Beta Server Office Hours/Minutes/2010-06-03

Category:Beta Server Office Hours - Minutes
This meeting was held on June 03rd, 2010
= Agenda =
* Discuss resolution of previous open items.
* Updates
** Oskar is on a plane to Singapore.
*** Milo and Monty are in charge. Be nice to them.
* Releases
* Any other business
** SVC-5880
** what you want to talk about goes here.
= Resolved Items =
= Meeting Minutes =
= Transcript =
Transcript of Oskar Linden's Beta Server Office Hour for June 03rd, 2010:
* [15:02] Milo Linden: hey everyone
* [15:02] Yuu Nakamichi: Hi Milo, Monty, Maestro
* [15:02] Psi Merlin: Yes, I have Snark over here
* [15:02] Lares Carter: heya
* [15:02] Maestro Linden: hi guys
* [15:03] Latif Khalifa: heya
* [15:03] Moundsa Mayo: Hi, too!
* [15:03] Yuu Nakamichi: I think I found a bug with the current production server
* [15:03] Monty Linden: hello, peoples
* [15:03] Yuu Nakamichi: regarding autoreturn
* [15:03] Yuu Nakamichi: If you create a role and switch on the 'return non-group objects' ability (only that one)
* [15:03] Opensource Obscure: hello everybody !
* [15:03] Latif Khalifa: did GetTextur cap got disabled on purpose, problems with it?
* [15:03] Psi Merlin: Hi Lindens - three at once, just like buses
* [15:03] Opensource Obscure: simon linden is coming as well
* [15:03] Monty Linden: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Beta_Server_Office_Hours
* [15:03] Yuu Nakamichi: then people with only that role can change the autoreturn time on group-owned land
* [15:04] Yuu Nakamichi: which they shouldnt be able to do
* [15:04] Techwolf Lupindo: This is a good example of prim litter. :-)
* [15:04] Yuu Nakamichi: only happens on group-owned parcels
* [15:04] Yuu Nakamichi: but it's out there
* [15:04] Yuu Nakamichi: on main
* [15:04] Yuu Nakamichi: right now
* [15:05] Milo Linden: yes latif gettexture is currently disabled whilst the viewer people work on stability fixes for it
* [15:05] Psi Merlin: I can asyly to setup a test here - snark is group owned.
* [15:05] Maestro Linden: Latif: we disabled GetTexture because the current release viewer (2.0.1) doesn't play well with it. I figure we'll enable it.. what milo said =P
* [15:05] Psi Merlin: Hi Simon
* [15:05] Simon Linden: Hello
* [15:05] Yuu Nakamichi: cool - let's test it Psi
* [15:05] Yuu Nakamichi: I tested on main
* [15:05] Yuu Nakamichi: Hi Simon
* [15:06] Monty Linden: Yuu, have you jira'd that?
* [15:06] Kitto Flora: Hello all
* [15:06] Yuu Nakamichi: not yet Monty
* [15:06] Yuu Nakamichi: I want to confirm again
* [15:06] Monty Linden: Latif: what milo said.
* [15:06] Yuu Nakamichi: I think I've seen it on 1..38.2
* [15:06] Yuu Nakamichi: but it seemed to go away with 1.38.4
* [15:06] Yuu Nakamichi: and back with 1.38.6
* [15:06] Kitto Flora: Anyone seen the rotation bug sith Vehicles - they move with nose in the air?
* [15:07] Monty Linden: We do have a fix in for SVC-5880
* [15:07] Issue Helper: [#SVC-5880] Vehicles "Jumping" when crossing prims http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/svc-5880
* [15:07] Drew Dwi: \o/
* [15:07] Lares Carter: yay =)
* [15:07] Monty Linden: yeah, agreed, nasty
* [15:08] Kitto Flora: It appears to be fixed in some region and not in other. On save Server version
* [15:08] Kitto Flora: same server version
* [15:08] Monty Linden: And those *ancient* problems having to do with seams are
* [15:08] Monty Linden: going to get looked at.
* [15:08] Monty Linden: But the vehicle physics could probably use some aggressive pushing.
* [15:08] Yuu Nakamichi: sorry Psi, can you try again?
* [15:08] Monty Linden: Break it!
* [15:08] Kitto Flora: 5880 is present in Jaxx Island - very nasty. But its not in one of the Oatmeal sims
* [15:09] Yuu Nakamichi: I had to leave a couple of groups first
* [15:09] Drew Dwi: are those fixes live now?
