo): "third life"
[12:18] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith): now in 4D!
[12:18] Mona (mona.eberhardt): Any clarification on the impact of these changes on 'sploders?
[12:18] MB Robonaught: Will this SL ever migrate to a more modern programming language in order to deal with the memory issues of C++?
[12:18] Simon Linden: I've been sticking with "The New Thing" ... I really wish we had some kind of name for that :P
[12:18] Chucking Fatlag (whirly.fizzle): SL:TNG seems to be the fave name atm
[12:18] CmdrCupcake (sovereign.engineer): Everything has memory issues.
[12:18] CmdrCupcake (sovereign.engineer): :P
[12:18] Lex (lexbot.sinister): It's just sad that basically ALL older machines that had an option of payment will have to go away permanently. And those won't be recreated. So much for not intentionally breaking older, but well-functioning content.
[12:18] Simon Linden: that works
[12:19] Oscitancy: I have memory issues :-/
[12:19] MB Robonaught: C++ has no automatic garbage collection
[12:19] Lex (lexbot.sinister): The Next Grid?
[12:19] CmdrCupcake (sovereign.engineer): automatic garbage collection is gross.
[12:19] Simon Linden: Sorry Mona I don't have an answer ... but I'm really curious myself where 'sploders stand. They're one of the things that can make SL fun
[12:19] Duckie Dickins: Grid 2.0
[12:19] CmdrCupcake (sovereign.engineer): :P
[12:19] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith): i have issues also, i just cant remember what they are
[12:19] Aur'a Færs (inusaito.kanya): Automatic garbage collection is a sin
[12:19] Mona (mona.eberhardt): How about Assembly, MB?
[12:19] User Group Visitor Detector: Rex Cronon is at the user group
[12:19] Hexapoda: How to do if I want to Alpha/Beta test a brand new world?
[12:20] Simon Linden: MB - TNG's scripting will not be the same as Second Life's :)
[12:20] CmdrCupcake (sovereign.engineer): If you're ever trying to write high performance C# doing anything to ever trigger a garbage collection cycle is a sin.
[12:20] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith): not for at least a year
[12:20] Seewo (siwo): the new world will test you!
[12:20] Lex (lexbot.sinister): You teleport into the inside of Ebbes head.
[12:20] MB Robonaught: thanks simon °?°
[12:20] Aur'a Færs (inusaito.kanya): Will there be a way to easily port scripts to the new platform?
[12:21] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): lol, c/p save
[12:21] MB Robonaught: pfft CC :p
[12:21] Duckie Dickins: 2.0 better rock or Mivvo will be serious competition.
[12:21] Simon Linden: with a little bit of re-edit and debug, sure :)
[12:21] Rex Cronon: greetings everybody
[12:21] Queen Michelle George I (michellemarquise): hi
[12:22] Duckie Dickins: they're already promising custom skeletons for your mesh rigs.
[12:22] Rex Cronon: :)
[12:22] Hexapoda: Call it 1.23, when SL come to 2.0 I want it to be a holodeck.
[12:22] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith): they said that?
[12:22] Duckie Dickins: yup
[12:22] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith): where?
[12:22] Duckie Dickins: mivvo forums
[12:22] Rex Cronon: i guess the code for animating skeletons will be interesting if written in lsls:)
[12:22] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): I want rigged mesh to work as an NPC w/o the need for explicit scripted agent, lol
[12:22] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith): dont suppose you have a link?
[12:22] Duckie Dickins: they're going to be using C# for scripting
[12:23] Queen Michelle George I (michellemarquise): sorry keep lagging
[12:23] MB Robonaught: yay!!!!
[12:23] Mona (mona.eberhardt): C#? Really?
[12:23] Rex Cronon: hi michellemarquiese
[12:23] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith): i dont think they have firmly desided what scripting language yet
[12:23] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): C# is love/hate vs. C++
[12:23] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith): but yes, c# wason the list to look into
[12:23] Lex (lexbot.sinister): why can't we have both <3
[12:24] Duckie Dickins: I think if "the new thing" is going to compete, it'll really need to step the game up.
