Content Creation Improvement Informal User Group/Archive/July 24th, 2012 Meeting

15:04 	Geenz Spad  	alright, now that everyone's here, let's get started
  	Anouk Spot  	hi!
  	Braydon Randt  	i would give my feet .......... :P
15:05 	Asha  	lol
  	Geenz Spad  	anyways, a couple of things before we get started
  	Siddean Munro  	Can I ask that we try and keep chatter to a minimum, there's a lot to get through today :)
  	Geenz Spad  	indeed
  	  	a couple of things on the agenda will be condensed, since there are a number of major items on there today; everyone can find the agenda here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation_Improvement_Informal_User_Group
  	Braydon Randt  	thats me told off then .... allready
15:06 	Geenz Spad  	so, let's get started with JIRA discussion
  	  	any interesting JIRAs today?
  	Elie Spot  	is that alpha issue on the shirt/undershirt being hashed out?
15:07 	Geenz Spad  	which one in particular?
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl 	If I recall, the edge blending issue?
  	Elie Spot  	the bald spot we get on the stomach
  	Typhaon Nishi  	ar eyou talking about the gap between them?
  	Elie Spot  	yes
  	  	i forget the jira number
  	Geenz Spad  	oh, I haven't had time to look into that one yet; but if I'm correct, it should just be a modification of some local textures
  	  	I'll look into that one this week
  	Elie Spot  	great!
15:08 	  	none others from me!
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl 	Can you dig up the specific JIRA, Elie?
  	Typhaon Nishi  	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SH-2103
  	Geenz Spad  	should be able to get that sent upstream before the shining project gets too far under way
  	Typhaon Nishi  	is that the one Elie?
  	Elie Spot  	thanks typyh!
  	  	thats it
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl 	That's it indeed, Typhaon.
  	  	Thank you kindly.
  	Typhaon Nishi  	np
  	Geenz Spad  	anything else anyone wants to bring up?
15:09 	  	alright the, moving on I suppose
  	  	today I'd like to bring up a community proposal I've been working on over the weekend for morph targets
15:10 	  	all of you can find it here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Morph_Target_Community_Proposal
  	  	now, a few bits about this: this does not indicate that LL will be doing this, and right now it primarily focuses on clothing
15:11 	  	there's somethings that are yet to be decided on the proposal, and that's where you guys come in!
15:12 	  	now, there's no way we can pack in the entire discussion of what should be a part of the initial features of it, so instead I'd like people to focus on posting your feedback on the discussion page of that wiki article
  	Elie Spot  	good idea!
  	Geenz Spad  	there are instructions on how to do that on the wiki, and the best part is there's a bit more posterity than the meetings by doing so
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl 	And more effective recall of any salient points.
15:14 	Geenz Spad  	now, we are currently focusing on how this can improve clothing, and although I do understand the applications for prims and non-rigged meshes, those should be seen as a later goal
  	  	think of this as putting together the framework
15:15 	Siddean Munro  	So from a content creators perspective, what do we need to know/learn? In terms of what we do to our models?
  	Typhaon Nishi  	what kind of features are you looking for?
  	Geenz Spad  	once we have the framework in place, in theory we should be able to improve it later
15:16 	  	any feature that would improve content creators' workflows by using morph targets
  	  	now, you're all free to ask any questions in the discussion page there, and someone will try their best to answer them
15:17 	Elie Spot  	so should we just jot all our thoughts down and post them to this wiki then?
  	Geenz Spad  	so for now, let's focus the morph target conversation there
  	Siddean Munro  	alright
  	Geenz Spad  	that's correct Elie
  	Elie Spot  	ok
  	Siddean Munro  	There's a discussion tab
  	Elie Spot  	yes, so posting it here in this meeting is just so we're all aware of it, and how to continue the discussion (via the wiki)
15:18 	Geenz Spad  	indeed
  	Elie Spot  	cool
  	Geenz Spad  	hopefully this should help with our time constraints as well :P
  	Nal  	CAn more than one perrson at a time edit the Discussion page in the wiki?
