Second Life Railroad/Rail Community/2011-06-03

__TOC__	
==Description==
This page contains the transcript and information about the the Rail Community meetings in SL from 2011-06-03
The meeting was hosted by the Stryker Jenkins of the VRC for the benefit of the SL Rail Community as a whole.
==Agenda==
# Brief introduction
# Linden Department Public Works 
# Bay City Harbor Railway 
#* Michael Linden: "Should Bay City trackage have a phantom Guide?" 
# SLRR discussion
#* Open discussion: Public (automated) trains on the SLRR
# GSLR, ONSR and other railway lines
# Closing remarks
==Attendees List==
*Caliburn Susanto (caliburn.susanto)
*Catgirl Hian (catgirl.hian)
*DOUGIE Flossberg (dougie.flossberg)
*Fenix Eldritch (fenix.eldritch)
*followmeimthe Piedpiper (followmeimthe.piedpiper)
*Hilary Sikorsky (hilary.sikorsky)
*Holocluck Henly (holocluck.henly)
*Hrdtop75 Deluxe (hrdtop75.deluxe)
*June Trefoil (june.trefoil)
*Karima Hoisan (karima.hoisan)
*Kitto Flora (kitto.flora)
*LoveWitch Silverweb (lovewitch.silverweb)
*Marianne McCann (marianne.mccann)
*Mavromichali Szondi (mavromichali.szondi)
*Michael Linden (michael.linden)
*Moundsa Mayo (moundsa.mayo)
*myuki Mills (myuki.mills)
*Noir Alter (noir.alter)
*Pine Martinek (pine.martinek)
*Radioactive Rosca (radioactive.rosca)
*Ralph Pootawn (ralph.pootawn)
*SkyBlue Earthboy (skyblue.earthboy)
*Solonia Stenvaag (solonia.stenvaag)
*Stryker Jenkins (stryker.jenkins)
*Sylvan Mole (sylvan.mole)
*troy Waxen (troy.waxen)
*Yavanna Llanfair (yavanna.llanfair)
==Transcript for Friday June 3, 2011==
[13:38]	Stryker Jenkins 	Ok... shell we get started...
[13:38]	Marianne McCann 	10 points from Slytherin
[13:38]	Moundsa Mayo 	Glad you could join us, Michael!
[13:39]	Stryker Jenkins 	Agenda:
[13:39]	Stryker Jenkins 	1. Brief introduction
[13:39]	Stryker Jenkins 	2. Recent History
[13:39]	Stryker Jenkins 	3. Linden Department Public Works
[13:39]	Stryker Jenkins 	4. Bay City Harbor Railway
[13:39]	Stryker Jenkins 	4.1 Michael Linden: "Should Bay City trackage have a phantom Guide?"
[13:39]	Stryker Jenkins 	5. SLRR discussion
[13:39]	Stryker Jenkins 	5.1- Open discussion: Public (automated) trains on the SLRR,
[13:39]	Stryker Jenkins 	6. GSLR, ONSR and other railway lines
[13:39]	Catgirl Hian 	as long as you don't want a blue cat, ok to me
[13:39]	Stryker Jenkins 	unless there are importent issues I'd like to stick to the agenda.
[13:39]	Marianne McCann 	Can only be so blue here, it's a moderate regon
[13:40]	Stryker Jenkins 	we can discuss anything specific at the "other railway lines" part of the agenda
[13:40]	Stryker Jenkins 	ok... Welcome all lets get the 2nd Rail Community meeting started
[13:40]	Stryker Jenkins 	1. Brief Introduction
[13:40]	Stryker Jenkins 	On behalf of the Virtual Railway Consortium I would like to welcome all you railway fans to the 2nd Rail Community Meeting.
[13:41]	Stryker Jenkins 	A transcript of this meeting will be posted on the Wiki sometime after this meeting. You can find it here:
[13:41]	Stryker Jenkins 	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Second_Life_Railroad/Rail_Community
[13:41]	Pine Martinek 	ldpw next?
[13:41]	Holocluck Henly 	LDPW: I dont know where to create a ticket to request rezzing zones and report damages.
[13:41]	Holocluck Henly 	i lost where to do this
[13:41]	Stryker Jenkins 	Today we would like to discuss a few things about Railroad and other Transportation opportunities in Second Life
[13:41]	Pine Martinek 	do only premium members have ticket support now?
[13:41]	Stryker Jenkins 	But I want to start off by listing a few things that have happened between the last RCM meeting from December 3rd. 2010 and Now.
[13:41]	Holocluck Henly 	I am a premium member.
[13:41]	Holocluck Henly 	most are
[13:41]	Mavromichali Szondi 	patience....qvestions vill be answered shortly
[13:42]	Holocluck Henly 	ok Stryker
[13:42]	Pine Martinek 	sry
[13:42]	Stryker Jenkins 	2. Recent History
[13:42]	Stryker Jenkins 	The number of Railway sims on the Heterocera Atoll has increased quite a bit. This is mostly due to the increased interest from private land owners who specifically bought mainland parcels for their private Railways.
[13:42]	Stryker Jenkins 	The number of Railway sims owned by Linden lab on the Heterocera Atoll has not changed much, although a few extensions to existing lines have been made.
[13:42]	Stryker Jenkins 	I estimate the total number of sims with Railroads on them on the Heterocera Atoll is about 100 v.s. the 80+ of last meeting. Exact numbers are not available.
[13:42]	Stryker Jenkins 	By the end of winter the last 2 switches on the main line had been installed near the Clearwing / Paranthrene station, completing the SLRR network
[13:42]	Stryker Jenkins 	And a lot of new tracks had been built by residents.
[13:43]	Catgirl Hian 	nice increase
[13:43]	Stryker Jenkins 	On Sansara, the Bay City Harbor Railway has been completed by the Moles and now can be used in the same way as the SLRR railway on the Heterocera Atoll.
[13:43]	Stryker Jenkins 	More about this particular railway in a moment... the LDPW has some questions for us about that line.
[13:43]	Pine Martinek 	we should pay some shcmuck ro count all the rail sims sometime, lol
[13:44]	Mavromichali Szondi 	nods.. iz goot to see Bay City growink vell
[13:44]	Stryker Jenkins 	Also on Sansara, The Great Second Life Railway has converted to SLRR standards as recorded on the wiki page:
[13:44]	Stryker Jenkins 	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Second_Life_Railroad/SLRR_standards
[13:44]	Hilary Sikorsky 	has done that a while ago, needs updating though
''
[13:44]	Mavromichali Szondi 	heh RL parody there
[13:44]	LoveWitch Silverweb 	Sir,there s mising track down the H8 store station
[13:44]	Stryker Jenkins 	A few privately owned sims with railways have also expressed interest in converting or setting up railway lines there.
[13:45]	LoveWitch Silverweb 	:D
[13:45]	Stryker Jenkins 	Love... are those LL owned or by Mick Huet
[13:45]	Stryker Jenkins 	A few privately owned sims with railways have also expressed interest in converting or setting up railway lines there.
[13:45]	Stryker Jenkins 	I think we can all agree that, although things on the SLRR have slowed down quite a bit since last year, Second Life now has a perfectly fine setup to help new and existing users experience a Rail network that works for everyone.
[13:45]	LoveWitch Silverweb 	they are near a big city area
[13:45]	Sylvan Mole 	woot!
[13:45]	Stryker Jenkins 	yay
[13:45]	Holocluck Henly 	:)
[13:45]	LoveWitch Silverweb 	with malls and such
[13:45]	Stryker Jenkins 	3. LDPW
[13:45]	Stryker Jenkins 	I would like to give the floor now to Michael Linden, Content manager for Linden Lab. He will tell you a little bit about what the LDPW Moles have been up to in regards of the SLRR and other Transportation opportunities in SL.
[13:46]	Catgirl Hian 	clap clap clap
[13:46]	Stryker Jenkins 	The question you had about Bay City Harbor Railway standards can be discussed after this.
[13:46]	LoveWitch Silverweb 	yay!:)
[13:46]	Stryker Jenkins 	I know Kitto Flora has a direct question for Michael about the ONSR for you Michael.
[13:46]	Stryker Jenkins 	But first over to Michael.
[13:47]	Michael Linden 	So the last, hmm, 9 months or so have been mostly improvement rather than expansion for the SLRR.
[13:47]	Mavromichali Szondi 	jest az important though
[13:48]	Michael Linden 	We're not likely to convert much more land to railway right-of-way on the Mainland, though we have been looking covetously ...
[13:48]	SkyBlue Earthboy 	i like the improvements
[13:48]	Michael Linden 	There's some "Route 3-1/2" land we might make an expansion on.
[13:48]	Marianne McCann 	agrees with SkyBlue
''
[13:48]	Michael Linden 	And a couple of places have been left open for destination builds ...
[13:48]	June Trefoil 	Rt 6 is awesome.
[13:48]	followmeimthe Piedpiper	would be nice to extend to the other continents, take some load off Heterocera
[13:48]	Catgirl Hian 	yes, would be
[13:49]	LoveWitch Silverweb 	i wish i had seen route 6
[13:49]	Pine Martinek 	Zindra perhaps? lol
[13:49]	Yavanna Llanfair 	I think the land just isn't available elsewhere, without dismantling roads
[13:49]	Michael Linden 	Tersa has a possible rail yard or mine, or something.
