Mesh/Archive/2011-05-02

Agenda:
# Changes coming to mesh asset format! *important info* [Nyx]
# Can you explain at what points meshes are tested for "validity" and whether that can account for delayed disappearance of objects several hours or days after they are rezzed without any error indications, and/or for semmingly random silent rezzing failures. [Drongle McMahon].
# Has account-wide throttling for changing of UUIDs on meshes been looked into such as is used in the HTTP functions? (i.e. An account in a sim cannot swap any mesh UUID more than X times in X seconds - suggested values 1 swap in 6/8/10 seconds; account-wide throttle would prevent "gaming" with multiple scripts as was the very intention of its use in HTTP). [Sebastean Steamweaver]
# Can you give us an update on recent progress and what your current priorities are? [Vivienne Daguerre]
# Is there anything in particular you need us to test? [Vivienne Daguerre]
#Does the SL importer require a physics shape for rigged mesh now? If no, what physics shape is given to the model if no physics shape is assigned? [Ashasekayi Ra]
#In viewer 2.6.6 (227422) [and the latest viewer I just downloaded], you have to assign one of the auto generated LOD as the physics shape before the upload button will show when using a rigged mesh. You can't use an external LOD at all. Is this a bug? Jira Listing: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/CTS-558? [Ashasekayi Ra]
#Could you recap in layman's terms when we should use prim versus convex hull physics type? [Ashasekayi Ra]
# Is anyone else getting a runtime error with the latest mesh viewer? "Runtime Error! R6034 An application has made an attempt to load the C runtime library incorrectly. Please contact the application's support team for more information," and then "The following Media Plugin has failed: media_plugin_webkit Please re-install the plugin or contact the vendor if you continue to experience problems." [Vivienne Daguerre]
# Any progress on costs of any kind? [Drongle]
==Attendees List==
*Asha (ashasekayi.ra)
*Ashiri Sands (ashiri.sands)
*Bart Seymour (bart.seymour)
*Black Catseye (black.catseye)
*Bloodsong Termagant (bloodsong.termagant)
*Bubbalicious (bubbalicious.chauveau)
*CrystalShard Foo (crystalshard.foo)
*draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam)
*Drongle McMahon (drongle.mcmahon)
*F L I P (flip.idlemind)
*JR4201 Kruyschek (jr4201.kruyschek)
*Œ± (kopilo.hallard)
*Nyx Linden (nyx.linden)
*Prep Linden (prep.linden)
*Racush (racush.cheeky)
*Ranya Palmer (ranya.palmer)
*davep (runitai.linden)
*Rusalka Writer (rusalka.writer)
*Sebastean Steamweaver (sebastean.steamweaver)
*Second Life (second.life)
*And all i got was this lousy DN (tankmaster.finesmith)
*Techwolf Lupindo (techwolf.lupindo)
*Vivienne Daguerre (vivienne.daguerre)
*Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)
*Z (zslash.cyberstar)
==Transcript for Monday May 2, 2011==
[10:48]	Second Life 	Teleport completed from http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Lindenworld%20PM/17/147/23
[10:58]	Techwolf Lupindo 	Ime not sure how, but I survide that sim going poof.
[10:58]	Techwolf Lupindo 	regine (queens)
[10:59]	Drongle McMahon 	Nyx broke the sim!
[10:59]	Sebastean Steamweaver 	Thanks again, hehe
[11:02]	Sebastean Steamweaver 	I'm gonna stay here where it's "safe"
[11:02]	Sebastean Steamweaver 	Yes, I think so
[11:02]	Drongle McMahon 	Is chat working?
[11:02]	Racush (racush.cheeky) 	uh lol
[11:02]	Nyx Linden 	we'll give everyone a minute to get back
[11:02]	davep (runitai.linden) 	quick, someone toss me an avatar!
[11:03]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Sim Crashed again..
[11:03]	Nyx Linden 	agenda is here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mesh_User_Group
[11:03]	Sebastean Steamweaver 	This seems to happen every mesh meeting I attend.
[11:04]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Hi everyone :)
[11:04]	Bubbalicious (bubbalicious.chauveau) 	hi
[11:04]	And all i got was this lousy DN (tankmaster.finesmith)	hiya prep
[11:04]	Prep Linden 	yo yo folks!
[11:04]	Techwolf Lupindo 	Are we backup and chatting again? :-)
[11:04]	davep (runitai.linden) 	I can has avatar?
