Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.06.11

Simulator_User_Group
Prev 2013.06.04	Next 2013.06.18
== List of Speakers ==
Adamburp Adamczyk	Andrew Linden 	Dallas Winslet
Darien Caldwell 	Duckie Dickins 	Honza Noyes
Inara Pey 	Jonathan Yap 	Kallista Destiny
katie Canucci 	Kelly Linden 	Kitto Flora
Kotzy Maesar 	Levio Serenity 	Lucia Nightfire
MarkSeery Melodie	MartinRJ Fayray	Mona Eberhardt
Nalates Urriah 	Nya Raymaker 	Petr Topaz
Qie Niangao 	Rex Cronon 	Shrike Rossini
Simon Linden 	SNIM Outlander 	TankMaster Finesmith
Techwolf Lupindo 	Whirly Fizzle 	Yuzuru Jewell
== Transcript ==
[12:00] Yuzuru Jewell: Hello, Kitto.
[12:01] Kitto Flora: Hello all
[12:01] Yuzuru Jewell: Hello, Andrew.
[12:01] Mona Eberhardt: Hi Andrew.
[12:01] Mona Eberhardt: Hello all.
[12:01] Inara Pey: Hi, Andrew
[12:01] Andrew Linden: I just love the fact that the floor of this platform is always visible when I login these days.
[12:02] Andrew Linden: It used to be one of the last things that would show up for me.
[12:02] Kitto Flora: Stock scratched metal
[12:02] Honza Noyes: Hello everone.
[12:02] TankMaster Finesmith: theres a floor? :P
[12:02] Simon Linden: That's true, it's a lot better than it was before
[12:02] Kitto Flora: Which reminds me... where is the sun?
[12:02] Petr Topaz: I brushed it when I got here
[12:02] TankMaster Finesmith: on the other side of the virtual world
[12:02] Simon Linden: I can get started with the release new ... https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/SL10B-Bear-Avatar/4944841
[12:02] Simon Linden: ooops, wrong link
[12:02] Kallista Destiny: It's virtual midnight
[12:02] Simon Linden: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2013-06-10/td-p/2041367
[12:03] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
[12:03] Kitto Flora: So set mid-day. Can you see the sun?
[12:03] Simon Linden: Remember not to look directly into it :P
[12:03] Duckie Dickins: I see the sun straight up
[12:03] Simon Linden: Today we updated the main server channel with a bug fix that should take care of the mass-logoff problem
[12:04] Simon Linden: This also should fix the LSL urls going missing
[12:04] Levio Serenity: woot nice
[12:04] Rex Cronon: "should"?
[12:05] Mona Eberhardt: that's great, although i must say i haven't encountered that problem.
[12:05] Simon Linden: Tomorrow the Magnum channel will get an update for it's interest list code, and is likely (but not yet decided) what will get promoted next week, barring any new finds
[12:05] Lucia Nightfire: should is a safe word, excludes anythign overlooked, heh
[12:05] Andrew Linden: Lucia is correct.
[12:06] Simon Linden: BlueSteel and LeTigre will get another maintenace release with more bug fixes
[12:06] Lucia Nightfire: I use it alot myself
[12:06] Simon Linden: yeah, I've learned enough to hedge my bets and under-promise :)
[12:06] Honza Noyes: Simon, the LSL HTTP wasn't fully fixed > https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-2833
[12:06] Simon Linden: ok Honza, I'll take a look later at that report
[12:07] Andrew Linden: The Magnum channel has to main fixes... the excessive AvatarAppearance packets, and my final fix for meeroos.
[12:07] Andrew Linden: er... has two new bug fixes...
[12:08] Kitto Flora: What did 'excessive AvatarAppearance packets' do?
[12:08] TankMaster Finesmith: the meeroo fix was to save time and bandwidth by not sending any data on them, right? :P
[12:08] Andrew Linden: specifically, the problem where it looks like the meeroo's animation is busted when you turn around to look at it.
[12:08] Simon Linden: Honza - did you see the last comment on that bug? Maestro and Kelly are looking into it and need some more info
[12:08] Andrew Linden: Heh TankMaster. I see you are not a meeroo aficionado
[12:09] TankMaster Finesmith: hehe
[12:09] Honza Noyes: Right. Already respont in IMs, cannot add comments to it, Simon.
[12:09] Simon Linden: and I realize a bug Kelly and I were talking about earlier today is that issue, so someone is on it
[12:10] Mona Eberhardt: Neither am I... Especially after running into a rude avatar at Fantasy Faire - she had about 1,000 scripts on her, all of them meeroo-related, as she bragged.
[12:10] Simon Linden: That's all the news I have ... Andrew or Baker, do you guys have anything more?
[12:10] Mona Eberhardt: (I'm referring to Tank not being a meeroo aficionado)
[12:10] Andrew Linden: No more news. I've been working on the update for the Magnum RC.
