User Experience Interest Group/Transcripts/2008-12-04

User Experience Interest Group Discussion for December 4, 2008. Malbers and Grant Linden attend. Open topic / chaos.
[15:02]	McCabe Maxsted: 	quick, steal jacek's spot!
[15:02]	Geneko Nemeth: 	There's no need for Chinese IME so I guess it would be safe to fullscreen this...
[15:02]	Squirrel Wood: 	...and collect them all together in your Lost and Found
[15:03]	Squirrel Wood: 	yay for stupid scripts
[15:03]	Charlette Proto: 	hi everyone
[15:03]	McCabe Maxsted: 	chinese doesn't display on full screen?
[15:03]	Morgaine Dinova: 	It's wierd, this rezzing business. All these places we've been to before, you'd think they'd pop up instantly without downloads other than a change check.
[15:04]	Jacek Antonelli waves to all 	Jacek Antonelli waves to all
[15:04]	StarSong Bright: 	nods, i find it is like this in my own plaza, where i rez in daily.., somehting is defiintely odd with caching lately
[15:04]	Morgaine Dinova: 	How goes Jacek?
[15:04]	Malbers Linden: 	Heya Jacek
[15:04]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe try opening your inventory
[15:04]	Morgaine Dinova: 	It's not just lately, Star. It's been like that for 4 years.
[15:04]	Grant Linden hopes Charlette does not step on his tail 	Grant Linden hopes Charlette does not step on his tail
[15:05]	Charlette Proto: 	I'll be carefull
[15:05]	Grant Linden: 	thank you
[15:05]	Squirrel Wood: 	cache? It just checks if somethings already cached, then begs the asset server to send it again :p
[15:05]	Charlette Proto: 	great rezz speed on the Hippo viewrer
[15:05]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Everyone's always said "the caching isn't working" ... but you'd think someone would confirm it.
[15:05]	Geneko Nemeth: 	... and the client crashes. Well done.
[15:06]	StarSong Bright: 	acutally i quit using the new mac rc, everhthign is blindingly white until the textures rez, i get snow blind, even in the place i just logged out of... how do i "confirm" that?
[15:06]	Squirrel Wood: 	the whole cache system needs to be completely redone and an api set up for it. Perchance use sqlite or something
[15:06]	Morgaine Dinova: 	LOL Star
[15:07]	McCabe Maxsted: 	isn't that part of an internal project now? It was mentioned at least on the JIRA as a raeson for rejecting cache patches
[15:07]	Grant Linden: 	hello Aimee
[15:07]	McCabe Maxsted: 	ahoy aimee :)
[15:07]	Aimee Trescothick: 	hey :)
[15:07]	Charlette Proto: 	I use a RAMdrive for cashe so it is fast and easy to wipe
[15:07]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Hi Aimee... squee!
[15:07]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hey Aimee :)
[15:07]	Aimee Trescothick: 	:D
[15:07]	Morgaine Dinova: 	McCabe --- if that's the case, then all this effort by 3rd parties on the viewer is being wasted.
[15:08]	Charlette Proto: 	3rd parties, what do you mean?
[15:08]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Community
[15:08]	Grant Linden wonders if we have and topic or agenda for this little get together 	Grant Linden wonders if we have and topic or agenda for this little get together
[15:08]	McCabe Maxsted shrugs. I wouldn't say that. LL's turnaround is pretty slow, but they can do things better than 3rd party viewers can, like testing on multiple platforms 	McCabe Maxsted shrugs. I wouldn't say that. LL's turnaround is pretty slow, but they can do things better than 3rd party viewers can, like testing on multiple platforms
[15:08]	Charlette Proto: 	yes we are having a virtual watercooler moment
[15:08]	Geneko Nemeth: 	There are a few thigns I want to ask the Lindens here.
[15:08]	Grant Linden: 	hehe
[15:08]	StarSong Bright: 	smiles
[15:09]	Mm Alder: 	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User_Experience_Interest_Group/Topics
[15:09]	McCabe Maxsted: 	by the time they get around to mostly finishing a feature, we'll prlolly have something better to add to it
[15:09]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Will Benjamin be dropping by today, do you guys know?
[15:09]	Geneko Nemeth: 	But before that maybe it's best to recap the last few discussions like the HUDs.
[15:09]	Charlette Proto: 	sure but Hippo has Torley Windlight optimisation as standard so it is much faster
[15:09]	Grant Linden: 	Ben was just at my desk and he seemed to be heading to this meeting
[15:09]	McCabe Maxsted: 	what's that, charlette?
[15:09]	Malbers Linden: 	Not sure if Benjamin is planning on stopping in or not. Or course, neither are Erica or Brent.
[15:09]	McCabe Maxsted: 	aw
[15:10]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Torley Windlight Optimization? I thought he don't write code...?
[15:10]	McCabe Maxsted has missed seeing them around 	McCabe Maxsted has missed seeing them around
[15:10]	Charlette Proto: 	I use the Hippo viewer (this week) because I want to see how it works in comparison
[15:10]	Mm Alder: 	Shall we get started?
[15:10]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Torley's optimization is to render only green and shocking pick ... saves processing a lot of data ;-)))
[15:10]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Aww, they don't even come on *official* hours
[15:10]	Charlette Proto: 	it appears to be much faster
[15:11]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hehe, let's get started. Mm, since you had some topics, why don't you start us off? Then Geneko, if you had some things to ask the Lindens?
[15:11]	Malbers Linden: 	Grant and I will try to represent
[15:11]	Charlette Proto: 	well my world gets better pick than enyone I know and better performance
[15:11]	Mm Alder: 	I think Morgaine was before me.
