Viewer Evolution User Group/Archive/2011-02-16

07:59 	Cummere Mayo  	hey ann :)
  	Oz Linden  	wow... good turnout today
08:00 	Honour McMillan  	we were promised cookies
  	Cummere Mayo  	yeah lotta things to say
  	Jonathan  	I heard about the popcorn
  	Q Linden  	hey all
  	Jonathan  	Hi q
  	Oz Linden  	all on-topic, of course....
  	Temple Fiertze  	Hello Oz and Q
  	Honour McMillan  	Q!
  	Q Linden  	having machine troubles, brb
  	Ann Otoole  	Q needs a beefier computer
08:01 	Jonathan  	Or a hot spare
  	Cummere Mayo  	is it his comp or is it the client? Im struggling with the 2.7 build
  	Ann Otoole  	my 2.5 has no delete/trashcan for picks
08:02 	Cummere Mayo  	that is fixed in 2.7 ann
  	Ann Otoole  	i'm feeling ripped off :(
  	Temple Fiertze  	Oz, do you formally open the floor for questions, or do we just dive in?
  	Dil Spitz  	Hey there :)
if no one protest i like to listen this meeting silently
  	Ann Otoole  	so another it was there and someone paid to put it back again?
  	Jonathan  	Everyone is welcome Dil
  	Honour McMillan  	Dil :) I rarely speak
  	draconis.neurocam  	there is sort of an agenda page on the wiki
  	Cummere Mayo  	dil: heathen! we cast you out! J/k
08:03 	Ann Otoole  	The agenda for the next meeting is:
1. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23834
2. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-16978
3. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/ECC-49
4. Broken links in inventory should be able to be reassigned.
5. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24136
  	JIRA-helper  	VWR-23834 Viewer needlessly hits the "ObjectMedia" cap with thousands of requests
  	  	VWR-16978 'Inspect' is missing from Viewer 2.0
  	  	VWR-24136 Deprecate AllowMultipleViewers
  	Jonathan  	vwr-24136
08:04 	Wolfpup  	oz this going to be a mix of text and voice?
  	Ann Otoole  	i actually like the new OH page. easy tofind stuff and the calendar is great
  	Jonathan  	what is the url for that agenda?
  	draconis.neurocam  	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_2_Evolution_User_Group
  	Oz Linden  	no... I was just being lazy... waiting for Q
  	Ann Otoole  	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_2_Evolution_User_Group
08:05 	Oz Linden  	if there are things you want to discuss that are not on the agenda, add them now (at the end)
  	Cummere Mayo  	um might want to refresh the agenda
  	Temple Fiertze  	I believe this forum is for Viewer 2 changes?
08:06 	  	If that is correct, than I will type question
  	Ann Otoole  	# https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23834
# https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-16978
# https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/ECC-49
# Broken links in inventory should be able to be reassigned.
  	JIRA-helper  	VWR-23834 Viewer needlessly hits the "ObjectMedia" cap with thousands of requests
  	  	VWR-16978 'Inspect' is missing from Viewer 2.0
  	Cummere Mayo  	theres more stuff now ann
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	I'm logged in but it still doesn't give me edit perms, Oz
  	Oz Linden  	Q is having some system difficulties....
  	Ann Otoole  	# https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24136
# https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24804
# https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/storm-2
# https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24807
  	JIRA-helper  	VWR-24136 Deprecate AllowMultipleViewers
  	  	VWR-24804 Taking off part or all of a clothing/attachment set and then wearing another item often causes the the removed item(s) to reapear
  	  	STORM-2 As a User, I want to set my own default views with specific UI layout so I can tailor my Viewer experience to the activities I'm most interested in.
  	  	VWR-24807 Add ability to filter cookies into the browser
  	Fancy Linden Greeter  	Q Linden has arrived!
  	Ann Otoole  	wb Q :)
  	Oz Linden  	it is not edittable by sections... use the tab at the top of the page
08:07 	TriloByte Zanzibar  	ok thanks
  	Q Linden  	sorry, all, Firefox decided to claim all of my machine
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	bad FF
  	Cummere Mayo  	take it you made the mistake of upgrading too?
