Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.05.14

Simulator_User_Group
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== List of Speakers ==
Adamburp Adamczyk 	Duckie Dickins 	Fadeout Razorfen
Jonathan Yap 	Kelly Linden 	Kitto Flora
Levio Serenity 	Lexbot Sinister	Lucia Nightfire
Martinrj Fayray 	Nalates Urriah 	Qie Niangao
Rex Cronon 	Simon Linden 	Sovereign Engineer
Tankmaster Finesmith	Whirly Fizzle 	
== Transcript ==
[12:03] Simon Linden: Let's see, I can get things rolling with news ... we updated the main channel this morning with code that was on the RC channels
[12:03] Lexbot Sinister: love mesh... Whirly still got the pants on her head for me...
[12:03] Rex Cronon: hello yuzuru
[12:03] Simon Linden: The forums are here for all the read-me info and such : http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2013-05-13/td-p/2006485
[12:04] Whirly Fizzle: Yay! I hope Im wearing the alpha....... er yes..phew
[12:04] Simon Linden: The experience permissions project mentioned there isn't still open for everyone, but at least now the code's getting out there
[12:04] Simon Linden: err, make that "anyone"
[12:05] Simon Linden: There will be new server code going into the RC channels tomorrow, barring any last-minute issues. We're down to the wire testing this one but so far it all looks good
[12:06] Simon Linden: The interesting new stuff in that release is a set of LSL functions to process JSON data
[12:06] Martinrj Fayray: Nice!
[12:06] Simon Linden: That should make it a bit easier to talk to some external data sources and web services to hopefully do something new and interesting
[12:07] Levio Serenity: is the "advanced creator tools notification" group started by charlar linden still active? i haven't heard a peep in there about the new upcoming exp. changes.
[12:07] Simon Linden: I don't know the answer to that, Tiger
[12:07] Duckie Dickins: I'm still in that group but chat has never been enabled
[12:08] Simon Linden: If you're in the group and haven't heard anything, it's somewhere between dormant and dead
[12:08] Adamburp Adamczyk: charlar left ll i think?
[12:08] Levio Serenity: that was the group started for those of us interested in testing/using the new exp. functions. i was lead to believe we would get early access to the new functions.
[12:09] Qie Niangao: What are prospects of getting some more info about experience permissions? There's all kinds of speculation about it (as in, whether or not it will work on Mainland), so it would be very helpful to know a bit more when that's possible.
[12:09] Nalates Urriah: Well, the leader there is no longer with us...
[12:09] Simon Linden: I wasn't involved with that project or program, but the product guys are sorting out what happens next
[12:09] Duckie Dickins: some linden should use some database kung fu and take over that group since it's already established
[12:10] Whirly Fizzle: Its going to need viewer changes too right?
[12:10] Martinrj Fayray: There is no wiki page about experience tools, btw. : )
[12:10] Martinrj Fayray: (At least I couldn't find one)
[12:10] Levio Serenity: just was wondering if there was a new group i should be instead of that one that that the project is moving forward again : )
[12:10] Levio Serenity: *now that
[12:11] Simon Linden: Whirly -- I'm not sure about that. I don't think it needs anything new to use that functionality, as that's now in Linden Realms
[12:11] Whirly Fizzle: ahh right
[12:12] Lucia Nightfire: It'll probably be like alot of major changes that were handled by third parties. We'll get it, find a ton of flaws or lackings, but it'll be too late to change anything, lol.
[12:12] Simon Linden: I'm not sure about owning and implementing it, however ... and those are the fuzzy details still being sorted out
[12:13] Simon Linden: That's it for server news, so I guess the floor is open for questions or topics
[12:14] Lexbot Sinister: Has the work on new particles halted for the time being?
[12:15] Simon Linden: yes, in that we're not adding more new particles than what was recently added. The next step is getting that viewer code out the door, and that has been making small steps in the right direction
[12:15] Simon Linden: There was a blog about a new viewer release process, which is the fastest route for this to be released
[12:17] Simon Linden: I can't promise any dates but I personally would like to make a bug-fix version of the viewer available, which has some changes we put in earlier this year but hasn't been released as other things were in line
[12:17] Rex Cronon: r there going to be any ducks on the menu;)
[12:17] Lucia Nightfire: I made an update to https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SEC-1247 & also I have a repro for https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SEC-1264 if you want the details.
