Pathfinding in Second Life/2012-04-19

Category:Pathfinding user group transcripts
==Attendees List==
*Dahlia Trimble (dahlia.trimble)
*draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam)
*FadeOut Razorfen (fadeout.razorfen)
*Falcon Linden (falcon.linden)
*Ima Mechanique (ima.mechanique)
*Jei SVC-212 (jei.svc-212)
*Jira Helper (jira.helper)
*Kris PATHBUG-69 (kris.pathbug-69)
*Lorca Linden (lorca.linden)
*MartinRJ Fayray (martinrj.fayray)
*Moundsa Mayo (moundsa.mayo)
*Nal (nal)
*Rex Cronon (rex.cronon)
*SMILE (smile)
*Stinson Linden (stinson.linden)
*Sylver Bu (sylver.bu)
*twikie Adder (twikie.adder)
==Transcript for Thursday April 19, 2012==
[16:08]	Falcon Linden 	I have two announcements/requests and then we can probably open the floor
[16:08]	Kris PATHBUG-69 	Sounds great!
[16:08]	Falcon Linden 	#1 Default character height
[16:09]	Falcon Linden 	Because of limitations in the underlying AI system, it's only possible to guarantee robust pathfinding results for a single height of character. Most of the time it doesn't matter if your character is shorter or a bit taller, but you'll get two artefacts. (a) A short character may not take the most optimal path
[16:10]	Falcon Linden 	and (b) A tall character may think it can walk somewhere but bump into a low ceiling
[16:10]	draconis.neurocam	what is the recommended height then?
[16:10]	Falcon Linden 	That's the question, isn't it
[16:10]	Falcon Linden 	:)
[16:10]	Falcon Linden 	We can choose a recommended height.
[16:10]	Lorca Linden 	YOU can help us decide ;)
[16:10]	FadeOut Razorfen 	~av height
[16:10]	Moundsa Mayo 	So we need to test to detect the envelope?
[16:11]	Nal 	Are you going to leave heights open to adjustment or just have an unchangable system set height?
[16:11]	SMILE 	1.9 meters..
[16:11]	Rex Cronon 	can't an ave be 7 feet tall?
[16:11]	draconis.neurocam	well would it not make sense to take the average of the largest and smallest physics shape an avatar can have?
[16:11]	Lorca Linden 	my understanding is that we have to pick a single value for all nav-meshes
[16:11]	SMILE 	Feets is not IS of weights and measures, lol
[16:11]	Moundsa Mayo 	Ah
[16:11]	Falcon Linden 	nalates: what we'll probably do is initially select a fixed height. But later we may allow estate owners to change it. The reason is that we want to make sure that on initial release there's as much inter-region compatibility as possible
[16:11]	Lorca Linden 	character height can change of course
[16:11]	FadeOut Razorfen 	av height (1.5 - 2.0)
[16:12]	Falcon Linden 	We can only choose one height.
[16:12]	Moundsa Mayo 	1.75m
[16:12]	Dahlia Trimble 	I see the navmesh picks a height now and exclusdes areas that are below that height
[16:12]	Falcon Linden 	Right. Here's how this will work
[16:12]	Dahlia Trimble 	can see it by rezzing a ramp and looking at the navmesh
[16:12]	Falcon Linden 	You'll all go back to your regions and build things. I've given estate managers a new sim console command
[16:13]	SMILE 	I believe 1.9 is closer to the mean pretentions on main grid
[16:13]	Falcon Linden 	You can use "set nav_mesh_height <x>" to set the height to <x>. You must then restart for it to take effect
[16:13]	Rex Cronon 	tinies are going to have problem:(
[16:13]	Falcon Linden 	Rex: avatars don't currently use pathfinding at all.
[16:13]	draconis.neurocam	is this on a wiki somewhere falcon so people who werent here will know about it?
[16:13]	Rex Cronon 	they have small buildings
[16:14]	Dahlia Trimble 	not even in attachments?
[16:14]	Falcon Linden 	draconis: not yet. Lorca--can you create a space for that and I'll add some notes?
[16:14]	Moundsa Mayo 	But all their vehicles and such are Tiny-scaled
[16:14]	Rex Cronon 	i know it doesn't work on avatars
[16:14]	Falcon Linden 	Dahlia: not presently, no.
