AWG2 Chat Transcript

The second meeting of the Architecture Working Group was held on 18 March 2008 using the Voice client. This chat transcript is provided for your reference. To hear the audio file of the whole meeting, go to Tao Takashi's video recordings: part 1 and part 2.
The meeting topic was a review of Second Life Grid Open Grid Protocol Draft 1. See also the AWG2 Agenda.
== Chat Transcript ==
* [8:00] Zero Linden: Okay
* [8:00] Tao Takashi: current? probably 
* [8:00] otakup0pe Neumann: Morning Adam. Or evening / afternoon
* [8:00] Zero Linden: touch the AWG pyramid for the agenda
* [8:00] Adam Xinpeng: Gooooood morning
* [8:00] Tao Takashi: or the SLGPOP or what it was called, I cannot even remember ;-) 
* [8:00] Gary Grainger: Good morning
* [8:00] Gary Grainger: It's 10:00 AM CST here
* [8:00] Object owned: by Zero Linden gave you 'AWG2 Rough Agenda' ( ).
* [8:00] Prospero Linden: Gary : it's 10:00AM CST everywhere
* [8:00] Prospero Linden: :) 
* [8:00] Prospero Linden: CDT
* [8:00] Prospero Linden: actually
* [8:00] Gary Grainger: right
* [8:00] Gary Grainger: just recently
* [8:00] Prospero Linden: is in Nashville, so it's 10:00AM for him.
* [8:00] Tao Takashi: 4pm here
* [8:01] Adam Xinpeng: Hey, is it possible to turn off the 'chatting' sound in SL?
* [8:01] Gary Grainger: yeah Chicago too
* [8:01] Prospero Linden: Adam : you can do it if you add "/0" at the beginning
* [8:01] Gary Grainger: / test
* [8:01] otakup0pe Neumann: also you can disable it in debug settings... playTypingAnimation = false
* [8:01] Prospero Linden: "/0" works too... and doesn't show the / :) 
* [8:01] Zha Ewry: grins "or by emote typing"
* [8:01] Gary Grainger: / okay thanks
* [8:01] Gary Grainger: tacky :p
* [8:01] Adam Xinpeng: Prospero: Oh, no because I have my volume up max to hear people on voice
* [8:01] Tao Takashi: or turn down the Sounds volume slider
* [8:01] Zha Ewry: grins "and you can then do // " afterwards
* [8:02] Gary Grainger: sorry, you mean multithreaded audio?
* [8:02] Prospero Linden: has the opposite experience.... he can listen to audio and read text, but with two audio streams going, he gets confused.
* [8:02] Tao Takashi: Marketing!
* [8:02] Gary Grainger: / yeah I got that, same problem here
* [8:02] Bluewave Ogee: /was the notecard with agenda distributed here already? :-) 
* [8:02] Gary Grainger: / im not a really good multitasker
* [8:02] otakup0pe Neumann: heh
* [8:03] Gary Grainger: / so can I test my mic out real quick?
* [8:03] Prospero Linden: Zero : steal the parcel for the duration of the meeting
* [8:03] Gary Grainger: / i havent used it on sl yet
* [8:03] Prospero Linden: Put it back to Gov. Linden at the end
* [8:03] Tao Takashi: Gary: yes, better now than later :) 
* [8:03] Gary Grainger: / what do i press?
* [8:03] Neas Bade: / sounds like a good option for the client to be able to turn off certain sounds :) 
* [8:04] Bluewave Ogee: whoever Gary? :-) 
* [8:04] Gary Grainger: / haha
* [8:04] Gary Grainger: / guy on the far left with the black spikes
* [8:05] Zha Ewry: / me loves "questions which can only be answered yes"
* [8:05] Prospero Linden: What you really need is a microphone object with a trailing cord so you can walk back and forth and "work the crowd" stanup comic style.
* [8:05] Hamilton Linden: lol
* [8:05] Prospero Linden: Where can we buy those things?
* [8:06] Adam Xinpeng: Bugger. >_>
* [8:06] Tao Takashi: Adam!!!!
* [8:06] Tao Takashi: ;-) 
* [8:06] Prospero Linden: headphones ftw
* [8:06] Adam Xinpeng: Hang on getting a headset
* [8:06] Nadine Neddings: Someone call for an exorcism!
* [8:06] Prospero Linden: would do it, but his charms are all o'erthrown
* [8:07] Adam Xinpeng: Just relogging, be back in a moment.
* [8:07] Tao Takashi: Zero is breathing ;-) 
* [8:07] Prospero Linden: Which is the group for the meeting?
* [8:07] Zha Ewry: loves the mute button on the headset
* [8:07] Prospero Linden: Zero, stop breathing!
* [8:07] otakup0pe Neumann: yeah zero stop breathing. ;) 
* [8:08] Nadine Neddings: ROFL
* [8:08] Adam Xinpeng: done
* [8:08] Prospero Linden: Last minute group-additions for people here not in the group?'
* [8:08] Tao Takashi: smile for the camera! :) 
* [8:08] Tao Takashi: live stream at 
* [8:09] Saijanai Kuhn: is anyone sending via the group> I have yet to see a message from it
* [8:09] Liana Linden: /Saijanai, I'll send a test message in a min.
* [8:10] Prospero Linden: Jussi has no Voice
* [8:10] Saijanai Kuhn: everyone afk
* [8:10] Prospero Linden: Jussi : enable Voice
* [8:10] Hamilton Linden: he could type
* [8:11] Jussi Hudson: hmm my mic is very bad sorry:(
* [8:11] Jussi Hudson: / i listen:)
* [8:11] Harleen Gretzky: no mic, just hear to listen
* [8:11] Bluewave Ogee: /I'm Leslie Jarmon, faculty, Univ. of Texas at Austin, and co-founder of the Educators Coop in SL, first long term residential community for educators and researchers
* [8:12] Milo Linden: no mic, im just milo, here to take a nap lol
* [8:13] Milo Linden: kids
* [8:13] Prospero Linden: Bustraphadon!
* [8:13] Nadine Neddings: I'm at work, no mic...just here to watch and add to the lag. ;) 
* [8:13] Prospero Linden: Adam, turn down your input gain....
* [8:13] Adam Xinpeng: Skip over me
* [8:13] Zha Ewry: has her headset around her neck ;-) 
* [8:13] Adam Xinpeng: I'll come back
* [8:13] Adam Xinpeng: Just will fix mic
* [8:14] Zha Ewry: / also getting viscious skpping
* [8:14] Prospero Linden: same
* [8:14] Prospero Linden: distorted... peaking
* [8:15] Tara5 Oh: / 
* [8:15] *(Elite Dance: Plus Max)* whispers: v.2006(v1.0H)
* [8:15] Prospero Linden: YOu wouldn't hear that in real life :) 
* [8:16] Adam Xinpeng: His Mic is busted
* [8:17] Adam Xinpeng: Haha, same as me.
* [8:17] Prospero Linden: turn down input gain
* [8:17] Prospero Linden: still noisy
* [8:18] Tao Takashi: Gorgon Zola would be a nice name
* [8:19] Prospero Linden: By the way, on the off chance that a griefer manages to crash the sim, everybody wait a few minutes and log back in.... I'll coordinate with whoever has the GPS and will get the sim back as soon as possible.
* [8:19] otakup0pe Neumann: real beaches or prim beaches
* [8:19] A group: member named Liana Linden gave you AWG2 Rough Agenda.
* [8:19] Neas Bade: heh
* [8:22] otakup0pe Neumann: i'm not watching my screen so i'll miss any text. wrists are killing me so i'm yoyo'in while listening.
* [8:22] Gary Grainger: / i havent
* [8:22] Liana Linden: /Liana Linden-Holmberg. Program manager on open source.
* [8:22] Gorgon Smit: My mic might not work. I'm Lasse, realXtend client programmer
* [8:24] Gorgon Smit: no I don't think it will work :) 
* [8:25] Jussi Hudson: / jussi one of the founders of realXtend:)
* [8:25] Jussi Hudson: / no mic:)
* [8:25] Moreno Blackburn: hallo to all
* [8:26] Tao Takashi: of course we are awesome
* [8:27] Gary Grainger: / open environment
* [8:28] Prospero Linden: There are 27 people in the Sim right now, for what that's worth
* [8:28] Gary Grainger: /i vote for a raise hand feature
* [8:28] Gigs Taggart: 28 main and 27 child agents.. over 50
* [8:28] Python Morales: shows thumbs up
* [8:28] Yani Pinion: /i vote
* [8:28] Gary Grainger: /there's some background noise from a motor
* [8:29] Adam Xinpeng: OpenSim office hours too.
* [8:29] hjapirate Sharp: hi all.
* [8:29] Tao Takashi: when are they?
* [8:29] Prospero Linden: OpenSim office hours --> is there a web page or some such that says when they are?
* [8:29] Adam Xinpeng: Two secs I'll dig it up
* [8:29] Saijanai Kuhn: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies#External_Links
* [8:30] Gary Grainger: /two a month
* [8:30] Adam Xinpeng: 
* [8:30] Gary Grainger: /keep it open
* [8:30] Saijanai Kuhn: Thats all the meetings, mailing lists, IRCs, forums, etc I could find
* [8:30] Prospero Linden: Zero, we're getting an echo through your mike.
* [8:31] hjapirate Sharp: What up HOMIE!!!
* [8:31] Gary Grainger: /im not a all-the-time user, but i would defiitely like to attend more often if it were more known about. the schedules and topics specifically.
* [8:32] Saijanai Kuhn: Gary, check out this section: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies#External_Links
* [8:32] otakup0pe Neumann: what's this "real life" people keep mentioning.
* [8:32] Gary Grainger: /is it me, or is the wiki being extremely slow?
* [8:32] Prospero Linden: otakupOpe : that's where the Soda is
* [8:33] Prospero Linden: Yes, wiki is a bit slow right now.
* [8:33] Saijanai Kuhn: Groupies has been using its meeting in the morning to prep for your meeting in the afternoon
* [8:33] Free Radar: HUD v1.1 by Crystal Gadgets
* [8:33] Gary Grainger: /we need to consider that fact. if it increases, some things may get buried
* [8:34] Gary Grainger: /i'll be your mole
* [8:34] Phoenix Linden: / we should choose a different location for future meetings -- meeting on a stage feels like you are presenting rather than a collaborative environment
* [8:34] Tao Takashi: Phoenix +1
* [8:34] Tao Takashi: Hi Phoenix :) 
* [8:34] Liana Linden: /Phoenix, noted.
* [8:34] Phoenix Linden: isn't on stage
* [8:35] Phoenix Linden: / think the senate in Star Wars
* [8:35] Tao Takashi: 5D!
* [8:35] Adam Xinpeng: We can meet on OpenSim. ;) 
* [8:35] Tao Takashi: we can meet in IRC ;-) 
* [8:35] Liana Linden: /If you build it, I'll book it.
* [8:35] Adam Xinpeng: OpenSim supports IRC. ;) 
* [8:35] Zha Ewry: sadly waves er hand
* [8:35] Gary Grainger: /meet in 2d, just send a pic
* [8:35] Free Radar: HUD v1.1 by Crystal Gadgets
* [8:35] Neas Bade: also waves hand regarding standards work
* [8:35] Prospero Linden: mmmm.... steak....
* [8:36] Nadine Neddings: hehe
* [8:36] Tao Takashi: I need to put some more remarks in there
* [8:36] Tao Takashi: there also need to be more discuss links btw
* [8:36] Spike Bright: shouts: brampton: 108,165,27
* [8:36] Yani Pinion: /bRB
* [8:37] Liana Linden: /Reminder: This meeting is being recorded. The audio and text chat will be posted on the SL wiki.