[12:11] Mona Eberhardt: I have a question regarding texture-induced lag.
[12:11] Simon Linden: Sure Mona, go ahead
[12:11] TankMaster Finesmith: do have to say though, as far as breedables go, meeroos are defently the best as far as not lagging the region
[12:11] Mona Eberhardt: In many regions, our frame rates go to low single-figures because the creators there make extensive use of 1024x1024 textures.
[12:11] Darien Caldwell: *shameless plug* lol
[12:12] Simon Linden: Mona, do you mean viewer or simulator frame rates?
[12:12] Mona Eberhardt: viewer.
[12:12] Rex Cronon: quite a few sculpties use that size too
[12:12] Simon Linden: yeah, it's a lot of data
[12:13] Mona Eberhardt: How much RAM on the graphics card or on the hard disc's cache does SL use for textures?
[12:13] Darien Caldwell: I heard that rumor not long ago, and did some tests myself. I didn't find texture size had any impact on framerates whatsoever. At least not on my hardware.
[12:13] Andrew Linden: The viewer needs to be made smarter, or more configurable, so that it will limit resolution of texture downloads.
[12:13] Mona Eberhardt: I'm asking, because I read a recent article by Penny Patton and there are some things I don't understand.
[12:13] TankMaster Finesmith: depends on whats in view and what viewer you are using, mona, as well as your prefernce settings
[12:13] Duckie Dickins: was that bug about the http in body being truncated at 1024 bytes?
[12:14] Duckie Dickins: since I can't view https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-2833
[12:14] Mona Eberhardt: Specifically, Penny wrote that SL uses up to 512MB for textures.
[12:14] Simon Linden: The viewer will download each texture and write them to disk, so that's all in the cache folder. You can vary the size of the cache in prefs
[12:14] Andrew Linden: Mona, got a link to that article?
[12:14] Mona Eberhardt: Yes Andrew. Give me a moment please.
[12:14] Mona Eberhardt: http://pennycow.blogspot.gr/2013/06/building-better-second-life.html
[12:14] Nalates Urriah: The viewer allocates no more than 512k to textures. The rest of the VRAM available is used for rendering the screen.
[12:15] Simon Linden: For the video card, I'm not as familiar with how it allocates the memory space but I know it can be an issue ... just go to a crowded region and that's one of the reasons things slow down
[12:15] Levio Serenity: question: is the link order shown while editing/inspecting an object supposed to be 100% identical to the link order via llSetLinkPrimitiveParamsFast() ? i've found cases where they are not the same and i dont know if this is "working as intended" or this is a bug?
[12:15] Simon Linden: ... all the textures on AVs
[12:15] TankMaster Finesmith: actuualy the viewer can easly go well beyond the selected 512MB texture limit
[12:15] Darien Caldwell: texture count is a whole other thing, yes :)
[12:16] Mona Eberhardt: Thank you Nal. And here's my question. Nowadays, we see GPUs with 2, 3, even 6 GB of VRAM. Will the viewer take advantage of these newer GPUs?
[12:16] TankMaster Finesmith: the viewer cant use more than 4GB of memory, as its a 32bit app
[12:16] TankMaster Finesmith: mona, no, that would require making the app 64bit, which would take a lot of work
[12:16] Simon Linden: That sounds like a bug, Tiger, so if you can figure out how to make it happen and file a BUG jira, that would be great
[12:16] Qie Niangao: Tiger, are you referring to a TPV's report of link number? There are some inaccuracies there, historically.
[12:17] Mona Eberhardt: So, we're basically stuck here, right Tank?
[12:17] Andrew Linden: I'm not sure what the right answer to that is, Mona.
[12:17] Levio Serenity: well it i've seen it with the real SL viewer as well
[12:17] Whirly Fizzle: Thats always been broken yes. v3 can't sahow link order in build tools can it?
[12:17] Nalates Urriah: Tank, I understand the VRAM on the video card max's out at 512 of texture storage. Is that not right?
[12:17] Andrew Linden: TankMaster may be correct
[12:17] MartinRJ Fayray: no Whirly
[12:17] Andrew Linden: but I seem to recall hearing that there were some 64bit efforts on the TPV front.
[12:17] Darien Caldwell: i can't say i've seen any discrepancy with LL's V3
[12:17] Jonathan Yap: The server code does not send link numbers to the viewer the last time I looked
[12:17] TankMaster Finesmith: @ tiger, yes, theres know bug in the viewer where the link order can be reveresed in some instances
[12:18] Andrew Linden: It seems like an opportunity for a TPV to shine -- support for more textures.
[12:18] TankMaster Finesmith: @ andrew, only for linux
[12:18] Honza Noyes: Speaking of the viewer, is there anything going to be done with BUG-1470, it is major flaw in the internal web browser.