[11:04]	Nyx Linden 	agenda is here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mesh_User_Group
[11:05]	davep (runitai.linden) 	any avatar will do -- I'm all out of avatars
[11:05]	Nyx Linden 	let's get started!
[11:05]	Racush (racush.cheeky) 	did you get mine ;D?
[11:05]	Black Catseye 	lets go
[11:05]	Nyx Linden 	Charlar linden is out for a few weeks so I'll be running the usergroups in the meantime
[11:05]	davep (runitai.linden) 	ah, yay! (Ah, spring!)
[11:05]	Nyx Linden 	topic 1: "Changes coming to mesh asset format! *important info* [Nyx] "
[11:06]	Nyx Linden 	so we're going to be rolling out some changes to the asset format later this week
[11:06]	Nyx Linden 	the down side: you'll have to re-upload your meshes :(
[11:06]	Drongle McMahon 	Aarrrgghhhh!
[11:06]	Nyx Linden 	the up side: we *hope* this will get us to a more stable asset format
[11:06]	Rusalka Writer 	Got back for the good part.
[11:06]	And all i got was this lousy DN (tankmaster.finesmith)	does this meen more free $$? :P (Does this mean more free $ $? : P)
[11:06]	Black Catseye 	not a problem
[11:07]	Nyx Linden 	if you need more beta $ do let me know
[11:07]	Rusalka Writer 	The reupload part. Oboy.
[11:07]	And all i got was this lousy DN (tankmaster.finesmith)	ok
[11:07]	JR4201 Kruyschek 	lol
[11:07]	Rusalka Writer 	After the viewer crashed my whole entire computer!
[11:07]	Drongle McMahon 	What are the changes?
[11:07]	Nyx Linden 	sorry for the inconvenience - we'd rather make the change while we're still on the beta grid though :)
[11:07]	Sebastean Steamweaver 	What changes are being made with the new format that make it preferable over current - not arguing, just pure curiosity.
[11:08]	Œ± (kopilo.hallard) 	does the format change include removing the mesh type from inventory?
[11:08]	Racush (racush.cheeky) 	sorry that one had a bad neck setting lol
[11:08]	davep (runitai.linden) 	Sebastean: mostly renaming ambiguous fields and removing deprecated fields that we thought we'd need but don't need
[11:09]	Sebastean Steamweaver 	/me nods
[11:09]	davep (runitai.linden) 	also, the sim will be packing in some metadata to make rezzing of mesh assets faster
[11:09]	Sebastean Steamweaver 	Sounds good :)
[11:09]	Nyx Linden 	so good and necessary improvements, we'd rather get them rolled out sooner rather than later
[11:09]	Nyx Linden 	sorry for the inconvenience
[11:09]	Sebastean Steamweaver 	That's what beta is for after all
[11:09]	Drongle McMahon 	Are you nearly ready to make the official format public?
[11:09]	Black Catseye 	yeah indeed
[11:09]	davep (runitai.linden) 	yes
[11:10]	davep (runitai.linden) 	got a doc started and everything!
[11:10]	And all i got was this lousy DN (tankmaster.finesmith)	lol
[11:10]	JR4201 Kruyschek 	that`s good news
[11:10]	JR4201 Kruyschek 	ty Runitai (Runitai Company)
[11:10]	Nyx Linden 	any more questions on the asset change? we should be rolling that out later this week
[11:10]	CrystalShard Foo 	Can we ge a copy paste of what you just said? Missed 90% of it
[11:10]	Drongle McMahon 	Will this be new serverv and viewer? If so, how do we synchroniser?
[11:11]	Nyx Linden 	I'll be posting a transcript after the usergroup - check the forums
[11:11]	davep (runitai.linden) 	yes -- we'll be rolling out to the mesh experimental channel first
[11:12]	davep (runitai.linden) 	I forget which regions that includes --
[11:12]	Rusalka Writer 	Where is that these days?
[11:12]	davep (runitai.linden) 	I'll look that up
[11:12]	davep (runitai.linden) 	but we'll post to the forums with links to installers
[11:12]	Rusalka Writer 	Groovy.
[11:12]	Nyx Linden 	we have three channels: experimental, stable, and legacy
[11:13]	davep (runitai.linden) 	/me looks up what sims are on experimental.
[11:13]	Nyx Linden 	so we can test potential regressions
[11:13]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Channels?
[11:13]	Vivienne Daguerre 	here on the beta grid or are you talking about Agni?
[11:13]	Drongle McMahon 	Can you detail the changes in the mesh forum, so we know what's happening?
