User Experience Interest Group/Transcripts/2010-04-15

== Topic ==
User Experience Interest Group Discussion for April 15, 2010.
Topic: What OpenSim users and developers want in a viewer.
== Summary ==
We met in the Wright Plaza lounge on OSGrid to discuss what OpenSim users and developers want in a viewer.
In approximately the order mentioned:
* Stability (fewer/no crashes).
* Lighter memory usage.
* LightShare support.
* Content export tools, including object contents.
* Bold, italics, etc. for chat.
* Fix the long-standing alpha sorting issue (). Unfortunately this is not feasible to fix completely, but may offer a solution for many cases.
* Support for variable sized regions (i.e. Megaregions).
* User-defined normal maps or bump maps on prims.
* Custom entries in the menus, to add quick-links to web sites, Hypergrid links, etc.
* Support for cross-grid IMs and group chat.
* Ability to visualize the collision mesh for sculpties. (By default, OpenSim uses a true mesh for sculpty physics collisions, not a sphere like SL does.)
* Ability to turn off terrain and/or water as a sim setting, for e.g. space sims or completely underwater sims.
* Customizable height maps for sim water, similar to height maps for terrain.
* Neighboring empty regions should match the water height of the current region.
* Fix the issue with oblong sculpties. (, I think.)
* Proper Hypergrid, Open Grid Protocol, and/or VWRAP support. Perhaps borrow policies from Grider.
* A "grid transfer" permission checkbox, to indicate permission to move the content to other grids.
* Inventory backup/restore (partial or full). Similar to IAR (Inventory Archive) backup on OpenSim server tools, but built into the viewer.
* Features from Viewer 2.0: alpha layer, tattoo layer, inventory links, shared media
* Gray avatars (texture not loading) are an annoyance. It may be a matter of lost packets. Perhaps a way for the viewer to re-request an avatar's baked textures from the sim would help.
* Inventory quick filters (a la Imprudence)
* Various features built in: radar, animation overrider, dancer, chat translator.
* Web-based search pages (All, Showcase, Groups) should not be hard-coded to SL searches. (But in many cases there isn't any existing search service for the current grid. This is something viewer and server developers can address together.)
* Fix/replace "the crappy basic avatar."
* Script editor should have tips for OSSL functions.
* Should replace SLURLs with a multi-grid alternative, like rezzme:// or osurl:// URLs.
== Transcript ==
[14:46]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	hello Jacek, Penny
[14:47]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hi :)
[14:47]	Penny Lane: 	Hi Jacek, Adelle :-)
[14:48]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	hi Marcus, BlueWall
[14:48]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	Heya, Adelle. :)
[14:48]	BlueWall Slade: 	Hello Adelle
[14:48]	Baewyn Celara: 	Hi
[14:48]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	hello
[14:49]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	I demand free liquor be dispensed from my Imprudence viewer. :)
[14:49]	Baewyn Celara: 	lol
[14:49]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	haha
[14:49]	Haku Mhia: 	i'd pass ya a beer but i havent got round to makeing it yet
[14:49]	Baewyn Celara: 	Yes open source beer please
[14:50]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hey, but you're running Emerald. No free booze for heretics! ;)
[14:50]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	Libre beer! w00t
[14:50]	Baewyn Celara: 	lol
[14:50]	Haku Mhia: 	i'll work on it after i finish the saber claws
[14:50]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	Yeeeahh... Imprudence only lasts a few mins for me before a crash. I didn't wanna have to relog for the meetin'.
[14:50]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Ah, that's too bad
[14:51]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	Believe me... I was a lil embaressed knowing I'd show up with the wrong viewer tag. hehe
[14:51]	Baewyn Celara: 	I keep hearing the same for the new Hippo. I haven't had that problem.
[14:51]	Haku Mhia: 	lmao
[14:51]	Haku Mhia: 	nope new hipps seems fine to me
[14:51]	Baewyn Celara: 	Me too
[14:51]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	New Hippo is stable enough... but there's some bugs. :P
[14:52]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	And I don't care for it's adherence to that ancient UI paradigm, frankly.
[14:52]	Animation Changer: 	Running
[14:52]	Baewyn Celara: 	Show me a piece of software without bugs, I'll show you a lucid dream.
[14:52]	Haku Mhia: 	mario 1?
[14:52]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hello world :D
[14:53]	Haku Mhia: 	ohh ohh ohh better one .... snake
[14:53]	Armin Weatherwax: 	Hi :)
[14:54]	BlueWall Slade: 	SL Viewer 2 is a tourist trap
[14:54]	Haku Mhia: 	wheres my lucid dream :P
[14:54]	Baewyn Celara: 	Hi Rev
[14:54]	Revolution Smythe: 	hello
[14:54]	Haku Mhia: 	sl2 = 1 million ways for LL to phail again
[14:54]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	Although there are things in it that definitely annoy me, I find SL Viewer 2 to be an improvement over the adhoc UI the old one had.
[14:54]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hey Armin. Nice hat :)
[14:54]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	i havent even looked at sl2 yet
[14:54]	BlueWall Slade: 	I wander if they have "Farmville" envy?
[14:55]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	i heard that many bad reports, i decided to not waste my time
[14:55]	Haku Mhia: 	it's only been made cause ll know that there are atleast 20 viewers out there better then thers
[14:55]	Baewyn Celara: 	^^ yeah
[14:55]	BlueWall Slade: 	lol, Including LibOMV
[14:56]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	i do like the idea of html on prims and stuff, if it works ok
[14:56]	Baewyn Celara: 	an updated render engine would be nice
[14:56]	Haku Mhia: 	html on prima is good but pointless without full browser compatability
[14:56]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	the prim media is both awesome and frightening. It wasn't thought out completely, particularly security.
[14:56]	BlueWall Slade: 	if you interact with it, it jerks your cameral sqyare to the prims face
[14:56]	Armin Weatherwax: 	yeah, after people talking so much about white,grey and black hats i thought a bit color would be fine
[14:56]	Baewyn Celara: 	lol neither was media in SL1
[14:56]	Nebs Cherry Martini with Orange Slice whispers: Another route to Nirvana 	Nebs Cherry Martini with Orange Slice whispers: Another route to Nirvana
[14:56]	Haku Mhia: 	and adding in css vbs js ect will over lag the viewer
[14:57]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	BlueWall, I didnt know that
[14:57]	BlueWall Slade: 	you can look at it
[14:57]	BlueWall Slade: 	but, if you click an input on it it will
[14:57]	Jacek Antonelli: 	BlueWall: That's configurable
[14:57]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	what about scroll bars?
[14:57]	BlueWall Slade: 	ohhh, ok
[14:57]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	It has scroll bars, yes.
