Commerce Office Hours/2009-10-14 21:00

* [20:57] HUDDLES EZ: Animator Deluxe v1.2.1 RC1: Touch '?' for instructions.
* [20:57] Argus Collingwood: I was at an earlier meeting, had some thoughts and decided to come again
* [20:57] Argus Collingwood: Hallooooo :) Genesis
* [20:57] VeiledVamp Veranes: oh good idea
* [20:58] Genesis Pangaea: smiles & waves
* [20:58] Could not: read the specified Config Notecard
* [20:58] Argus Collingwood: Hallooooo :) Rachel
* [20:58] Rachel Darling: Heya!
* [20:58] Rachel Darling: grins sheepishly
* [20:58] Rachel Darling: you're still in that same spot, Argus...it's a good look for you :-)
* [20:59] Rachel Darling: do tell me you went and had food at least...
* [20:59] Argus Collingwood: hahah I love it
* [20:59] Argus Collingwood: yes
* [20:59] Rachel Darling: smiles and chews her very late dinner, offering fried chicken all around
* [20:59] Argus Collingwood: and let our 6 kittens out of solitary
* [20:59] Rachel Darling: ah, that must have made them happy
* [20:59] Argus Collingwood: omg they are now a thundering herd
* [20:59] Rachel Darling: laughs
* [20:59] Rachel Darling: I'll bet
* [21:00] Colossus Linden: Hello all
* [21:00] Argus Collingwood: and the mom cat now hates them as she is in heat
* [21:00] Argus Collingwood: Hallooooo :)
* [21:00] Rachel Darling: waves
* [21:00] Colossus Linden: Hi Rachel
* [21:00] Rachel Darling: smiles
* [21:00] Rachel Darling: long night for you, Colossus
* [21:01] Rachel Darling: you'll be glad for your bed after this
* [21:01] Argus Collingwood: I bet
* [21:02] Rachel Darling: it's the flying Pink bunny....!
* [21:02] Argus Collingwood: Hallooooo :) Pink
* [21:02] Colossus Linden: Yeah, almost over Rachel.
* [21:02] Pink Linden: halloooo
* [21:02] Colossus Linden: How about yourself?
* [21:02] Pink Linden: hi Argus, genesis, rachel and veiled vamp!
* [21:02] Rachel Darling: yes, I'm early to bed and early to rise myself
* [21:02] VeiledVamp Veranes: Hi Pink
* [21:03] VeiledVamp Veranes: call me Vamp please everyone
* [21:03] VeiledVamp Veranes: anyone, lol
* [21:03] Rachel Darling: waves to Pink
* [21:04] Thunderclap Morgridge: hello?
* [21:04] Argus Collingwood: Hallooooo :) Thunderclap
* [21:04] Pink Linden: welcome Thunderclap!
* [21:04] Rachel Darling: Thunderclap...I know that name.
* [21:04] Thunderclap Morgridge: goodie
* [21:04] VeiledVamp Veranes: I don't even see a pink bunny yet
* [21:04] Thunderclap Morgridge: I was wondering
* [21:04] Pink Linden: waves!
* [21:04] Rachel Darling: she's hiding on the stump
* [21:04] Thunderclap Morgridge: so what are we talking about
* [21:04] Pink Linden: I like my stump all the better to see you with
* [21:04] VeiledVamp Veranes: ahhhh there you are
* [21:05] Thunderclap Morgridge: you know Pink is not nearly as intimidating as blue is
* [21:05] Pink Linden: small group....so we'll have a nice intimate chat tonight
* [21:05] Pink Linden: let's get started since the hour tends to fly by
* [21:06] Thunderclap Morgridge: Let me say I am very happy you did this being it is late for you all toio
* [21:06] Pink Linden: Colossus and Meta have been digging deeply into feedback given by merchants on freebies on XStreet
* [21:06] Pink Linden: you're welcome Thunderclap
* [21:06] Colossus Linden: your welcome Thunderclap
* [21:06] Thunderclap Morgridge: and
* [21:06] Thunderclap Morgridge: I am interested
* [21:06] Pink Linden: super!
* [21:07] Pink Linden: So I'm going to turn things over to Colossus since he's been leading the research and has some ideas to share
* [21:07] Pink Linden: Take it away!
* [21:07] Colossus Linden: Thanks Pink.
* [21:07] Colossus Linden: Hello all
* [21:07] VeiledVamp Veranes: :)
* [21:08] Cynthia Maine: Hello!
* [21:08] Colossus Linden: Agenda:
* 1. Issues
* - state issues
* - discuss issues
* 2. Solutions
* - present some options
* - accept other from crowd options
* - Discuss Options
* [21:08] Thunderclap Morgridge: hello
* [21:08] Colossus Linden: That's a short basic agenda. I'd like to start by clarifying the issues we face and feedback we've gotten from the community
* [21:08] Pink Linden: hi Cynthia, hi Eris
* [21:08] Colossus Linden: See what else you all have to add
* [21:08] Colossus Linden: Then I'd like to discuss some of the options for solving our problems and better enabling all of our merchants
* [21:08] Thunderclap Morgridge: oh I have opinions on issues
* [21:08] Colossus Linden: The Issue: We've gotten a lot of feedback that the number of FREE and CHEAP items in the Xstreet SL marketplace are a problem in a number of ways
* [21:09] Thunderclap Morgridge: why?
