Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2012.06.08

Simulator_User_Group
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== List of Speakers ==
Andrew Linden	AnnMarie Otoole 	Ardy Lay
Baker Linden 	Draconis Neurocam	DrFran Babcock
Jonathan Yap 	Kelly Linden 	Londen Adored
Moundsa Mayo 	Nalates Urriah 	Rex Cronon
Simon Linden 	Vincent Nacon 	
== Transcript ==
[16:02] Moundsa Mayo: Kitto did a KFM multi-unit train when it first came out but there were still some glitches that needed ironing out. i think those are resolved now.
[16:02] DrFran Babcock: oooooh
[16:03] Simon Linden: If anyone has interesting things to sit on, feel free to rez them
[16:03] Moundsa Mayo: yes, the SLRR testing regions are being brought back up on Aditi - they'll be moved to the Pathfinding RC for development and testing of rolling stock with the latest features.
[16:03] DrFran Babcock: time for an update! I love SL, because improvements are always made.
[16:04] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
[16:04] DrFran Babcock: hello, Rex
[16:04] Moundsa Mayo: I did some preliminary work in the Pathtest regions, but you really need permanent track with control of obstacles. Some few seem to delight in rezzing junk on the track.
[16:04] Andrew Linden: Sorry I couldn't make it to Tuesday's user group.
[16:04] Rex Cronon: hi drfran
[16:04] Andrew Linden: I was available technically, but fighting some build issues that needed to get resolved.
[16:05] Andrew Linden: I'm still working on pathfinding, am hopefully only a couple weeks from done.
[16:06] Jonathan Yap: I just tried the PF viewer briefly for the 2nd time
[16:06] DrFran Babcock: it's fun to turn on the mesh, but I FAIL at making it work
[16:06] Andrew Linden: We're going to try to make the editing of navmeshy objects a little smoother, which is what I'm working on now server-side, and then final bug fixing.
[16:06] Andrew Linden: That's all the news I've got.
[16:07] Vincent Nacon: and I missed it
[16:07] Simon Linden: I don't have much to add, except a little about the server rolls next week
[16:07] Baker Linden: I finally fixed SVC-4444, and have committed the change.
[16:07] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4444
[#SVC-4444] Objects become fully permissive when rezzed under certain conditions. - with Repro
[16:08] Baker Linden: With beaucoup thanks to Andrew for helping me understand permissions
[16:08] Simon Linden: The main channel will have essentially the same simulator code, but gets an update to some other SL system software
[16:08] Moundsa Mayo: Wow, good work navigating the permissions, labrynth, Baker!
[16:08] Andrew Linden: Baker's fix sits in a maintenance project. It will be a few weeks before it is deployed to RC.
[16:08] Baker Linden: I lost like 30 sanity points, but I leveled up. It was worth it.
[16:09] Rex Cronon: so now any chahges made to ojb perms while inside inventory will be permanent?
[16:09] Moundsa Mayo: Heee.
[16:09] Moundsa Mayo: Prolly want to test that fix quite throoughly B^P
[16:10] Andrew Linden: Uh... Rex, the repro recipe Baker was working with is fixed. I wouldn't go so far as to say "any changes made in inventory will be permanent".
[16:10] Simon Linden: That's it for my news
[16:10] Andrew Linden: But we're a little closer to being 100% correct.
[16:11] Rex Cronon: ok. so will still have to keep my eyes open
[16:11] Baker Linden: yeah
[16:11] Andrew Linden: Yeah, we all do.
[16:11] Baker Linden: I made it easy to toggle that change in case something bad happens
[16:11] Baker Linden: we can turn it off
[16:11] Andrew Linden: Actually, Baker wired his fix so that it could be enabled/disabled at runtime... just in case something goes terribly wrong.
[16:11] Rex Cronon: nice
[16:12] Andrew Linden: If everything goes according to plan that config will just be the default (enabled) for a few months without any problems.
[16:12] Andrew Linden: And then we'll eventually remember to pull the config out and make it a 100% compiled fix.
[16:13] Baker Linden: but if you have a case like what's in the jira repro -- an item with full perms that was placed into a container and then had permissions changed to something more restrictive, the more restrictive perms should now stick when giving the container to people
[16:13] Andrew Linden: Ok table is open.
