Open Source Meeting/2007-10-04

Open Source Meeting 
== Agenda ==
Agenda assembled by Gigs Taggart
* Land Bots, whether to take measures to stop them.
** What is LL's position on client automation?
* Authentication.
** Goals still unclear.
** Fuzzy comments from LL about reducing potential attack vectors.
** Use cases.
* Protocol Documentation.
** Progression from de facto to formal standard
** Whether the GPL mulches babies or not.
"But software which OpenBSD uses and redistributes must be free to all (be they people or companies), for any purpose they wish to use it, including modification, use, peeing on, or even integration into baby mulching machines or atomic bombs to be dropped on Australia."
Theo de Raadt cvs@openbsd.org mailing list, May 29, 2001 :)
== Transcript ==
[14:00]	Prospero Linden: 	So hack the client :)
[14:00]	Tillie Ariantho: 	Like "Set perms for marked objects" ...
[14:00]	Prospero Linden: 	Our fearless leader is here!
[14:01]	Tillie Ariantho: 	If you upload 20 textures and want to set the perms, you open all and have to click 3 times for each texture to fix the perms.
[14:01]	Prospero Linden: 	Yes, painful.
[14:01]	Tillie Ariantho: 	Thats 60 clicks
[14:01]	Prospero Linden: 	That's why I use mutt and not Thunderbird for email :)
[14:01]	Prospero Linden: 	All that clicking....
[14:01]	Rob Linden: 	hi folks
[14:01]	Tillie Ariantho: 	Hi Rob. :)
[14:02]	Rob Linden: 	we should probably wait for a few more folks to show up
[14:02]	Rob Linden: 	while we're waiting, though, any volunteers to own the agenda for next week?
[14:03]	Rob Linden: 	agenda for this week: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source_Meeting/Agenda
[14:03]	Prospero Linden: 	Saijani, I like your turtle
[14:03]	Tillie Ariantho: 	Hm, where are all the guys from last week...
[14:03]	Tillie Ariantho: 	Is the SL Login working currently? ,)
[14:04]	Rob Linden: 	any volunteers to own the agenda next week?
[14:05]	Rob Linden: 	I guess no one right now. I'll return to this topic mid-meeting
[14:06]	Tillie Ariantho: 	I am not reading all the threads in sldev, so I would miss important things.
[14:06]	JayR Cela: 	hi every one / brb
[14:06]	Multi Gadget v2.0.3b by Timeless Prototype, '/44 info' 	Multi Gadget v2.0.3b by Timeless Prototype, '/44 info'
[14:06]	Prospero Linden: 	you neuro
[14:06]	Prospero Linden: 	yo
[14:06]	Tillie Ariantho: 	There people drop in. .)
[14:06]	Tao Takashi: 	Hi
[14:06]	Neuro Linden: 	me neuro
[14:06]	Tao Takashi needs a split screen in SL :) 	Tao Takashi needs a split screen in SL :)
[14:06]	Neuro Linden: 	you prospero
[14:06]	Prospero Linden: 	It's raining avatars
[14:06]	Kooky Jetaime: 	Hey Hey
[14:06]	Tao Takashi: 	so I can build and attend these office hours
[14:07]	Neuro Linden: 	hi everyone :)
[14:07]	Tillie Ariantho: 	Heh, almost more Lindens than community people. .P
[14:07]	Tao Takashi: 	or you all follow me to where I have to build ;-)
[14:07]	Zha Ewry: 	Scarily, raining the suaul supsects
[14:07]	Zha Ewry: 	*usual
[14:07]	Rob Linden: 	Tillie: it's not necessary to follow all of the threads on sldev to put together an agenda here
[14:07]	Kooky Jetaime: 	Hey Rob - you should update your Wiki entry
[14:07]	Squirrel Wood: 	Ta! I tested my roller coaster on the beta grid. It did not work. well.
[14:07]	Rob Linden: 	Kooky....?
[14:07]	Kooky Jetaime: 	Still says Grasmere
[14:07]	Zha Ewry: 	Clear skies, chance of gearhead avtar showers mid afternoon
[14:08]	Tillie Ariantho: 	I thought the agenda is the summary of the most controverse topics in sldev? ,)
[14:08]	Tao Takashi: 	is openid implemented by now?