[12:18] Levio Serenity: this isnt reversed, just random afaik
[12:18] Darien Caldwell: but the only way to see link order is to step through it using Ctrl->
[12:18] Qie Niangao: Tiger: oh, then I'm not sure what you're looking at in the viewer to see link number
[12:18] Whirly Fizzle: Macc needs the cocoa project ready to have a 64 bit possible
[12:18] Andrew Linden: Although, there would still be some pressure for content creators to not use so many textures, and smaller ones at that.
[12:18] TankMaster Finesmith: @ qie, its a feature in some TPVs
[12:19] Andrew Linden: "Fewer and smaller textures" is still good advice for making content load fast.
[12:19] Qie Niangao: tank, yeah, I'm familiar with that, but not in the LL viewer.
[12:19] Levio Serenity: i was going by the order listed in the inspect window in the real viewer
[12:19] Darien Caldwell: i'm not familiar with that, Tiger. how do you bring that up?
[12:19] Mona Eberhardt: Can't argue with that, Andrew. No point in having a 1024x1024 texture on a 1 cubic centimetre cube...
[12:19] Whirly Fizzle: Oh, I didn't know that was supposed to be in link order
[12:19] Qie Niangao: I didn't either.
[12:20] Qie Niangao: The window I see can be re-sorted by different columns.
[12:21] Levio Serenity: well i didn't know either. thats why i was asking here first to know if it would be considered as a bug or not. seems logical to me to think they would be listed in link order by default. and usually they are but not always
[12:21] Andrew Linden: One could argue that SL needs better "feedback" mechanisms to inform people when they make inefficient builds.
[12:21] TankMaster Finesmith would like to see 2048x2048 textures return
[12:21] Whirly Fizzle slaps Tank :P
[12:21] Andrew Linden: Texture count, pixel count, and number of triangles
[12:21] Andrew Linden: and maybe some sort of "score" that combines all that info into one number.
[12:22] MartinRJ Fayray: there's a jira issue about the order I think *looking*
[12:22] Kitto Flora: ARC for objects?
[12:22] Andrew Linden: By object, parcel, avatar, and region.
[12:22] Mona Eberhardt: Tank, such textures would only make sense as frescoes and tapestries on huge walls with 1 repeat per side... I can see how they'd be useful if you were recreating the Capella Sistina with as few prims as possible, but in other cases.... :/
[12:23] Kitto Flora: Beware the ORCs :)
[12:23] Andrew Linden: I'm just pipe dreaming here... that kind of system would help people evaluate stuff they make and stuff they buy.
[12:23] Whirly Fizzle: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24417 and https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-2621 (for link order)
[12:24] Simon Linden: yeah, that object inspector seems to first come up in link order, so it's not actually sorting by any of the columns yet ... at least from my quick test
[12:24] Nalates Urriah: We have a Develop_>Render Meta->Render Complexity that used to work, but stopped working some time ago.
[12:24] Levio Serenity: yes whirly, that first one looks like what i'm talking about. i cant view the second one
[12:24] Simon Linden: Sounds like a viewer UI issue ... and it would be nice to add a link number in there, but that's another story
[12:25] Levio Serenity: so should i filre new ticket with my repro simon?
[12:25] Whirly Fizzle: 2nd was missfiled & was complaining about the TPV way of showing link order
[12:25] Jonathan Yap: The server would have to send link numbers, right?
[12:25] Darien Caldwell: i thought the link list was long gone, so I learned something. totally missed the little buttton down in the corner. :)
[12:25] Simon Linden: Yes Tiger, please file a BUG jira on it. It may be a dupe but in any case it will get sorted
[12:25] Levio Serenity: i was told, but i didnt confirm, the real sl viewer lets you move between links in order with ctrl + and ctrl -
[12:26] Levio Serenity: if in edit mode of course
[12:26] Whirly Fizzle: Levio see http://jira.phoenixviewer.com/browse/PHOE-1372 for the most descriptive issue on FS JIRA. Other issues are linked to that. Same bug is in all TPVs with that feature
[12:26] Darien Caldwell: yes, all viewers should allow that
[12:26] Jonathan Yap: I thought it was CTRL > and < ?
[12:26] Lucia Nightfire: I personally would like to see both prim count and land impact in the build menu, because the prim accounting system will not reflect it correctly even for non-mesh or materials linksets, heh
[12:26] Darien Caldwell: well, same keys really
[12:26] Darien Caldwell: depends if you press shift or not :)
[12:27] Lucia Nightfire: so are we ready to move on to scripted prim return discussion? heh
[12:27] MartinRJ Fayray: ((wow the object inspector is very well hidden))
[12:28] Jonathan Yap: Martin, I have a jira on getting the object inspector back to a more visible location
[12:28] Simon Linden: It really is, Martin ... I'm not sure I ever used it before and it just took me a while to find it
[12:28] SNIM Outlander: Just a quick query, is there any chance of getting a new or revised LSL function similar to llPlaySound that can start part way through the stated sound?