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl 	We could quite readily get lost in a topic like that otherwise. ;)
  	Geenz Spad  	should be able to, not entirely sure
  	Elie Spot  	we sure could selkit ;)
15:19 	Geenz Spad  	but if your topic doesn't post, just try again
  	Nal  	I'm not certain thats a problem, but I have had problems editing agendas during meetings.
  	Geenz Spad  	anyways, there's a couple of subjects we didn't quite get last time
  	  	so, to start things off:
  	  	Build floater improvement discussion (continued from July 17, 2012's meeting) Geenz Spad
15:20 	  	we touched on this one briefly last time, so to reiterate:
  	  	the build floater now days is starting to look quite cramped; adding more features to it just results in it looking more and more pressed for space
15:21 	Elie Spot  	Maybe this is just me, but even if the build floater was the worst thing in the world, I don't even know how I'd recognize what needed to be changed because I'm so used to it lol
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl 	I'm slightly biased towards the pie menu, but that may just be the oldbie in me talking. ;)
  	Elie Spot  	I loved the pie menu
  	  	so friendly
  	Geenz Spad  	because of how cramped it is at this time, certain localizations seemingly break the floater with words actually overflowing out of it
15:22 	  	if people want a good example of how cramped this thing is, here's the idea that Maxwell brought up last week for adding texture and color sets to it
[15:22] Can't rez object at { 150.346, 97.3415, 29.405 } because the owner of this land does not allow it. Use the land tool to see land ownership.
15:23 	Siddean Munro  	Is there a reason why the build floater can't be resizable? Forgive me if that's a dumb question
  	Braydon Randt  	i can see the bennefit of possibly display the last texture history ..... but gradients im not sure is such a bennefit
15:24 	  	and i still believe .... that making the floaters undockable off the viewer .. would be the biggest bennefit
  	Elie Spot  	yeah i personally cant see that one getting used much.. cool idea though
  	Geenz Spad  	it may not be additional texture pickers, but it certainly demonstrates the problem; the more we add, the less space we have, and the more we have to find ways to condense existing features
  	Anouk Spot  	i wondered about that too. seems like if it re sizable\ it could help
  	  	were*
  	Asha  	I don't see gradients getting used much either.
  	Elie Spot  	i agree, i also think the pay floater should be resizable, so many times the product name gets cut off and customers can't see the color or description
  	Anouk Spot  	right
15:25 	Elie Spot  	resizable floaters would def help i think
  	Geenz Spad  	how would that work out if we were to say, add additional texture or color pickers for whatever reason?
  	  	personally I think some sort of "extended" mode wouldn't be bad
  	Typhaon Nishi  	I think if certain options like the gradient/history are going to be added then there could be an extension tab from this menu to stop it from getting clustered
  	  	lol
  	Geenz Spad  	basically, click a button, get a different build floater designed to alleviate these problems and be more flexible for new features
15:26 	Angus Mesmer  	Could those be on a fold-out to the side of the floater, perhaps? Thus keeping the current disposition
  	Elie Spot  	i like the fold out idea
  	  	launching new floaters gets cluttered
  	Typhaon Nishi  	yeah last week I suggested myabe like a "+" or "more" button if it were to be extended
15:27 	woozl Selkit T. Woozl 	Task-optimized floaters like most 3dware, might not be a bad idea.
  	Geenz Spad  	an extended build floater I think should be more of a model for a "new" build floater
  	Braydon Randt  	but you can get out of controll with that .... for each part will have its own section , which is what happens now .... you can only give convenience a priority .. if its not just laziness
  	Oz Linden  	Bear in mind that if you invent mechanisms that the viewer does not have in some existing floater, you make the job very much more difficult.
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl 	For example, the texturing or render manager tabs, or the geometry manipulation modes.
