Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.04.23

Simulator_User_Group
Prev 2013.04.16	Next 2013.04.30
== List of Speakers ==
Adamburp Adamczyk	Inara Pey 	Johan Laurasia
Hexapoda 	Kelly Linden 	Kitto Flora
Lares Carter 	Lucia Nightfire	Martinrj Fayray
Motor Loon 	Nalates Urriah 	Qie Niangao
Rex Cronon 	Simon Linden 	Sylvie Etoile
Tiberious Neruda 	Whirly Fizzle 	
== Transcript ==
[12:01] Simon Linden: Andrew is out today, so I can get started
[12:01] Martinrj Fayray: hello
[12:02] Johan Laurasia: I've missed the last year or so...lol
[12:02] Simon Linden: The main server channel was rolled this morning and AFAIK it's been pretty quiet
[12:03] Whirly Fizzle: The server deploy thread wasn't created this week o.O
[12:04] Simon Linden: It looks like the release notes aren't up there yet, but there will be a maintenance release on Magnum and I think another project on BlueSteel and LeTigre
[12:04] Motor Loon: wiki notes are updated I belive
[12:04] Nalates Urriah: YEah, I think they are
[12:04] Nalates Urriah: 13.04.19.274370
[12:05] Simon Linden: I think there's some discussion about what to put into those release notes
[12:05] Simon Linden: anyone have a link?
[12:05] Motor Loon: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Second_Life_Server/13
[12:06] Nalates Urriah: This is the fun one: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Second_Life_RC_BlueSteel/13
[12:06] Nalates Urriah: Experience Keys?
[12:06] Tiberious Neruda: what's that?
[12:06] Qie Niangao: Yeah... would love to see a draft of any docs about how that's gonna work.
[12:06] Motor Loon: keys that unlock ANY door on the grid °?°
[12:06] Simon Linden: right, I'm not sure what I can or can't say about those, but they may be coming soon
[12:06] Tiberious Neruda: well, anything's better than nothing
[12:07] Nalates Urriah: I assume they mean a part of the Experience Permissions system
[12:07] Simon Linden: I think that was also being discussed recently as those get finished
[12:07] Sylvie Etoile: Where do we stand on particle emitter muting plz?
[12:07] Qie Niangao: The sooner we know what to expect, the better we'll be able to test them. (XP stuff)
[12:08] Simon Linden: Our viewer release pipeline is still backed up, Sylvie, so those changes are waiting their turn
[12:08] Motor Loon: Good try Qie °?°
[12:08] Qie Niangao smiles as innocently as possible.
[12:08] Simon Linden: We're doing some testing and may get a project viewer out, which would allow you to test it and (I believe) let other viewers check out the source code
[12:08] Sylvie Etoile: ok ......... I'm just fed up with griefing lately lol
[12:09] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
[12:09] Motor Loon: Firestorm has a very neat derender feature Sylvie
[12:09] Motor Loon: I've killed a few particle emitter with it
[12:09] Simon Linden: This is right-click on a particle, and it kills the generator
[12:10] Qie Niangao: will that project viewer include the other (exciting) particle developments that are coming? the ribbons and gradients and I forget what else.
[12:10] Simon Linden: It's usually easier to find the particles than the emitter :P
[12:10] Sylvie Etoile: We've had a whole bunch of particle emitters dropped
[12:10] Tiberious Neruda: oh yeah...
[12:10] Rex Cronon: simon. it would be even better if there was a lsl function that did that:)
[12:10] Tiberious Neruda: I looked at that ribbon image... so who's got the Training Stage?
[12:10] Simon Linden: Hopefully yes, Qie ... I've been working on getting that chunk of code solid for the last few days. Unfortunately it's pretty easy to crash at this point and so it's not ready for consumption
[12:11] Qie Niangao: yum. thanks Simon.
[12:11] Sylvie Etoile: I can get stuff removed, it's muting stuff in the meantime for my users
[12:12] Simon Linden: yeah, and that's going to require this new code for the viewer
[12:12] Sylvie Etoile: Can I send you a NC Simon?
[12:12] Simon Linden: Sure, Sylvie
[12:12] Sylvie Etoile: ty!
[12:12] Tiberious Neruda: wait, what're gradients when it comes to particles?
