Beta Server Office Hours/Minutes/2012-07-19

Category:Beta Server Office Hours - Minutes
This meeting was held on July 19, 2012
== Agenda ==
=== Updates ===
* Big week.
* Second Life Server Channel
* Creator Tools project.
** This has the Creator Tools project shipped to all regions, but disabled.
** https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Second_Life_Server/12#12.07.03.261171 
* BlueSteel RC Channel
* This is a "maint-server" project.
* Bug Fixes:
** : HUD Attachments Receive Infrequent Updates when Camera is Zoomed Out
** : [PUBLIC] Newly created notecards dont auto open in the viewer on 12.04.12.253726 
** : llGetAgentList() with scope AGENT_LIST_PARCEL or AGENT_LIST_PARCEL_OWNER returns empty list when attached to avatar 
** : Role 'Everyone' in new groups should not have ability "Pay group liabilities and receive group dividends" 
** : Top Scripts Refresh in Region/Estate Tools Broken 
** : Scripted agents can't abandon land on private estates 
** : HUD Attachments Receive Infrequent Updates when Camera is Zoomed Out
** : Filtering by object name or owner name in top scripts/top colliders no longer works
** : Excessive EnableSimulator message spamming to viewers 
** : Please automatically unmute avatars who have muted themselves, and prevent this from occuring server-side.
** https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Second_Life_RC_BlueSteel/12#12.07.18.262055 
* LeTigre RC Channel
* This is the Creator Tools project.
** The features are now enabled.
* Added three new LSL functions:
** llAttachToAvatarTemp(integer attach_point) -- Follows the same convention as llAttachToAvatar, with the exception that the object will not create inventory for the user, and will disappear on detach, or disconnect. It should be noted that when an object is attached temporarily, a user cannot 'take' or 'drop' the object that is attached to them. The user is 'automatically' made the owner of the object. Temporary attached items cannot use the llTeleportAgent or llTeleportAgentGlobalCoords LSL functions.
** llTeleportAgent(key agent_uuid, string lm_name, vector landing_point, vector look_at_point) -- Teleport Agent allows the script to teleport an agent to either a local coordinate in the current region or to a remote location specified by a landmark. If the destination is local, the lm_name argument is a blank string. The landing point and look at point are respected for this call. If the destination is remote, the object must have a landmark in its inventory with the teleport agent script. lm_name refers to the name of the landmark in inventory. This function cannot be used in a script in an object attached using llAttachToAvatarTemp.
** llTeleportAgentGlobalCoords(key avatar, vector global_coordinates, vector region_coordinates, vector look_at) -- Teleports an agent to region_coordinates within a region at the specified global_coordinates. The agent lands facing the position defined by look_at local coordinates. A region's global coordinates can be retrieved using llRequestSimulatorData(region_name, DATA_SIM_POS). This function cannot be used in a script in an object attached using llAttachToAvatarTemp.
* NOTES:
** The new LSL functions work with the current runtime permissions system and are precursor to future work with experience permissions. More information about the runtime permission is here: PERMISSION_TELEPORT.
** These functions only work on the RC regions and not grid wide.
* Bug Fixes
** : llTeleportAgent() does not fail gracefully when specifying an invalid landmark name
** : Magnum RC, llTeleportAgent gives a wrong message
** : llTeleportAgent always points in the positive Y direction on teleport
** https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Second_Life_RC_LeTigre/12#12.07.03.261171
* Magnum RC Channel
* This is the Pathfinding Project.
** Details are here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Pathfinding
** Pathfinding viewer here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Alternate_Viewers#Pathfinding
* Features and Changes
** Havok's AI library has been added so that navigation meta data for an entire region can be computed. This data is called the "navmesh".
** SL objects can be turned into "characters" which use the navmesh to navigate the world and avoid obstacles.
*** New LSL calls have been added to create/update/delete character behavior.
*** Characters cannot be used as attachments.
*** Characters are incompatible with some features, such as keyframed motion, being used as attachments, phantom, size changes, and others.
** Not all objects in the world contribute to the navmesh calculations.
*** The terrain always contributes
*** By default objects are ignored for the navmesh calculations.
*** Objects may be flagged to modify the navmesh calculations in one of 4 ways:
**** "Walkable" objects add navigable zones to the navmesh.
**** "Static Obstacle" objects cannot be navigated, and create a hole in the nav mesh
**** "Exclusion Volume" objects are like static obstacles, except that they are phantom (meaning that pathfinding characters cannot move through them but other physical objects and avatars can)
**** "Material Volume" objects are phantom objects that can be set to change the walkability coefficients of an area of the navmesh
**** Material volumes and walkable objects have 4 walkability coefficients to determine how expensive they are for each category of character
*** Objects that contribute to the navmesh have special restrictions:
**** Objects that contribute to the navmesh cannot change their physical shape via LSL script (changing object position, shape parameters, scale, rotation, physics shape type, and linking/unlinking is generally blocked)
**** Objects that contribute to the navmesh can be physically changed via the build tool by avatars who have modify permission and if the avatar is in the same region as the object.
