Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2012.02.24

Simulator_User_Group
Prev 2012.02.21	Next 2012.02.28
== List of Speakers ==
Ardy Lay 	Dantia Gothly 	Draconis Neurocam
DrFran Babcock 	Flip Idlemind 	Ima Mechanique
Johan Laurasia 	Jonathan Yap 	Kaluura Boa
Motor Loon 	Moundsa Mayo 	Nalates Urriah
Rex Cronon 	Sahkolihaa Contepomi	Simon Linden
Tankmaster Finesmith	Vincent Nacon 	Visitor Detector
== Transcript ==
[16:01] Jonathan Yap: He was talking for a long time
[16:01] Simon Linden: OK, let's get rolling ...
[16:01] Flip Idlemind: I read "OK, let's get trolling ..."
[16:01] Simon Linden: Andrew is dealing with problems on the Aditi beta grid and the pathfinding project
[16:01] Ima Mechanique: hehe is that rolling with a silent T
[16:01] Tankmaster Finesmith: oh lucky him...
[16:02] Jonathan Yap: yeah, friday afternoon, when you want to take off
[16:02] Vincent Nacon: evening
[16:02] Visitor Detector: First time visitor to your land: Kirsten Kiergarten
[16:02] Simon Linden: Apparently something broke with their last version
[16:02] Vincent Nacon: alrighty, got news?
[16:02] Simon Linden: For next week's rollouts, one of the RC branches with a few voice fixes will be promoted to the main branch on Tuesday
[16:03] Johan Laurasia: I get a bad case of the rickets when I go there.
[16:03] Simon Linden: There will be a few new RCs on Wednesday
[16:03] Tankmaster Finesmith: yeay! voice fixes
[16:03] Simon Linden: One RC is the region crossing work again
[16:03] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Yay.
[16:03] Simon Linden: The other is a general maintenance branch with bug fixes
[16:03] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
[16:05] Simon Linden: I just scanned the list and there isn't much to get excited about ... some obscure crash fixes and mostly stuff that's not directly visible
[16:05] Tankmaster Finesmith: well, one visible change, but we can save that discussion for later :P
[16:05] Simon Linden: lol, I can even demo that one if wanted
[16:06] Tankmaster Finesmith: :D
[16:06] Jonathan Yap: I think that change is everywhere and just needs the switch flipped
[16:06] Simon Linden: So that's it for server news ... the other news that hit earlier today was about viewer policy changes
[16:06] Flip Idlemind: Well good, then it'll be easy to flip the switch back
[16:06] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: We were talking about the TPV policy before you arrived.
[16:07] Rex Cronon: policy changes?
[16:07] Vincent Nacon: yup
[16:07] Simon Linden: There was supposed to be a blog post on that, but I looked and couldn't find it ... does anyone know if that went out?
[16:07] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Viewer/Third-Party-Viewer-Policy-Changes/m-p/1399141
[16:07] Simon Linden: oh, thanks
[16:07] Tankmaster Finesmith: so, as one of the TPV deve, weve know for a few months now that LL has wanted to brake the viewer tags
[16:07] Tankmaster Finesmith: today we got word that LL will be braking them next week
[16:07] Vincent Nacon: nothing wrong with viewer tags but clearly LL is too upset about people using Firestorm/Phoenix more than default viewer
[16:07] Simon Linden: On that note, I'd like to pre-emptively explain that I'm a coder working on the server, so I've mostly been out of this loop
[16:08] Vincent Nacon: even if they're not upset... people can assume, there goes the ironic
[16:08] Tankmaster Finesmith: yeah, lets not get into LL's resoning for it
[16:08] Simon Linden: I'm not a lawyer, from marketing or product, etc. etc.
[16:08] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: LL's probably upset with Exodus as well.
[16:08] Tankmaster Finesmith: its not a discussion approperate for this UG
[16:08] Rex Cronon: i don't think ll has any reason to be upset, considering that ll made the source code open source in the first place
[16:08] Simon Linden: But one aspect that will hit next week is that the viewer identification tags will no longer work
[16:08] Nalates Urriah: Is there an appropo group?
[16:08] Vincent Nacon: we know, Simon, you're pretty much on the same boat with us
[16:09] Draconis Neurocam: nal, no sadly
[16:09] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: I don't think there's a user group just about the viewer, unfortunately.
[16:09] Tankmaster Finesmith: siman probably had less advanced notice than we did
[16:09] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Esbee used to have one, but she never turned up.
[16:09] Jonathan Yap: Esbee has a new job now, that is why Viewer Evolution died
[16:09] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Ah.
