Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2011.10.07

Simulator_User_Group
Prev 2011.10.04	Next 2011.10.11
== List of Speakers ==
Acheron Gloom 	Andrew Linden 	Asterion Coen
Calcite Serendipity 	Kelly Linden 	Latif Khalifa
Leonel Iceghost 	Liisa Runo 	Lucia Nightfire
Moundsa Mayo 	Nalates Urriah 	Pauline Darkfury
Rex Cronon 	Sahkolihaa Contepomi	Simon Linden
TankMaster Finesmith	Vincent Nacon 	
== Transcript ==
[16:04] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Hey Andrew.
[16:04] TankMaster Finesmith: welcome andrew
[16:04] Vincent Nacon: hmmm ok, that might explain a little bit in my case
[16:05] Simon Linden: I have no idea on the progress ... I haven't heard any screaming or panics, so it seems to be going OK
[16:05] Pauline Darkfury: I think I'm poss seeing signs of the rate of restarts being higher today, after not seeing much sign of it earlier in the week
[16:05] Andrew Linden: Hello.
[16:05] Vincent Nacon: I ended up getting two copy of a object I was working on
[16:05] Andrew Linden: Sorry I'm late. I was in the middle of a code review.
[16:05] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: 'screaming or panics' xP
[16:05] Simon Linden: Right, I suspect the first few days were learning, and now they should have the process down smoothly
[16:05] Vincent Nacon: same script but different "name" because of how I labeled them with version number
[16:06] Simon Linden: Andrew - I talked briefly about the rollout and then we were discussing the kernel upgrade
[16:06] Pauline Darkfury: Yeah, I'm happy for the overall process to take longer and have a soft start to ensure quality
[16:06] Rex's greeter says: Hello Sniper, Simon, Moundsa, TankMaster, Vincent, Pauline, Questar, Latif, Sahkolihaa, Andrew, Acheron, Riku, Asterion, Calcite, Lucia, and Liisa.
[16:06] Riku's Titler v1.1.5: Riku Highfield needs a new title. Set one for them on /46. They can't change it themself.
[16:06] Andrew Linden: Good. I don't really have any news.
[16:06] Simon Linden: I'm pretty sure they are doing those restarts in the off-hours ... we have a 'no change window' during the peak usage periods
[16:06] Vincent Nacon: version 4 and 5 both have the same script codes of version 5... made me wondered what happened to version 4 if its label wasn't updated to 5.
[16:07] Andrew Linden: I"m not working on fixing bugs right now, but am helping Falcon with one of his projects.
[16:07] Vincent Nacon: KeyFrameAnimation?
[16:07] Latif Khalifa: was renamed to motion
[16:08] Vincent Nacon: just motion?
[16:08] Vincent Nacon: llMotion()
[16:08] Simon Linden: ll()
[16:08] Andrew Linden: No. One of his other projects. However today we're doing some code cleanup between the simulator code and the havok physics engine.
[16:08] Rex Cronon: lmo?
[16:08] Latif Khalifa: llKeyframedMotion() i think
[16:09] Vincent Nacon: ah ok, sounds better
[16:09] Nalates Urriah: llSetKeyframedMotion() I think is a bit closer
[16:09] Kelly Linden's HUD: Hello, Avatar!
[16:09] Latif Khalifa: in any case animation was replaced with motion to make it more clear what it does
[16:09] Latif Khalifa: a good change
[16:10] Vincent Nacon: aye
[16:10] Vincent Nacon: glad he listened
[16:11] Vincent Nacon: anything I should expect from the clean up with havok?
[16:11] TankMaster Finesmith: Hello, HUD!
[16:11] Andrew Linden: Yeah, I expect a whole bunch of stuff to break with this cleanup, to tell the truth.
[16:11] Vincent Nacon: yay!
[16:11] Andrew Linden: But hopefully we'll find it all before it hits RC.
[16:12] Vincent Nacon: what sort of cleaning is this?
[16:12] Latif Khalifa: the havok update?
[16:12] Vincent Nacon: a rewrite?
