User Experience Interest Group/Transcripts/2009-07-16

== Topic & Summary ==
User Experience Interest Group Discussion for July 16, 2009.
Topic: Misc. UI Bugs.
Open topic. We discussed several UI bugs that were affecting people:
* - Improved fonts.xml selection for Chinese, Korean, Japanese in 1.23 (trunk) viewer
* - Viewer crashes immediately on changing screen mode (Linux)
* - Viewer crashes immediately on altering Prefs->UI Size and pressing Apply (Linux)
* - Menu and avatar name tag offsets wrong on right side of screen/window - UI scale factor calculation fail.
== Transcript ==
[15:02]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Anyway, before heading to the bath and today's UXIG starts, http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-12717
[15:02]	Geneko Nemeth: 	And something that looks like a Digimon but has a really off color. :p
[15:06]	Jacek Antonelli: 	How's everyone doing today?
[15:06]	Charlette Proto: 	good thanks jacek
[15:07]	Shadow Pidgeon: 	just ducky thanks... and you?
[15:07]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I'm kinda stressed and busy, but otherwise okay
[15:07]	Charlette Proto: 	is the international fonts support our topic today?
[15:08]	Armin Weatherwax: 	ö
[15:08]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Open topic today, so it could be. Want to talk about that?
[15:09]	Charlette Proto: 	I was just reading the JIRA, but for me it is all greek, I use english myself
[15:09]	Charlette Proto: 	sure Geneko would have more to contribute
[15:11]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I just want someone to make a patch and test it before I actually have the time to do so...
[15:12]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Before 1.23, CJK language speaking residents suffer from inconsistant fonts in the interface. Now they are merely suffering from seeing a font that isn't suitable for their language.
[15:12]	Geneko Nemeth: 	(A consistant font, I mean.)
[15:13]	Charlette Proto: 	I suppose thefont change in Imprudence has some related issues, but I would be more interested in user based font choices etc
[15:13]	Geneko Nemeth: 	But this is in the department of Sane Defaults!
[15:13]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Which kinda implies the previous config was, and it really was, Insane.
[15:13]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe true, sane being the operative term
[15:14]	Geneko Nemeth: 	The files I uploaded is going to end this once for all.
[15:14]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hey Aimee :)
[15:14]	Aimee Trescothick: 	hey :)
[15:14]	Charlette Proto: 	hi Aimee
[15:14]	Armin Weatherwax: 	Hi Aimee
[15:14]	Shadow Pidgeon: 	hello
[15:15]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Geneko: What do your changes do?
[15:15]	Morgaine Dinova waves quietly 	Morgaine Dinova waves quietly
[15:15]	Jacek Antonelli waves to Morgaine 	Jacek Antonelli waves to Morgaine
[15:15]	Aimee Trescothick mexican waves back 	Aimee Trescothick mexican waves back
[15:16]	Armin Weatherwax: 	Hi Morgaine
[15:16]	Charlette Proto: 	Aimee I'm quite impressed with the minimap changes in Snowglobe (would like a lot more) if i understand correctly this is your area/effort
[15:16]	Shadow Pidgeon smiles and nods 	Shadow Pidgeon smiles and nods
[15:16]	Aimee Trescothick: 	:) yes, thanks :)
[15:16]	Charlette Proto: 	hi Morgaine
[15:16]	Jacek Antonelli: 	We are talking a bit about a font issue for CJK-language users. http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-12717
[15:16]	Armin Weatherwax: 	the panning is great
[15:18]	Charlette Proto: 	and the map zoom seems to have good performance besides making it more practical for finding the right avie dot
[15:20]	Charlette Proto: 	re. fonts I guess there isn't any major changes in the way fonts are integrated in the UI since some of the problems remain in 1.23.4 eg wavy lines that some vid drivers (ATI) suffer
[15:21]	Armin Weatherwax: 	think the wavy fonts is a problem of ati's driver
[15:21]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Since the subject is fonts, gonna try to repro in Imprudence the front-related crash bug I found in 1.23.4 and Snowglobe -- https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-14301 and https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-14302
[15:22]	Charlette Proto: 	I was thinking the same thing Armin since I haven't heard of this ever in context of Nvidia
[15:23]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Woohoo, Imprudence doesn't suffer from 14302
[15:23]	Armin Weatherwax: 	and it happens on mac, win and linux
[15:26]	Jacek Antonelli waves to Squirrel 	Jacek Antonelli waves to Squirrel
[15:26]	Squirrel Wood: 	Hellos
[15:26]	Shadow Pidgeon: 	hiya
[15:26]	Armin Weatherwax: 	hi :)
[15:27]	Charlette Proto: 	hi squirrel
[15:27]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Woohoo, Imprudence doesn't suffer from 14301 either ... however, it doesn't display the fullscreen right. It doesn't seem to cope with 1920x1200.
