Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2012.03.23

Simulator_User_Group
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== List of Speakers ==
Andrew Linden 	Ardy Lay 	Chieron Tenk
Draconis Neurocam 	FadeOut Razorfen	Falcon Linden
Fancy Detector 	Flip Idlemind 	Johan Laurasia
Kallista Destiny 	Keli Kyrie 	MartinRJ Fayray
Moundsa Mayo 	Nalates Urriah 	Rex Cronon
Sahkolihaa Contepomi	Squirrel Wood 	TankMaster Finesmith
Techwolf Lupindo 	Vincent Nacon 	xstorm Radek
== Transcript ==
[16:03] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Hey Andrew.
[16:03] Andrew Linden: Hello
[16:03] xstorm Radek: hi Andrew
[16:04] Kallista Destiny: Hi Andrew
[16:04] Andrew Linden: hrm... no table today I guess.
[16:04] Techwolf Lupindo: Hi all.
[16:04] Andrew Linden: Simon can't make it today.
[16:04] xstorm Radek: i bet he is hiding from me Andrew lol
[16:04] Johan Laurasia: I can pull out mine
[16:05] Vincent Nacon: I can see why
[16:05] xstorm Radek: aaawwww
[16:05] Andrew Linden: I stand at all my other meetings
[16:05] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
[16:05] Andrew Linden: but this one just doesn't feel right unless I'm sitting at a table or some sort of circle
[16:05] Johan Laurasia: take a load off everyone
[16:05] Squirrel Wood: standing around is not a good thing. Every tf2 sniper can attest to that :)
[16:06] Vincent Nacon: you used to stand at meeting but then you took an arrow to the knee
[16:06] Rex Cronon: kind of like the knights of the round table:)
[16:06] Squirrel Wood: unsquare table :p
[16:06] Johan Laurasia: knights of the lemon table
[16:06] Vincent Nacon: except it's not round
[16:06] Vincent Nacon: muhaha!
[16:06] Andrew Linden: lessee... news...
[16:07] Rex Cronon: :)
[16:07] Andrew Linden: I got some help with the LSL syntax highlighting from Ima Mechanique a week ago
[16:08] Nalates Urriah: hooray Ima
[16:08] Flip Idlemind is aware of some new functions, but...
[16:08] Johan Laurasia: Go Ima
[16:08] Flip Idlemind signed an NDA
[16:08] Flip Idlemind: Gyahahhah ooooh
[16:08] Andrew Linden: which I think included some text descriptions for the various LSL constants that I needed
[16:08] Moundsa Mayo: Yah, Ima works HARD on LSLEditor (and other stuff)
[16:08] Kallista Destiny: we're Knghts of the oval table, we dance when 'er were able.
[16:08] Andrew Linden: however I didn't get to wrangling the syntax files this week :-(
[16:08] Andrew Linden: but I plan on getting it done
[16:08] Vincent Nacon puts his whip away...
[16:08] xstorm Radek: did they not kill lsl editor yet ?
[16:09] xstorm Radek: what happen to c#
[16:09] Andrew Linden: I've been working on the pathfinding stuff, and some support for the wilderness regions currently up for inspection on the main grid somewhere
[16:09] Moundsa Mayo: Nope. Alive and kicking, and staying fairly up-to-date with new functionality.
[16:09] Vincent Nacon: um xstorm, I think you're jumping the gun there but wait for his news
[16:09] Andrew Linden: so I don't have any other maintenance news
[16:10] Flip Idlemind: Well...Do you have any news about when the "Experience" beta is supposed to start?
[16:10] Andrew Linden: The syntax highlighting stuff I'm talking about is first just to update the viewer project with some unhandled constants and LSL calls.
[16:10] Flip Idlemind cries on the floor
[16:10] Flip Idlemind: (Can you tell I'm impatient?)
[16:10] Andrew Linden: Then eventually to provide a way for viewers to download the syntax from the servers.
[16:11] xstorm Radek: its ok FLIP hugs
[16:11] MartinRJ Fayray: hello
[16:11] Andrew Linden: C# is on hold indefinitely
[16:11] Rex Cronon: hi
[16:11] xstorm Radek: aaaawwww
[16:11] xstorm Radek: bye c#
[16:11] xstorm Radek: **ok i wuv u byby!!**
[16:11] Andrew Linden: You'll have to ask Kelly for any news about C# plans. That is what I would do.
