Open Source Meeting/2010-07-20

== Agenda Tuesday, 20 July 2010 ==
# Weekly Snowglobe update - Merov Linden
# While the windows prebuild libs scripts has been published ( http://bitbucket.org/brad_linden/build-lindenlib ), the Linux and MAC build scripts are still MIA.
# Few topics to retouch:
## Depth of moving from LL prebuild scripts to pure standalone Snowglobe (meaning true standalone not based on any system library, not cmake's standalone build for linking with systems libs.) Good candidate to keep in bitbucket.
## Shared library version of Snowglobe viewer. Would a patch be accepted and maintained if it only allowed this options and exposed a few calls? Maybe -DSHARED:BOOL=TRUE
## If we turn the viewer into a prebuilt/distributable shared library, would this increase chances of support for a 64 bit version?
## (I have lots more for another day... lol)
# Unity3D devs make a move in-world, yet they won't support Linux (even though they say multiplatform) -- could LL fill this gap with (hint) distributable shared library that'll eventually be narrowed down to an embeddable renderer. Pretty much already there if all inventory related functions were separated from the scene, which neither one needs really to know about the other in a constant frame loop.
# pJIRA SNOW project: Can we please get a "2.1" (and maybe also already a "2.2") option for "Affects/s Verion(s)" and "Fix Version(s)"?
# Your topic here!
If we run out of topics before the end of the meeting, we'll triage Snowglobe or Open Source specific Jira Issues from the list below.
=== Jira Issues ===
# After discussion, r3349 was reverted. Do these still need discussion (e.g. for viewer-external)?:
## Changeset 3349 added unit test to llplugin but forgot LL_TESTS, resulting in a build failure in lltut.cpp
## Tries to build pulseaudio when pulseaudio not found.
## Standalone build failure r3349, cmake error on SLPlugin
## Bulding of integration_tests when not needed
## Notifier Issue Since [sldev-commits] r3349
## (Robin Cornelius)
## Make libllcommon shared for SLPlugin + plugins on 1.4
## Ready to commit (Aleric Inglewood)
## idem
# Unscheduled SNOW issues triage: would be good to go with the community through those and decide for some what we should take immediately (2.0 or 1.4) or later.
If you think an issue warrants a deeper discussion, please add it as topic to one of the agendas above.
== Transcript ==
[13:57]	:	Hi all
[13:57]	:	hello
[13:57]	:	hey everyone
[13:58]	:	can some one tp me please
[13:58]	:	hey anyone know how to fix the issue of the webkit plugin constnatly failing to load ?
[13:58]	:	thx
[13:59]	:	Cummere: Details? (OS, 32/64bit, pJIRA)
[13:59]	:	windows xp
[13:59]	:	no jira yet. it hasnt let me log in
[14:00]	:	but seriously everything i do seems to trigger that
[14:00]	:	i do not have that issue
[14:00]	:	it started for me when i installed the 3505 build of 2.1
[14:01]	:	hey merov
[14:01]	:	hey merov
[14:01]	:	ive developed an intresting issue
[14:01]	 	kicks jira and hopes it will let her log in
[14:01]	:	hello
[14:01]	:	sorry to be late
[14:02]	:	1 min
[14:02]	:	make that 2
[14:02]	:	it ok mervo in the past 10 min have hard crashed
[14:02]	:	every thing i do causes me to get the "web_kit_media_ plugin has failed to load. started when i installed the 3505 build and stayed with even after a complete unistall and reinstall of 2.0
[14:03]	 	dose his own builds
[14:03]	:	I saw that the agenda has been filled with issues and questions
[14:03]	:	good
[14:03]	:	Ler
[14:03]	:	Let's start with the first one
[14:03]	:	Snowglobe update
[14:04]	:	well, let's postpone that one since point 2 is critical in talking about this
[14:04]	:	point 2: who screwedup the builds?
[14:04]	:	heh, aleric says he just sommited a fix
[14:04]	 	retranslates the question...
[14:05]	:	oh, he's here, never mind...
[14:05]	:	well, he may have fixed something but I found something deeper in the export process
[14:05]	:	the asset_urls.txt files are all screwed up and I was wondering why
[14:05]	:	it turns out that one bit of script I relied on was erased when moving to TeamCity
[14:06]	:	that'd be SNOW-755
[14:06]	:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-755 [#SNOW-755] wrong URLs in ./doc/asset_urls.txt
[14:06]	:	hey robin
[14:06]	:	Hey everyone
[14:06]	:	so the way the file name was built in the different phases of the script (build, export, then finalize) was inconsistent
[14:07]	:	I found out what's missing this morning and will work with CG on how to put that back in wothout breaking other things
[14:07]	:	when that's fixed , things should go back to normal, with correct lib bundles and all
[14:07]	:	and eventually correct binaries...
