Mesh/Archive/2011-05-09

Agenda:
# New Usergroup time, starting next week! [Nyx Linden]
# Can you explain how undecomposed prim-type physics shapes are made? In physics shape display I see one-sided surfaces, missing sides of solids, and small small features absent. Decomposed surfaces are 2-sided. [Drongle McMahon]
# Can you update us on recent progress and tell us what your current priorities are? [Vivienne Daguerre]
# Is there anything in particular you need us to test? [Vivienne Daguerre]
# Please give an update on re-adding bone length recognition to the importer.
# Why do some cts jiras get spirited off into Shining, leaving no trace in cts? [Drongle]
# Will LL support or quash the XML hack that allows sculpties to have texture faces? [Bloodsong Termagant]
# I am working on rideables. If one mesh leg costs about 20 prims, and at least 6 alpha iterations are needed to animate each of the 4 legs, that would be 480 prims for the legs alone (and not account for the body, head, neck, and all those flexiprims needed for manes and tails). While scripts are happy, because each mesh object is one link in a set, and avatars don't care because they don't (yet) have a prim limit on what they can wear; wouldn't such a mesh rideable cause a huge amount of prim lag? Should I shelve this project, at least until/unless independantly rigged animated mesh items are supported? If independantly rigged meshes are introduced at some later date, will they still work when worn by an avatar (and not try to glom onto the avatar's armature)? [Bloodsong Termagant]
#The AssetPivot solution does not work predictably for Blender users, and Prep Linden mentioned adding an option to just recognize the regular pivot point assigned to an object in the modeler. Has this option been added? If not, will it be added before the initial mesh release? [Ashasekayi Ra]
#Have you reconsidered allowing non-animation UUID swapping for meshes yet? -Stickman 11:03, 9 May 2011 (PDT)
==Attendees List==
*Aki (aki.shichiroji)
*Angel (angel.alphaville)
*Ariel Erlanger (ariel.erlanger)
*Asha (ashasekayi.ra)
*Bloodsong Termagant (bloodsong.termagant)
*Bronson Blackadder (bronson.blackadder)
*Brookston Holiday (brookston.holiday)
*Dahlia Trimble (dahlia.trimble)
*draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam)
*Drongle McMahon (drongle.mcmahon)
*F L I P (flip.idlemind)
*faild caps eated mah everything (kadah.coba)
*Latif Khalifa (latif.khalifa)
*Nyx Linden (nyx.linden)
*Prep Linden (prep.linden)
*Raz (raz.welles)
*davep (runitai.linden)
*Rusalka Writer (rusalka.writer)
*Ryuk Tigerpaw (ryuk.tigerpaw)
*Skygirl Kline (skygirl.kline)
*Stickman Ingmann (stickman.ingmann)
*And all i got was this lousy DN (tankmaster.finesmith)
*Techwolf Lupindo (techwolf.lupindo)
*Vivienne Daguerre (vivienne.daguerre)
*Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)
==Transcript for Monday May 9, 2011==
[10:59]	Vivienne Daguerre 	grins (grin)
[11:00]	Vivienne Daguerre 	hello Nyx
[11:00]	Nyx Linden 	greetings all
[11:00]	Rusalka Writer 	Aloha.
[11:00]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Heya Nyx
[11:00]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Hello Nyx.
[11:00]	Stickman Ingmann 	Hi again Nyx!
[11:00]	Nyx Linden 	agenda is here, we'll be starting in a couple minutes https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import/Scripting_User_Group
[11:00]	Stickman Ingmann 	How about the conversation in CBP? That was pretty awesome.
[11:00]	Nyx Linden 	if you have any new topics, please add them to the end
[11:01]	Nyx Linden 	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import/Scripting_User_Group
[11:02]	Nyx Linden 	ready to begin? :D
[11:02]	Nyx Linden 	first topic: "New Usergroup time, starting next week! [Nyx Linden] "
[11:03]	Rusalka Writer 	Uh-oh.
[11:03]	Nyx Linden 	we're going to be pushing back the usergroup to be one hour later starting next week
[11:03]	Nyx Linden 	so noon PDT
[11:03]	Nyx Linden 	hopefully we can pull in more server devs for your server-related questions :)
[11:03]	Rusalka Writer 	Dang. You'll be eating your bag lunches and ignoring us.
[11:04]	Rusalka Writer 	Ah, who crashed, us or them?
[11:04]	Nyx Linden 	NW corner crashed
[11:04]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Sim was crashed
[11:04]	Rusalka Writer 	I asked which was the crashy sim today.
[11:05]	Bronson Blackadder 	last week it was this sim
[11:05]	Rusalka Writer 	Welcome back to the show.
[11:05]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Did Nyx tell about first topic?
[11:05]	Nyx Linden 	the show must go on!
[11:05]	Stickman Ingmann 	Nyx, since I couldn't get a quick answer, I just put it on the agenda.
