Doc Team/2008-02-08

[13:57] You: Hello Becky. Welcome back to Documentation Office Hours!
[13:57] You: Er... in 3 minutes or so.
[13:57] Becky Pippen: thanks, Hiya, and Happy Friday!
[13:57] You: Thanks. TGIF :-)
[13:58] You: Hello Saijanai. Welcome to Documentation Office Hours :-)
[13:59] Saijanai Kuhn: yo
[13:59] Becky Pippen: Hi Saijanai, I like your summary page for the Mono
[13:59] Becky Pippen: JIRA issues
[14:00] Saijanai Kuhn: yeah, these old eyes have a hard time scanning that. I do it once a day anyway to update thepage
[14:00] You: Eh?
[14:00] Saijanai Kuhn: have hard time scanning the jira
[14:00] Becky Pippen: it's time-consuming fer sure
[14:00] Saijanai Kuhn: This: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Saijanai_Kuhn/Mono_issues vs this: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1276
[14:01] You: Heh. I'll agree with that. It's hard to organize so much information, though.
[14:02] Saijanai Kuhn: it probably wouldn't make sense for most of hte other issues, but mono has special error messages and such and there's a LOT of people finding thesame errors
[14:02] You: Wow. I'm something of an LSL enthusiast myself, but I've got very little software engineering training outside Second Life.
[14:03] You: I should play with Mono a bit more, I guess!
[14:03] Saijanai Kuhn: it was more interesting before they added all the delays back in...
[14:03] Becky Pippen: hehe
[14:03] Saijanai Kuhn: but we knew they had to
[14:03] You: I bet... when did that happen?
[14:03] Saijanai Kuhn: I guess with the first update of the sims.
[14:04] You: Hello Brigitta1! Welcome to Documentation Office Hours.
[14:04] Brigitta1 Ballyhoo: hi
[14:04] Saijanai Kuhn: for a couple of days, you had zero delay on certain calls and we were getting silly results like 100 rotations in 0.04 seconds
[14:04] You: I'd actually love to see a reduction in delays on things like llSleep and the timers... it would make musical instruments more viable, for instance.
[14:05] Saijanai Kuhn: yeah. right now, link messagse and sleep are actually slower in mono than without
[14:05] Saijanai Kuhn: not sure about timer response time
[14:05] You: Hm. Really? I found that to be true only before I recompiled for Mono.
[14:05] Saijanai Kuhn: maybe its changed again. I haven't run the tests i a couople of days
[14:05] Becky Pippen: and it's funny when llSetTime() stops working when there's a tight loop with no library calls
[14:06] Becky Pippen: i mean llGetTime()
[14:06] Saijanai Kuhn: hdan't noticed that one. Don't think its jiraed, is it?
[14:06] Becky Pippen: it is.
[14:06] Saijanai Kuhn: doh. I check them every day and haven't noticed it
[14:06] You: Heheh. Anyway, I'm not the right person to really talk to about Mono, obviously. Do you guys have any documentation concerns this week?
[14:07] You: *cricket*
[14:08] Saijanai Kuhn: not per se. I'm doing the volunteer work for the AWG, documenting the client server porotocols on thewiki. Just thought I'd drop in for a bit
[14:08] You: Ah, glad you could make it! The wiki's a little bit out-of-scope here, but I do occasionally refer to it when I'm writing Knowledge Base articles.
[14:09] You: We tend to reserve the wiki for very technical subjects that we feel are too confusing for the KB, like the technicaly details of sculpties.
[14:09] Saijanai Kuhn: sure. And my stuff is geekier than that usually. But it IS documentation ;-)
[14:09] You: And by "we" I mean me and Jon at the moment... It's a wiki, so it's open to whatever anyone puts in :-)
[14:09] You: Indeed!
[14:10] You: Hello Zuis. Welcome to Documentation Office Hours!
[14:10] Zuis Mertel: Hello and thnaks
[14:10] Saijanai Kuhn: I'm trying to figure out how group IM works. Its a scary topic
[14:10] Becky Pippen: ooohh! group IM code sounds like a rats nest
[14:10] You: Heh. I can't help much on the protocol side- I'm focused mainly on helping people learn to use the Viewer and Second Life's related web services.
