WindLight/Office Hours/2007-11-27

Pastrami Linden: or is it semi-weekly?
Pastrami Linden: I can never get those two straight
Torley Linden: Hiya everyone!
Torley Linden: Biweekly, bimonthly, etc. can mean either. How confusing eh?
Claudius Fouroux: hello there
Pastrami Linden: WindLight's skies are both flammable.... and inflammable
Torley Linden: Irregardless.
Torley Linden: ;)
Pastrami Linden: lol irregardless
Torley Linden: There was a great cracked.com article recently on 9 words that don't mean what ya think they do.
Pastrami Linden: alright everyone, hit us with questions!
Pastrami Linden: preferably WindLight related
Pastrami Linden: :)
Torley Linden: Yes. Anything and everything WindLight, it is GOOD.
Damian Delacroix raises a paw....
Meni Kaiousei: Any updates on the leopard Mac issues? (low fps, wrong terain texture, memory slider)?
Torley Linden IMs the Aware of the Issue Tracker group to get their attention too.
Claudius Fouroux: can anyone see me? 'cause i cant see myself
Torley Linden: Claudius, I can see you... sitting...
Nock Forager: I can see you.
Torley Linden: with your back away from me...
Claudius Fouroux: ok cool
Patchouli Woollahra: hey folks.
Torley Linden: Heya Patch.
Zen Linden: heya
Nock Forager: Hi Path
Torley Linden: Welcome welcome everyone!
Damian Delacroix: With the new update -Second Life 1.18.5 (74061) Nov 19 2007 10:10:17 (Second Life WindLight)
Ericc Carter: hi yall
Wef Bade: ohh BigPapi is soo tiny.
Petronilla Paperdoll: hello everybody :-)
BigPapi Linden: Meni: Leopard is being really tricky. The GL drivers seem worse on it somehow. We're still investigating the issue and communicating with apple to find out either when a fix is coming or what workarounds we can use.
Damian Delacroix: I'm still getting sections of builds disappearing...
Pastrami Linden: Damina
Meni Kaiousei: ok
Damian Delacroix: ..randomly it seems. Is this something you are still working on?
Patchouli Woollahra found a odd issue with Windlight while doing the final touches on this avatar
Pastrami Linden: ^Damian,
Pastrami Linden: that's probably due to known occlusion bugs
Patchouli Woollahra: some listens are getting ignored.
Pastrami Linden: which should be fixed in the next release or two
Torley Linden: The good news is some of your issues may already be recorded and worked on/fixed... occlusion bug is the hottest on http://jira.secondlife.com/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa?mode=hide&requestId=10970
Pastrami Linden: yeah
Torley Linden: WindLight: Objects, avatars, and water sometimes disappear after zooming camera - http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-3162
Torley Linden: That one's bugged the heck out of me since before WindLight went public again.
Damian Delacroix: Note: Seems to happen more frequently when I run two instances.
Damian Delacroix: I've been running windlight.. and then a normal instance to compare... side/side
Patchouli Woollahra: O_o zomg, Phli's turned into a render for a SNES game!
Torley Linden: Good to know, Damian. I do that sometimes.
Pastrami Linden: anyone else, any qeustions?
Torley Linden: Any really hot and burning questions should get added to our FAQ on the public wiki...
Torley Linden: Feel free to indulge your WindLight curiosities with us!
Damian Delacroix: Patch.. if you mean he's pixelated.. probably seeing the new Avatar Imposters going to work.
Pastrami Linden: yes
Patchouli Woollahra: I suppose so...
Patchouli Woollahra: but that effect is really something with the right avatar at the right distance.
Torley Linden: Haha, yeah, it works great with Final Fantasy avatars for obvious reasons.
Laryel Zenovka laughs
Zen Linden: mmm. 2d sephiroth
Torley Linden: Yup, and for anyone who doesn't already know and doesn't like the Impostors effect, you can turn it OFF in Preferences > Graphics tab, or simply raise Avatars Mesh Detail to make Impostors happen at further distances.
Torley Linden: Sephiroth is a badass but he wasn't as cruel as Kefka!
Torley Linden: Dude poisoned a whole town's drinking water supply, geez.
Zen Linden: damn clown
Laryel Zenovka: I think Sephiroth is largely overused
Torley Linden: Hahaha.
Pastrami Linden: You know what I always wanted to see in those games?
Patchouli Woollahra wants a mode that forces everyone's avatars to Avatar Imposters irregardless of distance.
Torley Linden: What's that Pastrami?
Patchouli Woollahra: okay, no gunplay h...
Pastrami Linden: everyone would have two forms (enemies) - the cutesy icon ones and the bad&^% combat forms
Torley Linden: Patchouli: Hm I wonder if there's a Debug Setting for that... *curious* I'll take note of your suggestion tho.
Meni Kaiousei: Are you already working at the windlight setting as an inventory asset? or better... estate controls? or will that work start after public release?
Torley Linden: Pastrami: Hahaha.
Torley Linden: Ahhh good question Meni. =)
Pastrami Linden: I always wnated to see *your* guys as the bad&^% combat forms
Patchouli Woollahra: lemme look up a couple of things.
Pastrami Linden: Kefka got one
Pastrami Linden: why couldn't we?
BigPapi Linden: Cause you weren't badass enough... :)
Pastrami Linden: my characters were tough
Torley Linden: I always liked how Dracula in Castlevania went from this dude on a chair who throws a glass at you, then transforms into a demon when you whup his first form.
Pastrami Linden: hey so to address the estate question
Pastrami Linden: we'll start serious work on it once the client side is stable
Laryel Zenovka: hahaah 'what is a man...' *tink* such a manly goblet...cant even shatter right
Rikk Lovell: Guys, in custom settings, is there a way to allow us to set graphics card memory again?
Pastrami Linden: we have limited resources at the moment
Pastrami Linden: Rikk
Pastrami Linden: yes
Pastrami Linden: go to Hardware Settings
Rikk Lovell: There's a setting for rendering, but not for total memory anymore.
Damian Delacroix: Another thing I occassionaly have happen.. and it might be related to the occlusion bug thing: Water becoming completely solid one color?
Pastrami Linden: rather, Hardware Options
Pastrami Linden: Rikk, that do it?
