Viewer Evolution User Group/Archive/2011-03-23

08:03 	Oz Linden  	Hi alll... sorry I'm late
08:04 	draconis.neurocam  	hello oz
  	Wolfpup  	Oz i have VC10autobuild working now for the most part on my system
  	draconis.neurocam  	oh wow vadim
  	FERRET  	hiya
  	Twisted Laws  	hello
  	TriloByte Zanzibar 	good morning
08:05 	Oz Linden  	Agenda is at https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_Evolution_User_Group
  	  	feel free to add to the end
  	  	STORM-809 Official Linux builds no longer built with c-ares support - causes big performance pauses
  	JIRA-helper  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-809
STORM-809 Official Linux builds no longer built with c-ares support - causes big performance pauses
08:06 	Oz Linden  	I left this on from last week to let you know that we think it's fixed in the autobuild branch
  	  	which will merge to viewer-development next week
  	TriloByte Zanzibar 	there are still pauses and stutters
  	Oz Linden  	well, there will always be more performance issues, but the big one that we think was most of the problem is fixed
08:07 	TriloByte Zanzibar 	I couldn't say exactly why, but it's definitely still happening as of 224836
  	Cummere Mayo  	k added oz
  	Oz Linden  	looking at your VWR issue, TB
08:08 	  	waiting for jira
  	Cummere Mayo  	or well i did add... wha
08:09 	TriloByte Zanzibar 	I posted another screen shot last night, the debug console is showing a diferent series of errors in place of LLObjectMedia errors now
  	Oz Linden  	have you tried this on the Project Viewer - VS2010 TriloByte?
08:10 	TriloByte Zanzibar 	no, I haven't had the time to do any of the project tests lately, that was from 224836 viewer development
  	Oz Linden  	right ... the fix (if it really is one) is not yet there... it is in the Project Viewer
  	  	see https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Downloading_test_builds
08:11 	draconis.neurocam  	hello wolf
  	Oz Linden  	which I think covers item #2 as well
  	TriloByte Zanzibar 	ah, I see. thanks for the link, will try and give it a go after the meeting this morning
  	Wolfpup  	Oz, Merov is having issues with the mac version of the client because of some new mac libs he thinks
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	hi Wolf
  	Wolfpup  	hey wolf
  	Oz Linden  	VWR-24731 add new changes in gpu_table.txt/support for new and recent GPU's (added by TriloByte Zanzibar)
  	JIRA-helper  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24731
VWR-24731 Add new and changes to GPU_Table.txt
08:12 	Oz Linden  	reading
  	TriloByte Zanzibar 	I know on the Mac side, the viewer doesn't recognize any system/GPU released since October 2010, and looking at the JIRA last night it looks like it's an issue for some of the newer Windows cards too
08:13 	Oz Linden  	I'm all in favor of a better way to deploy the GPU table.
  	  	source is actually not the right way, though - the real GPU table is read from a web resource now (the source is a fallback)
  	FERRET  	oh can someone find a compiler switch that gets rid of the majority of the compiler inserted hardware interrupts?
  	Wolfpup  	it is only because they are not added to the table the same for the cpu's
  	Oz Linden  	off topic people
08:14 	TriloByte Zanzibar 	right, but both are outdated, oz
  	Oz Linden  	yes, I know
  	FERRET  	no its not its relevent to compiling :P
  	Oz Linden  	I'll try to get a converesation started about how these updates can be done, and see if I can invite someone here next week about it.
08:15 	TriloByte Zanzibar 	excellent, thanks
  	  	if there's any research info that needs to be done (specs/info on newer cards, etc, let me know, I can probably get all that pulled fairly easily
  	Oz Linden  	that issue is now STORM-1100
  	JIRA-helper  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-1100
STORM-1100 Add new and changes to GPU_Table.txt
  	Oz Linden  	and mine
08:16 	  	that's great...
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	"yours"?
  	Oz Linden  	assigned to me so that I don't forget about it :-)
  	TriloByte Zanzibar 	get a newer machine, Oz?
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	ic
  	TriloByte Zanzibar 	ah ok, thanks
  	Oz Linden  	VWR-7677 Also STORM-761 Windlight (added by TriloByte Zanzibar)
  	JIRA-helper  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-761
STORM-761 As a SL developer, I want to help unblock development of Windlight Estate Settings code so that we can move forward with this feature development
  	  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-7677
VWR-7677 Estate / Sim Windlight preset / day cycle options
08:17 	Oz Linden  	I've got someone working on this on a private branch now
  	TriloByte Zanzibar 	sorry to keep asking, but people keep asking
08:18 	Oz Linden  	NO -- Keep asking!