[14:08]	Tao Takashi: 	:-)
[14:08]	Neuro Linden is only here for the baby mulching 	Neuro Linden is only here for the baby mulching
[14:08]	Rob Linden: 	Tillie: yes, but you can start a thread gathering items for the agenda
[14:08]	Rex Cronon: 	hi everybody
[14:09]	Rob Linden: 	anyway, let's get started
[14:09]	Rob Linden: 	first item: land bots
[14:09]	Tillie Ariantho: 	Okay, let me try it, Rob, if I fail, I wont do it again. .P
[14:09]	Kooky Jetaime: 	Kill Em!
[14:10]	Prospero Linden: 	Land bots generally suck, but the hard question is whether or not acting against it may act against other kinds of automation that are creative and useful.
[14:10]	Soft Linden: 	Today's agenda, for latecomers: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source_Meeting/Agenda
[14:10]	Kooky Jetaime: 	How bout just eliminating automated purchasing of anything?
[14:10]	Squirrel Wood: 	reCAPTCHA ^^
[14:10]	Kooky Jetaime: 	its clear cut, wouldn't involve most automations
[14:10]	Rob Linden: 	this one really doesn't have much to do with our current open source efforts. I can't say I'm a really good person to hit up for our policy on this. Any Lindens here feel like they're in a good spot to talk about the policy?
[14:10]	Prospero Linden: 	Not I :)
[14:11]	Prospero Linden has opinions, but doesn't know the Lab policy 	Prospero Linden has opinions, but doesn't know the Lab policy
[14:11]	Soft Linden: 	No, land bots are a general question more relevant to policy discussions, I think. But the more general question on client automation will be relevant to a lot of SL developers.
[14:11]	Tillie Ariantho: 	The stuff about windows and checking of buying items is done in the client anyway, right? So Landbot Owner would move to the open source and nothing would change.
[14:11]	Soft Linden: 	Even if it's not specifically an open source issue, it would be good if we could find an answer on that.
[14:12]	Prospero Linden: 	The capcha could be served up server side, presumably
[14:12]	Q Linden: 	I don't see a reasonable way to exclude them without throwing the babies out with the, um, mulch
[14:12]	Tillie Ariantho: 	That would be a solution then. :)
[14:12]	Soft Linden: 	Who would be a good person to approach with this question?
[14:12]	Prospero Linden: 	Q : mulch the babies first? :)
[14:13]	Zha Ewry: 	Meaning talk about GPL, BSD. real worlrd pain points from same?
[14:13]	Rob Linden: 	Generally, there's nothing wrong with automation per se, though anything that causes undue strain on our server infrastructure is not welcome, and exploits certainly aren't welcome.
[14:13]	Rob Linden: 	whether land bots constitute an "economic exploit" is somethign I'm not qualified to answer on Linden Lab's behalf.
[14:13]	Gigs Taggart: 	Q hehe
[14:14]	Squirrel Wood: 	They gobble up land before normal users get a chance
[14:14]	Soft Linden: 	Prospero just suggested we bring this up at one of the internal brown bag meetings to get a company sense. I think that makes great sense.
[14:14]	Neuro Linden: 	sounds like a plan
[14:14]	Q Linden: 	Yes...so normal users have to use them too. Just like eBay.
[14:14]	Q Linden: 	It's sad, but I don't know that there's a technological solution
[14:15]	Rob Linden: 	Soft and Prospero, that's a good idea
[14:15]	Rob Linden: 	anyone object to us tabling that pending further discussion at Linden Lab?
[14:15]	Gigs Taggart: 	I'd like to bring up again my proposal for standing orders for land
[14:15]	Squirrel Wood: 	require a captcha on purchase and the problem is solved? ^^
[14:15]	Gigs Taggart: 	just as a point for your internal discussions
[14:16]	Rob Linden: 	Gigs: you filed that in JIRA, right?
[14:16]	Gigs Taggart: 	limit buy/limit sell orders outstanding
[14:16]	Gigs Taggart: 	yes
[14:16]	Gigs Taggart: 	it's imported too
[14:16]	Gigs Taggart: 	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/
[14:16]	Gigs Taggart: 	that is one potential way out :)
[14:16]	Soft Linden: 	There's a more fundamental question, of whether we want to prevent automation, versus adding better tools to prevent accidental misuse. If SL is a platform, there's a good argument that we should be trying to minimize policy about how it's used, as policy tends to require continual human enforcement, which doesn't scale.
