Open Source Meeting/2009-02-19

Open source meeting - Thursday, 2pm PT.
Teleport to the Linden Open Source Project headquarters.
== Agenda ==
* Any followup on needed? -- Rob Linden 21:28, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
* Steve Linden's email "Looking at I18N formatting standards" - suggestions? - Rob Linden 21:28, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
* http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-2360 - viewer stats publishing
* In-world group to use as announcement channel for meetings/etc
== Transcript ==
* [14:01] Soft Linden: Bagh. We have a "pingall" command on our internal IRC that says the name of everyone in the channel
* [14:01] Soft Linden: And then I have a trigger that pipes any line with my name in it into a voice program so I can hear IRC without having to switch over
* [14:01] Soft Linden: That combination is bad!
* [14:01] Q Linden: Hah
* [14:02] Rob Linden: points and laughs
* [14:02] Rob Linden: figuratively, of course
* [14:02] Q Linden: I think that anyone using pingall should have to put up with 5 random pings durign th rest of the day
* [14:02] Rob Linden: hi all
* [14:02] Soft Linden: Khyota is LOLing at me >:(
* [14:03] Khyota Wulluf: giggles
* [14:03] Soft Linden: Oh yeah. When Data Linden used pingall too many times, I started lecturing about databases, databank, data retention policy, etc
* [14:04] Rob Linden: agenda avaiable here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source_Meeting/Agenda
* [14:04] Rob Linden: or by hitting the "play" button to see it over to my left
* [14:05] Robin Cornelius: ooh forgot my issue
* [14:05] Rob Linden: notices Robin hiding behind the agenda
* [14:05] Robin Cornelius: heh having 3d issues
* [14:05] Rob Linden: ah...text client
* [14:05] Rob Linden: std disclaimer: transcript for this meeting will be posted on wiki.secondlife.com. keep that in mind as you type
* [14:05] Khyota Wulluf: 3D? working okish?
* [14:06] Rob Linden: Robin: what was the item you wanted to add to the agenda?
* [14:06] Robin Cornelius: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-2360
* [14:07] Robin Cornelius: think we taked with soft in IRC about it
* [14:07] Rob Linden: k...we'll tack that on the end
* [14:07] Rob Linden: we should be able to get through the first two pretty quickly
* [14:07] Rob Linden: 1. Any followup on VWR-8049[c
* [14:07] Rob Linden: very spirited discussion last week. did we cover everything?
* [14:08] Rob Linden: I put this on the agenda less as something to discuss, and more as a reminder to keep things alive on the mailing list if this is your thing
* [14:08] Soft Linden: one thing we talked about last week was getting JIRAs linked up for the different asset types, as they'd likely be implemented one at a time
* [14:09] Soft Linden: I'm searching - is there a meta for the internal counterparts we listed?
* [14:09] Soft Linden: Looking like no
* [14:10] Rob Linden: the meta, I think, would be VWR-8049
* [14:10] Soft Linden: k
* [14:10] Soft Linden: I'll create related issues now
* [14:10] Rob Linden: okee doke.
* [14:11] Rob Linden: thanks!
* [14:11] Rob Linden: was hoping to guilt someone else into doing it ;-)
* [14:11] Soft Linden: I'll create titles/summaries - let someone flesh 'em out if they like!
* [14:12] Rob Linden: anything else to discuss on this one?
* [14:12] Rob Linden: k....moving on
* [14:13] Rob Linden: Steve Linden's email "Looking at I18N formatting standards" - suggestions? - Rob Linden 21:28, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
* [14:13] Rob Linden: there was finally one response on this from Alissa. any other suggestions?
* [14:14] Thickbrick Sleaford: (sorry whoever I accidentaly crashed on...)
