Beta Server Office Hours/Minutes/2010-03-11

Category:Beta Server Office Hours - Minutes
This meeting was held on March 11th, 2010
= Agenda =
* Discuss resolution of previous open items.
* Updates
** I'm still pimping the email list
*** Sign up here: https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/server-beta
** 1.38.0 is being tested.
*** Kelly Linden is here again answering questions
*** https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Second_Life_Beta_Server/1.38
** Thou must not fail critical objects
*** https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Aditi/ThouMustNotFail
** Havok 7 testing is on the calendar (scheduled for Server 1.40, that could mean May)
* Releases
* Any other business
** goes here
= Resolved Items =
= Meeting Minutes =
Kelly answered questions.
Oskar talked about stuff.
= Transcript =
Transcript of Oskar Linden's Beta Server Office Hour for March 11th, 2010:
* [14:59] Kelly Linden: I broke scripts like you break a wild stallion.
* [15:00] Kelly Linden: With a whip.
* [15:00] Alexa Linden: O.o
* [15:00] Alexa Linden: ouch
* [15:00] Latif Khalifa: xD
* [15:00] Sebastean Steamweaver: Heya! D: No whipping stallions!
* [15:00] Oskar Linden: the clock strikes 3
* [15:00] Oskar Linden: ding ding din
* [15:00] Oskar Linden: g
* [15:00] Sebastean Steamweaver: I'm not into that kinda stuff!
* [15:00] Coal Gant: lmfao
* [15:00] Kelly Linden: Sorry Sebastean, I thought everyone in SL was.
* [15:00] Oskar Linden: let me start by thanking everyone for coming
* [15:00] Sebastean Steamweaver: lol
* [15:01] Latif Khalifa: rezzes his evil pigeon :P
* [15:01] Oskar Linden: and here is the agenda: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Beta_Server_Office_Hours
* [15:01] RedMokum Bravin: Ouch!
* [15:01] Oskar Linden: if there is something you want to talk about please add it to the any other business section
* [15:01] Kelly Linden: hunh, I dunno if I've seen that specific error yet.
* [15:01] Ceawlin Steamweaver: ( Grumble, I have to go at quarter past again. I apologize in advance for being rude and leaving early. ;< )
* [15:02] Oskar Linden: np Ceawlin
* [15:02] Oskar Linden: did anyone notice that the aditi login screen had changed?
* [15:02] Maestro Linden: depends. is your bare skin grey? :)
* [15:02] Oskar Linden: for the first time in like 2 years!!!
* [15:02] Sebastean Steamweaver: I was in too much of a hurry to get here!
* [15:03] RedMokum Bravin: still same MOTD though
* [15:03] Sebastean Steamweaver: Simon :D
* [15:03] Oskar Linden: the request I made 6 months ago to allow me control over editing that page on the fly finally made it live
* [15:03] Sebastean Steamweaver: So glad to have you with us :)
* [15:03] Oskar Linden: makes a note to update the MOTD
* [15:03] RedMokum Bravin: Oh wow :-)
* [15:03] Simon Linden: Hello - very slow updates today, can barely see anything
* [15:03] Ceawlin Steamweaver: I missed the Oskar Dance, didn't I? :s
* [15:03] Oskar Linden: nope
* [15:03] Kelly Linden: looks like it is still going on to me
* [15:03] Oskar Linden: still dancing ceawlin
* [15:03] Ceawlin Steamweaver: Oh yay!
* [15:03] Latif Khalifa: hello Simon, the home maker
* [15:04] Sebastean Steamweaver: Oskar's shark has turned a darker gray.
* [15:04] Oskar Linden: so, hopefully I will be able to use the login page on ADITI for more live updates and statuses
* [15:04] Another Hax: that iwll be handy
* [15:04] Oskar Linden: which I am very happy about
* [15:04] Oskar Linden: no more need to update the MOTD
* [15:04] Latif Khalifa: cool
* [15:04] Opensource Obscure: hello everybody
* [15:04] Oskar Linden: for which there is no tool and I have to do in the bd by hand heh
* [15:04] Oskar Linden: db
* [15:04] Kelly Linden: Thanks for your note OO
* [15:05] Oskar Linden: I want to pimp the email list again: https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/server-beta
* [15:05] Oskar Linden: I know most of you are on there
* [15:06] Oskar Linden: but if you know anyone who would like to be on there forward that to them
* [15:06] Oskar Linden: this is our current list of found bugs for 1.38
* [15:06] Oskar Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa?mode=hide&requestId=12660
* [15:06] Oskar Linden: if you know of any issues get them filed ASAP
* [15:07] Eddi Decosta: hi hi 
* [15:07] Kelly Linden: got a couple fixes to put out in the next day or two.
