Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2014.03.18

Simulator_User_Group
Prev 2014.03.11	Next 2014.03.25
== List of Speakers ==
Drongle McMahon 	Duckie Dickins 	Inara Pey
Jenna Felton 	Kelly Linden 	Lexbot Sinister
Lucia Nightfire 	Met Westminster	Mona Eberhardt
Motor Loon 	Nalates Urriah 	Oz Linden
Qie Niangao 	Rex Cronon 	Tankmaster Finesmith
utterly Wizardly	Whirly Fizzle 	Yuzuru Jewell
== Transcript ==
[11:59] Yuzuru Jewell: Hello, Kelly.
[11:59] Yuzuru Jewell: Hello, Nalates.
[11:59] Kelly Linden: Hello.
[11:59] Jenna Felton: hi Nal, Kelly, Rex and Dronle
[11:59] Lucia Nightfire: brb
[12:00] Drongle McMahon: Hello everyone
[12:00] Rex Cronon: hi everybody
[12:00] Rex Cronon: hi drongle
[12:00] Inara Pey: Hey, Drongle, Rex
[12:00] Nalates Urriah: Hi Yuz, Jenna, everyone
[12:00] Rex Cronon: hi inara
[12:00] Rex Cronon: hi nalates
[12:00] Kelly Linden: Good afternoon. Simon will (probably) not be making to this meeting today.
[12:01] Nalates Urriah: :) Rex
[12:01] Lexbot Sinister: Totally unrelated to St Pattys?
[12:01] Kelly Linden: There was no server update today, and none tomorrow.
[12:01] Rex Cronon: hi kelly
[12:01] Kelly Linden: Unrelated to St. Pattys, probably.
[12:01] rcdsQueChatLog: Rex Cronon, you can read the log here:
http://rcds.nfshost.com/ques_view_chatLog.php?queOwner=llsl:Rex+Cronon&queName=chatLog&pg=1
[12:01] Tankmaster Finesmith thinks simon is busy with server work
[12:02] Kelly Linden: I don't have any specific news or updates today, so with that very quick intro I think we can jump straight to an open table.
[12:03] Kelly Linden: Any questions or topics?
[12:03] Lucia Nightfire: thy're comnig
[12:04] Rex Cronon: wb lucia
[12:04] Qie Niangao: so, here's a bug that is rightfully "minor" priority, but challenged my sanity... and still stretches credibility: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7739
[12:04] Tankmaster Finesmith: the zombies?
[12:04] Qie Niangao: Basically, all Linden ground cover like plants revert to "grass tall 1" given a sim restart.
[12:06] Motor Loon: Oh that would suck
[12:06] Qie Niangao: Like... wuh? How is that even possible?
[12:06] Kelly Linden: that sounds pretty wrong. It was imported a couple years ago, but given the 'minor' priority has not had more than a cursory investigation at this time.
[12:06] Kelly Linden: Qie: have you confirmed it happening for all grass types or just that ground cover one?
[12:06] Qie Niangao: actually, personally, just that one "leafy ground cover" one
[12:07] Kelly Linden: Are you using the one from the library, or by the build tool?
[12:07] Kelly Linden: (I'd assume the library)
[12:07] Qie Niangao: the Library, yeah.
[12:07] Kelly Linden: I wonder if that asset is busted in some way.
[12:07] Whirly Fizzle: Whats happening with it? Sorry I missed the start
[12:07] Kelly Linden: if you use the build tool one enough times you should be able to get it to create the type you want and take that to inventory. Dunno if it will behave better.
[12:08] Qie Niangao: if you look around the Mainland at old Mole builds, there are a heck of a lot of "leafy ground cover" plants that look like "grass tall 1" ... but that's something I could try, yeah.
[12:08] rcdsQueChatLog: Lucia Nightfire, you can read the log here:
http://rcds.nfshost.com/ques_view_chatLog.php?queOwner=llsl:Rex+Cronon&queName=chatLog&pg=1
[12:08] Whirly Fizzle: Oh! is it this? I don't think it was ever fixed https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7739
[12:08] Qie Niangao: I'll do that, Kelly, and report results to that jira.
