Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2011.10.21

Simulator_User_Group
Prev 2011.10.18	Next 2011.10.25
== List of Speakers ==
Andrew Linden 	Ashiri Sands 	Fancy Detector
Helena Lycia 	Jonathan Yap 	Kaluura Boa
Kelly Linden 	Leonel Iceghost 	Liisa Runo
lonetorus Habilis 	Motor Loon 	Moundsa Mayo
Nalates Urriah 	Pauline Darkfury	Rex Cronon
Sahkolihaa Contepomi	Simon Linden 	TankMaster Teichmann
Vincent Nacon 	Yuzuru Jewell 	
== Transcript ==
[16:02] Helena Lycia: Hello Andrew
[16:02] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Hey Andrew.
[16:02] Andrew Linden: hello
[16:02] Simon Linden: What happened yesterday, Helena?
[16:02] TankMaster Teichmann: lol
[16:02] Vincent Nacon: ahhh my dinner!
[16:02] Helena Lycia: All the vanishing megaprims
[16:02] TankMaster Teichmann: i see we have foob now
[16:03] Simon Linden: That is the biggest sushi I've seen
[16:03] Vincent Nacon: where does this mega prim vanishing? it doesn't seem to affect everywhere
[16:03] Moundsa Mayo: Hadda have enough to feed everyone
[16:03] Helena Lycia: Doesn't of sims
[16:03] Andrew Linden: hrm... I see I now have the new sidebarless beta viewer today
[16:03] Liisa Runo: we have a jira already? sounds like serious bug
[16:03] Helena Lycia: Dozens of sims
[16:03] Helena Lycia: Yes, there was a JIRA but I'd have to hut for it
[16:03] Vincent Nacon: guess the race tracks are lucky
[16:03] Kaluura Boa: There is a Jira
[16:03] Helena Lycia: Loads of sims had to be rolled back
[16:03] TankMaster Teichmann: haha yes, isn't it wonderful? :P
[16:04] TankMaster Teichmann: no sidebars! :D
[16:04] Vincent Nacon: anywho... starting off with any news for today?
[16:04] Helena Lycia: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7382
[16:04] JIRA-helper: [#SVC-7382] Many commonly used megaprims blacklisted
[16:04] Andrew Linden: I only noticed when the chatbar wasn't where I wanted it to be
[16:04] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Heh...
[16:05] Vincent Nacon: fine I'll be nice... *clones it*
[16:05] Nalates Urriah: dockable buttons are nice
[16:05] Pauline Darkfury: To save people reading, support did it _again_, pushed the much too easy to push "blacklist creator grid wide" button, or equivalent, presumably in response to some juvenile idiot griefing with that creator's prims
[16:05] Andrew Linden: Sorry I wasn't here on Tuesday. I was out sick.
[16:05] Vincent Nacon: no worry
[16:05] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Aw. Hope you're feeling better.
[16:05] Vincent Nacon: long as you're feeling better
[16:05] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
[16:06] Rex Cronon: hopefully u r feeling better andrew:)
[16:06] Rex Cronon: was it just a cold/flue?
[16:06] Andrew Linden: I only have one bit of news: I think I have a fix for SVC-7379 that is going into the next main-server project
[16:06] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7379
[#SVC-7379] For group notices groupID is being sent in the AgentID field
[16:06] Andrew Linden: which is about to go into QA
[16:06] Vincent Nacon: know which creator was it?
[16:06] Simon Linden: Ah, that explains why I didn't hear about that, Pauline ... yeah, that sounds like a painful support misadventure
[16:07] Simon Linden: They should build a whitelist for the blacklist :P
[16:07] Andrew Linden: Also, last week I brought up some regions on an experimental fix for SVC-5927
[16:07] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-5927
[#SVC-5927] Temp on Rezzed objects get queued
[16:07] Pauline Darkfury: That button really needs to be hidden in a locked bunker, requiring the turn of 2 keyswitches 20' apart simultaneously, and only after an emergency action message is authenticated!
