Open Source Meeting/Agenda/2007-10-25

< Open Source Meeting
Open source meeting - Thursday, 2pm PT.
Teleport to the Linden Open Source Project headquarters.
== Agenda ==
* Is it worth discussing the build process? The process for VS2005 Express seems unduly complicated. There was some talk in the forum about cmake and build problems on the Mac. Is there a plan to make things simpler? Is it documented anywhere?
* OpenAL any progress other than Callums patch? Any chance of streaming audio etc?
* 64 bit issues VWR-2739, VWR-2789 both 64 bit portability issues in the code, any other portability issues?
* OpenJPEG, - latest svn still needs VWR-2652 to enable viewer to build against. Are LL shipping updated OpenJPEGs now newer than 1.2
and do they have debug symbols etc whats long term plans WRT openjpeg.
* VWR - 2834 - Can't pull off a standalone build with out patches on 1.18.4.0 RC.
* Wiki namespace, use of "Proposal:" namespace before main namespace? (and, use (JIRA) MISC-0000 for optional consensus?)
== Transcript ==
* [14:05] Rob Linden: First item: Is it worth discussing the build process? The process for VS2005 Express seems unduly complicated. There was some talk in the forum about cmake and build problems on the Mac. Is there a plan to make things simpler? Is it documented anywhere?
* [14:05] Rob Linden: we don't yet have any resources dedicated or commitment made to switch to cmake, but folks at Linden Lab are pretty receptive to the idea
* [14:05] Mm Alder: I added that. Building on VS2005 Express seems like such a pain.
* [14:06] Rob Linden: I filed a placeholder issue in JIRA
* [14:06] Rob Linden: looks up number
* [14:06] Dale Glass: Well, I would really like having the same build process everywhere. Currently I have to set things up twice, separately
* [14:06] Seg Baphomet: There's apparently a lot of support for cmake within Linden Lab, but no one seems to be committing to do it, inside or out.
* [14:06] Rob Linden: VWR-2871
* [14:06] Dale Glass: and since I have no mac, it definitely doesn't build there without fixing the project files
* [14:06] Dale Glass: which I can't really do
* [14:07] Rob Linden: (all clicky linky now)
* [14:07] Rob Linden: vote early vote often
* [14:08] Mm Alder: So what's the point? Wait for Cmake?
* [14:08] Seg Baphomet: Is someone working on cmake? :)
* [14:09] Rob Linden: not necessarily, but I think if you're waiting on Linden Lab to fix it, that's probably the route we'd take
* [14:09] Q Linden: I can imagine one of us adopting it at a transition point, but for me, anyway, now's a lousy time.
* [14:09] Soft Linden: Well, the Mac problem is a separate one we should address regardless of whether cmake happens. And VS 2005 will stop being a problem after havok4 is deployed as we'll all move to VS2005 internally... I'm not sure if a cmake migration would happen before those happen.
* [14:09] Dale Glass: huh, russian music
* [14:09] Mm Alder: OK, so the VS2005 project files: are they supposed to be operable?
* [14:09] Dzonatas Sol: I could see an early adoption if scons called cmake to create a package
* [14:10] Burhop Piccard: Now you are moving to VS2005?
* [14:10] Dzonatas Sol: so i voted it for that
* [14:10] Soft Linden: After havok4 is the norm across the grid, we'll move to VS2005 or newer.
* [14:10] Soft Linden: So long as devs need to build against havok1, they're tied to VS2003 on Windows.
* [14:10] Michelle2 Zenovka: If cmake is not short term can we at least patch up the current build so at least on 64 bit linux you get a complete build, only a couple of patches needed to get the minimum of things together
* [14:10] Burhop Piccard: ok - I fear you will alwasy be 1 version behind me :-(
* [14:11] Soft Linden: What's wrong on the 64 bit Linux build right now?
* [14:11] Rob Linden: Michelle2: are the patches in JIRA?
* [14:11] Seg Baphomet: Considering no one has commited to doing cmake yet, I wouldn't count on cmake.
* [14:11] Michelle2 Zenovka: if you don't do things your self viewer-manifest.py is incomplete
* [14:11] Soft Linden: What's the JIRA on that?
* [14:11] Michelle2 Zenovka: just looking
* [14:12] Rob Linden: Agree with Seg: you shouldn't necessarily wait aroudn for cmake.
