Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.07.16

Simulator_User_Group
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== List of Speakers ==
ANSI Soderstrom 	Davido Chrome 	Ima Mechanique
Kallista Destiny	Kennylex Luckless	Kitto Flora
Lucia Nightfire 	Martinrj Fayray 	Mona Eberhardt
Motor Loon 	Nalates Urriah 	Qie Niangao
Rex Cronon 	Simon Linden 	Whirly Fizzle
== Transcript ==
[12:01] Simon Linden: lol ÄlveKatt - no money scams at user group, ok? ;)
[12:02] Kennylex Luckless: I did start it :-)
[12:02] Davido Chrome: Yeah, ban Kenny, not me!
[12:02] Simon Linden: well, we can get started with news .... there was a server update to the main channel this morning
[12:03] Simon Linden: The forum post is here : http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2013-07-15/td-p/2086673
[12:03] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
[12:03] Davido Chrome: Hi
[12:03] Simon Linden: There should be some small grid-wide improvements there ... we found there were regions re-baking the pathfinding navmesh far more often than needed
[12:03] Mona Eberhardt: Hi Rex.
[12:04] Davido Chrome: They do it automagically now and then?
[12:04] Simon Linden: Tomorrow the 3 RC channels have updates, including the next maintenance fixes
[12:04] Rex Cronon: hi davido, mona
[12:05] Simon Linden: They could get into a repeating cycle ... if you hadn't set your viewer to ignore those notifications about the terrain re-bake, it would get pretty annoying
[12:05] Davido Chrome: That must have been a lagger.
[12:06] Simon Linden: It was triggered by a very specific land layout ...I think it required multiple parcels, and all the parcel edges had to be underwater (which isn't normally a pathfinding area)
[12:06] Simon Linden: unfortunately, if you divide up land into individual islands, that's not uncommon
[12:06] Simon Linden: anyway, the fix is on most of the grid now and the updates tomorrow will get it everywhere
[12:06] Davido Chrome: Does Pathfinding work underwater now? (He asked hopefully)
[12:07] Simon Linden: I don't think it does, but I'm kinda guessing here
[12:07] Simon Linden: that would be an interesting option
[12:07] Lucia Nightfire: don't think there were ever plans for water adn air pf
[12:07] Lucia Nightfire: even though it should have been implemented
[12:08] Davido Chrome: It's just one xtra axis to keep track of. :D
[12:08] Simon Linden: yeah, I know air was definitely off the table ... I guess the Havok engine doesn't support that
[12:08] Simon Linden: speaking of pathfinding, the update tomorrow for the maintenance project will have some fixes for CHARACTER_STAY_WITHIN_PARCEL
[12:09] Rex Cronon: am i mistaken? aren't here games that use havok and have objects/monster flying through 3d mazes?
[12:09] Lucia Nightfire: I think they fake it, Rex
[12:09] Simon Linden: If anyone has recommendations for some creature that might be fun to put around here, let me know ... I'd like to try it out
[12:10] Nalates Urriah: Havok has some type of volume PF thing... I'm not clear. It was too much for the the team to add in the time frame available...
[12:10] Simon Linden: There may be Rex, but since it's a specific game they may be able to get something to work that's not as extensive or open as SL would be
[12:10] Rex Cronon: make copies of nyx, script them and have them patrol your pacel simon:)
[12:10] Simon Linden: lol, that would work
[12:11] Rex Cronon: parcel*
[12:11] Davido Chrome: I bet that would sell like butter
[12:11] Simon Linden: So I think that's it for news ... Andrew is on vacation today, and Baker had a commitment for this time
[12:11] Simon Linden: So the table is open for topics or questions
[12:11] Lucia Nightfire: there goes my poking at Andrew into what anti-griefing angles he's looking into
[12:12] Simon Linden: well, even if he was here I'm not sure he'd be able to talk much about them
[12:12] Nalates Urriah: is the RenderMaterialsCapability thing something to do with requesting normal and specular maps?
[12:12] Davido Chrome: There seem to be bigger a delay in vehicle controls since a few weeks back.
