User Experience Interest Group/Transcripts/2010-03-25

== Links ==
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== Topic ==
User Experience Interest Group Discussion for March 25, 2010.
Topic: Direct Manipulation Build Tools.
== Summary ==
Geneko led another discussion about his project to design an interface to manipulate prim shape parameters in a more direct and interactive way.
== Transcript ==
[15:11]	Geneko Nemeth: 	For today I want to talk about my project which is only due in 4 days and resiously needs user input... 	
[15:11]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Unfortunately, the design still isn't done, yet! >///< 	
[15:11]	Aklo Modan: 	That was 'sposed to be funny, right? 	
[15:12]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay Geneko, all yours 	
[15:12]	Aklo Modan: 	('cause i'm really laughing!) 	
[15:12]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Well, glad you find it funny. 	
[15:12]	Aklo Modan: 	You weren't joking? 	
[15:12]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I wan't joking, although I am not surprised you find it funny. 	
[15:12]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hi peeps :-) 	
[15:12]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hi Morg and luf 	
[15:13]	Armin Weatherwax: 	Hi :) 	
[15:13]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Howdy Mm 	
[15:13]	lufpleh Obstreperous: 	Hi Jacek, all 	
[15:13]	Mm Alder: 	Hi 	
[15:13]	Jacek Antonelli: 	For those just joining us, Geneko's going to be talking about his project which is due soon and needs user input 	
[15:13]	Morgaine Dinova: 	How goes Jacek? 	
[15:13]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Cool 	
[15:13]	Geneko Nemeth: 	But is only half-done, so maybe something else instead. 	
[15:14]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Well you've got our attention for an hour, so shoot. :) 	
[15:14]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Half done sounds good. If it were fully done, no point talking about it :P 	
[15:15]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Did I say half done? I mean I'm only at the 1/2th iteration... 	
[15:15]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Heh, nice 	
[15:16]	Geneko Nemeth: 	If I had two more hours I could probably get the parts for torus-type prims and new tools like alignment, distribution, preset camera angles and tool palette done. 	
[15:16]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I mean nice diagram. No idea what it means :P 	
[15:17]	Geneko Nemeth: 	But if I were that effecient, I would have been coding by now. 	
[15:17]	Morgaine Dinova: 	We need an overview first. What's the project? 	
[15:17]	Mm Alder: 	Looks like a time machine to me. :-) 	
[15:17]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Redisigning the build interface of primitive-based virtual world. 	
[15:17]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Nah, it's a portal to a wormhole 	
[15:18]	Geneko Nemeth: 	(That is, SL, but don't tell anyone about it. ^^) 	
[15:18]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Aha! 	
[15:18]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	given the alleged mesh capabilities is it worth it to remake the building interface until you see what meshes need? 	
[15:19]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I think it won't happen for a while. 	
[15:19]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Well don't use any LL sources, otherwise you'll be personally liable to them and to all users of your code, since the TPV overrides the "NO WARRANTY" clause in the GPL. 	
[15:19]	Mm Alder: 	This is a school project? 	
[15:19]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Mm: I was stupid... 	
[15:20]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Morgaine: I'm the type to connect to SL recklessly despite the TPV. Don't try this at home, kids! 	
[15:20]	Mm Alder: 	stupid? 	
[15:21]	Mm Alder: 	how? 	
[15:21]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Yeah, other people work in groups and make tiny projects... I choose to work alone on something I can't do. 	
[15:21]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Geneko: oh, you're not the problem, you're unlikely to sue yourself. ^_^ It's other people who can claim against you when they use your code. 	
[15:21]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hehe Gen 	
[15:21]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Morgaine: Exactly. 	
[15:22]	Garn Conover: 	yay! 	
[15:22]	Dzonatas Sol: 	Well, i like how your bolded the prim outlines, as that helps much to understand what a knob does 	
[15:22]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hi Garn! 	
[15:22]	Garn Conover: 	see how long Imp lets me stay on today 	
[15:22]	Techwolf Lupindo tosses Garn some snacks. 	Techwolf Lupindo tosses Garn some snacks. 	
[15:23]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Well... maybe I should explain a little bit on parts I am not yet covered on the mockup. 	
[15:23]	Garn Conover: 	thats wikid Technus 	
[15:23]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I stay on forever in Imprudence. It is Linux though. 	