* [15:07] Oskar Linden: be sure to look through that list so you're not filing duplicates and wasting your time
* [15:07] Oskar Linden: I'll be updating the email thread with new versions we put out
* [15:07] Oskar Linden: Maestro, why don't you give a quick synopsis of where you are with testing
* [15:08] Eddi Decosta: Hi Alexa ! 
* [15:08] Eddi Decosta: hello Oskar!! 
* [15:08] Oskar Linden: maestro?
* [15:09] Maestro Linden: oh, sorry, was in another window
* [15:09] Oskar Linden: aha
* [15:09] Sebastean Steamweaver: "I'm sorry, Maestro Linden is not he"- *coughs*
* [15:09] Maestro Linden: We have some good LSL script crashers
* [15:09] Latif Khalifa: shows unresolved issues
* [15:09] Talisien Llewellyn: Unfortunatly, I have to go.Have a nice day everyone
* [15:09] Maestro Linden: including a mode that can lead to sim crash if you derez the crashed script
* [15:09] Eddi Decosta: i relog
* [15:09] Oskar Linden: l8r) Talisien
* [15:10] Maestro Linden: oh um, there's a fairly common script permissions issue, which we have in JIRA as SVC-5521
* [15:10] JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-5521: 
* [#SVC-5521] lose already: granted PERMISSION_TRIGGER_ANIMATION permission. Apparently in the changed event.
* [15:11] Kelly Linden: The sim crash / mono crash we have a fix ready for the next beta update.
* [15:11] Kelly Linden: (at least for 1 of them)
* [15:11] Gooden Uggla: feels like a proud father (of a griefing tool)
* [15:11] Kelly Linden: For the script permissions issue we are reverting the existing change and will work on a new change for a subsequent server version.
* [15:11] Ceawlin Steamweaver: Hasn't that always happened? :3 I remember having to work around that on Agni a while back, I think... :3
* [15:11] Lonely Bluebird: I was just reading the animation permissions jira, is that related to the fix to prevent permanent capture of avatar animation permissions?
* [15:12] Kelly Linden: lonely: yea
* [15:12] Lonely Bluebird: Ah ok, thought so, good to hear that's coming out soon.
* [15:12] Skills Hak: that'll break some "content"
* [15:12] Another Hax: is perms revoked when avatar leaves the sim?
* [15:12] Kelly Linden: We have ideas for a better fix, but it became apparent it was too much to cram into what time we have left for 1.38
* [15:13] Lonely Bluebird: No Another, the issue is perms are never revoked. I can have you sit on a prim, then take it to my inventory, that gives me the ability to animate you whenever I wish.
* [15:13] Kelly Linden: We are currently thinking of a delay - after you stand the object has a certain amount of time to continue to animate your avatar.
* [15:13] Another Hax: only if I'm in the same sim though, and that script isnt reset
* [15:13] Kelly Linden: Current consideration is 'duration of a temp object' ~2 mins.
* [15:13] Sebastean Steamweaver: That would allow for custom "standing" animations.
* [15:14] Latif Khalifa: only with sit grated permissions?
* [15:14] Another Hax: digreses, just wondering how they fixed that.. i cant see a way
* [15:14] Latif Khalifa: granted even
* [15:14] Kelly Linden: yup, and teleporters with custom animations
* [15:14] Kelly Linden: and *only* for permissions implicitly granted from sit (ie you didn't click a blue box)
* [15:14] Sebastean Steamweaver: Woot! *pats his ugly teleport sculpt prim*
* [15:14] Latif Khalifa: sounds like a good plan
* [15:14] Another Hax: nods
* [15:15] Maestro Linden: With the current version of the simulator on aditi, 1.38.0.202539, LSL permissions in attachments and seats are revoked immediately, which leads to annoying error messages when you stand up from a poseball, etc
* [15:15] Skills Hak: why not generally revoke perms on stand?
* [15:15] Skills Hak: most of the griefer toys work with invisible prims you sit on by accident via 1-click-sit
* [15:15] Kelly Linden: skills: what maestro just said
* [15:15] Skills Hak: oh :)
* [15:15] Ceawlin Steamweaver: ( Bye all, and GL with the 1.38 debugging! I'll read the logs when I get home, I guess. ;< )
* [15:15] Lonely Bluebird: Because that could interfere with stopping animations.
* [15:15] Oskar Linden: l8r) Ceawlin
* [15:16] Sebastean Steamweaver: Take care
* [15:16] Maestro Linden: (what happens is that your scripted poseball, will try to use llStopAnimation() to stop the posball animation when the 'changed' event is triggered
* [15:16] Kelly Linden: it is nice to be able to clean up your animations or have a fancy unsit animation or tp in animation and all those need to work after you are no longer sitting.
* [15:16] Sebastean Steamweaver: Yes Meastro, my sit things do that.
