Mesh/Archive/2011-08-01

==Agenda==
# Why do mesh objects have a +0.5PE penalty and a +1PE script penalty per object per linkset compared to regular prims which have none? (York Jessop)
# Can we have both physics and streaming cost displayed somewhere in the edit window? It was useful to be able to tell which was larger without having to go into the developer menu. (Brookston Holiday)
# (Perhaps related)When edit linked is checked, the number of prims gets updated in the edit window but the PE of the entire object is still shown. Is it possible to show the PE contribution of the one prim that has been selected, again without going into developer menu? (Brookston Holiday)
# What is the hidden agenda (assuming there is one) behind the new dropdown on the uploader that asks what the uploaded model is for? [Drongle McMahon]
# SH-2044 has been set to fixed, but the automated build at http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/mesh-development/rev/237321/index.html doesn't seem to have the fix even though it's listed. It's likely a mistake on my part, but please confirm whether the fix is in or not in the install. (Raz Welles)
#I'm having problems getting the streaming cost formula to work. Is this wiki up-to-date? : http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mesh/Mesh_Streaming_Cost#LOD_Transition_Distances I read elsewhere that the LOD transition distances have different values now. Also, is "max_area=65536", "cost_scalar = 0.125" and is "radius = 0.5 * llSqrt(x*x + y*y + z*z)"? [Ashasekayi Ra]
#In the streaming cost formula, kbytes for each LOD are listed. Is there a way to approximate that value for ourselves offline since I assume this is a compressed value? [Ashasekayi Ra]
#You still can't have textures automatically load with a model exported from Blender 2.49. Is this a known issue? Or, does it need a jira? [Ashasekayi Ra]
#Adding a script to a linkset that has a PE count lower the the prim count results in rounding up to the prim count and voiding out any efficient mesh models that are below 1 PE in a linsket... why? My example was a 128 prim, 64 PE going up to 130 PE whit a "new script" added... [Moo Spyker]
#In the modernisation of SL, why has all effeort for new features seemed to be targeted at Mesh? I feel that the biggest immersion killer, and the area where SL is lagging behind other MMOs the most, right now is not having seamless sim crossings, and not being able to traverse the seas. [Davido Chrome]
#Please can you add to the Loginscreen from the Mesh Cleint Links to the mesh-wiki tips for handle the mesh upload. [bigjr Slade]
#When can we expect a viewer version that works with lion (macOS 10.7)? [Mikki Miles]
#Jira CTS-606 is marked as fixed, but it isn't. I made a comment, but i suspect nobody read it. So, on both my machines, MBP and a recent iMac I get a black screen when I try to display physic shapes, it would really be helpful to have this working [Mikki Miles]
#How do normal prims and meshes compare in rendering cost? Comparing, say, 1024 prim-based triangles and 1024 mesh-based triangles. [Stickman Ingmann]
#Are we there yet? Can you tell us about how mesh will be rolled out to the rest of the grid and when? [Vivienne Daguerre]
==Meeting Notes==
==Attendees List==
*Acheron Gloom (acheron.gloom)
*Asha (ashasekayi.ra)
*Bunnie Mills (bunnie.mills)
*Charlar Linden (charlar.linden)
*charlespayne Dana (charlespayne.dana)
*Dahlia Trimble (dahlia.trimble)
*Drongle McMahon (drongle.mcmahon)
*Monster LagGroup (eddi.decosta)
*Eleanora Newell (eleanora.newell)
*EzY McAlpine (ezy.mcalpine)
*Helena (helena.lycia)
*JR4201 Kruyschek (jr4201.kruyschek)
*Evil the Cat (kadah.coba)
*tehKellz (kelly.linden)
*Kylie Todriya (kylie.todriya)
*Latif Khalifa (latif.khalifa)
*Lee Ponzu (lee.ponzu)
*Maniac Choche (maniac.choche)
*Maxwell Graf (maxwell.graf)
*Mesh Release (mesh.release)
*Michelle Leckrone (michelle.leckrone)
*Mikki Miles (mikki.miles)
*Moo Spyker (moo.spyker)
*Motor Loon (motor.loon)
*Nal (nalates.urriah)
*Nyx Linden (nyx.linden)
*perrson Zsun (perrson.zsun)
*Racush (racush.cheeky)
*davep (runitai.linden)
*Rusalka Writer (rusalka.writer)
*Skygirl Kline (skygirl.kline)
*Stickman (stickman)
*Vivienne Daguerre (vivienne.daguerre)
*Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar)
==Transcript for Monday August 1, 2011==
[12:04]	Maniac Choche 	the walking tree is comming :))
[12:04]	Maniac Choche 	welcome :)
[12:04]	perrson Zsun 	:O
[12:04]	Rusalka Writer 	And he's brought us a prim.
[12:04]	Charlar Linden 	sacred?
[12:05]	Maniac Choche 	a bit :P
[12:05]	Rusalka Writer 	Scared.
[12:05]	Stickman 	Alpha means transparency. Transparent stuff and shine doesn't get along. Alpha wins, shine doesn't show up.
[12:05]	perrson Zsun 	i know that
[12:05]	Charlar Linden 	First item
[12:05]	Moo Spyker 	THE TREE HAS ARRIVED
[12:05]	Charlar Linden 	Why do mesh objects have a +0.5PE penalty and a +1PE script penalty per object per linkset compared to regular prims which have none? (York Jessop)
[12:05]	Stickman 	Even if the texture doesn't have any transparency visible, if it has an alpha channel -- like a 32-bit TGA -- then it will be considered as "having alpha."
[12:05]	charlespayne Dana 	let the lindens speak
[12:05]	Monster LagGroup (eddi.decosta)	hi Charlar :)
[12:05]	Charlar Linden 	hey all
[12:06]	perrson Zsun 	it just has a blank texture its just white
[12:06]	Stickman 	If it's TEXTURE_BLANK, that sounds like a bug. There was a Jira on attached items not showing transparency when certain graphic settings were set, but it would show up while on the ground. Make sure shine works period, then report a bug on Jira and add it to the agenda?
[12:06]	davep (runitai.linden) 	DON'T PEE ON ME!
[12:06]	Rusalka Writer 	This is a meeting, right?
[12:07]	Charlar Linden 	yep
[12:07]	Maniac Choche 	hhhaha
[12:07]	Rusalka Writer 	Oh, good.
[12:07]	Vivienne Daguerre 	rofl
[12:07]	Charlar Linden 	Nyx is working on the first item
[12:07]	Stickman 	Er, attached meshes not showing shine.
[12:07]	Nyx Linden 	so we charge extra "server cost" for objects that are dynamic - dynamic meaning either scripted or physical. This will only impact the server cost, so if you object is not bound by server cost then you won't see any impact of making your mesh dynamic
[12:07]	Charlar Linden 	Please no more animals up here
[12:07]	Charlar Linden 	:-)
[12:07]	Moo Spyker 	yeah everyone shut up so they can speak
[12:07]	Lee Ponzu 	Transparent items disappear when I turn on Shadows...
