Doc Team/2010-09-08

== Transcript ==
[12:59]	:	Hey guys. Welcome to Documentation Office Hours.
[12:59]	:	Hi !
[12:59]	:	hi
[13:00]	:	hello ty
[13:00]	:	I'll give folks a few more minutes to arrive, but I suspect Oz Linden's office hour is going to be more popular today, given recent events.
[13:01]	:	Oz is on what? viewers?
[13:01]	:	Open source issues.
[13:01]	:	ah... ok
[13:01]	:	oh
[13:01]	:	I was at yoz's a while back... can I give you an Note to read?
[13:02]	:	Sure!
[13:02]	:	the subject of account cancellation poped up there
[13:02]	:	and he found an instant answer... Yay...
[13:03]	:	but we all felt the need to check if that's documented the same way
[13:04]	:	Ah, interesting. I know I saw an article on delinquent accounts the other day... I wonder if it covers this.
[13:04]	:	I was to busy with my own wiki issues so I had not had a proper change to dig for it
[13:06]	:	Hm. There's an unofficial article here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/What_happens_to_delinquent_accounts
[13:06]	:	That one seems out of date.
[13:06]	:	well now that I got your "attention" about it... what needs / can be done
[13:08]	:	Well, it's a wiki. The page isn't protected, so anyone can go in there and fix it, though if I were to do it myself I'd want to confirm this internally first.
[13:08]	:	haha... tell me about it...
[13:08]	:	been having many wiki issues my self with the SLRR related pages
[13:08]	:	SLRR?
[13:08]	:	even torley had a say in it
[13:08]	:	Second Life Railroad
[13:08]	:	Ah!
[13:09]	:	there is someone makeing new avs every few mins for almost 2 months now griefeing me and all my friends its realy bad ive had to make this new alt to hide from them they r sending out note cards with things on them saying they r from my main alt its look like copy things on the nc how can we stop them we have done so many ars
[13:10]	:	Obsession, I would recommend that you continue to file ARs, and make sure to include clear details each time. Our support team is very busy, but they should definitely see each one.
[13:11]	:	Hi !
[13:11]	:	Qie
[13:12]	:	Stryker, with regard to the wiki, I'm currently assigned to a project to completely overhaul the "knowledge base" section of the wiki, condensing and updating it into something easier to navigate.
[13:12]	:	ok just dont like the griefer giveing out bad things saying it from me its what i hate the most
[13:12]	:	Hiya, Stryker. :) Jeremy, Obsession
[13:12]	 	has pinged you.
[13:12]	:	Hi Qie
[13:12]	:	Hi Qie.
[13:13]	:	Obsession, make sure you include specific details in the ARs about what kinds of things the griefer is doing. If it turns out he's violating the TOS or community standards, he'll be in a lot of trouble.
[13:14]	:	can you talk about about what rights users have on the wiki? I have setup a hand full of pages relating to the railroad on the Heterocera Atoll... but some other Residents thinks he nows better and started to remove suff from it...
[13:14]	:	Trouble is I don't know what I leagaly can / can't do there... and there seems no one to be contacted about it
[13:15]	:	Stryker, I've been watching that since you first mentioned it... it's really ugly. A classic exercise in "this is why we can't have nice things"
[13:15]	:	Hm. That's unfortunate, Stryker. Most Residents have normal wiki rights to create, edit and delete, and revert pages as they see fit. Some pages can be put under "flagged revisions", which require approval from designated reviewers before changes become public.
[13:16]	:	Generally, flagged revisions is reserved for things like the knowledge base and other quasi-official pages.
[13:17]	:	it's valuable content, or some of it is, anyway. but not something that would be "knowledge base" material exactly, where it could get protected.
[13:17]	:	well Zai and Danial also know about the issues over the last Month or 2
[13:17]	:	at first it was just a case of the other resident putting in "warnings" "this page is not impartial" and quoting wikipadia rules
[13:18]	:	but now he removed 50% of the SLRR History too...
[13:18]	:	the knowledgebase is not wikipedia, obviously
[13:18]	:	and I don't want to start pulling on a dead horse to keep correcting it
[13:19]	:	Oy. As far as I know, we don't officially adhere to rules like that. I try to keep my tone impartial, but the greater wiki is used for so many things that some of it is necessarily colored by opinion.
[13:19]	:	well this is "general" wiki... not KB
[13:19]	:	not sure if there is a difference
[13:19]	:	ok, even worse in that case :)
[13:20]	:	2 groups... 2 points of view... all wanting the same thing but in a different way
[13:20]	:	I don't know anymore
[13:20]	:	I don't know that we have much precedent for this, actually. Up until now, nothing so major has been brought to my attention. It bears discussion with my other Linden wiki stakeholders.