[14:17]	Zha Ewry: 	Soft, as a pplatform, with open acccesible services, how will you know if its a bot?
[14:17]	Soft Linden: 	Exactly. We can create captcha hacks, which just create a new engineering problem. You engage in an arms race against public coders.
[14:17]	Zha Ewry: 	In a built out world, where someone can host an agent domain full of bots..
[14:18]	Rob Linden: 	I think the general question is a little too vague to have a meaningful discussion about
[14:18]	Squirrel Wood: 	limit land purchases per ip/mac per day ?
[14:18]	Q Linden: 	I was particularly interested in the person who posted that he had trouble processing captchas but had tools that worked on them most of the time.
[14:18]	Rob Linden: 	DoS attacks are "automation"
[14:18]	Gigs Taggart: 	Q hehe yeah, shows how much they are worth :)
[14:18]	Soft Linden: 	Sitting on my hands to keep from replying over and over :)
[14:18]	Kooky Jetaime groans...... Any lindens wanna have fun with a 17 yo on the main grid? 	Kooky Jetaime groans...... Any lindens wanna have fun with a 17 yo on the main grid?
[14:18]	Gigs Taggart: 	that sounds illegal
[14:19]	Kooky Jetaime: 	((yea, its off topic but just found out about it..))
[14:19]	Tao Takashi: 	Tateru was that person I think
[14:19]	Rob Linden: 	ok....let's move off of this topic. before moving on (and now that everyone is here and kind of a captive audience), who's going to volutneer for putting together the agenda for next week
[14:19]	Soft Linden: 	Kooky - let me know in IM and I'll pass it to support
[14:19]	Q Linden: 	I thought tillie volunteered to try again?
[14:19]	Prospero Linden: 	Submit an AR
[14:20]	Neuro Linden: 	Kooky: File an Abuse Report
[14:20]	Neuro Linden: 	waa, Linden Reply Lag :)
[14:20]	Tillie Ariantho: 	yup me.
[14:20]	Prospero Linden: 	heh
[14:20]	Rob Linden: 	oh, cool, thanks Tillie. I missed that the first time
[14:20]	Rob Linden: 	ok, moving on
[14:20]	Tillie Ariantho: 	Yes, you did last week too. .P
[14:20]	Rob Linden: 	Authentication
[14:21]	Gigs Taggart: 	Who moved my cheese?
[14:21]	Rob Linden: 	so....I thnk I can explain a /little/ more here.
[14:21]	Tao Takashi: 	the list at least tried to answer any possible question you might have ;-)
[14:22]	Rob Linden: 	but before I do...does anyone here know if this came up at Zero's office hour this morning?
[14:22]	Tillie Ariantho: 	nope
[14:22]	Tillie Ariantho: 	didnt
[14:22]	Neas Bade: 	no, authentication didn't come up
[14:22]	Tao Takashi: 	I was late but I don't think so
[14:22]	Gigs Taggart: 	it didn't
[14:22]	Rob Linden: 	k.....Zero's team is the group working on this, so that's really who y'all should be hitting up
[14:23]	Rob Linden: 	however, I'll give it the old college try
[14:24]	Rob Linden: 	basically, there are some issues we're trying to get fixed on the backend, which, unfortunately (for purposes of public discussion) we can't go into great detail on
[14:25]	JayR Cela: 	ok when are we going to ditch the .0 moniker and just go SL platform
[14:25]	Squirrel Wood: 	Oh My
[14:25]	Rob Linden: 	however, what I can say is that the group is working on fixing a VERY real problem
[14:25]	JayR Cela: 	when are we going to ditch the .0 moniker and just outright state SL is a viable dev platform ???
[14:26]	Rob Linden: 	...and the solution they've proposed is the best way I've heard to solve it, even given my own misgivings about the complexity
[14:26]	Gigs Taggart wonders if JayR knows what "moniker" means 	Gigs Taggart wonders if JayR knows what "moniker" means
[14:26]	Q Linden: 	jayr, can you explain further? I, at least, don't understand
[14:26]	Khamon Fate: 	This is like the old Stage 4
[14:27]	Tillie Ariantho: 	as we dont know the real problem in the backend we can only guess on that. So how shall we rate that proposal any good?