**** In other words: objects that contribute to the navmesh cannot be physically changed by avatars who are located in a different region than the object, and therefore such objects cannot be moved across region boundaries.
*** When the navmesh has been modified, either because the terrain has been edited or because an object contributing to the nav mesh was rezzed/modified/deleted, it must be manually regenerated.
*** The pathfinding project viewer can be used to modify the pathfinding settings in a region: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Alternate_Viewers#Pathfinding 
*** Parcels that are set No-Entry for objects will cut the navmesh at their borders -- characters will not be able to navigate across it.
** The collision pipeline has been reorganized. This may affect avatar collisions/control, vehicle movement, and collision callbacks in LSL scripts.
** The terrain collision shape has been changed from a "heightfield" to a "mesh" to provide more efficient collisions, ray-trace, and navmesh computations.
*** This may change some collision details. In particular see the "Known Issues" list below.
*** When changing the terrain its visible appearance will update immediately, but its collision shape will not. 
*** The server will wait at least 10 seconds since the last change before computing the new shape, and the computation time may take several seconds.
*** Where there is a discrepancy between visible and colliding terrain shapes object and avatar collisions may appear incorrect.
** Fix for "llCastRay returns RCERR_CAST_TIME_EXCEEDED until the sim is rebooted"
** Avatars which are sitting on an object can no longer freeze it by selecting it, if they don't have permission to freeze it while standing.
** More details about pathfinding can be found at http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Pathfinding and its linked pages
* Changed prim accounting for legacy prims which use the new accounting system
** All legacy-style prims have their streaming cost capped at 1.0 (except for sculpts, which will be capped at 2.0). This provides the benefit of not penalizing prim-based creators for optimizing their content by opting into the new system and will make the streaming cost more reflective of the true network cost of the objects.
** Server cost will be adjusted to MIN{ (0.5*num_prims) + (0.25 * num_scripts), num_prims }. This preserves the current value for unscripted linksets and reduce the cost for linksets containing fewer than 2*num_prims scripts. It provides the benefit of rewarding creators for reducing the number of scripts in their objects.
* Fixed the following bugs since the 12.06.23.260473 Pathfinding RC
** Ground Sit in a pathfinding region causes appearance to not match real location
** Sim crossings by objects is broken
** Other internal bugfixes
** https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Second_Life_RC_Magnum/12#12.07.18.262060 
* PathFinding User Group right after this meeting.
=== Upcoming Stuff ===
=== Interesting Stuff ===
* Pathfinding Beta Regions Live on AGNI
** https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Pathfinding_Public_Beta
* https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Good_Building_Practices
** Share that link.
=== Transcript ===
Transcript of Oskar Linden's Server Beta User Group for July 19, 2012:
* [15:01] Moundsa Mayo: Oskar alert!!
* [15:01] Motor Loon: ey Oskar
* [15:01] Kallista Destiny: Ave Oskar
* [15:01] Talia Malaspina: HI Gramma! HI Oskar!
* [15:02] Oskar Linden: hello hello hello
* [15:02] Motor Loon: So... here we are again
* [15:02] Gramma Fiddlesticks: Hi Talia. Long time no see.
* [15:02] Oskar Linden: how is everyone today?
* [15:02] Rex Cronon: hi oskar
* [15:02] Gramma Fiddlesticks: Not nearly as much as I use to be. =)
* [15:02] Kallista Destiny: Ave Oskar, laguri te salutant!
* [15:02] Rex Cronon: hi everybody
* [15:03] Oskar Linden: I'm going to need some coffee
* [15:03] Oskar Linden: just giving you all a warning
* [15:03] Gramma Fiddlesticks: nice to see you too.
* [15:03] Gramma FiddlesticksGramma Fiddlesticks has coffee alreAdy!
* [15:03] Kallista Destiny: do yawn, you'll set him off
* [15:04] Oskar Linden: :-)
* [15:04] Kallista DestinyKallista Destiny has had 6 cups alread
* [15:04] Nalates Urriah: So, if we start singing lullabyes, the meeting is over?
* [15:04] Oskar Linden: I'll grab some after this meeting at the coffee shop a few blocks away
* [15:04] Oskar Linden: get me a nice cappuccino
* [15:04] Oskar Linden: a double even
* [15:04] Gramma FiddlesticksGramma Fiddlesticks keeps the coffee pot going all day. *grins
* [15:04] Moundsa Mayo: Maestro Alert!
