Bug triage/2007-11-19/Transcript

* [12:03] Soft Linden: Hey hey hey
* [12:03] Wyn Galbraith: feels all warm and sniggly over here.
* [12:03] Theodore Folsom: Alexaaaa ^^ Hullows
* [12:03] Aric Linden: G'Day all
* [12:03] Alexa Linden: sorry, I'm late
* [12:03] Daedalus Young: hi
* [12:03] Wyn Galbraith: I have a heater on right now so you don't want to hear that.
* [12:04] Theodore Folsom: Hi Kerry
* [12:04] Alexa Linden: Hey all, sorry I'm late
* [12:04] Kerry Giha: Hello everyone
* [12:04] Domchi Underwood: Hi everyone
* [12:04] Aric Linden: let's get start
* [12:05] Rob Linden: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Bug_triage/Monday_Agenda
* [12:05] Aric Linden: wiki is ossm slow
* [12:05] Bridie Linden: +1
* [12:05] Squirrel Wood: the jira seems to be dead again to the public.. pages not loading for me
* [12:05] Alexa Linden: Hi Squirrel :D
* [12:06] Squirrel Wood: hi hi ^^
* [12:06] Aric Linden: jira is dead to me
* [12:06] Daedalus Young: was fine 10 minutes ago, then suddenly stopped
* [12:06] Wyn Galbraith: Too cute.
* [12:06] Alexa Linden: let's begin
* [12:06] Alexa Linden: SVC-913
* [12:06] Wyn Galbraith: Oops, wrong window *blush*
* [12:06] Alexa Linden: Allow LSL scripts to act as HTTP servers in order to replace XMLRPC with something scalable
* [12:06] Soft Linden: I wonder at whether we should script something up to make static snapshots of JIRA pages pre-meeting
* [12:07] Squirrel Wood: Might be a good idea
* [12:07] Michael McLuhan: original concern was denial of service by external sources of HTTP requests? is this accounted for in proposed design?
* [12:07] Aric Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-913
* [12:07] Gigs Taggart: soft, I'm working on jira stats remember, well that's going to have a full backup DB of the jira
* [12:07] Aric Linden: and we're off
* [12:07] Daedalus Young: ahh, JIRA appears to be revived
* [12:08] Gigs Taggart: this first one is pretty straightforward, it was even suggested by a linden :)
* [12:09] Rob Linden: well, I suppose we can just import it, and change Sean to the reporter
* [12:09] Alexa Linden: noted
* [12:09] Soft Linden: That vote count and that many watchers... can't see a reason not to push it in
* [12:09] Aric Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-29 is next
* [12:09] Gigs Taggart: XMLRPC is getting really useless, I recommend no one ever use it for new applications
* [12:09] Squirrel Wood: Keep in mind though that scripts acting as http servers do have limited memory while a web server does not
* [12:09] Gigs Taggart: SVC-29 is related
* [12:10] Aric Linden: This one will be resolved by changes we're making internally
* [12:10] Daedalus Young: svc-29 is a regular triage member
* [12:10] Michael McLuhan: im concerned with the denial of service applied to a sim that processes these requests
* [12:10] Aric Linden: grins ad Daedalus
* [12:10] Aric Linden: erm at
* [12:10] Soft Linden: Aric - should this be linked to that internal issue?
* [12:11] Aric Linden: hmm. yes,
* [12:11] Tillie Ariantho: Yeah, if the XML-RPC cant get fixed because the server is too slow, and adding a second wouldn't help, then just remove it and offer some replacement.
* [12:11] Soft Linden: Ah - this is already imported
* [12:11] Tillie Ariantho: Talking about the same dead thingy for a year doesn’t help at all.
* [12:11] Squirrel Wood: besides, llEmail basically "allows" for "http" service already
* [12:12] Aric Linden: Tille agreed
* [12:12] Matthew Dowd: I think people want fixes rather than "imported"
* [12:12] Henri Beauchamp: llEmail suffers from the absence of event support...
* [12:12] Tillie Ariantho: Fix it or remove it as unfixable, but then replace it. It's quite simple. .)
* [12:12] Rob Linden: the "XML-RPC is slow" issue is going to perpetually be open, methinks
* [12:12] Rob Linden: the reason
* [12:12] Gigs Taggart: heh yess matthew, the reason we talk about it for a year is because outside of these meetings it comes up daily!
* [12:12] Rob Linden: demand will often (always?) outstrip supply on that
* [12:12] Michael McLuhan: reliable and slow is fine, broke and slow isnt.
* [12:13] Gigs Taggart: almost every day on scripters group someone asks about xmlrpc and we have to tell them not to use it
* [12:13] Squirrel Wood: Isn't xml-rpc routed through a single server ?