* [21:09] Argus Collingwood: (wb Toy)
* [21:09] Jada Humby: hello everybody :)
* [21:09] Toysoldier Thor: thanks
* [21:09] Pink Linden: hi Jada and welcome!
* [21:09] Colossus Linden: 1. They decrease the price that other merchants can charge within a category
* 2. They hinder the shopping experience because a "sort by price" puts all freebies first
* 3. They garner so much attention that residents are driven toward the freebies instead of quality, realistically priced items.
* 4. For us running the marketplace, they are a large percentage of transactions which have associated costs but no value, which means that that cost must shared by all users.
* [21:09] Thunderclap Morgridge: hello everytbiy
* [21:09] Colossus Linden: Overall, free & cheap items serve some benefits but the marketplace has become a bit flooded with them
* [21:09] Pink Linden: hi Toy, wb and please, for those who were here earlier today, no spoilers. 
* [21:09] Pink Linden: hi Maged
* [21:09] Colossus Linden: *benefit
* [21:09] Jada Humby: hi collosus :)
* [21:10] Thunderclap Morgridge: So what you are saying is that because people want to overcharge others get screwed?
* [21:10] Maged Wise: greetings Pink and every one
* [21:10] Colossus Linden: So, I'll give you all a chance to read those and provide some feedback as to if we've heard you accurately and if we've missed anything
* [21:10] Thunderclap Morgridge: I know that sounded harsh
* [21:10] Thunderclap Morgridge: but...
* [21:10] Jada Humby: Maged, Pink is the sweet little bunny
* [21:10] Jada Humby: hehe
* [21:10] Jada Humby: behind you
* [21:10] Pink Linden: waves
* [21:10] Maged Wise: cute :)
* [21:10] Colossus Linden: I hear you Thunderclap
* [21:10] Thunderclap Morgridge: if its a quality verses price issue that its a issue with the sorting
* [21:11] Colossus Linden: Let me first say that we believe Xstreet serves as a specialized shopping experience
* [21:11] Thunderclap Morgridge: I make quality items at a low price because they sell better
* [21:11] Colossus Linden: it shouldn't just be a replica of what is in-world
* [21:11] Thunderclap Morgridge: ok
* [21:11] Colossus Linden: We're trying to make it a better experience for both those shopping and selling
* [21:12] Thunderclap Morgridge: I understand and support that
* [21:12] Jada Humby: what about Xstreet Pink and colossus
* [21:12] Jada Humby: we have a bad time there atm
* [21:12] Thunderclap Morgridge: but I see nothing wrong with freebies as a whole
* [21:12] Jada Humby: means, not that much visitors as we had before the changes
* [21:12] Colossus Linden: Now, that said, I believe there is value that a merchant can get out of freebies, or out of cheap goods and if a merchant so chooses. But, I want to facilitate as many merchants as possible as best we can.
* [21:13] Pink Linden: Jada, actually traffic to XStreet overall is up substantially since the acquisition
* [21:13] Pink Linden: that said, there are many more merchants too
* [21:13] Colossus Linden: We'll get back to this as we discuss solutions Thunderclap, but I'd like to know more from you? What do you generally price your goods at?
* [21:13] VeiledVamp Veranes: Coloussus, are you able to say just how many freebie listings there are? there really does seem to be a flood of them
* [21:13] Thunderclap Morgridge: but that Pink is because you took out the sign up requiement
* [21:13] VeiledVamp Veranes: even a ballpark number
* [21:13] Thunderclap Morgridge: everyone now has an xstreet account
* [21:13] Jada Humby: thx, but will it get better again, or can we do something to make it running better?
* [21:15] Colossus Linden: Hey Jada, I want to stick to the topic for this office hours, but please contact me privately offline if you'd like to chat more on the subject of traffic
* [21:15] Jada Humby: okay :)
* [21:15] Colossus Linden: VeiledVamp, I can't disclose specific numbers, but I will say that they account for well more than their fair share of transactions while bringing in no monetary value
* [21:16] VeiledVamp Veranes: I'm sure they do
* [21:16] Thunderclap Morgridge: while I can see the biab and the other obvious bad freebies out there, it shouldnt perclude the use of free to faciliate promotions and items that are obviously way overcharged for
* [21:16] Colossus Linden: This is one of the issues. There are costs associated with listings and transactions and since freebies don't bring in any value, that cost is distributed out to all merchants and shoppers
* [21:17] Thunderclap Morgridge: I always felt it was like the free bucket at your local walmart or costco. Its a loss leader
* [21:17] Colossus Linden: Good points Thunderclap
* [21:17] Thunderclap Morgridge: its gives a sample of quality that allows people who want to buy to do so
* [21:18] Thunderclap Morgridge: honestly I have seen people charge 5 to 10 times for sometine I know takes 15 minutes to make if you are skilled
* [21:18] Colossus Linden: So, it's good to have your point of view Thunderclap. The earlier two sessions pretty much agreed with the issues. This is the first real dissent, but we haven't gotten to potential solutions yet, so we'll see.
