User Experience Interest Group/Transcripts/2009-09-17

== Topic ==
User Experience Interest Group Discussion for September 17, 2009.
Topic: Useful Advanced Menu Features.
== Summary ==
We discussed menu items in the Advanced menu which are useful to users, and where they could be moved (or duplicated) to provide easier access.
* Character > Rebake Textures: Move to Tools menu, or Edit menu near clothing/appearance, or as part of a new menu called "Avatar".
* Debug Settings: Move to Edit, rename to "Advanced Settings", add some safeguards, and improve the UI. A tree or list view like Firefox's about:config page is suggested.
* Disable Camera Constraints: Move to Preferences (Input & Camera). Or have disable camera constraints by default and get rid of the option.
* Limit Select Distance: Move to Tools menu, near the other selection-related options.
* Rendering > Hide Selected: Also move to Tools menu, near the other selection-related options.
* Consoles > Fast Timers: No change needed. It's not used by many people, and has a shortcut for quick access anyway.
* Rendering > Types menu: Move entire menu to View or World.
* Rendering > Features: Move entire menu to World menu, but perhaps move "UI" toggle to the View menu.
* UI > Show Time: Remove the option, show logged-in time in the tooltip for the clock in the top right corner.
* Character > Enable Lyp Sync: Already moved to Preferences (Chat) in recent viewer versions. Could perhaps be in Preferences (Voice) instead.
* Quiet Snapshots: Move to a checkbox on the Snapshot floater.
* Character > Animation Info: No change needed.
* Character > Slow Motion Animations: No change needed.
Feature ideas that came up:
* Add a "Show Advanced Menu" toggle item to View menu.
* Search box to help find/access menu items by name.
* "Recently Used Commands" list/menu (gives access to recently used menu items)
* Timer/alarm clock (e.g. "Let me know when I've been in world for 3 hours")
* International clock (display time in multiple time zones)
Other notes:
* Fixed weather has been useless for years, and can be safely removed.
== Transcript ==
[15:20]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Today's topis is: useful advanced menu features! There are some hidden gems in the Advanced menu, to be sure.
[15:20]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Cool!
[15:21]	Charlette Proto: 	why isn't there a 'Show advanced Menu' in View BTW?
[15:21]	Jacek Antonelli grins 	Jacek Antonelli grins
[15:21]	Morgaine Dinova: 	How about a quick random poll on everyone's favourite Advanced entry?
[15:21]	Aimee Trescothick proposes if be renamed to the "1337 menu" 	Aimee Trescothick proposes if be renamed to the "1337 menu"
[15:21]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Not including rebake, since that's a necessity :P
[15:21]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Couple of them.
[15:21]	Charlette Proto: 	Debug Settings
[15:21]	Mm Alder: 	Disable Camera constraints
[15:21]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I never use rebake.
[15:21]	McCabe Maxsted: 	haha
[15:21]	Garn Conover: 	select distance
[15:22]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Mine today is "Hide Selected", since that's the option that lets you bypass anti-inspect shields. http://www.flickr.com/photos/jjacek/3929288381/
[15:22]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Texture console. Surprise!
[15:22]	Morgaine Dinova: 	My favourite is Fast Timers, and my second is Rendering->Types panel.
[15:22]	Aimee Trescothick: 	Debugging->Force LLError and Crash
[15:22]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Also very useful for building, since you can use it to get at linked prims without disassembling the whole object
[15:22]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehe Aimee
[15:22]	Aimee Trescothick: 	saves time waiting for the next one
[15:22]	Morgaine Dinova: 	lol
[15:23]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yes, very convenient, might as well get it out of the way!
[15:23]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Also UI -> Show Time, shows how much time you've stayed on SL. It should really belong to HUD Info...
[15:23]	Charlette Proto: 	yes Hide Selected can be very good in editing
[15:23]	Mm Alder: 	Of course I have a particular fondness for Character->Enable Lip Sync
[15:23]	McCabe Maxsted: 	:)
[15:23]	Garn Conover: 	why is multiple threads not part of graphics?
[15:23]	Geneko Nemeth: 	It should default to on anyway.