* [8:37] Zha Ewry: Formal defn. of all the terms
* [8:38] Yani Pinion: /back
* [8:38] Prospero Linden: We need a *spec*, I think
* [8:38] Spike Bright: shouts: brampton: 108,165,27
* [8:38] Spike Bright: shouts: brampton: 108,165,27
* [8:39] Tao Takashi: my mic is broken now
* [8:39] A group: member named Liana Linden gave you AWG2 Meeting Info.
* [8:39] Tao Takashi: I think we also need it for implementation
* [8:39] Prospero Linden: Vague specs lead to unintentional "embrace and extend"
* [8:39] Tao Takashi: if there is no MUST/SHOULD etc. in there then I have problems implementing it right
* [8:39] Hamilton Linden: +1 Tao
* [8:40] Spike Bright: shouts: brampton: 108,165,27
* [8:40] Tao Takashi: I already was wondering what it might mean in some places
* [8:40] Tao Takashi: I think I would be infavour of these actually
* [8:41] Zero Linden: https://wiki.secondlife.com/w/index.php?title=SLGOGP_Draft_1
* [8:41] Tao Takashi: it's maybe hard to see where comments are attached
* [8:41] Tao Takashi: damn mic.. :-/
* [8:41] Spike Bright: shouts: brampton: 108,165,27
* [8:42] Tao Takashi: ah, one topic: wiki needs to be faster! :) 
* [8:42] Adam Xinpeng: Take the https off of it and it loads quickly
* [8:42] Hamilton Linden: Yes, I agree, we don't want to loose previous discussions on why we ended up with the current text of a section
* [8:42] Tao Takashi: or make a separate wiki for it...
* [8:42] Tao Takashi: ok for me
* [8:44] otakup0pe Neumann: brb, sorry.
* [8:44] Liana Linden: /relogging
* [8:45] Free Radar: HUD v1.1 by Crystal Gadgets
* [8:45] Tara5 Oh: /will post the audio of the discussion Zha referred to later today
* [8:45] Tara5 Oh: /two hours long hehe
* [8:46] Saijanai Kuhn: best computer programming manuals ever written, IMHO
* [8:46] Dr Scofield: / sigh...voice on linux not working...picking up the voice via tao's stream
* [8:46] Tao Takashi: isn't the intro about this the Agent/Region domain stuff from the first meeting?
* [8:47] Tree Kyomoon: / maybe the slides + prose from the first AWG meeting?
* [8:47] Tao Takashi: sort of at least
* [8:47] Prospero Linden: That can be part of the colloquial "translation" document
* [8:47] Tao Takashi: there is also my meeting transcript on my old blog when I presented it in SL
* [8:47] Tao Takashi: there maybe should be a link to it
* [8:48] Tao Takashi: here is my blog article: 
* [8:49] Tao Takashi: Zzzzz ;-) 
* [8:49] Phoenix Linden: / Zha: did you mean we should address trust, or we assume trust?
* [8:49] Tree Kyomoon: ah.....yes, Tao's blog highly recommended as an intro
* [8:50] Tao Takashi: in the beginning we don't cover trust I think
* [8:51] Tree Kyomoon: / Yani: here's the other overview worth reading: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Structural_Design_Overview
* [8:51] Prospero Linden: Aditi is the open beta grid, for those of us who don't know
* [8:52] Tao Takashi: bercaster is crashing.. :-/
* [8:52] Python Morales: likes writing tests
* [8:52] Python Morales: and test driven dev.
* [8:52] Tao Takashi: me, too
* [8:53] Python Morales: test cases for security is somehow an interesting thought..
* [8:54] Phoenix Linden: believes we should specificy exactly what we mean by 'trust'
* [8:54] Jussi Hudson: / brb
* [8:54] Tao Takashi: Phoenix that's part of the challenge ;-) 
* [8:56] Free Radar: HUD v1.1 by Crystal Gadgets
* [8:57] otakup0pe Neumann: ... and back. had to stop cats destroying things.
* [8:58] Zha Ewry: I think this will simply add antoehr layer of sharing we need to do
* [8:58] Prospero Linden: Zha, yeah, that might be right.
* [8:58] Prospero Linden: agrees with Zero
* [8:58] Python Morales: nods
* [8:59] Prospero Linden: We should only have to get accounts on agent domains
* [8:59] Python Morales: Prospero, we are using the term 'authentication server' for that part of realxtend
* [9:00] Python Morales: but more or less is like the awg1 agent domain
* [9:00] Prospero Linden: Python -- that may be something else we should agree on in the spec, is the vocab we use so that we agree we're talking about the same thing and use the same words
* [9:00] Shinji Lungu: /banning is a primitive way of handling trolls... trust webs would be more responsive and dynamic than central moderation
* [9:00] Python Morales: Prospero, indeed
* [9:01] Zero Linden: gary's up next
* [9:01] Bluewave Ogee: /sorry - I have to attend a short meeting elsewhere...I will return :-) ]
* [9:01] Adam Xinpeng: / raise hand. No central services plz.
* [9:02] Tao Takashi: I want to continue with my agent domain implementation, btw ;-) 
* [9:02] Python Morales: Adam, except for perhaps a single currency?
* [9:02] Python Morales: Tao, where is that?
* [9:02] Prospero Linden: Neas : that should be part of the trust model, I think... you can specify which other agent domains you will interact with, or none, etc.
* [9:03] Tao Takashi: Python: right now just a capabilities experiment prior to the draft
* [9:03] Tao Takashi: will look up the URL later
* [9:03] Tao Takashi: ok, phone, brb
* [9:03] Yani Pinion: /raise hand. realXtend has demonstrated decentralized authentication service that provides single sing-on for users
* [9:03] Prospero Linden: Tracking "bad actors" may end up having some similar properties to tracking spammers.... and I believe that there has really not been much success with that (blacklists, etc.)
* [9:03] Python Morales: one model we've talked about is that regions/grids/somethings are conffed so that they trust only specified (trusted) authentication servers
* [9:04] otakup0pe Neumann: prospero at the least a simple "Ban list" RSS feed that different agent domains can publish
* [9:04] otakup0pe Neumann: and other ssubscribe to.
* [9:04] Prospero Linden: otakup0pe : yeah. I'm not sure how effective that has really been in stopping spammers, though....
* [9:04] otakup0pe Neumann: it hasn't....
* [9:04] otakup0pe Neumann: "at least" heh.
* [9:04] Python Morales: i think it is separate too
* [9:04] Gigs Taggart: / No blacklist system is bulletproof.. but something like IRC has distributed banlists that do OK.
* [9:05] Tao Takashi: back
* [9:05] Gorgon Smit: / BRB
* [9:05] Tao Takashi: ban lists via XMPP ;-) 
* [9:05] Adam Xinpeng: hahaha
* [9:05] Python Morales: foaf would be used for 'enemies of friends' instead :p
* [9:06] Python Morales: hee
* [9:06] Neas Bade: heh
* [9:06] Yani Pinion: /brb, family issues...
* [9:06] Python Morales: (foaf is btw, The Friend of a Friend (FOAF) project.)
* [9:07] Liana Linden: /up to the group
* [9:07] Prospero Linden: go for it
* [9:07] Neas Bade: / sounds good
* [9:07] Adam Xinpeng: /agreed
* [9:07] Chibiki's Kitty: Pouncer: enabled.
* [9:07] Tao Takashi: ok, will hope to get my mic fixed then
* [9:07] Chibi's PG: Chibiki's Push-Guard is enabled
* [9:07] Neas Bade: / that makes it about lunch time here on the east coast, can grab a quick bite
* [9:07] Prospero Linden: oh my!
* [9:08] Tao Takashi: and Tao!
* [9:08] Nadine Neddings: LOL
* [9:08] Prospero Linden: re; "touch my pyramid!"
* [9:09] Yani Pinion: /back
* [9:09] Python Morales: hey rex guys dig up the avatar server data structures :p
* [9:09] Prospero Linden: Fully agreed
* [9:09] Tao Takashi: Data Portability! :) 
* [9:10] Prospero Linden: It's bad enough already that we have 10,000,000 little accounts on every damn web page.
* [9:10] Prospero Linden: Sure. We CAN ahve multiple identities, if we need it.
* [9:10] Python Morales: that's an interesting point .. and of course 'single sign-on' has been there a lot
* [9:10] Tao Takashi: Prospero: thus dataportability.org
* [9:10] otakup0pe Neumann: yeah but i get all my email via thunderbird heh
* [9:10] Araqiels Dagger: looks to the lady to his right, "how YOU doin'?"
* [9:11] Asterion Coen: / hop
* [9:11] Prospero Linden: sometimes also has problems with personal and Linden avatar... but he does everything full perms and passes back and forth freely :) 
* [9:11] Python Morales: Gary, might some root server thing like with dns me interesting?
* [9:11] Prospero Linden: That's all giving inventory really is... copying a reference to the asset server.
* [9:11] Prospero Linden: At least, right now, within SL.
* [9:12] Hamilton Linden: But when one avatar modifies, they now point to different assets
* [9:12] otakup0pe Neumann: not touching upon task inventory heh
* [9:12] Python Morales: right
* [9:13] Phoenix Linden: / applying 'permissions' on things you can see and hear is fundamentally broken
* [9:13] Prospero Linden: All the time you spent making yourself look cool
* [9:13] Prospero Linden: Phoenix : that's a gigantic morass, though :D
* [9:13] Gigs Taggart: / yeah
* [9:14] Prospero Linden: w00t for the deeply geeky
* [9:14] Neas Bade: / yeah for fios
* [9:14] otakup0pe Neumann: sighs
* [9:14] Gorgon Smit: / back
* [9:14] Prospero Linden: is gonna run a grid on a C64 and a 300 baud modem
* [9:14] Nadine Neddings: LOL
* [9:14] Saijanai Kuhn: Steve Jobs has T1 in his bathroom
* [9:14] Jussi Hudson: lol
* [9:14] Tao Takashi: I think many of the agent domain portability problems are basically the same as Data Portability Group is about
* [9:15] Tao Takashi: well, identity, friends lists etc.
* [9:15] Tao Takashi: of course not inventory
* [9:15] Tao Takashi: but even photos etc. might be in the scope and thus maybe also inventory
* [9:15] Tao Takashi: that's not really clear
* [9:15] Tao Takashi: there are no defined concepts yet ;-) 
* [9:15] Prospero Linden: "use your friends"... sounds Machiavellian :) 
* [9:16] Nadine Neddings: I was just thinking that, Prospero. :P
* [9:16] Saijanai Kuhn: wants to see TP invitations workign cross-grid
* [9:16] Tao Takashi: the first time I saw one of these tables if was not too clear what they mean ;-) 
* [9:17] Tao Takashi: +1
* [9:17] Neas Bade: +1 as well :) 
* [9:17] Dr Scofield: +1
* [9:17] Gigs Taggart: +sqrt(-1)
* [9:17] Prospero Linden: thinks that the whole permissions system such as is in SL right now is going to be one of the biggest nightmares for this....
* [9:17] Gigs Taggart: :P
* [9:17] Prospero Linden: love Gigs for i
* [9:17] Adam Xinpeng: haha
* [9:18] Tao Takashi: for an Caps intro: 
* [9:20] Phoenix Linden: agrees strongly with Zha
* [9:20] Phoenix Linden: / except the 2.0 stuff.
* [9:20] Tao Takashi: that's why I already don't like caps...
