Doc Team/2009-11-11

== Transcript ==
[13:08]	:	Er, I mean, Jonathan, I do take suggestions!
[13:08]	:	ah, okay then
[13:09]	:	I forget, Are G-Team Office Hours held in 2007 or 2008?
[13:09]	:	hello jeremy!
[13:09]	 	has pinged you.
[13:09]	:	Hello!
[13:09]	:	exactly what i had, but i had it for three times, logging in again after each time
[13:09]	:	Sorry I'm late!
[13:09]	:	nicce had jeremy!
[13:09]	 	has pinged you.
[13:09]	:	Greetings Jeremy
[13:09]	 	has pinged you.
[13:09]	:	Cube, I don't know as I haven't been closely involved with that recently. But last I heard from Pastrami Linden, iz going well.
[13:09]	:	Thanks :-)
[13:09]	:	yw!
[13:09]	:	Jonit Ivory marks yoru book, "late again"
[13:09]	:	your such a tease!
[13:09]	:	Heyyy Jeremy!
[13:09]	 	has pinged you.
[13:09]	:	Nicholas Hawthorne marks his paw, "late" lol
[13:09]	:	is looking forward to making everything again* lol
[13:09]	:	hi all
[13:09]	:	Torley, I would like to see a vidtut on making...vidtuts--if more people knew how (what software to use, etc) and some trick they could make videos to help other people
[13:10]	:	*tricks, etc
[13:10]	:	No Soup for You
[13:10]	:	ooo torely HAS kinda coverd that , actually./ ;)
[13:10]	:	duct tape!
[13:10]	:	AAAHHhh!
[13:10]	:	Ahh yes Jonathan, I do have some advice... http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Movie_help for making movies in general. I've written other things, beyond Second Life too, on the art of making vidtuts/screencasts. Let me find more articles...
[13:10]	:	http://torley.tumblr.com/post/195882591/some-torley-tips-on-screencasting-video-tutorial
[13:10]	:	hello Nicholas, I am an unassuming roll of duct tape, pleas no biting
[13:10]	:	ok, that's great to know (and I thought I had watched them all)
[13:11]	:	Nicholas Hawthorne sniffs curiously
[13:11]	:	omg ur not a big enuf FAN then! hee hee
[13:11]	:	Jonit Ivory remains unassuming and tape like in nature
[13:11]	:	torley, i may have a interresting topic for a new sl vid
[13:11]	:	Do Saint Bernards now carry Duck Tape with their Whiskey?
[13:11]	:	I know what a tcket help support is, is Xstreet support different?
[13:12]	:	I seen torley play rip and shred guitar on his keyboards on youtube
[13:12]	:	lol
[13:12]	:	arawn, it could become the new fashion yes
[13:12]	:	a lot of residents have problems with how to get wiki working propperly etc, so that could be a interresting thing to have in vid
[13:12]	:	also jire could be interresting
[13:12]	:	Nicholas Hawthorne digs a hole, puts the tape in the hole, and replaces the dirt, and walks away
[13:12]	:	Jonit Ivory sneezes, from under the rug
[13:12]	:	I used the search function on the wiki and could not find what I was looking for.
[13:13]	:	Hahaha Bronson I like to ROCK OUT.
[13:13]	:	yeah it sounded great
[13:13]	:	Youri, yes, I'm going to do some Wiki quicktips in the future. Like a quick intro to search and editing.
[13:13]	:	Arawn Spitteler suggests a vid-tut on how to show another how to use the Wiki
[13:13]	:	That will wait until we have Google Search — soon, I hope. It's time for a refresh.
[13:13]	:	OH NOESSSSS!
[13:13]	:	I seem to get a lot of " No Page Found "
[13:13]	:	XLR8RRICK, tell me specifically what steps you do to see that?
[13:13]	:	may be a good idea to add that to short term torley, lots are complaining about it
[13:13]	:	Is that searching in-Viewer and clicking on an article with a "?" If so, known bug. :|
[13:14]	:	like if you search for shadows... it usualy sends you to a thousand transcripts to OH
[13:14]	:	Youri, point me to SPECIFIC complaints too. Send me a whole linklist, I'll investigate.
[13:14]	:	specially newer residents that do not know how to use wiki in general are complaining
[13:14]	:	Hmm...looks like someone fixed "beta" and "grid" searches. They now return info on how to log into different grids.
[13:14]	:	Bronson, I recommend searching via google and -"office hour" Boolean.
[13:14]	:	Wiki is Resident-contributable so everyone has an opportunity to take 1 minute and correct a broken link or other mistake.