* [15:04] Oskar Linden: double short
* [15:04] Oskar Linden: that's me
* [15:04] Grid Crash Protection Box: Theresa Tennyson, you are now shielded from the effects of any Grid crashes which might occur!
* [15:05] Kaine Lowenstark: God bless the tuppie that invented espresso shots
* [15:05] Grid Crash Protection Box: Theresa Tennyson, you are no longer protected from the vagaries of the Grid - beware!
* [15:05] Oskar Linden: italians
* [15:05] Oskar Linden: anyway
* [15:05] Oskar Linden: welcome one and all
* [15:05] Oskar Linden: to the fabulous server beta usergroup
* [15:06] Gramma Fiddlesticks: Yay!
* [15:06] Oskar LindenOskar Linden tosses confetti
* [15:06] Oskar Linden: here we have this weeks agenda
* [15:06] Oskar Linden: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Server_Beta_User_Group
* [15:06] Oskar Linden: tada
* [15:06] Kallista Destiny: Yey, yay
* [15:06] Oskar Linden: and that concludes this weeks meeting
* [15:06] Oskar Linden: have a good weekend everyone
* [15:06] Oskar LindenOskar Linden logs off
* [15:06] Gramma Fiddlesticks: great meeting!
* [15:06] Oskar Linden: :-D
* [15:06] Oskar Linden: anyway
* [15:07] Oskar Linden: these weeks when we have three RC's are really confusing
* [15:07] Oskar Linden: so much to watch and monitor and track
* [15:07] Gramma Fiddlesticks: o-0
* [15:07] Oskar Linden: I appreciate all your help to find issues
* [15:07] Oskar Linden: we'll start at the top
* [15:08] Oskar Linden: main channel
* [15:08] Oskar Linden: this has the Creator Tools updates
* [15:09] Oskar Linden: the updates that are disabled
* [15:09] Oskar Linden: :-)
* [15:09] Oskar Linden: so it was an easy promotion
* [15:09] Oskar Linden: we had some fun behind the scenese monday and tuesday when our build system wasn't building
* [15:09] Oskar Linden: we almost didn't have enough time to get things QA'd
* [15:10] Gramma Fiddlesticks: uh oh. That's not so good huh?
* [15:10] Oskar Linden: it may not seem like it from the outside but we have very tight deadlines here
* [15:10] Oskar Linden: and there is no time for systems to fail
* [15:10] Oskar Linden: we ship RC's Wednesday, then watch them Wed/Thur
* [15:10] Talia Malaspina: Offer the QA folks more free chocolate and soda and they'll work overnight.
* [15:10] Oskar Linden: by Friday AM we have to choose whoe gots promoted the next week
* [15:10] Motor Loon: that gotta keep ya busy with Murphy's laws and all ,-)
* [15:11] Oskar Linden: then each of the next weeks RC's have to take those changes and merge them in to the ir code
* [15:11] Oskar Linden: look for merge issues
* [15:11] Oskar Linden: get the code built and deployed
* [15:11] Oskar Linden: to ADITI
* [15:11] Oskar Linden: then QA'd for smoke tests and functional verifications
* [15:11] Oskar Linden: all before Tuesday night so we know what goes out Wednesday AM
* [15:11] Oskar Linden: it takes a good day of QA to run a smoke + functional verification
* [15:11] Oskar Linden: so that is a tight timeframe
* [15:12] Oskar Linden: not sure if you are curious but that's what our days look like
* [15:12] Gramma Fiddlesticks: thanks.
* [15:12] Oskar Linden: :-)
* [15:12] Kaine Lowenstark: I was, thank you
* [15:12] Motor Loon: I just figured ya'all hung out in the offices playing Minecraft most of the day
* [15:12] Oskar Linden: oftentimes we have to make a lot of decisions on the fly and then adjust the communications
* [15:12] Oskar Linden: no time for minecraft
* [15:13] Oskar Linden: so I made a bot to play for me
* [15:13] Oskar Linden: he has so much fun
* [15:13] Talia Malaspina: heehe!
* [15:13] Motor Loon: Good thinking!
* [15:13] Oskar Linden: I'm happy for him I guess
* [15:13] Gramma Fiddlesticks: too busy dodging live mines?