[16:11] Flip Idlemind: On hold indefinitely doesn't necessarily mean never gonna happen
[16:11] Flip Idlemind: If I understand it correctly
[16:12] Vincent Nacon: not never but it'll be a very long while
[16:12] Andrew Linden: Yes.
[16:12] Vincent Nacon: 3 or 4 years at most I'd say
[16:12] Flip Idlemind: Hopefully the Experience tools will be out by then
[16:12] Johan Laurasia: indefinate means not defined.
[16:12] Andrew Linden: I think it would happen if we could get enough dev's and time to work on it, I believe. That is, it is still a good idea in my opinion.
[16:13] xstorm Radek: in my past record on hold = dead and will never be like back in the ay with region tree growing and region weather
[16:13] Andrew Linden: sure, those are two good data points
[16:13] Andrew Linden: maybe there were some projects we put on hold and eventually finished...
[16:14] Draconis Neurocam: windlight
[16:14] Vincent Nacon: muhaha!
[16:14] Johan Laurasia: well, overall, there's just alot to do too.
[16:14] Rex Cronon: if the c# ever gets hold u guys will have to kind of restrict it otherwise might lead to security problems
[16:14] Andrew Linden: yup
[16:14] Johan Laurasia: no shortage of ideas, just man hours to develop it.
[16:14] Vincent Nacon: yeah. so it's not even on their future plan
[16:14] Andrew Linden: Kelly can explain the plan on how to sanitize C# operations, I think.
[16:14] xstorm Radek: what more se problems then we have now ?
[16:15] Vincent Nacon: it's just "extra"
[16:15] Flip Idlemind: Another good (and currently on-hold) idea is the idea of different script "versions", so functions could be changed without breaking old scripts
[16:15] Vincent Nacon: yeah
[16:15] Andrew Linden: Flip, I think script versioning would be a pre-req for C# stuff.
[16:15] Flip Idlemind: Those two got mentioned in the same sentence a lot, yeah
[16:15] Flip Idlemind: Back in the day
[16:16] Vincent Nacon: maybe but wasn't there a Linden doing concept of that, Andrew?
[16:16] xstorm Radek: ;)
[16:16] Vincent Nacon: Cory or someone?
[16:16] Draconis Neurocam: would have been babbage
[16:16] Vincent Nacon: maybe
[16:16] Andrew Linden: Yes, I think Babbage and Kelly had been working on it.
[16:16] xstorm Radek: is not cory linden gone ?
[16:16] Techwolf Lupindo: My vote is for lui. C# has the MS gorilla over it. Even though C# affendios will say C# is free of IP by MS, lawers will tell you otherwise.
[16:16] Johan Laurasia: quite some time I'd say x
[16:17] Vincent Nacon: let's talk about something that LL can do at this moment
[16:17] Andrew Linden: The table is open.
[16:17] Rex Cronon: techwolf u meant to say "lua"?
[16:17] xstorm Radek: i was still cleaning up litter prims from cory linden
[16:17] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Andrew, could you look at the logs of a sim for me? It crashed five times earlier within two hours. Twice yesterday. I don't know why it did.
[16:17] Draconis Neurocam: andrew how is the mainland prim encroachment flip being switched going?
[16:18] Andrew Linden: Draconis, that switch happened about a week ago.
[16:18] Andrew Linden: I haven't heard of any problems.
[16:18] Draconis Neurocam: ah i must have missed it
[16:18] Andrew Linden: We didn't announce it in the blog, but there is a quietly deployed Knowledge Base documentation update about it somewhere.
[16:19] xstorm Radek: out dated knowledge base wiki one ?
[16:19] Andrew Linden: Also, I haven't heard anyone mention that they have successfully used it.
[16:19] Techwolf Lupindo: I've read where there are "return this prim" parites going on mainland. Where nieborts are returning all the annoying crap by there niebores.
[16:19] Nalates Urriah: an bloggers blabbed
[16:19] Vincent Nacon: I don't own land
[16:19] Andrew Linden: oh really Techwolf? I hadn't heard.
[16:20] Techwolf Lupindo: I'll see if I can find it again....Hmm....history....
[16:20] Flip Idlemind: So, table is open huh? Have I mentioned I'm dying for new Experience info?
[16:21] Andrew Linden: I'll try to remember to ask around in LL to see if anyone has noticed a change in frequency of "please remove this object" requests to Lindens.
