Mesh/Archive/2012-11-12

==Agenda==
#Status of Mesh Importer. Any ETA? Silver Key 11:49, 12 November 2012 (PST)
#Creatorverse inhouse competitor to SL? Silver Key 11:49, 12 November 2012 (PST)
#We miss Oskar. Silver Key 11:49, 12 November 2012 (PST)
#Maxwell Graf has an important topic, ask him. Silver Key 12:14, 12 November 2012 (PST)
#Materials? Drongle McMahon
==Meeting Notes==
==Attendees List==
*Almut Brunswick (almut.brunswick)
*arton Rotaru (arton.rotaru)
*Cale Flanagan (cale.flanagan)
*Chubbalicious (chubbalicious)
*Darien Caldwell (darien.caldwell)
*Drongle McMahon (drongle.mcmahon)
*Eleanora Newell (eleanora.newell)
*Exosius Woolley (exosius.woolley)
*Geenzian Scientist (geenz.spad)
*Gramma Fiddlesticks (gramma.fiddlesticks)
*Hexapoda (hexapoda)
*Exotix (inara.pey)
*JIRA-helper (jira-helper)
*Kennylex Luckless (kennylex.luckless)
*Lares Carter (lares.carter)
*mahadma (mahadma)
*Maxwell Graf (maxwell.graf)
*Mikki Miles (mikki.miles)
*Nal (nalates.urriah)
*Nyx Linden (nyx.linden)
*osterhase Yellowjacket (osterhase.yellowjacket)
*Prep Linden (prep.linden)
*Ravelli Ormstein (ravelli.ormstein)
*Casanova Frankenstein (roblem.hogarth)
*Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)
*Theresa Tennyson (theresa.tennyson)
*Tiberious Neruda (tiberious.neruda)
*Tillie Ariantho (tillie.ariantho)
*Timmi Allen (timmi.allen)
*Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)
==Transcript for Monday November 12, 2012==
[12:01]	Nyx Linden 	greetings all
[12:01]	Ravelli Ormstein 	Hi all
[12:01]	Maxwell Graf 	hi nyx, prep
[12:01]	Prep Linden 	yo folks!
[12:01]	Exotix (inara.pey) 	Hi, Pep, Nyx.
[12:02]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	howdy prepy!
[12:02]	Nyx Linden 	agenda is here, feel free to add more topics: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group
[12:02]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Hello, Prep and Nyx.
[12:02]	Hexapoda 	Pose balls for sofas here is prio topic.
[12:02]	Tiberious Neruda 	LOL
[12:03]	Nyx Linden 	first topic: "Status of Mesh Importer. Any ETA? Silver Key 11:49, 12 November 2012 (PST)"
[12:03]	Tiberious Neruda 	huh?
[12:03]	Ravelli Ormstein 	what is ETA?
[12:03]	Nyx Linden 	ETA= estimated time of arrival
[12:03]	Cale Flanagan 	ankunftszeit
[12:03]	Ravelli Ormstein 	ok
[12:03]	Maxwell Graf 	gesundheit!
[12:04]	arton Rotaru 	zuviele deutsche in SL
[12:04]	Almut Brunswick 	Ach Unsinn, so viele sind wir doch garnicht^^
[12:04]	arton Rotaru 	^^
[12:04]	Cale Flanagan 	schuligung:)
[12:04]	Mikki Miles 	die sind √ºberall
[12:05]	Nyx Linden 	mesh import has been working for quite a while, I'm going to assume that Silver is asking about the clothing deformer?
[12:05]	Almut Brunswick 	Ok, shall we decide for German as language of negotiation for this evening? ^^
[12:05]	arton Rotaru 	guess so
[12:05]	Tiberious Neruda 	...if it is, I'm gone
[12:05]	Drongle McMahon 	Nine!
[12:05]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	heya vir
[12:05]	osterhase Yellowjacket 	helloooo everybody
[12:05]	Nyx Linden 	I'm afraid my german isn't very good these days
[12:05]	Ravelli Ormstein 	Hi H√§schen
[12:05]	Theresa Tennyson 	My guess is it has to do with the importer not working on certain setups after 3.2.4. Runitai has a fix out but it's in testing.
