Open Source Meeting/2008-03-20

Open Source Meeting
== Agenda ==
# Update from the Lindens (standing item) - Rob Linden
# Copyleft/share-alike permission for SL Items (http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-2571) - Opensource Obscure
# VWR-729, "Viewer's Locale handling pretty much sucking in fundamental ways", any suggestions from the OSS community on what to do and how to improve the situation with locale handing? - Michelle2 Zenovka
== Transcript ==
* [14:01] Rob Linden: hi folks
* [14:01] Carjay McGinnis: Hello Rob
* [14:01] Harleen Gretzky: Howdy
* [14:02] Rob Linden: reminder for everyone: transcripts will be posted on wiki.secondlife.com
* [14:04] Rob Linden: there's an agenda on the wiki, but it looks like it's leftover from last week:
* [14:04] Rob Linden: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source_Meeting/Agenda
* [14:06] Seg Baphomet: 'sup?
* [14:06] Carjay McGinnis: ello Seg
* [14:06] Squirrel Wood: /ao off
* [14:07] Rob Linden: well, let's get started. we can have updates from the Lindens first, I guess
* [14:08] Rob Linden: I'll go first this time
* [14:08] Rob Linden: we got accepted into Google Summer of Code since our meeting last week, I think
* [14:09] Rob Linden: I can't say I've done too much on that front since then. i did refresh the wiki a little bit today
* [14:09] Seg Baphomet: Neat.
* [14:09] Q Linden: please point likely students at us
* [14:09] Seg Baphomet: Hrm, wonder if I qualify...
* [14:10] Harleen Gretzky: Is there a wiki URL?
* [14:10] Soft Linden: Are we only after Google SoC contacts at this point? I don't know if the regular intern program has room for some open source work as well
* [14:10] Liana Linden: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Google_SoC_2008
* [14:10] Q Linden: and for the program as a whole
* [14:11] Q Linden: i believe we're also after normal interns. at least we are in Boston
* [14:11] Rob Linden: we've also got more traditional internships available as well
* [14:11] Rob Linden: (paid)
* [14:12] Seg Baphomet: Hmmm.
* [14:13] Rob Linden: we don't have anything on the website, yet, but if you know anyone who is interested, send them my way
* [14:14] Rob Linden: I'm about to create a new JIRA project for LLMozlib
* [14:14] Rob Linden: issues will have "MOZ-" as a prefix, most likely
* [14:15] Carjay McGinnis: it's great that it's now developed in the "open", I like that
* [14:15] Rob Linden: other than that, I've been working on a bunch of policy, legal and other inwardly focused stuff
* [14:15] Liana Linden: Ditto that.
* [14:16] Liana Linden: My update is: Hosted AWG this week.
* [14:16] Liana Linden: Working on CC By-SA 3.0 upgrade
* [14:18] Liana Linden: Anyone else?
* [14:18] Soft Linden: Main thing for me this week is running through some of the branches and getting them building on all three platforms for standard compiler/option configurations... a couple had gotten a bit crufty. I've also taken in a bunch of the non-mainstream build issues (gcc 4.1, no-mozlib, etc) and applied the 1.19.2 tag to see if they can't borrow a little priority by release affiliation. I'm picking off a few, experimenting to see if other viewer devs pay more attention this way.
* [14:19] Saijanai Kuhn: I rewrite the legacy login part of strawman login to be in the same form of Zero's draft document. ZEro's document has a few flaws in that partr
* [14:19] Saijanai Kuhn: working on merging the video audio and chat logs of the awg meeting into some format that most people can use
* [14:19] Soft Linden: I'm also starting to create some open source related goals for Q2. I could use input on areas where people think we're lagging and could use regular attention, aside from the general patch acceptance rate I want to lean on. Feel free to drop me notes at soft@lindenlab.com if you can think of something that's making you itchy. I'd really like to get to where 2/3 of my time is open source related work this quarter; specific goals/duties help justify this.
* [14:19] Saijanai Kuhn: Tao's .flv files online aren't accessable to a lot of people
* [14:20] Soft Linden: It for me.
* [14:20] Rob Linden: any other Lindens want to contribute to the "updates from Lindens" section fo this meeting?
* [14:21] Saijanai Kuhn: ooops sorry. DIdn't realize this was LInden section ;-)
* [14:21] Prospero Linden: I have been fully internally focused as with every week :)
* [14:21] Prospero Linden: Attended AWG, but yesterday was rolling restarts and such
* [14:21] Rob Linden: Saijanai: no worries....actually, we should open the floor to anyone doing work on the Second Life codebase or architecture
* [14:22] Liana Linden: Yes, I'd like to hear community updates.