[16:14]	Ima Mechanique 	I'd reccomend erring on the short side. People will build things foor larger avatars to get into, so the height problem is the lesser evil than sub-optimal paths
[16:14]	Falcon Linden 	Ima: actually, you mean "erring on the tall side"
[16:14]	Falcon Linden 	if we erred on the short side, anything taller than that value could hit ceilings
[16:15]	Falcon Linden 	and we will err on the tall side but we want to know your suggestions AFTER you've used the system
[16:15]	Ima Mechanique 	that's what I meant
[16:15]	Ima Mechanique 	ceilings will be higher because avtars are
[16:15]	Falcon Linden 	We'll create a PATHBUG jira that you can all comment on starting next week
[16:15]	Ima Mechanique 	so bumping into them is a minor problem
[16:15]	Falcon Linden 	When you comment, please provide:
[16:15]	Falcon Linden 	1) Your name
[16:15]	Falcon Linden 	2) Your region
[16:16]	Rex Cronon 	people will use pathfinding for pets. pets usually aren't 2m tall. unless u have dragons:)
[16:16]	Falcon Linden 	3) What kinds of characters you tested with
[16:16]	FadeOut Razorfen 	oh damn, yes... i've had using huge raid boss mobs in my plans
[16:16]	Dahlia Trimble 	will pathfinding ever work on mainland?
[16:16]	Falcon Linden 	I'll be verifying that you've actually set up your region for pathfinding before I read the rest of your comment in the jira :)
[16:16]	Falcon Linden 	dahlia: yes
[16:16]	FadeOut Razorfen 	constraining to one value would break it
[16:17]	Falcon Linden 	fadeout: no, it would just require you to build more carefully
[16:17]	Falcon Linden 	in outdoor areas, this will be totally irrelevant
[16:17]	FadeOut Razorfen 	kay then c:
[16:17]	Moundsa Mayo 	That can happen
[16:17]	Rex Cronon 	considering that max height = max ave height => boses can't be that tall
[16:17]	Falcon Linden 	okay. So that's issue #1 that we'd like your feedback on
[16:17]	Moundsa Mayo 	Can use invisible prim to meet default height?
[16:17]	SMILE 	"You are not authorized to set that parameter. This event has been logged."
[16:17]	Falcon Linden 	moundsa: you don't NEED to meet anything.
[16:18]	SMILE 	that present status
[16:18]	Falcon Linden 	sigma: are you an estate manager here? :)
[16:18]	Moundsa Mayo 	K
[16:18]	Rex Cronon 	AFK...............................
[16:18]	Rex Cronon 	afk
[16:18]	SMILE 	lol, sure
[16:18]	SMILE 	well , puzling how we will do
[16:18]	Falcon Linden 	Item #2. You're hopefully familiar, at least a little, with the walkability materials
[16:19]	Dahlia Trimble 	vaguely
[16:19]	Nal 	Some
[16:19]	SMILE 	a little also
[16:19]	Falcon Linden 	To summarize, each walkable linkset and each material volume can be set to have four Walkability values that will apply to each of the four LSL CHARACTER_TYPEs
[16:19]	Falcon Linden 	We call them CHARACTER_TYPE_A, CHARACTER_TYPE_B, ...
[16:19]	SMILE 	up to D
[16:20]	Falcon Linden 	What we'd like to do is provided an official /suggestion/ for which character type you should use for a given pathfinding character
[16:20]	Falcon Linden 	For example, "For compatibility, you should make any pathfinding pets TYPE_A, pathfinding vehicles TYPE_B, pathfinding robots TYPE_C, and anything that clear doesn't fit into a category, TYPE_D"
[16:20]	FadeOut Razorfen 	oh, anyway i remember how they did pathfinding in world of warcraft, raid boss was a small character with default av size, just with huge display model (sorry was a tad late on that)
[16:20]	Nal 	A basic standard would be good
[16:21]	Falcon Linden 	But we don't know what you folks will actually end up building
[16:21]	Sylver Bu 	(sorry for landing on you guys..)
