Open Development User Group/Archive/2011-04-11

07:00 	Office Orb  	mail_to set to oz@lindenlab.com
  	  	Start transcription to oz@lindenlab.com
  	  	Transcript will be sent to: oz@lindenlab.com
07:01 	Wolfpup  	how are you doing this morning Oz
07:02 	Oz Linden  	Good morning folks
  	draconis.neurocam 	is there a reason you removed merov's name from the snowstorm page?
07:03 	Oz Linden  	https://jira.secondlife.com/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa?reset=true&jqlQuery=project+%%3D+%%22Open+Development%%22+AND+assignee+is+EMPTY+AND+status+%%3D+%%22Awaiting+Review%%22++ORDER+BY+createdDate%%2C+priority+DESC
07:04 	  	Merov has moved to a different team
  	draconis.neurocam 	ah shame
  	Oz Linden  	He'll still be engaged with open source
  	draconis.neurocam 	nods
  	Oz Linden  	it just won't be his primary focus now
07:05 	  	He's working on some very cool stuff
  	Wolfpup  	that is a shame that means your going to be reliing on the open source developers more now
  	Oz Linden  	well, I don't see relying on osdevs as a problem
  	Wolfpup  	true
  	  	how are the new build frams doing?
07:06 	Oz Linden  	network was installed for them last week, and the router will be set up this week
  	  	then I can start configuring systems
  	  	I'm hoping for next week or the week after to start trials
07:07 	  	we'll see... it's a somewhat lower priority project than other things, so time on it is on an as-available basis
  	Wolfpup  	< hopes is going to be helping with the trials
07:08 	Oz Linden  	open-61
  	Office Orb  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-61
OPEN-61 As an OS Dev using VC Express on Windows, I would like the msvcp100 and msvcr100 files to be found and copied automatically.
07:09 	Oz Linden  	Is this fix in the same repo you forked from my open-50 repo, Ima ?
  	Office Orb  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-50
OPEN-50 As an Open Source developer I would like a single set of configurations, which work for both Visual Studio and Express version of VC.
  	Ima Mechanique  	no
  	Oz Linden  	ok
  	Ima Mechanique  	separate viewer-development fork
  	Oz Linden  	I'm going to take another stab at that
  	Ima Mechanique  	link on the jira
07:10 	  	the open-50 fork should be much easier to follow as it doesn't have to contend with the renaming and reordering
  	Oz Linden  	Do we need to just bite the bullet and define a cmake swith that means "I am using Express, so do all the workarounds" ?
07:11 	Ima Mechanique  	I don't think so
  	  	my own feeling is that the configuration should just work out of the box for everyone. that means some specific switches can't be used. but anyone advanced enough to want them would be able to deal with that
  	Wolfpup  	that might be best
07:12 	Oz Linden  	ok.... I'll put all these Express issues into the STORM Sprint 14
  	  	that's a good goal
  	  	open-57
  	Office Orb  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-57
OPEN-57 As a developer, I want to be able to override the local platform for manipulating and testing the configuration
07:13 	Oz Linden  	did this one myself.....
  	Ima Mechanique  	the express issues aren't ewally a problem. Brad said the UNATTENDED switch doesn't have relevance for OS devs anymore,
  	Wolfpup  	Oz it would be a good idea to have is so that windows devs can have avail some specific switches
  	Oz Linden  	... and since no other Lindens have objected, I'm going to integrate it
07:14 	  	like what, Wolfpup?
  	Wolfpup  	UES_PRECOMPILED_HEADER
  	Ima Mechanique  	it's included on my open-50 fork
  	Wolfpup  	and some msbild specific switches
07:15 	Oz Linden  	I included that in my versions of the open configurations (which are not working yet)
  	Ima Mechanique  	that switch isn't Windows only so it is in common
  	  	my fork adds all the msbuild stuff
  	Wolfpup  	Ima only VS2010 uses precompiled headers if you look in the cmake files
07:16 	Oz Linden  	one of the things I did when importing the parts of the OPEN-50 changes I did (which is not finished) was to refactor the switches so that common and default values were used more
  	Ima Mechanique  	really? that's funny because adding it takes 35 minutes off my build time
  	Wolfpup  	darwin and linux devs will get an error notise about it
  	Oz Linden  	rather than having explicit settings in many places that were all the same
  	Ima Mechanique  	or do you mean only windows?
