AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-02

* [9:30] Saijanai Kuhn: alrightythen
* [9:30] Tao Takashi: I see lights!
* [9:30] Gareth Ellison: sai - you're distributing copybot?
* [9:30] Gareth Ellison: :P
* [9:31] Saijanai Kuhn: eh?
* [9:31] Tao Takashi: FYI: 
* [9:32] JayR Cela: hello everyone :_)
* [9:32] Tao Takashi: and Sai, I am not sure I can make Prok happy ;-)
* [9:32] Gareth Ellison: baba was distributing copybot back in the middle of the fiasco
* [9:32] Gareth Ellison: tao - nobody can make prok happy
* [9:32] Gareth Ellison: she apparently uncovered my TP experiments
* [9:32] Tao Takashi: I know, that's why I say it
* [9:32] Gareth Ellison: the same ones i posted about to the gridnauts list
* [9:32] Bartholomew Kleiber: hi all
* [9:33] Tao Takashi: yes, I read that you are a bad guy
* [9:33] Saijanai Kuhn: you were so secretive about it, casually mentioning it at ZEro's office hours and all
* [9:33] Bartholomew Kleiber: ah you are discussing that
* [9:33] Tao Takashi: maybe I should sit a bit more away from you then ;-)
* [9:33] Bartholomew Kleiber: :-)
* [9:33] Tao Takashi: so any news on that front?
* [9:34] Gareth Ellison: apparently agni is one server
* [9:34] Bartholomew Kleiber: I wanted to discuss LiteSim with Gareth but now I better refrain from that ;-)
* [9:34] Gareth Ellison: and i broke into it and stole inventory
* [9:34] Gareth Ellison: i also could spy on everyone's chat
* [9:34] Gareth Ellison: good old paranoid prok
* [9:34] Tao Takashi: checks his inventory
* [9:34] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
* [9:34] Dale Innis: Hello!
* [9:34] Bartholomew Kleiber: Hi Rex
* [9:34] JayR Cela: hi Rex :_)
* [9:34] Tao Takashi: Hi Rex, Dale
* [9:34] Rex Cronon: hii
* [9:35] Tao Takashi: I wanted to think today about how services could be bound together by OAuth and XRDS but of course I didn't make it..
* [9:35] Dale Innis: Do you shower in that thing, Rex?
* [9:35] Tao Takashi: but at least Part 1 of this trust discussion is online
* [9:35] Tao Takashi: although part 2 is probably the more interesting one, when it comes to objects
* [9:35] Gareth Ellison: do we have any kind of solid agenda today?
* [9:35] Rex Cronon: no
* [9:35] Saijanai Kuhn: saying hi to Zha
* [9:35] Dale Innis: :)
* [9:35] Dale Innis: Talking about possible IM poc?
* [9:35] Rex Cronon: but is a pain to take it off and putting it back on:)
* [9:36] Saijanai Kuhn: who is en route to VW2008LA
* [9:36] Dale Innis: grins @ Rex.
* [9:36] Tao Takashi: IM: use IRC or Jabber ;-)
* [9:36] Dale Innis: oh right was Zha not going to make it, then?
* [9:36] Dale Innis: Tao: sure, but I don't think that sovles the whole problem. :)
* [9:36] Tao Takashi: solved my problem before I entered SL ;-)
* [9:36] Saijanai Kuhn: did a google of ero's office hours about that. He says there are many problems with all existing gropu IM solutions
* [9:37] Dale Innis: Yep, but the requirements here are different.
* [9:37] Gareth Ellison: gigs posted something on sldev about using IRC for group chat - an idea which i'd guess multiple others have suggested
* [9:37] Saijanai Kuhn: Zero's office yours. Assume all the rtypos have ben corrected
* [9:37] Gareth Ellison: i'm not convinced that spatial region chat is really related to IM and group chat at all
* [9:37] Gareth Ellison: except in certain odd cases
* [9:37] Dale Innis: I agree Gareth
* [9:37] Saijanai Kuhn: it isnt. It is handled locally by the sim anyway
* [9:37] Tao Takashi: no, I am also just talking about group chat
* [9:37] Dale Innis: I think everyone agrees :)
* [9:37] Dale Innis: So, group chat (and one-to-one IM too).
* [9:37] Saijanai Kuhn: ChatFromSimulator and ChatFromAvatar packets
* [9:37] Tao Takashi: and there I don't see why it cannot be simply #scripters instead of the scripters group
* [9:38] Dale Innis: Is Zha!
* [9:38] Gareth Ellison: sai - it's currently handled by the sim
* [9:38] Saijanai Kuhn: Zha! OMB.
* [9:38] Bartholomew Kleiber: I read in DrScofileds blog that he implemented IRC support in OpenSim which is kinda cool.
* [9:38] Gareth Ellison: but people have been saying that it shouldn't be kept the same on the sim side
* [9:38] Saijanai Kuhn: officially advocates position of cat-herd
* [9:38] Tao Takashi: this is one usecase where I would like to think more about separation of services, not having everything under the AD hood
* [9:38] Tao Takashi: Hey Zha!
* [9:38] Gareth Ellison: wow, zha is here in spirit
* [9:38] Zha Ewry: yawns
* [9:38] Gareth Ellison: zha - when did you ascen?
* [9:38] Dale Innis: Cloud-Zha :)
* [9:38] Gareth Ellison: ascend
* [9:38] Gareth Ellison: all that meditation worked out :)
* [9:38] Zha Ewry: And jet lag
* [9:39] Zha Ewry: Bettter?
* [9:39] Dale Innis: Less cloudy! :)
* [9:40] Gareth Ellison: yay
* [9:40] Zha Ewry: yawns
* [9:40] Tao Takashi: so, Prok already commented on my blog post :)
* [9:40] Tao Takashi: seems, she is not happy
* [9:40] Saijanai Kuhn: link?
* [9:40] Zha Ewry: So.. Did you solve the world's virtual problems while I was gone?
* [9:40] Tao Takashi: 
* [9:40] Dale Innis: Phaps there are two different questions: underlying mechanism (IRC or Jabber or whatever as long as it scales) and trust. How do we make sure that only people in the whatever group can read #whatever?
* [9:40] Dale Innis: How do we prevent identity spoofing? etc.
* [9:40] Gareth Ellison: spoofing in IRC is a solved problem and has been for al ong time
* [9:40] Dale Innis: pats Latha. :)
* [9:40] Saijanai Kuhn: we should make prokofy an honorary member of AWG and link to his blog in its own little session: critique(s)
* [9:41] Gareth Ellison: *long time
* [9:41] Tao Takashi: that's why I wanted to think about OAuth etc. but didn't came to it.. so you register with that service
* [9:41] Dale Innis: But not _in this context_ Gareth. It's the mapping that we still have to do.
* [9:41] Saijanai Kuhn: I've seen people with FIC tags running around
* [9:41] Gareth Ellison: dale - it'd take a week max to code an IRCD that could handle all the mappings
* [9:42] Gareth Ellison: just use UUIDs or full avatar names with some kind of seperator for nicks
* [9:42] Gareth Ellison: 'm fond of UUIDs myself
* [9:42] Tammy Nowotny: well, one thing yoiu can say for Prok,, he does pay attention to what's going on
* [9:42] Dale Innis: Good! Write down how it would work, we can all look at it and say it's great, and you can code it up. :)
* [9:42] Gareth Ellison: then put the name in the real name field
* [9:42] Tao Takashi: no, don't use UUIDs please, use URIs
* [9:42] Tao Takashi: which might contain UUIDs
* [9:42] Gareth Ellison: tao - put the URI in /whois
* [9:42] Movies1963 Beck: she should be grand pooba of the FIC union movement
* [9:42] Zha Ewry: Bare UUIDs ar emoe than alittle painful
* [9:42] Dale Innis: ( see see! :) )
* [9:42] Saijanai Kuhn: each A and RD and avie needs a UUID anyway. SO you could be UUID of UUID @ UUID
* [9:42] Gareth Ellison: zha - URI nicks on IRC?