[13:21]	:	well this is what Torley wrote about it
[13:21]	:	# If there continues to still be conflict over what belongs in a single page and consensus can't be reached, I recommend that new pages with their own perspective should be created, all linked reciprocally so that visitors can read them and make up their own minds. That way, each of the different groups involved in this can present their side of the story without feeling trampled. But "edit warring" must stop.
[13:21]	:	oh, hiya Mari
[13:21]	:	Good point
[13:22]	:	Hiya
[13:22]	:	Hm. Until such time as we have any kind of policy on impartial tone, I think Torley's solution is a workable one.
[13:22]	:	and ...
[13:22]	:	This text-brawl needs to end now for everyone involved. I've given Jer Straaf a warning due to unuseful, inflammatory rambling which doesn't constructively followup on my earlier comments. Remember that there are many external places where dissenting opinions can be raised. This wiki, however, is owned by Linden Lab. - on 2010-09-02 @ 9:19 AM Pacific
[13:22]	:	Hiya Marianne.
[13:22]	:	re, marianne! ;)
[13:23]	:	but in the meantime the pages get... (pardon the word chooise)... raped on a daily basis
[13:23]	:	yay, way to go Jeremy, strike that griefer down1 lolo
[13:23]	 	has pinged you.
[13:23]	:	Ah, I know what yer all talkin about. What a mess
[13:23]	:	uh oh. Mari, you appear to be en aspic
[13:23]	:	That guy is not gonna stop
[13:23]	:	Eh? I don't think I did anything to someone yet.
[13:23]	:	well, Jon ain't here, so I figured I'd take his seat
[13:23]	:	hehehe
[13:24]	:	hi all
[13:24]	:	Absorbed by the Jellotar!
[13:24]	:	/me snickers
[13:24]	:	:)
[13:24]	:	Hi Rinobit
[13:24]	:	Hello RINOBIT. Welcome to Documentation Office Hours.
[13:24]	:	Lime-y goodness
[13:25]	:	Where, somewhat surprisingly, we're discussing documentation!
[13:25]	:	I should drop by more offten?
[13:25]	:	haha
[13:25]	:	i've alway found the documentation to be useful , but since my skills are small ,my needs are small
[13:25]	:	hmm, speaking of documentation, is this office hour supposed to be listed twice, with two different locations? :D
[13:26]	:	Definitely! I must admit, the wiki as a whole is somewhat of a weak suit for me. Traditionally I've been more heavily involved in the KB and online help.
[13:26]	:	Different locations? :-O
[13:26]	:	yup
[13:26]	:	http://slurl.com/secondlife/Beaumont/38/173/33/ and http://slurl.com/secondlife/Beaumont/25/165/34
[13:26]	:	I've been watching the issues with those SLRR pages for a while now. It seems clear to me that there's a lot of... um... acrimony, with a certain party heck-bent on causing trouble in that one section
[13:27]	:	go here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Office_Hours then search for "knowledge base"
[13:27]	:	pardon my ignorance but what really makes the kb different from the wiki? overall i just look up what i need to know, I don't really care where it comes from as long as the information is reliable...
[13:27]	:	Heh! I guess it's been posted more than once. I think what likely happened is that Jon or I created an office hour listing on one of our personal pages, and someone else created a team office hour listing separately.
[13:27]	:	oh :)
[13:27]	:	a bit ironic :D
[13:28]	:	difference in SLRUL is only meters
[13:28]	:	so not that different
[13:28]	:	Vista, that's a good question. Formerly, the KB wasn't part of the wiki... most of what's in there now came from a separate system. These days, it basically just means, "This information came from Linden Lab directly."
[13:28]	:	Vista, non-KB parts of the wiki may *not* be all that reliable. Heck, even I may have written it.
[13:28]	:	so then, the KB is directly from you or the wiki is
[13:28]	:	o i c! thanks !
[13:28]	:	Or worse, me
[13:29]	:	marianne, u've been here a long time, and ur good, and reliable! u can be depended on! ^_^
[13:29]	:	The KB is theoretically written by (or approved by) Linden Lab. The rest of the wiki is... well, a wiki :-)
[13:29]	:	Yer too kind
[13:29]	:	/me grins
[13:29]	:	So what your saying is basicly.... live with the constant attacks on wiki pages that are created... Is there no official rulling to be had?
[13:29]	:	a little off-topic: does anybody know (Mari?) whether folks still look at the wikia ?
[13:30]	:	what would one have to do to finally put a stop to it?