Torley Linden: Damian: How does that happen to you? Can you please detail it further?
Patchouli Woollahra: okay/ who's fing those rounds?
Zen Linden: one color? Not even a texture applied?
Rikk Lovell: Yes, Pastrami, I found that... but my gfx card crashed anyway, as it does when I use the upper 128 MB in the regular viewer.
Pastrami Linden: got it
Meni Kaiousei: ah.. the "graphics card memory" not able to change (negative values) can we see a fix for that soon?
01 Hifeng: yeah, i have problem with water too
Laryel Zenovka: Daemon: What kind of graphics card does your platform have?
Torley Linden: Meni, oh yeah, that's definitely a known issue.
01 Hifeng: part of water is solid, without a texture
01 Hifeng: just a color
Damian Delacroix: Torley, again, almost seems random.. I do a lot of standing and zooming about.. and sometimes the water, especially if there is a lot of it (Standalone island) will become solid light blue..
Torley Linden: Thanks a lot for reporting that Meni.
Damian Delacroix: ..there will be no ripples.. no reflections.. no movement..
Rikk Lovell: That's *texture* memory... so I think with 128 for textures, SL still goes and uses the upper 128.
Damian Delacroix: ..I can fix that one though, by simply reverting to region default..
Torley Linden: Damian: First time I've heard of that I think... so the water is solid blue, not missing?
Damian Delacroix: ..and then back to whatever choice I had.
Rikk Lovell: Unfortunately there's a defective block in there, I'm pretty sure. When I run the standard viewer claiming my card has 128, it runs fine.
Damian Delacroix: Correct.
Torley Linden: There's a known bug where water height of above 20 m in a region may cause it to go missing.
Damian Delacroix: I'll have to snapshot the next time it happens.
Torley Linden: Damian: What graphics card are you on? Please do take a snapshot!
Patchouli Woollahra gave you Snapshot : Brampton Linden Stage, Brampton (105, 165, 24).
Damian Delacroix: CPU: Intel Pentium 4 (Unknown model) (2992 MHz)
Zen Linden: Damian: I haven't heard of this one. A snapshot would indeed rock
Damian Delacroix: Memory: 3071 MB
Damian Delacroix: OS Version: Microsoft Windows XP Service Pack 2 (Build 2600)
Gramma Fiddlesticks: well then that splains what Gramma sees happening to the water around her home. It just sometimes goes POOF!
Damian Delacroix: Graphics Card Vendor: NVIDIA Corporation
Damian Delacroix: Graphics Card: GeForce 8500 GT/PCI/SSE2
Damian Delacroix: OpenGL Version: 2.1.1
Laryel Zenovka: rock on, an XP user who hasnt converted yet
Torley Linden: And re: texture memory slider broken, we hope to fix that soon, yes...
Torley Linden: Damian, you're also on newest stable NVIDIA drivers?
Claudius Fouroux: oh btw, how come you guys did not check compatibility with nvidia 8600 ... i checked the list of cards and that seemed to be missing from the list, any particular reason?
Torley Linden: We plan to have a pretty quick WindLight update schedule, with more bugs fixed in each one.
Torley Linden: Claudius: Which list of cards?
Damian Delacroix: I'll have to double check.. but that is an idea to research, thanks for reminding me.
Zen Linden: Claudius: what list are you referring to?
Patchouli Woollahra: well, the 8600 is the 8800 with a few shader units fused off.
Claudius Fouroux: someone had put up a FPS list
Torley Linden: Oh, that one on the blog?
Claudius Fouroux: yup
Patchouli Woollahra: also: less ram, but with added hardware video playback.
Claudius Fouroux: i was wondering if it was omitted for any particular reason
Torley Linden: http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/11/15/typical-frame-rate-performance-by-graphics-cardgpu/
Phli Foxchase: Does the windlight team take a look at VWR-3184 ?
Torley Linden: Hmmm it wasn't omitted for any particular reason, some other variants also aren't on there.
Torley Linden: Phli, let's have a look now...
Claudius Fouroux: ok
Pastrami Linden: ditto Phli
Torley Linden: Graphics gurus, any ideas on that one? I can import it internally so we can take a closer look.
Phli Foxchase: no refection with some ATI driver
Damian Delacroix: Question on Avatar Imposters: Does it intentionally affect trees at a distance also?
Pastrami Linden: Damian, doesn't touch trees
Second Life: Your object 'Linden Village Rug Design' has been returned to your inventory lost and found folder by Alexa Linden from parcel at Linden Lab HQ 1 199.425, 138.899 due to parcel owner return.
Milton Wisent: ah...ati drivers
Milton Wisent: I have an x1950
Damian Delacroix: What causes the same effect then?
Milton Wisent: and if I go to any of the high settings I lose all contrast
Torley Linden: Damian: Tree Mesh Detail, sounds like.
Vam Junot: so um.. anyone have the avatars turn blue with the new windlight on a Mac? or was that just a random
Damian Delacroix: One tree looks clear.. the next.. distorted and generic?
Torley Linden: I do know I've heard complaints that tree LOD transitions aren't as granular as the main viewer... I haven't checked that out closely but I'll have a look.
Gramma Fiddlesticks: Torley, no matter where I set tree mesh detail, the Linden trees are misbeghiving badly with windlight.
Pastrami Linden: Vam, was that with very Shiny avatars?
Torley Linden: May be this bug: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-3109
Torley Linden: How are they misbehaving, Gramma?
Claudius Fouroux: oops
Claudius Fouroux: i typed that ages back
Vam Junot: it was a oncer though
Damian Delacroix: Exactly, Gramma.. perhaps the same issue I'm having?
Gramma Fiddlesticks: they pop in an out of detail every few seconds for me. I don't have the greatest graphics card, but it sure does better on the regular viewer.
Pastrami Linden: Gramma, is it related to distance?
Gramma Fiddlesticks: and the 'trunks " of the trees become nothing but thin lines.
Gramma Fiddlesticks: =((
Damian Delacroix: That's what I am referring to... I'll have an example above my head in a moment...
Torley Linden: Gramma, does VWR-3109 sound like what you're having? Do you have a picture or a video even? Like, if you stay still, does the tree detail change?