* [14:12] Soft Linden: VWR-2739, VWR-2789
* [14:12] Michelle2 Zenovka: Its under vwr-2488
* [14:12] Dale Glass: oh yeah, I haven't tried 64 bit builds in a long time. Does it use different paths for the files generated for different architectures?
* [14:12] Michelle2 Zenovka: Yes, linux and linux 64 are different paths in manifiest.py
* [14:14] Mm Alder: So when will Havok 4 be done and VS2005 be the standard at LL? Weeks? Months?
* [14:15] Prospero Linden: It's very hard to say.
* [14:15] Rob Linden: Mm: hard to say for sure. probably months, but not very many of them
* [14:15] Prospero Linden: The devs are still stomping bugs found in the Havok4 beta.
* [14:15] Seg Baphomet: Did the avatar physics get fixed?
* [14:16] Seg Baphomet: They seemed to be completely nonfunctional in the inital test.
* [14:16] Mm Alder: OK, so a long while back, someone made working project files for VS2005, but they stayed on the JIRA and were never imported so they were recreated for every release. Can't we get working 2005 project files?
* [14:16] Rob Linden: Seg: not sure....the folks working on havok are really good about keeping up with pjira
* [14:17] Rob Linden: Mm: I haven't found any developers willing to commit to keeping those up-to-date at LL, and I can't commit myself
* [14:17] Rob Linden: when we move to VS 2005, they'll be kept up-to-date
* [14:18] Soft Linden: Michelle, the changes look pretty straightforward. I'll see if I can get the two stand-alone issues resolved this week.
* [14:18] Michelle2 Zenovka: Thanks soft
* [14:18] Mm Alder: Why were the fixes never imported?
* [14:18] Soft Linden: Mm - the project file fixes?
* [14:18] Mm Alder: yes
* [14:19] Rob Linden: it may be as simple as that they never showed up on a bug triage agenda
* [14:19] Soft Linden: Our internal project files are a superset of what's exported here, so an upstream merge on the project files could be destructive.
* [14:19] Rob Linden: ah...what Soft said
* [14:19] Mm Alder: But I thought you weren't using VS2005?
* [14:20] Soft Linden: The havok4 guys are. And if we make changes that then get merged up into the main common tree and go back down to havok4, it would damage their project.
* [14:20] Dzonatas Sol: Mm, I do have a scons version that builds it all under vs2005, if you are interested.
* [14:21] Seg Baphomet: Is it available as a patch? :)
* [14:21] Mm Alder: I don't know what a scons version is, but if it keeps me from having to convert the 2003 project files every time, I'd be very happy?
* [14:22] Dzonatas Sol: It is in a repositort (OSLCC) waiting for further feedback. =)
* [14:22] Soft Linden: If it helps, someone could go ahead and link to the jira with the fixed 2005 files from the source download page, or maintain 2005 project files in the secondlife.com svn repository.
* [14:23] Mm Alder: I don't have approval to sign the contributors agreement, otherwise I'd puth them in the SVN. Someday...
* [14:23] Dzonatas Sol: At this point I'm unsure which direction to take the win/scons version.
* [14:23] Dzonatas Sol: It works great for me
* [14:24] Dzonatas Sol: on linux and windows
* [14:24] Mm Alder: Sos: got a link?
* [14:24] Mm Alder: I mean Sol:
* [14:24] Michelle2 Zenovka: Wan't that the point of scons to be a unified build solution, that never quite got there
* [14:24] Dzonatas Sol: mmhmm one sec
* [14:26] Wyn Galbraith: Sorry my voice button won't turn off.
* [14:26] Rob Linden: Dzonatas: if it's a substantial improvement over the existing scons file, sign a contrib agreement and submit it
* [14:26] Dale Glass: wiki is being awful today
* [14:27] Wyn Galbraith: Hasn't been my day today.
* [14:27] Squirrel Wood: just a quick question..... What's the status on Mono?
* [14:27] Dzonatas Sol: here is the link of a 1.18.0.6 version
* [14:27] Kooky Jetaime: chuckles at the fedora particles... nice
* [14:27] Rob Linden: can we move onto the next topic?
* [14:28] Dzonatas Sol: notes the agreement
* [14:28] Rob Linden: next: OpenAL any progress other than Callums patch? Any chance of streaming audio etc?
