Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2014.04.08

Simulator_User_Group
Prev 2014.04.01	Next 2014.04.15
== List of Speakers ==
Baker Linden 	Draconis Neurocam
Jenna Felton 	Lucia Nightfire
Martinrj Fayray 	Mona Eberhardt
Nalates Urriah 	Qie Niangao
Ron Khondji 	Simon Linden
Tankmaster Finesmith	Whirly Fizzle
Yuzuru Jewell 	
== Transcript ==
[12:01] Simon Linden: Let's see ... the release news is pretty light this week because we're not updating anything
[12:01] Simon Linden: I'm hoping the next server maintenance release will get through QA this week and be on an RC next Wednesday
[12:02] Simon Linden: I've been putting more finishing touches on the group chat code ... it seems every time I look deeper I find something to fix, which is both good and scary
[12:02] Simon Linden: Kelly or Baker - do you guys have any news?
[12:03] Mona Eberhardt: I have a question, guys: Where's Nyx? He hasn't showed up for two meetings in a row. :/
[12:03] Simon Linden: I'm guessing that means "no", so the table's open for discussion
[12:03] Simon Linden: I'm not sure, Mona, but I'll pass that to him
[12:04] Baker Linden: I have some news I suppose
[12:04] Baker Linden: I'll be working with maestro this week
[12:04] Baker Linden: to try to get the groupban services and backend stuff grid-wide on aditi
[12:05] Mona Eberhardt: I'll start with my sounding like a broken record. 1. Any roadmap for LSL control of materials? 2. Any roadmap for LSL control of projector parameters (texture/FOV/Focus/Ambiance)?
[12:05] Baker Linden: I have a handful of smallish bugs to finish up, and then I'll look at my options for development viewers and such
[12:05] Whirly Fizzle: Yay. getting closer
[12:05] Simon Linden: Mona - Nyx sends apologies about missing the meetings, and says "last week was a scheduled interruption, this week was unscheduled. UG will resume next week."
[12:05] Baker Linden: so group ban will be grid-wise soon (I hope, depending on the amount of releases in the pipe)
[12:06] Mona Eberhardt: As long as he's ok, Simon, it's ok with me.
[12:06] Baker Linden: and then after we see there's no big issues, we'll get that pushed out to agni
[12:06] Baker Linden: :)
[12:06] Baker Linden: that's it for me
[12:06] Simon Linden: yes, all's good
[12:06] Qie Niangao: (+1 Mona re broken record timelines) (and glad to hear Nyx is okay -- some of us were getting a little worried)
[12:07] Simon Linden: I don't have a roadmap for that stuff Mona but it's definitely up high on the list of things we'd like to do, particularly the materials LSL functions
[12:08] Mona Eberhardt: I can tell you one thing, Simon: Give me LSL control of projectors, and I can pull off some pretty impressive stuff.
[12:09] Qie Niangao: Not sure which I'd want more, Materials & Projectors, or eXperience Permissions. Sure would like to know better what to expect of XP.
[12:09] Mona Eberhardt: Experience Permissions? What's that, Qie?
[12:09] Nalates Urriah: Advanced Experience Tools was the more official name...
[12:10] Qie Niangao: hmmm... it had another name, too... advanced something-or-other... like llTeleportAgent, only not so neutered.
[12:10] Lucia Nightfire: I'd like to know what % of the EXP functions are gaming oriented and what will really help us, heh.
[12:10] Simon Linden: If you can put a good description of that in the jira (I'm pretty sure there's one, if not, we need it) for projectors, that would help describe why it's worth the time, Mona
[12:10] Nalates Urriah: I would love some idea of where the Lab feels they are in the project.