* [12:13] Aric Linden: afk momentarily
* [12:13] Rob Linden: I suspect whatever changes we have up our sleeve will fix it for three months, and then people will reopen this one
* [12:13] Squirrel Wood: Most likely
* [12:13] Aric Linden: back
* [12:13] Squirrel Wood: wb
* [12:14] Matthew Dowd: if the front end server is just routing xml-rpc to be hanled by the sim, it shouldn't be too prone to overload
* [12:14] Domchi Underwood: Can't XML-RPC be scaled so that every sim can bring up its own XML-RPS servers as needed? XML-RPC is pretty simple.. couple of classes. :)
* [12:14] Michael McLuhan: the bottle neck is at the single server?
* [12:15] Tillie Ariantho: Yes, I wonder what the server is doing. Is it preparsing the XML or something? THEN I know why it is that slow and overloaded ...
* [12:15] Aric Linden: Michael, we're not sure if is server or threading
* [12:15] Squirrel Wood: single servers tend to be prime bottlenecks
* [12:15] Michael McLuhan: has experiemnt been made to push it to the class5 sims?
* [12:15] Rob Linden: not sure that any of the LIndens here can chip in all that much to the conversation. I'd recommend someone send a mail to sldev on the subject, and I'll help engage the right people at Linden to speak about it
* [12:15] Michael McLuhan: so each sim handles its own?
* [12:15] Gigs Taggart: yes lets move on, we have a lot to cover today
* [12:15] Tillie Ariantho: XML parsings tend to be bottle necks too. .)
* [12:15] Matthew Dowd: well it should be a cluster rather than a single machine - but it should be a light touch just rerouting to the relevant sim
* [12:15] Aric Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/WEB-382
* [12:16] Squirrel Wood: I spent like half a day reading through that one
* [12:16] Rob Linden: gives everyone a chance to read and comment. My opinion is one of the last comments in the issue
* [12:16] Gigs Taggart: prokofy was supposed to be coming... hrm
* [12:16] Michael McLuhan: all items are closed on support with unilateral decision, why not jira?
* [12:16] Rob Linden: Prokofy said she wouldn't be able to make it
* [12:16] Squirrel Wood: Prokofy likes to bully his opinions through
* [12:16] Squirrel Wood: or her
* [12:17] Daedalus Young: just as anybody can resolve and close issues, anybody can *reopen* issues too!
* [12:17] Michael McLuhan: people seem to think its a democaracy; the model of other services doesnt fit that, why should the jira?
* [12:17] Squirrel Wood: The way I see issues with Prokofy is that if Prokofy does not like something it must immediately be changed to suit his or her needs.
* [12:17] Rob Linden: the main question: jira permitting, should I make it so that no one but Lindens can resolve/close issues?
* [12:17] Michael McLuhan: yes. or your delegates.
* [12:17] Aric Linden: looks at Rob Linden
* [12:17] Grace McDunnough: Yes
* [12:17] Gigs Taggart: There is the question of VWR-3071, it's an obvious duplicate of 2811 but she keeps reopening it.
* [12:18] Aric Linden: I vote no
* [12:18] Rob Linden: I also vote "no"
* [12:18] Theodore Folsom: does that include the moving of issues ?
* [12:18] Wyn Galbraith: That's a lot of work for Lindens.
* [12:18] Michael McLuhan: then assign spefici delegates.
* [12:18] Alexa Linden: I would hate to see that because the residents are very helpful in getting things move to the right areas
* [12:18] Soft Linden: I'd sure like a list of issues where this ability has been abused before up and changing things.
* [12:18] Gigs Taggart: you all have no clue how much junk we close every day
* [12:18] Gigs Taggart: 50% of the bugs filed are resolved within 1 day right now
* [12:18] Alexa Linden: far too many things just get tossed into MISC
* [12:18] Michael McLuhan: dont open it to everyone to close items. thats a griefer tool
* [12:18] Aric Linden: and how much junk gets reopened everday
* [12:18] Alexa Linden: that too
* [12:18] Alexa Linden: or duplicated
* [12:18] Aric Linden: bu the idea is to have a dialog
* [12:18] Wyn Galbraith: And this is PJira, not the internal. I think it should remain as it is.
* [12:18] Michael McLuhan: assign delegates
* [12:19] Rob Linden: we have a "good citizens" group already in JIRA, which we could restrict it to
* [12:19] Daedalus Young: good-citizens
* [12:19] Squirrel Wood: appointed delegates may "solve" this issue
* [12:19] Gigs Taggart: that's probably not what prokofy had in mind here...
* [12:19] Gigs Taggart: :P
* [12:19] Rob Linden: however, many of the people that Prokofy is complaining about are in that group
* [12:19] Alexa Linden: but what if your views don't match theirs? then you're back to the same issue
* [12:19] Wyn Galbraith: Except that Prokofy would never approve of anyone sat as a Linden delegate.