  	Q Linden  	ah well
08:08 	  	anyway, what are we talking about so far?
  	Honour McMillan  	you
  	Cummere Mayo  	we jsut psoted the agenda
  	Oz Linden  	we were waiting
  	Ann Otoole  	i hesitate toupgrade anything. windows update usually kills ny network card.
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	"lets wayt for q to come back"
  	Q Linden  	nice to see such a big crowd
  	Oz Linden  	let's start at the top.... VWR-23834
  	Cummere Mayo  	grins wickedly
  	Temple Fiertze  	New to this, so maybe I'm missing the agenda, but here is my question...The new Profile View in 2.5 is not working on Mac computers. Is there a fix for this?
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	Morning, Q
  	Cummere Mayo  	temple can you add that to the end of the agenda please?
08:09 	TriloByte Zanzibar  	Temple, it works fine on my machines
  	Cummere Mayo  	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_2_Evolution_User_Group
  	Temple Fiertze  	Where is the agenda?
  	Jonathan  	I messed up the numbering of the agenda not knowing how to format the wiki
  	Temple Fiertze  	As stated, new so I think I'm missing something
  	Honour McMillan  	smacks Jonathan
  	Jonathan  	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_2_Evolution_User_Group
  	Q Linden  	temple, are you getting SSL error?
  	Temple Fiertze  	thanks
08:10 	Ann Otoole  	everyone take a deep breath because it is awesome andeasy once you seehowit works
  	Oz Linden  	who put 23834 on the agenda?
  	Cummere Mayo  	jonathan for future reference to do what you were trying is ##
  	Jonathan  	ok, please fix it
  	Emma Floresby  	hello :) am I bothering ?
  	draconis.neurocam  	i did, it is a problem that is worse in some sims than others, i notice it usually when logging in
  	Ann Otoole  	unlike my broken space bar that only half works.
  	draconis.neurocam  	watching the debug menu
08:11 	  	i just get spammed with llmediadataclient requests
  	Honour McMillan  	Morning Emma
  	Emma Floresby  	hi Honour :)
  	draconis.neurocam  	the sheer amount of which usually causes framerate loss
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	Oz, that's the problem that we talked about last week with the viewer stuttering, I believe
  	Ann Otoole  	are they redzone url forcings? thats everywhere on mainland now.
  	Oz Linden  	I think we should take a look at it, but would you please add some pointers to places where the problem is especially bad soe that we have good test cases?
08:12 	draconis.neurocam  	sure, i can add them to the jira comments
  	Q Linden  	whoops, that's on my queue and I let it slide
  	Oz Linden  	Ann... not the current agenda item
  	Jonathan  	Oz, reload that agenda page when you have a moment
08:13 	Ann Otoole  	so llmediaclient requests are not related to scripted forcing of urls toload?
  	Oz Linden  	it's not the performance issue, Ann
  	Ann Otoole  	ok
08:14 	Oz Linden  	next item : VWR-16978
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	VWR-23834 is relates to VWR-23318
  	JIRA-helper  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23318
VWR-23318 Persistent Viewer 2 Framerate "Stutter"
  	Q Linden  	i'm not sure it is, trilobyte, but it may be
08:15 	Ann Otoole  	I only get some stutter as stuff firehoses in on landing. After that it settles down.
  	draconis.neurocam  	for 16978 i added that as well, the fix is easy and has been listed on the viewer 2 tweaks page since the day viewer 2 dropped almost
  	  	im just wondering how it never found its way in
08:16 	Q Linden  	I'm moving 23834 to STORM so we can tackle it in a sprint
  	Jonathan  	vwr-23944 and vwr-23946 address this and some other organizational issues
  	JIRA-helper  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23946
VWR-23946 Add the option to see object details when right clicking on another avatar
  	  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23944
VWR-23944 Object Menu reorganization and enhancement
08:17 	draconis.neurocam  	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_2_Tweaks/Full_2.0.0.203055#Add_Inspect_back_on_objects_and_avatar_objects is the fix for adding inspect back in
  	Oz Linden  	I've not used this feature on 1.23, so I can't really comment
  	  	Q?
