User Experience Interest Group/Transcripts/2009-06-04

== Topic & Summary ==
User Experience Interest Group Discussion for June 04, 2009.
Topic: Future Topic Brainstorming.
We brainstormed topics for future UXIG meetings:
* Making the viewer more stable against griefer attacks e.g. excessive script dialogs crashing the viewer.
* Misc. featurette (small feature) ideas.
* SL <--> OpenSim and OpenSim <--> OpenSim grid interoperability issues and possible improvements.
* Improving the Build/Edit floater and tools.
* Viewer "modes" (e.g. exploring, building, scripting) that affect the interface of the viewer.
* Customizable toolbars and menus, choose actions from a "palette".
* Improving the pie menu layout and structure to be better and more internally consistent.
* Keyboard shortcuts that should be added or removed.
* Useful Advanced menu items that should be promoted to better locations in the viewer.
These have been added to the Topics page. We will discuss them in further detail at future meetings.
== Transcript ==
[15:16]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Alrighty. Today I want to torture you all until you cough up at least 5 topic ideas for future meetings. >:) 	
[15:16]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Featurettes! 	
[15:17]	Jacek Antonelli: 	What sort of featurettes? 	
[15:17]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Like ● instead of * in the password box. 	
[15:17]	Charlette Proto: 	1 throttling of IMs, dialogs etc to avoid griefing based on this form of DOS attack 	
[15:18]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Charlette: conventionally you take the textures from your wearables and combine them into a baked texture and send it up to sim. You don't have to though. If you modify the viewer code to do it, you can make or load any "baked" texture you like and send that, without any reference to your wearables at all. The sim will happily distribute whatever you send up to everyone in the vicinity. 	
[15:18]	Charlette Proto: 	there is a new thing out there PNs use of furries, it just fries the client with dialog boxes 	
[15:18]	Charlette Proto: 	thanks Morg 	
[15:18]	Tegg Bode: 	PN's still exist? ㋡ 	
[15:19]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I always wanted to code that. Anyway, we could talk about what little feature you want to add into the viewer. 	
[15:19]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Or, we could do Imprudence testing sprints! 	
[15:19]	Charlette Proto: 	ah like I thought not a user option but a possibility for alternative approach in the viewer 	
[15:20]	McCabe Maxsted: 	testing sprints? 	
[15:20]	Charlette Proto: 	well the PNs are not quite the same but the website still has griefing scripts and some are nusteier than ever] 	
[15:20]	Geneko Nemeth: 	... 	
[15:21]	Geneko Nemeth: 	yeah, one hour isn't gonna get anything like that done... 	
[15:21]	Tegg Bode: 	I'd like all the pie menu options between objects and residents to be in the same places as much as possible, so we can find stuff, add more segments and a bigger pie if necessary and maybe A big round button in the middle that did something important and spare spaces for stuff we haven't thought of yet 	
[15:22]	Charlette Proto: 	the blue dialog can just fry the viewer when the connection is better than the clientside graphics 	
[15:22]	Charlette Proto: 	the pie has gone through some nasty flips recently Tegg, sjame they didn't do the thinkig ahead of the changes 	
[15:23]	Geneko Nemeth: 	But I mean perhaps we should start discussing some real designs and code, and not just random chatter. This isn't say random chatter is bad, though. 	
[15:23]	McCabe Maxsted: 	a design contest woud be kinda fun 	
[15:23]	Geneko Nemeth have to admit that he doesn't have anything except random chatter to talk about... 	Geneko Nemeth have to admit that he doesn't have anything except random chatter to talk about... 	
[15:24]	Charlette Proto: 	random brain explosions are kewl when the gray matter is feeling challenged(8 am here and I slept 3 hours since tueasday) 	
[15:24]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Ouch, Charlette 	
[15:25]	Garn Conover: 	>.< 	
[15:25]	Charlette Proto: 	my random titbit could have some real code aspects eg a user preference to throttle incoming dialogs and notices 	
[15:26]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yep, that's a good idea Charlette 	
[15:26]	Charlette Proto: 	yep I don't feel 100% and got sniffles on top of it 	
[15:26]	Tegg Bode: 	Get more slep, and don't spend too much time at the computer, too much time at computer is one of the reasons I have ccontracted Gaucoma, and lost 20% vision in one eye forever, some studies say more than 8 hours increases the risk heaps 	
[15:26]	Charlette Proto: 	the Emerald attempts to throttle but it doesn't work for some reason 	
[15:26]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek: I can only think of a couple of future topics atm. (i) Improving the user experience for SL-Opensim or Opensim-Opensim interop --- how? And (ii) [This one would alienate non-programmers] Introduction to the LL viewer code, basic rundown. 	
