Doc Team/2010-09-15

== Transcript ==
[12:59]	:	Ah, the first Linden has arrived.
[12:59]	:	Always wanted a space related avatar.
[12:59]	:	Nah, there were plenty of Lindens before me.
[12:59]	 	has pinged you.
[13:00]	:	Hey Jeremy.
[13:00]	 	has pinged you.
[13:00]	:	Hi Jeremy Linden
[13:00]	:	Hello!
[13:00]	:	I mean, the first to arrive at this meeting
[13:00]	:	May I have a Linden Bear, Jeremy?
[13:00]	 	has pinged you.
[13:00]	:	Sure!
[13:00]	:	:)
[13:01]	:	Items successfully shared.
[13:01]	:	ty
[13:01]	:	you know what, I don't think I've yet gotten a Jeremy Linden bear, either. :D
[13:01]	 	has pinged you.
[13:01]	:	please, pretty please... :D
[13:01]	:	ah, ty
[13:01]	:	Well, now you have :-)
[13:01]	:	yup
[13:01]	:	/me smiles.
[13:01]	:	Jeremy, do you know when Jon and Torley will arrive at these office hours? I know Kate left a few months back.
[13:01]	 	has pinged you.
[13:02]	:	I guess whiule I'm thinking about it, I should ask whatever other lindens arrive today for a bear.
[13:02]	:	Heh. Jon seems consistently too busy to come here, and Torley has said that he may stop in from time to time, but I don't know when.
[13:02]	:	So I guess you guys are stuck with me! :-)
[13:02]	:	/me giggles
[13:03]	:	oh ok
[13:03]	:	ok, thanks just wondering..*grins*.
[13:03]	:	There's always faux-Jon there, but I don't think he's got a bear.
[13:03]	:	If I ever became a Linde, I wonder what my bear would be like.
[13:03]	:	so, Torley posted some shortcuts for different ways to do something not long ago
[13:04]	:	*Linden
[13:04]	:	I think I saw that blog post come up, Elite3000.
[13:04]	:	Though I haven't had a chance to read/watch it yet!
[13:04]	:	oh ok
[13:04]	:	Just been at Borrowdale with Nyx Linden office hours - everyone is talking about SL Mesh Upload annoucement/updates.
[13:05]	:	/me giggles
[13:05]	:	Oh, I'll bet EVERY OH will be abuzz about Mesh importing.
[13:05]	:	Mesh?
[13:05]	:	Ah, yes! I'm excited to see how mesh will ultimately affect Sl.
[13:05]	:	er, Second Life!
[13:05]	:	Is that something new?
[13:05]	:	its big news at the moment - I'm excited.
[13:05]	:	I'm excited also!
[13:05]	:	Mesh is basically like a super-sculpty that's easier to render and easier to import
[13:06]	:	yeah
[13:06]	:	its been in the works for years lol
[13:06]	:	even vechicles can be made up of mesh?
[13:06]	:	]And, it's ABOUT to go into public beta in 2 weeks.
[13:06]	:	yay
[13:06]	:	or, to be more accurate, there'll be another ANNOUCNEMENT about the details of it going public beta.... in 2 weeks
[13:07]	:	I think so, Elite3000, but keep in mind that meshes will have a sort of "prim equivalent" to figure out how many prims they would count as.
[13:07]	:	ok
[13:07]	:	are clothes going to follow the movements of the avatar with meshes ?
[13:07]	:	yup
[13:07]	:	Anyone who is in the private beta probably knows more than I do about the subject :-)
[13:08]	:	is there a SL wiki page yet on SL Mesh?
[13:08]	:	One thing that comes out of it that I'm really waiting to see, tho: we'll be getting better avatar meshes.... such as furries that don't need prim attachments to form them, just a furry-shaped base mesh.
[13:08]	:	no one has a ticket to give for the private beta. I don't want to wait two weeks :)
[13:08]	:	Not yet, but we're getting some wiki docs ready, Daniel. I wrote some for a public beta that didn't happen back in May, and we've got a contractor updating them now.