[16:21] Vincent Nacon: any progress from Falcon, pathfinding or any of the physic related?
[16:21] Nalates Urriah: lol poor Flip
[16:21] Techwolf Lupindo: "OK MISCHIEF MAKERS - there is a new popular pastime arising on the SL grid called RETURN IT ALL"
[16:21] Andrew Linden: Flip, I don't have any news on Experience.
[16:22] xstorm Radek: nerf gun and asking around at LL andrew ?
[16:22] Andrew Linden: Falcons said he'd try to make it to this meeting later.
[16:22] Vincent Nacon: ah ok
[16:22] Vincent Nacon: guess he got news
[16:22] Flip Idlemind: Ok. Sorry, I'm just losing my mind a little over the lack of follow-up-ness
[16:22] Flip Idlemind: I signed the little document over a week ago T_T
[16:22] Vincent Nacon: yeah... Flip... shhh
[16:23] Squirrel Wood: you will get there :)
[16:23] Squirrel Wood: sloooooooooooooowly
[16:23] Vincent Nacon: or never
[16:23] xstorm Radek: and 2 years later you may see the graph move
[16:24] Sahkolihaa Contepomi guesses her question was missed.
[16:24] xstorm Radek: yep
[16:24] Andrew Linden: restate it please Sahkolihaa
[16:24] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: 'Andrew, could you look at the logs of a sim for me? It crashed five times earlier within two hours. Twice yesterday. I don't know why it did.'
[16:24] Andrew Linden: ah, a request to look at logs? What region/
[16:24] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: FurNation Hell, again.
[16:25] FadeOut Razorfen: i want falcon D:< he left one major glitch in pathfinding untouched (the one with instant rotation change when path is changed, it makes characters look really weird)
[16:25] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: I have a feeling some script is crashing it.
[16:25] Vincent Nacon: of course
[16:25] Squirrel Wood: symptoms: stops responding, traffic zero, disconnect. no evidence of griefing
[16:25] Andrew Linden: Hrm... yeah, currently it is "down".
[16:25] Rex Cronon: somebody really "loves" that sim?
[16:25] xstorm Radek: i know why regions are crashing just give it time that problem wil be fix
[16:25] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Oh joy...
[16:25] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: That's the sixth time today, Andrew. :/
[16:25] Vincent Nacon: FurNations have been under attack so many times than anywhere else
[16:25] Johan Laurasia: ouch
[16:26] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Hell and Vista get hit easily due to the sandboxes.
[16:26] Andrew Linden: hrm... crashes for it are not showing up, so yeah I think it can't come up for some reason
[16:26] Techwolf Lupindo: I think furnations are a huge target of griefters in general.
[16:26] Flip Idlemind: Speaking of Furnation Hell, that reminds me. There's a message called "ObjectUpdate", that sends "OwnerID" only if the object has attached sounds or particles. Any reason why that can't or shouldn't be sent along with all object update messages?
[16:26] Rex Cronon: how r those sim usually crashed?
[16:26] Andrew Linden: I'll ask our #dnoc team to look into it now.
[16:26] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Usually physics, but the last 6 today weren't caused by that.
[16:26] Andrew Linden: It's be hard for me to wrangle that region and also pay attention here.
[16:26] xstorm Radek: they will not Andrew the problem is a known problem and isgetting lookd at:)
[16:27] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Thanks, Andrew. Much appreciated.
[16:27] xstorm Radek: its the same problem violet and bear has
[16:27] xstorm Radek: and a number of other regions
[16:27] Andrew Linden: No, Violet and Bear were "up" but unavailable earlier in the week.
[16:27] Ardy Lay: Andrew, it might be SEC-1029
[16:28] Andrew Linden: Are they unavailable now?
[16:28] Rex Cronon: physical crashes due to rezzing of hundreds/thousands of physical prims being rezzed?
[16:28] xstorm Radek: no rex
[16:28] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Rex - in the FN sims, sometimes those do crash the sim.
[16:28] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Not always. Sometimes they run fine.
[16:29] Flip Idlemind: I had an idea for a "Derender By Owner" viewer-side feature, but for it to work (well, for it to work perfectly) the viewer would need to know every object's owner before "creating" it
[16:29] xstorm Radek: heavy load of physics is no real problem
[16:29] MartinRJ Fayray: I have put something on the agenda!