[12:17] Simon Linden: Once we've got that setup, and it looks stable, we can get the other stuff moving too
[12:18] Levio Serenity: what is the best avenue to request new features? ask while here? file a jira?
[12:18] Whirly Fizzle: Will the new Sunshine code be going into beta viewer or will that have its own RC viewer under the new release process?
[12:18] Tankmaster Finesmith: any word wet on when the new region handshake code will be available for sending interest list stuff?
[12:18] Simon Linden: yes and yes, Tiger
[12:19] Simon Linden: .. and I assume you mean a server feature, not something viewer-only. The developers who come here are focused mostly on the server side of things. I know some features need changes in both places too
[12:20] Levio Serenity: i suggested a new function here a year ago. but i'll try it again : ) i would like a feature thats like the opposite of llRezObject() that would let a script grab an item/copy of it that's rezzed out and add it into the contents of the item where the script is running
[12:20] Simon Linden: but discussing here is a good idea to see what others think about it and possibly refining the idea, or figuring out alternatives
[12:20] Jonathan Yap: Writing a jira is needed at some point
[12:21] Tankmaster Finesmith: what use case do you ahve for that, tiger?
[12:21] Nalates Urriah: In world vacuum cleaner...
[12:21] Jonathan Yap: We already have the jira to return objects
[12:22] Jonathan Yap: (Whirly, that was your cue)
[12:22] Levio Serenity: things like builders buddy could slurp up a build and add it into itself automatically. i have automated much of our system to make a project, box it, and put it into a vendor. i could fully automated the entire process if the scripts could pack stuff up
[12:22] Simon Linden: so it takes an in-world item into another object?
[12:22] Levio Serenity: yep, zactly
[12:23] Lucia Nightfire: self-replication made even easier, heh
[12:23] Jonathan Yap: Would you want a way to specify which prim it would go into in an object?
[12:23] Kitto Flora: That would seem to reduce a 2-step operation to one. Not much gain.
[12:23] Tankmaster Finesmith: id asume based on the UUID of the root prim? how would you deal with non linked objects?
[12:23] Simon Linden: hmmm, interesting ... thinking from the other side of it, I've always wanted a few magic buttons to pack up my parcel so I could switch builds easily.
[12:23] Lexbot Sinister: I'm scratching my head, looking for alternative uses for that...
[12:23] Levio Serenity: but it can be automated. the only way stuff can go in contents now is manually by a person doing it
[12:24] Lexbot Sinister: well, a parcel packer wouldn't be bad...
[12:24] Levio Serenity: people often have 1000s of breedable nests/eggs/etc. tools can be made to pack up, sort, organize etc
[12:24] Martinrj Fayray: You could put nocopy poseballs back into the dancemachine
[12:25] Duckie Dickins: good way for no copy items to get lost it sounds like too
[12:25] Lexbot Sinister: "saving" content really shouldn't take hours, like it does in some cases now.
[12:25] Martinrj Fayray: (Which contain animations) - of course nobody would seriously use that if it's not 100% secure
[12:25] Levio Serenity: well no copy items are always at a risk to be lost via the assert server anyways. this is just automating what can already be done manually
[12:26] Duckie Dickins: but I could see parcel packers as a good way for people to move their builds in events like where a landlord goes missing..doesn't pay tier and land gets taken back by the lab.
[12:27] Levio Serenity: yes in general would really help people keep things boxed up and not have so many items in top level inventory, which has to be a good thing
[12:27] Simon Linden: It would nice if a club owner could switch builds and decorations easily, for example
[12:27] Lexbot Sinister: well, more or less ANY build... not too long ago i spent a couple of hours putting scripts in city prims...
