Open Source Meeting/2010-04-29

== Transcript ==
[14:01]	 	terrible typing today...
[14:02]	:	I haven't updated the agenda this morning but I guess you saw the nice news
[14:02]	:	all of parabuild SG builds now work :)
[14:02]	:	\o/
[14:02]	:	we have now a 1.x and 2.x trunks buildable
[14:03]	:	that should help make progress on everything
[14:03]	:	I can't wait turning back to that looooong backlog of patches and start committing like a maniac :)
[14:03]	:	:-D
[14:03]	:	that'll sure feel nice
[14:04]	:	to celebrate, I updated the current 1.4 release notes : https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Snowglobe_Release/1.4
[14:04]	:	nice :)
[14:05]	:	so, yeah, plenty to do now with patches, if you are a committer, please go ahead : it's open season right now :)
[14:05]	:	can you skip some? :P
[14:05]	:	skip what?
[14:06]	:	some patches that already exist in 1.4
[14:06]	:	?
[14:06]	:	slip the review or skip the commit?
[14:06]	:	*skip
[14:06]	:	i think you said, now was the time to apply all snoglobe 1.x patches to 2.0
[14:07]	:	a ok, confusion: I was speaking of 1.x patches to apply to 1.4
[14:07]	:	no, apply patches in jira to svn (for the branch they apply/where made for)
[14:07]	:	*were
[14:07]	:	ah
[14:07]	:	then, sure, I'd like folks to port them to 2.0
[14:07]	:	I got a few patches in jira that need commiting.
[14:07]	:	ah ok, sorry i was confused :)
[14:07]	:	if they feel inclined to
[14:07]	:	which I hope they will
[14:08]	:	one thing I think I should do is spend some time reviewing the "building the viewer" wiki page
[14:08]	:	Including that finished a bad port of the mine midea fix.
[14:08]	:	I've all that fresh in my mind so that's the time to put that down in writing
[14:09]	:	then I need to work on this "branding script" we talked about some time ago
[14:09]	:	so that TPV can rebrand safely, without running afoul of the TPVP
[14:10]	:	Should we first write down the current istructions or first re-organize the the wiki page structure? (Currently, build instructions are scrattered all over the place)
[14:10]	:	and then, yes, merging back 1.x patches to 2.0 as you said Latif
[14:10]	:	We should re-organize the pages
[14:10]	:	Would you like to lead that effort Boroondas?
[14:11]	:	Dunno, got a semester thesis to finish :-P
[14:11]	:	details... :)
[14:11]	:	But I can kick of a diskussion on the mailing list.
[14:11]	:	OK, yes, please do that
[14:11]	:	About the semester thesis?
[14:12]	:	I'll be happy to jump in
[14:12]	:	clarification: I won't help you on your semester thesis :)
[14:12]	:	first step would probably be to collect links to all the current pages
[14:13]	:	I was referring to your "details ..."
[14:13]	:	When I was working on patch finishing that port. I was thinking on how to do that branding issue. I went though three different irtation though my mind and ended up with a devolope --branding "nameofproject" and have devolope.py handle the three differenct cases of branding, secodnlife, snowglobe, and "emerald". :-)
[14:13]	:	o right, I was being facetious (as in "that's a detail... :) )
[14:13]	:	oh, right :-P
[14:13]	:	I'm sure it's quite a bit of work
[14:13]	:	I think a "building from source" category in the wiki might help
[14:14]	:	Techwolf: I like the idea of a --branding option
[14:14]	:	to develop.py
[14:14]	:	note that there is more than just a name in branding
[14:15]	:	logos also, may be specific URLs (for Help)
[14:15]	:	About bo
[14:15]	:	*box
[14:15]	:	Though, ultimately we should seperate client and grid name. (Currently it's possible to get told you aren't able to connect to snowglobe, which doesn't make sense)
[14:16]	:	Viewer and grid name are separate though
[14:16]	:	in the messaging
[14:16]	:	I was looking at all the "mapping" commands in viewer_manifest.py and was thinkning of adding a thrid one there, but that would end up being a maintance nightmare as each tpv would still have to do some patching. So a --branding to devolope would set the bin name, icon name, and other variables as need before configure cmake and just pass those values onto viewermanifest.py
[14:16]	:	may be some messages are using the wrong strings though
[14:16]	:	We really need a proper login manager for snowglobe, that handles grids, login URIs helper URIs and provides flags for enabling/disabling things that may be LL speicific such as map tiles from S3
[14:16]	:	then grid name etc could be taken from that
[14:17]	:	Robin, yes!
