Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2012.12.11

Simulator_User_Group
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== List of Speakers ==
Andrew Linden 	Ava Jhamin 	Belle Roussel
Caffinelover Selona	caryn Ashdene 	christianraven
Davido Chrome 	Duckie Dickins 	ElaraGloriana Scrabblebat
Gamp Lane 	Inara Pey 	Jade Spectre
Jonathan Yap 	Kelly Linden 	Liisa Runo
Lostnero 	Lucia Nightfire 	Marijana Aries
MartinRJ Fayray 	Merrick Genesis 	Mical Darkstone
Mimi Juneau 	Motor Loon 	Nalates Urriah
NeoBokrug Elytis 	Qie Niangao 	PetraLAlexander
Rex Cronon 	SD Damiano 	Sebastean Steamweaver
Simon Linden 	Steele Sirnah 	TankMaster Finesmith
Theresa Tennyson 	Tonya Souther 	Vernes Veranes
Whirly Fizzle 	World Undercroft	Yuzuru Jewell
== Transcript ==
[12:02] Rex Cronon: hi
[12:02] christianraven: Hi Sd
[12:02] Tonya Souther: Wish I could remember why I thought I needed to come pester you folks...
[12:02] Simon Linden: ok, I can get started with some news about server releases ...
[12:02] caryn Ashdene: Hi as you arrive. *s*
[12:02] Caffinelover Selona: hi Falbala and sd
[12:02] ElaraGloriana Scrabblebat waves
[12:02] World Undercroft: this is about a normal frame rate for any show we have done lol
[12:03] Jonathan Yap: Thank you Sebastean
[12:03] Lucia Nightfire utrns LOD down to 0
[12:03] Rex Cronon: hi
[12:03] Lucia Nightfire: *turns
[12:03] Rex Cronon: hello andrew
[12:03] Sebastean Steamweaver: Hey Andrew
[12:03] Simon Linden: So there wasn't an update to the main server channel this morning, as the code in RC has a bug about IMs being sent via email
[12:03] Simon Linden: That's been fixed and will be updated tomorrow
[12:03] Lucia Nightfire: what is with teh TD/FPS...
[12:03] Rex Cronon: usually tere r so many people when something goes wrong...
[12:04] Simon Linden: There will also be another maintenance update in some of the RC channels, which is a superset of what's out there now
[12:04] MartinRJ Fayray: could a linden please kick-off the automated build of the viewer? I hunger for the new viewer-release build. ty so much))
[12:04] Simon Linden: That one has better fixes for the navmesh-rebaking memory leak, and our low-level threading problem that's been causing some crashes
[12:05] Nalates Urriah: low-level threading of which task?
[12:05] Tonya Souther: Is that the one that's caused the physics memory leak that's been hammering some homesteads?
[12:05] Lucia Nightfire: [12:05:06] Scripts counted on zadym Ditko: 648 [23664K] [15.792 ms]
[12:05] Lucia Nightfire: I'd say thats whose lagging us all
[12:05] Simon Linden: I'm not sure how much detail is in them yet
[12:05] Simon Linden: The release notes are here: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2012-12-10/td-p/1762997
[12:05] Simon Linden: Yes, Tonya
[12:06] Tonya Souther: My homestead's been immune so far, but I've been keeping an eye on it just in case.
[12:06] Simon Linden: So I have some hopes that this update will make things better and get us back to earlier performance
[12:06] Liisa Runo: currently the net time is ruining the sim performance, not scripts
[12:06] Simon Linden: Just avoid re-baking the navmesh or changing terrain, if you can
[12:07] Simon Linden: That's it for release news ... Andrew, do you have anythings?
[12:07] christianraven: Hi Lost
[12:07] Andrew Linden: The only news I've got is that I think my interestlist stuff is going to pass QA soon and go into the RC queue
[12:08] Andrew Linden: no new bugs in that.
[12:08] Inara Pey: Congrats, Andrew
[12:08] Andrew Linden: fin
[12:08] Marijana Aries: hello Lost
[12:08] TankMaster Finesmith: please keep the idle chat to a minimum, it will make things run more smothly
[12:08] Sebastean Steamweaver: Good to hear!
[12:08] Tonya Souther: Will that be flagged so we can go poke at it when it does?
[12:08] Whirly Fizzle: woot! Good news
[12:08] Simon Linden: We can identify that release when it gets to the RC channels, I'm sure
[12:09] Andrew Linden: Tonya, my project is already up on Ahern and maybe Morris on the beta grid, so it can be tested there.
[12:09] Tonya Souther: Interest list changes ripple into viewer support pretty fast.
[12:09] Andrew Linden: And it will probably get a bigger channel on the beta grid soon, and will then go into RC eventually
[12:09] Andrew Linden: probably not on RC until 2013 since we have a "No Change Window" later this month.
[12:10] Simon Linden: Right - next week will be the last server updates until after the holidays
[12:11] Nalates Urriah: Since Tuesday is the 1st I am guessing the first week of January is a no change window?
[12:11] Andrew Linden: Yes.
[12:11] Nalates Urriah: Thx
[12:11] Simon Linden: Yes - there won't be updates the week of the 24th or 31st
[12:12] Liisa Runo: can i have SCR-19 for x-mas, im been nice
[12:12] MartinRJ Fayray: ((Nevermind my request about the automated build, I was looking at a cached version of the page))
[12:12] Andrew Linden: Also, this user group won't be meeting on Dec. 25th or Jan 1st.
[12:12] Simon Linden: I'm hoping one of the RCs updated tomorrow can be promoted next week to the main channel. I'm not sure what might go into RC then
[12:12] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SCR-19
[#SCR-19] Script function to return objects - Second Life Bug Tracker
[12:12] TankMaster Finesmith: what, no Christmas surprise? :P
[12:13] Duckie Dickins: What good things will we have to look forward to for 2013? I'm hoping it's Group IMs despite it being the lingering albatross for the last several years now.
[12:13] Lucia Nightfire: object return by script would be a dream
[12:13] Simon Linden: If we told you now, Phoenix, it wouldn't be a surprise :)
[12:13] Sebastean Steamweaver: Heh
[12:13] Sebastean Steamweaver: I have a topic to bring up, or at least mention, if I may?
[12:13] TankMaster Finesmith: hehe true
[12:13] TankMaster Finesmith: is baker here?
[12:13] Whirly Fizzle: 60 seconds animation uploads for one right? ;)
[12:13] Andrew Linden: Uh... I'm sure our operations team doesn't want any Christmas surprises.
[12:14] Simon Linden says "sssshh" to Whirly
[12:14] TankMaster Finesmith: :D
[12:14] Sebastean Steamweaver: This is a somewhat old topic - It was previously proposed that a function be introduced to allow checking an avatar for a certain group. This was run by Kelly Linden, who said it would be extremely hard to implement the way it was presented (not being limited to the active group, needing to respect friend-viewing and public-viewing restrictions, etc), because multiple layers of information would have to be accessed and passed to the server. That's entirely understandable. What I don't understand is why the original, simple, proposal of llMatchGroup - which is identical to the /working/ llSameGroup for all intents and purposes - was also thrown out due to the more complex function not being feasible. http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlMatchGroup - could you shed some light on this?
[12:14] Whirly Fizzle: Its in the Magnum release notes :P
[12:15] Simon Linden didnt' think anyone read those
[12:17] Rex Cronon: lag?
[12:17] Whirly Fizzle points Simon to https://jira.secondlife.com/secure/attachment/62515/server_hamster_ate_them.png :P
[12:17] Lucia Nightfire: region is gonna crash unless someone does something
[12:17] Simon Linden: repeating a lost message: I'll point that out to Kelly, Sebastean
[12:17] Andrew Linden: Sebastean, I can't remember why llMatchGroup was determined to not be feasible.
[12:18] Andrew Linden: Checking the current active group wouldn't be too hard, I think.
[12:18] Rex Cronon: wow. what is going on here?
[12:18] Liisa Runo: yup, net time is still crazy, i see peaks up to 15seconds
[12:18] TankMaster Finesmith: to many agents on the grid, rex
[12:18] Simon Linden: I can't think of any security issue there since I believe that (at least the tag) is sent to the viewer
[12:18] Sebastean Steamweaver: Checking the current, active group would be plenty to make many people happy. I know some wanted a "bigger" function, but in the face of nothing at all, I would prefer to have a little rather than nothing.
[12:19] Rex Cronon: i think the problem is all the attachments people have on them
[12:19] PetraLAlexander: agreed
[12:19] TankMaster Finesmith: scripts are active to
[12:19] Lucia Nightfire: I'm not fat, I'm just fuzzy!
[12:19] Simon Linden: Right, the bigger one just requires too many bits of disperse data and would really kill performance
[12:19] Rex Cronon: scripts don't make this lag
[12:19] World Undercroft: this is just like any typical show any of the models do here
[12:19] Nalates Urriah: We saw this lag happen at Nyx's meeting yesterday in two different regions. I still think it is: http://blog.nalates.net/2012/10/14/sudden-massive-lag-update/
[12:19] Mimi Juneau: we could go naked
[12:19] Sebastean Steamweaver: Ideally, Rex, llMatchGroup would have the same code as llSameGroup (the current function), but would allow the passing of a group key to chekc against.