[12:12] Simon Linden: We've tossed around a few ideas about blocking particles in other ways but definitely want to get these first steps out the door
[12:13] Lucia Nightfire: would also be nice if bans added to a parcel killed all particle emission and sounds from that owner's objects on or around said parcel, similar to how banned owner chat can't be seen by agents on the parcel
[12:13] Sylvie Etoile: I understand that, Simon
[12:13] Sylvie Etoile: I totally agree Lucy
[12:14] Sylvie Etoile: That is what was discussed on SLuniverse
[12:14] Simon Linden: Lucy - so when you actually ban someone, the server stops their particle emitters on that land?
[12:14] Qie Niangao: (Tiberious, sorry, my mistake. It's "Blending" not "gradients")
[12:14] Lucia Nightfire: no, but tahts what should happen, heh
[12:15] Lucia Nightfire: RESEND no, but tahts what should happen, heh
[12:15] Lucia Nightfire: would be nice if objects were not rendered as well, considering if their explicit imagery on megaprims or sculpt laggers, etc
[12:16] Lucia Nightfire: just throwing ideas out, heh
[12:16] Sylvie Etoile: Yes Simon, I can ban someone but their objects on neigbouring parcels still spew all over our land
[12:16] Simon Linden: I'm just trying to juggle the server vs. viewer sides of particles, which makes it an interesting problem
[12:16] Kitto Flora: Has anyone else noticed sims running scripts slowly, though stats shoqs no other lag or overload, and Spare Time is at a high number?
[12:16] Motor Loon: Not sure it'd be good to have that happen automatically... I'd rather be able to see a banneds persons objects left behind so I can clean them up proper
[12:17] Lucia Nightfire: you want spare time high, heh
[12:17] Kitto Flora: Yes, but I dont want scripts running at 20%
[12:17] Sylvie Etoile: No good Motor if stuff is other people's land
[12:17] Simon Linden: Sylvie - that's a case where the server can't stop that particle emitter, since it's on different land. For example, if Baker banned me from that next door plot, it shouldn't stop my bbq from smoking
[12:17] Lucia Nightfire: what I'm noticing is regions that stay up for more than 5 days that have moderate use of http seem to have caps failure early
[12:18] Lucia Nightfire: my region, Querqua is currently experiencign quasi caps failure atm, for any Linden that wants to check it, lol
[12:18] Kelly Linden: Kitto if spare time is high then scripts run should be at 99%
[12:18] Sylvie Etoile: Yes Simon but why should I have your smoke on my land?
[12:18] Simon Linden: but they're drawn in your viewer and might creep over into your land, or in the case of griefers, be really obnoxious
[12:18] Kitto Flora: Kelly: Precisely. But - it does not.
[12:18] Motor Loon: no good that way either... I can have multiple parcels of group owned land, no good for me if banning someone means I can't see the stuff they left on the parcels around me (which may also be mine)
[12:18] Kelly Linden: kitto: I'd be interested in example cases of that.
[12:19] Kelly Linden: kitto: I assume you are in the region when this happens
[12:19] Sylvie Etoile: Motor, Area Search should find stuff
[12:19] Kitto Flora: Kelly - then I need a method to reliably contact you fast - you have to come running to see.
[12:19] Motor Loon: And you can simple turn off particles too
[12:19] Kelly Linden: kitto: a screenshot would suffice, along with time, region name and host name.
[12:19] Kelly Linden: my email is easily guessable.
[12:20] Kitto Flora: Ah ok
[12:20] Simon Linden: I think in this case the new viewer feature that allows you to right-click on that particle and block the emitter will help
[12:20] Sylvie Etoile: Doesn't help other people if I have an event being griefed
[12:20] Kitto Flora: And yes I am in region - usually looking for why transport is failing
[12:20] Kelly Linden: it is possible it could be a reflection of a host performance issue.
[12:21] Motor Loon: but the server dont actually know where any of these particles are does it? It cant tell if a particle comes "into your parcel"
[12:21] Motor Loon: all viewer side
[12:21] Kelly Linden: that is correct motor
[12:21] Tiberious Neruda: oh, wait... I found that ribbon image again... heh
[12:21] Simon Linden: Right, the server just says where the emitter is, and what the particles are like
[12:21] Kitto Flora: OK kelly - I was imaginging something like a script engine throttle stuck, after a griefing event
[12:21] Motor Loon: I expect the viewer might have a hard time telling too
[12:21] Simon Linden: Drawing them is totally up to the viewer
[12:21] Whirly Fizzle: So the particle emitter just gets added to the standard block list?