[12:24] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith): and i believe there will bemroe than one, possibly (as long as its compatible with mono)
[12:24] Bizi Pfeffer: I think it will get interesting with all these new platforms; Mivvo, SL 2.0, High Fidelity. Like Blu-Ray and HD-DVD.
[12:24] Rex Cronon: we can certainly have a lsl interpreter written in c#
[12:24] Rex Cronon: :)
[12:24] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): just no obfuscation
[12:24] Mona (mona.eberhardt): I wonder how straightforward it will be to change object properties in C#.
[12:25] Duckie Dickins: so as an engineer..tell'em that. :)
[12:25] Rex Cronon: cube.width=10;
[12:25] Rex Cronon: in c#
[12:25] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): you'd probably fall into Perl, Python or PHP better than into C# if you're a whiz at LSL
[12:25] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith): cube.height=42bonndoggels
[12:25] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): just mo
[12:26] Aur'a Færs (inusaito.kanya): Wouldn't it be more like cube.setWidth()?
[12:26] Lex (lexbot.sinister): Are we going to see any large improvements in Sl still, or just smaller tweaks/polishing/legalese?
[12:26] Simon Linden: I know there are tons of questions and speculation about The Next Thing, but since it's a future product I can't get into any details. That includes talking about the pros and cons of all these good things
[12:26] Mona (mona.eberhardt): Because people have accumulated know-how in LSL, and starting from scratch could slow things down.
[12:26] Simon Linden: I'm also working on SL full time, so I'm not at those meetings :P
[12:27] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith): glad to have you ?
[12:27] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): Simon is goign down with this ship, hehe
[12:27] Oz Linden: me too :-)
[12:27] Oz Linden: (not the going down part)
[12:27] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): lol
[12:27] Chucking Fatlag (whirly.fizzle): lol
[12:27] MB Robonaught: lol
[12:27] Rex Cronon: inusaito. it depends on ll:)
[12:27] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): Oz is on working on the next big boat
[12:27] Simon Linden: I prefer to think of it as playing in the band on the promenade deck ... :P
[12:28] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): until you're gargling the lyrics, right?
[12:28] MB Robonaught: will there ever be any new features on how LSL handles http and the like?
[12:28] Simon Linden: but seriously ... there's a lot of life and time left in SL. the sky is not falling and it's not about to go away
[12:28] Oz Linden: "ever" is a long time, MB
[12:28] MB Robonaught: sL to/from web applications
[12:28] Simon Linden: what do you need, MB?
[12:29] Lex (lexbot.sinister): Do you have any freedom to implement any new large changes, as big as materials, Fitted mesh, etc?
[12:29] Rex Cronon: u know guys. its kind of illogic for ll to continue working on this world if it will be discarded. the only logical explanation is that ll plans to use parts of this world in the new one:)
[12:29] Oz Linden: Yes, it would be illogical, Rex, but it isn't being discarded
[12:29] Bizi Pfeffer: It's their main income source.
[12:30] Rex Cronon: therefore its very likely that "the new world" won't be that different than the existing one
[12:30] MB Robonaught: direct web communications without a page display would be nice...not talking GET, POST ect
[12:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[12:30] Duckie Dickins: look at it like IRC.....it's still around even though instant messengers and social media messenging have taken over. :)
[12:30] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith): kill web communications
[12:30] Simon Linden: so you want a tcp/ip socket? udp?
[12:30] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): it'll be a museum/educational(historical) piece to log into for the future (where we came from/what cavemen logged onto before we went to mental implants)
[12:30] MB Robonaught: that would be of help or other options
[12:30] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith): i want everything over HTTP 2.0! :D
[12:30] Oz Linden: Gotta watch out using logic to make predictions.... you tend to get what your assumptions lead to
[12:31] MB Robonaught: like better parsing of XML pages
[12:31] Bizi Pfeffer: Think about SL like you would think about for example Fifa. They won't stop fixing Fifa 12, even when there will be Fifa 13.
