Bug triage/2007-07-16/Transcript

[15:01]	Stevex Janus: 	I'm still rying yo catch up on eht 400+ emails from the list
[15:01]	Soft Linden: 	Ping!
[15:01]	otakup0pe Neumann: 	ICMP_ECHO_REPLY
[15:01]	Daedalus Young: 	hi Rob
[15:01]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	stop floating
[15:01]	Soft Linden: 	Hee
[15:01]	Stevex Janus: 	hi rob
[15:01]	Soft Linden: 	Yeah, the list gets a bit noisy on and off :>
[15:01]	Rob Linden: 	hi folks....y'all wanna try out my fancy new three prim meeting area down the hill?
[15:01]	Soft Linden: 	Sure :>
[15:02]	Soft Linden: 	Bring the bug box?
[15:02]	Stevex Janus: 	oku
[15:03]	Rob Linden: 	hopefully, we're close enough that people can still find us
[15:03]	otakup0pe Neumann: 	hard to miss the mass of green dots :o
[15:03]	Daedalus Young: 	follow the green dots
[15:03]	Soft Linden shouts: Dale, Saijanai, down the hill! 	Soft Linden shouts: Dale, Saijanai, down the hill!
[15:04]	Squirrel Wood: 	/ao off
[15:04]	Gigs Taggart: 	eek, wet
[15:04]	Squirrel Wood: 	/ao on
[15:04]	Dale Glass: 	interesting
[15:05]	Gigs Taggart looks for a copy of the multi-sit-target script :) 	Gigs Taggart looks for a copy of the multi-sit-target script :)
[15:05]	Soft Linden: 	What's that do - set a new target whenever someone sitss?
[15:06]	Rob Linden: 	yeah, I'm not exactly the builder with the skilz
[15:06]	Gigs Taggart: 	yep
[15:06]	Soft Linden: 	Nice!
[15:06]	Gigs Taggart: 	it was pretty ingenious :)
[15:06]	Gigs Taggart: 	I don't have a copy on me right now
[15:06]	Gigs Taggart: 	I'll have to drop one on rob later
[15:06]	Soft Linden shouts: Aric, Dzonatas - down the hill today! 	Soft Linden shouts: Aric, Dzonatas - down the hill today!
[15:06]	Squirrel Wood gave you AutoSizing Ring Seat 20+. 	Squirrel Wood gave you AutoSizing Ring Seat 20+.
[15:07]	Boroondas Gupte: 	I think it can be rezzed by MultiGadget
[15:07]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	lotsa lindens here today...
[15:07]	Squirrel Wood: 	Mmm. Lindens ^^
[15:07]	Soft Linden: 	Now we just need this to go floating down the river once triages start
[15:07]	Rob Linden: 	alright....let's get started
[15:07]	Rob Linden: 	
[15:08]	Rob Linden: 	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source_Meeting/Agenda
[15:08]	Daedalus Young: 	779 looks good to me
[15:08]	Dzonatas Sol tried to sit... 	Dzonatas Sol tried to sit...
[15:08]	Soft Linden: 	Looks good to me
[15:08]	Squirrel Wood: 	Isn't it http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Bug_triage/Agenda ?
[15:09]	Rob Linden: 	both should work
[15:09]	Soft Linden: 	Squirrel: Yep!
[15:09]	Daedalus Young: 	or even https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Bug_triage/Monday_Agenda
[15:09]	Rob Linden: 	(oh, whoops, you're right
[15:09]	Soft Linden: 	But it was a trick: Now you have to run it, Squirrel.
[15:09]	Squirrel Wood: 	the open sauce one shows me an empty list
[15:10]	Soft Linden: 	import?
[15:10]	otakup0pe Neumann: 	i can't notice a difference in the pictures, but go for it.