[15:11]	Charlette Proto: 	even have a pic of a sleeping Linden
[15:11]	Malbers Linden: 	i'm sleeping right now
[15:11]	StarSong Bright: 	we had some good things from the last meeting about building tools i thought
[15:12]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Alright then, Morgaine, anything?
[15:12]	McCabe Maxsted pokes malbers with a spoon 	McCabe Maxsted pokes malbers with a spoon
[15:12]	Charlette Proto: 	can you type sleeping hehe
[15:12]	Charlette Proto: 	I gusee two of the tenticals are awake
[15:12]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Not really. My fallback topic on the agenda is not one I want to discuss, even if it's true. I suggest we try to make positive headway.
[15:12]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Same for mine.
[15:13]	Charlette Proto: 	OK Morgaine?
[15:13]	Mm Alder: 	I thought yourw was in the high priority, Morgaine.
[15:13]	Geneko Nemeth: 	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Client-side_Scripting_for_HUDs_and_Widgets ?
[15:13]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Oh, I see
[15:14]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Righto. Well ,to summarize it, a whole raft of user experience issues would be improved by having client-side scripting
[15:14]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Come to think of it was it ever announced in SL-ux?
[15:14]	Charlette Proto: 	I'd love to see clientside scripting as i have said before
[15:14]	Mm Alder: 	I think you need to be more specific about "scripting"
[15:14]	Morgaine Dinova: 	And it's a topic that has come up a million times on the forums too, often under the guise of "plugins"
[15:14]	Mm Alder: 	UI scripting is far different from plugins
[15:15]	Charlette Proto: 	yes but not everyone distingushes that
[15:15]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Let's have Morgaine give us her summary, then you can add on to that, Mm
[15:15]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Essentially, it boilds down to factoring parts out, and making them optional and replaceable by others.
[15:15]	Charlette Proto: 	just look at the term user experience
[15:15]	Mm Alder: 	I believe LL is converting the UI to XML scripting. Yes? No?
[15:16]	Grant Linden: 	scripting language/API cahnges are out of my area of expertise
[15:16]	Geneko Nemeth: 	...Naa.
[15:16]	Morgaine Dinova: 	It covers a huge range of possible implementations and provides many different kinds of functionality, many of which are often discussed under "plugins", but the latter tend to be integrated into the viewer image
[15:16]	Charlette Proto: 	Lindens eat cookies for what I know
[15:16]	Malbers Linden: 	For converting the UI to XML.... that could be one way to describe the Skinning effort.
[15:16]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Shall I be more specific?
[15:16]	Charlette Proto: 	yes
[15:17]	Morgaine Dinova: 	kk
[15:17]	Mm Alder: 	Or "scripting" Malbers.
[15:17]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Well, this topic started with our discussion about HUDs.
[15:17]	Charlette Proto: 	we want UI event processing in screen widgets
[15:17]	Charlette Proto: 	precisely
[15:17]	Morgaine Dinova: 	And when thinking about HUDs, then we always also think about better client-side presentation and faster operation, plus a lot of CPU power --- client side has all of that, and server side has none of it.
[15:18]	Mm Alder: 	I think it would be fairly easy to build UI elements on the fly our of XML definitions
[15:18]	Charlette Proto: 	but what abpout events Mm
[15:18]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Plus, it's always a good thing if we can offload LSL processing to the client, because sims don't scale and client PCs do.
[15:19]	Mm Alder: 	Moregaine: One solution at a time :-)
[15:19]	Geneko Nemeth: 	And HUD are nice to offload because only one client can see them.
[15:19]	Charlette Proto: 	especially dynamic (interactive) UI elements of HUDs
[15:19]	Charlette Proto: 	yep
[15:19]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Events ... that's where the HUD objects come in. What we spent some time discussing was how client-side scripting could interface to the SL world, and the easy candidate for that is through HUD objects, just as now
[15:19]	Mm Alder: 	The elements already exist. They are assembled by processing XML at startup.
[15:19]	Charlette Proto: 	Mm did you read the HUD meetings transcripts???
[15:20]	Mm Alder: 	Charelette: I was there. :-)
[15:20]	Charlette Proto: 	Mm you are very confident about XML but we don't share this confidence
[15:20]	Geneko Nemeth: 	But events are handled by C++ code, which means only those widgets defined in C++ code can be interacted...
[15:20]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, let's hold on for a moment here.
[15:20]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Mm, the trouble is, those XML-side elements don't provide a direct route to the HUD objects
[15:20]	Mm Alder: 	That is true Geneko
[15:20]	Charlette Proto: 	sorry you don't seem to be consistent with what we discussed
[15:21]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Me?
[15:21]	Mm Alder: 	No, Morgaine, that is still though chat
[15:21]	Malbers Linden: 	Could we backtrack for a minute to the design problem we are trying to solve?
[15:21]	Mm Alder: 	It's just a matter of building callbacks that send chat.
[15:21]	Geneko Nemeth facepaws 	Geneko Nemeth facepaws
[15:22]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Indeed, Malbers. Hold your horses for a minute, everybody.
[15:22]	Charlette Proto: 	how can UI events and the inworld stuff be integrated through XML Mm?
[15:22]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Geneko: the operations that the widgets carry out can be the basis for that API that client-side scripts could be bound to. The only problem is the lack of a way to directly talk to the HUD objects. As Jacek says, we only have the chat method, which is pretty dire.
[15:22]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Give Jacek the floor
[15:22]	Charlette Proto: 	just that Mm never raised the capabilities of the XML in this context
[15:22]	Charlette Proto: 	I GIVE YOU JACEK
[15:23]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I guess the ideas I hold is somewhat different from the concensus.
