Doc Team/2010-12-15

== Transcript ==
[13:02]	:	and here is our host
[13:02]	:	hey jeremy
[13:02]	 	has pinged you.
[13:02]	:	Eh?
[13:02]	:	yay! hey jeremy
[13:02]	 	has pinged you.
[13:02]	 	is. :) Hi Jeremy
[13:02]	 	has pinged you.
[13:02]	:	Hello, everyone!
[13:02]	:	yo jeremy
[13:02]	 	has pinged you.
[13:02]	:	Someone keeps changing my chair...
[13:03]	 	
[13:03]	:	/me hopes jeremy got my offline im
[13:03]	 	has pinged you.
[13:03]	:	I did, Adam.
[13:03]	 	(bronson.blackadder): Yo :)
[13:03]	:	YAY! (yay!)
[13:03]	:	'nuff said, no commenet needed
[13:04]	:	Righto.
[13:04]	:	How is everyone this week?
[13:04]	:	I'm doing well... a bit stressed though
[13:04]	 	(bronson.blackadder): not too shabby thanks, and you?
[13:04]	:	is there an agenda today?
[13:04]	:	Looking forward to a little vacation, but I've got a heap of work to finish before then :-)
[13:04]	:	No set agenda today, Aargle.
[13:05]	:	good... may I request a docuemtation addition?
[13:05]	:	it relates to some of the stress I had last week.
[13:05]	:	Though we're kicking around the idea of starting to structure this office hour a bit more to focus on some upcoming... uh, documentation-related developments.
[13:05]	:	jeremy, i have one question, i'd like to im it if i may, it;s more "unofficial"
[13:05]	 	has pinged you.
[13:05]	:	Hm. Aargle first, since his is doc-related, but sure, adam.
[13:05]	:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlSetRemoteScriptAccessPin
[13:05]	:	fair enough, thank you :0
[13:05]	:	that page
[13:06]	:	in the caveats or maybe even deep notes.....
[13:06]	 	edit that yourself, can't you, Aargle?
[13:06]	:	whispers: can I?
[13:06]	:	can I?
[13:06]	:	Yeah, anything that's not protected or "Linden Lab Official" is open to anyone who has an SL account.
[13:06]	 	to this page?
[13:07]	 	this used to have tons more info in it
[13:07]	:	hm... it's missing examples on it
[13:07]	:	well, I ran into a problem with that stupid call... some noob scripters just figured there's no harm in changing the pin on someone else's creation.
[13:07]	 	was thinking of the article on the lslwiki or something)
[13:08]	:	In fact, almost the whole LSL section of the wiki is Resident-maintained. I think the last thing I added was a correction to some Shared Media stuff (since someone managed to add the LSL functions before we released Shared Media)
[13:08]	:	when those got sold to my customers.... they didn't know that the update PIN permanently damaged the ability to update MY scripts
[13:08]	:	and with JP and the g-team bearing down on my customers to get updates, it became a crisis of biblical proportions. :-/
[13:08]	:	hello
[13:09]	:	Hello Random. Nice costume.
[13:09]	 	way to "lock" the PIN on a modifiable object.
[13:09]	:	thanks
[13:09]	:	still rezzin'
[13:09]	 	(arawn.spitteler): Make a note in the Readme file?
[13:10]	 	(arawn.spitteler): "Count not unto four, for four is too much more."
[13:11]	:	Hm. I understand your grief, Aargle. Is the ability to modify the page enough answer to your question?
[13:11]	:	LOL... yes
[13:12]	:	I'm just trying to figure out how to add my contribution
[13:12]	:	Very cool.
[13:13]	 	(arawn.spitteler): What's with the new Terms of Use? We got a new Viewer 2, at the same time, so I couldn't tell if that bug was fixed.
[13:13]	:	I tihnk we should probably advertise the fact that any Resident can edit most of the wiki... People who know how wikis work understand intrinsically, but I think most folks just think it's a static knowledge base.
[13:14]	:	Hm. Let me get back to you on that, Arawn. I know what changed, but I don't know if I'm supposed to broadcast it yet (it's not inherently bad) :-)
[13:14]	 	too-exclusive "club", the active wiki-editors. But I can imagine it getting too *inclusive*, too.
[13:15]	 	related to that new TOS: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Teen_Safety_Guidelines #Stay_anonymous is a little puzzling
[13:15]	:	It's nice to strike a good balance. Personally, I'm pretty envious of http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Main_Page
[13:15]	:	crap... can't figure out how to make it a bullet point
[13:16]	:	duh... toss on a *
[13:16]	 	(arawn.spitteler): Is that http://wiki.secondlife.com ?
[13:17]	:	Arawn, it's the wiki for Guild Wars. It's an interesting system they've got set up, where the company that makes the game is providing the wiki and servers, but the wiki itself is entirely maintained and governed by their community.