[14:17]	:	the current "remember user" hack is driving me mad
[14:17]	:	interesting idea...
[14:17]	:	About porting 1.x patches to 2.x: Should we still have to have someone else than the person doing the porting review?
[14:18]	:	I think doing code review is good, even for port
[14:18]	:	it doesn't have to be me or a linden doing reviews though
[14:18]	:	any committer could
[14:19]	:	I saw you did Thickbrick for some patches
[14:19]	:	yes
[14:19]	:	well, we have 3 non-linden commiters, and one of them (Aleric) is sort of on hiatus
[14:19]	:	but wait: are you talking about small patches from 1.x? may be starghtforward ones?
[14:20]	:	I did look over and reviewed a few patches, but i'me not commiter.
[14:20]	:	yes
[14:20]	:	we need more commiters
[14:20]	:	definitely
[14:20]	:	hmmm... I see what you mean Thickbrick... you're right: there's certainly a set of patches we should commit "switftly"
[14:21]	:	we need to answer the questions of some want to be comitters who asked months ago about the CLA
[14:21]	:	that'd be me
[14:21]	:	CLA?
[14:21]	:	yeap
[14:21]	:	Contributor License Agreement
[14:21]	:	Oh, I am on that list.
[14:21]	:	you've yours on file I think Techwold
[14:22]	:	the other side of having 2.0 is that we can be less conservative when committing to 1.x, since that's not going to be ported to another tree anymore.
[14:23]	:	well... I'm worried of transforming the 1.x tree in a sort of super experimental advanced version...
[14:23]	:	is that a good idea?
[14:23]	:	Yea, after I tested my webkit plugin hack, I was going to submite a hack for 1.x branch with the convet that sence LL is not going to pull anything, we can commit some ugly/pretty hack to that branch. :-)
[14:23]	:	how about just making it the best choice of those who don't wish toi use 2.0?
[14:24]	:	I have been thinking of SG1.4 as a "fallback version" for people that are not ready to deal with Viewer 2 yet.
[14:24]	:	Gooden: yeah, but that's a different thing
[14:24]	:	define "best"
[14:24]	:	+1 Leslie
[14:24]	:	1.32 is pretty good, i like it a lot :)
[14:24]	:	SG1.x is used as a "base" for almost all TPV right now
[14:25]	:	is that already so?
[14:25]	:	so it's better be stable and solid IMP
[14:25]	:	IMO
[14:25]	:	I think a lot are still based on 1.22 mainline
[14:25]	:	but yes, the "fallback" idea is just fine
[14:25]	:	point taken, Merov
[14:25]	:	(not even 1.23)
[14:25]	:	Merov, I think most of the patches submitted for the 1.x branch have that goal in mind.
[14:26]	:	good, I should so a triage pass on 1.4 JIRA and set a date for release
[14:26]	:	would be nice to have some things for more advanced users, like an account/login manager
[14:26]	:	when other viewers fail, especially for builders, snowglobe operates well
[14:26]	:	and a wold map that works for more than a single gird (agni)
[14:26]	:	doesn't even work for aditi
[14:26]	:	let alone opensim grids
[14:26]	:	glad to hear people use Snowglobe as a reference :)
[14:26]	:	SNOW-77 needs some love...
[14:26]	:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-77[#SNOW-77] S3 map shows main grid map even when on the beta grid
[14:27]	:	did i mention that hard coding urls is bad? :P
[14:27]	:	ah.... that one is something...
[14:27]	:	Latif, that could part of the branding project.
[14:27]	:	yeah right but... replace by what?
[14:27]	:	cap?
[14:27]	:	Are Aditi tiles also on S3 just not being refered to by the viewer?
[14:27]	:	the grid should know where it's map is
[14:27]	:	the discussion of it on sldev drifted into abstract protocol discussion pretty quickly, so the actualy bug was left behind
[14:28]	:	sure but that's not what I had in mind
[14:28]	:	Merov, a flag. Eiether use the 1.23.5 way of maps, or use S3 maps.
[14:28]	:	if (grid == agni) display_fancy_merov_map() else display_legacy_gridlayer_map();
[14:28]	:	Latif: the problem is that the legacy code is all gone...