* [14:28] Rob Linden: Callum/Seg has already posted status to sldev
* [14:28] Michelle2 Zenovka: Callum posted a statment on SLDEV easlier today that may me worth mentioning
* [14:28] Seg Baphomet: I got my CA in.
* [14:28] Rob Linden: yay
* [14:28] Soft Linden: Squirrel - Mono's kind of where Havok4 is. Chasing down changes affecting existing content. I don't think anyone would do a service by putting a final date on it yet.
* [14:29] Seg Baphomet: I'm trying to polish up the patch for submission but my test boxen are being very non-cooperative. ;P
* [14:29] Soft Linden: Sweet!
* [14:29] Michelle2 Zenovka: I'm up for testing if you want
* [14:30] Soft Linden: Ditto here. I'd gladly give it some attention on Mac if that would make sense yet.
* [14:30] Rob Linden: I suspect you may find a number of willing testers even for an undone patch, though I can understand not wanting to support something that's not done
* [14:30] Seg Baphomet: That's something I need. Non Linux testing.
* [14:31] Seg Baphomet: I think that's the main issue right now. The build system.
* [14:31] Rob Linden: is it just a straight up replacement of FMOD, or is it an abstraction? Not that we have a need to keep FMOD that I'm aware of, but just curious
* [14:31] Seg Baphomet: Make OpenAL and fmod selectable during build.
* [14:31] Seg Baphomet: It was abstracted already. :)
* [14:32] Squirrel Wood: isn't fmod used for the doppler effect ?
* [14:32] Michelle2 Zenovka: a build option would be best i think, open AL has a doppler too?
* [14:32] Seg Baphomet: I was able to drop it in without disturbing anything else. Well, except for the WAV writer.
* [14:32] Rob Linden: Seg: great! that I think would make it much easier to ship sooner
* [14:33] Seg Baphomet: I discovered the WAV writer writes broken WAVs, and freealut refused to read them.
* [14:33] Michelle2 Zenovka: is that the 12 extra bytes on the wav header ot sothing else compleley?
* [14:34] Seg Baphomet: It gets the lengths in the headers wrong.
* [14:34] Seg Baphomet: I really don't understand why.
* [14:34] Squirrel Wood: is there a jira yet on the fact that cached sound files are wiped of the cache when you exit SL ? (on windows)
* [14:34] Soft Linden: Could you file that as a bug? It would be good to fix the fmod use to be correct, rather than emulating broken behavior with your own code.
* [14:35] Seg Baphomet: I "fixed" the wav writer.
* [14:35] Seg Baphomet: By "fixed" I mean "hacked it to work".
* [14:36] Rob Linden: that still may be good to separate out into a separate bug/patch
* [14:36] Prospero Linden: Seg : is there anything more to fixed than that? :)
* [14:36] Prospero Linden: wonders if his cat might have something to say about "fixed".
* [14:36] Seg Baphomet: Thing is, there's some code in there complaining about vorbis ruining loop points
* [14:36] Seg Baphomet: And it hacks around with doing a crossfade.
* [14:36] Wyn Galbraith: I don't think my cat noticed his fixing.
* [14:37] Seg Baphomet: I'm wondering if the broken WAV writing is the actual bug. :)
* [14:37] Soft Linden: It would be amusing if so!
* [14:38] Seg Baphomet: Or maybe the crossfade hack is breaking it. Or something.
* [14:39] Seg Baphomet: The code makes my head hurt at any rate. ;P
* [14:39] Rob Linden: sounds like things are continuing apace at any rate. This is great stuff!
* [14:39] Soft Linden: So it sounds like the thing to do here is to point out when things are ready for others to help with testing.
* [14:39] Rob Linden: we're really glad you're digging into this stuff Seg
* [14:39] Dzonatas Sol: yes very good
* [14:39] Michelle2 Zenovka: Yes i am too, full openAL woule be great!
* [14:39] Prospero Linden: +1
* [14:40] Soft Linden: grins.
* [14:40] Rob Linden: should we move on?
* [14:40] Rob Linden: next on the agenda is the 64-bit stuff, which we already covered. anything else to add theere, or move past that?
