Content Creation/Scripting User Group/Transcripts/2011 05 16

== List of Speakers ==
Dora Gustafson 	Draconis Neurocam
flexi campfire 	Flip Idlemind
Haravikk Mistral 	Jonathan Yap
Kaluura Boa 	Kelly Linden
Kitteh Scientist 	Moy Loon
Opensource Obscure	Qie Niangao
== Transcript ==
[09:09] Kelly Linden: sorry I'm late.
[09:09] Qie Niangao: hi Kelly
[09:09] Kaluura Boa: Here he is!
[09:09] Haravikk Mistral: Aha! Hey Kelly!
[09:09] Flip Idlemind: [09:08] FlipTool Add On: Kelly Linden is here
[09:09] Kelly Linden: how is everyone doing?
[09:09] Draconis Neurocam: good, yourself kelly?
[09:09] Kitteh Scientist: i see "Fix pending" in SCR-67 <3 Thanks Kelly
[09:09] flexi campfire: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SCR-67
[#SCR-67] llLinkTargetOmega() and/or PRIM_OMEGA flag for PrimParam functions
[09:09] Kelly Linden: doing good.
[09:10] Flip Idlemind: Its also supposed to say "Kelly Linden has arrived!" But it sends that command to be tool with llRegionSayTo()...and Im sitting... <.<
[09:10] Haravikk Mistral: Mind if I just get stuck in? I was wondering when we'll likely see JIRA triages again? As usual have plenty of issues to add! Might be nice if a new page could be set up soonish so we can start adding stuff?
[09:10] Kelly Linden: Kitteh, yeah. I have that in a future maintenance branch.
[09:11] Kelly Linden: Since I lost my official status I've been really slack on these meetings and taking the easy route.
[09:12] Haravikk Mistral: What do you mean by lost official status? You're no longer lord and master of all things scripting?
[09:12] Kitteh Scientist: he is, but not officially trained to be a spokesperson for LL
[09:12] Kelly Linden: I am, at least from a tech-lead position. But I'm not a spokesperson and these meetings are kinda off-radar.
[09:12] Kelly Linden: "trained" heheheh
[09:12] Kelly Linden: anyway!
[09:13] Haravikk Mistral: Ah, well an agenda could still help for JIRA issues since they make up a big chunk of the meetings?
[09:13] Haravikk Mistral: One specific one I'd like to raise though is SVC-6868, dead simple issue, but I can't transfer it to SCR myself
[09:13] flexi campfire: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-6868
[#SVC-6868] llPreloadAsset() - function allowing any type of asset to be preloaded.
[09:13] Kelly Linden: Yeah, that is probably a good idea. I'd like to work from jira exclusively (which is why I made the SCR project) but I havn't worked out the details on how to do that exactly.
[09:13] Haravikk Mistral: Probably quite easy to implement as it's really just removing the restriction on llPreloadSound()
[09:15] Kelly Linden: I haven't looked at the code recently enough to say for certain. It may not be too difficult but I'd suspect the system is set up specifically for sounds.
[09:15] Kelly Linden: in some really obscure ways.
[09:15] Haravikk Mistral: Yeah, hopefully just a case of directing to more appropriate download code? I think the more complex case may be how the viewer keeps things in cache, as it might not recognise preloaded textures as being attached to an object for example
[09:15] Kelly Linden: Did you mean for llPreloadAnimation (at the end) to be another llPreloadAsset ?
[09:16] Haravikk Mistral: Ah, no, llPreloadAnimation() is a bit different, as it essentially adds an animation to an avatar's animation state, but doesn't play it in the viewer
[09:16] Kelly Linden: Oh, I see the linked jira.
[09:17] Haravikk Mistral: I'd love that one too but I see it being a bit more complex =)
[09:17] Haravikk Mistral: I was just noting how they're not mutually exclusive
[09:17] Haravikk Mistral: Since llPreloadAnimation() would need to know the avatar before it can start preloading, while llPreloadAsset() is prim-based
[09:18] Kelly Linden: I see. All right, I put it in the scripting backlog which is essentially the scripting acknowledged issues.
[09:18] Haravikk Mistral: Thanks!
