User Experience Interest Group/Transcripts/2009-09-10

== Topic ==
User Experience Interest Group Discussion for September 10, 2009.
Topic: Open Topic.
== Summary ==
No summary is yet available for this meeting. Please edit this page to add one.
== Links ==
* - 8 prototype strings for the viewer
* OpenSim Megaregions
* - Snowglobe1.1.0.2565 : most textures don't load logged on an OpenSim
== Transcript ==
[15:08]	Charlette Proto: 	just a thought about Imp features, could we have a voting system on Wiki with a list of features other viewers have and let out users request for thm to be integrated in IMP code
[15:09]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Like the one Opensim does?
[15:10]	Charlette Proto: 	yes kind of Meeerkat have a vote on emphases in development eg speed stability extra features etc which also is a good idea
[15:12]	Charlette Proto: 	BTW does anyone have an idea why Meerkat and OpenLife viewers go active (exe activity) when snoglobe etc is started?
[15:12]	McCabe Maxsted: 	not a clue
[15:12]	McCabe Maxsted: 	and I like that idea
[15:12]	McCabe Maxsted: 	it'd be nice to have people letting us know about features they like
[15:13]	Charlette Proto: 	the voiting would be a nice (simple) way to get an idea of what direction should Imp go
[15:14]	Charlette Proto: 	yeah especially since there are so many people using alt viewers no (eg Emerald)
[15:14]	Jacek Antonelli: 	JIRA-type voting, or like a multiple choice poll?
[15:15]	Charlette Proto: 	simpler, maybe 10 or more top features requested so far with tickboxes to vote from one list (multiple ticks perhaps)
[15:15]	Charlette Proto: 	that is the second option jacek
[15:15]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Ah
[15:16]	Jacek Antonelli: 	(Hrmm. I wish the open source meeting was within shouting distance so I could shout at them to wrap it up already. >_>)
[15:16]	Charlette Proto: 	not sure if this would be technically easy to add to the Wiki
[15:16]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hehe
[15:16]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe yeah, sure we could wake them up
[15:16]	McCabe Maxsted: 	I would like to move to JIRA, though
[15:17]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah, we are going to move to JIRA sometime soon
[15:17]	Jacek Antonelli: 	For our issue tracking, instead of the one we have now (Lighthouse)
[15:17]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Jira? /no
[15:18]	Charlette Proto: 	suppose while more cumbesome to vote via JIRA we could have a list of top requests with links to JIRAs so it would make people vote when they really care rather than just tick and send anything
[15:18]	McCabe Maxsted: 	that'd be a good thing to have on imprudenceviewer.org
[15:18]	Charlette Proto: 	see what I mean, list of top JIRAs on the main page
[15:19]	Jacek Antonelli: 	There's also Get Satisfaction which we tried before. It has feature voting stuff. But it doesn't allow uploads or attaching patches. :\
[15:19]	Charlette Proto: 	attachments are kind of necessary long term I think
[15:20]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah
[15:20]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I wonder if there's a phpBB mod that could make a certain forum act like a feature list, with voting and sorting and priorities
[15:20]	Charlette Proto: 	otherwise it is hard to contribute for those that want to do more than describe their idea
[15:21]	McCabe Maxsted: 	yeah; can't even vote on lighthouse
[15:21]	Charlette Proto: 	a PERL (or something) CGI script would do it, but there must be something out there for sure
[15:22]	Charlette Proto: 	if top issues were 'visible' users would be encouraged immediately, fishing through what there is turns out just too hard for most
[15:23]	Geneko Nemeth gives Garn a good Belly Rub! 	Geneko Nemeth gives Garn a good Belly Rub!
[15:23]	Charlette Proto: 	hi garn
[15:23]	McCabe Maxsted: 	ahoy garn!
[15:23]	Garn Conover: 	hewwo
[15:23]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hey Garn
[15:23]	Garn Conover: 	i remembered!