[16:14] Vincent Nacon: no sit target because of the sculpty prim block you from sitting it
[16:14] Vincent Nacon: muhaha!
[16:14] Ardy Lay: There is no spo.... table.
[16:14] Andrew Linden: Sigh... sculpts.
[16:14] Vincent Nacon: this will do
[16:14] Andrew Linden: A blessing and a curse.
[16:15] AnnMarie Otoole: Any chance of taking a look at SCR-43. It appears to be a simple error in coding that should be easy to fix. (Refers to having to re-rez an object to get llListen to work in child prims).
[16:15] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SCR-43
[#SCR-43] Listeners in child prims get positioned at root prim position first, then switch to child prim position after re-rez (resulting in wrong listener / whisper radius)
[16:15] Ardy Lay: Well, I wish I could see the prim as it it wasn't sculpted.
[16:15] Ardy Lay: I have been trying to educate somebody.
[16:16] Ardy Lay: "Show Physics Shape" crashes the viewer.
[16:16] Simon Linden: wow, that one goes way back, AnnMarie. I'll make a note of it for our next triage meeting
[16:16] AnnMarie Otoole: Thank you.
[16:17] Andrew Linden: Yeah, that looks like a good one to fix.
[16:17] Simon Linden: I can see it being worse with larger objects now
[16:18] Rex Cronon: with a 64m prim it does make a diffrence
[16:18] Simon Linden: I wonder if we'd break things ... if the child prim is actually outside of chat range, but can hear now due to using the root position
[16:19] Simon Linden: but using the actual position makes more intuitive sense to me
[16:19] Ardy Lay: Might break a snooping tool or two. ;-)
[16:19] Ardy Lay: Specifically the ones whose instructions say to always res a fresh copy.
[16:19] AnnMarie Otoole: It corrects itself to listening at the child location after a re-rez, just doesn't work if you attach a prim without re-rezzing.
[16:20] Ardy Lay: AH
[16:20] AnnMarie Otoole: Which makes it difficult to work around with dynamic adding and removing prims.
[16:20] Simon Linden: Right - that's a clear point where it's breaking and the behavior changes
[16:21] Andrew Linden: Good, that means it will break less content. Most of the breakable content is stuff that was made a long time ago and has been rezzed from asset since it was created.
[16:21] Andrew Linden: Anybody know if the bug survives a region save/load cycle? (restart)
[16:21] Vincent Nacon: ....Have Rod thought about pushing LL into making Third Life yet?
[16:21] Vincent Nacon: muhaha!
[16:22] Andrew Linden: ah, there it is in the bug comments: a region restart will fix the bug
[16:22] Simon Linden: If we start talking about secret new projects, the AVs in the white coats will come and take us away
[16:22] Andrew Linden: good
[16:22] Draconis Neurocam: no idea but https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SCR-79 would be nice, as would https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SCR-321
[16:23] JIRA-helper: [#SCR-321] llGetParcelPrimOwnersFull a way to get all of the owner keys of prims in a sim in a strided list not capped at 100.
[16:23] JIRA-helper: [#SCR-79] llMatchGroup() - Checks if an object or agent is active in a specified group.
[16:24] Ardy Lay: Parcel != "sim"
[16:24] Ardy Lay: "sim" ~= Region
[16:24] Andrew Linden: Yeah, I think Baker needs some exposure to fixing script bugs, and adding new script functions.
[16:24] Vincent Nacon: even a parcel can be full sim sized
[16:24] Draconis Neurocam: ardy i still know parcels with over 100 object owners
[16:24] Rex Cronon: there r some sims that have less than 5 parcels
[16:24] Ardy Lay: How mych memory you need to store that list?
[16:24] DrFran Babcock: Baker can do it.
[16:25] Ardy Lay: Oh, I have a region that is all one parcel.
[16:25] Draconis Neurocam: i doubt it would be more than the 4096 being opened up with httprequest
[16:25] Ardy Lay: I also have one that is over 30 parcels.
[16:26] Ardy Lay: How my bytes in a UUID?
[16:26] Ardy Lay: =my +many
[16:26] Moundsa Mayo: 36
[16:26] Ardy Lay: Ugh
[16:26] DrFran Babcock: VOICE !!!!