[12:07]	Lee Ponzu 	Not just attachments
[12:07]	Charlar Linden 	one thing at a time
[12:07]	davep (runitai.linden) 	please add your question to the agenda
[12:08]	Charlar Linden 	If you want answers, you need to keep focused on the agenda
[12:08]	perrson Zsun 	i think my computer would die if i turned on shadows :|
[12:08]	davep (runitai.linden) 	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group
[12:08]	Charlar Linden 	I know the scripting issue is important to many - did everyone see Nyx's comment?
[12:08]	Helena (helena.lycia) 	Where's the agenda?
[12:08]	Helena (helena.lycia) 	Ah
[12:08]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Grou
[12:09]	Stickman 	I did, good explanation. Thank you, Nyx.
[12:09]	charlespayne Dana 	aditi keeps crashing for me
[12:09]	Charlar Linden 	We're going to try and handle all the PE related questions at once, so I'm going to jump around a bit.
[12:10]	Charlar Linden 	#9 Adding a script to a linkset that has a PE count lower the the prim count results in rounding up to the prim count and voiding out any efficient mesh models that are below 1 PE in a linsket... why? My example was a 128 prim, 64 PE going up to 130 PE whit a "new script" added... [Moo Spyker]
[12:10]	Drongle McMahon 	Someone catch the leaves.
[12:10]	Nyx Linden 	related to the last answer - when you make an object scripted it becomes "dynnamic" which means we need to track more updates for the object
[12:10]	perrson Zsun 	can you make a script to animate the mesh when your not wearing it?
[12:10]	Nyx Linden 	so this increases its "server cost"
[12:11]	Latif Khalifa 	lol
[12:11]	Nyx Linden 	if the object isn't limited by server cost, then you wouldn't see a difference
[12:11]	Charlar Linden 	perrson, you're kind of invading my personal space
[12:11]	Moo Spyker 	so a script can be worth 65 prims in that example...? seems like a bug
[12:11]	Charlar Linden 	it's distracting
[12:11]	perrson Zsun 	sorry
[12:12]	Nyx Linden 	Moo: no, making the object "dynamic" increases its server cost. its not that your script costs the simulator 65 prims worth of processing
[12:12]	tehKellz (kelly.linden) 	The script is not worth 65 prims, but the fact that those prims are now dynamic means they are much more expensive to track.
[12:12]	Stickman 	You cannot change a mesh with a script. UUID swapping isn't going in, much to everyone's disappointment. The solution is to alpha swap, which can be done with any space faces, combined into the same mesh, or with multiple objects. Unless that's changed. I haven't been here in a while to harass them about it.
[12:12]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) 	so even if you somply add say a hover text script to an object then the cost will go up?
[12:12]	tehKellz (kelly.linden) 	Only if you are bound by simulation cost.
[12:13]	Moo Spyker 	so then why are mesh even able to be lower then 1 PE in a linkset if they are voided out with scripts...?
[12:13]	Moo Spyker 	in the max example a 256 prim 128 PE linkset would jump to 258 PE with a single script... thats just retarded excuse the language
[12:13]	Nyx Linden 	the linkset is limited by one of three costs: server cost, physics cost, and streaming/download cost
[12:13]	Latif Khalifa 	Kelly, what exactly does scripted bench that animates avatars when sat up requires in extra traciking that would justify charging more for it?
[12:13]	Nyx Linden 	whichever is highest is what we "charge" in prims
[12:14]	tehKellz (kelly.linden) 	It is indeed a bit of a rough metric.
[12:14]	Helena (helena.lycia) 	Doesn't this make it extremely difficult to create mesh vehicles and stay within physics limits?
[12:14]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) 	ti think they ar saying if your scipt makes any pat of the 'mesh' 'move' then because of the data flow to and from the servers that cost is more
[12:14]	Latif Khalifa 	to put it mildly
[12:14]	tehKellz (kelly.linden) 	All we are currently tracking is the dynamic nature, we aren't inspecting each script to know.
[12:15]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Every script doesn't make something move.
[12:15]	Moo Spyker 	why not an increase in PE for adding a script, not increase in prim number
[12:15]	Latif Khalifa 	very few do move stuff actually
[12:15]	Nyx Linden 	Helena - for making something physical you just need the physics weight to be under 32, not the entire prim equivalence
[12:15]	tehKellz (kelly.linden) 	Dynamic objects take more tracking. Latif you know this especially well - even idle scripts take time.
[12:15]	Moo Spyker 	say adding a script to a 128 prim, 64 PE goes up to 66 PE
[12:16]	Helena (helena.lycia) 	Well I can't make a mesh vehicle that comes in uder 32 PEs
[12:16]	Moo Spyker 	people are going to have a single script in a item thats that high of a prim count so that is just stupid to penalize that...
[12:16]	Latif Khalifa 	Kelly, scheduler deficiencies aside, increasing tier prices only for mesh object in this way does not make any sense to me
[12:16]	Maniac Choche 	Helena only physical shape needs to be under 32
[12:16]	Helena (helena.lycia) 	I wanted to make a modifcation to an existing vehicle - 25 conventional prims plus 1 mesh prim (2 PE) and the result was a 453 PE object
[12:17]	Latif Khalifa 	lol
[12:17]	Bunnie Mills 	welcome to mesh : P
[12:17]	Latif Khalifa 	yeah
[12:17]	perrson Zsun 	what is pe?
[12:17]	Nyx Linden 	again, it depends on what metric you're limited on. If you're limited on simulatoion cost, then making your object dynamic potentially significantly increases the cost to track it
[12:17]	Helena (helena.lycia) 	Prim Equivalence
[12:17]	perrson Zsun 	oh
[12:17]	tehKellz (kelly.linden) 	Keep in mind it will only effect objects that are bound to simulation cost, not anything with just a high PE from streaming or physics.
[12:17]	perrson Zsun 	im dumb
[12:17]	perrson Zsun 	:\
[12:17]	Motor Loon 	That really makes mesh useless for a lot of purposes it would have been great for.
[12:18]	Nyx Linden 	many objects will be bound by streaming or physics, and thus won't get a penalty from making objects dynamic
[12:18]	Helena (helena.lycia) 	Agreed Motor
[12:18]	Mesh Release 	can you not write a article for better understand ?
[12:18]	Moo Spyker 	doesnt make sense though how adding a script to the linkset can increase the PE count that greatly... why doesnt it just increse the PE count of the object its inside? This will for peopel not to link together items in a linkset... but yet its counteracts itself because you have to link stuff together to avoid the default 2PE on unlinked mesh....
[12:18]	Bunnie Mills 	doc updates were promised ...
[12:19]	Michelle Leckrone 	Is there any plans for the future to make faces move on mesh ****
[12:19]	Maniac Choche 	let's not forget this is an initial release , things will change eventualy. I think lindens don't want to repeat the "openspace sim" drama
[12:19]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) 	yes mesh would greatly improve vehicles but if it is going to 'cost' more then there will be virtualy no 'mesh' based vhicles
[12:19]	Motor Loon 	what was the "openspace sim" drama?
[12:19]	Rusalka Writer 	Agenda, agenda.
