Mesh/Archive/2012-02-27

==Agenda==
# Can Linden provide an up-to-date and complete mathematic algorythm for streaming/physic/render weight cost? Includes the exact values of each constant variable and their meaning, please. (Info on wiki seem to be out of date.) [Vincent Nacon]
# Could the team comment on convex hull collision type being applied to non-mesh linksets as a means of reducing land impact? (such as regular or sculpted prims). Is it advisable to do so and is this behaviour likely to be nerfed in the future? [Aki Shichiroji]
# Why has autoreturn on Mesh Sandboxes 3 and 4 been set to one minute, rendering them useless for anyone except the owner. [Drongle McMahon]
# VWR-28416 was duplicated into SH but then disappeared from there. What does this mean? [Drongle McMahon]
# How will the new TPV policy changes affect the Mesh Deformer project? Will the Mesh Deformer code have to be added to the official Linden Viewer first before it can be added as a feature in a Third Party Viewer? [Ashasekayi Ra]
==Meeting Notes==
==Attendees List==
*Aki Shichiroji (aki.shichiroji)
*An Babii (an.babii)
*Asha (ashasekayi.ra)
*Bubbalicious (bubbalicious.chauveau)
*Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)
*ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)
*DJ Funizza (dj.funizza)
*Drongle McMahon (drongle.mcmahon)
*Geenz Kitten (geenz.spad)
*JIRA-helper (jira-helper)
*Jonathan (jonathan.yap)
*Medhue Simoni (medhue.simoni)
*Mikki Miles (mikki.miles)
*Nal (nalates.urriah)
*Nyx Linden (nyx.linden)
*davep (runitai.linden)
*Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi)
*Tiberious Neruda (tiberious.neruda)
*Vincent Nacon (vincent.nacon)
*Vir Linden (vir.linden)
*Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)
==Transcript for Monday February 27, 2012==
[11:58]	Nyx Linden 	agenda as always is http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group
[11:58]	Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi) 	It's a Charlar.
[11:58]	Aki Shichiroji 	Hi Charlar
[11:59]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Hola Charlar
[11:59]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	howdy!
[11:59]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Hello Asha.
[11:59]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Heya Yuzuru :)
[12:00]	Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi) 	Hm, Charlar isn't fully rezzing for me.
[12:01]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	I think this is the first time I have seen his arms rez correctly.
[12:01]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	I'm in DOlphin3 and I can see Charlar's hands, feet, and head.
[12:01]	Bubbalicious (bubbalicious.chauveau) 	yeah same here, hes only got 1 foot.
[12:01]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	Is dolphin3 'modern'?
[12:01]	Aki Shichiroji 	He looks fine to me.
[12:01]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	as I would call it?
[12:01]	Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi) 	Hey Runitai.
[12:01]	Mikki Miles 	and where's the heart?
[12:01]	Aki Shichiroji 	(V3 here)
[12:01]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Looks fine to me as well
[12:01]	Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi) 	Charlar - I'm on viewmaster (one of your builds).
[12:01]	Aki Shichiroji 	Also, Hi to all the newcomers :)
[12:01]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	Stop staring at me!
[12:01]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	lol
[12:01]	Geenz Kitten (geenz.spad) 	stare harder >:C
[12:02]	An Babii 	lol
[12:02]	Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi) 	Hey Vir.
[12:02]	Vir Linden 	Howdy
[12:02]	Aki Shichiroji 	Hi Runitai, Vir :)
[12:02]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	ok, one more minute
[12:02]	Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi) 	Will just have to stare at a bodyless Charlar then. :p
[12:03]	Geenz Kitten (geenz.spad) 	8D
[12:03]	Vincent Nacon 	I can see him fine
[12:04]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	I can see Charlar.
[12:04]	Mikki Miles 	me too. On viewer 3, of course
[12:04]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	On Viewer 3.2.8.
[12:05]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	and let's start!
[12:05]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	OK, welcome everyone
[12:05]	Tiberious Neruda 	just in time :3
[12:05]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	It's always a pleasure to see all of you.
[12:05]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	#1 Can Linden provide an up-to-date and complete mathematic algorythm for streaming/physic/render weight cost? Includes the exact values of each constant variable and their meaning, please. (Info on wiki seem to be out of date.) [Vincent Nacon]
[12:06]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	We believe that the only entry which may not be entirely accurate is Physics.
[12:06]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	I will follow up on that one.
[12:06]	Vincent Nacon 	well I have some problem with the result for all of them
[12:07]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	If you believe other ones are incorrect - please post what you're seeing as a forum entry, with as much detail and examples as possible.