* [9:42] Saijanai Kuhn: all on a name tag
* [9:42] Tao Takashi: my agents right now have no UUID
* [9:42] Dale Innis: We need to WRITE DOWN a proposed spec in the wiki, so ppl can critique.
* [9:43] Gareth Ellison: you use /whois to get the name
* [9:43] Tao Takashi: just a random one because the protocol needs one
* [9:43] Tao Takashi: but I'd rather think they have a unique id
* [9:43] Tao Takashi: which is an URI
* [9:43] Lillie Yifu: Neva-Palin '08 s that we have a choice that no one likes but no one can stop talking about
* [9:43] Gareth Ellison: i think we need UUIDs regardless, but you can have the URI too
* [9:43] Bartholomew Kleiber: this can be mapped in whatever client app is used
* [9:43] Dale Innis: hahaha
* [9:43] Tao Takashi: nicks are different maybe, these can be obtained by asking for more information
* [9:44] Dale Innis: The viewer is the end client app.
* [9:44] Tao Takashi: and might look like Tao Takashi@syntronik.de
* [9:44] Zha Ewry: I will warn people I am still on the jet lagged side
* [9:44] Gareth Ellison: remember the IRC transport is only for group chat or inter-user IM on the current system, but you could have inter-user IM on some other protocol and only group chat on IRC
* [9:44] Gareth Ellison: hands zha a selection of the contents of her cupboard
* [9:44] Tammy Nowotny: wb Zha
* [9:44] IntLibber Brautigan: well ideally we need to have domains point to grids like grid.intsgrid.com, and gridserver email servers that allow email addys like firstname.lastname@intsgrid.com
* [9:44] Tao Takashi: Zha: we make sure you don't sign the proposed spec just now :)
* [9:44] Movies1963 Beck: Zha that's the price you pay for being a rock star
* [9:44] Gareth Ellison: you know what i keep in there zha ;)
* [9:44] Movies1963 Beck: your right up there with Dee Snider from Twisted Sister
* [9:45] Gareth Ellison: intlibber - why email servers?
* [9:45] Zha Ewry: Chuckle
* [9:45] Zha Ewry: No, no, this was vacation
* [9:45] Zha Ewry: I'll be jet lagged from work tommowrow
* [9:45] IntLibber Brautigan: because a grid or sim needs to be just one more service on an overall webserver
* [9:45] Gareth Ellison: 17:44 <@Gigs> MichelleZ: it would be the way IRC networks are, each network would be a grid
* 17:44 < slck> servers linked with each other
* 17:45 <@Gigs> each sim server could be an IRC server, but that's not necessary
* [9:45] IntLibber Brautigan: we are seeking to migrate ecommerce from 2d to 3d
* [9:45] Lillie Yifu: ugh ruthed on tp
* [9:45] Saijanai Kuhn: though, the service would be to the AD not the grid. The grid needs to stay out of group IM, save as a host of specific groups
* [9:45] Gareth Ellison: we could of course spec up a whole new HTTP-based chat protocol
* [9:46] Gareth Ellison: but pain
* [9:46] IntLibber Brautigan: we need to treat a sim or grid as another service on a server that provides email, mysql, apache etc
* [9:46] Dale Innis: Look fine to me, Lillie :)
* [9:46] Gareth Ellison: the IETF will have all our collective heads
* [9:46] Tao Takashi: there is no grid :)
* [9:46] Zha Ewry: well, if we're truely being REST and sane.. then, yes, grids are nbothign more than collection of closely relate dweb services
* [9:46] Gareth Ellison: zha - looking at absolutely everything through HTTP glasses - is it really needed?
* [9:46] IntLibber Brautigan: hi tess, we haven't been introduced but this is nice
* [9:47] Tao Takashi: I basically would like the AD to be some sort of master server which knows when you are online etc. and does some handshaking and other services being losely grouped around it
* [9:47] Tess Linden: hey IntLibber :)
* [9:47] Dale Innis: was wondering how int gets to sit on Tess's lap! :)
* [9:47] Zha Ewry: Not quite every service
* [9:47] Tess Linden: oh oops
* [9:47] Zha Ewry: In particular, I think there is a case to be made for some small amoutn of stuff to flow on UDP
* [9:47] Zha Ewry: but....
* [9:47] Tao Takashi: maybe those at least which have some representatives in the web world already
* [9:47] Tao Takashi: so we can more easily interop with this part of the internet
* [9:47] Zha Ewry: the vast majority of what we're doing, sure looks like it can be done via a web servcies model
* [9:47] Gareth Ellison: i do believe we should avoid using HTTP in painful ways where it obviously isn't suited
* [9:48] Bartholomew Kleiber: whoever is using voice here should no that this is text only
* [9:48] Dale Innis: I think we should use it even where it obviously isn't suited. :P
* [9:48] Gareth Ellison: dale - oh?
* [9:48] Bartholomew Kleiber: know*
* [9:48] Dale Innis: was kidding.
* [9:48] Tao Takashi: we should look closely into these cases and discuss if it's worth it to invent another protocol
* [9:48] Saijanai Kuhn: what does IRC use anyway?
* [9:48] Tao Takashi: the IRC protocol ;-)
* [9:48] Gareth Ellison: sai - IRC uses TCP links
* [9:49] Gareth Ellison: including the trunk links between servers
* [9:49] Gareth Ellison: if i may do a shameless plug, you could use GMMP instead of IRC
* [9:49] IntLibber Brautigan: agreed Tao, just look at how the rendering pipeline was improved by going to http pathways to transmit textures
* [9:49] Gareth Ellison: has a "Text" message for inter-user talk
* [9:49] Gareth Ellison: and unlike IRC doesn't enforce a strict hiearchy
* [9:49] Saijanai Kuhn: has it actually gone there yet?
* [9:49] Gareth Ellison: so you can do more mesh-like networks
* [9:49] Gareth Ellison: intlibber - it's not there yet
* [9:50] Tao Takashi: the best would be if the group IM part is just some module in the viewer and people can write whatever they want to support
* [9:50] IntLibber Brautigan: um I thought that was implemented like in 2007
* [9:50] Gareth Ellison: except perhaps on the backend
* [9:50] Tao Takashi: but the AD might need some interface which can inform services (which know about it) about avatar details etc.
* [9:50] Gareth Ellison: there's no RequestTextureDownload cap on the agni sims
* [9:50] Gareth Ellison: anyway, downloads are good on HTTP
* [9:50] Gareth Ellison: realtime 2-way discussion amongst groups of users, not so good
* [9:50] Tao Takashi: and if we use IRC it might be nice if you could also connect with a normal IRC client.. this might then look different in an OGP viewer though
* [9:51] Dale Innis: Tao: who would you connect AS?
* [9:51] Gareth Ellison: 17:49 <@Gigs> just tell them they can tunnel IRC through HTTP if they want to be retarded about it
* 17:50 <@Gigs> tell them it's a solution to the wrong problem
* 17:50 <@Gigs> they need to fight crippled "web only" firewall policies
* 17:50 <@Gigs> the internet is more than the web
* [9:51] Tao Takashi: like you might need to show people which are not authenticated by the AD
* [9:51] Gareth Ellison: dale - you login to the IRCD using your avatar ID and password
* [9:51] Gareth Ellison: it's not that complex
* [9:51] Dale Innis: nods.