[16:10] Draconis Neurocam: and they never offered us another one to talk about anything related to the viewer other than oz's group to give code to LL
[16:10] Tankmaster Finesmith: but at any rate, starting next week (or now if simon want to demo it) the next time you rebake our avatar, your viewer identification tag will go away
[16:10] Vincent Nacon: actually Tank...
[16:10] Flip Idlemind: I wanna re-go on record as saying it's a terrible idea to break something that's been so widely used for so long.
[16:10] Johan Laurasia: Simon, were user names and display names a necessity (logistcally), or done just to give one the ability to change names?
[16:10] Vincent Nacon: based on the legal print, you still can keep the tag
[16:11] Tankmaster Finesmith: no, no viewer can identify itself
[16:11] Vincent Nacon: only difference is that you can't update it till the user provide it
[16:11] Rex Cronon: i guess this new policy will break that infamous bdsm viewer
[16:11] Tankmaster Finesmith: in ANY way
[16:11] Jonathan Yap: You can still use a group tag to advertise your viewer type
[16:11] Simon Linden: The viewer tag issue has two sides -- the technical one, and the TPV policy
[16:11] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Technical one?
[16:11] Vincent Nacon: user can still provide their "wishes" to promote themselves as user of a such viewer
[16:11] Vincent Nacon: so that's one way around legal base
[16:12] Tankmaster Finesmith: the policy is now blocking the use of the viewer tags, even is LL were to no be making the server change to also brake it
[16:12] Simon Linden: Technically, the server will not blindly pass unknown data from one viewer to all others in the AgentAppearance message - the un-used texture entries will be cleared out
[16:12] Simon Linden: This is the vehicle that viewer ID tags were built on
[16:13] Motor Loon: So viewer tags was bascially a "hack"
[16:13] Vincent Nacon: in a small way, yes
[16:13] Tankmaster Finesmith: this also means that the cirrent way of changing your tag color in phoenix and firestorm will also be broken
[16:13] Jonathan Yap: Viewer tags abused the bake texture fields to pass data
[16:13] Tankmaster Finesmith: yes, moto
[16:13] Flip Idlemind: I guess I'll have to do this now while I still can
[16:13] Flip Idlemind: cycle
[16:13] Tankmaster Finesmith: it was using a feature in a way LL had not intended
[16:14] Simon Linden: But that hits the policy issue - LL doesn't care if anyone tells others what viewer/os/network you're on. But it can't be an opt-out automatic system
[16:14] Motor Loon nods
[16:14] Simon Linden: That's about as close to the policy as I want to get
[16:14] Tankmaster Finesmith: right, you yourself can ware a titeler, or a group tage with the viewer of your choice's name in it
[16:14] Jonathan Yap: You have to push a button to emit that data now
[16:14] Motor Loon: Kinda fair enough
[16:14] Tankmaster Finesmith: LL isn't nor want to stop that kind of thing
[16:15] Flip Idlemind: Couldn't the argument be made that, by using a third party viewer, you're opting-in to show that you're on that viewer?
[16:15] Johan Laurasia: At the end of the day, it's LL's servers, and LL's right to define what a viewer cannot do, and that's the long and short of it.
[16:15] Tankmaster Finesmith: yes, but LL won't hear that
[16:15] Ima Mechanique: No FLIP
[16:15] Motor Loon: not really flip
[16:15] Simon Linden: Right, there are titlers out there - go to town with 'em
[16:15] Ima Mechanique: there is no such thing a tacit opt in, you either make the choice or someone made it for you
[16:16] Nalates Urriah: I'm really curious how far the Lab will go with the idea: You must not provide any feature that alters the shared experience of the virtual world in any way not provided by or accessible to users of the latest released Linden Lab viewer.
[16:16] Simon Linden: I'm not going to get into that discussion, Flip, I'll leave it to the legal types. But it's worth pointing out that Linden doesn't "approve" any viewers.
[16:16] Simon Linden: We have guidelines, and a list of viewers that claim to meet those.
[16:16] Tankmaster Finesmith: currently, at least with phoe and FS, the option for displaying your viewer tag was not optional
[16:16] Motor Loon: agree with Nalates... whats kind of cryptic and need further explanation
[16:16] Vincent Nacon: yeah... why go open source anyway?
[16:16] Moundsa Mayo: I'm sure that will be vigorously explored, Nal B^D
[16:16] Vincent Nacon: muhaha!
[16:16] Simon Linden: We don't check if they pass the guidelines, only if the _don't_ on some issue
[16:16] Vincent Nacon: I'm kinda surprised they haven't closed the source yet
[16:17] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: They can't, really.
