Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2012.08.31

Simulator_User_Group
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== List of Speakers ==
Andrew Linden 	AnnMarie Otoole 	Ashiri Sands
Baker Linden 	Draconis Neurocam 	Jane1 Bookmite
Motor Loon 	Nalates Urriah 	Rex Cronon
Simon Linden 	TankMaster Finesmith	Theresa Tennyson
Tiberious Neruda	Toysoldier Thor 	
== Transcript ==
[16:00] Motor Loon: ey Andrewski
[16:00] Tiberious Neruda: and a Linden's arrived :3
[16:00] Ashiri Sands: On time..
[16:00] Ashiri Sands: Hi Andrew
[16:01] Andrew Linden: Hello. Yes, on time for once.
[16:01] Tiberious Neruda: just barely
[16:01] Andrew Linden: Almost
[16:01] Motor Loon: close enough
[16:01] Andrew Linden: Of course, we can't start yet... everyone expects me to be late.
[16:01] Tiberious Neruda: LOL
[16:02] AnnMarie Otoole: OK I'll be back later.
[16:02] Tiberious Neruda: it's 4:01... late enough
[16:02] Nalates Urriah: Just set the clock ahead and it'll look like you're late
[16:02] Motor Loon: then again... could just be us today
[16:03] Andrew Linden: Yeah, it is the Friday before a 3-day weekend here in the US.
[16:03] Motor Loon: aah those are good
[16:03] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
[16:03] Motor Loon: ey Rex
[16:03] Nalates Urriah: How is that going to work for the Tueday roll out?
[16:03] Rex Cronon: hi motor
[16:04] Andrew Linden: The Tuesday rollout will happen, baring any problems that pop up over the weekend.
[16:04] Motor Loon notices Simon sneak in late
[16:04] Jane1 Bookmite: Hi Simon
[16:04] Simon Linden: Hi Jane
[16:04] Simon Linden: Hello everyone
[16:04] Rex Cronon: hi simon
[16:04] Simon Linden: I got delayed by a beta viewer update
[16:04] Simon Linden: ... at least that's my excuse
[16:05] Andrew Linden: I'll let Simon talk about the Tuesday promotion.
[16:05] Andrew Linden: I've just been looking into interestlist stuff, in particular how the interestlist decides when/what to send for terrain.
[16:06] Motor Loon: "send for terrain" ?
[16:06] Simon Linden: We're currently planning on promoting the code that's on Bluesteel, although there's a discussion right now about using the code on Magnum
[16:06] Andrew Linden: er... when to send the patches of terrain data, based on your camera position.
[16:06] Motor Loon: oh like terrain rezzing on a nextdoor sim for example
[16:07] Motor Loon: I sometimes have to increase DD to get it to rez, despite it should have been within the current DD
[16:07] Andrew Linden: Yup, and streaming the terrain when you turn around, or when the terrain changes.
[16:07] Rex Cronon: AFK...............................
[16:07] Rex Cronon: afk 4 a few minutes
[16:08] Andrew Linden: I know what is on the BlueSteel channel (a maintenance project that has a few pathfinding bug fixes I helped with).
[16:08] Andrew Linden: What is on Magnum?
[16:08] Theresa Tennyson: Bandwidth, attachment issues and some other stuff.
[16:09] Motor Loon: wasnt it mostly just the "bandwidth spam fix"
[16:09] Simon Linden: The code on Magnum is the same fixes as on Bluesteel, with more fixes
[16:09] Nalates Urriah: SVC-8124 ?
[16:09] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-8124
[#SVC-8124] Excessive "ParcelOverlay reliable" messages sent by regions since last rolling restart (2012-08-08) - Second Life Bug Tracker
[16:09] Simon Linden: That didn't come out right, but basically it's the next in line
[16:09] Andrew Linden: oh that... I wanted to get that into what went on BlueSteel, but missed the deadline.
[16:10] Andrew Linden: My vote goes for Magnum. Is the voting still in session? ;-)
[16:10] Simon Linden: I think it just won, Andrew ... I'm juggling that discussion at work with this :)
[16:10] Theresa Tennyson: I live there and I haven't seen any problems.
[16:11] Andrew Linden: Ok, we'll let you fight for Magnum while we talk about stuff.
