Mesh/Archive/2011-11-07

==Agenda==
# How did the fix for CTS-694 work? Did it change the basis for associating LOD meshes in multi-mesh uploads, which used to be based on the order of appearance of <geometry> tags in each LOD file? [Drongle MaMahon]
#Is it possible to have a hotfix 3.1 release which will include the fix for SH-2500 ? This way we (mesh builders) can have a stable viewer to rely upon for a while until the snowstorm team fixes the issues with the new GUI. Right now we have no reliable, officially released, stable viewer at all. [Angel Alphaville]
# Why did the "Keep border" feature disappear from the Mesh Import window ? Will it be reintroduced ? If yes, when ? [Gael Streeter]
# Why are the low and medium LOD levels not taken into account in the weights count ? Will it stay like that ? Is there a load gain to have the same mesh for several LODs ? What could be the drawbacks to use the same mesh for the high and medium LODs ? [Gael Streeter] 
# Are there any plans to disable non-mesh enabled viewers from logging into Second Life? There are reports that people have been ejected or even banned from some venues due to wearing mesh clothes. The reason being that the venue owner and many other guests cannot see mesh as they have been using non-mesh enabled viewer. This is very disturbing. People see different things depending on what viewer they are using. This does not enhance the common experience. My guess is that non-mesh enabled viewers will be used by many a long long time unless they are blocked. [Coby Foden]
#We know several fixes for Mesh and OpenGL are in progress with some completed. Where are we in the pipeline for getting those to the Beta and Main Viewers? Possible ETA's? Hoping for? Nalates Urriah 
# Which Viewe shuld I test and make tutorial, Mesh Project Viewer or Runitai's Viewer or Vir's Viewer or Snowstorm? [Yuzuru Jewell]
# Can SH-2110 be made public, so we can watch it? [Drongle]
==Meeting Notes==
==Attendees List==
*Angel (angel.alphaville)
*Ardy Lay (ardy.lay)
*Asha (ashasekayi.ra)
*Charlar Linden (charlar.linden)
*Drongle McMahon (drongle.mcmahon)
*Eleanora Newell (eleanora.newell)
*Ima Mechanique (ima.mechanique)
*Motor Loon (motor.loon)
*Nal (nalates.urriah)
*Rain Edring (rain.edring)
*davep (runitai.linden)
*Koli Contepomi (sahkolihaa.contepomi)
*Vincent Nacon (vincent.nacon)
*Vir Linden (vir.linden)
*Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar)
*Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)
==Transcript for Monday November 7, 2011==
[12:04]	Ardy Lay 	Like sitting on an unscripted prim..... where you click on it is important.
[12:04]	Charlar Linden 	hey everybody!
[12:04]	Motor Loon 	not "like"... they are unscripted °͜°
[12:05]	Eleanora Newell 	hey, charlie
[12:05]	Ardy Lay 	Are they prims?
[12:05]	Ardy Lay 	Look like meshes to me.
[12:05]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Heya Charlar
[12:06]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) 	hey charlar
[12:06]	Charlar Linden 	howdy - let's get this party started
[12:06]	Charlar Linden 	agenda: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group
[12:06]	Charlar Linden 	first item: How did the fix for CTS-694[1] work? Did it change the basis for associating LOD meshes in multi-mesh uploads, which used to be based on the order of appearance of <geometry> tags in each LOD file? [Drongle MaMahon]
[12:07]	davep (runitai.linden) 	looks like it got fixed by reporting an error to the log instead of asserting (crashing with an error message in the log)
[12:07]	davep (runitai.linden) 	there's a followup task that's marked as "in-progress" to address the underlying object ordering issue
[12:08]	davep (runitai.linden) 	(internal task)
[12:08]	Drongle McMahon 	OK. So the order is still deciding which mesh belongs to which? For now?
[12:08]	davep (runitai.linden) 	see https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SH-2109
[12:09]	davep (runitai.linden) 	I believe so, yes
[12:09]	Drongle McMahon 	Thanks. Pleae let us know when it changes.
[12:09]	Drongle McMahon 	if/when, that is
[12:11]	Drongle McMahon 	Maybe watching that jira will do?
[12:11]	Charlar Linden 	next?
[12:11]	Charlar Linden 	#2 Is it possible to have a hotfix 3.1 release which will include the fix for SH-2500 [2] ? This way we (mesh builders) can have a stable viewer to rely upon for a while until the snowstorm team fixes the issues with the new GUI. Right now we have no reliable, officially released, stable viewer at all. [Angel Alphaville]
[12:11]	Charlar Linden 	.
