User Experience Interest Group/Transcripts/2009-09-03

== Topic ==
User Experience Interest Group Discussion for September 03, 2009.
Topic: Multigrid / Intergrid Usability.
“Over the past several years, a many third-party OpenSim grids have
come online, offering metaverse users some alternatives to the main
Second Life grid. Yet, the Second Life user experience has evolved
with the assumption that there is only one grid that users will
connect to, so not much consideration has been given to the needs and
issues that affect users in a multigrid metaverse.
“This week, we'll be focusing on the usability issues and challenges
that surround the multigrid scenario. This won't be a technical
discussion, but rather a look at things from the user's perspectives.
What expectations will users have about what they will be able to do,
and how things should behave? What parts of the current user
experience need to be adjusted to fit this scenario? What changes
should Linden Lab and/or the OpenSim grid operators make to ensure the
experience is as smooth as possible for users?”
== Summary ==
*Two specific features that are essential for usability in a multigrid scenario:
** Grid login manager (to manage a list of available grids and accounts)
** Ability to log out or change grids without restarting the viewer.
** Note: both of these features are available in the Meerkat viewer and some others.
*Users will likely have some expectations that may be infeasible to satisfy, for technical or legal reasons:
** Ability to retain your current avatar appearance when visiting another grid.
** Ability to access and use your inventory items when visiting another grid.
** These are difficult issues, because the user may not have the creator's permission to export an item to another grid.
** If the issues can't be resolved, the expectation should be addressed, e.g. by providing notices and explanations to the user.
*There might some day be intergrid landmarks for teleporting to locations on other grids.
** For landmarks to "compatible" grids, where the user will be able to retain their identity and inventory, it might be desirable to make the landmarks look and behave the same as normal landmarks, for user experience consistency.
** But, landmarks to "incompatible" grids should definitely look and behave differently, to avoid confusing the user.
*If some inventory items are available on multiple grids, there are additional usability issues that arise.
** Not all assets in a user's inventory will necessarily come from the same asset provider, so some may not be available on certain grids, while others would be. This has the potential to confuse the user.
** For example, they may think that they lost or deleted an item, if it completely disappears when not available. So, it may be better to show the item even when it's not available.
** However, this could frustrate the user, because they would not know at a glance whether an item was available or not. Some sort of indicator of availability (e.g. graying out unavailable items) would be important. But, this could significantly increase asset server load (consider: checking availability of tens of thousands of items per user!).
** A simpler system could be to have separate top-level folders in inventory for each grid / asset provider. But, this is a crude solution, and would significantly constrain the user's ability to arrange their inventory to their liking.
** Other types of indicators or filters may provide good usability, while also being feasible to implement.
(Note: See the extra discussion section for an after-discussion about .)
== Links ==
* Cable Beach Core login protocol
* - Magical scripted HUD/UI
* - Viewer crashes immediately on changing screen mode (Linux)
* - Viewer crashes immediately on altering Prefs->UI Size and pressing Apply (Linux)
== Transcript ==
[15:09]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Let's get started
[15:09]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Today's topic is Multigrid / Intergrid Usability
[15:10]	Jacek Antonelli: 	That is, usability issues related to a scenario where users routinely connect to multiple, separate grids (SL and/or OpenSims)
[15:10]	Charlette Proto: 	wish i had tried a TP to OSGrid (on Meerkat) but couldn't face my Ruth avie there
[15:10]	Jacek Antonelli: 	We're not going to go into technical details, but rather discuss and think about it from a user's perspective
[15:10]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I can give you a copy of my orange kitty avvie if you want.
[15:11]	Jacek Antonelli: 	What expectations will users have about what they will be able to do, and how things should behave?
[15:11]	Charlette Proto: 	OSGrid Charlette is very undercooked
[15:11]	Jacek Antonelli: 	What parts of the current user experience need to be adjusted to fit this scenario?
[15:11]	Jacek Antonelli: 	What changes should Linden Lab and/or the OpenSim grid operators make to ensure the experience is as smooth as possible for users?
[15:11]	Jacek Antonelli: 	That's the topic. Discuss. ^_^
[15:11]	Robin Cornelius: 	some kind of grid log in manager is essential
[15:11]	Charlette Proto: 	well the inventory limitations openness would be the first thing
[15:12]	Charlette Proto: 	sharing the same cache???
[15:12]	Geneko Nemeth: 	At least avatar should be able to migrate.
[15:12]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I agree. Meerkat and Hippo viewers have decent systems for managing multiple grids. And meerkat has some nice cross-grid teleporting
[15:12]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Tech: two crashes within the hour on your snowglobe-trunk, which probably means someone here who was also at Rob's is wearing something that triggers it. Not happened before
[15:12]	Geneko Nemeth isn't on trunk but also crashed during the meeting. 	Geneko Nemeth isn't on trunk but also crashed during the meeting.
[15:13]	Charlette Proto: 	the user can TP intergrid, but the avie presents lots of problems
[15:13]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Oh, I had to fix an openjpeg bug. I was crashing also.
[15:13]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Rsync'ing your overlay
[15:13]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Geneko: Yes, that's a good point. I think users would expect that if they move from one grid to another, their avatar should retain its appearance. Or at least, that should be an available option for them.
[15:14]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Tech: no changes
[15:14]	Jacek Antonelli: 	They might want separate appearances. Say, if there was a Fantasy RPG grid where you have some cool armor, you'd want to look different than a business grid where you wear a suit and tie.
[15:14]	Charlette Proto: 	precisely
[15:14]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	I've been using the patch at SNOW-129 for multi avatar and grids logins.
