Beta Server Office Hours/Minutes/2011-01-20

Category:Beta Server Office Hours - Minutes
This meeting was held on January 20th, 2011
= Agenda =
* We are off for Monday. Martin Luther King Day.
== Updates ==
* Teen Grid getting updated today.
* Main Channel
** "Simulator Shutdown" project from LeTigre
** http://blogs.secondlife.com/community/technology/release/blog/2011/01/14/deploys-for-the-week-of-2011-01-17
* Magnum
** Contained the centrals update code.
** https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Beta/Magnum
* LeTigre
** Viewer Metrics project
** https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Beta/LeTigre
* Blue Steel
** Back to the encroachment code.
*** https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Parcel_encroachment
** https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Beta/BlueSteel
* Simon's Interest List Project.
== Upcoming Stuff ==
* Havok 2k10
** Anyone check it out?
** https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Havok_2k10_Beta_Home
* Monty is breaking things
** He wants you to be warned.
** non-texture assets related.
= Transcript =
Transcript of Oskar Linden's Beta Server Office Hour for January 20th, 2011:
* [15:02] Amilia Zabaleta: hello Oskar!
* [15:02] Oskar Linden: hey guys
* [15:02] Latif Khalifa: hello all
* [15:03] Amilia Zabaleta: Hello everyone!
* [15:03] Rickk Turbo: hello
* [15:03] Latif Khalifa: what thing is making that noise
* [15:03] RedMokum Bravin: Hiya
* [15:03] xMESHx: huhu: 
* [15:03] sensory Hax: hello oskar
* [15:03] Sigma Avro: coucou !
* [15:03] Rickk Turbo: noise?
* [15:03] RedMokum Bravin: The same noise as last week, yes.
* [15:03] Rickk Turbo: its them planes behind us
* [15:03] Oskar Linden: rickk's mic is on
* [15:03] Rickk Turbo: oh crap it is?
* [15:03] Latif Khalifa: no sounds like car engine on idle
* [15:03] Oskar Linden: there we go
* [15:04] Rickk Turbo: Lattif it's behind us
* [15:04] Ima Mechanique: hi Osklar, Maestro
* [15:04] Oskar Linden: sorry I'm late
* [15:04] Rickk Turbo: the 3 areoplanes
* [15:04] Oskar Linden: it's been a really busy day
* [15:04] Oskar Linden: here is the agenda link
* [15:04] Oskar Linden: 
* [15:04] Rickk Turbo: any f' ups?
* [15:04] Rickk Turbo: :)
* [15:04] Oskar Linden: as many of you know today is the day when we merge the grids
* [15:04] Jonathan Yap: I did not know, woo hoo
* [15:05] Oskar Linden: teens become adults and adults get to act like kids
* [15:05] Rickk Turbo: merge?
* [15:05] Rickk Turbo: u mean TG?
* [15:05] Oskar Linden: yes
* [15:05] Thomas Shikami: teens become adults?
* [15:05] Rickk Turbo: regions or users
* [15:05] Oskar Linden: both
* [15:05] Rickk Turbo: oh
* [15:05] Oskar Linden: this is how it's going down
* [15:05] Oskar Linden: 16 and 17 year olds will get a free pass to the MG
* [15:05] Oskar Linden: 15 and under will have their accounts closed
* [15:05] Rickk Turbo: haha
* [15:06] Oskar Linden: all TG regions will be added to the Main Grid
* [15:06] Thomas Shikami: Ohh, I thought theirs would be on hold
* [15:06] Oskar Linden: 16 and 17 yo accounts will be stuck in G mode
* [15:06] Rickk Turbo: do we have access to these regions?
* [15:06] Oskar Linden: well on hold
* [15:06] Oskar Linden: yes
* [15:06] Rickk Turbo: k
* [15:06] Latif Khalifa: ah it's the airplanes in ahern behind
* [15:06] Oskar Linden: a nightly script will check their dob
* [15:07] Oskar Linden: everyone smile and say cheese. simon is watching you from the command line on this server
* [15:07] Bronson Blackadder: cheeeese
* [15:07] Amilia Zabaleta: camembert
* [15:07] Latif Khalifa: hey Simon ;)
* [15:07] Oskar Linden: the process of upgrading and merging the grids is kinda complicated
* [15:07] Simon Linden: Howdy :)
* [15:07] Oskar Linden: we've been doing some dry runs out on Durga
* [15:07] Rickk Turbo: weird i've muted owner and it still makes a sound
* [15:07] Gooden Uggla: hola simon
* [15:08] Oskar Linden: I went to the TG and they were already protesting
* [15:08] Latif Khalifa: I've muted individual objects ow
* [15:08] Oskar Linden: signs and everything
* [15:08] Latif Khalifa: heh
* [15:08] Simon Linden: Should be fewer crashed airplanes now
* [15:08] Amilia Zabaleta: hurray for the young!