[13:30]	:	Qie - I was on that old site just this morning
[13:30]	:	There is no on-the-spot ruling to be had. I'm certainly going to take this issue back to my team (and related teams) to see what we can do about it.
[13:30]	:	there is a counter under every page Qie
[13:30]	:	better volunteers to oversee it? there's not much vetting in wiki, is there?
[13:31]	:	Well I have heard of atleast 1 other issue like "ours" but containing different RP groups
[13:31]	:	there's a more scholarly version of the wiki, but i can't remember it's name and CEARTAINLY can't tell u how they manage it
[13:31]	:	That would be great Jeremy. I'm surer there has to be some precedent. IMO, I would advise trying to do ones best to not "respond to the bait," but it's clear that that particular person ha found several buttons he wants to push
[13:31]	 	has pinged you.
[13:31]	:	and I am sure there are much more
[13:31]	:	but it may be something to look into . . it's called universe- something... i think.. :/
[13:31]	:	omg trolls, TROLLS!
[13:32]	:	Jeremy... maybe you know... what's LL stands on copyright stuff on the wiki... who owns what
[13:32]	 	has pinged you.
[13:32]	:	FWIW, though, Qie, the wikia site (which is not official LL stuff) is largely unmaintained, and nowadays overrun with the various inworld military groups pwning each others entries
[13:32]	:	I saw a user take a picture of a texture in world that is not publicly availible.... and use that on the wiki
[13:33]	:	u cannot possibly police all texture uses
[13:33]	:	thanks Mari... I just stumbled on some of that. ah well.
[13:33]	:	I imagine a lot of that would fall under the TOS rules on inword photography and machinima
[13:33]	:	Heh. Last I heard about copyright issues on wikis, it was a very complicated legal issue that was still being sorted out by the lawyers of the world. In the asbsence of any existing policy from us, I'd suggest reading up on wiki ownership and copyright issues in the real world.
[13:33]	:	Qie - as that was born out of the old slhistory wiki, it's great for finding some old historical bits. Beyond that, noy so much
[13:33]	:	not*
[13:34]	:	right: definitely not the place to park SLRR information.
[13:34]	:	Stryker there is an agreement people modifying the wiki has to agree to: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Project:Contribution_Agreement
[13:34]	:	Qie - nope. the wikia site would be a dead end for that, IMO
[13:35]	:	Marianne, are you talking about http://secondlife.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page ?
[13:35]	:	Thanks Kiptic... will read that later.
[13:35]	:	yes. Qie was asking about that. Not LL stuff
[13:35]	:	/me grins
[13:35]	:	If you lose the link it's listed below the edit window :)
[13:35]	:	Still picking your brain here Jeremy...
[13:35]	 	has pinged you.
[13:36]	:	what about different namespaces in the Wiki... are there different "rights" there?
[13:36]	:	I used to edit over there, but largely lost interest when it went from slhistory.org to secondlife.wikia.com
[13:36]	:	Doing the best I can, Stryker, sorry if some of my answers are a little lightweight.
[13:36]	:	(because it lost the focus that drove me on it)
[13:37]	:	Some namespaces are special... For instance, I know that Linden Lab makes official use of "Linden_Lab_Official:" and "Viewerhelp:", and there are special permissions set for each. I'm not terribly familiar with others.
[13:37]	:	haha (making Jeremy work for his money today)...
[13:37]	 	has pinged you.
[13:37]	:	Hey, I'm really glad to be talking about documentation issues here for once :-)
[13:37]	:	I recall such namespaces being promoted around the time of the kb2wiki changeover
[13:37]	:	but say... "user namespace" won't solve the issue right?
[13:38]	:	I'm not sure I understand.
[13:38]	:	(Thoe specific ones you mentioend, that is)
[13:38]	:	well ever user has the right to make his / her / it's own pages under /wiki/User:First Lastname
[13:38]	:	Yeah. Linden Lab Official pages are protected. They're for stuff like policy and pricing info. Stuff we don't want people to be able to change :-)
[13:39]	:	but everyone is allowed to edit them too?
[13:39]	:	that would be fun :)
[13:39]	:	hey Jermery i have brother thats on the Teen grid grid
[13:39]	:	So much for those "Marianne McCann gets free tier 4 life" edits....
[13:39]	:	:D
[13:39]	:	/me giggles and would LOVE to change sim prices lower lol
[13:39]	:	that'd make it Bunny-official! lol
[13:40]	:	hey Jermery i have brother thats on the Teen grid grid
[13:40]	:	Hm. I'mt not sure about editing other peoples' user pages. I imagine it's possible, unless there's some special behavior for that namespace.
