Open Source Meeting/2010-03-25

==== Agenda Thursday, 25 March 2010 ====
# Weekly Snowglobe update - Merov Linden
# Snowglobe 1.4
# Snowglobe 2.0: Things that happened this week and plan for next:
#* Worked on the script and did an auto commit yesterday on the vendor branch. Bugs in the asset_urls.txt production though. Working on a fix.
#* Thread from Q on branching strategy
#* Next steps: 
#** fix the vendor branch update
#** merge to Snowglobe2 trunk
#** start seriously on merging back all Snowglobe1.x patches not there already
#* Communication:
#** One extra weekly hour like that one?
#** SL Forums to expand on some threads? (instead of cramming the mailing list)
#* SNOW 2.0 Source Code issues on pJIRA
# : create a BINDIST CMake variable for producing (hopefully) legally distributable binaries
#* Pending update from Legal, through Merov
== Transcript ==
[14:05]	:	anyhow, let's start
[14:05]	:	Yes, I enjoy the new weather over the hills
[14:05]	:	Not much in Canada, where cold weather will strike in a few hours...
[14:05]	:	Snowglobe 1.4: I haven't seen notable commits this weel
[14:05]	:	LL sticking to that timezone instead of using GMT is creating trouble every couple of month.
[14:05]	:	haven't made any myself for sure
[14:06]	:	i've been under piles of other problems this week
[14:06]	:	I triaged a couple of things though this morning that could be applied to 1.4 trunk
[14:06]	:	While the rest of the world figure out time can't be change, they are still getting used to the fact the USA is still in the dark ages and chang there clock due to many myths.
[14:06]	:	i'm using the socks5 code in anger and getting angry at the same time so there may be some new comits there
[14:06]	:	Snowglobe 1.4 32 bit work out of the box with a few extras libs added
[14:06]	:	works*
[14:07]	:	I saw Thickbrick's patch on planar texture alignment this morning
[14:07]	:	really nice!
[14:07]	 	checks on the freetype bug on jira...
[14:07]	 	smiles
[14:08]	:	i've also been pretty much out of action the last week with a double PC fail and the flu
[14:08]	:	SNOW-586
[14:08]	:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-586 
[#SNOW-586] Add option to align textures across (planar-mapped, co-planar) faces
[14:08]	:	that's Thikbrick's patch ^^^
[14:08]	:	and jira is not responding to me....
[14:08]	:	there are other patches that I haven't had time to review yet
[14:09]	:	but, reminder, if you are a committer, you *can* review patches
[14:09]	:	that patch above comes with a video illustration: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMyvGrOsYM4
[14:09]	:	I shouldn't be the bottle neck here, I won't scale (I'm actually trying to loose weight..)
[14:10]	:	the video makes the feature really compelling
[14:10]	:	It looks awesome.
[14:10]	:	I'm finishing reviewing Aleric's patch for VWR-12984 (BIG patch...)
[14:10]	:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-12984 
[#VWR-12984] 1.23: Water flickers and disappears in patches
[14:10]	:	so, yeah, I know we'll have to port to 2.0 and there are some UI tweaks to do but that's such a sweet addition
[14:11]	:	porting to c++ part to 2.0 is quick - just some style changes. The XUI part I haven't looked at.
[14:12]	:	that 12984 is big indeed
[14:13]	:	Hopefully the old UI stays awhile in Snowglobe until this issue is resolved: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-17324
[14:13]	:	[#VWR-17324] Processor Usage Through the Roof on 2.0 Beta
[14:13]	 	checks that one
[14:14]	:	Note my comment: When I run 32 bit Viewer V2.0 on my machine it has about 75% utilization.
When I run 32 bit Snowglobe 1.4 on my machine it has about 25% utilization.
[14:14]	:	Dzonatas: that CPU time is in the main process, or the SLPlugin processes?
[14:15]	:	That's like 2 CPUs pegs at 100%
[14:15]	:	hmm...
[14:15]	:	pegged*... I haven't isolated the problem yet. I can only run it at low graphics
[14:15]	:	has SNOW-559 been triaged at all? That is someone only a Linden can fix.
[14:15]	:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-559 
[#SNOW-559] !standalone build error due to missing libfreetype.so. libpangoft2-1.0.so: undefined reference to `FT_Realloc'
[14:16]	:	Tofu's comment on 17324 is making me worried
[14:17]	:	well, I know that Bao and others have been working on this
[14:17]	:	good that Tofu's has an eye on it too...
[14:17]	:	559: I need to work on that Techwolf
[14:18]	 	Coffee : Hot strong coffee!!