[15:14]	Mm Alder: 	Would it be enough to save in one world and load in another?
[15:14]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Mm: which was your Jira again please?
[15:14]	Charlette Proto: 	even if you buy new items on one grid one should be able to use them across grids (in the utopia of my mind)
[15:14]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Morgaine, the patch is in openjpeg libery on the system.
[15:15]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Tech: kk
[15:15]	Mm Alder: 	Well, if you don't get utopia, what is acceptable?
[15:15]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Hmm... yeah... might not want to be a flying penis in a suit when meeting the client...
[15:16]	Jacek Antonelli: 	There's a good point. Should users reasonably have the expectation that anything they buy in one world will transfer to the others? Ignoring technical and licensing details.
[15:16]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Might not for general items, but definitely for avatars.
[15:16]	Charlette Proto: 	well in LL view items on the asset server belong there alone not other grids Mm
[15:17]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Avatars and clothes. People will expect to TP to other worlds and be able to retain avs, and some of them will prefer not to arrive naked.
[15:17]	Charlette Proto: 	utopia for now is a metagrid existence of avatars regardless of LL or who else would store your inventory
[15:17]	Geneko Nemeth: 	They don't arrive naked, just very... ruthy with a bland shirt and red pants.
[15:17]	Mm Alder: 	Avatar appearance, if not attachments and skins, should be easily transferable.
[15:17]	Jacek Antonelli: 	With SL, you can connect to any sim, and still access your inventory. Would connecting to a different grid be different enough so that the expectation of accessing your stuff doesn't apply?
[15:18]	Teravus Ousley: 	For that to be a reality.. in a system.. like the web.. of hyperlinks.. that would need to be client side served, I think. Like.. A firefox plugin.. At the moment, I don't think it would be feasable to do that where the items are stored server side because of the trust requirement.
[15:18]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe Morgaine, for now they apparently do if the items aren't created by the av themselves
[15:18]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Shape doesn't really do much on its own. Skins and clothings can also be easily transferred, they are done at the client side.
[15:18]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	maybe people will be willing to pay more (or go open content) for avatars that will travel cross-grid with them
[15:19]	Teravus Ousley: 	the trust requirement means that all administrative domains must have a way to validate who they are.
[15:19]	Geneko Nemeth: 	It's us primtastic furries that get impacted the most.
[15:19]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Geneko: that's an implementation detail. A Ruth without clothes isn't naked in SL, but that's more a policy issue supporting puritans than a natural outcome of having no clothes.
[15:19]	Charlette Proto: 	besides these iteroperability of assets, we have some GUI issues too eg map TPs and a grid attribute for LMs
[15:19]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Geneko, only tell full mesh support comes out. :-)
[15:19]	Geneko Nemeth: 	But we're here to talk about details...
[15:20]	Teravus Ousley: 	user details.. right ㋡
[15:20]	Charlette Proto: 	yes Geneko, attachments would all come off and can't be legally copied to other grids
[15:20]	Mm Alder: 	Charlette what are the issues with TP? and what is LM?
[15:21]	Teravus Ousley: 	how about world consistancy?
[15:21]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay. So transferring inventory might not be feasible, but it's likely that the user would expect it, no? So there would need to be some explanation or indication that they won't be able to transfer some things
[15:21]	Charlette Proto: 	anyone know if the UUIDs would have to mapped or could they remain the same
[15:21]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Map, TP (teleport), and LM (landmark) are interesting issues, as well
[15:21]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Tera: consistency of what kind?
[15:22]	Geneko Nemeth: 	The simple fact that they don't have the same avatar is anvilicious enough for the propergation of the hint that "don't expect your stuff here".
[15:22]	Mm Alder: 	Jacek, what are the issues?
[15:22]	Charlette Proto: 	yeah the maps of other grids would have to pulled up
[15:22]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	didn't LL indicate that there would be an "allow criss-grid" object flag at some point?
[15:22]	Teravus Ousley: 	would you expect to see a user with the same name on another world and it was the same person?
[15:22]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Mm: Well, consider landmarks to other grids. Currently landmarks only point to sims on the same grid
[15:22]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Currently, yes.
[15:23]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	Snowglobe is only able to show the Agni map right now...
[15:23]	Charlette Proto: 	I have the same name on OSGrid, but this is nothing when the UUID behind it is different
[15:23]	Geneko Nemeth is not named Geneko Nemeth on OpenSim, though. 	Geneko Nemeth is not named Geneko Nemeth on OpenSim, though.
[15:23]	Mm Alder: 	Jacek, unless you can teleport directly, then the landmarks aren't useful.
[15:23]	Charlette Proto: 	the LMs would need to hold the grid (URI) attribute and be filtered for user convenience etc
[15:24]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Supposing that some day there are LMs to other grids, what are the user issues there? Should it look and act differently than a regular (intra-grid LM)? Or try to be the same, so that the transition betweet grids is transparent?
[15:24]	Geneko Nemeth: 	It depends if other parts of the grid is connectable.
[15:24]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	since it can't be transparent, there's no point in the UI trying to pretend it is
[15:24]	Teravus Ousley: 	on the map, would you expect to have a drop down of 'connected worlds' and switch between them as far as map display.. or would you expect them all to be on one map?
[15:24]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Tera: if you mean *name*, then I believe it was split into 3 parts in OGPX discussions: (i) a purely visible name that anyone can set, no limit, (ii) an absolute but human-readable identifier that was disambiguated with an @world suffix (because there are many John Smiths), and (iii) the login account name, which is entirely separate.
