Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2024.01.23

240123 meeting transcript
Lindens attending:
Rider Linden
Leviathan Linden
Signal Linden
Bridie Linden
Simon Linden
---------------------
Henri Beauchamp: Greetings everyone.
primerib1: hi Henri!
Yuzuru Jewell: Hello, Iexo.
Alistar Snook: Greetings everyone
Signal Linden: Salutation storm
Lucia Nightfire: 30 seconds of logos
primerib1: /send Hello to 255.255.255.255
Thunder Rahja: If only the entire internet could receive your broadcast.
primerib1: is blocked by router, sadly
primerib1: hi Rider!
Jenna Felton: hello all :)
Henri Beauchamp: Greetings Rider.
Yuzuru Jewell: Hello, Jenna.
Rex Cronon: hi everybody
Yuzuru Jewell: Hello, Rider.
Rex Cronon: hi jena
Yuzuru Jewell: Hello, Rex.
Rex Cronon: hi yuzuru
Henri Beauchamp: Greetings Beq, Jenna, Rex, everyone I missed. :-P
Yuzuru Jewell: Hello, Beq.
Rider Linden: Good afternoon everyone. We'll kick off in just a moment here.
Beq Janus: waves
Rex Cronon: hi henri
Qie Niangao: hi all
Rex Cronon: hi rider
primerib1: prior to starting I hope I will be coherent during the meetup ... is 3am here >,<
Rex Cronon: hi qie
Yuzuru Jewell: Hello, frit.
Meeter: Welcome to the Server User Group
Yuzuru Jewell: Hello, Qie.
Rex Cronon: hi beq
Ifrit Skytower: heya yuzuru
Henri Beauchamp: Greetings Bridie.
Rider Linden: All right... got my notes in front of me so I think we're good to go.
Rex Cronon: hi frit
Bridie Linden: hullo all!
Rex Cronon: hi bridie
Ifrit Skytower: ello rex
primerib1: hi Bridle!
Henri Beauchamp: Greetings Simon.
Simon Linden: Hello Henri
Rex Cronon: hi simon
Simon Linden: Happy Tuesday everyone
Yuzuru Jewell: Hello, Simon.
Rider Linden: So. Last week's excitement! When we attempted to roll the RCs we had picked up an updated debian package that turned out to have a bit of a bug. So we ended up having to roll back the RCs.
Signal Linden: ;_;
primerib1: much ouch
Beq Janus: in out in out shake it all about
Henri Beauchamp: Baaaad Debian !
Nadnerb Tebaldi: ooh so it wasn't an issue with the simulator, but rather its host
Zanibar Pixelbottom: oof
Rex Cronon: hi signal
Rider Linden: Yes, much ouch. I do take a certain amount of damaged joy in the fact that it hit their servers too. :-O
primerib1: /me snerks
Nadnerb Tebaldi: hah
Robin Lobo: =p
Henri Beauchamp: /me snickers.
Rider Linden: So I expect a fix on that quickly.
Lucia Nightfire: quick enough to get another try tomorrow?
Thunder Rahja: I was wondering why my sims had restarts roughly 4 hours apart.
Rex Cronon: hi lucy
Rider Linden: This morning was just a bounce on the main channels. For tomorrow's roll we pinned the package back a version and will roll out with that. So Fall Colors to the RC channels.
Lucia Nightfire: Try what? #3?
Rider Linden: Gingerbread is just about ready to go and I hope we can get that out next Wednesday.
Zanibar Pixelbottom: What fun stuff is Gingerbread gonna give us?
dantia Gothly: I'm excited for that release and LSL additions.
Beq Janus: Given its name I am guessing Fall Colours took a little longer than expected
primerib1: Gingerbread? That's an old Android version!
Lucia Nightfire: functions: llComputeHash(), llGetCameraAspect(), llGetCameraFOV(), llGetNotecardLineSync(), llWorldPosToHUD() constants: NAK sensor max return increased from 16 to 32
Zanibar Pixelbottom: OOOOH!
Rider Linden: Actually... i think it's a bit higher. It was originally going out in December but there was an annoying "bonk" sound when people landed.
Nadnerb Tebaldi: all very exciting
Henri Beauchamp: Fail colors ? :-D
Beq Janus: oh THAT one
Beq Janus: there'e more than enough bonking in SL
Rider Linden: So. Yes. Some REALLY good stuff in there. I think llRezObjectWithParams is in that build as well.
Thunder Rahja: The thumpening. The consequence of changing collision sounds from a script to a prim property.
Simon Linden: /me saves that quote
Lucia Nightfire: that's boinking, not bonking, heh
Rider Linden: Let's keep this g rated ;-)
primerib1: /me giggles
Zanibar Pixelbottom: ahaha, oh yeah the thumpening, we got so tired of it on a preflight that rye yeeted that sound out of existance
Darkover Tone: hullo all
Rider Linden: Anyway, before I open the floor I have an announcement.
Henri Beauchamp: yes, let's not tickle the G spot too much...
Rex Cronon: hi darkover
Lucia Nightfire: I never even got to hear the sound that was being spammed
primerib1: /me gigglesnorts
Rex Cronon: hhmm...
Beq Janus: /me listens
Iexo Bethune: Announcement?
dantia Gothly: oh yeah, has the collision sound problem been addressed?