[15:27]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hrm, okay 	
[15:27]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	I've read a comment sujesting that the graphics devolopers have a class running down the graphics engine of the SL viewer code. This may help attract some graphics devolpers to the open source comminity. 	
[15:28]	Charlette Proto: 	Tegg you may be right, my vision had been perfect once but no more 	
[15:29]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Charlette, go to bed, or blue kittie is gonna frown on you 	
[15:29]	Morgaine Dinova: 	:-) 	
[15:29]	Charlette Proto: 	Techwolf who are the people you are refering too? 	
[15:30]	Charlette Proto: 	not now Morgaine (cuddles the angry kitten) 	
[15:30]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Awww :-) 	
[15:31]	Tegg Bode: 	I hope you've sen an eye doc then, I have to put 3 different drops in both eyes every morning and night to stop it progressing for the rest of my life, there's no glasses or surgury to fix it, eye nerves are like spinal nerves they don't regenerate. My left eye is like in fog all the time, I can barely drive at night in the rain. 	
[15:31]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Ouch Tegg :-( 	
[15:31]	Charlette Proto: 	eep don't scare me 	
[15:32]	Tegg Bode: 	It's scary, get it checked 	
[15:32]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	charrette, this was a discussion about how to get some graphics or encourage exiting to work on the graphics engine of the open source SL code. Right now, I think threre is none other then employed at LL> 	
[15:35]	Tegg Bode: 	Hm I've crashed? 	
[15:35]	McCabe Maxsted: 	yes you have 	
[15:35]	McCabe Maxsted: 	we're talking to you from beyoooooond 	
[15:35]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Can't hear you Tegg 	
[15:35]	Tegg Bode: 	Ah at least someone else has crashed with me then for a change ㋡ 	
[15:35]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehe 	
[15:36]	Garn Conover: 	ive had that happen once 	
[15:36]	Charlette Proto: 	I suppose the OpenGL offers a lot of opportunity for contribution from education circles 	
[15:36]	Tegg Bode: 	Maybe I'm faceplanted on the keyboard and dreaming, I'll just see if the light switch works ㋡ 	
[15:36]	Morgaine Dinova: 	How many here are using or visiting any Opensim grid or world(s) at all, even if only once in a blue moon? 	
[15:36]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hehe 	
[15:36]	Garn Conover: 	we were @ a party and the sim died biut 5 or 6 of us were talkin on voice for like 30 min before we realized what happened 	
[15:37]	McCabe Maxsted: 	I proy spend more time in opensim than I do in SL, morgaine 	
[15:37]	Garn Conover: 	never been there 	
[15:37]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Oh, didn't know that McCabe, cool 	
[15:37]	Charlette Proto: 	I have a Charlette account on OSGrid, but there is hardly ever more than 20 people there 	
[15:37]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I use my own local OpenSim for testing sometimes 	
[15:38]	Charlette Proto: 	managed to make one friend on OSGrid but we only met 3 times 	
[15:38]	Tegg Bode: 	Open grid never had any people when I was there and it was really laggy. 	
[15:39]	Jacek Antonelli: 	But I haven't used "public" OpenSim grids much. I tried OpenLife Grid once before they decided to take their name to a new level of irony. 	
[15:39]	Charlette Proto: 	yeah the lag is horrid on OSGrid 	
[15:39]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I asked to get an idea of how many people would gain from UX features that help in Opensim 	
[15:39]	Garn Conover rolls into the water and gets himself clean 	Garn Conover rolls into the water and gets himself clean 	
[15:39]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hehe 	
[15:39]	McCabe Maxsted: 	is there a list out there of what features opensim offers that the SL™ grid doesn't? 	
