Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2011.03.11

Simulator_User_Group
Prev 2011.03.08	Next 2011.03.15
== List of Speakers ==
Andrew Linden 	Arawn Spitteler 	Arcane Laval
Ashiri Sands 	catseye Fride 	Cummere Mayo
DogWomble Dollinger	Draconis Neurocam 	Fancy Greeter
Fenix Eldritch 	Flip Idlemind 	JayR Cela
Jonathan Yap 	Kadah Coba 	Kaluura Boa
Kelly Linden 	LadyMoon Merlin 	Latif Khalifa
Liisa Runo 	Maestro Linden 	Maggie Darwin
Nicki Koba 	Opensource Obscure 	Pauline Darkfury
Qie Niangao 	Rex Cronon 	Sigma Avro
Simon Linden 	Stickman 	Stickman Ingmann
Stone Linden 	TankMaster Finesmith	Thickbrick Sleaford
Toy Wylie 	 	
== Transcript ==
[15:59] Jonathan Yap: Stickman, I bet someone will give you one of those devices
[15:59] Stickman Ingmann: Hah.
[16:00] Stickman Ingmann: I can make one easy enough.
[16:00] Fancy Greeter: Stone Linden has arrived!
[16:00] Arcane Laval: Hi Andrew
[16:00] Maggie Darwin: Hello, Andrew!
[16:00] Draconis Neurocam: Hello Andrew
[16:00] Fancy Greeter: Simon Linden has arrived!
[16:00] Fancy Greeter: Kelly Linden has arrived!
[16:00] Andrew Linden: Hello
[16:00] Stickman Ingmann: I already tested it, though. Manually counted KB based on script type. It's less than half what Maggie's got. Detach the HUD and it's even smaller.
[16:00] DogWomble Dollinger: hey simon
[16:00] Stickman Ingmann: Hi Andrew!
[16:00] Stickman Ingmann: Did you get to talk to Richard since last meeting? I got the email, but didn't see any more conversation if it happened.
[16:00] Maggie Darwin: Well, I'm wearing an emDash and an Omicron. Deal.
[16:01] Arawn Spitteler: Draconis wants to out hat Simon
[16:01] Latif Khalifa: lol rolling stone
[16:01] Stickman Ingmann: Not saying you're abusing, Maggie. Just using you as a point of reference.
[16:01] Simon Linden: Hat contest next week?
[16:01] Stickman Ingmann: With how little everyone else is taking up, I suspect you're not an issue.
[16:01] Ashiri Sands: black hats?
[16:01] Simon Linden: naw, all colors and animations :)
[16:01] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
[16:01] Stickman Ingmann: Dance for us, Rex.
[16:02] Pauline Darkfury: Hi folks :)
[16:02] Andrew Linden: Ok so news...
[16:02] Stickman Ingmann: You're off the table. No more dancing for you.
[16:02] Rex Cronon: mate. this isn't a strip bar:)
[16:02] Rex Cronon: hi
[16:02] Andrew Linden: I have actually started publishing these transcripts again.
[16:02] Maggie Darwin: Yay news.
[16:02] Andrew Linden: You can find them here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Simulator_User_Group#Archive
[16:02] Opensource Obscure: thanks andrew that's great
[16:03] Andrew Linden: I've got a python script that I wrote doing the formatting
[16:03] Draconis Neurocam: yay python
[16:03] Andrew Linden: I'll probably publish that too once I've tweaked it a bit more.
[16:03] Liisa Runo: Now that we are all here, ill repeat my self: a while ago we had that one guy here crashing clients and finally the sim. Saw a client crasher just an hour ago in SB. And my intuition say it is the same guy. If he come here again. Remember that to unrender volume and to prevent client crash: CTRL ALT SHIFT 9
[16:03] TankMaster Finesmith: hiya kelly
[16:04] Stickman Ingmann: Debug menu has to be up to use that, I believe.
[16:04] Kaluura Boa: Names! We want names...
[16:04] Andrew Linden: got a name Liisa?
[16:04] Rex Cronon: thanks for the warning lisa
[16:04] Maggie Darwin: Oh, let him crash you so the dumps get submitted.
[16:04] Fancy Greeter: Maestro Linden has arrived!
[16:04] Rex Cronon: liisa*
[16:04] Sigma Avro: is it a texture overlaod crasher ?
[16:04] Pauline Darkfury: Warm up the AV-shredder, Andrew ;)
[16:05] Jonathan Yap: yes. if it is too many vertices in a sculptie why not stop processing a sculptie after X vertices?
[16:05] DogWomble Dollinger opens up The Cornfield
[16:05] Andrew Linden: hehe, yeah I thought I would open up the tool so I could just click on the kick button when necessary
[16:05] Arawn Spitteler: Andrew doesn't shred, that's for G-Team; Andrew's more the vivisectionist.
[16:05] Liisa Runo: (cant remember the name, was some disposable mess of characters +Resident)
[16:05] Draconis Neurocam: its probably fill rate and not verts johnathan
[16:05] Pauline Darkfury: that's just a slower form of shredding, Arawn ;)
[16:05] Draconis Neurocam: jonathan*
[16:06] Pauline Darkfury: more precise
[16:06] Flip Idlemind: Slower and more fun
[16:06] Andrew Linden: Let's see... I think the latest maint-server project is up on LeTigre
[16:06] Liisa Runo: (and the crasher type was the same as last time, 256 sculpts with semitransparent texture and overglow)
[16:06] Andrew Linden: which has Simon's "faster UDP messages" project, so a slight performance improvement there
[16:07] Flip Idlemind: Yay for performance increases of any kind
[16:07] Kadah Coba relogs to run with debugger
[16:07] Draconis Neurocam: much thanks simon
[16:07] Andrew Linden: our metrics do show an improvement, but I think the results shared internally were on a region that wasn't very loaded.