[14:19]	:	I think there shouldn't be a difference in how much cpu time is spent in texture decoding between SG1.3 and SL2.0.
[14:19]	:	That bug can affect the LL bianary builds as they pick up the sytem freetype.so instead of the LL supplied one.
[14:19]	:	Thanks Robin, now I need coffee too. :-0
[14:19]	:	(modulo some bugs)
[14:19]	:	Techwolf: there has been lots of build issues moving to 2.0 and I'm slowly (sorry) moving through them
[14:20]	:	/m enods
[14:20]	:	Just making sure its wansn't lost/ignored.
[14:20]	:	so, I don't have an answer right this minute but I've been through the *whole* export, build and package muddle so I think I can find my way out of almost anything now...
[14:21]	:	not that I always wanted that knowledge but... here it is...
[14:21]	:	I assigned the bug to me Techwolf so it doesn't fall through the cracks
[14:21]	:	thanks for bringing it up
[14:21]	:	Thank you.
[14:22]	:	ha found the bug in the socks code
[14:22]	:	OK, next of the agenda: 2.0 and branch strategy
[14:22]	:	so, on 2.0 you may have seens a big commit yesterday on the vendor branch
[14:23]	:	That bug not only affect builders, but could also affect LL suppied binary if the sytem freetype on the LL build system is different from the LL supplied one. Next topic. :-)
[14:23]	:	it's an auto update containing the whole beta4
[14:23]	:	the problem is that the asset_urls.txt is all wrong :(
[14:24]	:	I need to get the upload to S3 fixed but that requires a fix on the *live* buildscript repo internally, which is the "master" repo for the whole building machinery
[14:24]	:	it's fragile and a bug in there can break the production of 2.0 so, extra extra caution when changing that
[14:25]	:	actually, I did a change this week which was suspected as a culprit in a breakage in the 2.0 build (it was not eventually) and I really felt the heat
[14:25]	:	anyway, I'm extra prudent but I have a fix and did some succesful tests already
[14:26]	:	I just need to get the seal of approval from everyone before pushing that change
[14:26]	:	once done, the auto export should work
[14:26]	:	;-)
[14:27]	:	that's hinges nicely with Q's branch strategy email
[14:27]	:	Do you need to to try a new 32 bit compile and recheck utilization on beta4?
[14:27]	:	it got some interesting feedback and questions on the list
[14:27]	:	need me*
[14:27]	:	i think it's got some limitations that strategy
[14:28]	:	it looks like the bottleneck with that strategy will be svn
[14:28]	:	i think Nyx's plan to develop the new clothing features on a branch that will be auto merged to snowglobe might cause some issues
[14:28]	:	Dzonatas: I'll be happy to have you make such test once we get a clean vendor branch
[14:28]	:	I guess develop.py doesn't like me, again.
[14:28]	:	note that now it's *not* clean (see above about the asset_urls)
[14:28]	:	kk
[14:29]	:	Cannot find a Visual Studio installation!
[14:29]	:	Latif: I need to talk to Nyx about it
[14:30]	:	The thing is that we want development made in the open, in Snowglobe as much as possible
[14:30]	:	Ardy i've been looking at some issues like that
[14:30]	:	I can wait.
[14:30]	:	and I'm happy to see Nyx jumping right into the concept
[14:30]	:	I beat on the XML files enough that V2's UI no longer makes me pass out.
[14:31]	:	so, let's see how we can make that work for all of us
[14:31]	:	the key word there is auto-merged, it just needs to be treated like it would inside LL, the merge needs to be hand applied to bring the branches back together
[14:31]	:	hi hi, sorry i just look the new beta 2.0 ㋡
[14:32]	:	I think you're right Robin
[14:32]	:	even for the vendor branch, we shouldn't have "auto" merge
[14:32]	:	but regular and frequent is something we should shoot for
[14:32]	:	the only automerging should be for read only branches
[14:33]	:	yeah: the vendor branch
[14:33]	:	we *could* create another "vendor + clothing" branch
[14:33]	 	mubles something about git/hg and dVCS
[14:33]	:	isn't the vendor branch (oss-viewer) read-only?
[14:33]	:	and merge that in Snowglobe 2.0 "manually"
[14:34]	:	Thickbrick, none of the svn is read only, but we have to pretend it is
[14:34]	:	That sound good. The svn repo does not have enoght brances now. ;-)
[14:34]	:	yes
[14:34]	:	hg: well, that's a case of why I mentioned last week moving to hg without waiting for the internal code split to be completed
[14:34]	:	the merge in hg is so much better!
[14:35]	:	if we move early will we have a rebase problem when internal catches up? or will you be merging by patch?
