Open Source Meeting/2009-03-12

== Agenda ==
No posted agenda
== Transcript ==
* [14:00] Soft Linden: Copter. Most unexpected!
* [14:01] Aimee Trescothick: yeeeeah
* [14:01] Soft Linden: Nice as it is... thinking we don't need it today. :>
* [14:01] Aimee Trescothick: I have a better one
* [14:01] Soft Linden: Oh really - no autoreturn on this parcel?
* [14:02] Soft Linden: roflcopter :>
* [14:02] Aimee Trescothick: yeah, meant to mention that the other week
* [14:02] Soft Linden: I'll set it at an hour. Should be plenty for demo purpose.
* [14:02] Aimee Trescothick: yeah
* [14:03] Rob Linden: hi folks
* [14:03] Soft Linden: Could be short one today unless there are specific questions - do we have an agenda?
* [14:03] Twisted Laws: hello
* [14:03] Digit Ditko: hi
* [14:03] Soft Linden: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source_Meeting/Agenda
* [14:04] Soft Linden: If wiki wakes up...
* [14:04] Soft Linden: No items.
* [14:04] Rob Linden: no items on the agenda
* [14:04] Twisted Laws: someone was putting out rumors of an end to client open source from Linden Labs
* [14:05] Rob Linden: nothing of the sort is happening. where'd you hear that?
* [14:05] Soft Linden: Ha. If that were true, you'd probably see an end to Soft too!
* [14:05] Twisted Laws: it was on the beta group i think
* [14:05] Twisted Laws: figured (and hoped) it wasn't true
* [14:06] Rob Linden: alls well on this front
* [14:06] Aimee Trescothick: I should have left the ROFLCopter out
* [14:06] Aimee Trescothick: :)
* [14:06] Twisted Laws: :)
* [14:06] Soft Linden: :>
* [14:06] Rob Linden: Twisted: do you do work on the client?
* [14:07] Twisted Laws: yes... i'm running my own modified client.....
* [14:07] Soft Linden: Actually, there's some truth to it. We don't plan to release any more 1.20 source. Or 1.19, 1.18, 1.17, etc.
* [14:07] Twisted Laws: i have some things that once i finish i plan on giving back to yous
* [14:07] Twisted Laws: oh, lol
* [14:07] Twisted Laws: going to remove old code access?
* [14:08] Soft Linden: No. Just no new old code.
* [14:08] Rob Linden: not even that
* [14:08] Twisted Laws: oh, yeah :p
* [14:08] Aimee Trescothick: why haven't you given us the stuff you haven't written yet dammit?
* [14:08] Rob Linden: what sort of things are you planning on contributing?
* [14:08] Twisted Laws: Twisted Live 1.22.10 (503) Mar 10 2009 14:57:08 (Twisted Open Source Viewer)
* [14:09] Twisted Laws: i've worked a lot with making better protections for client side in public areas
* [14:09] Twisted Laws: and some stuff with the mini-map and trying to get my hovertips to work on dots there
* [14:09] Aimee Trescothick: 's ears perk up at mention of the minimap
* [14:10] Soft Linden: Ah, fetch trunk if you haven't. There are hovertips for which dot is who presently.
* [14:10] Soft Linden: That will be part of 1.23.
* [14:10] Twisted Laws: server side radar is bad on sim perf....
* [14:10] Aimee Trescothick: if you're working on the minimap, you might want to look in the featurettes branch too
* [14:10] Twisted Laws: i figure a better "radar" client side would help
* [14:10] Twisted Laws: very cool :)
* [14:10] Twisted Laws: i will look
* [14:10] Aimee Trescothick: I did a bit of a code cleanup on the minimap stuff that's gone into featurettes, don't think it's gone through into trunk yet
* [14:11] Twisted Laws: usually i'm only working with your "released" code and not using svn to fetch
* [14:11] Aimee Trescothick: trunk has right click on minimap dots to get their profile and stuff too
* [14:11] Twisted Laws: also i have particle owner dialog and im from object id
* [14:12] Twisted Laws: very cool
* [14:12] Soft Linden: Ah, you want trunk there too. If you click on an item name when it speaks, you see a dialog with information about the item location, etc.