[12:12] Rex Cronon: i have a question. why doesn't llGetParcelPrimOwners work in public sandboxes?
[12:12] Lucia Nightfire: there needs to be some input requested of the residents to some degree
[12:13] Lucia Nightfire: otherwise, I'm guessing all that is goign to be done is threshodl adjusting
[12:13] Lucia Nightfire: intead of anything concrete
[12:13] Simon Linden: Nal - that has the info on the throttle rate for those requests
[12:14] Motor Loon: You'd likely have to deed it to the landgroup Rex to get good results
[12:14] Simon Linden: I think the viewer is currently hard-coded not to do more than 5 per second or something ... this will tell the viewer what that limit is
[12:14] Motor Loon: which probably will be tricky in a public sandbox °?°
[12:14] Nalates Urriah: IS it all texture requests or does it just affect objects with the new Materials?
[12:14] Simon Linden: I'm pretty sure it's the new materials requests
[12:15] Nalates Urriah: OK, thx
[12:15] Simon Linden: If you're using http texture requests, those don't even go through the simulator so I'm not sure what kind of throttling is there
[12:15] Rex Cronon: imo in all the sandboxes owned by ll there should be nothing to hide eveybody should be able to see who rezzed how many prims
[12:16] Simon Linden: Rex - short answer is I really don't know about llGetParcelPrimOwners() or why it would be weird in sandboxes
[12:16] Davido Chrome: Simon, is there any relatively new throttles on vehicle motor updates?
[12:16] Rex Cronon: ok
[12:16] Simon Linden: None that I know of, ÄlveKatt. I haven't heard of any changes in that area
[12:16] Whirly Fizzle: Why was it decided not to roll SSA out to another RC? Was it just because of the notecard bug fix holding that back?
[12:17] Qie Niangao: llGetParcelPrimOwners works same in sandboxes as everywhere: if you're not the landowner, too bad for you (unless the landowner scripted something for you to look at)
[12:17] Lucia Nightfire: what sucks is llGetParcelPrimOwners() doesn't have an input such as "public return level", "group-set return level", "group-owned return level" or similar, heh
[12:17] Simon Linden: Vehicle motors are run by the physics engine, and we haven't done much there. Andrew was working on the interest list, which is general updates, so something might have changed
[12:18] Simon Linden: Whirly - yes, that notecard bug needed to be fixed. Also, we try to decide before the weekend what to do on Tuesday ... so SSA hadn't lasted the weekend yet
[12:18] Davido Chrome: Aah. The visual update delay after you turn has been fixed, the simball community is very pleased. :)
[12:18] Whirly Fizzle: Okay ty
[12:18] Simon Linden: oh, that's good news
[12:19] Rex Cronon: what notecard bug?
[12:19] Rex Cronon: is it eating them notecards?
[12:19] Whirly Fizzle: On LeTigre, if you tried to save a NC after added an embedded LM, NC, Objects, whatever, it would not save
[12:19] Qie Niangao: Fixed "Cannot save any notecards containing attachments" (BUG-3203[c])
[12:20] Rex Cronon: oh
[12:20] Davido Chrome: Yeah, it seriously messed with defense play.
[12:21] Simon Linden: I can see that really changing game play
[12:21] Lucia Nightfire: can't send any envelope bombs
[12:23] Kennylex Luckless: .
[12:23] Davido Chrome: So, I don't know if the new thing they like to complain about is repsonse time. But there is a very noticeable delay between pressing a button and returning, I am unsure though. When I studied congnitive science we got to use a strobing light thing to see how high the frequenzy had to be before the light looked solid, it wasn't until it reached about 20000 hertz per second that you couldn't see it flash.
[12:24] Davido Chrome: And ping to a sim from overseas never goes below 189.
[12:24] Simon Linden: What do you mean by "returning" in that situation?
[12:25] Davido Chrome: Strange typo, I meant between Pressing the button and seeing the Board react, like turn if you pressed right.
[12:25] Object: Hello, Avatar!
