User Experience Interest Group/Transcripts/2009-01-22

== Topic & Summary ==
User Experience Interest Group Discussion for January 22, 2009.
Topic: Alternative Input Devices
We fantasized about alternative input devices, and how they might be used to control and interface with Second Life. 
Some of the most talked-about devices were:
* Webcams
* Wii Remotes
* Drawing tablets / tablet PCs / multi-touch screens
Some popular ideas for uses were:
* Avatar gesture / puppeteering control
* Drawn gesture commands / directional (pie) menus
* Landscaping and sculpty creation
* Drawing on an interactive, collaborative in-world whiteboard
=== Links ===
* Emotiv brain-reading headset
* Mitch Kapor unveils SL navigation via 3D camera
* VR-WEAR SL head analysis viewer
* Processing multimedia library
* Bluecove (Bluetooth software library)
* SignpostMarv Martin's ideas for Wiimote integration
* Hypertree and Rgraph demonstrations.
* Controlling the SL camera with the Wii Classic Controller
* Webcam Piano with Quartz Composer
* Koi Pond touch screen app for iPhone
== Transcript ==
[15:06]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Today's topic is alternative input devices. That is, controllers and other ways to use a computer and SL besides the typical keyboard and mouse stuff
[15:06]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Neat
[15:06]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe I want that brain thought interface
[15:06]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hiya Charlette!
[15:06]	Jacek Antonelli: 	This'll be a pretty loose discussion, just having some fun and talking about how these things could be used :D
[15:06]	Garn Conover pets Spacenav 	Garn Conover pets Spacenav
[15:07]	Charlette Proto: 	last year I thought it was a hoaks when I looked at it
[15:07]	Jacek Antonelli: 	As some examples of alternative input devices: Yep, there's space navigator, also things like drawing tablets and tablet PCs, eye tracking and webcams, motion capture suits / gloves, even that new Emotiv headset that reads your brain! o_O
[15:07]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Well first of all ... is anyone actually USING a "novel" controller of any kind with SL?
[15:07]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I have to use than.
[15:08]	Geneko Nemeth: 	My keyboard broke.
[15:08]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hehe
[15:08]	Etheria Parrott: 	no I don't use one
[15:08]	Teravus Ousley: 	There was someone who used a VR headset in 'Becomming a Dragon'
[15:08]	Panacea Pangaea: 	nor me either
[15:08]	Jacek Antonelli: 	How many people here have a Space Navigator (and use it for SL)?
[15:08]	Teravus Ousley: 	UCCA or something like that.
[15:08]	Charlette Proto: 	most of it relates to gesture computing and our UI is particularily poorly suited to except for the neglected pie menu
[15:08]	Aimee Trescothick couldn't live without her SpaceNav 	Aimee Trescothick couldn't live without her SpaceNav
[15:08]	Garn Conover raises paw 	Garn Conover raises paw
[15:08]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Nobody using Wiimote? I was hoping to pick up a tip :-)
[15:08]	Etheria Parrott: 	I would like a 3D headet that makes me feel I am waling in this world
[15:08]	Garn Conover agree's with Aimee 	Garn Conover agree's with Aimee
[15:08]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Azdel Slade.
[15:08]	Etheria Parrott: 	walking even
[15:09]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Ah, Wiimote is a good alternative input device. That would be fun :D
[15:09]	Garn Conover: 	Morgaine i know Marv uses one sometimes
[15:09]	Ciaran Laval: 	Any news on Mitch Kapor's developments?
[15:09]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I'd love to try it.
[15:09]	Garn Conover: 	haha
[15:09]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I haven't heard anything out of Mitch lately.
[15:09]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Oh, I'll ask Marv if he's on
[15:09]	Charlette Proto: 	headworn displays are very cumbersome in my experience and really don't support resolutions needed for Second Life™
[15:09]	Ciaran Laval: 	He was making what appeared to be Wii style input devices a while back, I saw a demo on you tube
[15:10]	Gregorio Broadfoot: 	head worn can give you a headache last I tried but that was several years ago
[15:10]	Etheria Parrott: 	never tried one but let's hope they improve
[15:10]	Gregorio Broadfoot: 	I think a dance mat with a basic serial output would be cool
[15:10]	Jacek Antonelli: 	For those who hadn't heard about that, Mitch Kapor's company has been working on a camera device that analyzes your expression and body movement, and applies it to your avatar
[15:10]	Panacea Pangaea: 	I reckon there's be great scope for body suits that conveyed touch
[15:10]	Charlette Proto: 	most of these devices only declined since the Virtual Reality scene based on SGI disapeared
[15:10]	Gregorio Broadfoot: 	if you physically dance and know the others are to that helps tie the physical to the virtual
[15:11]	Garn Conover: 	oh i remember that
[15:11]	Gregorio Broadfoot: 	I miss the SGIs :-)
[15:11]	Jacek Antonelli: 	There's also the Emotiv headset ( http://emotiv.com/ ) which senses electrical activity in your brain. It can read your thoughts! Well, sort of. Enough to control a simple game.
