Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2011.07.29

Simulator_User_Group
Prev 2011.07.26	Next 2011.08.02
== List of Speakers ==
Acheron Gloom 	Andrew Linden 	Arawn Spitteler
Ardy Lay 	Fancy Greeter 	Flip Idlemind
GothGirl Demonia	Griefer Evermore	Helena Lycia
Jane1 Bookmite 	Kaluura Boa 	Kelly Linden
Liisa Runo 	Melvin Starbrook	Pauline Darkfury
Rex Cronon 	Simon Linden 	
== Transcript ==
[16:02] Acheron Gloom: Hey Andrew.
[16:03] Simon Linden: lol, maybe you should be the user group DJ
[16:03] Helena Lycia: Hiya Andrew
[16:03] Andrew Linden: Hello
[16:03] Melvin Starbrook: hi all
[16:03] Jane1 Bookmite: haha
[16:04] Andrew Linden: I'm doing some code merges on the side... might be distracted this hour.
[16:04] Andrew Linden: This week flew by and I'm having trouble remembering it.
[16:05] Andrew Linden: I've been working on mesh, trying to make sure objects are correctly counted on parcels.
[16:06] Andrew Linden: Not very exciting, unless you're the one doing the coding ;-)
[16:06] Helena Lycia: Can you make them undercount please? *grins*
[16:06] Helena Lycia: Especially curved meshes
[16:06] Kelly Linden: I dunno andrew, I think it is really "exciting" for everyone else whenever there is a bug there.....
[16:06] Kelly Linden: ;)
[16:07] Helena Lycia: It was very exciting when my sim counted 5000 fewer prims than there should have been - exciting = panic as I checked all my builddings to see what was missing
[16:07] Pauline Darkfury: Yes, as a landlady, anything involving prim count problems could very easily become "exciting" ;)
[16:08] Andrew Linden: oh right. Yeah... I think I introduced a few bugs this week that we found in testing.
[16:09] Helena Lycia: Just please don't overcount - the last thing I want is half my buildings getting returned because the sim thinks there's too much stuff there
[16:09] Rex Cronon: greetings *
[16:09] Helena Lycia: Hiya Rex
[16:09] Rex Cronon: hi helena
[16:10] Andrew Linden: ok, I'll try to watch for overcounting bugs
[16:10] Andrew Linden: you know... that might be all the news I've got
[16:10] Andrew Linden: Simon, any news?
[16:11] Simon Linden: Not really ...
[16:11] Simon Linden: I've been working on a nagging system problem we've had for a long time
[16:11] Simon Linden: It _seems_ to be worse with the Mesh code, but our latest theory is that was just a coincidence
[16:12] Helena Lycia: What's the problem?
[16:12] Andrew Linden: I've got one item for the agenda... a feature daydream I was having yesterday on the way to work...
[16:12] Simon Linden: If we can sort this out, it will help with overall system stability
[16:12] Andrew Linden: I was wondering how hard it would be to make "private rooms"
[16:13] Andrew Linden: which would be just a very small simulator, not on a spatial grid at all, but merely isolated locations
[16:13] Rex Cronon: don't u already have parcels that restrict hearing and sight?
[16:13] Helena Lycia: Hmmm... Interesting.... would this be the sort of thing that you could use to make a tardix?
[16:13] Helena Lycia: tardis
[16:14] Andrew Linden: yeah, the private parcels work is out now?
[16:14] Andrew Linden: does that need a second pass Simon?
[16:15] Simon Linden: It needs some fixes for cross-region situations
[16:15] Simon Linden: For example, we're on a private parcel now
[16:15] Kaluura Boa: It looks like some ppl resist to that setting.
[16:15] Simon Linden: but if you go south onto Longfellow, we could see that person, but they can't see us
[16:15] Fancy Greeter: Mercille Linden has arrived!
