Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2012.09.28

Simulator_User_Group
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== List of Speakers ==
Baker Linden 	Boyd Doghouse 	Jane1 Bookmite
Kennylex Luckless	Lares Carter 	Lucia Nightfire
MartinRJ 	Nalates Urriah 	Rex Cronon
Siana Gearz 	Simon Linden 	Tankmaster Finesmith
Theadee 	Theresa Tennyson	Thriller Dancer
Toysoldier Thor 	Visitor Detector	
== Transcript ==
[16:01] Toysoldier Thor: ok simon what is that board representing
[16:01] Rex Cronon: hi simon
[16:01] Toysoldier Thor: what is a dilation graph
[16:01] Simon Linden: The big white board? It's a lag meeter ... the red dots are instanaeous fps, the blue ones a rolling average
[16:02] Kennylex Luckless: Blue dots are lindens and pink moles, and it is a coolnes rating system.
[16:02] Simon Linden: Andrew can't make it today, and Kelly is out on vacation, so you're stuck with me
[16:02] Visitor Detector: Returning visitor to your land: Lares Carter
[16:02] Simon Linden: OK, so for news .... there won't be a rollout on Tuesday morning because we don't have any thing in the RC channels, but I do believe there will be some restarts
[16:03] Visitor Detector: First time visitor to your land: TheaDee Resident
[16:03] Toysoldier Thor: hi baker
[16:03] Simon Linden: Some of the regions are going to be "rebalanced" ... we move them around to different servers based on usage patterns. This isn't the first time we've done it, but when we did it the very first time, we saw a real nice improvement in performance
[16:04] Baker Linden: Hello Thor, everyone
[16:04] Rex Cronon: hi baker
[16:04] Kennylex Luckless: Hia
[16:04] Simon Linden: It's about time for another round, and without the upgrade, it's a good chance
[16:05] Simon Linden: On Wednesday there will be 3 new server versions in the RC channels
[16:06] Simon Linden: One isn't much to talk about ... a minor change that's needed before we can bring out some other code
[16:07] Simon Linden: Another is some back-end process changes that will make performance better on new hardware
[16:07] Simon Linden: The third is a maintenance update, which has the big-group support Baker has been working on
[16:07] Simon Linden: So that will hopefully make it to the grid
[16:09] Simon Linden: Andrew said he didn't have any news for today, but has been working on the interest list code which still has some work to be done. He messed up the wind on some regions and has to fix that
[16:09] Baker Linden: So last week I was asked what I'd like to work on now that large group management is done (by that I mean it's in testing). I responded with some projects I'd like to be a part of, and so now I'm investigating why teleports occasionally timeout. For clarification, that was not one of the things I wanted to work on :P But it'll be interesting looking into the teleport system
[16:09] Baker Linden: and crying
[16:10] Rex Cronon: why cry?
[16:10] Simon Linden: We're trying to support Baker in his journey down into the TP system
[16:10] Lucia Nightfire: hold hads whilst descending into hell
[16:10] Lucia Nightfire: *hands
[16:10] Simon Linden: Right, like that!
[16:10] Baker Linden: You haven't seen the TP system, Rex
[16:10] Theresa Tennyson: "Occasionally" time out? That's like saying my KittyCat "occasionally" sleeps.
[16:10] Baker Linden: I kid :P
[16:11] Baker Linden: therein lies the problem, Theresa
[16:11] Simon Linden: The TP system is a bit scary --- the dialog between the first region, the viewer, the second region, and several back-end systems is a bit complicated
[16:11] Boyd Doghouse: some sims are virtually impossible to TP out of
[16:11] Baker Linden: though I did manage to reliably get a teleport timeout in one region today, so I have a couple megs worth of logs
[16:11] Rex Cronon: u could write a memo that u need at least 1 years to add comments to the parts that perform the tp:)
[16:11] Siana Gearz: hellows.