[15:23]	McCabe Maxsted: 	:)
[15:24]	McCabe Maxsted scratches behind garn's ear 	McCabe Maxsted scratches behind garn's ear
[15:24]	Garn Conover: 	i need to work on my tail on this weekend
[15:25]	Charlette Proto: 	this sim hasn't been restarted for ages I think, the Memory Allocated is 95MB and usually it is 16
[15:25]	Charlette Proto: 	still it runs well
[15:26]	Garn Conover: 	is it just me or the seats shifting
[15:26]	Garn Conover: 	is it just me or the seats shifting
[15:26]	Charlette Proto: 	yup I saw it shifting too
[15:27]	Charlette Proto: 	shit - chat lag and typing didn't stop
[15:27]	Charlette Proto: 	just as i said it was GOOD
[15:29]	Charlette Proto: 	maybe Audre Indigo is the suspect hehe
[15:29]	Jacek Antonelli yawns and stretches. Today would be a nice day to take a nap, hehehe 	Jacek Antonelli yawns and stretches. Today would be a nice day to take a nap, hehehe
[15:29]	McCabe Maxsted: 	haha
[15:29]	McCabe Maxsted: 	I hear ya
[15:29]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Heya Morgaine
[15:29]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hey there morgaine!
[15:29]	Charlette Proto: 	haha don't let us stop you Jacek
[15:29]	Charlette Proto: 	hi Morgaine
[15:29]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Wow, terrible OH overrun by Merov, sorry Jacek :-(
[15:30]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hiya all :-)
[15:30]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah, I was about to go over there and shout at them to finish up, haha
[15:30]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Eek, we're spinning
[15:30]	Garn Conover: 	hows kitteh?
[15:30]	Charlette Proto: 	what is going on with the seats, are you editing jacek?
[15:30]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Geneko is driving us in circles
[15:30]	McCabe Maxsted: 	are we there yet?
[15:30]	Garn Conover: 	lol
[15:30]	McCabe Maxsted: 	are we there yet?
[15:31]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Don't make me turn this table around
[15:31]	Charlette Proto: 	do we need the table?
[15:31]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Nah, but it's Lex's
[15:31]	Garn Conover: 	better than me i like to turn em upside down
[15:31]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Heya Tegg
[15:31]	Charlette Proto: 	some attention seeker may sit on it
[15:31]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hi Tegg
[15:31]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hehe
[15:31]	McCabe Maxsted: 	ahoy Tegg!
[15:31]	Garn Conover: 	hey Teg
[15:31]	Jacek Antonelli clicks Tegg for a quest 	Jacek Antonelli clicks Tegg for a quest
[15:32]	Tegg Bode: 	Hi , I must get around to scripting a quest into the at one day ㋡
[15:32]	Garn Conover: 	thats Bluer's is it not?
[15:32]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Awww, Garn's a nice doggie now, instead of setting fire to the curtains :P
[15:32]	Garn Conover closing eyes in bliss to the scritch 	Garn Conover closing eyes in bliss to the scritch
[15:32]	Garn Conover: 	newest wolf on the market
[15:33]	Jacek Antonelli: 	He is cute
[15:33]	Garn Conover: 	i like it
[15:33]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hehe
[15:33]	Garn Conover: 	well worth the 3k
[15:33]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Is this one moddable?
[15:33]	Garn Conover: 	full
[15:33]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Nice
[15:33]	Tegg Bode: 	So what happened to our 2 Lindens who used to run this Ben and Maggie?
[15:33]	Garn Conover: 	and the creator im'd me thankining me and asked for feedback
[15:34]	Tegg Bode: 	Yeah way too much cute for a wolf ㋡
[15:34]	Morgaine Dinova: 	lol
[15:35]	Jacek Antonelli: 	This hasn't been a Linden office hour for 9 months or so. They gave up their office hours, so we took over
[15:35]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Urk. No spinning please. It's making me dizzy :(
[15:35]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hate it how tinies break
[15:36]	Jacek Antonelli: 	-_-
[15:36]	Tegg Bode: 	So are they on other stuff now or left the company ?