  	draconis.neurocam  	it is useful when finding stolen content
  	Cummere Mayo  	its an amazingly useful feature
  	avatar42  	I agree
  	Jonathan  	Oz, those are 2 items from my long list--I thought Wolf would look at them
  	Ann Otoole  	presumed "stolen"content anyway
  	draconis.neurocam  	reguardless the information is useful
  	Cummere Mayo  	theres tons of other places it comes in handy too
08:18 	Ann Otoole  	i'd love to right click an avatar and see a list of their entire payload by name including memory and script count myself.
08:19 	Cummere Mayo  	nyx is working on soemthig like that
  	Jonathan  	Ann, I have a svc jira in for that, too
  	lufpleh Obstreperous  	wonders if Object Profile > Details is similar to Inspect
  	Sera Lok  	seems like there is something in the properties window that does "Inspect", it's just not called "INspect"? i'm not on v2 right now so can't check :/
  	Q Linden  	ann, wouldnt' that be a privacy leak?
  	Honour McMillan  	Luf it doesn't give the detail
  	Jonathan  	There is Object Profile and then Object Details
  	  	which is the old Inspect
08:20 	Honour McMillan  	hmmmm
  	Ann Otoole  	nope. it would allow us to eject people carrying malicious objects
  	Jonathan  	but it is hard to find and doesn't always work
  	Ann Otoole  	and spot script overusers fast
  	Jonathan  	you can wear a hud to script usage / avatar
  	Script Counter  	
Total Avatar Scripts - 2250
Highest - Temple Fiertze: 649 (29%)
Lowest - Oz Linden: 0 (0%)
  	Jonathan  	*to see
08:21 	Oz Linden  	A quick process note... 16978 describes a solution, not a problem
  	Q Linden  	i'm not really sure what's being asked for here
  	Oz Linden  	I've just heard several problems for which it _might_ be the right solution
  	Ann Otoole  	so the feature is there by way of scripts now. why not be in the client?
  	Cummere Mayo  	a return for a feature that 1.x had that 2.x didnt q...
  	F L I P  	"'Inspect' is missing from Viewer 2.0" isn't a problem?
  	Ann Otoole  	we are talking avatar attachments and not rezzeditems right?
08:22 	Oz Linden  	not clear, Ann
  	draconis.neurocam  	it is removed functionality from 1.2x and snowglobe
  	Cummere Mayo  	a feature incredibly useful to buidlers, sim owners, etc
  	Jonathan  	Oz, my 2 jiras are better written--I mean to pass them by snowstorm once wolf is more settled in
  	Cummere Mayo  	(btw inspect worked on rezzed items and on attachments)
  	oobscure  	I apologize for the interruption: unfortunately I have to leave now and i'm not sure I'll be back in SL before the meeting's over. I'm the one who added https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-809 to the agenda, so feel free not to discuss it here .. but please take note that 2.5 official release seems to be unusable for Linux users because of this bug. Bye everybody, and again sorry.
  	JIRA-helper  	STORM-809 Official Linux builds no longer built with c-ares support - causes big performance pauses
08:23 	Ann Otoole  	i'm kind of curious about privacy in general. which user group should we discuss privacy in?