* [9:20] Phoenix Linden: hates buzz-words
* [9:20] Prospero Linden: thinks Web 2.0 is just Web :) 
* [9:20] Tao Takashi: the rest of the web uses different mechanisms
* [9:20] Rob Linden: prefers Web 2.1.0.564 rev B
* [9:21] Phoenix Linden: :-) 
* [9:22] Tao Takashi: my fear is that caps is a new concept which many people first haveto learn about again
* [9:22] Tao Takashi: they are used to cookie like stuff
* [9:23] Adam Xinpeng: Depends on implementation
* [9:23] Prospero Linden: There can be "public capabilities", can't there?
* [9:23] Prospero Linden: Interface looks the same, but the URL you get back is always the same
* [9:23] Python Morales: in rex every asset can have a url
* [9:23] Python Morales: that's how we point to html and vnc://
* [9:23] Gigs Taggart: / oh ok
* [9:24] otakup0pe Neumann: vnc ?
* [9:24] Python Morales: and opensim folks have agreed that it makes sense to be able to point to urls for any asset data, so that's gonna be merged now
* [9:24] Tao Takashi: YAY! :-) 
* [9:24] Python Morales: otakup, 'virtual network computing' or somesuch, a remote desktop kind of simple protocol
* [9:24] otakup0pe Neumann: <3 mulib
* [9:24] Prospero Linden: also loves muluib.... started playing with it a few weeks ago
* [9:24] otakup0pe Neumann: even if i didn;'t end up going with it i still love it ;) 
* [9:25] Tao Takashi: come to EuroPython and talk about mulib!!! :) 
* [9:25] Python Morales: likes the sound of proxy.py :) 
* [9:25] Neas Bade: python, I haven't seen that in mantis yet.
* [9:25] Phoenix Linden: / donovan is in pycon at the moment
* [9:25] Zha Ewry: /mewinges
* [9:25] Python Morales: oh cool, Phoenix
* [9:25] Prospero Linden: chuckles
* [9:25] Nadine Neddings: ROFL
* [9:25] Xan Linden: donovan has us all hooked on mulib
* [9:25] Phoenix Linden: / most of the main linden py-lib contributors are there
* [9:25] Tao Takashi: ok, I am off then for checking out caps.py ;-) 
* [9:25] Prospero Linden: Me wonders if we're going to start talking about a lightweight proxy now
* [9:25] Tao Takashi: j/k
* [9:26] otakup0pe Neumann: heh.
* [9:26] Adam Xinpeng: Heh.
* [9:26] Tao Takashi: heh :) 
* [9:26] Tao Takashi: LSD!
* [9:26] Prospero Linden: loves llsd
* [9:26] Dr Scofield: the colors!
* [9:26] otakup0pe Neumann: it's a heck of a drug.
* [9:26] Gigs Taggart: heh
* [9:26] Prospero Linden: llsd maps to python so easily... :D
* [9:26] Asterion Coen: /universa ;) 
* [9:26] Phoenix Linden: / and php
* [9:26] Tao Takashi: for general web consumption it should also be JSON ;-) 
* [9:26] Gigs Taggart: I like the binary JSON looking LLSD :P
* [9:26] otakup0pe Neumann: so does json <_<
* [9:26] Tao Takashi: another concept...
* [9:27] Phoenix Linden: / efficiently
* [9:27] Python Morales: yah llsd did not seem too bad
* [9:27] Python Morales: like json perhaps
* [9:27] otakup0pe Neumann: then again....
* [9:27] Saijanai Kuhn: LLSD for legacy login will clarify thigns so much.
* [9:27] otakup0pe Neumann: mumbles something about strong typing
* [9:27] Tao Takashi: well, the draft mentions JSON, so that's maybe ok
* [9:27] Python Morales: yah
* [9:28] Prospero Linden: The llsd python libraries we have... have they been opensourced, or are they still internal? (we=Linden here)
* [9:28] Phoenix Linden: / indra.base.llsd is open
* [9:28] Python Morales: there was something in groupies svn?
* [9:28] Python Morales: ah
* [9:28] Phoenix Linden: / mit license I think
* [9:28] Saijanai Kuhn: I believe the python translation library is open. At least I've been using it on my sample code on the wiki
* [9:28] Python Morales: goes to look
* [9:28] Phoenix Linden: 
* [9:28] Phoenix Linden: / ^^^ description of the supported serializations
* [9:29] Phoenix Linden: / exactly Zha
* [9:29] Prospero Linden: definitely
* [9:29] Tao Takashi: is lindendollar.py also in mulib?
* [9:29] Adam Xinpeng: While we are on licensing, can we get llvolume and llmath open sourced under a useful license (since they are part of the spec)?
* [9:29] Tao Takashi: we can dance a bit
* [9:29] Prospero Linden: votes for 15min
* [9:29] Tao Takashi: 15
* [9:29] Prospero Linden: loses :) 
* [9:29] Python Morales: 10-15, both fine for m e
* [9:29] Saijanai Kuhn: looks for a 10 minute breakfast
* [9:29] Prospero Linden: WANTS SLT back!!!!
* [9:29] Prospero Linden: wants SLT = UT
* [9:29] Tao Takashi: ok, great
* [9:29] Adam Xinpeng: kk
* [9:30] Python Morales: cheers
* [9:30] Neas Bade: / me runs for lunch
* [9:30] Prospero Linden: wants to kill Daylight Savings Time with extreme prejudice....
* [9:30] Prospero Linden: ark
* [9:30] otakup0pe Neumann: and how prospero
* [9:30] Prospero Linden: afk
* [9:30] Phoenix Linden: is afk
* [9:30] Python Morales: was happy to find 
* [9:30] Python Morales: but now off to break, laters
* [9:31] joneka Adamczyk: :D:P
* [9:31] joneka Adamczyk: a lot of people
* [9:32] Gigs Taggart: Gary wow that's a new one :P
* [9:33] joneka Adamczyk: :D:P
* [9:33] Gigs Taggart: Gary we can talk about that on #opensl on efnet, wouldn't want to clutter up here talking about it
* [9:33] Gary Grainger: /about what?
* [9:33] Gigs Taggart: your compile issue
* [9:33] Gary Grainger: Hendrix
* [9:33] Saijanai Kuhn: Its interesting that no-one uses voice to chat during the break
* [9:33] joneka Adamczyk: :D:P
* [9:33] Gary Grainger: How about some pantera?
* [9:34] Gigs Taggart: oh I turned on my music
* [9:34] Gigs Taggart: that's why I'm not
* [9:35] Conover's Flight-Helper: 6.2.5.2 (WEAR ME!): Flight-helper is ready and operational.
* [9:35] Gigs Taggart: which LLSD encoding was depricated?
* [9:36] Gigs Taggart: was that one already removed from the wiki?
* [9:36] Python Morales: isn't there any music here?-)
* [9:36] Saijanai Kuhn: LLS bindary?
* [9:37] Gigs Taggart: python your mics on
* [9:37] Python Morales: Gigs sorry needed to test the level a bit
* [9:37] Liana Linden: / relogging
* [9:37] Gigs Taggart: oh ok
* [9:38] Komuso Tokugawa: Too bizarre...I relogged after crashing and I see ruthed people!
* [9:38] Nadine Neddings: "I see ruthed people"...wasn't that in The Sixth Sense?
* [9:38] Couples MultiAnimator: v2e whispers: * Abranimations Couples Animator Ready...
* [9:38] Neas Bade: hears echos of zha
* [9:40] Saijanai Kuhn: waits for Zero and Zha to start dancing as part of half time entertaainment
* [9:40] Gary Grainger: heh
* [9:40] Neas Bade: he
* [9:40] Neas Bade: heh
* [9:40] Gary Grainger: did anyone hear my music?
* [9:40] Neas Bade: the other option to get rid of typing noise is just turn your sounds volume down (but leave the rest of the channels up)
* [9:41] Gary Grainger: >:o 
* [9:41] Gary Grainger: ^_^
* [9:41] Zha Ewry: Also,some debug setting, isntthere?
* [9:41] Gary Grainger: :o
* [9:41] Enus Linden: playTypingAnim
* [9:41] Nadine Neddings: yes, Debug > playtypinganim
* [9:41] Nadine Neddings: heh, what he said
* [9:41] Gary Grainger: <_> exploding eyeballs
* [9:42] Zha Ewry: "/0 once"
* [9:42] Saijanai Kuhn: Zero wears many hats at Linden Labs
* [9:42] Zha Ewry: once
* [9:43] Zha Ewry: " and then //"
* [9:43] Gary Grainger: men without hats
* [9:43] Zha Ewry: like this
* [9:43] Zha Ewry: and then this
* [9:43] Saijanai Kuhn: Or is that a live domo of an obscure TP bug?
* [9:43] Gary Grainger: orly
* [9:44] Prospero Linden: is back
* [9:45] Prospero Linden: nice balancing trick
* [9:45] Aric Linden: applauds
* [9:45] Phoenix Linden: / don't suggest you're "nothing"
* [9:45] Prospero Linden: Hamilton, we hear background noise
* [9:45] Adam Xinpeng: haha
* [9:45] otakup0pe Neumann: heh.
* [9:46] Asterion Coen: / u r lucky, i dont hear anything
* [9:46] Saijanai Kuhn: Was that Japanese?
* [9:46] Gigs Taggart: heh
* [9:46] Neas Bade: toa has feedback
* [9:46] Tao Takashi: is it me?=
* [9:46] Liana Linden: /Tao, please mute
* [9:46] Gigs Taggart: yes
* [9:46] Neas Bade: yep
* [9:46] Tao Takashi: sorry
* [9:46] Gigs Taggart: it was tao
* [9:46] Phoenix Linden: / it was Tao
* [9:47] Tao Takashi: something is broken with my setup here
* [9:47] Tao Takashi: now I am not sure recording works
* [9:47] Saijanai Kuhn: hooray
* [9:47] Tao Takashi: I have to relog.. slvoice crashed again
* [9:48] Adam Xinpeng: IPv6!
* [9:48] Adam Xinpeng: grins
* [9:48] otakup0pe Neumann: durr.
* [9:48] Gary Grainger: /adam, unfortunately more pressure on isps needs to happen
* [9:48] Prospero Linden: IPv6 will be releavant for the *4d* web, not the 3d web
* [9:48] Gary Grainger: /lack of ipv6 native routers and consumer isps with ipv6
* [9:48] Zha Ewry: Maybe the 5d web :-) 
* [9:48] Gary Grainger: /i myself have ipv6 support on my router, but again, consumer isps, heh fat chance
* [9:48] Liana Linden: /relogging
* [9:49] Tao Takashi: let me test again
* [9:49] Tao Takashi: ok, not working
* [9:49] Tao Takashi: damn bercaster
* [9:49] Adam Xinpeng: /raises hand
* [9:50] Gary Grainger: /I deal with event queue with one of my projects, but it actually needs it
* [9:50] Gary Grainger: /are you sure encapsulation is the best idea?
* [9:51] Zero Linden: / we hear you
* [9:52] Tao Takashi: COMET is even coming to the web ;-) 
* [9:53] Adam Xinpeng: /raises hand again
* [9:53] otakup0pe Neumann: stuff that has wireshark decoders (although i noticed a udp sl decoder float across sldev recently)
* [9:53] Phoenix Linden: kind of rambled there
* [9:53] Phoenix Linden: is passionate about networks
* [9:54] otakup0pe Neumann: i agree wrt object updates / agent updates and the like
* [9:54] Zero Linden: / I think Adam is proposing that we put the data stream that we put on UDP over TCP
* [9:54] otakup0pe Neumann: yeah that's the part i agree with.