[15:11]	Gregorio Broadfoot: 	but lots of web cames available now
[15:11]	Aimee Trescothick: 	http://secondlife.reuters.com/stories/2008/04/11/mitch-kapor-unveils-sl-navigation-via-3d-camera/
[15:11]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I think they have a new model that also reads facial expressions.
[15:12]	Jacek Antonelli: 	But I'm not sure if anyone's using them for SL. I heard a lot of people say they'd *like* to, back when it was announced :)
[15:12]	Aimee Trescothick: 	someone else was doing a facial expression SL viewer too, I have a link somewhere
[15:12]	Charlette Proto: 	I used a Wii Remote (acceleromerers) for camera control in Second Life™ myself
[15:12]	Ciaran Laval: 	How did that work out Charlette?
[15:12]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Awesome, Charlette! Was there any special software to do that?
[15:12]	Jacek Antonelli waves to Sai 	Jacek Antonelli waves to Sai
[15:12]	Panacea Pangaea: 	there's two modes to be considered ... getting information ito SL, and getting information out
[15:12]	Aimee Trescothick: 	http://sl.vr-wear.com/
[15:13]	Charlette Proto: 	yes the video based systems have reallr progressed in the last few years but mostly proof of concept systems
[15:13]	Panacea Pangaea: 	making SL more responsive, and making SL more immersive
[15:13]	SignpostMarv Martin was messing with RealXtend 	SignpostMarv Martin was messing with RealXtend
[15:13]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Here's the man himself, Signpost!
[15:13]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hey Marv
[15:13]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	runs slow as crap on my machine for some reason
[15:13]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hehe, neat Marv :-) So, how is the Wiimote for you with SL?
[15:13]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Responsive and immersive are definitely things to strive for, Panacea :D
[15:13]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	personally, i find the classic controller easier to use
[15:13]	Charlette Proto: 	for the Wii I used Processing (from MIT) and Bluecove stack
[15:14]	Garn Conover: 	speaking of the devil and he shall appear
[15:14]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Actually, we did some devil summoning :P
[15:14]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	the Wiimote/Wii-el scripts did keyboard emulation, so they were kinda fun
[15:14]	Charlette Proto: 	Wii Remote basically gave camera control and a few button options but I never managed to move it to Vista
[15:15]	Jacek Antonelli: 	(Here's what Charlette mentioned: Processing: http://www.processing.org/ , and Bluecove: http://bluecove.org/ )
[15:15]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	on the wiimote front i was actually thinking of messing with GlovePIE's abiltiy to interface with MIDI devices and make a virtual theramin
[15:15]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Charlette, because the Wiimote has only relative accelerometers, I'mm surprised you can use it for the camera
[15:15]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	wiimote + nunchuck
[15:15]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	:-P
[15:16]	Gregorio Broadfoot: 	a quick way in would be to just trigger gestures based on input
[15:16]	Gregorio Broadfoot: 	e.g. wave your hand in the upper right of the video camera and avatar does the same
[15:16]	Gregorio Broadfoot: 	trigger it based on croiss a line
[15:16]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yep
[15:16]	Charlette Proto: 	Processing is basically a Java with OpenGl for prototyping and art oriented projetcs
[15:16]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	i went through a rant about avatar control with the wimmote btw
[15:17]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	there was a discussion a while back in AWGroupies about using MIDI streams to control the avatar mesh
[15:17]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	I had the thought that you could strap a couple wiimotes to your body and do live performances of the YMCA dance
[15:17]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hahaha
[15:17]	Aimee Trescothick: 	LOL
[15:17]	Ciaran Laval: 	Now that sounds fun!
[15:17]	Charlette Proto: 	well there is also GlovePie but the author will not let US citizens use it till US army gets out of Iraq hehe
[15:17]	Jacek Antonelli: 	The new club sensation!
[15:18]	SignpostMarv Martin volunteered to write the GlovePIE scripts if SL ever gets that feature 	SignpostMarv Martin volunteered to write the GlovePIE scripts if SL ever gets that feature
[15:18]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:SignpostMarv_Martin/Marv%27s_silly_ideas#Wiimote_Integration
[15:18]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Tnx Marv
[15:18]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	^ 2 year old article
[15:18]	Charlette Proto: 	GlovePieis a music (MIDI) oriented device but it can map any HID controllers
[15:18]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Too bad LL didn't finish the puppeteering code
[15:18]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	Wiimote Integration
??? 