  	Q Linden  	thanks, oo, 809 is in process now
08:24 	  	but anyway, let's get back to the other issue
  	  	this feels related to but not identical to the build tools question
  	Oz Linden  	it is not a requirement that the viewer always preserve all past ways of doing anything, so if a feature is removed that's not by itself a bug. In this case, it's clear that many people have problems that feature helped with, so we should probably do something about it. Whether or not that somethign is bringing back exactly the old way remains to be seen
  	Q Linden  	oz is correct
  	draconis.neurocam  	the code is still in the viewer, all that is required is an xml change
  	Jonathan  	Oz, that feature is present, just not easily discovered
  	Cummere Mayo  	the code is still there exactly
08:25 	Q Linden  	I remember that we reenabled this a while back
  	Jonathan  	That are what my 2 jiras are about
  	Ann Otoole  	as long as we can be aware of the new method.I've personally relearned everything for SLv2.
  	  	didn'tkillme torelearn
  	Jonathan  	The old Inspect is now Object Details, down in Object Profile window
  	Cummere Mayo  	but it doesnt work well with attachments
08:26 	Jonathan  	Cummere, it will if my 2 jiras are taken up
  	  	I fixed that 2 months ago but they got put on hold
  	Q Linden  	So yes, I'd like to get wolf in on this discussion, now that we have him.
  	Oz Linden  	Ann... might it be a good learning tool if we added a Hint for this... the first time you open Object Profile it could popup a reminder that the details are there and describe whta they do?
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	I like that idea, Oz
08:27 	Gentle Heron  	Hints are almost always a good idea!
  	Ann Otoole  	sure. might help some. i hack away tilli figure it out.
  	Jonathan  	everyone please look at https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23944
  	JIRA-helper  	VWR-23944 Object Menu reorganization and enhancement
  	Cummere Mayo  	that would work though imo it would be better to make it a front level
  	Jonathan  	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23946
  	draconis.neurocam  	oh, i am sorry actually i did not realize it was still there but hidden in the object profile tab
  	JIRA-helper  	VWR-23946 Add the option to see object details when right clicking on another avatar
  	Jonathan  	note the attached images
  	Cummere Mayo  	I like jonathans solution much better
  	Q Linden  	Jonathan, thanks.
  	Cummere Mayo  	easier faster less confusing and less clicks
08:28 	Oz Linden  	ok... I think we've got the problem framed well enough to get some review going on solutions
  	Q Linden  	Let's get wolf on this and pursue it soon; I'm thinking when we get the build sprint going
  	  	right
  	  	let's move on
  	Jonathan  	Wolf is our new ui design member, he can evaluate these ideas
  	Oz Linden  	time to move to the next item?
  	draconis.neurocam  	yes
  	Cummere Mayo  	please
  	Oz Linden  	ecc-49
  	  	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/ECC-49
  	Jonathan  	that's an internal link
  	draconis.neurocam  	since 2.4 cloth deforms have not been viewable on other avatars
  	Cummere Mayo  	that looks like it should go to nyx's team but... they no longer have a usergroup
08:29 	Oz Linden  	clingy pants
  	Sera Lok  	wow that's a 1.xx thing too eh?
  	Q Linden  	it's public, though, jonathan
  	Sera Lok  	found its way into v2 yay
  	Q Linden  	we talked about this yesterday in our internal meeting
  	  	we're trying to get it some attention
  	Nea Fredriksson  	i added in the jira comments that this seems to cause avatar cloth effects to show on skintight clothes too
08:30 	draconis.neurocam  	until mesh comes out theres no way to have baggy clothing that looks semi decent, and non stiff
  	  	without it
  	Q Linden  	can we just say yes, we know, and we've escalated it?
  	draconis.neurocam  	ok
  	Ann Otoole  	are you sure that is not tied to something else like rebakes partially complete and pressing rebake starts the cycle again except the moment you press rebake it rezzes properly?
  	Oz Linden  	we did some checks yesterday, and rebake doesn't seem to help, Ann
08:31 	Q Linden  	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-17469
  	JIRA-helper  	VWR-17469 Cannot delete broken links
  	Q Linden  	doesn't consistently help :(
  	Jonathan  	I started to work on this--now I know how to make a broken link, but didn't figure out how to delete them yet
08:32 	Cummere Mayo  	dumb question but might this be a server side thing?
  	Oz Linden  	well, creating the problem is usually more than half the battle :-)
  	Jonathan  	no, it is done in the viewer
  	Q Linden  	jonathan should we move it to storm?