  	Geenz Spad  	with the old build floater staying around for people who prefer to work with it
  	Angus Mesmer  	I also find myself using the texture align quite often, not sure if bottom right, under the rest is the best place.
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl 	Texture align is a godsend.
  	  	Some spots on this very build would not have been possible without.
  	Typhaon Nishi  	extend the ones that are useful to you
  	Geenz Spad  	the reasoning behind this is to make it easier to add new functionality, and have more space for things like different localizations
15:28 	  	I believe Nal brought up a good point regarding the german version of SL and the build floater
  	  	on that version, words will actually overflow due to the amount of space we have for the floater
15:29 	Elie Spot  	would resize be a viable solution?
  	Typhaon Nishi  	resize would be cool
  	Elie Spot  	a bottom right resizer?
  	Braydon Randt  	so we should learn ancient eqyptian *lol*
  	Geenz Spad  	I think that'd be a bit of a bandage for the existing floater
  	Typhaon Nishi  	for some reason I always try to resize it as like a natural reaction
  	Elie Spot  	me tooo
  	  	haha
  	Geenz Spad  	but a potentially viable temporary fix for the localizations
  	Elie Spot  	same w/ the pay floater
  	  	when i see a product name being cut off
15:30 	Geenz Spad  	(at least in the interim)
  	Typhaon Nishi  	each time I think its gna happen
  	Geenz Spad  	so that may be doable for now
  	Angus Mesmer  	such a shame there's too much stuff to make it a tool bar..
  	Siddean Munro  	Localisations - different language settings right?
  	Elie Spot  	has anyone seen the build UI in Cloud Party?
  	Geenz Spad  	do we have anyone who pokes at UIs at all in the crowd? :P
  	  	and yes Siddean
  	Siddean Munro  	thanks :)
15:31 	Asha  	Yes Elie, I have.
  	Geenz Spad  	the UI in cloud party is a bit more akin to a 3D modeling application such as Modo
  	Elie Spot  	I really like that one
  	  	with the shelf of icons up top and the extended options for each on the left
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl 	My main objection to the SL UI in its current state is that it's really, quite clumsy in some areas.
  	Geenz Spad  	though I don't think people will receive a sidebar particularly well :p but it's something we could experiment with
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl 	Texturing could use more attention than it currently gets.
  	Elie Spot  	right, I just think the floater idea makes more sense when you've not got as many build options as we have
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl 	In fact, one moment; I'll show you a bit more about what I mean.
  	Elie Spot  	we've got a complex amount of capabilities
15:32 	Angus Mesmer  	Believe me, I don't mean *that* sidebar.
  	Elie Spot  	it makes sense to equal that with a more fitting UI for build mode
  	Geenz Spad  	we could go more in this direction (Selkits finding more examples): http://www.solidsmack.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/modo-step-by-step-05.jpg
  	Elie Spot  	not just a floater
  	Braydon Randt  	I think Oz snuck it in there ...... ideals and wants are great .... but little ideas ... or not little realities
  	Geenz Spad  	note how Modo handles additional attributes about a mesh
  	Typhaon Nishi  	resizable and customizable
  	Braydon Randt  	are*
15:33 	Geenz Spad  	so maybe taking a page out of a 3D modeling application's book wouldn't be a bad idea?
  	  	albeit, somewhat more simple mind you
  	Elie Spot  	not a bad idea, I wish I could find a screencap of Cloud Party build mode UI
  	Geenz Spad  	SL isn't a 3D modeling application afterall
  	Elie Spot  	they've combined friendly easy to understand icons w/ a more intense 3d setup
  	Typhaon Nishi  	so is LL looking to redesign the build floater? or are wesuggesting this as a new feature?
15:34 	Elie Spot  	suggesting
  	Geenz Spad  	mmmh
  	Siddean Munro  	I think our build floater just needs to resize to accommodate what is in it, whether it be more options, or different language scripts
  	Elie Spot  	we've clearly used up the current build floater, its just too much
  	Geenz Spad  	I can't say that LL is going to *for sure* change the build floater, but I believe even they get the feeling that it should be reworked sometime soon
  	Braydon Randt  	i vote we use blender 2.49 ui * laughs*
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl 	This is a sample of the UI in Modo 601, my usual 3Dware of choice.