[09:19] Kelly Linden: Before we go into more jira triage I wanted to ask if anyone had a chance to try the 'Snack' RC sandboxes with the new mono 2 upgrade code and if there was any feedback
[09:19] Kitteh Scientist: oh, they are up! awesome
[09:19] Haravikk Mistral: Is that a different release channel or still under LeTigre?
[09:19] Kelly Linden: It is a micro-RC channel. There are only the 4 sandboxes up.
[09:20] Qie Niangao: (unfortunately, I haven't been there yet. sorry... I keep meaning to go. It's important, I know.)
[09:20] Moy Loon: What's the main differences in snack?
[09:20] Kelly Linden: But barring any news I find out today it will probably go up to RC this week (unless it is more crowded than I thought in which case it may be next week)
[09:20] Dora Gustafson: on the main grid?
[09:20] Moy Loon: Oskar told me to check it out, I messed around in it, and I couldn't find anything noticable!
[09:20] Kelly Linden: Yes, on the main grid there are 4 Snack sandboxes
[09:20] Haravikk Mistral: Ah, in that case no, I just have whichever version made it into LeTigre sims, but my home sim (LeTigre) is still waiting for support to get round to fixing its compile problems
[09:21] Kelly Linden: compile problems?
[09:21] Moy Loon: Other than the sim thinks llCastRay exists (And spews out mono errors if you try to use it)
[09:21] Kitteh Scientist: i will do testing there soon when LL unban my main account
[09:21] Haravikk Mistral: Compilation is still really slow, if you remember I IMed you about it thinking it was a new problem, but it was actually happening before the update went through
[09:21] Kelly Linden: yeah we had to stuff some placeholders in there because of how our beta and RC grids are working these days
[09:21] Moy Loon: Ah
[09:22] Flip Idlemind: Kelly do you know if your "maint-server" with the all-important (in my opinion) fix for SCR-66 will get promoted this week? (I hope)
[09:22] flexi campfire: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SCR-66
[#SCR-66] llRegionSayTo() Fails to send messages to attachments on sitting avatars
[09:22] Kelly Linden: I do not know what is getting promoted this week.
[09:22] Kelly Linden: I expect it will be announced soon.
[09:22] Flip Idlemind: Okie dokie
[09:23] Kelly Linden: Well, it is last minute but if anyone has time today to jump over to the Snack Sandbox (1-4) regions and tell me if it breaks anything I'd appreciate it.
[09:23] Kelly Linden: I'd rather find out today or tomorrow and pull the plug on an RC than have to roll back another RC.
[09:24] Flip Idlemind: Right, ok I'll hammer it as much as I can
[09:24] Kelly Linden: I'm gonna fall out of favor with the release team if I keep that pattern up. :p
[09:24] Kitteh Scientist: me and Kal will go ther today and do some testings
[09:24] Qie Niangao: need to find somebody with the all-important breedable critters to rez out there
[09:24] Draconis Neurocam: i think they die if you re rez them and thats the issue
[09:24] Draconis Neurocam: as to why they are so sensitive
[09:25] Moy Loon: No, it was the multiple state_entry things
[09:25] Haravikk Mistral: What's the deadline on testing in the snack RC then Kelly? I probably can't test today but I have few choices scripts that might be worth subjecting your poor sandboxes too ^^
[09:25] Kelly Linden: The horses themselves are chock full of DRM (I suspect the food too).
[09:25] Qie Niangao: oh joy
[09:26] Kelly Linden: If we hear anything drastic before we roll Wed morning we can pull the plug. But if we get the news too late tomorrow we may not be able to verify or investigate in time.
[09:26] Haravikk Mistral: k, I'm a good five or six hours ahead of you guys so I'll try and get on early for some tinkering!
[09:27] Kelly Linden: worst case we roll, there is a bug and we have to roll back. Just like before. It generally isn't the end of the world and is what our process is designed to handle.
[09:28] Qie Niangao: thing is, it's really good to have these releases for testing on the main grid... except: we need to actually test on them
[09:28] Kelly Linden: Also last week the Snack 3/4 regions were getting hit with our 'timewarp' bug which isn't related to the mono upgrade and which we believe is OS related (and are testing fixes in that vein) so if you are on a 3/4 and sim peformance drops to a couple frames a minute jump over to the 1/2 regions.