[16:21]	Falcon Linden 	So we'd like to both encourage you to start building things and to get real feedback on what those suggestions should be
[16:21]	Falcon Linden 	We'll make a jira for that, too. Provide the same info and at least a slurl to where we can see some examples you've made of the kinds of things you're suggesting
[16:22]	SMILE 	would that be default charactersz for the types, or fixed for ever ?
[16:22]	Falcon Linden 	in other words, if you suggest that TYPE_C be used only for zombies but you've never actually made a zombie pathfinding character, I'm going to ignore you :)
[16:22]	Falcon Linden 	sigma: it will only be a suggestion
[16:22]	SMILE 	ok
[16:22]	Falcon Linden 	the only place it will show up is in documentation and in the UI.
[16:22]	Lorca Linden 	and as you start building things and checking out the viewer tools, plase make sure to check out the guides on those topics :
[16:22]	Lorca Linden 	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Pathfinding_Quick_Start_Guide
[16:23]	Falcon Linden 	If you're not concerned about compatibility of your characters/builds with other people's characters/build, I don't care and I won't listen to you :)
[16:23]	Lorca Linden 	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Pathfinding_Tools_in_the_Second_Life_Viewer
[16:23]	Falcon Linden 	errr
[16:23]	Lorca Linden 	and you can download the viewer tools from here :
[16:23]	Falcon Linden 	wow, I totally didn't mean that
[16:23]	Lorca Linden 	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Alternate_Viewers
[16:23]	Falcon Linden 	what I meant was "If you're not concerned...then you don't need to worry"
[16:23]	Falcon Linden 	The part about not caring applied to people who say TYPE_C should be a zombie but haven't made a zombie
[16:23]	Falcon Linden 	In that case, I don't care and I won't listen to you :)
[16:24]	Falcon Linden 	Okay, any questions on those two topics?
[16:24]	Dahlia Trimble 	zombies dont say anything but "BRAINZZZZ" anyway
[16:24]	Nal 	blame it on lag
[16:24]	Falcon Linden 	Nal: I work here, I can't do that :)
[16:24]	Nal 	lol
[16:24]	Moundsa Mayo 	Are the four charater types a limited set that can later grow? Or top levels for hierchical types envisioned?
[16:25]	Moundsa Mayo 	[hierarchical]
[16:25]	Nal 	Are we seeing the height problems here in these test regions?
[16:25]	Falcon Linden 	it may be possible to extend the number of character types, but it would require a bunch of work
[16:25]	Moundsa Mayo 	k
[16:25]	Falcon Linden 	Nal: in all the aditi test regions, and by default everywhere, the navmesh is generated with a height of 1.8m
[16:25]	Moundsa Mayo 	Is ther a plan to integrat the vehicle system (or an upgrade) with pathfinding?
[16:25]	Falcon Linden 	anyone, estate manager or not, can use "get nav_mesh_height" to find out what the current height is on the region
[16:26]	Falcon Linden 	moundsa: not at the present time. If we did that, it would probably be by way of providing an llGetPathPoints call, but that has its own difficulties
[16:26]	Moundsa Mayo 	Or does Pathfinding REPLACE the vehicle system?
[16:26]	Moundsa Mayo 	I see.
[16:26]	Dahlia Trimble 	is there, or any plans for, a way that LSL can access the navmesh data, or specify/modify search heuristics?
[16:26]	Falcon Linden 	Dahlia: no. That would require a language far more performant than LSL
[16:27]	Falcon Linden 	like...x86 assembly.
[16:27]	SMILE 	nav_mesh_height = [unset
[16:27]	Falcon Linden 	right. Default is 1.8
[16:27]	SMILE 	ok
[16:27]	Falcon Linden 	I think
[16:27]	Falcon Linden 	maybe I should confirm
[16:27]	Falcon Linden 	sec
[16:28]	Falcon Linden 	1.75 default
[16:28]	Falcon Linden 	the range for the parameter is 0.5 to 3
[16:28]	Falcon Linden 	and again, changes will only take full effect after a restart
[16:28]	Rex Cronon 	the thing is. a zombie can at one point be very dry, and after u shoot it or eats some brain will become wet with blood. so it needs to change its type
[16:28]	Falcon Linden 	you can change type :)
[16:29]	Falcon Linden 	If I had to predict the types, they would be quadruped, biped, and vehicle
[16:29]	Rex Cronon 	than u can't say zombie needs to be a specific type
[16:29]	Falcon Linden 	but if there are other categories that you think would be better after experimentation and your knowledge of SL's market, we'd like to hear it
[16:29]	Falcon Linden 	Falcon Linden wishes he hadn't mentioned zombies
''
[16:29]	Moundsa Mayo 	or more generally polyped, biped, and vehicle B^)
[16:30]	Falcon Linden 	Moundsa: our designer would shoot me if I tried to suggest we put the word "polyped" on the UI
[16:30]	Rex Cronon 	and if u shoot its legs and arms becomes worm like:)
[16:30]	FadeOut Razorfen 	oh, will thar be any way to receive raw navmesh data with vector list of navigation positions ?