[15:27]	Morgaine Dinova: 	But at least it doesn't crash like 1.23.4 and Snowglobe
[15:28]	Charlette Proto: 	this font related crashing is also in 1.23.4?
[15:28]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yeah
[15:28]	Armin Weatherwax: 	btw sorry morgaine for my red herring at VWR-14301 - it was just like read -try - crash
[15:28]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Q says it's related to the change of font system to Unicode
[15:28]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Armin: hehe
[15:29]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Maybe Imprudence hasn't gone over to that font system yet
[15:29]	Squirrel Wood: 	Any of you suffering from http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5EL37_pzCI&hd=1 ?
[15:29]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Lindens do seem to agree that they hacked that Unicode handling though.
[15:30]	Charlette Proto: 	the Unicode has created a few weird problems, I've heard of people unable to log in when international characters are used in group tags, but really can't understand how this would happen
[15:32]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Nice HD video Squirrel. I tried to cam into it
[15:32]	Squirrel Wood: 	^^
[15:32]	Shadow Pidgeon: 	hehe
[15:33]	Charlette Proto: 	Squirrel?? what did you mean?
[15:33]	Squirrel Wood: 	the name tags and menus
[15:33]	Armin Weatherwax: 	ah. btw of video: anyone knows how to get the mousepointer captured when capturing on linux (yukon)?
[15:34]	Shadow Pidgeon: 	dinner time for me... bye for now
[15:34]	Charlette Proto: 	bye Shad, see you at 5pm
[15:34]	Charlette Proto: 	if you come
[15:34]	Squirrel Wood: 	I would assume that is something the screen capturing software used needs to support
[15:35]	Charlette Proto: 	agrees
[15:35]	Charlette Proto: 	most training vids require the pointer included so I'm sure the problem would be noticed by other users
[15:36]	Armin Weatherwax: 	yukon captures gl - isn't the pointer rendered by gl, too ?
[15:36]	Squirrel Wood: 	mouse pointers are special
[15:36]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Squirrel, do you mean that the text is not exactly centred in its box?
[15:37]	Squirrel Wood: 	No
[15:38]	Squirrel Wood: 	the menus are offset as well as the avatar tags.
[15:38]	Squirrel Wood: 	avatar tags are not above the avatars despite them being on screen. compare to the left side of the screen
[15:38]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Oh I see
[15:39]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Seems like for some reason they don't want to go too far to the right. Like they think the edge of the screen is somewhere it isn't.
[15:39]	Squirrel Wood: 	aye
[15:39]	Squirrel Wood: 	my client window is set to 1280x720
[15:40]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Isn't it perspective? The heads are further back than the centreline of the people, because they're sitting
[15:40]	Squirrel Wood: 	for machinima recording
[15:40]	Squirrel Wood: 	its not perspective
[15:40]	Squirrel Wood: 	it does it for any avatar on the right half of the screen
[15:40]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe I've only just noticed it, the tags always go left but stop about 250 pixels from right edge
[15:41]	Charlette Proto: 	so i have the same problem too
[15:41]	Squirrel Wood: 	the dropdown menus suffer from it too
[15:41]	Morgaine Dinova: 	No, it's doing it for left hand of screen too --- Wolfpup's tag is to his right, from camera PoV. So looks like perspective
[15:42]	Charlette Proto: 	yup, just moved the inventory and get the same problem too
[15:42]	Squirrel Wood: 	on the left side tags stick to the avatar up to until the av leaves the screen. at which point they stick to the left border of the window
[15:42]	Charlette Proto: 	do you have a JIRA on that Squirrel???
[15:42]	Squirrel Wood: 	not yet
[15:42]	Squirrel Wood: 	but I has the youtube
[15:43]	Jacek Antonelli: 	That's not the issue Morgaine. Look at Techwolf's tag when he's on the right side of the screen -- it isn't even close to his head, even though there's plenty of room.
