Beta Server Office Hours/Minutes/2010-10-07

Category:Beta Server Office Hours - Minutes
This meeting was held on October 07th, 2010
= Agenda =
=== Discuss resolution of previous open items ===
=== Updates ===
There was no production upgrade this week
* The RC on BlueSteel/LeTigre failed to pass AC
* We rolled forward the RC's with bug fixes.
We had to roll back the RC that was on BlueSteel and LeTigre
* https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Beta/BlueSteel
* it was an issue with the simulator forgetting your session id on tp's from RC regions.
* land buying and L$ purchases were failing.
Next week is a new RC
* Perhaps two competing RC's!!
** get out your banjos
Andrew's maint-server fixes
* Andrew is here to talk about what is coming in as fixes soon.
Mesh Public Beta next week!!!
* We have two guest speakers.
** Vir Linden will give an overview of what to expect.
** Falcon Linden will answer technical questions.
=== Releases ===
* There were no full production releases this week.
* BlueSteel RC was updated to 10.10.05.211372
** https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Beta/BlueSteel
* BlueSteel RC 10.10.05.211372 was rolled back
=== Any other business ===
What you want to talk about goes here
* Update on getting some regions of the grid set aside to not be rolled so often, please. - JB
* Status of Mono on it's Internal Grid
* When will the fix for Estate Ban Evasion finally be rolled to the Grid?
* Status of Notices not showing sender in email
= Meeting Minutes =
= Transcript =
Transcript of Oskar Linden's Beta Server Office Hour for October 07th, 2010:
* 
* [14:59] Oskar Linden: bam
* [14:59] Lares Carter: heya Oskar
* [14:59] Liny Odell: hia oskar
* [14:59] Oskar Linden: hi all
* [14:59] Ravelli Ormstein: hello oskar
* [15:00] Psi Merlin: Hi Oskar, Falcon
* [15:00] Srilania Svoboda: OW dangit Kadah, that was my foot!
* [15:00] JS Streamwechsler-HUD: whispers: Paskis' Radio TV - Initialised
* [15:01] Oskar Linden: good day to you all
* [15:01] JS Streamwechsler-HUD: whispers: Warning, it appears that the land here is owned by someone else, or group owned. You will need to use the subwoofer, deeded to a group, to use the Radio TV on group land.
* [15:01] JS Streamwechsler-HUD: whispers: Paskis' Radio TV - Ready!
* [15:01] Cinder Roxley: ji
* [15:01] Tonya Souther: Howdy!
* [15:01] Cinder Roxley: hi
* [15:01] Marigold DevinMarigold: Devin waves from the back
* [15:02] Oskar Linden: big crowd today huh?
* [15:02] Jacky Scharf: Good evening everybody. 
* [15:02] Jacky's translator: Good evening everybody. 
* [15:02] Oskar Linden: i like it
* [15:02] TankMaster Finesmith: good afternoon
* [15:02] Flynn Tigerpaw: I think we may fill up the sim
* [15:02] Oskar Linden: I'll give a few minutes to let people rez
* [15:02] Falcon Linden: Oskar, did you invite additional people?
* [15:02] Yuki Kohime: hi !
* [15:02] Moundsa Mayo: Yah, he tweeted WoW.
* [15:02] Oskar Linden: I merely put out the word that you would be here falcon
* [15:02] Oskar Linden: and bam
* [15:02] Falcon Linden: Stop saying bam. :P
* [15:03] Jacky Scharf: Yo bm :-D
* [15:03] Jacky's translator: Yo bm:-D
* [15:03] Oskar Linden: :-)
* [15:03] Oskar Linden: looks like we've got enough here to get started
* [15:04] Serenity Rosencrans: oops
* [15:04] Oskar Linden: here is the agenda
* [15:04] Oskar Linden: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Beta_Server_Office_Hours
* [15:04] Oskar Linden: wow. even local chat is lagging
* [15:04] NTBI Supertape: II D Box: Unpacking you should see a folder called 'NTBI Supertape II D Box in your inventory
* [15:04] Psi Merlin: Hi andrew, Simon, Maestro and Welcome Vir
* [15:04] Maestro Linden: hi everybody
* [15:04] Cinder Roxley: it does that when there are this many people and incoming tp's
* [15:04] Oskar Linden: so it's been a rough week
* [15:04] Eddi Decosta: heya Maestro 
* [15:04] Eddi Decosta: hi Oskar welcome 
* [15:04] Oskar Linden: but we uncovered a lot of issues
* [15:05] Oskar Linden: the last RC didn't go out so smooth
* [15:05] Oskar Linden: unfortunately it wasn't bug free long enough to get rolled this last tuesday
* [15:05] Jessica Lyon: lol
* [15:05] TankMaster Finesmith: 61 people on my radar
* [15:05] TankMaster Finesmith: of those, about 50 within 20m
* [15:05] Oskar Linden: we put out some bug fixes and things were looking good for next week
* [15:05] Oskar Linden: but then we ran into an issue yesterday that we had to roll back for
* [15:06] TankMaster Finesmith: the $$ issue?
* [15:06] Oskar Linden: some agent presence code wasn't properly telling new sims about their backend session ids so some things would fail after tp's from RC regions
* [15:06] Oskar Linden: it involved L$ and buying land
* [15:06] Oskar Linden: not even testable on ADITI
* [15:07] Oskar Linden: so hard one to catch
* [15:07] Maestro Linden: (see WEB-2981)
* [15:07] JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/WEB-2981: 
* [#WEB-2981] Land Purchase: will not 'Authenticate' Buyer 
* [15:07] Sigma Avro: lol, so send lands on aditi
* [15:07] Sigma Avro: *dsell
* [15:07] Oskar Linden: it made for a bumpy week. we decided this morning to let BlueSteel cool down and rolled to LeTigre only
* [15:07] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
* [15:08] Oskar Linden: we'll see whe comes of next week
* [15:08] Oskar Linden: there were also a lot of peripheral issues last week that made the RC's look worse than they were so I'm glad that week is over
* [15:08] Oskar Linden: :-D
* [15:08] Rex Cronon: what is going on?