* [9:51] Gareth Ellison: get a cap with an IRC server address from your agent domain
* [9:51] Dale Innis: Gareth, we really got to get you to write down the design, rather than just chatting it during meetings. :)
* [9:51] Tao Takashi: there is probably a way without caps ;_)
* [9:52] Gareth Ellison: dale - i write it down in neural ink
* [9:52] Tammy Nowotny: is there ant danger of intrenet providers trying to kill off IRC, like they are doing with usenet at the moment (althoiugh usenet is probably not needed for our work. LOL.)
* [9:52] Gareth Ellison: tao - yeah, but you could put it in caps if needed
* [9:52] Saijanai Kuhn: baps Gareth upside the head
* [9:52] Tao Takashi: the AD might have some list of IM services which can be found by doing service discovery
* [9:52] Dale Innis: ( We could do group notices via UUCP! )
* [9:52] Tao Takashi: then the viewer could contact these services and login there. the IM service then might have some OAuthed link to the AD
* [9:52] Bartholomew Kleiber: I would rather use dedicated IRC servers
* [9:52] Gareth Ellison: aren't there already SRV records?
* [9:53] Tao Takashi: as said, I would like to use what the web uses
* [9:53] Gareth Ellison: slaps everyone with the tao of IETF
* [9:53] Tao Takashi: which seems to go the XRDS route
* [9:53] Bartholomew Kleiber: Gareth: +1
* [9:53] Saijanai Kuhn: just wants to implement the current setup using the AD as the relay station. What happens at that point?
* [9:53] Tao Takashi: SRV was also discussed in some blog someday and it seemed that this solution had some flaws
* [9:54] Tao Takashi: but cannot remember anymore
* [9:54] Tao Takashi: needs to bookmark everything
* [9:54] Dale Innis: need to post everything in Wiki! :)
* [9:54] Gareth Ellison: for the group chat question SRV could work just fine
* [9:54] Saijanai Kuhn: write it in neural ink
* [9:54] Tao Takashi: I think it was in the context of email to openid mapping
* [9:54] IntLibber Brautigan: btw I'd like to bring up something people need to think about to improve performance: caching recent sims visited. SL military groups have determined that the main source of lag in their combat operations comes purely from avatars being killed, tpd home, then tping back and having to redownload the whole sim all over again. is there a way we can enable sim caching of recently visited sims? This would obviously improve performance for more uses other than just combat games.
* [9:54] Gareth Ellison: goes to hijack an IRCD dev and try to get the fastest SL client download and login ever
* [9:55] Dale Innis: IntLibber: that sounds like viewer issue? Not really for this group.
* [9:55] Zha Ewry: has anyone actually looked at how IRC scales in the slightly odd scenarios SL presents?
* [9:55] Tao Takashi: SRV records also seem to be hard to maintain as putting up a textfile for service discovery seems easier than contacting your ISP
* [9:55] Tao Takashi: depending on your setup of course
* [9:55] Gareth Ellison: zha - group chats are IRC channels
* [9:55] IntLibber Brautigan: ok thanks dale
* [9:55] Gareth Ellison: 17:53 < slck> 17:51:27 [quakenet
* 17:53 < slck> 17:52:46 [Undernet] There are: 16863 users and 78660 invisible on 29 servers
* [9:55] Tao Takashi: does anybody have numbers of how many people are in the same group online at one point in time?
* [9:56] Zha Ewry: IRC channels do remarkably funky things with large joins and drops
* [9:56] Gareth Ellison: zha - they're called netsplits
* [9:56] Tao Takashi: SL does funky things, too ;-)
* [9:56] Zha Ewry: Yep
* [9:56] Gareth Ellison: solution - IRCv2
* [9:56] Gareth Ellison: or GMMP
* [9:56] Gareth Ellison: spams https://www.litesim.com/svn/libgmmp
* [9:56] Tammy Nowotny: how many on our grid, Gareth? LOL
* [9:56] IntLibber Brautigan: well the biggest groups can have thousands of members, generally 10% online at any time is a good rule of thumb
* [9:56] Zha Ewry: I haven't looked at how IRC would map into our current usage pattern it's pretty different than typical RIC
* [9:56] Saijanai Kuhn: just wants to see normal group IM transfered into AD on a trial basis and see what happens
* [9:56] Gareth Ellison: port 4183 registered with IANA \_/
* [9:57] Gareth Ellison: zha - groups are locked to members only
* [9:57] Dale Innis: So, Sai, can you outline how group IM works now, then we can talk about how it would move into the AD?
* [9:57] Gareth Ellison: user sends their agent domain password as a channel key
* [9:57] Gareth Ellison: it maps so simply
* [9:57] Zha Ewry: Mapping it doesn't mean it will scale, tho
* [9:57] Tao Takashi: it should also be possible to use a channel on a different IRC server though
* [9:57] Saijanai Kuhn: Unforntuately, I con't know nuttin about the serverside of thigns.
* [9:58] JayR Cela: someone has a mic active / turn it off please
* [9:58] Gareth Ellison: zha - it scaleds already
* [9:58] Gareth Ellison: *scales
* [9:58] Gareth Ellison: it's the only currently deployed IM system with a long history that's proven to scale
* [9:58] Bartholomew Kleiber: IntLibber, please deactivate your voice.
* [9:58] IntLibber Brautigan: why?
* [9:58] Dale Innis: It scale in some circumstances; we just have to do the work to make sure it scales in SL's also.
* [9:59] Dale Innis: ( Can't you just turn off yours, Bart? )
* [9:59] Gareth Ellison: dale - different set of users, why would it suddenly not scale?
* [9:59] Bartholomew Kleiber: sure
* [9:59] Dale Innis: Not just different set of users, maybe also different usage pattern. We just have to check, and not assume.
* [9:59] Dale Innis: Good engineering, right?
* [10:00] Gareth Ellison: you could do a big study on it, or you could go with common sense
* [10:00] Dale Innis: I suggest instead a small study. :) "Common sense" leads to bad engineering.
* [10:00] Lillie Yifu: Common sense sides with Murphy
* [10:00] Tao Takashi: that's why I want to make this pluggable, so people can experiment with solutions more easily
* [10:00] Lillie Yifu: ++Tao
* [10:01] Dale Innis: That is, we just need to write downt he erquirements, and make sure that IRC (etc) does in fact satisfy them.
* [10:01] Gareth Ellison: making it pluggable with some kind of default is good
* [10:01] Tao Takashi: which also means not to use a proprietary protocol
* [10:01] Tao Takashi: well, it could be used then
* [10:01] Saijanai Kuhn: which is why I want to see the current system brought into the OGP, even if only on a trial basis. We know what its supposed to do. We know how badly it behves in certain conditions. Can we change that?
* [10:02] Zha Ewry: One of the things we see repeatedly, is that SL doesn't follow normal usage patterns.
* [10:02] Dale Innis: Sounds like a good idea.
* [10:02] Tao Takashi: but is that also true for Group chat?
* [10:02] Gareth Ellison: hands up how many people have been pissed off at the current group chat's random failures and "error messaging" 10 minutes later
* [10:02] Gareth Ellison: puts hand up
* [10:02] Dale Innis: Is there a good description of how group IM works now, on the Wiki or elswhere?
* [10:02] Gareth Ellison: not so much details on how the backend works
* [10:02] Zha Ewry: Oh, we're all aware the current design isborked
* [10:02] Gareth Ellison: group chat is weird
* [10:03] Rex Cronon: bad groupp chat:(
* [10:03] Saijanai Kuhn: just the client-server pcket, but not anyting else that I know of
* [10:03] Gareth Ellison: it's the EventQueue for inbound chat it seems
* [10:03] Dale Innis: Well that's not very helpful. :)
* [10:03] Gareth Ellison: the outbound chat (client>server) is UDP to the sim
* [10:03] Saijanai Kuhn: EventQueue never sends messages Gareth
* [10:03] Gareth Ellison: i recall donovan linden commented that they were porting it to be all pure CAPS eventually
* [10:04] Saijanai Kuhn: and it doesn't recieve chat messages either, last time I looked
* [10:04] Gareth Ellison: since he's a linden no more i don't know what's happened with that
* [10:04] Gareth Ellison: tess - can you comment?