[11:06]	Nyx Linden 	yes, first topic: the usergroup will be one hour later starting next week
[11:06]	Nyx Linden 	there's a meeting conflict and we hope to get more server devs here with the later time (most of our server devs are on the west coast of the US)
[11:06]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	start at 12:00 SLT?
[11:06]	Nyx Linden 	correct
[11:06]	And all i got was this lousy DN (tankmaster.finesmith)	agenda link? (calendar link?)
[11:06]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Ok I can sleep..
[11:06]	Nyx Linden 	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import/Scripting_User_Group
[11:07]	And all i got was this lousy DN (tankmaster.finesmith)	thx
[11:07]	davep (runitai.linden) 	/me is a blender shark.
[11:07]	Nyx Linden 	any questions / problems with the new time?
[11:07]	Techwolf Lupindo 	wow, I cross just in time...
[11:07]	And all i got was this lousy DN (tankmaster.finesmith)	noon is fine with me
[11:07]	Rusalka Writer 	Inconvenient, not impossible.
[11:07]	Nyx Linden 	ok next topic! "Can you explain how undecomposed prim-type physics shapes are made? In physics shape display I see one-sided surfaces, missing sides of solids, and small small features absent. Decomposed surfaces are 2-sided. [Drongle McMahon] "
[11:08]	davep (runitai.linden) 	Drongle: explain "undecomposed prim-type physics"
[11:08]	Rusalka Writer 	Drongle, explain everything else, too.
[11:08]	Rusalka Writer 	I'm confused.
[11:09]	davep (runitai.linden) 	if you don't specify a physics mesh, using "prim" type physics will use a bounding hull
[11:09]	Drongle McMahon 	hen you load a file into the physics shape bu don't click Analyze
[11:09]	davep (runitai.linden) 	then it should use the mesh you specified
[11:09]	davep (runitai.linden) 	it *will* be one sided (each triangle faces one direction)
[11:09]	Drongle McMahon 	It seems to miss out small parts.
[11:10]	davep (runitai.linden) 	kk, please jirafy and include sample content
[11:10]	Drongle McMahon 	But that may be just the display, I guess.
[11:10]	Drongle McMahon 	OK.
[11:10]	davep (runitai.linden) 	the display should show you a wireframe of the mesh
[11:10]	Drongle McMahon 	It shows filled one-sided triangles.
[11:11]	davep (runitai.linden) 	yeah, but the edges should be outlined with a wireframe
[11:11]	Drongle McMahon 	Yes they are.
[11:11]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "Can you update us on recent progress and tell us what your current priorities are? [Vivienne Daguerre] "
[11:11]	davep (runitai.linden) 	still working on the merge
[11:12]	davep (runitai.linden) 	Trilo Byte was kind enough to point out some terrible regressions on the Apple viewer, so we've been working on resolving those
[11:12]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	To VS2010?
[11:12]	F L I P (flip.idlemind) 	Guize, this is also a scripting user group according to the wiki. Is that actually true, or is it strictly mesh?
[11:12]	Nyx Linden 	still looking at the details of the various cost algorithms we have (streaming, render, etc)
[11:12]	Raz (raz.welles) 	Oh yeah, is there a way to build 2.0 on VS2010 yet :P
[11:12]	Rusalka Writer 	Yaaay work on the Apple viewer...
[11:12]	Nyx Linden 	we focus on meshy topics at this usergroup, we have a couple others that can handle pure-scripting topics
[11:13]	Nyx Linden 	but if you have specific scripting questions, I can send you information on the correct usergroup :)
[11:13]	Stickman Ingmann 	REALLY now. Do tell.
[11:13]	And all i got was this lousy DN (tankmaster.finesmith)	Raz, 2010 is the only VS you can use with autobuild (Raz, 2010 is the only CC you can use with autobuild)
[11:14]	Stickman Ingmann 	I have someone new to harass about UUID swapping?
[11:14]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	heh
[11:14]	Nyx Linden 	UUID swapping should work for regular prims. If you're referring to mesh UUID swapping, that's a mesh-specific issue :)
[11:14]	F L I P (flip.idlemind) 	Well it's just that this one is called the "Content Creation, Mesh Import, Scripting User Group" on the wiki page...
[11:14]	davep (runitai.linden) 	work continues on mesh asset deprecation
[11:15]	Nyx Linden 	I know its confusing, I'm going to work on clarifying the description, sorry for the confusion
[11:15]	Raz (raz.welles) 	tank: oooh ty :)
[11:15]	davep (runitai.linden) 	you can see the viewer work in bitbucket.org/davep/mesh-asset-deprecation
[11:15]	Stickman Ingmann 	I already harassed Kelly this morning about how the LSL/Mono memory works. Mesh UUID swapping is still here, then?
[11:15]	Raz (raz.welles) 	I get VS2010 from the science department so, would be good to play with that again x3
[11:15]	Nyx Linden 	correct stickman.