[12:19]	Charlar Linden 	OK, I think we're about done with that topic, I want to get back to our agenda
[12:19]	Moo Spyker 	It is also entirely possible with a low enough mesh polygon count to have a 128 prim, 10 PE count item, which would raise to 130 PE with asingle script added...? its bull crap
[12:19]	Maniac Choche 	i'll explain later :)
[12:20]	Moo Spyker 	so basiclly that will remain as it is?
[12:20]	tehKellz (kelly.linden) 	Yes. The minimum PE for a scripted object is going to be roughly 1 per prim.
[12:20]	Helena (helena.lycia) 	Ugg
[12:21]	Charlar Linden 	OK, I think we're about done with that topic, I want to get back to our agendaWe're always looking at how to improve, but right now that's it.
[12:21]	Moo Spyker 	no its per linkset of all prims
[12:21]	Drongle McMahon 	Moo - server weight menas 128 prims will always have PE > 64.
[12:21]	Helena (helena.lycia) 	So is the answer, we stick to using sculpts instead?
[12:22]	Moo Spyker 	yeah thats what im getting out of it Helena
[12:22]	Latif Khalifa 	sculpties ftw it seems
[12:22]	tehKellz (kelly.linden) 	Sculpts also have a minimum PE of 1 per prim.
[12:22]	Vivienne Daguerre 	for vehicles I think yes
[12:22]	Motor Loon 	I was planning to do just that Helena °͜°
[12:22]	Rusalka Writer 	Agenda agenda agenda.
[12:22]	Charlar Linden 	OK
[12:22]	Charlar Linden 	#2 Can we have both physics and streaming cost displayed somewhere in the edit window? It was useful to be able to tell which was larger without having to go into the developer menu. (Brookston Holiday)
[12:22]	Stickman 	He, Helena. "Give us at least what we have, or we'll just keep using what we have." That seems to be what it keeps coming back to.
[12:22]	Lee Ponzu 	Agenda...
[12:22]	Helena (helena.lycia) 	Yeah but sculpts don't suddenly jump to over 10 times their cost
[12:22]	Latif Khalifa 	Kelly, yes, but it doesn't increase when you add script to them
[12:22]	Motor Loon 	Stickman: thats assume they want us to use mesh °͜°
[12:23]	Helena (helena.lycia) 	It just seems crazy that adding a SIMPLE mesh prim to a 25 prim object results in a PE of 450
[12:23]	Nyx Linden 	Yep! we're planning on adding this in our second release, We have people working on it right now :)
[12:23]	Helena (helena.lycia) 	Maybe they only want us to use meshes for AVs
[12:23]	Charlar Linden 	#2 Can we have both physics and streaming cost displayed somewhere in the edit window? It was useful to be able to tell which was larger without having to go into the developer menu. (Brookston Holiday)#3(Perhaps related)When edit linked is checked, the number of prims gets updated in the edit window but the PE of the entire object is still shown. Is it possible to show the PE contribution of the one prim that has been selected, again without going into developer menu? (Brookston Holiday)
[12:23]	Charlar Linden 	hold on, screwed up there....
[12:23]	Charlar Linden 	#3 (Perhaps related)When edit linked is checked, the number of prims gets updated in the edit window but the PE of the entire object is still shown. Is it possible to show the PE contribution of the one prim that has been selected, again without going into developer menu? (Brookston Holiday)
[12:23]	Michelle Leckrone 	I've been told meshes better for frame rate is that true
[12:24]	Nyx Linden 	so we will be getting the physics and streaming costs added to the edit tools :)
[12:24]	perrson Zsun 	how many vertecies count as one prim?
[12:24]	Rusalka Writer 	Groovy.
[12:24]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	You have to add questions to the agenda Michelle
[12:24]	Maniac Choche 	and better debuging tools please " look in the log" is horrable excuse :P
[12:24]	Michelle Leckrone 	ok
[12:24]	Motor Loon 	"[12:24] perrson Zsun: how many vertecies count as one prim?" <--- now, thats what we need...
[12:24]	Stickman 	Nyx told me that mesh and prims cost about the same, triangle for triangle.
[12:25]	Latif Khalifa 	that's not true
[12:25]	Stickman 	"Cost" meaning "to display."
[12:25]	Nyx Linden 	as far as the prim equiv for a partial linkset, that's a known issue with how we report our costs
[12:25]	Drongle McMahon 	hahaha Stick noi if they are 64m
[12:25]	Charlar Linden 	Folks, please try to stay with the agenda item. It's helpful for everyone here, and everyone that reads the transcripts later.
[12:25]	Bunnie Mills 	yes please
[12:26]	Acheron Gloom 	Agreed.
[12:26]	Motor Loon 	ok, we'll complain and whine later °͜°
[12:26]	Charlar Linden 	thanks Motor
[12:26]	charlespayne Dana 	heat is making me stick to my chair lol
[12:26]	Nyx Linden 	please keep back chatter to a minimum, so that its clear what topics we're responding to :)
[12:27]	Charlar Linden 	on to the next one
[12:27]	Charlar Linden 	#4 What is the hidden agenda (assuming there is one) behind the new dropdown on the uploader that asks what the uploaded model is for? [Drongle McMahon]
[12:27]	Maniac Choche 	i was wondering the same
[12:27]	Charlar Linden 	no hidden agenda. You overestimate our deviousness.
[12:27]	Motor Loon 	statistics?
[12:28]	Rusalka Writer 	Giving the importer a head start on our crappy meshes?
[12:28]	Charlar Linden 	We want to start understanding what sorts of things get uploaded. The intent is more around that than anything.
[12:28]	Bunnie Mills 	well there is no motivation in setting it other than the default
[12:28]	Bunnie Mills 	and default is rather specific at the moment
[12:28]	Maniac Choche 	what about - avatar shape triggers auto checking the skin checkbox
[12:28]	Maniac Choche 	this will be helpful
[12:28]	Charlar Linden 	One idea is that we could help give you feedback on the stats of a proposed upload based on all other uplaods of the same type.
[12:29]	Drongle McMahon 	I need a "looking for bugs" choice
[12:29]	Bunnie Mills 	: P
[12:29]	Charlar Linden 	We could also help you categorize things later. These are all future ideas, don't know what we'll do yet. it's just a start.
[12:29]	Maniac Choche 	u will see many "avatar shapes" in ur stats .. people will use the default choice :P
[12:30]	Charlar Linden 	yep - I know
[12:30]	Maniac Choche 	still it's a nice idea
[12:30]	Charlar Linden 	Until we make it useful to you, I personally don't expect people to play along.
[12:30]	Maxwell Graf 	its also a good place to choose your rigged item heirarchy or placement when you develop that mesh deformer system later on down the road. *cough*
[12:30]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	lol
[12:30]	Stickman 	Yeah, I recommend having it be "choose one" and won't continue until they do. It's annoying, but helps. The other choice is to have default be "Undisclosed."
[12:30]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	You could have an incentive to change it and get -1 PE
[12:30]	Evil the Cat (kadah.coba) 	Didnt think default should be something like blank so you can at least get some accuracy on that option?
[12:30]	Charlar Linden 	onward...