[12:19] World Undercroft: we are used to it
[12:20] PetraLAlexander: laughs
[12:20] Whirly Fizzle: We could all noob up in the test avi :D
[12:20] PetraLAlexander: mimi
[12:20] Whirly Fizzle gets camera ready
[12:20] Ava Jhamin: We learn to "Fight the Lag" work it
[12:20] Mimi Juneau: we live from lag
[12:20] Ava Jhamin: lol
[12:20] Rex Cronon: will havfe a "bare" meeting:)
[12:20] Steele Sirnah: lag is our friend
[12:20] Ava Jhamin: lol Mimi
[12:20] Rex Cronon: have*
[12:20] Lucia Nightfire: Whirley its not party like its 1999 literally
[12:20] Sebastean Steamweaver: "Don't feed the lag monster!"
[12:20] Andrew Linden: Yeah, this region is suffering from lag. I don't think it is just the large number of avatars
[12:20] Simon Linden: What's the advantage compared to llSameGroup() ?
[12:20] World Undercroft: i can still walk all is well
[12:20] Andrew Linden: although the time seems to be spent sending lots of packets...
[12:21] Lucia Nightfire: sadly I see this daily in one particular sandox
[12:21] Rex Cronon: griefing attack?
[12:21] Sebastean Steamweaver: Simon - currently, if you need to check for a number of groups, you have to have several inter-communicating objects, each set to a different group, to check the avatar. With llMatchGroup, the same task could be achieved with only one object, and one script, with no channel traffic.
[12:21] World Undercroft: yes morris in particular
[12:21] Nalates Urriah: I think this is what Toysoldier was complaining about in his forum thread. http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Increase-in-Instant-SIM-LAG-amp-Crashes-During-Larger-Events/td-p/1683765
[12:21] Andrew Linden: Lucia, which sandbox is that?
[12:21] Lucia Nightfire: major net timing fluxuation and mdeiocre TD/FPS
[12:22] Tonya Souther: Yes...Simon, there's no good way for one object to check for more than one group.
[12:22] Sebastean Steamweaver: A common use case is an item-distributor, or a teleport system that has group-only access settings, which might have objects in several different groups.
[12:22] Gamp Lane: My Christmas wish is for unlimited group space:O
[12:22] SD Damiano: can we have more groups too while you guys dicussing stuff? JS
[12:22] Steele Sirnah: :-)))
[12:23] PetraLAlexander: yes please
[12:23] Tonya Souther: The case I'm thinking of is a door that will only open to people in one group...but I need it to open for people in two.
[12:23] MartinRJ Fayray: You could just change llgetobjectdetails
[12:23] Ava Jhamin: whoooo whoooo that would be nice and why does it matter 25 42 or 100 Andrew
[12:23] MartinRJ Fayray: And return the group for object_group, instead of null-key (current behaviour)
[12:23] Qie Niangao: well, Martin, I think there *would* be objections to that.
[12:23] MartinRJ Fayray: Or would that break existing content?
[12:24] Sebastean Steamweaver: MartinRJ - llMatchGroup is preferable. It requires that the object have the group key it's checking for, rather than telling you what group key the avatar has.
[12:24] Sebastean Steamweaver: Trying to get the group key as readable information would just open a privacy argument that would get the whole thing stalled (again)
[12:24] TankMaster Finesmith: oh hey, its kelly
[12:24] Simon Linden: I asked Kelly on the side about that ... he says there are some ugly complications with web profiles and the settings there
[12:24] Mimi Juneau: hi Kelly
[12:24] Sebastean Steamweaver: Hey Kelly
[12:25] Rex Cronon: hello kelly
[12:25] Mimi Juneau: (but I prefer the Linden with the kice knees)
[12:25] Mimi Juneau: nice
[12:25] Yuzuru Jewell: Hello Kelly.
[12:25] Mical Darkstone: nice meeting and hello to all :-)
[12:25] Sebastean Steamweaver: Just to clarify, what's being discussed isn't the "larger" function for checking avatar groups, but llMatchGroup, which would be essentially identical to llSameGroup in every way, except enabling the passing of an avatar key.
[12:25] Marijana Aries: hello kelly
[12:25] Sebastean Steamweaver: group* key
[12:25] Sebastean Steamweaver: Sorry, mistype, there.
[12:26] Sebastean Steamweaver: Nothing being checked except the active group on the avatar, just like llSameGroup
[12:26] Rex Cronon: i could be used to spy on people?
[12:27] Rex Cronon: it could*
[12:27] Lucia Nightfire: its an explcit group key check though, not a key return
[12:27] Sebastean Steamweaver: llSameGroup takes only an avatar key, and checks against the group the object the script is in to check it. llMatchGroup would take both an avatar key, and a group key to check against instead of defaulting to the object's group.
[12:27] Davido Chrome: You could tir it to onclick events or something like that.
[12:27] Davido Chrome: tie*
[12:28] Sebastean Steamweaver: It would just return a boolean, just like llSameGroup, except you wouldn't have to use multiple, intercommunicating objects each set to a different group, to do checks on multiple groups.
[12:29] Sebastean Steamweaver: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlMatchGroup - this proposal passes a list, but personally I'd be happy with "integer llMatchGroup(key avatar, key group)"
[12:29] Sebastean Steamweaver: Aside from enabling the passing of a group key, the code would presumably be entirely identical to llSameGroup.
[12:29] Sebastean Steamweaver: server* code
[12:30] Yuzuru Jewell: How about hidden group?
[12:30] Kelly Linden: Nearly everyone who talks about the function has a different definition of what it does or what would be needed for it to be 'useful'.
[12:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[12:30] Sebastean Steamweaver: Kelly - this is the baseline feature request. If the alternative is that we get nothing because it's too complex, I'd prefer to go with the simpler solution.
[12:31] PetraLAlexander: simple is soooo good!
[12:31] MartinRJ Fayray: Simple is beautiful
[12:31] Vernes Veranes: Yuzuru: A hidden group who's group-key is already provided in the function?
[12:31] Rex Cronon: lets say an user is part of a sex group and needs to set active group when entering group land. someobdy might be able to find out when that avatar goes to the sex group meeting. lol
[12:31] Mimi Juneau: so? lollll
[12:31] Andrew Linden: So I guess a question would be: is there a version of llMatchGroup that is technically feasible and doesn't cause any privacy problems?
[12:32] Davido Chrome: Or a hair group.
[12:32] Davido Chrome: Not that I am in a hair group.
[12:32] Davido Chrome: Ok I am.
[12:32] Sebastean Steamweaver: Currently, the proposal on the wiki does just that. It can't do anything that llSameGroup does not already do.
[12:32] Kelly Linden: Rex's concern is valid. Even active group keys are not sent to viewers and titles can be intentionally vague.
[12:32] Mimi Juneau: /)))
[12:32] MartinRJ Fayray: One could even have permission request
[12:32] Tonya Souther: ANdrew, I'm not sure that llMatchGroup as Sebastian is describing it is any more privacy invading than llSameGroup is now.
[12:32] Yuzuru Jewell: When user set the group to hidden, does llGroupMach return false?
[12:32] Kelly Linden: By forcing the object to be part of the group we verify the object owner has *some* visibility into that group.
[12:32] Vernes Veranes: What would llMatchGroup add what is not already possible with llSameGroup?
[12:33] Tonya Souther: Vernes, it would add the ability for one object to check membership in more than one group.
[12:33] Rex Cronon: llsamegroup can't deted what group u r in unless object is in save group at avatar
[12:33] Sebastean Steamweaver: Like I said, aside from passing a group key, the server-side code would be identical to llSameGroup. It's do anything llSameGroup cannot, except make things more streamlined because you don't have to set up communication scripts.
[12:33] Rex Cronon: can't detect
[12:33] MartinRJ Fayray: Which makes it somewhat random...
[12:33] Davido Chrome: So you want the script function to see all groups the owner is part of then?
[12:34] Sebastean Steamweaver: Rex, there's an easy fox for that. Check and see if the owner of the object is in the group it's trying to check.
[12:34] Rex Cronon: than the list of group_keys is usless
[12:34] Qie Niangao: Now *that* check might be a bit expensive.
[12:34] Sebastean Steamweaver: More expensive than llSameGroup, Qie?
[12:35] Davido Chrome: Qie, only needs to be done when compiling the script though?
[12:35] Tonya Souther: No, Alve, because the object can be passed to another owner.
[12:35] Caffinelover Selona: how about not having groups pop up so much
[12:35] Davido Chrome: Oh, doh.
[12:35] Sebastean Steamweaver: Also, an owner can leave groups after compilation.
[12:35] Qie Niangao: Seb, the part about checking whether the object owner is in the group being checked in the call... and right: that needs to be dynamic, I think.
[12:36] Kelly Linden: Sebastion it is not feasible to check what groups an object owner is in when that object owner is not in the same region.
[12:36] Yuzuru Jewell: How about access permission of using group for llGroupMatch?
[12:36] Tonya Souther: Mrf.
[12:36] Tonya Souther: Kelly, how would you solve the problem of one object needing to check membership in either of two groups?
[12:36] Kelly Linden: Tonya: Two objects.
[12:37] Tonya Souther: blarg.
