Pathfinding in Second Life/2012-06-07

==Attendees List==
*any1 Gynoid (any1.gynoid)
*Falcon Linden (falcon.linden)
*Horatio (horatio)
*Hyper (hyper.mole)
*Jira Helper (jira.helper)
*Jonathan Yap (jonathan.yap)
*Killer (killer)
*Lorca Linden (lorca.linden)
*M√¶stro Linden (maestro.linden)
*MaV (matu) (mav.(matu))
*Motor Loon (motor.loon)
*Nal (nalates.urriah)
*Rex Cronon (rex.cronon)
*Sandry Logan (sandry.logan)
*Second Life (second.life)
*Stinson Linden (stinson.linden)
*And all I got was this lousy DN (tankmaster.finesmith)
*Blue Alloy (tiberious.neruda)
*Tiberious Neruda (tiberious.neruda)
*TriJin Bade (trijin.bade)
==Transcript for Thursday June 7, 2012==
[16:03]	Lorca Linden 	hello everyone!
[16:03]	Motor Loon 	ey Lorca
[16:03]	Horatio 	whispers: Greeting Jira .
[16:03]	And all I got was this lousy DN	howdy lorca
[16:03]	Rex Cronon 	hello everybody
[16:03]	Motor Loon 	so VKC going all PF when it's out?
[16:03]	Lorca Linden 	who build horatio?
[16:03]	Rex Cronon 	did this sim just get back online?
[16:04]	Jonathan Yap 	I think I crashed it this morning
[16:04]	Horatio 	whispers: Noticed Rex
[16:04]	Sandry Logan 	we're looking at it Motor
[16:04]	Motor Loon 	/me nods
[16:04]	Lorca Linden 	we've had a few bugs on the aditi build
[16:04]	Lorca Linden 	so, let's start with show and tell
[16:04]	M√¶stro Linden 	it was crashing earlier today in the old version
[16:04]	Horatio 	whispers: Greeting Tiberious .
[16:05]	Lorca Linden 	any other PF objects to show off?
[16:05]	Lorca Linden 	I like horatio
[16:05]	Sandry Logan 	horatio greet lorca
[16:05]	Motor Loon 	seems to run pretty good
[16:05]	Blue Alloy 	awww... cute :3
[16:05]	Rex Cronon 	i heard that somebody was making an xxx game
[16:06]	Sandry Logan 	horatio come sit
[16:06]	Nal 	wow nice
[16:06]	Sandry Logan 	he's probably a bit quick motor
[16:06]	Motor Loon 	In this case, I think quick is good
[16:06]	Rex Cronon 	no idea lorca
[16:06]	Blue Alloy 	...I've never seen pathfinding in action before, so this is new to me
[16:06]	Nal 	not the penises... horatio
[16:07]	Sandry Logan 	horatio explore 30
[16:07]	Motor Loon 	showing off the potential compared to the "oldschool way of doing it"
[16:07]	Rex Cronon 	that clab is faster than the energizer bunny:)
[16:07]	Rex Cronon 	that club*
[16:07]	Blue Alloy 	under the old school, he'd be shoving everyone around
[16:07]	Sandry Logan 	he gets a bit confused when there are a lot of avatars or dynamic objets close by
[16:07]	Rex Cronon 	cub*
[16:08]	Killer 	whispers: Greeting Rex .
[16:08]	M√¶stro Linden 	Killer greet Lorca
[16:08]	Lorca Linden 	lots of avatars in a tight space can be tricky for FP objects sometimes, due to collision sizes
[16:08]	Rex Cronon 	hi killer
[16:08]	Sandry Logan 	heya Blue, indeed he would
[16:08]	Motor Loon 	killer is the old VKC without PF
[16:08]	Killer 	whispers: Greeting Jonathan .
[16:09]	Lorca Linden 	horatio runs circles around killer ;)
[16:09]	Killer 	whispers: Greeting TankMaster .
[16:09]	Motor Loon 	it does ¬∞Õú¬∞
[16:09]	Blue Alloy 	...now all we'd need is the ability to make objects that use rigged meshes and gain a skeleton... >:3
[16:09]	Lorca Linden 	thanks for showing him off
[16:09]	Lorca Linden 	lol, blue
[16:09]	Sandry Logan 	horatio come sit passive
[16:09]	Lorca Linden 	maybe down the road
[16:09]	Jonathan Yap 	Lorca, did you get a chance to look at pathbug-142? (Add ability to better control character height above terrain) I cannot get my rat to run around on the ground
[16:09]	Jira Helper 	[#PATHBUG-142] Add ability to better control character height above terrain https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/PATHBUG-142
[16:10]	Blue Alloy 	kinda like a bot without needing a connection and another client running :3
[16:10]	Lorca Linden 	maestro : have you had a chance to look into that yet *Lorca shamelessly passes the buck *
[16:10]	Lorca Linden 	?