* [21:19] Thunderclap Morgridge: So I always figuered that the market will sort it out. Of course people will be angry if they cant sell
* [21:19] Thunderclap Morgridge: well I do have solutions
* [21:19] Colossus Linden: That being said, many of the merchants earlier agreed that there is value, but that there are still too many
* [21:19] Thunderclap Morgridge: Yes thereis
* [21:19] Thunderclap Morgridge: The market is satuareted with it as well as trademark violtaions
* [21:20] Thunderclap Morgridge: which are still out there
* [21:20] Colossus Linden: I hear you and will attempt to sidestep the trademark violations sandpit for this office hours if I can :)
* [21:20] Thunderclap Morgridge: free jack daniels shirts nascar jackets jimmy choo shoes
* [21:20] Colossus Linden: We're working to improve the marketplace in many ways
* [21:20] Thunderclap Morgridge: ok point taken
* [21:21] Thunderclap Morgridge: yes that is appriciated
* [21:21] Colossus Linden: Thanks
* [21:21] Colossus Linden: Does anyone else have any comments, concerns, questions regarding the issue, or shall I move on to potential solutions?
* [21:22] Cherry Blossom: Tree: Falling Blossoms ON
* [21:22] Cherry Blossom: Tree : Falling Blossoms ON
* [21:22] Cynthia Maine: Sales have been very slow, I am interested in solutions
* [21:23] Thunderclap Morgridge: ok I want one of those cherry trees
* [21:23] Thunderclap Morgridge: :D
* [21:23] Jada Humby: agree Thunderclup :P
* [21:23] Thunderclap Morgridge: anyone?
* [21:23] Rachel Darling: Serenity Cutting Garden I think
* [21:24] Colossus Linden: I've come with a variety of options to help create some conversation and I'd like to hear what you think
* [21:24] Thunderclap Morgridge: it said dakota linden made them
* [21:24] Colossus Linden: 1. Limit to free listings or listings under price L$X - Hard limit of 3 per merchant. Perhaps a monthly fee to list those 3 or to have a higher limit
* 2. Time Limit - add an incentive to remove cheap items. No item under L$X can remain listed for more than a month
* 3. Marketing Enhancement. - Freebies and cheapies are used as a marketing tool. Just like listing enhancements they should be priced by the month. Make a monthly fee of L$99-L$2899 to list a freebie (just like listing enhancements)
* 4. Freebie Marketplace - Separate freebies into a separate shopping experience which is designed to better advertise the items which are not free. - create a new advertising opportunity
* 5. Removal - ban all freebies and all items below L$X
* [21:24] Argus Collingwood: I was in an earlier meeting so will defer
* [21:24] Thunderclap Morgridge: 4 is really the only viaable solution
* [21:24] Colossus Linden: I will mention that 5 for instance is something that I am not leaning toward, but I thought it was worth presenting as an option
* [21:24] Thunderclap Morgridge: everything else defeating the purpose of freebies
* [21:25] Toysoldier Thor: while sitting at the hockey game - i had time to think
* [21:25] Argus Collingwood: ditto
* [21:25] Toysoldier Thor: #6 Since Freebies & Demos are forms of Advertising - the reason they seem popular is that they are more cost competitive & effective than the current LL Item Feature Enhancements - So.. make the Legit xstreet feature enhancements more effective and cost competitive so that freebies are not the more attractive option for merchants.
* [21:25] Maged Wise: not sure if it was mentioned before, but I definitely second the opinion that there must be a minimum cost for listings....this way low price merchandise, which is mainly used for marketting promotions etc still cost merchants a price....
* [21:25] Thunderclap Morgridge: I have 46 Items right now when I had contracts I had 100
* [21:25] Colossus Linden: We will get to demo items, but I'd like to stick to freebies for a few minutes.
* [21:25] Thunderclap Morgridge: It goes back to value
* [21:25] Argus Collingwood: I have been thinking about the Freebie issue and have had this thought, If all items sold that are under 10 l were charged a flat fee of 1 l per sale as the commission to Xstreet, that would help with the expense and would thin the freebie herd IMO. I think that is fair to all concerned. Sort of like a Flat Tax pay as you go incentive. I think from a software point of view that would also be easy to implement.
* [21:26] Thunderclap Morgridge: Can anyone here charge fair market value for their goods in dollars?
* [21:26] Colossus Linden: Well, #3 for me treats freebies as advertising. If they will bring you sales then they have value and are worth something each month
* [21:26] Thunderclap Morgridge: i cant
* [21:26] Maged Wise: I agree Colossus
* [21:26] Cynthia Maine: no, I can't
* [21:26] Thunderclap Morgridge: Freebies work as advertising
* [21:26] Colossus Linden: Also, by adding a fee, it reduces the number which should increase the value one gains.
* [21:26] Toysoldier Thor: i like that ARGUS
* [21:26] Toysoldier Thor: even 2L
* [21:26] Argus Collingwood: tyty
* [21:26] Toysoldier Thor: make those that use freebies pay for their advertising or demos
* [21:27] Colossus Linden: Hey Thunderclap, what is the value of a freebie to you?
* [21:27] Toysoldier Thor: minimum commission
* [21:27] Colossus Linden: as a merchant?