[12:28] Duckie Dickins: on the other hand it would be nice if group chat works every time you tried to use it. :)
[12:28] Fadeout Razorfen: guys, any thouts on https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-2576 ? thats crucial bug to me (sorry multitasking right now)
[12:28] Lexbot Sinister laughs
[12:28] Simon Linden takes a note on that
[12:28] Rex Cronon: sadly u can't see the contents of a object that inside your dir without rezzing it:(
[12:28] Kitto Flora: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-2576 = Permission Violation
[12:29] Levio Serenity: cant view other peeps jiras
[12:29] Duckie Dickins: boo
[12:29] Tankmaster Finesmith: "llCastRay fails with status code 0 "
[12:29] Fadeout Razorfen: llCastRay fails with status code 0
[12:29] Levio Serenity: i have another server-side request as well : )
[12:29] Kitto Flora: Please Remember - LL seriously broke Jira some months back
[12:29] Simon Linden: ???? - did you see Maestro's last question on that? I specific case where you know it's really failing would help a lot
[12:29] Fadeout Razorfen: oh i didn't yet
[12:30] Rex Cronon: it was "fixed" kito:)
[12:30] Kitto Flora: Its still broken here Rex.
[12:30] Simon Linden: s/I/A
[12:30] Fadeout Razorfen: and yep there was something on it's path
[12:30] Fadeout Razorfen: it randomly fails to detect stuff
[12:30] Tankmaster Finesmith: BUG-1259 is "llCastRay randomly fails to detect prims/land" which is why whirly had asked if ti was related
[12:31] Duckie Dickins: I think the lab got tired of invoking godwin's law in angry jira comments....so NO SOUP FOR YOU!
[12:31] Fadeout Razorfen: it fails on every sim
[12:31] Kitto Flora: Phoenix-Firestorm: Is there a reliable repro for that bug?
[12:31] Levio Serenity: timer() is great an all, but what would really be awesome is if there was an llTImedEvent(integer code, float delay) that would fire an event and there was a new event handler in scripts like event(integer code) that was called after delay seconds. basically let us do event driven programming above just having a single timer and trying to multiplex its behavior
[12:32] Tankmaster Finesmith: yes, the labs was tiered of rants in th jira, it made the jira unusable for those reports trying to get the relivent info for the issue
[12:32] Simon Linden: yeah, I can see where that would be useful
[12:33] Rex Cronon: sadlly the lindens seem to be so busy that they can't even fix exiting functions like llXorBase64StringsCorrect, so i don't know how could they get the time to add new ones:(
[12:33] Levio Serenity: immensely useful. i rolled my own system to multiplex a single timer and use it in pretty much every script i ever write now
[12:34] Kelly Linden: What would you do with a fixed llXorBase64StringsCorrect ?
[12:34] Kitto Flora: I multiplex timer all the time :) SOP.
[12:34] Rex Cronon: xor strings
[12:35] Levio Serenity: yea, but seems like would be pretty straight forward to add to the scripting system
[12:35] Rex Cronon: for better communication security between scripted objects and outside servers
[12:36] Kitto Flora: Multile timer() would be more useful. At present the number of scripts I have to put in an object tends to be set by the number of un-multiplexable timers that I need.
[12:36] Jonathan Yap: For a new timer function I suggest it have 2 parameters: time (which can either be a fixed time in the future or a repeating time) and the address of the routine to be called.
[12:37] Simon Linden: I don't think we use callback functions anywhere in LSL now
[12:37] Simon Linden: It's all events, right?
[12:37] Duckie Dickins: Always have used XTEA for secured object to server comms.
[12:37] Levio Serenity: a function reference? i figured that was above and beyond anything they would consider implementing. i would be happy with a single integer passed along
[12:37] Duckie Dickins: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/XTEA_Strong_Encryption_Implementation
[12:38] Kelly Linden: nope, LSL does not support function pointers or callback functions or custom handlers.