[15:24]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe in snow Lip Sync is in Preferences > Chat
[15:24]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Quiet Snapshots to Disk is a handy one too, if you take lots of photographs and don't want to drive everyone around you insane with your clicking
[15:24]	Morgaine Dinova: 	That word always reminds me of synchronized swimming
[15:24]	Charlette Proto: 	yup i use Quiet Snapshot too
[15:24]	Charlette Proto: 	all this proves that Advanced should be an option on the View menu
[15:24]	McCabe Maxsted had no idea about ui > show time before. *ponders changing "Time:" to "Hours spent procrastinating"*	McCabe Maxsted had no idea about ui > show time before. *ponders changing "Time:" to "Hours spent procrastinating"*
[15:24]	Mm Alder: 	Yep Charlette and it's in the maint viewer for the standard viewer now
[15:26]	Charlette Proto: 	personally I'd distribute more of the popular stuff in Advanced to other menus and maybe more features could be added then
[15:26]	McCabe Maxsted: 	(it's been a checkbox in view > advanced in imp for a while now)
[15:26]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Character > Animation info. See who's on AO.
[15:26]	Aimee Trescothick: 	World->Fixed Weather seems less than useful seeing as we haven't had weather in, oh, about 5 yeas
[15:26]	Aimee Trescothick: 	*years
[15:26]	McCabe Maxsted: 	err view > show advanced
[15:26]	McCabe Maxsted: 	what did it do?
[15:26]	Geneko Nemeth: 	It might be a good time as any to implement weather, then!
[15:26]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Never ever distribute stuff from Advanced, it just confuses the hell out of everyone who is using multiple viewers. Just copy and entry and place where needed.
[15:26]	Aimee Trescothick: 	Fixed the weather :D
[15:26]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hah!
[15:27]	Charlette Proto: 	yeah MacCabe I really don't think there should be 'secret codes' fom UI
[15:27]	McCabe Maxsted: 	secret codes?
[15:27]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Link the WL sky cover to cell automaton cloud density and make rain particles when density over 100.
[15:27]	Charlette Proto: 	"Ctrl Alt D"
[15:28]	Mm Alder: 	Anyone know what Recorder is used for?
[15:28]	Geneko Nemeth: 	It replays stuff...
[15:28]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Play tunes
[15:28]	Charlette Proto: 	everyone forget it too, it must be the most common question I get with people switching viewers
[15:28]	Geneko Nemeth: 	One moment...
[15:28]	Jacek Antonelli: 	It records and plays back your movements
[15:28]	McCabe Maxsted: 	press your lips up to the monitor and blow
[15:28]	Aimee Trescothick: 	records a list of waypoints
[15:29]	Mm Alder: 	What would it be used for though?
[15:29]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Machinima?
[15:29]	Aimee Trescothick: 	testing mostly I think
[15:29]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Mostly useful for tests where you walk through some area with varying conditions
[15:29]	Charlette Proto: 	and where does record store it or what play will do I never tried it
[15:29]	Aimee Trescothick: 	it's a bit jerky for Machinima, but could be improved
[15:30]	Aimee Trescothick: 	dumps it to a text file in the logs directory I believe
[15:30]	Charlette Proto: 	WHAT IS THIS: " [15:29] Panel 3: Freeze of 0.534383s detected (Mono) [15:29] Panel 3: Freeze of 0.532603s detected (LSO)"????
[15:30]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hey Techwolf
[15:30]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Oh, I just thought of a Feature Request that I've never heard before, that's wierd. A search box in the frame for finding menu entries :-)
[15:31]	McCabe Maxsted: 	ahoy techwolf!
[15:31]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Cool idea, Morg
[15:31]	Garn Conover wonders whats up with his computer 	Garn Conover wonders whats up with his computer
[15:31]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Hi all. I'me parking my avatar here. Have to go do RL stuff.
[15:31]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hiya Tech
[15:31]	Charlette Proto: 	I love it Morgaine along with proped Debug settings search
[15:31]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Seems to not record jumps... T_T
[15:32]	Garn Conover: 	my pie menu's are egg shaped now
[15:32]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek: I guess it would need a Next button next to it to scan through the matching entries
[15:32]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	The Debug floater can use some work. Searching is tricky on it now.
[15:32]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Let's see... I'm gonna make a list of the menu items we mentioned, and then we can talk about where they could be moved (or copied) to, to be more useful / accessible
[15:33]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Interface translators used to have to use the "XUI - Show XUI names" option to figure where in the directories does the text live.
[15:33]	Charlette Proto: 	yes you have to be typing the term Debug isn't really a search but select by name
[15:33]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Now they just get fed a weird file from LL and fill it out without context.
[15:33]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Oh, and along the lines of your Worn Items inventory panel, a "Recently Used Commands" menu. After a while, you'd never have to visit any other menus!
[15:34]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Or rarely :P
[15:34]	Charlette Proto: 	Morgaine is on FIRE - I'd love a worn items history
[15:34]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hah, that's not what I said, but that's a great idea too Charlette :-)
[15:34]	McCabe Maxsted wonders if slow motion animations = baywatch setting? 	McCabe Maxsted wonders if slow motion animations = baywatch setting?