* [12:19] Michael McLuhan: dont make it democratic how delegates are assigned.
* [12:19] Matthew Dowd: is there any reall evidence of abuse apart from the odd mistake or one or two sepcific cases?
* [12:19] Gigs Taggart: rob: if only good citizens can close than only the assigner or good citizens should be able to reopen also.
* [12:19] Alexa Linden: touche Wyn
* [12:19] Gigs Taggart: I mean the reporter
* [12:20] Soft Linden: I'm going to edit the title of this one. From the title, some might read this to mean the opposite of what the body implies.
* [12:20] Michael McLuhan: reopen should be available to the original person filing
* [12:20] Michael McLuhan: just like support
* [12:20] Henri Beauchamp: agrees with Michael.
* [12:20] Gigs Taggart: soft yes I think that explains michael's confusion :)
* [12:20] Michael McLuhan: jira mechanics shouldnt be much different than support tickets
* [12:20] Domchi Underwood: The question is, what's technicalley possible in JIRA. JIRA tends to be non-customizable in such things.
* [12:20] Wyn Galbraith: Reopen is already available, correct?
* [12:20] Henri Beauchamp: yes, fro everyone
* [12:20] Henri Beauchamp: + for
* [12:21] Gigs Taggart: wyn yes, reopen by pissed off users who see it "resolve" as "fixed internally" is a major hassle
* [12:21] Rob Linden: Michael: this isn't a support tool
* [12:21] Gigs Taggart: that bug is coming up soon on the agenda too :)
* [12:21] Michael McLuhan: its what then? seems to me getting bugs organized is a support tool
* [12:21] Aric Linden: does it seem that we have a plan for this?
* [12:21] Michael McLuhan: for develpers
* [12:22] Aric Linden: likes that prokovy spawned so much dialog on the topic
* [12:22] Gigs Taggart: What is the plan? I'd rather it stay the way it is than only allowing good citizens to do it.
* [12:22] Rob Linden: Michael: it's a tool for developers to keep track of issues
* [12:22] Michael McLuhan: issue, bug, ok nomenclature.
* [12:22] Daedalus Young: I agree with Gigs, either Linden only or open to all
* [12:22] Wyn Galbraith: It's what Prokofy is good at. I think it should stand as is.
* [12:23] Rob Linden: I prefer the status quo, too
* [12:23] Gigs Taggart: I don't see linden-only as an option
* [12:23] Alexa Linden: ditto
* [12:23] Bridie Linden: +1
* [12:23] Daedalus Young: therefor open to all
* [12:23] Jason Swain: I liked to keep it open to all
* [12:23] Soft Linden: Can we "needs-more-info" this, asking for a list of issues where the current ability has been abused? Then, if it's just 1-2 abusers (if any), we can start by talking to them rather than locking everything up.
* [12:23] Wyn Galbraith: It's Linden only on the internal jira, correct? So should be open to all in the PJira.
* [12:23] Gigs Taggart: if it were linden only it could quickly become as useless as the old FVT
* [12:23] Rob Linden: good idea, Soft
* [12:23] Alexa Linden: noted
* [12:23] Gigs Taggart: well the answer to that question is going to be VWR-3071
* [12:23] Aric Linden: agrees with Rob on Soft's idea
* [12:24] Wyn Galbraith: agrees with Soft.
* [12:24] Daedalus Young: besides that, Lindens should use their time for better things
* [12:24] Chilli Cao: I found it very usefull to re-open an issue that was "resolved" after the region restart, original reporter was not checking the issue, and today it got the attention it needed
* [12:24] Aric Linden: examples may help us better understand the problem
* [12:24] Jason Swain: agrees with softs comment
* [12:24] Rob Linden: k....well, let's talk about VWR-3071
* [12:24] Gigs Taggart: Examples are myself and Lex!
* [12:24] Alexa Linden: hahahaha
* [12:24] Rob Linden: ossm
* [12:24] Gigs Taggart: those are the names you are going to get
* [12:24] Aric Linden: let's resolve needs more info and ask for specifics
* [12:25] Rob Linden: sold
* [12:25] Alexa Linden: noted
* [12:25] Wyn Galbraith: sighs, "Hacker use to mean you just liked to stay up all night programming."
* [12:25] Gigs Taggart: VWR-3071 is a duplicate of VWR-2811
* [12:25] Gigs Taggart: I tried to close it twice
* [12:25] Gigs Taggart: well, resolve
* [12:25] Aric Linden: and what happened?
* [12:25] Matthew Dowd: jira is so slow!