  	  	Purpose-built functional sidebars somewhat similar in concept to the floater.
  	  	Each one pared down by category to a specific task.
  	Asha  	lol Bray.... don't start a massacre
15:35 	woozl Selkit T. Woozl 	With a user-customizable selection.
15:36 	Braydon Randt  	so we are heading towards a " SL Viewer builders edition"
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl 	More windows in the floater might not be such a bad idea provided they're sensibly categorized and task-focused.
  	Siddean Munro  	I think it makes more sense that SL Viewer Newbie Edition :)
  	Angus Mesmer  	Amen to that
  	Elie Spot  	this might be a weird question but.... if we offer up any UI improvements, should we keep mobile versions in mind? idk if LL will ever go that route w/ SL but it might be valuable to consider
  	Geenz Spad  	let's steer away from having "editions" of the viewer :P
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl 	And the key notion is, build up in optional complexity.
15:37 	Typhaon Nishi  	I quite like the idea of customizing it, being able to create your own. I've seen that on more and more recent websites where you customize how you want it to look so its suited to how you want to use it
  	Geenz Spad  	we already have enough TPVs out there that effectively serve that purpose
  	Oz Linden  	What do you think that the natural/useful task groupings are?
  	Braydon Randt  	newbie edition will have the " i need 100L till tommorow can we have sex now" buitton ?
  	Geenz Spad  	how about we establish a couple of tasks today:
15:38 	woozl Selkit T. Woozl 	Oz; I would feel that the 'natural' task groupings would be geometry, functions, animation (Assuming we end up with a GMod 13 style option to preview/adjust them?) and texturing with materials options on the off chance that surfaces.
  	Geenz Spad  	Oz has a very good question, what task groupings would be useful
  	Siddean Munro  	Oz - for someone like me, permissions, textures, name and descriptions and a small section for contents incase scripts need to be added.
  	Oz Linden  	Just a brainstorming exercise... forget layout and size...what control groups should there be, and which of the existing controls should be in the same groups?
  	Geenz Spad  	so let's focus on coming up with some task groupings that both feel natural together, and can increase productivity
15:39 	Finlay MacFanatic  	I'm with Siddean
  	Braydon Randt  	personally .. i dont have a problem with how its grouped ....
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl 	Asset, Function, Geometry, Texturing, with the option of animation if features arise.
  	Elie Spot  	i agree w/ sid
  	Geenz Spad  	and second, I'd like to put out an open call for people to submit ideas for a new build floater; concept images or rough drawings of how a new build floater should work would be preferrable
15:40 	woozl Selkit T. Woozl 	And from there, prioritize the arrangement of features inside the submenu by prevalence; Texture alignment definitely needs more than the footnote placement it has right now.
  	Geenz Spad  	they can IM me directly, send me images on SL, they can even email them to me at geenz@exodusviewer.com
  	Elie Spot  	p.s. this is the cloud party one, the top buttons are pretty bad actually, but i like the arrangement.. shelf up top with options on the left and a scrollbar - http://grabilla.com/02718-cab7f441-6652-4b63-89f2-088e4c407a1b.png
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl 	Top buttons IMHO are something to -always- avoid.
15:41 	Elie Spot  	they're bad
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl 	Any UI that requires your mouse to leave the workspace altogether is inefficient.
  	Geenz Spad  	and we'll go through some of these at next week's meeting
  	  	sound good everyone?
  	Angus Mesmer  	One of the things I see would be a separate floater for terraforming/Linden plants. Since most of the tabs don't apply.