Rex Cronon: ohh
Rider Linden: I've gotten the green light for Combat2.0. So, if there is still interest in a Combat Committee UG I'll set that up and announce a time/place next week.
Iexo Bethune: \o/
Jessicatz Fairymeadow: sign me up
Shepard Vyper: ooohh thats exciting
dantia Gothly: YEs and more yes Rider
Zanibar Pixelbottom: I can probably round up some people who'd be very interested in a Combat 2.0 UG
ST33LDI9ITAL: yep, if you make it they will come
Rex Cronon: ug=
dantia Gothly: We are behind you 100% on updates and changes for combat functionality.
Rider Linden: I'll take that as a group affirmative then.
Rex Cronon: ug\united gamers?
Rider Linden: User Group
Beq Janus: One UG that when it turns into a fight can feel like a job well done.
Lou Netizen: heh
Robin Lobo: lol Beq
primerib1: weapons obligatory? :D
Rider Linden: I'll get that organized and see where we can get it into the schedule.
Jessicatz Fairymeadow: every meeting is a batle royale
Iexo Bethune: I volunteer to bring explosives and use them irresponsibly. :D
Rex Cronon: i will bring replicators;
Lou Netizen: /me glances at Duckie, who has been known to explodify things
Rex Cronon: :))
Rider Linden: Do any of the other Lindens have announcements before I open the floor?
Lou Netizen: /me grins
Zanibar Pixelbottom: I'll keep an eye on the calendar for any mention of it and send it to peeps I'd know would be interested
dantia Gothly: @Rider will it be possible to hold a meeting for those combat related discussions or will they be here only? I feel like those could have its own meeting
Leviathan Linden: I might...
Rex Cronon: what i say comes out of order. that is new
Leviathan Linden: Was Gingerbread deployed to the beta grid anywhere yet?
Nadnerb Tebaldi: pretty sure what they were announcing _was_ a new meeting
Leviathan Linden: Nevermind, I went to the internal tool and I see: </b></font>Gingerbread isn't public yet.
Iexo Bethune: That's a fascinating hint, Leviathan... :3
Rider Linden: Dantia, it will be a new meeting. There are some things that are relevant to both groups but it seems like there is enough combat specific things that it deserves its own meeting.
Leviathan Linden: I have one small announcement: </b></font>if anyone wants to play with the new stuff in Gingerbread I'm running two public regions with the game_control feature.
Henri Beauchamp: Leviathan put some secret ingredient in the gingerbread ?
Leviathan Linden: And those regions are built on top of Gingerbread.
Leviathan Linden: LeviathanLove and LeviathanLost on the beta grid.
Nadnerb Tebaldi: ooo
dantia Gothly: ty @Rider
Leviathan Linden: That is all I've got. I open the floor.
Rider Linden: Gingerbread is deployed yes. I'm unsure if I've put up the one with the pinned package though.
Jessicatz Fairymeadow: /me hooks up steel battalion controller to SL
Rex Cronon: u r replicating yourself leviathan;)
Lucia Nightfire: pinned package?
primerib1: buggy Debian package, Lucy
Lucia Nightfire: on Mauve, the GB doesn't have game control
Leviathan Linden: I see Gingerbread proper up on four regions on the Beta grid but I don't think any of them are public.
Rider Linden: Game control is only on those two regions at the moment.
Duckie Dickins: does pressing up up down down left right left right B, A, Start make the viewer say Hippo!
ST33LDI9ITAL: is the game control stuff at a good point for testing now? think you workin on refactoring parts of it last I knew
Ravie Bunny: konami code should always have some kind of easter egg associated with it
primerib1: seconded!
Leviathan Linden: Oh I see... Mauve is on "Riders Test Channel" which I guess is equivalent to "Gingerbread".
Henri Beauchamp: The Hippo Easter egg got removed a long time ago...
Rider Linden: Yes.
Lucia Nightfire: just w/o game control
Duckie Dickins: ctrl-alt-shift-H still works in firestorm
Thunder Rahja: I'm sure someone will reimplement the konami code into SL with game_control.
Henri Beauchamp: @Duckie: </b></font>I reused that shortcut years ago in my viewer... So Hippo's gone there. :-P
Rider Linden: Leviathan can correct me if I'm wrong but I think his channels are Gingerbread+Game Control.
Beq Janus: I did remove the force breakpoint shortcut though, spoiled my own fun doing that
Leviathan Linden: That is correct.
Rider Linden: What Konami code? (There's a studio I've not thought about in a very long time)
Lucia Nightfire: Rider, you never heard of the Konami Code?
Iexo Bethune: [12:14:48] Duckie Dickins: </b></font>does pressing up up down down left right left right B, A, Start make the viewer say Hippo!
Leviathan Linden: Er... that is correct. LevaithanLove and LeviathanLost are just Gingerbread + game_control.
Thunder Rahja: The famed input combination that activates all of the cheats ever.
Vaalith Jinn: up up down down left right left right B A
Rider Linden: UpUpDownDown...etc?
Lucia Nightfire: Clearly you prefer PC over console, heh
Ravie Bunny: Konami code is a famous code from the old game on NES, Contra, where UUDDLRLRBA start would result in 30 lives instead of 3.
