WindLight/Office Hours/2007-12-06

Torley Linden: Hi hi!
Sougent Harrop: Love the Dino too...
Phli Foxchase: Hellooo
Torley Linden: Nice to see you all here alllready!
Torley Linden: *pings some groups to see who else wants t'come*
Elle Pollack: Yes, I finaly made it o.o
Ice Brodie: heh, chance happening for me, even though I have some relevent questions
Torley Linden: It's been a long time since I last saw ya inworld, Elle and Ice!
BigPapi Linden: The *scary* dino you mean. Right?
Ice Brodie: yeah, school's gotten busy ofr me, Torley
Elle Pollack: I'm inworld plenty, I just spend all my time on a build site ^.^
Sougent Harrop: Terrifying dino....
Sougent Harrop shakes in boots
BigPapi Linden: Thought so.
BigPapi Linden: :)
Aki Shichiroji: oops. Sorry Phli
BigPapi Linden: So Pastrami won't be able to make it in time. So umm. the sign needs to go bye bye.
Ice Brodie: who's gonna be the Linden firewall?
Aki Shichiroji: Hi Ice - ltns
Ice Brodie: I have been so busy x.x
Ice Brodie: hi
Aki Shichiroji: doing good though i hope? :D
BigPapi Linden: brad, torley, jeremy, etc. Shall we rock paper scissors it on irc?
Ice Brodie: been better, sadly x.x
Torley Linden: hahaha we got the light column back!
Aki Shichiroji: :(
Jeremy Linden: Heh.
Torley Linden: Where is Pastrami?
Jeremy Linden: I can take questions, but I'm not the best guy to answer most of them.
Aki Shichiroji: Ice> Here's hoping they get better then.
BigPapi Linden: Torley, check IRC.
Torley Linden: Ohh.
Torley Linden: *tabs*
Elle Pollack wrestles with Jira and grumbles at the login timeout
Torley Linden: Me too, Elle... I feel yer pain there!
Ice Brodie: it's annoying
Torley Linden: So, welcome everyone to our WindLight office hour... our Question & Answer session for your hot issues & curiosities...
Elle Pollack: And the general slowness of the JIRA system in general
Torley Linden: I'll be moderating today, so if you have a question you'd like to ask, please IM me...
BigPapi Linden: Ok .IM Questions to Torley!
Torley Linden: and I'll take questions in turn and paste them out in the open so the whole Team can have a look. =D
Ice Brodie: mn, it's really for a small group... not all of LL
Ice Brodie: er, SL... I meant
BigPapi Linden: that's right. IM questions to the holy scorpion.
Torley Linden: Hahaha
Jeremy Linden: I just realized the spotlight would screw with people right-clicking to IM.
BigPapi Linden: Hey shine the bright light back on the holy scorpion!
Torley Linden: Wow Zen looks so serene in the light column.
Aki Shichiroji: hmmm... watermelon scorpion..... /me ponders if the sting causes psychedelic effects.
BigPapi Linden: Ah.
Torley Linden: OK! First question...
Disconnected from in-world Voice Chat
Connecting to in-world Voice Chat...
Zen Linden: There is only nothingness in light
Connected
Torley Linden: Zante Zapedzki: will 32bit textures ever be abe to handle shiny modifiers? Zante Zapedzki: For shiny glass etc
BigPapi Linden: I assume you mean textures with an alpha channel?
Zante Zapedzki: yes
BigPapi Linden: Unfortunately not until we see a materials system.
BigPapi Linden: Shiny currently rides on top of alpha.
BigPapi Linden: Which we can only change for the shader path.
BigPapi Linden: So the fixed function renderer (non shader friendly computers)
Torley Linden: Lemme know when to paste our next question! =)
BigPapi Linden: would not be able to have both shiny and transparent.
Zante Zapedzki: thank you : ]
Torley Linden: Thanx for asking!
BigPapi Linden: :)
Torley Linden: OK, next then...
Torley Linden: Matttt Li: How would you characterize the stability of Windlight?
BigPapi Linden: Improving by the day. ;)
Zen Linden: Hmmm... not stable on vista and ati, not stable on mac, but yeah improving
Torley Linden: Performance-wise in general we've actually seen an increase in viewer FPS.
Torley Linden: We're going to keep hammering away at the crash bugs on our plate, too.
BigPapi Linden: On machines that have non-finicky drivers, I'd rate it as better than the release renderer.
Elle Pollack: I have to say that I'm fairly stable running on Vista
Torley Linden: Followup... Matttt Li: any reports of sudden crashed of client? any reports of sudden crashes of the OS?
Zen Linden: Do you have an ati card?
Zen Linden: Elle?
Elle Pollack: No, gforce 8800GTS
Torley Linden: Yes, there have been some reproducible viewer crashes, some we've already fixed.
Zen Linden: yep, that should be okay
Zen Linden: just having some problems with the vista ati drivers
Torley Linden: "Sudden crashes of the OS" — I don't believe we have any of those substantiated. In some cases they weren't WindLight-specific, and due to hardware (or other non-SL) failure.
Torley Linden: Next Q...
Torley Linden: Casius Masala: Hello, I have a build that is "underwater" that looks nice and dark in the "old" viewer, but now looks way too dark in the windlight viewer - will there be changes to the way that underwater looks?
Elle Pollack: Yeah, somehow I'm not surprised by ATI being the problem
Torley Linden: Oooh I know you know that one Zen!
Zen Linden: Casius: YES!
Zen Linden: fixed that yesterday
BigPapi Linden: It's at the point right now where most issues we're currently seeing are with bugs in the drivers themselves rather than bugs with WindLight.