[16:11] Andrew Linden: The table is open.
[16:11] Andrew Linden: Oh wait... I had an announcement...
[16:11] Motor Loon: ooO
[16:11] Andrew Linden: Several weeks ago (a month?) I mentioned that I was working on some inventory stuff.
[16:12] Andrew Linden: I'm done looking into that, after working on a script that can repair certain kinds of inventory problems.
[16:12] Andrew Linden: In particular, if you have some folders that show up at the top, outside of the "My Inventory" folder, and cannot be deleted...
[16:13] Motor Loon: "Runaway folders"
[16:13] Andrew Linden: that problem can be fixed. If you submit a support ticket they should be able to fix it now.
[16:14] Andrew Linden: Actually, the repair script has been working correctly for a while now, but I don't think that knowledge has propagated everywhere.
[16:14] Andrew Linden: So I'm trying to help spread the word.
[16:14] Andrew Linden: The only other inventory problem I've seen these days is a claim about lots of "missing inventory".
[16:15] Andrew Linden: All of the cases I've seen so far are actually caused by using a viewer that uses 1.23 protocols for downloading inventory.
[16:15] Nalates Urriah: But the knowledge of the fix has PROPAGATED through support, yes?
[16:16] Andrew Linden: The solution is to either clear inventory cache, connect with a _good_ internet connection, and to refresh your inventory.
[16:16] Motor Loon: so it's a "outdated viewer problem"
[16:16] Andrew Linden: The problem is that if you're getting lots of packet loss while your inventory is downloading it will probably never full download.
[16:16] Andrew Linden: And when you first open it up, it will start downloading lots of stuff.
[16:17] Andrew Linden: So you want to get it started, and just wait for it to think its complete.
[16:17] Theresa Tennyson: HTTP inventory has its own issues though.
[16:17] Rex Cronon: back. and what is a "good" connection? fiber:)
[16:17] Andrew Linden: Yes Nalates, I also spread the word internally that the inventory repair script is working correctly.
[16:18] Andrew Linden: In this case a "good" connection is one that is not suffering packet loss while you're trying to download your inventory.
[16:18] Nalates Urriah: I'll blog it this weekend.
[16:19] Andrew Linden: So... for best results don't overstate your true theoretical bandwidth in your viewer preferences.
[16:19] TankMaster Finesmith: i see i missed a topic i have some knolage in
[16:20] Andrew Linden: If you say you have a 2Gb bandwidth but you really only have 500kb, then the server will probably try to send more packets than you can handle
[16:20] Andrew Linden: which can lead to packet loss.
[16:20] Nalates Urriah: YEah Tank... you are lagging
[16:20] Tiberious Neruda: seems everyone says "1500 max"... no matter what your speed is
[16:20] TankMaster Finesmith: i take it you were talking about hte bandiwth slider in preference?
[16:20] Andrew Linden: In some cases packet loss is a bummer, but the system recovers.
[16:20] Theresa Tennyson: I've seen the server ignore your preferences though.
[16:20] Rex Cronon: a mini-tool for testing connection would be nice:)
[16:20] Nalates Urriah: Yes Tank
[16:21] TankMaster Finesmith: the viewer is caped at 3000 internally anyway, so why preference is st to 10k, i dont know
[16:21] Andrew Linden: But if you're getting packet loss while a 1.23 viewer is trying to download your inventory then you may "lose" lots of inventory -- it will not show up in the viewer, although it isn't actually missing in the database.
[16:21] Draconis Neurocam: rex i like turning on the shownetstats debug setting, because it lets you see bandwidth use and packet loss as it happens
[16:22] Toysoldier Thor: you are warned not to make your bandwidth higher than 1500K no matter what your capabilities are - so when tease customers by offering much larger bandidth
[16:22] Toysoldier Thor: i said this 2 weeks ago
[16:23] Rex Cronon: that is not a bad tool. i was think something simple like. push a button and it tell u if connection is good, ok, or bad. and for mor info it popsup the shownetstats window:)
[16:23] TankMaster Finesmith: theres bugs in the viewer that get trigered when the bandith is set higher than around 1800-1900
[16:23] Andrew Linden: Good point Toysoldier. If we're telling people to not go above 1.5Mb/s then we shouldn't make it easy to set it higher.