[16:07] Andrew Linden: I think they had one battle and it looked pretty good
[16:08] lonetorus Habilis: it was swagoth's prim
[16:08] lonetorus Habilis: err, creator
[16:08] Andrew Linden: so I made a few slight modifications to that and put it into the next main-server
[16:08] Vincent Nacon: ahh never heard of him
[16:08] Leonel Iceghost: but even if they where no megaprims, it is dangerous to delete all prims from a creator.. what if I buy something to them?
[16:08] Pauline Darkfury: The really sad thing, is it's _identical_ to a major grid-wide incident in the first couple of months of this year
[16:08] Andrew Linden: we should test it again before it hits RC
[16:08] Andrew Linden: I can coordinate that. I'll aproach my former contacts for another test on an agni combat region.
[16:09] lonetorus Habilis: leonel, i agree, this should not be a vviable 1st line support option
[16:10] Vincent Nacon: maybe the blacklist need a filter ban/remove like when matches with same creator's name and owner's name, even if both names aren't the same, long as it file under those match
[16:10] Moundsa Mayo: Good to hear, Andrew. Some folks will be happy!
[16:10] Andrew Linden: that's all the news I had (and I wasn't talking about the accidental incorrect blacklist, but the SVC-5927 fix)
[16:10] Vincent Nacon: nice
[16:10] lonetorus Habilis: do these gun makers use paralel llrezobject() ?
[16:10] Vincent Nacon: about time to get that out of the way
[16:11] Helena Lycia: Are measures being put into place to prevent a future accidental blacklist?
[16:11] Andrew Linden: I don't know anything about the fallout of that incident.
[16:12] Simon Linden: Nor I ... the internal tools people would be the ones to work on it
[16:12] Vincent Nacon: maybe the blacklist need a new function like, stopping scripts instead of removing/return
[16:12] Simon Linden: That feature, however, is essential to combating griefers
[16:12] Motor Loon: ..when used right ,-)
[16:12] Vincent Nacon: so LL can have time to research weither it's best to remove them for good or what not
[16:12] lonetorus Habilis: then a whitelist ppl in good standing with payment on file etc?
[16:13] Simon Linden: Right, Motor
[16:13] Pauline Darkfury: It could really do with some review from you guys, such as to have a preview feature that gives them a rough warning of the scale of what they are about to do, e.g. number of regions where the content is, number of distinct owners, histogram of rez dates, i.e. the key info which might make them stop and go "hey, maybe this is widely used for legit stuff?"
[16:13] lonetorus Habilis: or a score system, where the more trust (surely you have something like this ) you have in a resident, the less likely they will have their prims blacklisted
[16:13] Motor Loon: wait a minute.... there's bacon... and I didn't get any?
[16:13] Vincent Nacon: don't look at me
[16:13] Leonel Iceghost: good idea Pauline
[16:14] Pauline Darkfury: Oh, and to add insult to injury, it admin-deleted stuff, so people can't easily just rez from Lost & Found
[16:14] Vincent Nacon: of course
[16:14] Vincent Nacon: logically the best way to handle it
[16:14] Motor Loon: There's daddys bacon
[16:14] Vincent Nacon: but... how is the question
[16:15] Simon Linden: That would be wonderful, Pauline, but pretty expensive to do ... essentially scanning the whole grid. The sims that might be under attack would be the ones that might not reply
[16:15] Andrew Linden: hrm... that big piece of bacon appeared to collide like a sculpty
[16:15] Pauline Darkfury: Yeah, I realise I just described a hideous DB trawl
[16:15] Pauline Darkfury: Just _something_ to give them a clue as to how bad an idea it is
[16:15] Leonel Iceghost: Simon it is to see if the prims are used in 8475384 sims, no matters if they don't reply
[16:15] lonetorus Habilis: andrew, indeed, it was a really early sculpty, before i figured out how to do it proportional to he colour space of the sculpt map
[16:16] Helena Lycia: The problem I see is that if griefers realise that causing grief with objects created by certain people will cause grid-wide deletions then they can do much more damage than messing up one sim
[16:16] Kaluura Boa: Maybe just a serie of dialogs like in Windows: Are you sure? Are you really sure? Are you absolutely sure?
[16:16] lonetorus Habilis: simon, and how about the score system i suggested?