[13:08]	:	So Mesh has its advantages?
[13:09]	:	yup
[13:09]	:	thats great Jeremy
[13:09]	 	has pinged you.
[13:09]	:	Me, I'm figuring that now that Mesh is officially arriving, we'll see the OpenSim equivalent coming RSN, too.
[13:10]	:	So, with all of that, do we need a special viewer for that?
[13:10]	:	I imagine that the official viewer will support Mesh, once it goes live.
[13:10]	:	Will the 1.2x viewrs show Mesh objects?
[13:10]	:	or viewer 2.2?
[13:11]	:	Course, considering that 1.2x viewr support is supposed to be dropped RSN, I'm guessing that's all moot anyway.
[13:11]	:	That's an excellent question, actually... I'm not sure!
[13:11]	:	IIRC, that is
[13:11]	:	Lemme try and grab one of the mesh team guys to see if they can't answer these questions a bit better :-)
[13:11]	:	Greetings :)
[13:12]	:	kk
[13:12]	:	Hi Aki.
[13:12]	:	Yes, do grab one of them. Kicking and screaming if you have to. Muahahaha!
[13:12]	:	Though, if you guys came from Nyx's office hours, I don't know what more I'll be able to say :-P
[13:12]	:	Hi Jeremy
[13:12]	 	has pinged you.
[13:12]	:	what was the question?
[13:12]	:	The question on the table is whether older viewer will support the viewing of mesh objects.
[13:12]	:	about Mesh imports, the nature of viewer support for them, etc
[13:13]	:	i doubt it.
[13:13]	:	yeah, what Jeremy said
[13:13]	 	has pinged you.
[13:13]	:	Hmm I have this "[12:23] Nyx Linden: we're not backporting to 1.23"
[13:13]	:	motherfucking idiots
[13:13]	:	ah
[13:13]	:	So it will be toward viewer 2
[13:13]	:	Pierpaolo, feel free to voice your opinion, but I'm going to have to ask you to do it civilly.
[13:13]	:	There is a lot of functionality that is specific to Viewer 2, from what i've seen.
[13:13]	:	Well, IIRC, somewhere recently it was announced that support for the pre-2.0 viewrs was going to be dropped by years end anyway.... or do I misremember that?
[13:14]	:	Good thing I have viewer 2.1
[13:14]	:	I'm waiting for the Phoenix 2.1-supporting viewr.
[13:14]	:	I don't know for sure, Nathan. This is one of those cases where I'm not 100% sure of something, and if I give the wrong answer bad things can happen :-)
[13:15]	:	/me nods nods nods
[13:15]	:	/me nods
[13:15]	:	Here we go! I'm importing Vir to help out with some of these questions.
[13:15]	:	kewl kewl
[13:15]	:	Hi Vir
[13:16]	:	Hey Vir.
[13:16]	:	Hi all.
[13:16]	:	Hi Vir Linden
[13:16]	:	Hello Vir Linden. Can I have a bear, while I'm thinking about it? :D
[13:16]	:	neat av, btw
[13:16]	:	May I have a bear, Vir?
[13:16]	:	Sorry, I still don't have one. I'm lame :-(
[13:16]	:	oh
[13:16]	:	oh, darn.
[13:16]	:	:-
[13:16]	:	Cool avatar by the way Vir. :D
[13:17]	:	Thanks.
[13:17]	:	Well, if it was in the style of that av, it'd be really nifty. :D
[13:17]	:	So, vir, will viewer 2.x support mesh?
[13:17]	:	Yes, for some value of x...
[13:17]	:	I'm just a wind-up toy av :p
[13:17]	:	Oh, yours is kewl, too. Daniel. :D
[13:18]	:	Next step for mesh is to have an open beta on a dev grid
[13:18]	:	hopefully soon but all scheduling is TBD
[13:18]	:	ok
[13:18]	:	Should mesh be supported on viewer 2.2 or newer viewers?