* [15:08] Oskar Linden: although I was in the SF office last week and it was cool to see everyone down there
* [15:09] Serenity Rosencrans: :)
* [15:09] Oskar Linden: the RC had some issues, but then there were some other unrelated issues that made things difficult
* [15:09] Rex Cronon: i get this non-stop: warning: llvoiceclient:statemachine: region doesn't have parcelvoiceinforequest...
* [15:09] Oskar Linden: I think S3 kinda crapped out for a few hours one afternoon
* [15:10] Oskar Linden: next week will be interesting. lots going on and we might have two rc's out at the same time
* [15:10] Oskar Linden: one of them is from Andrew
* [15:10] Oskar Linden: his maint-server branch is going to be ready
* [15:10] Oskar Linden: Andrew do you wanna talk about that?
* [15:10] Maestro Linden: same here Rex. Looks like voice is down on this region
* [15:10] Andrew Linden: Sure...
* [15:10] Liny Odell: voice is connected for me but idk
* [15:11] Maestro Linden: maybe it's just us then, hehe
* [15:11] Andrew Linden: Actually my maint-server stuff is already up and running on aditi for those who want to play with it... just 4 regions I think:
* [15:11] Andrew Linden: Oatmeal 9, 13, 14, and Sandbox Cordova (last time I checked)
* [15:11] Andrew Linden: I'll verify in a little bit...
* [15:11] Rex Cronon: weird
* [15:11] Andrew Linden: The most interesting things that are new there are:
* [15:12] Andrew Linden: (1) a new llSetPrimitiveParams() parameter called PRIM_ROT_LOCAL
* [15:12] Gooden Uggla: shouts: gee, i wonder who's using the av crasher?
* [15:12] Sigma Avro: end of
* [15:12] Andrew Linden: which is supposed to provide a fix for SVC-93 (and partial implementation of feature request SVC-129)
* [15:12] JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-93: 
* [#SVC-93] llSetPrimitiveParams PRIM_ROTATION: and llSetRot incorrectly implemented for child prims 
* [15:12] JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-129: 
* [#SVC-129] Need PRIM_LOCAL_ROTATION: and PRIM_LOCAL_POSITION to complement llGetLocalRot() and llGetLocalPos() 
* [15:12] Sigma Avro: 93
* [15:12] Andrew Linden: (2) Terrain collisions are a bit faster
* [15:13] Andrew Linden: that may be measurable by running several Kart-1.0 from the inventory library simultaneously
* [15:13] Sigma Avro: bit ?
* [15:13] Falcon Linden: particularly in the case where you're not actually colliding with the terrain
* [15:14] JB Hancroft: (region is full)
* [15:14] Andrew Linden: yeah a bit... maybe 3x as fast for terrain collisions, however you really have to pound on the terrain with some dynamic tori to notice it
* [15:14] Falcon Linden: And using dynamic tori makes Falcon cry.
* [15:14] Andrew Linden: and when you do... you have all the work being spent simulating the tori, so it is hard to ferret out the terrain optimizations there
* [15:14] Andrew Linden: (3) SVC-6063 should be fixed
* [15:14] JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-6063: 
* [#SVC-6063] Object doesn't: appear in Inventory when taken while frozen by grey goo fence 
* [15:15] Serenity Rosencrans: (is PRIM_POSITION_LOCAL coming soon then?)
* [15:15] Andrew Linden: (4) there is support for a new feature we're calling "simconsole"
* [15:15] Jessica Lyon: o.0
* [15:15] Andrew Linden: it is a command line interface (CLI) into the simulator
* [15:15] Oskar Linden: everyone clap for that
* [15:15] Andrew Linden: but you need a special viewer in order to use it
* [15:15] Serenity RosencransSerenity: Rosencrans blinks
* [15:15] Cinder RoxleyCinder: Roxley perks up.
* [15:15] Andrew Linden: and there aren't many commands available atm
* [15:15] Ravelli OrmsteinRavelli: Ormstein applauds
* [15:15] Falcon Linden: To answer all of your questions about the sim console before you ask them:
* [15:15] Falcon Linden: No.
* [15:16] Sigma Avro: CLI, great
* [15:16] Liny Odell: is that like the client debug console on the client, but from the sim?
* [15:16] Falcon Linden: :)
* [15:16] Jessica Lyon: lol Falcon
* [15:16] Andrew Linden: Most of the commands that actually do soemthing are for admin and debug purposes
* [15:16] Andrew Linden: and are god-only
* [15:16] Falcon Linden: (See above, under "No" :))
* [15:16] Jessica Lyon: sigh
* [15:16] Andrew Linden: er no... I think some are available for estate managers
* [15:16] Andrew Linden: like "shutdown"
* [15:16] Latif Khalifa: would there be any documenttion for the API that needs to be used to add cosole functionlity to clients?
* [15:16] Andrew Linden: anyway, I'm going to try to figure out how to host a viewer that has the simconsole available
* [15:16] Eddi Decosta: hi kelly 
* [15:17] Andrew Linden: or host the code....
* [15:17] Falcon Linden: Latif: it's a trivial API. I'll tell you write now: you POST a string to the correct cap and you print the response to the user :)
* [15:17] Kelly Linden: :)
* [15:17] Andrew Linden: I need to ask around to figure out how to do it.
* [15:17] Sigma Avro: well, good first move for CLI. Is viewer updated accordingly ?
* [15:17] Maestro Linden: yes, right now an estate manager / region owner has access to 2 commands: 1) restart the sim 2) toggle tri-sampled 'accurate' terrain modeling
* [15:17] Andrew Linden: Lesse... one last thing to mention...
* [15:17] Latif Khalifa: Falcon, still need to know the cap name, and what to post
* [15:17] Falcon Linden: when mesh comes out, estate owners will have the option of fixing SVC-5880
* [15:17] JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-5880: 
* [#SVC-5880] Vehicles "Jumping": when crossing prims 
* [15:17] Falcon Linden: Latif: you post the command :)
* [15:17] Andrew Linden: (5) We've got a different heightfield implementation that can used
* [15:18] Falcon Linden: Latif: and the cap is called "SimConsole" I think.