[11:13]	Nyx Linden 	just talking about mesh regions on the beta grid
[11:13]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Ah ok
[11:14]	davep (runitai.linden) 	mesh experiemnetal is sandboxes 20, 21, 27, and 28
[11:14]	Drongle McMahon 	I guess sandbox 15 is legacy as it hasn't changed for ages.
[11:14]	CrystalShard Foo 	Is llRayCast scheduled to be released with mesh?
[11:14]	davep (runitai.linden) 	Mesh Legacy is Sandboxes 14, 15, 7, and 8
[11:14]	davep (runitai.linden) 	the rest are Mesh Import
[11:15]	Nyx Linden 	any other questions or time for the next topic?
[11:15]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Import works differently in different sandboxes?
[11:15]	Bart Seymour 	Mirror textures?
[11:15]	Bart Seymour 	:-)
[11:15]	Drongle McMahon 	Will we be able to have a new an old viewer format at the same time, to test the differences?
[11:16]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "Can you explain at what points meshes are tested for "validity" and whether that can account for delayed disappearance of objects several hours or days after they are rezzed without any error indications, and/or for semmingly random silent rezzing failures. [Drongle McMahon]. "
[11:16]	davep (runitai.linden) 	Asha: it's just different sim code
[11:16]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Ah ok. Thanks Dave
[11:16]	Drongle McMahon 	Oh Ok.
[11:16]	Nyx Linden 	validity should be checked at upload time, at rez time, and if the region restarts
[11:17]	Drongle McMahon 	Are the tests supposed to be the same? I keep getting meshes disappearing randomly.
[11:17]	Nyx Linden 	if you have specific pieces of content that no longer work, chances are we changed something about the validity checks
[11:17]	davep (runitai.linden) 	it could also be a rez bug, particularly on a Mesh Experimental region
[11:17]	Drongle McMahon 	They rez ok, stay for a few days, then disappear.
[11:17]	Nyx Linden 	we've been experimenting with some minor tweaks. hopefully it shouldn't change as frequently after the next few rounds of validity checks
[11:18]	Nyx Linden 	entirely possible its a server bug as well, so if you have a specific repro, do let us know!
[11:18]	davep (runitai.linden) 	you can tell if it's a Mesh Import/Legacy/Experimental region by looking at the Help->About Second Life text
[11:18]	Drongle McMahon 	Totally unreproducible!
[11:18]	Bart Seymour 	i have one nyx
[11:18]	davep (runitai.linden) 	the third line below "you are at..."
[11:19]	Bart Seymour 	I tried to tp a friend of mine, show my new mesh, everytime he entered the sim, the sim crashed
[11:19]	Bart Seymour 	logging me and him out
[11:19]	davep (runitai.linden) 	Drongle: are they getting auto-returned ?
[11:19]	Drongle McMahon 	Davep, no. They aren't at 0,0,0 either.
[11:19]	davep (runitai.linden) 	auto-return is set to about a week
[11:20]	Nyx Linden 	odd - would love to get more detailed information on this kind of bug :)
[11:20]	Drongle McMahon 	It;s on Mesh City ... parts of the gallery. Shouldn't be autoreturned.
[11:20]	davep (runitai.linden) 	it's entirely possible there's som bug with region restart (it's Entirely muligt der's as bug med region restart)
[11:20]	davep (runitai.linden) 	file a jira, include asset id's for the affected content, mention it might be releated to region restart
[11:20]	Bart Seymour 	yeah but i think it was because his pc was not powerfull enough
[11:21]	Bart Seymour 	the polygons that needed to rez at that particular spot was high
[11:21]	Drongle McMahon 	I do have the vague impression it happens with restarts ... is there any way to get info about when restarts have been done?
[11:21]	Bart Seymour 	so lots of meshes in 10m range i guess
[11:21]	Drongle McMahon 	I will do that, but it's different parts each time.
[11:21]	Nyx Linden 	Bart - please file a jira and let us know when it happened so we can check the server logs. Did the region crash or did the viewer crash?
[11:21]	Bart Seymour 	ok no prob
[11:22]	Bart Seymour 	will do :-)
[11:22]	Vivienne Daguerre 	I think it happens when I try to cross here possibly
[11:22]	Nyx Linden 	anything else on validity checks?