[16:30]	Moundsa Mayo 	Carry polyped to an extreme and you can have snakes and worms
[16:30]	Falcon Linden 	FadeOut: someday maybe. The trouble with that is that dynamic obstacles can move, invalidating the path
[16:30]	Moundsa Mayo 	Hee. No shooting of Falcon!
[16:31]	Rex Cronon 	miriapod maybe:0
[16:31]	Lorca Linden 	and remember, these are just suggestions for the character types, you will be free to use different types of creatures
[16:31]	Falcon Linden 	Okay, open question time!
[16:31]	Lorca Linden 	they will help standardization but not enforce it
[16:31]	FadeOut Razorfen 	PATHBUG-75 still ain't perfect, my last comment on that "So what i should do to make enemy NPC do not fly like 20 meters away when it get hit by an arrow with 200 vel with very low mass and volume ? I've got no other solution then making arrows use llVolumeDetect, which would break a proper projectile behavior... Something about that pls ?"
[16:31]	Jira Helper 	[#PATHBUG-75] CLONE - Characters are push when hit with small fast moving prim https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/PATHBUG-75
[16:31]	Kris PATHBUG-69 	@Lorca/Falcon: How likely is it for PATHBUG-69 to be resolved? If improbable, if the Pathfinding Server code manifests on Agni much sooner than the "Experience Tools" server code, can we have an option to "opt out" , as a region owner, on Pathfinding server code until Experience Tools server code is final? There are a lot of problems with this new change in llVolumeDetect behavior. Much of this can be mitigated with Experience Tools live, but that seems more far off than Pathfinding server code on the main channel.
[16:31]	Jira Helper 	[#PATHBUG-69] llVolumeDetect(TRUE) is broken https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/PATHBUG-69
[16:31]	Falcon Linden 	FadeOut: have you tried llCastRay? :)
[16:31]	FadeOut Razorfen 	200 is not inf
[16:32]	FadeOut Razorfen 	arrows need to be able to dodge
[16:32]	Falcon Linden 	PATHBUG-69 is worth discussion. Let me handle 75 first
[16:32]	FadeOut Razorfen 	and btw
[16:32]	Rex Cronon 	can u make characters jump? like a frog?
[16:32]	Lorca Linden 	rex yes
[16:32]	Lorca Linden 	we have frogs in the wilderness that hop
[16:32]	FadeOut Razorfen 	look at this gnome right here, something really weir happening when i shoot it, look
[16:32]	Falcon Linden 	For PATHBUG-75, use lower velocity arrows
[16:32]	Jira Helper 	[#PATHBUG-75] CLONE - Characters are push when hit with small fast moving prim https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/PATHBUG-75
[16:33]	Falcon Linden 	and, more importantly, SHORTER arrows
[16:33]	Dahlia Trimble 	Dahlia Trimble dodges stray bullets...
''
[16:33]	FadeOut Razorfen 	like, it slided away
[16:33]	Falcon Linden 	The way that characters work is different from how other objects work
[16:33]	Lorca Linden 	btw, i just gotta say, I loved the gnome video you posted in that bug ;)
[16:33]	Falcon Linden 	When something penetrates them (like an arrow), they are given a velocity that will resolve the penetration immediately
[16:34]	Falcon Linden 	I'm not sure if PATHBUG-75 has been deployed to agni yet
[16:34]	Falcon Linden 	my tests showed significantly improved behavior, but there's only so much we can clamp down on that without other things going wrong
[16:34]	Rex Cronon 	could the reason for how far r they pushed be because of the new flight limit?