[12:21] Lucia Nightfire: yeah, which is why I brought up based on banlist on the parcel you're on as an additional or alternative means
[12:21] Kelly Linden: kitto: I can't think of any script throttles that would act that way.
[12:22] Sylvie Etoile: If I could just turn off particel rezzing on a plot, it would help me
[12:22] Motor Loon: would be bad if you could control whats allowed on a parcel you dont own
[12:23] Simon Linden: The operation of stopping someone's particle emitters when they get banned makes sense to me ... at least I feel it might be something the server could do when you're kicking out a griefer
[12:23] Rex Cronon: it seems that after an grifieng event not all objects belonging to the griefer r cleared. some of them are still left. those left can cause other scripts to run slow
[12:23] Sylvie Etoile: It would protect an event or a plot until objects got removed
[12:23] Kitto Flora: One of the griefing tools is something that slows scripts to a crawl - some of the 'crashes' I've logged have really been that the script engine is down to like 15 for 5 minutes or more. The sim actually stays up.
[12:23] Simon Linden: But the viewer doesn't know anything about the ban
[12:23] Qie Niangao: Would it be as good to just have everything outside the parcel un-rendered, including particle emitters and the particles they emit?
[12:24] Simon Linden: What do you mean by "down to 15", Kitto?
[12:24] Kitto Flora: s/15/1%/
[12:24] Simon Linden: percent of scripts run?
[12:24] Kitto Flora: Yes
[12:24] Motor Loon: and what if the griefer bans YOU from his parcel.... then all your particle emitters stop working on your own land too?
[12:24] Motor Loon: (assuming the greifer owns the parcel next to yours or something similar)
[12:24] Simon Linden: No Motor, it would have to be just the ones on that parcel
[12:25] Lucia Nightfire: no motor, lol
[12:25] Simon Linden: Otherwise Baker will ban me and turn off my bbq
[12:25] Sylvie Etoile: I'm seeing more people leaving mainland, Simon, cos they are less vulnerable in a private sim
[12:25] Motor Loon: but you can just return those that are on your parcel
[12:25] Lucia Nightfire: its sort of like the avatar invisibility thing, but with objects
[12:25] Adamburp Adamczyk agrees with sylvie
[12:25] Adamburp Adamczyk: I did
[12:25] Kitto Flora: Your particle ban has to be client-side - anylising partile position relative to parcels.
[12:25] Lucia Nightfire: or avatar privacy, wth it is
[12:25] Simon Linden: That makes sense to me ... mainland is inherently open
[12:26] Lares Carter: How would it stop the particles? Permanent removal of the particle attributes for the prim? What about 'no modify' content?
[12:26] Lucia Nightfire: yeah, sadly you can't remove spam from your neighbors 0 return time parcel if it isn't encroaching
[12:26] Sylvie Etoile: Flying and sailing have to be run on mainland
[12:26] Adamburp Adamczyk: I lived mainland 4 years, rarel a problem until recently
[12:26] Lucia Nightfire: so your guests will be stuck seeing whats left behind
[12:26] Motor Loon: just saying we already have client side way to block particle emitters... as I understand they're asking for a serverside solution and I cant imagine how that should work without giving room for massive abuse too
[12:26] Qie Niangao: Lucy, that's what I was thinking. Just make the contents outside the parcel (including particles emitting from them) invisible, as a parcel option.
[12:26] Lucia Nightfire: which is what I deal with almost daily
[12:27] Sylvie Etoile: Stop particles in the same way as chat
[12:27] Sylvie Etoile: That would be fine by me Qie
[12:27] Motor Loon: but the viewer will have a hard time doing that with particle... it's not the same as chat at all
[12:27] Adamburp Adamczyk: doesn't muting an object, also mute /block particles Simon?
[12:27] Adamburp Adamczyk: eg if i muted your bbq, would tha stop em seeing the smoke too?
