Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.01.29

Simulator_User_Group
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== List of Speakers ==
Andrew Linden 	Baker Linden 	Erick Gregan
Inara Pey 	Kaleb Silvercloud 	Kallista Destiny
Kelly Linden 	Lares Carter 	Lucia Nightfire
Martinrj Fayray	Melvin Starbrook 	Motor Loon
Nalates Urriah 	Qie Niangao 	RedMokum Bravin
Rex Cronon 	Sigma Avro 	Simon Linden
Sniper Siemens 	Tankmaster Finesmith	Whirly Fizzle
Wuf Shirabyoshi	Yuzuru Jewell 	
== Transcript ==
[12:03] Simon Linden: ok, I can start with the release news ...
[12:03] Simon Linden: This morning the RC server for threaded region crossings went out to most of the grid, onto the main channel
[12:03] Tankmaster Finesmith: \o/
[12:04] Erick Gregan: bonjour tout le monde
[12:04] Erick Gregan: hello everyone
[12:04] Melvin Starbrook: yes i noteiced
[12:04] Wuf Shirabyoshi: ola
[12:04] Rex Cronon: hello
[12:04] Melvin Starbrook: hihi
[12:04] Simon Linden: So this region has that new code ... there should be less lag when people leave the region
[12:04] Melvin Starbrook: was rooling restart?
[12:04] Melvin Starbrook: :)
[12:04] Simon Linden: right, it was the normal Tuesday deploy of an update and a rolling restart
[12:05] Simon Linden: Tomorrow all the RC channels will get new code
[12:05] Martinrj Fayray: I just saw an interesting behaviour after the restart. I was able to fly into the adjacent region although it wasn't online yet.
[12:05] Martinrj Fayray: it went like that for about 30 minutes until it finally came up
[12:06] Melvin Starbrook: you went into an offline region?
[12:06] Wuf Shirabyoshi: cool
[12:06] Lucia Nightfire: I've done that too, floated across a void region
[12:06] Melvin Starbrook: not siure ot was offline then...
[12:06] Wuf Shirabyoshi: i tried that 1000 times, and you do it just like that...
[12:06] Lucia Nightfire: you can crash taht way too sometimes, lol
[12:06] Melvin Starbrook: maybe map did not update?
[12:06] Simon Linden: I'm not sure what exactly you mean by that - could you still see the region and fly into it?
[12:06] Martinrj Fayray: I flew into it and my viewer showed 300+ coordinates
[12:07] Martinrj Fayray: and I was able to fly around in it
[12:07] Simon Linden: The viewer will get confused sometimes and extrapolate your motion for a lot farther than it probably should
[12:07] Rex Cronon: if your coordinates are over 256 than u aren'
[12:07] Martinrj Fayray: no I was able to freely move around there, but the coordinates were wrong
[12:07] Rex Cronon: t really in that region
[12:07] Martinrj Fayray: and there was nothing to see
[12:07] Martinrj Fayray: not in that.
[12:07] Martinrj Fayray: in a private full-sim main server region
[12:07] Martinrj Fayray: island
[12:08] Wuf Shirabyoshi: what did the coordinates say then?
[12:08] Martinrj Fayray: like 128, 300, 40
[12:08] Simon Linden: ok, well, if you see it again a good jira description would be helpful .. along with exact time so we might compare it to what's happening with the restart
[12:08] Martinrj Fayray: alright will try to do that
[12:08] Martinrj Fayray: thank you simon
[12:08] Simon Linden: THere is a known problem where a region will come back up, but it won't talk to the neighbor regions for a bit .. you might have gotten into that limbo
[12:09] Martinrj Fayray nods
[12:09] Martinrj Fayray: it looks like it, yes
[12:09] Kallista Destiny: Speaking of that, is there any plans to work on the region presence problem?
[12:10] Simon Linden: in that case, you'll be in one region, but can't see the neighbor, like Longfellow behind me. You can't cross, but you can TP directly there
[12:10] Simon Linden: It's on our list, Kallista ... I'll dig it up and check the latest status
[12:11] Kallista Destiny: Thank you
[12:11] Martinrj Fayray: well I was able to cross, and fly around in the 'offline' region
[12:11] Simon Linden: I'm not sure Andrew is going to make it today ... he was busy yesterday working on the interest list code that was in RC
[12:11] Bear Hunt Start: Bear Quest Start touched by Sigma Avro
[12:11] Martinrj Fayray: maybe my viewer just didn't get the updates after the region crossing
[12:11] Simon Linden: So the invisible table is open for topics or questions
[12:12] Simon Linden nods ... it could be something like that, Martin
[12:12] Rex Cronon: i get IMs while offline but i no longer get email notices about them:(
[12:12] Nalates Urriah: Simon, do you not see any of Logfellow? I can see it.
