Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.03.26

Simulator_User_Group
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== List of Speakers ==
Andrew Linden 	Baker Linden 	Chieron Tenk
CoSysOp 	Duckie Dickins 	Inara Pey
Kallista Destiny	Kelly Linden 	Kennylex Luckless
Lexbot Sinister 	Lucia Nightfire 	MartinRJ Fayray
Motor Loon 	Nalates Urriah 	NeoBokrug Elytis
Qie Niangao 	Rex Cronon 	Rohacan Hirons
Simon Linden 	Sylvie Etoile 	TankMaster Finesmith
TheBlack Box 	Theresa Tennyson	Whirly Fizzle
Yuzuru Jewell 	 	
== Transcript ==
[12:02] Baker Linden: I suppose I can start with my news.
[12:02] Baker Linden: Hello Andrew!
[12:03] TankMaster Finesmith: its halfway decent
[12:03] Andrew Linden: Hello.
[12:03] MartinRJ Fayray: Hello Andrew
[12:03] Rohacan Hirons: Hi
[12:03] Baker Linden: So I'm still writing the documentation for the group ban project. There's a lot of little details and catches that I'd like to get ironed out before I start developing the systems needed.
[12:04] Baker Linden: Also, while I'm doing this, there are a few more issues that I'll be fixing along the way
[12:04] Whirly Fizzle: Cool :)
[12:04] Lexbot Sinister: Wow!
[12:04] Whirly Fizzle: So cant wait for this hehe
[12:04] TankMaster Finesmith: what! you draft out what your going to do before actually doing it??
[12:04] Baker Linden: like the ability to search for people properly (i.e. no period inbetween first and last names
[12:04] Duckie Dickins: you writing it up on the wiki or internally?
[12:04] Baker Linden: Well, I do, Tank :P
[12:04] TankMaster Finesmith: thats so not in the spirit of coding! :P
[12:04] Baker Linden: I'm writing it up internally
[12:04] Whirly Fizzle: Legacy name search??? OMG I <3 you
[12:05] Baker Linden: yeah, i had the fix for it sitting in a repo, but I never was able to test it
[12:05] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
[12:05] Baker Linden: now I have that ability
[12:05] Baker Linden: so it'll be part of the group ban project
[12:05] TankMaster Finesmith: nice
[12:05] Baker Linden: there's another one too... let me find it
[12:05] Sylvie Etoile: yay!
[12:05] Baker Linden: oh, the disallowing of leading spaces on display names
[12:05] Baker Linden: I'll fix that too while I'm poking around in there
[12:05] Whirly Fizzle: Oh Tonya filed that I think
[12:05] ANSI Soderstrom whispers: i shall go to minna, there is a grief
[12:05] Baker Linden: that's correct, Whirly!
[12:06] Whirly Fizzle: SVC-8127
[12:06] Baker Linden: I'm in that system, so I'll be fixing that too
[12:06] Sylvie Etoile: Yay Simon!
[12:06] Simon Linden: Hi everyone - sorry I'm late
[12:06] Lexbot Sinister: Thats going to create some interesting group/sim rivalities for sure, but, what would SL be without the drama <3
[12:06] Rex Cronon: hi simon
[12:06] TankMaster Finesmith: kelly!
[12:07] Kelly Linden: hi.
[12:07] Duckie Dickins: Is there beer delivery services in San Fran? It sounds like we need to send baker some beer for the great fixes coming up. :D
[12:07] Rex Cronon: hi kelly.
[12:07] Simon Linden: did you guys talk about releases already?
[12:07] TankMaster Finesmith: nothing yet
[12:07] TankMaster Finesmith: just baker's group ban
[12:07] Rex Cronon: why drama lexbot?
[12:07] Simon Linden: ok ... well, here's the forum link: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2013-03-25/td-p/1945303
[12:07] Lexbot Sinister: I think i mistinterpreted it. i was thinking of banning a group from land, and not banning an individual from a group.
[12:08] Simon Linden: This morning the main channel was updated
[12:09] Simon Linden: Tomorrow there's going to be a new maintenance version going to BlueSteel and LeTigre
[12:09] Simon Linden: The interest list code in Magnum gets updated with what was promoted to the main channel this morning
[12:10] Andrew Linden: Really? That's news to me. Something failed for that code?
