Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2012.10.02

Simulator_User_Group
Prev 2012.09.28	Next 2012.10.05
== List of Speakers ==
JayR Cela 	Kelly Linden
Kennylex Luckless	Lares Carter
MartinRJ 	Nalates Urriah
Qie Niangao 	Sera Lok
Simon Linden 	Tankmaster Finesmith
Theresa Tennyson 	Tiberious Neruda
Whirly Fizzle 	
== Transcript ==
[12:06] Theresa Tennyson: HI SImon!
[12:06] Simon Linden: Hi everyone - sorry to be late
[12:07] Kennylex Luckless: Btw, why is SL so strange latest time? When I am in Zoe or Clementina Natoma iss not visible even it is there?
[12:07] Simon Linden: There was a longer line than expected at the sandwich place
[12:07] Lares Carter: Hey Simon.
[12:07] Kennylex Luckless: I shakk leep Simon company today.
[12:08] Qie Niangao: Hi Kelly
[12:08] Simon Linden: so .... some news ... we didn't have rollouts today, which was as planned
[12:08] Simon Linden: Tomorrow all 3 of the RC channels get new server versions
[12:09] JayR Cela: ---------------------- Sim Meeting ---------------------
[12:09] Simon Linden: One is very similar to what we have today, with a fix for some future compatibility coming down the pipe. It's nothing really exciting, but required so things won't break
[12:09] Simon Linden: One has some back-end work that should help regions run better on new hardware
[12:09] Simon Linden: And the third is a maintenance release, which has Baker's support for loading the list of members in very large groups
[12:10] Nalates Urriah: Do you know which is going where yet?
[12:10] Simon Linden: The maintenance one should be on Magnum
[12:10] Simon Linden: I think the first one is on LeTigre, but am not sure
[12:11] Theresa Tennyson: Is Magnum the designated high-risk channel?
[12:11] Nalates Urriah: So, Baker's Groups will be on Magnum?
[12:11] Simon Linden: It has more regions than most, so it's a better test
[12:12] Simon Linden: Yes Nal
[12:12] Nalates Urriah: Thx.
[12:12] Simon Linden: That's it for my news ... Kelly, did you have anything?
[12:13] Simon Linden: He must be AFK - I'm guessing not since we're working together :P
[12:13] Simon Linden: OK, so the virtual table is open for questions, issues or ideas
[12:14] Nalates Urriah: Any new info on the Sudden Lag discussed here: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Major-Increase-in-Instant-SIM-LAG-amp-Crash-during-large-events/m-p/1684143#M7647
[12:14] Kelly Linden: I don't have anything to report right now.
[12:15] Simon Linden: No news on that, Nal ... I can think of a few things that might cause it, but it's all a theory at this point
[12:15] Nalates Urriah: Some are thinking it is a griefer attack. But, I haven't seen that confirmed.
[12:16] Qie Niangao: the Mainland thing *was*... but not sure if Toysoldier's event venue things were related or not
[12:16] Simon Linden: Right - it could be something from a griefer being rezzed, or perhaps doing some sort of physics bomb to overload collisions
[12:16] Qie Niangao: I hope the offending object got taken in for inspection... it shouldn't be able to do what it was doing to the scheduler.
[12:17] Simon Linden: I'm suspicious of pathfinding lag at this point ... we know it causes some lag events, but I'm not sure how visible they are. What I've seen are more occasional slow frames, not an event-disrupting stall
[12:17] Simon Linden: So that sounds like something else
[12:18] Nalates Urriah: It does. It seems to be hitting more events and that it hits with a music stream switch seems odd for a griefer attack.
[12:18] Qie Niangao: Nal, I don't think it was music stream switch, but rather a specific artist being targeted.
[12:19] Simon Linden: The music stream switch _shouldn't_ hurt the servers much - that's a pretty small update that has to go to all viewers, which normally would be very fast
[12:19] Nalates Urriah: I thought when the artist took orver or gave up the stream, the region went laggy. Did I misunderstand?
