Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.04.16

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== List of Speakers ==
Inara Pey 	Kitto Flora
Liisa Runo 	Nalates Urriah
Qie Niangao 	Rex Cronon
Simon Linden 	Whirly Fizzle
Yuzuru Jewell	
== Transcript ==
[12:01] Simon Linden: I just got a message from Andrew saying he can't make it today, but let's get started
[12:01] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
[12:01] Yuzuru Jewell: Hello, Rex.
[12:01] Simon Linden: There was an update pushed to the main server channel this morning
[12:02] Simon Linden: The details on the forum are here : http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2013-04-15/td-p/1971591
[12:02] Rex Cronon: hi yuzuru
[12:03] Simon Linden: The update had some work on the http communications but I don't know if there's anything perceptible about the new code
[12:03] Simon Linden: Tomorrow the RC channels should see a return of the maintenance bug fixes that were out 2 weeks ago
[12:04] Simon Linden: We had a 2nd project in the works for RC but there were some last minute scheduling issues and I don't think it's going to make it
[12:04] Simon Linden: That's it for release news
[12:04] Qie Niangao: So... all the RCs get the new AO functions tomorrow? Or is that wrong?
[12:04] Kitto Flora: What are those bug fixes?
[12:05] Simon Linden: Yes Qie, I'm pretty sure that's what will happen. We've been trying to get another project into RC but it's down to the wire to complete testing, and I think it won't make it
[12:05] Qie Niangao: okay, got it. Thanks.
[12:05] Simon Linden: The new code release notes are here : http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Second_Life_RC_Magnum/13#13.04.12.273874
[12:06] Nalates Urriah: May be roll BS & LT on Thirsday?
[12:06] Simon Linden: It was out on RC two weeks ago, but there was a problem with existing pose ball animations that prevented it from being promoted
[12:07] Kitto Flora: I see a crash mode fix - Which crash mode is that?
[12:07] Simon Linden: I haven't heard that suggested yet, Nal ... we try not to move the release days around so they're more predictable and don't mess up in-world scheduled events
[12:07] Nalates Urriah: OK...
[12:08] Whirly Fizzle: Can you say what the 2nd project was that may not make it?
[12:08] Simon Linden: I think that's one we're not publicizing the details on, Kitto
[12:08] Rex Cronon: it seems there r problems with the new code. like the sim ping has increased, and sculpties and meshes r slower to load:(
[12:08] Kitto Flora: ... while we are seeing it every day... several times a day?
[12:08] Rex Cronon: not meshes textures
[12:09] Simon Linden: Whirly - I'm not sure what's been publicly discussed about that project so I'm not going to get into details
[12:09] Whirly Fizzle: Okies
[12:09] Yuzuru Jewell: I and my friends tested crossing SIM by vehicle last week end. it iw very smoothly.
[12:10] Yuzuru Jewell: it was.
[12:10] Simon Linden: Rex ... well, I know Monty and others have done lots of load testing and tried to measure that. I'm not closely involved with the project but I hope it hasn't gotten worse
[12:10] Yuzuru Jewell: between magnam to other channel.
[12:11] Kitto Flora: I did a lot of sim border crossing testing - flying acorss and lloking for the 'drift on the neverland' problem...
[12:12] Kitto Flora: My conclusion - its not the version of sim code. It depends on how much network traffic you have.
[12:12] Simon Linden: well, that code is all over the grid now, Yuzuru, so I'm sure we'll hear it if there are new problems. I know we've been hearing about slow crossings especially with vehicles a bit more lately
[12:13] Simon Linden: Kitto - yeah, I'd believe that. The exchange between a viewer, the old region and the new region is pretty complicated. It doesn't like losing packets or data
[12:13] Kitto Flora: If you set Qualty to Low and Draw Dist to minimum you rarely get the border crossing problem.
[12:13] Yuzuru Jewell: Is fast crossing better than slow crossing?
[12:14] Kitto Flora: For flying - you cant change the speed.