[15:39]	Tegg Bode: 	The worrying thing is the lagg is that badd without heaps of scripts running on fully loaded sims without 40 avatars of bling 	
[15:40]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, we need more topics. So far I have: 1) Making the viewer more resistant to griefer attacks (like too many dialogs crashing it), 2) improving interoperability with other grids, 3) talk about featurettes, 4) added by me -- keyboard shortcuts that should be added or removed, 5) also by me -- items in the advanced menu that are useful and should be moved somewhere better, or are useless and should be removed	
[15:41]	Tegg Bode: 	What no pie? 	
[15:41]	Tegg Bode: 	㋡ 	
[15:41]	Charlette Proto: 	private OpenSims offer intellectual property control and privacy when collaborating commercially, but you do look like Ruth while doing it 	
[15:41]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Well, it is called the "debug" menu... 	
[15:41]	McCabe Maxsted: 	6. making the pie menu more awesome 	
[15:41]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Oh, right, pie menu 	
[15:41]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Mmmmm pie. Pie pie pie pie pie pie pie. Pie! 	
[15:41]	Geneko Nemeth needs to get a sensor bar for slapping people every time they say "intellectual property". 	Geneko Nemeth needs to get a sensor bar for slapping people every time they say "intellectual property". 	
[15:42]	Jacek Antonelli: 	heh 	
[15:42]	Tegg Bode: 	Awsome, Chuck Norrise awsome would be good, but I'll settle for Bear Calvary Awsome ㋡ 	
[15:42]	Charlette Proto: 	I agree on the Advanced menu Jacek - the items shoulf be distributed where they belong 	
[15:42]	Morgaine Dinova: 	McCabe, not as such, don't think. It's got OpenID OP and RP login which SL doesn't, and it talks MXP for interop, and it can load/save whole regions from a file. 	
[15:43]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hmm, I was thinking more of what parts of the UI could change to make it easier. I know there's logging into grids, but other than that, once you get there, is there anything an opensim grid viewer really needs? 	
[15:43]	Charlette Proto: 	what about the Edit floater (the removal of MORE/LESS) pissed of some people, but other things could improve the practicality there 	
[15:43]	McCabe Maxsted: 	they removed more/less? 	
[15:44]	Charlette Proto: 	yup, weird 	
[15:44]	Morgaine Dinova: 	McCabe: good question 	
[15:44]	Charlette Proto: 	it is always in MORE mode 	
[15:44]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I wonder where they got the idea to remove More/Less. 	
[15:44]	Geneko Nemeth: 	The Advanced menu used to be called "debug" because it had, a lot of debugging features. Not all of them are useful or obvious to non-developers. (I still haven't figured out what Render>Info Displays>Composition is for.) 	
[15:45]	Geneko Nemeth: 	They probably felt that nobody used it in "less"... makes sense. 	
[15:45]	Charlette Proto: 	I used the LESS mode sometimes when getting dressed 	
[15:45]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Right, Geneko. But there has been stuff that's useful in general, like Rebake and Disable Camera Constraints 	
[15:45]	Charlette Proto: 	I feel that a lot could be improved in the edit floater 	
[15:46]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, that's a good topic 	
[15:46]	McCabe Maxsted likes that topic :) 	McCabe Maxsted likes that topic :) 	
[15:47]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Yeah, the edit floater could use some make over, along with editing in general. 	
[15:47]	Charlette Proto: 	especially if one was to introduce some 'macro' building methods eg transformations, alignment options, the Edit could make a good topic 	
[15:47]	Jacek Antonelli: 	What other sort of things about editing, Geneko? 	
[15:47]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Keyboard shortcuts... and pie. 	
[15:48]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I always wanted to cut my torus from a pie menu 	
[15:48]	Charlette Proto: 	what do you think of transforms and multiple object operations like distribute and align 	
[15:48]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Needed. Badly needed. 	
[15:48]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yes. WANT. 	
[15:49]	Tegg Bode: 	I'd like to see link/unlink in the pie menu ㋡ 	
[15:49]	Geneko Nemeth: 	It wouldn't be easy to design, though, since you're doing it in three dimensions... 	
[15:49]	Charlette Proto: 	tegg I'd like the whole lot of context related attributes in the pie menu 	
[15:50]	Charlette Proto: 	drill down to everything one can do in the interface 	
[15:50]	Tegg Bode: 	It's nearly like we ned a content creation mode option for more advanced users 	
[15:51]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hmm..... now there's a thought 	
[15:51]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Now *there's* a topic. Content Creation Mode. 	