[16:29] xstorm Radek: but if the region will not autorestart thats aproblem
[16:29] Andrew Linden: FurNation Hell isn't down for SEC-1029. It is something else. Not sure right now.
[16:30] Vincent Nacon: you don't have to do that
[16:30] MartinRJ Fayray: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-28634
[16:30] JIRA-helper: [#VWR-28634] The build-(tools-)window pops open if the dragged object under your mouse dies or gets deleted.
[16:30] Rex Cronon: hmm. how do i say this? there something that make that might help with that sim crashing.
[16:30] Vincent Nacon: just spill it on the table
[16:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[16:30] Rex Cronon: sorry i didn't mean to self-advertise
[16:30] MartinRJ Fayray: It's causing problems with a slingshot game I am programming.
[16:30] MartinRJ Fayray: when you drag a physical object while it dies, the build/tools-window pops open
[16:30] xstorm Radek: is it simple attacks andrew? if so i will no longer watch them ?
[16:31] Vincent Nacon: Martin, I don't see how that's a bug
[16:31] Flip Idlemind: I guess it's unexpected behavior
[16:31] Vincent Nacon: maybe trivial
[16:32] MartinRJ Fayray: no it will stay open only as long as you hold down the mouse button
[16:32] Fancy Detector: Falcon Linden has arrived!
[16:32] MartinRJ Fayray: it's definitely not expected
[16:32] Andrew Linden: Well, its a viewer UI problem, and it kinda sounds like a bug to me.
[16:32] xstorm Radek: hi Falcon
[16:32] Andrew Linden: Dunno why the window would pop up.
[16:32] Johan Laurasia: yeah, doesn't sound like it was meant to do that.
[16:32] Object: Hello, Avatar!
[16:33] xstorm Radek: ???? is it the can not edit object ?
[16:35] Andrew Linden: Hrm... I don't see Falcon. Maybe he'll come back.
[16:35] Vincent Nacon: he's at the bottom
[16:35] Rex Cronon: he crashed on arrival?
[16:35] Vincent Nacon: just outside of the building but in between that and the hill
[16:35] xstorm Radek: may be opengl bug again
[16:36] Object: Hello, Avatar!
[16:36] Vincent Nacon: there he is
[16:36] Falcon Linden: I don't like the sound of that
[16:37] Vincent Nacon: get the net!
[16:37] Andrew Linden: Hey Falcon, got any news?
[16:37] Falcon Linden: Well, we've fixed some major bugs on the pathfinding regions
[16:37] Falcon Linden: like the one where nothing worked for 24 hours
[16:37] Falcon Linden: that was a fun one
[16:37] xstorm Radek: hi Falcon
[16:37] Vincent Nacon: nice
[16:38] Falcon Linden: I'd also like to remind folks about the upcoming agni beta
[16:38] Rex Cronon: an pathfind object that targets andrew would be very useful if u rezz in the wrong place:)
[16:38] Vincent Nacon: do tell
[16:38] Rex Cronon: hi falcon
[16:38] Falcon Linden: if you're interested, e-mail pathfinding-beta@lindenlab.com
[16:38] Falcon Linden: you must own a full region to participate in the beta
[16:38] xstorm Radek: OMG no no not beta agni
[16:38] Andrew Linden: BTW, it looks like FurNation Hell might be back up.
[16:38] Vincent Nacon: ..
[16:39] Falcon Linden: Also, in that beta, we've reduced the limits on llCastRay
[16:39] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Seems to be according to the reporter script I have in IRC.
[16:39] xstorm Radek: thats good
[16:39] Andrew Linden: Yes, this would be pre-RC beta on agni, sorta like the Havok4 voluntary channel, or the early mesh beta.
[16:40] Falcon Linden: right. A lot has changed, so we want lots of testing and lots of participation :)
[16:40] Johan Laurasia: sorta grease it in slow
[16:40] Vincent Nacon: Falcon: sent
[16:40] Andrew Linden: Falcon, don't you mean we've "removed the limits on llCastRay()" ?
[16:40] Falcon Linden: but mainly I'm here to see if anyone has tried the new pathfinding viewer
[16:40] xstorm Radek: if i remember right there is some linden lab land you can put that beta on falcon lol
[16:40] Johan Laurasia: got it.
[16:40] Falcon Linden: Andrew: naah, it still returns RC_ERR_ something something about bad region performance
[16:41] Vincent Nacon: no but I'm working out some projects for it
[16:41] Techwolf Lupindo: Can't. It is still a 'sekrit' project and the code is not avaiblle for us to try.