[16:16] Pauline Darkfury: I think that with 2 high profile incidents this year, and a number historically, the griefers probably know very well that they can get support to do grid-wide griefing on their behalf
[16:16] Andrew Linden: It would be hard to query the world for an impact measurement in a quick way.
[16:17] Andrew Linden: I'd guess it would take about 10 min to get an answer at least.
[16:17] lonetorus Habilis: seems about the right holding time before they return all prims XD
[16:17] Motor Loon: 10mins vs. weeks of going thru tickets- rolling back sims, and restoring inventory
[16:17] Motor Loon: seems like a good deal to me
[16:18] Andrew Linden: I had some ideas once on how to make the simulator grief response more automatic and locally responsive
[16:18] Andrew Linden: but I've forgotten some of them
[16:18] Motor Loon: stop letting them back in?
[16:19] Andrew Linden: and the system has changed a bit since the last time I worked on it.
[16:19] Vincent Nacon: if( (Targetted_Object_Creator == Get_Object_Creator) && (Targetted_Object_Owner == Get_Object_Owner) ) { KillObjectAcrossGide(key); }
[16:19] lonetorus Habilis: and i guess you cant talk about current measures?
[16:19] Rex Cronon: i think the best idea would be to let each individual sim owner to manage that how he/she sees fit:)
[16:19] Vincent Nacon: Grid*
[16:20] lonetorus Habilis: rex, mainland?
[16:20] Vincent Nacon: that too, but on mainland is another issue
[16:20] Rex Cronon: both mainland and private islands
[16:21] Vincent Nacon: lindens can't managed every sims on mainland by hand
[16:21] Simon Linden: Counting objects might also be problematic ... I wonder if we could tell the difference between a popular creator's items and a griefer with a grey-goo attack. Maybe we'd have to look at age as well
[16:21] Vincent Nacon: yes that too
[16:21] Vincent Nacon: but...
[16:21] Pauline Darkfury: Mmm, here's an "easy" approach
[16:22] Vincent Nacon: I could rez stuff and wait out a month or two before calling the attack
[16:22] Pauline Darkfury: Get the blacklist to only hit stuff rezzed within the last 60 mins
[16:22] lonetorus Habilis: and the general avatar risk acessment rank?
[16:22] Liisa Runo: why we look at creator at all? cant just grid wide wipe by owner? should be enough
[16:22] Rex Cronon: usually griefers have throw-away acounts that r few days old
[16:22] Pauline Darkfury: And report back on other older stuff
[16:22] Pauline Darkfury: The same process which does the deleting should be in an ideal place to generate the report needed to assess if the time period should be longer
[16:22] Pauline Darkfury: At least that limits damage
[16:23] Motor Loon: I still think solving the problem at the root is the best approach - it's just too easy to get into Second Life after being banned
[16:23] Vincent Nacon: that too
[16:23] Pauline Darkfury: It should solve probably 80% of the immediate problem, plus provide the info to solve the remaining 20% with less disaster
[16:23] Vincent Nacon: but Motor.... we kinda did do something about it before and it didn't fair out well for LL
[16:24] Vincent Nacon: back 4 or 3 years ago
[16:24] Motor Loon: are you talking about the IP ban systems vincent?
[16:24] Rex Cronon: u could put those that return from being banned to do "comumity work" :)
[16:24] Pauline Darkfury: the resident solutions to griefer-alt-banning will always be fundamentally flawed
[16:24] Simon Linden: I don't see how we can stop people from re-entering ... it's just too hard to identify the real source of accounts
[16:24] Vincent Nacon: that's one of them
[16:24] Motor Loon: those was a joke in regards to greifers too...
[16:24] Vincent Nacon: was talking about the payment info
[16:25] Motor Loon: LL can't keep a griefer out - I've seen MAC banned avatars come right back over and over while laughing at the Linden to his face telling him "come on - give it your best shot, and I'll come right back in 2 minutes"...
[16:25] Vincent Nacon: and that "one account per IP" deal
[16:25] Helena Lycia: What about people with dynamic IP addresses?