[14:27]	Gigs Taggart: 	Yeah this is making it real hard
[14:27]	Gigs Taggart: 	Can't you put a bandaid on it and then tell us? I.e. shut down the offending point of entry?
[14:27]	JayR Cela: 	Gigs / SL is muddled into so much controversy and / is associate withint the general mass media as .0 / we as developers need to shake this and move forward
[14:28]	Gigs Taggart: 	JayR we are following an agenda here, ask again if we finish early :)
[14:28]	Tillie Ariantho: 	Gigs, I fear we cant log in, then anymore. .P
[14:28]	Tillie Ariantho: 	log in then, anymore...
[14:28]	Rob Linden: 	Tillie: we're not looking for a rating, though we are looking to make sure we understand all the possible problems so that we can mitigate them and/or come up with a different solution
[14:28]	Tao Takashi basically sees it as part of web2.0 or maybe more social media/networks 	Tao Takashi basically sees it as part of web2.0 or maybe more social media/networks
[14:29]	Tao Takashi: 	as it's not really "web"
[14:29]	Tao Takashi: 	but web2.0 is such an awful term anyway
[14:29]	Tillie Ariantho: 	Yes, but people on sldev see only a solution for 'what we think, it is', and from our view it is pretty bad or useless at all.
[14:29]	Rob Linden: 	one big goal has been accomplished, which is to give everyone an early heads up that this is in the works
[14:29]	Tao Takashi: 	the question here really is what Linden Lab hopes to get from the discussion on sldev
[14:30]	Tillie Ariantho: 	And it only brings us all the problems mentioned... different clients now... like 3 in parallel... and in the future there will be lots more...
[14:30]	JayR Cela: 	Tao LL will own Avatar acounts and virtual real estate
[14:30]	Prospero Linden: 	That's sort of the next otpic... protocol documentation.
[14:30]	Zha Ewry: 	Well, far enough down the road.. it will be merely a collecton of servcies, with common trust and such
[14:31]	Rob Linden: 	Tao: the critique that's there is helpful. I think it could be more helpful if some of the subjective stuff (e.g. "cumbersome") had a little more specifics about what exactly is cumbersome
[14:31]	Zha Ewry: 	Logging on getting ou the key to unlock the first set of services.
[14:31]	Zha Ewry: 	Then.. things flowing out from there.
[14:31]	Khamon Fate: 	Which "this" are we talking about?
[14:32]	Rob Linden: 	there's going to be more that the sldev community can do later, but for now, we've at least got the conversation started
[14:32]	Kooky Jetaime: 	yea..I'm completely confused now... *runs his finger over his lips Blubbbbbbbb
[14:32]	Soft Linden: 	I think people concerned about authentication/caps should be visiting Zero's office hours (or reviewing his office hour logs) to get a good point to work from.
[14:33]	Tillie Ariantho: 	I have a big problem with central authentication for lots of different things like now.... SL client, Wiki, Jira ... if ONE of those has a security hole that leaks out my password or something... someone can rampage on the wiki with my name, fuck up the jira AND steal my money and delete/give away my things. I'd prefer a separation of passwords there anyway.
[14:33]	Gigs Taggart: 	Soft I'm not sure there is too much fundamental misunderstanding. A lot of the points are valid. Like web sites being a lot more prone to phishing, like having single auth creating a bigger exposure to risk.
[14:34]	Soft Linden: 	Unlike some other work, the Lindens here haven't been as engaged on this because Zero's doing a good job of keeping discussions public-facing, so our particiaption is somewhat redundant.
[14:34]	Soft Linden nods... 	Soft Linden nods...
[14:34]	Rob Linden: 	agree with Soft: Zero is really going to be the person to hit up for a substantive chat on this topic
[14:35]	Rob Linden: 	(where this topic is https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer Authentication )
[14:35]	Rob Linden: 	er....https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_Authentication
[14:35]	Rob Linden: 	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_Authentication
[14:35]	Q Linden: 	leaving the single-signon security problem separate, are there technological objections regarding the implementation?
[14:35]	Gigs Taggart: 	Soft: Tillie's comment proves me wrong though :)
[14:35]	Tillie Ariantho: 	Gigs: huh? .)
[14:36]	Gigs Taggart: 	Tillie with a caps style single auth system the wiki can't expose your auth details.