[12:07]	Vincent Nacon 	trying to produce a info status for 3D Max users to see its weight before uploading
[12:07]	davep (runitai.linden) 	cool
[12:07]	davep (runitai.linden) 	sounds infuriating
[12:07]	Vincent Nacon 	all of them
[12:07]	Vincent Nacon 	but yeah, please double check
[12:08]	Nyx Linden 	can do - any details or example objects that reproduce differences from what you think they should be would help
[12:08]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	If you can show us examples where it doesn't match, we'll try to help
[12:08]	Vincent Nacon 	even the physic part would be problematic
[12:08]	Vincent Nacon 	will do
[12:09]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	thanks Vincent - that'd be a cool feature for people to have.
[12:09]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	Ok, moving on.
[12:10]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	next
[12:10]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	#2 Could the team comment on convex hull collision type being applied to non-mesh linksets as a means of reducing land impact? (such as regular or sculpted prims). Is it advisable to do so and is this behaviour likely to be nerfed in the future? [Aki Shichiroji]
[12:11]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	We're encouraging that!
[12:11]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	Go forth and convex!
[12:11]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Sculpted prims go up in LI something fierce though.
[12:11]	Vincent Nacon 	but leave it as options, right?
[12:11]	Nyx Linden 	it makes objects take less load on the servers for physics calculations, so go for it!
[12:11]	Aki Shichiroji 	there's a bit of background, but tl;dr: i have a client who's got a sim hitting up against 2000 prims available, with more expected on the way. She'd like to know whether she can switch everything to convex hull. i was a bit leery because there doesn't seem to be a lot out there in the way of official documentation
[12:11]	Tiberious Neruda 	so you're saying that for simpler objects, using all available means for lowering LI is encouraged?
[12:11]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	oh, poor sculpties... :-)
[12:11]	davep (runitai.linden) 	Yes, sculpted prims have an odd physics shape
[12:11]	Aki Shichiroji 	i saw a third party blog post on it and that was it.
[12:12]	Nyx Linden 	it will switch you to the new calculations, but if doing so saves you LI, rock on
[12:12]	davep (runitai.linden) 	boxes will get cheaper
[12:12]	Vincent Nacon 	odd? it's sphere-based
[12:12]	davep (runitai.linden) 	it's a torus thingy
[12:12]	Tiberious Neruda 	....I think what I'm getting ehre is switching to the new system gives the prim's 'real' cost...
[12:12]	Vincent Nacon 	doesn't sound right
[12:12]	Geenz Kitten (geenz.spad) 	torus thingy :D
[12:12]	davep (runitai.linden) 	spheres get expensive if the scale is non-uniform
[12:12]	Aki Shichiroji 	but there would be other considerations, such as the need to switch out areas that use hollows, correct?
[12:12]	Vincent Nacon 	it always have been sphere unless something changed lately
[12:12]	davep (runitai.linden) 	you can see it in the "show physics shapes" display
[12:13]	Aki Shichiroji 	and is the calculation being done on this going to be concrete?
[12:13]	Vincent Nacon 	yeaahhh... about that.
[12:13]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	I thought Convex Hulls removed hollows from the physics shape?
[12:13]	davep (runitai.linden) 	when an object is using an analytical shape, it won't draw the wireframe
[12:13]	Drongle McMahon 	The sculpty physics is already a convex hull, but an expensive one.
[12:13]	Aki Shichiroji 	i just want to make sure that if she goes ahead with it, some server change doesn't abruptly irreperably return her stuff.
[12:13]	Vincent Nacon 	doesn't seem to be working too well
[12:13]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Viewing the physics shape with the viewer is still not working
[12:13]	Tiberious Neruda 	under the old system, complex shapes like touses, rings, spheres, etc. were 'subsidized' by inflated costs on simpler ones like cubes
[12:13]	davep (runitai.linden) 	$!@$
[12:13]	Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi) 	Not working?
[12:13]	Tiberious Neruda 	am I correct in this understanding?
[12:13]	Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi) 	/me checks as he's sure it does work.
[12:13]	Vincent Nacon 	it works ....rarely
[12:13]	davep (runitai.linden) 	is there a jira on the physics shape display being broken?
[12:14]	Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi) 	Well I enabled it and it's working.
[12:14]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	There was a jira I know.
[12:14]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	I think it may have been closed.
[12:14]	Vincent Nacon 	sometimes it just doesn't show anything more useful than blue tinted world
[12:14]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	It was fixed for awhile.