* [15:18] Andrew Linden: called the "tri-sampled heightfield" -- it provides slightly more correct collision info, but is slightly less efficient
* [15:18] Andrew Linden: however, given the terrain optimizations it might not be much slower than the old one
* [15:18] Andrew Linden: anway, it can only be enabled via the simconsole and the a region restart
* [15:19] Falcon Linden: Andrew: still need the restartt? Thought I eliminated that requirement
* [15:19] Andrew Linden: a few estate owners who do race-em type stuff might be interested in playing around with it
* [15:19] Andrew Linden: that's all I've got
* [15:19] Sigma Avro: simcole is external to client ?
* [15:19] Andrew Linden: back to you Oskar
* [15:19] Oskar Linden: it is internal to the client
* [15:19] Andrew Linden: Simconsole is part of the viewer UI. server-side support in in my maint-server work
* [15:19] Oskar Linden: invoked witha keyboard shortcut
* [15:19] Sigma Avro: (tks for translating oskar, sory for typo)
* [15:20] Oskar Linden: so it's not in any viewer branch yet except for Andrews custom build
* [15:20] Oskar Linden: I told him to burn some cd's and put them in a box outside the battery office in SF
* [15:20] TankMaster Finesmith: LOL @ You cannot currently invite anyone to your location because the region is full. Try again later.
* [15:20] Oskar Linden: so go get em
* [15:20] Eddi Decosta: i love this two word, custum build 
* [15:20] Oskar Linden: yay full region!
* [15:21] Maestro LindenMaestro: Linden ups the limit to 80 avatars
* [15:21] Latif Khalifa: just make a wiki page documenting the cap, TPVs will have the functionality in couple of days
* [15:21] Oskar Linden: they can camp in ahern and watch from across the sim. I will be posting the transcripts soon
* [15:21] Jessica Lyon: needs higher agent limit
* [15:21] Eddi Decosta: 80 avatar, with 2 viewer open and no more lag?
* [15:21] Eddi Decosta: what the?
* [15:21] Eddi Decosta: LOL
* [15:21] Eddi Decosta: nice work 
* [15:21] Oskar Linden: 80 is plenty
* [15:21] Eddi Decosta: hhi Laurent 
* [15:22] Oskar Linden: now if we all strip down to our meshes we might fit a few mre in
* [15:22] Laurent Bechir: hello
* [15:22] Oskar Linden: cool. thanks for the update on that andrew
* [15:22] Latif Khalifa: for the best results, teleport naked ;)
* [15:22] Oskar Linden: the sim console work is really exciting for me
* [15:22] Oskar Linden: I can't wait to see it extended further
* [15:23] Fellony Lock: Pick Hud: Reading pickconfig note card....
* [15:23] Fellony Lock: Pick Hud: Reading pickconfig note card....
* [15:23] Oskar Linden: any questions about andrews stuff?
* [15:23] Serenity Rosencrans: did he say anything about PRIM_POSITION_LOCAL?
* [15:24] Object: To: join our group 1) open your chat history, 2) click on the link, and 3) press the Join button. 
* [15:24] Object: : Second Life Beta
* [15:24] Jonathan Yap: Does this new version Andrew have the sim freeze fix in it, or is that later?
* [15:24] Andrew Linden: That isn't implemented yet Serenity.
* [15:24] Serenity Rosencrans: is it coming?
* [15:24] Oskar Linden: THE sim freeze fix?
* [15:24] Andrew Linden: There is a crash mode fixed
* [15:24] Sigma Avro: I suppose SVC93 will be closed, my mailbox is full of it
* [15:24] Tonya Souther: SVC-3895 and SVC-4196.
* [15:24] JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4196: 
* [#SVC-4196] Avatar entering: sim or rezzing object causes sim to freeze for up to 30 seconds - everything stops for everybody there 
* [15:24] JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-3895: 
* [#SVC-3895] Rezzing Mono: scripted object cripples sim FPS 
* [15:24] Andrew Linden: that relates to a grief mode where too many rezzes happen within a single simulator frame
* [15:24] Jonathan Yap: Oskar, the fix for when someone TPs in or out and the sim freezes for a moment
* [15:24] Object: To: join our group 1) open your chat history, 2) click on the link, and 3) press the Join button. 
* [15:24] Object: : Second Life Beta
* [15:25] Andrew Linden: There are several "sim freeze" fixes that are in the works (done but not yet deployed)
* [15:25] Latif Khalifa: where "moment" can be up to minute when it gets really bad
* [15:25] Andrew Linden: my maint-server has one such fix (the aforementioned griefer crash mode)
* [15:25] Andrew Linden: But the other RC Oskar was going to talk about has another fix
* [15:25] Andrew Linden: (I think)
* [15:25] Object: To: join our group 1) open your chat history, 2) click on the link, and 3) press the Join button. 
* [15:25] Object: : Second Life Beta
* [15:25] Eddi Decosta: Andrew this is realy appreciated 
* [15:26] Sigma Avro: well, lol, would be great ti know the nature of sim freeze fixes
* [15:26] Kelly Linden: (some fixes for the mono-related sim stalls when agents enter a region is running smooth so far on an internal grid that meastro is testing)
* [15:26] Oskar Linden: the last RC did have a very unfriendly crash mode that would crash the server if you took someone of your friends list. everything was fine until someone wanted to end a relationship
* [15:26] Jessica Lyon: win
* [15:26] Eddi Decosta: if you can find a thing anti-crash againts the griefers, im very very happy!! Andrew
* [15:26] Hope Dreier: now that is funny
* [15:27] JB Hancroft: anti-social network
* [15:27] Latif Khalifa: Kelly, those freezes are very hard to repro on test grids. They get worse over time in busy places where people come in and out ll day long
* [15:27] Oskar Linden: it does look like Vir came back
* [15:27] Sigma Avro: good side and bad sides of fixes please
* [15:27] Oskar Linden: he keeps crashing out
* [15:27] Tensai Hilra: heh
* [15:27] TankMaster FinesmithTankMaster: Finesmith wonders if he should drop the emerald support group...