[15:51]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Or, rather, different viewer modes 	
[15:51]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Editing is already modal. So is camera. 	
[15:51]	Geneko Nemeth: 	So yeah it' 	
[15:52]	Geneko Nemeth: 	... I'm not sure what I'm saying. ^^ 	
[15:52]	Charlette Proto: 	one way to think of it Tegg is the Maya approach - everything in the given context included in the pie menu 	
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehe 	
[15:52]	Tegg Bode: 	Yep where you can get pie menus etc related to what builders, scripters, animators, etc need 	
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah 	
[15:53]	Charlette Proto: 	agrees, UI for creation VS play/minor edits 	
[15:53]	Tegg Bode: 	But have the simple stuff at top for noobs and social users 	
[15:53]	Charlette Proto: 	I do tweak and edit while chatting 	
[15:53]	Charlette Proto: 	well not while in UXIG meetings but in general 	
[15:54]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe Creation/Chatting/Mixed modes 	
[15:54]	Charlette Proto: 	this brings us back to custom user UI skin creation 	
[15:55]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I think it would be interesting if people could share their customizations. But somehow, that reminds me of EMACS. 	
[15:55]	Charlette Proto: 	eg inworld building VS clothes VS HUD design tasks 	
[15:55]	Tegg Bode: 	Yes I do use chat window etc, to remove it would make you deaf, but my avatar doesn't move, just camera, and more interested in all the building options quickly than stuff like minimap or add friend/group invite options 	
[15:55]	Charlette Proto: 	true Geneko 	
[15:56]	Charlette Proto: 	but I see an opportunity for various UI skins made by advanced users being distributed 	
[15:56]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Advanced? Natch. Just give a button palette and have everybody arrange it in their liking. 	
[15:57]	Charlette Proto: 	mine would have a crockodile texture - hehe kidding 	
[15:57]	Geneko Nemeth: 	(Easier said than done, heh.) 	
[15:57]	Tegg Bode: 	Like if I am doing building armour OI miht be using a run animaion and turning slow motion animations on and off to check the joints look good 	
[15:58]	Charlette Proto: 	the popularity of alternate viewers emerging all the time proves that many users like to experiment with the UI options and features 	
[15:58]	Tegg Bode: 	Maybe you could have a little tool bar for texturing with 5 preset colour/texture options on it? 	
[15:58]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	back from crash...lost chat history. 	
[15:58]	Charlette Proto: 	gosh the joints look horrid 	
[15:59]	McCabe Maxsted: 	wb 	
[15:59]	Charlette Proto: 	I see some users crashing with the 1.23 and others like me havent crashed since it came out 	
[16:00]	Tegg Bode: 	yeah I'm trying to make space armour with concertena joints, got the ankle and knees looking good but the hip joint has me stuffed at the moment 	
[16:00]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	I went to full screen on a dual monitor by mistake. Client tossed cokies on that. 	
[16:00]	Charlette Proto: 	I still feel the customisable TOOLBAR approach like in MS Office would be best 	
[16:02]	Charlette Proto: 	put everything into UI preferences as tickbox options for inclusion in the toolbar 	
[16:02]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Whee, million tickboxes. xD 	
[16:02]	Geneko Nemeth: 	A palette would be a better UI for this job. 	
[16:02]	McCabe Maxsted: 	heh that's about what office does 	
[16:02]	McCabe Maxsted: 	that's doable, though *ponders making "get nekkid" checkbox* 	
[16:02]	Geneko Nemeth: 	It's not a bad idea, but MSO has gave up this apporach. 	
[16:03]	Charlette Proto: 	yes McCabe but is there a better way to make skins 	
[16:03]	Geneko Nemeth: 	What about like Firefox? 	
[16:03]	Geneko Nemeth: 	(If I didn't make clear what I mean by "palette"...) 	
[16:03]	Jacek Antonelli: 	A palette would be okay, but it would be a big palette 	
[16:03]	Geneko Nemeth: 	You can group it by functionality then. 	