[16:12] Andrew Linden: For example, there was some hackery to work around some bugs in Havok4
[16:12] Latif Khalifa: yeah falcon mentioned something about havok upgrade to support new AI pathfinding stuff
[16:12] Andrew Linden: that we're just removing now since... "as far as Falcon knows he's never heard of that bug"
[16:12] TankMaster Finesmith: yeah, to 2011.2 i believe
[16:12] Andrew Linden: Falcon joined Havok back in the early Havok6 days I think
[16:13] Vincent Nacon: was told 2012
[16:13] Andrew Linden: and he's not familiar with Havok4 bugs
[16:13] Vincent Nacon: but I'd believe it's 2011.2 as well
[16:13] TankMaster Finesmith: i think falcon said 2011.2 at oskar's meeting
[16:13] Andrew Linden: there was a bug in the Havok4 transition where objects that were bumped did not necessarily wake up their "simulation islands"
[16:14] Vincent Nacon: is this bug are the gap between collision we talking about?
[16:14] Andrew Linden: so if they were in a stack and they were hit... the stack didn't necessarily wake up.
[16:14] Pauline Darkfury: sounded something like 2011.2 at yesterday's meeting, I think
[16:14] Andrew Linden: So we hacked a solution, and we're cleaning up that solution today (Falcon is, I was just reviewing his code trying to remember why I put it in)
[16:14] Vincent Nacon: could you tell me little more about that?
[16:15] Andrew Linden: about what Vincent?
[16:15] Vincent Nacon: that solution
[16:15] Andrew Linden: Well, for certain events we would "poke" the object that was hit, and give it a "TTL" (time to live)
[16:15] Andrew Linden: where we would keep poking it for a few frames
[16:15] Vincent Nacon: had bit of projects working around it
[16:16] Andrew Linden: until Havok actually got the hint
[16:16] Andrew Linden: Falcon is removing the TTL hack
[16:16] Andrew Linden: and then we'll see...
[16:16] Andrew Linden: if the problem comes back (he doesn't expect it to)
[16:16] Vincent Nacon: I'd be more worried about the reaction collision event
[16:16] Andrew Linden: but therer are a few other places where he's cleaning up code
[16:17] Andrew Linden: way back in Havok1 days trees didn't have collision bodies
[16:17] Andrew Linden: I gave them collision bodies (simple ones) in Havok4 to clean up some special case code around trees
[16:17] Andrew Linden: and I thought maybe someday we might like to make trees linkable and/or collidable
[16:18] Andrew Linden: but Falcon is tearing that out too, and trees will reverr to being "more special" objects in code
[16:18] Andrew Linden: although I don't think the code is going to be messier
[16:18] Rex Cronon: can we put lsl in trees?
[16:18] Vincent Nacon: bit of weeding doesn't hurt
[16:18] Andrew Linden: it is definitely moving toward a cleaner state.
[16:18] Rex Cronon: i guess not
[16:19] Vincent Nacon: no no no.... I don't want tree have spy scripts in them
[16:19] Andrew Linden: you know... it might not be too hard to make trees scriptable
[16:19] Vincent Nacon: :P
[16:19] Andrew Linden: but they currently aren't linkable
[16:19] TankMaster Finesmith: cleaner clode may help make things act more predicable, if not desierable
[16:19] Andrew Linden: which makes them special in LSL too
[16:20] Rex Cronon: u could grow a forest is trees could be scripted. i mean a jungle:)
[16:20] Vincent Nacon: you know... might be a good idea to work on hierarchy system while you guys are at it
[16:20] Rex Cronon: if trees*
[16:20] Andrew Linden: Vincent, actually this is progress toward hierarchy
[16:21] Vincent Nacon: :D
[16:21] Andrew Linden: we first have to clean some stuff up
[16:21] Moundsa Mayo: KeyframedMotion prolly the tip of the hierarchical linksets iceberg.