[16:41] Falcon Linden: Techwolf: you mean TPV?
[16:41] MartinRJ Fayray: yes
[16:41] Falcon Linden: why would we give out code that we don't even know works? :P
[16:41] Falcon Linden: try out our viewer first
[16:41] Techwolf Lupindo LOL
[16:41] Kallista Destiny shudders
[16:41] Techwolf Lupindo: So WE can fix bugs.
[16:41] Vincent Nacon: yeah, duh. Beta!
[16:42] Techwolf Lupindo: :-)
[16:42] Falcon Linden: Techwolf: pffft ;)
[16:42] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: LOL
[16:42] Falcon Linden: users don't fix bugs, they make bugs :)
[16:42] FadeOut Razorfen: Oh hey falcon, glad you made it... I was digging more info about rough rotation changes at pathfinding, tried to closely inspect how pathfinding exactly works, and came up with this https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/PATHBUG-57 , i can't do anything to work around this glitch, and it is going to cause problems in my upcoming project... help pls ? XD Oh also i've tested viewer... it works, didn't notice any bugs
[16:42] xstorm Radek: if i had my way there be obly one viewer for second life lol
[16:42] Falcon Linden: fadeout: yeah, I think I found something related to the problem and "fixed" it
[16:42] Falcon Linden: try it again tomorrow
[16:42] FadeOut Razorfen: sweeeet
[16:42] FadeOut Razorfen: love u
[16:43] Techwolf Lupindo: Remember, it took us about a week to code up a custom viwer so a major shop owner can log in due to corrupte inventorty. Shop owner was very happy. LL support took another month to fix it.
[16:43] Vincent Nacon: too far
[16:43] Falcon Linden: that said, last I used this code we could a crash very rarely that made no sense
[16:43] Falcon Linden: so....
[16:43] Falcon Linden: techwolf: I was just joking. Honestly, TPV integration is outside my jurisdiction
[16:43] xstorm Radek: falcon may i try to crash it ?
[16:43] Techwolf Lupindo chuckles
[16:43] Falcon Linden: xstorm: no.
[16:43] Vincent Nacon: if it's beta, yes
[16:43] xstorm Radek: lol
[16:43] xstorm Radek: ok
[16:43] Falcon Linden: but if you own a region on agni and want to participate, you can crash your region!
[16:43] Falcon Linden: :)
[16:44] MartinRJ Fayray: count how many you have corrupted with tpv -.-
[16:44] xstorm Radek: aaawww
[16:44] Techwolf Lupindo: Falcon, you know things are bad when jokes are taken somewhat sercially due to how close to the truth it is. :-)
[16:44] Vincent Nacon: Falcon, everyone knows it's ok to crash the beta grid
[16:44] Falcon Linden: seriously, once we're a bit more stable and ready to handle those kinds of issues, we'll let you know
[16:44] Vincent Nacon: :P
[16:44] Falcon Linden: vincent: if it crashes, that's okay. Trying to crash it by just rezzing a hwole lot of junk is not :)
[16:44] xstorm Radek: ;)
[16:44] Vincent Nacon: oh we call that "griefing"
[16:45] Vincent Nacon: two different things
[16:45] Andrew Linden: Yeah, you can crash the beta grid. We've got some code with two or three crash fixes in it (from today) that has yet to be deployed to aditi though.
[16:45] Vincent Nacon: :P
[16:45] TankMaster Finesmith trys to crash it by rezzing a bunch of purdy shuny stuff
[16:45] xstorm Radek: many ways people crash a region not only by over loading physics engines
[16:45] Falcon Linden: xstorm: well, if you want to try some of the other ways, sure. But these regions are running debug code which is at least 10x slower than normal
[16:46] Techwolf Lupindo: Yea, crash a regine by holding a popular office hour. :-)
[16:46] Falcon Linden: so they'll be susceptable to slowdown-based crashes
[16:46] Kallista Destiny: Martin, as far as we can tell 0.
[16:46] xstorm Radek: oh ouch
[16:46] Techwolf Lupindo: Get about 60-70 agents...it will crash sometime. llol
[16:46] Vincent Nacon: 70 on homestead would do it
[16:46] Kallista Destiny: that is very case of inventory cooruption has in the end been du to errors on the Asset servers.