Rex Cronon: street fighter moves?
Rex Cronon: ?
Iexo Bethune: Well, he is working on a PC game, so...
Rider Linden: <--- PS5 guy actually.
ST33LDI9ITAL: sv_cheats 1
dantia Gothly: lol
Lucia Nightfire: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konami_Code
Rider Linden: I suspect somebody will write a combat system that uses it.
Jessicatz Fairymeadow: you betcha
dantia Gothly: those would obviously be for the creator of a RP system or curated content to include but would be funny easter egg.
Lucia Nightfire: Yeah, modeled after the MGS version, heh
Lou Netizen: I'd probabyl just make it say "User is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported."
Zanibar Pixelbottom: HEHEHEHEHE
Rider Linden: LOL!
primerib1: /me giggles
Thunder Rahja: Enter the Konami code into SL and you'll be able to fly kilometers high without a flight assist!
Rider Linden: What else is on the agenda for today?
Iexo Bethune: It's stopping that'll be the problem. xD
Lucia Nightfire: I'm still waiting on llFly()....
dantia Gothly: How soon can we access those new regions on the beta grid to start testing out these new functions?
Beq Janus: crosh regions without crashing would be a good cheatr code
dantia Gothly: is that live now?
Zanibar Pixelbottom: Speaking of fly, it's surprisingly one of the few things that aren't enforced serverside properly.
Rider Linden: Gingerbread is live now.
Iexo Bethune: @Beq: </b></font> Monty is working on that.
Rider Linden: Mauve, Jigglypuff and a few others.
Lucia Nightfire: go to Mauve if you want to test everyything but game control, else go to the two regions Levi mentioned earlier
Henri Beauchamp: @Rider: </b></font>Any chance to get improvements for vehicles bumping (and currently getting stuck) into ban walls, this year ?
primerib1: oh yes that please
Henri Beauchamp: /me wants to see bouncing vehicles...
Zanibar Pixelbottom: It would be nice if instead of getting stuck it would nudge the object out like sim boarders do
Nadnerb Tebaldi: game_control will also require a project viewer, right?
Rider Linden: I'd like to get that in this summer. It is high on my list of stuff to do. It just seems to keep getting pushed back.
Leviathan Linden: Yes game_control requires a special experimental viewer.
Nadnerb Tebaldi: Speaking of vehicles and bumping, I do still experience vehicles colliding with their occupants during crossings
Lucia Nightfire: get what in this summer?
Rider Linden: Vehicles at parcel borders.
Henri Beauchamp: @Rider: </b></font>Also, if we could get a new capability, for viewers to request all banned parcels in a given sim (agent or neighbour sims), so that we coulf have that info *before* bumping into walls...
Leviathan Linden: I'm interested in working on vehicles bouncing off of ban walls. I might try to take a swing at that if I find some time.
Iexo Bethune: Hoping Monty's crossing rework will fix that, Nadnerb. I think LL are done throwing more spaghetti on the existing code.
primerib1: oooh ... vehicle billiards!
Rider Linden: Going from memory, the rule will be: </b></font>If the vehicle can't enter a parcel bounce it back from the border. Vehicles may enter a parcel if all seated agents may enter that parcel (and the parcel allows vehicle entry)
Thunder Rahja: Imagine a maze of no-public-access parcels, and navigating a vehicle through that. Emergent gameplay!
Lou Netizen: …and a scripted system that changes parcel access lists on the fly
Leviathan Linden: Yeah Vale, that was what I was thinking: </b></font>ban parcels as obstacles in some vehicle game.
Nadnerb Tebaldi: Yeah! Though I don't think there's a parcel setting for "vehicle entry". Object entry prevents objects with no seated agents from entering, but with agents object entry has no effect.
Rider Linden: I'm envisioning a region filled with nothing but hamster balls bouncing off parcels.
Lucia Nightfire: how about an available prim check ;) oh that will make the vehicle users gripe, heh
Thunder Rahja: Aw yeah, the vehicle will be a hamster ball.
Nadnerb Tebaldi: Yeah LI check would be terrible
Iexo Bethune: Oi, a setting for no vehicle entry would be a very special kind of hell...
Jessicatz Fairymeadow: the flying clubs would revolt
Jenna Felton: the parcells are limited vertically, i think at a certein height you can fly over the parcell. When it happens that bounding is not possible, maybe the vehicle could be moved to above the parcell :)
Rider Linden: I actually have something written up for sending that information through the region overlay that is sent from the simulator.
Henri Beauchamp: @Rider: </b></font>Also, if we could get a new capability, for viewers to request all banned parcels in a given sim (agent or neighbour sims), so that we could have that info (for mini-map + ban walls) *before* bumping into walls... (repost)
Iexo Bethune: I mean awesome, but can you imagine the extent of the red zones that'd be everywhere? Mainland would become completely impassable overland, at a time when water passages just do not exist.
dantia Gothly: OH while were all here and I'm not exactly sure if this is the form for this, I've brought this up on the discord (see content channel) but the default rig you have on the wiki is vary vary out dated and does not work in blender post 2.82. the bone rotations are wrong and users cannot use it with modern tools without a 3rd party plugin to fix those issues.