[12:11] Rohacan Hirons: It seems I had some issue with the interest list, I rezzed a bike, ride it and run.. some parts of the bike did not follow xD But I had no time to verify this again and again. I was on this viewer (Nirans) and did not tryed with the official one (that I usually use) It was on NLab Inc (main channel) Sorry for missing time to test it more
[12:11] Whirly Fizzle: Oh thats a viewer rendering bug & shouldnt happen on Viewer 3
[12:11] Andrew Linden: Oh I see what Simon means, Magnum is inheriting the same updates that were promoted.
[12:11] Theresa Tennyson: Besides, main channel has issues anyway.
[12:12] Andrew Linden: *Whew!*
[12:12] Rex Cronon: the tires got left behind;)
[12:12] Rohacan Hirons: Thanks (I'll try to repro this when I have more time, just to be sure)
[12:12] Simon Linden: Rohacan - yeah, if you can reproduce it on the Linden viewer that would be a great help.
[12:12] MartinRJ Fayray: Rohacan that sounds like a known viewer issue
[12:12] MartinRJ Fayray: Could you check if it's gone in the beta viewer?
[12:13] Whirly Fizzle: Roh, if its the problem Im thinking of, its a side effect of the fix for sliding doors not being updated. That fix that caused it was backed out of V3
[12:13] Rohacan Hirons: Beta of the LLab's one ? Or a beta of Nirans ?
[12:13] MartinRJ Fayray: LL
[12:13] Rohacan Hirons: Ok
[12:13] Whirly Fizzle: Its https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-1423 (I really hate this closed JIRA >.<)
[12:14] MartinRJ Fayray: STORM-1934 :)
[12:14] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-1934
[#STORM-1934] Viewer 3.4.2 (Beta) breaks almost every sliding door script in SL - Second Life Bug Tracker
[12:14] Rohacan Hirons: I always use the official one, but I'm working on something with RLV currently, that's why I'm on Nirans
[12:14] Whirly Fizzle: 1423 is the "Child prims are "left behind" by animated, moving (physical) linksets"
[12:14] MartinRJ Fayray: Oh that one
[12:14] Whirly Fizzle: Ya, the Tank bug hehe
[12:15] MartinRJ Fayray: Ok sorry for the off-topic ride
[12:15] TankMaster Finesmith: ehat? i got no bugs!
[12:15] Rex Cronon: were the parts left behind having their rotation updated based on the bikes rotation?
[12:15] Simon Linden: That sounds like the same problem
[12:15] Rohacan Hirons: I think my issue is as Whirly descripted it : 1423 is the "Child prims are "left behind" by animated, moving (physical) linksets"
[12:15] MartinRJ Fayray: Should be fixed with the fix for STORM-1934, though
[12:16] MartinRJ Fayray: Right?
[12:16] Whirly Fizzle: Yeps, But the fix thaty caused that is backed out of Viewer 3, so shouldnt repro on official
[12:16] Kennylex Luckless: I had some broblem with grief in Minna, I wounder os LL not can remove images and sounds that griefers often use?
[12:17] MartinRJ Fayray: True, Whirly
[12:17] Rex Cronon: how about known scripts used for griefing, or even objects/prims?
[12:17] Duckie Dickins: they just upload them again
[12:17] Chieron Tenk: I suppose to prevent real content being damaged?
[12:17] Rex Cronon: u have to pay to upload images:)
[12:17] Kennylex Luckless: Yes, but then LL get 10l
[12:17] MartinRJ Fayray: They will just upload it again
[12:17] Simon Linden: I'm not sure about that side of things, Kennylex ... they are very easily replaced
[12:17] Rex Cronon: and sounds
[12:18] Duckie Dickins: PN had a script library on their website for copy/pasting grief scripts so they didn't need to pass them from alt to alt.
[12:18] MartinRJ Fayray: Lol
[12:18] Lucia Nightfire: LL won't remove imagery or sound assets even unless a subpoena is involved
[12:18] Sylvie Etoile: This relates to my "BUG-2012 in pursuance of BUG-1940 - Feature Request: It should be possible to prevent particles crossing parcel borders in the same way that one can disable Object Entry or Build". I asked about last week
[12:18] Chieron Tenk: also, there is not much difference between a sim full of textured cubes or full of wooden ones
[12:18] Whirly Fizzle: Replace all the PN nasty image UUIDS on the server with fluffeh kitties :D
[12:18] Kennylex Luckless: Yes, but no normal user here need images of dead humans and mutilated bodies, replace them with flyffy bunnies.