[16:26] Baker Linden: I completely disagree with every statement about me fixing scripting bugs
[16:26] Moundsa Mayo: B^D
[16:26] Ardy Lay: How many UUIDs per "prim"?
[16:26] DrFran Babcock: heh
[16:26] Baker Linden: unless that statement is "no he shouldn't do that." Then I agree fully.
[16:26] Draconis Neurocam: baker your voice is on id you werent aware
[16:26] Ardy Lay: Or do you really mean object?
[16:26] Draconis Neurocam: if*
[16:27] Rex Cronon: 256 max nr of prims per object
[16:27] Baker Linden: sorry. this middle mouse is sensitive
[16:27] Draconis Neurocam: what i mean ardy is that the previous function only shows you 100 owners of different objects and cuts off
[16:27] Kelly Linden: I don't really like functions that can return lists of unbounded size.
[16:27] Jonathan Yap: Do you need that list in a script, or would having it in the UI be okay?
[16:27] Ardy Lay: THose make things go boom
[16:28] Draconis Neurocam: jonathan, its for a sim which i help with in which not everyone has permission to view who owns how many prims, so i have no way to format that data than by copying it by hand
[16:28] Draconis Neurocam: from the about land panel
[16:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[16:30] Kelly Linden: Maybe you need smaller parcels. ;)
[16:30] Andrew Linden: What is llGetParcelPrimOwners() most useful for?
[16:30] Rex Cronon: to see who has things rezzed on your parcel
[16:30] Draconis Neurocam: right
[16:31] Kelly Linden: That is what it does - what are you doing with that information
[16:31] Rex Cronon: sometimes people put follower on u
[16:31] Andrew Linden: as part of an automated system? or just to augment an incomplete viewer UI?
[16:31] Rex Cronon: this way u see what follows u from parcel to parcel
[16:31] Rex Cronon: ui
[16:32] Ardy Lay: Ah, I was thinking he wanted it to list the object too.
[16:32] Andrew Linden: We don't have llReturnObject() (although it has been requested).
[16:33] Jonathan Yap: the new pathfinder UI lists objects
[16:33] Andrew Linden: I could see how llReturnObject() and llGetParcelPrimOwners() could be used together... a janitorial bot could be made to monitor parcel contents effectively.
[16:33] Draconis Neurocam: right andrew
[16:34] Andrew Linden: The new pathfinder UI provides lists that are filtered...
[16:34] Andrew Linden: if you don't have perms to modify an object then it doesn't show up in the list of objects
[16:34] Rex Cronon: sometimes people like to rez a high altitude platform, or even house, or a store
[16:35] Andrew Linden: although... I think the UI for viewing characters (AI objects) shows all characters
[16:35] Andrew Linden: its intended use is to allow debugging of characters when the region performance suffers
[16:35] Andrew Linden: or general management of character resources
[16:35] Ardy Lay: Andrew, is that list filtered by the service or by the client?
[16:36] Andrew Linden: by the service. The simulator provides the list and only includes data that it thinks the viewer needs to know about.
[16:36] Ardy Lay: Good. We are learning.
[16:37] Andrew Linden: The simulator allows Estate Managers to change navmesh properties of objects
[16:37] Andrew Linden: so Estate Managers will get big lists in the navmesh linksets UI
[16:38] Andrew Linden: Anyway, my inclination would be to try to provide a way for the viewer to request the relevant info rather than implement llGetParcelPrimOwnersFull()
[16:39] Andrew Linden: unless it is desperately needed for a parcel maintenance bot
[16:39] Simon Linden: I wonder how often that one would hit whatever limit we put on the results
[16:39] Ardy Lay: Can people see their own counts on land they have no management capabilities on?
[16:39] Draconis Neurocam: nope
[16:39] Ardy Lay: I'd like them to be able to, and to return their own stuff from the list.
[16:39] Draconis Neurocam: that would be nice actually htough
[16:40] Draconis Neurocam: yeah ardy
[16:40] Andrew Linden: Ardy, good point. Maybe they should?
[16:40] Draconis Neurocam: that makes sense
[16:40] Ardy Lay: I often have to help clean up when somebody res something they should not have and it gets away from them.