[15:36]	Morgaine Dinova: 	How're you doing McCabe? Very quiet today :-)
[15:36]	Jacek Antonelli: 	They are still working on UI stuff. They just decided that it wasn't worth it to come pretend to listen for us for one hour every week
[15:36]	Garn Conover: 	has he been paneled for tues?
[15:37]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Or one hour every month, for that matter...
[15:38]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Well, yes. But really, when you think about it, it's more efficient this way. Even when they were coming, they didn't listen to us. So now they can ignore us while doing other things, too
[15:38]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yep
[15:38]	McCabe Maxsted: 	sorry, I've been slightly afk a little
[15:38]	Morgaine Dinova: 	And we were just getting frustrated at discussing things which they were powerless to affect.
[15:38]	McCabe Maxsted is good. I love implementing new things 	McCabe Maxsted is good. I love implementing new things
[15:39]	Morgaine Dinova smiles 	Morgaine Dinova smiles
[15:39]	Morgaine Dinova: 	What're you busy implementing ?
[15:39]	McCabe Maxsted: 	paneled?
[15:39]	McCabe Maxsted: 	ah, hehe, paddled. Not yet
[15:40]	McCabe Maxsted: 	actually, I have something I was hoping to get feedback on
[15:40]	Garn Conover: 	http://www.flickr.com/photos/mccabemaxsted/3907289431/ oooh
[15:40]	McCabe Maxsted: 	was thinking of putting draw distance in there as well, as I like that in emerald
[15:40]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Coo
[15:41]	Garn Conover grins 	Garn Conover grins
[15:41]	McCabe Maxsted: 	yeah
[15:41]	McCabe Maxsted: 	was wondering if there were any other graphics stuff that should go in there?
[15:41]	Morgaine Dinova tries to cam into flikr again 	Morgaine Dinova tries to cam into flikr again
[15:41]	Garn Conover: 	i keep trying to change my day cyckle but never can get it to work lol
[15:41]	Geneko Nemeth: 	RenderAvatarMaxV
[15:41]	Geneko Nemeth: 	RenderAvatarMaxVisible.
[15:42]	Jacek Antonelli: 	There was talk a long time ago about being able to define and switch between "presets" of graphics settings. So if you go into a busy area, you can turn the settings down, etc.
[15:42]	Geneko Nemeth: 	RenderGlowMinExtractAlpha?
[15:42]	Morgaine Dinova: 	One-click presets would be grand.
[15:42]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Err, RenderGlowMinLuminance
[15:42]	McCabe Maxsted: 	presets for graphics settings would be nice
[15:43]	McCabe Maxsted: 	won't really have time for a while though on those
[15:43]	Charlette Proto: 	personally i feel strongly that a user customised toolbar etc is the only way to make a eral diff in the UUI
[15:43]	Charlette Proto: 	UI*
[15:43]	Tegg Bode: 	Shadows On/Off ? ㋡
[15:43]	McCabe Maxsted: 	how about mesh detail? or lighting?
[15:43]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Goes back to the Zbrush-like frame idea.
[15:43]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I don't think they make too much difference.
[15:44]	Garn Conover: 	yea they really need a shadow button
[15:44]	Garn Conover: 	hey is it possible to detect if its usable like in preferences?
[15:44]	Tegg Bode: 	A cloud button would be nice to for when I'm in building mode clouds are a pain I have to turn off
[15:45]	McCabe Maxsted: 	classic clouds?
[15:45]	Garn Conover: 	i find it funny classic clouds are still around
[15:46]	Tegg Bode: 	Yeah, I'm usuall building with megaprims, zommed right out and clouds are a pain, I turn them off with the advanced menu
[15:46]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hmm, you can get to that pretty fast by clicking the presets button
[15:47]	Tegg Bode: 	yeah I should do that and permanant daylight for building, didn't think of that
[15:48]	McCabe Maxsted: 	setting so lighting defaults to daylight while building?