[16:17] Tankmaster Finesmith: LL gets a fair amount of code from the public
[16:17] Nalates Urriah: Well Oz's next meeting will be interesting...
[16:17] Tankmaster Finesmith: jonathan yap here has been submitting quite a bit to them
[16:17] Draconis Neurocam: despite the hoops they have to jump through to do it
[16:17] Tankmaster Finesmith: and Ive submitted some stuff myself
[16:17] Flip Idlemind: As upset as I am about the across-the-board, almost-zero-notice viewer tag breaking, 2.k does bother me more
[16:17] Draconis Neurocam: yeah jonathan deserves a paycheck from LL in my opinion
[16:17] Tankmaster Finesmith: we had a meeting on all this today, nal
[16:18] Jonathan Yap: heh, I am just doing what 30 other people are doing
[16:18] Tankmaster Finesmith: flip, we had about 3 months advanced notice
[16:18] Flip Idlemind: Who's "we"?
[16:18] Tankmaster Finesmith: just not firm date unill today
[16:18] Tankmaster Finesmith: all TPV devs
[16:18] Vincent Nacon: phoenix's team
[16:18] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: The TPV user group isn't exactly public.
[16:18] Flip Idlemind: I just found out today
[16:18] Tankmaster Finesmith: who, imp, singularity
[16:18] Tankmaster Finesmith: phoe*
[16:19] Rex Cronon: i find it hard to believe that ll will close the source. unless disney buys u guys out;)
[16:19] Tankmaster Finesmith: the TPV UG is ment for only between LL and TPV devs
[16:19] Flip Idlemind: My personal viewer had features that other viewers don't? Depending on how broadly you define "shared experience", am I now in violation?
[16:19] Tankmaster Finesmith: no
[16:19] Tankmaster Finesmith: well, not likely
[16:20] Flip Idlemind: Exactly
[16:20] Tankmaster Finesmith: its only really targeted at things like emerald's secondary attachments that looked hidious to viewers that didn't support it
[16:20] Vincent Nacon: well... viewers still can listen to any channel to hear any avatar that teleport or enters a sim to know what viewer they're using... assuming they are opt-in users
[16:20] Jonathan Yap: The only violation pointed out was the Emerald type attach points, where 1 set of people saw 1 thing, and everyone else another
[16:20] Johan Laurasia: the TPV developers have to stay on the side of the client and stop trying to define standards
[16:21] Simon Linden: That policy change is really designed to try and prevent that from happening again
[16:21] Vincent Nacon: don't be silly, Johan
[16:21] Nalates Urriah: Well... It is nebuious enough that the Lab can make it mean whatever they want. That is going to be hard on TPV devs.
[16:21] Tankmaster Finesmith: basically on any major feature that affects the way you use SL, LL want the devs to work with them to get the feature ironed out so that server side supprot and whatnot can be properly set up
[16:21] Tankmaster Finesmith: and then all viewers can use it
[16:21] Vincent Nacon: people vote with their viewer choice
[16:21] Johan Laurasia: What do yiou mean Vincent?
[16:21] Ima Mechanique: according to that definition mesh shouldn't be happening either
[16:21] Tankmaster Finesmith: mesh is a LL feater
[16:22] Flip Idlemind: Ima I agree with you, in reverse
[16:22] Jonathan Yap: Ima, a TPV taking in the mesh deformer would be a violation until LL releases it
[16:22] Ima Mechanique: yeah, but any TPV that DOESN'T support it violates 2k
[16:22] Simon Linden: Right, and I really hope there's better work between LL and outside developers. The mesh deformer work, for example, is the way it should be going
[16:22] Motor Loon: What do these policy changes mean to those using RLV ?
[16:22] Flip Idlemind: On TPV's that don't support mesh, things will look "hideous"
[16:22] Simon Linden: There are no issues with RLV, Motor
[16:22] Jonathan Yap: RLV is not a violation
[16:22] Vincent Nacon: are you talking about non-V3 viewers?
[16:22] Motor Loon: ok
[16:22] Tankmaster Finesmith: LL doesn't consider legacy viewers that havent yet impmented LL's featuers as in violation of 2k
[16:23] Rex Cronon: i guess any tpv will be gone as they alter the shared experience?
[16:23] Rex Cronon: i mean any text tpv
[16:23] Ima Mechanique: not yet Tank
[16:23] Tankmaster Finesmith: UI changes are not covered in 2k
[16:23] Flip Idlemind: Just a few days ago I added some features to my viewer, with which I can control my camera location / behavior in non-official ways. Violation?