[16:07] Simon Linden: This week's motto: "every millisecond counts"
[16:07] Sigma Avro: (tks Liisa, very interesting)
[16:07] Draconis Neurocam: my sinewave primparams object back there will like that
[16:07] Simon Linden: I can give some more details if anyone wants to hear them
[16:08] Sigma Avro: yes sure
[16:08] Stickman Ingmann: Yes plesae.
[16:08] Andrew Linden: The improvements there were small, hard to actually measure by feel. maybe a crowded region shows more significant results.
[16:08] Andrew Linden: Go ahead Simon.
[16:08] JayR Cela: hi rex
[16:08] Simon Linden: So I gathered performance data on a region with about 40 avatars ... the most crowded one on 'LeTigre'
[16:08] Rex Cronon: hi jayr
[16:08] Simon Linden: I started with the switch off, then turned on during the run
[16:09] Pauline Darkfury: did that region have a nice high script count, to get a kinda worst case?
[16:09] Andrew Linden: oh, those results were for a region with 40 avatars?
[16:09] Simon Linden: The area of code sending the update messages went from 2ms down to 1ms ... that's an average over a lot of frames, it varies a fair amount
[16:09] Maggie Darwin: *cough*infohub*cough*
[16:09] Simon Linden: The extra time ends up going to scripts, which were using most of the frame time
[16:10] Draconis Neurocam: very nice
[16:10] DogWomble Dollinger: nice work
[16:10] Pauline Darkfury: excellent :)
[16:10] Simon Linden: Since it was running nearly 45fps, the frame rate didn't change, but script performance should have gotten a little better
[16:10] Andrew Linden: Simon, does the viewer use the same UDP checking code?
[16:10] Simon Linden: yes, but the gains there would be smaller ... it just doesn't send nearly as many messages
[16:10] Maestro Linden: You can actually see the difference in performance if you have a script that triggers a lot of 'terse object updates' (like if the script moves child prims)
[16:10] Andrew Linden: right.
[16:11] Andrew Linden: Other news...
[16:11] JayR Cela: awwww Andrew / weep's :(
[16:11] Andrew Linden: I think Pauline was asking if our servers do UDP checksums on the NIC hardward
[16:11] Andrew Linden: harware
[16:11] Sigma Avro: is that only testable on sim crossing, somthing I missed, sory
[16:11] Andrew Linden: I askeed #ops and eventually got the answer back: yes
[16:11] Pauline Darkfury: yup, asked that last week
[16:11] Pauline Darkfury: cool :)
[16:12] Rex Cronon: .
[16:12] Andrew Linden: I think Cummere or Moon was asking about a recent increase in the "phys other" time stat
[16:12] Andrew Linden: Xan Linden also noticed that in his stat analysis.
[16:13] JayR Cela: for the most part cross sim boarder crossing problems have been solved
[16:13] Pauline Darkfury: Yeah, I've observed that on many regions (mostly with 10-15k prims rezzed)
[16:13] Andrew Linden: Falcon Linden found the problem a couple of days ago
[16:13] Pauline Darkfury: yay! :)
[16:13] Andrew Linden: it was a counter around the phys garbage memory collection... wasn't being reset
[16:13] Cummere Mayo: cool
[16:13] Pauline Darkfury: so was it actually reduced performance or just a reporting bug?
[16:13] Jonathan Yap: Was it a bug with just the display or something more ?
[16:13] Andrew Linden: that fix will go into the next maint-server which will be bundled for testing next week
[16:13] Sigma Avro: waow
[16:13] Andrew Linden: so maybe in RC in two weeks at the earliest
[16:14] Andrew Linden: it was a real bug... time spent when it should not have been
[16:14] Pauline Darkfury: cool, that's another ~2ms clawed back on some sims :)
[16:14] Stickman Ingmann: Good thing we have a stat counter then so we can notice it.
[16:14] Pauline Darkfury: (hopefully)
[16:14] Draconis Neurocam: the wonders of debug text
[16:15] Andrew Linden: I think I've fixed a bug related to occasional lost content during rolling restart which was causing occasional rollbacks.
[16:15] Andrew Linden: That will also go up for testing next week.
[16:15] Stickman Ingmann: I haven't been hit by that. I'm sure people will be grateful, though.
[16:15] catseye Fride: hello
[16:15] Arawn Spitteler: Will you be able to detect a non occurence?
[16:15] Toy Wylie: I've had that happen once.
[16:16] Stickman Ingmann: Andrew said last time that it's one or two per rolling restart it happens on.
[16:16] Cummere Mayo: so it was an actual memory leak then not just bad reporting?
[16:16] Rex Cronon: hil
[16:16] Andrew Linden: I'm currntly working on the 1970 date for objects listed in the About Land tools
[16:16] Andrew Linden: dunno the public # for that one.
[16:16] Pauline Darkfury: I've heard symptoms which sound very much like a 30-60 min rollback just about every week in the Wildwood Breedables group. Seems like it hits someone in there just about every time
[16:16] Sigma Avro: ah, good, noticed this problem very often on magnum
[16:16] Stickman Ingmann: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-6544
[16:16] JIRA-helper: [#SVC-6544] In "About Land" dialog, "Most Recent" objects show a date of 1970/01/01 00:00 UTC
[16:17] catseye Fride: how is the land encroachment thing going?
[16:17] Andrew Linden: yes Arawn we'll be able to see a report in the logs when we save a region from this content loss problem
[16:17] Nicki Koba: Thanks Andrew they are a realy big problems in sandboxes !
