Viewer Evolution User Group/Archive/2011-04-20

08:01 	Error  	File Contains No Data (bubblesort.triskaidekaphobia): hi, oz
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে 	hi all
  	XӘΛ  	hi Oz
08:02 	Oz Linden  	hi all
  	Ashiri Sands 	hi Oz
  	Wolfpup  	hey Oz
  	Oz Linden  	nice full agenda today....
  	  	storm-1100 GPU updates
  	JIRA-helper  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-1100
STORM-1100 Add new and changes to GPU_Table.txt
08:03 	Oz Linden  	I've posted a bunch of updates there that I'd appreciate review on
  	  	there are still 428 cards in our list that are not recognized
08:04 	  	out of 1593
  	  	which is a couple of hundred better than we were a couple of weeks ago, but not as good as we'd like
08:05 	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে 	Excuse my ignorance ... but why is it necessary at all to recognize cards? Don't the drivers tell the application what OpenGL extenstions etc are supported?
08:06 	Oz Linden  	I don't know... I do know that the recognition is not the only factor, but it's used to set the default graphics level (low, med, high, ultra)
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে 	ic
  	Oz Linden  	and if the card is unrecognized, by default you get a warning about it
  	Wolfpup  	Boroondas there are specific settings for certian 'types' of cards
08:07 	Oz Linden  	in addition to the gpu recognition, there's a separate feature table that is driven both by that and by some other things
  	  	it all could use some refactoring, and there are probably other improvements that could be made
  	Wolfpup  	ie Intel graphics cards will not have the same features available that say nVida or ATI will
08:08 	Oz Linden  	but for now, my goal is just to get the configuration data for the current mechanism up to date and build a unit test to keep the results stable
  	XӘΛ  	Maybe start by populating the unknowns from one of the GPU review sites?
  	Ashiri Sands 	Is that for all platforms?
08:09 	Oz Linden  	so ... there is a test viewer on the usual page (linked from Snowstorm) and if you have a new card it might be good to check
  	  	(I also have improved some of the logging around all this, and hope to do more of that before I'm done)
  	  	yes, it applies to all platforms
08:10 	  	I've got a couple of devs working through the list of unrecognized ones
  	  	we've already fixed a bunch of bugs and merged in lots of updates
08:11 	  	anyway... that's how that is going...
  	  	Windlight.....
08:12 	  	After quite a lot of testing, we've decided that the UI for this needs some reorganization, and we have a new design for that that we should be able to publish shortly (watch the list)
  	  	and I'm set up to build a project viewer for it as soon as we've got something that is usable
08:13 	  	at the moment, that branch has been partially disassembled and spread out on the garage floor :-)
  	  	Looking forward to being able to get that out, though ... it's a lot of fun
08:14 	  	so that's where that is....
08:15 	  	Media filtering.... has been on the back burner for a bit (too many balls in the air), but I have not forgotten about it and will pick it up again shortly
08:16 	  	Which brings us to STORM-313
  	JIRA-helper  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-313
STORM-313 Build parcel property is displayed incorrectly
  	Oz Linden  	and the question of automatically switching groups
08:17 	  	I've asked for (and not yet gotten) design proposals for a better parcel permissions display and group switching mechanism
08:18 	  	If we don't get a proposal from the community to review, I'll have the LL UI people do it, but it won't be for a couple of sprints at least because other things are ahead of it in the queue
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে 	to enter group-only land you don't have to have that group active, do you?
  	Oz Linden  	no, I believe that you just have to be in the group
  	  	depending on the permissions, you may need to have it active to rez things, for example
08:19 	Error  	File Contains No Data (bubblesort.triskaidekaphobia): what kind of changes are you planning to make to land permissions?