[12:37] Sebastean Steamweaver: I'm still unclear on how llMatchGroup is more abusable than llSameGroup, when they provide the same information?
[12:37] Kelly Linden: llSameGroup can only tell you if someone is in a group you are already in.
[12:37] Kelly Linden: llMatchGroup could tell you if someone is in any group you knew the ID of.
[12:37] Tonya Souther: *Were* already in at one time.
[12:37] Kelly Linden: Tonya: correct.
[12:38] Sebastean Steamweaver: What happens to a group-set object when the owner leaves said group?
[12:38] Tonya Souther: All that's required is that you join the group, rez the object, then leave the group...which is just as much a loophole for Rex's concern.
[12:38] Yuzuru Jewell: dangerous..
[12:38] Lucia Nightfire: I've done that with bot checker objects and llSameGroup, join the group only to set the group on the checker object then leave the group.
[12:38] Kelly Linden: Tonya: no it is not becuase many groups are not open enrollment
[12:38] Lucia Nightfire: continues to work
[12:39] Kelly Linden: Lucy and that is fine because you had permission to join the group.
[12:39] Rex Cronon: i personally don't care if somebody finds what groups i am member of
[12:39] MartinRJ Fayray: One solution is to temp attach something to the avatar, get the active group, submit it, and detach again.
[12:39] Lucia Nightfire: right, I know, the issue is still privacy one, sadly
[12:39] MartinRJ Fayray: Right?
[12:39] Lucia Nightfire: despite teh convenience it would bring
[12:39] PetraLAlexander: as long as we don't get abused for being in groups
[12:39] Simon Linden: It's definitely a privacy concern
[12:39] Lucia Nightfire: I'd like llMatchGroup() too, but there is a privacy issue
[12:40] Sebastean Steamweaver: Not just convenience, but traffic cutting :\ A single or so function calls rather than listen events going back and forth.
[12:40] Tonya Souther: And llSay() or equivalent.
[12:40] Tonya Souther: multiple objects, multiple prims, multiple scripts, multiple channels.
[12:40] Qie Niangao: (A disadvantage of llSameGroup in multiple objects for multiple groups: defeats auto-return on group-deeded land.)
[12:40] MartinRJ Fayray: Kelly would my solution work to get the current active group of an avatar?
[12:40] Duckie Dickins: There have been situations when being able to have multiple objects checking for multiple different groups has been necessary. I know with roleplay sims sometimes they will have an object where an object only reacts to faction members belonging to a certain group. The bad part was in order to do that, micro parcels had to be created so that auto return wouldn't return those objects because they had to be set to the specific groups for those faction members to use without autoreturn sending them back for not being set to the land group.
[12:41] Davido Chrome: Sebastean, the customers right to privacy goes before the merchants right to profit.
[12:41] Kelly Linden: For example the Illuminati group could have strict enrollment requirements and need to keep their doings secret. They use a generic title so no one knows when the group is active. They do *not* want others to know who the members are.
[12:41] Lucia Nightfire: Martin's idea should work too
[12:41] Kelly Linden: Martin RJ: I don't understand the benefit of doing what you describe.
[12:41] Lucia Nightfire: its overhead though
[12:41] MartinRJ Fayray: (Temp attach an object to an avatar to read his active group's uuid )
[12:42] Tonya Souther: And it's impossible to have a building with sensors for doors that respond to more than one group to be one object.
[12:42] Lucia Nightfire: but there'd have to be interfacing to allow taht and a click interface would already be abel to know
[12:42] Kelly Linden: Martinrj - that may well work right now.
[12:42] Qie Niangao: hmm, Martin, I've never tried that.
[12:42] PetraLAlexander: people have too much time on their hands
[12:42] PetraLAlexander: wow
[12:43] Gamp Lane: Hi5 Petra
[12:43] PetraLAlexander: HI5 MUTHA FUCKER
[12:43] PetraLAlexander: oops
[12:43] Steele Sirnah: Before the meeting runs out of time we'd like to discuss our concerns
[12:43] PetraLAlexander: sorry
[12:43] Rex Cronon: haha. maybe u came to the wrong meeting:)
[12:43] Andrew Linden: Go ahead Steele.
[12:43] TankMaster Finesmith: so, as a different topic, and sence kelly is here, would LL be interested in a LSL preprocessor? http://wiki.phoenixviewer.com/fs_preprocessor
[12:43] Mimi Juneau: no way
[12:44] Ava Jhamin: I would like to know when LL is going to address the issues of Ramonzita and the fashion industry issues please and thank you.
[12:44] Ava Jhamin: a date a specific time for our specific issues would be lovely.
[12:44] Qie Niangao: Umm... well, while Kelly's here, I would like to plant a seed: With Materials, it will be very important that the server side support script setting of specularmaps and normalmaps, and animation of them.
[12:44] Steele Sirnah: a number of people before you have been extorted, copybotted, harrassed, threatened, Store owners have had their entire stores copybotted
[12:45] Steele Sirnah: 100's of AR's have been reported
[12:45] Simon Linden: That's an issue for our governance people, Mrs Capalini. The Lindens here are developers that work on the servers
[12:45] PetraLAlexander: or violators of TOS and griefer attackers
[12:45] Tonya Souther: QIe, that's ont he materials group's radar.
[12:45] World Undercroft: is there any way of making a waiting limit on a new avatar making a group, currently there has been a lot of one day old avatars spamming welcome areas with groups that have a 999 linden signup fee or 50 lindens etc
[12:45] Simon Linden: We don't have information or input on what is going on with those tickets
[12:45] Sebastean Steamweaver: Thank you for talking with us about it Kelly, I appreciate the time - I do understand the concern more, now.
[12:45] Qie Niangao: Tonya, thanks; didn't know the Mat'ls group was doing script side of it, so that's very good. (wasn't sure where to raise it, tbh.)
[12:45] Simon Linden: It sounds like an ugly situation, however
[12:46] Ava Jhamin: We were told yesterday that we would get a meeting to discuss it has been reported by myself to the FBI and I would like something address not today but soon.
[12:46] Merrick Genesis: Is there a way we can get any Lindens who care to actually sit down with us and discuss this.
[12:46] Tonya Souther: We're not doing the script side of it ourselves, but we know it'll be a requirement.
[12:46] World Undercroft: any update on our requested meeting as nyx mentioned yesterday?
[12:46] Mimi Juneau: nobody is willing to help us for about 8 months now !
[12:46] Duckie Dickins: payment info on file requirement on group creation would fix that. :)
[12:46] SD Damiano: we pay alot of mondey here rl money which w earn for our enjoymnet the least we expect from linden labs is protection of our property, considering we pay here
[12:46] Ava Jhamin: She has stolen people's acconts and money and what she is doing is a federal offense and can't be brushed under the carpet it needs to be looked into
[12:46] TankMaster Finesmith: the lindens here like have no idea what goes on in other UGs, world
[12:46] Steele Sirnah: Model shows are being extorted by Ramonzita asked to pay thousands of lindens or she sim wiill crash, she is copybotting entire stores if the store owners doesn't pay lindnes to her
[12:47] Jade Spectre: i think since i've personally been copybotted and sold on market....and been a resident for 7 years, i could get some kind of answer
[12:47] World Undercroft: well thank you so much finesmith
[12:47] Motor Loon: You guys really should stop comming to usergroup meetings with that stuff... it's not the place for it nor will it help your case
[12:47] Simon Linden: I think most of you know how difficult it is to protect content in SL ... anything sent to the viewers can be stolen by modified viewers. Only scripts and the baked skin layers are not sent there
[12:47] Ava Jhamin: and all of us at one point or another have sent reports to you with nothing....
[12:47] Duckie Dickins: I don't think the lindens would want a governance user group...... everyone would be there with torches and pitchforks. :)
[12:47] World Undercroft: nothing helps our case
[12:47] Jade Spectre: "that stuff"
[12:47] Jade Spectre: ?
[12:47] Andrew Linden: Yes. Unfortunately we are all C++ devs working on the backend servers and don't know anything about AR tickets, or DMCA takedown requests.
[12:47] PetraLAlexander: But Kelly, it is getting out of control
[12:48] Merrick Genesis: Someone extorting in SL for 8 months means LL faces some willful negligence charges if something isn't done. And we have no other place to have our concerns heard.
[12:48] Ava Jhamin: well they should......you can boot people for copyboting yes....then look into it look at Ramonzita's web page she is sellign copy botted people....
[12:48] SD Damiano: so whya re we not been given a date time and place for our issues, our money is good but our complaints are not?
[12:48] Jade Spectre: FOR MONTHS
[12:48] Mimi Juneau: Mister Loon I'll send her to you tonight, you will see all your motors on mp tomorrow
[12:48] Ava Jhamin: then get this to someone who can do something
[12:48] Steele Sirnah: Nyx said yesterday he would pass along our info to the office and set up a meeting for us
[12:48] Jade Spectre: we are being harassed by someone doing illegal thing who has been reported to linden by multi residents on multi occasions with no help
[12:48] NeoBokrug Elytis: Expecting an answer for your issues here, is like going to the Janitor of Bank of America and asking to open a new account. :\
[12:48] Lucia Nightfire: this is the wrong group to complain about IP issues I'm afraid
[12:48] Merrick Genesis: Can you get us in touch with someone who can listen and communicate with your customers?