[16:25] Motor Loon: IP are changed easy... even MACs can be spoofed
[16:26] Pauline Darkfury: Yeah, if you are the sort of person who thinks ToS is an amusing list of things to try to break, MAC, IP, it's all just trivial to bypass
[16:26] Vincent Nacon: doesn't matter, Helena
[16:26] Motor Loon: any 12 yr old can find out how to on some of the greifing forums out there
[16:26] Vincent Nacon: it's easy to change them anyway
[16:26] Leonel Iceghost: maybe tracking "last owner" would serve to ban people that receive griefing objects from another account...
[16:26] Liisa Runo: we cant prevent ppl from coming back. We just need to get good tools to deal with grief
[16:26] Leonel Iceghost: and maybe ban by "last owner" is better than ban by creator
[16:27] Rex Cronon: i am sorry but changing your mac is something quite normal. is not connectd to griefing
[16:27] Motor Loon: They'd often just share the script sourcecode on their forums, so people can paste it into a new object and continue...
[16:27] Ashiri Sands: Also need to prevent people turning into griefers as well
[16:27] Rex Cronon: if u don't have it in you, u won't turn into a griefer:)
[16:27] Leonel Iceghost: and those forums could be being halndled with law
[16:28] Motor Loon: Many of these guys gets banned from Second Life for something other than greifing per say, and figure they might aswell become greifers now they have nothing to losse.
[16:28] Vincent Nacon: yeah.... the Law doesn't really want to waste their man-hours and tax money on something like that
[16:28] Rex Cronon: leonel. have u ever heard of something called "freedom of speach"?
[16:28] Vincent Nacon: there's no freedom of "speach"
[16:29] Pauline Darkfury: well, tbh, back in my mis-spent youth on doing "interesting things" at 300 or 1200 baud on dialup, laws didn't really have all that much bearing on availability of grey & black info
[16:29] Andrew Linden: I'm paying attention, but just don't have many good ideas to add right now.
[16:29] Helena Lycia: Prosecute them in the UK then
[16:29] Motor Loon: The problem is how easy it is to make a new avatar really... if we atleast required payment info before you could rez objects outside your own land - it would help greatly.
[16:29] Andrew Linden: If I had the time I'd probably start by surveying the common types of grief attacks that trigger responses from LL.
[16:29] lonetorus Habilis: pauline and today there are markers on chemistry books at the council library ;)
[16:29] Rex Cronon: well. i think u might understeand even though typos show up:)
[16:30] Vincent Nacon: maybe check over the ARs as well?
[16:30] Andrew Linden: Then try to figure out how to prevent or mitigate them.
[16:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[16:30] Ashiri Sands: Also have a look at where attacks occur and who submits the ARs?
[16:30] Pauline Darkfury: heh, I was taught how to manufacture explosives at school, to give you an idea of how the world has changed
[16:30] Simon Linden: lol, my kid would love that school
[16:31] lonetorus Habilis: andrew, can you tell us if you already calculate a risk/behaviour rate on ppl?
[16:31] Helena Lycia: We weren't taught but managed to blow things up by accident
[16:31] lonetorus Habilis: pauline, i teach ppl how to make TATP in sl, its a great visual forusm for teaching ppl stuff ;)
[16:31] Rex Cronon: gee. how many people havent heard of baking powder and vinegar vulcano:)
[16:31] Vincent Nacon: vulcano?
[16:32] Vincent Nacon: haven't heard of that one
[16:32] Pauline Darkfury: it's like a volcano, but has pointy ears ;)
[16:32] Fancy Detector: Kelly Linden has arrived!
[16:32] Liisa Runo: ... (yea, times has changed, http://www.webomator.com/grafx2/blog/atomic_energy_lab_toy.jpg )
[16:32] Vincent Nacon: muhaha!
[16:32] TankMaster Teichmann: kelly!!! :D
[16:32] Rex Cronon: just google it:)
[16:32] Motor Loon: ey kelly
[16:32] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Hey Kelly.
[16:32] Andrew Linden: No, I don't think I'll comment on risk estimates.
[16:32] Helena Lycia: Hiya Kelly
[16:32] Kelly Linden: Hello.
[16:32] Vincent Nacon: anywho... Andrew, have you decided to give this a try? SVC-7372
[16:32] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7372
[#SVC-7372] Raise limit for VEHICLE_ANGULAR_MOTOR_DIRECTION
[16:32] Rex Cronon: hello
[16:33] Vincent Nacon: I figured 25 should be good instead of making it no cap at all
[16:33] Andrew Linden: no Vincent. I wasn't very keen on bumping that value.