[12:18] Kallista Destiny: Kitteh!!!
[12:19] Sylvie Etoile: So you can stop partilces rezzing on your land
[12:19] Qie Niangao: Apropos the griefing thing: Is there a mechanism in place for wiping all rezzed objects owned by a particular (griefer) account, Estate-wide or grid-wide? (Sort of a broadcast to the sims, I suppose)
[12:19] Kallista Destiny: They'll just use Mario
[12:19] Rex Cronon: u know. replacing nasty images could be done by viewer
[12:19] TankMaster Finesmith: particles dont technically cross anything, its a purly client side thing
[12:19] Simon Linden: particles are all drawn on the viewer, so they're not really "rezzing" in world either
[12:19] Sylvie Etoile: Simon did you talk you your product guy?
[12:20] Motor Loon: yes there is Qie
[12:20] Simon Linden: but I get your point ... there are some viewer-side particle tools in the pipeline that should be useful
[12:20] Lucia Nightfire: also, this topic sor tof brings me to another question for Baker: Hows the work coming on that fix for the autoreturn bug on stuff that hits region borders as theres explicit imagery spam thats been in Sandbox Island and Extension for over a week thanks to it.
[12:20] Lucia Nightfire: Governance refuses to purge teh regions too.
[12:20] Qie Niangao: Thanks, Motor. It *seemed* like that was happening, finally, for some of the goonSquid junk, but wanted to be sure.
[12:20] Simon Linden: yes, we want to get the ones we just made out ... at least there you can disable that particle source
[12:21] Andrew Linden: Qie, yes there is such a mechanism. It is a little dangerous if accidentally aimed at the wrong stuff.
[12:21] Sylvie Etoile: I started a discussion on SLuniverse.com and you can see the relevant bit here: http://db.tt/vZVgQDWT
[12:21] Simon Linden: Lucia - that's the stuff that's right over the region edge?
[12:21] Qie Niangao: Thanks Andrew. Yes, I understand why it would be dangerous.
[12:22] Lucia Nightfire: its both, Simon, borderless edge or not
[12:22] Lucia Nightfire: I encourage any Linden here to go to one or both of those regions I mentioned to see n example of the bug
[12:22] Sylvie Etoile: Can you tell us more Simon about what these tools might do please?
[12:22] Lucia Nightfire: prepare for nastiness though, lol
[12:23] Motor Loon: Mis-aiming at greifing items has caused troubles before... I seem to remember a huuge megaprim incident °͜°
[12:23] Whirly Fizzle: This is the issue of not being able to return stuff between 255-256?
[12:23] Simon Linden: Sylvie - it makes it easier to disable a particle source in your viewer. You essentailly mute them so they don't make any more particles
[12:24] Lexbot Sinister: Hm. If particles could either detect, or be detected by a region border, same could be done with prims. And then we could have real weather systems that don't cross through prims.
[12:24] Lucia Nightfire: yeah, whirly, it hits a region border and it can't autoreturn or be manually returned
[12:24] Rex Cronon: is that noman's land?
[12:24] Duckie Dickins: is this why when flying my helicopter 2 days ago I hit the edge of the sim and found myself in the water with my vehicle returned?
[12:24] Whirly Fizzle: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-313 (estate tools do not return objects between 255 and 256m )
[12:24] Lucia Nightfire: doesn't do it for everything either, its random objects
[12:24] Lucia Nightfire: region restart will not fix it
[12:24] Sylvie Etoile: That's great Simon but doesn't stop that nastiness actually getting on to your land
[12:25] Baker Linden: BUG-313 is in the release queue, I believe
[12:25] Whirly Fizzle: Yay
[12:25] Simon Linden: It should be in the RC tomorrow
[12:26] Sylvie Etoile: There has been some really disgusting imagery lately from griefers
[12:26] Motor Loon: oh those images are not new Sylvie... yeears and yeears old
[12:27] Lucia Nightfire: yeah, I can't even pull an uploader info from them so pre '09
[12:27] Sylvie Etoile: We need more and better land tools to help us deal with griefing
[12:27] Lucia Nightfire: heh, not happening
[12:27] Kennylex Luckless: Sandbox Island is full of objects that has been there several weeks now, stuck in the void or under land
[12:28] Lexbot Sinister: Agreed. Especially for mainland parcel owners. They are put at the mercy of LL.