Qie Niangao: So there's a new security system that creates blacklist banlines for everybody who enters the region, upon entry, so gathering those banlines in advance won't help with that
Lucia Nightfire: make a game out of it, don't touch the ban walls or you die, like in Berzerk (80's Atari game)
dantia Gothly: Please Update the rig or make a new version that users can use out of the box for blender without having to buy a 3rd party plugin.
Rider Linden: @Henri, It's not a replacement for your request but does llScriptDanger work for vehicle non-entry?
Lucia Nightfire: no
Nadnerb Tebaldi: Yeah that seems to me to be abuse. I keep seeing "you have been banned indefinitely" out of nowhere while driving on protected roads
Thunder Rahja: You don't need parcel access and ban walls to do that in a combat sim, Lucy.
Leviathan Linden: dantia, the viewer dev team is who should be hearing about that outdated/buggy rig.
Iexo Bethune: Something clearly needs to be done about these security orbs. They're getting more and more insidious all the time, and that is what it is, too, there's no need for anything that aggressive for security, at this point it's griefing.
Nadnerb Tebaldi: nothing happens of course, but it's irritating
Lucia Nightfire: script danger is only for no public scripts check
Darkover Tone: yeah those kind of orbs need to be addressed badly
Rider Linden: Dantia, I thought that the viewer team had posted an update. You should check at the CC meeting.
Iexo Bethune: Sadly there's no governance UG, so there's no place to voice our concerns over any of this stuff.
dantia Gothly: those are two different meetings in which some of you also attend so I never know which to bring it up in.
Lucia Nightfire: hmm, maybe I did have that function underestimated...
Rider Linden: /me still needs to write his "Security (firebreathing) Chicken"
dantia Gothly: and no, the rig has never been updated.
Henri Beauchamp: @Rider: </b></font>it's not a script thing. It's for piloting and slaloming between panned parcels... Super useful, when you have that info on the mini-map (e.g. when sailing, flying), but this comes too late currently (only when the server thinks you risk colliding, but it sends too late when in a vehicle with speed or high inertia).
Darkover Tone: hehe attack chicken
Beq Janus: did the governance UG get canned?
Iexo Bethune: Long time ago.
Lucia Nightfire: build or script, then
Iexo Bethune: People keep bringing up those issues at the land UG, and they always say, "This isn't the meeting for that", and when they ask what is, all they can say is, "There isn't one."
Rider Linden: @Henri, Ah. On the viewer side. Yes. There is an open feature request for that.
Rider Linden: (It would be useful for more than just slaloming between parcels too...)
Henri Beauchamp: Well, sadly, in some places, even sailing equates to slaloming between banned parcels... :-(
Iexo Bethune: But yes, Rider, please, do not enable a "no vehicle entry" feature. It would be devastating to air traffic, because there's no way around passing over land on most of the mainland.
Rider Linden: I was on a Sunday sail once and got bounced back and forth between two parcels for 5 minutes before I could maneuver out.
Shepard Vyper: it'd be nice if there was some mainland continent, which didn't allow these kinds of land restrictions, and which had really nicely designed roads and waterways
Rider Linden: I'll make sure that stays as is.
Iexo Bethune: \o/
Iexo Bethune: @Pepper: </b></font> Aside from waterways, Bellisseria.
primerib1: ha, just did hi-res map of Belli
Iexo Bethune: Bellisseria is living proof that restricting security orbs will not cause the end of the world.
Jenna Felton: When a script can gather info about parcells the vehicle can not enter, then the script should be able to calculate a safe route.
Rider Linden: (I actually had to do my first actual ban on my mainland parcel last week...)
Nadnerb Tebaldi: it seems quite clear to me that LL intended air travel to be possible by limiting the effect of "no public access" to near ground level, and these orbs that ban everyone on a region are an attempt to exploit the fact that banning raises banlines to max height.
primerib1: @Jenna good point
Jenna Felton: i not know if it would be cheating, but maybe it is a solution for navigation :)
Qie Niangao: Again, though, if banlines are raised only when the agent enters the region, no pre-population of a map can work
Rider Linden: Of the top of my head, I think the hard floor is 500m... but I'd have to look it up.
ST33LDI9ITAL: yea.. .that does seem like an exploit tbh
Lucia Nightfire: @lexo, LL was able to do that because Belli didn't exist yet, making it retroactive now would be "dangerous"
primerib1: besides, security orbs work not using banlines.
Christi Charron: well said nerbs :)
primerib1: and I hate 0-second orbs
Leviathan Linden: Nadnerb, you are correct. The ban height limits were definitely intended to allow free public travel in the skies.
Iexo Bethune: @Nadnerb & Qie: </b></font> Very true, which just speaks to the urgent necessity for something to be done about orbs. They're getting out of hand, and at this point their functionality is more akin to griefing tools than actual security devices.
Lucia Nightfire: hard floor?
Rider Linden: virtual ground. Don't fly below this altitude.
Henri Beauchamp: 0-second orbs whould be forbidden and voluntarily broken !... Introduce a 15s delay in LSL for banning/ejecting functions ?
dantia Gothly: hard floor is a term used in the airforce I think more often, it refers to setting a minimum height or (floor)
Lucia Nightfire: the air corridor in Belli is between 2000 - 2200 m IIRC
dantia Gothly: keeping a buffer between you and the actual ground
Iexo Bethune: Introducing the delay into the function would break all existing orbs, though, Henri...