[12:06]	osterhase Yellowjacket 	hall√∂chen Ravelli
[12:06]	osterhase Yellowjacket 	:))
[12:06]	Nyx Linden 	ah that would make sense Theresa
[12:06]	Tillie Ariantho 	Hello Maxwell :)
[12:06]	Maxwell Graf 	:D hi
[12:07]	Nyx Linden 	If the issue is the error based on mesh import failing, there is indeed a fix in the pipeline, but the last beta took a while to get stabilized, so we have a backlog of fixes that have not been released yet
[12:08]	Nyx Linden 	I don't have an estimate for when that fix in particular will get shipped, it depends on how well the pipeline of code fixes remains stable and able to continue moving forward
[12:08]	Nyx Linden 	(something is clogging up the series of tubes)
[12:09]	arton Rotaru 	the current release viewer crashes me on loggin already
[12:09]	arton Rotaru 	so I had to went back one version
[12:09]	Nyx Linden 	we are gathering crash reports on any issues and investigating the biggest causes
[12:09]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "Creatorverse inhouse competitor to SL? Silver Key 11:49, 12 November 2012 (PST)"
[12:10]	Nyx Linden 	reference: http://www.creatorverse.com/
[12:10]	arton Rotaru 	answer: NO
[12:10]	arton Rotaru 	lol
[12:11]	Theresa Tennyson 	But it's NEW! And that makes it SCARY.
[12:11]	arton Rotaru 	lol
[12:11]	Tillie Ariantho 	;D
[12:11]	Nyx Linden 	well that was an easy topic :)
[12:11]	arton Rotaru 	.
[12:11]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "We miss Oskar. Silver Key 11:49, 12 November 2012 (PST)"
[12:12]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	long live the oskar!
[12:12]	arton Rotaru 	answer:yes
[12:12]	Timmi Allen 	yes we miss him
[12:12]	arton Rotaru 	next
[12:12]	Nyx Linden 	aaand we're out of topics!
[12:13]	arton Rotaru 	lol cool
[12:13]	mahadma 	I seem to have come too late :D
[12:13]	Lares Carter 	Can you update the transcripts for the last meetings, please?
[12:13]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	server side baking be avalible this year?
[12:13]	Prep Linden 	/prep is relieved..back to Creatorverse ;-)
[12:13]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	for testing at least
[12:13]	Drongle McMahon 	Maybe Geenz can tell us about materials?
[12:13]	Nyx Linden 	yes, apologies for getting behind on the transcripts the past couple of weeks
[12:13]	Nyx Linden 	I will post the missing logs
[12:13]	Gramma Fiddlesticks 	Yes Please update those transcript! Pretty please.
[12:13]	Eleanora Newell 	lol, prep
[12:13]	Geenzian Scientist (geenz.spad) 	:P
[12:13]	Maxwell Graf 	oooh materials update~! +1
[12:14]	Ravelli Ormstein 	if additional questions are allowed, i would ask about normal maps... when will they be ready? :-)
[12:14]	Nyx Linden 	server side baking is still in process, no new update from LL just yet on that one
[12:14]	Ravelli Ormstein 	ah
[12:14]	Geenzian Scientist (geenz.spad) 	there's not much I can offer in terms of an update sadly, but I can answer specific questions about what will be involved with creating materials
[12:14]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	ok
[12:14]	Lares Carter 	Thanks. :)
[12:14]	arton Rotaru 	we just need a viewer for materials. looks like the server is done already :p
[12:14]	Almut Brunswick 	I hope for a VERY well-made tutorial for these new features
[12:14]	Nyx Linden 	normal maps would be part of the materials project, Geenz knows more about the current status than I do
[12:15]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Geenz has a meeting on Tuesday at 3PM SLT
[12:15]	Maxwell Graf 	chocolate/cigars/liquor/whores to anyone with intel on the meterials. :D
[12:15]	Maxwell Graf 	jus sayin...
[12:15]	Eleanora Newell 	cool
[12:15]	Geenzian Scientist (geenz.spad) 	this is just as appropriate of a place to ask questions as my UG is :P
[12:15]	Exosius Woolley 	back in my day we didn;t have normal maps and la de da, we had 8MB of ram, no bump maps and if you used more than a few hundred polygons your computer would crash! now get off my lawn!
[12:16]	Chubbalicious 	how much chocolate?
[12:16]	mahadma 	lol
[12:16]	Maxwell Graf 	:)
[12:16]	Maxwell Graf 	depends on the intel!