* [14:40] Michelle2 Zenovka: Some 64 bit related building issues not yet covered
* [14:41] Rob Linden: k....as posted in the agenda: 64 bit issues VWR-2739, VWR-2789 both 64 bit portability issues in the code, any other portability issues?
* [14:41] Soft Linden: The time_t issue is imported, and I'll look at the packaging issue. The other, it would really help if someone running 64 bit Linux could dig into that themselves.
* [14:41] Michelle2 Zenovka: On my todo list
* [14:41] Soft Linden: The daylight issue
* [14:41] Soft Linden: Cool
* [14:42] Michelle2 Zenovka: try to look this weekend
* [14:42] Rob Linden: anyone else here using 64-bit linux? I am at home
* [14:42] Michelle2 Zenovka: Seg?
* [14:42] Dale Glass: me, although I run SL in 32 bit currently
* [14:42] Seg Baphomet: I've never noticed the daylight issue but I can double check.
* [14:42] Seg Baphomet: My wife has a 64bit laptop.
* [14:42] Dale Glass: does the standard viewer (without openal) fully work in 64 bit?
* [14:42] Soft Linden: Actually, Michelle2 - if you could post a Repro for Dummies to that, it could help a lot for other 64 bit users.
* [14:43] Michelle2 Zenovka: Ok sure
* [14:43] Seg Baphomet: Getting it away from her to test isn't easy. :)
* [14:43] Seg Baphomet: My 64bit desktop likes to lock up when running SL. Bleh.
* [14:44] Michelle2 Zenovka: I am *very* stable on 64 bit now
* [14:44] Dale Glass: I mean, does it have sound? I think it didn't when I tried it
* [14:44] Michelle2 Zenovka: Only if i use Callums patch :-)
* [14:44] Dale Glass: ok
* [14:44] Seg Baphomet: OpenAL works fine on x86_64.
* [14:45] Seg Baphomet: My wife's laptop was one of the main test subjects. :)
* [14:45] Michelle2 Zenovka: I run it constantly so 64 bit issues are important to me
* [14:45] Wyn Galbraith: Sorry, I have to run. Took a part time temp job and have to drive to it in RL instead of TP.
* [14:46] Seg Baphomet: Really the fact that post-voice viewers seem to run like ass on 512mb is kind of been a problem.
* [14:46] Wyn Galbraith: Seya.
* [14:47] Michelle2 Zenovka: Well i do still watch the viewer chew memory until it starts swapping then in runs like adog
* [14:48] Squirrel Wood: If you only have 512mb then I strongly suggest an upgrade to at least 1GB of ram ^^
* [14:48] Seg Baphomet: Are you going to buy it for me?
* [14:48] Squirrel Wood: its not that expensive
* [14:48] Kooky Jetaime: SL runs great on 3G :)
* [14:49] Mm Alder: Anything else on the agenda?
* [14:49] Squirrel Wood: you can get 512mb for as cheap as $28
* [14:49] Michelle2 Zenovka: openjpeg update was next
* [14:49] Rob Linden: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source_Meeting/Agenda
* [14:49] Squirrel Wood: if not less
* [14:49] Rob Linden: next up: OpenJPEG
* [14:49] Seg Baphomet: 1.18.0.6 ran fine on 512mb. I see no reason requirements should increase.
* [14:49] Rob Linden: my undertstanding is that 1.2 is the latest released version
* [14:49] Michelle2 Zenovka: svn has lots of nice fixes though
* [14:49] Michelle2 Zenovka: thanks seg
* [14:49] Rob Linden: very doubtful we'd run an svn snapshot
* [14:50] Rob Linden: is 1.3 due soon?
* [14:50] Seg Baphomet: I've been working on polishing off the vectorized DWT patch.
* [14:50] Soft Linden: I'm confused about the comments on VWR-2652 - where does this actually stand, with regard to whether it's needed?
* [14:51] Michelle2 Zenovka: Its needed for NEWER than the released 1.2
* [14:51] Michelle2 Zenovka: so untill Openjpeg release an update its on ice
* [14:51] Seg Baphomet: Its required to compile SVN, and presumably the next release.
* [14:52] Seg Baphomet: Does it work with 1.2?
* [14:52] Michelle2 Zenovka: yes
* [14:52] Michelle2 Zenovka: i switched binarys of openjpeg with a viewer with VWR2652 patch, no problems
* [14:52] Seg Baphomet: Then it may well be merged ASAP. :)
* [14:52] Seg Baphomet: What about compiling against 1.2 though?