??? * Being able to use it as a gun in mouselook mode
??? * Being able to use it for sports applications (golf)
??? * Generic mouse pointer
??? * Ummm..... ask Javier Puff
??? o Pseudo motion capture - "Rhythm Control"
??? o Force-feedback & sound effects 
??? * Gesture control system similar to the one employed in Black & White
??? * AO Integration
??? o Raising the Wiimote in a drinking motion to trigger a drink anim
??? o Waving it back and forth to trigger a wave anim
[15:19]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	yes, the 4th idea on the list is indeed fap control
[15:19]	Jacek Antonelli: 	>_<
[15:19]	Aimee Trescothick: 	ROFL
[15:19]	Charlette Proto: 	yes all that is neat but the majority of Second Life™ menus are just too cumbersome for gesture computing
[15:19]	Etheria Parrott: 	sorry have to go :)
[15:19]	Aimee Trescothick: 	bye Eth :)
[15:19]	Chaffro Schoonmaker: 	bye Ethy
[15:19]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	now what would be fun would be a native wiimote driver that would enable programs to send sounds over to the speaker
[15:19]	Etheria Parrott: 	x
[15:20]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	creep people out with text-to-speech of their prim dong
[15:20]	Jacek Antonelli: 	heh
[15:20]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	oh, btw- Jacek
[15:20]	Charlette Proto: 	only the pie menu can be readily operated with gestures because of the inherent simplifications of the dexterity in movements required to make the selections
[15:20]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	re: Imprudence viewer download via S3
[15:20]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	I can has buckets ?
[15:20]	SignpostMarv Martin thinks gesture based menus suck 	SignpostMarv Martin thinks gesture based menus suck
[15:21]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	gesture control in B&W yes, gesture menus no
[15:21]	Charlette Proto: 	for gesture we really need to make the pie menu work will all aspects of the interface like I mentioned so many times
[15:21]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Gesture computing would be an interesting option for tablet PCs in particular
[15:22]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Make pie menus where there aren't any?
[15:22]	Charlette Proto: 	pie menus utilise muscle memory and allow for very practical gesture based selection
[15:22]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Like text boxes.
[15:22]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	anyone here played Black & White ?
[15:22]	Jacek Antonelli: 	How do you mean, Geneko?
[15:22]	Geneko Nemeth: 	There's no paste" menu for Text boxes.
[15:22]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I've played it, Marv. Interesting gesture system
[15:23]	Charlette Proto: 	look more at Maya (lots of menu items) rather than the oldfashioned 8 item menus like we use in Second Life™
[15:23]	Geneko Nemeth: 	No any menu at all actually.
[15:23]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	gestures work well for non-position-sensitive casting
[15:23]	Teravus Ousley: 	heh, that bugs me too Geneko
[15:23]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	like you could do a P-shaped doodle on the screen to rez a prim at your feet
[15:23]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	but doing gestures to operate menu commands ?
[15:23]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	far too fiddly
[15:23]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	think about the actions people do in SL
[15:24]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I think the idea would be a pie-menu like thing, so that accessing the menu items would involve certain directional movements of the cursor
[15:24]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	"go here, im that person, give this to that person/object, buy that"
[15:24]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Agree with Marv. Just stick the menu actions in an API, bind them to a proper gesture interface, and it might actually work.
[15:24]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	personally,
[15:24]	Charlette Proto: 	that is another thing Sig, gestures the user learns are just too far from the interface we have in comparison to using pir menus
[15:24]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	if you're going to do something whacky with the menu ?
[15:24]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	make the pie menu expand instead of replace itself
[15:24]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	e.g. moving out to an option adds another concentric circle to the pie menu
[15:25]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	then you can just hover over to navigate it instead of clicking
[15:25]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Just don't use the pie menu at all. It's the wrong interface for gesture computing.
[15:25]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	^then you're not really doing gestures, but giving subconcious doodle hints
[15:25]	Geneko Nemeth: 	As long as I Can still click south -south-southwest to inspect something.
[15:25]	Charlette Proto: 	hierarchical pie menus in my opinion are the only way to add gesture computing to our viewer
[15:26]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	hrm....
[15:26]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	one moment plz
[15:26]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	i has alternate method of presenting the pie menu
[15:26]	Gregorio Broadfoot: 	with an alternate input device it may become much easier to just trigger chat actions
[15:26]	Teravus Ousley: 	heh, how about a pie.. that opens up to another pie menu.. at an offset to the ege of the hypotenuse of the curve of the pie piece selected?
[15:26]	Gregorio Broadfoot: 	no screen based input needed
[15:26]	Gregorio Broadfoot: 	you interact with the device and it just does what you configured it to do
[15:27]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	http://blog.thejit.org/wp-content/jit-1.0a/examples/hypertree.html
[15:27]	Gregorio Broadfoot: 	e.g. step on back left square and avatar does the same
[15:27]	Gregorio Broadfoot: 	make sense?