[15:10]	otakup0pe Neumann: 	oh. looks liek the text on the top is less crunched
[15:10]	Daedalus Young: 	Nicholaz' version is a bit cleaner
[15:11]	Soft Linden: 	Overrunning that background area, which can make it unreadable with some backgrounds
[15:11]	Rob Linden: 	yeah, ok. we should at least give Ben a heads up. it's debug stuff, so he'll be less concerned, but still
[15:11]	Rob Linden: 	...but I'll mark it for import
[15:11]	Rob Linden: 	next up:
[15:13]	Soft Linden: 	Looks low-priority, but a valid bug if it's right. Might import, but not assign yet
[15:13]	Dzonatas Sol: 	I haven't applied this patch, but I wonder if it conflicts with Dale's Mute Visibility.
[15:13]	Dale Glass: 	that's Able's, not mine
[15:13]	Dzonatas Sol: 	Able's.. my bad
[15:13]	Soft Linden: 	The patch is just for easily reproducing a bug, not for fixing it.
[15:14]	Squirrel Wood: 	depends on whether this is indeed a bug or intended behavior
[15:14]	Boroondas Gupte: 	is there any documentation on what is is supposed to do?
[15:14]	Dzonatas Sol: 	i see that now... "demonstrates".
[15:15]	Rob Linden: 	this hasn't been discussed on sldev yet, has it?
[15:15]	Soft Linden: 	I don't recall it
[15:16]	Soft Linden: 	If it was brought up, it wasn't with the JIRA in it. No hits in search.
[15:16]	Rob Linden: 	does anyone feel confident they know what the behavior should be here?
[15:17]	Aric Linden: 	Rob, if you'd like you can import this and assign it to me
[15:17]	Squirrel Wood: 	that's the point that needs clarification?
[15:17]	Aric Linden: 	I'll have someone on my team repro it and provide feedback on correct behavior
[15:17]	Soft Linden: 	At the very least, we should see if updateMutFlags is supposed to do something with that field. Yeah.
[15:18]	Rob Linden: 	ok...that sounds great, Aric, thanks!
[15:18]	Aric Linden: 	sure
[15:18]	Rob Linden: 	next up:
[15:18]	Daedalus Young: 	SL isn't the only realtime 3D app with the transparent problem
[15:18]	Squirrel Wood: 	824.. isn't that something that is caused by opengl limitations of some sort or another?
[15:19]	Daedalus Young: 	I'm sure I've seen it in Blender's Game Engine too
[15:19]	Daedalus Young: 	also see the linked issues there
[15:20]	Soft Linden: 	That kind of alpha sorting is an unsolved problem for poly-based engines. I'm sure that's duplicated internally...
[15:20]	Dzonatas Sol: 	I'm sure 824 is related to another jira entry... somewhere
[15:20]	Daedalus Young: 	
[15:20]	Rob Linden: 	we've discussed this general problem before
[15:20]	Daedalus Young: 	for example
[15:20]	Rob Linden: 	that's probably the one I'm thinking of
[15:20]	Soft Linden: 	I'll close it as a dupe of that
[15:21]	Squirrel Wood: 	I assume SL uses some form of z-buffer to render stuff... which should technically eliminate such z-order / alpha problems ?
[15:21]	Daedalus Young: 	you'll need to have objects subdivided by the renderer
[15:21]	Rob Linden: 	has anyone explained this general problem well, though?
[15:21]	Rob Linden: 	is still kinda hanging out there as a probelm, too
[15:21]	Daedalus Young: 	my comment on :
[15:21]	Daedalus Young: 	This happens because the Z-buffer (which you can see if you go to Snapshot > Capture > Depth) doesn't allow transparent texturing. You can make it work in a lot of situations, but it breaks when several objects are both behind -and- in front of eachother (like a ring around a pole, the ring is behind the pole, but the pole is behind the ring). As Thygrrr said, it requires geometry subdivisions, divide the ring in 2 pieces, one piece behind the pole and one piece in front of it.
[15:22]	Dzonatas Sol: 	I like that idea... subdivisions
[15:22]	Rob Linden: 	is the discussion I'm remembering, but it looks like they're all related
[15:22]	Soft Linden: 	But it gets even more complicated than that, when you have 3-4 objects overlapping, the number of subdivisions required is explosive.
[15:23]	Daedalus Young: 	yeah, I've linked some up yesterday
[15:23]	Rob Linden: 	ok, so resolved/duplicate?
[15:23]	Dzonatas Sol: 	yes.