* [15:08] Gooden Uggla: good for them , they'll fit right in
* [15:08] Oskar Linden: from a support and a QA pov it really helps having a simplified grid
* [15:08] Latif Khalifa: Simon, still two more :)
* [15:08] Oskar Linden: so that was my day
* [15:09] Sigma Avro: that is beta for, simpler
* [15:09] Thomas Shikami: I thought the grid was the same almost, except for a flag on the accounts, that prevents reading their profiles from logins that aren't god or same
* [15:09] Oskar Linden: I'm reconvening after this meeting to look over the plan once more before we flip the switch this afternoon
* [15:09] Gooden Uggla: i'm sure the lawyers will appreciate the job security too
* [15:09] Rickk Turbo: any news on group chats yet?
* [15:09] Ima Mechanique: Oskar, Protesting the merge ot you going to TG?
* [15:09] Thomas Shikami: and blocking IMs going from MG -> TG, but not the other way round
* [15:09] Oskar Linden: Rickk, you will be the FIRST to know when group chat fixes reach beta
* [15:09] Rickk Turbo: ok cool
* [15:10] TankMaster Finesmith: what fixes?
* [15:10] Simon Linden: gawd, I just love abusing my Linden superpowers :)
* [15:10] Oskar Linden: heh
* [15:10] Rickk Turbo: did u return them Simon?
* [15:10] Oskar Linden: what now simon?
* [15:10] Latif Khalifa: Simon, I love peace in my head, thank you
* [15:10] Simon Linden: Yes, they're returned
* [15:10] Jonathan Yap: The chat changes are in here 
* [15:10] Oskar Linden: I abuse my powers more on aditi than on agni
* [15:10] Simon Linden: All quiet now?
* [15:10] Gooden Uggla: excellent, thanks simon
* [15:11] Gooden Uggla: now about the area here... abuse away!
* [15:11] Oskar Linden: it might be time for a 2011 redesign of this platform
* [15:12] Oskar Linden: so yeah, not a real heavy week from a release pov for server code
* [15:12] Oskar Linden: because of the issues with the prim encroachment issues last week it put us a tad behind
* [15:12] Oskar Linden: we promoted the faster sim shutdown code this week
* [15:12] Latif Khalifa: Any of you guys involved with the group chat setup?
* [15:12] Oskar Linden: I think the roll went about 30% faster
* [15:12] Oskar Linden: that's nice
* [15:12] Oskar Linden: I am not Latif
* [15:12] Latif Khalifa: the new one i mean
* [15:13] Oskar Linden: I will be once it reaches aditi
* [15:13] Gooden Uggla: oskar is there still an error at shutdown that causes performance problemns?
* [15:13] Gooden Uggla: not that we don't love speed...
* [15:13] Simon Linden: It wasn't really an error
* [15:13] Oskar Linden: you tell me :-)
* [15:13] Simon Linden: The code was doing a lot of cleanup, deleting internal objects, releasing memory, etc, and this was taking some time
* [15:13] Gooden Uggla: i left my main sim intentionally un-restarted
* [15:13] Oskar Linden: oh, I misunderstood your question
* [15:13] Gooden Uggla: seems ok actually
* [15:14] Oskar Linden: that's good
* [15:14] Simon Linden: It actually didn't need to do all that, because the OS would take care of it all when the simulator process stopeed
* [15:14] Simon Linden: err, stopped
* [15:14] Latif Khalifa: yeah
* [15:14] Latif Khalifa: the ultimte cleanup :)
* [15:14] Gooden Uggla: simon, there was a huge performance hit after release restarts until the sim was restarted again
* [15:15] Oskar Linden: I've brought that up in some of our release huddles
* [15:15] Simon Linden: Not sure what you mean ... it was slow the first time it started, then fast the 2nd?
