Open Source Meeting/2008-08-28

* [14:02] Carjay McGinnis: Hello Rob
* [14:02] Squirrel Wood: ^^
* [14:02] Rob Linden: hi folks
* [14:02] Squirrel Wood: And there we have a soft linden ^^
* [14:02] Carjay McGinnis: greetings Soft
* [14:02] Soft Linden: Hey hey!
* [14:03] Squirrel Wood: and we are outlindened again :p
* [14:03] Carjay McGinnis: so we got Rob, Q, Nyx, Soft, but no Triage Monday
* [14:03] Rob Linden: std disclaimer: the transcript for this meeting will be posted on wiki.secondlife.com.
* [14:03] Soft Linden: Monday a holiday?
* [14:03] Soft Linden: Looks like yes - wild!
* [14:03] Michelle2 Zenovka: sounds like a plan
* [14:03] Nyx Linden: yep labor day
* [14:03] Rob Linden: US Labor Day
* [14:03] Soft Linden: I don't get why we don't labor on a day with a name like that.
* [14:04] Nyx Linden: I don't either, but I'm not complaining
* [14:04] Rob Linden: Slacker Day
* [14:04] Rob Linden: alrighty, well, let's get started
* [14:05] Rob Linden: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source_Meeting/Agenda
* [14:05] Rob Linden: Requesting textures via CAPS, any servers currently testing this. Any other info the lindens can provide on its deployment. Michelle2 Zenovka 02:14, 28 August 2008 (PDT)
* [14:05] Michelle2 Zenovka: Oh behalf of Gareth
* [14:05] Soft Linden: I'm not familiar with this - is there a JIRA?
* [14:05] Nyx Linden: caps?
* [14:05] Q Linden: capabilities
* [14:05] Rob Linden: well, there's the beta grid
* [14:05] Nyx Linden: ah
* [14:06] Michelle2 Zenovka: does the beta have this enabled?
* [14:06] Rob Linden: not sure. is the issue that the protocol changed?
* [14:06] Soft Linden: Is this the texture over http thing, or something else?
* [14:07] Michelle2 Zenovka: no the http stuff is not enabled in the viewers its commented out code
* [14:07] Carjay McGinnis: yes, texture over http, think Gareth is coming in now
* [14:07] Soft Linden: Wanna skip to the other issue while we wait for Gareth?
* [14:07] Michelle2 Zenovka: Yea come back to it
* [14:07] Rob Linden: k. next up:
* [14:07] Rob Linden: What can we do about an appropriate "forum" (used in the general sense) to allow discussion of policy/licensing etc to stop it exploding on #sldev into a circular discussion with no end in site and no agreement. Things routinely get out of control and wiki/jira etc pages does not seem to quell the fire at all. Michelle2 Zenovka 02:18, 28 August 2008 (PDT)
* [14:08] Rob Linden: well, here's the scoop:
* [14:08] Rob Linden: we really need to keep sldev@ from being the department of lost puppies here
* [14:08] majnoon Planer: you need a forums host ??
* [14:09] Gareth Ellison: excuse my partial ruthing
* [14:09] Kiosk: SL: Open Source General Info whispers: Thank you! Your items will be delivered to you soon!
* [14:10] Rob Linden: the Lindens who are on sldev@ are not always the best conduit to people that aren't
* [14:10] Michelle2 Zenovka: yes agree totaly
* [14:10] Rob Linden: Per the mailing list policy: "This mailing list is for discussing problems and ideas that software developers can directly address and for collaboration on solutions and improvements, not for turning Linden Lab development staff into proxies to reach other parts of Linden Lab (e.g. legal, executive, human resources, etc). "
* [14:11] Soft Linden: Actually - crazy question. Has anyone ever asked legal if they want to create a space for this, or where they wish it would happen?
* [14:11] Soft Linden: I don't think there are many other disciplines where we'd spend a lot of time creating homes for things on their account.
* [14:11] Rob Linden: Well, yes, I've actually relayed this to the Legal dept in the past. the conduit for reaching them is licensing@lindenlab.com
* [14:12] Rob Linden: now, that may not be the forum people want to use
* [14:12] Rob Linden: however, talking about improving that is also not on-topic on sldev@
* [14:12] Michelle2 Zenovka: Is it worth having a seperate mailing list for "policy" discussion? or will that just be the same circular discussion has happens now on sldev
* [14:12] Soft Linden: Well, the key difference is group versus individual discussion on that.