Aki Shichiroji: Even a change in the default water fog setting would be nice
Zen Linden: you will have a slider for how much the fog is modified underwater
Zen Linden: and the default
Zen Linden: is much lighter underwater
Aki Shichiroji: aah
Zen Linden: with no change to how it looks above the surface
Ice Brodie: yay
Torley Linden: Two slidah! See WindLight: Default underwater fog is too thick & murky - https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-3382 for more context.
Zen Linden: may not see it in the next release, but the one after that since I only committed it yesterday
Torley Linden: =^_^=
Torley Linden: Ice Brodie: With the new system, the sun design will change, is the llGetSunDirection going to be depreciated, if not, will it give Windlight set sun direction or the old school sun direction? And either way, is there any chance of squeaking llGetRegionUptime into the LSL library?
Ice Brodie: don't know how long I've wanted a region uptime function x.X
Ice Brodie: over 3 years, I'm sure...
Zen Linden: Ice, llGetSunDirection should still work
Zen Linden: let me know if it doesn't
Torley Linden: Ice: Is that already reported on the Issue Tracker, the llGetRegionUptime? I don't see it, but it should be visible.
Torley Linden: We should at least have a record of it so we can keep track. :-)
Ice Brodie: to my knowledge it doesn't exist... unless the ammount I'm out of date is showing
Torley Linden: I know who I could ask about it in development so please feel free to enter a new issue and lemme know!
Ice Brodie: don't recall if I jiraed it
Torley Linden: Elle Pollack: At one point when LL was first staying to play with shaders (way before most of you guys, around 1.9ish), we had shiny + transparent in beta for a while - it was canned for lack of hardware compatability. Have you looked at that at all?
Ice Brodie: k
Torley Linden: *remembers when Runitai declared "TRANSPARENT SHINY" on the forums*
Torley Linden: (Historically, some of you may recall http://forums.secondlife.com/showthread.php?p=979549 last year.)
BigPapi Linden: Elle: we've looked into it, but it's currently impossible without breaking content on lower end cards.
Ice Brodie: I recall it was a problem on NVidia cards
BigPapi Linden: So you'll have to wait for a materials system to get reflective & transparent surfaces.
Torley Linden: Mmmmaterials.
BigPapi Linden: amen torley
Torley Linden: An' now...
Elle Pollack: Ditto amen
Torley Linden: Zante Zapedzki: are there any plans to allow users to disable environmental light in certain areas? So indoor lighting can seem more realistic.
BigPapi Linden: Zante: you can simulate indoor lighting already
BigPapi Linden: by tweaking windlight's settings.
Swak Lunardi: wow what is this place
Swak Lunardi: what did i stumble upon
Torley Linden: Welcome to our WindLight Office Hour, Swak! =)
BigPapi Linden: Or am I missing the gist of the question.
Zen Linden: BigPapi: i think he means by setting bounding boxes
Zante Zapedzki: yes
Swak Lunardi: this is awesome
Torley Linden: Are you familiar with WindLight? More info is here... let us enlighten you! http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Windlight
Swak Lunardi: ive never seen so many lindens in once place
Zante Zapedzki: as the time of day changes how the indoor areas look
Zen Linden: no plans for that, yet, but I hear ya.
BigPapi Linden: So. There's no real good way to do that right now.
Zante Zapedzki: alright : ]
Jeremy Linden rolls his head at the "enlighten" WindLight pun.
Torley Linden: ;)
BigPapi Linden: Adding shadows would fix this, but that's also on the queue.
Ice Brodie: it would be nice, maybe an indoor category for materials?
Torley Linden: Aki Shichiroji: Hi Torley - I've noticed some alpha channel issues with the latest FL - for some reason sometimes the client ignores alpha channels on textures completely, leaving the client to render the full un-masked background as well. It tends to fix itself on relog, but creeps back every few hours or so. Is this something to do with my video card? or something else?
BigPapi Linden: Aki, does camera proximity change it?
Aki Shichiroji: no
Torley Linden: Hmmm I haven't seen this yet myself... but it's hard to reproduce it and make it happen at will, Aki?
BigPapi Linden: AKA is it an LOD issue?
Zen Linden: Aki, what's your hardware configuration?
Aki Shichiroji: it's happened on alphaed textures that are far away as well as those that are close.
Jeremy Linden: I see this sometimes... my glasses go opaque at cetain LOD.
BigPapi Linden: Make sure you jira it with screenshots and details on your hw configuration.
Aki Shichiroji: I am running a PPC Powerbook, 1.67Ghz, ATI Radeon 9600 XT
Aki Shichiroji: i can't screenshot :P but that's another issue
BigPapi Linden: We really do go by jira. If it's not there it usually isn't visible to us.
Torley Linden: Aki, why can't you screenshot, out of curiosity?
Aki Shichiroji: WL commits seppuku if i try :P
Daedalus Young: cmd-shift-3 should still work for screenshots
Zen Linden: I'm betting it crashes. :p
Zen Linden: yep
Aki Shichiroji: i will try to use some external screencapping software and upload if possible
Brad Linden: the next release should have screenshot crash fixes in it
Aki Shichiroji: Brad> yaaaay
Torley Linden: Ah yes if you could please use an external utility as a workaround, that'd be sweet.
Swak Lunardi: Hey!
Torley Linden: Oooh...
Torley Linden: Daedalus Young: Question: will we get a preview for normal maps in the image upload window? Right now it's a bit guessing if the waves won't look 'inside out'. Thanks :)
Jeremy Linden: Alt-print screen works :-)
Swak Lunardi: shouldnt just prnt screen byitself work
Ice Brodie: Jeremy, PPC mac
Elle Pollack: Deadalus, what are you using to create normal maps?