[16:21] Liisa Runo: i always thought there is some very good reasont to not have trees scripted or linkable, so i made SCR-179
[16:21] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SCR-179
[#SCR-179] New feature: llManipulateLindenFlora()
[16:21] Vincent Nacon: ok good, glad it wasn't just some clean up merely for Havok's update
[16:21] Andrew Linden: hierarchy is a ways off, but I view Falcon's current work as pre-requisite
[16:21] Pauline Darkfury: Scripts in trees would be wonderful for those of us that try to automate landscaping
[16:22] Pauline Darkfury: Or a function to remote-control trees would work as well
[16:22] Pauline Darkfury: the remote control of them would be great for after they are "frozen" and the scripts self-delete
[16:23] Pauline Darkfury: If we do get scriptable trees, we need an official Linden Triffid added to the collection though ;)
[16:23] Liisa Runo: and ability to link to them or SCR-179 to be able to script removal of trees too (without need to have script in all 5000 trees in the sim)
[16:23] Pauline Darkfury: combined with key frame stuff and path finding, triffids could become a reality ;)
[16:24] Rex Cronon: u cut the trunk, the whole tree falls down. u break a twig, but the rest of tree stays in place:)
[16:24] Andrew Linden: hehe, yeah we could add a triffid shape for trees once they can be scripted
[16:25] Latif Khalifa: and you'll probably turn on PE on them making them cost 30 prims :P
[16:25] Rex Cronon: per branch, or per leaf:)
[16:25] Pauline Darkfury: lol
[16:26] Andrew Linden: "The Day of the Triffids" = classic sci-fi novel of a post-apocolyptic world destroyed by some geneticlly modified plants that could move around
[16:27] Andrew Linden: huh... good point. Trees probably have higher "costs" than boxes for some categories
[16:27] Latif Khalifa: Just don't turn on PE on them. f
[16:27] Andrew Linden: mostly rendering though... I guess they would be cheap for the physics engine if they are not represented there
[16:27] Pauline Darkfury: well, Linden Trees, the traditional ones, have 0 streaming cost, 0 physics cost, don't they?
[16:27] Latif Khalifa: Falcon loves to do that
[16:28] Pauline Darkfury: or near-0, anyway
[16:28] Latif Khalifa: Pauline, when did that stop LL from inventing costs? They're charging invented "streaming cost" for regular prims too
[16:28] Rex Cronon: if u set the PE too high, u r going to kill all trees:(
[16:28] Liisa Runo: yea! no killing trees, i love them and hug them
[16:28] Leonel Iceghost: they live in USA, they don't care =P
[16:29] Pauline Darkfury: yup, trees have to be kept cheap. Mainland is awfully barren in places as it is
[16:29] Andrew Linden: you know, I raised that idea with Falcon earlier today suggesting maybe we could just retire legacy trees and let people build objects that look like trees
[16:29] Andrew Linden: he didn't think it was a good idea
[16:30] Vincent Nacon: yeah, there's pro and cons to it
[16:30] Pauline Darkfury: No, don't retire them, but do add ways for us to do ultra-cheap landscaping
[16:30] Liisa Runo: ppl should get discount from tier if 30% of their parcel prim quota is trees
[16:30] Vincent Nacon: people hate it... people love it
[16:30] Rex Cronon: improve them:)
[16:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[16:30] Vincent Nacon: I wouldn't mind either
[16:30] Andrew Linden: Pauline, what kind of ideas do you have for "ultra cheap landscape"?
[16:30] Vincent Nacon: but... people are out there willing to scream
[16:31] Pauline Darkfury: Not sure, Andrew, but ultra-low data size, high cacheability
[16:31] Latif Khalifa: Well PE is killing the innovation in SL, so adding more PE costs will just take more oxygen out of it
[16:31] Calcite Serendipity: What is the reason to retire plants and trees?
[16:31] Andrew Linden: ah
[16:31] Vincent Nacon: aye
[16:31] Pauline Darkfury: And very low render cost
[16:31] Moundsa Mayo: We are each free to retire Linden trees on our own land.
[16:31] Pauline Darkfury: That pretty much sums up the pros of Linden trees today, I think
[16:31] Calcite Serendipity: +1 Moundsa
[16:31] Andrew Linden: Calcite. I raised the idea of getting rid of trees and plants to help simplify our own code
[16:31] Liisa Runo: ill let LL retire linden trees when LL fix alpha sorting error and remove LOD from sculpts, and make it so that sim full of sculpt trees dont crash people just like linden trees dont
[16:32] Andrew Linden: trees and plants require "special case" logic in the codebase
[16:32] Andrew Linden: which makes things messy
[16:32] Pauline Darkfury: Yeah, being able to do the same alpha mask style as Linden trees would be a big win
[16:32] TankMaster Finesmith: the alpha bug is a openGL issue, and cannot be solved w/o a massive hit on rendering performance
[16:32] TankMaster Finesmith: its not a LL issue
[16:32] Pauline Darkfury: Having some sort of way to do their simple shapes
[16:32] Andrew Linden: Huh... I bet we don't cache terrain data at all viewer side.
[16:32] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Runitai said this in IRC earlier.
[16:33] Liisa Runo: so, we need linden trees between them sculpt trees, cant retire them
[16:33] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: But it isn't an OpenGL issue Tank - it's computer graphics in general. :p
[16:33] Leonel Iceghost: why are they so special?
