Open Source Meeting/2008-07-31

< Open Source Meeting
== Agenda ==
# cmake status, lets iron out those last few issues Michelle2 Zenovka
== Transcript ==
* [14:00] Carjay McGinnis: this is crazy
* [14:00] Michelle2 Zenovka: i bet a related issue
* [14:01] Rob Linden: hi all
* [14:01] Carjay McGinnis: Hello Rob
* [14:01] Michelle2 Zenovka: Hi Rob
* [14:01] Michelle2 Zenovka: Hi Coco and Qaul
* [14:01] Rob Linden: transcript will be posted on wiki.secondlife.com, so keep that in mind as you speak
* [14:01] Qarl Linden: hey. :)
* [14:02] Coco Linden: hello
* [14:02] Soft Linden: It's always *so* tempting to say something horrible right after that disclaimer.
* [14:02] Michelle2 Zenovka: example?
* [14:02] Carjay McGinnis: yeah, I was going to say... but then I don't
* [14:02] Qarl Linden: heh.
* [14:02] Soft Linden: Go White Socks.
* [14:03] Rob Linden: Soft: a simple "hi mom" will do
* [14:04] Carjay McGinnis: indeed
* [14:04] Soft Linden: Anyone in Battery know if Bos is about? If cmake is the main agenda item - he could offer as much as anyone.
* [14:05] Rob Linden: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source_Meeting/Agenda
* [14:05] Michelle2 Zenovka: Well the state of things are, linking is driving us nuts on linux
* [14:06] Rob Linden: we're kicking around the idea of hiring a contractor to streamline external builds now that the foundation (CMake) is in place
* [14:06] Carjay McGinnis: well, my issues are related to me wanting to turn all the libs to shared ones
* [14:06] Rob Linden: we all know it's not realy one thing, it's a lot of little things
* [14:06] Carjay McGinnis: so it's more or less self-made trouble
* [14:07] Michelle2 Zenovka: well the windows tests are good aprat from one issue
* [14:07] Carjay McGinnis: what would that mean exactly?
* [14:07] Rob Linden: what would be really, really handy would be to have a contractor-ready spec up on wiki.secondlife.com
* [14:07] Qarl Linden: yeah - i have a question - does the license for FMOD require that it be manually downloaded?
* [14:08] Qarl Linden: if not - an auto download/install would be super nice.
* [14:08] Aimee Trescothick: was wondering about that too
* [14:08] Michelle2 Zenovka: It would save hastle, i can't belive the fmod guys would not allow you to distribute it for use with the viewer if you asked and did the legal bits anyway
* [14:09] Michelle2 Zenovka: you've already got the commercial licence to use it
* [14:09] Aimee Trescothick: I think it was specifically denied for actual distribution
* [14:09] Aimee Trescothick: but could possibly be downloaded direct automatically
* [14:09] Aimee Trescothick: depends on the exact terms
* [14:10] Carjay McGinnis: the terms seem not to be listed on their website
* [14:10] Rob Linden: we'd need to review that. Worst case scenario for that would be to print out helpful text if its missing (complete with URL)
* [14:10] Qarl Linden: heh.
* [14:11] Rob Linden: we shouldn't get bogged down in the specifics of FMOD here
* [14:11] Aimee Trescothick: think there's different terms for 3.75 to the latest to, so need to make sure the right ones are looked at
* [14:11] Qarl Linden: but that's the general idea, right Rob? automate the heck out of the process...
* [14:11] Carjay McGinnis: well, lawyer stuff
* [14:12] Michelle2 Zenovka: the windows cmake build is failing to copy fmod even from the linden library location, i think its the only issue i have left on a windows build
* [14:12] Carjay McGinnis: so it will take a while to process I guess
* [14:12] Rob Linden: ok...I put a stub article here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Rob_Linden/Build_Tool_Improvement_Spec_-_2008
* [14:13] Coco Linden: michelle, u didn't happen to rename the windows solution, did u?
* [14:13] Coco Linden: post cmake, u can't yet do that easily
* [14:13] Rob Linden: it's going to be a bit before I get the opportnity to fill this in, so if someone wants to beat me to the punch, please do
* [14:13] Michelle2 Zenovka: no, i'm basicly running a clean chain of events and even building from the command line
* [14:13] Coco Linden: kk
* [14:14] Michelle2 Zenovka: Coco, what i do is pretty much listed at http://pastebin.com/d35df8a28
* [14:14] Michelle2 Zenovka: ah rats thats my debug log
* [14:14] Michelle2 Zenovka: i mean https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Michelle2_Zenovka/cmake
* [14:15] Michelle2 Zenovka: but my first link is my linker issues, i can't resolve
* [14:15] Coco Linden: i usually have more than one solution open at a time and i used to rename the solutions so i could easily tell them apart, but that doesn't play nice with cmake yet
* [14:15] Michelle2 Zenovka: ah ok, i've been trying to keep as clean as possible for reporducable testing
* [14:15] Coco Linden: smart
* [14:17] Carjay McGinnis: cmake generates it from the project()-directive I think
* [14:18] Michelle2 Zenovka: SO are we out of cmake discussion?