* [15:16] Maestro Linden: and because the animation permission has already been revoked at that point, you see some annoying error message about PERMISSION_TRIGGER_ANIMATION)
* [15:17] Kelly Linden: we think a grace period will cover most existing content, though it is still possible some rare cases will break.
* [15:17] Kelly Linden: pushing the fix to a later simulator version gives us more time to message and test the change.
* [15:17] Lonely Bluebird: Just to clarify: Will taking an object to inventory "Freeze" the grace period?
* [15:17] Skills Hak: how about a timeout after standing up
* [15:17] Lonely Bluebird: Or will the timeout still take effect if the object is in agent inventory?
* [15:17] Kelly Linden: Lonely Bluebird: I don't know. I'm thinking not.
* [15:18] Lonely Bluebird: If permissions are not revoked when the object is taken to inventory and re-rezzed the stealing permissions problem will still exist.
* [15:18] Sebastean Steamweaver: Ideally, I think permissions granted from sit would be revoked on rez.
* [15:18] Kelly Linden: skills: that is exactly what we are talking about. a grace period after you stand up where the object can still animate you
* [15:18] Skills Hak: imma go grab some coffee haha
* [15:18] Kelly Linden: lonely / sebastean: yeah, current thinking is to still clear when the object is de-rezed.
* [15:18] Liisa Runo: agrees with Sebastian
* [15:18] Lonely Bluebird: What Sebastean said, revoking on-rez would be one way to go about it.
* [15:19] Another Hax: random; could give perms a timer limit, able to be defined.. with a max setting of 24hours before auto clearing perms
* [15:19] Kelly Linden: I'm not quite clear on the difference (from a use perspective) of it happening on de-rez or rez, but from a code perspective the former is easy the later near impossible.
* [15:19] Sebastean Steamweaver: Hmm
* [15:19] Another Hax: thinks of the loop an trashes previous comment
* [15:19] Lonely Bluebird: Doing it on-rez rather than on derez would also make all of the currently captured permission boxes useless, which would certainly be a boon.
* [15:20] Kelly Linden: AH!, thanks lonely that was the lightbulb I needed. I'll note that.
* [15:20] Sebastean Steamweaver: Lonely, there are a limited number of those, though, and it can only hold permissions for one person.
* [15:20] Sebastean Steamweaver: There might be other ways to prevent current exploits from being used though.
* [15:21] Maestro Linden: in any case, if you have LSL scripts which involve special permissions, you can always run llGetPermissions() to make sure that the script still has the permissions you think it should have
* [15:21] Kelly Linden: unfortunately the reason on_rez is hard directly ties to that. so yeah, anyway don't want to hijack the whole meeting.
* [15:21] Kelly Linden: look for more communication on this soon.
* [15:21] Yann Dufaux: well my av is ok after 5 relog ..
* [15:21] Yann Dufaux: sorry
* [15:21] Yann Dufaux: hi all 
* [15:22] Oskar Linden: no this is great
* [15:22] Oskar Linden: now that everyone has had a week to mess with the new stuff I wanted you here again Kelly to answer any more questions any one has
* [15:22] Another Hax: on_rez would also only prevent people picking up object
* [15:23] Kelly Linden: I'm sorry I just looked at my work load, and I'm gonna need to take an early exit from this meeting.
* [15:23] Kaluura Boa: Wow! I just rezzed...
* [15:23] Liisa Runo: also, would be cool to have some kind of owner check, so objects owned by me could keep my perms forever if i want to
* [15:23] Kelly Linden: I can cover anything else briefly but I'm also on Oskar's email list if you want more discussion
* [15:23] Latif Khalifa: Kelly, go implement PRIM_NAME and PRIM_DESC for params for 1.40 xD
* [15:23] Oskar Linden: ur heading out at 3:30 kelly?
* [15:23] Kelly Linden: Liisa - we are thinking about that but think maybe the grace period covers most cases.
* [15:24] Liisa Runo: most cases is not enough
* [15:24] Kelly Linden: liisa can you email me any existing content you think would really benefit from that
* [15:24] Sebastean Steamweaver: Kelly, I had a quick question. I sent you an email about the resize loop using llSLPPF/llGLPP - were you able to take a look at that? I also posted my findings to the JIRAs for llSetObjectScale.
* [15:24] Kelly Linden: oskar: as close to it as I can
* [15:24] Oskar Linden: liisa ar eyou on the group mailing list?
* [15:24] Kelly Linden: Sebastean that was a crazy long email
* [15:24] Liisa Runo: mail? isnt that some old technology the predates SL
* [15:24] Kelly Linden: I skimmed it, andrew read it
* [15:24] Sebastean Steamweaver: Yeah, I'm sorry about that, there was a lot.