[13:14]	:	well, most complaints are how to search for things and how to add something, specially new pages for example
[13:15]	:	also what tags are used is a big issue it seems
[13:15]	:	Nicholas Hawthorne snorts "imcoming"
[13:15]	:	E.g., http://www.google.com/search?q=site:wiki.secondlife.com+- "office+hour"
[13:15]	:	incoming*
[13:15]	:	hello all
[13:15]	:	way i see it, most people dont want to fill in wiki pages etc, they just want results in a few clicks
[13:15]	:	If they're ready to add, theyre ready to read the instructions... Where're the instructions?
[13:15]	:	Youri, we don't have tags. Categories, you mean? Since it sounds like you've heard a fair amount, send me links. I want specific details.
[13:15]	:	think philip is either testing or crashing a lot :p
[13:15]	:	•:*¨ Eh hehehehe haha! ¨*:•
[13:15]	:	Re: Wiki search issues in general, integrating Google Search will simplify that.
[13:15]	:	ahh he's back
[13:16]	:	i just have a quick question here... is there a way to make pictures when you're in mouselook?
[13:16]	:	google smoogle :P
[13:16]	:	Crystalship, yes, shortcut key.
[13:16]	:	probably testing the banlines at P Squared
[13:16]	:	Same as File menu > Snapshot to Disk.
[13:16]	:	well in the KB I search for Black Avatar and it comes up with No page title matches
[13:16]	:	AWWW MAN.......
[13:16]	:	well, the tags like adding in something like building skills (so that search finds these people on building skills) etc
[13:16]	:	aah as simple as that
[13:16]	:	yea...I tried to edit a coupld pages using the "edit" near the paragraph I wanted to edit, but all that did was pull up a short blub of non-related text, a template. I remember digging though the source code to find the right link to the page where I could edit the text to corrent an error.
[13:16]	:	no scripts lol
[13:16]	:	XLR8RRICK, yeah, that's a symptom of sucky MediaWiki search. Google does it better.
[13:17]	:	Techwolf, yeah, that is a tricky thing of nested templates and stuff. When you edit a page, all used templates are shown at the bottom.
[13:17]	:	a lot dont get the idea of placing a page or update from a page in general either. so i have a feeling its best to explain most things in general lines
[13:17]	:	Jonit Ivory tapes the puppy's legs together
[13:17]	:	I found many good wiki pages from links, not searches. A lot of good pages of usefull info is buried under the users pages.
[13:18]	:	AAAHHhh!
[13:18]	:	OH NOESSSSS!
[13:18]	:	Nicholas Hawthorne gets the panda to untie him,
[13:18]	:	think you did not log on to your own avi yet, but i sended a message that I contacted zai, about joining the doc OH
[13:18]	:	And also, on official policy pages you *can't* change, just send us a message via the form at the top of the page, like http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLT
[13:18]	:	•:*¨ Eh hehehehe haha! ¨*:•
[13:18]	:	Too bad he's not a cat; I think I saw some Duct Tape about
[13:18]	:	Techwolf, if you have some faves, send them my way. Being able to create your own hotlink lists is definitely awesome!
[13:18]	:	Jonit Ivory hides
[13:18]	:	she told me she did have a meeting already but if she did not forget, she would place a alt here
[13:19]	:	waves....sorry for dropping in the middle of the stage, Torley made me do it lol
[13:19]	:	lol
[13:19]	:	blame it on facebook :)
[13:19]	:	zai could be very usefull in helping out as well, she is.. well... zaipedia in general :p
[13:19]	:	Learning Wiki stuff makes sense over the long term with a little invested each day... like a savings bank account or the incremental nature of the Wiki itself.
[13:19]	:	Hahah Pat48 welcome!
[13:19]	:	Glad you could join us. :)
[13:19]	:	hi kate!
[13:19]	:	nice to finally meet you torley!!!
[13:20]	:	Torley, that was so Zen, I salute you
[13:20]	:	*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*Yayyyyyyy!!!!*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*
[13:20]	:	Yes Zai is superbly prolific. :D :D :D :D She is one of the Wiki's top contributors in terms of quality + quantity.
[13:20]	:	*salutes back*
[13:20]	:	yeah, you told me some time ago :)
[13:20]	:	OMG Nicholas, there's some fancy ASCII art. I like that Japanese diagonal smiley that's been catching on.