* [12:25] Wyn Galbraith: It doesn't look hooked up to 2811
* [12:25] Gigs Taggart: Prokofy says it's different
* [12:26] Gigs Taggart: Wyn, it has issue links
* [12:26] Rob Linden: my sense on VWR-3071 is that we should keep it open for now, but link it to the same internal jira issue
* [12:27] Alexa Linden: noted
* [12:27] Rob Linden: looks up internal num for VWR-2811
* [12:27] Matthew Dowd: 2811 is closed!
* [12:27] Gigs Taggart: 2811 is wontfix
* [12:27] Wyn Galbraith: isn't seeing the issue links.
* [12:27] Gigs Taggart: steve wontfixed 2811
* [12:27] Squirrel Wood: Prokofy certainly is not going to accept "Won'tFix" as an answer
* [12:27] Gigs Taggart: VWR-2908 is the actionable items we could get out of 2811
* [12:27] Wyn Galbraith: facepalms, "Was in the wrong one."
* [12:27] Aric Linden: It's wontfix because the new search implementation should resolve this
* [12:28] Gigs Taggart: and VWR-2908 is fixed internally
* [12:28] Aric Linden: maybe if we let prokofy close it, she'll feel comfortable with the closure?
* [12:28] Wyn Galbraith: Can't fix what's been replaced.
* [12:28] Rob Linden: oh, 2908 may be the one I'm thinking of
* [12:28] Wyn Galbraith: You can ask.
* [12:28] Gigs Taggart: Aric 2811 is calling for search to be opt-in rather than opt-out
* [12:28] Gigs Taggart: as is prokofy's
* [12:28] Aric Linden: hold please, I'm looking
* [12:29] Gigs Taggart: Steve is strongly opposed to this idea.
* [12:29] Gigs Taggart: 2908 is about repairing the "not really for sale" items and not listing no-copy items
* [12:29] Michael McLuhan: those that have things to hide should be pretty quick on the learning curve to opt out.
* [12:29] Squirrel Wood: opt-in would result in content present inworld where the owners don't play anymore not to show up in search at all
* [12:30] Matthew Dowd: mmmm, I may have to chase James linden on his fix - the show in search checkbox should be enabled for all objects you own regardless of the permissions
* [12:30] Henri Beauchamp: The problem is that it might already be too late when you opt out... Google will already have archived it...
* [12:30] Matthew Dowd: his comment implies otherwise
* [12:30] Gigs Taggart: matthew what do you mean?
* [12:30] Michael McLuhan: google displays on effective permission though, ya? who cares about the archive?
* [12:30] Seg Baphomet: HAY GUYS
* [12:31] Daedalus Young: hi
* [12:31] Squirrel Wood: Yellow Seg
* [12:31] Matthew Dowd: James' comment on 2908 is "When the next client ships, you will be able to turn off the "for sale" checkbox for objects you own, are set for sale, but cannot be transfered. (Also for objects set for sale copy, with no copy permissions)"
* [12:31] Aric Linden: Hi Seg
* [12:31] Theodore Folsom: Hi Seg
* [12:31] Gigs Taggart: matthew there's no point is listing them for sale if they are no-transfer
* [12:31] Matthew Dowd: but the owner should always be able to set/unset show in search
* [12:31] Gigs Taggart: matthew no one can buy them
* [12:31] Soft Linden: Google would sure be a boring place if the web had been opt-in.
* [12:31] Matthew Dowd: Oh, sorry, I misread, I thought he was talking about the for search box not the for sale box!
* [12:32] Gigs Taggart: soft hehe
* [12:32] Daedalus Young: yes, robots.txt on sites basically is an opt-out system as well
* [12:32] Seg Baphomet: Remember Yahoo?
* [12:32] Gigs Taggart: there is one solution
* [12:32] Domchi Underwood: The cache/archive problem might be solved with no-archive header on the web page, if I'm not mistaken
* [12:32] Henri Beauchamp: agrees with Domchi
* [12:32] Gigs Taggart: a parcel setting, separate from the normal parcel search that asks "list items on this parcel in search"
* [12:32] Gigs Taggart: that would solve this issue
* [12:33] Michael McLuhan: we dont need 10 ways to opt in or out.
* [12:33] Gigs Taggart: it could still be opt out but if it's opt-out on a whole parcel level I believe that people would be more accepting
* [12:33] Henri Beauchamp: <meta name="robots" content="noarchive">
* [12:33] Daedalus Young: hm, I rent a shop and have nothing to say over the parcel, really
* [12:33] Aric Linden: Gigs: wouldn't you then need a way to opt specifics out?
* [12:33] Michael McLuhan: if the parcel says exclude it, then exclude it.
* [12:33] Wyn Galbraith: Don't want search to come up with 10kzillion objects called objects either.