[13:49]	Holocluck Henly 	What about the possibility of some sort of ferry service from Bay City's rail to a depot in Western Heterocera?
[13:49]	Yavanna Llanfair 	Hmm Pine has a piont about Zindra though
[13:49]	Stryker Jenkins 	well A little expence on Sansare is going on
[13:49]	Moundsa Mayo 	Undersea track, and sea-level causeways!
[13:49]	Stryker Jenkins 	at Bay City
[13:50]	Moundsa Mayo 	(Staying out of the sailors' way, of course)
[13:50]	Michael Linden 	We've built the docks for it, Holocluck but it's not currently got any mole-hours on it.
[13:50]	Mavromichali Szondi 	nods waterways are a good substitute
[13:50]	Holocluck Henly 	well that's a start :)
[13:50]	Michael Linden 	I'm not so sure underwater railways are gonna fly.
[13:50]	Sylvan Mole 	i like the idea of an underwater line too.
[13:50]	Sylvan Mole 	ops
[13:50]	SkyBlue Earthboy 	i love underwater track - its so surreal
[13:50]	Holocluck Henly 	well heh more like swim
[13:50]	Ralph Pootawn 	UNDERWATER :)
[13:50]	Radioactive Rosca 	i do like that idea!!!
[13:50]	Michael Linden 	Oh, it's a discussion, but the sailors may complain!
[13:50]	Marianne McCann 	Bah, underwater
[13:50]	Mavromichali Szondi 	a couple of the Caledon island links run in underwater tubes
[13:50]	Pine Martinek 	yes, Zindra has mucho unused LL ocean sims, but LL admin nixed it already for rails
[13:50]	Hilary Sikorsky 	Liberta used to have an underwater rail tunnel, I think Caledon still has one
[13:50]	Holocluck Henly 	true skyblue but not everyone is savvy to use mouselook
[13:51]	Yavanna Llanfair 	A mountain railway in the snow smis might be nice though
[13:51]	Radioactive Rosca 	but Michael doesn't like the tunnel idea :-(--- lol
[13:51]	Stryker Jenkins 	we have that... that's ONSR
[13:51]	Yavanna Llanfair 	Well technically that is not a mountain railway, it doesn't use a cog
[13:51]	Hilary Sikorsky 	there is a railway in the snow sims *smiles*
[13:51]	followmeimthe Piedpiper	a very long viaduct!
[13:51]	LoveWitch Silverweb 	are there voluteeneer biulders for the SLRR proects?
[13:51]	Michael Linden 	I don't see us rushing into Zindra soon with railways.
[13:51]	Mavromichali Szondi 	there are moles...
[13:51]	Caliburn Susanto 	/ If you put a "glass" tunnel around it, the suspension of disbelief holds in underwaters road and tracks
[13:52]	Pine Martinek 	volunteers need to be moles don't they?
[13:52]	DOUGIE Flossberg 	- Malacosoma Station is listed on the LDPW's SLRR system map. How do I get MY private location listed on the Linden system map too?
[13:52]	Hilary Sikorsky 	that's what the Liberta tunnel did
[13:52]	Holocluck Henly 	freelancers. no volunteers for legal reasons
[13:52]	LoveWitch Silverweb 	can i be mole?
[13:52]	Radioactive Rosca 	i would prefer a underwater tunel between this Atoll and Bay City
[13:52]	Michael Linden 	We can't use volunteers, no.
[13:52]	Michael Linden 	And we haven't hired any new moles in ever so long.
[13:53]	LoveWitch Silverweb 	can i be freelancer?
[13:53]	Stryker Jenkins 	Michael... on the subject of Residents wanting to connect their privat traks. Can you explain once more what Residents need to do to connect to the SLRR?
[13:53]	Holocluck Henly 	he's politely hinting they dont have the budget for new moles
[13:53]	Michael Linden 	Sure.
[13:53]	Pine Martinek 	you would need to be in the LL rez group, that is difficult I assume
[13:53]	Mavromichali Szondi 	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thames_Tunnel
[13:53]	Michael Linden 	File a support ticket, with your request.
[13:53]	Stryker Jenkins 	Dougie... I made and maintain the map... if you want me to list your station... please give me a shout after the meeting.
[13:54]	Michael Linden 	Give us the location ... we check your account for discipline, billing, and "is they likely to stick around" issues ...
[13:54]	Stryker Jenkins 	What rules you you maintain for SLRR Connection Micheal?
[13:54]	Stryker Jenkins 	sorry Michael
[13:54]	Michael Linden 	Well, we don't want a connection to cause trouble, or to annoy people using the tracks.
[13:54]	Pine Martinek 	discipline puts me out of the picture
[13:54]	Holocluck Henly 	dont you and the moles make the actual connection from their parcel?
[13:54]	Marianne McCann 	Stryker - I think (and DOUGIE, feel free to correct) that he's referring the route map at spots like Melanthia station. It's not the VRC map, but a mole made one
[13:54]	Michael Linden 	There's probably a minimal level of "seriousness" we look for ... though cartoon trains have been seen.
[13:55]	Pine Martinek 	lol
[13:55]	Michael Linden 	Yes, the moles put in a switch, and we run the turnout rails to the parcel boundary.
[13:55]	Stryker Jenkins 	Thanks Mari
[13:55]	Michael Linden 	We also do some terrain fiddling to make it all work.
[13:55]	Marianne McCann 	(and I assumed it was an error or oversight)
[13:55]	Pine Martinek 	I still haven't heard back from Thomas RL lawyers, I think there is no copyright or a battle for it
[13:55]	Michael Linden 	Oh: when deciding on a turnout, some level of "railway engineering" has to be followed.
[13:56]	Moundsa Mayo 	No 45 degree gradients?
[13:56]	Michael Linden 	We don't like a super-sharp turn, or really steep sudden climb.
[13:56]	Stryker Jenkins 	lol
[13:56]	Sylvan Mole 	those make me cry
[13:56]	Mavromichali Szondi 	heh
[13:56]	Stryker Jenkins 	rolecoaster trains
[13:56]	Hilary Sikorsky 	except when it comes to not moving existing structures, like the Eagan bridge ;)
[13:56]	Marianne McCann 	Rule #1: Don't make Sylvan cry.
[13:57]	Michael Linden 	I haven't made a ... uh ... style guide for track design. But "I know it when I see it".
[13:57]	Sylvan Mole 	=D ty Mari
[13:57]	Holocluck Henly 	heh
[13:57]	Stryker Jenkins 	Anyway... Shell we move on to the next subject on the agenda? Bay City Habor Railway
[13:57]	followmeimthe Piedpiper	you could stipulate a min radius?
[13:57]	Stryker Jenkins 	4. Bay City Harbor Railway
[13:57]	Stryker Jenkins 	As you may have heard the Bay City Harbor Railway is, and has been, taking shape. Michael Linden would like to discuss some details about that with us.
[13:57]	Michael Linden 	the corollary is of course that if your private ROW leaves, or you become EVIL we'll pull the switch.
[13:57]	Michael Linden 	Yes, onwards.
[13:58]	Sylvan Mole 	about 10 deg. max per 10 meter Guide is fair for a turn out. still to sharp for a physical train at speed though.
[13:58]	Hilary Sikorsky 	in RL the minimum radius is typically proportional to the track gauge
[13:58]	Michael Linden 	Bay City has some nice industrial trackage now.
[13:58]	Mavromichali Szondi 	likes industry
''
[13:58]	Michael Linden 	Crazy Mole has made a couple of cute lift bridges.
[13:58]	Marianne McCann 	Wonderful new bridges
[13:58]	Michael Linden 	Moles are adding new destinations.
[13:58]	Sylvan Mole 	gosh yes, Crazy's bridges are really great
[13:59]	Stryker Jenkins 	I LOVE THE NEW RR BRIDGES!
[13:59]	Hilary Sikorsky 	nicer than the road bascule bridges imho
[13:59]	Michael Linden 	We are hoping to find a Homestead region north of Owens Beach for more rail fun.
[13:59]	Sylvan Mole 	yay!
[13:59]	Holocluck Henly 	smiles on that one
''
[13:59]	Marianne McCann 	Tell us how you really feel Stryker. Don't hold back now
[13:59]	Mavromichali Szondi 	lol
[13:59]	Stryker Jenkins 	lol
[13:59]	Ralph Pootawn 	lol
[13:59]	Catgirl Hian 	would be very nice, more rails
[13:59]	Marianne McCann 	Definitely hopeful for that extra homestead
[14:00]	Michael Linden 	BUT ... the SLRR standard interferes with roads, runways, and dockside transport.
[14:00]	Moundsa Mayo 	Not extra, additional B^)
[14:00]	Michael Linden 	Due to the invisible Guide rail.
[14:00]	Pine Martinek 	can we dicuss a 'minimum prims available' on LL tracked sims? the new carriage add-on allows for 255 prims per carriage
[14:00]	Marianne McCann 	True, Moundaa
[14:00]	Michael Linden 	Sure, just a bit later, Pine.