[12:28] Lucia Nightfire: I've filed literally over 2 dozen requests for such tools
[12:28] Rex Cronon: u know u don't need to delete those images from database. just change their name:)
[12:28] Sylvie Etoile: I can stop anything except particles or spam coming from neighbouring plots
[12:28] Motor Loon: Current tools are fine enough, LL just needs to hire a "cleanup crew" for those mainland "happanings"
[12:28] Qie Niangao: As far as I can tell, ARs for Land / Encroachment / Particles are piped directly to /dev/null (and always have been).
[12:29] Lucia Nightfire: it was a miracle we got the few resource usage limitations with explicit bans
[12:29] Sylvie Etoile: Motor, there are those two loopholes
[12:29] Duckie Dickins: well they used to have a whole land management team at Linden Estate Services....but I think only Dee Linden is left.
[12:29] Lucia Nightfire: griefers can still insert objects into your region from many regions away too
[12:29] Lucia Nightfire: taht I would love to see fixed
[12:30] Motor Loon: Never seen that happen, and I get greifing on regular basis °͜°
[12:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[12:30] Lucia Nightfire: its not known to many
[12:31] Lucia Nightfire: but it still exists
[12:31] Qie Niangao: (Duckie, I still hear from Guy, too, about as often as Dee)
[12:31] Sylvie Etoile: Simon, you're doing great but we need more to stop what can come from neighbouring plots without making it more difficult for flying
[12:31] Whirly Fizzle: Theres marketplace products specifically to let you do that. Or were. Havnt looked for those for a while.
[12:32] Lucia Nightfire: also, I'd like to see encroaching object return from ajacent regions totally fixed, esp diagonal regions
[12:32] Lucia Nightfire: atm, its hit or miss if it works
[12:32] Andrew Linden: Lucia, that doesn't work?
[12:32] Lucia Nightfire: not 100% of the time
[12:32] Kennylex Luckless: Is it posible for LL to set an time limit for popup messages per seconds to an Agent, I can never imagine that anuone need 20 popup per second.
[12:32] Duckie Dickins: unfortunately all of that is governance and not really development. Let's face it...there's not going to be many new tools for mainland....and estate tools have been deem adequate.
[12:33] TankMaster Finesmith: one a second per sorce would be a good start
[12:33] Andrew Linden: Hrm... I can think of a few ways the encroachment return might fail... mostly to do with mesh objects.
[12:33] Qie Niangao: one thing that would help both Mainland and Estates -- a *lot* -- is https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SCR-19 "Script function to return objects"
[12:33] Lucia Nightfire: yes, theres alot of exploits with mesh today
[12:33] Lucia Nightfire: that long range rez method is one
[12:33] Sylvie Etoile: This last weekend people have been closing down shops in desperation, it's been that bad
[12:33] Lexbot Sinister: Speaking of mesh, will we ever be able to inspect worn mesh?
[12:33] Andrew Linden: Kennylex, yes that is possible. Do you know what script call triggers the popups?
[12:34] Rex Cronon: andrew, is because the bounding box of meshes has errors in its computation?
[12:35] CoSysOp: i just got for few minutes ago a maasive amount on windows from a object who did ask if it can teleport me
[12:35] NeoBokrug Elytis: I think it's llLoadURL
[12:35] Andrew Linden: yes Rex, we would use the object's collision shape for encroachment, but some mesh objects have no collision shape, so for those we use their bounding box instead
[12:35] Whirly Fizzle: The Goonsquad thing uses llLoadURL
[12:35] Lucia Nightfire: also, since this was brought up in beta chat the otehr day: Can we have dialog throttling done on an owner basis like chat and not region. It only takes one owner's hundreds of dialog spammer prims to block everyone else's dialog usage in a region.
[12:36] Andrew Linden: but there might be a slight disagreement between the apparent encroachment and the collision encroachment, which can confuse the viewer UI and also the server
[12:36] Kennylex Luckless: Is is a way to block images from diferent web adreses then?