ST33LDI9ITAL: but it's still their land.. so technically it's up to them.. unfortunately all these fugly skyboxes have rights too...
Iexo Bethune: That's something that should have been done from the start, it's too late now.
Henri Beauchamp: Yes, *precisely* waht I want ! :-P
Thunder Rahja: Bellisseria requires security orbs have a minimum 15 second warning before taking action, and Resident-owned parcels are relatively small. 15 seconds might not be enough to cross a larger parcel on the mainland.
Jenna Felton: About orbs. I beleive i suggested earlier a parcell setting "orb secured" where the owner would denote that the place is secured by an orb. Maybe it is a good idea to make this checkbox in the land info, and then after some time ban every orb when it was not registered in the land info.
ST33LDI9ITAL: it would also be dope if there were global space environment past certain point of elevation..
primerib1: how do you identify the orbs, though?
Iexo Bethune: That'd be the problem...
Lucia Nightfire: I'm against retroactively banning orbs for people who wish to have their vehicle and its land impact enter a land owner's land at any altitude regardless of commerce type going on on said land.
Rider Linden: "Orb secured" just a flag that the land owner could set on their parcel? Information only?
Jessicatz Fairymeadow: tie it to any use of the banning/kicking script functions, so that they don't work unless the parcel is marked as "orbed"
Henri Beauchamp: @Jenna: </b></font>too complicated, and people could derez-rerez their orb regularly to evade the check
Jenna Felton: Claire, people do it, and report the parcells when they were sent home and there was no this checkbox active :)
Beq Janus: return everything prim by prim until the orb is found, call it an incentive to comply :-)
primerib1: ah so manual reporting
Beq Janus: hi Joe
Lucia Nightfire: This is what vehicle supremacy looks like, heh
Jessicatz Fairymeadow: make it so llEjectFromLand/etc do not work unless the parcel flag is set
Iexo Bethune: I'd ban orbs with timers that go below 10 or 15 seconds, and that ban users. In fact, user bans should probably be removed from LSL in general, since... why does an object that can already eject someone or teleport them home also need the ability to ban them?
Henri Beauchamp: However, on the server isde, perhaps LL could implement an automatic flagging of parcels that have seen the scripted ejection of avatars (not just one avatar, but like 3 in the same day)...
Jenna Felton: cool idea Jessica :)
Rider Linden: I wouldn't go that far Jessicatz.
Thunder Rahja: Security orbs are a resident-created construct. There are more reasons to use scripted ejections than just privacy.
primerib1: @Iexo, some orbs ban repeat offenders, I'd say that's an okay feature
Henri Beauchamp: The flag could then be queried by the viewers and be shown on map/mini-map
Jessicatz Fairymeadow: -^
Jenna Felton: Henri, also a good idea
Iexo Bethune: @Rider, actually, why not? That would be a very easy way to police the "Orb" checkbox...
dantia Gothly: I think jess has a valid opinion on it, though the parcel flag would be nice and as a sim owner I do want more controls over my land and parcels.
Jessicatz Fairymeadow: downside is when every parcel turns it on even if they don't need it
Iexo Bethune: True... And it would also include parcels with appropriately timered orbs...
Thunder Rahja: How about, instead, a land setting that allows public entry for a limited time, e.g. minimum 60 seconds, before automatic removal?
Simon Linden: yeah I think that's the big question - will it be accurate enough to be really useful
Henri Beauchamp: Thus why auto-flagging on LSL ejection use is better
Rider Linden: It would give people a heads up about danger.
Iexo Bethune: Incorporating orb function into SL itself? Hmm...
primerib1: that's actually interesting
Rider Linden: So, granting an "easement" time.
primerib1: saves LI on the parcel as well, lighter script load ... many benefits
Thunder Rahja: Allow vehicles to pass through, but tell visitors that they're crossing private land.
Iexo Bethune: At that point, you probably could start looking into banning at least certain types of orbs, because people would have a built-in alternative.
dantia Gothly: you could include those features provided by those orbs as region features and let us configure them as needed, Give a minimum time for people entering the sim to choose to join a group or experience to continue being there etc. It could also give us more control over returning content that isn't owned by land renters etc.
dantia Gothly: that would be a nice to have.
ST33LDI9ITAL: idk seems like only good way to do something like would be if you automated the flagging.. like if any script on parcel/region has those functions in enabled script then it sets the flag
Lou Netizen: so, flying anywhere will be endless "you're over private land" spam
ST33LDI9ITAL: even then a bit redundant I'd think.. gotta be better solution
Leviathan Linden: Perhaps the "you're over private land" could be a UI indicator. Some icon shows up.
Jessicatz Fairymeadow: orb dialogue boxes are already the bane of flying anywhere...
primerib1: hey I was about to suggest that Levi
polysail: I don't see how you're going to police LSL scripts.