[16:34] Motor Loon: Seems to be changing that might potential cause problem for existing content
[16:34] Andrew Linden: I think I'd rather examine your content for which you need it higher.
[16:34] Andrew Linden: Since your vehicles aren't actually turning really really fast, I'm wondering if there is another way to do what you want.
[16:35] Vincent Nacon: there are but... that's kinda best to wait for new vehicle API
[16:35] Vincent Nacon: and I don't wanna wait too long
[16:35] Helena Lycia: It's only a small thing but maybe some procedures after the fact could be changed. When the problem came to light it took quite a long time sorting out the correct response. The theory that this was a erroneous blacklist problem surfaced quickly in AW Groupies but it was very difficult to get information out of LL about what date/time to use for rollbacks (thanks Andrew for your help there), and it was actually quite a long time before it was acknowledged that it was a blackllist problem by LL... Also can the rollback support ticket be changed so one ticket can be raised for multiple sims?
[16:35] Vincent Nacon: :/
[16:35] lonetorus Habilis: yeah is falcon comming today? (re new vehicle api)
[16:36] Vincent Nacon: we're saving that talk for later, elo
[16:36] Vincent Nacon: leo*
[16:36] Vincent Nacon: cause it's a big and long talk
[16:36] Andrew Linden: The support team really needs a User Group...
[16:36] Vincent Nacon: aye
[16:36] TankMaster Teichmann: i thinhk thy used to
[16:36] TankMaster Teichmann: a long while ago
[16:36] Helena Lycia: That would help I think
[16:36] Rex Cronon: what would members in such a group do?
[16:37] Pauline Darkfury: yup, we need Land, Support, Abuse UGs (probably one for each)
[16:37] TankMaster Teichmann: complain, like they do anyway :P
[16:37] Simon Linden: Unfortunately I'd bet it would be over-run by people wiht their own issues to raise
[16:37] Andrew Linden: yeah, maybe that group would get out of control...
[16:37] Ashiri Sands: yep
[16:37] Liisa Runo: it would be awesome
[16:37] Vincent Nacon: used to remember those "townhall" meeting was so silly to host with all that people showing up 4 years ago.
[16:37] Rex Cronon: until u try it u don't actully know what will happen
[16:37] Pauline Darkfury: Yeah, Jack's OH did get a bit crazy sometimes, but at least it gave a "proper forum" for stuff which is kinda in limbo these days
[16:37] Moundsa Mayo: Yah, it should have it's own live vbideo feed.
[16:37] lonetorus Habilis: aww andrew, its been a while since anyone came torching your oh with pichfork in hand ;)
[16:38] Pauline Darkfury: Some of the transcripts do sound a bit torch+pitchforky
[16:38] Pauline Darkfury: But many of them looked actually useful and of value
[16:38] Liisa Runo: Jack had too big piece of the cake, his OH should be divided to pieces, land separate from the other stuff for starters
[16:39] Pauline Darkfury: Even when Jack's OH turned into a steam vent, that served a useful function, as it did provide sign to LL that there might be a problem to address
[16:39] Liisa Runo: ... but we really need SVC and land OH's
[16:39] Ashiri Sands: I think you'd need t use an agenda like the mesh UG used... or else chaos
[16:40] Leonel Iceghost: how about making some kind of "friends and places visited schema" for new people and use it as a "probability" to see if they are someone banned or not? something like facebook,
[16:40] lonetorus Habilis: is rod more public somewhere other than his quarterly blog posts?
[16:40] Rex Cronon: andrew doesn't have an agenda, and still this oh is not chaos:)
[16:41] Nalates Urriah: Rumor is Rod reads SLUinverse.
[16:42] Helena Lycia: Maybe Andrew has a secret agenda and that's why we don't cause trouble
[16:42] Vincent Nacon: maybe he's Philip Linden... who knows...
[16:42] Moundsa Mayo: SVC-6255
[16:42] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-6255
[#SVC-6255] llVolumeDetect issues single or multiple collision_start and collision_end events for linked object depending on link spacing during passage through volume
[16:42] Ashiri Sands: Maybe we are not into beating our own drums so much?