[14:36]	Gigs Taggart: 	That's one of the benefits of it
[14:36]	Tillie Ariantho: 	okay then.
[14:36]	Gigs Taggart: 	:)
[14:36]	Soft Linden: 	More to it, there's room to move beyond just password authentication if it's centralized. But really - Zero! :)
[14:36]	Gigs Taggart: 	Q: I think as long as it can be automated I'm happy with it.
[14:36]	Gigs Taggart: 	Q: like with curl or something
[14:38]	Rob Linden: 	Now that Zero is back from his trip, I should have some time to catch up with him on this topic, and make sure he knows I'm directing the mob his way ;-)
[14:38]	Q Linden: 	Well, I would hope (I haven't studied the implementation details) that the login would generate a short-term token that can be handed to the viewer as authentication.
[14:38]	Gigs Taggart: 	Q: right
[14:38]	Zha Ewry marks down "Insane hoard at Zero's tuesday hours in her calendar" 	Zha Ewry marks down "Insane hoard at Zero's tuesday hours in her calendar"
[14:38]	Gigs Taggart: 	as long as I can fetch that with curl, throw it to the viewer, I'm cool :)
[14:38]	Whoops Babii: 	better buy him some teflon underwear
[14:38]	Tillie Ariantho: 	Zha: haha
[14:38]	Neuro Linden: 	zero can handle it, i'm sure :)
[14:39]	Kooky Jetaime: 	Zha - won't be the first time Zero's had insane hoards.. We might have to make him a bigger venue :)
[14:39]	Zha Ewry: 	True. I've almost given up on getting a seat.
[14:39]	Q Linden gets pedantic and whispers "hordes" 	Q Linden gets pedantic and whispers "hordes"
[14:39]	Gigs Taggart: 	Rob: I think that one reason this generated so much discussion and debate was because we couldn't see what the motivating factor was.
[14:39]	Rob Linden: 	I think one thing that would be SUPER helpful working with him is helping him keep that discussion organized
[14:39]	Zha Ewry grins at q "Hordes" even if they are insane and badly spelled. 	Zha Ewry grins at q "Hordes" even if they are insane and badly spelled.
[14:40]	Tillie Ariantho: 	Yeh, wasnt there this office hour yesterday with like 70 engaged "NO VAT" people? .P We could do that with Zero's office hour too. :)
[14:40]	Rob Linden: 	Gigs: yeah, I know....it's less than ideal, but I still think it's better that we started the conversation now rather than waiting until we were 80% done
[14:40]	JayR Cela: 	Tillie noooooo
[14:40]	Zha Ewry: 	Much better
[14:41]	JayR Cela: 	Zero's meetings are the most productive of all SL meetings
[14:41]	Zha Ewry: 	Appreciated, even if there will be much noicse along the way. Even more appreciated if it lets us sort out what's really behind it, and make sure it does something good for the whole commiunity
[14:41]	Rob Linden prefers "gobs and oodles" to "hoardes" 	Rob Linden prefers "gobs and oodles" to "hoardes"
[14:41]	Prospero Linden: 	buttloads
[14:41]	Gigs Taggart: 	Rob: yeah, it may have been helpful to at least say that there are serious security concerns you can't talk about behind it though. The way it looked it seemed like this was some out of the blue idea. :)
[14:42]	Tao Takashi: 	It's definitely good that this discussion is happening and hopefully more topics will follow to be discussed more openly :)
[14:42]	Gigs Taggart: 	like, hey wouldn't it be cool if we did this?
[14:42]	Zha Ewry: 	RL RL RL. Silly time consuming RL..
[14:42]	Tao Takashi just threw away his blogpost about it :-) 	Tao Takashi just threw away his blogpost about it :-)
[14:42]	Rob Linden: 	Gigs: noted.
[14:42]	Neuro Linden: 	Rob: "oodles" is a great word, you should use it more
[14:42]	JayR Cela: 	We are a community or we are Not a community
[14:43]	Tillie Ariantho: 	I am not .P
[14:43]	Rob Linden: 	since we have oodles of things to talk about , let's move on
[14:43]	JayR Cela: 	so lets get fricking organized
[14:43]	Rob Linden: 	:)
[14:43]	Neuro Linden: 	:)
[14:43]	Gigs Taggart: 	Can we talk about mulching babies now?