[11:15]	Stickman Ingmann 	Alright, thanks. Sorry, my mistake.
[11:15]	davep (runitai.linden) 	ran into some problems with the simulator plumbing to the new verifier, hence the hold up
[11:15]	Nyx Linden 	I believe you already added it to the agenda :)
[11:16]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	You can't swap mesh UUIDs anymore.
[11:16]	Stickman Ingmann 	I did, yes. We'll get to it.
[11:16]	Nyx Linden 	so to clarify what dave is saying, we're still planning on breaking all your content :(
[11:16]	And all i got was this lousy DN (tankmaster.finesmith)	yeay
[11:16]	Nyx Linden 	but we should have a shiny new mesh asset format afterward
[11:16]	Vivienne Daguerre 	ah, that has not happened yet?
[11:16]	Rusalka Writer 	So long as there's a plan.
[11:17]	Dahlia Trimble 	what is breaking?
[11:17]	Nyx Linden 	the mesh asset format - aka every piece of uploaded content so far
[11:17]	Dahlia Trimble 	whats changing in it?
[11:17]	Rusalka Writer 	Ooooh.
[11:17]	Stickman Ingmann 	Ok, so it'd just require new uploads? Which at this point are still free? Not too bad.
[11:18]	Nyx Linden 	renaming some fields, caching some data to make things faster, moving things around
[11:18]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Does this mean that something that uploaded valid before can be invalid after?
[11:18]	Nyx Linden 	yes, you'll have to re-upload your content
[11:18]	Latif Khalifa 	when will we have a viewer build with the new format?
[11:18]	Dahlia Trimble 	is there a list of fields being renamed somewhere?
[11:18]	Drongle McMahon 	Any expected changes in what dae files are acceptable?
[11:18]	davep (runitai.linden) 	Dahlia: once we have something we can test, I'll publish that doc
[11:18]	Rusalka Writer 	What's the largest .dae before you crash horribly?
[11:18]	Dahlia Trimble 	ty (Company)
[11:18]	Nyx Linden 	dave posted a link to the viewer sidebranch where the viewer-side work is taking place
[11:19]	Nyx Linden 	Rusaika - don't know, do let us know when you find it :)
[11:19]	davep (runitai.linden) 	bitbucket.org/davep/mesh-asset-deprecation
[11:19]	Latif Khalifa 	i crased 3 times, must've missed it.
[11:19]	Dahlia Trimble 	I just want to know the field names
[11:19]	Rusalka Writer 	I can do that.
[11:19]	Latif Khalifa 	runtai, that repo has the new mesh format?
[11:19]	Rusalka Writer 	Whole house‚Äî crash.
[11:19]	Nyx Linden 	once things are a bit more solid, we'll document the fields & format a bit better :)
[11:19]	Dahlia Trimble 	:)
[11:19]	davep (runitai.linden) 	yup, but you can't use the viewer it produces anywhere
[11:19]	Latif Khalifa 	that's ok, we can :P
[11:20]	davep (runitai.linden) 	and we'll *probably* be putting back the "PositionDomain" and "Min/Max" fields
[11:20]	davep (runitai.linden) 	removing those has been more problematic than expected
[11:20]	Latif Khalifa 	ah, so it's not finalized yet
[11:20]	Dahlia Trimble 	I didnt know they were removed
[11:20]	davep (runitai.linden) 	they weren't, just in that branch
[11:21]	Nyx Linden 	we hope to avoid further format-breaking changes, but if we need them, we better find them during the beta :)
[11:21]	Rusalka Writer 	Better us whining than everybody in SL.
[11:21]	davep (runitai.linden) 	removing them makes decoding quite a bit faster, but it makes building the asset much more difficult
[11:21]	Nyx Linden 	so sorry for the inconvenience
[11:21]	Dahlia Trimble 	whats difference between "Domain" and "Min/Max"?
[11:21]	davep (runitai.linden) 	one's for meshes, one's for convex hulls
[11:21]	davep (runitai.linden) 	we should move on
[11:22]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "Is there anything in particular you need us to test? [Vivienne Daguerre] "
[11:22]	Nyx Linden 	help us continue testing the mesh viewer for main-grid usage!
[11:22]	Nyx Linden 	we got some good bug reports on the mac build not working quite right
[11:22]	Drongle McMahon 	The new asset format
[11:22]	Rusalka Writer 	Glad I crashed.
[11:22]	davep (runitai.linden) 	new asset format isn't ready for testing yet
[11:23]	davep (runitai.linden) 	will post to the forums when it is
[11:23]	Nyx Linden 	the new asset format will need to be tested after we roll out the new servers with the new asset format
[11:23]	Nyx Linden 	as dave says keep an eye on the forums for that one
[11:23]	Drongle McMahon 	Which will be ...?
[11:23]	Nyx Linden 	hopefully soonish? :)
[11:24]	Rusalka Writer 	You have an extra hour until the next meeting.