[16:12] Jane1 Bookmite: Baker come to my sim, if you need data. I don't event try to TP out.
[16:12] Toysoldier Thor: OK lindens.... I posted a thread in the forums to report a disturbing event that seems to be happening frequently on sims with a large population of avatars on it.... All the details are in the forum. I have other venue owners that have seen the same thing - since Pathfinder was released.
[16:12] Toysoldier Thor: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Major-Increase-in-Instant-SIM-LAG-amp-Crash-during-large-events/m-p/1684143#M7647
[16:12] Rex Cronon: get a bloackboard adn start drawing diagrams:)
[16:12] Siana Gearz: wheee Simon is extra cute today ?
[16:12] Simon Linden: yeah, Dublin is pretty good for that ... you can end up in the basement if you try to TP out and it fails
[16:13] Jane1 Bookmite: yup
[16:13] Rex Cronon: blackboard*
[16:13] Simon Linden: Why thank you, Siana :)
[16:13] Theadee: there are many sims like that
[16:13] Boyd Doghouse: arapaima too
[16:13] Boyd Doghouse: you try to teleport out
[16:13] Simon Linden: That's actually a side bug for the TP system -- apparently it lets you fall a bit when it fails, so if you're on a floor, you can end up under it
[16:13] Boyd Doghouse: and you end up stuck under the thing
[16:13] Boyd Doghouse: with no way out
[16:14] Theresa Tennyson: You either fall or start hovering.
[16:14] Theadee: there are times I have to log out because I get stuck in, on or under sims
[16:14] Toysoldier Thor: the sim instantly LAGS right up and most avatars get booted out of SL.... and it seems to happend when there is a major crowd and freaky enough when the artists are switching streams
[16:14] Simon Linden: We're trying to focus on that basic failure to leave for now
[16:14] Lucia Nightfire: Toy, you might want to file a jira on it
[16:15] Boyd Doghouse: I've noticed that sims which fall under certian types of crashing attacks are the most difficult to TP out of
[16:15] Toysoldier Thor: with a jira it will be thought of as just an isolated sim issue...
[16:15] Toysoldier Thor: i have seen it happen many times on many sims this week
[16:15] Toysoldier Thor: Thea here has had to deal with it 2 weeks ago
[16:15] Simon Linden: Toysolder - I'll look at the logs for that region and see if there's anything interesting in them
[16:15] Theadee: what do you mean by certain types of crashing attacks, Boyd?
[16:15] Boyd Doghouse: like hyannisport or moose beach
[16:15] Rex Cronon: if sim is damage enabled is less harder to tp out. u can kill yourself:)
[16:16] Theadee: there are many regions that I have experienced similar issues, Simon.
[16:16] Boyd Doghouse: there are groups that hang out at both sims that crash the sim three or four times a day
[16:16] Toysoldier Thor: I gave the details of the two sims and two dates times....
[16:16] Boyd Doghouse: you literally cannot teleport out of th em
[16:16] Toysoldier Thor: one estate owner was told by LL that it was a "STALE SERVER" what ever that means
[16:16] Theadee: I understand what you mean now, Boyd ?
[16:17] Simon Linden: We know there are some things that can push the regions into a half-dead state, where you can't enter or leave. I've been working on those on and off for a few months -- it's because some messaging system gets overloaded and doesn't recover. There are a few ways to make it happen
[16:17] Toysoldier Thor: I just wanted to get across that it was not an isolated event - as i saw it happen 3 times on 3 sims this week since tuesday and all were on crowded sims that were ok until boom the lag hit
[16:18] Toysoldier Thor: ohhh? weill that sounds familiar then simon
[16:18] Toysoldier Thor: hate to fear monger but seems to have got real bad lately
[16:19] Rex Cronon: toysoldier. do those sims allow rezing?
[16:19] Toysoldier Thor: i cannot recall - i do not think Sheries does - they get grief attacks often so they have put a ton of protection in place
[16:20] Theresa Tennyson: There are also a number of sims that have been bogging down with unusual-looking script activity.