[16:03]	Charlette Proto: 	yeah the firefox is a good example 	
[16:04]	Jacek Antonelli: 	My thought is to make it so that anything in the menus could be dragged-and-dropped onto the toolbar to add a button for it 	
[16:04]	Jacek Antonelli: 	So the menu would act a bit like a palette. 	
[16:04]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Maybe there should be a palette as the central "source" though, and you can drag stuff into the menus too? o_O 	
[16:04]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Yeah. 	
[16:05]	McCabe Maxsted: 	I'd imagine you'd have to have one 	
[16:05]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Or even drag menus into floaters. The madness! 	
[16:05]	McCabe Maxsted: 	how ese do you get stuff out of menus and back again 	
[16:05]	Charlette Proto: 	hierarchies are not quite right in the current UI but would help to make the UI preferences not as bad as the Debug Settings 	
[16:05]	Jacek Antonelli: 	McCabe: I was thinking the stuff would always be in the menu, and dragging to the toolbar would "copy" it 	
[16:06]	Charlette Proto: 	dragging is a messy approach, collapsable outlines are neater 	
[16:06]	Jacek Antonelli: 	A customizable menu is a curious thought. 	
[16:06]	McCabe Maxsted: 	ah. See, I would want to trim the fat off my menus :) 	
[16:06]	Charlette Proto: 	that would work I suppose Jacek 	
[16:07]	McCabe Maxsted: 	or maybe move stuff from advanced back and forth... hmm... what about debug settings? 	
[16:07]	Charlette Proto: 	especially for the ease of casual users' mods 	
[16:07]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Advanced should be uneditable. 	
[16:07]	Tegg Bode: 	Yeah I prefer you not move or take stuff out of the menu, done that before and lost things on some programs ㋡ 	
[16:07]	Geneko Nemeth: 	You may copy stuff out, but not put anything in. 	
[16:08]	Charlette Proto: 	I fiddled with the XML for Imprudence, but it was so tedious I gave up 	
[16:08]	Charlette Proto: 	a direct way to organise it would go a lot further 	
[16:09]	Tegg Bode: 	I'd like to see a Shadows on/off option somewhere for people who aren't debug menu savvy, I can never remember the codes to use ㋡ 	
[16:09]	Charlette Proto: 	Audacity has some neat ways to fiddle with the toolbar 	
[16:10]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Shadows is still alpha, though. 	
[16:10]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hey cool, are you implementing my Zbrush-like idea, of dragging common commands and buttons and folders etc to the frame? :-) 	
[16:10]	McCabe Maxsted was kinda thinking it wouldn't be that hard to create new menu options using control names through a wizard or something	McCabe Maxsted was kinda thinking it wouldn't be that hard to create new menu options using control names through a wizard or something 	
[16:10]	Geneko Nemeth: 	It's very neat, but it's also ~slow~. 	
[16:10]	Charlette Proto: 	yeah Shadows don't work on most systems even when the occlusion is available in the video card 	
[16:11]	McCabe Maxsted: 	but I'm weird like that :) 	
[16:11]	Morgaine Dinova: 	McCabe: noted 	
[16:11]	Morgaine Dinova: 	:P 	
[16:11]	McCabe Maxsted: 	haha 	
[16:12]	Tegg Bode: 	Yeah have to have an 600 or 800 series Nvidia to get it to work preferably 8000 or 9000 series 	
[16:12]	Charlette Proto: 	McCabe you are both wired and weird this way 	
[16:12]	McCabe Maxsted: 	it could be useful for other things though. Like say creating building macros into a menu item 	
[16:13]	Jacek Antonelli: 	When you step back and look at it, the menus and the toolbars have a lot in common about how they do actions. That is, they both have toggle items and command items. 	
[16:13]	Charlette Proto: 	my card has the occlusion in the new driver (and OpenGL 3) but I can't get shadows to work in Second Life™ 	
[16:13]	Jacek Antonelli: 	And many of the controls used by the toolbar are the exact same ones used by the menu 	
[16:14]	Charlette Proto: 	agrees with Jacek 	
[16:14]	Jacek Antonelli: 	So, it seems to me there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to make a toolbar button for any menu item. In theory. 	
[16:14]	Geneko Nemeth: 	There's no command items on the toolbar. 	
[16:14]	McCabe Maxsted: 	yarr 	
[16:14]	Geneko Nemeth: 	The main toolbar, anyway. 	