[11:22]	davep (runitai.linden) 	Mesh City has been running for 3 days
[11:22]	davep (runitai.linden) 	Mesh city 2 for 3 days
[11:23]	davep (runitai.linden) 	Mesh cityh 3 for 1d 9h 45m
[11:23]	davep (runitai.linden) 	mesh city 4 for 3d 0h 16,
[11:23]	Nyx Linden 	Drongle - would love to get more detailed info. Let us know how we can help
[11:24]	Œ± (kopilo.hallard) 	sorry, have to call it a night, falling asleep at the keyboard (3.53am)
[11:24]	Œ± (kopilo.hallard) 	night all
[11:24]	Rusalka Writer 	Randomly disappearing mesh would be very bad.
[11:24]	davep (runitai.linden) 	probably shoudln't pigeon hole on this here - file a jira with relevant info (time content disappeared, asset ids)
[11:24]	davep (runitai.linden) 	gotta move on
[11:24]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "Has account-wide throttling for changing of UUIDs on meshes been looked into such as is used in the HTTP functions? (i.e. An account in a sim cannot swap any mesh UUID more than X times in X seconds - suggested values 1 swap in 6/8/10 seconds; account-wide throttle would prevent "gaming" with multiple scripts as was the very intention of its use in HTTP). [Sebastean Steamweaver] "
[11:25]	davep (runitai.linden) 	UUID flipping for meshes isn't a throttling issue, it's an architectural issue
[11:25]	davep (runitai.linden) 	it just doesn't work
[11:25]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Did the SIM crash?
[11:25]	Techwolf Lupindo 	did the regine crashed?
[11:25]	Sebastean Steamweaver 	I thought that sim was safe.
[11:25]	Sebastean Steamweaver 	Yes
[11:25]	Vivienne Daguerre 	Sorry folks, if I try to cross to where the seats are, crasshes happen
[11:26]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Oi (Hi)
[11:26]	Vivienne Daguerre 	don't know why, I am wearing 0 scripts I think
[11:26]	Nyx Linden 	will have to pass the server guys some log files :)
[11:26]	Vivienne Daguerre 	I will stand still
[11:26]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	I sent a log.
[11:26]	Second Life 	There is no suitable surface to sit on, try another spot.
[11:26]	Second Life 	No room to sit here, try another spot.
[11:27]	Sebastean Steamweaver 	Yes
[11:27]	Nyx Linden 	any further questions on topic 3?
[11:27]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Misssed it
[11:27]	Nyx Linden 	"Has account-wide throttling for changing of UUIDs on meshes been looked into such as is used in the HTTP functions? (i.e. An account in a sim cannot swap any mesh UUID more than X times in X seconds - suggested values 1 swap in 6/8/10 seconds; account-wide throttle would prevent "gaming" with multiple scripts as was the very intention of its use in HTTP). [Sebastean Steamweaver] "
[11:27]	davep (runitai.linden) 	UUID flipping of mesh assets is an architectural issue, not a throttling issue
[11:28]	davep (runitai.linden) 	there's no way for the sim to change the UUID of a mesh asset after the object has been rezzed
[11:28]	davep (runitai.linden) 	(no way for it to change the mesh asset an object references)
[11:28]	Sebastean Steamweaver 	Hmm
[11:28]	davep (runitai.linden) 	this used to "work" but would cause many sim crashes and stalls
[11:29]	Rusalka Writer 	I think we have sufficient crashes as it is.
[11:29]	Techwolf Lupindo 	Hmm...sound like coding to make sure mesh texture UUID flipping would never work.
[11:30]	Techwolf Lupindo 	Oh dear...I think I got logged out again...
[11:30]	Sebastean Steamweaver 	I wouldn't really go that far. I think with a reasonable throttling, they'd be willing enough to let it work. I don't think they'd specifically code against it.
[11:30]	Bart Seymour 	Mmmm in my opinion is that the viewer should only crash, not the sim
[11:30]	And all i got was this lousy DN (tankmaster.finesmith)	your still here tech „ã°
[11:30]	davep (runitai.linden) 	nothing should crash, ever
[11:30]	Bart Seymour 	lol true
[11:30]	Rusalka Writer 	*snort*
[11:31]	davep (runitai.linden) 	anyway -- the mesh rez pipeline was written to solve the problem of loading meshes causing frame stalls on the sim
[11:31]	Z (zslash.cyberstar) 	too bad any software can crash, its computers, we have to live with it ^^
[11:31]	davep (runitai.linden) 	mesh introduced a new requirement on the sim that the viewer takes for granted -- the ability to asynchronously load assets associated with objects after the objects have been rezzed
[11:31]	Rusalka Writer 	Heck, I crashe a Mac today. All things are possible.