[11:24]	Ariel Erlanger 	TM
[11:24]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "Please give an update on re-adding bone length recognition to the importer. "
[11:25]	Drongle McMahon 	Dos the new format just affect data streaming, or does it change aything fundamental?
[11:25]	Prep Linden 	I did the initial plumbing on the importer last week to allow for bone scales and rotations - however, another task came up so hopefully when this wraps up - I'll get back to it and finish it off.
[11:25]	Nyx Linden 	mainly streaming/caching format Drongle
[11:26]	Prep Linden 	AND - If you want top provide me with any sample assets, I could use whatever you got. The more the merrier :-)
[11:26]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	/me yays for rotations
[11:26]	Nyx Linden 	its not a strict requirement for launch, but if we have time we will do what we can
[11:27]	Rusalka Writer 	Are you working to a date, then ; ) ?
[11:27]	Nyx Linden 	no estimates we can share publicly yet
[11:27]	Rusalka Writer 	Dang.
[11:28]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "Why do some cts jiras get spirited off into Shining, leaving no trace in cts? [Drongle] "
[11:28]	Nyx Linden 	good question!
[11:28]	Latif Khalifa 	it's estimated that the estimates will be shared by the end of this month :P
[11:28]	Rusalka Writer 	I remember May 15th, 2010.
[11:28]	Nyx Linden 	so we have one of two options: cloning or moving.
[11:29]	Drongle McMahon 	... not "a month" Latif?
[11:29]	Nyx Linden 	cloning means we create a new issue in shining for our internal tracking, moving means the issue gets moved
[11:29]	Nyx Linden 	however if it gets moved it shouldn't disappear, you should be forwarded on to the new issue #
[11:29]	Nyx Linden 	but I wouldn't be surprised if it sometimes gets confused
[11:30]	Nyx Linden 	so if you see specific issues disappearing, definitely send me a note!
[11:30]	Drongle McMahon 	I couldn'tv find any trace of Dan's toggling LOD one until I searched shining.
[11:30]	davep (runitai.linden) 	as for "why" we move instead of cloning, cloning creates two issues to keep track of
[11:30]	Drongle McMahon 	I guess it was CTS-553 or 554
[11:31]	davep (runitai.linden) 	moving is faster and simpler
[11:31]	Drongle McMahon 	It would be nice to have a link left behind.
[11:31]	davep (runitai.linden) 	usually if an issue is cloned, it's to have a private conversation in the clone
[11:31]	Nyx Linden 	that redirects me to SH-1524 - can you not see that issue?
[11:31]	Drongle McMahon 	Yes. I found it eventually.
[11:31]	davep (runitai.linden) 	for mesh, we usually default to cloning
[11:32]	davep (runitai.linden) 	snowstorm (vwr) usually defaults to moving
[11:32]	Nyx Linden 	we've been debating on the cloning vs moving issue though
[11:32]	Nyx Linden 	so there is some inconsistency unfortunately
[11:32]	Nyx Linden 	if the issues get moved they should still be visible
[11:32]	Drongle McMahon 	ok I just wondered
[11:32]	Nyx Linden 	ready to move on?
[11:32]	Drongle McMahon 	yes
[11:33]	Nyx Linden 	(let me know if you can't find anything in particular)
[11:33]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "Will LL support or quash the XML hack that allows sculpties to have texture faces? [Bloodsong Termagant] "
[11:33]	Raz (raz.welles) 	Whoah, didn't know about that o.o jira link?
[11:34]	Stickman Ingmann 	Isn't LL's official stance on misfeatures to ignore them until they make a change that breaks them, then squirrel in a fix and continue to pretend they don't exist?
[11:34]	davep (runitai.linden) 	uhh... what hack?
[11:34]	Rusalka Writer 	This sounds fun.
[11:34]	F L I P (flip.idlemind) 	Yeah Im curious about that too, tell me more
[11:34]	Stickman Ingmann 	I'm also not familiar with this hack.
[11:34]	Nyx Linden 	not sure about this hack - sorry don't have an answer for you
[11:34]	Raz (raz.welles) 	I've never heard of it either
[11:34]	Bloodsong Termagant 	as i understand it, a sculpt is exported to the xml, then... whatever code gives mesh different faces is inserted into it and reuploaded. the result is a sculpt with more than one texture face.
[11:34]	Raz (raz.welles) 	but I want to :P
[11:35]	davep (runitai.linden) 	/me gets all hand wavy.
[11:35]	davep (runitai.linden) 	sounds like they're just converting a sculpt to a mesh
[11:35]	Bloodsong Termagant 	i believe the original author/discoverer was whirly fizzle.
[11:35]	Stickman Ingmann 	Yeah, sounds like it.