  	Jonathan  	yes
  	  	it is a definite problem, though occurs rarely
  	Cummere Mayo  	as i siad dumb question
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	wouldn't you delete them by taking the item off (or detaching) from current outfit and re-saving?
  	Ann Otoole  	no repro is kind of a problem there.
08:33 	Jonathan  	I will put in the repo
  	Ann Otoole  	people need tosend the stuff to the devs to try with
  	Cummere Mayo  	that doesnt work trilo
  	  	at least... not for me
  	Jonathan  	Trilo, what you said applies to a link, not a broken one
08:34 	Cummere Mayo  	ann the broken links i had were not easily or consistantly reproed
  	Q Linden  	jonathan, STORM-1002
  	JIRA-helper  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-1002
STORM-1002 Cannot delete broken links
  	Jonathan  	thank you Q
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	ok, I'll muck around with it again. The couple times I'd seen a broken link in my inventory, that's what got rid of it
  	Cummere Mayo  	q open mic
  	Jonathan  	You should be able to r click on a broken link and just delete it
  	Wolfpup  	i hear you q ans Oz
08:35 	Cummere Mayo  	anyways move on?
  	Q Linden  	ok, sorry about that, voice fail :(
  	Oz Linden  	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24136
  	JIRA-helper  	VWR-24136 Deprecate AllowMultipleViewers
  	Cummere Mayo  	please please please can we do this?
  	Q Linden  	so the problem is that I think if we do this it will break SLURLS
08:36 	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	please no, its usefull being able to run more than one viewer at once
  	F L I P  	Ya know, if you call someone and they don't accept within a certain amount of time, the call won't work even when they finally do accept. Not sure how relevant that is o.O
  	Cummere Mayo  	tank this will let you
  	  	easier
  	Q Linden  	what the bug is asking for is that it be the default
  	Oz Linden  	The question I've got is... is this potentially confusing to users who are not power-SLers?
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	tank this will let you. The idea is to have it always be true and get it off the debug settings list
  	Wolfpup  	actualy that has ben upgraded so that it is in the general tab of preferences
  	Cummere Mayo  	i really dont think so oz...
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	then its not being deprecated...
  	Q Linden  	the SLURLs work by starting a viewer and handing off the destination
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	I can't imagine that you'd try to run multiple viewers if you're not a power user
08:37 	Cummere Mayo  	q ive almsot never had an issue getting the surl to the viewer i want
  	Oz Linden  	but might you start more than one unintentionally?
  	Wolfpup  	actualy it is in the advanced tab of preferences
  	Oz Linden  	like with a slurl?
  	Jonathan  	If you click on a slurl and have a viewer running you get a teleport-to floater, right?
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	yeah, slurl links haven't worked for me in over a year
  	Cummere Mayo  	nope
  	  	it looks for one open
  	  	before it starts a new
  	Ann Otoole  	grumbles about wiki and the + instead of spaces
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	not for me, cummere... at least not in mac os
08:38 	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	well, ok, phoenix has this enabled by default, and rarly if ever have we had a support issue on it
  	Q Linden  	so this isn't a terrible idea, but nor is it a slam dunk
  	Oz Linden  	that spaces problem is different... and is fixed now except on Linux
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	so it might be alright in the official viewer to have it enabled by default as well
  	Cummere Mayo  	its one of the first 24 things im usually asked about by new rezis
08:39 	Ima Mechanique  	sOz soinstead of a "Sl is already running" message that happens currently, replace with a "Are you sure you want to open another viwer dialogue"
  	Cummere Mayo  	can /how do I run more then one viewer
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	that would be fine
  	Ann Otoole  	it is an option in preferences to run multiple viewers now
  	Q Linden  	why do new users want to run mor ethan one viewer?
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	same here, it's a popular topic in the macintosh users group as well
  	Oz Linden  	I've got a suggestion... if we wrote a test plan that included all the ways to launch SL and whether each should or should not start a new one....