[11:32]	davep (runitai.linden) 	for the sim, this is much more problematic than anticipated -- especially with the presence of a running havok simulation
[11:32]	davep (runitai.linden) 	the techniques we use for volumes just didn't work for meshes -- the result was leveraging a new threaded-rez pipeline to load meshes in a background thread before rezzing the associated object
[11:33]	davep (runitai.linden) 	a side effect of that decision is that objects can never change their mesh asset id
[11:33]	Z (zslash.cyberstar) 	i say forget the uuid flip talk and give us static animations
[11:33]	Racush (racush.cheeky) 	well some new alternative
[11:34]	JR4201 Kruyschek 	can change UUID isn`t bad?
[11:34]	Sebastean Steamweaver 	Well, I've never been promoting UUID flip for animations really. There are a lot of other uses. As for the pipeline, it's disappointing that it can't change, but I appreciate the explanation and understand.
[11:34]	Rusalka Writer 	Will people be precluded from attempting something disastrous?
[11:35]	Nyx Linden 	re animations: one step at a time. I'd rather release mesh earlier without animations and then add it later :)
[11:35]	JR4201 Kruyschek 	good question :)~
[11:35]	Nyx Linden 	could you clarify Rusaika?
[11:35]	Drongle McMahon 	Agreed, Nyx.
[11:35]	davep (runitai.linden) 	disastrous can mean so many things...
[11:35]	F L I P (flip.idlemind) 	But you're not ruling out mesh animations?
[11:35]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	They've already removed the ability to swap mesh UUIDs.
[11:35]	Rusalka Writer 	Well, if there's a way to damage the operations of a sim, will it be made illegal or un-doable or something?
[11:35]	Nyx Linden 	ruling it out for the initial release, yes. For the future - it would be good to have
[11:36]	Rusalka Writer 	Having crashed a few sims in my day....
[11:36]	davep (runitai.linden) 	Resulka: yes
[11:36]	Rusalka Writer 	Good deal.
[11:36]	Bart Seymour 	I have maybe one other question, what if people upload a mesh that is for example garbled, many polygons running through each other can that crash a sim and viewer?
[11:36]	Z (zslash.cyberstar) 	nyx not only good but could be the most powerful thing ever in sl
[11:36]	Nyx Linden 	it would be very powerful yes :)
[11:36]	Z (zslash.cyberstar) 	:)
[11:36]	davep (runitai.linden) 	Bart: that's what the validator is for
[11:37]	Bloodsong Termagant 	the future possibility of stand-alone boned meshes was discussed at last week's meeting.
[11:37]	davep (runitai.linden) 	it should, if working properly, reject such meshes from ever reaching the asset server
[11:37]	Nyx Linden 	running low on time, can we move on?
[11:37]	Bart Seymour 	ok :-) yeah im fairly new to all this
[11:37]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	yes please
[11:37]	Bart Seymour 	np i shutup :-p (and shutup example:-p)
[11:37]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "Can you give us an update on recent progress and what your current priorities are? [Vivienne Daguerre] "
[11:37]	Nyx Linden 	recently - we're merging!
[11:37]	Rusalka Writer 	Oy.
[11:37]	Z (zslash.cyberstar) 	fix bugs that was fixed before :P
[11:37]	Nyx Linden 	trying to get back to non-merge related work soooon
[11:38]	davep (runitai.linden) 	we've got a bug backlog of 400 issues
[11:38]	F L I P (flip.idlemind) 	/me thinks out loud: Sims overrun with zombies sound like a cool idea, but prim movements just don't do it...animated zombie meshes could make for a really nice haunted house
[11:38]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	o.O (oO)
[11:38]	F L I P (flip.idlemind) 	Sorry, what?
[11:38]	Nyx Linden 	so trying to get back to bug hunting as well as some further feature work
[11:39]	Drongle McMahon 	Featurev work?
[11:39]	Z (zslash.cyberstar) 	i think they mean mesh cost calculations xD
[11:39]	Nyx Linden 	for example: having the sim tell you how much it will cost to upload a mesh :)
[11:39]	Drongle McMahon 	I though we had all the features.
[11:39]	Rusalka Writer 	ARC? (CRA?)
[11:39]	Drongle McMahon 	Oh that.
[11:39]	Nyx Linden 	before you upload it
[11:39]	Rusalka Writer 	Pony?
[11:40]	Drongle McMahon 	It could just say "Too much"
[11:40]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	heh
[11:40]	Sebastean Steamweaver 	Oh that reminds me. Has the My Little Pony internet phenomenon infected Mesh yet? :P
[11:40]	Nyx Linden 	all of the major pieces are there, but how we count prims and how we upload them could use some....polishing
[11:40]	Drongle McMahon 	or "If you have to ask, you can't afford it".