* [9:54] Phoenix Linden: / zero: with the addition that we have a set of uniquely identified templates
* [9:55] Tao Takashi: The UDP part was the thing when I gave up implementing a python version of libsecondlife
* [9:56] Phoenix Linden: / actually, the ACKs are cool for semi-reliable transmission.
* [9:56] Adam Xinpeng: I'm propose UDP OR TCP for the message transmission.
* [9:56] Adam Xinpeng: allowing the implementation to pick which one.
* [9:56] Python Morales: hm
* [9:56] Prospero Linden: there *is* some stuff where random dropping of packets isn't such a bit deal
* [9:56] Python Morales: Tao, interesting
* [9:57] Neas Bade: how much of the data can actually be dropped? It seems like we are ACKing just about everything now
* [9:57] Python Morales: Prospero, indeed
* [9:57] Prospero Linden: For example, positions of the green dots on the minimap.
* [9:57] Prospero Linden: I think we TCP that now because the messages are longer than one packet....
* [9:57] Phoenix Linden: / Adam did have a proposal for dealing with that, but I see the solution as error prone in implementations
* [9:58] Python Morales: Prospero, right - basically updates of such data, like current position or something
* [9:58] otakup0pe Neumann: oh i wasn't saying that heh.
* [9:58] Phoenix Linden: / beep handles the framing well, but beep has proven difficult to implement correctly, and has not enjoyed wide deployment
* [9:58] Phoenix Linden: / routers are really good at correctly routing http traffic
* [9:58] Gary Grainger: /brb
* [9:59] Asterion Coen: /phenix, that's because your 300b modem (or your c64)
* [9:59] Prospero Linden: Phoenix : related to the fact that so many people don't know the difference between the "Web" and the "Internet"
* [9:59] Phoenix Linden: / uh oh -- our first major disagreement. How do we decide which direction to go?
* [9:59] otakup0pe Neumann: have there been any experiments at ll with shipping *updates over CAPS ?
* [10:00] Gary Grainger: /I've port forwarded just because I hate upnp
* [10:00] Tess Linden: /otakupOpe: EventQueueGet *is* a cap
* [10:01] Prospero Linden: KeepAlive is a problem on the server side, though..... it's a great DOS opening
* [10:01] Gary Grainger: /TCP stream would be more efficient than HTTP
* [10:01] Saijanai Kuhn: /raises hand
* [10:01] Adam Xinpeng: EventQueueGet is probably a good DOS openeing too though
* [10:01] Adam Xinpeng: you can just open them and time em out
* [10:01] otakup0pe Neumann: tess are object/agent updates going over caps or has that been tried ?
* [10:01] Phoenix Linden: / we've had problems with keep-alives, but for client oriented work, it is a good solution
* [10:01] Tess Linden: / we've tried to send CoarseLocationUpdate via the event queue and had to add a "replace" option for those messages to not flood the queue
* [10:01] Python Morales: ahh - Tess, perhaps we now finally get to understand caps :) 
* [10:01] Tao Takashi: here is a decription of COMET techniques: 
* [10:01] Tao Takashi: and it also mentions Keep-Alive
* [10:02] Python Morales: hm
* [10:02] Tess Linden: / CoarseLocationUpdate is the message for handling mini map updates
* [10:03] Tao Takashi: yep
* [10:04] Gigs Taggart: / aside: my client profiling shows a good bit of CPU time being spent in SSL even now. :P
* [10:04] Gigs Taggart: sure
* [10:04] Neas Bade: that's because DrScofield isn't here :) 
* [10:04] Gigs Taggart: it's not big
* [10:04] Tao Takashi: btw, what about XMPP?
* [10:04] Gigs Taggart: but it's significant :P
* [10:05] Phoenix Linden: / xmpp seems like a good protocol for queueing messages
* [10:05] Gary Grainger: /create/delete of sockets is a inefficient when not necessary. i notice sl uses https a lot, so im sure that even with some of overhead mitigated by using localhost, the other inefficient mechanisms are causing additional strain, and economically are more consuming on LL's grid
* [10:05] Tree Kyomoon: / btw: SubEthaEdit uses BEEP, apparently
* [10:05] Python Morales: many people are considering seriously implementing xmpp stuff to / with opensim
* [10:05] Adam Xinpeng: Maybe we should schedule XMPP for AWG3 - people investigate it between now and then?
* [10:05] Adam Xinpeng: (do AWG3 soonish?)
* [10:05] Tao Takashi: I never came down to actually read the XMPP specs
* [10:05] otakup0pe Neumann: that's an idea i can get behind adam.
* [10:05] Python Morales: Tao, it is quite interesting
* [10:05] Tao Takashi: because there seems to be a lot of stuff to read
* [10:05] Neas Bade: actually, xmpp in opensim is being limitted to IM
* [10:05] Gary Grainger: /I'm using XMPP for my project. It's for collaboration, but it is used for IM's and simple resources.
* [10:05] Phoenix Linden: / xmpp has some ugly. for example, what does it really mean to stream a never-ending xml document?
* [10:06] Tao Takashi: if anybody has an intro to XMPP, please share a URL :) 
* [10:06] Python Morales: xmpp has a notion of 'presence' too
* [10:06] Tao Takashi: DiSo looks into it for distributing profile updates
* [10:06] Gareth Ellison: Tao - the RFCs on jabber.org
* [10:06] Neas Bade: xmpp == jabber
* [10:06] Python Morales: 
* [10:06] Tao Takashi: I don't mean RFC but an intro ;-) 
* [10:06] Python Morales: :p
* [10:06] otakup0pe Neumann: far more than jabber but that's the most shining example.
* [10:07] Gary Grainger: i think it can
* [10:07] Tao Takashi: I looked at that and it looked like a lot esp. with the extensions
* [10:07] Tree Kyomoon: / Wikipedia probably has a good intro
* [10:07] Python Morales: well i posted one intro to opensim-dev
* [10:07] Python Morales: a link to some java example
* [10:07] Tao Takashi: Python: thanks, will look it up
* [10:07] Python Morales: i figured java is close to c# so the people there can read it :) 
* [10:07] Gareth Ellison: how expensive is SSL once the connection setup is done?
* [10:07] Gary Grainger: haha
* [10:07] Tao Takashi: you should do it in your first name's language ;-) 
* [10:07] Gary Grainger: /there's not a language called "James"
* [10:07] Nadine Neddings: ROFL
* [10:08] Gareth Ellison: i'm thinking that the key there is possibly to eliminate the excess connections so that there's not so much lag induced by constant bringup/teardown
* [10:08] Tao Takashi: probably there is ;-) 
* [10:08] Python Morales: Tao, i guess that has been done, but not everyone is such a py fan everywhere so i tried to consider what they use. but yah perhaps py is closer to c# than java, but anyhow :) 
* [10:08] Rob Linden: dreads trying to get a binary over TCP ratified by any respectable standards group. they'll do it, but not without a fight
* [10:08] Gareth Ellison: heh, demo code should be done in multiple languages
* [10:09] Tao Takashi: the value in SL is in the people anyway
* [10:09] Python Morales: xmpppy is a Python library that is targeted to provide easy scripting with Jabber. Similar projects are Twisted Words and jabber.py.
* [10:09] Gareth Ellison: Rob - just do an XML serialisation too
* [10:09] Tao Takashi: thanks, Python
* [10:09] Gareth Ellison: coughs and points to LLSD HTTP delivery and UDP delivery of messages
* [10:09] Python Morales: Tao, twisted kind of started as a mmo game project .. a mud server, first :) 
* [10:10] Saijanai Kuhn: Like Zero says, you're soakidn in it right now
* [10:10] Neas Bade: ok, sorry for the dumb question :) 
* [10:10] Saijanai Kuhn: its easy enough to implement. I have some python code if you want to lookk at it
* [10:10] otakup0pe Neumann: <3
* [10:10] Tao Takashi: :-) 
* [10:10] otakup0pe Neumann: haha zero. i hate my logitech headset for that.
* [10:10] Prospero Linden: "There are no dumb questions, only dumb answers." (Said by a particle physicist in a grad class who also said "There are no dumb answers, only dumb questions.")
* [10:11] Saijanai Kuhn: Chatterbox stuff
* [10:11] Phoenix Linden: / friends in mini-map has been turned off
* [10:11] otakup0pe Neumann: nods
* [10:11] Tao Takashi: "your friends have been turned off"
* [10:11] Prospero Linden: We had friends in mini-map on a fraction of the grid for a while
* [10:11] Gareth Ellison: (offtopic) i have a feeling i'm missing half the convo here due to lack of voice
* [10:11] Prospero Linden: Still some issues
* [10:12] Tao Takashi: Gareth: use ustream?
* [10:12] Prospero Linden: Gareth : more than 1/2
* [10:12] Saijanai Kuhn: Think the latest viewwer does it
* [10:12] Nadine Neddings: Gareth -- you are...use 
* [10:12] Gareth Ellison: heh
* [10:12] Tao Takashi: but you need flash ;-) 
* [10:12] Gareth Ellison: too laggy anyway, back ontopic now.......
* [10:13] Phoenix Linden: / "admin powers"
* [10:13] Adam Xinpeng: Mutan Wang
* [10:13] Gigs Taggart: mutang wang
* [10:14] Tara5 Oh: ?Mutan Wang
* [10:14] Gigs Taggart: oops
* [10:14] Neas Bade: / tivo for second life ;) 
* [10:14] Phoenix Linden: regrets using the word "god" in the original implementation
* [10:14] Tree Kyomoon: / brb
* [10:14] Prospero Linden: Phoenix : yeah, I've had people complain about that at office hours :) 
* [10:15] Gareth Ellison: crazy idea relating to voice and IM transport
* [10:15] Gareth Ellison: text2speech and TTS engine client-side or as a kind of server-side filter
* [10:15] Gareth Ellison: i say client side for the obvious reason of server resources
* [10:15] Tao Takashi: I can :) 
* [10:16] Zha Ewry: raises her hand a bit
* [10:16] otakup0pe Neumann: grins
* [10:16] Tao Takashi: raises hand :) 
* [10:16] Saijanai Kuhn: oops
* [10:16] Python Morales: /raises hand
* [10:16] Gareth Ellison: but perhaps have a means of setting it via a server-side flag
* [10:16] Prospero Linden: woah
* [10:16] Tao Takashi: a ghost voice!
* [10:16] Gigs Taggart: whee
* [10:16] Prospero Linden: otakup0pe --> voice problems
* [10:16] otakup0pe Neumann: brb :o
* [10:16] Asterion Coen: D2R2 is speaking
* [10:16] Prospero Linden: Ak ak ak, ak ak ak, ak ak!
* [10:16] Phoenix Linden: / otakup0pe
* [10:16] Gary Grainger: lol :D
* [10:17] Liana Linden: / Python, please try again to make your comment.
* [10:17] Multi Gadget: v1.52.0 by Timeless Prototype
* [10:17] Zero Linden: / much better audio now, python
* [10:17] Saijanai Kuhn: wiki down it seems
* [10:17] Tree Kyomoon: / back
* [10:18] Phoenix Linden: / python: rexx as in the IBM language?
* [10:18] Liana Linden: /rex = realExtend viewer
* [10:18] Python Morales: this was about server too
* [10:19] Tao Takashi: here is the URL of my code which is there right now: 
* [10:19] Liana Linden: /sorry, "realXtend"
* [10:19] Tao Takashi: sort of unsorted though, need to clean it up
* [10:19] Gareth Ellison: Tao - was that the message encoding/decoding?
* [10:19] Saijanai Kuhn: Tao, we need to share code.