[12:30]	Drongle McMahon 	You could make sub folders based on category
[12:31]	Maniac Choche 	yea the blank idea is nice
[12:31]	Maniac Choche 	"none"
[12:31]	Charlar Linden 	#5 SH-2044 has been set to fixed, but the automated build at http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/mesh-development/rev/237321/index.html doesn't seem to have the fix even though it's listed. It's likely a mistake on my part, but please confirm whether the fix is in or not in the install. (Raz Welles)
[12:31]	davep (runitai.linden) 	Number 5 is answered in the JIRA itself (SH-2044
[12:31]	davep (runitai.linden) 	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SH-2044?focusedCommentId=275265&page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel#comment-275265
[12:31]	perrson Zsun 	what is the link for?
[12:32]	Evil the Cat (kadah.coba) 	Evil the Cat hates useless stats numebrs due to bad input methods
[12:32]	Acheron Gloom 	First link is a mesh viewer download, second is a jira.
[12:32]	Maniac Choche 	i was able to fix mine with a little bit movement on the problemating vertex
[12:32]	Stickman 	Can I jump back to #9? I never did hear a good answer why one script makes PE jump from 64 to 180.
[12:32]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	no
[12:32]	Acheron Gloom 	no
[12:32]	Charlar Linden 	Stickman - no, sorry
[12:32]	Bunnie Mills 	sigh... old discussion
[12:33]	Charlar Linden 	#6 I'm having problems getting the streaming cost formula to work. Is this wiki up-to-date? : http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mesh/Mesh_Streaming_Cost#LOD_Transition_Distances I read elsewhere that the LOD transition distances have different values now. Also, is "max_area=65536", "cost_scalar = 0.125" and is "radius = 0.5 * llSqrt(x*x + y*y + z*z)"? [Ashasekayi Ra]
[12:33]	Stickman 	Link me to the old discussion?
[12:33]	davep (runitai.linden) 	The wiki is *now* up to date
[12:33]	davep (runitai.linden) 	it wasn't an hour ago
[12:33]	davep (runitai.linden) 	just updated it before the meeting
[12:33]	Maniac Choche 	yaaaaaay!
[12:33]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Ok, thanks ^^
[12:33]	Maniac Choche 	Thanks :)
[12:33]	davep (runitai.linden) 	sorry that took so long
[12:33]	Charlar Linden 	#7 In the streaming cost formula, kbytes for each LOD are listed. Is there a way to approximate that value for ourselves offline since I assume this is a compressed value? [Ashasekayi Ra]
[12:34]	Drongle McMahon 	Well dobe Ash, successful prod.
[12:34]	davep (runitai.linden) 	You can lift some code out of LLModel.cpp
[12:34]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	hehe
[12:34]	davep (runitai.linden) 	LLModel::writeModel has a "nowrite" option that will just generate the mesh header
[12:34]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Oi.... I assume that is in the source?
[12:34]	davep (runitai.linden) 	yup
[12:34]	davep (runitai.linden) 	let me get a link
[12:35]	Charlar Linden 	cool, moving on...
[12:35]	Charlar Linden 	davep will send out a link when he finds it
[12:35]	Charlar Linden 	#8 You still can't have textures automatically load with a model exported from Blender 2.49. Is this a known issue? Or, does it need a jira? [Ashasekayi Ra]
[12:36]	Charlar Linden 	it does need a jira, please
[12:36]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Alrighty
[12:36]	Charlar Linden 	can you include an example model with textures?
[12:36]	Nyx Linden 	please do file a jira, with an example dae and the texture files
[12:36]	Rusalka Writer 	That works for me.
[12:36]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	I can do that.
[12:36]	Rusalka Writer 	I'll double-check on the newest viewer.
[12:36]	Nyx Linden 	thanks!
[12:36]	davep (runitai.linden) 	link to writeModel source: https://bitbucket.org/lindenlab/mesh-development/src/52fe23bab817/indra/llprimitive/llmodel.cpp#cl-1353
[12:36]	Charlar Linden 	ok, next...
[12:36]	Maniac Choche 	thanks
[12:37]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Asha will make sure to check with newest viewer first.
[12:37]	Charlar Linden 	#10 In the modernisation of SL, why has all effeort for new features seemed to be targeted at Mesh? I feel that the biggest immersion killer, and the area where SL is lagging behind other MMOs the most, right now is not having seamless sim crossings, and not being able to traverse the seas. [Davido Chrome]
[12:37]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Thanks Dave
[12:37]	Charlar Linden 	This isn't really mesh related.
[12:37]	Lee Ponzu 	hear hear
[12:37]	Bunnie Mills 	: P
[12:37]	Stickman 	Yeah, it's not. :<
[12:37]	Lee Ponzu 	Maybe, but mesh makes sim crossings worse...
[12:37]	Stickman 	Good question, though. Server group?
[12:37]	Charlar Linden 	We consider all these issues - but one project ata time...
[12:37]	Evil the Cat (kadah.coba) 	Other teams have been working on that.
[12:38]	Bunnie Mills 	and there is a big JIRA on it too
[12:38]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Lots of improvements have been made on sim crossings and as said other teams are on that
[12:38]	Charlar Linden 	#11 Please can you add to the Loginscreen from the Mesh Cleint Links to the mesh-wiki tips for handle the mesh upload. [bigjr Slade]
[12:39]	Lee Ponzu 	Thats what browser bookmarks are for.
[12:39]	Michelle Leckrone 	hehe
[12:39]	Maniac Choche 	:))
[12:39]	Charlar Linden 	I think it's better to just keep your wiki links in your browser.
[12:39]	Acheron Gloom 	Yeah.
[12:39]	Maniac Choche 	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mesh
[12:40]	Charlar Linden 	and we're working to improve our wiki, as it relates to mesh
[12:40]	Maniac Choche 	i can say this one in my sleep
[12:40]	Maniac Choche 	:P
[12:40]	Michelle Leckrone 	I have to admit it gets a bit over the top of me with bookmarks
[12:40]	JR4201 Kruyschek 	have all the information together is good
[12:40]	Charlar Linden 	as we transition from beta to release
[12:40]	JR4201 Kruyschek 	i mean the essential one
[12:40]	Charlar Linden 	Some people have done very nice tutorials and the like that we're adding.
[12:40]	Charlar Linden 	#12 When can we expect a viewer version that works with lion (macOS 10.7)? [Mikki Miles]
[12:40]	Mesh Release 	but not all know it
[12:40]	Lee Ponzu 	I rarely use bookmarks any more...I just Google.
[12:41]	Acheron Gloom 	google > sl mesh. All done. ;p
[12:41]	Mesh Release 	the people ask in maingrid chat more times
[12:41]	davep (runitai.linden) 	http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/shining-fixes-merge/rev/237389/index.html
[12:41]	davep (runitai.linden) 	Leslie and I have been working on that
[12:41]	Mesh Release 	why not at the login a link ?
[12:41]	davep (runitai.linden) 	^^ that installer *should* almost work
[12:41]	Lee Ponzu 	we need one for Snow Leopard, too.
