Open Development User Group/Archive/2011-04-18

07:00 	Office Orb  	mail_to set to oz@lindenlab.com
  	  	Start transcription to oz@lindenlab.com
  	  	Transcript will be sent to: oz@lindenlab.com
  	Wolfpup  	hey Jonathan
  	Oz Linden  	Hi everyone
  	Morgaine Dinova  	I think we can objective about the new physics here, no need for the giggle factor. Make something else wobble if breasts are a problem.
  	  	How's it going Oz?
07:01 	Oz Linden  	now there's an interesting point to enter a conversation....
  	Morgaine Dinova  	:P
  	Discrete Dreamscape 	o.o
07:03 	Oz Linden  	Looks like we have only one pretty easy looking issue in OPEN this morning, which I just ack'ed
  	  	so our agenda is open ....
07:05 	Discrete Dreamscape 	Is this supposed to be limited to OPEN issues? o:
  	Oz Linden  	anything open source related is fair game
07:06 	Discrete Dreamscape 	The Linux bug I reported a couple weeks back is a little bit goofier than I thought and could use some comments from.. anyone else who uses Linux.
  	Oz Linden  	got an issue id?
  	Discrete Dreamscape 	STORM-1122, code review at
  	Office Orb  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-1122
STORM-1122 Linux viewer sucks up file descriptors, stops loading content and crashes
  	Discrete Dreamscape 	https://codereview.secondlife.com/r/245/
  	  	The little change I made is not really a solution as it stands.
07:07 	Oz Linden  	it sounds like it's some improvement, though, no?
  	Discrete Dreamscape 	It is.. although it destroys Unicode support.
  	Kopile Hallard  	/
  	Oz Linden  	oh... that's not good
  	  	Boroondas would never let me hear the end of it
07:08 	Kopile Hallard  	if I could compile the viewer on linux I would give you feedback Discrete
  	Discrete Dreamscape 	On the other two platforms, it's fine for them not to search fallback lists, because they're generally counted on to have full unicode between the various fonts installed, and they're clearly listed in fonts.xml.
  	  	But on Linux, no such fonts are listed, I guess because there are no standard fonts to assume users have, or.. whatever.
07:09 	Kopile Hallard  	can never really assume what fonts someone will have, which is why web browsers specify a family and not a font
07:10 	  	websites*
  	Discrete Dreamscape 	There are three options as far as I see. 1) Someone fixes the really hair font fallback code, 2) A set of supporting fonts is determined to exist on most systems and added to fonts.xml, or 3) a set of fonts for this is inclued with the viewer.
  	  	Yeah..
07:11 	Kopile Hallard  	a set of open source fonts included with the viewer would be safest imho, that way you can always be sure someone has those fonts
  	Oz Linden  	Would including fonts with the viewer really work, though?
  	Discrete Dreamscape 	It would definitely work if they're defined in fonts.xml for Linux
  	Oz Linden  	could we do it in a way that put them where the viewer would use them without messing with system fonts?
  	Discrete Dreamscape 	The problem there, though, is finding the fonts and the fact that decent Unicode support is rather large.
07:12 	Kopile Hallard  	also it adds the ability to ensure fonts render the same irrelevent of OS
  	Oz Linden  	making the downloads significantly larger is never an easy sell
  	Discrete Dreamscape 	That's true. It would be ideal if size could be kept down while making unicode support universal.
  	  	Not everyone even has MS Arial Unicode, which is assumed on Windows.
  	Morgaine Dinova  	Would it work regardless of sizing? Remember that we have everything from smartphones to wall displays.
07:13 	Oz Linden  	Even if we did include fonts, I would not want to do it for Mac or Windows
  	Kopile Hallard  	prehaps just enough to fit a certian standard of unicode, like utf16 or something
  	Discrete Dreamscape 	I see
  	Kopile Hallard  	why not for mac or windows?
  	Oz Linden  	wishes we had smartphones, or even tablets
  	Discrete Dreamscape 	Well, uh.. if your smartphone can run SL, somehow I doubt Unicode is your major concern. d;
  	Oz Linden  	because we don't have a significant font problem there, so there's no motivation that justifies larger downloads
  	Discrete Dreamscape 	nods.