Gramma Fiddlesticks: No Pastrami. It happens when I am standing close to a tree as much as when I am far away.
Pastrami Linden: then Gramma, it might be occlusion related
WarKirby Magojiro: You lindens look uncomfortable. Shall I rez some seating?
BigPapi Linden: But does it change with camera position, or does it change randomly without your moving?
Pastrami Linden: WarKirby- my arch nemesis?
Pastrami Linden: :)
WarKirby Magojiro: am I :O
Damian Delacroix: If you would please look at the example above my head.. I just took this.
Pastrami Linden: seating would be lovely
WarKirby Magojiro: or seating?
Torley Linden: *looks*
Damian Delacroix: One tree is clear, the ones behind it..
Damian Delacroix: ..generic.
Gramma Fiddlesticks: the tree detail seems to jhave no pattern to what it is doing. It can happen close up, far away, and no pattern to how often,. Sometimes very few seconds and sometimes it will be a minute or two between times.
WarKirby Magojiro: expandable table
Gramma Fiddlesticks: I can take some snaphosts.
WarKirby Magojiro: grab a seat, everyone
Gramma Fiddlesticks: it is really odd looking when it happens.
Laryel Zenovka: oO hahaha
Torley Linden: Damian, that does look like VWR-3109.
Torley Linden: That picture does look related to distance.
Laryel Zenovka: lol poor Pastrami
Torley Linden: Since the trees in the background are cardboard-cutout flat style. :|
Damian Delacroix: Exactly..
Damian Delacroix: ..that's why I thought it might have been avatar imposters somehow affecting them.. same way it affects the avatars...
WarKirby Magojiro: what issue are we currently on?
Torley Linden: Please vote for VWR-3109 and you can add your comment and pictures there if you'd like!
Torley Linden: WarKirby: Going through whateva comes up!
Torley Linden: Oh sweet, we got seating.
Torley Linden: Thanks. =D
WarKirby Magojiro: oki. Everyone can get to the issue in question by clicking this big spinny coin
Milton Wisent: What is vwr-3109?
Torley Linden: Haha, that's the funniest I've ever heard the URL-er referred to.
WarKirby Magojiro: vwr 3109 is asking for tree detail to gradually gradient
WarKirby Magojiro: rather than snapping detail levels
Torley Linden: What really helps is, if you find an issue that affects you on the Issue Tracker, vote and/or comment on it, to raise its visibility and let us know you're having that problem too.
Sierra Larsen: ok is anyone goign to talk on voice here?
Torley Linden: Pardon Sierra, it's text chat.
Torley Linden: We really appreciate you bringing up any WindLight issues you have here with us. :)
Gramma Fiddlesticks: that's exactly what it is doing! LOL I must go and vote for that one. Tree detail snapping!! perfect desciption. =))
Sierra Larsen: ok well i will turn gramma off then hearing the breathing is annoying :) thanx
WarKirby Magojiro: I'm sure you're free to, but there's a general policy of using text at meetings so as not to exclude anyone.
Meni Kaiousei: I recognise vwr 3109 too, one vote from me :)
Torley Linden: Kewl.
Milton Wisent: Is that dependent on distance?
Gramma Fiddlesticks: sorry Sierra.
Gramma Fiddlesticks: =(
Milton Wisent: what distance does 3109 occur at?
Gramma Fiddlesticks: I use voice a lot and forgot to mute the mic.
Milton Wisent: is it configurable?
Sierra Larsen: :)
Gramma Fiddlesticks: it's muted now.
Patchouli Woollahra: sorry, I think I'm getting some memory leaks with Windlight and this ATi I'm using.
WarKirby Magojiro: I think the distance varies dependant on your settings
Torley Linden: Milton: Depends on Trees Mesh Detail in Preference.
Torley Linden: There IS a debug setting you can use (experimentally) to override it.
WarKirby Magojiro: what's the name of that ?
Torley Linden: Client menu > Debug Settings and set "RenderTreeLODFactor" to, say....10. Only do it if you know what you're doing, tho. =)
Sierra Larsen: i havent downloaded windlight but a few ppl i have spoken to are having conflicts with voice working properly while in windlight is this normal or just memory issues anyway to reduce the conflict ?
Torley Linden: It may make things excruciatingly slow in Linden tree-rich areas.
Pastrami Linden: Sierra, I haven't heard much about it
Pastrami Linden: Torley?
Torley Linden: Debug Settings aren't formally supported so you tweak them at your own risk.
Torley Linden: Sierra, I haven't heard this either.
Torley Linden: Sierra, can you confirm from them if they're having conflicts in 1.18.5 RC (non-WindLight) too?
Sierra Larsen: hmm ok so maybe i should get the people who are having issues to report them ?
WarKirby Magojiro: this makes the trees much nicer.
Gramma Fiddlesticks: Sierra, I am using voice and windlight together and have had no major problems with the two. If that helps you any.
Sierra Larsen: ok i will ask
Torley Linden: Sierra, definitely, if one could start an issue @ http://jira.secondlife.com and others chime in with extra info, that would help put pieces of the puzzle together.
Torley Linden: I haven't had voice problems on WindLight myself.
WarKirby Magojiro: I believe there's one already
Sierra Larsen: koolios
Torley Linden: I do have a strange experience where the WindLight viewer freezes when I try to teleport, tho — has that happened to anyone else here?
WarKirby Magojiro: not happened to me.
Torley Linden: WarKirby: Ooh, do you know where it is?
Wef Bade: yes i had it once
Sierra Larsen: well i crash in the normal viewer 90% of the time on TP :)
Laryel Zenovka: i get stuck in double teleports alot heh
Patchouli Woollahra: Torley: happens to me a lot when I go to Ahern.
Torley Linden: Wef, the freeze upon teleport, in WindLight? And to be clear, it doesn't happen in the main viewer?
Torley Linden: Ouch Sierra!
WarKirby Magojiro sets the urler to the voice issue
Torley Linden: Patchouli: Hmmm really. How long does it freeze?
Wef Bade: the display gone grey like a black and white TV when I teleported.
Patchouli Woollahra: then again, it could also be the giant manhoods that are romping all over the area these days.