[12:48] Ava Jhamin: her terror of one of the biggest if not biggest industries in sl is at risk...
[12:48] Davido Chrome: The only way Linden lab could stop copybotting is to render everything locally and stream it back as video. That takes servers that only exist in Science Fiction...
[12:48] NeoBokrug Elytis: But if you have server related issues, these guys can help.
[12:48] Mimi Juneau: ok Neo tell us where to go !!!!
[12:48] Jade Spectre: thats why we are here....where is the right place?
[12:48] Motor Loon: She'd be welcome if it will stop you guys from comming to all the usergroups with the same story over and over
[12:48] Mimi Juneau: LL is an ivory tower
[12:48] Steele Sirnah: The Mrs Virtual world show is coming up this weekend can we have a linden there???
[12:48] Rex Cronon: i don't think those lindens responsible for handling abuse reports r crazy to have office hours;)
[12:48] SD Damiano: seems like we just gt brushed aside no matter what "right" procedure we take
[12:48] Ava Jhamin: The fashion industry is huge do something tell someone
[12:48] Merrick Genesis: Yes, without these designers, these little scripting groups won't have funding.
[12:48] Kelly Linden: * That LSL preprocessor looks pretty nifty.
[12:48] Merrick Genesis: they own the sims
[12:49] Lucia Nightfire: but if there is a Linden sponsered meeting any time soon, I'd like to know when and where, lol
[12:49] Merrick Genesis: they drive the economy
[12:49] World Undercroft: until we have a resolution or meeting setup this (i believe) is still an open place to discuss anything
[12:49] Steele Sirnah: The creator of MVW is being extorted
[12:49] Duckie Dickins: I've used the LSL preprocessor for quite some time. It's pretty nifty.
[12:49] TankMaster Finesmith: it will require an update to boost to get working, kelly, (needs wave)
[12:49] Kelly Linden: * I'm not aware of the materials groups' plans regarding LSL support or integration.
[12:49] NeoBokrug Elytis: I know the DMCA process was a bit sluggish back in the day, but I think it may be faster now. So I'd file DMCAs, and Abuse Reports.
[12:49] Ava Jhamin: If people are calling the FBI hello this is serious set up meeting with who we need that is all were asking for here.
[12:49] Tonya Souther: This is a group to discuss the nuts and bolts of the SL server infrastructure. Governance issues are not within its scope.
[12:49] Steele Sirnah: this is the only forum we have Tonya
[12:50] Merrick Genesis: Please, let us know how we can get some communication from LL.
[12:50] Vernes Veranes: Like talking to the janitor at a police station (no offense)
[12:50] Steele Sirnah: Obviously if things were good we wouldn't be here
[12:50] PetraLAlexander: At least take one day to listen to the concerns that is happening
[12:50] Jade Spectre: or if we hadnt taken several other routes.....
[12:50] Mimi Juneau: we are completly ignored here?
[12:50] Motor Loon: Not you dont really have this forum either Steele
[12:50] Merrick Genesis: Yes, we need and deserve to be heard.
[12:50] Tonya Souther: The people here do not have the power to deal with your issues, nor do they have the power to drag other Lindens into the issue.
[12:50] SD Damiano: well record whats being said here we can pass on how much notice is being taken of us no matter how we approach this
[12:50] Steele Sirnah: i guess not as we are being ignored
[12:50] NeoBokrug Elytis: Rather than call the FBI, get a lawyer. :P
[12:50] Qie Niangao: Thanks, Kelly. Just eager to see the script interface to Materials when they arrive. Lots of fun stuff can be done that way, kind of get around some of the scripting limitations of Mesh, among other things.
[12:51] Ava Jhamin: every person and thousands more have reported what will it take her crashing all of SL because I believe she has the capability to do just hat....is that what you would like lindens
[12:51] SD Damiano: rather than brush aside set up a meeting and let us be heard
[12:51] Vernes Veranes: A lawyer will go to Linden Lab office directly
[12:51] Tonya Souther: Yes, you deserve to be heard, but by the people with the power to deal with your issues...and those people are not here and do not work directly with the ones who are here.
[12:51] Andrew Linden: Have DMCA requests been filed? I think that is the proper path to take.
[12:51] Simon Linden: I'll promise one thing ... I write an internal weekly memo about status of some of our work. I will include a note saying this was a big concern at user group today. The report gets read by the execs, so they will see it
[12:51] Merrick Genesis: Tonya, where do we go?
[12:51] World Undercroft: yes multiple
[12:51] Sebastean Steamweaver: One thing I will say is that the lindens here DO /Listen/. I can personally attest to that. But yes, Neo has a point, I don't think the FBI will be the authority to contact.
[12:51] Lucia Nightfire: it will take lawyers to get anything done with IP cases I'm afraid, and alot of money....
[12:51] Ava Jhamin: tons andrew
[12:51] Steele Sirnah: many many DMCA's
[12:51] Steele Sirnah: many many many AR's
[12:51] SD Damiano: linden gonan pay for lawyer because they take enough of our money already and seems when we have issues we are nothing
[12:51] Kelly Linden: Qie: I am concerned that some of the same issues around mesh and LSL also apply to materials. I'm also concerned that I haven't been involved in any LSL design for materials.
[12:51] Ava Jhamin: we are not going to be put off anymore
[12:51] Kelly Linden: Qie: so we will see. :)
[12:51] Tonya Souther: Merrick, at the moment, I don't think there is an open forum.
[12:51] Ava Jhamin: this is fucking with designers, and agenciess and people do somthing
[12:51] Steele Sirnah: Live chat with a linden while extortion was being done on site was ignored
[12:51] Mimi Juneau: we will keep coming to all these meetings
[12:52] Qie Niangao: Kelly, that concerns me, too... but I haven't been following it at all, recently.
[12:52] Tonya Souther: Kelly: Drop Brooke and Oz an email and let them know about that.
[12:52] World Undercroft: it was mentioned that Nyx would try and arrange a forum for us here
[12:52] Tonya Souther: I'll mention it when I see them next, too.
[12:52] Steele Sirnah: we pay big money and deserve to be heard and enjoy our Second Life
[12:52] Rex Cronon: u know. linden labs has a twitter account. u could ask ll on twitter:)
[12:52] Davido Chrome: A heads up on BUG-1009 . I think it was closed for the entirely wrong reason.
[12:52] SD Damiano: maybe betetr than lawyer press rl would be a better shot so it can be public knowledge what liden are allowing to go on here
[12:52] Mimi Juneau: did that
[12:52] Davido Chrome: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-1009
[12:52] Ava Jhamin: Tell me something Andrew what is the biggest money maker besides selling land in sl.....
[12:52] PetraLAlexander: We're here to have fun
[12:52] PetraLAlexander: not stress the hell out
[12:52] Ava Jhamin: in case don't know it's fashion, stores
[12:52] Steele Sirnah: and currently we are not allowed to have fun
[12:52] PetraLAlexander: over some idiot
[12:52] Steele Sirnah: we cannot do what we do on SL
[12:52] Motor Loon: [12:51] Mimi Juneau: we will keep coming to all these meetings <--- spoken like true griefers
[12:53] Mimi Juneau: yeah
[12:53] Ava Jhamin: the whole industry is being turned upside down....so give us a linden who will do something about it...
[12:53] Steele Sirnah: because of extortion, harrassment, criminal activities galore
[12:53] Mimi Juneau: learned from the master
[12:53] Vernes Veranes: Motor, hush
[12:53] Gamp Lane: If this is not the proper forum as you say..who can we contact for a meeting..that CAN address our issues?
[12:53] World Undercroft: yes we are the griefers lol
[12:53] Yuzuru Jewell: Davido, I can't see your JIRA..
[12:53] Rex Cronon: motor. somebody that comes for help is not a griefer
[12:53] Steele Sirnah: yes we are the problem for being here voicing our concerns
[12:53] SD Damiano: dont pay good money to be copybotted
[12:53] Sebastean Steamweaver: Steele - the lindens do the best they can. They do what they must to protect what they're able. That's why llMatchGroup is so debated in the first place, to protect privacy in what little ways are possible. It's not a matter of them not being willing.
[12:53] SD Damiano: we are not being protectetd though
[12:54] Davido Chrome: Yuzuru, Grrrrrrr, Damn new Jira system... Posted it to SLuniverse, hold on...
[12:54] SD Damiano: thats the issue here
[12:54] World Undercroft: to expect privacy in sl is a utopian dream
[12:54] Tonya Souther: Have any of you tried contacting Soft Linden?
[12:54] Merrick Genesis: I think I saw something. I think the press needs to know about this. SL has such a stellar reputation, they'd love to know that the company allows someone to extort regularly despite proof of the extortion being sent in repeatedly.
[12:54] SD Damiano: we are not being protected
[12:54] Sebastean Steamweaver: Some things can't be protected - that's the simple truth of it.
[12:54] Steele Sirnah: google he name ramonzita resident
[12:54] Steele Sirnah: see what we are dealing with
[12:54] Steele Sirnah: and her 500 alts
[12:54] Ava Jhamin: this isn't just a matter of privacy she can hack accounts and has....and then we have to proove to you that we are who we say we are.