[13:40]	:	Ya, I'm not sure. I believe I helped a friend set up their user: once, but that was some time back
[13:40]	:	his name is Legoman Karu cab you go talk to him on the main grid
[13:40]	:	stryker, you can try to edit one of mine. https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Qie_Niangao/Zindra is one that's way irrelevant now
[13:42]	:	Is wiki arssery an AR'able offence... if so ... how would one prove it / compile evidence about it?
[13:42]	:	no problems there Qie
[13:42]	:	Lego, I'm sorry but I can't go to the teen grid right now.
[13:42]	:	oh what a GREAT idea!
[13:42]	:	cool... I expected it would work.
[13:42]	:	but could the lindens quench it if it's as bad at I'm hearing, at this state?
[13:42]	:	yup, it should, or you couldn't put notes on other people's pages :)
[13:43]	:	Qie - you were just askin up to mess with your page, weren't you?
[13:43]	:	/me winks
[13:43]	:	:D
[13:43]	:	maybe we should remove that stuff again :D
[13:43]	:	Lindens have the power to block users.... but in this case some other user will probebly just continue the work
[13:43]	:	hehehe... now I'm afraid to hit refresh. :p
[13:43]	:	:D
[13:44]	:	same goes for grief anywhere, Stryker
[13:44]	:	well Qie you go ahead and remove it :)
[13:44]	:	the only question in my mind was whether ll felt it had the resources to deploy against that
[13:44]	:	Wiki vandalism certainly sounds like an AR-able offense. I'm not sure we have a category for it, but if you point people to the page, should the history not speak for itself? It'd have to be discernable as vandalism or trolling, though. Differences of opinion might require different handling.
[13:44]	:	personally , my human has a good mind filter
[13:44]	:	Thats why I started this coversation with "I don't know any more".
[13:44]	:	Heck the telling off from Torley did not seem to work
[13:44]	:	oops have to run, thanks for a nice discussion guys
[13:45]	:	Thanks for coming, Kiptic!
[13:45]	:	:)
[13:45]	:	This text-brawl needs to end now for everyone involved. I've given Jer Straaf a warning due to unuseful, inflammatory rambling which doesn't constructively followup on my earlier comments. Remember that there are many external places where dissenting opinions can be raised. This wiki, however, is owned by Linden Lab. - on 2010-09-02 @ 9:19 AM Pacific
[13:45]	:	Get lost!
[13:45]	:	Stryker - I would like to think that, with proper documentation provided to [whoever handles abuse nowadays since the end of G-Team] would be a possibility
[13:45]	:	have fun Kiptic
[13:45]	:	you too
[13:45]	:	*pof*
[13:47]	:	Boo!
[13:47]	:	anyway... I am going to give it one more go on the wiki... makeing sure I clearly mark where the info I put up there comes from
[13:47]	:	Congratulations on finding your gesture menu, Djay
[13:47]	:	/me grins
[13:47]	:	im still testing :-)
[13:47]	:	As I was saying earlier, I hadn't realized things were so crazy right now outside my usual corner of the wiki. I'll definitely be bringing these issues up with Jon, Torley, Rand, and other Linden wiki stakeholders and see whether we can't hammer out some kind of behavior guidelines (and consequences for breaking them repeatedly)
[13:47]	:	I can tell
[13:47]	:	/me grins
[13:48]	:	LOLZ god hack ali virgo banned Sunny*007
[13:48]	:	Stop messing with our emrlad
[13:48]	:	lol
[13:48]	:	well I ( the Virtual Railway Consortium) can ask for more
[13:48]	:	frown
[13:48]	:	:-D
[13:48]	:	whoops... we "can't ask for more"
[13:48]	:	Yellows, I think you might want Oz Linden's office hour in Hippotropolis. He handles open source issues and he should be there right now!
[13:49]	:	Obcession gave me full perm items
[13:49]	:	LOLZ
[13:49]	:	on her main obcession rain
[13:49]	:	Full perm huds
[13:49]	:	Just from the point of a wiki user, I would like to see the wiki remain useful, versus being the source of wiki wars
[13:49]	:	no im not u r a griefer who has been after me
[13:50]	:	Hey!
[13:50]	:	Secret Christen is that you
[13:50]	:	Hey!
[13:50]	:	Hi santa
[13:50]	:	I'll take 'dont care" for 500, Alex
[13:50]	:	"who determains what goes and what stays"... I wrote the original page.
[13:50]	:	Hey!
[13:50]	:	she is a he
[13:50]	:	guys he raped me
[13:50]	:	omg
[13:50]	:	see, this is why I don't think the grid merger is gonna be a big deal. Maybe a couple dozen teens will come over, but the rest already have Main Grid accounts, and just won't bother.