[12:10] Qie Niangao: that too
[12:11] Simon Linden: I dont' have any news or progress to report on the XP functions, unfortuantely. I know they've been working on polishing it up, but there's a lot to work out (or I'm clueless) about how it's to be released
[12:12] Whirly Fizzle: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SCR-163 (New PrimitiveParams flag: PRIM_PROJECTOR) & https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-1497 (Feature Request: LSL commands for light projectors)
[12:14] Mona Eberhardt: Simon, before I start with projectors, I want to ask a quick question. Let's say I set a prim to be a projector - everything: texture, FOV, Focus, Ambiance. If I add a script to it that switches the light on and off according to the sun's position, will it still be a projector or will it revert to being a bog-standard omnidirectional light source?
[12:14] Simon Linden: It looks like the big LSL-projector one is SCR-163
[12:15] Draconis Neurocam: Didn't the function to follow the sun sort of break with the Windlight implementation and was never really fixed, or am I mistaken?
[12:15] Simon Linden: Mona, I have no clue about that. I'd have to dig into the code and see what's actually happening and how we really determine what is or isn't a projector
[12:15] Simon Linden: The sun position info is really wacky
[12:16] Draconis Neurocam: It would be nice if that was all unified.
[12:17] Qie Niangao: But Mona, we're just talking about toggling the PRIM_POINT_LIGHT property, right? Either it works or it doesn't.
[12:17] Simon Linden: I looked into the sun data once and it was a mess ... I could tell if I tried to fix it there were things that were going to break
[12:17] Mona Eberhardt: So, are the other parameters unaffected? :/
[12:18] Draconis Neurocam: I think a lot of it is unusable as it is anyway though Simon.
[12:18] Simon Linden: yeah, it's just never reached to top of the pile in importance either
[12:19] Mona Eberhardt: There were other, more pressing things, I guess...
[12:19] Mona Eberhardt: Maybe local lights were seen as more of a gimmick for those with high-end GPUs? :/
[12:19] Simon Linden: So, I realize this is completely unscientific, but which would be better ... the mateirals LSL support, or the projectors?
[12:20] Tankmaster Finesmith: fixing chat lag? :P
[12:20] Tankmaster Finesmith: /meruns
[12:20] Mona Eberhardt: Materials first, then projectors.
[12:20] Martinrj Fayray: fixing sim crossings
[12:20] Simon Linden: Group chat is already on the top of my list :P
[12:21] Draconis Neurocam: You need the viewer to be set to the same way to see both. so it is kind of a coin toss, because one kind of wants the other for the sake of intuitiveness.
[12:21] Mona Eberhardt: Martin, the way to fix sim crossings in SL is to put up borders and checkpoints. Like checkpoint Charlie. :P
[12:21] Martinrj Fayray: and new lsl support for generating money... like llSendL$toMartinRJ()
[12:21] Martinrj Fayray: hehe
[12:21] Simon Linden: That was my gut feel too, Mona -- and also internally I've had reqests for that materials support from some of the people working on SL content
[12:21] Mona Eberhardt: Yes.
[12:22] Mona Eberhardt: But really, SL architects and interior designers would do you quite a few NSFW favours if you gave them the ability to provide projectors (spotlights etc) controlled by a house control panel.
[12:22] Qie Niangao: Mona, the projector properties stay unaffected by toggling the point_light param.
[12:23] Mona Eberhardt: So, when the light switches off, it remains a projector when it gets switched back on?
[12:23] Qie Niangao: yep
[12:23] Qie Niangao: this cube here does it on touch.
[12:23] Qie Niangao: the red circle on the floor is the projected light (when its on)
[12:24] Mona Eberhardt: OK. Looks like interior designers and SL architects won't need to go down on their knees... :P
[12:24] Mona Eberhardt: Qie: Nice. And neat.
[12:24] Mona Eberhardt: Getting back to LSL control of projectors, Simon...
[12:24] Mona Eberhardt: I have a crazy idea.
[12:24] Simon Linden: ?
[12:25] Mona Eberhardt: An SL version of those big-arse mechanical-optical planetariums.
[12:25] Martinrj Fayray: with a maximum of 6 or 7 projectors?