[14:57]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	cool
[14:58]	BlueWall Slade: 	it is a good idea
[14:58]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	I think you can toggle the camera capture via the associated script functions, yes?
[14:58]	Haku Mhia: 	could be interesting to see how it effects the tv industry on sl
[14:58]	Jacek Antonelli: 	From a technical standpoint, the media on a prim stuff is amazing. But there are security/privacy issues to work out
[14:59]	Penny Lane: 	Jacek, do you want me to annouce at the end of Merov's meeting that UXIG is here? (2 mins to go)
[14:59]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	Invite all of SL. ;)
[14:59]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Penny: I left a prim reminder with a link to the mailing list archive with more info
[14:59]	Jacek Antonelli: 	We should be alright
[14:59]	BlueWall Slade: 	did Lbsa Plaza get put out in the fringes?
[15:00]	Penny Lane: 	KK, I won't say anything then
[15:00]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	it did, BlueWall
[15:00]	BlueWall Slade: 	lol
[15:00]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	in an attempt to gain a bit of stability
[15:00]	Haku Mhia: 	lbsa is haveing issues atm
[15:00]	BlueWall Slade: 	I saw a lot of voids
[15:00]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	Don't worry. People will crowd around the voids soon enough, again.
[15:00]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	it also has two layers of voids around it now too
[15:00]	BlueWall Slade: 	that is a good idea
[15:00]	BlueWall Slade: 	that place used to beat the living hell out of my sims
[15:01]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	hehe it beats the living hell out of the voids
[15:01]	Enrico Nirvana: 	hi all
[15:01]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	Hiya, Enrico.
[15:01]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	4gig of logs in about 2 weeks!
[15:01]	BlueWall Slade: 	lol
[15:01]	Baewyn Celara: 	O.o damn
[15:01]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	Holy jeebus.
[15:02]	Baewyn Celara: 	Save us from all that reading jeebus
[15:02]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hi Enrico, and welcome everyone
[15:02]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	Do the voids really need logs? Can't ya kill that in log4net?
[15:02]	Revolution Smythe: 	YEAH
[15:02]	Revolution Smythe: 	yeah*
[15:02]	Revolution Smythe: 	you can kill the logs
[15:02]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	i can and I did, but after an update, i forgot to kill them again
[15:02]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	d'oh
[15:02]	Haku Mhia: 	lol
[15:02]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	Yer fired. :)
[15:02]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	:P
[15:03]	Haku Mhia: 	erm i should proba ask this since im here whats UXIG?
[15:03]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehehe
[15:03]	Baewyn Celara: 	user experience interest group
[15:04]	Haku Mhia: 	ahh so like osg's version of a focus group
[15:04]	Jacek Antonelli: 	UXIG (User Experience Interest Group) is a group I started with a bunch of SLers
[15:04]	Jacek Antonelli: 	After the Lindens cancelled their user experience office hours. I took over their hour. >:)
[15:04]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	It is a focus group.
[15:04]	BlueWall Slade: 	lol
[15:05]	Jacek Antonelli: 	We talk about user interface, usability, and other issues in SL. Except today, where we're talking about OpenSim :)
[15:05]	BlueWall Slade: 	are you ready to take over their grid?
[15:05]	Haku Mhia: 	im not surprised to find summin like it here osg is more cuminity focused then sl
[15:05]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	Not really.
[15:06]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	The new SL first hour experience (disregarding viewer 2.0) is interesting and engaging.
[15:06]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	Well, so far as I know there isn't a UI group... as there's no actively developed viewer for OpenSim. Or... hasn't been one. ;) But there is an official town hall meeting for grid users.
[15:06]	Haku Mhia: 	really over recent times ll has been more bothered with the media then the player comunity
[15:06]	Penny Lane: 	It's worth saying that the transcripts of UXIG make a pretty decent repository of ideas for GUIs. Jacek classifies them well too
[15:06]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah, we've got a year and a half worth of transcripts that LL has been mostly ignoring
[15:07]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	NO. Not LL.
[15:07]	Penny Lane: 	That's OK, it's mutual :-)
[15:07]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I know, so out of character for them to ignore users, right?
[15:07]	Penny Lane: 	lol
[15:07]	Haku Mhia: 	well it's not out of charicter as to say there getting worse at it
[15:08]	BlueWall Slade: 	I haven't been able to run the Imprudence veiwer in a while (on Linux) but, I plan to build it
[15:08]	Haku Mhia: 	take there " roadmap" that has nurfed xstreet
[15:08]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	I've been using 1.3b2... so that's prolly why I keep crashing.
[15:09]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Whee!
[15:09]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	hehe wb
[15:09]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Minor turbulence :)
[15:09]	BlueWall Slade: 	haa
[15:09]	Neopallium Granville: 	I am using 1.3b2 on linux
[15:09]	Neopallium Granville: 	haven't crashed yet
[15:09]	BlueWall Slade: 	what distro?
[15:09]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	I really, REALLY love the grid management functions in 1.3... so that's why I keep trying to use it.
[15:09]	Neopallium Granville: 	gentoo ;)
[15:09]	Penny Lane: 	I've been running nothing but Imprudence 1.3.0* ever since the Merge Test release came out, because it's rock solid for me on Linux.
[15:09]	BlueWall Slade: 	ok, OpenSUSE 11.2 here
[15:09]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	1.3b2 on Linux with a few modifications.
[15:10]	UUID Speaker: 	lillith xue: 42df21a7-10de-45d1-9e70-89c80e4dcdcf
[15:10]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	Sometimes it would drag the system down, but it's common to all viewers and I haven't figurred out why.
[15:10]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	I'm on Win7 64... crashes suddenly and without warning on me. :(
[15:10]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	Oh, also segfaults at startup, but that's also common.
[15:10]	Revolution Smythe: 	its not stable on win 7 32 bit either
[15:10]	Haku Mhia: 	weird im on win7 32 and no probs
[15:11]	Baewyn Celara: 	On linux I've noticed the slowdowns are related to pulseaudio
[15:11]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Boo. Well, I encourage everyone with Imprudence issues to post in the forums so we'll know about it
[15:11]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	When it runs, it's beyootiful. But it just dies. :(
[15:11]	Haku Mhia: 	ohh imprudence viewer never tryed it
[15:11]	Haku Mhia: 	im on hippo n prity stable on win 7
[15:11]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	I build my own OpenAL libs to fix pulseaudio problems, that might be why.
[15:11]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Today we're here to talk about: What OpenSim users and developers want in a viewer
[15:12]	Neopallium Granville: 	is hippo still maintained?
[15:12]	Jacek Antonelli: 	So I guess "Not crashing" is something to put on the list
[15:12]	Pete Atolia: 	yup lol
[15:12]	Baewyn Celara: 	Kakurady I'd like some instructions on that later.