* [15:25] Sebastean Steamweaver: Andrew sent me some replies, I added his notes to the bottom of the JIRA.
* [15:25] Kelly Linden: He seems to like it so that counts for something.
* [15:25] Kelly Linden: I dunno where it fits on the schedule though.
* [15:25] Sebastean Steamweaver: His notes are much more brief than mine :)
* [15:25] Kelly Linden: While the getlink/setlinkfast aren't great they seem at least as good as a script in each prim
* [15:25] Sebastean Steamweaver: If you have time to check it out, should only take a minute or two to read his notes.
* [15:25] Another Hax: too much info can be a negative
* [15:25] Latif Khalifa: PRIM_NAME and PRIM_DESC should take no time at all :)
* [15:25] Kelly Linden: I did read his notes
* [15:26] Kelly Linden: latif: llLinkParticleSystem and llSetLinkTextureAnim combined were easier to implement then PRIM_TEXT
* [15:26] Sebastean Steamweaver: A script in each prim can return local coordinates for child prims. llGetLinkPP can only return region coordinates.
* [15:26] Yann Dufaux: /tab This is a Tiny invasion!! 
* [15:26] Kelly Linden: latif: someone over-engineered the back end of that primparms system
* [15:26] Another Hax: it provokes ones desire to glaze over things
* [15:26] Sebastean Steamweaver: There are also issues with linkability.
* [15:26] Latif Khalifa: hehe
* [15:26] Kelly Linden: Sebastean: yeah, I'd like to add PRIM_POS_LOCAL and PRIM_POS_GLOBAL too
* [15:27] Maestro Linden: actually, I wrote a 1-script object resizer script in LSL, and it works pretty well
* [15:27] Kelly Linden: (that had their explicit behavior instead of the hybrid PRIM_POS we currently have)
* [15:27] Kaluura Boa: And PRIM_ROT_LOCAL?
* [15:27] Sebastean Steamweaver: Maestro, can it avoid setting prims beyond the link limit?
* [15:27] Kelly Linden: quaternions should rot in hell.
* [15:27] Maestro Linden: I just had to translate sim coordinates into linkset coordinates by subtracting the root prim's position and dividing that by its rotation
* [15:27] Kelly Linden: I mean, yeah we need to get something similar for ROTs
* [15:27] Sebastean Steamweaver: Yes Kelly, I agree entirely >.>
* [15:28] Ima Mechanique: Maestro, could I get a copy of that resizer?
* [15:28] Sebastean Steamweaver: Maestro, you can do that, but I found that in moving objects, that isn't reliable.
* [15:28] Kaluura Boa: Having new constants would be an easy way to fix the borked rotations
* [15:28] Sebastean Steamweaver: I tried writing a script using the loop myself.
* [15:28] Kelly Linden: resizing while moving is just asking for trouble
* [15:28] Maestro Linden: sebastean: I added some checks to make sure that prims don't go below 1cm or bigger than 10m, but I didn't do anything to check linking rules
* [15:28] Yann Dufaux: Oskar, i see in my relog the fixes for mono crash? its true?
* [15:28] Latif Khalifa: Maestro, difficult to do for attachmetns such as prim hair resizers without local rot and pos
* [15:28] Sebastean Steamweaver: Linking rules were a major issue I ran into, because a script could set a prim outside its linking limits during the loop, and it wouldn't know it.
* [15:28] Oskar Linden: thought so Yann
* [15:29] Kelly Linden: what should local pos return for a root prim?
* [15:29] Maestro Linden: would do a demo if he could actually create a script
* [15:29] Kelly Linden: 0,0,0 ?
* [15:29] Sebastean Steamweaver: Yes Kelly, that would make sene
* [15:29] Sebastean Steamweaver: sense*
* [15:29] Kelly Linden: just checking.
* [15:29] Yann Dufaux: 0,0,0 its mine jiras no?
* [15:29] Another Hax: not really, not if that root prim is not at pos 0,0,0
* [15:29] Sebastean Steamweaver: Andrew's second observation was that doing the loop was harder on the phsyics system.
* [15:29] Library Chair: Hello, Avatar!
* [15:29] Library Chair: Hello, Avatar!
* [15:29] Another Hax: localpos*
* [15:29] Kelly Linden: another hax: well if you have both POS_REGION and POS_LOCAL ....
* [15:29] Library Chair: DEBUG: Free memory: 12050B
* [15:29] Library Chair: Say the scale that you want in channel 4 chat (e.g. "/4
* 0.8"), relative to the original scale.
* [15:30] Another Hax: ah right
* [15:30] Library Chair: Setting 21 prims to scale0.500000..
* [15:30] Library Chair: ..done
* [15:30] Kelly Linden: having the root prim return <0,0,0> makes it really consistent.
