User Experience Interest Group/Transcripts/2009-11-19

== Topic ==
User Experience Interest Group Discussion for November 19, 2009.
Topic: Future Topic Brainstorming.
== Summary ==
We brainstormed topics for future UXIG discussions:
* Reducing perceived lag (especially avatar movement).
* Meet on OSGrid to inspire discussion about interop/cross-grid issues.
* What OpenSim creators want in a viewer.
* Reducing UI presence to improve immersion.
* "Beyond SL": in what ways would viewers evolve if they weren't tied to SL?
* Integration with external services (Twitter, Flickr, online marketplaces, llPizza, etc.).
* Improving usability of online marketplaces, integrating them in the viewer.
* Reducing the viewer's footprint / improving performance and usability on lower-end hardware.
* Bugs / issues that affect a specific use case or demographic (builders, clothing creators, animators, models, shoppers, etc.).
* Hands-on interface discussion for third-party viewers
== Transcript ==
[15:11]	Jacek Antonelli: 	We're brainstorming topics for future meetings today, so if either of you have any ideas, go ahead :)
[15:11]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I've got none.
[15:11]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Well, almost none.
[15:11]	Hal Klaxon: 	I have one.
[15:12]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Go ahead.
[15:12]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Don't have it yet? I'll go then.
[15:12]	Hal Klaxon: 	back to the conversation on the SLUX mailing lsit about laggy movement.
[15:13]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Yeah. The client doesn't predict movement, it just takes what server gives it and trys to smooth it.
[15:13]	McCabe Maxsted waves 	McCabe Maxsted waves
[15:13]	Hal Klaxon: 	I'm sure there's a way to improve it by chaning the way the viewer works, but I'm not sure what.
[15:13]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Ahoy McCabe
[15:13]	Hal Klaxon: 	/changing/
[15:13]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Prediction routines inside the network layer.
[15:13]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hey Morgaine
[15:13]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hiya Jacek :-)
[15:13]	Hal Klaxon: 	hello
[15:13]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hi all
[15:14]	Jacek Antonelli: 	We're brainstorming topics for future meetings today
[15:14]	Hal Klaxon: 	If I hold down the W key for T seconds, I should move S*T meters forward.
[15:14]	Hal Klaxon: 	barring obsticals.
[15:15]	Hal Klaxon: 	(S is speed)
[15:15]	Geneko Nemeth: 	...
[15:15]	Hal Klaxon: 	I'm looking for a nice way to state it as a bug.
[15:16]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Well, I think it is a feature...
[15:17]	Hal Klaxon: 	Does anyone know what's really happening when your walkign speed slws down?
[15:17]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hrm. The viewer could assume that you start moving forward immediately, but it would be hard to sync that up with the server. There would probably be a lot of "rubber banding" (bouncing back to where the sim says you really are)
[15:17]	Geneko Nemeth: 	The server sends an object update packet for your avatar with a slower velocity.
[15:17]	Hal Klaxon: 	But why is your velocity slower?
[15:18]	Hal Klaxon: 	Becasue information got lost about your keystrokes?
[15:18]	Jacek Antonelli: 	How do you mean, when you slow down?
[15:18]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Because you bumped into something?
[15:18]	Hal Klaxon: 	no obsticals. a flat floor.
[15:18]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Because an object is execreting a force over you?
[15:18]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Uphills?
[15:18]	Garn Conover: 	ooga boog
[15:18]	Garn Conover: 	a
[15:18]	Hal Klaxon: 	lots of avatrs nearby, but not in your way.
[15:18]	Morgaine Dinova: 	For the topic brainstorm ... a sort of meta-topic: "Hold a meeting in OSgrid, as a prompt for ideas about interop and about grid cross-over issues."
[15:19]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Just give one second of tweening between what we think is the right position and the server's position then. Nobody will notice!
[15:19]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Sometimes the time dilation on the sim drops when there're too much physics stuff going on
[15:19]	Geneko Nemeth: 	And what OpenSim devs want to see in viewers!
[15:19]	Jacek Antonelli: 	In which case all movement slows down on the sim
[15:19]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Yeah, in that way the avatar rubber-bands, don't want to see that.
[15:19]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hi Garn
[15:20]	Garn Conover woofs 	Garn Conover woofs
[15:20]	Hal Klaxon: 	when rubberbanding happens, can't the viewer keep moving you towards where it knows you WANT to be?
[15:20]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Anyway. We could make that a topic for a future meeting, if you'd like? "Ways to reduce perceived lag", or something like that
[15:20]	Geneko Nemeth: 	That would be further away to the truth..
[15:20]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Preceived performance is important.