[16:10]	M√¶stro Linden 	-142?
[16:10]	Lorca Linden 	yup
[16:11]	M√¶stro Linden 	I think it's a matter of adjusting the character height
[16:11]	M√¶stro Linden 	and possibly moving the root prim relative to the rest of the linkset
[16:11]	Rex Cronon 	lets say i want to make a hamster that runs through a 3d pipe maze. what is the min diameter that i can use?
[16:11]	And all I got was this lousy DN	hover rat!
[16:11]	Jonathan Yap 	I adjusted it as much as the script will allow.
[16:11]	Motor Loon 	depends on the size of the hamster ,-)
[16:11]	M√¶stro Linden 	CHARACTER_RADIUS ranges from 0.1 to 5.0.
[16:12]	Killer 	whispers: Greeting Sandry .
[16:12]	Motor Loon 	Attack of the giant killer hamsters from mars
[16:12]	Jonathan Yap 	character_length can be 0? The docs say otherwise
[16:12]	Blue Alloy 	does horatio respond to anyone?
[16:12]	M√¶stro Linden 	hm, is the wiki wrong? looks like you're radius is 25% larger than the documented minimum
[16:12]	Rex Cronon 	i want to make find the cheese:0
[16:12]	Rex Cronon 	:)
[16:12]	Motor Loon 	Horatio come sit
[16:12]	Motor Loon 	looks like it
[16:13]	Jonathan Yap 	wiki says 2 * length + 0.1
[16:13]	M√¶stro Linden 	and anyway, you should probably just link the rat so that the root prim is higher, then the rest of it will be closer to the ground (the character is always centered around the root prim's cetner)
[16:13]	Lorca Linden 	so I'd like to open the floor for viewer questions
[16:13]	Lorca Linden 	how many of you have played around with the pathfinding project viewer?
[16:13]	Rex Cronon 	sadly i can't have a 3d pipe maze:(
[16:13]	Jonathan Yap 	Thank you (again) maestro
[16:13]	M√¶stro Linden 	no, I think it's that minimum effective length is 2*radius+0.1
[16:14]	Sandry Logan 	yes, i've been unsing it pretty much all the time
[16:14]	Nal 	Its been awhile but I was using it.
[16:14]	M√¶stro Linden 	I'd recommend just using that root prim offset method though
[16:14]	Lorca Linden 	usually this UG has been more focused on the server side, but if you have any questions or feedback about the viewer
[16:14]	Jonathan Yap 	One thing I really like is the Teleport To option
[16:14]	Lorca Linden 	Stinson is the expert since he mostly built it ;)
[16:14]	Falcon Linden 	Hey folks
[16:14]	MaV (matu) 	what was the link to the latest version?
[16:15]	Blue Alloy 	I haven't yet. Might be interesting to see what it can do
[16:15]	Rex Cronon 	hi falcon
[16:15]	Stinson Linden 	one sec, matu.
[16:15]	Sandry Logan 	yes, what jonanthan said, that's very useful when sorting out the linksets all over a region
[16:15]	Second Life 	Blue Alloy (tiberious.neruda) is now known as Tiberious Neruda.
[16:15]	Lorca Linden 	Jonathan and Sandry : have you found the PF viewer tools to have a good workflow for retrofitting regions for pathfinding?
[16:15]	Stinson Linden 	@matu, http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/viewer-pathfinding/latest.html
[16:15]	MaV (matu) 	thanks :)
[16:15]	Jonathan Yap 	Lorca, I don't own a region, so cannot say
[16:16]	Lorca Linden 	fair enough
[16:16]	Tiberious Neruda 	are pathfinding objects limited to ground-based movement?
[16:16]	Falcon Linden 	yes
[16:16]	Lorca Linden 	I'm not going to give specific dates, but I can say that we intend to be in RC soon, so there is not much time left to give actionable feedback on the UI / UX front
[16:16]	Sandry Logan 	i thought so Lorca. I mean, a job like that is always going to be a bit of a grind, but i found it was perfectly workable
[16:17]	Rex Cronon 	i think that when u select an object, the build window should have a new tab with all the properties regarding pathfinding
[16:17]	Lorca Linden 	that's good to know, thanks sandry
[16:17]	Falcon Linden 	Some day it might be possible to provide aerial pathfinding, but issues like banking (should characters bank? how?), dynamic updating of the nav volumes, and takeoff/landing make it hard
[16:17]	And all I got was this lousy DN	how is the physics stub coming along?