[16:46] Vincent Nacon: but not normal sim
[16:47] Vincent Nacon: it'll be slow but hardly crash
[16:47] Falcon Linden: in any case
[16:47] Falcon Linden: anyone have questions/comments on the pathfinding stuff?
[16:47] xstorm Radek: so some of the thing i know will freez or crash them i bet ok when its perfect on aditi i will give it a test
[16:47] Falcon Linden: anyone build anything cool?
[16:47] Vincent Nacon: any progress on collision event?
[16:47] Johan Laurasia: I downloaded the path viewer
[16:47] Falcon Linden: vincent: done
[16:47] Johan Laurasia: crashed after a few minutes
[16:47] Vincent Nacon: ahh what about the filter stuff I bugged you about?
[16:48] Falcon Linden: johan: did you submit a report, etc?
[16:48] Falcon Linden: vincent: out of scope for pathfinding, but a good idea for maintainence
[16:48] Johan Laurasia: No, I didn't have the time, but I'll go back and see if I can recreate it, and if I can, I'll file.
[16:48] Vincent Nacon: aye
[16:49] Vincent Nacon: it may not be part of pathfinding but we're gonna need it if we're gonna define our AI bots
[16:49] Falcon Linden: why?
[16:49] Vincent Nacon: why not?
[16:49] Falcon Linden: ...
[16:49] xstorm Radek: lol
[16:49] Vincent Nacon: we only have one string filter
[16:49] Vincent Nacon: we need more than that
[16:50] MartinRJ Fayray: Andrew: This one has been closed this week, although it's marked as 'working on it' due to no update within 12 months: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-8761? - are there any news?
[16:50] JIRA-helper: [#VWR-8761] Cannot delete object description.
[16:50] Falcon Linden: vincent: for now, there are other ways to identify objects
[16:51] Vincent Nacon: oh I know but it would be nice to narrow down collision hog
[16:51] Vincent Nacon: performance wise
[16:51] Falcon Linden: I agree. Even nicer would be a way of filtering other than strings
[16:51] Johan Laurasia: slice me off a chunk of that collision hog
[16:52] Vincent Nacon: ah what else?
[16:52] Andrew Linden: Huh MartinRJ, that sounds like a viewer bug, but then it shouldn't have been hard to fix.
[16:52] Falcon Linden: like llSetCollisionGroup(integer) and then being able to filter on some number or set of numbers
[16:52] Andrew Linden: I might be able to verify that it is viewer or not (in my copius spare time).
[16:52] Andrew Linden: I'll make a note and see if I get a moment to look at it.
[16:52] MartinRJ Fayray: please, yes
[16:52] Vincent Nacon: oh yeah... is line of sight based on Raycast?
[16:52] Draconis Neurocam: i imagine it wouldn't be entirely hard to at least give collisions the same filters sensor has, which in themselves are limiting, but still better
[16:53] Vincent Nacon: in pathfinding's purse and evade mode
[16:53] Falcon Linden: it's a two-step check
[16:54] Chieron Tenk: the description bug probably is a side effect of removing (no Description) with the viewer not being notified of that change ;)
[16:54] Falcon Linden: if looks for either a direct path along the navmesh or a raycast from the top-center of your AABB to the top-center of the target's
[16:54] Falcon Linden: but we could change that in the future to be more accurate
[16:54] Vincent Nacon: hmm cause I was wondering if we could control their line of sight
[16:55] Falcon Linden: in what way?
[16:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[16:55] Vincent Nacon: distance and angle range
[16:55] Vincent Nacon: and facing
[16:55] Falcon Linden: that doesn't make sense
[16:55] Falcon Linden: it doesn't /look/ for the target
[16:55] Andrew Linden: The sensor runs at some fixed rate that is controlled by our code, whereas the collision event frequency is less deterministic, and the events can occur at a much faster rate.
[16:55] Falcon Linden: really it knows exactly where the target is
[16:55] Vincent Nacon: err...hang on
[16:55] Falcon Linden: it's just that it ignores that information if it doesn't have line of sight to that position
[16:56] Andrew Linden: We wouldn't want to put anything too expensive in the per-collision handlers.
[16:56] Rex Cronon: if 2 nav meshes share the same place but r slightly different, will there be problems with bots bumping into eachother?