[12:41]	davep (runitai.linden) 	but it's not mesh enabled
[12:41]	Lee Ponzu 	Lee Ponzu winks
[12:42]	Mikki Miles 	hehe, but we're talking about mesh ;-)
[12:42]	davep (runitai.linden) 	the issues plaguing Lion are not mesh specific, so we're following the non-mesh bug fix pipeline
[12:42]	davep (runitai.linden) 	eventually those fixes will make their way to the release viewer and into the mesh viewer
[12:42]	davep (runitai.linden) 	timeline is to the tune of 3 weeks
[12:42]	Charlar Linden 	ok, next?
[12:43]	Charlar Linden 	#13 Jira CTS-606 is marked as fixed, but it isn't. I made a comment, but i suspect nobody read it. So, on both my machines, MBP and a recent iMac I get a black screen when I try to display physic shapes, it would really be helpful to have this working [Mikki Miles]
[12:43]	davep (runitai.linden) 	looks like it was fixed on windows but not mac or linux
[12:44]	davep (runitai.linden) 	we'll get on that soon
[12:44]	Mikki Miles 	I have to correct myself, I just tested it, and the screen turns white. I take this as a progress
[12:45]	davep (runitai.linden) 	I am heartened by your optimism
[12:45]	Maniac Choche 	:)))))
[12:45]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Asha snorts
[12:45]	Charlar Linden 	ok, moving on...
[12:46]	Charlar Linden 	#14 Jira CTS-606 is marked as fixed, but it isn't. I made a comment, but i suspect nobody read it. So, on both my machines, MBP and a recent iMac I get a black screen when I try to display physic shapes, it would really be helpful to have this working [Mikki Miles]
[12:46]	Charlar Linden 	or, not
[12:46]	Stickman 	Been thinking over 14. I bet Nyx's old statement still stands, and Latif was saying a 64 meter object has a high PE cost.
[12:46]	Charlar Linden 	#14 for real -- How do normal prims and meshes compare in rendering cost? Comparing, say, 1024 prim-based triangles and 1024 mesh-based triangles. [Stickman Ingmann]
[12:46]	Nyx Linden 	from my performance tests, a triangle is a triangle in terms of render cost whether it is a prim or a mesh :) That being said it depends heavily on what you do for your levels of detail and scale of the object
[12:46]	Nyx Linden 	but we're continuing to do more performance tests to get more granular data
[12:47]	Stickman 	A bigger object will have more triangles visible at a further distance because of LOD, and therefore has a higher PE cost. That's how that works?
[12:47]	Nyx Linden 	there's a slight penalty for rigged triangles, but non-rigged triangles it doesn't really matter whether its a mesh or a prim
[12:47]	Rusalka Writer 	So, ARC?
[12:48]	Nyx Linden 	we're re-doing the "ARC" algorithm to be more accuate, more on that later
[12:48]	Rusalka Writer 	Okay.
[12:48]	Stickman 	I'm looking forward to the new ARC. It sounds like it'll be fun.
[12:48]	Rusalka Writer 	http://boingboing.net/2011/07/31/111595.html
[12:48]	Nyx Linden 	trying to make it based on actual performance numbers :)
[12:48]	Rusalka Writer 	Oh, no.
[12:48]	Nyx Linden 	still hardware-independent though of course
[12:48]	Maniac Choche 	attachments will be abused for sure
[12:49]	Stickman 	Everything is always abused, all the time.
[12:49]	Maniac Choche 	why take time to make low poly if you can make it hipoly
[12:49]	Rusalka Writer 	I'm planning to. It's all I have left.
[12:49]	Stickman 	Can we hop back to 9 real quick? It sounded like a bug. The explanation was great, but didn't seem to address the actual issue.
[12:49]	Lee Ponzu 	By the time you figure out how to stop abuse, the future will already be here.
[12:49]	Charlar Linden 	ok, but let's finish up first
[12:49]	Vivienne Daguerre 	I snuck in another agenda item... through the crack under the door
[12:49]	Stickman 	Oh, there're more? Sorry.
[12:49]	Charlar Linden 	np
[12:49]	Charlar Linden 	#15 - Are we there yet? Can you tell us about how mesh will be rolled out to the rest of the grid and when? [Vivienne Daguerre]
[12:50]	Maxwell Graf 	finally i can have those high poly mesh genitals ive always wanted.
[12:50]	Vivienne Daguerre 	grins
[12:50]	Maniac Choche 	:))))))))))))
[12:50]	Maniac Choche 	classic
[12:50]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	lmao
[12:51]	Mesh Release 	vivi we are not finish.. we have no ponys :)
[12:51]	JR4201 Kruyschek 	i like that #15
[12:51]	Charlar Linden 	We're going to a Release Channel this week, and will be pretty aggresive with growing that over the next few weeks as long as we see stability.
[12:51]	Acheron Gloom 	:o
[12:51]	Charlar Linden 	We have somewhere over a 100 regions now in the mesh volutneer channel
[12:51]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	So, things are looking good now?
[12:51]	Vivienne Daguerre 	Woo-hoo-hoo!!
[12:51]	Vivienne Daguerre 	:D
[12:51]	Nyx Linden 	soon tiny robots will take over the grid.....errr I mean meshes!
[12:51]	EzY McAlpine 	shouts: yay
[12:51]	Maxwell Graf 	Weeeeeeeeee!
[12:51]	Rusalka Writer 	What could possibly go wrong?
[12:51]	Kylie Todriya 	fantastic !
[12:51]	Charlar Linden 	The viewer version is following suite
[12:51]	Maniac Choche 	yaaaaaay!
[12:51]	Michelle Leckrone 	yayyyyyyy!!!
[12:51]	JR4201 Kruyschek 	what do you mean by volunteer channel?
[12:51]	Charlar Linden 	or suit
[12:52]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Asha chuckles
[12:52]	Lee Ponzu 	So here's another fine mesh you've gotten us into, Stanley
[12:52]	Nyx Linden 	speaking of testing and stability, please try out this client and report any problems with it: http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/vir-project-1/rev/237157/index.html
[12:52]	Stickman 	How you guys feeling? Char? Nyx? Runitai?
[12:52]	Motor Loon 	so... "release channel" meaning the sims that signed up for testing?
[12:52]	JR4201 Kruyschek 	ty Nyx
[12:52]	Rusalka Writer 	So the timeline? The timeline on the upload cost increase?
[12:52]	Lee Ponzu 	it has crashed me four times just during this meeting...
[12:52]	Nyx Linden 	we want to get the mesh features merged into viewer-development soon, and that's our test merge
[12:52]	Charlar Linden 	JR/Motor - https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mesh/LiveVolunteers
[12:52]	Rusalka Writer 	It is crashy, and it doesn't give me the crash reporter.
[12:52]	Motor Loon 	or are we talking one of the major channels, like Tigre/Magnum etc
[12:52]	davep (runitai.linden) 	davep feels itchy.
[12:52]	Nyx Linden 	the more feedback we can get on that viewer the sooner we can merge
[12:53]	Charlar Linden 	I say "what could go wrong?" every day.
[12:53]	Motor Loon 	I know about the volunteer program, but I was just trying to understand what you meant by "release channels"
[12:53]	Nyx Linden 	I keep telling him to stop saying that....
[12:53]	JR4201 Kruyschek 	ty Charlar
[12:53]	Rusalka Writer 	It's a good mantra.