[15:23]	Daedalus Young: 	there are many more issues concerning transparency
[15:23]	Squirrel Wood: 	it happens with objects that have different 3d positions inworld and aren't intersecting at all.
[15:23]	Dzonatas Sol: 	real-time ray-tracers have a way to subdivide fast
[15:23]	Boroondas Gupte: 	classic z-buffer trick only works for opaque objects, for transparent ones you would need a list/array/whatever of several z values per pixel which isn't performant anymore
[15:23]	Daedalus Young: 	also sorting in HUDs wrong
[15:23]	Daedalus Young: 	I believe it's basically all the same problem
[15:23]	Rob Linden: 	next up:
[15:24]	Gigs Taggart: 	HUD alpha is newly broken daedalus
[15:24]	Gigs Taggart: 	at least in terms of picking and certain rendering problems
[15:24]	Daedalus Young: 	ok gigs
[15:25]	Soft Linden: 	will likely become more of a problem with Vista as well. Memory needs to be sized based on available texture memory, not the whole of video memory.
[15:25]	Gigs Taggart: 	yeah
[15:25]	Soft Linden: 	Vista uses quite a bit more memory for UI compositing as well.
[15:25]	Gigs Taggart: 	same with linux and Beryl/etc
[15:25]	Dzonatas Sol: 	It has votes. Import without patch?
[15:25]	Gigs Taggart: 	3D desktop is only going to get more common
[15:25]	Squirrel Wood: 	If you run the transparent glass ui on vista it demands a 256mb gfx card methinks
[15:26]	Soft Linden: 	Yeah. Or I can make a note to ask for suggestions on how to choose the size on-list
[15:26]	Aric Linden: 	It coincides nicely with an internal uptick in vista diagnostics too
[15:26]	Gigs Taggart: 	yes import
[15:26]	Rob Linden: 	k...marked for import
[15:26]	Rob Linden: 	next
[15:27]	Squirrel Wood: 	seen that happen on one of me products
[15:27]	Squirrel Wood: 	quite annoying actually
[15:27]	Gigs Taggart: 	I haven't tried the repro but it looks detailed
[15:27]	Gigs Taggart: 	Looks good to me for import
[15:28]	Rob Linden: 	I'll import
[15:28]	Rob Linden: 	next
[15:28]	Rob Linden: 	
[15:28]	AusFox Walcott: 	Oh noes, its teh feds!
[15:28]	Gigs Taggart: 	747 is straightforward
[15:28]	AusFox Walcott hides contraband* <_< >_> 	AusFox Walcott hides contraband* <_< >_>
[15:28]	Gigs Taggart: 	a "misfeature" that was waiting to get enough votes to triage again
[15:28]	Rob Linden waits for to load 	Rob Linden waits for to load
[15:29]	Gigs Taggart: 	I almost made a patch for 747, I expect it to be one liner :)
[15:29]	Squirrel Wood: 	humm.. when uploading a 1022x510 texture, SL will size it down to 512x256 when it would be better of sizing it to 1024x512... not related but I think its worth mentioning ^^
[15:29]	Gigs Taggart: 	squirrl you might want to report that in Jira too :)
[15:30]	otakup0pe Neumann: 	heh
[15:30]	Soft Linden: 	The bigger problem is the number of builders using 1024 when 128 would do ;)
[15:31]	otakup0pe Neumann: 	True.
[15:31]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	There's a solution for that with sculpties at least
[15:31]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	allow lossless compression only for 128 or less
[15:31]	Squirrel Wood: 	I'd use 10240² if there was a need for it (high quality animation :p)
[15:31]	Soft Linden: 	Saijanai - that's brilliant
[15:31]	Gigs Taggart: 	1024 is useful for "whole object" maps
[15:32]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	not my idea. pretty much the concensus of everyone
[15:32]	Daedalus Young: 	texture atlases
[15:32]	Daedalus Young: 	make one object with different textures, but all textures mapped onto one large texture
[15:32]	Gigs Taggart: 	a 128 lossless is probably bigger than a 1024 compressed :)
[15:32]	Squirrel Wood: 	mipmaps... let people choose a maximum mipmap level to load in clients ?