* [14:53] Michelle2 Zenovka: no problem, it swaps an unused parameter for NULL thats all and SVN expects NULL where as the old parameter just was not used
* [14:54] Seg Baphomet: I personally went some time without compiling a new viewer, using bleeding edge SVN OpenJPEG so I know that works. :)
* [14:54] Seg Baphomet: I was confused for a bit when I finally compiled a new viewer and it failed. :)
* [14:54] Soft Linden: Alright. This looks straighforward, I'll just go ahead and take it.
* [14:55] Michelle2 Zenovka: nice they kept binary compatability though
* [14:55] Seg Baphomet: Anyway. So there's really no reason to wait on this patch.
* [14:55] Rob Linden: JIRA workflow tip: when an issue is resolved "need more info", and then you provide more info, reopen the issue
* [14:55] Michelle2 Zenovka: blushes
* [14:56] Seg Baphomet: The idea of "resolving" a bug "needsmoreinfo" kinda confuses me.
* [14:56] Seg Baphomet: But then I'm used to Bugzilla.
* [14:56] Seg Baphomet: Jira seems to love resolving things. :)
* [14:56] Rob Linden: dont' worry about being confused about JIRA. You're in good (and ample) company
* [14:56] Rob Linden: :)
* [14:57] Seg Baphomet: Not that I
* [14:57] Seg Baphomet: ... would wish bugzilla on anyone. :)
* [14:57] Rob Linden: anyhoo.....sounds like we have a resolution here
* [14:58] Seg Baphomet: Anyway. What is the status on upgrading to OPJ 1.2 anyway?
* [14:58] Seg Baphomet: Is it in 1.18.4?
* [14:58] Rob Linden: Seg: my understanding was that Bos/Sardonyx did that
* [14:58] Rob Linden: not sure about 1.18.4 status
* [14:58] Squirrel Wood: slips in https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-2876 for some votings ^^
* [14:59] Rob Linden: what was the JIRA num for that OPJ 1.2?
* [14:59] Seg Baphomet: So its done internally?
* [14:59] Rob Linden: Seg: yeah, IIRC
* [14:59] Seg Baphomet: Jira could use status updates. :)
* [15:00] Seg Baphomet: Okay now Jira's being slow.
* [15:00] Jason Swain: agrees with squirrels VWR-2876 as being a good improvement, "Voted"
* [15:00] Michelle2 Zenovka: Last items on the ajenda, VWR - 2834 has been grabbed by Aric, so thats being done
* [15:00] Rob Linden: oh, good
* [15:01] Jason Swain: waves good bye and heads over to Benjamin Lindens office hour
* [15:01] Rob Linden: re: Proposal: namespace on wiki. I'd prefer to use User:Foo Smith/My xlnt proposal
* [15:02] Dzonatas Sol: The "Proposal:" note... that one needs your offical word on it. I'm more biased to use sldev/jira. Thoughts?
* [15:02] Seg Baphomet: ARGHRGA
* [15:02] Rob Linden: we can discuss at https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Project:Editing_Discussion
* [15:03] Seg Baphomet: Either Jira's slow or my internet connection is.
* [15:03] Soft Linden: Putting things under your own user space is great for anything that's not going to be permanent. It gives a clear indication that it shouldn't be directly linked by other pages.
* [15:03] Rob Linden: jira seems ok to me right now seg
* [15:03] Dzonatas Sol: sounds good... wiki "editing discussion"
* [15:03] Rob Linden: interesting. there might be a difference between http and https on jira
* [15:04] Liana Linden: Seems to me that user space is the best place to work out big changes that should get community consensus too.
* [15:04] Rob Linden: (or not...https seems fine too)
* [15:04] Soft Linden: Alright - way overdue on some things I want to finish this week - going to scoot!
* [15:04] Seg Baphomet: Well I guess the "upgrade" bug is VWR-2383
* [15:04] Dale Glass: later :-)
* [15:04] Rob Linden: I should probably tget going too
* [15:04] Liana Linden: Thanks, all.
* [15:05] Dzonatas Sol: I'm concered about links that span several wikipages.... all on one user: page might not work best. We'll see
* [15:05] Rob Linden: any volunteers to post the transcript?