* [12:33] Gigs Taggart: aric, you would still have the per-item search
* [12:34] Tillie Ariantho: I still vote for opt in, not opt out!
* [12:34] Gigs Taggart: aric I mean you could make items not for sale if you don't want them in search
* [12:34] Wyn Galbraith: Default is not for sale on objects.
* [12:34] Michael McLuhan: put forsale items on the parcel that says search is good
* [12:34] Tillie Ariantho: Better something is not on sale that you set to sale by error than a sale that doesnt sell because you didnt set it for sale.
* [12:34] Henri Beauchamp: also prefers to have -all- web based searches as an opt-in feature.
* [12:34] Henri Beauchamp: Privacy issues there...
* [12:34] Wyn Galbraith: Tillie makes my head spin.
* [12:35] Michael McLuhan: game stats that are marked for publishing are private?
* [12:35] Tillie Ariantho: What I mean is: If you set something for sale by error, you dont want anyone to buy it, right?
* [12:35] Michael McLuhan: have them unmark for searching like we did on our profiles
* [12:35] Aric Linden: I think we need to revisit this internally, factoring in the feedback we're getting here
* [12:35] Tillie Ariantho: So make it default, that items are NOT found.
* [12:35] Soft Linden: Here's the pragmatic point I see: There are already bots that scan for for-sale objects. If we go opt-out on search, that adds more incentive for bots to crawl and feed info th third-party search sites. It would add much less load to have them crawling our existing search listings.
* [12:35] Michael McLuhan: let LL provide the listings so the bots dont have to
* [12:35] Wyn Galbraith: Good point Soft.
* [12:36] Squirrel Wood: hmm.. Odd. things rez in a totally different place than where I dragged them on the ground :(
* [12:36] Tillie Ariantho: Yeah, but better have bots that have to do active search than just list all stuff in search!
* [12:36] Aric Linden: nods at Michael
* [12:36] Gigs Taggart: tillie, why?
* [12:36] Tillie Ariantho: To make it harder to loose them?
* [12:36] Michael McLuhan: opt in default, people learn how to work the controls.
* [12:36] Gigs Taggart: to loose what?
* [12:37] Tillie Ariantho: those items you set to sale by error?
* [12:37] Aric Linden: Folks, I'd like to move us forward. I'm wondering if we can simply capture this part of the chat history and have steve and James take a look at it and discuss
* [12:37] Gigs Taggart: oh, you mean lose :)
* [12:37] Aric Linden: is that a workable solution for everyone?
* [12:37] Gigs Taggart: I was thinking "the bots are already loose!"
* [12:37] Tillie Ariantho: that too, gigs. .P
* [12:37] Daedalus Young: fine with me Aric
* [12:37] Wyn Galbraith: agrees.
* [12:37] Tillie Ariantho: too
* [12:37] Soft Linden: Sure, or this may be a good continued sldev discussion.
* [12:38] Domchi Underwood: From Internet Archive FAQ:
* [12:38] Domchi Underwood: Site owners, copyright holders and others who fit Internet Archive's exclusion policy have requested that the site be excluded from the Wayback Machine. For exclusion criteria, please see our exclusion policy (we use the same one used and developed by other digital repositories and archivists both academic and non-academic).
* [12:38] Aric Linden: Agreed Soft
* [12:38] Domchi Underwood: Might be a way to exclude search from archive, but allow Google.
* [12:38] Aric Linden: I don't think we're going to resolve this here
* [12:38] Domchi Underwood: Agreed, let's move on.
* [12:38] Tillie Ariantho: yes, next! :D
* [12:38] Aric Linden: and it feels as though we're beginning to revisit topics
* [12:38] Rob Linden: ok....so there's two parts to this issue. one is the resolution of the issue itself, which we've done
* [12:38] Aric Linden: thanks all!
* [12:38] Matthew Dowd: is the for sale object default to show in search (on land set to show in search) always the case for newly rezzed objects, or just for the initial load of the new search engine?
* [12:38] Michael McLuhan: if you get backup from your archive, then who cares, make sure the display on query is correct based on ownership and permissions
* [12:39] Rob Linden: the other is whether there was anything particularly abusive....
* [12:39] Daedalus Young: funny thing is Wayback machine still archives, even if they're not allowed to, I found that out by allowing them and suddenly finding my old pages
* [12:39] Rob Linden: that warrants a change in policy (per Prok)
* [12:39] Rob Linden: I didn't see anything
* [12:39] Aric Linden: Gigs, you wanted a ping on https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-442
* [12:39] Gigs Taggart: yes
* [12:39] Aric Linden: whatup?
* [12:39] Gigs Taggart: it's a pretty important patch considering the consequence of messing up
* [12:39] Gigs Taggart: you could lose control of land you own
* [12:39] Gigs Taggart: etc
* [12:40] Gigs Taggart: it's been sitting around for months
* [12:40] Soft Linden: Anyway: Pepsi, emacs, matte finish, Ford, OS X, *GNU*/Debian, and opt-out. We're done!
