Commerce Office Hours/2009-10-14 16:00

* [16:02] Colossus Linden: Hello folks. Sorry for showing up a ocuple minutes late
* [16:02] Rachel Darling: ah good...did you check your hocky stick in at the door?
* [16:02] Rachel Darling: grins
* [16:02] Lane Luke: Hi Colossus
* [16:02] Rachel Darling: laughs
* [16:03] Siz Linden: hello
* [16:03] Colossus Linden: Glad to have you back Rachel
* [16:03] Rachel Darling: thanks, Colossus.
* [16:03] Lane Luke: hello to everyone I missed :)
* [16:03] Colossus Linden: We'll give everyone a couple more minutes to show up
* [16:04] Rya Nitely: Hi all
* [16:04] Pink Linden: hi all!
* [16:04] Lane Luke: hey Rya
* [16:04] Colossus Linden: Hello Lane, Rya, Pink
* [16:04] Jarnz Dench: hello :)
* [16:04] Lane Luke: Hi PInk, Siz, Grant,
* [16:04] Lane Luke: et al
* [16:05] Grant Linden: hello hello
* [16:05] Siz Linden: Hi
* [16:05] Pink Linden: well let's get started
* [16:05] Pink Linden: the hour flies by!
* [16:05] Siz Linden: it sure does
* [16:05] Colossus Linden: Agreed
* [16:05] Pink Linden: First, thanks all for taking the time to come and talk with us
* [16:06] Pink Linden: The topic today is Freebies, Demos, and "cheapies"
* [16:06] Pink Linden: Colossus and Meta have been digging deeply into this topic based on community feedback
* [16:06] Pink Linden: so I'm going to turn over office hours this month to Colossus to lead a discussion....
* [16:06] Pink Linden: so, take it away, Colossus!
* [16:07] Colossus Linden: Hi all. Thanks Pink
* [16:07] Carlos Uresti: hello everybody.
* [16:07] Colossus Linden: Agenda:
* 1. Issues
* - state issues
* - discuss issues
* 2. Solutions
* - present some options
* - accept other from crowd options
* - Discuss Options
* [16:07] Pink Linden: Hi Pandorah, Toysoldier, Ann, Rya, Sassy, Carlos, Jarnz
* [16:07] Toysoldier Thor: waves
* [16:07] Sassy Romano: waves
* [16:07] Pink Linden: Hi Lane, OMGWTF, Rachel
* [16:08] Rya Nitely: hello
* [16:08] Jarnz Dench: :)
* [16:08] Lane Luke: smiles and waves
* [16:08] OMGWTF Barbecue: hey! :D
* [16:08] Colossus Linden: We'll spend the beginning of our session discussing the issues. I'll present the issues as we understand them based on feedback from shoppers and merchants, and we'll see if we've got them down pretty well and what else everyone has to add
* [16:08] Rachel Darling: laughs
* [16:08] Colossus Linden: Then I'll lay out some options that we've thought of to create some discussion on how we can solve the problem.
* [16:08] [[User:[PM undefined|[PM undefined]]: 
* [16:09] Colossus Linden: Rachel and Ann, no spoilers :)
* [16:09] Rachel Darling: zips her lips
* [16:09] Colossus Linden: no, please speak up at our discussion periods.
* [16:09] Pink Linden: Hi Eris, and welcome
* [16:09] No room: to sit here, try another spot.
* [16:09] Eris Auxifur: hi there
* [16:09] Colossus Linden: So, first, I will jump into what we have seen are the issues with free and cheap items.
* [16:10] Pink Linden: (hi Twistit)
* [16:10] Twistit Saiman: (Hey :))
* [16:10] Colossus Linden: 1. They decrease the price that other merchants can charge within a category
* [16:10] Colossus Linden: 2. They hinder the shopping experience because a "sort by price" puts all freebies first
* [16:10] Colossus Linden: 3. They garner so much attention that residents are driven toward the freebies instead of quality, realistically priced items.
* [16:11] Pink Linden: hi Abraxxa and welcome
* [16:11] Colossus Linden: for us running the marketplace, they are a large percentage of transactions which have associated costs but no value, which means that that cost must shared by all users.
* [16:11] Abraxxa Anatine: Greetings :)
* [16:11] Colossus Linden: This morning's group summarized it well that they felt freebies had value but the marketplace was flooded with them
* [16:12] Colossus Linden: So, seeing these statements. Do folks agree. Are there some other issues surrounding freebies that you'd like to make sure is clear in our mind?
* [16:12] Lane Luke: nods, noting demos make up a sizeable portion of those freebies?
* [16:12] Pink Linden: (hi Couldbe)
* [16:12] Couldbe Yue: waves to pink ;)
* [16:13] Colossus Linden: Lane, we will definitely get to demos
* [16:13] Toysoldier Thor: if merchants feel that the market is flooded with these freebies... what did the survey say that the merchants felt was the value to them?
* [16:13] Colossus Linden: For the merchants here, if you're willing, I'd love to also know how many freebies you offer on Xstreet
* [16:14] Argus Collingwood: zero
* [16:14] Carlos Uresti: 0
* [16:14] OMGWTF Barbecue: i offer 0 freebies on xstreet.
* [16:14] Abraxxa Anatine: think i have two.
* [16:14] Toysoldier Thor: tried them once - waste of time - took them off
* [16:14] Colossus Linden: Toysoldier, the largest value that I understand is that merchants use them as advertising
* [16:14] Lane Luke: zero, but I also don'thave a big market page
* [16:14] Couldbe Yue: one - a coffee mug
* [16:14] Eris Auxifur: i had a few, because i thought there was so many freebies on it i had to have some to be seen
* [16:14] Rya Nitely: none because they always seem to attract bad ratings from griefers
* [16:14] Jarnz Dench: 1, optional control for our boats
* [16:14] Eris Auxifur: i wish freebies, demos, and quality merchandise had their own seperate sites.
* [16:14] Rya Nitely: for me they have no value putting them out as gifts
* [16:14] Sassy Romano: I had a demo that got more ratings than anything else lol, waste of time
* [16:14] Colossus Linden: A freebie get's a customer into the store or to view your other items on Xstreet and then, they hopefully buy some of your other items
* [16:15] Lane Luke: that was the hope
* [16:15] Toysoldier Thor: ohh i thought we were talking about freebies in Xstreet
* [16:15] Rya Nitely: but in practice I doubt it
* [16:15] Toysoldier Thor: r we talkin in general?