[12:11]	Charlar Linden 	No, we're not doing a hotfix
[12:11]	Vincent Nacon 	pfft... just wait for Phoenix
[12:11]	Vincent Nacon 	:)
[12:12]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	well, I had to ask
[12:12]	Charlar Linden 	Beta 3 is looking pretty stable now. I'd advise trying it again.
[12:12]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	that fix is taking so long to be incorporated
[12:12]	Vincent Nacon 	yeah but that UI is killing my buzz
[12:12]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	I doubt the one who chekcs on these things had even seen it
[12:12]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	and yes, the UI needs months of work
[12:13]	Vincent Nacon 	custom UI for Skin designers!
[12:13]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Where is beta 3?
[12:13]	Charlar Linden 	it's the current beta download Yuzuru
[12:13]	davep (runitai.linden) 	http://secondlife.com/support/downloads/
[12:13]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Oh thank you.
[12:14]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Not Mesh project viewer..
[12:14]	Charlar Linden 	no not mesh project viewer
[12:14]	Charlar Linden 	just general viewer
[12:14]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	so everyone uploads custom physics meshes without problem ? I have been wondering
[12:15]	Charlar Linden 	the mesh project viewer isn't going to be very useful going forward.
[12:15]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Where in the pipeline are the mesh and openGl fixes?
[12:15]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	I've had to add the material ids to my custom physics shapes in the main viewer
[12:15]	davep (runitai.linden) 	Nal: tack that onto the agenda, please
[12:15]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	sorry
[12:16]	Charlar Linden 	ok, i have to ask
[12:16]	Charlar Linden 	Ima, why do you have your hand raised?
[12:16]	Vincent Nacon 	tack that on the agenda, Char
[12:16]	Vincent Nacon 	:P
[12:16]	Charlar Linden 	ha
[12:16]	Charlar Linden 	i don't have to, I'm a Linden
[12:16]	Eleanora Newell 	heh
[12:17]	Charlar Linden 	next item
[12:17]	Charlar Linden 	#3 Why did the "Keep border" feature disappear from the Mesh Import window ? Will it be reintroduced ? If yes, when ? [Gael Streeter]
[12:17]	Ima Mechanique 	er, no ideea
[12:18]	davep (runitai.linden) 	you're talking about the decimator options, correct?
[12:19]	davep (runitai.linden) 	is Gael even here?
[12:19]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	I don't see her
[12:19]	davep (runitai.linden) 	did anybody actually use the decimator options in a useful way?
[12:19]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	I don't use them.
[12:20]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	I tried them on simple stuff and gave up.
[12:20]	Charlar Linden 	gave up why?
[12:20]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	I decided I could do better in Blender.
[12:20]	davep (runitai.linden) 	well, there you go -- they were removed because they weren't very useful and cluttered up the UI quite a bit -- if you want some power options on creating LoDs, it's better to use a 3D modelling program
[12:21]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Unless it is something extremely organic, the result is less than desireable.
[12:21]	Charlar Linden 	ok, next
[12:21]	Charlar Linden 	#4 Why are the low and medium LOD levels not taken into account in the weights count ? Will it stay like that ? Is there a load gain to have the same mesh for several LODs ? What could be the drawbacks to use the same mesh for the high and medium LODs ? [Gael Streeter]
[12:21]	davep (runitai.linden) 	ok, a few things could be going on here --
[12:22]	davep (runitai.linden) 	if the medium and high lods are the same model, there's really no benefit to having the medium lod at all
[12:22]	davep (runitai.linden) 	just choose "use lod above"
[12:22]	davep (runitai.linden) 	having the same model in both slots will just redundantly download the same data
[12:22]	davep (runitai.linden) 	"streaming cost" won't change because the equation still thinks it's the same amount of bytes per square meter
[12:23]	davep (runitai.linden) 	"render weight" won't change because it *is* the same number of triangles
[12:24]	davep (runitai.linden) 	another thing that might be going on is the size of the model might be so large that the medium and low lods are effectively never displayed
[12:24]	davep (runitai.linden) 	but, Gael isn't here -- so maybe we should just move on
[12:25]	Charlar Linden 	ok next
[12:25]	Charlar Linden 	#5 Are there any plans to disable non-mesh enabled viewers from logging into Second Life? There are reports that people have been ejected or even banned from some venues due to wearing mesh clothes. The reason being that the venue owner and many other guests cannot see mesh as they have been using non-mesh enabled viewer. This is very disturbing. People see different things depending on what viewer they are using. This does not enhance the common experience. My guess is that non-mesh enabled viewers will be used by many a long long time unless they are blocked. [Coby Foden]
[12:25]	Charlar Linden 	We are not going to block non-mesh enabled viewers.
