Open Source Meeting/2010-01-21

== Transcript ==
*[14:00] Merov Linden: ok, it's 2pm
*[14:00] Merov Linden: we can start that meeting
*[14:00] : hey yann
*[14:00] Merov Linden: the agenda is:
*[14:01] : hello!! ㋡
*[14:01] Merov Linden: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source_Meeting/Agenda
*[14:01] : Wikisnail.
*[14:01] : There we go.
*[14:01] Merov Linden: so, the thing we've been working on this last week is 1.3
*[14:01] : hello Aimee! LOL
*[14:01] Merov Linden: trying to finish this (get a decent build)
*[14:02] : Hi Sahk :-)
*[14:02] : :)
*[14:02] Merov Linden: I think we're getting there though there are still some issues pending (see my email yesterday)
*[14:02] : lol, your late vernes :p
*[14:02] : had something demanding attention
*[14:02] : lol
*[14:03] sees a Robin.
*[14:04] : Odd. Fred just rotated in a sitting position then vanished.
*[14:04] Merov Linden: and I waited for branching due to a couple of dangling patches
*[14:04] : miew! morgaine ㋡
*[14:04] : Hey Robin.
*[14:04] : Do you think you will get llTextBox in?
*[14:04] : ill not be helping with testing this time Merov, have already a lot of NDA stuff to do
*[14:04] : Hi ya
*[14:04] Merov Linden: so, anyway, I built the trunk this morning and you should all be running 3114 by now
*[14:04] Merov Linden: right? :)
*[14:04] : work for me got 4 times harder since the rest of my team actually left
*[14:05] : yeah, i have installed now :(
*[14:05] : oops
*[14:05] Merov Linden: Eddi: what's the ":(" for?
*[14:05] : Hi Eddi, Youri, Robin :-)
*[14:05] : ah, you understend i think ㋡
*[14:06] : lol, you finally felt the pebble i trew BEFORE the OH started? :p
*[14:06] : too much guild wars morg :p
*[14:06] : Sorry, in kitchen :-)
*[14:06] : lol, blaim the kitchen :p
*[14:06] : any plans to move the teleport button back in the IM window, with keeping the progile button there too?
*[14:07] Merov Linden: ok, well, I wanted to discuss with this crowd the 7 outstanding issues
*[14:07] Merov Linden: first, the pending patches
*[14:07] : I was wondering what people would like there.
*[14:07] Merov Linden: SNOW-122
*[14:07] : http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-122 
[#SNOW-122] disable crashlogger via client parameters (VWR-12678)
*[14:07] : its it progress (still)
*[14:07] : should be able to commit soon
*[14:07] Merov Linden: ok
*[14:08] : Any plans revolving caching?
*[14:08] : the patch has changed in a trival way from the original one so i'll just shoot
*[14:08] Merov Linden: you said it'd be ok for you to double commit if we were to branch
*[14:08] : yes i'm fine with that
*[14:08] Merov Linden: o wait: when will you "shoot"?
*[14:08] : trying to just finish the test on linux to check its still ok
*[14:09] : omg Liisa! Huge avi! cute too! :p
*[14:09] : ^^
*[14:09] : you're aware of Advanced >> Debugging >> Force LLError - it might help
*[14:09] Merov Linden: ok, so, I'm reading that as "later this afternoon", correct?
*[14:10] : Q said that major work on the cache was on the roadmap for this year, but without any other details, and I think that was for main viewer. The issue of Snowglobe should maybe be clarified, as cache is so mega important.
*[14:10] : Thickbrick yea,i use the errors there to test the pacth
*[14:10] Merov Linden: wait Morgaine, I'm trying to get clearance on 1.3 pending issues first
*[14:10] : kk
*[14:11] : Just responding to Vernes about cache
*[14:11] Merov Linden: ok, well, I'll wait for Robin's commit of SNOW-122 before branching
*[14:11] : Thanks Morgaine
*[14:11] Merov Linden: the other patch is rather big and unknown: SNOW-392
*[14:11] : http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-392 
[#SNOW-392] llTextBox in client Non-Functional - Functionality Patch Attached
*[14:11] Merov Linden: this one received massive votes
*[14:11] Merov Linden: 107
*[14:12] Merov Linden: so I gather people would like it
*[14:12] Merov Linden: but the patch is 1.22 based and needs serious work
*[14:12] Merov Linden: so I don't think it's fair to sneak it in Snowglobe right now
*[14:13] : If it is not done now when people are paying attention to it, would it come out in the near future?