Iexo Bethune: Oh, by the way, dunno who did it, but whoever did, thanks for making the Bellisseria orbs speak to chat rather than use a dialog. I know it's a small thing, but popping out of mouselook to close dialogs all the time is annoying.
polysail: It's been "illegal" to spy on people with LSL code since literally forever.
polysail: There's marketplace listings that have LSL based chat snoops
polysail: with thousands of copies sold
dantia Gothly: yeah another indication Icon in the top bar with the rest of the @Leviathan would be fine for that also.
polysail: Not even the listing is taken down.
dantia Gothly: m*
Henri Beauchamp: In fact, instead of just a flag, when any scripted device on a parcel is using an LSL eject/TP hom/Ban function, the parcel could be marked with the time it took between the entrance of the avatar and its ejection, and that value would be public, for viewers to use mini-map colors on parcels, depending on the delays... This would be super informative, automatic (no cheating), and would not cause any disruption in existing security devices...
polysail: How can you distinguish between an LSL script that "doesn't give substantial warning" and one that does?
Nadnerb Tebaldi: Orb behavior is generally speaking inappropriate for the "problem" it attempts to solve. Most users set them to the most aggressive setting avaialble, and this causes them to become a danger to everyone in an entire 4096m column of airspace, regardless of the fact that their owner doesn't actually have any builds in most of that area.
polysail: That's an arbitrary choice and you can't really govern it.
Jenna Felton: Leviathan, a good idea this land privacy icon :) and also I'd suggest that clicking it (when you not sit on a vehicle) would teleport you back to the place where you was not on private land. To avoid being ejected when there is a 'legal' or active :)
Leviathan Linden: The icon that shows up for "you're on private land" could be a countdown: </b></font>10, 9, 8...
Lucia Nightfire: @Henri, how is that setup to know if a person was on a scripted/external banlist?
Jenna Felton: legal *orb*
Iexo Bethune: Any banning of orbs would need to involve policing of Marketplace and reporting by users. There'd be no easy way, but at least it would reduce the incidence.
polysail: Marketplaceshmarketplace
polysail: a security orb is a 12 second LSL script
polysail: anyone can write it
primerib1: true
Lucia Nightfire: I have more people on my banlists for ageplay or underaged avatars in an adult env than anything. How is that setup to know if a quick ban is justified or not?
Qie Niangao: well... could just disable the scripted eject and banlist functions on the Governor's estate.
polysail: Right
Iexo Bethune: Anyone who can script. How many rocker jockies in the Blake do you know that can or would, especially when they can just click a few settings in their parcel options to do the same thing?
Henri Beauchamp: @Lucy: </b></font>avatar enters parcel: </b></font>keep entrance time in memory (probably already done for traffics stats anyway), if avatar is ejected, look at time, subtrcat entarnce time, mark parcel delay before ejection.
dantia Gothly: I feel like some of these things should and would be included with the additional combat features you intend to add, We need more control over the game experience and those features would compliment them well as region/parcel features.
polysail: because legitimate ejection scrpts that keep stalkers away are ~ what
polysail: Not legitimate?
Rex Cronon: elizabetth that is copy-pasta not scripting:)
primerib1: another idea is to limit orb effective effect. so if resident is, say, 2000m above the orb, the orb can't do eject / TPHome
polysail: It's a necessary evil ~ that either ~
polysail: A: </b></font>You allow stalkers to exist on private land that you don't want them to exist on ~ for non-zero periods of time
animats: If privacy is being seriously re-thought, I'd suggest that if a parcel is set for "can't see in", that should also imply can't sit without a clear line of sight. Then you wouldn't be able to teleport through walls and doors. Locked doors would actually work. Just set your teleport destination to your welcome mat and lock the doors.
polysail: or B: </b></font>Security orbs exist.
primerib1: orb can still warn but just can't eject
Lucia Nightfire: @Henri, there is a big difference from kicking a person for people in a vehicle than for ToS violations, both of which the server does not know the intent,
polysail: The latter seems to be the better choice to be honest.
Shepard Vyper: @ELizabeth: </b></font>just add the user to the ban list, that way they can never enter
polysail: Oh yeah?
polysail: Great
polysail: Let me add Starman the pedophile and his
polysail: 14500000 alts
Christi Charron: Maybe any non-attached, scripted avatar ejection be changed just silently fail if the avatar is within a height range?
Henri Beauchamp: @Lucy: </b></font>TOS violation won't be determined by scripts, that would be a manual banning action and won't be accounted for in the "eject delay" stat for the parcel
Shepard Vyper: alternatively, make your parcel private
Iexo Bethune: Alt spamming has been a problem since verification stopped being required...
polysail: My point is ~ security orbs provide a ~ annoying albeit useful functionality.
Nadnerb Tebaldi: How does TOS violation come into this
polysail: Distinguishing between Security orb Use
polysail: and Security Orb Abuse
Nadnerb Tebaldi: it is not J. Random Resident's job to ban people for violating LL's TOS
Nadnerb Tebaldi: that's LL's job
polysail: is very very nuanced ~
Lucia Nightfire: Nad, read back, between Henri and My convo
Rider Linden: 'Liz is right. We're not going to ban security orbs. The thought behind the self reporting tag is just to provide a heads up for other users.