[12:28] Andrew Linden is lost... not sure which is the main issue of conversation.
[12:28] Jonathan Yap: Simon, I used it all the time in the V1 viewer
[12:29] Simon Linden: So after tomorrow's update, I'd be curious to hear from anyone who tries the new pathfinding CHARACTER_STAY_WITHIN_PARCEL option
[12:29] Levio Serenity: yes!! i want to know if you can return an object deeded to a group and if so, is it just deleted? will any warning be given as people nuke all their millions media movie players?
[12:29] Jonathan Yap: Back then the pie was More->MOre->Inspect
[12:29] Jonathan Yap: Simon, I will be trying that asap
[12:29] Lucia Nightfire: I have a feeling tomorrow I'm going to be filing jiras on the prim return function limitations and exploits
[12:29] SNIM Outlander: I believe the release notes said group deeded couldn't be returned.
[12:30] Lucia Nightfire: particularly when I saw it was based on total parcel land impact
[12:30] Simon Linden: Kelly may be on soon so if we can give him a few minutes he may be around to answer questions about the new LSL functions
[12:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[12:31] Darien Caldwell: that would be good. I don't understand the throttle at all
[12:31] Qie Niangao: Can wait till tomorrow and try it, but I'm unclear on the process for granting PERMISSION_RETURN_OBJECTS to group-deeded scripts. A Group owner grants permission, then deeds? Or deeds then (somehow) grants permission?
[12:31] Simon Linden: It mentions group-owned objects for llReturnObjectsByOwner() but not for llReturnObjectsByID()
[12:31] Lucia Nightfire: I understand a thottle, but I feel it needs to eb on a returned asset count basis, not prim or land impact or linkset count
[12:31] Darien Caldwell: if I read it right, I have a 100 prim parcel, i can only return 100 objects per hour?
[12:31] Rex Cronon: the new object return functions have so many restrictions that render them almost useless in case of a major griefing attack:(
[12:32] Levio Serenity: seems like it would have to revoke all perms to complete a deed
[12:32] Simon Linden: I assume it works for *ByID() just as it would if you returned it in-world
[12:32] Lucia Nightfire: all of which the latter can easily be exploited
[12:32] Simon Linden: but I'm making that up as we go along
[12:32] Lucia Nightfire: so the kellz is the one to ask about anything?
[12:33] Darien Caldwell: or is it 100LI worth of objects per hour
[12:33] Darien Caldwell: i'm unclear on the exchange rate ;p
[12:33] Whirly Fizzle: /bling off :D
[12:33] Simon Linden: Kelly wrote those new functions so he understands them better than anyone :)
[12:33] Qie Niangao: heh. good idea. maybe it should throttle by L$. :p
[12:33] Kelly Linden: you wish whirly
[12:33] Darien Caldwell: erp!
[12:33] Simon Linden: Good timing, Kelly
[12:33] Lucia Nightfire: yes, lol
[12:34] Darien Caldwell: nice beard
[12:34] Kelly Linden: Thanks Darien
[12:34] Lucia Nightfire: I just hope we only have whining and not screaming tomorrow, lol
[12:34] Lucia Nightfire: hi Kelly
[12:34] Darien Caldwell: so I have 100 prim parcel, what can I return per hour?
[12:34] Darien Caldwell: using the new prim return functions
[12:34] Kelly Linden: Darien: 100 objects
[12:34] Darien Caldwell: ok
[12:34] Lucia Nightfire: linksets?
[12:35] Kelly Linden: Lucia: correct
[12:35] Lucia Nightfire: so its not prim or land impact based
[12:35] Kelly Linden: The limit is set by the Land Impact for the parcel, but the count is of linksets returned
[12:35] Kelly Linden: so it is more generous.
[12:36] Jonathan Yap: Kelly, is that a rolling hour limit, or does the limit get reset when the minute hand is pointing up? :)
[12:36] Mona Eberhardt: And if a griefer has somehow rezzed 500 single-prim objects?
[12:36] Kelly Linden: It is intended that for most uses the throttle won't be hit. The throttle is there primarily to prevent a silent war between a rezzer and returner that could impact the back end servers.
[12:36] Lucia Nightfire: coalesced object dropping is a griefer vecotr you don't have a defense against
[12:36] Kelly Linden: Mona: on your 100 prim parcel? Let us know, that is a pretty big bug.
[12:37] Rex Cronon: u could punish the rezzer not the returner
[12:37] Mona Eberhardt: No, on a parcel that can take 500+ prims
[12:37] Kelly Linden: There are systems in place to punish the rezzer, though they aren't perfect.
