Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2011.07.26

Simulator_User_Group
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== List of Speakers ==
Adamburp Adamczyk 	Andrew Linden 	Ardy Lay
Ashiri Sands 	DesolateStudios	exNeko Andel
Fancy Greeter 	Flip Idlemind 	Imaze Rhiano
Kadah Coba 	Kaluura Boa 	Kelly Linden
Kirsten Kiergarten	Leonel Iceghost	Liisa Runo
Mercille Linden 	Naomi Sands 	Pauline Darkfury
Qie Niangao 	Rex Cronon 	Simon Linden
Techwolf Lupindo 	Vincent Nacon 	
== Transcript ==
[12:01] Simon Linden: sorry, that thing has a completely undecipherable menu, I'll have to see if I can find some instructions
[12:01] Naomi Sands: Hello Andrew
[12:01] Kaluura Boa: Hi...
[12:01] Liisa Runo: Hi everybody, Lindens, Residentst, Ruths and the one person with copybotted hair.
[12:01] Andrew Linden: hello
[12:01] Simon Linden: Naomi - we typically start this user group with news, then open it up for discussion topics
[12:02] Kaluura Boa: =^_^=
[12:02] Naomi Sands: Ok .Thanks you:)
[12:02] Simon Linden: So we should be able to discuss that issue in a few minutes
[12:02] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
[12:02] exNeko Andel: Ey
[12:03] Andrew Linden: ok so news...
[12:03] Vincent Nacon: you got news? exciting
[12:03] Andrew Linden: the only news I've got is about what I'm working on at the moment...
[12:04] Simon Linden: ok, the magic couch should be fixed
[12:04] Andrew Linden: the mesh server has some new "parcel prim resource cost" changes that make it fraught with danger... you can accidentally scale a mesh object too big and suddenly go way over your parcel limit
[12:04] Vincent Nacon: sounds like bad news
[12:04] Andrew Linden: and objects will be returned... other people's objects first, then group owned (affiliated?) objects, then your own
[12:04] Kaluura Boa: =^_^= Silly!
[12:05] Andrew Linden: yeah, so I'm working on some protections that will detect when you try to set the scale such that it would return stuff, and have the scale fail
[12:05] Vincent Nacon: shouldn't it be other way around?
[12:05] Kadah Coba isnt impressed with the mesh PE system so far :<
[12:05] Andrew Linden: also to have objects return in a slightly different way...
[12:05] Rex Cronon: u can hear all the landlords and their tenants jumping with joy:)
[12:06] Andrew Linden: such as having the offending object return first (even if you own it and some other people own things on your parcel)
[12:06] Liisa Runo: scaling is not the only thing that can make the prim count go up, what about those things? (adding a script, texturing, linking)
[12:06] Vincent Nacon: why Rex? all I could see is intentional griefing
[12:06] Andrew Linden: that is... if your object was the reason the parcel suddenly went over the limit.
[12:06] Rex Cronon: i was a little sarcastic
[12:06] Vincent Nacon: oh ok sorry
[12:06] Rex Cronon: np:)
[12:06] Fancy Greeter: Mercille Linden has arrived!
[12:07] Fancy Greeter: Kelly Linden has arrived!
[12:07] Vincent Nacon: 6 minutes late but I'll let you pass
[12:08] Andrew Linden: I lack some sophistication of understanding to properly interpret your sarcasm Rex. Perhaps you could explain it to me. (Pretent I have no sense of humor ;-) or am otherwise totally naive.
[12:08] Rex Cronon: sometimes when i try to tp here, i get disconnected and it takes a few minutes to get back
[12:08] Mercille Linden: do I get special dispensation for being late if I was checking in code?
[12:08] Pauline Darkfury: Hi folks :)
[12:09] Vincent Nacon: no because I already let you pass
[12:09] Ardy Lay: Depends on how much we like the code.
[12:09] Naomi Sands: Hi :)
[12:09] Rex Cronon: imagine that u r a landlord and one of your renters suddenly rezes something that returns the objects of others
[12:09] Pauline Darkfury: only if it was really cool code, Mercille ;)
[12:09] Simon Linden: It's a tough crowd
[12:09] Rex Cronon: or u as the landlord rez something that suddenly returns the objecs of those that rent from u
[12:09] Ardy Lay: Hehe
[12:09] Pauline Darkfury shudders at the slightest hint of that, Rex
[12:09] Rex Cronon: hi
[12:09] Qie Niangao: Or call llRemoteLoadScriptPin() on a mesh-linked object to double its PE in one fell swoop.
[12:10] Andrew Linden: right Rex, so what would the ideal behavior be? (Hint: we might be trying to do just that)
[12:10] Naomi Sands: yuk
[12:10] Pauline Darkfury: that's my single biggest concern with mesh, that my tenants do something utterly disasterous with it
[12:10] Vincent Nacon: should somehow return by date, oldest prim returned last
[12:10] Vincent Nacon: but only acceptable by the same parcel owner
[12:10] Ashiri Sands: and return the skybox floor first?
