User Experience Interest Group/Transcripts/2010-03-11

== Topic ==
User Experience Interest Group Discussion for March 11, 2010.
Topic: Open Topic (Context Menus).
== Summary ==
We will be having a special visitor next week (March 18): Lisa Fiedor from North Carolina State University will be here to discuss SL accessibility for users with disabilities, and the progress that's being made on that front.
This week, Boroondas talked about her ideas for improving the context menus for in-world interaction (i.e. the pie menu in SL 1.XX, and the traditional rectangular menu in SL 2.0):
* When the user right-clicks in the 3D view, they wolud be presented with a pie menu containing 7 actions for quick access. The user can customize the list of actions to fit their preferences.
* The 8th action in the pie menu would bring up the traditional rectangular menu, giving access to all possible actions via a hierarchical menu layout.
* This would give the benefits of the pie menu (quick, almost gestural access to actions the user uses frequently) with the benefits of the traditional context menu (more conventional and familiar to users; more effective at presenting a hierarchical layout of many items).
* We also discussed some variations on the idea, such as a hierarchical pie menu that "fans out" into more actions.
We also discussed various other topics, such as UI customizability, infinite clothing layers for avatars, the state of open source viewer development, and Geneko's school project to redesign the build tools UI.
Geneko might lead a discussion reviewing his project in two or three weeks.
== Links ==
* Screenshot of a radial menu from NeverWinter Nights
* Geneko's old pie menu concept sketches
* Geneko's fan-out pie menu concept sketch
* Boroondas' proposal for "persistent inventory"
* Wikipedia article about the "Zero One Infinity" concept in software design (related to out discussion of clothing layers)
== Transcript ==
[15:06]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hi Jacek :-)
[15:06]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hi Morg!
[15:06]	Jacek Antonelli: 	How are things?
[15:06]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hi Bor, Gen :-)
[15:06]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Better than before.
[15:06]	Boroondas Gupte: 	heya
[15:07]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hi Gen and Boroondas :)
[15:07]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Still alive. That's better than the alternative
[15:07]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Amazing, we got away on time today
[15:07]	Armin Weatherwax: 	hi
[15:07]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Merov himself said there wasn't much things on the agenda.
[15:07]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hi Armin
[15:08]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hi Armin
[15:08]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I hope they will end on time next week, we have a special visitor :D
[15:09]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Did you all hear, Which is leaving LL, next week wll be his last. And that right after Pathfinder leaving last week :-(
[15:09]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Aww
[15:09]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hiya Aimee :-)
[15:09]	Aimee Trescothick: 	hullo
[15:09]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Awww
[15:09]	Aimee Trescothick: 	really :( at both of those
[15:09]	Boroondas Gupte: 	if that trend continues, they're gonna run out of devs
[15:09]	Aimee Trescothick: 	massive loss for the lab
[15:09]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Special visitor?
[15:09]	Armin Weatherwax: 	Hi Aimee
[15:09]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Or at least good devs...
[15:10]	Aimee Trescothick: 	yeah, they're hiring really crap ones these days
[15:10]	Armin Weatherwax: 	why?
[15:10]	Geneko Nemeth giggles evily. 	Geneko Nemeth giggles evily.
[15:10]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah, like that Aimee Linden. Totally incompetent... erm, um.
[15:10]	Jacek Antonelli: 	j/k }:)
[15:10]	Geneko Nemeth LHAOs. 	Geneko Nemeth LHAOs.
[15:10]	Aimee Trescothick: 	yeah, and she's not even original with her avatar
[15:10]	Armin Weatherwax: 	Dun dun DUUUUUN! O_o
[15:11]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah. Fairy wings? Please. Soooo 2009.
[15:11]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Eh, I liek that Aimee guy. She flies around glittering and doesn't afraid of everything.
[15:11]	Geneko Nemeth: 	(Nice avatar.)
[15:11]	Aimee Trescothick: 	:D
[15:11]	Aimee Trescothick: 	thank you :)
[15:11]	Aimee Trescothick: 	damn
[15:11]	Aimee Trescothick: 	blew it
[15:11]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehe
[15:12]	Boroondas Gupte: 	well, now you have ... Geneko didn't say which Aimee
[15:12]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Actually Aimee Linden is one of the bestest Lindens ever ❤
[15:12]	Morgaine Dinova: 	It's not a matter of hiring competent/incompetent techies, they're always going to be competent technically. It's more a matter of hiring ones without the old vision and without any interest in residents except as customers. And without a liking for Open Source.
[15:12]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Boronndas: ^_^
[15:12]	Aimee Trescothick: 	you'd be hard pressed to find a dev in the lab that's not pro-open source
[15:12]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Morgaine: http://wiki.secondlife.com/w/index.php?title=Tao_of_Linden&diff=next&oldid=173523
[15:13]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Gen: are there updates there that look worrying?
