Open Source Meeting/2010-06-17

== Transcript ==
[14:02]	:	I want to get back to a point we have trunk synced with viewer-external so we can do interesting things
[14:03]	:	interesting...like technology options?
[14:04]	:	that being said, let's look at: https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AgvC7hm5YZqcdHVXb05iTE0wTFc0bWptTW4tOTZuS3c&hl=en #gid=0
[14:04]	:	i mean now with paralell computing and cuda stuff the labs being left in the dust
[14:05]	:	there's still a collection of "easy" port at the bottom of that spreadsheet that I mysteriously missed last time
[14:05]	:	I've been working on them (currently stuck on SNOW-122 port)
[14:05]	:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-122
[14:05]	:	but I'd happily take any help
[14:06]	:	I'll going to be buzy for the next couple weeks.
[14:06]	:	I noticed 2.1/2.0.2 has a new crash report lib linked in (that might or might not be relevant)
[14:06]	:	you are correct Thickbrick
[14:07]	:	2.1 is implementing google breakpad
[14:07]	:	but it seemed that avoiding the crash logger altogether (as an option) is still an interesting feature
[14:08]	:	anyway, I'm blocked 'cause I'm learning about the new llcommon way of doing things (since it's a shared lib now)
[14:09]	:	I completely fail adding anything to that LLApp API... that's certainly starring in my face but I miss it... :/
[14:09]	:	I'm going to ask the dev directly
[14:10]	:	are you marking the functions for symbol export?
[14:10]	:	anyway, there are things to do and some ports have been assigned to some folks here (cough... cough...)
[14:11]	:	Robin: yes... or so I think... I'm clearly doing something wrong...
[14:11]	:	this is about Aleric's patch from SNOW-713?
[14:11]	:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-713
[14:12]	:	it wasn't but its very related
[14:12]	:	That's for 1.4 Thickbrick
[14:12]	:	a port of this new llcommon shared thing
[14:12]	:	thats making llcommon shared on 1.4 so similar API pain
[14:12]	:	I think that patch is basically a port of the relevant parts from 2.0 to 1.4, so it might help reading it
[14:13]	:	I did try that patch on Mac yesterday though and it fails to compile big time...
[14:13]	:	I left a message for Aleri in SNOW-596
[14:13]	:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-596
[14:14]	:	anyhow, on the "SG2.0 plan", I'd really appreciate some help on assigned bugs, especially from committers
[14:14]	:	I fee really alone on that one... :(
[14:14]	:	Sorry about that, i've had some other pressure on me to complete projects
[14:14]	:	s/fee/feel/
[14:15]	:	Aimee, do you think you'll have a chance to look at the port JIRA I assigned to you?
[14:15]	 	gets the JIRA number...
[14:15]	:	I try over the weekend
[14:16]	:	kinda pushed with deadlines at the moment :(
[14:16]	:	SNOW-695
[14:16]	:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-695
[14:16]	:	brb
[14:17]	:	that doesnt sound useful
[14:17]	:	don't pan then
[14:17]	:	deadlines? no, those are never useful :)
[14:17]	:	llol
[14:17]	:	Bronson: have you tried it in Snowglobe 1.x?
[14:17]	:	panning?
[14:17]	:	I find it rather useful myself...
[14:17]	:	no
[14:17]	:	yes
[14:18]	:	I find the mini-map panning feature useful.
[14:18]	:	I guess I just dont invision it in my head what it would be good for
[14:18]	:	her comes the wizzard :p
[14:18]	:	not raining on anyones parade or anything
[14:18]	:	Bronson, you can find where a show is if you arrive at a landing point and it is far away
[14:18]	:	oh hey oz
[14:18]	:	hey Oz, nice landing ;)
[14:18]	:	hi Oz
[14:19]	:	hi ... sorry I'm late
[14:19]	:	thats why I have my zoom on the minimap way out
[14:19]	:	the main use I found for it is being able to set the minimap be offset of me, so I can see what ahead, not whats' behind.