[12:37] Lucia Nightfire: Can prims in limbo (SVC-7788) be returned by UUID? (not on the prim owner's list until selected, but still visible in the region and detectable by sensors)
[12:37] Jonathan Yap: Kelly, as those objects returned as individual objects or coalesced?
[12:37] Kelly Linden: Mona: Then you can return 500+ items
[12:37] Kelly Linden: Jonathan: coalesced
[12:37] Mona Eberhardt: Ah. OK. Now it becomes clear.
[12:37] Simon Linden: Are you still seeing any in limbo, Lucy?
[12:37] Lucia Nightfire: yes
[12:37] Kelly Linden: Also: These methods are NOT for handling griefing.
[12:37] Lucia Nightfire: I see them every friggin day, lol
[12:38] Levio Serenity: it will not return group deeded items even when specified by UUID, correct ?
[12:38] Lucia Nightfire: I have questions already compiled so I'll c/p as I go along
[12:38] Kelly Linden: Lucy: I'm not sure. Those items are in limbo due to a bug that I don't understand and have not investigated. I do not know how they will interact w/ these return functions.
[12:38] Lucia Nightfire: If an object with PERMISSION_RETURN_OBJECTS granted leaves the region, are permissions lost and/or is functionality bound to the region the perms were granted in?
[12:39] Kelly Linden: The permission acts as all other permissions do, I do not expect it to be lost on region cross. However in all cases it only works to return objects over the land of the object owner.
[12:39] Lucia Nightfire: Do these functions fail when called from an attachment? (post granting & attaching)
[12:39] katie Canucci: hi everyone im here about the griefers and to no how we can stop them
[12:40] Kelly Linden: So if you have land in region A and land in neighbor B but you don't want your object that you granted permissions to, to be able to return objects in neighbor B then don't move your object there.
[12:40] Levio Serenity: is the return limit specific to that script? or can you have multiple scripts out to go past the hourly limit?
[12:40] Kelly Linden: Lucy: No, these functions can work from attachments.
[12:40] Jonathan Yap: katie, we are talking about new LSL functions at the moment
[12:40] Lucia Nightfire: If a group owner grants object return perms and later leaves the group will their object still be able to return prims?
[12:40] Kelly Linden: The throttles are per object owner.
[12:40] Kelly Linden: Lucy: Yes.
[12:40] Lucia Nightfire: Do returns executed for temp objects or no trans deeded objects impact the return allowance?
[12:41] Kelly Linden: Lucy: Yes
[12:41] Lucia Nightfire: If prim return allowance is on a linkset basis, will there later be a function made available that gives land owners an idea of how many returns are available?
[12:41] Kelly Linden: Lucy: There are no plans at this time for such a function. Once these functions are in use, if that is a necessary thing then it could be investigated. I do not anticipate many people to really run into the throttle.
[12:41] Lucia Nightfire: Is the prim return allowance reset on region start?
[12:42] katie Canucci: is there a way to stop them crashing singers please
[12:42] Kelly Linden: Lucy: yes
[12:42] Lucia Nightfire: If return allowance is not reset on region start, does it observe the time difference between last server up time and restart time or will the value at the last sim state save be the same used on restart?
[12:42] Lucia Nightfire: lol, nvm
[12:42] Kelly Linden: Lucy N/A
[12:42] Lucia Nightfire: touche
[12:42] Lucia Nightfire: thats all I have that wasn't already answered
[12:42] Kelly Linden: And again: These functions are not for combating griefing.
[12:43] Andrew Linden: What are they for?
[12:43] Kelly Linden: Sandboxes and automated rental spaces.
[12:43] SNIM Outlander: KElly, any chance of a new LSL function similar to lPlaySound / llTriggerSound that is able to start the sound from a point other than 0 seconds?
[12:43] Lucia Nightfire: and moderate or early cleanup
[12:43] Kelly Linden: Nimmy: No such function is currently planned to my knowledge
[12:43] Levio Serenity: or a way to play a sound from a non hud attachment only for the wearer
[12:44] Kelly Linden: Tiger: Again, not currently planned to my knowledge.
[12:44] TankMaster Finesmith: if griffers have a way of crashing people's viewers, katie, have the people who crashed file a bug report with the maker of the viewer that crashed and hopefully the developers can fix the crash to prevent future crashes
[12:44] Rex Cronon: well. the thing is, boths sandboxes and rentals need these functions to combat griefing:)
[12:44] Rex Cronon: both*
[12:44] Shrike Rossini: Tank as stated before it's not the viewers they are crashing, it's the sim ..
[12:45] Kelly Linden: They may be useful for cleaning up after the source of griefing has been taken care of. But the throttles will probably prevent effective combat against any ongoing attack.