* [21:27] Rachel Darling: 2L? Does that seem like a deterrent?
* [21:27] Colossus Linden: or as a shopper?
* [21:27] Thunderclap Morgridge: if you kill or cripple freebies and dollarbies you force people to go to 2l bies or exit to Meta life and slaptme
* [21:27] Rachel Darling: or a fair price for the perceived ad value?
* [21:27] Toysoldier Thor: at 10L - 2L is a 20% commission
* [21:27] Rachel Darling: wouldn't cry if the freebies went to Meta life or slaptime
* [21:27] Toysoldier Thor: 1L is a 150% commission
* [21:28] Jada Humby: colossus, some of us as ex, buy full perm sculpties or templates and sit hours on it to meke it looking good
* [21:28] Maged Wise: human psychology would work good here, since people when they get something free they tend to abuse it, but if it costs even a little, they think twice....consider for ex the unlimited data plans for mobiles, ppl abuse them, as soon as operators set a limit, even high ones on bandwidth, ppl start spending it wisely....
* [21:28] VeiledVamp Veranes: I wouldn't cry either if the freebies went away
* [21:28] Colossus Linden: Argus, we could put a commission on freebies. It's a good idea
* [21:28] Jada Humby: other ppl buy the same sculpties or templates and just put another color on it and give it for free or for 10 lindens
* [21:28] Argus Collingwood: anything priced under 10l
* [21:28] Thunderclap Morgridge: Personally I find with search broken still the only effective way for people to see my wares is xstreet
* [21:29] Thunderclap Morgridge: also the defalt ios 10l
* [21:29] Toysoldier Thor: colossus.... not on Freebies.... a minimum commission of 2L -
* [21:29] Toysoldier Thor: only the freebies would feel it
* [21:29] Argus Collingwood: on anything
* [21:29] Toysoldier Thor: yes
* [21:29] Toysoldier Thor: flat minimum commission value
* [21:29] Argus Collingwood: yes
* [21:29] Pink Linden: welcome michabella
* [21:29] Thunderclap Morgridge: I think a better solution is a special section for freebies and stuff under 10L just like the adult section
* [21:29] Michabella Jonstone: I um...noticed alot of sculpties being given for free...
* [21:30] Colossus Linden: Hey Jada, sounds like we need a better way to display quality or help people build a brand and we'll work on that in the future.
* [21:30] Michabella Jonstone: and a lot of resellers
* [21:30] Michabella Jonstone: on Xstreet
* [21:30] Maged Wise: yes, a minimum fee (commission) which maps to some researched value
* [21:30] Toysoldier Thor: anything sold with a standard commission rate higher than 2L would not feel it
* [21:30] Jada Humby: thats my point Colossus
* [21:30] Thunderclap Morgridge: this way they are seperate from the search like the adult is
* [21:30] Toysoldier Thor: or what even minium
* [21:30] Jada Humby: ppl dont see qwuality work, because they see us first the low prims items
* [21:30] Colossus Linden: Agreed Maged. I can tell you that there is a very large drop off from freebie purchases to dollarbie purchases
* [21:31] Thunderclap Morgridge: you can change the defauilt view to hig priced items
* [21:31] Thunderclap Morgridge: or alpohabetical
* [21:31] Jada Humby: I agree baby
* [21:31] Thunderclap Morgridge: there are many ways to adjust the search on xstreet
* [21:31] Rachel Darling: Colossus, I still have some questions about that. Did the old "popular items" feed show us that low-priced items sell very very well...even at the 10L or 25L price points?
* [21:31] Colossus Linden: Thanks Toysoldier. Minimum commission is on the list.
* [21:31] Toysoldier Thor: the benefit of the minimum flat commission fee of $xL is that it should be easy to deploy as well...
* [21:32] Rachel Darling: *Didn't, I mean
* [21:32] Argus Collingwood: yes
* [21:32] Toysoldier Thor: Lindens... remember that what ever option you decide upon you need to take into account LL's current resource restriction. I understand you are highly restricted on development resources. As such, any of the options that requires xstreet website or backend development will take a long time to deploy and/or further delay critical and long awaited functional improvements to XSTREET.
* [21:32] Thunderclap Morgridge: I find that sales drop off at 25L and above for what I sell until it is scrpited
* [21:32] Thunderclap Morgridge: like having vendors
* [21:32] Thunderclap Morgridge: which would be nice
* [21:32] Toysoldier Thor: soo options that are elaborate in technology to deploy - i would avoid
* [21:33] Thunderclap Morgridge: because Meta-life has them and they are nice
* [21:33] Rachel Darling: interesting info, Thunderclap. I may experiment with that
* [21:33] Thunderclap Morgridge: I actually am on all 3
* [21:33] Thunderclap Morgridge: and xstreet still has higher sales for now
* [21:33] Rachel Darling: the "under 25L" thing I mean
* [21:33] Thunderclap Morgridge: yes
* [21:33] Colossus Linden: Rachel, the old popularity ranking was unfairly skewed. It didn't properly represent popularity. I can't go into the algorithm, but we did our best to make it more accurately represent popularity
* [21:33] Thunderclap Morgridge: I sell a t-bone steak at 25L
* [21:34] Thunderclap Morgridge: its popular
* [21:34] Pink Linden: likes steak
* [21:34] Rachel Darling: nods in recognition of the work LL did on that
* [21:34] Thunderclap Morgridge: but she didnt like my coffee
* [21:34] Thunderclap Morgridge: she killed it
* [21:34] Rachel Darling: though it used to be that they did take into account the price, I'd understood
* [21:34] Colossus Linden: Toysoldier, yup, resource requirements will factor into all decisions we make.
