Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2012.08.03

Simulator_User_Group
Prev 2012.07.31	Next 2012.08.10
== List of Speakers ==
Andrew Linden 	Ardy Lay 	Baker Linden
Bonadea Avedon 	Cheesey Linden 	Dahlia Trimble
Emma Krokus 	Fenix Eldritch 	Gramma Fiddlesticks
MartinRJ Fayray 	Motor Loon 	Nalates Urriah
Qie Niangao 	RINOBIT Footman	Simon Linden
Snickers Snook 	Sonya Haight 	Sweet Valentine
TankMaster Finesmith	Toysoldier Thor	Youri Ashton
== Transcript ==
[16:02] Baker Linden: :(
[16:02] Emma Krokus: 3!
[16:02] Emma Krokus: hi andrew:)
[16:02] Toysoldier Thor: i dont know if Emma's heart can take it
[16:02] Andrew Linden: Hello.
[16:03] Emma Krokus: hi gramms:)
[16:03] Emma Krokus: hi snickers:)
[16:03] Youri Ashton: hey andrew! nice to see you again
[16:03] Snickers Snook: hola
[16:03] MartinRJ Fayray: hello all
[16:03] Toysoldier Thor: Snikers!!!
[16:03] Bonadea Avedon: i have cupcakes
[16:03] Baker Linden: SL Marketplace search for "Cupcake" did NOT show me what I was looking for.
[16:03] Sweet Valentine: give
[16:03] Andrew Linden: Simon, why don't you start.
[16:03] Sweet Valentine: please hehe
[16:04] TankMaster Finesmith: heya baker, andrew
[16:04] Ardy Lay: Baker, lots of people say stuff like that about SL Marketplace search.
[16:04] Sweet Valentine: I never said nuffin about MP search ever wasn't me nuh uh
[16:05] Simon Linden: ok, let's see ... we will have the usual round of server updates next week
[16:05] Toysoldier Thor: lol
[16:05] TankMaster Finesmith: "usual"?
[16:05] Toysoldier Thor: here is the url to the agenda if anyone wants it...
[16:05] Toysoldier Thor: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Server/Sim/Scripting_User_Group
[16:05] Simon Linden: Tuesday and Wednesday rollouts, I mean
[16:05] TankMaster Finesmith: i got word PF was going out
[16:05] Gramma Fiddlesticks: thanks Toy!
[16:06] cupcake-chocolate wear me: mmmm cupcake
[16:06] Sweet Valentine: cheeezy is here!
[16:06] Simon Linden: The pathfinding code is up for promotion, but as usual that may change at the last minute
[16:06] Cheesey Linden: hello
[16:06] Sweet Valentine: opps cheesey*
[16:06] Emma Krokus: hi cheesey:)
[16:06] TankMaster Finesmith: ah, so PF is just in a RC channel?
[16:06] Simon Linden: We're likely to get 2 new RC versions too - both are for bug fixes
[16:07] Simon Linden: ... on Wednesday, of course
[16:07] TankMaster Finesmith: ive been out of the loop these past few weeks so i odont really know what state its currently in
[16:07] Andrew Linden: The pathfinding servers used to be on a channel called "Second Life RC PF"
[16:07] Simon Linden: Yes, pathfinding servers have been on an RC channel for a while, getting bug fixes
[16:07] Andrew Linden: but has been on "Second Life RC Magnum" for several weeks now.
[16:07] TankMaster Finesmith: on in off anyway :P
[16:07] Andrew Linden: And will be promoted to the "Second Life Server" channel next week.
[16:07] TankMaster Finesmith: ok
[16:07] TankMaster Finesmith: good to know
[16:08] Sweet Valentine: Thank you lol
[16:08] RINOBIT Footman: hi all
[16:08] Simon Linden: The viewer pathfinding functionality is available in the beta viewer now
[16:08] RINOBIT Footman: ciao Andrew
[16:08] RINOBIT Footman: :)
[16:08] TankMaster Finesmith: Im still working on gettting the PF code merged into Firestorm, but its not going to be ready for next week's release of PF
[16:08] Andrew Linden: which means that the other RC's (BlueSteele and LeTigre) will get the pathfinding features on Wed, or whenever they update after the normal Tuesday roll of the main channel.
[16:08] Simon Linden: yeah, that's a pretty big change
[16:08] Youri Ashton: did hear from Oscar is is likely Tuesday to be update day
[16:08] TankMaster Finesmith: actually PF was the easy part
[16:08] Simon Linden: Tuesday is our regular update day for the main server channel, yes
[16:09] Andrew Linden: Oh hi RINOBIT. Welcome back.
