Mesh/Archive/2013-01-14

==Agenda==
# Would it be possible to get someone working on Experience Permissions to give us an update on the project? Nalates Urriah 15:43, 9 January 2013 (PST)
# Every so often someone has to ask about the avatar Draw Weight coloring. Is there anyone looking at making the coloring from green to red a bit more realistic? Nalates Urriah 12:49, 10 January 2013 (PST)
# Why is the mesh deformer still not being implented? The current version does what it is suppose to do.
# Yesterday, I read that a project viewer for the materials project would be released soon. Has it been released or are they still working on it? Ashasekayi Ra 12:02, 14 January 2013 (PST)
# Are there any published statistics on how many SL users use deferred rendering options? I read that it will have to be turned on for people to see the new normal/specular maps once the material project is released. Ashasekayi Ra 12:04, 14 January 2013 (PST)
# Are custom offsets for Mesh being worked on or planned? If it gets added then it would also be nice to have support for physics shapes and LOD models with a different dimension than the base model. Lares Carter 12:35, 14 January 2013 (PST)
==Meeting Notes==
==Attendees List==
*Aki Shichiroji (aki.shichiroji)
*Asha (ashasekayi.ra)
*dahlia1337 resident (dahlia.trimble)
*Exotix (inara.pey)
*JIRA-helper (jira-helper)
*Lares Carter (lares.carter)
*Latif Khalifa (latif.khalifa)
*Livre DeCuir (livre.decuir)
*Nal (nalates.urriah)
*Nyx Linden (nyx.linden)
*Prep Linden (prep.linden)
*Second Life (second.life)
*Siana Gearz (siana.gearz)
*Squirrely Wrath (squirrel.wood)
*Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)
*Bazz Fazz (vir.linden)
*Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)
==Transcript for Monday January 14, 2013==
[11:59]	Nyx Linden 	greetings all
[11:59]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Hello, Nyx.
[11:59]	Exotix (inara.pey) 	Nyz: Tiny by Display Name, big in leaps ‚òª
[12:00]	Exotix (inara.pey) 	Nyx*
[12:00]	Aki Shichiroji 	Hi All :)
[12:00]	Exotix (inara.pey) 	Hey, Aki!
[12:01]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Hello, Nalates.
[12:01]	Nyx Linden 	agenda is here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group please add your topics!
[12:01]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Hello, Asha.
[12:02]	Livre DeCuir 	hello
[12:03]	Nyx Linden 	shall we get started?
[12:03]	Nyx Linden 	first topic: "Would it be possible to get someone working on Experience Permissions to give us an update on the project? Nalates Urriah 15:43, 9 January 2013 (PST)"
[12:04]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	:)
[12:04]	Nyx Linden 	we rarely get guest lindens to join us, but I can ask the relevant people if there is an update that can be shared here
[12:05]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	That would be nice. Thx
[12:05]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Heya Yuzuru, Aki and all :)
[12:05]	Nyx Linden 	I'll ask around
[12:05]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: Every so often someone has to ask about the avatar Draw Weight coloring. Is there anyone looking at making the coloring from green to red a bit more realistic? Nalates Urriah 12:49, 10 January 2013 (PST)
[12:05]	Exotix (inara.pey) 	/me waves to Asha
[12:06]	Nyx Linden 	not currently, the scale definitely is pretty interesting when you look at real world avatars. What would you consider realistic? :)
[12:06]	Aki Shichiroji 	Hi Asha :)
[12:07]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	I would consider green good to about 100k...
[12:08]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	With system clothes and this hair I am in the yellow. Add these shoes and I'm 65k and red.
[12:09]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Kadmon is 41k and red...
[12:09]	Nyx Linden 	I could see changing the scale a bit, but 100k seems a bit generous. Also, do take a look at your shoes in wireframe, they are definitely not efficient :)
[12:09]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Lares is 23k and yellow...
[12:09]	Lares Carter 	Must be my hair.
[12:10]	Aki Shichiroji 	oog. thoes toes and toenails...
[12:10]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	The shoes are high sculpty count. So, I can see that.
[12:11]	Nyx Linden 	the short answer to your question is that there isn't someone currently working on that piece of code
[12:12]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	I think as it is now, the scale is generally ignored. I hope that upping the red levvel the scale might get more respect and be useful.
[12:12]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	I suppose we c ould file a feature request for an improvement.
[12:12]	Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	whats the current topic?
[12:13]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Per formance Tools Draw Weight... when it goes red.
[12:13]	Nyx Linden 	"Every so often someone has to ask about the avatar Draw Weight coloring. Is there anyone looking at making the coloring from green to red a bit more realistic? Nalates Urriah 12:49, 10 January 2013 (PST)"
[12:13]	Siana Gearz 	hellooooes.
[12:14]	Nyx Linden 	noted that you're interested in changing the color scaling, please do file a feature request if you get a chance
[12:15]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	ok Thx
[12:15]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "Why is the mesh deformer still not being implented? The current version does what it is suppose to do."