[16:20] Simon Linden: We haven't had restarts in a couple of weeks - things tend to get worse over time, so that may be a factor
[16:21] Toysoldier Thor: could it be a memory leak from new code - like pathfinder? just asking
[16:21] Theadee: I run a venue that has been made very secure and we experienced the same issues two weeks ago that Toy is describing. We have no reason to think that we were griefed at all
[16:21] Toysoldier Thor: what is weird is how it hit so fast - it was instant and all server lag
[16:21] Simon Linden: Could be -- when you say it's getting worse, how recently is that? The past week? or earlier?
[16:22] Toysoldier Thor: i saw these events 3 times since tuesday
[16:22] Theadee: I have been having issues of varying degrees for about three weeks on two different sims.
[16:22] Toysoldier Thor: tuesday night it happened twice - on two sims
[16:22] Toysoldier Thor: almost identical situation
[16:22] Toysoldier Thor: then thursday - identical
[16:23] Toysoldier Thor: i go to 3 or 4 live event a night for like 2 years.... i know what lag is normal ... this is new
[16:23] Simon Linden: hmm, interesting. Well, I'll take a look at the logs for the ones you mentioned and see if they have anything interesting
[16:23] Toysoldier Thor: thanks simon
[16:23] Toysoldier Thor: the details are in the forum thread
[16:23] Toysoldier Thor: exact dates and times and location
[16:23] Simon Linden: Right, I'll get it from there
[16:24] Theadee: I will add to my post on that thread with the sim name
[16:24] Toysoldier Thor shuts up now
[16:24] Toysoldier Thor: hehe
[16:24] Toysoldier Thor: (the chicken skeers me)
[16:25] Simon Linden: The invisible table is open ... does anyone have topics or questions?
[16:25] Boyd Doghouse: lol speaking of not being able to teleport
[16:25] Siana Gearz: the chicken used to be an angry guy with a bloody knife.
[16:25] Boyd Doghouse: I shall fly away
[16:25] Toysoldier Thor: lol
[16:25] Toysoldier Thor: wow.. that is it for the week??
[16:25] Lucia Nightfire: is there being any mroe refinging to the heavey script use deter package that was implented?
[16:26] Lucia Nightfire: as I had a particualr griefer traveling the grid Wed explcitly countering it
[16:26] Bear Hunt Start: Bear Quest Start touched by TheaDee Resident
[16:26] Lucia Nightfire: in an unorthodox fashion
[16:26] Lucia Nightfire: I filed a SEC about it btw
[16:27] Lucia Nightfire: also, I've filed several SEC's and none have been anwsered in weeks
[16:27] Simon Linden: I didn't see that, Lucy ... send me some numbers and I'll pass them to the QA guy who looks at incoming bugs
[16:27] Lucia Nightfire: ok
[16:27] Simon Linden: We sort new bugs a couple of times per week and I don't remember any SEC bugs
[16:27] Baker Linden: That is correct, Siana :) I put away my stabby ways for now to spread cheer and love via chicken suit
[16:27] Baker Linden: ...and to dance
[16:29] Simon Linden: We should get a dance ball for the user group
[16:29] Toysoldier Thor: hope the lindens were looking into the "increase offline IMs / notices limit" opportunity
[16:29] Toysoldier Thor: wink wink say no more
[16:29] Theresa Tennyson: There certainly seems to be some abnormal script activity out there. There are sims running at half speed with 50 ms script time and less than 1% of scripts run per pass.
[16:29] Rex Cronon: everybody dance: thriller:)
[16:30] Thriller Dancer: Say 'on' or 'off'to turn me on or off, or 'help' for more commands
[16:30] Rex Cronon: :)
[16:30] Toysoldier Thor: on
[16:30] Theadee: lol
[16:30] Kennylex Luckless: That is not Gangnam Style
[16:30] Rex Cronon: i should keep my mouth shut:)
[16:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[16:30] Simon Linden: oh no, what have we started....