[13:19]	:	Yeah, next Big Announcewment vis a vis Mesh is supposed to be..... what, 2 weeks?
[13:19]	:	announcement coming in 2 weeks, I mean
[13:19]	:	Yup, 2 weeks is the plan.
[13:19]	:	Anything for viewer 1 or just viewer 2 this effects?
[13:19]	:	Mesh will require a new viewer release when it comes out
[13:20]	:	Hopefully viewer 2?
[13:20]	:	2.2
[13:20]	:	Will upgrading from 1.23 to 2.x be manditory at that point?
[13:20]	:	2.3 m,aybe?
[13:20]	:	Don't know yet, depends on how long we spend in beta.
[13:21]	:	I seem to recall having read somewhere a Linden stating that 1.23-style viewers would not be supported anymore in a few months anyway....
[13:21]	:	will the dresses and other outfits follow the movements of the avatar with meshes ?
[13:21]	:	Nathan: well not supported... but that's a bit different than blocking out 1.23 viewers from accessing the grid entirely.
[13:21]	:	Decision on when/whether 1.23 would be obsoleted is separate from mesh as far as I know - haven't heard anything about it.
[13:22]	:	Well, yeah.... but it DOES mean that making 1.23-era viewrs do Mesh is.... moot....
[13:22]	:	Right, not supported would mean you can't see meshes properly, not that you can't log in.
[13:22]	:	So would viewer 2.x be mandatory?
[13:22]	:	by the end of 2010?
[13:23]	:	I've noticed many people have anxiety about using 2.x... recent screencaps out of Snowstorm seem promising though.
[13:23]	:	I haven't heard anything about mandatory 2.x - don't think there's any decision.
[13:23]	:	oh
[13:24]	:	Heck, I'm waiting on the developers of my TPV of choice to come out with their 2.x-supporting viewer before I go to 2.x-land.
[13:24]	:	Re: clothing, the way it works now is that mesh avs are attachments. You make your regular av invisible and just show the attachment.
[13:25]	:	So regular clothing wouldn't show up, but you could make attachment clothing that would.
[13:25]	:	And then later, the mesh av would be.... an actual av of and to itself?
[13:25]	:	Of course, technology may change, that's just describing what we have now.
[13:26]	:	it would be wonderful to have some fixed standard av meshes
[13:26]	:	That's a good idea.
[13:26]	:	I HAD read that the earliest mesh-import-based avs would be built around the existing av.... er... skeleton rigging..... meaning, you couldn't devise a custom rigging for your mesh av..... but that that WOULD be coming.
[13:27]	:	Right, the current ones are based on the existing rigging.
[13:27]	:	What WOULD be nifty would be if you could take your existing human av mesh, run it through a converter to turn it into the new mesh av system, and expand the details a bit....
[13:27]	:	Roadmap for future releases is still very much under construction.
[13:28]	:	oh
[13:28]	:	Uh oh. Someone found my bear.
[13:28]	:	Nathan, you mean export to an external tool so you could tweak it there?
[13:28]	:	Or something in-world?
[13:28]	:	Which is to say, I'd love to keep my current shape, but go to something with more detail/accuracy-to-human-form.
[13:29]	:	hang on phone
[13:29]	:	Some improvements would also require changing the rigging, though - beyond just surface detail.
[13:29]	:	Well, in world, or exterior to the world, I don't care so long as It Just Works. :D
[13:29]	:	Heh.
[13:29]	:	back
[13:30]	:	Well, yeah, the extra rigging options would be another reason I;'d want to convert my shape over....
[13:30]	:	Say, I I wanted to add an articulated neko-tail, or big flappy ears.... not that that would fit my style, but you get the point
[13:31]	:	but have the tail and/or flappy easr be part of the base mesh of the av, and able to themsleves move and flex and stuff at my whim and control
[13:31]	:	Right, extending the rigging would give us lots of cool options.
