FOSDEM/PGDay 2020 Developer Meeting

A meeting for PostgreSQL developers will be held in conjunction with the PostgreSQL Europe FOSDEM Devroom
and FOSDEM/PGDay 2020 events in Brussels, Belgium. The meeting is planned for January 30. In order to keep the meeting focused, productive, and with a high level of interaction, the meeting is invite-only. Due to the large developer community, we cannot invite every active contributor. If you feel that you, or someone else, should've been invited then please contact Daniel Gustafsson.
This is a Community event, organized and financed by PostgreSQL Europe.
== Time and Location ==
The meeting will be held at the Hilton Brussels Grand Place Hotel, which is the venue where FOSDEM PGDay 2020 is arranged the day after on January 31. The meeting starts at 9AM and is scheduled to end at 5PM. Coffee, tea and snacks will be provided during the day, as well as lunch.
== Attendees ==
The following hackers have RSVP'd to the meeting and will be attending:
* Joe Conway
* Dmitry Dolgov
* Peter Eisentraut
* Andres Freund
* Stephen Frost
* Daniel Gustafsson
* Magnus Hagander
* Bruce Momjian
* Julien Rouhaud
* Tomas Vondra
* Vik Fearing
* Devrim Gündüz
* Álvaro Herrera
* ..more TBA
The following hackers have been invited but are unable to attend:
* Andrew Dunstan
* Kyotaro Horiguchi
* Alexander Korotkov
* Tom Lane
* Amit Langote
* Noah Misch
* Thomas Munro
* Michael Paquier
* Peter Geoghegan
* Jeff Davis
* Masahiko Sawada
* Simon Riggs
* Andrew Gierth
* John Naylor
* Heikki Linnakangas
* Robert Haas
* Christoph Berg
* Dave Page
== Suggested Topics ==
Please add topics for discussion to the list:
* CI build feedback/information directly in CF app (Daniel)
* Update from packagers (Devrim)
* Report from SQL working group (Peter)
* CoC committee report (Vik)
* The future of this devmeeting and FOSDEM PGDay (Magnus)
* Commitfest triage
== Agenda ==
Time 	Item 	Presenter
09:00 - 09:15	Welcome and introductions 	Daniel
09:15 - 09:45	Report from SQL working group 	Peter E
09:45 - 10:15	The future of this devmeeting and FOSDEM PGDay 	Magnus
10:15 - 10:30	CoC committee report 	Vik
10:30 - 11:00	Coffee break 	
11:00 - 11:30	Update from packagers 	Devrim
11:30 - 12:00	CI build feedback/information directly in CF app	Daniel
12:00 - 12:30	Overflow slot, other topics 	All
12:30 - 13:30	Lunch 	
13:30 - 15:00	Commitfest Triage 	All
15:00 - 15:30	Tea break 	
15:30 - 16:45	Commitfest Triage 	All
16:45 - 17:00	Any other business, plans for next year 	Daniel
17:00 	Finish 	
== Minutes ==
(minutes by Peter Eisentraut)
Attendees:
* Joe Conway
* Dmitry Dolgov
* Peter Eisentraut
* Vik Fearing
* Andres Freund
* Stephen Frost
* Devrim Gündüz
* Daniel Gustafsson
* Magnus Hagander
* Bruce Momjian
* Julien Rouhaud
* Tomas Vondra
(Álvaro Herrera was registered but did not attend.)
=== Report from SQL working group ===
Peter gave report from activities in SQL working group:
* SQL/MDA was published. Some people were interested in learning more.
* current schedule: SQL:2021 in July 2021
* could align this with PG14
* will contain new JSON data type, integration with existing PG functionality to be determined
* otherwise most focus is on GQL and SQL/PGQ (graph database)
* There will be a committee draft (CD) soon, opportunity for feedback.
Anyone with questions can contact Peter.
Question about streaming: It is being talked about in SQL WG, but it's not likely in SQL:2021.
=== The future of this devmeeting and FOSDEM PGDay ===
 magnus: Do we want to keep the dev meeting, PGEU is happy to keep it if wanted.
 magnus: Change to unconference?
 stephen: Should we discuss that at the end of the day?
 peter: It would be nice to have a dev space at each conference.
 andres: This meeting dooesn’t have quorum to decide anything.
 stephen: People wanted to make the PGCon dev meeting longer.
 stephen: PGCon meeting format was changed last year, most people seemed pleased with the outcome.
 stephen: Who should be invited? Do we all need to stay all day?
 peter: Open up the invitation, with a formal call for participation. Using the PGEU conference system
 seems possible.
 bruce: Is it a set of committee reports, is it a steering meeting, what is the format?
 magnus: We could dial in people as necessary (patch authors).
 magnus/stephen: Should different dev meetings have different focus?
 [Lots of discussion around last year’s PGCon invitation list. Most
 people had concerns about how the change was intransparent and done
 too late, not necessarily with the way the meeting turned out.]
 peter: Run it like a conference, with an org committee.
 stephen: We then still have to decide what the purpose of the meeting is.
 tomas: There should be a formal group and formal criteria of how people are invited, it has to be transparent
 and public.