* [15:13] Motor Loon: he can also do vacations for you
* [15:13] Kaine Lowenstark: You should get a tekkit server for the bot, then you can automate your automator
* [15:13] Oskar Linden: no, I need my vacations for sure
* [15:13] Oskar Linden: no one does vacations for me
* [15:13] Motor Loon: hehe
* [15:13] Oskar Linden: so yeah main channel got creator tools
* [15:13] Gramma Fiddlesticks: *grins
* [15:14] Kaine Lowenstark: nothing blew up yet and no grid warnings about forced teleport guns
* [15:14] Oskar Linden: but disabled
* [15:14] Kaine Lowenstark: I approve ^_^
* [15:14] Oskar Linden: then we decided last minute to put the enabled creator tools on LeTigre
* [15:14] Kaine Lowenstark: So that is correct, I was wondering reading the notes
* [15:14] Oskar Linden: we can do that easily since it is just a config change
* [15:14] Oskar Linden: the deploy takes like 5 minutes
* [15:14] Motor Loon: Did i read it correctly at first when it said PF to go on LeTigre
* [15:14] Oskar Linden: PF was planned for LeTigre but we changed it last minute
* [15:14] Oskar Linden: things move fast here :-)
* [15:15] Motor Loon: ...whew... than I wasn't going nuts
* [15:15] Motor LoonMotor Loon cancels his doctors appointment
* [15:15] Oskar Linden: but right now we're looking into an issue that had the live config deploy fail on half of LeTigre
* [15:15] Kaine Lowenstark: Did the issue with objects crossing between PF and non PF sims find a resolution?
* [15:15] Oskar Linden: so half of LT has the CT project
* [15:15] Oskar Linden: and the other half doesn't yet
* [15:15] Oskar Linden: so...
* [15:15] Oskar Linden: yeah
* [15:15] Oskar Linden: coyot is working to figure that out now
* [15:15] Kaine Lowenstark: good old coyot
* [15:16] Motor Loon: you saying it MIGHT be able to be fixed before full PF rollout?
* [15:16] Gramma FiddlesticksGramma Fiddlesticks wishes Coyot lottsa luck
* [15:16] Motor Loon: I thought it was something you couldnt do anything about
* [15:16] Oskar Linden: the LT stuff has no bearing on the PF deploy
* [15:16] Kaine Lowenstark: ah, kk
* [15:16] Oskar Linden: oh the PF crossing issue
* [15:16] Motor Loon: arh ... got confused... you was talking about CT
* [15:16] Oskar Linden: it's known and expected and won't be fixed before deploy
* [15:16] Kaine Lowenstark: Ok, right
* [15:16] Oskar Linden: because once deployed it won't be an issue
* [15:17] Motor Loon: indeed
* [15:17] Motor Loon: just a bitch until then
* [15:17] Oskar Linden: well we've been keeping an eye on it
* [15:17] Kallista Destiny: Differen Havok versons.
* [15:17] Motor Loon: a ugly bitch even
* [15:17] Oskar Linden: and moving regions that have the issue the most to the same version
* [15:17] Kallista Destiny: it's a PITA in some places
* [15:17] Oskar Linden: last week we only had to move 7 regions
* [15:17] Maestro Linden: the bug where non-mesh objects couldn't cross from PF to non-PF regions has been fixed for a few weeks now, Motor
* [15:17] Oskar Linden: so it's really not happening in a lot of places
* [15:17] Motor Loon: Blake sea needs a helping hand for sure
* [15:17] Maestro Linden: it's just the mesh case, which is expected to fail, which still happens
* [15:18] Motor Loon: sailing is a pain in mesh boats right now
* [15:19] Oskar Linden: we could force the weather to be stormy
* [15:19] Kaine Lowenstark: Now, the creators tools and Pathfinding, are either of those related to the new LI updates for sculpts and prims and scripts in mesh content?
* [15:19] Oskar Linden: you know
* [15:19] Oskar Linden: since its not sailing weather
* [15:19] Motor Loon: might work °͜°
* [15:19] Oskar Linden: LI updates?
* [15:19] Theresa Tennyson: Land Impact
* [15:20] Nalates Urriah: PF changes some Lanf Impact costs
* [15:20] Motor Loon: mesh accounting changes
* [15:20] Oskar Linden: oh right
* [15:20] Oskar Linden: I'm not up to speed on all the details
* [15:20] Oskar Linden: Maestro probablty is
* [15:20] Motor Loon: it's quite wonderful
* [15:20] Kaine Lowenstark: Apparently the LI calculations were going to be updated, and I hear it associated with PF but I am not sure if they are the same project release wise
* [15:20] Motor Loon: they are
* [15:20] Talia Malaspina: It didn't work in the movie Truman.
* [15:20] Kaine Lowenstark: Ok
* [15:20] Kaine Lowenstark: Beaut :)
* [15:21] Motor Loon: LI changes seems to be as promised on what I have tested on my magnum sim
* [15:21] Oskar Linden: cool
* [15:22] Kaine Lowenstark: So they are out already?