[12:08] Kelly Linden: okay, thanks Qie.
[12:08] Qie Niangao: yeah, that's the one, whirly
[12:08] Lucia Nightfire: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-28052 <--is this being looked at any?
[12:09] Lucia Nightfire: I still repro it on v3
[12:09] Lucia Nightfire: basically have an active setcamera and then open edit menu by pie menu
[12:09] Lucia Nightfire: camera then focuses on you
[12:09] Lucia Nightfire: using ctrl3 it won't
[12:10] Kelly Linden: Lucy - pie menu you mean right click menu, or are you only seeing this in a TPV?
[12:10] Lucia Nightfire: I see it on v3
[12:10] Lucia Nightfire: and yes, pie menu
[12:10] Kelly Linden: The linden viewer does not have pie menus any more.
[12:10] Lucia Nightfire: drop down, then
[12:11] Lucia Nightfire: I'm used to calling it pie regardless, lol
[12:11] Kelly Linden: Should make sure it is happening on the official viewer, but I don't see any progress on that issue right now.
[12:11] Rex Cronon: just the interface changed. the bug stayed
[12:11] Lucia Nightfire: I did
[12:11] Lucia Nightfire: it repro's on v3
[12:13] Met Westminster: I have to ask, am I intrudingÉ
[12:13] Lucia Nightfire: this isn't a secret handshake meeting, lol
[12:13] Lucia Nightfire: we're not the illuminati, heh
[12:13] Met Westminster: Is this triage?
[12:13] Tankmaster Finesmith: no
[12:14] Lexbot Sinister: Wait, what? We aren't the illuminati? Someone forgot to send me that memo.
[12:14] Tankmaster Finesmith: LL doesnt do public triages anymore
[12:14] Whirly Fizzle: Its this... http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Server/Sim/Scripting_User_Group :)
[12:14] Met Westminster: Very cool
[12:14] Rex Cronon: this is the masonic order;)
[12:15] Qie Niangao: You can *pretend* it's triage. The placebo effect is very powerful.
[12:15] Met Westminster grabs waffles and sits on down
[12:15] Met Westminster: I didn't think so much that it was triage. You're all so polite :)
[12:16] Whirly Fizzle: lol
[12:16] Rex Cronon: met. go here to read the discussion log 4 today: http://rcds.nfshost.com/ques_view_chatLog.php?queOwner=llsl:Rex+Cronon&queName=chatLog&pg=1
[12:16] Met Westminster: As a matter of fact, I'm the alt of someone who does have a useful issue to bring. I'll log her on
[12:18] Lucia Nightfire: anything coming down teh pipe soon in the area of shineys?
[12:19] Lucia Nightfire: can you comment any on exp perms
[12:19] Met Westminster: Here's the lion, I wish you all fun and joy, tyty
[12:20] Tankmaster Finesmith: theres lots of shinies coming down the pipeline
[12:20] Kelly Linden: I don't have any experience permissions news.
[12:20] Rex Cronon: ?
[12:20] Kelly Linden: Or really any shiny news at the moment.
[12:20] Whirly Fizzle: Group bans soon though! \o/ \o/
[12:20] Lexbot Sinister: What is the majority of the work put on, atm?
[12:20] Kelly Linden: yes, baker is making progress there
[12:20] Lucia Nightfire: once the major bugs are worked out
[12:21] rcdsQueChatLog: Ron Khondji, you can read the log here:
http://rcds.nfshost.com/ques_view_chatLog.php?queOwner=llsl:Rex+Cronon&queName=chatLog&pg=1
[12:21] Rex Cronon: its so much fun when u can ban yourself;)
[12:21] Whirly Fizzle: Ebbe said on Twitter that group chat fail was being worked on and he expected improvements to be seen in 3-4 weeks. Any news on that?
[12:22] Mona Eberhardt: Hi everyone!
[12:22] Rex Cronon: hi mona
[12:23] Whirly Fizzle: Heya Mona,. hey oz
[12:23] Kelly Linden: I don't really keep a close watch on anything on twitter. I'm glad to hear how optimistic he is on it, but given past experience I prefer a stronger wait-and-see approach myself.