[14:08]	 	wonders if that might be what cause the plugins to all break for me?
[14:08]	:	I'm sorry for the disurbance but this TeamCity move threw a wrench in my plan and processes :/
[14:09]	:	that's my prio #1 to fix though
[14:10]	:	merov you know what the say oabout the best laid plans
[14:10]	:	I also asked Aimee to help me fix the Mac build/package issue, there's something wrong there also
[14:11]	:	that brings me to point 1: update from me was mostly fighting the build monster, merging to get trunk synced with 2.1 and, finally, met in RL with Oz :)
[14:11]	:	net burping on me
[14:11]	:	k, back to topics
[14:12]	:	gggrrrrrrr
[14:12]	:	3.1 Depth of moving to standalone
[14:12]	:	I don't understand "depth"?
[14:12]	:	we kinda touched on those with Oz
[14:12]	:	I think topic 2 is actually something else then you talked about just now. Isn't that about the published scripts for building the pre-build bundles?
[14:12]	:	is that "difficulty"?
[14:13]	:	ok wonders if im here
[14:13]	:	Yes, WolfPup, you're here
[14:13]	:	Boroondas: aw right, I read too fast
[14:13]	:	I think merov is trying to breif us before he takes our questions wolfpup
[14:13]	:	I added that last week
[14:13]	:	and been too focused on build recently
[14:13]	:	:-P
[14:14]	:	that is supprizing with the way my net keeps hickuping
[14:14]	:	All the libraries that get prebuilt, the question is in regards to those.
[14:14]	:	so, point 2: the "autobuild" project
[14:14]	:	I did 15 commits today... mostly for standalone and a lot for having libraries in weird places (aka, support for CMAKE_INSTALL_PATH and CMAKE_LIBRARY_PATH)... but now I can build and run 1.4 and 2.1, standalone and non-standalone :/...
[14:14]	:	Nothing seems really broken?
[14:15]	:	grrr net
[14:15]	:	(except media plugin on 2.1 which doesn't work)
[14:15]	:	which media plugin for you aleric?
[14:15]	:	wait Aleric: lets finish point 2. I'm lost in the discussion there.
[14:15]	:	the webkit or ?
[14:15]	 	waits
[14:15]	:	2.3 is answered... waiting for me to type up soem use-cases
[14:16]	:	Cummere: yeah
[14:16]	:	so, Brad did post "build-lindenlib" for Windows
[14:16]	:	not for Mac or Linux
[14:16]	:	brb
[14:16]	:	will need to read the log for today
[14:16]	:	that was an experiment toward "autobuild" which is a more complete version of this
[14:17]	:	right
[14:17]	:	he is committed to get that done eventually but was tied with viewer 2.1 release
[14:17]	:	then, another thing he's been working on and that I'll be working on with him is move to hg for all
[14:18]	:	that effort sounds like a good candidate to start it off in hg repos instead of svn
[14:18]	:	since there was talk to move to hg
[14:18]	:	we will do that before finishing Autobuild as this svn/hg double personality is costing us quite a bit
[14:19]	:	possibly lay some groundwork to build a pure prebuilt (hint: true standalone) version of linux snowglobe
[14:19]	:	"pure prebuilt"?
[14:19]	:	not requiring any system libs at all, I guess
[14:19]	:	right
[14:19]	:	internally so that means we need to clean up our act so we don't mix code we that we export (under GPL) and not exportable code in the same repo
[14:20]	:	please don't overload 'standalone' to mean 'NO system libraries' ARGHHH
[14:20]	:	that's the work we'll be attacking together (Brad already did some leg up there though)
[14:20]	:	i hope some one will be making notes
[14:20]	:	k, I think I covered 2 entirely
[14:20]	:	Aleric, it is already overloaded... it would be fixing it
[14:20]	:	my network has got the hick-ups
[14:21]	:	Either it means "with system libs", or it mean "without system libs", .. who was first and who thought of using it in the other way?!
[14:21]	:	I think everybody agrees by now that "standalone" is a bad choice of term.
[14:21]	:	(it's only when it goes the hick down you have to worry)
[14:21]	:	now, next: 3.1 : I need to confess I don't understand the question
[14:22]	:	aimee im getting about 10% of what is being said right now
[14:22]	:	"Depth of moving..." what does that mean?