[14:28]	:	Well, jhurliman said he's ready to implement it on opensim, as soon as there's some defined viewer behaviour he can work with.
[14:29]	:	I guess I could tweak the code so that the mimapping is just not used
[14:29]	:	I'me in emerald and I still is getting maps.
[14:29]	:	Correct map on aditi though?
[14:29]	:	emerald is using 1.23 maps
[14:29]	:	Jonathon, no, only agni map works
[14:29]	:	I think the map on aditi is wrong too
[14:29]	:	in sg and viewer2
[14:29]	:	old code gone? isn't that what SCM is for?
[14:30]	:	SCM?
[14:30]	:	ah svn
[14:30]	:	yeah
[14:30]	:	I'll paste my comment form SNOW-77, if anybody can answer: A suggestion: have the capability return a string to be processed by Recursive URL Substitution Syntax? Or does that opens the door to the same kind of risks an untrusted format string does? (It seems the C++ implementation of RUSS is not actually recursive.)
[14:30]	:	or is the old code incompatible to new surrounding code?
[14:30]	:	Boroondas:yes true but having both living together is bloat and ugly
[14:31]	:	well it could be as simple as using the class from 1.23, just give it another name (append Legacy) and instantiate appropriate one
[14:31]	:	that's not a solution appealing
[14:31]	:	Merov, yes it is bloat and ugly, but not working map is uglier :P
[14:31]	:	(RUSS = http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Recursive_URL_Substitution_Syntax )
[14:31]	:	the clean solution would involve server side chanches
[14:31]	:	*changes
[14:32]	:	Borondas, both
[14:32]	:	both viewer and server
[14:32]	:	as it is written now, the new map assumes you're on agni, doesn't know about anything else
[14:32]	:	I think we need both: viewer side using cap and server side knowing where its map is
[14:32]	:	could be the "Time bandit" project (where's the map?)
[14:33]	:	lol
[14:33]	:	hmmm... It's a good project and certainly something I'd like to get OpenSim folks ideas in
[14:33]	:	so we get something compatible
[14:34]	:	I think having the viewer use current (hardcoded agni http map) behavior if some new capability is missing is very doable, and allows the server side implementation to come later
[14:34]	:	but it's more than a viewer side quick fix
[14:34]	:	(unless you go for the ugly quickfix - legacy map) :P
[14:34]	:	Note: Wed Jan 6 15:19:59 PST 2010 Eddy Stryker commented:What is the status on this? Is this patch going into Snowglobe 1.3? The server side can't be implemented until we have a capability name and message format locked down.
[14:35]	:	IIRC, OpenSim has a collection of tiles also on some servers
[14:35]	:	yes but it works the old way with gird layer messages
[14:35]	:	you request tiles via uud
[14:35]	:	uuid
[14:35]	:	can't you put them on some http server?
[14:36]	:	would actually help with load on OpenSim server
[14:36]	:	is there any documentation
[14:36]	:	there is!
[14:36]	 	digs
[14:36]	:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Map_API
[14:37]	:	From Eddy's (John Hurliman) comment, I think this would be easy to do on opensim, but the capability needs to be defined first.
[14:37]	:	Boroondas, that's for google maps javascript api
[14:37]	:	not what the viewer expects
[14:37]	:	yeah, just noticed
[14:38]	:	but there was something about the plain texture's URL's scheme on the wiki, too
[14:38]	:	Boroondas beat me apparently
[14:39]	:	ah, here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Map_API #Accessing_map_images_directly
[14:39]	:	well, it does have the info on how the map tiles are structured
[14:39]	:	that's all the implicit knowledge the viewer needs
[14:39]	:	that plus the URL for the base
[14:40]	:	Merov, my point is that it would make sense for the url structure to be determined at runtime, by the url returned by the sim's map capability.
[14:40]	:	Is there currently a map scanner/tile generator for aditi like there is for the main grid?
[14:41]	:	Jonathan: I don't think there is
[14:41]	:	for example, in the future it might be http://map.secondlife.com/map/Z/X/Y/objects/image.jpg
[14:41]	:	the mapserver process is not run on aditi (as I know of)
[14:41]	:	Thickbrick: you want to use some template for the URL itself?