[14:11] Saijanai Kuhn: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/ImprovedInstantMessage
[14:11] Saijanai Kuhn: its worse than it sounds, even
[14:11] Zuis Mertel: Jeremy if i my put a quetion
[14:11] WidgetHUD v1.1: Zuis Mertel has pinged you.
[14:11] Saijanai Kuhn: the problem is the documentaton doesn't really exist except in someone's head
[14:12] You: Of course, Zuis. Go ahead!
[14:12] Zuis Mertel: im native Portuguese
[14:12] Zuis Mertel: and the Viwer never seems to have taht linguge finalized can you help
[14:13] Zuis Mertel: or get me a contat because i wold like to help on that
[14:13] You: Hm. What do you mean by "finalized"?
[14:13] Saijanai Kuhn: localized?
[14:13] Babbler3.17: localizzato?
[14:13] Zuis Mertel: thara are many words that are in ingles wen we activate the portuguese version
[14:14] Saijanai Kuhn: language localization
[14:14] Zuis Mertel: yes Localzation of the viwer is not as good as it can be
[14:14] Babbler3.17: localizzazione di lingua
[14:14] You: Ah. Hmm... That sounds like something that should be in public Jira, probably as a feature request.
[14:15] You: jira.secondlife.com
[14:15] Zuis Mertel: Ok I will have a look then
[14:15] Saijanai Kuhn: I know there's someone who does a lot of work on Japanese localziation. Maybe you could ask her about what to do
[14:15] xSaijanai: Eu sei que há alguém que faz muitos do trabalho no localziation
japonês. Talvez você poderia perguntar-lhe sobre o que fazer
[14:16] You: I'm sorry I can't be more immediate help on that... It does appear that Portuguese language support is still in beta.
[14:16] Zuis Mertel: ya and i wold like to help it gets out of beta if possible
[14:16] Saijanai Kuhn: Alissa Sabre
[14:16] xSaijanai: Alissa Sabre
[14:17] Saijanai Kuhn: she des work on Japanese localization maybe should could point you to the right people
[14:17] xSaijanai: trabalho do DES no localization japonês talvez puder o apontar aos
povos direitos
[14:17] Saijanai Kuhn: she DOES work*
[14:17] xSaijanai: trabalha *
[14:17] Zuis Mertel: at the momento on the portuguese market si a big problem for adoption of sl
[14:17] Zuis Mertel: Thanks SAijana i will trie to ask here ;-)
[14:18] You: The official Linden channel I can direct you to is public Jira. I'm not sure who handles localization internally here, but when the Jira task is triaged, I think the right people will be notified.
[14:18] Time Minder: You have been online for 3 hours.
[14:18] Zuis Mertel: Ok Jeremy
[14:18] WidgetHUD v1.1: Zuis Mertel has pinged you.
[14:19] You: From a documentation perspective, is the Knowledge Base and/or F1 Help also a problem for Portuguese speakers?
[14:19] Zuis Mertel: yes big one
[14:20] Zuis Mertel: it satrat on orinetetion island where they almost quit after fiighting
[14:20] Zuis Mertel: with teh tuturial
[14:20] You: The language was incorrect?
[14:20] Roken Price: Hi
[14:21] Zuis Mertel: not incorrect but not in protuguese
[14:21] You: Hi Roken. Welcome to Documentation Office Hours.
[14:21] Roken Price: Thank you - this is my first "ijn world " meeting with Lindens
[14:22] Zuis Mertel: that wold go to may next question , can i translat a lot o things , and do not infringe copyright
[14:22] You: Heh. I'll try to make a good impression, Roken.
[14:22] Roken Price: LOL
[14:22] Roken Price: So what is the scope here
[14:23] You: Mostly the Knowledge Base, Roken... I have limited knowledge of other documentation projects, but I focus on helping people learn about how to use SL.
[14:23] Roken Price: I guess asking for a free sim is off the cards :)
[14:23] Saijanai Kuhn: talk to the libsl people
[14:23] xSaijanai: conversa aos povos do libsl
[14:23] Roken Price: OK - I spend a lot of my in world time doinfg that too
[14:24] You: As for translation, Zuis... I would suggest that you send a request to Support-- I can't comment on the legality of translating content from our website, but I know we have Lindens who are prepared with the right information.