[15:23]	Mm Alder: 	Charlett, I've worked on some of that code since the meeting.
[15:23]	Jacek Antonelli: 	The idea here, Malbers, is that HUDs today are very limited by the fact that they are just scripted objects, with all the limitations of both LSL and prims. There are no standard UI widgets available to use in HUDs, for example.
[15:23]	Charlette Proto: 	I'm listening
[15:23]	Mm Alder: 	Horses held.
[15:24]	Jacek Antonelli: 	So it would benefit the user exerience to have a more flexible system, based on the client,. for communicating between the script and user interface elements on the screen.
[15:24]	StarSong Bright: 	question.... wouldnt a move to beefier huds lend itself to misuse and mischeif? linden stealing, avatar tracking, who knows what... /me looks a bit nervous at the idea
[15:24]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Folks, we have Lindens here, so let's try to make use of them.
[15:25]	Charlette Proto: 	precisely like the Web2 scenario
[15:25]	Malbers Linden: 	more UI elements within the HUD or the general 2D UI provided by the Viewer?
[15:25]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Moving (parts) the HUD to the client.
[15:25]	Mm Alder: 	More UI capability for HUDs
[15:25]	Charlette Proto: 	especially the HUD event processing and user feedback elements
[15:25]	Jacek Antonelli: 	There are differing opinions about that, but one strong idea seems to be the ability for a script to tel lthe viewer to display a floater with the standard viewer UI elements.
[15:26]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Malbers: a direct way for the viewer to talk to the agent's attachments ... given that, the viewer can do miracles via its own scripting.
[15:26]	McCabe Maxsted nods at jacek 	McCabe Maxsted nods at jacek
[15:26]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Jacek++
[15:26]	Squirrel Wood: 	client side huds should not be able to process L$ or other money transactions at all
[15:26]	Charlette Proto: 	just look at the Edit Appearance for functionality required
[15:26]	Geneko Nemeth: 	But they can be paired with an in-world object for such functionality.
[15:26]	Jacek Antonelli: 	For example, if a script could tell the viewer, "Display a slider labelled 'Hair Size', and when the user changes that slider, tell the script so that it can perform the resizing operation"
[15:27]	StarSong Bright: 	ahh i have a side note i would like to pitch at our lindens on the topic of huds and appearance mode
[15:27]	StarSong Bright: 	On a UI note - regarding huds... I would like to see the addition of "hud" and "attachment" tabs to appearance mode. Showing the user what they have attached where and allowing them to "reset" these attached items. 
??? 
??? As in, you have a radar hud you want on the bottom right and when you wear it it has disappeared off the side of your screen, yeah yeah i know the workaround, but it would be way handy to have a "reset to the middle of my screen so i can adjust it" mechanism in there. Same for attachments, mainly hair. The help island seems to be teaching people well to go into appearance mode but you cant do diddly squat with hair attachments in the appearance mode. Or my fave, trying to get an earing out of your head or some other embedded attachment back OUTSIDE the body to adjust it. I can do it just fine but tyring to walk a noob through it, murder!
[15:27]	StarSong Bright: 	(hehe saved that in a note card for the right moment0
[15:27]	Malbers Linden: 	there is this general notion that things in the 3D world are a "shared experience" for all BUT that the 2D UI is just for the single user. Does this break that?
[15:27]	Geneko Nemeth: 	No.
[15:27]	Mm Alder: 	It's still a HUD
[15:27]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Hmm... unless you want to rez a HUD in-world...
[15:27]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Well, currently, HUDs are only viewed by the single user anyway
[15:28]	Malbers Linden: 	Cool. Just checking my assumptions
[15:28]	Geneko Nemeth: 	So that would be *my idea* of XUI on a prim...
[15:28]	Charlette Proto: 	yes but why would you have a HUD inworld
[15:28]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Vendors.
[15:28]	McCabe Maxsted: 	we have long needed some form of viewer communications
[15:29]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Malbers: given that the HUD once attached has a very particular relationship with its viewer, you'd think that it would have some more powerful of interacting with it too, rather than just through touch events and little else.
[15:29]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yes, there are plenty of other extensions of this idea. Displaying usable UI elements in 3D would be totally awesome. But it's also harder, and really a solution for another problem
[15:29]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Ohh-kay.
[15:30]	Mm Alder: 	Is chat so bad for object communication, McCabe?
[15:30]	Malbers Linden: 	So, the problem is that HUDs are underpowered. The new features that you'd like to enable are...?
[15:30]	Charlette Proto: 	chat suffers from lag in real world
[15:31]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Allow client-side scripts and having said scripts able to intercept all incoming messeages to the client, am I right?
[15:31]	Malbers Linden: 	that's a solution
[15:31]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek: I think your suggestion boils down to a special structured comms channel to the viewer. For example, if LSL had an operation that sent JSON to its viewer when it's attached (never if ressed in world), then much of the problem would disappear.
[15:31]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Malbers: Standard UI widgets, for one. It's infeasible to do something like a slider, or a color picker, using prims. Prims also give very poor feedback. You can't do tooltips, for example.
[15:31]	Geneko Nemeth: 	And also enabling scripts to use client-side widgets.
[15:32]	Malbers Linden: 	so, extend the GUI toolkit into HUDs?
[15:32]	Jacek Antonelli: 	That's the idea, Malbers
[15:32]	Morgaine Dinova: 	No. Just extend comms
[15:32]	Geneko Nemeth: 	That's one third of it.
[15:32]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Let the GUI be client side
[15:32]	Mm Alder: 	And have the callbacks communicate with in-world objects.
