Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2011.11.08

Simulator_User_Group
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== List of Speakers ==
Andrew Linden 	ANSI Soderstrom 	Falcon Linden
Flip Idlemind 	Imaze Rhiano 	JoyofRLC Acker
Kadah Coba 	Kallista Destiny 	Kaluura Boa
Kelly Linden 	Kitto Flora 	Leonel Iceghost
Liisa Runo 	Pauline Darkfury 	Qie Niangao
Rex Cronon 	Sahkolihaa Contepomi	Simon Linden
Tankmaster Finesmith	Techwolf Lupindo 	Vincent Nacon
Visitor Detector 	 	
== Transcript ==
[12:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[12:00] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
[12:00] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: When a normal map generated is larger than SL's window, it causes black lines to appear.
[12:00] Techwolf Lupindo: Hi all.
[12:01] Visitor Detector: Returning visitor to your land: Andrew Linden
[12:01] Visitor Detector: Returning visitor to your land: Techwolf Lupindo
[12:01] Kaluura Boa: Meeter is a bit off...
[12:01] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Only happens under 'Lights and Shadows' on Runitai's build, but it's now fixed.
[12:01] Rex Cronon: hi
[12:01] Simon Linden: I think it's on a 60 second timer, Kaluura
[12:01] Techwolf Lupindo: Anyone else gettting "[11:56] Second Life: Your region will restart in 5 minutes and 0 seconds for maintenance." instead fo the yellow drop down notice?
[12:01] Vincent Nacon: no?
[12:01] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Hey Andrew.
[12:01] Rex Cronon: i don't
[12:01] Kaluura Boa: No message, no dialog...
[12:01] Andrew Linden: Hello
[12:01] Rex Cronon: hello andrew
[12:02] Andrew Linden: Ok so news...
[12:02] Simon Linden: I haven't seen anything about this region going down, but it might happen -- the rollout this morning did not go smoothly
[12:02] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: This sim is on LeTigre.
[12:02] Andrew Linden: First of all, I thinhk I have lto leave a little early today to attend a meeting starting at 12:45 my time
[12:02] Andrew Linden: Simon should be here the whole time.
[12:03] Vincent Nacon: no problem
[12:03] Imaze Rhiano looks around... where are all sailors?
[12:03] VISTA ANIMATIONS *HUD 3.4* URBAN MALE AO V2 U: MAIN AO OFF
[12:03] Vincent Nacon: don't even ask about sailors!
[12:03] Andrew Linden: Last Friday there was a big crowd, mostly concerned with region crossing issues.
[12:03] Vincent Nacon: :P
[12:03] Andrew Linden: I said I would run a little test over the weekend.
[12:03] Techwolf Lupindo: Andrew, I think a new record was set for largest office hour. :-)
[12:04] Andrew Linden: I did move some regions around, but they wre some private estates used mostly for aviation
[12:04] Vincent Nacon: not the largest, no.... you haven't seen Townhall meeting
[12:04] Andrew Linden: I was coordinating with Bobcatt Nielson and he did run some tests for me over the weekend
[12:04] Andrew Linden: the overall summary was "yes, region crossings were better on the moved regions"
[12:05] Andrew Linden: I think maybe Simon and others moved some Blake regions around yesterday. Is that true Simon?
[12:05] Andrew Linden: For test.
[12:05] Simon Linden: No, we didn't move them. Perhaps later today
[12:05] Andrew Linden: ok
[12:06] Simon Linden: I did a test using two of them, but we might move a bunch more
[12:06] Vincent Nacon: wth.... FireFox 8.0 is out already? what's with the version speeding?
[12:06] Kadah Coba: I've been getting lot of TP failures all weekend and several today. (I was gone all last week, so this was first time on in a while)
[12:06] Andrew Linden: We're still testing some kernels, but I think the 3.0.0 kernel shows an improvement.
[12:06] Imaze Rhiano: you mean - moving regions to other simulator machine solved issue?