* [14:19] Mm Alder: Well I have a build question, but not CMake specific.
* [14:19] Rob Linden: we might be. is there a meta issue for cmake issues in jira?
* [14:19] Michelle2 Zenovka: there was
* [14:19] Michelle2 Zenovka: i think that was just implement cmake so it might be closed
* [14:19] Michelle2 Zenovka: we might need a new cmake issues meta
* [14:20] Liana Linden: Sounds like it. Michelle2, will you make one?
* [14:20] Rob Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-2871 is the "implement CMake" isue
* [14:21] Michelle2 Zenovka: well it seems pretty implemented now
* [14:21] Rob Linden: Looks like there's one subtask that can be converted to a bug, and linked as a child issue of a new meta isue
* [14:22] Thickbrick Sleaford: shouts: 
* [14:22] Mm Alder: Is CMake in the 1.20 source download or still in the trunk?
* [14:22] Thickbrick Sleaford: oops, sorry
* [14:22] Soft Linden: Trunk.
* [14:22] Soft Linden: 1.21 will branch off that shortly, and will be the first RC to carry cmake.
* [14:23] Mm Alder: Not *quite* implemented then. :-)
* [14:23] Michelle2 Zenovka: That last remaining subtask is really related to the UI teams moving strings outside of the viewer anyway
* [14:23] Carjay McGinnis: Ah, cool.
* [14:24] Michelle2 Zenovka: there are other issues like the lsl compiler which has lots of static strings though
* [14:24] Rob Linden: Mm: It counts as "fix pending" at least
* [14:24] Mm Alder: Yep!
* [14:25] Mm Alder: Has Linden moved to VS2005 on MS Windows for 1.21?
* [14:25] Rob Linden: I'm not sure..
* [14:26] Soft Linden: That's the plan though.
* [14:26] Q Linden: Not yet, not everyone. I think we'll probably mandate it soonish
* [14:26] Soft Linden: There are some changes that will require VS2005 and which would be a hack to backport.
* [14:27] Soft Linden: Looking for the internal mail on what that was so I can say something more specific
* [14:28] Rob Linden: while Soft is doing that, any other topics folks want to cover?
* [14:28] Mm Alder: Did I miss the usual Linden status today?
* [14:29] Rob Linden: well...I can do a little of that. I was off at OSCON last week
* [14:29] Rob Linden: it was pretty interesting talking to a broad spectrum of folks
* [14:30] Rob Linden: I spoke a little bit with people working on several distros (Fedora, Ubuntu, openSUSE)
* [14:31] Rob Linden: we have two of these three covered with volunteer efforts. anyone played around with openSUSE's build system though?
* [14:31] Rob Linden: digs up link
* [14:32] Rob Linden: https://build.opensuse.org/
* [14:32] Soft Linden: Reason for dropping VS2003 was that we're switching over to the shared CRT libs, and if we build those in VS2005 they aren't backward compatible with VS2003. So all the prebuilt Windows libs we ship wouldn't work with VS2003 anymore.
* [14:33] Soft Linden: Windows CRT = Linux clib, basically.
* [14:33] Mm Alder: Thank you Mr. Gates :-)
* [14:33] Rob Linden: that makes sense
* [14:33] Michelle2 Zenovka: you can get in a right mess with shared/non shared threaded/non threaded libcrt
* [14:34] Michelle2 Zenovka: then lets add unicode
* [14:34] Mm Alder: Thank yo again Mr. Gates :-)
* [14:34] Carjay McGinnis: shared CRT is a good idea anyway, security fixes might never show up in the static libs
* [14:34] Soft Linden: Anyone who, at any point past the 2nd or 3rd set of libs, made a decision to double the number of builds instead of adding a configuration option needs to be shot.
* [14:35] Soft Linden: crtthreadeduncheckeddebugnopicklesextramayo.dll
* [14:35] Rob Linden: I SAID NO MAYO!
* [14:36] Aimee Trescothick: wants extra cheese
* [14:36] Q Linden: I got nowhere else to go.
* [14:36] Mm Alder: Sure you got the right version though?
* [14:36] Soft Linden: MSCRT~83.DLL for short.