[12:10] Rex Cronon: as u said already andrew. u try to return only the offendig object
[12:10] Ardy Lay: Last in first out?
[12:10] Pauline Darkfury: anything that causes mesh to massively grow should only impact that individual object, _no other object, ever!_
[12:10] Kadah Coba: Fail the resize
[12:10] Kaluura Boa: Seriously, it would be better than anything which changes the number of prims just fails...
[12:10] Vincent Nacon: that too, Kal
[12:10] Andrew Linden: maybe it should be last-in first out, and do not care about the owner?
[12:11] Ardy Lay: I would prefer to fail the operation
[12:11] Pauline Darkfury: nope, LIFO doesn't work, if a tenant causes something rezzed 2 months ago to go super-bloat
[12:11] Kadah Coba: Return other is going to be a non-obvious solution.
[12:11] Mercille Linden: you should only return to those trying to rez the offending object, yes?
[12:11] Andrew Linden: Yeah well... we are trying harder to fail the operation first.
[12:11] Pauline Darkfury: if anything is returned, it _MUST_ be just the single mesh object that caused the problem
[12:11] Rex Cronon: or u can not rez it at all, but u will still have to test if is ok to rez it
[12:11] Ardy Lay: We already have people jamming trash into parcels to make group owned building get returned.
[12:12] Pauline Darkfury: anything less than that is a showstopper
[12:12] Liisa Runo: optional would be that only the polygon count and physics shape affect the prim count of mesh. not scale, not scripts, not textures, and not other items linked to it
[12:12] Andrew Linden: I've added pre-checks for some of the operations, but not all
[12:12] Kadah Coba: Either return the offending or prevent it from resizing to becomming offending
[12:12] Andrew Linden: and there may be holes by which an operation can happen but exceed the parcel limit... those would be bugs ideally
[12:12] Pauline Darkfury: yes, ideally just fail it rather than returning anything, but it must not ever trigger any form of mass return
[12:13] Andrew Linden: and then there is the "abandon this parcel despite the fact that it will put my other parcel over its limit" problem.
[12:13] Kadah Coba: Returning other would be confusing and non-obvious. eg. rez a car, your house returns.
[12:13] Andrew Linden: Ideally that abandon should warn first before succeeding.
[12:13] Vincent Nacon: or if it help, instead of failing, tell viewer to stop at limited scale it can allow
[12:13] Vincent Nacon: snap to limited scale for parcel that is
[12:13] Pauline Darkfury: existing mass return behaviour is easy for a landowner to avoid, if they understand the system. Mesh sudden bloat is not something the landowner can actually control
[12:14] Rex Cronon: or u could make it temp, and if is over the parcel limit than u return it:)
[12:15] Andrew Linden: Ok. We're working on pre-checking operations to reduce the confusion. I won't comment further about that until we have some of the code deployed.
[12:15] Andrew Linden: Un checked operations that allow a parcel to go over would be bugs
[12:15] Rex Cronon: just keep in mind that it can be very dangerous
[12:15] Andrew Linden: that would have to get fixed eventually.
[12:15] Pauline Darkfury: Please, please, PLEASE, make this a blocker before mesh is enabled, even on a RC
[12:15] Pauline Darkfury: It's an absolute showstopper issue for me as a mainland landlady
[12:15] Andrew Linden: And we'll have to add better feedback channels for when the operations fail.
[12:16] Kadah Coba: Make a "Resize failed: [REASON]" message.
[12:16] Andrew Linden: Ok Pauline, I'll relay your blocker request to Charlar who is involved in the final call on that.
[12:16] Ardy Lay: I get messages such as this in ORANGE: "Second Life: You cannot create plants on this land." Those are quite noticeable.
[12:17] Pauline Darkfury: If it's not addressed, I'll have to get several regions withdrawn from RC, and ban the use of mesh by my tenants :(
[12:17] Pauline Darkfury: I really don't want to do either of those things
[12:17] Kirsten Kiergarten: agreed Pauline
[12:17] Qie Niangao: Remember, it's not just rescaling. Adding a script, or flipping to physical double the PE, so those operations have to fail, too. (Can't really test in current Mesh sandbox, so maybe they do already.)
[12:17] Andrew Linden: So... trees and gras are "special" objects.
[12:18] Andrew Linden: You can't create trees or grass unless you have "terraform" permissions on the parcel.
[12:18] Andrew Linden: Perhaps that should be changed?
[12:18] Pauline Darkfury: it's a group perm separate from terraform, unless that ability is broken
[12:18] Rex Cronon: i am sorry but adding scripts to a mesh should not increase its prim count:(
[12:19] Andrew Linden: That special classification for trees and grass was made a looooong time ago... way back in 2002 or 2003.
[12:19] Pauline Darkfury: I entirely agree with you on that, Rex
[12:19] Kaluura Boa: I totally agree!
[12:19] Kadah Coba: Ditto.
[12:19] Kadah Coba: Either all objects have script costs or its non-effective.