[12:25] Simon Linden: ah, right
[12:25] Davido Chrome: I don't know why my brain made me type return instead of turn... Very peculiar. XD
[12:26] Lucia Nightfire: brain want coffee
[12:26] Simon Linden: well ... the most recent changes have been the interest list work, so that might have changed the time it takes to tell your viewer something happened in-world
[12:27] Simon Linden: otherwise the delay is from the network between your client and the server, the server reacting to that event and the script doing something, it deciding to send an update, and then the network back down to your viewer again
[12:27] Lucia Nightfire: plus frametime
[12:28] Simon Linden: right, on top off all that the simulator is running each frame with all the other AVs, scripts, physics, rezzing and so on
[12:28] Davido Chrome: Then I have a followup question, can complex physics calculations intrude on script time?
[12:28] Kitto Flora: Alve - click on thatcube, see how fast it responds for you
[12:29] Simon Linden: ÄlveKatt - it could lower the sim fps, and thus cut time spent on scripts down to the minimum
[12:29] Davido Chrome: My finger has left the button before it changes. But it's too fast too put on a numbered scale.
[12:29] Lucia Nightfire: one thing I've been seeing on Bluesteel regions is settext on HUDs not updating during moderate region net timing use
[12:29] Lucia Nightfire: as of the last update
[12:29] Simon Linden: That "Spare Time" in the stats shows you headroom when the sim has run all scripts in the frame
[12:30] Kitto Flora: I suspect that Alve suffers from long network transmission time
[12:30] Rex Cronon: lucia. is there any way to fore text to update?
[12:30] Rex Cronon: force*
[12:30] Simon Linden: That's interesting, Lucy .... I wouldn't expect the changes in that RC to affect HUDs and text
[12:31] Lucia Nightfire: if its interest list related it could be a factor
[12:31] Qie Niangao: Hard to speed up them durn photons.
[12:31] Davido Chrome: Kitto, yeah, it's the damn curvature of the earth. We need to drill fiber into the earths mantle.
[12:31] Qie Niangao: quantum entanglement ftw
[12:31] Simon Linden: It could be, but Bluesteel isn't interest list work. Maybe it also occurs in other channels
[12:31] Rex Cronon: nope. u need quantum communications:)
[12:32] Simon Linden: I'd settle for quantum memory
[12:32] Kitto Flora: More like too much network congestion and store .............................. and forward.
[12:32] Davido Chrome: Simon, when do SL get quantum entanglement?
[12:33] Simon Linden: Things are pretty well tangled now, I don't think we need more
[12:33] Qie Niangao: Davido: Before sim crossings are fixed.
[12:34] Lucia Nightfire: so what other news is ther
[12:34] Lucia Nightfire: *there
[12:34] Simon Linden: Let me ask a question ... has anyone noticed changes good or bad with the Server Side Appearance?
[12:34] Lucia Nightfire: yeah, it doesn't like grey skin, lol
[12:34] Davido Chrome: Wanted to have a look, but I can't find any populated LeTigre sims.
[12:35] Mona Eberhardt: Try Myanimo, AlveKatt.
[12:35] Kitto Flora: Simon - are you asking about Av's texture rezzing?
[12:35] Simon Linden: I didn't think of it earlier, but I could have moved this region there
[12:35] Davido Chrome: Myanimo, check.
[12:35] Mona Eberhardt: It usually has lots of people, each one with huge amounts of laggy scripts.
[12:35] Simon Linden: Yes Kitto - if anyone had noticed changes for better or worse
[12:35] Qie Niangao: For me, SSA is way, way faster than without it... but then, the bake servers are only serving like 10% of the number of sims they'll need to when rolled-out.
[12:36] Davido Chrome: SSA has dedicated servers?
[12:36] Lucia Nightfire: I would hope
[12:36] Nalates Urriah: SSA is quick. Seems to be working well.
[12:36] Simon Linden: Right, Qie ... we're watching the load to make sure they don't implode when we roll it out more
[12:36] Mona Eberhardt: Personally, I didn't notice any difference with or without SSA, other than the fact that, once rezzed, people's textures stayed rezzed.