[15:34]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Nice ideas
[15:35]	Jacek Antonelli: 	haha McCabe
[15:35]	Charlette Proto: 	same could be said for many other things eg TPs, IMs
[15:36]	Jacek Antonelli: 	It's also useful to animators for checking how their animations look
[15:36]	Morgaine Dinova: 	That's a cool idea
[15:36]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Also the default female walk looks so nice when you slow it down.
[15:36]	Jacek Antonelli: 	You mean it doesn't look like a waddling duck in slow motion, Gen?
[15:36]	Charlette Proto: 	not to mention avie list like Meerkar/Emerald, a few more list with attribute floaters would apply well to many aspects
[15:37]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Oh blimey, just noticed --- sitting is broken here to!!!!!
[15:37]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Hmm... not from the side. Still does from the back...
[15:37]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, let's look at these menu items we talked about, and think about where they would be more accessible
[15:37]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Everyone's sitting is broken, not just tinies. McCabe's bum is half inside his seat
[15:37]	Jacek Antonelli: 	First up: Rebake Textures
[15:37]	Morgaine Dinova: 	What have Lindens done, eq
[15:37]	McCabe Maxsted: 	oh my!
[15:37]	Morgaine Dinova: 	ew
[15:38]	Charlette Proto: 	that would be Tools (Rebake)
[15:38]	Morgaine Dinova: 	They sure find it easy to break stuff
[15:38]	Jacek Antonelli: 	"Lindens: Keep your hands OFF my bum!"
[15:38]	Morgaine Dinova: 	lol
[15:38]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Tools > Rebake?
[15:38]	Charlette Proto: 	or add an Avatar menu with Edit Appearance Gestures etc
[15:38]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yup, good assignment
[15:40]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Debug Settings
??? 
??? Disable Camera constraints
??? 
??? select distance
??? 
??? Hide Selected
??? 
??? Texture console
??? 
??? Fast Timers
??? 
??? Rendering->Types
??? 
??? Debugging->Force LLError and Crash
??? 
??? UI -> Show Time
??? 
??? Hide Selected
??? 
??? Hide Sele
??? 
??? Character->Enable Lip Sync
??? 
??? Quiet Snapshots to Disk
??? 
??? Character > Animation info
??? 
??? World->Fixed Weather
??? 
??? Recorder
??? 
??? slow motion animations
[15:40]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I'd think to put it in Edit near Appearance, Attach/Detach, Take Off clothing, etc.
[15:40]	Charlette Proto: 	most of Edit is avatar functions but really it should be distributed amongst World and Avatar
[15:40]	Geneko Nemeth: 	That was everything we mentioned.
[15:40]	Geneko Nemeth: 	... I think...
[15:40]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Thanks, Gen
[15:41]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Correct me if I'm wrong.
[15:41]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek: Appearance is in the wrongbox anyway, should be one up, along with clothing.
[15:41]	Jacek Antonelli: 	So, Charlette, you're thinking of a new top level menu "Avatar"?
[15:41]	Charlette Proto: 	plus Render > Render Tests > frame Test
[15:41]	Morgaine Dinova: 	It's in with Gestures and Profiles, makes no sense at all
[15:42]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Good point, Morgaine
[15:42]	Charlette Proto: 	I think Avatar menu would make more sense than Edit
[15:42]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Oh, Avatar at top level --- yeah, that's great!
[15:42]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Ax the file menu while we're at it?
[15:42]	Garn Conover: 	thats better
[15:42]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	But do most folks now what an avatar is in SL?
[15:42]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	now=knwo
[15:42]	Charlette Proto: 	Edit usually has very few functions and Second Life™ has a lot of stuff there which is about avatar
[15:42]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	know
[15:43]	Geneko Nemeth: 	We have avatars in forums too, it's not like a word like "rez".
[15:43]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Let's move on to the next one -- Debug Settings. Anywhere better to put this?
[15:43]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Leave File menu, people are just too used to have Quit in there. And it's needed for Import and Export anyway, which are File based
[15:43]	Mm Alder: 	Debug Settings should be right under Preferences
[15:44]	Mm Alder: 	Although "Debug" isn't a good name
[15:44]	Charlette Proto: 	Agree Mm Debug and Consoles could be in edit
[15:44]	Mm Alder: 	Maybe "Advanced Settings"
[15:44]	McCabe Maxsted notices the debug settings window doesn't have a value for "persist" 	McCabe Maxsted notices the debug settings window doesn't have a value for "persist"
[15:44]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay. Maybe call it something like "Advanced Preferences" or "Power-User Settings"?