[12:45] Darien Caldwell: if anyone wants a sample script to try with llReturnObjectsbyOwner(), i wrote one last night. Lets you safeguard specific people's objects, and set who has access. http://pastebin.com/EYUWjBui
[12:45] Darien Caldwell: of course i haven't tested it yet :3
[12:46] Lucia Nightfire: speaking of crash modes, Simon can you have a look at SEC-1286 as it happened earlier and it may or may not be related to SEC-1277
[12:46] Techwolf Lupindo: Darien, can't use that script. There is no liecence headers.
[12:46] Kelly Linden: Darien: If you want some space on Aditi let me or maestro know and we can get you a parcel in a region on the correct version.
[12:46] Darien Caldwell: lol
[12:46] Techwolf Lupindo: :-0
[12:46] Techwolf Lupindo: :-)
[12:46] Darien Caldwell: i hereby put it in the public domain ;p
[12:46] Qie Niangao: So, on group-owned land, the object must be group-deeded, but permissions granted by an Owner of the Group, right? So the group-owner grants the permissions first, and the perms stick when they deed the object to group?
[12:46] Lucia Nightfire: Kelly I sent Maestro a request for taht, but haven't heard back
[12:47] Duckie Dickins: could a linden accidently use it and return a whole sim? :D
[12:47] Lucia Nightfire: I'm interested in testing the functions on aditi is it possibel to force some land to me there?
[12:47] Kelly Linden: Qie: The object can request permissions from a group owner when it is already owned by the group for this specific permission
[12:47] Qie Niangao: oh... okay.
[12:47] Qie Niangao: thanks.
[12:48] Kotzy Maesar: Hi everyone!
[12:48] Rex Cronon: hi
[12:48] Kelly Linden: Lucy: send me an IM so I don't forget, I'll work with maestro or caleb to get something setup on aditi.
[12:49] Simon Linden: Lucy - there's a fix for that in the pipeline, it's in the next maintenance release after the one about to go out
[12:50] Simon Linden: SEC-1286, I mean
[12:50] Lucia Nightfire: nice, as theres no way to defend against it, lol
[12:51] Lucia Nightfire: I'm just glad I can narrow it down to who was responsisble
[12:52] Simon Linden: yeah, it's a ugly crash, because sometimes the region gets saved with the griefing objects, so it comes back up and promptly crashes again
[12:53] Lucia Nightfire: yes, seen taht before and it usually results in a much older state being brought back up, had one one time go back 19 hours when onyl 30 minutes was affected
[12:53] Lucia Nightfire: and teh region was running fine before that as I was there for a few hours
[12:53] Levio Serenity: question: during a normal controlled rolling restart of a region, should the sim not be saved right before shutting down and not experience a ~15 min rollback ?
[12:53] Mona Eberhardt: A while ago, you guys had introduced a tiling fix for snapshots of a size larger than that of the viewer window. This, however, still caused the ire of those people who believe they *have* to take snapshots of a resolution higher than that of the most expensive DSLRs (as if they're ever going to print at A0 and 300dpi, but anyway). Now a new fix came to placate them, but this "fix" makes the tiling issue re-emerge in resolutions between viewer window size and ridiculous. Most of us don't have *any* use fo 40-megapixel snapshots. What will be done about it?
[12:54] Simon Linden: Yes Tiger, it should come back up in the state at shutdown
[12:54] Lucia Nightfire: Levio https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7959
[12:54] Kitto Flora: What?? Automatic roll-back to recover from a crash? Andrew???
[12:54] Levio Serenity: we get reports every week that peoples meeroos have been rolled back from normal restarts. i can see after a crash it happening
[12:54] Andrew Linden: Kitto, there is no automatic roll-back... unless the region actually failed to save state when it crashed.
[12:54] Simon Linden: I'm not sure Mona - this group focuses mostly on server issues, as we're not viewer developers
[12:55] Mona Eberhardt: ok
[12:55] Kitto Flora: Lucy is claiming a 19-hour roll back....Andrew ...
[12:55] Jonathan Yap: Mona, you can try asking that at Oz's office hours
[12:55] Andrew Linden: Most crashes don't suffer from that problem. It only happens if the code that saves state also crashes (double crash).
[12:55] Simon Linden: Do you know if there's a BUG jira filed on it?
[12:55] Whirly Fizzle: Mona, Firestorm had lots of complaints about this too after we picked up the toling fix
[12:55] Lucia Nightfire: Kitto taht was with a certain crash mode
[12:55] Whirly Fizzle: Yeah, they are filed, hang on....
[12:55] Darien Caldwell: yeah i've seen it happen, had a jira about it myself in the SEC area
[12:55] Darien Caldwell: but nothing ever came of it
[12:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[12:56] Andrew Linden: I don't have all the data on that 19 hour rollback. I'm skeptical, but I'll give Lucy the benefit of the doubt.