* [12:40] Henri Beauchamp: votes for VWR-442 too
* [12:40] Soft Linden: VWR-442 looks like a win alright.
* [12:40] Aric Linden: looks at Soft curiously
* [12:41] Aric Linden: Let's grab this 442 shall we?
* [12:41] Alexa Linden: assign to?
* [12:41] Squirrel Wood: 442 is certainly something that needs to be put in ^^
* [12:41] Soft Linden: Yup! Might run it by Benjamin just to be sure, but given how much you can forfeit by slipping up and assigning thewrong role...
* [12:41] Bridie Linden: 442 already has been imported
* [12:41] Soft Linden: Ah!
* [12:41] Theodore Folsom: gewd
* [12:41] Gigs Taggart: yeah that's why it was a ping instead of a normal triage item
* [12:41] Gigs Taggart: more like... hey guys :)
* [12:42] Tillie Ariantho: hehe
* [12:42] Soft Linden: And it's already assigned to Rx internally
* [12:42] Bridie Linden: Sorry Gigs, gotcha
* [12:42] Soft Linden: Last input was Ben asked for a screenshot to approve the dialog. I'll mention on the internal that there's one there.
* [12:42] Theodore Folsom: Yup yups
* [12:42] Aric Linden: Thanks Soft
* [12:42] Aric Linden: let's move on to https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/WEB-383
* [12:43] Gigs Taggart: WEB-383 is pretty straightforward, the page is wrong, newbs will be confused. :)
* [12:43] Aric Linden: glances around: really nice turnout today
* [12:43] Aric Linden: Alexa, let's take 383 - please assign it directly to Jeff Linden
* [12:43] Alexa Linden: noted
* [12:43] katykiwi Moonflower: any update on the price fixing on rez bug
* [12:43] Daedalus Young: I'm confused and I don't see myself a newb anymore
* [12:43] Tillie Ariantho: Sure Aric, important agenda. .P
* [12:44] Michael McLuhan: you too can have a free alt is what it should read
* [12:44] Daedalus Young: I finally got Payment info on file this week! :D so no newb
* [12:44] Caroline Ra: noob or not its still easy to assign owner to someone you didnt want to if youre tired/emotional
* [12:44] Aric Linden: price fixing onrez bug?
* [12:44] Rob Linden: for the record, I wasn't aware of a change in policy there.
* [12:44] Gigs Taggart: caroline we are on the next bug now
* [12:44] Aric Linden: grins at Tillie
* [12:44] katykiwi Moonflower: the one where you rex a group of items and all the prices change
* [12:44] Gigs Taggart: Rob: I've confirmed it with testing and also mercia says she asked concierge
* [12:44] Michael McLuhan: group of items you rez gets one price set on them instead of the individual prices they had when collected.
* [12:45] Daedalus Young: coalesced object bug
* [12:45] Gigs Taggart: if we could stick to the agenda
* [12:45] Gigs Taggart: we have a lot to get through
* [12:45] Gigs Taggart: and time is runnign short
* [12:45] Daedalus Young: yes, I prefer to too, I'm still confused over the alt
* [12:46] Tillie Ariantho: Yes, I saw that in a skin shop too.
* [12:46] Gigs Taggart: daedalus alts are free now... the page doesn't reflect that :P
* [12:46] Aric Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/WEB-380 is where we at
* [12:46] Daedalus Young: ok thx :)
* [12:46] Tillie Ariantho: Designer did boxes and demo boxes, took them all at once and then placed them in the shop ...
* [12:47] Tillie Ariantho: the demo boxes were all no 0L anymore but the same as the sales boxes.
* [12:47] Aric Linden: focus?
* [12:47] Rob Linden: import and assign WEB-380 to me
* [12:47] Alexa Linden: noted
* [12:47] Aric Linden: Thanks Rob
* [12:47] Aric Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-488 is next
* [12:47] Rob Linden: there's more discussion on that issue we should probably have, but I don't need to have it here in this meeting
* [12:47] Khamon Fate: So does that mean WEB-380 is resolved?
* [12:48] Daedalus Young: no
* [12:48] Alexa Linden: it's being imported
* [12:48] Tillie Ariantho: Rob is looking at it. Or having someone to look at it. .D
* [12:48] Gigs Taggart: someone that knows the gray goo code should check on MISC-488
* [12:48] Aric Linden: Let's import 488 please
* [12:48] Aric Linden: I'd like to repro it in QA
* [12:48] Alexa Linden: assign to
* [12:48] Gigs Taggart: I wonder if these people are using temp rezzers..