[13:31]	:	*if I wanted
[13:33]	:	By the way, thanks so much for coming and answering these questions, Vir. This is very much outside our usual realm of discussion, but we clearly have a lot of curious people this week :-)
[13:33]	:	Hi Lego
[13:33]	:	/me agrees. Thanks Vir :)
[13:34]	:	Greetings Lego
[13:34]	:	hi guys
[13:34]	:	Oh, no problem. We're all glad to have a chance to talk about mesh.
[13:34]	:	Hi Lego.
[13:34]	:	Brb
[13:34]	:	Prolly been burstinhg at the seams to tell us all somthing for months, eh? :D
[13:35]	:	Heck, some of the people who show up to this office hour have been busting to say something for months :-P
[13:35]	:	It's been under wraps for quite a while.
[13:35]	:	Yup, exasperateingly so. ã‹¡
[13:35]	:	Well, I gotta get going. See ya
[13:35]	:	Take care.
[13:35]	:	l8r Elite
[13:35]	:	Thanks for coming, Elite3000.
[13:36]	:	Any more questions about Mesh? The universe? Everything?
[13:37]	:	Hey Youri
[13:37]	:	OMG!!! I got in without too much lagg!!!!
[13:37]	:	Or, uh, the wiki. Usual stuff!
[13:37]	:	(on laptop and wireless, so i can not see much atm :p )
[13:37]	:	Welcome back, Youri.
[13:37]	:	hey all btw :)
[13:37]	:	tnx jeremy :)
[13:37]	 	has pinged you.
[13:37]	:	Hi there Youri
[13:37]	:	heya vir :) nice to meet ya
[13:37]	:	Our special guest this week is Vir, who has kindly volunteered to answer questions regarding Mesh.
[13:38]	:	could you bring me up to speed?
[13:38]	:	oh.. i had a question i forgot to ask at the Mesh office hours... do you mind if i ask it here?
[13:38]	:	will the work on Blender be the same than when doing sculpted prims ?
[13:38]	:	Sure, go for it, Aki.
[13:39]	:	I have noticed that smoothed rigged meshes don't appear with deferred lighting enabled. Is that a known bug or is it intentional?
[13:40]	:	Don't know, sounds like a bug.
[13:40]	:	Laurent, as I understand it, meshes will use the COLLADA format. It's quite a bit different fromt sculpt maps, but I'm not sure how different the 3D modeling practices will be.
[13:40]	:	i see
[13:40]	:	Work on blender would be a different workflow.
[13:40]	:	Lots of 3D modelers can export collada files, so you would have quite a few options.
[13:41]	:	shade, could you hide your genitals please? :)
[13:41]	:	Nnnnnnnuts! Phoenix suddenly crashed out from under me! oO
[13:41]	:	/me covers his eyes.
[13:41]	:	most people who have been using modelling programs to make sculpties shouldn't find much difficulty modelling meshes. The main stumbling point for me has been learning UV unwraps.
[13:41]	:	i apologize for that
[13:41]	:	lol, nw
[13:42]	:	Yeah, the intention is that modeling with meshes would actually be easier then sculpties.
[13:42]	:	but I'm sure it depends on what you're used to.
[13:42]	:	wasn't nix also working on meshes?
[13:43]	:	Yes, Nyx has been - think his office hours were earlier today.
[13:43]	:	yeah, his OH is before this one
[13:43]	:	what is this place
[13:43]	:	like my pegasis
[13:43]	:	Nyx's office hour is right before this one, I think!
[13:43]	:	already was fearing he might have gotten the boot as well
[13:43]	:	lol
[13:44]	:	:(
[13:44]	:	feet?
[13:44]	:	so from what I understand, you do objects in Blender the same way as usual and the main difference is in the export to Collada instead of doing sculpt maps
[13:44]	:	i meant getting fired ;)
[13:44]	:	"the boot" meaning "kicked out the door". He's still ehre.
[13:44]	:	er, here.
[13:44]	:	like so many other famous lindens
[13:44]	:	correct jeremy :)
[13:44]	 	has pinged you.