[15:13]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Yes. It was updated two years ago.
[15:14]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I'll analyse it later, it's been years since I read it. Off-topic here.
[15:14]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Somewhat...
[15:14]	Boroondas Gupte: 	so ... anyway, user experiance ...
[15:14]	Morgaine Dinova: 	:-)
[15:14]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Yeah, user experience.
[15:14]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek: you mentioned "special visitor" next week
[15:14]	Armin Weatherwax: 	well, having a preamble saying something like "we support opensource development and are proud that so many pple are working on that code" in front of the tpvp would give a completely different light
[15:14]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I should "fail publicly" here, as the old Tal preaches.
[15:15]	Geneko Nemeth: 	*Tao\
[15:15]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Grr, chat lag.
[15:15]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Anyway, my course project for UI design is redesigning the SL build interface by myself, as you may have known. It turns out to be too big a topic for me to handle.
[15:15]	Armin Weatherwax: 	yepp, chat lag
[15:16]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, I wanted to mention before we get into a discussion, that next week we're having a special visitor to UXIG. Lisa Fiedor from North Carolina State University will be here to discuss accessibility for users with disabilities, and the progress that's being made on that front.
[15:16]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Excellent!
[15:16]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Sigh, no having people looking at my designs next week then... still, it's a nice departure.
[15:16]	Armin Weatherwax: 	cool
[15:16]	Jacek Antonelli: 	She is (or her job title is) "Web Accessibility, Usability, & Design Specialist" \o/
[15:16]	Geneko Nemeth: 	(From random chit-chat)
[15:16]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek: in the context of SL and its viewers, or generally?
[15:17]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Prolly generally.
[15:17]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I think the focus of the discussion is going to be on accessing SL through a viewer.
[15:17]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Good
[15:18]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Hmm. That's not an easy task either, this will be interesting.
[15:18]	Jacek Antonelli: 	From her email, she is involved in "distance education", i.e. taking classes over the internet.
[15:18]	Jacek Antonelli: 	It should be an interesting discussion
[15:18]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I view accessibility as relevant to everyone. We are all likely to benefit from work in that area one day, no exceptions.
[15:18]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Ahoy, McCabe! Nice to see you around ;)
[15:19]	McCabe Maxsted waves 	McCabe Maxsted waves
[15:19]	Morgaine Dinova: 	McCabe! Hiya stranger!
[15:19]	McCabe Maxsted: 	ahoy!
[15:19]	Boroondas Gupte: 	As you probably noticed, I didn't get to write my mail to sl-ux about the context menu, yet. If we have time, I'd like to talk about it here.
[15:19]	Armin Weatherwax: 	Hi McCabe :)
[15:19]	Jacek Antonelli: 	In my experience, efforts to improve accessibility for users with disabilities, tend to benefit everyone quite a bit
[15:20]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Geneko: Did you want to talk about your designs this week? Or wait until two weeks from now?
[15:20]	Geneko Nemeth: 	It's *due* two weeks from now, and I can't talk about it next week.
[15:20]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Back in Benjamin + Malbers Linden days with their OH, did they every focus on accessibility?
[15:20]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Unfortunately I can't talk about it this week either. I was playing Battle for Wesnoth and forgot to do it.
[15:20]	Morgaine Dinova: 	ever* focus
[15:21]	McCabe Maxsted thinks. Only when we brought it up, so far as I can recall 	McCabe Maxsted thinks. Only when we brought it up, so far as I can recall
[15:21]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hehe Gen
[15:21]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Geneko: Hrm. I could ask Lisa if we can have her come two weeks from now, so you would have a chance to talk next week?
[15:22]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Hmm... actually, I don't really care since I'm like super lazy and stuff, so you probably won't get anything two weeks from now either, although if it can be done that would be great too.
[15:22]	Geneko Nemeth: 	s/two weeks from now/ a week from now/
[15:23]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay. Let's have Boroondas talk this week, then Lisa next week, and perhaps Geneko can give us a review of his design in two weeks?
[15:23]	Lilly Zenovka waves 	Lilly Zenovka waves
[15:23]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hi Lilly :)
[15:23]	Lilly Zenovka: 	corrupt textures. Back in a minute
[15:23]	Armin Weatherwax: 	Hi Lilly :)
[15:23]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Aww, but I already have stuff prepared..
[15:23]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I think get Lisa for the date that best suits her. When Gen has something to show, we can adapt.
[15:24]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Geneko: Which is it? If you have something prepared, we can talk about it. But you said you weren't ready
[15:24]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Yeah. I don't have it ready.
[15:25]	Geneko Nemeth: 	...
[15:25]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay. Boroondas, tell us about your context menus. :)
[15:25]	Geneko Nemeth: 	bleh. It's already 25 minutes into the meeting. Let's talk about context menus.