[16:23] Jonathan Yap: No Flip, that is only your local viewpoint
[16:23] Simon Linden: Right, legacy viewers are just old versions. They're likely to stop working well, at some point, but they aren't in violation because they didn't create a new unshared experience
[16:24] Flip Idlemind: But it uses llOwnerSay commands (similar to RLV) to control it
[16:24] Vincent Nacon: no flip
[16:24] Rex Cronon: text only "viewers" brake the shared experience
[16:24] Tankmaster Finesmith: text based viewers are in a different class
[16:25] Object: Hello, Avatar!
[16:25] Motor Loon: and they dont really break anything
[16:25] Rex Cronon: "You must not provide any feature that alters the shared experience"
[16:25] Tankmaster Finesmith: they have to maintian the chat based experence, but not hte graphical one
[16:25] Motor Loon: others in Second Life™ would still see a text-viewer-avatar as they should.
[16:25] Vincent Nacon: take note of the "shared" part
[16:25] Rex Cronon: ok shared
[16:25] Moundsa Mayo: Not everyone in SL shares well.
[16:25] Vincent Nacon: meaning stuff like tracking people online status where you shouldn't be allowed
[16:26] Nalates Urriah: I'm sure the Lab will be rational about how they implement the 'shared experience.' But, I think this will ne discouraging to several TPV Dev's.
[16:26] Vincent Nacon: at least not allowed by the other user
[16:26] Simon Linden: Let's pick an example - let's say you figured out a way to do 3D display in SL, but when you use it, everyone else sees garbage. That would be a violation
[16:26] Motor Loon: I do think this makes good sense - however, it IS worded in a very "open" sort of way that means it could be "misused" to shutdown pretty much anything LL chose to... not that I think they would.
[16:26] Jonathan Yap: Simon, there used to be a modded LL viewer that did just that
[16:26] Tankmaster Finesmith: the lsl function for true online status will change in a few weeks/months time
[16:26] Simon Linden: If you figured out how to do it without changing the world for everyone else, that's great
[16:26] Tankmaster Finesmith: but yes, the viewer itself cannot use features like that
[16:26] Flip Idlemind: Now when I go in mouselook, my camera position is centered on this cube in front of me
[16:26] Draconis Neurocam: what about parcel windlight settings?
[16:27] Ima Mechanique: the wording is VERY vague and completely open to LL interpretation
[16:27] Vincent Nacon: well it was broken while back
[16:27] Rex Cronon: wasn't there a viewer that allowed bouncing things?
[16:27] Tankmaster Finesmith: we are going to be allowed to keep parccle windlight until LL has a similer function
[16:27] Vincent Nacon: so... can't break what's broken already
[16:27] Jonathan Yap: Draconis, LL will be working on making that a supported featured at some point
[16:27] Tankmaster Finesmith: in a way, that function is grandfathered into the policy
[16:27] Draconis Neurocam laughs to himself
[16:27] Ima Mechanique: it should say something along the lines of not BREAKING other peoples experience with new features, not blanket stopping features
[16:27] Jonathan Yap: Supporting parcel windlight is not a huge server side change
[16:27] Simon Linden: /repeat_disclaimers
[16:28] Motor Loon: °?°
[16:28] Simon Linden: parcel windlight doesn't break others experiences, right?
[16:28] Vincent Nacon: I SEE THE WORLD IN PINK!
[16:28] Tankmaster Finesmith: Oz will be talking with others in LL during his trip next week to SF about whats needed for parcle windlight from a server standpoint
[16:28] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: No, others just run on the sim's settings.
[16:28] Vincent Nacon: everyone see it all in pink too?
[16:28] Vincent Nacon: ....no?
[16:28] Vincent Nacon: anyone?
[16:28] Simon Linden: That's a different bug, Vincent :)
[16:29] Simon Linden: It's in VWR somewhere - try fiddling with your graphic settings
[16:29] Motor Loon: or a feature... if you are a girlie girl
[16:29] Motor Loon: °?°
[16:29] Vincent Nacon: no no, i'm saying that's not shared the same "experence"
[16:29] Tankmaster Finesmith: the pink texyre only signifys that something went wrong during the rendering process
[16:29] Nalates Urriah: That was Torley trying to take over the world... wait gor the green bug.
[16:29] Flip Idlemind: Ok, so...if you "upgrade" some peoples' experience while leaving others alone, fine. But if you "upgrade" some peoples' experience while breaking everyone else's, violation?