[14:42]	:	I think that would make sense
[14:42]	:	this url structure is pretty rigid
[14:42]	:	indeed
[14:42]	:	remember, pre-http there were two tile-sets, ground-only and ground with objects
[14:43]	:	it's true but, as long as we stay in a 2D organization of the regions, any strucuture is going to be congruent to that and so very close
[14:43]	:	for the sake of implementation, would a patch that implementes MapUrlPrefix debug settings be acceptable, later the same var can be plugged from a cap, or login response
[14:43]	:	Is Z meant to be a map layer selector?
[14:43]	:	all the combination of X, Y, Z and object and possible but that's not super interesting IMO
[14:44]	:	Z is for zoom level
[14:44]	:	if the server returns a template, that can be worked into Gayeda's patch pretty easily.
[14:44]	:	(not height)
[14:44]	:	Latif: I think so.
[14:44]	:	but that's just a half-measure.
[14:44]	:	Would be nice to have a layer selector in the spec even if LL doesn't intend to provide multiple map layers.
[14:44]	:	more like a graph (network)
[14:45]	:	how do you represent such a map?
[14:45]	:	Thick, yes, but it would allow an OpenSim dev to change the prefix and work on implemeting the feature
[14:46]	:	how well do debug settings cope with multiple sessions at the same time?
[14:46]	:	Poorly
[14:46]	:	we don't really have an alternative.
[14:46]	:	k, well, I think we should keep SNOW-77 open for discussion for sure
[14:47]	:	it's something we need to get right, but letting it hang for so long might be worse than getting t wrong.
[14:47]	:	yeah
[14:47]	:	let's get it right incrementailly :-)
[14:47]	:	true, implementing some cap to get the URL is a first stopgap measure
[14:48]	:	so gayeda's patch + debug setting for default fallback url?
[14:48]	:	something like that, I'd like to read that patch though before saying "yes"
[14:49]	:	before we part, Thickbrick mentioned SNOW-586
[14:49]	:	I'm not sure if the way I did the patch for 2.0 there will land me in UI hell or not
[14:49]	:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-586
[14:49]	:	[#SNOW-586] Add option to align textures across (planar-mapped, co-planar) faces
[14:50]	:	I have been useing that some.
[14:50]	:	People watch me and ask how to do that. :-)
[14:50]	 	smiles
[14:50]	:	This is a noce one really
[14:50]	:	*nice
[14:51]	:	Only suggestion I have is can you prevent attempts to use it when faces are not coplanar?
[14:51]	:	I remember reviewing the 1.4 patch and giving it thumbs up
[14:51]	:	specifically, I mean this snapshot: http://jira.secondlife.com/secure/attachment/38742/SNOW-586_viewer2_ui.png
[14:51]	:	can't you just make the floater some bigger?
[14:52]	:	then you can disable controls but still display them
[14:52]	:	Oh, I didn't notice you reviewed the 1.x patch Merov
[14:52]	:	didn't I?
[14:52]	 	checks again
[14:52]	:	People already bitch about that tool window being too big.
[14:52]	:	The loss of the More button still irks some.
[14:53]	:	it's larger in 2.0, and I'm scared of doing far-reaching changes to XUI
[14:53]	:	Yeah: comment March 25
[14:53]	:	cool
[14:53]	:	I just mentioned some UI issues
[14:53]	:	Objects: 0, Prims: 1....
[14:53]	:	:-P
[14:53]	:	heh
[14:54]	:	it's a stand-allone prim, not part of any object and not being one itself
[14:54]	:	1.23.5 blanked objects count when working on less than a link member.
[14:54]	:	It's one of those that's worth committing and see how people react to it
[14:54]	:	1.23.5 blanked object count when working on a link single member.
[14:55]	:	So what do guys think about having a control that magically disappears unless you have the right prim selected?
[14:55]	:	*what do you guys
[14:55]	:	BAD!
[14:55]	:	Blender-like bad, or just not nice?
[14:55]	:	Disappearing controls are bad.
[14:55]	:	I prefer "gray out" (as in "not available in that context")
[14:56]	:	Disappearing leads to confusion. Confusion leads to hate. Hate... leads to the dark side!
[14:56]	:	Lots of space above the mapping listbox.
[14:56]	:	Beside Fullbright
[14:56]	:	also, repeats per meter can make sense for planar mapping, too, no?
[14:56]	:	so move above "Mapping"?
[14:57]	:	the "Repeats / Meter" is greyed out in planar, since the regular UV scale controls do that already in planar mode.
[14:57]	:	oh, wait, there's repeats per meter and per face ...