[15:23]	Garn Conover: 	yeah i got a crash bug on Win 	
[15:23]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Garn, what imprudence build? 	
[15:23]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Let's stay focused on Gen's project, please 	
[15:23]	Garn Conover: 	whats the topic :) 	
[15:23]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Gen: yes please 	
[15:23]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I'm thinking of replacing the upper part... 	
[15:24]	Geneko Nemeth: 	OH SHI- accitental teleport with Imprudence 	
[15:24]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Geneko has an idea for changing the build interface in the viewer. It's for his school project 	
[15:24]	Charlette Proto: 	upper part? have you considered the 'standatd' (MS etc) toolbar we have talked about many times Gen? 	
[15:25]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I did. 	
[15:25]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I'm not sure which one is better. 	
[15:25]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Which is one of the reasons I came here to ask. 	
[15:25]	Garn Conover thinks Technus is stuck talkin	Garn Conover thinks Technus is stuck talkin 	
[15:26]	Charlette Proto: 	I still believe that Second Life™ is more like an office app than a URL viewer - especially if actual URLs are not related to the location bar 	
[15:26]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Need some more explanation of the key difference, Gen 	
[15:26]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	fjkds;al 	
[15:26]	Mm Alder: 	What problem are you trying to address or how would you determine that what you propose is an actual improvement? 	
[15:26]	Charlette Proto: 	further this applies to tools like build etc and their user customisation 	
[15:27]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I'm trying to address the problem that prim param edit is currently filling out text boxes and that build tools are somewhat lacking. 	
[15:27]	Charlette Proto: 	improvement would be evident if the user familiarity/expectation/interpretation of UI functions would heve improved 	
[15:28]	Mm Alder: 	Are you focusing on power users, novices, or both? 	
[15:28]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Both. 	
[15:28]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Gen: so you're saying make building less numeric and more interactive via mouse etc? 	
[15:28]	Charlette Proto: 	customisation of UI is the key to noob/advanced dilemma 	
[15:29]	Aklo Modan: 	+1 	
[15:29]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Yes, yes, yes. But, 	
[15:30]	Mm Alder: 	Customization usually favors power users. Newbies just have no clue. 	
[15:30]	Charlette Proto: 	I agree, but good parameter control needs to be made available e.g. granuality of controls etc 	
[15:30]	Geneko Nemeth: 	even if your interface is completely customizable, if your interaction methodology is wrong, there can be no right way to customize it. 	
[15:30]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Agree with Gen. So what method of interaction are you proposing Gen? 	
[15:31]	Geneko Nemeth: 	"Direct manipulation" 	
[15:31]	Geneko Nemeth: 	... of course, it's more of manipulating gizmos. 	
[15:31]	Mm Alder: 	Avatar hands? 	
[15:31]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Like in the "World Builder" film :-) 	
[15:31]	Charlette Proto: 	current prim controls are simply criptic and hardly anyone knows what a given change to prim params will result in 	
[15:32]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Exactly. 	
[15:32]	Charlette Proto: 	personally I would expose the user to hands-on twists etc of the prim 	
[15:32]	Geneko Nemeth: 	While there are a bit of hands on stuff going on, it's only for the basic mov/rot/sca controls. 	
[15:32]	Morgaine Dinova: 	World Builder video link, for later if you haven't seen before -- http://vimeo.com/3365942 (Don't watch it now) 	
[15:33]	Mm Alder: 	Do you mean "hands" on or "mouse" on? 	
[15:33]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I've seen that. 	
[15:33]	Geneko Nemeth: 	"Pen" on, of course! 	
[15:33]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Okay... that's kinda unrelastic to expect. 	
[15:33]	Mm Alder: 	In a virtual world with avatars, it's not so obvious. :-) 	
[15:33]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Tentacles on :D 	
[15:33]	Charlette Proto: 	yup. but one can start with some graphic illustration of resulting changes and selected parameters being open to hands-on fiddling 	
[15:34]	Charlette Proto: 	well mouse etc on manipulation ofcourse 	
[15:34]	Geneko Nemeth: 	But I also expect expert users to use keyboards to switch between tools and type in parameters faster than clicking spinboxes. 	
[15:34]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Gen: what kind of interaction and extra controls are you proposing? (Point at parts of the diagram?) 	