[14:43]	Prospero Linden: 	mulch!!!
[14:43]	Gigs Taggart warms up the machine 	Gigs Taggart warms up the machine
[14:43]	Q Linden is beginning to think that JayR is a philosophy-bot. 	Q Linden is beginning to think that JayR is a philosophy-bot.
[14:43]	Rob Linden regrets "moving on" 	Rob Linden regrets "moving on"
[14:43]	Tillie Ariantho: 	haha
[14:43]	Kooky Jetaime: 	heh
[14:43]	Neuro Linden stops thinking about atomic BSD-powered baby mulchers 	Neuro Linden stops thinking about atomic BSD-powered baby mulchers
[14:43]	JayR Cela: 	Q i am upset with useless chatter
[14:44]	Gigs Taggart: 	Q: no, it's an irony bot
[14:44]	Rob Linden: 	ok....so: Protocol Documentation. * Progression from de facto to formal standard
[14:44]	JayR Cela: 	lets discuss maters at hand or I going to go spend my time doing something else
[14:44]	Gigs Taggart: 	JayR: we have an agenda. https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source_Meeting/Agenda
[14:45]	Rob Linden: 	is there any more I need to explain on this subject not covered on sldev? any questions about it?
[14:45]	JayR Cela: 	Giggs so lets talk about it / or we are wasting time\
[14:45]	Gigs Taggart: 	We are talking about it
[14:45]	Tao Takashi has to go 	Tao Takashi has to go
[14:46]	Tao Takashi: 	cya later!
[14:46]	Gigs Taggart: 	I think there was pretty much agreement (excpet Argent)
[14:46]	Khamon Fate: 	me too
[14:46]	Dzonatas Sol couldn't get logged in earlier... "login failed" 	Dzonatas Sol couldn't get logged in earlier... "login failed"
[14:46]	Rob Linden looks around....doesn't see Argent 	Rob Linden looks around....doesn't see Argent
[14:46]	Q Linden: 	So I was interested because it seems like we're moving from a self-documenting protocol to one we have to document explicitly
[14:47]	Gigs Taggart: 	I disagree
[14:47]	Q Linden: 	gigs, with which?
[14:47]	Gigs Taggart: 	the documentation may be moving from a message template into the source, but it's still documented
[14:47]	Whoops Babii: 	self documenting as in - it's in the code?
[14:47]	Q Linden doesn't think code == documentation 	Q Linden doesn't think code == documentation
[14:47]	Gigs Taggart: 	The message template was almost as dense to read as code
[14:48]	Soft Linden: 	It's a valid point though - it was all in one place in a single standard form
[14:48]	Soft Linden: 	Even if it was poor documentation, it was a consistent starting point.
[14:48]	Q Linden: 	My concern (and this isn't my area, so I'm just yappin') is that the viewer code only documents half the prototocol
[14:48]	Rex Cronon: 	the documentation is documented? nice play of words gigs
[14:48]	Whoops Babii: 	yeah, but having it spelled out would sure help those trying to understand it.
[14:49]	Gigs Taggart: 	The impression I got at Zero's meeting was that the caps calls will be more or less uniform in the code and fairly easy to extract.
[14:49]	Rob Linden: 	sure. there was some discussion on list about ways to get the equivalent funcitonality (eg an "options" verb, iirc)
[14:49]	Saijanai Kuhn channels zha here: source code != documentation of an architecture/protocol	Saijanai Kuhn channels zha here: source code != documentation of an architecture/protocol
[14:49]	Soft Linden: 	It makes me wonder if some kind of a third party traffic validator project makes sense, to programmatically highlight where the sim or viewer are doing something undocumented/unexpected.
[14:49]	Q Linden: 	prototocol: we're not speaking to Kansas anymore
[14:49]	Dale Glass: 	interesting idea :-)
[14:49]	Rob Linden: 	I think we'll need more explicit protocol documentation. it's not going to happen as quickly as people want, but we'll get there
[14:50]	Rob Linden: 	....and certainly, source code + place to collaborate on documenting the protocol is a great tool for this
[14:50]	Prospero Linden: 	If there's ever going to be a standard, all sorts of formal documentation outside of the source code will of course be rquired.
[14:50]	Q Linden: 	I guess what I'm saying is that I want to move toward executable documentation.