[12:28] Motor Loon: (it does not)
[12:28] Adamburp Adamczyk: ah, okay
[12:28] Qie Niangao: well, but Motor, it somehow does that to the contents of a parcel, from outside, if the parcel has that invisibility switched on (whatever it's called)
[12:28] Motor Loon: but you can derender it if you viewer has that feature
[12:29] Motor Loon: once the emitter is derendered, the particles goes away
[12:29] Lucia Nightfire: or if you mute the owner
[12:29] Simon Linden: That makes sense
[12:29] Adamburp Adamczyk: yes, fs is good liek that
[12:29] Simon Linden: So would a hot-key combination to turn off all particles
[12:29] Sylvie Etoile: Simon, I have 100k sq m of land, have bought up surround plots to protect my port, and I can still get griefed by something a long way away
[12:29] Hexapoda: Block do not work with visual spam and if agent do sit or use animation it is hart to derender them, https://my.secondlife.com/kennylex.luckless/snapshots/517189ba043eed1ebb000001
[12:30] Kitto Flora: ctrl-alt-shit-=
[12:30] Motor Loon: yep
[12:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[12:30] Whirly Fizzle: Bl;ocking an avies attachment by name that's spewing chat spam also doesn't block the chat anymore.
[12:30] Tiberious Neruda: but of course, that turns off ALL particles, right?
[12:30] Motor Loon: yep
[12:30] Simon Linden: hey, nice. I wonder if I'll remember it when I need it
[12:30] Tiberious Neruda: sometimes that's not a good idea
[12:31] Motor Loon: but problem is solved until your event is over
[12:31] Hexapoda: : ctrl-alt-shit-= do not work on all keyboards.
[12:31] Johan Laurasia: works for me
[12:31] Kitto Flora: Burgers on the grille, their particles will spill, into the land I own, it makes me want to groan...
[12:31] Hexapoda: In sweden = is in 0 key
[12:31] Hexapoda: sso : ctrl-alt-shit-= is : ctrl-alt-shit-0
[12:31] Hexapoda: shift
[12:32] Qie Niangao: I liked it better the other way
[12:32] Motor Loon: lols
[12:32] Rex Cronon: nice shortcut:)
[12:32] Qie Niangao: the one without the "f" could have lots of uses.
[12:32] Kitto Flora: you gotta give an f
[12:32] Motor Loon: advanced menu/rendering types/particles
[12:32] Qie Niangao: :p
[12:33] Johan Laurasia: Well, I must say, I'm really liking how SL materials is turning out
[12:33] Kitto Flora: Any progress on tackling border crossing problems?
[12:34] Simon Linden: I saw a few side-by-side images on someone's feed showing materials and they looked really good
[12:34] Motor Loon: I did 20 crossings just before this meeting on my bike, zero issues and very smooth
[12:34] Qie Niangao: Oh, so... do we happen to know whether regions will need to be restarted to activate / de-activate Server Side Appearance / Baking ?
[12:34] Johan Laurasia: My teleports have been really fast, like 2 seconds or so
[12:35] Lucia Nightfire: reminds me
[12:35] Simon Linden: I don't know the details on how they will throw the switch, Qie
[12:35] Qie Niangao: okay, thanks Simon.
[12:35] Kitto Flora: I have been trying riding a train (Loco + tender) on SLRR - all end up with me sitting dead on a border, and vehicles wandering off down the track. Vehicle crosses, Av does not - and is mostly disconnected
[12:35] Lucia Nightfire: why was there a double click teleport delay in the viewer?
[12:35] Lucia Nightfire: *added
[12:35] Lucia Nightfire: 2+ seconds
[12:35] Lucia Nightfire: I forget the actual current value
[12:36] Adamburp Adamczyk: Kitto, ditto. I found that at Wengen
[12:36] Simon Linden: I _assume_ we have to have an overlap with both systems running at the same time, so it would likely be part of the regular roll-outs
[12:36] Qie Niangao: well, guess we have a little while before anybody flips that switch, however it's done.
[12:37] Johan Laurasia: I upgraded my system last week.... quite a performance boost for SL
[12:37] Whirly Fizzle: Lucia, do you mean te world view freezing now when you double click TP?
[12:37] Simon Linden: yeah, it really needs to get out and working first :)
[12:38] Lucia Nightfire: TELEPORT_LOCAL_DELAY <--I mean this
[12:38] Inara Pey: Oz estimates around 2 through 8 weeks, Qie, depending on initial testing. Was also of the opinion that followigng contrained testing on Agni, the switch may simply be thrown without going via an RC progression
[12:38] Qie Niangao: Ah, interesting. Thanks Inara.