* [21:34] Pink Linden: also it's not all or nothing
* [21:35] Pink Linden: we can work in phases
* [21:35] Pink Linden: a little now and more later etc
* [21:35] Thunderclap Morgridge: that actually is best
* [21:35] Argus Collingwood: easiest is best for all concerned
* [21:35] Thunderclap Morgridge: a new radio button or drop down
* [21:35] Thunderclap Morgridge: that would be easiest
* [21:36] Rachel Darling: how hard would it be to scale the commission structure based on the item price, ala Ebay? So higher priced items pay a lower commission rate, with a minimum commission charged for each thing, no matter whether it sells for 0L or 1000L?
* [21:36] Colossus Linden: So, there is a lot of favor for a minimum commission.
* [21:36] Argus Collingwood: I am lol
* [21:36] Cynthia Maine: yes
* [21:36] Colossus Linden: And some favor for separating freebies & charging a freebie listing fee (options #3 & #4)
* [21:36] Toysoldier Thor: YES
* [21:37] Colossus Linden: and I have not heard any comments on #1,#2, or #5
* [21:37] Thunderclap Morgridge: actually that is an excellent Idea
* [21:37] Argus Collingwood: they can still be separated
* [21:37] Maged Wise: yes, advertising should not free
* [21:37] Toysoldier Thor: very simple soloution to deploy and i think it would be very effective
* [21:37] Colossus Linden: which leads me to believe that they are not favored
* [21:37] Maged Wise: should not be free, I meant
* [21:37] VeiledVamp Veranes: I'm just wondering about the commission part - seems to me it's not likely to weed out the clutter of the freebies - the same freebies will continue to be there, wehther there are sales or not
* [21:37] Argus Collingwood: complicated does not fly this late at night lol
* [21:37] Thunderclap Morgridge: 5 is very bad idea
* [21:37] Colossus Linden: better than leaving out the "not" maged :)
* [21:38] Toysoldier Thor: freebies would reduce dramatically if there was a minimum fee except for those that truly have a perceived value for the freebie being there
* [21:38] VeiledVamp Veranes: and if merchants have to pay a commission, then what's to say they won't just turn around and charge 5 or 9L?
* [21:38] Maged Wise: hehe true :)
* [21:38] Argus Collingwood: Vamp most sales are freebies I reckon
* [21:38] Thunderclap Morgridge: same with 1 and 2
* [21:38] Argus Collingwood: that is ok to charge more
* [21:38] Thunderclap Morgridge: because 1 and 2 will lead to 5
* [21:38] Colossus Linden: Good Point Veiled, which may mean we need to enact a couple of solutions together.
* [21:38] VeiledVamp Veranes: so the merchant pays the commission, LL gets the commission, xstreet is still full of freebies
* [21:38] Thunderclap Morgridge: freebies have value
* [21:38] Toysoldier Thor: lol if its caosting you on each sale.... to sell it - the freebies will go away
* [21:39] Colossus Linden: Thunderclap, I thought you'd be totally in favor of #5 :p
* [21:39] Thunderclap Morgridge: the problem is that peoplemake alot of crap
* [21:39] VeiledVamp Veranes: but what about all the freebies that aren't being sold? they're still sitting there
* [21:39] VeiledVamp Veranes: they're still coming up in search
* [21:39] Argus Collingwood: I think a freebie seller will have to weigh their options
* [21:39] Argus Collingwood: risk vs reward
* [21:39] Rachel Darling: in their own category though, Vamp
* [21:39] Thunderclap Morgridge: how about a sell timer
* [21:39] Maged Wise: this means the merchant is now "paying" for having his freebies, it least they can correlate success to some expense they pay
* [21:40] Thunderclap Morgridge: say 60 days to make at least one sale on it
* [21:40] Toysoldier Thor: but the merchants that put them up - they are risking that when they do sell - the merchant has to pay a fee to sell it since it makes him no revenue and he will be charged a minimum commission
* [21:40] VeiledVamp Veranes: sure, I can see the point if you're making sales and willing to absorb the cost
* [21:40] Thunderclap Morgridge: this way they know if it is popular or not
* [21:40] Colossus Linden: Thunderclap, I agree that "some" freebies have value, which is why I believe that at some type of price metric, it weeds out those without value.