* [14:15] Q Linden: I think Alissa's response didn't really address the actual challenge, which was to put control of formatting into the hands of the translators
* [14:15] Rob Linden: I'm guessing either: a) no one has suggestions, or b) folks might be confused about the question
* [14:16] Rob Linden: Q: I think you may have a better grip on what Steve is asking for than I am. He's looking for standard syntax for substitution within a string?
* [14:16] Q Linden: yes
* [14:16] Rob Linden: Alissa finally rolls around to that part of it at the end, suggesting shell-like syntax
* [14:16] Q Linden: in particular, though, some mechanism for allowing the data available (say, a date) to be formatted properly for the localization
* [14:17] Rob Linden: ...but the answer appears to be "no, there's not a standard"
* [14:17] Q Linden: right
* [14:17] Q Linden: so I think that steve's proposal is probably close to what we'll implement
* [14:17] Thomas Shikami: ohh, one thing that confused me about dates was, that in group notices, these are shown in local time, not pacific time
* [14:18] Thickbrick Sleaford: I know close to nothing about this, but isn't gnu gettext the sort-of standard for open source programs for this?
* [14:19] Q Linden: waits for Robla to laugh at me
* [14:19] Rob Linden: :)
* [14:19] Soft Linden: Bagh, where Thomas? In the popup, list, ?
* [14:19] Soft Linden: That shouldn't be.
* [14:19] Q Linden: Thickbrick, I just wrote a long, internal rant about how lame gettext is
* [14:19] Thickbrick Sleaford: ah
* [14:19] Thomas Shikami: in the blue dialog popping up, that's true for the acquisition dates of parcels as well
* [14:20] Thomas Shikami: for me for this parcel, it says, Claimed: Wed Aug 20 23:44:13 2008
* [14:20] Soft Linden: Thanks. Those should be fixed.
* [14:20] Q Linden: thickbrick, I could elaborate, but let's just say that it doesn't solve most of the problems we're trying to address
* [14:20] Rob Linden: for dates in particular, there is strptime, which is ugly, but has at least evolved to fit most needs
* [14:22] Q Linden: the short version is that we need a system that can generate either of these from the same functioncall with the same arguments in the same order, with the only change being the format string:
* [14:23] Q Linden: "On July 18 at 8:00 PM, Q was born" or "Q was born at 2000 hours on 18 July"
* [14:24] Q Linden: I think we have a pretty good design for a system that will do that, and it's only an in cremental change from what we have
* [14:24] Rob Linden: yup...let's move on
* [14:24] Q Linden: Steve's message was an appeal to see if someone had a better or more standard system. Thanks.
* [14:25] Rob Linden: Robin's item:
* [14:25] Rob Linden: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-2360
* [14:25] left ear: color change: xstorm Radek leans in and sniffs Robin Cornelius's ears. Hi There! 
* [14:25] Robin Cornelius: Yea we had a little chat on IRC and this came up
* [14:25] Rob Linden: ah
* [14:26] Robin Cornelius: thought it would be useful to the various open source viewer devs to have some usage feedback
* [14:26] Rob Linden: hmmm
* [14:27] xstorm Radek: when will new tools be added to the building tools ?
* [14:27] Rob Linden: I suppose the thing I'd be a little worried about is people setting their channel string just to game the pubished stats
* [14:27] Thickbrick Sleaford: ll keeps stats based on the user agent string?
* [14:27] Robin Cornelius: yea, that achieves nothing for anyone
* [14:27] Soft Linden: Or bogus repeat logins to up the session count
* [14:28] Rob Linden: e.g. any time there's an unpopular decision, using that as a mechanism to attract attentino
* [14:29] xstorm Radek: i do not play games and not many i know play games so what benafit will that be to a builder and worker ?
* [14:29] gem: I: Rawk Beside DJ Ying <3
* [14:29] link: I: Rawk Beside DJ Ying <3
* [14:31] Rob Linden: I'm not sure what else I can say at this point. we'll have some more discussion on this one, but don't expect a quick answer on it. lots of fish to fry, and I'm a little worried about the internal commication costs of convincing others that this is a good idea, given I'm on the fence myself
* [14:31] Object: Hello,: Avatar!