* [15:22] Oskar Linden: the OF changes are on Magnum
* [15:22] Oskar Linden: PF
* [15:22] Motor Loon: now we just need PF rolled out to main ,-) lets do it tomorrow... screw the bugs...
* [15:22] Kaine Lowenstark: Ok, because I think our home sim is magnum ^_^
* [15:22] Theresa Tennyson: Motor, do you volunteer to take complaints?
* [15:22] Motor Loon: yes
* [15:23] Motor Loon: I have a large large trashcan
* [15:23] Maestro LindenMaestro Linden notes it
* [15:23] Oskar Linden: PF will not be rolled next week
* [15:23] Oskar Linden: so...
* [15:23] Oskar Linden: FYI
* [15:23] Kaine Lowenstark: I'll take half of the complaints, as well
* [15:23] Oskar Linden: so it will be in RC one more week at least
* [15:23] Motor Loon: didnt expect it to Oskar °͜°
* [15:23] Kaine LowenstarkKaine Lowenstark notes
* [15:23] Motor Loon: 3-4 more weeks atleast eh
* [15:23] Oskar Linden: :-)
* [15:23] Oskar Linden: we're targetting 2016
* [15:23] Oskar Linden: or earlier
* [15:23] Kaine Lowenstark: I kind of figured given the murmurs across the grid
* [15:23] Motor Loon: thats a good target
* [15:23] Gramma Fiddlesticks: *evil grin
* [15:24] Kaine Lowenstark: If you make it coincide with the 2030 or later expected date for custom non avatar armatures, Id hug you
* [15:24] Oskar Linden: uhh that's kinda it for updates
* [15:24] Oskar Linden: maestro did you have anything?
* [15:24] Maestro Linden: Nope, nothing in particular
* [15:25] Motor Loon: Anyone know if theres a Jira on moving between e.g. Magnum and Bluesteel (which is where I've seen it) and your avatar after the crossing jumps like 20m into the sim instead of just crossing normally?
* [15:25] Maestro Linden: It's between Bluesteel and anywhere else, Motor
* [15:25] Motor Loon: ah ok
* [15:25] Maestro Linden: but between 2 bluesteel sims it's fine
* [15:25] Motor Loon: Bluesteel has a few odd's
* [15:25] Maestro Linden: I think we'll end up fixing it by deploying bluesteel code everywhere :)
* [15:25] Motor Loon: there's also the SVC-8050
* [15:25] Flame of Jira: [#SVC-8050] Crossing between BlueSteel sims and sims running different simulator versions causes loss of animation offsets https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-8050
* [15:25] Maestro Linden: there's an animation oddity when driving a vehicle between two bluesteel regions too
* [15:26] Maestro Linden: yes
* [15:26] Gramma Fiddlesticks: good choice. =x
* [15:26] Maestro Linden: er
* [15:26] Motor Loon: I know we found a workaround ... but its still an annoying bug
* [15:26] Maestro Linden: not 'between two bluesteel regions', I mean, between bluesteel and non-bs
* [15:26] Motor Loon: yeah
* [15:26] Motor Loon: hehe
* [15:26] Motor Loon: bs
* [15:27] Theresa Tennyson: Magnum Sandbox 3 on Agni is acting oddly - I haven't been able to enter on my motorcycle. The other sandboxes of that cluster work fine, and it was still happening after the server rolls this week.
* [15:27] Kallista Destiny: PhD, Piled higher and Deeper
* [15:27] Maestro Linden: yeah, Coyot always puts BS first in his RC rolls :)
* [15:27] Motor Loon: °͜°
* [15:27] Talia MalaspinaTalia Malaspina eeps.
* [15:27] Maestro Linden: Okay, Theresa. I might try restarting it
* [15:27] Theresa Tennyson: Thank you.
* [15:27] Maestro Linden: I wouldn't be surprised if somebody griefed it, putting it into a bad state
* [15:27] Oskar Linden: those griefers
* [15:27] Motor Loon: Kill'em with fire
* [15:28] Oskar Linden: ima ban everyone from my sandboxes
* [15:28] Talia Malaspina: Noooo!