[12:14]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Aki, I compiled information about this here: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Building-and-Texturing-Forum/Information-about-physics-optimization-lag-reduction-and-Mesh/td-p/1359589
[12:14]	davep (runitai.linden) 	maybe it's "mostly" fixed and just doesn't work on your machine
[12:14]	Vincent Nacon 	maybe
[12:14]	Tiberious Neruda 	and what you're telling us is that you WANT us to move to this new system on everything?
[12:14]	davep (runitai.linden) 	so please find and reopen the jira and include your system info
[12:14]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	lol... I guess
[12:14]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	I think I have managed to get it more or less correct now.
[12:14]	Vincent Nacon 	was that a hint to "get to work on videocards drivers support" ?
[12:15]	Vincent Nacon 	winks*
[12:15]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	TIberious - we want you to move to the new system
[12:15]	Aki Shichiroji 	Cool, Thanks Alve :D
[12:15]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	but
[12:15]	Vincent Nacon 	no butt
[12:15]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	oh, you're right
[12:15]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Vincent, would you look it over? You seem to know about that stuff.
[12:15]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	no butt
[12:16]	Vincent Nacon 	I've seen it over the weekend
[12:16]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	ok, moving on?
[12:16]	Vincent Nacon 	aye
[12:16]	Aki Shichiroji 	Thanks.
[12:16]	DJ Funizza 	ty !
[12:16]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	#3 Why has autoreturn on Mesh Sandboxes 3 and 4 been set to one minute, rendering them useless for anyone except the owner. [Drongle McMahon]
[12:16]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	I'll check on that, it shouldn't be.
[12:16]	Vincent Nacon 	yeah I was wondering about that
[12:17]	Vincent Nacon 	figured it was for weapon folks to test
[12:17]	Tiberious Neruda 	...I would like to point out, though, that if it's left as a voluntary thing, we'll be abusing the best of both worlds: the 'real' cost of simpler prims, and the 'subsidized' spheres and more complex shapes
[12:17]	Vincent Nacon 	to shoot mesh bullets
[12:17]	Vincent Nacon 	muhaha!
[12:18]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Maybe we should make bullets from perfect spheres? Or will you run into that not enough collision data thing and have the bullets go straight through?
[12:18]	Vincent Nacon 	(odd chat delay)
[12:18]	Drongle McMahon 	Tib...if you want perfect spheres, use invisible linked spheres as physics ... very cheap (0.1).
[12:18]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	ok, next item
[12:19]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Drongle, don't want too cheap though.
[12:19]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	#4 VWR-28416 was duplicated into SH but then disappeared from there. What does this mean? [Drongle McMahon]
[12:19]	JIRA-helper 	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-28416
[12:19]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	We still see it...
[12:19]	Vincent Nacon 	smaller or rounded down to nearest?
[12:19]	Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi) 	Did it get made non-public?
[12:20]	Drongle McMahon 	OK. Musy have changed the visibility nin sh, I guess
[12:20]	Vincent Nacon 	next?
[12:20]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	Can anyone not see it?
[12:20]	Vincent Nacon 	I see it now
[12:20]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	I see it.
[12:20]	Drongle McMahon 	I can see the vwr but not the sh.
[12:20]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	Ahh
[12:21]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	The VWR project is it's home
[12:21]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	the SH one doesn't matter - it just slide around a bit.
[12:21]	Drongle McMahon 	ok.
[12:21]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	next...
[12:22]	Vincent Nacon 	deformer yo!
[12:22]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	#5 How will the new TPV policy changes affect the Mesh Deformer project? Will the Mesh Deformer code have to be added to the official Linden Viewer first before it can be added as a feature in a Third Party Viewer? [Ashasekayi Ra]
[12:22]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	This is a question that should be asked in OZs user group.
[12:22]	Medhue Simoni 	Nice avatar Runitai!
[12:22]	Jonathan (jonathan.yap) 	I have a bit of information on this
[12:22]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	He would be the authoritative source for guidance on that.
[12:23]	Vincent Nacon 	do share
[12:23]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Ok, anyone know when that user group is held?
[12:23]	Jonathan (jonathan.yap) 	Oz at his UG today was asking for someone to merge the code into the latest v-d
[12:23]	Jonathan (jonathan.yap) 	Qarl is busy and can't get to it
[12:23]	Nyx Linden 	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:User_Groups
[12:23]	Medhue Simoni 	Oz did audio too
[12:23]	Vincent Nacon 	you missed it today
[12:23]	Jonathan (jonathan.yap) 	The changes to the rendering pipeline now give merge errors
[12:23]	Medhue Simoni 	I just finished listening to it
[12:23]	Vincent Nacon 	but another on Thursday
[12:23]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Blargh...