[16:17] Andrew Linden: cross-region encroachment returns is on my current sprint (short list) which has another week to go
[16:17] Pauline Darkfury: I've been seeing (time_t)0 all over the place, tbh
[16:17] Andrew Linden: so I think I'll actually be able to get to it
[16:17] Andrew Linden: Stone is attending again today to talk more about inventory
[16:18] Andrew Linden: so I'll turn the table over to him
[16:18] Maestro Linden: yeah, that 1970 bug is on all server channels, as far as I know
[16:18] Sigma Avro thinks Andrew consummed a lot of vitamins this week
[16:18] Andrew Linden: unless Kelly or Simon have some news item to mention now.
[16:18] Stickman Ingmann: I'm curious what Kelly's been up to, actually.
[16:18] Latif Khalifa: breaking stuff :P
[16:18] Simon Linden: I could talk a little about our testing bots, but it's not that exciting
[16:18] Pauline Darkfury: Mmm, an update on Mono 2.6 status would be appreciated
[16:19] Stickman Ingmann: Did you get a chance to talk to Richard since Tuesday, Andrew? I got the email, but didn't hear any more about it.
[16:19] Andrew Linden: I think Kelly is helping me right now by working on the "abandoned land" problem.
[16:19] LadyMoon Merlin: hi all
[16:19] Stickman Ingmann: So no llLinkSound tools yet.
[16:19] Rex Cronon: hi
[16:19] Sigma Avro: what kind of solutions for abandoned lands ?
[16:20] Andrew Linden: The mono2-performance stuff is currently blocked by the mesh project which needs an update on the beta grid first
[16:20] Rex Cronon: each NPIOF get one abandoned land for free:)
[16:20] Andrew Linden: mesh needs to pick up the mono2-aware work
[16:20] catseye Fride: sweet I can't wait to see that happen so we can have bigger prims
[16:20] Maggie Darwin: Delightful.
[16:20] Andrew Linden: before we can safely deploy mono2-performance for test
[16:20] Latif Khalifa: kick falcon to merge those already
[16:20] Latif Khalifa: lazy slacker :P
[16:21] Andrew Linden: yeah, there is a little storm of work that needs to be done/figured-out first
[16:21] Andrew Linden: ok Stone, go ahead
[16:21] Sigma Avro: new function in mono 2, as some related top mesh ?
[16:21] Sigma Avro: *to
[16:21] Andrew Linden: if anyone has more questions about inventory you can ask Stone
[16:21] Stone Linden: oh hai!
[16:21] TankMaster Finesmith: hey stone, long tome no see
[16:21] Andrew Linden: We've heard rumors that the new agent inventory services (AIS) are working well for some people.
[16:21] Stone Linden: sorry, i was lost in code
[16:22] Pauline Darkfury: Present for you Andrew, works to find prims up to 196m below terrain after the hunting you did the other week
[16:22] Rex Cronon: hi stone. more details about udp vs. http:)
[16:22] Stone Linden: so far i've heard that inventory capabilities are working well.
[16:22] Pauline Darkfury whispers: (if you're allowed to be seen wielding a 100m prim ;)
[16:22] Latif Khalifa: same as last week :) what's the max number of items a folder can hodl before it gets truncanced on transfer :)
[16:22] Andrew Linden: Thanks Pauline.
[16:22] Kadah Coba: Ok, is it Agent Inv Srvc, or Advanced Inv Srvc?
[16:22] Stone Linden: i don't have a firm number yet, sorry
[16:22] Kadah Coba: I've heard both today :S
[16:22] Stone Linden: It has an old name, "Agent Inventory Service" and a new name: "Inventory API"
[16:23] Simon Linden btw, if anyone has a free dance ball, send it to me and I'll add it to the table
[16:23] SL Bear Gun: Bear's away!
[16:23] Latif Khalifa: lol
[16:23] Sigma Avro: lol
[16:23] Stone Linden: because we're calling things that are APIs SomethingMumble API now
[16:23] Rex Cronon: u want to make us dance when we get here:)
[16:23] Kadah Coba: Good plan, Stone :>
[16:23] SL Bear Gun: Cease fire!
[16:23] Draconis Neurocam: Do subfolders count toward the number of the parent folder or are they separate?
[16:23] Stone Linden: for example if you see references to People API in the viewer code, that's why
[16:23] Kadah Coba: Much less confusing.
[16:24] Latif Khalifa: Simon, the one I rezzed is a freebie
[16:24] Simon Linden: thanks :)
[16:24] Stone Linden: draconis: subfolders count, too
[16:24] Draconis Neurocam: and the inventory?
[16:24] Draconis Neurocam: of the sub folders
[16:24] Fenix Eldritch: O god... stone, you r arms creep me out lol
[16:24] Stone Linden: The idea is to keep the response body of the request at a manageable size
[16:24] Cummere Mayo: oh so if we have 12 folders inside the object folders they will still count toward the limit? :(
[16:24] Sigma Avro: subforlmders where please ?
[16:24] Thickbrick Sleaford: content of subfolders or just the fact that a subfolder exists?
[16:25] Stone Linden: The total inventory size does not have a limit.
[16:25] Stone Linden: It's only the number of items in a single folder
[16:25] Andrew Linden: Stone, you will be trying to gzip the inv http deliveries, right?
[16:26] Stone Linden: Yes, gzip should be going out next week.
[16:26] Jonathan Yap: If you have more than [limit] number of calling cards you are in trouble
[16:26] Sigma Avro: but inventory is a folder !