* [15:09] Moundsa Mayo: ONly in vehicle system objects?
* [15:09] Monty Linden: They should have been pushed to *most* of aditi though I haven't checked how
* [15:09] Monty Linden: cleanly we've pushed.
* [15:10] Latif Khalifa: Maestro, http textures are disabled in viewer 2.0.1 by default so tht should't be a big issue :)
* [15:10] Kitto Flora: Monty, has the fix that Falcon was working on been pushed to all regions?
* [15:10] Milo Linden: not yet i dont think
* [15:10] Milo Linden: if not will get a reroll later today.tomorrow am
* [15:11] Maestro Linden: Latif: yeah, that's true...
* [15:11] Drew Dwi: ack holy guesture flood
* [15:11] Moundsa Mayo: is that prim edge fix going to apply to ALL physical objects, or just ones using the vehicle system?
* [15:11] Lares Carter: whats up with SVC-5411? is that going to be fixed in any server version soonish?
* [15:11] Latif Khalifa: plus you get many more people to work on fixes (i know snowglobe peeps are working on it)
* [15:11] Issue Helper: [#SVC-5411] No "accepted/declined inventory" notice under server 1.36.0 http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/svc-5411? 
* [15:11] Kitto Flora: According to Andrew, Falcon may havea fix for the 5880/fins/ bouncing bug. But we cannot tell if its a fix until we know if its been deployed
* [15:12] Monty Linden: some oatmeal's are old
* [15:12] Monty Linden: oatmeals 6, 7, 10 and 11 should be the same as jaxx island
* [15:12] Kitto Flora: We need input from Falcon
* [15:13] Monty Linden: 13 14 9 are 1.38
* [15:13] Kitto Flora: Jaxx is at 1.40, and so was the Oatmeal I tested. Both same 1.40 version. But they behave differently
* [15:14] Monty Linden: Moundsa, I think vehicles only from the diff I saw. Simon may know better.
* [15:14] Latif Khalifa: i the plan to test roll on agni next week?
* [15:14] Latif Khalifa: is*
* [15:14] Moundsa Mayo: Thx, Monty
* [15:14] Monty Linden: (Warning, storm here in Boston, I may get disconnected....)
* [15:14] Kitto Flora: Anyone testing pure Dynamics 'vehicles' ?
* [15:14] Maestro Linden: Lares: I haven't seen any movement to fix SVC-54111 yet, but we do have a good test case to verify a future fix, at least.
* [15:14] Issue Helper: Issue does not exist... try again, Maestro Linden
* [15:14] Moundsa Mayo: Well, rolling balls do that hip-hop!
* [15:15] Maestro Linden: er SVC-5411
* [15:15] Issue Helper: [#SVC-5411] No "accepted/declined inventory" notice under server 1.36.0 http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/svc-5411
* [15:16] Lares Carter: is it complex to fix? is there some linden i could IM to get him to fix it? i know this is a big annoyance for a lot of SL users i have talked to.
* [15:16] Kitto Flora: rolling balls are simple physics. The fin bug, when it was observed in H4 had nothing to do with what propelled the moving object
* [15:17] Maestro Linden: I'm not sure how difficult it is to fix
* [15:17] Moundsa Mayo: So 5880 applies to simple physics objects, too.
* [15:17] Simon Linden: yeah, I know Andrew worked on a similar problem with Havok 4 ... it has to do with the collision normal calculations near the object edge
* [15:17] Kitto Flora: You have the balls, Mayo. What do you see?
* [15:17] Monty Linden: which is the fin bug, btw?
* [15:18] Simon Linden: I would _guess_ it would apply to regular objects as well as vehicles
* [15:18] Kitto Flora: fin bug is presently called 5880
* [15:18] Simon Linden: If you go along a road, for example, there are odd jumps at the junction between the objects
* [15:18] Monty Linden: Ah, didn't know it got the 'fin' name.
* [15:19] Moundsa Mayo: troughs not linked
* [15:19] Simon Linden: We end up getting collisions with object faces that we shouldn't
* [15:19] Monty Linden: thought it was much, much older
* [15:19] Moundsa Mayo: 2006, for instance
* [15:19] Kitto Flora: 'fin' is the thing which the 'collision normal calculations near the object edge' simulates. It makes 90-degree angled objects appear to have fins on the edges (from collision pov)
* [15:19] Object: Hello, Avatar!
* [15:20] Kitto Flora: Montty - the fin problem is old., It showed up in H4, was never fixed and brok a lot of content
* [15:20] Kitto Flora: H7 appears to have it worse.