[15:25]	Boroondas Gupte: 	ok ...
[15:25]	Boroondas Gupte: 	It's just some thoughts, yet, but I'd like to share them for discussion
[15:25]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Better define context menu first.
[15:25]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Sounds good
[15:26]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hi Lilly :-)
[15:26]	Lilly Zenovka: 	hi morgain
[15:26]	Boroondas Gupte: 	what you see, when you rightclick stuff inworld, Morgaine
[15:27]	Boroondas Gupte: 	(not concerned with contextual menus on non-inworld stuff for now)
[15:27]	Boroondas Gupte: 	as you know, these were pie menus in 1.x
[15:27]	Geneko Nemeth digs out his old pie menu mockup 	Geneko Nemeth digs out his old pie menu mockup
[15:27]	Boroondas Gupte: 	in 2.0 beta, we have the rectangular context menus known from other applications
[15:28]	Boroondas Gupte: 	both have pros and contras:
[15:28]	Boroondas Gupte: 	the pie allowed for quick drag&release selection (mouse gesture like)
[15:28]	McCabe Maxsted: 	ack, back :)
[15:28]	McCabe Maxsted: 	can someone catch me up?
[15:29]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Sure McCabe
[15:29]	McCabe Maxsted accepted your inventory offer. 	McCabe Maxsted accepted your inventory offer.
[15:29]	Boroondas Gupte: 	also it was something that made the SL UI unique, without posing a big barrier to newcomers (you can't mistake the pie menu for much else than a context menu, even if it looks quite different than otherwhere)
[15:29]	McCabe Maxsted: 	thanks :)
[15:30]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Well I've never been too happy with the core idea that the context menu should pop up at the point where the clicked-on item exists. It's inflexible. If I were doing it (but I'm not), I'd keep target selection and action selection separate, so the context menu could be brought up by many means and wherever you like, not just the mouse.
[15:31]	Boroondas Gupte: 	however 3-level pie menus are a PITA, so it's understandable that LL went with rectuangular ones to display more options
[15:31]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I know it's not "the SL way", but I think the SL way is crappy UI design.
[15:31]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I love pie menus.
[15:31]	Boroondas Gupte: 	I was thinking, maybe we can get the benefits of both
[15:31]	Aimee Trescothick: 	do you have a good example of that somewhere else Morgaine?
[15:31]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Aimee: all MMO clients that have ever been created.
[15:32]	Lilly Zenovka: 	I have no prob with 3 levels pie menus..
[15:32]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Well, not all, haha
[15:32]	Morgaine Dinova: 	All the major ones
[15:32]	Armin Weatherwax: 	pick one ...
[15:32]	Boroondas Gupte: 	the idea is to have the pie menu on right-click with the (up to) seven most used options (possibly user-configurable).
[15:32]	Geneko Nemeth: 	....
[15:33]	Boroondas Gupte: 	the 8th section would be "All options" and would open the rectangular, hierarchical context menu
[15:33]	Boroondas Gupte: 	for power-users, double-right-click could directly open the rectangular one
[15:33]	Geneko Nemeth: 	As long as it doesn't rearrange itself while being used...
[15:33]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Bor: I think the good thing about pies is that you mentally remember in which direction to head so aiming is very easy. That's great for accessibility .... AS LONG AS IT STAYS THE SAME.
[15:34]	Jacek Antonelli politely listens to Boroondas. :P 	Jacek Antonelli politely listens to Boroondas. :P
[15:34]	Geneko Nemeth: 	(i.e. the order are decided by developer through data collection)
[15:35]	Boroondas Gupte: 	Morgaine, in my scenario the user would configure the pie menu. So if they don't want to re-learn the directions, they could just leave it on the default order.
[15:35]	McCabe Maxsted: 	what would be in the "all options" menu?
[15:35]	Boroondas Gupte: 	the "all options" would open the rectangular context menu as known from 2.0
[15:36]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Boroondas: I think Morgaine took your "most used options" to mean "options rearrange themselves based on most used".
[15:36]	Boroondas Gupte: 	because that's more suited to present a big number of options, maybe hierarchically sorted
[15:37]	Boroondas Gupte: 	ah, no, "most used" as in, "don't clutter it with stuff that nobody uses more than once annually"
[15:37]	Boroondas Gupte: 	we have only 7 slots to fill
[15:37]	Boroondas Gupte: 	no more multi-level pies. everything that doesn't fit in the 7 slots would go to the "all option" rectangular menu
[15:37]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Huzzah!
[15:38]	Jacek Antonelli: 	This is a really interesting idea
[15:38]	Lilly Zenovka: 	Do you remember "Neverwinter night" ?
[15:38]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Never played that game.