  	Wolfpup  	it takes an hour and 15 minutes off min
07:17 	Oz Linden  	well, from my perspective running multi-platform builds, improving Linux and Mac times is more or less pointless - Windows is 4 to 5 times as long, so I don't gain anything
07:18 	  	not that I object, but it's certainly not a priority
  	Ima Mechanique  	Oz, what's the status of the FMOD lib. Is it policy now that the public s3 link is not included?
  	Oz Linden  	yes, it has to be, but....
  	Ima Mechanique  	or was it only the KDU one that was a mistake?
07:19 	Oz Linden  	I'm going to post a wiki page today on how to build it locally and include it in your own builds
  	Wolfpup  	Ima LL can not distro FMOD or KDU
  	Ima Mechanique  	I ask, because I'd like FMOD = true to be default for windows users definitely, and may be for other platforms
  	Oz Linden  	Merov wrote it up in email a while ago, but we didn't get it into the wiki
07:20 	  	yes, it's obviously better if you can all use FMOD
  	Ima Mechanique  	most windows users will want it, anyone that doesn't will know about it to NOT want it so can change the default
  	Oz Linden  	it's just a license thing... we're not allowed to distribute it, but we can (and do) distribute a way for you to get what you need and build it yourself
07:21 	  	we just have to make that clearer and easier :-)
  	Wolfpup  	after making severl mods to the 3p-fmod repository i finaly have a localy built fmot package and use FMOD=ON
  	Ima Mechanique  	sure I understand there's a licensing problem. Has LL actually tried approaching the owners to aqurie persion for the 3.75?
  	Oz Linden  	were the mods to support building w/ Express?
  	  	Not yet, Ima
07:22 	Ima Mechanique  	not Express specifc no
  	Wolfpup  	Oz the mods i had to do are because my Cygwin dose not have the same needed files as LL's version
  	Ima Mechanique  	cygwin's unzip cannot operate on WinZip files
  	Wolfpup  	could not extract of pull the zip file
  	Oz Linden  	bother
07:23 	Ima Mechanique  	also, curl is not a default part of cygwin install, but there's no clear error telling you why it can't download the file
  	Wolfpup  	i had to install 7z and then mod the build-cmd.sh to use it
  	Ima Mechanique  	the work around for unzip is simple enough, I was going to document it when I got to doing the 3p-* in more detail
07:24 	  	Wolf you can get around it without moding the build-cmd.sh
  	Oz Linden  	well, let's make sure we get whatever changes we need (sounds like some of it will be updates to the environment setup instructions)
  	Ima Mechanique  	yes
  	Wolfpup  	it would help is there was an exaclt lising of what is in LL's Cygwin settings
07:25 	Oz Linden  	wow... I'm going to have to fiddle with the Windlight settings here... I've got it turned on now and this is really gloomy :-)
  	draconis.neurocam 	oooh
  	Oz Linden  	coming soon to a Project Viewer near you !
  	draconis.neurocam 	yaaay
07:26 	  	i understand why its taken so long, but its always been silly to me for LL to not have given more priority to something that would better the image of sl on the whole
07:27 	  	glad to see its even closer
  	Oz Linden  	well, I don't really have any idea why it sat on the shelf gathering dust, but we've resurrected it and it will be our Sprint 14 focus
  	  	it's pretty cool
07:28 	  	So... that's all the triage issues.... any other topics this morning?
07:29 	draconis.neurocam 	but yes wolfpup i would agree, right now we are only told we need, bison, patchutils, and flex, i feel like there is probably more
  	Ima Mechanique  	curl
  	  	efinitely
  	  	and GnuWin32 unzip
07:30 	Wolfpup  	is that last one part of Cygwin Ima?
  	Ima Mechanique  	I wonder what is installed on the Windows build machine. It probably doesn't have VS 2010, as it seems most CI build operators consider that a bad idea
07:31 	Eddi Decosta  	heya :)
  	Ima Mechanique  	hi Eddi
  	Wolfpup  	hey eddi
  	draconis.neurocam 	hello eddi
  	Oz Linden  	don't understand your question/speculation, Ima
  	  	whose build machine?
  	  	hi Eddi
07:32 	Wolfpup  	Oz the LL build farms
  	draconis.neurocam 	i believe he is just saying it would be nice to know all of what ll uses to build windows with, including anything extra from the dependancies that might not be listed anywhere
  	Ima Mechanique  	Last 2-3 days I've been doing a lot of research into differences between VC Express/Full version and automation and it seems COntinuous Integration works better without VS installed on the windows builder.
