Doc Team/2010-02-03

== Transcript ==
[13:00]	:	Hello Jeremy Linden
[13:00]	 	has pinged you.
[13:00]	:	Hi Nathan. How are you?
[13:01]	:	Fine, so far....
[13:01]	:	Expecting bad news?
[13:01]	:	Nah, everything is hunky dorey. Knock wood.
[13:01]	:	That's good to hear!
[13:01]	:	㋡
[13:02]	:	Wonder why there's not more ppl here right now...
[13:02]	:	Well, we didn't hold an office hour last week because all the Lindens were traveling for a big real life event. Maybe people got discouraged?
[13:03]	:	There were ppl here, tho... this time last Wedesday....
[13:03]	:	And ONE of the Lindens was here...
[13:03]	:	Oh, that's right! Torley would have been here.
[13:03]	:	Ah, more ppl are popping in
[13:03]	:	sorry I'm late.... unless I'm not.
[13:03]	:	sorry i'm late. i guess you were all witing for me. :)
[13:04]	:	so much fun.... I can re-use all my stale jokes from CG's meetings on a new crowd.
[13:04]	:	Nope, no worries, Aargle. I think this is going to be a pretty low-key office hour. It's just me today :-)
[13:04]	:	Where's Torley? oO
[13:04]	:	in that case, can you send me a bear?
[13:04]	:	Torley and Kate are training up on some new blog software, and Jon's busy as usual. We're an active bunch.
[13:05]	:	busy bees
[13:05]	:	is this to do with the upcomming forum upgrade?
[13:05]	:	thanks
[13:05]	:	they're going to replace the forum software again? oO
[13:05]	:	*cough* I can neither confirm nor deny--
[13:05]	:	LOL
[13:05]	:	yea, it will use the same software as the blogs, or software by the same company
[13:06]	:	Nathan Adored cackles cattily.
[13:06]	:	I try to avoid the forums, oddly enough.
[13:06]	:	I get sucked in and just lose track of time.
[13:06]	:	heh
[13:06]	:	yea, i don't look at them much myself, but in the old days - that is where everyone lived practically
[13:06]	:	Yeah, forums can get as adictive as Second Life. :D
[13:06]	:	Well, they're a great place to stay active in the community while you can't be logged inworld.
[13:07]	:	Aargle Zymurgy blinks
[13:07]	:	hi
[13:07]	:	COU Core, neat nick! :D
[13:07]	:	Avatars United seems to be the place to live off-world now
[13:07]	:	er.. CPU Core, that is
[13:07]	:	personally, if I can be online for forums, I can be in-world
[13:08]	:	Yes! How is everyone liking Avatars United? I set up my account on Monday :-)
[13:08]	:	:)
[13:08]	:	I'm just recalling my days before Linden, when I'd want to do something with SL while I was at work.
[13:08]	:	um.....
[13:08]	:	It needs to expose API's so i can update my status/blog entries
[13:08]	:	dang, I'm sounding like a slacker
[13:08]	:	Niky Zenovka waves hello
[13:08]	:	but I haven't signed up for that, either
[13:08]	:	Arawn Spitteler's on Facebook as Aaron Freeman, a rather fat fellow in the church garden: Sion Chickens certainly certify the desire to farm, in world, and other products should likely cause less server lag.
[13:08]	:	or a Linden home
[13:09]	:	Yeah, I got an account there too. MariAnne McCan started a group for kid-avs there
[13:09]	:	They need to change that feedback link at the top to redirect people to JIRA
[13:09]	:	i would have reported a few problems, but i don't want to create yet another account somewhere else
[13:10]	:	Hm. That's good feedback. Unfortunately, I'm not heavily involved in the Avatars United work; mostly I'm interested to hear what you guys think of it as a communication tool and community-builder :-)
[13:10]	:	Nathan Adored smiles.
[13:10]	:	i am against it
[13:11]	:	dont like social websites
[13:11]	:	why?
[13:11]	:	ah
[13:11]	:	and also i dont like the thought of taking things outside of the second life environment
[13:11]	:	if you want to build communities you find ways to do them in a 3d world
[13:11]	:	I have a list of people having 60 birthdays when i log in. they need to show 4, and then have a link to view more.