  	Typhaon Nishi  	everyone is different which is why I would say that customizability is important. Some people prioritize thing sdifferently - so pehaps there should be a default layout/UI set then you can move which ones are suited for you
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl 	Personally, I'd love to see something like the pie menu return, but... that may be a pie in the sky dream... ;)
  	Elie Spot  	i'd like that too, i hit the wrong button all the time because of the way the menus are now
  	  	pie menu left more room for my clumsiness
  	Typhaon Nishi  	sounds good
  	Geenz Spad  	now, let's try to move on here, we have a couple more things to go
15:42 	sachi Vixen  	We love pie!
  	Geenz Spad  	maybe we'll finish by 4 today!
  	  	so, next up:
  	  	"Extended" skeleton for rigged meshes proposal discussion (continued from July 17, 2012's meeting) Geenz Spad 14:28, 16 July 2012 (PDT)
  	  	this one was originally brought up at last week's mesh import meeting
  	  	the discussion was to the tune of "what bones would people want in the interim added to the avatar's skeleton"
15:43 	  	ideas brought up were tails, bones for the fingers and toes, and so on
15:44 	  	now, just to be clear, this isn't necessarily "Avatar 2.0", think of it as more of an optional skeleton that people have the choice to rig against
  	Siddean Munro  	well I can get on board with those!
  	Elie Spot  	me2!
  	Anouk Spot  	me3
  	Crash Uladstron  	yes,I'd love toes and fingers
  	Elie Spot  	sid just wants permanent middle fingers up
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl 	One word, 'Squee'
  	Angus Mesmer  	Fingers would definitely be nice... Something more than the very few hand poses we have at the moment...
[15:45] Braydon RandtBraydon Randt gives up ever ever thinking that materials will be spoken about , and figures that rigging will be the christmas no.1 (still)
15:45 	Siddean Munro  	what about an extra couple of bones on the head to rig longer hair to?
  	  	or ears, for those inclined to wear them
15:46 	Geenz Spad  	well, let's list off things people want in terms of additional bones here:
  	  	additional bones for the extremities (fingers, toes)
  	  	bones for ears (I *think* these already exist)
  	Elie Spot  	hair really would help.. i've heard people have a heck of a time weight painting a bunch of separate hair pieces
15:47 	Geenz Spad  	bones for tails
  	  	hair, there's the tricky one
  	  	which is more along the line of "how do we make bones for hair"
15:48 	Finlay MacFanatic  	ponytail?
  	Elie Spot  	i'd think it would just be a couple for long styles going down the back, no?
  	Geenz Spad  	so that's one that's going to require a fair bit of discussion with no simple solutions
[15:48] Finlay MacFanaticFinlay MacFanatic shrugs
  	  	well, pony tail set of bones would work
  	  	is that acceptable for everyone?
  	Angus Mesmer  	A second spine attached to the back of your head
15:49 	Siddean Munro  	So, any new bones would have to have animations built into any mesh that uses them, correct?
  	Asha  	Ponytail works
  	Geenz Spad  	presumably yes, or at least you can animate them
  	  	alright, so pony tail bones
  	Braydon Randt  	yes ... and lets not forgetting existing legacy content
15:50 	Geenz Spad  	any other additional bones people would like? within reason that is
  	Anouk Spot  	not that it's my industry, but i would imagine people might want umm, a penis bone of sorts, no?
[15:50] Braydon RandtBraydon Randt wonders if rob left when we started talking about bones
  	Siddean Munro  	hahaha Anouk! Probably, yes :)
  	Geenz Spad  	let's not get our hopes or anything elses up on that one Anouk :P
  	Asha  	You already covered tail?