[15:12]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	Heh, definitely.
[15:12]	Penny Lane: 	Marcus: there's a bug with that grid manager that annoys the hell out of me, namely that it ignores the command line flags. -grid XXX should override the last grid used, and select the appropriate last login on that grid.
[15:12]	BlueWall Slade: 	I disabled voice and audio, and still crashed. But it could still be interacting with the libs
[15:12]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	Stability is up there for me, yup. I'm only on Emerald because it isn't crashing, and I'm a few versions back on that too. Hippo is stable, but I don't like it's UI, and it has some bugs that prevent certain things from working.
[15:12]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	Baewyn: sudo apt-get build dep openal-soft && git co xxxxx && cmake && make && make install
[15:13]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	Then copy stuff to the lib folder.
[15:13]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	i would like to see a sensible amount of memory consumption from a viewer
[15:13]	Armin Weatherwax: 	Kakurady: 1.11.753 ? for me it fixes the hang with pulseaudio on shutdown
[15:13]	Baewyn Celara: 	ty will try on my Ubuntu machine
[15:13]	Haku Mhia raises hand 	Haku Mhia raises hand
[15:13]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, lighter memory use. What else?
[15:13]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Go ahead
[15:13]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	forced windlight setting from a simulator
[15:13]	Revolution Smythe: 	lightshare
[15:13]	BlueWall Slade: 	It would be col to see the windlight automation used
[15:14]	BlueWall Slade: 	++ Adelle, lol
[15:14]	Pete Atolia: 	agreed
[15:14]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hehe, everyone thinking the same thing, eh :)
[15:14]	Armin Weatherwax: 	is there already an server in osgrid to test it?
[15:14]	Revolution Smythe: 	i have one
[15:14]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	great minds and all that, hehe
[15:14]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	This might be a little out there... but it's something LL would never add, and text chat is very popular on OSim grids. So I'd love to see formatted text for chat. Bold, italics and such.
[15:14]	Haku Mhia: 	well i'd like to see import options on the viewer alot of users have content from the LL grid they waht to transfer here but have to use ofer viewers or "copybots" to do so
[15:14]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	post 1.11 actually. I checked the git log today and is a bit afraid the change post 1.12 of always mixing in 6 channels might slow it down.
[15:14]	Penny Lane: 	Well it's the things that everyone has been asking of LL for years, and always being ignored :P
[15:15]	Revolution Smythe: 	if one wants to test lightshare sometime, ill get a set sim up here ith lightsare on it
[15:15]	Revolution Smythe: 	with*
[15:15]	BlueWall Slade: 	Build it here and upload it to there
[15:15]	Kakurady Drakenar thinks LL's new orientation experience could be enhanced with LightShare 	Kakurady Drakenar thinks LL's new orientation experience could be enhanced with LightShare
[15:15]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	I blieve OpenSim has lightshare support in trunk.
[15:15]	Revolution Smythe: 	yes ti does
[15:15]	Revolution Smythe: 	it*
[15:15]	BlueWall Slade: 	it is there
[15:15]	Revolution Smythe: 	but that is in trunk
[15:15]	Revolution Smythe: 	not on pre Presence refactor
[15:15]	Haku Mhia: 	it's just an idea
[15:16]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Cool
[15:16]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	it may go into, or even be in post-fixes.. i'm not sure as i have been lazy with reading logs lately
[15:16]	Jacek Antonelli: 	That'll be a fun one for creators
[15:16]	BlueWall Slade: 	in the *prefix branch??
[15:16]	Revolution Smythe: 	its not in post fixes
[15:16]	Armin Weatherwax: 	Marcus Llewellyn: yeah, i didn't figure out how to start it yet :(
[15:16]	BlueWall Slade: 	ohh
[15:16]	Revolution Smythe: 	ill release my version sometime
[15:17]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Awesome, Rev
[15:17]	Revolution Smythe: 	i have it workng on sqlite a wel
[15:17]	Jacek Antonelli: 	What other things would you guys like in a viewer?
[15:17]	Revolution Smythe: 	aswell*
[15:17]	BlueWall Slade: 	are the osFunctions in the scripting editor?
[15:17]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	On the subject of object im/export, I'd like to see prim contents (textures, notecards, scripts, etc) exported as well.
[15:17]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	another couple of things i would love to see in a viewer, though i have no idea how possible they are, are higher graphics FPS and fix the alpha issue
[15:17]	Jacek Antonelli: 	So far I've got stability, memory use, LightSHare, content export, and font bold/italic/etc
[15:18]	Haku Mhia: 	well something i come up with only a fem mins a go so not much of a concept for it but some kind of intergrated "xstreet" like function
[15:18]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Can you describe the alpha issue, Adelle?
[15:18]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	1bit alpha!
[15:18]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	hrm, hard to put into words, but distand alpha textures come infront of close alpha testures
[15:18]	Haku Mhia: 	would save alot of content creators looking for land to share there work
[15:18]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	*statant
[15:18]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Ah, right
[15:18]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	*distant
[15:19]	Penny Lane: 	Perhaps we should start from the Opensim end, rather than from the viewer end. What things that are different in Opensim (versus SL) are not supported in viewers, because they were of no interest to LL?
[15:19]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yes, there are some issues with alpha textures being sorted in ways that seem wrong
[15:19]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	I think a marketplace function would need server support.
[15:19]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	I just want this: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-6713
[15:19]	Mic Bowman: 	variable sized regions
[15:19]	BlueWall Slade: 	something in the rendering pipeline to put the dynamic textures in front would be pretty nice
[15:19]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	That would make me REALLY happy.
[15:19]	Penny Lane: 	Mic++
[15:19]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	i know if you turn on fast alphas, that problem pretty much goes away, but the alpha textures then get the grey halo and flicker
[15:20]	Penny Lane: 	Cross-grid IM
[15:20]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	Maybe there should be a way to see if an alpha texture does use gradients?
[15:20]	Pete Atolia: 	yeah, as comes to features, i really think we have to take new users in mind. We've been stuck with LL styled viewers for years, and they're not noob friendly. Maybe some opensim-specific things such as megaregion land texture tools for ex
[15:20]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	A simple checkbox on a texture should mark it as a 1-bit alpha mask.
[15:20]	Armin Weatherwax: 	penny ++
[15:20]	Haku Mhia: 	vross grid im would be interesting but dependant on the grids that support it
[15:20]	Haku Mhia: 	*cross
[15:20]	dan banner: 	i'd like to see a way to add menu items.. like under the help section or a new dropdown for customized entries, things like certain web pages, HG links, etc
[15:20]	Penny Lane: 	We should be able to have common IM groups between OSgrid and 3rd Rock Grid for example
[15:21]	Revolution Smythe: 	dan: you can already do that
[15:21]	dan banner: 	how?