[15:27]	Charlette Proto: 	yes precisely and the 8 item archaic version the viewer uses now needs to be replaced with dynamic layouts like Maya
[15:27]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Gregorio++
[15:27]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	^requires JS to be enabled
[15:27]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	http://blog.thejit.org/wp-content/jit-1.0a/examples/rgraph.html
[15:27]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	^similar but not as cool visually
[15:28]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I have no idea why people are still thinking "pie menu", when gestures done properly would bypass the mouse-oriented UI altogether.
[15:28]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yep. How about those special keyboard extras, that have a smaller grid of customizable keys?
[15:28]	Panacea Pangaea: 	I've seen examples of disambiguation technoques that might be more intutive than pie menus
[15:28]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Has anyone used those to do anything in SL before? Or in other apps/games, for that matter?
[15:28]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	Morgaine: have a look at the jit examples for alternate means of visualising a menu hierachy
[15:29]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Looking, Marv
[15:29]	Charlette Proto: 	conceptually the pie can readily accommodate icons and various glyphs relating to its functions (no the menu the viewer uses now)
[15:29]	Teravus Ousley: 	yes, just pet the screen, :D. It'll do what you want
[15:29]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehehe. Rub it the right way... ;)
[15:30]	Geneko Nemeth: 	The whole keyboard should have been customizable!
[15:30]	Charlette Proto: 	pie menu morgaine allows for MORE/LESS style control mapped to the gestures and lists like we use don't
[15:30]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Any other interesting devices you guys would like to use in SL? Or just think would be cool?
[15:30]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Joystick...
[15:31]	Jacek Antonelli: 	(Yeah Geneko, we really need customizable shortcuts. :( )
[15:31]	Teravus Ousley: 	foot pedals.. for rudders! :D
[15:31]	Geneko Nemeth: 	But have it drive the whole menu!
[15:31]	Aimee Trescothick: 	what about the joystick?
[15:31]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	Jacek I'd like to use MIDI keyboards to control puppeteering animation
[15:31]	Gregorio Broadfoot: 	camera and dance mat are my top two
[15:31]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	ya can use joysticks now
[15:31]	Aimee Trescothick: 	yup
[15:31]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Gesture interpretation was pretty sophisticated even back in the days of the first Palm with Graffitti. Now with all the extra power we have, the sky's the limit with gestures ... if you want to learn them.
[15:31]	Charlette Proto: 	most people objecting to pie menus have never looked into the advantages they bring and see them as just a different layout
[15:31]	Geneko Nemeth: 	And widgets and windows management with joystick.
[15:32]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	personally, i find having dual analog sticks to be far more intuitive than the idea of using a single multi-axis device (space navigator)
[15:32]	Panacea Pangaea: 	I saw some of the goodies that come with ipods ...
[15:32]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	http://signpostmarvmartin.blip.tv/file/1117080/
[15:32]	Panacea Pangaea: 	touch screen technology would be interesting
[15:32]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Not just movement or f(ycam.
[15:32]	Aimee Trescothick: 	have you tried it marv?
[15:32]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	I don't see the point, really
[15:32]	Aimee Trescothick: 	I was pretty sceptical till I got one
[15:33]	Charlette Proto: 	Morgaine the gestures I'm thinking of are ad-hock selection gestures not glyph like motion learned by the user
[15:33]	Aimee Trescothick: 	it's very natural
[15:33]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	i mean, yeah it'd be useful if i needed to type/fap while operating a camera
[15:33]	Charlette Proto: 	the Palm style gestures are another thing all together
[15:33]	Teravus Ousley: 	how about a clickwheel input? :D
[15:33]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	but as you can see from the video, being a gamer its far more intuitive to control things with two analog sticks
[15:34]	Teravus Ousley: 	remember that story from The Onion.. the Macbook ClickWheel
[15:34]	McCabe Maxsted waves at everyone 	McCabe Maxsted waves at everyone
[15:34]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehehe Teravus
[15:34]	Charlette Proto: 	that is the problem for people who don't get gesture computing and pie - they have never experimented with it
[15:34]	McCabe Maxsted: 	ahoy!
[15:34]	Aimee Trescothick: 	yeah, I guess if you're already used to that it's a fair point
[15:34]	Jacek Antonelli waves to McCabe 	Jacek Antonelli waves to McCabe
[15:34]	Morgaine Dinova gazes at the never-used USB-Nest joystick interface on the shelf. 	Morgaine Dinova gazes at the never-used USB-Nest joystick interface on the shelf.
[15:34]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hiya McCabe!
[15:34]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	i mean, even for non-gamers,
[15:34]	Gregorio Broadfoot: 	two joysticks, anyone old enough to remember robotron arcade game :-)
[15:34]	Aimee Trescothick: 	:D
[15:35]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	operating multiple axes with seperate control points seems far more intuitive than a single device
[15:35]	Aimee Trescothick: 	not having tried it :D
[15:35]	Roof Doors: 	Geneko Nemeth is at the door.