  	  	I want this myself
  	TriloByte Zanzibar 	excellent. should you need people to test, I'm sure I can help rustle some volunteers, plus I'll work on carving out the time myself
  	Oz Linden  	in fact, the dev was testing it yesterday here and crashed this sim, so apparently it's not quite ready :-)
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	why on a private branch? (I guess private == not publicly visible/readable)
  	Cummere Mayo  	lol
  	Qie  	small price to pay. :p
08:19 	Oz Linden  	correct, boroondas
  	  	I can't get into why it's not open now, but it will be shortly
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	ok, thx
  	Cummere Mayo  	well when you get ready to test, im sure you might be able to talk the phoenix team into testing it for you mass scale oz its something we all want
  	Oz Linden  	I've got a meeting later today with my new boss, and this is on my list....
  	Cummere Mayo  	looks around for jessica
08:20 	TriloByte Zanzibar 	that's cool. I know there are a number of different bits and branches brewing internally, I look forward to seeing it bubble up
  	Wolfpup  	Oz yesterday i found an object over @ merovs office that had so many scripts in it that it might have been what was causeing problems her
  	oobscure  	(new boss = Bagman ?)
  	Oz Linden  	send me details by mail, Wolfpup
08:21 	  	Yes, Bagman
  	  	at least, I believe he's my new boss... formal change isn't effective yet
  	oobscure  	( presentation blog post by Bagman for those who didn't read it http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Featured-News/Hello-from-Bagman-Linden-the-New-VP-of-Engineering/ba-p/768215 )
  	Oz Linden  	He's visiting the Boston office this week, so other than my meetings I may be in world a little less than usual
08:22 	  	Anyway... I will leave the Windlight Estate Settings item on the agenda for next week too, and hopefully will have some good news for you by then
  	TriloByte Zanzibar 	great, thanks
  	Qie  	(off-topic: Hoping Bagman has a keep appreciation for the value of open source development)
08:23 	Oz Linden  	(me too
  	  	VWR-25260
  	JIRA-helper  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25260
VWR-25260 Ability to synch landmarks between alts on the same computer
  	Cummere Mayo  	reads the blog post quickly and can only think holy**** we have a legend ^^
08:24 	  	is that jira clear enough oz or want me to explain?
  	TriloByte Zanzibar 	(if anybody has a chance of wrapping their head around the challenges of concurrency & lag, it's the everquest guy :) )
  	Oz Linden  	Hmmm......
  	draconis.neurocam  	(most of the lindens have amazing backgrounds if you look into them on linked in or similar ive noticed)
08:25 	Oz Linden  	This is an interesting thought
  	  	My first reaction is that it probably is not really a viewer issue
  	Cummere Mayo  	syncking landmarks would be a server thing?
08:26 	Oz Linden  	I'd think that this would be just one aspect of a wider set of features that would be possible if there were an explicit relationship between alts
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	it could be done either purely viewer or purely server side
  	  	hmm ... general relationship: SVC-6212
  	JIRA-helper  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-6212
SVC-6212 Create Master Account Name, Linking to Avatar Names
  	draconis.neurocam  	it would be done by just the ability to export and import landmarks as well i would think, without adding alt relating functionality
  	Cummere Mayo  	ild like to avoid explicit alt relationships oz
  	Wolfpup  	i think it would have to be done server side with option setting viewer side
08:27 	Oz Linden  	Yes, that's true, but for example, if the service explicitly knew which avs were alts for the same underlying accounts, they could share L$, permissions, etc
  	Cummere Mayo  	jessica and i were discussing this, we could and would be intrested in doing this purely client side
  	Wolfpup  	because you have to share assets between the alts
  	Qie  	I'm wondering if Landmarks have a web-based future, in which case this might be done differently. (Although the asset is quite special for scripts, so wouldn't want them to get diluted.)
  	FERRET  	i thought it was kept seperate to minimise griefer alts passing stuff?
  	TriloByte Zanzibar 	careful though, sharing L$ balances could be both a good or a bad thing
08:28 	Cummere Mayo  	not everyone is keen on making alts explicitly linked oz
  	Oz Linden  	Thinking out loud here.... I don't think that there are any permissions on Landmark objects....
