Bug triage/2007-07-23/Transcript

Transcript of Rob Linden's office hours (guest host Aric Linden):
	Aric Linden: 	Let's get started, shall we?
	Soft Linden: 	Or not :)
	Bridie Linden: 	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Bug_triage/Monday_Agenda
	Soft Linden: 	Sure!
	Squirrel Wood: 	before christmas.....
	Dale Glass: 	Added a "teleport to avatar" button to viewer
	Squirrel Wood: 	2107
	Wyn Galbraith: 	Daniel has a cornfield.
	Wyn Galbraith: 	So you'd be sending people to Daniel.
	Aric Linden: 	The first one I see is vwr-1250
	Aric Linden: 	is that correct?
	Bridie Linden nods 	Bridie Linden nods
	Soft Linden: 	VWR-1250
	Soft Linden: 	Unfortuantely, the URLer is case-sensitive.
	Squirrel Wood: 	first one I have to agree. takes aaaages for textures to fully rez
	Squirrel Wood: 	the client loads all the lower res ones but mostly skips the final pass
	Daedalus Young: 	a good while ago, you could focus your cam on a texture to give it higher priority, but that doesn't seem to work anymore either
	Aric Linden: 	Well, we can look at it, I'm not sure it's not a timing issue
	Soft Linden: 	I think initially we thought this was just slowness in repopulating all the sim caches after the 1.18 release...
	Soft Linden: 	But there does seem to be something with avatars specifically.
	Saijanai Kuhn: 	speaking of slow av atar rezzing
	Squirrel Wood: 	Well, I have been examining the textures in the client cache after the client was done "loading" them. over 90% of them were still very blurry.
	Aric Linden: 	blurry in cache?
	Aric Linden: 	that's interesting
	Ryozu Yamamoto: 	We sure this isn't a (re)compression issue?
	muerte Zenovka: 	a
	Soft Linden: 	Squirrel - how are you looking at them in the cache?
	Dzonatas Sol: 	texture reloads?
	Squirrel Wood: 	there is a wiki page that describes how textures are stored in the cache
	Squirrel Wood: 	so I programmed me something that puzzles together the pieces
	Squirrel Wood: 	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Texture_cache
	Wyn Galbraith: 	Clever Squirrel.
	Soft Linden: 	I wouldn't think it would cache an incompletely loaded texture. If that'st he case, there could be a real problem there. Could you maybe add some notes to the JIRA about what you did?
	Squirrel Wood: 	I might just go and put the whole vb project files on jira if you want.
	Benja Kepler: 	that would be great, Squirrel!
	Aric Linden: 	That'd be fine, Squirrel, thanks.
	Aric Linden: 	Once you've done that, we'll look at it internally and try to see whatup/
	Wyn Galbraith: 	Have a nice fall, Tree?
	Squirrel Wood: 	kk
	Soft Linden: 	Thanks, Squirrel :)
	Aric Linden: 	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1096
	Aric Linden: 	This is an interesting issue.
	Aric Linden: 	I personally appreciate the effort done here.
	Aric Linden: 	I think we should import this and look at it. Anyone else?
	Bridie Linden nods 	Bridie Linden nods
	Daedalus Young: 	restrict spatialized sound apparently causes it
	Daedalus Young: 	if so, it's easy to repro
	Aric Linden: 	/nods
	Dale Glass votes for import 	Dale Glass votes for import
	Soft Linden: 	Sure. Definitely want to see if it's related to other llPlaySound problems that have been harder to repro. llPlaySound is pretty broken overall right now (as opposed to llTriggerSound which is fine for some reason)
	Tree Kyomoon: 	/just got oriented...I think I had a concussion there
	Bridie Linden: 	is it Major?
	Aric Linden: 	yep. that's what I was thinking too soft
	Aric Linden: 	Bridie, i think it's major and should be associated with the other LLPlaySound issues
	Bridie Linden: 	kk
	Aric Linden: 	VWR-728
	Dzonatas Sol: 	part of a meta issue?
	Aric Linden: 	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-728
	Aric Linden: 	This is interesting. It does seem part of a meta issue.
	Aric Linden: 	different versions, different OS versions, and different cards.
	Wyn Galbraith: 	Interesting.
	Aric Linden: 	Hold on, i'd like to look at the crash report that's attached.