*[14:13] : how risky is it for exisiting functionality (once it's ported )?
*[14:13] Merov Linden: Jonathan yes it will
*[14:14] Merov Linden: Thickbrick: I did a cursory look when I tried (unsuccesfully) to merge and it's not massive
*[14:14] Merov Linden: but it's right in the scripting code and we need to be cautious there
*[14:15] Merov Linden: we had to wait a long time before looking at it since Hewee was AWL for months
*[14:16] Merov Linden: well, ok, looks like a "punt" with a "do it next!" tag attached to it
*[14:16] Merov Linden: would be *really* nice though if someone (anyone) would take over the Snowglobe clean/port and post a new patch
*[14:17] Merov Linden: volunteers?
*[14:17] Merov Linden: Hewee seems a little swamped and not super responsive
*[14:17] : I looked and got lost. I don't think I am up to the task.
*[14:17] : im horrible in script
*[14:18] Merov Linden: k, well, may be someone will pcik it up, may be Hewee (I'll comment in JIRA to that effect when punting)
*[14:19] Merov Linden: ok, lets looks at the bugs now
*[14:19] Merov Linden: first, the "easy" ones
*[14:19] : is there actually a list somewhere in jira or in the wiki about wanted coders and such? (like what you just asked volenteers for)?
*[14:19] Merov Linden: SNOW-394
*[14:19] : http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-394 
[#SNOW-394] Installation: conflict on destop icon creation
*[14:19] : Perhaps a message can be sent on the sldev list about lltextbox needing a volunteer
*[14:20] Merov Linden: Vernes: there a wiki about how to participate
*[14:20] Merov Linden: Jonathan: yes, I'll do that too in my next 1.3 update
*[14:20] Merov Linden: so, 394 is a Windows 7 specific bug apparently
*[14:21] Merov Linden: I do *not* have a Windows 7 machine on hand
*[14:21] Merov Linden: makes it hard for me to test/fix
*[14:21] : yeah, mervo, why the software cant detect the dualcore processor on windows 64, and on linux i get this without trouble?
*[14:21] Merov Linden: besides, we haven't touched the installer in 1.3 (or even 1.2 for that matter)
*[14:21] : merov, sorry my typo ㋡
*[14:21] : Eddi - what dual-core? AMD by any chance?
*[14:22] : no its an e8400 lol
*[14:22] : 45 nano
*[14:22] : Odd...Windows build can't detect AMD dual-cores correctly either (Linux can).
*[14:22] Merov Linden: so I'm puzzled by that problem and, though concerning, I'm willing to not consider it as a show stopper
*[14:22] Merov Linden: agree?
*[14:22] Merov Linden: or rather: anyone disagree?
*[14:23] : ok for me ㋡
*[14:23] Merov Linden: I suspect that this installer issue is also existing with 1.23 BTW
*[14:23] : cause the bug is not only on snowglobe ..
*[14:23] : Merov, I haven't been able to repro SNOW-394 on my Windows 7.
*[14:23] Merov Linden: Ah!
*[14:23] Aimee Linden: from the comments seems they manually created the first icon
*[14:23] Merov Linden: well, please comment in JIRA to engage the reporter
*[14:24] : I will try some more then comment.
*[14:24] Merov Linden: yeah, and it depends as to whether or not you have admin priv
*[14:25] Aimee Linden: one's probably in the all users desktop thingy and the other one just for that user or something
*[14:25] : Hmm.... The installer should be elevating and installing for all users.
*[14:25] Aimee Linden: (can tell it's late in the day when I start calling folders "thingy")
*[14:25] Merov Linden: annoying to see Windows Explorer crashing after install though...
*[14:25] : :)
*[14:26] : If you manually create a shortcut as a user maybe ... I can try that.
*[14:26] Merov Linden: not that it never happens to me on XP with MS very own products mind you...
*[14:26] : Thing is, I prefer to uninstall then install. Not overwrite.
*[14:26] : thanks for the meeting Merov, i have to poof unfortunately
*[14:26] : So I will try overwritting some more.
*[14:26] Merov Linden: Anyway, seems that 394 not a show stopper it is
*[14:27] : bye bye all!