[14:50]	Soft Linden: 	Having libsl and seeing when that breaks is half of a validator, but it's sure a painful way for that team to do it :)
[14:51]	Whoops Babii: 	Isn't the point to document it so that other servers can interact with a single viewer?
[14:51]	Q Linden: 	Put the protocol in a format that is publishable and used to generate the code on both ends
[14:51]	Dzonatas Sol: 	My question would be about where is there a need that every aspect of the protocol needs to be documented? I forsee the protocol will vary between sim to other sim versions, especially ones not made by LL.
[14:51]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	Zha's point is that no existing code ever implements an entire standard, or at least, you can't provet that it implements that standard 9or something along those lines)
[14:51]	Q Linden: 	it can't if you want one viewer to talk to many sims
[14:51]	Prospero Linden: 	If the protocol varies too much, you won't have interoperability.
[14:51]	Q Linden: 	"Het grid"
[14:52]	JayR Cela: 	the protocal should be and remain platform independat / if not then is a waste of time
[14:52]	Q Linden: 	+1
[14:52]	Whoops Babii: 	right, so we're talking a RFC-type of deal.
[14:52]	Rob Linden: 	Whoops: yes, eventually
[14:53]	Whoops Babii: 	I can dream :)
[14:53]	Dzonatas Sol: 	Has there been a decision for what part of the protocol will remain stable, even in get-grid style?
[14:53]	Rob Linden: 	the more the community helps out with this, the quicker it'll happen
[14:53]	Dzonatas Sol: 	*het
[14:53]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	seems to me that parallel streams of work have to be going on here, with at least some feedback
[14:53]	JayR Cela: 	Rob / Tree mentioned earlier today makeing SL a browser plugin / what are your thoughts on that issue
[14:53]	Rob Linden: 	Dz: that's what the ArchWG work is about
[14:54]	Dzonatas Sol: 	Ok, thank you. I believe I have a clearer picture of the loop now
[14:54]	Rob Linden: 	JayR: that'd be cool....is that related to the protocol business?
[14:55]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	AWG will work on a pure documentation/architecture/protocol leve. LL and others will work on implementation levels and various subsets of all interested parties will get together and argue it out on occassion
[14:55]	JayR Cela: 	Rob i beleave tis is an issue that needs further investigation / make SL a FireFox plug in / we allready use the Mozilla engine / should not be that difficult
[14:56]	Rob Linden: 	since we've only got five minutes, is there any serious discussion of GPL that we need to get to
[14:56]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	??? LOL
[14:56]	Gigs Taggart: 	Rob, I had this baby once, and I wanted to integrate it with a GPL library, and it turned to mulch.
[14:56]	Rob Linden: 	Gigs: I am sad
[14:56]	Gigs Taggart: 	thanks
[14:56]	Neuro Linden: 	that happens
[14:57]	Prospero Linden: 	Gigs : did you distribute the mulch? 'cause ifso you have to publish the DNAof the baby.
[14:57]	Soft Linden cracks knuckles - "I think we can handle a GPL vs BSD debate in 3 minutes!" 	Soft Linden cracks knuckles - "I think we can handle a GPL vs BSD debate in 3 minutes!"
[14:57]	Prospero Linden doesn't know how to type on this keyboard. 	Prospero Linden doesn't know how to type on this keyboard.
[14:57]	Neuro Linden: 	lol
[14:57]	Q Linden: 	TTAGGTATTG
[14:57]	Neuro Linden: 	soft: it's easy; BSD = old and busted; GPLv2 = teh hotness; GPLv3 = hot potato
[14:57]	Prospero Linden: 	heh
[14:57]	Liana Linden: 	+1 neuro
[14:57]	Dale Glass: 	I don't see any problem with the GPL. I mean if there's any doubt can't you just say "We won't sue for this"? After all if you won't, nobody else will
[14:58]	Rex Cronon: 	bye everybody, i have to go somewhere else
[14:58]	Rob Linden: 	I'm going to assume no one here had a question for Lindens on the GPL topic that hasn't already been covered
[14:58]	Gigs Taggart: 	hehe
[14:58]	Rob Linden: 	(speak now if I'm wrong)
[14:58]	Dzonatas Sol: 	I'll wait for transcript so i don't repeat
[14:58]	Dzonatas Sol: 	=)
[14:59]	Rob Linden: 	anything else we should cover here?