[12:37] Rex Cronon: don't all images come from ll servers?
[12:37] Simon Linden: Lucy - we were talking about some of the throttles and the fact that a lot of muting is viewer-side. I'm not making any promises, but it's getting some thought
[12:37] Qie Niangao: These UI functions (llLoadURL, llDialog, llMapDestination) really need to be throttled by sender, instead of sleeping the script. (or in addition to sleeping the script)
[12:38] Andrew Linden: Lucia, it might be possible to throttle chat events by owner
[12:38] Whirly Fizzle: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-8080 (Flawed llDialog throttling)
[12:38] Andrew Linden: you're talking about scripted chat spammers?
[12:38] Rex Cronon: are notifications for "llLoadURL, llDialog, llMapDestination" sent to the viewer by http or udp?
[12:38] Sylvie Etoile: We really need the ability to block or at least throttle spam popups and particles from outside our own land
[12:38] Andrew Linden: thanks for the link Whirly
[12:38] Lucia Nightfire: Also, Simon, the "Unable to create item 'Object' that has caused problems on this region" threshold also needs to probably follow owner basis as well. Not sure teh criteria involved, but once that threshold is evaluated and set, any assets rezzed by anyone else in that time frame is also blocked until the region is restarted.
[12:39] Rohacan Hirons: Please keep at list 2 llDialog per second if possible, I sometime have to use many dialog quickly :)
[12:39] Kennylex Luckless: Best wold be that new users has some limitation if not main account has a payment information on file
[12:39] Andrew Linden: Rohacan, what do you mean?
[12:40] Whirly Fizzle: Theres been more cases of the issue Lucia mentioned lately. Especially on Homesteads. The rebking region causing mem allocation to hit the limit
[12:40] Rohacan Hirons: [12:37] Qie Niangao: These UI functions (llLoadURL, llDialog, llMapDestination) really need to be throttled by sender, instead of sleeping the script. (or in addition to sleeping the script)
[12:40] Lucia Nightfire: I happened to have a device rez a prim during soemone's spam attack and it would no longer rez that asset until I replaced it with a new one.
[12:40] Andrew Linden: Thanks for the list of calls Rohacan.
[12:40] Rohacan Hirons: If you change something about llDialog, it would be necessary sometime (for me at least) to be able to use it 2 time per second
[12:40] Andrew Linden takes notes.
[12:40] Simon Linden: Lucy - really? "any assets rezzed by anyone else in that time frame is also blocked until the region is restarted." So once you hit that, nothing else can be rezzed at all?
[12:41] Lucia Nightfire: right
[12:41] Rex Cronon: it used the same object name. rezzing oan object with same name is banned. i think once the garaygoo limit is reached:(
[12:41] Lucia Nightfire: I explicitly had to go to antoehr region, rez the asset, take a copy, go back to the region it wasn't rezzing at, replace it in the inventory of teh rezzer for it to work
[12:41] Andrew Linden: Rohacan, how *long* would you need to be able to send at 2 Hz? A few seconds or many?
[12:42] Lucia Nightfire: the alternative was to restart the region
[12:42] Whirly Fizzle: Simon, its worse lately because of https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-772 . One that mem allocation limit is reached the region disables rezzing for everyone.
[12:42] Simon Linden: did you shut off all rezzers and let it sit for a while ... 5 to 10 minutes?
[12:42] Lucia Nightfire: its been an issue for quite some time now, had it happen alot in WT, but you can guess why there, lol
[12:42] Rohacan Hirons: Generally no more than.. 5 secondes
[12:42] Rohacan Hirons: It's for sample while using a sitting tools
[12:42] Lucia Nightfire: nno, I didn't want to wait that long it was a security system component
[12:42] Rohacan Hirons: You have to clic a menu, then another, yet another...
[12:42] Lucia Nightfire: which is why I didn't want to bother tryign to get congress to restart teh region either, lol
[12:43] Rohacan Hirons: This does many llDialog calls
[12:43] Rex Cronon: simon. sometimes u can't wait 5 minutes to rez an anti-brifing object:(
[12:43] Rex Cronon: anti-griefing*
[12:43] Simon Linden: ah, ok, if we're hitting the physics memory limit that's a different issue. Yeah, that will shut down everything. Unfortunately it needs to, as the region's become a memory hog
[12:43] Rohacan Hirons: When you have many buttons to clic on it's hard to wait one second between each call xD
[12:43] Qie Niangao: Oh, Rohacan, that's a good point... it's too complicated, but it's sort of "unsolicited" llDialogs that are the problem. Hmmm.