[16:33] Leonel Iceghost: in the code
[16:33] Andrew Linden: Trees can't be scripted or linked and they don't collide.
[16:34] Andrew Linden: Also, they can't be built on land unless the person has "landscaping" perms
[16:34] Pauline Darkfury: well, you can eliminate the no-script, no-link stuff, but keep the no-physics
[16:34] Leonel Iceghost: you could eliminate the "landscaping" perms too
[16:34] Andrew Linden: so whenever there is code that is dealing with attaching objects to avatars
[16:34] Andrew Linden: we have to check to make sure we aren't trying to attach grass
[16:34] TankMaster Finesmith: linden trees would get more use if more people could use them more like normal prims
[16:34] Andrew Linden: etc
[16:35] Leonel Iceghost: why
[16:35] Pauline Darkfury: Actually, it might be fixed now, with recent changes, but it was possible not so long ago to magic Linden trees onto land without that perm, but I won't say how in open chat
[16:35] Leonel Iceghost: let them attach a whole forest :P
[16:35] Moundsa Mayo: Removing all cases but one yields extremely concise code and very low hardware requirements. It's called an ON/OFF switch.
[16:35] Simon Linden: They've been around for a long time, Leonel, and we've just never made an effort to get rid of them as special cases
[16:35] Andrew Linden: I wouldn't be surprised about bugs in tree-handling code.
[16:36] Vincent Nacon: I was just thinking about physic part of a tree... trunk is solid but the volume area of the branches and leaves act like as if you fell into a mud and slowly sink into it
[16:36] Vincent Nacon: but not too slow
[16:36] Latif Khalifa: they fall through the prims too. big wtf factor, people try to rez a palm in their "skybox garden" and it ends up 700m below
[16:36] Latif Khalifa: so they try again, and endup rezzing 20 trees on the ground level wondering what happened
[16:37] Andrew Linden: oh yeah, that too... grass and plants only render down at the ground
[16:37] Pauline Darkfury: One could view that as a feature, Latif, to force them to landscape their otherwise empty terrain level ;)
[16:37] Andrew Linden: but their z-position can be high...
[16:37] Pauline Darkfury: Although I think it's just grasses that snap to terrain, not trees (and not sure about bushes)
[16:37] Andrew Linden: until the next maint-server goes out... we snap plants to the terrain server-side in one of the future update projectsx
[16:38] Andrew Linden: but yeah, if you rez them up high they will still disappear
[16:38] Andrew Linden: to the ground
[16:38] Latif Khalifa: Pauline, either you allow them to be rezzed everywhere, or prevent rezzing high on a prim. The worst solution is attemt to rez at 700m resullts in tree on 20m heights
[16:39] Pauline Darkfury: Yeah, the grasses have special behaviour which I can see an need for them to snap to terrain, but there's no obvious reason why trees shouldn't be usable in the sky
[16:40] Andrew Linden: I think trees can be placed in the air
[16:40] Pauline Darkfury: I've certainly had "flying" trees before
[16:40] Andrew Linden: but maybe the "creat a new tree" operation puts them on the ground?
[16:41] Latif Khalifa: so special casing is indeed bad. but i'm just afraid that "improved" trees will have PE and kill their usefullness like it did for mesh
[16:41] Calcite Serendipity: Easy enough to test it here
[16:41] Pauline Darkfury: Can't say with certainty that it works today, but it was possible to raise them above ground not so long ago
[16:41] Latif Khalifa: Pauline, it used to be at rez time. I haven't check lately
[16:41] Andrew Linden: the idea of scripting trees and giving them PE is just idle chat. It isn't in anyone's plan.
[16:41] Liisa Runo: trees can be up in sky for sure, and v1 rez them where you want them, maybe v3 has some user friendly feature to rez them a kilometer below
[16:42] Andrew Linden: That is, we aren't actively working on giving trees PE
[16:42] Latif Khalifa: perhaps it's grass only
[16:42] Pauline Darkfury: Grasses def snap to terrain, as they follow it as you move them around, plus adapt to the complex terrain shapes
[16:42] Liisa Runo: only grass, cause grass reshape itself to the shape of the terrain
[16:42] Acheron Gloom: I find it funny every conversation always ends up with bawwing about PE.
[16:42] Pauline Darkfury: As far as I can see, there's 3 types, grasses, bushes/plants/shrubs, and trees
[16:43] Vincent Nacon: PE! Them PE!