Zen Linden: Daedalus, no plan for that just yet
Jeremy Linden: Yeah, alt-printscreen only captures the one window, though.
Daedalus Young: Elle, using Blender 3D
Swak Lunardi: oh
Daedalus Young: ok thx Zen
Torley Linden: And Elle would like to get the word out about this... :)
Torley Linden: Elle Pollack: Also, not sure how to phrase it as a question but I've started another meta-issue - VWR-3657, all Glow-related stuff. A.k.a stuff I want to plug the heck out of and/or ask the gathered public for opinions on ^.^
Aki Shichiroji: would do normal screenshots, but sometimes i'm experiencing flicker... so layers don't show up properly, or the shot turns out white. is why i always found snapshotting to be more convenient with sl.
Elle Pollack: Ahkay, Blender does support them, wasn't sure...but I was hoping it would be something more within the grasp of the unwashed masses ^.^
Torley Linden: Thanx Elle, I'll bookmark that in my special WindLight folder.
Torley Linden: *has a look*
Torley Linden: Hahaha that's a funny description.
Torley Linden: Oh that's helpful to get all the glow-y stuff under one umbrella.
Elle Pollack: (Pssst. http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-3675 - Normal maps for the Library. Vote people!)
Torley Linden: And that's the last question I have for now. Anyone have a WindLight question? Please IM m!
Torley Linden: I'll paste it and our WindLight Team will answer... live & direct, y0.
Elle Pollack: One comming...
Sascha Vandyke: Maybe use Leveller for maps
Torley Linden: I use the NVIDIA normal map Photoshop plugin on Windows.
Swak Lunardi: i have a question
Swak Lunardi: since there are always so many people getting brash kicked in welcome areas
Swak Lunardi: why not make an arena
Swak Lunardi: where people can brash kick each other for points
Torley Linden: Swak, you should bring that up with our Governance Team.
Elle Pollack: Leveler?
Torley Linden: They have office hours too... daily I believe.
Torley Linden: We do have some combat zones that people can kick each other's asses in too, Swak. =)
Swak Lunardi: indeed
Torley Linden: Another question from Zante!
Swak Lunardi: i wish there was a special....
Torley Linden: Zante Zapedzki: Will speedtree be implemented in the near future? I remember some hesitation was exhibited over putting tree sellers out of business.
Swak Lunardi: brash kick zone
Sascha Vandyke: http://www.daylongraphics.com/products/leveller/index.htm
Zen Linden: Zante: Pastrami REALLLLLY wants to put that in
Sascha Vandyke: I inspired him to have SL support
Torley Linden: *checks out Leveller, that looks pretty elegant*
Zante Zapedzki: :]
Sascha Vandyke: yes, i mad my terrain with it
Zen Linden: And may do so sooner rather than later
Torley Linden: We had a lot of discussion recently about how the current Linden trees suck under WindLight... :(
Zen Linden: can't say when, but I just know he REALLLLY wants to
Zen Linden: (and I don't blame him)
Zante Zapedzki: great!
Swak Lunardi: whose pastrami
Zen Linden: one of the windlight project leaders
Swak Lunardi: i see
Torley Linden: And he does the recent blog posts like http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/12/04/super-cool-new-windlight-first-look-viewer/ too!
Ice Brodie: Pastrami Linden would be her full name
Swak Lunardi: word up
BigPapi Linden: Zen. I share Pastrami's unbridled passion for SpeedTree.
Torley Linden: We need a SpeedTree anthem.
Torley Linden: Matttt Li: From an an strategy standpoint, what is the approch that the team is looking at to converge Windlight and Havoc4 into the same viewer... and from a project planning standpoint, how mature is that plan to converge (concept, plan,...etc.)
Swak Lunardi: wow hottie alert
BigPapi Linden: WindLight and Havok have ZERO overlap. Which makes things much easier.
Nicki Georgia: hey guys
Zen Linden: Matttt, i'm not too worried
Zen Linden: one's strictly viewer, one's almost entirely server
Matttt Li: ah - I see
Matttt Li: thx
Torley Linden: I don't know if you've already seen the Havok4 blog posts Matttt, but they have more info on how Havok4's coming along.
Matttt Li: :-)
Swak Lunardi: Hey!
Torley Linden: E.g., http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/12/04/havok4-beta-preview-will-be-down-today-for-update/
Torley Linden: Hiya Nicki and everyone who just arrived!
Torley Linden: Elle Pollack: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-3490 - If local lighting is deminished by the sun, is there a good reason for glow effects to be stronger in the day than at night? (Per the jira, it obscures things like color tint even at low setting during the day)
Matttt Li: I didn't realize that there wasn't a client dependancy.
BigPapi Linden: Elle: that's a side effect of how glow is done on modern graphics card.
BigPapi Linden: It is an additive post process.
Swak Lunardi: lol
BigPapi Linden: Which results in it having a larger effect when it's being composited over brighter backgrounds.
Nicki Georgia: so swak. . . .what do you like to do?
BigPapi Linden: stronger effect I mean
Swak Lunardi: thought you might ask that...
Swak Lunardi: i like to go fishing while listening to darude and bobbing my head with my eyes closed
BigPapi Linden: nicki, swak. Could you actually use private chat (IMs)
Elle Pollack: I'm not a graphics tech guru (although I work with the end result plenty) but is there a way to blend it differently?
BigPapi Linden: We're trying to hold office hours right now.