[15:49]	Charlette Proto: 	this just confirms my feelings - user defined modes and sharing of UI definitions is the only way to go, atm the alt viewers are doing an appaling job of adding features here and there and the 'In This Viewer' (Meerkat Emerald) menu - that gets -1 out of 10 from me as far as UI design theory
[15:50]	Morgaine Dinova: 	That's true, the viewers are all diverging
[15:50]	Morgaine Dinova: 	It's going to make sharing of patches harder
[15:50]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Are they? There's a lot of cross-pollination of features.
[15:50]	Tegg Bode: 	Yeah idealy a building mode preset would be the go I guess with a fast key to turn it on, maybe I can make a LSL scripted button to change to windlight settings, wouldn't that be cool if you could change a users windlight settings directly from LSL ㋡
[15:50]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Major changes afoot in Snowglobe land, with both the plugin-api being merged and the new OGP functionality. So that's diverging as well.
[15:51]	Charlette Proto: 	diverging, but assuming they are differentiated from the main as a way of finding 'new' features in them User Experience FAIL to them
[15:51]	Charlette Proto: 	Tegg that is what I mean - user defined (with presets) toolbar modes for commonly used features of the UI
[15:52]	Tegg Bode: 	And we have the 2010 mega viewer coming too, as it sems 1.23 is the last of that tree
[15:52]	McCabe Maxsted: 	turn the toolbar into a ribbon?
[15:52]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Oh jeez yeah
[15:52]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Viewer2.0 or whatever
[15:53]	Charlette Proto: 	yup this sitll is a secret, but I'm not expecting it to be anything revolutionary
[15:53]	Geneko Nemeth: 	But it would be evolutionary, no?
[15:53]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Well seeing as LL are very actively working on Snowglobe, I think it's clear that the internals are going to remain unaffected to a large extent, or it would be work wasted.
[15:54]	Charlette Proto: 	more or less McCabe - drag UI elements from existing menus onto the toolbar and a way to swith between different collections of tools
[15:55]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hiya Tech
[15:55]	Charlette Proto: 	agrees with Morg, the code musn't be too far (same paradigm) unless they just want to get input and ideas
[15:55]	Charlette Proto: 	hi tech
[15:55]	McCabe Maxsted: 	ahoy tech!
[15:55]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Hi all
[15:55]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Tech: did Merov only just finish?
[15:55]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	I think they found what was causing some texture not to load fully.
[15:56]	Morgaine Dinova: 	They found the early -1 ?
[15:56]	Charlette Proto: 	only alt viewers and their users have texture problems in my experience
[15:56]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	High repeting textues will slam the area calcuation down.
[15:57]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Charlette: nah, Ardy's problem was in all 1.23+
[15:57]	Tegg Bode: 	Yeah unless they introduce some serious new features I don't see Megaviewerr 2.0 as being anything more than just bling and Noobie usability
[15:58]	Geneko Nemeth: 	New feature in Viewer2009: "Look".
[15:58]	Charlette Proto: 	as i said, I've not seen a Snow, Public or RC user with texture problems since the skin transparency layer issues
[15:58]	Tegg Bode: 	WTF, I still can't save a day cycle preference in Windlight, it's so incoplete :/
[15:58]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Example of usage in English: "This is my cool new Look, I like this Look for me."
??? "This is my business casual Look." "This is my summer beach Look." "This Look turns me into a green troll avatar."
??? "Show me all of my Looks."
[15:58]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe gen
[15:58]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hahahaha
[15:59]	Morgaine Dinova: 	You jest ... but I wouldn't put it past them
[15:59]	Geneko Nemeth: 	No, I'm serious! I mean, I didn't write those! http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/CT-487
[16:00]	Morgaine Dinova sighs 	Morgaine Dinova sighs
[16:00]	Charlette Proto: 	shit you are kidding, MS style Wizards next - 'make a new avie' - do you want female or male
[16:01]	Tegg Bode: 	Yeah well I guess if they cater for more simple users they increase population and hopefully increase the spending poulation too
[16:01]	Geneko Nemeth: 	What's wrong with that?