* [16:15] Sassy Romano: they rarely do that Colossus, freebie hunters hunt...freebies
* [16:15] Abraxxa Anatine: yep
* [16:15] Abraxxa Anatine: they come in the store.. for more freebies
* [16:15] Lane Luke: but it's changed to a freebie hunting zone
* [16:15] Rachel Darling: but the perception is that they build brand recognition. and they drop landmarks in folders
* [16:15] Toysoldier Thor: freebies in-world have value... in xstreet NO
* [16:15] OMGWTF Barbecue: like a product offered on a trial basis to convince someone to spend their money on your other stuff. except in practice, the freebie hunters don't come back, and the merchants get complacent and offer their lower quality items as freebies.
* [16:15] Colossus Linden: Yes Toysoldier, we are talking specifically about Xstreet
* [16:15] Xugu Madison: As a scripter, freebies have never seemed to help sell other products. Demos seem to improve confidence (more by presence; sales go up for things that have demos, but I don't see people take the demo a lot), but actual freebies people seem to just grab and move on
* [16:15] Couldbe Yue: well you should be able to tell us if that is true Colussus - you should know where people land on a merchants page and how many other items they look at - and you should even be able to tell us if they then grab the slurl
* [16:16] Ann Otoole: well certain hunts run certain ways attract high value potential customers.
* [16:16] Colossus Linden: Sorry if I didn't make that clear. We are discussing issues affecting the shopping experience on Xstreet
* [16:16] Rya Nitely: I have lots of freebies inworld but none on xstreet because of the ratings
* [16:16] Toysoldier Thor: thats what i thought
* [16:16] Ann Otoole: wonder if we can figure out a way to run hunts through xstreet mwuhahahah
* [16:16] Argus Collingwood: o.O
* [16:16] Lane Luke: someone is already trying that Ann
* [16:16] Rachel Darling: cringes at Ann's suggestion
* [16:16] Twistit Saiman: ...
* [16:16] Lane Luke: using a freebie to promote their inworld hunt
* [16:17] Abraxxa Anatine: buy the starting landmark for 0?
* [16:17] Abraxxa Anatine: chuckles
* [16:17] Rya Nitely: maybe freebies should be separated into it's own section
* [16:17] Toysoldier Thor: if the xstreet market is flooded with freebies... one person's freebie is a pebble in the sand - no value
* [16:17] Colossus Linden: Well, there are a lot of freebies being given away for there to be little or no gained value.
* [16:17] Pink Linden: welcome Vryl
* [16:18] Vryl Valkyrie: Hi :-)
* [16:18] OMGWTF Barbecue: seems like a lot of "freebies" on xstreet are stolen content or things reproduced without permission - textures/images from google image, sounds/gestures. licensed things that shouldnt be used. i tend to avoid anything free on xstreet unless i can verify it somehow.
* [16:18] Eris Auxifur: either seperate sections for freebies, or perhaps put a 'time limit on freebies', where they go stale and dissappear from the listings
* [16:18] Colossus Linden: Well, I want to make sure we understand the problem and then we'll move onto potential solutions
* [16:18] Rya Nitely: personally I'd be ok with seeing freebies removed from xstreet but some people use it to get feedback and recogntion
* [16:18] Rachel Darling: there are philanthropic people who give away freebies as a service. But a great many are out there with the intent to build brand recognition, whether they succeed or not. And they detract from the non-free items, because they're overwhelming the site
* [16:18] Vryl Valkyrie: 1 am for me but hi :-)
* [16:18] Colossus Linden: So, is there anyone who disagrees with the idea that there are too many freebies?
* [16:18] Ann Otoole: yea but there is a lot of ultra cheap stuff you xstreet folks aptly called race for the bottom
* [16:18] Colossus Linden: or with the idea of limiting them?
* [16:18] Pink Linden: yep let's hold off on solutions just for a couple mins
* [16:18] Colossus Linden: Are they causing any problems that we haven't covered?
* [16:18] Pink Linden: make sure everyone understands the whole set of issues
* [16:19] Colossus Linden: Thanks Pink
* [16:19] Twistit Saiman: But removing freebies will make people just sell them for 1l.. just as bad
* [16:19] Lane Luke: they're being used also to give bad ratings
* [16:19] Rya Nitely: yes, the bad ratings is my main problem
* [16:19] Lane Luke: and for only that reason
* [16:19] Toysoldier Thor: did the survey ask the merchants what the original purpose was for them to offer their valued creations for free?
* [16:19] Rya Nitely: none of my payed for items get bad ratings only my freebies
* [16:19] Colossus Linden: So, let me make sure I understand this. If you put up a freebie as a merchant, people will buy that freebie just to give it a bad rating?
* [16:20] Rachel Darling: yes, Toy -- for building brand recognition, to draw traffic to other related items
* [16:20] Colossus Linden: And how does that affect your other items or sales?
* [16:20] Rya Nitely: griefers
* [16:20] Colossus Linden: Or does it only affect sales of that freebie?
* [16:20] Couldbe Yue: lol you got it in one Colussus - it's cheap trolling
* [16:20] Lane Luke: yes Colossus, and I've seen people admit to doing just that on the forums
* [16:20] Ann Otoole: there are people in sl that bad rate just to be that way yes. i ignore them.
* [16:20] Jarnz Dench: the freebies we have tried are just pits for 1 and 2 ratings
* [16:20] Lane Luke: as a means to get back at the merchant
* [16:20] Pink Linden: ick Lane, that's awful.
* [16:20] Pink Linden: takes notes
* [16:20] Couldbe Yue: tbh I don't think it does affect freebie sales. bad ratings do affect full priced items though
* [16:21] Rya Nitely: and it's a gift, so it's a bit rude to look a gift horse in the mouth
* [16:21] Ann Otoole: and then there is 1 means good to some folks while number 10 is very bad
* [16:21] Lane Luke: agrees with Couldbe
* [16:21] Colossus Linden: Alright, it sounds like ratings is an issue for a future office hours. Let's stay on target on freebies though
* [16:21] Couldbe Yue: that's a problem too - culturally people have different attitudes to numbers. as i understand it 1 in asia is the best there is
* [16:22] Colossus Linden: So, I'm not hearing any complaints or additions to the issues as I presented them.