* [15:30] Yann Dufaux: 
* [15:30] [[User:JIRA-helper: [#SVC-3871|JIRA-helper: [#SVC-3871]]: 
* [15:30] Yann Dufaux: here i think 
* [15:30] Oskar Linden: ok guys
* [15:30] Oskar Linden: kelly has to run
* [15:31] Sebastean Steamweaver: ""Even if the long looped method were ok as far as
* LSL performance goes, it is more expensive for the physics engine.
* The "atomic uniform scaling" is also atomic when it comes to updating
* the physics engine. Whereas individual scales and translations of
* child prims spread over several simulator frames could cause the
* object's shape to be rebuilt several times instead of just once. "
* [15:31] Oskar Linden: thanks so umch kelly for stopping in today!
* [15:31] Latif Khalifa: thanks for your time kelly :)
* [15:31] Kelly Linden: sure thing, sorry to bail early.
* [15:31] Another Hax: /I've only glazed over the new functions/constants =
* [15:31] Kelly Linden: I watch the list or email me directly - kelly@lindenlab.com
* [15:31] Xugu Madison: See you Kelly!
* [15:31] Simon Linden: I thought that jira looked familiar
* [15:31] Sebastean Steamweaver: No worries, take care Kelly :) Thanks :)
* [15:31] Skills Hak: seeya
* [15:31] Kelly Linden: list is better - I'm not gonna send you anything directly I wouldn't say publicly anyway.
* [15:31] Yann Dufaux: ok , kelly
* [15:32] Yann Dufaux: but Oskar where i can test the SVC-3871 ??
* [15:32] Kelly Linden: everyone can jump on simon linden now, I just heard him say something.
* [15:33] Yann Dufaux: the region on the jira is closed
* [15:33] Sebastean Steamweaver: lol
* [15:33] Sebastean Steamweaver: "Look! Shiny object!"
* [15:33] Simon Linden: Yep, Yann's bug is one I fixed a year ago :)
* [15:33] Yann Dufaux: ok Simon 
* [15:33] Latif Khalifa: i hear simon linden wrote group chat :P </evil>
* [15:33] Latif Khalifa: muhaha
* [15:33] Oskar Linden: all hail simon linden
* [15:33] Sebastean Steamweaver: Oh dear. Simon, I will have to hurt you. :( I'm sorry.
* [15:34] Oskar Linden: hey simon. I didn't see you were here
* [15:34] Oskar Linden: welcome
* [15:34] Oskar Linden: implores everyone to be nice
* [15:34] Yann Dufaux: Simon: the jira is allway set is fixe pending 
* [15:34] Simon Linden: That one is hard to set up ... the objects are attachments that somehow got disconnected from AVs and that mixed up state crashed the viewer
* [15:34] Xugu Madison: Nice? But I only just got the special knives out of storage...
* [15:34] Simon Linden: Hey Oskar :)
* [15:35] Oskar Linden: wow 1.25 server... was I even working here then?
* [15:35] Oskars Throne: You are not authorized for Oskar's Throne
* [15:35] Oskars Throne: You have 5 seconds until you are booted.
* [15:35] Oskars Throne: 5
* [15:35] Oskars Throne: 4
* [15:35] Oskars Throne: 3
* [15:35] Oskars Throne: 2
* [15:35] Oskars Throne: 1
* [15:35] Skills Hak: haha
* [15:35] Oskar Linden: close one yann
* [15:35] Oskars Throne: You are not authorized for Oskar's Throne
* [15:35] Oskars Throne: You have 5 seconds until you are booted.
* [15:35] Oskars Throne: 5
* [15:35] Oskars Throne: 4
* [15:35] Oskars Throne: 3
* [15:35] Oskars Throne: 2
* [15:35] Oskars Throne: 1
* [15:35] Maestro Linden: .7
* [15:35] Yann Dufaux: loll no way, dont try to fax me at 4000m LOL
* [15:35] Latif Khalifa: lol
* [15:35] Oskar Linden: fax you?
* [15:35] Oskar Linden: who faxes?
* [15:35] Another Hax: llInstantMessage(FoolOnsitTarget
* [15:35] Lonely Bluebird: What's a fax?
* [15:35] Latif Khalifa: linden lab
* [15:35] Latif Khalifa: :P
* [15:35] Lonely Bluebird: ^
* [15:35] Yann Dufaux: teleportation = fax (kidding)
* [15:36] Yann Dufaux: :P
* [15:36] Oskar Linden: anyway
* [15:36] Oskar Linden: so we've got about a week left to get any fixes into 1.38 before we need to start buttoning things up
* [15:36] Oskar Linden: so anything you guys find that is new to 1.38 file it in jira and message it to the email group
* [15:36] Library Chair: Touched.