[13:50]	:	Yellows, revealing someone's alt's name without their permission is a disclosure violation. Please stop disrupting my office hour or I will have to remove you.
[13:50]	:	he gives out note cards with full perm houses and huds
[13:51]	:	no i didnt
[13:51]	:	Qie - I agree. The ones coming in with the TG shift will be the law abiding ones anyway
[13:51]	:	he is ali virgo alt
[13:51]	:	no
[13:51]	:	ali virgo is banned for passing out full perm huds
[13:51]	:	he is his alt
[13:51]	:	Poof.
[13:51]	:	u framed him and now going after me
[13:51]	:	/me grins
[13:52]	:	"who are you calling a poof"... LOL
[13:52]	:	Jeremy ur paws a FAR too kind! sometimes u have to stamp ur hindpaws , quickly and FIRMLY! lol
[13:52]	 	has pinged you.
[13:52]	:	/me likes the quiet
[13:53]	:	Anyway, Stryker, my thought is to definitely make at lest some sort fof paper trail, I know that the resident in question used to harass the heck out of me 'til he got slapped down, and if he is causing this much trouble for our interests, then there is likely some succor to be had
[13:53]	:	it's nice, isn't it
[13:53]	:	Look... I don't mind him correcting me... or putting additional stuff in the pages I helpt to setup
[13:53]	:	Which is what a wiki is for
[13:54]	:	But from what I've seen, he's gone well beyond that
[13:54]	:	but what really go to me was his "rape" of the SLRR_history pages... he removed 50% of valid content there
[13:54]	:	just because he felt he could
[13:54]	:	*got to me
[13:54]	:	that greatly concerns me. no body of other opinion
[13:55]	:	should be of any ability to rip away the love that built sl in the first place. that's A Valuable asset!
[13:55]	:	imo
[13:55]	:	Well, and not just his reqorking of the history page, but the ALL CAPS battle he was having there and other SLrr pages
[13:55]	:	And I'm back. Sorry about that, had to file an AR.
[13:55]	:	But I did't do it, Jeremy... honest!
[13:55]	 	has pinged you.
[13:55]	:	wb
[13:55]	:	/me winks
[13:56]	:	The wiki can have external links, right? I mean, we could just put a section at the bottom of the SLRR page, "External Links", and point to the VRC's history page. That's the "why we can't have nice things" approach, though: prevents valid content from appearing on the wiki itself.
[13:56]	:	See if this was an isolated incident, it would be vastly different from what you're seeing with those pages. You have a bit of a history of abuse on those ones
[13:56]	:	Hey Jumpy
[13:56]	:	yeah torley was very clear about that Qie
[13:56]	:	hi
[13:56]	:	right
[13:57]	:	Hiya, Jumpman
[13:57]	:	sup
[13:57]	:	Jumpy, you're 3 minutes early to miss the whole office hour. ;)
[13:58]	:	lmao
[13:58]	:	You have been online for 1 hours.
[13:58]	:	And what an office hour it has been!
[13:58]	:	prob crash or get forced logged out lmao
[13:58]	:	anyway... time to go for 1 last action on the wiki (staying within the rules) if that failes ... i.e. if this continues I really am lost
[13:58]	:	Wiki drama, griefer drama, wiki griefer drama...
[13:58]	:	ur kiddin
[13:58]	:	well im waitin around for blondinanyhows
[13:58]	:	drama is a big word...
[13:58]	:	hehehe we call it drammy
[13:59]	:	At any rate, Stryker, it is an issue and deserves some clarification on
[13:59]	:	The drammy awards?
[13:59]	:	All we need now is clog dancing to call it perfect
[13:59]	:	naw we give out The Golden Turd for that one
[13:59]	:	I think ThinkGeek sells those.
[13:59]	:	naw we created it
[14:00]	:	Well, they sell everythign else...
[14:00]	:	http://www.thinkgeek.com/geektoys/japanfan/9069/
[14:00]	:	though callie cline was the only one gracious enough to accept
[14:00]	:	and we dont sell em u have to EARN em
[14:00]	:	floor show
[14:00]	:	I do think the "Drammy Awards" has a nice fit for SL though.
[14:01]	:	well can i win the first one lol
[14:01]	:	please, don't empower them more, they love the attention.
[14:01]	:	though categories would be nice
[14:01]	:	Ooh, it's been an hour already. Going to cut here for the transcript.
[14:01]	:	"let the record show... Jumpman is dusting the rug"
 
Generated with SLog Wikifier
Category: Documentation Office Hours