[15:21]	Jacek Antonelli earskritches Garn. Hi there 	Jacek Antonelli earskritches Garn. Hi there
[15:21]	Hal Klaxon: 	exactly!
[15:21]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Firefox developers apprantly think it's more important than real performance..
[15:21]	Garn Conover tilts head and thumps foot softly 	Garn Conover tilts head and thumps foot softly
[15:22]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay. And Morgaine suggested we have a meeting on OSGrid to inspire discussion about interop issues.
[15:22]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Anyway as I was'nt saying for the UXIG we could do stuff the UX lindens would do.
[15:22]	Geneko Nemeth: 	...
[15:22]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Alright.
[15:22]	Garn Conover: 	heya Tech
[15:22]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Go ahead, gen
[15:22]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Do stuff like discussing mockups for Imprudence.
[15:22]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Hi garn
[15:22]	Hal Klaxon: 	Waht is Imprudence?
[15:23]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Third pary viewers
[15:23]	Geneko Nemeth: 	New features and featurettes.
[15:23]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	party
[15:23]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Not just any third party viewer!
[15:23]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	I got Imprudence to work in my overaly for gentoo users.
[15:23]	Geneko Nemeth looks at Jacek's general direction. 	Geneko Nemeth looks at Jacek's general direction.
[15:23]	McCabe Maxsted: 	http://imprudenceviewer.org/ hax
[15:23]	Morgaine Dinova refreshes Tech's overlay 	Morgaine Dinova refreshes Tech's overlay
[15:23]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	But be forwarn, it based on 1.22.11 code, not 1.23.5.
[15:24]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Although that would probably change in two months...
[15:24]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Tech: that's a *good* think is some cases. It's made Imprudence very stable in Opensim!
[15:24]	Morgaine Dinova: 	thing*
[15:24]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I'm intentionally trying to keep UXIG from turning into "Imprudence Favoritism Hour", but we could have discussions about potential UI mockups for viewers in general
[15:25]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I don't see why it couldn't be "Imprudence Favoritism Hour" as long as the things discussed can be merged into other viewers as well.
[15:26]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Maybe once in a while. What are some other topic ideas?
[15:27]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Maybe more than once in a while.
[15:27]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Twice in a while?
[15:27]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Take a look at the past meetings for inspiration, maybe: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User_Experience_Interest_Group/Transcripts
[15:27]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Let the meetings have some actual work produced from it... even if just a little.
[15:27]	Geneko Nemeth: 	How about an art jam?
[15:28]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I think that's a really impressive transcripts list.
[15:28]	Jacek Antonelli: 	We could have discussions like the machinima ones, but for other aspects -- building, clothing design, animation, etc. Invite some representatives and talk about bugs and issues that affect them
[15:28]	Geneko Nemeth: 	It's been one year! Woot!
[15:28]	Jacek Antonelli: 	It has!
[15:28]	Garn Conover: 	getting 1.2 silly rss didn't notify me
[15:28]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Happy Birthday, UXIG!
[15:29]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Wahoo!
[15:29]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Garn: We haven't blogged about it yet
[15:30]	Geneko Nemeth: 	... and in the other direction maybe Imprudence could favour UXIG. Like, post some notices on the front page or something.
[15:31]	Jacek Antonelli: 	What are some other topics?
[15:31]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Anything in the UI bugging you lately? Anything you wish it could do?
[15:32]	Hal Klaxon: 	true fullscreen.
[15:32]	Hal Klaxon: 	get rid of the menu bar and everything.
[15:32]	Geneko Nemeth has one of those bugs swatted... but there are still lots. Not to mention he's also bugged in real life by blood-sucking bugs.	Geneko Nemeth has one of those bugs swatted... but there are still lots. Not to mention he's also bugged in real life by blood-sucking bugs.
[15:33]	Geneko Nemeth: 	More immersive experience... Yeah.
[15:33]	Hal Klaxon: 	do you know how to do fullscreen in Gnome?
[15:33]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Alt+Enter?
[15:33]	Jacek Antonelli: 	wb Garn
[15:33]	Garn Conover: 	still popups :(
[15:33]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Aw
[15:34]	Hal Klaxon: 	It's the /apps/metacity/window_keybindings/toggle_fullscreen keybinding.
[15:34]	Garn Conover: 	so whats new on here *sniffs*
[15:34]	Hal Klaxon: 	here?
[15:35]	Geneko Nemeth has never smelled more catty before. 	Geneko Nemeth has never smelled more catty before.
[15:35]	Geneko Nemeth: 	How about revisiting some of the earlier topics?
[15:35]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Any in particular that look interesting to revisit?
[15:36]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Not much. Sigh.
[15:36]	Garn Conover: 	on 1.2
[15:36]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I'm thinking about stuff that have been improved like minimap and radar.