[13:18]	 	(arawn.spitteler): Rather like a Guildwars Users Group
[13:18]	:	The end result is pretty well-constructed, as far as wikis I've seen. I particularly like some of their rules, like "don't revert something more than once, or else you'll be accused of edit wars"
[13:18]	:	jeremy, is it possible to ask for a mainl;and sim rating to be changed do you know?
[13:18]	 	has pinged you.
[13:19]	:	/me ponders whether he should visit the open sores meeting.
[13:19]	:	Adam, if you could make a very good case for it, maybe. I was able to convince Guy to change this region to a G rating because it's largely Linden-inhabited, and we don't want to keep out any of the teens who will be able to access the main grid in the coming year.
[13:20]	:	heheh
[13:20]	:	i wnt to kep them out of mine
[13:21]	:	/me is not happy at having to lock out all his land from open access to access lsit only
[13:21]	 	move to Zindra. *wink*
[13:21]	:	might have to
[13:21]	:	but i lvoe my land
[13:21]	:	nuts... I gotta go. you guys have a great day
[13:21]	:	Thanks for coming, Aargle.
[13:22]	 	estate is completely insane right now... lots and lots for sale, at absurd prices... and yet I see it turn over at those absurd prices, too. It's like the old days of land-flipping, only accelerated.
[13:22]	:	/me would like the land changed to "mature"
[13:23]	:	/me LOVES having linden labs as lnadlord
[13:23]	:	/me is glad his alt bought his land in 2005.
[13:23]	 	(bronson.blackadder): Adam the chances of having a sim rating change on mainland is almost zip
[13:23]	:	may take a day or two to get a reply, but they're pretty good at helping out, such things as region restarts etc
[13:24]	:	always worht asking
[13:24]	 	(bronson.blackadder): unless you are the only person owning land on it
[13:24]	:	if you can make a good enough case
[13:24]	 	in a whole mini-continent of G-rated stuff, but not all the residents who used to use it... so maybe an extra glut on the G market
[13:24]	 	(bronson.blackadder): but there might be three other people that love the pg rating
[13:24]	 	(arawn.spitteler): Every parcel effected would have to consent?
[13:24]	 	(bronson.blackadder): so you would need to get everyone to go in on it
[13:25]	:	Yes. I would not expect to see any changes to mainland maturity ratings. "Making good case" would probably be along the lines of proving it was improperly zoned in the first place.
[13:26]	:	then if needs be i'll just abandon my land and move to zindra
[13:26]	 	(bronson.blackadder): Ive seen tons of PG sims having private resideces with sex beds and naked pics on the walls
[13:26]	 	(bronson.blackadder): lol
[13:26]	 	(bronson.blackadder): lol
[13:27]	:	Sadly, that doesn't make it right, Bronson :-P
[13:27]	 	(bronson.blackadder): oh I know
[13:27]	 	(bronson.blackadder): but it always cracks me up when I see that on PG land
[13:28]	 	(arawn.spitteler): Sex and Nudity might be offered in evidence, that a PG rating was inappropriate
[13:28]	 	(bronson.blackadder): I used to AR that
[13:28]	 	(bronson.blackadder): but I dont anymore
[13:28]	 	(arawn.spitteler): Period of Gestation Land?/
[13:28]	:	perhaps LL should consider only allowing confirmed regions who are inspected by a teama ssigned to do such work, before being allowed to be registered in the main search
[13:29]	:	more of a project to regulate the situation
[13:29]	:	/me is not happy 'bout land situation
[13:30]	 	(bronson.blackadder): I think the people that bought the land in a pg sim who promptly rezzed their bdsm stuff just didnt pay attetion to the land rating
[13:30]	:	I can't really speculate on that, Random.
[13:30]	:	creating a new system for the search, in other words, that words along side a certificate based system
[13:30]	:	lol
[13:30]	:	nevermind
[13:31]	 	(arawn.spitteler): Minds me of the Griefer, who sold his services as estate manager.
[13:31]	 	have a whole region?
[13:31]	:	It's an interesting idea, but I don't think it would be very hard for someone to "look good for inspection" and THEN rez their BDSM stuff. :-)
[13:32]	:	no
[13:32]	:	but i chaged my orbs from open, to access list
[13:32]	:	what im suggesting is something like a verification system, once the zone is verified by admins, it can be added to the filtered built-in search
[13:33]	 	(arawn.spitteler): A Fifty Meter Club might work, with walls around the stuff under access list, and then a bouncing space on top
[13:33]	:	I understand, Random... I just wonder what happens 5 minutes after a place gets "verified" :-)
[13:33]	 	and otherwise vacant Mature land, which would keep the self-proclaimed teens out just as well as Zindra
[13:33]	:	well if there is any violation, land should be probably seized if against the set terms
[13:34]	:	sounds like it would cripple land sales
[13:34]	:	lol
[13:34]	:	because not everyone wants to be a verified user
[13:34]	 	alone would change things, without having to vet the listings in advance.