* [10:04] Tao Takashi: maybe LL could quickly hack some IRC gateway together and test it on agni for a day next week to see how it scales? :)
* [10:04] Dale Innis: Good idea!!
* [10:04] Gareth Ellison: i don't think they'd want testing on agni, trust me on that one ;)
* [10:04] Dale Innis: ( that was a joke :) )
* [10:04] Lillie Yifu: arditi would work
* [10:05] Tao Takashi: but the scaling issue would be missing there
* [10:05] Saijanai Kuhn: Tao, we could whip up thousands of python chat bots
* [10:05] Lillie Yifu: Some bots would provide a borkable scaling test
* [10:05] Tess Linden: the event queue is also used via the CAPS system
* [10:05] Gareth Ellison: sai - where would they run?
* [10:06] Gareth Ellison: you'd need to run them on distributed hosts across the internet
* [10:06] Tess Linden: so I'm not sure how you can replace the event queue with an all CAPS system
* [10:06] Bartholomew Kleiber: is the 'scaling issue' really tecnical one?
* [10:06] Bartholomew Kleiber: what if hundreds of user talk into grou chat in 10 seconds?
* [10:06] Saijanai Kuhn: in the AD...
* [10:06] Zha Ewry: That's pretty much the definition of the use case you want to handle
* [10:06] Bartholomew Kleiber: darn keys ..
* [10:07] Saijanai Kuhn: simes aren't the issue with group IM, unless the sim is the host for a specific chat server
* [10:07] Dale Innis: Yep, you need to not crash when that happens.
* [10:07] Zha Ewry: glances at Dale.
* [10:07] Saijanai Kuhn: with OGP its all AD-side
* [10:07] Zha Ewry: "Tha's one way to ensure you scale"
* [10:07] Dale Innis: By not crashing? :)
* [10:07] Zha Ewry: No
* [10:07] Tess Linden: thinks you should never have more than enough people in the chat room as would fit in a regular room
* [10:07] Zha Ewry: By crashing
* [10:07] Bartholomew Kleiber: To me, a group chat is totally redundant to an IRC channel, functionality wise.
* [10:07] Dale Innis: ohhhhh :)
* [10:08] Bartholomew Kleiber: @tess: right
* [10:08] Zha Ewry: Chat rooms vary, a lot, in use cases
* [10:08] Tammy Nowotny: back
* [10:08] Saijanai Kuhn: so much for listening in
* [10:08] Lillie Yifu: What would it take to make group IM pluggable
* [10:08] Bartholomew Kleiber: group chat just doesnt make ny sense anymore then.
* [10:08] Zha Ewry: we have.. some, which are announce popes
* [10:08] Gareth Ellison: if anybody thinks IRC can't handle 100s of spammers, they've never visited a larger channel
* [10:08] Lillie Yifu: since there are large numbers of group IM systems in the world, and different people would want to use different ones.
* [10:08] Lillie Yifu: IRC would be a good test case.
* [10:08] Dale Innis: Tess, really?? Don't understand that "Should", unless you were kidding. :)
* [10:09] Bartholomew Kleiber: GaretH. right, that why I think its not a technical issue.
* [10:09] Bartholomew Kleiber: rather just not making sense to have that numbers.
* [10:09] Gareth Ellison: there's channels where you join them and get a practical DDoS against yourselfif it's not throttled
* [10:09] Dale Innis: There's SL groups like that too. :)
* [10:09] Gareth Ellison: :)
* [10:10] Bartholomew Kleiber: also - as I said DrScofield already implemented an IRC gateway in OpenSim for testing purposes.
* [10:10] Gareth Ellison: that IRC gateway wasn't group chat
* [10:10] Bartholomew Kleiber: While they want to go XMPP in general.
* [10:10] Bartholomew Kleiber: no, it wasnt
* [10:11] JayR Cela: doesn't jabber work cross platform ?
* [10:11] Bartholomew Kleiber: sure
* [10:11] Zha Ewry: Well the use cases include things like
* [10:11] JayR Cela: if so why not just use that as a plug-in
* [10:11] Zha Ewry: Live Music Events.. which.. is huge numbers of listeners
* [10:11] Zha Ewry: low number of messgaes
* [10:12] Bartholomew Kleiber: if you make sure that they are just listeners, everything will be fine.
* [10:12] Saijanai Kuhn: H3ey Graph. We're discussiong scalbility of group IM
* [10:12] Gareth Ellison: live music you say?
* [10:12] Zha Ewry: and things like metanomics, which is a small set of live listeners, and a large number of speakers
* [10:12] Graph Weymann: hello, actually here now
* [10:12] Tao Takashi: as for IRC you usually have this huge base of people idling.. but they are still in the room because of sometimes a good topic pops up they engage in the discussion
* [10:12] Gareth Ellison: notes something with live music - it works way better with voice chat
* [10:12] Dale Innis: would like to point out again that "use IRC" or "use Jabber" still leaves alot to be worked out and verified.
* [10:12] JayR Cela: ok who is the idiot with the live mic?
* [10:12] Latha Serevi: I'm wondering, if we have a pluggable IRC-or-other group chat service ... how we would use the service in OGP-land. Do you auto-join all group chats when you login? Is group membership a capability held by the client or by the AD?
* [10:12] Tammy Nowotny: who is playing metallica in here?
* [10:12] Saijanai Kuhn: thanks
* [10:12] Gareth Ellison: that idiot would have been me
* [10:12] Dale Innis: Live music totally bites with voice chat!
* [10:12] Gareth Ellison: and it wasn't metallica
* [10:12] Tao Takashi: of course all this also depends largely on controls you have to mute stuff, highlight words etc.
* [10:12] Gareth Ellison: dale - quality wise, yes
* [10:12] Bartholomew Kleiber: thx to dale I turned voice off
* [10:13] Tammy Nowotny: I stand corrected
* [10:13] Tao Takashi: Latha: the AD could store a list of groups you joined for you
* [10:13] Dale Innis: I mean, it interfres with the music....
* [10:13] Tao Takashi: or the client can store it but the AD can help with making it accessible from different places
* [10:13] Gareth Ellison: dale - i meant broadcasting music via voice chat
* [10:13] Dale Innis: ooohhhhhhh
* [10:13] Tao Takashi: it could even be Mozilla Weave which does the storing :)
* [10:13] Dale Innis: ( k, sort of offtopic then :) )
* [10:13] Gareth Ellison: if i turn this on again, you can all listen and i don't have to pay the bandwidth bill
* [10:14] Tammy Nowotny: the range of voice is pretty low at the moment
* [10:14] Gareth Ellison: like now ;)
* [10:14] Saijanai Kuhn: Gareth, please don't
* [10:14] Tammy Nowotny: like I can barely even hear Gareth
* [10:14] Dale Innis: has voice turned off, as usual. :)
* [10:14] Gareth Ellison: sorry, couldn't help it
* [10:14] JayR Cela: Gareth / yes but it sounds awefull / the quality is really bad
* [10:14] Tao Takashi: has everything turned off and is in fact using SL more like IRC with just the chat window open ;-)
* [10:14] Dale Innis: ANYWAY! :)
* [10:14] Movies1963 Beck: and that music sucks
* [10:14] Gareth Ellison: JayR - only due to choice of codec
* [10:14] Tammy Nowotny: it's not Metallica. Metallica was much more enjoyable than whatever thatw as.