* [14:36] Carjay McGinnis: yeah
* [14:36] Rob Linden: anyhoo...I'm guessing from the lack of response on the opensuse thing, the aswer is "no"
* [14:37] Michelle2 Zenovka: i thought iwas rpm based, but that may have been agees ago
* [14:37] Mm Alder: Changing topics: Any thoughts on opening up the voice chat as open source?
* [14:37] Carjay McGinnis: well, and then MS added manifests as the next refinement
* [14:37] Carjay McGinnis: I didn't play with SuSE for several years
* [14:37] Soft Linden: OpenSuSE is RPM based, but they have a build system that can spit out debs, rpms, etc in one go.
* [14:37] Carjay McGinnis: they had aweird system in the beginning which always seemed to work against you, but they changed it but the first contact drove me away
* [14:37] Carjay McGinnis: name was yast
* [14:37] Soft Linden: No idea if it does all the lib dependencies, etc for the other platforms too.
* [14:38] Michelle2 Zenovka: yea but we have a unix install target now with cmake so check install will do that
* [14:38] Rob Linden: it's supposed to make it easier to support a gaggle of distros, and Debian/Ubuntu were added after initial launch
* [14:39] Michelle2 Zenovka: but it will not produce a deb that would be accepted into debian its a quick hack, but then make checkinstall does the same thing to a source package
* [14:39] Soft Linden: Most (all?) distros want things set up to build and package on their own machines, though.
* [14:39] Soft Linden: Right.
* [14:39] Michelle2 Zenovka: plus i can always alien in packages for testing anyway
* [14:39] Q Linden: /fire alarm in Boston. Think it's a drill, but we gotta go.
* [14:39] Q Linden: we == me
* [14:39] Carjay McGinnis: oh dear
* [14:39] Rob Linden: doh!
* [14:39] Carjay McGinnis: see you Qarl
* [14:40] Carjay McGinnis: err Q
* [14:40] Rob Linden: well, I'm not aware of any non-Novell projects that were using it, but I thought I'd check
* [14:41] Soft Linden: If nothing else, it might be a fast build machine for anyone with ancient hardware.
* [14:42] Rob Linden: well, that's all I can think of for now.
* [14:42] Liana Linden: On the topic of updates... I am running the Hippo Awards program. No significant milestones to report this week on other open source projects I'm working on
* [14:43] Carjay McGinnis: sounds like summer slump
* [14:43] Michelle2 Zenovka: Oh debian lenny is freezing any chance you are going to move of sarge?
* [14:43] Liana Linden: Slump?
* [14:43] Rob Linden: struggles to remember the debian chronology
* [14:43] Michelle2 Zenovka: sarge,etch,lenny
* [14:44] Michelle2 Zenovka: sarge is about 4 years ago
* [14:44] Soft Linden: The current goal is etch.
* [14:44] Soft Linden: There's a team working on that right now.
* [14:44] Michelle2 Zenovka: hehe upgradeing to "old stable"
* [14:44] Carjay McGinnis: yeah, well, nothing much happening
* [14:45] Liana Linden: Carjay, speaking for myself, I can say there's tons happening. Just nothing finished that I can report on right now. :-)
* [14:45] Carjay McGinnis: hehe
* [14:45] Mm Alder: Is Linden still pretty much in bug squashing mode?
* [14:45] Carjay McGinnis: why did I expect that?
* [14:45] Rob Linden: Mm: yeah, in various forms
* [14:46] Rob Linden: with respect to viewer development, absolutely.
* [14:46] Soft Linden: Even with Debian, new releases usually carry a few big surprises for the first few months. We really can't afford any extra surprises on the servers, and the viewer build system would move in tandem witht he server build system.
* [14:46] Michelle2 Zenovka: debian carry security support back to old stable, sarge has only just stopped
* [14:46] Squirrel Wood: hmm... When I try to run SL at work I get past the login but the client hangs when it tries to connect to the sim... as it opens a https connection which, at work, would need to go through a proxy... any way to work around this ? any way to tell the client "http connections must go through proxy x port y" ?
* [14:46] Michelle2 Zenovka: etch will have security team for next 2 years still so thats good
* [14:47] Soft Linden: Squirrel - none that I know of, but there are Windows programs that can capture all traffic from a program and force it through a proxy.
* [14:47] Squirrel Wood: I know it works when I use the your freedom client.. but that is not a workable solution to me.
* [14:48] Mm Alder: Trying again: Any thoughts on opening up the voice chat as open source?
* [14:48] Aimee Trescothick: buy Vivox? ^^
* [14:48] Michelle2 Zenovka: hmm apart from the vivox codec is there anything else in slvoice.exe that is a problem?