Sierra Larsen: oh yeh and double tps and the otehr one is if i get two tps i click the first and go to the secondlocation
Wef Bade: could be a simulater prob.
Eleanora Newell: /have you had any issues with MacProBooks, graphics card ATY,RadeonX1600, running Tiger 10.411? i can barely run windlight
Patchouli Woollahra: apparently it's the MMM.
WarKirby Magojiro: Sierra. Click the coin above, and see if that sounds like the issue you're hearing about
Torley Linden: Sierra: Hmmm some of that sounds like known issues.
Claudius Fouroux: might be just me or my connection, but since ive started using windlight... it LOCKS me up ie, my av cannot move... i can see IMs etc and can respond i think... but invariably makes me relogin... is that a reported problem?
BigPapi Linden: Eleanora: can you be more specific?
Torley Linden: Not WindLight-specific but I've known about that "double TP screen" for a long time.
Sierra Larsen: kk
Torley Linden: Claudius, does that happen in every location you try to login to? Did you try logging into empty regions?
Sierra Larsen: i seem to get every buggy issue....... like cleaning trash = crash
Claudius Fouroux: not when i login actually... it happens in the middle of something and ONLY when i am standing
Zen Linden: Elanora: odd... I have a MBP, x1600 with tiger that ran wl fine before I upgraded to leopard. Hmmm
Torley Linden: Sierra: You mean, crashing when you try to empty Trash?
Zen Linden: I'll have to try it out
blogHUD Messenger: Your image post has arrived at blogHUD.com []: see http://bloghud.com/id/15614 
Torley Linden: I have a MBP, x1600 with Tiger, haven't used it much with WindLight yet tho.
Sierra Larsen: what i find hilarious is i fall asleep in RL and come back like 6 hours later and i amstill in world then i try to move and i crash LOL
Claudius Fouroux: yes it has happened in different regions
WarKirby Magojiro: A lot of people have reported problems here and there with leopard. And vista
WarKirby Magojiro: natural growing pains of a new OS, I suspect.
Torley Linden: Yeah, I should put the Leopard mentions in our FAQ... that's pretty hot.
Patchouli Woollahra: SL's kinda like that. you know you've been forced offline only when you try to change the world.
Torley Linden: I haven't looked at so many of the Vista ones yet but they often sound like driver issues (?).
Sierra Larsen: well vista sucks a juicy one
SLurlchatter v0.12: Touch me for a SLurl to the current location, or say '/121 <sim name>,<x>,<y>,<z>' to get a SLurl to a given point. '/121 show' or '/121 hide' will show or hide the HUD.
Connecting to in-world Voice Chat...
Connected
Laryel Zenovka: wb T.
BigPapi Linden: Eleanora: Not quite. Leopard GL drivers are currently worse than Tiger drivers.
Torley Linden: Oh for crying out loud... thanks Laryel.
WarKirby Magojiro: Did you crash, Torley?
Patchouli Woollahra: We're talking to a compagnathus, a pink marshmallow chef...
Torley Linden: Yes, WindLight just crashed on me.
Laryel Zenovka: lol! yw
Torley Linden: I don't know what I did to trigger it. @_@
Torley Linden: Ah wells, I'm back.
Eleanora Newell: /thank you, bigpapi
BigPapi Linden: You never told us what the actual problem you were having on tiger was
Torley Linden: Isn't that so fantastic, Patch?
Torley Linden: What'd I miss?
Patchouli Woollahra: a winged watermelon collie, and two guys in great suits.
Milton Wisent: I have two concerns that may have already been reported
Torley Linden: I'm going to import some of these new hot issues I've been hearing about... so we can look at them closer.
Torley Linden: Milton, please bring 'em up!
Torley Linden: =)
KingHenrik Lundquist: What exactly is WindLight supposed to do? All I see are pictures all over the place, but I suspect it does more than atmospheric effects.
Pastrami Linden: KingHenrik
Torley Linden: It's always appreciated when you talk about a known issue, since we can add your voice to the weight of other Residents affected.
Pastrami Linden: new water
Patchouli Woollahra: it makes great orange juice.
Torley Linden: KingHenrik: Did ya see Pastrami's blog post?
Pastrami Linden: better gfx performance
Milton Wisent: the first...I have a house with a white marble floor, it looks correct at mid detail, and bleached white at high and ultra
KingHenrik Lundquist: Nope.
Patchouli Woollahra: now you can swim in orange juice all over Second Life.
WarKirby Magojiro: Windlight is a complete overhaul of sea, sky, lighting, atmospheric effects, and the general rendering engine
Patchouli Woollahra: or blood.
Pastrami Linden: oh yeah, I should point him there
Torley Linden: If you're not yet familiar with WindLight, be sure to see: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Windlight
Patchouli Woollahra: or chocolate.
Torley Linden: Lots of info there, including links to all our previous info!
Milton Wisent: asphalt and other things also seem to become a grey shade
KingHenrik Lundquist: Thanks.
Wef Bade: err..
Pastrami Linden: KingHenrik-
Pastrami Linden: http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/11/14/windlight-first-look-is-back/
Torley Linden: Milton: Hmmm if you have pictures this would be really handy.
Pastrami Linden: all the info on the new WL viewer
Wef Bade: is there any ways to open URL by tab browser, not by IE?
Milton Wisent: I can send you some
Wef Bade: i always wonder.
polysilox Apogee: ..uhh...it seems to over rule local lighting
WarKirby Magojiro: Can one of you nice lindens extend the autoreturn time here for now?
Torley Linden: Milton: It sounds to me like with Atmospheric Shaders on, things appear too bright to you?
Entering god mode, level 200
WarKirby Magojiro: my table just got returned, and with it, the abiulkity to expand seating
Torley Linden: Ah yeah WarKirby I'll push it up to 60 m.
Milton Wisent: I can show you the house now...but the bleached floor I still need to shoot
Claudius Fouroux: ok any progress on improving how av faces look in windlight? its nightmare to take closeups with ackward shades etc on your face (not necessarily a bug, but concerns me a lot since im into taking pics thingie)
Milton Wisent: maybe
Torley Linden: OK Milton, go for it! Put it up on a prim or send me a photo.