* [16:22] Carlos Uresti: it's not only buying a landmark for $0 it's introducing them into your experience. making them to look others in your community to share the freebie (demo). for us our freebie is immersing the user to the whole experencie of our brand. maybe on other areas work different but on sports it does help. regarding the ratings of the freebies, can the user that buys via xstreet get first to communicate with creator because at 1st point that the purpose to be known , so why put up a freebie if you can't support it also. that will stop the "automatic" bad rating and could help flag users exploiting it , too.
* [16:22] Vryl Valkyrie: personally I don't think freebies belong in the marketplace.. better to have a page that lists freebie locations inworld.. that's just my opinion of course.
* [16:22] OMGWTF Barbecue: think we're with ya, Colossus :)
* [16:22] Toysoldier Thor: as rachel stated... merchants typiclly use freebies to get their products in general noticed - a lost leader... something i suspect they dont need if they have more effective means to get their products noticed in xstreet. they are being desperate
* [16:22] Lane Luke: you don't need to buy a freebie to get a LM though - you should be able to get it off any other listing onthe merchant page
* [16:23] Colossus Linden: Thanks Carlos. Useful info
* [16:23] Rachel Darling: an opinion Toy; regardless, they're being used that way and they're overrunning the site.
* [16:23] Couldbe Yue: but most of those freebies aren't even worth the electricity used to deliver them
* [16:23] Colossus Linden: Thanks Vryl, we'll get to solutions very soon
* [16:23] Colossus Linden: So, to move on
* [16:24] Ann Otoole: actually the proliferation of freebies is a symptom of a lack of marketing capabilities. forget classifieds. you can't get to the top without huge sums that are laughable and suspect. so people turned to freebies and hunts. might want to look at it from a ratcheted way up level later on.
* [16:24] Colossus Linden: Xstreet is intended to provide a specialized shopping experience makes shopping and selling easier in many ways
* [16:24] Colossus Linden: This is why we use it
* [16:24] Vryl Valkyrie: The freebies do tend to clutter the marketplace and many commcial items are lost in the clutter, resulting in potential lost sales and revenue for both xstreet merchants and also linden Lab.
* [16:24] Toysoldier Thor: my thoughts too Ann
* [16:24] Vryl Valkyrie: commercial*
* [16:25] Colossus Linden: And we institute controls and features to improve that shopping experience and currently believe that the number of freebies and cheap goods are hindering that experience for shoppers and merchants
* [16:25] Rachel Darling: I think they also take away the likeliehood that freebie account holders will purchase lindens to buy items.
* [16:25] Rachel Darling: now they can kit out for free on freebies
* [16:25] Pink Linden: gets colossus a faster typewriter
* [16:25] Xugu Madison: Would LL consider running a freebie-only alternative to XStreetSL?
* [16:25] Colossus Linden: So, I've put together 5 options. I'll present all of those and then we'll open this back up for discussion of those
* [16:25] Vryl Valkyrie: lol@pink
* [16:26] Pink Linden: while he's doing that I want to preface
* [16:26] Colossus Linden: 1. Limit to free listings or listings under price L$X - Hard limit of 3 per merchant. Perhaps a monthly fee to list those 3 or to have a higher limit
* [16:26] Pink Linden: that in no way do we plan to control pricing
* [16:26] Colossus Linden: 2. Time Limit - add an incentive to remove cheap items. No item under L$X can remain listed for more than a month
* [16:26] Pink Linden: /end preface
* [16:26] Colossus Linden: 3. Marketing Enhancement. - Freebies and cheapies are used as a marketing tool. Just like listing enhancements they should be priced by the month. Make a monthly fee of L$99-L$2899 to list a freebie (just like listing enhancements)
* [16:26] Colossus Linden: 4. Freebie Marketplace - Separate freebies into a separate shopping experience which is designed to better advertise the items which are not free. - create a new advertising opportunity
* [16:26] Colossus Linden: 5. Removal - ban all freebies and all items below L$X
* [16:27] Colossus Linden: Now, I should add that I think that freebies do add some value, so I'm not pushing #5, but I think it is worth being in the discussion.
* [16:27] Argus Collingwood: what would the X limit be
* [16:27] Colossus Linden: So, please take a minute to read those
* [16:27] Argus Collingwood: in lindens
* [16:27] Lane Luke: at this point, I would not support #5 as well
* [16:27] Colossus Linden: thanks Lane
* [16:27] Abraxxa Anatine: I think a freebie only site is a bad idea
* [16:28] Colossus Linden: And please let us know what ones you think are good or bad ideas
* [16:28] Carlos Uresti: #1 , wouldn't support #4, #5.
* [16:28] Vryl Valkyrie: Colossus, in all due repect, if you enact solution # 1, you will kill xstreet. I think # 5 is a great solution and instead of banning freebies why not have a freebie box, where residents can list their SLURL to their inworld freebies.
* [16:28] Colossus Linden: How they would affect your businesses
* [16:28] Eris Auxifur: i like a combo of 1,2, and 3 IF you keep freebies on the main site, but i'd be okay with a 'freebie showcase' too
* [16:28] Colossus Linden: or ask questions
* [16:28] Abraxxa Anatine: it takes away the opportunity for people to see things that cost money that will catch their eye
* [16:28] OMGWTF Barbecue: i think a combination of #1 and #2 would be great.
* [16:29] Xugu Madison: I would say make a freebie only site, give it some time to see how well it pulls the clutter of XStreetSL, then re-examine
* [16:29] Vryl Valkyrie: A freebie box as in one page to list freebie locations.. this could work and it would take the clutter out of xst plus still give residents the opportunity to find frebies
* [16:29] Couldbe Yue: There is a difference between marketing freebies and community freebies. That's my only concern. People like Adriana Caligari used to have a lot of free scripts available as she was horrified at the rip off prices that some people were charging for what were either simple or available on the wiki scripts
* [16:29] Toysoldier Thor: i like #1 and #2
* [16:29] Vryl Valkyrie: #1 would be horrible and would drive most everyone to your competitors.. that's the harsh reality
* [16:29] Rya Nitely: how would you stop people from relisting after the time interval?
* [16:30] Rya Nitely: for option 2
* [16:30] Twistit Saiman: 2 and 3 are intresting.