* [14:49] Rob Linden: you should ping Vivox about that
* [14:49] Mm Alder: OK
* [14:49] Carjay McGinnis: about buying them? o.O
* [14:49] Rob Linden: :) about opening up
* [14:49] Michelle2 Zenovka: its basicly SIP with a prioprity codec
* [14:49] Carjay McGinnis: yeah, hm, think we had that discussion before
* [14:50] Aimee Trescothick: would love to be able to put in a proper limiter to hinder voice griefers, or people that don't know how to adjust their mic to avoid distortion :S
* [14:50] Soft Linden: We don't build slvoice ourselves. That's 100% vivox code, their call to open.
* [14:50] Michelle2 Zenovka: ah ok
* [14:50] Aimee Trescothick: have written one based on the levels report back to the SL client, but not really the right way to do it :(
* [14:51] Mm Alder: No, it should be on the sender's side.
* [14:51] Aimee Trescothick: yeah, it is on the senders side
* [14:51] Squirrel Wood: auto volume throttling ?
* [14:51] Aimee Trescothick: looks at your own voice level and throttles your level
* [14:51] Squirrel Wood: normalize to -3db ?
* [14:51] Mm Alder: Yeah, that makes sense.
* [14:52] Coco Linden: could be tricky to get right
* [14:52] Aimee Trescothick: responds pretty slow though because of the round trip etc.
* [14:53] Soft Linden: Right, automatic gain control is a non trivial problem. Perceived loudness varies across frequency.
* [14:53] Aimee Trescothick: yeah, you need to get the other people using it rather than yourself :)
* [14:53] Squirrel Wood: http://replaygain.hydrogenaudio.org/
* [14:53] Carjay McGinnis: there are weighing curves though
* [14:53] Coco Linden: if a loud noise on your end throttles u down, u might not be heard for a while, whereas if you're quiet for a while, the ambient sound near u will increase
* [14:53] Squirrel Wood: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replay_Gain
* [14:54] Aimee Trescothick: yeah, it works, its not too bad, but it's not production quality, should be working on the live audio stream
* [14:54] Carjay McGinnis: yeah, I usually turn off automatic limiter
* [14:54] Carjay McGinnis: most don't work right
* [14:54] Aimee Trescothick: yeah, I was just looking at doing a brickwall to stop people going into the red
* [14:55] Aimee Trescothick: but it's too slow to handle transients
* [14:55] Squirrel Wood: keep the last 1, 2 seconds of audio and voice streams at hand and use replaygain to determine the "adjustment" needed ?
* [14:55] Aimee Trescothick: and it won't work on other people as their levels are reported to SL pre-fade
* [14:56] Carjay McGinnis: hm, voice is already lagged
* [14:56] Mm Alder: Any idea when 1.21 RC will come out?
* [14:56] Carjay McGinnis: we need that libpredictthefuture.so
* [14:57] Soft Linden: It will branch shortly. Not sure when the first build will happen, but I'll get the source published in advance.
* [14:57] Rob Linden: Mm: I don't know exact timing. I think there's a couple merges that we're waiting up for
* [14:57] Aimee Trescothick: get a new Mac, they come with time machine ;)
* [14:57] Squirrel Wood: anyway... time for Benjamins office hour ^^
* [14:57] Carjay McGinnis: time machine? *g*
* [14:57] Soft Linden: I've been running release/ as my main viewer for the last couple weeks and haven't run into any serious problems yet, aside from the UI scaling affecting HUD click positions.
* [14:57] Carjay McGinnis: I would but never liked the price tag too much
* [14:57] Soft Linden: So hopefully it won't be long before the first build.
* [14:57] Aimee Trescothick: (lol, apple's backup system)
* [14:58] Liana Linden: Thanks, all.
* [14:58] Carjay McGinnis: ah, lol
* [14:58] Rob Linden: thanks everyone!
* [14:58] Carjay McGinnis: windfall
* [14:58] Soft Linden: The worst part about time travel will be all those colliding MAC addresses.
* [14:58] Mm Alder: Thanks to y'all too!
* [14:58] Aimee Trescothick: lol
* [14:58] Carjay McGinnis: yeah, thanks
* [14:58] Soft Linden: "Oh great. Lost my dhcp lease. I must be in the office again."
* [14:59] Carjay McGinnis: the cmake-archive I got yesterday had a future date!
* [14:59] Carjay McGinnis: about 2 or 3 hours
* [14:59] Carjay McGinnis: now I know why they are so fast
* [15:00] Aimee Trescothick: bye :)
* [15:00] Office: Going: to office
* [15:00] Thickbrick Sleaford: cya everybody
* [15:00] Carjay McGinnis: bye Aimee :)