[13:12]	:	Is there a way for the Avatars United to keep track of our rezdates like it does our birthdates?
[13:12]	:	Neither Kate nor Jon?
[13:12]	:	@Nathan - there is an app for that
[13:12]	:	What's the difference?
[13:12]	:	SL Blips
[13:12]	:	http://www.avatarsunited.com/apps/slblips
[13:12]	:	I'm not sure, Nathan. I know they're hard at work adding SL-specific features, but I'm not really involved with the project.
[13:13]	:	Sorry Arawn, it's just me today. Kate and Torley are busy with blog software training :-)
[13:13]	:	Oh, we seem to have blog pages, but I can't seem to post
[13:13]	:	Do I need that class?
[13:14]	:	Arawn Spitteler wonders if Jeremy gets out of that class, because he wrote the book
[13:14]	 	has pinged you.
[13:14]	:	Heh. I'm pretty sure they're working on more administrative training. And sadly, I did not write the book :-)
[13:16]	:	ty for the link to SL Blips.....
[13:17]	:	Has anyone got any news or feedback on our wiki or other help systems this week?
[13:17]	:	no problem. seems many people are using it just to prove they are who they say they are.
[13:17]	:	An interesting challenge when you're dealing with virtual personalities :-)
[13:18]	:	feedback on the wiki? what do you mean?
[13:18]	:	i've been able to edit it as normal.
[13:19]	:	Jeremy, I've got a question for you.... I hope it applies to the context of these meetings....
[13:19]	 	has pinged you.
[13:19]	:	My team is in a state of transition, but we're largely responsible for the articles in the Linden Lab Official namespace, as well as most of the articles in teh Knowledge Base category.
[13:19]	:	Go for it, Aargle.
[13:20]	:	If you don't know the proper place, for your question, that's a documentation issue
[13:20]	:	references to the IP addresses in the old knowledge base are broken. mainly pages that talk about firewall issues and voice servers used to link to them.
[13:20]	:	I remember reading some time ago about having new people to SL landing in sims due to out-world links.
[13:20]	:	that is, if I'm promoting things in my own sim, but not within the usual SL context....
[13:21]	:	that the new arrivals, once accounts created, would continue on to me where I had invited them.
[13:21]	:	Yes, I believe SLurls work in that manner.
[13:21]	:	that was was my understand of the future... but this was ages ago.
[13:21]	:	that's if they sign up through slurl
[13:21]	:	so, if I gave a SLURL....
[13:22]	:	ah, ok.... I'll have to try that with a machine that doesn't already handle slurls.
[13:22]	:	I think Refer a Friend is in question?
[13:22]	:	though... gah.... every computer in the house has SL on it.
[13:22]	:	the UU parameter doesn't work with slurls to get bonuses
[13:22]	:	Aargle, here's our wiki article on SLurls: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Slurl
[13:22]	:	I believe it describes the behavior you're after.
[13:23]	:	sweet! thanks jeremy
[13:23]	 	has pinged you.
[13:23]	:	I think it's been cancelled, but I don't know if there's historical documentation to say it's something that ever existed
[13:23]	:	Ever try to find something, that nobody remembers?
[13:23]	:	㋡
[13:23]	:	ok.... I have something prototyped that I've only seen done in flash before.
[13:24]	:	@Arawn - i can't remember ...
[13:24]	:	and thousands of the apps have been done in flash, but I think I'm the first in SL to try something equivalent.
[13:24]	:	Dedric, which UU parameter are you referring to?
[13:24]	:	and I've got the ok from one of the bigger forums to direct people to SL.
[13:25]	:	It's annoying, when nobody remembers who it was, or where has gone, the person you owe 50,000 Lira to
[13:25]	:	sorry, just 1 "u" - http://secondlife.com/ss/?u=9b235e2d4186950d6591bc4d2412ede5
[13:25]	:	the referral bonus
[13:25]	:	it doesn't work with slurls
[13:25]	:	I think it's been cancelled
[13:25]	:	What's Lira?
[13:25]	:	JIRA?
[13:25]	:	Italian currency, if I remember?