[16:15] Griefer Evermore: private rooms would be ideal for those who otherwise put up banlines for everyone
[16:15] Rex Cronon: u could choose to make all objects on parcel invisible also
[16:15] Simon Linden: If you go north onto another parcel, neither woudl be albe to see each other
[16:16] Simon Linden: True Rex, there are a bunch of ways that could be extended if we wanted to
[16:16] Flip Idlemind: This reminds me of SVC-4728
[16:16] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4728
[#SVC-4728] Instanced Parcels - Replacedment for "Ban Line" handling of parcel access
[16:16] Andrew Linden: well... one problem with private parcels that a private room would bypass (maybe) is the shared simulator lag problem
[16:16] Andrew Linden: if you have a private parcel you're still susceptible to a laggy party outside
[16:17] Andrew Linden: however, maybe that wouldn't be such a big selling point... dunno
[16:17] Helena Lycia: I had an idea that could might work for private rooms or as a way to simulate proper caves (or tardis-like builds)
[16:17] Rex Cronon: u take one of those opensims, and make it one parcel.
[16:19] Rex Cronon: and reduce nr of scripts on it, max nr of prims, and max nr of ave. u can also run like 32 or more per server:)
[16:19] Andrew Linden: what exactly is a "tardis-like build"? You mean a room that is bigger on the inside than it is on the outside?
[16:19] Helena Lycia: Yes
[16:20] Rex Cronon: like in startrek one of those ships that is multidimensional. we see it small, but is actually huge:)
[16:20] Andrew Linden: That is an intersting idea.... leverage OpenSim for private rooms.
[16:21] Andrew Linden: or a tardis build would be sorta like those top-down maps in Super Mario, where you can see your various levels on a map.
[16:21] Arawn Spitteler: The door could simply tp to a larger build
[16:21] Andrew Linden: You step out of the level and can navigate to a new one.
[16:21] Pauline Darkfury: For doors TPing you to a larger build, see Novatech & Hands of Omega TARDISes ;)
[16:22] Simon Linden: Are you thinking of a parcel that would then be larger once you're on it? Something like that?
[16:22] Helena Lycia: I was thinking that you could introduce layers within a sim, so there would be layer 0 which would be the normal sim and then each parcel would have it's on private layer that was like a void - completely empty, no ground. So parcel 1 would have layer 1, parcel 2 would have layer 2 and so on. Each layer wouldn't be completely invisible to allthe other layers), so no rendering lag from one layer to the next. And you have portal prims than if you walk through themj transport an avatar from layer 0 to the private parcel layer and back
[16:23] Griefer Evermore: That would mean no more monstrous privacy screens?
[16:24] Helena Lycia: You could then do things like make a cave mouth prim against normal terrain and then treat the private layer as the inside of the cave
[16:24] Andrew Linden: I was sorta pondering whether everybody should have their own one private room
[16:24] Andrew Linden: in which they could invite some limited size crowd
[16:24] Andrew Linden: and otherwise build/rez normal SL objects inside
[16:24] Kaluura Boa: That would look a lot like IMVU...
[16:24] Pauline Darkfury: that's called a homestead, Andrew, you just need to get the pricing more reasonable for it ;)
[16:25] Kaluura Boa: ...And to allow anybody to buy one!
[16:25] Andrew Linden: I was wondering how hard it would be to implement, and also how useful they would be.
[16:25] Andrew Linden: (Not that I have time to actually work on that)
[16:25] Helena Lycia: Also possibly, because each parcel would have it's own layer, the accessible area could be 256x256x4096, regardless of the size of the parcel. But ocf course the total number of prims in the parcel and the private layer would be limited to those that could normally be put on the parcel
[16:25] Simon Linden: One of my upcoming projects should help a little bit with homestead performance
[16:25] Pauline Darkfury: I do like the overall concept of somehow being able to slice a full sim into a number of more isolated 65536 slices tho
[16:26] Arawn Spitteler wonders if TPAgent would help in Tardis Design
[16:26] Acheron Gloom: Oh, whats that Simon?
[16:26] Pauline Darkfury: Particularly if they are properly treated as individual parcels, for things like the audio stream, access lists, prim counting, etc
[16:26] Helena Lycia: I think it would be useful for people who want to make things like tardises, or people who want to make caves in terrain but can't stand the look of faked prim ground
[16:26] Pauline Darkfury: Yes, llTPAgent would be a fantastic win for TARDIS builders
[16:26] Griefer Evermore: Could moreavatars fit on a simulator if private parcels are widely used?