[12:24]	Jonathan (jonathan.yap) 	So Oz can't compile a test version for evaluation
[12:24]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Thanks Jonathan and Nyx
[12:24]	Tiberious Neruda 	hey..
[12:24]	Tiberious Neruda 	...here's a question for y'all
[12:24]	Jonathan (jonathan.yap) 	Any TPV person out there, if you can help thatwould be great
[12:24]	Geenz Kitten (geenz.spad) 	I'll look into it if I have time
[12:25]	Jonathan (jonathan.yap) 	That's all from me
[12:25]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	OK folks, It's a short list today - and we're done.
[12:25]	Tiberious Neruda 	since you guys're intent on breaking invisiprims... why don't you give us their last best use as an actual feature?
[12:25]	Vincent Nacon 	open table?
[12:25]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	I have some mesh metrics to give, if you're interested
[12:25]	Aki Shichiroji 	/me still wants the appearance of water on a plane :X
[12:25]	Vincent Nacon 	sure
[12:25]	Tiberious Neruda 	why are we unable to add shininess to translucent/transparent surfaces?
[12:25]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Yeaaaaaa
[12:25]	Vincent Nacon 	what you got?
[12:25]	Medhue Simoni 	goodie, metrics
[12:25]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	I always want to make Nal ask.
[12:26]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	:p
[12:26]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	heehee
[12:26]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	Gotta get my fun where I can.
[12:26]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	numbers yum yum
[12:26]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	lol
[12:26]	Vincent Nacon 	abusive number asking, Nal
[12:26]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	Current mesh adoption stats:
[12:26]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Its my addiction
[12:27]	Tiberious Neruda 	mesh adoption is finally catching on
[12:27]	Aki Shichiroji 	\o/
[12:27]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Sweet
[12:27]	Vincent Nacon 	who didn't think Mesh wouldn't catch on? lulz?
[12:28]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	We may an uptilt in rates once we get the mesh deformer working.
[12:28]	Aki Shichiroji 	Vincent: people with computers made of wood.
[12:28]	Medhue Simoni 	What percentage of the grid has mesh on it?
[12:28]	Tiberious Neruda 	I still say you shouldn't break invisiprims without giving features in their place
[12:28]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	/me agrees with Nal on that one.
[12:28]	Vincent Nacon 	you mean PC case made of wood?
[12:28]	Vincent Nacon 	but yeah I know..
[12:28]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	I know some people that will be kicking and screaming. Luckily, they don't know of these meetings, and I don't plan to tell them.
[12:28]	Vincent Nacon 	I wouldn't tell you, Davido
[12:29]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	How is invisiprims getting broken?
[12:29]	Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi) 	In deferred, they're disabled.
[12:29]	Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi) 	Because they break anything that uses the depth buffer.
[12:29]	Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi) 	(lights, shadows, etc)
[12:29]	Vincent Nacon 	but who need it anymore?
[12:29]	Vincent Nacon 	we have alpha layer
[12:29]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Vincent. :(
[12:29]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Old viewers I guess.
[12:29]	Geenz Kitten (geenz.spad) 	some people still use them for the fact you can set shiny on them
[12:29]	Jonathan (jonathan.yap) 	It has been used for special effects
[12:29]	Vincent Nacon 	yeah... old viewers...
[12:29]	Jonathan (jonathan.yap) 	Not just a foot hider
[12:29]	Tiberious Neruda 	we still do to make a translucent/shiny workaround
[12:29]	Aki Shichiroji 	oh! does anyone have the JIRA for the transparency appearance issue for rigged stuff under deferred rendering?
[12:30]	Aki Shichiroji 	i've been trying to find it again and haven't been having much luck.
[12:30]	Tiberious Neruda 	give us that, and you can break invisprims completely
[12:30]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Sorry Aki, I haven't seen that one in awhile.
[12:30]	Geenz Kitten (geenz.spad) 	it's more functionality that would be better moved off into something like a material system sooner or later
[12:30]	Tiberious Neruda 	preferably sooner
[12:30]	Tiberious Neruda 	hell, we HAD that at one point quite some time ago
[12:30]	Tiberious Neruda 	it was on beta grid for a little while
[12:31]	Vincent Nacon 	that translucent/shiny workaround is a neat gimmick... but not worthy enough for actual creation use
[12:31]	Tiberious Neruda 	but then inexplicably disappeared
[12:31]	Vincent Nacon 	I mean... I can't have shinny tree?