[14:24] Arawn Spitteler: Isn't hte Wiki pretty much open for Translation?
[14:25] Zuis Mertel: is it?
[14:26] You: The wiki is a wiki... again, I don't know whether it's legal or not, but there must be precedent.
[14:26] Saijanai Kuhn: The wiki is mostly under teh Creative Comomons license as far as I know
[14:26] Saijanai Kuhn: or maybe its Share and Share ALike (or maybe htatis Createvie Commons)
[14:26] Zuis Mertel: i wil have a look at the wiki
[14:26] Saijanai Kuhn: maybe that is creative Common
[14:27] Saijanai Kuhn: I think the license agreement is at the bottm of the wiki pages
[14:27] You: Hm. That's actually an interesting bit of research.
[14:27] Saijanai Kuhn: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.5/ appears at the bottom of many wkik pages
[14:28] You: "You are free to copy, distribute and transmit the work. You are free to adapt the work."
[14:28] Roken Price: Isn't the Wiki - by it's very nature open to everyone - regardless of their first language?
[14:29] Saijanai Kuhn: sure, but copyright laws apply
[14:29] You: "Under the following conditions: You must attribute the work in the manner specified by the author or licensor. You must distribute the resulting work under the same or similar license."
[14:29] Saijanai Kuhn: but if you put original work on the SL wiki, then its automatically licesned by that license at the bottom of the page
[14:29] Roken Price: But I was under the impression that the Wiki licennse was an open license
[14:29] You: It's a creative commons license... it's pretty open, but there are rules.
[14:30] Saijanai Kuhn: it is. But for legal purposes they have to show it: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.5/
[14:30] You: It basically says "you can't take work that someone posted here for free, and then claim it as your own."
[14:31] You: So, as long as you indicate where it came from, and you share it just as freely, you should be all set.
[14:31] Roken Price: So much like any gnu license then
[14:31] Saijanai Kuhn: when in doubt, send an email to Rob LInden
[14:31] You: Hello Simon. Welcome to Documentation Office Hours.
[14:31] Roken Price: You can retain the rights - but the content is open
[14:31] Simon Kline: hi all! thankyou :))
[14:31] Saijanai Kuhn: he's in charge of the wiki or at least parts of it
[14:32] You: Yes, Rob, and I think Liana do a lot of work with the wiki.
[14:33] You: Heh. The wiki has come up a lot in the past few weeks-- I may have to expand my sphere knowledge to that area soon :-)
[14:33] Saijanai Kuhn: he's edited some ofmy stuff. Maybe Liana has too
[14:34] You: As I'm sure you've heard me say already, I'm largely focused on the Knowledge Base, which tends to be less technical than the wiki.
[14:34] Simon Kline: the ever growing sphere of knowlege heh.. learning here is endless indeed
[14:34] Saijanai Kuhn: yep
[14:34] You: Quite so, Simon!
[14:35] Roken Price: That's the problem with SL documentation though - no one is really sure about rights issues - we have an open source platform, that no-one can comment on safe in the knowledge that they aren't br4eaking a tabboo
[14:35] Simon Kline: the knowledge base is great... i teach mentor orientaitons and ecourage new mentors to use it as their first line of research
[14:35] You: I'm glad to hear that :-)
[14:35] You: We'd also really appreciate any KB suggestions the Mentors can come up with, if they find something missing or unclear in the Knowledge Base.
[14:35] Saijanai Kuhn: well, my rule of thum is that if I let Rob know what I'm doing, he can check it for elgal and technical issues.
[14:36] Simon Kline: i guess you guys see statistics on how much the knowledge base is being used..... have you found the traffic is growing since publishing weekly on the SL blog?
[14:36] Saijanai Kuhn: I'm sure some of it is. You upt the pointer to it on the login screen so people should know about it...
[14:37] You: Hm. I haven't checked the numbers myself, but Jon Linden (our KB editor, who is usually here) probably has a good handle on it!
[14:37] Roken Price: As a user - I find the KB less use than the JIRA
[14:37] Simon Kline: ahh cool
[14:37] You: How so, Roken?