* [16:30] Carlos Uresti: #2 time limit can be bugged into just replacing the asset and go again. #3 investing money for an area not explored wouldn't be so friendly on the seller. #1 could be implemented. if they see the advantage and gains of doing so can futher get involved in a $ enacementh freebie plan.
* [16:30] Abraxxa Anatine: #2 with automatic removal of items after a specified time. more work to list freebies would be a deterrant to pile a bunch of worthless stuff up there
* [16:30] OMGWTF Barbecue: #2 would be most effective, i think, because how many of the freebies on xstreet are things listed long ago and then forgotten about?
* [16:30] Lane Luke: I like the idea of time limits along with possibly a fee - combination of 2 and 3
* [16:30] OMGWTF Barbecue: they can be relisted if they are valid, active freebies.
* [16:30] Lane Luke: agree Abraxxa
* [16:31] Lane Luke: exactly -
* [16:31] Vryl Valkyrie: I also like 4
* [16:31] Colossus Linden: In the first session, #1 & #2 were said to be easily gamed
* [16:31] Twistit Saiman: *nods* agrees on Abraxxa and OMGWTF..
* [16:31] Abraxxa Anatine: if people want to take the time to relist something, then it's probably got some value
* [16:31] Rya Nitely: yes, people can relist under a different name and description
* [16:31] OMGWTF Barbecue: (call me barb.. hehe)
* [16:31] Vryl Valkyrie: If you keep freebies, then 4 sounds good
* [16:31] Colossus Linden: Just figure I'll give you guys some of the feedback from earlier folks as well :)
* [16:32] Twistit Saiman: *grins* ok, barb ;) thats easier
* [16:32] Abraxxa Anatine: relisting would be fine, it still means more work.. effort.. time...
* [16:32] Lane Luke: I lean toward #2 option, but #3 has possibilities - although I can't imagine the "average" merchant would want to spend too much money on listing fees
* [16:32] Couldbe Yue: on a separate relist they'd lose their ratings though which is a disincentive for them to do it
* [16:32] Rya Nitely: at least for me that gets rid of the griefers bad ratings
* [16:32] Rya Nitely: start fresh
* [16:32] Colossus Linden: Hey Vryl, any reasoning behind a limit of 4? I'd love to hear if you do
* [16:32] Rachel Darling: what about lumping them all into their own category of freebies and dollarbies, to get them out of the regular categories and stil make it easy for consumers to find the free items that are a service to some residents?
* [16:32] Vryl Valkyrie: Personally I think it's best to just have a page that lists inworld locations that offers freebies.
* [16:33] Abraxxa Anatine: if ratings on freebies are an issue, then disallow ratings on freebies
* [16:33] Abraxxa Anatine: they're free.. get one and see for yourself
* [16:33] Eris Auxifur: i hope we're including demos and 'landmarks for sale' with freebies lol
* [16:33] Pandorah Ashdene: having to relist freebies once in a while is a good handicap
* [16:33] Rya Nitely: I like that idea Abraxxa
* [16:33] Colossus Linden: Hey Lane, If there is not enough value for a merchant in a listing to warrant even L$99, then it may be detracting value from the Xstreet Marketplace
* [16:33] Rachel Darling: good point, pandorah
* [16:33] Abraxxa Anatine: if my freebies vanished, i wouldnt/ bother to relist them
* [16:33] Twistit Saiman: *nods*
* [16:33] Vryl Valkyrie: millions of even thousands of users offering freebies plus their alternate accounts.. does not rid the marketplace of clutter
* [16:33] Abraxxa Anatine: they're ancient and i should pull them down anyway .. in fact, lol i think i will do that
* [16:34] Lane Luke: 99L is great - 2899L? hmmm for a freebie?
* [16:34] Colossus Linden: Additionally, any listing and sale has costs, and currently a freebie listing and freebie sale brings in no value which means that cost needs to be covered and passed along to all of the merchants and shoppers paying for items.
* [16:34] Lane Luke: perhaps, so long as the marketplace doesn't remain cluttered
* [16:34] Toysoldier Thor: i like that freebies need to be re-listed after x days
* [16:34] Toysoldier Thor: and limited per merchant
* [16:34] Argus Collingwood: I like 5 lol
* [16:34] Abraxxa Anatine: i wouldn't even make the time frame a month
* [16:34] Abraxxa Anatine: 1-2 weeks then poof
* [16:34] Rachel Darling: listing templates would make it easier to relist them of course
* [16:34] Colossus Linden: L$99-L$2899 is the current range for other marketing efforts. In option #3, I view a freebie as a marketing tool, and hence, it should be priced as such
* [16:34] Vryl Valkyrie: Personally, I say kill the freebies and then we will see increased sales and revenue for LL and for SLmerchants on XST.
* [16:34] Lane Luke: sure, I think if you're truly using freebies as a marketing tool, you won't mind paying for that feature
* [16:34] Toysoldier Thor: banning them at $xL just means the new freebie level will be $xL + 1
* [16:35] OMGWTF Barbecue: im concerned that a lot of what i view as "freebies" are more like.. "cheapies". the amount of 5L items on xstreet is probably at least as many as 0L. so whats going to clean up that mess?
* [16:35] Pink Linden: exactly, toysoldier
* [16:35] Rya Nitely: the relisting is probably a good ida for all items after a period to get rid of forgottem items, off topic
* [16:35] Eris Auxifur: with the amount of freebies on xstreet right now there's realy not need to ever buy anything
* [16:35] Twistit Saiman: *nods* So true Toysoldier
* [16:35] Rachel Darling: that's pretty expensive though. Colossos. $50L and a time limit would probably do it for most of them
* [16:35] Abraxxa Anatine: treat items under 10L as freebies
* [16:35] Colossus Linden: Hey Rachel, so you're proposing a freebie category instead of freebie marketplace?
* [16:35] Vryl Valkyrie: Kill them and I'll pass you my custom made toxic waste to do the job. :-)
* [16:36] Rachel Darling: yes; a freebie category with a listing fee and it has to be renewed monthly would probably work well
* [16:36] Abraxxa Anatine: freebie category again hurts the sales opportunity
* [16:36] Rachel Darling: or a cheapie category
* [16:36] Abraxxa Anatine: people buy things on impulse
* [16:36] Rachel Darling: or both separately
* [16:36] Abraxxa Anatine: but they have to SEE them to get that impulse
* [16:36] Abraxxa Anatine: if you seperate the freebies, they will just look there
* [16:36] Vryl Valkyrie: Freebies kill sales simply because there are TOO many and it is impossible to control.