* [15:27] Liny Odell: lol tank
* [15:27] Srilania Svoboda: I tried dropping groups Tank. they're all ghosting
* [15:27] Tater Todd: nah thats crazy talk :)
* [15:27] Eddi Decosta: Oskar, you know i hate the griefs crash loll i think :p
* [15:27] Rex Cronon: maybe those warnings i get can actually crash some viewers?
* [15:27] Oskar Linden: we can move the conversation to mesh if you guys are finished with questions for andrew
* [15:27] Eddi Decosta: yep *
* [15:27] Psi Merlin: Andrew, can you get he simconsole changeset up on bitbucket so we can pull iit into or viewer builds?
* [15:28] Jessica Lyon: \o/
* [15:28] Hope Dreier: Emerald? What Emerald? There never Was any Emerald
* [15:28] TankMaster Finesmith: thats cus you had 33 groups, sirl
* [15:28] Andrew Linden: Psi, yes I'll try to figure out how to do that.
* [15:28] Oskar Linden: <_<
* [15:28] Liny Odell: wait, 33 groups?
* [15:28] Andrew Linden: Hopefully I'll have something by EOD tomorrow.
* [15:28] Sigma Avro: Well sory but SVC 4196 and 3895 are not clear for me
* [15:28] TankMaster Finesmith: yeah
* [15:28] Psi Merlin: Thanks
* [15:28] TankMaster Finesmith: 33 of 25
* [15:28] Oskar Linden: cool. we'll email the list and message it in world when we have something
* [15:28] Sigma Avro: lag
* [15:29] Oskar Linden: on the server-beta list
* [15:29] Liny Odell: SVC-4196 SVC-3895
* [15:29] Oskar Linden: alright. I'll take this opportunity to introduce Vir Linden
* [15:29] Oskar Linden: Vir is the head cat wrangler for the Mesh project
* [15:29] Vir Linden: Catch me quick before I crash again :-)
* [15:29] Marigold Devin: catfish?
* [15:29] XLR8RRICK Hudson: Hiya Vir
* [15:29] Sigma Avro: I mean the fixes
* [15:29] Vir Linden: heh
* [15:29] Marigold Devin: great av
* [15:29] Rex Cronon: hi vir
* [15:30] Liny Odell: vir, try phoenix, it doesnt crash as much
* [15:30] Oskar Linden: Vir why don't you give us a rundown of how the mesh open beta is going to look
* [15:30] JB Hancroft: Nice to meet you, Vir.
* [15:30] Maestro Linden: Sigma: the fixes aren't out yet, but hopefully we'll have something on aditi within a week or two
* [15:30] Vir Linden: sure, so open beta is coming to aditi
* [15:30] Vir Linden: it's in the same regions as the current closed beta
* [15:30] Sigma Avro: Ok Maestro tks
* [15:30] Vir Linden: only more open...
* [15:30] Vir Linden: Oct 13 is the target date for rollout
* [15:31] Vir Linden: People will need a new viewer download (project viewer)
* [15:31] Falcon Linden: Just to set expectations, although we're calling this a beta, please consider it an alpha.
* [15:31] Falcon Linden: That is, expect it to crash. Frequently.
* [15:31] Vir Linden: It's only on some regions because there's sim-side support as well.
* [15:31] Tonya Souther: No program survives contact with users.
* [15:31] Oskar Linden: and please call falcon personally every time it crashes
* [15:31] Vir Linden: and developers :-)
* [15:32] Vir Linden: so we're excited to get more testers and more feedback
* [15:32] Falcon Linden: Anyone who calls me for any question that isn't confirmably physics-related will be blocked from IMing me and summarily executed...errr... :P
* [15:32] Jessica Lyon: lol
* [15:32] Sigma Avro: lol, poor Falcon
* [15:32] Oskar Linden: falcon's phone number is a 10 digit prime. figure it out. there's not too many
* [15:32] Falcon Linden: hahaha
* [15:32] Ambroff Linden: lol
* [15:32] TankMaster FinesmithTankMaster: Finesmith can rezz 2048 cubes and set them all physical, does that count as being physics inclined?
* [15:32] Vir Linden: So the time period of the beta is TBD - we're going to be bug fixing and also doing a lot of UI work
* [15:32] Moundsa Mayo: Falcon, if we are walking while IMing, won't that be physics-related?
* [15:32] Jacky Scharf: [15:29
* [15:32] Hope DreierHope: Dreier fires up her supercomputer netwoek
* [15:33] XLR8RRICK Hudson: Sent in triplicate due to lag
* [15:33] Falcon Linden: TankMaster it counts as being a physics griefer :P
* [15:33] Oskar Linden: what sort of bugs are you hoping people will file Vir?
* [15:33] ac14 Hutson: !! Since this is a beta im sure tons of pepole will be interresting in trying, do you know if the regions for it will have some form of autoreturn,.
* [15:33] TankMaster Finesmith: :D
* [15:33] Vir Linden: Running on the mac seemed to fix the crashes - there may or may not be any general moral there
* [15:33] Vir Linden: there
* [15:33] Liny Odell: jacky, there is a group dropdown list that has "secondlife_beta" in it
* [15:33] Oskar Linden: do we have a specific area in jira for issues to be filed yet?
* [15:33] Rex Cronon: u guys expect us to make scrambled meshes:)
* [15:33] Jacky Scharf: Oh, thx Liny.
* [15:33] Vir Linden: re: autoreturn, yes. We'll have a bunch of sandboxes (35 regions) with 1-day return.
* [15:33] Liny Odell: or something like that
* [15:33] Oskar Linden: some regions will ac14. some will be no build just for looking
* [15:34] Vir Linden: JIRA area is CTS
* [15:34] Aki Shichiroji: I have to say i haven't found the more recent builds crashy at all...