[15:21]	Revolution Smythe: 	its in the .xml files
[15:21]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	dan: XML hacks
[15:21]	dan banner: 	ahh
[15:21]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Worth considering having an easier way to do it, though
[15:21]	Pete Atolia: 	my point. Not that User-friendly
[15:21]	dan banner: 	an easy way would be nice.. like in an ini file
[15:21]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	Yeah, but like if you log in A grid you get menus from A grid and if you log into Kitten grid you get entries suitable for Kittengrid....?
[15:22]	Neopallium Granville: 	what about gridder support
[15:22]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	one thing i think would benefit devs of opensim is a way of displaying the actual mesh of a prim or sculptie
[15:22]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	I'd like to see user defined normal maps.
[15:22]	Haku Mhia: 	i think again thats down to the grids that would support the feature
[15:22]	Neopallium Granville: 	to help with HyperGrid
[15:22]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	I think XUI is good enough for menus. (same thing can't said fo other UI elements)
[15:23]	Penny Lane: 	Adelle: wireframe display is already in the viewer
[15:23]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Adelle: Can you explain that? Display the mesh?
[15:23]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	wireframe doesnt display the physics mesh
[15:23]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	You can display the collision box... is that what you want, Adelle?
[15:23]	Penny Lane: 	There is no physicss mesh. You mean bounding box? That's in the viewer too
[15:23]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	Among the modification I made, there is a tool to see the path/profile of a prim.
[15:23]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	a sculptie has an actual physics mesh, but there is not way to actually highlight that mesh
[15:24]	Revolution Smythe: 	there is a physics mesh
[15:24]	Penny Lane: 	It's a boundaing box, not a mesh for physics
[15:24]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	But physics mesh is server-side...
[15:24]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay. If I recall correctly, sculpties use a sphere for the physics
[15:24]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	Not here, jacek
[15:25]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	nope, not in Opensim
[15:25]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Not here? Interesting
[15:25]	Revolution Smythe: 	we use a mesh
[15:25]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	Dahlia would be able to explain better as i believe she implemented it
[15:25]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Neat :D
[15:25]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	Nope... a sculpty can actually interact with a user in a way that's true to it's shape if a simulator is configured for it. Most are... it's the default settings.
[15:25]	Jacek Antonelli: 	That's pretty cool
[15:25]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	VERY cool. :) Means you can do true sculpted terrain. See Neb's deathrace sim for a good example of that
[15:26]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Awesome, I'll have to check it out
[15:26]	Haku Mhia: 	how dose that effect the sims memory usage?
[15:26]	Revolution Smythe: 	or the terrain in bade plaza
[15:26]	Revolution Smythe: 	terrain around bade plaza*
[15:26]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	im not sure about memory, but it does increase CPU a little
[15:26]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	but im assuming that is only when colissions occur
[15:26]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	Doesn't really, Haku. No more than any other prim. Can boost CPU usage a tad, and of course the more AVs you have, the harder physics has to work.
[15:26]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	im not right up on the working of it though
[15:27]	BlueWall Slade: 	the sky, water, etc. could that be defined by the simulator?
[15:27]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, neat. What other sort of viewer stuff?
[15:27]	Revolution Smythe: 	BlueWall: thats lightshare
[15:27]	BlueWall Slade: 	say, I want no water - no terrain, all deep space
[15:27]	Haku Mhia: 	was just wondering i know sculpts dont do much for my it's scripts that cripple my server more then anything
[15:27]	Revolution Smythe: 	ah
[15:27]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	+1 BlueWall
[15:28]	BlueWall Slade: 	or all underwater
[15:28]	Neopallium Granville: 	+1 space sims
[15:28]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Interesting *taking notes*
[15:28]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	It's not my idea, but since Bob Wellman isn't here, I'll shout it out for him. Heightmaps for water.
[15:28]	BlueWall Slade: 	also
[15:28]	BlueWall Slade: 	a map for the water, like the terrain
[15:28]	Baewyn Celara: 	^^
[15:28]	BlueWall Slade: 	so they water tyabel could be adjusted across the sim
[15:28]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	That would be messy for reflection calculation...
[15:28]	Revolution Smythe: 	could be sent like terrain is
[15:28]	Haku Mhia: 	ohh also prim heavy av's they defenetly cripple it and somehow if there to prim heavy i start getting attachment errors
[15:28]	Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (RC1) 54cedfe: 2010-04-08 15:57:57 -0700 (Unix/Mono)	Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (RC1) 54cedfe: 2010-04-08 15:57:57 -0700 (Unix/Mono)
[15:29]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	ahh water, it would be nice if the viewer rendered the 8 surrounding regions water at teh same height as the region you are in
[15:29]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	provided they are void
[15:29]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Good point, Adelle
[15:29]	Pete Atolia: 	wouldn't that be rather a grid policy thing ?
[15:29]	BlueWall Slade: 	or, be able to make creeks, ponds at different altitudes
[15:29]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	++Blue
[15:29]	BlueWall Slade: 	the clouds
[15:29]	Baewyn Celara: 	BlueWall ++
[15:29]	BlueWall Slade: 	and partiocles in general
[15:29]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	sculpted water FTW!
[15:30]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	lol
[15:30]	BlueWall Slade: 	we could use more than 4x4m
[15:30]	Haku Mhia: 	well rot water at different alt's the simple work around is an animated texture on a prim
[15:30]	BlueWall Slade: 	and the cloud layers could be adjustable all the way to the water/ground
[15:30]	Haku Mhia: 	grr turning on light cant see half my keys brb
[15:30]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	Nimble?
[15:30]	Baewyn Celara: 	Or two regions with different ground/water levels
[15:30]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	I would also LOVE to see oblong sculpties fixed. I'm not sure how they're fubared, exactly... but they are.
[15:30]	BlueWall Slade: 	so, with the lightshare, you could also make dynamic weather in the sim
[15:31]	BlueWall Slade: 	including snow, rain
[15:31]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	nice idea
[15:31]	Revolution Smythe: 	BlueWall +1
[15:31]	Pete Atolia: 	agreed would be awesome
[15:31]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	The neverchanging clouds now is boring.
[15:31]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Marcus: Could you describe briefly what the problem with oblong sculpties is? I'm not familiar with it.
[15:31]	BlueWall Slade: 	it wil be, lol
[15:31]	Haku Mhia: 	i would like to see more documentation on sim configuration actually
[15:31]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	Great idea... I love it. Sounda hard though... you'd have to "occlude" the elements... no raining in your house.