[12:25]	Motor Loon 	"Can't fix stupid"
[12:26]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	I suspect this is a self correcting problem.
[12:26]	Ima Mechanique 	dunno Motor, boot up the backside works wonders
[12:26]	Vincent Nacon 	yup
[12:26]	Vincent Nacon 	but I still agree with him anyway, can't fix stupid
[12:26]	Motor Loon 	yeah if it's just one "stupid"... but 100.000 of them and you're gonna be busy
[12:26]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	you should see what goes on with multi-attachments too
[12:26]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) 	or just an ID10T iussue :p
[12:26]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	meshes is just one side of the issue
[12:26]	Ima Mechanique 	true, too many boots required
[12:27]	Charlar Linden 	in case anyone missed my earlier comment:
[12:27]	Charlar Linden 	We are not going to block non-mesh enabled viewers.
[12:28]	Charlar Linden 	we do think that most are moving to support, or already support, mesh.
[12:28]	Charlar Linden 	Time will solve this.
[12:28]	Motor Loon 	wish the Phoenix dev's would hurry the fuck up though
[12:28]	Motor Loon 	thats still a giant portion of the Second Life™ residents
[12:28]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	lol..... they wish LL would hurry with some fixes... Catch 22
[12:28]	Drongle McMahon 	~Time and lots of irresistable meshes.
[12:28]	Ima Mechanique 	I thought the latest phoenix has mesh support?
[12:29]	Motor Loon 	Firestorm did Ima... not phoenix yet
[12:29]	Charlar Linden 	Firestorm seems to work well...I've heard
[12:29]	Charlar Linden 	Ok, next
[12:29]	Charlar Linden 	#6 We know several fixes for Mesh and OpenGL are in progress with some completed. Where are we in the pipeline for getting those to the Beta and Main Viewers? Possible ETA's? Hoping for? Nalates Urriah
[12:29]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Next PH will have mesh render, prolly not upload
[12:29]	davep (runitai.linden) 	GL fixes are still in QA -- hoping for a merge down to viewer-development soon
[12:29]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	( and SH-2500 too don t forget that )
[12:30]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	( please )
[12:30]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Soon is like 2 or 3 weeks?
[12:31]	davep (runitai.linden) 	soon is "as soon as it passes QA" -- so 2 or 3 weeks is reasonable
[12:31]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Thx
[12:31]	davep (runitai.linden) 	barring any more unforeseen regressions
[12:31]	davep (runitai.linden) 	(found one this morning, going to set things back a couple days)
[12:32]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	shining branch has some weird issues with the uploaded window by the way
[12:32]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	uploader ...
[12:32]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	We appreiate the effort.
[12:32]	davep (runitai.linden) 	Angel: do tell
[12:32]	Eleanora Newell 	yes
[12:32]	Vir Linden 	SH-2500 is with several other fixes in mesh-development. Will be in either the next beta or the one after that, depending on how things go with QA.
[12:33]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	cheers Vir !
[12:33]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	well I was seeing windlight affecting the uploader preview, it was weird
[12:33]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	the model was glowing
[12:33]	davep (runitai.linden) 	kk, will check that out, thanks for the heads up
[12:33]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	I had weird environment settings on, I didn t keep it open much to check more
[12:35]	Charlar Linden 	ok next
[12:35]	Charlar Linden 	#7 Which Viewe shuld I test and make tutorial, Mesh Project Viewer or Runitai's Viewer or Vir's Viewer or Snowstorm? [Yuzuru Jewell]
[12:35]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Runitai and Vir's viewer?
[12:36]	Eleanora Newell 	:)
[12:36]	Vir Linden 	I have a viewer?
[12:36]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	sorry davep_shining-fixes
[12:36]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Asha laughs
[12:36]	davep (runitai.linden) 	I think they mean davep/shining-fixes vs VirLinden/viewer-development-shining-fixes
[12:36]	davep (runitai.linden) 	vs lindenlab/mesh-development
[12:36]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	yes
[12:36]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	or beta.
[12:36]	Charlar Linden 	yuzuru - you should be using the latest beta viewer. It has the new UI
[12:36]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	say that fast 3 time.... no in voice
[12:37]	Charlar Linden 	there, did it
[12:37]	Charlar Linden 	hahaha
[12:37]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	:P
[12:37]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	That issue has made making tutorials difficult.