* [15:15] Gooden Uggla: that's what i referred to
* [15:15] Gooden Uggla: sort of
* [15:15] Oskar Linden: but it seems better this time from your POV Gooden?
* [15:15] Gooden Uggla: yes, it's improved on mainland and estate
* [15:16] Oskar Linden: you described better behaviour once new sim code had a chance to do a shutdown and restart on its own coe
* [15:16] Oskar Linden: code
* [15:16] Gooden Uggla: i believe so, yes
* [15:16] Oskar Linden: as opposed to doing a shutdown on old code, upgrade to new code, then a startup on new code
* [15:16] Oskar Linden: keep an eye on it for me gooden
* [15:16] Oskar Linden: thanks
* [15:16] Sigma Avro: means start twice
* [15:17] Gooden Uggla: will do
* [15:17] Oskar Linden: Magnum kept the same code it had with the sim shutdown code from trunk merged in
* [15:17] Gooden Uggla: tonight i'll restart regions and see what they do - if prformance stays the same... we'll know
* [15:17] Oskar Linden: LeTigre has the viewer metrics code
* [15:17] Oskar Linden: whcih I do not know much about
* [15:18] Kadah Coba: Yeah, I was wondering what that was
* [15:18] Oskar Linden: simon, maestro? do you have any more specifics
* [15:18] Simon Linden: There's usually a performance boost whenever a region is restared, but it's less noticible if it hasn't been running for a while
* [15:18] Oskar Linden: besides: LeTigre is getting new project, "Viewer Metrics." This is intended to help us get better viewer-side metrics, letting us know if changes we make actually improve the user experience.
* [15:18] Thomas Shikami: ohh, for that, just listen to the user
* [15:19] Sigma Avro: interesting, but not new
* [15:19] ac14 Hutson: loool
* [15:19] Gooden Uggla: simon that's why i waited 2 days, and the test sim is less scripted and busy than before
* [15:19] TankMaster Finesmith: that takes work
* [15:19] Maestro Linden: I believe viewer metrics also requires a new viewer to take advantage of it.. I don't think 2.5beta or anything has that yet...
* [15:19] Sigma Avro: can we help on metorcs ?
* [15:19] Sigma Avro: *metrics
* [15:19] Kadah Coba: More metrics than it already sends?
* [15:19] Oskar Linden: nice. so we have server code to take metrics for a product no one has
* [15:19] Oskar Linden: :-)
* [15:19] Rickk Turbo: lol
* [15:19] TankMaster Finesmith: XD
* [15:20] Oskar Linden: I see a 100% successful data grab on that one
* [15:20] Rickk Turbo: so how do they know it works?
* [15:20] Oskar Linden: I guess they just know
* [15:20] Thomas Shikami: as long as the server doesn't mess up with that code inside... hehe
* [15:20] Sigma Avro: idepends on systems of units :)
* [15:20] Simon Linden: FWIW I just checked a report we have on average sim FPS based on versions, and the current Magnum RC is looking good. None of the recent versions shows a significant change
* [15:21] Simon Linden: ... but definitely let us know if you see otherwise with restarts
* [15:21] Gooden Uggla: good news
* [15:21] Oskar Linden: but magnum is trunk right?
* [15:21] Latif Khalifa: heh if you want bad performance, i can send you to a couple of sims with 30 seconds freezes, or as you guys love to call them "lag events" ;)
* [15:21] Jonathan Yap: Key West Island?
* [15:22] Sigma Avro: unless secret, in what consist improvement of metircs ?
* [15:22] Oskar Linden: I don't know Sigma
* [15:22] Latif Khalifa: well any truly busy place with about 4 days of uptime
* [15:22] Oskar Linden: BlueSteel has attempt 2 with the prim encroachment code
* [15:22] Gooden Uggla: may the gods help us
* [15:23] Oskar Linden: :-)
* [15:23] Latif Khalifa: haha
* [15:23] Homeless: how: do we test encroachment on mainland?
* [15:23] Oskar Linden: as long as no one figures out how to return all mainland prims I think we'll be ok
* [15:23] Latif Khalifa: you don't
* [15:23] Sigma Avro: would not like having to test this on mainland
* [15:23] TankMaster Finesmith: try deleting everything
* [15:23] Oskar Linden: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Parcel_encroachment
* [15:23] Kadah Coba: It has to be enabled by the sim owner, which mainland doesn't have.