* [15:34] Jessica Lyon: list of regions Vir?
* [15:34] Falcon Linden: Also in the mesh beta:
* [15:34] Laurent Bechir: will we have documentation on the wiki about meshes ?
* [15:34] Falcon Linden: llCastRay (new API, will post to wiki at some point soon)
* [15:34] Vir Linden: 
* [15:34] Falcon Linden: Laurent: you're funny :)
* [15:34] Jessica Lyon: ty
* [15:34] Falcon Linden: Documentation
* [15:34] Falcon Linden: hehe
* [15:34] Liny Odell: ray casting in LSL?
* [15:34] Vir Linden: 
* [15:35] Vir Linden: all under construction...
* [15:35] Falcon Linden: Also, custom gravity multipliers, friction, restitution, and density
* [15:35] Oskar Linden: llCastRay() is going to rock. Falcon has been working hard on that and the simconsole. he does it because he loves each of you very much.
* [15:35] Tonya Souther: what's it do?
* [15:35] Laurent Bechir: ok
* [15:35] Sigma Avro: want to be a mesh city too, snif
* [15:35] Falcon Linden: and because he loves it when you don't make his physics engine suffer
* [15:35] Falcon Linden: :P
* [15:35] JB Hancroft: but we will make it suffer, that's why we're here :))
* [15:36] Liny Odell: physics lag is always fun
* [15:36] ac14 Hutson: Vehicles still are like bars of soap :<
* [15:36] Vir Linden: Mesh City is going to be used as a restricted, showcase area. We'll have some process for adding new cool stuff there.
* [15:36] Falcon Linden: ac14: not with 5x gravity, high friction, and low restitution
* [15:36] Sigma Avro: well, these special physics will make a lot of nobs completly crazy
* [15:36] Oskar Linden: we are also in the process of upgrading the inv servers here on ADITI. we were fast running out of space.
* [15:36] Jennifur Vultee: Vir is it just me or is the Mesh City region gone? I don't see it at all
* [15:37] Vir Linden: We've had some crashes the last couple of days
* [15:37] ac14 Hutson: yea but i mean, i would love to be able to specify what prims are wheels, and have them dynamicly move and roll relitave to the car
* [15:37] Drongle McMahon: It comes and goes.
* [15:37] Falcon Linden: In fact, mesh city is sitting crashed in my debugger right now
* [15:37] Vir Linden: blame falcon!
* [15:37] Sigma Avro: are LL promoting some opensource mesh soft ?
* [15:37] Falcon Linden: ac14: And I'd love for people like you to be banned from making anything physics related, but we can't all have what we want :)
* [15:37] Liny Odell: lol nice falcon
* [15:37] Oskar Linden: rolling is relative. just make your tires an animate dgif
* [15:38] ac14 Hutson: D:
* [15:38] Jessica Lyon: i lol'd
* [15:38] Laurent Bechir: A friend of mine is doing clothes and she asked if meshes would allow her to make dresses which would follow the movements of the avatar ?
* [15:38] Moundsa Mayo: ac14 Makes some VERY cool stuff!
* [15:38] Lares Carter: oskar, that means aditi inventory will be replaced with a copy from agni? any point of time for that?
* [15:38] Falcon Linden: Laurent: Yes. There's no cloth simulation, but rigged meshes are possible
* [15:38] Sigma Avro: omg Laurent, abuse of mesh import will have a lot of facets, haha
* [15:38] JB Hancroft: Lares - your inventory gets sync'd over if you change your password on Agni
* [15:38] Falcon Linden: Moundsa: cool it may be, but efficient I doubt!
* [15:38] Oskar Linden: Lares. Aditi inv is refreshed every time you change your passwrod
* [15:39] Ambroff Linden: Lares: no, we will not be clobbering your inventory on aditi. We're just going to be adding more capacity
* [15:39] Ambroff Linden: to support more users on aditi
* [15:39] Laurent Bechir: Sigma : do you mean that meshes on clothes would be too much ?
* [15:39] JB Hancroft: Aditi is the new Main Grid (pass it on)
* [15:39] Lares Carter: i know, i was refering to: "we are also in the process of upgrading the inv servers here on ADITI. we were fast running out of space."
* [15:39] Moundsa Mayo: Helps find good places to increase physics implementation efficiency B^)
* [15:39] Gooden Uggla: ao off
* [15:39] Sigma Avro: seems to me , will all the attachement points, you will see...
* [15:40] Tonya Souther: We've spent the past month fighting OpenJPEG decoding bugs in textures and sculpts, and we haven't found them all yet. How will meshes be sent to the viewer? Are we going to have to fight that problem all over again?
* [15:40] Aki Shichiroji: do inventory refreshes replace inventory or simply overwrite, leaving extraneous content made on the beta grid in place?
* [15:40] Ambroff Linden: Lares: that was just a simplification. To clarify, we are adding additional nodes to the inventory cluster for aditi.
* [15:40] Lares Carter: ah okay, thank Ambroff
* [15:40] Andrew Linden: BTW, I just verified and yes the regions currently running andrew-maint-server are: Oatmeal 9, 13, 14, and Sandbox Cordova.
* [15:40] Latif Khalifa: Tonya, no, meshes are assets (binary encoded LLSD run through gzip)
* [15:40] Ambroff Linden: Aki: they replace your inventory, all existing items are deleted.
* [15:40] Vir Linden: Meshes are another asset type as far as sending them to the viewer goes.
* [15:41] ac14 Hutson: oh! acutally i had aquestion about the mesh beta, i heard that vehicles will not be restericted to 32 mesh prims aslong as the physical representation does not count for more then 32 prims, is that true?
* [15:41] Tonya Souther: so no JPEG2000 decoding. Yay.
* [15:41] Aki Shichiroji: ah ok. Heh. maybe i should do that and clear up a bit of the mess i've been making. Thanks :)
* [15:41] Vir Linden: All those details about limits are still under active development
* [15:42] Falcon Linden: But yes, we hope to allow significantly more complex looking vehicles so long as their physics remains sufficiently simple
* [15:42] Latif Khalifa: just don't let falcon work on cost without adult supervision
* [15:42] Jessica Lyon: When can we expect to see the viewer code behind meshes?
