Scripting User group/Transcripts/2011.04.04

== List of Attendees ==
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== Transcript ==
[09:00]	 	sets RenderUnloadedAvatar to FALSE
[09:00]	:	anyone having troubles starting group chats? had my third group oday "fail to start session", although I seem to get ones that are already started fine
[09:00]	:	hello kelly
[09:00]	:	Kelly's sitting on the couch with the proletariat?
[09:00]	:	I guess I had that TRUE for troubleshooting and forgot to set it back.
[09:00]	:	Void, yes, since about late 2007 ;)
[09:01]	:	Hi Kelly
[09:01]	 	waves @ Kelly and everyone else
[09:01]	:	lol Ardy
[09:01]	:	Had inventory problems earlier today. And Verkin had trouble logging in. General slowdowns.
[09:01]	 	pulls his nose out of the mapAPI and *waves*
[09:01]	:	Good morning.
[09:01]	:	Good morning!
[09:02]	:	Hope everyone is doing well
[09:02]	:	Qie, LL's or SignpostMarv's javascript?
[09:02]	:	LL's for now
[09:02]	:	im doing well, are you kelly?
[09:02]	:	Doing pretty good.
[09:02]	:	Hi tehKellz, doing okay
[09:03]	:	I'm alive. Good enough for now.
[09:03]	 	off item 1 on the todo list.
[09:03]	:	I never got a chance to write up a how to on getting to the scipting backlog.
[09:03]	:	Did you fix lag and solved world peace already? :)
[09:03]	:	Always make sure not to die first thing in the morning. Then the rest of the day can go as planned.
[09:03]	:	Just the world peace. Lag is harder.
[09:03]	:	hahaha
[09:04]	:	:D
[09:04]	:	hehe
[09:04]	:	meh. RL lag is much worse, and the region crossings are dreadful.
[09:04]	:	but I thought Strife faought lag with efficiency (pun)
[09:04]	:	at least there are no region crossing TSA patdowns in SL ;)
[09:04]	:	fought*
[09:05]	:	Latif: Yet
[09:05]	:	checking for excess scripts latif?
[09:05]	:	hehe
[09:05]	:	lol it could come
[09:05]	:	Last week I introduced the scripting jira project
[09:05]	:	Sir, we need to put those scripts on the table for inspection
[09:05]	:	And when your airplane falls apart in mid-flight in SL you just rez another and move on.
[09:06]	:	Ah, scripting is not in SVC jira anymore?
[09:06]	:	There is a new one!
[09:06]	:	Note the big board here.
[09:07]	:	is there an easy way to port existing jiras filed in SVC?
[09:07]	:	we can move them i believe void
[09:07]	:	Void: That is a trick. We can take two approaches.
[09:08]	:	First: People on the 'trusted' list can move them. However it is tricky becuase it means you could move anything in web/svc/vwr into any project you can create new issues in.
[09:08]	 	is all for manually moving ones that are still active, rather than just moving anything with a scripting component
[09:08]	:	So, one possibility is that I take requests to be on the trusted list, and hunt you down if you abuse it.
[09:09]	:	i can be trusted, im polite and play nice
[09:09]	:	I'll willing to take that chance.
[09:09]	:	The second is that anyone can create new issues in SCR and link it to the SVC issue and we can close the SVC issue as a dupe. It is less pretty but anyone can do it.
[09:09]	 	is on the trusted list ;)
[09:09]	:	well consider this a request to be on the list... I'm not likey to abuse it... I don't muck about as much in Jira as I used to
[09:09]	:	*cough*
[09:09]	:	Is the Contributor's Agreement a pre-req for "trusted" ?
[09:09]	:	no
[09:09]	:	that is a separate list
[09:09]	:	coolness
[09:10]	:	so people with CA aren't automatically trusted either?
[09:10]	:	correct
[09:10]	 	thinks she's trustworthy, and she has a CA
[09:10]	:	CA, that the TPV/patch lists right?
[09:11]	:	though i'm somewhat unlikely to really go policing the jira.
[09:11]	 	thinks that self promotion is silly and it should be up to others to decide if he is
[09:11]	:	the jira surely logs whose been moving what, right? so the notti can be spanked.
[09:11]	:	Yeah
[09:11]	:	I think it does
[09:11]	 	thinks draconis is silly and just doesn't like to take responsibility
[09:11]	 	bites her lip
[09:11]	:	All right, there seems to be enough interest we will try the trusted route for now. The idea would NOT be to police jira though just to move issues that are active or you are interested in to the SCR project
[09:11]	:	.oO(sorry)
[09:12]	:	I can still move issues during my script triages
[09:12]	:	trust me or move SVC-1167 for me
[09:12]	:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1167 
[#SVC-1167] Script function to return objects
[09:12]	:	i did see that creation in script was available last i looked though
[09:12]	:	Kelly, what's the criteria if an issue is movable?