[16:09] Youri Ashton: did hear there was a update this week as well
[16:09] RINOBIT Footman: ;)
[16:09] TankMaster Finesmith: dealing with autoreplace and speelcheck is harder, and the new grid manager login code
[16:09] Youri Ashton: heya rino
[16:09] Simon Linden: The update info should be in the forums soon at http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/bd-p/SecondLifeServer
[16:09] RINOBIT Footman: ciao youri
[16:10] Youri Ashton: was notified by a Linden that there was indeed a update and next week will be another likely
[16:11] Simon Linden: Keal - we try to update weekly
[16:11] Youri Ashton: I hear the one of this week was about pathfinding
[16:11] Simon Linden: That's all the news I have - Andrew, did you have anything else?
[16:11] Toysoldier Thor: (a major thunderstorm is rolling in here - in case i go poof)
[16:11] Youri Ashton: kk
[16:12] Andrew Linden: I've been working on the interestlist, when possible.
[16:12] Youri Ashton: dont poof for real though, kinda hurts ;)
[16:12] Motor Loon: (will someone please throw me a note with the first 7-8 mins I missed from being late today?)
[16:12] Youri Ashton: not much =)
[16:12] Andrew Linden: The idea behind my work is to first try to learn more about how it is actually working...
[16:13] Youri Ashton: came in a little later then planned myself, teleports are borked all day now for me
[16:13] TankMaster Finesmith: moto, it was just about hte PF release scedual
[16:13] Andrew Linden: and to look for possible fixes that can be made without breaking the existing protocol (and thus all existing viewers)
[16:13] Andrew Linden: I think I've identified some changes that will ammount to a modest improvement in CPU performance
[16:14] Andrew Linden: (maybe 5% less work in the interestlist stuff, not 5% improvement overall)
[16:14] Emma Krokus: that sounds good andrew
[16:14] Andrew Linden: and lower bandwidth (dunno how much yet)
[16:14] Fenix Eldritch: mmmm delicious bandwidth
[16:14] Andrew Linden: measureably lower, but I haven't actually measured it yet
[16:14] Ardy Lay: What is the shape of the volume of interest?
[16:15] Youri Ashton: please do measure it for us =)
[16:15] Andrew Linden: I'm also looking for ways to make the data come down more correctly (in correct order)
[16:15] Andrew Linden: but haven't done any work in that regard yet.
[16:15] Andrew Linden: The final bit of this work is to try to see whether we should rewrite the whole thing or not.
[16:15] TankMaster Finesmith: andrew, theres upciming server changes thats going to brake all exsisting viewers anyway, might not hurt to do a good cleen upgrade of the intrest list then
[16:16] Andrew Linden: But, I hope to have something I can put up for test in a week or so.
[16:16] Andrew Linden: TankMaster, what are those changes?
[16:16] TankMaster Finesmith: some of it is the server side baking
[16:16] Andrew Linden: oh right, for the avatar appearance
[16:17] TankMaster Finesmith: monty is working on changing the network protocals to be more effecent
[16:17] Sonya Haight: sorry if you got that twice Motor
[16:17] Andrew Linden: I don't think we could rewrite the interestlist in time to catch that train.
[16:17] TankMaster Finesmith: which will change how the viewer communicates with the servers
[16:17] Motor Loon: I got logs now thanks
[16:18] TankMaster Finesmith: eventually LL will actually use keepalive on the servers! :P
[16:18] Youri Ashton: hey cheesey
[16:18] Andrew Linden: That's all the news I've got.
[16:18] Cheesey Linden: back
[16:18] Gramma Fiddlesticks: Oh Lordy Tank! Not looking forward to breaking viewers. =\
[16:18] Simon Linden: I'm pretty sure Monty's changes are just with the way http is handled, not the udp messaging the interest list invokes
[16:18] Emma Krokus: wb
[16:19] TankMaster Finesmith: lol gramma, yeah, its going to be 'fun'
[16:19] Simon Linden: It's great work, and we want to eventually use it in the simulator as well
[16:19] Baker Linden: I'm almost finished with the server side fix for large group management. I'm hoping that the changes I've made will also be compatible with legacy viewers (they -should- be). If the data changes, I'll make sure to hit up a TPV user group before it goes live to let them add the necessary changes to their group UI windows. With my own tests, I've managed to successfully get data for the largest group on aditi (~40k users) without problems. It takes a couple minutes the first time you do the query, but after that it takes around 3-5 seconds.
[16:19] TankMaster Finesmith: more things will use HTTP, simon
[16:19] TankMaster Finesmith: and they will use HTTP more effecently
[16:19] Emma Krokus: no more kicking group chat! i look forward to that:)
[16:20] Gramma Fiddlesticks thinks she just might have to give Baker extra cookies for that work!
[16:20] TankMaster Finesmith: the first round of work which is purly viewer side, had already signifagtly improved texture fetching
[16:20] Andrew Linden: The table is open.