[12:56] Lucia Nightfire: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SEC-1223 <--heres one with a 24 hour server time loss after a griefing event Andrew, lol
[12:57] Kitto Flora: Well - Wengen is back to crashing a couple times a day... only good thing is - it eventually recovers on its own. I still see double-crashes.
[12:57] Darien Caldwell: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SEC-1102
[12:57] TankMaster Finesmith: mono, LL has some fixes for that in the works, theres also a partial fix in the next release of FS for it
[12:58] TankMaster Finesmith: regarding the tile snapshot fix issues
[12:58] Simon Linden: The rollbacks are not automatic, AFAIK. So someone from support probably had to intervene, and so that might be a factor depending on how they pick which one to rollback to
[12:58] Whirly Fizzle: Mona, original bug that the tiling fix was for was MAINT-628. This caused side effects of https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-1094 and https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-1140 and https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-1214 (you can see those publicly here: http://jira.phoenixviewer.com/browse/FIRE-9097 , http://jira.phoenixviewer.com/browse/FIRE-9878 )
[12:58] Andrew Linden: I can think of one rare problem that might cause a very long rollback... if the region had been failing to save state for all of those hours.
[12:59] Mona Eberhardt: Thank you Whirly.
[12:59] Jonathan Yap: how often is state saved normally?
[12:59] Andrew Linden: Which has happened in the past when the "save the state" code was crashing, but not the main process.
[12:59] Andrew Linden: Usually once an hour I think, Jonathan.
[12:59] Darien Caldwell: could be it's fixed by now, i've not seen it happen in awhile
[12:59] Darien Caldwell: but haven't really been looking either
[13:00] Lucia Nightfire: I can understand failed sim states when there is lag but not with perfectly running regions. I've seen those long roll backs with perfect running regions as well.
[13:00] Andrew Linden: Jonathan: yes, Denby is currently saving state hourlyl.
[13:00] Kitto Flora: Welll - taking a wider view - if the Griefer(s) who caused the Crashes got banned - we'd not care so much about the crashes.
[13:00] Dallas Winslet: there u go
[13:00] Kitto Flora: So - Who wants to see griefers banned . Permanently?
[13:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[13:01] Darien Caldwell: find a way to do that, and sure :)
[13:01] Simon Linden: Let me know when you figure out a way to identify them ... and not with IP matching
[13:01] Nalates Urriah: Kitto, if you can do it, the Lab will probably hire you.
[13:01] Darien Caldwell: but free accounts, changing IPs, pretty hard to be permanent
[13:01] Dallas Winslet: mac address
[13:01] Rex Cronon: u mean throwaway-alts kitto:)
[13:01] TankMaster Finesmith: banning giffere's accounts generally doesnt do any good, as either they get around the ban with special viewers, or just create new accounts
[13:01] Darien Caldwell: changing mac
[13:01] Lucia Nightfire: throwaway accounts come and go all teh time.
[13:01] Petr Topaz: They will just make Alts
[13:01] Darien Caldwell: changing a mac is trival these days
[13:01] Dallas Winslet: yup
[13:01] Duckie Dickins: you can change your mac addres in windows
[13:01] Andrew Linden: MAC address is the easiest thing to change.
[13:01] Duckie Dickins: not sure if you can change your harddrive serial number though. :D
[13:01] Kitto Flora: Yes - and their alts - Basically - ban by IP #
[13:02] Dallas Winslet: if they calling functions to make them loop
[13:02] katie Canucci: i want the griefers banned
[13:02] Dallas Winslet: and steal resources
[13:02] Lucia Nightfire: there will always be griefers
[13:02] SNIM Outlander: Mhm
[13:02] Nya Raymaker: I think it's more likely that people who accidentially rez naked get banned than to actually get rid of real griefers.
[13:02] Lucia Nightfire: there will always be copybotters
[13:02] Dallas Winslet: then there should be away to have amonitor of that
[13:02] Darien Caldwell: one might argue griefers are LL's most loyal customers :p
[13:02] Lucia Nightfire: there is, but its nto high priorty atm it seems, heh
[13:02] SNIM Outlander: All technology is used for both good and evil.
[13:03] Andrew Linden: I've got some ideas on more advanced anti-griefer response. I hope to start exploring some of those ideas soon.
[13:03] Nalates Urriah: Duckie, how does the HD ser# get to SL? Via the viewer, which can be modified to report any ser# the user wants. That's not gonna work.
[13:03] Mona Eberhardt: I wonder how many of the 400,000 new sign-ups/month are actually throwaway alts for people who try to grief others and run an army of sockpuppets to troll on the feeds and the forums. :/
[13:03] MarkSeery Melodie: And right now they run around the grid with impunity and AR's dont even get acknowledged
[13:03] Rex Cronon: actually u can ban griefers if u make llviewr an app on xbox:)
[13:03] Levio Serenity: im guessing 90% of them mona
[13:03] Lucia Nightfire: funny rex
[13:03] Kotzy Maesar: Currently there is a greifer team of 2 people. Two people are are responsible for a huge number of crashes! Even crashing one sim in one hour. This MUST be costing immensly.