  	Oz Linden  	but changing the active group has other effects
  	  	I don't plan to make any to the permissions themselves
  	  	but right now the permissions icons are not very informative
08:20 	Error  	File Contains No Data (bubblesort.triskaidekaphobia): so it's just a UI thing? I'd prefer the UI stay hos it is, I like the 1.2x permissions layout
  	Oz Linden  	for example, the ones displayed for me right here now say that I cannot build
  	  	or rather, appear to say that... what they say is that 'Everyone' cannot build, but that's not true for me
08:21 	Error  	File Contains No Data (bubblesort.triskaidekaphobia): oh, I see what yo umean, I'll try to sketch something out for that
  	Oz Linden  	what I'd like is something that tells me the rules as they apply to me, with a way to find out what rules apply to others and possibly an indication that changing my active group would change those permissions, with an easy way to do that
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে 	+Oz
08:22 	Oz Linden  	it's not a trivial challenge
  	Twisted Laws 	not your area, but would be great if a lsl script could call llCanIRezHere() to go with the display
08:23 	Error  	File Contains No Data (bubblesort.triskaidekaphobia): I think, if the object is deeded to the right group an asks or lan perms, I forget the command, but it will return true if that object can rez
08:24 	Oz Linden  	I suppose that having that LSL capability would be handy
  	  	but you're right that isn't a viewer issue
08:25 	Twisted Laws 	i was thinking that if the server sent info to the viewer tho, that simplified the permission to rez check to go with it.
  	Oz Linden  	the viewer has the info, but LSL doesn't run in the viewer
  	Twisted Laws 	because group keys and group names aren't visible to viewer
08:26 	  	so how can the viewer determine the right group to change to
  	Oz Linden  	Item 5: VWR-25506
  	JIRA-helper  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25506
VWR-25506 Investigate restrictions on storing and exchanging inventory items within prims and notecards
  	Oz Linden  	oobscure has been doing some terrific testing on this
08:27 	  	reading it is a bit scary, actually
08:28 	  	I'm going to bring it to the attention of the Lindens who worry about assets and inventory and try to start a discussion about it
  	  	I suspect that a number of issues will come out of that
  	  	Let's see ... New Topics....
08:29 	  	Display Names not being cached properly?
  	  	STORM-941 addresses the main problem that is discussed there
  	JIRA-helper  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-941
STORM-941 IM log naming should go by SL name, not DN.
  	Oz Linden  	and that is in review now, so should be in viewer-development shortly
08:30 	  	it's not the xml file - the time there is a placeholder and is not used
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে 	xml is extensible ... why use placeholders?
  	Oz Linden  	It is a bit tricky, since fetching the DN is asynchronous, but for logging file names we'll just use the real name
08:31 	  	I guess the author thought it would be clearer to put a value like the one that should be there in the file... but I really don't know
08:32 	  	The viewer is now fairly aggressive about caching DNs, but it relies on the simulator to get the values, and the caching there is less aggresive .... I'm not sure why
08:33 	  	the time to get a DN value can vary quite a bit (from a few milliseconds to several seconds under normal conditions)
  	Wolfpup  	Oz i think the xml phraser code actualy alocated memory for each 'field' so there has to be a 'value' there or the memory dose not get alocated right
  	Oz Linden  	could be, Wolfput
  	  	pp
08:34 	  	There are a number of other minor but irritating DN issues, many of which would make good projects for an open dev to take on....
08:35 	  	like the fact that you can't filter the nearby people panel by the account name
  	  	so right now, I can't find Boroondas in that panel (or couldn't if it were more crowded), because I have no idea how to type the characters in his DN
08:36 	  	and couldn't tell if I did it right anyway, since I don't seem to have a font with glyphs for them
  	  	there are a few similar issues elsewhere
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে 	:-P
08:37 	Error  	File Contains No Data (bubblesort.triskaidekaphobia): I can't find anything in v2, that's why I"m on snowglobe
  	Oz Linden  	well, that's a different issue
  	Wolfpup  	what is intresting is the fact that Borondas's DN can play havoc with Windows notepad font sizeing
08:38 	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে 	?
  	Oz Linden  	i18n is fun :-)
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে 	unicode shouldn't change font sizes ....
08:39 	Oz Linden  	which is the end of our agenda, so the floor is open....