[15:45]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Mozilla have about:config.
[15:45]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yeah, the "Debug" in "Debug Settings" is really poor. There might be a few debug-related entries in there, but not many
[15:45]	Charlette Proto: 	Gen are you suffering from ADHD?
[15:45]	Garn Conover: 	no thats me
[15:45]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Maybe?
[15:45]	Mm Alder: 	No, he enjoys it. :-)
[15:45]	Jacek Antonelli: 	One potential issue here is that it's possible to seriously break the viewer by messing around in Debug Settings.
[15:46]	Charlette Proto: 	Debug is really just all UI settings in one not Debug functions
[15:46]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I'm just playing over this route in the recorder...
[15:46]	Morgaine Dinova: 	No run+pounce anim?
[15:46]	Charlette Proto: 	true jacek
[15:46]	Garn Conover: 	not on this guy
[15:46]	Garn Conover: 	my other 3k wolf does
[15:46]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Is that a problem? Would there need to be safeguards?
[15:46]	McCabe Maxsted: 	yeah; you can crash it fairly easily by setting certain values out of their intended range, too
[15:47]	Charlette Proto: 	maybe an undo or history of chnages made in debug would make people less scared of it
[15:47]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Very cute dog, love it
[15:47]	Mm Alder: 	I think you'd have to improve the usability first. It's pretty crude.
[15:47]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I never understood why they turned RenderGlorMinLuminance off.
[15:47]	Charlette Proto: 	also many changes in Debug don't get activated till next restart
[15:47]	Geneko Nemeth: 	s/Glor/Glow/
[15:48]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Another way of looking at it -- the reason Debug Settings is useful is because it allows you to access settings that don't have any UI for them. Could that be solved by allowing the useful ones to be changed through the UI?
[15:48]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Only for some.
[15:48]	Mm Alder: 	It wouldn't be too dificult to have a "You must relog to see the changes" notice.
[15:48]	Geneko Nemeth: 	For example, shadows and glow settings would easily belong to an advanced version of advanced environment editor.
[15:49]	Charlette Proto: 	some actually tell you it needs restrt but some don't
[15:49]	Mm Alder: 	Yes, some settings are watched for changes.
[15:49]	Charlette Proto: 	yup Gen
[15:49]	Geneko Nemeth: 	And maxavatarvisible should be in prefrences, stat!
[15:49]	McCabe Maxsted: 	it would be very useful if some changes you had to relog with before were changed so you didn't; like the colors.xml entries
[15:49]	Charlette Proto: 	one thing I actually like about the Debug interface is the explanations which is more that standard menu items have
[15:50]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Are there useful items in Debug Settings that couldn't be put in the UI somewhere? Or too many useful items that there's nowhere to fit them all?
[15:50]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I actually hate that the Debug Settings list is a transient window. Would be much better as a normal scrollable pane.
[15:50]	Geneko Nemeth: 	But a couple
[15:50]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Sorry.
[15:50]	Charlette Proto: 	it would be a good idea to move some of them to menus Jacek, but there is no way to include info on what they do
[15:51]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Would it be nicer if it's like Firefox's about:config?
[15:51]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Or gconf-editor?
[15:51]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yes Gen
[15:51]	Geneko Nemeth: 	(For those running GNOME)
[15:51]	Charlette Proto: 	yes a tree structure would help in Debug eg Render, Avatar etc
[15:51]	Charlette Proto: 	like firefox etc
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, good ideas
[15:52]	Mm Alder: 	Charlette, I think you can put a hover tip anywhere.
[15:52]	Geneko Nemeth: 	The problem is you have to wait 0.4 seconds to even see if there's a tooltip.
[15:52]	Charlette Proto: 	WHAT IS THIS "Panel 3"?
[15:52]	Geneko Nemeth: 	(By default)
[15:52]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Although most Linux widget sets are terrible in that you can't cut'n'paste their names.
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Let's move on to the next one - Disable Camera Constraints. Seems like this one could go in Preferences > Input & Camera?
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Charlette: It's Aimee's lag meter thing. Just mute it or something
[15:53]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Oh, sorry, I've turned the freeze monitor off now. Just wanted to see the freezes as people came in
[15:53]	Charlette Proto: 	yes true Mm hover tips would give that info
[15:53]	Morgaine Dinova: 	No, it's mine. Aimee added the graphics
[15:53]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Ah
[15:53]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Sigh, eventually it gets dizzy.
[15:53]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Anyway. Disable Camera Constraints? Ideas?