[12:38] Inara Pey: constrained*
[12:39] Lucia Nightfire: but yes, Whirls, the viewer freezes every dctp or dc minimap or tp2 agent
[12:40] Whirly Fizzle: If its what I think you mean, its a side effect of (http://hg.secondlife.com/viewer-release/commits/a0fb4c5d3c022e3286b527923c13c738993d502f
[12:40] Whirly Fizzle: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-1537 (Fix for SH-3074 causes freeze when double-click teleporting )
[12:40] Kitto Flora: I got no dc tp delay
[12:41] Lucia Nightfire: http://jira.phoenixviewer.com/browse/FIRE-8721 <--heres teh FS jira request to remove it
[12:41] Kitto Flora: Permission Violation on https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-1537
[12:41] Lucia Nightfire: as it is in NaCl
[12:41] Lucia Nightfire: v1 viewers don't have that delay either
[12:41] Whirly Fizzle: ahhh different issue
[12:42] Lucia Nightfire: its friggin annoying as hell
[12:42] Whirly Fizzle: Cinders already fixed it ;)
[12:42] Lucia Nightfire: I know
[12:42] Lucia Nightfire: can't wait for 4.4.1 or teh next beta, heh
[12:42] Whirly Fizzle: Ill give you a test build
[12:42] Tiberious Neruda: 4.4.0 is out now, right?
[12:42] Motor Loon: yeah
[12:42] Tiberious Neruda: wait
[12:42] Tiberious Neruda: that's a bug IN 4.4.0?
[12:43] Lucia Nightfire: I'm still waiting to see which viewer rex upgardes to, placing all bets, lol
[12:43] Motor Loon: if it is, I dont really feel it
[12:43] Rex Cronon: :)
[12:44] Tiberious Neruda: I probably need a new system myself... runnin' on 'bout 5-year old hardware
[12:45] Motor Loon: Probably depends if it was state-of-the-art 5 years ago °?°
[12:45] Lucia Nightfire: Kelly, did you want to look at my region to see if theres an issue related to the http project with the caps like issues going on there before I have support reset it?
[12:45] Kitto Flora: Get a new pooter - they are cheap and fast now
[12:45] Johan Laurasia: I just upgraded to an i5 3470k ivy bridge 4 core processor, 16 GB 1600 Mhz DDR3 and a solid state drive.....
[12:46] Johan Laurasia: that, and a GTX 570 does the trick
[12:46] Nalates Urriah: Sales of PC's are down 14% this year. So we should see more price drops.
[12:46] Johan Laurasia: thank you windows 8
[12:46] Motor Loon: people are buying those stupid smart phones instead... idiots
[12:46] Johan Laurasia: and iPad
[12:46] Sylvie Etoile: and tablets
[12:46] Tiberious Neruda: yeah
[12:47] Johan Laurasia: they're not really idiots if they do light stuff like web browsing and email
[12:47] Kitto Flora: The i effect ;)
[12:47] Kelly Linden: I don't think so Lucy
[12:47] Tiberious Neruda: my old man put together a system for a family friend (with the friend's money, mind you) that I DROOLED over, for less than $700
[12:47] Johan Laurasia: an iPad is more than good enough for that, and alot of great games too
[12:47] Adamburp Adamczyk bought a smart phone as old phone it somewhere at the bottom of the River Tees
[12:47] Nalates Urriah: I play with an iPad. It is pretty nice but its not going to replace my work computer.
[12:48] Johan Laurasia: I'm lovin' my new system... it boots in 9 seconds
[12:48] Tiberious Neruda: and that includes new case and all
[12:49] Johan Laurasia: 5 words... get a solid state drive
[12:49] Qie Niangao: Apropos nothing... been thinking that sim owners might value control of what gets download bandwidth priority, attached vs unattached content... particularly Mesh and textures. In major events like Fantasy Faire and (soon) SL10B, it would be fine if avatars rezzed slowly if at all, giving preference to getting the land content downloaded.
[12:49] Motor Loon: SSD are super nice, much recommended
[12:49] Sylvie Etoile: Not very cheap in the UK yet
[12:49] Adamburp Adamczyk doesn't get why so many darn apps want location/contacts access etc when there's no logicol reason mind you
[12:49] Tiberious Neruda: still really expensive, right?