* [14:24] Rob Linden: back on Google SoC: the ideas page is pretty sparse
* [14:24] Rob Linden: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Google_SoC_2008
* [14:25] Rob Linden: the theme of the application was integration with other projects
* [14:25] Rob Linden: and, as you saw, I also fired up a discussion with the Crystal Space folks
* [14:25] Rob Linden: (and I can't spell "foliage")
* [14:27] Rob Linden: other ideas about both projects we should builld bridges to, and possible Google SoC projects that could come out of that?
* [14:29] Rob Linden: that must be a "no"
* [14:30] Rob Linden: tough crowd today
* [14:30] Liana Linden: :-)
* [14:31] Rob Linden: on the foliage idea: now that I've actually subscribed to the list and reposted, there's some discussion going on on the crystal-main mailing list
* [14:31] Rob Linden: any comments on that, or anything else anyone wants to discuss?
* [14:32] Seg Baphomet: I'd like to know what SpeedTree does that's special.
* [14:32] Rob Linden: purty tree fast
* [14:32] Soft Linden: Looks good and fast, that's really it.
* [14:32] Seg Baphomet: Near as I can tell, much of its appeal seems to be it has a large library of pre-existing trees.
* [14:33] Seg Baphomet: I dunno, could probably tell a lot by looking at it.
* [14:33] Soft Linden: This might be a better question for the mailing list. The graphics guys aren't usually at the open source office hours.
* [14:33] Seg Baphomet: None of the game's I've been playing lately use SpeedTree though...
* [14:34] Soft Linden: We can hypothesize quite a bit, but wouldn't know the specific things drawing them to it.
* [14:34] Harleen Gretzky: Didn't Linden trees originally come from Speedtree?
* [14:34] Seg Baphomet: The Source engine has its own system.
* [14:34] Soft Linden: Not that I know of. But skeletal references have been there for as long as the code's been open. I think it's been an intended feature for a long, long time.
* [14:35] Seg Baphomet: All I've really seen is billboarded sprites. Technology dating from Doom....
* [14:35] Seg Baphomet: It's just that now we can draw... quite a few of them now. :)
* [14:35] Prospero Linden: Hey -- we should also get all the Doom monsters as built-ins for the client, addressable by LSL and the like.
* [14:35] Kooky Jetaime: Roflol
* [14:35] Harleen Gretzky: There website says SL uses them
* [14:36] Carjay McGinnis: well, the plants look nice
* [14:36] Carjay McGinnis: moving and all
* [14:36] Soft Linden: So far as I know, LL licensed it some time back. But no use.
* [14:37] Soft Linden: Again though - good question for sldev. We'll point graphic guys at it - this would be everday knowledge for them.
* [14:37] Seg Baphomet: HL2 Episode 2 look puuuuurty at any rate. Even on my hardware...
* [14:37] Kooky Jetaime: crosses hands... can't wait for HL2E3
* [14:38] Tegg Bode: Hmm as long as the monsters can move better than vehicles in SL :)
* [14:38] Rob Linden: in other news: Beast Linden has started updating the top crash reports page: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Crash_Reports
* [14:39] Carjay McGinnis: they better be able to cross region boundaries
* [14:39] Carjay McGinnis: oh, I didn't know such a page existed
* [14:39] Carjay McGinnis: cool
* [14:40] Rob Linden: it'd had gotten pretty crufty
* [14:40] Soft Linden: One thing we used to do was create issues for different stack signatures so people could discuss these crashes or provide fixes. Would be nice if it included that still.
* [14:41] Soft Linden: Looks like Dan used to do that
* [14:41] Carjay McGinnis: discuss crashes?
* [14:42] Soft Linden: Yes. Trying to figure out how they're happening where looking at the code doesn't show something obvious like unchecked pointer derefs, etc
* [14:43] Carjay McGinnis: ok, well, usually you need a bit more than the stack trace to decide what happened
* [14:43] Soft Linden: Can ping Beast about that
* [14:43] Soft Linden: Yar, but it was fruitful in the past. A *lot* of Nicholaz work was based off of those.
* [14:44] Kooky Jetaime: Well
* [14:44] Kooky Jetaime: What about incorporating Nick's crash statistics into your own?
* [14:44] Seg Baphomet: I wish I could run valgrind.
* [14:45] Soft Linden: What's in the way of valgrind?
* [14:45] Seg Baphomet: Well, it makes the OpenGL drivers unhappy and its so slow you can't log in.
* [14:46] Soft Linden: I think you can exclude some libs from analysis. Might ask about that on list, or search the archives. I know Dale and others have run valgrind in the past.
* [14:46] Soft Linden: Wouldn't want it for every session, but should still be usable (I hope!)
* [14:47] Carjay McGinnis: tried it once but lost patience waiting for the login to appear *g*
* [14:47] Seg Baphomet: Hmmm. I wonder how much overheard mudflap creates...
* [14:47] Soft Linden: https://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/2007-April/001420.html
* [14:48] Soft Linden: Some discussion about running valgrind from a year back. This may be the only discussion.