Wef Bade: i never use IE..
Milton Wisent: but only in high and ultra
Torley Linden: Claudius: You'll want to see: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Windlight#What_are_you_doing_about_WindLight_looking_.22wrong.22.3F
Torley Linden: That covers a lot of the common scenarios, and we're going to add more.
Claudius Fouroux: okay
Claudius Fouroux: thank you:)
Torley Linden: You're welcome. =D
Laryel Zenovka: Claudius: Thats a great concern, Im an SL photographer and akward lighting kills me!
Milton Wisent: While I have the floor, the second is server performance...or I think it is server performance
WarKirby Magojiro: The lighting in windlight is actually very adjusteable
Torley Linden: Long story short is that we want to give *you* more control of how you see yourself and the world around you with WindLight, letting it be a lot more preferential and user-configurable. THE POWER IS YOURS.
Claudius Fouroux: yes Laryel, tell me about it.. i have to switch to a normal viewer to take pics :\
Milton Wisent: I do an auto racing sim on motorsports island...SLSCAR
Torley Linden: Some of the "OMG WHAT HAPPENED" is due to just not learning how to use the new controls yet, so we encourage better education this way. :o)
Milton Wisent: the car is 1 second a lap slower in windlight
Milton Wisent: I thought all the physics is on the server
WarKirby Magojiro: it is
Milton Wisent: track detail is higher
Patchouli Woollahra: Milton: that seems to be a client-side rendering issue.
WarKirby Magojiro: that can't be caused by windlight
WarKirby Magojiro: unless it's the interface
Torley Linden: Milton: How exactly are you measuring this? It seems like it'd be pretty tricky to average those sorts of statistics? If viewer performance is lower, though, the driver may have a harder time steering.
Sierra Larsen: so best make up a notecard with all the links in it hand it out to ppl with windlight issues ?
Milton Wisent: but why would that affect the lap time?
Patchouli Woollahra: word of advice: ram all your detail shaders to the left and kill the eyecandy while you're racing for real.
Milton Wisent: if the client hangs the server keeps moving the car
Torley Linden: Sierra: I was thinking about that earlier but I pretty much link to http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Windlight now for simplicity.
WarKirby Magojiro: We have to switch to the new chairs now...
Patchouli Woollahra: any racer should tell you that.
Milton Wisent: I ran it in low and it had the same probem
Patchouli Woollahra: hrm.
Patchouli Woollahra: well, it IS kinda unstable atm.
Milton Wisent: and that is versus my normal settings in 1.18.5.2
Sierra Larsen: and the report windlight issues page would be another one to hand out then too ?
Torley Linden: Milton, it isn't clear to me how lap time is being measured? Is this a human racer or some sort of automated drone that travels around the circuit?
Torley Linden: Sierra: Yes, that's linked to on the page.
WarKirby Magojiro was going to ask that, torley :)
Sierra Larsen: kks
Torley Linden: Anything and everything that's important to know about WindLight should be on that page. =)
Torley Linden: Hehe WarKirby.
Milton Wisent: I drive it...cursor keys for forward/back left/right
Torley Linden: Glad that you asked, Sierra! :)
Sierra Larsen: lolz
Patchouli Woollahra: Have you checked your Lag Meter?
Milton Wisent: lap times are VERY sensitive to the line around the track
Patchouli Woollahra: it may be a client-side issue most likely.
WarKirby Magojiro: then possibly, windlight affects your framerate reducing your effectiveness as a driver
BigPapi Linden: Milton: how are you measuring that? I don't see how there should be a connection between lap times and WL, unless your hw makes it such that WL runs too slow to accurately steer.
Torley Linden: Milton: Even with you driving though, I'd expect some variation with each lap time.
KingHenrik Lundquist: To any Lindens concerning Vista: I use Vista and only crash maybe once or twice a week.
Torley Linden: Thanks KingHenrik.
Milton Wisent: The track records and displays lap times in the chat window
WarKirby Magojiro: good to hear
Milton Wisent: I ahve been doing it about a week (I race in rl) and my times are pretty consistent
Sierra Larsen: i dont use vista and i crashed today 3 times :)
Patchouli Woollahra: having a second's difference between times seem to me to be a bit of a "within error" difference.
Milton Wisent: have been practivvcing a lot
KingHenrik Lundquist: Hehe.
Laryel Zenovka: i dont use vista and have yet to crash, go XP!
Milton Wisent: the one second was very obvious
WarKirby Magojiro agrees with patch
KingHenrik Lundquist: lol!
Sierra Larsen: |o/
KingHenrik Lundquist: Yayyyyyyy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Milton Wisent: well...an hour or two at least in 10=15 minute intervals
WarKirby Magojiro: Windlight doesn't directly affect anything that could affect your lap times, except your perception as a driver
Patchouli Woollahra: I suggest you race with Lag Meter enabled and see if it goes red client-side.
WarKirby Magojiro: perhaps the sun is blinding you ?
Milton Wisent: the times are consistent no matter who else is on the track
Milton Wisent: but not in windlight
Milton Wisent: I was rather surprised at that
Patchouli Woollahra: Warkirby: Windlight doesn't implement solar flaring... yet.
Sierra Larsen: lol @warkirby i was t hinkign that
Patchouli Woollahra: but yeah, that would be cool.
Milton Wisent: is there a server protocol difference?
BigPapi Linden: Moving on. Any other WindLight questions?
Sierra Larsen: drivei n teh dark
Patchouli Woollahra: the server serves the same view of the world to everyone irregardless of what client they use, Milton.
WarKirby Magojiro: Patch. Try the sailors delight preset. That can be quite blinding
Torley Linden: Milton, not one that I know of that should affect any lap times. If you're really concerned about it though, you'd have to do a more scientfic study, with perhaps a table of readings, a large number of samples to draw from, etc.
WarKirby Magojiro: I'm worried about the reduced effect of local lighting, though
Patchouli Woollahra: There's a 300 joke in that one, WarKirby.
Torley Linden: WarKirby: I'm going to take a closer look at that issue too.
Sierra Larsen: well for me no more issues that have been brought to my attention cept the voice and windlight not working to owell for a few ppl so i am good :)
WarKirby Magojiro: One moment while I get the issue id
Patchouli Woollahra: Our Windlight Preset will White Out The Sun!