[15:31]	BlueWall Slade: 	use the source Luke
[15:32]	BlueWall Slade: 	lol
[15:32]	Haku Mhia facepalms at the pun 	Haku Mhia facepalms at the pun
[15:32]	BlueWall Slade: 	yeah, it is like the clouds
[15:32]	Penny Lane: 	What's the situation with TP'ing from one grid to another, currently? I know that Meerkat had it working at one point, although it was extremely buggy.
[15:32]	Baewyn Celara lets out a loud groan 	Baewyn Celara lets out a loud groan
[15:32]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	Haku, they are changing and evolving that fast atm, its hard to keep up, the source and IRC are your manuals ;)
[15:32]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	Yeah... unfortunately, OpenSim has been in such flux that documentation is a hard thing to do. Lots of word of mouth with that right now.
[15:33]	Haku Mhia: 	fair point but maby something to keepin mind for the future
[15:33]	BlueWall Slade: 	it would be nice to see HyperGrid done right
[15:33]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	it will ahpen one day when things stabalise a bit
[15:33]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	Meerkat's grid2grid TO relied on being able to end a session on one grid, and start one on another without restarting the viewer. From forum posts I've seen, that's a difficult challenge.
[15:33]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	*happen
[15:33]	Revolution Smythe: 	BlueWall +1
[15:33]	Pete Atolia: 	hypergrid ? vwrap ?
[15:33]	BlueWall Slade: 	maybe by integrating some of the gridder policies in the viewer
[15:33]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	I think oblong sculpting wouldn't be too hard. I tried profile cutting a sculptie and it decreased the details around that axis.
[15:33]	BlueWall Slade: 	vwrap
[15:33]	BlueWall Slade: 	lol
[15:33]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	i believe that is Diva's misson BlueWall
[15:33]	Neopallium Granville: 	Diva made Grider to help with HyperGrid on the viewer side: http://github.com/diva/Grider
[15:34]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	Hypergrid and vwrap each refer to methods for intergrid travel, Pete.
[15:34]	BlueWall Slade: 	but, that needs to be part of the viewer
[15:34]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	right
[15:34]	Pete Atolia: 	yeah i know i was just wondering about hypergrid nowadays
[15:34]	BlueWall Slade: 	Hypergrid works now
[15:34]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	Oops.. mea culpa. :)
[15:34]	Haku Mhia: 	but on both grids you have to have an account right ?
[15:34]	Pete Atolia: 	yes but lots of drawbacks
[15:34]	Penny Lane: 	VWRAP and the old Cable Beach and the new SimianGrid, all focus on services. To be able to support that, you have to be able to handle multiple different asset services for example.
[15:34]	BlueWall Slade: 	the assets and inventory are the issues
[15:34]	Penny Lane: 	Yeah
[15:35]	Pete Atolia: 	sure. Anyhow, it's the fture
[15:35]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah, none of the LL-based viewers have great support for multiple grids per session. The viewer wasn't built for that, so the guts will have to be rearranged quite a bit
[15:35]	BlueWall Slade: 	I think vwrap wil be a looooong time comming
[15:35]	Neopallium Granville: 	Haku: you don't need accounts on both grids
[15:35]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	Hypergrid doesn't require mutliple accounts... it sorta kinda designates "home" services for a foriegn region to refer to.
[15:35]	Haku Mhia: 	kk was just wondering ....clueless about hypergrid
[15:35]	Pete Atolia: 	not that sure about vwrap taking that long. the urge is strong
[15:36]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	im not sure if it is much relevant, but may be at some point in the future, but that is a 4th object permissions box, for 'grid transfer', so along with the traditional copy, mod, xfer, there is one that denotes whether people can export/import it
[15:36]	Penny Lane: 	BlueWall: I think so too. But on the other hand, Hurli has a reputation for working very fast in bursts :-)
[15:36]	BlueWall Slade: 	the issue is having some assets that have certain perms on your grid, then having someone HG off top their standalone and invoking God powers to nix them
[15:36]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	VWRAP has lots od mailing list discussions... and that's all. No drafts, no nothing.
[15:36]	Penny Lane: 	Marcus: that's not stopping Hurli
[15:36]	Mic Bowman: 	??
[15:36]	Haku Mhia: 	i have alot of questions about it i'll save for another time
[15:36]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	that would take a lot of the onus away from the viewer having to lock export/import to the traditional 3 perms and or the creator etc
[15:36]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	I hope not. Penny. But then nothing usually does stop him. Hehe
[15:36]	Mic Bowman: 	there's quite a bit of discussion on going about vwrap
[15:36]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	Speaking of perms...
[15:37]	Pete Atolia: 	Marcus : reason why, as always in Open source projects, developpers begin to experiment
[15:37]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	I think support for an explicit permission allowing intergrid ex/import might solve a lot of problems.
[15:37]	Pete Atolia: 	(right now)
[15:37]	Neopallium Granville: 	Marcus +1
[15:37]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	thats what i said :P
[15:37]	Pete Atolia: 	it's more a question of authoritative intergrid services
[15:37]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yep, a checkbox for grid transfer like Adelle and Marcus say would be good
[15:37]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	just not in those words hehe
[15:37]	Pete Atolia: 	like internet NICs
[15:37]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	I think that's not a great idea.
[15:37]	BlueWall Slade: 	it is my understanding that gridder does some of that?
[15:38]	Jacek Antonelli: 	What are some annoying things you guys face in your day-to-day OpenSim use that could be improved in the viewer?
[15:38]	Pete Atolia: 	no cofee machine included !!
[15:38]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehehe
[15:38]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	inventory backup
[15:38]	Haku Mhia: 	that not easy to say for the moast part Hippo pwons
[15:38]	Baewyn Celara: 	inventory backup
[15:39]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	kiding... kidding
[15:39]	BlueWall Slade: 	somwe of the things like the SL specific things we see
[15:39]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	A way to whack the OpenSim devs with a fish.
[15:39]	BlueWall Slade: 	I think the general search
[15:39]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	we have it atm, but is simulator based, so anyone that doesnt ahve a sim cannot backup their inventory
[15:39]	Haku Mhia: 	maby a change to the inventory ui
[15:39]	Revolution Smythe: 	Marcus : +5
[15:39]	Revolution Smythe: 	lol
[15:39]	Pete Atolia: 	Haku +
[15:39]	Penny Lane: 	You need to understand that therre are two different things going on in VWRAP at the IETF. One is working towards some interop mechanisms. But another is fighting to stop LL from turning VWRAP into something that helps nobody but them. So you sometimes don't see much visible progress, but it's still useful by stopping LL from moving interop backwards.
[15:39]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay. A way to back up your whole inventory in one go?
[15:39]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	Some sort of a inventory export cap?
[15:39]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	Support for OAR/IAR files in the viewer would be swEEEEEt.