[12:20] Simon Linden: On the viewer, however, I can imagine it causing problems, but since there is such a variety of different viewers and versions, it wouldn't affect them all the same
[12:20] Simon Linden: ... I think
[12:20] Qie Niangao: It may be that the stream switch was what a griefer used to activate something targeting an artist. But this is all speculation--and on security stuff, even.
[12:20] Tankmaster Finesmith: audio streams don't even go through the simulator, do they?
[12:21] Tiberious Neruda: it would have to, wouldn't it? In order to have all the clients update the location?
[12:21] Tankmaster Finesmith: how long does it normally take for a region to rebake the navmesh?
[12:22] Simon Linden: That's true, Qie- there could be something odd on the stream itself
[12:22] Tankmaster Finesmith: hiya baker
[12:22] Simon Linden: tankmaster - that's right, audio streams do not go through the simulator, just the URL for it is passed around from the region
[12:23] Qie Niangao: (I actually meant something more primitive: just listening for a stream change as a cue for a manual activation of Very Bad Stuff.)
[12:24] Simon Linden: On the rebake - I'm not sure of the time, but it should be fairly short
[12:24] Simon Linden: some number of seconds, I believe -- but Andrew or Falcon would know better
[12:24] Nalates Urriah: Is there anything in the viewer that listens for a parcel stream change?
[12:25] Simon Linden: I'm pretty sure there is ... the stream controls will change, I think
[12:25] Simon Linden: If it changes, it should stop playing the old one, and depending on your prefs, maybe start playing the new one
[12:25] Tiberious Neruda: hmmmm
[12:26] Qie Niangao: (There's llGetParcelMusicURL() but only for scripts owned by the landowner)
[12:27] Nalates Urriah: When artists change the stream it is common to have to stop and start the stream... and they are usually killing the stream on their end when stopping... so I can't tell.
[12:27] Simon Linden: Right ... I don't think all of that should cause the sim to lag, however
[12:29] Nalates Urriah: I don't see how it could. But, there are a bunch of people seeing it as the trigger.
[12:30] Tankmaster Finesmith: whats the webpage with upcoming rollouts for this week?
[12:30] Nalates Urriah: ...or at least a consistent coincidennce
[12:30] Tiberious Neruda: how could the thought of 'one performer being followed and griefed' come up as a possible solution? I don't see any indication that this was the same performer being mentioned
[12:30] Theresa Tennyson: Toysoldier mentioned it happend twice to the same artist on different days.
[12:30] Simon Linden: This is the forum post for deploys: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2012-10-01/td-p/1687341
[12:31] Tankmaster Finesmith: thx
[12:31] Object: Hello, Avatar!
[12:31] Tankmaster Finesmith: Hello, script
[12:31] Simon Linden: hmm, I'll see if I can find logs for one of those events .. .it looks like he has accurate times and places
[12:32] Tiberious Neruda: but he -also- said he saw it twice on the -same- day, apparently different performers
[12:33] Simon Linden: The other thing that happens as the performer changes is a lot of people leaving and arriving. That really puts a lot of stress on the system, so I can imagine something there getting overloaded
[12:34] Tankmaster Finesmith: maybe what we need to do is store all the user info on every region, so its already there when the person TPs to it :P
[12:34] Tiberious Neruda: LOL!
[12:35] Tankmaster Finesmith: what could possibly go wrong with that? :D
[12:35] Simon Linden: haha
[12:35] Qie Niangao: aha! we've just been too timid with the megaregion scale! one sim to rule them all--sharding is for wimps
[12:36] Tiberious Neruda: ROFL!
[12:36] Theresa Tennyson: And then have the whole grid downloaded to everyone's computer so it would run faster.
[12:36] Tankmaster Finesmith: there you go
[12:36] Tankmaster Finesmith: I mean, who doesn't have at least 10 extabyts of free storage?
[12:36] Simon Linden: yeah, maybe we should just pre-load all textures on your viewer
[12:36] Kelly Linden: dang, I only have 6.
[12:37] Tankmaster Finesmith: if the viewer was 64bit, it might actually handle that, simon
[12:37] Nalates Urriah: Do all the assets... its only like 200 terabytes...