[12:54] Merrick Genesis: Folks, let's go to the RL press
[12:54] Whirly Fizzle: This situation os pretty bad. Ive heard a lot about it recently. Sorry you guys are haveing to deal with this.
[12:54] ElaraGloriana Scrabblebat: soft linden? is this who we should be voicing our concerns to?
[12:54] Theresa Tennyson: It would help a lot if you could send ONE person representing you instead of thirty people who end up lagging down the sim so nobody can say anything.
[12:54] Steele Sirnah: it sucks
[12:54] Davido Chrome: http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/sl-jira-issue-discussion/79002-bug-1009-gimbal-lock-when.html
[12:54] Ava Jhamin: https://marketplace.secondlife.com/stores/124907
[12:54] Merrick Genesis: One person showing up is called a Troll
[12:54] Sebastean Steamweaver: Merrick - the SL world isn't quite that big. The RL press would get more entertainment that people were getting upset about it than they would any actual theft.
[12:54] Merrick Genesis: right World?
[12:54] World Undercroft: i tried
[12:54] Tonya Souther: He's the one who has been dealing with security issues, to the best of my knowledge.
[12:54] World Undercroft: yes
[12:54] Steele Sirnah: one person just odesn't get the attention
[12:54] Mimi Juneau: right
[12:55] Ava Jhamin: there look all copybotted she does to people and fucks with there lives here....becomes them
[12:55] Jade Spectre: lol one person
[12:55] Steele Sirnah: one person is called a troll and harrassed for voicing the concern
[12:55] World Undercroft: now we are all griefers
[12:55] Steele Sirnah: many are taken seriously
[12:55] World Undercroft: give me a break
[12:55] Jade Spectre: after alllllll of the people who have made complaints? one person? we cant even get one answer
[12:55] Steele Sirnah: not one answer
[12:55] SD Damiano: we jst want someone to listen and deal with this problem because as lindens clients tahts what we are really we need protection of money and property we spend here
[12:55] Ava Jhamin: We want to go through channels but damn give us an inch give us something
[12:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[12:55] Lucia Nightfire: this Occupy Server Dev Chat isn't achieving anyting, you'll have to go through other channels
[12:55] Merrick Genesis: for those complaining about us being here, remember that if crime is allowed to continue in SL unchecked, it could be your bank account next
[12:55] PetraLAlexander: I think they are reading all this
[12:55] Vernes Veranes: "other"
[12:55] Steele Sirnah: we have ar'd 10000 of times DMCA's filed and still nothing
[12:55] Tonya Souther: If you guys keep voicing your concerns - valid ones, to be sure - to groups that have exactly zero ability to respond to your concenrs in any meaningful way,e ven after you've been told that, then yes, you are acting just like griefers.
[12:56] Ava Jhamin: we have understand I know for a fact she has been here for over 2 years
[12:56] Steele Sirnah: these ren't vaild???
[12:56] Sebastean Steamweaver: No answer? What did Simon say just a few minutes ago? "Anything sent to the viewer can be copied, and everything except baked skins and scripts are sent to the viewer."
[12:56] Mimi Juneau: there are no other channels
[12:56] Merrick Genesis: Tonya, again, where should we go?
[12:56] Jade Spectre: tonya....
[12:56] NeoBokrug Elytis: Well, I wish we could help with the listening. But this group doesn't have the authority to deal with those issues. :( Since I don't attend other groups, I don't know who does.
[12:56] Ava Jhamin: how much are we supposed to take before LL gets off it's ass and looks at it
[12:56] Jade Spectre: i have had to move from my sl home
[12:56] PetraLAlexander: Yes
[12:56] Gamp Lane: this could affect anyone..not just the fashion industry..so think on that
[12:56] PetraLAlexander: and that sucks
[12:56] Jade Spectre: cannot go anywhere in sl without being attacked by alts of this person and harassed constantly
[12:56] SD Damiano: to allow one person to commit criminal offences here it mean lidens are par taking as we are beig ignored its as simple as that
[12:56] Steele Sirnah: why no hardware ban??
[12:56] Whirly Fizzle: This is the person that crashes regions at events if you dont pay then 60k right?
[12:56] Whirly Fizzle: *them
[12:56] Steele Sirnah: why not even ban the avatar?
[12:56] Merrick Genesis: why not delete the av
[12:56] MartinRJ Fayray: I guess the meeting is over, goodbye everyone
[12:57] World Undercroft: yes
[12:57] Ava Jhamin: it does affect Gor sims, fashion, individual businesses...she has stolen inventory and sold on market....
[12:57] Sebastean Steamweaver: The fact of the matter is, ifSL were operated in such a way as to completely prevent copying, SL would not exist. You would not be able to have it at all. You would not have a Second Life, period.
[12:57] Steele Sirnah: yu purge names all the time
[12:57] Rex Cronon: post info about this on youtube, flickr
[12:57] Motor Loon: sighs...
[12:57] Steele Sirnah: why not this one?
[12:57] Duckie Dickins: Well...one solution is to go back to pay to play like it was in the beginning. I forsee a lot of these issues suddenly going away..but then again so would much of the SL population..
[12:57] Davido Chrome: "
[12:51] Simon Linden: I'll promise one thing ... I write an internal weekly memo about status of some of our work. I will include a note saying this was a big concern at user group today. The report gets read by the execs, so they will see it"
[12:57] Ava Jhamin: bullship sebastian
[12:57] Davido Chrome: "
[12:51] Simon Linden: I'll promise one thing ... I write an internal weekly memo about status of some of our work. I will include a note saying this was a big concern at user group today. The report gets read by the execs, so they will see it"
[12:57] NeoBokrug Elytis: Simon, will you deliver my a pizza?
[12:57] Ava Jhamin: https://marketplace.secondlife.com/stores/124907
[12:57] World Undercroft: then why create content in the first place
[12:57] Ava Jhamin: go tell that to these people
[12:57] Ava Jhamin: stolen
[12:57] SD Damiano: yet she is aloowed to openly copy bot oru personal propertya nd seel it on YOUR market place
[12:57] Simon Linden: uh, what toppings?
[12:57] Vernes Veranes: Hey, what's the status of that ban-script that caused somuch commotion?
[12:57] Steele Sirnah: We promise to be at every meeting as well until something is done
[12:57] NeoBokrug Elytis: Extra cheese, light sauce, and pepperoni
[12:57] Vernes Veranes: soemthing with the name.. ice?
[12:57] Ava Jhamin: she has stolen all of Chop Zuey and sold it....blush
[12:58] Tonya Souther: Thank you for griefing the UGs, Steele.
[12:58] World Undercroft: unless the world ends lol
[12:58] Steele Sirnah: the owner of Chop Zuey is here <33 Belle
[12:58] Ava Jhamin: ask them look into it and do SOMETHING
[12:58] Davido Chrome: "
[12:51] Simon Linden: I'll promise one thing ... I write an internal weekly memo about status of some of our work. I will include a note saying this was a big concern at user group today. The report gets read by the execs, so they will see it"'
[12:58] PetraLAlexander: This is not a resident vs resident situaion
[12:58] Jade Spectre: she has stolen several skin stores and shape stores and sends them out free
[12:58] SD Damiano: griefing lol
[12:58] Mimi Juneau: I understand this is a cosy group of scripters, but please try to understand us too
[12:58] Merrick Genesis: Tonya, give us a forum and we'll go there instead
[12:58] Davido Chrome: "
[12:51] Simon Linden: I'll promise one thing ... I write an internal weekly memo about status of some of our work. I will include a note saying this was a big concern at user group today. The report gets read by the execs, so they will see it"'
[12:58] Sebastean Steamweaver: Heh
[12:58] World Undercroft: thank you Simon
[12:58] Jade Spectre: and crashes shows for rl charities
[12:58] Tonya Souther: Merrick, there is no forum, to the best of my knowledge.
[12:58] Yuzuru Jewell: The mesh objects were stolen?
[12:58] World Undercroft: thats all we ask for
[12:58] Sebastean Steamweaver: I'm going to get you a fruit basket Simon, again.
[12:58] SD Damiano: tyvm for ignoring us once again partners in crime it seems
[12:58] Tonya Souther: That does NOT give you the right ho hijack every other forum.
[12:58] Steele Sirnah: We look forward to results Simon thank you
[12:58] Merrick Genesis: then quit complaining about us being desperate
[12:58] Mimi Juneau: they will see and?
[12:58] ElaraGloriana Scrabblebat: thank you Simon, for doing what you are able. and for hearing us. but please, give this the gravity it deserves when bringing this issue up within LL
[12:58] Merrick Genesis: it's been 8 months
[12:58] Steele Sirnah: we will see you at the next meeting
[12:59] SD Damiano: is she paying linden labs for her criminal activity?
[12:59] Merrick Genesis: imagine 8 months without being able to script
[12:59] Tonya Souther: Steele, what will you do whtn LL terminates these forums as well?
[12:59] Jade Spectre: this is the first time i've been here sorry we interupted ur important sex group talk for our concerns as sl citizens...i've personally be here 7 years and spent god knows how many lindens
[12:59] Vernes Veranes: damiano is not being helpful.