[15:43]	Morgaine Dinova: 	They don't stick to the av on the left --- they're to the av's right. Only Mythoes' tag is in the right place, because he's in the middle. It's perspective
[15:43]	Charlette Proto: 	post it in the group chat when you do it (if the IM works that is)
[15:44]	Jacek Antonelli: 	And at 0:08, you can see how the tags are all lined up on the right, like they thing that's where the edge is
[15:44]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek: yes, I agree with Tech's, the labels don't want to travel that far. But it's perspective other than that.
[15:44]	Charlette Proto: 	yes there is a margin of unused screen on the right
[15:44]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Mythoes is the only one with a correctly positioned tag, because he's in the middle, so no perspective delta.
[15:44]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Morgaine: is it perspective with the menus in the 2D UI, then, too? ;)
[15:45]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek: I haven't yet seen an offset in the menu, still looking
[15:45]	Charlette Proto: 	the screen width variable defining the maximum hor position must be buggy
[15:45]	Squirrel Wood: 	it does not happen to everyone
[15:45]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Morgaine: 0:51
[15:46]	Charlette Proto: 	Morg move Inventory to the right and open a manu
[15:46]	Morgaine Dinova: 	OK, stopped it at 0:51, zooming in
[15:47]	Jacek Antonelli: 	You shouldn't need to zoom in, it's pretty obvious -- the menu isn't even attached to the window it's from anymore, it's floating off to the side
[15:47]	Charlette Proto: 	I get both probs on my system, don't need to look at the vid again
[15:48]	Charlette Proto: 	post the JIRA on UXIG IM when ready Squirrel
[15:49]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I must be looking for the wrong thing. Got it zoomed large, and still can't see the problem, unless it's the position of the text in the label area which is just 2-4 pixels off.
[15:49]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Okay everyone, I'm off to Changsha, see you there.
[15:49]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Cya Gen
[15:49]	Charlette Proto: 	byee Geneko
[15:50]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Morgaine: It's the bloody sort menu isn't even attached to the window, is the problem ;P See where it says "By Name", "By Date", etc? That's supposed to be popping down from the Sort menu in inventory
[15:50]	Charlette Proto: 	funny I didn't notice this as a new problem, must be very forgiving of the aesthetics in the UI by now
[15:50]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I think there's a very real problem with tags not wanting to live on the RHS of screen. Other than that though, the effect is exactly what would happen if the tag were located slightly ahead of the sitting avatars ... ie. perspective.
[15:51]	Charlette Proto: 	no way Morg
[15:51]	Charlette Proto: 	it is just a 2D screen width variable
[15:52]	Charlette Proto: 	always the same margin offset
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli agrees with Charlette. Probably some Linden assumed that screens would never be above a certain width, or something.	Jacek Antonelli agrees with Charlette. Probably some Linden assumed that screens would never be above a certain width, or something.
[15:52]	Charlette Proto: 	tags and menus
[15:52]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Run that video again and ignore everything EXCEPT MYTHOES --- watch the tag position with respect to him. It's 100% a perspective effect. Moves from side to side.
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Morgaine: That's not the effect that we're talking about
[15:53]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Can't comment on menu as don't see the issue yet (must be looking for wrong thing)
[15:53]	Squirrel Wood: 	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-14713
[15:53]	Jacek Antonelli: 	We're talking about how none of the tags nor the menus are willing to appear in the right-most 1/5th of the screen
[15:53]	Charlette Proto: 	like Jacek said; perhaps the tendency for edit floater being 90% offscreen to the right is related to this too
[15:54]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Oh sure, agree there. The RHS of screen is disliked by tags, yep
[15:54]	Squirrel Wood: 	thar b ur jira ^^
[15:54]	Morgaine Dinova: 	But don't claim it's tags everywhere are biased away from RHS, because they're not. They move by perspective, very uniformly.
[15:55]	Morgaine Dinova: 	It's just that they don't want to be positioned on RHS at all, so get displaced and linked with the black tracers
[15:55]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Except where they hit that invisible barrier on the right side, Morgaine. They never cross it, even when the person they apply to are over there.