* [14:13] Michelle2 Zenovka: no but we need to deal with this as it is happening now on sldev
* [14:13] Soft Linden: True :)
* [14:13] Rob Linden: same circular discussion
* [14:13] Nyx Linden: most of the issues that have been flooding the list are enough in the future that it seems they would be discussing internally and chewing it over for a while as opposed to responding within a reasonable timeframe to individual inquiries
* [14:13] Rob Linden: GTeam has several policy venues
* [14:13] Soft Linden: Well, some of the ones flooding the list are also quarterly repeaters.
* [14:14] McCabe Maxsted: what about putting somethign on teh JIRA? there's already a few policy-related jiras on there already
* [14:15] Rob Linden: McCabe, that's not great (because the policy makers don't go there), but it's better than sldev@
* [14:15] Soft Linden: Perhaps the next time this repeats, we should actually get a Linden in legal to be the one to invite people over to a JIRA.
* [14:16] Soft Linden: Us pushing someone away sends a different message than someone in legal giving a pull, and would make people more expect to be seen in the other place, vs sldev which might be the only place they're getting responses.
* [14:16] Carjay McGinnis: indeed, that would be a good idea, I think
* [14:16] Q Linden: legal types rarely want to speak in public, though.
* [14:17] Michelle2 Zenovka: they don't need to commit, just some thank you for your comments type responses to show they are there and listening
* [14:17] Carjay McGinnis: right
* [14:17] Carjay McGinnis: and of course respond to individual requests per their email
* [14:18] Rob Linden: so, how many of the people complaining have actually sent mail to licensing@ ?
* [14:18] Michelle2 Zenovka: i've had good exchanges with Licencing
* [14:18] Michelle2 Zenovka: achieved something too
* [14:18] Soft Linden: If it's anything like the abuse report vs group IM discussion ratios - not many :)
* [14:19] Carjay McGinnis: well, you probably didn't just complain, you had valid questions
* [14:19] McCabe Maxsted: doubts the repeat complainers have
* [14:19] Rob Linden: yeah, exactly. we had a poor track record in the early days, but I think it's much better now
* [14:20] Soft Linden: I can add a note to the internal meeting agenda about this if we want to move on
* [14:20] Michelle2 Zenovka: Well yes, i think softs idea is a good one and if it works it could solve this issue
* [14:20] Soft Linden: Sounds like something to explore with some Lindens who aren't here/arent open sourcers.
* [14:20] Rob Linden: I literally had on the order of a dozen private emails with someone (who will remain unnamed) who steadfastly refused to send mail to licensing@ more than once
* [14:21] Carjay McGinnis: well, we just don't want people to be put off the list because of these circular discussions that lead nowhere
* [14:21] Michelle2 Zenovka: no and they get personal quickly too
* [14:22] Squirrel Wood: perhaps send a reminder to stay on topic and contact information for various issues ?
* [14:22] Soft Linden: There are usually half a dozen of those, Squirrel :)
* [14:23] Rob Linden: should I be firmer in enforcing the list policy?
* [14:23] Squirrel Wood: any way to mute the whiners for a given time? (a.k.a. moderate their mails before they go out)
* [14:23] Rob Linden: yup
* [14:24] Carjay McGinnis: hm, not sure I'd like sldev to become moderated
* [14:24] Rob Linden: ok....so, licensing issues to licensing@, other stuff to the forums or other office hourse
* [14:24] Carjay McGinnis: if that's what you're suggesting
* [14:24] Rob Linden: Carjay: there's per-person moderation
* [14:24] Carjay McGinnis: ah, right, I remember
* [14:24] Michelle2 Zenovka: i think a cooling off is fine
* [14:25] Rob Linden: k. let's move on
* [14:25] Rob Linden: (unless there are other questions)
* [14:25] Michelle2 Zenovka: no sorry to bring it up but i think we needed to deal with it once and for all
* [14:26] Rob Linden: been there, done that ;-)
* [14:26] Michelle2 Zenovka: shedules it in again for 6moths time
* [14:26] Carjay McGinnis: hehe
* [14:26] Rob Linden: moving back to the postponed item: Requesting textures via CAPS, any servers currently testing this. Any other info the lindens can provide on its deployment. Michelle2 Zenovka 02:14, 28 August 2008 (PDT)
* [14:26] Gareth Ellison: i apologise for this, but gotta logout to deal with some issues
* [14:26] Michelle2 Zenovka: Gareth...