[14:00]	Stryker Jenkins 	Next bit is importent... lets pay attention to Michael
[14:00]	LoveWitch Silverweb 	wow
[14:00]	Pine Martinek 	np
[14:00]	Pine Martinek 	I know Vine only has a few left
[14:01]	Michael Linden 	Anyway, we can't make every Guide rail turn phantom when autos approach, all over the dockyards, etc.
[14:01]	Catgirl Hian 	yes, the guide rail can be disturbing
[14:01]	Mavromichali Szondi 	you could put a bridge prim that rezzes temp?
[14:01]	Catgirl Hian 	maybe more bridged by road crossing?
[14:01]	Michael Linden 	And we'd like to extend the Bay City rail network ...
[14:01]	Holocluck Henly 	and they dont help hoverboarding either
[14:01]	Radioactive Rosca 	:-))))))
[14:01]	Mavromichali Szondi 	a simple trapezium perhaps
[14:01]	Michael Linden 	One proposal has been to make all the SLRR Guide rails in Bay City phantom.
[14:02]	Marianne McCann 	/me
[14:02]	Marianne McCann 	s ears perk up at the words "extend"
''
[14:02]	Michael Linden 	Pro: better for cars. Con: bad for trains using physics to follow Guide.
[14:02]	Hilary Sikorsky 	grade separation is not the kind of solution you can implement citywide Mavro
[14:02]	Pine Martinek 	can we put the guides below the roadbeds, and adjust our hieght in the script?
[14:02]	Moundsa Mayo 	Sure, just .5x.5x.5 phantom 10m apart or less will work as waypoint locators.
[14:02]	Stryker Jenkins 	So what propose is to make the Bay City Harbour Railnetwork compleetly phantom for the guide rail?
[14:02]	Michael Linden 	Well, if the Guide is phantom, it doesn't have to change location.
[14:02]	Mavromichali Szondi 	point
[14:02]	SkyBlue Earthboy 	one of my locos wouldnt go over a set of points at bay
[14:03]	Michael Linden 	points at Sylvan for all questions about switches!
''
[14:03]	Sylvan Mole 	oh =) Sky, drop me a slurl or LM ot offencive switch
[14:03]	Michael Linden 	Does anyone have a good feel for what fraction of current trains depend on a physical Guide?
[14:03]	SkyBlue Earthboy 	ok sylvan
[14:03]	Stryker Jenkins 	Well I think that has to do with the fact that the curves in the track are also much tighter then on the SLRR
[14:03]	followmeimthe Piedpiper	can't be many these days?
[14:04]	Moundsa Mayo 	Not many are running, as they don't stay on track even on the mainlline.
[14:04]	Michael Linden 	Yes, Bay City track has some tight curves.
[14:04]	Mavromichali Szondi 	I've not seen one in ages
[14:04]	Moundsa Mayo 	Not at the speeds they used to.
[14:04]	Pine Martinek 	very few, use physics, I assume. The 32 prim limits make them look inferior, lol
[14:04]	Sylvan Mole 	ill counter, we are getting some fancy physics upgrades with mesh. there may be new ways to do physi trains
[14:04]	Michael Linden 	More specifically: if turning the Guide phantom would upset/annoy some folks, I doubt we'll do it.
[14:05]	Moundsa Mayo 	And you can still use physical trains, vehicles even, but use sensor instead of collision guidance.
[14:05]	Fenix Eldritch 	And the train detail will go up with mesh like all vehicles
[14:05]	Sylvan Mole 	good point Moundsa
[14:05]	Stryker Jenkins 	I am surpized that no one is picking up the consequences of all Phantomed guide rails... Let me play devils advocat...
[14:05]	Michael Linden 	We won't turn the Guide phantom on the "mainline" ... we're just referring to the Bay City network.
[14:05]	Sylvan Mole 	removes my counter arguement
''
[14:05]	Michael Linden 	Please, Stryker.
[14:05]	Stryker Jenkins 	with all phantom guide rails physical trains will not be able to run!
[14:05]	Pine Martinek 	I don't think mesh will be here soon, tech issues still
[14:05]	Hilary Sikorsky 	ONSR is sensor guidance only, and we haven't had all that many visiting trains
[14:06]	Marianne McCann 	Pine - the rollout starts next month
[14:06]	Mavromichali Szondi 	isn't it scheduled for july?
[14:06]	Pine Martinek 	oops
[14:06]	Moundsa Mayo 	Only collision guidance won't work. Sensor-guided physical trais still will.
[14:06]	Michael Linden 	might know, but can't say!
''
[14:06]	Sylvan Mole 	tease!
[14:06]	Hilary Sikorsky 	though we had one crash into the cliff at the end of the line
[14:06]	Kitto Flora 	Thats physically *GUIDED* trains....
[14:06]	Michael Linden 	The only change being discussed would be the Phantom characteristic of the Guide.
[14:07]	Caliburn Susanto 	/ Making the guides phantom will make the train scripters happy, but annoy everyone who has vehicles/railcars they currently use and enjoy. Like me, for example. :-)
[14:07]	Mavromichali Szondi 	*progress renders some old tech to be retired* that's life
[14:07]	Stryker Jenkins 	People can we keep to the Guide rail issue at the moment please
[14:07]	Michael Linden 	They'd stay in the same locations.
[14:07]	Pine Martinek 	I don't think physical train owners will miss not running in bay city
[14:07]	Mavromichali Szondi 	I have a ton of road vehicles that havok 4 killed
[14:07]	Michael Linden 	The people with cars and trucks will be happy.
[14:07]	Moundsa Mayo 	I'd suggest it's more an issue of what the Bay City Residents prefer.
[14:07]	Marianne McCann 	And those doing a pretty short approach in Hau Koda
[14:07]	Michael Linden 	Try delivering a box to the Kittehwerx, for example.
[14:07]	Moundsa Mayo 	They work hard to keep a nice community.
[14:07]	Mavromichali Szondi 	I have had issues with driving into guide rails though
[14:07]	Sylvan Mole 	i think, its worth a try. we can always put it back if it causes issues we havent predicted
[14:08]	Caliburn Susanto 	/ Okay, but I see a lot more aircraft and rail than road vehicles (personally).
[14:08]	Stryker Jenkins 	Michael... would a change of Guide rail standards... effect the SLRR on the Heterocera Atoll ???
[14:08]	Michael Linden 	With phantom Guides, we can run track down Route 66, for example.
[14:08]	Hilary Sikorsky 	Hau Koda is too laggy for most trains anyway
[14:08]	Michael Linden 	Nope, Stryker.
[14:08]	Michael Linden 	No reason to mess with the "Mainline".
[14:08]	Stryker Jenkins 	can you repeat that?
[14:08]	Mavromichali Szondi 	that's because crashing after driviing 30 sims successfully and finding no rez point is a drag
[14:08]	Stryker Jenkins 	lol
[14:08]	Pine Martinek 	I feel it should be up to the Bay City land owners, they have the investments there
[14:08]	Sylvan Mole 	+1 Pine
[14:09]	Mavromichali Szondi 	point
[14:09]	Michael Linden 	The whole issue is to allow trains to operate on what appear to be roads.
[14:09]	Marianne McCann 	For me (as a Bay Citizen) the phantom rail would not affect any trains I run, and would be better for any other vehicles I put through the area. Not sure about others (Radioactiv? Holocluck?)
[14:09]	Hilary Sikorsky 	adding rez areas is not a technically challenging issue, just time consuming
[14:09]	Caliburn Susanto 	/ Totally agrees that region and parcel owners in an affected area have the final say.
[14:09]	Marianne McCann 	June? You'rs also a Bay Citizen, no?
[14:09]	Michael Linden 	Better sharing of the road parcels.
[14:09]	Kitto Flora 	phatim 'guide' markers on roads would be a good thing! Make em look like cats eyes markers
[14:09]	Radioactive Rosca 	i think you have reason, Mary
[14:09]	June Trefoil 	Yes
[14:09]	Catgirl Hian 	mew :)
[14:09]	Catgirl Hian 	meow!!
[14:10]	Stryker Jenkins 	ok... Moving right along...
[14:10]	Michael Linden 	I'm sure the Bay City folks wouldn't mind ...
[14:10]	June Trefoil 	thining along the same lines as yoou Mari
[14:10]	Marianne McCann 	Would such otherwise affect the existing Bay City Trolley system and its waypoints, Michael?
[14:10]	Sylvan Mole 	the phyical train club of BC will whine! kidding
[14:10]	Stryker Jenkins 	I am hearing no formal objecten to the idea to make the Bay City Harbor Rail network with Phantom Guides
[14:10]	Michael Linden 	Not at all.
[14:10]	Marianne McCann 	Then I don't see an issue
[14:10]	Mavromichali Szondi 	nods - so it would seem
[14:10]	Radioactive Rosca 	let's do a try, Michael (and a underwater tunnel between Bay City and the Atoll)... lol
[14:10]	Kitto Flora 	Did anyone here say theat they are still running a physically guided loco? I didnt hear such...
[14:10]	SkyBlue Earthboy 	anyone here from bay city?
[14:10]	Marianne McCann 	(Bah, unwaterwater tunnels, Bah I say!)