[15:39]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	yes Jacek, or even partly, and restore as a whole or partly
[15:40]	Pete Atolia: 	agreed Penny
[15:40]	dan banner: 	ye4s jacek
[15:40]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	\
[15:40]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	God tools for OpenSim?
[15:40]	Revolution Smythe: 	od tools work
[15:40]	Revolution Smythe: 	god*
[15:40]	Revolution Smythe: 	or will
[15:40]	Revolution Smythe: 	hehe
[15:40]	Haku Mhia: 	the filters are hidden away under the file tab i'd like to see a drop down menu to filter certain asset types in your inventory ie scripts, clothing, objects ect just makes it easyer to access
[15:40]	Pete Atolia: 	yup
[15:40]	BlueWall Slade: 	how about alpha avatar skins?
[15:40]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	oh yes, an option to reset filters on login
[15:40]	Pete Atolia: 	and inventory links too
[15:40]	BlueWall Slade: 	that one should be easy?
[15:41]	Revolution Smythe: 	shared media from SL 2
[15:41]	Baewyn Celara: 	improved rendering
[15:41]	Haku Mhia: 	i know a simple fix but i think it would make inventory more user friendly
[15:41]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	Imprudence probably can't pack flush plugin... err, I mean Flash plugin and H.264 decoding, though.
[15:41]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	another avatar clothes layer, the under-underwear layer for atttoos and such
[15:41]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	*tattoos
[15:41]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	Can it?
[15:41]	Baewyn Celara: 	Adelle++
[15:41]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Haku: Tell us about it
[15:42]	Haku Mhia: 	well it's kinda taken from nielife tbh
[15:42]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Oh, you mean the filters you said before
[15:42]	Haku Mhia: 	it was a feature of that viewer i liked
[15:42]	Jacek Antonelli had a parsing error 8) 	Jacek Antonelli had a parsing error 8)
[15:42]	Pete Atolia: 	definitely
[15:42]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	Gray avatars. That's a daily hassle for us. I know there are server side tweaks that try to address that... but would viewer side tweaks help further, I wonder?
[15:43]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Avatar textures not loading / being slow?
[15:43]	Baewyn Celara: 	Oh yeah a rebake avatars on screen.
[15:43]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	i really think that is more of a lost packet issue, Marcus
[15:43]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	Yup... but could a viewer re-request that?
[15:43]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Good idea
[15:44]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	Not sure if it should be manual (menu item) or automatic, but it would be nice either way
[15:44]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	But then how do you know fetching failed?
[15:44]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	manual would be a good start
[15:44]	Haku Mhia: 	manual would be better for cup / mem usage
[15:44]	Haku Mhia: 	*cpu
[15:44]	BlueWall Slade: 	I don't know the legal ins-and-aouts, but if there are issues that some inside info would help, it would be nice to see
[15:44]	Penny Lane: 	Good idea Marcus. OSgrid ended up adding a web-driven avatar reload facility, as a terrible kludge for avatars that won't rez. That could be done properly now, with a viewer that supports Opensim directly.
[15:45]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	you mean the purge appearence, Penny?
[15:45]	Penny Lane: 	Yeah
[15:45]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	yes, that would be cool if viewer driven
[15:45]	Baewyn Celara: 	@BlueWall: The Flash video/H.264
[15:46]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	that Jacek, works by purging the avatar appearence tables for said avatar in the grid DB
[15:46]	Haku Mhia: 	i cant think of an automates method that wouldnt require reatative clause checks or update calls
[15:46]	Haku Mhia: 	*repatitive
[15:46]	Penny Lane: 	The viewer code doesn;'t load Flash itself, and doesn't need to. Webkit simply loads the existing Flash plugin if you have it installed.
[15:47]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Does the user's viewer then re-bake and upload after the appearance table purge?
[15:47]	Penny Lane: 	(In the V2.0 MoapP facility)
[15:47]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Or how does that go?
[15:47]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	it only works after a relog and turns you back to Ruth
[15:47]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Ahhh
[15:47]	Baewyn Celara: 	ug
[15:47]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I see
[15:47]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	all attachments and clothes are basically taken off
[15:47]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Gotcha
[15:48]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	I was under the impression that was meant for worst case, i.e. people who are persistance clouds.
[15:48]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	it is, and is probably used less frequently these days, but is still a handy tool for corrupt textures and stuff that are uploaded and applied
[15:48]	BlueWall Slade: 	a lot of times, just taking off everything works
[15:49]	Haku Mhia: 	the persistant clouds is something ll havent even fixed as to my knoledge
[15:49]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	if you are a cloud though blueWall, the vieer wont let you change your appearence at all
[15:49]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay
[15:49]	BlueWall Slade: 	yes
[15:49]	Revolution Smythe: 	theres something we could change
[15:49]	Revolution Smythe: 	allow editing even thogh the appearance hasn't loaded fully
[15:49]	Penny Lane: 	Yep
[15:49]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Someone mentioned earlier SL-specific things as being an annoyance. What are some examples of that?
[15:49]	BlueWall Slade: 	the general search
[15:49]	Baewyn Celara: 	or abort appearance to ruth
[15:50]	BlueWall Slade: 	that takes you to the SL search
[15:50]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	Search really is a pain.
[15:50]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Ah, yeah
[15:50]	Haku Mhia: 	the crappy basic avatar
[15:50]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	search is pretty much broken on OSgrid atm :(
[15:50]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	ANything that has a hardcoded URI is dterimental
[15:50]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Is there a replacement search page for OSGrid?
[15:50]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	it only works for avatars and groups
[15:50]	Haku Mhia: 	i read some threads about osgrid search
[15:50]	Haku Mhia: 	check the forums on that topic
[15:50]	BlueWall Slade: 	the All (wenb) one
[15:50]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Ok
[15:50]	Revolution Smythe: 	search works fine if one would finish it
[15:51]	Revolution Smythe: 	the All tab deos not though
[15:51]	Revolution Smythe: 	does*
[15:51]	BlueWall Slade: 	showcase
[15:51]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	the crawler is turned off atm on OSgrid
[15:51]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	cos its broke
[15:51]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	One of the great things about viewer dev interest in OpenSim is that the OpenSim devs just don't bother with some things because they can't change the veiwer. Search is probably a good example of one of those things.
[15:51]	Revolution Smythe: 	well, we need a replaement then :P
[15:51]	Haku Mhia: 	maby 2 types of search thou .... local grid and hypergrid search
[15:51]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	i think we are waiting until we go P-R before it will be fixed
[15:52]	BlueWall Slade: 	that's the rules, no peeking at the viewer code
[15:52]	Penny Lane: 	Haku++
[15:52]	Revolution Smythe: 	i have search working with everything that can work without viewer mods, so i can release that if osg would want it
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, so that's something for server and viewer devs to work with each other
[15:52]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	inclusion of all the specific ossl functions into the script function library would be nice :)
[15:52]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	Adelle++
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Oh, right
[15:52]	BlueWall Slade: 	thesim could send a packet to tell the viewer those things, if it were interested
[15:53]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	I suspect more than a few things would require protocol changes/tweaks.