[12:53]	Rusalka Writer 	I use it in the woodshop all the time and I still have all my fingers.
[12:53]	Maxwell Graf 	ive been testing the heck out of it on my sim, and I have to say the server side has been flawless so far. I havent had a single issue on the sim with it.
[12:54]	Moo Spyker 	We really need to go over #9 again because I and others here did not get a clear, just and understood answer... wondering if you did not understand the question fully...
[12:54]	Charlar Linden 	hey, we have a few minutes left - and Stickman was nice.
[12:54]	Maniac Choche 	btw i'm unable to select rigged meshes worn on other people in order to make "inspect" etc , is this on purpose ?
[12:54]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	he was
[12:54]	Charlar Linden 	And Moo was trying to be nice :-)
[12:54]	Stickman 	Oh good. I try to be nice. I apologize if I come across rude. I don't have the social graces some are gifted with.
[12:54]	Lee Ponzu 	Do you have an answer to the WHY question?
[12:54]	Rusalka Writer 	Gimme my crash reporter back, please.
[12:54]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) 	I know Hippo Hollow is on the mesh channel ben playing in the sandox there with my mesh viewer
[12:54]	davep (runitai.linden) 	Maniac: yes, it's on purpose
[12:54]	Maniac Choche 	inspect is a powerful marketing tool
[12:54]	Maniac Choche 	darn :(
[12:54]	Vivienne Daguerre 	I have had a comment with my sims being on the mesh micro channel... I hold a tournament every week, and one of the contestants asked what I had done to the sim, that he had never seen a better ping or performance out of the sim.
[12:55]	Rusalka Writer 	Agreed about inspect.
[12:55]	davep (runitai.linden) 	will take that under advisement
[12:55]	Racush (racush.cheeky) 	Maniac just keep the edit window open and you can select them
[12:55]	Maniac Choche 	Thanks
[12:55]	Vivienne Daguerre 	thought I would pass that on... for it did not fit into a jira because it is not a problem
[12:55]	davep (runitai.linden) 	might be easy to enable that
[12:55]	Maniac Choche 	Racush mine , yes .. other people no
[12:55]	davep (runitai.linden) 	it's a performance thing -- doing a raycast on a rigged attachment is expensive
[12:55]	Maniac Choche 	ah i see
[12:55]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) 	right now there is a 12m snowflake in the middle of the area spining on three differetn axies
[12:56]	Latif Khalifa 	expensive enough even for a one off on a right click?
[12:56]	davep (runitai.linden) 	that's what I'll find out
[12:56]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) 	and the snow flake is a 6pe object
[12:57]	Nyx Linden 	so part of the problem around charging more for "dynamic" objects is that we don't know if adding a script to an object is going to cause it to move around constantly or just occasionally cause additional updates
[12:57]	Nyx Linden 	so the algorithm we have right now just checks "is this dynamic"
[12:57]	Latif Khalifa 	Nyx, sorry but that makes no sense
[12:57]	Moo Spyker 	Why have a penalty on the ENTIRE linkset though
[12:57]	Latif Khalifa 	90% of the scripts would be "animate avatar on sit"
[12:57]	Rusalka Writer 	Back to unlinked poseballs.
[12:57]	Maxwell Graf 	lolz
[12:58]	Latif Khalifa 	you erring on the side of more expensive is so incredibly short sighted, it's beyond belif
[12:58]	JR4201 Kruyschek 	eheheh!
[12:58]	Maniac Choche 	or "Sit there hud"
[12:58]	Maniac Choche 	:)))
[12:58]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) 	moo if your moving it then your changing the WHOLE linkset so it has to be updated more
[12:58]	Rusalka Writer 	Unlinked products make me itch.
[12:58]	Moo Spyker 	If your server has to do more work when a script is added, so be it, dont punish the prim counts on a sim.. thats the only things builders, customers, everyone on SL here cares about
[12:58]	Vivienne Daguerre 	it does not always double the PE, I don't understand it fully. This hearth is 13 parts, 15 PE, with scripts in it
[12:59]	Latif Khalifa 	changing 64 PE object to 180 PE object on one sit script in it (costing $7 USD per month in increased tier) is just insane
[12:59]	Rusalka Writer 	If you link this product, your land will essplode!
[12:59]	davep (runitai.linden) 	Moo: so here's the deal
[12:59]	Moo Spyker 	when the PE is lower then thenumber of objects
[12:59]	JR4201 Kruyschek 	Moo: what PE cost should have your biggest ship as mesh? lol
[12:59]	Stickman 	Moo reported to 130, 180 was a typo on my part.
[12:59]	Nyx Linden 	Vivienne - it doubles the server cost, which is not always the limiting factor.
[12:59]	davep (runitai.linden) 	a script on a linkset can create a lot of simulator load, and that load scales with the complexity of the linkset
[12:59]	Latif Khalifa 	there is no justification for it. unless you wanted to damage your company as much as possible
[12:59]	davep (runitai.linden) 	and we currently don't have a way to inspect the script to determine what kind of load it's going to generate
[12:59]	Moo Spyker 	but theres no complexity in the linksets I tried it in
[13:00]	JR4201 Kruyschek 	Moo: i meanlike that one you made with about 3,000 sculpted prims
[13:00]	Maxwell Graf 	Is it true that the whole plan for mesh is really to just get everyone onto V2? You can tell us, cmon. :D
[13:00]	Latif Khalifa 	davep, "can create a lot of load on the sim" can be applied to anythinng. using it as justification shows lack of honesty
[13:00]	Stickman 	I would also disagree with doubling the server cost when a script is inserted. That seems excessive for a specific case the script would need to fill.
[13:00]	Acheron Gloom 	So much typing, so hard to follow ;_;. Can we slow down D:?
[13:00]	Dahlia Trimble 	lol Max :)
[13:00]	Acheron Gloom 	If I wanted to read a novel I have Grapes of Wrath and Angela's Ashes next to me ;p
[13:00]	Maniac Choche 	Latif i don't think they are allowed to be too honest :)
[13:00]	Lee Ponzu 	Try using balloon chat 8-)
[13:01]	JR4201 Kruyschek 	ahahah!
[13:01]	Charlar Linden 	Acheron - you can mute people who aren't contributing...
[13:01]	Latif Khalifa 	$7 USD a month for a single scritp is definition of dishonesty
[13:01]	JR4201 Kruyschek 	lol
[13:01]	Moo Spyker 	We are still not getting a good answer for this... Basiclly were screwed for making effiecent mesh's
[13:01]	Vivienne Daguerre 	Latif, I don't think anyone here is being dishonest.
[13:01]	davep (runitai.linden) 	Moo: for lots of cases, you're right
[13:01]	davep (runitai.linden) 	the cost is higher than is realistic
[13:01]	Lee Ponzu 	Latif...no need to be intentionally insulting.
[13:01]	davep (runitai.linden) 	but we don't have a way to tell the difference right now
[13:01]	Lee Ponzu 	it just makes people unhappy.
[13:01]	Latif Khalifa 	Vivienne, how many times did you hear "reflect real sim cost"
[13:01]	Moo Spyker 	so figure something out?