[12:44] NeoBokrug Elytis: Perhaps someday: llReturnObject(list options)
[12:44] Lucia Nightfire: there was no issue with physics memory in the region at the time, nor were my objects physical
[12:45] Lucia Nightfire: if I'm following the right response, lol
[12:45] Qie Niangao: (anyway, yeah, the current goonsquid favorite is good ol' llLoadURL... which has a 10 sec script sleep, that's totally ineffective with lots of objects and lots of scripts)
[12:46] Lucia Nightfire: Neo, llReturnObjects() will come when llTeleportAgent() is fixed, lol
[12:46] Whirly Fizzle: http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/general-sl-discussion/81928-goonsquad.html <--discussion about the Goonsquad griefing
[12:46] Motor Loon: and instant 100% reliable simcrossings...
[12:47] Rex Cronon: i think will come long after that. u see, first tpagent will have to be tested for a while;)
[12:47] NeoBokrug Elytis: Motor: Does it still count if I take all my scripts off?
[12:48] Andrew Linden: It's been a while since I broke legit content trying to remove grief modes.
[12:48] Rohacan Hirons: llTeleportAgent()... fixed and llSetAgentPos() added with it ? (directly change an agent position without teleport effects would be nice)
[12:48] Andrew Linden: I've forgotten the pain and suffering... but I remember the memory.
[12:49] Andrew Linden: I'm tempted to try again.
[12:49] Lucia Nightfire: I still say, give land owner's that right to adjust whatever thresholds they want
[12:49] Lucia Nightfire: resource usage thresholds should always be on a public basis
[12:49] Lexbot Sinister: I hope you don't mean Estate owners, as land owners.
[12:49] Rex Cronon: u r brave:)
[12:49] Lucia Nightfire: not land owner/group member
[12:49] Whirly Fizzle: I will help to take away the interest list pain :P
[12:49] Whirly Fizzle: *It
[12:49] Motor Loon: Personally I think we should just introduce accountability in SL.... you grief... LL hunt you down forever, hire a team of experts just for it too... you can afford it
[12:50] Lucia Nightfire: you want to use more resources, buy soem land, the ultimate sales pitch and deterrent to the common grif vectors
[12:50] Rex Cronon: there r some who use the tor network, so they can't be traced...
[12:50] Motor Loon: you saying they are worldclass hackers and nobody is smarter than them?
[12:51] Motor Loon: coz - in my world, they are dum kids only knowing a select few tricks they read on a PN forum...
[12:51] Rex Cronon: i am saying that is almost impossible to trace somebody that uses tor
[12:51] Rohacan Hirons: 9 minutes left... can I ask a question about an old feature request ? (my reason to be here today)
[12:51] Duckie Dickins: No...they're just saying Tor = VPNs for dummies so anyone can be anonymous...not just the world class hackers. :)
[12:51] Simon Linden: sure Rohacan
[12:52] Rohacan Hirons: Thanks
[12:52] Lucia Nightfire: yeah, most use freebie/trial VPN service
[12:52] Rohacan Hirons: This is about avatar rotation by script : https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-56?
[12:52] Andrew Linden: oy
[12:52] Rohacan Hirons: I'm currently working on a project that need this
[12:52] Duckie Dickins: again? :)
[12:52] TankMaster Finesmith: pathfinding for avatar! :D
[12:53] Rohacan Hirons: I have to use RLV for the rotation, practice, easy to use but not very precise
[12:53] Lucia Nightfire: if you want to turn your av, use a tpv and double click tp, you'll get turned to the SW, lol
[12:53] Andrew Linden: avatar rotation by script is actually hard to do
[12:53] TankMaster Finesmith: luca, LL has dbl click to tp
[12:53] TheBlack Box: pathfinding for the avatar-autopilot movement is a neat idea ! :)
[12:53] Lucia Nightfire: yeah, but the turning of the av doesn't happen on LL's viewer
[12:54] Lucia Nightfire: http://jira.phoenixviewer.com/browse/FIRE-7246 <--FS ref
[12:54] Simon Linden: hmm, well, that goes back 5+ years so I can't absorb the history to get my head around it now
[12:54] NeoBokrug Elytis: There's been a lot of asset loss in the past week. Hope you guys know.