[15:38]	Boroondas Gupte: 	me, neither
[15:38]	Lilly Zenovka: 	the pie menu was extending around the first one,
[15:39]	Geneko Nemeth: 	(Wish I could get my paws on them, I heard it was great.)
[15:39]	Jacek Antonelli: 	One thought: We could make it 8 customizable slots, if the center was a button to open the rectangular menu. That would also fit into the idea of double right-clicking to go directly to the rectangular menu
[15:39]	Geneko Nemeth: 	That's good too, since there's no need to close it, go back, or anything...
[15:40]	Lilly Zenovka: 	if you moved your mouse on an item, it automagically extended around
[15:40]	Lilly Zenovka: 	3-level menus weren't a pain
[15:40]	Boroondas Gupte: 	hmm ... optically, I'd like the center to stay "empty" to allow see-through to the object in question (another pro for the pie menu)
[15:40]	Lilly Zenovka: 	and you'd remember how long to extend when right clicking to get to the wanted entry
[15:40]	McCabe Maxsted: 	http://hci.deri.ie/~ksamp/game.jpg
[15:40]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I prefer to attach a label to the pie menu like http://imprudenceviewer.org/forums/download/file.php?id=62
[15:41]	Lilly Zenovka: 	exactly mc
[15:41]	Geneko Nemeth: 	And the label could be used as a tear-off handle or navigation of multi-level pie (of course, if you do away with multi-level pie there will be no navigation).
[15:42]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yes. In NWN most of the radial menu entries (marked with arrows, as you see in that screenshot) would lead to new menu levels
[15:42]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Unlike the SL menu, which is more linear. Usually 7 options plus "More", to bring up the next 7 options.
[15:42]	Geneko Nemeth: 	.... unless everything is named "Object"...
[15:42]	Lilly Zenovka: 	I don't like the idea of mixing pie + rectangular menus. They're 2 different abstactions...
[15:43]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Just having the center clear isn't good enough. Sometimes you need to select an object with pixel accuracy. What you select (the GL pick) should be described in text in a target field somewhere in the UI.
[15:43]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Maybe not rectangular, but a list of something.
[15:43]	Jacek Antonelli: 	That sounds like a separate thing, Morg. You could have that regardless of how the menus look or act
[15:44]	Morgaine Dinova: 	True
[15:44]	Boroondas Gupte: 	yeah, it could be a fan-out from pie instead of rectangular
[15:44]	Boroondas Gupte: 	hmm ... pixel accuracy when selecting?
[15:45]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I do like the idea of giving quick access to a customizable set of actions, and then having one more click to bring up the full set of menus
[15:46]	McCabe Maxsted nods. I think the pie's a lot more useful if everything is accecible through the initial menu somehow. Never quite liked clicking More >	McCabe Maxsted nods. I think the pie's a lot more useful if everything is accecible through the initial menu somehow. Never quite liked clicking More >
[15:46]	Jacek Antonelli: 	It's hard to predict/imagine if the pie vs. rectangular would feel weird. I think it's worth a quick mockup to try and see how it feels
[15:46]	Boroondas Gupte: 	yeah, definitely
[15:47]	Geneko Nemeth: 	jacek: http://nekotoba.nfshost.com/files/fanout.png
[15:47]	Boroondas Gupte: 	might be this isn't as usable as I imagine it :-P
[15:47]	Morgaine Dinova: 	You can right-click on a pie menu entry ... sadly it has the same effect as left-clicking it. That's wasted --- I'd add meta-menu entries on the right-click, eg. "Copy this command", allowing you to paste it into a button say.
[15:47]	Boroondas Gupte: 	that'd be cool
[15:48]	Boroondas Gupte: 	actually, for all of the UI, not just pie menus
[15:48]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yeah
[15:48]	Boroondas Gupte: 	right-click on a side-bar tab > "Make this a floater"
[15:48]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Indeed
[15:49]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Another right-click menu entry for frame: "Paste button here"
[15:50]	Morgaine Dinova: 	And once there is a button, "Move Button", "Delete Button" too
[15:50]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I think my next big project is going to be generalizing all the UI actions so they can be rearranged and put anywhere, as buttons or menus or anything.
[15:50]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hehe, nice project
[15:51]	Jacek Antonelli: 	If I can just clear up some time for it
[15:51]	Boroondas Gupte: 	the GNOME panel works very similar to that, actually
[15:51]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hmmm. Wonder if I have that installed.
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli: 	NWN had a similar thing. The bottom bar was fully customizable, you could put any action down there. Spells, weapons to switch, voice actions to say ("Attack!"), and more
[15:53]	Morgaine Dinova: 	That's cool.
[15:53]	Jacek Antonelli: 	And they were accessible by the F1-F12 keys as well. Plus Ctrl-F#, Shift-F#, and Ctrl-Shift-F#
[15:53]	Geneko Nemeth: 	What are the number keys used for, then?