[12:31] Lex (lexbot.sinister): SL could still be a learning ground/testing ground for what to do and not to do- so the next grid doesn't need to repeat fiascos.
[12:31] Rex Cronon: sadly because the new world will have parts of this world it will also mean that some of the bugs from here will also be available in the new world:(
[12:31] Simon Linden: ok ... yeah, I can see where you might want more power and protocols like that, depending on what kind of server is on the other end
[12:31] Oz Linden: MB ... have you looked at the json functions? What problem are you trying to solve?
[12:32] Duckie Dickins: maybe you mean something like SVC-6480 MB.
[12:32] Qie Niangao: Or the next grid could be the learning ground, for features that backport to SL 1 when 2 fails.
[12:32] Simon Linden: but you have to realize how wide-open and easily abused that is
[12:32] Duckie Dickins: kelly already said no on several occasions though. :)
[12:32] Lex (lexbot.sinister): One thing that has always been difficult is to predict how people will use what they are given in tech... and with SL, LL can look back and see how things are used.
[12:32] Rex Cronon: oz. people r forced to make assumptions based on the available data. its only logical:)
[12:33] Hexapoda: I hope you Lindens know that it us users that are in charge, if we want we get.
[12:34] MB Robonaught: yes I have looked into JSON it isn't quite right for my needs... I have a race track that is sent data from SL then parses that data and sends it back to SL as a command or a web page display...it works fine with the tools at hand but would be better with more .NET web capabilities
[12:34] Rex Cronon: u so funny hexapoda:)
[12:34] Oscitancy: I've wanted nimble volumtric clouds for years Hexa I never got that.
[12:35] Hexapoda: You just not complain in right way.
[12:35] Bizi Pfeffer: Yeah, file a Jira xD
[12:36] MB Robonaught: I just think more ability to work with web apps would be a cool tyhing for us
[12:36] Duckie Dickins: yeah....with sockets. :D
[12:36] Chucking Fatlag (whirly.fizzle): https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-5879 Implement Nimble volumetric clouds tech that Linden Lab bought 7 years ago.
[12:36] Rex Cronon: its a little illogical. if we the users were in charge than we the user wouldn't need to complain. we would do only what we wanted and how we wanted:)
[12:37] Oscitancy: Is now a good time to ask about the new experiences thing? I was wondering if we could get some more controls instead of just the basic stuff we have now. I mean Looking at that video with the monsters and the guy with the gun it was be REALLY nice to have extra buttons like 1 2 3 4 so we can swap weapons and things. I'm sure extra controls would be useful on practically everything in SL.
[12:37] Chucking Fatlag (whirly.fizzle): You can swap weapons in the cornfield game
[12:37] Hexapoda: Well, let us do a test, next week no user do login :-)
[12:37] Chucking Fatlag (whirly.fizzle): You just have to earn the extra weapons first
[12:37] Duckie Dickins: programable client buttons would be sweet.....huds are so 2006
[12:37] MB Robonaught: yes °?°
[12:37] Hexapoda: Or we can all demand Kelly Lindens bling on a silver tray.
[12:37] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): you'd have to setup the game for taht, but in regards to controls taking more buttons I think theres a jira for that
[12:38] Oscitancy: I just want some keyboard buttons to use instead of click clik clicking the hud.
[12:38] Seewo (siwo): but it is truth... SL is just platform to allows users certain actions.... like any other program, if it isn't sufficient for the user they look for replacement.