[16:14]	Charlette Proto: 	toolbar should be just a digest of the menu opions one uses 	
[16:14]	Geneko Nemeth: 	So, maybe we should rename it the togglebar. 	
[16:15]	McCabe Maxsted: 	okay. I need to go get my weird butt into the shower 	
[16:15]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Bye, weird McCabe 	
[16:15]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehe 	
[16:15]	McCabe Maxsted salutes with his foot 	McCabe Maxsted salutes with his foot 	
[16:15]	McCabe Maxsted: 	see ya'll later :) 	
[16:15]	Tegg Bode: 	bye 	
[16:15]	Morgaine Dinova: 	See ya McCabe :-) 	
[16:15]	Charlette Proto: 	that is a thought Jacek, a toggle in the UI revealing chackboxes on the current menu for inclusion in the toolbar 	
[16:16]	Charlette Proto: 	tick what you like and then drag around the toolbar as needed 	
[16:17]	Charlette Proto: 	this would be more acessible than a separate UI options hierarchy of tickboxes 	
[16:17]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	they have to seperate the menu/tool bar from the current code and use callbacks so customizing can be done without lagging the client. 	
[16:18]	Morgaine Dinova: 	There are no right-click actions on menu items. That's a whole country remaining to be explored :-) 	
[16:18]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Techwolf: The menu and toolbar are already very callback-oriented, no? 	
[16:18]	Charlette Proto: 	am i overlooking something in that approach 	
[16:18]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Well, the normal behaviour of right-clicking in menus is the same as a left-click... 	
[16:18]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Yes, the menus all use callbacks. 	
[16:19]	Charlette Proto: 	there you go rightclick menu items to include in the toolbar 	
[16:19]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Geneko: not here, on Linux. Right-click does nothing at all on any menu entry 	
[16:19]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Geneko: menu, not pie menu 	
[16:20]	Geneko Nemeth: 	But moving stuff around is still not possible now, since the text isn't associated with the functionality but the menu item. It gets harder when yo uthink of internationalization issues. 	
[16:21]	Charlette Proto: 	damn languages, can't people cyber in english 	
[16:21]	Tegg Bode: 	Might be good for some stuff like Link (left click)/ Unlink (right click), Lock/Unlock perhaps, but it gets tricky usually best used for things with 3 states 	
[16:21]	Jacek Antonelli: 	True, Geneko. There'd need to be a generic "action" concept, which would store the name, action, and other parameters, and could be used in the menu, toolbar, or elsewhere 	
[16:21]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I'm Chinese, you insensitive clod! 	
[16:22]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hrm. Firefox on Linux lets me right click on bookmarks in the bookmark menu to get a content menu with stuff like "Delete", "Properties", "Open in new window", etc. 	
[16:22]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe geneko, i actually like interacting with my polish friends myself 	
[16:22]	Jacek Antonelli: 	So the idea of a context menu for menus isn't entirely unheard-of 	
[16:23]	Jacek Antonelli wonders if context menus should also have their own context menus... and so on.... muahahaha! 	Jacek Antonelli wonders if context menus should also have their own context menus... and so on.... muahahaha! 	
[16:23]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Right-clicking a menu item could bring up a submenu (just like on inventory items): 1) Execute; 2) Copy Command to Toolbar; 3) Copy Command to Menubar; 4) Edit Hotkey. :-) 	
[16:23]	Charlette Proto: 	yeah I like the idea of contextual menu editing "Include In Toolbar" etc 	
[16:24]	Charlette Proto: 	very neat for powerusers 	
[16:24]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Oh, hotkey / shortcut is another thing that needs to be associated with generic actions, not just menu items. In our hypothetical unified action model. 	
[16:24]	Charlette Proto: 	sooo much better than a separate hierarchy in UI Options 	
[16:26]	Charlette Proto: 	current toolbar has to go, but could the XML for that be simply saved by the viewer directly 	
[16:26]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Think of the translators! ... oh wait, we could go for the gettext route. 	
[16:26]	Geneko Nemeth: 	.... natch. Linden Lab ain 	
[16:26]	Geneko Nemeth: 	ain't going to link a GPL library into the viewer... 	