[15:53]	Jacek Antonelli: 	So it was really 48 customizable, quick access slots
[15:53]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I don't recall, Geneko
[15:54]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Cripes, I thought gnome-panel had destroyed my windows for a minute. It rewrote the w/m decorations until I Ctrl-C'd it
[15:55]	Boroondas Gupte: 	um ... what exactly are you trying morgaine?
[15:55]	Geneko Nemeth: 	That's e... no, that's Metacity...
[15:55]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Anyway. Boroondas, I think you've got a really interesting idea. Definitely worth trying out :)
[15:55]	Boroondas Gupte: 	if you use gnome, you're already running gnome-panel
[15:55]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Bor:I merely ran up gnome-panel. Didn't do anything yet
[15:55]	Geneko Nemeth: 	if you don't use GNOME... well, I think you knew what happened.
[15:55]	Geneko Nemeth: 	(It looks like a Gnome session inside a KDE session)
[15:56]	Boroondas Gupte: 	probably kde has similar functionality
[15:56]	Geneko Nemeth: 	But it shouldn't take over kwin, that's Metacity's job.
[15:56]	Boroondas Gupte: 	though i wouldn't try to mix the core components of those two (applications are fine)
[15:56]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I don't use Gnome nor KDE. Just a window manager (IceWM) plus an icon launcher for root window (idesktop).
[15:56]	McCabe Maxsted: 	anyone have a screenshot for a lowly windows user?
[15:57]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Hmmmmm~
[15:57]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Poor McCabe <grin>
[15:57]	Geneko Nemeth: 	McCabe: http://capitalfurs.myfreeforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1205&p=20081&hilit=raccoon#p20081
[15:57]	Geneko Nemeth: 	The top and the bottom, what we Windows users call task bar.
[15:58]	Geneko Nemeth: 	(The menu on the left says "Applcation/Places/System". And you can move that, too.)
[15:58]	McCabe Maxsted: 	ah okay, nice
[15:59]	Boroondas Gupte: 	I think some task bar elements on windows are movable, too, but not all.
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah. Linux UIs are definitely superior to Mac and Windows in the customizability department
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli pats McCabe on the head. 	Jacek Antonelli pats McCabe on the head.
[15:59]	Geneko Nemeth: 	You can only move sub-toolbars on task bar and then the start menu and the system tray/notifications are always at corners.
[16:00]	Boroondas Gupte: 	The important part is that everything also has a "lock" option in the context menu, so you avoid rearraning stuff by accident.
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Indeed
[16:00]	Geneko Nemeth: 	That was true in 98-Vista, not sure about 7...
[16:01]	McCabe Maxsted: 	it's better in 7, but not like linux, I imagine
[16:04]	Geneko Nemeth: 	... well, anything else on pie menus?
[16:04]	Boroondas Gupte: 	not from me, at the moment ...
[16:04]	McCabe Maxsted notices that they need to be wider anyway for languages other than english 	McCabe Maxsted notices that they need to be wider anyway for languages other than english
[16:04]	Boroondas Gupte: 	I should probably write stuff down and draw some pictures :-)
[16:04]	Lilly Zenovka: 	I've made a mockup
[16:04]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Please do, Boroondas :)
[16:05]	Lilly Zenovka: 	of some thoughts
[16:05]	Geneko Nemeth: 	... looks like nobody noticed my mockup. :<
[16:05]	Boroondas Gupte: 	the pictures you linked here?
[16:05]	Boroondas Gupte: 	I've looked at them, but the first one isn't easy to decipher
[16:05]	Lilly Zenovka: 	maybe whe've had the same idea geneko
[16:05]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I noticed it Geneko. Fan out is an interesting idea.
[16:06]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Lilly: ... no, compeletely different.
[16:06]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Pretty funny, this gnome taskbar that the panel pops up. It's mapped my 39 named workspaces from IceWM with their 0-15 xterms and apps of various kinds in them, all into a single taskbar image. Apart from the Imprudence window with its nice icon, everything else is unidentifiable :-)
[16:06]	Lilly Zenovka gave you Quick illustrator mockup. 	Lilly Zenovka gave you Quick illustrator mockup.
[16:06]	Lilly Zenovka: 	ok
[16:06]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Morgaine: That shouldn't happen, or maybe it's just your Window Manager isn't talking the talk.
[16:06]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hey, they're selling MotD space as advertising now
[16:07]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Metacity does have named workspaces. ... Hmm, but the workspace switcher didn't work well with Compiz, so it might... not be standarized.
[16:08]	Boroondas Gupte: 	Lilly, that'd be for the NWN-like variant (sub-pie around the top-level-pie)?
[16:09]	Lilly Zenovka: 	yes
[16:09]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Lilly, can you explain which areas select outside the main pie actually trigger the selection?