[16:42] Andrew Linden: I do have a secret agenda, but we talk about that in my other User Group.
[16:42] Pauline Darkfury: lol
[16:43] Moundsa Mayo: Over a year old and just tried it on Aditi yesterday. Same old same old.
[16:43] Nalates Urriah: Andrew figured out that Meeroos fart a mind control gas, which is why we are so calm.
[16:43] Vincent Nacon: anyone want to take a bet on "He's Philip Linden" part?
[16:43] Moundsa Mayo: That gas must only work in Denby ...
[16:43] Helena Lycia: If you're planning on taking over the world, can I join?
[16:43] Rex Cronon: he is not
[16:44] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: LOL Simon
[16:44] Vincent Nacon: I know
[16:44] Andrew Linden: hrm... I wonder how many people are using SVC-6255 as a feature now
[16:44] Vincent Nacon: wanted to make easy money too
[16:44] Pauline Darkfury: Ok, server/scripty stuff. I'm not certain, but I _think_ the OS upgrade may have solved/improved SVC-5040
[16:44] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-5040
[#SVC-5040] Script performance dropped on regions deployed on class 7 hardware since rolling restart (12 nov 2009)
[16:44] Vincent Nacon: ahh my dinner!
[16:44] Motor Loon: timewarp?
[16:45] Pauline Darkfury: So many different changes floating around that I can't be absolutely certain, but I'm seeing C7s which are giving abnormally good script perf
[16:45] Kelly Linden: I'd be very interested in any test results you have regarding that Pauline
[16:45] Pauline Darkfury: Yeah, I need to actually go run some tests
[16:46] Pauline Darkfury: Just using the timeslice measurement tools, seeing close to 1.0 timeslices on big script numbers on what should be 7s
[16:46] Pauline Darkfury: Have not yet confirmed if it's all of them
[16:46] Pauline Darkfury: And, given how elusive the root cause of that behaviour was, something inside the kernel would kinda fit
[16:47] Kelly Linden: Maybe
[16:47] Pauline Darkfury: certainly seeing it on main channel right now
[16:47] Vincent Nacon: I not really sure if SVC-6255 should be listed as bug
[16:47] Leonel Iceghost: they changed the kernel 12 nov 2009?
[16:47] Vincent Nacon: more of a logical issue
[16:47] Kelly Linden: My secret agenda is to sneak script tweaks in wherever I can. So who knows.
[16:47] Motor Loon: syysh
[16:47] lonetorus Habilis: so its u who broek mah sexbed?
[16:47] Pauline Darkfury: well, yeah, I can't be sure it's not some secret sauce you sneaked past QA ;)
[16:48] Kelly Linden: :)
[16:48] Kelly Linden: If you need something from me for testing or verifying a class or something let me know, IM or email.
[16:48] Pauline Darkfury: Will do
[16:49] Vincent Nacon: Lonetorus, please don't tell me you're gonna use that line when picking up gals that Kelly had done something to your bed
[16:49] Moundsa Mayo: Well then, a collision should occur for every prim in a linkset, multiples if simultaneous.
[16:49] Pauline Darkfury: Really just need to find some quiet regions of the right class & channel, then torture them in controlled ways ;)
[16:49] lonetorus Habilis: ...its tweaked with "sekret sauce"
[16:49] Pauline Darkfury: Well, that, and time to do it carefully & slowly, collate results, etc
[16:50] Moundsa Mayo: It's speed and prim-size variant.
[16:50] Moundsa Mayo: Well, center-position variant, not size.
[16:50] Kelly Linden: I have no comments on what I may or may not have done to any sexbed.
[16:51] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Hahaha
[16:51] Motor Loon: oooh golden quote there
[16:51] Ashiri Sands: O.O
[16:51] Pauline Darkfury: Oh, and as for verifying class, I've got some Python that spits out the full hidden info from sims now, so that bit is easy, if they are reliably self-reporting
[16:51] Kelly Linden: k
[16:52] Pauline Darkfury: I should even be able to tell you if one colo seems worse than another ;)
[16:52] Andrew Linden: How do the hosts report?