[12:38] Kitto Flora: llSetMultipleTimerEvent(integer number, float time);
[12:38] Fadeout Razorfen: oh ! i think i figured it out ! raycast fails under specific rotations
[12:38] Simon Linden: oh good - if you can add that info the jira, that would be perfect
[12:40] Levio Serenity: idc what you call it, but i think for simplicity and backwards compat. you dont tie it in with the existing timer() events and functions. make a new function and new event handler
[12:40] Kitto Flora: multitimer(integer number){ ....}
[12:42] Kitto Flora: But - these things can be scripted around. Unlike more serios problems......
[12:42] Levio Serenity: aaaaand while you're in there. if u could up mono script limits to 128K, that would be swell : D
[12:42] Simon Linden: uh huh
[12:42] Nalates Urriah: Who is working on the building in the JSON stuff?
[12:42] Tankmaster Finesmith: and add C# just cus...
[12:42] Kitto Flora: So, Simon - is anyone going to look at the ongoing border crossing problems? 10 years - and its still not fixed.
[12:42] Kelly Linden: Nal: hrm?
[12:43] Nalates Urriah: I see that some of the wiki stuff on JSON is blank pages. I was curious who was leading that project and could we entice them to talk to use here?
[12:43] Object: Hello, Avatar!
[12:44] Simon Linden: Kitto -- I think "less pain" is a more reasonable goal than "fixed" for border crossings. I know they've gotten better and worse over the years .. it's not a simple problem
[12:44] Nalates Urriah: us here?
[12:44] Kelly Linden: I am leading the project. The best wiki page right now is http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Json_usage_in_LSL
[12:44] Duckie Dickins: I haven't had very much problems flying through the blake sea recently....and I mean like 75 sim crossing without a crash....that's pretty good.
[12:44] Martinrj Fayray: Is there a wiki page for the experience tools?
[12:45] Kitto Flora: Simon - Some goal would be good. But is anyone kicking the ball?
[12:45] Nalates Urriah: Kellz, nIce. When I have specific questions this will then be the place to ask them, yes?
[12:45] Kitto Flora: Seas are likely easy - not so much scenery to download and crash your crossings.
[12:46] Kelly Linden: Nal: Sure.
[12:46] Nalates Urriah: Thx
[12:46] Levio Serenity: i'm curious what prompted the sudden JSON support. we've been working around a lack of that for years.
[12:46] Kelly Linden: Levio: I'm keen on improving the ability to interface LSL with the larger web. The previous maintenance version expanded the content-type support of http-in and http-out which ties in with this.
[12:47] Fadeout Razorfen: raycast always fails under rotation <0.20970, 0.20559, -0.68258, 0.66921>
[12:48] Lucia Nightfire: I have noticed less severe net timing spiking since last week.
[12:48] Lucia Nightfire: which is good, lol
[12:49] Simon Linden: That's good to hear, Lucy. Was that on a main-channel server?
[12:49] Lucia Nightfire: seems net timing is being maintained at a higher avg ms than before which is probably why
[12:49] Lucia Nightfire: its everywhere from what I see
[12:50] Levio Serenity: i recently started messing around with MOAP stuff, but i'm finding the prims MOAP textures don't rezz until i click on them, which kind of makes them useless for my intended purpose. is this a limitation in MOAP? or just a bug with things not rezzing in general that we seem to have since the interest list changes went out?
[12:51] Martinrj Fayray: That's vwr-17719
[12:51] Tankmaster Finesmith: levio, are you using FS?
[12:52] Levio Serenity: yes FS 4.4.0.33720
[12:52] Martinrj Fayray: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-17719
[12:52] Simon Linden: I haven't worked with MOAP recently so can't say
[12:52] Martinrj Fayray: It's an old bug - or maybe deliberately missing feature'
[12:53] Tankmaster Finesmith: i believe thats a FS spcific feature to not display a MOAP until you click on it, privacy issue
[12:53] Qie Niangao: Oh, that old bug... but I don't think that's what Tiger was describing.
[12:53] Levio Serenity: well MOAP is pretty useless if users just see a blank prim when they first TP in. they won't even know its supposed to be a MOAP
[12:53] Jonathan Yap: Is there some autoplay setting that has to be enabled on those moap textures?