[12:13] Rex Cronon: if an object IMs i get email notice but i don't get a notice when an avatar IMs
[12:14] Sniper Siemens: Hi Andrew
[12:14] Sigma Avro: hi andrew!
[12:14] Andrew Linden: Hello, sorry I'm late.
[12:14] Qie Niangao: Hi Andrew, Baker
[12:14] Inara Pey: Hey, Andrew, Baker ?
[12:14] Rex Cronon: hello andrew
[12:14] Simon Linden: I can see it Nal, that was just an example
[12:14] Yuzuru Jewell: Hello, Andrew, Baker.
[12:14] Sniper Siemens: hello Baker
[12:14] Rex Cronon: greetings baker
[12:15] Baker Linden: hello everyone!
[12:15] Andrew Linden: What are we talking about?
[12:15] Martinrj Fayray: Hi Andrew and Baker
[12:15] Nalates Urriah: You...
[12:15] Tankmaster Finesmith: heya baker and andrew!
[12:15] Rex Cronon: so why do i get email notices only from objects IMs but not from avatar IMs?
[12:15] Nalates Urriah: Welll... that you were working in Interest List
[12:16] Simon Linden: I don't know, Rex .. I haven't heard of that problem
[12:16] Simon Linden: FWIW I've recieved IM emails today from residents
[12:16] Andrew Linden: Yeah, my interestlist work on Magnum has a couple problems
[12:16] Tankmaster Finesmith: wait, residents im you? :o
[12:16] Andrew Linden: but I've got some fixes that should go out in an update tomorrow
[12:17] Whirly Fizzle: I havnt seen any reports off offline IMs from residents not working recently - fwiw
[12:17] Rex Cronon: soemtimes it works but other times it doesn't. and is not like i get hundred of IMs from avatars
[12:18] Nalates Urriah: I'm getting IM/emails from residents...
[12:18] Sigma Avro: from when is it so for you Rex ?
[12:18] Nalates Urriah: Andrew, are those fixes going to the RC?
[12:18] Rex Cronon: i noticed it a few days aga
[12:18] Rex Cronon: ago*
[12:18] Andrew Linden: Yes Nalates.
[12:19] Nalates Urriah: Yay! Thx
[12:19] Andrew Linden: There are two fixes: (1) for bots who don't specify a valid draw distance and (2) keep ObjectUpdate packets within an ethernet MTU of 1500
[12:20] Andrew Linden: Someone pointed out in the forums that some common network pipes don't have MTU's smaller than 1500 bytes
[12:20] Andrew Linden: where MTU = maximum transfer unit (I think)
[12:20] Qie Niangao: Andrew, was #2 something that started with the interestlist changes, or might it have been a problem before, just exacerbated by the changes?
[12:21] Tankmaster Finesmith: that was me, andrew
[12:21] Tankmaster Finesmith: PPPoE has a MTU of 1492
[12:21] Andrew Linden: Qie, (2) was definitely new to the intrestlist... at least packets > 1500 bytes
[12:21] Qie Niangao: oh, okay, thanks.
[12:21] Erick Gregan: Hi, I'm constructor of aircraft in SL, and I am interested in the problem of crossing sim. Is what might be the problem?
[12:22] Tankmaster Finesmith: but shouldnt the server itself be discovering the max mtu for the connection and using that?
[12:22] Andrew Linden: as TankMaster pointed out, some common systems have smaller MTU's, so it may be that some people see this problem as a smaller level on SL all the time
[12:22] Andrew Linden: yes TankMaster, in an ideal world
[12:23] Lucia Nightfire: SL != ideal world yet, lol
[12:23] Andrew Linden: however, it would have to be fixed both server and viewer side
[12:23] Andrew Linden: well actually... we might be able to fix it server-side first
[12:23] Inara Pey: Does (1) impose a draw distance for those bots which don't specify one?