[12:06] Tankmaster Finesmith: eveyone wants to mimic google
[12:06] Qie Niangao: (Incidentally, several have observed that region crossings are practically seamless on the LR game sims. Some even speculated that there was a secret "megasim" underneath.)
[12:06] Vincent Nacon: anyway...
[12:06] Andrew Linden: Dunno when/how we are going to upgrade the kernel yet.
[12:06] Rex Cronon: there is kind of competition between firefox, chrome...
[12:07] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Bumping all the way to 3?
[12:07] Andrew Linden: I'm not sure we'll go to 3.0.0. We were testing some others too that proved to be less susceptible to the problem.
[12:07] Techwolf Lupindo: I didn't know debian upgraded there stable kernel to 3.x sercies allready.
[12:08] Andrew Linden: When I know more for sure I'll bring it up here at User Group.
[12:08] Andrew Linden: Meanwhile... we've been getting reports that it isn't region crossings in general
[12:08] Andrew Linden: but the sending region can block for a few seconds when an avatar departs
[12:09] Andrew Linden: in the affected regions, which is probably the source of the region crossing problem
[12:09] Techwolf Lupindo: FreeBSD kernel has a good network stack. :-)
[12:10] Rex Cronon: so if the sim u r in is laggy, u r going to have problems when going to next sim?
[12:10] Andrew Linden: it is just that when crossing on a vehicle the success rate is severely affected (I'm guessing here, but it is an educated guess)
[12:10] Pauline Darkfury: There's some symptoms which do suggest there could be a bit of a region freeze on AV exit sometimes, but it's not a universal thing, just a minority that are having general issues at the time
[12:10] Vincent Nacon: not counting homesteads acrossing, right?
[12:10] Andrew Linden: Right, the problem is spotty.
[12:10] Kallista Destiny: There is alwasy a glitch on exit, it's just that it's usually small
[12:11] Kallista Destiny: A blip
[12:11] Andrew Linden: Ok I think that is all the news I've got.
[12:11] Pauline Darkfury: Support did some magic behind the scenes fixes for some of Surreal's regions a week or 2 ago (before Oct 25), where they confirmed there was basically _something_ bad about the region state, and not content or activity related
[12:12] Pauline Darkfury: They gave us the impression that it was a known issue of some sort
[12:12] Rex Cronon: so because the sender blocks for a few seconds, that messes the receiver?
[12:12] Simon Linden: We've seen a wide variety of performance too ... I did tests yesterday that ended up back on the same hardware types, and the 2nd round of tests was significantly faster than the first. It may be the region up-time, but it's still ugly
[12:12] Andrew Linden: Pauline, got any info about the phenomenology of the _something_?
[12:12] Andrew Linden: That is, what operations appeared to fail or suffer?
[12:13] Pauline Darkfury: No, sorry. You'd need to check with support. Cerze Ophelia (Surreal's owner) had the main ticket, weekend prior to Oct 25
[12:13] Kallista Destiny: Simon, as far as i can tell regions alwasy perform better when freshly booted, and that sloly degrades over time.
[12:13] Pauline Darkfury: Surreal's office region was one of the impacted regions, but we had a list of maybe 25-30 that had the issue (or potentially had it)
[12:13] Pauline Darkfury: (the office region is called "Surreal")
[12:14] Simon Linden: Yes, Kallista, we see the same. BOth performance and crash rates get worse over time
[12:14] Imaze Rhiano runs to kitchen to get some more tea...
[12:14] Pauline Darkfury: Symptoms were horrible periods of dilation & FPS which couldn't be explained by content or activity
[12:14] Simon Linden: That sounds like the system-wide problem we've been chasing with the new kernel
[12:15] Simon Linden: Was this was fairly recent?
[12:15] Pauline Darkfury: Right, yeah, that possibly fits
[12:15] Pauline Darkfury: Weekend of Oct 22/23
[12:15] Simon Linden: Yeah, that's it
[12:15] Leonel Iceghost: if a sim has physics lag and everything stops, other sims in the same server are able to keep comunications with viewers?