[15:53]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Mine has no graphics. ANd mine's not mine, but Moon's, lol
[15:54]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Hmm... can we call camera constraints "anti-features"?
[15:54]	Charlette Proto: 	Camera in World I think
[15:54]	Mm Alder: 	Jacek, I think you're right that it should be in Preferences->Camera
[15:54]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Top-level menu for Camera?
[15:54]	McCabe Maxsted: 	camera constraints default to off?
[15:54]	Jacek Antonelli: 	There's a thought, Geneko. Is there any reason not to have camera constraints disabled altogether, all the time?
[15:55]	Charlette Proto: 	no more into preferences, I'd like camera zoom and distance to be in main UI like Meerkat
[15:55]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I guess newbies might cam off somewhere, and get lost. But pressing Escape resets the camera anyway
[15:55]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I guess newbies might not know how to reset the camera. Can't think of any other reason for the constraint
[15:55]	Geneko Nemeth: 	And moving resets camera too.
[15:55]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Gen: which it should not
[15:55]	Charlette Proto: 	agrees one can cam off even without constraints
[15:56]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Leave my frickin camera alone!
[15:56]	Geneko Nemeth: 	No definitely shouldn't.
[15:56]	Charlette Proto: 	anyway all camera stuff should be in World
[15:56]	Charlette Proto: 	option not to follow cammed avies would be nice too
[15:56]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I wonder why we have so few to-level menus? Just so that they'll fit on a cellphone?
[15:56]	Charlette Proto: 	'leve my cam alone please'
[15:56]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Get rid of camera constraints altogether, including the menu item?
[15:57]	Geneko Nemeth: 	(And why should I always look at my avatar's butt?)
[15:57]	Garn Conover: 	should have that as a note in the imput/camera window maybe
[15:57]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I think we've already had a UXIG on cameras, but yeah, there are so many annoyances there
[15:57]	Charlette Proto: 	yes Jacek, it could be free for sure, also one could hide it in Debug if that was improved eg Tree structure added
[15:58]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay. Next up: Limit Select Distance
[15:58]	Charlette Proto: 	camera constraints^^
[15:58]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Mostly useful when building, I think?
[15:58]	Charlette Proto: 	Tools jacek
[15:58]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Yeah.
[15:58]	Geneko Nemeth: 	You don't want to mis-select.
[15:58]	Charlette Proto: 	lots of selection stuff is in Tools already
[15:58]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Tools. Maybe near the other "Select" options? (Select Only My Objects, etc.)
[15:58]	Charlette Proto: 	yes
[15:59]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Talking about mis-selecting, we definitely need to put "Delete all my inventory" right next to Rebake Textures. Prefereably on both sides :P
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay. Next: Hide Selected. Seems like that could go in the same place?
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Tools, near the other selection options
[16:00]	Charlette Proto: 	on the other hand the script stuff from Tools could be in Advanced or Edit
[16:00]	Charlette Proto: 	yes Hide Selected > Tools
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Good thoughts. Maybe next week we should talk about how the menus are arranged in general
[16:01]	Morgaine Dinova: 	The odd thing is why the menus are so scatterbrained out of the box. It's like a bmb hit them
[16:01]	Charlette Proto: 	some of the World menu (Stop Anim, set Busy etc) could go to Avatar if one was to add that
[16:01]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah
[16:02]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I know Malbers was attempting to reorder them some time, but it's quite a challenge. I think they're going to do a lot of reordering in Viewer 2.0, though
[16:02]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yeah
[16:02]	Charlette Proto: 	someone refactored the menus last christmas quite well, l'll try to find the notecard
[16:02]	Jacek Antonelli: 	We can talk about how to rearrange them next week, and then compare when Viewer 2.0 comes out, hehe
[16:02]	Morgaine Dinova: 	hehe
[16:02]	Mm Alder: 	I don't know why a menu item that fits in two places doesn't apepar in two places.
[16:02]	Morgaine Dinova: 	2025?
[16:02]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Next: Consoles > Fast Timers
[16:02]	Charlette Proto: 	do you remember Star (came a few times)
[16:03]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I do, Charlette. Wish she could come by more often
[16:03]	Mm Alder: 	I don't think you need to move Fast Timers.
[16:03]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I love fast timers, but none of the consoles need to be too accessibe. I use the shortcuts anyway
[16:03]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, so leave Fast Timers as it is?
[16:04]	Charlette Proto: 	she didn't want to play with a team i think, just wanted to do things kind of on her own, but had good stuff to contribute
[16:04]	Geneko Nemeth: 	What's the difference between Frame Console and Fast Timers?