[12:14] Kitto Flora: Cept you could stop before the border then fly short dist across
[12:14] Simon Linden: Your speed in-world shouldn't have any effect on actually making it or not, but faster crossings will show the errors in predicting where objects will be more
[12:14] Kitto Flora: Thats better - if you stop a while
[12:14] Inara Pey: Hmmm.. I was out over the weekend, and while not monitoring network traffic, I did note that I encountered more issues when moving between the SLS channel and an RC (or back) than moving from SLS to SLS....
[12:15] Kitto Flora: Its directly related to your Net traffic rate when you cross
[12:15] Kitto Flora: If its 500k - fail maybe 20% of time
[12:15] Simon Linden: Such as the rubber band effect when crossing ... your viewer sees you going a certain speed, and keeps moving you that way, while you hit the crossing, get some lag as the data is transfered to the new region, and you're stuck into the world, then sling-shot back to the new position
[12:15] Kitto Flora: If its 50k it rarely fails
[12:16] Simon Linden: That looks worse when you go fast
[12:16] Inara Pey: Will have another go later in the week. My net traffic is usually reasonably stable
[12:16] Simon Linden: Having lots of scripts and mesh makes it worse because there is more data to pass between the two regions
[12:16] Kitto Flora: So it appers to me that the critical 'crossing into new sim' packet(s) are failing - being lost - if the traffic rate is high.
[12:16] Kitto Flora: It smells of 'no-relible' packet being lost
[12:17] Yuzuru Jewell: We can't find fail.. So we have fast network, haven't we?
[12:17] Kitto Flora: Dows crossing still use udp and reliable packets?
[12:17] Simon Linden: I'm not sure Kitto - I wouldn't be surprised if there's a mix
[12:17] Kitto Flora: That would eplain the problem then...
[12:18] Kitto Flora: Border crossing ought to be high-priority and reliable.
[12:18] Simon Linden: There are a bunch of different places it can fail
[12:18] Kitto Flora: Lossing trees building objects .. ifyou go fast - thats ok. Loosing connection to next sim - unacceptable.
[12:20] Rex Cronon: maybe instead of sim crossing we should hav only tp?
[12:20] Qie Niangao: Is there also an extra delay when crossing into an idle region? Like it takes a while to wake up? Or is that just coincidence / my superstition? (I don't really know that the region is idle before I get there, and then it's not... kinda like the refrigerator light.)
[12:20] Simon Linden: Anyone that owns a region can set it up as an island, Rex. But people do like lots of connecting land
[12:20] Whirly Fizzle: I thought idling regions woke up if avatars were in adjoining regions
[12:20] Kitto Flora: If we only had TP then walking, flying,riding across the border would all fail.
[12:21] Simon Linden: Qie - you actually shouldn't ever be able to do that. It won't be idling if you can see into it
[12:21] Kitto Flora: Riding a veh. across works better becuase its usually slow - unless you have a jet plane
[12:21] Qie Niangao: ah, okay. Thanks.
[12:22] parser: Touched.
[12:23] Kitto Flora: When flying I do see regions that appear to be idling - or unresponsive to new child Avs . As I approach they are 'invisible' and you usally bounce of the border. After some seconds they appear, then you can cross
[12:23] Yuzuru Jewell: Kitto, Did it occur on Magnum?
[12:24] Kitto Flora: Yuzuru - did which occur on Magnum?
[12:24] Yuzuru Jewell: To fail to cross SIM
[12:25] Kitto Flora: Yes - I think every combination has failed
[12:25] Kitto Flora: at some time
[12:25] Simon Linden: The non-visible neighbor regions have typically been a different problem. Also, remember idle regions are dead, they just are running at a slower frame rate, just like loaded down regions do
[12:25] Kitto Flora: I think the cause of the 'drift on for ever' at border is in all brances of sim code now.
[12:25] Simon Linden: Sorry "aren't dead"
[12:25] Kitto Flora: Started months back and its everywhere
[12:26] Yuzuru Jewell: Thank you, Kitto.