[12:16] Pauline Darkfury: The problems seemed to follow the regions across sim hosts on restart, some magic stuff behind the scenes fixed it for us
[12:16] Simon Linden: Yes Leonel, they are normally very independant
[12:16] Simon Linden: They can affect each other on the same server host if one region causes something to overload ... disk, memory or network
[12:17] Kallista Destiny: Question, how many NIC on each Physical server?
[12:18] Andrew Linden: I think the servers have two NIC's. One is internal and the other external.
[12:18] Tankmaster Finesmith: internal is in internal netowork?
[12:19] Imaze Rhiano: no memory leaks in sim?
[12:19] Andrew Linden: sorry, I meant that one was internal network, the other external
[12:19] Tankmaster Finesmith: ah ok
[12:19] Kallista Destiny: so 4 (7) regions need to share 300 om MB/sec of bandwidth?
[12:19] Tankmaster Finesmith was wondering what a internal NIC looked like :P
[12:19] Kallista Destiny: /om/odd/
[12:20] Pauline Darkfury: 300MBytes/sec is an odd number
[12:20] Kadah Coba: Inifiband :v
[12:20] Tankmaster Finesmith: they are likely 1Gb NIc, so at most 120MB/s
[12:20] Pauline Darkfury: Nominal for a 1Gbit/sec NIC would be 100MBytes/s, to allow for overheads
[12:20] Tankmaster Finesmith: 10Gbit is still a bit rare and expensive
[12:20] Simon Linden: I don't know the numbers, but someone closer to the operations side told me the network bandwidth is not a problem
[12:21] Kadah Coba: I think Infiniband goes up to 750gbit now
[12:22] Pauline Darkfury: Yeah, the various special purpose network types can go far beyond typical NICs
[12:22] Kallista Destiny: I sak because the bandwidth limitations of the PC I/O bus is som 300MB/sec which is the actualyy limitation on you 1 or 10 GB card.
[12:22] Andrew Linden: what is a good linux command to measure current bandwidth consumption?
[12:22] Kallista Destiny: b not B
[12:22] Kadah Coba: Isnt there something like ntop?
[12:22] Pauline Darkfury: MRTG on the SNMP stats would be my recommendation, Andrew
[12:23] Kallista Destiny: Yes MRTG is a VERY useful tool
[12:23] Pauline Darkfury: netstat -i might give you it, not sure if it gives rate as well though, or just totals
[12:23] Pauline Darkfury: "sh int" on the switch, if it's a Cisco will give you the 5 min rate
[12:23] Kallista Destiny: juat totals
[12:24] Kallista Destiny: You can hav MRTG just pool your cisco switches
[12:24] Imaze Rhiano: from my experience - if software system starts slowing down and throwing errors over time - then there is normally 3 causes: 1) memory leaks, 2) memory fragmentation or 3) system is doing paging/fragmentation to harddrive (could be caused by some other system running in server hardware too)
[12:24] Kallista Destiny: you do need a pretty heafty machine however to run MRTG on with your thousands of hosts
[12:24] Pauline Darkfury: Yeah, it's often best to monitor the SNMP stats of the switches, rather than the hosts themselves
[12:25] Kallista Destiny: Switches tend to have more bandwidth available than the hosts do
[12:27] Andrew Linden: I'm not positive about how to interpret the results...
[12:28] Andrew Linden: but the host running this region appears to have an RX rate of 100 - 200KiB (whatever KiB means)
[12:28] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: KibiBytes.
[12:29] Andrew Linden: and a TX rate fo 400 - 800KiB
[12:29] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: KiB is 1024 bytes instead of 1000.
[12:29] Andrew Linden: er, I take that back... RX jumped up to 1.2MiB
[12:29] Tankmaster Finesmith: the i denotes base 2 i believe
[12:29] Tankmaster Finesmith: or base 10, i forget which
[12:29] JoyofRLC Acker: iBytes?
[12:29] JoyofRLC Acker: OMG
[12:29] Pauline Darkfury: That sounds like well within 1Gbit/s NIC capabilities
[12:30] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Yeah, it's to the power of 2 instead of 10 as KB is.