[16:29] Tankmaster Finesmith: it used to be black, but was recently changed to pink to make it more obvious
[16:29] Tankmaster Finesmith: basicly, yes, flip
[16:29] Vincent Nacon: guys... I was joking about the "shared experience" part
[16:30] Simon Linden: yes Flip, I believe that's the idea
[16:30] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Exodus' 'Torley Vision'. :p
[16:30] Nalates Urriah: Koli, that was a cute move on Exodus' part
[16:30] Vincent Nacon: anyway... no, Windlight shouldn't be in violation of that
[16:31] Rex Cronon: so if u make a viewer that allows other people to load dynamic dlls to change their experience does that mean u can no longer make it?
[16:31] Flip Idlemind: So, generally speaking, if I create a scripted, in-world product, that relies on non-standard viewer features to work correctly, but doesn't negatively effect the experience of anyone not using that viewer, can I theoretically sell the product / distribute the viewer without violating anything?
[16:31] Tankmaster Finesmith: technically the partcle WL is in voliation of the new policy
[16:31] Vincent Nacon: such as RLV?
[16:31] Simon Linden: I haven't looked specifically at parcel windlight settings, but it's probably one of those features that needs minor changes all over, and thus turns into a pain. Viewer UI, messaging, server code and back-end database
[16:32] Tankmaster Finesmith: becauyse of the use of the covenatn for sharing the info
[16:32] Tankmaster Finesmith: RLV is fine
[16:32] Tankmaster Finesmith: its opt in and can be used on any viewer
[16:32] Vincent Nacon: right, but what else could relies on TPV?
[16:32] Tankmaster Finesmith: you can use RLV on the LL client
[16:33] Vincent Nacon: er...
[16:33] Tankmaster Finesmith: parcle WL is probably the major feature that requieres TPV use to see
[16:33] Vincent Nacon: yeah
[16:33] Flip Idlemind: But non-TPV people don't see "garbage", they just don't see the "intended" windlight settings
[16:33] Tankmaster Finesmith: theres other minor featuees, like qarls prim alignment tool
[16:34] Tankmaster Finesmith: flip, they see garbage int he covent
[16:34] Vincent Nacon: apart from that difference, it also produced a bug with cloud texture that caused by LL
[16:34] Tankmaster Finesmith: in the*
[16:34] Simon Linden: That's totally a viewer-side feature, Tankmaster
[16:34] Flip Idlemind: Well in that case, who defines "garbage"?
[16:34] Tankmaster Finesmith: not the storing of parcle windlie info
[16:34] Tankmaster Finesmith: thats stored in the parcle convenant
[16:34] Simon Linden: Where does that data get stored -- in the parcel description?
[16:34] Tankmaster Finesmith: yeah
[16:35] Tankmaster Finesmith: it was the only place we could think of that would be there for everyone
[16:35] Jonathan Yap: Simon, what we really need for many new features is a way to upload LLSD as an asset
[16:35] Simon Linden: It makes sense, and certainly is a lot better than stuffing it in unused data fields
[16:35] Jonathan Yap: Autocorrect needs a way to store lists of corrections
[16:36] Flip Idlemind: But parcel owners are (with some obvious exceptions) allowed to put whatever they want in their parcel descriptions, right? That's what I mean by "who defines garbage?"
[16:36] Tankmaster Finesmith: do a search for "*Windlight Sky:"
[16:36] Tankmaster Finesmith: youll get tones of discriiptions with that in it
[16:36] Simon Linden: That sounds like a general "store account info on the server" feature, which would be interesting, Jonathan
[16:37] Object: Hello, Avatar!
[16:37] Tankmaster Finesmith: TPVs would love a place to stor info for their viewer to pull from
[16:37] Tankmaster Finesmith: even if it was just text
[16:37] Simon Linden: AFAIK nobody in LL is upset about parcel windlight, other than the fact it's take ourselves so long to get on the ball
[16:37] Jonathan Yap: I used to work on an OS that supplied a user data area for every account, it was very handy having that field
[16:37] Vincent Nacon: too many things in their hands
[16:38] Flip Idlemind: My viewer is able to accept script commands to send group notices...is that ok?
[16:38] Simon Linden: yeah, I can imagine that being really useful -- there might be some issues with capacity limits and throttles, but that could be sorted out
[16:38] Flip Idlemind: (Yeah I feel like I need to ask about each individual feature...cuz of the broadness)
[16:38] Object: Hello, Avatar!