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	alts
  	Oz Linden  	and agreed on that
08:40 	Cummere Mayo  	q becuase they found a reg api that allows them to make a new avi with a legacy name in most cases
  	  	and want to xfer stuff
  	Ann Otoole  	heck i reinstalled and slurls just get me adialog toassociate a program now
  	Oz Linden  	and then had someone turn on Allow Mutiple Viewers in t the current viewer and run through the cases
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	alts/photos/machinima
  	Q Linden  	ok, cummere, that makes sense
  	Oz Linden  	then we'd know if we've got a problem or not changign the default
  	Ann Otoole  	use case matrix hades
08:41 	Cummere Mayo  	(which should give you soem feedback to hand back to whoever about registration names too)
  	Q Linden  	good point :)
  	Oz Linden  	do we have a volunteer to write the test cases?
08:42 	Cummere Mayo  	-if- i find time this weekend
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	the only short term issue might be that sence user settings are inversse of the origonal, there might be some conflits there untill the user clears their settings file
  	Oz Linden  	if we have to, we could easily build a test viewer once we have a test plan
08:43 	Jonathan  	Is it in their privat settings file if they have never changed it?
  	Oz Linden  	but until we know what all teh cases are and what we want for each, there's not much point
  	Cummere Mayo  	Ill try ang get one together over the weekend. if i dont... remind me at scrum monday
  	Q Linden  	oh, if this is a binary setting, we literally can't change the default
  	  	we have to create a new setting with the opposite value and change the code
  	lufpleh Obstreperous  	thinks the present preferance check box is suffucient, little gain to be had by this
08:44 	Oz Linden  	or just change the code, if we find that we don't really need a setting
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	ok
  	  	i think currently its a bool
  	Q Linden  	yeah, probably
  	Cummere Mayo  	if its really not needed wouldnt it be awesome to strip it out ?
08:45 	  	unneeded code is a waste
  	Q Linden  	IF
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	^
  	Q Linden  	anyway, let's talk again after investigation
  	Oz Linden  	Next - VWR-24804
  	JIRA-helper  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24804
VWR-24804 Taking off part or all of a clothing/attachment set and then wearing another item often causes the the removed item(s) to reapear
  	Sera Lok  	begs the question in what case does a user NOT want to have the ability to run mult viewers... not so much why they would want it
08:46 	draconis.neurocam  	this was being looked at by andrew linden, it was mentioned at the server meeting yesterday
  	Ryu Darragh  	I use it when testing.
  	draconis.neurocam  	the reattaching issue
  	Ann Otoole  	I have never repro'd that one.
  	Q Linden  	sera, because most people don't have multiple logins
  	Ryu Darragh  	Multiviewer is usefol for content creators.
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	The only time I've had removed attachments revert is during periods of heavy server lag
  	Oz Linden  	moving on....
  	Q Linden  	it does feel like an advanced use case to me
  	Jonathan  	Multiple viewers is also useful to be on 2 grids at the same time
  	Sera Lok  	yes,, I use it alot.. that was my point^^ anyway..
  	Q Linden  	anyway....
08:47 	  	SH-999 is under active investigation
  	Ryu Darragh  	I've never had the attachment problem.
  	  	Even with 2.x
  	Q Linden  	so I think this is happening now
  	Cummere Mayo  	thats related but NOT the same issue
  	Q Linden  	not sure we need to say much more here, do we?
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	yes, it's been happening occasionally, think of it as rubber-banding on attachments
08:48 	Ryu Darragh  	Do others see these phantom attachments?
  	Cummere Mayo  	this occurs with any layer and doesnt always boot attachments, usually puts old clothing and attachments back on
  	F L I P  	I don't like that JIRA's use of the term "boots off" (presumably to mean "detaches") so close to the word "Jacket"...gets confusing, are we talking about boots or jackets?