*[14:27] : It didn't stop me. :-)
*[14:27] : bye youri
*[14:27] : Hi OO ㋡
*[14:28] Merov Linden: next "easy" one: SNOW-447
*[14:28] : I would consider SNOW-335 a show stopper, though
*[14:28] : http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-447 
[#SNOW-447] Fonts become fuzzy and unreadable at any scale.
*[14:28] : http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-335 
[#SNOW-335] Installation: "Start Second Life now?" starts SL with admin account/privileges
*[14:28] : heh,s orry
*[14:28] Merov Linden: is 335 Snowglobe specific?
*[14:29] : Is there a way for the installer to release administrator privs before launching the application?
*[14:29] Merov Linden: I've never dabbled in the Windows installer so I'm a little wary hacking into it now...
*[14:29] : It shouldn't say "Start SecondLife now?" anyway, but start *Snowglobe* now.
*[14:29] : I don't lett installer launch when they ask so that never bites me.
*[14:29] : I don't think the installer on Windows has been fiddled with for year?
*[14:30] : I never did see the reason for offering that.
*[14:30] : years*
*[14:30] Merov Linden: Morgaine: right
*[14:30] : the comment by the original report in -335 says it's not snowglobe specific
*[14:30] : Most applications don't do that do they?
*[14:30] Merov Linden saw that about the not Snowglobe specific
*[14:31] Merov Linden: yeah, I've a hard time stopping 1.3 for this then
*[14:31] : No, it's an issue with the installer not being compatible use user account control on later windows versions.
*[14:32] : maybe it's time to upgrade to a newver version of the nullsoft installer after 1.3
*[14:32] : Is it an issue with Vista? It has more security, too
*[14:32] Merov Linden: Jonathan: no one tested this with Vista apparently
*[14:33] Merov Linden: ok, I'm still thinking it shouldn't be a show stopper
*[14:33] : Yes, I would say it probably hits Vista but cannot test as I never have hade a license for Vista.
*[14:33] : Not a showstopper, no.
*[14:33] : Says the guy who does not use Vista
*[14:33] Merov Linden: k, SNOW-447 now
*[14:33] Merov Linden: that one is possibly a regression introduced with 1.3
*[14:34] : Mojito, the issue affects Windows 7 too, the OS I do use.
*[14:34] : Ah, thats ok then. :)
*[14:34] Merov Linden: see my comment in there
*[14:34] Merov Linden: but I never got any confirmation from the reporter
*[14:34] Merov Linden: it
*[14:34] Merov Linden: it's just me and my all mighty crystal ball making guesses here
*[14:35] Merov Linden: anyone around here who saw this issue? could run a test with korean/japanese/chinese?
*[14:36] Merov Linden: anyone?
*[14:36] : I could test, but I wouldn't know how the characters are supposed to look.
*[14:36] : ANyone with W7 or Vista should have the fions, and I can send you some japanese
*[14:37] : 日本
*[14:37] Merov Linden: ah! let's IM him then
*[14:37] : I just did
*[14:38] : looks clear an crispy ...
*[14:38] : First symbol is a box with a horizontal line thru it
*[14:38] Merov Linden: thanks! can he/she come here?
*[14:38] : I hope he/she shows up in a moment
*[14:38] : Seoncd looks like a "T"　shape, but with diagonal lines down to the sides
*[14:38] Merov Linden: hi Satori!
*[14:38] : Greetings
*[14:38] Merov Linden: we were talking about the bug you reported on Snowglobe: SNOW-447
*[14:39] : oh... the fuzzy text font.
*[14:39] Merov Linden: wondering: which OS are you using and which language?
*[14:39] : BRB testing a moment
*[14:39] : XP sp3 with an nnvidia Gt6600
*[14:39] : pretty standard
*[14:39] Merov Linden: English?
*[14:40] : yep
*[14:40] Merov Linden: wow!
*[14:40] : Oh, was this in the chat history window, or in the superimposed chat scroll? Those fonts are different
*[14:40] will be right back too as he fixes his own fonts.
*[14:40] Merov Linden: so now, it's not what I thought
*[14:40] : all the fonts, which surprised me
*[14:40] : GUI and chat and...
*[14:40] : How is font scaling set in prefs?