[13:34]	 	(arawn.spitteler): If they're Dutch, they aren't allowed to cause pain to the Duyck
[13:34]	:	but Blue Mars for example makes people register builder accounts
[13:34]	:	and you'll rarely see offensive things
[13:35]	 	(bronson.blackadder): sounds a boring place'
[13:35]	 	(bronson.blackadder): been there, looked at it, came back here
[13:35]	:	well thats why you should persue a rated M or Rated X sim
[13:35]	:	to have more freedom
[13:35]	:	lol
[13:35]	 	(arawn.spitteler): /me wonders why he's alowed into Zindra
[13:36]	:	Ahem. Are you too young to be on Zindra, Arawn?
[13:36]	 	besides having Payment Info Used ?
[13:36]	 	(bronson.blackadder): no, just doesnt like boobies
[13:37]	 	(arawn.spitteler): Not my the hair of my chinny chin chin, but I don't want Harry Linden to know that.
[13:37]	 	(bronson.blackadder): harry is gone
[13:37]	:	/me facepalms.
[13:37]	:	what was the topic again
[13:37]	:	lol
[13:37]	 	(arawn.spitteler): Does Payment Info prove me over eighteen?
[13:38]	 	the policy, it's enough to get you in
[13:38]	 	(arawn.spitteler): There is a problem, I've seen, with Zindra, but it down't bother me, so I haven't ARred it
[13:38]	:	As far as adult content is concerned, payment info in file is verification.
[13:38]	:	...unless you're a teen. In which case you can't get off G rated regions anyhow.
[13:40]	:	Oh, and hello to the folks who haven't said anything yet! I hadn't panned my camera out in awhile. Welcome to my office hour :-)
[13:40]	 	(bronson.blackadder): lol
[13:40]	 	(arawn.spitteler): When the last location is unavailable, I've sometimes rezzed on Zindra, which should be more offensive, to some, than I've seen reason for.
[13:41]	:	hi, ^^ i'll be honest, what's the scope of this debate? I kind of hopped in mid topic
[13:41]	:	sorry
[13:41]	 	(bronson.blackadder): anything
[13:41]	 	(bronson.blackadder): its open discussion
[13:41]	 	(bronson.blackadder): I like monkeys
[13:41]	:	I think we're pretty much just chatting right now, Tyldie. Technically, I'm best-equipped to talk about Second Life's help systems (online help, the wiki, etc)
[13:42]	:	oh ok. monkeys are neat =p but i'm more of a dog person.
[13:42]	 	(arawn.spitteler): De Scope of De Bait is whatever gets nibbled
[13:42]	:	bye bye
[13:42]	:	Bye Enomis. Thanks for coming.
[13:42]	:	bai ^^
[13:42]	 	(arawn.spitteler): Documentation is where you look up everything else, so anything goes.
[13:43]	:	As I mentioned earlier, I might be adding a bit more structure to these office hours in the coming quarter, based on some upcoming online help stuff we've been working on.
[13:43]	 	(arawn.spitteler): I was just looking for something I'd edited, on the wiki, but I don't recall what it's called
[13:43]	:	jeremy, can i offer 1 suggerstion re diocumentation?
[13:43]	 	has pinged you.
[13:43]	:	Arawn, you should be able to find it in "my contributions" at the top of the page, if you are logged in.
[13:44]	:	Sure, Adam.
[13:44]	 	(arawn.spitteler): Andrew just opens with Announcements, then throws the floor open
[13:44]	:	ref "ghosting"#
[13:44]	:	we coudl use a dedicated article on it, and how to resolve it
[13:44]	:	Hm. I feel like Kate did some work on this a little over a year ago...
[13:44]	:	yes , but needs clarifying - for 2 reasons
[13:45]	:	1) i see a lot of forum postings onmit
[13:45]	:	with this merge will there be any LSL changes, of note?
[13:45]	:	on it*
[13:45]	:	2) i was ghosted 3 days ago
[13:45]	:	at my home
[13:45]	:	Which merge, Tyldie?
[13:45]	:	the teen merge? i had to sign a new ToS today, so i figure it's here or close
[13:45]	:	and i had a huge problem in live chat to get a region restart to release me
[13:46]	:	Adam, is this sort of what you're looking for? https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/KB2/Login_failure #The_system_is_logging_you_out
[13:47]	:	link doesn't work for me
[13:47]	:	Ah. I don't think LSL is any different for teens than it is here, so I don't forsee any immediate LSL changes. It's possible I'm not aware of some changes to avatar information functions, though.