[14:22]	:	Merov, drowning ?
[14:23]	:	Depth of moving... like how much can we cover about this issue
[14:23]	:	are you guys asking for Snowglobe build to be done "standalone"?
[14:23]	:	as an open source ground
[14:23]	 	thinks depth is bad word choice -_-
[14:24]	:	this goes deeper into discussion of: why has prebuilts?
[14:24]	:	have*
[14:24]	:	i think they are wondering just how far into the souce it can go open
[14:24]	:	if we want a pure standalone build... that would mean it would cleanly build 32 bit or 64bit... all libraries
[14:24]	:	we build our own libs for several reasons but I mostly see 2:
[14:25]	:	the libraries would be either prebuilt or autobuilts
[14:25]	:	1- make sure that the user doesn't run into missing libs issues when running the viewer
[14:25]	:	"Depth of moving" part was added by Boroondas
[14:25]	:	I added it originally
[14:25]	:	oh
[14:25]	:	2 - some libs are built with non default options
[14:25]	:	I just copied it from thursday's agenda
[14:26]	:	(it wasn't really covered because Merov was absent, then)
[14:26]	:	e.g. curl (built with cares on)
[14:27]	:	in regards to "some libs are built with nondefault options" that has raised the question if any reason why the libs have to be autobuilt in order to set them... xulrunner/webkit was custom for example
[14:28]	:	yes, we do as little "custom" stuff as possible (there's no value in doing this, it's only when we have to)
[14:28]	:	if there really is no customization... then maybe we should just pass on the prebuilts and just standardize to system libs only
[14:28]	:	ideally, we should, I don't know how far we are from this nirvana though
[14:29]	:	right... so doesn't the interim solution seem like to continue with an autobuild process for now
[14:29]	:	everytime I had to redo one of those bundle (e.g. curl for SNOW-2, or various boost bundles) there was always one little tweak to include
[14:29]	:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-2 [#SNOW-2] Curl crashers
[14:30]	:	I'd like to add to the agenda: Missing information from sldev-commits mailinglist.
[14:30]	:	believe me, we'd happily get *out* the business of redoing builds of 3rd party libs!
[14:30]	:	Seems pretty urgent that that gets fixed :/
[14:30]	:	there's *0* value in there for us
[14:31]	:	The commit comments are missing, the revision number is missing... often you don't even know what revision a successful build is for.
[14:31]	:	Aleric: yeap, that's part of the move to TeamCity: some info extracted by the mail creation are now missing,
[14:31]	:	I'm fixing export bindle correctness first though
[14:31]	:	Merov, one use-case of #3 is item #4.... so turning the viewer into a library would help achieve... if we do that then there is certainly the question of what prebuilts are still needed
[14:32]	:	Dzonatas: yes, that's an open question
[14:32]	:	intentionally left open, yes
[14:32]	:	one that we need to revisit when doing the Autobuild project
[14:33]	:	i think you have the gist of this
[14:34]	:	to be sure, I see a couple of actions/tasks to be complete before we do any of 2, 3 and 4
[14:34]	:	- stabilize the current build system
[14:34]	:	What does "turning the viewer into a library" mean? In the end, you need an executable, don't you?
[14:34]	:	- move to hg
[14:35]	:	- publish autobuild
[14:35]	:	- clean up internal repo to separate viewer/server/common code
[14:36]	:	when we get there, some of those will be orders of magnitude easier to tackle...
[14:36]	:	Me notes again that the *viewer* needs 'common' code that rather is common between the viewer and SLPlugin, .. not common with 'some server'...
[14:36]	:	e.g. provide 64 bit supprot
[14:36]	:	Boroondas, think of an embedded viewer... yet could be made more "basic"
[14:37]	:	ic
[14:37]	:	So, you should think of splitting libcommon up into two libraries: one that is common between viewer and SLPlugin, and one that is common between server and viewer.
[14:38]	:	well, on all those point3 questions, I don't disagree on any, I'm just thinking that it's a tad too early before tacking them
[14:38]	:	(actually... it isn't that simply now I think of it... you could need 4 libs: SV, VP, (SP?) and SVP)
[14:38]	:	Aleric: no, ideally, one lib for all... though you can ignore the fact that the server code is also using it...
[14:40]	:	They DOES shift the meaning of 'common' in llcommon :p. Clearly it meant common between server and viewer in the past (pre-plugins). And now it would really start to mean 'common between viewer and plugins'.