[15:25]	Charlette Proto: 	yes Jacek and sims have URLs so theoretically they are compatible
[15:25]	Mm Alder: 	If you can't keep inventory or even identity across grid, then landmarks don't mean much
[15:25]	Geneko Nemeth: 	For example between two grids where avatars and objects can commute and IMs can freely flow across I don't see why they can't look like grid-internal landmarks.
[15:26]	Charlette Proto: 	well Mm this is the main problem since LL think assets belong to them
[15:26]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Mm: the goal is to keep name if you want it, and to make inventories (plural) accessible where you want them.
[15:26]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Good point, Gen. Especially for something like a hypergrid, where the idea is to make multiple grids seem to become one
[15:26]	Charlette Proto: 	absolutely Jacek Gen
[15:27]	Charlette Proto: 	pretty much like sims are now
[15:27]	Jacek Antonelli: 	So do we have two distinct categories of intergrid landmarks? One for "compatible" grids, where you can keep your inventory and identity, and one for "incompatible" grids where you don't keep them?
[15:27]	Mm Alder: 	Maybe there needs to be a grid Confederation that allows transfer of inventory and identity as a condition of membership. LL, of course, wouldn't join. :-)
[15:27]	Teravus Ousley: 	to keep the terminology similar to the OGP/VWrap stuff.. you can use administrative domain in the place of grid.
[15:28]	Charlette Proto: 	point to point nav so long as LL would support the underlying asset and avatar verification
[15:28]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Even if LL would, the masses who do not know would stop them from joining in.
[15:29]	Charlette Proto: 	the LM etc issues all go back to the attribute based inventory filtering and display
[15:29]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Just in the Snowglobe meeting a bit earlier someone showed up and asked Ll to turn SL back into a properitary application so there won't be any more copyright infringements.
[15:29]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Note that *currently* OGP (which is now called VWRAP) is being designed to NOT provide interop between VWs as such. It only integrates regions and region domains. So you wouldn't be able to TP from OSgrid to SL nor viceversa. Only the regions or regions domains that integrate with SL would be able to TP, because they would become part of SL. It's very anti-interop with other worlds. But we're trying to change it.
[15:29]	Geneko Nemeth needs to sop using big words. 	Geneko Nemeth needs to sop using big words.
[15:29]	Mm Alder: 	Is connectivity to LL a must-have?
[15:30]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Morgaine: Isn't that how Hypergird works?
[15:30]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Not necessarily. We should also be considering opensim <--> opensim relationships between grids
[15:30]	Morgaine Dinova: 	So open grids are out of luck currently, unless they want to leave their Opensim grids and "join" SL in some sense ... although that's still being worked out.
[15:30]	Charlette Proto: 	MetaGrid may be the best way to name the 'above' grid functionallity
[15:31]	Teravus Ousley: 	Morgaine, while I agree that it is specifically for region domains, it doesn't say anything about requiring a region domain to be locked into it's VWRAP/OGPX connectiivity only.
[15:31]	Morgaine Dinova: 	It's all academic though, because Opensim will have its interop perfected long before OGP is even documented.
[15:31]	Teravus Ousley: 	the region domain wouldn't necessarily care so long as it had a valid user administrative domain.
[15:32]	Teravus Ousley: 	Pixel is working on an open source implementation of the Agent Domain
[15:32]	Charlette Proto: 	Teravus?
[15:32]	Thickbrick Sleaford hides from nomenclature nightmares 	Thickbrick Sleaford hides from nomenclature nightmares
[15:32]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Tera: there's a horrid word in OGP called "trust agreements". If the trust agreement is that you are not allowed to connect to an untrusted world, interop is toast. We'll have to see.
[15:33]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yeah, that AD is the one that Zha's been talking about for most of the year. Nice to have it coming at last.
[15:33]	Teravus Ousley: 	Those are real world contracts, yes. Those would be decided upon by party.. If you wanted to connect a region domain to the SecondLife Agent domain for example.. you'd need a license like that.
[15:33]	Charlette Proto: 	but would the 'trusted' cover safe/criminal etc bans for breaking the rules (TOS)
[15:33]	Morgaine Dinova: 	But let's stick to viewer-side stuff. I can go on about OGPX for weeks, and it's far too boring :P
[15:34]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Something like MetaBanLink might pop up.
[15:34]	Charlette Proto: 	yup UI needs a lot of issues defined
[15:34]	Mm Alder: 	OK, suppose that asset sharing never happens, is it worth making it easier to interact with other VWs?
[15:34]	Jacek Antonelli: 	There's an interesting usability issue here. If there's some sort of trust issue, it might be the case that you can access item X on grids A and B (because they trust each other), and item Y on grids B and C (because they trust each other).
[15:34]	Charlette Proto: 	eg filtering of grid limited assets
[15:34]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Mm: asset sharing will happen --- it's already happening. That part is a cert.
[15:35]	Teravus Ousley: 	Region domains are just region domains.. though.
[15:35]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yeah, RDs are not VWs
[15:35]	Jacek Antonelli: 	So your inventory might be fairly fluid, with items appearing or disappearing from your inventory depending on which grids you are connected to, and how much they trust each other.
[15:35]	Teravus Ousley: 	they don't really care for the most part where the assets come from so long as they know where the assets come from.
[15:35]	Geneko Nemeth: 	To log in, you need a Grid, a Location, a Name, and a Password.
[15:35]	Geneko Nemeth: 	...Kitty?