[12:30] Pauline Darkfury: No, KBytes are powers of 2
[12:30] Pauline Darkfury: It's only the disk industry that uses powers of 10
[12:30] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Linux uses KiB a lot to prevent people from being confused.
[12:31] Kallista Destiny: It's only the Marketing types that use powers of 10
[12:31] Andrew Linden: ok, so 1KiB = 1024B ?
[12:31] Tankmaster Finesmith: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KiB
[12:31] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Yes Andrew.
[12:31] Tankmaster Finesmith: yes, andrew
[12:31] Tankmaster Finesmith: and KB = 1000
[12:31] Imaze Rhiano: huh?
[12:31] Andrew Linden: and RX and TX? Input and output?
[12:32] Pauline Darkfury: Receive & Transmit
[12:32] Andrew Linden: Yeah, I'm not going to worry about network contention.
[12:32] Imaze Rhiano: "In December 1998, the IEC attempted to address these dual definitions of the conventional prefixes by proposing unique binary prefixes and prefix symbols to denote multiples of 1024, such as “kibibyte (KiB)”, which exclusively denotes 210 or 1024 bytes.[12] If the proposal had been widely and consistently adopted, it would have liberated the standard unit prefixes to unambiguously refer only to their strict decimal definitions wherein kilobyte would be understood to represent only 1000 bytes. However, in the over-12 years that have since elapsed, the proposal has seen little adoption by the computer industry"
[12:32] Techwolf Lupindo: There are actually small radios in NIC. Just basicd A/D and D/A converters.
[12:33] Imaze Rhiano: 1998 - first time for me hearing KiBytes...
[12:33] Techwolf Lupindo: Hance why the RX and TX .
[12:33] Pauline Darkfury: Would be a GoodThing™ for LL ops to have a MRTG view of the switches, but doesn't would like it's the major issue
[12:33] Techwolf Lupindo: And in the very old days, simplex.
[12:34] Kallista Destiny: 10base2
[12:34] Techwolf Lupindo: Token ring.
[12:34] Techwolf Lupindo: :-)
[12:34] Techwolf Lupindo: I"me surpized LL doens't have MRTG set up allready.
[12:34] Pauline Darkfury: 10b5 with vampire taps, if you want the ultimate in inconvenient networking ;)
[12:34] Andrew Linden: what is MRTG?
[12:34] Kallista Destiny: Which was deigned to bot degrade unde load...
[12:35] Simon Linden: http://oss.oetiker.ch/mrtg/
[12:35] Techwolf Lupindo: They spent $$$$$$$$$ on the new datacenters and don't have any network monitory at all...
[12:35] Kallista Destiny: Multi Router Traffic Graphing
[12:35] Andrew Linden: Ah I see.
[12:35] Tankmaster Finesmith: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MRTG
[12:35] Pauline Darkfury: MRTG is _the_ industry standard for monitoring router & switch port traffic stats
[12:35] Andrew Linden: Actually we have such diagnostics and history
[12:35] Andrew Linden: I've received links to certain hosts in the past.
[12:35] Kallista Destiny: It rocks... Hugely
[12:35] Andrew Linden: I can't remember where to find them
[12:35] Simon Linden: uh, the people here aren't close to that end of the system. I'm sure they have some good tools to look at the traffic
[12:36] Andrew Linden: Ah ha! Our main internal page has a link to "Multi Router Tracking Grapher"
[12:36] Kallista Destiny: That was how we convinced a very restant department that their Mail server needed a lot more badwidth.
[12:37] Kallista Destiny: ((that is then needed to move to a newer machine))
[12:37] Andrew Linden: hrm... not all hosts are have MTRG data. It looks like just the main switches.
[12:37] Kallista Destiny: ((Cheap bastriches))
[12:38] Kallista Destiny: Does it just shoe th agragate traffic on the switches? or each port on the switch?