[16:52] Pauline Darkfury: Just the handshake between the viewer & server
[16:52] Vincent Nacon: thanks for the quote of the day, kelly
[16:52] Motor Loon: Gonna put it next to "[16:00] Oskar Linden: If I had an L$ for every resident that named a meroo after me in the hopes it would breed faster....."
[16:53] Pauline Darkfury: Use a very non-standard viewer, it's all there
[16:53] Pauline Darkfury: e.g. some of Enus' PyOGP stuff
[16:53] Pauline Darkfury: Or libomv
[16:54] Andrew Linden: Falcon has a question for this group:
[16:54] TankMaster Teichmann: just one? :P
[16:54] Rex Cronon: he wants to raycast us:)
[16:54] Andrew Linden: Does anyone have a really compelling reason to use VolumeDetect on dynamic objects? (where "dynami"c = [X] Physical)
[16:54] Vincent Nacon: your quote is now in my pick
[16:54] Moundsa Mayo: Everything is sex-related in some way, at some distance.
[16:55] Pauline Darkfury: e.g.
 self.CPUClassID = packet['RegionInfo3'][0]['CPUClassID']
 self.CPURatio = packet['RegionInfo3'][0]['CPURatio']
 self.ColoName = packet['RegionInfo3'][0]['ColoName']
 self.ProductSKU = packet['RegionInfo3'][0]['ProductSKU']
 self.ProductName = packet['RegionInfo3'][0]['ProductName']
 self.RegionID = packet['RegionInfo2'][0]['RegionID']
[16:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[16:55] Vincent Nacon: thanks motor for the meeroo one
[16:55] Liisa Runo: i have very good reason
[16:55] Rex Cronon: yes. for bullets
[16:55] Kaluura Boa: It lowers the lag created by physical objects.
[16:55] Helena Lycia: Timing gates on vehicle races?
[16:55] Motor Loon: yes... volumedetect is very often used on boats - to make certainly parts acts as phantom while keeping others for the avatar to stand on.
[16:55] Pauline Darkfury: That's in:
 def onRegionHandshake(self, packet):
 """ handles the response to receiving a RegionHandshake packet """
[16:55] Andrew Linden: VolumeDetect bullets?!
[16:55] Vincent Nacon: timing gate by Les White?
[16:55] Rex Cronon: possibly for swords. if it will ever work for attached things
[16:55] Liisa Runo: hot air balloon, physical, with phantom, it creates huge lag, with volumedetect it creates 90% less lag
[16:56] Rex Cronon: yes:)
[16:56] Motor Loon: timing gates wouldnt be physical
[16:56] Andrew Linden: Les' timing gate is dynamic?
[16:56] Helena Lycia: Oh
[16:56] Helena Lycia: You mean the object with volume detect is physical!
[16:56] Vincent Nacon: he use system's clock
[16:57] Rex Cronon: they can pass through anything and collide only with what u want:)
[16:57] Andrew Linden: Liisa, really? Phantom creates more lag than VolumeDetect?
[16:57] Vincent Nacon: but it's not physical
[16:57] Liisa Runo: also, nonphys tunneling device cant go undergound, but physical volumedetect prim can go
[16:57] Motor Loon: phantom affects the entire object
[16:57] Liisa Runo: yes, phantom calculates terrain collisions, volumedetect ignores them
[16:57] Kaluura Boa: I measured a difference from 15-20ms when phantom to only 2ms with volumeDetect(TRUE)
[16:58] Helena Lycia: I never thought about it before but it could be a novel way to do a sim scan using a physical volume detect megaprim
[16:58] Rex Cronon: i hope that falcon won't "fix" volume detect. i think lots of weapons use that function
[16:58] Motor Loon: CDS used that helena
[16:58] Liisa Runo: and terrain collision calculations happen way up above the visual terrain
[16:58] Rex Cronon: helena. u can buy one:)
[16:58] Vincent Nacon: he should fix it anyway... too much abuse in one way
[16:59] Kaluura Boa: Seriously, don't fix that!