[16:23] Toysoldier Thor: so then dont offer higher bandwidth - this limit has been around a long time
[16:23] TankMaster Finesmith: which is why its stated to use 1500 or less
[16:25] Andrew Linden: The table is open.
[16:25] TankMaster Finesmith: i agree, thats why i filed https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SH-3149
[16:25] Draconis Neurocam: andrew have you ever heard of objects being shown in the block list that have no name, and seem to come back when they are removed from the block list, i apparently have three of those, its not really an issue, but the fact that they come back means i would think it is stored serverside and is not being handled right
[16:25] Theresa Tennyson: I've seen logs where regions get told I can use 1500 bandwidth when I actually set my preferences lower.
[16:26] Toysoldier Thor: can i bring up another jira issue which has become as old as time and LL refuses to fix it ? It was filed dec 2007 and excpet for in 2010 when I embarassed Rodvik to get Oz to look at it... that is the only time LL has poked their head on this annoying Jira...
[16:26] Toysoldier Thor: Please pay attention to and FIX https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-28409
[16:26] JIRA-helper: [#VWR-28409] Texture animations ignore repeats per face (llTextureAnim()) - Second Life Bug Tracker
[16:26] Andrew Linden: Draconis, what is the "block list"?
[16:26] Draconis Neurocam: it is the list that is stored when you mute people
[16:26] Rex Cronon: is that mute list?
[16:26] Toysoldier Thor: its likely a very simply bug to fix
[16:26] Draconis Neurocam: but it is called block list now in the viewer
[16:27] Draconis Neurocam: communicate>block list
[16:27] Motor Loon: Wouldnt be good to change behavior of texture animation Toysoldier... that might break content
[16:28] Andrew Linden: No Draconis, this is the first I've heard of that problem.
[16:28] Toysoldier Thor: for large animated textures on prims where repeats are needed - this bug is a major pain
[16:28] Andrew Linden: You say the objects are shown on the "block list" but then they "come back" when they are removed from the block list? You mean they re-appear on the block list?
[16:28] Toysoldier Thor: Phoenix does not believe its a viewer problem
[16:29] Draconis Neurocam: and toysoldier, that would be a client issue, and this is a server meeting, and yes andrew, i am guessing it is because they are not listed as having a name
[16:29] Andrew Linden: Draconis, is the a jira number for the record?
[16:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[16:30] Draconis Neurocam: its never really bothered me enough to make a jira, i can if you like, just sort of an oddity i noticed
[16:30] Toysoldier Thor: Phoenix thinks its a server issue since the texture repeat returns to 1:1 after the user leaves the prim for a period of time... happens on LL and phoenix viewers so this is possibly a server issue. I would be nice if LL would just tell us the root cause . if its viewer then at least Phoenix could fix it on their viewer
[16:31] Andrew Linden: A jira would be nice, as reference point for recovering the details of the problem.
[16:31] Draconis Neurocam: ill make one then
[16:31] Andrew Linden: You think these are objects that have empty names and are therefore hard to remove from the block list once they are there?
[16:31] TankMaster Finesmith: phoenix wont be updated, most likely ever
[16:31] Tiberious Neruda: ...I wouldn't mind for texture animations to not break and 'stick' on one fame...
[16:32] Toysoldier Thor: phoenix the group.... firestorm the viewer
[16:32] Toysoldier Thor: sadly this jira has been ignored by LL since 2007
[16:32] Draconis Neurocam: yes
[16:32] Draconis Neurocam: andrew
[16:33] Andrew Linden looks at VWR-28409 to see if there is a repro recipe...
[16:33] Andrew Linden: Ah yes, I see an example script.
[16:33] Andrew Linden: Ok, I'll make a note and try to reproduce it.
[16:34] Andrew Linden: I wonder if it can be fixed... I wonder how many people are calling llTextureAnim() wrong but expecting the buggy behavior.