[12:38] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith): but clicky clikcy is ideal for touch screens! :P
[12:38] Rex Cronon: i have a better test. lets all stop selling and buying 4 a week. now. how r u going to make everybody do that:)
[12:39] Chucking Fatlag (whirly.fizzle): Not while the hair fair & show fair is on you won't Rex :P
[12:39] Chucking Fatlag (whirly.fizzle): *shoe
[12:39] Duckie Dickins: hah
[12:39] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): you'd have better luck having peopel fall backwards into your arms, Rex
[12:39] Simon Linden: yeah Duckie - I would love to see a fully scriptable UI in a viewer. I worked in a previous life on apps running on top of Javascript, and that flexibility is awesome
[12:39] Rex Cronon: lol whirly
[12:39] Duckie Dickins: you don't get between a woman and the hair fair...ever
[12:39] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith): if everyone doesn't buy anything in SL.both platforms will die and youll end up with nothing
[12:39] Chucking Fatlag (whirly.fizzle): Right Duckie ;)
[12:39] Simon Linden: it would be a great Firestorm feature :P
[12:40] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): uh oh
[12:40] Duckie Dickins: make it so, tank
[12:40] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith): lol simon
[12:40] Lex (lexbot.sinister): oh, so much fun at the hair fair. Go there, have half of the sim blocked out by a rigges shirt that never snaps in place 8no, not mine), see peoples asses float beside them, and then realise my boots are beside me, too. And then it doesn't actually snap on at all, until next log in.
[12:40] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith): give us a patch! :D
[12:40] Chucking Fatlag (whirly.fizzle): File a JIRA & add your patch Simon :P
[12:40] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith): hahaha
[12:40] Chucking Fatlag (whirly.fizzle): lol snap
[12:40] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): "broacast key strokes on channel #", "keys to broadcast:"
[12:40] Rex Cronon: i already did that lucy:)
[12:41] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith): stop using old viewers like phoenix then :P
[12:41] Simon Linden: I have a general question ... have people seen an increase in the odd display issues that happen when you sit or stand? I personally have seen more of that "I'm at 0,0,0" lately
[12:41] Chucking Fatlag (whirly.fizzle): YESSSSSSSS
[12:41] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): ya
[12:41] Chucking Fatlag (whirly.fizzle): Since interesting
[12:42] Simon Linden: however I know I've turned bandwidth down recently
[12:42] Inara Pey: Still getting it on Firestorm, Whirls
[12:42] MB Robonaught: yes I see my skin just outside my region's border
[12:42] Rex Cronon: today when i came here i was first sent to 0,0,0
[12:42] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): saw it at the cornfield yesterday with soemone sitting on teh barn they went out of teh region boundaries, first time I ever saw taht one
[12:42] Aur'a Færs (inusaito.kanya): That must be an interesting thing, I'm not seeing it.
[12:42] Duckie Dickins: sometimes if you cam to 0,0,0 you can see people seated there
[12:43] Duckie Dickins: sometimes they even show up on the minimap there
[12:43] Rex Cronon: we first need to seek orgin. after that we can go wherever:)
[12:43] MB Robonaught: I've seen that
[12:43] Chucking Fatlag (whirly.fizzle): https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-6648 Animated agents at high altitudes randomly show up at 0,0,0 again - this def started with the interesting viewer changes. Doesnt repro still on pre interesting viewers
[12:43] Lex (lexbot.sinister): i get that issue mostly with the minimap
[12:43] Rex Cronon: origin*
[12:43] Inara Pey: Whirls, it may have increased with Interesting, but I'm getting it with FS 4.6.5 fairly regularly.
[12:43] Duckie Dickins: I figured that was SL just being SL...
[12:44] Chucking Fatlag (whirly.fizzle): Oh you are?
[12:44] Chucking Fatlag (whirly.fizzle): Hmmmmm
[12:44] Simon Linden: the minimap updates are different than the ones used for your AV or camera position
[12:44] Inara Pey: Yup.