[16:27] Arawn Spitteler: Shouldn't MESH do something for Caves?
[16:27] Helena Lycia: Have you tried creating meshes with curved surfaces?
[16:28] Andrew Linden: Arawn, yes it should be possible to make mesh caves.
[16:28] Griefer Evermore: Concave mesh has to be well planned
[16:28] Helena Lycia: The effective prim count goes through the roof
[16:28] Andrew Linden: We've pondered whether it would be possible to replace the current terrain with a mesh-terrain feature.
[16:28] Andrew Linden: We're not working on it yet, but we've kicked the idea around.
[16:28] Pauline Darkfury: something more advanced than the current terrain would be very welcome in coming years
[16:29] Rex Cronon: isn't it already a mesh? u can make holes, and raise the ground already
[16:29] Andrew Linden: As it turns out... there would be room for improvements, but also danger... it might be possible to make a very bad (expensive, laggy) terrain with mesh.
[16:29] Liisa Runo: no need to replace the current terrain with mesh, can just put mesh on top of the current one
[16:29] Andrew Linden: Rex, no the current terrain is a "heightfield"
[16:29] Andrew Linden: so it is a 2D "function"
[16:29] Andrew Linden: and cannot be concave in the vertical axis
[16:29] Rex Cronon: even if u were to replace the terrain with a scultpie and would be better. ok. it might
[16:30] Fancy Greeter: Roxie Linden has arrived!
[16:30] Griefer Evermore: I'm working with a couple of friends in Numantia Maris on mesh caves (have to wait for the mesh rollout)
[16:30] Arawn Spitteler: A MAjor use of Mesh will be caves, and those'll be megamesh
[16:30] Andrew Linden: Oh yeah, I remember what I wanted to ask you guys about...
[16:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[16:31] Pauline Darkfury: Tbh, one of the biggest limits with today's terrain is the very limited texture control, and particularly the very wooly way the hi/low numbers currently work. It's quite an art to actually get the textures to reliably blend at the points where you actually want to see changes
[16:31] Andrew Linden: at the moment, if you ban someone from a parcel, they may still be able build on it, or move/drop objects into it
[16:32] Helena Lycia: I think people will actually use sculpts for the visible caves and simple invisible meshes for the physics - otherwise the effective prim count will be too high
[16:32] Andrew Linden: I have a "fix" for that which would prevent banned avatars (or objects owned by banned accounts) from building/moving objects on a parcel
[16:32] Andrew Linden: but I was wondering... is anyone here, or does anyone here know of someone who is, using that as a *feature*?
[16:33] Rex Cronon: if u implement it, u might make a lot of land owners happier
[16:33] Melvin Starbrook: thats a nice fix :)
[16:33] Pauline Darkfury: I don't see that as a major issue today, but do see the fix as a relative win
[16:33] Andrew Linden: That is, banning people and yet expecting them to be able to build on a parcel?
[16:33] Arawn Spitteler: I've heard of a sim owner, who banned a builder to keep the build.
[16:33] Pauline Darkfury: It needs to be only for the actual ban list, and not based on not-allowed (i.e. not public, whitelist only)
[16:33] Andrew Linden: Well... the build of a banned resident would survive...