[16:04]	Morgaine Dinova: 	All the consoles are regularly toggled anyway, so the menu is kinda irrelevant except to remember the shortcut
[16:05]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Geneko: Just presentation, I think. I think Fast Timers is supposed to replace Frame Console
[16:05]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Two different views of it Gen
[16:05]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Then why is it still here >_<
[16:05]	Charlette Proto: 	I have Star's "sl buckets" (menu refactoring notes) notecard if anyone wants it
[16:05]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Ohh. I was looking for that notecard.
[16:05]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yes please, Charlette
[16:05]	Geneko Nemeth: 	But I didn't realize it was so named.
[16:05]	Charlette Proto: 	find it by name
[16:06]	Charlette Proto: 	yeah buckets is lo last century hehe
[16:06]	Charlette Proto gave you sl buckets. 	Charlette Proto gave you sl buckets.
[16:06]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Thanks
[16:06]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, next... Rendering > Types menu
[16:06]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Some useful stuff in here
[16:07]	Mm Alder: 	Maybe in View?
[16:07]	Charlette Proto: 	that should be in World instead of the avie related functions
[16:07]	Charlette Proto: 	nooo View is about UI panels
[16:07]	Charlette Proto: 	View should stay as UI options
[16:08]	Charlette Proto: 	same like camera "Show Trees" etc belongs in World
[16:08]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I sometimes keep Rendering->Types up through the day, especially in OSgrid
[16:08]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Any in particular that should be moved, or just the whole menu?
[16:08]	Charlette Proto: 	the whole Render Types should be in world
[16:09]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Ok
[16:09]	Charlette Proto: 	I bet most agree the View is a UI options menu
[16:09]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Sigh, I have to mis-teleport out every meeting...
[16:09]	Jacek Antonelli: 	What about Rendering > Features? That has useful stuff, too
[16:09]	Morgaine Dinova: 	No, that menu needs to stay intact. Duplicate some if you want, but I often switch them all one and enable selected ones for tests etc. They can't be split. That meny control all rendering types, needs to me complete
[16:09]	Charlette Proto: 	what gen?
[16:09]	Morgaine Dinova: 	switch them all off*
[16:10]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Hmm... in Viewer2009 View is supposed to control the camera only.
[16:10]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Cripes, that line was barely intelligible
[16:10]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Rendering > Types > UI is probably one of the most used ones in that menu
[16:11]	Jacek Antonelli: 	For machinimatographers, anyway
[16:11]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Sigh. When can we have UI event collecting?
[16:11]	Mm Alder: 	What is UI event collecting?
[16:11]	Charlette Proto: 	really Gen I see camera as world related same for rendering detail
[16:11]	Morgaine Dinova: 	No, that menu needs to stay intact. Duplicate some of it you want, but I often switch all the entries off and enable selected ones for tests etc. They can't be split. That menu has to control all rendering types, needs to be complete
[16:12]	Morgaine Dinova: 	(corrected typos)
[16:12]	Charlette Proto: 	View menu traditionally is about UI options
[16:12]	Jacek Antonelli: 	View is a mixed bag, really
[16:12]	Jacek Antonelli: 	UI and camera and some in-world stuff, too
[16:12]	Geneko Nemeth: 	It's such a headache for us translators!
[16:13]	Charlette Proto: 	it is Jacek, but most apps use it for UI eg floaters
[16:13]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Any verdict on Rendering > Features before we move on?
[16:13]	Morgaine Dinova: 	That Rendering Types menu I always pin up to the display so it doesn't disappear, ie. turn it into a panel. And sometimes it stay up all day
[16:13]	Charlette Proto: 	I hate mixed bag semantics based on the word association
[16:13]	Jacek Antonelli: 	We can talk more about sorting out the View menu next week
[16:13]	Geneko Nemeth: 	And especially English word association.
[16:14]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Which reminds me ... why is pinning a menu up so obscure? That double line is kinda meaningless
[16:14]	Charlette Proto: 	Rendering Features in World too
[16:14]	Geneko Nemeth: 	It needs a tooltip, stat!
[16:14]	Charlette Proto: 	maybe one could rename the View menu to UI Options
[16:14]	Jacek Antonelli: 	What about View > Features > UI?
[16:14]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Erm, Rendering > Features > UI, I mean
[16:15]	Jacek Antonelli: 	It doesn't really fit in World
[16:15]	Mm Alder: 	Geneko, what needs a tooltip?
[16:15]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Mm: The tear-off line.
[16:15]	Mm Alder: 	That should be easy to do.