* [15:24] Oskar Linden: that shows how to enable it
* [15:24] Gooden Uggla: have a neighbor rezz something with the root prim on his side but chaild prims hanging onto your parcel
* [15:24] Gooden Uggla: clild*
* [15:24] Homeless: I: sont have a sim.. oh well
* [15:24] Homeless: dont: 
* [15:24] Oskar Linden: sorry homeless
* [15:24] Oskar Linden: you'd have to change your name if you did
* [15:24] Sigma Avro: well, I have put to votes for residents, they do not like the feature, lol
* [15:24] Homeless: change: my name?
* [15:24] Gooden Uggla: wait, how many estate sims are on blue steel?
* [15:24] Oskar Linden: if you own a region you are no longer homeless
* [15:25] xMESHx: lol: 
* [15:25] Homeless: hahaha: well I do own land
* [15:25] Homeless: my: names an oxymoron
* [15:25] Oskar Linden: I think blue steel has a small percentage of private estate
* [15:25] Oskar Linden: s
* [15:25] Gooden Uggla: as are we all...
* [15:25] Oskar Linden: that's what I got for updates this week.
* [15:25] Gooden Uggla: oskar... that's just asking to get bit on the ass again...
* [15:26] Oskar Linden: Oh, Rodvik Linden started this week
* [15:26] Oskar Linden: he's still getting up to speed
* [15:26] Maestro Linden: yeah, I see a few dozen Bluesteel Regions on private estates
* [15:26] Rickk Turbo: Oskar you mentioned the other week you were going to copy regions from the main grid to aditi
* [15:26] TankMaster Finesmith: whats his role going to be?
* [15:26] Rickk Turbo: any news on this?
* [15:26] Oskar Linden: Alexa Linden usually is the one to set up avatars and regions for the executives
* [15:26] Oskar Linden: Rodvik is the new CEO
* [15:26] Gooden Uggla: tank that's the new CEO
* [15:26] Oskar Linden: Rod Humble
* [15:26] TankMaster Finesmith: ahh ok
* [15:26] Gooden Uggla: the guy who has to undo all the stupid
* [15:27] Oskar Linden: so Alexa was going to get things all set up for him and he was like, just give me the blank region I want to make stuff for myself
* [15:27] Oskar Linden: I see that as a good sign
* [15:27] Sigma Avro: haha
* [15:27] Jonathan Yap: Does he have a bear? :P
* [15:27] Latif Khalifa: He has impressive resume, hope he does undo the stupid :P
* [15:27] Rickk Turbo: any more planned job cuts this year?
* [15:27] Oskar Linden: give him time
* [15:27] Rickk Turbo: :)
* [15:27] Gooden Uggla: that's a very good sign
* [15:27] Oskar Linden: I have no clue about job cuts. even if I did I couldn't detail them.
* [15:27] Rickk Turbo: ok
* [15:28] Rickk Turbo: but LL have stablised?
* [15:28] Oskar Linden: we'll see
* [15:28] Rickk Turbo: k
* [15:28] Oskar Linden: it will be an interesting year
* [15:28] Oskar Linden: one way or the other
* [15:28] Rickk Turbo: indeed
* [15:28] Simon Linden: we can't give out financial info, but everyone obviously would like to avoid layoffs :)
* [15:28] Oskar Linden: this place is never boring. that's for sure
* [15:28] Kallista Destiny: Sorry that I'm late
* [15:28] Sigma Avro: any news about sim rezing speed stuff of previous week ?
* [15:28] Gooden Uggla: no doubt oskar
* [15:28] Oskar Linden: not sure what you mean
* [15:29] Gooden Uggla: threaded rezz?
* [15:29] TankMaster Finesmith: the sending compresed data to the viewer?
* [15:29] Latif Khalifa: If I had one wish for Rodvik would be to udo the search changes, they're killing the economy and with it LL itself.
* [15:29] Sigma Avro: yes, as gooden said
* [15:29] Oskar Linden: I'll put a postit on his monitor
* [15:29] Oskar Linden: Latif sez fix search
* [15:29] Rickk Turbo: lol
* [15:29] Maestro Linden: Andrew's working on the threaded rez bug today :)
* [15:29] Thomas Shikami: for example, it isn't possible to search for mainland parcels that are for sale with new search
* [15:29] Latif Khalifa: heh
* [15:29] Kallista Destiny: Yeah!!!!!!!