* [10:15] Lillie Yifu: hmmmm
* [10:15] Gareth Ellison: that was Zao's Liberate Te Ex Inferis for the curious
* [10:15] Gareth Ellison: anyway.....
* [10:15] JayR Cela: well that choice is due ti Vioxx or wetf their name is
* [10:15] Zha Ewry: OK. OK.
* [10:15] Zha Ewry: stretches and tries to focus
* [10:15] Gareth Ellison: AD lists groups by UUID like now
* [10:15] Gareth Ellison: client does /join #<group UUID>
* [10:15] Tao Takashi: by channel and server and IM service type ;_)
* [10:15] Gareth Ellison: topic gives group name
* [10:15] JayR Cela: face it SL voice is a piece of work still in progress
* [10:15] Tao Takashi: which might be an URI
* [10:15] Dale Innis: So I think we should (a) write down IM requirements for OGP, (b) see if IRC etc meet them and how much glue would be involved, and (c) figure out what would be needed for Sai's most simplest experiment.
* [10:16] Lillie Yifu: A group on the AD should have a set of contact methods. When an agent logs into the AD, their list of contact methods can be matched with the group. So for example, if a group uses AOL as it's group chat method, and the agent hs an AOL, and relased that to the group, then the agent could be given the information needed to log into the group's AOL
* [10:16] Dale Innis: And do that on the WIki, not interspresed in chat with music reviews. :)
* [10:16] Tao Takashi: a group itself could again have e.g. some XRDS document for service discovery
* [10:16] Dale Innis: oooo, that's flexibility alright! mymymy
* [10:16] Dale Innis: wasn't thinking quite that generally. :)
* [10:17] Tao Takashi: and those services might be the IRC channel to use, Jabber group, mailing list, whatever
* [10:17] Gareth Ellison: problem with multiple protocols - lack of support?
* [10:17] Dale Innis: Group Chat via GNU Mailman! :)
* [10:17] JayR Cela: well untill someone or some team make the SL Wiki actually usable it is to much of a pain in the ass to be bothered with
* [10:17] Lillie Yifu: Tao ---> exactly
* [10:17] JayR Cela: i could not even find burning life on it
* [10:17] Tao Takashi: Gareth: I am not saying everything needs to be implemented but that way some winner might emerge
* [10:17] Dale Innis: The AWG parts of the Wiki are pretty usable; what problems have you been having?
* [10:17] Lillie Yifu: aso could have voice, video or other communications services, for example whiteboarding.
* [10:17] Latha Serevi: Gareth, thanks for a specific example model. Yours doesn't have any security, I notice. Question, does IRC have any ability to restrict channel use to a member list?
* [10:17] Gareth Ellison: what if i have a viewer with IRC support but no AIM support, and group X only does AIM
* [10:17] Gareth Ellison: latha - yes
* [10:18] Gareth Ellison: i already mentioned channel keys
* [10:18] Dale Innis: IRC's pretty sophisticated these days.
* [10:18] Gareth Ellison: channel keys could be your agent domain password
* [10:18] Gareth Ellison: runs 2 IRC networks
* [10:18] Gareth Ellison: used to run another 2 too
* [10:18] JayR Cela: well as far as the wiki goes / at least the AWG part is organized
* [10:18] Gareth Ellison: so, i'm biased of course
* [10:18] Tao Takashi: from my place here the wiki is constantly slow though
* [10:18] Gareth Ellison: but still, it scales, it works
* [10:18] Lillie Yifu: Gareth --> that's a service iscovery, the viewer says "I have IRC I am willing to tell you about." "Group says, sorry I only take AOL."
* [10:19] Dale Innis: Yeah, the wiki isn't fast.
* [10:19] Latha Serevi: channel key = AD password, that's confusing to me. whose password? wouldn't chanel key = group membership capability ?
* [10:19] Gareth Ellison: lillie - and why don't we standardise
* [10:19] Gareth Ellison: you know, produce standards
* [10:19] Gareth Ellison: that's what we're here for, right?
* [10:19] JayR Cela: so we use Jabber - or Gabber
* [10:19] Tao Takashi: a group will have a URI, you send the Accept: xrds header with it and you get the XRDS document which lists all the services available
* [10:19] Gareth Ellison: latha if it's on the agent domain, you send it your password
* [10:19] JayR Cela: screw the LL implementation ofGrioup IRC
* [10:19] Gareth Ellison: or you identify to NickServ
* [10:20] Gareth Ellison: and then you can join all channels that it knows you're allowed to join
* [10:20] Tao Takashi: this could be OAuth maybe
* [10:20] Tao Takashi: so you don't have to send your PW around
* [10:20] Tao Takashi: esp. if the IRC server is unrelated to your AD
* [10:20] Zha Ewry: as always, the anchor of "How do we know this person is "Tao Takashi" is relevent here
* [10:20] Tao Takashi: yes
* [10:20] Dale Innis: very very relelvant
* [10:21] Tao Takashi: well, I could be everybody
* [10:21] JayR Cela: Zha / correct you dont really know
* [10:21] Gareth Ellison: tao - if it's unrelated to your AD, you need some other key
* [10:21] Gareth Ellison: but presumably there's some kind of cap we're sending to whatever domain
* [10:21] Tao Takashi: yes, hence OAuth.. But I need to write it down to see if that makes any sense :)
* [10:21] Zha Ewry: IN SL, at the moment, it's pretty hard to spoof being me on chat and IM
* [10:21] Zha Ewry: That's somethign we'd like to preserve
* [10:21] Gareth Ellison: Zha - on irc.litesim.com my whois looks like this:
* [10:21] Graph Weymann: it seems to me, that wen one joins a group, one should receive a capability which lets one connect to the group-IM service
* [10:22] Tao Takashi: and I want to get around caps as much as possible ;-)
* [10:22] Gareth Ellison: 18:21 [litesim
* 18:21 [litesim] ircname : Gareth Nelson
* 18:21 [litesim] channels : @#litesim
* [10:22] Graph Weymann: and that is all that is needed...if you use caps :)
* [10:22] Gareth Ellison: nobody else can have that nick
* [10:22] Gareth Ellison: thanks to nickserv
* [10:22] Latha Serevi: Oh, OK, I'm starting to get Gareth's model. AD runs an IRC relay and can mediate it. So, all AD's of all group members would be part of an IRC net, I guess. I wonder how they would determine what new nodes to add.
* [10:22] Gareth Ellison: and nobdoy else can spoof staff.litesim.com
* [10:22] JayR Cela: Zha / this is true / but LL and their track record with group IM has proven to be spotty at best
* [10:22] Zha Ewry: Tha puts nickserve on the scaling path, which is noe mor ething to think abotu
* [10:23] Bartholomew Kleiber: lol, I just had - for the first time - a group chat timeout.
* [10:23] Latha Serevi: Tao, why do you want to "get around" caps? I thought they were the cool new thing?
* [10:23] Dale Innis: Many providers will not want to outsource their group IM to (say) Nickserv. We have to have models where the AD owner owns more of the resources.
* [10:23] Gareth Ellison: zha - the big IRC neets do it
* [10:23] JayR Cela: why bother to implement an allready broken IRC into open grid
* [10:23] Gareth Ellison: *nets
* [10:23] Dale Innis: already broken IRC?
* [10:23] Tao Takashi: Latha: maybe in SL but outside SL nobody understands them, no web framework supports them, you need some proxy or other complex setup (or some trickery) and all in all it makes this protocol hard to adopt
* [10:24] Gareth Ellison: IRC is stupidly well supported
* [10:24] JayR Cela: @Dale how many times in the past half year has LL - SL IRC group chat been broken
* [10:24] Gareth Ellison: i'm confused here, SL doesn't have IRC now JayR
* [10:24] Tao Takashi: maybe we didn't know ;-)
* [10:24] Dale Innis: Yeah, JayR, I don't think you mean "IRC".