[16:38] Tankmaster Finesmith: if its something you can do w.o the comands yes, w/o a doubt
[16:38] Simon Linden: Flip - sure, if you wire things up right, you can drive the LL viewer with a python script. I'd love to see more of that
[16:39] Vincent Nacon: why python though?
[16:39] Tankmaster Finesmith: LL doenst really care about UI features
[16:39] Simon Linden: People here like python, I guess
[16:39] Tankmaster Finesmith: just inworld features
[16:39] Ima Mechanique: because python gets used a lot internally at LL
[16:39] Vincent Nacon: not everyone
[16:39] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: LL doesn't care about the UI.* <-- Fixed.
[16:39] Jonathan Yap: The other day I was reading about a Brain Mouse you put around your forehead
[16:40] Jonathan Yap: Of course you have to be calm to use it, so that rules out everyone here tonight :P
[16:40] Simon Linden: well, that topic didn't last as long as I thought it would
[16:40] Rex Cronon: i have a little question about lsl. would this be a good time to ask?
[16:41] Vincent Nacon: you mean the Emotiv?
[16:41] Simon Linden: Now!
[16:41] Flip Idlemind: Perfect time
[16:41] Tankmaster Finesmith: (Laughing out Loud) simon :D
[16:41] Rex Cronon: why can't i declare global vars like this string x="hi"+"hi";
[16:41] Ardy Lay: Oops. Guess I missed the good topic.
[16:41] Ima Mechanique: don't worry Simon, we still have a tyre and gallon of fuel to use
[16:41] Simon Linden was expecting a mob with torches and pitchforks today
[16:42] Johan Laurasia: because you're just setting values
[16:42] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: LOL
[16:42] Tankmaster Finesmith: no, that will be tuesday
[16:42] Johan Laurasia: not doing any math or function
[16:42] Tankmaster Finesmith: when the rest of the grid wakes up and relizes tags are broken :P
[16:42] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: We're not sailors either.
[16:42] Rex Cronon: well i set values. but i want to do it like that
[16:42] Johan Laurasia: why cant you just do string x = "hihi";
[16:42] Simon Linden: Right, I don't think the code outside the events like that gets executed ... just parsed when you compile it
[16:42] Jonathan Yap: Oz will be in SF next week, not sure if he will be making his Tuesday meeting due to the time of day
[16:42] Johan Laurasia: ?
[16:42] Vincent Nacon: correction Simon... you were expecting a mob of angry sailors with torches and pitchforks today
[16:42] Tankmaster Finesmith: though I think most don't care one way or abouther about viewer tags
[16:42] Ima Mechanique: Rex you can't do any processing in the global, not even cast a variable
[16:43] Vincent Nacon: :P
[16:43] Johan Laurasia: right
[16:43] Simon Linden: yeah, we'll see how Tuesday goes :)
[16:43] Johan Laurasia: you just declaring at that point
[16:43] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Do you mean Monday Jonathan, not Tuesday?
[16:43] Jonathan Yap: yes, monday
[16:43] Vincent Nacon: that too
[16:43] Johan Laurasia: no code until after the default state
[16:43] Vincent Nacon: yeah... I didn't realize how late Sailors tends to be
[16:43] Johan Laurasia: well, unless you're declaring a function
[16:43] Rex Cronon: well after the default state u can't declare any vars either
[16:43] Ima Mechanique: it's annoying as hell if you want to define a list of keys for example, because they have to be strings
[16:44] Johan Laurasia: sure you can
[16:44] Johan Laurasia: not global ones, but local
[16:44] Flip Idlemind: I try, even when I'm angry about something, to not mob places with torches and pitchforks
[16:44] Draconis Neurocam: why is it that you can use print(anything); and it compiles but has no visible result anywhere?
[16:44] Johan Laurasia: you can?
[16:44] Draconis Neurocam: ye
[16:44] Simon Linden: yeah, there is a lot about the LSL language that's not good ... I'd really love to replace it with a "real" langauge
[16:44] Draconis Neurocam: yes
[16:44] Vincent Nacon: you know what? let's update the wiki page for your office meeting that it's canceled on Tuesday but we'll have it here anyway.
[16:45] Jonathan Yap: llSay(0, "") showing no output is a bug
[16:45] Tankmaster Finesmith: .net!
[16:45] Rex Cronon: it would be very usefull to be able to do something like this "integer x= var0+375;"
[16:45] Motor Loon: why is that a bug Jonathan?