[13:45]	:	Laurent: sort of. Sculpts i would say are sort of like um... playing around with a set amount of chicken-wire, while making something with papier mache
[13:45]	:	but with meshes you can add and subtract
[13:45]	:	We have a decent size team working on mesh now, including runitai and nyx.
[13:45]	:	havnt had the pleasure to meet runitai
[13:45]	:	you can make holes in things, or extend parts that you want more of
[13:45]	:	Hey Vir my brother in real Life goes on teen grid his name is Legoman Karu anyway i am wondering if we can a security Group on SL would that work.
[13:46]	:	havnt been on SL for about a month though.. (if not longer)
[13:46]	:	add or substract vertices ?
[13:46]	:	right.
[13:46]	:	hello boys
[13:46]	:	Lego, we've been over this. I'm sorry, but Linden Lab cannot support or run a "security" group.
[13:46]	:	hmm ok
[13:46]	:	i sorry
[13:47]	:	Vir, could you poke the rest of the team for new attachement points (like a tail) and new skeletons? that would really be helping
[13:47]	:	No worries.
[13:47]	:	It's definitely something we're interested in, but not likely in the near term.
[13:47]	:	I'll mention it.
[13:48]	:	/me wonders if he WANTS to know what sort of "security group" that boy wants.
[13:48]	:	please do, nyx rather keeps off the boat on that one for some time now :(
[13:48]	:	Unfortunately there's always more cool stuff to do than time to do it.
[13:48]	:	Yikes! Got people sitting in my lap.
[13:48]	:	!
[13:48]	:	my concern with additional attachments is the potential for added load viewer side
[13:48]	:	stop complaining jeremy, they just like you that much ;)
[13:48]	 	has pinged you.
[13:48]	:	haha
[13:49]	:	i also wonder which my brother is 16 and with a grid merge Vir did you mean my security idea
[13:49]	:	hey jeremy mind if i sit with you
[13:49]	 	has pinged you.
[13:49]	:	though there are certainly some points along the avatar that could use attachments.
[13:49]	:	comeing up how will he get here
[13:49]	:	That's fine lila, though I would ask you to please not sit ON me :-P
[13:50]	:	I have a wish for the viewer : temporary textures upload. It's in snowstorm, but I don't know if it is accepted
[13:50]	:	Sort of like that. That's sitting on me. Just sayin'
[13:50]	:	i like you
[13:50]	:	kinda akward jeremy but ok
[13:50]	 	has pinged you.
[13:50]	:	How will Teens get here
[13:50]	:	i like you jeremy
[13:50]	 	has pinged you.
[13:50]	:	/me giggles
[13:51]	:	ouch< she ran off tje building
[13:51]	:	,*
[13:51]	:	Lego, your brother should continue to watch the blogs for more information on the TSL move. I also hold office hours in Meiji West (in TSL) on Thursdays at 2pm
[13:52]	:	IIRC, Teen Grid residents' accounts will simply get converted over to being Main Grid accounts.
[13:52]	:	you do? omg, thats new to me :o
[13:52]	:	How will they move everyone do you know
[13:53]	:	@nathan, unfortunately yeah, more smartass kiddies on main grid... if we didnt have enough problems with the griefers yet :(
[13:53]	:	there are some good ones between them of course!
[13:53]	:	I wonder what the younger TG residents, when/if they get brought over., will make of kid-avs like me.
[13:54]	:	i wouldnt be surpised at all
[13:54]	:	Heh. Interesting concept, Nathan.
[13:54]	:	I transferred over from the TG in December 2008. Back in the old days. :p
[13:54]	:	and dont forget the predators trying to get something from them.... :(
[13:55]	:	yeah, that is a point.
[13:55]	:	enough on the grid already bothering adults....
[13:55]	:	if you get my point
[13:55]	:	"May you live in interesting times," says the old Chinese proverb.....
[13:55]	:	You have been online for 1 hours.