[16:56] Vincent Nacon: ok I'm talking about REQUIRE_LINE_OF_SIGHT in Pursue and Evade mode
[16:56] Falcon Linden: andrew: we could filter on the C++ side during the LSL event execution and count the time against the script
[16:56] Falcon Linden: vincent: yes, I know
[16:56] xstorm Radek: less is more at times is it not ?
[16:57] Falcon Linden: rex: you only have one nav mesh per region
[16:57] Vincent Nacon: ok maybe I'm confused how it use its sight
[16:57] Falcon Linden: vincent: internally, our code knows where everything is all the time
[16:57] Rex Cronon: i understood u can stackup navmeshes in same region
[16:57] Vincent Nacon: that I understand
[16:57] Falcon Linden: if you enable that flag, we simply don't use that information unless there is either:
[16:57] Falcon Linden: (a) a direct path along the navmesh between the pursuer and target OR
[16:58] Andrew Linden: actually that is a good point Vincent, we already throttle the true collision events that arrive at the LSL script's event handler.
[16:58] Falcon Linden: (b) an unobstructed line from the top center of the pursuer to the top cneter of the target
[16:58] Falcon Linden: does that make sense?
[16:58] Falcon Linden: we don't actually simulate the process of searching for the target. We just check whether a search could have succeeded
[16:58] Vincent Nacon: so... we may need to override that somehow
[16:59] Falcon Linden: Rex: you can have multiple surfaces that are pathfinding enabled, but they're all part of one mesh that is self consistent
[16:59] Falcon Linden: vincent: override what?
[16:59] Rex Cronon: ok
[16:59] Vincent Nacon: or just stick with RayCast and Navigate
[16:59] xstorm Radek: hhhhmmmmm sounds like some one can use that to exsploit a region
[17:00] MartinRJ Fayray: My last agenda item was: We noticed that physics behave irrational when you have 4 physical cubes on top of each other. They don't stop wobbling back and forth once they have an initial motion, I really expect them to stop. I can't play jenga this way :) sadly. Wich worked before.
[17:00] Vincent Nacon: I'm trying to break down into parts in AI form to know when and what to look for
[17:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[17:00] Falcon Linden: martinrj: where did you see that?
[17:00] MartinRJ Fayray: "Place four 1x1x1m sized default prims on top of each other and make them physical. Give them a slight kick. They will keep wobbling/swinging back and forth forever!"
[17:00] Johan Laurasia: jenga lol
[17:00] Vincent Nacon: or for short, assume I'm trying to make a Police officer hunting down a player in dense city
[17:00] MartinRJ Fayray: you can test that yourself
[17:01] Falcon Linden: on agni or on aditi?
[17:01] MartinRJ Fayray: agni
[17:01] Andrew Linden: What region?
[17:01] MartinRJ Fayray: today, any region, the main server
[17:01] Flip Idlemind: On top of eachother as in stacked? Or as in violating Pauli Exclusion?
[17:01] Vincent Nacon: oh yeah, they do keep rocking back and forth
[17:01] Vincent Nacon: even my barrel does that here
[17:01] Falcon Linden: vincent: okay, and what's wrong with our llPursue? You don't really want them to really search
[17:01] Falcon Linden: what you want is to write some LSL that decides, already knowing where the target is, whether it's fair to go after them or not
[17:01] Johan Laurasia: llKindaLookFor()
[17:01] Vincent Nacon: err hmm
[17:02] xstorm Radek: hhhhhmmmmm on that note im off laters all
[17:02] Falcon Linden: and, if not, basically wanders around
[17:02] Chieron Tenk: we were playing Jenga and sometimes the bouncing didnt stop, but got worse, a tower of a few prims can wobble back and forth for quite some time
[17:02] MartinRJ Fayray: yeah too much lag here.
[17:02] Kallista Destiny: sounds like there is no friction. or insufficient friction.
[17:02] Vincent Nacon: or not...
[17:02] Vincent Nacon: it was doing that here last meeting
[17:02] Chieron Tenk: base friction. however, the objects do not actually slide close to each other
[17:02] Vincent Nacon: here we go
[17:02] Vincent Nacon: it's rocking now
[17:03] Vincent Nacon: yup
[17:03] MartinRJ Fayray: i believe that's not possible to test that here
[17:03] MartinRJ Fayray: too much lag
[17:03] Vincent Nacon: it's still moving
[17:03] Chieron Tenk: see the larger tower?