  	Cummere Mayo  	and they arent phaontom everyone sees them
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	I believe so, but just like with rubber-banding, removing again usually resolves it
  	Ryu Darragh  	Any item, I think, Flip
  	Q Linden  	so if everyone sees them, feels like a server issue
08:49 	TriloByte Zanzibar  	it's definitely a server issue
  	Jonathan  	It was discussed in detail with Andrew
  	Cummere Mayo  	k well i dont have the ability to move to svc
  	Ryu Darragh  	And if not, is a client machine/connection problem?
  	Q Linden  	and both andrew and the SH team ar e on it
  	Oz Linden  	should I move this to SVC, Q
  	  	?
  	Q Linden  	yes, let's do that
  	lufpleh Obstreperous  	oskar & kitty barnet were discussing trying to repro this yesterday in beta group
  	Oz Linden  	next item is STORM-2
  	JIRA-helper  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-2
STORM-2 As a User, I want to set my own default views with specific UI layout so I can tailor my Viewer experience to the activities I'm most interested in.
08:50 	Cummere Mayo  	ild like to know what the palns are to take this?
  	Ryu Darragh  	Yummy ^.^
  	Ann Otoole  	can-o-wurmz?
  	Ryu Darragh  	I eat wurmz...
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	lol
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	the project build showed promise, but needed work
  	Cummere Mayo  	personally i think graphics movement prefs should be also similarly saveable
  	Q Linden  	ok, i'm gonna put a stop right here to saving floater states as part of this project
08:51 	  	we could bury this by adding too much
  	Ann Otoole  	well the default bottom bar buttons are newbieish already. wouldlove an advanced user setting that is the oppositeof that. (for instance)
  	Q Linden  	first step is just the positions and sizes
  	  	and presence
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	thats really helpful right there
  	Cummere Mayo  	right... and my understanding is we have that?
  	draconis.neurocam  	not for things on the sidebar, they are definitely only in one place
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	local chat width as well, I don't think that was included yet
08:52 	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	id like to see all the buttons on the bottom enabled by efault so new users know they exsist
  	Oz Linden  	Question for you alll.... what do you tihnk of the bottom bar buttons with icons in Firestorm, as opposed to the text labels?
  	Cummere Mayo  	oz I love firestorms ui
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	I prefer icons, more space efficient
  	Ryu Darragh  	I'm interested in trying multiple child windows for those of us with multiple monitors.
  	Ima Mechanique  	loved Firestorm
  	Ann Otoole  	i don't use tpvs except once in a while kirstens
  	Oz Linden  	I didn't ask a general question, Cummere
  	Cummere Mayo  	including their ability to make the annoying sidebar optional
  	Dil Spitz  	debug-floater also do not remember its pose as the statisics do also no
  	lufpleh Obstreperous  	fine forolder users, meaningless to new
  	Cummere Mayo  	bu the iocns are a +
  	  	smaller, sleaker, dont require translating
08:53 	Sera Lok  	prefers a choice or, if icon, mouseover text at least
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	if you allow different skins, like in FS, you can have different skins with different UI options
  	Ann Otoole  	i personally think allviewers should use the same iconography
  	draconis.neurocam  	if the images would make it possible to maybe move some sidebar things to the bottom bar i would be all for it
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	the one in 2.x with the little camera seems universally understood (and no need for localization, save for floating help/tooltip)
  	Q Linden  	based on bitter experience, you have to have some text for buttons, even if it's just a tooltip
  	Sera Lok  	i like being able to point to a named thing when helping newer residents, not an icon thingie i have to describe
  	Q Linden  	so you gotta localize that anyway
  	  	exactly, sera
  	Oz Linden  	focus people... this becomes impossible if everyone goes off on a separate tangent
08:54 	Ann Otoole  	*if* LL wanted a true skinnable UI then there is a lotof work to be done.