*[14:41] : it stayed fuzzy even when I changed in and out of independent resoluton and different scaling
*[14:41] Merov Linden: Is that something that's specific to Snowglobe?
*[14:41] is getting sick and tired of this.
*[14:42] : Satori, screenshots comparing good and bad fonts would help here
*[14:42] : means reinstalling the latest and greatest, but I'll do it soon
*[14:43] : but it IS the greatest....
*[14:43] : :)
*[14:43] Merov Linden: ok, Satori, you should be adding those screen shot compare and other OS etc... data so we can make progress on this
*[14:43] : and a newer release just came out today
*[14:43] Merov Linden: first trying to repro ourselves
*[14:43] : cool
*[14:44] : I'd might have blamed it on an overheated GPU but the shaders usually got before the 2d text handlers
*[14:44] : go*
*[14:44] Merov Linden: ok, we'll see what we can do with the new info
*[14:45] : k... have fun and I'll use the newer version.
*[14:45] Merov Linden: next: SNOW-431
*[14:45] : http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-431 
[#SNOW-431] Boost downloads for Snowglobe 1.3 aren't really 1.39.0
*[14:45] Merov Linden: that one is a show stopper
*[14:45] Merov Linden: not to branch but to release
*[14:46] Merov Linden: I'm working with Brad internally to get this solved
*[14:46] Merov Linden: then we're left with the 2 threading issues
*[14:47] Merov Linden: SNOW-169
*[14:47] : http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-169 
[#SNOW-169] Viewer crash: LLViewerImage::doLoadedCallbacks: ASSERT (mRawImage.notNull())
*[14:47] Merov Linden: SNOW-196
*[14:47] : http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-196 
[#SNOW-196] Deadlock in LLTextureFetchWorker::lockWorkMutex / LLThread::lockData / LLTextureFetch::lockQueue
*[14:47] : hmm, weird, http://svn.secondlife.com/trac/linden/changeset/3087 only changed font on Mac - and Satori is on XP
*[14:48] : i think i can see a quick fix for 169 by reordering one of the locks so that they never get called in different sequences, but aleric has itentified other areas now so not sure how to processed
*[14:48] : *proceed
*[14:48] Merov Linden: well, I'd look at yout patch for 169 for sure
*[14:48] : that's 196 - 169 is still patchelss
*[14:49] : arrg stupid numbers, look to similar
*[14:49] Merov Linden: palindromes
*[14:49] Merov Linden: or almost...
*[14:49] : i'm not even convinced SNOW-169 is a race, since it seems to always happen with certain content
*[14:50] Merov Linden: hmm... you might be right
*[14:50] : Any chance SNOW-169 and SNOW-454 are related?
*[14:50] : http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-454 
[#SNOW-454] SL client freezes or crashes when an avatar wearing a specific object passes through the frustum.
*[14:50] finally fixed his DejaVuSansMono font.
*[14:50] : About to commit SNOW-122
*[14:50] : http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-122 
[#SNOW-122] disable crashlogger via client parameters (VWR-12678)
*[14:50] Merov Linden: the thing with 196 also is that it repros in Viewer 2
*[14:51] Merov Linden: Robin: yes?
*[14:51] Merov Linden: ok thanks Robin
*[14:52] Merov Linden: so, on those thread issues, I think we should leave them live (not punt them) biut branch anyway
*[14:52] Merov Linden: we'll do double commit if we find a fix in the next few days
*[14:53] Merov Linden: ok, are there any new incoming bugs that could be show stoppers?
*[14:53] : I found a crash today: SNOW-456
*[14:53] : http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-456 
[#SNOW-456] Crash when trying to file an Abuse Report (AR)
*[14:53] Merov Linden: ooops...
*[14:54] : Dunno if it's specific to my system, but can repro 100% here.
*[14:54] Merov Linden: Alexa can't repro
*[14:54] : Hm, I'll grab the latest build and try as I'm on Linux too.
*[14:54] : But 32-bit
*[14:54] : I filed 12 abuse reports last night using Snowglobe.
*[14:55] Merov Linden: someone else on Linux to try SNOW-456?
*[14:55] : I'm on standalone, maybe it's a specific lib version or something.
*[14:55] : Boroondas, which skin are you using?
*[14:55] : i'll try now : )
*[14:55] will be once he's got the viewer downloaded.
*[14:55] : Linux specific? Oh.