* [10:19] Gareth Ellison: somebody sent me such code a while back which i integrated into streamlet
* [10:19] Prospero Linden: But there are human beings in outer space! :) 
* [10:19] Tao Takashi: Gareth: that is for making an Agent Domain
* [10:19] Gary Grainger: /Puny earthling!
* [10:19] Gareth Ellison: ah
* [10:20] Tao Takashi: Sai: yep, I think about starting all over with the draft now
* [10:20] Burhop Piccard: We need to speaker person to run up to the speaker :-) I could barely hear Zha.
* [10:20] Adam Xinpeng: p0pe: you can sort of teleport from LLSim to OSim now using the RexViewer and putting a URL in llMapDestination
* [10:20] Adam Xinpeng: for some definition of 'sort of teleport'
* [10:20] Prospero Linden: Burhop : before 1.19.1, Voice was normalized too quiet... you may need to turn up people individually
* [10:20] Saijanai Kuhn: check teh legacy strawman page. I updated teh page to reflect teh most accurate and uptodate legacy login
* [10:20] otakup0pe Neumann: that's pretty awesome adam. sapinski was telling me a bit about that recently.
* [10:21] Tao Takashi: I should do interviews with all you guys for my podcast :) 
* [10:21] Burhop Piccard: Prospero, my firewall blocks voice. I'm listening in on Ustream.tv
* [10:21] Saijanai Kuhn: should b the basis for the draft page legacy login and my current login page
* [10:21] Gary Grainger: /:o
* [10:21] Gary Grainger: />:o
* [10:22] Gary Grainger: MVC
* [10:22] Gary Grainger: /SVC (SecondLife View Controller)
* [10:22] Saijanai Kuhn: weeps quietly about IM
* [10:22] Prospero Linden: IM definitely should go to agent domain
* [10:22] Adam Xinpeng: Hey if we use XMPP o/~
* [10:23] Neas Bade: correction to earlier statements python made, the realxtend server code isn't part of opensim, it's their own fork at 
* [10:23] Python Morales: hm
* [10:23] Prospero Linden: Group IM has issues in SL right now, we know that :D
* [10:23] Gary Grainger: /Adam, right, it'd make it easier
* [10:23] otakup0pe Neumann: yeah adam xmpp's federating system is kinda neat
* [10:23] Gareth Ellison: heh, agent domain could be a literal domain
* [10:23] Tao Takashi: how are chances to get your own agent domain implementation running anyway? Can I then connect to some other (e.g. LL run) system=
* [10:23] Gareth Ellison: as could region domain
* [10:23] Saijanai Kuhn: is weeping about trying to get sample python IM working is all
* [10:23] Tree Kyomoon: / wiki.secondlife.com and jira.secondlife.com are both down. our hoster knows about it, but I don't have an update/ETA for fix yet
* [10:23] Gary Grainger: /Rob and wiki is slow
* [10:23] Gareth Ellison: Tao: trust relationships should be set with content flags
* [10:23] Python Morales: Neas, it is in a branch in the opensim now, the server side additions / changes i mean. the viewer is different, that's in sourceforge. but yah realxtend.org has user downloads and dev info etc
* [10:23] Gareth Ellison: content creators set "allow other grids" flag
* [10:24] Tao Takashi: Gareth: that was discusses, yep
* [10:24] Python Morales: 'the opensim svn i mean'
* [10:24] Adam Xinpeng: /raises hand
* [10:24] Neas Bade: python, no it isn't. It was removed
* [10:24] Python Morales: Neas, the whole branch?
* [10:24] Neas Bade: yes
* [10:24] Python Morales: ah
* [10:24] Python Morales: so merging is done in a different way now?
* [10:24] Yani Pinion: /python: The plan changed
* [10:24] Python Morales: ah, didn't know that
* [10:25] Gary Grainger: /look at real life for examples, world bank wire transfers, global economy
* [10:25] Saijanai Kuhn: an inaeresting point came up: gambling on other grids, how does L$ interact with those grids?
* [10:25] Phoenix Linden: / I'm pretty sure that we will want currencies
* [10:25] otakup0pe Neumann: i agree with adam, and the whole virtual currency thing scares most of the high crimes cops i know ;) 
* [10:25] Phoenix Linden: / linden?
* [10:25] Prospero Linden: Re: gambling and all that, I wouldn't worry about L$ stuff. After all, you can gamble in Nevada and take your winnings back to CA.
* [10:25] Lazarus Longstaff: /it would seem it would be beneficial for anyone to operate such a service
* [10:25] Gareth Ellison: would LL be liable for what happens on other grids simply because they allow L$ interchange?
* [10:25] Gary Grainger: /I suspect that it can't be completely controlled, there's no way in real life, you can't do it with code
* [10:26] Gareth Ellison: if not, then it should be allowed
* [10:26] Lazarus Longstaff: /*to be able
* [10:26] Prospero Linden: You probably want a currency standard, though
* [10:26] Adam Xinpeng: Doesnt have to be this standard though.
* [10:26] Gary Grainger: /implement a Las Vegas of SL
* [10:26] Saijanai Kuhn: a staandard to talk about currency, even if its not a requirement
* [10:26] otakup0pe Neumann: eperate standard makes sense. or bringing up XMPP again... they have their own standard process (XEP's)
* [10:26] Prospero Linden: Gary : except not in the USA :D
* [10:26] Gareth Ellison: personally, i'd like to see lots of different currencies and a standard exchange protocol
* [10:26] otakup0pe Neumann: prospero shame sealand is shut down :( 
* [10:26] Gary Grainger: /I mean LD that cant be used for USD
* [10:26] Gary Grainger: /specific regions
* [10:27] Prospero Linden: That may well be entangled with the whole permissions system.
* [10:27] Zha Ewry: nods at Prospero
* [10:27] Gareth Ellison: some kind of encrypted certificate to act as virtual bank notes would work
* [10:27] Phoenix Linden: / like http status code 403?
* [10:27] Adam Xinpeng: Phoenix: exactly
* [10:27] Phoenix Linden: / whoops -- 402
* [10:27] Tao Takashi: make a new status code "money needed" ;-) 
* [10:27] Gareth Ellison: generate long unique serial codes per "note"
* [10:27] Gary Grainger: /again, look at real life. it's a stigma banning it, even if there were more cops than people, gambling would continue. the prohibition didnt work, neither does the war on drugs.
* [10:28] Gareth Ellison: and encrypt and sign them
* [10:28] Prospero Linden: Status code 666 : money, the root of all evil, needed.
* [10:28] otakup0pe Neumann: heh doesn't the http spec cover that as a response code already >?
* [10:28] Lalinda Lovell: make everything free so no-one needs money :) 
* [10:28] Neas Bade: http 402 is that already
* [10:28] otakup0pe Neumann: yeah 402 heh
* [10:28] Saijanai Kuhn: the freshman currency porotocol: money7 needed
* [10:28] Gareth Ellison: teh pope is right
* [10:28] otakup0pe Neumann: oh beaten.
* [10:28] Gary Grainger: /so dont try controlling it so much, it aint gonna help, wasted resources to try and do that anyways
* [10:28] Tao Takashi: we might need a new http header for specifying the supported currencies ;-) 
* [10:28] Gary Grainger: /only have to worry about the use of LD really
* [10:28] Neas Bade: 10.4.3 402 Payment Required This code is reserved for future use.
* [10:28] Gareth Ellison: doesn't specify how to confirm payment
* [10:29] Tao Takashi: I thought we are the new internet
* [10:29] Gareth Ellison: i presume the IETF assumed that would be application-specific
* [10:29] Tao Takashi: so at some point we need to deal with the http people ;-) 
* [10:29] Neas Bade: well, we don't need to deal with them at all to just use 402 as is
* [10:29] Lalinda Lovell: theres already a new internet, we are the new intarweb
* [10:29] Neas Bade: it's already part of HTTP
* [10:29] Gary Grainger: /right i just wanted to make it clear that trying to limit it wont fix it
* [10:29] Tao Takashi: I don't have friends, this can be skipped
* [10:29] Prospero Linden: Groups
* [10:29] otakup0pe Neumann: yeah neas has a point. specifying the currenct can come in the body, custom header, whatev
* [10:29] Adam Xinpeng: raises hand again. (yay pest!)
* [10:29] Gary Grainger: /what friends?
* [10:29] Gareth Ellison: Neas - what action does a client take upon being given 402?
* [10:29] Prospero Linden: Groups belongs in agent domain
* [10:29] Gary Grainger: /my code and servers are my friends
* [10:30] Gareth Ellison: there's no standard for sending money over HTTP
* [10:30] Gary Grainger: /can i add my server to my friends list?
* [10:30] Prospero Linden: Profile should be in agent domain.
* [10:30] Tao Takashi: friends sounds like a common problem between dataportability and SL at least
* [10:30] Prospero Linden: shouldn't it?
* [10:30] Tao Takashi: so there they discuss FOAF and microformats for transferring it
* [10:30] otakup0pe Neumann: it should be in agent domain ?
* [10:30] Gareth Ellison: virtual bank notessigned by a chain of authority would work
* [10:30] Prospero Linden: Profile is part of your identity..... makes sense in agent domain
* [10:30] Saijanai Kuhn: why would it NOT? Unless there is somethign grid-specific
* [10:30] Tao Takashi: profile can be FOAF or hCard
* [10:30] otakup0pe Neumann: you can extend XMPP.
* [10:31] Gareth Ellison: groups - what if i want a group across agents in different domains?
* [10:31] Adam Xinpeng: It's XML yeah you can put extensions in it
* [10:31] Adam Xinpeng: Google?
* [10:31] Adam Xinpeng: AOL?
* [10:31] otakup0pe Neumann: heh.
* [10:31] Gareth Ellison: live in the agent domain of group creator but track foreign agents
* [10:31] otakup0pe Neumann: gtalk, yeah. what kind of numbers do you need zero
* [10:31] Gary Grainger: /raises hand
* [10:32] Phoenix Linden: is amused to be the author of the original (and 2nd and frequently 3rd) SL implementation of all phase 1 & 2 bullet points except for baked textures.
* [10:32] Neas Bade: is Mic still around
* [10:32] Adam Xinpeng: Heh.
* [10:32] Gareth Ellison: heh, can't be too pluggable
* [10:32] Neas Bade: he had some interesting scaling stories
* [10:32] Gareth Ellison: otherwise it'll never be implemented
* [10:33] otakup0pe Neumann: very new ground there i'll admit
* [10:33] otakup0pe Neumann: like i said object updates would be quite kinky.
* [10:33] Gareth Ellison: that's one of the good things that came out of the pretentious OOP-rules-all types
* [10:33] Prospero Linden: social networking stuff
* [10:34] otakup0pe Neumann: heh i think you just answered your question. "a bunch of tiny html pages"
* [10:34] Gary Grainger: /Using XMPP with LDAP works well enough for test case of 100 users. VCS integration synchronizes jabber IM logs with various aspects of the project management system. It's extensible enough to plug with multiple programming languages and a few databases, but scalability is probably nothing out of the box that LL needs.
* [10:35] Lalinda Lovell: yes
* [10:35] Python Morales: hm
* [10:35] Gary Grainger: /"Shipping boxes" binary objects that reside on the client which can be uploaded to each agent and popular the attributes of ones SL char
* [10:35] Adam Xinpeng: raises hand - it could be.
* [10:35] otakup0pe Neumann: sooner than currency that's for sure ;) 
* [10:35] Neas Bade: just as a for instance, I've got 280 people in my pidgin list
* [10:35] Gary Grainger: *populate
* [10:36] Prospero Linden: Yes, we want profile in place soon
* [10:36] Prospero Linden: look for your keys under the light
* [10:36] Prospero Linden: Facebook and MySpace are infinitely popular for a reason....