[14:10]	Marianne McCann 	raises hand
''
[14:11]	Stryker Jenkins 	Are there any other questions for Micheal at this point in Time?
[14:11]	Fenix Eldritch 	ditto
[14:11]	Hilary Sikorsky 	has a few physically guided trains but hasn't used them in ages
''
[14:11]	June Trefoil 	a few of us Skyblue
[14:11]	Stryker Jenkins 	looks at Kitto
''
[14:11]	Sylvan Mole 	((i like the underwater tunnel idea, i just dont see it conected to BC.))
[14:11]	Radioactive Rosca 	I have 2 plots at Bay City, Sky
[14:11]	Catgirl Hian 	i only run phisic loco, if i cant run at the slrr sytem
[14:11]	Holocluck Henly 	is from bay city
''
[14:12]	SkyBlue Earthboy 	i have a suggestion
[14:12]	Kitto Flora 	I'd like to hear Michael's comments on the recent "appropriation" by LL of the track on the ONSR extention.
[14:12]	Fenix Eldritch 	For BC, I imagined a brridge something like this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poughkeepsie_Bridge
[14:12]	Mavromichali Szondi 	It's only Bay City, catgirl.. the rest of SLRR would be unchanged
[14:12]	Michael Linden 	Just to repeat: there's no plan to change the SLRR network on the Mainland.
[14:12]	Michael Linden 	Ah ha: the ONSR.
[14:12]	Hilary Sikorsky 	Bay City has a lovely causeway, why not just extend it and put a few movable sections in? much more attractive than a tunnel
[14:12]	Radioactive Rosca 	why not, Sylvan? Using the new openspace water SIM's we could still have both the tunnel and the ferry
[14:12]	Stryker Jenkins 	People... Micheal has the floor about the ONSR issue raised by Kitto
[14:12]	Michael Linden 	We've been cleaning up the ownership of objects on Maintenance land in the snow-regions.
[14:13]	Sylvan Mole 	personaly, underwater tunnel doesnt match the BC1940s deco theme. =)
[14:13]	Marianne McCann 	That would be my preference as wlel, Hilary and Fenix.
[14:13]	Kitto Flora 	wHAT DOES "CLEANING UP" MEAN?
[14:13]	Kitto Flora 	Ooopps sry for caps
[14:13]	Michael Linden 	There are some, uh, very old Linden accounts that didn't have autoreturn every affecting them.
[14:13]	Pine Martinek 	Is there any plan to change the SLRR network on the Mainland? kidding
[14:13]	Radioactive Rosca 	whispers: I rest my case
''
[14:13]	Ralph Pootawn 	yes what does cleaning up mean
[14:13]	Michael Linden 	Eric Linden, for one.
[14:13]	Mavromichali Szondi 	aah
[14:13]	Mavromichali Szondi 	that figures
[14:13]	Stryker Jenkins 	People... Micheal has the floor about the ONSR issue raised by Kitto
[14:13]	Michael Linden 	The older regions are a patchwork of object ownership, much of which isn't "share with group".
[14:14]	Michael Linden 	Makes parcel management difficult.
[14:14]	Ralph Pootawn 	hmm yes i see
[14:14]	Michael Linden 	I think it was me that snagged your prims.
[14:14]	Stryker Jenkins 	But takeing objects like was done braeks management of them
[14:14]	Michael Linden 	When I was but a pup, I was told "never ever let Residents into the Maintenance group".
[14:14]	Michael Linden 	Though clearly other departments thought otherwise!
[14:15]	Noir Alter 	there one thing want know if line from bay city to atoll opens will Cecopa sim be cleand up? be cose every time try drive train in that sim say sim is full
[14:15]	Kitto Flora 	The "appropriated" tracks have been in my posession since I placed them 2 years ago. At that time I was told that LL could not take them over as they were built by a (mere) resident. Now suddenly they have been taken. Along with the signals
[14:15]	Michael Linden 	I'll get the objects back into your possession, Kitto.
[14:15]	Stryker Jenkins 	cool!... I think that solves that question
[14:15]	Mavromichali Szondi 	well technically anything is appropriateable
[14:16]	Michael Linden 	We just have to get together about that. I don't have a "give stuff to Kitto" command, heh.
[14:16]	Kitto Flora 	TY Michael - theres two tickets on the ... problem. No useful response yet.
[14:16]	Michael Linden 	Busy with a big project this week, but yes, saw the tickets.
[14:16]	Stryker Jenkins 	on the subject of support tickets... Michael can you explain how residents can best get in contact with you about SLRR / Rial / Transport issues?
[14:17]	Mavromichali Szondi 	big meshy project?
[14:17]	Mavromichali Szondi 	:P
[14:17]	Hilary Sikorsky 	so it was basically a quick solution to a technical issue that will be resolved more satisfactorily down the road?
[14:17]	Michael Linden 	The best way is to file a support ticket.
[14:17]	Michael Linden 	Yes, Hilary.
[14:17]	Kitto Flora 	Actually - there was a big court case about LL taking residents objects several years back. The result of which is the unfortunate situation we have today
[14:17]	Michael Linden 	"LL owned land" is I think the best one for me.
[14:17]	Holocluck Henly 	there is no longer a category for ldpw support in the premiere.
[14:17]	Pine Martinek 	I think Michael is wise enough to avoid any mesh teams
[14:17]	Holocluck Henly 	ah ok. well that hasnt worked for me yet
[14:17]	Michael Linden 	Well, we're lucky the objects weren't returned, Kitto.
[14:17]	June Trefoil 	I think it's Land/Regionn then land/parcel issues now.
[14:18]	Marianne McCann 	Land > Linden Owne Land Issues
[14:18]	Michael Linden 	Land/Parcel is for buying abandoned land.
[14:18]	Holocluck Henly 	June i think thats for personal property
[14:18]	Stryker Jenkins 	I think your right June
[14:18]	Michael Linden 	Yes, that one, Marianne.
[14:18]	Hilary Sikorsky 	no need to muddy the waters with discussion about eminent domain then ;)
[14:18]	June Trefoil 	:)
[14:18]	Holocluck Henly 	oh wait
[14:18]	Sylvan Mole 	Mari is ticket expert
[14:18]	Holocluck Henly 	the ticketing is broken
[14:18]	Marianne McCann 	I have a bit of a rut worn on that path...
[14:18]	Holocluck Henly 	i should mention I tried LL owned land and the form came back to a new screen that a subject wasnt selected
[14:18]	Pine Martinek 	I assume if you file a ticket uynder the wrong category, it will find its way to the right people
[14:19]	Mavromichali Szondi 	My problem was always finding the file a ticket button
[14:19]	Holocluck Henly 	and no longer a drop down option
[14:19]	LoveWitch Silverweb 	is there notecard on ticketing?
[14:19]	Stryker Jenkins 	Does anyone have any more questions for Micheal to answer before we continue to the next topic of this meeting?
[14:19]	Marianne McCann 	holo - I've seen that glitch. Go back a screen and resubmit
[14:19]	Michael Linden 	The customer support people will forward them to me.
[14:19]	Yavanna Llanfair 	Holo did you include an image? I think it is broken if you include an image. If you don't, it seems OK (and you can attach later)
[14:19]	Michael Linden 	You can also e-mail me if it's super-urgent:
[14:19]	Michael Linden 	michaelb@lindenlab.com
[14:19]	Holocluck Henly 	okay Michael. so we'll use any topic
[14:19]	Michael Linden 	Not the best way: IM or notecard or texture.
[14:19]	SkyBlue Earthboy 	Yes
[14:19]	SkyBlue Earthboy 	on the LL map roads and rails look much the same - which can be confusing
[14:19]	Sylvan Mole 	smoke siganls
[14:20]	Holocluck Henly 	before overloading your inbox i'll see what selection on the form works
[14:20]	Hilary Sikorsky 	hopes it will never be THAT urgent *smiles*
''
[14:20]	Marianne McCann 	Yavanna - is that it? Glad I've not had to attach too many of my "circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one" images lately
[14:20]	Michael Linden 	My message delivery gets capped all the time, I get lots of objects sent and returned.
[14:20]	Catgirl Hian 	most rails are darker gray
[14:20]	SkyBlue Earthboy 	really?
[14:20]	Michael Linden 	Remember there's a 256 item limit on your "inbox", including objects, IMs, etc.
[14:20]	Stryker Jenkins 	OK... Thank you Michael...
[14:20]	followmeimthe Piedpiper	Mari knows Alices resteraunt:)
[14:20]	Catgirl Hian 	never had big trouble to see rails from roads
[14:20]	Hilary Sikorsky 	Sky, it depends on the roads. There are a number of different surface textures used for roads
[14:20]	Michael Linden 	Thanks all!
[14:20]	Marianne McCann 	smiles
''
[14:20]	Stryker Jenkins 	Lets move to the next topic on the Agenda
[14:20]	Holocluck Henly 	i think most of us do heeh
[14:21]	Stryker Jenkins 	5. General SLRR discussion topics
[14:21]	Stryker Jenkins 	- Open discussion: Public (automated) trains on the SLRR,
[14:21]	Catgirl Hian 	Thank you Michael
[14:21]	Stryker Jenkins 	There have been at times a very heated debate on the Forums and Blog about the Public (automated) Trains and other vehicles that run along the SLRR.