* [15:21] Object: Hello, Avatar!
* [15:21] Moundsa Mayo: 1213, 2006, 5880, all would seem related
* [15:23] Milo Linden: from what i can see the fix for 5880 was in the vehicle code, not sure it will affect other objects
* [15:23] Monty Linden: nice bug reporting on 2006
* [15:23] Milo Linden: going to have that fix deployed soon after this meeting
* [15:23] Monty Linden: I chatted with falcon about 1213 and he thought it separate from 5880
* [15:23] Monty Linden: there's a lot of that in the code, however...
* [15:24] Kitto Flora: Then... we await the sim code update :)
* [15:24] Monty Linden: I wish we had the blasted fixes up on aditi, I really thought they were here
* [15:24] Monty Linden: I want to know how they physics is behaving now relative to 1.38
* [15:25] Monty Linden: And I *think* we have all the new crashers fixed.
* [15:25] Monty Linden: But not deployed yet.
* [15:25] Kitto Flora: 1.40.0.205454 otherwise is working ok, except for SVC-5889
* [15:26] Issue Helper: [#SVC-5889] Small vehicle (steam engine) has 3 degree y-axis rotation while moving. http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/svc-5889
* [15:26] Kitto Flora: Clicks seem to be fixed (touch transmission daughter/root)
* [15:27] Monty Linden: Okay, informal poll:
* [15:27] Monty Linden: Does it feel better, worse, same from 1.38?
* [15:27] Monty Linden: physics + crashers
* [15:27] Monty Linden: (no lag comments)
* [15:27] Monty Linden: go!
* [15:27] Ovaltine Constantine: Same
* [15:28] Kitto Flora: same
* [15:28] Moundsa Mayo: Better, since the interpenetration defect has apparently been repaired.
* [15:28] Drew Dwi: same
* [15:28] Moundsa Mayo: Otherwise cannot detect any differnce
* [15:29] Techwolf Lupindo: What little time I played on 1.40, same except for http texture tranfer that got shut off.
* [15:30] Monty Linden: Okay, that's our baseline level, I guess. Thanks.
* [15:30] Ovaltine Constantine: Wait HTTP textures were turned off too?
* [15:30] Monty Linden: Yeah, viewer isn't ready.
* [15:30] Monty Linden: What we'll do is get a full set of monitoring going on before and after
* [15:30] Latif Khalifa: please turn them back on, it's just a dev setting
* [15:31] Techwolf Lupindo: Viewer defaults to http off, why kill it on server side?
* [15:31] Monty Linden: and really understand how things progress as we enable it.
* [15:32] Monty Linden: But http textures will get there.
* [15:32] Monty Linden: Just not 1.40
* [15:32] Ovaltine Constantine: Obvious question: When?
* [15:32] Techwolf Lupindo: How can the open source group fix the bugs in the client if the http texttuew transfer is killed?
* [15:33] Latif Khalifa: that's what they told us about uploadbakedtexure and webfetchinventorydescendants two years ago :P
* [15:33] Latif Khalifa: once a cap gets disabled, it rarely comes back ;)
* [15:33] Monty Linden: hehehe
* [15:33] Monty Linden: I know.... *sigh*
* [15:34] Monty Linden: However, Oz Linden sits right next to me and he's serious about representing the opensource-dev people.
* [15:34] Ovaltine Constantine: So the big 2 lag reducers of 1.40 (region crossing and http textures) are gone?
* [15:34] Ovaltine Constantine: So when will we get those
* [15:34] Simon Linden: The fix for uploadbakedtextures is in the works, fwiw. Hopefully 1.42
* [15:34] Monty Linden: region crossing was never a lag reducer.
* [15:34] Monty Linden: It moved bits of processing around.
* [15:35] Latif Khalifa: Monty, region crossings (and teleports in) is the major cause of lag
* [15:35] Latif Khalifa: avatar rezzing in sim can freeze it tottally for up to a minute
* [15:35] Monty Linden: oh, I know that.
* [15:36] Kitto Flora: Latif: does the lag depend on the script load carried by the Avatar?
* [15:36] Monty Linden: But that's a bigger problem than what was originally going into 1.40
* [15:36] Latif Khalifa: i was just commentng on crossings not being cause of lag ;)
* [15:36] Monty Linden: np
* [15:37] Monty Linden: they are, *no one* here would argue they aren't
* [15:37] Monty Linden: they stink
* [15:37] Monty Linden: (Really, why can't you all just stay in one place? It would be so much easier!)