[15:35]	Morgaine Dinova nods 	Morgaine Dinova nods
[15:36]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Let's try to remain focused on user-oriented issues, please
[15:36]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Agree with Jacek
[15:36]	Charlette Proto: 	still there may be a need for mapping of REPLACEMENT assets when crossing grids if portability is not assured
[15:36]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	it's kind of sneaky, UI wise, to snatch things from the inventory as you TP. might be better to gray them out.
[15:36]	Charlette Proto: 	eg if this skin is locked to Second Life™ it is replaced by this one
[15:36]	Mm Alder: 	To log into many websites you need a userid and password, but those are saved as cookies so you don't notice. Can such a thing ve used for VWs?
[15:36]	Teravus Ousley: 	well, if avatar appearance persistance is the number one issue.. then the only way to assure that that happens.. is to keep a local copy of your avatar.
[15:37]	Jacek Antonelli: 	That's what I was thinking, Thickbrick. Maybe gray them out and have a little note like "This item is unavailable on this grid", and maybe a brief explanation why
[15:37]	Geneko Nemeth: 	That doesn't work unless you run the simulator local.
[15:37]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Re assets in the viewer, the inventory displayed to the user is going to have to be a COMPOSITE of the inventories from various worlds and asset providers.
[15:37]	Charlette Proto: 	and filtered Morgaine
[15:38]	Mm Alder: 	Morgaine, that sounds like a UI nightmare.
[15:38]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	so if you have a list of greyed out items, you can have a priority replacement list for important items (skin, shape, etc.)
[15:38]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Right, Morgaine. But it would need to reflect which assets are currently available, or it would confuse the user
[15:38]	Charlette Proto: 	another attribute on asset needs to be visible at least
[15:38]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Mm: an implementation nightmare, not a UI nightmare
[15:38]	Charlette Proto: 	greyed out hehe
[15:38]	Mm Alder: 	A usability nightmare.
[15:38]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Not a nightmare. A "challenge". ;)
[15:38]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hehehe
[15:38]	Charlette Proto: 	nightmare is really a dream
[15:38]	Charlette Proto: 	haha
[15:39]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Not much a challenge, it would be pretty nifty if it looks like equipment slots in games.
[15:39]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Geneko: elaborate, please?
[15:39]	Charlette Proto: 	this is back to additional fields (data) visible in the inventory
[15:39]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I'm not sure what you mean
[15:40]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	the challenge is keeping the list of known inventory items from grids you're not connected to now, and might haven't been on in a while.
[15:40]	Teravus Ousley: 	like 'bags' in world of warcraft?
[15:40]	Morgaine Dinova: 	It's really not a nightmare at all for anyone used to Unix. Our directories commonly contain things we can read, or write, or execute, and things we can't.
[15:40]	Teravus Ousley: 	or like when you have multiple e-mail accounts in OutLook?
[15:40]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Hmm... you have a bunch of squares that display item previews of bodyparts you're wearing, and when you click on one of them a list of replacements pop up.
[15:40]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Bags might be better metaphor though.
[15:41]	Charlette Proto: 	Thick I think the asset servers could be accessed live so long as the viewer knows all axie IDs etc
[15:41]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hrm, okay Geneko. That's a viable UI representation for things you're wearing. But think about the whole inventory, with potentially tens of thousands of items per grid.
[15:41]	Morgaine Dinova: 	My guess is that the inventory that the user sees won't be much differenet to today's, but just different under the hood.
[15:41]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Top level folders by asset provider, and a library view that groups similar stuff.
[15:41]	Jacek Antonelli: 	How can we communicate to the user that some items are available on some grids, but not others?
[15:42]	Mm Alder: 	Why would I want to see names of things I can't access?
[15:42]	Teravus Ousley: 	You would want to see them to know that you havn't lost them.
[15:42]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	create a concenpt of "default avatar" that you can configure with a list of priorities replacemtns
[15:42]	Charlette Proto: 	Meercat has a database of Avatar, URL, Username, Password etc and a [Change] button
[15:42]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Mm: Because otherwise, things would be appearing and disappearing from your inventory as you moved around. There'd be a lot of "WTF did my skin go?"
[15:42]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Nah, you can't classify by asset provider. You might have a cube with textures on its faces from 6 different asset providers.
[15:42]	Robin Cornelius: 	that might work for 1 or 2 things but 10,000 things i can't access on another grid would be clutter, unless there was a seperate inventory view for other grids orunavaiable assets
[15:43]	McCabe Maxsted: 	ahoy
[15:43]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hey McCabe
[15:43]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Ahoy McCabe!
[15:43]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Fair point, Robin
[15:43]	McCabe Maxsted: 	sorry for being late, post office couldn't find my package
[15:43]	Charlette Proto: 	Jacek that is why I mentioned a need for replacement mapping as well
[15:43]	Charlette Proto: 	this skin is replaced by this one or default
[15:43]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Some faces might just be blank when rezzed in a grid where the textures are inaccessible then.
[15:43]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Replacement mappings won;t work except as an exception. Most things have no replacement.
[15:44]	Jacek Antonelli: 	So, showing thousands of useless items is clutter, but not showing items from other grids could confuse the user into thinking they have lost things. How do we reconcile these issues?
[15:44]	Charlette Proto: 	but one could have their own equivalents or copies if UUIDs are not the same
[15:45]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I don't think it needs reconciling. We all have gigabytes of junk on our machines and somehow we cope. Directories FTW
[15:45]	Charlette Proto: 	this is why good UI support functions will be critical
[15:45]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Morgaine: So you feel the clutter would be manageable?