[16:33] Helena Lycia: I've seen a place where someone was banned but their objects remained and were used by the sim owners
[16:34] Liisa Runo: depends, i use the ablility to ignore parcel settings as a feature, but i dont care if it stop working when im actually banned, go for it
[16:34] Pauline Darkfury: There are legit cases where people flip public on and off, would be a disaster for that to trigger a return or break objects
[16:34] Andrew Linden: however, as it currently works even the parcel owner can't move the banned owner's objects
[16:34] Andrew Linden: (I think)
[16:34] Arawn Spitteler: Should be able to return
[16:34] Rex Cronon: owners can return objects
[16:34] Andrew Linden: they can remove them, but not move objects owned by banned accounts into their parcel
[16:34] Pauline Darkfury: parcel owner can't edit them, but can return, as long as the root prim is actually on the parcel
[16:34] Helena Lycia: But not move them unless granted rights by the owner
[16:34] Rex Cronon: land owners*
[16:35] Andrew Linden: hrm... yeah, I guess i won't worry about that. I was testing with some objects that were 'movable by everybody'
[16:35] Pauline Darkfury: (or encroachment-return, when enabled)
[16:35] Andrew Linden: but that was just for ease of testing
[16:35] Andrew Linden: it isn't normal settings on griefer objects
[16:36] Andrew Linden: ok, that fix for banned resi objects should be included in a later update of the mesh project
[16:37] Pauline Darkfury: I think that it's probably safer to not trigger any type of return for that feature, just prevent new objects being added to the parcel
[16:37] Andrew Linden: yeah, it doesn't return the objects
[16:37] Arawn Spitteler: Option of "Would you like to return all the idiot's objects?" might belong viewer side
[16:37] Andrew Linden: but prevents new ones from being added
[16:37] Pauline Darkfury: yeah, the viewer could automate a ban+return function, if desired
[16:37] Liisa Runo: SCR-19
[16:37] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SCR-19
[#SCR-19] Script function to return objects
[16:38] Pauline Darkfury: And yes, llReturnObjects is much needed in a similar way
[16:38] Rex Cronon: u give ave key to that?
[16:39] Pauline Darkfury: The specifics are still to be worked out for that, Rex
[16:39] Pauline Darkfury: I personally think it needs to work based on object key, object-owner key, and also have flags for group, other, temp, etc
[16:39] Rex Cronon: the thing is. sometimes u might want to return one one specific object that u know the key of
[16:39] Rex Cronon: only one*
[16:40] Arawn Spitteler: Parcel Detection could also be useful
[16:40] Pauline Darkfury: Yes, single objects are one need. All objects owned by a single AV is another much desired case, for things like rentals
[16:41] Helena Lycia: Such a function would have to work only after a run time permissions check otherwise the scope for malicious code in sold/given-away objects would be huge
[16:41] Liisa Runo: it would work just like banning LSL works, the task owner must have return rights
[16:42] Pauline Darkfury: yeah, there's details like that, but that really shouldn't be a major obstacle
[16:42] Kelly Linden: Unfortunately issues with system load during object return means that any non-coalescing version (like by id) would need to be throttled possible to the point of not being useful.
[16:43] Pauline Darkfury: That's not a big deal, if you want to throttle the single object case, tbh
[16:43] Liisa Runo: what is the throttle now for clients?
[16:43] Pauline Darkfury: Or, you could add objects to a queue when done by single UUID, flush the queue every 60s, doing the coalescing at that point
[16:44] Acheron Gloom: Don't like the last idea.
[16:44] Rex Cronon: the problem with this function is that u can't find owner of an object if the owner is not in the same sim, so u can't return all objects belonging to same owner:(
[16:44] Liisa Runo: griefer can rez 15K prims in 3 seconds, the return function better not be any slower
[16:45] Pauline Darkfury: You can always get the object owner, regardless of them being in-sim or not
[16:45] Kelly Linden: If it is 'by owner' then it is a coalescing version, and you could get away with a single call.
[16:45] Simon Linden: we sure can't return 15k prims in 3 seconds, the system would go up in smoke
[16:45] Rex Cronon: no u can't get the owner key for an object
[16:45] Rex Cronon: no.
[16:45] Pauline Darkfury: You just can't do llKey2Name unless they are in-sim, but the key is always present and can be llRequested via the dataserver
[16:46] Flip Idlemind: OBJECT_OWNER in llGetObjectDetails
[16:46] Rex Cronon: doesn't work flip
[16:46] Pauline Darkfury: Hmmmm, I do think you're wrong there, Rex, and can always see the owner key, but I'd need to check and test to be 100%
[16:46] Andrew Linden: And then there is the problem of flooding the inventory databases with incomming objects... we encountered that failure mode years ago.