[09:29] Kelly Linden: I might see if I can get the 3/4 sandboxes onto our experimental fix if they are still seeing the problem today.
[09:30] Kelly Linden: I think that is all the 'news' I have today. So we can jump to questions and adhoc jira triage.
[09:30] Qie Niangao: (maybe everybody already is, but I think one has to be a member of Second Life Beta -- open enrollment -- to access those Snack sims. or did at one time anyway.)
[09:30] Moy Loon: What's the status on the mesh-prep branch? ;)
[09:30] Kelly Linden: Yes that is true Qie.
[09:30] Kelly Linden: I have no idea Moy.
[09:30] Kelly Linden: It isn't in RC yet, obviously.
[09:31] Moy Loon: :(
[09:31] Flip Idlemind: What are some symptoms of the "timewarp" bug? Do they include region-turning-red syndrome?
[09:31] Kelly Linden: Flip maybe. The entire host seems to 'freeze' for *very* long times (15 - 100 seconds)
[09:31] Kelly Linden: all logging stops (including everything that logs to syslog)
[09:32] Haravikk Mistral: Well, since it was mentioned I suppose I should ask if you could import SVC-6866 (llPreloadAnimation) into scripting as well. I suspect it's actually mostly a viewer-side project when it comes down to it, as it should be implementable as priority 0 (or a negative value maybe?) with code on the viewer to handle it
[09:32] flexi campfire: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-6866
[#SVC-6866] llPreloadAnimation() - a function for preloading animations ready to be played on-demand without delay
[09:32] Kelly Linden: There are maybe 2 ways it happens, either the system really freezes or the clock gets adjusted and skips.
[09:33] Flip Idlemind: Sounds like a fun project for whoever gets to debug that
[09:33] Kelly Linden: I moved it to the scripting project, I need to read it more before I acknowledge.
[09:34] Haravikk Mistral: k, the concept is more straightforward I think than my huge description probably makes it look =)
[09:35] Flip Idlemind: Plays an animation without actually playing it, right?
[09:35] Haravikk Mistral: Essentially it's an llStartAnimation() call that doesn't actually play on the viewer side
[09:35] Kelly Linden: Why can't llPreloadAsset handle this case again?
[09:36] Haravikk Mistral: llPreloadAsset() is a bit restricted as it can only preload one thing, so you'd have to use multiple prims to preload a scene for one avatar. If a second avatar's anims are different then it gets very clumsy
[09:37] Qie Niangao: why must llPreloadAsset() be restricted to only one thing?
[09:38] Haravikk Mistral: llPreloadSound() works that way, llPreloadAsset() would basically be replacing that, since the data is stored in a prim it's restricted to one GUID
[09:38] Kelly Linden: I see.
[09:39] Flip Idlemind: Oh so thats why preloading sounds in a prim other than the one playing the sound doesn't work so well
[09:39] Haravikk Mistral: llPreloadAnimation() is more aimed to take advantage of the way animations work so you can preload several ready to play in succession if need be. You can actually do this currently with clever use of priority or masses of code
[09:40] Haravikk Mistral: but it is hugely wasteful and very vulnerable to script lag, so a proper feature would be a lot better
[09:40] Qie Niangao: except that sounds often are played in a sequence, too... so would be nice if they could preload, within some limit of caching
[09:40] Kelly Linden: All right.
[09:40] Kelly Linden: Any others?
[09:40] Jonathan Yap: Kelly, could SVC-2406 be moved into your script project?
[09:40] flexi campfire: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2406
[#SVC-2406] LSL: Add "prefilled" string to llTextBox
[09:41] Flip Idlemind: How about we just make an llPutThisAssetInEveryonesCacheNoMatterWhereThisFunctionIsCalledFrom() ...Presumable with a shorter name ?.(?)
[09:42] Kaluura Boa thinks that could be used by grieffers to freeze clients... and e ventually sims...
[09:42] Kaluura Boa: -f
[09:42] Kelly Linden: I'm not up on the comments on that one Jonathan. For starters we can't change the signature of an existing lsl function
[09:42] Jonathan Yap: It would require a new function, with 1 additional parameter
[09:43] Kelly Linden: it would have to be llTextBoxWithDefault or something
[09:43] Jonathan Yap: So, not much coding really
[09:43] Kelly Linden: And I haven't looked at the message the server sends to the viewer for textboxes to know how feasible it is to extend it.