  	Elie Spot  	Question (This may be stupid) but the cbones redpoly was talking about adding, I believe to the chest and butt.. would those help in this case? not along the lines of their morph targets workaround, but as far as peopl ebeing able to rig more freely
  	Geenz Spad  	eh, different situation
[15:51] Finlay MacFanaticFinlay MacFanatic looks forward to ponytail bones.. he'll be sporting a 'nice' mesh mullet
15:51 	  	those would mostly have the function of having additional ways to "deform" something
  	  	let's think more about body parts we could animate
  	Elie Spot  	wlel im thinking of possible extensions, like.. extra butt bone would be a tail pretty much
  	Geenz Spad  	tail bones is already on the list :p
  	Elie Spot  	i know
  	  	but for chest bones
  	Braydon Randt  	ears and hair could be a singular entity
15:52 	Elie Spot  	i know we have physics but im trying to think if there would be another use for some more rigging freedom in the chest area
  	Braydon Randt  	penis bone ... i think the whiter and than white PG image sl has these days ... may not be so forth .. errr comming :p
  	Lovely Gears  	I was reading something about chin and the chance to rig a talking jaw for furries
15:53 	Geenz Spad  	well, let's focus on toes, fingers, tail, and pony tail
  	Siddean Munro  	Oh chin bone is a good one
  	Geenz Spad  	that sounds like a reasonable enough list for now
  	  	those would likely add the most functionality
  	Lovely Gears  	:)
  	Elie Spot  	geenz are you adding chin bone to that list
  	Typhaon Nishi  	yeah I like the fingers and toes ideas, would give greater flexibility for posers
[15:53] Braydon RandtBraydon Randt sings ./. " and heeearrrrr the word of the lord"
15:54 	Geenz Spad  	only if there's a clear use for it Elie
  	  	there's many different bones we could add, but for now let's stick with the ones with the obvious use cases
15:55 	woozl Selkit T. Woozl 	I for one of the furry contingent, say it's long past time we had tail options. :D
  	  	I'm sure the furries in denial-- er, neko crowd, would agree!
  	  	Dearie me, that was not nice of me. Sorry!
  	Asha  	lol
  	Geenz Spad  	oh dear
[15:56] AshaAsha does want to animate her Neko tail.
15:56 	Siddean Munro  	:o
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl 	Regarding the note of a chin bone, I think that's a very useful one.
  	  	Animations for eating and drinking that don't simply involve the avatar pouring a drink into a closed mouth, for example.
  	Siddean Munro  	I agree, for more than animal avvies. :)
15:57 	woozl Selkit T. Woozl 	Or war cries, or any number of exaggerated facial expressions.
  	Angus Mesmer  	And beards
  	Geenz Spad  	alright, then we'll add chin bone to the list
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl 	And yeah, hell, beards. Angry beard puffing!
  	  	...Oh dear. Now I need a TF2 Spy with a camera beard.
  	  	Look what you've done. >:C
  	Siddean Munro  	I think that'll do for now :)
  	Braydon Randt  	its a bad day ... when selket starts to day dream
15:58 	Angus Mesmer  	Sorry.
  	Finlay MacFanatic  	I only dislike extremely the motorcycle 'ride' animation
  	Geenz Spad  	alright, if that's all, then, shall we move on?
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl 	It's a bad day when the madboy at play starts scheming.
  	  	And the motorcycle ride animation is... abysmal. Not even centered. ;)
  	Siddean Munro  	toes, fingers, tail, ponytail and chin. Just compiling for the minutes :)
  	  	ready to move on?
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl 	Fingers, toes, tail, ponytail, chin. Perhaps two additional hairbones or headpiece bones.
15:59 	  	Imagine jester's hats, or pigtails.
  	Geenz Spad  	eeehh
  	  	that would go more into custom skeleton territory I think
  	Braydon Randt  	please. ... mvoe o
  	Geenz Spad  	anyways
  	Braydon Randt  	please * sobs*
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl 	Mind you, if I keep disrupting things, I'll need a jester's hat of my own.
  	Geenz Spad  	Cloth Simulation (VWR-27189 - Cloth simulation) (continued from July 17, 2012's meeting) (Paola Tauber)
  	  	there isn't much to add to this conversation that isn't really technical at this point
16:00 	Anouk Spot  	that would be a beautiful dream come true if it happens
  	Braydon Randt  	i would like to know if any of these proposals or ideas .... have a REAL place on the table , or are we meating like kids at a santas grota with our wish lists ?