[12:20] Pauline Darkfury: world-breaking to add script costs to existing stuff, Kadah
[12:20] Ardy Lay: Andrew, I wasn't trying to change the topic. Was just saying that message type is an example of a system message telling me I can't do that and the message works well for me as it is quite noticeable.
[12:20] Kaluura Boa: It looks like everything is done to prevent the use of meshes...
[12:20] DesolateStudios: I am of the opinion that script costs ought to be a seperate cost, instead of being lumped together with mesh.
[12:20] Andrew Linden: Ok thanks Ardy.
[12:20] Ardy Lay: I was thinking such a message about resize results exceeding a limit would work for me.
[12:20] Kaluura Boa: Meshes are coming, everybody is concerned... worried.... panicking... etc...
[12:21] Rex Cronon: if scripts increase prim count than who will want to make meshes interactive? they will be just props, that stand there and look pretty
[12:21] Kadah Coba: It will just lead to using collessed objects using standard, inefficient prims for all the scripting and physical needs in large builds.
[12:21] Qie Niangao: Rex: Attachments and vehicles only.
[12:21] Andrew Linden: Scripted objects are more "expensive" to keep in RAM and to send across region boundaries, so there are some arguments in favor of having scripts contribute to an overall "cost" of the object.
[12:21] Kaluura Boa: Yeah... Even restricted sculpties are better than meshes...
[12:22] Kadah Coba: [12:19] Kadah (kadah.coba): Either all objects have script costs or its non-effective.
[12:22] Vincent Nacon: common logic versus common sense, Andrew
[12:22] Rex Cronon: overall cost maybe, but don't increase prim count because of scripts
[12:22] Ardy Lay: People are pushing back when they see the availability of unaccounted resources being limited.
[12:22] Liisa Runo: if we make scrpts affect the PE of mesh, we will have broken content some day when we get script limits to the rest of the content
[12:22] Andrew Linden: Also, there is our problem: we can never increase the cost of objects once they are being used, since that would inevitably break some content somewhere.
[12:23] Kadah Coba: Pre L-Day, script limits was supposed to do that.
[12:23] Pauline Darkfury: I fully recognise there's a cost to scripts, but I can't agree with that being pushed anywhere near prim count for existing stuff
[12:23] Andrew Linden: So we can only lower costs going forward...
[12:23] Leonel Iceghost: two scripts in an object cost more than only one script? otherwise it is the same than one script or none..
[12:23] Qie Niangao: Can't afford PE of Meshes in scripted furniture... so poseballs will rez their unscripted furniture.
[12:23] Pauline Darkfury: equally, not all scripts are equal
[12:23] Andrew Linden: so mesh, being a new feature can only have its costs set high at first, and lowered over time if any adjustment is required
[12:24] Pauline Darkfury: A trivial door script could be as little as maybe just 4kB, a world apart from some heavy commerce script
[12:24] Liisa Runo: no, you cant even lower it, or something will break
[12:24] Andrew Linden: Yes, good point... not all scripts are created equal.
[12:24] Vincent Nacon: long term plains are out of the window
[12:24] Kelly Linden: having a script is just a mark that the object is dynamic in some way and the cost is associated with the added system (not script) overhead that dynamic objects entail.
[12:24] Andrew Linden: why can't it be lowered Liisa?
[12:24] Vincent Nacon: plans*
[12:24] Pauline Darkfury: You can lower it, as long as it's consistently lowered, and the lowering is never rolled back
[12:25] Andrew Linden: You mean someone might be using the exsiting prim limit as a feature?
[12:25] DesolateStudios: No offense, and I understand your position about content breaking -- but that rule will eventually have to be re-evaluated in order to SL to advance. I know it's a golden rule, but if you're introducing new measurement systems, the worst thing that can happen is stuff gets returned. Heck you could even have a transition period where people are sent IMs about things being returned before they're turnered
[12:25] Rex Cronon: do u have an AI that can justly determine how equal or unequal scripts are?
[12:25] Andrew Linden: that AI is not written yet Rex
[12:25] Liisa Runo: cant lower it cause when mesh get rolled, we make scripts that rely on the behavior of that day, even lowering it will confuse those scripts
[12:25] Rex Cronon: i assumed that:)
[12:25] Kelly Linden: how will lowering it confuse the scripts Liisa?
[12:25] Pauline Darkfury: Returns can be disasterous. Unless the issues with mass returns have been addressed, they can range from stuff just not making it to lost & found, through needing special access to Unpackistan to be able to get the content again
[12:25] Andrew Linden: excellent point DesolateStudios, and I agree with you.
[12:25] Leonel Iceghost: Kelly, a dynamic object with a script is not the same than a dynamic object with 1000 scripts.. what why we need script limits different than physics
[12:26] Kaluura Boa: You won't be able to write a script to calculate the PE... You just don't have the data available...