Swak Lunardi: k
BigPapi Linden: thanks
Torley Linden: Anyone with a WindLight question, please IM to me and I'll get it in the queue to share with the Team so you can get yer answer... =)
BigPapi Linden: Elle: Not really unfortunately.
BigPapi Linden: You'd have to do complicated analysis of overall scene brightness which would make things very slow.
BigPapi Linden: Any simpler assumptions we could make would often times be incorrect.
Torley Linden: Good to know.
Torley Linden: Zante Zapedzki: at any point in the future will the base models be remade or have new default animations added/replaced? [13:30] Zante Zapedzki: character models*
Ice Brodie: I second that question
Elle Pollack: It will happen Soon(tm)
Zen Linden: Zante: Nothing I know of short term, unfortunately
Justinator777 Gears: that is so freakin cool
Justinator777 Gears: how do you look like that
Torley Linden: I don't know of any plans to do that in the foreeseable future, but the long-term has open possibilities. We did have an avatar puppeteering project which was unfortunately put on hold, in part due to more pressing priorities.
Ice Brodie: aww
Torley Linden: Hey Pastrami! Welcome back!
Zen Linden: that whole grid stability thing. :)
Zante Zapedzki: right :]
Daedalus Young: hi Pastrami
Torley Linden: Aye.
BigPapi Linden: Minor detail... THat grid stability... ;)
Torley Linden: And... Ice Brodie: how accessable will Windlight be to to scripters, from a check and edit standpoint?
Pastrami Linden: hello all
Torley Linden: Pastrami's back now, so please IM your questions to him and he'll be queuein' 'em! Rock tha hizzouse.
Sascha Vandyke: ohh
Pastrami Linden: I heard I missed some hot action
Zen Linden: Ice Brodie: The skies aren't scriptable yet, that will come, possibly after we make them tradable assets. We'll put some lsl hooks in then
Zen Linden: But yes, Torley and I have talked about the need for it
Torley Linden: It would be wicked to have Super Mario-like platforms you jump on and then the skies change as you ascend...
Torley Linden: =D
Ice Brodie: I'd be happy for read hooks first o.o
Torley Linden: DRAMATIC!!!!
Pastrami Linden: alrighty
Pastrami Linden: Sascha Vandyke: Hiya Torley, I just was curious if there will be a better usage of multicore cpus for graphics, i already run multiple threads, but the gain in fps is not much. I also would like to know if my screen resolution 16x10 - 2560x1560 will be supported better - I had a jira for opening screen, was closed because of we need more info, still doesn't scale.
Sascha Vandyke: yes, gain is now only 2 fps, lol
Sascha Vandyke: i am running ultra
Pastrami Linden: Sascha I don't anticipate multicore CPUs to enhance graphics any time soon, unfortunately
Sascha Vandyke: oki
BigPapi Linden: As much as we'd like to.
Pastrami Linden: now, as far as screen res
Pastrami Linden: what do you eman :supported better"?
Pastrami Linden: ^mean
BigPapi Linden: Would require a larger rewrite of the engine than we're willing to do right now.
Sascha Vandyke: first the opening screnn doesn't scale to this res and then the viewer doesn't recognize the aspect ratio on first try, only if i go to prefs again, then i get 8x5
Sascha Vandyke: before 4x3, lol
Pastrami Linden: gotchya
Pastrami Linden: well, I'd say this-
Torley Linden: That's a pretty big resolution!
Pastrami Linden: we probbaly view something like that as a bug,
Sascha Vandyke: hehe yes, but pretty nice
Pastrami Linden: but a minor one right now :\
Sascha Vandyke: i know
Ice Brodie: couldn't hurt to Jira it
Torley Linden: Sascha, outta curiosity, what's the Issue Tracker #? I can ask our internal triage to check it out.
Pastrami Linden: so in all honesty, probablt not going to be looked at for a bit
Sascha Vandyke: i had it in jira, was closed because more info needed
Sascha Vandyke: what info, lol
Torley Linden: I may know when I see it. :-)
Pastrami Linden: Sascha I'm going to move on - let us know when you get the ticket
Ice Brodie: if it's closed, it's still on Jira
Pastrami Linden: /jira
Sascha Vandyke: oki
Pastrami Linden: Zante Zapedzki: Can you comment on the current state of SpeedTree! :D
Pastrami Linden: Sure!
Pastrami Linden: We like it
Pastrami Linden: a LOT
Pastrami Linden: :)
Pastrami Linden: it's planned
Zante Zapedzki: :D
Pastrami Linden: believe me
BigPapi Linden: Sexy time.
Pastrami Linden: sooner than you might think
Pastrami Linden: and I go silent
Pastrami Linden: :)
Zante Zapedzki: :[
Pastrami Linden: let the press run wild
Matttt Li: what is it? (link?)
Pastrami Linden: ;)
Pastrami Linden: www.speedtree.com
Matttt Li: thx
BigPapi Linden: Depends if they think: "um right now"... ;)
Ice Brodie: speedtree'll be great
Pastrami Linden: the bullet-in-the-head to our POS trees
blogHUD Messenger: Your image post has arrived at blogHUD.com []: see http://bloghud.com/id/15981 
Zante Zapedzki: burn them!
Pastrami Linden: haha, indeed
Torley Linden: SpeedTree will make the current Linden trees look like crap... wait, they already do! OK, they'll look even more crappy then.
BigPapi Linden: They way as much as a duck.
Ice Brodie: they already do...
BigPapi Linden: arrr. weigh
Pastrami Linden: just to clarify, we're not springing SpeedTree on you as a holiday susprise next week or anything *that* short term-
Daedalus Young: therefor they're witches!