[12:59] TankMaster Finesmith: look, we get that your passionate about your work here in SL and want protect your investmenst, but the reality is, the lindens here are not capable of dealing with your issues. the are to far removed from the proper channels to deal with such issues
[12:59] PetraLAlexander: maybe shes a ploy to see how one gets away with breaking SL codes, programs, etc
[12:59] Davido Chrome: I would never have your problems since I tend to give the scripts I spend a lot of hours developing away for free...
[12:59] Merrick Genesis: the lindens here can communicate with others
[12:59] Steele Sirnah: are you a content creator?? what would you do if you were and your store stolen copybotted and told it was going to be passed out unless you paid 200 K in lindens
[12:59] Steele Sirnah: and you reproted to LL
[12:59] Steele Sirnah: and LL did nothing
[13:00] SD Damiano: oh LL will sit up and take notice when it gets bad press rl seems you can only get attention getting down and dirty here its how LL like it for why eles would that woman be egtting away with this for so long
[13:00] Tonya Souther: Steele: Yes, as it happens, I *am* a content creator.
[13:00] Rex Cronon: the question is. what will the linden do if they close all communications. is not in their best interest to do that
[13:00] Steele Sirnah: everything you created given away
[13:00] NeoBokrug Elytis: I understand you guys have issues, and some of the people here are estate owners who shell thousands of dollars per month, so no offence -- but we like to be involved in helping make the servers better -- thus that's what this meeting is for.
[13:00] Steele Sirnah: and your entire store passed out thorugh groups
[13:00] Simon Linden: I can't promise any results, I'm going to pass along your message. Actually enforcing much of what you're asking would require huge changes to SL ... preventing media theft is difficult if we send the data to an open source viewer. The viewer needs those meshes, sounds and textures to draw the world, and any half-decent coder can steal them
[13:00] World Undercroft: ok
[13:00] Steele Sirnah: this ishappening tonya to quite a few creators
[13:00] Duckie Dickins: Actually I think most people who come to these meetings are content creators/developers.
[13:00] Merrick Genesis: we're trying to make the service better too
[13:00] Jade Spectre: then the person who does it OPENLY admits it in local chat
[13:00] Steele Sirnah: hopefully you don't find your way onto that list
[13:00] World Undercroft: my service sucks
[13:00] Belle Roussel: i just know a few of my items copybotted, but she contacted me numberous times and tried to extort 100000 linden from me. I sent numerous ARs on it
[13:00] Jade Spectre: and has no recourse
[13:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[13:00] Davido Chrome: The only way Linden lab could stop copybotting is to render everything locally and stream it back as video. That takes servers that only exist in Science Fiction...
[13:00] PetraLAlexander: we understand what YOU have to do to make the game work
[13:00] World Undercroft: meeting adjourned
[13:00] PetraLAlexander: but
[13:00] Merrick Genesis: this is about extortion
[13:00] Vernes Veranes: damiano: then create bad press, heavens know we need SL in the media anyway
[13:00] Andrew Linden: Huh, so the extortion racket is a threat to crash the server for a particular event?
[13:00] Merrick Genesis: not copybotting
[13:00] PetraLAlexander: you have a violator
[13:00] Tonya Souther: My products are heavily scripted, and they can't copybot that.
[13:01] PetraLAlexander: or many sorts
[13:01] Steele Sirnah: ppfft
[13:01] World Undercroft: yes
[13:01] Davido Chrome: The only way Linden lab could stop copybotting is to render everything locally and stream it back as video. That takes servers that only exist in Science Fiction...
[13:01] Ava Jhamin: and what happen Belle did LL do crap
[13:01] PetraLAlexander: provoking the fun
[13:01] Steele Sirnah: LOL
[13:01] TankMaster Finesmith: oh, id be just as upset as you are, steele, but this isn't the right place to deal with those issues
[13:01] World Undercroft: yes andrew
[13:01] Belle Roussel: no i never heard anything back from them
[13:01] Merrick Genesis: where is the right place
[13:01] Andrew Linden: Has there been many successful event disruptions against those who would not pay the fees?
[13:01] Ava Jhamin: No all were asking is we have been through the proper channels and were not getting anywhere and in the meantime
[13:01] World Undercroft: YES
[13:01] Merrick Genesis: yes
[13:01] Lucia Nightfire: I think many people need to reread the policy on Intellectual Properties and the rights of the owners and creators and the responsibility of LL, you'll sadly see why so much theft is not being dealt with. Because it doesn't have to be.
[13:01] Ava Jhamin: I have to go through hell just to do my work here....
[13:01] Whirly Fizzle: Simon, this person they are all having trouble with, she crashes the regions at large events unless she is paid money not to crash it. This same avatar is still not banned. Its not just the copybotting side of it.
[13:01] Tonya Souther: And Tan'k's exactly right: that you ahve a egitimate grievance still does not make this the place to deal with that grievance.
[13:01] Andrew Linden: I'm certainly interested in server crash modes.
[13:01] Steele Sirnah: thank you for your time Simon
[13:01] Merrick Genesis: but according to CA law, all you need for extortion to happen is for the message to be sent
[13:01] World Undercroft: and 5 months having her sell our stuff on marketplace
[13:02] World Undercroft: but whatevs
[13:02] Lucia Nightfire: it takes lawyers and money to get anythign done, period, RL or SL
[13:02] Tonya Souther: And it STILL does not give you the right to grief these meetings.
[13:02] PetraLAlexander: luckily SL is in Cali
[13:02] SD Damiano: why is she just not being banned through her isp no matter how many alts she has they all coming from one pc address area ect
[13:02] Steele Sirnah: again why not ban the avatar?
[13:02] Steele Sirnah: the name
[13:02] Steele Sirnah: purge it
[13:02] Steele Sirnah: get her marketplace down
[13:02] Ava Jhamin: ok once again done...but were not going away LL so do something or we will keep coming and we won't wait patiently until the last 10 minutes.....
[13:02] Ava Jhamin: bye all
[13:02] Simon Linden: ok, I'll make a deal ... who here thinks they're likely to see a crash like that soon?
[13:02] Rex Cronon: i see this as cry for help. not as griefing
[13:02] Tonya Souther: Andrew, it sounds like you might want to arrange to be around at the next event they threaten to crash.
[13:02] Andrew Linden: Hardware bans are not very effective -- easy to circumvent.
[13:02] World Undercroft: december 15th
[13:02] Simon Linden: .. and btw, if you know the AV, why aren't they banned?
[13:02] Merrick Genesis: Saturday
[13:03] SD Damiano: if she was hacking directly inot LL account then you would create riot but its the people using sl that are being robbed and violated
[13:03] Andrew Linden: So it becomes an arms race, really.
[13:03] World Undercroft: and also mimis show
[13:03] Qie Niangao: I see the hour is up, so: Thanks for your time, Lindens... have fun all.
[13:03] Ava Jhamin: raises hand
[13:03] Merrick Genesis: good question
[13:03] PetraLAlexander: You tell us
[13:03] PetraLAlexander: why they are not banned
[13:03] Merrick Genesis: why isn't she deleted or banned?
[13:03] Ava Jhamin: We see her to it every weekend
[13:03] Merrick Genesis: we've been asking that for months
[13:03] Steele Sirnah: that's what we want to know why isnt she banned
[13:03] Caffinelover Selona: who Ramonzita?
[13:03] Simon Linden: I need exact region name, time and names of any AVs you suspect
[13:03] Mimi Juneau: if you look into her avatar, you must find out that she's using a forbitten viewer
[13:03] Steele Sirnah: Sure i have a list of about 100 avatars
[13:03] Ava Jhamin: she will do to MVW on Saturday 99% sure
[13:03] NeoBokrug Elytis: File an AR, and a DMCA -- I assure you these things work. It just takes time.
[13:03] Steele Sirnah: that are her alts
[13:03] PetraLAlexander: We will hold you to your word Simon
[13:03] Merrick Genesis: not to mention all the extortion on her logs
[13:03] Ava Jhamin: so come on down invite all the lindens and let you see her in action
[13:03] SD Damiano: people are afaraid to go to shows incase she turns up and next thing your being sold on MP fill avatar
[13:03] PetraLAlexander: :)
[13:03] Lostnero: she can't crash the sim. the be honest if she want to crash the sim she needs to be in.
[13:03] Gamp Lane: I've been here over 5 years and spent tons of USD
[13:03] Mimi Juneau: there must be almost 600
[13:03] Tonya Souther: Mimi, it's dead simple to make a forbidden viewer look like a legitimate one.
[13:03] Steele Sirnah: i have group chats of group notices she sent openly admiting to copybotting the shapes and sending them
[13:04] Whirly Fizzle: Guys, you need avatar names and region names and times when she crashes them
[13:04] Sebastean Steamweaver: Mimi - the server only knows what the client tells it. The client can spoof itself to appear as any viewer it wants, really.
[13:04] Steele Sirnah: read flikker
[13:04] Rex Cronon: sim crashing not that hard
[13:04] Ava Jhamin: you are wrong she can and she does and she also does it through individual avi's
[13:04] Steele Sirnah: the chats are posted there
[13:04] Steele Sirnah: google ramonzita resident
[13:04] Mimi Juneau: we have all that info
[13:04] SD Damiano: she sends messages threthening to copybot for money what do you call that?