[13:48]	:	mostly
[13:48]	:	could yu pass that onto whoever deals wioth support?
[13:48]	:	Weird, Random. Does the link work for everyone else?
[13:48]	:	oh, ok. cuz i'm just getting into, i'd hate to find out i learned things that would change.
[13:48]	:	to use an idiom - " i spat my dummy out" over that
[13:48]	:	Adam, pass what on? Your request, or this article?
[13:48]	:	that article
[13:49]	:	when i click the link i just get a pure black screen
[13:49]	 	for me Jeremy)
[13:49]	 	has pinged you.
[13:49]	:	Support asked me to write that a couple weeks ago. They know :-)
[13:49]	:	nvm, works in my out of SL browser. ^^;;
[13:49]	:	i argued with live chat who point blank refused my request for a region restart - despite it being a mainland sim, and only "me" and my alt being on that sim
[13:50]	:	/me was NOT rude to them btw
[13:50]	 	(arawn.spitteler): Was you alt unable to log off? They should be able to use Linden Powers to fix that.
[13:50]	:	Hm. Well, if that ever happens again, we call it "stuck presence" internally. It's a well-known issue, and our support staff *should* be happy to help you fix it. I'm sorry to hear about your individual case :-/
[13:50]	:	it didn;t work
[13:51]	:	it only got resolved after i threatened to raise a customer comoplaint
[13:51]	 	hideous work-around... not sure it should be documented, it's so ugly
[13:51]	:	Qie, are you going to suggest crashing the region?
[13:51]	:	quickest, easiest way is to restart the region
[13:51]	 	that ugly
[13:51]	 	(arawn.spitteler): /me'd like to know how to crash a regiono
[13:51]	:	then clear cache before logging in
[13:52]	 	enough about logging in to a different sim, eventually it will let you... then if you can make your way to the sim where your ghost is, things resolve (usually after a re-log)
[13:53]	 	a bug in Presence that you can get in by trying over and over and over
[13:53]	:	Yikes.
[13:53]	 	(arawn.spitteler): Oh, is how to crash a sim something you were supposed to document, this week?
[13:53]	:	I hope not, Arawn.
[13:54]	:	I have, however, heard people try to justify region-crashing tools by saying they use them to un-stick people.
[13:55]	:	(I do NOT endorse or condone this practice)
[13:55]	 	(arawn.spitteler): Just AR yourself, for failure to log off completely
[13:55]	:	heh
[13:55]	:	Good luck logging in to file the AR :-)
[13:55]	:	it was resolved, eventually
[13:55]	:	what is todays topic again
[13:55]	:	lol
[13:56]	:	it only took an hour to go for the easy fix
[13:56]	:	Random, I don't usually set a topic. I tend to run this as more of a freeform discussion, with the caveat that documentation issues get priority.
[13:56]	 	want to raise this doc topic again, briefly: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Teen_Safety_Guidelines #Stay_anonymous
[13:56]	:	oh ok
[13:56]	:	Ah, right. What about it, Qie?
[13:56]	 	sure it really wants to be saying that folks should get ARd for asking people's age.
[13:57]	 	(arawn.spitteler): If someone asks your age, shouldn't they be ARred as possible Teens?
[13:58]	 	seems like something teens *especially* might want to know
[13:58]	:	It's a touchy subject, for sure. In general, that kind of thing may fall under the "disclosure" section of the community standards http://secondlife.com/corporate/cs.php
[13:59]	:	Even for adults; context is important, of course.
[14:00]	 	some sicko adult could go around angling for teens by asking them their age... but the non-sicko adults might have good reason to want to know, too.
[14:01]	:	very morale
[14:01]	 	teens in particular might want to know that they're dealing with other teens (or at least somebody purporting to be a teen... which is a problem, admittedly)
[14:01]	:	Keep in mind that ARs are investigated on a case-by-case basis. This includes inspection of the chatlogs in question.
[14:02]	 	(arawn.spitteler): An astrologer would want your birthdate, so a teen or perv might play at astrology
[14:02]	:	You have been online for 1 hours.
[14:02]	:	soviet investigation
[14:03]	 	means work for whatever team polices ARs... it just seems weird and artificial. Not that SL conversations should start with A/S/L or anything
[14:03]	 	the guidance LL wants to give to Teens, then the documentation reflects it. It just seems unwise.
[14:04]	:	We want to make sure that the teens are as safe as possible, of course. I can't really comment on the politics of the situation, but where children are concerned, it's better to be safe than sorry :-)
[14:05]	 	guidance LL has, then there's nothing wrong with how it's documented, I guess.
[14:06]	:	Ah, and it's past 2pm! Any final thoughts before I post the transcript?
[14:06]	 	(arawn.spitteler): /me wonders if he should finally have a thought
 
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