[09:12]	:	It isn't about self promotion.
[09:12]	:	Heh, I was about to mention that one, Liisa.
[09:13]	:	It is a scripting issue and I haven't already moved it back to SVC.
[09:13]	:	(ie no move wars)
[09:13]	:	ok, fair enough
[09:13]	 	sends hugs to Liisa: I love that Jira and forgot to mark it in my watch list
[09:14]	:	If you are interested send me an email with your resident name. kelly@lindenlab.com regulars to these meetings will likely get on the list.
[09:14]	:	if they request. Others I will be more hesitent to add.
[09:14]	:	(speaking of hugs: yay for llRegionSayTo() ... in case we haven't "yay"d about it here yet)
[09:15]	:	yay ^^
[09:15]	:	Qie vas ist ?
[09:16]	:	direct obj-to-obj comms, in-sim
[09:16]	:	using listen event
[09:16]	:	llRegionSayTo(key id, integer channel, string msg) will trigger a listen in the object with that id and a listen on that channel
[09:16]	:	(prim-to-prim, actually)
[09:16]	:	if avatar all attachments
[09:17]	:	something we have been needing for years, and very deserving of a yay
[09:17]	:	k that scripted return is now SCR-19
[09:18]	:	Entering god mode, level 200
[09:18]	:	?
[09:18]	:	ooo so basically in-region IM service for objects?
[09:18]	 	likes
[09:18]	:	I see Darling it trying to make a complex product out of a simple request.
[09:18]	:	Wasn't that an April Fools joke?
[09:19]	:	i think it was andrew being funny
[09:19]	:	What was an april fools joke?
[09:19]	:	April Fools is all about putting a delicious meal under someone's nose, then smashing their face into it, and throwing it in the trash.
[09:19]	:	And for some reason people wonder why there's so much offense going around.
[09:20]	:	at the end of andrews meeting on friday, he made it sound like llregionsayto was an april fools joke
[09:20]	:	lol, evil
[09:20]	:	lol, I thought *that* was the april fool's joke. a meta-joke.
[09:20]	:	right
[09:20]	:	The joke about joking, yeah.
[09:20]	:	Anyway, I don't know.
[09:20]	:	I just don't like cruel jokes.
[09:20]	:	awww, stickman, sounds like you've been burned by the more cruel type of prank
[09:20]	:	llRegionSayTo, Kelly. Is it real?
[09:20]	:	I'm not in on the joke, I can only make the first half of Andrew's friday user group.
[09:21]	:	I do my best not to be bitter. But it comes with old man territory, I think.
[09:21]	:	It is real. I do not know what version it will be out in.
[09:22]	 	claps
[09:22]	:	So the joke was that it was a joke.
[09:22]	:	Cute.
[09:22]	:	Also, good news!
[09:22]	:	Hm. this jira bot script looks like it should work for SCR issues, dunno why it isn't.
[09:23]	 	like that type of joke... very much likes the idea of that function
[09:23]	:	I think the only bit left to code is the attachment behavior
[09:24]	:	Does that project require login?
[09:24]	:	I didn't think so, but maybe. Let me check.
[09:24]	:	speaking of jira and scripting... on the LSL_Portal, the function pages have a link to search jira for bugs related to the function.... anyone up to editing it remove the bad component ID?
[09:24]	:	ah, it does. I will fix that.
[09:24]	:	do you have that auth type set to none
[09:24]	:	vol 0.2
[09:25]	:	I hate the LSL wiki template. I never have time to understand it.
[09:25]	:	sup kelly
[09:25]	:	what you doin later?
[09:25]	:	Hey Kelly :>
[09:25]	:	down for yiff?
[09:25]	:	the lsl wiki itself is good, i just dislike the lack of highlighting for some constants
[09:26]	:	Kelly, normally I'd ask Strife, but I rarely see the cabbit anymore
[09:26]	:	vol 0.1
[09:26]	:	he may be the only one that understands it
[09:27]	:	i see this guy wears a hat
[09:27]	:	Bonjour!
[09:27]	:	and a doggie is hiding here
[09:27]	:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlSetPrimMediaParams most of that as an example
[09:27]	:	So this week was supposed to be a triage week.
[09:28]	:	but I'm still getting this jira setup right.
[09:28]	 	hypes SVC-868 at every opportunity
[09:28]	:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-868 
[#SVC-868] llGiveInventoryList should be able to work gridwide
[09:28]	:	hm. I guess we should look at the triage list anyway and I can move things to the SCR project
[09:28]	:	who
[09:29]	:	unfortunately that one isn't gonna happen any time soon.