[16:17]	Falcon Linden 	Rex Cronon: that's harder than you'd think. instead, we'll provide a right-click option to open selected in linksets/characters floater as appropriate
[16:18]	Jonathan Yap 	Rex, that poor build floater is so overloaded already, too
[16:18]	Rex Cronon 	eventually u will have to integrate it with the build window
[16:18]	Falcon Linden 	tankmaster: the stub? That's done, at least in principle, but I don't know much about the TPV release process for it.
[16:18]	Falcon Linden 	Rex: oh yeah?
[16:18]	Sandry Logan 	something like that would definitely be useful falcon, to save searching in the linkset window
[16:18]	And all I got was this lousy DN	ok
[16:18]	Falcon Linden 	sandry: yep, we finalized that question today
[16:19]	Rex Cronon 	don't u think that everything should be in one place? making an easier to use gui:)
[16:19]	Falcon Linden 	we also think that in german you shouldn't have to wait for the names of the tabs to scroll by
[16:19]	Lorca Linden 	lol
[16:19]	Falcon Linden 	and that the build panel shouldn't take up the entire viewport
[16:20]	Falcon Linden 	but we can't have everything we'd like, just like you're not gettin' rainbows or ponies
[16:20]	TriJin Bade 	Amen to that
[16:20]	Nal 	Build panel is full now... a menu and right-click access may be a button in the Build panel may have to do.
[16:20]	Motor Loon 	but... I WANT that pony
[16:20]	Motor Loon 	/me holds breath and stomps foot
[16:21]	Rex Cronon 	i just the gold at the end of the rainbow:)
[16:21]	Lorca Linden 	wherever possible, we've tried to streamline the pathfinding build floater. Currently, it's actually half the size compared to 4 months ago
[16:21]	Rex Cronon 	as long as this is not the final version
[16:22]	Lorca Linden 	no, the UI is not final yet
[16:22]	TriJin Bade 	It needs shortening. Even on a 1900+ resolution, when I'm setting a large build, it's a pain to keep resizing it just for the viewport
[16:22]	TriJin Bade 	Would be even better if you could pop the floaters out onto a second monitor.. oh heaven
[16:22]	Falcon Linden 	trijin: ponies!
[16:23]	TriJin Bade 	/me runs screaming!!!!
[16:23]	Motor Loon 	YAY PONIES FOR EVERYONE
[16:23]	Rex Cronon 	no thanks. they have an attitude problem:)
[16:23]	TriJin Bade 	Mind you, I have a linden dark pony guarding my linden home lol
[16:24]	Motor Loon 	but yeah generally when it comes to UI - smaller is better
[16:24]	TriJin Bade 	Even by setting the PF type on the right click on an object would help
[16:26]	TriJin Bade 	/me gives Maestro a neck brace
[16:26]	Rex Cronon 	might be better to have a tree viewe that shows what objects in the sim r using PF and which r not
[16:26]	Falcon Linden 	rex: you can do that with the filters in the linksets floater
[16:26]	Lorca Linden 	any other UI / build floater questions? If not, Stinson you are welcome to leave
[16:26]	TriJin Bade 	I quite like the filters. They work well for me
[16:26]	Rex Cronon 	a tree with 15000 leaves:)
[16:26]	any1 Gynoid 	<-- likes the PF tools usuability fwiw... great job on that!
[16:26]	Lorca Linden 	thanks any1!
[16:27]	Lorca Linden 	alright then, thanks Stinson
[16:27]	Lorca Linden 	server side questions then?
[16:27]	Stinson Linden 	later all
[16:27]	TriJin Bade 	I'm very pleased with the region performance. Kudos to that. Things are working well...:)
[16:27]	Rex Cronon 	tc stinson
[16:28]	Falcon Linden 	thanks :)
[16:28]	Falcon Linden 	I do have one brief announcement
[16:28]	Falcon Linden 	in the next deploy, we'll be providing a new method, llGetStaticPath(vector start, vector end, float radius, list options)
[16:28]	any1 Gynoid 	/ noticed.... changes in the local PF motions... had to reduce PF velocities by 3X or 4X recently... what's up with that?
[16:28]	TriJin Bade 	There is a slight problem sometimes with the "flying physical objects" doing their superman impression... but I guess that's to do with server to viewer interpolation
[16:28]	Falcon Linden 	trijin: flying physical objects?
[16:28]	Rex Cronon 	what is the max size of the list returned?
[16:29]	Falcon Linden 	unspecified :)
[16:29]	Rex Cronon 	1GB:)?