[15:35]	Charlette Proto: 	this discussion would be more prodictive in a Real Life™ boardroom for sure
[15:35]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	eh, someday I'll get around to combining mocap with a webcam to SL and then you'll all see. Just wait
[15:36]	Aimee Trescothick: 	heh
[15:36]	Teravus Ousley: 	I'm in agreement. For most gamers, two joysticks is normal these days.. like the Six Axis.. Ps2 controller.. and the Xbox360 controller
[15:36]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Sai will conque the world with mocap gestures!
[15:36]	Morgaine Dinova: 	A friend of mine has a visor-type cap thing that provides camera heading control, in 1st person.
[15:36]	Charlette Proto: 	a lot of the scepticism here appears to be arguing crosspurpose
[15:36]	McCabe Maxsted: 	(sorry for coming in late, but what's mocap?)
[15:36]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Motion capture
[15:36]	Jacek Antonelli: 	mocap = motion capture
[15:36]	McCabe Maxsted: 	ahhh
[15:36]	McCabe Maxsted: 	gotcha
[15:36]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Charlette: we're not trying to be productive, just imaginative :D
[15:37]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Haha
[15:37]	Charlette Proto: 	motion capture with a webcam is now possible
[15:37]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1qjxttnZLE
[15:37]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	downloaded that a few weeks ago.
[15:37]	Aimee Trescothick: 	TrackIR type thing Morgaine?
[15:37]	McCabe Maxsted was wondering why sai wanted to start an urban hat store 	McCabe Maxsted was wondering why sai wanted to start an urban hat store
[15:37]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yes, that's the exact one Aimeee
[15:37]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	simple iSight webcam works so-so
[15:37]	Charlette Proto: 	once again not suitable to conventional dropdown linear menus
[15:37]	Morgaine Dinova: 	And says its good too
[15:38]	Gregorio Broadfoot: 	the biggest installed base has to be webcams unless we you can capture data from existing game controllers
[15:38]	Aimee Trescothick: 	yeah, their SDK is closed unfortunately :(
[15:38]	McCabe Maxsted: 	ooh I've seen that! Awesome stuff
[15:38]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Ew :-(
[15:38]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	Gregorio look at that movie
[15:38]	Aimee Trescothick: 	otherwise I'd look at doing that, there's a free equivalent called FreeTrack or something like that
[15:38]	Aimee Trescothick: 	but not as good
[15:38]	Gregorio Broadfoot: 	sorry I didn't have my IM log window open and missed the URL
[15:39]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	it basically does simple motion detection within a grid of spots
[15:39]	Gregorio Broadfoot: 	can you input it again?
[15:39]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1qjxttnZLE
[15:39]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Aimee: coo! /me googles
[15:39]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	hrm
[15:39]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	there's a thought
[15:39]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah, a lot can be done with webcams and the right software. Facial expression detection, eye tracking, hand gesture recognition, motion tracking, etc.
[15:39]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	and each spot is linked to a midi key or chord or whatever
[15:39]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	couldn't llTakeControls() be expanded with params for joystick axes/buttons ?
[15:39]	Aimee Trescothick: 	hmm, freetrack is wrong
[15:39]	Charlette Proto: 	mocap like gravity based eg Wii Remote gesture capturing needs a suitable UI to suplement the conventional dropdowns
[15:40]	Aimee Trescothick: 	or maybe not lol
[15:40]	Morgaine Dinova: 	No, seems right Aimee. GPL but only for Windows, grrrr
[15:40]	McCabe Maxsted: 	haha, the rare windows only gpl
[15:40]	Aimee Trescothick: 	yeah, I'd be VERY interested in porting it if possible and I found the time though
[15:41]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	That stuff is done using the Quartz COmposer visual DSP programming environment. THe source is open, but it looks like a plate of spaghetti
[15:41]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	and the text version is even more meaningless
[15:41]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hehe
[15:41]	Charlette Proto: 	mocap unlike Wii Remote needs lots of CPU grunt which is in short supply when running the Second Life™ viewer
[15:42]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	hrm
[15:42]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	from Philip's blog post:
[15:42]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	"We’re not done with this project! We also intend to update the SL viewer to read its map tiles in the same way as the web map, meaning that you will be able to zoom and move around on the in-world map in a manner similar to the webmap, with much better performance than before. Look for a viewer release candidate next with those changes."
[15:42]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	qc uses the video, which is probably even more short
[15:42]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	seems like they're finally getting around to replacing the world map with a web-based version
[15:42]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Gotta ask yourself who would write GPL code in Delphi 7. Good sense of humour ;-)
[15:42]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	thats only taken what, 2 years ?
[15:42]	Aimee Trescothick: 	woah, that's interesting
[15:42]	Ciaran Laval: 	The Map looks good
[15:42]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	Signpost, isn't the world map cap based anyway?