[15:32]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yep
[15:32]	Geneko Nemeth: 	That's two thrids.
[15:33]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Morgaine: I agree, if we take it up one level of abstraction, this issue is about communication between scripts and viewers in general. Not just for HUDs, but for all sorts of things.
[15:33]	Charlette Proto: 	OK we have the shorest desription yet - I think
[15:33]	Charlette Proto: 	again think Web2
[15:34]	Charlette Proto: 	indeed use JavaScript
[15:34]	Jacek Antonelli: 	That's largely a technical issue, though, so maybe not entirely appropriate for this meeting. Unless we can get Malbers and Grant to needle the techie Lindens for us ;)
[15:34]	Mm Alder: 	Gack! NOT Javascript!
[15:34]	Geneko Nemeth: 	JavaScript as a client side scripting solution, yes.
[15:34]	Mm Alder: 	Javascript is way more than you need for a HUD.
[15:35]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek: you're dead right, comms with all objects need improving. But I'm trying to solve just a small piece of the problem by making this comms specific to viewer<->attachment
[15:35]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Or it could be LSL2 or Lua. That's the third third of the proposal.
[15:35]	Charlette Proto: 	Mm that is your personal opinion, I think JavaScript is great
[15:35]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Let's not get into language wars, please.
[15:35]	Mm Alder: 	The UI already handles XML, so why not stick with that?
[15:35]	McCabe Maxsted: 	language is really a whole nother topic entirely
[15:35]	Geneko Nemeth: 	XUI is not a programming language.
[15:35]	Morgaine Dinova: 	No no no no .... please don't advocate languages folks. Just create the API, and let any language use it.
[15:35]	Charlette Proto: 	sure I'm for JavaScript and kill LSL wherever possible
[15:36]	StarSong Bright nods not javascrpt ewwwww 	StarSong Bright nods not javascrpt ewwwww
[15:36]	Geneko Nemeth: 	FWIW, Gecko based apps uses XUL(note, not XUI) and JS for UI.
[15:36]	Jacek Antonelli: 	*ahem*
[15:36]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Language wars are bad, counterproductive, and don't harness the community, which uses umpteen languages.
[15:36]	StarSong Bright: 	I have a linden question - isnt there SOME way to make it so you can pick up a glass from a bar wtihotu having to own it?
[15:36]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Anyway whatever language client side scripting needs that.
[15:37]	StarSong Bright: 	it relates to the huds acutally... it got me thinking of it
[15:37]	Charlette Proto: 	Star is that on the subject???
[15:37]	StarSong Bright: 	yes, i was wondering if you could make a hud that would allow you to interact with objects, ie hold htem, without taking ownership
[15:37]	StarSong Bright: 	its somethign that many noobs i know hwave a real problem with, you hand them a drink and they are like "i gotta do what ? wear it? you want me to spill it on myself lol?"
[15:37]	Charlette Proto: 	the object would have to give you the HUD I think
[15:38]	StarSong Bright: 	its such a basic rl thing.. and.. in sl its impossible
[15:38]	Charlette Proto: 	lats get back to language wars please
[15:38]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Hahahaha....
[15:38]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Star: yes, the set of object events is pretty miserable
[15:38]	Charlette Proto: 	this is SL not RL
[15:38]	Morgaine Dinova: 	But I'm trying to solve an easier problem :-)
[15:39]	McCabe Maxsted wonders if anyone here has tried the restrained life viewer. It's forced to implement its features by using special characters in llownersay objects that appear to be gibberish in the LL viewer. Just one existing example of people needing this feature that we don't currently have	McCabe Maxsted wonders if anyone here has tried the restrained life viewer. It's forced to implement its features by using special characters in llownersay objects that appear to be gibberish in the LL viewer. Just one existing example of people needing this feature that we don't currently have
[15:39]	Mm Alder: 	OK, another topic for the Lindens: What is Howard Linden going to do?
[15:39]	Geneko Nemeth: 	So... are we finished presenting HUDs yet?
[15:39]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Attachment<->viewer comms lacks many of the problematic corner cases of more general objects comms, so I'm hoping it would be designed more easily.
[15:39]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, let's set aside HUDs for a while, we've got other things to cover. I think Malbers and Grant have got the idea, that there needs to be a way for scripts to hook into the GUI widgets.
[15:39]	Mm Alder: 	Howard?
[15:39]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Check out http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Client-side_Scripting_for_HUDs_and_Widgets for a summary of HUD discussion.
[15:39]	Morgaine Dinova: 	kk. Next topic
[15:39]	Grant Linden: 	Howard just started and is meeting his new organization this week
[15:40]	Malbers Linden: 	http://lindenlab.com/pressroom/releases/12_02_08
[15:40]	Aimee Trescothick predicts the next new Linden recruited will have the surname "Feel" 	Aimee Trescothick predicts the next new Linden recruited will have the surname "Feel"
[15:40]	Charlette Proto: 	I have restrained life in my viewer now but never used it (don't do BDSM)
[15:40]	Grant Linden: 	Howard just walked by Malbers and I in RL
[15:40]	Aimee Trescothick: 	then they will have a new "Look and Feel"
[15:40]	McCabe Maxsted: 	will he be coming to office hours?
[15:40]	Mm Alder: 	Sounds like yet another "fix the resident experience" effort on top of those already going on.
[15:40]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Charlette: is it a stable viewer?
[15:40]	Aimee Trescothick: 	"D
[15:40]	Malbers Linden: 	that's true. he just walked past
[15:40]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Too bad he needs to come to Beaumont.