[13:20]	:	•:*¨ Eh hehehehe haha! ¨*:•
[13:20]	:	since i usually bump into her during CT translator OH, I asked her to join us
[13:20]	:	ッ ッ ッ ッ
[13:21]	:	it can be duct taped, he ain't that cool
[13:21]	:	Most of the stuff I find is pretty spicific, like Robin page on how to get webit to build standalone snowglobe. For someone building snowglobe on there machine, it usefull info, so the millinon that download the bianry, useless. So figureing out what good and not is a bit tricky.
[13:21]	:	was your request to me as well if im not mistaken, some time ago :)
[13:21]	:	if i could try to get her in..
[13:21]	:	Our Doc Team has been working on some really exciting stuff, including for Viewer 2.0. We can't talk about the innards yet but it's ongoing.
[13:21]	:	your nose smells
[13:21]	:	kate, dont hide! come over here!
[13:21]	:	would you get shot at dawn? ::P
[13:22]	:	•:*¨ Eh hehehehe haha! ¨*:•
[13:22]	:	Viewer 2.0 is that SL 2.0
[13:22]	:	Nicholas Hawthorne sniffs curiously
[13:22]	:	Techwolf, my own approach to it is to bookmark stuff as I come across it, then if I think it'll be helpful to others, compile it. http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/The_art_of_compiling
[13:22]	:	hmm Kate needs duct tape
[13:22]	:	if you use Sl Wiki alot, please vote for this :)) http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/WEB-1366
[13:22]	:	Torley, I hope you are on the alpha/beta testing viewer 2.0 and reporting UI disign bugs. :-)
[13:22]	:	Ellla! I see your helpful responses in SL Answers every day!
[13:22]	:	shhhh @ IM :)
[13:23]	:	Hi everyone :)
[13:23]	:	Jeremy Linden may or may not be testing a thing that was just mentioned... right now.
[13:23]	:	hi kate
[13:23]	:	Greetings Kate
[13:23]	:	hiya kate
[13:23]	:	Hahahaha. Yes Techwolf, we are. ^_^
[13:23]	:	hi kate :)
[13:23]	:	hey sweet kate!
[13:23]	:	hopefully we wont have anyone trying to date you today kate
[13:23]	:	lol
[13:23]	:	Thank you Torley :)) would be great if Wiki search was better
[13:23]	:	like last week...
[13:24]	:	yeah
[13:24]	:	there's always tomorrow, take heart
[13:24]	:	lol
[13:24]	:	I missed last week; some noob appreciative?
[13:24]	:	was pretty funny to see tho, some joker trying to date kate :p
[13:24]	:	very
[13:24]	:	Ellla, oh yes, we chatted with Zai about this as she's a Wiki Reviewer. AND we're adding Google Search, soon, I hope. That'll remove a lot of the weird problems. In the meantime, you can use...
[13:24]	:	What are you saying Kates not datable? ㋡
[13:25]	:	http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=004599080153867122396:yq7nhvunuvi (ugly URL, searches the Wiki, bookmark it!)
[13:25]	:	Probably not, on the basis that all beautiful women are married
[13:25]	:	Hmm...now I'me thinking of a good title to a page with links to all the folks that build the viewer.
[13:25]	:	he said data-able, not datable :P
[13:25]	:	all the info that folks building the viewer would find helpfull that is
[13:25]	:	data able
[13:25]	:	lol
[13:25]	:	should ask her to join the doc team, she'll be a worthy candidate for it :)
[13:25]	:	my wife says not, she's only really happy when I talk to Blue
[13:25]	:	Techwolf, therein is an idea!
[13:26]	:	i'm not sure if this is the proper venue for this question, but i've been searching all day for an answer and can't get a clear-cut response: Is camping now illegal in SL?
[13:26]	:	*reading back*
[13:26]	:	I watch metrics for what info people are looking for and not finding, both automatically (machine-based) and manually (word on the streets, SL Answers and such, y0). So we know what needs to be obvious and always appreciative when you tell us you couldn't find something that should be wayyy easier.
[13:27]	:	I recall that Camping and Traffic Botting are against policy, but where's that policy documented?
[13:27]	:	Euterpe, if by camping you mean unfair usage of Region resources, yes.
[13:27]	:	I would like to see a better document for vehicle scripting
[13:27]	:	that is still happening
[13:27]	:	I know that the cbots are on your dashboard
[13:27]	:	the way i understood it is that if a person allows camping, they must take their land off of search. is that correct?