[12:24] Andrew Linden: it might be a bit of work, that 1500 byte MTU enforcement is sprinkled about in the C++ code
[12:24] Andrew Linden: yes Inara, the fix (1) will force a non-zero draw distance on bots
[12:24] Inara Pey: Ta ?
[12:24] Andrew Linden: however the minimum draw distance that it sets is 10m
[12:25] Tankmaster Finesmith: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_transmission_unit
[12:25] Sigma Avro: enough to talk
[12:25] Tankmaster Finesmith: Ethernet with LLC and SNAP, PPPoE - 1492
[12:25] Andrew Linden: yes, and most bots probably ignore most of the data that really depends on draw distance
[12:26] Simon Linden: it would be nice if bots that didn't use that info set those distances to minimize updates
[12:26] Tankmaster Finesmith: oh, this looks like may be part of the problem with mtu:
[12:26] Tankmaster Finesmith: The transmission of a packet on a physical network segment that is larger than the segment's MTU is known as jabber. This is almost always caused by faulty devices. Many network switches have a built-in capability to detect when a device is jabbering and block it until it resumes proper operation.
[12:27] Simon Linden: I wonder what "resumes proper operation" entails
[12:28] Andrew Linden: It might be worth looking into: do a survey of packet size range in a normal SL connection.
[12:28] Kallista Destiny: Stops Jabbering
[12:28] Tankmaster Finesmith: good question
[12:28] Kaleb Silvercloud: I have a quick..well..report about an anomaly with parcel options after the MTU discussion.
[12:29] Andrew Linden: go ahead Kaleb
[12:29] Kaleb Silvercloud: I found some anomalies in a homestead yesterday that was using the release server version. The entire sim was one parcel and on the parcel settings, script use was only set to allow land group members. I found small little 1 meter pockets in various places of the sim that allowed me to use scripted objects. I stumbled upon it by accident because I stepped into a pocket and some of my scripted items like a gun unholstered and such....the odd part was if I moved at the same x/y coordinates but like 5 meters below, it didn't work there....stepping 2 meters in the x direction and suddenly it worked there. It was rather strange.
[12:30] Qie Niangao: (this wouldn't be almost exactly 50m above ground level, by any chance?)
[12:30] Andrew Linden: Yeah Kaleb, I believe our homestead creators are using a misfeature (or feature, some would call it) of our parcel accounting system
[12:30] Rex Cronon: if u go around 74m some scripts start working
[12:30] Lucia Nightfire: are teh pockets, depressions in teh land and you were 50+ meters above those depressions?
[12:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[12:30] Andrew Linden: where the "parcel that contains the object" is the parcel under the root prim's geometric center
[12:31] Kaleb Silvercloud: well I found some at 65 meters above ground and at 45 meters
[12:31] Andrew Linden: and not necessarily the parcel that contains the majority of the object
[12:31] Kaleb Silvercloud: but yeah...I think I was at like 127/215/65 for one of them
[12:32] Andrew Linden: I believe that most of the parcels in a homestead region have partially restrictive script settings
[12:33] Andrew Linden: hrm... I wonder where that logic is that enables scripts to work at certain altitudes... I don't recall seeing it in the simulator
[12:34] Qie Niangao: (the no-script parcel setting only applies up to 50m above ground level, so if the terrain is uneven underneath, moving slightly back and forth could go in and out of that no-script zone.)
[12:34] Andrew Linden: but maybe it is there, Kelly or Simon might know about it
[12:34] Kaleb Silvercloud: ahh i see
[12:34] Andrew Linden: Ah yes, I believe Qie is right, we do a "height above the ground" check that goes straight down to the terrain
[12:35] Sigma Avro: is the height linked to the detailed terrain setting in region console ?
[12:35] Nalates Urriah: ...a no script region is only no script up to 50m above the ground?
[12:35] Simon Linden: I believe that's correct ... there is some interesting logic there to allow for "fly over" access
[12:35] Rex Cronon: i think that scripts r allowed above a specific height in order to allow plane to fly. right?
[12:35] Kaleb Silvercloud: I will need to check again but I was almost sure I wasn't able to use scripts in their skybox landing point high above the 50 meter range
[12:36] Qie Niangao: a no-script *region* is a different beast than a no-script *parcel*
[12:36] Simon Linden: Nal - the issue may be that they are using the parcel settings, with one huge parcel
[12:36] Andrew Linden: What Qie said.