[13:03] Dallas Winslet: lol
[13:03] Lucia Nightfire: kotzy, its much larger than that
[13:04] Kotzy Maesar: Umm I mean one sim 3 times in amm hour.
[13:04] Lucia Nightfire: but not all of them work together
[13:04] Kotzy Maesar: Certainly there are more than 2 greifers
[13:04] Darien Caldwell: you can also change your HD serial # fairly easily too
[13:04] Mona Eberhardt: Heh. Koz, I know of an infamous group of forum/feed cyberbullies who enjoy impunity and their "leader" also has an army of alts.
[13:04] Kitto Flora: Folks - Read what Andrw said - new idea on Banning ... How many would like to see Andrw work on *that* rather than any other bug... even border crossing bugs?
[13:04] Mona Eberhardt: But anyway.
[13:05] Kotzy Maesar: I am more familiar with a team of two, changing avs almost daily - all the crashes I am hearing of are them.
[13:05] SNIM Outlander: Nope, classic banhammer all the way :)
[13:05] Kallista Destiny: YES death to griefers!!!!
[13:05] Simon Linden: You can get some relief by locking down your land, but that's tough to do for a public venue since you want to attract new folks
[13:05] Lucia Nightfire: I'm in favor for giving land owner's the ability to restrict some of teh grief vectors that are commonly exploited
[13:05] Andrew Linden: Kotzy, send me an IM with some names of alts of those two griefers.
[13:05] Rex Cronon: ask membership fee:)
[13:05] TankMaster Finesmith: you cant stop griffing entierly, but you can make it harder which would be an improvement
[13:05] Shrike Rossini: Yes Koz, they are known ... but there now appear to be others two ... and not just alts of the above mentioned
[13:05] Kelly Linden: I must run. Sorry for being late, have a good week all.
[13:06] Mona Eberhardt: Simon, that still doesn't stop bullies from abusing people through the feeds, which are a free-for-all.
[13:06] Rex Cronon: tc kelly
[13:06] Kitto Flora: Simon - I'd love to lock down public land. Can I get perm to set ban list for Maint. land?
[13:06] TankMaster Finesmith: tc kelly
[13:06] Andrew Linden: I'm interested in doing some research to see what kind of trail they leave within our servers.
[13:06] Darien Caldwell: bye Kelly
[13:06] MarkSeery Melodie: widely known
[13:06] Kotzy Maesar: ok Andrew
[13:06] Levio Serenity: ty for the new toys kelly!!
[13:06] Lucia Nightfire: thanks kelly
[13:06] Mona Eberhardt: And the "trending" and "sample posts" were daft ideas.
[13:06] Mona Eberhardt: See you Kelly.
[13:06] Simon Linden: Yes Mona -- people will always be able to be rude
[13:06] Nalates Urriah: Thx Kellz
[13:06] Mona Eberhardt: Simon, it's worse: we're talking harassment.
[13:06] TankMaster Finesmith: so... baker... about the group ban list thingy...?? :P
[13:06] Simon Linden: I have to run away too ... thanks everyone for coming today
[13:06] Nalates Urriah: Thx Lindens
[13:06] Mona Eberhardt: And Lori Drew-grade cyberbullying.
[13:06] Andrew Linden: cheers
[13:06] Adamburp Adamczyk: doe the transcript of this get posted anwhere? i only just got here too lat etoday
[13:06] Darien Caldwell: bye Simon
[13:06] Mona Eberhardt: Thank you Lindens.
[13:07] TankMaster Finesmith: tc simon and andrew
[13:07] Kallista Destiny: thanks lindens
[13:07] Yuzuru Jewell: Thank you , Lindens.
[13:07] Rex Cronon: u can say: in order to rez of 256 prims u need to have 256$L in your account:)
[13:07] Lucia Nightfire: Andrew, look at my SEC's I covered plenty of grief vectors that crash regions or fill them instantly or remotely
[13:07] Rex Cronon: tc simon
[13:07] Kotzy Maesar: Yes Mna, they make RL threats also
[13:07] Simon Linden: Transcripts are linked here : http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Simulator_User_Group
[13:07] Adamburp Adamczyk: thx si, happy birthday too btw
[13:07] katie Canucci: they made rl threats to dallas
[13:08] Mona Eberhardt: Yes Koz, and at best they just get a slap on the wrist.
[13:08] Mona Eberhardt: Harassment should be considered griefing.
[13:08] Mona Eberhardt: Period.
[13:08] katie Canucci: scared the life out of him
Simulator_User_Group
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