* [16:36] OMGWTF Barbecue: i would handle a freebie category by just never looking at it, never touching it. marketing opportunity FAIL.
* [16:36] Twistit Saiman: Yes, people would just switch to freebie marketplace/cat
* [16:36] Pandorah Ashdene: I would destinguish, two freebie categories, giveways - have to be relisted after a time window, promotional items - have to be paid for
* [16:36] Vryl Valkyrie: JUst list a page on XST so that users have a list to go inworld for freebie search.
* [16:36] Rya Nitely: LOL, a listing fee for freebie would be a way to kill them
* [16:36] Rachel Darling: some will; XStreet is also a service to consumers, remember
* [16:37] Vryl Valkyrie: A list of locations, not items.
* [16:37] Rya Nitely: not many people would want to pay
* [16:37] Abraxxa Anatine: specially the shady types rya ;)
* [16:37] Rachel Darling: some people need or want freebies. But the merchants should pay their share of the costs of the site
* [16:37] Twistit Saiman: pokes abrax, im.
* [16:37] Vryl Valkyrie: No one will pay, not many anyway.. better to kill them and dave the marketplace.
* [16:37] Vryl Valkyrie: save*
* [16:37] Rachel Darling: what about demos then, Vryl?
* [16:37] Colossus Linden: agreed Toysoldier, so we may need to consider those cheap items as well
* [16:38] Argus Collingwood: Demo cat
* [16:38] Jarnz Dench: what about making freebies non searchable? still there but have to be linked to get to them like in a listing. would help for demos and the such
* [16:38] Vryl Valkyrie: The people who want or need freebies can refer to the lost of inworld locations that offers them..
* [16:38] Rya Nitely: there could easlity be an exception for demos
* [16:38] Vryl Valkyrie: as for promos
* [16:38] Vryl Valkyrie: that's ok as long as they pay for an item enhancement
* [16:38] Vryl Valkyrie: but it must specify promo
* [16:38] Argus Collingwood: Demos are best vied in-world at the store IMO
* [16:38] Toysoldier Thor: lol Jarn.... i was gonna suggest that too
* [16:38] Jarnz Dench: hehehe
* [16:39] Vryl Valkyrie: promo not the same as freebie as long as they pay for an item enhancement
* [16:39] Sassy Romano: Rivan has an interesting option but he's shy *prods Rivan*
* [16:39] Argus Collingwood: enhasements mean ads
* [16:39] Rya Nitely: non searchable is a great idea for demos
* [16:39] Rachel Darling: one thought I had Colossos...after the meeting. If you move freebies/demos to their own category, and implement a sliding scale for commission based on the price of the item?
* [16:39] Toysoldier Thor: if freebies are used for marketing and advertising - place a 2L/week charge on items 10L or less... 1L/week for items 20L or less
* [16:39] OMGWTF Barbecue: im wondering.. isnt an in-world freebie better than one listed out of world, anyway? i've never gotten a freebie on xstreet and then gone to the shop where it came from. but lots of times i've gotten a freebie somewhere inworld and then perused the creators other work.
* [16:39] Argus Collingwood: what percentage of the merchants actually buy ads?
* [16:40] Pink Linden: Riven feel free to tak to me privately if you're shy..:::smiles:::
* [16:40] Vryl Valkyrie: freebies can be used as valid marketing tools but then they must be treated as such.. in otherwords, they should pay for an enhancement.. such as featured ad.. 999 L per month
* [16:40] Rivan Dressler: HA!
* [16:40] Toysoldier Thor: yup
* [16:40] Xugu Madison: Ads never seemed to do much for my sales outside of getting the initial first few :-/
* [16:40] Toysoldier Thor: i agree Vryl
* [16:40] Colossus Linden: Mind you, I am hoping that whatever we decide on, that it does reduce freebies. So, I am okay if some people would reduce their number of freebies or stop using them.
* [16:40] Ciaran Laval: right but demos are a different kettle of fish
* [16:40] Rachel Darling: but Vryl, then they'll want some kind of value for that money won't they? And they'll still be cluttering the regular categories?
* [16:40] Lane Luke: I agree Vryl, that has possibilities, but Colussus has already suggested a range
* [16:40] Toysoldier Thor: demos are a form of marketing too
* [16:40] Argus Collingwood: Vyrl they would never do that just do not allow freebies
* [16:41] Toysoldier Thor: not different
* [16:41] Colossus Linden: As I said, if they are not providing value to the merchants or the shoppers, then they are taking up space and making it more difficult for shoppers to find what they want to buy.
* [16:41] Vryl Valkyrie: Rachel, the value is called marketing and promotion.
* [16:41] Rivan Dressler: xstreet and freebies are great to hook new Second Lifers...a ton of scripts, trinkets, toys, etc all for nothing and improves their experience. Im not sure you want to lose that. thats all.
* [16:41] Toysoldier Thor: if u wanna give out a demo - get it in world
* [16:41] Vryl Valkyrie: it gives the merchant needed exposure
* [16:41] Rivan Dressler: kicks Sassy in the shin
* [16:41] Vryl Valkyrie: much more so than one can gain iwnolrd with classifieds
* [16:41] Vryl Valkyrie: inworld*
* [16:41] Eris Auxifur: the more i thin about it the more i think freebies should be kept inworld, perhaps a seperate site that is limited by 1, 2, AND 3 so it always looks smaller than xstreet, with MANY links back to xstrret, and institute minimum costs for all listings... as both a consumer and seller
* [16:41] Ciaran Laval: demos are different, they should only be available as an option from the main item but they are different to promos
* [16:41] Rachel Darling: which they can get for the same price by buying a featured item listing, at the prices that have been quoted
* [16:41] Pink Linden: Rivan, sassy, do I need to pull this car off the road and separate you two? ;)
* [16:41] Twistit Saiman: Yes, having them go to your inworld location for demo works better for advertisement aswell. Thats my experience.
* [16:42] OMGWTF Barbecue: i say slash-and-burn. delete them all, start over from scratch, with a time limit and possibly a limit on how many you can post.