[14:19]	:	hoverboard, must be bio-fueled ... it's eating that plant
[14:19]	:	if alot of people use it then its all good
[14:20]	:	Oz, we just talked about work to be done in 2.0
[14:20]	:	lol
[14:20]	:	never mind me lalalalalala meow
[14:20]	:	plan is: get it done ASAP!
[14:20]	:	somewhat related: SNOW-586 is already in 1.4, but I left the 2.0 patch hanging because of criticsm of the UI. So now that I've fixed, I would like another review (mainly the UI issues, the rest is identical to 1.4)
[14:20]	:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-586
[14:20]	:	i have a silly question that no-one at the lab has answered yet
[14:20]	:	dont ask why teh sky is blue
[14:20]	:	that *is * a nice feature. Thanks Thickbrick :)
[14:21]	:	do u guys work from a flowchart of any kind?
[14:21]	:	I don't understand the question?
[14:21]	:	short answer: no
[14:21]	:	something like MS Project I suppose
[14:22]	:	that's why you meant Lestat?
[14:22]	:	what i do is compile client then disassemble it and a flowchart is created - i was wondering if anyone had an original as in design stage
[14:23]	:	oooo... I see... I saw some of those created with Doxygen on the viewer code base
[14:24]	:	Call graph?
[14:24]	:	thats part of it
[14:24]	:	some might still be available on the wiki somewhere (yes, call graphs)
[14:24]	:	Robin's doxygen for 1.x is here: http://omvviewer.byteme.org.uk/snowglobe_1_x_doxygen/
[14:25]	:	oh wow a large group today :)
[14:25]	:	ida disassembler is what i use and then step thru the flowchart
[14:25]	:	does it give you valuable information in the code Lestat?
[14:26]	:	Examples?
[14:26]	 	is all for better tools to grock the code
[14:26]	 	Source General Info whispers: Thank you! Your items will be delivered to you soon!
[14:26]	:	oh yes u see what goes into the registers, what isnt cleaned up when the routine closes etc
[14:27]	:	even displays the python stuff
[14:27]	:	interesting...
[14:27]	:	this one? http://www.hex-rays.com/idapro/freefiles/ida5preview.htm
[14:27]	:	yes thats it
[14:27]	:	did it ever lead you to code fixes, changes?
[14:28]	:	on the viewer I mean
[14:29]	:	not snowglobe but we do fix the holes the griefers use to kill us with in the sandboxes
[14:29]	:	i've used it, its useful for understanding some really complex code... better understanding helps fix things
[14:29]	:	but there are so many tools a person can't learn them all
[14:30]	 	looks in the website... not a free tool it seems...
[14:30]	:	well worth it tho
[14:30]	:	quite possible
[14:31]	:	someone wants to give it a run on Snowglobe and see if we get a usable graph?
[14:31]	:	am i still here
[14:31]	:	yes
[14:31]	:	would be nice to get one posted on the wiki (if the IDA license allows it...)
[14:32]	:	which version snowglobe?
[14:32]	:	2.0 :)
[14:32]	 	gets a URL
[14:33]	:	ok but its a 100+ mb file when its decompiled
[14:33]	:	which is why i do sections
[14:33]	:	Lestat: use https://svn.secondlife.com/svn/linden/projects/2010/snowglobe/trunk
[14:33]	:	ok
[14:34]	:	I'm genuinely curious
[14:35]	:	you know how to create wiki pages Lestat, right?
[14:35]	:	so you can share your result
[14:36]	:	ummm im more into programming and playing i dont do much webwise
[14:37]	:	are you on opensource-dev?
[14:37]	:	no i attended this meet more out of curiossity than anything
[14:37]	:	^^
[14:38]	:	creating a wiki page is pretty straight forward though
[14:38]	:	curiosity is a good thing :)
[14:38]	:	you can join here: https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensource-dev
[14:38]	:	I'm sure your help on something like that will be very much appreciated
[14:38]	:	All Go
[14:38]	:	Well, welcome... now you see how it works... you ask a question, we give you work to do :-)
[14:38]	:	merov i poseted a coment to SNOW-708
[14:38]	:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-708
[14:38]	:	lol
[14:38]	:	lol ok
[14:39]	 	checks WolfPup
[14:39]	:	if you have patches for problem you found this way, that is welcome too...