[15:41]	Grant Linden: 	I can ask him if he would like to come to office hours
[15:41]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Or at least peek over your shoulders.
[15:41]	Malbers Linden: 	Howard is an SVP in Engineering
[15:41]	Mm Alder: 	Please invite him.
[15:41]	Geneko Nemeth: 	An "please"?
[15:41]	Morgaine Dinova: 	S'il Vou Plait :-)
[15:41]	Charlette Proto: 	SVP?
[15:41]	Geneko Nemeth have no idea what that means... 	Geneko Nemeth have no idea what that means...
[15:42]	Grant Linden: 	logging a Jira against myself to invite Howard to office hours
[15:42]	Morgaine Dinova: 	lol
[15:42]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I'm guessing then that Howard won't be working directly on the UI (being SVP). Does UI / user experience fall under his "domain", though?
[15:42]	Charlette Proto: 	what is SVP?
[15:42]	Jacek Antonelli: 	SVP = Senior Vice President
[15:42]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe sorry
[15:43]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Next topic?
[15:43]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Hmm... can I ask?
[15:43]	Mm Alder: 	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-10293
[15:43]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Aww too slow. XD
[15:43]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehe
[15:44]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Geneko will be after Mm finishes this bit
[15:44]	Charlette Proto: 	I can't see Howard comming here, perhaps the LL boardroom
[15:44]	Mm Alder: 	I just wanted to point out that over many years many residents have made many suggestions for improving the newbie experience. I hope all of these new efforts don't ignore them.
[15:44]	Geneko Nemeth: 	(Damn what do I do what do I do how can I get the assignment done before tomorrow midnight)
[15:44]	StarSong Bright: 	i have a question for the lindens based on our last meeting where we discussed building tools. i would like to know if there is some technial reason taht we dont have a "snap prim to prim" tool for aligning things on an axis
[15:45]	Charlette Proto: 	give me an extension and I'll give you the worl Geneko
[15:45]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Well said, Mm. There indeed have been a lot of good suggestions over the years on improving the new user experience. Thanks for that link
[15:45]	Malbers Linden: 	it's definitley not a matter of ignoring ideas.
[15:45]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Real cat...err fennecs don't ask for extensions.
[15:45]	Charlette Proto: 	wow the Linden hour seems like a mess
[15:45]	Malbers Linden: 	Hell, my great idesa get ignored every day
[15:45]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehe
[15:45]	Geneko Nemeth: 	It is and that's one of the low priority topics I want to ask.
[15:45]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hehe
[15:46]	Charlette Proto: 	what is your point Mm (Star wait)
[15:46]	Geneko Nemeth: 	We are like trying to cramm all that much topics into one hour.
[15:46]	Mm Alder: 	I was hoping Big Spaceship might consider them.
[15:46]	Charlette Proto: 	this is not working
[15:46]	Malbers Linden: 	it's always a mattter of prioritizing ideas based on the people and talent and goals we have
[15:46]	Charlette Proto: 	what can they do Mm?
[15:46]	Malbers Linden: 	I'd think that Big Spaceship has been told
[15:46]	Mm Alder: 	Great.
[15:46]	Malbers Linden: 	of course, we gave them a lot to read and days worth of brainsdumps
[15:47]	McCabe Maxsted has noticed from recent JIRA comments that UI improvements have become pretty low *sad face* 	McCabe Maxsted has noticed from recent JIRA comments that UI improvements have become pretty low *sad face*
[15:47]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Nyahahha...
[15:47]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay. Geneko, the floor is yours.
[15:47]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Nothing beats experiencing it first-hand and I encourage them to get in-world.
[15:47]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Okay, I'm mostly just polling Lindens for status reports.
[15:48]	Charlette Proto: 	yes i see LL get in bed with total noobs all the time - that stinks
[15:48]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Like what is the UX team doing recently? What about the existing projects like Landmark and stuff?
[15:48]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Malbers: prioritizing 10,000 great suggestion down to a few dozen will never work, it throws the majority in the bin, you must see that. The only answer is to harness the power of the community.
[15:48]	Charlette Proto: 	DNA my ass, Big Spaceship how naff
[15:48]	Jacek Antonelli: 	lol Charlette, let's be civil ;)
[15:49]	Charlette Proto: 	sorry
[15:49]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Charlett: never put the words "ass" and "big" next to each other, even in that order ;-)
[15:49]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe
[15:49]	McCabe Maxsted: 	from what I understand, big spaceship is still very very preliminary, yeah?
[15:49]	Malbers Linden: 	Morgaine: I do agree that we could be better at figuring out what features/projects/ideas we encourage the community to tackle
[15:49]	Malbers Linden: 	LL can't do it all
[15:50]	Geneko Nemeth: 	That's... curiously silend here.
[15:50]	Jacek Antonelli: 	That's a good point, Geneko. What do you guys think, would it be useful to have (part of) these monthly meetings be little update reports from the Lindens?
[15:50]	Geneko Nemeth: 	And what the community wants to tackle often get conflicted.
[15:50]	Charlette Proto: 	emply more Lindens instead of outsourcing
[15:50]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Monthly? I'd say do it more often.
[15:50]	Aimee Trescothick: 	(gotta run, bye!)
[15:50]	Aimee Trescothick waves 	Aimee Trescothick waves
[15:50]	Squirrel Wood: 	Rob does it on the open source meeting so yes. updates are always cool
[15:50]	Jacek Antonelli: 	(Bye, Aimee!)
[15:50]	Malbers Linden: 	by amee
[15:50]	Charlette Proto: 	bye Aime
[15:50]	McCabe Maxsted: 	bye aimee
[15:51]	Grant Linden: 	I am not sure how much I can update, personally. Many of my projects are not "public" knowledge just yet. Once they are I can talk about them.