[15:43]	Aimee Trescothick: 	seeing as I've just been working on XUIifying the minimap lol
[15:43]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	I remember having convos with Jeff about the world map
[15:43]	Aimee Trescothick: 	don't think I've found a more neglected piece of code in the viewer :D
[15:43]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	Day Oh wrote an LSL client last year to grab the worldmap and display inworld
[15:43]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	the basic gist was that a lot of the problems they had was due to them having to generate JPEG and JPEG2K versions of the same images
[15:44]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	one bug they've gotten rid of with the S3 migration is that stupid "y=1279-y" thing
[15:44]	Charlette Proto: 	I agree the world map in AjaxLife works better than what our viewer has
[15:44]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	also,
[15:44]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	since they're not using their stupid internal proxies any more,
[15:45]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	your cache won't get ballsed up by the incorrectly configured ETag generators
[15:45]	Charlette Proto: 	anyway, the technicalities of the map are a bit off the subject here
[15:45]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Indeed
[15:45]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hm, do we need to update imprudence or is it behind the scenes changes?
[15:45]	Aimee Trescothick: 	yup, just a little lol
[15:45]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Let's talk about awesome input devices :D
[15:45]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	McCabe: I would imagine if they switch to a web-based version on the RC, it'd be based on uBrowser
[15:46]	Charlette Proto: 	lets think of the UI functions in context of gesture computing for now to actually get something done
[15:46]	SignpostMarv Martin puts in a feature suggestion to add user-scripts to the web map :-P 	SignpostMarv Martin puts in a feature suggestion to add user-scripts to the web map :-P
[15:46]	Jacek Antonelli: 	What sort of things would they be useful for? We've covered stuff like chat/animation gestures, posing the avatar, and such. What else?
[15:46]	Teravus Ousley: 	heh
[15:46]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Camera as well
[15:46]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Awesome way out inputs? Hmmmm ....
[15:46]	Aimee Trescothick: 	how about using my graphics tablet to manipulate terrain
[15:47]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Ooh, that would be fun :D
[15:47]	Ciaran Laval: 	Good point Aimee
[15:47]	Aimee Trescothick: 	bit more mundane than weird devices I know
[15:47]	Teravus Ousley: 	user scripts----> function stealSessionID()
[15:47]	Charlette Proto: 	all UI functions need to mapped to a gesture suitable selection mechanism like the pie menu (sorry the only way I see it happen)
[15:47]	Teravus Ousley: 	now that would be great Aimee
[15:47]	Morgaine Dinova: 	OK, how amount camera zoom operated by eye aperture? ;-)
[15:47]	Morgaine Dinova: 	about*
[15:47]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehehe
[15:47]	SignpostMarv Martin would like to see haptics controllers for dynamic generation of sculpties	SignpostMarv Martin would like to see haptics controllers for dynamic generation of sculpties
[15:48]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	Siggnpost, my understanding is that they are switching to qtwebKit fo rthe internal browser
[15:48]	Charlette Proto: 	tablets are another beast yet again but very different fro physical computing (Wii) which is getting very well deserved attention lately
[15:48]	Jacek Antonelli: 	How about building? Maybe moving prims around with a wiimote in each hand? :D
[15:48]	Charlette Proto: 	gosh, UI forst before we start dreaming what else gestures could do
[15:48]	McCabe Maxsted: 	like mickey in fantasia :D
[15:49]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	Jacek: scaling by dragging the wiimote and nunchuck away from each other :-P
[15:49]	Jacek Antonelli picks up physical cube, tosses it 	Jacek Antonelli picks up physical cube, tosses it
[15:49]	Charlette Proto: 	no Nunchuck serves as the second Wii Remote
[15:49]	Aimee Trescothick: 	heh, well, you can move prims with the SpaceNav, but it's really not all that useful, besides the ability to physically throw stuff
[15:49]	Charlette Proto: 	both hands are tracked
[15:50]	Aimee Trescothick: 	might be more useful if the joystick build mode had snap to grid though
[15:50]	Jacek Antonelli: 	And a whiteboard system would be great in SL. Doodle on your prim walls :D
[15:50]	Charlette Proto: 	the popularity of Wii demonstrates (to me) that the users are ready for physical computing
[15:50]	Ciaran Laval: 	That is so needed Jacek
[15:50]	Gregorio Broadfoot: 	++ on whiteboard
[15:50]	Aimee Trescothick: 	yeah, totally, I'd loveto be able to use a Wacom Cintiq and draw directly on stuff
[15:50]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Nah, not worth tackling whiteboards properly in SL, only 50 million people want them, might as well ignore it.