[14:39]	:	's comments
[14:39]	:	long as im not booted for way out ideas :)
[14:39]	:	More than welcome
[14:40]	:	naw dont worry about it
[14:40]	:	hmmm... interesting Wolfpup... thanks, I'll look into that
[14:40]	:	drat ive taken ova again...back into background
[14:40]	:	if a ignorant cat can say something like something doesnt sound usefull doesnt get booted
[14:40]	:	then you're safe
[14:40]	:	and that is as of this morning since there was an update to SVN server last night
[14:41]	:	lol.
[14:41]	:	k
[14:41]	 	Source General Info whispers: Thank you! Your items will be delivered to you soon!
[14:41]	:	we've 20 in to go
[14:41]	:	Oz, is there an update on SL7B activities?
[14:41]	:	Oz, are you aware of Babbage's attemt at opensourcing bits of the backend mono infrastructure (UThreadInjector)?
[14:42]	:	Kiosk: SL Open Source General Info whispers: Thank you! Your items will be delivered to you soon! <- does not deliver
[14:42]	:	WolfPup, that is after running scripts/update_version_files.py , or is it that that script fails?
[14:42]	:	the script fails
[14:42]	:	lol didnt he learn from the copybot experience?
[14:42]	:	if you try to run it by its self
[14:42]	:	Lestat, what?
[14:43]	:	Lestat, here to spread some FUD? lol
[14:43]	:	and develop.py / cmake i do not thing are trigering it right either
[14:43]	:	if your old enuff u will have heard of the libssl and the copybot
[14:44]	:	Lestat, sorry, but if you had a clue you'd know that became before opensource client
[14:44]	:	sorry - I was distracted
[14:44]	:	yeh and from that outsource it sounds like the same road under another name
[14:44]	:	Yes, I'm following/involved in that
[14:45]	:	there is an outside interest in that Oz, not SL related
[14:45]	:	i guess LL would really reap the benefits of opensourcing it
[14:45]	:	not SL related? mono related then?
[14:46]	:	Merov, yes, many people are interested in a nice working microthreading framework
[14:46]	:	There's not much update on SL7B. I'll put a teleport to the exhibit space up on the platform up the hill once the event is open
[14:46]	:	and LL's is limited to 1.0
[14:46]	:	opensource community could help get it up to speed with the latest and the greatest mono
[14:46]	:	It's being discussed... that's really all I can say until a decision has been made
[14:47]	:	Oz, this kiosk I am standing next to does not deliver anything -- in case you were going to have it as part of SL7B it needs some reprogramming first.
[14:47]	:	what are the arguments against ?
[14:47]	:	I'll do it :D
[14:48]	:	I can prob rescript it
[14:48]	:	Hmm... what part of "that's all I can say" was ambiguous?
[14:48]	:	I hope descision is right. Nothing will show LL leadership comitment to the future of SL platfrom like continuining support to fixing the scripting engine. If that project is droped under the guise of resturcturing I'm afraid it will show the LL top doesn't belive in the SL platform's future
[14:48]	:	why are things always so secret?
[14:49]	:	When you're running a multimillion dollar business, you won't need to ask
[14:49]	:	There are many discussion threads going on within the company
[14:50]	:	as you can imagine, there are significant changes that must follow from actions like the ones you've already heard about
[14:50]	:	I'm confident that the net impact on the open source community will be very positive, and expect to be able to say a lot more about that in the next few weeks
[14:51]	:	In the mean time, I'll have to beg your patience on some things
[14:51]	 	shuts up again, was just wondering
[14:51]	:	Oz: one of the things that your predecessor Rob Linden stated very clearly (right here in the OSS meeting) was that Snowglobe would accept features that support VW interop. Today, Joshua announced that LL has reduced resources for the VWRAP effort. Where does that leave Snowglobe, in terms of supporting interop?