	Squirrel Wood: 	the voice client tends to freeze occassionally for 10s to 1.5 minutes and during that time uses 100% cpu time
	Dale Glass: 	I run Linux here and never seen that
	Dale Glass: 	wonder what's the difference
	Saijanai Kuhn: 	I've seen that with the voice client recently on MacOS X also
	Soft Linden: 	The log is worth a look, but on the whole this issue doesn't have anything that helps reproduce it for such a wide variety of platforms. Of the few reporters in there, there's a Mac, Windows, and Linux user, all with different hardware.
	Aric Linden: 	/nods and different versions of SL too
	Squirrel Wood: 	the voice client also has a major memory leak. it eats up like 1.2 gbyte in memory and more
	Aric Linden: 	I'm not sure we can do much with this.
	Wyn Galbraith: 	There must be some constant in there.
	Ryozu Yamamoto: 	Need more than a single log
	Aric Linden: 	Squirrel, I think we'll be fixing the memory leak
	Aric Linden: 	I"m not sure we can do much with this.
	Soft Linden: 	Would just ask for more logs on this one, close it to need-more-info
	Daedalus Young: 	I've had several problems on my Mac too in 1.17.0, but that was all fixed in 1.17.3
	Wyn Galbraith nods, "Yes see what's the same in each log. 	Wyn Galbraith nods, "Yes see what's the same in each log.
	Aric Linden: 	shall we move on?
	Saijanai Kuhn: 	remember always give a nice long-inwded comment so people know you're actually doing something. "Closed need more info" sounds more like "leave us alone"
	Soft Linden: 	Ya
	Dzonatas Sol: 	yes... resolve/need more info
	Aric Linden: 	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-199
	Dzonatas Sol: 	llTargetOmega hasn't been working for me since 1.17
	Dzonatas Sol: 	no matter what speed... something broke
	Ryozu Yamamoto: 	Target Omega fails to send an update to the client in child prims, aye
	Aric Linden: 	I know there are changes to llTargetOmega being worked on right now as part of the Havok upgrade
	Ryozu Yamamoto: 	This isn't a physics engine problem though ARic
	Ryozu Yamamoto: 	It's a matter of the sim sending an update when prim properties change
	Dzonatas Sol: 	it is more server side?
	Soft Linden: 	Technically, that's an invalid rotation, though.
	Aric Linden: 	But that part of the code is being looked at concurrently
	Daedalus Young: 	it seems it's more or less duped by SVC-54, which does have a LL ID
	Aric Linden: 	I'd be happy to have this assigned to me and I can discuss it with someone in QA
	Ryozu Yamamoto: 	It's not about what rotatin is used either, doing -anything- that would send an update to the client will cause the llTargetOmega change to take effect. llSetPos, llSetRot, llSetText, etc.
	Dzonatas Sol: 	Would be nice to know if there is a viewer portion we can fix for now
	Soft Linden: 	llTargetOmega requires an axis, and <0.0, 0.0, 0.0> isn't an axis. Still - the intent of the 0 is probably clear enough that we could import this as a JIRA to special case zero rotations.
	Aric Linden: 	I know that the llTargetOmega code just had changes made to it last week. I'd like to see if this is covered in those changes
	Able Whitman: 	There is a viewer component to llTargetOmega, but if the problem is that the viewer isn't being send an object update, there's really nothing viewer-side you can do to fix the bug.
	Soft Linden: 	Ya.
	Aric Linden: 	Soft, I'll leave it up to you...
	Wyn Galbraith: 	There should be some error recovery for invalid entries, correct?
	Soft Linden: 	Okay - can steal this one
	Wyn Galbraith wonders if it got ignored since it was invalid. "I don't know enough LSL yet to know."	Wyn Galbraith wonders if it got ignored since it was invalid. "I don't know enough LSL yet to know."
	Squirrel Wood: 	the texture loading bug... shall I just attach the vb project to the existing vwr-1250 or create a new issue?
	Soft Linden: 	Squirrel - go ahead and use the same one
	Ryozu Yamamoto: 	As for MISC-199, I'd say that's a duplicate of svc-54 then
	Aric Linden: 	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1748
	Aric Linden: 	moving on.
	Soft Linden: 	Ya, 54 is a dupe.
	Soft Linden: 	er 199 is, rather
	Dzonatas Sol: 	1748 is the hybrid.. half internall half external
	Aric Linden: 	This is interesting. Same topic came up recently in QA
	Aric Linden: 	I'd like to go ahead and import this and include it in that conversation.