[13:55]	:	Actually, old Chinese *curse* I should say
[13:56]	:	youri: you're right, adults are bothering
[13:56]	:	not sure if i get what you mean laurent?
[13:56]	:	/me feels old. =_=
[13:56]	:	How will they move everyone do you know jeremy
[13:56]	 	has pinged you.
[13:56]	:	I have some snapshots of my time there between 2006-2008 > http://www.flickr.com/photos/danielvoyager/collections/72157603596877318/
[13:56]	:	Irony is, is, some of the so-called adults in-world are less mature than some of the RL teens! Or so I hear.
[13:56]	:	/me taps aki's back, your not that old ;)
[13:56]	:	I'm not sure of the exact method, Lego. I just know that the move will be complete before December 31.
[13:57]	:	yes, about adult areas, I guess, I was just making a stupid joke :)
[13:57]	:	I've heard a rumor that might be moving the younger teens over too in a bit. the 13 14 and 15yos.
[13:57]	:	2011 for us..hmm..
[13:57]	:	nathan, i think you mean adults with a low IQ and showing that they have that...
[13:57]	:	*that they
[13:57]	:	Yeah, that too.
[13:57]	:	monkey behavior...
[13:58]	:	younger teens rumor??? OMG, i sure hope not!
[13:58]	:	I wonder what a REAL 13yo would think, upon bumping into someone RPing being a 13yo.
[13:58]	:	Just move everyone over if you are going to merge the grids. It's not fair on 13-15yrs.
[13:58]	:	I haven't heard anything about the younger teens. Last I heard, the plan was to freeze their accounts and assets until they turn 16, at which time they'll be able to reclaim everything.
[13:58]	:	16/17 yrs olds i can understand, due to the teachers being on maingrid. but what is here on main for younger teens?
[13:59]	:	Dunno, that is a point, I guess
[13:59]	:	Heh. I would have thought SL was awesome when I was 13. I'd probably chill in a sandbox or something.
[13:59]	:	"freeze their accounts" hmm, where are they going to go to?
[14:00]	:	jeremy, good plan. rather have them study as they should. however, it might be a good thing to have some teachers on teengrid that allow them to do studies on the grid. it may show a lot better what things are and how to understand things better
[14:00]	 	has pinged you.
[14:00]	:	Daniel, their accounts will be inaccessible, but nothing will be deleted. All their inventory and information will be preserved.
[14:00]	:	Oh right.
[14:01]	:	for example, the human body in huge form where they can walk around in, much more detailled then a dummy at school
[14:01]	:	Youri, I think I saw a place like that once.
[14:01]	:	wouldnt be suprised jeremy ;)
[14:01]	 	has pinged you.
[14:01]	:	It sounds like one of the places Pathfinder took my office on a tour, maybe a year ago :-)
[14:02]	:	In huge form? Sorta like Godzilla stomping through Tokyo? ONly as a human? :D
[14:02]	:	:)
[14:02]	:	And with voice-guided tours.
[14:02]	:	i seen path some time ago at Qarl's place. we were having a memorial for Qarl sorta
[14:03]	:	Voice guided tours? :D ("And if you look off to the left, you will see Mothra, in her natice environment....")
[14:03]	:	*native
[14:03]	:	Pretty much, Nathan. Only with intestines and stuff.
[14:03]	:	Oh, you'll be walking around IN the giant human, not AS the giant human
[14:04]	:	Inside, I mean
[14:04]	:	correct
[14:04]	:	/me facepalms (=_=)
[14:04]	:	/me giggles
[14:04]	:	Not that I haven't seen giant human avatars, too.
[14:04]	:	could do the same idea with a car for example
[14:04]	:	I ahve too. ã‹¡
[14:04]	:	showing how a car works
[14:04]	:	or pretty much any object or animal you could think of
[14:05]	:	with meshes they will look even better and a lot more detailled
[14:05]	:	Oh! We're past 2pm. I'll cut here for the transcript.
 
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