[12:38] Pauline Darkfury: You can slice & dice the data in just about any way the switch's SNMP OIDs allow
[12:39] Kallista Destiny: each port SHOULD be equivalent to all hosts
[12:39] Pauline Darkfury: Normally per-port stats, sometimes aggregate switch stats (particularly if you have switches that can't run at 100% on all ports)
[12:39] Vincent Nacon: any sign of Falcon, Simon?
[12:39] Kallista Destiny: Yeah... there is a tool that comes with MRTG that does the initial setup
[12:40] Leonel Iceghost: is there any synchronous comunications with external services to the host? I remember when 80k users logged at the same time in SL everything lagged bad
[12:40] Andrew Linden: Falcon is in, but currently busy.
[12:40] Vincent Nacon: ah ok, best to leave him be
[12:40] Pauline Darkfury: So, before we run out of time. Worth mentioning today's main channel roll was rather rough
[12:40] Andrew Linden: These days we have dedicated stacks of servers to most services
[12:40] Andrew Linden: so we distribute the load of any particular service consumption across many hosts
[12:40] Pauline Darkfury: 25 known problem regions at Surreal (out of 250+). 19 out of 105 for a friend
[12:40] Andrew Linden: and we can expand the stacks as necessary
[12:41] JoyofRLC Acker: Pauline you mean rough doing it?
[12:41] Pauline Darkfury: Issues with the roll seem to be fixed now
[12:41] JoyofRLC Acker: Yes
[12:41] Pauline Darkfury: I mean regions down for hours
[12:41] Simon Linden: Yep, it hit the fan this morning
[12:41] JoyofRLC Acker: On VERY limited test , end result seems GOOD
[12:41] JoyofRLC Acker: let me repeat that G O O D
[12:41] Techwolf Lupindo: Was there any change to server notice for restart? ( https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7153 )
[12:41] JIRA-helper: [#SVC-7153] Region Restart notifications are no longer noticeable
[12:41] Andrew Linden: what test are you refering to JoyofRLC?
[12:41] JoyofRLC Acker: thats in Eastern lake and Sailors Cove
[12:41] Pauline Darkfury: I'd expect the number of problem regions at Surreal were more like 50 out of 250, it was just 25 I had on my personal list
[12:42] JoyofRLC Acker: We actually ran a race succesfully with 7 boats
[12:42] JoyofRLC Acker: NO crashes
[12:42] JoyofRLC Acker: (well I fran aground but havent found awya to blame LL for that yet)
[12:42] JoyofRLC Acker: TD was good
[12:42] Andrew Linden: JoyofRLC, did anything change there that you know of?
[12:42] Simon Linden: Was that fairly soon after the regions had been restarted?
[12:42] JoyofRLC Acker: yes post restart
[12:43] JoyofRLC Acker: I will get more info over the next 24 hours
[12:43] Falcon Linden: Hey folks, I have approximately 2 minutes, but I hear I was requested
[12:43] JoyofRLC Acker: before we ge tooo excited... we have seen things start good and then fall off but did want to say so far so good !
[12:43] Tankmaster Finesmith: welcome falcon
[12:44] Tankmaster Finesmith: so who had the question for falcon?
[12:44] Vincent Nacon: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7415
[12:44] JIRA-helper: [#SVC-7415] llSetKeyFramedMotion skipping position distance worst over given time
[12:44] Vincent Nacon: that
[12:44] Simon Linden: Right Joy, that happens ... behavior slowly degrades over time and usage. The restarts help, but it will get slow again
[12:44] Falcon Linden: vincent: saw it. Maestro couldn't repro it. We'll need a clean repro case to investigate further
[12:44] Vincent Nacon: didn't want to bother him when he's working but oh well
[12:44] Andrew Linden: I'm going to have to run to another meeting a little early today.