[16:43] Andrew Linden: yeah Liisa, that snapping is currently done viewer side
[16:43] Pauline Darkfury: I've had flying bushes as well, so I think it's just grasses that snap
[16:43] Latif Khalifa: ah, ok
[16:43] Liisa Runo: we like to whine about PE cause it is the worst invention since last name Resident
[16:43] Andrew Linden: but a future simulator update will snap them to the terrain
[16:43] TankMaster Finesmith: simon got a single core apple
[16:43] Simon Linden: It was cheap :)
[16:43] Andrew Linden: someone reported some render glitch from some 3p viewer in our bug system
[16:44] Andrew Linden: when we tracked it down we found that it was a gras rendering bug
[16:44] Andrew Linden: where the grass was actually at 700m
[16:44] Latif Khalifa: heh
[16:44] TankMaster Finesmith: huh
[16:44] Andrew Linden: but it would render near the ground sometimes... if you had just arrived from 700m
[16:44] Andrew Linden: or something... maybe it was shadows from the grass
[16:44] Andrew Linden: I don't remember the details
[16:44] TankMaster Finesmith: havent heard of that one
[16:45] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Prims high in the sky will render shadows on the ground, if it's that.
[16:45] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Even if outside your DD.
[16:45] Simon Linden: I think the selection was drawn in the wrong place ... down on the ground when they were actually far up in the air
[16:45] TankMaster Finesmith: i noticed that to on davep's openGL updated build
[16:47] Andrew Linden: right, yet another special case for grass... the rendering shadow code
[16:48] Lucia Nightfire: Andrew, is the ban ceiling for explicit bans going to be raised soon?
[16:49] Andrew Linden: Lucia, I thought maybe it had changed recently... a couple weeks ago.
[16:49] Lucia Nightfire: no, its still 800m
[16:49] Andrew Linden: although, maybe that was just for object placement
[16:49] TankMaster Finesmith: andrew could test that easly enough :P
[16:49] Lucia Nightfire: yes
[16:49] Pauline Darkfury: Terrain+768, I beleive, but I've not tested for a while
[16:49] Lucia Nightfire: all placement except object dropping from attachment
[16:50] Pauline Darkfury: Oh, and before time runs out, SVC-7343
[16:50] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7343
[#SVC-7343] llMinEventDelay Bug
[16:50] Andrew Linden: Really, I thought I got dropping from attachment too. Sigh...
[16:50] Acheron Gloom: Oh, since we're looking at the mineventdelay one
[16:50] Acheron Gloom: has the moving_end one been noticed as well?
[16:50] Pauline Darkfury: llMinEventDelay appears to be totally broken, causing some products which base their timing around it to fail badly
[16:51] Acheron Gloom: SVC-7348
[16:51] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7348
[#SVC-7348] moving_end() event executes on moving, script-rezzed physical objects
[16:51] Pauline Darkfury: The high-benefit case for it is products which take controls, reducing their lag, and basing movement off the rate of the event
[16:51] Simon Linden: I think Kelly has fixed llMinEventDelay() already
[16:51] Liisa Runo: SCR-218
[16:51] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SCR-218
[#SCR-218] moving_end get triggered on sim border crossing
[16:51] Acheron Gloom: I think 7348 and 218 is related
[16:51] Pauline Darkfury: yay, Kelly! :)
[16:52] Kelly Linden: yeah sorry about that.
[16:52] Andrew Linden: Both fixed kelly?
[16:52] Kelly Linden: Which?
[16:52] Object: Hello, Avatar!
[16:52] Pauline Darkfury: llMinEventDelay and moving_end
[16:52] Kelly Linden: I fixed llMinEventDelay
[16:52] Kelly Linden: I havn't looked into moving_end
[16:53] Pauline Darkfury: Any ETA for when we should see llMinEventDelay fixed on RC?
[16:54] Acheron Gloom: Alright. Moving end is kinda important, though it may not seem to be directly. A lot of bulelts use it to auto-die if they get locked somehow, as to reduce lag from them just sitting around. But now its causing all projectiles that use that feature to just randomly die when rezzed.
[16:54] Vincent Nacon: couldn't use timer instead?
[16:55] Acheron Gloom: No point in using timer over moving_end.
[16:55] Acheron Gloom: Its already set to temp, set to die on land_collision_start, collision_start, etc.