[15:51]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I think a monthly hour is a waste of time frankly. It's over before it's started, and really it's just "feelgood".
[15:51]	Geneko Nemeth: 	This would also make the community easier to collaborate (say not working on something is already worked on) and such.
[15:51]	Malbers Linden: 	Charlette: hiring full heads vs. outsourcing is always a tough business decision. we're feeling our way just like very business.
[15:51]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Yeah, but I'm asking about the public bits that leaked for now.
[15:51]	Charlette Proto: 	Morgaine is right we lost this week to recaps
[15:52]	Geneko Nemeth: 	It will be like that every month, liek this trust me.
[15:52]	McCabe Maxsted: 	malbers: I wouldn't mind submitting patches the pjira again if you wanted to say, give specific tasks that are guaranteed to be implemented (and maybe pay me for 'em :D)
[15:52]	Geneko Nemeth: 	That's why I said bi-monthly.
[15:52]	Mm Alder: 	Haven't heard much about Navigation lately. or is it Landmarks?
[15:52]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Landmarks/Navigation and notification redesign.
[15:52]	Charlette Proto: 	Malbers I know what happens to companies that outsource, loose control of cost and die
[15:52]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I believe notification is already checked in and waiting for 1.23?
[15:53]	Malbers Linden: 	A lot of the plumbing for Notifications is in some branch
[15:53]	Grant Linden: 	I know we have discussed working in the Landmarks efforts into the new BIg Spaceship designs - but I ahve not seen any designs yet
[15:53]	Mm Alder: 	What doe it do new?
[15:53]	McCabe Maxsted: 	the'res a branch on the svn IIRC
[15:53]	Malbers Linden doesn't keep close tabs on release numbers 	Malbers Linden doesn't keep close tabs on release numbers
[15:53]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Aww, it's not seeing to the trunk soon?
[15:53]	McCabe Maxsted: 	you should IM kippie
[15:53]	McCabe Maxsted: 	she'd know
[15:54]	Malbers Linden: 	I do know that all the Landmarks/Navigation/Notifications work has been shown to Big Spaceship for their design work
[15:54]	Squirrel Wood gives Malbers a hug for its Hug-A-Malbers day 	Squirrel Wood gives Malbers a hug for its Hug-A-Malbers day
[15:54]	Mm Alder: 	Is this going to be another one of those "Communication windows" or "Dazzle" kind of things?
[15:54]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Also having so many projects under closed doors may not be a good thing for getting the community to participate.
[15:54]	Malbers Linden: 	so, some stuff may not see a full Viewer release in forms that all of you have seen it
[15:54]	Malbers Linden: 	but the ideas move forward in other projects
[15:54]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Who am I to say though. I can't code C++ to save my life.
[15:55]	Geneko Nemeth: 	D'aww and I'm so looking forward to notification redesign.
[15:55]	Malbers Linden: 	on the positive side, the new Notifications plumbing is supposed to make messaging much more reliable
[15:55]	Squirrel Wood wants to be able to upload notecards :p 	Squirrel Wood wants to be able to upload notecards :p
[15:55]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Huh. Well, it seems strange to have Vectorform get everything set up enough to talk about a possible First Look for landmarks/navigation, and then hand it off to Big Spaceship for inspiration. *scratches her head*
[15:55]	Geneko Nemeth: 	... guess that's why the professor allowed us to take a textbook into the C++ exam (which I don't have any)
[15:55]	McCabe Maxsted: 	yeah
[15:56]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Set it up already.
[15:56]	McCabe Maxsted: 	that, err
[15:56]	McCabe Maxsted: 	sounds kinda dickish?
[15:56]	Charlette Proto: 	I have a great C++ text
[15:56]	Jacek Antonelli smirks 	Jacek Antonelli smirks
[15:56]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Next topic?
[15:56]	Charlette Proto: 	Big Spaceship = Big Brother???
[15:57]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I think we're out of both topics and time
[15:57]	Charlette Proto: 	I still don't understand their role
[15:57]	Malbers Linden: 	it is important to remember that Big Spaceship is focussing mostly on new resident experience
[15:57]	Grant Linden: 	Big Spaceship are nice folks working very hard for Second Life
[15:57]	Geneko Nemeth: 	the UI is planned to be completely revamped? How does that work with forks like Imprudence.
[15:57]	Malbers Linden: 	that doesn't apply to any of you really
[15:57]	StarSong Bright: 	i have to say i havent seen much on the big spaceship folks but their website did not impress me... hope they are better with software than www
[15:57]	McCabe Maxsted nods. I'm sure, grant 	McCabe Maxsted nods. I'm sure, grant
[15:57]	McCabe Maxsted: 	I really hope we get to meet and talk with them in the coming months too; really curious how they're taking SL™
[15:57]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Err... I'd say if it makes Second Life easier to learn / use it concerns all of us.
[15:57]	Charlette Proto: 	well I feel we are out of the loop now
[15:58]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Charlette++
[15:58]	StarSong Bright: 	theres a loop? /me looks around
[15:58]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hehe
[15:58]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Hula! Hula!
[15:58]	Charlette Proto: 	I love recursive functions
[15:58]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, let's call it a day, and release the Lindens from the interrogation room. Thanks for coming, guys *grins*
[15:58]	Mm Alder: 	How about a JIRA to invite Big Spaceship here?