* [14:26] Rob Linden: doh!
* [14:26] Gareth Ellison: err, might stick around for this one
* [14:26] Gareth Ellison: or not
* [14:26] Gareth Ellison: (don't ask)
* [14:27] Gareth Ellison: long story short, i had my viewer compiled which was requesting the HTTP textures
* [14:27] Gareth Ellison: but no sim to test in
* [14:27] Soft Linden: This was enabling the existing http request code?
* [14:27] Rob Linden: just doesn't know enough about the protocol changes to comment on which versions should have it
* [14:27] Soft Linden: Do you know of a JIRA for the http texture delivery mechanism? I don't know if that's being deployed, or was just concept
* [14:28] Gareth Ellison: i'm not aware of a JIRA on the issue, should file one
* [14:28] Gareth Ellison: but from what i can tell, neither the beta grid or agni has that CAP
* [14:28] Michelle2 Zenovka: probably an idea
* [14:28] Soft Linden: Sure. If you do that, we can punt it over to core - they should be able to give an update on that effort
* [14:28] Gareth Ellison: the code in lltexturefetch.cpp is fairly easy to fix
* [14:28] Soft Linden: Right. I think about 3 quarters back, it was done as a proof of concept.
* [14:29] Q Linden: yeah...although my recollection is that this is concept work
* [14:29] Gareth Ellison: soft - it was actually DONE or not?
* [14:29] Gareth Ellison: as in, viewer downloaded all textures over pure HTTP?
* [14:29] Gareth Ellison: if so, the idea would be to port that into the current codebase
* [14:29] Nyx Linden: I'm seeing a number of internal JIRAs on the issue....just a sec, scanning over them
* [14:30] Carjay McGinnis: it sounds like a good idea
* [14:30] Soft Linden: A rough was done. I don't know if it was secure or complete.
* [14:31] Soft Linden: I'm starting to remember now that this was done in Icehouse when Zero was in charge there. So asking at AWG could be productive
* [14:31] Gareth Ellison: what were the security issues? fetching from outside the viewer?
* [14:31] Carjay McGinnis: right, think Saijanai mentioned this before
* [14:31] Gareth Ellison: because of course there's that delightful caps proxy thing and short-lived caps
* [14:32] Soft Linden: I'm saying I really don't know. The implementation I know of was a single day project, not designed in advance, never through QA. A JIRA or a query to Zero should bring you much closer to someone with an answer. :)
* [14:32] Gareth Ellison: i think i'll file a JIRA then
* [14:32] Gareth Ellison: might submit the patch i have
* [14:33] Gareth Ellison: got to logout rather urgently here, apologies to all.....
* [14:33] Soft Linden: Nyx found an internal issue - that links back to VWR-217 - you could start exploring from there.
* [14:33] Rob Linden: hopefully Gareth reads the transcript
* [14:33] Michelle2 Zenovka: The http texture code has been in the viewer source commented out for as long as i can remeber
* [14:34] Rob Linden: this is something that would be totally fine to highlight on sldev@ as well as filing/finding in JIRA
* [14:34] Carjay McGinnis: there is or was even an entry in the debug menu
* [14:34] Soft Linden: Looks like some of the internal concerns are bandwidth control related for one. Those are the sort of details that shake out over QA, which this hasn't had.
* [14:35] Carjay McGinnis: "Rendering/HTTP Get Textures"
* [14:35] Carjay McGinnis: well, it would be a nice thing to play with
* [14:35] Soft Linden: Are we off the last agenda item already?
* [14:36] Rob Linden: yup
* [14:36] Carjay McGinnis: afraid so
* [14:36] Rob Linden: anything we should talk about here? http://jira.secondlife.com/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa?mode=hide&requestId=11240
* [14:37] Soft Linden: One other item that came up at the sustaining engineering team's meeting today was grouping related patches in JIRA.
* [14:37] Soft Linden: I'll make a note on sldev as well, but this was done with the joystick issue and helped Tofu get a ton of patches through in quick order, and will make QA much more productive on that batch since it localizes what they test.