* [16:42] Sassy Romano: clips Rivan round the ear and adds... he also suggested making freebies only available to avatars under a certain age maybe or some function around that
* [16:42] Rivan Dressler: no, we'll be fine once she gets in her helicopter...and I run
* [16:42] Rivan Dressler: :P
* [16:42] OMGWTF Barbecue: and wow, for a day or two, xstreet would be so pretty and clean!
* [16:42] Vryl Valkyrie: demos or promos .. whatever you want to call it.. if it is free, they must pay for an enhancement and consider it as auseful marketing tool
* [16:42] Toysoldier Thor: ok ... i need to get to a RL hockey game.... later all.... maybe i catch the end of this later tonight
* [16:42] Rachel Darling: laughs at omgwtf
* [16:42] OMGWTF Barbecue: hehe
* [16:42] Vryl Valkyrie: usefum
* [16:42] Lane Luke: I have to admit, I might like to see that Barb lol
* [16:42] Carlos Uresti: i would favor option #1 for sellers, so they can test the experience. if they futher see or want the gain of putting many freebies out there would need to go into enacement. i also have a question, what about people that really love their work and do it for fun? and just want to share it even as full some?
* [16:42] Pink Linden: bye Toysoldier and thanks for coming
* [16:42] Lane Luke: Nice to see you Toy :)
* [16:43] Rachel Darling: waves to Toy
* [16:43] Abraxxa Anatine: people who do it for fun are dangerous to those of us who do it for a living
* [16:43] Abraxxa Anatine: chuckles
* [16:43] Rachel Darling: laughs out loud
* [16:43] OMGWTF Barbecue: lol.
* [16:43] Twistit Saiman: grins
* [16:43] Toysoldier Thor: waves to all
* [16:43] Colossus Linden: Xugu, obviously, on a case by case basis anything can be the case, but overall, ads increase sales for our merchants quite a bit
* [16:43] Argus Collingwood: most new users do not use Xstreet for at least 30 days
* [16:43] Colossus Linden: I presented numbers earlier this year
* [16:43] Colossus Linden: but, let
* [16:43] Lane Luke: agreed Vryl, as I said earlier, if the merchant is truly using it as a marketing tool, they will have no problem paying for the feature
* [16:43] Colossus Linden: let's stay on topic of freebies
* [16:43] Xugu Madison: Colossus, good to hear! I did wonder if the market I was targetting towards (builders) just weren't very responsive to ads
* [16:43] Lane Luke: if they're simply flooding xstreet with freebies, they won't pay, and the clutter will go away
* [16:43] Ciaran Laval: Skin and hair sellers use demos because they work, it's not really the same as a freebie promo at all
* [16:44] Rachel Darling: if you can't give away demos, does XStreet become valueless to hair and skin vendors then?
* [16:44] Argus Collingwood: I have never bought a hair of skin DEMO for Xstreet have any of you others done that?
* [16:44] Rachel Darling: or is it a poor venue in general for them to begin with? You have to be in-world to try on hair anyway
* [16:44] Argus Collingwood: or*
* [16:44] Rya Nitely: no
* [16:44] Vryl Valkyrie: There needs to be a blanket quo, otherwise there is too much room for abuse.. kill freebies.. offer a page that lists inworld locations with freebies.. all free demos and promos as long as they pay for demo/promo enhancements and then it can be effectively considered as a marketing tool.. these are my suggestions :-)
* [16:44] Lane Luke: Colossus, would a freebie with a promo feature enhancement appear differently from say featured listings?
* [16:45] Rachel Darling: why not go to the store in world if you're already here?
* [16:45] Lane Luke: and would they then rank the same way as featured listings rank?
* [16:45] Pink Linden: argus I have paid $1L here and there for demo skins for the human avatar
* [16:45] Lane Luke: because of being an enhanced listing?
* [16:45] Colossus Linden: Agreed Lane, and we do want to remove clutter
* [16:45] Eris Auxifur: xstreet is soo annoying to use as it is though, somethng needs to be finalized and implemented as soon as possible
* [16:45] Colossus Linden: So, Demos is a good topic
* [16:45] Vryl Valkyrie: I don't think promo and demos should be ranked
* [16:45] Rivan Dressler: I guess they werent that good, huh pink? ;)
* [16:45] Colossus Linden: since some demos are free
* [16:46] Vryl Valkyrie: or rated
* [16:46] Argus Collingwood: Promo is just a "hook" term and has no* $$ connotation
* [16:46] Ciaran Laval: demos should be only available from the main listing, not as a separate listing
* [16:46] Pink Linden: Rivan, my human is shyer than you are :P
* [16:46] Carlos Uresti: because that's what xstreet givies into the experience. i would rather open 10 windows , click buy buy buy buy. revise the skins or hair and later go into store.
* [16:46] OMGWTF Barbecue: mumbles, "what Ciaran said!"
* [16:46] Colossus Linden: and when I say demo items, I am specifically referring to limited-functionality versions of items meant to provide a user a demo and associated with a fully functional version of that item at the full price
* [16:46] Lane Luke: nods
* [16:46] Vryl Valkyrie: anywaything free on XST should be considered a demo or promo and should pay for a special enhancement of 99L per month.. this is reasonable and fair.
* [16:47] Ciaran Laval: Exactly Colossues demo skins and hair have demo written all over them, they're useless as a promo
* [16:47] Rivan Dressler: but how do you manage that Colossus?
* [16:47] Colossus Linden: Xugu, I'd love to hear about your experience later. Perhaps we can work on ad opportunities for that market in the future. Please contact me privately.
* [16:47] Abraxxa Anatine: i can go with the 99L
* [16:47] Twistit Saiman: For demo's easy solution would be to beable to add them to the full item. make a button "Buy Demo".
* [16:47] Eris Auxifur: wow the money ll could make if they made every demo pay 100l is staggereing
* [16:47] Abraxxa Anatine: oooh
* [16:47] Abraxxa Anatine: good one twist
* [16:47] Twistit Saiman: But, that could be abused.. but still limit clutter.
* [16:47] Ciaran Laval: Agreed Twistit ideal solution
* [16:47] Lane Luke: that would be the best solution Twistit
* [16:47] Vryl Valkyrie: Everything can be abused but we have to start somewhere.. :-)
* [16:48] Rivan Dressler: yes, I see that as two items listed for one *shrugs*
* [16:48] Rachel Darling: 99L per month is reasonable, but I'd still rather also have them in their own category than cluttering the standard categories
* [16:48] Rachel Darling: and they're easier for freebie hunters to find that way too, so a service to them
* [16:48] Lane Luke: well they have their own category now right?