[12:53] Tankmaster Finesmith: we went that rout to aid in preventing malicious use of MOAP
[12:53] Whirly Fizzle: It depends on a viewers settings if they have media autoplay enabled
[12:54] Adamburp Adamczyk: do many people still have it set to autoplay?
[12:54] Adamburp Adamczyk: a lot of tpv have that set off by default
[12:54] Simon Linden: I would hope not :P
[12:54] Whirly Fizzle: V3 autoplays by default still I think? FS does not. You have to enable it
[12:54] Levio Serenity: my tool i just wanted to be able to display a texture that's autogenerated from a URL off-world. it doesnt even have to be clickable/interactive
[12:55] Tankmaster Finesmith: the viewer dosnt really ahve any way of know what the content of the media is
[12:55] Whirly Fizzle: Since the Redzone fiasco, youll find a lot of people keep media off by default
[12:55] Lucia Nightfire: yeah, v3 plays by default its annoying
[12:55] Lucia Nightfire: indeed, but there are other worries with media too, esp if near peopel with illegal tpvs...
[12:55] Levio Serenity: its fine if it requires media to be active and all that jazz. but even activating auto-play and all that. i still have blank prims until i click it
[12:55] Fadeout Razorfen: if anybody needs stable raycast fail repro, i've put it in the center enar the timer
[12:56] Adamburp Adamczyk: yeah
[12:56] Whirly Fizzle: Hmm thats normal for MOAP you have to click it
[12:56] Adamburp Adamczyk: a least in some tpv you have the filter option too
[12:56] Levio Serenity: i'm just trying to understand if thats a bug or a limitation of MOAP
[12:57] Whirly Fizzle: I think normal?
[12:57] Qie Niangao: Tiger, it's not necessarily a limitation. you have to click it to *interact* with it, but a script-generated texture will load without clicking.
[12:57] Levio Serenity: if that is indeed a limitation, i think that's your answer as to why SL isn't integrated into the outside web world :)
[12:58] Kitto Flora: Hum thats set 'anyone takea copy' but pie Take A Copy is greyed out.
[12:58] Martinrj Fayray: Well the setting first_click_interact doesn't work, so it's either misdocumented or a bug
[12:58] Martinrj Fayray: Me thinks
[12:58] Martinrj Fayray: From what I've seen in the viewer it's never been implemented viewer-side
[12:59] Rex Cronon: problem is somebody can use such a texture to find the ip of who is looking at it
[12:59] Levio Serenity: so then my next server request is a means to somehow give LSL the url to an image and have it uploaded/displayed as a temp image for free
[13:00] Qie Niangao: Rex, yeah, that's indeed the problem, and that's why MOAP is pretty much useless in practice.
[13:00] Whirly Fizzle: Thats why people keep media off :P
[13:00] Lucia Nightfire: its not the text, its the interaction, you can do the same, just having voice enabled too
[13:00] Object: Hello, Avatar!
[13:00] Lucia Nightfire: *texture
[13:00] Rex Cronon: if the texture were to come through ll servers it wouldn't be a problem:)
[13:01] Tankmaster Finesmith: that would be a lot of bandwith going through LL processing all those videos of cats if they did it that way
[13:01] Rex Cronon: the sim could get texture end everybody would get texture from sim.therefore your ip would be safe:)
[13:01] Lucia Nightfire: lol
[13:01] Lucia Nightfire: your ip is never safe, lol
[13:01] Lucia Nightfire: never
[13:01] Simon Linden: yeah, that's an interesting idea but I can imagine the abuse potential is kinda high
[13:02] Qie Niangao: (sorry, gotta run, thanks Lindens and have fun all.)
[13:02] Sovereign Engineer: Hey Baker how's the name bug fixing/group ban things coming? :P
[13:02] Simon Linden: I have to go too
[13:02] Whirly Fizzle: Thanks Lindens
[13:02] Rex Cronon: lol. u think that meshes r nice to your bandwidth:)
[13:02] Simon Linden: Thanks everyone for coming today and the good chat and ideas
[13:02] Nalates Urriah: Thx Lindens
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