[09:29]	:	a http://www .
[09:29]	:	who?
[09:29]	:	ya boy
[09:29]	:	Inventory give is a complicated thing. Cross region inventory gives from an object wrap the entire give into an IM. Currently that system does not support multiple objects.
[09:29]	 	really wish it did work.... oh so mane problems solved
[09:30]	:	That system has its own problems, especially for reliability and the IM cap
[09:30]	:	But there would have to be a fair bit of re-architecting to make the list version work grid wide.
[09:30]	:	Doesn't agent-agent multiple inv offer work cross regions?
[09:31]	:	(it also uses IM system)
[09:31]	 	(stickman): So a cross-region inventory give would be subject to the 1023 character limit if the same method was used, or does it bypass the standard text size limit?
[09:31]	:	Honestly would rather spend the time making inventory and money functions that returned success codes or gauranteed success
[09:31]	:	yeah
[09:31]	:	I like that idea.
[09:31]	:	thought maybe there was some sort of backdoor approach to piggyback on the MagicBox-less Marketplace delivery. But perhaps not.
[09:32]	:	success codes would be nice... but wouldn't that be hard with queued deleveries?
[09:32]	:	Magicbox-less delivery works because we trust the markeplace to be inside the firewall and with direct access to inventory API layers.
[09:32]	:	how would the sucess code be given? which event?
[09:32]	:	Void: never said it was easy.
[09:33]	:	"Magicbox-less delivery works " <-- Tell that to the customers of the jira of failed deleverious.
[09:33]	:	Ok, well, that is outside my domain Techwolf. :)
[09:33]	 	smiles
[09:33]	 	(stickman): Right, would success codes be on function call? That seems rather immediate for a "dataserver"-like function call.
[09:33]	:	I was just glad to get them to stop using xmlrpc and email.
[09:34]	:	hehe
[09:34]	:	It would probably have to be in an event, and probably a new one.
[09:34]	:	lol that is something to celebrate
[09:34]	:	And it would have to be new function calls.
[09:34]	 	(stickman): That seems reasonable in this case, though.
[09:34]	:	deprecate the old ones?
[09:34]	:	Maybe.
[09:34]	:	Need to have two new events, one for object was delevered and one for seeing if the person ever came online to accecpt delevery.
[09:35]	:	I'd also like to see some form of llTransact - a give inventory and take money combo.
[09:35]	 	(stickman): Heh. Get an event call three months later.
[09:35]	 	(stickman): Carrier pidgeon got lost.
[09:35]	:	would it really have to be a new function call? after all the current ones can't be used inline so if they suddenly start popping up return codes the script isn't going to notice
[09:35]	:	async can be hard
[09:35]	:	that would be very cool as well kelly, money related lsl stuff is very sparse
[09:35]	:	Yeah, I'm not really sure how to handle the offline agent case well.
[09:36]	 	(stickman): Force the avatar online to accept the transaction. Problem solved.
[09:36]	:	lol
[09:36]	:	haha
[09:36]	:	llgivemoney can return a success/fail sence it works with offline avatars.
[09:37]	:	perhaps some indication if it was successfull queued or over the queue limit?
[09:37]	:	frankly, that one has been stable for a while
[09:37]	:	(or perhaps lower concurency isn't tasking the backend muck)
[09:37]	 	(stickman): The event can return TRANS_SUCCESS, TRANS_FAILURE, and TRANS_OFFLINE. So you can flag things like that and deal with them manually, at least.
[09:38]	:	but I haven't seen llGiveMoney() fail in a while
[09:40]	:	Ok, for adhoc triage - anyone have another issue they'd like us to discuss?
[09:41]	:	Do you have the possibility to inspect running sim's script?
[09:41]	:	In what way?
[09:42]	:	I have this highly non-reproducable problem with scripts "forgetting" they have debit permission and I'm unable to tell how and why they end up in such sitution
[09:42]	 	(nielarcher): would someone drop a NC on me with what I've missed please?
[09:42]	:	i was wondering if running "failed" script like that would provide any clue
[09:42]	:	I'd like for LEAP-4 to get fixed but I think you already told me that is a viewer issue.
[09:42]	:	i'll do that Niel
[09:42]	:	I don't really have a way to debug that.
[09:43]	 	(nielarcher): thanks oobscure
[09:43]	:	latif come to think of it i think i have seen that as well
[09:43]	:	still very unreproducable
[09:43]	:	yeah that is a viewer bug and I'd like it fixed too
[09:43]	:	it's not viewer
[09:43]	:	i think he was talking to ardy latif
[09:44]	:	ah
[09:44]	:	sorry
[09:44]	 	(stickman): By the way -- I know better accounting is on the timeline, but is there a plan for execution time stats on a script? Find out how efficient it is CPU-wise? Right now an entirely empty sim with the stat panel, or an estate manager, are the only ones who can get a guess on that.