[14:36]	:	I don't think I'll have a problem: it turns out that we will always need some "export" stage because of non GPL code intricated in our repo
[14:36]	:	+1 move to hg if it help lessen your work merov =)
[14:36]	:	so, that means that we'll have an hg->hg export instead of hg->svn
[14:36]	:	so there will never be a common ansestor? the external hg will start from scratch and merge patch by patch
[14:37]	:	but it's not that different (now that I own that code, I can confidently say so)
[14:37]	 	likes version keys for foreign merges
[14:37]	:	We'll recreate the commit history, yes
[14:37]	:	we copy the commit comments over though so the history is not lost
[14:38]	:	and if we do that automatically (on each commit), then there's not much lost
[14:38]	:	ok, so you filter in post-commit hook grab the diff and throw it over the wall, then patch apply
[14:38]	:	makes sense
[14:39]	:	yeah, it should be workable
[14:39]	:	it's still possible to export any internal branch also, just one flag to switch on the BuildParams of any branch
[14:39]	:	so we have a lot of flexibility
[14:40]	:	nice to hear
[14:40]	:	so exactly how safe is that switch? ;-p
[14:40]	:	lol
[14:40]	:	ideally though, I'll try to stay as close as possible to the canonic "Q strategy"
[14:41]	:	i.e. export the internal viewer branch on each commit, all LL know that things go exported publicly *by default*
[14:41]	:	that's the best though, of course, I'm a little worry about instabilities...
[14:42]	:	but it's better than the alternative (do everything behind closed door till it's QAed...)
[14:42]	:	Seems like that strategy leans towards a tic-tock approah... between snowglobe and internal development... not sure how to define the tick or tock, yet the flow seems to sway like a pendulum
[14:42]	:	much better indeed
[14:43]	:	we'll see how this all play out in the coming weeks, I have a meeting set up with Q to discuss just that
[14:43]	:	but right now, he's whole team is working frantically to meet the official Viewer 2.0 dead line
[14:43]	:	I"ve also been re-doing most of my ebuilds on the gentoo overlay. Makes it easer for me to maintiane and will allower user/devolopers to emerge xxx-svn a lot more without breakage.
[14:43]	:	they are a *tad* busy...
[14:45]	:	OK, so, summary on 2.0: Merov has a bug on the uplaod to S3 of bundles, he has a fix, when tested, we'll turn the auto update on
[14:45]	 	pffew...
[14:45]	 	grins
[14:45]	:	next on the agenda: the communication issue
[14:45]	:	I sort of jumped on a thread to talk about this
[14:45]	:	You humans tend to work and work and work...don't you ever take a break and romp though the woods? :-D
[14:46]	:	there were a lot of emails on that
[14:46]	:	I've the feeling there are a couple of things we could do better
[14:46]	:	so I proposed 2 things:
[14:46]	:	1. Have more meeting like that one IW
[14:47]	:	I personaly like those meetings as we have a set time to talk over stuff
[14:47]	:	and it would be nice to accomodate other people (like Aleric)
[14:47]	:	you don't have to come to both of course...
[14:48]	:	anyway, what do you think?
[14:48]	:	what sort of time do you propose? or not got that far yet?
[14:48]	:	I don
[14:48]	:	I don't have a proposed time yet
[14:48]	:	I personally can accomodate a wide range
[14:49]	:	for the day though, I'd prefer Tuesday as it'll alternate nicely with the current Thursday
[14:49]	:	so there's something to say every 2 days
[14:50]	:	how late is it in Europe right now? 10pm right?
[14:50]	:	might want some flexibility with time too, some times might only be 1/2 hour worth
[14:50]	:	9PM in UK
[14:50]	:	well comming up to 20
[14:50]	:	err 10
[14:50]	:	Aleric said "later" than 2pm which surprised me
[14:50]	:	usual hippo meeting when we all agree on summer time is 10PM GMT 11PM CET
[14:51]	:	fine with me but we might loose even more European folks
[14:51]	:	I think hes probably up to 3 in the morning coding or something ;-)
[14:51]	:	how about a wiki vote on this. Write down a few proposed hours and let people add their name under the time they preffer?
[14:51]	:	k
[14:51]	:	what day of week?
[14:51]	:	taking opinions here of peopel who are n't here is hard
[14:52]	:	I need to send an email on this to the list then
[14:52]	:	And allow more then one name entry as some folks can handle jsut about any day/time whiel others can't
[14:52]	:	group notice to snowglobe with the question
[14:53]	:	good idea Robin
[14:53]	:	2. Forums: for long threads, would offset the list
[14:53]	:	Use the poll option in groups also.
[14:53]	:	does that even work?