[12:36] Nalates Urriah: Ah. OK Thx
[12:36] Whirly Fizzle: Doesnt it depend if scripts are disabled in about land or from estate too? I though estate disable was no scripts at any height. May be wrong :D
[12:37] Simon Linden: so in that case ... if the region owner really wants it to be no-script, they need to set that at the region level settings - but that's pretty severe
[12:37] Andrew Linden: Right, disabling scripts on the region supersedes the parcel settings, and prevents scripts at all heights.
[12:37] Lucia Nightfire: that can also be done at the parcel level too
[12:38] Kaleb Silvercloud: well that wasn't the case as they had doors and stuff that needed to open and close
[12:38] Sigma Avro: is the height linked to the detailed terrain setting in region console ?
[12:38] Simon Linden: No, it should be the actual terrain height
[12:39] Sigma Avro: but the actual is the detailed or the not detailed ?
[12:39] Kaleb Silvercloud: The sim in question was Mystic Shores. It's a space mining colony roleplay sim and they had scripts only allowed by group members to help combat lag people might bring in with their attachments.
[12:40] Andrew Linden: Sigma, I believe the height check is done against the "heightfield" data that is used to generate the terrain's collision mesh
[12:41] Andrew Linden: so it is the "detailed" data
[12:41] Qie Niangao: Kaleb, it's actually worse than that: if the script does llTakeControls() somewhere that scripts are enabled, it will keep working on no-script parcels at any height.
[12:41] Andrew Linden: we don't actually do a ray-trace against the terrain
[12:41] Andrew Linden: instead we compute the index into a heightfield of values, and interpolate
[12:41] Kallista Destiny: Qie that is so that AOs work
[12:42] Qie Niangao: Kallista, yeah, it's nice for many things... but it makes the no-script parcel setting sort of... whimsical.
[12:42] Qie Niangao: (for attachments)
[12:42] Lucia Nightfire: that can be overrided to block control perms scripts too
[12:43] Lares Carter: I ran into some anomaly too (different topic for after the script one).
[12:43] Andrew Linden: can it? I'm not on top of the resolution of the parcel options.
[12:43] Andrew Linden: go ahead Lares.
[12:44] Lares Carter: In a region that is also set to be covered by one huge parcels the about land tab shows that I got 18 prims out. But I have way more out for certain. Seems like the counter is wrong. I am ill-prepared so I don't have the server channel, but I think it's running on main.
[12:44] Andrew Linden: What is the region name?
[12:44] Lares Carter: "Ohana Haven"
[12:45] Sigma Avro: I have heard about this issue in a scripting group too
[12:45] Sigma Avro: recntly
[12:45] Rex Cronon: lares could it have something to do with how Land Impact is calculated?
[12:46] Lares Carter: It's mixed content. Some is mesh, some is prims, but almost all of it uses the Land Impact accounting system - so yes, could be related.
[12:46] Andrew Linden: Well "Ohana Haven" is on the main channel (Second Life Server).
[12:46] Andrew Linden: Yeah I wonder if you're seeing "land impact" rather than just prim count
[12:47] Andrew Linden: are the objects mesh?
[12:47] Lares Carter: Some, not all.
[12:47] Lares Carter: I can give you a detailed report after the meeting, Andrew.
[12:48] Lucia Nightfire: And I also have issues with server version 13.01.14.269010 with sim crashes immediately after scripted moderation functions such as send homes and temp bans.
[12:49] Lucia Nightfire: Is there a fix for that soon as its now on main channel as of today and will probably be on all channels tomorrow.
[12:49] Lucia Nightfire: I can just see alot of security systems crashing regions because of it.
[12:50] Sigma Avro: you mean modrators scripts are too heavy ?
[12:50] Lucia Nightfire: SEC-1204
[12:50] Andrew Linden: I'm not up to date on region crash modes. Maybe Kelly or Simon know about this one?
[12:51] Sigma Avro: this should be confidential, lol
[12:51] Motor Loon: Mæstro wrote something about those Jiras also affected 12.12.18.268345 on the forums?
[12:51] Lucia Nightfire: that was another issue I thought was initally related, but its not
[12:51] Qie Niangao: Lucia, this is with llManageEstateAccess() only, right? not with the non-Estate functions?