[12:23] Lexbot Sinister: Seriously? if this happens under Ebbe's reign, hell truly freezes over.
[12:23] rcdsQueChatLog: Mona Eberhardt, you can read the log here:
http://rcds.nfshost.com/ques_view_chatLog.php?queOwner=llsl:Rex+Cronon&queName=chatLog&pg=1
[12:24] utterly Wizardly: Okay, here's my thing, I have a little issue that came up, Monday evening. It is a set of scripts I've used a zillion times, with no issues
[12:24] utterly Wizardly: How do I get my place in line to talk on it?
[12:24] Rex Cronon: if group chat gets "fixed", it will be very interesting how over 100 people will be able to understand eachother when they talk at the same time:)
[12:24] Lucia Nightfire: you just did
[12:25] utterly Wizardly: Oh, if I got it, I'll be brave and say what happened
[12:25] utterly Wizardly: I used a lite rezzer script set, written in 2010 by Zaube Exonar
[12:25] utterly Wizardly: It was for a texturing contest, I was the builder of the piece
[12:26] utterly Wizardly: *correction, Zauber, not Zaube*
[12:26] Lucia Nightfire: get ready Whirls, heh
[12:26] Duckie Dickins: Jira bot activate!
[12:26] utterly Wizardly: 9 people put out the rez device, and rezzed their pieces
[12:26] Kelly Linden: As Ebbe has confirmed someone is looking at and working on group chat. However it is a non-trivial problem saddled with a lot of legacy and high expectations. I have reviewed some of the changes so I do know changes are being made that sound like
[12:26] Kelly Linden: they will make improvements.
[12:26] utterly Wizardly: One person, was shown to have 5,000 plus prims on parcel, in fact he had 95
[12:27] utterly Wizardly: this happened to one other person
[12:27] utterly Wizardly: same evening
[12:27] Lexbot Sinister: Well, we are happy thats it's been decided that one of the biggest annoyances in Sl is being at least actively looked into. Kudos for that!
[12:27] Tankmaster Finesmith: yeah, i heard WorkingOnIt Linden is assigned to group chat lag
[12:27] utterly Wizardly: Could I pass the scripts and manuals to someone much smarter than me, to ask what was wrong?
[12:28] Duckie Dickins: Sounds like someone is using a temp rezzer in the sim....I've had some of my temp rez prims show up in other people's parcel prim count when looking at it under about land
[12:28] Mona Eberhardt: I thought group chat lag was assigned to AmeliaEarhart Linden. :P
[12:28] Rex Cronon: utterly. i think it has something to do with land impact. i think it depends on the prims rezzed.
[12:28] Lucia Nightfire: or it sounds liek mesh that isn't optimized for physics or is complex and sizing ramps up teh land impct
[12:29] utterly Wizardly: The rezzer itself was 3 prims, the item in it was 93, all standard prims
[12:29] Duckie Dickins: or someone likes that twisted torus prim. :)
[12:29] Lexbot Sinister needs to flip out the 14 k LI torus again?
[12:30] utterly Wizardly: Oh, I twist up prims like a demon. Heckies, I'm a tiny
[12:30] Lucia Nightfire: or curved prims using mismatched physics shapes
[12:30] Lexbot Sinister: Toruses with materials enabled will kick up in LI like crazy. Were any of the prims with material textures on them?
[12:31] Qie Niangao: But I think I vaguely recall some problem with land impact counts not always getting updated when stuff is de-rezzed. So... how do we know there were 95 instead of 5000??
[12:31] utterly Wizardly: That's the thing, not everyone had it happen, only two out of nine contestants
[12:32] Rex Cronon: utterly, its very likely that is not your scripts fault
[12:32] Lexbot Sinister: 1019 torus.
[12:33] Whirly Fizzle: So your contestanats all had this same rezzer, rezzed the build and then had to texture that build for the contest?
[12:33] utterly Wizardly: That's right
[12:34] utterly Wizardly: They all had same rezzer and same build in their rezzer
[12:34] Qie Niangao: ooo... if somebody used alpha-masking, it's curtains for the free world.