*[14:55] : default skin
*[14:55] : ok, trying it now
*[14:55] Merov Linden waits to see OObscure to disappear..
*[14:55] : if i crash now, i reproduce it.
*[14:55] : Default skin? Hm, I always use the Silver one.
*[14:56] : no . i just reported Merov. succesfully
*[14:57] Merov Linden: man, you reported me at the Abuse team?
*[14:57] : I wonder if it's something to do with you using 64-bit.
*[14:57] Merov Linden: I'm in trouble now...
*[14:57] : You didnt hit cancel at the end??
*[14:57] : LOL.
*[14:57] Merov Linden: :)
*[14:57] : hmm, didn't crash, but it took a while to resize teh screen for a screenshot (I think)
*[14:57] : 2010-01-21T22:56:17Z WARNING: createDummyWidget: Making dummy view named chat_check in floater_report_abuse 
2010-01-21T22:56:38Z INFO: display_stats: FPS: 4.20 
*[14:57] : 0.2 fps
*[14:57] : no. Merov, expect an official warning xD
*[14:58] : Sometimes when I repro this, SL spits out a trace (not always though.) Would that be useful?
*[14:58] Merov Linden tempted to try to repro on Mac but then... that'd be unfriendly as the meeting guy...
*[14:58] extracts the tarball.
*[14:58] : Ok, be right back.
*[14:58] Merov Linden: ok, well, looks like that one needs more testing
*[14:59] Merov Linden: ok, so, it looks like we *can* branch (once 122 is in) as we're not waiting for any new feature
*[14:59] : Boroondas, you get the crash on a linden-built viewer, or self built? (and is it a DEBUG build?)
*[14:59] Merov Linden: I'll do all that and create a clean RC (with the correct version number and channel) right away
*[14:59] : it's self-built
*[15:00] Merov Linden: now, we have only minutes left
*[15:00] : and standalone, as there are no prebuilt libs for x86_64
*[15:00] : Merov, what the login page picture URL gonna be? about:blank again?
*[15:00] : That made people ask me questions. :-)
*[15:01] : I guess they want to see pretty pictures.
*[15:01] Merov Linden: I don't know, I don;t think we change the login page picture for new Snowglobe versions in the past
*[15:01] Merov Linden: may be we should, I'll check that
*[15:02] Merov Linden: pretty picture is good
*[15:02] : re: SNOW-456 i now see that the bug is about a selfbuilt Snowglobe . my viewer is instead a test build i downloaded.
*[15:02] : When I buld myself I get a picture with a winter scene and a snow globe setting in the snow.
*[15:02] : I'll try with the test build later
*[15:03] Merov Linden: yeah, I can't remember off the top of my head when and where this URL is cahnged
*[15:03] : Okay. Just was curious.
*[15:03] Merov Linden: did that in the past with robla
*[15:03] : probably server side determined by the channel
*[15:03] Merov Linden: probably, yes
*[15:03] : Could someone tell me where the log file is kept on Linux? Snowglobe deadlocked right at login.
*[15:04] : ~/.secondlife/logs ?
*[15:04] : I'm on OMV right now.
*[15:04] : yes
*[15:04] : I'm obviously blind then.
*[15:04] : Viewer 2 coming in February (or March...) - 
 https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/technology/blog/2010/01/21/coming-soon-viewer-2-public-beta
*[15:04] : ooh
*[15:05] Merov Linden: well, that's a good segway in the next agenda item
*[15:05] : does that mean we will get a beta and be left in the dark for the code?
*[15:05] Merov Linden: "Life after 1.3"
*[15:05] : today we have a 2-hours meeting?
*[15:05] Merov Linden: no, I'm over time
*[15:06] Merov Linden: so, my next big work item will be "Snowglobe 2"
*[15:06] : yaaay !
*[15:06] Merov Linden: a rebasing of Snowglobe off the Viewer 2.0 code base
*[15:06] : Sounds painful.
*[15:06] : that means mergins everything from 2.0, or just http-textures and plugins?
*[15:06] Merov Linden: it's going to be loads of fun... (like Ardy says...)
*[15:06] : sounds interesting to me!