	Dzonatas Sol: 	Tofu said he would review the patches, but haven't heard word lately
	Aric Linden: 	no promises on fixing, but it'd be good fuel for our discussion
	Soft Linden: 	Is the patch attached to that issue? We can't fish patches off a remote site/repository. It doesn't let us demonstrate that we took reasonable precaution about ensuring license.
	Soft Linden: 	On that issue, Tofu said he was confused about the patch location.
	Dzonatas Sol: 	I'll bundle the patches together and post it to that jira even thogh they all originated either internal or frmo jira itself
	Soft Linden: 	Cool. That makes it easiest :)
	Aric Linden: 	Thanks.
	Aric Linden: 	are we on to 1061?
	Bridie Linden: 	is this the one you picked up soft?
	Soft Linden: 	VWR-1061 ?
	Soft Linden: 	Ya, snagged that this AM.
	Bridie Linden: 	looks like yes
	Dzonatas Sol: 	1061 was previously imported, but the fix didn't get the #include
	Bridie Linden: 	Got it on our list.
	Soft Linden: 	Will double-check it, find out what happened.
	Aric Linden: 	then it's https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1872
	Aric Linden: 	/nice turnout for a triage, btw. thanks to everyone for attending.
	Wyn Galbraith loves bugs. 	Wyn Galbraith loves bugs.
	Ryozu Yamamoto chuckles 	Ryozu Yamamoto chuckles
	Dale Glass: 	more specifically, squishing them? :-)
	Squirrel Wood: 	Ta! All uploaded
	Soft Linden: 	That one looks kind of hairy.
	Wyn Galbraith: 	Squishing is for the programmers, finding them is for QA ;)
	Saijanai Kuhn: 	here's a bug that just popped up again. The browser gets a double-URL message
	Saijanai Kuhn: 	when I click on the box
	Daedalus Young: 	VWR-1872
	Daedalus Young: 	try now
	Daedalus Young: 	that's a bug in the box
	Saijanai Kuhn contemplates a new toy for SL scripters: Bug in a Box... 	Saijanai Kuhn contemplates a new toy for SL scripters: Bug in a Box...
	Boroondas Gupte: 	lol
	Daedalus Young: 	now available for only L$10
	Aric Linden: 	It'd be nice to have some steps for 1872, I think, but I would defer to Soft on this
	Soft Linden: 	Nicholaz' fix looks like a bit of a band-aid, but the fact that it emits something to the log instead of crashing could be an improvement. Would have to have someone test and ensure that doesn't just push the crash off elsewhere.
	Soft Linden: 	If you wanted, could import that and write up a reasonable set of tests for it.
	Aric Linden: 	yep. that makes sense. I'd also like to try to repro just the crash inhouse
	Aric Linden: 	Soft: that's perfect. let's do that.
	Able Whitman: 	I think the lack of repro steps is due to the fact that this crash is fiendishly difficult to consistently repro
	Soft Linden: 	Yeah. Don't envy the task of repeatedly recreating a ginormous trash folder for it!
	Ryozu Yamamoto laughs. 	Ryozu Yamamoto laughs.
	Aric Linden: 	/grins
	Aric Linden: 	it's all in a days life.
	Aric Linden: 	the thing is, tho, that makes me wonder how urgent the fix is.
	Aric Linden: 	I like Soft's plan tho and think we should move on
	Able Whitman: 	Well, it *is* a crash, so it should be fairly urgent even if it's not one of the most common crashes
	Ryozu Yamamoto: 	Bandaid: Empty trash more often ;)
	Saijanai Kuhn uh-oh... 	Saijanai Kuhn uh-oh...
	Aric Linden: 	hmm. Able, I agree in theory, but you have to prioritize which crashes you're going after when you have limited resources
	Aric Linden: 	anyway, we'll test it some and see what turns up. next up
	Aric Linden: 	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1859
	Dale Glass: 	wow, I just looked at my trash. It's got about a landfill worth :-D
	Able Whitman: 	Oh sure, I completely understand. I just mean that the severity of a bug affects its priority, that's all.
	Dale Glass: 	will try to empty later and see if that crashes
	Daedalus Young: 	1859 is under the "Patches" header in the triage wiki, but it only has a crash log, which isn't technically a patch, is it?
	linux soda machine Mark II v1.05: Menu timed out. 	linux soda machine Mark II v1.05: Menu timed out.
	Aric Linden: 	unless we can automagically make crash logs become fix files.
	Aric Linden: 	If we can figure that out, I think we should change products.