* [21:41] Thunderclap Morgridge: i have an item called chiken on a stick it was a gift and was given out in world as a freebie
* [21:41] Maged Wise: those merchants who are now having a free ride, would need to stop and think if this strategy is doing them any good at least and not just do it bec. it is free
* [21:41] Argus Collingwood: yes
* [21:41] Thunderclap Morgridge: but when the people left they gave me the right to distribute it but I couldnt sell it so it is listed as free and it is popular
* [21:41] Toysoldier Thor: and ll makes money on freebies and cheapies
* [21:42] Thunderclap Morgridge: \Mine cant be the only one
* [21:42] VeiledVamp Veranes: I wonder how happy those merchants are going to be when they are faced with commissions on freebies, only to have buyers turn around and give them crappy ratings
* [21:42] Colossus Linden: Mind you all as well that we are discussing Xstreet, so we are not talking about implementing these controls in Second Life.
* [21:42] Thunderclap Morgridge: I dont disparage ll making money on freebies
* [21:42] Argus Collingwood: atm the freebies are eating bandwidth and making no* value to Xstreet
* [21:42] VeiledVamp Veranes: I agree Argus
* [21:42] Thunderclap Morgridge: only the crappy ones Angus
* [21:42] Thunderclap Morgridge: mine arent they sel;l
* [21:42] Maged Wise: corect Veiled, so this force can get them to re-strategize
* [21:42] Argus Collingwood: they also get the moszt traffic I bet
* [21:43] Thunderclap Morgridge: no actually they dont
* [21:43] Toysoldier Thor: crappy ratings are another issue - maybe freebies should have ratings - or any item under xL cannot be rated?
* [21:43] Toysoldier Thor: *should not
* [21:43] Toysoldier Thor: sorry
* [21:43] Thunderclap Morgridge: the items I had contrected followed by the steak and chicken do
* [21:43] Argus Collingwood: Thunder I bet the data is different
* [21:43] Colossus Linden: So, I would like to discuss demo items as well
* [21:43] VeiledVamp Veranes: mmhmm not sure I see the point of rating freebies, agree with you Toy
* [21:43] Thunderclap Morgridge: I would love to see
* [21:43] Thunderclap Morgridge: it
* [21:43] Pink Linden: toy, that's an interesting point
* [21:44] Rachel Darling: I think if you're going to charge people for freebies, you should allow them to be rated. It's my hope that someday we'll be rated overall as merchants, not just our products
* [21:44] Thunderclap Morgridge: actually demos really shouldnt be on xstreet
* [21:44] Rachel Darling: so if I pay to give away freebies as a promotion, which I'm willing to do, it'll be because there's a value in nit
* [21:44] VeiledVamp Veranes: lol
* [21:44] Rachel Darling: if that's ratings ok, if it's exposure ok...but I make that value decision
* [21:44] Colossus Linden: I define a demo item as a limited-functionality version of an item which is sold at a discount with the intention of allowing the user to test the item and with the hope that a resident who tests the item and likes it will then return to purchase the fully functional version at the full price
* [21:45] VeiledVamp Veranes: sounds right for a demo
* [21:45] Thunderclap Morgridge: because thats allowing xstreet to drive business to their store so unless they dont have one in world they need to leave them on the store
* [21:45] Thunderclap Morgridge: like demo skins?
* [21:45] Toysoldier Thor: since freebies would be a paid version of advertising - one should not be rated for an advertisement
* [21:45] Maged Wise: at least for promo items, I would expect the delta in price (when adjusted to real price) to be a factor in the popularity
* [21:45] Colossus Linden: Why do you say demos shouldn't be on Xstreet Thunderclap? I'm curious
* [21:45] Thunderclap Morgridge: agreed with thor
* [21:45] Rachel Darling: if I'm paying to give you a freebie then I'm good with you rating my item, and it deserves to be rated.
* [21:46] Thunderclap Morgridge: Ok everyone knows who Callie Cline is right?
* [21:46] Argus Collingwood: yes
* [21:46] Rachel Darling: nods
* [21:46] Colossus Linden: interesting point Toysoldier. I don't know if we'll play around with ratings, but interesting point.
* [21:47] Thunderclap Morgridge: so say she discoveres that she having a rl issue that crimps her funds and needs to have a cheap means to drive business to her store which is four islands
* [21:47] Thunderclap Morgridge: the cheapest is way is a demo xtsreet
* [21:47] Argus Collingwood: she never does that
* [21:47] Colossus Linden: Thunderclap, some freebies can be useful for attracting new customers. That's part of why I'm not in favor of #5 right now. But, too many freebies diminishes the shopping experience. And if a shopper is buying less because they can't find what they want, then all of our merchants are making less.
* [21:47] Thunderclap Morgridge: then if they like the demo they go to her store and buy it there
* [21:47] Toysoldier Thor: freebies and cheapies should also not be included in any "popularity" factors - again - if its a form of advertising... then it should not be treated like a product
* [21:47] Argus Collingwood: she would not do that
* [21:48] Thunderclap Morgridge: i know that
* [21:48] Thunderclap Morgridge: But I needed a visible example to answer the question
* [21:48] Thunderclap Morgridge: there are people who do do that
* [21:48] Thunderclap Morgridge: that that is wrong
* [21:48] Thunderclap Morgridge: freebies as ads is a good thing
* [21:49] Rachel Darling: but normally in RL people pay for advertising
* [21:49] Thunderclap Morgridge: there should be a flag to mark it as such and have a limiter
* [21:49] Rachel Darling: they pay to advertise their freebies, yes?