[16:55] Latif Khalifa: except when you need to detect rotation change for non-physical prims
[16:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[16:55] Pauline Darkfury: moving_end should be the "best" solution for some cases, in terms of being low event rate, exactly what's needed
[16:55] Latif Khalifa: then you have to go timer
[16:56] Kelly Linden: I put the fix in a maint-after-next branch, but it is pretty trivial. I'll talk to Andrew later about getting it out quicker if it is being a problem.
[16:56] Andrew Linden: It is is a simple fixe I'm in favor of getting it out into an RC update
[16:56] Pauline Darkfury: Yes, please, Kelly. It has completely broken some products primary functionality
[16:57] Andrew Linden: It if isn't in an RC update that we're prepping for next week right now, then the earliest it could get out would be in an RC the week after next
[16:57] Andrew Linden: so 1.5 weeks to RC from today
[16:58] Vincent Nacon: keep up that good work
[16:58] Pauline Darkfury: Thanks. Not ideal, but it's much better than "sometime"
[16:59] Andrew Linden: As to the unlimited hieght to explicit ban... dunno when that would get done.
[16:59] Leonel Iceghost: Andrew, once you said something about Gez Linden coming to say something cool, I wonder what it was
[17:00] Leonel Iceghost: he never came I think
[17:00] Calcite Serendipity: About new gaming features coming out ?
[17:00] Vincent Nacon: never knew there was a Gez Linden
[17:00] Andrew Linden: I'd really prefer some "product" person to declare that it needed to get done rather than me go vigilante on it.
[17:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[17:00] Pauline Darkfury: One last thing from me today. R.I.P. Steve Jobs, 1955-2011 :( I'd be surprised if there's not something he had a hand in sometime, that has benefitted every single person here, in some way.
[17:00] Vincent Nacon: I'm sure they'll come up afterward
[17:00] Vincent Nacon: muhaha!
[17:01] Andrew Linden: Hrm.. I can't remember what Gez was going to come talk about.
[17:01] Andrew Linden: I don't think his project has been announced yet.
[17:01] Nalates Urriah: quick make up something
[17:01] Calcite Serendipity: I saw that video from SLCC where Esbee was demo-ing new game features
[17:01] Leonel Iceghost: it was a couple of weeks ago
[17:01] Andrew Linden: Oh right, they did talk about it at SLCC didn't they?
[17:01] Calcite Serendipity: forced tp, etc.
[17:02] Leonel Iceghost: I'll look for it, thanks Calcite
[17:02] Calcite Serendipity: yes, not a secret any more
[17:02] Vincent Nacon: Never liked Apple but he's one tough competitor we'll ever see
[17:02] Andrew Linden: Well, nevertheless, I'll get Gez talk about it when it is time.
[17:03] Calcite Serendipity: Those game things were just a demo, not clear how many or what will be released
[17:03] Andrew Linden: One of the original goals of SL was to make it featureful enough to make games.
[17:03] Moundsa Mayo: Needs a native table-driven state machine to make that easy.
[17:03] TankMaster Finesmith: you mean other than beer pong?
[17:04] Liisa Runo: will be tricky to make SL support taking controls over more buttons, ans that is pretty important for games
[17:04] Pauline Darkfury: Mmm, I think the stuff from SLCC is broad concepts, details to be figured out over time, rather than specific stuff to expect "soon", or that was the impression I got
[17:04] Moundsa Mayo: Insteadof the way i kludge things up in LSL.
[17:04] Calcite Serendipity: There's a feature request--avatar drunkeness, to go along with the health icon
[17:04] Andrew Linden: However, as most of you know ... if you wanted to make a decent game in SL there are many hurdles, you have to do workarounds, and ultimately it may be impossible to get the immersion quality you want
[17:04] Andrew Linden: just because of missing features, nerfed features, and such
[17:04] Latif Khalifa: i wish the c# scipring engine project got resurrected. LSL is so limiting
[17:04] Rex Cronon: who is going to pay 50 bucks to play a game here?
[17:05] Vincent Nacon: well better work on Havok some more, that's where most games require
[17:05] Pauline Darkfury: We don't need the first cut of this stuff to really measure up to other games, just enable some more creativity and ways to use the platform
[17:05] Andrew Linden: yes, LSL is a prime example... a lot of stuff is possible, some stuff is hard to do, and some is just impossible
[17:05] Vincent Nacon: I've been doing some work around for 3 years on my car
[17:05] Andrew Linden: Pauline, I'm with you however...