[15:34]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	you need puppeteering-control-level access tot he viewer I think 	
[15:34]	Charlette Proto: 	switch or hover the tool and you see arrows etc indocating the likely change 	
[15:35]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Basically, you start with choosing a tool, like the twist tool or the hole size tool. 	
[15:35]	Charlette Proto: 	also 'edit appearance' style display of the range of chnages available would be nice 	
[15:35]	Mm Alder: 	God idea Charlette. 	
[15:35]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Then the viewer would highlight edges avaliable to manipulate in your current selection. 	
[15:35]	Mm Alder: 	*Good* 	
[15:36]	Charlette Proto: 	yeah gen - switch to a parametar and see what change is feasible in a small previer 	
[15:36]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Gen: Does that provide enough context? The same edges could apply to many types of operation 	
[15:36]	Charlette Proto: 	currently the parameter fiddling is a blind act for most - let alone noowbies 	
[15:37]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Morgaine: By the type of tools, only the edges that are applicable to that kind of parameter being edited will highlight. 	
[15:37]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Aha 	
[15:37]	Dzonatas Sol: 	i like the highlight 	
[15:38]	Geneko Nemeth: 	(Context-sensitive manipulating *might* be covered by ... no, that patent explicitly said "include rot/sca" in its claims. 	
[15:38]	Charlette Proto: 	what do you think of deformations being handled the way edit appearance is Gen? 	
[15:38]	Morgaine Dinova: 	So operation state is given by tool selection state ... like in the GIMP toolbox window for example. 	
[15:38]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Yeah. 	
[15:38]	Geneko Nemeth: 	And so, there is no need to preview since the type of operation is already shown in the tool icon. 	
[15:38]	Charlette Proto: 	GIMP UI is hard to talk about as a success 	
[15:39]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I know, I know, which is why I am also thinking of a conventional toolbar. 	
[15:39]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Charlette: yeah, haha, was only referring to the toolbox state, nothing else :-) 	
[15:39]	Charlette Proto: 	some of the GIMP clumsiness still pisses me after years of using it 	
[15:39]	Mm Alder: 	For newbies, you might have text prompts, e.g. "select the axis for rotation" after the user selects a tool. Sort of a context dependednt step-by-step. 	
[15:39]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Good point. 	
[15:39]	Charlette Proto: 	I realise and in that respect the solution is good Morgaine 	
[15:39]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Geneko: Have you thought about making the tool selection part of the in-world display? 	
[15:40]	Geneko Nemeth: 	In-world display? 	
[15:40]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Well lemme say that I find the "Which toolbox icon have I clicked?" paradigm of GIMP very confusing --- I have to keep looking back at the toolbox window. 	
[15:40]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Back when I used Maya, they had a little icon that would float near the selection, and clicking on it would cycle through a number of modifiers/tools 	
[15:40]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Morgaine: You probably didn't turn on the option that adds a small icon to the mouse pointer 	
[15:40]	Charlette Proto: 	the text based approach sounds a bit 'not inworld', but it could be a mode to choose as opposed to graphic etc 	
[15:41]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Jacek: I think that's kinda awkward... and besides, pie menus are better for that kind of task. 	
[15:41]	Geneko Nemeth loves pie menus! 	Geneko Nemeth loves pie menus! 	
[15:41]	Mm Alder: 	No more pie in 2.0 :-( 	
[15:41]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Are pie menus part of the design, then? 	
[15:41]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Gen: the pointer helps a lot, although it can be hard to tell the difference between a paintbrush icon and a scalpel for Cut. 	
[15:41]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Not yet. 	
[15:41]	Charlette Proto: 	Maya is great in the way thousands of controls are always available - but there we come to the pie menu thing again 	
[15:42]	Charlette Proto: 	cursor cues are a good point 	
[15:42]	Jacek Antonelli: 	... are pie menus *going* to be part of the design? 	
[15:42]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Jacek: Maybe in the far, far future... but not for the project I'm going to hand in four days later. 	
[15:42]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay 	
[15:43]	Charlette Proto: 	Maya without the rich pie menu just wouldn't be a practical UI I think 	
[15:43]	Geneko Nemeth: 	(FFF being the day I implement the pie enhancements mentioned two meetings earlier) 	
[15:43]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I like a fixed field in the frame to tell me my current operation. Just like a fixed field in the frame to tell me my current target too. 	