[16:26] Stone Linden: sigma: it's not a recursive count
[16:26] Arawn Spitteler: Calling Cards belong in subfolders
[16:27] Stone Linden: You can put them into subfolders if you want, but by default they go to the top level folder.
[16:27] Stone Linden: anything else besides the folder limit?
[16:28] Sigma Avro: ok, i surely trust you, lol
[16:28] catseye Fride: whats going to be the new prims size limit?
[16:28] Stone Linden has no idea.
[16:28] Stickman Ingmann: 64m last I heard from the mesh team.
[16:28] Cummere Mayo: psst stone... make a web interface so we can sort these folders on it >.>
[16:28] Pauline Darkfury: The thought occurred to me that the viewer's <key>.inv.gz is only a few MB with 40,000 items, so perhaps it would be efficient to just dump the entire inv and do a single bulk transfer, if someone has a lot to download?
[16:28] catseye Fride: cool
[16:28] Stickman Ingmann: Make a Jira feature request for the web team?
[16:28] Sigma Avro: is 64 m alos on mainland ?
[16:29] Andrew Linden: no changes to prim size until mesh (yes, 64m)
[16:29] Cummere Mayo offers stone bribes
[16:29] Stickman Ingmann: The prim encroachment project Andrew worked on will solve the large prim issues, in theory.
[16:29] Sigma Avro: for mainland, yes, it should allow mega there also I suppose
[16:30] Pauline Darkfury: Megas are already in widespread use on mainland
[16:30] Maestro Linden: Yes, I think the plan is to allow 64m prims everywhere. But we probably don't want to flip the switch until encroachment is enabled on mainland
[16:30] Sigma Avro: well, a definitve statement would be better
[16:30] Pauline Darkfury: (very widespread, in the case of the 1024m dome mentioned in Concierge chat last week ;)
[16:30] catseye Fride: I have never had that problem personally but most times people are nivce enought when you tell them
[16:31] Liisa Runo: Flip the switch when encoachment is done, but dont wait that year that mesh is going to be done.
[16:31] Maggie Darwin: Encroachment is enabled everywhere on mainland, just look. :-)
[16:31] Sigma Avro: (sory Maestro, lag)
[16:31] Andrew Linden: Stone, the new Inventory API is in viewer 2.5.1 right?
[16:31] Andrew Linden: and is on by default?
[16:31] Pauline Darkfury: Oh, is it actually enabled at estate level for mainland now?
[16:31] TankMaster Finesmith: yep
[16:31] Stone Linden: Andrew: correct, it's on in the viewer since 2.5.1
[16:31] Andrew Linden: No Pauline, encroachment is not enabled on mainland yet.
[16:31] Andrew Linden: I haven't actually heard of any private estates using it.
[16:32] Stone Linden: It's been enabled on the sims since January, and we're going to make a strong effort to keep it enabled on the sim side so that clients can begin to rely on it.
[16:32] Andrew Linden: Has anyone seen it used anywhere yet?
[16:32] Pauline Darkfury: any idea of timescale when you might enable it on mainland?
[16:32] Latif Khalifa: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-6821 <- joshua suggesed investigating gzip and binary serialization to minizmize response body size of those caps
[16:32] JIRA-helper: [#SVC-6821] Investigate better serialization/compression method for the new inventory capabilities
[16:32] Jonathan Yap: Andrew, I think you were going to write a blog post about prim encroachment
[16:32] Liisa Runo: we only need it in mainland. Encoachment is not a problem in estates
[16:32] Andrew Linden: I don't have #support banging on my door to enable encroachment, so I haven't collaborated with them about it yet.
[16:32] Pauline Darkfury: Well, it may save a little EM time on estates, but yeah, it's not a major issue there
[16:33] Andrew Linden: That doesn't bother me too much... I need to get cross-region encroachment working.
[16:33] Stickman Ingmann: I'm surprised support isn't banging on your door about that. It's one of the major issues they deal with, isn't it?
[16:33] Pauline Darkfury: support have been really very poor at responding to encroachment ARs, tbh
[16:33] Andrew Linden: yeah, I'm a little surprised too Stickman.
[16:33] Latif Khalifa: support have been really very poor at responding
[16:34] catseye Fride: I imagine that is going to be a pian to get working adrew so more power to you
[16:34] SL Bear Gun: Bear's away!
[16:34] Qie Niangao: heh. not a problem for Support if they don't actually respond to encroachment.
[16:34] Andrew Linden: Well, I thought it was a major source of load, but I now believe it isn't as high as I thought.
[16:34] Pauline Darkfury: I submitted around 10 ARs over 4-5 months none got answered, the issue was finally solved when I managed to buy the parcel (I didn't try to escalate it, as I was watching to see if the normal process actually worked)
[16:34] SL Bear Gun: Cease fire!
[16:35] Andrew Linden: I think I'll blog about encroachment when I have cross-region returns working.
[16:35] Andrew Linden: As I mentioned earlier: I hope to start working on that next weeek.
[16:36] catseye Fride: crosses his fingers
[16:36] Andrew Linden: Ok, so if we're all tapped out for inventory discussion then the table is open to all topics.
[16:36] Kadah Coba: How far off is the abandoned-land auto-sale project?
[16:36] Thickbrick Sleaford: A question about encroachment: does it use axis aligned bounding boxes of prims, or regular (prim-aligned) BBs? I Think I saw AABBs mentioned, and that seems counter intuitive.
[16:36] Pauline Darkfury: Question on the cross-region encroachment, will a 256x256 positioned at 128,128 be ok with it?
[16:37] Stickman Ingmann: A reminder to talk to Richard about the animation email I sent, Andrew. I'd be interested in hearing back about that.