[12:26] Pauline Darkfury: Not to mention that some content which is in-world and loved may well be owned by people who are dead in RL (or have just left SL), and could end up lost forever
[12:27] Liisa Runo: the script expects the perim count to be X. and if it is something else, the script fail to work, no matter if the PE is bigger or smalletr
[12:27] Kelly Linden: How Liisa?
[12:27] Pauline Darkfury: That risk is always around for stuff where the object owner is just gone, but major grid-wide returns could cause huge anguish
[12:27] Kelly Linden: The prim count won't change with PE changes.
[12:27] Andrew Linden: Ok, this hour is almost half over. Naomi, you had a topic you wanted to bring up?
[12:27] Vincent Nacon: letting your personal feeling in the way?
[12:27] Ardy Lay: Consumer cost change to reflect suppply costs, supply volume and demand. It's a fact of life. People can't write a program that always expects gasoline to cost X and scream "sky is falling" when the price fluctuates.
[12:27] Liisa Runo: i dont know how, i dont write every script in the grid
[12:27] Naomi Sands: Yes It is about Someone and Abuse
[12:28] Naomi Sands: This person is So bad he is sending out So many bad messages about me ..(I Don;t know how to Stop him
[12:28] Vincent Nacon: even if it has to happen, claim it was freak storm
[12:28] Liisa Runo: and i dont realy care, it souds like no one will use meshes for anything anyway, too PE expensive and wasting too much resources for complex PE calculations
[12:28] Simon Linden: If it's a particular abuse issue, we're not able to address it here
[12:28] Pauline Darkfury: If current costs can't continue to support the current prim limits & costs, put tier up, rather than changing the costs on existing rezzed content
[12:28] Andrew Linden: Yeah, we dopn
[12:29] Kaluura Boa: IF you raise the tier... Half of SL will be abandoned...
[12:29] Naomi Sands: This Person Has Many Alts and he uses then To cause abouse for Fun
[12:29] Andrew Linden: We don't handle abuse directly, however if there is a grief mode in SL that can be fixed by technical changes to the system we're interested.
[12:29] Pauline Darkfury: Well, the same applies if you break half the world, Kaluura, that's the problem
[12:29] Vincent Nacon: muhaha!
[12:30] Naomi Sands: Ok Thank You Andrew:)
[12:30] Andrew Linden: (techical changes, as opposed to policy)
[12:30] Pauline Darkfury: I don't want higher tier, but that would be a lesser evil than grid-wide breakage due to object cost change
[12:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[12:30] Vincent Nacon: either way, both would have to happen at some point
[12:30] DesolateStudios: I suppose the abuse thing could be a simulator thing, what are the chances of getting an opaque IP ban list for estate managers? Basically banning an account and all accounts from the same IP, but without the EM knowing the IP?
[12:31] Pauline Darkfury: IP ban doesn't work, see the long explanation I and others have posted in the Jira ticket asking for it
[12:31] Rex Cronon: desolate, there r anon services
[12:31] DesolateStudios: I'd still like it in, even if it's not 100%
[12:31] Ardy Lay: I'd be afraid to do that as IP addresses are not generally the property of the end user.
[12:31] Kaluura Boa: I got a new IP everytime I reset my router... Don't make me laugh with IP ban...
[12:31] Andrew Linden: A blind IP ban is technically possible DesolateStudios. However it can cause confusion too.
[12:32] Pauline Darkfury: I can change my IP address in approx 60s
[12:32] Vincent Nacon: we would have used IP ban long ago if it wasn't such an issue with other type of people with different kind of IP address
[12:32] Liisa Runo: IP ban will only result innocent ppl get banned, IP's change all the time, ppl get used IP's
[12:32] Pauline Darkfury: I can even do it with zero downtime if I'm careful about the method used
[12:32] DesolateStudios: Well then the fault is on the Estate Manager then.
[12:32] Techwolf Lupindo: Temp IP ban works, perm ban IP don't.
[12:32] Kadah Coba: IP bans also tend to ban entire ISPs/cities/countries.
[12:32] Andrew Linden: IP bans would tend to have collateral damage, which would be reported as bugs unless the cause of the problem were well communicated to those affected.
[12:32] Rex Cronon: temp ip ban doesn't sound that bad
[12:33] DesolateStudios: How about hardware ban (yah I know about shady viewers)
[12:33] Vincent Nacon: IP timer ban?
[12:33] Pauline Darkfury: It's not the EM at fault when they ban an evil person and 2 weeks later an innocent person can't get in and the EM has no way of telling which of many useless IP bans are blocking them, while the evil person is still getting in with impunity
[12:33] Rex Cronon: like 6-24 hours
[12:33] Andrew Linden: Hrm... temp, blind IP ban...