* [15:30] Gooden Uggla: thanks maestro
* [15:30] Oskar Linden: the Search team is it's own monster
* [15:30] Latif Khalifa: If you listened to more of Latif's proposal, you wouldn't be cutting down stuff in the firs place ;)
* [15:30] Oskar Linden: I know latif
* [15:30] Latif Khalifa: staff*
* [15:30] Gooden Uggla: oskar... that's probably the kindest i've heard them described in almost a year
* [15:30] Oskar Linden: I don't envy them
* [15:31] Oskar Linden: but it is fun to overhear them yelling dirty words to each other in the office
* [15:31] Oskar Linden: is ****** a banned word?
* [15:31] Oskar Linden: why is ******* on the list?
* [15:31] Oskar Linden: what ever happened to good ol' *******?
* [15:31] Gooden Uggla: it's probably nothing compared to what we call them :)
* [15:31] xMESHx: lol: 
* [15:31] Gooden Uggla: but i'd like to hear it
* [15:31] Thomas Shikami: is there anything new on the behaviour of (float)some_string?
* [15:32] Object: Hello,: Avatar!
* [15:32] Sigma Avro: researches look for themselves often, lol
* [15:32] Latif Khalifa: well they're just incopetent. one week i'm number 1 in search, the next week i'm not in search at all. sounds like the whole thing is held together by rubber band and chewing gum
* [15:32] Object: 0.000000: 
* [15:32] Thomas Shikami: especially about (float)"Inf"
* [15:32] Maestro Linden: (string)((float) "Hello, Avatar!") -> 0.000000
* [15:32] Oskar Linden: rubber banded chewing gum(tm) (by google)
* [15:33] Sigma Avro: normal , what is the point ?
* [15:33] Thomas Shikami: r
* [15:33] TankMaster Finesmith: the new webkit 4.7.1 seems to be working well, it fixed the showcase bug with sim that have a space in them
* [15:33] Thomas Shikami: there were plans to have casting the string "Inf" to float throw a math error halting the script
* [15:33] TankMaster Finesmith: now if only there was a linux version for it... :P
* [15:33] Maestro Linden: I haven't heard about those plans being executed
* [15:34] Maestro Linden: ^ Thomas
* [15:34] Thomas Shikami: cause, if that behaviour is implemented, it's exploitable
* [15:34] Latif Khalifa: TankMaster, real men compile their own webkit (j/k isn't it in bitbucket?)
* [15:34] Master Starship: Are you tank real men compile their own webkit jk?
* [15:34] Latif Khalifa: lool
* [15:34] Gooden Uggla: oskar, if it was the google doing it, 2 words surrounded by "parentheses" would return properly - they don't, it's something the lab did to it
* [15:35] Thomas Shikami: think of listener event and a malicious object saying Inf on the right channel
* [15:35] Oskar Linden: it's not that simple
* [15:35] TankMaster Finesmith: im talking about the LL webkit thats in 2.5
* [15:35] Oskar Linden: wroking on anything in the search project is quote tedious
* [15:35] Oskar Linden: I don't envy them
* [15:35] Oskar Linden: moving along...
* [15:36] Oskar Linden: Maestro. anything new coming up you want to talk about?
* [15:36] Latif Khalifa: https://bitbucket.org/lindenlab/llqtwebkit
* [15:36] Maestro Linden: I suppose.. there have been exploits in the past that used (float)"Inf" in physics calls, as well..
* [15:36] Oskar Linden: before we hear about simons project
* [15:36] TankMaster Finesmith: https://bitbucket.org/lindenlab/viewer-development/changeset/5d69e36a53ee
* [15:36] Thomas Shikami: Yep, it'd be okay of (float)"Inf" would return 0.0000
* [15:36] TankMaster Finesmith: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/storm-808
* [15:36] [[User:JIRA-helper: [#STORM-808|JIRA-helper: [#STORM-808]]: 
* [15:37] Thomas Shikami: but if it causes a Math Error, it can be exploited to crash scripts
* [15:37] Simon Linden: So (float) (any string) should be 0.0 always?
* [15:37] Thomas Shikami: (float)"1" should be 1.0 still
* [15:37] Maestro Linden: well, (float)"5.0" should be 5.0000
* [15:37] Simon Linden: doh, right, ... any non-numeric string
* [15:37] Rickk Turbo: can't you have something like "ON MATH ERROR set value = 0" ?