[14:37] Saijanai Kuhn: less useful? The jira is just for bug-fixes and suggestions...
[14:38] Roken Price: Jira keeps me informed of known problems - and I'm techinical ebough to know where the common problems are
[14:38] Kakolcia Kanto shouts: air
[14:38] You: Ahh. Yes, the KB is much more for learning about expected functionality and how the viewer -should- work :-)
[14:39] Saijanai Kuhn: there are better ways of organizing that info then jira though
[14:39] Roken Price: True - Jira is a minefield
[14:39] Saijanai Kuhn: shameless plug: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Saijanai_Kuhn/Mono_issues
[14:39] You: Saijanai, is that something that could be saved as a Jira search filter?
[14:39] Simon Kline: one comment i hed about the Knowledge Base is i find it hard that I can't give ppl a direct link to a particular KB page
[14:40] Roken Price: It would be nice to see a consolidated approach to issues
[14:40] Saijanai Kuhn: not right now. Comments and the dubug message, if there is one, aren't part of the search results
[14:40] Kakolcia Kanto shouts: heart
[14:40] Simon Kline: hehe saijanai.. i accidentally crashed a sim on the test grid with the llLookAt rotatin issue.. that's all fixed now tho :D
[14:41] You: Hm. Yes, that's an unfortunate situation we're trying to resolve, Simon. We'll be rolling out a Support portal renovation in about a month or so, which should fix a lot of those problems.
[14:41] Saijanai Kuhn: I've talked with Sidewinder and Periapse about if that could be changed but its not trivial to do
[14:41] Simon Kline: oh awesome jeremy :D
[14:41] WidgetHUD v1.1: Simon Kline has pinged you.
[14:41] Saijanai Kuhn: Is it marked that way? I tried to color code the issues if they're fixed/closed/reopened etc
[14:41] Krise Shepherd: hi guys sorry i am late
[14:41] You: For now, though... you can use this link format: https://secondlife.com/community/support.php?questionID=[article number, after the dash]
[14:41] Roken Price: MAy I offer an example of where there is little accessable information
[14:41] You: Hi Krise. Welcome to Documentation Office Hours.
[14:41] You: Welcome Kakolcia, too!
[14:42] Simon Kline: ohhh TY :D this will be super handy!
[14:42] Kakolcia Kanto: hi
[14:42] Roken Price: The Havok 4 experiment
[14:43] Saijanai Kuhn: can't figure out how to do the same for Havok 44. I gues I could just do the comments in a table
[14:43] Roken Price: there is no info that I can find that suggests whether he trial is now real world - or still the test gtrid
[14:43] Saijanai Kuhn: andrew and sidewinder hold office hours for H4 2x a week
[14:43] Saijanai Kuhn: its both, ROken
[14:43] Becky Pippen: THat's been blogged pretty well
[14:43] Simon Kline: it's now rl on over 300 sims that have agreed to test it
[14:43] Saijanai Kuhn: there are now 400+ sims
[14:44] Becky Pippen: 435 sims this week, I think.
[14:44] Saijanai Kuhn: mono is still beta only
[14:44] You: True. I think Region owners have to request Havok4, but it should be on the main grid now.
[14:44] Roken Price: I mean - does a standard viewer see the H4 benefit
[14:44] You: The physics engine is server-side, so there should be no need for a special viewer.
[14:44] Roken Price: and if so - why is there still a H4 viewre
[14:44] Saijanai Kuhn: there is no "benefit" in the viewer. RIght now its stability issues
[14:45] Saijanai Kuhn: Roken, think that is for the beta gird
[14:45] Saijanai Kuhn: you use that viewer andyou automatically log into the beta grid
[14:45] Becky Pippen: there's one viewer for the ADITI grid, which now is running a mix of Havok 4 and Mono regions.