[14:40]	:	libcommon is covering very basic things, I think the higher level stuff are in llmessage, most is super generic (e.g. all of llmath)
[14:41]	:	more like common between renderer and llmedia'
[14:41]	:	That too... not all plugins use the bulk of the code related to that.
[14:42]	:	Aleric: you are correct as for the commonality with SLPlugin
[14:42]	:	there is no plugin for inventory =)
[14:42]	:	In the future we might have a lot of plugins, so we really shouldn't link all of them with any static library
[14:43]	:	and the inventory code really doesn't need to share the same process space as the renderr
[14:43]	 	just wishes she could get the webkit plugin to work again -_-
[14:43]	:	scene*
[14:43]	:	we're wondering if we shouldn't have a separate repo and project for this shared common dynamic lib
[14:44]	:	Well, for now, seeing as much trouble the plugins are for some Residents, we should keep their count as low as possible. Once they work reliably, modularizing the viewer isn't a bad idea, I guess.
[14:44]	:	BTW, one thing we also need to address with Brad while doing this hg project is clean up drop of non repo stuff in the source tree
[14:44]	:	like SNOW-508 for instance
[14:44]	:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-508 [#SNOW-508] we really need to decide how to handle glh/glh_linear.h for standalone cases
[14:45]	:	this is maddening, one shouldn't drop things in the clone repo to get it built...
[14:45]	:	What you think of my suggestion there?
[14:45]	:	a separate repos may benefit with less changes to that repos... merges could become easier
[14:45]	:	yet if the files are duplicated in another repos, then it might not get used
[14:46]	:	Aleric : I haven't analyzed in details yet but it's very interesting
[14:46]	:	non-changing files don't matter for merges (if your SCM fulfils any definition of "sane")
[14:46]	:	Oz is really pushing for cleaning up all that to make build easy
[14:47]	:	:-)
[14:47]	:	he struggled soo much to build his first viewer... still has fresh scars...
[14:47]	:	Merov: I'm already doing it :p (Using my environment based buildsystem as described here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Development_Environment_for_Multiple_Viewers #viewers.2Fenv.viewers)
[14:47]	:	errm never mind the #part.
[14:47]	:	so he definitely thinks it's something that prevents more community involvement, I think he's right
[14:47]	:	let oz know i simpathize with him it took me two week to get ming going
[14:48]	:	Aleric: I know, we all have our 1 command line receipe...
[14:48]	:	+1 Oz view of building
[14:48]	:	+1? hell +10
[14:48]	:	I can build Snowglobe on Mac or Windows from scratch in 15 min build included...
[14:49]	:	We've improved the documentation. While the process is still more complicated than necessairy, one can at least read how to do it (for most common cases.)
[14:49]	:	"Hell+10" is probably a fair assessment
[14:49]	:	but then, when someone comes up with a tiny bit different config... collapse...
[14:49]	 	giggles at Aimee
[14:49]	:	merov it takes me 2 hours to do a build
[14:49]	:	mine are 1.5 to 2 hours from clean
[14:49]	:	After my fixes of today, you can just set CMAKE_INCLUDE_PATH and CMAKE_LIBRARY_PATH to some viewer specific directory (I use $PROJECTBASE/include). I then have a link from there to the libraries in linden/libraries/include (ake, tut). That way I can pick up libs from libraries/include without the risk to pick up libs that I don't want.
[14:50]	:	I'm blessed with Incredibuild here at the office :)
[14:50]	:	im having to run vs2005 on windows 7 32-bit
[14:50]	:	Merov dont barg too much, oz might hear and steal it from you
[14:50]	:	*brag
[14:51]	:	can not even use vs2008 at all
[14:51]	:	anyway, everything that cleans up the repo hierarchy, build process, etc.... is *good* and helps everyone
[14:52]	:	I've one Snowglobe Question to Robin: what about SOCKS5 port to SG2.x?
[14:52]	:	i would be happy if all the dang test could be turned off from building that would cut my build time in half
[14:52]	:	but if i try to turn them off then the whole build fails
[14:53]	:	Which brings us to the question: what happens to commits made to the snowglobe repository? Is there some offical traject for them where each of them are judged on whether or not they are wanted in viewer-external, and if so, are merged upstream?
[14:53]	:	Merov, i'm working on it (socks port)
[14:53]	:	Aleric: I spent most of yesterday with Oz and other folks discussing that precisely :)
[14:54]	:	i've been doing little bits here and there inbetween other work but iv'e not gone mad with the total state of flux the repositorys have been in for a while
[14:54]	:	(I think all of my 16 or-so commits of today should be merged upstream- standalone or not... but my *feeling* about it is that if I don't keep bugging you they will surely be /dev/null-ed regarding upstream).