07:33 	Oz Linden  	no, our build farm is set up for 2010 now - has to be
  	Ima Mechanique  	So I wonder if that's the case with TC and in general knowing the actual environment might be a big help
  	Oz Linden  	ah... well, my intent is that we get the public setup instructions to as closely as possible match the internal system setup
07:34 	Ima Mechanique  	being "set up for" does not necessarily mean installing Visual Studio
  	Oz Linden  	In the course of setting up the new public TC, I'll double check that
  	Wolfpup  	yes it would help the OS devs if we could closer configure our systems to LL build system
  	Ima Mechanique  	only needs the compilers and some support proggies
  	Oz Linden  	I may even have to borrow a box and put windows on it and try it myself
  	  	shudders
  	draconis.neurocam 	hehe
07:35 	Ima Mechanique  	lol
  	draconis.neurocam 	oz, do you have any idea if the other teams that have beta viewers will pick up the autobuild changes any time soon?
  	Oz Linden  	My wife just got a new job and will be using Linux for the first time.... she's anxious about it, but I'll finally be able to help her with any system issues she has
07:36 	draconis.neurocam 	nice
  	Wolfpup  	Oz one thing is certian Windows Os devs can use msbuild from the 7.1SDK for the cmd line in both an express and pro VS
  	Ima Mechanique  	depending on what she's using it for I don't imagine she really need worry
  	Oz Linden  	I don't know yet what flavor here new company uses...
07:37 	Ima Mechanique  	off course, useability depends so much on the distro ;-)
07:38 	Oz Linden  	I'd really love it if we could make the same build commands work for both express and non-express users, and both Lindens and OsDevs, but I think incredibuild gets in the way
  	Ima Mechanique  	I was trying to set up a environment on Ubunto I can do all my WebDev on.
  	Wolfpup  	the basics will be the same no mater what the flavor of linux is is just more advanced thigs will be handled differenty
07:39 	Ima Mechanique  	I'm not sure incredibuild is any impediment
  	Oz Linden  	well, it's a goal... we'll see how close we can come
  	draconis.neurocam 	also, about windows stuff, i noticed there is a service pack 1 for visual studio 2010, that i had to get manually, didnt show up in windows update, and it isnt listed on the things to use page, just something i noticed
  	Ima Mechanique  	oh, do you mean in terms of reducing to ONLY 3 configurations?
  	Wolfpup  	Oz as part of testin the public build fram set all the windows settings to use msbuild instead of devenv
07:40 	Oz Linden  	well, I don't think we can completely separate the configurations because of KDU (and soon Havok)
  	Ima Mechanique  	Wolf, you mean the LL build too?
  	Oz Linden  	but it would be nice if the build commands themselves were the same
  	Wolfpup  	yes
07:41 	  	i think merov at one point was going to test that
  	Ima Mechanique  	hmm, well Oz, you'll have to persuade TC to switch over to msbuild. I'm not sure they'll want to ;-)
  	  	from they're point of view, Why fix something that ain't broke?
07:42 	Oz Linden  	Well, the real reason is that when I get a contribution I'd like to know that it has been tested building it the way we will build it
  	  	one unified set of bugs :-)
07:43 	Ima Mechanique  	you might be able to sell it on that. Why have two layers of build management, TC and incrdibuild
  	  	but if they're using any of the incredibuild extras to improve performance or versatiltiy then that's the answer
07:44 	Oz Linden  	I don't really know, unfortunately
07:45 	  	will have to do some experiments....
  	Ima Mechanique  	it may originally have been used to make life simpler, because msbuild couldn't handle C/C++ builds
  	  	if that's the case, it's not needed any more
07:48 	  	Oz any idea when you can look at open-50 again?
07:49 	Oz Linden  	it's high on my list for this week... in fact, will move to STORM so I can import it to this sprint
  	Ima Mechanique  	okay
  	Oz Linden  	I've got a lot of meetings today, but I should get back to it no later than tomorrow
  	draconis.neurocam 	ah
07:50 	Ima Mechanique  	I'll take a look at my end to see if I've missed anything we talked about earlier
  	Oz Linden  	thanks
  	  	well, if we don't have any other topics today, I'd just as soon get a start on my sprint planning....
07:51 	Ima Mechanique  	I'm actually using the xml for my builds, finding it easier than having to add all the switches to the command line again ;-)
  	  	sure
  	draconis.neurocam 	real quick, did the last items you merged hit the build servers oz, the ones from today?