[15:43]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Then my eye always heads to the same spot. 	
[15:44]	Charlette Proto: 	pie with 8 slices is ancient history and a very poor tool, but good pie menus are simply the best in many tasks 	
[15:44]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Ancient history, yes. Poor tool, I disagree. 	
[15:44]	Geneko Nemeth: 	But enough of pies. How do you think of particular manipulation tools shown here? 	
[15:45]	Aklo Modan: 	ш дшлу еруь! 	
[15:45]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Describe them, in turn Gen 	
[15:45]	Charlette Proto: 	pie with dynamic division is far more accommodating than argueing about what should be at level one and what further hierarchy could be 	
[15:46]	Mm Alder: 	Got to go. See you all soon. 	
[15:46]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Take care Mm 	
[15:46]	Charlette Proto: 	byee Mm 	
[15:46]	Armin Weatherwax: 	Bye 	
[15:46]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Cyu Mm 	
[15:46]	Geneko Nemeth: 	As you can see here, up to now I've got most operations applicatble to cube-type prims, sans alignment or texturing. 	
[15:46]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Gen: every control is an edge drag? 	
[15:46]	Aklo Modan: 	шэь ыскфьидувб пщееф пщб ещщю Ж( 	
[15:46]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Morgaine: That's the way I'm thinking... 	
[15:47]	Charlette Proto: 	this is why I believe that illustartions (ala appearance) of given deformations is the best build tool approach 	
[15:47]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I think this is somewhat better than visible gizmos. 	
[15:47]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Don't worry, there will be icons. 	
[15:47]	Morgaine Dinova: 	What happens when you release? Temporary mod, or permanent? How do the undo's work? 	
[15:47]	Geneko Nemeth: 	When you release, the update gets sent to the server, but not before. 	
[15:48]	Geneko Nemeth: 	And you can press Escape before you release the mouse to cancel it. 	
[15:48]	Charlette Proto: 	I don'r even doubt that the 'edit appearance' mode for prim deformations will be the future of the edit tool 	
[15:48]	Geneko Nemeth: 	This is something you can't do iin the current build tools. 	
[15:48]	Charlette Proto: 	just a matter of time 	
[15:48]	Charlette Proto: 	lag 	
[15:48]	Charlette Proto: 	haha 	
[15:49]	Charlette Proto: 	haven't seen chat lag for a while 	
[15:49]	Charlette Proto: 	eep am I out or what? 	
[15:49]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Nope. 	
[15:49]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Gen, would it be possible to modify that mode of operation a little (because it's very bad for accessibility to maintain drag), so that the drag can be made in separate steps, and only send to server when satisfied? 	
[15:49]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Geneko: Are you going to try to design all the tools, or just a few? 	
[15:50]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Morgaine: I... don't know how to do that, and it seems to be too complex. 	
[15:50]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Jacek: All, plus two new ones. 	
[15:50]	Geneko Nemeth: 	But I don't think I'll be able to actually implement all them. 	
[15:50]	Jacek Antonelli: 	In four days? 	
[15:50]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Gen is going to sleep negative hours :P 	
[15:50]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Designing? Maybe. Implementing? No. 	
[15:51]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Maybe you should spend the four days inventing a time machine so you can go back and have enough time to do it all 	
[15:51]	Charlette Proto: 	big ask Gen unless a single change of user mode e.g. 'edit appearance' idea were to be applicable to the majority of tasks 	
[15:51]	Charlette Proto: 	making a time machine is a relatively simple task hehe 	
[15:51]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Well, i expect most of the coding will be copy paste. 	
[15:52]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Where did the "4 days" come from? I missed that somehow. 	
[15:52]	Charlette Proto: 	just need to overcome gravity I think 	
[15:52]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Due Sunday. 	
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli: 	That's Geneko's deadline for the project 	
[15:52]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Ouch 	
[15:52]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Don't worry, I just need a working prototype. 	
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I would suggest picking two or three tools and focusing on those 	
[15:52]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Definitely. 	
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Unless you like torturing yourself and then failing 	
[15:52]	Charlette Proto: 	wow 4 days is good enaugh to get drunk and go out dancing - not to build a design 	
[15:53]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Jacek: I'm already doing that, if you haven't noticed... I had the project in mind back two months ago, remember? 	