[13:26]	:	Strangely, someone I never heard of, before, joined on my referal just before it wsa cancelled
[13:26]	:	heh
[13:26]	:	Italian, like any currency, tends to be worth less than it used to be
[13:26]	:	the "u" parameter is still included in snapshot emails though
[13:27]	:	and if you email a snapshot, the dialog says "If your recipient joins SL, you'll get a referral bonus."
[13:27]	:	That should be straightened out
[13:27]	:	Nathan Adored smiles.
[13:27]	:	Eww. That sounds like a... WEB (I think) JIRA waiting to be filed.
[13:27]	:	yea - it should. the email has 2 links. the logo is the referral bonus, and then there is the slurl (with no bonus)
[13:27]	:	Ain't technology wunnerful? :D
[13:28]	:	It is! It's the updating part that's hard.
[13:28]	:	I expect WEB-814 is still an issue
[13:28]	:	yea. it's a bit misleading to tell us we can still get bunuses, and then it's hard for the referrer to click the rite link.
[13:28]	:	There are so many little parts to update every time we make a change. It's lucky we have willing Residents to point out when we miss a spot :-)
[13:29]	:	What Linden Labs wants to do, can be done when someone wants to get around to it but, what Linden Labs needs to get done, might be worked on, when someone wants to get around to it
[13:29]	:	:D
[13:30]	:	i remember that the developers used to volunteer on what they wanted to work on, so the tough stuff never got fixed.
[13:30]	:	long ago
[13:31]	:	Oh, that's an old policy, and there's this enourmous backlog, of what they still want to work on
[13:31]	:	"Choose your own work" basically meant "choose from the stuff that needs to get done" by the time I came around. I'm not sure it was ever entirely freeform.
[13:31]	:	SVC-93 is still regarded as too difficult to address
[13:31]	:	Jeremy, thanks for hosting, but I think I need to get back to some scripts. Everyone have a great day.
[13:31]	 	has pinged you.
[13:32]	:	Thanks for coming!
[13:32]	:	and thanks for that info about the SLURL
[13:32]	:	Someone still needs reserve a couple integers for the correct behaviour, and then someone has to program the correct behaviour.
[13:32]	:	No problem! By the way, the wiki incorporates Google search now, so it should be a lot easier to find articles you're looking for.
[13:32]	:	i've had problems trying to figure out rotation with child prims before like that.
[13:32]	:	how about putting google search on the blog as well?
[13:33]	:	You have to devide by root rotation twice, because someone multiplied, in stead of deviding, and any hacks to get about became supported
[13:33]	:	again
[13:34]	:	argh, rotation confuses me the most
[13:34]	:	Yeah, we should jira, that we don't lose our logs, when that happens
[13:34]	:	Interesting suggestion about Google on the blogs. I don't have much influence over them, but I could suggest it to Blue :-)
[13:34]	:	Rotations involve linear algebra, and should be straightened out, to prevent this idiocy being perpetuated by future generations
[13:34]	:	I gather SL 2.0 viewer is supposed to be a lot more crashproof....
[13:34]	:	Jeremy Linden never learned how to interpret Quaternions.
[13:34]	:	knock wood
[13:35]	:	I can neither confirm nor deny--
[13:35]	:	i think most of us understand degrees better than quaternions.
[13:35]	:	The sins of half each angle, and the resulting cosin
[13:35]	:	System doesn't use degrees, either, but Radians
[13:36]	:	llRot2Euler FTW, if you ask me. I'm not a mathematician or a computer scientist, though.
[13:36]	:	radians i understand as well, but not this x,y,z,w stuff
[13:36]	:	XYZW is a way to avoid confusing the computer.
[13:36]	:	w?
[13:37]	:	It might be S
[13:37]	:	yea, it's ually us converting back and forth with rot/euler because I don't understand how to do the same thing directly to rot
[13:37]	:	s/w - i don't know. it's just a fourth letter i have no clue about
[13:37]	:	We apparently have a wiki article on quaternions: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Quaternion
[13:37]	:	Much thanks to the Residents who wrote it.
[13:38]	:	yea, i've read it before and can't make much sense of it.
[13:38]	:	I'll be honest, it looks like a lot of complex math to me. Once I discovered Euler rotations, I was in much better shape.
[13:39]	:	yep. they sould offer some methods to work with rotations using vectors instead of going through all those hoops to use quantarions
[13:39]	:	Complex Math isn't so confusing, as long as you remember that negative numbers have square roots too
[13:40]	:	However, I have friends who understand quaternions, and for many applications they can be easier to work with.