[14:45] Zuis Mertel: Havok for is now on 300 regions on the maisn grid
[14:45] Roken Price: That's my point - it isn;t vclear
[14:45] Arawn Spitteler: Content to Hover is a Havoc 4 Sim, where the meetings are held. Vineland and Birmingham City are also, to my knowledge
[14:46] Saijanai Kuhn: If youcheck the About Second LIfe menu under the help menu, you get info about the sim and theviewer
[14:46] You: Havok4 chat is better reserved for Havok4 office hours, though... I don't know much about it, other than what you guys know :-)
[14:47] Roken Price: I'm a "simple" user - with all the viewers up and running
[14:47] Saijanai Kuhn: you know as much as me. I don't do physics testing/scripting
[14:47] Roken Price: But I lose track of demarcation
[14:47] Becky Pippen: There's good stuff in the blog and wiki, but .... anything in the KB?
[14:47] Saijanai Kuhn: Roken, if any viewer if you use the help menu and select "About Second LIfe" you will get info
[14:48] You: Beta viewer shortcuts usually have the beta server name (ADITI, for instance) in parentheses in their name.
[14:48] You: Oh, about beta viewers, Becky?
[14:48] Becky Pippen: just that there's one for ADITI, which runs a mix of sim versions
[14:48] Roken Price: I understand that - but that doesn;t tell me where - eg - the havok veiwer is required when real world testing is underway
[14:49] Becky Pippen: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Havok_4_Beta_Home
[14:49] You: Well, ADITI doesn't always use a mix of sim versions... it's a beta environment, which means that the sims there change depending on what we're testing.
[14:49] Roken Price: Becky - you kiss my point
[14:49] Roken Price: miss - I mean
[14:49] Saijanai Kuhn: oken, therei s no H4 viewer
[14:49] Roken Price: Fruedian slip
[14:49] Becky Pippen: :-)
[14:49] Zuis Mertel: Roken is server side , not viwer
[14:49] Saijanai Kuhn: its a viewer that takes you to the beta grid
[14:50] Roken Price: No - but there is a test viewer that takes you to the test grid
[14:50] Saijanai Kuhn: you can travel to a H4 sim using any viewer and get the same "benefits" from Havok 4
[14:50] Arawn Spitteler: Technically, the Havoc 4 upgrade is not supposed to be Client Side Visible, so any KB article is either historical, or describing a bug
[14:50] Saijanai Kuhn: and there are 300-400 sims here
[14:50] Roken Price: And so - the documentation doessn't make it clear
[14:51] Saijanai Kuhn: using H4 so you don't even need to use the beta grid to test it unless it is a really spiffy (dangerous to the sim) test
[14:51] Becky Pippen: hmmm... I've found the information in the blog and wiki to be pretty clear... I guess I'm missing something too :-)
[14:52] You: Hm. This may call for an article on the difference between Havok1 and Havok4. We do have an article on the "heterogeneous grid" project, which aims to mix Havok1/Havok4, Mono/LSL2 and other sim types on the same grid.
[14:52] Roken Price: OK - Let me put it a different way
[14:52] Roken Price: The Blog says - There's a new havok 4 viewre avaialble
[14:52] Roken Price: And right after that
[14:53] Zuis Mertel: Roken this is on avok 4 http://slurl.com/secondlife/100Limite/103/101/24
[14:53] Roken Price: an offer to sims to upgrade to H4
[14:53] You: regarding het-grid: https://secondlife.com/community/support.php?questionID=4560
[14:53] Roken Price: My point is - you have to hunt for the info
[14:54] Roken Price: When an announcement is blogged
[14:54] Roken Price: it should be clear
[14:54] Zuis Mertel: is a good point ;-)
[14:54] You: Roken- the latest Havok4 blog post said there was a new viewer availabled?
[14:54] You: er, available?
[14:55] Roken Price: And you prove my point
[14:55] Becky Pippen: ?
[14:55] Roken Price: Havok 4 doesn't require a new client
[14:56] You: It doesn't appear to-- it looks like just what it said: 435 regions were updated with fixes. Regions are server-side things, and require no new viewer.
[14:56] Simon Kline: the hetgrid article is a good on :D
[14:57] Simon Kline: clear and to the point without complicating it :D
[14:57] You: Hi Rosario. Welcome to Documentation Office Hours.
[14:57] You: Heh. Glad you like it, Simon. Clear and to the point is a key concept in online writing :-)
[14:57] Simon Kline: and it mentons mono so i thought it would've been modified recently but it says it was modified 8/16/07
[14:58] You: That looks like it was originally a blog post. It would be interesting to see when the original post was made.