[15:37]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Or things that when revisited could give a bit of different perspective...
[15:37]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Right
[15:37]	Morgaine Dinova: 	"Beyond SL" would be an interesting topic. Ie. cutting the bond with LL on viewers, and evolving viewers independently.
[15:38]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Interesting
[15:38]	Garn Conover: 	booo the minimap arrow is yellow lol
[15:39]	Garn Conover: 	i haz a skelly in this guy now lol
[15:39]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Baww... I'm hungry.
[15:39]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Maybe llGetPizza();?
[15:39]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehe
[15:39]	Geneko Nemeth: 	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlPizza
[15:40]	Morgaine Dinova: 	McCabe's fallen asleep. I'm about to as well
[15:40]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Hmm... so about llPizza()... intergration with outside the metaverse could be a topic?
[15:40]	Garn Conover facewashes 	Garn Conover facewashes
[15:40]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehe
[15:40]	Geneko Nemeth: 	What are you doing Garn Mweh Mweh! :O
[15:40]	Morgaine Dinova: 	lol Garn, ew
[15:40]	Garn Conover: 	tryin to wale him up!
[15:41]	Techwolf Lupindo lol 	Techwolf Lupindo lol
[15:41]	McCabe Maxsted: 	actually gotta run
[15:41]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Cya McCabe, tc :-)
[15:41]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Take care McCabe
[15:41]	Garn Conover: 	cya McCabe
[15:41]	McCabe Maxsted calls llGetRL() 	McCabe Maxsted calls llGetRL()
[15:41]	Garn Conover: 	lol
[15:41]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, integration outside SL... that could be stuff like Twitter and Flickr as well
[15:42]	Geneko Nemeth: 	And SLX? (Of course, SLX sux.)
[15:42]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah
[15:42]	Garn Conover: 	SLuX
[15:42]	Jacek Antonelli: 	heh
[15:42]	Garn Conover: 	;)
[15:42]	Jacek Antonelli: 	UXIG was almost going to be called SLUX
[15:42]	Garn Conover: 	>.<
[15:42]	Hal Klaxon: 	let you crop and scale screenshots from inside SL.
[15:43]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Ew
[15:43]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Things like that. And also, like web frontends. Like, who's online...
[15:43]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Actually, the mailing list *is* called SL-UX
[15:43]	Geneko Nemeth: 	maps... that kind of stuff. Things relating to your avatar when it's not online.
[15:43]	Garn Conover wonders if the arrow on the minimap is a new colour file line 	Garn Conover wonders if the arrow on the minimap is a new colour file line
[15:44]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Garn: Nah, for some reason LL decided to color that one arrow, out of all of them.
[15:44]	Garn Conover: 	well its the one just added, they used to all be yellow
[15:44]	Garn Conover: 	or some of em did
[15:44]	Hal Klaxon: 	Is there a way to make it always 9:00 inthe morning?
[15:45]	Geneko Nemeth: 	It's called the WindLight editor...
[15:45]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hal: In SL? You can use World > Environment Settings > Environment Editor
[15:45]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Then slide the time slider
[15:46]	Hal Klaxon: 	But doesn't it reset when you log off?
[15:46]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah
[15:46]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I don't think there's any way to make it stick permanently
[15:46]	Hal Klaxon: 	that should be an option.
[15:47]	Geneko Nemeth wants to expose more of Second Life's rendering options into that place, like glow, shadows, WindLight postproc, and such... 	Geneko Nemeth wants to expose more of Second Life's rendering options into that place, like glow, shadows, WindLight postproc, and such...
[15:47]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Any other topic ideas? How about non-UI things? Other aspects of the total user experience?
[15:48]	Geneko Nemeth: 	There is user experience outside the UI?
[15:48]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yep
[15:48]	Hal Klaxon: 	AO built into the viewer.
[15:48]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Built-in AO is a popular idea, yep
[15:48]	Garn Conover reads up 	Garn Conover reads up
[15:49]	Hal Klaxon: 	If it's popular, why hasn't it happened?
[15:49]	Geneko Nemeth: 	It has.
[15:49]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Emerald.
[15:49]	Hal Klaxon: 	Really? I can't get that one workign.
[15:49]	Garn Conover: 	because it needs 3rd party before LL does anything these days
[15:49]	Garn Conover: 	u guys hear about SL Mentors?
[15:49]	Jacek Antonelli: 	It hasn't happened in mainline SL because LL has other priorities. -_-
[15:49]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Yeah so what does that have to d-
[15:49]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Yeah, bet that's really damaging to the first hour experience.