[14:59]	Rob Linden: 	looks like people are timing out anyway
[14:59]	Rob Linden: 	thanks for coming everyone
[14:59]	Kooky Jetaime: 	hehehe
[14:59]	Tillie Ariantho: 	=)
[15:00]	Rob Linden: 	Tillie: thanks for volunteering for next week
[15:00]	Kooky Jetaime: 	- Vote for it! (Or work on it you open source lovers!)
[15:00]	Tillie Ariantho: 	Sure
[15:00]	Kooky Jetaime grins gleeful on the cheap plug 	Kooky Jetaime grins gleeful on the cheap plug
[15:00]	Liana Linden: 	Thanks, Tillie.
[15:00]	Kooky Jetaime: 	Back to grasmere
[15:01]	Kooky Jetaime: 	or longfellow or whever Bens office is
[15:01]	Q Linden: 	I have office hrs early on Mondays, for those interested
[15:01]	Kooky Jetaime: 	Its been fun all
[15:01]	Tillie Ariantho: 	when is 'early' for you? .P
[15:01]	Kooky Jetaime: 	Saw that Q... damn early riser
[15:01]	Q Linden: 	7:30 PDT, 10:30 my time. :-)
[15:01]	Whoops Babii: 	Rob - since we're sitting around. Do you want those Solaris patches on the Jira ticket?
[15:01]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	BTW, a heads up to all lindens who use google calander. The SLURL is often NOT a one-click deal any more
[15:01]	Tillie Ariantho: 	Uh, still working then... :-/
[15:01]	Rob Linden: 	Whoops: yes, that would be very useful
[15:01]	Whoops Babii: 	OK.
[15:01]	Q Linden: 	why not?
[15:02]	Whoops Babii: 	I'll get that done tonight
[15:02]	Kooky Jetaime: 	Uhm
[15:02]	Kooky Jetaime: 	is something hokey
[15:02]	Kooky Jetaime: 	I can't find grasmere
[15:02]	Rob Linden: 	thanks Whoops
[15:02]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	rolling restart?
[15:02]	Prospero Linden: 	Rolling restart is done
[15:02]	Neuro Linden: 	Saijanai: what do you mean, not a one-click deal?
[15:02]	Tillie Ariantho: 	And if someone is missing Office Hourse in the calendar, add mine, I have the missing ones. .)
[15:03]	Whoops Babii: 	we've been having to problems all day on the SUn sims.
[15:03]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	if you go to the google calander and click on a office hours entry, the SLURL isn't clickuable
[15:03]	Tillie Ariantho: 	---> http://www.google.com/calendar/render?cid=tillie%40xp2.de
[15:03]	Q Linden: 	grasmere claims to be up
[15:03]	Whoops Babii: 	TP problems that is
[15:03]	Liana Linden: 	Bye everyone. Thank you.
[15:03]	Squirrel Wood: 	stupid client freezes :(
[15:03]	Dale Glass: 	I have lots of trash cans
[15:03]	Dale Glass: 	since when does that happen?
[15:04]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	case in point is Benjamin's entry.
[15:04]	Whoops Babii: 	later folks!
[15:04]	Tillie Ariantho: 	Is ben in grasmere?
[15:04]	Tillie Ariantho: 	See no folks there
[15:04]	Tillie Ariantho: 	but in beaumont
[15:04]	Dzonatas Sol: 	Anybody got a transcript for this they can throw up?
[15:04]	Rob Linden: 	Saijanai: that's weird. that seems to be a problem with Google, not us
[15:05]	Rob Linden: 	Dz: I'll put something up later
[15:05]	Neuro Linden: 	Rob: agreed, google snafu
[15:05]	Q Linden: 	Hey, rob, I have a script to format logs if you want it
[15:05]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	http://slurl.com/secondlife/Beaumont/148/155/46/ is listed as pure text., not a link. It doesn't seem to be the case with ALL of them though. Perhaps a subtle formatting change?
[15:05]	Q Linden: 	see my office hrs logs for what it looks like
[15:05]	Dzonatas Sol: 	Thank you, Rob
[15:05]	Rob Linden: 	gotta run. bye everyone. Q: I'm covered, b ut thanks. Tree has a flash version
[15:06]	Q Linden: 	kk, cya
[15:06]	Q Linden: 	bye, all!