[12:36] Kitto Flora: Simon - the last 1 or 2 monts I have noticed much more and longer cloud state on first connecting. Up to maybe 30 secodns.
[12:37] Kitto Flora: Today I got instant appearance - but only 1 test.
[12:37] Qie Niangao: It does make the rest of the avatar seem to rez more slowly by comparison. Like attached mesh clothing, etc., comes in much later than the skin, now.
[12:37] Whirly Fizzle: Good - seems to work better for most people, there has been hardly any screaming. Bad - SUN-99 is worrying, also SUN-100 (but no logs or further feedback from them). Also possibly an issue on SSA regions with T-Mobile network - http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/SSB-via-T-Mobile-cellphone/td-p/2086361
[12:37] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SUN-100
[#SUN-100] Massive FPS drops and performance loss on ssa enabled regions - Second Life Bug Tracker
[12:37] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SUN-99
[#SUN-99] Bakefail on SSA regions only. When entering into SSA region, skin and system clothes fail to bake. - Second Life Bug Tracker
[12:37] Nalates Urriah: I've had more bake fails in non-SSA regions.
[12:37] Simon Linden: It certainly should be more reliable than the old system
[12:37] Simon Linden: I haven't tested any of the phone-based viewers to see if AVs look any better
[12:38] Lucia Nightfire: you know what popped in my mind, how LL lets the map servers get full and no tiles update for days, hopefully that doesn't happen with the SSA servers like on a weekend, lol
[12:38] Simon Linden: yeah, definitely ... they need to run reliably for a long time
[12:39] Rex Cronon: what will happen if everybody on the grid wanted to change clothes at same time? would the ssa server crash?
[12:39] Simon Linden: The map servers are actually pretty good, but they get cranky if left running for months
[12:40] Simon Linden: No crashes, Rex ... just no clothes ;)
[12:40] Lucia Nightfire: grid status reports - SSA server maintenance, enjoy your greyscale for a few hours
[12:40] Ima Mechanique: aww, would be funny if you ended up wearing someone else's clothes instead
[12:40] Whirly Fizzle: lol
[12:41] Davido Chrome: IMa, you could end up naked and transgender.
[12:41] Whirly Fizzle: That can happen actually with rigged mesh under certain circumstances :P (only client side though)
[12:41] Ima Mechanique: doesn't worry me, change is as good as a rest
[12:41] Motor Loon: Nothing wrong with the naked part
[12:41] Davido Chrome: :D
[12:41] Simon Linden: I'm guessing a total failure would have you with grey skins but attachments looking normal
[12:41] Lucia Nightfire: you only have to worry abotu beign naked if you have mesh clothing
[12:41] Lucia Nightfire: as your skin will load before the rest
[12:41] Lucia Nightfire: which is what I see now
[12:42] Lucia Nightfire: and many clothign creators don't include alphas, lol
[12:42] Simon Linden: yeah, that's an interesting failure mode
[12:42] Davido Chrome: Ah so the alpha layers are a necessity even with a working deformer, for PG sims.
[12:43] Lucia Nightfire: now we need bake servers for everything else, mesh, rezzed object textures, do it alls, lol
[12:43] ANSI Soderstrom whispers: hi
[12:44] Kitto Flora: If this sim has new code for dealing with Av Appearance, I'm not impressed
[12:44] Lucia Nightfire: although with mesh it'd technically be LOD servers
[12:44] Davido Chrome: I really wish you could have baked layers on mesh. That way maybe you could have normal clothing on Mesh avatars.
[12:44] Motor Loon: SSA is still only on LeTigre Kitto
[12:44] Simon Linden: It's not on this region yet
[12:44] Kitto Flora: OK
[12:45] Davido Chrome: Or just define an outer Mesh layer as clothing layer, so you could make a working pants shape to come with the avatar.
[12:45] Mona Eberhardt: One thing I still haven't understood. Several pieces of furniture have scripts that allow us to adjust the position of our avatar on them (like AVsitter, MLP and other such systems do). With SSA, will those scripts still work?