  	Wolfpup  	it would be best to kep them seperate and if you want an alt to have seomthing the drop it to them
08:29 	TriloByte Zanzibar 	perhaps a landmark dropbox folder
  	Cummere Mayo  	doing it viewer side would also allow syncing between roommates, and partners/spouces
  	draconis.neurocam  	not only are there not permissions on landmarks, but if i remember right the ability to prevent making them was turned off on the server i thought
  	Oz Linden  	I understand that, Cummere... I'm not suggesting that shared alts would be the only way to do it, just that if you had it then lots of cool things are possible
08:30 	  	(and bear in mind that LL has many ways of guessing which accounts are alts in any event)
  	oobscure  	Draconis: you can create landmarks of place X only if your avatar is in that place X - if that was you meant. I think Andrew recently confirmed this.
  	Cummere Mayo  	on the other hand you got lots of risks linking them.... i remember the days with some people really abused power and would ban accounts at will.... imagine how much WORSE that would be if accounts were expressly linked. or if LL was hacked again?
  	draconis.neurocam  	right, but there used to be a checkbox in the land options, to stop the ability to create them is what i meant opensource
08:31 	oobscure  	it's not a small limitation, but apparently not easy to work around either
  	  	ah ok
  	Oz Linden  	So let me ask this.... how do you share landmarks now?
  	Cummere Mayo  	box em and pass them
  	Oz Linden  	and what's bad about that?
  	Cummere Mayo  	only pracital way to do it if you have 1000+ landmarks
  	  	it takes FOREVER
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	a lot of help groups have notecards with embedded landmarks
08:32 	Oz Linden  	define forever... what takes time?
  	Cummere Mayo  	you can only transfer i think 34 to a box at a time
  	oobscure  	notecards with 100-200 landmarks only become hard to use and are not 100%% reliable. sometimes you can't save them.
08:33 	Oz Linden  	does anyone know where that limit comes from?
  	Cummere Mayo  	so moving 1000+ lms to a box takes litterlay hours
  	  	its an across the board asset limit
  	Oz Linden  	can you be more specific?
  	  	a limit on what?
08:34 	Cummere Mayo  	if you transfer any type or mix of assets to another avatar or to a box, you can only transfer around 34ish? at at time... otherwise you get a popup that says you have too many
  	Oz Linden  	ok....
08:35 	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	http://community.secondlife.com/t5/English-Knowledge-Base/Limits/ta-p/700099#Inventory
  	Oz Linden  	so suppose that limit were removed.... (hypothetically)
  	Cummere Mayo  	theres all kinds of reasons for the limit im told
  	Oz Linden  	thanks Boroondas
  	oobscure  	anyway .. these user cases seem to me .. a bit .. limited ? that is, maybe not many of us have to deal with moving thousands of landmarks?
08:36 	Oz Linden  	I'm pretty sure that with the new asset system, any limits that were a function of packet size could now be made _much_ larger
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	new =? http based?
08:37 	Oz Linden  	well, I'm wondering if the real issue is moving inventory items in general ?
  	draconis.neurocam  	i just made a box with 110 notecards, im going to log in an alt and try to transfer it
  	Oz Linden  	yes, the new inventory system is HTTP based
  	draconis.neurocam  	err
  	  	landmarks
  	  	not notecards
  	Cummere Mayo  	you can transfer that easy after you loaded it draconis
  	  	its loading it that takes time
08:38 	Tenyene Beaumont  	i have the same problem with textures, simply trying to put them in boxes trying to get them out of my main inventory
  	Qie  	it does seem more general than just landmarks
  	draconis.neurocam  	you said there was a limit though?
  	Cummere Mayo  	to transfer into the box
  	draconis.neurocam  	oh
  	Oz Linden  	and it takes a long time because you have to do them 30-something at a time?
  	draconis.neurocam  	thats what i misunderstood
  	Cummere Mayo  	yeah oz
  	draconis.neurocam  	the amount that can be added at once
  	  	alright that makes sense
  	Cummere Mayo  	i dont think i have quite a 1000 lms though i wouldnt be totally surprised if i did...
08:39 	  	but i do have at least several hundred on each of my more used avis
  	  	it affects more lms for me then anything else cause i have lots and lots of no xfer stuff
  	Oz Linden  	My understanding is that with the new asset system, any given folder will (for the time being at least) be limited to something like 10K items
08:40 	Wolfpup  	i have close to that if not more but a lot of them are dups
  	TriloByte Zanzibar 	I can't even comprehend 10k items loose in a single folder... gah!