* [15:28] Oskar Linden: now wher edid I put that ban hammer
* [15:28] Kallista Destiny: Like those Griefers that Griefed the Tour de France
* [15:28] Kaine LowenstarkKaine Lowenstark is guilty of using a quilt rack gun earlier
* [15:28] Nalates Urriah: Thor swiped it
* [15:28] Rex Cronon: how r u going to test them? using telekinesis:)
* [15:28] Maestro Linden: okay, that region should restart soon
* [15:28] Motor Loon: "Flashing girls are *not* considering greifers"
* [15:28] Maestro Linden: Oh by the way, I did a region crossing performance test just before this huddle
* [15:29] Maestro Linden: between 2 pathfinding regions, then between 2 main channel version regions
* [15:29] Maestro Linden: it's the same
* [15:29] Maestro Linden: like 50.9ms average vs 51.1ms average, crossing on a mesh motorcycle 40 times each
* [15:29] Kaine Lowenstark: not sure if happy or not XD I was hoping youd fix that speed of light issue by now
* [15:29] Motor Loon: Good to hear
* [15:30] Oskar Linden: :-)
* [15:30] Motor Loon: Would it have been possible to block mesh vehicles from ENTERING a PF region too?
* [15:30] Theresa Tennyson: Does the navmesh take the same amount of time to load that the old height field does? Usually you only cross into a region ONCE so it's the first time that's important.
* [15:31] Oskar Linden: we do have some upcoming region crossing work getting close to RC
* [15:31] Oskar Linden: that will be cool
* [15:31] Motor Loon: the most annoying things is that you CAN enter them... but can't leave them again now...
* [15:31] Kallista Destiny: Hotel California RC
* [15:31] Maestro Linden: I believe the path the viewer takes to download the visible terrain is the same Theresa
* [15:31] Nalates Urriah: Is that Phase II stuff, or did the plan change with Shining?
* [15:32] Nalates Urriah: multithread pahse II
* [15:32] Maestro Linden: like if you terraform on a pathfinding region, you see the terrain move immediately, even though the physics shape of the terrain isn't regenerated until a bit later
* [15:33] Kaine Lowenstark: is the physics shape more accurate to the actual shape of the land? It's been a while since I walked on anythign but a prim but I remeber soft spots being a problem
* [15:33] Theresa Tennyson: When I tested the Magnum sandbox sims with tActually the physics shape has nasty pointy parts in places.
* [15:33] Motor Loon: yeah I've heard people whine about that Maestro... digging out a swimming pool and jumping in, only to find physics from the ground was still there... BAM! faceplant...
* [15:34] Kaine Lowenstark: A metaphor for my social life
* [15:34] Motor Loon: atleast we now know how Jesus managed to walk on water...
* [15:34] Rex Cronon: maybe it was just "hard water":)
* [15:34] Theresa Tennyson: Re-typing - actually the navmesh polygons have weird points in places that aren't reflected in the ground profile.
* [15:34] Oskar Linden: mesh shoes
* [15:34] Nalates Urriah: good one Motor
* [15:34] Motor Loon: °͜°
* [15:34] Motor Loon: I'm here all week!
* [15:34] Maestro Linden: You can view the physics shape of the terrain using the pathfinding viewer
* [15:35] Motor Loon: whats the "normal" time it takes for it to change?
* [15:35] Motor Loon: after terraforming
* [15:35] Maestro Linden: the viewer's image of the terrain is compressed in such a way that it's inaccurate in steep parts
* [15:36] Maestro Linden: I think there's a period of time (5s?) where the simulator waits to verify that people stopped reshaping the terrain
* [15:36] Maestro Linden: and then the sim kicks off a thread to generate the new terrain mesh
* [15:36] Maestro Linden: the time that the thread takes depends on the complexity of the terrain shape, and probably how heavily the sim host is loaded
* [15:36] Kallista Destiny: lol given the way that some people terriform it;ll alwasy be regenerating
* [15:37] Kaine Lowenstark: <_<
* [15:37] Kaine Lowenstark: >_>
* [15:37] Kaine Lowenstark: Yeah , "Some people"
* [15:37] Maestro Linden: I think it usually takes about.. 20 seconds?
* [15:37] Kaine Lowenstark: I'll go with that
* [15:37] Gramma Fiddlesticks: take that back kaine!
* [15:37] Maestro Linden: I haven't timed it
* [15:37] Kallista Destiny: Me for one, I'm terrible
* [15:37] Maestro Linden: you can find out precisely by lowering the terrain then standing over the lowered bit
* [15:37] Talia Malaspina: I don't want to sidetrack, but can someone send me info on getting started with pathfinding?
* [15:37] Theresa Tennyson: Ground vehicles don't work as well on the new surfaces sometimes - they get hung up on points sometimes.
* [15:38] Motor Loon: ok, I was just wondering if we was talking seconds, minutes or hours °͜°
* [15:38] Lucia Nightfire: is that timed increment updating or not
* [15:38] Lucia Nightfire: meaning
* [15:38] Maestro Linden: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Pathfinding Talia
* [15:38] Kaine Lowenstark: Will there be performance issues aside from the physics shape not matching the visible terrain for frequesnt tereformers?