[16:20] Sweet Valentine: ohh I like that baker ty
[16:20] Fenix Eldritch: Awesome. Will we still be able to poll member's last login date? I recall reading a transcript that said that was possibly going to change..
[16:20] Toysoldier Thor: are we following the agenda items?
[16:20] Toysoldier Thor: or how does this work simon
[16:21] Motor Loon: Oh a little follow up question about the promotion of magnum.... once PF is rolled onto mainchannel - will there be PF code on the other RC's too? or will we still have to wait some time before it's full-grid ?
[16:21] Simon Linden: They will get it on Wednesday, Motor
[16:22] Andrew Linden: Toysoldier, that agenda is old. We don't really maintain an agenda for this meeting.
[16:22] Andrew Linden: I'll have to clean up that wiki page.
[16:22] Motor Loon: so wednesday we could be looking at a fullgrid "fix" for all the trouble there's been going on with mesh vehicles lately
[16:22] Toysoldier Thor: so this UG group description says its the place for residents to propose new ideas for LL to consider.....
[16:22] Toysoldier Thor: ok well then...
[16:22] Toysoldier Thor: As such, I have formally proposed a new grid-wide service - a much needed long overdue enhancement to the LM function in SL. It is the concept of VIRTUAL LANDMARKS (VLM) and the VLM-Mapping Service (VLM-MS). I have taken the time to write a detailed JIRA on the concept : https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-8082
[16:22] JIRA-helper: [#SVC-8082] Proposed Global Service for SL: VIRTUAL LANDMARKS & VLM Mapping Services
[16:22] Toysoldier Thor: I have also started socializing the idea and basically it has got almost unanimous thumbs up - especially from the Merchant community. I would formally like LL to review the concept and consider it for future development.
[16:23] Emma Krokus: it seems an extremely good idea :)
[16:23] Sweet Valentine: I second that motion
[16:23] Andrew Linden: We used to have a Scripting User Group, but it overlapped a lot with this one, and we don't have a team working on the script engine at the moment, so we just address script discussions here.
[16:23] Baker Linden: I ended up changing the way that works, from when I said that. I'm hoping I can get that data sent across with everything else. The biggest change I'll be making will be instead of sending all 40k users at once, I'll be sending groups of members to the viewer. It will make sorting more difficult, as you may get 40 "groups" of 1k members each (for example)
[16:23] Snickers Snook: And speaking as a shop owner who is about to be displaced due to yet another SIM being sold or closed, I fully support Toy's idea. It's brilliant in fact.
[16:23] Toysoldier Thor: the pain i am going through now with my move of my store and art gallery to a new sim is the same pain countless other merchants, club owners, venue management have to deal with... VLMs would solve that
[16:24] Fenix Eldritch: ah
[16:24] Andrew Linden opens the virtual landmarks jira issue...
[16:24] Simon Linden: I see - so one level of indirection on landmarks
[16:25] Simon Linden: Essentially a grid-wide address book
[16:25] Baker Linden: this way, we also don't push upwards of 5MB through UDP. Actually, the way the data is formatted, there will be changes (I'll make sure legacy viewers get the data the way they're used to)
[16:25] Qie Niangao: Hmm. I never use landmarks. But maybe that's because of what this would fix.
[16:25] Toysoldier Thor: the concept is very simple - a model of virtualizing LM's in the same way that a DN uses host names to virtualize IP addresses or a Lad balancer virtualizes physical IP addresses
[16:25] Emma Krokus: im glad toy knows all this techy stuff
[16:25] Ardy Lay: Do the landmark inventory items really have assets behind them? Didn't think there was enough to them to need that.
[16:25] TankMaster Finesmith: why not send the list over http?
[16:25] Sonya Haight: Qie thats what I've been doing, stripping old incorrect LM's out of items and not replacing them
[16:26] Simon Linden: I understand the usage case ... you have a LM to a club, now it works until the club moves
[16:26] Snickers Snook: This could be something you put in your profile
[16:26] Toysoldier Thor: merchants now avoid LMs in products and as promotions because of the current limitation of LM's
[16:26] Emma Krokus: major hassle when you have stuff on marketplace or in your store...
[16:26] Toysoldier Thor: yess
[16:27] Baker Linden: It may move to that, but right now I have a UDP connection that transfers the data.
[16:27] Toysoldier Thor: my store is moving now.... to a new sim.... i have lost 1000's of LMs
[16:27] Toysoldier Thor: because i have moved
[16:27] Sweet Valentine: I have almost 6000 items on MP I have to change LM in cus I just moved again
[16:27] TankMaster Finesmith: ok
[16:27] Snickers Snook: If you have 200+ products, you don't want to bundle LMs with them any more due to so many sim changes
[16:27] Sweet Valentine: gonna take me a year to do
[16:27] Toysoldier Thor: if a mall or club wants to renovate - and move an LM temporarily they cant
[16:28] Toysoldier Thor: not without tons of LMs pointing to the old location
[16:28] Snickers Snook: Especially since the SLM forces you in Direct Delivery to update the whole item. You can't just replace the LM.