[12:33] Vincent Nacon: I was thinking more like 2 weeks
[12:33] Pauline Darkfury: 24h max for a temp ban, tbh
[12:34] Vincent Nacon: if I got banned... I wouldn't mind waiting 24 hours
[12:34] Vincent Nacon: and repeat griefing
[12:34] Pauline Darkfury: Only LL have the info to actually evaluate the harm an IP ban is likely to cause, and that needs human evaluation, on the whole
[12:34] Vincent Nacon: 2 weeks is mildly good enough for dumbasses
[12:34] Vincent Nacon: which of course if doesn't know about IP changing
[12:34] Ardy Lay: When I instate and IP address block I block the entire address space assigned to the serving ISP and send them a message saying what happened. THey then deal with their abusive subscriber.
[12:35] Pauline Darkfury: Orange PCS (major 3G mobile comms provider, including mobile broadband) push the whole of the UK through just 8 IP addresses
[12:35] Andrew Linden: well, if it were per-region or per-parcel temp IP banning it might be a useful tool
[12:35] Techwolf Lupindo: EM adjustable temp bans. Let the EM/Admins make the choise for private esates.
[12:35] Vincent Nacon: aye
[12:35] DesolateStudios: I guess my main concern is that as an estate owner, I'd like a little more control over who can visit my estate, alts and all. I don't care to know who their alt is, but if I have to spend 6 hours of my day banning new alts that come by to make trouble because they have nothing to do -- it's a big waste of my time and they're "winning" anyways
[12:35] Pauline Darkfury: There's also documented cases of the United Arab Emirates using a tiny number of addresses for the nation
[12:35] Andrew Linden: it is an interesting idea. I'll try to ask a few other people to see what they think.
[12:35] Rex Cronon: i think a lot of them will be able to change their ip in 24 hours, so it is useless to extended it to weeks. IMO
[12:35] Kadah Coba: Parcel bans don't even work over like 300m
[12:36] Andrew Linden: right, we banned all of UAE for a while way back in 2003 or 2004
[12:36] DesolateStudios: hah!
[12:36] Kadah Coba: That happens a lot.
[12:36] Vincent Nacon: Kadah, that was because of complaints from airplane users
[12:36] Pauline Darkfury: I'd have to check to get the phone network, but a SL friend in Florida who logs in via mobile broadband has the same thing, tiny number of real addresses. Her comms provider actually got IP banned by LL in error, took several days to get it unbanned
[12:36] Kadah Coba: Ditto for eastern Europe.
[12:36] Pauline Darkfury: Many many cases of that ilk
[12:37] Andrew Linden: I wonder if a "smarter" ban could be done that includes IP address and other info...
[12:38] Vincent Nacon: smarter how?
[12:38] DesolateStudios: I understand there are a lot of cases where people can get caught in the crossfire. As a medium sized estate owner, a lot of time is wasted filing ARs, cleaning up the estate, and more just dealing with griefer alts
[12:38] Pauline Darkfury: If you want to suggest using the hardware hash, that's cool, go for it!
[12:38] Andrew Linden: I don't have any bright ideas on what that other info would be right now...
[12:38] Kadah Coba: Use their email addresses too
[12:38] Andrew Linden: hardware hashs can be spoofed
[12:38] Ashiri Sands: Even if you grab the MAC and computer config, there are ways around that
[12:38] Rex Cronon: there is a limit to how smart u can make the ban, cosidering that the viewer is open source
[12:38] Andrew Linden: that is, info supplied by the viewer can be spoofed
[12:38] DesolateStudios: Or, let me toss this out there, how about an estate option (non-scripted) that lets accounts in after they are X days old?
[12:38] Mercille Linden: was just looking that up - apparently easier to fake a mac address than an IP one
[12:39] Pauline Darkfury: Well, the people who are capable of spoofing hardware hashes are not going to be stopped for more than 5-10 mins by IP bans
[12:39] Vincent Nacon: or quietly add ban flag on the viewer
[12:39] DesolateStudios: yes, there's ways around everything. Not everyone is knowledgeable about it -- and i don't think it's a great reason to invalidate any sort of control option.
[12:39] Vincent Nacon: I don't mean ban the user with this "type" of viewer
[12:39] Pauline Darkfury: People don't even have to be knowledgeable to change IP. The just reboot or type "ipconfig /renew"
[12:40] Vincent Nacon: a viewer that refuses to log on because of the flag checked quietly
[12:40] Ardy Lay: Password protect regions/estates. ;-)
[12:40] Ashiri Sands: Age limits are often the easiest way to control griefer accounts
[12:40] Vincent Nacon: it may not stop custom builds but still keep most "kids" out
[12:41] Vincent Nacon: we did tried that, Ashiri
[12:41] DesolateStudios: In my experience, the best option is to have a sort of "newbie timer" where accounts over x days are allowed. Accounts under are teleported home. The problem with that is I don't control all the land in my estate. So people can just teleport into a parcel and hang out. Griefers and the like don't have the patience to wait a week or two to grief a sim again.
[12:41] Ardy Lay: I once used "Buy Pass" to keep the chaff out of my home.
[12:41] Pauline Darkfury: Nothing that is solely based on IP can work properly. The really big issue is the EM can't know which of many bans is blocking someone innocent to let them back in.
[12:41] DesolateStudios: Maybe IP ban in conjunction with account whitelist?