[16:01]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Oh my...he wasn't kidding. http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/CT-487?focusedCommentId=133052&page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels%3Acomment-tabpanel#action_133052
[16:01]	Morgaine Dinova: 	SL + more population = crash
[16:02]	Garn Conover: 	ok i'm gonna poof back to kuula i need to checksomethign before i go watch tv :) ttyal :)
[16:02]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Cyu Garn
[16:02]	Tegg Bode: 	They said that when we only had 8000 online in 2007 ㋡
[16:03]	Morgaine Dinova: 	And they were right. Regions never rose in scalability, so we've been having negative scalability ever since.
[16:03]	Charlette Proto: 	true 40 avs in a sim and you are dead
[16:04]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Not only the 40 agent limit wasn't raised at the server side, on the client side there's a limit that no more than 25 avatars are rendered...
[16:04]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Needs a lot of work at both ends.
[16:04]	Geneko Nemeth: 	So a torifull squirrel won't lag the client down...
[16:05]	Charlette Proto: 	but each av these days is a very high computational cost - prim whores with sculpties, textures and tons of useless scripts running
[16:05]	Tegg Bode: 	Hmm I'm sure I've been to concerts on private estates with 80 avatars in the past
[16:05]	Geneko Nemeth: 	That's the past.
[16:05]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Try to have the client render 80 of me.
[16:05]	Charlette Proto: 	yeah Tegg, but not resource whores like we have now
[16:06]	Charlette Proto: 	I would be scared Gen to see 80 rabbits - a plague literally
[16:06]	Geneko Nemeth thinks torus needs to have a lower LOD. 	Geneko Nemeth thinks torus needs to have a lower LOD.
[16:06]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Charlette: yeah, that's why region scalability is negative now. If avs didn't get more complex with time, and server max stayed constant, then the scalability would be zero. Now it's negative
[16:06]	Tegg Bode: 	Well I'm not sure sculptes actually are less work to render than some shaps made using multiple regular prims
[16:07]	Charlette Proto: 	true Tegg, but they are a texture to load in all clients
[16:08]	Charlette Proto: 	Morg: precisely what I mean, av load whores just don't care and brag how many prims and scripts they wear
[16:08]	Tegg Bode: 	YEah somewhere along the line SL™ should have had some default textures and prim sets stored on all clients like common size wall and floor prims
[16:09]	Charlette Proto: 	??? teg
[16:09]	Buliders Tape Measure new whispers: Measuring Tape, click me 	Buliders Tape Measure new whispers: Measuring Tape, click me
[16:09]	Buliders Tape Measure new whispers: Average Avatar height, click again for door height 	Buliders Tape Measure new whispers: Average Avatar height, click again for door height
[16:09]	Tegg Bode: 	And maybe the same for hair textures and common clothing textures like leather etc
[16:09]	Buliders Tape Measure new whispers: Door height and width, click again for first floor height	Buliders Tape Measure new whispers: Door height and width, click again for first floor height
[16:09]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	When http-textrue come to frutation, I would not be suprise if someone out there puts up a 10G file on a p2p to folks to use to reduce load times.
[16:10]	Charlette Proto: 	well the cache needs an overhaul
[16:10]	Buliders Tape Measure new whispers: First floor ceiling height, click again for hallway width	Buliders Tape Measure new whispers: First floor ceiling height, click again for hallway width
[16:10]	Buliders Tape Measure new whispers: Hallway width, click again for room size 	Buliders Tape Measure new whispers: Hallway width, click again for room size
[16:10]	Buliders Tape Measure new whispers: Room size, click again for second floor ceiling height 	Buliders Tape Measure new whispers: Room size, click again for second floor ceiling height
[16:10]	Buliders Tape Measure new whispers: Second floor ceiling height, click again to reset 	Buliders Tape Measure new whispers: Second floor ceiling height, click again to reset
[16:10]	Buliders Tape Measure new whispers: Measuring Tape, click me 	Buliders Tape Measure new whispers: Measuring Tape, click me
[16:10]	Tegg Bode: 	Well, I think it's a bit insane there are thousands of red brick wall textures in the texture servers that all look the same and we continue to upgrade them repeatedly
[16:11]	Morgaine Dinova: 	The cache first needs nuking from orbit
[16:11]	Tegg Bode: 	upload them*
[16:11]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I'd dedicate a 1TB drive to cache if I could, and if it actually worked.