* [14:38] Q Linden: +1
* [14:38] Soft Linden: If any of you know of other pools of related patches and issues wanting attention, it would be *great* to create meta issues and link the related patches and bring those to attention on-list.
* [14:38] Rob Linden: oh, Tofu incorporated a bunch of joystick patches?
* [14:38] Soft Linden: Yup! The set you asked to be linked up - joystick issues with patches - that just became too shiny and candy-like to resist. And he doesn't even use the joystick normally. :)
* [14:39] Carjay McGinnis: hehe
* [14:39] Nyx Linden: he grabbed a bunch today - I was about to do the same :P
* [14:39] Rob Linden: what are likely areas to tackle next?
* [14:39] Q Linden: that's why we're askin'
* [14:39] Soft Linden: Ha - if it's tempting Nyx as well... I'd say that's a good argument for trying to create more pools of related issues/patches like that.
* [14:39] Nyx Linden: what areas have multiple bugs that are getting annoying?
* [14:40] Soft Linden: So please do keep it in mind, or nudge others in the direction of aggregating if it comes up in discussion.
* [14:40] Rob Linden: skims the list
* [14:40] Michelle2 Zenovka: i've got to find this memory corruption, its the one issue that still drives my nuts
* [14:41] Carjay McGinnis: viewer's been pretty stable recently
* [14:41] Nyx Linden: corruption?
* [14:41] Carjay McGinnis: most crashes were self-induced
* [14:41] Michelle2 Zenovka: i still get the odd double free and friends
* [14:41] Michelle2 Zenovka: something is overrunning an array somewhere
* [14:41] Rob Linden: that's definitely a good bundle to make, though those will end up being all over the place
* [14:42] Carjay McGinnis: well, we need a patch first...
* [14:42] Rob Linden: chat/IM seems like one area that has a few
* [14:42] Rob Linden: vwr-1484
* [14:42] Rob Linden: vwr-1274
* [14:42] Michelle2 Zenovka: I've got linden interest in my bulk permissions patch now too. I need to follow that one up
* [14:42] Rob Linden: VWR-3060
* [14:42] Carjay McGinnis: yeah, and a patch to increase the group limit ^^
* [14:43] Rob Linden: heh...good luck writing that Carjay! :)
* [14:43] Carjay McGinnis: hehe
* [14:43] Rob Linden: i18n?
* [14:44] Soft Linden: I would so love to have that, Michelle2. I made a piano the other day - 64 note samples, one permission dialog after another...
* [14:44] Nyx Linden: group limit is server-side isnt it?
* [14:44] Carjay McGinnis: hehe
* [14:44] Rob Linden: here's the open patch list, sorted by component: https://jira.secondlife.com/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa?reset=true&&status=1&status=3&status=4&customfield_10002=Patch+attached&sorter/field=customfield_10000&sorter/order=ASC&sorter/field=customfield_10020&sorter/order=DESC&sorter/field=components&sorter/order=ASC
* [14:44] Thickbrick Sleaford: you're asking about just areas with pathes, or areas with lot's of bugs filed?
* [14:44] Nyx Linden: both
* [14:44] Soft Linden: With patches, or with clear very well defined bugs.
* [14:45] Michelle2 Zenovka: which can be grouped
* [14:45] Soft Linden: I think that's the best way to focus it. Basically, something where a dev could sprint on something for a week or so and get a lot of coverage in a small area.
* [14:45] Nyx Linden: I know I spent a couple weeks a while back working on camera bugs - worked out well
* [14:45] Q Linden: the point is we're not just saving time by staying in one area of the code
* [14:45] Thickbrick Sleaford: there's stuff going on with glow and friends in snapshots...
* [14:45] Q Linden: we're also saving time writing test plans, running qa, and in integration
* [14:46] Soft Linden: Right. Coding is only about a third of the work done for most changes. But thankfully, the rest of the work can be consolidated.
* [14:46] Rob Linden: worries that the amorphous ask of "group stuff" won't result in something happening
* [14:46] Soft Linden: To date, we've been dealing with patches individually and I think that's part of the slowness in pulling them in.
* [14:47] Soft Linden: Right. Any refinements right now would be great.