[12:34] Drongle McMahon: It's possible to make a torus >14000. I can't remember the parameters though.
[12:34] utterly Wizardly: And they all textured
[12:34] Whirly Fizzle: If one slapped a materials texture on it or changed the alpha belnding mode - easy done without realising in the build tools, I can see how suddenly you have a 5k Land impact heh
[12:34] Kelly Linden: utterly: did any of them use materials in their texturing?
[12:34] Lucia Nightfire: if the land impact reduces enough, I'll make a 13 billion land imapct linkset, heh
[12:34] Lucia Nightfire: 1.3 billion, sorry, heh
[12:35] utterly Wizardly: I'm not sure if they did, both are old timers online, and both great builders and texturers
[12:35] Lucia Nightfire: it sounds liek someone textured a torus with materials
[12:35] Whirly Fizzle: Try it yourself with the build from the rezzer. Add some materials textures & see what happens to the LI
[12:35] Lucia Nightfire: esp if everyone was working witht eh same badse asset
[12:35] Qie Niangao: to add insult to injury, there's no way for a script to *tell* if they used materials / alpha-masking
[12:35] Lucia Nightfire: *same base asset
[12:36] utterly Wizardly: Whirly, could I give you over the scripts and manual and rezzer, to try and see what happens?
[12:36] Lexbot Sinister: I got to ask- was the LI counted by script, or was the figure showing by parcel details, or did you edit the prims and see what the number was?
[12:36] Whirly Fizzle: Sure
[12:36] Qie Niangao: (Lex: excellent question)
[12:37] Rex Cronon: btw.the nr of lsl functions is kind of big. don't u guys it would be a good idea if they were divided into libraries?
[12:37] Lucia Nightfire: ^ also, changes in land impact won't always update in the edit menu
[12:37] utterly Wizardly: There they are, would anyone else like a set to test?
[12:37] Lucia Nightfire: this parcel border thing won't update correctly in edit menu, versus by script with major resizing
[12:37] Rex Cronon: u guys think*
[12:38] Duckie Dickins: I think Lex's prim is eating up all of the resources to allow for testing. :P
[12:39] Lexbot Sinister: i'll take my 12 k torus up then ;) it puts the prim allowance at minus 11 k...
[12:39] Whirly Fizzle: lol parcell is full
[12:39] Lucia Nightfire: you'll have to go over 71k to beat my single legacy prim record
[12:39] Lexbot Sinister: XD
[12:40] Lexbot Sinister: i mean, you don't have to try really hard to get up to 5 k.
[12:40] Lexbot Sinister: (i removed the torus)
[12:40] utterly Wizardly: No?
[12:40] Lucia Nightfire: I cheated and left a bunch of linksets on a timed param changing session for a half a day to get the perfect max land impact
[12:40] utterly Wizardly: I seriously hope it wasn't the scripts
[12:40] Lucia Nightfire: I certainly wasn't gonna do it all by hand, heh
[12:41] Whirly Fizzle: Okay Utterly's linkset is rezzed above us
[12:41] Oz Linden: /om
[12:41] utterly Wizardly: lot of torus stuff, in it
[12:41] Lexbot Sinister: i can totally see that rocketing up if you change materials.
[12:41] Qie Niangao: absolutely
[12:41] Drongle McMahon: 5412 physics weight
[12:41] Whirly Fizzle: I added 1 material texture
[12:42] utterly Wizardly: is that what was wrong, was the prims when materials put in the mix?
[12:42] Lexbot Sinister: yeah, looks that way
[12:42] Whirly Fizzle: Now look at its land impacr :D
[12:42] Whirly Fizzle: 5412 LU
[12:42] Whirly Fizzle: *LI
[12:42] Lucia Nightfire: torii
[12:42] Whirly Fizzle: I think you found your mysery heh
[12:42] Lucia Nightfire: and sculpts
[12:42] utterly Wizardly: So that's what I did bad
[12:42] utterly Wizardly: No sculpts in that one
[12:42] Drongle McMahon: Change physics type to CH
[12:42] Lexbot Sinister: Hmm, what happens if you set all that to convex hull, whirly?