[15:55]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yep
[15:56]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Defnitely something screwy on that far right
[15:56]	Jacek Antonelli: 	There's no reason for them not to want to be on the RHS. And sure not any reason for the menus to do the same thing. So, it's a clear bug, in my mind
[15:56]	Squirrel Wood: 	^^
[15:56]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Well try and describe the effect on the menus clearly in the Jira :-)
[15:57]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Maybe Squirrel could add one of those rectangle overlay thingies on YouTube so Morgaine can see where the menu is appearing?
[15:57]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I never use silver, so I guess I don't see anything wrong there.
[15:58]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Or heck, I'll tack a screengrab
[15:58]	Squirrel Wood: 	^^
[15:58]	Squirrel Wood: 	I use silver because I dislike the old color scheme :p
[15:58]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Scheme? You reckon there was a scheme? ;-)
[15:59]	Squirrel Wood: 	:p
[15:59]	Charlette Proto: 	added my 5 cents worth (same on Win7 with Nvidia) to your JIRA Squirrel
[15:59]	Squirrel Wood: 	mayhas its nvidia related?
[15:59]	Charlette Proto: 	I hate the warm gray too
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli: 	http://tentacolor.com/files/2009/07/16/menu_weirdness.jpg
[16:00]	Charlette Proto: 	could be:
??? Second Life 1.23.4
??? CPU: Intel Pentium III/Pentium III Xeon (0.25 micron process) with external L2 cache (2527 MHz)
??? Memory: 4064 MB
??? OS Version: Professional (Build 7100)
??? Graphics Card Vendor: NVIDIA Corporation
??? Graphics Card: GeForce 9600M GT/PCI/SSE2
??? Windows Graphics Driver Version: 8.15.0011.8603
??? OpenGL Version: 3.0.0
[16:01]	Squirrel Wood: 	W7 ^^
[16:01]	Squirrel Wood: 	I have that running on a loptop at work...
[16:01]	Squirrel Wood: 	works like a charm
[16:01]	Charlette Proto: 	it works great for me (Win7)
[16:02]	Squirrel Wood: 	I just hate the stupid eu politicians
[16:02]	Squirrel Wood: 	because due to their fail I'll have to install IE separately
[16:02]	Charlette Proto: 	heaps better (faster boot shutdown etc) than Vista
[16:02]	Squirrel Wood: 	even tho I just use it for winbugs downgrades
[16:02]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I'm confirming the "RHS out of bounds for tags" bug here, with Snowglobe-102 --- Jacek and Aimee's tags are fine when they're on extreme left edge of my screen, while Squirrel and Armin have black-lined tags when on might far right.
[16:03]	Morgaine Dinova: 	on my* far right
[16:03]	Armin Weatherwax: 	Dun dun DUUUUUN! O_o
[16:03]	Squirrel Wood: 	left side is okay. its just the rhs of the screen that fails :)
[16:03]	Charlette Proto: 	what about the menu Morgaine, mine is the same as Squirrel's
[16:04]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Charlette: I don't know what to look for on menus!!!!! :-((
[16:04]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Did you see my screenshot Morgaine?
[16:04]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Aha!
[16:05]	Morgaine Dinova: 	lol
[16:05]	Squirrel Wood: 	the menus fear the rhs of the screen :p
[16:06]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Note that it's (roughly) lined up with the invisible wall that the nametags fear, too
[16:06]	Charlette Proto: 	this may be related to wrong estimates of the UI element width (I suspect) because the edit floater is often placed 90% offscreen (right) on my system in 1.23.4
[16:06]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Gotcha, right, lol. The damn label was so far away it wasn't even registering as part of the menu, haha
[16:07]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Lemme see if that's happening here
[16:07]	Charlette Proto: 	Morgaine is having a bit of long day I suspect
[16:07]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Nope, having a good day. Until now ^_^
[16:07]	Squirrel Wood: 	I have set UI size to the smallest possible
[16:08]	Squirrel Wood: 	mayhaps that causes the wrong calculation
[16:08]	Squirrel Wood: 	because its set to 0.75
[16:08]	Jacek Antonelli: 	That could definitely be it
[16:08]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Well I can't switch to that UI Size, owing to 14302 --- instant crash
[16:09]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe Morg
[16:09]	Aimee Trescothick: 	that does it
[16:09]	Aimee Trescothick: 	it's the UI size affecting them
[16:09]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yep, that's it!