[12:50] Sylvie Etoile: yep
[12:50] Johan Laurasia: yeah, still pricey compared to mechanical drives, but they've broken the $1/Gig barrier here... I got a 256GB drive for $188 bucks
[12:50] Tiberious Neruda: so no SSD for me
[12:50] Sylvie Etoile: Yes, I want more land control lol
[12:50] Motor Loon: not really too bad, espicially if you can live with a 128GB ssd for your boot drive
[12:50] Tiberious Neruda: unless I get a SMALL one and use it only for the OS
[12:50] Simon Linden: Qie - I can understand that. Sometimes it would be nice to have more knobs and dials to adjust region performance and loading
[12:50] Johan Laurasia: well, I plan to pick up a 3TB mechanical drive on payday for $135 for storate
[12:50] Johan Laurasia: storage*
[12:51] Johan Laurasia: just the OS and major installs like SL, photoshop, blender, will be on the ssd
[12:51] Sylvie Etoile: Simon, the more tools you can give landowners the better imho
[12:51] Qie Niangao: I've heard a lot of complaints about wildly varying download performance at Fantasy Faire... just thinking could be something for Monty to keep in mind, if it's the different avatar attachments that cause the variation.
[12:51] Sylvie Etoile: We are way too vulnerable on mainland atm
[12:51] Hexapoda: Is it posible for LL to do a Local Server that can be used to test mesh? I did test SimOnAStick but itt can not calculate PE.
[12:52] Lucia Nightfire: its nice that physics timing is down grid wide thanks to the PF fix, but net timing still can still eat alot of overall timing whenever agents enter a region with many agents wearing mesh
[12:52] Motor Loon: use betagrid Hexa
[12:52] Lucia Nightfire: net timing seems to just overrun everything
[12:52] Hexapoda: I some time is away from Internet.
[12:52] Qie Niangao: the thing is, land content complexity is limited by Land Impact, but a single avatar can wear what would be a sim's worth of Land Impact and nothing the sim owner can do about it.
[12:53] Qie Niangao: (I don't mean griefing, specifically... just elaborate avatars)
[12:53] Simon Linden: There's not much you can do offline, Hexapoda
[12:53] Johan Laurasia: might be nice to have a way to block teleports or walking onto the land if PE is > a set value
[12:53] Motor Loon: Thats true Qie... both for LI and scriptcount... would be nice to have some builtin control of that
[12:54] Motor Loon: It's usually THOSE EXCACT people whining about lag the most too °?°
[12:54] Hexapoda: Well, SimOnAStick was great and did alow me to test mesh and so when I was helping friends.
[12:55] Qie Niangao: It's always been a potential problem, but... seems download lag is a real problem lately, perhaps since Mesh... and Monty is kinda looking into that with the http stuff, so thought it was timely.
[12:55] Tiberious Neruda: usualy, I just use beta grid for that
[12:55] Tiberious Neruda: testing meshes, I mean
[12:55] Hexapoda: But only problem was that it not could use PE so I do not know how optomized mesh I made is
[12:55] Simon Linden: True, Qie - that's a really tough problem. One of the barriers to doing anything is that most people don't know how to fix it. So if the typical experience is you go buy some new bling for your AV, and then you might get blocked going into an area, but are clueless how to fix it
[12:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[12:55] Hexapoda: I has not do that test.
[12:55] Tiberious Neruda: but I'd -love- to be able to have local content mesh so I don't have to relog twice
[12:56] Motor Loon: They'd learn quickly Simon once they found they couldn't get to their favorite places °?°
[12:56] Johan Laurasia: well, the block could be followed by a message stating you have to lower your PE
[12:56] Tiberious Neruda: now, would you make it based on ARC?
[12:56] Sylvie Etoile: Simon, a lot of people don't even know how to configure autoreturn
[12:56] Motor Loon: Providing they got a well put error °?°
[12:56] Qie Niangao: yeah, I'm kinda allergic to the blocking access thing... but if the sim could de-prioritize avatars compared to the land content, when appropriate, it could be a win.
[12:56] Tiberious Neruda: or would it be based on the LI of the attachments?