[12:25] Mona Eberhardt: Rotating and projecting star textures on a dome, changing them over the course of the show...
[12:26] Mona Eberhardt: Is that the maximum, Martin? :(
[12:26] Martinrj Fayray: what's the current maximum in the client?
[12:26] Mona Eberhardt: Because I have a room with five.
[12:26] Draconis Neurocam: If you have the advanced lighting model on you don't have the old limitation of the opengl lights if I remember right.
[12:26] Qie Niangao: with advanced lighting, I don't know that there's a limit as there used to be
[12:26] Mona Eberhardt: Ah.
[12:26] Mona Eberhardt: Anyway, Simon - wouldn't that idea be super cool?
[12:26] Qie Niangao: on the other hand, might lag the viewer to have *too* many
[12:26] Lucia Nightfire: yeah, cause I had liek 40 in one app I was using once
[12:27] Whirly Fizzle: I don't think there is a limit is there?
[12:27] Qie Niangao: lotsa stars in the sky, fish in the sea, etc.
[12:27] Lucia Nightfire: laser light shows
[12:27] Simon Linden: hmmm ... so what's the worst thing that abusing that would cause? Lots of updates about the objects, and maybe giving the viewer a lot of projectors?
[12:28] Lucia Nightfire: I wanted to make a lighted digital clock too, still need to get on that
[12:28] Jenna Felton: could be a nice griefing bomb, a linkset of 256 projectors connected like the disco ball and trown atround by tennis ball shooter in sandboxes :)
[12:28] Lucia Nightfire: Jenna, you already get that with certain sculpt lagger setups
[12:29] Clockwork Puppet (fenix.eldritch): But at least that would be easy enough to turn off viewer side, right?
[12:29] Draconis Neurocam: People need to be able to turn on the advanced lighting model at all for it to even be an abuse case. Because otherwise they will just act like normal lights.
[12:29] Mona Eberhardt: Here's what I had in mind, Simon. An SL version of this: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/Planetariet.jpg
[12:29] Lucia Nightfire: imo, it doesn't add much weight, heh
[12:29] Qie Niangao: I think *maybe* they'd want to throttle the rate of changing of projectors, if it swamped the viewer to render it all... seems better to be throttle viewer-side, though, unless the update packets were a problem themselves.
[12:29] Nalates Urriah: A disco ball might be fun...
[12:29] Simon Linden: but that's not really anything new that the LSL functions would enable, right? You could make a huge object or shooter with projector projectiles now, right?
[12:29] Mona Eberhardt: Throttling sounds like a good measure, Qie.
[12:29] Draconis Neurocam: Yeah, the only difference would be, that you could control the options.
[12:30] Draconis Neurocam: Rather than having them set from the build menu.
[12:30] Simon Linden: The viewer would have to be able to handle an overloaded scene, I think
[12:30] Jenna Felton: that is a nice platetarium thing. i loved to go in planetarium in childhood :)
[12:30] Jenna Felton: @Mona
[12:31] Simon Linden: I dont' think the update message rate is an issue ... you can change other options that cause updates from the simulator already
[12:31] Simon Linden: I'm just trying to think through how it could be abused
[12:31] Qie Niangao: yeah. and yeah, could do everything already, just with extra annoyance of rezzing separate prims to have the different effects.
[12:31] Lucia Nightfire: adult imagery is the main abuse vector that I've seen, nto quantity
[12:32] Simon Linden: right, and there are plenty of ways to do that already
[12:32] Simon Linden: Well, that's good ... it doesn't seem like it would add any new ways to cause trouble
[12:32] Martinrj Fayray: hrm right, the old before-alm limits don't apply to projectors, I just tested with 700+
[12:33] Mona Eberhardt: And SL photography would benefit by LSL-controlled projectors.
[12:33] Simon Linden: That's true, there are already some sophisticated light systems for photos and this would make them more interesting
[12:33] Qie Niangao: yes, *especially* photography. Lighting a big part of storing a scene for future use.