[16:46] Liisa Runo: alright, if we cant get proper LSL to fight the grief, how about putting g-team back to 24/7 system and hiring 300 more of them?
[16:46] Kelly Linden: Basically there is a certain amount of overhead for every return, whether you are returning 1 item or up to max_coalesced_size objects. 15k individual returns over 3s would be as bad or worse on the system than the rez that got them there.
[16:47] Andrew Linden: Griefers would flood the world, then their thousands of objects would be returned to their inventories for a second punch... this time to the databases.
[16:47] Pauline Darkfury: Well, what's heavier for the server - doing this by LSL, or doing it with an admin bot?
[16:47] Rex Cronon: ok. i check the onwer of bullets. but they die, and i have only their key and can't get the owner
[16:47] GothGirl Demonia: Well the only problem I have with griefers is public areas I don't own, otherwise Admin> God Tools, Owner Name, Delete all of target objects on sim (; Also if prices were lower on Land compared to other grids less problems for LL if more people owned that, or instanced sims for private use at a motnhly fee starting at $15 (;
[16:47] Arawn Spitteler wonders where to find 300 reasonably intelligent intelligence people
[16:47] Pauline Darkfury: The admin bot is certainly heavier for us, and I'd suspect it has to be heavier for the servers as well
[16:48] Pauline Darkfury: Ahh, right, Rex. Yes, if you want the owner key, you must request it before the object dies
[16:48] Pauline Darkfury: That's quite different, however, to not being able to get the owner key unless the owner is in-sim
[16:48] Rex Cronon: try doing that with a bullet:)
[16:49] Arawn Spitteler: If you can get the bullet key, it should still be available to the asset servers
[16:49] Acheron Gloom: Why do you need to know the owner of a bullet unless it hits you? And then if it hits you you'll get their key in the llDetected* functions
[16:49] Griefer Evermore: Arawn, that's a paradox, surely?
[16:50] Rex Cronon: i can get bullets key. what i can't get is owners key
[16:50] Acheron Gloom: llDetectedOwner
[16:50] Rex Cronon: it returns null
[16:50] Andrew Linden: bullets could grief without hitting right?
[16:51] Liisa Runo: anyway, even with reasonable throttle the function will be usefull, hitting the return objects button in client for 8 hours is fucking boring, i want to do script to spam the button while g-team is sleeping
[16:51] Pauline Darkfury: Talking of return/delete throttles, is it "expected behaviour" for deleting or returning 14 objects with around 7000 scripts between them to just silently fail?
[16:51] Kelly Linden: llDetectedOwner should work whether theowner is near or not
[16:51] Rex Cronon: if they go bla, bla, bla...
[16:52] Pauline Darkfury: Yeah, basically give us the function with whatever throttle is needed. The most useful cases for us don't need a high rate, just to be able to do it without the massive overhead of a bot
[16:52] Andrew Linden: That failure to return sounds like a bug Pauline.
[16:52] Flip Idlemind: So, back to privacy...the "See Avatars" feature doesn't quite seem to be working as intended. When I leave this parcel, I can still see a couple of the people on it, as can (kinda) be seen in this before and after
[16:52] Pauline Darkfury: Ok, I'll test it again and check it repros, will file a Jira if it does
[16:53] Griefer Evermore: does it work on avatar imposters?
[16:53] Acheron Gloom: Wouldn't returning tons of coalesced prims mean they wouldn't be able to rez them again? Or am I wrong?
[16:53] Acheron Gloom: I maybe thinking of something else.
[16:53] Flip Idlemind: Well I have impostors disabled
[16:53] Arawn Spitteler: Thousands, rather than tons
[16:53] Kaluura Boa: I don't use imposters and I could still see 1 av from the neighboring parcel...
[16:53] Pauline Darkfury: yes, if the coalesced object is too big (prims or scripts), it can only be rezzed on Unpackistan
[16:54] Acheron Gloom: Ah.