[12:16]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Maestro says the materials code is running in ADITI, I forget which region. But, There isn't a viewer out that we can use. Oz says he will tells us as soon as they have a project viewer...
[12:17]	Drongle McMahon 	Any thoughts about when we can play with a material viewer Geenz?
[12:17]	Ravelli Ormstein 	ok
[12:17]	Nyx Linden 	Hrm, what quality of chocolate?
[12:17]	Nyx Linden 	:D
[12:17]	Almut Brunswick 	The need of materials is already quite hard to explain to noobs and intermediate 3D content creators in external tools like Blender. So it would be quite challenging to introduce them here for those who aren't experienced content creators.
[12:17]	Drongle McMahon 	It would be nice for the Christmas holiday.
[12:17]	Maxwell Graf 	Will the materials work on terrain or only on items?
[12:17]	Geenzian Scientist (geenz.spad) 	I can't really provide any specifics as to when we'll see materials rolled out
[12:17]	arton Rotaru 	blonde chocolate^^
[12:17]	Tillie Ariantho 	Swiss chocolate, I'll add money to make sure it is swiss. ;D
[12:17]	Exotix (inara.pey) 	Mats server-side is running on Chooqu on Aditi
[12:17]	Chubbalicious 	i would like to keep tabs on that info..is there anywhere we can go to find the info when Oz says its ready?
[12:17]	Timmi Allen 	Swizer chocolate
[12:18]	Geenzian Scientist (geenz.spad) 	regarding what will be able to have materials applied:
[12:18]	Tillie Ariantho 	Follow the dev list might help with that. :)
[12:18]	Geenzian Scientist (geenz.spad) 	sculpts, prims, and meshes
[12:18]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Inara and I will probably blog it before there is a formal notice... or about the same time.
[12:18]	Geenzian Scientist (geenz.spad) 	things that you can't apply materials to (at least, not in the first version):
[12:18]	Nyx Linden 	we will be posting project viewer links once it is ready for general testing I'm sure. I'll be happy to make a mention of it here, and on the opensource-dev mailing list
[12:18]	arton Rotaru 	the jira for normal maps
[12:18]	Exotix (inara.pey) 	There won't be anything on the viewer side for a while, I gather. Oz has specified TPVs will hopefully get an 8-weeks heads-up on when the code is going to be available.
[12:19]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	theres a mail list for opensource development where he will post that info into
[12:19]	Geenzian Scientist (geenz.spad) 	terrain, the standard SL avatar mesh
[12:19]	Eleanora Newell 	that would be great, nyx
[12:19]	Tillie Ariantho 	Geenz: aha. What would material include, for example?
[12:19]	mahadma 	Id like custom skeletons :D
[12:19]	Eleanora Newell 	and how do we get onto the opensource-dev mailing list, nyx?
[12:19]	Almut Brunswick 	How will the average creator react? "Why do I need materials when I can apply textures directly in SL?"
[12:19]	arton Rotaru 	this would be it https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-1905?
[12:20]	JIRA-helper 	[#STORM-1905] Add support for Normal & Specular Maps - Second Life Bug Tracker
[12:20]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	the material's project should take all that much effert to put into TPVs, most don't go changing the rendering stuff from LL's code all that much
[12:20]	Tillie Ariantho 	Go there for the list: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
[12:20]	Ravelli Ormstein 	so materials will not be a christmas surprise... ohh
[12:20]	Geenzian Scientist (geenz.spad) 	diffuse map, normal map, specular map, specular exponent, environment map intensity (sky reflection), and a few selectors for the actual diffuse map alpha mode (alpha blend, alpha mask, emissive mask, or none)
[12:20]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo
[12:20]	Eleanora Newell 	almut: look here http://www.geenzo.com/2012/08/17/second-life-materials/ this is why you would want materials
[12:20]	Geenzian Scientist (geenz.spad) 	those are the kinds of maps that I can confirm
[12:21]	Eleanora Newell 	that's a great list of map types to begin with
[12:21]	Maxwell Graf 	yus
[12:21]	Ravelli Ormstein 	/me adds chocolate maps
[12:21]	Almut Brunswick 	Ele, this is again not an official source
[12:21]	Geenzian Scientist (geenz.spad) 	there's a couple of parameters I'm missing there, but that's the gist of it more or less
[12:22]	Exosius Woolley 	maybe off topic but it has always seemed to me that hierarchical grouping and the ability to move the rotation pivot would be better building tools that extremely detailed surfaces
[12:22]	Geenzian Scientist (geenz.spad) 	I'm an official source on materials! :P
[12:22]	Exosius Woolley 	than*
[12:22]	Eleanora Newell 	almut, most won't be
[12:22]	Tillie Ariantho 	o/
[12:22]	arton Rotaru 	pivot points
[12:22]	Geenzian Scientist (geenz.spad) 	(as is geenzo.com, which is my own website afterall)
[12:22]	Tiberious Neruda 	what about fixing shininess underwater with deferred rendering?