[15:59]	StarSong Bright: 	wait wait please
[15:59]	StarSong Bright: 	i had a couple questions taht got passed over
[15:59]	Charlette Proto: 	could we get some updates on the Big Spaceship ideas at least
[15:59]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Actually, we came to exactly the same conclusion at Zero's OH too (no Lindens present again), but in reverse. Opensim was forging ahead at a rate of knots, and LL was in danger of becoming out of the loop.
[15:59]	Grant Linden: 	about prim snapping?
[15:59]	StarSong Bright: 	yes
[15:59]	Grant Linden: 	let me research that one for you
[15:59]	StarSong Bright: 	its such a no brainer
[15:59]	Grant Linden: 	I have seen the topic discussed
[15:59]	StarSong Bright: 	you have no idea how impossible ti can be to build without that
[16:00]	Charlette Proto: 	OpenSimGrid had 39 users on it last time I logged on
[16:00]	Morgaine Dinova: 	http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Hypergrid
[16:00]	Grant Linden: 	let me see if I can find a dev that can speak to that
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Thanks, Grant
[16:00]	Grant Linden: 	(the snapping question)
[16:00]	StarSong Bright: 	and also, is it possible to add tabs in appearacne for huds and attachments? or is there some technical issue that would make that hard?
[16:00]	Morgaine Dinova: 	With developments like Hypergrid coming out, it makes you wonder how the LL-supplied viewer can keep up
[16:01]	McCabe Maxsted: 	it would be easy to make a list... don't know how useful you'd find that though
[16:01]	Charlette Proto: 	the Hippo viewer seems so much snappier and it beats me how they got it to be so
[16:01]	Mm Alder: 	No load on the sim Charlette.
[16:01]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I'll give it a try Charlette
[16:02]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, we're at the end of the hour. Let's give our thanks to Malbers and Grant for coming today. If anyone wants to stay after and chat, you're of course welcome to do that
[16:02]	Charlette Proto: 	I'm using it now Mm
[16:02]	Charlette Proto: 	I mean doing SL
[16:02]	Geneko Nemeth: 	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-10294 for adding a new attachment interface to SL.
[16:02]	Grant Linden: 	thank you for your questions
[16:02]	Mm Alder: 	Thanks Grant and Malbers!
[16:02]	Grant Linden waves good bye 	Grant Linden waves good bye
[16:02]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Thanks Lindens, hope the problems get sorted out.
[16:02]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Thanks for answering them too!
[16:02]	Charlette Proto: 	if you are looking for me in OSGrid I'm Charlette Proto
[16:03]	Geneko Nemeth is going to get on to an alt gird as soon as he learns how to build a furry av :3 	Geneko Nemeth is going to get on to an alt gird as soon as he learns how to build a furry av :3
[16:03]	Charlette Proto: 	hey that was a very Linden hour
[16:03]	Charlette Proto: 	yes we need avies and clothes on OSGrid
[16:03]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Still mostly recaps though and we can expect the furture ones like that too.
[16:04]	Geneko Nemeth knows more C++ than building in SL and that's saying something 	Geneko Nemeth knows more C++ than building in SL and that's saying something
[16:04]	Charlette Proto: 	waste of time they should read transcripts instead
[16:04]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I'll see what I can do to keep things more orderly and focused for next time
[16:04]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Transcripts aren't summarized.
[16:04]	Mm Alder: 	How do you converse with a transcript?
[16:04]	Chaley May: 	i thought second life would end up selling sim names like the new .com but it may be opensim that ends up being able to do that
[16:04]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek, it's not your fault, it's inevitable
[16:04]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Meh, it's the nicknames.
[16:04]	Chaley May: 	nakes will become important eventually
[16:04]	StarSong Bright: 	i have a suggestion
[16:04]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I mean we have Adam Reuters...
[16:04]	Chaley May: 	names
[16:04]	StarSong Bright: 	perhaps we should precompile a list of demands
[16:05]	StarSong Bright: 	er i mean questions.... before the meeting
[16:05]	Jacek Antonelli grins 	Jacek Antonelli grins
[16:05]	StarSong Bright: 	and pass them to the relevent lindens, so that they can come prepared to address them
[16:05]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yes, that's what I was thinking, Star
[16:05]	Geneko Nemeth: 	And announce the topic earlier.
[16:05]	Mm Alder: 	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User_Experience_Interest_Group/Topics
[16:05]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Like this topic is announced on this morning. That's not enough time for anyone!
[16:05]	Charlette Proto: 	Lindens should have questions about what they like and what they can't get from the transcripts
[16:05]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I wasn't quite sure whether Grant would be handling this one or not, Geneko :\
[16:06]	Charlette Proto: 	OK we need to polish up the routine but this meeting was hopeless
[16:06]	Mm Alder: 	I didn't want to add topics before I was sure I could make the meeting.
[16:07]	StarSong Bright: 	well here is a question, what do we really want from the lindens in these meetings?
[16:07]	StarSong Bright: 	i mean, they are going to go by jira in the end no matter what we hash around here
[16:07]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Words, would be nice.
[16:07]	Charlette Proto: 	tell us about the XUI/XML magic Mm if you like
[16:07]	Mm Alder: 	Anyone else interested? Look here
[16:07]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I g2g but I can listen before going.
[16:07]	Charlette Proto: 	absolutely we never found a way in really
[16:08]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Star's made a good point.
[16:08]	StarSong Bright: 	one thing i have tried to do is get explanations about WHY things in the jira are not happening
[16:08]	Charlette Proto: 	which point?
[16:08]	StarSong Bright: 	liek the snap to for builders and thigns....
[16:08]	Charlette Proto: 	yes that has always been true
[16:08]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Also, by bringing the meetings down to 1 per month, it's pretty much turned it into just a PR exercise.