[12:37]	Charlar Linden 	knowing which branch to use?
[12:37]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Well
[12:37]	Eleanora Newell 	was that a pun, charlie?
[12:38]	Charlar Linden 	lol
[12:38]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Thank you.
[12:38]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	I feel you... none of the tutorials look like the new UI
[12:38]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	I will use beta with new UI.
[12:38]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Because the uploader options and the bugs are different between the main viewer and development etc,
[12:38]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	maybe Charlar means the UI for the mesh uploader
[12:38]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	I that that s what he means, the uploader
[12:38]	Charlar Linden 	i meant the new UI that shows in the beta.
[12:39]	Charlar Linden 	The mesh uploader ui hasn't changed since the last mesh release, and i don't foresee any changes in the near term to it either.
[12:39]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	I general try to test in the main and the development because most use those.
[12:39]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	That's good to hear.
[12:39]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	*generally
[12:39]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	My big problem with the new FUI is the frame time it burns up. Looking for Widgets eats like 200+ms.
[12:39]	davep (runitai.linden) 	2 ms
[12:40]	davep (runitai.linden) 	yes, I was looking at that
[12:40]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	me too. I made tutorials with development viewer.
[12:40]	Charlar Linden 	That was our last agenda item.
[12:40]	davep (runitai.linden) 	put in an optimization in davep/shining-fixes that gets it down to 1ms
[12:40]	davep (runitai.linden) 	but still, !
[12:40]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Q: Any news on the mesh clothing sizing issue?
[12:41]	Charlar Linden 	not yet, but stay tuned, very soon i think we'll be able to say something.
[12:41]	Drongle McMahon 	I added an item
[12:41]	Charlar Linden 	darn you Drongle
[12:42]	Charlar Linden 	i don't see it yet
[12:42]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Ok, thank you
[12:42]	Drongle McMahon 	Whoops
[12:42]	Charlar Linden 	Charlar Linden waits patiently...
[12:43]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	In 3.2.2 (244260) I'm seeing 16 to 34 ms for Widgets... I'll do somoe more checking
[12:43]	Drongle McMahon 	Forgot to save it Doh!
[12:43]	Ardy Lay 	Nal, how frequently?
[12:43]	Drongle McMahon 	Was just asking for SH-210 to be made public
[12:44]	Drongle McMahon 	...SH-2110...
[12:44]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Right now that range seems pretty steady
[12:44]	Koli Contepomi (sahkolihaa.contepomi)	'Find Widgets'?
[12:44]	Charlar Linden 	Prep's not here Drongle, and he should probably respond to it.
[12:45]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Yes, I'm averaging 16ms with a spike every few seconds
[12:45]	Charlar Linden 	I'll send him a note about it.
[12:45]	Koli Contepomi (sahkolihaa.contepomi)	Average 1.75 on Runitai's build.
[12:45]	davep (runitai.linden) 	ah, I'm seeing 4 on my build right now -- looks like it depends on how much UI you have open
[12:45]	Charlar Linden 	ok, i think we're done - with 15 minutes to spare
[12:45]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	This is the development... I'll try Runitai's later
[12:46]	davep (runitai.linden) 	Nal: I'm pretty sure that's not new time lost with the new UI
[12:46]	Eleanora Newell 	thanks, everyne
[12:46]	davep (runitai.linden) 	the new viewer just puts that time under instrumentation
[12:46]	Ardy Lay 	Find Widgets is averaging less than 1ms for me with the odd bump at as much as 3ms on occasion.
[12:46]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Thanks for the meeting guys.
[12:46]	Charlar Linden 	ok, thanks everyone for coming.
[12:46]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Thx Dave. I'll play with it and see what I get.
[12:46]	davep (runitai.linden) 	(used to show up as time lost when rendering UI)
[12:46]	Angel (angel.alphaville) 	we thank you too
[12:46]	Koli Contepomi (sahkolihaa.contepomi)	Koli Contepomi tries to upload a 1024x1024 texture again.
[12:46]	Eleanora Newell 	see you next week
[12:47]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Thank you, Lindens.
[12:47]	Charlar Linden 	bye all
[12:47]	davep (runitai.linden) 	thanks guiys
[12:47]	Vir Linden 	Bye!
[12:47]	Eleanora Newell 	*waves*
[12:47]	Rain Edring 	bye
[12:47]	Drongle McMahon 	Bye
[12:47]	Ima Mechanique 	thanks all. and love the penguin runitai ;-)
[12:47]	Charlar Linden 	it's awesome, isn't it
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