* [14:12] Twisted Laws: cool... particle owners is a good one to get sometime soon imho
* [14:12] Soft Linden: Big yes on that!
* [14:13] Twisted Laws: maybe sound but thats not too bad...
* [14:13] Soft Linden: For both particle and sound sources, a browsable list would be great anti-griefing tools.
* [14:13] Twisted Laws: and close all dialogs button
* [14:14] Techwolf Lupindo: List work much better when tracking things down then trying to chase moving objects/particials in world.
* [14:14] Twisted Laws: yes, soft... dale glass's version has that in there and i used some of his code to get me started
* [14:14] Soft Linden: Cool
* [14:14] Lubo Loon: when will ll release a 64bit binary compiled version of sl? At the moment there are problems using the bin on a 64bit linux machine(sl crash when try to use 64bit gstreamer)
* [14:14] Soft Linden: He's got a lot of things he hasn't yet dropped back into pJIRA. I'd looove to see him active again.
* [14:15] Techwolf Lupindo: I build from source and never enconter that crash due to 64 bit build with 64 bit gstreamer.
* [14:15] Lubo Loon: techwolf, i know. i will use your ebuilds in some minutes :-D
* [14:16] Digit Ditko: i have'nt been able to get a 64 bit build working yet
* [14:16] Soft Linden: don't think a 64 bit client is coming any time too soon. There would be considerable extra QA work in another binary, and QA is already spread way thing.
* [14:16] Lestat Demain: oh does that mean i have to make my own?
* [14:17] Soft Linden: I think if any of us pushed it, the answer would be that it's a higher priority to get the 32-bit viewer in better shape.
* [14:17] Techwolf Lupindo: I hope LL still accects bug and fixes for 64 bit builds.
* [14:17] Soft Linden: Oh yes, definitely. We'll import all 64-bit fixes.
* [14:17] Lubo Loon: isnt that just running the same through an 64bit compiler then a 32bit one?
* [14:17] Soft Linden: But I don't see us actually releasing a binary ourselves.
* [14:18] Digit Ditko: i personally find that the linux builds are not totally stable
* [14:18] Soft Linden: Mostly yes, but not really. Different render bugs, etc manifest in 64 bit builds.
* [14:18] Soft Linden: The problem is there may be far fewer bugs than with a new platform port, but you still have to QA the entire thing to find those.
* [14:18] Techwolf Lupindo: Note that building a 32 bit build on a 64 bit system will have differences from a 32 bit build on a 32 bit OS. So the best way to build a 32 bit client is on a full 32 OS install.
* [14:19] Digit Ditko: that's why the gods invented vms
* [14:19] Techwolf Lupindo: hehe
* [14:19] Feallight Hellershanks: VirtualBox to the rescue!
* [14:19] Lubo Loon: okay, another point. why have ll removed the logitech g15 support?
* [14:19] Soft Linden: Yeah, or just jailing. There's nothing intrinsic in the kernel that would make 32 bit userland generate different binaries.
* [14:19] Lubo Loon: i loved it
* [14:19] Techwolf Lupindo: I have vmware here myself for dealing with windows stuff.
* [14:20] Lubo Loon: but since 21 its not inside any more. i hoped the whole time there will come also linux support but now you also remove the windows support
* [14:20] Feallight Hellershanks: i've tried to build a 64-bit linux version myself, with some success
* [14:20] Techwolf Lupindo: Chroot 32 bit jail shoud work also. Gentoo has a guide to do that.
* [14:20] Soft Linden: For the Logitech, not a lot of users. That engineering time is better spent on other things.
* [14:20] Soft Linden: I believe it was also a closed source component, no?
* [14:20] Rob Linden: Lubo: the G15 support ended up resulting in some maintenance overhead
* [14:20] Twisted Info: HUD V 3.0.2 whispers: scanning for Psitec and mystitool 38 items
* [14:20] Twisted Info: HUD V 3.0.2 whispers: scanning for active weapons 79 items
* [14:20] Twisted Info: HUD V 3.0.2 whispers: scanning for active Dopehuds 39 items
* [14:20] Twisted Info: HUD V 3.0.2 whispers: scanning for omnicom horus and force 11 items
* [14:20] Twisted Info: HUD V 3.0.2 whispers: scanning for omnicom horus and force 36 items
* [14:20] Lubo Loon: no, g15 support is opensource
* [14:21] Lubo Loon: also the whole driver (linux)
* [14:21] Rob Linden: Lubo: not the version we had...which version are you talking about?