[16:34]	FadeOut Razorfen 	yea, but i've noticed a new thing about it... now it starts sliding away off the sim when i shoot it
[16:34]	Falcon Linden 	Rex: absolutely not
[16:34]	Falcon Linden 	FadeOut: open a new bug.
[16:34]	FadeOut Razorfen 	okay
[16:35]	FadeOut Razorfen 	i've noticed it only today
[16:35]	Falcon Linden 	wait
[16:35]	Falcon Linden 	oh, that's a DIFFERENT bug
[16:35]	Falcon Linden 	we're already tracking that
[16:35]	Falcon Linden 	it isn't actually sliding. Your viewer is just not getting the message that it /isn't/ sliding :)
[16:35]	FadeOut Razorfen 	oh lol
[16:36]	FadeOut Razorfen 	thankies lorca c:
[16:36]	Falcon Linden 	Okay. Now, PATHBUG-69
[16:36]	Jira Helper 	[#PATHBUG-69] llVolumeDetect(TRUE) is broken https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/PATHBUG-69
[16:36]	Falcon Linden 	I've found a way to preserve legacy behavior for existing objects as follows:
[16:37]	Falcon Linden 	1) If the linkset uses the hack and also uses new accounting, the first time it is rezzed on a pathfinding sim the hacked prim will be set to physics shape type none. Since the linkset already uses new accounting, this will not affect land impact. It may affect a small amount of content that relies on link number of higher numbered prims
[16:38]	Falcon Linden 	2) If the linkset uses the hack and does NOT use new accounting, the prim will be modified such that it collides only with the terrain. Other than that, behavior should be unchanged
[16:38]	Falcon Linden 	3) No new linksets can be created that use the hack, and any linking or unlinking event (other than sitting an avatar) will remove the hack
[16:39]	Falcon Linden 	We are looking to address the issue that optimizing physics by moving to new accounting can cause streaming cost to skyrocket. We have some ideas but are not ready to commit to the changes yet. Hopefully I'll have more info next week.
[16:40]	Jei SVC-212 	@Falcon As a sim that has already been structured strategically to hide legacy linden functions that work incorrectly, and also take down unnessisary load, to change things around to use new accounting while keeping legacy function, would be a large time and effort... It'd be better to shut the sim down until it could be fixed. Alternitively, is it possible for private regions to stay on a previous version until those things can be resolved with ET?
[16:41]	Falcon Linden 	Jei: Which of the three cases above does your content fall into?
[16:41]	Moundsa Mayo 	The vehicle system uses a sit-order-by-link-number algorithm. Might this be implemented for pathfinding objects?
[16:41]	Moundsa Mayo 	OOPs - table until through with current topic.
[16:41]	Falcon Linden 	no, the only link number calculations that will be affected will be in collision detection events
[16:42]	Falcon Linden 	everything else, llSetLinkedPrimitiveParams, llMessageLinked, etc., etc. willl be unaffected
[16:42]	Falcon Linden 	only llDetectedLinkNum in collision_start, collision, collision_end, and land_collision events will be affected, and only in case (2)
[16:43]	Jei SVC-212 	i haven't seen the effects of the update outside of volume detect beoming solid. in adition, i note they take the same PE as they had before. A fix for our teleportation would be to make child phantom prims become prim type collision none... In which case boosts theim up from meager 5 linksents to 180+. great if we could regulate things on the fly to conform, but as it's structured to old system, it's not quickly fixable.
[16:43]	Jei SVC-212 	These are link sets that use volume detect hack because phantom disables non sit targets, where sit target can be accested from across world.
[16:44]	draconis.neurocam	that would seriously be amazing if optimizing physics did did not always cause the streaming cost to skyrocket, just saying
[16:44]	draconis.neurocam	yeah
[16:44]	Falcon Linden 	The fix I've described has not gone out yet
[16:44]	Dahlia Trimble 	how about stiff flexible prims? are they still phantom?
[16:44]	Falcon Linden 	When it does (next week, I think), the hacked objects should return to being phantom
[16:44]	Falcon Linden 	dahlia: this only applies to hacked llVolumeDetect-based content
[16:45]	Jei SVC-212 	Well, it'd be best to see how it pilotes then : ) Half asleep, so please bear with my alertness here too.