[09:43] Haravikk Mistral: It's kind of annoying that this never got addressed sooner as llTextBox() just sort of sat in limbo for ages
[09:44] Kaluura Boa: Talking about extra parameter... Anything new on the SCR-15 front?
[09:44] flexi campfire: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SCR-15
[#SCR-15] Add flag parameter [vector slice] to llSetPrimitiveParams PRIM_TYPE flags PRIM_TYPE_BOX, PRIM_TYPE_CYLINDER, and PRIM_TYPE_PRISM
[09:44] Jonathan Yap: Good point; a message packet might need to be extended. I (or someone else) would probably do the viewer side change
[09:44] Haravikk Mistral: The message is actually just the same as a regular llDialog() with a special button value
[09:44] Haravikk Mistral: "!-TEXTBOX-!" if I remember right, anything after that could simply be interpreted as a default value?
[09:44] Jonathan Yap: I was just wondering if that jira qualifies to be in your new project category
[09:45] Kelly Linden: Yup, moved it over.
[09:45] Jonathan Yap: Sweet, now there is more hope of it getting some love. :)
[09:46] Kelly Linden: Well. I dunno about that.
[09:46] Kelly Linden: The scripting project is not a priority right now.
[09:46] Jonathan Yap: awww, you could do it on a Saturday with 1 hand tied behind your back.
[09:46] Jonathan Yap: Anyhow, thanks for putting it where it might be spotted some day.
[09:46] Kelly Linden: I don't code on saturdays.
[09:46] Kelly Linden: :p
[09:47] Qie Niangao: that's how I spend my weekends. the hand tied behind back part, I mean. :p
[09:47] Kelly Linden: haha
[09:47] Jonathan Yap: I bet Kelly's hand is busy holding a baby.
[09:48] Kelly Linden: Or chasing a 2 year old.
[09:48] Kelly Linden: So, any other questions or jiras?
[09:48] Kaluura Boa: SCR-15 for example
[09:48] Dora Gustafson: hear
[09:48] Kelly Linden: ug.
[09:48] Kelly Linden: I hate that one
[09:49] Kaluura Boa: =^_^=
[09:49] Kelly Linden: sure you don't want to talk about something else?
[09:49] Kaluura Boa: Nope!
[09:49] Kitteh Scientist: what about if we make a jira about setting PRIM_TYPE disables the slice instead of ignoring it?
[09:49] Kaluura Boa: I don't even remember when slice was introduced in SL...
[09:49] Kaluura Boa: The scripting part needs to catch up.
[09:50] Kelly Linden: This is one of those things where in any reasonable system it would be pretty easy. And it totally really is not.
[09:50] Dora Gustafson: SCR-15 is one year old
[09:51] Flip Idlemind: Confirmed by Kelly: LSL is not a reasonable system
[09:51] Haravikk Mistral: Could PRIM_TYPE not just be fixed to retain slice, and then a PRIM_SLICE command added?
[09:51] Kelly Linden: yes its old, yes it should get done. It is acknowledged. It needs significant dev time to accomplish.
[09:51] Dora Gustafson smiles
[09:52] Kitteh Scientist: and if you dont like to discuss about slice, i can bring SCR-19 to the table again :P
[09:52] flexi campfire: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SCR-19
[#SCR-19] Script function to return objects
[09:52] Kelly Linden: The llSet/GetPrimParams[Fast] system is over enginered and over complex and needs to support its legacy behavior to prevent breaking existing scripts. I *have* looked at this.
[09:52] Haravikk Mistral: Presumably C# won't use this structure at all so an LSL stop-gap should suffice?
[09:52] Haravikk Mistral: I'm hoping C# will make all the params stuff object-oriented, when the fortold day of rebirth is finally upon us
[09:53] Haravikk Mistral: But until then... =P
[09:53] Kelly Linden: I still worry about asset return rate, particularly on any version that takes specific object IDs Kitteh.
[09:53] Draconis Neurocam: what if rather than the function specifically returning things, giving us a way to set the autoreturn timer via script
[09:54] Kelly Linden: Haravikk: the first LSL.Library for C# probably won't change the API much. It will let us make a new version of the library that does though, yes.