[16:28] Toysoldier Thor: if LL would create a VLM model then we could hide the physical asset of the LM behind a virtual LM that can be changed from a web interface
[16:28] Qie Niangao: oh, hmmm... haven't read it carefully, but: Is there a way for Marketplace in-world links to reference through the VLMs?
[16:29] Toysoldier Thor: i would think so
[16:29] Toysoldier Thor: why can VLM's be made universal
[16:29] Andrew Linden: I'll have to study the VLM proposal more carefully later, but I think I get the gist.
[16:29] Toysoldier Thor: thanks muchly
[16:29] Emma Krokus: yes thank you!
[16:29] Toysoldier Thor: u wold make a TON of Merchants VERYYYY HAPPY
[16:29] Sweet Valentine: yes thanks you !
[16:29] Andrew Linden: Can anyone think of how the VLM system might be used as a greif tool?
[16:29] Sweet Valentine: I won't call you names for a whole year if you make VLM's hehehe
[16:30] Toysoldier Thor: i thought of that in the initial proposal...
[16:30] Toysoldier Thor: the creator controls the creation of a VLM
[16:30] Toysoldier Thor: from the VLM-MS
[16:30] Toysoldier Thor: sooo i cant see it being greifed unless teh VLM-MS service got griefed
[16:30] Andrew Linden: And the creator maintains the VLM, right?
[16:30] Gramma Fiddlesticks: Andrew, griefers are life theifs. You can't stop a really determined one anyway.
[16:30] Toysoldier Thor: yes
[16:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[16:31] Toysoldier Thor: and all others are copies of the master VLM asset
[16:31] Andrew Linden: So, would a creator of a popular LVM ever be incentivized to repoint it to a malicious location?
[16:31] Toysoldier Thor: i do not know the internal details of how LMs work - that is where LL developrs need to think it through
[16:31] Ruca Aged Whisky (wear to drink) whispers: watch that third sip
[16:32] Toysoldier Thor: the VLM is control from the www.secondlife.com web page
[16:32] Andrew Linden: Probably not... although if a popular LVM were somehow hijacked... that might cause some grief beyond that of the creator.
[16:32] Toysoldier Thor: i would go there and create a new VLM with its mappings
[16:32] Toysoldier Thor: the resulting VLM asset is just a pointer to that entry
[16:32] Toysoldier Thor: like DNS
[16:33] Andrew Linden: I could see a niche market rising up... "Sally's pick of the week VLM" which moves around all the time.
[16:33] Qie Niangao: oh... need to think about whether script functions that operate on LMs should also know about LVMs... like the new llTeleportAgent stuff, and llRequestInventoryData
[16:33] Cheesey Linden: dns is a good analogy
[16:33] Toysoldier Thor: here is a cool idea of the VLM idea - you can have the VLM entry have backup and round robining LMs
[16:34] Toysoldier Thor: so that if a primary LM is dead the VLM will offer the requester the backup LM
[16:34] Andrew Linden: Right, for load balancing your gateways to something interesting.
[16:34] Toysoldier Thor: or for a club the VLM will round robin LMs at different spots around the club so visitors dont land on each other at the start of a big event
[16:34] Simon Linden: I'd love it if we had that kind of traffic problems :)
[16:35] Emma Krokus has frequently landed on peoples heads
[16:35] Toysoldier Thor: u need to go to a lot of live singer events - it happens a lot
[16:35] Sweet Valentine: yeha its why im so short
[16:35] Gramma Fiddlesticks lands on peoples heads alla time.
[16:35] Emma Krokus giggles
[16:35] Toysoldier Thor: last weekend i was at a 1 hour event with 98 ppl at it
[16:35] Snickers Snook: lol Miss
[16:35] Sonya Haight: yeah and you can't get off their head until they move sometimes, just bouncing your tummy on their head
[16:35] Bonadea Avedon: or send out a notice for a freebie it rains ppl
[16:36] Snickers Snook: Well set landing points cause most of that
[16:36] Toysoldier Thor: anyway - i would be available for any linden that wants to ask further questions on the details... i developed diagrams for the concpet of VLMs too
[16:36] Toysoldier Thor: its in the jira
[16:36] Andrew Linden: Well Toysoldier it looks like a pretty good idea to me.
[16:36] Cheesey Linden: agreed
[16:37] Emma Krokus: as a merchant i would absolutely love something like this:)
[16:37] Sweet Valentine: bakers drinkin on da job =O
[16:37] Andrew Linden: I'll kick the idea around with some other Lindens. Or maybe Cheesey could do that for us.