* [10:36] Gary Grainger: /Prospero, centralized
* [10:36] Neas Bade: +1 to both zha and prospero
* [10:36] Gary Grainger: /Syncrhronized
* [10:37] Saijanai Kuhn: LOL
* [10:37] Saijanai Kuhn: zero has zero presence right now
* [10:37] Zha Ewry: Autoreturned by your very own settings
* [10:37] Prospero Linden: Sure.... but agent domains, done right, will give you searchable and linkable profiles
* [10:37] Gary Grainger: /myspace, facebook, google, all popular because of the integration
* [10:37] Adam Xinpeng: raises hand again. heh.
* [10:37] Gareth Ellison: myspace + facebook, can you cross-friend between them?
* [10:37] otakup0pe Neumann: whee baked textures
* [10:37] otakup0pe Neumann: twitches
* [10:37] Tao Takashi: Adam: you chatty guy! ;-) 
* [10:38] Gareth Ellison: avoids such sites
* [10:38] Gary Grainger: /SL does a good job so far, it doesn't exactly mesh right in comparison, since Web 2.0 wasn't originally meant for the 3D space. I recommend some sort of caching system on the client that from a legal standpoint would require a one click agreement, with full transport of all SL attributes.
* [10:38] Prospero Linden: Gareth : dunno... and if they don't, maybe the metaverse profiles will kill them because you *can* cross-link :D
* [10:38] otakup0pe Neumann: this is another example of seperate standards.
* [10:38] Gareth Ellison: heh
* [10:38] Gareth Ellison: Prospero - not yet
* [10:38] Python Morales: so how is this about caching now?
* [10:38] otakup0pe Neumann: well the core would need "somethign about avatars" but not neccesarily all the gory details.
* [10:39] Gary Grainger: /I was talking in the context of interoperability
* [10:39] Gary Grainger: /With independent agents
* [10:39] Zero Linden: thinks about the early days of TIFF
* [10:39] Gigs Taggart: 32000 tags and nothing on
* [10:39] Prospero Linden: TIFF... UGH! Sometimes that still bites us.
* [10:39] Adam Xinpeng: Yeah, but we dont want to use the SL avatar as the global standard per-se.
* [10:39] Saijanai Kuhn: I'd say the global minimal standard
* [10:39] Prospero Linden: agrees with that
* [10:39] Gareth Ellison: Adam: we want various attributes that degraded gracefully
* [10:40] Gareth Ellison: graceful degradation like on the web (or how the web should be)
* [10:40] Python Morales: it might be interesting to look at the overlap of different avatar impls
* [10:40] Burhop Piccard: +2 for Zero.
* [10:40] Zha Ewry: Extension is vital
* [10:40] Prospero Linden: if we don't have enough standards, we'll be stuck in the world of the browser wars where objects mostly only work on one set of grids, or with one ste of viewrs.
* [10:40] Prospero Linden: Extension is vital, but also has dangers.
* [10:40] Gareth Ellison: at the core, we might only have VERY basic avatar and xolouea od akin, hIE ns wtwa + xlorhinf
* [10:40] Gary Grainger: /it was standards that kept the web growing
* [10:41] Gareth Ellison: ugh, screwed up there sorry
* [10:41] Gareth Ellison: lag == keyboard death
* [10:41] Prospero Linden: There need at least to be SHOULDs for avatars
* [10:41] otakup0pe Neumann: yeah prospero
* [10:41] Tree Kyomoon: / HTTP 0.9 pretty much assumed HTML, I think
* [10:41] Gary Grainger: /sl will not grow as quickly without these issues tended to. being vague on standards always is the worst thing that can be done. adopting existing specifications is a better idea.
* [10:41] Zha Ewry: stepwise refinement
* [10:41] Burhop Piccard: Agree with Zero on avatar. True for other geometry?
* [10:42] Prospero Linden: What if you're using Avatar type Beta, and go to a grid that doesn't support it? Are you just the quivalent of Ruth on the second grid?
* [10:42] Liana Linden: /BRB
* [10:42] Prospero Linden: +1
* [10:42] Phoenix Linden: / so let's talk about "appearance" as part of the specification with MAY at the start of most of the sentences
* [10:42] Prospero Linden: Need a core standard that everybody degrades
* [10:42] Gareth Ellison: Backwards compatibility fools
* [10:42] Tree Kyomoon: / +1 Zha
* [10:42] Prospero Linden: Need the equivalent of the "lynx supported" webpages.
* [10:42] Neas Bade: +1 to zha
* [10:42] Gareth Ellison: It's possible, so let's do it
* [10:43] Gary Grainger: I do not recommend backwards compatibility as being a priority, it stagnates implementing a better solution that is long-lasting and just better for scaling
* [10:43] Prospero Linden: would love it if Linden added mesh avatars :D
* [10:43] Gareth Ellison: lynx supports any properly designed website
* [10:43] otakup0pe Neumann: prospero puppeteerable mesh avatars ?
* [10:43] otakup0pe Neumann: ducks
* [10:43] Gareth Ellison: But the higher-capability browsers just add more
* [10:43] Prospero Linden: Gareth Ellison : yes.... because there's a definition of "properly defined" for web standards.
* [10:43] Gary Grainger: /SL wiki already recommends and intends to remove legacy interfaces, they just aren't good for extending
* [10:44] Gareth Ellison: Prospero - my point is that wwe should avoid the fate of the web and javascript
* [10:44] Python Morales: namespace ASInterfaces - public enum AvatarDataType { mesh = 1, skeleton, texture, shader, animation, material, ddsurface, collision }
* [10:44] Gareth Ellison: no "designed for SL" regions thanks
* [10:44] Prospero Linden: Gareth : what is the fate of the web and javascript?
* [10:44] Gary Grainger: /haha Gareth
* [10:44] otakup0pe Neumann: nods
* [10:44] Gareth Ellison: "best explored in metaverse explorer"
* [10:44] Prospero Linden: Yeah... no "Designed for <insert specific thing here>"
* [10:44] otakup0pe Neumann: it goes both ways, from the point of view of client and server.
* [10:44] Prospero Linden: Ugh
* [10:44] Gareth Ellison: Prospero - death
* [10:44] Python Morales: that's from \rex\avatarstorage\trunk\AvatarDBI\AvatarData.cs
* [10:44] Gary Grainger: /Prospero, my take is continued cpu use and different renderers
* [10:44] Prospero Linden: didn't realize that javascript was dead
* [10:44] Prospero Linden: thought the whole AJAX thing was the modern web
* [10:45] Gary Grainger: /it is the modern web, convoluted in all its glory :D
* [10:45] Hamilton Linden: so the real question is how to specify the standard so it is extensible
* [10:45] otakup0pe Neumann: heh. "Microsoft Metaverse Explorer" *twitch*
* [10:45] Tao Takashi: but AJAX is sort of a hack
* [10:45] Gary Grainger: /allow for some room to test, committees to approve major changes
* [10:45] Gareth Ellison: Prospero - sadly not yet
* [10:45] Liana Linden: /back
* [10:45] Jussi Hudson: / i really think we all should consider to separate avatar fromclient
* [10:45] Gareth Ellison: at least not yet dead as "extension, not core"
* [10:45] Tree Kyomoon: / ....AJAX: it's horrible and it's the best solution we have
* [10:45] Jussi Hudson: /in all vw solutions
* [10:45] otakup0pe Neumann: haha
* [10:45] Gary Grainger: /stay away from Adobe's stuff
* [10:46] Neas Bade: +1 to zero's last comment there
* [10:46] Gary Grainger: /HTTP/HTML
* [10:46] Prospero Linden: AJAX is like democracy? :D
* [10:46] Gareth Ellison: my bank insists on javascript to disable right-click
* [10:46] Burhop Piccard: +1 Zha
* [10:46] Gary Grainger: [/http://www.sparcdr.com/] WIN!
* [10:46] Gareth Ellison: it's scary
* [10:46] Gary Grainger: /best website, ever
* [10:46] Gary Grainger: /My index of / renders correctly on all browsers
* [10:46] Gary Grainger: /:-p
* [10:47] Prospero Linden: threw a fit at his former job (Vanderbilt) when their science outreach magazine went Flash-only and even thew out the old archived straight-HTML pages, including an article on his research.....
* [10:47] Gareth Ellison: AJAX is reasonable for some things, but should be an optional extra, not core
* [10:47] Burhop Piccard: But if 1% wants to see something else, there should be a way to do that.
* [10:47] Tao Takashi: Zero muted again? :) 
* [10:47] Gary Grainger: /atleast ecmascript has a specification
* [10:47] Zero Linden: / no, I was quiet
* [10:47] Tao Takashi: ok :) 
* [10:47] Gary Grainger: /adobe flash is proprietary, it limits the target audience, including legacy os users
* [10:47] Zero Linden: / for once!
* [10:47] Burhop Piccard: +1 base standard.
* [10:47] Zha Ewry: Quiet Zero? Alomost as rare as Quiet Zha.
* [10:47] Phoenix Linden: loves the idea of standardizing Ruth
* [10:47] Adam Xinpeng: AvatarML 4.1?
* [10:47] Prospero Linden: Is flash at least openly defined like PDF?
* [10:47] Adam Xinpeng: Heh.
* [10:47] Zha Ewry: blinks "Nah, nothing is as rare as quiet Zha."
* [10:48] Gareth Ellison: flash has some open implementations, i think due to reverse engineering though
* [10:48] Gary Grainger: /ActionScript is vaguely useful in the progress of a more widespread and long-lasting flash, but it's still encumbered and not extensible
* [10:48] Prospero Linden: Reverse engineering isn't good enough.... gotta have a documented spec.
* [10:48] Gary Grainger: /Stick with existing standards
* [10:49] Adam Xinpeng: Prospero: *cough* hehe.
* [10:49] Adam Xinpeng: makes a subtle reference to libsl
* [10:49] otakup0pe Neumann: wait really ? i thought we went till noon pdt.
* [10:49] Prospero Linden: Adam : yeah, I know, Linden isn't perfect yet :) But we're going in the right direction.
* [10:49] Burhop Piccard: I want a plugin but it is hard because you HAVE to see something.
* [10:49] Adam Xinpeng: Hehe
* [10:49] otakup0pe Neumann: heh adam.
* [10:49] Gary Grainger: /SLPlugin(TM)
* [10:50] Gareth Ellison: heh, is message_template.msg open enough?
* [10:50] Phoenix Linden: / let's assume that some of those will not be part of the standard and will instead be handled as extensions through capabilities
* [10:50] Adam Xinpeng: msg_template is incomplete. especially around caps. :) 
* [10:50] Phoenix Linden: / postcard
* [10:50] Gareth Ellison: all the UDP stuff is there
* [10:50] Gareth Ellison: i wish the caps messages were more documented
* [10:51] Prospero Linden: WE could solve a bunch of stuff by letting Agents receive "encoded" messages along the lines of MIME, so that one need not explicitly implement them.
* [10:51] otakup0pe Neumann: prospero +1
* [10:51] otakup0pe Neumann: heh +1 bit barf
* [10:51] Phoenix Linden: I see a lot of use in having Appendix A note 1) postcard capability.
* [10:51] Neas Bade: +1
* [10:51] Gareth Ellison: heh, how about actually using MIME for all CAPS stuff?