[16:11]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Tired of reloading my own zone 20 times a day
[16:12]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	I would use a squid proxy and make sure that it download the entire texture file and use a decated spare drive.
[16:12]	Charlette Proto: 	agree with Morg, the whole VFS thing is dated and a mess on HD hence low performance
[16:13]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Tech: Squid will have to wait until everything comes over HTTP. That could be a long wait.
[16:13]	Tegg Bode: 	Yes we should only be downloading custom stuff that differs from standard, be good if 30% of content was default textures andparts like 10x10x.1 floor prim
[16:13]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	[16:09] Techwolf Lupindo: When http-textrue come to frutation, I would not be suprise if someone out there puts up a 10G file on a p2p to folks to use to reduce load times.
[16:13]	Charlette Proto: 	I still think (some don't) a single database file woulf be better than 35k of fragmented files on HD
[16:13]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	I said when http-texture some to frutation.
[16:14]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	comes
[16:14]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Tech: the 10G file point is separate from the Squid point :-) Alternatives
[16:14]	McCabe Maxsted: 	okay, I have to run
[16:14]	Charlette Proto: 	byee McCabe
[16:14]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Cya McCabe :-)
[16:14]	McCabe Maxsted waves. See you all next week :) 	McCabe Maxsted waves. See you all next week :)
[16:14]	Tegg Bode: 	cya
[16:15]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Morgaine, http-texture IS http transfer. Squid or not.
[16:15]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Tech: yeah, but once you have HTTP for object transfers, you don't need the 10G file. They're separate approaches :-)
[16:16]	Tegg Bode: 	I just find it hard to believ I could find and upload a 512x512 texture fster from a hard drive on the other side of the planet than from my on hard drive ㋡
[16:16]	Charlette Proto: 	squid is a proxy - am i right, like in a HTTP server
[16:16]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yep, a caching proxy
[16:17]	Charlette Proto: 	that is what i mean, using off the shelf tech like that in HTTP servers is a good idea and really not sure why LL don't do more of it
[16:17]	Morgaine Dinova: 	They can't currently, owing to the UDP legacy junk
[16:18]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Not necessarily, the texture pipeline could be switched to HTTP while other messages could still stay UDP.
[16:18]	Charlette Proto: 	after all we are just viewing internet files and rendering them in 3D and there is little need to reinvent the wheel since Web 2 tech is everywhere and skills are common
[16:18]	Charlette Proto: 	yup UDP should go asap
[16:18]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Unfortunately, they're not thinking too cleverly on how OGP is going to do it either. Current plans are going to make object transfers use 10 times the bandwidth and have 20 times more latency
[16:19]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Oof
[16:19]	Tegg Bode: 	Ouch
[16:19]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Stupid long poll approach for object updates. It's not clever
[16:19]	Charlette Proto: 	so should all Philip's ancient shit, a man with a hammer sees the whole world as banged together with nails
[16:19]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I hope there's some tradeoff?
[16:20]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Tradeoff is that it's cacheable, Jacek. That is, assuming caches don't barf on the long poll
[16:20]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Why cacheable object updates, though?
[16:20]	Morgaine Dinova: 	So that multiple users can benefit from locality I guess
[16:21]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Work In Progress :-)
[16:21]	Charlette Proto: 	sometimes I really feel one should start from scratch building Interop VWs and forget the SL/LL legacy all together
[16:21]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Or rather, Work Just Beginning :P
[16:21]	Tegg Bode: 	The crazy thing is Opensim etc just seem to be copying all of LL's major problems, though I did see soemeon the other day is testing a patch to make 512x512 sims
[16:21]	Charlette Proto: 	we are very attached to our avs/accounts/SL-skills, but it would be best to let it go
[16:22]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Everyone see this? MegaRegions on Opensim -- http://www.adamfrisby.com/blog/2009/09/opensim-megaregions/
[16:23]	Charlette Proto: 	in my view most of Second Life™ code is just rushed and missinformed decissions thrown together without any foresight
[16:23]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yep, cool stuff.