[16:37] Toysoldier Thor: and its not rocket science as its a commonly used concept in the industry - anddd it can be put in place without disrupting the LMs
[16:37] Nalates Urriah: Does it have a JIRA number or is this still just a proposal?
[16:37] Toysoldier Thor: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-8082
[16:37] Cheesey Linden: i get to kick something!
[16:37] JIRA-helper: [#SVC-8082] Proposed Global Service for SL: VIRTUAL LANDMARKS & VLM Mapping Services
[16:37] Cheesey Linden: yay
[16:37] Nalates Urriah: thx
[16:37] Emma Krokus: :)
[16:37] Andrew Linden: It is a proposal and it has a public jira number.
[16:38] Baker Linden: It's only Whisky. That's like my power-juice
[16:38] Dahlia Trimble puts on shin guards just in case Cheesy gets excited...
[16:38] Toysoldier Thor: thank you Lindens! Us Merchants and Club owners would love u for this
[16:38] Cheesey Linden: i have no legs
[16:38] Cheesey Linden kicks
[16:38] Dahlia Trimble: oh oops :)
[16:38] Sweet Valentine: yess we will love you ...heheeee really we will!!
[16:39] Gramma Fiddlesticks passes Cheesey a roll aroudn cart.
[16:39] Toysoldier Thor: the rest of my arguments and details for the solution are in the jira
[16:39] Emma Krokus loves the lindens already but will love them even more
[16:39] Youri Ashton: skap some cheese around then cheesey xD
[16:39] Youri Ashton: slap***
[16:39] Andrew Linden: Do "picks" still work on resident profiles?
[16:39] Andrew Linden goes to look...
[16:39] Sonya Haight: yes
[16:39] Emma Krokus: they do for me
[16:39] Ardy Lay: I have some set
[16:39] Gramma Fiddlesticks: they do Andrew
[16:39] Sweet Valentine: yes but we don't have enough of them
[16:40] Qie Niangao: depending on privacy settings
[16:40] Emma Krokus: thats how i find current shop locations
[16:40] Emma Krokus: but its hassly
[16:40] Sonya Haight: Picks are very useful
[16:40] Youri Ashton: there are people reporting errors on web tab
[16:40] Snickers Snook: I look at picks for creators all the time to find their stores
[16:40] Sonya Haight: me too Snickers
[16:40] Gramma Fiddlesticks: as do I. =)
[16:40] Sweet Valentine: I used classifieds tab to find stores
[16:40] Sonya Haight: not everyone has classifieds
[16:41] Youri Ashton: reports are error messages and failed loadings of web pages
[16:41] Sweet Valentine: I know I dunno why
[16:41] Dahlia Trimble: picks never work for me, I usually get a locked profile and I never stay logged in when I log in to the web page
[16:41] Andrew Linden: A VLM could follow a pick, I suppose.
[16:41] Motor Loon: seems like an easy solution
[16:41] Emma Krokus: picks are like a backup for where lm's fail...
[16:41] Sonya Haight: a lot dropped their classifieds when things went bad for a while in search.
[16:41] Andrew Linden: What is the number limit of picks? Ten?
[16:42] Bonadea Avedon: sorry to interupt but i gotta run
[16:42] Emma Krokus: yes 10
[16:42] Andrew Linden: ok thanks
[16:42] Sweet Valentine: yes 10 I think we need like 20
[16:42] Youri Ashton: some residents during OZ Linden's OH were talking about the errors on web tab in profile window
[16:42] Motor Loon: mabye time to raise that limit a little too eh?
[16:42] Toysoldier Thor: A VLM is just like a LM but the VLM will ask the VLM-MS what LM coordinate to use
[16:42] Toysoldier Thor: so its like the VLM will now do a DNS query
[16:42] Sweet Valentine: see ya Bon tc
[16:42] Toysoldier Thor: once it gets it - it works just like an LM
[16:42] Youri Ashton: Oz mentioned it could be a viewer issues
[16:43] Dahlia Trimble: seems to work better on windows than on linux
[16:43] Toysoldier Thor: there would be a need to update code to support the VLM's need to ask the VLM-MS for the coordinate
[16:44] Toysoldier Thor: LMs dont need to do that since they already hard coded the corrdinate
[16:44] Toysoldier Thor: VLMs are like DNS host name and LMs are like the IP address
[16:46] Toysoldier Thor: what would be interesting is if VLM entries could be referenced outside the grid (like in the Marketplace store field) - i dont know that
[16:46] Andrew Linden: Should groups be able to create/own VLM's? or residents only?
[16:46] Toysoldier Thor: i would say residents only but that is a design detail
[16:46] Gramma Fiddlesticks: Groups need them too!
[16:46] Toysoldier Thor: a case could be made for both
[16:46] Emma Krokus: couldnt their owners or officers do it gramma?