[16:09]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Woohoo!
[16:09]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Does it here now, with the size set down
[16:09]	Squirrel Wood: 	so they fail to calculate it properly
[16:10]	Morgaine Dinova hopes that Aimee is going to fix the 14301/2 crash bug at same time :P 	Morgaine Dinova hopes that Aimee is going to fix the 14301/2 crash bug at same time :P
[16:10]	Charlette Proto: 	LL must all have the same LCDs or is it same LSD trips
[16:10]	Aimee Trescothick: 	lol
[16:10]	Jacek Antonelli: 	lol
[16:10]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Charlette: that could well be true
[16:11]	Jacek Antonelli: 	And if the UI size is >1.0, the name tags can go off the right side, even though they shouldn't.
[16:11]	Charlette Proto: 	yup especially the likeliness of the same drug dealer they buy LSD from
[16:11]	Aimee Trescothick: 	everyone knows they all have Commodore PETs
[16:11]	Squirrel Wood: 	they all run in text mode still :p
[16:12]	Squirrel Wood: 	so they use special text renderers
[16:12]	Aimee Trescothick: 	makes sense really, the UI scale is used to scale them, just shouldn't be used to position them
[16:12]	Armin Weatherwax: 	and can see _pretty_ xml
[16:12]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Aimee: if after the UI Size change you reload **just the fonts used** (instead of every damn font known to X11), then I bet 14302 would disappear :-)
[16:12]	Aimee Trescothick: 	easy mistakea to makea
[16:12]	Charlette Proto: 	yup and Philip still uses a Wyse terminal (amber)
[16:12]	Aimee Trescothick: 	heh
[16:12]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hehe
[16:12]	Aimee Trescothick: 	oooh, I used to love my Wyse amber
[16:12]	Squirrel Wood: 	lynx!
[16:13]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hehe, there was a video a while back of a Linden "running" SL on an Apple ][. :D Well, actually, they were just piping the video from their computer to it, hehe
[16:13]	Aimee Trescothick makes mental note to make amber ICC profile for her new LCDs 	Aimee Trescothick makes mental note to make amber ICC profile for her new LCDs
[16:13]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hehe, build lcms into Snowglobe :-))
[16:13]	Charlette Proto: 	don't laugh, I used to type: "go internet" on Compuserve using Wyse
[16:14]	Armin Weatherwax: 	ah. may i suggest for a future meeting as a topic: features that could help make machinima
[16:14]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Oooh, nice idea
[16:15]	Charlette Proto: 	LL still have the server farm attached to 28kbps modem
[16:15]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Nice topic, Armin
[16:16]	Charlette Proto: 	good idea Armin, but wouldn't it be just a set of instructions for UI and screencapture tools
[16:16]	Squirrel Wood: 	http://www.softpedia.com/get/Multimedia/Graphic/Image-Convertors/JASCiiArt.shtml ^^
[16:17]	Squirrel Wood: 	SL needs this as render mode :p
[16:18]	Armin Weatherwax: 	charlette: there are two main types of machinima: one is where any UI is disturbing, and maybe floating text etc - an the other type where yo want as much ui as possible (tutorials and such)
[16:18]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Vastly more than just cap tools ... but that's a topic for another day
[16:18]	Armin Weatherwax: 	that's more than choosing the best software for capturing
[16:19]	Charlette Proto: 	I know but in my view, tutorial vids (UI present) are not machinima at all
[16:19]	Jacek Antonelli: 	There could be other features too, like more cinematic camera controls
[16:20]	Squirrel Wood: 	camera paths
[16:20]	Squirrel Wood: 	using splines
[16:20]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah
[16:20]	Charlette Proto: 	yeah I've talked about animated cameras before and that would really be the most important aspect for machinima in my view
[16:20]	Squirrel Wood: 	you can somewhat script those
[16:20]	Jacek Antonelli: 	❤ splines
[16:21]	Charlette Proto: 	yeah but LSL is a bit to crude for people who want to mame vids
[16:22]	Charlette Proto: 	too*
[16:22]	Charlette Proto: 	??? am I confused about what I'm trying to say hehe
[16:23]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, I've gotta head out
[16:23]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Thanks for coming, everyone! See you next week :)
[16:23]	Charlette Proto: 	have a good week Jacek