* [15:36] Library Chair: Touched.
* [15:36] Oskar Linden: we'll work to get ti fixed
* [15:37] Xugu Madison: Any chances of getting memory usage display turned into a script count until it's not actually a fixed amount per script?
* [15:37] Latif Khalifa: when will the permission reverted 1.38 be on the aditi?
* [15:37] Oskar Linden: soon Latif
* [15:38] Oskar Linden: I'll update the group on agni and the email list when we ge t anew version
* [15:38] Oskar Linden: and the reelase notes will be updated
* [15:38] Maestro Linden: kelly might be working on that right now
* [15:39] Lonely Bluebird: Ooh money!
* [15:39] Skills Hak: beta dollars
* [15:39] Lonely Bluebird: How do I turn these into USD?
* [15:39] Skills Hak: that'd be fun
* [15:40] Gooden Uggla: you can only get wooden nickels for them...
* [15:40] Lonely Bluebird: It's a shame I couldn't bring all the onyxbots here.
* [15:40] Lonely Bluebird: :(
* [15:40] Xugu Madison: Lonely, the same way you turn monopoly money into USD
* [15:40] Oskar Linden: it's not a shame
* [15:40] Oskar Linden: it's agood thing
* [15:40] Lonely Bluebird: Counterfeiting?
* [15:40] Yann Dufaux: loll i have more of agni here lol
* [15:40] Lonely Bluebird: Last time I did that with L$ I got banned :(
* [15:40] Oskar Linden: I know
* [15:40] Lonely Bluebird: I should have known that it doesn't come in 13L$ bills...
* [15:41] Lonely Bluebird: When counterfeiting it's important to get the denominations right.
* [15:41] Another Hax: aka know what you are doing
* [15:42] Oskar Linden: so there's not really much more to talk about today
* [15:42] Oskar Linden: nothing new on the havok 7 front
* [15:42] Yann Dufaux: Lonely, you can use the l4 here to test some thing in textures upload or sculpty textures upload before the true upload textures in agni 
* [15:42] Xugu Madison: Any chance of replacing memory usage stats with a script count until memory usage per script isn't fixed?
* [15:42] Yann Dufaux: l$ * sorry my typos 
* [15:42] Lonely Bluebird: Nah I have enough L$ on agni for uploads heh
* [15:42] Lonely Bluebird: Not to mention I can just do a temporary upload to test out textures and stuff...
* [15:43] Oskar Linden: what xugu?
* [15:43] Skills Hak: oh reminds me
* [15:43] Skills Hak: i still havent checked out that ui
* [15:44] Lonely Bluebird: :<
* [15:44] Xugu Madison: Oskar, at the moment each script uses a fixed amount of memory; 32kb for LSL2, 64kb for Mono. That means even the smallest script shows as using its' full available quota. Essentially, this makes the memory usage stats just a script count...
* [15:44] Lonely Bluebird: Why
* [15:44] Latif Khalifa: you need to be parcel owner too see it working fully
* [15:44] Latif Khalifa: except for your own attachments
* [15:44] Xugu Madison: with no diffentiation between efficient scripts, and memory eating abominations...
* [15:44] Another Hax: to count script in a crreation i had to code a script to deliver itself to each child prim =[ why isjnt it a neat lil value on my client somewhere
* [15:45] Xugu Madison: so until we can actually lower the allocation, would be good to make it a count of number of scripts, to avoid people thinking scripts have identical memory usage
* [15:45] Lonely Bluebird: Another: Emerald has a feature to allow you to count scripts in a linkset or on an avatar >_>
* [15:45] Oskar Linden: I don't think kelly has a plan for that yet
* [15:45] Skills Hak: child prim script copy would be easy to add
* [15:45] Another Hax: Yes yes emerald is just grand
* [15:46] Another Hax: Majority still use sl client, thus the majoirty of my user base does.. thus i must use what my majority does
* [15:46] Maestro Linden: Xugu, we expect that to have 'small scripts' out sometime after 1.40, which will allow you to specify a smaller limit on the total memory a mono script can use
* [15:46] Maestro Linden: so then you'll be able to have your small Mono script only show up as 4KB or whatnot, rather than the full 64KB
* [15:47] Sebastean Steamweaver: Maestro, a big concern has been new functions to accompany that, to help us determine just how much memory we ought to alot for our scripts, instead of going by generalities.
* [15:47] Another Hax: that would be great
* [15:47] Skills Hak: ooo nice
* [15:47] Latif Khalifa: i have a lot of scripts like that
* [15:47] Xugu Madison: Maestro, so the issue is the in-between stage, as people see total usage and panic...