[12:23]	Eleanora Newell 	almut: but geenz came up with the proposal, so it is pretty relevant
[12:23]	Almut Brunswick 	IN my branch, this would be inacceptable. Leading source for a new invention should always be the manufacturer.
[12:23]	Maxwell Graf 	the alpha variations specifically will be interesting. Will any of those help with the alpha flicker the way mipmapping would, to reduce it?
[12:23]	Ravelli Ormstein 	/me hopes to get good tutorials about materials one day
[12:23]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	or no shadows with invisiprims in differed :P
[12:23]	Geenzian Scientist (geenz.spad) 	alpha flicker? you mean alpha sorting issues?
[12:23]	Maxwell Graf 	yus
[12:24]	Geenzian Scientist (geenz.spad) 	alpha mask will allow you to treat a surface as if sections of it were either opaque or completely transparent
[12:24]	Geenzian Scientist (geenz.spad) 	this doesn't require any sort of special sorting
[12:24]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	theres ways to deal with that, but generally they are highly computationally expensive
[12:24]	Almut Brunswick 	Ravelli, a suitable documentation which is helpful for the majority of users should be part of the product, not just an annying apendix
[12:25]	Geenzian Scientist (geenz.spad) 	but at the expense of, you can't have semi-transparency on the surface
[12:25]	Nyx Linden 	ok a couple of topics are added, we're already talking about materials, but there is also "Maxwell Graf has an important topic, ask him. Silver Key 12:14, 12 November 2012 (PST)" -Maxwell please feel free to add your topic to the agenda
[12:25]	Nyx Linden 	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group
[12:25]	Tiberious Neruda 	...will materials allow us to do translucent and shiny?
[12:25]	Maxwell Graf 	o.o
[12:26]	Geenzian Scientist (geenz.spad) 	Tiberious: that one's a really big maybe
[12:26]	Maxwell Graf 	news to me, im just here to see whats happening and gather info. :)
[12:26]	Tiberious Neruda 	there was a time, a LONG time ago, where we could actually do that, without the invisiprim hack
[12:26]	Gramma Fiddlesticks 	/me NEEDS her "shiny"!
[12:26]	Eleanora Newell 	nods, yes, as nyx pointed out last week
[12:26]	Tiberious Neruda 	but something happened and they pulle dit
[12:27]	Tiberious Neruda 	I think it was not long after flexiprims came, just to give a timeframe
[12:27]	Geenzian Scientist (geenz.spad) 	there's a number of things that will have to happen with the rendering system to effectively support that
[12:28]	Geenzian Scientist (geenz.spad) 	so I can't really promise anything with regards to shiny (and materials in general) working on semi-transparent objects
[12:28]	Tillie Ariantho 	Is this bein worked on yet? I see it assigned to Oz: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-1800
[12:28]	JIRA-helper 	[#STORM-1800] The vertex weights of the default character mesh could be better. - Second Life Bug Tracker
[12:28]	Tiberious Neruda 	okay... but what about the bug I mentioned earlier?
[12:28]	Tiberious Neruda 	shininess not working underwater
[12:28]	Tiberious Neruda 	(with deferred rendering on)
[12:29]	Geenzian Scientist (geenz.spad) 	that one's probably a little bit out of my jurisdiction presently :P
[12:29]	Tiberious Neruda 	it works right with non-deferred
[12:30]	Nyx Linden 	is there a JIRA for that issue? I can ask Runitai what the details of that one are
[12:30]	Tiberious Neruda 	I know there's one for 'with shadows enabled'
[12:31]	Geenzian Scientist (geenz.spad) 	that would be relevant
[12:31]	Drongle McMahon 	We can't see the jira.