[16:37] Andrew Linden: Kelly, would you like to comment on the abandoned land project?
[16:37] Andrew Linden: Oh... Kelly is marked as "Away".
[16:37] Andrew Linden: I recall that Kelly doesn't think it will be that hard, and he has already started working on it
[16:37] Kelly Linden: Hi.
[16:37] Andrew Linden: we expect it to be complete next week, and put up for test
[16:37] Kelly Linden: Yeah I think that sums it up.
[16:38] Maggie Darwin: What does the project do?
[16:38] Arawn Spitteler: Abandoned LAnd is almost a WEB issue, just scripting a few rules, no?
[16:38] Liisa Runo: how about the autoreturn on abandoned lands? that is the most important think in my book
[16:38] Kelly Linden: When someone abandons land it will be set for sale back to them only for some amount of time before being set for sale to anyone at a certain price (I think 1L$ / m)
[16:38] Maestro Linden: Thickbrick, the viewer uses axis-aligned bounding boxes for its encroachment logic (to detect whether the 'return' option should be enabled). The 'axis' in this case are the prim axes.
[16:38] Kelly Linden: The auto-return will not get turned on until the end of the buy-back period.
[16:38] Sigma Avro: question was when group abandons land
[16:38] Kelly Linden: doing it earlier would return all the persons items (since the owner changes)
[16:38] Maestro Linden: On the server side, it's using Havok to detect a 'collision' between the encroaching object and your parcel
[16:39] Andrew Linden: Kelly, we talked in these office hours about putting the land up for sale to adjacent neighbors first, after the abandonee.
[16:39] Liisa Runo: better that than never
[16:39] Thickbrick Sleaford: heh, thanks Maestro, I has terms backwards.
[16:39] Pauline Darkfury: Is there any provision for the current rather handy behaviour where existing landowners in the region can get a direct sale from the Concierge team on small parcels?
[16:39] Andrew Linden: Do you think that would be possible or easy?
[16:39] Maggie Darwin: You'll hear huge squawks from land merchants about that
[16:39] Kelly Linden: It would be more difficult since we don't currently have a way to set for sale to a select few - only to 1 or all.
[16:39] Sigma Avro: Sorry, Kelly, seemed to me a problem for group land that is abandoned
[16:39] Kadah Coba: The abandoned land update sounds great so far.
[16:39] Pauline Darkfury: in some cases, a <=512 shouldn't be put on sale to anyone, particularly if a large landowner owns 3 sides of it (or all non-region-boundary sides)
[16:39] Andrew Linden: er... "office hours" = "user group"
[16:39] Maggie Darwin: But there's land adjacent to parcels we own we'd buy if they were for sale
[16:39] Kelly Linden: Details are not quite finalized on group land.
[16:40] Kelly Linden: /nod I understand maggie.
[16:40] Cummere Mayo: that option would be nice to keep
[16:40] Andrew Linden: brb...
[16:40] Kelly Linden: It may not be in this phase though.
[16:40] Kelly Linden: since it is easily more work than the rest of it combined.
[16:40] Cummere Mayo: actually be nice to expand to all other owners in the parcel not jsut big ones
[16:40] Pauline Darkfury: It would be good if there was a human sanity check on donut parcels, small stuff, and the like, to improve the quality of mainland, reduce fragmentation
[16:40] Kelly Linden: the problem is the human component can't quite keep up which puts us where we are today
[16:40] Pauline Darkfury: Otherwise if a big owner has been waiting patiently for a long time to grab something to make their land whole, they could miss out if they happen to be offline
[16:41] Kaluura Boa: To improve mainland, "for sale" signs should be banned
[16:41] Kadah Coba: On the auto-buyback period, what about group owned land?
[16:41] Jonathan Yap: Just before it is to be put on sale how about rezzing a sign that nearby owners would then see?
[16:41] Simon Linden: I know Guy Linden used to do that, it's one of the reasons it's so time consuming to clean up
[16:41] Sigma Avro has a thought for Japan by the way, speeking of small parcels
[16:41] Pauline Darkfury: Well, I'm not suggesting all parcels need reviewed, but the 512s and smaller really should get some human review for the situation I describe
[16:41] Andrew Linden: ...back
[16:41] Rex Cronon: wb
[16:41] Stickman Ingmann: I don't know about others, but I don't check land for sale all the time. If land became available next to the mainland I own, I would love to be notified somehow -- by email or otherwise. Is something like that possible?
[16:42] catseye Fride: most seller I see today have small onfo signs
[16:42] Kelly Linden: Kadah - still working out the details on that. Would like to let the group buy back (via whoever has the power to buy land for the group)
[16:42] Kadah Coba: Good, good, Kelly :>
[16:42] Sigma Avro: Ys, is there a way to have a good refresh rate of lands for sale on private islands ?
[16:42] Pauline Darkfury: Just a fair chance so that bigger people trying to improve mainland don't go from a junk filled abandonment to an ad farm while they sleep
[16:42] Kelly Linden: It is probably possible, but not scheduled for this phase.
[16:42] Maggie Darwin: IM notification to neighbors would be awesome
[16:42] Arcane Laval: Good idea Kelly, me likes
[16:42] Liisa Runo: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:About_ad_farms_and_network_advertisers "Does this policy include signs advertising parcels for sale? Yes it does. "
[16:42] Kaluura Boa: I recently saw a sim full of giant "for sale" signs... from one side to the other...
[16:43] Andrew Linden: IM notification to neighbors would need some option to turn off, for those who don't want to be spammed
[16:43] Kelly Linden: To be honest the biggest focus here is on handling the largest majority of cases so the land does actually change hands and without support intervention.