[13:27]	:	cbots
[13:27]	:	Bots
[13:27]	:	Nicholas Hawthorne bites the duct tape
[13:27]	:	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Inworld_policy_on_bots
[13:28]	:	there are still freebie places that use camping spots, as in places to camp for money over time, and do not listen to good advice
[13:28]	:	Words like Damping aren't well defined, there. Once a person can handle the terminology, they don't tend to object to the objectionable documentation
[13:28]	:	outch!* gets sticky*
[13:28]	:	i understand the policy on bots, but what about people who aren't using bots to camp
[13:28]	:	Euterpe, provide a source for that?
[13:28]	:	camping was declaired forbidden to my knowlage
[13:28]	:	thats on your dashboard
[13:28]	:	they can set scripted agent status! oh yes a vidtut idea
[13:28]	:	We can't really tell, if someone is a bot.
[13:28]	:	Euterpe, there are many uses for bots so it's important to be specific. Beneficial uses of bots, such as for a creative art show that delights the crowd are of course allowed.
[13:28]	:	Techwolf Lupindo thinks "There is the open source portal, but i'me thinking of something for folks that are building the viewer, "build" and "building" refers to in-word building, so there would be a lot of false hits if the title has that word..."
[13:29]	:	about sploders, think you may need to read my blog for details
[13:29]	:	https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/land/blog/2009/05/21/further-clarification-on-bots-and-camping
[13:29]	:	There is a place on your account status page where you can declare if you are a bot or not
[13:29]	:	yep
[13:29]	:	how could you declare if you are a bot if you are a bot , thats like 'do androids dream of electric sheep' lol
[13:29]	:	It might be fun, for a linden to script his Linden Viewer, to follow at command, in a Djinni outfit
[13:29]	:	Techwolf, you can use a disambiguation template. Like on http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Click_actions at the top where it points to the LSL function.
[13:30]	:	there are eve residents that just call you a bot and ban you on sight for that matter
[13:30]	:	There is botting and there is massbotting
[13:30]	:	Cube: BIG PKD FAN HERE
[13:30]	:	You have to set up your account initially
[13:30]	:	:P
[13:30]	:	Could the link to Wiki KB be bigger and bolder on the SL Answers front page ? At least half the Qs could be answered from a simple search
[13:30]	:	yes
[13:30]	:	PKD?
[13:30]	:	Ellla, did you ask Lexie/Jeska about that? I can ask them too.
[13:30]	:	They're in charge of SL Answers layout.
[13:31]	:	Lexie said earlier that there were 100K hits on Answers last month
[13:31]	:	Answers has continued to grow! I don't know the stats but there's a lot of room for traffic between that and the Wiki, esp. for questions that've already been answered.
[13:32]	:	Blue probably knows
[13:32]	:	Those connections need to be more obvious, so when someone needs human responses, they can get it, while at the same time having the in-seconds convenience of knowing "Hey, there's what I was looking for".
[13:32]	:	he's usually with his noose in such things
[13:32]	:	it seems to be viewed as a support forum for many, I have read lamentable questions about my friend X was stalked by Y amd it's all terrible etc
[13:33]	:	hardly a tome of knowledge
[13:33]	:	Yes Jonit, some people want to be heard and validated, knowing it's not just them. It's bound to get messy as any human channel of communication is.
[13:34]	:	Jonit Ivory nods, is thatacceptable?
[13:34]	:	but I think those are just the Q there should be on SL Answers. If the information is available elsewhere, then its duplication
[13:34]	:	Sad are the cases where someone keeps IMing their stalker and telling him/her off instead of muting, then publicizing this, it doesn't really help. Residents can bring up their problems but in some cases, they need to use the tools to self-govern.
[13:34]	:	sometimes duplication is good
[13:34]	:	I agree Ellla, cutting down on unnecessary redundancy saves time for all!
[13:35]	:	Some questions keep coming up so it's good to know where the answers are.
[13:35]	:	at least it doubles or triples the chance for an answer
[13:35]	:	There's a bunch of stuff that came up in SL Answers where I looked at the Wiki articles and revised them, or wrote new ones based on that hotness so they can be distributed, saving time.
[13:35]	:	lots of stalkers lately
[13:36]	:	Bronson, in many cases, no, since that can create crowding, as seen with the many "IS SECOND LIFE DOWN!?" threads.
[13:36]	:	self governance is very easy here, mute, AR, etc, but it seems that some actually want to publicise the "drama" associated with it, this is lamenable, nd I fear it will cloud the Sl Aswers forum somewha
[13:36]	:	t
[13:36]	:	There should be better ways to link similar/same stuff; duplicate issues (like on the Issue Tracker for bugs) isn't helpful.
[13:36]	:	Yes Jonit, some people are mentally ill, too. That's just a fact of life.