[12:16]	Nyx Linden 	Oz is in charge of managing and giving feedback for code contributions, including larger efforts like the deformer, he's better suited to answer that
[12:16]	Latif Khalifa 	you'll only be waitinf for it just over a year. patches take 2-3 years, so you need to wait some more :P
[12:17]	Aki Shichiroji 	/me is reminded of mesh beta :}
[12:17]	Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	I didn't think it was finished yet
[12:17]	Siana Gearz 	ah Nyx, this page grew full of dead links: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mesh/Sample_Content
[12:18]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "Yesterday, I read that a project viewer for the materials project would be released soon. Has it been released or are they still working on it? Ashasekayi Ra 12:02, 14 January 2013 (PST)"
[12:18]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	/me chuckles at Aki
[12:18]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	http://blog.nalates.net/2013/01/12/mesh-deformer-update-2013-2/
[12:18]	Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	still working on it
[12:19]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Ah ok. Thanks. I just wanted to make sure I didn't overlook it.
[12:19]	Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	last I heard, its still a ew weeks away from the code being released
[12:19]	Nyx Linden 	materials is still being worked on. It will be released when it is ready and we believe that its not going to be harmful. I don't personally know the timing of that one.
[12:20]	Siana Gearz 	well, the repo got published by accident, but it is missing the vital stuff :D
[12:20]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Yes, I read that bit in Inara's blog. :D
[12:20]	Latif Khalifa 	Oz is known for those sort of things, like putting his bitbucket password in commit messages ;)
[12:21]	Siana Gearz 	:D
[12:21]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	heh
[12:21]	Aki Shichiroji 	Glimpses behind the curtain?
[12:21]	Exotix (inara.pey) 	Ooopsie, Ozzie...
[12:22]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "Are there any published statistics on how many SL users use deferred rendering options? I read that it will have to be turned on for people to see the new normal/specular maps once the material project is released. Ashasekayi Ra 12:04, 14 January 2013 (PST)"
[12:22]	Nyx Linden 	yep, that's a common request! I've been asking about it internally, and we need to see how easy that type of statistic is to gather from our data. There is not currently a widely published number or estimate yet.
[12:23]	Siana Gearz 	they'll be forcing deferred rendering for a range of setting levels, so you can count on that number rising. but people not knowing anything about settings and seeing their performance drop and some VRAM eaten away might be unhappy.
[12:24]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Yes, I think you have to have deferred turned on for the deformer to work as well.
[12:24]	Siana Gearz 	that can't be the case Asha, no.
[12:24]	Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	really?
[12:24]	Aki Shichiroji 	i'm running the deformer now, with basic shaders only.
[12:24]	Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	yeah, I woudlnt think differed would be needed for the diformer
[12:24]	Aki Shichiroji 	it works fine.
[12:25]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Hmm.... I know that I could not see the deformer work with deferred turned off. *shrugs*
[12:25]	Squirrely Wrath (squirrel.wood) 	gtx-480 likes to get noisy with deferred/shadows and all shinies turned on. gtx-680 does it without breaking a sweat
[12:25]	Latif Khalifa 	It's going to be required for the materials, perhaps you got those two mixed up?
[12:25]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	At some point the 1716 JIRA that was brought up. I think the Def Render thing was an early bug.
[12:25]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Ah ok Nal. That could be then.
[12:26]	Latif Khalifa 	LL doesn't plan to make metarials work in non-deferred renderer, so that's going to be fun
[12:26]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	That happened early on when I tested it. So, I always kept it on afterwards. Good to know it was a bug then.
[12:26]	Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	I think geenze said it wouls impossible to do it in non differed
[12:27]	Squirrely Wrath (squirrel.wood) 	just make sure that when you unleash all the new stuff the client does not forget to render half the attached prims and meshes :p
[12:27]	Siana Gearz 	if materials were to be implemented in forward renderer, that would drop the performance like a rock anyway.
[12:27]	Siana Gearz 	Squirrel, hey, you don't expect years old issues to just disappear, do you x.x
[12:27]	Squirrely Wrath (squirrel.wood) 	I do.
[12:28]	Nyx Linden 	materials does require the deferred pipeline, I don't believe that the deformer does.
[12:28]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Def render started moving into video cards in 2004, if I remember corectly. So, it has to be an old computer that can't handle it.
[12:28]	Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	just because it can run it doesn't mean it can run it well
[12:28]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	true
[12:29]	Siana Gearz 	Nal, SL's deferred renderer has monsterous per-pixel complexity and somewhat higher bandwidth requirement than typical deferred renderers in games.
[12:30]	Latif Khalifa 	the preferences are also somewhat confusing where people have the impression that you need to have shadows enabled to run deferred.
[12:30]	Siana Gearz 	so it's limited to unified shader cards (Geforce8, ATI HD2+), in case of early ones to very high end ones, now to lower midrange (still not low-end)
[12:30]	Latif Khalifa 	and shadows will effecitvely half your FPS
[12:30]	Nyx Linden 	that's all the topics for this week, anyone else have a topic?
[12:30]	Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	agreed, latif
[12:30]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Thx Siana
[12:31]	Aki Shichiroji 	is there any way we can work the coloured hulls back in to the previewer?