* [14:47] Rob Linden: I'm going to suggest that we pick something now. (say, i18n)
* [14:47] Soft Linden: With patches, or with clear repros seems like a good start for batchable stuff.
* [14:47] Rob Linden: ....and then rally volunteers to help group that one thing
* [14:48] Rob Linden: does i18n sound like a good start? or perhaps chat/IM?
* [14:48] Nyx Linden: or avatar bugs - there are a few out there
* [14:48] Q Linden: I'd rather see us focus first on a localized area of the code like chat/IM
* [14:48] Michelle2 Zenovka: chat/Im sounds good
* [14:48] Q Linden: rather than something like i18n which can be spread out
* [14:48] McCabe Maxsted: what about ui patches?
* [14:48] Q Linden: (first)
* [14:49] Carjay McGinnis: thought chat/IM involved both server and client?
* [14:49] Nyx Linden: depends on the issue
* [14:49] Carjay McGinnis: at least the really annoying cases
* [14:49] Rob Linden: chat/IM it is
* [14:49] Rob Linden: ok....someone want to file the meta issue right now?
* [14:49] Rob Linden: (or should we just use component?)
* [14:50] McCabe Maxsted: for example say patching the xml files; I've submitted a few of those
* [14:50] Rob Linden: we have a component after all
* [14:50] Soft Linden: I'd rather a meta issue for these.
* [14:50] Michelle2 Zenovka: the meta will be a filtered bunch
* [14:50] Soft Linden: We can create batches that are tied to a specific work branch, and we can rightly call individual batches "done."
* [14:51] Soft Linden: It would also be helpful to be able to discuss why issues are/aren't included on the meta.
* [14:51] Nyx Linden: easier to hand of a group to QA at once
* [14:51] Rob Linden: ok. let's actually get something filed now then
* [14:51] Nyx Linden: *off
* [14:51] Rob Linden: (so that everyoe knows what the issue is).
* [14:51] Rob Linden: I'll file it now
* [14:51] Rob Linden: is filing
* [14:52] Soft Linden: Cool - if you want, I'll post to sldev about that specific issue and summarize what we talked about
* [14:52] Q Linden: Awesome
* [14:52] Rob Linden: k....the issue is here: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-8808
* [14:53] Rob Linden: ladies and gentlemen: start you linking
* [14:53] Soft Linden: grins
* [14:53] Carjay McGinnis: yeah
* [14:54] Nyx Linden: if this goes well, might we consider doing this on a regular basis, so we can get a pipeline of meta-issues for us to import more frequently?
* [14:54] Soft Linden: Yup, that would be the goal.
* [14:55] Soft Linden: It's working well with joystick - if it works well with this, we've found a good way to unstick patches.
* [14:55] Rob Linden: just added a handful ot the issue
* [14:55] Soft Linden: And hopefully we'll look back and laugh at how silly we were to do one-off imports.
* [14:55] Rob Linden: hoorah
* [14:56] Carjay McGinnis: hehe
* [14:56] Michelle2 Zenovka: As a side benifit it makes it easier for me to pull patches into my builds, for all the same reasons
* [14:56] Q Linden: w00t! this makes me happy
* [14:56] Soft Linden: Anyway. That was to soak up half an hour so that pJIRA query Rob linked could load.
* [14:57] Rob Linden: ok...well, we're about out of time. anything else before we go?
* [14:58] Rob Linden: going once....
* [14:58] Rob Linden: twice....
* [14:58] Nyx Linden: sold!
* [14:58] Rob Linden: okee dokee. thanks everyone!
* [14:58] Carjay McGinnis: hehe
* [14:58] Squirrel Wood: uldo n u 'x plq s pu ' l 'ouu no 'u no x u p u no ouunp 
* [14:58] Carjay McGinnis: thanks everyone
* [14:58] Soft Linden: Thanks for coming, all
* [14:58] Carjay McGinnis: wow
* [14:58] Carjay McGinnis: awesome
* [14:58] Carjay McGinnis: *that* is possible?
* [14:59] Soft Linden: Is that Austrialian i18n?
* [14:59] Squirrel Wood: Yes!
* [14:59] Carjay McGinnis: hehe
* [14:59] Rob Linden: ossm
* [14:59] Home: Going: to home
* [14:59] Squirrel Wood: Have a great day!
* [14:59] Nyx Linden: its something that I can't display properly...I smell a bug