[17:06] Vincent Nacon: I even cried when you guys took my Joint away
[17:06] Andrew Linden: targeting specific game-enabling features can be done by trying to create specific games in SL
[17:06] Latif Khalifa: took me 400 lines of code to implement hmac-sha1 needed for twitter oauth when babbage asked for it lol
[17:06] Vincent Nacon: working on a derby demo game
[17:06] Latif Khalifa: it's a one liner in c#
[17:06] Acheron Gloom: Shameless self-plug: SCR-154 would help some existing games. :D
[17:06] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SCR-154
[#SCR-154] llRezObjectFast() and llRezAtRootFast(), rezzing functions with zero delay
[17:06] Andrew Linden: but it is only possible to make decent progress on it if LL is trying to make the games first... we'll be motivated the most
[17:06] Andrew Linden: we did that way back in alpha and beta
[17:07] Rex Cronon: u could have a yearl competition for the best games designed in sl?
[17:07] Rex Cronon: a yearly*
[17:07] Andrew Linden: LL built and maintained some content just to see if it could be done, and to make sure we added features until it could be done
[17:07] Latif Khalifa: yeah nothing like dogfooding :)
[17:07] Vincent Nacon: oh god... don't reminds of Primtar
[17:07] Andrew Linden: Rex, we had some competitions like that a long time ago
[17:07] Vincent Nacon: or was it Primatar?
[17:07] Calcite Serendipity: Rex, there would be a debate on what is a "game"
[17:08] Rex Cronon: a loooong time ago...
[17:08] Andrew Linden: as I recall I introduced some bug that broke the winning game a few months after it won.
[17:08] Rex Cronon: craps is a game;)
[17:08] Pauline Darkfury: Yup, I'm all for LL creating more content that pushes the limit of the platform
[17:08] TankMaster Finesmith: ^
[17:08] Pauline Darkfury: The way I see it, LL's staffing level is never going to steal that much market from resident creators, just should help prove and push new development
[17:08] Andrew Linden: Latif, that hmac-sha1 algorithm should probably be a single LSL call
[17:09] Andrew Linden: ask Kelly for that one
[17:09] Andrew Linden: or maybe twitter auth should just be one call
[17:09] Asterion Coen: im all for LL add tools in the internal build interface (as new prims, and new features about them)
[17:09] Pauline Darkfury: Yes, adding a few llMakeWebStuffEasy() functions could be a big win
[17:10] Vincent Nacon: the meeting ended about 10 minutes ago, btw
[17:10] Asterion Coen: a big win would be a box with rounded corner :)
[17:10] Acheron Gloom: (shhh don't tell him)
[17:10] Vincent Nacon: overtime!
[17:10] Andrew Linden: Yeah, time to wrap up and go home.
[17:10] Latif Khalifa: Andrew, you cannot read numerical code of a string. ie. no way to convert "ABC" into 3 numerical values 65, 66, 67
[17:10] TankMaster Finesmith: doh
[17:10] TankMaster Finesmith: lol
[17:10] Moundsa Mayo: Let us not forget the mysterious llTeleportVehicleWithPassengers() ...
[17:10] Andrew Linden: Thanks for coming everyone.
[17:10] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: See you Andrew & Simon.
[17:10] TankMaster Finesmith: have a great weekend, andrew, simon
[17:10] Moundsa Mayo: Andrew, Simon, Kelly (in absentia) - thanks for your time and all your hard work!
[17:10] Pauline Darkfury: Thanks, Lindens :)
[17:10] Vincent Nacon: take care then
[17:10] Latif Khalifa: makes stuff like encryption and hashes next to impossible
[17:10] Pauline Darkfury: Have a good weekend :)
[17:10] Liisa Runo: thanks everybody
[17:10] Latif Khalifa: Take care Andrew :)
[17:10] Asterion Coen: thax and have fun andrew, simon, and everybody :)
[17:10] Simon Linden: Thanks for the great conversation everyone ... have a nice weekend
[17:11] Rex Cronon: tc everybody and have a nice day
[17:11] Rex Cronon: :)
[17:11] Latif Khalifa: Have a nice one Simon :)
[17:11] Asterion Coen: and big hat of course :)
[17:11] Rex Cronon: is better than a sword above your head:)
[17:11] Asterion Coen: depend of the time :)
[17:11] Rex Cronon: or did u loose it:)
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