[16:31] Toysoldier Thor does thriller for Rex
[16:31] Rex Cronon: haha
[16:32] Thriller Dancer: Say 'on' or 'off'to turn me on or off, or 'help' for more commands
[16:32] Baker Linden: off
[16:32] Baker Linden: on
[16:32] Toysoldier Thor: lol
[16:32] Gangnam Glass(synchro dance) whispers: Now Preload Sound
[16:32] Baker Linden: off
[16:32] Thriller Dancer: Say 'on' or 'off'to turn me on or off, or 'help' for more commands
[16:32] Gangnam Glass(synchro dance) whispers: Ready !!
Say "gangnam" start anmation!!
[16:32] Gangnam Glass(synchro dance) whispers: Texture off
[16:32] Theadee: Simon, I would really appreciate any efforts to look into these issues that Toy has brought up. It places significant stress on those of us who hold large scale events and is causing issues for our businesses
[16:32] Toysoldier Thor: on
[16:32] Gangnam Glass(synchro dance) whispers: Texture on
[16:32] Baker Linden: off
[16:32] Gangnam Glass(synchro dance) whispers: Texture off
[16:32] Simon Linden: I've heard of reports like that about the script time, Theresa ... we also saw one where the fps was low but the "spare time" was high -- something that definitely should not happen, unless the OS kernel is not giving it time slices as expected
[16:33] Theresa Tennyson: There are some regions with high SLEEP time but not spare time.
[16:34] Kennylex Luckless: ...
[16:34] Simon Linden: I might be mixing it up ... but that's similar. Basically the OS is sleeping the simulator longer than it should
[16:36] Toysoldier Thor: all went quiet
[16:36] Toysoldier Thor: was it my cologne
[16:36] Simon Linden: brb
[16:36] Theadee: no comment, Toy ?
[16:36] Theresa Tennyson: Also, is Andrew still making significant changes to the interest list projects? Because right now it does nasty things to vehicles, among other things.
[16:37] Toysoldier Thor: simon had to go potty
[16:37] Kennylex Luckless: gangnam
[16:37] Tankmaster Finesmith: how does the interest list affect vehicles?
[16:37] Toysoldier Thor: maybe the chicken can answer
[16:37] Simon Linden: it's a phone call, lol
[16:38] Theresa Tennyson: I had problems with not being able to get on my motorcycle because it wanted to control the camera, and with steering, etc. with a couple other vehicles.
[16:38] Rex Cronon: if your friends vehicle doesn't make it on the interest list than u won't see it even if u r next to it
[16:38] Simon Linden: ... back
[16:38] Rex Cronon: wb
[16:38] Tankmaster Finesmith: everything makes it on the interest list, eventually
[16:38] Simon Linden: Right - the interest list controls all the updates you get, so it determines what you see in-wrold
[16:38] Simon Linden: world
[16:39] Tankmaster Finesmith: but sence it sent via udp, sometimes that information gets lost
[16:39] Simon Linden: Vehicles and other scripted stuff are in a different category than static objects, but they aren't a real special case
[16:39] Rex Cronon: if avatars could remove themselves from the interest list they would become trully invisible:0
[16:39] Rex Cronon: :)
[16:40] Toysoldier Thor: One bug that i read in Nalates blog was that a code upgrade was pulled out because ppl could not see rezzed objects.... I had that happen on my parcel last sunday - my custmoer was standing right in front of my huge mesh object and she could right click it but not see it.... it was just invisible to her
[16:40] Tankmaster Finesmith: griffer, rex :P
[16:40] Simon Linden: The "hidden avatars" feature is an example of that, Rex - basically an interest list check to see if you can see AVs on another parcel
[16:40] Rex Cronon: sneak mode:)
[16:40] Toysoldier Thor: PS - she could see meshed objects in general but had to relog to see the object
[16:41] Rex Cronon: i meant ninja:)
[16:41] Tankmaster Finesmith: the inadvertently code that got pushed didn't have updates to the intrerst list, did it?