[15:50]	Jacek Antonelli: 	They ought to just send newbies straight to NCI, heh. And start paying NCI's operational costs
[15:51]	Garn Conover: 	hehe well they are gonna start RHN again hopefully this time they keep it
[15:51]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I hope so
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli: 	How about things on the web site? Account information, transaction history, whatever. Anything there that needs some UX love?
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Blog, forums, anything
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Search
[15:52]	Hal Klaxon: 	why can't we get transaction history from inside the viewer?
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Good question
[15:52]	Hal Klaxon: 	At least for the current session.
[15:52]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Second Life? Not much we can do about that... but maybe about OpenSim grids?
[15:53]	Hal Klaxon: 	How does that work on opensim? Do you use any currency?
[15:53]	Jacek Antonelli: 	We can talk about things we can't improve ourselves. Build up some recommendations for LL to ignore.
[15:53]	Geneko Nemeth: 	No, I'm talking about blogs, forums, searches, online friend lists, that kind of stuffs...
[15:54]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Build up some recommendations for OpemSim grids to take.
[15:55]	Jacek Antonelli: 	We could even talk about the usability issues with SLX and other marketplaces, and how those could be improved to make the overall experience better
[15:55]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Although they will probably cite that inexistant license incompability and ignore us too.
[15:55]	Hal Klaxon: 	SLX needs a better wayt ot make a single payment.
[15:55]	Hal Klaxon: 	/way to/
[15:55]	Hal Klaxon: 	without teleporting soemwhere.
[15:55]	Geneko Nemeth: 	You could just Pay Exchange Street...
[15:55]	Hal Klaxon: 	can't I pay a fake avatar directly?
[15:55]	Hal Klaxon: 	Who?
[15:56]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Exchange Street.
[15:56]	Hal Klaxon: 	Oh....
[15:56]	Hal Klaxon: 	And I can pay him directly?
[15:56]	Geneko Nemeth: 	UUID dcdf9a20-6175-45aa-ba0d-118ba0a975ba.
[15:56]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Yes, you can pay him directly.
[15:57]	Hal Klaxon: 	I never knew.
[15:57]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Although maybe it could get more direct than this?
[15:57]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Seriously. LL brought SLX and they still behave as if they are indie.
[15:57]	Hal Klaxon: 	Are they afraid to integrate the accounts for security reasons?
[15:57]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Not that we are going to help them of course.
[15:58]	Hal Klaxon: 	It's nto a first-hour usability issue.
[15:58]	Hal Klaxon: 	/not/
[15:58]	Geneko Nemeth liked OnRez shop better. 	Geneko Nemeth liked OnRez shop better.
[15:58]	Garn Conover: 	i wonder if SLX can deduct from your sl account directly
[15:59]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Not yet.
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Mmkay, I'm gonna add SLX/marketplace usability as a future topic
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli: 	What else?
[15:59]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Uh, please don't.
[15:59]	Geneko Nemeth: 	We don't want to help SLX.
[15:59]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Okay, I don't.
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Think of it as "what other marketplaces should avoid doing" then
[15:59]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I'd rather see some third-party marketplace go up.
[15:59]	Hal Klaxon: 	It's reallt LL's business.
[15:59]	Geneko Nemeth: 	So it's like talking about CVS?
[16:00]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Oh man, anachroistic chat.
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Other topic ideas?
[16:00]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Pizza?
[16:01]	Hal Klaxon: 	is the devil.
[16:01]	Jacek Antonelli: 	You already said pizza
[16:02]	Hal Klaxon: 	I've gort a question.
[16:02]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Go ahead
[16:02]	Hal Klaxon: 	A bit off topic, but, what kind of hardware are you guys using to get the best user experience?
[16:04]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I'm running a Linux box with an AMD quad-core Phenom, 4GB memory, and dual Geforce 8600 graphics cards.
[16:04]	Hal Klaxon: 	For instance, my CPU is at 100% right now and nobody is moving at all.
[16:05]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah, SL pretty much sucks up as much of your resources as it can
[16:05]	Hal Klaxon: 	That seems wrong.
[16:05]	Jacek Antonelli: 	No matter how good your hardware is
[16:05]	Hal Klaxon: 	wasteful.
[16:06]	Geneko Nemeth is watching http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UspmcTUmPZ4#t=1m09 (Skipping the more irrevelant part) 	Geneko Nemeth is watching http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UspmcTUmPZ4#t=1m09 (Skipping the more irrevelant part)
[16:06]	Hal Klaxon: 	or very frugal.
[16:06]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah, it is
[16:07]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Mmmkay, I think that's all for this week. One last time -- any other topics?
[16:08]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Pizza!
[16:08]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Sleep :-)
[16:08]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Thanks for meeting Jacek
[16:09]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Take care, all! Thanks for coming
[16:09]	Jacek Antonelli: 	See you next week