[15:53]	Penny Lane: 	In fact, lots of types of search! LL never provided anything but the most rudimentary things to search. Sounds like we could do with some search services. In fact, I'm tempted to bring it up in VWRAP, just to stir some discussion about search.
[15:53]	BlueWall Slade: 	maybe some extension like the gridinfo
[15:53]	BlueWall Slade: 	Penny ++
[15:54]	BlueWall Slade: 	al those things should be open - search , events, etc.
[15:54]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	simulator version in the viewer header bar would be cool also
[15:54]	Penny Lane: 	Basically, if something exists, it should be searchable. That broad :-)
[15:54]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	i think that was in neillife
[15:54]	Neopallium Granville: 	opensim should allow region crawling by search engines, so outside people can run their own search engine search
[15:54]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	I know something that I'd love that requires a new packet, probably. And that would be custom linden plants. They all live viewer side at the moment... would love to see the data for those moved server side and sent to the viewer. Plant parameters set via a script.
[15:54]	Baewyn Celara: 	Adelle you can get that in the estate tools
[15:54]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	it would be nice to just have it 'there' though ;)
[15:54]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Oof, another crash. Can someone IM me the past 3 minutes or so of chat?
[15:55]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	Sure.
[15:55]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	15 people send jacek 3 mins of chat... <grin>
[15:55]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Thanks
[15:55]	Neopallium Granville: 	if outside services could crawl regions, a search engine like google could provide hypergrid search support
[15:55]	Baewyn Celara: 	cool, though I don't know if I like google being able to do that.
[15:56]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	ill pastebin the full log for you after the meeting if you like, Jacek
[15:56]	Penny Lane: 	JacekL I would normally, but 1 FPS today :-(
[15:56]	BlueWall Slade: 	it would have to be presented in the right way
[15:56]	Jacek Antonelli: 	That would be handy, Adelle :)
[15:56]	Haku Mhia: 	well yeah if you have a dedecated website to hypergrid search funnction
[15:57]	BlueWall Slade: 	but, a first step would be getting the searches and things aimed at the grid your' on
[15:57]	Haku Mhia: 	eeach grid sends db info to that site that is hypergrid compatable
[15:57]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	Blue++
[15:57]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	i think Diva already has something like that setup
[15:57]	BlueWall Slade: 	Diva could probably use some viewer support in that
[15:57]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, so Search is an issue. What are other SL-specific annoying things?
[15:58]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	Hey, do abuse/bug reports in the viewer point to LL specific services?
[15:58]	Haku Mhia: 	atm i have 45 gb mothly bandwidth on a free hosting site for example
[15:58]	Revolution Smythe: 	no
[15:58]	Revolution Smythe: 	they do not
[15:58]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	kk
[15:58]	Revolution Smythe: 	i have abuse reports working, so i know that :P
[15:58]	BlueWall Slade: 	do you remember the orientation island tutorial?
[15:58]	Haku Mhia: 	that wouuuld be fine for a search engin wouldnt it ?
[15:58]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	http://www.metaverseink.com/blog/?p=17 <-- Diva's serach thingy
[15:58]	BlueWall Slade: 	knowing how to fire that up wold be pretty grand
[15:59]	Penny Lane: 	Diva would be a good person to ask for ideas --- her Diva Distro might well have some wishlist requirements.
[15:59]	Revolution Smythe: 	loginXML setting i believe bluewall
[15:59]	BlueWall Slade: 	ahhh, ok, Tnx
[16:00]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	slurls
[16:00]	BlueWall Slade: 	+++++++++++++
[16:00]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	++!
[16:00]	BlueWall Slade: 	osurls
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Ah, yes
[16:00]	BlueWall Slade P 	BlueWall Slade P
[16:00]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	There's an osim: spec out there somewheres, ain'tthere?
[16:00]	Baewyn Celara: 	YES Adelle+=100
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Is there an alternative protocol for that?
[16:00]	Haku Mhia: 	what about scrapping slurs for a different format
[16:00]	Haku Mhia: 	save them getting confused with sl
[16:01]	BlueWall Slade: 	mvurl
[16:01]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	opensim://regionname/coords :)
[16:01]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Ideally something that communicates the grid location in addition to the region and coordinates
[16:01]	Haku Mhia: 	or ogulr
[16:01]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	or something similar
[16:01]	Baewyn Celara: 	oo
[16:01]	BlueWall Slade: 	osurl://grid/region/x/y/z
[16:01]	Neopallium Granville: 	opensim://osgrid.org/reginname/coords
[16:01]	Baewyn Celara: 	mvurl://gridname.regionname/x/y/z
[16:01]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah
[16:02]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Do any of these exist yet? As proposals?
[16:02]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	not that I am aware of
[16:02]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	DrScofield fielded an idea a while ago: http://xyzzyxyzzy.net/2009/01/07/addressing-places-in-virtual-worldsor-why-slurls-are-bad/
[16:02]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	maps.osgrid.org/region/x/y/z ?
[16:02]	Armin Weatherwax: 	opensim://example.net:8002/regionname/coords
[16:02]	Haku Mhia: 	well im thjinking hypergrid compatability
[16:03]	Haku Mhia: 	since there are multiple grids now
[16:03]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	rezzme: is pretty cool name.
[16:03]	Baewyn Celara: 	hence why gridname is in two of the idea put forth
[16:03]	Haku Mhia: 	hypergrid seems to be the future of opensource sl
[16:03]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	Yeah... DrSco's idea is pretty solid.
[16:03]	BlueWall Slade: 	until the assets/inventory are worked out the hg won't be in a lot of places
[16:04]	Haku Mhia: 	yeah but it's a feature alot of ppl are interested in
[16:04]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	HG is very proof of concept right now. It's wanted, and there's lots of enthusiasm, but it's a prototype still.
[16:04]	BlueWall Slade: 	yes
[16:04]	BlueWall Slade: 	it works great
[16:05]	BlueWall Slade: 	better that OGP ever did
[16:05]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	True that
[16:05]	Haku Mhia: 	thing is if the unified code can be created grid hosters will use it
[16:05]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	We lose jacek again?
[16:05]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	yikes, Jacek crashed again
[16:05]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	I blame the children.
[16:05]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	maybe she should try Hippo :P
[16:05]	BlueWall Slade: 	lol
[16:05]	Revolution Smythe: 	hehe
[16:05]	Haku Mhia: 	i blame hamsters
[16:05]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	The hamsters have escaped the wheel! Run for your lives!