[15:45]	Robin Cornelius: 	heh Morgaine, some how cope != good efficient UI design
[15:46]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Actually we've discussed the solution before: views and links, so that you can make the parts you use most easily accessible rather than having to wade a large tree.
[15:46]	Charlette Proto: 	filtering Morgaine
[15:46]	Robin Cornelius: 	i agree with that
[15:46]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	and more powerful text search
[15:46]	Charlette Proto: 	show all vs show this grid or other
[15:46]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Charlette: it's different to filtering. Filtering doesn't reorganize
[15:47]	Charlette Proto: 	for me it comes back to exposing some attributes (ala filesystem) in the inv
[15:47]	Jacek Antonelli: 	That could be a good solution, Charlette. The ability to optionally hide or show things that you can't access
[15:47]	Mm Alder: 	But "show all" would require your inventory to be kept locally.
[15:48]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Mm: Yes, there would need to be a cache. Or a way to retrieve your inventory list from other grids, without actually retrieving the asset data.
[15:48]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	Mm: or always connected to inventories of all the grids you've visited
[15:48]	Jacek Antonelli: 	But that's an implementation detail. Users wouldn't know or care about how it's done
[15:48]	Charlette Proto: 	comes back to many issues about managing the inventory attributes in UI we have talked about
[15:48]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Something you can't access is still a perfectly good inventory item. You still want to be able to manipulate things in your inventory despite not being able to equip them at that spot.
[15:48]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	users would care if it wouldn't work...
[15:48]	Jacek Antonelli: 	heheh
[15:49]	Charlette Proto: 	the inventory indexes are in the local cache
[15:49]	McCabe Maxsted: 	how would you explain to them they can't do anything with the inventory they see morgaine?
[15:49]	Charlette Proto: 	those from other grids don't need to be accessed till you move to those grids
[15:49]	Mm Alder: 	I have a feeling if users were given a directory structure for inventories across grids, the top level direcory would have entries that contain the names of the grids.
[15:49]	Morgaine Dinova: 	McCabe: exception handling on equip
[15:50]	Robin Cornelius: 	you could allow a certain subset of operations such as moving around in folders, or renaming, things that only effect for a better word the asset description, this data could be queued and applied when possible on connect to the grid with those assets
[15:50]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Morgaine: So if they tried, they'd get an error? Wouldn't they have to keep trying different items until they finally found one that worked? Seems suboptimal
[15:51]	McCabe Maxsted: 	so cache changes, then apply them next login?
[15:51]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek: more UI feedback would be great, but how do you know it's not accessible before you try it?
[15:51]	Robin Cornelius: 	plenty of room for massive cockups in implementation, but yes
[15:51]	Charlette Proto: 	the folders in inventory are not at all like filesystem folders so moving/organising them (I hate folders BTW) can work across all items from all grids including the ones limited to a particular grid
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Morgaine: From a user standpoint, there could be indications like graying it out, putting an icon next to it, etc.
[15:52]	Morgaine Dinova: 	It's certainly not scalable for the viewer to test all inventory items for equipability so that it can grey them out.
[15:52]	Charlette Proto: 	grid availability attribute
[15:52]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	I think a combination of graying out AND different top level folder is more intuitive
[15:53]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Charlette: still has to be accessed to check the availability metadata
[15:53]	Morgaine Dinova: 	And that doesn't scale
[15:53]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Different top level folders would be a simple solution, and avoid many issues, it seems.
[15:53]	Charlette Proto: 	top level folders would be in my view be the most primitive way to go (1980s computing metaphor)
[15:54]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yes, somewhat primitive. Perhaps a fallback solution.
[15:54]	Robin Cornelius: 	got to run before i turn into a pumpkin at midnight, catch you all again soon. Bye!
[15:54]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	what would be a better way?
[15:54]	Jacek Antonelli: 	If nothing better can be thought up
[15:54]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Take care, Robin! Thanks for dropping by :)
[15:54]	Charlette Proto: 	I think there are more people already using tags etc than folder metaphor
[15:54]	McCabe Maxsted: 	take care robin
[15:54]	Morgaine Dinova: 	If caches were never deleted, then in principle one could build up the accessibility data to allow greying out. But without that, there is no way to know.
[15:54]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Cya Robin
[15:55]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Morgaine: the assets could be tagged with some sort of "originator" attribute, which describes where the asset comes from. Then it would only be necessary to check with the server for each originator, rather than each inventory item.
[15:55]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek: no, it's per item
[15:56]	Charlette Proto: 	yes jacek a visible tag
[15:56]	McCabe Maxsted can't think of one, thick 	McCabe Maxsted can't think of one, thick
[15:56]	Charlette Proto: 	tags could be used for many other UI conveniences as we have discussed before
[15:56]	Morgaine Dinova: 	A given originator can place different access rights on different items
[15:56]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	from my (limited) expirience introducing non-technical people to Gmail, a tag interface is less intuitive than a folder interface
[15:57]	Charlette Proto: 	I still think some equvalence or replacement mapping solution would be neccessary in UI
[15:57]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Morgaine: but if your cache says that the item comes from Grid X and its permissions indicate that it can be exported to other grids, and the current grid says that items exported from Grid X are available here, then wouldn't that be enough to conclude that the item is probably usable here?
[15:57]	Charlette Proto: 	Thick this is only because folders have been around longer
[15:58]	Charlette Proto: 	folders hide things in a very primitive way - only one organisation paradigm can be expressed
[15:58]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek: it would if that were how interop perms were arranged. Sadly, they're not. :-(
[15:58]	Teravus Ousley: 	in the 2d graphics space, a folder is very effective. Maybe we need some kind of new 3D UI control for inventory :P
[15:58]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Or the other way around -- if Grid X says that the item can be exported to the current grid
[15:59]	Mm Alder: 	Teravus, a warehouse?