[12:26] Kitto Flora: Yes - Drift on for ever and cant see the neighbor for a while are 2 different bugs
[12:27] Whirly Fizzle: Are there any updates on how the missing prims issue fixes are doing in testing? If I understand right it will be a part serverside, part viewerside fix
[12:27] Rex Cronon: simon. i was wondering if this https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SCR-35 can be the next topic of discussion:)
[12:27] Kitto Flora: And theres a third related - Cant see the neighbor or cross into it - permanently, BUT yyou can tP into it, or get in via adjacent sims - Thats a services that didnt start right - sim does not know its neighbor's address.
[12:29] Simon Linden: Rex - I doubt we will fix that function directly, as I expect there are things that now work because of that behavior. We'd likely have to add another function like llXorBase64StringsCorrectThisTime()
[12:30] Simon Linden: it hasn't popped up much, as far as I can tell
[12:30] Rex Cronon: than u should also look at this one https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-289 :)
[12:33] Simon Linden: I think those have lingered because they just haven't risen high enough in priority
[12:34] Rex Cronon: and btw what is happening with swt(sandbox weapons testing)? for quite a few days scripts have been off over there. how can u test weapons without scripts running? the only way to hit somebody with a bullet is to rez it aboe their head and let them drop:)
[12:34] Simon Linden: I have no idea, Rex, I'll pass it on to Maestro. I think he manages those
[12:35] Rex Cronon: if u want to have relatively secure communications with outside server or even between objects u need that xor function to work "correct":(
[12:35] Kitto Flora: What about the new bug that does not auto-return prims on parcel boundaries? Thats getting a lot of exercise :(
[12:36] Simon Linden: There's a chance the swt region got shut off due to griefing, but I'm guessing
[12:37] Rex Cronon: very likely simon, but usually it lasts a at most a day. to me it seems that sim scripts have been off for almost a week:(
[12:38] Kitto Flora: Rex - Ticket it as a broken region. Thats what I do with Wengen - nad the monkeys fix it. Mostly.
[12:38] Qie Niangao: Unrelated to anything: I noticed that the SL10B organizers have limited dimensions of non-phantom "walked-on" prims to 10m. That's not a problem, I'm just wondering if that's generally a good thing to do in very busy venues, even with current Havok. And if so, why. (I can make up stories to argue both ways.)
[12:38] Simon Linden: I thought that edge problem was fixed and released already
[12:39] Rex Cronon: ticket it? i can do that even though is a sandbox sim owned by ll?
[12:39] Simon Linden: That's interesting, Qie. I have no idea why they would or wouldn't recommend taht
[12:39] Kitto Flora: Simon - go look at Plum region - its got thousands of griefer prims on parcel borders - have been there for *days*
[12:39] Whirly Fizzle: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-2021 (Auto-return not affecting objects at 256m) but was marked as a dupe of https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-313 (estate tools do not return objects between 255 and 256m ).
[12:39] Kitto Flora: And this AM they turned up in Wengen
[12:39] Liisa Runo: there is "linden ownewr parcel issue" as one option in the ticket dropdown box
[12:39] Qie Niangao: Okay, thanks Simon.
[12:40] Kitto Flora: Actually is any prim on a parcel border
[12:40] Kitto Flora: reporters probably dont have parcels
[12:40] Simon Linden: That fix should be in the RC tomorrow, Whirly - thanks for the link
[12:41] Rex Cronon: it is weird. if something is located at 256m it should be in the next sim
[12:41] Kitto Flora: Ohh - which RC Simon?
[12:41] Simon Linden: tomorrow, Kitto - likely all 3 of them
[12:42] Kitto Flora: OK.. offhand dunno what Plum is running
[12:42] Simon Linden: It's on Bluesteel, so should get the fix
[12:42] Liisa Runo: problem with ticketing is: It takes time for LL to react to the ticket, usually a day or more, and after fixing only takes couple hours for some linden to panic when cant find return button, and to turn off scripts.