[11:40]	Rusalka Writer 	Intellectual Property Rights?
[11:41]	davep (runitai.linden) 	The main "features" left for mesh are mostly centered around accounting (streaming cost, physics cost) and monetization (how much it costs in L$ to upload a mesh)
[11:41]	Nyx Linden 	not as shiny as the features we have now, but necessary for us to actually go to the main grid :)
[11:42]	Bart Seymour 	In my opinion you should not ask too much, mesh is really trial and error
[11:42]	JR4201 Kruyschek 	in my opinion it should be the same as sculpties according to vertices count
[11:42]	Nyx Linden 	you will always be allowed to upload trial meshes to the beta grid
[11:42]	Z (zslash.cyberstar) 	if mesh fails secondlife will be dead in no time guaranteed
[11:43]	Nyx Linden 	so that's what we're working on. Any objections to going to the next topic?
[11:43]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Nope
[11:43]	Bart Seymour 	nope, shoot!
[11:43]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "Does the SL importer require a physics shape for rigged mesh now? If no, what physics shape is given to the model if no physics shape is assigned? [Ashasekayi Ra] "
[11:43]	Sebastean Steamweaver 	Well it isn't dead yet, and it doesn't have mesh, but yeah. I think SL needs mesh to develop further.
[11:43]	Z (zslash.cyberstar) 	true seb
[11:43]	Z (zslash.cyberstar) 	wer in 2011... (who in 2011 ...)
[11:43]	Bart Seymour 	In my opinion you are doing a great job, if this really runs smoothly, it can potentially overrule all MMO's in the world
[11:44]	Nyx Linden 	I believe we need a single convex hull representation no matter what type of mesh it is
[11:44]	Z (zslash.cyberstar) 	yes bart, if its odne right.
[11:44]	Z (zslash.cyberstar) 	done*
[11:44]	Nyx Linden 	but more complex physics representations aren't required.
[11:44]	davep (runitai.linden) 	you can see the physics rep used in the "physics shape" display if you drop the object on the ground
[11:44]	davep (runitai.linden) 	no physics rep is used while attached
[11:44]	JR4201 Kruyschek 	simple and nice solution that convex hull
[11:45]	Nyx Linden 	we require it because you should always be able to drop something you have attached to you - so we need at least a simple convex hull rep.
[11:45]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	But, you do have to set one in the physics tab for a rigged mesh?
[11:45]	Drongle McMahon 	Convex hull can still be expensive if it ha a lot of points.
[11:45]	Nyx Linden 	we generate the single convex hull automagically
[11:45]	Bart Seymour 	I have one question, is Linden labs working togheter with other companies to provide better tools to build Collada files?
[11:45]	Nyx Linden 	the physics tab is for determining the more complex "prim" physics shape
[11:46]	Ashiri Sands 	We only need the root prim/mesh to have a physics shape?
[11:46]	davep (runitai.linden) 	Bart: please add questions to the agenda
[11:46]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	It's letting you upload one without setting one in the physics tab now though.
[11:46]	davep (runitai.linden) 	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mesh_User_Group
[11:46]	Bart Seymour 	ok
[11:46]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	*It isn't
[11:46]	Nyx Linden 	all meshes need to have a physics shape in the asset itself (at least a single convex hull)
[11:46]	Nyx Linden 	however, you can disable the physicality of the prim if its in a linkset
[11:47]	Drongle McMahon 	I think the question is whether the deafult convex hull is calculated automatically if no shape is specified?
[11:47]	davep (runitai.linden) 	bottom line, if the "Upload" button on the importer isn't greyed out, the mesh *should* successfully upload
[11:47]	davep (runitai.linden) 	any necessary data that you didn't explicitly specify should be filled in automatically
[11:47]	Rusalka Writer 	Anybody have a link to the release candidates?
[11:47]	Nyx Linden 	Drongle: the single convex hull is generated no matter what you do.
[11:47]	Nyx Linden 	automagically
[11:47]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	It is greyed out though.
[11:47]	Drongle McMahon 	I thought so.
[11:48]	Bart Seymour 	nope i created a mesh, everytime i load it, my viewer crashes :-p
[11:48]	Rusalka Writer 	I enjoyed that issue.