[12:42] Rex Cronon: ll can trace messages
[12:42] Andrew Linden: or IP ban + account age?
[12:42] Andrew Linden: no... a simple account age would be easier
[12:42] Pauline Darkfury: And, when you've banned 25% of UK mobile broadband users, or the whole of the UAE, are you going to whitelist all of them? WHat about your paying tenants on the estate, will they be happy losing entire nations of customers?
[12:42] Vincent Nacon: ... don't we already have that?
[12:43] Vincent Nacon: yeah we do...
[12:43] DesolateStudios: I understand your concerns Pauline, I am just trying to come up with ideas.
[12:43] Andrew Linden: the account age limit? is it configurable?
[12:43] Pauline Darkfury: The thing rapidly turns into a self-DoS tool unless the person doing the banning can see the IP and do proper educated detective work
[12:43] DesolateStudios: I think it should be.
[12:43] Vincent Nacon: it's in access tab in parcel
[12:43] Rex Cronon: u could deny users that r one day old from rezzing, scripting, only if on special parcels
[12:44] Vincent Nacon: oh you mean actually define the age limit like 37 and up?
[12:44] Pauline Darkfury: Yes, a minimum account age might have some merits
[12:44] DesolateStudios: If the account age thing were implimented into estate options, just have it be an integer of days. Right now it's just a scripted object that allows people to teleport in, but teleports them home
[12:44] Rex Cronon: if they want to rez/script they need to either have POIF or ask them to do communit work:)
[12:44] Andrew Linden: no, actually I meant: age of account (how long ago was the account created)
[12:45] Techwolf Lupindo: I"ve been seeing a huge increase of zero and one day old avatar at Aggro. Would like to restrict them from comming there in the first place, would prever them to buy the stuff from a vender mall that has the staff hours to support new users.
[12:45] Rex Cronon: community*
[12:45] DesolateStudios: For instance Accounts trying to teleport to a region with this feature, that were under it's (defined) 7 says would be sent a message along the lines of not being able to teleport there.
[12:45] Vincent Nacon: you know... I used to remember having "profile rating" which was a great way to know if this person is nice or not.
[12:46] Pauline Darkfury: and a great way for people to gang up on someone innocent, but disliked, to trash their SL experience
[12:46] Andrew Linden: Profile rating is complicated. It can be gamed, so it needs to be done carefully.
[12:46] Rex Cronon: people gamed that vincent
[12:46] Vincent Nacon: of course
[12:46] Imaze Rhiano: IP based ban + name ban + white list + avatar age requiremnt would be better than nothing
[12:46] Ashiri Sands: getting complicated there
[12:46] Rex Cronon: temp ip ban. not permanent. please
[12:46] Liisa Runo: .... cant think of any foolproof way to prevent griefing. But g-team should hire more staff and get back to 24/7 system.
[12:47] Vincent Nacon: yup
[12:47] Imaze Rhiano: at least better than current 3rd party "security systems"
[12:47] Vincent Nacon: with all the costing?
[12:47] Vincent Nacon: muhaha!
[12:47] Techwolf Lupindo: Prohibit by display name. Example: Only allow avatar with display names with ASCII charaters only. :-)
[12:47] Pauline Darkfury: Don't get me wrong, I'd love to actually get rid of griefers, I just passionately believe that IP bans would actually cause far more trouble and drama than they would solve
[12:47] DesolateStudios: haha!
[12:48] Imaze Rhiano: ebil...
[12:48] Rex Cronon: i don't have a display name. what is going to happen. will i be baned for that?
[12:48] Vincent Nacon: nothing
[12:48] Kaluura Boa: Eventually... =^_^=
[12:48] Kadah Coba: IP bans *DID* cause a lot of drama, remember RedZone and party.
[12:48] Vincent Nacon: display name are for those who couldn't get a good name soon enough
[12:48] Leonel Iceghost: in your smarter detection you could ban the objects/script they use tro grief
[12:49] Pauline Darkfury: Yes, indeed, Kadah. We've been there, it failed, it caused possibly record-breaking drama
[12:49] Ashiri Sands: ban "bullet"?
[12:49] Pauline Darkfury: You can script a ban gun already ;)
[12:49] Imaze Rhiano: IP bans did cause lot's of drama - because 3rd party was handling IP bans - not big drama source if LL would handle it
[12:49] Vincent Nacon: yup
[12:49] Leonel Iceghost: a bullet is griefing?
[12:49] Vincent Nacon: in some case
[12:49] Pauline Darkfury: Not if you're the landowner, Leonel
[12:50] Qie Niangao: different drahmas, both tragedies.
[12:50] Rex Cronon: there r some very nasty bullets:)
[12:50] Kaluura Boa: For some ppl, touching their IP is like probing their virginity... They don't like it...