[15:59]	Geneko Nemeth: 	We humans are still more used to manipulating 2D over 3D.
[15:59]	Teravus Ousley: 	㋡
[15:59]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Apparently worlds are populated with people that have very different ideas of where their stuff can go, and there's not going to be a simple "interop bit". Nightmares ahead
[15:59]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	Jurasic Park-style fly-over inventory!
[16:00]	Morgaine Dinova: 	If you remember the early days of the web, full of "Missing image", that's where we're heading initially.
[16:00]	McCabe Maxsted: 	haha! I would use that
[16:00]	McCabe Maxsted: 	(just for the theme music)
[16:00]	Charlette Proto: 	what if the organisation of all these relationship was to be local and exportable to servers rathere than reliant on a meta asset system which is not very likely to be embraced by LL
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, then technical and legal issues might make graying out or other similar indicators infeasible.
[16:01]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Charlette: I bet that's what Opensim does. LL will follow 5 years later :P
[16:01]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe 'embraced by LL' that was a fuzzy touchy slip of the tongue
[16:02]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yet it would still be a terribly icky usability issue if users couldn't tell at a glance whether something was available or not. So it may be that blending multiple grids' inventories together might not be a good solution, usability-whise.
[16:02]	Mm Alder: 	Well, there's no reason that there be a one to one asset server to virtual world.
[16:02]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Tera: do you know any details of what Diva and others are doing for HG2?
[16:02]	Charlette Proto: 	Morg this is why I think it can be implemented along with replacement mapping to make the system practical regardless of LL
[16:02]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek++
[16:03]	Mm Alder: 	Suppose there were an OpenAsset server that allowed access from anywhere. Would anyone put their stuff there?
[16:03]	Morgaine Dinova: 	My Jacek++ wasn't for the separateion (which is not possible), but for the fact that it's icky if we can't tell.
[16:03]	Teravus Ousley: 	In HG1, required assets transfer to the region domain
[16:03]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	Charlette: replacment mapping for all objects, or just some important ones?
[16:03]	Charlette Proto: 	but cache could hold the info of grid attributes and have them saved on OSGrid servers
[16:03]	Teravus Ousley: 	so, all are usable
[16:03]	Teravus Ousley: 	I'm not sure with HG2 yet.
[16:04]	Charlette Proto: 	Thick just the ones you care about and having decen defaults for each grid
[16:04]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	something like a default avatar?
[16:04]	Charlette Proto: 	fallback to default for items which had not been mappped
[16:04]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Perhaps it would be enough to indicate to the user where the asset came from (or, perhaps, where they have accessed it from). Then they can form their own guesses about "Well, most things from Grid X seems to work here or Grid Y too."
[16:04]	Charlette Proto: 	yes Thick
[16:04]	Jacek Antonelli: 	*here on Grid Y
[16:05]	Jacek Antonelli: 	And when they successfully use it on Grid Y, the indicator could reflect that. Maybe go away entirely, so that indicators would only show "things that could possibly not work here"
[16:05]	Mm Alder: 	Creative Commons Asset Server?
[16:05]	Charlette Proto: 	I have a range of skin versions same for hair and could define some prfs on those much rather than ever risc being Ruth
[16:06]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Mm: undoubtedly CC asset services at some point
[16:06]	Mm Alder: 	Morgain, it seems like it should be the first step.
[16:06]	Mm Alder: 	Why should asset servers be tied to grids?
[16:06]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yeah, that's the easy bit, CC assets, because they can be distributed anywhere
[16:06]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	Mm: sort of equivalent to social bookmarking services?
[16:06]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yes, I'm assuming that there will be many different asset providers/hosts, some CC, some with other licenses, and not necessarily on a 1:1 correspondence with grids
[16:07]	Charlette Proto: 	in the meantime we will need to have UI functions for coping with incompatible assets since LL is not likely to play the game for now and are the most significant factor in this
[16:07]	Mm Alder: 	Thickbrick, I don't know. Not familair.
[16:07]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Mm: they're not tied to grids, but exactly how that's controlled depends on the asset service. It's still being worked out
[16:08]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yet the grid you're trying to use it on still has a huge impact on whether you can use it or not, because the asset provider might not support this grid.
[16:08]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	Mm, I was thinking of an asset serverl that is sort of like a public inventory, so you only put stuff in it you don't mind everyone seeing
[16:08]	Morgaine Dinova: 	The main examples of how this might work are HG/HG2 and Cable Beach -- http://code.google.com/p/cablebeach/wiki/CableBeachCore1_0
[16:08]	Charlette Proto: 	after all the population (for now) is the LL avatars and their access to other grids si what we are talking about
[16:08]	Teravus Ousley: 	time for me to go. ㋡ it most definately was an interesting conversation :)
[16:08]	Morgaine Dinova: 	OGP hasn't figured it out yet ... after 2 years ^_^
[16:08]	Charlette Proto: 	byee Teravus
[16:08]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Take care, Teravus! Thanks for coming!
[16:08]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Cya Tera
[16:09]	McCabe Maxsted: 	take care teravus. Thanks for coming :)
[16:09]	Mm Alder: 	Before everyone leaves, I'd like to point to http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-10924 have a look when you get a chance.
[16:10]	Charlette Proto: 	really we need to focus on LL avies travelling to other grids since other populations are insignificant for now
[16:10]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Let's stay to discuss it?