* [10:52] Saijanai Kuhn: the current Joy of Improved Instant Message
* [10:52] Zha Ewry: winges at MIME
* [10:52] Gareth Ellison: Goldie - each group has a home domain
* [10:52] Phoenix Linden: / not all viewers will support, and not all region domains will support it
* [10:52] Gary Grainger: void bitbarf() { int badstd = 1; }
* [10:52] Gareth Ellison: group members are stored as URLs
* [10:52] Neas Bade: zha: mime content types are a good thing :P
* [10:52] Tree Kyomoon: / this is where "MAY", "SHOULD", and "MUST" come in
* [10:52] Phoenix Linden: / the phases leave out object updates
* [10:52] Phoenix Linden: / and agent motion inside a region
* [10:52] Python Morales: right
* [10:52] Zha Ewry: Content types yes
* [10:52] Zha Ewry: encodings, no
* [10:52] Gareth Ellison: "i trust that these people are in this group"
* [10:52] Phoenix Linden: agreed
* [10:52] Prospero Linden: would propose a MUST on an "encoded" type, even if the payload can't be decoded
* [10:52] Gareth Ellison: "i trust this agent domain knows about it's own agents"
* [10:53] Saijanai Kuhn: The current handling for messages is all encapsulated in ImrpovedInstantMessage. Theose TYPES of messages should be handled in some way, I think
* [10:53] Python Morales: :) 
* [10:53] Saijanai Kuhn: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/ImprovedInstantMessage
* [10:53] Adam Xinpeng: What if we put the UDP message system as a CAP with the udp:// syntax?
* [10:53] Prospero Linden: Goldie : groups become complicated.
* [10:53] Phoenix Linden: it should be noted that region crossing is a sub-set of teleport
* [10:53] Gareth Ellison: groups are simple
* [10:53] Prospero Linden: Groups are already complicated, and only get more so :D
* [10:53] Tao Takashi: maybe groups need a rethought anyway
* [10:53] Zha Ewry: They are also over loaded
* [10:53] Burhop Piccard: Looking at Phase 3, do we need a "Geometry" or "mesh" or "base display" item?
* [10:53] Prospero Linden: Zha : right
* [10:53] Prospero Linden: Hugely
* [10:53] Adam Xinpeng: Burhop: definetly.
* [10:53] Gareth Ellison: you trust the home domain as knowing who belongs to that group
* [10:54] Phoenix Linden: however, we may want to have a concept of simulator neighbors
* [10:54] Phoenix Linden: isn't sure
* [10:54] Gareth Ellison: don't make me get my ego out and spec this before you :) 
* [10:54] Gareth Ellison: i have an army of red bull ready
* [10:55] Adam Xinpeng: I like lots of standards personally.
* [10:55] Zha Ewry: 
* [10:55] otakup0pe Neumann: that's the nice thing about standards... there are so many of them.
* [10:55] Prospero Linden: Standards documents can reference each other.
* [10:55] Burhop Piccard: Adam, more to choose from?
* [10:55] Adam Xinpeng: More along the lines of:
* [10:55] Adam Xinpeng: Metaverse + Metaverse IM
* [10:55] Adam Xinpeng: is what the client supports
* [10:55] Adam Xinpeng: It supports the core, and extension X, Y and Z.
* [10:55] Phoenix Linden: / wow, I'll have my name on a standard. :) 
* [10:55] Adam Xinpeng: where X Y and Z are other standards too.
* [10:56] otakup0pe Neumann: i once again bring up the way jabber rollrs with a core standard and the extension standards (XEP's)
* [10:56] Adam Xinpeng: otakup0pe: +1
* [10:56] Gareth Ellison: sane idea adam
* [10:56] Gareth Ellison: core + extensions
* [10:56] Phoenix Linden: / parcels are also pretty important in the overall system, but not addressed in the phases
* [10:56] Gareth Ellison: but one must carefully ensure the core stays core and we don't have unofficial extensions as part of core
* [10:57] Prospero Linden: Re: "put grids together" --> how much will region domains connect to region domains? Won't agent domains connect to region domains, and agent to agent (for friends)?
* [10:57] Aric Linden: /+1
* [10:57] Prospero Linden: I guess part of it depends on where assets live....
* [10:57] Phoenix Linden: / we should probably also define behavior under failure conditions.
* [10:57] Aric Linden: on modularity - it will make testing much easier as well
* [10:57] Tree Kyomoon: / the "framework" standards tend to trail "component" standards historically
* [10:57] Prospero Linden: is a little concerned about the term "grids", since that term conflates Agent and Region, which don't need to be conflated in the future.
* [10:58] Zero Linden: / +1 Prospero
* [10:58] Python Morales: Rob, intresting point
* [10:58] Gareth Ellison: MSPs - Metaverse Service Provider
* [10:58] Gareth Ellison: providing hosting of identity and/or regions and assets
* [10:58] Phoenix Linden: / no central services
* [10:59] Phoenix Linden: / think of them as meshes
* [10:59] Gigs Taggart: / we go to 11 :) 
* [10:59] Prospero Linden: Was it 'till 11, or till 12?
* [10:59] Beast Linden: /
* [10:59] Saijanai Kuhn: thot 12 but o well
* [10:59] Tao Takashi: I also thought 12
* [11:00] Phoenix Linden: is scheduled until 12
* [11:00] otakup0pe Neumann: hottt.
* [11:00] Saijanai Kuhn: wrap up until whenever
* [11:00] Gigs Taggart: 
* [11:00] Gareth Ellison: i got till my lag-phobia kills me
* [11:00] Yani Pinion: /sorry I need to go soon
* [11:00] otakup0pe Neumann: i've got a date with montr©al's underground city.
* [11:00] Zha Ewry: Blather ;-_)
* [11:00] Prospero Linden: w00t for Blather
* [11:01] Zha Ewry: lurves the blather
* [11:01] Phoenix Linden: / we should also cover logout in the spec. clean & disconnect.
* [11:01] otakup0pe Neumann: heh yeah agendas are awesome.
* [11:01] Adam Xinpeng: More regular AWG get togethers
* [11:01] Adam Xinpeng: like this
* [11:01] Adam Xinpeng: Once a month at least?
* [11:01] Neas Bade: +1 to Adam
* [11:01] otakup0pe Neumann: once a month seems hardcore but more than quarterly
* [11:01] Prospero Linden: I think I agree with ADam too... more regular "plenary" sessions
* [11:01] Tao Takashi: who needs logout?
* [11:01] Tao Takashi: you wait til you crash
* [11:01] Prospero Linden: Hardcore, but the metaverse moves fast :D
* [11:01] Saijanai Kuhn: AW Groupies happens once a week. Should we have a more formal AWG meeting on a regular biasis?
* [11:01] otakup0pe Neumann: tao or get an implant
* [11:02] Phoenix Linden: / an understanding of expected behavior under unexpected disconnects between agent and region should be covered
* [11:02] Neas Bade: I 'd agree with otakup0pe, every couple of months is probably often enough
* [11:02] Phoenix Linden: / ^^^ Tao
* [11:02] Tao Takashi: sure :) 
* [11:02] Adam Xinpeng: +1
* [11:02] otakup0pe Neumann: which spec ? heh :3
* [11:03] Tao Takashi: no, it's also me
* [11:05] Burhop Piccard: awww.... ustream.tv sound is gone :-( 
* [11:05] Prospero Linden: Innovation without "browser wars" sadness
* [11:05] Zha Ewry: yeah, new sadness, probably, but at least *different sadness*
* [11:06] Prospero Linden: Zha : but ideally minimzing the sadness... avoiding mutual incompatabilities as much as possible to avoid the "You need proprietary system X to use this needed content."
* [11:06] Prospero Linden: Even though we have that right now :) 
* [11:06] otakup0pe Neumann: i smell something.... it's either burnt toast or progress.
* [11:06] Neas Bade: sounds like the right summary to me
* [11:06] Adam Xinpeng: Sorry, toast is mine.
* [11:06] Tao Takashi: I wrote down some notes as well but maybe not complete
* [11:06] Tao Takashi: I will post it to the wiki and you can add to it
* [11:07] Tao Takashi: I will also post my recording to my blog
* [11:07] Prospero Linden: Has anybody figured out how to post a recording and a chat transcript so that the interaction between the two can be preserved?
* [11:07] Tao Takashi: and will post links to the ustream recording
* [11:07] Adam Xinpeng: Record the video. heh.
* [11:07] Prospero Linden: Timestamping in the recording?
* [11:07] Saijanai Kuhn: time stamp of each...
* [11:07] Phoenix Linden: / people are working on it
* [11:07] Yani Pinion: /ok I need to go, thanks everyone it was nice to get to know you
* [11:07] Prospero Linden: AAAAAA
* [11:07] Adam Xinpeng: Haha.
* [11:07] Prospero Linden: Flee
* [11:07] Adam Xinpeng: Evil man.
* [11:07] Gigs Taggart: I didn't hear it
* [11:08] Phoenix Linden: / can't protect anything you can see or hear
* [11:09] otakup0pe Neumann: Open Metaverse Foundation
* [11:09] otakup0pe Neumann: <_<
* [11:09] otakup0pe Neumann: >_>
* [11:09] Adam Xinpeng: metaversestandard.org ?
* [11:09] Burhop Piccard: awg.secondlife.com?
* [11:09] Zero Linden: / Y is the new X!
* [11:10] Saijanai Kuhn: MGA Meta-grid architecture
* [11:10] Python Morales: opengrid :p
* [11:10] Gary Grainger: uberopen.org
* [11:10] Prospero Linden: recommends not using the word "grid"
* [11:10] Zero Linden: / YOpen Grid
* [11:10] Gigs Taggart: aol.com
* [11:10] Prospero Linden: :) 
* [11:10] otakup0pe Neumann: haha gigs you griefer
* [11:10] Lalinda Lovell: t3hwebmastarz
* [11:10] Burhop Piccard: Gigs, LOL
* [11:10] tx Oh: /opencroquet.org
* [11:10] Gareth Ellison: OMF is teh l33t
* [11:10] Gary Grainger: eliteopenstds.com
* [11:10] Adam Xinpeng: zomgwtfbbqlol.
* [11:10] Prospero Linden: icanhazmetaverse.com
* [11:10] Python Morales: 'open' and 'grid' are not acronyms :) 
* [11:10] Neas Bade: heh
* [11:10] Saijanai Kuhn: YTL
* [11:10] Python Morales: i guess you'll then say 'og'
* [11:10] Gary Grainger: grand independent (grid)
* [11:10] Saijanai Kuhn: YTA?
* [11:11] Lalinda Lovell: infinitychan
* [11:11] Prospero Linden: Why not just "The Metaverse"?
* [11:11] Saijanai Kuhn: metaverse is a company name
* [11:11] Gary Grainger: open means Obtusely pervasive evangelist neanderthal :D
* [11:11] Python Morales: hee
* [11:11] Adam Xinpeng: Can we bring up roadblocks in other implementations quickly?
* [11:12] Adam Xinpeng: 
* [11:12] Gareth Ellison: how about "Living In The Electronic Simulated Internet Metaverse"? ;) 
* [11:12] Prospero Linden: Why doy ou need BSD? I thought OpenSim was all GPL... am I confused?
* [11:13] Zha Ewry: looks at Gareth with daggers in her eyes
* [11:13] Python Morales: opensim is bsd
* [11:13] Saijanai Kuhn: GPL overrides BSD
* [11:13] Prospero Linden: Ah, OK
* [11:13] Zha Ewry: BSD
* [11:13] Phoenix Linden: / llcommon and llmath should probably be unified and BSD'd
* [11:13] Adam Xinpeng: We're BSD
* [11:13] Zha Ewry: ApacheV2, would be lovely
* [11:13] Gareth Ellison: opensim is BSD yeah
* [11:13] Neas Bade: OpenSim is BSD
* [11:13] Prospero Linden: RealXTend must be GPL, yes?