[12:50] Leonel Iceghost: I was thinking of "lag bombs" griefing
[12:50] Pauline Darkfury: A huge part of the RZ drama was false positives caused by the fundamental flaws in IP matching
[12:50] Liisa Runo: oh yes! i want to be able to ban by content creator, Ban everyone wearing or rezzing items created by "iLag Xue" that wold be awesome
[12:50] Ashiri Sands: except a lot of griefing objects have Lindens as creators
[12:51] Vincent Nacon: ban everyone!
[12:51] Rex Cronon: ilag xue can creat alt:)
[12:51] Andrew Linden: Liisa, how big would your "by content creator" blacklist be?
[12:51] Leonel Iceghost: Liisa, the point is that someone gives the object to the grieffer when the account is created..
[12:51] Ardy Lay: "SecondLife: The object you are attempting to rez has been denied access by the owner of this parcel or estate. This attempt has been logged."
[12:51] Pauline Darkfury: object creator is largely meaningless. so is script creator
[12:51] Leonel Iceghost: no need to ban the creator, but detect the grieffer in the sim
[12:51] Liisa Runo: by blacklist would be BIG, oh so very big, after all, about 9% of SL is copybotted
[12:51] Vincent Nacon: there are needs for it, Leo
[12:51] Pauline Darkfury: the creator info is basically only true and accurate if the person who gave the thing to you wants it to be
[12:52] Rex Cronon: u could get the has for code and ban based on that:)
[12:52] Vincent Nacon: some people are still selling copybotted work, legally
[12:52] Rex Cronon: the hash*
[12:53] Vincent Nacon: oh the irony... SL is all about bringing people together and yet here we're talking about banning them
[12:53] DesolateStudios: Made it a JIRA: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7135
[12:53] JIRA-helper: [#SVC-7135] Add an estate option to prevent accounts from accessing an estate based on their account age.
[12:53] Simon Linden: yeah, the irony it pretty thick ... but I personally think mis-behavior is one of the big things killing SL. Just spend some time at the public telehubs
[12:54] Ardy Lay: +1M Simon
[12:54] Vincent Nacon whispers: telehub? who goes there anymore?
[12:54] Kaluura Boa: =^_^=
[12:54] Rex Cronon: "your world. your imagination":)
[12:54] Ardy Lay: lulz bait
[12:54] Pauline Darkfury: Well, to change the topic and squeeze something important in before the end. Kelly, I'm feeling really quite positive after just a few hours of the performance fix, for C5 full sims. It's decreased the per-script overhead a good bit (but not quite back to where we were, just closer). It also seems refreshingly good on rez & derez lag
[12:54] Ashiri Sands: Griefers go there
[12:54] Qie Niangao: Yeah, but giving estates the power to ban newbies won't help at the infohubs. the good newbies just won't have as many places to escape to.
[12:54] Simon Linden: Newbies, Vincent, and that's the problem
[12:54] Vincent Nacon: no that's not a problem
[12:54] Rex Cronon: newbies r not the problem. griefers r
[12:55] Vincent Nacon: the basic viewer is driving the newbies away
[12:55] Pauline Darkfury: Interestingly, I'm not seeing the reduced per-script overhead on C7s, just C5s. I also don't have any homesteads to comment on that side of it
[12:55] Kadah Coba: Bring back mentors.
[12:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[12:55] Pauline Darkfury: C5s went from approx 3300 scripts to hit a hard 0.0ms spare up to about 4400.
[12:55] Simon Linden: That's a nice jump upwards
[12:56] Vincent Nacon: oh yeah... didn't we talked about having some sort of system where people can be elected as mods?
[12:56] Vincent Nacon: just like the system on the forum?
[12:56] Pauline Darkfury: So, maybe a bit more work needed overall, but some definite steps in the right direction on full sims, from my perspective
[12:56] Ardy Lay: SL "oldbies" want new people here but most of the new accounts we see turn out to be people that are not new to SL. Just more alternate accounts. Some of which are used for nefarious purposes.
[12:56] Flip Idlemind: So, any ideas what kind of fun stuff is getting RC'd this week? The "Deploys for the week of..." post always says "info coming soon"
[12:57] Rex Cronon: btw. in the following image, it says that a sculptie tree is now worth 600 prims. is that right? http://www.flickr.com/photos/28831595@N05/5976651997/sizes/l/in/photostream/
[12:57] Fancy Greeter: Brett Linden has arrived!
[12:57] Kaluura Boa: =^_^= 600 prims? No can do!
[12:57] Ardy Lay: Arawn, are you casting shadows on this meeting? ;-)
[12:57] Vincent Nacon: maybe the whole mesh thing was a bad idea
[12:57] Pauline Darkfury: Oh yeah, Prok had a rant about that a day or 2 ago. I'm assuming it's just totally erroneous data? I hope?
[12:57] Rex Cronon: look at the picture yourself
[12:58] Qie Niangao: oh, *that* old viewer. that's some goofy object-rendering thing...
[12:58] Qie Niangao: the prim count would go where [COUNT] appears
[12:58] Andrew Linden: a sculpty tree costing 600 prims is probably a bug
[12:58] Kelly Linden: that is the 'thorn' which is not prim count or PE, it is like ARC for non-avatars
[12:58] Pauline Darkfury: hopefully just a viewer display bug, not a server counting bug?