* [14:48] Soft Linden: Not that I imagine the bit on sanitizing fmod affects your build much :)
* [14:48] Seg Baphomet: There's a buffer overrun lurking somewhere. It would be so much easier to find with valgrind...
* [14:49] Carjay McGinnis: ah, you got these strange crashes, too?
* [14:49] Seg Baphomet: Client's gone highly unstable lately.
* [14:50] Carjay McGinnis: 20-30 bytes changed at random, anywhere, nothing to point where the data originated from
* [14:50] Saijanai Kuhn: thought some folks were starting to use some of Appe's new programming utilities on the mac version. Are these platform specific bugs?
* [14:50] Carjay McGinnis: had that a few time a while ago, but not recently
* [14:50] Soft Linden: Seems to be one somewhere in decoding parcel info. I know Whoops Babii is running up against that, talking with the parcel media folks this very second.
* [14:50] Kooky Jetaime: I'm using 1.19.1.1, about to switch to 1.19.1.2
* [14:50] Seg Baphomet: Thing is, I suspect it may have something to do with my removal of -fno-strict-aliasing.
* [14:50] Seg Baphomet: slviewer is full of evil, evil code.
* [14:51] Kooky Jetaime: Just out of curiosity, Am I the only one having problems with opening notecards?
* [14:51] Carjay McGinnis: what kind of problems? didn't open too many recently
* [14:51] Kooky Jetaime: The window forms mangled
* [14:51] Kooky Jetaime: once I resize it, it forms a normal window
* [14:51] Squirrel Wood: problem as in the window that pops up being smaller than small and totally... weirded out?
* [14:51] Kooky Jetaime: Yep
* [14:51] Seg Baphomet: I actually just tried building a client with -fno-strict-aliasing but it doesn't even want to start...
* [14:51] Soft Linden: Kooky, which version? I think 1.19.1.2 has a related fix.
* [14:51] Squirrel Wood: happens when you minimize a notecard window, then close it. next one will be mangled
* [14:51] Soft Linden: That was released today, and I've dropped source already.
* [14:52] Squirrel Wood: RC2 still has that bug
* [14:52] Carjay McGinnis: hm, think I saw something like that but not too often or maybe just once
* [14:52] Kooky Jetaime: Wasn't this a bug back in the 1.18 branch at some point?
* [14:52] Carjay McGinnis: I'm on maint-render-2 for a while now
* [14:52] Rob Linden: / brb
* [14:53] JetZep Zabelin: a similar bug is happenning with opening textures
* [14:53] Soft Linden: What's the texture issue?
* [14:53] Squirrel Wood: With RC2 you may experience this on the first notecard you open after installing the client
* [14:53] Q Linden: sorry, gotta run
* [14:54] JetZep Zabelin: the window to display it is too small and difficult to close or drag out of the way
* [14:54] Harleen Gretzky: and are the JIRAs, the latter has pictures
* [14:54] JetZep Zabelin: doesnt always happen tho
* [14:54] Harleen Gretzky: [*http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-4887]
* [14:55] Kooky Jetaime: I don't have the window size problems on textures
* [14:55] Harleen Gretzky: If you click on teh gold resize tab the windows will expand
* [14:56] Rob Linden: / back
* [14:56] Kooky Jetaime: yea.... but ya shouldn't need to :)
* [14:56] Soft Linden: Hrm, VWR-4887 is marked as fixed in 1.19.1.2
* [14:56] Soft Linden: If you could post a specific repro and reopen, that would be great. I'll update the issue to point to the proper internal issue as well, right now it points to a dupe.
* [14:56] Kooky Jetaime: Soft - if it is, it's not in the release notes.
* [14:57] JetZep Zabelin: I'll see if I can dupe it
* [14:57] Soft Linden: Kooky - the imported issue was marked as a dupe against another. Without the backward link, it wouldn't have made the release notes.
* [14:57] Harleen Gretzky: Seems to be, I just tried it and the notecards came up correctly even after minimizing the first
* [14:57] JetZep Zabelin: repro i mean
* [14:57] Soft Linden: I'm cleaning up that linkage.
* [14:57] Kooky Jetaime: Ok.
* [14:57] Kooky Jetaime: wants the memory leaks fixed
* [14:58] Kooky Jetaime: I'm at 1.1GB
* [14:59] Kooky Jetaime: Did I redmap
* [14:59] Kooky Jetaime: sees its gone silent
* [14:59] Soft Linden: Still here.
* [14:59] Soft Linden: But I think we're about done - timing out here.
* [14:59] Carjay McGinnis: no
* [15:00] Liana Linden: Yah. Take care, all.
* [15:00] Soft Linden: Have a 3pm - zoomf!
* [15:00] JetZep Zabelin: scratch the texture bug =P looks like that texture problem was only for me yesterday when a lot of textures werent loading
* [15:00] Rob Linden: thanks all
* [15:01] JetZep Zabelin: *bye*