[12:34] Jenna Felton: The disco mde by Maestro on Adity meeting place, uses 3 projectors?
[12:34] Lucia Nightfire: 2 afaik
[12:34] Jenna Felton: i was guessing how he dit that :) thank you Lucy
[12:36] Qie Niangao: flickering fluorescent desk lamp -- done with projectors and no scripts.
[12:37] Nalates Urriah: Qie, animated texture?
[12:37] Jenna Felton: cool idea
[12:37] Qie Niangao: yep. projected through an animated texture.
[12:37] Lucia Nightfire: the only abuse you have with light is what you get occasionally with the 9001 trillion lumen face light setup, heh
[12:37] Lucia Nightfire: which causes brush fires
[12:37] Martinrj Fayray: lol
[12:38] Lucia Nightfire: which I rarely see any way
[12:38] Mona Eberhardt: And also has the tendency to blind people...
[12:38] Simon Linden: not to mention the sun burn
[12:38] Clockwork Puppet (fenix.eldritch): Question for Simon, once this topic concludes..
[12:38] Lucia Nightfire: its doen, turn it over
[12:38] Lucia Nightfire: *done
[12:39] Simon Linden: go ahead, Clockwork
[12:39] Clockwork Puppet (fenix.eldritch): Are the various movements speeds, jump height, etc. of the Agent hard coded into the physics engine? Would it be feasible to allow them to be modified by lsl calls, like the Animation Overrides?
[12:41] Simon Linden: They get enforced in different ways ... some are baked into our code, others are configurable
[12:41] Simon Linden: What kind of limits do you want to change?
[12:42] Martinrj Fayray: he wants to travel mainland with light speed :)
[12:42] Lucia Nightfire: or make movement oriented to height
[12:42] Clockwork Puppet (fenix.eldritch): Well, it started with a desire to make a seated avatar not add its physics shape to vehicles. But then expanded to giving people control over their agent size beyond the shape sliders (for things like tinyies)
[12:43] Clockwork Puppet (fenix.eldritch): And then finally, I though going that, fat, it would be cool to also alter run/wark/flying speeds to match. That could have many applications, like altered flight speeds when "swimming" to name one example
[12:44] Clockwork Puppet (fenix.eldritch): *going that far (not fat)
[12:44] Draconis Neurocam: Couldn't you move the physics shape around on the avatar with sit position offsets and clever use of animations?
[12:44] Clockwork Puppet (fenix.eldritch): Not in all cases, Draconis
[12:44] Valentina (valentina426): Why cant I see anyone?
[12:44] Clockwork Puppet (fenix.eldritch): I'm working on some super small vehicles where the av is literally bigger than the whole craft
[12:45] Lucia Nightfire: you've stumbled upon the Gods valentine
[12:45] Draconis Neurocam: Ah
[12:45] Lucia Nightfire: lol
[12:45] Valentina (valentina426) whispers: HUH?
[12:45] Clockwork Puppet (fenix.eldritch): Using small vehicles to fake a bigger arena
[12:45] Draconis Neurocam: Yeah that wouldn't work.
[12:46] Valentina (valentina426): I am so losted why cant I see anyone here
[12:46] Valentina (valentina426): lost*
[12:46] Lucia Nightfire: kf movement would fake it
[12:46] Simon Linden: What do you see, Valentina- anything?
[12:46] Valentina (valentina426): nno one one here its empty
[12:46] Rin (raven.juno): Valentina, you are inside. we are all on the roof.
[12:46] Ron Khondji: Go to the roof
[12:46] Simon Linden: That would do it
[12:47] Rin (raven.juno): Ah the joys of camera control.
[12:47] Lucia Nightfire: SL has dctp now, btw, hehe
[12:47] Lucia Nightfire: or rather v3
[12:47] Simon Linden: On the physics stuff, we've bounced around ideas like that trying to see if we could get more interesting usage from the fixed sized regions we have. We've never come up with a design that didn't seem to have really big problems
[12:48] Jenna Felton: what is dctp?