* [16:48] Lane Luke: click on freebies in the Marketplace
* [16:48] Vryl Valkyrie: Bandwidth is costly.. better to kill freebies and offer a listing as we do with XST ATM's terminals
* [16:48] Rachel Darling: I don't think they're forced into that category though, are they?
* [16:48] Colossus Linden: Lane, for now, no. I could look into other display options, but the more dev resources something takes, the longer it will take. Let me think about it.
* [16:49] Rachel Darling: Colossus -- even if you tax freebies with a listing fee -- how will that keep them from listing for 1L or 10L?
* [16:49] Colossus Linden: Ciaran, great point on demos and something we'll consider
* [16:49] Vryl Valkyrie: I'm sure once the clutter is gone, we will see a dramatic increase in sales and revenue for us all. :-)
* [16:49] Lane Luke: I guess I just want to understand if when a freebie is listed with a fee, whether 99L or something else, how it's going to pop up alongside other enhancements
* [16:50] Rachel Darling: or 25L?
* [16:50] Lane Luke: well don't know about that, lol
* [16:50] Ciaran Laval: There's more to clutter than freebies vryl, how long are items listed for, does anyone ever delete old items?
* [16:50] Colossus Linden: Rivan, how do I manage what?
* [16:50] Eris Auxifur: if ll makes all items at least 20l then everyone gets a slice of pie (linden)
* [16:50] Ann Otoole: i have old freebies deactivated but will never delete because of the no relist rule
* [16:50] Lane Luke: freebie hunters will more likely stop using xstreet and go back to finding them inworld
* [16:51] Ciaran Laval: You get charged a fee by Xstreet at L$10
* [16:51] Rivan Dressler: Col, it was directed at the suggestion to include the demo under the actual item. I suppose the included item would have to be 5L or less. thats all
* [16:51] Vryl Valkyrie: Demos still should have to pay for an enhancement in my opinion because it is still free.. I just see a demo as another way to say promo.. both are free marketing tools and can be used effectively, especially with a 99L monthly enhancement fee.
* [16:51] Argus Collingwood: baby steps ban freebie for now
* [16:51] Vryl Valkyrie: Ciaran, right now we are discussing freebies though :-)
* [16:51] Lane Luke: no, I can't agree with that point on demos
* [16:51] Vryl Valkyrie: one step at a time
* [16:51] Lane Luke: demos have a limited purpose - they're not promos
* [16:51] Rachel Darling: you'll immediately have listings move to 2L then, and create 2dollarbies I suspect
* [16:51] Ciaran Laval: Vryl a hair demo with demo all over it or a skin demo of the same is hardly the same as giving a way a full fully functional item
* [16:51] Twistit Saiman: *nods*
* [16:51] Pink Linden: +1 Rachel
* [16:51] Colossus Linden: Rachel, the value of a freebie is that many people shop for them. I can tell you that there is a large drop off from freebie purchases to dollarbie purchases
* [16:52] Rachel Darling: nods in thanks for that information
* [16:52] Colossus Linden: so, it doesn't solve the problem, but the marketing opportunity for a merchant is mroe witha freebie than witha dollarbie
* [16:52] OMGWTF Barbecue: i dont understand why people get their demos from xstreet. that makes no sense to me.
* [16:52] Colossus Linden: that being said, we do need to tackle that problem as it will come up.
* [16:52] Abraxxa Anatine: yeah but how many of the freebie hunters even have money in world?
* [16:52] Rachel Darling: but is that the merchants' perceptions?
* [16:52] Colossus Linden: We have already adjusted popularity rankings, so those should be more accurate now
* [16:52] Rachel Darling: that the value drops?
* [16:52] Rivan Dressler: I do Abraxxa
* [16:52] Genesis Pangaea: makes use of XStreet demos all the time. Great feature.
* [16:52] Argus Collingwood: agress with *OMG
* [16:52] Rya Nitely: a boat demo disapears after use
* [16:52] Sassy Romano: OMG.. because they don't have to go to any effort?
* [16:52] Rivan Dressler: and I sometimes look for the freebie silly item
* [16:52] Abraxxa Anatine: freebies are so plentiful now you can outfit a whole avatar quite well without spending a cent
* [16:53] Colossus Linden: which was a problem before and was pushing shoppers toward cheaper items.
* [16:53] Vryl Valkyrie: I guess if is a demo that expires, I can see that.
* [16:53] Lane Luke: popularity rankings are looking way way better these days Colussus - thanks to you all for changing that
* [16:53] Couldbe Yue: I get skin and hair demos because I loathe slogging around the grid looking in laggy shops. I'd rather try on a demo first and if I like it then go buy the real thing
* [16:53] Vryl Valkyrie: I have seen some demos like a ship that was only good for one use.
* [16:53] Abraxxa Anatine: well sure i mean everyone will take a freebie if it has value but there are some people who refuse to pay for anything in this "game"
* [16:53] Vryl Valkyrie: Or skin with ugly letters on them
* [16:53] Vryl Valkyrie: so I can see that, good point
* [16:53] Abraxxa Anatine: who feel entitled to free stuff just for gracing us with their presence :)
* [16:53] Ciaran Laval: freebie hunters won't be looking for demos as Colossus describes a demo as it has no long term value, only people who want to pay will do that. If we could have a good system here for trying on clothes people would take that option too
* [16:53] Vryl Valkyrie: as long as it would fall under real guidelines of demos then so that it cannot be gamed
* [16:54] Lane Luke: I have no problems with demo listings, I would just like to see them attached better to the full listing
* [16:54] Colossus Linden: Thanks Lane
* [16:54] Twistit Saiman: That was what i was aiming for Vryl 
* [16:54] Abraxxa Anatine: that's briliant.
* [16:54] Argus Collingwood: I agree with Lane
* [16:54] Ciaran Laval: agreed Lane, it shouldn't be a different listing
* [16:54] Abraxxa Anatine: and easier than finding something yhou like and having to look for a demo to match it
* [16:54] Couldbe Yue: well 50% of the avs inworld in a given month don't spend even 1 linden - but I bet an awful lot of them go shopping on xsl
* [16:54] Vryl Valkyrie: If demos were allowed, the tos could be amended to specify what exactly a demo is.. for example
* [16:54] Abraxxa Anatine: makes a hellalotta sense
* [16:54] Ciaran Laval: agreed Vryl
* [16:55] Lane Luke: exactly Abraxxa - if you find a hair style you're interested in, then you have to resort to find the demo etc.