  	Wolfpup  	Boroondas the chars for your name in Windows Notepad is a 4pt font size
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে 	does notepad even have font sizes? I thought it's a plain text editor?
  	Wolfpup  	at least on a english us version
  	Ashiri Sands 	hmm
08:40 	Oz Linden  	maybe it's substituting the only font you've got with that glyph
  	Wolfpup  	yes it dose have font sizes and types
  	Ashiri Sands 	Does notepad even display the font?
  	Wolfpup  	on my system it dose
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে 	are you sure you aren't using wordpad or somesuch?
08:41 	Ashiri Sands 	fwiw, I see the characters perfectly in gedit
08:42 	  	I was wondering: Does the viewer rely on the OS to tell it what the GPU is?
08:43 	Oz Linden  	I have not traced it that far
  	  	I assume it's an OpenGL call
  	Wolfpup  	Borondat ill have a snapshot for you in a sek
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে 	ok
08:44 	Error  	File Contains No Data (bubblesort.triskaidekaphobia): since the floor is open, I have a question, sorry if this is an old complaint, but I've never heard LL explain the reasoning on why LL continues to develop v2. Concurrancy and new users have dropped off steadily since it's implementation, it's hurting SL, not helping so why not treat it as a sunk cost, back port it all to snowglobe and start back where we were when SL was still growing?
  	  	File Contains No Data (bubblesort.triskaidekaphobia): back port things like MOAP I mean
08:45 	Oz Linden  	That's a very very old question
  	Error  	File Contains No Data (bubblesort.triskaidekaphobia): what is the answer then?
08:46 	Wolfpup  	Boroondas > http://wilsontech.dyndns.org/SLFiles/Notpad%%20font%%20snapshot.png
  	Oz Linden  	Well, to start with, doing all that work would be a gigantic undertaking
  	  	we'd get nothing else new done for more than a year
  	Twisted Laws 	need to move forward, not backwards
  	Oz Linden  	Basically, we are where we are.
08:47 	  	it's not at all clear that any droppoff can be laid at the feet of v2
  	Wolfpup  	Boroondas you see the picture?
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে 	Wolfpup, that looks like a bug in Notepad.
  	Oz Linden  	in fact, there's good data that argues the other way
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে 	I have no idea why the following unicode would change the display size of the preceding (ASCII-only) timestamp
  	Oz Linden  	take the notepad discussion out of local chat....
08:48 	Twisted Laws 	drop-offs in users imho, is partially due to everyone moving to smartphones, tablets, etc and SL isn't there
  	Wolfpup  	it dose ot through any errors to the system logs
  	Oz Linden  	Actually, as a couple of bloggers have been commenting on this week, early indications are that some of the recent changes are having a very positive impact
08:49 	Twisted Laws 	my missus gave up her computer for an ipad2
  	Error  	File Contains No Data (bubblesort.triskaidekaphobia): I must be reading the wrong blogs
  	Ashiri Sands 	Like basic mode?