[12:52] Lucia Nightfire: non-estate
[12:52] Qie Niangao: oh crap
[12:52] Kelly Linden: Lucia - We have been closely following crash modes on the server and suspect from investigation that the crashes you see are not (directly) attributable to the causes you see.
[12:52] Lucia Nightfire: I suspect its related to teh region cross code and not moderation functions, I mainly see the crash upon exit of the agent from teh sim after the moderation functions are used
[12:53] Sigma Avro: derzing has also impact on sim
[12:53] Kelly Linden: There is more happening than you are accounting for, but if you have a repro for a controlled situation: such as if you ban an account you own and the region crashes that would be a very useful repro.
[12:53] Sigma Avro: derezing
[12:54] Lucia Nightfire: I've submitted all teh info and pics I have of teh events as I've encountered them on that jira
[12:54] Lucia Nightfire: I havent' done controlled trials yet, but I probabyl will have to
[12:54] Simon Linden: thanks, we'll take a look
[12:54] Kelly Linden: Yes, those aren't reproable events and the logs from the crashes at those times do not indicate an issue with estate management tools.
[12:54] Kelly Linden: But definitely, thank you and we will continue to watch these closely.
[12:55] Lucia Nightfire: arigatou
[12:55] Rex Cronon: i have question. under what condition would a linked-set that has no meshes start to have an impact similarly to a linked set that has meshes?
[12:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[12:55] Rex Cronon: an land impact*
[12:56] Kelly Linden: Rex: using an alternate physics shape is one way.
[12:56] Kaleb Silvercloud: So that 50 meter no script limit should be added to http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Limits ? I didn't see it listed there if there's really a hard limit of 50 meters above terrain.
[12:56] Rex Cronon: i mean without actually the owner changing it
[12:57] RedMokum Bravin: As in Prokofy's blog, Rex?
[12:57] Rex Cronon: yes. i wonder if that is possible
[12:57] Kelly Linden: Kaleb I see the first item in the scripting category as covering that?
[12:58] Qie Niangao: If the object is scripted, that could change the physics type without the owner doing it directly.
[12:58] Kaleb Silvercloud: Ahh ok. Thanks Kelly. I thought it would be listed under land but under scripts does make sense
[12:59] Rex Cronon: i mean one day the LI says is 2 prims the next day says is 4 or more, and there were no changes made.
[12:59] Andrew Linden: I can't remember... does the land impact change if the object becomes dynamic? (it can tumble instead of being locked in place)
[13:00] Simon Linden: I don't _think_ so, Andrew
[13:00] Rex Cronon: if pathfinding is turned on does that change non-pysical objects into physical and suddenly their LI changes?
[13:00] Andrew Linden: no Rex
[13:00] Lucia Nightfire: taht should increase land impact afaik
[13:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[13:00] Nalates Urriah: As far as I know just having a script makes the difference. Rreading scripts to see if they are dynamic seems out side the accounting process acapabilties.
[13:00] RedMokum Bravin: Many things would topple over then Rex.
[13:01] Lucia Nightfire: I've seen 1 prim cubes ladn impact jump to 15 for beign pf chars
[13:01] Rex Cronon: well. is weird.
[13:01] Lucia Nightfire: granted I'm not a pf guru, but that seemed weird
[13:01] Andrew Linden: right, pathfinding characters have a minimum of 15 Land Impact, as I recall
[13:01] Whirly Fizzle: I thought all PF chars had a min LI of 15
[13:01] Nalates Urriah: Minimum cost of a PF is LI 15.
[13:02] Simon Linden: I need to go ... thanks everyone for coming today
[13:02] Erick Gregan: a
[13:02] Erick Gregan: I would like to address the problem of sim with vehicles crossing. Since the installation of "pathfinding" quality is deteriorated, do you think that there is a solution to fix this?
[13:02] Erick Gregan: I would like to address the problem of sim crossing with vehicles. Since the system of "pathfinding" Deteriorated quality is, do you think there is a solution That to fix this?
[13:02] Rex Cronon: i mean with pathfinding suddenly havok is aware of all prims that r not phantom
[13:02] Rex Cronon: tc simon
[13:02] Nalates Urriah: Thx Lindens
[13:02] Qie Niangao: Oh, hmmm... but changing to a character is a pretty big change... I wonder if a change made in the Pathfinding Linksets window could alter the Land Impact of the linkset... where somebody else can make those changes for movable objects.
Simulator_User_Group
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