[12:31]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Oz said something about someone (TPV Dev) proposing a materials system.
[12:31]	Vincent Nacon 	can't apply on textures
[12:31]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	OK, we're done, from an official "Usergroup" standpoint.
[12:31]	Geenz Kitten (geenz.spad) 	oh right, that was brought up recently wasn't that?
[12:31]	Tiberious Neruda 	Vincent: some people DO recomend using it
[12:32]	Aki Shichiroji 	Thanks, Charlar, Runitai, Nyx, Vir.
[12:32]	Vincent Nacon 	sure, but logically sounds?
[12:32]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Thanks for the meeting.
[12:32]	davep (runitai.linden) 	thanks for the feedback
[12:32]	davep (runitai.linden) 	later, folks
[12:32]	Vincent Nacon 	time to ditch it and push for shinny alpha texture
[12:32]	Tiberious Neruda 	agreed
[12:32]	Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi) 	See you, whoever's leaving.
[12:32]	Tiberious Neruda 	and I'd rather HAVE that
[12:32]	Medhue Simoni 	cya all
[12:32]	Vir Linden 	Bye all!
[12:32]	davep (runitai.linden) 	/me gets some shin guards.
[12:32]	Vincent Nacon 	(and more? Normals mapping and such)
[12:32]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	yes... Thx Charlar, Nyx, Runitia and Vir
[12:32]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	See you...
[12:32]	Vincent Nacon 	but anywho, take care all
[12:32]	Tiberious Neruda 	...bt DON'T break the workaround until the actual feature is implemented
[12:33]	Vincent Nacon 	who cares....
[12:33]	Aki Shichiroji 	so are worn alphas disappearing under deferred lighting still expected? or should i update my viewer?
[12:33]	Vincent Nacon 	update
[12:33]	Nyx Linden 	alpha masks works under deferred, invisiprims do not.
[12:33]	Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi) 	Alpha layers shouldn't disappear.
[12:33]	Aki Shichiroji 	alpha textures.
[12:34]	Aki Shichiroji 	transparent hair textures on rigged hair, for instance.
[12:34]	Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi) 	Nor alpha textures - although alpha in general under deferred is iffy.
[12:34]	Tiberious Neruda 	I'd thought the Lindens didn't want to break content...
[12:34]	Geenz Kitten (geenz.spad) 	Vincent: the problem here is that it breaks existing content that relied on it, since invisiprims were also used to create shiny translucent objects, that's where the bigger issue here lays
[12:34]	Vincent Nacon 	they don't but...
[12:34]	Vincent Nacon 	invisiprims is old and outdate
[12:34]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	We don't like to break content, but sometimes it's necessary
[12:34]	Vincent Nacon 	yeah
[12:35]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	to move the state of the art forward
[12:35]	Vincent Nacon 	no need to drag a dead horse all the way to Town B
[12:35]	Geenz Kitten (geenz.spad) 	I'll admit that invisprims are terrible on the rendering pipeline
[12:35]	Tiberious Neruda 	Geenz: and it should get broken... but ONLY AFTER the actual feature is in, and working
[12:35]	Geenz Kitten (geenz.spad) 	they do things you generally shouldn't be doing in the pipeline
[12:35]	Vincent Nacon 	and keep in mind... invisiprims isn't a feature, not intended one anyway
[12:35]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	Yep
[12:36]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Are we talking about those prims that are used to hide avatar legs on older furry avis, for example?
[12:36]	Geenz Kitten (geenz.spad) 	but at the same time, I will admit that they're still used for the whole translucent shiny effect
[12:36]	Tiberious Neruda 	yes
[12:36]	Jonathan (jonathan.yap) 	Someone in LL had to have designed that texture a long time ago, right?
[12:36]	Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi) 	I don't think it was LL who designed it.
[12:36]	Vincent Nacon 	the biggest use for invisiprims are for hiding foot.....
[12:36]	Vincent Nacon 	or avatar
[12:36]	Geenz Kitten (geenz.spad) 	hey vincent, are you using deferred right now?
[12:36]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	yep - alpha layers solve that need now
[12:36]	Vincent Nacon 	and now we have a replacement for it, Alpha masking
[12:36]	Vincent Nacon 	yeah?
[12:36]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	But that is possible with the alpha layers now? What else would break?