[16:54] Simon Linden: If they're all coalesced together, yes, Acheron
[16:54] Helena Lycia: I think the private room idea is a nicer solution than simply hiding avatars between parcels - although both probably have their advantages
[16:54] Andrew Linden: There is a known bug where SL may create large enough coalesced objects that the items cannot be rezzed in-world again (too big).
[16:54] Pauline Darkfury: Taking of Unpackistan, would LL be willing to configure a private sandbox for a 200+ region estate with those settings, or is the risk too high?
[16:55] Helena Lycia: Underwater rooms too, maybe such private spaces wouldn't render water and therefore allow for submerged builds that don't obscure vision
[16:55] Andrew Linden: Pauline, you mean configure a private estate sandbox to be tolerant like Unpakistan? Doesn't sound too risky.
[16:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[16:56] Andrew Linden: However, we don'
[16:56] Kelly Linden: I think as it stands we can't do it on a per-region basis, only a per-host basis which would make it difficult.
[16:56] Andrew Linden: there isn't a typical support/concierge service offered for that
[16:56] Simon Linden: I think the problem with that configuraiont is we don't have an easy way to make an estate over-ride .. we should probably add that
[16:56] Andrew Linden: which would just make it difficult to get done through normal channels
[16:57] Pauline Darkfury: Yes, that's what I mean. I'm EM for a full sim sandbox owned by a large estate, one of the purposes is for estate landowners to be able to rez large returns, etc, when needed
[16:57] Pauline Darkfury: If it was doable, it would save the need for LL support to provide access to Unpackistan for them
[16:57] Andrew Linden: oh... is that a per-host setting kelly?
[16:57] Andrew Linden: We could make it per-region. We've got expanded per-region settings capabilities in Mesh.
[16:58] Simon Linden: That sounds like the way to go
[16:58] Pauline Darkfury: Ahh, if it's per-host, not a problem
[16:58] Rex Cronon: i g2g. bye *
[16:58] Kelly Linden: I'm pretty sure it a per-host right now. I think unpackistan is stuck on a specific host to accomidate it. I'm not 100% sure on that though.
[16:58] Pauline Darkfury: But yeah, if you can make it exposed to EMs in some way on a per-region basis, it could be very nice for the big estates that can afford a sandbox region
[16:58] Simon Linden: yes, it's a specific host, and I think they have to manually fix the setting after a rollout
[16:58] Flip Idlemind: If it helps, it seems that all the people who I've seen not disappear when I leave this parcel have been sitting on something
[16:59] Flip Idlemind: Buuuut, not everyone who's sitting on something doesn't disappear
[16:59] Arawn Spitteler: Unpakistan is one sim of eight possible?
[16:59] Andrew Linden can fix that unpakistan setting problem.
[16:59] Andrew Linden makes a note
[17:00] Kelly Linden: oh, I saw a viewer patch go by to get rid of the double names on /me. Looking forward to that.
[17:00] Andrew Linden: However... when I really think about it... I should spend my energies fixing the fundamental problem that requires unpakistan.
[17:00] Andrew Linden: Need more time in the week!
[17:00] Pauline Darkfury: Well, yeah, if you can eliminate the possibility of new too-large coalesced objects, that would be even better :)
[17:00] Kelly Linden: Have a good weekend all.
[17:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[17:01] Pauline Darkfury: Thanks, Kelly, have a good one :)
[17:01] Simon Linden: Thanks everyone for coming
[17:01] Liisa Runo: thanks everybody
[17:01] Melvin Starbrook: thank you
[17:01] Helena Lycia: Take care everyone
[17:01] Pauline Darkfury: Thanks Andrew, Simon, Mercille, you have a good one too :)
[17:01] Helena Lycia: Byeee
[17:01] Griefer Evermore: Thank You all
[17:01] Kaluura Boa: Good night, everybody...
[17:01] GothGirl Demonia: nite (;
[17:02] Flip Idlemind: GothGirl was one of the people who was still visible when I left the parcel
[17:02] Flip Idlemind: Now that she stood up, she disappears correctly
[17:02] Ardy Lay: Try again not that she is standing?
[17:02] Ardy Lay: -not +now
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