Jeremy Linden docks BigPapi for grammar points.
Ice Brodie: aww
Zante Zapedzki: rgr :)
Pastrami Linden: we're busy as heck with WL right now
Pastrami Linden: but rest assured
Pastrami Linden: we like it
Pastrami Linden: A LOT
Pastrami Linden: ;)
Torley Linden: The work we do today will pave the path for tomorrow!
Zante Zapedzki: any screens of it in SL yet? ^^
BigPapi Linden: Zante: Nope
Pastrami Linden: oh I have a whole 4 hour movie
Torley Linden: I remember seeing screenshots of WindLight before it was in SL... and movies too... and I was like *drool*
Pastrami Linden: in fact 50% of our usersa have it in a secret client!!
Pastrami Linden: no no, just kidding
Pastrami Linden: don't go quoting me, blogsters
BigPapi Linden: lol
Torley Linden: The artistic excellence these guys have, phenomenal!
Pastrami Linden: :)
Torley Linden: Har har har.
Zante Zapedzki: :p
Ice Brodie: careful there, Pastrami, someone'll think you're serious...
Pastrami Linden: I know Ice
Elle Pollack looks around warily for pitchforks
Pastrami Linden: to reiteerate
Pastrami Linden: reiterate
Pastrami Linden: SpeedTree is NOT currently available ;)
Pastrami Linden: but we like ti and have plans, fairly soon
Pastrami Linden: Elle Pollack: Currently when you create a Windlight preset the time of day you assign to it is static - is there a way to create a whole daycycle, or such a way in the works?
Pastrami Linden: Elle, have you used the Day Cycle Editor?
BigPapi Linden: It does just that.
Ice Brodie: mn, a 24 hour day would be nice
BigPapi Linden: You can do that right now.
Torley Linden: In the Advanced Sky Editor in the upper-right, there's a Day Cycle Editor button. And you can set how long it takes to elapse.
Elle Pollack: Oh! *That* button....
Jeremy Linden runs to get the KB article.
Zen Linden: It works only locally on your machine, but yeah, you can setup a 24 hour day
Pastrami Linden: yeah guys this is all already integrated
Torley Linden: Jeremy did the full shebang of instructions on it! =)
Elle Pollack: If it was Torley it would have stung me
Torley Linden: Me's a friendly scooorpion. Scorpion + Torley = Scorley.
Jeremy Linden: https://secondlife.com/community/support.php?questionID=4763
Ice Brodie: I think I'd go loopy in a normal day in SL... 3 and a half years of 4 hour days :P
Elle Pollack: Instead of venom, you squirt watermellon juice?
Pastrami Linden: LOL at Scorley
Ice Brodie: he prolly does, Elle
Pastrami Linden: Elle Pollack: Another Q, per http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-3171 - as a compromize for people who want to have local light stronger than sunlight, might it be possible to doubble the possible intensity range of local light and have the current max become the middle?
Torley Linden: Hehehehe.
Sougent Harrop grumbles about having to log int kb....
BigPapi Linden: He's already poisoned 7 residents today, don't tempt him.
Pastrami Linden: Elle, a good question-
Jeremy Linden: I know, Sougent. We're working on it :-)
Ice Brodie: good griefer deterent
Pastrami Linden: Papi, have we considered putting the local light intensity on a slider?
Pastrami Linden: might make sense
Pastrami Linden: discos would look awesome - sky goes dark, lights go bright, and vice versa, to the ebat of the music
Ice Brodie: oh, light intensity would be nice that way
BigPapi Linden: I'm hesitant to do that.
Pastrami Linden: ^beat
Torley Linden: Oh that would be a trip!
Torley Linden: @_@
Daedalus Young: oh wow, just testing out Sky Detail slider, gives me 8 more fps!
Ice Brodie: BigPapi: try it on an internal test build?
BigPapi Linden: Needs tweaking (what we have now) and any affect can already be done with what's already there. Would result in a lot of false bug reports.
Jeremy Linden wonders if it's possible to get a music beat using the day cycle editor now.
Torley Linden: Sweet, Daed.
Torley Linden: CYMATICS IS FULL OF WIN!
Ice Brodie: Jeremy: why do you think I want LSL controls :P
Jeremy Linden: I'm right there with you!
Ice Brodie: XD
Pastrami Linden: alright, question cue is empty- anyone else?
Elle Pollack: Well back to the actual question...there are certian effects where it might be desireable to have stronger light
Pastrami Linden: just IM me
Elle Pollack: Regardless of how it's controlled ^.^
BigPapi Linden: Right now it's not strong enough during daylight.
BigPapi Linden: So that will change a bit.
BigPapi Linden: I'll experiment internally, but I hesitate to add anything that will create large content complications.
Elle Pollack: I agree that the sun ought to trump most local lights, mind
Ice Brodie: I think some times you may want a different look with lighting, I can understand concerns for the slider though, just... still worth checking, it'd help calibration too
Torley Linden: Misc. Q, has anyone else noticed name tags disappearing when they're not supposed to (e.g., you set them to Always Show)? I don't have an easy way to make it happen but I've noticed it in WindLight on occasion.
Aki Shichiroji: Torley> yes, but i don't think it's exclusive to WL
Elle Pollack: Not I
Chaos Bikcin: hi its my first time at one of these meetings,
Ice Brodie: non-WL no
Torley Linden: I'll eventually enter it on the Issue Tracker if it's still a prob in the future... just sheerly curious. I haven't seen it in the recent main viewer, Aki... not yet at least...
Torley Linden: Welcome aboard Chaos!