*[15:07] Aimee Linden gets icepacks ready
*[15:07] : I...don't see anything in the log that caused the deadlock. :s
*[15:07] Aimee Linden: and places a swear box on Merov's desk
*[15:07] : LOL Aimee¸
*[15:07] : :D
*[15:08] Merov Linden: well, I'm saying "rebase" and not "merge" as the code is so different it'll be easier to cherry pick the Snowglobe specific things and port them than trying to merge Viewer 2 directly
*[15:08] : Little newbie question, if I would have an idea that might increase performance of the viewer, the snowglobe viewer would be the first place the feature would be actually tested in if people were interested in it enough?
*[15:08] : Should the question be "What is NOT going to get rebased to Viewer2.0 in Snowglobe?" ?
*[15:08] Merov Linden: may be that should be the question but I'm not understanding it
*[15:08] : lol
*[15:08] blames self
*[15:09] : Vernes, that was one of the purposed of Snowglobe when it started
*[15:09] : *puposes
*[15:09] : Ok, thanks for clearing that up.
*[15:09] : *purposes, even
*[15:09] : Will all Snowglobe specific stuff be cherry-picked or just some? (Maybe that was Morgaine's question)
*[15:09] Merov Linden: Vernes: what Thickbrick said (minus typos)
*[15:09] : What parts of Snowglobe will get upgraded/downgraded/changed to Viewer2.0 counterparts?
*[15:09] Merov Linden: ah!
*[15:09] : Thanks :)
*[15:10] Merov Linden: OK, *all* will be cherry picked as a matter of principle
*[15:10] Merov Linden: but I'm sure to run into oddities and case by case issues
*[15:10] Merov Linden: some (in no particular order):
*[15:10] doesn't understand why Snowglobe didn't deadlock this time.
*[15:11] : I think there is a bit of confusion, will Snowglobe be made to look/work like V2.0, or will V2.0 be getting Snowglobe parts (or both)?
*[15:11] : it looks like Aleric is getting a handle on SNOW-196
*[15:11] Merov Linden: - features that are Snowglobe specific but already merged in Viewer 2.0: e.g. Minimap imrpvement, http-texture, pluginapi
*[15:12] Merov Linden: for those, I'll trust the Viewer2 code base and skip Snowglobe commits
*[15:12] Merov Linden: - features that are pure UI changes (e.g. small UI changes): I'll have to port (recode) those pretty much from scratch if they still make sense in the new UI...
*[15:12] : Merov, what aere we doing with trunk ATM? are we free to commit new things still? or is that going to mess the merge/rebase up?
*[15:13] : I guess we should, when we get access to it, try all our bug reproductions on Viewer 2.0.
*[15:13] Merov Linden: Robin: the svn trunk will be open for commit
*[15:13] Merov Linden: it's just that I won't be committing in it that much
*[15:13] Merov Linden: but you're welcome to still do it
*[15:14] : ok, its entire things that you already know about i will be committing, so they should also with rebasing commit to 2.0
*[15:14] Merov Linden: I *hope* I'll be able to come out of the pile soon-ush
*[15:14] Merov Linden: ish
*[15:14] Merov Linden: "they"?
*[15:15] : I'm not sure I understand the merging of Viewer2.0. Wasn't Snowglobe intended to be its own beast, and only kept in sync for protocol reasons? Only the forward-merging of new Viewer2.0 features makes sense to me.
*[15:15] Merov Linden: another change with Snowglobe 2: we'll be moving to hg (Mercurial)
*[15:15] : yay
*[15:16] : oh!
*[15:16] : something new to learn
*[15:16] Merov Linden: Morgaine: it's "its own thing" in the sense that we (this community) own where it goes, its agenda if you wish
*[15:16] Merov Linden: but it was never intended to be a fork from the main viewer
*[15:17] : Those two lines don't appear to be consistent
*[15:17] Merov Linden: as *most* of the improvements we do here are, eventually, candidates to be merged back into the main viewer
*[15:17] : I think that's another agenda item for post-1.3: where do we want to take snowglobe
*[15:17] Merov Linden: yeah, that's a big one indeed
*[15:18] : is it just a fast way to get stuff into the main viewer, or do we want to collect sa many features as we can, or somewher einthe middle
*[15:19] Merov Linden: it's a way to experiment with new things collectively faster than with the main viewer
*[15:19] Merov Linden: it's the place where other open source viewer will come to base their stuff from
*[15:20] Merov Linden: I'd like to see Snowglobe as the active core base for FLOSS viewers
*[15:20] : A lot of 3rd party clients seem to share a lot of the same additionional features, so it'd be useful if they could base themselves on code that already contains them, once an implementation has proven itself and is quasi-established. Though I don't know if Snowglobe could take that roll.