08:50 	Oz Linden  	I think that the shift to netbooks with poor graphics support is probably a larger factor than tablets, but it's harder to know why someone leaves (because they're gone) than to know why the come
  	  	Basic mode does appear (early days yet) to be improving the retention of new users
08:51 	  	but there are lots of changes going on at the same time... I don't think any one can be said to be responsible of all of any change
  	Error  	File Contains No Data (bubblesort.triskaidekaphobia): yeah, the whole iphone/ipad thing seems like a bad move for blue mars, I mean their performance there indicates there isnt' much market for VWs in the mobile market yet
  	Oz Linden  	I love my iPhone as much as anyone, but it doesn't seem like a good vw platform
08:52 	  	even if it had the horsepower, the screen is just too small to be interesting
  	Error  	File Contains No Data (bubblesort.triskaidekaphobia): as far as basic mode goes, I personally refuse to support it, I get a lot of noobs who need help on my sim, I usually have to relog to v2 to see what they do to help them out but I refuse to relog into v2 so I tell them to get pheonix or snowglobe
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে 	portable devices could (and partially have) become a key technology for augmented reality
  	Twisted Laws 	even a limited interface into SL on those platforms may have surprising results tho, imho
  	Wolfpup  	Oz iPhone and other 'tablets' do not have the needed processing power and speed needed for vw display
  	Error  	File Contains No Data (bubblesort.triskaidekaphobia): I agree with oz about the netbook problem, vws have been much less fun for me since my dekstop died about a month ago now I'm on a crappy netbook
08:53 	Twisted Laws 	intergrate in the IM and groups into one at least
  	Oz Linden  	it's an ongoing race.... the hardware people have been steadily lowering the cost and power needed for better graphics
08:55 	Wolfpup  	another issue is also the 'operating systems' for most tablets is Andriod and trying to dev the viewer for it would be a pain more than likely
  	Ashiri Sands 	I suppose the very latest netbooks might have the ability to display Second Life® well enough
  	oobscure  	i can't wait picoprojectors get embedded into mid-range smartphones so we can project hires screen on any surface
  	Error  	File Contains No Data (bubblesort.triskaidekaphobia): oh yeah the new ones perform great, mine is 2 years old though and wasnt' top of the line when I got it
  	Oz Linden  	I want a display I can have overlay the wold on my glasses :-)
08:56 	Error  	File Contains No Data (bubblesort.triskaidekaphobia): I was showing a friend at a coffee shop some things on her new netbook, it ran smooth
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে 	Oz, doesn't that already exist?
  	Wolfpup  	Oz that is aproching the real od AR
  	Oz Linden  	not at a price/convenience/resolution I want
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে 	ah, right
08:57 	oobscure  	before the meeting's over I'd like to share 2 issues I'm currently concerned about. If you spot them in action please add your feedback in JIRA. Old one about sending snapshots: SVC-5387 -- and a recent one about web profiles: VWR-25485
  	JIRA-helper  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-5387
SVC-5387 Snapshot to postcard failure
  	  	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25485
VWR-25485 When I click on a person's "Profile" to view it, my own profile comes up, even if I try again, the same issue occurs, I see my profile and not theirs.
  	Oz Linden  	but I'm watching.... :-)
  	oobscure  	vwr 25485 currently prevents me to see *any* profile .. apart mine.
08:58 	  	maybe a Linux only thing?users commenting there didn't mention o.s.
  	Oz Linden  	that's very odd, oobscure
  	Error  	File Contains No Data (bubblesort.triskaidekaphobia): I have a crazy idea for sculpties and mesh... you've probably already heard it and it's probably not workable at all but what if you could edit a sculpt map in the viewer and create the sculpt map texture in the viewer, pushing and pulling normals like in JASS and then upload the sculpt map? like, a function to make sculpties in world? probably impractical but just thought I'd throw it out there
08:59 	Oz Linden  	I can't repro it....
  	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে 	I can't repro VWR-25485
  	Oz Linden  	if you can, it might help to add log files
  	oobscure  	ok thanks.
  	Error  	File Contains No Data (bubblesort.triskaidekaphobia): sorry didn't mean to speak over you oobscure
  	Oz Linden  	An in-world scult editor has been brought up before
  	oobscure  	np, i'm done
09:00 	Twisted Laws 	if you turn off enable plugins, accept cookies, enable javascript, etc... in prefs, .... you can't see any profiles
  	Oz Linden  	but has never made the cut for things to work on
09:01 	Ashiri Sands 	and maybe whether internal or external viewer used on links?
  	Oz Linden  	there is a preference for that now, Ashiri
  	Ashiri Sands 	I know
  	  	but I'm wondering about that with regard to Linux
09:02 	Oz Linden  	ah.... but I don't think that applies to profiles anyway... they are always in the internal browser, I think
09:03 	  	Our time is up, folks.... I'm going to go look at how my new network install is coming along....
  	oobscure  	:-)
  	Oz Linden  	see you next time....
  	oobscure  	thanks oz. bye !
  	Wolfpup  	see you in a few Oz