* [21:49] Thunderclap Morgridge: and pay
* [21:49] Thunderclap Morgridge: coke does
* [21:49] Thunderclap Morgridge: nike does
* [21:49] Thunderclap Morgridge: autodesk does
* [21:49] Argus Collingwood: I have no* problem with freebies as ads that are paying XStreet
* [21:49] Thunderclap Morgridge: microsoft just spent thousands on free copies of 7 to pomote it
* [21:49] Thunderclap Morgridge: i have one
* [21:50] Thunderclap Morgridge: i know
* [21:50] Jada Humby: hehe
* [21:50] Thunderclap Morgridge: it is a good thing yes
* [21:50] Argus Collingwood: and all the dead AOL dosk lol
* [21:50] Colossus Linden: So, my understanding is that the main purpose for freebies is advertising. They get your brand out there. They bring someone into your store or to view your other items where they may purchase some that are not free or become a lifelong customer.
* [21:50] Rachel Darling: 's husband works at MS...more like hundreds of thousands
* [21:50] Thunderclap Morgridge: you want to elimitae the crappy freebies
* [21:50] Thunderclap Morgridge: true true
* [21:50] Maged Wise: yes and Microsoft is pretty well NOT a charity
* [21:50] Colossus Linden: So, treating freebies like advertisements seems to make sense, but I'd be happy to discuss some other purposes for freebies as well if there are important ones
* [21:50] VeiledVamp Veranes: I wonder who is going to define crappy freebies
* [21:50] Thunderclap Morgridge: have the ad flag, the optional limiter and the new location
* [21:50] Colossus Linden: I brought up demo items because some demos are free
* [21:51] Thunderclap Morgridge: undercutting overpriced items
* [21:51] Rachel Darling: Vamp, if they get charged for them...then the creator of the freebie is going to define if it's crap or not
* [21:51] Thunderclap Morgridge: freebies are a great way to do that
* [21:51] Thunderclap Morgridge: its the walmart effect
* [21:51] Toysoldier Thor: and if the minimum commissions weeds out the crap freebies and leaves the advertising freebies with value... FINALLY we have a cost effective xstreet advertising enhancement ! one that is based on usage not weekly fees
* [21:52] Thunderclap Morgridge: yea
* [21:52] Maged Wise: but even walmart pays...store place, salaries of ppl to sell...etc
* [21:52] VeiledVamp Veranes: sounds optimistic to me
* [21:52] Colossus Linden: Thunderclap, I want a shopper to be able to quickly find the type of item they want at the quality they want and at the price that makes sense to them. I want to enable our merchants to find these customers and put their products in front of them. To those ends, we seek to improve the shopping experience
* [21:52] Argus Collingwood: people should pay to play for their ventures into Xstrret marketing
* [21:52] VeiledVamp Veranes: the marketplace will still be full of freebies which are not being sold
* [21:52] Toysoldier Thor: and a featue enhancement that is cost effective to the smaller merchants that cannot afford the costly current feature enhancements
* [21:52] Thunderclap Morgridge: really sometimes there are like indentured servants or serfs
* [21:52] Colossus Linden: VeiledVamp, we're trying to let the market and the merchant decide if there is value in what they offer.
* [21:53] Thunderclap Morgridge: have torley do a video or shopping at xstreet
* [21:53] Thunderclap Morgridge: that should be quick and eazy hell I'll make a watermelon for him
* [21:53] Rachel Darling: Vamps point is valid if you go with a min commission on sale on freebies/dollarbies/cheapies. If you go with the listing fee though, especially on a weekly or monthly basis
* [21:53] Maged Wise: freebies that are not being sold are ok, as long as they don't be the only thing appearing in your search
* [21:53] Rachel Darling: the non-sellers will disappear as well
* [21:53] Colossus Linden: agreed Argus
* [21:54] Colossus Linden: VeiledVamp, do you have some other ideas?
* [21:54] Thunderclap Morgridge: I believe that cheap should be defined as 2L to 9L
* [21:54] VeiledVamp Veranes: no, I think I'll back out at this point
* [21:54] VeiledVamp Veranes: thanks anyway
* [21:54] Thunderclap Morgridge: 25L isnt cheap
* [21:54] Maged Wise: the exact value need to be researched
* [21:54] Maged Wise: basic on statistics..etc
* [21:54] Thunderclap Morgridge: 200L for a burger or a bottle of whiskey is overpriced
* [21:55] Colossus Linden: Just checking. VeiledVamp. Thanks for the input.
* [21:55] Argus Collingwood: Vamp, if freebies get the most sales, then the crator will soon have to decided whether they want to sell at a loss
* [21:55] Colossus Linden: So, we're down to 5 minutes left
* [21:55] Argus Collingwood: creator*
* [21:55] Toysoldier Thor: i also think that if it is an advertising tool - to avoid abuse - maybe limit a merchant to X items under $xL (ie. these advertising freebies)
* [21:55] Thunderclap Morgridge: can you guys transfer the old xstreet kiosks to us?
* [21:55] Maged Wise: do we have change in price factored in popularity index?
* [21:56] Thunderclap Morgridge: I happen to like mine
* [21:56] Colossus Linden: you mean the ATMs Thunderclap?