[11:35]	draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam) 	it loses sculpt verts in the transition
[11:35]	Raz (raz.welles) 	... oh, that's a lot less interesting :P
[11:35]	And all i got was this lousy DN (tankmaster.finesmith)	no, because you can do it on the main grid now
[11:35]	Bloodsong Termagant 	but this is on the main grid, and it still uses a sculpt map.
[11:35]	And all i got was this lousy DN (tankmaster.finesmith)	which obviously doesnt ave mesh
[11:36]	Raz (raz.welles) 	Does it work on the older viewers?
[11:36]	Raz (raz.welles) 	or v2.0 only?
[11:36]	And all i got was this lousy DN (tankmaster.finesmith)	yeah
[11:36]	davep (runitai.linden) 	neat
[11:36]	Raz (raz.welles) 	Ok it got interesting again :P
[11:36]	Stickman Ingmann 	Document it, make a Jira?
[11:36]	Raz (raz.welles) 	Yeah I'd like to see it
[11:36]	And all i got was this lousy DN (tankmaster.finesmith)	phox gave the phoenix team a patch, but we rejected it because he was the creator of the code
[11:36]	Latif Khalifa 	i've seen it. it generates a sculpt prim with multiple texture entry faces
[11:36]	Bloodsong Termagant 	actually, i dont know the details; i'm not the original author.
[11:36]	Latif Khalifa 	normally a scult has only one
[11:36]	Nyx Linden 	interesting to hear about
[11:37]	Raz (raz.welles) 	hwo does it define the other texture faces?
[11:37]	Nyx Linden 	unfortunately I don't have any info about that just yet
[11:37]	Raz (raz.welles) 	*How
[11:37]	davep (runitai.linden) 	but it sounds like a server bug
[11:37]	davep (runitai.linden) 	so it will probably stop working in the future
[11:37]	And all i got was this lousy DN (tankmaster.finesmith)	it is clasified as a misfeature
[11:37]	Latif Khalifa 	i have it on agni can send an example
[11:37]	davep (runitai.linden) 	I wouldn't count on it sticking around
[11:37]	Bloodsong Termagant 	you can ask whirly on the main grid. just dont... you know, bust down her door like a bad cop show or anything.
[11:37]	Raz (raz.welles) 	sweet, pass it over :)
[11:37]	And all i got was this lousy DN (tankmaster.finesmith)	like the 0 face prim misfeature (0 is like the first misfeature)
[11:37]	davep (runitai.linden) 	/me gets his riot mask.
[11:38]	Raz (raz.welles) 	xD
[11:38]	Bloodsong Termagant 	uh, if you do, dont tell her who sent you.
[11:38]	Nyx Linden 	shall we move on to the next topic?
[11:38]	Raz (raz.welles) 	yes
[11:38]	Stickman Ingmann 	*public usergroup logs*
[11:38]	Aki (aki.shichiroji) 	right, because meeting logs aren't public or anything ;)
[11:38]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	lol
[11:38]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "I am working on rideables. If one mesh leg costs about 20 prims, and at least 6 alpha iterations are needed to animate each of the 4 legs, that would be 480 prims for the legs alone (and not account for the body, head, neck, and all those flexiprims needed for manes and tails). While scripts are happy, because each mesh object is one link in a set, and avatars don't care because they don't (yet) have a prim limit on what they can wear; wouldn't such a mesh rideable cause a huge amount of prim lag? Should I shelve this project, at least until/unless independantly rigged animated mesh items are supported? If independantly rigged meshes are introduced at some later date, will they still work when worn by an avatar (and not try to glom onto the avatar's armature)? [Bloodsong Termagant] "
[11:38]	Bloodsong Termagant 	d'oh!
[11:39]	Rusalka Writer 	Big good question.
[11:39]	davep (runitai.linden) 	yeah, it'll cause as much prim lag as any other scripted color change
[11:40]	davep (runitai.linden) 	the best option is to produce a sample blender or maya or 3d studio file that contains the ridable and give it to us to develop arbitrary avatar skeletons against
[11:41]	Nyx Linden 	non-avatar skeletons/animation would ultimately be the best option. We can't delay the release of mesh for that though, but it is something that would be good to have long-term
[11:41]	Bloodsong Termagant 	no, i know its like... way down the road.
[11:41]	Ryuk Tigerpaw 	indeed
[11:41]	Bloodsong Termagant 	if ever.
[11:41]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	We could start a jira and place example in it now though?
[11:41]	Stickman Ingmann 	So the official Linden response is, "Stop making things! We can't support that yet!"
[11:42]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	*examples
[11:42]	F L I P (flip.idlemind) 	I think it would be *great* to have long-term, to say the least
[11:42]	Rusalka Writer 	Just make stuff and crash until they notice.
[11:42]	Ryuk Tigerpaw 	haha
[11:42]	davep (runitai.linden) 	no, it's make that stuff the way you'd want it to work ideally, stop just before the import step, and send us what you have so we can make second life support it
[11:42]	Stickman Ingmann 	I'm really looking forward to custom skeletons, yes. Avatar and otherwise.