[13:36]	:	i agree jonit.
[13:36]	:	Jonit Ivory nods
[13:36]	:	mental illness was invernted by psychiatrists
[13:36]	:	They're not Second Life problems per se, they're human problems.
[13:37]	:	attention getters
[13:37]	:	right
[13:37]	:	It's like every "NO DRAMA ZONE" I've walked into has, heck, had a lot of conflict.
[13:37]	:	dramaholics. lol
[13:37]	:	im saying the same all the time torley, no one is willing to agree on that so far
[13:37]	:	a lot claim they play against avitars, not humans
[13:38]	:	I like knowing followup, after someone has been helped, they in turn are inspired to help others.
[13:38]	:	yeah a lot seem to forget there is a human behind the AV
[13:38]	:	hmm someone attached a prim and made me creash!
[13:38]	:	The World offers many perspective, of human interaction, which is better than the alternative.
[13:38]	:	I have seen a lot of that Torley
[13:38]	:	it's the same on a lot of virtual communications (forums, ...), people tend to forget the uman being in front of the computer
[13:39]	:	Helping is Infectous
[13:39]	:	Niky Zenovka nods at Torley... The Help Domino effect... :) So cool
[13:39]	:	lol, i just help others without trying to gain something or following in anyones footprints so to speak
[13:39]	:	Oh, I was looking for Refer-A-Friend, the other day, but can find no information
[13:39]	:	It's sad to see heated arguments that don't result in any lasting change. Just wasted time & space.
[13:39]	:	i just cant help being good :p
[13:39]	:	Yes!
[13:39]	:	HELP DOMINO! I like that. Instead of falling down, in a sense, we help each other rise up.
[13:39]	:	yes there is a certain narative that flows through a lot of intertent communications, a kind of alternative persona some people adopt, very interesting to obeserve
[13:39]	:	a lot do try to abuse that though
[13:39]	:	lol
[13:39]	:	reverse domino effect
[13:39]	:	torley, you need to be in the netherlands soon then
[13:39]	:	lol
[13:40]	:	I visited Ross this week, never been before, what a fact filled infohub that is
[13:40]	:	dominoday is coming up soon
[13:40]	:	Arawn, hm, last I checked, I think that was discontinued. I'm not 100% sure.
[13:40]	:	17th november
[13:40]	:	No time is wasted in Heated ARgument, if you notice what hasn't worked, in that circumstance, it's target practice
[13:40]	:	trying for another world record
[13:40]	:	*checks* Looks like there was a recent websweep to remove Refer-a-Friend links. Its social successor has been discussed, but I don't know anything else past that.
[13:41]	:	I think it's discontinued or discontinuing, but there's no mention of it's existance or status. I've actually gottn money, that way, recently, but there's nothing for the historical record
[13:41]	:	I still get questions about First Land
[13:41]	:	Sorry to hear that confusion, Arawn, I'll ask our folks in that dept. about clarifying what happened.
[13:41]	:	refer-a-friend never really works, best is mouth-to-mouth talk to get something going
[13:41]	:	Theren're still be questiona about first Land, so there should still be answers.
[13:42]	:	reffer-a-friend usually ends up in 1 month tops play time and then the friend stops
[13:42]	:	The lady I got the money for, had no idea who I was
[13:42]	:	lol
[13:42]	:	lol... I think alot of people forgot they even have thier first land
[13:42]	:	In many cases Doc Team ping other teams for info to put out policies so they're ratified by the proper Subject Matter Experts (SMEs) for short.
[13:42]	:	The Wiki can certainly store historical stuff, too. There's a whole cultural aspect to it.
[13:43]	:	It's like, new people don't care that Xstreet was acquired by Linden Lab. Do trivia buffs? Likely so.
[13:43]	:	keep doing it, i have a feeling SL may become very important for future generations :p
[13:43]	:	Is there a page for dealing with stalkers?
[13:43]	:	at least the basic concept of SL though
[13:44]	:	i cant imagine future generations looking at screens for entertainment
[13:44]	:	What was XStreet, before the take over, and why and when the take over; similar issues could arise, and history has uses.
[13:44]	:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/First_land
[13:44]	:	Open a Stalkers Stub
[13:44]	:	before the take over it never really had to much problems :p
[13:44]	:	A "history" page woujld be usefull.
[13:44]	:	Why, searching for "stalkers" brings up https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Stalkers It's Resident-created so hasn't officially been approved by us. Opportunity to connect that to official docs tho.
[13:44]	:	RL calls... wished I could stay, but have to go. Have fun everyone... nice chat as always....