[16:43] Pauline Darkfury: That policy seems to be seldom enforced, tbh
[16:43] Stickman Ingmann: What if you put up for sale signs and the land isn't for sale? They're more of a "theme decoration?" :D
[16:43] Sigma Avro: lol, yes, we need megaprims to advertize lands for sell
[16:43] Maggie Darwin: Liisa: that's on the list of "stuff G-team doesn;t bother with anymore"
[16:43] Maggie Darwin: A long list, actually
[16:43] Sigma Avro: ues, understand very well the point Kelly, normal
[16:44] Kadah Coba: And I would love to see something done for the tiny parcels, like allowing the parcel owners around it to get first dibs on it over the land barrons who I've been pretty much griefted by why they buy tiny 16sqm plots in the middle of mine and will only sell them of 100's of L
[16:44] Arawn Spitteler: The right to use your land however you like, is the right to be unlikeable.
[16:44] Stickman Ingmann: IM notifications for land for sale would probably be parcel-related. So you could turn it off for one parcel, but on for another. "Any in this region," and "Any bordering this land?"
[16:44] Kaluura Boa: Can we have a list of the things the G-Team cares about? So we don't bother AR'ing if nobody cares...
[16:44] Pauline Darkfury: There's people still trying to sell 16-96 parcels for 1000s
[16:45] Qie Niangao: Pauline, it's worse than that. There's fresh cutting going on, with no response to ARs for it.
[16:45] Stickman Ingmann: Well said, Arawn.
[16:45] Sigma Avro: well, actually the designation "sell land" should be revisited, seems to me
[16:45] Cummere Mayo: yeah ive seem that still too...
[16:45] Pauline Darkfury: Yeah, I heard a case being discussed in the Arbor Project chat just a couple of days ago, a whole new farm fo 16s
[16:46] Cummere Mayo: but its actually not suppsoed to occur anymore and every once in a while i see that land taken away... but not near enough
[16:46] Kadah Coba: Is there a UG for land yet?
[16:47] SL Bear Gun: Bear's away!
[16:47] Cummere Mayo: ive seen a few people (or possibly alts of the same person) sell most of a 512 plot dirt cheap except for 2 16m^2 bits and they hang onto that and then try and charge 10,000L each
[16:47] Pauline Darkfury: I've no issue with sensible 1024s and larger just going to anyone sale (or auction is better, tbh), it's just the small or bizarre shaped stuff that people have been trying to get for years in some cases
[16:47] Sigma Avro: Sorry, I have a feature that seems to me would improve a lot apperance of sims...
[16:47] Stickman Ingmann: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:User_Groups Don't see a "land" usergroup. Who would man that, anyway? Support?
[16:47] catseye Fride: I think the main problem with the mainland is that it has no really structure someons private home can be next to an adult club and so on
[16:47] Pauline Darkfury: yeah, many variations of donut extortion
[16:47] SL Bear Gun: Cease fire!
[16:47] Kadah Coba: Stickman, I didn't either, but I remember there being one on there not long ago.
[16:47] Sigma Avro: ... could patch pixel textures be increased to a reasonable value ?
[16:47] Arawn Spitteler: LAnd User Group would be Jack Office Hour, which, I understand, isn't.
[16:48] Stickman Ingmann: ... Jack Linden's office hours, wasn't it?
[16:48] Pauline Darkfury: Blondin used to do a mainland OH, but it got eaten by the User Groups
[16:48] Pauline Darkfury: And yeah, Jack for more major issues
[16:48] Kadah Coba: Jack's gone.
[16:48] Stickman Ingmann: Jack left, if I recall.
[16:48] Arawn Spitteler: But these are examples of what Abandonment Scripting should allow for
[16:48] Rex Cronon: unless your house is on adult sim, an aduclt club can't be newr it
[16:48] Pauline Darkfury: Jack left around the end of the year
[16:48] Kelly Linden: I have to head out now, take care everyone.
[16:48] Andrew Linden: Thanks Kelly.
[16:48] Qie Niangao: thanks Kelly
[16:48] Stickman Ingmann: Later Kelly!
[16:48] Pauline Darkfury: ok, thanks, Kelly :)
[16:48] Draconis Neurocam: take care kelly
[16:48] Sigma Avro: thnaks Kelly
[16:48] Cummere Mayo: tc kelly
[16:48] Rex Cronon: next to i*
[16:48] Kadah Coba: Thanks Kelle!
[16:48] Cummere Mayo: :)
[16:48] Rex Cronon: tc
[16:49] TankMaster Finesmith: tc kelly
[16:49] Cummere Mayo: im heading out too actually... tc all
[16:49] Andrew Linden: I should reiterate before the end of this hour: I've started publishing the transcripts of these meetings again.
[16:50] Rex Cronon: tc
[16:50] Sigma Avro: will improved metrics been visible in statistics or regions UIs ?
[16:50] Andrew Linden: You can find the transcripts here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Simulator_User_Group#Archive
[16:50] Pauline Darkfury: basically what I'd likke to avoid is the auto handling of abandonments making the problem worse for people trying to repair mainland. RIght now, it may take 4-5 months to get a direct sale of a tiny abandoned parcel, but it does eventually find its way to the right people in general
[16:50] Stickman Ingmann: Repair mainland. I like that.
[16:50] Kadah Coba: What Pauline said.
[16:51] Ashiri Sands: sounds good to me
[16:51] Andrew Linden: yeah, I'm in favor of that, however I understand the strategy of just making it work first then adding that later
[16:51] Arawn Spitteler: Scriptable Permission Lists? So some people can be issued some rights, as to rez or to buy?
