WindLight/Office Hours/2008-01-22

Maarten Supercharge: Hi there misters Linden^^
BigPapi Linden: hello
Pastrami Linden: Hey all- WindLight office hours starting now!
Maarten Supercharge: I have a simple quiestion (I hope)
Pastrami Linden: IM me any questions !
Pastrami Linden: (PLease IM me the questions so I can process them in order. THanks!)
Maarten Supercharge: My preference dont get saved, I have to set 'm each time I restart
Maarten Supercharge: sorry
Harleen Gretzky: preferences not being saved is this JIRA issue: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-4015
Pastrami Linden: Maarten, does that jira seem to cover it?
Pastrami Linden: well, while you check
Pastrami Linden: Pavig Lok: Hello sir - i was wondering if the snapshots not being centered on screen and wierd angles when taking photos in windlight is a known issue (i have examples if you want)
Pastrami Linden: Pavig, there are a number of known issues with screenshots
Pastrami Linden: we're going to get to them soon once we finish up the big compatibility issues we're working on
Pastrami Linden: :)
Pastrami Linden: any other questions?
Pavig Lok: phew - is what i was saying a jira issue cause i couldn't find it specifically and for me it 100% reproducable all the time
Harleen Gretzky: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-3984 is snapshot issues in WL
Pastrami Linden: let me check
Pastrami Linden: Pavig does that seem to cover it?
Pavig Lok: that's certainly some of it - might update that one with more specifics from tests i've done
Pavig Lok: thankey
Pastrami Linden: np
Pastrami Linden: and thank Harleen!
Pastrami Linden: :)
Pastrami Linden: [8:11] A C: Why you don't close VWR-3268 ? (https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-3268) [8:11] A C: (Ctrl+Alt+E ) = €
A C: I think this bug is finished doesn't it ?
Pastrami Linden: good point- closing right now
Pastrami Linden: :)
A C: :)
Pastrami Linden: closed!
Pastrami Linden: any other questions?
Pastrami Linden: [8:13] A C: Do you plan to work on Dynamic reflection ?
A C: I love it !
Pastrami Linden: that will probably come some time around the materials system
Pastrami Linden: which is a few projects off
Pastrami Linden: anything else?
A C: what is the materials system ?
Pastrami Linden: Why, an inworld radio that plays nonstop Madonna hits from the 80s, of course
Pastrami Linden: the materials system will be a rework that will allow many more material types in SL
Pastrami Linden: if you're familiar with normal maps, specular masks, etc.
Pastrami Linden: multitexturing
A C: ok
Pavig Lok: aieeee - from what i understand folk made such a fuss about how shiny is shiny that some lindies thought a few more sliders for how stuff look might be handy - at least that what i hear
Pastrami Linden: dynamic reflections are pretty advanced compared to some other materials that we don't even support yet!
Pastrami Linden: so we need to solve those first
Pavig Lok: normal maps ftw!
Pastrami Linden: :)
Pastrami Linden: anything else, anyone?
Pastrami Linden: queue is empty, people
Pastrami Linden: send me dem questions
Pavig Lok thinks
Pastrami Linden loves the sweet, sonorous sound of "boing boing boing"
Pastrami Linden: heh, that worked
Pastrami Linden: :)
Pavig Lok: oh - is there any possibility of an anti-bloom - like negative bloom that makes things darker (for you know evil wizard glow and stuff)
Pastrami Linden: Pavig, please IM questions to me
Pastrami Linden: [8:20] A C: will you work on the graphic problem when we see 2 transparents ?
A C: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-27
BigPapi Linden: A C: nope
A C: erf, why ?
BigPapi Linden: Because that's an impossible problem to solve.
A C: why ?
BigPapi Linden: And making it *better* would make it much slower.
A C: ok
BigPapi Linden: Because that requires PRECISE sorting of alpha objects.
Brad Linden: and clipping
BigPapi Linden: and the more precise you get the when sorting transparent objects the slower it is and longer it takes.
A C: it's an Open GL problem ?
Pavig Lok: alpha ordering bugs are common to all realtime graphics systems - thre is hope for the future with raytracing systems but for now it's an unsolvable problem (tho some solutions are more reliable than others)
BigPapi Linden: More than that. It's a computer graphics issue.