[16:47] TankMaster Finesmith: some groups would use them
[16:47] Gramma Fiddlesticks: they could.
[16:47] Toysoldier Thor: a large store operation could benefit from group management of a VLM
[16:47] Toysoldier Thor: where officers could manage the VLM entries
[16:47] Gramma Fiddlesticks agrees with Toy
[16:48] Toysoldier Thor: i will admit i have not worked otu all the details since i only came up with the idea 5 days ago
[16:48] Andrew Linden: Yeah, group ownership is a detail, and could be done after a per-resident implementation.
[16:48] Toysoldier Thor: well maybe a lil longer back
[16:48] Qie Niangao: yeah, VLMs for group-owned destinations would ideally be managed by group officers. (in case any one owner disappears)
[16:49] Toysoldier Thor: yess and andrew.... u could consider limiting the number of VLMs that any resident could create (like a maximum of 5 for Guests and 10 for premium accounts and 25 for groups
[16:49] Ardy Lay: Might take a look at how adding an event to the calendar works.
[16:50] Ardy Lay: Something about land roles, I think.
[16:50] Gramma Fiddlesticks: A good thought there Ardy!
[16:50] Andrew Linden: What if ResidentA creates a VLM to ResidentB's land, and ResidentB objects... should there be a way for ResidentB to prevent the linkage?
[16:50] Qie Niangao: ooo
[16:50] Ardy Lay: Can't prevent LM creation now, can we?
[16:50] Snickers Snook: Why? A can always make a landmark to B.
[16:50] Andrew Linden: No, but the VLM concept has more power.
[16:50] Toysoldier Thor: this would be the ssame as if Res A had the LM for Res B's land and gave it out to everyone
[16:51] Emma Krokus: vlm would actually give the resident a way to object!
[16:51] Gramma Fiddlesticks: that opens another whole can or worms.
[16:51] Gramma Fiddlesticks: *of worms
[16:51] Toysoldier Thor: yess - Res B could get a quick stop to a problem by having LL delete the entry
[16:51] TankMaster Finesmith: what kind of worms?
[16:51] Dahlia Trimble: need to be able to VLM other's land for shops in malls
[16:51] Youri Ashton: there should be a way to stop linkage i'd say
[16:51] Qie Niangao: well, it's a weird kind of griefer thing... resident A builds up a whole bunch of Gorean traffic, then reroutes it all to the Brony sim
[16:52] Gramma Fiddlesticks: stop or no stop Tank.
[16:52] Andrew Linden: Suppose a group of vigilantes subscribed to a popular VLM that would be updated to a new victim every couple days.
[16:52] Emma Krokus: much more eaesily stopped if its based on vlm than current lm's
[16:52] TankMaster Finesmith: n/m
[16:52] Toysoldier Thor: yes that is true
[16:52] Andrew Linden: Bascially an easy "Pick on this guy everyone!" system.
[16:52] TankMaster Finesmith just want to know what kind of worms were in the cans
[16:52] Toysoldier Thor: gathering of a quick hord somehow
[16:52] TankMaster Finesmith wats to go fishing!
[16:53] TankMaster Finesmith: :P
[16:53] Youri Ashton: if you can not decline linkage, you end up most likely with a new form of griefing, so best to prefend that from happening
[16:53] Gramma Fiddlesticks has been stalked and harrased in the past. Don't want to make it any easier for someone to do that again. =\
[16:53] Toysoldier Thor: but that is where TOS and AR for abuse of the VLM would ban the abuser
[16:53] Andrew Linden: TankMaster, are you trying to channel Arwan today?
[16:53] Toysoldier Thor: the owner of the VLM would be banned
[16:53] Cheesey Linden: to keep with the internet analogy it's like a DoS attack
[16:53] Toysoldier Thor: yup
[16:53] Toysoldier Thor: its like a DOS attack
[16:53] Sonya Haight: we do have a mob mentality about some things
[16:53] Toysoldier Thor: sorta
[16:54] Toysoldier Thor: a DOS of thugs
[16:54] Andrew Linden: well... a distributed attack sure, but DoS?
[16:54] TankMaster Finesmith: lol andrew, not really
[16:54] Andrew Linden: I suppose it could be used as DoS
[16:54] Youri Ashton: even more reason to allow people to decline linkage
[16:54] Cheesey Linden: i meant in the way that a lot of possibly unwanted traffic would be directed to you
[16:54] Andrew Linden: to crowd a vendor with people who are not buying
[16:54] Andrew Linden: and thereby prevent the buyers from getting in
[16:54] Ardy Lay: SLURLs in group notices are used to flash-mob victims now.
[16:54] Andrew Linden: Interesting Ardy. I hadn't heard about that.
[16:55] Ardy Lay: THey also share SLURLs on their web sites for that.