[16:06]	BlueWall Slade: 	hamburgers?
[16:06]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	wibble, jacek
[16:06]	Jacek Antonelli returns from another crash, and underlines "Stability" three times in her notes 	Jacek Antonelli returns from another crash, and underlines "Stability" three times in her notes
[16:06]	Baewyn Celara: 	LOL
[16:06]	Marcus Llewellyn grins impishly at jacek 	Marcus Llewellyn grins impishly at jacek
[16:06]	Penny Lane: 	You do have media off, right? Neb's video screen is inimical to virtual life :P I always keep my back to it :-)
[16:06]	Haku Mhia: 	hyper grid seems the next evolutin for these grids
[16:07]	Baewyn Celara: 	og gtg nice hearing and talking about things to have bye
[16:07]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	The point is that a viewer shouln't be dependent on any single grid, really.
[16:07]	Revolution Smythe: 	cya Baewyn
[16:07]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Take care Baewyn
[16:07]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	B'bye, Baewyn
[16:07]	Haku Mhia: 	well the grid problem is dependant on each grids asperations
[16:07]	BlueWall Slade: 	g'bye Baewyn
[16:07]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	bye Baeweyn
[16:07]	Haku Mhia: 	some are focused on comunity inter action
[16:07]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	Then it maybe shoudln't be called a "viewer". A "viewer" is a client coupled with LL's "generator".
[16:08]	Penny Lane: 	Yes. Hypergrid is basically one variation on the direction that VWRAP/CB/SimianGrid is taking --- decoupled asset services.
[16:08]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Oh, since we're at the end of the hour, I'd like to abuse my powers as UXIG organizer to plug Imprudence, which has implemented several of the things suggested today. }:)
[16:08]	Haku Mhia: 	some are focused on makeing profit or other concepts
[16:08]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	Free liquor?
[16:08]	Jacek Antonelli: 	No free liquor yet
[16:08]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	damnit
[16:08]	Haku Mhia: 	i will make free booze afer i finish my claw sabers
[16:08]	BlueWall Slade: 	I will file a report on the OpenSUSE crashes
[16:09]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	Does Impridence have a bug tracker? I know there's forums/wiki...
[16:09]	BlueWall Slade: 	I will give a quick try at building it here to see if it wil fly
[16:09]	Jacek Antonelli: 	But it does have content export, radar, quick-filter in th inventory, and others. And soon it will have LightShare, AO, and more
[16:09]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	oh, one last thing, there is a bug where you can't TP over 4096 grid cells, if that could be fixed it would be a major bonus for getting people to use Imprudence
[16:10]	Marcus Llewellyn whispers: Adelle++++ 	Marcus Llewellyn whispers: Adelle++++
[16:10]	Haku Mhia: 	sim froze as i was setting my llset prim pramiters function
[16:10]	Neopallium Granville: 	Adelle ++
[16:10]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yes, we have an issue tracker, if you're experienced with bug reports feel free to use it: http://redmine.imprudenceviewer.org/projects/imprudence/issues
[16:10]	BlueWall Slade: 	yes, that is an old one
[16:10]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	Danke, Jacek. :)
[16:11]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	Ya know... it's harder to think of things than I thought. You get so used to not having some things, or working around others, that they fall out of your brain.
[16:11]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	hehe i know that feeling
[16:11]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah, hehe
[16:11]	BlueWall Slade: 	lost the marbles, eh?
[16:11]	Haku Mhia: 	well sofar i tryed to work on the things i really liked about other viewers
[16:11]	Jacek Antonelli: 	If anything pops into your head later, email me -- jacek.antonelli at gmail.com
[16:12]	Haku Mhia: 	nielife for example had some really great featurres outside onf it's copybot stuff
[16:12]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	The post to the OpenSim-user list was awesome jacek. I might have missed the meeting if not for that.
[16:12]	Haku Mhia: 	the built in ao thing it got from emmerald was nice too
[16:12]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	Emerald AO's are a kludge, though. :P
[16:13]	Haku Mhia: 	not saying it couldnt be done better
[16:13]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	Yup, it definitely needs a UI redesign
[16:13]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah, Emerald's AO is awkward. But, better than nothing. We've ported it for the next version of Imprudence, but I'd like to come up with something better later
[16:13]	Haku Mhia: 	and boobie4 wobble needed some rework
[16:13]	dan banner: 	how about a viewer based translator?
[16:14]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	Like the one in Snowglobe?
[16:14]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	thanks for this meeting, Jacek, and especially for having it on OSgrid ;)
[16:14]	BlueWall Slade: 	that is a great idea
[16:14]	dan banner: 	instead of a scripted one
[16:14]	Haku Mhia: 	i'd prefer to see that as a hud item
[16:14]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hehe, it was fun
[16:14]	BlueWall Slade: 	yes thanks Jacek
[16:14]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	Adelle: Well, every grid needs a UXIG.
[16:14]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	if you ever need any info on OSgrid, the please do give myself, Nebadon, Coyled or Hiro a shout in IRC
[16:14]	Haku Mhia: 	it's doable without adding to viewer as it is
[16:14]	Jacek Antonelli: 	We'll be having another discussion next week, same time, same place. The topic will be: How the viewer might evolve if it weren't limited to SL compatibility
[16:14]	Jacek Antonelli: 	We'll probably get into some pretty far-out wild stuff
[16:14]	BlueWall Slade: 	ohhhhhh
[16:15]	Haku Mhia: 	gotta admit i totally loved this discussion
[16:15]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	nice
[16:15]	Armin Weatherwax: 	sounds great
[16:15]	Penny Lane: 	Great topic, Jacek!
[16:15]	Haku Mhia: 	would only be better if we had software devs here
[16:15]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Penny: Hehe, great topic yourself. You came up with them back in November :)
[16:15]	BlueWall Slade: 	first login - the avatar crawls out of a box of packing peanuts
[16:15]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	lol Blue
[16:15]	Penny Lane: 	:P
[16:15]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	haha
[16:16]	Haku Mhia: 	and really good to get an idea bout what others here are thinking
[16:16]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, I think we'll adjourn for this week. I hope to see you guys next week as well. Thanks for coming, and take care! :)
[16:16]	dan banner: 	later jacek, thanks
[16:16]	BlueWall Slade: 	thanks
[16:16]	Marcus Llewellyn: 	Thanks so very much, jacek. :)
[16:16]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Adelle, would you mind pastebinning the transcript for me? <3
[16:16]	Armin Weatherwax: 	take care :)
[16:16]	Adelle Fitzgerald: 	kk, if you hang about a sec, Jacek, ill pastebin this log