  	Asha  	How realistic is having cloth simulation in SL?
16:01 	Geenz Spad  	oh some of these do have a real place on the table, it's more a matter of when most of the time
  	  	anyways, cloth could happen, it just depends on how much control people want over it
  	  	if they just want a simple set of parameters, then that'd be trivial to add; if they want to paint how much of a mesh has cloth simulation applied, that'd take a bit more work
16:02 	woozl Selkit T. Woozl 	I'd be all for having a weightmap, but... yeah. ;)
  	Geenz Spad  	we have a little over 10 more minutes left
  	Typhaon Nishi  	if some of the features that we've discussed so far are implemented such as the deformer/ morph targets, is it likely that they could have an effect on the possibility of having something like cloth simulation in the future?
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl 	Simply defining flexible properties for a mesh along the lines of current flexiprims, would be shiny.
  	Geenz Spad  	in the future, possibly
  	  	as predefined morphs for cloth that have the simulation baked in
16:03 	  	would help performance certainly
  	Oz Linden  	"likely that they could have an effect on the possibility of having something like " .... hmmm....
  	Geenz Spad  	there's a lot of things that morph targets could do, but regardless, moving on not unless someone has ideas regarding cloth simulation workflow?
16:04 	Oz Linden  	I'm not sure what a positive response to that question would mean. Everything we do affects everything we might do in the future
  	Typhaon Nishi  	well I mean if say in the future cloth simulation is a possibility but something tahts already implemented prevents that from happening
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl 	I can think of two options for cloth simulation maps, but one would add bandwidth, the other would preclude other options, and... it's probably not the best topic for now. ;)
16:05 	Geenz Spad  	I wouldn't worry too much about something getting in the way of cloth simulation
  	Typhaon Nishi  	ok :)
  	Angus Mesmer  	Some would say bumpmaps before cloth simulation.
  	Geenz Spad  	which (kind of) brings us to our next topic:
  	  	What are the chances of adding AO/dirt map support if a material project is accepted? Ashasekayi Ra 23:19, 22 July 2012 (PDT)
  	  	first question: couldn't you bake these into your diffuse texture?
  	Braydon Randt  	YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! a Materials question
16:06 	Asha  	You can but...
  	Geenz Spad  	second question: what would be the overall use I'm overlooking?
  	Oz Linden  	What is "AO/dirt map" ?
  	Braydon Randt  	O.o
  	Geenz Spad  	an AO map is an Ambient Occlusion map
  	  	it stores an approximation of ambient lighting
16:07 	Finlay MacFanatic  	wrinkle picture
  	Oz Linden  	as opposed to Animation Overrider... I was pretty sure that wasn't it
  	Braydon Randt  	its actually created when one object creates shade by being in contact of close proximity with another
  	Geenz Spad  	wherein objects that are blocking a sort of hemisphere cast soft shadows onto other objects consistently
  	Asha  	It would be nice to give the end user the ability to add their own small, seamless textures to an item while retaining the AO effect. Secondly, a designer can use much smaller maps and still retain visual crispness. Instead of a 1024 by 1024 map, I could used a 256 by 256 AO map and a 64 by 64 tile for example.
16:08 	  	*use
  	Geenz Spad  	hm
  	Elie Spot  	that would be awesome
  	Braydon Randt  	the general texture stack .... consistes of Defuse, Normal, Specular, Ao and dirt
  	Geenz Spad  	well, for now I'll say "no", primarily because that's something that would fit into an overall much more flexible pipeline that would likely be years down the road
16:09 	Angus Mesmer  	in a world without alpha conflicts
  	Braydon Randt  	so ..; no to materials ... but lets spend 2 weeks talkinbg about bones O.o .. niiiice
  	Geenz Spad  	in terms of "immediate" options, it could be possible, and I'm not making a promise here so please do not take it as such
  	Oz Linden  	just to complete my ignorance... what's the "dirt" part?