[16:15]	Charlette Proto: 	World is what you see in 3D
[16:15]	Charlette Proto: 	View is what you see in UI
[16:16]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Some decades ago, the OpenWindows UI on Sun workstations had a pushpin to the right of every menu list, and to the right of all single menu commands, to pin them up. That approach still hasn't been bettered.
[16:16]	Charlette Proto: 	and Account should be in Avatar
[16:16]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Charlette: That's fine, so should Rendering > Features > UI go in View, and the others in World?
[16:16]	Charlette Proto: 	World in my opinion Jacek
[16:17]	Charlette Proto: 	agrees with morg on the pushpin metaphor
[16:17]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, let's move on, just a few more left. UI > Show Time
[16:17]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Shows how long you've been logged in (or at least, how long the viewer has been running)
[16:18]	Charlette Proto: 	one should really define what each menu title refers too eg "World = 3D" rather than go by the word associations to do refactoring well
[16:18]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yes, we can do that next week when we talk about all the menus, Charlette
[16:18]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Show Time pretty crude right now, mainly intended for testing. So there's the issue of where it goes in the menu, and where the time should show on the UI
[16:19]	McCabe Maxsted: 	I could see it being useful as an inworld timer
[16:19]	Charlette Proto: 	once again Jacek it is Time spent In World
[16:19]	McCabe Maxsted: 	"let me know when I've spent three hours inworld"
[16:19]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Nice idea, McCabe
[16:19]	Mm Alder: 	It could be a momentary appearance too
[16:19]	Charlette Proto: 	haha alarm for those who need to go to the bank or school
[16:19]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Could be an alarm clock functionality in there, too -- yeah, as Charlette said
[16:20]	Geneko Nemeth: 	"You have spent three hours in-world. Due to mandatory regulations of the Chinese government, your in-game experience, drops and gold gain will be halfed. Except Second Life isn't a game - ha!"
[16:20]	Jacek Antonelli: 	"Ding dong, it's 3AM, time to stop cybering and go to bed"
[16:20]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hahaha
[16:20]	Geneko Nemeth: 	(And that regulation only applies to minors anyway.)
[16:20]	Charlette Proto: 	I'd love a calendar with international dates/times and was going to make a HUD once
[16:21]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe Jacek
[16:21]	Jacek Antonelli: 	So, do we want to show how long you've been in world anywhere, or just have the timer/alarm clock?
[16:21]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Maybe the clock tooltip could show how long?
[16:21]	Charlette Proto: 	next to the PDT time on the menubar
[16:21]	Mm Alder: 	I like that Jacek
[16:21]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Well it's mostly random anyway, I'm not sure if anyone except me uses it.
[16:21]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay
[16:22]	Charlette Proto: 	the crashes (short breaks) should be all added together, but that could be diff
[16:22]	McCabe Maxsted: 	wb morgaine
[16:22]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay. Next is Enable Lip Sync. I believe this is on by default in recent viewers?
[16:22]	Charlette Proto: 	carshes should not kill this kind of dispaly
[16:22]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Maybe we would have a statistics of which grids and sims the resident spends most in..
[16:22]	Mm Alder: 	Yep, already taken care of.
[16:23]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Any reason to have a menu item to turn it off?
[16:23]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Ta McCabe. I forgot that the damn Features commands can't be used in Linux, grrrrrr. That needs a patch, damn it.
[16:23]	Mm Alder: 	There's a preference to turn off lip sync.
[16:23]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Ah, okay
[16:23]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Next: Quiet Snapshots
[16:23]	Charlette Proto: 	Lips Sync is now in Prefs > Chat but it really is part of world (3D rendering)
[16:23]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Toggling the UI off in Linux works exactly once ... ;-)
[16:24]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Unless you're on Imprudence :D
[16:24]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hehe, you've remapped it sensibly?
[16:24]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yep. Alt-Shift-F1
[16:24]	Aimee Trescothick: 	or prefs voice depending how you look at it
[16:24]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Or if you remember where did you hide that *(%@&#( torn-off menu...
[16:24]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Cool, well done
[16:24]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Quiet Snapshots, anyone?
[16:25]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Maybe in the snapshot floater somewhere?
[16:25]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hmm... put in the snapshot floater?
[16:25]	Geneko Nemeth: 	But... the people who try to capture panties!
[16:25]	Charlette Proto: 	Good point McCabe
[16:25]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Thank goodness there is code in there that check for floater postion is out of window view and places it near the edge where one can still grab it and move it back into place.
[16:25]	Jacek Antonelli: 	McCabe: Jinx! Now you have to fix a bug before you can talk again.