[15:51]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehehe
[15:51]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	true whiteboard needs a more P2p mode between participating clients
[15:51]	Ciaran Laval: 	lol
[15:51]	Aimee Trescothick: 	paint terrain textures in place with the pen, rather than the psuedo-random blending we have now
[15:52]	Ciaran Laval: 	Draw a moustache on your friends when they go AFK
[15:52]	McCabe Maxsted loves that idea! 	McCabe Maxsted loves that idea!
[15:52]	Gregorio Broadfoot: 	synchronous collaboration (aka both people affect UI at the same time) is a super fun thing
[15:52]	Charlette Proto: 	whiteboards need to be considered in order to extent the collaborative possiblities of Second Life™ - currently it is next to useless
[15:52]	Aimee Trescothick: 	create land contours with the pressure sensitivity
[15:52]	Gregorio Broadfoot: 	sorry for the nood question but can two avatars push an object at the same time?
[15:52]	Aimee Trescothick: 	then draw on a path
[15:52]	McCabe Maxsted: 	inworld texturing through your tablet would be awesome for objects too
[15:52]	Aimee Trescothick: 	sketch out a lawn
[15:52]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	oh, btw
[15:52]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I think if there were one single thing that if LL implemented properly using a dedicated high-speed special whiteboard prim that would make everyone in business and academia and software love them to death, whiteboards would be it.
[15:52]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	random off-topic question
[15:52]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	still needs P2P-ish mode to do any kind of sophisticated collaboration
[15:53]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	anyone think it'd be handy to have Gears support in uBrowser ?
[15:53]	Aimee Trescothick: 	realXtend have VNC integration right?
[15:53]	Panacea Pangaea: 	the pressure sensitivity of tablet pens could lead to interesting effects too
[15:53]	Lower Deck Doors: Bela Andretti is at the door. 	Lower Deck Doors: Bela Andretti is at the door.
[15:54]	SignpostMarv Martin is using a graphics tablet at the moment 	SignpostMarv Martin is using a graphics tablet at the moment
[15:54]	Teravus Ousley: 	Some pens, such as the intuos3 have tilt detection and rotation detection as well :D
[15:54]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	I don't think a tablet can be used for much currently
[15:54]	Aimee Trescothick: 	RRR are doing some sort of in-world collaborative desktop stuff too in the immersive workspaces product, though I'm not sure what method they're using
[15:54]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	they're more for working on 2D planes, not full 3D
[15:54]	Charlette Proto: 	tablet computers not CAD like tablets are of greater relevance now
[15:54]	Aimee Trescothick: 	yeah, I have an intuos2
[15:54]	Aimee Trescothick: 	I think it has tilt, but not rotation
[15:55]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	once we get gorup IM defined in the OGP we can start experimenting with true collaborative tools
[15:55]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	multi-touch computing would be more interesting, on the other hand
[15:55]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	window, prim scaling
[15:55]	Gregorio Broadfoot: 	you may want to separate input devices that give you added flexibility for input (e.g. tablet) from those that make you move your body
[15:55]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	batch-select/de-select avatars to send content to
[15:55]	Aimee Trescothick: 	next purchase is going to be a Wacom Cintiq :)
[15:55]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek, imagine how much time we'd save on design if we could doodle 2D collaboratively, at realtime FPS ...
[15:55]	Panacea Pangaea: 	See the following from about 0.25 onwards: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCUh6Wk6Luc&feature=related
[15:55]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehehe
[15:56]	Aimee Trescothick: 	mmm, multitouch would be nice
[15:56]	Gregorio Broadfoot: 	e.g. I would feel better dancing by moving bymoving my body and having input captured by camera if I know the person the other end is doing the same
[15:56]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	use your fingers + thumb on left hand to select avatars, toss an inventory item in the direction of that hand to transfer the inventory
[15:56]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Aimee: *jealous* I only have an old Graphire 2! hehe
[15:56]	Aimee Trescothick: 	:D
[15:56]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	flick across the screen to physically nudge an object
[15:56]	Gregorio Broadfoot: 	if I believe that the avatar's motion is closely related to my/their physical movement it could bring a whole added level of "virtuality"
[15:56]	Gregorio Broadfoot: 	wii would provide that too
[15:56]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	multi-touch for avatar editing
[15:56]	Teravus Ousley: 	heh, I have to grab a new pen... mind got smashed when I moved last
[15:56]	Chaffro Schoonmaker: 	thats pretty cool Pan
[15:57]	Gregorio Broadfoot: 	force feedback would be even more awesome for tying the physical to the virtual
[15:57]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	i think sculpting your avatar with your fingers would be more intuitive than using sliders
[15:57]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah. I'd love to be able to wave my hand or wag my finger at people, hehehe
[15:57]	Morgaine Dinova: 	lol
[15:57]	Charlette Proto: 	the old desktop CAD tablets are really irrelevant in our context - I'm thinking of tablet comuters (screen is the tablet surface)
[15:57]	Teravus Ousley: 	'on-demand' Animation generation...