* [15:47] Latif Khalifa: touch-to-give landmark needs 2k lol
* [15:47] Maestro Linden: well, this will also be available before there's any script limit enforcement, for sure
* [15:47] Latif Khalifa: excellent
* [15:48] Xugu Madison: Also reminds me; it doesn't show Mono bytecode sharing does it? Because that's going to mean everyone dashes from shared Mono scripts back to LSL2 (which will show half the memory usage at the moment)
* [15:48] Ima Mechanique: For once llFreeMemory() will actually give a useful value. The low point memory reached, so we can use that to approximate how much memory to reserve
* [15:48] Latif Khalifa: i have a ton of stuff to repackage lol
* [15:48] Another Hax: last i heard was aplril first, then i heard early april.. any sign of when exactly we will have these new tools?
* [15:48] Another Hax: *
* [15:48] Sebastean Steamweaver: Maestro, is there any chance that we'll get a function to, or display of some kind to, show the maximum amount of memory a script is capable of using? I don't want to be wrong on a guestimate of how much memory a product of mine can use, and just have an abusive user break it.
* [15:48] Maestro Linden: nope, bytecode sharing isn't currently taken into account
* [15:49] Sebastean Steamweaver: Even if the user is abusive, it's always the content creator's fault.
* [15:49] Maestro Linden: Sebastean: I'm not sure - maybe Babbage's OH is a good place to ask that :)
* [15:49] Latif Khalifa: what would be extremely useful would be CAP that would let viewer query total reserverd memory for an object
* [15:49] Latif Khalifa: so we can see memory use on edit floater
* [15:49] Latif Khalifa: much in the same way we can see prim count today
* [15:49] Oskars Throne: You are not authorized for Oskar's Throne
* [15:49] Oskars Throne: You have 5 seconds until you are booted.
* [15:50] Oskars Throne: 5
* [15:50] Oskars Throne: 4
* [15:50] Oskars Throne: 3
* [15:50] Xugu Madison: is regrettably frequently busying during Babbage's hour, but tries to make it
* [15:50] Oskars Throne: 2
* [15:50] Oskars Throne: 1
* [15:50] Simon Linden: Different than llGetFreeMemory() ?
* [15:50] Maestro Linden: yeah, right now you'd have to attach the object (or be the parcel owner/estate manager) to get the script info of an object
* [15:50] Latif Khalifa: Simon, I want to be able to see memory usage of an object, like I can see prim count
* [15:50] Sebastean Steamweaver: Yes, llGetFreeMemory only returns a history. It doesn't calculate a "max" of memory a script is capable of using.
* [15:50] Xugu Madison: Simon; llGetFreeMemory is a good start, but it would be helpful to not actually have to write scripted diagnostics for this stuff...
* [15:51] Latif Khalifa: Maestro, I would like to see it for all object, not just my own
* [15:51] Sebastean Steamweaver: Exactly
* [15:51] Simon Linden: ah, I see. That makes sense
* [15:51] Sebastean Steamweaver: Because diagnostics can't tell us everything.
* [15:51] Latif Khalifa: Maestro, for a shopping situration
* [15:51] Oskars Throne: You are not authorized for Oskar's Throne
* [15:51] Oskars Throne: You have 5 seconds until you are booted.
* [15:51] Oskars Throne: 5
* [15:51] Oskars Throne: 4
* [15:51] Oskars Throne: 3
* [15:51] Oskars Throne: 2
* [15:51] Oskars Throne: 1
* [15:51] Latif Khalifa: i go to a store, see a device on display, i can see how many prims is gonna use
* [15:51] Another Hax: one office hour kind of accomodates half the world.. wuld be good if all the world could participate.. i too am sad at missing babbages hour 99%
* [15:51] Latif Khalifa: would be very useful to be able to see how much memory it's gonna cost me too
* [15:52] Xugu Madison: are there any US-based scripting Lindens we can mug for information? :)
* [15:52] Maestro Linden: *cough*kelly*cough*
* [15:52] Sebastean Steamweaver: Andrew deals with scripts, and Kelly.
* [15:52] Oskar Linden: yeah
* [15:52] Oskar Linden: kelly
* [15:52] Oskar Linden: not andrew so much
* [15:53] Another Hax: this office hour is always during my lunch break~ wo0hoo
* [15:53] Oskar Linden: andrew works on maintennance bug fixes
* [15:53] Sebastean Steamweaver: o.0
* [15:53] Xugu Madison: Someone get Kelly to do an OH :)
* [15:53] Latif Khalifa: andrew more for stuff that invole physics
* [15:53] Sebastean Steamweaver: We talk about scripting at Andrew's office hours all the time.
* [15:53] Sebastean Steamweaver: Granted, it does usually involve physics or positions or whatnot.
* [15:53] Oskar Linden: he know spretty much everything
* [15:53] Skills Hak: rodney should have office hours too
* [15:53] Skills Hak: would be interesting to talk about class 7 and 64 bit etc
* [15:54] Sebastean Steamweaver: It'd be interesting to talk to an animation linden.