Jeremy Linden: I haven't had nametags disappear, but I've seen them turn shiny occasionally in WindLight.
Ice Brodie: Torley, I'd say post an intermitent and see what comes from it?
Torley Linden: You'll be happy to know that Windlight Team very much liked some of the earlier shots taken at Felonhall City... =o)
Torley Linden: Ice: Aye! Great idea.
Ice Brodie: (Jira needs a 'more info needed please' category, rather than closing)
Aki Shichiroji: Torley> with the latest viewer... once, perhaps twice. But it may just have been because there were too many people in the same area at the time. Tracking nametag positions while they're all dancing can be an issue too
Chaos Bikcin: is there any talk of including shadows any time soon?
Torley Linden: Aki: Hmmm... thanks.
Elle Pollack: Who else has noticed that voice dots viewed through glow causes them to render their alpha wrong? (see lightbulb over my head for example)
Torley Linden: Ice: Yeah I think it should be an intermediate issue stage instead of a final-sounding one... same thing for "fixed internally but not available to public yet...", that causes confusion.
BigPapi Linden: Shadows: yes, but not right now.
Torley Linden: I've seen something like that... name tags with glow in the background...
Ice Brodie: yes, they both need adding :P
nik385 Doesburg: I've noticed that particles/alpha seen through glow is odd.
Daedalus Young: I've seen floating text and nametags affected by glow, Elle
Chaos Bikcin: ah ok
BigPapi Linden: Arbitrary user generated content makes most normal shadowing solutions die a painful death.
Torley Linden: What Daedalus said.
Lex Mars: Wow, took me 10 minutes just to teleport here.
Torley Linden: Lex, glad you made it.
Chaos Bikcin: what about global hardware shadowing
BigPapi Linden: Same thing.
Elle Pollack: I haven't noticed with nametags...floating text maybe
BigPapi Linden: We have plans for shadowing but they won't see the light of day for a bit.
Lex Mars: 1.3fps
Chaos Bikcin: aww ok,lol
Pastrami Linden: har har BigPapi
Aki Shichiroji: the plans for shadowing... are shadowed.
BigPapi Linden: exactly. ;)
Pastrami Linden: Marianne McCann: WL question: Has there been any movement on the issues with snapshots crashing and other problems, especially with macintosh users?
Zen Linden runs big papi through
Pastrami Linden: Marianne, those are fixed
Torley Linden: Oh good news on that one Mari!
Pastrami Linden: re: snapshot problems
Torley Linden: I posted a comment before the office hour started there.
Marianne McCann: Ne3xt release, I hope?
Pastrami Linden: macs have a myriad of other problems but we're nailing them one at a time
Pastrami Linden: yes Marianne
Aki Shichiroji: Does that include the issue with Windlight not closing due to snapshots not working?
Pastrami Linden: I believe so, Aki
Torley Linden: Snapshots sure are important to you, I know, Mari!
Aki Shichiroji: ok
Pastrami Linden: lilly Margetts: a quick question, theres some Eta on when there could be a viewer allowing for estate-wide settings, like the old linden sun settings?
Marianne McCann: Very! Had to shift gears on a show dat opened on Wednesday cuz of it
Pastrami Linden: not before Q1 08, at the earliset
lilly Margetts: i see
Pastrami Linden: but it is planned enxt, yes
Pastrami Linden: next
Torley Linden: lilly, part of that is detailed further on our info-page... http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Torley_Linden/FAQ
Torley Linden: Oops wrong URL.
Torley Linden: Dangit.
Chaos Bikcin: darn gotta go allready
Pastrami Linden: thanks Scorley
Torley Linden: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Windlight
Torley Linden: Haha.
Chaos Bikcin: when is the next meeting?
Pastrami Linden: Tuesday at 8:00am PST
Torley Linden: Meeting times are on that page too, Chaos! Next Tuesday.
Chaos Bikcin: ok
Torley Linden: Same location, same us!
Pastrami Linden: Elle Pollack: Are you brave enough to venture an estimate on when WL will be ready for the main viewer?
Pastrami Linden: sure-
Pastrami Linden: after tomorrow
Jeremy Linden: Don't forget Documentation Office Hours tomorrow at 2pm, in Beaumont!
Pastrami Linden: before 2009
Pastrami Linden: :)
Elle Pollack: Pffft ^.^
Torley Linden: Jeremy wrote the WindLight documentation so feel free to ask him further about it if you have Q's!
Jeremy Linden: Just in case anyone wants to speak their minds (or ask questions) about the Knowledge Base.
Pastrami Linden: no, in all seriousness-
Torley Linden: Hahahaha.
Zante Zapedzki: :)
Pastrami Linden: we're fairly close
Pastrami Linden: the number of unique bugs getting reported has dwindled to alomost nothing-
Pastrami Linden: avg framerates are faster than the normal viewer by a hair
Mills Gullwing: Pastrami your avatar rocks
Pastrami Linden: and crash rates are at or lower than main viewer
Pastrami Linden: thanks!
Torley Linden: *remembers good times of when Pastrami first ventured into this avatar form* =)
Torley Linden: Hey nik385! Good to see you inworld. :)
Pastrami Linden: hehe
Pastrami Linden: Lex Mars: Since I'm late to the party, I'm not sure if this has been answered already. Is the issue of spening 50% of frame time in skinned avatars (according to fast timers) actually normal. Or is this a symptom of the overall mac client issue?
Pastrami Linden: guys?
nik385 Doesburg: Hiya Torley! I've been wanting to meet you :P
nik385 Doesburg: I've been working on more RL versions of SL objects.