* [14:21] Techwolf Lupindo: I have the spacenav joystick and the patches work on my system. I also tried out the trunk and the joystick work without patching it. Yea!
* [14:21] Lestat Demain: brrrr im getting reely tired of crashing every 15 seconds just because i bought 64bit
* [14:21] Lubo Loon: it would realy be great when it would be possible getting support
* [14:22] Twisted Laws: oh, another thing i added is to block rendering of any megaprim over 1024 (makes that size 10m) and made it adjustable what it blocks
* [14:22] Feallight Hellershanks: I had to use the non-fmod trunk to build under 64bit
* [14:23] Techwolf Lupindo: I also improve this patch, http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-9287 , to use the shift key to include the next part. I hope to post it later today on the pjira.
* [14:23] Feallight Hellershanks: will there be a migration away from fmod? or will you adapt the fmod 4 libs?
* [14:23] Lubo Loon: hm,okay, then the g15 windows is not open. but the linux one its defenitly(i build the driver from source). when i compile the sl client after the meeting from source and it works with 64bit gstreamer,i would stop using the windows one again.
* [14:23] Soft Linden: Getting lots of questions in parallel.
* [14:23] Rob Linden: Feallight: probably a move away from FMOD
* [14:23] Feallight Hellershanks: that's what I thought
* [14:23] Aimee Trescothick: when are you getting a multithreaded Soft?
* [14:24] Feallight Hellershanks: well that worked out okay, but my 64bit system has a crap video card so i can't tell if there are stability issues since it's so slow--but for the most part, it runs kay
* [14:24] Feallight Hellershanks: *okay
* [14:24] Soft Linden: Problem is my attention is already always split. Five questions at once here with two other IRC thing going on doesn't make for smart answers. :)
* [14:24] Rob Linden: we already moved to OpenAL on Linux in 1.22
* [14:24] Feallight Hellershanks: OpenAL--cool!
* [14:25] Lubo Loon: http://www.g15tools.com
* [14:25] Aimee Trescothick: such a shame FMOD is closed source :(
* [14:25] Feallight Hellershanks: it's been a while--I also had trouble trying to compile llmozlib under 64-bit linux
* [14:25] Soft Linden: Linux is sort of the test pilot here. Mac or Windows should follow next.
* [14:25] Techwolf Lupindo: Fearllight, openal works in both 32 and 64 and can handle different alsa setups. I have mine useing dmixs51 dmix plug in to get full surround on SL and other programs at the same time.
* [14:25] Lubo Loon: moving to opeal -> thanks. i have now finaly surround sound on my 7.1 speakers (not all speaker active but better then before)
* [14:25] Feallight Hellershanks: nice tech
* [14:26] Feallight Hellershanks: so that's now in the trunk? OpenAL support?
* [14:26] Soft Linden: Even 1.21 was openal, I believe. But only on Linux.
* [14:26] Feallight Hellershanks: i've been runing a lot under win32 so i haven't noticed
* [14:26] Techwolf Lupindo: Feallight, there is an gentoo ebuild that can build the llmozlib2 64 bit.
* [14:26] Soft Linden: I think 1.21 was the first.
* [14:26] Feallight Hellershanks: wow--too bad i'm using Ubuntu :-)
* [14:26] Soft Linden: Check out Michelle2 Zenovka's debian packages for 64 bit.
* [14:27] Lubo Loon: no. just since 1.22 rc8 openal is active
* [14:27] Soft Linden: Those will work with Ubuntu as well.
* [14:27] Feallight Hellershanks: drools--i will soft
* [14:27] Feallight Hellershanks: tx
* [14:27] Techwolf Lupindo: Fearligh, I think 1.22.RC8 has openal in it without patching it.
* [14:27] Lubo Loon: when will openal support come to windows?
* [14:27] Soft Linden: No schedule on that.
* [14:27] Soft Linden: I think it's wait and see right now.
* [14:28] Soft Linden: But there really haven't been any notable Linux problems.
* [14:28] Soft Linden: So that's a discussion we should have
* [14:29] Techwolf Lupindo: The only problem I have now is the fetteretts svn branch won't build on my system.