[16:27]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehe 	
[16:27]	Charlette Proto: 	Imprudence could do it since it is all XML 	
[16:28]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Geneko, maybe sometime you could lead a discussion about the translation tools, and how they could be better? 	
[16:29]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I...um... am not qualified to talk on this topic. (And if you talk it here nobody gets to hear it anyway.) 	
[16:29]	Charlette Proto: 	eep 	
[16:29]	Jacek Antonelli: 	No? Aww, alright. 	
[16:30]	Geneko Nemeth: 	They've been holding translator office hours at Tenera, 1pm Tuedsays. 	
[16:30]	Charlette Proto: 	but it would be a good exercise in getting some ideas out Geneko 	
[16:30]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I guess before hacking hotkeys though, the whole issue of input remapping needs to be thought about properly. For a start, one needs to be able to "Reload Default Shortcuts" or something like that (or else SL helpers will go nuts). And after making a change in hotkeys, you need to be able to save the mappings as a named set, and be able to reload the chosen set. 	
[16:31]	Geneko Nemeth: 	But currently you have to rely on Linden Lab to do the choosing and patching for you. They don't seem to get the idea that sometimes existing translations need improvement. 	
[16:31]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Meanwhile I did my translation work with PHP, gedit and diff... 	
[16:32]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Geneko: I meant more about the work involved in creating / improving the translations. Which files you edit, how you edit them, how the viewer loads them, etc. And how that process could be easier. 	
[16:32]	Charlette Proto: 	this whole idea of Open Source and LL gets very messy without even trying 	
[16:32]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Mm... would joystick support be tied in with actions? 	
[16:33]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Basically, Danica Linden sends you a big XML file with untranslated strings (without much context) and you translate them. There's no improving the translations in the current workflow. 	
[16:33]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Geneko: all input devices, anything that can generate a device input event. Rememeber, there are devices for accessibility too, very important. 	
[16:33]	Charlette Proto: 	I'd love to see more possibilities in using Joysticks eg WiiRemote etc 	
[16:33]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I'm not sure what you can do with the accelometers... 	
[16:34]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Geneko: Okay, that's for the official translations.... ;) 	
[16:34]	Geneko Nemeth: 	... yeah, so you can see why I never submitted anything under that workflow. 	
[16:34]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehe 	
[16:34]	Charlette Proto: 	I've used Wii Remote in some great projects, but working with Second Life™ it had some huge limitations having to go back to the keyboard 	
[16:34]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Whips in Gor ..... 	
[16:35]	Jacek Antonelli: 	So, what I want to know is what would be a better translation workflow, that, say *cough* Imprudence could use.... >_> 	
[16:35]	Charlette Proto: 	not quite Morgaine, mostly gesture based selections and general control of menus like the pie 	
[16:35]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I... don't know. Before this one, they had to submit patches like coders. 	
[16:36]	Jacek Antonelli: 	And I'd say you're the one most familiar here with the issues faced by translators. But, anyway, I don't want to pressure you into talking about it if you'd rather not 	
[16:36]	Geneko Nemeth: 	There have also been experiments of using gettext-based workflow... 	
[16:36]	Charlette Proto: 	whips Morgaine into shape wagging the WiiMote 	
[16:36]	Morgaine Dinova junps 	Morgaine Dinova junps 	
[16:36]	Morgaine Dinova: 	And jumps too 	
[16:36]	Geneko Nemeth: 	No, I'd love to talk about it, it's what I hate after all. It's just that I might not be the best person and this might not be the best place to talk about it. 	
[16:37]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe Geneko, we are at the edge of the world here 	
[16:38]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, Geneko 	
[16:39]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Well, let's end the meeting here. We've got some good topics for future meetings. Thanks for your ideas, all. :) 	
[16:39]	Geneko Nemeth: 	That was a blast! We've covered a lot today. 	
[16:39]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah! 	
[16:40]	Charlette Proto: 	true, the toolbar seems most pressing to flesh out a bit more 	
[16:40]	Tegg Bode: 	Yep, lots of cool ideas by sounds of it, wish I had more ttime to learn how to get into viewer building :0 	
[16:40]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Topics list is here, if any more ideas come to you later: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User_Experience_Interest_Group/Topics 	
[16:41]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Thanks for coming, all, and see you next week!