Torley Linden: And for anyone who missed the early part of this Office Hour, I'll be posting transcripts on the WindLight wiki page.
Torley Linden: I'm not familiar with that issue, Lex... hrmmm.
Lex Mars: I've posted it on JIRA.
Torley Linden: Does that happen only in WindLight or the main viewer too, Lex?
Lex Mars: WIndLIght
nik385 Doesburg: I plan on heading to SLRR at some point with the RL Multi Gadget, RL Wet Ikon (under construction), and the RL NameTag. >.>
Torley Linden: K... what's the #? I'll bookmark it.
Zen Linden: lex, try turning off hardware skinning
Torley Linden: nik385: Sounds like you're all set for happy trails.
Lex Mars: I run with it off.
BigPapi Linden: Mac drivers have had issues with hardware skinning in the past, so probably.
Lex Mars: As avatars turn black.
Lex Mars: If I have it on.
nik385 Doesburg: Oh absolutely, I love making SL things into real life.
BigPapi Linden: NICE fire plant!!!
Mills Gullwing: heh
nik385 Doesburg: Sure they don't work, but they're fun to have.
Pastrami Linden: yeah awesome av!
Torley Linden: Haha where is Mario!?
Lex Mars: I'm working on getting that JIRA#...
Pastrami Linden: I'll kill it!!!!
Mills Gullwing: GAH!!!
Zante Zapedzki: :p
Lex Mars: my poor machine is crying right now
Mills Gullwing: ekk
Ice Brodie: lol
Zante Zapedzki: haha
Lex Mars: VWR-3457
BigPapi Linden: go kirby go!
Ice Brodie: only in SL...
Torley Linden: Thanks Lex, and sucks to hear that.
BigPapi Linden: use the frying pan
Torley Linden: *watches Pastrami chase around Mills*
Torley Linden: COOK IT! EAT IT!
Torley Linden: PLENTY OF FOOD! LIKE A WHALE! SORTA!
Lex Mars: after 10.5, the main branch client tripled in fps for me...
Elle Pollack plays Super Smash Brothers music
nik385 Doesburg: Whales are endangered.
Lex Mars: but windlight averages around 7fps now :(
Mills Gullwing: yeah soon
nik385 Doesburg: And flammable :D
Pastrami Linden: lol, nice Mills
Ice Brodie: fire plants aren't
Ice Brodie: that was awsome
Zen Linden: Lex, is this in leopard or tiger?
Lex Mars: 10.5
Cyan Linden: Booting...
BigPapi Linden: Lex: what graphics card?
Zen Linden: k. Runitai is looking at speeding up 10.5 right now
Torley Linden: Lex posted his details in that issue: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-3457
BigPapi Linden: Leopard has serious issues with shaders btw.
Lex Mars: yeah
Pastrami Linden: Elle Pollack: In the regular viewer when you enter av appearance editing, your AV becomes "full bright" for visibility...I don't think that's so in the WL viewer (but I haven't gotten around to posting a JIRA for it). Easy to fix?
Sougent Harrop: Me and my unsupported Intel graphics are seeing a decrease in FPS in both Windliight and the regular viewer, but I'm gratified that Windlight actually works pretty well with it.
Lex Mars: i posted the full details from the help window
Torley Linden: Elle I may have posted a bug about that...
Pastrami Linden: hmm - anyone know answer to Elle's question
Jeroen Ra is still happy with WL on ubuntu
Torley Linden: *checks*
BigPapi Linden: Lex: That a Macbook Pro?
Lex Mars: what's crazy is that even if i turn off every item in rendering types, it still runs horribly
Lex Mars: yes, 17"
Lex Mars: turning off characters, and there's no difference in fps
BigPapi Linden: Yeah, lex, the driver is freaking out over many things right now.
Zen Linden: Lex: runitai was lamenting this fact yesterday. he was getting 30fps with nothing on the screen iirc
Lex Mars: it still spends nearly half the time in skinned
Torley Linden: Ahhh yeah Elle I reported that bug internally... DEV-4934
BigPapi Linden: We've made apple aware of this and are in communications with them.
Lex Mars: i so wish i could get 30fps
Torley Linden: It's not on the public Issue Tracker, I'll add it there too.
Lex Mars: i'm at 1.9 right now
BigPapi Linden: Even at low?
Elle Pollack refrains boasting about her framerates. It's more difficult than you might think.
Torley Linden: It's a related sort of issue, anyway... I noticed that attachments are too dark...
Aki Shichiroji: try .4 :D
BigPapi Linden: in the graphics settings?
Aki Shichiroji: oop. it's popped back up, nm
Elle Pollack: Torley, Kk, I'll stick a vote in when you do ^.^
nik385 Doesburg: I'm at around 19 FPS right now.
Torley Linden: =)
Torley Linden: Thanx Elle and thanx a LOT for helping out with the Meta-Issues!
Lex Mars: ok, i switched to "low"...
Lex Mars: 5.5fps
Lex Mars: i was at "Insane" before
Elle Pollack: Doh. That wasn't the right key...
Torley Linden: Mills, your avatar... HEAT MAN from MEGA MAN II!
Aki Shichiroji: Lex> are you running atmospheric shaders?
BigPapi Linden: LOL. Yeah, leopard can't currently handle insane.
Zen Linden: w00t! BLAZINGLY fast. Try "Ludicrous" next time
Lex Mars: right now, i'm running *nothing*
Lex Mars: i switched to the auto-settings
Jeroen Ra: Is there some way of getting antialias under linux? under windows it's all aliased
Lex Mars: and slid it to low
Lex Mars: and i'm at 5.4fps
BigPapi Linden: Check the custom settings checkbox and make sure you don't have hw skinning enabled.