*[15:20] : *role
*[15:21] : I guess it's a shadow branch, rather than a fork. But the conflict arises if commits actually change the parts near the root of the branch --- if trunk doesn't accept the changes, then it's necessarily a fork.
*[15:21] Merov Linden: Boroondas: I see it could take such a role, the danger is to become the kitchen sink of all features
*[15:22] : to phrase is differently, where do we fall on the imprudence/emerald division
*[15:22] Merov Linden: Morgaine: yes, but there is small and big changes, core and satellite
*[15:22] : Actually, the kitchen sink is very useful because it creates commonality. The big danger with kitchen sink is bloat leading to flakiness.
*[15:22] Merov Linden: bloat is something I'd like to avoid
*[15:23] : Well, the feature would have to be present or wanted in a majority of 3rd party viewers to be included. But could that be the only criterion? Like, RLVa seems quite popular to have around (even if not everyone who has it it their viewer uses it).
*[15:23] Merov Linden: that's what makes the viewer so hard to grok
*[15:23] mumbles "refactored multi-process viewer" ...
*[15:24] Merov Linden: here's a comparison: I'd like to see Snowglobe as the "Webkit" of FLOSS viewers
*[15:24] Merov Linden: in a way
*[15:24] : makes sense
*[15:24] Merov Linden: ok, I know, we are *not* there yet due to the interdependencies between parts (especially UI...)
*[15:24] Merov Linden: but, conceptually, that'd be the ideal
*[15:25] Merov Linden: the core functionalities of an ideal, streamlines viewer
*[15:26] : hypothetrically, if someone post a patch for snowglobe that is a redesign/refactoring of some basic system (say inventory), 1) what are the chances of that getting into snowglobe, 2) what are the chances of something like that being picked up by the main LL viewer
*[15:26] Merov Linden: so that may mean that if viewer blah wants to add a feature for their particular vertical / use case, we'd say: well, do it, but we won't take it in Snowglobe
*[15:27] Merov Linden: Thickbrick: it's hard to answer that question in abstracto
*[15:27] : It's not just a matter of vote and pro vs cons?
*[15:27] : I guess, but I'm asking what factor affect the decision
*[15:27] : what factors
*[15:27] : I don't think it's up to us what makes it back into main viewer, it's strictly an internal LL thing to ponder.
*[15:27] Merov Linden: I'd say "the chances are fairly good" but that depends on what server side assumption this change makes, how sound it is, etc...
*[15:28] : I'm asking from an intrusivense in varous part of the viewer angle
*[15:28] : If merges to Snowglobe are subject to likelihood of main viewer merging them, then clearly Snowglobe is in a straightjacket.
*[15:29] Merov Linden: Morgaine: I don't see it that way
*[15:29] Merov Linden: really
*[15:30] Merov Linden: if we want to design a system collaboratively that takes al aspect into consideration (including interop and protocols) we are in a straightjacket anyway
*[15:30] : Well, it's hypothetical or abstract anyway, as you said. Let's wait to see if there are any useful commits rejected on main viewer unsuitability grounds.
*[15:31] Merov Linden: we could do things the "MS IE" way (implement in IE and throw it to the face of the W3C...) but is that a model you want to follow?
*[15:31] : That begs the question of who is who in the analogy ^_^
*[15:31] Merov Linden: I know it doesn't work really... and it's not advisable...
*[15:32] Merov Linden: ah! yes, there's no W3C for VW... yet! but one can argue that the community as a whole is shaping as a body in need of interop standards
*[15:32] : Agreed.
*[15:33] Merov Linden: so in that comparison, LL would be MS... or rather, I'd like LL not to become MS :)
*[15:33] chuckles
*[15:34] Merov Linden: well, I worked on VML while at MS so I know which way to do things it harmful to all
*[15:34] Merov Linden: lessons learned
*[15:34] Merov Linden: ok, we're *waaay* over time and I bet we've all plenty of things to do
*[15:35] : Cyu Merov, tc :-)
*[15:35] Merov Linden: thanks for staying that long and helping sorting the last 1.3 issues out
 
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