[16:10]	Morgaine Dinova: 	We have an hour before Andrew's OH
[16:10]	McCabe Maxsted: 	the JIRA?
[16:10]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yeah, Mm's work
[16:10]	Jacek Antonelli: 	VWR-10924 is an interesting one. I'd be up for staying and talking about it.
[16:11]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Any last remarks on multigrid usability?
[16:11]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Small remark
[16:12]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Please ensure that the commandline flags for grid selection override anything set up in the grids panel, or the whole launching thing breaks
[16:12]	Geneko Nemeth: 	A "logoff" or even a "close and restart" would be useful for people changing avatars often...
[16:12]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Good points
[16:13]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Meerkat has a logout feature, which I think is a necessity for good multigrid support.
[16:13]	Charlette Proto: 	there are both, the logoff and change avatar functions in Meerkat Geneko
[16:13]	Morgaine Dinova: 	And the existing grids panel from Meerkat or Emerald is a disaster on usability, so I'm guessing you'll turn that inside out :-)
[16:13]	Jacek Antonelli: 	And command line options are definitely good. For one thing, they let you set up shortcuts to connect to different grids
[16:13]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Aww~ yeah, that one is a chair.
[16:13]	Geneko Nemeth: 	The grids panel that is.
[16:14]	Geneko Nemeth: 	The whole login screen, actually.
[16:14]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah, we're going to be doing a serious revamp of the grid manager feature
[16:14]	Jacek Antonelli: 	UI-wise
[16:14]	McCabe Maxsted: 	:)
[16:14]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yeah. The commandline options all exist, but I've noticed that one or two viewer ignore them. or override them with the grids panel selection, which is wrong. Hippo is one I think
[16:14]	Jacek Antonelli: 	(And functionality whise, a bit)
[16:14]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Morgaine: Yep. Consider your remark duly noted. :)
[16:15]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hahaha, neat :P
[16:15]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I use the command line options myself, so if they stop working -- they'll soon start working again!!
[16:15]	Charlette Proto: 	regarding this JIRA the widget / tear-off to tollbar UI would be good in context of the multigrid support since many residents would never join multiple grids so these UI tools could be part of the customisable interface
[16:15]	Morgaine Dinova: 	HAHAHA
[16:15]	Jacek Antonelli cracks a whip 	Jacek Antonelli cracks a whip
[16:15]	Geneko Nemeth only uses the command line when SL crashes at the login screen.	Geneko Nemeth only uses the command line when SL crashes at the login screen.
[16:16]	Charlette Proto: 	I use "-multiple" hehe
[16:16]	Charlette Proto: 	but most will accept the grid URL
== Extra Discussion ==
Several people stayed after the main discussion to talk about (Magical scripted HUD/UI). However, it was interrupted quite a bit by participants crashing from a joint/animation-related bug.
[16:09]	Mm Alder: 	Before everyone leaves, I'd like to point to http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-10924 have a look when you get a chance.
(snip) 	 	
[16:10]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Let's stay to discuss it?
[16:10]	Morgaine Dinova: 	We have an hour before Andrew's OH
[16:10]	McCabe Maxsted: 	the JIRA?
[16:10]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yeah, Mm's work
[16:10]	Jacek Antonelli: 	VWR-10924 is an interesting one. I'd be up for staying and talking about it.
(snip) 	 	
[16:20]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Ick, crashy
[16:20]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hehe, it's Mm's topic, so we need him
[16:20]	Charlette Proto: 	WB Jacek
[16:20]	McCabe Maxsted: 	wb you two
[16:20]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Wb :-)
[16:20]	Charlette Proto: 	so did Mm
[16:20]	Mm Alder: 	Sorry. Crashed.
[16:20]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Someone's joints broke mah viewer!!
[16:20]	Charlette Proto: 	see I wasn't wrong Morgaine
[16:20]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Wb both, hehe
[16:20]	Jacek Antonelli glares at the tinies. ;) 	Jacek Antonelli glares at the tinies. ;)
[16:21]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Anyway. What did I miss?
[16:21]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Oh, is that why Snow's been crashing recently, something about joints?
[16:21]	McCabe Maxsted: 	not much; we were going to talk about Mm's patch?
[16:21]	Charlette Proto: 	back to my last bit; Widgets and custom toolbars would be great in context of the additional metagrid needs
[16:22]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Dunno, Morgaine. But I got an error message about it when my Imp developer compile crashed.
[16:22]	Mm Alder: 	The patch as it is is really a set of four tools.
[16:22]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I only just heard of Mm's patch today, was prolly asleep when it was mentioned, so going though it. Wanna describe it for us?
[16:22]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Ah cool, /me listens
[16:22]	Mm Alder: 	One logs UI events to the log or to a floater.
[16:23]	Mm Alder: 	Another logs events to a window for a single floater
[16:24]	Mm Alder: 	Another builds a floater from a notecard containing XML
[16:24]	Mm Alder: 	And the logging windows can forward the events to chat
[16:25]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Aww... so it's not an Customer Experience Improvement Program?
[16:25]	Mm Alder: 	The idea is for an object to send a notecard with a HUD
[16:25]	Charlette Proto: 	so this way custom floaters could be built from existing UI elemnts to meet one's preferences/choice of tools?
[16:26]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Interesting
[16:26]	Mm Alder: 	You can use the preview function to design floaters, but the widgets wouldn't fucntion.
[16:26]	Morgaine Dinova: 	That's pretty wild.
[16:26]	Mm Alder: 	You'd have to overwrite existing .xml files to get them to function.