* [15:37] Thomas Shikami: as well as (float)" 1.2"
* [15:37] Sigma Avro: would asy it is fine so
* [15:37] Maestro Linden: NaN and Inf are 2 'evil' strings I can think of
* [15:38] Latif Khalifa: well new webkit or not, it's still dogslow, and now we have to wait for the webkit to spin up to see a profile
* [15:38] Thomas Shikami: and about the physics exploits, the ll... functions should check the floats, vectors and rotations for NaN and Inf values
* [15:38] Maestro Linden: maybe "-Inf" needs to be taken care of too, heh
* [15:38] Kallista Destiny: it should validate the string as being all 0-9. or the special case INF and NaN which both have IEEE values
* [15:38] Simon Linden: Thomas - definitely true. If you know of ones that don't, let us know
* [15:38] Rickk Turbo: btw is there anyway to supress scripted errors so other users dont see them?
* [15:39] Latif Khalifa: isn't there -Zereo +Zero or some weirdness in that spec?
* [15:39] Thomas Shikami: That'd be a nice thing, like a new event called script_error
* [15:39] Rickk Turbo: create an event capture for errors
* [15:39] Rickk Turbo: :)
* [15:39] Homeless: error: trapping would be nice
* [15:39] Latif Khalifa: c# has try {}catch {], oh wait...
* [15:39] Kallista Destiny: Yeah because to the 1's complemement machines
* [15:39] Maestro Linden: Rickk: I think that's "ShowScriptErrors" = False in debug settings.. that's a viewer side setting though
* [15:39] Simon Linden: I'm not sure we can keep running the script if it hits an error condition ... that's pretty much the point of stopping it
* [15:40] Latif Khalifa: which reminds me, when is kelly coming back :)
* [15:40] Rickk Turbo: oh
* [15:40] Thomas Shikami: behaviour could be like, on a script error, insert the script_error event as the first event to be executed next in the same script. Should script_error event throw an error, do legacy error behaviour and halt the script
* [15:40] Rickk Turbo: i'll had to look into that
* [15:40] Simon Linden: Kelly is back in Feb., I'm not sure of the exact date
* [15:40] Simon Linden: He'll spend the first week trying to read emails....
* [15:40] Kallista Destiny: and where do you pick after the script_error() event?
* [15:41] Latif Khalifa: cool :) we do need that mono-2.6.7 to roll out :)
* [15:41] Oskar Linden: I think kelly is going to have a very busy year
* [15:41] Thomas Shikami: well, the script would halt after the event
* [15:41] Simon Linden: yeah, I'd really like to see the slow-mono-rez bug finally fixed
* [15:41] Gooden Uggla: yes please
* [15:41] Thomas Shikami: though, the event could restart the script if needed or change the state
* [15:41] Kallista Destiny: We'd also like to see the temp-rez issue addressed, please..
* [15:42] Kallista Destiny: Trur, although one would want to have a limit on restartes....
* [15:42] Rickk Turbo: doesn't fixing mono rezzing mean updating the kernel?
* [15:42] Gooden Uggla: mainland needs to be restarted more, not less
* [15:43] Kallista Destiny: because an error in start() gould lead to a hard interrupt loop
* [15:43] Oskar Linden: Simon you wanna talk about your interest list test?
* [15:43] Maestro Linden: hm maybe we should save that for the very end?
* [15:43] Oskar Linden: I don't have anything else that I need to chat about
* [15:43] Simon Linden: sure ... earlier I grabbed some performance data while folks were sitting around
* [15:43] Thomas Shikami: well, there are candidates for that. state_entry and state_exit should have legacy behaviour always as well
* [15:43] Maestro Linden: I have something I want to ask about
* [15:43] Oskar Linden: go for it
* [15:44] Maestro Linden: So I was looking at https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-6696
* [15:44] [[User:JIRA-helper: [#SVC-6696|JIRA-helper: [#SVC-6696]]: 
* [15:44] Simon Linden: I'd like (not yet, when I say 'begin') everyone to move around on the sim a lot
* [15:44] Maestro Linden: and I looked up the actual rules which determine if a script is allowed to run in a given parcel
* [15:44] Maestro Linden: the rules are a bit more complicated than I would've guessed
* [15:44] Simon Linden: I'll grab data on performance and it should give us a better idea how things look on a busy simulator with the new code
* [15:45] Maestro Linden: but one of the rules seems a little flaky to me,
* [15:45] Oskar Linden: which rule is that?