Rex Cronon: make it a tos violation for a orb to tp u under 16s or if over 500m:)))))
Duckie Dickins: I'll play devil's advocate... Any premium user who has purchased that land that you wish to cross over, purchased the right to use that property up to the 4096 meter height limit. What they want to do with it is really their own business. If they want to put an orb out that yells at kids to get off their lawn...it's pretty much their right to do so and any sort of curtailing of that will create more backlash than the effort is worth. You want a place to drive and fly over, you can create estates that allow for that. :D
Lucia Nightfire: he suggested recording delay times between agent entry and moderation, which does not take intent into accoutn because it can't
Darkover Tone: there should be bans for abusive orbs though, like the 0 second warning with tp home, that crashes you and kills the scripts in all your attachments
Iexo Bethune: @Rider: </b></font> That assumes they want to. Most orb users don't care enough, and many actually want to cause problems for others. Orbs are essentially a legal griefing tool.
primerib1: well at the very least, recording delay between entry & ejection can be ground for investigation
polysail: Entry by whom?
Nadnerb Tebaldi: To respond to that Duckie, LL created the mainland with the clear intent to allow people to traverse it and built in obvious limitations to the original system to prevent people from infringing upon that use case.
Henri Beauchamp: @Rider: </b></font>self-reporting won't work... Auto-reporting (on LSL eject/ban) is better, and you can even give a "delay before ejection" stat instead of just a flag.
Iexo Bethune: Especially the ones that do stuff like pre-banning.
Rex Cronon: even in rl u can't control if somebody is flying 1km high over your house
Nadnerb Tebaldi: People have been using loopholes to get around those limitations in increasingly egregious ways as time has gone on
polysail: Right ~ but how many rights
Rider Linden: I had somebody put up an orb on the only parcel that let from my place to open water... blocked me in. My solution was to write them a nice note and we were able to work it out.
polysail: do you want to give to stalkes?
primerib1: @Rex that is why I suggest limiting the reach of the Orb's ejection power
polysail: the moment you remove security orbs ~
polysail: you've given every creep in SL
ST33LDI9ITAL: don't get too derailed... what led to this whole convo to start today though was we need that heads up actually ahead of time... so however best to go about that, that can also be integrated into viewer or minimap somehow would be 𝘯𝘪𝘤𝘦
polysail: the license to just hover over your parcel at 1000 meters
Darkover Tone: @Rider, sadly that works half the time at most, a lot of people are just jerks on purpose
polysail: and watch your every move.
Henri Beauchamp: @Rider: did the fact you could work it out was related to the "Linden" family name ?... :-D
Nadnerb Tebaldi: Parcel owners are purchasing the right to build permanent structures on their land, not to completely prevent traversal by all users.
Iexo Bethune: Agreed, Rex. And the argument is always made, "This isn't RL", well it has planes dunnit? Aircraft and control over property up to infinite altitude are mutually exclusive.
primerib1: /me giggles
ST33LDI9ITAL: lol
ST33LDI9ITAL: Rider's nice note "remove your orb or get banned"
Rider Linden: Henri, no, I was on my resident account.
Nadnerb Tebaldi: There is a ban list for them to use against people who cause undue disruption to the owner
Lucia Nightfire: @Nad, you can't make that statement, use case is not finite
Rider Linden: (I didn't tell them where I work)
primerib1: oh time is almost done ... *sighs ... no time to ask about llRegex or Map generation :-/
dantia Gothly: ask anyway
dantia Gothly: no harm in asking
Qie Niangao: I can see that working often, actually. A lot of these things are deployed with no idea what they actually do
Nadnerb Tebaldi: If they want a space that no one else can access, LL offers private islands!
Rider Linden: Dang! The hour flew by.
Jenna Felton: /me found the Jura, this is about the parcell flag: </b></font>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-232238
Jenna Felton: Jira
Rex Cronon: i am sure guys that orbs are a topic of discussion that can last for months:) idodn'
Rider Linden: What about Map generation? Maybe I can address it quickly?
Lucia Nightfire: [12:56:23] Nadnerb Tebaldi: </b></font>Parcel owners are purchasing the right to build permanent structures on their land, not to completely prevent traversal by all users. <---this is the statement I'm replying to
dantia Gothly: yeah!
primerib1: (1) llRegex is being worked on? (2) I may need a better way to grab hi-res maps without bruteforcing Akamai, suggestion?
Rex Cronon: i don't think we can fix it in 1 hours
Darkover Tone: There's the peeps not knowing what they're doing, and what their options are, and then there's the plain ole jerks
Iexo Bethune: @Rider: </b></font> Glad that's the case, but when I write notes about orbs, they're almost always ignored, and a significant amount of the instances where they aren't ignored, they're responded to with something to the effect of "Go f*ck yourself." Orb users, particularly the very aggressive orbs, are not friendly people.
Henri Beauchamp: Jura is a mountain chain in France... :-D
Thunder Rahja: I posted a feature request on Canny, if you'd like to continue this conversation as a possible land setting: </b></font>https://feedback.secondlife.com/feature-requests/p/easement-access-for-private-land
dantia Gothly: Are we going to get some kind of LSL for getting the map or region image texture?
dantia Gothly: PLEASE
primerib1: @dantia currently I just hit the Akamai server
Rider Linden: (1) Not yet but queued up. (2) hmmmm... that's going to take some thought.