[17:03] MartinRJ Fayray: we tested it on mainland
[17:03] Vincent Nacon: oy...
[17:03] MartinRJ Fayray: and on private estates
[17:03] Flip Idlemind: Oooh it's like perpetual motion
[17:03] Chieron Tenk: it was rocking like that for 15minutes at least
[17:03] Vincent Nacon: yup
[17:03] Kallista Destiny: no friction
[17:03] Falcon Linden: Andrew: $50 says that if we make a change to fix that, it'll break content
[17:03] FadeOut Razorfen: oh, about [16:47] Falcon Linden: anyone build anything cool? --- i'm scripting BVH parser for second life prim animation c: (sorry was late on that, crashed)
[17:03] Falcon Linden: they stopped.
[17:04] Kallista Destiny: I won't take that bet.
[17:04] Falcon Linden: Fadeout: I meant with pathfinding, but cool! :)
[17:04] Falcon Linden: actually
[17:04] FadeOut Razorfen: okays XD
[17:04] Falcon Linden: ONLY cool if your prims are physics type NONE
[17:04] Vincent Nacon: still rocking
[17:04] Falcon Linden: otherwise, I'll hunt you down.
[17:04] FadeOut Razorfen: :o
[17:04] FadeOut Razorfen: okay :D
[17:04] Falcon Linden: :)
[17:04] Falcon Linden: all right, gotta run
[17:04] Vincent Nacon: take care
[17:04] Falcon Linden: thanks folks!
[17:04] Rex Cronon: tc
[17:05] Squirrel Wood: Run, Falcon, Run!
[17:05] TankMaster Finesmith: have a great weekend, falcon
[17:05] Kallista Destiny: I see it as finaly damped out
[17:05] Moundsa Mayo: Andrew, Falcon, thanks for your time!
[17:05] TankMaster Finesmith: have a great weekend, andrew
[17:05] Rex Cronon: tc andrew
[17:06] Rex Cronon: tc everybody
[17:06] Rex Cronon: have a nice day all. bye
[17:06] FadeOut Razorfen sets physics from convex to none XD
[17:06] Kallista Destiny: Dasvidanya
[17:06] MartinRJ Fayray: tested in 12.03.20.251556 AND Second Life RC BlueSteel 12.03.20.251556
[17:06] Moundsa Mayo: This construction used to keep moving farther and farther until it tore itself apart.
[17:06] Andrew Linden: hrm... ok yeah, it looks like the 4-stack of 1^3 boxes doesn't settle
[17:06] MartinRJ Fayray: it was rocking like this 15+ minutes
[17:06] Andrew Linden: that might be hard to fix, as Falcon mentioned
[17:06] MartinRJ Fayray: I mean main server and RC
[17:06] MartinRJ Fayray: xD
[17:06] Andrew Linden: but only if we care about not breaking lots of other stuff ;-)
[17:06] MartinRJ Fayray: Second Life Server 12.02.24.249991
[17:06] Andrew Linden: We'll think about it.
[17:07] Andrew Linden: thanks for coming everyone
[17:07] Keli Kyrie: Thank you Andrew
[17:07] MartinRJ Fayray: Goodbye
[17:07] Nalates Urriah: thx
[17:07] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Enjoy your weekend, Andrew.
[17:07] Chieron Tenk: thx, tc andrew
[17:07] Vincent Nacon: we all have to keep in mind that Havok is a physical "GAME" engine, not some science research for atomic level
[17:08] MartinRJ Fayray: *nods*
[17:08] Vincent Nacon: so we may have to tweak physic a bit with script
[17:08] MartinRJ Fayray: but it brakes my slinshot game
[17:08] MartinRJ Fayray: and the very simplest jenga game
[17:08] MartinRJ Fayray: slingshot*
[17:08] MartinRJ Fayray: lag lag
[17:08] Vincent Nacon: break Jenga or add more challenge?
[17:09] Vincent Nacon: :P
[17:09] Chieron Tenk: and probably some older stuff that actually expected the older physics behavior
[17:09] MartinRJ Fayray: so we can create our own jenga-physics
[17:09] MartinRJ Fayray: cool :]
[17:09] Vincent Nacon: take care all
[17:10] MartinRJ Fayray: take care Vincent
[17:10] Moundsa Mayo: There it went - lost a link
[17:10] Squirrel Wood: http://outerra.blogspot.com/ ^^
Simulator_User_Group
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