[12:44] Inara Pey: Hence thursday and coyot
[12:44] Chucking Fatlag (whirly.fizzle): That bug Ansa filed def only happenes on Interesting
[12:44] Chucking Fatlag (whirly.fizzle): Probably more then one bug involved though I guess
[12:44] Simon Linden: and I know that can be caused by a timing problem between updates ... when you sit, your postion is relative to what you're sitting on, so if the viewer doesn't know that, it thinks you're very near 0,0,0
[12:45] Lex (lexbot.sinister): oh speaking of which, i still get the bug where my ears don't rez until i click them. I thought that was fixed?
[12:45] Mona (mona.eberhardt): I've had it a few times too (4.6.5.40833)
[12:45] Chucking Fatlag (whirly.fizzle): Are they unrigged mesh?
[12:45] Lex (lexbot.sinister): attached non-rigged mesh not rezzing until poked
[12:45] Chucking Fatlag (whirly.fizzle): Thats relly bad for not rezzing till clicked after a TP
[12:45] Chucking Fatlag (whirly.fizzle): *really
[12:45] CmdrCupcake (sovereign.engineer): I've been noticing a bug since interesting that sitting avatars animations will randomly stop. :D
[12:45] Simon Linden: I'm not sure how to attack it ... the viewer could be a bit smarter about positions near the origin, perhaps
[12:46] MB Robonaught: ghosts not fully cleared from the database perhaps Simon?
[12:46] Chucking Fatlag (whirly.fizzle): I have a pair of unrigged boots that do that on pretty much every TP. But thats not new with those boots. Its happened since mesh first appeared. Unrigged mesh is def the worst for it though. Zooming cam out and back makes them appear too.
[12:47] Mona (mona.eberhardt): Sculpties suffer from it too, Whirly.
[12:47] Lex (lexbot.sinister): Zooming out of camera range and then back *used* to fix it sometimes, but now it actually never does.
[12:47] Chucking Fatlag (whirly.fizzle): Hmmm did that change with interesting? Tbh I usually just click them to make them rez
[12:47] Chucking Fatlag (whirly.fizzle): Ill try zooming now Im on interesting viewers all the time
[12:48] Hexapoda: Mesh designers has to learn to apply rotation and size before they upload.
[12:48] Lex (lexbot.sinister): thing is, for a little while, the issue stopped, and while it could be like 2-3 sec longer for them to rez, they eventually did on their own. And then it reverted
[12:48] CmdrCupcake (sovereign.engineer): I've been seeing a bug where my rigged body doesn't rez even after i click it. :D
[12:48] CmdrCupcake (sovereign.engineer): It usually takes some creative camera positioning/moving to get it to appear.
[12:49] Hexapoda: It not fun to start SL with 10 meters pants sideways over your head when you log in.
[12:49] Lex (lexbot.sinister): At hair fair, there was plenty of that. Peoples bodyparts floating around.....
[12:49] CmdrCupcake (sovereign.engineer): I'm triangles.
[12:49] CmdrCupcake (sovereign.engineer): :P
[12:49] Simon Linden: it can get pretty crazy when you TP into a crowded area ... there are body parts and clothing flipping and rescaling all over
[12:49] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-2301 <--hopefully this can be fixed soon too
[12:49] Chucking Fatlag (whirly.fizzle): haha yeah, that happens a lot on busy regions with lots of avies wearing mesh
[12:49] Simon Linden: or not appearing
[12:49] Chucking Fatlag (whirly.fizzle): Giant floating mesh heads!
[12:49] Lex (lexbot.sinister): Hmmm... maybe rigged mesh could be forced to scale when uploaded?
[12:50] Duckie Dickins: I got some mesh sand platforms that only rez half the time. Usually toggling to wireframe view would fix most things that weren't appearing but it doesn't help with the platform.
[12:50] Lex (lexbot.sinister): it can get bigger when the rigging data gets loaded
[12:50] Chucking Fatlag (whirly.fizzle): Im hoping Montys HTTP Pipeline viewer may help with this
[12:50] Mona (mona.eberhardt): Also, maybe BUG-5575 could be reconsidered?