[11:48]	davep (runitai.linden) 	Bart: sweet, please file a jira and attach the .dae file
[11:48]	Bart Seymour 	hehe ok
[11:48]	Bart Seymour 	np (eg)
[11:48]	draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam) 	/me hasn't heard 'automagically' in a year or two, and is glad to hear it again
[11:48]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	lol
[11:48]	Nyx Linden 	Asha - could you send us a description of what you do while uploading that causes the upload button to be disabled?
[11:49]	davep (runitai.linden) 	/me gets all hand wavy.
[11:49]	Sebastean Steamweaver 	Where science, computers, and fantasy combine... you get particle effects.
[11:49]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	I made a jira already. It's in the next question.
[11:49]	Nyx Linden 	excellent! so next topic! :D
[11:49]	Nyx Linden 	"In viewer 2.6.6 (227422) [and the latest viewer I just downloaded], you have to assign one of the auto generated LOD as the physics shape before the upload button will show when using a rigged mesh. You can't use an external LOD at all. Is this a bug? Jira Listing: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/CTS-558? [Ashasekayi Ra] "
[11:50]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Maybe I'm having the problem because I do my uploading on Sandbox 15?
[11:50]	Nyx Linden 	yeah, that might be a bug - we're going to look into it :)
[11:50]	davep (runitai.linden) 	Asha: quite possible
[11:50]	Nyx Linden 	thanks for filing the jira!
[11:50]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	I'll try a different SIM next time then.
[11:50]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	You're welcome.
[11:50]	Nyx Linden 	I'll make sure we take a look at that one.
[11:51]	Drongle McMahon 	Does the sim intervene before you press the upload button??
[11:51]	davep (runitai.linden) 	Drongle: no
[11:51]	Nyx Linden 	no, but if the asset your viewer sends up isn't valid it won't complete the upload.
[11:51]	davep (runitai.linden) 	it's awfully passive aggressive about it
[11:51]	Ashiri Sands 	o.O (oO)
[11:51]	Nyx Linden 	we're working on making that case as smooth as possible, so still working on that :)
[11:52]	Drongle McMahon 	We need sim valium.
[11:52]	Bart Seymour 	/me two thumbs up
[11:52]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	lol
[11:52]	Nyx Linden 	can we move on? still have several topics left
[11:52]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	sure thing
[11:52]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "Could you recap in layman's terms when we should use prim versus convex hull physics type? [Ashasekayi Ra] "
[11:52]	davep (runitai.linden) 	layman's terms are tricky
[11:53]	Nyx Linden 	we're going to be looking at the terms we use and trying to get some better verbage in there before release.
[11:53]	Rusalka Writer 	Oh, good.
[11:53]	davep (runitai.linden) 	the gist of it is using "prim" as the physics shape type will use the convex decomposition OR physics shape mesh if no decomposition is available
[11:53]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	You use prim when you set a specific prom shape in the importer..yes?
[11:53]	davep (runitai.linden) 	using "convex hull" will always use the single convex hull
[11:54]	Nyx Linden 	so "convex hull" is a very simple representation, and "prim" is the more complex representation, depending on which one you provided
[11:54]	davep (runitai.linden) 	you can see the result by using develop->render metadata->physics shapes
[11:54]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	And a convex hull is the one you can't put an opening in for say a door for example?
[11:54]	Z (zslash.cyberstar) 	well that gives blackscreen for me
[11:54]	Nyx Linden 	correct
[11:55]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Z... you have to enable shadows then relog for it to work.
[11:55]	davep (runitai.linden) 	wow
[11:55]	davep (runitai.linden) 	that sucks
[11:55]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Ok. Thanks Nyx and Dave. I get the gist of it.
[11:55]	Z (zslash.cyberstar) 	ah ye i think i read about that bug
[11:55]	Rusalka Writer 	401.
[11:55]	Drongle McMahon 	I sometimes make a physics shape simpler than the default convex hull, as the latter can be expensive.
[11:55]	Nyx Linden 	fair enough :)
[11:56]	davep (runitai.linden) 	aye
[11:56]	davep (runitai.linden) 	auto generated is almost always worse than hand tuned
[11:56]	Nyx Linden 	does that clarify things?
[11:56]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Bringing in an external mesh for physics then simplifying it is good yes?
[11:56]	davep (runitai.linden) 	yes
[11:57]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Ok, I'm good to go then.
[11:57]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "Is anyone else getting a runtime error with the latest mesh viewer? "Runtime Error! R6034 An application has made an attempt to load the C runtime library incorrectly. Please contact the application's support team for more information," and then "The following Media Plugin has failed: media_plugin_webkit Please re-install the plugin or contact the vendor if you continue to experience problems." [Vivienne Daguerre] "
[11:57]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	not me
[11:57]	Z (zslash.cyberstar) 	not me
[11:57]	Bart Seymour 	nope
[11:57]	Nyx Linden 	what OS? windows 7?