  	Oz Linden  	you know that you can make your own copy of autobuild.xml and point to it with an environment variable ?
  	  	those merges are building now, draconis
07:52 	Ima Mechanique  	no I didn't, I tried using the config switch but it broke
  	draconis.neurocam 	ah alright
  	  	thanks
  	Oz Linden  	looks like they'll be done in 40-50 minutes
  	draconis.neurocam 	nods
  	Ima Mechanique  	what's the env variable Oz?
  	Oz Linden  	AUTOBUILD_CONFIG_FILE
  	Ima Mechanique  	sweet.
07:53 	  	does the original file have to exist still?
  	Oz Linden  	and you can specify the configuration to build in AUTOBUILD_CONFIGURATION
  	  	no
  	Ima Mechanique  	good, cuz with the command line switch it kept falling back to the original, and choked if I removed it
  	Oz Linden  	those provide defaults for the --config-file and --configuration arguments respectively
07:54 	Ima Mechanique  	hmm, I'll try it. but those are what I had problems using
07:55 	Oz Linden  	they work right on Mac and Linux, I'm sure
07:56 	  	if the environment variables are inherited correctly on Windows, they should work there too
  	  	Hi Opensource
  	oobscure  	hey verybody
07:57 	draconis.neurocam 	hello opensource
  	Ima Mechanique  	hey OpenSource
  	Eddi Decosta  	hi opensource :)
07:59 	Ima Mechanique  	just testing now ;-)
  	draconis.neurocam 	have a good day oz
  	Oz Linden  	I'm getting the Open Development Candidates pseudo-versions cleaned up in STORM and VWR (will probably move them all to VWR)
  	Ima Mechanique  	damn, everything's relative to the xml file
  	Oz Linden  	eventually, those will be a great place to look for work we'd like open devs to take on
08:00 	Office Orb  	Your timer has expired!
  	Ima Mechanique  	thought I could put my copy outside the source :-)
  	Oz Linden  	no, you can't
  	  	but you could make a copy and then configure hg to ignore it
  	oobscure  	(( ..just a small reminder about my request to a more structured approach to labels in JIRA ))
  	Oz Linden  	in fact, it might be a good idea for us to come up with a convention for that and check in the ignore
  	Ima Mechanique  	doing that now ;-)
08:01 	Oz Linden  	yes, I'll reply to that, oobscure....
  	oobscure  	thanks!
  	Ima Mechanique  	can't use that
  	  	well not easily
  	Oz Linden  	I'm having a bunch of internal discussions about VWR policies - once those are clear, I'll get some public guidance about labels out there
08:03 	Ima Mechanique  	sorted ;-)
  	  	labels for...
  	oobscure  	where do I find the date a certain Sprint is due to?
08:04 	Oz Linden  	we stopped putting those on the Snowstorm calendar a while back... I'll get them put back
  	  	but it should be in the jira....
  	  	...looking....
08:07 	Wolfpup  	Oz you relize storm-83 will be a PIA to implament?
  	Office Orb  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-83
STORM-83 As a user who cannot type of spell to save their life, I want dynamic spell check for everything I type, so I a little bit more literate. :)
  	Oz Linden  	fixed the Sprint 14 date (Apr 22 is the end)
  	oobscure  	ah i see oz, thanks
  	draconis.neurocam 	wolfpup its in phoenix, and when it was in emerald, it was indeed a pita to write
08:08 	Oz Linden  	Sure, Wolfpup.... but you of all people should appreciate it (and me too!)
  	draconis.neurocam 	there were days all text in the ui was underlined in red
  	  	not fun
  	Wolfpup  	< has learnt to read typoneesses :p
08:09 	draconis.neurocam 	or red, and not just underlined
  	oobscure  	"sprint end" means ... on that day, fixes get into viewer development?
  	Oz Linden  	no, fixes can be integrated any time during the sprint when they are ready
  	Wolfpup  	that means storm-1098 should be going in now as it was in the last sprint
  	Office Orb  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-1098
STORM-1098 Debug setting ShowNetStats has wrong description
  	oobscure  	oh , right
08:10 	Oz Linden  	yeah, I missed that one over the weekend, but it should go in shortly...
08:11 	  	anyway, I'm over time and need to do some work before the sprint planning meeting this afternoon
  	oobscure  	I gotta go ... I updated https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source_Portal/it
  	Oz Linden  	tty all later
  	Office Orb  	End transcription
  	oobscure  	and https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Compiling_the_viewer_(Linux)/it
  	  	bye Oz!
  	  	bye everybody