[12:42] utterly Wizardly: I just really twist stuff up on a build
[12:43] Duckie Dickins: the grid will explode
[12:43] Whirly Fizzle: Convex hll is still 5286
[12:43] utterly Wizardly: So my fault, but, through not knowing
[12:43] Lucia Nightfire: yeah, materials trumps phys shape
[12:43] Lucia Nightfire: in regard to new accounting
[12:43] Drongle McMahon: Link a cube root and set to rest to None
[12:44] Rex Cronon: utterly. u didn't do anything bad. the fault lies with the very complex LI calculating function:(
[12:44] Lexbot Sinister: Convex hulling old builds can be sort of seen as a tool to lower the LI on old builds, if you don't know how it works
[12:44] Lexbot Sinister: and it happens that it backfires.
[12:44] Whirly Fizzle: I derezzed it... scared other stuff was going to get returned
[12:44] utterly Wizardly: I've been completely beating myself up
[12:44] Qie Niangao: hmmm. I thought that changed, such that 2 was the max LI of a convex-hulled legacy prim.
[12:45] Qie Niangao: (or sculpty)
[12:45] Lexbot Sinister: Hmm, true
[12:45] Drongle McMahon: That's download weight - physics still can be high.
[12:46] Qie Niangao: Yeah, but I thought the LI accounting was "lenient" about that, artificially. Guess not.
[12:46] utterly Wizardly: How can I prevent this from happening in the future?
[12:46] Lexbot Sinister: is it possible that old builds sometimes get flagged for either using materials, or convex hull, while they aren't?
[12:46] Whirly Fizzle: You can't really Utterly.
[12:47] Lexbot Sinister: i've seen the counter "bounce" before when rezzing at times, but i didn't think much of it.
[12:47] Whirly Fizzle: You could give them contest builds in mesh so its already using the new accounting I guess
[12:47] Qie Niangao: That would work
[12:47] Drongle McMahon: Add a single cube as the root of the linkset ans set the physics shape type of everything else to "None".
[12:47] utterly Wizardly: If I ever learn to build mesh, I could
[12:47] Qie Niangao: as long as they didn't resize it, heh
[12:47] Lucia Nightfire: don't use materials with curved prims, don't mismatch convex hull and none on curved prims, don't combine new and old prim accounting
[12:48] Lexbot Sinister: I'm thinking though it could be a bug still
[12:48] Lexbot Sinister: if it comes with the wrong flagging right out of the box, so to say.
[12:48] utterly Wizardly: I actually wondered if it could have been grief
[12:49] Drongle McMahon: I'm going to show another funny physics thing.
[12:49] utterly Wizardly: I've seen prim replicators, and such, but....geesh, I'm not a griefer, how would I know?
[12:49] utterly Wizardly: I'd love to see, Drongle
[12:50] Drongle McMahon: Walk onto the platform, and then off again.
[12:50] Whirly Fizzle: lol
[12:50] Qie Niangao: ah, one-way walls!
[12:50] Lexbot Sinister: one-sided physics!!
[12:50] Qie Niangao: a roach motel for avatars!
[12:50] utterly Wizardly: wow!
[12:50] Whirly Fizzle: haha cool
[12:50] utterly Wizardly: Traps a tiny like a roach motel!
[12:51] Drongle McMahon: Small triangles make the collision one-sided and allow you to climb the other side!
[12:51] utterly Wizardly: hehehehehehe
[12:51] Whirly Fizzle: Thats neat
[12:51] Drongle McMahon: Utterly ... you can get out by sitting on something.
[12:51] utterly Wizardly: Oh my, I loves it
[12:51] Lexbot Sinister: oh? i was thinking it was a custom physics, that just had all the normals on the inside
[12:51] Whirly Fizzle: Dbl click TP ftw :P
[12:51] Kelly Linden: 9 minute warning for this meeting.
[12:51] Drongle McMahon: So question is .... is this a bug?
[12:52] utterly Wizardly: Do you sell this?