[16:09]	Lilly Zenovka: 	the idea is to click & release on the desired option
[16:10]	Lilly Zenovka: 	(lag)
[16:10]	Lilly Zenovka: 	for this mockup, it's "take off" -> "clothing"
[16:10]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Press and release on option can't be the only method. Has to work with click, then left click on option, too.
[16:10]	Lilly Zenovka: 	the sub is drawn centered on the upper level entry
[16:10]	Lilly Zenovka: 	yes, too
[16:10]	Lilly Zenovka: 	but right now you can't just click once
[16:10]	Morgaine Dinova: 	/m nods
[16:11]	Lilly Zenovka: 	by expanding subentries on highlight, this becomes possible
[16:11]	McCabe Maxsted wonders if a good behavior might be: hover over the option, it automatically previews; click and it selects 	McCabe Maxsted wonders if a good behavior might be: hover over the option, it automatically previews; click and it selects
[16:11]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I'm confused by the blue square. Is that part of the UI?
[16:12]	Lilly Zenovka: 	no, it's part of Adobe Illustrator
[16:12]	McCabe Maxsted: 	that way you could see what you look like taking off an item without taking it off, and won't accidentally remove something you don't want to
[16:12]	Morgaine Dinova: 	McCabe: if you can make it optional, sure. But usually hovering is bad news for accessibility. That's what mouseover is so frowned on.
[16:12]	McCabe Maxsted is thinking of the live preview in Office '07, truthfully 	McCabe Maxsted is thinking of the live preview in Office '07, truthfully
[16:12]	Lilly Zenovka: 	yeah, MC, on a sim with no lag & quick texture download for rebake
[16:13]	McCabe Maxsted: 	can't it all be done client side with the new renderer?
[16:14]	Boroondas Gupte: 	also, there must be quicker ways than a full rebake ... how does the appearance floater do it?
[16:14]	Geneko Nemeth: 	baking is already done at the client side.
[16:15]	Lilly Zenovka: 	if one change texture on the appearance floater, it dwnld it and rebake.
[16:15]	Morgaine Dinova: 	McCabe: that was in reference to the hover not being good if it's the only way. Yeah, actions like preview would be brill.
[16:16]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Has anyone here made use of personal bakes?
[16:16]	Jacek Antonelli: 	What's that?
[16:16]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I wish, but I don't have an oven.
[16:16]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hehe
[16:16]	Geneko Nemeth: 	(Does anyone notice that Aimee poofed?(
[16:17]	McCabe Maxsted nods 	McCabe Maxsted nods
[16:17]	McCabe Maxsted: 	she poofed a while ago
[16:17]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Geneko: She poofed a half hour ago
[16:17]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Slow me.
[16:17]	Morgaine Dinova: 	It's the best feature of the new method of wearable handling. The bake you send up doesn't need to bear any relation whatsoever to the wearables you've got equiipped. You could manufacture any baked textures you like, and the sim will happily send them to everyone.
[16:17]	McCabe Maxsted: 	probably passed out, it's late for her
[16:18]	Morgaine Dinova: 	So it really gives power to the user.
[16:18]	Geneko Nemeth: 	... I don't see how this could empower the user.
[16:18]	Morgaine Dinova: 	You don't even need to place your wearables in asset store.
[16:19]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Gen: your bake is completely arbitrary, up to you.
[16:19]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Which means you'll have to deal putting wearables somewhere other than the asset store.
[16:19]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Sure, they'd be in the most sensible place for your wearables --- on your PC :-)
[16:20]	Geneko Nemeth: 	That doesn't make any sense unless you're a clothing maker.
[16:20]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Geneko: Three words: Infinite clothing layers.
[16:20]	Morgaine Dinova: 	As Jacek says
[16:20]	McCabe Maxsted: 	INFINITE! *head explodes*
[16:20]	Jacek Antonelli: 	This is on my "To do if I didn't have so much else to do already" list
[16:20]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Jacek: Yeah, and how is the viewer supposed to figure out what clothing you're wearing without getting to the asset store...
[16:20]	Geneko Nemeth: 	NAGI (Not a good idea)
[16:21]	Geneko Nemeth: 	OTOH, the potential to be able to doodle on your shirt seems appealing.
[16:21]	Boroondas Gupte: 	also, what when the user logs in from another machine?
[16:21]	Lilly Zenovka: 	poof naked
[16:21]	McCabe Maxsted draws on Lilly 	McCabe Maxsted draws on Lilly
[16:21]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Gen: you're being too LL-centric. :-) Think beyond that. You could travel across the metaverse and wear your favourite clothing without needing to worry about the local world provider.
[16:22]	Morgaine Dinova: 	It's very user-empowering
[16:22]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Or you could build an asset store into your viewer...
[16:22]	Geneko Nemeth: 	... that fetches clothings from your home realm...