[15:53]	Charlette Proto: 	this is a clasic case of having to 'test' the assumptions I think 	
[15:53]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah, I know. And you've said several times since then that you realize it's too big a project. So scale it down to something doable ;) 	
[15:54]	Geneko Nemeth: 	No wai. XD 	
[15:54]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Well, my quick feedback, Gen: I like the idea. I'd very much like to see it working. I can't think of any issues other than accessibility of dragging. 	
[15:54]	Geneko Nemeth: 	"Accessibility of dragging " being...? 	
[15:55]	Morgaine Dinova: 	The holding down mouse button while dragging to final point 	
[15:55]	Charlette Proto: 	some of the drags are spatially hard to interpret - I agree with Morgaine 	
[15:55]	Charlette Proto: 	the whole problem of raytracing the control in a 3D sense 	
[15:56]	Charlette Proto: 	also this idea unlike the 'edit appearance' thought is camera position dependant - bad thing 	
[15:56]	Charlette Proto: 	beat that for efficiency hindrance 	
[15:56]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Requires good coordination to drag to required spot first time, that's the accessibility issue. Although a good Undo system helps massively. 	
[15:57]	Charlette Proto: 	sorry if my words cut like a knife, but I haven't done UI design for so many years to beat around the bush 	
[15:57]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I think it's expected that drag-based tools will require the ability to drag and control the mouse proficiently. 	
[15:57]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Note also that your highlighting of edges inevitably obscures the edges, so it's hard to get exactly right. 	
[15:57]	Charlette Proto: 	yes Jacek and consider the lack of plan/elevation views too 	
[15:58]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Ie. a thickened and highlighted edge is not the actual edge 	
[15:58]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Charlette: Don't worry, that will be added to the menu. 	
[15:58]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Hmm, I'm not sure how "edit appearance" is not camera dependent - even if it shows all angles at once, to see the current state,you still have to cam. 	
[15:58]	Charlette Proto: 	isometric view is actually more precise for distortion editing than pespective 	
[15:58]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek: yeah, which is why my first question was whether the drag can be done in multiple attempts 	
[15:58]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Morgaine: Acknowledged, that's a good concern. It's not expected to deviate too much, but there will still be a small disparancy. 	
[15:58]	Charlette Proto: 	edit appearance is only preview dependant Gen 	
[15:59]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Charlette: Not. 	
[15:59]	Charlette Proto: 	manipulation is 100% camera/view independant 	
[15:59]	Geneko Nemeth: 	There is no display of current state in the edit appearance panel (as it is). 	
[15:59]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Only extreme states. 	
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli: 	The idea of Geneko's proposal is to design a way to directly interact with the prims. 	
[16:00]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Although using an extra preview might migrate that. 	
[16:00]	Charlette Proto: 	but the middle panel could be introduced Gen - I assumed this is obvious 	
[16:00]	Geneko Nemeth: 	But, why bother with the screen estate of three previews if you could do it directly on the object? 	
[16:00]	Geneko Nemeth: 	It's obvious, but not blindingly obvious... 	
[16:00]	Charlette Proto: 	why bother at all Gen 	
[16:01]	Morgaine Dinova: 	As it's 4pm, just in case Jacek has to dash off suddenly ... could I ask whether there is going to be a meeting of Imprudence people before the 1st April when the TPV policy comes into effect, to get feedback on direction etc? 	
[16:02]	Charlette Proto: 	personally I feel that we are trying to cure a dead horse, considering what LL did in the last couple of years 	
[16:02]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Not we, me. ^^ 	
[16:02]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Unless you're mentioning the TPV... 	
[16:02]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Morgaine: We met this past week and made a decision. I'll be announcing it soon (probably today). 	
[16:03]	Charlette Proto: 	feel me in Gen - I hadly know what is going on in Second Life™ these days 	
[16:03]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Geneko: I think the idea of directly manipulating the objects to change their parameters would be great 	
[16:04]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek, you mean the 3 developers made a decision, right? 	
[16:04]	Jacek Antonelli: 	And that you don't need to worry at all about whether it's camera-perspective independent or not. In fact, it shouldn't be. 	
[16:05]	Geneko Nemeth: 	About TPV... 	