Pastrami Linden: we should mark that issue as such, then
Pastrami Linden: (note to Torley ;) )
BigPapi Linden: ANY video game engine would have similar issues if you created many overlapping transparent objects in the same way.
Pastrami Linden: [8:21] Pavig Lok: oh - is there any possibility of an anti-bloom - like negative bloom that makes things darker (for you know evil wizard glow and stuff)
Pastrami Linden: Pavig, that's a great idea
BigPapi Linden: And yes, pavig is correct. You'd need raytracing to solve it properly.
Pastrami Linden: though I don;t know how soon that might come
Pastrami Linden: we eventually want to do a more robust post-processing system,
Pastrami Linden: where you can define your own
Pastrami Linden: it would probably become available around then
BigPapi Linden: Have to jump in actually.
BigPapi Linden: Negative bloom might not be possible.
BigPapi Linden: Without reworking things substantially.
BigPapi Linden: and breaking content created with current bloom
Pavig Lok was just thinking glow paramater extended to negative values (if it's a possibility with the post processing algos you use)
BigPapi Linden: So I doubt we'll include it in the future.
BigPapi Linden: Not possible.
BigPapi Linden: The frame buffer only stores values from 0 to 1
BigPapi Linden: It *might* be possible, but I wouldn't wait for it as of now.
Dimitrio Lewis: reminds me of the talk about black lights to create shadows when local lighting was introduced
Pastrami Linden: [8:27] Marauder Bamaisin: This is a question involving a bug that happened to me, it was 2 days ago when this happened I was talking to some people then I crashed, when I logged back on most of my stuff in my inventory vanished and it is still like that... any ideas?
Pastrami Linden: hmm, sounds decidedly non-WindLight :)
BigPapi Linden: Click on Help->Second Life Help (or just hit the F1 key) and file a support ticket.
BigPapi Linden: Not much we can do for you here.
BigPapi Linden: Good luck!
Marauder Bamaisin: so pretty much most of my stuff that disappeared is permantly gone then I suppose...
Pastrami Linden: not necessarily
Brad Linden: Marauder: have you tried clearing your cache?
Pastrami Linden: we're just not the guys who can help with that=
Pavig Lok: clear cache and log in again sometimes prompts it - when you log in open your inventory and search for something random, leave it open - close and reopen to prompt continued loading. can take a while with big inventory.... that fails it's time for support ticket
Pastrami Linden: [8:29] A C: How big is studio windlight now ? (employes)
Pastrami Linden: ONe Million Employees
Pastrami Linden: give or take
A C: only ?!!
Pastrami Linden: :)
Pastrami Linden: let's see,
Pastrami Linden: not counting our QA and build teams,
Pastrami Linden: we're about 6-7
A C: ok
A C: do you plan tu recruit ?
A C: to*
Pastrami Linden: well, we're always looking for good talent,
Pastrami Linden: but I don;t think we'd go out and specifically recruit *for* WindLight
Pastrami Linden: though /me wants more graphics devs!
A C: ok :)
Pastrami Linden: vishooelz is kewl
A C: and you all work in Boston ?
Pastrami Linden: most of us
Pastrami Linden: some are in SF
A C: ah ok
A C: Thank you, I don't have anymore question :/
Pastrami Linden: hehe
Pastrami Linden: looks like you ain't the only one ;)
Pastrami Linden: <chirp>
Pastrami Linden: <chirp>
BigPapi Linden: *crickets*
Pastrami Linden: s'ppose it's a good sign
Pastrami Linden: :)
BigPapi Linden: Yup
A C: You are not too afraid as Windlight will become the official viewer ?
Pastrami Linden: afraid of what?
Pastrami Linden: compatibility?
A C: yes
A C: and new bugs
A C: or something you missed
Pastrami Linden: well, we still have Release Candidate to go through
A C: right
Pastrami Linden: plus, even if there are new bugs,
Pastrami Linden: I think the net win is going to be huge-
Pastrami Linden: remember, with everyone using the old viewer, they're missing on *hundreds* of new improvements
Pastrami Linden: and I don't mean pretty skies
Pastrami Linden: :)
Pastrami Linden: just impostors alone will be huge boon
Pastrami Linden: but yes, there will be bugs
A C: ok
Jeremy Linden waves sheepishly.
Jeremy Linden: Hi all, sorry I'm late.
A C: when windlight will become RC, There will be only two viewers: RC and official ?