[16:41] Andrew Linden: Hrm... what are the arguments against giving them all the object data for parcels that they don't own?
[16:41] Andrew Linden: That is, why not open that info for everybody?
[16:41] Ardy Lay: Information overload?
[16:41] Vincent Nacon: I don't see why not
[16:41] Ardy Lay: Some new folks might get lost in that. ;-)
[16:41] Simon Linden: I guess that would depend on what you plan to do with the info
[16:41] Draconis Neurocam: i don't see a problem andrew, as long as they can't do anything about it besides their own objects, but my opinion is not everyones
[16:42] Ardy Lay: Imagine that parcel with over objects owned by over a hundred people.
[16:42] Ardy Lay: If that won't be a problem then I won't mind it.
[16:42] Londen Adored: Can people really abuse it? I always lose my stuff but I don't want to have to bother people to go find it.
[16:42] Andrew Linden: Well... the information management is a problem for the viewer. The UI just needs to be improved.
[16:42] Rex Cronon: is already possible to get partial info about objects on a parcel.
[16:43] Andrew Linden waves hands at that problem and says "Viewer devs will fix it."
[16:43] Ardy Lay: Can't abuse it any more than right-click, return, which the service blocks.
[16:43] Draconis Neurocam: andrew, where can i talk to some?
[16:43] Draconis Neurocam: heh
[16:43] Jonathan Yap: the ui could filter by name
[16:43] Londen Adored: Well then.
[16:44] Rex Cronon: sometimes i might go on a parcel and look for one of my objects and this way i could find it lots easier
[16:44] Ardy Lay: Yes
[16:44] Andrew Linden: In theory a 3rd party viewer could scrape all or most of the info that would be provided by a parcel item list, via automated select-obj-and-cache-info system.
[16:44] Jonathan Yap: I have flown around a lot trying to find my lost item as a blue square on the minimap
[16:44] Ardy Lay: I kinda think a drillable list of manageable objects, giving location when opened would be nice too.
[16:44] Rex Cronon: i don't think that is just a theory andrew
[16:44] Andrew Linden: It would be a messy project, but is not impossible.
[16:45] Andrew Linden: Right, perhaps someone has done it.
[16:45] DrFran Babcock: I agree, Ardy.
[16:45] Ardy Lay: Andrew, area search
[16:45] Rex Cronon: usually when i look on other parcles is when i loose my objects
[16:45] Ardy Lay: Somebody has that in viewer, yes
[16:45] Andrew Linden: Which just goes to support the idea that the info should just be made available for easy consumption.
[16:45] Vincent Nacon: sounds like a job for spiderbots
[16:45] AnnMarie Otoole: The SL script editor has a dropdown list of all functions that is totally useless, you still have to go to the Portal to get a list of required parameters. The list would be VERY helpful if the functions contained the list of parameters like the definitions in the Portal.
[16:46] Ardy Lay: Hover mouse over the function name after inserting it into script source.
[16:46] Nalates Urriah: The solution to that is LSLEditor
[16:46] Simon Linden: yeah - and I'd really like the "paste the tooltip into text" function so it would set up those parameters
[16:46] Rex Cronon: could we have llParcelObjects(uuid owner) :)
[16:47] Ardy Lay: Oooh.. nice, Simon.
[16:47] Andrew Linden: Which reminds me... the script highlighting info in the pathfinding viewer is already out of date. I need to update it.
[16:47] Andrew Linden: Sigh...
[16:47] Ardy Lay: Andrew, is that pushed yet?
[16:47] Nalates Urriah: Weren't you and Ima getting an auto-update thing working?
[16:47] Ardy Lay: We need to have things like GPU table and script syntax pushed to viewers.
[16:48] Andrew Linden: That was an idea. I kinda ran out of time to get it done.
[16:48] Ardy Lay: Ah
[16:48] Ardy Lay: OKay
[16:48] Ardy Lay: Oz might like to help. ;-)
[16:48] Ardy Lay: He like things that make maintenance easier.
[16:50] Andrew Linden: Yeah... really I'd just like to get the service up first.
[16:50] Andrew Linden: Which really shouldn't be very hard to do...
[16:50] Andrew Linden: hence my "Sigh..." earlier.