[14:54]	:	short answer: yes, we want this to happen! details are still murky, lots of ideas floating around, decisions shortly
[14:54]	:	ok
[14:55]	:	Merov, did you already get to the point of reviewing individual patches/changesets? or is that still a ways off?
[14:55]	:	I think, long term, Snowglobe should become the upstream for LL.
[14:56]	:	It just makes sense for the open project to be upstream of any closed or semi-closed one.
[14:56]	:	We do that already and incoporate in SG but, where the process is broken, is percolating that to the main internal viewer
[14:56]	:	as Aleric pointed tp
[14:56]	:	i think LL would say yes to the dynamic lib as upstream... but LL might want to add its own custom UI
[14:56]	:	Boroondas, thats the webkit approach
[14:58]	:	k, I'm intrigued by point 4 : Unity3D
[14:58]	:	so #4 is like what Robin just said, the webkit approach
[14:59]	:	What has Unity3D to do with SL? Don't they make browser plugins for web-embedded 3D stuff?
[14:59]	:	from what I understand, Unity3D is non-opensource, non-running-on-linux, and non-streaming content.
[14:59]	:	Thickbrick, exactly
[14:59]	:	agh... that's a lot of "not"
[14:59]	:	brb
[15:00]	:	anyone has some hacking experience with it though?
[15:01]	:	sounds like a "no"...
[15:01]	:	k, it's 3pm already
[15:01]	:	my twitter feed mentions it often
[15:01]	:	merov can we hit the next one fast?
[15:02]	:	point 5: I need to contact someone to giveme credential to make those changes....
[15:02]	:	I don't know why I lost them...
[15:02]	:	:(
[15:03]	:	I did edit that list of version in JIRA admin UI in the past but I don'tget access to admin anymore
[15:03]	:	<sihg/>
[15:03]	:	:-
[15:03]	:	a mistake I think...
[15:03]	:	merov since the merg firday evening snow-754 has showed up
[15:03]	:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-754 [#SNOW-754] Windlight: Water and Sky has dark patches and flickering with atmospheric shaders are turn off.
[15:03]	:	anyway, yes, that's bugging me too
[15:04]	:	maybe you'll get to finish http textures?
[15:04]	:	or further expand it
[15:04]	:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-759 has showed up recently too.
[15:04]	:	[#SNOW-759] Media plugin Failure: Webkik on SG 2.1
[15:05]	:	here comes techwolf i hope i do not crash from the textures loading
[15:05]	:	Got back from dinnor....was the hour changed?
[15:05]	:	well, we need to address those new bugs
[15:06]	:	no tech your late
[15:06]	:	I don't have an update on them
[15:06]	:	yeah the second of those makes everything in ALL 2.0 based viewers unsuable for me
[15:06]	:	eeek
[15:06]	:	*unuseable
[15:06]	:	cant use search, see webbased media, nothin
[15:06]	:	what bugs?
[15:07]	:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-759
[15:07]	:	[#SNOW-759] Media plugin Failure: Webkit on SG 2.1
[15:07]	:	tech
[15:07]	:	and then the windlight flickering sky bug too
[15:07]	:	did you build your own viewer Cummere?
[15:07]	:	nope.
[15:07]	:	used the download of the 3505 build
[15:07]	:	I get those failure only when minimizing for long perooids of tiem and when I un-mininimzed, I get about 4 of those windows.
[15:07]	:	then wiped it and tried to go back to sg 2.0
[15:08]	:	hmm... I'll be more confident talking about it then once I'm done checking the whole TeamCity production chain...
[15:08]	:	I hope someone has a trasnscript for the past hour...
[15:08]	:	I've got to run, Merov, socks 5 is looking like i'll get it done soon so may be news later in the week or at least by this time next week
[15:08]	:	thanks Robin
[15:08]	:	I need to go too
[15:08]	:	Jira needs to have Snowglobe 2.1
[15:09]	:	BTW also found methods of socks5 the vivox daemon as well
[15:09]	:	Yes Techwolf: that's point 5 of the agenda
[15:09]	:	What was the outcome of #2?
[15:09]	 	checks
[15:09]	:	boroondas said she would put it up if no one else dose as my network has has the hick-up's for the past hour
[15:09]	:	see you people
[15:10]	:	ciao
[15:10]	:	tc thick
[15:10]	:	thank you
[15:10]	:	thank you for your time
[15:10]	:	I'll do. Btw, does someone have the full transscript for last week's tuesday? (July 13)
 
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