[12:45] Lucia Nightfire: ask Masetro to put Morris on aditi on the SSA code before Thursday's OH if it isn't already
[12:45] Kitto Flora: Clouds on start would be on Blue Steel
[12:45] Qie Niangao: Mona, sure.
[12:46] Mona Eberhardt: Thanks.
[12:46] Simon Linden: That should all work as before, Mona ... your sitting position shouldn't affect the bake layers
[12:46] Mona Eberhardt nods
[12:47] Rex Cronon: now we need new lsl functions to wear/change/take)off clothes:)
[12:47] Simon Linden: That's a good idea, Lucy
[12:47] ANSI Soderstrom: yay
[12:47] ANSI Soderstrom: we need to change groups by outfit
[12:47] Lucia Nightfire: llPantsOnTheGround()
[12:47] Rex Cronon: haha
[12:47] Qie Niangao: There's supposedly some funkiness in SSA about adjusting avatar height with TPVs (not the scripted adjustments), but I never much cared about that. It was a big deal at some Nyx office hours for a while.
[12:47] ANSI Soderstrom: and llPiggyBank, a Object where stores my money and i can gift it
[12:48] Mona Eberhardt: or llBoxersOnHeadPencilsInNostrils.
[12:48] Simon Linden: I'd love to see outfits get some attention and improvements ... they're nice but need work
[12:48] ANSI Soderstrom: so i can place a L$ in a L$
[12:48] Whirly Fizzle: Yeah The Z offset feature broken with SSA
[12:48] Kitto Flora: Uh-oh - some sim is down, or not connected in snowlands - the Wengen-Smithers Bluff telegraph line has failed.
[12:48] Davido Chrome: The pants layer Mesh is more for the content creation group, though?
[12:48] ANSI Soderstrom: oh
[12:48] ANSI Soderstrom: sorry
[12:48] Rex Cronon: llGiveWedgy()
[12:48] Lucia Nightfire: does a crash get you a highscore?
[12:48] Lucia Nightfire: or a 1Down?
[12:48] Lucia Nightfire: lmao
[12:49] ANSI Soderstrom: just testing
[12:49] ANSI Soderstrom: thats my right as resident
[12:49] Kennylex Luckless: You need less mone Ansi
[12:49] Kennylex Luckless: mony
[12:49] ANSI Soderstrom: or a dolly
[12:50] Davido Chrome: The ability to make a pant layer mesh for your avatar should make it possible to wear old school clothing on Mesh avatars.
[12:51] Simon Linden: I think if we got that deep into it, we'd re-design AVs and add more to it
[12:51] Davido Chrome: The drawback being that You are forced to deform the original avatar to fit around the avatar shape you have created.
[12:51] Davido Chrome: If you do that, make gender a Slider rather than a tick box. :)
[12:51] Lucia Nightfire: optional # arms and legs or tails, lol
[12:52] Lucia Nightfire: and anotomically correct bits
[12:52] Rex Cronon: tentacles?
[12:52] Simon Linden: I'd love to see some AVs built with the new materials ... an metallic dragon could be really awesome
[12:52] Lucia Nightfire: and tentacles, yes
[12:52] Lucia Nightfire: I'd like to see a mesh dragon, period
[12:52] Kitto Flora: How to make a Pierson's Puppeteer?
[12:53] Motor Loon: Get it to mainchannel Simon, and I'm sure the grid will be flooded with materials AV's
[12:53] Kennylex Luckless: Materials can be evil on prims :-/
[12:53] Whirly Fizzle: Materials support is on all servers
[12:53] Davido Chrome: Oh, someone told me Materials were already turned on grid wide...
[12:53] Qie Niangao: sure are
[12:54] Simon Linden: yes, it's all over the grid now
[12:54] Davido Chrome: Can't find controls for it in Firestorm though.
[12:54] Qie Niangao: just that less than half of users have ALM turned on (even though most could)
[12:54] Motor Loon: ah... well, then we just need all the viewers to pick it up then
[12:54] Whirly Fizzle: Its noy released in FS.