* [15:45] Maestro Linden: if a parcel is set to (or owned by) a group,
* [15:45] Maestro Linden: then any script in a group member's attachment can always run
* [15:45] Thomas Shikami: that rule is intended to check the cached values
* [15:45] Thomas Shikami: don't touch that
* [15:45] Maestro Linden: even if group members are not allowed to run scripts via the parcel rules
* [15:46] Gooden Uggla: hmmm... that's odd
* [15:46] Kallista Destiny: Ohhhh that is strange indeed
* [15:46] Thomas Shikami: that seems okay
* [15:46] Thomas Shikami: it's an attachment
* [15:46] Sigma Avro: well, memeber of a group should wear the tag of group , or not ?
* [15:46] xMESHx: i: have to go, cu next time folk, take care :o)
* [15:46] Maestro Linden: well, non-members wouldn't be able to run scripts in their attachments, in that case
* [15:46] Kallista Destiny: OK....
* [15:47] Thomas Shikami: attachement's group membership is flaky, you can't change it
* [15:47] Thomas Shikami: so, attachment's behaviour should rely on the wearers group membership
* [15:47] Maestro Linden: well, what if the rule said...
* [15:47] Sigma Avro: in any case, some, attachements always run...
* [15:47] Maestro Linden: If the script is in an attachment AND the attachment's owner is a member of the group the parcel is set to AND the parcel has 'Run Scripts: Group' enabled, then allow the script to run
* [15:47] Kallista Destiny: rught movement controls
* [15:47] Maestro Linden: (that last claus is my 2cents)
* [15:47] Thomas Shikami: and since it's hard to find out, if the group member has ownership privileges for objects on the parcel, just allow scripts if group member
* [15:48] Maestro Linden: requiring 'Run Scripts: Group' to be enabled
* [15:48] Thomas Shikami: well, not for group owned parcels
* [15:48] Sigma Avro: for, me , seems natural that member of group can run script in the group land
* [15:48] Kallista Destiny: I think I agree, but that is going to cause a LOT of help causes until everyone gets that sorted out.
* [15:48] Thomas Shikami: for parcels set to group, okay. But not deededs
* [15:49] Latif Khalifa: there are so many bugs i that code. like requiring owner to be online for scripts to run on group owned land where sripts are only enabled via group role
* [15:49] Gooden Uggla: as someone with a LOT of group owned parcels, that would be fine
* [15:49] Gooden Uggla: and might actually stop nonsense and improve performance
* [15:49] Thomas Shikami: That behaviour is intended afaik Latif
* [15:49] Latif Khalifa: no it's not
* [15:49] Latif Khalifa: it's a bug
* [15:49] Maestro Linden: yeah Latif, I saw that bug reemerge in Jira recently. I'm not sure if there's a fundamental reason for that bug. there might be
* [15:49] Thomas Shikami: it's a feature
* [15:50] Thomas Shikami: someone messed with that once, it broke things
* [15:50] Kallista Destiny: on a seperate issue.... what is the difference between deeded and group owned land?
* [15:50] Thomas Shikami: deeded is group owned land
* [15:50] Thomas Shikami: the other is land set to a group, but owned by an account
* [15:50] Latif Khalifa: it's not a feature lol. makes 0 sense to run other peoples scripts depending on when someone is online
* [15:50] Maestro Linden: yep, deeded=group owned
* [15:50] Kadah Coba: There are not bugs, only unintended features.
* [15:50] Kadah Coba: no*
* [15:51] Kallista Destiny: OK... I see the difference
* [15:51] Thomas Shikami: the thing is, permissions to run scripts is checked on cached values, those are only available if the script owner is connected to the sim. That's why scripts only run, when the owner is there and the object is not set to the group to run there
* [15:51] Maestro Linden: well, it might hurt the DB if each scripted rez required a DB lookup to see if the agent has a certain group ability.. I think that may be the reason why it doesn't work properly when the agent is offline. Somebody (a dev) should check it out to verify that's the case, though.
* [15:51] Gooden Uggla: are you sure you're differentiating between "set to group" and "deeded to grouP"?>
* [15:52] Thomas Shikami: it's a performance issue on a configuration, that shouldn't happen anyways
* [15:52] Maestro Linden: talking about the rules, gooden?