[16:45]	Falcon Linden 	Draconis: As I said, we're aware of that issue and working on possible solutions
[16:45]	draconis.neurocam	right
[16:45]	Falcon Linden 	PATHBUG-69 has increased the priority of resolving that issue
[16:45]	Lorca Linden 	we are definitely aware of the concerns there and are working actively on a solution
[16:45]	Lorca Linden 	as Falcon said
[16:45]	Falcon Linden 	Lorca: right, I just said that. See? :)
[16:46]	Falcon Linden 	Anyway, no one trusts producers. Engineers don't lie. :)
[16:46]	Lorca Linden 	Lorca Linden tugs on falcon's teather and puts his hood on
''
[16:46]	Jei SVC-212 	Well, If it's feasible to remain on an earlier version if it's not, that'd suffice... Volume detect in huge overlaps is something we just have to do, and it uses extra unnessisary load. So any fix that won't break our current structure for now would make us happy : )
[16:46]	FadeOut Razorfen 	thats so true falcon lol
[16:46]	Falcon Linden 	Lorca, please don't put on a hood. That's scary. I don't know what you might do next
[16:47]	Falcon Linden 	jei: We won't be able to accomodate remaining on an older version of the server once we go grid-wide. But we do intend to resolve this issue before then as detailed above, combined--we hope--with changes to new accounting
[16:47]	Falcon Linden 	Okay, anything else?
[16:47]	Falcon Linden 	Have people been playing with the viewer?
[16:47]	Dahlia Trimble 	dates?
[16:48]	Falcon Linden 	Dahlia: we don't have any to give
[16:48]	Falcon Linden 	Prunes are available on request, though
[16:48]	SMILE 	what would be the sim capability on njumber of PF characters ?
[16:48]	Dahlia Trimble 	"we dont need no stinkin dates"
[16:48]	Jei SVC-212 	Well, it's be thanked... as we stand, we cannot change our sim's structure at this time, so if things don't work, we're forced to close down the sim until we resolve the issues. Thanks for the info.
[16:48]	Lorca Linden 	also, if anyone in this group wants to take part in the opt in beta, please let me know
[16:48]	Lorca Linden 	you can get your regions on agni on the pathfinding server code next week if they are not already!
[16:48]	Sylver Bu 	I'll be loading up the pathfinding viewer sometime later.. for now i'm just listening and trying to comprehend whats going on xD'
[16:48]	Lorca Linden 	pathfinding-beta@lindenlab.com
[16:48]	SMILE 	WHow, I would like Falcon
[16:48]	Falcon Linden 	Sigma: that will depend on your particular region, but we've seen 50 supported pretty easily. We've provided the "Characters..." floater to help you locate poorly performing characters
[16:48]	Dahlia Trimble 	Dahlia Trimble is mainland bound :/
''
[16:49]	Lorca Linden 	and feel free to spread the word on that as well
[16:49]	FadeOut Razorfen 	i think i've got nothing else, but bugging about non attached rigged animated mesh. i've almost finished my prim BVH animation workaround, but it takes 0.2 ms script time, and ~50kbps per character, which is kinda god damn high
[16:49]	Kris PATHBUG-69 	Experience Tools will resolve most of the problems, however, if you are willing to preserve "legacy" builds as you say that is a good thing. I fear that Pathfinding Server code will come out much earlier than Experience Tools server code.
[16:49]	Sylver Bu 	I will do. I think the folks that make Meeroos will be interested in the pathfinding coding since their pets are entirely AI driven..
[16:49]	Falcon Linden 	Dahlia: We do have one or two mainland regions on pathfinding. Send pathfinding-beta@ a message with what region you're on and we'll look into moving it to the beta channel
[16:49]	Falcon Linden 	Kris, how will experience tools help?
[16:50]	Dahlia Trimble 	ooou ty Falcon :)
[16:50]	Falcon Linden 	FadeOut: Lorca and I are the two biggest proponents of adding support for proper animation that you'll find here. Trust us, possibly better than you folks, how horrible the current workarounds are
[16:50]	FadeOut Razorfen 	yeeea lol
[16:50]	Falcon Linden 	errr, "Trust us, we know, possibly..."