[12:31]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	theres another issue with invisiprims casting shadows in differed mode
[12:31]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	so thats why runitai disabled invisiprims in differed
[12:32]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Tillie, in regard to 1800 Oz once said there were some Lindens looking at what could be done without breaking things. Some people created files individuals users could add to the viewer to improve the avatar. but it has been awhile since Oz has talked about where the Lab is in regard to 1800...
[12:32]	Tillie Ariantho 	I got the stuff from the jira and replaced it in my viewer. doesnt look broken so far. ^^
[12:33]	Theresa Tennyson 	Last time I heard about 1800 Oz was saying there isn't a way to test it. Dolphin's been using the changes for quite a while in their release viewers.
[12:33]	Tillie Ariantho 	I got a small batch too to install the files after each installation.
[12:34]	Nyx Linden 	I'll ping oz about the status of that issue
[12:34]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	1800?
[12:34]	Tiberious Neruda 	....
[12:34]	Nyx Linden 	any other topics for today?
[12:34]	Tillie Ariantho 	I've not seen a broken avatar yet, and I see a lot of avatars in detail, in all those fashion shows and events. ;)
[12:35]	Tillie Ariantho 	(499 by now)
[12:35]	Kennylex Luckless 	Weeee!
[12:35]	mahadma 	the belly of doom
[12:35]	Theresa Tennyson 	Tank, STORM-1800 is for revised weighting of the default avatar mesh.
[12:35]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	just a general reminder that Runitai's group list loading code gets rolled out grid wide tomorrow
[12:35]	Darien Caldwell 	When I first saw that JIRA I was concerned, because it changes the avatar's weights. I have created products that mimmic those weights closely.
[12:35]	Eleanora Newell 	geenz, as far as applying the maps for the object, do you see that as taking place within sl and does that mean uploading each map separately or possibly within the mesh uploader?
[12:35]	Kennylex Luckless 	Or make two new default mesh for better weight and tail.
[12:36]	Darien Caldwell 	i always meant to try the new stuff with my products to see how much if any it breaks them
[12:36]	Darien Caldwell 	but never got around to it
[12:36]	mahadma 	Aye tail :D
[12:36]	Nyx Linden 	please do let us know what you find Darien
[12:36]	Darien Caldwell 	yes i'll get with Tillie, to help me install the files :)
[12:36]	Tiberious Neruda 	gah....
[12:37]	Exosius Woolley 	yeah new features always have the possibility of breaking user content huh?
[12:37]	Exosius Woolley 	since we all work around constraits
[12:37]	Tiberious Neruda 	can't find it
[12:37]	Nyx Linden 	alright, thanks for coming out everyone!
[12:37]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	thanks for your time!
[12:37]	arton Rotaru 	thanks for having us
[12:37]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	have a good week everyone
[12:37]	Eleanora Newell 	thanks, nyx
[12:38]	Ravelli Ormstein 	many thanks for this meeting
[12:38]	Nyx Linden 	have a great week, happy veteran's day (observed) for those in the US!
[12:38]	mahadma 	Bye bee :D
[12:38]	Exosius Woolley 	/me gives Nyx some silicon chips and dip as a snack
[12:38]	Timmi Allen 	thankx nyx
[12:38]	Maxwell Graf 	thanks
[12:38]	Lares Carter 	Thanks for the meeting.
[12:38]	Casanova Frankenstein (roblem.hogarth) 	Thanks all, Bye!
[12:38]	Almut Brunswick 	Thanks for having me here
[12:38]	Timmi Allen 	bye
[12:38]	Kennylex Luckless 	ty
[12:38]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Thx Lindens
[12:38]	osterhase Yellowjacket 	than ks everyone
[12:38]	Tiberious Neruda 	......
[12:38]	mahadma 	Now to figure out the tail
[12:38]	osterhase Yellowjacket 	thanks nyx:))
[12:38]	arton Rotaru 	laters
[12:38]	Kennylex Luckless 	And remember the new law.
[12:38]	mahadma 	which one?
[12:38]	Maxwell Graf 	bye all, good to see everyone again.
[12:38]	Ravelli Ormstein 	Ade H√§schen!
[12:38]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Thank you Nyx.
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