[16:23]	Tegg Bode: 	Yes trying to stay compatible with 2003 content is a pain, LL should start a new company with a new name and scratch compatibility, but somehow steal SL's users
[16:23]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hahaha
[16:23]	Charlette Proto: 	not LL Tegg
[16:24]	Jacek Antonelli: 	London Lab presents... Segunda Vida!
[16:24]	Morgaine Dinova: 	That MegaRegion stuff has LL seriously worried, judging by the comments of "interesting" that some Lindens have made. My impression is "scared shitless".
[16:24]	Charlette Proto: 	we need an open system (registry) and individual service providers
[16:24]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Lindens != LL.
[16:25]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Well we don't know what "LL" is ... closest we get to it is Lindens :P
[16:25]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Lindens are cool. LL have been uncool for a quite a while.
[16:25]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hehe, true enough
[16:25]	Tegg Bode: 	Well someone, the userbase is about all SL™ has going for it in the long term but that could be taken easily by a "SL 2.0" based on eliminating SL's long term mistakes
[16:25]	Geneko Nemeth: 	LL is... corporate culture. Behaviour. Execs.
[16:26]	Tegg Bode: 	It's not like it's rocket science to invent the 512x512 or even 1024x1024 region
[16:26]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Nobody talks about the Tao anymore.
[16:26]	Geneko Nemeth: 	No, but a lot of stuff in the viewer assumes 256*256.
[16:26]	Morgaine Dinova: 	The Tao is dropped I think, along with "Your world, your imagination"
[16:26]	Charlette Proto: 	I feel that one day LL will just be a forgotten 'legacy' platform and a lot of effort is being wasted atm at extending the rubbish they made so far
[16:26]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Strangely, Rendering and Messeaging aren't limited by the 256 fallacy...
[16:27]	Tegg Bode: 	It's not rocket science to change the viewer to work with bigger regions, mainly scripting content would be a problem
[16:27]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Well, if it's stupid but it works, it's not stupid. With some value of "works" and "stupid" of course.
[16:28]	Jacek Antonelli: 	That's part of the problem -- the viewer and the server are so tightly coupled. For many features, you'd have to be able to change both of them, and force everyone to upgrade their viewers
[16:28]	Geneko Nemeth shouts: http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff1800/fc01762.htm 	Geneko Nemeth shouts: http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff1800/fc01762.htm
[16:28]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Everything in SL is hard and LL have no manpower for it .... until suddenly M says it's the order of the day and suddenly manpower is infinite, like for Zindra.
[16:28]	Charlette Proto: 	not the viewer tegg, the servers I think are the problem, viewers render a lot more including 512m distances across sims
[16:28]	Geneko Nemeth: 	You're right.
[16:29]	Charlette Proto: 	yup Morgaine, but Zindra is one of the classic mistakes too, all effort is being wasted
[16:29]	Geneko Nemeth: 	How is it a mistake?
[16:29]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I've not seen Zindra since the preview days.
[16:29]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Well, sometimes they are tightly coupled, like voice, image formats (Snowglobe cannot display OpenSim textures anymore), and Adult ratings...
[16:30]	Charlette Proto: 	I think making a PG continent would heve been a better way than restricting the activities on existing land - for strters
[16:30]	Tegg Bode: 	Yep and it wouldn't be that hard to change server code, it's not impossible and would bring long term benifits
[16:30]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Well... right. A futuristic, open themed region isn't really good for making love.
[16:30]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Geneko: what do you mean Snowglobe can't display Opensim textures anymore? I need to know about that.
[16:30]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Morgaine: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-157
[16:31]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Thanks, reading
[16:31]	Morgaine Dinova: 	My experience with Snowglobe in OSgrid is simply that it won't stay up more than a couple of minutes.