Elle Pollack: Aaaw, only 10fps with all the people
Lex Mars: it's not even checkable
BigPapi Linden: Hell you may need to disable shaders (if they aren't already)
Lex Mars: everything is off
Lex Mars: i'm in a tiny, flat world
Lex Mars: at 5.3fps
Aki Shichiroji: this is the portrait of most mac users :P
Zante Zapedzki: haha
Pastrami Linden: yeah, we know :\
Pastrami Linden: it sucks because Apple
Pastrami Linden: 's graphics drivers have been sucky
Zen Linden has faith in runitai graphics fu... we'll see what he comes up with
Lex Mars: 262ms of 377ms frame time is being spent in "Skinned"
BigPapi Linden: That's weird Lex. I'm running a mac with similar hardware, but I get much better performance than that (even in Leopard)
BigPapi Linden: Can you enable impostors?
Lex Mars: it's already enabled
Lex Mars: when i switched the setting to low, it turned it on
BigPapi Linden: What's the avatar detail slider set to (push it to the left).
Lex Mars: Mid
Jeremy Linden is starting to think a screenshot would help a lot.
BigPapi Linden: push it to the limit
BigPapi Linden: left that is
Lex Mars: i've set everyting all the way down
Lex Mars: no change
blogHUD Messenger: Your image post has arrived at blogHUD.com []: see http://bloghud.com/id/15982 
Zen Linden: alright folks, time to bang on things in vista for me
Lex Mars: everyone is an imposter
BigPapi Linden: Don't know then.
Pastrami Linden: Lex, try closing the screen and "imagining" a second life experience- better fps? ;)
BigPapi Linden: Thanks for filling the bug though.
Torley Linden: Thanks each and everyone for coming to our WindLight Office Hour.
Torley Linden: nik385, shades of Blue Linden!
Lex Mars: hehe
Pastrami Linden: :)
Pastrami Linden: it's the only step left
Elle Pollack: I can't tell the difference between when I'm looking at an imposter and a fully-rendered AV. That's a good thing?
Pastrami Linden: oh yeah
Jeremy Linden: A very good thing!
Pastrami Linden: ;)
Torley Linden: It is, Elle. That's the ideal.
nik385 Doesburg: I'm a big fan of a Blue. :P
Lex Mars: I just hope I can help you guys find the cause.
Pastrami Linden: nik385 Doesburg: Any idea on when Full 3d volumetric clouds will be coming out?
Elle Pollack: Though by conceuqnce, I can't tell if it's working either
Pastrami Linden: not sure nik, but for those who aren't aware of the tech:
BigPapi Linden: Elle, push the avatar detail slider all the way left.
nik385 Doesburg: I can't wait till we can fly through those things.
Lex Mars: I'm more than willing to be a test base for whatever crazy ideas you come up with.
Pastrami Linden: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pLfHDul5XGw
Pastrami Linden: one of our babies
Torley Linden: Haha Pastrami you had that hawt link SOOO ready.
nik385 Doesburg: Nimble technology.
BigPapi Linden: That'll force every avatar other than yourself to be an impostor.
Torley Linden: Glad you've been reading up on it, nik385!
Elle Pollack: Ah. The movement is the giveaway.
nik385 Doesburg: >.>
Pastrami Linden: hahahhaah
Aki Shichiroji: ....argh. am noticing a bit of camera bounciness - it's not focusing on the point i want to focus, and sometimes goes completely in the other direction... Lex, i know you experienced this, and mentioned it was as yet unreproduced... but that was a few weeks ago... anyone know why the client might be doing this?
Elle Pollack slides it all the way back to the right :)
Pastrami Linden: Mills your avs are great
Lex Mars: ok
Lex Mars: turning off VBO
snaibi Meili: hi people
Lex Mars: i shot up to 15fps
Mills Gullwing: the plant and heatman are the only ones I've made XP
snaibi Meili: hi pastrami
Sougent Harrop: I've seen that too Aki...
Torley Linden: *waves to Coco in the sky*
Sougent Harrop: The camera has a mind of it's own in WL.
Aki Shichiroji: it's aggrevating when one needs to content create and can't actually focus on what they're creating
Pastrami Linden: Lex, try turning a bunch back on but now with VBO disabled
Lex Mars: i switched to "mid"
Lex Mars: and am at 7fps
Pastrami Linden: hmph
Lex Mars: on the preset slider
Pastrami Linden: well, hang tight - at least you can get it *runable* now
Pastrami Linden: :)
Lex Mars: yeah... i rather run in a pretty slideshow than this horribly crippled :P
Marianne McCann says quietly, "gotta run.. thankoo guys!"
Aki Shichiroji: See you Marianne
nik385 Doesburg: See ya.
BigPapi Linden: Later everyone. Thanks for stopping by our office hours.
BigPapi Linden: See you next Tuesday.
nik385 Doesburg: See ya.
Pastrami Linden: later guys!
Aki Shichiroji: Thanks for holding them
Zante Zapedzki: thanks : )
nik385 Doesburg: I was down near the boston office last week
Torley Linden: Thanx each and everyone! Take care and our appreciation for using and helping us better WindLight!
Lex Mars: Cya.
Brad Linden: later all!
Torley Linden: Bye for now! =^_^=
nik385 Doesburg: Shoulda popped by.
Jeremy Linden: And *I'll* see you on Friday, if you come to Documentation Office Hours! ;-)
Lex Mars still hopes and prays for more local lights.
nik385 Doesburg: I can't wait for Nimble.