Torley Linden: Local Lighting Exposure in Windlight seems to be greatly lessened. - http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-3171
polysilox Apogee: does windlight use up how many of the 8 available open gl sources and will we everget more than the 8 available?
Patchouli Woollahra: Then We Shall Drive In The Shade.
WarKirby Magojiro: yes, that
Torley Linden: I'll take that one in to ask our graphics gurus here...
Milton Wisent: yes! it is the atmosphere shaders that bleach everything out!!!
Milton Wisent: why is that?
Pastrami Linden: Milton, see this:
Torley Linden: Milton, please see http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Windlight#What_are_you_doing_about_WindLight_looking_.22wrong.22.3F
WarKirby Magojiro: I've used the legacy effect to cast a dynamic highlight onto an object of a different color
WarKirby Magojiro: that's now impossible
Laryel Zenovka: /Patch/ lol at refference
KingHenrik Lundquist: Wow....this does look much better, and realistic.
Patchouli Woollahra: well, from my years with Vue D'Esprit... Atmospheric Attenuation is a bastard.
BigPapi Linden: polysilox: We use up to 8 lights if your hardware can support it. More than 8 lights isn't planned at the moment.
WarKirby Magojiro: The images in that issue demonstrate it.
Torley Linden remembers when local lighting wasn't done on the GPU and it was slowwwww.
Patchouli Woollahra: you're noticing it now because previously, SL's renderer failed to model the way the atmosphere fubars the distant view.
WarKirby Magojiro: it worked perfectly before, but now the lighting seems to have little effect
Patchouli Woollahra: Mooo.
Milton Wisent: but that says that you NEED atmospheric shaders to get the benefits of Windlight
Milton Wisent: and that I need to turn them off for it to work
Torley Linden: Interestingly during the first WindLight: First Look, we had a problem where local lighting was *too bright*. I think BigPapi fixed that...
Milton Wisent: isn't that a contridiction?
WarKirby Magojiro: With one case, I can fix it with glow no problem, but where the clight and the object are a different color, that';s not possible
Patchouli Woollahra: a bit too much, apparently.
Patchouli Woollahra: can we take both solutions and average it out? ^^;
Torley Linden: Milton: I don't understand? You can set the preference however you want.
KingHenrik Lundquist: May I ask why the Draw Distance being any customizable number in the regular client is disabled in the WL client?
BigPapi Linden: Local lights have less of an effet now during the day than before.
Torley Linden: KingHenrik, click "Custom" checkbox. :)
polysilox Apogee: yah but windlight bleaches everything out so local lighting is menaingless...and it it um....overpowers across the whole spectrum now...the light power band....makes the polygons stand out ...not smooth like the first one could with some difficulty
KingHenrik Lundquist: No, Torley, I mean ti's either 64 or 92, or whatever, no where in between
Torley Linden: You may want to read some of our fine WindLight documentation too, KingHenrik, it explains how to use these features in greater detail. And then you'll be a lot more comfortable.
BigPapi Linden: Because they were overexposing most objects due
WarKirby Magojiro: It's possible to set draw distance to almost any numbe you please through the debug options
Torley Linden: KingHenrik: Oh, you can still set it with finer numbers via Client menu, but most people don't care about that.
Damian Delacroix: Might have already been mentioned: Preferences, Graphics, Hardware Options...
BigPapi Linden: to their being created for the classic viewer that had no actual contribution from sunlight.
Torley Linden: Most people can't tell the difference between 128 and 129 m draw distance. ;)
KingHenrik Lundquist: Aha! Okay, thanks Torley.
Damian Delacroix: Texture Memory slider goes negative?
BigPapi Linden: We'll be tweaking that further.
Torley Linden: Damian: Yup, known bug, hope to fix that soon.
Torley Linden: Thanks BigPapi for the details!
Zen Linden: KingHenrik: I chose sliders for the vast majority of graphics preference settings, would you like a little more detail there?
Damian Delacroix: Thanks!
BigPapi Linden: But keep in mind that OMG it's washed out, and OMG not enough local lights often times contradict.
KingHenrik Lundquist: That I would...you se, I'm in a hockey league, and I usually play iwth about 80-90 m setting because of the rink's location.
Patchouli Woollahra: a good photographer plays tricks with the camera.
Zen Linden: ahhh
Laryel Zenovka: *nods* heh
Zen Linden: cool. I'll add a little more resolution to that
Torley Linden: If you want to set Draw Distance finer, Client menu > Debug Settings and enter "RenderFarClip" then type in your desired choice. It's still possible, KingHenrik.
Patchouli Woollahra: you have significantly more control over the lighting conditions in SL than you would in RL.
Zen Linden: (that ones easy)
KingHenrik Lundquist: Thanks a lot!
Torley Linden: Kewl Zen.
WarKirby Magojiro: It would be good to have a prim settable property
polysilox Apogee: sure local lighting fights ...but thats pretty obvious ....the stuttering .......you can make adjusts since its "local"
WarKirby Magojiro: to adjust the object's sensitivity to lighting
Claudius Fouroux: unlike in the normal viewer, when the draw distance is set to less... why doesnt the stuff in the background dissappear instead of showing gaping holes in hills etc.. or has it always been that way?
Milton Wisent: Torley Linden: Milton: I don't understand? You can set the preference however you want. >>If the atomspheric shaders are off, doesn't that mean you don't get the atomspheric effects:?
WarKirby Magojiro: essentially like full bright, but more control than a checkbox
Drew Dzieciol: In the WL VIewer you can't right click on someone's name to see their profile or drag inventory to their floating nametag, you have to click/drag directly to the AV. Was that intentional?
Patchouli Woollahra: we just had the Glow option added, WarKirby.
Milton Wisent: My sky is blue...
Torley Linden: Claudius: There's more than a single issue here. Part of it is occlusion culling which is supposed to be better. (I have noticed unsightly holes in terrain tho.) Part of it is that fog is done differently, too.
Torley Linden: Drew: Known issue!
WarKirby Magojiro: I know, patch. That's different, and can;t be used for my purpose.