[16:32]	Tegg Bode: 	I think they wanted to keep the existing mainland as being eventually the PG continents, as 90% of the content there is PG anyway, I suspect that a lot of content is on land that residents have left SL™ and LL don't want to delete the builds to keep mainland looing populated and good
[16:32]	Charlette Proto: 	uses Meerkat on OSGrid and openLife viewer there, but would like to use one - however scared of cache corruption etc
[16:35]	Charlette Proto: 	true Tegg, I squat on the neighbours parcel and have for 2 years now, problem is most builds have tons of crappy scripts and particles and lag so they should be replaced with clean generic content
[16:35]	Charlette Proto: 	but that is a dream
[16:36]	Morgaine Dinova: 	There should be a startup flag --cache_path XXX
[16:36]	Charlette Proto: 	yes Morgaine and one for Chat IM files (I use the same name on all grids)
[16:36]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yeah#
[16:37]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I've only ever been to OSgrid. What else is interesting?
[16:37]	Charlette Proto: 	the name makes a mess of everything, recently I logged in Second Life™ and Snow said "Teleport from OpenLife Welcome Areat x y z completed successfully"
[16:38]	Tegg Bode: 	Interesting though there is a lifetime plot in the middle of a neighbours land that had some stuff built on it, and although for 2 years the owners hasn't been in SL™ the neighbour somehow managed to get the content removed somehow so it's just grass now.
[16:38]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Awww... this meeting's boring.
[16:38]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Charlette: yeah, the messages are messed up
[16:39]	Charlette Proto: 	OSGrid is very low performance OpenLife is better, but to a degree OL is not really open eg viewer is custom etc
[16:39]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Custom viewer required is a deal breaker, not interested
[16:39]	Charlette Proto: 	it is like the viewers read common 'last state' info but can't resolve and of it correctly
[16:40]	Charlette Proto: 	yup Morg, not sure if it is for safety reasons, but eg MeerKat just can't log to OpenLife
[16:41]	Tegg Bode: 	Somewhere along the line I think some of the clones should just break ranks and forget SL™ compatibility and interaction in favor of better features and structure
[16:41]	Charlette Proto: 	OSGrid promote Hippo but anything works
[16:41]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Like realXtend
[16:42]	Tegg Bode: 	Yep Real Excttnd has some great stuff but progres is at a crawl rate
[16:42]	Charlette Proto: 	agree with Tegg, new standards and new designs etc, ATM it is a waste of time since LL will not play along and give us what we paid for here to use on other grids anyway
[16:42]	Tegg Bode: 	Why wast time coding to display LL's 90's look avatars ㋡
[16:43]	Morgaine Dinova: 	True
[16:43]	Charlette Proto: 	we need a revolution
[16:43]	Morgaine Dinova: 	It was nice for its time, but gotta look forward
[16:44]	Charlette Proto: 	tomorrow is 9/11 (now in Aus) maybe we should smash the twin towers again
[16:44]	Tegg Bode: 	It's a bit like trying to be able to use a Lineage or GuildWars Viewer in Warcraft
[16:44]	Charlette Proto: 	yes Morg we should have the guts to move on and start afreash
[16:44]	Tegg Bode: 	No it's 11/9 in Oz ㋡
[16:45]	Charlette Proto: 	haha I forgot we are mirrored
[16:45]	Tegg Bode: 	I reckon 9/11 was chosen as part of a conspiricy to force everyone to US date format actually ㋡
[16:46]	Charlette Proto: 	well 9/11 (S11) was going to be a huge G8 protest and was here and than all hell broke loose
[16:46]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Wednesday was 09/09/09
[16:46]	Charlette Proto: 	9/11 papers here covered the anti globalisation movements and 9/12 covered the twin towers
[16:47]	Charlette Proto: 	yes but the best was 9/9/1999 that spooked most UNIX based mail servers
[16:48]	Charlette Proto: 	th 9999 was the a spooky number for dates relating to infinity, worse than Y2K for many systems
[16:48]	Tegg Bode: 	Ahh the Millinium bug ㋡ I remember the panic, canned food rush, concern that peoples toasters and 1976 Fords wouldn't work on new years day.........
[16:49]	Jacek Antonelli: 	heh
[16:49]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Gotta run, take care all