[15:32]	Soft Linden: 	Even if not lossless, a higher quality level, enough to kill visible macroblock borders
[15:33]	Saijanai Kuhn hopes that Gigs is wrong... 	Saijanai Kuhn hopes that Gigs is wrong...
[15:33]	Gigs Taggart: 	hehe
[15:33]	Gigs Taggart: 	well I exaggerate
[15:33]	Gigs Taggart: 	to be honest I would love a lossless option
[15:33]	Soft Linden: 	But this one - import?
[15:33]	Gigs Taggart: 	yes 747 import
[15:33]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	64 with lossless is probably enouygh, from what Qarl says, but we shall see
[15:33]	Gigs Taggart: 	it was waiting for votes
[15:33]	Squirrel Wood: 	I'm all for it
[15:33]	Gigs Taggart: 	it has them now
[15:33]	Gigs Taggart: 	it's going to be like one line of code I bet
[15:34]	Rob Linden: 	ok...I'll import, though I'm still a little confused, to be honest
[15:34]	Gigs Taggart: 	right now upload previews constrain aspect ratio to the powers of two the actual texture is
[15:34]	Rob Linden: 	could someone maybe clear up the description a little bit?
[15:34]	Bridie Linden: 	yes, please
[15:34]	Gigs Taggart: 	ok I'll do it
[15:35]	Aric Linden: 	Thanks. I'm worried that we might be making things worse if we change this.
[15:35]	Aric Linden: 	A better description of what's expected will help avoid that
[15:35]	Rob Linden: 	I think it's worth a discussion from whoever made the change. can't promise a fix, thoguh
[15:36]	Dzonatas Sol: 	How about an extra L$5 for lossless?
[15:36]	Rob Linden: 	next up:
[15:36]	valebi Aabye: 	i m looking for a job
[15:36]	Gigs Taggart: 	I'd pay 500L for a 1024 lossless :)
[15:37]	Boroondas Gupte: 	lossless is to be considered when uploading, not when displaying
[15:37]	Saijanai Kuhn notes: aren;t we all 	Saijanai Kuhn notes: aren;t we all
[15:37]	Dzonatas Sol: 	blackened avatars on macs... dupe
[15:37]	Daedalus Young: 	yes, seen a dupe of it too
[15:37]	valebi Aabye: 	where is teleport?
[15:37]	Rob Linden: 	oh...yeah, it's linked to the dup, just not marked
[15:37]	Aric Linden: 	I think it would be nice to have a repro for 857
[15:37]	valebi Aabye: 	hi
[15:38]	Squirrel Wood: 	repro? Get a Mac? ^^
[15:38]	Daedalus Young: 	no, not that easy Squirrel
[15:38]	Soft Linden: 	Valebi: Try clicking 'search' at the bottom of the screen and finding a location to teleport to in there
[15:38]	Squirrel Wood: 	aww
[15:38]	Daedalus Young: 	I'm on a Mac and it doesn't always happen
[15:38]	Aric Linden: 	Same here Daedalus.
[15:38]	Daedalus Young: 	have seen it on other avatars though
[15:38]	Rob Linden: 	dup of
[15:38]	Daedalus Young: 	usually when I log into a busy area, a highly-prim-attached avatar turns up black
[15:39]	Rob Linden: 	next up:
[15:39]	Gigs Taggart: 	I have updated 747
[15:39]	Bridie Linden: 	thx Gigs
[15:39]	Soft Linden: 	ty Gigs :)
[15:39]	Rob Linden: 	ditto
[15:39]	Squirrel Wood: 	packet loss related "bug" ?
[15:39]	Daedalus Young: 	I think 400 is due to packet loss indeed
[15:40]	valebi Aabye: 	soy nueva
[15:40]	Gigs Taggart: 	oh I have news on that front
[15:40]	Gigs Taggart: 	I have installed the latest ubuntu beta which has the traffic shaping module I need to do full latency and packet loss testing
[15:40]	Dzonatas Sol: 	sounds like packet loss
[15:40]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	valebi try going to the second life library and asking for help from the librarians
[15:40]	Gigs Taggart: 	that was holding me up previously
[15:40]	valebi Aabye: 	i need telepot
[15:41]	Gigs Taggart: 	I will be hopefully trying to repro most latency and packet loss related bugs real soon now and posting how to do so to the sldev list :)
[15:41]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	use that to teleplort to the library
[15:41]	Bridie Linden: 	/ valeba, you can use the Map to find a location and teleport there.