[13:44]	:	Take care Niky!
[13:44]	:	Niky Zenovka waves
[13:44]	:	Before the Takeover, Linden Labs wasn't at fault for every complaint
[13:44]	:	There is a cool video of what LL was doing as they started to develop what became SL: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Avatar
[13:45]	:	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Culture :)
[13:45]	:	Well later viewers may be downloads into your head CPU so you would be in SL™ in true 3D :)
[13:45]	:	What about "stalker"? (without the s)
[13:45]	:	Ah Techwolf, that brings up a great opportunity to do a redirect.
[13:45]	:	think the doc team should approve of it, at least in a good form to make people aware of what a stalker is in the eyes of LL and their lawyers
[13:45]	:	Multiple Wiki page names can all be redirected to a SINGLE page.
[13:45]	:	saves problems perhaps in the future
[13:45]	:	So, https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Stalker is blank right now... but I'll add a redirect and all of you who are curious can see what that works...
[13:45]	:	*how that works...
[13:46]	:	think you should ask scott about that
[13:46]	:	Youri, we do have a Community Standards part for harassment, which includes stalking.
[13:46]	:	think he can help out with that subject
[13:46]	:	Making a Machinima, of how to create a redirect? You might add it to the wiki under wiki
[13:46]	:	Some things can be defined but not to every wordy degree. Otherwise rules lawyering erupts and it's altogether impractical.
[13:46]	:	not everyone knows the diffenition of a stalker, it isnt equal in all countries and for that matter religions
[13:47]	:	thats why i said to make it more clear
[13:47]	:	Some things are cultural for sure, Youri, that's why we encourage Residents to consult their own lawyers and local police (as-appropriate) if something unpleasant crosses over from Second Life into real life.
[13:47]	:	we all stalk lindens at office hours!
[13:47]	:	lol
[13:47]	:	lol luf
[13:47]	:	is true
[13:47]	:	lol
[13:48]	:	I don't, Torley, I am not stalimg you, you are not that cute
[13:48]	:	stalking*
[13:48]	:	It's like the many questions we get about "Is it legal to do... ?" and we can't always answer that, there are times when someone needs to be aware of their local jurisdiction and call an attorney. There are times people just ask us that to see what we say and troll us, I'm aware of that.
[13:48]	:	I just come here to practice typo
[13:48]	:	Haha Jonit not even with my HEAD-FIN?
[13:48]	:	different contries may be searching for something other then "stalker" for finding info on how to deal with them.
[13:48]	:	no
[13:48]	:	actualy torely doesn't live that far from me
[13:48]	:	umm *looks closer*
[13:48]	:	haha
[13:48]	:	i know torley, still. LL still has a task of protecting their users in a way. specially since the servers are actually in the US. making people rather do nasty jumps from time to time
[13:48]	:	Techwolf, also it helps the Wiki is being translated into other languages. Laurent Bechir here is doing video tutorials in French, for example. :)
[13:48]	:	Typo? Is that a new fitness routine?
[13:49]	:	Youri, I didn't say we didn't have responsibility. Those are clarified in the Terms of Service.
[13:49]	:	Yes, it's Pliteas
[13:49]	:	TrO{gO DsA[M,bN HyAqR4tDc TgrOo TgYPmE WeIjTyH P;AzWqS,. *
[13:49]	:	:-)
[13:49]	:	umm that was typo, or mispelling for comedic effect
[13:49]	:	i didnt say you didnt torley :p
[13:49]	:	Jeremy Linden grins.
[13:50]	:	All too often with specialized discussions (legal, technical, etc.) you get people jumping in who haven't really read up on the subject and don't understand it. I always encourage that first but it's unlikely, like RTFM, to be a practical reality. However, focusing on who is giving helpful answers helps raise the quality-in-quantity of conversation.
[13:50]	:	only trying to make clear that it has to be clear to everyone. not just LL or those that do understand
[13:50]	:	not everyone understands lawyer talk :)
[13:50]	:	if you know what im trying to say :)
[13:50]	:	my dad was one, lol dinner times were like being in court
[13:51]	:	blaming LL for someone stalking you is the same as blaming comcast for someone internet stalking
[13:51]	:	lol, your in luck then
[13:51]	:	Touched.
[13:51]	:	We try to be consistent with the terms we use in KB articles along with Viewer terms. Since in the viewer you can file an Abuse Report, you'll find information in the KB by searching "abuse".
[13:51]	:	Touched.
[13:51]	:	point of note, anyone,presenct company accepted if there is anyone, who says "no drama" in profile, is invariably dramatic
[13:51]	:	Touched.