* [15:37] Monty Linden: :)
* [15:38] Gooden UgglaGooden Uggla *blink blink*
* [15:38] Latif Khalifa: it's a difficult problem to solve, i understand, but at least not everyone in the target sim shouldn't be affected by someone coming in
* [15:38] Kitto Flora: Someone should study how region crossings were done in 2005, and go back to that method.
* [15:38] Monty Linden: Anyway, Oz really is starting to look after the open source guys.
* [15:38] Drew Dwi: somehow I imagine simulator code has changed a bit from 2005 :P
* [15:38] Latif Khalifa: in 2005 people didn't go around with 5000 attached prims and 400 scripts
* [15:39] Gooden Uggla: latif they have the sim freeze isolated to the mono distro they use
* [15:39] Monty Linden: Another important one going into the future:
* [15:39] Gooden Uggla: next distro supposedly fixes it
* [15:39] Latif Khalifa: not only mono, also object rezzing (deserialization)
* [15:39] Monty Linden: Falcon has been doing a great job.
* [15:39] Kitto Flora: in 2005 I could run seam trains across borders, it was that fast. Then LL 'improved' it - and its been worse ever since.
* [15:39] Monty Linden: If you've had or have physics problems,
* [15:39] Gooden Uggla: yes, but the mono is the lion's share of that
* [15:39] Monty Linden: and just given up on pjira for reporting them,
* [15:39] Simon Linden: Mono scripts aren't the only source of lag, there are a lot of factors
* [15:39] Monty Linden: push it again.
* [15:40] Moundsa Mayo: OK, yer ON!
* [15:40] Simon Linden: You'll still get lag using lsl
* [15:40] Monty Linden: There really is someone on this side looking at these...
* [15:40] Monty Linden: Excellent.
* [15:41] Moundsa Mayo: How do we revive long-standing issues?
* [15:41] Gooden Uggla: i think we're all willing to live with texture lag IF mono gets fixed...
* [15:41] Monty Linden: Not certain, Milo, Maestro?
* [15:41] Monty Linden: best way to kick them up?
* [15:41] Latif Khalifa: i don't buy "we can only use distro mono package" ;) debian will include 2.6 in about year 2015
* [15:41] Monty Linden: new jira?
* [15:42] Moundsa Mayo: Intentional duplicate? Lose all the old votes ...
* [15:42] Monty Linden: true
* [15:42] Milo Linden: yea new jira or reopened, adding newer notes etc
* [15:42] Moundsa Mayo: So pile on with the comments ...
* [15:42] Monty Linden: In the case of something like 1213, it needs a reopen.
* [15:42] Monty Linden: Believe it's currently marked closed or resolved.
* [15:43] Latif Khalifa: change of affected version helps too
* [15:43] Milo Linden: also make sure the component is set correctly ie physics
* [15:43] Moundsa Mayo: Nope - just looked - OPEN
* [15:43] Monty Linden: Speaking for myself, you can always bug me.
* [15:43] Monty Linden: I'm happy turning things into internal noise.
* [15:43] Moundsa Mayo: It is Physics
* [15:43] Moundsa Mayo: Havok 4 Beta
* [15:44] Latif KhalifaLatif Khalifa bugs monty "enable various caps" :P
* [15:44] Moundsa Mayo: Created: 19/Jan/08 08:17 AM Updated: 03/Apr/08 07:07 AM
* [15:44] Milo Linden: and edit the affects version to the latest release
* [15:44] Moundsa Mayo: Hey, thanks for taking all these bullets for Oskar! B^D
* [15:44] Latif Khalifa: hsha
* [15:44] Latif Khalifa: haha
* [15:45] Latif Khalifa: is he on vacation?
* [15:45] Monty Linden: I'm putting an email alias in sending all my stuff to him
* [15:45] Monty Linden: he shouldn't have got on an airplane
* [15:45] Kitto Flora: 1213 - 2006 - 5880 - all the same thing - its inside HAVOK. Whats amazing is that it appeard in H4, and here we are with H7, and its not only still there, its worse?
* [15:45] Monty Linden: touring our empire
* [15:46] Monty Linden: Kitto: it's that extra big of magic we bring to the table :-)
* [15:46] Gooden Uggla: drew the short straw to singapore?
* [15:47] Gooden UgglaGooden Uggla starts up the betting pool for "what will Oskar get caned for?"