[09:44]	:	yeah sorry. The only advice I have for that case is what you could already think of - add your own event tracking and IM/email you when you lose permission
[09:45]	:	If you give me a region and timestamp for when it gets lost in a jira I can take a quick look sometime - but it has to be a recent event for there to still be good logs.
[09:45]	:	Kelly, related: how hard is having many timers on the script engine?
[09:45]	:	object uuid would help too
[09:45]	:	Latif I think it is more about what the timers do.
[09:46]	:	Except for extreme cases
[09:46]	:	i just didn't want to have 300 scripts with timers periodically check debit permission
[09:46]	:	like every 5 min
[09:46]	:	that probably isn't that bad, at least for a while.
[09:46]	:	that's (only) 1 check a sec on averag =X
[09:47]	:	I wonder if it fires a run_time_permissions event when it is lost or not
[09:47]	:	no
[09:48]	:	you *sure*?
[09:48]	 	wonders if it might not be better to just check those permissions each time before they are needed
[09:48]	:	Void, I do that, but then its too late
[09:48]	:	ah
[09:48]	:	right
[09:50]	:	All right.
[09:51]	:	coming back to what Stickman said, would be nice to have some ability to debug script perfomance in the viewer
[09:51]	:	I have mono2-performance up on aditi now. Please test it out if you have time. Morris and a few sandboxes are running it (and lots of other regions actually, if it isn't mesh there is a good chance it is mono2-performance)
[09:51]	:	I"ve been out of the loop, is there a roadmap to the mono upgrade/mone rez fix?
[09:51]	:	I don't think we will see a lot of improvement on debugging scripts until we move past LSL
[09:51]	:	Techwolf: When it looks good on aditi for a couple weeks it will move into the RC pipeline.
[09:52]	:	I'm looking into SCR-18 this week hopefully, and I still need to look through to see if any other issues were files
[09:52]	:	filed
[09:52]	:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SCR-18
[09:53]	:	that one may be a case of aditi being older hardware or it may be something else.
[09:53]	:	silly question....M2 performance upgrades put verision back on (or somewhere over) the horizon?
[09:53]	:	I don't understand the question
[09:54]	:	versioning* sorry, still not awake
[09:54]	:	our library API versioning?
[09:54]	 	nods
[09:54]	:	that is gonna happen in whatever language comes after LSL, but not in LSL
[09:55]	:	So, it is definitely after the mono2 upgrade.
[09:55]	:	but probably by a fair bit.
[09:55]	:	so "not in sight" k =)
[09:56]	 	(stickman): Time's almost up.
[09:56]	:	4 minute warning!
[09:57]	:	I noticed something of interest for scripters today in https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Special:RecentChanges
[09:57]	:	lots of new pages in an apparent effort to re- categorize library scripts
[09:57]	:	? I'm not seeing it?
[09:58]	 	(stickman): All the "cat" pages near the bottom, I think.
[09:58]	:	all those Cat-pages yes
[09:58]	:	Oh by Palisade?
[09:58]	:	inteerseting
[09:58]	:	I wonder why he isn't just using the categories functionality
[09:59]	:	placeholders maybe? all those are in a category atm
[09:59]	:	oh I see
[09:59]	:	Why collect complex examples here? Well, there are many scripts that have become buried in the old forum Scripting Library, the 2010 library archive, or the current LSL Scripting Library; were lost with the death of the early scripting forums; or sit idle in inventories that could be useful and should be more accessible.
Other scripters may be in the same situation. This wiki is a well-suited medium for a script library. Feel free to add your scripts to the script library by creating new pages for them and linking to those pages here. Note that there are many more scripts in the LSL Library here, but you can't get to them if you don't know they exist, because they are subpages now, instead of an automatically updated category. Good luck searching.
[10:00]	:	( https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:LSL_Categorized_Library)
[10:01]	:	All right, I'm out of time for today.
[10:01]	:	thanks Kelly
[10:01]	:	thanks for the meeting Kelly
[10:01]	:	take care kelly
[10:01]	:	take care everybody
[10:01]	:	thank you for your time Kelly
[10:02]	:	I'll get the last bugs worked out of the jira SCR project, email me if you want on the trusted list, and I'll write up a how to on finding the backlog.
[10:02]	:	thanks for having us Kelly
[10:02]	 	vows to find that squeeky duck sound and throttle it's owner
 
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