[13:02]	Moo Spyker 	sorry but this is bullcrap how it is now. I cannot use mesh for what I create here with that
[13:02]	JR4201 Kruyschek 	i still hope that mesh import will boost up SL and not the contrary
[13:02]	Vivienne Daguerre 	Latif, I think they are doing their best to try to explain complex equations to us simply.
[13:02]	Stickman 	I believe it would be benefitial to figure something out. To find a way to allow it to be bypassed, or to clamp down later.
[13:02]	davep (runitai.linden) 	we'll definitely keep looking at it, but for the first release things will likely be what they are now
[13:02]	Maniac Choche 	the truth is that nobody knows what is the current situtation in LL , what they can afford and what limits LL deveps have from the management
[13:02]	Latif Khalifa 	I call $7 USD a month for running a single script and calling that reflecting real cost to be highy dishonest
[13:02]	Vivienne Daguerre 	I don't like it either, but they are not being dishonest.
[13:02]	Stickman 	Runitai, should we make a Jira about it, or is it already on the list?
[13:02]	Nyx Linden 	we're looking into options, would definitely like to see the specific situations where you feel we're overcharging you, having examples helps us tune our algorithms better
[13:02]	Latif Khalifa 	it is dishonest. it does not reflect the real cost at all
[13:02]	Dahlia Trimble 	$7?
[13:03]	Acheron Gloom 	Keep in mind everybody that costs cannot be raised once mesh is even remotely widespread, without the chance of breaikng content. Its best to start high and lower.
[13:03]	Rusalka Writer 	Rezzing one normal unscripted prim on an full parcel will tip your tier.
[13:03]	Motor Loon 	I think personally think the whole mesh setup is a bit like... a sheriff putting the whole town in prison, to be sure he gets the wanted guy....
[13:03]	Michelle Leckrone 	I think it's going to be a wonderful thing I just hope people can get their differences sorted out
[13:03]	Moo Spyker 	So you do see the problem then?
[13:03]	davep (runitai.linden) 	yes, the problem is clear
[13:03]	Latif Khalifa 	Dahlia, 100 extra prims when adding script to some mesh linksets
[13:03]	davep (runitai.linden) 	the solution is less clear
[13:03]	Latif Khalifa 	that's 512 sqm tier right there for 1 script
[13:03]	Dahlia Trimble 	a script? hmm guess I havent been keeping up lately
[13:03]	Moo Spyker 	as long as a solution is being worked out
[13:03]	Maniac Choche 	bots with worn houses and furniture + scripts :)
[13:03]	Nyx Linden 	its rather difficult to come up with an algorithm that gets the "right" cost for every specific situation
[13:04]	Vivienne Daguerre 	Latif, if you go over your prim limit things are returned to you. You are not charged extra tier.
[13:04]	Maniac Choche 	that is my future plans :P
[13:04]	Nyx Linden 	but we're doing what we can :)
[13:04]	Latif Khalifa 	Vivieenne, I know that
[13:04]	Acheron Gloom 	Nyx, could there be other possible ways to do it?
[13:04]	Rusalka Writer 	It's one of those server costs we'd like LL to eat rather than us. Like attached prims.
[13:04]	Latif Khalifa 	but if i wanted that one extra script on my land i would need to tier up
[13:04]	Moo Spyker 	the way I see it, is change that equation to current PE, not number of prims in the linkset
[13:04]	Helena (helena.lycia) 	Maybe you need to come up with a simpler algorythm
[13:05]	Maniac Choche 	Rusalka attached prims are ici bici tiny % compared to rezzed ones :)
[13:05]	Dahlia Trimble 	I thought scripts have always pretty much been unlimited
[13:05]	Rusalka Writer 	That's my point.
[13:05]	Monster LagGroup (eddi.decosta)	i need to know the prims limit stay at 64 metter ?? but the link range set is unchanged no?
[13:05]	Moo Spyker 	the sever cost shouldent be that great for added scripts though. something sounds like it needs to be fixed with how the server handles that
[13:05]	Vivienne Daguerre 	Only if it took you beyond the prim limits for the parcel.
[13:05]	Dahlia Trimble 	until the sim dies
[13:05]	Latif Khalifa 	Dahlia, adding script to a linkset with mesh in it can double its prim count now
[13:05]	davep (runitai.linden) 	Moo: apparently the sim load actually has to do with the number of distinct objects
[13:05]	Nyx Linden 	Moo - its not the cost of the script exactly, its just whether the object is considered to be dynamically updating
[13:05]	davep (runitai.linden) 	there's a lot of overhead from moving 128 distinct objects around, regardless of geometry
[13:05]	Latif Khalifa 	even if it's posescript for a chair
[13:06]	Acheron Gloom 	So.. the main issue, Lindens, is if the script were to send object updates right? Is it any object update or just position/rotation update that the server has to dela with, too?
[13:06]	Moo Spyker 	yeah but there needs to be way more depth then "if the linkset has a script"
[13:06]	Helena (helena.lycia) 	How is dynamically updating determined?
[13:06]	Acheron Gloom 	It can't be, Helena. Thats the issue.
[13:06]	davep (runitai.linden) 	if it has a script, it's dynamically updating
[13:06]	Moo Spyker 	were not talking about moving 128 objects around
[13:06]	Dahlia Trimble 	is moving considered dynamically updating?
[13:06]	Stickman 	If it has a script, it could potentially be dynamically updating, or it IS dynamically updating?
[13:06]	davep (runitai.linden) 	Moo: for your case, you're correct, but we don't have a way to determine if a script is going to move objects around
[13:06]	Maniac Choche 	maybe restrict some functions . If present = penalty
[13:07]	davep (runitai.linden) 	script inspection is a *big* project
[13:07]	Maniac Choche 	LSL functions
[13:07]	Acheron Gloom 	What about increased delay somehow? When the function actualyl runs, would that be hard?
[13:07]	Moo Spyker 	even if it is moving them, why should the PE count go up?
[13:07]	Nyx Linden 	not to mention it gets even more confusing if adding certain scripts increases costs a lot but other scripts only add to it a little
[13:07]	Acheron Gloom 	It would not break existing content since there is no non-beta existing content right now.
[13:07]	Rusalka Writer 	So we have to place warnings on any mesh products that the buyer should not script them. Nice.
[13:07]	davep (runitai.linden) 	Moo: because it creates load on the simulator
[13:07]	Motor Loon 	the solution does seem very simple ... dont charge extra for a scripts object...
[13:07]	Nyx Linden 	Moo - yes, because if its moving them, the server needs to simulate those movements and send out updates to everyone who can see the object
[13:08]	Acheron Gloom 	Yes, Motor, but then you have the potential for very laggy objects.
[13:08]	Dahlia Trimble 	can prim objects still move?
[13:08]	Helena (helena.lycia) 	But moving conventional prims doesn't cause all this hassle
[13:08]	Motor Loon 	Runitai: problem is a primobject dont suddenly "cost" extra because you script it... so why the heck should a mesh
[13:08]	Moo Spyker 	why woudl that effect anything? my items I currently have can move 3000 prims lagg free with effiecent scripting
[13:08]	Moo Spyker 	on a full sim its unnoticeable
[13:08]	Vivienne Daguerre 	I think part of the discontent is not over efforts to control and limit scripts, but to load it on the back of mesh and not apply it evenly. I think if you want to find a way to control and limit scripts, that should be done as a separate project and be applied to all objects of any kind. I think the biggest script numbers are worn on avatars.