* [15:47] Moundsa Mayo: No Workflow Option to change Affects Version/s, only Resolve Issue or Resolve (Fix Pending)
* [15:47] Kitto Flora: Monty - are you saying that 5880 etc, is caused by something that Linden Labs has added to HAVOK?
* [15:48] Monty Linden: No, I'm joking.
* [15:48] Kitto Flora: OK :)
* [15:48] Monty Linden: But having now read through the physics code, I have an appreciation for the complexity.
* [15:48] Moundsa Mayo: B^)
* [15:48] Kitto Flora: Join the club :)
* [15:49] Monty Linden: That's why I'm always encouraging more physics testing.
* [15:49] Monty Linden: When 1213/2006 are dealt with, I'll bet it's unrelated to the 5880 fix.
* [15:49] Monty Linden: But that's a story for another day.
* [15:50] Moundsa Mayo: I'll be adding a physics issue soon - when a physical object is at rest on another physical object, the bottom one visually rotates slowly until touched,. while the top one remains at rest.
* [15:51] Gooden Uggla: added havoc 7 beta to svc-1213
* [15:51] Issue Helper: [#SVC-1213] Tank vehicle H4 problems. Seam line detection while driving over perfectly aligned flat prims causes violent random bumping. http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/svc-1213
* [15:51] Monty Linden: there has been some changes in the way motion is damped/stopped
* [15:51] Monty Linden: If you have a good reproducer of the bug, that would be excellent.
* [15:52] Moundsa Mayo: Ahh, Gooden - Edit issue . Duhhhh ...
* [15:52] Gooden UgglaGooden Uggla *smiles*
* [15:52] Moundsa Mayo: I have a great reproducer.
* [15:52] Kitto Flora: ... end ejected too?
* [15:52] Moundsa Mayo: Several, in fact.
* [15:52] Moundsa Mayo: They go back to H4, too.
* [15:53] Techwolf Lupindo: One thing i've noticed about physicck, why does stacking two blocks have a HUGE gap in them?
* [15:53] Monty Linden: copy select ?
* [15:53] Simon Linden: It's the collision tolerance for the Havok engine
* [15:53] Second Life: Your region will restart in 5 minutes and 0 seconds for maintenance.
* [15:53] Monty Linden: looks like the code push is coming
* [15:53] Techwolf Lupindo: Ok. Who hit the reset button?
* [15:53] Kitto Flora: Yay, such timing :)
* [15:53] Simon Linden: That's a great way to ensure office hours ends on time :)
* [15:53] Moundsa Mayo: Techwolf, is it more than 0.100m?
* [15:53] WolfPup Lowenhar: or early
* [15:53] Latif Khalifa: that's one way of saying "you can all go away now" :P
* [15:54] Siann Beck: I guess that's one way to end OH :)
* [15:54] Moundsa Mayo: OH, tricky way to dodge incoming B^)
* [15:54] Object: Hello, Avatar!
* [15:54] Gooden Uggla: which regions have already been reset?
* [15:54] Maestro LindenMaestro Linden prefers to end OH with a live crasher demo
* [15:54] Siann Beck: lol
* [15:54] Monty Linden: So, svc-5880 fix should be in this push or I'm going to scream.
* [15:54] Issue Helper: [#SVC-5880] Vehicles "Jumping" when crossing prims http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/svc-5880 
* [15:54] Latif Khalifa: lol
* [15:55] Kitto Flora: Morris : 1.40.0.205454
* [15:55] Monty Linden: that would be dramatic
* [15:55] Milo Linden: next version should be 1.40.0.205577 if not later
* [15:55] Second Life: Your region will restart in 3 minutes and 0 seconds for maintenance.
* [15:55] Kitto Flora: Monty: Got voice?
* [15:55] Monty Linden: go for it maestro
* [15:55] Moundsa Mayo: need llAgentSurviveRegionRestart()
* [15:55] Latif KhalifaLatif Khalifa walks over to ahern
* [15:55] Maestro Linden: oh, I don't have one for this version. 1.40 is just too rock solid ;)
* [15:55] Drew Dwi: wow
* [15:55] Techwolf LupindoTechwolf Lupindo reads Maestro comment....
* [15:55] Drew Dwi: that notice is really easy to miss
* [15:55] Drew Dwi: in 2.0.2
* [15:56] Moundsa Mayo: Yup, Drew - MANY of them are!
* [15:56] Drew Dwi: that one should be yellow/glaring/stick around
* [15:56] Moundsa Mayo: With flashing and beeping and bells