[15:57]	Aimee Trescothick: 	err, no they're not
[15:57]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	yeah, multi-touch would be more intuitive pupeteering
[15:57]	Aimee Trescothick: 	and the Wacom Cintiq is a screen based tablet
[15:58]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	theramin-like mocap is the ultimate of course
[15:58]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Not sure it's the ultimate, but it would be cool :D
[15:58]	Gregorio Broadfoot: 	I think the ideal is to not even look at the UI elements on teh screen
[15:58]	Charlette Proto: 	Aimee I'm thinking of the consumer market and tablet PCs is what they will be buying now not CAD tablets
[15:58]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Oh dear, I think the bank account's going to suffer a bit after this discussion.
[15:58]	Gregorio Broadfoot: 	you just look at your input device and the avatars responses to it
[15:58]	Teravus Ousley: 	yes. close your eyes and have the client just do things.. doesn't matter what.. you're eyes are closed
[15:58]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	wel there's already an EEG input device
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hrmm, that reminds me of the new mocap suit that Stroker Serpentine was developing. Might be fun to control your whole avatar
[15:59]	Aimee Trescothick: 	sooo the thousands of people with existing tablets become obsolete lol
[15:59]	Aimee Trescothick: 	yeah, right
[15:59]	Charlette Proto: 	consumer market is firmly moving towards Physical Computing deveices (Wii) and tablet computing now and we need to harness the capabilities of thise devices
[15:59]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	There is. Prototyped in SL for therapy for quadrapeligics
[15:59]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	now available for Playstation I think
[15:59]	Charlette Proto: 	who cares about antique devices
[15:59]	Charlette Proto: 	I'm talking where we are going now
[15:59]	Aimee Trescothick: 	err, they're owners?
[16:00]	Aimee Trescothick: 	*their
[16:00]	Charlette Proto: 	who cares - these are the past
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehehe
[16:00]	Morgaine Dinova: 	But the ULTIMATE controller is of course ..... a butterfly. http://xkcd.com/378/
[16:00]	Aimee Trescothick: 	I'm sure Wacom would be interested to hear they're about to go out of business
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli: 	True, Morgaine XD
[16:00]	McCabe Maxsted: 	:D
[16:00]	Charlette Proto: 	Wacom will make tablet computers period
[16:00]	Aimee Trescothick: 	lol
[16:00]	Teravus Ousley: 	I <3 Wacom :D
[16:01]	Jacek Antonelli: 	We're at the end of the hour, so thanks for coming, everyone! If you're interesting in this user interface and user experience stuff, we've got a group where I send out notices of the topic each week -- secondlife:///app/group/f55e5dac-c5b3-c3c4-4b11-d43a6ae83903/about
[16:01]	Aimee Trescothick: 	you might want to tell them that
[16:01]	Charlette Proto: 	< not interested in the past
[16:01]	Gregorio Broadfoot: 	thanks! that was fun
[16:01]	Ciaran Laval: 	You should be interested in the past, it helps steer the future
[16:01]	Aimee Trescothick me will quite happily be using her graphics tablet well into the future 	Aimee Trescothick me will quite happily be using her graphics tablet well into the future
[16:01]	Jacek Antonelli: 	You can also use the group chat for UX chatter and such :D
[16:02]	Gregorio Broadfoot: 	btw I'm prepping a suggestions from noob e-mail which I'll send to the e-mail list soon
[16:02]	Charlette Proto: 	I only concern myself with where things are going not where we came from when it comes to devices
[16:02]	Morgaine Dinova: 	The past is useful for knowing where not to go ;-)
[16:02]	Chaffro Schoonmaker: 	so in conclusion: I need to strap a VR helmet to a RL rabbit to move in SL in 2 years time...got it
[16:02]	Aimee Trescothick: 	lol
[16:02]	Gregorio Broadfoot: 	awesome stuff guys, too much fun to do regular work :-)
[16:02]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Haha, that's it in a nutshell, Chaffro ;)
[16:02]	Chaffro Schoonmaker: 	fab!
[16:02]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yeah, great topic, hehe
[16:02]	Panacea Pangaea: 	:-)
[16:02]	Chaffro Schoonmaker: 	I'm off to the pet shop!
[16:02]	Jacek Antonelli giggles 	Jacek Antonelli giggles
[16:02]	Charlette Proto: 	byee Chaffro
[16:02]	Chaffro Schoonmaker: 	byeeee!
[16:03]	McCabe Maxsted: 	take care chaffro
[16:03]	Panacea Pangaea: 	I gotta go too :-)
[16:03]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Thanks for coming, everyone! Hope to see you next week!
[16:03]	Chaffro Schoonmaker: 	see you all!
[16:03]	Panacea Pangaea: 	Bye folks :-)