[11:57]	Vivienne Daguerre 	Windows 7
[11:57]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	<- Win 7 64bit
[11:57]	Nyx Linden 	probably a side effect of the VS2010 changeover
[11:57]	Bart Seymour 	my pc: 12 core 3.6 ghz, dual GTX480 2GB Win7 64bit
[11:57]	Z (zslash.cyberstar) 	<- win7 64 bit
[11:57]	And all i got was this lousy DN (tankmaster.finesmith)	uninstall and reinstall the viwewer
[11:57]	Vivienne Daguerre 	I was getting repeated messages like that until I turned off auto play of media in pref
[11:58]	F L I P (flip.idlemind) 	Better question: Is there really still a "mesh viewer"? Thought it would all be one viewer by now
[11:58]	Vivienne Daguerre 	Windows 7 64 bit
[11:58]	Nyx Linden 	that probably reproduces on our latest main viewer betas as well
[11:58]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Ah, I never have media on.
[11:58]	Nyx Linden 	we have some lindens working on fixing that asap
[11:58]	And all i got was this lousy DN (tankmaster.finesmith)	mesh hasn't been merged intot he main viewer yet, flip
[11:58]	Drongle McMahon 	Oh no. That webkit one sounds like the old one whre you had to set slplugin to win95 compatability mode.
[11:59]	And all i got was this lousy DN (tankmaster.finesmith)	webkit is the web browser, which search uses, not media
[11:59]	Vivienne Daguerre 	I will try unstalling it and reinstalling
[11:59]	Vivienne Daguerre 	it started with the build of Saturday
[12:00]	Nyx Linden 	try an older version for now, we'll try to get it fixed when we can
[12:00]	Vivienne Daguerre 	I downloaded today's build, and the problem is still there
[12:00]	Vivienne Daguerre 	ok, just wanted to be sure you are aware of it
[12:00]	Vivienne Daguerre 	but odd that no-one else is seeing it
[12:00]	Nyx Linden 	or remove any --set-language options in your shortcuts
[12:00]	Vivienne Daguerre 	I use default language
[12:00]	Ranya Palmer 	im still on the last build
[12:00]	Vivienne Daguerre 	just left it at that
[12:01]	draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam) 	vivienne do you windows update ever? there might be some stuff you don't have
[12:01]	Bart Seymour 	already did, hate this viewer 2 layout enough
[12:01]	Bart Seymour 	:-p
[12:01]	Nyx Linden 	we're out of time, last topic: "Any progress on costs of any kind? [Drongle] "
[12:01]	Drongle McMahon 	You can forget my last question, Nyx, as you already dealt with costs.
[12:01]	Vivienne Daguerre 	my computer is set to automatically do windows updates every night
[12:01]	Nyx Linden 	we're going to be working on this soon I hope :)
[12:01]	Nyx Linden 	we'll let you guys know!
[12:01]	Rusalka Writer 	Release candidate build list is where now?
[12:02]	Bart Seymour 	Thank you Nyx, i really appreciate all the work the Lindens are doing.
[12:02]	Nyx Linden 	thanks everyone for coming!
[12:02]	Prep Linden 	later folks
[12:02]	draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam) 	should be http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/mesh-development/latest.html no?
[12:02]	Nyx Linden 	we have another meeting to run off to
[12:02]	Drongle McMahon 	Yes. Good luck with finishing the merge stuff.
[12:02]	Nyx Linden 	I'll post a transcript later today
[12:02]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Thanks Lindens
[12:02]	Bart Seymour 	ok
[12:02]	Bart Seymour 	thanks
[12:02]	Rusalka Writer 	Mahalo!
[12:02]	Sebastean Steamweaver 	Thank you for the office hours
[12:02]	And all i got was this lousy DN (tankmaster.finesmith)	tc „ã°
[12:02]	Ranya Palmer 	thank you for all your hard work and still having time to see us :)
[12:02]	davep (runitai.linden) 	thanks guys
[12:02]	Rusalka Writer 	Good meeting today.
[12:03]	draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam) 	thanks lindens
[12:03]	JR4201 Kruyschek 	i don`t understand a lot of what is said here but i liked this meeting, gave me a good feeling :)
[12:03]	Ashiri Sands 	tc&thx (& thx tc)
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