Brad Linden: I think the Dazzle project was potentially gonna start a firstlook phase soon.
Pavig Lok: dazzle be skinning?
Pastrami Linden: yeah
Harleen Gretzky: yes, Benjamin Linden's project https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Dazzle
Pastrami Linden: [8:42] Pavig Lok: oh i has a question - jeremy linden may know too - new windlight vs old client seems to have different client side lag conditions.... is there any documentation for identifying and reducing lag on sims and builds with the old and new clients?
BigPapi Linden: Pavig, that's not entirely accurate. WL without using the advanced features should be either the same or faster than the old client under all conditions.
Jeremy Linden: That would be, to my knowledge, entirely rendering-related. We are working on an initiative to try to help people build more efficiently for better performance, though.
BigPapi Linden: With the full atmospheric shaders turned on, then yes overdraw for one becomes much more costly (having lots and lots of transparent objects).
BigPapi Linden: As well as overall fill rate lots small dense objects that don't get occluded by anything.
BigPapi Linden: But overall the main bottlenecks will remain batch size (unique textures and object rendering properties)
BigPapi Linden: and overdraw (too much transparency)
Pavig Lok: can we rely on megaprims to occlude in windlight? we've had a lot of "your mileage may vary" trying to figure out what exactly works for occlusion
BigPapi Linden: So in any case minimizing the number of batches and amount of overdraw will result in better performance on both viewers.
Jeremy Linden: I'll be working with these guys to put all this in practical terms in coming months ;-)
Pastrami Linden: hehe
Brad Linden: I'd say megaprims can't be counted on to occlude because they can't be counted on to be downloaded to the viewer
Pastrami Linden: any other questions?
Brad Linden: they may also not behave well in the octtree occlusion code in the viewer even if they get downloaded properly
Pavig Lok: aha! thanks brad that was helpful
Brad Linden: np
Pastrami Linden: [8:51] Pavig Lok: will there be any way to control how agressive avatar imposters is in converting folk to bitmaps?
Pastrami Linden: well, Pavig
Pastrami Linden: have you played with the Avatar detai slider?
Pavig Lok: yups but it seemed pretty harsh - sometimes would convert folk to bitmap when only a few meters away
Pavig Lok: for instance on default dimitrio is impostered to me and he's under 10m from me
Dimitrio Lewis: I'm not an imposter, my alt is!
BigPapi Linden: pavig, that's what we mean, push the avatar detail slider all the way to the right.
BigPapi Linden: That should make it a LOT less agressive.
BigPapi Linden: impostor distance increases and impostor count decreases the further to the right you have that slider.
Pastrami Linden: alright all, winding down
Pastrami Linden: 5 mins to go!
Pavig Lok: aha thanks
walid Pera: goo away
Sam73 Canning: helllo
Pastrami Linden: 3 mins....
Pavig Lok: oh well... thanks for your time lindies :)
Pastrami Linden: [8:59] Net Antwerp: Any ETA when the ATi problems are going to be fixed? Atmospheric Shading and Rippled Water/Water Reflections still doesn't work as expected with some ATi cards
Pastrami Linden: BigPapi?
Pastrami Linden: soon, very soon-
Pastrami Linden: says a trusted source right next to me
Pastrami Linden: :)
Pastrami Linden: [9:01] Pavig Lok: the last two updates of windlight client i've been hearing a lot about low framerates on stock standard macs - a friend has tested using windows and linux using the same gfx card and got significantly better frame rates on them - is this a known issue or being worked on?
Pastrami Linden: Pavig, known issues- Mac is one of our most heavily worked-upon problems right now
Pastrami Linden: alright all, last question count down
Pastrami Linden: 10
BigPapi Linden: And many of the performance problems on mac have been fixed internally already.
Pastrami Linden: 9
Pastrami Linden: 8
Net Antwerp: as long as it's fixed by the time windlight goes mainstream, I'm happy
Pastrami Linden: 7
BigPapi Linden: seis
Pastrami Linden: oh yeah
Pastrami Linden: 5
BigPapi Linden: cuatro
Pastrami Linden: 3
BigPapi Linden: dos
Pastrami Linden: 1
Pastrami Linden: el blast off
BigPapi Linden: Thanks for coming to the office hours everyone!
Pavig Lok: yay thanks pastrami
Pastrami Linden: alright all, thanks again for a good round!