[16:51]	Lorca Linden 	preaching to the choir, so to speak ;)
[16:51]	Rex Cronon 	ave anim, or prim aanim?
[16:51]	Rex Cronon 	anim*
[16:51]	Falcon Linden 	we'd like to see arbitrary rigged mesh animation
[16:51]	Falcon Linden 	but that's no guarantee it will happen :)
[16:52]	Moundsa Mayo 	Well I'll sure sing out loud in harmony on animation!
[16:52]	Falcon Linden 	9 minutes left. Has anyone set up their whole region for pathfinding yet?
[16:52]	Jei SVC-212 	i'm sure it will happen... mesh imports are already 15 year standard out of date... Good to show outsiders that Second Life is the 'real deal'.
[16:52]	Kris PATHBUG-69 	We will no longer require "sit on targets" for teleportation. At present, with llVolumeDetect an avatar must me in absolute proximity to the rezed / non-solid teleport beacon in order for it to function without hopping around the region in draw distance and camera angles to exploit "game inspired" acheivements. We can replace those with ET.
[16:52]	Lorca Linden 	also, if anyone is having performance issues on a pathfinding region on the main grid, please point them to the links I shared earlier
[16:53]	Falcon Linden 	Kris that's interesting. I wasn't aware of that use for the hack.
[16:53]	Lorca Linden 	there are some relatively simple steps that fix the common issues we are seeing on a minority of regions
[16:53]	Lorca Linden 	detailed in the getting started and viewer guides
[16:54]	Falcon Linden 	Also, in the future, we plan to implement additional optimizations that rely on objects being marked as permanent (static obstacle, walkable, etc.)
[16:54]	Lorca Linden 	and, as a reminder, pathfinding is currently on a partial debug build so we can get better data to fix bugs before launch
[16:54]	Falcon Linden 	So mark everything you can, because some day it might help your region load faster. Or something else.
[16:54]	Falcon Linden 	Or maybe help with bridges that cross region boundaries. I don't know, but it's certainly A Good Thing (TM)
[16:54]	Lorca Linden 	you may see some performance hit on particularly busy / object heavy regions, but the majority (around 80%) of regions we move over on agni are running just fine even on the partial debug build
[16:54]	Jei SVC-212 	Well, i spent 6 years investigating what Second Life could offer in game functionality without the normal functionality interfering with a game environment... Sit target objects just wern't able to cut it... If they did, all my volume detect'd be phantom only...
[16:55]	Sylver Bu 	@Falcon; What do you mean by setting up our regions for pathfinding..?
[16:56]	Falcon Linden 	Sylver: Marking objects as walkable or static obstacles. See the links Lorca provided above to the Getting Started and Viewer Tools guides
[16:56]	Falcon Linden 	It's very simple to do
[16:56]	Falcon Linden 	And is not "one linkset at a time"
[16:56]	Sylver Bu 	Okie Dokie :D thank you. I favorited those pages for review later on.
[16:56]	Falcon Linden 	i.e., you can batch update your objects
[16:57]	Falcon Linden 	4 minutes!
[16:57]	Sylver Bu 	!
[16:57]	Falcon Linden 	D'oh, I forgot to open this UG with my standard opening!
[16:57]	Lorca Linden 	just as a reminder, here are the main links :
[16:57]	Rex Cronon 	btw. if somebody can't make it to this meeting where can the transcripts be found?
[16:57]	Lorca Linden 	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Pathfinding_Quick_Start_Guide
[16:57]	Lorca Linden 	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Pathfinding_Tools_in_the_Second_Life_Viewer
[16:57]	Falcon Linden 	"No, no you can't have that feature. No, we're not going to implement that. And no, you won't be getting a unicorn, a rainbow, or a pot o' gold either!"
[16:57]	Nal 	Falcon are you going to add this meeting to the UG page?
[16:57]	Lorca Linden 	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Alternate_Viewers
[16:57]	Lorca Linden 	viewer download is here :
[16:58]	Moundsa Mayo 	But free ice cream is a possibility?