08:41 	Cummere Mayo  	yeah folder size was never limited before
  	  	thats gonna.... hurt
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	10k direkt items or counting recoursively (i.e. including items in subfolders)?
  	Cummere Mayo  	lol
  	Oz Linden  	We've looked at some samples of what people have, and it's very very rare
  	Cummere Mayo  	including subfolders andrew said
  	Oz Linden  	no, onlly direct... a subfolder only counts as one item
  	Cummere Mayo  	wait they changed that then?
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	in that case, 10k is plenty
  	TriloByte Zanzibar 	if someone's got 10k in a single folder, they're likely already feeling a LOT of hurt in the current asset server system
  	Oz Linden  	that's my understanding
08:42 	Qie  	Oz's understanding is what I understood Andrew to have said, so... dunno.
  	Cummere Mayo  	trilo thats the price of being a merchant or a shopoholic in sl
  	  	>.>
  	Oz Linden  	yes, in the current system a 10K folder would almost never load reliably, and would take _much_ longer than in the new system even if it did
08:43 	TriloByte Zanzibar 	cummere, that's the price of being a poorly organized merchant/shopaholic. use folders, reduce asset server lag
  	  	and reduce instances where inventory disappears
  	Cummere Mayo  	well the largest inventory i have is currantly only 50k but then i have 2/3 of it still boxed
  	Oz Linden  	We're doing a lot of work on asset server lag...
08:44 	Cummere Mayo  	trilo i -am- semi organized... i still get extreme loss. ive lsot 10k items in the past year
  	Oz Linden  	There are two issues with loss....
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	In an ideal world, subfoldering would decrease lag as much as boxing
  	Cummere Mayo  	(real loss not percieved)
  	Oz Linden  	there probably are still cases of real loss.. .items that just go away due to some bug
08:45 	oobscure  	added an item to https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_Evolution_User_Group
  	Oz Linden  	but a more common problem at the moment is that in the UDP based system loading is unreliable, so it can appear that something is lost because it didn't load
  	  	but it's really still there in the asset system and might come back
08:46 	TriloByte Zanzibar 	right, and keeping an eye on folder bloat (single folder with thousands of items in it) can help reduce that tremendously
  	Oz Linden  	I'll leave this item on the agenda for next time too, and try to find out if perhaps we can change some of those limits
  	Cummere Mayo  	ive had them jsut disapear, refuse to rez and not show back up in inventory, and allot simply just corrupt past saving
  	Haravikk  	Oh, I'm very late today! I just wanted to raise that Ansariel Hiller has added a dead simple patch to VWR-20449, was hoping it could be added sometime
  	JIRA-helper  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-20449
VWR-20449 Using the -login parameter makes some keys and right click menus not work
08:47 	Oz Linden  	I'll come back to that Haravikk
  	Cummere Mayo  	but the other advantate this system has is that you can share with roomates and stuff easily even if youre unable to log in at the same time, or one of you is gone... without having to worry about them not getting the request
  	Oz Linden  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24764
  	JIRA-helper  	VWR-24764 Make parcel_media_agent_command and similar request user permission
  	Haravikk  	k, is hopefully just an import and apply job
08:48 	Cummere Mayo  	the other linked jira is probably better oz
  	  	since the other one is the one that has a patch
  	  	but they are related
  	TriloByte Zanzibar 	VWR-25062
  	JIRA-helper  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25062
VWR-25062 Add the ability to allow or deny domains that parcel owners want to play in the viewer's media and audio players
  	Oz Linden  	I've built a test viewer for that and sent some feedback to Tonya... have not heard back yet
  	Cummere Mayo  	tonya/simone's patch does land media only right now
08:49 	  	we'd alsolike to see the moap too
  	Oz Linden  	I don't know yet whether we'll take some version of that... it's on my list to get diiscussed internally
  	  	yes, I understand that, Cummerre
  	Haravikk  	Would it be possible to have such media interaction occur using the HTML-on-prim style hover widget? Rather than lots of ordinary pop-ups, you could just allow by selecting a button over the affected object(s)
08:50 	Cummere Mayo  	aww okay ... i know soft has asked about it too
  	Qie  	If you need ammunition for that discussion... there will be Media Privacy kiosks... it will be, uh, unfortunate if the only thing they can say for the Linden viewer is to just turn media off and leave it off.