[16:45] Simon Linden: lol Vincent
[16:45] Jonathan Yap: Because Motor it works in v1, not in v2/v3, I should be about to output a blank line
[16:45] Ima Mechanique: Simon, please apply pressure to that, we'd like a real language too ;-)
[16:45] Johan Laurasia: as long as var0 is an integer, you can
[16:45] Simon Linden: I agree Rex, but it's unfortunately the way LSL is
[16:46] Tankmaster Finesmith: and no one wants to get mono...
[16:46] Motor Loon: Mabye it was a bug in V1 Jonathan °?°
[16:46] Motor Loon: You can always use llSay(0," "); instead
[16:46] Ima Mechanique: Rex, that's just laziness. If you defined the var0, you know what var0 + 375 will be ;-)
[16:47] Rex Cronon: that is just an example, i have other uses in mind for it
[16:47] Ardy Lay: I thought it was V2+ not DISPLAYING blank chat lines.
[16:47] Jonathan Yap: Motor, the issue is a little more complex; if you are outputting a string variable you now have to test to see if it is empty and if it is add \n
[16:47] Simon Linden: I suspect that llSay() thing is a special case where it decides at some point that there is no output so it skips the message
[16:47] Jonathan Yap: but don't do that if you are running v1!
[16:48] Jonathan Yap: There is another bug with llSay, if you output more lines in a toast than can fit on your screen, no output is displayed
[16:48] Draconis Neurocam: you can also put llSay(0,L"Hello, Avatar!"); and you will get the first "
[16:48] Draconis Neurocam: in the result
[16:48] Dantia Gothly: true^
[16:48] Simon Linden: That's a strange one
[16:49] Jonathan Yap: those are viewer bugs
[16:49] Draconis Neurocam: its a lexer bug
[16:49] Ima Mechanique: damn, if anyone wants those quirks in LSL Editor, you can code them yourselves ;-)
[16:49] Moundsa Mayo: M^D
[16:49] Ima Mechanique: I just spent several hours looking at (float"."
[16:50] Ima Mechanique: float value = (float)".";
[16:50] Ima Mechanique: which also appears to work in SL
[16:50] Simon Linden: What does that set it to?
[16:50] Ima Mechanique: 0.0
[16:51] Rex Cronon: it is floating between 0 and 1:)
[16:51] Ardy Lay: That's the value between -0 and +0.
[16:51] Draconis Neurocam: im more interested in what print(something); does though
[16:51] Object: Hello, Avatar!
[16:51] Ima Mechanique: I think, Simon. I never actually checked the value, just assumed it is zero
[16:52] DrFran Babcock basks happily in geek talk
[16:52] Rex Cronon: where is this print function. i can't find it
[16:52] Object: Hello, Avatar!
[16:52] Draconis Neurocam: it compiles
[16:52] Object: value is 0.000000
[16:52] Motor Loon: . = 0.0 like .1 = 0.1
[16:52] Draconis Neurocam: its not listed anywhere though rex
[16:52] Object: Hello, Avatar!
[16:52] Object: value is 0.000000
[16:52] Vincent Nacon: you know you can talk about it, DrFan
[16:52] Vincent Nacon: DrFran*
[16:52] Johan Laurasia: probably some left over debug tool Cory forgot to code out.
[16:52] Rex Cronon: so in the code u say print("hi"); and it works?
[16:52] Simon Linden: That is consistent, at least. (float)"bad.data" is also 0.0
[16:52] Johan Laurasia: .....fully
[16:53] Draconis Neurocam: yes rex
[16:53] Ardy Lay: Somewhere, out there, is a console printer that's about to run out of paper.
[16:53] Ima Mechanique: really Simon?
[16:53] Ima Mechanique: does any string cast to 0.0 or 0 for integer?
[16:53] Vincent Nacon: non-float data means 0.0 anyway
[16:53] Ardy Lay: Casting silently fails?
[16:53] DrFran Babcock: lol@Ardy
[16:53] Simon Linden: float value = (float)"bad.data";
 llSay(0, "value is " + (string)value);
[16:53] Vincent Nacon: beacuse zero float is zero
[16:53] Object: value is 0.000000
[16:54] Draconis Neurocam: you can also put as many declarations as you want in the first and last block of a for loop, not the center though
[16:55] Simon Linden: I could see an argument to make that NaN, but at least it's working the same way
[16:55] Rex Cronon: i just tried it. i didn't hear anything
[16:55] Ardy Lay: LPRINT("Test);
[16:55] Ardy Lay: oops
[16:55] Ima Mechanique: that may make a fix easier then
[16:55] Ardy Lay: Forgot a "
[16:55] Ardy Lay: Hehe
[16:56] Draconis Neurocam: ardy no ll just print
[16:56] Jonathan Yap: Stop Ardy, my dot matrix printer made a noise
[16:56] Rex Cronon: i wonder if there is format("c:\")
[16:56] Simon Linden wonders if there's a dot matrix printer on the marketplace
[16:56] Ima Mechanique: Rex nope, it's running on debian ;-)
[16:56] Johan Laurasia: copy con > nul
[16:56] Ima Mechanique: so try "mke2fs"
[16:57] Simon Linden: ok, last call for questions or topics....