[16:05]	Jacek Antonelli: 	And that you also don't need to worry very much about allowing multiple edits before sending it to the server. If the user makes a mistake, they can correct it or undo and try again. Prims don't petrify after being modified once, after all. 	
[16:05]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Jacek: exactly. 	
[16:06]	Charlette Proto: 	don't want to interfere Gen sorry 	
[16:06]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I think Gen is making some very interesting suggestions for manipulating prims. Even if not used in LL-based viewers because of the TPV, it sounds like a very useful direction. 	
[16:07]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I don't really care about TPV, personally, but... 	
[16:07]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Is that a developer dreaming about the TPV being hanged to death? 	
[16:07]	Charlette Proto: 	are third party going to be locked out? sorry I haven't been paying much attention of late 	
[16:07]	Geneko Nemeth: 	No, that's LL saying that TPV will only be used to fend off bad people but a developer dreaming about the TPV being tied on a broken rope that could fall any time. 	
[16:08]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Ah 	
[16:08]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I don't think you can get hanged as a result of a legal suit. :P But you can certainly lose everything you possess, when the "NO WARRANTY" clauses of the GPL are overturned on 1st April. 	
[16:08]	Armin Weatherwax: 	Charlette: the tvp is designed in a way they will not even needed to be blocked, they will all go by themselves if they aren't nuts 	
[16:09]	Geneko Nemeth: 	GPL doesn't force no warranty, it just says this is the default. Nevertheless, only nuts would claim liability without getting paid... 	
[16:09]	Charlette Proto: 	good point Armin 	
[16:09]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Anything more you want to say or ask about your design, Geneko? 	
[16:09]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Yeah... a few things. 	
[16:10]	Geneko Nemeth: 	First, it's nice if the prim is a 0.5 by 0.5 by 0.5 . 	
[16:10]	Geneko Nemeth: 	But sometimes you get extreme geometry. 	
[16:11]	Morgaine Dinova: 	GPL provides the "NO WARRANTY" clause as an inherent part of the license. Obviously developers can choose to accept liability if they wish though. The TPV however makes it non-optional. If you use LL's sources, and a user connects your to SL, then *YOU* personally are liable for anything your users (or LL) sue you for.	
[16:11]	Charlette Proto: 	this is a camera/view dependant problem again - simply the avatar scale gets in the way Gen 	
[16:12]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Of course, no method is perfect... 	
[16:12]	Morgaine Dinova: 	So if you decide to use LL sources released by LL *after* 1st April, I hope you take out millions of $ of liability insurance. 	
[16:12]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Enough about the TPV already. 	
[16:12]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Maybe we'll stop talking about prims and start tarlking about TPV... 	
[16:13]	Charlette Proto: 	eyah Morgaine e.g . Second Life™ makes me sick and I'll sue if it gets any worse 	
[16:13]	Geneko Nemeth: 	It has been an hour, after all. 	
[16:13]	Morgaine Dinova: 	It needs to be said, Jacek. Nobody here wants anyone present to lose their livelihood. 	
[16:14]	Dzonatas Sol: 	Imprudence is based on Snowglobe, so it would be hard to consider Improdence a third-party viewer. 	
[16:14]	Morgaine Dinova: 	People who hate open source will be suing opensource developers left right and center, count on it. I can think of several high profile people. 	
[16:15]	Geneko Nemeth: 	All third-party viewers are based on first-party viewers. 	
[16:15]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Morg: It's off-topic to this meeting 	
[16:15]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Jacek: I declare talking about my project is over. Let's talk about TPV! 	
[16:15]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek: that's why I asked whether there was going to be a meeting about it. 	
[16:15]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, Geneko 	
[16:15]	Charlette Proto: 	but how can one sue an open source dev team? who would you sue Morgaine 	
[16:15]	Armin Weatherwax: 	so lets save TVP for the after hour 	
[16:16]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I already gave my feedback to Geneko: "I like it!" 	
[16:16]	Morgaine Dinova: 	:-) 	
[16:16]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Any final remarks before I close the transcript? 	
[16:16]	Charlette Proto: 	generally one needs an entity to bring a case against Morgaine 	
[16:16]	Charlette Proto: 	yeah Second Life™ smells funny Jacek 	
[16:16]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Very insightful