* [15:42] Keller Teichmann: what about vertices/polys per 'prim'? Sorry if that's already been answered, betagrid didn't want to let me in.
* [15:42] Falcon Linden: Latif: That's it. Now I'm adding a "Latif" multiplier to the cost.
* [15:43] Vir Linden: source code as soon as we can swing it - if it isn't ready quite by Oct 13, please be patient
* [15:43] Jessica Lyon: kk ty
* [15:43] Latif Khalifa: Falcon, I know it is funny to you, but some of us want SL to succeed ;)
* [15:43] Falcon Linden: Here's the deal with prim costs
* [15:43] Drongle McMahon: Keller ... don't expect it to be that simple.
* [15:43] Vir Linden: it's just because we're prioritizing bug fixes
* [15:43] Oskar Linden: everything is a joke to falcon. except for physics. he is very very serious about physics
* [15:44] Drongle McMahon: And he HATES small triangles.
* [15:44] Falcon Linden: If you build your stuff correctly and efficiently, things will work fine and your costs will be very reasonable, quite possibly better than what you could have had with prims
* [15:44] JB Hancroft: Physics? pfffft. nobody really care about physics anymore. Not with mesh coming out ;)
* [15:44] ac14 Hutson: great!
* [15:44] Oskar Linden: speaking of physics and falcon. have you told them yet about what impact physical meshes have ona sim?
* [15:44] Latif Khalifa: primcount depending on object scale is the worst idea since viewer2 ui
* [15:44] Jennifur Vultee: yeah I was wondering if new limits on triangles/verts were introduced in the latest viewer...I tried reimporting the truck I made for Nyx and it says invalid vertices count
* [15:44] Jessica Lyon: o.o
* [15:44] Falcon Linden: One of the driving forces behind the new costs will be ensuring a correlation between efficiency and cost. That way if you have a high cost object, you can make it cheaper by making it more efficient
* [15:45] Falcon Linden: Oskar: good point
* [15:45] Vir Linden: truck thing sounds like bugs we're working on now
* [15:45] Tensai Hilra: so your saying if I replace the landscape of my sim with a mesh, with the scale that high, I pretty much fill it up without any 'objects?'
* [15:45] Jennifur Vultee: k thanks Vir
* [15:45] Drongle McMahon: Max size is not decided yet, is it Vir?
* [15:46] Falcon Linden: The important thing about costs is this: there will be tools to let you generate a physics representation for your mesh that is not itself a mesh. Use it. Choosing NOT to use it (and choosing to have a mesh for the physics representation) is an advanced feature and may be costly in prim resources if used incorrectly
* [15:46] Vir Linden: No, that's one of the things we'll be experimenting with during beta
* [15:46] Vir Linden: believe we'll be starting at 64m
* [15:46] Kelly Linden: cost is related to density - so scaling it *smaller* makes it cost more, scaling it larger makes it cost less.
* [15:46] JB Hancroft: k?
* [15:46] Falcon Linden: that's because meshes are VERY expensive to simulate and their cost scales inversely with volume.
* [15:46] Falcon Linden: exactly what Kelly said.
* [15:46] Rex Cronon: that is weird. how come the mesh the viewer generates is not a mesh?
* [15:47] Liny Odell: enough with the squeeking please?
* [15:47] Drongle McMahon: Kelly. That's only for physics. Runitai's new streaming cost make large meshes very expensive.
* [15:47] Aki Shichiroji: I think the landscaping market could benefit significantly from a higher size limit, to be honest.
* [15:47] Tensai Hilra: can I just give you 6 grand and let me worry about primlimits?
* [15:47] XLR8RRICK Hudson: Sounds like a possible griffing tool
* [15:48] Sigma Avro: so an imported mesh can see its cost changed ? that seems fair
* [15:48] Hope Dreier: almost everything is a potential griefing tool
* [15:48] Vir Linden: Yes, we're looking at helping people avoid being griefed
* [15:48] Latif Khalifa: still, cost based on scale is silly, it's a mistake to implement it that way. i really hope some aduly with business sense will review it
* [15:48] Tonya SoutherTonya: Souther facepaws.
* [15:48] Keller TeichmannKeller: Teichmann facepalms.
* [15:48] ac14 Hutson: well im sure they dont wnat pepole making 200,000 polygon dimond rigns
* [15:49] Keller Teichmann: That.
* [15:49] ac14 Hutson: typos*
* [15:49] Drongle McMahon: It would be alright if sculpties and standard prims were also cosyed that way.
* [15:49] Srilania SvobodaSrilania: Svoboda fangpalms
* [15:49] Gooden Uggla: so what now is a microprim (sculpt or regular) such as jewelry, can now bring a sim to halt if it's in mesh?
* [15:49] Falcon Linden: Latif: It's not a business problem, it's a technical one.
* [15:49] Keller Teichmann: Sculpties and standard prims aren't even remotely capable of the complexity you can get out of a mesh.
* [15:49] Rex Cronon: if i make a mesh that fits inside a 0.01 cube, do i pay 0.01$L:)
* [15:49] Latif Khalifa: it's not about number of vertices, it's about getting a mesh object and having 10 prims free, and then resizing it, and not having any prims free
* [15:49] Sigma Avro: have been told polygons number will be limited ?
* [15:50] Falcon Linden: Actually, if the mesh reaches 0.1x0.1x0.1, it becomes a box anyway and isn't cahrged like a mesh :)
* [15:50] Sigma Avro: for imported meshes
* [15:50] Falcon Linden: Latif: Then I guess you chose a bad size?
* [15:50] Drongle McMahon: Rex. You will pay Falcon 10^6 prims
* [15:50] ac14 Hutson: OH! Will imported meshes be set to a scale or when we import them do they become .5 .5 .5 box that we have to resize
* [15:50] JB Hancroft: what about the people who'd like to make micro items, with mesh?