[16:55] Sonya Haight: we can do that easy enough now if we want to Andrew, post a link in a group and say free stolen stuff here and the place will fill up in seconds
[16:55] Toysoldier Thor: but think of the benefits too..... two clubs want to share a special event one night and have both their respective populations come to the same location... in a couple minutes they could have both VLMs going to the same club
[16:55] Youri Ashton: if you have a sim thats meant for theme A, you dont want the other adding theme B that may not even be compatible or causes grief in some form
[16:55] Andrew Linden: Right, and the VLM system would at least be under LL's maintenance, so we could takedown or modify them if necessary.
[16:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[16:56] Sweet Valentine: yep
[16:56] Snickers Snook: I think the benefits of a vlm far outweigh the drawbacks
[16:56] Andrew Linden: While the out of band SLURL's are beyon our control.
[16:56] Ardy Lay: We get flash-mobbed every time we end up on the popular places list in the destination guide.
[16:56] Toysoldier Thor: that is the bonus of the VLM-MS - LL has ultimate control
[16:56] Emma Krokus: absolutely
[16:56] Toysoldier Thor: they can delete the VLM entry and all the respective VLMs are dead instantly
[16:56] Snickers Snook: The drawbacks already exist with current SLURLs and regular LMs
[16:56] Youri Ashton: that could be a option andrew, yet no the whole solution
[16:56] Ardy Lay: Snickers, that's my point.
[16:57] Qie Niangao: route bad VLMs directly to The Corn Field
[16:57] Ardy Lay: It already happens in other ways.
[16:57] Toysoldier Thor: i would think the Lindes would have to do a full whiteboarding on the idea
[16:57] Emma Krokus: hahahaha qie:)
[16:57] Ardy Lay: Qie, heh
[16:57] Toysoldier Thor: to think this all thru
[16:57] Snickers Snook: lol, send them to Pooley
[16:57] Youri Ashton: cornfield is open to all, you can tp in and out atm
[16:57] Sweet Valentine: lol snickers
[16:57] Youri Ashton: lol
[16:57] Andrew Linden: really Youri?
[16:57] Sonya Haight: yes
[16:57] Youri Ashton: yes it sopen
[16:57] Ardy Lay: Where is that big volcano? ;-)
[16:57] Youri Ashton: its open*
[16:57] Youri Ashton: tried earlier this week
[16:57] Qie Niangao: there are... multiple The Corn Fields.
[16:57] Ardy Lay: 5
[16:57] Youri Ashton: i know
[16:58] Andrew Linden: hrm... I wonder if I accidentally let if open last time we went.
[16:58] Emma Krokus: hahha
[16:58] Sweet Valentine: send them to linden realms and let the zombies eats them
[16:58] Youri Ashton: could be, may be another linden
[16:58] Andrew Linden: I don't recall changing the access rules though... I was teleporting everyone in manually as I recall.
[16:58] Youri Ashton: still, it should be closed :p
[16:58] TankMaster Finesmith: theres 4 public ones
[16:58] Toysoldier Thor: well andrew and Cheesey - if you want more info or to question the idea - just IM me or post it in the Jira
[16:58] Sonya Haight: hmm I'm not finding it now, did you close it Andrew?
[16:58] Andrew Linden: Huh. Maybe I'll ask around.
[16:58] Emma Krokus: bad jail that everyone wants to get IN to
[16:59] Ardy Lay: I kinda wonder what the point of having it and keeping it closed is if it's no longer used as originally intended.
[16:59] Youri Ashton: lemme find the LM that I used
[16:59] Andrew Linden: They aren't as much fun if they're pulic ;-)
[16:59] Youri Ashton: ill send you Andrew
[16:59] Andrew Linden: public even
[16:59] Toysoldier Thor: i think VLMs would be a huge SL experience improvement to LMs
[16:59] Cheesey Linden: i wanna go!
[16:59] Emma Krokus: :D
[16:59] Youri Ashton: send cheesey to there :p
[16:59] Youri Ashton: just make sure to take his powers first! haha
[16:59] Cheesey Linden: send baker first
[16:59] Andrew Linden: Alas, I can't push people there. I can only pull.
[17:00] TankMaster Finesmith: aww
[17:00] Motor Loon: sounds like you need an upgrade on your god tools Andrew lol
[17:00] Dahlia Trimble: pull with an alt :)
[17:00] Sweet Valentine: I never been to the corn fields
[17:00] Toysoldier Thor: lol
[17:00] Toysoldier Thor: i have them all around me in RL
[17:00] Andrew Linden: Well Toysoldier, the VLM is an interesting proposal, so thanks.