07:14 	  	I don't know what guidelines, if any, exist for figuring out how much support is needed.
  	Kopile Hallard  	guess, if you are happy with the msfonts
  	Discrete Dreamscape 	But it would be nice to have it in there by default..
07:15 	Morgaine Dinova  	I would err on the side of "download less", rather than more.
  	Kopile Hallard  	I know jjacke speant a lot of time with imprudence trying to iron out font issues
  	Oz Linden  	Have you tried to figure out why the viewer is trying to use so many fonts?
07:16 	  	why isn't this just a question of fixing the search?
  	Discrete Dreamscape 	Oh yes, I talked it over with a friend.. apparently it makes a list of every possible fallback font it could want, then loads each of those for all possible style variations and size variations that the viewer uses, or something like that.
  	  	And the code is unfamiliar to me, or I would already have patched it. >:
07:17 	Oz Linden  	how many different fonts does the viewer really need? Mine only seems to be using one basic font in a couple of sizes, with bold and italic variations
07:18 	Discrete Dreamscape 	For everything except Unicode, the viewer already provides the DejaVu family, which is minimal and nice. For everything else, I would suspect 5 or less on top of that, loaded a few times over for their variations.
  	Wolfpup  	Oz that sound like it might be an issue in the font generation on linuix systems similar to the issue we had when switching to then new build system where the fons were rendered the wronr size
  	Kopile Hallard  	pretty sure most distributions of linux have dajavu
07:19 	Oz Linden  	Maybe the thing to do is to throw out the fallback searching altogether, and if the font specified in fonts.xml is not found, pop up a font selector and make the user choose from those on the system that have the right combination of properties.
  	Discrete Dreamscape 	o.0
  	  	I can't say I'd be very partial to doing that.. d;
07:20 	Kopile Hallard  	a lot of users know nothing about fonts
  	Wolfpup  	or sugest the user get the font
  	  	and include instruction on how to get them
  	Morgaine Dinova  	grep var.cache.fontconfig | wc -l
19
  	Kopile Hallard  	or wgets the font for the user and uses it?
  	Oz Linden  	you don't have to know much about fonts to pick from a list of lines that say "The quick brown fox...."
  	Discrete Dreamscape 	That's getting unfortunately close to the stuff I did in Emerald.. 'hey, download this thing here,' and it was always not fun.
07:21 	Morgaine Dinova  	Ie. Impy has file descriptors to 19 font files open.
  	Kopile Hallard  	yes you do when talking about unicode
  	Oz Linden  	I'd bet there's an existing font picker widget out there somewhere that we could incorporate
  	Discrete Dreamscape 	egrep -o '[^ ]*font[^ ]*' | sort | uniq -c | less
07:22 	Morgaine Dinova  	I specifically wanted the ones in font cache though
  	Discrete Dreamscape 	oic!
07:23 	Morgaine Dinova  	egrep -o '[^ ]*font[^ ]*' | sort | uniq -c | wc -l
53
  	Discrete Dreamscape 	Well.. since I don't have any power over what is included with the viewer, nor a guideline for what kind of support Linden Lab wants, I'll try fixing the fallback code still..
  	  	That's not bad Morgaine.
07:24 	  	That's what I have right now too, with zero Unicode support.
  	Kopile Hallard  	"the quick brown fox" does not show me what Japanese Characters render as, for example.
  	Oz Linden  	I can't imagine that there's any good reason to open that many files and keep them open.... I'd make fixing that your central idea :-)
  	Discrete Dreamscape 	>_<
07:25 	  	I'll try! I wish I had more of a clue what it's doing.
  	Oz Linden  	so you make or find a better picker that let's you specify your own test line
  	  	Have you looked at 'hg blame' to see who wrote it?
07:26 	Discrete Dreamscape 	I think it's pretty ancient.. that's a good idea; I'll try finding it.