[16:26]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay. Next: Character > Animation Info
[16:26]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Shows which animations avatars are playing
[16:26]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Mostly for debugging and fun.
[16:26]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yes. Should it be moved anywhere, or just left as it is?
[16:26]	Charlette Proto: 	well that could actually stay in Advanced
[16:26]	Mm Alder: 	Leave it.
[16:26]	Charlette Proto: 	Anim Info^
[16:27]	Charlette Proto: 	only reaks would need it
[16:27]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, leave that one. How about Slow Motion Anims?
[16:27]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Mweh Mweh! :O
[16:27]	Charlette Proto: 	freaks*
[16:27]	McCabe Maxsted fixed the hunger that was bugging my stomach with a pizza slice :P 	McCabe Maxsted fixed the hunger that was bugging my stomach with a pizza slice :P
[16:27]	Charlette Proto: 	I bet it was cold McCabe
[16:28]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehe, good enough
[16:28]	McCabe Maxsted: 	cold pizza is the best
[16:28]	McCabe Maxsted: 	anyway
[16:28]	Charlette Proto: 	coders eat cold pizza and wash it down with cola
[16:28]	McCabe Maxsted: 	worthy of animation preview?
[16:28]	McCabe Maxsted: 	...
[16:28]	McCabe Maxsted hides his can of coke 	McCabe Maxsted hides his can of coke
[16:28]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Move Slow Motion Anims to World, call it "Baywatch Mode" ?
[16:28]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hehe, I like cold pizza too. But it's actually quite a different food from fresh hot pizza.
[16:29]	Charlette Proto: 	Slow Mo could also stay in advanced, not really a normal user function
[16:29]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Leave it as is. Anyone else have an opinion on Slow mo?
[16:30]	Charlette Proto: 	this exercise is about usability and visibility of real functions which are hidden now not freak functions
[16:30]	McCabe Maxsted: 	if it's really useful for previewing, I'd put it in the preview before uploading feature
[16:30]	Geneko Nemeth is a freak. -w- 	Geneko Nemeth is a freak. -w-
[16:30]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Of course, at some point in this meeting it needs to be said that all these choices should just go into a named Preset. And different people will set up what is where through different presets. :-)
[16:30]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hrm. But it's also useful for viewing on your own avatar. And other avatars.
[16:31]	McCabe Maxsted: 	sounds like only if you're making animatinos, though
[16:31]	McCabe Maxsted: 	and yes, I meant animatinos
[16:31]	Jacek Antonelli: 	heh
[16:31]	McCabe Maxsted: 	they're like animations, but tinier and crunchy
[16:31]	Jacek Antonelli: 	So, this menu item is racist against people with animated ancestry?
[16:32]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Like this one?
[16:32]	Charlette Proto: 	I still dream of dynamically created toolbar sets of functions as the primary way of doing everyday stuff
[16:32]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	slow mo animations do not work on other avatars.
[16:33]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Ah, good point Tech
[16:33]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	I'me still looking at the code to see if that can be fixed. I have a project that needs that feature to work on all avtars at once.
[16:33]	Charlette Proto: 	maybe we should consider an 'Avatar' menu and put it there
[16:34]	McCabe Maxsted: 	side note: you can play anims by UUID right?
[16:34]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	NOpe.
[16:34]	Jacek Antonelli: 	No
[16:34]	Charlette Proto: 	things to do with your AV eg Appearance
[16:34]	McCabe Maxsted: 	okay, nm then
[16:34]	Jacek Antonelli: 	You used to, until someone exploited it
[16:34]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	lot of contect creaters would love too..
[16:34]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Lots of others would hate it, hehe.
[16:35]	Charlette Proto: 	HUDs need to contain the anim, but gestures can use any existing ones
[16:35]	Jacek Antonelli: 	You could make AOs that play anims you don't own
[16:35]	Charlette Proto: 	precisely Jacek
[16:35]	Jacek Antonelli: 	(Which is what the exploiter did, which made LL change it)
[16:35]	Charlette Proto: 	but you can't now
[16:35]	McCabe Maxsted: 	you all have floating uuids above your heads :)
[16:36]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, that's the last one on the list, so I think we're done here for today. Let's adjourn and meet next week, and we can talk about rearranging the other menus
[16:36]	Charlette Proto: 	and McCabe has a slice of pizza in a thought bubble floating above his head
[16:36]	McCabe Maxsted: 	mmm.... intangible pizza..... *drools*
[16:36]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Thanks for coming everyone, take care and see you next week!
[16:37]	Charlette Proto: 	yes, good effort and we should read Star's notecard for next meeting
[16:37]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Thanks Jacek