[12:58] Kelly Linden: if I recall correctly
[12:58] Rex Cronon: u realize that a lot of people would get scared when they see that cost?
[12:59] Ardy Lay: That isn't the prim count. It's the apprimimate render cost.
[12:59] Kelly Linden: I don't think the thorn is in the latest mesh viewers at all
[12:59] Qie Niangao: it's just a flaw in the build tool for a generation of viewers... unfortunately including the current official release, IIRC
[12:59] Flip Idlemind: Isn't that picture showing the "rendering cost" as 601? Not the prim count
[12:59] Pauline Darkfury: yeah, there's the object equivalent of ARC in newer viewers
[12:59] Kelly Linden: there is no prim count in that screenshot
[12:59] Qie Niangao: it's not in the dev viewer either. not sure about the beta.
[12:59] Vincent Nacon: it's that p symbol
[13:00] Rex Cronon: well. people see "600 Prims [count]". the don't see there render cost
[13:00] Kadah Coba: Thorn is not in mesh dev last I checked, it has a big text field across that part of the floater for its PE junk
[13:00] Kelly Linden: yeah buggy and now old viewer.
[13:00] Pauline Darkfury: Ahh yeah, it reads "p 600 Prims: [COUNT]"
[13:00] Vincent Nacon: yeah
[13:00] Simon Linden: Agreed, it's really a really mis-leading UI bug
[13:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[13:00] Pauline Darkfury: yeah, just very unfortunate how you can read it in a horror story way
[13:00] Rex Cronon: and that gives birth to lots of rumors. bad ones
[13:00] Vincent Nacon: bye bye Meeter, thank you for telling me that
[13:00] Vincent Nacon rolls his eyes
[13:01] Ashiri Sands: some people love making horror stories for their blogs
[13:01] Rex Cronon: now they have pictures too:)
[13:01] Leonel Iceghost: about meshes, I live in a country where an international credit card is very expensive, they're all national.. is there any way I can upload meshes other way? perhaps passport?
[13:01] Pauline Darkfury: paypal?
[13:01] Flip Idlemind: Just the other night I was with some people and one of them was like "This table is 479 prims :O" and the other one was all "...Looks like 12 to me o.O"
[13:01] Kaluura Boa: Yeah... Paypal... It's free...
[13:02] Leonel Iceghost: paypal need verified account, which needs an international credit card
[13:02] Leonel Iceghost: not free
[13:02] Vincent Nacon: should able to use the same system for verfing age
[13:02] Ardy Lay: My PayPal account was verified by depositing money into my checking account with it.
[13:02] Vincent Nacon: err oh wait... legal term says they can't use that to store info
[13:02] Pauline Darkfury: Maybe put a billing ticket in, ask them to give you a list of all possible methods in your country, for both old and new billing processing options
[13:03] Adamburp Adamczyk: don;t even eate your tiem on tickets
[13:03] Adamburp Adamczyk: waste*
[13:03] Kadah Coba: Age verify is dead, its a check box now.
[13:03] Leonel Iceghost: you live in a country Paypal friendly then, they list the countrys they support.. not many, mine has limited support just with international credit cards
[13:03] Pauline Darkfury: Billing tickets get handled pretty quickly
[13:03] Qie Niangao: Yeah, Billing is usually very good.
[13:03] Simon Linden: The verification issue really comes from our legal department ... I'm not familiar at all with the restrictions there, but I know it's important to have a real connection to the actual person that did the upload
[13:03] Vincent Nacon: aye
[13:03] Leonel Iceghost: passport is real..
[13:04] DesolateStudios: For the record, before you all leave. I really like the mesh questionaire. It's very clever.
[13:04] Ardy Lay: Yes. I am in U.S.A. so am clueless to the plight of residents of other locations.
[13:04] Vincent Nacon: I didn't think it was clever, it was too easy
[13:04] Andrew Linden: I've got to go... too much work to do. Thanks for coming everyone.
[13:04] Imaze Rhiano: ya.... mesh questionare.... too easy ... I did get 2 right
[13:04] Pauline Darkfury: Thanks, Andrew :)
[13:04] Vincent Nacon: I got 100%
[13:04] Liisa Runo: thanks everyone
[13:04] Pauline Darkfury: Please remember the mesh prim bloat issue :) :)
[13:04] DesolateStudios: It's very educational to those who read it, which is the important thing.
[13:04] Vincent Nacon: that too
[13:04] Pauline Darkfury: Thanks other Lindens too :)
[13:05] Rex Cronon: tc andrew, simon and everybody else. have a nice day
[13:05] Pauline Darkfury: Have a good afternoon
[13:05] Simon Linden: Thanks everyone for coming and the good discussion
[13:05] Vincent Nacon: BAN EVERYONE!
[13:05] Vincent Nacon: :D
Simulator_User_Group
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