* [10:24] Bartholomew Kleiber: maybe it was IRC all the time
* [10:24] JayR Cela: @Gareth / pardon me / group chat
* [10:25] Dale Innis: ahhh okay :)
* [10:25] Tao Takashi: maybe it was "talk"
* [10:25] JayR Cela: and why and the heck i cant mute it as a feature is beyond me
* [10:25] IdeaThing rev: 5 whispers: fe3133c0-fa38-2975-9b28-7a478513daf2%hi
* [10:25] IdeaThing rev: 5 whispers: fe3133c0-fa38-2975-9b28-7a478513daf2%myposition%<165.97842, 134.45563, 27.42413>
* [10:26] JayR Cela: all ya have to do is add a freaking button to the UI
* [10:26] JayR Cela: to turn off group chat
* [10:26] Bartholomew Kleiber: true
* [10:27] Dale Innis: anyway!! :)
* [10:27] JayR Cela: i cant begin to tell yuou how many groups i have left because of group chat / mindless chatter
* [10:27] Tess Linden: We do have a design to revamp group chat reusing as much of the current architecture as we can, but if OGP is going to support plugin ones, then we should discuss how that'll work
* [10:27] Tammy Nowotny: I wish you cd mute indivduals on a grpup chat channel
* [10:27] Gareth Ellison: tess - what's that design look like?
* [10:27] Dale Innis: Is there a description of either the current arch or the proposed new one for Group IM, Tess?
* [10:28] JayR Cela: @tess / answer to that probem seems fairly straightforward....
* [10:28] Tess Linden: Gareth: it has to do with what ways we hash group ids and agent ids
* [10:28] Tao Takashi: I think there also should be some separation between the "talk groups" and the groups which you need for maintaining land and such
* [10:28] JayR Cela: use an Oen Source / cross platform plug-in
* [10:28] Tess Linden: Gareth: Sean is the author of that design, I would grab him for details
* [10:28] Gareth Ellison: anyone in the AWG group chat right now? see my double lol
* [10:29] Gareth Ellison: screwed up ordering of chat and bad lag
* [10:29] Zha Ewry: Can we get Sean to stop by and give us a rundown of his thinking?
* [10:29] Dale Innis: Isn't grabbing Lindens a ToS violation? :)
* [10:29] Tao Takashi: Dale: likely ;-)
* [10:29] Gareth Ellison: dale - dirty mind
* [10:29] Tao Takashi: Dale: you should ask LL's legal dept ;-)
* [10:29] Dale Innis: :)
* [10:29] Tammy Nowotny: my understanding is that if Linedens wish to be grabbed, they are supposed to use an alt :-)
* [10:30] Dale Innis: If no one else signs up to this time, I'm going to create some Wiki pages for gathering the Group-IM thoughts.
* [10:30] Tammy Nowotny: but I have never worked for LL, so I don't really know
* [10:30] Dale Innis: Just BSing in chat alla time doesn't get us much of anywhere. :)
* [10:30] Tammy Nowotny: OT Q: is group chat the reason we have such a limited number of group slots in SL?
* [10:31] Tao Takashi: maybe it's also because of the legal dept, who knows ;-)
* [10:31] Zha Ewry: That's not such an OT quetsion, Tammy
* [10:31] Tao Takashi: or it was Philip's sadistic side ..
* [10:32] Tess Linden: Does the current API for group chat fit well with OGP though? Sean's design is only for improving how much group chat scales
* [10:32] Zha Ewry: I don't know that anyone's really thoght about it
* [10:32] Tao Takashi: I am not sure what the API actually is ;-)
* [10:32] Zha Ewry: we had some discussion about how groups
* [10:33] Zha Ewry: are currently overloaded in ways which are especially odd in cross grid storiews
* [10:33] Dale Innis: What API is there for group chat? You mean the messages that flow tot he viewer?
* [10:33] Tao Takashi: it probably starts with roles and such...
* [10:33] Zha Ewry: e.g. chat/notice groups are pretty sane across the grid
* [10:34] Tao Takashi: and land management is also included there which is more an RD thing
* [10:34] Zha Ewry: land management groups, somewhat less so
* [10:34] Tao Takashi: I would think that an RD has some land management groups where you can put people in
* [10:34] Zha Ewry: And.. all of it.. needs to be anchored off of a way to believe that the AD you're talking to can be trusteded
* [10:34] Tao Takashi: but different from the chat groups
* [10:35] Tao Takashi: I would think that the trust is even more important for land management than for chat
* [10:35] Dale Innis: So does OGP need to explicitly include various types of groups?
* [10:35] Dale Innis: AD groups vs. RD groups,. say?
* [10:36] Tammy Nowotny: maybe, but not too many types of groups
* [10:36] Zha Ewry: Not sure that fully follows Dale
* [10:36] Tao Takashi: or are RD groups maybe some implementation detail?
* [10:36] Dale Innis: Yeah, that's why I asked? :)
* [10:36] Tao Takashi: do they need to be transferrable between domains?
* [10:36] Dale Innis: Not sure if the differnce shows at the OGP level or n ot.
* [10:36] Zha Ewry: Part of the pain, at the moment, is that, the model sometimes maps well
* [10:36] Tammy Nowotny: on the main grid there is a trend rtowards taking messaging groups off the group system
* [10:36] Zha Ewry: and sometimes not
* [10:36] Zha Ewry: (into the scripted ones?)
* [10:37] Latha Serevi: Tao, great point about land management groups I think
* [10:37] Tao Takashi: of course there needs to be some interface for the viewer to handle land management groups
* [10:37] Tammy Nowotny: e.g., Tuna Oddfelow has distribution list for his events which is separate from his actual SL fan club group
* [10:37] Tammy Nowotny: and many people use the Freinds Conference as a quasi-group
* [10:37] Dale Innis: Those can only be used for push-stule announcements, not chat or anything else, but yeah good point.
* [10:37] Tao Takashi: but such an interface could also simply be HTML based
* [10:38] Dale Innis: Ad hoc group chat is great. :)
* [10:38] Tao Takashi: and those group members could still be exportable by some web standard
* [10:38] Tao Takashi: like 
* [10:38] Tammy Nowotny: it wd be good to build something equivalent to the Subscribe-o-matic in to the system
* [10:38] Dale Innis: oooo cool! :)
* [10:39] Tao Takashi: thanks, Latha :) I am not sure it all comes together in the end though ;-)
* [10:39] Gareth Ellison: ad hoc group chat works great
* [10:39] Gareth Ellison: on IRC
* [10:39] Gareth Ellison: ;)
* [10:39] Gareth Ellison: this maps too easily to IRC
* [10:40] Latha Serevi: Uses for group membership: as capability for land management or object usage; as a desire to join a chat channel on login; ...
* [10:41] Gareth Ellison: ops on the parcel's channel are able to kick users
* [10:41] Gareth Ellison: that would be a weird but cool way to do things
* [10:41] Dale Innis: challenges Gareth to put her money where her mouth is :) in the Wiki.
* [10:41] Gareth Ellison: stop me now before i turn the world into an IRCD
* [10:41] Dale Innis: haha
* [10:42] Tao Takashi: so OGP should then enable also something like Gareth's ideas. The big question is then how we can make it so while also supporting different models. And that's your homework! ;-)
* [10:42] Dale Innis: volunteers to start a Wiki page, since no one else is going to. :P
* [10:42] Tao Takashi: as said, for me the wiki usually is too slow to be usable for anything productive
* [10:42] Zha Ewry: I think that, on the whole, plugability is fine, but .. that it's not a pure answe for the problem
* [10:43] Tao Takashi: well, of course we also need to add one default method to use now
* [10:43] Dale Innis: And we should pay attention to Sai's suggestion to just try the minimal thing and see what happens.