* [15:38] Kaine Lowenstark: Specifically finding a spot, smoothing it, an hour later finding another spot...
* [15:38] Maestro Linden: also https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Pathfinding_Quick_Start_Guide and the other linked wiki pages
* [15:38] Lucia Nightfire: would a scripted terraformed raisign and lowering the land in an adjacent parcel prolong the entire region land updating?
* [15:39] Talia Malaspina: oh, ty! Hmm, I didn't see that last time I looked. cool. :)
* [15:39] Lucia Nightfire: *scripted terraforming object
* [15:39] Talia Malaspina: ty twice. :)
* [15:39] Theresa Tennyson: Can you directly edit a vertex in the navmesh or do you have to edit the terrain and see what happens?
* [15:39] Maestro Linden: No, I don't think there will be a visible difference in most cases, Kaine
* [15:39] Maestro Linden: by the way guys, we should probably save the pathfinding talk for the next office hour
* [15:39] Maestro Linden: which is about pathfinding
* [15:39] Motor Loon: nods
* [15:39] Kaine Lowenstark: but then we will know and it wont be nearly half as fun
* [15:40] Lucia Nightfire: I'll test my theory and make a jira if it is exploitable
* [15:40] Maestro Linden: Theresa: you may be able to control it pretty precisely by uploading a photoshop image
* [15:40] Maestro Linden: that funky 7-layer format
* [15:41] Maestro Linden: I'm not sure it's worth a Jira, Lucia. If you've setup your region to allow anybody to terraform, or have griefer parcel owners, you're totally exposed to griefing.
* [15:41] Maestro Linden: aside from any terraforming performance issues
* [15:41] Kaine Lowenstark: Maestro,I believe the issue is mainland, where I might not own the entire sim
* [15:42] Lucia Nightfire: yes, what I was getting at, but estates can potentially have the same issue
* [15:42] Maestro Linden: Check it out, I guess.
* [15:42] Lucia Nightfire: mainly concerned due to the anonymous ability to cause havok in updating an entire region
* [15:42] Maestro Linden: The solution would probably be to disable 'anybody can terraform' at the server levle
* [15:43] Maestro Linden: and if you have griefing parcel owners, they can do far worse by e.g. rezzing physical interlocking tori
* [15:43] Oskar Linden: shh
* [15:43] Motor Loon: true °͜°
* [15:44] Kaine Lowenstark: in order to become an issue, you would have to have had someone begin the terra griefing right after or during a major terreforming session yourself, which is unlikely
* [15:44] Maestro Linden: so they would just terraform continuously so the sim would never apply your changes?
* [15:44] Maestro Linden: well, not until the sim was restarted
* [15:44] Oskar Linden: hmm
* [15:44] Maestro Linden: it seems like a lot of work for a subtle effect, to me :)
* [15:44] Kaine Lowenstark: so a sim restart forces the issue?
* [15:44] Lucia Nightfire: an object on someone else's land that can terroform up and down repeatedly
* [15:45] Maestro Linden: yes I'm pretty sure it would cause the terrain to regenerate if it was out of date
* [15:45] Lucia Nightfire: and yes, theres alreadya problem with obejcts left on 0 return land on the Mainland
* [15:45] Lucia Nightfire: and with peopel not setting up their parcels correctly
* [15:45] Lucia Nightfire: but not much you can do abotu ti
* [15:46] Motor Loon: well, an AR on such an item created to block terraforming updates you'd assume would cause the GovTeam to remove it eh?
* [15:46] Lucia Nightfire: maybe the updater just needs to only wait for terraforming done by peopel, not scritps, heh
* [15:46] Lucia Nightfire: also
* [15:47] Lucia Nightfire: said object doesn't necessarily give away that its doing it
* [15:47] Kaine LowenstarkKaine Lowenstark isnt sure this form of griefing is out or the realm of possibility
* [15:47] Lucia Nightfire: yeah, I mainly chimed in when I heard that updating waited on terraformign to be down
* [15:48] Lucia Nightfire: and the thought of it being prolonged by script anonymously popped in my mind, heh
* [15:48] Rex Cronon: u can add 2 viewer option 2 highlight terraforming objects
* [15:48] Lucia Nightfire: *done
* [15:48] Motor Loon: wicked mind there °͜°
* [15:48] Oskar Linden: heh
* [15:48] Lucia Nightfire: I deal with sandboxes daily and everythign you can think of that goes on in them
* [15:48] Kaine Lowenstark: fills up an hour qhile Oskar deams of coffee
* [15:49] Oskar Linden: :-D
* [15:49] Oskar Linden: what would SL be without new vectors of griefing?
* [15:49] Kaine Lowenstark: Ahh sandboxes, do they still have the little particles of fish and genetalia and bees that chase you?