[12:54] Whirly Fizzle: *not
[12:54] Simon Linden: and you really do need a decent graphics card
[12:54] Lucia Nightfire: *yet
[12:54] Mona Eberhardt: I can easily see how the LI calculations on materials-endowed prims can make people have second thoughts about using materials in their builds.
[12:54] Qie Niangao: oh, right, and there are TPVs. :p
[12:54] ANSI Soderstrom: Material on Prims is like a anvil on the head
[12:55] Whirly Fizzle: If you can compile, you can get mats in FS . Build this repo http://hg.phoenixviewer.com/phoenix-firestorm-lgpl-chui/
[12:55] Davido Chrome: I think it needs to have limitations on it. Builders tend to need a good deal of pushing to make optimized models...
[12:55] Whirly Fizzle: Davido, youre in beta testers. Youll be getting a build soon with materials ;)
[12:55] Simon Linden: yes, it switches the land impact calculations to use the new method. That certainly does have it's oddness that you have to be careful with when building
[12:56] Davido Chrome: Yay! :D
[12:56] Lucia Nightfire: oddness, lol
[12:56] Davido Chrome: Prims and LI usually lowers the prim count for me.
[12:56] Lucia Nightfire: careful usage, lol
[12:57] Mona Eberhardt: Simon, last time around, Kenny pointed out some inconsistency in the calculations, though. Is there any chance that the math will be looked at again, so that the results of the calculations will be predictable?
[12:57] Kennylex Luckless: It is often posible to lower LI, but some time not and it canbe very hard.
[12:57] Davido Chrome: 48 tortured prims, LI is still 31.
[12:57] Davido Chrome: Uh, 43, but still.
[12:57] Simon Linden: we have those bugs in our queue ... I don't know the status. I know nobody likes working in that stuff :P
[12:57] Lucia Nightfire: I would say you're SOL to have any LI calc changed at this point
[12:58] Davido Chrome: 43 prims, 31 Li.
[12:58] Kennylex Luckless: You can take copy of my build, it has material textures inside
[12:59] Martinrj Fayray: I was easily able to get a premium sandbox full (15000 LI) with a single torus after torturing it for a few seconds
[12:59] Simon Linden: it looks like some of that is no-trans
[12:59] Rex Cronon: martinrj. u made one ring to rule them all:)
[12:59] Kennylex Luckless: I think material is best happen to SL but that LI system has to be simpler to get more folk to use material and convert old builds.
[13:00] Martinrj Fayray: lol Rex
[13:01] Davido Chrome: Martin, attach it to a simple cube and make the tortured prim physics shape none. Magic!
[13:01] Kennylex Luckless: Now a house can get like 40 000 LI when apply material, ans if toy do it to convex hull you can not enter it
[13:01] Martinrj Fayray: absolute good point
[13:01] ANSI Soderstrom: i miss only the ducks
[13:02] Davido Chrome: So materials doesn't add LI to things that are allready using the new accounting system?
[13:02] Simon Linden: nice ducks
[13:02] ANSI Soderstrom: oh, more ducks
[13:02] Kennylex Luckless: I can show fun with LI and material
[13:02] Martinrj Fayray: I hope these aren't the ducks that crash a sim when they cross a border?
[13:02] Davido Chrome: PF-ducks?
[13:02] Whirly Fizzle: Those ducks are evil!
[13:02] ANSI Soderstrom: they did it
[13:02] Whirly Fizzle: Ya, those ducks LOL
[13:02] Simon Linden: maybe we shouldn't say "ducks" ?
[13:02] Ima Mechanique: arrrgh! they're breeding
[13:02] Kallista Destiny: quack
[13:03] ANSI Soderstrom: no, say house, love L$, avil or something other
[13:03] Rex Cronon: if there is water near sim border nothing crashes
[13:03] Lucia Nightfire: I just hope CHARACTER_STAY_WITHIN_PARCEL was the sole resolution for that crash bug, heh
[13:03] Lucia Nightfire: *wasn't
[13:03] Lucia Nightfire: bah
[13:03] Simon Linden: I have to get going ... thanks everyone for coming this week
Simulator_User_Group
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