[15:41]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	there are often people there to help you
[15:41]	Bridie Linden: 	/ velebi, sorry
[15:41]	valebi Aabye: 	i must push teleport
[15:42]	Dzonatas Sol: 	yes
[15:42]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	5-10 people there ATM she should be fine
[15:43]	Rob Linden: 	it doesn't look ats though there's a reliable repro for this, short of what Gigs is talking about
[15:43]	Dzonatas Sol: 	resolve/no repro =/
[15:44]	Gigs Taggart: 	well it's pretty straightforward I think, the client "moves" the prim visually but the server is authoritative in the end
[15:44]	Dzonatas Sol: 	or need more info.. for network info
[15:44]	Squirrel Wood: 	yep. poster needs to provide packet loss detail info for cases when it "happens"
[15:44]	Gigs Taggart: 	hopefully that command will move to TCP :)
[15:45]	Rob Linden: 	k...will resolve/cannot repro for now
[15:45]	Aric Linden: 	for 1043 please import it and assign it to me
[15:45]	Rob Linden: 	next up: which sounds like we've got a resolution for
[15:45]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	talk about synchornicity. Someone in teh scripters group just described a situation where they could stretch a build to cover 1/2 a sim without unlinking
[15:46]	Dzonatas Sol: 	close.. old
[15:46]	Rob Linden: 	thx aric
[15:46]	Dzonatas Sol: 	not 1043... but next
[15:46]	Dzonatas Sol: 	63
[15:46]	Rob Linden: 	
[15:46]	Squirrel Wood: 	Sai... build it small scale, link, then scale it up
[15:47]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	ah, well, new to me...
[15:47]	Dzonatas Sol: 	63 has been fixed
[15:47]	Dzonatas Sol: 	i makred is reolved/fixed
[15:48]	Dzonatas Sol: 	*it as
[15:48]	Soft Linden: 	I'd be curious to see the shop though. It sure sounds like it could even just be someone with two objects in the same location. Or too close for decisive Z-ordering.
[15:48]	Rob Linden: 	when was it fixed?
[15:48]	Gigs Taggart: 	soft I remember talking with someone about this bug and they said it wasn't z-ordering
[15:48]	Gigs Taggart: 	soft it almost sounds like video ram corruption
[15:48]	Dzonatas Sol: 	This was a bug up until the 1.13 and 1.14
[15:49]	Dzonatas Sol: 	I used to get it also
[15:49]	Dzonatas Sol: 	it doesn't happen anymore
[15:49]	Rob Linden: 	ok...good enough
[15:49]	Rob Linden: 	next up:
[15:49]	Aric Linden: 	I'd be curious to know if this is still an issue
[15:50]	Gigs Taggart: 	yeah, he would know if it was hehe
[15:50]	Aric Linden: 	could we ask him?
[15:50]	Gigs Taggart: 	he's surely the largest user of XML-RPC in the world
[15:50]	Aric Linden: 	really?
[15:50]	Rob Linden: 	which issue are we talking about? ?
[15:50]	Gigs Taggart: 	I would think so, all those thousands of SLX boxes
[15:50]	Aric Linden: 	yes, the xml-rpc issue
[15:51]	Dzonatas Sol: 	there was a dns issue with xml-rpc... that may be fixed now
[15:51]	Aric Linden: 	it's hard for us to test xml-rpc timing issues internally
[15:52]	Gigs Taggart: 	I think Kelly said xml-rpc is a bottleneck system where it all goes through a single server and that was causing trouble.
[15:52]	Squirrel Wood: 	mayhaps it'd be a good idea to set up a bunch of xmlrpc boxes in different sims and have them monitor "round trip" times of sorts?
[15:52]	Gigs Taggart: 	I don't know if that is still the case.