[12:51] Simon Linden: a lot of these issues come down to having the right tools and info ... it would be great if the mesh pipeline would give more feedback on what's being uploaded.
[12:51] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith): im hoping Monty is working on the new platform so it really great from the get-go network communication wise
[12:51] Simon Linden: Faster loading would help, Whirly ... I'm really hoping that pans out
[12:51] CmdrCupcake (sovereign.engineer): @Mona Graham tested adding the objects normals/specularity to the water reflection...The results were rather slow.
[12:51] Qie Niangao: Screw it. Let's just go back to the basic system avatars, complete with system hair, shoes, and skin-tinting slider. Imagine the newbie experience if the appearance editor actually worked!
[12:52] Lex (lexbot.sinister): i would love if there was a check- "is this a rigged item? Then it will be automatically scaled down if it's above 5 meters. It will re-scale anyways when rigging kicks in"
[12:52] Chucking Fatlag (whirly.fizzle): Im really impressed with the HTTP viewer. I see a huge difference in load times myself, both for textures and mesh.
[12:52] CmdrCupcake (sovereign.engineer): The code to do material rendering in water relfectiosn is still in the viewer though.
[12:52] Aur'a Færs (inusaito.kanya): Or... we could just hide rigged items until they're rigged.
[12:53] Rex Cronon: what i really don't like is that i can't seem to link objects that are 64m apart:(
[12:53] Qie Niangao: that's because 55m is the limit, rex
[12:53] Mona (mona.eberhardt): On what kind of setup, Cmdr?
[12:53] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith): 54m
[12:54] Oz Linden: No matter what limit we pick, someone will want a bigger one...
[12:54] Rex Cronon: it used to be 64
[12:54] Mona (mona.eberhardt): For instance, I know my laptop's GPU would die trying.
[12:54] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith): i want 128boondoggels apart! :D
[12:54] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): it used to be bb based plus geometric center calc
[12:54] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith): its never been 64
[12:54] Lex (lexbot.sinister): I wonder why some items are imported huge though? i suspect it's a workaround for some no-rez issues. There is no sense in uploading a 64 meter big shirt, it's just costly, no?
[12:54] MB Robonaught: any chance of getting more tols to check sim performance(accurate ones) so we as RC land owners don't have to pester tech support as much when a problem isn't obvious?
[12:54] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): lets nto go back to taht rocket sicence
[12:55] Seewo (siwo): size has no influence on upload cost
[12:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[12:56] Chucking Fatlag (whirly.fizzle): I suspect its just that creators don't realise when they upload at that size lexbot. They don't realise when their rigging isn't loading for other avatars they will see the mesh at that huge size
[12:56] Simon Linden: MB ... I'm always interested in new info you might want exposed to LSL scripts. Depending on the data, it can be really easy to add
[12:57] Rex Cronon: my problems is that i have linked objects, and each object in the link set moves around. if i want it to move 64m away from center than it stop at around 32. it don't think it gets to 54m.
[12:57] Simon Linden: No promises, of course, but one of the items on our long list of possible features is having the stats you get in the viewer exposed in LSL
[12:57] MB Robonaught: a great one would be to check for a corrupted prim
[12:57] MB Robonaught: or script
[12:57] CmdrCupcake (sovereign.engineer): Simon, is there an easy way for you guys to expose what scripts/avatar are causing an impact on total amount of scripts run per sim frame?
[12:57] Simon Linden: how do you mean corrupted?
[12:58] Qie Niangao: Rex, it's not about the center anymore, it's the maximum distance between origins of the most distant objects in the linkset.
[12:58] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): I'm interested in knowing who the cause of excessive agent/image/simulator and esp net timing is, heh
[12:58] CmdrCupcake (sovereign.engineer): Because I love playing resident roulette when yelling at people about why scripts run % is down to 5% with no noticable impact on script time.