[12:42] Kitto Flora: Look on Map at Plum regin. See the whitish square lower center - thats all grifer cubes on a parcel border.
[12:43] Qie Niangao: That's sim-border objects...Kitto, are those on *parcel* borders that aren't the sim border?
[12:43] Qie Niangao: (or is it the same bug?)
[12:43] Kitto Flora: As you see on the map - the parcel is well inside the sim borders
[12:43] Simon Linden: The bug I know about is objects at the region edge
[12:44] Qie Niangao: I was afraid that was what I was seeing.
[12:44] Simon Linden: They could slip into a limbo area where they didn't get moved to a neighbor (possibly not there) yet they weren't within the region proper
[12:45] Kitto Flora: Simon, is the RC auto-return fix only about si borders ie. 255/256 M?
[12:45] Kitto Flora: Or is it a general math fix?
[12:45] Rex Cronon: can u also put objects at -1 :)
[12:46] Simon Linden: I'm not sure the difference there, Kitto - but it's about objects just over the region edge that get stuck in the limbo I just described
[12:46] Kitto Flora: Actually all the way to -4 or 260
[12:46] Kitto Flora: .. if you dont do certain ops on them
[12:47] Kitto Flora: Simon - it looks like someone did a test (posion < border) || (position > border)
[12:48] Kitto Flora: thus ignoring position = border
[12:48] Simon Linden: It's already fixed, Kitto .. the problem was they weren't actually on a parcel proper
[12:48] Rex Cronon: looks like kitto might be right:)
[12:49] Kitto Flora: OK - I hope that really is 'parcel' and not ' region'
[12:49] Simon Linden: it only happens at a region edge
[12:49] Rex Cronon: what is a "parcel proper"?
[12:49] Kitto Flora sighs
[12:50] Kitto Flora: Simon - look at Plumb - the stuck prims are well inside the region
[12:51] Simon Linden: Please file a BUG if they are there after tomorrow's update and someone with permissions tries to return them and they don't get returned
[12:51] Kitto Flora: Er - its all Linden Land
[12:51] Kitto Flora: And Governance are out to lunch...
[12:51] Qie Niangao: but it's all auto-return, so... maybe they'll poof on their own
[12:52] Kitto Flora: Residents tell me they've been ARing it for a week now - and no lindens removing the prims or griefer
[12:52] Kitto Flora sighs again
[12:52] Simon Linden: Auto-return should get them then
[12:52] Kitto Flora: Well - duh!
[12:52] Kitto Flora: Thats the bug. Auto-return is not working AT THE PARCEL BORDERS.
[12:53] Qie Niangao: (I mean, *after* the fix, if the fix happens to work on parcel borders, too, and not just regions)
[12:53] Kitto Flora: Qui: Indeed!
[12:53] Rex Cronon: it seems auto-return has a few failure modes:(
[12:53] Simon Linden: I believe the bug is fixed, and will roll out tomorrow, autoreturn will get the objects.
[12:54] Rex Cronon: lets see what happens tomorrow after roll out
[12:54] Kitto Flora: The border thing is only weeks old
[12:55] Qie Niangao: heh, actually, we have to cross our fingers that governance doesn't tidy-up in Plum before the roll-out tests the theory. :p
[12:56] Kitto Flora: Heh - Wengen Gang will exercise it, I am sure
[12:56] Whirly Fizzle: haha they probably will when you want them to be a little slow
[12:56] Kitto Flora: They were at it this AM
[12:58] Rex Cronon: Wengen Gang? is that a group of lindens that clean up sims?
[12:58] Kitto Flora: No , its a Group who hang out in Wengen, and several members exercise their griefing skills there
[12:58] Qie Niangao: Maybe we could have them pay you a visit, Rex. :p
[12:59] Rex Cronon: i don't own a sim qie
[12:59] Rex Cronon: but is very likely they have been to swt before:)
[12:59] Qie Niangao: 'tis indeed.
[13:00] Kitto Flora: Rex - Bullet<something> ring a bell as a residents name?
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