[16:22]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yep, your ocal wardrobe, take it anywhere with you
[16:22]	Morgaine Dinova: 	local*
[16:23]	Geneko Nemeth: 	It will probably be standard issue in viewers when girdauants become more widespread.
[16:23]	Boroondas Gupte: 	well, I think I should have to worry neither about the local world provider nor about my own computer. Which means I need a seperate asset provider.
[16:23]	Lilly Zenovka: 	asset transfer already works on hypergrid TP
[16:24]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Bor: that's what we're working towards in VWRAP, decoupled asset service providers. Use whichever you want for your own assets, LL's, another providers', or an asset service on your own machine.
[16:24]	Boroondas Gupte: 	http://boroon.dasgupta.ch/persistent_inventory/ (note that this text is rather old and from before I know about OGP/VWRAP)
[16:24]	Morgaine Dinova: 	As Lilly says
[16:24]	Boroondas Gupte: 	s/know/knew/
[16:25]	Geneko Nemeth: 	...
[16:26]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Heheh.
[16:26]	Boroondas Gupte: 	?
[16:26]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Nothing, just that everyoen's so slient suddenly.
[16:27]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I think let's wrap it up for this week. I have to go, lots to do to get ready for the new Imprudence beta this weekend
[16:27]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Any final remarks?
[16:27]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Aww, so no time for me talking?
[16:27]	McCabe Maxsted nods, indeed 	McCabe Maxsted nods, indeed
[16:27]	Lilly Zenovka: 	it should not be very hard to implement "infinite" clothing layer
[16:27]	McCabe Maxsted: 	haha geneko
[16:27]	Morgaine Dinova: 	LOL Lilly
[16:28]	Lilly Zenovka: 	Y?
[16:28]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Although I don't have much to talk anyway, just even more text and undecipherable diagrams.
[16:28]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I agree Lilly. Just layer arbitrary texture to bake them
[16:28]	Morgaine Dinova: 	How's Imprudence going?
[16:28]	Jacek Antonelli: 	textures*
[16:28]	Boroondas Gupte: 	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_One_Infinity
[16:28]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Many changes since Beta 1?
[16:28]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Morg: Plenty of bug fixes, some quite important. Also some features that were coming down the pipeline.
[16:29]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Great
[16:29]	Lilly Zenovka: 	fix for mac shortcuts ?
[16:29]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I've been in OSgrid for multiple hours with Beta 1, doesn't fail. ++ :-)
[16:29]	McCabe Maxsted: 	:)
[16:29]	Lilly Zenovka: 	i'm on it but it takes time to figure everything out
[16:29]	McCabe Maxsted: 	what mac shortcuts?
[16:30]	Morgaine Dinova: 	But the grid manager not respecting the -grid flag annoys me :-(
[16:30]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Lilly: Probably not for beta 2, but we'd love to have it in the next one
[16:30]	Lilly Zenovka: 	cmd-A on ASCII keyboard act as Cmd-Q
[16:30]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Keyboard shortcuts are wrong on Mac when using a non-QWERTY layout
[16:30]	McCabe Maxsted: 	ahh
[16:30]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Long time problem with the SL viewer
[16:30]	Lilly Zenovka: 	the jira entry exists for viewer 1.18
[16:31]	McCabe Maxsted: 	still in 2.0 too?
[16:31]	Lilly Zenovka: 	yes
[16:31]	McCabe Maxsted: 	dang
[16:31]	Lilly Zenovka: 	I presume nobody uses a mac
[16:31]	Armin Weatherwax: 	like ctrl-alt<f-key>
[16:31]	McCabe Maxsted: 	that surprises me.... most people who use SL™ are international
[16:31]	McCabe Maxsted would've thought ti'd be higher on their list 	McCabe Maxsted would've thought ti'd be higher on their list
[16:31]	Morgaine Dinova: 	McCabe: now that Viewer2.0 has fixed the bug where scrolled up windows are reset to bottom on refocus, you really have no excuse for the bug in Impru :DDDD
[16:32]	Lilly Zenovka: 	I don't think we can presume anything on what's high on their list.
[16:32]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hehe true
[16:32]	Jacek Antonelli: 	No, fixing it would be useful, ergo LL won't do it.
[16:32]	Morgaine Dinova: 	We were joking that LL has finally fired Reset Linden :-)
[16:32]	Lilly Zenovka: 	who's Reset ?
[16:32]	Armin Weatherwax: 	anyone ever met Devnull Linden?
[16:32]	Boroondas Gupte: 	The Linden who auto-scrolls-down your IM window when you don't want it.
[16:33]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehehe
[16:33]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Lilly: The Linden who sprays window and camera resets all over the code
[16:33]	Lilly Zenovka: 	lol ok
[16:33]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Armin: Does Devnull Linden delete all IMs and items you give to him?