* [12:48] Alexa Linden: ok
* [12:48] Rob Linden: does it belong in MISC?
* [12:48] Aric Linden: to me Please Alexa
* [12:48] Daedalus Young: well I've seen Starax things rez other objects
* [12:49] Gigs Taggart: probably SVC is better on 488
* [12:49] Alexa Linden: will move to svc and import
* [12:49] Carrot: Hello,: Avatar!
* [12:49] Soft Linden: Yeah, Dominic gives a good solid repro there
* [12:50] Daedalus Young: ahh... Group perms specific
* [12:50] Daedalus Young: good one
* [12:50] Aric Linden: Here's a patch https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-3272
* [12:50] Gigs Taggart: 3272 looks similar to cards that were being put into class 0 that were modern
* [12:50] Aric Linden: yes.
* [12:51] Soft Linden: Not actually a patch - they just replaced the file. But close enough!
* [12:51] Gigs Taggart: yeah
* [12:51] Gigs Taggart: if they own the cards I'd be inclined to take their word for it
* [12:51] Soft Linden: I'd import that and pass it on to the WL guys
* [12:51] Alexa Linden: will do
* [12:51] Gigs Taggart: unless there was a specific reason
* [12:51] Nexxus Ambassador: I am confused. Does this mean the shader is NOT installed in the present version of WindLight, and to use it we must install the patch?
* [12:51] Aric Linden: I think we need to do a better job of letting people know that some cards are disabled or set to low values based on our performance expectations
* [12:51] Gigs Taggart: nexxux only certain cards had it disabled
* [12:52] Aric Linden: what platform are you on Nexxus?
* [12:52] Michael McLuhan: do any of the disabled cards support directx9?
* [12:52] Gigs Taggart: yes
* [12:52] Aric Linden: certain cards, certain os'
* [12:52] Nexxus Ambassador: How would we know? I mean, would there be a box or slider missing or greyed out?
* [12:52] Michael McLuhan: blech
* [12:52] Gigs Taggart: ATI MOBILITY RADEON 9600/9700 Series
* [12:52] Gigs Taggart: that is the one in question here
* [12:52] Michael McLuhan: those dont suck real bad
* [12:53] Seg Baphomet: I don't get environmental shaders with windlight on a Mobile Radeon 9600.
* [12:53] Rob Linden: wonders if this is a critical issue as marked
* [12:53] Seg Baphomet: It should be quite capable of it.
* [12:54] Daedalus Young: therefor it was filed as a bug, Seg ;)
* [12:54] Aric Linden: I don't think so Rob.
* [12:54] Seg Baphomet: Linux/fglrx that is.
* [12:54] Daedalus Young: and patched, so you should get it in the next release, probably
* [12:54] Aric Linden: We debated this a LOT internally
* [12:54] Aric Linden: it seemed like a reasonable trade-off
* [12:54] Tillie Ariantho: If the graphics sucks for you and you are an SL photographer, it might be critical to you? .P
* [12:54] Henri Beauchamp: 9700 are slow... but their shaders can definitely be used. Let the choice to the users via a setting ?
* [12:55] Aric Linden: Might be, but why wouldn't you get a decent card if graphics are that important to you?
* [12:55] Michael McLuhan: i can cube sit to wait for my pic on sucky lag areas if it looks good when i am done.
* [12:55] Gigs Taggart: aric these are laptops
* [12:55] Chilli Cao: i wouldnt call it critical because the affected audience is minority
* [12:55] Wyn Galbraith: Laptops don't get a lot of choice.
* [12:55] Gigs Taggart: anyway I think we should move on
* [12:55] Gigs Taggart: lots o patches little time
* [12:55] Henri Beauchamp: There are a lot of laptops with 9600/9700....
* [12:55] Tillie Ariantho: The graphics card is capable of it, so why force the person to buy a new one?
* [12:56] Rob Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-3265
* [12:56] Michael McLuhan: let them enable/disable like everyone else
* [12:56] Gigs Taggart: VWR-3265 is a pretty major UI change, but it might make sense.
* [12:56] Soft Linden: Less-pretty graphics isn't critical in any case. The WL team can take a look at it, and if they elect not to change it, someone can create a JIRA asking for an "override graphics recommendations" option
* [12:56] Gigs Taggart: I'd say to run it past RX on 3265
* [12:56] Alexa Linden: noted
* [12:56] Matthew Dowd: VWR-1549 is sort of related
* [12:57] Gigs Taggart: yeah 1549 is the same
* [12:57] Matthew Dowd: well it is different - but doing 3265 also does 1549 but not vice versa
* [12:57] Gigs Taggart: this goes back to the new communicate window not being suited to a group of user's normal way of using things
* [12:57] Henri Beauchamp: It's the old voice-UI change problem...