[12:38] Simon Linden: I really hope the viewer texture cache gets smarter ... there have been a lot of ideas bounced around for that
[12:38] Tankmaster Finesmith: just integrate squid...
[12:39] Tankmaster Finesmith: but yeah, improving the fetching and caching would help a lot
[12:39] Theresa Tennyson: Is the HTTP library project mostly viewer side or is it server side too?
[12:40] Tankmaster Finesmith: first fase is all viewer side
[12:40] Tankmaster Finesmith: next several fases will include server side changes
[12:40] Simon Linden: It's being applied to the viewer first, but we definitely want to use it on the server too if it works as expected
[12:41] Simon Linden: That lag mentioned earlier could very well be due to the server's http layter
[12:41] Simon Linden: *layer
[12:41] Tankmaster Finesmith: I think the goal is to use things like keepalive, and then using 2 texture fetches at a time will be plenty to load the region, instead of 8 that it is now
[12:42] Simon Linden: Right, the old code it not very smart about re-using connections and such. Performance should be better with that optimized. I hadn't heard about the texture fetch changes but I know they've been measuring them
[12:43] Tankmaster Finesmith: monty has been keeing th PTV devs up to date on his work
[12:44] Simon Linden: ah, that's good to hear ... has any of that code been released yet? I haven't followed it closely
[12:44] Tankmaster Finesmith: yes
[12:44] Tankmaster Finesmith: http://hg.secondlife.com/viewer-http
[12:45] Tankmaster Finesmith: and ive merged it to firestorm here: http://hg.phoenixviewer.com/phoenix-firestorm-http/
[12:46] Simon Linden: nice - have you noticed any improvements?
[12:47] Tankmaster Finesmith: for me, not really, but ive got a really stable router and a fast internet
[12:47] Tankmaster Finesmith: others have noticed more of an improvement, especually on dsl
[12:47] Nalates Urriah: I see a visible change using the SL Proj HTTP...
[12:47] Simon Linden: yeah, it would most likely show up on slower connections where each of the old re-connects were more costly
[12:48] Tankmaster Finesmith: the routers that are used for FIOS apparently are not low end and can handle the load from SL fine
[12:48] Nalates Urriah: I'm on COX Cable w/3 yr old router... 30mb/sec and it made a difference
[12:49] Simon Linden: The sim will never get near that bandwidth, but I think now if you use http textures that's not counted against your bandwidth limits
[12:49] Qie Niangao: The early FiOS routers would lock-up occasionally from SL use. :p
[12:50] Simon Linden: We've found a lot of those "failed to grant" errors were due to routers and DNS issues
[12:50] Tankmaster Finesmith: heh, speaking of monty... https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SH-3149
[12:51] Tankmaster Finesmith: yes, we get a lot of DNS issues in support, having the user switch to something like google's DNS servers seems to help some users with connectivity issues to SL
[12:51] Simon Linden: yeah, I've always wondered about how the 10k limit got in there
[12:51] Tankmaster Finesmith: more is more gooder, right?
[12:51] Whirly Fizzle: Im convinced it was a typo and supposed to be 1k ;D
[12:52] Tankmaster Finesmith: lol
[12:54] Tankmaster Finesmith: we apparently need some pathfinding mesh crickets here :D
[12:55] Simon Linden: There is some code there to try and adapt the bandwidth to what the connection supports, but since that relies on failed packets to back off, its best to set yours to what you know the connection can handle
[12:55] Tiberious Neruda: if the sim's capped at 3000, let us SET up to 3000
[12:55] Simon Linden: Does anyone know of some good pathfinding content that's out recently?
[12:55] Tankmaster Finesmith: tib, the viewer actually will go up to 1.5x whever you select
[12:56] Simon Linden: I'd love to see some inspiring critters or something using it
[12:56] Tankmaster Finesmith: so if you select 2k, itll go up to 3k
[12:56] Tankmaster Finesmith: why, idk
[12:56] Theresa Tennyson: Have you seen the new VKC Bloodhound, Simon?