[16:27]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I wonder what LL thought of highjacking notecards like that. I love it :P
[16:27]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Haha, hooray for hijacking notecards! \o/ I have some plans for doing that for various features, too
[16:27]	Mm Alder: 	I was hoping Imprudence might be a home for the project, but it needs a 1.23.4 code base.
[16:27]	Charlette Proto: 	but could you use alternate toolsets eg switch between them and the default this way (modes you use the viewer in for various tasks eg build chat)
[16:28]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hm, yes. We'll be upgrading to 1.23 fairly soon. At most, in a month. Maybe earlier, if things keep going as smoothly as they have the past two days
[16:28]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Where can I watch you work on rebasing?
[16:29]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I've already done the upgrade, but it has some crashes for us to resolve. Not sure when we'll get those sorted out
[16:29]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Aww~
[16:29]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Uh oh. I need to test an RC then, since 1.23* crashes owing to font issues on some Linux machines.
[16:29]	Charlette Proto: 	this would be great, especially if residents could somehow trade/give the notecards and get them to load
[16:29]	Mm Alder: 	Charlette, the UI floaters are built at startup. It may be possible to build them all and show/hide them when you want.
[16:30]	Charlette Proto: 	Linux is also a problem for Meerkat code (maybe Imp uses some of the same patches)
[16:30]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek: these two consecutive bugs have the same root cause, as showin in the strace output. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-14301 + https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-14302
[16:30]	Mm Alder: 	The notecards would be for HUDs that interact with objects, not UI floaters.
[16:30]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Everything after 1.22.11 has the same bug
[16:31]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Morg: Thanks for the links. Anyway, back to Mm's feature
[16:31]	Charlette Proto: 	custom tool collections for various residents and modality (task oriented) are the things I'm trying to capture in this
[16:31]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Mm: So, the script tells the viewer the UUID of the notecard asset to download and read, and then the viewer builds up a floater from the XML in that notecard?
[16:33]	Mm Alder: 	Jacek, that's the eventual solution. It's not that far yet. There are details to be worked out (see the JIRA entry) that require discussion (hopefully here).
[16:33]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Mm: how about making the names of the XML files changeable instead of overwriting existing files?
[16:33]	McCabe Maxsted: 	I can see a LOT of use for radio buttons in this
[16:34]	Mm Alder: 	Morgaine, the C++ objects that implement the functionality of the UI look for specific names.
[16:34]	Charlette Proto: 	agrees with Morgaine especially to get to the modal UI possibilities etc
[16:34]	McCabe Maxsted: 	change your outfits with a hud, predefined settings with checkboxes instead of memorizing channel commands
[16:34]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Mm: change the C++ objects to use user-configurable data.
[16:35]	Mm Alder: 	That's possible, but what would that buy you?
[16:35]	McCabe Maxsted: 	are you supporting all the same xml as the viewer, or just a subset?
[16:35]	Charlette Proto: 	I noticed that alt viewers use the SecondLife_dot something a lot which must be hardcoded in many places
[16:35]	McCabe Maxsted: 	because I could easily make an xml window that covers your screen you can't escape from, stuff like that
[16:35]	Mm Alder: 	McCabe, so far, but we need at least one more tag to implement actions.
[16:36]	Charlette Proto: 	could the XML files have multiple entries in them
[16:36]	Mm Alder: 	McCabe, yes it has potential for griefing. That's why we need more eyes on this.
[16:36]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Mm: well you said you had to overwrite existing XML files, so I assumed that something would be lost. If that's not important then yeah, nothing gained.
[16:37]	Jacek Antonelli: 	(Woops, now McCabe has crashed, too)
[16:37]	Mm Alder: 	Charlette, no, but the viewer allows for a directory containing user overrides.
[16:38]	Charlette Proto: 	OK same result especially if a number of them could be used (eg in the future)
[16:38]	Mm Alder: 	Morgain, I should have said override, not overwrite.
[16:38]	Morgaine Dinova: 	It's nuts, all this crashing. This is not the way things should be developed. It's seriously wrong.
[16:39]	Garn Conover: 	hehe
[16:39]	Morgaine Dinova: 	No seriously
[16:39]	Charlette Proto: 	theoretically modality is bad for UI but Second Life™ seems to have too many task oriented ways to use the UI tools
[16:39]	Jacek Antonelli: 	McCabe got the same error I did, too. There's an assert that is failing, related to avatar skeleton joints and animation
[16:39]	Charlette Proto: 	yup I've seen maybe 50 crashes overnight (last 12 or 13 hours)
[16:39]	Garn Conover: 	ouch
[16:40]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Someone might have an animation that's corrupt or something.
[16:40]	Jacek Antonelli: 	The murderer could be in this very room!
[16:40]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Erm... this very... field?
[16:40]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Oh, this isn't Detective Conan...
[16:40]	Mm Alder: 	Well, I've got to go. See you next week.
[16:41]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Well assert failure is at least showing control, that's cool. But viewers are crashing left and right hundreds of thousands of times a day in SL. This is seriously wrong.
[16:41]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Take care, Mm! Thanks for coming, and cool work on the magical hud stuff :)
[16:41]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Cya Mm :_)
[16:41]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yeah, Mm++
[16:41]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Imprudence will definitely be happy to have it once we upgrade to 1.23
[16:41]	Charlette Proto: 	byee Mm, thanks for comming and the JIRA work
[16:42]	Garn Conover waits for server to let McCabe in	Garn Conover waits for server to let McCabe in
[16:42]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Great discussions this week, I have to say!