[14:54]	:	that being said, not much people use the Open Source sub category in the ofrum right now
[14:54]	:	and the questions are not really Open Source...
[14:54]	:	ML and group should hit the vsat majority
[14:54]	:	Boroondas has been doing most of the answers to questions there
[14:54]	:	its a place i hardly get to
[14:54]	:	well, would you if it was managed better?
[14:55]	:	The blogified forums are not really usefull now. Catgatory like that group you metchine merov are hidden. I've never seen it. So now I have to go looking for it....
[14:55]	:	or is there an overarching reason?
[14:55]	:	i find ML's the most effective tool, every project i am involved with centers around the ML
[14:55]	:	just subscribed to rss to get updates, otherwise the forums don't get checked often like mail-lists
[14:56]	:	My main problem with the flog it is the format. Just hard to find stuff in it.
[14:56]	:	most projects do have a variety of mailing list: general, coding, testing, <specific area>
[14:56]	:	i personally find the blog software used by ll to be.... lacking
[14:56]	:	i have email sat open on one monitor all day, droping mail into different boxes so i see incoming mail in minutes in most cases
[14:57]	:	we've only one and it's hard to sort through it
[14:58]	:	other FLOSS projects I've been involved with also used ML mostly but folks at LL reported great experience with Forums
[14:58]	:	well, sorry i need to go for now other meeting in beta grid, im back nect week, thanks ㋡
[14:58]	:	IronPython mail-list is much busier than opensource-dev, so mail-lists works for codeplex people
[14:58]	:	anyway, there's no point push something if it won't be used
[14:59]	:	most of the debian lists are very high volume too
[14:59]	:	i think the forum has a place though
[14:59]	:	we should also use the Snowglobe group more as mentioned by Robin
[14:59]	:	i think many new users, or new to open source may go to the forum first
[14:59]	:	Could somebody who was here from the beginning please make a notecard for us who couldn't make it?
[15:00]	:	k, so, consensus seems to be: yes to new meeting IW, no (or no enthusiasm) for forum
[15:00]	:	Good point, is anyone doing transcrips these days?
[15:00]	 	is not
[15:00]	 	is sometimes, and a few others do too
[15:00]	:	a bunch of coders and we can't automate that ;-)
[15:00]	:	Forum is keepable... different audience.
[15:01]	:	Merov: you need an automated transcript system. There are legal issues becoming important here, and it's needed.
[15:01]	:	Thanks Geneko!
[15:01]	:	need a parser for the server chat logs
[15:01]	:	Maybe we should post transcripts to the forum
[15:01]	 	thinks inventory giving needs more feedback.
[15:02]	:	we haven't discussed anything legal and I'll refrain discussing any personally as IANAL
[15:02]	:	Dzonatas: +1
[15:02]	:	Why not on the Wiki?
[15:02]	:	well, link to the wiki, not full transcript
[15:02]	:	I know that other OH have done so
[15:02]	:	Wiki too. I just wonder if all forum users access the wiki.
[15:03]	:	having it visible on the forum is a big plus
[15:03]	:	I find them impossible to parse though...
[15:03]	:	but that's just me...
[15:03]	:	Why would you want to archive something to a forum?
[15:03]	:	That's what wikis are good for?
[15:04]	:	Having them attached to the wiki where we keep the agenda seems the good place to me
[15:04]	:	Mm: not post transcript to the forum, but a link to the wiki each week will let people know what things are happening, and hopefully enourage participation.
[15:04]	:	Merov: It was very simple before, when all we had was the GPL. Now that you are overriding the GPL for developers who develop for SL, every word you say is a legal statement concerning developers. (Unfortunately)
[15:04]	 	wonders if we need a forki or a wikum
[15:05]	:	we already have an unholy merge of blog and forum
[15:05]	:	the bloghorum
[15:05]	:	if anything, we may have too many comm channel, not too little...
[15:06]	:	hard to keep all of it flowing in sync (impossible really...)
[15:06]	:	If that's the case Merov, we're not using them very well. :-)
[15:06]	:	we are not, indeed
[15:07]	:	anyway, it's 3pm and I need to wrap up some things before the end of the day
[15:07]	:	UXIG here, yes?: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Hippotropolis/53/103/27
[15:07]	:	thanks for coming, I'll shoot an email to the list about the new meeting time
[15:07]	:	Thanks for the meet-up!! =)
[15:07]	:	Southwest corner I think, Dzon
[15:07]	:	fat nekkid Ruth
[15:07]	:	Cyu Merov
[15:08]	:	Robin, can you add a note about "weekly meeting in Hippotropolis, see wiki for details" to the Snowglobe group description?
[15:08]	:	see you next week (or earlier :) )
 
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