* [15:49] Lucia Nightfire: half boring
* [15:50] Talia Malaspina: Fish and genitals and bees! Oh my!
* [15:50] Oskar Linden: it's all mesh phallus now
* [15:50] Kaine Lowenstark: Griefing, a subtle hint to buy your own land when you are ready
* [15:50] Maestro Linden: Okay, I checked something with Andrew
* [15:50] Maestro Linden: if you hit 'rebake navmesh', the terrain shape is forced to update to whatever the current shape is
* [15:50] Maestro Linden: before it regenerates the navmesh
* [15:50] Kaine Lowenstark: Oh god, they have a hard enough time skin toning sculpted ones. now the griefers are going to have inverted normals and everything
* [15:50] Maestro Linden: future griefing averted! :P
* [15:51] Kaine Lowenstark: ( because really, that's what offends people, poor craftmenship )
* [15:51] Maestro Linden: So, how're the new attachment/TP functions looking on LeTigre?
* [15:51] Oskar Linden: for the 50% of the sims that got the change
* [15:51] Lucia Nightfire: half the Tigre sims have the functiosn off, lol
* [15:51] Talia Malaspina: I'm seeing in my head a terraform bot that continually sends 'update navmesh' requests.
* [15:51] Maestro Linden: that's curious
* [15:51] Maestro Linden: which ones, Lucia?
* [15:52] Oskar Linden: Maestro, read #deploy
* [15:52] Kaine Lowenstark: Ask Oskar XD
* [15:52] Oskar Linden: :-)
* [15:52] Maestro Linden: Oh.
* [15:52] Oskar Linden: how many of you have seen this: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Good_Building_Practices
* [15:52] Lucia Nightfire: oh also, would it be possible to have the landing points in the RC Tgire and BlueSteel testign sims turned off so we can test intra-sim teleporting with the functions, not to mention double click teleporting around liek we can in Magnum rc sims?
* [15:52] Kaine Lowenstark: I read animation streamlined
* [15:53] Gramma FiddlesticksGramma Fiddlesticks has not but now plans to spend some quiet reading time.
* [15:53] Oskar Linden: I'll try to remember to do that Lucia
* [15:53] Lucia Nightfire: tyvm, Oskar
* [15:53] Talia Malaspina: ditto
* [15:53] Oskar Linden: I hope that you can share that page with everyone who builds
* [15:53] Oskar Linden: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Good_Building_Practices
* [15:53] Kaine Lowenstark: and am planning to offer my sculpts with every one of the options , but everyone will take UUID flipping no matter what
* [15:53] Talia Malaspina: I hope Gramma will read to me. heehe
* [15:53] Oskar Linden: if you have updates or tweaks that would be good to
* [15:53] Kaine Lowenstark: Does a preloader on the evil UUID switching ease calls on the server?
* [15:53] Oskar Linden: we only have a couple of minutes left
* [15:55] Oskar Linden: we can bail out early
* [15:55] Oskar Linden: and you can all go get coffee
* [15:55] Kaine Lowenstark: Can we vote to change your friend old computer "toaster" that's what we call my brothers, I have grown quite attached to it
* [15:55] Oskar Linden: :-D
* [15:55] Oskar Linden: what?
* [15:56] Kaine Lowenstark: His old computer, we say he's playing SL on a toaster when he complains about lag
* [15:56] Kaine Lowenstark: Mesh objects that doesn't crash your friends old computer.
* [15:56] Oskar Linden: ahh
* [15:56] Kaine Lowenstark: Mesh objects that doesn't crash your friends old toaster
* [15:56] Kaine Lowenstark: :D
* [15:56] Oskar Linden: alright everyone
* [15:56] Oskar Linden: :-)
* [15:56] Oskar Linden: I'm gonna call the meeting
* [15:56] Oskar Linden: have a good weeekend
* [15:56] Oskar Linden: thanks for coming
* [15:56] Moundsa Mayo: Oskar, Maestro, thanks 1E9 for your time and hard work!
* [15:56] Gramma Fiddlesticks: thanks Oskar. =)
* [15:56] Rex Cronon: tc oskar
* [15:56] Kallista Destiny: Thanks Oskar
* [15:56] Gramma Fiddlesticks: thanks Maestro
* [15:57] Talia Malaspina: Thanks Maestro and Oskar
* [15:57] Kaine Lowenstark: apologise for keeping you 30 minutes passed topics that were relavent
* [15:57] Kaine Lowenstark: **apologies
* [15:57] Rex Cronon: tc everybody
* [15:57] Rex Cronon: have fun all
* [15:57] Talia Malaspina: HI Kaine!
* [15:58] Kaine Lowenstark: Talia !