  	Oz Linden  	One of the challenges of media filter is figuring out a UI that meets the need but isn't too disruptive
08:51 	Cummere Mayo  	honestly i think every main tvp is putting media filters in
  	Oz Linden  	I don't need any ammunition, thanks :-)
  	Qie  	(sorry)
  	Cummere Mayo  	at least i havent heard of one thats not yet
08:52 	  	has been testing some of them for differant teams
  	Oz Linden  	Anyway... about all I can say about that at the moment is that it's very much on my radar
  	  	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-2085
  	JIRA-helper  	VWR-2085 Ctrl-Alt-F1 Hide/Show UI Incompatible with Linux
08:53 	Oz Linden  	We've got a big issue with keyboard shortcuts ... I'll get this linked to it
  	oobscure  	thanks
  	Oz Linden  	In the end, it's kind of hopeless to avoid all possible conflicts
08:54 	TriloByte Zanzibar 	ideally it'd be nice to be able to remap
  	  	on the user end
  	Techwolf Lupindo  	Why even hard code it? Shouldn't there be keymaps files?
  	Oz Linden  	I think the ultimate answer is to allow shortcuts to be configured, but I don't know what the current thinking from the UX team is....
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	we need to namespace key combos :-D (wait, no, that might not be a good idea)
  	oobscure  	unfortunately looking for an optimal solution delayed an easy resolution to this
08:55 	TriloByte Zanzibar 	true, it would be nice for linux users to have that functionality. I can't imagine trying to shoot machinima without it
  	Twisted Laws  	i have a process question
08:56 	Oz Linden  	If you're happy with one of the answers in that jira, and it doesn't create some new conflict, and you'll package it properly for STORM review, I'll get that pulled in, opensource
  	Adasyd Lang  	uses an XBox controller and Total Game Control for Machinema :3
  	Oz Linden  	process questions properly belong at my meeting later today.... let's deal with the issue Haravick had....
08:57 	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	what makes VWR-2085 different from other conflicting shortcut issues, is that you cannot easily have a point-and-click workaround to turn the UI back on
  	Oz Linden  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-20449
  	JIRA-helper  	VWR-20449 Using the -login parameter makes some keys and right click menus not work
  	Haravikk  	I raised it before, theorising it might be an issue with when the menus are initialised, turns out the edit menu only initialises properly if the login screen is display
08:58 	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	ouch
  	Cummere Mayo  	ooh nasty
  	Haravikk  	Ansariel Hiller added a patch to the issue with a fix, it's only a single line that needs moved up to be outside of an if-statement
  	Jonathan  	I can convert that patch to a repo unless someone else wants to
  	draconis.neurocam  	the keys are referenced in app_settings/keys.xml for anyone interested
  	TriloByte Zanzibar 	sounds like a potentially easy fix/win
  	Oz Linden  	that would be great Jonathan
08:59 	  	I'll move to STORM and assign to you
  	Jonathan  	k
  	Cummere Mayo  	if it doesnt break anything that sounds like an aweseome thing to pull in
  	Haravikk  	Thanks Jonathan!
  	Cummere Mayo  	grins... "can you find us some more one line fixes now haravikk?
  	Haravikk  	I wish =P
09:00 	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  	I have one for OPEN-39, but that's build related, thus OT here
  	JIRA-helper  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-39
OPEN-39 (standalone) bitpack_test.o: No such file or directory
09:01 	Haravikk  	Although VWR-18521 might be, is another command line issue
  	JIRA-helper  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-18521
VWR-18521 Texture Memory (MB) preference refuses to set above 128mb
  	Oz Linden  	I'm moved that to STORM-1101 and assigned to JY
  	JIRA-helper  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-1101
STORM-1101 Using the -login parameter makes some keys and right click menus not work
  	Jonathan  	ok, I'll work on it this afternoon
  	Oz Linden  	finding easy fixes is very good, and you should all appreciate that Jonathan is the master of moving them through the process
09:02 	  	maybe I should have him give classes.....
  	Cummere Mayo  	believe me oz... I do
  	  	lol
  	  	even when he has me try and imput the fixes myself
  	  	(though that tends not to work out so well)
  	Oz Linden  	My time is up, and I've got a busy day.... I will be at my other meeting this afternoon