* [14:29] Rob Linden: the tricky part with OpenAL is that it doesn't have built in MP3 support, which menas we have to move that to other mechanisms
* [14:30] Feallight Hellershanks: there was one issue i ran into with the trunk build--a divide by zero issue--on my windows box, i didn't try to duplicate under linux
* [14:30] Soft Linden: Featurettes needs attention internally. I've got that on our agenda for the internal open source meeting. Some confusion on publishing.
* [14:30] Techwolf Lupindo: And my current build of the SL client that I use most of the time has radom crashes as usall. I have a full debug set and did post one pjira bug with the traces and got chew out by the trolls. So I don't even bother posting crashes anymore.
* [14:30] Soft Linden: Chewed out by trolls?
* [14:31] Rob Linden: Techwolf...which issue?
* [14:31] Techwolf Lupindo: I have to look it up.
* [14:31] Twisted Laws: 2 days, no crashes yet :)
* [14:32] Lestat Demain: im still having random crashes and its definately got something to do with graphics
* [14:32] Rob Linden: looks like it might have been this one: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-11945
* [14:33] Digit Ditko: all my crashes are related to streaming media
* [14:33] Feallight Hellershanks: i think mine might have had to do with i didn't get the latest assets
* [14:33] Soft Linden: Ah yeah. You need to keep the assets totally in sync
* [14:33] Soft Linden: There's still a lot of data-code version dependency.
* [14:34] Techwolf Lupindo: VWR-11945 was the crash with bt I posted.
* [14:34] Rob Linden: Techwolf: I'm kinda sad you deleted your comments and description there
* [14:34] Feallight Hellershanks: it was in the lltexteditor.cpp under llui
* [14:34] Lubo Loon: would it be possible to have the same screen i had on windows on the g15(dont need it when works on linux) on the linux opensource g15 driver? as i have read correctly, the g15 support on linux is also more easy then on windows. would be realy nice :)
* [14:34] Feallight Hellershanks: S32 line_height = llround( mGLFont->getLineHeight() );
* S32 page_size = mTextRect.getHeight() / line_height;
* [14:34] Feallight Hellershanks: and line_height was zero
* [14:35] Techwolf Lupindo: Rob, I was not happy with the results. Please forgive me. Sorry.
* [14:35] Rob Linden: Techwolf...just assume good faith. Alexa and Ellla are both good people and are trying to help
* [14:36] Rob Linden: tries to catch up on Soft and Feallight's conversation
* [14:36] Rob Linden: also hasn't forgotten about Lubo's question
* [14:36] Soft Linden: Not mine! I curled into a fetal position from threading again!
* [14:36] Techwolf Lupindo: Because gentoo has a split-debug feature, I can run with no performace lose and still have a full debugging setup.
* [14:37] Lubo Loon: ah, and anothe general sl-question. why is the binary not compiled with sse? maybe pentium 2 didnt had sse support, but all actual cpu's have sse
* [14:37] Lubo Loon: and sl never will run on a p2 or so
* [14:37] Soft Linden: Yeah. I'd check with newest assets. No guarantee against it happening with a mismatch.
* [14:37] Techwolf Lupindo: The code for detecting SEE SEE2 is broken. I have to add
* [14:37] Feallight Hellershanks: what i did was patch my local code to keep from crashing but i have not tested without the patch and latest assets
* [14:37] Techwolf Lupindo: -DLL_VECTORIZE=1 to the build.
* [14:38] Lubo Loon: i tested last the sse patch from the cool-sl viewer and got 9fps more speed
* [14:39] Lubo Loon: running here on: intel quadcore @ 3ghz,4gb ram,test was on vista 64bit, nvidia 8800ulta, 1920*1200
* [14:39] Soft Linden: Techwolf - that's definitely worth a conversation on sldev
* [14:39] Lubo Loon: fps incresed from 21fps to stable 30fps
* [14:39] Soft Linden: If there's something that simple that gives such a substantial performance improvement, people will want to know
* [14:39] Lestat Demain: im still wondering how vista gives me 12fps and xp peaks at 104fps...on a 9800
* [14:40] Techwolf Lupindo: When I build with -DLL_VECTORIZE=1 and run the client, instead of "updateVectorize: Vector Processor : COMPILER DEFAULT" it will get changed to "updateVectorize: Vector Processor : SSE". :-)
* [14:40] Techwolf Lupindo: SEE2 that is.