* [15:50] Gooden Uggla: he's talking about server cycles when he says cost, not dollars
* [15:50] Vir Linden: when falcon has all the prims, the game is over.
* [15:50] Oskar Linden: heh
* [15:50] Moundsa Mayo: Just give Falcon one prim with copy perms.
* [15:51] Rex Cronon: prims? can i deliver them by truck:)
* [15:51] Vir Linden: Yeah, L$ cost is completely undetermined (free during beta)
* [15:51] Falcon Linden: Look, the take away here is NOT "Meshes are expensive and their cost scale in a really complicated stupid way.."
* [15:51] Vir Linden: and completely up to the business folks, which I'm not
* [15:51] Cathy Gray: specially with the advent of micro avatars, if meshes don't work at a micro level, it won't be that good for them
* [15:51] Falcon Linden: The take away is: "Don't use a mesh for physics unless you know what you're doing."
* [15:51] Sigma Avro: youp good, active work on beta
* [15:51] Oskar Linden: quote of the day: "Don't use a mesh for physics unless you know what you're doing."
* [15:51] Falcon Linden: Cathy: meshes on avs don't count against physics resources
* [15:51] Tensai Hilra: All the bickering about arbitray limits, prim counts, etc are pointless... lets let the beta occur and worry about the prims when they hit the fan
* [15:51] Falcon Linden: Oskar: good quote
* [15:51] Jessica Lyon: lol
* [15:51] Falcon Linden: :)
* [15:52] Rex Cronon: where is the mesh manual:)
* [15:52] Falcon Linden: Oskar: What brilliant man said that?
* [15:52] Oskar Linden: mr falcon
* [15:52] Cathy Gray: gotcha Falcon, ty
* [15:52] Falcon Linden: Rex: In the collective heads of Runitai, Jonathan, me...
* [15:52] Latif Khalifa: Tensei, point of beta projects is to avoid bad decisions among other things
* [15:52] Oskar Linden: I wish you all could sit in falcons office and watch his demo in person
* [15:52] Rex Cronon: ok. cool. now download it:)
* [15:52] Jessica Lyon: video go!
* [15:52] Oskar Linden: I keep telling him to film them and make a youtube channel
* [15:52] Tensai Hilra: so, prove them wrong when you can do so with a demo mesh
* [15:52] Jessica Lyon: Torley ftw!
* [15:52] Vir Linden: public wiki is the closest thing we have to a manual right now. Some folks have uploaded videos and linked them there.
* [15:53] Falcon Linden: Torley has helped me do that in the past. We have an internal video that we'll modify and release I think
* [15:53] Jessica Lyon: \o/
* [15:53] Falcon Linden: thing is, right now I'm too busy trying to keep stuff from crashing to write docs :)
* [15:53] Drongle McMahon: Vir, will you open the mesh blog when the open beta starts?
* [15:53] Rex Cronon: u demonstrate how to make a watermellon mesh;)
* [15:53] Oskar Linden: falcon has been busy
* [15:53] Gooden Uggla: yes please falcon
* [15:53] Oskar Linden: but he took an hour to come here
* [15:53] Sigma Avro: no docs, no client, hehe
* [15:54] TankMaster Finesmith: itll crash anyway, so why not work on the docs? :P
* [15:54] Lares Carter: Falcon, is there a estimated time of delivery for the objects with only part of the prims as physical representation feature? (a 100 prim car with 30 prims as physics shape)
* [15:54] Falcon Linden: yeah, it's part of mesh
* [15:54] Falcon Linden: you can select prims in a linkset and choose a physics type of Prim, None, or Convex
* [15:55] Falcon Linden: (root prims must be Prim or Convex)
* [15:55] Sigma Avro: wander wath temp onrez of meshes will do ?
* [15:55] ac14 Hutson: win
* [15:55] Falcon Linden: Temp on rez meshes will count against your land limits
* [15:55] Lares Carter: thats part of the 13th october release?
* [15:55] Oskar Linden: :-D
* [15:55] Aki Shichiroji: oooh
* [15:55] Aki Shichiroji: :D
* [15:55] Falcon Linden: Yeah, that's a good and important point
* [15:55] XLR8RRICK Hudson: When it imperative to be there use Phoenix 373
* [15:55] Tensai Hilra: Temps already count against my prim counters anyhow
* [15:55] Gooden Uggla: is there timeframe that you can estimate for when you'll be able to tell us the perameters of mesh (non monetary) ?
* [15:55] Liny Odell: falcon, is it safe to assume that none would be like phantom then?
* [15:56] Eddi Decosta: yeah temporary mesh import to test if its a good result before uploading in real cust ..
* [15:56] Falcon Linden: None is actually better than phantom. It isn't simulated in any way
* [15:56] Eddi Decosta: interesting 
* [15:56] Liny Odell: ah, nice
* [15:56] Vir Linden: we'll be refining the prim cost and monetary cost during beta - we really don't know the dates yet.
* [15:56] Keller Teichmann: I don't think temporary meshes would work with SL's servers, like textures do. :[
* [15:56] Gooden Uggla: thanks vir
* [15:56] Oskar Linden: alright guys. we have 4 minutes
* [15:56] TankMaster Finesmith: no temp mesh uploads? :P
* [15:56] Liny Odell: but that would make it so that llVolumeDetect(); wouldnt work on those prims then right?
* [15:56] Marigold Devin: Wow thats passed fast
* [15:56] Oskar Linden: JB posted this: Update on getting some regions of the grid set aside to not be rolled so often, please. - JB
* [15:57] JB Hancroft: :))
* [15:57] Falcon Linden: llVolumeDetect() will not work a prim that is "no physics"
* [15:57] Oskar Linden: we're working on some new ideas around that JB
* [15:57] Falcon Linden: i.e. shape "none"
* [15:57] Tensai Hilra: no temp mesh, but i heard there are plugins for local mesh workimg
* [15:57] Oskar Linden: full sim owners can request to be moved to the stable branch
* [15:57] ac14 Hutson: its part of a linkset anyway, so some part of it has to be physcial
* [15:57] JB Hancroft: glad to listen, help, suggest :)
* [15:57] Oskar Linden: but mainland regions can't
* [15:57] Eddi Decosta: Falcon, can you said me if i can put the mesh in physical?