[15:52]	Aric Linden: 	If it's still a problem, I'd love to know about it and work with him to repro it and analyze the specifics
[15:52]	Gigs Taggart: 	yeah he'd be the guy to go to, I'm sure he gets emails every time the system slows down :)
[15:53]	Aric Linden: 	Rob, can I propose that we ask Nynthan if he's still seeing problems and if so, put him in touch with me?
[15:53]	Saijanai Kuhn wonders if there is a debug assistance kit for landowners and lindens. wander into a sim and click option #3 in the HUD...	Saijanai Kuhn wonders if there is a debug assistance kit for landowners and lindens. wander into a sim and click option #3 in the HUD...
[15:53]	Squirrel Wood: 	Where's my moose.. err.. money? ^^
[15:53]	Gigs Taggart: 	noo I mean Apotheus
[15:54]	Aric Linden: 	Ahh. thanks Gigs. Apotheus it is. Rob, is that ok with you?
[15:54]	Rob Linden: 	that's fine
[15:54]	Boroondas Gupte: 	is linked to an issue that can't be viewed by public ()
[15:55]	Rob Linden: 	yeah, I'm not sure what's up with that.
[15:55]	Boroondas Gupte: 	I saw that with another issue that's been mooved to the security project, or something
[15:56]	Rob Linden: 	next up
[15:56]	Rob Linden: 	(for what it's worth, it says I don't have perms to see , which is really weird)
[15:56]	Daedalus Young: 	description is a bit unclear, but apparently with very large builds, "edit linked parts" and editing a prim unlinks it
[15:56]	Gigs Taggart: 	I saw a recent complaint about from Lewis Nerd on SLDEV group.
[15:56]	Gigs Taggart: 	spontaneous unlinking
[15:57]	Saijanai Kuhn cues Twilight Zone music 	Saijanai Kuhn cues Twilight Zone music
[15:57]	Squirrel Wood: 	I have not had that happen to me as of yet
[15:57]	Gigs Taggart: 	it is a little hard to repro, might be packet loss related again
[15:57]	Gigs Taggart: 	Isn't Lewis in UK?
[15:57]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	might be related to the wandering child prims thing
[15:57]	Gigs Taggart: 	high latency/packet loss might be a trigger for this
[15:58]	Daedalus Young: 	I don't knw how edit linked parts works internally, if that unlinks and relinks a linkset, it could be related to packet loss
[15:58]	Dzonatas Sol: 	linksets usually move as one vector
[15:59]	Dzonatas Sol: 	so packet loss is doubted
[15:59]	Rob Linden: 	hrm...ok. what's the next step?
[15:59]	Gigs Taggart: 	I don't know at this point.
[15:59]	Daedalus Young: 	trying to get a solid repro? :S
[15:59]	Aric Linden: 	I'd suggest either a solid repro
[15:59]	Rob Linden: 	do we need some way of marking issues as possible packet loss related?
[15:59]	Gigs Taggart: 	Meta-issue for potentially latency/packet loss related bugs seems called for.
[15:59]	Gigs Taggart: 	yes
[15:59]	Dzonatas Sol: 	IM Lestat
[16:00]	Gigs Taggart: 	it would make testing easier once I develop some test scenarios for high latency/packet loss
[16:00]	Dzonatas Sol: 	OK... I'll IM Lestat and post the reply to the jira
[16:01]	Rob Linden: 	k....looks like we're out of time
[16:01]	Daedalus Young: 	aww, already
[16:01]	Squirrel Wood: 	That was a quite productive hour again ^^
[16:01]	Rob Linden: 	thanks everyone for showing up!
[16:01]	Soft Linden: 	Thanks all :)
[16:02]	Squirrel Wood: 	Thanks for listening to our opinions and suggestions ^^
[16:02]	Dzonatas Sol: 	thank you for your time 'all
[16:02]	Daedalus Young: 	Lindens thanks for letting us help :)
[16:02]	Squirrel Wood: 	/ao on
[16:02]	Soft Linden: 	Who's meeping?
[16:02]	Daedalus Young: 	not me
[16:02]	Bridie Linden: 	bye !
[16:03]	Daedalus Young: 	bye
Category:Bug triage