* [21:56] Thunderclap Morgridge: but if I move I will lose it
* [21:56] Thunderclap Morgridge: yes
* [21:56] Colossus Linden: I will look into it
* [21:56] Colossus Linden: so, getting back to the topic
* [21:56] Colossus Linden: to summarize
* [21:56] Thunderclap Morgridge: do you have a use for them anymore?
* [21:57] Colossus Linden: Everyone agrees that there are a lot of freebies, but not everyone here agrees that we should do something about it.
* [21:57] Colossus Linden: That differs from the two earlier sessions where everyone definitely wanted some action taken
* [21:57] Toysoldier Thor: do something about it - my vote
* [21:57] Jada Humby: my vote too
* [21:57] Argus Collingwood: votes Do
* [21:57] Colossus Linden: There is a lot of support for a minimum commission
* [21:57] Cynthia Maine: yes, min fee is mine
* [21:58] Toysoldier Thor: they skew everything and bring down the value of many items in the market
* [21:58] Colossus Linden: In addition there is support for treating freebies as advertising and charging a listing fee
* [21:58] Thunderclap Morgridge: 5l on free is goiod
* [21:58] Toysoldier Thor: minimum flat commission
* [21:58] Thunderclap Morgridge: yes
* [21:58] Colossus Linden: and some support for separating them out somehow
* [21:58] Maged Wise: I guess freebie sellers would be the most negatively affected and hence the most apprehensive about change :)
* [21:58] Thunderclap Morgridge: well if you make no money and then yes
* [21:58] Toysoldier Thor: if the listing fee was low and reasonable - sure... AND the minimum sales commission
* [21:59] Colossus Linden: Overall, we all agree that freebies and cheap items have some value
* [21:59] Jada Humby: yes
* [21:59] Pink Linden: Cynthia, Eris....any input?
* [21:59] Colossus Linden: And some good concerns with any of these solutions have been raised
* [21:59] Thunderclap Morgridge: I do have a private question before you leave
* [21:59] Cynthia Maine: I agree with the minimum commission
* [21:59] Thunderclap Morgridge: ok?
* [21:59] Maged Wise: they have a value, but now they need a "cost"
* [21:59] Argus Collingwood: yes
* [21:59] Colossus Linden: Sure Thunderclap
* [21:59] Thunderclap Morgridge: 5l
* [22:00] Colossus Linden: Have I accurately captured the feedback from today?
* [22:00] Cynthia Maine: Freebies are best provided ingame
* [22:00] Thunderclap Morgridge: yes I think so
* [22:00] Argus Collingwood: yes Cyn
* [22:00] Maged Wise: any conclusions about promos?
* [22:00] Colossus Linden: There were a couple of other good ideas that came up which I will read back through the transcript for
* [22:00] Colossus Linden: promos Maged?
* [22:00] Toysoldier Thor: I think LL should clearly define a new term called an "ADVERTISING ITEM" with the limits of what it would be (i.e. items under 10L for example)
* [22:00] Toysoldier Thor: thennn
* [22:00] Maged Wise: promotional items
* [22:00] Thunderclap Morgridge: Christmas promotion
* [22:00] Toysoldier Thor: Advertising items should be treated differently
* [22:00] Thunderclap Morgridge: remember christmas promotion
* [22:01] Maged Wise: low prices items that suddently get adjusted back after scoring high on popularity index
* [22:01] Thunderclap Morgridge: black friday
* [22:01] Argus Collingwood: atm Promo is just a buzz term and not defined
* [22:01] Pink Linden: we've already started on it Thunderclap. 
* [22:01] Colossus Linden: Maged, I'll give that some thought, but I think that may be a separate issue which I'll need to better understand
* [22:01] Jada Humby: good point maged :)
* [22:01] Thunderclap Morgridge: goodie get blue to make another cool vendor
* [22:01] VeiledVamp Veranes: Black Friday is an American thing is it not?
* [22:01] Rachel Darling: Temporary "sale priced" items.
* [22:01] Thunderclap Morgridge: yes
* [22:01] Cynthia Maine: yes, Vamp
* [22:01] Rachel Darling: at a very low amount
* [22:01] Pink Linden: yes but what's not just american is cyber monday
* [22:01] Colossus Linden: Alright folks, it's 10pm and we're out of time
* [22:02] Toysoldier Thor: Ad Item: not rated, not sales ranked, possibly has a listing fee (say $5L), and a merchant can only place 5 AD items
* [22:02] Colossus Linden: I appreciate you all joining us
* [22:02] Thunderclap Morgridge: its the day after american thanksgiving first day of holiday sales
* [22:02] Thunderclap Morgridge: very busy day
* [22:02] VeiledVamp Veranes: lol cyber monday - I like that
* [22:02] Jada Humby: was nice :) thx Colossus and Pink :)
* [22:02] Pink Linden: thank you to all makig the time to meet with us
* [22:02] Colossus Linden: Thanks for the feedback and great ideas
* [22:02] Maged Wise: good brainstorming session, thanks Pink and Colossus, you've been good moderators
* [22:02] Thunderclap Morgridge: cyber monday is awesome too
* [22:02] Cynthia Maine: Thank you for holding the session!