[12:48] Tankmaster Finesmith: double click to tp
[12:48] Valentina (valentina426): ah ha! thanks
[12:48] Lucia Nightfire: dctp = double click teleport
[12:48] Jenna Felton: ahh
[12:49] Nalates Urriah: DCTP is great until you hit a region that has tp set to a landing point.... ;/
[12:49] Qie Niangao: damn. I was so hoping it was Detective Conan Translation Project.
[12:49] Lucia Nightfire: yeah, hopefully that parcel tp routing feature request will go through
[12:49] Jenna Felton: hehe Qie, i found the same result
[12:49] Simon Linden: yeah Nal, that bug is in our queue
[12:50] Qie Niangao: :p
[12:50] Nalates Urriah: That will be a nice4 fix to have.
[12:50] Tankmaster Finesmith: wish now i had filed that request months ago when i thought of it :P
[12:50] Lucia Nightfire: it will be a parcel owner allowed addition
[12:51] Whirly Fizzle: OOoh! we are getting https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-5222 then?
[12:51] Whirly Fizzle: Tank, go make your issue public :P
[12:51] Lucia Nightfire: someday maybe
[12:51] Clockwork Puppet (fenix.eldritch): I see. So I suppose there's not need to file a jira feature for that then, Simon?
[12:51] Tankmaster Finesmith: i thought i filed it after that
[12:51] Clockwork Puppet (fenix.eldritch): Since it's already been considered
[12:51] Simon Linden: I'm not sure how it's going to sort out .. .it's kind of an ugly conflict between having control of the TP arrivals ... which makes sense ... and the fact the dctp is really just moving around and not a full TP
[12:52] Draconis Neurocam: Cant you handle it with a different packet or something?
[12:52] Tankmaster Finesmith: done, public now
[12:52] Whirly Fizzle: Cools
[12:52] Simon Linden: I'd really rather avoid that ... we might have to bend the rules a bit so between-region TPs always go to the landing point, while inside-region TPs are free to go anywhere. I'm not sure how bad that would be
[12:53] Tankmaster Finesmith: its not a llmove either, right?
[12:53] Whirly Fizzle: I think thats okay. I don't mind landing at the landing point as long as I can dctp once on the region
[12:53] Simon Linden: Within the same region, it does boil down to a move instead of a "real" tp
[12:54] Draconis Neurocam: It would be even nicer if there was a check if the sims were physically connected.
[12:54] Tankmaster Finesmith: right, but it has to be optional for the region owner, cus role playing would not work well if you could dbl click anywhere
[12:54] Whirly Fizzle: yeah
[12:54] Nalates Urriah: My real problem with it is the surprise. I never know if the have 'able to tp' disabled until after I try.
[12:54] Simon Linden: Right, it would still be odd at a crossing when you dctp a few meters and fly to the new region landing point
[12:54] Whirly Fizzle: ..and then you get thrown to the LP & GRRRRR
[12:55] Simon Linden: YOu can walk into a region like that and not get sent to the LP
[12:55] Tankmaster Finesmith: but, anything is better than it is now :D
[12:55] Nalates Urriah: Good point Simon
[12:56] Lucia Nightfire: if you're a group member on group owned parcels with a LP, you only go to the LP on the first remote tp in then you ignore teh LP thereafter, which is why I made that ref in teh jira for the desired behaviour
[12:56] Simon Linden: yeah, that would be an odd case at the edge if we go with the intra vs inner TP rule change, but it's the best one I can think of now that wouldn't require a viewer update
[12:57] Tankmaster Finesmith: oh we dont mind viewer updates :P
[12:57] Draconis Neurocam: Though I suppose theoretically it would be even better if the check was also for if physically connected, and under the same owner, because I imagine there are some sims who would rather not be next to each other but have no other choice.