  	Wolfpup  	Kanji can use one character for many words
07:27 	Oz Linden  	If you need help tracking down the author, let me know... I may have address data you won't
  	Discrete Dreamscape 	Cool, much appreciated.
  	oobscure  	Oz: I did lot of testing about VWR-25506 in the last days and got some interesting results. Could you give it a look? I'd need to know if ...should I repeat the tests I did - or should I consider different scenarios? for example, a different (higher? lower?...) number of items
  	Office Orb  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25506
VWR-25506 Investigate restrictions on storing and exchanging inventory items within prims and notecards
  	Wolfpup  	fr instance here is the kanji for the quick brown fox >動きの速い茶色のキツネ
07:28 	Oz Linden  	I saw your notes oo..
  	Kopile Hallard  	chuckles, unfortunately that doesn't show all the thousand possibilities of kunji though
07:31 	Oz Linden  	I'm going to ask for some Lindens to have a look at your findings, oobscure
  	Wolfpup  	oz in reference to open-52 im going to make change sets for each of the files to be deleted so that if they need to be reinstated later the proper change set can just be reveresed
  	Office Orb  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-52
OPEN-52 Superfluous source files
  	Oz Linden  	good idea
07:32 	oobscure  	ok. so I'll wait and no more testing until I hear news.
  	Oz Linden  	when you've got a repo set up, let me know and I'll run a test TeamCity build
  	Wolfpup  	well i have the base repository now
  	  	just nothing commited to it yet
07:33 	Oz Linden  	good
  	Wolfpup  	hav not had the time since i set up the repository
  	Discrete Dreamscape 	Seems like the font thing was wirtten by Moss, with small updates by CG and Tofu.. showed up in 3e2f24235be3
07:34 	Wolfpup  	im going to use notepad++'s search in files feature to find all references to each of the files as i delet it
  	Discrete Dreamscape 	Or merged by Moss, I guess.
  	Jonathan  	Wolfpup, you will have to delete #include lines that reference .h files you eliminate
07:35 	Wolfpup  	i know and that is why im going to use the search funcetion in notepad++ to help with this
  	  	it will make it quicker
  	Oz Linden  	I don't know if he's around much - try 'Tofu Buzzard' in-world
07:36 	Discrete Dreamscape 	nods.
  	Wolfpup  	instead of having to multiple build runs for each file
  	Oz Linden  	Moss == Tofu
07:37 	Discrete Dreamscape 	Ahhh
  	Wolfpup  	Oz i have a question for you in reference to open-9
  	Office Orb  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-9
OPEN-9 Generate Logs in Opensource Envrionment on Windows
  	Oz Linden  	shoot, Wolfpup
07:38 	Wolfpup  	when you do your local build it is only on mac right?
  	Oz Linden  	yes, I don't have a windows dev box at the moment
  	Wolfpup  	do you keep a record of any particular build run?
07:39 	Oz Linden  	don't know what you mean... windows build logs?
  	Wolfpup  	or just a build log in general that shows the progress of the build
  	Jonathan  	Wolfpup, are you talking about having your autobuild compile go to both the screen and to a file?
07:40 	Wolfpup  	yes
  	Jonathan  	I think you already have a workaround for that, or you could use the IDE.
  	Wolfpup  	C:\cygwin\bin\tee <build log name> to the end of the cmd line to do that
07:41 	Discrete Dreamscape 	tee is a wonderful tool. ;D
  	Wolfpup  	but it would be nice and easier if that could be done automaticaly and then each dev would have it avail
07:42 	Oz Linden  	you mean have the build by default create a log file of the command outputs?
  	Wolfpup  	both internaly to LL for local build and externaly for OS devs
  	  	and then compilers output
  	Jonathan  	Oz, that is what the IDE does -- wolfpup is used to what vs2005 did automatically
07:43 	Oz Linden  	I certainly would not want that in my builds....
  	  	terminal scrollback is all I need as a rule
  	Wolfpup  	it is a seperat file that could be stored else where like the build tree and not with the sorce its self
07:44 	  	but how far back can you scroll?