	Saijanai Kuhn: 	as long as newbies (like me) forget to empty their trash at all, it should never happen
	Soft Linden: 	Naw, but if that's really about a proxy not showing the ToS, that's a 10 second test and a legitimate bug.
	Squirrel Wood: 	the one crash that I want to be addressed is sim related and has been abused by the P. Nigras yet again today to crash sims. ^^
	Aric Linden: 	I think we may've fixed this internally and have not yet updated the linux release.
	Ryozu Yamamoto: 	>_<
	Wyn Galbraith never empties her trash, might be something valuable in there ;) 	Wyn Galbraith never empties her trash, might be something valuable in there ;)
	Aric Linden: 	worth importing and discussing internally, I think. Soft?
	Soft Linden: 	Teeny favor, Squirrel? Is best not to mention griefer groups by name. Just gets them publicity they enjoy, and fuels them. The more folks who pass that on, the better, 'til we seal up all the holes they use.
	Squirrel Wood: 	k
	Soft Linden: 	Sure, Aric
	Wyn Galbraith: 	Good idea Soft.
	Saijanai Kuhn there goes the anti-griefer du jour T-shirt idea 	Saijanai Kuhn there goes the anti-griefer du jour T-shirt idea
	Saijanai Kuhn: 	would have made a fortune
	Soft Linden: 	Hee
	Dale Glass: 	If anybody has a list of holes to seal, I'd be interested, btw
	Aric Linden: 	next up https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1857
	Aric Linden: 	This is another topic that's been kicked around internally of late.
	Aric Linden: 	I don't remember where we landed on it, but I know it's been discussed.
	Soft Linden: 	Might link it to the JIRA for that discussion if there is one
	Soft Linden: 	Only down-side I see is the possibility of caching a texture that actually didn't upload properly, and building content relying on a broken/incomplete asset
	Wyn Galbraith: 	I haven't seen that one and uploaded textures last night.
	Ryozu Yamamoto: 	I'm not too fond of that idea... I'd rather get my uploaded texture from the asset server to know just what the asset server is sending down
	Soft Linden: 	I mean, I know I've had incomplete uploads that still registered as textures in inventory. And as Ryozu says, if it had gone straight to the cache, I wouldn't have spotted that.
	Dale Glass agrees with that 	Dale Glass agrees with that
	Boroondas Gupte agrees with Ryozu 	Boroondas Gupte agrees with Ryozu
	Able Whitman: 	I'm split on the issue.. On the one hand, I like the idea of having textures immedaitely available, but being able to verify the texture being pushed down is the right one is important.
	Wyn Galbraith: 	I've experienced an incomplete upload and had to load the texture again, was a sculpt map. But since I crashed at the same time I figured that was it.
	Jansen Miles: 	Have the asset server send just a hash for the texture and compare it to the local hash. Then you know it's okay without incurring the bandwidth.
	Boroondas Gupte: 	sounds good
	Dale Glass: 	sounds good to me too
	Aric Linden: 	/here's my suggestion, why don't we add that as an annotation to the issue, import it and see what the internal devs think?
	Ryozu Yamamoto: 	Sure
	Soft Linden: 	Sounds like a plan!
	Saijanai Kuhn: 	howabout a genuine "sandbox" flag, where it happens ONLY in a sandbox utnil better tested?
	Aric Linden: 	There' may be something that we don't have visibility into here.
	Dzonatas Sol: 	it says sandbox patch, so maybe the intention was to try it in teh sandbox viewer first
	Ryozu Yamamoto: 	Aye, probably
	Aric Linden: 	maybe, but we've discussed it internally and perhaps the hash compare is a good solution that we haven't considered.
	Saijanai Kuhn: 	sure, I meant create a "sandbox flag" so that it only happens in sandboxes so no harm, no foul if something gets kursmuggled...
	Aric Linden: 	hmm. is kursmuggled a technical term? ;-)
	Saijanai Kuhn: 	would be useful for other fixes as well
	Wyn Galbraith: 	Must be.
	Soft Linden: 	If enough of us use it, it will be!
	Soft Linden: 	Time for 1-2 more?
	Saijanai Kuhn: 	I heard a friend use it once. I suspect she kurssmuggled anothe rterm, but it stuck
	Aric Linden: 	it looks as though https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1823 has been fixed
	Daedalus Young: 	yep
	Dzonatas Sol: 	i'll put it in the next version of the sandbox viewer, also
	Aric Linden: 	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1822
	Aric Linden: 	I'm not sure what to make of this at all.