[12:36]	Second Life 	Teleport completed from http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/LindenWorld%20B/153/77/47
[12:36]	Squirrely Wrath (squirrel.wood) 	the current one atm.
[12:36]	Prep Linden 	one new item added to the agenda:
[12:36]	Prep Linden 	Are custom offsets for Mesh being worked on or planned? If it gets added then it would also be nice to have support for physics shapes and LOD models with a different dimension than the base model. Lares Carter 12:35, 14 January 2013 (PST)
[12:37]	Squirrely Wrath (squirrel.wood) 	current would be 2.65 methinks
[12:38]	Aki Shichiroji 	Squirrelly: ah, not the problem i'm thinking of then.
[12:38]	dahlia1337 resident (dahlia.trimble) 	custom offsets?
[12:38]	Prep Linden 	I assume this is the "add pivot point" question. We are not currently working on it.
[12:38]	Lares Carter 	Like the hinge for a door.
[12:38]	Siana Gearz 	oh btw i need meshies for meshupload test, and the page with sample DAEs is broken as i mentioned.
[12:39]	Latif Khalifa 	Somone at LL was deleting s3 stuff at random again it seems
[12:42]	Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	are you still working on an update for sunshine, nyx?
[12:43]	Nyx Linden 	yeah, been a bit heads-down focusing on some bug-stomping
[12:43]	Nyx Linden 	will look at pushing an update once we're able to pull the latest viewer-development and verify things aren't broken
[12:43]	Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	im still working on merging it
[12:43]	Squirrely Wrath (squirrel.wood) 	You need to stomp harder :p
[12:44]	Nyx Linden 	/me gets out his stomping boots
[12:44]	Squirrely Wrath (squirrel.wood) 	(or get bigger boots...) :)
[12:44]	Latif Khalifa 	last code drop is from a moth ago, not exactly conductive to the state goal of having everybody adopt the latest code fast
[12:44]	dahlia1337 resident (dahlia.trimble) 	or stomp faster
[12:44]	Siana Gearz 	or stomp with more industrial robots.
[12:45]	Nyx Linden 	while we're on the subject, Latif, are you still unable to reproduce SUN-2? I think our fixes should have taken care of that one
[12:45]	JIRA-helper 	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SUN-2
[12:45]	dahlia1337 resident (dahlia.trimble) 	I thought Nyx was a household robot :/
[12:45]	Latif Khalifa 	Nyx, I have not tested again since my last comment
[12:45]	Latif Khalifa 	I will be re-testing with Singularity merge of the code soon
[12:46]	Nyx Linden 	much appreciated, I'm unable to reproduce with the current repro
[12:46]	Latif Khalifa 	it's a bit painful to test with COF mismatch on 75% of outfit changes
[12:47]	Nyx Linden 	that's one we're actively working on, it seems to be specific to a handful of accounts getting into a bad state
[12:47]	Latif Khalifa 	also, duplicating all jira reports and making them hidden is not really conductive to co-operative work on testing stuff
[12:48]	Nyx Linden 	noted. I don't make our jira policies but I can pass on the feedback. I'll do my best to keep the SUN- issues up to date
[12:48]	dahlia1337 resident (dahlia.trimble) 	being a conductor can be painful...
[12:50]	Latif Khalifa 	i know you don't want to reveal you patented and trademarked bug fixing techinques, but it's counter productive if you want people to help iron out the issues ;)
[12:51]	Siana Gearz 	oh i just end up spam-e-mailing a random Linden directly these days with bug fixes.
[12:52]	Siana Gearz 	i'm sure they're VERY much happier than back when JIRA was useful for everybody.
[12:52]	Latif Khalifa 	yeah jira is pretty much useless in that regard tehse days
[12:52]	Nyx Linden 	heh, we should be able to collaborate on SUN- issues, I'll do what I can to make sure that the cloned issues are kept up to date.
[12:52]	Siana Gearz 	.oO(no matter that i have extended access)
[12:52]	Nyx Linden 	any other topics for today?
[12:54]	Squirrely Wrath (squirrel.wood) 	Nyx, can you tell me why SL hates .dae exports from meshlab ?
[12:54]	Aki Shichiroji 	filed bug on that hull issue. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-1342 ; hopefully it's not a duplicate.
[12:54]	Prep Linden 	thanks aki.
[12:54]	Nyx Linden 	squirrel: not without an example dae file :)
[12:54]	Squirrely Wrath (squirrel.wood) 	I'll see if I can get you one then...
[12:54]	Aki Shichiroji 	np :)
[12:55]	Squirrely Wrath (squirrel.wood) 	and one from blender to compare
[12:56]	Nyx Linden 	much appreciated!
[12:56]	Prep Linden 	k, i'll see you folks later.
[12:57]	Phoenix-Firestorm Viewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	tc
[12:57]	Aki Shichiroji 	Thanks for the meeting
[12:57]	Aki Shichiroji 	Take care :)
[12:57]	Bazz Fazz (vir.linden) 	bye all
[12:57]	Siana Gearz 	new topic: nyan cats.
[12:57]	Nyx Linden 	have a great week all
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