[16:42] Tankmaster Finesmith: iirc, it was somethign else that was cauing the issue of not seeing things rezed
[16:42] Siana Gearz: what would interest lists have to do with viewer changes.
[16:42] Simon Linden: Those in-world objects to "fix your AV" or similar names work by moving you far away, which clears out your interest list, then back to where you were, re-building it and getting you new update messages for all the objects around you
[16:42] Simon Linden: They play with the way the interest list works
[16:43] Lucia Nightfire: ruth rockets, heh
[16:43] Tankmaster Finesmith: are those still going to work after andrew's update?
[16:43] Simon Linden: yep - if your viewer doesn't get the main updates about an AV, they are ruthed
[16:43] Simon Linden: They should, I think
[16:43] Tankmaster Finesmith: ok
[16:44] Simon Linden: It all depends on exactly what his changes are, of course
[16:44] Theresa Tennyson: The changes seem fast and cool; but not cool enough for me to put up with an Unsteerable Jeep of Death.
[16:44] Simon Linden: He is trying to prevent sending duplicate data ... right now the viewer is a little *coughs* um, not very smart
[16:45] Tankmaster Finesmith: little?
[16:45] Simon Linden: There are "kill" messages sent from the simulator when an object goes out of view ... there is no difference between something going out of view, and something that is removed from the world
[16:45] Simon Linden: He's trying some things to make it smarter
[16:46] Tankmaster Finesmith: ?
[16:46] Simon Linden: So duplicate data doesn't have to be sent ... but that's the exact mechanism those "ruth rockets" use
[16:47] Theadee: I didn't realize that
[16:48] Theadee: interesting
[16:49] MartinRJ: yeah that behaviour also makes it difficult to make a 'derender' feature for the viewer
[16:49] MartinRJ: tpv's use hacks
[16:49] MartinRJ: but there is no existent code to bring a 'derendered' object back to live
[16:49] MartinRJ: (at least not in the LL viewer)
[16:49] MartinRJ: *life
[16:49] Tankmaster Finesmith: changing your group tag will
[16:49] Simon Linden: It's a odd detail that you only run into if you're digging pretty deep in the code ... but Andrew's work is trying to figure out how to get all that data about the world to the viewer as fast and correct as possible
[16:50] Lucia Nightfire: group tag causes updates for alto fo things for soem reason, heh
[16:50] Siana Gearz: that sounds like an accident.
[16:50] Simon Linden: Changing the group tag?
[16:50] MartinRJ: yes it causes object updates for some reason
[16:50] Toysoldier Thor: Simon.... has there been ANY progress on the horrid failing attachments on Notices???
[16:50] Tankmaster Finesmith: yesh, changing the group tag rereners things that get derenders, it fxes some other things to
[16:50] Toysoldier Thor: this bug is sooo damn frustrating
[16:51] Simon Linden: for objects that aren't on that AV?
[16:51] Lucia Nightfire: even attachments update too
[16:51] Tankmaster Finesmith: we think it has to do with change in permissions forcing an update to some things
[16:52] Simon Linden: It may be the basic message structure ... there are a few different update messages, and I"m not sure how the group tag fits in
[16:52] Toysoldier Thor: but it borks up even the attachments that are offered in the Group window
[16:52] Nalates Urriah: Changing the group tag is an old fix for avatars not rendering, your own and others.... I first heard it when I came in 2008
[16:52] Simon Linden: That isn't expected to change often, so it might be wrapped up in a full update ... and the viewer, not realizing that only the tag changed, updates everything
[16:52] Toysoldier Thor: I remember that trick to change your group tag to NONE
[16:52] Toysoldier Thor: ?