Claudius Fouroux: ok
Torley Linden: This list is updated live... you can always check it whenever you want, WINDLIGHT OPEN BUGS - http://jira.secondlife.com/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa?mode=hide&requestId=10970
Patchouli Woollahra shrugs.
polysilox Apogee loves known issues...its the other ones i worry about....
Torley Linden: Name tags not being clickable is a pretty hot one.
Drew Dzieciol: ty
Patchouli Woollahra: we work with the world we have, not the world we want, in the short term.
Torley Linden: polysilox, yup, that's why I encourage more people to report their issues so they become known too.
WarKirby Magojiro: what about shiny :)
Torley Linden: I report stuff I find myself, and like to circulate that info so other peeps are like, "AHHH! I'm glad I'm not the only one! That bug pissed me off so bad!"
Patchouli Woollahra: ah yes... TOO SHINY!
Pastrami Linden: WarKirby, very well known issue
Torley Linden: Shiny is, appropriately enough, also in our FAQ. =)
Pastrami Linden: SHINY IS GETTING FIXED :)
BigPapi Linden: Shiny is being worked on *right now*
WarKirby Magojiro: I think the current shiny effects are very nice, BUT they're different
Torley Linden: WOOHOO! THE WORD IS GOOD!
Patchouli Woollahra: And when you throw RenderDynamicReflections into the mix, in the noon WL sun...
Pastrami Linden: I mean, like, right now- we're out there with our buffing cloth
WarKirby Magojiro: different means breaking content
Patchouli Woollahra: And that's necessarily bad because?
WarKirby Magojiro: I think a good solution, would be to enable more than the default shiny options
Patchouli Woollahra: we just broke the original particle system this year.
WarKirby Magojiro: extend it to 6, 3 legacy, and 3 new
polysilox Apogee: well i like the over all....umm...qualitys of windlight ont the landscape ....just big issues about how it views avatars .....unuable right now from my point of view.....it renders avs as sharp and ugly ....first one with some tweaking ...well you could get it to work so far with this one ....no.....
Milton Wisent: Did I get lost in there?
Damian Delacroix: poly.. sounds like you should read up on Avatar Imposters perhaps..
WarKirby Magojiro: That sounds like avatar impostors being oversealous. Have you tried increasing avatar detail?
polysilox Apogee: i am always maxed out.....
Patchouli Woollahra: avatar imposters - because SL should look like Habitat.
Milton Wisent: Is there a way to do a keyword search in the bug list?
WarKirby Magojiro: What was your comment, milton?
Patchouli Woollahra: I suggest disabling "Avatar Imposters" in your graphics options then.
WarKirby Magojiro: yes, there is. It has a very detailed search. Click find issues in the top bar on jira
Pastrami Linden: heads up people- about 5-10 mins left!
Multi Chair Coffee Table v1.0.39 (Blue and Black) whispers: Drew Dzieciol took a copy of the Multi Chair Help notecard.
Sorraya Pera: sorry
Damian Delacroix: And then.. you never see Lindens around again... ;-P
Damian Delacroix: j/k
Milton Wisent: Torley Linden: Torley Linden: Milton: I don't understand? You can set the preference however you want. >>If the atomspheric shaders are off, doesn't that mean you don't get the atomspheric effects:?
Jakyl Lightfoot: lol
WarKirby Magojiro: You can see lindens regularly at every bug triage meeting, generally.
Wef Bade: Is there any way to change default browser to open URL on SL client?
Patchouli Woollahra: If there aren't any, it's a bug.
Torley Linden: Milton: What's your desired behavior here? What do you want to see? =)
Torley Linden: OMG Deus Ex 3 teaser... that game better not suck!
Patchouli Woollahra: Wef: the browser in SL is the uBrowser as built inhouse by LL.
Damian Delacroix: Oh! I know one I had..
Wef Bade: Does anyone know registry to change default browser for SL client?
Milton Wisent: I would like to see the full windlight effects and not have all the detail bleached out
Patchouli Woollahra: Torley: it probably will.
KingHenrik Lundquist thinks Torley has a tad bit of ADD.
Pastrami Linden: Milton
Pastrami Linden: within a few releases,
Wef Bade: ah okay.
WarKirby Magojiro: Doesn't it use the system default
Damian Delacroix: Would be nice to have a setting to make an Environment setting your default..
Milton Wisent: with atmospheric shaders off I don't think that is the case
Pastrami Linden: you;ll probaby have that
Wef Bade: Patchouli, I really want to open links by Sleipnir.
Pastrami Linden: Damian, if you really want to do that,
Damian Delacroix: ..even when you log in.. you still have the environment settings you had when you left.
Patchouli Woollahra: it's a problem with us autistics, King.
Torley Linden: KingHenrik: Just a multitasker.
Damian Delacroix listens..
Pastrami Linden: you can save over the current A-12pm
KingHenrik Lundquist: Torley: Liar.
Wef Bade: I wish its improved in future..
Milton Wisent: It is a known bug, Pastrami (have you ever been part of a Reuben?)
Torley Linden: =^_^=
Damian Delacroix: Thank you, Pastrami. :)
KingHenrik Lundquist: Whoa! I just realized my helmet is reflecting the sky!
Wef Bade: Anyway thanks.
KingHenrik Lundquist: gogglesoff
Pastrami Linden: Milton, it is a known bug, an dI prefer my delciious deli meats on warm kaiser rolls, marble rye *maybe*, and straight up with deli mustard. The whol russian dressing/kraut/siwss thing is nast, IMO
Torley Linden: We did internally discuss earlier, a way to have viewer-side settings persist between logins... if it becomes a popular enough feature request.
Torley Linden: And by that I specifically mean, the last setting you used (and didn't necessarily save).
Patchouli Woollahra: Pastrami: I prefer smoked salmon and dill butter in one-day-old New Norcia rolls.
WarKirby Magojiro: Is there an issue open for it yet?
Claudius Fouroux: ok now that u guys are here.. im not able to login to the issue tracker.... >> Set $wgShowExceptionDetails = true; in LocalSettings.php to show detailed debugging information.
Pastrami Linden: mmmmmmm
Milton Wisent: There doesn't appear to be anyway to search the bug list
Torley Linden: Claudius: I'll have a look at that.