* [14:32] Robin Cornelius: If one was really determined i could change the default log in screen and count hits to my custom page but it was more a general interest thing about the open viewers
* [14:32] Thomas Shikami: maybe account that ever logged into an open source viewer
* [14:33] xstorm Radek: is there any way to split up RP from Non RP people ?
* [14:33] Q Linden: RP?
* [14:33] Thomas Shikami: do you mean alt accounts?
* [14:33] xstorm Radek: Role Play shuch as that
* [14:34] Q Linden: xstorm, perhaps you misunderstood the intent of "gaming"
* [14:34] Q Linden: the discussion was of people deliberately distorting the stats
* [14:34] Q Linden: "gaming the system"
* [14:34] xstorm Radek: oh
* [14:35] Rob Linden: ah
* [14:35] Rob Linden: right
* [14:35] Rob Linden: ok...anything else on this topic?
* [14:35] xstorm Radek: helps to define it
* [14:35] Rob Linden: I think that's it for the agenda
* [14:36] Thickbrick Sleaford: you're concerned that people will try to impersonate open source viewers, or that they'll set their channel to "please change policy x"?
* [14:36] Rob Linden: Thickbrick: the latter
* [14:36] Thickbrick Sleaford: oh, makes sense, I guess.
* [14:36] Soft Linden: 100 bots repeatedly logging in with "Shop SmoothJack's Clothing Island viewer"
* [14:37] Robin Cornelius: heh
* [14:37] Rob Linden: oh, lord....I forgot about that angle Soft
* [14:37] Thickbrick Sleaford: heh
* [14:37] Rob Linden: I think Soft has the best reading of the tea leafs yet
* [14:37] xstorm Radek: there are tons of BOTs out there and people will do it
* [14:37] Robin Cornelius: that kind of blows a nice idea cleanly out of sane possibility
* [14:38] Q Linden: what about having to register OS viewers for stats?
* [14:38] Soft Linden: It's something that should still be discussed. Maybe known viewers can offer to register a name string, and we'd only share recognized names. Dunno.
* [14:38] Thickbrick Sleaford: you can always publish that in the stats as "other"
* [14:38] Soft Linden: Ah, as Q said more succinctly.
* [14:38] Q Linden: stats only reported for stuff that's preregisterd
* [14:38] Rob Linden: hmmmm
* [14:38] xstorm Radek: looking at a persons PC software ?
* [14:38] Q Linden: no[
* [14:38] Q Linden: just the viewer developer says "hey, I call my viewer 'Q's viewer'
* [14:38] Q Linden: "
* [14:39] Q Linden: and then we report stats for that
* [14:39] Q Linden: if they change the channel, we won't report them
* [14:39] xstorm Radek: what about making a install key ?
* [14:40] Rob Linden: Q: I think that might be doable, and I like the motivation that creates.
* [14:40] xstorm Radek: and not having more then one stall key on a pc running ?
* [14:40] Rob Linden: still need to think about it from a priority perspecitve, though, because that starts looking like a program to run
* [14:41] Rob Linden: (where "program" is used in the policy/corporate sense, not "executable" sense)
* [14:42] Thickbrick Sleaford: oops, gotta run. see you next week everyone.
* [14:42] Rob Linden: bye Thickbrick
* [14:42] Rob Linden: I think we may be just about done here. anyone got anything else to discuss?
* [14:43] Khyota Wulluf: always has a feeling theres something he forgot
* [14:44] Soft Linden: Well, there's still efnet #opensl and the sldev@ mailing list if so!
* [14:44] Soft Linden: Did we ever settle on a single SL group for announcements, etc?
* [14:44] Soft Linden: Unfortuantely, there are like 20 viewer source/sl protocol related groups
* [14:44] Rob Linden: oh, no, we didn't
* [14:45] xstorm Radek: :-)
* [14:45] Soft Linden: (And unfortunately, the "sldev" name is used for something else completely!)