[14:57]	:	hm
[14:57]	:	Repeats per Meter "moves up".
[14:57]	:	ic
[14:58]	:	per face is missing when planar ... kinda makes sense
[14:58]	:	I like the example image but don't know how others will react.
[14:59]	:	ok, the current UI is already confusing, renaming controls depending on mapping
[14:59]	:	it applies only when planar is selected, right?
[14:59]	:	Also, are we ever going to have more mapping methods?
[15:00]	:	Gotta run, take care all
[15:00]	:	"Atlasable" should be added. ;-)
[15:00]	:	so the point about disappearing controls is well taken - I'll try to find another place for it that can gray-out, not hide.
[15:00]	:	there's stub code in llface.cpp for cylindrical and spherical mapping.
[15:00]	:	Yes, I see that.
[15:01]	:	I always vote for keeping things that depend of each other close visually so that "graying out" is not too jarring when it happen
[15:01]	:	and you get a clue as to what to click to make it change
[15:01]	:	actually, when you currently select "Planar" you see "Repeats Per Meter" twice, one of them greyed out
[15:02]	:	other than that, I don't have enough mileage on that UI to make super useful proposition
[15:02]	:	I do like the feature though, it seems super hard to do that without that option
[15:02]	:	[Default, Planar, Planar Aligned]
[15:02]	:	In the list box?
[15:03]	:	The edit tools flaoter port to 2.0 looks a little bit unfinished, so I'm assuming we'll see another edition of it eventually, and have to merge that.
[15:03]	:	so +1 in having that in 1.4 and 2.0 :)
[15:03]	:	Thickbrick: I think so
[15:03]	:	I think it's getting put into the sidebar.
[15:04]	:	Ardy, I'm not sure about that, since that confuses prim properties with UI properties.
[15:04]	:	k, it's 3pm folks
[15:04]	:	Thickbrick, okay
[15:04]	:	I need to run , thansk for the discussion
[15:04]	:	have fun Merov
[15:05]	 	typing *really*terrible today
[15:05]	:	cheers! :)
[15:05]	:	in "Default" mode, why do I have to click "Apply" to set Repeats/Meter? That's not a too costly calculation, so we could do it "life", couldn't we?
[15:06]	:	See you all later. I'me going over to http://slurl.com/secondlife/Pooley/219/67/76 for beta offie hours. It was move to maingrid.
[15:06]	:	I think the "apply" button is there to prevent accidents
[15:07]	:	actually, I think there should be seperate per-meter controls for u and v
[15:07]	:	there is - planar mode
[15:07]	:	those could be placed right next to the per face fields
[15:08]	:	(where the flip is now, putting the flip somewhat more to the right)
[15:09]	:	oh, and a toggle to lock or release u:v ratio, like any decent graphics app has
[15:10]	:	speaking of any decent graphics app: we need drag/rotate/scale handles for textures
[15:10]	:	for faces, rather
[15:10]	:	I've found bugs in the latest webkit media plugin ;-/
[15:10]	:	That might be trickier
[15:11]	:	Robin: in the plugin code, or llqtwebkit?
[15:12]	:	http://slurl.com/secondlife/Pooley/219/67/76
[15:12]	:	plugin code
[15:12]	:	the big ugly if else block for one has missing elses in media messages
[15:12]	:	Latif just demonstrated why a browser-like adress bar is not such a bad thing...
[15:13]	:	Ardy, crashing?
[15:13]	 	is BRBing
[15:13]	:	and porting the latest 2.0 code back results in no media, but debugging gets unknown messages in the log , slghtly older 2.0 code works perfectly
[15:13]	:	Nah, tried to get into Aditi but still no good.
[15:13]	:	Off to http://slurl.com/secondlife/Pooley/219/67/76
[15:14]	 	wonders what's hapening in Pooley
[15:16]	:	beta office hours, if I understood corretly
[15:17]	:	oh, they moved it to agni?
[15:17]	:	Yeah, Aditi was firewalled until about 3 minutes ago.
[15:18]	:	ugg, I'm wearing a completly different outfit in 2.0 than in 1.4
[15:18]	:	:-P
[15:19]	:	Welcome to the wonderment of V2
[15:21]	:	did the ok and cancel button switch places in 2.0?
[15:21]	:	I can't remember, but I keep hitting cancel
[15:21]	:	Try again?
[15:23]	 	waves
 
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