[17:00] Youri Ashton: use that LM and you can tp in and out frfeely
[17:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[17:01] Emma Krokus: yes thanks toy:)
[17:01] Ardy Lay: Teleport to The Corn Field (128,128,2)
[17:01] Youri Ashton: darned laptop keyboard xD
[17:01] Toysoldier Thor: thanks for considering it andrew
[17:01] Andrew Linden: I'll try to bounce the idea around, and Cheesey may do so too, but come back sometime and remind us.
[17:01] Sweet Valentine: I must explore more
[17:01] Emma Krokus: yes thank you very much!
[17:01] Ardy Lay: That still work?
[17:01] TankMaster Finesmith: i still think the tractor should be drivable :P
[17:01] Youri Ashton: need me to send the Lm to cheesey as well?
[17:02] Ardy Lay: Yeah, the link works but the region is not open to me.
[17:02] Sonya Haight: maybe after pathfinding TankMaster
[17:02] Cheesey Linden: i saw the link, but i'm scared to click it
[17:02] Ardy Lay: Hehe
[17:02] Youri Ashton: try that one
[17:02] Dahlia Trimble: there's no mice there Cheesey :)
[17:02] Emma Krokus: hahahahaha
[17:02] Youri Ashton: ardy, you want to try the LM as well?
[17:02] Cheesey Linden: if its a giant corn field there must be field mice
[17:02] Youri Ashton: only rats :p
[17:02] Motor Loon: "In the corn field, no one can hear you scream"
[17:02] TankMaster Finesmith: PF wont change the script thats disallowing no owners to driver it
[17:02] TankMaster Finesmith: non*
[17:03] Cheesey Linden: plus i saw children of the corn
[17:03] Sweet Valentine: can I eat the corn?
[17:03] TankMaster Finesmith: drive*
[17:03] Dahlia Trimble: ya but field mice eat the corn
[17:03] Andrew Linden: ok thanks for coming everyone
[17:03] Cheesey Linden: yes, thanks everyone!
[17:03] Toysoldier Thor: is this cornfield really that cool?
[17:03] Youri Ashton: only seen rats, ghosts and other creepies
[17:03] Emma Krokus: lets find out!
[17:03] Sweet Valentine: Thank you Lindens
[17:03] Toysoldier Thor: ok thanks again,,,
[17:03] Sonya Haight: no but you might be able to talk them into making it drivable for testing it across sim boundaries
[17:03] Gramma Fiddlesticks: Thanks for the meeting Lindens.
[17:03] RINOBIT Footman: thank you Andrew
[17:03] Youri Ashton: if you can get out, cool
[17:03] Andrew Linden: The cornfield is only cool about once or twice a year.
[17:03] Youri Ashton: else its only fun with others
[17:04] Emma Krokus: thank you lindens and nicto meet everyone:)
[17:04] Ardy Lay: THere
[17:04] Toysoldier Thor: i dont have access to that LM
[17:04] Toysoldier Thor: hehehe
[17:04] Sonya Haight: the cornfield came to us
[17:04] Gramma Fiddlesticks: oops
[17:04] Fenix Eldritch: Oh no! It's escaped!
[17:04] Qie Niangao: Thanks Lindens and everyone... have fun!
[17:04] Andrew Linden: ha!
[17:04] Snickers Snook: TY Lindens
[17:04] Toysoldier Thor: wow
[17:04] Cheesey Linden: uh oh
[17:04] Toysoldier Thor: lol
[17:04] Baker Linden: CORN
[17:04] Simon Linden: oh nice, a new crop
[17:04] Ardy Lay: The Corn Field is full of this stuff.
[17:04] Emma Krokus: hahahahaha
[17:04] Toysoldier Thor: rofl i am having scary movie thoughts now
[17:04] Emma Krokus: cool texture:)
[17:04] Qie Niangao: jeez. Where's my ethanol plant when I need it?
[17:04] Toysoldier Thor: Children of teh corn
[17:05] Cheesey Linden: simon, i love what you've done with the place
[17:05] Toysoldier Thor: i hate to run everyone... but a live concert is calling me
[17:05] Snickers Snook: Avatars of the Corn
[17:05] Ardy Lay sets it temp
[17:05] Toysoldier Thor: waves to all !!!
[17:05] TankMaster Finesmith: have a grate weekend, everyone
[17:05] Baker Linden: Thanks for showing up everyone, have a great weekend! See you all on Tuesday!
[17:05] Gramma Fiddlesticks: off to worknow. Bye everyone
[17:05] Emma Krokus: thank you!
[17:05] Youri Ashton: thanks for having us lindens
[17:05] Simon Linden: Thanks everyone for the good conversation
[17:05] Emma Krokus: bye bye :)
[17:05] Ardy Lay: Bye
[17:06] Youri Ashton: give the teleporters a poke for me
[17:06] Youri Ashton: darned things refuse me to tele most of the time
[17:06] Nalates Urriah: More corn here than in the midwest
Simulator_User_Group
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