* [14:45] xstorm Radek: lots of chefs
* [14:45] Khyota Wulluf: how many hippo groups do we have?
* [14:46] Khyota Wulluf: nvm forgot i have group serach again, qtmozlib FTW!
* [14:47] Soft Linden: If folks want to nominate groups on sldev, we could pick one next week
* [14:47] Soft Linden: I'd hate to just unilaterally start something new if one of them has a lot of good activity already
* [14:47] Khyota Wulluf: yeah
* [14:47] Rob Linden: eh....problem is that if we all agree to something, someone will squat on the name
* [14:47] Robin Cornelius: whats the scope of the announcments you are looking to put oit
* [14:47] Soft Linden: Oh no, I mean - an existing group, not selecting a new name
* [14:48] Soft Linden: If there's already an open source development group that's being well run...
* [14:48] Rob Linden: yeah, that's a good point
* [14:48] Soft Linden: If the name's not shiny, we can always offer to rename it to something more officialish as well.
* [14:49] Soft Linden: Official+fun. Ofunshul?
* [14:49] Rob Linden: I'm not in Second LIfe Source Developers yet....anyone here on it?
* [14:49] xstorm Radek: :-)
* [14:49] Robin Cornelius: i am/was as Michelle, didn't see much happening
* [14:49] xstorm Radek: no i watch and lean
* [14:50] Soft Linden: I'm in it - but I don't recall the last time a message went out
* [14:50] xstorm Radek: and stick my voice in
* [14:50] Soft Linden: One chat message in January, one in February. Just AWG meeting announcements.
* [14:50] Robin Cornelius: One owner
* [14:50] Rob Linden: it seems like the most obvious existing group
* [14:51] Rob Linden: there's OpenSL, but I think that one is even more dormant
* [14:52] Soft Linden: Well, 158 members in Second Life Source Developers is a good endorsement
* [14:52] Rob Linden: yeah, I like that as a tentative solution
* [14:52] Soft Linden: Ah, OpenSL is up there too - 167!
* [14:53] Soft Linden: Ha. The last IM I have logged in OpenSL is from July '08, though.
* [14:53] Q Linden: Hope springs eternal.
* [14:53] Rob Linden: well, let's lob a couple of candidate groups onto the sldev@ mailing list and see what people think
* [14:54] Soft Linden: Sounds like a plan
* [14:54] Robin Cornelius: OpenSL Rob your an owner
* [14:54] Rob Linden: really? ... heh
* [14:54] Robin Cornelius: you Baba and CPryor
* [14:54] Robin Cornelius: Prior*
* [14:54] Thomas Shikami: Second Life Source Developers sounds best so far. OpenSL sounds like a product
* [14:55] Robin Cornelius: i guess it was opensl to follow the #opensl ? 
* [14:55] Rob Linden: yeah that was the idea
* [14:56] Rob Linden: the OpenSL stuff sprang up organically really quickly after we launched
* [14:57] Rob Linden: sounds like we've got a plan for this
* [14:57] Rob Linden: ....and we managed to use up the last few minutes of the meeting time :)
* [14:57] Rob Linden: so...thanks everyone!
* [14:58] Robin Cornelius: Thanks
* [14:58] Soft Linden: Annnnnd zoomf
* [14:58] Q Linden: see ya
* [14:59] Thomas Shikami: wow, people disappear quickly
* [14:59] Robin Cornelius: Yea usualy other meetings to get to
* [14:59] Rob Linden: bye all
* [14:59] Robin Cornelius: Bye rob
* [14:59] Robin Cornelius: others of us head to bed :-p
* [15:00] Home: Going: to home
* [15:00] pickle Flagon: wow are you a real linden
* [15:00] xstorm Radek: sleep ?
Category:Open Source Meeting