[12:37]	Tiberious Neruda 	Geenz: precisely. Once we get the FEATURE to enable shininess on translucent items by itself, then you're free to break invisiprims permanently, because there's no longer a need for them
[12:37]	Aki Shichiroji 	drydocks.
[12:37]	Jonathan (jonathan.yap) 	sh-2720
[12:37]	Vincent Nacon 	I switch modes once a while for some works I do
[12:37]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	OK folks, i'm going to go.
[12:37]	Vincent Nacon 	take care
[12:37]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Bye Charlar
[12:37]	Bubbalicious (bubbalicious.chauveau) 	cya
[12:37]	Aki Shichiroji 	(i know that's specific, but it also highlights the need for water on more than just the sim defined water plane)
[12:37]	Aki Shichiroji 	Cya Charlar
[12:38]	Geenz Kitten (geenz.spad) 	under normal circumstances, the sphere that I just rezzed would have shiny applied to it, yet retain its translucent properties
[12:38]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	Tiberious, if we had to always support every use, all the time, we would be extremely limited
[12:38]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	I want a material system so bad I can taste it.
[12:38]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	You all are way to inventive
[12:38]	Geenz Kitten (geenz.spad) 	this is primarily where invisiprims still have some sort of function
[12:38]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	you find uses that we did not dream of
[12:38]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	lol
[12:38]	Geenz Kitten (geenz.spad) 	heh :P
[12:38]	Vincent Nacon 	some times people need a good smack in the face
[12:38]	Tiberious Neruda 	and that's a GOOD thing
[12:38]	Vincent Nacon 	;)
[12:39]	Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi) 	Charlar - this is why the lab needs to listen to us more. ;)
[12:39]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	Are you saying we don't listen to you?
[12:39]	Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi) 	Heh.
[12:39]	Vincent Nacon 	let him get back to work
[12:39]	Vincent Nacon 	oh now now... he was trying to leave
[12:39]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	I was, but I keep listening to you all
[12:39]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	hahah
[12:39]	Tiberious Neruda 	and a company that can recognize the most common 'unconventional uses' should look into making those actual features that don't require workarounds to achieve
[12:39]	Vincent Nacon 	yeah, that's how they sucker you into it
[12:39]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Well, in the past, that was an issue Charlar.
[12:39]	Vincent Nacon 	muhaha!
[12:40]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	but here I am!
[12:40]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	and everyone else.
[12:40]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	We try, but we will miss things, we will fail.
[12:40]	Tiberious Neruda 	and yes... most of us oldbies are VERY jaded when it comes to communication with LL
[12:40]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	Hopefully we're doing better now than before
[12:40]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Yes, I think the issue of the Lab listening has improved recently.
[12:40]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	I know Tiberious
[12:40]	Vincent Nacon 	thanks for reminding my account's age
[12:40]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	/me smiles
[12:40]	Tiberious Neruda 	you are... but there's still that doubt that's there
[12:40]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	you oldbies are generally the best
[12:40]	Geenz Kitten (geenz.spad) 	I think we'll see some pretty great stuff soon RE: Material System :3
[12:41]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	except for some trolls...
[12:41]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	lol
[12:41]	Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi) 	:o
[12:41]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Once burned... it takes some time to heal.
[12:41]	Tiberious Neruda 	and that will take quite some time to erase
[12:41]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	A material system WOULD be really super ossm
[12:41]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	...
[12:41]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	It's good to set the oldbie trolls and nutters on mute. Nirvana.
[12:41]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	OK, that's it, I'm leaving, thanks again all.
[12:41]	Vincent Nacon 	yeah, maybe DSS asset upload?
[12:41]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Adios Charlar
[12:41]	Aki Shichiroji 	Cya!
[12:41]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Thanks!
[12:41]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	bye
[12:41]	Vincent Nacon 	seeya
[12:41]	Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi) 	/me waves.
[12:41]	Geenz Kitten (geenz.spad) 	DDS isn't likely to happen any time soon
[12:42]	Vincent Nacon 	it won't but seem like the best choice for file format
[12:42]	Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi) 	Wow
[12:42]	Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi) 	I see a lot of pyrimads on Charlar...
[12:42]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	I still want a physics water setting for prims. XD
[12:42]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	But that
[12:42]	Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi) 	...I can't spell that word.
[12:42]	Aki Shichiroji 	ok, i have a faire display i need to have ready for tonight. See you around, all :)
[12:42]	Geenz Kitten (geenz.spad) 	it'd be nice only for normal map compression
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