* [15:54] Oskar Linden: ?
* [15:54] Latif Khalifa: he got eaten by lawyer linden :P
* [15:54] Lonely Bluebird: Yeah I'd love to know when the rest of the .anim functionality is going to be exposed to the end user.
* [15:54] Yann Dufaux: do you have more info in french about the limitations of script?
* [15:54] Sebastean Steamweaver: Who did Lawyer Linden get eaten by?
* [15:54] Another Hax: perminant office, staffed by 3 or 4 lindens.. any user can drop in an query things
* [15:55] Simon Linden: We need a better chat bot for that
* [15:55] Xugu Madison: :)
* [15:55] Another Hax: crazy idea i know.. what linden would willingly take that job =]
* [15:55] Simon Linden: "Why yes, tell me about why you want megaprims..."
* [15:55] Xugu Madison: grins "We still think it's a good user group meeting if they don't actually try burning us at the stake..."
* [15:55] Sebastean Steamweaver: Gladly Simon :D
* [15:56] Sebastean Steamweaver: Since you asked...
* [15:56] Sebastean Steamweaver: ;)
* [15:56] Yann Dufaux: Simon, loo
* [15:56] Yann Dufaux: look
* [15:56] Lonely Bluebird: Mmmm..megaprims.
* [15:56] Latif Khalifa: what was stick's sim?
* [15:56] Sebastean Steamweaver: Whose?
* [15:56] Latif Khalifa: the dragon one
* [15:56] Sebastean Steamweaver: Stickmans?
* [15:56] Sebastean Steamweaver: Aggro
* [15:56] Skills Hak: "I am glad you find this amusing"
* [15:56] Hypatia Callisto: they save prims :D easier to do big builds with less prim :D
* [15:56] Lonely Bluebird: Can you guys just uncap prim size and maybe change the variable used for scale to a U64?
* [15:57] Kaluura Boa: Every time I hear the word "megaprim", I must ask: When will the 10m limit be lifted?
* [15:57] Yann Dufaux: auto return
* [15:57] Yann Dufaux: geez
* [15:57] Latif Khalifa: yeah, set draw distance to 512 and visit Aggro for some trully awesome views
* [15:57] Latif Khalifa: who has not been there is missing a lot
* [15:57] Yann Dufaux: this 20 x 20 never cause the lags on the region 
* [15:57] Oskar Linden: everyone seems to be able to work fine inside the constraints we have so far
* [15:57] Sebastean Steamweaver: I have an absolutely amazing screenshot from aggro somewhere.
* [15:57] Latif Khalifa: Oskar, LOL
* [15:57] Oskar Linden: if we give you everything you want no one will come to these OH's
* [15:57] Lonely Bluebird: Rofl
* [15:58] Another Hax: maybe when the collision system is beta.. larger prims wont stress the server as much
* [15:58] Sebastean Steamweaver: Yes Oskar, because we have ways to work outside them, like SALT hud :P
* [15:58] Kaluura Boa: Pretty much all sizes are available in mega... We use what we have
* [15:58] Oskar Linden: well there you go
* [15:58] Oskar Linden: you have a solution
* [15:58] Sebastean Steamweaver: But try finding a specific size you need :P
* [15:58] RedMokum Bravin: Oh... I was going to ask for avatars with genitals, like in Red Light Center. :-p
* [15:58] Latif Khalifa: no seriously, go visit Aggro
* [15:58] Lonely Bluebird: How about you just enable raw object uploads again for a few days? I'll solve the megaprim issue o.o
* [15:58] Skills Hak: i dont rly need more megaprims either
* [15:58] Kaluura Boa: Except when we want a size that isn't available
* [15:58] Oskar Linden: a few prims here a few textures there and bam... genitals
* [15:58] Latif Khalifa: <- 30k prims there
* [15:59] Lonely Bluebird: 
* [15:59] Another Hax: Fascinating
* [15:59] Lonely Bluebird: That site has most of them
* [15:59] Oskar Linden: well in the last minute we have I give the floor to Lonely Bluebird
* [15:59] Liisa Runo: yea, awesome service, but still missing some basic stuff, like 64x128x0.5
* [15:59] Lonely Bluebird: It has everything SALT contains, plus a bunch of specialty ones that were never released in freebie packs.
* [15:59] Another Hax: I will risk missing anything important by leaving now =
* [15:59] Yann Dufaux: honesty i love my 20 x 20 .5 to do some commecial building floor 
* [15:59] Oskar Linden: and done
* [15:59] Oskar Linden: thanks lonely
* [16:00] Oskar Linden: meeting is over
* [16:00] Lonely Bluebird: Wait what?