* [14:40] Soft Linden: Lestat - if you're using the automatically installed nvidia drivers, you want to download from nvidia's site.
* [14:40] Rob Linden: it's been a couple of years since we've looked at the SSE stuff. it was briefly in a release, but had to be reverted for stability reasons
* [14:40] Soft Linden: The certified ones are far, far slower under Vista.
* [14:41] Feallight Hellershanks: that's good to know, Soft
* [14:41] Techwolf Lupindo: I notice there was at one time a setting for google perfs, but has sence be diabled in cmake.
* [14:41] Lubo Loon: i have nearly same speed on xp then on vista and ~ -2fps on linux
* [14:41] Soft Linden: For Ununtu, unaccelerated drivers are installed by default.
* [14:42] Soft Linden: You have to go into the administration menu to tell it you're willing to use closed source drivers, at which point it installs accelerated ones.
* [14:42] Lubo Loon: i use the nvidia 180.37 from before 2 days or so
* [14:42] Lubo Loon: on linux
* [14:42] Feallight Hellershanks: a big difference for sure
* [14:43] Techwolf Lupindo: Is there a good random crash report on the pjira that I could follow next time I want to post a crash report with bt for the LL devolopers?
* [14:44] Rob Linden: Techwolf, the probelm with most crash reports that we get in JIRA is that they don't hae enough info for us to really act on. part of the problem....
* [14:44] Soft Linden: For crash reports, the most important thing is a step by step list of what you do. Reproducible is key.
* [14:44] Rob Linden: ....is our fault, because the way our crash reporter works, you don't have access to the information to provide a useful stack trace
* [14:44] Techwolf Lupindo: 180.37 has some bugs in it. gentoo had to mask it. I encounter the bugs. One was could not logout of kde4 and ctl-c would not work to stop programs.
* [14:45] Feallight Hellershanks: brb
* [14:45] Lubo Loon: ah, and another question. why does sl use not the full power of the cpu? it would be nice if it were possible to get a bit speedup. on windows and linux it uses just 35-45% of the 4cores. is it possible to give "bit" rendering work or so to the cpu when its such fast to get just few more fps?
* [14:45] Techwolf Lupindo: correction, .35 my bad.
* [14:45] Lubo Loon: 35 hat signal loss bugs
* [14:45] Lubo Loon: 37 is fine
* [14:45] Lestat Demain: i find not enough debugging info in the client software to actually put an easy to follow bug report anywhere
* [14:46] Techwolf Lupindo: What are the steps to reporduce a random crash?
* [14:47] Soft Linden: That's just it though. If it's just something that happened once and you can't tie it to anything you were doing... it's going to be premature for a crash report.
* [14:47] Rob Linden: Lestat, the problem is that the viewer often doesn't have all of the info you need (and providing it would make the download huge). so we have the crash reporter send the raw data to the server
* [14:48] Techwolf Lupindo: Is there a way to keep the crashreport from interfering wiht the core dump?
* [14:48] Lestat Demain: heh so a special client for codefreaks is out?
* [14:48] Feallight Hellershanks: back
* [14:48] Rob Linden: Lestat: you can absolutely compile your own debug build
* [14:48] Rob Linden: if you actually get a stack trace assocaited with a crash, that's huge
* [14:49] Techwolf Lupindo: Rob, I managed to do that a few times.
* [14:49] Feallight Hellershanks: yeah building your own is always an option
* [14:49] Rob Linden: Techwolf: you did?
* [14:50] Lestat Demain: generally i dont need a stack trace i redid this 1 so i just look at the last line of code and it usually falls over because its rejected an animation or its seized up because of the llvosculpt fault and yes its an old client
* [14:51] Techwolf Lupindo: Rob, yes. I build my client with -ggdb and use the splitdebug feature of gentoo. When I set ulimit -c unlimited and get a coredump of a random crash that the crashlogger misses, I can do a full gdb bt.
* [14:52] Rob Linden: stack traces are useful because they give a developer a chunk of code to look at for correctness, along with some context which might provde clues as towhat caused a crash
* [14:52] Techwolf Lupindo: Sometime I just get a backtrace on the console without doing anything.