* [16:55] Colossus Linden: So, we've got about 5 minutes left
* [16:55] Ann Otoole: there will be some of the oldbies and anti capitalists that scream about not being able to give their stuff away anymnore
* [16:55] Lane Luke: hmmm don't we know what demos are?
* [16:55] Colossus Linden: We'll get some last thoughts in and I'll summarize
* [16:55] Vryl Valkyrie: No Lane, we need legal definitions
* [16:55] Lane Luke: lol
* [16:55] Lane Luke: legal definition of demo
* [16:55] Lane Luke: k
* [16:55] Vryl Valkyrie: that's right
* [16:55] Colossus Linden: Agreed Ann, but they can still give away whatever they want in-world
* [16:56] Vryl Valkyrie: so that it is not abused
* [16:56] Ciaran Laval: People will try and game it Lane but we all know what a demo really is
* [16:56] Eris Auxifur: (unrelated but c'mon now you have to link inworld accounts to xstreet and throw away the terminals)
* [16:56] Colossus Linden: As I said, we're trying to make Xstreet a specialized shopping experience
* [16:56] Sassy Romano: "if you find a hair style you're interested in, then you have to resort to find the demo etc." umm, no, newbies just ask the wearing avatar if they can also have a free copy of that copybotted hair (*ducks and runs*)
* [16:56] Lane Luke: okay, guess I haven't thought that far ahead as to how demos can be abused
* [16:56] Vryl Valkyrie: Lane doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that
* [16:56] Lane Luke: excuse me?
* [16:56] Argus Collingwood: o.O
* [16:56] Colossus Linden: also, if you are willing to give free items away when others foot your costs, but aren't when you are asked to cover the costs yourself, then you don't really believe in giving those items away
* [16:57] Abraxxa Anatine: i agree with that also
* [16:57] Twistit Saiman: True
* [16:57] Colossus Linden: Okay, I shouldn't say you don't believe in giving those items away, but you should be willing to cover the costs at least :)
* [16:57] Rya Nitely: I'm waiting for that office hour too, Eris
* [16:57] Abraxxa Anatine: if there's no value in the item.. you wont pay to list it
* [16:57] Lane Luke: good point Colussus
* [16:57] Colossus Linden: Okay
* [16:57] Abraxxa Anatine: it's a ad fee.
* [16:57] Lane Luke: yep
* [16:57] Colossus Linden: so, we agree on the issues
* [16:57] Abraxxa Anatine: people will be more likely to list things they are proud of if they are paying for that
* [16:57] Colossus Linden: This morning's group leaned toward #3 and #4
* [16:57] Sassy Romano: but a free item can have a lot of value to the recipient but not the creator *shrugs*
* [16:57] Rachel Darling: I guess I'd just like to say that if we can't also resolve the issue of dollarbies and 10L-bies with a listing fee for freebies, I'd probably vote to get rid of freebies altogether. The clutter isn't limited to freebies. It's items under say, 50L as well.
* [16:58] Vryl Valkyrie: Thanks Colossus and Pink for the meeting.. very productive... I must go soon... 2 am for me.
* [16:58] Colossus Linden: I feel like this group leaned toward #1, #2 and #3 in some combination
* [16:58] Pandorah Ashdene: I would vote for 1. a timelimit for 'giveways', 2. a small fee for promos/demos
* [16:58] Ciaran Laval: Anything below the cost of where a sale incurs an xstreet fee for that sale should have some sort of listing fee, with the exception of real demos
* [16:58] Pink Linden: Vryl, have a good night
* [16:58] Pink Linden: thank you for coming
* [16:58] Abraxxa Anatine: i like the time limit quite a bit.
* [16:58] Ciaran Laval: Bye Vryl, nice to see you
* [16:58] Colossus Linden: People are concerned about demo items but I have not yet heard anyone say it would be a real problem for their business
* [16:58] Carlos Uresti: take care vryl.
* [16:59] Abraxxa Anatine: i direct people to my store for demos when there are demos
* [16:59] Siz Linden: bye vryl
* [16:59] Ciaran Laval: How many people have attended who sell skins or hair?
* [16:59] Vryl Valkyrie: Take care everyone.. Ann, Ciaran and everyone else :-) Ciao
* [16:59] Twistit Saiman: *nods* time-limit. and the buy demo feature would just remove alot of clutter because you can combine 2 listings.. so yeah.
* [16:59] Colossus Linden: And it does sound like everyone is in favor of us taking some action
* [16:59] Vryl Valkyrie: Bye Siz :-)
* [16:59] Lane Luke: I don't have demos, but I don't see them in the same light as freebies
* [16:59] Twistit Saiman: Oh yes, action is needed ;)
* [16:59] Lane Luke: yes please Colussus :D
* [16:59] Xugu Madison: Thanks for hosting Pink & Colossus!
* [16:59] Colossus Linden: hanks All. Please contact me on the Commerce forums if you would like to chat with me more (or in-world, but commerce forums gives me a place to track in private messages)
* [16:59] Lane Luke: umm Colossus (sorry can't type today)
* [16:59] Ciaran Laval: If I'm still awake in four hours can I come again or will Pink throw things at me?
* [17:00] Argus Collingwood: .lol
* [17:00] Pink Linden: Ciaran I never get enough of you
* [17:00] Lane Luke: lol depends if you want her to or not
* [17:00] Twistit Saiman: *nods* and thanks for hearing us 
* [17:00] OMGWTF Barbecue: Pink will probably throw things, but thats only more reason to show up.
* [17:00] Colossus Linden: Thanks All
* [17:00] Eris Auxifur: what is in four hours? :)
* [17:00] Argus Collingwood: AAAAAWWWWWWW
* [17:00] Couldbe Yue: Ciaran, you are scary - got to sleep
* [17:00] Colossus Linden: Everyone have a good night. Maybe I'll see some of you again at 9pm
* [17:00] Argus Collingwood: tyty
* [17:00] Ciaran Laval: Sleep is for the weak Couldbe
* [17:00] Grant Linden: take care all!
* [17:00] Pink Linden: we will post a blog post summarizing the discussions shortly
*