[16:51] Flip Idlemind: So, what all is likely to get rolled out next week? (For people like me who always need to know everything)
[16:51] Andrew Linden: if I were actually doing the work I would probably choose that path
[16:51] Kadah Coba: Execpt it took me +6 months to get 2 tiny parcels to repair mine.
[16:51] Maggie Darwin: I can imagine landbots snarfing stuff up at 1L/m^2
[16:51] Sigma Avro: (aswering me Andrew ?)
[16:51] Andrew Linden: I don't know what will be added to the RC next week.
[16:51] Arcane Laval: What I wonder about is if I want to buy back a tiny piece of abandoned land that used to belong to my group, would I actually need to be a premium member so that Support will take my ticket serious?
[16:51] Pauline Darkfury: the bots currently buy below L$1/sq.m.
[16:52] Andrew Linden: But the RC that will probably be promoted to the main channel is LeTigre
[16:52] Latif Khalifa: land bots seem to be now at 0.7
[16:52] Andrew Linden: (not decided yet, I think)
[16:52] Kadah Coba: Aren't bots banned from the land sales anyway? :V
[16:52] Jonathan Yap: Maybe there could be a limited auction feature added with just the names of abutters as bidders
[16:52] Andrew Linden: but that channel has some performance improvements
[16:52] Latif Khalifa remembers when land bots used to pay 10x as much
[16:52] Pauline Darkfury: the land bots are alive and well. Just set a parcel for sale to anyone for L$1 (total) on mainland, and you barely have time to blink before SFNC or similar own it
[16:52] Sigma Avro: (well, bots have been a good business fo LLs, cant blame them, lol)
[16:53] Pauline Darkfury: the bots are not all bad
[16:53] Maggie Darwin: Sure we can. Just watch.
[16:53] Liisa Runo: i like land bots, i rather take little money than to abandon the parcel
[16:53] Kadah Coba: I work smarter than the bots, buying at 1 selling at 6.5 xD
[16:53] Latif Khalifa: Liisa, exactly
[16:53] Arcane Laval: Agreed Liisa
[16:53] Pauline Darkfury: the main issue with them is people being foolish and trying to do a direct sale but choosing "anyone"
[16:54] Latif Khalifa: Pauline, there are 3 HUGE warnings when you sell land. If you ignore all 3, well...
[16:54] Latif Khalifa: nobody can help you ;)
[16:54] Kaluura Boa: Yeah... Can't cure stupidity...
[16:54] Arcane Laval: User failure. Unable to program against :P
[16:54] catseye Fride: lol
[16:54] Liisa Runo: people who live in internet should not click "yes" to every popup without reading what it say
[16:54] Pauline Darkfury: Yeah, I know, I was juggling parcels between groups earlier today, it couldn't really be clearer unless chiselled onto a brick and thrown at your head!
[16:54] Andrew Linden: pebkac
[16:54] Latif Khalifa: hehe
[16:54] catseye Fride: thats why a bit of structure for the mainland would be good
[16:55] DogWomble Dollinger: andrew i prefer the term PICNIC
[16:55] DogWomble Dollinger: Problem In Chair Not In Computer
[16:55] Pauline Darkfury: hehe
[16:55] Pauline Darkfury: ID-10T as well ;)
[16:55] Stickman Ingmann: ID-10-T works, too.
[16:55] Pauline Darkfury: heh
[16:55] Stickman Ingmann: GET OUT OF MY HEAD, PAULINE.
[16:56] Stickman Ingmann: Five minutes.
[16:56] Latif Khalifa: omg, brain copybot!
[16:56] Stickman Ingmann: AR, AR!
[16:56] Pauline Darkfury: lol
[16:56] Arawn Spitteler wonders what happened to his coffee cup holder
[16:56] DogWomble Dollinger: yeah, but at least youcanue the term PICNICwithout the persn being able to google it
[16:56] Pauline Darkfury: hehe
[16:56] Liisa Runo: (AR: Remotely monitoring brain)
[16:56] Ashiri Sands: ooh, surreptitious rudeness
[16:56] Stickman Ingmann: So Andrew. I'm sure you've heard me, but you haven't responded. Just want to make sure you still remember to talk to Richard about the animation email I sent.
[16:57] Arawn Spitteler: Surrepticion of Rude is the best part
[16:57] Andrew Linden: d'oh Stickman. I meant to follow up on that before this meeting.
[16:57] Sigma Avro: well, if someone could give a link for mono2, I would appreciate
[16:57] Andrew Linden: Thanks for the reminder.
[16:57] Stickman Ingmann: Sure. :)
[16:57] Andrew Linden: I'll try to talk to him before next Tuesday
[16:57] Stickman Ingmann: I'll be here.
[16:57] Andrew Linden: a "link" for Mono2?
[16:58] Sigma Avro: yes
[16:58] Sigma Avro: please
[16:58] Stickman Ingmann: No clarification, just aggreance.
[16:58] Pauline Darkfury: It should fix SVC-3895 and related issues
[16:58] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-3895
[#SVC-3895] Rezzing Mono scripted object cripples sim FPS
[16:58] Kadah Coba: Anything else? Feels about done now :3
[16:58] Latif Khalifa: falcon is bliocking mono2, write to him :P
[16:58] Pauline Darkfury: no changed beyond that for the scripts themselves
[16:58] Sigma Avro: ah, ok thanks
[16:58] Andrew Linden: ah, the mono2-performance project
[16:58] Pauline Darkfury: It _might_ improve performance, maybe
[16:58] Andrew Linden: I dunno of a link to an update to that
[16:59] Andrew Linden: I think maybe these user group transcripts are as close as we have at the moment
[16:59] Sigma Avro: oh, sorry, I thought was else
[16:59] Pauline Darkfury: Kelly stated that 100 Mono scripts in attachments should be no worse than 100 non-Mono when we eventually get it, for people entering/leaving.