 [lots of more discussion]
Action: Stephen will gather a committee (Vik and Andres also
volunteered, and he will ask Dave Page) to be in charge of the meeting
in a public way.
coffee break
=== CoC committee report ===
Vik reporting
* CoC 1st anniversary
* Vik and Lætitia stepped down to rotate in new members
* new: Carole Arnaud, Umair Shahid
* one active investigation
* plan for 2020: develop guidelines for conference organizers
 bruce: Has the committee considered whether the committee itself turned out beneficial?
 vik: Not specifically but there has been informal feedback that the existence makes people feel safer/better.
 bruce: The committee makes it easier to introduce diversity into the community.
 [various discussions on the nuances on the CoC process and committee, also about having external people on the
 CoC committee]
 stephen: feedback: There are communication/handover problems between sysadmins, core, CoC committee.
(follow-up discussion: Bruce will take up the last item.)
=== CI build feedback/information directly in CF app ===
at 11:30 Thomas Munro was dialed in from New Zealand
 daniel: Integrating cfbot into commit fest app would take workload off CFM.
 thomas: It runs on FreeBSD with jails and ZFS, how to move to pginfra (Debian).
 [Thomas seemed happy for pginfra to take over the hosting of this.]
 [Some discussion on the technical details. Both Stephen and Thomas and the rest agreed that it's doable.]
Action: Stephen will set up VM, Thomas will port to Debian, Magnus will also participate.
 thomas: There is limited capacity on the free tiers of Travis and AppVeyor.
 [discussion about getting sponsorship for paid tiers.]
 daniel: curl project gets free capacity from AppVeyor.
Action: Stephen will reach out.
 andres/peter: We should commit .travis.yml etc. into core. Peter will follow up.
=== Update from packagers ===
Devrim reporting
* He wanted to define a process for communicating with packagers, but didn't get it done yet.
* Getting extensions ported to new major versions is a significant problem. The packager is usually the person users end up complaining to.
 devrim: perhaps a meeting with extension authors (pgcon, pgconfeu), make sure extensions are up to date with
 new majors
 devrim: doesn’t want to ping people; should have a status page of some kind
 should we kick out extensions from packaging that are not updated to major releases? — doesn’t fix the problem,
 users are still left unable to upgrade
lunch
 [packaging continued]
 devrim: wants to find a better way to communicate with extension authors
 peter: maybe a wiki page about which extensions are updated
 peter: Christoph [Berg, Debian packager] appears to have the building automated and sends bug reports to
 extensions.
 devrim: Even if the bugs are fixed, no updated versions are formally released.
 magnus: maybe test extensions against master continuously
Devrim will talk to Christoph about being more efficient.
=== Contributors recognition team ===
Vik reporting
This team was launched based on last year's meeting
FOSDEM/PGDay_2019_Developer_Meeting. The team consists of Vik,
Stephen, Dave Page, Robert Haas.
 vik: feels not heard, disputes about recognizing not just code contributions
 stephen, vik: Team is not effective. Team cannot get agreement on what the rules are.
 peter, vik: Remove the contributors list on the web site altogether.
 andres, daniel: This list gets people jobs.
 vik: Make it just developers?
 stephen, magnus: We should have a list of team members on web site.
 vik: doesn’t want to be on the committee
 stephen: Committee requires unanimity to decide anything.
 stephen: The committee has no guidance what the rules should be.
 peter: I thought the committee was supposed to decide the rules.
 bruce: We need to decide whether to do it right or remove all non-code contributors.
 peter: Core team needs to take up action; give policy guidances to committee.
Action: Core team to decide on contributor recognition rules and give that to the committee to implement.
 more discussion on putting a list of teams on the web site, fed from mailing list memberships
 Do we need to ask for consent? Do we want to show that for all teams?
 Will we require real names? -- That's a different discussion.
tea break
=== Commitfest Triage ===
Bruce reporting on transparent data encryption (TDE)
 bruce: TDE having calls every two weeks (Bruce, Joe Conway, HighGo, others), email thread had too many
 contributors with limited understanding
 bruce: We will produce green field patches, for PG13 key management system only.
 bruce: Wiki page is up to date: https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Transparent_Data_Encryption
 tomas: thread is confusing, need to reduce scope
 andres: concerned about system impact
 bruce: https://commitfest.postgresql.org/26/2196/ is current
 various discussion on technical details
 andres, others: Wiki page should be cleaned up and actual implementation plan added for review by hackers.
The meeting then reviewed some other patches in the commitfest app.
=== other ===
 peter: thoughts on release management team?
 andres: last year team had no time zone overlap, bad
 peter: thoughts on PG12 release quality?
 andres: we need better (not necessarily more) tests
 try codecov.io (make available in cfbot?)
 add a “Tests” topic to cf app
 about this meeting: do it again
 andres: maybe consider splitting up into groups, could be done in the same room
minutes ended 17:10
Category:Developer Meeting