[12:44] Imaze Rhiano: bye andrew
[12:44] Falcon Linden: I'm actually going to the same meeting
[12:44] Kallista Destiny: Joy we were discussing performance degradation over time earlier
[12:44] Vincent Nacon: yeah but there are other people was able to repo it
[12:44] Falcon Linden: Vincent: I suggest working with Maestro to repro it
[12:45] Tankmaster Finesmith: thx for your time, andrew
[12:45] Falcon Linden: Now, I'm off to my own other meeting :)
[12:45] Tankmaster Finesmith: tc falcon
[12:45] Rex Cronon: tc falcon
[12:45] Rex Cronon: tc andrew
[12:45] Pauline Darkfury: Take care, Andrew, thanks :)
[12:45] Vincent Nacon: and problem is... I'm not sure how or what is the difference between us and Maestro
[12:45] Pauline Darkfury: and Falcon
[12:45] Falcon Linden: Vincent: that's why repros are hard :)
[12:45] Vincent Nacon: yup
[12:45] Imaze Rhiano: they have super powers that you don't have
[12:45] Simon Linden: So I guess I'm left to serve tea and cookies .... any requests?
[12:46] Tankmaster Finesmith wants snickerdoodles
[12:46] Kallista Destiny: Godmode
[12:46] Flip Idlemind stuffed oreos
[12:46] Vincent Nacon: wait... you don't have to attend that meeting, Simon?
[12:46] Liisa Runo: african roots tea and chocolate chips cookie with baked in cannabutter for me thanks
[12:46] Simon Linden: No, that's another small group
[12:46] Kallista Destiny: As opposed to godmod (no E)
[12:46] JoyofRLC Acker: any wine? surely sun is over the yardarm somewhere>
[12:47] Object: Hello, Avatar!
[12:47] ANSI Soderstrom: Hello Object with the UUID 98a66492-5ec0-8fdf-66d1-b8a9d252903c
[12:47] Simon Linden: Sure, pass it around :)
[12:47] Kallista Destiny: Splice the mainbrace
[12:47] Tankmaster Finesmith notes a grammatical error in ANSI's script
[12:47] Simon Linden: But seriously ... are there any new topics or jiras ?
[12:47] Rex Cronon: new topics?
[12:47] JoyofRLC Acker: I have a question
[12:47] Imaze Rhiano: what kind viewer you need for llSetKeyframedMotion?
[12:47] Ansi Soderstrom: items not loading on bluesteel ?
[12:48] Simon Linden: Sure, what is it, Joy?
[12:48] Kelly Linden: LSL calls should require no special viewer.
[12:48] Kitto Flora: The Nakiska/Smithers Bluff problem - but is LL sure that caused by some known general problem?
[12:48] Simon Linden: Right, that shouldn't require a new viewer
[12:48] JoyofRLC Acker: My apologies if ive missed it in a forum, but the test being done over the weekend?
[12:48] JoyofRLC Acker: On NAdrews borrowed sims... how did it go?
[12:48] Imaze Rhiano: umm... some different sim then?
[12:49] Vincent Nacon: you missed out the news at the start of the meeting
[12:49] Vincent Nacon: let me scroll up for ya
[12:49] JoyofRLC Acker: yes my apologies for being late
[12:49] Simon Linden: Andrew ran a limited test over the weekend, I did another yesterday. We got some interesting results, which was partially applied this morning. Unfortuantely, some complications led to the rollout problems
[12:49] JoyofRLC Acker: kk
[12:49] JoyofRLC Acker: ummm intersting how?
[12:50] Kelly Linden: imaze: It looks like llSetKeyframedMotion is in "DRTSIM-105" which is I think on Magnum
[12:50] JoyofRLC Acker: perhpas i should wait for the transcript to be published and i can IM follow up questins?
[12:50] Vincent Nacon: n/m Simon got it covered for ya :)
[12:50] Kelly Linden hopes he got that right.
[12:50] Simon Linden: well, at a basic level, it seems obvious: using more powerful hardware is better, and regions that are physically closer (in the same colo) have faster region crossings than if they are on the opposite side of the country
[12:51] Vincent Nacon: yes Magnum
[12:51] Imaze Rhiano: thanks kelly
[12:51] Techwolf Lupindo: "[12:47] Simon Linden: But seriously ... are there any new topics or jiras ?" Like SVC-7153 ? I like to know what was changed the server restart notice.