[13:40]	:	I normally keyboard straight in, for simple right angles
[13:40]	:	how can a negative number have a square root? one of the numbers has to be negative and the other positive to get a negative number. what is the square root of -4 ?
[13:40]	:	Imaginary numbers :-)
[13:41]	:	2i
[13:41]	:	that's just a made up number
[13:41]	:	At first, the numbers were strictly imaginary, but the nature of the Speed of Light, and related electromagnetic effects made us take notice
[13:42]	:	"What is the square root of orange." -- some goofy radio commercial, mocking games shows.
[13:42]	:	Is that a Florida Orange, or a Clockwork Orange?
[13:43]	:	Orange you glad to know these things?
[13:43]	:	(And they gave an answer in that commercial, too.... but I don't remember what it was... heh...)
[13:43]	:	610 nm
[13:44]	:	24.698 nm (ultra violet)
[13:44]	:	Anyone know how many furlongs are in a mile?
[13:44]	:	8
[13:44]	:	Dunno, but it's one Google away. :D
[13:45]	:	I use Furlongs to convert miles to kilometers.
[13:45]	:	i just use math
[13:45]	:	We've wicked Chat Lag
[13:45]	:	yup
[13:45]	:	Furlong's are for furries
[13:45]	:	Nathan Adored gives a great big smile.
[13:45]	:	Nathan Adored isn't a furry, but hangs out with them regularly.
[13:46]	:	Arawn Spitteler imagines brushing the first two hundred meters
[13:46]	:	Should be called FurrLongs over there
[13:47]	:	Arawn Spitteler imagines flexy fur, four sims long
[13:47]	:	Heh. That would be awesome for performance.
[13:47]	:	yeah, but imagine the lag induced... :D
[13:47]	:	lol
[13:47]	:	Actually, it would only be four fifths of a sim
[13:47]	:	Sorry, just nerding out over sims-long flexi megaprims.
[13:47]	:	Sounds like a good idea for a megaprim
[13:48]	:	as long as it's just 1 prim, shouldn't be much lag
[13:48]	:	yeah, but prim hair tends to be multiple prims
[13:48]	:	Maybe not on the processing side, but it would do bad things to Avatar Rendering Cost. :-)
[13:48]	:	Nathan Adored gives a lopsided smile.
[13:49]	:	Nyx did a demo for me once where he wore a 65km megaprim on his head. His ARC went into the tens of thousands.
[13:49]	:	Arawn Spitteler should show up at Lummerland on Sunday, to see what he's started
[13:49]	:	woah
[13:49]	:	If your ARC goes too high, don't you dissappear?
[13:50]	:	I think that's a known bug, Arawn. Some designers have been making use of it for things like really tiny avatars, but there's an upcoming feature in Viewer 2.0 that will make such exploits less enticing.
[13:51]	:	I'd regard it as a useful feature; it's much better than Invisiprim
[13:51]	:	That's actually why we're including it. Nyx would be able to go into more detail at his office hours.
[13:51]	:	alpha skins
[13:52]	:	nyx was just talking about it before i arrived here
[13:52]	:	Jeremy: Oh? They have somthing that's better than the tinytiny approach? What is it? Or is that one of those "If I told you I'd have to kill you" things?
[13:52]	 	has pinged you.
[13:52]	:	Arawn Spitteler'd like scriptable skins
[13:52]	:	ah
[13:52]	:	Will there be more detailed, more sophistacated shapes with 2.0?
[13:52]	:	I'm not sure how much I'm allowed to say. It's a project Nyx's team is working on, so they'd know better.
[13:52]	:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-812
[13:53]	:	they are hoping that 2.0 public beta may have something to try out, no guarentees. hoping it may come out by the end of february - again, no guarentees.
[13:53]	:	it's more like, what he wasn't saying, is what you could deduce what he was trying to say by not saying it.
[13:53]	:	ah, yeah, I've seen some odf those effects pictures in that last link
[13:53]	:	*pictured
[13:54]	:	Heh. I know it's frustrating for you guys, but our official company policy on talking about stuff we're not 100% sure of is "it's better to say nothing than to say the wrong thing." Big rumors get started that way :-)
[13:54]	:	heh, true
[13:55]	:	Nathan Adored wonders how much of SL 2.0's features will propogate out to the OpenSim worlds.