[14:59] Simon Kline: no u mention it i do remeber a simmilar blog post
[15:00] Simon Kline: are you guys thinking of doing an article concerning mono and what it is?
[15:00] Simon Kline: or even a list of words used in sl with basic definitions like the SL dictionary
[15:01] You: We should, Simon. Usually we wait until something hits the main grid before committing to an article about it. Otherwise, the feature can be subject to a lot of change before it's done.
[15:01] Simon Kline: yeah so true that's understandable :D
[15:01] You: I think we may have a glossary somewhere, Simon. If we don't, we should!
[15:01] Becky Pippen: I helped make a glossary for NCI
[15:01] Becky Pippen: it's freely available
[15:01] Simon Kline: haha glossary! that's the word is was looking for heh
[15:01] You: Here's one... http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Glossary
[15:02] You: Not too complete, but a good start.
[15:02] Simon Kline: hehe indeed :D
[15:02] You: Anyway, does anyoen have any final comments or questions before we wind down for this week?
[15:03] Simon Kline: no thanks Jeremy, thankyou for your time! it was great seeing you ^^
[15:03] WidgetHUD v1.1: Simon Kline has pinged you.
[15:03] Becky Pippen: Thanks Jeremy!
[15:03] WidgetHUD v1.1: Becky Pippen has pinged you.
[15:03] You: It was great to have you all here! I think this may be the largest crowd I've had here so far :-)
[15:03] Krise Shepherd: yeah thanks
[15:03] Arawn Spitteler: I was actually looking for the Official Scripting Guide, Secrets of Scripting, but couldn't find a way there, from F1
[15:03] You: And we touched on some good topics, too!
[15:04] You: Hm. Arawn, I think you can get there from Help > Scripting Guide
[15:04] Simon Kline: if you click help in the viewer, you can see scripting guide and the scripting portal too ^^
[15:04] Arawn Spitteler: Wrong turn, on my part, but it should also have been somewhere through F1
[15:06] You: Hm. True. We're working on improving F1 help as well. It's our aim to get it to bring up the Support portal in an inworld browser window.
[15:08] Simon Kline: nice the inworld browser works really well now...very basic but does the job.. if u go to something like help.. in world help you can type in any web address and it comes up there :D
[15:08] You: Indeed!
[15:09] You: Anyway, I think we need to wrap up for this week. Thanks for coming everyone! Please come again :-)
[15:09] Simon Kline: thankyou Jeremy
[15:09] WidgetHUD v1.1: Simon Kline has pinged you.
[15:09] Simon Kline: have a good weekend :D
[15:09] Becky Pippen: Bye
[15:09] Arawn Spitteler: Help Island has something refering to F1, so people might go there, rather than the Help Menu, until they learn better, and there shouldn't, in principle, be better to learn
[15:09] You: You too.
[15:09] Zuis Mertel: thankyou Jeremy ;-)
[15:09] WidgetHUD v1.1: Zuis Mertel has pinged you.
[15:09] Saijanai Kuhn: nice meeting you Jeremy6
[15:09] WidgetHUD v1.1: Saijanai Kuhn has pinged you.
[15:09] Simon Kline: if any of you are looking for something to do after this Jeska linen's office hour is on at Ambleside hehe :D
[15:09] You: Likewise!
[15:10] You: Heh. Jeska's great :-)
[15:10] Krise Shepherd: have a nice weekend everybody :-)
[15:10] Arawn Spitteler: Remember to tell Jon of the Hundred ravening beasts, that only wanted to tear off his claw
[15:10] You: Bye! Have a good weekend!
[15:10] Krise Shepherd: btw i have a presentation on sl on monday
[15:10] Krise Shepherd: to a big customer in germany
[15:10] You: Cool!
[15:10] Arawn Spitteler: My map is trying to send me two hundred meters above ambleside?
[15:11] Arawn Spitteler: I think it's a new featuree
[15:11] Krise Shepherd: they want to invest into branding and sl is an option for them
[15:11] Simon Kline: hehe ambleside 13/92 in the bottom corner .. tc all gret seeing you :D
[15:13] You: Okey doke.... later everyone, for real this time :-)
Category: Documentation Office Hours