[12:57] Jenna Felton: would be cool when the llTeleportAgent functions would be able to ignore the landing points
[12:57] Tankmaster Finesmith: our support loves viewer updates, right whirly? :D
[12:57] Lucia Nightfire: it would be cool if SCR-382 was fixed
[12:57] Draconis Neurocam: Yeah I agree Lucy.
[12:57] Lucia Nightfire: so using those functions won't break my attached scripts
[12:58] Rin (raven.juno): I agree parcel owners should still be able to toggle this option, because a lot of land owners do not want people going into places they are not meant to be, thus why they turn teleport routing on in the first place :<
[12:58] Jenna Felton: yes that too, Lucy
[12:58] Jenna Felton: although i have not tested that issue for weeks, but as you mention it, it should be broken stil
[12:59] Lucia Nightfire: tp routing won't stop child 2 main agent tp, tp lures, or logins to teh parcel, btw
[12:59] Simon Linden: SCR-382 is fixed in the next server update
[12:59] Lucia Nightfire: which one?
[12:59] Whirly Fizzle: OOoh!
[12:59] Simon Linden: ... hopefully RC next week
[13:00] Lucia Nightfire: please explicitly list that fix if it is
[13:00] Lucia Nightfire: I'd liek to test
[13:00] Lucia Nightfire: also
[13:00] Simon Linden: aka BUG-5533
[13:00] Lucia Nightfire: what server version on aditi is it?
[13:00] Lucia Nightfire: and what regions are runnign it
[13:00] Nalates Urriah: HOw is the current RC looking? Think it will roll next week?
[13:00] Simon Linden: Let me see ... it just went to QA so ti should be on Aditi somewhere
[13:01] Jenna Felton: wow cool
[13:01] Lucia Nightfire: gottta get testing in so I can have my apps ready for it when its fully on agni
[13:02] Jenna Felton: me too :)
[13:02] Simon Linden: Right now it's only on Annelie on Aditi
[13:02] Jenna Felton: thank you for sharing that Simon
[13:02] Lucia Nightfire: hopefully it has public scripts active
[13:02] Lucia Nightfire: and allows public access, heh
[13:03] Simon Linden: I don't know if that's accessible ... it may just be an initial region for the first testing
[13:03] Simon Linden: ... but that bug passed testing already, so it looks good
[13:03] Draconis Neurocam: You still have to log in to see BUG issues on the JIRA right? Would be nice if I could update my Jira number to url script.
[13:03] Simon Linden: please speak up if any of you test it and find problems
[13:04] Lucia Nightfire: will do
[13:04] Lucia Nightfire: if I have access, heh
[13:04] Simon Linden: I dont' think I've tried jira without logging in, but yeah, it probably makes you do that
[13:04] Jenna Felton: no way to comment BUG-5533
[13:05] Jenna Felton: its closed, so than it needs another issue open, in the case
[13:06] Lucia Nightfire: I'm in annelie now, and scritps are active
[13:06] Lucia Nightfire: still get taht explicit perms request from something I own, heh
[13:06] Simon Linden: I need to get going ... thanks everyone for coming today and the good talk
[13:07] Clockwork Puppet (fenix.eldritch): Thanks, Lindens!
[13:07] Yuzuru Jewell: Thank you, Simon.
[13:07] Mona Eberhardt: Thanks Simon.
[13:07] Baker Linden: Thanks everyone!
[13:07] Draconis Neurocam: Thank you too Simon, and Baker.
[13:07] Whirly Fizzle: Thanks Lindens
[13:07] Tankmaster Finesmith: have a good week, simon!
[13:07] Qie Niangao: Thanks Simon, all. Have fun!
[13:07] Mona Eberhardt: Thanks Baker.
[13:07] Jenna Felton: thank you Lindens, and have a great week, Lindens and All :)
[13:07] Baker Linden: have a fantastic week everyone!
[13:07] Tankmaster Finesmith: tc baker!
[13:07] Yuzuru Jewell: Thank you, Baker.
Simulator_User_Group
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