[13:51]	:	Good point Kate!
[13:51]	:	present*
[13:51]	:	there are however people that do not know, dont even got close to something similar. or for that matter need a lot of plain english to understand
[13:52]	:	going to listen to some music :D
[13:52]	:	Hey!
[13:52]	:	hello cen
[13:52]	:	alot of that plain english can get boiled down to a simple... file a AR
[13:53]	:	...unless you don't know what an AR is, or how to file one!
[13:53]	:	true
[13:53]	:	Youri, in some sense, that's what the Community Standards is, an easier-worded rendition of some stuff from the ToS. It's important to have both versions for (1) accessibility and (2) required precision.
[13:53]	:	That's where tags come in handy
[13:53]	:	The AR dropdown does not cover a lot of issues.
[13:53]	:	Wiki interlinks are important, being able to link a key term to its definition.
[13:53]	:	i noticed that a lot of words are still difficult to understand for some, this may need some attention, but thats only my opinion :)
[13:53]	:	And we'll never cover EVERYTHING (that's just not realistic) but catching most out what's out there and continuing to iterate serves broad usefulness.
[13:53]	:	if u wanna be ungreifABLE, be tolerant yourself, first!
[13:54]	:	oh i agree on that torley
[13:54]	:	Sometimes something really needs better explanation. Sometimes someone is just lazy.
[13:54]	:	it just may be wise to have a 'simplified' version also along side
[13:54]	:	Takes a lot of experience to figure out that out and make a cut in the shades of gray that isn't unsatisfyingly ambiguous.
[13:54]	:	Jonit Ivory nods, from whta I have seen of teh AR process, it is not difficult if you step back and without emotion file it as best you can
[13:55]	:	what*
[13:55]	:	Youri, also, there are some things we can't simplify to the degree where it's abstract as to be unenforceable, and can be loopholed too easily. E.g., "don't do bad things".
[13:55]	:	Maybe we should have sim ratings for Abuse Tolerance, to warn those who can't take a joke
[13:55]	:	darn Torley's fin is making me typo, AR Torley!
[13:55]	:	true torley
[13:55]	:	Hahaha. "i herd u liek melons?"
[13:55]	:	lol
[13:55]	:	I do
[13:55]	:	this is beside teh point
[13:56]	:	If renamed Abnormality Report, they woulnd't feel so abusive, and could be filed more easily when appropriate
[13:56]	:	Hahaha.
[13:56]	:	or Torley's "some people are just unwell report"
[13:56]	:	LOL
[13:56]	:	i've been hesitant to fill out an AR before
[13:56]	:	I like that
[13:57]	:	Abnormality report #9998347123: Furry humanoid sighted.
[13:57]	:	For someone to say Hello, another might consider this Abuse. Momentary Stalkers might be more abnormal than abusive
[13:57]	:	Jonit: problem is, usually the G-team doesnt read the whole text sended in. I been told be several g-team members that they are only allowed to use 10 minutes per case. which makes them read just the first 2 or 3 lines mostly
[13:57]	:	Why so, Euterpe?
[13:57]	:	thats why it is important to add a picture
[13:57]	:	I know a few places that ban when someone starts talking like a teen SMS message.
[13:57]	:	The AR System works well and the GTeam is doing a fantasic job
[13:57]	:	chat greif can NOT be LL's responsibility!
[13:57]	:	Well Youri, G-Team is trained, and they get a feel for issues by sheer volume
[13:57]	:	yes, they are!
[13:57]	:	the recact real quick! so yay to that!
[13:57]	:	well, i guess i just don't know enough about the procedure. for example, if someone is abusing, and i report it, I wouldn't want their account to get deleted or anything.
[13:58]	:	lol omg tekwolf dats funy
[13:58]	:	do they get warnings?
[13:58]	:	Ten Minutes is too much time, and not enough. All too often, the G-Team needs an AR
[13:58]	:	as i usually say, only really need commen sense. the rest is experience :)
[13:58]	:	Euterpe, they do. Depending on the seriousness of their offense.
[13:58]	:	does the person who filled out an AR get a follow up?
[13:58]	:	no
[13:59]	:	usually not
[13:59]	:	The new tool that griefters are useing is the AR.
[13:59]	:	Euterpe, you can check our security page for info: http://secondlife.com/policy/security/harassment.php
[13:59]	:	iz dat tru Tecch, XD (badly does a teen SMS message to make comedy) anyway teens grunt and whinge, they rately talk
[13:59]	:	If you file an AR, you're deservedly left in the dark.