[13:55]	:	Now there's something I know 0% about :-)
[13:55]	:	LOL
[13:55]	:	Open Sims should be open to SL2, which is mostly viewer side
[13:55]	:	I imagine some of the features will find their way into Snowglobe, our open source viewer.
[13:55]	:	it's just that nothing seems to come from that, and everyone is speculating before anything comes out - or things come out of nowhere that upset people
[13:56]	:	SVC-2931 was rather upsetting
[13:56]	:	Well, I'm looking forward to meshes.
[13:56]	:	i'm wondering if client-side scripting will allow better integration with xstreet
[13:57]	:	Client-side scripting certainly would be a big deal, even internally for us, for testing :-)
[13:57]	:	better integration to xsl in what way?
[13:58]	:	easier to find things. imagine walking into a store and a client-side hud loads up pictures from the website with videos and demontrations
[13:58]	:	or finding other stores with similar content
[13:58]	:	leave a review of the store when you are there
[13:59]	:	Dedric, I think you'll be happy about one particular new feature in Viewer 2. I don't think it'll replace your HUD idea, but it'll certainly make a lot of the things you described much more viable.
[13:59]	:	you can only have so many huds, tho... :D
[13:59]	:	love all this cryptic talk.
[13:59]	:	ROFL
[13:59]	:	I'm asking for permission to talk about that one as we speak :-)
[13:59]	:	Nathan Adored says "KEWL!" :D
[13:59]	:	i see a future of griefer plugins where they control other peoples avatars to do their griefing for them
[14:00]	:	Urk! Oo
[14:00]	:	sounds kinda like bots too
[14:01]	:	Hm. Looks like most people are out to lunch :-P
[14:01]	:	One of the sims I'm on reguillarly has 2 or 3 resident bots, one of them more intertrainment, responds to chat with goofy responses, the others are to defend the sim against greifers when needed, and stuff
[14:02]	:	I have seen bots used as greeters in some shops, tho.
[14:02]	:	Are you aware of the Scripted Agent Status setting on our account pages? https://secure-web25.secondlife.com/my/account/sisa.php
[14:02]	:	Hai
[14:02]	:	Hello!
[14:02]	:	yes, i flagged it for my companies bot
[14:03]	:	hey Jeremy how are you?
[14:03]	 	has pinged you.
[14:03]	:	Pretty good! We're just wrapping up Documentation Office Hours :-)
[14:03]	:	okies
[14:03]	:	:]
[14:04]	:	㋡
[14:04]	:	huggie?
[14:04]	:	Cal Koray opens their eyes wide
[14:04]	:	Huggie?
[14:04]	:	HUGGIE?? >:o
[14:04]	:	HUGGIES! HUGGIES!! HUGGIES!!! HUGGIEZ!!!!
[14:05]	:	Hmm... lemme archive this transcript while I stall for more time...
[14:05]	:	lol
[14:05]	:	Cal Koray ticks off jeremy linden on his linden hug list
[14:05]	 	has pinged you.
[14:05]	:	heh
[14:05]	:	got a goal to hug every Linden at least once, eh? :D
[14:05]	:	yes
[14:05]	:	LOL
[14:06]	:	°°° Yes! °°°
[14:06]	:	lol. archive the hugs.
[14:06]	:	Nathan Adored gives a great big smile.
[14:06]	:	wonder if i can find her
[14:06]	:	Dang. I just got word back. I can't talk about that feature I was referring to :-X
[14:06]	:	pity
[14:06]	:	Well, I'm sure we'll hear about it soon enough
[14:06]	:	Jeremy i just gave you a hug while you was doing something, hope you dont mind :)
[14:06]	 	has pinged you.
[14:07]	:	Yep! And we'll have lots to talk about at this office hour once we get a public beta out :-)
[14:07]	:	hehehehe
[14:07]	:	kewl
[14:07]	:	No worries, Cal.
[14:07]	:	Hi5!
[14:07]	:	will much in the way of documentation be released with public beta?
 
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Category:Documentation Office Hours