[16:59] Andrew Linden: the mesh project (not Falcon) is currently blocking mono2-performance testing on aditi
[16:59] Kaluura Boa: MEsh project is blocking a lot of things... Like CastRay and (small) megas
[16:59] Stickman Ingmann: Except that 100 mono scripts will take up 6.4MB, while 100 LSL scripts will take up 1.6MBs.
[16:59] Sigma Avro: any reason to keep mono ?
[17:00] Andrew Linden: right, that is what the "mono2-performance" project is about
[17:00] Toy Wylie: Mono scripts only take up as much as they need.
[17:00] Stickman Ingmann: Mono is significantly faster at many things.
[17:00] Toy Wylie: While LSL always takes 16k :P
[17:00] Latif Khalifa: Stickman, not true.
[17:00] Maestro Linden: basically, we want to put mono2-performance out on Aditi, and see if any script errors are logged after a few days
[17:00] Andrew Linden: to remove the rez lag related to creating mono scripts
[17:00] Pauline Darkfury: The Mono scripts will be reported as 6.4MB, but may use less due to bytecode sharing, and will use much less CPU
[17:00] Stickman Ingmann: Latif, shared bytecode, sure. An exception.
[17:00] Andrew Linden: but mesh needs to first pick up the mono2-aware stuff
[17:00] Latif Khalifa: also not using 64k
[17:00] Toy Wylie: If a mono script only has two lines of code, it won't use 64 kb
[17:00] Maestro Linden: and if mesh doesn't have mono2-aware, then there will be a bunch of nasty serialization errors which aren't actually bugs
[17:00] Flip Idlemind: What I'd love is if Mono scripts actually reported what they use
[17:00] Arawn Spitteler: Aditi Project Mapping might be handy
[17:00] Latif Khalifa: just reporting 64k, using as needed
[17:01] Pauline Darkfury: I believe that Mono should also be using dynamic page allocation, so not be using more memory than it actually needs. (is that correct, Andrew?)
[17:01] Andrew Linden: that was promoted to the main channel of agni (main grid) a couple weeks ago
[17:01] Simon Linden: The other reason to use mono is to eventually get to a better language like c#
[17:01] Andrew Linden: Pauline, I think that is already true for Mono
[17:01] Latif Khalifa: tro, who needs "encouragement" in the mesh project to do the merge?
[17:01] Maggie Darwin: Long about the time MSFT drops support for it.
[17:01] Stickman Ingmann: Latif, I haven't had that confirmed. I asked Kelly once, but he seemed distracted. He walked around the issue, though.
[17:01] Sigma Avro: ah, ok Simon
[17:01] Maestro Linden: dunno Latif, as their UG :)
[17:01] Maestro Linden: *ask
[17:01] Simon Linden: It's happening, Latif
[17:01] Pauline Darkfury: yup, it's my understanding that both bytecode sharing and dynamic paging are active, just impossible to confirm at our end
[17:02] Andrew Linden: but there was a bug in mono that caused an extra delay when adding a new script there shouldn't have been
[17:02] Simon Linden: We didn't realize it was a problem until this week
[17:02] Latif Khalifa: Stickman, I had it confirmeda about dozen times from babbage who wrote the thing
[17:02] Sigma Avro: yes, bug is double rezing or something so, right ?
[17:02] Stickman Ingmann: I suppose that'll have to do.
[17:02] Stone Linden heads out, happy Friday everyone!
[17:02] Latif Khalifa: tro, Mesh UG is all like "no dates discussed ever" ;)
[17:02] Qie Niangao: thanks Stone.
[17:02] Stickman Ingmann: Be nice if accounting didn't report otherwise.
[17:02] Pauline Darkfury: take care, Stone
[17:02] catseye Fride: have fun stone
[17:02] Latif Khalifa: have a good one Stone :)
[17:02] TankMaster Finesmith: have a good weekend stone
[17:02] Andrew Linden: thanks for coming Stone
[17:02] Sigma Avro: by Stone
[17:03] Simon Linden: Thanks everyone, I have to go too
[17:03] Pauline Darkfury: yeah, it would be very useful if landowners could get an idea of the actual current memory usage rather than the never-approached worst case
[17:03] Maestro Linden: me too
[17:03] Rex Cronon: tc
[17:03] Stickman Ingmann: Thanks for the information Simon, Andrew.
[17:03] Rex Cronon: tc everybody
[17:03] Latif Khalifa: Have a nice weekend simon in Mastro :) Thanks for hoting Andrew.
[17:03] TankMaster Finesmith: tc maestro
[17:03] Maestro Linden: thanks for coming
[17:03] Pauline Darkfury: Take care, Lindens, have a good one :)
[17:03] Sigma Avro: Thansk Andrew,Simon Maestro and all
[17:03] Draconis Neurocam: Take care
[17:03] Simon Linden: Bye everyone :)
[17:03] Andrew Linden: Thanks for coming everyone.
[17:03] Maggie Darwin: Maestro hotted Andrew?
[17:03] Arcane Laval waves
[17:03] Maestro Linden: D:
[17:03] Maggie Darwin: I missed it...
[17:03] Qie Niangao: Thanks Lindens, have fun all.
[17:04] Kaluura Boa: Good night everybody... Yawn!
[17:04] Maggie Darwin: Oops, pardon, Latif
[17:04] Stickman Ingmann: Back to work. Later!
[17:04] catseye Fride: thank for the biggers prims Andrew
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