[13:08]	Rusalka Writer 	If they could pass the cost for scripted prims and sculpties on to us now, they would.
[13:09]	Nyx Linden 	it affects our server load, which is what the server weight metric is supposed to measure
[13:09]	Moo Spyker 	I dont understand what your trying to do with all these limitations. mesh seems 100% targetted at AV's only
[13:09]	Rusalka Writer 	We're getting that for free.
[13:09]	Maniac Choche 	Moo it's initial limits , not final
[13:09]	Moo Spyker 	yeah not to meniotn people pay for your servers....
[13:09]	Acheron Gloom 	Mesh is definitely not targeted at AVs only. Assuming so is bad.
[13:09]	Maniac Choche 	people like to abuse , that is all about
[13:09]	Dahlia Trimble 	so let it affect the load, People will buy more sims to keep the load down and you make more $
[13:09]	Maniac Choche 	to see how much it will be abused
[13:09]	Moo Spyker 	I pay 125$ a month for my homestead and im limited this much?
[13:09]	Vivienne Daguerre 	By all means address the script issue. Make it its own project. Apply it to all objects.
[13:09]	Nyx Linden 	we're trying to be more accurate in representing where our costs and load comes from
[13:09]	davep (runitai.linden) 	Motor: if we could charge more for scripts on legacy objects, we probably would, but that would break content
[13:10]	Rusalka Writer 	The truth is we're willing to deal with performance issues if SL is cool. Eliminate scripts and it will work great, but nobody will be here.
[13:10]	Motor Loon 	I'll have to state right out that I've really stopped testing mesh, even dropped all plans I had for mesh - because of these rules on primcount... to me they dont make any sense in a world of prims where we usually arent under such restrictions.
[13:10]	davep (runitai.linden) 	it's just not realistic to charge nothing for a script
[13:10]	Vivienne Daguerre 	Perhaps put a script limit on sims in addition to prim limits.
[13:10]	Motor Loon 	So... instead you break new content
[13:10]	davep (runitai.linden) 	to make Second Life scalable in the future, we have to charge *something*
[13:10]	Maniac Choche 	the secret goal is to make SL to work on web :) so you can "play" it in the office :)
[13:10]	Maniac Choche 	like facebook
[13:10]	charlespayne Dana 	cant you make scripts run client side only so when someone gets close thay dont see it till the script downloaded to there client
[13:10]	Helena (helena.lycia) 	More accurate but it seems an uneven playingfield when there is a one rule for regular prims and sculpts and a different rule for meshes
[13:11]	Vivienne Daguerre 	if an avatar tries to cross into one wearing too many scripts, they would get a failed teleport and message, "Your script usage exceeds the limits of this region."
[13:11]	Charlar Linden 	Folks - we're way over time...
[13:11]	Monster LagGroup (eddi.decosta)	Runitai, can you said me if the prims link range could be changed? in next servers release?
[13:11]	Motor Loon 	Its a bad decisision LL... but its yours to make
[13:11]	Evil the Cat (kadah.coba) 	Well, I see this has broken down to unproductiveness. Back to work for me.
[13:11]	Stickman 	We are. Thank you for revisiting this question.
[13:11]	Maniac Choche 	cya Charlar :)
[13:11]	Moo Spyker 	Well I just hope something is done about this. Because myself and many others mesh becomes totally unseable because of this script thing...
[13:11]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Thx for the extra time...
[13:11]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) 	have fun kadah
[13:11]	Vivienne Daguerre 	yes, we appreciate it
[13:11]	Maniac Choche 	DDoS Facebook and Google+ and
[13:11]	Stickman 	I see the issue. I'm not happy with the solution. I understand why you're choosing what you did, and I believe it's a mistake. But you, or those above you, have decided this won't be changed, it sounds like.
[13:12]	Maniac Choche 	and Pe will go down :)
[13:12]	Eleanora Newell 	we appreciate your staying to answer questions
[13:12]	Maniac Choche 	trust me :P
[13:12]	Vivienne Daguerre 	and we are almost there!!! Yay!! Way to go!
[13:12]	Rusalka Writer 	Good meeting, all things considered.
[13:12]	Acheron Gloom 	Mesh is perfectly useful in plenty of circumstances, and in the future the current measurmenet allows them to lower the PE.
[13:12]	davep (runitai.linden) 	wow, we're over time
[13:12]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) 	davep an im please for a min
[13:12]	Stickman 	Very over time. :p
[13:12]	Rusalka Writer 	Appreciated.
[13:12]	JR4201 Kruyschek 	k, this was one interesting meeting, thanks
[13:12]	Acheron Gloom 	Its better to overmeasure and cut down than to undermeasure and be unable to fill up the gaps...
[13:12]	JR4201 Kruyschek 	let`s hope this things get fixed in the future
[13:12]	Skygirl Kline 	you need lunch
[13:12]	Charlar Linden 	All I can say is that we're focused on the costs.
[13:12]	Vivienne Daguerre 	I don't understand the script calculations.
[13:12]	Rusalka Writer 	We noticed.
[13:13]	Maniac Choche 	$-)
[13:13]	charlespayne Dana 	could make sim prim limits higher
[13:13]	Charlar Linden 	bye all!
[13:13]	Motor Loon 	We know Charlar... thats the problem °͜°
[13:13]	Acheron Gloom 	Bye, Charlar.
[13:13]	Skygirl Kline 	byes
[13:13]	Eleanora Newell 	bye, everyone
[13:13]	Maniac Choche 	bye bye
[13:13]	Stickman 	Thanks, bye!
[13:13]	JR4201 Kruyschek 	bye Charlar
[13:13]	Charlar Linden 	motor - ouch!
[13:13]	Eleanora Newell 	agni next week?
[13:13]	Nyx Linden 	thanks for all the feedback all, have a great week!
[13:13]	Kylie Todriya 	thanks for hosting the meeting
[13:13]	Vivienne Daguerre 	this hearth has a particle script in it for the stew steam and for smoke, animated textures moving across the flames, and an animation cript
[13:13]	Vivienne Daguerre 	script
[13:13]	Maniac Choche 	uspeh!
[13:13]	davep (runitai.linden) 	ok, I really gotta run go fix bugs
[13:13]	JR4201 Kruyschek 	bye Nyx
[13:13]	Vivienne Daguerre 	but 13 parts, and only 15 PE
[13:13]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Thanks for the meeting Lindens
[13:13]	Vivienne Daguerre 	that is not double.
[13:13]	Rusalka Writer 	Aloha!
[13:13]	JR4201 Kruyschek 	bye Davep
[13:13]	Vivienne Daguerre 	take care
[13:13]	davep (runitai.linden) 	thanks for the discussion, folks
[13:13]	Maxwell Graf 	...HOLA!!...
[13:13]	Eleanora Newell 	bye all
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