* [12:57] Domchi Underwood: Tabs on the left may be the problem with long group names; tabs on the bottom on the other hand mean that not many groups usually fit in the window.
* [12:57] Daedalus Young: it depends, I like to have a wide stretched IM window at the top, like the old used to be, it makes more sense to have the tabs on the bottom then
* [12:57] Aric Linden: are we ready to move on?
* [12:57] Seg Baphomet: On my Radeon 9800SE I can enable all shaders and get the same framerate.
* [12:57] Chilli Cao: can't it be made optional ?
* [12:58] Gigs Taggart: aric I think we already did :)
* [12:58] Matthew Dowd: long group names don't fit well on tabs even when horizontal
* [12:58] Seg Baphomet: If anything a 9600 is faster than a brain damaged 9800SE.
* [12:58] Domchi Underwood: agrees with Chilli. Optional would be great.
* [12:58] Daedalus Young: I vote for a lot more optionality in the UI
* [12:58] Aric Linden: sorry. i'm in the middle of directing traffic on a release while doing this
* [12:58] Matthew Dowd: btw any reason why tabs on the right isn't supported in the code?
* [12:58] Aric Linden: is sorry to multi-task but it's my life right now
* [12:58] Gigs Taggart: matthew, LL is all left-wing types :)
* [12:58] Domchi Underwood: Vertical tabs may be great if there was some feature so that names wouldn't be capped... but would be able to scroll left-right.
* [12:58] Daedalus Young: w00t
* [12:59] Aric Linden: Gigs: you're forgetting the libertarians
* [12:59] Gigs Taggart: hehe
* [12:59] Michael McLuhan: not scrolling text. thats baaaaad.
* [12:59] Gigs Taggart: libertarians are ok with tabs on the left too
* [12:59] Henri Beauchamp: provided a couple of patches for VWR-1550 and VWR-1678, whic are both related with friends list layout too
* [12:59] Daedalus Young: I think the reason it has no support is that it was never designed, thus not coded
* [12:59] Domchi Underwood: Michael, not perpetually scrolling... but being able to scroll. :)
* [12:59] Michael McLuhan: omg just do like windows and throw it in a bubble when i mouse over.
* [12:59] Matthew Dowd: that issue is later on the agenda, henri
* [12:59] Domchi Underwood: Yea, tooltips are not bad as well.
* [12:59] Henri Beauchamp: But they are closely related ;-P
* [13:00] Michael McLuhan: scrolling stuff is hard to read when you have bad eyes
* [13:00] Daedalus Young: I'd vote tooltips
* [13:00] Gigs Taggart: this conversation is kinda pointless since only LL RX can really say whether this is going in or not :)
* [13:00] Domchi Underwood: Michael, I meant scrolling like the inventory window, not like a ticker.
* [13:00] Alexa Linden: I think that's it for today
* [13:01] Aric Linden: Can we pass this to the RX team and ask them for their thoughts?
* [13:01] Alexa Linden: yup
* [13:01] Bridie Linden: nods
* [13:01] Alexa Linden: importing both and passing along
* [13:01] Domchi Underwood: agrees.
* [13:01] Aric Linden: Thanks to everyone for showing up.
* [13:01] Matthew Dowd: RX = ?
* [13:01] Alexa Linden: Thank you all!
* [13:01] Aric Linden: fabulous meeting
* [13:01] Daedalus Young: thank you too
* [13:01] Daedalus Young: Resident eXperience
* [13:01] Tillie Ariantho: Btw. is anyone else having a hard computer hang after being like 8 hours in SL and then trying to upload a texture? My WinXP just stalls completely then...
* [13:01] Squirrel Wood: Thanks for letting us help you help us all ^^
* [13:02] Aric Linden: have a swell thanksgiving, those of you who celebrate
* [13:02] Alexa Linden: I didn't this weekend, noo
* [13:02] Aric Linden: grins at squirrel
* [13:02] Domchi Underwood: Tillie, I had a crash issue yesterday right after ULing new texture.
* [13:02] Tillie Ariantho: Seems SL eats up all the memory and then when doing the upload, it wrecks.
* [13:02] Alexa Linden: thanks everyone! see you soon
* [13:02] Tillie Ariantho: I can reproduce this.
* [13:02] Aric Linden: Tillie which version are you on?
* [13:02] Alexa Linden: thanks for the carrot Squirrel ^^
* [13:02] Tillie Ariantho: Only need to be a long time online.
* [13:02] Wyn Galbraith: tHANKS FOR THE MEETING.
* [13:02] Wyn Galbraith: OOps
* [13:02] Domchi Underwood: But I don't think it was because of the memory leak. (I'm on windlight BTW)
* [13:02] Kerry Giha: Yea it has been real informative
*