[16:35] Toysoldier Thor: Andrew... on our animate texture jira there is a LL jira mentioned... what is that? http://jira.lindenlab.com/jira/browse/DEV-51539
[16:35] Draconis Neurocam: i know a lot of my friends who are creators that have a lot of issues trying to work around buggy llTextureAnim usage
[16:35] Motor Loon: thats what I was wondering too Andrew
[16:35] Toysoldier Thor: this bug is easy to prove.... Oz linden even came on the jira to ask for help but never returned
[16:35] Andrew Linden: The DEV-# jiras wre an old internal jira list
[16:35] Motor Loon: I've been using textureanim for many years and never even noticed a problem
[16:36] Ashiri Sands: I've never encountered anyone expecting and using the buggy behaviour
[16:36] Andrew Linden: we no longer use the DEV-#'s. They were migrated to a newer jira list. An internal portion of jira.secondlife.com instead of jira.lindenlab.com
[16:36] Draconis Neurocam: its when you try to do things with it like keep it on a single frame for the animation
[16:36] Draconis Neurocam: rather than keep it moving
[16:36] Toysoldier Thor: i am just speaking on behalf of the residents on this jira that are tired of this one never getting fixed and i sell waterfall sculpties.. so this affects my customers
[16:37] Tiberious Neruda: ?me points to his avatar, which uses texture animation to do the flashing
[16:37] Toysoldier Thor: i dotn wanna hog the time... just hope you LL's can poke someone on this jira
[16:39] Toysoldier Thor: ohh ohh did i crash or no one has anything to say?
[16:39] Rex Cronon: moment of silence?
[16:39] TankMaster Finesmith: yes
[16:39] Tiberious Neruda: heheh
[16:40] Andrew Linden: Ok, well I'll try to reproduce it, and will examine what happens on the server when llTextureAnim() is called.
[16:40] Ashiri Sands: contemplation of bug fixes
[16:40] Toysoldier Thor: thank u muchly
[16:40] Toysoldier Thor: we can help u if u want andrew
[16:40] Tiberious Neruda: see, this is why I don't mind bringing up a topic that ends up being talked about for 15 or 20 minutes... I figure if someone else wants to introduce another, they cna jump in anytime
[16:41] Toysoldier Thor: We were willing to help Oz but he never took our offer
[16:41] Tiberious Neruda: but the thing that gets me annoyed is that I -have- extra llSetTextureAnim calls in place to try mitigating that 'stuck on one frame' bug, and it still happens
[16:42] Rex Cronon: btw is there something weird going on with magnum, blue, or tigre regardin "no-transfer" pemisssions?
[16:42] Theresa Tennyson: There was before Wednesday, at least...
[16:42] Toysoldier Thor: rofl
[16:42] TankMaster Finesmith: lol baker
[16:42] Motor Loon: holy hell baker
[16:42] Ashiri Sands: some entrance!
[16:42] Andrew Linden: Rex, not that I know of. Could you be more specific?
[16:42] Motor Loon: that blocked my camera totally lol
[16:43] Rex Cronon: i got a weird notice in one of my groups yesterday:
[16:43] Andrew Linden: Heh, Baker logged in and then promptly went AFK.
[16:43] Rex Cronon: wall of text following....
[16:43] Rex Cronon: anyone know of good workarounds for the following?
1) no transfer objects no longer wanting to stay set for sale "contents" when you transfer them.
2) scripts designed to set a no transfer object for sale "contents" do not work anymore on Magnum, Blue Steele, or Le Tigre for many if not all people.
This is breaking content for many merchants, especially those that are in gridwide hunts...
[16:43] Rex Cronon: ok. sees not such a big wall
[16:43] Rex Cronon: seems*
[16:43] Toysoldier Thor: true rex
[16:44] Motor Loon: that was a fix wasnt it
[16:44] Toysoldier Thor: heard merchants complaining about it
[16:44] Motor Loon: to fix products from remaining for sale after sale
[16:44] Simon Linden: if it's on all 3 channels, it's also on the main one, Rex. LeTigre is the same as the main channel except for an unrelated fix
[16:44] Andrew Linden: I thought we fixed that. It was the bug that prevented BlueSteel from getting the promotion last week.
[16:44] Theresa Tennyson: It had to do with permissions changed in inventory not actually changing when rezzed on a RC channel.