[13:59]	:	unless they filled in a AR that isnt right, as in it never had need for it to be send
[13:59]	:	ahh imagine if you got feedback on ARs
[13:59]	:	Hm Kate, wasn't that sourced from our KB? It'd be neat to be able to transclude a Wiki page into that so that it could be easily updated.
[14:00]	:	oh teh abuse of it that would happen
[14:00]	:	or in any othe rcase it may cause a problem, wrongfull accusations for example
[14:00]	:	yes, one sec
[14:00]	:	yeah that has scared me before actually... there was a girl trying to fight with me one day (no, i'm not kidding, fighting animations and all) and she started follwoing me everywhere. i thought about an AR but then i thought she might do one as a backlash, so i didn't
[14:00]	:	I personally know a few that got susbinded due to being grrieft via the AR process. Griefter find the AR process very effected to grieft someone with.
[14:00]	:	Personal attention and followup is lovely. Alas due to scalability, not always practical or possible with some things.
[14:00]	:	I had one emergency come up, during G-Team Office Hours, that somebody ARred a comedy show, and the Comic got suspended, during the show
[14:00]	:	It's sourced from our "What should I do about abuse that moves outside of Second Life" article
[14:00]	:	Euterpe, I know some people have tried to persist griefing under alts and that's the wrong, stupid thing to do, so their alts were shut down too.
[14:00]	:	Thanks Kate.
[14:01]	:	agreed torley, i wish the g-team indeed did a follow up, tell what they did to solve the problem for example
[14:01]	:	isnt done now
[14:01]	:	yeah that would be nice
[14:01]	:	no, if reportes get any feedback from ARs it would encourage ARs as a revenge mechanism, they work well as they are
[14:01]	:	I wonder if Mentors could be extended to screen the ARs, and let the unscalables take the refined cases.
[14:01]	:	I dont think the GTeam gets fooled by bogus ARs
[14:02]	:	Just a automated responce back the reporter would be nice. Like "no action taken" or "temp bann" or "perm bann" is all that is needed.
[14:02]	:	it wont jonit
[14:02]	:	what if someone falsely fills out an AR?
[14:02]	:	GTeam gets fooled all the time, especially if it happens enough that they learn better.
[14:02]	:	that's grief too, hun.
[14:02]	:	the person getting the punishment will not receive the name of who complained
[14:02]	:	Yeah, fake and unsubstantiated ARs get thrown out. Repeat offenders are guilty of misrepresentation, and possibly other things... including wasting our time!
[14:02]	:	i mean, if someone did that to me and my account got deleted i'd be fuming.
[14:02]	:	yeah
[14:02]	:	false AR is a problem as well
[14:02]	:	Corn Field
[14:02]	:	There was a time, that you could report crimes to a portal and, if the crime didn't check out, you'd be investigated. I think it was in Venice
[14:02]	:	cornfield is free to be entered :p
[14:03]	:	Jonit Ivory is looking for an AR category for the Torley fin
[14:03]	:	the liklihood is close to zero, euterpe
[14:03]	:	Go to Help > Corn Report
[14:03]	:	Hahaha. ___|___
[14:03]	:	lol
[14:03]	:	Gah!
[14:03]	:	lol
[14:03]	:	id on't know vista, i've run into a lot of dramaholics and crazies
[14:03]	:	arg....I just notice its no-script here. The office hour HUD is not working here.
[14:03]	:	make sure you fly before teleporting tho, else you need to walk everything there :p
[14:03]	:	im pretty much a grief-proof bunny Euterpe.
[14:03]	:	lol
[14:04]	:	Mia did a super job on the Corn Field
[14:04]	:	for 3 lindens and a few hours of your time
[14:04]	:	i can SHOW u
[14:04]	:	how to be like that lol
[14:04]	:	Brb, I have to find a script area.
[14:04]	:	Flying in a no fly zone is easy. The Offic e Hours HUD just needs a control event
[14:04]	:	she sure did :)
[14:04]	:	i actually have a part of the cornfield in my inv :)
[14:04]	:	XLR8RRICK I agree! Mia did an outstanding job on the corn field and asylum.
[14:04]	:	uh oh, I scared the melon away
[14:04]	:	got it from blue
[14:04]	:	Vista Questi sobs
[14:04]	:	you can fly in no fly zones without a hud
[14:04]	:	Sorry, crashed. :)
[14:04]	:	time is over, isn't it.
[14:05]	:	Cutting here for the transcript :-)
[14:05]	:	Alas yes we have come to the end of our office hour for today!
 
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