[09:54] Flip Idlemind: Confirmed by Kelly: There will be a first LSL.Library for C#
[09:54] Kelly Linden: :D
[09:55] Kelly Linden: This is why I'm not supposed to have meetings Flip.
[09:55] Kaluura Boa: hehehe
[09:55] Kelly Linden: 5 more minutes
[09:55] Draconis Neurocam: oh, my old standby, a way for getobjectdetails to get an agent's group key
[09:55] Draconis Neurocam: i should probably jirafy that
[09:55] Draconis Neurocam: if its not there
[09:55] Kitteh Scientist: i dont need to be able to return specific objects, i mainly need it to return all objects of a griefer, all objects that come from neighbouring parcel over and over again so pointless to try to return them with client. And LL dont have 24hour support anymore, so griefer can grief for 8 hours untill LL react to 200 AR's
[09:56] Kelly Linden: At one point we had privacy concerns because we didn't think that was something viewers could get Draconis.
[09:56] Draconis Neurocam: but you support it for prims now
[09:56] Kelly Linden: We send group IDs for prims to viewers
[09:56] Draconis Neurocam: ah
[09:57] Draconis Neurocam: it just makes scripting group only things overcomplicated, especially if the land group is different than the group being checked
[09:57] Kelly Linden: If you elect not to show a title (or have a very generic title) I don't think other viewers are able to tell what group you have active.
[09:58] Draconis Neurocam: i hear you though, its just sad, as im sure it would be very useful
[09:58] Flip Idlemind: That could be a problem because, like, anyone can make their group tag "Owner" or something
[09:58] Kelly Linden: Yes. It may be something we could change our position on, it is very easy to implement. I'm sure there must be a jira for it.
[09:58] Qie Niangao: it actually might be more useful if scripts could see more about the internals of their own group.... like members, roles, abilities.
[09:59] Draconis Neurocam: that would be a good workaround qie
[09:59] Draconis Neurocam: and flip i dont mean group title, i mean active group uuid
[09:59] Kelly Linden: Hrm, interesting idea Qie. It involves DB access to that makes it tricky and risky, but not impossible.
[09:59] Qie Niangao: actually, also tricky for privacy, now that I think about it...
[10:00] Draconis Neurocam: tacked onto the dataserver
[10:00] Draconis Neurocam: yeah
[10:00] Qie Niangao: or maybe not... I guess every group member gets to see all that? if so, then not so tricky.
[10:00] Opensource Obscure: that would be handy and powerful. the ui for accessing those information in the viewer is not handy
[10:00] Flip Idlemind: Right but if you could get someone's active group uuid, then you'd know if someone with an "Owner" tag actually owned the place you're at, or is just being silly
[10:00] Draconis Neurocam: if it returned a true/false would be more than enough, it wouldnt have to give names or anything
[10:00] Flip Idlemind: (In other words, Im agreeing with you)
[10:01] Draconis Neurocam: is user in group
[10:01] Draconis Neurocam: yes no
[10:01] Draconis Neurocam: it assumes you already know the group key, and the user key, so any abuse would be extremely convoluted
[10:03] Kelly Linden: Make sure it is jirafied and in the SCR project if possible. :)
[10:03] Draconis Neurocam: alright
[10:03] Kelly Linden: Ok, I'm 3 minutes over. Thanks all for coming, sorry I was late.
[10:03] Opensource Obscure: kelly, could this meeting be added into the user group google-calendar please? I keep missing it :\
[10:03] Qie Niangao: Thanks Kelly
[10:03] Draconis Neurocam: thanks a lot kelly, take care
[10:04] Kelly Linden: OO: If it were up to me it would be.
[10:04] Kitteh Scientist: thanks ^^
[10:04] Qie Niangao: what meeting? it's just a weekly accident.
[10:04] Opensource Obscure: oh ok :)
[10:04] Opensource Obscure: thanks kelly
[10:04] Kelly Linden: This is a weekly flashmob for people who like to script.
[10:04] Qie Niangao: :)
[10:04] Opensource Obscure: i will script a reminder
[10:04] Opensource Obscure: :)