Lucia Nightfire: dantia, I've asked for it years too, heh
Zanibar Pixelbottom: Well I got pulled away for most of the meeting but wow I had no idea ban orbs were getting that bad
Darkover Tone: Hey not all orb users are evil Iexo!
primerib1: but I got throttled at 200-ish requests per second
primerib1: takes a looooong time to grab all map tiles for 2100x2100 coordinates
Rider Linden: I've wanted to do region maps as texture assets that you can reference from a script for a long time.
Beq Janus: @henri, and an Island in Scotland
Lucia Nightfire: Zanzibar, the security orb gripe has existed since moderation functions and sensors existed
Rex Cronon: we get animated region maps rider?
Ifrit Skytower: that'd be really useful for our map project
Rider Linden: That is a lot of data Claire
Simon Linden: I like that idea too
Qie Niangao: Map tile assets would be a big win
Leviathan Linden: I was thinking... maybe each region could obtain its map image and make it available... but I'm sure someone would want to be able to query the entire map remotely.
primerib1: @Rider yup! I need those to make my hi-res maps of all SL
dantia Gothly: Also @Rider, if work is done maybe something to update the maps different zoom levels to be updated properly as we still see missing regions on the map at close zoom levels
primerib1: which I've uploaded and provided for free on my Box.net account
Simon Linden: Rex - just put a bot viewer up at 200+m, look down and stream the image
Christi Charron: it would be useful to the vehicle community as well
Rider Linden: There's a Youtube channel for that Rex ;-)
Nadnerb Tebaldi: @Lucy: </b></font>Sensors are substantially more limited than today's modern functions that can just list every agent on a region.
Rex Cronon: interesting idea simon
Lou Netizen: it would get orbed, Simon
Iexo Bethune: @Dark: </b></font> The aggressive ones are. People who set them to 15, 20, 30s, especially not on Bellisseria, are alright. I assume they're friendly, but never have reason to message them because they aren't a problem.
Nadnerb Tebaldi: Ye Olde orbs could only detect avatars that passed within a reasonble distance of the build they were protecting
Lucia Nightfire: @Nad, regardless, the gripe has existed all this time
Simon Linden: it would also get people rezzing textures in front of it
Rider Linden: I believe there is some backend work that's coming for the map server, but I don't know where it is on the roadmap.
Simon Linden: I've gotta run off - thanks everyone for the conversation again
primerib1: ah okay @Rider, thanks
Lou Netizen: thanks for having us
Iexo Bethune: Alright, thanks for coming, Simon!
Christi Charron: ~YAY!!! \ \(@o@)/ / YAY!!!~
Rex Cronon: youtube chanel for peeping bots:)
Nadnerb Tebaldi: thanks Simon, Rider!
primerib1: bye Simon!
dantia Gothly: take care Simon.
Christi Charron: woops
Signal Linden: /me slinks away
Qie Niangao: Thanks Lindens, have fun all
Henri Beauchamp: take care everyone.
Rex Cronon: tc simon
Rex Cronon: tc all leaving
Darkover Tone: @Iexo, yes, when they set at those limits it's generally to make sure peeps can pass, it's what i do too
Rider Linden: Thank you everyone.
Iexo Bethune: You too, Signal. xD
Nadnerb Tebaldi: Leviathan
Nadnerb Tebaldi: everyone
primerib1: bye Rider, Signal
Iexo Bethune: @Rider, one more thing.
Yuzuru Jewell: Thank you, Rider. Thank you, SImon. Thank you, Leviathan.
Rider Linden: I should run myself.
Darkover Tone: ty for the meeting!
dantia Gothly: ♥
Rex Cronon: tc signal
Lucia Nightfire: one side (land owners) say their rights take precedent, the other side (vehicle enthusiasts) say they should have unfettered access to the other sides land
Iexo Bethune: Think we could get a Governance UG again?
Rex Cronon: tc qie
Rex Cronon: tc henri
Iexo Bethune: That would be the place for a lot of this Orb talk.
Rider Linden: I think Duckie just exploded...
Nadnerb Tebaldi: unfettered access is overstating the case a little lucy
Rex Cronon: tc rider
primerib1: /me giggles
Nadnerb Tebaldi: as is "their rights"
Lou Netizen: Duckie does that
Darkover Tone: just reasonable access, especially if there's no other route
Fourmilab: Bye. See you next time!
primerib1: /me waves to all ... "Take care everyone! Time for me to sleep.. it's 4am"
Nadnerb Tebaldi: I'm not arguing that people should be forced to allow everyone to squat on their land indefinitely
Lucia Nightfire: no it isn't, why else is there this snowball going on to restrict moderation functions and land owner rights?
Rider Linden: Have a great week everyone.
polysail: Take care all ~
polysail: /me waves
Nadnerb Tebaldi: _traversal_ is distinctly different
Leviathan Linden: Cheers.
Iexo Bethune: Thanks Rider, LEviathan!
primerib1: bye Levi!
Rex Cronon: if duckie exploded there should be duck feather s all around:)
dantia Gothly: take care leviathan
Thunder Rahja: That's what this feature request tries to address, a middle ground between land owners and vehicle operators: </b></font>https://feedback.secondlife.com/feature-requests/p/easement-access-for-private-land
Lucia Nightfire: Rider got out of here quick heh
Rex Cronon: have fin rider
Rex Cronon: tc polysail
Rex Cronon: have fun*