  	Asha  	What does alpha conflicts have to do with it?
  	Geenz Spad  	same idea Oz, just different terminology
  	Oz Linden  	k
16:10 	Siddean Munro  	SL does have AO in the advanced lighting already
  	Geenz Spad  	it could be possible whenever some magical possible maybe coming around by year's end solution could allow one to "select" what a texture's alpha map does, but I can't make any promises here one way or another
16:11 	Braydon Randt  	yet ... we disgussed at leanth last week maxes gradients ideas ?
  	Siddean Munro  	Braydon, it's not helpful :)
  	  	we're getting to materials
  	Braydon Randt  	forgive my frustration ....
  	Geenz Spad  	there really isn't much to discuss about materials as of yet, and as I believe I've said previously, a proposal has been submitted, and I'll give you guys more news the moment I'm able to
  	Asha  	Yes, but that AO doesn't take away from the need of extra diffuse definition. Not to mention, everyone can turn on AO in the viewer.
  	Geenz Spad  	which includes if LL ever says no to materials :p
  	Asha  	*can't
16:13 	Geenz Spad  	so, next topic
  	  	The .dae schematic supports vertex colors. Would it be possible for a material/shader in SL to recognize vertex color assignments? If so, would it be possible to have a vertex color shader that lets you pick a blend mode, such as multiply or add? Ashasekayi Ra 23:19, 22 July 2012 (PDT)
  	  	this would be neat for something like light mapping
  	  	well, per-vertex lightmapping
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl 	:D
16:14 	Geenz Spad  	I'd say it could be possible in the future, but we'll see
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl 	I can see other uses for vertex-color data reads, particularly touching back on the notion of greater diffuse definition.
  	  	But I believe that ties into materials, again.
16:15 	Asha  	Yes exactly Selkit...that and lower grade lightmapping.
[16:15] Oz LindenOz Linden has to go up to dinner with the wife...
  	sachi Vixen  	Enjoy your meal Oz
  	Geenz Spad  	on that note, it's probably a good idea to wrap things up
  	Siddean Munro  	Cheers Oz!
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl 	Way I figure it, we have vertex color data as an inbuilt feature, I see no reason not to keep options for using it open.
[16:15] Finlay MacFanaticFinlay MacFanatic waves..
16:16 	Typhaon Nishi  	thanks for coming Oz :)
  	Asha  	It would be great if it was an option.
16:17 	Elie Spot  	i'll take this opportunity to be extremely rude and add a topic that I didn't submit.. shift selecting multiple inventory items to edit their properties all at once!
  	  	(yes i'll bring it up next week xD)
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl 	Elie?
  	  	I could kiss you.
  	Elie Spot  	hahaha
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl 	We need that rather badly.
  	Typhaon Nishi  	not a bad idea
  	Siddean Munro  	Yep!
  	  	pop it in the agenda pls pls!
  	Geenz Spad  	once I know more about materials, I'll be sure to share :) and although I can't confirm if or when they are coming, I can say that a proposal has been submitted, and there's a good chance you will all see some news on it in the coming months
  	Elie Spot  	will do!
  	Geenz Spad  	in otherwords, stay tuned everyone!
  	Elie Spot  	thats awesome geenz thanks!
16:18 	sachi Vixen  	I want one of those Elie
  	Elie Spot  	is this topic more suitable for a jira?
  	  	the mass edit properties?
  	Geenz Spad  	probably
16:19 	Elie Spot  	ok i'll make a jira, and link to it on the agenda for next week then
  	Geenz Spad  	anyways, that's all for today's meeting, thank you everyone for coming!
  	Typhaon Nishi  	cheers :)
16:20 	woozl Selkit T. Woozl 	Cheers, boys, girls, and ephemeral clouds of particles
  	Anouk Spot  	have a good day all!
  	Siddean Munro  	Thanks Geenz and all who came along :)