* [10:44] Gareth Ellison: move the current chat system to be purely agent domain... that would require having none-HTTP components in the agent domain
* [10:44] Gareth Ellison: sai - is pyogp up for that?
* [10:44] Dale Innis: We could HTTPify them at the same time.
* [10:44] Zha Ewry: right. One thing we see too often it "pl;ugable, plugable piulgable" which is fine, but doesn't actually give you a solution
* [10:44] Tao Takashi: pyogp does not care if it sends UDP to AD or RD
* [10:44] Tao Takashi: or receives
* [10:45] Dale Innis: Still need to decide the shape of the plug. :))
* [10:45] Tao Takashi: according to Gareth the solution seemed to be IRC ;-)
* [10:45] Gareth Ellison: it works, so use it
* [10:45] Tao Takashi: but even if we keep some sort of the current system in an enhanced way we might still want to have some plugin method on top
* [10:45] Dale Innis: I'd love to see a writeup of exactly how to do it via IRC. But no one loves the poor Wiki.
* [10:45] Latha Serevi: Regarding all those uses for gruop membership, what about the suggestion of separating out insecure-group-chat from the other set of uses for secure-group-membership as capability? Then, we could consider having one OGP mechanism for managing secure-group-membership, and using it for pretty much every trust group and authentication issue, including what AD's are trusted to rezz objects by a given RD, etc.
* [10:46] Dale Innis: Group chat has to be secure also.
* [10:46] Gareth Ellison: KISSARSE - Keep It Simple Stupid And Request STandard Environments
* [10:46] Graph Weymann: why make chat "insecure"?
* [10:46] Gareth Ellison: Dale - IRC has tons of security features
* [10:46] Gareth Ellison: even more than SL group chat
* [10:46] Dale Innis: I know Gareth, I was reacting to Latha. :)
* [10:46] Latha Serevi: Dale et al - I think one major use case is insecure-chat
* [10:47] Latha Serevi: (e.g. 95% of IRC in the world, right)
* [10:47] Dale Innis: Latha, I tend to disagree, but could you expand on that?
* [10:47] Graph Weymann: nobody *wants* insecurity
* [10:47] Gareth Ellison: latha - you mean unregistered IRC channels?
* [10:47] Gareth Ellison: with unregistered nicks?
* [10:47] Dale Innis: How often in SL do you want to be in chat, but not care whether the names of the chatters are correct, for isntance?
* [10:47] Bartholomew Kleiber: like me ... Bath13 :-/
* [10:47] Gareth Ellison: you can enforce that authentication is needed to connect
* [10:47] Gareth Ellison: that's a standard option on most IRCDs
* [10:48] Latha Serevi: We're trying to define OGP for a variety of needs, Dale, including bridges to other non-SL environments. A major use case is "connect with a group of chatters in an incompatible system, and I don't care so much about security" -- and this is a way easier bridge to make than a secure one, perhaps
* [10:48] Gareth Ellison: how are you defining secure?
* [10:48] Latha Serevi: Gareth, I don't know enough about IRC to say precisely what I mean.
* [10:48] Dale Innis: I guess, Latha. :) It's certainly a use-case. No need to argue about "Major" I suppose.
* [10:48] Bartholomew Kleiber: Latha: ah now I get it
* [10:49] Bartholomew Kleiber: you are in favour of this
* [10:49] Bartholomew Kleiber: me too,
* [10:49] Gareth Ellison: /join #omgrandomnewchannel will create a new channel that disappears after you leave
* [10:49] Dale Innis: ( If I want to chat with a bunch of random non-SL people, I'll j ust fire up a normal IRC client. )
* [10:49] Gareth Ellison: and thus someone could recreate it and take ops
* [10:49] Gareth Ellison: is that what you meant?
* [10:49] Tao Takashi: connecting to channels on non-AD-aware servers would for me be a big use case
* [10:49] Bartholomew Kleiber: but wouldnt it be cool if this were an IRC channel right now?
* [10:49] Tao Takashi: but that could always be done by some viewer plugin
* [10:50] Dale Innis: Cool in what sense? :)
* [10:50] Gareth Ellison: spatial region chat would not be compatible with IRC without a load of mess
* [10:50] Dale Innis: I imagine it would be just exactly like this.
* [10:50] Tao Takashi: in not using that many resource just to chat with you ;-)
* [10:50] Bartholomew Kleiber: that Zha for example could use the 'small' IRC protocol from far away europe
* [10:50] Gareth Ellison: i think spatial chat should not be put in the same bucket as IM and group chat
* [10:50] Dale Innis: agrees.
* [10:50] Bartholomew Kleiber: so she can attend while on vacation
* [10:50] Tammy Nowotny: nods
* [10:50] Latha Serevi: Well, I was just trying to see if there were two distinct cases -- super-secure-groups-standing-in-for-capabilities, and super-insecure-groups-standing-in-for-unregistered-IRC-channnels.
* [10:50] Bartholomew Kleiber: yes, but this could be a group chat
* [10:50] Zha Ewry: eyes Bart suspiciously
* [10:50] Bartholomew Kleiber: and theme wise it is
* [10:50] Tao Takashi: right, it wouldn't be spatial sim-chat then but it might be a one-shot group for this meeting
* [10:51] Tao Takashi: or channel
* [10:51] Dale Innis: But then we couldn't SEE each other Bart. :)
* [10:51] JayR Cela: @Tao / thank you / doesn't anyone listen to me / a simple plugin to the mozilla gekko browser engine is the only logical choice
* [10:51] Bartholomew Kleiber: and often people are chatting into the group channel in parallel
* [10:51] Graph Weymann: spatial chat certainly makes the most sense being piped through the region
* [10:51] Tao Takashi: I don't see you right now, Dale ;-)
* [10:51] Gareth Ellison: this particular chat could be in #awgmeeting
* [10:51] Bartholomew Kleiber: right
* [10:51] Gareth Ellison: and all users would identify to nickserv
* [10:51] Graph Weymann: you could have a widget in the region that bridges to IRC
* [10:51] JayR Cela: so while you all babble about something as silly as this i am leaving
* [10:51] Tao Takashi: there is a chatwindow between us
* [10:51] Zha Ewry: ( I mostly had internet access the whole time but oddly was vqacatinf)
* [10:51] Gareth Ellison: perhaps zha would register with chanserv
* [10:51] Dale Innis: i.e. all this "virtual worlds" stuff shold really just be a text chatroom, eh? lol
* [10:52] Latha Serevi: Gareth, oh, I forgot about spatial chat altogether! Good point, can we think of a model for how to implement spatial chat inside a group chat mechanism (e.g. gruop is sim, filtered on client side by distance) ?
* [10:52] Tao Takashi: for such meetings I would say "yes" ;-)
* [10:52] Dale Innis: facepalms.