* [11:13] Gareth Ellison: excuse my silly joke
* [11:13] Adam Xinpeng: MIT or ApacheV2 would be good.
* [11:13] Adam Xinpeng: Prospero: Yes, their viewer is.
* [11:13] Gareth Ellison: realxtend is GPL - based on LL's viewer
* [11:13] Zha Ewry: The Patent coverage would benice
* [11:13] Gary Grainger: agreed
* [11:13] Gary Grainger: gplv2 limits the reach
* [11:13] Python Morales: prosper - rexviewer is the linden code + rex stuff as gpl. rexserver is opensim plus rex stuff, is bsd
* [11:13] Gigs Taggart: llcommon/*
* [11:13] Prospero Linden: Also llmath?
* [11:14] Phoenix Linden: / anything not in llcommon & llmath?
* [11:14] Saijanai Kuhn: llvolume
* [11:14] Gary Grainger: CDDL has patent protection, and is derived from MPL, and it allows multi-license per file, and independent binary licensing provisions
* [11:14] Burhop Piccard: +1 adam
* [11:14] Saijanai Kuhn: I think Python coide is Creative Commons for LLSD. Maybe MIT
* [11:14] Zero Linden: / Woot!
* [11:14] Tao Takashi: I think I use this in my login server thingy
* [11:14] Python Morales: yah that seemed nice
* [11:15] Gary Grainger: it needs to be more limiting than say BSD, because BSD is public domain with copyright attribution basically.
* [11:15] Gigs Taggart: Gary: why?
* [11:15] Prospero Linden: winces preemptively
* [11:15] Gary Grainger: I suppose since most of SL is GPLv2, commercial entities cant use it anyways except to sell support and media.
* [11:16] Gareth Ellison: heh, how about making all the code GPL and then creative commons documenting the code?
* [11:16] Python Morales: " (Peterson, J., €Common Profile for Presence (CPP),€ August 2004.) defines semantics for an abstract presence service. An XMPP-CPIM gateway MAY function as such a presence service, and if so an XMPP entity can use defined XMPP syntax to interact with the gateway's presence service." .. reading 
* [11:16] Gary Grainger: check out CDDL v1.0
* [11:16] Python Morales: variety sounds good
* [11:16] Aminom Marvin: Hello. I just heard about this, but I have an important question. There are third-party programs such as Second Inventory that can download and transfer _all_ of one's inventory to another grid, such as opengrid. Does this break LL's DRM by allowing people to transfer content from its intended medium (a LL controlled grid)?
* [11:16] Prospero Linden: "are managed" = "are not excluded", you mean?
* [11:16] Lalinda Lovell: it only dl's items made by the owner afaik
* [11:16] Conover's Flight-Helper: 6.2.5.2 (WEAR ME!): Flight-helper is ready and operational.
* [11:16] Saijanai Kuhn: aninom I'm betting that anything full perms is ok. Other than that it gets tricky
* [11:16] HPC TP-HUD: 1.9a (WEAR ME): Adding 'thomas conover' to access-list...
* [11:17] Prospero Linden: agrees with that
* [11:17] Gary Grainger: meh stupid wget taking forever to grab this file
* [11:17] Adam Xinpeng: haha Dr.
* [11:17] Saijanai Kuhn: Current discussion page: 
* [11:18] otakup0pe Neumann: variety is the spice of life
* [11:18] Saijanai Kuhn: ack
* [11:18] Neas Bade: no complaints from me
* [11:18] Prospero Linden: fully agrees, but knows that some of those who are NOT here will be horrified by that decision.
* [11:18] Saijanai Kuhn: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Protecting_content_in_an_open_grid
* [11:18] Gary Grainger: /nice to have made it and been here the whole time. hope to see you all later in time on SL
* [11:18] Neas Bade: +1 zha
* [11:18] Burhop Piccard: +1 Zha
* [11:18] Tao Takashi: +1 of course :) 
* [11:18] Prospero Linden: hopes that various interests haven't lobbied governmental bodies to outlaw the genral-purpose computer before we get this all implemented... so that it's still LEGAL to have ourselves open to all implementations.
* [11:19] Gareth Ellison: i'm outta here
* [11:19] Gigs Taggart: It's already illegal. :P
* [11:19] Gareth Ellison: goodbye
* [11:19] Burhop Piccard: loves "Survival of the fittest"
* [11:19] Gary Grainger: bye guys
* [11:19] Movelock_shield whispers: Shield active.
* [11:19] Tao Takashi: ask other people and then it gets controversial ;-) 
* [11:19] Prospero Linden: Giggs : not *quiet* yet... granted I'm a felon for watching DVDs on my computer... or, anyway, fo rgetting the software to do that.... but still.
* [11:20] Gary Grainger: /Prospero, that's not your fault as a user, the demand is there, but the monopoly controls digital rights and the platforms in which these resources can be played on
* [11:20] Prospero Linden: Gary : right. And it's the monopoly more than the government -- although granted laws support it -- that restrict, which is why I say the general purpose computer is still leag.
* [11:21] Prospero Linden: legal
* [11:21] Gary Grainger: /Lack of antitrust regulation is the culprit for illegalizing what is truely legal, you bought the dvd, it shouldnt make a difference what platform. limiting it is a marketing tool at the hand of big corporations
* [11:21] Lalinda Lovell: wont ask whats on the DVDs to make you a felon :P
* [11:21] Gigs Taggart: CSS
* [11:21] Prospero Linden: Lalinda : it's not hte DVDs, it's the downloading of the playing sofwtare :D
* [11:21] Gary Grainger: Lovell, Content Scrambling System on non Windows/Mac platforms
* [11:21] Tao Takashi: of course I did already!
* [11:22] Prospero Linden: wouldn't bother... he'd use his l33t access to rip it straight from the access server. <flat voice> Moo, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. </flat voice>
* [11:22] Gary Grainger: /it's still grey area, the government says it's illegal, but cant prove it
* [11:22] Lalinda Lovell: sometimes the government makes rules that dont make sense, glad LL never does that......
* [11:22] Gary Grainger: /it shouldnt have the rights to limit what should be legal. and im not saying out of personal preference or need, it truely makes no sense for a central entity to put such restraints on what private sector says is fine
* [11:23] Prospero Linden: Is there really any other reasonable way?
* [11:23] Gary Grainger: /it's up to the publishers
* [11:23] Prospero Linden: All of it will be contractual, I suspect.
* [11:23] Neas Bade: also agree with zero
* [11:23] Gary Grainger: /DMCA makes no sense
* [11:23] Prospero Linden: E.g., Joe's Garage may say, "I trust everybody." But most people who aren't also in a garage will not trust Joe's Garage.
* [11:23] Adam Xinpeng: What about a license document?
* [11:24] Adam Xinpeng: IE: object X contains a XML tag [<license>http://someone.com/license.txt</license>]
* [11:24] Prospero Linden: suggests that if you are implementing an asset server, you have some way of tagging when things were created and by whom for purposes of tracing things down later.
* [11:24] Zha Ewry: Even if the license is there, the client does have the textures
* [11:24] Morgaine Dinova: It's a miracle that the RIAA hasn't been in here suing everyone that has a radio streaming on their plot. It'll come though, they're probably working on it.
* [11:24] Zha Ewry: Simply unavoidable
* [11:24] Saijanai Kuhn: the permissions bits ARE a licence tag
* [11:24] Prospero Linden: i.e. not enforcement, but so that if ther eis a legal challenge, people will have some way of documenting what they did and when.
* [11:24] Zha Ewry: I am a huge fan of intent makring
* [11:25] Gary Grainger: /I'm for DRM in the context of keeping legal affairs in check to affirm the continued existance of an entity. enforcement through governmental restriction is not a valid mechanism as publishers have the right to restrict specifically what is at stake.
* [11:25] Prospero Linden: sort of hopes that the future of IP really is social contracts.... but, what the heck.
* [11:25] Zha Ewry: nods at Propspero, but works with RL laywers
* [11:25] Tao Takashi: reminds me of all the barcamp discussions we had last weekend :) 
* [11:25] Tao Takashi: there it was about music industry..
* [11:25] Prospero Linden: is an idealist, likes to live in a dreamworld
* [11:26] Prospero Linden: One more proposal : kittens for everybody!
* [11:26] Burhop Piccard: Is www.dreamworld.com available?
* [11:26] Tao Takashi: thank you for making it happen :) 
* [11:26] Adam Xinpeng: Haha
* [11:26] Saijanai Kuhn: REminds everyone to join the AW Groupies if they're not a member. IM Zha, me or Tree Kyomoon for a group inivte
* [11:26] Burhop Piccard: Yes. inworld is good.
* [11:26] Tao Takashi: indeed
* [11:26] Gary Grainger: /i could ramble on and on about intellectual property, if i were to get into a discussion on the mic about it, im sure i could cover a lot of aspects. i suppose this is another thing that im definitely aware of, and it's of importance to me as a contractural employee, especially in the context of code, but also with content
* [11:27] Phoenix Linden: remember : the lindens present represent a larger percentage of the FT employees
* [11:27] Morgaine Dinova: Prospero: well that dreamworld was actually the original vision ... SL was to go beyond RL limits. Maybe we need more visionaries, want the job? :P
* [11:27] Burhop Piccard: did zero make the sun set has he wraps up? Its a nice touch.
* [11:27] Liana Linden: /Thanks everyone.
* [11:27] Tao Takashi: hehe :) 
* [11:27] Saijanai Kuhn: /clap
* [11:27] Neas Bade: :) 
* [11:27] Adam Xinpeng: :) 
* [11:27] Gorgon Smit: :) 
* [11:27] otakup0pe Neumann: i'll drink to that.
* [11:27] Tao Takashi: We are all the new Tim Berner-Lees ;-) 
* [11:27] Phoenix Linden: "admin"
* [11:27] Gary Grainger: /if any of you want to unofficially talk about DRM, IP, and legal rights via mic, just tell me when and where on SL
* [11:27] Liana Linden: /nope
* [11:27] Saijanai Kuhn: We are all Kosh
* [11:28] Saijanai Kuhn: Thanks. Liana. Thanks Zero
* [11:28] Adam Xinpeng: Haha
* [11:28] Neas Bade: heh
* [11:28] Saijanai Kuhn: awwwww
* [11:28] Gary Grainger: /PM me if you want to
* [11:28] Liana Linden: /Recording stopped
* [11:28] Gary Grainger: /thanks for holding the event
* [11:28] Zha Ewry: Anyone who wants to catchme, IM as always
* [11:28] Saijanai Kuhn: after meeting starting!!!
* [11:28] Neas Bade: thanks all
* [11:28] Adam Xinpeng: There are OpenSim office hours though
* [11:28] Adam Xinpeng: ;) 
* [11:28] Zha Ewry: And. I'll take friends offers as well
* [11:28] Adam Xinpeng: Tuesday 7PM GMT
* [11:28] Adam Xinpeng: OpenSim -- on OSGrid Wright Plaza
* [11:29] Tara5 Oh: thanks it was great to hear from you all
* [11:29] Adam Xinpeng: 
* [11:29] Gorgon Smit: /was nice being here, see you all!
* [11:29] Lalinda Lovell: yumm after meeting spam
* [11:29] Saijanai Kuhn: I've tried to put links to all related meetings, ircs, forums, mailing lists, etc., here:
* [11:29] Asura Arliss: When I did login here, i was suprised. I didnt know about this meeting
* [11:29] Saijanai Kuhn: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies#External_Links
Category:Architecture Working Group