[12:56] Qie Niangao: Simon, might ask Michael what the Moles have been up to with Pathfinding.
[12:56] Simon Linden: No, I haven't Theresa
[12:56] MartinRJ: we have a horde of sofas .. I don't think that counts
[12:57] Kennylex Luckless: I try to meke random walking meeting charis thet start to walk randomly is some say Linden or Moles.
[12:57] Simon Linden: Bizarre stuff can be fun in SL :)
[12:57] MartinRJ: looks funny though. My friends stopped me when I experimented with a horde of houses..
[12:57] Theresa Tennyson: The VKC people brought one to the Beta grid. He was pretty cool.
[12:57] Simon Linden: Maybe we should make these chairs use pathfinding
[12:57] MartinRJ: : )
[12:57] Kennylex Luckless: :-D
[12:58] Theresa Tennyson: The roof here isn't walkable : (
[12:58] Tiberious Neruda: I'm waiting for when we can actually make caves and such under the ground >:3
[12:58] Nalates Urriah: Easy to fix
[12:58] Simon Linden: I haven't adjusted anything around here for pathfinding
[12:58] Tankmaster Finesmith: :o
[12:58] Simon Linden: I should probably learn to do that right :P
[12:58] Tiberious Neruda: I think that could be something awesome
[12:59] Theresa Tennyson is shocked -- SHOCKED, that a sim owner hasn't done any pathfinding updates.
[12:59] Tiberious Neruda: wouldn't the change int he way ground is handled allow that in theory?
[13:00] Simon Linden: I think it's a step in the right direction, Tiberious, but there are some other nasty details
[13:00] Tankmaster Finesmith: you mean you havent yet disabled PF? :P
[13:00] Simon Linden: Like llGround() would be interesting
[13:01] Tiberious Neruda: hmm...
[13:01] Tiberious Neruda: true
[13:01] Theresa Tennyson: You now have wild pandas on the hill, Simon...
[13:01] Tiberious Neruda: ...what exactly does llGround do when used?
[13:02] Simon Linden: There's a bunch of other simulator code that assumes the ground doesn't have caves
[13:02] Tiberious Neruda: I mean, on the server side
[13:02] Simon Linden: haha, I like 'em!
[13:02] Tankmaster Finesmith: oh, any updates on depricating old V1 APIs?
[13:02] Tiberious Neruda: does it look from a certain height all the time, or from the object's Z position?
[13:03] Simon Linden: yes, Tiberious - there's code that won't let your AV go underground, for example
[13:03] Tiberious Neruda: yeah
[13:03] Tiberious Neruda: tried to 'fall off' the edge of the world... looks almost like yu can do it now
[13:04] Simon Linden: Like if you TP into a regoin with Z of 0 ... it looks for the ground height at that X,Y point and puts you above it
[13:04] Tiberious Neruda: and how would it freak out if there were two ground positions at that location?
[13:04] Whirly Fizzle: Heh I see the pandas doing PATHBUG-183
[13:04] Simon Linden: That's it for time today ... thanks everyone for coming
[13:05] Nalates Urriah: Thx Lindens
[13:05] Tiberious Neruda: try to split the av into two?
[13:05] Tankmaster Finesmith: take care simon, see you friday!
[13:05] Simon Linden: well, that's the interesting question - it would have to do something right if there was a cave or multiple layers of ground at that spot
[13:05] Nalates Urriah: bye all
[13:05] Sera Lok: thanks for the meeting^^ take care
[13:05] Tankmaster Finesmith pokes baker
[13:05] Tiberious Neruda: or just place above the lowest one/closest to desired Z position
[13:07] Tiberious Neruda: that, or possibly which one is closest
[13:07] Simon Linden: I'd _love_ to support that, however - it's a cool idea, just going to be complicated in some cases
[13:07] Tiberious Neruda smiles
[13:08] Tankmaster Finesmith: mesh terrain would be nice... make proper caves
[13:08] Simon Linden: Thanks for the chat and ideas ... take care, everyone. See you next time
Simulator_User_Group
Prev 2012.09.28	Next 2012.10.05