[13:04] NeoBokrug Elytis: Know what prevents region crashing? These guys, when we talk about the actual region crashing issues.
[13:04] Mimi Juneau: so does LL
[13:04] Merrick Genesis: extortion
[13:04] Caffinelover Selona: Ramonizta is steaky and very rude
[13:04] Jade Spectre: so tanya since ur a content creator, lets put u on her radar and after almost a year of her stealing your things, giving them away free and selling them as her own, and u report it over and over again with no recourse....we can see how u handle it
[13:04] Davido Chrome: This feels like a mob...
[13:05] Ava Jhamin: I sent andrew list of about 150 alts of hers
[13:05] SD Damiano: as a player of this game as a client of LL we want protection
[13:05] Ava Jhamin: check it out is all were asking
[13:05] Mimi Juneau: my sim will be crashed on Saturday at 2.10 slt
[13:05] SD Damiano: you owe us that much
[13:05] Tonya Souther: Go right ahead, Jade.
[13:05] PetraLAlexander: Mimi
[13:05] PetraLAlexander: laughs
[13:05] Mimi Juneau: ????
[13:05] Mimi Juneau: why?
[13:05] Ava Jhamin: hands LL a personal invite to Mimi's at 2:10
[13:05] Ava Jhamin: with orvile redenbacher popcorn
[13:05] Andrew Linden: How does ramonizita convey her extortion demands and threats? voice? chat? email?
[13:05] PetraLAlexander: Your sim is going to crash
[13:05] Merrick Genesis: chat
[13:05] Steele Sirnah: chat
[13:05] Belle Roussel: Ims
[13:05] Steele Sirnah: im's
[13:05] Caffinelover Selona: chat
[13:05] SD Damiano: ims
[13:05] Belle Roussel: i have them
[13:05] Ava Jhamin: in local
[13:05] Merrick Genesis: you have the logs
[13:05] SD Damiano: simple
[13:05] Steele Sirnah: or local chat
[13:06] Ava Jhamin: or personally she does.
[13:06] SD Damiano: you beens ent log
[13:06] Mimi Juneau: she send this out in my group chat
[13:06] Jade Spectre: actually i wouldnt put anyone thru what i've been thru the last 6 months
[13:06] Belle Roussel: i have sent them in my ARs
[13:06] Davido Chrome: Honestly, feels like a mob, all those abuse reports they talk about should have worked. I think it's more likely that they are trying to sic LL on someone they just don't like...
[13:06] PetraLAlexander: ah
[13:06] PetraLAlexander: got it
[13:06] Mimi Juneau: I sent abuse reports, time after time !
[13:06] Steele Sirnah: LOL davido
[13:06] Steele Sirnah: hahahaha
[13:06] Mimi Juneau: I'm so tired of this
[13:06] Steele Sirnah: ok its all our imagination
[13:06] Mimi Juneau: every day designers stop in SL
[13:06] Ava Jhamin: oh right Davido I am a busy woman please try again
[13:06] Jade Spectre: so have i mimi
[13:06] Steele Sirnah: talk to belle rousell here
[13:06] SD Damiano: alve seems like ll are protecting someone who maybe filling their pockets
[13:06] Mimi Juneau: give their sim back
[13:06] Whirly Fizzle: Davido, no, this is bad. these people here have just had enough. This has been going on a long time.
[13:06] Steele Sirnah: talk to ava jhamin
[13:06] Rex Cronon: if somebody crashes your sim u won't like them either
[13:06] Motor Loon: well, those duracell batteries sure are impressive - but gotta run back to work now....
[13:06] Ava Jhamin: you think 2,000 people are going to have a beef for one person just because OMG be real
[13:06] Davido Chrome: Aah. Ok.
[13:06] Lucia Nightfire: I have yet to see an account banned for copybotting since the IP policy was changed at teh beginning of this year
[13:07] Lucia Nightfire: and they most likely won't be
[13:07] Mimi Juneau: I bought a motor from you long time ago
[13:07] Mimi Juneau: sad that you don't understand us
[13:07] Jade Spectre: would u like more proof alvekatt? i mean the owner of bosl has been attacked over and over and complain...its not just a few models its the entire mvw pagent, every model in it and everyone
[13:07] Ava Jhamin: We had one gentleman who's account got stolen and she got away and it was an act of God to get him back on ......
[13:07] Mimi Juneau: I'll send Ramonzita
[13:07] Steele Sirnah: but simon what we have done to protect ourlsevs is close sims for shows to group only but sh has alts in thouse groups so still show sup and crasshes them
[13:07] SD Damiano: Alvecat you guys not willing to listen to us ehar us set up meeting with us but here you are defending someoen you know nothing about is she paying you?
[13:07] Steele Sirnah: that made it a little more difficult for her
[13:07] Jade Spectre: u can go to her marketplace or flickr and see my pic for sale she dont even try to hid eit
[13:07] Steele Sirnah: so she started iming the models as they were onstage
[13:07] Jade Spectre: "miss portugal"
[13:07] Ava Jhamin: I am telling you right now enough is enough and something will be done....Like I said I have reported to the FBI in Calif
[13:08] Tonya Souther: SD, we are NOT defending anyone.
[13:08] Steele Sirnah: and crashing invidivudal models
[13:08] SD Damiano: alve
[13:08] SD Damiano: so did
[13:08] SD Damiano: read up
[13:08] Steele Sirnah: so we set our prefereces now for shws that only friends can im us etc
[13:08] Tonya Souther: We are saying that you are in the WRONG PLACE>
[13:08] Ava Jhamin: and I know law and everything she has done is a felony
[13:08] Merrick Genesis: we have no place for this
[13:08] SD Damiano: like we here for eprsonal vendetta grow up
[13:08] Merrick Genesis: so here we are
[13:08] Davido Chrome: It's not like it can be proved though. Since you have to stream the content to the viewer to see the legit copies there is no way to tell if someone is using a viewer that doesn't encrypt the cache, or however they do it.
[13:08] Mimi Juneau: WE WANT THAT PERSON OUT OF SL
[13:08] Steele Sirnah: we have tried and continue to try to avoid the conflict
[13:08] Steele Sirnah: but we have reached the point there isn't much else we can do
[13:08] Whirly Fizzle: WEll, the Lindens here may ebe able to look into how the regions are being crashed
[13:08] Ava Jhamin: We are always well you know what...I will convey on every damn LL meeting until they do something about this..
[13:08] Steele Sirnah: the extortion is all over
[13:08] Ava Jhamin: we have taken in our own hands
[13:08] Tonya Souther: Thank youfor being a griefer, Mrs. Capalini.
[13:08] NeoBokrug Elytis: Ban them from your plots / regions?
[13:08] Ava Jhamin: and she is causing us money, time and loosing us money and I am done
[13:09] Steele Sirnah: we are all done Ava
[13:09] SD Damiano: how many million alts do we ban
[13:09] Steele Sirnah: that's why we are here
[13:09] Sebastean Steamweaver: Tonya - I don't think Mrs. Capalini is griefing. I understand where she's coming from.
[13:09] Mimi Juneau: nobody can stop her
[13:09] Lostnero: this person needs a IP ban..
[13:09] Mimi Juneau: it's a "him" btw
[13:09] Davido Chrome: Whirly, their claim may be legit, but I still maintain that we have a mob on our hands...
[13:09] Ava Jhamin: I have stayed under her radar and I don't say crap but if LL doesn't look into then we will be here at every meeting....
[13:09] Mimi Juneau: something russian
[13:09] Jade Spectre: if u guys wanna see for urselves who dont know go look up ramonzita and chaos company inc.....she isnt trying to even hide what she does she brags about it
[13:09] SD Damiano: instead of telling us measures we can take which i might add we have been taking why not do soemthing about it
[13:09] Tonya Souther: So do I. But that doe NOT excuse her threatening to disrupt every single channel LL has for communicating with residents.
[13:09] Steele Sirnah: I was told by LL they cannot IP ban her, she changes IP"S
[13:09] NeoBokrug Elytis: Wow, you guys are assholes if you do that.
[13:10] Steele Sirnah: I was told by LL they did not have the technology to do anything to her
[13:10] Ava Jhamin: you want to talk about your stuff but were a huge part of sl....and probably spend more money then any group pn sl
[13:10] NeoBokrug Elytis: Sorry, G region.
[13:10] Davido Chrome: Steele, and that is the truth.
[13:10] Sebastean Steamweaver: To be fair, Tonya, Mrs. Capalini and the rest waited till most of our discussion was over, so I don't think they intend to totally disrupt things.
[13:10] Vernes Veranes: Yeah, harassing other users will work against your goal.
[13:10] Mimi Juneau: like LL is protectiong her
[13:10] Davido Chrome: It's not like it can be proved though. Since you have to stream the content to the viewer to see the legit copies there is no way to tell if someone is using a viewer that doesn't encrypt the cache, or however they do it.
[13:10] Belle Roussel: its very disappointing to have to always log into such injustice ... designers and other put soo much time and work into thier SL lives.
[13:10] PetraLAlexander: There is always a solution to a situatio. Even though the IP rules changed, that doesn't override the TOS rules
[13:10] NeoBokrug Elytis: That doesn't mean you're entitled to do whatever you please.