[16:29]	TriJin Bade 	Sometimes the character suddenly flies in a straight line.. obviously waiting for the next server tick
[16:29]	any1 Gynoid 	<-- I see that constantly
[16:29]	Falcon Linden 	well, flying characters aren't supported
[16:30]	TriJin Bade 	my ping is usually about 150 but see it more with characters than other phys objects
[16:30]	Falcon Linden 	anyhow, llGetStaticPath will return a list of waypoints between 'start' and 'end' through which a character of effective radius 'radius' can pass
[16:30]	TriJin Bade 	Awesome
[16:30]	Falcon Linden 	the options list only accepts CHARACTER_TYPE right now
[16:30]	Hyper 	no, regular characters fly past
[16:30]	Falcon Linden 	also, this is very important
[16:30]	Rex Cronon 	i would rather like it, if things would stop moving if connection is lost rather than floating to infinity
[16:31]	Falcon Linden 	llGetStaticPath will NOT take into account any object not marked as static
[16:31]	Falcon Linden 	rex: I'd rather we had client side prediction and it just did the right thing.
[16:31]	any1 Gynoid 	this is the "weird thing" problem Falcon.. and Lindens must fix it
[16:32]	Falcon Linden 	I envision three main uses for llGetStaticPath
[16:32]	Motor Loon 	must is a strong word ¬∞Õú¬∞
[16:32]	Rex Cronon 	so we could mod this list and give it back to the path finding object?
[16:32]	TriJin Bade 	Is there a PAUSE option in the path list? if so, can you set a duration of the pause?
[16:33]	Falcon Linden 	the function just returns a list of points, it does no motion
[16:33]	TriJin Bade 	Gotcha
[16:33]	Falcon Linden 	(1) in attachments in a fully pathfinding region (where everything important has been marked walkable/obstacle)
[16:33]	TriJin Bade 	<--- mind was on something else.. spanks self
[16:33]	Falcon Linden 	(2) As a fallback method for pathfinding objects in pathfinding-disabled regions
[16:34]	Falcon Linden 	(yes, it will work in pathfinding-disabled regions)
[16:34]	Falcon Linden 	(3) For use with llSetKeyframedMotion to determine waypoints
[16:34]	M√¶stro Linden 	Falcon, I guess it would be correct to say that the list of points should roughly match what the viewer's "Test Path" shows
[16:34]	Falcon Linden 	well said, maestro
[16:34]	M√¶stro Linden 	actually, that's probably how I'll test it..
[16:35]	TriJin Bade 	If the region isn't PF enabled, what character width would it use?
[16:35]	Falcon Linden 	it's a floating point parameter.
[16:35]	Falcon Linden 	you tell it what character width to use, it doesn't infer it
[16:35]	Falcon Linden 	err, character radius
[16:35]	TriJin Bade 	perfect
[16:35]	Falcon Linden 	also, your start and end points must be within a character radius of the navmesh
[16:36]	M√¶stro Linden 	so you may want to prefix it with llGetClosestNavPoint
[16:36]	Falcon Linden 	ooo, one more detail about the list returns
[16:36]	Falcon Linden 	returned*
[16:36]	Falcon Linden 	i.e., llGetClosestNavPoint(start, [GCNP_RADIUS, radius]) must return a hit. So if your radius is small, you should use llGetClosestPoint first with a bigger search radius to find a better start/end
[16:37]	Falcon Linden 	the last element will either be 0 if the path is good or it will match a PU_FAILURE_... constant ( in which case the list will be size 1)
[16:37]	TriJin Bade 	so the list will always be >=1
[16:38]	Motor Loon 	thats pretty neat
[16:38]	Falcon Linden 	yes
[16:39]	TriJin Bade 	I assume the max would be whatever memory there is
[16:39]	Falcon Linden 	yes
[16:39]	Falcon Linden 	if it turns out to return too many points, we can always add a limit option
[16:39]	TriJin Bade 	A trim cap would be perfect
[16:40]	Falcon Linden 	if we really need it. We're pretty busy trying to get this out :)
[16:40]	TriJin Bade 	Of course :)
[16:40]	TriJin Bade 	Baby Steps
[16:41]	Lorca Linden 	well then, any other questions or neat PF creatures to show us?
[16:41]	Rex Cronon 	sound like pretty soon we might be playing something similar to WOW in sl:) with quests too:)
[16:41]	TriJin Bade 	I'm working on a few but will defer presentation until later :P
[16:42]	Lorca Linden 	next week!
[16:42]	TriJin Bade 	yup :P
[16:42]	any1 Gynoid 	whoo hoo! great job Lindens! PF rocks!