[14:21]	Stryker Jenkins 	This is your opportunity to discuss it. I do hope you can all respect the opinions of others, and not get into a fight over something that in essence we, as a user group, can do nothing about.
[14:21]	Marianne McCann 	Ugh... the drunken cars
[14:21]	followmeimthe Piedpiper	you mean spammed road vehicles that shouldn't be on the rails in the 1st place??
[14:21]	Holocluck Henly 	I'm against them. The point of deferring to residential use was to not have automated cars
[14:21]	Mavromichali Szondi 	I have quite a fondness for the drunken carss
[14:21]	Holocluck Henly 	here here Pip!
[14:21]	Catgirl Hian 	all that rail taxi's and icecars are a bit much
[14:21]	Ralph Pootawn 	i think we need them
[14:22]	Karima Hoisan 	They take away the enjoyment of a nice train ride
[14:22]	SkyBlue Earthboy 	and soooo many trolley buses
[14:22]	followmeimthe Piedpiper	why Ralph?
[14:22]	Stryker Jenkins 	I have been autherised to say something about the automated vehicals that AnnMarie Otoole is running
[14:22]	Catgirl Hian 	that red trolley's are ok to me
[14:22]	Holocluck Henly 	theyre all a massive violation of so many terms
[14:22]	June Trefoil 	I don;t mind them.
[14:22]	Caliburn Susanto 	/ My only comment is they seem silly. Waste of resources. And nobody cares if the area looks "busy" with traffic, we want to use the roads for our vehicles.
[14:22]	Catgirl Hian 	people can ride on it and get intrest in railway
[14:22]	Pine Martinek 	I agree, they are a pain, but unless they violate TOS, then there is nothing we can do.
[14:22]	Holocluck Henly 	incl that trolley nearby with the "Second Life Railway" sign on it
[14:22]	Yavanna Llanfair 	I have had a number of people ask me if I will put my pods on the rails. For the record, I will say that I don't think they belong on rails. If I need the route, they might go above the rails, but clearly out of the way of trains. It seems wrong to me to put non-trains on the rails
[14:22]	Holocluck Henly 	Pine: THEY DO
[14:22]	Hrdtop75 Deluxe 	I don't mind tthe trams, cars and trucks are abit to unrealistic.
[14:22]	Stryker Jenkins 	AnnMarie is in the process of transforming her automated vehicals to train vehicals when they enter the SLRR
[14:22]	Hilary Sikorsky 	I have no objection in principle to vehicles without an operator, but at the very least they should be scripted not to interfere with other vehicles on the line
[14:23]	Holocluck Henly 	just by bypassing autoretun mechanism - thats the most basic violation
[14:23]	Marianne McCann 	It is hard for me to keep a civil tongue about them, but I will say that the one thing that puts one person's apart from others is that they have o set route, and therfore end up in places not intended for them. Not just rail and water, but the bridle path and in other Mole and Linden builds never entended for such (and where vehicles running into random strangers would indeed be "griefing")
[14:23]	Stryker Jenkins 	at the moment... anyone can run automated vehicals on the LL owned land
[14:23]	Marianne McCann 	No* set route
[14:23]	Catgirl Hian 	indeed, trams and trains ok, but cars and trucks no
[14:23]	Pine Martinek 	if they violate TOS, then file a ticket, if enough are filed, LL may limit them for each owner
[14:23]	Stryker Jenkins 	there are no restrictions in place at all
[14:23]	followmeimthe Piedpiper	LL must have had dozens of tickets
[14:23]	Hrdtop75 Deluxe 	agrees with catgirl
[14:23]	Holocluck Henly 	Hilary how many useless unmanned vehicles should occupy the rails for the enjoyment of no one and use resources and obstruct paths before they arent acceptable?
[14:24]	June Trefoil 	my only objection is parcel encroachment when they get stuck on private property
[14:24]	followmeimthe Piedpiper	but nothing done!
[14:24]	Ralph Pootawn 	i enjoy them
[14:24]	Stryker Jenkins 	the automated vehicals and the tram services are NOT a tos at the moment
[14:24]	Hilary Sikorsky 	straw man Holo
[14:24]	Ralph Pootawn 	i like to ride them
[14:24]	Marianne McCann 	It is clear that the owner of one particualr automated conveyance has been highly resistant to any suggestions she limit or change the vehicles.
[14:24]	followmeimthe Piedpiper	how selfish can you get?
[14:24]	June Trefoil 	stryker, what was the imrovement being worked on?
[14:24]	Holocluck Henly 	I put together a petition for one series of autovehicles and while i wish I had a hundred, I know most people who would put their avatar name to it dont know of it
[14:24]	Marianne McCann 	Stryker - as it stands, no, but the actions of some of these may well be.
[14:25]	Hilary Sikorsky 	the only basic restriction needed is that they should not interfere with others, obstructing paths is interfering
[14:25]	Pine Martinek 	they are a TOS violation when they pile up, fill sims, and cause log-outs
[14:25]	SkyBlue Earthboy 	VRCs making it possible for everyone to have a locomotive has made the trams redundant
[14:25]	Holocluck Henly 	Hilary: THEY DO
[14:25]	Holocluck Henly 	tree in the forest
[14:25]	Kitto Flora 	If the Gov. provides 'roads' that are free acess for all, and 'cars' are dirt cheap you will get traffic jams. What did RL do? Introduce traffic lights, freeway entry metering....
[14:25]	Hilary Sikorsky 	then they are in violation of the ToS
[14:25]	Stryker Jenkins 	Less vehicals and transformation of cars into Trains when entering the SLRR network
[14:25]	Mavromichali Szondi 	We have caledonian rezzable airships around somewhere that run on LL roads - they are temp atm so if you don't sit in them, they don't last long
[14:25]	Marianne McCann 	spamming, possible "ad farming" violations, obstruction, striking others, shooting at others, getting stuck on parcels causing object littering, etc.
[14:25]	Holocluck Henly 	if one person every 5 hours rides one and hundreds have spammed the rails in that time, obstructed views, crashed people, lagged regions, well are they useful?
[14:26]	followmeimthe Piedpiper	so we get cheap crappy automated trains instad of cars now?
[14:26]	Mavromichali Szondi 	and you have to touch to rez one
[14:26]	Caliburn Susanto 	/ I've been riding a motorcyle on several occasions and had a tour car come up from behind and knock me off the road. No big trauma, but mildly annoying.
[14:26]	Stryker Jenkins 	Pine... You are revering to an SL bug displaying many cars pileing up... THAT BUG has nothing to do with the actuall vehicals and is a know viewer side bug
[14:26]	DOUGIE Flossberg 	Why have you flooded the SLRR with freebie "ghost trains?"
[14:26]	Moundsa Mayo 	AR when you are assaulted.
[14:26]	Stryker Jenkins 	no additional load is placed on the sima when that happens
[14:26]	Marianne McCann 	Caliburn - by the same tiken, I've been pushed off the bridlepath a couple times by the blasted things
[14:26]	Holocluck Henly 	Pip exactly. originally this was supposed to be LL running PERIODICALLY and no doubt well spaced apart schedulewise their OWN trains. the move was changed to NOT have that
[14:26]	Moundsa Mayo 	What's wrong with freebie, DOUGIE?
[14:27]	June Trefoil 	Styker, cna the cars be kep off certain routes?
[14:27]	Hilary Sikorsky 	all of which falls under the general principle
[14:27]	Holocluck Henly 	stryker you live along the road of them
[14:27]	DOUGIE Flossberg 	wheb the person leaves his train it just sits there
[14:27]	Holocluck Henly 	and have a normal computer instead of a gamer's supercomputer
[14:27]	Stryker Jenkins 	I don't think so June... and why should they... they are running on Public land that everyone can use
[14:27]	Holocluck Henly 	you'll fell the difference believe me
[14:27]	Holocluck Henly 	feel
[14:27]	Stryker Jenkins 	(mind you... I have so my doubts about them myself too)
[14:27]	DOUGIE Flossberg 	maybe guys need to put in a selfdestruct you
[14:27]	Mavromichali Szondi 	It's difficult to control the actions of someone else's vehicles...
[14:27]	June Trefoil 	the cars on route 6 is very awkward, it's too narorow for passing.
[14:28]	Holocluck Henly 	theyre not a body though. that's the fundamental difference. the enjoyment of NO ONE
[14:28]	followmeimthe Piedpiper	I put it to the meeting that we have a vote on this issue
[14:28]	Moundsa Mayo 	That's an SL problem, DOUGIE. It happens with commercial for-profit trains, too, but there are so few of them it's not visible.
[14:28]	Pine Martinek 	I think we should just keep filing AR under valid TOS, and hope LL speaks to the owners about limits
[14:28]	Marianne McCann 	Exactly, June (Route 6/Bridlepath)
[14:28]	Michael Linden 	Mild note: keep in mind that physics is handled server-side, not on your computer.
[14:28]	Mavromichali Szondi 	but what is the question, piper?