[16:59] Helena Lycia: I don't really have a need for one these days
[16:59] Rex Cronon: there is no abuse
[16:59] Leonel Iceghost: terrain collisions are a bit buggy
[16:59] Motor Loon: nah, "fix" would break more content than the famous recent blacklisting
[16:59] Simon Linden: I wonder if we could optimize that somehow ... if we know something is above a calculated max land height, to shortcut some of the calculations
[16:59] Vincent Nacon: I was speaking out of logical sense
[16:59] Kaluura Boa: Fix the terrain collisions calculated up to 768m... Then we'll use phantom again...
[17:00] Vincent Nacon: but as for personal need.... I can't say
[17:00] Liisa Runo: and even fixing the tarrain calculations, we still have lots of other reasons to use cvolumedetect with phys
[17:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[17:00] Rex Cronon: don't need to "fix" something that is working:)
[17:00] Andrew Linden: I find that phantom-vs-VolumeDetect balloon performance claim hard to believe.
[17:00] Andrew Linden: If true there must be a bug in there.
[17:00] Vincent Nacon: yeah
[17:00] Liisa Runo: Andrew, we talked about this before, and you agreed with the terrain created lag
[17:01] Kaluura Boa: All the dirigibles in Caledon use volumeDetect for that very reason... I know, I scripted them... and was alarmed by the lag in the very first days...
[17:01] Andrew Linden: I think Falcon's problem is that megaprim physical VolumeDetect objects can be quite laggy.
[17:01] Vincent Nacon: it can be
[17:01] Motor Loon: depends what you use them for
[17:01] Vincent Nacon: even with 10m prims
[17:01] Kaluura Boa: I use megaprims in the dirigibles... It's wrong. No special lag...
[17:01] Helena Lycia: Of course you could now the Physics Shape type to make a prim phantom but it increases the PE of a concentional prim object to do so
[17:01] Andrew Linden: Oh hrm... phantom does "collide" against terrain, where as VolumeDetect does not.
[17:02] Liisa Runo: then throttle the part that creates lag, and give us ability to get volumedetect style phantomness without the collision detecting part
[17:02] Andrew Linden: Although, any regular dynamic megaprim also hits the terrain.
[17:02] lonetorus Habilis: andrew, is that because they engage all the "islands" of physical simulation in a sim?
[17:02] Rex Cronon: if u have 10 or more sim scanners that use volumedetect, it can get a little laggy
[17:02] Motor Loon: agrees with Liisa
[17:02] Kelly Linden: have a good weekend all
[17:02] Pauline Darkfury: Mmm, yeah, make PRIM_PHANTOM actually work for child prims, without any PE penalty?
[17:02] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Enjoy your weekend Kelly, Simon & Andrew.
[17:03] Simon Linden: I have to head out now ... thanks everyone for the usual excellent conversation
[17:03] Yuzuru Jewell: See you
[17:03] Vincent Nacon: aye, time for my real dinner
[17:03] Moundsa Mayo: Andrew, Simon, Kelly - thanks for your time and all your hard work!
[17:03] Pauline Darkfury: Thanks, Lindens
[17:03] Vincent Nacon: later all, thanks
[17:03] Simon Linden: and if someone could do the dishes, that'd be wonderful
[17:03] Motor Loon: yes pls to PRIM_PHANTOM
[17:03] Pauline Darkfury: Have a good weekend :)
[17:03] Motor Loon: wunder fix
[17:03] TankMaster Teichmann: have a good weekend everyone
[17:03] Ashiri Sands: =^_^=
[17:03] Rex Cronon: tc simon
[17:03] Rex Cronon: tc kelly
[17:03] Motor Loon: okies
[17:03] Rex Cronon: tc andrew
[17:03] Helena Lycia: Have a good weekend everyone
[17:03] Rex Cronon: tc everybody
[17:03] Motor Loon: off we go
[17:03] Jonathan Yap: I will do dishes if you are not feeding over 40 or 50
[17:03] Liisa Runo: PRIM_TRUE_PHANTOM == same as volumedetect exept not colliding with anything, super low lag
[17:04] Andrew Linden: thanks for coming everyone
[17:04] Motor Loon: lets get a jira on that Liisa... I'll vote for it
[17:04] TankMaster Teichmann: tc andrew
Simulator_User_Group
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