  	Jonathan  	wolfpup, you can adjust the scrollback buffer
  	Wolfpup  	currently the output from a windows build is nearly 30K lines of text
07:45 	Jonathan  	dunno if you can adjust it that much though
  	Oz Linden  	I have mine set to infinite (which is of course limited to the size of my disk, but I don't have to manage it)
  	Wolfpup  	yes you can but it ends up eating memory
07:46 	  	and im trying to think of those like me with limited memory
  	Oz Linden  	that sounds like a perfect thing to build an alias or shell wrapper function for....
  	Discrete Dreamscape 	Windows is verbose!.. I have 10k in my scrollback on Linux and I don't fill it..
  	Jonathan  	Oz, is there any update on that build farm you were getting set up that would let us send up a repo to be compiled?
07:47 	Oz Linden  	We're setting up the router for it this week
  	Wolfpup  	Oz that was what i was thinking as make it an option as part of the autobuild system
  	Morgaine Dinova  	Discrete: we seem to do things the same way. :-) All my building is done though a capture script too.
  	Kopile Hallard  	may I point out how ironic it is that the majority of people compiling v2 are using a non opensource os
  	Jonathan  	so, it will be available in the near future? (woo hoo)
  	Kopile Hallard  	do you just redirect output morgaine?
  	Oz Linden  	why is that ironic? most of the people using it are on non-open os'es too
07:48 	Kopile Hallard  	depends what you mean by use and people
  	Discrete Dreamscape 	Linux is a pain in the ass. I just know how to avoid all the problems with it. I know a lot of my friends can't use it for various reasons. d:
  	Morgaine Dinova  	Kopi: like Discrete, it's tee'd
  	Kopile Hallard  	the majority of web servers are unix based
  	Wolfpup  	\o/ OS dev build farm
07:49 	Oz Linden  	As big a fan of Linux as I am, it's not even close to ready for mass market level ease of use for non-geeks
  	Morgaine Dinova  	Lots of things are not ideal in Linux, and one shouldn't be a fanboi. That's best left to Mac and Windows faithful. :-)
  	Discrete Dreamscape 	Yep. >:
  	Kopile Hallard  	lol
07:50 	Wolfpup  	i 'cut my teeth' on linux so to speak
  	Oz Linden  	I'm going to make some progress on the build farm this week; at the very least the network I need set up for the Mac build agents will be installed
  	Morgaine Dinova  	From criticism comes progress, From fanboiism comes slavery to a master and stagnation to suit business interests.
07:51 	Discrete Dreamscape 	Will the scripts and whatnot that operate builds be open source? I'm curious to know how you guys will do it. d;
  	Oz Linden  	I don't know when it'll be ready for trials, though... there are many moving parts, and some of the folks I'll need help from to finish setting it all up are pretty busy these days
  	  	They are open now
  	Wolfpup  	Discrete the autobuild system is OS
07:52 	Discrete Dreamscape 	Autobuild is, but.. wait, is there some stuff I'm missing? o.o
  	Oz Linden  	bitbucket.org/lindenlab/buildscripts
  	Discrete Dreamscape 	I have and use autobuild, but.. Ahhhh
  	  	I see
  	Wolfpup  	all you have to do is get the autobuild repository and then run setup install and your good to go
  	Jonathan  	autobuild is used in the build farm too
  	Oz Linden  	those are the scripts used by our TeamCity builds
  	Jonathan  	no need to even run setup install -- just access it in the bin directory
  	Discrete Dreamscape 	Nifty!
07:53 	Oz Linden  	once the build system is set up, CG is going to do an in-world class for us on it
  	Discrete Dreamscape 	Awesome.
  	Jonathan  	will there be some web interface where we point it to a repo we want compiled?
  	Morgaine Dinova  	That's cool Oz. CG++
  	Kopile Hallard  	D
  	Discrete Dreamscape 	Autobuild in general confuses the crap out of me right now, it's kinda clunky IMO.