[13:10] PetraLAlexander: one hand feeds the other
[13:10] Ava Jhamin: nods at Belle
[13:10] PetraLAlexander: and this isn't a resident vs resident issue
[13:10] Whirly Fizzle: They probably cant do much about the copybotting but the systematic crashing of regions - maybe.
[13:10] Vernes Veranes: I liked the "bad publicity" angle, LL might react to that and it puts SL back in the media.
[13:11] Tonya Souther: You're making it into one.
[13:11] Sebastean Steamweaver: To be fair, Tonya, Mrs. Capalini and the rest waited till most of our discussion was over, so I don't think they intend to totally disrupt things.
[13:11] Rex Cronon: they r not trying to harrass anybody. they r trying to get ll to help them:(
[13:11] Ava Jhamin: This is a major collapse of one of the largest industries SL has
[13:11] Merrick Genesis: ty Rex
[13:11] Ava Jhamin: do you get that......
[13:11] Steele Sirnah: Right Sebastean
[13:11] Tonya Souther: by harassing us and LL people with no power to do anything. Yeah, like that will work.
[13:11] Ava Jhamin: everyone wears clothes.....we just happen to do all the r4est
[13:11] Steele Sirnah: and thank you for that
[13:11] NeoBokrug Elytis: You don't seem to UNDERSTAND, that these aren't the people who can help you.
[13:11] Mimi Juneau: ok I will start again to twitter to the right places
[13:11] Merrick Genesis: who can help us Neo?
[13:11] Merrick Genesis: it seems Andrew is trying
[13:11] Vernes Veranes: This meeting only contains... janitors... to put it oddly.
[13:11] NeoBokrug Elytis: They're like, the janitors (really engineers) of LL
[13:11] Ava Jhamin: but it's huge so look into and let me or steele know when we can meet with LL ourselves....
[13:11] Steele Sirnah: Yes and its appreciated Andrew big time
[13:12] Whirly Fizzle: Guys, you may want to put your story over on this thread: http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/general-sl-discussion/79140-whats-about-extortion.html
[13:12] Merrick Genesis: why don't you not say he's helpless and see what he can do.
[13:12] Steele Sirnah: we have all been saving our chats
[13:12] NeoBokrug Elytis: File Abuse reports, and DMCAs.
[13:12] Ava Jhamin: yes it is andrew
[13:12] NeoBokrug Elytis: I know from people (and experience) they work.
[13:12] Steele Sirnah: and a few of us collect chats from everyone
[13:12] SD Damiano: yes we get that but it seems there is noone that can we need people from LL to sit up and take notice, you may not directly be able to help us but you can carry our voices to people who can
[13:12] Vernes Veranes: Neo: I think they did that
[13:12] Lucia Nightfire: I would like to see a public IP meeting every week, guaranteed to be hot debate there, heh
[13:12] Steele Sirnah: if you want specficis we have them
[13:12] Jade Spectre: it is not just the copying its constant harrasing
[13:12] Rex Cronon: they r not janitors. maintanance maybe. but not janitors. that is kind of insulting. don't u think so?
[13:12] Davido Chrome: Petra, stopping copybotting isn't technically possible with todays hardware. It doesn't matter how much you complain. It's the same thing as complaining about gravity... It's there, move to the moon, I hear it's better there...
[13:12] Jade Spectre: u mute her she gets an alt to im u
[13:12] Merrick Genesis: yes, it is
[13:12] Tonya Souther: Andrew is working on one specific aspect of it: the sim crashing. That's his job, to make sure sims don't crash.
[13:12] Jade Spectre: and on and on and on
[13:12] Simon Linden: only if you hold janitors in low esteem
[13:13] Tonya Souther: He can't do a blessed thinga bout harassment of extortion or copybotting.
[13:13] Ava Jhamin: it's not just copybotting she is bring down the whole industry
[13:13] Steele Sirnah: Andrew there is a big show this weekend, Mrs Virtual World
[13:13] Belle Roussel: but its not just copybotting .. its extortion and harrassment.
[13:13] Vernes Veranes: Rex: I know janitors, they would state that the notion of it being insulting... being an insult.
[13:13] Merrick Genesis: They have the ability to communicate in their company
[13:13] Steele Sirnah: what are the chances of you showing up or a Linden
[13:13] Steele Sirnah: to be there
[13:13] Steele Sirnah: to prevent attacks
[13:13] Jade Spectre: yes
[13:13] Steele Sirnah: she is extorting the show
[13:13] Ava Jhamin: she steels individual accounts and then messes with their spouce, takes nude pictures...it's wrong
[13:13] Ava Jhamin: it's ugly and IT NEEDS TO BE STOPPED NOW
[13:13] Mimi Juneau: we have to do the show, without public !!
[13:13] Lucia Nightfire: The community also needs to be more involved in bringing it to the attention of creators when their stuff is ripped, but sadly the involvement is lack luster at best.
[13:14] Ava Jhamin: no more playing nice we want it looked into.....
[13:14] NeoBokrug Elytis: Get some basic anti-virus. :P
[13:14] Caffinelover Selona: that will not be fair to others mimi
[13:14] Mimi Juneau: lolllll
[13:14] Davido Chrome: And now you are extorting our user group... In case that little detail escaped you...
[13:14] Jade Spectre: yes i dont see how one person can cause so much grief to 1000s of people in sl and nothing is done to them
[13:14] Tonya Souther: Exactly, Alve.
[13:14] Lostnero: Neo cant you please shut up your mouth.
[13:14] Steele Sirnah: we gave you your time
[13:14] Ava Jhamin: hardly please
[13:14] NeoBokrug Elytis: No
[13:14] SD Damiano: do we not have the right to play sl and enjoy ourselves considering we are putting in our OWN money? we are being violated from a simple thing as that why is noone listening and acting
[13:14] PetraLAlexander: what does anti virus have to do with that, Neo?
[13:14] Ava Jhamin: we pay lots of money here we deserve to be heard
[13:14] Steele Sirnah: its open forum we sat for 45 mins waiting our turn
[13:14] NeoBokrug Elytis: You guys came in and kind of sh*t all over this meeing making entitled demands.
[13:14] Vernes Veranes: I would STRONGLY suggest using a way to present your case in a manner that will WIN the public, not turn it against you.
[13:15] Tonya Souther: It's an open forum *about servers and scripting*, Steele.
[13:15] Lostnero: Yes neo and we will come BACK every meeting!!
[13:15] Merrick Genesis: okay
[13:15] NeoBokrug Elytis: And that's the problem.
[13:15] Mimi Juneau: ohhh no, we waited
[13:15] Jade Spectre: anti virus? she's using a non-sl viewer to copybot and harass people.....what is an antivirus gonna do?
[13:15] SD Damiano: VV where? how? why? we been trying for months
[13:15] Ava Jhamin: we have done all that we were told to do.....now we want action
[13:15] Tonya Souther: Thank you for being a griefer, Lost.
[13:15] Merrick Genesis: so, how can we make it so scripts can't be used to crash the show on Saturday?
[13:15] Ava Jhamin: 2 years she has been around
[13:15] Jade Spectre: the public is with us
[13:15] Ava Jhamin: do you get that 2 years
[13:15] SD Damiano: you give us name and date and place we will conduct in the best manner
[13:15] Simon Linden: well folks, I do not have anything to add to the conversation than what I've already stated. I encourage you to keep filing reports and document what happens. I'll see you soon at the next user group. Happy Holidays, everyone
[13:15] Jade Spectre: the public is who has been complaining for months
[13:15] Steele Sirnah: about 8 months we've reported and ar'd and dmca with no results this is our last resort
[13:15] Jade Spectre: the entire modeling community
[13:15] NeoBokrug Elytis: Take care!
[13:15] Lucia Nightfire: thanks Simon
[13:15] Vernes Veranes: use Whirly's offer: http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/general-sl-discussion/79140-whats-about-extortion.html
[13:15] Rex Cronon: tc simon
[13:15] PetraLAlexander: As humans behind a computer we have rights
[13:15] christianraven: thank you Simon
[13:15] Steele Sirnah: thank you Simon
[13:15] PetraLAlexander: not to be bullied
[13:16] Nalates Urriah: Thx Simon Thx Lindenes
[13:16] Ava Jhamin: if filing reports would get action we would of had 5 months ago....look at the reports
[13:16] PetraLAlexander: TY Simon
[13:16] Tonya Souther: Yes, Petra,a nd so do those you are threatening to grief at these meetingds!
[13:16] TankMaster Finesmith: have a good week, andrew, simon
[13:16] Ava Jhamin: and then we can go from there
[13:16] Steele Sirnah: Thank you Andrew :-)) appreciate being given the oppportunity to voice our concerns, see you at the next meeting
[13:16] Sebastean Steamweaver: I actually have to get back to work folks - Take care, and I hope everyone's day goes better
[13:16] Merrick Genesis: Thank you Andrew
[13:16] Ava Jhamin: we did no such thing we said we would come to all the meetings
[13:16] Mimi Juneau: see you all next meeting
[13:16] Yuzuru Jewell: Thank you Simon and Andrew.
[13:16] Steele Sirnah: thanks for coming yu guys see you at the next one <33333
[13:16] Rex Cronon: tc all those leaving
[13:16] christianraven: Bye bye all
Simulator_User_Group
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