* [10:52] Tao Takashi: if we watch videos together or had some whiteboarding app, then no
* [10:52] Gareth Ellison: heh, it'd be funny if we did actually drop the whole "meetings in virtual worlds" thing for IRC
* [10:52] Gareth Ellison: history repeats itself
* [10:52] JayR Cela: fight amongst your selves about such an inane issue is beyond me
* [10:52] Bartholomew Kleiber: I think this is in the responcibility of the client
* [10:52] Dale Innis: Get up on the wrong side of the bed, JayR? :)
* [10:52] JayR Cela: Tao is right
* [10:52] Gareth Ellison: latha - you could prefix messages via CTCP
* [10:52] Gareth Ellison: and put co-ordinates in there
* [10:53] Tao Takashi: IM seems to be mostly the issue of the client except that there should be some means of identification between AD and IM service
* [10:53] Tao Takashi: and maybe checking trust relationships
* [10:53] Gareth Ellison: in fact, now that i think about it - i designed spatial chat using filters like that already in GMMP
* [10:53] JayR Cela: its a freaking damm pug in / what part of that dont you all get or understand
* [10:53] Graph Weymann: seems silly to me. you then let the client view messages that are supposed to be too far for that
* [10:53] Gareth Ellison: it consists of a huge pile of channels
* [10:53] Gareth Ellison: regions == channels
* [10:53] Graph Weymann: let the region do the spatial filering, that's its business
* [10:53] Bartholomew Kleiber: yes
* [10:53] Bartholomew Kleiber: exactly
* [10:53] Dale Innis: But we need to figure out just what the plugin *does* JayR! :)
* [10:53] Dale Innis: Saying that it's a plugin doesn't solve all that much...
* [10:53] Gareth Ellison: hmm, region could run an IRCD and only send it to a connected client if that client's avatar is within range
* [10:54] Gareth Ellison: so, IRC could do spatial chat
* [10:54] JayR Cela: Dale / WHAT !!!!!! ??????
* [10:54] Latha Serevi: Graph, I mostly agree -- except if performance is not an issue for chat, and we could turn two separate implementations into one.
* [10:54] Gareth Ellison: that kinda works
* [10:54] JayR Cela: its a damm pug in to allow IRC
* [10:54] Dale Innis: Calm, calm. :)
* [10:54] JayR Cela: grr i am out of this waste of my time
* [10:54] Gareth Ellison: then each region's IRCD links up to form that region domain's IRC network
* [10:54] Latha Serevi: Aww, JayR
* [10:54] Dale Innis: my my my
* [10:55] Latha Serevi: Here, have a dog biscuit
* [10:55] Dale Innis: haha
* [10:55] Dale Innis: We are running a bit long.
* [10:55] Bartholomew Kleiber: I remember when I had my first beer
* [10:55] Tao Takashi: so would this work with XMPP, too? ;-)
* [10:55] Dale Innis: What "this"? :)
* [10:55] Tao Takashi: this sim chat idea with spatial metadata
* [10:55] Dale Innis: We don't have a design, we just have a number of sentences of the form "Just use <favorite chat protocol>". :)
* [10:55] Dale Innis: ohhhhh
* [10:56] Dale Innis: yeah, that's soething I haven't thought about at all.
* [10:56] Bartholomew Kleiber: I would expect that you could do anything with XMPP what you can do with IRC
* [10:56] Bartholomew Kleiber: and more
* [10:56] Tao Takashi: this might be some extension protocol then
* [10:56] Gareth Ellison: dale - i've put a bunch of thoughts forward about how to bridge this into IRC
* [10:56] Tao Takashi: but I still haven read the XMPP specs ;-)
* [10:56] Dale Innis: Put them where?
* [10:56] Tao Takashi: hopefully not the bin
* [10:56] Tess Linden: lets get some stuff onto a wiki?
* [10:57] Tess Linden: I gotta run, but looking forward to reviewing that for a proposal
* [10:57] Tess Linden: thanks!
* [10:57] Tammy Nowotny: there might even be situations where you wd want region wide chat
* [10:57] Tao Takashi: that was stuff for 10 proposals though ;-)
* [10:57] Rex Cronon: bye tess
* [10:57] Bartholomew Kleiber: bye
* [10:57] Tao Takashi: not all compatible with each other though
* [10:57] Tao Takashi: cya Tess
* [10:57] Bartholomew Kleiber: region wide chat wouldnt be a problem methinks
* [10:57] Gareth Ellison: use /notice for group notices and region-wide "ZOMG! SHUTDOWN" notices
* [10:57] Tammy Nowotny: it exisst in SL already... although they nerfed it so you can use any channel but /0
* [10:57] Gareth Ellison: for region-wide chat, just bypass the fitlers
* [10:57] Dale Innis: I will make a page on the Wiki.
* [10:58] Tammy Nowotny: that was puerly a social decision because it wd be misused
* [10:58] Gareth Ellison: *filters
* [10:58] Gareth Ellison: man, IRC fits so cleanly
* [10:58] Tao Takashi: I guess it's sort of hard to define all this right now.. but it would be nice if OGP would have the extension points needed for experiments
* [10:58] Tammy Nowotny: if yoiu let objects do LLregionsSay() on open chat
* [10:58] Gareth Ellison: my model little python on my desk just fell over :(
* [10:58] Bartholomew Kleiber: Gareth, could you throw your notes over to Dale or me?
* [10:59] Dale Innis: Yes, please!
* [10:59] Gareth Ellison: i don't have notes here yet
* [10:59] Tao Takashi: and me, please :)
* [10:59] Dale Innis: chuckles.
* [10:59] Gareth Ellison: i'll get some together and throw them at dale
* [10:59] Latha Serevi: Question, does anyone anticipate spatial-chat being very high bandwidth, same order of magnitude as position-updates? Or might I get away with imagining it being less bandwidth-intensive in most cases, so we might use a less bandwidth-optimizing means for it? Or am I forgetting about, say, widespread use of object-chat as a requirement? Objects typically can't join groups, but they can local-chat. Hmm.
* [10:59] Dale Innis: Or stick them in the Wiki. :) But at me is fine too. DaleInnisEmail@gmail.com or whatelver.
* [10:59] Tao Takashi: Barth: btw, I will try to write the second part of the trust blog post tomorrow or thursday
* [10:59] Bartholomew Kleiber: cool
* [11:00] Bartholomew Kleiber: I was going to ask that ( bad conscience on my part)
* [11:00] Dale Innis: I stuck the Wiki pionters in as a comment on that post. :)
* [11:00] Tao Takashi: at least I managed to publich part 1 ;-)
* [11:01] Dale Innis: To Infinity's pages on trust and all.
* [11:01] Latha Serevi: Gareth, thanks for the interesting IRC stuff today. Sounds like definitely one thing we should consider is to shove as much as possible into IRC and see how that looks.
* [11:01] Tao Takashi: cool, Dale, I was thinking I mentioned it.. but it might be in part 2
* [11:01] Tao Takashi: where I refer to the stakeholders
* [11:01] Dale Innis: you might have even :)
* [11:01] Rex Cronon: bye everybody
* [11:02] Dale Innis: bye Iron Man! :)
* [11:02] Tammy Nowotny: cyas Rex
* [11:02] Rex Cronon: have fun implementing IRC in sl:)
* [11:02] Bartholomew Kleiber: lol, bye rex
* [11:03] Dale Innis: I will make soem sort of User:Dale_Innis/Group_IM_in_OGP page on the Wiki. fwiw...
* [11:03] Bartholomew Kleiber: k
* [11:03] Dale Innis: flies away. :)
* [11:04] Dale Innis: We should meet down underwater some week. :))
* [11:04] Tammy Nowotny: I shd go back to socalled Real Life mysef
* [11:04] Tammy Nowotny: I notc ied the underwater conference room
* [11:04] Tao Takashi: I will check at Robin's to see what new surprise LL legal might have :)
* [11:04] Tao Takashi: see ya later
* [11:04] Tammy Nowotny: there may be some surprises
* [11:05] Tao Takashi: probably
* [11:05] Tao Takashi: cya
* [11:05] Tammy Nowotny: LOL
* [11:06] Tammy Nowotny: waves
* [11:06] Tammy Nowotny: ciao!
* [11:07] Bartholomew Kleiber: bye all
Category:Grid_Interoperability_Chat_Logs
Category:AW_Groupies_Transcripts