* [14:53] Techwolf Lupindo: Is there a place where I can post/paste this info?
* [14:53] Feallight Hellershanks: on a windows dev system you can at least invoke the vc ide to get the backtrace
* [14:53] Feallight Hellershanks: the target "RelWithDebInfo" works pretty well for that
* [14:54] Rob Linden: Techwolf: that info in pjira is helpful
* [14:55] Rob Linden: Callstack+repro case is gold, but callstack alone, in some circumstances, can be enough. However....
* [14:55] Techwolf Lupindo: heh, due to .devolpe.py failing to include an include path. My ebuild uses cmake directlly instaead. One can re-verse enginner the ./devolope.py enought to get the cmake command out of it.
* [14:56] Feallight Hellershanks: nice
* [14:56] Feallight Hellershanks: nice move, by the way guys, going to cmake. kudos
* [14:57] Feallight Hellershanks: you got me into cmake now--i'm even going to give a talk at my lug about it on Monday!
* [14:57] Techwolf Lupindo: Rob, I may have the coredump, but I upgrade severl time, so I may have deleeted that perticialler crash sence the core dump can no longer work or be usefull unless the exact binarys are used.
* [14:57] Rob Linden: Techwolf: yeah, we're pretty likely to move away from develop.py, at least as the top level program
* [14:57] Soft Linden: Yes. Difficult though it was, it's saved a lot of headaches for non-Windows devs. :>
* [14:57] Feallight Hellershanks: god it saves headaches for people trying build under windows too
* [14:58] Feallight Hellershanks: and i can imagine what a pain that was having to maintain the vc project files and solutions
* [14:58] Feallight Hellershanks: i hate having to deal with that myself
* [14:58] Techwolf Lupindo: I also figure out viewer_manifest.py enough that I could use in a more package build friendly way. Turns out the docs are incorrect.
* [14:59] Digit Ditko: i use cmake for several cross platform projects, mac, linux, windows
* [14:59] Feallight Hellershanks: ditto
* [14:59] Rob Linden: Techwolf: please correct the docs: it's a wiki after all :)
* [14:59] Rob Linden: we're running out of time here today
* [14:59] Techwolf Lupindo: Both in the wiki and viewer_manifest.py itself.
* [15:00] Rob Linden: Techwolf: patches welcome
* [15:00] Feallight Hellershanks: i'm going to try to convince my client to switch to cmake too--even tho they are an all windows shop--it would help them tremendously
* [15:00] Techwolf Lupindo: Do I have access to the wiki?
* [15:00] Feallight Hellershanks: ack 3pm SLT
* [15:00] Rob Linden: Techwolf, you should....you have a Second Life account
* [15:00] Rob Linden: thanks everyone for coming!
* [15:00] Soft Linden: Take care!
* [15:00] Techwolf Lupindo: Oh, cmake install will not install the message.xml. And due to that, group chats didn't work.
* [15:00] Feallight Hellershanks: yeah message.xml is kinda important :-)
* [15:00] Soft Linden: No, art still has to be downloaded manually
* [15:00] Techwolf Lupindo: Are there plans to make cmake install work better?
* [15:01] Rob Linden: Techwolf: yup
* [15:01] Soft Linden: Yes, there's talk about making the art pack downloaded and installed like the other libs
* [15:01] Feallight Hellershanks: that would be nice
* [15:01] Soft Linden: It's a little messy though...
* [15:01] Techwolf Lupindo: I figureed out that cmake install is not use for the LL build, but you have given me hope that it will be used. yea
* [15:01] Soft Linden: The setup isn't really there to -uninstall- libraries except by nuking the build directory
* [15:01] Feallight Hellershanks: cmake can get that way--but i likle the way you guys organized things
* [15:01] Soft Linden: And the art pack files sit all throughout the tree.
* [15:02] Rob Linden: Iv'e gotta run, but feel free to keep talking if you like
* [15:02] Soft Linden: Have to run too
* [15:02] Office: Going: to office
* [15:02] Aimee Trescothick: waves
* [15:02] Feallight Hellershanks: ty rob and soft
* [15:02] Rob Linden: bye everyone!
Category:Open Source Meeting