[12:51] Simon Linden: but we're looking at using that in a much better way to increase performance
[12:51] Kelly Linden: Techwolf: We did not intentionally change that message on the server side to my knowledge.
[12:52] Simon Linden: I'm not sure about SVC-7153 ... that was created back in August
[12:53] Techwolf Lupindo: We notice it this morning, I got that local chat notice earler, it wasn't a drop down.
[12:53] Kelly Linden: Could it be a viewer issue?
[12:53] Techwolf Lupindo: No code was changed.
[12:53] Vincent Nacon: look like it
[12:54] Vincent Nacon: even it's not as noticable in FS but it still come through
[12:54] Kadah Coba: Sounds like its using the wrong notice type.
[12:54] Techwolf Lupindo: I"me going to look into it later today.
[12:54] Simon Linden: I personally find the notifications hard to see in V3, but I'm pretty sure that's getting some attention
[12:54] Techwolf Lupindo: The code that handle that msg only does notications, no IM in local chat calls.
[12:54] Simon Linden: Those floating icons in the upper right are going to get some kind of grouping,I think
[12:54] Vincent Nacon: maybe it's possible that it did come up but you missed it?
[12:55] Vincent Nacon: before it went away?
[12:55] Techwolf Lupindo: Nope.
[12:55] Techwolf Lupindo: ITs a big yellow drop down box. What happen about an hour ago was just a notice in local chat.
[12:55] Techwolf Lupindo: LL restart didn't trigger a huge drop down.
[12:56] Kallista Destiny snickers " 'I dwell in darkness without you.' and it went away?"
[12:56] Techwolf Lupindo: I just happend to notice in local chat: [11:56] Second Life: Your region will restart in 5 minutes and 0 seconds for maintenance.
[12:56] Simon Linden: I'd be willing to bet there's a jira somewhere that says "get rid of the obnoxious big drop-down alert for restarts"
[12:56] Techwolf Lupindo: Simon, LOL
[12:56] Vincent Nacon: there was
[12:57] Vincent Nacon: even for money
[12:57] Pauline Darkfury: Ahhh yeah, can we PLEASE have the popups back for LL maint restarts
[12:57] Vincent Nacon: and permissions
[12:57] Kallista Destiny: You need a vote NO our UNWatch feature for JIRA
[12:57] Pauline Darkfury: That causes no end of pain
[12:57] Flip Idlemind: My viewer has an actual countdown timer for region restarts
[12:57] Flip Idlemind: :D
[12:57] Techwolf Lupindo: I can't reopen that issue eaither.
[12:57] Ansi Soderstrom: can we get this messages for scripts too ?
[12:57] Ansi Soderstrom: e.g. shout them on llRegionSay
[12:57] Flip Idlemind: I'm a little bit obsessed with really precise time
[12:58] Simon Linden: ANSI - you mean you want a script to detect the pending restart?
[12:58] Ansi Soderstrom: maybe on the debug channel ?
[12:58] Ansi Soderstrom: yes, please :)
[12:58] Ansi Soderstrom: i´ ll spend a class of coke :)
[12:58] Kallista Destiny: NO, please donlt echo the debug channel
[12:58] Kallista Destiny: some other specific channel please
[12:58] Pauline Darkfury: No, keep debug channel for debugging, warnings, errors, only
[12:59] Kallista Destiny: DEBUG-1 or something
[12:59] Ansi Soderstrom: it is a warning, isnt it ?
[12:59] Flip Idlemind: Warning: Region about to restart
[12:59] Imaze Rhiano: why would script want to know that server is restarting?
[12:59] Rex Cronon: sometimes some scripts need to know when sim restarts
[12:59] Simon Linden: yes, I don't think we want to add more functionality to the debug channel
[12:59] Rex Cronon: to save state
[12:59] Ansi Soderstrom: then i can bug a other script on a other sim to read the region state instead of polling every minute
[12:59] Ansi Soderstrom: this causes lag
[13:00] Pauline Darkfury: Personally, I think a changed event is probably the right approach
[13:00] Kallista Destiny: Lots of cripts would 'like' to know that the region is goinf down.