[12:57] Sylvie Etoile: Ignorance should not be an excuse lol
[12:57] Tiberious Neruda: 'cause, honestly...
[12:57] Tiberious Neruda: if you're wearing a mesh that looks like...
[12:58] Motor Loon: I'd probably never put a LI limit on my public lands, but a script usage limit I'd do... block anyone with more than 400 scripts or >20MB of memory usage or something
[12:58] Tiberious Neruda: ...this, in WIREFRAME mode, no less, you're causing other peoples' graphics cards to cry
[12:58] Qie Niangao: but it's not just mesh anyway... Land Impact doesn't even count textures, but all that geometry and image data compete for the same network pipe.
[12:58] Kitto Flora: We did that Av attached script limit in Arkhamville and Glacier ISland puzzle sims.
[12:58] Sylvie Etoile: You can do that already can't you, Motor?
[12:59] Motor Loon: only with silly scripted objects and it doesnt block them from entering, it's not a solution I'll use
[12:59] Kitto Flora: The sims ran well as a result. Some visitors had aproblem figuring out how to comply
[12:59] Johan Laurasia: Well Qie, so it comes down to where do we draw the line on graphics cards, or... if a card is having a hard time keeping up, the settings should be lowered.
[12:59] Qie Niangao: no, not rendering Johan...
[13:00] Qie Niangao: I'm talking about getting the data out the sim's network interface.
[13:00] Rex Cronon: u can make your gfx card run better is u draw everybody else as blobs:)
[13:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[13:00] Lucia Nightfire: yeah, determining excessiveness on mesh works is like the same with certain scripted apps
[13:00] Rex Cronon: and their attachements too:)
[13:00] Johan Laurasia: how does that stress a gfx card?
[13:00] Tiberious Neruda: or the poor guy I tried to help who had hair made of 255 sculpts...
[13:01] Motor Loon: urh... death to sculptie hair
[13:01] Tiberious Neruda: (over a HALF A MILLION triangles in just his hair alone)
[13:01] Kitto Flora: It seems that theres an ongoing problem with prioritizing sim -> client messages, and reliability of some messages.
[13:01] Motor Loon: probably with a script in each hair link
[13:01] Tiberious Neruda: and he wondered why his framerate was so shoddy...
[13:02] Kitto Flora: Old scripted hair is a big problem.
[13:02] Tiberious Neruda: two words: Resize. Scripts.
[13:02] Qie Niangao: Johan, maybe we're talking across each other, sorry. I'm worrying about what makes the huge event sims so very slow to rez regardless of client bandwidth. If you watch the texture console, stuff just ain't coming over that pipe out of the sim.
[13:02] Kitto Flora: Old scripts are too
[13:02] Lucia Nightfire: I do wish prim owner's list interfacing was the highest priority message though, never fails that I can't return a griefer's spam due to the lag with everything else going on and teh prim owner's list is taking eternity to open
[13:03] Johan Laurasia: yeah, legacy stuff is what cause LL to start improving things with mesh and adding LSL functions
[13:03] Johan Laurasia: now we need a way to weed out legacy stuff
[13:03] Motor Loon: nods
[13:04] Motor Loon: Hunting season is on ,-)
[13:04] Tiberious Neruda: only problem is, you all at LL have to be willing to start breaking some of the oldest things
[13:04] Kitto Flora: Adding LSL fuctions has helped alot - New train is 10% of the load of old one. Scripts down from 42 to 5.
[13:04] Rex Cronon: breaking things is not so good:(
[13:04] Lucia Nightfire: start depreceating functions after making revisions
[13:04] Lucia Nightfire: llMakeFire2() <weak ref
[13:05] Johan Laurasia: No, it's more of an educational thing, alot of people just aren't savvy enough to understand why their 255 prim 255 script hair is causing them lag
[13:05] Motor Loon: which they'd learn quickly after being blocked from a few places
[13:05] Kitto Flora: Exactly Johan
[13:05] Tiberious Neruda: it might suck, but such is the price of progress. if the replacement is demonstrably BETTER, people will adapt
[13:05] Kitto Flora: And - people are still selling that old stuff?
[13:05] Lucia Nightfire: many people just want to look good, nto care about the scripts or prims it takes to get there, lol
[13:06] Rex Cronon: the viewer should say: hey girl. u know your hair is so havy is like wearing a hippo on your head?