  	Q Linden  	we know, ann, and that's why storm 2 starts it
  	Cummere Mayo  	usually if they have tool tips on i can help them find icons
  	Ann Otoole  	like eqII etc
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	sere does have a point, and the main reason why we added skins with lables instead of icons fo rht ebuttons, despite it takes up more room
  	Oz Linden  	we're trying to bite off the pieces we have some hope of swallowing and that don't cause support confusion
08:55 	Q Linden  	right (*gulp*)
  	Ann Otoole  	LL should not support custom skins
  	TriloByte Zanzibar  	do you have a lot of support issues with the snapshot button, Oz?
  	Cummere Mayo  	we might not be able to get rid of ALL text but we could probably make more of them icons
  	Ann Otoole  	not support teamwise
  	Cummere Mayo  	like a map for the map button ><
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	if possible, perhaps have it optional to display lables or not?
  	Ann Otoole  	skinners must support their skins
  	Sera Lok  	shrugs.. i like text
  	Cummere Mayo  	and the almsot unviersal speak icon for the vc button
08:56 	Oz Linden  	Icons arent' the problem for support, TrioByte... fully skinning that allowed users to drastically rearrange the interface probably is
  	Ann Otoole  	don't be a skinner if you don't want topay the support time price
  	Q Linden  	and to sera's point, you have to have a name
  	  	for everything
  	  	even if it's not on the screen
  	Ryu Darragh  	Need to have either rollbacl system or a revert button :P
  	Cummere Mayo  	yeah but allot of that can be done in tool tips
08:57 	Q Linden  	anyway, icons on the bottom bar -- i sthere a jira for that?
  	Sera Lok  	true enough. i'm just thinking of new users already overwhelmed with images/icons
  	Oz Linden  	The problem arises when skins are shared... some newbie meets a power user, power user says "use this skin", newbie is now off the reservation with little help possible because support doesn't even have the skin
  	Ann Otoole  	if i made a real mmorpg ui then i would never ask LL's support staff tosupport it.
  	Ryu Darragh  	Yes.
  	Cummere Mayo  	amen ann
08:58 	TriloByte Zanzibar  	I see VWR-22599 for icons on bottom bar
  	JIRA-helper  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-22599
VWR-22599 Bottom bar icons only
  	Ryu Darragh  	You'd need to vette such skins like 3rd part viewers and that'd be a nightmare.
  	Sera Lok  	but you can bet people using it would be looking to LL to support it eh^^
  	Cummere Mayo  	oz... with all due respect... we dont send new users to support... we want them to get support
  	  	><
  	Oz Linden  	not helpful, Cummere
  	Ann Otoole  	LL's support would simply say "you are detected using a tpv UI. You must contact them for support. Goodbye."
08:59 	Cummere Mayo  	oz... support tells new residents "file a ticket"
  	Ryu Darragh  	I'm on a ressie support team and *we* need to know what viewer and have used it when we help newbies :P
  	Ann Otoole  	so we have a solid requirement for skin identification
  	Oz Linden  	which is a failure from the newbie point of view, so it's not a trap we want to leave lying around
  	Q Linden  	ok, so that's all the time we have....
  	  	all the time *I* have anyway
  	Jonathan  	Can the rest of the agenda carry over to next week?
  	Q Linden  	so thanks all
  	  	yes
  	Oz Linden  	thanks folks...good meeting
  	draconis.neurocam  	yes much thanks q and oz
  	Cummere Mayo  	wish would could make this twice weekly
  	Sera Lok  	thank you, will you be looking at the other items not reached today?
  	Ryu Darragh  	Thanks for being here, Q
09:00 	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	aww, i wanted to know whats going to be new in 2.6 :P
  	Dil Spitz  	thanks Q :)
  	Jonathan  	Sera, they will carry over to the next meeting
  	Temple Fiertze  	ANy help from anyone would be good for item 14
  	Ann Otoole  	tyhanks guys. i'm liking the new format.
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	thx for taking your time with us, oz and Q
  	Temple Fiertze  	this is a question that effects my RL job
  	  	thanks!
  	draconis.neurocam  	tank its 2.7 now, but you could easily download and try it
  	Sera Lok  	ok thanks Jonathan^^