	Daedalus Young: 	British English, I'd use it
	Saijanai Kuhn: 	Queen's English vs Webster's
	Aric Linden: 	I guess we could create an installer that allows British as an install option
	Saijanai Kuhn wants pirate 	Saijanai Kuhn wants pirate
	Dzonatas Sol: 	Aric, this was part of a discussion where new users didn't understand they muted someone
	Soft Linden: 	Colour me surprised! I left me fags in the boot of me lorry when I went up the lift to the flat with me mate!
	Boroondas Gupte: 	why an installer?
	Aric Linden: 	pip pip Soft
	Aric Linden: 	Because the strings are installer specific
	Able Whitman: 	Soft, I think you're quoting from the Cockney translation :)
	Dzonatas Sol: 	oops... my last comment was for 1735
	Ryozu Yamamoto: 	Mmm, Pirate
	Wyn Galbraith feels like she's sharing a cube with her friend the Brit again. 	Wyn Galbraith feels like she's sharing a cube with her friend the Brit again.
	Soft Linden: 	It might be fun just to toss this at internationalization. I think the position right now is they only accept patches for already-supported languages. And British English iiiiiis kinda supported :>
	Aric Linden: 	Dzonatas, I was wondering what you meant.
	Ryozu Yamamoto: 	How are languages handled right now anyway?
	Aric Linden: 	/nods at Soft. yeah, let's make INTL figure it out.
	Aric Linden: 	Japanese, Korean and German currently
	Saijanai Kuhn: 	Dignified British LIbrarian: anyone have a spare rubber? Mie broke?
	Boroondas Gupte: 	right now you can set them in preferences and then restart the viewer
	Aric Linden: 	although I don't think you see german in the installer yet
	Saijanai Kuhn: 	Roomful of American GIs: ....
	Ryozu Yamamoto: 	Never looked at it, a single file with all the strings in it would seem logical...
	Aric Linden: 	Ryozu, it's XML based strings.
	Soft Linden: 	Ryozu - look in the installed SL folder - there are subdirectories for a number of languages, each mirroring the same XML-based interface descriptions, with translations therein.
	Boroondas Gupte: 	spot the xui folder
	Aric Linden: 	I don't want to make extra work for anyone, though. Does this seem worth importing?
	Squirrel Wood: 	Klingon?
	Ryozu Yamamoto: 	Adding languages shouldn't be a bug deal then
	Ryozu Yamamoto: 	big deal
	Ryozu Yamamoto: 	>_>
	Saijanai Kuhn: 	not a UTF-8 recognized language, sorry
	Aric Linden: 	It is a big deal. it requires copious testing
	Saijanai Kuhn: 	was propsed, but failed in review
	Soft Linden: 	It's 98k bzipped :(
	Dale Glass: 	size is a problem?
	Aric Linden: 	I'd like to reject this one. Does that peeve anyone beyond rescue?
	Benja Kepler: 	you could state Linden policy on the blog about this - to stop others working on different languages
	Soft Linden: 	Might fire off a note to internationalization, but this probably shouldn't happen until we've got better translation tools. Right now, an extra language specification involves a lot of hand-synchronization of all the XMLs.
	Benja Kepler: 	it must be a lot of work to wate
	Benja Kepler: 	*watse
	Benja Kepler: 	*waste
	Dzonatas Sol: 	It's 4SLT. Thank you for being here.. gotta go ... bye
	Ryozu Yamamoto: 	Nope, somehow, I don't think adding every dialect under the sun is all that important
	Aric Linden: 	And test.
	Saijanai Kuhn: 	Eubonics...
	Daedalus Young: 	bye Dzon
	Aric Linden: 	Thanks to everyone for their time.
	Wyn Galbraith: 	Bye Dzonatas.
	Bridie Linden: 	I've gotta run too - thanks all!
	Soft Linden: 	But yeah - as Benja says - we should put policy somewhere obvious. Maybe a wiki link in a comment at the head of each XML file.
	Bridie Linden: 	Thanks to Aric for guest hosting!
	Wyn Galbraith: 	Bye bye Bridie.
	Daedalus Young: 	bye Bridie
	Squirrel Wood: 	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1250 <= anyone who wants the password for the rar file.. raise hand ^^
	Saijanai Kuhn: 	Give a polite "not at this time due to..." message thanking them for their work but...
	Aric Linden: 	Thanks to Bridie for guest importing!