[16:53] Simon Linden: Toysoldier - no news about the group notices, except I was looking at the server-side of that data path and it should soon be more solid than it used to. I don't know if that would affect your bug or not
[16:54] Simon Linden: wow, that was bad lag
[16:54] Simon Linden: does anyone have anything to confesss?
[16:54] Tankmaster Finesmith: lol
[16:55] Toysoldier Thor: well its terrible and affect a lot of ppl.
[16:55] Toysoldier Thor: but i guess its a V3 code issue then?
[16:55] Theadee: another issue that affects me on a daily basis
[16:55] Rex Cronon: come on simon, don't u already know who did it?
[16:55] Simon Linden: no, that was the simulator
[16:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[16:56] Simon Linden: naw, I haven't bothered looking yet.
[16:56] Toysoldier Thor: i hope the viewer developers are looking into this broken attachements on notices and from group windows issue
[16:57] Simon Linden: I'm not sure where that is on the bug lists
[16:57] Toysoldier Thor: i would quote a Jira but it dont mean anything anymore
[16:57] Toysoldier Thor: hehe
[16:57] Kennylex Luckless: I has a question: Some time when I do a sim crossing and has bad FPS I can see avatars for 1 frame and then they are gone. What do I se?
[16:57] Simon Linden: haha
[16:58] Baker Linden: Well, I gotta run. Have a great weekend everyone! I'll see you next week at the UG. Take care!
[16:58] Rex Cronon: tc baker
[16:58] Tankmaster Finesmith: BUG-203 marked as "needs more info
[16:58] MartinRJ: goodbye
[16:59] Tankmaster Finesmith: Group notice attachments malfunction is bug-203
[16:59] Simon Linden: Kenny - what do you mean? You cross, the (server or viewer ?) fps is slow, and AVs appear and disappear?
[17:00] Toysoldier Thor: thank u
[17:00] Toysoldier Thor: Simon.... kick the LL viewer developers to FIX BUG -203 !!!
[17:00] Kennylex Luckless: Well, I flew fron Help Island 1 to Islan 2, when I did cross the sim border I did see avatars for one frame, then they was gone
[17:00] Simon Linden: uh, they don't respond to well to kicking
[17:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[17:00] Tankmaster Finesmith: lol
[17:01] Toysoldier Thor: lol
[17:01] MartinRJ: good point
[17:01] Kennylex Luckless: I did film the screen and you can clearly see it is avatars there, but nothing on minimap or so
[17:01] Theadee: bye everyone
[17:02] Rex Cronon: tc everybody and have nice day
[17:02] Rex Cronon: :)
[17:02] Toysoldier Thor: ok
[17:02] Toysoldier Thor: later all !!@!!!
[17:02] Simon Linden: oh, the minimap updates are their own update message - you many not have them yet from the server
[17:03] Kennylex Luckless: Well, I has to gwt hold of Dan, for I did invent a bug I not can describe fot JIRA.
[17:03] Simon Linden: So it's not always perfectly in sync with the view of the world
[17:03] Lares Carter: Thanks for the meeting :)
[17:03] Kennylex Luckless: oki
[17:03] Simon Linden: I'm not sure what protocol those messages are sent with -- likely UDP, so if the network is losing packets, there could be a delay until it works right
[17:04] Kennylex Luckless: I just did think I did see in to the woid world for a second.
[17:04] Tankmaster Finesmith: I don't know about the minimap, but the normal map gets them via http now
[17:05] Tankmaster Finesmith: have a good weekend, all
[17:05] Simon Linden: hmm, I'd hope the minimap would use the same protocol
[17:05] Kennylex Luckless: Mini map is often good spotting avatars, even hidden badies.
[17:05] Simon Linden: yep, it's definitely useful
[17:06] Kennylex Luckless: Well, I has to go on, I need to expore.
[17:06] Simon Linden: I have to run ... thanks everyone for the chat and ideas today
Simulator_User_Group
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