* [15:57] Oskar Linden: we've tried to keep the impact as low as possible
* [15:57] XLR8RRICK Hudson: Its a great day in SL with no roll
* [15:57] Oskar Linden: but we really need large numbers of regions in these channels to get good date
* [15:57] Oskar Linden: data
* [15:57] Falcon Linden: Eddi: If you set a mesh physical, its physics representation will be replaced with a simpler, non-mesh one.
* [15:58] Oskar Linden: we tossed around some ideas this morning
* [15:58] Tonya Souther: Sorry, Oskar, but multiple sim rolls in a week is not exactly what I'd call "low impact".
* [15:58] Tensai Hilra: JB if you need me to do that, just let me know on which sims it should be applied
* [15:58] Oskar Linden: we'll see what comes of it
* [15:58] Eddi Decosta: oh!! ok Falcon 
* [15:58] Falcon Linden: Dynamic imported meshes are not supported
* [15:58] Aki Shichiroji: at what point will/may the mesh beta extend to additional regions on the beta grid?
* [15:58] Falcon Linden: no timeline yet
* [15:58] Oskar Linden: I understand tonya. but it is much better than bi weekly grid rollbacks
* [15:58] Latif Khalifa: there are plenty of mesh regions
* [15:58] Hope Dreier: That sounds like a win falcon a simple non mesh for the physics engine
* [15:58] Oskar Linden: no plans for that aki
* [15:58] JB Hancroft: Thanks, Tensai - not in Steelhead, though. Clients of mine that what stable sims with minimal restarts
* [15:59] Aki Shichiroji: k
* [15:59] Vir Linden: probably depends on load, whether we need more regions.
* [15:59] Tensai HilraTensai: Hilra nods
* [15:59] Falcon Linden: Hope: that's the...hope? (sorry)
* [15:59] Vir Linden: for now, we're going with what we have.
* [15:59] Oskar Linden: we don't have plans to allow personal regions to be on mesh
* [15:59] Tensai Hilra: (well send em over :) they can get lots too ;)
* [15:59] Eddi Decosta: and about the flexy prims setting i can apply on the mesh or not yet?
* [15:59] JB Hancroft: Thanks for remembering about that Oskar.
* [15:59] Liny Odell: tonya, i remember a while back when every Wednesday the grid was shut down for maintenance
* [15:59] Oskar Linden: we could go back to that :-D
* [15:59] Oskar Linden: take down all of SL every week
* [15:59] Jessica Lyon: >.<
* [15:59] Hope Dreier: You were saying the meshes converted to physics wuuld be simulated by simpeler non mesh objects
* [16:00] Eddi Decosta: Falcon? 
* [16:00] Ambroff Linden: yeah that would certainly make our lives easier :)
* [16:00] Oskar Linden: it would
* [16:00] Liny Odell: oskar, no!
* [16:00] Oskar Linden: we'd do it at noon on wednesday from the bar
* [16:00] Jessica Lyon: lol
* [16:00] TankMaster Finesmith: lol
* [16:00] Tonya Souther: Known impact, even high like that, would probably be better accepted than not knowing which regions were on which version and whether or not it would last the day.
* [16:00] Falcon Linden: Eddi: I doubt it but don't know (flexies with mesh)
* [16:00] TankMaster Finesmith: would help to logg off the griffer bts
* [16:00] Aki Shichiroji: I'm asking mainly because of the class system for regions... it's not entirely clear to me whether class 4s are now actually running something better, even though they are grandfathered.... so as such, i have to wonder how they might perform with mesh code if not.
* [16:00] Oskar Linden: trust me, getting up every week at 5am on tuesdays is getting old :-D
* [16:00] Sigma Avro: Edi asked: flexi meshes possible ?
* [16:00] TankMaster Finesmith: bots*
* [16:00] JB Hancroft: I actually agree with Tonya - known downtime we can work around :)
* [16:00] Falcon Linden: Mesh sims should perform better than older sims
* [16:00] Oskar Linden: we are officially without class Aki
* [16:00] Falcon Linden: For a number of reasons
* [16:00] Oskar Linden: take that as you will
* [16:01] Drongle McMahon: No flexi meshes (yet).
* [16:01] Gooden Uggla: as someone who lived thru the wednesday update shutdowns... hell no, not again!
* [16:01] Eddi Decosta: Falcon, i want to test the flexi result with mesh , but if you can add that in next future that thing should be very nice man 
* [16:01] Drongle McMahon: yet = forseeable future
* [16:01] Tensai Hilra: The floppy dong manufacturers will be disappointed
* [16:01] JB HancroftJB: Hancroft chuckles
* [16:02] Oskar Linden: well our time is up
* [16:02] Falcon Linden: Eddi: Never.
* [16:02] Falcon Linden: :)
* [16:02] Hope Dreier: The problem with the Wed bit was you giot a new Viewer each time :(
* [16:02] Falcon Linden: But I would like to add support for full cloth simulation someday
* [16:02] Oskar Linden: thanks to VIr and Falcon for making a guest appearance
* [16:02] XLR8RRICK Hudson: Thanks for your time , be well all.
* [16:02] Falcon Linden: Thanks for having us
* [16:02] Oskar Linden: Thanks to Andrew for the maint-server update
* [16:02] Gooden Uggla: thanks vir
* [16:02] Jessica Lyon: Thank you all for coming! looking forward to playing with mesh
* [16:02] Hope Dreier: Yes, this has been very informative
* [16:02] Eddi Decosta: Falcon why? 
* [16:02] Gooden Uggla: thanks falcon
* [16:02] Vir Linden: Hope we'll be seeing some of you next Wed.
* [16:02] Moundsa Mayo: Thanks for your time Oskar, Maestro, Simon, Falcon, Andrew, Ambroff, Vir and, and, ... ALL!