[16:45] Draconis Neurocam: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-8207 made, even have a picture to show what i mean
[16:45] JIRA-helper: [#SVC-8207] Objects that have no visible name are unable to be removed from the block list in the viewer, as they show up after being removed. - Second Life Bug Tracker
[16:45] Toysoldier Thor: thats what i understood andrew
[16:45] Theresa Tennyson: It seems to be fixed on Magnum on the one object I noticed acting weird.
[16:45] Rex Cronon: that notice is from yesterday
[16:46] Andrew Linden: Ah, maybe the bug exists on BlueSteel but fixed on Magnum? I can't remember.
[16:46] Motor Loon: gawd baker... you gotta stand still
[16:46] Andrew Linden: However, rumor has it that we're planning on promoting Magnum next week.
[16:46] Simon Linden: Well, as of now Magnum is going out on Tuesday morning
[16:46] Toysoldier Thor: and that will fix this?
[16:46] Tiberious Neruda: ewww... that one could have serious abuse potential
[16:47] Rex Cronon: wow. that huge thing was baker:)
[16:47] TankMaster Finesmith: awww, my ADD was loving the tree, baker
[16:47] Baker Linden: yeah
[16:47] Baker Linden: I love the tree
[16:47] Andrew Linden: Toysoldier, best thing to do would be to test on Magnum.
[16:47] Toysoldier Thor: i only heard the merchant forum bithcing about it - i have not noticed it personally
[16:48] Motor Loon: you were counting leaves Tank?
[16:48] Andrew Linden: I think we're talking about the bug that Kitto Flora brought up a while ago: SVC-8146
[16:48] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-8146
[#SVC-8146] llRezAtRoot() does not set correct parameters (for sale) on rezzed object in Second Life RC BlueSteel 12.08.03.263047 - Second Life Bug Tracker
[16:48] Baker Linden: looking around as the tree is awesome because all the branches + leaves are like my hair, so the tree bugs out hard.
[16:49] Toysoldier Thor: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-8177
[16:49] JIRA-helper: [#SVC-8177] There is different behaivior between the RC channels and the main channel involving permissions, objects lose modify permissions - Second Life Bug Tracker
[16:50] Toysoldier Thor: Theresa is aware of this one as shes on the bottomof the comments
[16:50] Toysoldier Thor: poke poke
[16:50] Andrew Linden: Right, those were related, I think.
[16:51] TankMaster Finesmith: and our jira just crashed... great...
[16:51] Tiberious Neruda: speaking of muting things... why is it muting an avatar doesn't stop them from sending group invites?
[16:51] Rex Cronon: is kind of bad if perms have a mind of their own...
[16:52] Nalates Urriah: Tib, it is probably the difference between muting an avatar and an object?
[16:52] Andrew Linden: Tiberious, that would be a bug. We'll have to track down that communication mode and check the mute list when the group invite is handled.
[16:52] Theresa Tennyson: I had one object that couldn't be modified on Tuesday even though it should have been able to become modifiable on Wednesday.
[16:52] Tiberious Neruda: I think that's my biggest pet peeve... the group invite bots. Muting them doesn't stop me from receiving those
[16:54] Toysoldier Thor: Is LL working on this Jira that is screwing up Attachments on notices? https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7129
[16:54] JIRA-helper: [#SVC-7129] Attachments to group notices malfunction after some time - Second Life Bug Tracker
[16:54] Nalates Urriah: Baker, any word on the Group Edit fix?
[16:54] Baker Linden: Anyway, I just finished up most of the group management stuff. The viewer is loading data successfully, and it should display everything as it did before. I'll probably hold off on pushing it to QA until tuesday, as I really don't like dong commits late in the day, the day before the weekend. But I'm going to get everything ready to go out first thing Tuesday. I'll be working with Oz Linden to help me figure out how to deliver a dev preview build of the viewer for people to see the new code, and I'll be working on documenting the new way group data is managed.
[16:54] TankMaster Finesmith: wheres the repo for that?
[16:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[16:55] Baker Linden: I haven't made one yet, Tank.
[16:55] Toysoldier Thor: its impacting visits to clubs and events but not sure if this is a server or wide scale viewer issue as it does affect LL and Firestorm
[16:55] TankMaster Finesmith: ok
[16:55] Simon Linden: They're going to ignore anything you do today anyway, Baker
[16:55] Baker Linden: I will once I get a hold of Oz next week
[16:55] TankMaster Finesmith: i take it then we will be able to see the code on tuesday?