[12:54] Andrew Linden: The reason it is so hard is a legacy thing... the protocol is basically set up such that the viewer tells the server where the avatar should be facing, and the server tries very hard to get it there.
[12:55] Andrew Linden: so in order for the server to turn the avatar, it would have to know when to listen to the viewer and when not
[12:55] Rohacan Hirons: I'm sorry but I can't imagine that it's harder than rotate another physical object ? I'm probably wrong, but I had to have a try, I really want this feature and think it would be usefull for many tools :)
[12:55] Andrew Linden: remembering such a state isn't hard, but figuring out when to transition is hard
[12:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[12:56] Andrew Linden: Rohacan, describe what you're trying to achieve.
[12:56] Lexbot Sinister: Then start the turn at viewer, and have it transition to server..
[12:56] Rohacan Hirons: Thanks for details Andrew
[12:56] Andrew Linden: That is, describe your ideal system and how it would work.
[12:57] Duckie Dickins: if it was only so easy. :) Grid 2.0... avatar 2.0.....group chat 2.0......cosolidated mainland.....the list is endless but now I come back to reality. :)
[12:57] Rohacan Hirons: In my current project it would just be used to change the avatar rotation to face a wall, or turn around an object
[12:57] Lucia Nightfire: while we have time, can you explain this bug fix "Slight region performance improvement when there are no pathfinding characters present "
[12:58] Rohacan Hirons: My project is to climb a wall, plafond (french word, in english ?)
[12:58] Rohacan Hirons: Without RLV it's impossible to face the wall automatically
[12:58] Motor Loon: = PFs turns off until a character is rezzed?
[12:58] Kelly Linden: lucia: when there are no pathfinding characters in the region, there is a slight performance improvement with the new code.
[12:58] Lucia Nightfire: I'm getting my hopes up that we'll get a significant amount of physics timing back, but I won't hold my breath, lol
[12:58] Andrew Linden: Lucia, I'll have to ask Falcon about that bug.
[12:58] Andrew Linden: Rohacan, the turning would be done by script?
[12:58] Kelly Linden: you will get some physics timing back.
[12:59] Rohacan Hirons: This is one idea but I think there are many other project that need the rotation by script
[12:59] Motor Loon: we're talking about very very little aren't we
[12:59] Rohacan Hirons: By script yes
[12:59] Lucia Nightfire: its a shame taht in a region with absolutely 0 prims, taht when PF is enabled, 2ms of physics timing is consumed minimum
[12:59] Qie Niangao: Hmm... actually, llTeleportAgent() has a look_at vector argument, which (I think) works. But that's pretty intrusive for most any application (other than teleporting)
[12:59] Andrew Linden: Rohacan, give some more examples. Simple ones.
[12:59] Lexbot Sinister: Hugging. facing avatars to eachother
[12:59] Duckie Dickins: rotation by script......huggers
[12:59] Rohacan Hirons: Currently the script send the rotation to RLV with llOwnerSay
[12:59] Lucia Nightfire: which is compounded the more prims you add without setting them up, lol
[12:59] Lexbot Sinister: Kissing and virtual sex.
[13:00] Rohacan Hirons: Good point Lex
[13:00] Lexbot Sinister: (remember almost 15 % of the gris is Adult)
[13:00] Lexbot Sinister: grid*
[13:00] Rohacan Hirons: Do not look at animations (made quickly)
[13:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[13:00] Rohacan Hirons: First I have to face the wall
[13:00] Andrew Linden: what would happen if a "turn the avatar" event was triggered and you started mashing on the keyboard to move the avatar elsewhere... what system should win?
[13:01] Rohacan Hirons: And if I go forward now it will turn 180°
[13:01] CoSysOp: almost 90% of users in SL are over 21years and we have only 15% adult area O.o
[13:01] Rex Cronon: u put events in a que?