[16:51] Ardy Lay: Hmm.... Can wiki pull from that service too?
[16:51] Andrew Linden: Well, maybe I'll get it done yet. I was reminded today.
[16:51] Kelly Linden: Yeah. Ima was working on the viewer support for getting all the syntax from a single file, pretty good progress too.
[16:52] Andrew Linden: I'll make yet another note and maybe I'll find it on my desk on Monday.
[16:52] Kelly Linden: Ping me when ya do - I'd like to sync up with you on it.
[16:52] Ardy Lay imagines Andrew's desk sometimes looks like a public SL sandbox.
[16:52] Andrew Linden: Must remember: when waitin for that compile to finish I should be working on providing LSL syntax as a service.
[16:52] Kelly Linden: no, that is falcon's desk
[16:53] Ardy Lay: Hehe
[16:53] Rex Cronon: if his desk looked like that he would be lagging all the time
[16:53] Ardy Lay: Falcon gets people leaving stuff everywhere?
[16:53] Vincent Nacon: Falcon is fairly new to LL, isn't he?
[16:53] Andrew Linden: Actually I had a big pile of post-it notes from User Group on my desk a few weeks ago.
[16:54] Kelly Linden: I don't consider Falcon to be new to LL.
[16:54] Andrew Linden: I cleaned them up must recently. Now it is nice and cleaner
[16:54] Rex Cronon: i think there is program for posting notes on your screen:)
[16:54] Vincent Nacon: clean desk is another chance to get messy
[16:54] DrFran Babcock: yes, I have a widget on my mac with postits
[16:54] Ardy Lay: Heh, I used to take notes on SL Notecards.
[16:55] DrFran Babcock: I still do
[16:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[16:55] Ardy Lay: I don't run SL at work now.
[16:55] Vincent Nacon: yeah I have sticky notes on my desktop (in windows 7, not physical desk)
[16:55] Ardy Lay: Not allowed to take my notebook in due to security restrictions.
[16:56] Ardy Lay: -notebook +notebook computer
[16:56] DrFran Babcock: :(
[16:56] Rex Cronon: u have to leave your cell phone home too?
[16:57] Ardy Lay: THey have lockers for those.
[16:57] Vincent Nacon: there's new SL viewer with 3D app for phone now
[16:57] DrFran Babcock: do tell
[16:57] Simon Linden: really? What's that called?
[16:57] Draconis Neurocam: http://www.lumiyaviewer.com/
[16:57] Rex Cronon: ipsl;)
[16:58] Vincent Nacon: yup that's it he beat me to it
[16:58] DrFran Babcock: Android.bah
[16:58] DrFran Babcock: iPhone, iMac, MBP, iPod, iDrFran
[16:59] Ardy Lay: iGetIt
[16:59] Ardy Lay: Android is for tinkerers.
[16:59] Vincent Nacon: anyway, that's all for today's meeting then?
[16:59] Ardy Lay: Lots of people like to tinker.
[16:59] DrFran Babcock: thanks all. A learning experience as usual.
[16:59] Andrew Linden: Yup. This meeting is nearly over.
[17:00] Simon Linden: Thanks everyone one again for the good chat
[17:00] DrFran Babcock: Yes, Ardy.
[17:00] Jonathan Yap: have a good weekend everybody
[17:00] Vincent Nacon: no it's over now
[17:00] Vincent Nacon: :P
[17:00] Moundsa Mayo: Andrew, Simon, Kelly, Baker, thanks for your time and hard work!
[17:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[17:00] Simon Linden: That 3D phone viewer looks interesting
[17:00] DrFran Babcock: yes
[17:00] Andrew Linden: Have a nice weekend.
[17:00] DrFran Babcock: but, I won't buy an android to get it.
[17:00] Vincent Nacon: 8:00 just chimed in
[17:00] DrFran Babcock: thanks, have a nice California weekend.
[17:00] Vincent Nacon: aye, take care all
[17:00] Ardy Lay: Thanks
[17:00] Rex Cronon: tc simon, andrew, baker, and all the others present here. have a nice day all:)
[17:01] Moundsa Mayo: By now the iPhones should be able to EMULATE Android ...
[17:01] DrFran Babcock: one day:wqa
Simulator_User_Group
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