[16:56] Baker Linden: I'm hoping everything will be available on tuesday, yes. If not, it will be next week. However, the server won't know what to do with the service
[16:56] Andrew Linden: Yes, but you won't be able to play with Baker's new "Group Members Data" web service until he puts it up on a public region on aditi.
[16:57] TankMaster Finesmith: ok, ill be looking forward to it :D
[16:57] Baker Linden: I also have to clean up a few things with the viewer code (namely, my random print debug statements and stuff)
[16:57] Andrew Linden: Toysoldier, I don't think we're working on SVC-7129 at the moment.
[16:58] Baker Linden: I did punt a few things though
[16:58] Toysoldier Thor: ok good - its reallll annoying
[16:58] Andrew Linden: My first theory would be that it is a problem with the dataserver, or else a limit we put on pending messages in some database table.
[16:58] Baker Linden: One, for now, I'm not compressing data. I'll have to figure out how to do that.
[16:58] Rex Cronon: u zip it:)
[16:59] Andrew Linden: er... where "dataserver" is what we call one of our internal servers that handles most of our database queries for the simulator process.
[16:59] Toysoldier Thor: i have a feeling it might be an issue with ppl jumping between viewer installs and the session cache on the server gets mixed up
[16:59] Baker Linden: I am also punting on providing visual feedback during the time the data is being fetched. I'm not sure it'll be needed once it hits agni, as that database machine is a monster
[16:59] Theresa Tennyson: You are usually able to open the attachment once it gets to the "notices" panel of your "groups" dialog.
[16:59] Toysoldier Thor: no - it dont work for me Theresa
[16:59] Rex Cronon: baker. u mean like an hourglass?
[17:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[17:00] Theresa Tennyson: Yikes.
[17:00] Baker Linden: yeah, Rex
[17:00] Baker Linden: my preliminary tests on agni took like a few seconds to get back 60k people
[17:00] Toysoldier Thor: even notices accessed from the group dont work for me until some unknown time or trigger has passed
[17:00] Baker Linden: on agni, it takes about a minute and a half for 40k people
[17:01] Rex Cronon: imo u should deliver all that data as html page:)
[17:01] Andrew Linden: Hrm... I take back that theory about the group notices problem now that I've read the description more carefully.
[17:01] Andrew Linden: Dunno what is going on there.
[17:01] Baker Linden: so, it may be moot to bother including it (please note I'm completely for providing visual feedback!)
[17:02] Rex Cronon: put notices in status bar?
[17:02] Toysoldier Thor: Andrew - this affect any club or event owner or singer announcements etc. on the grid that is trying to send out an announcement and LM to an ongoing or upcoming concert... many visitors just give up and dont go so its a painful one
[17:02] Baker Linden: I can do it, but for now, I'm going to push it off until I can talk to our UI guy
[17:02] Baker Linden: he's not here right now, so next week I'll talk abou tit
[17:03] Baker Linden: I'd rather have the code going to QA and stuff as well
[17:03] Baker Linden: and the TPV devs being able to look at the code
[17:03] Toysoldier Thor: oopsie.... top of the hour
[17:03] TankMaster Finesmith: yeah, we do appriciate your willingness to work with us
[17:03] Rex Cronon: one hour passed already? so hard to notice:)
[17:03] Toysoldier Thor: thanks Lindens
[17:03] Baker Linden: Anyway, thanks for being patient with me learning an absolute ton of stuff about the server and viewer code
[17:04] Baker Linden: and learning python and sql
[17:04] Andrew Linden: Thanks for coming everyone.
[17:04] Toysoldier Thor: waves to all
[17:04] Baker Linden: Thanks everyone, and I'll see you all on tuesday
[17:04] Nalates Urriah: Thx Lindens
[17:04] Rex Cronon: tc andrew baker simon. hae a nice day everybody
[17:04] Simon Linden: I have to go as well - bye everyone. See you on Tuesday
[17:04] Rex Cronon: :)
[17:04] Theresa Tennyson: Bye!
Simulator_User_Group
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