[13:01] Lexbot Sinister: agreed Rex
[13:01] Nalates Urriah: Age has nothing to do with emotional maturity
[13:01] Andrew Linden: And what if you didn't want a script to be able to turn you... maybe it should only work for attachments?
[13:01] Duckie Dickins: well there's the large bay city areas that were linden public works projects..
[13:01] Rohacan Hirons: Both I think
[13:01] Lexbot Sinister: it would be most likely triggered by button to "align"
[13:02] Rohacan Hirons: The avatar will try to reach the script rotation + or - keyboard rotation
[13:02] Andrew Linden: How do you prevent malicious scripts from turning your avatar?
[13:02] Lexbot Sinister: or by activation an action yourself, like "climb"
[13:02] Simon Linden: it's 1:00 now so I'm going to run away ... thanks everyone for coming today and the good discussion
[13:02] Qie Niangao: Thanks Simon
[13:02] Kelly Linden: thanks all.
[13:02] Lexbot Sinister: Permission to animate
[13:02] Rex Cronon: it would be very weird to have your hat rotate 180 while u stay in same place:)
[13:02] Rohacan Hirons: How do you prevent malicious scripts from rotating your camera ?
[13:02] Kallista Destiny: Andrew Keyboard
[13:02] Duckie Dickins: how do you prevent malicious scripts from deforming your avatar? same way.....be wary...be very very wary. :D
[13:02] Simon Linden: There are some good ideas in there that we'll chew on
[13:02] Inara Pey: Thanks, Simon
[13:02] TankMaster Finesmith: thx for your time and info, simone, andrew, and kelly (and baker!!!)
[13:03] Kallista Destiny: Thanks all
[13:03] Rohacan Hirons: Thanks for your precious time
[13:03] Whirly Fizzle: Thanks everyone
[13:03] Baker Linden: Thanks for coming everyone!
[13:03] Andrew Linden: The server always obey's the viewer's declaration of where it should be looking... unless the avatar is sitting.
[13:03] Nalates Urriah: Thanks all
[13:03] Rex Cronon: tc all those living
[13:03] Rex Cronon: tc baker
[13:03] CoSysOp: thanks lindens for your work
[13:03] Rohacan Hirons: Maybe you can change this Andrew :)
[13:04] Yuzuru Jewell: Thank you, Lindens.
[13:04] Rohacan Hirons: Certainly not an easy job, for sure
[13:04] Andrew Linden: Well Rohacan, I'll think more about it. Maybe it's possible.
[13:04] Rohacan Hirons: Yaaaaaaaaaaay
[13:04] Andrew Linden: There must be a clever way. I don't see it yet.
[13:04] Sylvie Etoile: Thank you Andrew, Baker, Simon, Kelly!
[13:05] Andrew Linden: Thanks for coming.
[13:05] Rohacan Hirons: Thanks Andrew :)
[13:05] Inara Pey: Thanks, Andrew
[13:05] Duckie Dickins: thanks for continuing to have these group sessions
[13:05] Qie Niangao: Rohacan, could it be limited to attachments? Then maybe the script could explicitly take and release control of avatar rotation
[13:05] Kennylex Luckless: Nice farm Baker.
[13:05] Inara Pey: And tahnks for the group ban work, Baker ☻
[13:05] Baker Linden: Thanks Kennylex
[13:05] Baker Linden: Happy to do it, Inara!
[13:05] Rohacan Hirons: I think it HAS TO BE limited to attachments
[13:05] Duckie Dickins: even when they interrupt lunch
[13:06] Lexbot Sinister: Thanks Lindens... see you next week?
[13:06] CoSysOp: we only think how to do new things and prevent griefers to use them
[13:06] Rohacan Hirons: If a tools need to rotate your avatar, give it with a hud that do it, with this new feature
[13:06] Qie Niangao: in that case, it doesn't seem too much weirder than taking and releasing cam control... except it's easier to overide the scripted cam. hmm. I guess it *is* different.
[13:06] CoSysOp: insted of inventing new thinks, anyways what griefers can do with it
[13:07] CoSysOp: we break the speed of inventing news things just because 12 griefers in SL
[13:07] Lexbot Sinister: I think it's clever to think of the obvious exploits at least. It's much harder to fix afterwards
[13:07] CoSysOp: bye people
[13:07] Lucia Nightfire: heh, theres more griefers than that
Simulator_User_Group
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