Torley Linden: Time to time the Issue Tracker breaks down like that, it's frustrating.
Claudius Fouroux: thanks man
Torley Linden: I often ask for Rob Linden's help.
WarKirby Magojiro: Milton. Click find issues
WarKirby Magojiro: or type in the quick search bar in the top right of jira
Patchouli Woollahra: Torley: I know- it breaks down right when I'm about to look in it, more often than not.
Patchouli Woollahra: I'm like, a jinx?
Torley Linden: Milton: For details on how to use the Issue Tracker, see: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Issue_tracker
Torley Linden: Jira jinx? I hope not, Patch. =)
Torley Linden: I usually use the "Quick Search" bar with "AND" for multiple words, e.g., "WindLight AND avatar".
Milton Wisent: It would actually be nice to save multiple view settings for different things and not have to enter preferences to change them
Torley Linden: Yes Milton, you can do that. You can create filters.
Patchouli Woollahra: ah BOOLEAN.
Torley Linden: I really recommend reading the documentation.
Milton Wisent: and be able to give each set of settings a name
Torley Linden: Oh, you mean in WindLight, Milton?
Phli Foxchase: so when will be the next wondlight update ?
Milton Wisent: stuff like the onrez interface may have
Phli Foxchase: windlight*
Pastrami Linden: Phli, within a few days
Phli Foxchase: ok :)
WarKirby Magojiro: You can save sky and water settings
Torley Linden: Milton... we do intend to eventually create packages (share-able inventory AKA tradeable assets) of WindLight settings...
Patchouli Woollahra: I understand it'll be partly forced - we're going to a new login scheme?
WarKirby Magojiro: when you're adjusting, click new
WarKirby Magojiro: and type in a n ame
Torley Linden: so it seems like it'd be more cohesive down the road.
WarKirby Magojiro: then hit save
WarKirby Magojiro: the tradeable presets sound nice,
Patchouli Woollahra: I fear the day when that comes.
Torley Linden: You may also wanna see the WindLight video tutorial I did, it shows how easy some of this stuff is once you get into it: http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/11/15/tip-of-the-week-11-welcome-to-windlight/
Patchouli Woollahra: Day-glo Presets will come.
Torley Linden: Thanks everyone for being with us here today!
polysilox Apogee: on another note... love the new search function in the preview.......
Claudius Fouroux: Thank you for listening to us:P
Torley Linden: If you want to make your whole screen glow, you can attach an HUD and make it glow... I know there's a few weird visual glitches with it tho.
Torley Linden: You're welcome Claudius.
Claudius Fouroux: great job, keep it up, adios:)
Damian Delacroix: Quick question: Which open office hours meeting would I attend for MAP image issues?
Torley Linden: polysilox: Oh yeah I'm glad you do! That's Search Team's magic.
Torley Linden: Damian: Hmmm there isn't a specific one, but what sort of issue are you having?
Damian Delacroix: Specifically.. the map disappearing as you zoom out?
Torley Linden: Damian, oh, that bug. Known issue too. :\ Angela Linden was working on that recently.
Torley Linden: That's been a prob for awhile...
Damian Delacroix: Can't see much of anything at all.. sims disappearing..
Patchouli Woollahra: actually, if you want, take a closer look at my brooch... it's got a bit of transclucency faking with Windlight.
Pastrami Linden: you can also make the whole world glow by setting your RenderGlowMinLuminance lower
Pastrami Linden: in debug settings
Torley Linden: Try contacting Angela directly, or angela at lindenlab dot com I think.
Patchouli Woollahra: Windlight + brown shell surface w. very low transparency + inner glowing prim = zomg oiled paper lamp.
Torley Linden: Hee hee Pastrami, wedding photo time!
Patchouli Woollahra scribbles <get photos taken with Jennyfur> in Torley's work diary.
Torley Linden: o.o
Pastrami Linden: Patchouli, you wanna res one of those lamps for me to see?
WarKirby Magojiro: Quite a lot of new faces at this meeting
Damian Delacroix: Thanks Lindens.. good meeting. Lots of info.
Torley Linden: You're welcome, Damian, thanx for coming, and we have another session on Thurs., and next Tues. at this time too.
Patchouli Woollahra: insufficient watermelons this time though.
Torley Linden: The schedule repeats!
Torley Linden: Mmmm melon.
Pastrami Linden: yes thanks all!
Torley Linden: Our WindLight Office Hour sched is here http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Windlight#Visit_our_inworld_Office_Hours
BigPapi Linden: Thank you everyone!!!
Steve Steed: G'Day Mate!
Patchouli Woollahra: well, I best get back to cooking dinner. at 2am.
BigPapi Linden: Happy lighting!
Torley Linden: We really REALLY appreciate the feedback. I'm going to post the chat transcript up on that page later.
Brad Linden: thanks all
polysilox Apogee: thanks.....
Sierra Larsen: @ warkirby yeh i been fighting in teh great war............ i am bruised and battered .......... so this is one of hte first meetings i have attended
WarKirby Magojiro: :D
Torley Linden: The world needs more love!
WarKirby Magojiro: good to se new people taking an interest
Torley Linden: Yup for sure.
Torley Linden: Always nice to have a mix of old and new faces.
Torley Linden: Veterans and newcomers welcome!
Sierra Larsen: yesh we all need lots a lovin
Patchouli Woollahra: and no prokofy in sight. thank god.
polysilox Apogee: hahaha
Torley Linden: ^_^
Torley Linden: Bai for now, take care everyone.
Multi Chair Coffee Table v1.0.39 (Blue and Black) whispers: Drew Dzieciol took a copy of the Multi Chair Help notecard.
KingHenrik Lundquist: Take care!
WarKirby Magojiro: bye for now, torley
Sierra Larsen: bibiiibibibibbibibibibibibbibibibiibi
Pastrami Linden: see you everyone!
Milton Wisent: bye
Gramma Fiddlesticks: bye all. Thanks Lindens. This was very informative. I'll try to come again and. -))
Sierra Larsen: thank u come again
BigPapi Linden: See you all next time!
Torley Linden: *waves and smiles*
Torley Linden: Rock on Team WindLight.
Brad Linden: Later all, thanks for coming!