[16:57] Rex Cronon: it compiles
[16:57] Johan Laurasia: Your Oscar picks of course Simon
[16:57] Jonathan Yap: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16828103044&nm_mc=OTC-Froogle&cm_mmc=OTC-Froogle-_-Printer+-+Dot+Matrix+Printers-_-Epson+America-_-28103044
[16:57] Draconis Neurocam: float y = 1.0f;
float x = 1.0F; are both valid as well
[16:58] Ima Mechanique: Oskar picks might be more fun
[16:58] Dantia Gothly: normal mapping/ displacement mapping?
[16:58] Johan Laurasia: knew someone'd go there Ima
[16:58] Simon Linden: Hmm, I'll go with The Artist
[16:58] Jonathan Yap: Is there going to be a big birthday blowout for Oskar next week?
[16:58] Johan Laurasia: face select radio buttons in the edit window
[16:59] Johan Laurasia: per face selection
[16:59] Simon Linden: Is it Oskar's birthday next week?
[16:59] Tankmaster Finesmith: I think so
[16:59] Tankmaster Finesmith: the 29rh
[16:59] Jonathan Yap: yes, he will be 9 on the 29th
[16:59] Draconis Neurocam: yeah he was born on the leap day
[16:59] Johan Laurasia: lol
[16:59] Simon Linden: oh that's right, he's on Leap Day
[16:59] Tankmaster Finesmith: ;)
[17:00] DrFran Babcock: 9 is ooooooold, beta old
[17:00] Simon Linden: I'm sure he's got soemething in the works
[17:00] Tankmaster Finesmith: wonder how carding at the pub works...
[17:00] Johan Laurasia: lol
[17:00] Tankmaster Finesmith: if he's only 9 and all
[17:00] Ardy Lay: Simon, you should bill this as the Bring Your Own Seating Meeting.
[17:01] Jonathan Yap: Thank you Simon, have a fun weekend
[17:01] Ima Mechanique: Simon, why does that board keep jumping up 'n' down?
[17:01] Tankmaster Finesmith: have a great weekend simon
[17:01] Simon Linden: Right- I'm definitely interested in fun seating, so bring 'em along
[17:01] DrFran Babcock: very informative, Thanks
[17:01] Simon Linden: Someone might be clicking it
[17:01] Moundsa Mayo: Simon, thanks for your time and all your hard work!
[17:01] Ardy Lay: Yes, we get to see lots of different stuff this way.
[17:01] Draconis Neurocam: yes thanks simon
[17:01] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Enjoy your weekend, Simon.
[17:02] Motor Loon: thanks and tc Simon & all ya other geeks
[17:02] Simon Linden: Thanks everyone for coming and the good discussion
[17:02] DrFran Babcock: bye all, and thanks. I actually come here to learn, and i do.
[17:02] Rex Cronon: tc simon, and everybody
[17:02] Ima Mechanique: thanks simon, and remember the pitchforks, torches, tyres, cans of petrol (gas) aren't personal ;-)
[17:02] Nalates Urriah: bye all
[17:02] Motor Loon: I came for the strippers... mabye next time eh?
[17:02] Rex Cronon: and have fun:)
[17:02] Tankmaster Finesmith: Take care everyone
[17:02] Tankmaster Finesmith: have a great weekend
[17:02] Vincent Nacon: nope... that meeting is "canceled" *wink*
[17:02] Jonathan Yap: Motor, I have some wire strippers
[17:02] Ardy Lay: What are the protest impliments for? I missed something.
[17:02] Motor Loon: almost as good Jonahthan
[17:02] Kaluura Boa: Next week, we'll talk about direct delivery... To keep us warm...
[17:02] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Oh boy.
[17:02] Jonathan Yap: Adry, viewer tags are going away next week
[17:03] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Protests already on JIRA about that.
[17:03] Ardy Lay: Oh, okay.
[17:03] Jonathan Yap: Also, new rules for TPVs
[17:03] Dantia Gothly: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_mapping
[17:03] Dantia Gothly: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Displacement_mapping
[17:04] Dantia Gothly: it would make content amazing in SL
Simulator_User_Group
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