[16:42]	Falcon Linden 	rex: just need animation :)
[16:43]	Lorca Linden 	and without a doubt, Rex, pathfinding plus the tools coming out of Linden Realms will be a big step up for the gaming community in SL (though of course these features are useful elsewhere as well)
[16:43]	TriJin Bade 	I'm excited about it. Especially the HUD and other tools
[16:43]	any1 Gynoid 	<-- teaching how to animate... almost got it perfected... the teaching techniques... we can make ppls true believers in 1 hour.. np at all
[16:43]	Nal 	...I still can't rez things here and have to build from scratch each time... SVC-7727
[16:43]	Jira Helper 	[#SVC-7727] Aditi grid problem. After changing my password to cause my inventory on Aditi to update, my inventory no longer saves changes made to it from session to session. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7727
[16:43]	And all I got was this lousy DN	itll be interesting to see what people come up with
[16:43]	Rex Cronon 	things might get interesting around here:)
[16:44]	Falcon Linden 	nal: may be able to fix it, but it will definitely wipe all your inv here
[16:44]	Lorca Linden 	that's awesome an1! I'm very happy you are helping spread the word that pathfinding is not so evil as some have made it out to be ;)
[16:44]	Nal 	That is ok... since I changeed pw I haven't been able to save anything I build here.
[16:45]	Lorca Linden 	and just as a reminder, you all are welcome to ping hyper for questions relating to pathfinding or to point residents who want help to her as a resource
[16:45]	any1 Gynoid 	Lorca.. it would be awesome if we had a list of PF sandboxes to share... I would give it out to all my students...
[16:45]	Lorca Linden 	she is the ambassador of PF
[16:45]	Hyper 	/me waves
[16:45]	Falcon Linden 	Lorca: can you get that list to any1?
[16:45]	Lorca Linden 	and quite knoweldgable abou thow to help retrofit builds for pathfinding
[16:45]	TriJin Bade 	/me salutes
[16:45]	M√¶stro Linden 	any1: the snack sandbox regions are fairly accessible sandboxes
[16:45]	M√¶stro Linden 	they're totally public though
[16:46]	Lorca Linden 	any1 : I will add that to the main pathfinding wiki. Also we are going to do one more migration of regions to the PF beta channel prior to RC
[16:46]	Lorca Linden 	so if your students have a region and want it on pathfinding
[16:46]	Lorca Linden 	tell them to email pathfinding-beta@lindenlab.com
[16:47]	any1 Gynoid 	ohhh great!!! I'll announce that big time!
[16:47]	Lorca Linden 	likely sometime next week, so tell them to hurry ;)
[16:47]	Lorca Linden 	we also plan to move more of the public sandboxes onto the PF channel next week on agni
[16:48]	Hyper 	the premium sandboxes are on PF now
[16:48]	Hyper 	the ones by Linden Homes
[16:48]	Hyper 	FYI
[16:48]	Lorca Linden 	yup, we are going to be moving some non premium sandboxes to PF as well next week
[16:49]	TriJin Bade 	I guess a PF character would make a great premium gift to showcase the feature
[16:49]	Lorca Linden 	in the plans trijin
[16:49]	Lorca Linden 	agreed on that
[16:49]	TriJin Bade 	/me zips it :P
[16:49]	Lorca Linden 	any other questions? if not I'm going to call it 10 min early
[16:49]	Motor Loon 	yeah give them a flesh eating zombie that'll hunt them around their linden home lol
[16:49]	Hyper 	a little LH puppy
[16:50]	TriJin Bade 	Already have plenty of those on my place lol
[16:50]	any1 Gynoid 	too easy Motor!... hee hee
[16:50]	Lorca Linden 	alright then, that's it for this week
[16:50]	Lorca Linden 	thank you all for coming
[16:50]	Sandry Logan 	falcon/maestro, did either of you have a chance to look at PATHBUG-141
[16:50]	Jira Helper 	[#PATHBUG-141] Flag for llNavigateTo to allow character to get right onto (or very close to) the target position https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/PATHBUG-141
[16:50]	Rex Cronon 	tc everybody
[16:50]	TriJin Bade 	Thanks guys. As always, keep rockin
[16:50]	Lorca Linden 	see you next week!
[16:50]	MaV (matu) 	thanks!
[16:50]	Lorca Linden 	and please bring something for show and tell
[16:50]	Lorca Linden 	if you have nifty PF critters
[16:50]	TriJin Bade 	:P
[16:50]	Rex Cronon 	and have a nice day. and keep up the good work lindens:)
[16:51]	Lorca Linden 	/me vanishes in a puff of smoke
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