[12:59] Rex Cronon: ok. thanks qie. that meakes sense
[12:59] Simon Linden: Cmdr - there's already some basic info like memory used. The data you get in the viewer about top scripts and such does have an overhead ... it wouldn't be simple to have that always available
[12:59] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): I'd also liek shorter script decay options, lol
[12:59] MB Robonaught: I've ran into objects that were broke somehow in the database that appear fine inworld but caused sim problems until removed...didn't matter if scripted or not....things like giving some one an object ful perm and would arrive no perms at all....strange things like that
[12:59] Oz Linden: CmdrCupcake... I don't know about "easy", but one of the items we'd like to start on soon is better tools for finding problem avatars
[12:59] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): *script timing decay
[12:59] Rex Cronon: lucy wants to mess with griefers. i should say bomb droppers;)
[13:00] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): mess with?
[13:00] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): those bomb users can't be stopped
[13:00] MB Robonaught: if we could test an object and founfd it to be corupted then it can be replaced
[13:00] Simon Linden: there is the new render cost info on AVs ... that's available in scripts
[13:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[13:00] User Group Visitor Detector: Stopped tracking visitors and sending email report
[13:00] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): if they don't use teh rez method
[13:00] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): they don't require prims or scripts working
[13:00] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): they can still use the illegal tpv method
[13:00] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): it has to be a server change that blocks that
[13:00] MB Robonaught: I just want to be of more help with sim performance °?°
[13:01] CmdrCupcake (sovereign.engineer): You can get an avatars render cost from LSL and boot them from the sim? :D
[13:01] Rex Cronon: ok
[13:01] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): Sov, it isn't reliable
[13:01] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): its capped pre trend calc
[13:01] Mona (mona.eberhardt): Don't get me started on those drama-generating booters.
[13:01] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): you won't be detecting anyone that attaches a sculpt lagger with it
[13:01] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): in fact I never have since its inception
[13:02] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): and I've been monitoring it since day1
[13:02] Rex Cronon: u need a tpv to detect that:)
[13:02] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): and still am
[13:02] Simon Linden: yes, it's render cost only ... the numbers you can turn on in the viewer about how much it takes to draw them. Scripts aren't a part of that
[13:02] Bear Hunt Start: Bear Quest Start touched by Oscitancy Resident
[13:03] Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith): thx for your time, simon
[13:03] Mona (mona.eberhardt): Thanks, Simon.
[13:03] MB Robonaught: yes thank you Simon °?°
[13:03] Simon Linden: what happens with a scupt lagger, Lucy? Their cost stays low?
[13:03] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): the only way you're catching people wearing laggers by script would be by key alone, but theres no way to get an attachment key without some feedback first
[13:04] Lex (lexbot.sinister): thanks for the meeting..
[13:04] Rex Cronon: lol tank. why u have to remind him that time is up:)
[13:04] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): Simon, the capped trend prevents the reading from ever getting to the 500k cap
[13:04] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): *pre capped trend
[13:04] Simon Linden: ah right ... it doesn't have an instant response with the values either, so early detection is a problem
[13:04] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): right
[13:04] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): lol
[13:05] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): you'd be lucky to catch someone that entered the region wearing one
[13:05] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): I've only done that one time
[13:05] Charlie Navarathna: nods
[13:05] Simon Linden: right ... it's a nasty problem because it's a viewer trust issue
[13:05] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire): sadly
[13:06] Chucking Fatlag (whirly.fizzle): Ty Simon
[13:06] Simon Linden: Thanks everyone for coming this week and the good conversation
[13:06] Charlie Navarathna: Thank you
[13:06] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell): Thank you, Simon.
[13:06] Oscitancy: Bye dimon :)
[13:06] Simon Linden: See you next time
[13:06] Mona (mona.eberhardt): Have a nice one, Simon.
[13:06] Rex Cronon: don't worry lucy. all these problems will be "fixed" in sl3.0:)
[13:06] Rex Cronon: tc simon
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