[14:28]	Stryker Jenkins 	Dougie... when a Resident crashes while riding the train all connection between the sim / viewer is lost with the train. I.e. the train does not know there is no more rider on the VRC scripted trains
[14:28]	Holocluck Henly 	*IF* there was a rezzer and someone clicked to ride and not one automatically ooutput, then you have a use, a purpose and a service
[14:28]	Pine Martinek 	SL is not a democracy, votes don't work
[14:28]	followmeimthe Piedpiper	those blessed spammed road vehicles, should they be allowed on the SLRR?
[14:28]	Stryker Jenkins 	in other words ... an other SL bug we can do nothing about
[14:29]	Mavromichali Szondi 	re we expecting LL to have to ratify each wannabe providor of vehicles?
[14:29]	Sylvan Mole 	is there anything that could be changed on these automatic rides that would clam things? make them phantom, sense other trains and move? etc?
[14:29]	Stryker Jenkins 	they are phanotm Sylvan
[14:29]	Mavromichali Szondi 	As previously mentioned our airships are touch-to-rez and temp-on-rez
[14:29]	Mavromichali Szondi 	I think that's a good substitute
[14:29]	Michael Linden 	Mild note #2: I don't see the mainline SLRR going to double-track anytime soon!
[14:29]	Yavanna Llanfair 	Some are not phantom- the older ones I think are not
[14:29]	Marianne McCann 	Again, the obvious difference (to me) is that these are free roaming, no set path, vehicles that are set loose. It's not like a waypoint system, and is not like a "runaway train"
[14:30]	Hilary Sikorsky 	good point Mari
[14:30]	Mavromichali Szondi 	nods, mari
[14:30]	Holocluck Henly 	well lemme tell you folks. Before i put a door in my diner, i had a dalek that wandered out and when it hit the road, bam it was returned. The vehciles on road and rail are not. Think about it. LL's policy of unattended objects is already being violated
[14:30]	Marianne McCann 	It's not *just* a railroad issue, but a waterway issue, a footpath issue, an infohub issue, etc.
[14:30]	Moundsa Mayo 	If a vehicle impedes your motion or assaults you, AR the owner.
[14:30]	June Trefoil 	the scripting method is interesting - lok=oks like it's 'finding' the LL land to stay.
[14:30]	followmeimthe Piedpiper	my main issue with them is that they are spawned , with or without a driver, and then dont die
[14:30]	June Trefoil 	er, looks
[14:30]	Kitto Flora 	Are there still SLRR parcels that do not have a 'return time' set on them?
[14:30]	Stryker Jenkins 	Michael... hearing this discussion... do YOU or LL see any reason to setup more rules about Automated vehicals?
[14:30]	Moundsa Mayo 	Holocluck, the presence server often thinks a rider is still on the vehicle.
[14:30]	Holocluck Henly 	MM we have - you know the trolley and the others have a stack yea high in their abuse histories
[14:30]	Michael Linden 	There should no tbe, Kitto.
[14:31]	Pine Martinek 	LL's policy of unattended objects = ?
[14:31]	Mavromichali Szondi 	I think lack of DIE is the issue?
[14:31]	Michael Linden 	Report any Linden-owned parcels with a non-zero return time.
[14:31]	Stryker Jenkins 	Kitto all LL SLRR land is set to about 10 min
[14:31]	Hilary Sikorsky 	actually Piper, putting it like that makes it clear they're in violtion of the ToS
[14:31]	Michael Linden 	Me: I can't say anything about that, STryker.
[14:31]	Sylvan Mole 	oh got it, automated trains need to Die on touch =D solved
[14:31]	Holocluck Henly 	I met two NEW people this morning who found out about my blogging about the scourgemobiles and trolleys
[14:31]	Mavromichali Szondi 	I don't mind if they spawn and run it's the leaving them around for ever
[14:31]	Holocluck Henly 	lol sylvan
[14:31]	followmeimthe Piedpiper	I'm sure they are, anyother similar thing would consitute griefing
[14:32]	Michael Linden 	SLRR parcel autoreturn time is sorta-kinda relative to the track length in that parcel.
[14:32]	Kitto Flora 	OK. Well if you can trap an annoying free-range vehicle in a parcel for 10 mins it will *poof*
[14:32]	Stryker Jenkins 	yeah... but automated trains do not detect that the driver is gone when they crash Sylavn... so they do not know WHEN TO DIE
[14:32]	Michael Linden 	10 minutes for a full region crossing.
[14:32]	Holocluck Henly 	Policy of unattended objects. rezzed objects nor worn or ridden. Pine it's called autoreturn
[14:32]	Sylvan Mole 	iwas being serious, it would work, with the caveat that if someone is riding it it wont die
[14:32]	followmeimthe Piedpiper	10 mins is far too long
[14:32]	Mavromichali Szondi 	you've not driven in lag, piper?
[14:32]	Moundsa Mayo 	Should be able to stop and look around for a while, at least.
[14:32]	Michael Linden 	Well, we could shorten it, but people want to stop, yeah.
[14:32]	Marianne McCann 	So vehicle shaped thing that autospawns and is let loose to roam all over the mainland = okay. lolcubes that do the same thing, not okay (and yes, I am construction a strawman worthy of Ray Bolger)
[14:33]	Holocluck Henly 	My petition has the only real compliant suggestion - note it isnt about wiping them out. just compliance with terms. the rails are for RESIDENTS not PRIMS
[14:33]	followmeimthe Piedpiper	yes, but then I'm on the engine
[14:33]	Radioactive Rosca 	10 minutes is god, when we see domething we like, we go out of the train and return some minutes later to it
[14:33]	Mavromichali Szondi 	I'm with the Mole - die except if driver
[14:33]	Holocluck Henly 	no matter who owns the vehciles, it isnt a resident using it
[14:33]	Pine Martinek 	I had a script wriiten with a die timer when all avatars are un-seated if anyone wants it
[14:33]	Radioactive Rosca 	is good, not God
[14:33]	June Trefoil 	I can;t support stopping all automation.
[14:33]	Stryker Jenkins 	lol
[14:33]	Michael Linden 	If we changed road and rail parcels to not allow "object entry" that decision would have to come from the Community team, not from the DPW.
[14:33]	Mavromichali Szondi 	my own choppers when you get ejected on a bad crossing will IM you location and then delete after a couple of minutes of you not getting back in
[14:33]	Marianne McCann 	onrez } lldie(); }
[14:34]	Hilary Sikorsky 	disallowing object entry would kill a lot of legitimate uses
[14:34]	Holocluck Henly 	yeh somenoe in bay city has a thing you click and ride a car. you get out it poofs. cubey terra's are also temp and most of them fly over his own land before the poof
[14:34]	Michael Linden 	Probably, yes, Hilary.
[14:34]	Stryker Jenkins 	anyway... my personal fav. solution would be trains that get rezed-on-demand from station. Not automated vehicals
[14:34]	Mavromichali Szondi 	That'd be the ticket, Pine
[14:34]	followmeimthe Piedpiper	rezzed on demand and poof after
[14:34]	Marianne McCann 	Ya, Pip
[14:34]	followmeimthe Piedpiper	bit like me really lol
[14:34]	Holocluck Henly 	here here srtryker. that should be THE policy of resident vehicles
[14:34]	Pine Martinek 	LL won't change the object entry, I think we should just keep filing tickets
[14:35]	Mavromichali Szondi 	I know we are looking at releasing auto airships at some future point - I wouldn't want it to fall foul of new rules
[14:35]	Moundsa Mayo 	Pine, that does not work if the presence server does not recognize that the driver has left the vehicle. that's been extensively tested.
[14:35]	Michael Linden 	Mild note #3: one area the Lab won't act on is the "appropriateness of appearance".
[14:35]	Yavanna Llanfair 	I have to say that if there is a discussion on not allowing object entry on roads, I want to be in on it. I don't think that is for here though
[14:35]	Pine Martinek 	...make sure they violate ROS thogh
[14:35]	Stryker Jenkins 	I know the Duo Trams from Randal did work On Rez-on-demand for a short while...
[14:35]	Marianne McCann 	I actually don't mind some of the spawning systems that are out there, actually. The planes at Abbotts, for one. But those autodie pretty quickly if no rider
[14:35]	Stryker Jenkins 	but then no one was using them anymore more because there where only 2 rezzors
[14:35]	Marianne McCann 	They don't randomly fly all over the mainland
[14:35]	Michael Linden 	If a train looks like a potato with twelve noses and "eat at joes" written on it, that's fine with us (TOS-ly speaking).
[14:35]	Holocluck Henly 	you dont think annmarie has a thousand or two yet? Not just from me or people I know. regardless of her claim how popular they are to like two people
[14:35]	Holocluck Henly 	thousand or two ARs sorry - lag
[14:36]	Sylvan Mole 	im so making that train now Michael
[14:36]	Mavromichali Szondi 	lol
[14:36]	Marianne McCann 	Tater Train FTW
[14:36]	Hrdtop75 Deluxe 	lol
[14:36]	Catgirl Hian 	hehe
[14:36]	Ralph Pootawn 	lol
[14:36]	Karima Hoisan 	laughs
''
[14:36]	Holocluck Henly 	I'm not even talking about craftsmanship except the use of 16 scripts in one vehicle, with several stacked up riding through a sim
[14:36]	SkyBlue Earthboy 	can i have one, pleeeeez
[14:36]	Stryker Jenkins 	OK... as you can see the positions about this issue are very different...