[14:52]	:	http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/vwrap/current/msg00171.html
[14:53]	:	that announcement was about what LL could fund
[14:53]	:	Yep
[14:53]	:	not about what the open source community could do
[14:54]	:	"Linden will continue to be engaged on efforts that directly align with business goals and current development needs" --- and LL controls Snowglobe commits.
[14:54]	:	the trick, of course, is that to the extent things require server changes...
[14:55]	:	SNOW-666 is open for anyone to propose a patch...
[14:55]	:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-666
[14:55]	:	That's understood, nobody could realistically demand changes that require server support. But for Snowglobe changes that do not require server-side change?
[14:55]	:	666
[14:55]	:	lol
[14:55]	:	sorry
[14:55]	:	ikr lol
[14:55]	:	we punted it only because Pixel said she won't have time to adapt her work to 2.0
[14:56]	:	Hmm.... tell you what... I'll give you and answer from Scott Lawrence and what I want to have... if you'll all agree to understand that Oz Linden and Linden Labs are not bound by it ...
[14:57]	:	Merov: I'm more talking about things like enabling Snowglobe to function with features in other grids.
[14:58]	:	snowglobe devs were good in that respect morg
[14:58]	:	I want to get the code base and the development processes restructured such that there's an open body of code that's shared across all viewers and to some extent by the server
[14:58]	:	Merov: without such support, Snowglobe will get progressively marginalized as unusable in open grids.
[14:58]	:	snow-77 is great example of that
[14:58]	:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-77
[14:58]	:	and commits to that body of code would be carefully and cooperatively reviewed both by the community and by LL
[14:58]	:	Oz: good goal, /me nods
[14:59]	:	+1 latif, that was developed in open sim at the same time, good example of working together
[15:00]	:	and that the viewer architecture be evolved so that features and UI differences are easy to do while still using that body of common code
[15:00]	 	3pm PST... needs to run...
[15:00]	:	But there is still an issue of principle that should be clarified --- whether Snowglobe is an SL-only viewer, or whether LL wishes it to embrace the features in other worlds as well.
[15:00]	:	Beta meeting starting now on Aditi
[15:01]	:	thanks Merov, Aimee, Oz
[15:01]	:	tc lindens
[15:01]	:	bye everybody
[15:01]	:	see you oz merov aimee
[15:01]	:	LL wants to encourage and support interop between different virtual worlds
[15:01]	:	laterz :)
[15:01]	:	sorry for ignorant comments
[15:02]	:	but is limited on the resources we can devote to that right now
[15:02]	:	hey oz u from australia?
[15:02]	:	which is not to say that we would not accept contributions to that end as long as they preserve compatibility with SL
[15:03]	:	does that help?
[15:03]	 	will watch closely development around the scripting fixes/improvemetns, if that is shot down, the future for SL will look bleak (imho)
[15:03]	:	haha Bronson I didn't even notice you there XD Nice feral
[15:03]	:	gah not feral
[15:03]	:	Oz: yes, it helps very much. It goes without saying that any changes would preserve compatibility with SL :-))
[15:03]	:	Lestat: no... I'm from the US
[15:04]	:	D: quadriped >.> not feral
[15:04]	:	ah ok
[15:04]	:	lol
[15:04]	:	I expect that you and I will spend lots of time on that set of issues, Morgaine, and I'm looking forward to it
[15:05]	:	heh
[15:05]	:	other metaverses are differen? aw.. If i could repopulate in other metaverses <sigh>
[15:05]	:	need to go guys
[15:05]	:	cheers
[15:05]	:	bai :)
[15:05]	:	yup, me too, bye!
[15:05]	:	see you
[15:05]	:	bye aimee :)
[15:05]	:	oops, times up! lol
[15:05]	:	but that means dll`s and major restructuring and plugins and ewwww
[15:05]	:	lestat same :) nice AV
[15:06]	:	oh fanx :)
[15:06]	:	Oz: it would be sad if the open metaverse blooms and LL is not part of it, so what you said is at least partly encouraging. :-)
 
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