[13:00] Pauline Darkfury: Something like CHANGED_REGION_STOPPING when the normal counter hits 0, then allow 30-60s for them to do their thing, before the actual stop
[13:00] JoyofRLC Acker shouts: and sailors!
[13:00] Rex Cronon: the lindesn seem very reluctant to add any new events:(
[13:00] JoyofRLC Acker: timne to put pfd on
[13:00] JoyofRLC Acker: lmao
[13:00] Kelly Linden: Adding anything to the changed event breaks a lot of scripts.
[13:00] Vincent Nacon: shhh
[13:00] Imaze Rhiano: ya.. new changed event if necessary - thought server restarts should be invisible for scripts
[13:00] Flip Idlemind: There's llRequestSimulatorData, which could theoretically return "stopping" if the region is about to restart
[13:01] Flip Idlemind: But I don't think it does that now
[13:01] Kallista Destiny: too much time, 10 seconds,
[13:01] Ansi Soderstrom: if i want to watch the states of 60 sims i have a problem
[13:01] JoyofRLC Acker: also when about to crash too .... * giggles
[13:01] Kallista Destiny: regions already take too long to restart.
[13:01] Kitto Flora: The big problem is that sims 'go down' - that is they become invisible, and not enterable, BUT the scripts in them keep running.
[13:01] Ansi Soderstrom: because i have place watcher scripts on 15 sims and poll every minute
[13:01] Pauline Darkfury: Restarts are anything but invisible for scripts
[13:01] Simon Linden: I don't think you'd want to poll that, FLIP. The changed event makes sense, but as Kelly mentions, adding things there tends to break scripts
[13:01] Ansi Soderstrom: insteat of watching the state IF a SIM is restarting in the next 5 mintes
[13:02] Kallista Destiny: Yeah but shutdown isnd
[13:02] Pauline Darkfury: Restarts destroy any HTTP URLs, plus cause a timewarp type thing for anything which cares about time
[13:02] Ansi Soderstrom: changed is fired if the region is up again
[13:02] Rex Cronon: how could adding an even break scripts?
[13:02] Ansi Soderstrom: thats too late
[13:02] Rex Cronon: an event*
[13:02] Kelly Linden: you can detect a restart after the fact. And even if there were a pre-emptive event or notice it would only catch intentional shutdowns.
[13:02] Kallista Destiny: scripts that are not well written
[13:03] Ansi Soderstrom: yes kelly
[13:03] Imaze Rhiano: scripts that don't check changed event properly
[13:03] Rex Cronon: they don't know it exists, they don't use it, so u can't brea them
[13:03] Kallista Destiny: YEs but for many well manged regions intentional shutdowns are the normal shutdown
[13:03] Leonel Iceghost: how can it break scripts? the changed event has flags for that
[13:03] Pauline Darkfury: Most of the impact is properly dealt with via CHANGED_REGION_START
[13:03] Simon Linden: I need to get going ... thanks everyone for coming today
[13:03] JoyofRLC Acker: may i ask a very ignorant question about restarts?
[13:03] Vincent Nacon: take care and all
[13:03] Pauline Darkfury: Thanks, Simon, take care
[13:03] Kelly Linden: Scripts are written to handle the events they get. The changed event in particular is abused and frequently not filtered properly because it doesn't need to. In these cases getting an extra changed event can break the object.
[13:03] Kallista Destiny: THanks Simon
[13:03] JoyofRLC Acker: Thank yo Simon.
[13:03] Simon Linden: Sure Joy, is it quick?
[13:03] Rex Cronon: tc simon
[13:03] Kelly Linden: Bye!
[13:04] JoyofRLC Acker: maybe as cripter can help meoff line
[13:04] Pauline Darkfury: I have little sympathy with folks that don't do the bitmask correctly in changed, tbh, Kelly
[13:04] JoyofRLC Acker: I believe the SL clocks reset>
[13:04] Kallista Destiny: bye Kelly
[13:04] Rex Cronon: ok
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