[16:09]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I agree.
[16:09]	Charlette Proto: 	I think so too Morgaine
[16:09]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Plus it is always put after an announcement on the UX front on the official blog.
[16:09]	StarSong Bright: 	i mean, if there is some massive macupicu sized coding mountain and it jsut isnt possible in a reasonable timeline, then there really isnt much point in discussing it fruther
[16:10]	Mm Alder: 	coding mountain?
[16:10]	StarSong Bright: 	then again, knowing what the mountains are, perhaps one of the impudents can find a way to make it a molehill, we dont know unless the underlying issues are understood
[16:11]	Mm Alder: 	The code isn't bad if you spend a little time with it.
[16:11]	StarSong Bright: 	a coding mountain in, not worth the effort to move it aside, time to go around it .. skip it
[16:11]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Well there are rumours, yeah, new CEOs and code mountains seem to be related.
[16:11]	Mm Alder: 	Going around the viewer would be very hard. There's a LOT of functionality in there.
[16:11]	Charlette Proto: 	yep they are in my experience Star
[16:12]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Even the Official Blog (I think it's Kate) says it's more than four applications at once.
[16:12]	StarSong Bright: 	so we need to grab malbers by his wily tenticles and make him tell us where the blockages are on our pet peeve jiras
[16:12]	StarSong Bright: 	smiles and gives malbers a wink
[16:12]	Malbers Linden: 	oooooo, that's my signal to run away
[16:12]	Geneko Nemeth: 	His lips are sealed though.
[16:12]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehehe
[16:13]	StarSong Bright: 	noooooo, i was kidding about the grabbing
[16:13]	StarSong Bright: 	we will just all stare at you now, grins
[16:13]	Morgaine Dinova: 	But why even bother working on the viewer? Having open-sourced it, why not just let the community do all the work .... just talk to them for any new interfaces.
[16:13]	Charlette Proto: 	are we going for a food fight
[16:14]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jellyfish take siestas at this hour :P
[16:14]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe
[16:14]	Malbers Linden: 	I better run in a moment
[16:14]	Malbers Linden takes siestas whenever he can 	Malbers Linden takes siestas whenever he can
[16:14]	Charlette Proto: 	swim?
[16:14]	Mm Alder: 	Jellyfish can run?
[16:14]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hehe
[16:14]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Take care, Malbers. Thanks for coming! *hugs a Malbers*
[16:14]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Glide, more like.
[16:14]	Charlette Proto: 	byeee malbers
[16:15]	Charlette Proto: 	NOOB alert
[16:15]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Can't be fun, so yeah, hug freely :-)))
[16:15]	StarSong Bright would offer to hug but um, might not be able to resist the impulse to grab heheheh 	StarSong Bright would offer to hug but um, might not be able to resist the impulse to grab heheheh
[16:15]	StarSong Bright: 	waves from over here
[16:15]	Malbers Linden: 	I know it's frustrating to fire JIRA off and see no movement for months or years
[16:15]	Charlette Proto: 	StickyZ can we help uou?
[16:15]	Malbers Linden: 	we get to them as they become business critical
[16:15]	Charlette Proto: 	just don't bump please
[16:15]	StarSong Bright: 	thats why it would be so helpful malbers if you guys could address the jiras
[16:15]	Geneko Nemeth: 	For some reasons we always have new residents coming here...?
[16:16]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe that is sooo funny
[16:16]	StarSong Bright: 	and let us have some part of the loop about how priorities are being set
[16:16]	Malbers Linden: 	i'm sure you don't want to hear words like "business critical"
[16:16]	Mm Alder: 	Some more visibility on the internal JIRA progress would be nice. :-)
[16:16]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe you are dreaming Star
[16:16]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Aww, he flew away~
[16:16]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Malbers: loosing touch with the forefront of community development is very business-critical. You let the tiger loose when you open sourced ... not running is not an option, really.
[16:16]	Charlette Proto: 	noobs have a greater emphases that designers at LL
[16:16]	StarSong Bright: 	yeah well i do live with my head in the stars most of the time
[16:16]	Malbers Linden: 	and, yes, we need to work at figuring out how to signal the community about where we can use your help without giving away any secret business things we can't tell you about
[16:17]	StarSong Bright: 	well that is why we should begin with our lists of demands
[16:17]	StarSong Bright: 	then you can run it past pr before you come, smiles
[16:17]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Why you can't tell us about any secret business meetings at the first place.
[16:17]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Like the noob concentration camps
[16:17]	Charlette Proto: 	we will not tell the press hehe
[16:17]	Charlette Proto: 	Big Spaceship hehe
[16:18]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Best way to improve the new user experience... is to breed a new generation of super-noobs!
[16:18]	Charlette Proto: 	hovvering above us
[16:18]	Charlette Proto: 	yes get noobs to design their own experience
[16:18]	Jacek Antonelli: 	But then the experiment goes horribly wrong, and a monster newb destroys the lab
[16:18]	StarSong Bright: 	make the start islands mor eintersting, the ones i have seen are a big yawn
[16:18]	McCabe Maxsted: 	You have just teleported to 'Toxic Waste'
[16:18]	Charlette Proto: 	a giant noob perhaps
[16:18]	Malbers Linden: 	theres a good machinima in there somewhere
[16:18]	Jacek Antonelli grins 	Jacek Antonelli grins
[16:18]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Well it's easy, hehe. The client's open and can't be a secret, the server is closed and is a secret. So leave the client to the community to develop, with mere liaising from Lindens who need new interfaces. Then you have more manpower for working server-side, and the community is happier, and you have free labour :-)