[11:42]	davep (runitai.linden) 	that's what we did with rigged attachments
[11:42]	davep (runitai.linden) 	and it worked great
[11:42]	Stickman Ingmann 	Just joking around, Runitai.
[11:42]	Rusalka Writer 	I'll send you some hamburger. You send back a pony.
[11:42]	Ryuk Tigerpaw 	me too, would love to make true NPCs
[11:43]	Stickman Ingmann 	Sometimes I'm actually funny.
[11:43]	Raz (raz.welles) 	What's the plan for animating custom skeletons?
[11:43]	Raz (raz.welles) 	Using the animation from collada? (Using the pass from animation?)
[11:43]	davep (runitai.linden) 	better than you sending us a pony and us sending you hamburger
[11:43]	davep (runitai.linden) 	o.O (oO)
[11:43]	Nyx Linden 	Raz: don't know yet :)
[11:43]	Rusalka Writer 	Much.
[11:43]	Raz (raz.welles) 	/me nods
[11:43]	Ryuk Tigerpaw 	From what I heard, they release mesh without then add it later?
[11:43]	Stickman Ingmann 	It's on the roadmap. Don't know where yet. Meshes need to get done first.
[11:43]	Raz (raz.welles) 	I suppose the fields for it willl be in the mesh format or something? if they're not there already? o.o
[11:43]	Ryuk Tigerpaw 	I agree
[11:44]	Nyx Linden 	one project at a time :)
[11:44]	Raz (raz.welles) 	iirc, the .anim format already accounted for extra bones
[11:44]	Raz (raz.welles) 	oki
[11:44]	Stickman Ingmann 	Yes, the internal SL animation format can support arbitrary skeletons.
[11:44]	Bloodsong Termagant 	thanks, guys.
[11:44]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "The AssetPivot solution does not work predictably for Blender users, and Prep Linden mentioned adding an option to just recognize the regular pivot point assigned to an object in the modeler. Has this option been added? If not, will it be added before the initial mesh release? [Ashasekayi Ra] "
[11:44]	Drongle McMahon 	Yes. Please addit.
[11:45]	Stickman Ingmann 	Custom pivot points? :o That's been on my DO WANT list for years.
[11:45]	Raz (raz.welles) 	hehe
[11:45]	Bloodsong Termagant 	its in there, stick.
[11:45]	Ryuk Tigerpaw 	mhm
[11:45]	Prep Linden 	I haven't added that option yet - if time allows we'll be adding it. (This also requires some effort from our server folks to get in there correctly.)
[11:45]	Drongle McMahon 	It's there Stickman, but it's a bit kludgy.
[11:45]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Ok thanks Prep
[11:46]	Prep Linden 	yw Asha
[11:46]	Nyx Linden 	all depends on how much caffeine we give prep between now and release
[11:46]	Drongle McMahon 	The transformations need repairs for other resons, so it could be included there.
[11:46]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	:D (: D)
[11:46]	Raz (raz.welles) 	I have an espresso maker, watch out for those caffeine hadaches though
[11:46]	Raz (raz.welles) 	*headaches
[11:46]	Raz (raz.welles) 	I recommend Pilon, or a robusta, and some milk :P
[11:46]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "Have you reconsidered allowing non-animation UUID swapping for meshes yet? -Stickman 11:03, 9 May 2011 (PDT) "
[11:47]	davep (runitai.linden) 	yup
[11:47]	davep (runitai.linden) 	won't work
[11:47]	Latif Khalifa 	lol
[11:47]	Stickman Ingmann 	So hey. Have you reconsidered allowing non-animation UUID swapping for meshes yet?
[11:47]	Ryuk Tigerpaw 	:x
[11:47]	Rusalka Writer 	We're doing well.
[11:47]	Stickman Ingmann 	"Won't work?"
[11:47]	Raz (raz.welles) 	On that same note, how about a function to at least alpha a whole list of objects and make one visible at a time
[11:47]	davep (runitai.linden) 	the sim CANNOT change the mesh asset associated with an object after the object has been rezzed
[11:47]	Raz (raz.welles) 	the current lsl scripting for that function is a nightmare
[11:47]	Latif Khalifa 	davep, you should disallow rezzing objects too. it has same "impact"
[11:48]	Raz (raz.welles) 	and really hits llsetprimitiveparams hard in homesteads
[11:48]	Stickman Ingmann 	llSetListLinkPrimitiveParams has a Jira open.
[11:48]	Raz (raz.welles) 	oah ok
[11:48]	Latif Khalifa 	of course it can.
[11:48]	Rusalka Writer 	Having no objects would solve some problems.
[11:48]	Raz (raz.welles) 	waid did adeon write that or someone I know.. I forget
[11:48]	Stickman Ingmann 	An actual technical limitation? Hm. I respond to that better than the other arguments.
[11:48]	Latif Khalifa 	stickman, no, no technical limitation.