[14:36]	SkyBlue Earthboy 	:-D
[14:36]	Mavromichali Szondi 	so perhaps we are saying that anyone who wants to use the LL routes should at least look at DIE features ?
[14:36]	Stryker Jenkins 	and we will not find a solution that works
[14:36]	LoveWitch Silverweb 	is there a registry for trains in SLRR?
[14:36]	Holocluck Henly 	The Silver Spud
[14:36]	Hilary Sikorsky 	in the final analysis it's really a littering issue, the only difference is the litter roams around ;)
[14:36]	Stryker Jenkins 	simply because they run on Publick land
[14:37]	Kitto Flora 	Only 16 scripts?
[14:37]	Marianne McCann 	True, Hilary. Evading autoreturn, essentially
[14:37]	Stryker Jenkins 	We can only hope that the users of Automated trains look at this transcript and take note and make some changes
[14:37]	Holocluck Henly 	So tell me, why IS it that an object (like the dalek) which also does object entry gets returned but these folks' nuisances arent. you dont think there's a script in place to suppress that or fool the sim?
[14:37]	Mavromichali Szondi 	a pile of roaming spuds... - looks at bulding a giant roadshide chipping machine
[14:37]	followmeimthe Piedpiper	LOL stryker, and pigs might fly
[14:37]	Stryker Jenkins 	either cutting the number of trains ... or the way they are removed
[14:38]	Holocluck Henly 	Pip? Pigs have flown
[14:38]	Holocluck Henly 	This is SL
[14:38]	Holocluck Henly 	:P
[14:38]	Mavromichali Szondi 	nods
[14:38]	followmeimthe Piedpiper	you know what I meant holo
[14:38]	Moundsa Mayo 	All you have to do to prevent autoreturn is cross a parcel or region boundary before autoreturn triggers.
[14:38]	Holocluck Henly 	yes yes
[14:38]	Michael Linden 	"Disturbing the peace : unfair use of region resources" ... NOT that I'm saying that's the issue, but might be a more appropriate category to use for non-stuck trains.
[14:38]	Marianne McCann 	True, Pip. At least one 9the one) proiment user of these devices has made it clear she has no intention of limiting her use in anyw ay
[14:38]	Stryker Jenkins 	On the other hand... I know there are some very crafty scripters in the audiance... so maybe you can come up with solutions that help them !!!
[14:39]	Holocluck Henly 	weapons on LL, pushing, encroachment, unfair use of region resources, disturbing the peace
[14:39]	Stryker Jenkins 	I think we have to work together as a Resident User group to solve some of these issues
[14:39]	Holocluck Henly 	and a few that escape me
[14:39]	Michael Linden 	Camping bots get hit with the "unfair use of system resources" issue; and real-estate bots.
[14:39]	Mavromichali Szondi 	yes
[14:39]	Pine Martinek 	yes, if you file an AR on them, make sure you have a TOS violation
[14:39]	Stryker Jenkins 	LETS MOVE ON TO THE NEXT TOPIC!
[14:39]	Sylvan Mole 	yay!
[14:39]	Mavromichali Szondi 	It's a resident -complain issue - complain enough in tickets/ars and it will get more airtime
[14:39]	Stryker Jenkins 	6. GSLR, ONSR and other railway lines
[14:39]	Stryker Jenkins 	Is there anyone who would like to share any opinions, thoughts, ideas or comments about any of the other Railways and Transportation solutions in SL?
[14:39]	Holocluck Henly 	pine theyve been filed by hundreds of people times yea many times
[14:39]	Holocluck Henly 	listens
''
[14:40]	Michael Linden 	I promise to fix the ONSR, and the Nova Albion trolley for that matter.
[14:40]	Holocluck Henly 	ONSR what dpes that stand for exactly
[14:40]	Sylvan Mole 	yay @ NA trolley!
[14:40]	Stryker Jenkins 	Dougie... do you have anything to say on behalve of the SLRR Rail Group?
[14:40]	Hilary Sikorsky 	Okemo Nakiska and Southern Railway
[14:40]	Holocluck Henly 	can the teen trolley be adapted or is it a diff sim type on teen NA
[14:40]	Moundsa Mayo 	If hundreds have been filed without apparent effect there must not be a CS/TOS violation issue.
[14:40]	Marianne McCann 	as a bit of a Nova Albion as well, the trolley news is good news. Any time line?
[14:40]	Holocluck Henly 	well thats the baffling thing MM theyre blatant violations
[14:40]	Hilary Sikorsky 	once upon a time that was the scope of our ambitions, to reach the south coast
[14:40]	Michael Linden 	Maybe the teen trolley can adapt, it's the same script, but there's issues with the physics of the road down to Luna.
[14:41]	Stryker Jenkins 	Gooed question Mari...
[14:41]	Michael Linden 	And the NA trolley script is ooooold.
[14:41]	Holocluck Henly 	the road to luna is different?
[14:41]	Stryker Jenkins 	The VRC would love the Nova Albion tram resorted with new scripts
[14:41]	Marianne McCann 	No road to Luna on the TG line
[14:41]	Holocluck Henly 	ahh
[14:41]	Michael Linden 	It's quite ... bizarre. Trolleys got stuck there all the time.
[14:41]	Sylvan Mole 	the non teen road is wrinkly
[14:41]	Stryker Jenkins 	or perhaps as part of the Bay City Rail network???
[14:41]	Michael Linden 	Between the road surface and the wire, heh.
[14:41]	Marianne McCann 	I know the Nova Albion Preservation Society and the City Slickers want to see it restored to running condition as well
[14:41]	Holocluck Henly 	yes my first experience with the NA trolley was such
[14:41]	Kitto Flora 	The old tNA trolley is/was 'physically guided'
[14:41]	Marianne McCann 	But as its own entity
[14:42]	Kitto Flora 	Main problem is that the overhead has been set phantom in one area
[14:42]	Marianne McCann 	Kitto - yes. With an overhead guide, of all things
[14:42]	Holocluck Henly 	going all the way to the welcome area from luna? thats not easy with the simload near the WA
[14:42]	Michael Linden 	The teen trolley runs pretty well, but it doesn't have to go down to Luna.
[14:42]	Kitto Flora 	phantom guide and physically guided dont work well
[14:42]	Michael Linden 	Anyway: NA Trolley is on the list.
[14:43]	Stryker Jenkins 	anymore details than that?
[14:43]	Holocluck Henly 	it would be a very short line if it didnt go to the mall
[14:43]	Michael Linden 	The roads in Nova Albion need work in general.
[14:43]	Stryker Jenkins 	it has been on the list for a few years now
[14:43]	Michael Linden 	I don't expect the fix to come soon.
[14:43]	Stryker Jenkins 	awwww
[14:43]	Michael Linden 	It's always more than halfway down the list, heh.
[14:43]	Hilary Sikorsky 	it's too bad the NA and BC systems are incompatible, they're literally only a sim apart
[14:43]	Holocluck Henly 	heh
[14:43]	Stryker Jenkins 	looks very disapointed at Michael
''
[14:43]	Holocluck Henly 	well we can look forward to it in a couple years
[14:43]	Michael Linden 	Bay City trolley runs in a straight line, on the level ... hint, hint.
[14:44]	Kitto Flora 	Contract it out :)
[14:44]	Stryker Jenkins 	well transform the compleet network on Bay City to the new rail network? is that an option?
[14:44]	Mavromichali Szondi 	Can you not hire at zero cost?
[14:44]	Michael Linden 	Getting all the content into the same groups and ownership has been a chore .... same issue as why the ONSR stuff got grabbed.
[14:44]	Michael Linden 	Maybe, STryker.
[14:44]	Holocluck Henly 	had his head turned. is there suddeny a problem with the BC trolley?
''
[14:44]	Mavromichali Szondi 	alternatively get it built and donated?
[14:45]	Marianne McCann 	No problems I've seen....
[14:45]	Holocluck Henly 	good
[14:45]	Hilary Sikorsky 	hire at zero cost is just another way to say volunteer, which Michael has already said they won't
[14:45]	Michael Linden 	Bay City trolley is fine, but it's not very extendable to corners and switches.
[14:45]	Michael Linden 	Legal issues with volunteers.
[14:45]	Mavromichali Szondi 	oh no volunteers don't have paperwork
[14:45]	Holocluck Henly 	it shouldnt be
[14:45]	Michael Linden 	We can't even use Resident content paid for with Linden dollars.
[14:45]	Fenix Eldritch 	I dunno... I see the ferry plowing through land on a somewhat regular basis :P
[14:45]	Mavromichali Szondi 	companies and sole traders have paperwork and tax codes
[14:45]	Holocluck Henly 	the long island railroad isnt the subway isnt amtrak isnt NJT
[14:45]	Michael Linden 	Not for permanent use on Linden-owned land.
[14:46]	Mavromichali Szondi 	donated items?
[14:46]	Stryker Jenkins 	ok... any other rail networks or groups who like to say their bit here???