[12:52] utterly Wizardly: I'd love a copy
[12:52] Drongle McMahon: Noo! That would make me a griefer!
[12:52] Lexbot Sinister: i wouldn't say it's a bug. it's an unsupported feature ;)
[12:52] Whirly Fizzle: Nah, its "research" :P
[12:52] Motor Loon: Might be somewhat a bug... however.... "fixing it" might cause damage to objects using this as a feature...
[12:53] Rex Cronon: nope. if u were to use that on help island it would:)
[12:53] Lexbot Sinister: useful bug = Unsupported feature XD
[12:53] Drongle McMahon: It's just a subdivided cube with inverted normals and invisible sides.
[12:53] Drongle McMahon: Is it useful?
[12:53] Lexbot Sinister: yes.
[12:54] Whirly Fizzle: Cages LD
[12:54] Yuzuru Jewell: yes
[12:54] Drongle McMahon: Traps!
[12:54] Lucia Nightfire: oh theres worse
[12:54] Qie Niangao: portals, come eXperience Perms.
[12:54] Lucia Nightfire: but I won't say
[12:54] Lexbot Sinister: Not even just cages, you could stage a game, where you get trapped when going to the wrong spots, and only have the option of tp'ing back to the starting point
[12:54] Drongle McMahon: Kelly, should I jira it?
[12:55] Lexbot Sinister: nuuu...
[12:55] Rex Cronon: if u push yourself hard enough can't u tunnel through?
[12:56] Drongle McMahon: I think it is a recent thing. I don't recall seeing this behaviour before, and I must have made shapes like this before.
[12:56] Kelly Linden: Dongle - probably a good idea to jira it.
[12:56] Jenna Felton: how many kitties this cube would collect?
[12:56] Tankmaster Finesmith whispers: yes, when in doubt about a new functionality, jira it!
[12:57] Lucia Nightfire: I've see spherical versions.
[12:57] Lexbot Sinister: i'd rather use it's quirk for good things, than remove it.
[12:57] Drongle McMahon: OK. I'll leave it open as to whether it's a bug.
[12:57] Whirly Fizzle: Attach the dae to the JIRA so we can all play with it too :P
[12:57] Tankmaster Finesmith: oh wait, oz wqas hre?
[12:57] Jenna Felton: https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/t1/1920320_10151975138353030_1189659090_n.jpg
[12:57] Tankmaster Finesmith: was*
[12:57] Lucia Nightfire: and the ones I've see can't be selected directly
[12:57] Lexbot Sinister: no, Oz is pretending.
[12:57] utterly Wizardly: Yep, I saw Oz
[12:57] Lucia Nightfire: ie, with right click or edit menu open
[12:57] utterly Wizardly: didn't want to interrupt though
[12:57] Tankmaster Finesmith: lol, i only saw the message that he left he region
[12:58] Lexbot Sinister: does it get smaller than 39 LI?
[12:58] Lucia Nightfire: oh yeah, when did it happen that you can no longer specify 0 tri's for any LOD level on mesh upload?
[12:59] Drongle McMahon: Lex. I works "better" the smaller the triangles are, so the LI is a compromise.
[12:59] Lucia Nightfire: you're now forced to have at least 1 min
[12:59] Jenna Felton: can you make eaxh side a two triangles?
[12:59] Lexbot Sinister: Really? Since what version?
[13:00] Qie Niangao: Thanks Kelly, all... have fun.
[13:00] Lucia Nightfire: idk, why I'm asking, heh
[13:00] Drongle McMahon: No - if they are that big, then you can't walk through them.
[13:00] Lexbot Sinister: i sometimes use the 0 triangles for a lazy lowest physics shape.
[13:00] Mona Eberhardt: Thanks Kelly.
[13:00] rcdsQueChatLog: Mona Eberhardt, you can read the log here:
http://rcds.nfshost.com/ques_view_chatLog.php?queOwner=llsl:Rex+Cronon&queName=chatLog&pg=1
[13:00] Drongle McMahon: I'll put it awat now.
[13:00] Kelly Linden: Thank you everyone.
Simulator_User_Group
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