  	Oz Linden  	Yes... it will be an instance of TeamCity
07:54 	  	it's pretty good stuff
  	Kopile Hallard  	build.sh is clunky for sure
  	  	but seems like it could do a lot
  	Oz Linden  	setting up a viewer build takes a little doing, but once you get used to it it's not bad
  	Discrete Dreamscape 	nods.
  	Kopile Hallard  	will these 'classes' cover 64bit builds?
  	Oz Linden  	and you get a lot for it
07:55 	Jonathan  	I have had to make a number of hackish changes to get autobuild+vs2010 express to work
  	Discrete Dreamscape 	I totally gave up on 64 bit before.. After spending like 2 hours compiling llqtwebkit once to end up with no working media.. meh.
07:56 	  	5 minutes! I've gotta run, see yas!
  	Morgaine Dinova  	Giving up after 2 hours is a low threshold. :P Sympathies :-)
  	Kopile Hallard  	you could probably pull a copy of llqtwebkit from kokua
  	Discrete Dreamscape 	d;
  	Morgaine Dinova  	Cya Discrete
07:57 	Kopile Hallard  	already offline :/
  	Oz Linden  	The build farm will not be set up for 64 bit builds
  	Jonathan  	When I set up to compile last year it took me 3 tries and I don't know how many days to finally get things right, so don't give up too easily
  	Oz Linden  	but it's possible to do them now by hand
  	  	I'm going to work on the wiki docs on that some more
  	Kopile Hallard  	thanks
  	Oz Linden  	basically you'll have to download and build local packages for each of the dependencies
  	Wolfpup  	i hope he dose the class when i can be around
07:58 	Kopile Hallard  	so a standalone build?
  	Oz Linden  	I'm going to get Torley to record it (or teach me how to record IW video,perhaps)
  	Morgaine Dinova  	It's always been possible to do 64-bit builds, right back to when the viewer was released as open source. And lots of people are doing so (I used to too). So why is the company shying away from actually releasing 64-bit?
  	Oz Linden  	no... standalone is different and harder
  	Kopile Hallard  	ah
  	oobscure  	GLC for taking video on SL/Linux works fine. lt me know if you need help with that
  	  	Also...Oz, I saw you reported problems with Favorites in Login screen -- STORM-1145 -- is that fixed now for you? because on my Linux installation, it keeps happening. But Seth can't reproduce my steps. I wonder if there's something wrong in my system
  	Office Orb  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-1145
STORM-1145 Changes to Favorites are not reflected on the login locations menu
  	Wolfpup  	Kopile not realy you can use the file:/// method to point to your new packages once they are made
  	Jonathan  	Oz, please get someone to record that class -- having that for on-demand viewing might be helpful
07:59 	Oz Linden  	when you build a library with autobuilld, you get a package (basically a tarball)
  	Kopile Hallard  	heh?
  	Oz Linden  	that package can then be used as an input to any other autobuild, without installing it on the system
  	Kopile Hallard  	ahh cool
08:00 	Office Orb  	Your timer has expired!
  	Oz Linden  	so if you build each of the dependencies once, you should then be able to build viewers using them
  	Kopile Hallard  	cool
  	  	thanks
  	Wolfpup  	Kopile i use the file url method for fmod one i made the needed package
  	Morgaine Dinova  	Back in Robla's days, we even used to discuss what was needed to get 64-bit releases on the road with Philip present at the meetings. Dunno why it's all regressed.
  	Oz Linden  	it should be slightly easier than it is, but it's not nearly as hard as getting all the dependencies installed on an arbitrary linux distro
08:01 	Jonathan  	Would there be any advantage in having a 64 bit windows version?
  	Kopile Hallard  	RAM
  	Morgaine Dinova  	ram
  	  	:P
  	Jonathan  	That might be the driving force for a general conversion to 64 bit
  	Wolfpup  	not realy Jonathan as windows automatacily handles the 64/32 transition
  	Oz Linden  	It's just a priority/cost thing
08:02 	  	eventually it will happen, but don't ask me when eventually is :-)
  	  	I've got to go folks.... thanks for stopping by
  	Office Orb  	End transcription