[14:46]	Michael Linden 	Partly to do with the definition of "work for hire" I think.
[14:46]	Michael Linden 	Me not lawyer, not have good info on subject.
[14:46]	Kitto Flora 	points to earlier comments about the legal issues and the sorry state that LL's lawyers hhave gotten SL into.
''
[14:46]	SkyBlue Earthboy 	i wish i could use my locos on caledon's network
[14:46]	Pine Martinek 	copyright issues as well, I assume
[14:46]	followmeimthe Piedpiper	I'd like to make a small annoucement...
[14:46]	Michael Linden 	One thing brought up earlier: prims per parcel.
[14:46]	Michael Linden 	Go ahead, Follow.
[14:46]	Mavromichali Szondi 	time to change LL HQ to monrovia....
[14:46]	Mavromichali Szondi 	:P
[14:46]	Pine Martinek 	yes, vine needs more
[14:46]	Holocluck Henly 	listens to Pip
''
[14:47]	followmeimthe Piedpiper	the Lackawanna RR is now open for rezzing your trains on
[14:47]	followmeimthe Piedpiper	on the NY sims
[14:47]	Radioactive Rosca 	whispers: :-)
''
[14:47]	Ralph Pootawn 	awwwww yeah
[14:47]	followmeimthe Piedpiper	half the track is guided
[14:47]	Michael Linden 	Oh ho, where's that? GIve a landmark, dude!
[14:47]	Stryker Jenkins 	can you drop an SLURL in chat Follow
[14:47]	Mavromichali Szondi 	yay for rez points
[14:47]	Hilary Sikorsky 	isn't Avination based in Monrovia or some such place? ;)
[14:47]	Holocluck Henly 	i think kissena park is one sim but i havebt seen it in yrs
[14:47]	followmeimthe Piedpiper	the other half is awaiting a decition on what tour script we will use in future
[14:48]	followmeimthe Piedpiper	k Stryker one sec
[14:48]	Holocluck Henly 	nm kissena park looks solo
[14:48]	Michael Linden 	So: prims per SLRR parcel.
[14:49]	Michael Linden 	We didn't originally set it up for 255-per-parcel, but that'd be a good goal.
[14:49]	Hrdtop75 Deluxe 	How many currently?
[14:49]	Pine Martinek 	When we find a sim that is short on prims, how do we report? And can LL set a min. prims avail for rail sims?
[14:49]	Michael Linden 	File a ticket, Pine.
[14:49]	followmeimthe Piedpiper	http://slurl.com/secondlife/SouthernTier%20New%20York/128/128/2
[14:49]	Michael Linden 	Well, I think currently we have at least 90 free per SLRR.
[14:49]	Pine Martinek 	ok, can you work on setting a min?
[14:49]	Sylvan Mole 	are you saying you need 255 +255 per car?
[14:49]	followmeimthe Piedpiper	you rezz opposite the main station platform
[14:49]	Stryker Jenkins 	thanks for the Rail net link Follow
[14:50]	Michael Linden 	But I suppose we can roll along and look for any that don't have 256 prims available.
[14:50]	Pine Martinek 	Thomas is 81+24+24+27 now
[14:50]	Michael Linden 	I can't guarantee that, though.
[14:50]	Mavromichali Szondi 	255 prims seems a lot for anything not worn
[14:50]	Sylvan Mole 	ok, thanks Pine. =)
[14:50]	Michael Linden 	Linden land is restricted in the prim count just like anyone else.
[14:50]	Stryker Jenkins 	Full is Full I guess when it comes to pirms
[14:50]	Holocluck Henly 	wow that looks nothing like new york heh
[14:50]	Solonia Stenvaag 	255 + carriages :))
[14:51]	Stryker Jenkins 	Dougie... I know you have an event coming up... do you want inform the group about that?
[14:51]	Mavromichali Szondi 	isn't NY a large and varied state?
[14:51]	Michael Linden 	We are NOT gonna be able to guarantee that your train of six 255 prim carriages will fit!
[14:51]	Holocluck Henly 	well yeah but not where it has land like that
[14:51]	LoveWitch Silverweb 	NY has many railroads
[14:51]	Karima Hoisan 	DOUGIE might not be fully present atm
[14:51]	LoveWitch Silverweb 	sadly many not used
[14:51]	Michael Linden 	If someone wants to run along the SLRR and find parcels whick support less than 256 prims, file a ticket.
[14:51]	followmeimthe Piedpiper	well it's 16 sims Mavro...
[14:51]	Pine Martinek 	report any with less than 256 then? That will also give us a guideline when building trains
[14:51]	Mavromichali Szondi 	I meant in RL
[14:52]	Michael Linden 	Sure: I'd like to see how close we can get to that.
[14:52]	troy Waxen 	255 prims? and i thought i was going nuts on rolling stock prims.
[14:52]	Stryker Jenkins 	Do you want to say something on behalve of the SLRR Rail Group Karima?
[14:52]	Holocluck Henly 	what abouot attachable vehicles - how could that work with trains
[14:52]	Mavromichali Szondi 	I could rez an 8 storey house with that many prims
[14:52]	Michael Linden 	255 is less arbitrary than most numbers, in SL.
[14:52]	Holocluck Henly 	AMR uses attachable vehciles
[14:52]	Karima Hoisan 	NO, I think DOUGIE is here thank you
[14:52]	DOUGIE Flossberg 	train wars is our next event
[14:52]	Sylvan Mole 	mesh, and its magic physics will lower most train prim counts
[14:53]	Holocluck Henly 	ah there he is. train wars?
[14:53]	followmeimthe Piedpiper	looks forward to mesh
[14:53]	Mavromichali Szondi 	sounds like a lot of extra work to me
[14:53]	Kitto Flora 	train wars? Are sredding weapons and flamethrowers allowed?
[14:53]	Stryker Jenkins 	When is that event? can you tell more about that?
[14:53]	Kitto Flora 	*shredding
[14:53]	myuki Mills 	LOL
[14:53]	DOUGIE Flossberg 	bring your train and your favorite weapon
[14:53]	Holocluck Henly 	heh
[14:53]	Marianne McCann 	Trains Wars was good, but the prequels were too special effect heavy. /me winks
[14:53]	Pine Martinek 	we should organize a group later, divide the maps, and get all the prim counts in one note/ticket then?
[14:53]	Sylvan Mole 	nah, Mav, linking a simple physics shape to your prim train to lower its count will be easy =)
[14:53]	Hrdtop75 Deluxe 	sounds like fun. :)
[14:54]	Mavromichali Szondi 	making the shapes....
[14:54]	Mavromichali Szondi 	?
[14:54]	Mavromichali Szondi 	I don't pretend to know much about mesh
[14:54]	Stryker Jenkins 	ok... times up....
[14:54]	Mavromichali Szondi 	other than having failed miserably at 3D programmes a few years back
[14:54]	Sylvan Mole 	when it happens i plan to drop a physics mesh into Mole Mart. once i figure out all the tricka
[14:54]	Stryker Jenkins 	7. In Closing
[14:54]	Stryker Jenkins 	Thank you all for coming and joining in this open discussion and exchange of ideas.
[14:54]	Kitto Flora 	TRAIN WARS .... in a region far far away and a long lag ago ....
[14:54]	Pine Martinek 	I am not expecting mesh soon, just a feeling about the tech issues, lol
[14:55]	Michael Linden 	Mesh will make your trains run better, your teeth shine, and your love life improve.
[14:55]	Stryker Jenkins 	The transcript of this meeting will be posted on the Wiki in a few days. You can find it here:
[14:55]	Mavromichali Szondi 	YAY!
[14:55]	Karima Hoisan 	laughs
''
[14:55]	Stryker Jenkins 	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Second_Life_Railroad/Rail_Community
[14:55]	Radioactive Rosca 	lol
[14:55]	followmeimthe Piedpiper	I need the latter!
[14:55]	Mavromichali Szondi 	Shiny Teeth!
[14:55]	Stryker Jenkins 	Thank you and...
[14:55]	Stryker Jenkins 	SEE YOU OUT THERE!
[14:55]	Michael Linden 	Thank you Stryker!
[14:55]	June Trefoil 	Thanks for the meeting!!
[14:55]	Radioactive Rosca 	ty
[14:55]	Marianne McCann 	Mesh will help our country win the war
[14:55]	Sylvan Mole 	great meet everyone!
[14:55]	Mavromichali Szondi 	thanks Stryker, Michael, Sylvan
[14:55]	Hrdtop75 Deluxe 	Thanks
[14:55]	DOUGIE Flossberg 	train wars will be held on the j.e.r.s.
[14:55]	Marianne McCann 	Have fun, all!
[14:55]	Solonia Stenvaag 	thanks
[14:55]	Moundsa Mayo 	Thank you Stryker, for doing ALL the work to set up and run this meeting!
[14:55]	June Trefoil 	When DOUGIE?
[14:55]	Mavromichali Szondi 	/waves
[14:55]	Catgirl Hian 	thanks Stryker, Michael and others
[14:55]	Stryker Jenkins 	hmmm I would do a river dance... but I don't think I know how!
[14:55]	DOUGIE Flossberg 	we have 10 sims now
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