[11:49]	Stickman Ingmann 	Yeah, I'm trying to think of the validity of the claim.
[11:49]	Ryuk Tigerpaw 	Is it ok if I ask a sortof off topic question? >.>
[11:49]	davep (runitai.linden) 	Latif: I read the code, it really can't
[11:49]	Latif Khalifa 	I know how to code too davep
[11:49]	davep (runitai.linden) 	not without a TON of work that would compromise the potential success of the mesh project
[11:49]	Stickman Ingmann 	I don't know programming. But I've gotta buy it. It makes enough sense.
[11:49]	Latif Khalifa 	if you say it cannot, you either don't want to
[11:49]	Latif Khalifa 	saying some claims "cannot" is not credible
[11:49]	Stickman Ingmann 	If you can solve whatever the issue is, Latif, I'd be happy to support that action however I could.
[11:49]	Rusalka Writer 	No violence! No violence!
[11:49]	davep (runitai.linden) 	technically, anything's possible
[11:50]	davep (runitai.linden) 	but it's not feasible
[11:50]	Latif Khalifa 	it is
[11:50]	Latif Khalifa 	it's not a rocket science
[11:50]	Nyx Linden 	any other topics for this week?
[11:50]	Ryuk Tigerpaw 	oh!
[11:50]	Ryuk Tigerpaw 	normal/specular maps
[11:50]	Ryuk Tigerpaw 	if they are supported, how will they work?
[11:50]	Stickman Ingmann 	Latif is a strong proponent of this feature I want. Would there be some way to receive his input? The code for the meshviewer is still not public, is it?
[11:50]	Nyx Linden 	another project we'd like to get to after mesh launch :)
[11:50]	faild caps eated mah everything (kadah.coba) 	/me sighs at nothing loading due to the absolute failure of caps :C
[11:51]	Ryuk Tigerpaw 	nice
[11:51]	Nyx Linden 	Stickman: the viewer isn't the problem
[11:51]	Latif Khalifa 	Yes, and I have very low tollerance for lame excuses
[11:51]	Nyx Linden 	and the viewer code is public
[11:51]	Latif Khalifa 	wow, "sim need to download the asset"
[11:51]	Latif Khalifa 	as if sim doesn't downlod prima assets on each rez
[11:51]	Latif Khalifa 	and ton of other stuff
[11:51]	And all i got was this lousy DN (tankmaster.finesmith)	hg.secondlife.com has the repository for multible things, including mesh
[11:51]	Rusalka Writer 	Is there a list of things we'd like after launch? We could bother you there.
[11:51]	Raz (raz.welles) 	What if the asset is already cached, like people do with caching cubes
[11:52]	davep (runitai.linden) 	Latif: the architecture makes a lot of assumptions that prevent that operation from being safe or successful
[11:52]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Whatt do you mean by safe?
[11:52]	davep (runitai.linden) 	changing the architecture to support that feature is not feasible if we want to ship mesh someday
[11:52]	Latif Khalifa 	so you're saying you have incompetent or lazy architects?
[11:52]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	*What
[11:53]	Nyx Linden 	we don't have the time or the resources to make that change and ship in a reasonable timeframe.
[11:53]	davep (runitai.linden) 	Asha: "safe" as in stable
[11:53]	Latif Khalifa 	Rezzin an object has exactly the same impact.
[11:53]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Ah ok
[11:53]	Latif Khalifa 	and it has worked since begining of sl
[11:54]	davep (runitai.linden) 	changing the asset triggers a change in the number of faces -- that code is fragile and tied to a separate pipeline (volume generation)
[11:54]	Latif Khalifa 	and saying that rezzing stuff makes sims unstable is just absurd
[11:54]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	How long is your reasonable timeframe?
[11:54]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	can t you accept what Nyx just said ?
[11:54]	davep (runitai.linden) 	shoehorning meshes into that pipeline didn't work because the mesh asset has to be fetched asynchronously
[11:54]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	isnt that something that makes sense ?
[11:54]	davep (runitai.linden) 	rezzing is different than changing the asset on an object that is already rezzed
[11:54]	davep (runitai.linden) 	it's a completely different operation
[11:54]	Vivienne Daguerre 	Well folks, I just want them to get on with what they are doing and get the first mesh release rolled out. These other points can be looked at later.
[11:54]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	( what was to Latif )
[11:55]	Latif Khalifa 	Angel, no
[11:55]	Nyx Linden 	5 minutes left - any topics you;d like us to discuss before we wrap up?
[11:55]	Stickman Ingmann 	Vivienne, UUID mesh swapping is pretty fundamental. I'm not happy to hear that things were designed in such a way that it's not very possible, at the very least at release. But it sounds like I'm going to have to accept that.
[11:55]	Vivienne Daguerre 	Asking the same question in different words over and over and insulting them certainly is not going to get you what you want.