[16:58]	MartinRJ Fayray 	Sylver Bu if you have your own region you can run the pathfinding server on it, if you request it
[16:58]	Falcon Linden 	Rex/Nal: I'll be asking Lorca to handle that. He'll set create the wiki UG page and I'll send him the logs to post
[16:58]	Dahlia Trimble 	not even a pony?
[16:58]	MartinRJ Fayray 	that's what he meant
[16:58]	FadeOut Razorfen 	falcon why your UG is still ain't there ? c: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:User_Groups
[16:58]	Lorca Linden 	I'll add a link for the logs from the main pathfinding page
[16:58]	Sylver Bu 	IU've already submitted 2 of my regions for entry, Arcaniss my private dev sim, and Okarthel, my mainstore(i want to fiddle with pathfinding on its ground level as its fairly complex)
[16:58]	Falcon Linden 	FadeOut: Because I've been too busy fixing Pathfinding bugs to create a wiki page :)
[16:58]	twikie Adder 	NUTS COULD USE THE GOLD
[16:58]	FadeOut Razorfen 	k
[16:59]	twikie Adder 	dam caps lock
[16:59]	Lorca Linden 	and please please, spread the word about the beta!
[16:59]	Lorca Linden 	getting more people to help us test will really help us make this stable and polished for release
[16:59]	Falcon Linden 	and mark your objects as static. I have ways of knowing which sims are doing that and which aren't, and the physics gods will hunt you down if you don't!
[16:59]	Lorca Linden 	90% or more of objects should be set to walkable or static obstacle for best performance
[16:59]	Lorca Linden 	only objects that actually move should be set to dynamic obstacle
[17:00]	Lorca Linden 	that's the most common cause of performance problems
[17:00]	Falcon Linden 	Lorca just made that number up. For best performance, 100% of objects should be set to Walkable, Static Obstacle, Material Phantom, or Exclusion Volume
[17:00]	Dahlia Trimble 	or the physics gremlins
[17:00]	FadeOut Razorfen 	lol
[17:00]	Falcon Linden 	but since that's not realistic, I'll accept a number as close as you can get :)
[17:00]	Falcon Linden 	if you put some real effort into it :)
[17:00]	Sylver Bu 	this will be very cool if we get rigs for non-avatar mesh... i saw that animated gremlin over there.. too bad that method uses up way too many resources visually.. x3
[17:00]	Lorca Linden 	;)
[17:01]	Rex Cronon 	there r bullets that rezz things. should the rezzed things marked static?
[17:01]	Falcon Linden 	Seriously though, the performance of your region is directly correlated with the number of "moveable obstacles" present (which everything is until you mark it otherwise)
[17:01]	Falcon Linden 	err, inversely correlated*
[17:01]	Falcon Linden 	Rex: nothing that moves can be marked as static
[17:01]	Lorca Linden 	ok time is up all
[17:01]	Lorca Linden 	thank you for coming to this user group
[17:01]	Falcon Linden 	Rex: with the exception of objects that only move by way of prim animation and then, only the animated prims ahve shape type NONE
[17:01]	Rex Cronon 	upon hitting someting the bullet dies but first rezes something
[17:01]	Lorca Linden 	I hope to see you again next week, and that some of you join the beta
[17:01]	Lorca Linden 	and help us test
[17:01]	Nal 	Thanks for having the meeting.
[17:01]	SMILE 	well, thansk Falcon and Lorca
[17:02]	Sylver Bu 	Glad i could make it to the last half. Eagerly awaiting the future
[17:02]	Lorca Linden 	bye all!
[17:02]	Rex Cronon 	ok
[17:02]	Dahlia Trimble 	ty Falcon and Lorca :)
[17:02]	Falcon Linden 	Cheers!
[17:02]	MartinRJ Fayray 	goodbye all:)
[17:02]	Rex Cronon 	tc lorca
[17:02]	Moundsa Mayo 	Falcon, Lorca, thanks for your time and hard work!
[17:02]	Rex Cronon 	tc falcon
[17:02]	Sylver Bu 	..
[17:02]	Sylver Bu 	Oh dear.
[17:02]	Rex Cronon 	tc everybody
[17:02]	Moundsa Mayo 	And Stinson!
[17:02]	Rex Cronon 	have a ncie day
[17:02]	Rex Cronon 	nice*
[17:02]	Stinson Linden 	later All
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