[13:06] Tiberious Neruda: heheheheh
[13:06] Johan Laurasia: So we need ways to inform residents that an item they're wearing is outdated or just poorly made new stuff that's causing lag on the sim
[13:06] Lucia Nightfire: girl: I don't see no hippo, you crazy, yo
[13:06] Qie Niangao: that's what we need: a viewer with ATTITUDE !
[13:06] Motor Loon: just tell her the hair is superugly... she'll run right out and buy a new one then
[13:06] Sylvie Etoile: I've started using our website more to try to get info out to people
[13:06] Simon Linden: This is just an idea, but what if some of the AV load info was available in LSL? We already can get script info, but not rendering
[13:06] Tiberious Neruda: that could be a good thing
[13:07] Sylvie Etoile: Yes Simon, it could
[13:07] Qie Niangao: Simon, I think that would help... at least as a kind of "social" lever
[13:07] Tiberious Neruda: something like possibly 'llGetAvatarRenderWeight(key agent)'?
[13:07] Motor Loon: well, we can get it I think can't see, via script... ? just needs a database call
[13:07] Kitto Flora: Like llGetARC(key av)?
[13:07] Simon Linden: That way someone could build a performance-nagging device. It could be obnoxious, I know, but this whole problem is kinda based aroudn how to educate and nudge people in the right direction
[13:07] Rex Cronon: so i can point a scripted thing at somebody and tell me how hard to load/draw them is?
[13:07] Lucia Nightfire: I want to know who is casuing the impacts on net timing if applicable, similar to OBJECT_SCRIPT_TIMING, please make a OBJECT_NET_TIMING llGOD() constant
[13:07] Tiberious Neruda: precisely
[13:07] Simon Linden: Yes Kitto, something along those lines
[13:08] Kitto Flora: Maybe - but ARC is a client-side impact - get a better vid crad and ARC dont matter
[13:08] Tiberious Neruda: heheh... man, talk about similar thinking, Kitto
[13:08] Kitto Flora: Attached scripts impacts the whole SIM
[13:08] Simon Linden: Yes, and ARC is kind of fuzzy too
[13:08] Lucia Nightfire: ARC would work if OBJECT_STREAMING_COST returned a value for agents
[13:08] Tiberious Neruda: but yet there IS a system component to ARC< isn't there?
[13:08] Qie Niangao: One thing I wonder... if some extension of SSA/B could actually generate imposter sprites, and dump those to viewers, in lieu of the whole complex avatar (sort of a step up from swirly-cloud-thing)
[13:08] Johan Laurasia: I think the ability to block access to a parcel based on ARC would be a good thing, it would force people with high ARC to reexamine their avatar and learn more about how to resolve the problem. Also, some training early on when avatars are just signing up might be helpful to.
[13:08] Lucia Nightfire: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7585
[13:09] Tiberious Neruda: I mean, the viewer doesn't just generate the numbers out of thin air, right?
[13:09] Rex Cronon: u know. the viewer should set the size of an avatars rear based on how "heavy" they are:)
[13:09] Simon Linden: ARC also varies ... anything that's scripted can change your attachments and adjust that, or maybe emit particles
[13:09] Kitto Flora: llSetParcelAvScriptLimit(integer number) would be FAR more useful and effective
[13:09] Simon Linden: So it could be odd if you were right near a threahold
[13:09] Kitto Flora: "You cannot enter parcel - you have too many scripts attached"
[13:09] Simon Linden: well, you can nag them now if you want with a script
[13:10] Johan Laurasia: maybe delay it so that you have to break the arc threshold for a certain length of time
[13:10] Johan Laurasia: so if you spike above the limit for an instant, it won't trigger
[13:10] Kitto Flora: We do on puzzle game sims - or did.... but theres too many places they can still go (and lag) so they dont fix their problem attachments
[13:10] Qie Niangao: Kitto, sometimes it's scripts, but in crowded venues, it's often just too much to download (and then, eventually, too much to render)
[13:11] Simon Linden: I need to get going
[13:11] Qie Niangao: Thanks Simon.
[13:11] Simon Linden: Thanks everyone for the good discussion today
[13:11] Johan Laurasia: Thanks Simon
Simulator_User_Group
Prev 2013.04.16	Next 2013.04.30