[11:55]	Stickman Ingmann 	Doesn't necessarily mean I'll stop harassing you guys about it, though. Just so you know.
[11:56]	Ryuk Tigerpaw 	>.<
[11:56]	Rusalka Writer 	Well, there's harrassing and there's harrassing.
[11:56]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	it s also called trolling
[11:56]	Raz (raz.welles) 	Did we cover the cpossibility of clientside flipping already?
[11:56]	davep (runitai.linden) 	and we'll continue to respond to your harassment as professionally and courteously as possible
[11:56]	Raz (raz.welles) 	been a while for me
[11:56]	Stickman Ingmann 	Naw, Trolling is what the guy did in the CBP group before the meeting.
[11:56]	Rusalka Writer 	I can imagine the hand gestures.
[11:56]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	sorry, it is
[11:56]	Drongle McMahon 	Need UUID asset swapping for a dead horse flogging animation?
[11:56]	Stickman Ingmann 	"USD$5 upload cost per prim on mesh upload, or SL will fail."
[11:56]	Latif Khalifa 	Lets not forget we could drop mesh inventory item on an object until recently. Which is exactly the same operation and it worked. It's just a lame excuse with no techicak merit.
[11:57]	Rusalka Writer 	I think we're done here.
[11:57]	Brookston Holiday 	techicak?
[11:57]	davep (runitai.linden) 	Latif: it appeared to work -- the sim was freaking out every time you did that
[11:57]	Latif Khalifa 	so hire coders that know how to meake it without sim freaking out
[11:57]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	maybe you should make a region for Latif to swap uuids then everyone will be happy
[11:57]	davep (runitai.linden) 	the viewer was setup to handle asynchronous loading of mesh assets, to the visible mesh changed
[11:57]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Please tell the url of the forum that Nyx will wite the mesh asset format?
[11:57]	Stickman Ingmann 	Latif is aggressive, and a bit condescending. But he generally has good points. Nyx, Prep, and Runitai have absolute say, though. Which likely encourages Latif's aggressive nature.
[11:57]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	and you can move on to serious stuff to be addressed
[11:57]	davep (runitai.linden) 	the simulator pipeline would always "almost" work
[11:58]	davep (runitai.linden) 	but fail in subtle and hard to debug ways
[11:58]	davep (runitai.linden) 	and would, without exception, cause simulator frame stalls
[11:58]	davep (runitai.linden) 	you could slow down an entire sim just by changing a UUID over and over again
[11:58]	Stickman Ingmann 	Hm. I suddenly have pancakes. This is awesome.
[11:58]	Nyx Linden 	we post our meeting minutes and announcements here: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/bd-p/Mesh
[11:58]	Latif Khalifa 	yes, you can do that by rezzing a big linkset too
[11:58]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Thank you!
[11:59]	davep (runitai.linden) 	no sense in making a bad situation worse
[11:59]	And all i got was this lousy DN (tankmaster.finesmith)	so mesh meetings will be at noon starting next week?
[11:59]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	When is the new meeting time?
[11:59]	Prep Linden 	gotta run, later folks.
[11:59]	Raz (raz.welles) 	Nyx, Runi, please give the llsetlistlinkprimitiveparams another look
[11:59]	Rusalka Writer 	I want it to work the best it can, not limp along with everything that might be possible.
[11:59]	Raz (raz.welles) 	It just automates what you suggested as an alternative iirc
[11:59]	Vivienne Daguerre 	Well Lindens, I for one think you are doing a great job and I thank you for it. And with that I am out of here. See you next week.
[11:59]	And all i got was this lousy DN (tankmaster.finesmith)	thx for your time, prep
[11:59]	Stickman Ingmann 	Thanks for your time!
[11:59]	Skygirl Kline 	byes
[11:59]	Rusalka Writer 	Mahalo!
[11:59]	Ryuk Tigerpaw 	bye ^^ (bye ^ ^)
[11:59]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	cheers Lindens
[11:59]	Ariel Erlanger 	thanks!
[11:59]	Nyx Linden 	next week's meeting is one hour later remember!
[11:59]	Nyx Linden 	noon PDT!
[11:59]	And all i got was this lousy DN (tankmaster.finesmith)	will do! „ã°
[11:59]	Raz (raz.welles) 	mata ne (kills ne)
[11:59]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Thank you! See you next week!
[11:59]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Thanks. Later Lindens.
[12:00]	davep (runitai.linden) 	have a good one
[12:00]	Ryuk Tigerpaw 	np (eg)
[12:00]	Drongle McMahon 	So that Prep can drink lots of coffee
[12:00]	Bloodsong Termagant 	i'll forget. maybe put up a sign :X
[12:00]	Nyx Linden 	thanks everyone!
[12:00]	Rusalka Writer 	Aloha!
[12:00]	Aki (aki.shichiroji) 	Thanks for the meeting
Generated by the 'Wikify SL Chat Log' utility by DG Products for Second Life (DGP4SL)