* [15:52] Gooden Uggla: yes
* [15:52] Thomas Shikami: if the object is set to group the land is set to, and group members are allowed to run scripts, then the object's scripts run regardless of the owner being in the sim or not
* [15:53] Gooden Uggla: they're supposed to be 2 different things
* [15:53] Maestro Linden: yeah, the rules deal with 'set to' mostly. except that the parcel owner is the group when the parcel is 'deeded', and in that case the parcel must be set to the group also
* [15:53] Gooden Uggla: owner land set to a group and group land
* [15:54] Maestro Linden: I was also surprised that the 'allow damage' flag in a region overrides parcel script rules
* [15:54] Sigma Avro: ?
* [15:54] Gooden Uggla: estate owners always win
* [15:54] Kallista Destiny: really? how strange
* [15:54] Gooden Uggla: that makes perfect sense
* [15:55] Thomas Shikami: okay, that is a new one to me. But if there is damage allowed and scripts may not run, it's a problem
* [15:55] Thomas Shikami: bullets wouldn't work in that case
* [15:55] Gooden Uggla: because it works the other way too, "no pushing" can be enforced at the estate level
* [15:55] Jonathan Yap: The problem is the land owner did not configure things correctly
* [15:55] Kallista Destiny: well damage won't occur
* [15:55] RedMokum Bravin: You can still drop dead without bullets.
* [15:55] Sigma Avro: how can damege be controled by script ? I missed somthing
* [15:56] Maestro Linden: llSetDamage(), I think it is..
* [15:56] Gooden Uggla: combat HUDs
* [15:56] Sigma Avro: ah, yes, tur, sorry
* [15:56] Thomas Shikami: and that damage is a property of the script itself, not the object
* [15:56] Thomas Shikami: you can try that, set llSetDamage() and to a llRemoveInventory(llGetScriptName()) later. The damage is gone then
* [15:56] Oskar Linden: ok guys. with the few minutes we have left let's help simon with his test
* [15:57] Rickk Turbo: test?
* [15:57] Jonathan Yap: walk, fly, or?
* [15:57] Rickk Turbo: burp on mic
* [15:57] Rickk Turbo: :p
* [15:57] Kallista Destiny: no that is different, that is pseudo damage Huds and combat metere keep track of damage becasue the weapons chatter at them
* [15:57] Maestro Linden: yeah, let's do that
* [15:57] Simon Linden: Right, the idea is to move a lot so there are lots of updates sent to your viewer
* [15:57] Latif Khalifa: the one about owner having to be online bites many people, and causes some support for the merchants selling scripted objects, so if you were to look into those rules I would vote for that one :)
* [15:57] Jonathan Yap: Is camming around good enough?
* [15:57] Oskar Linden: ok. so when simon gives the word we move ar ound a lot
* [15:57] Oskar Linden: but stay in region
* [15:57] Simon Linden: So let's begin ... I'll yell 'stop'in a few minutes
* [15:57] Simon Linden: shouts: begin
* [15:58] Latif Khalifa: Jonathan, no
* [15:58] Oskar Linden: and go!
* [16:00] Rickk Turbo: ouch
* [16:00] Jonathan Yap: I was getting a few Agent ID messages when I tried to cross out of this region
* [16:00] Simon Linden: Thanks everyone ... that will give me some useful data
* [16:00] Oskar LindenOskar: Linden is back from his walkabout
* [16:00] Latif Khalifa: Simon, didn't notice lag client side (except for rendering this many avis)
* [16:00] Simon Linden: yeah, I got two of those too
* [16:01] No room: to sit here, try another spot.
* [16:01] Master Starship: no lag here but no graphics ethor
* [16:01] Oskar Linden: great meetings guys. thanks gor coming
* [16:01] Simon Linden: I'm looking at the code that sends updates, so this will give me some data on where it spends the most time
* [16:01] Jonathan Yap: Thank you Simon and Oskar
* [16:01] TankMaster Finesmith: Thanks for the meeting, oskar
* [16:01] Oskar Linden: alright I am logging off
* [16:01] Kallista Destiny: thank you
* [16:01] Latif Khalifa: thank you for your time guys :)
* [16:01] Rickk Turbo: bye
* [16:01] Simon Linden: THanks everyone
* [16:01] Ima Mechanique: night all