[16:33]	Armin Weatherwax: 	he never answered to that q ... dunno
[16:33]	Lilly Zenovka: 	what about CoreDump Linden ?
[16:34]	Jacek Antonelli: 	He probably deleted your IM before he read the question, then
[16:34]	Armin Weatherwax: 	office hours are at feb 29th 4am I read
[16:34]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehehe
[16:34]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Haha
[16:34]	McCabe Maxsted: 	XD
[16:34]	Jacek Antonelli: 	It's nice some Lindens still have a sense of humor
[16:35]	Lilly Zenovka: 	any1 read the opensourcedev mailing list ?
[16:35]	Boroondas Gupte does 	Boroondas Gupte does
[16:35]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I wonder how Pink reacted to the Youtube video by Lindenlice
[16:35]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Not since they named it opensource-dev...
[16:35]	Armin Weatherwax does 	Armin Weatherwax does
[16:35]	McCabe Maxsted pokes at threads every now and again, but don't have time to much anymore 	McCabe Maxsted pokes at threads every now and again, but don't have time to much anymore
[16:35]	Lilly Zenovka read an interestig post about 2.0 interface this morning. 	Lilly Zenovka read an interestig post about 2.0 interface this morning.
[16:35]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I read it sometimes. It's so angry lately, though.
[16:35]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Coders sure are a grumpy lot.
[16:36]	Morgaine Dinova: 	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YX7FtzB3S0
[16:36]	Armin Weatherwax: 	well both the list and SG need to be independend from LL
[16:36]	Armin Weatherwax: 	then the anger will vanish (more or less)
[16:37]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Armin++
[16:37]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Not when they still have people making stuff like TPVP up.
[16:37]	Jacek Antonelli: 	LL should make a special mailing list for rants
[16:38]	Morgaine Dinova: 	The list is so angry because LL is using mushroom management on FOSS devs. "Keep them in the dark, and feed them shit".
[16:38]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Morgaine: Nyahahaha.
[16:38]	Jacek Antonelli: 	lol Morgaine. That's a very adept analogy
[16:39]	McCabe Maxsted wants that bucket 	McCabe Maxsted wants that bucket
[16:39]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Of manure?
[16:39]	McCabe Maxsted: 	no from the video, hehe
[16:39]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Oh, ah.
[16:39]	McCabe Maxsted: 	too funny
[16:39]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I don't know Pink, but Latif says that's her to a 'T'
[16:40]	Armin Weatherwax: 	also it needs to be possible to contribute to SG without signing the LL agreement on the code going closed source
[16:40]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Armin++
[16:40]	Morgaine Dinova: 	again :-)
[16:41]	Armin Weatherwax: 	:)
[16:41]	Morgaine Dinova: 	It's a vile agreement. I doubt that everyone knows what it says, prolly trn off at the legalese
[16:41]	Morgaine Dinova: 	turn*
[16:41]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Having developers assign rights to a central authority happens all the time.
[16:41]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Nah, forget Snowglobe. Everybody come work on Imprudence instead. ;)
[16:41]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hehe
[16:41]	McCabe Maxsted: 	:D
[16:42]	Lilly Zenovka: 	time for one real fork
[16:42]	Armin Weatherwax: 	I'll think about it, Jacek ;)
[16:42]	Geneko Nemeth: 	So, this is my project. http://nekotoba.nfshost.com/files/something.html#Personae
[16:44]	Jacek Antonelli reads 	Jacek Antonelli reads
[16:45]	Geneko Nemeth: 	... sorry, I should have asked if people still want to read it.
[16:45]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I'm reading it. Not sure what the project goal is though
[16:46]	Geneko Nemeth: 	... nah, it was a bad idea to show you guys this wall of text.
[16:46]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I like text. I produce lots of it myself <grin>
[16:47]	McCabe Maxsted: 	I only read popup books sorry :P
[16:47]	Lilly Zenovka: 	does any1 have a standalone patch for the hippogridmanager ?
[16:48]	Boroondas Gupte: 	lol @ "Mochisoft"
[16:48]	Morgaine Dinova: 	So this is a project to start from requirements interviews with 3 varied users, all the way to modifying a UI to suit them?
[16:48]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Geneko: I'd love to have you present your ideas in a few weeks, once it's more solidified
[16:48]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Heh, I do need to solidify it a lot.
[16:49]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yeah, I'd like that too. I would probably disagree, but would happily listen to the whole thing :-)
[16:49]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I'm to be designing a new build interface for SL in only two weeks, but there's no way you can figure that out from the report.
[16:49]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, I've gotta go. Remember, our special visitor Lisa is coming next week to discuss SL accessibility for users with disabilities. Don't miss it! :)
[16:50]	McCabe Maxsted: 	woot! :)
[16:50]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Take care, everyone!