Open Source Meeting/2010-06-03

=== Agenda Thursday, 3 June 2010 ===
# Weekly Snowglobe update - Merov Linden
#* 1.4 been built yesterday
#* 2.0 also
#* Almost all "easy" ports done for 2.0. Please check the spreadsheet. 2 "big features" are at risk for different reasons:
#** SNOW-666: OGP Login: Pixel not available for the port. Should we consider blocking SG2.0 release for this? If we do, volunteer to take over the port? (we need someone who is willing to test connection to OpenSim's servers supporting the protocol)
#** SNOW-670: Drop down identities for login: 2.0.2 is changing the login quite a bit so I feel that doing this in 2.0.1 is a waste of time. We'll be facing yet another difficult merge in 2.0.2. I'm proposing to punt that one.
# The future of Snowglobe 1.x
#* What features in 1.x not yet in 2.x are most important to move?
# / (HTTP Map URL capability)
#* John Hurliman asked whether we could get SNOW-77_map_url_cap.diff committed
#* This will be more useful if it's included in the regular Viewer2.x as well. What does Merov (or other relevant Lindens) think about this?
# SL7B : Ideas and planning for the Snowglobe stand (Robin Cornelius)
# Template:Snowglobe-installers-trunk says "1.4.0 Release". Shouldn't it say "1.4.0 Test Build"?
# Your topic here!
== Transcript ==
[14:00]	:	Hullo!
[14:00]	:	what did you break today Aimee?
[14:00]	 	smiles
[14:00]	:	hey amiee
[14:01]	:	hey merov
[14:01]	:	Hi guys
[14:01]	:	Hi everyone
[14:02]	 	getting the agenda
[14:02]	:	most likely Aimee broke the Hippo installer...not that I would be the slightest bit surprised *snickers*
[14:02]	:	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source_Meeting/Agenda
[14:02]	:	SL7B acceptances are comming out now, not had ours yet
[14:03]	:	Hope they won't bust us.... that'd be odd...
[14:03]	:	um my Hippos are all fine as far as I can tell
[14:03]	:	ok, let's start
[14:03]	:	Oz told me he'll be a little late
[14:03]	:	yup, ctrl-alt-shift-H working a treat
[14:04]	:	hi
[14:04]	:	so, first, my update
[14:04]	:	for those who receive JIRA alerts and sldev-commit emails, you know I've been on a tear through JIRA and 2.0 patch log
[14:04]	 	smiels
[14:05]	:	so you know wht I've been doing...
[14:05]	:	I've notice, but I didn't have time to finished all the easy ports on the google doc, I know there was at least three more I could have done.l
[14:05]	:	I also unblocked that darn 1.4 parabuild machinery and it's firing again
[14:05]	:	whohoo
[14:05]	:	ya i know having to do a rebuild of my viewer at least once a day
[14:05]	:	you wanted a SNOW-169 commit to test that?
[14:05]	:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-169 
[#SNOW-169] Viewer crash: LLViewerImage::doLoadedCallbacks: ASSERT (mRawImage.notNull())
[14:06]	:	so we have fresh builds of 2.0 and 1.4 as of yesterday
[14:06]	:	on 169: I commented that the patch seems good to be committed
[14:06]	:	I'll crank another build as soon as you commit
[14:07]	:	I would like a final ok from Thickbrick, her was testing it a lot, i think it was fine
[14:07]	:	*he
[14:07]	:	it's easy to hit "start" on parabuild, the hard part is fixing it when it fails repetitively... :/
[14:07]	:	169 was fixed 100% with that patch for me
[14:07]	:	ah cool Latif
[14:07]	:	great!
[14:08]	:	I think the patch is good - I started having weird crashed when testing it, but they kept going even after I removed the patch from my viewer and rm -rf-ed my cache, so not related
[14:08]	:	so, yes, please feel free to commit on 1.4 Robin (and other committers)
[14:08]	:	I'll get the build firing
[14:08]	:	How many committers we got?
[14:08]	:	http textures got disabled on aditi in the meanwhile
[14:08]	:	outside Lindens? half a dozen...
[14:08]	:	not enough
[14:09]	:	yes, just when I had a couple of fixes for 1.4 to test with http
[14:09]	:	Thick, the beta OH is after this one.
[14:09]	:	Thikbrick, Tervus Plaza on OSGrid :)
[14:09]	:	k, on 2.0, I'm asking the crowd to review 2 issues with me
[14:10]	:	first: SNOW-666
[14:10]	:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-666 
[#SNOW-666] Port of SNOW-215 to SG 2.0 : OGP Interop login/teleport
[14:10]	:	I'm crashing too often on OSGrid
[14:10]	:	Any particular crash routes?
[14:10]	:	Pixel was supposed to do the port but she won't be available for a looong time
[14:10]	:	:(
[14:11]	:	so we're left with that patch dangling with no owner
[14:11]	:	( SNOW-696 SNOW-697 and SNOW-698 )
[14:11]	:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-696 
[#SNOW-696] Crash on Opensim: ERROR: ~LLRefCount: deleting non-zero reference
[14:11]	:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-697 
[#SNOW-697] Crash to desktop without backtrace on Opensim (in memcpy()), when using http testures
[14:11]	:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-698 
[#SNOW-698] Crash when http-getting an empty texture: ERROR: doWork: ASSERT (mFormattedImage->getDataSize() > 0)
[14:12]	:	Any taker? I'm eyeing the OpenSim folks in there...
[14:12]	:	I sort of understood she mean to update it for the newer drafts of VWRAP, not just port it
[14:12]	:	well, she gave me no date for when anything will happen on her side
[14:13]	:	looks like she's been assigned to a new project so progress her side will be slow
[14:13]	:	brb 2.0 ha ground to a halt
[14:14]	:	"expected behaviour"
[14:14]	:	hmmm...
[14:14]	:	Merov, there is very little momentum on vwrap front anyway, ufortunately
[14:14]	:	that has to be the understatement of the day Latif...
[14:14]	:	haha
[14:15]	:	I thought things were waking up recently
[14:15]	:	The ones that have done mulit-loggin are doing it differetnlly and I think emerald is taking that one in. So the snowglobe one has been sorta abanded. :-(
[14:15]	:	well, one question for OpenSim folks: how bad that is for you not to have Pixel's patch?
[14:15]	:	and there are some legal issues, i thik opensim folks have asked this a year ago
[14:15]	 	assumes other aspects of it were useful
[14:15]	:	Sorry, just a little miffed so many issues with the new UI are getting closed as expected behaviour.
[14:15]	:	but got no answer from LL
[14:15]	:	Just because it is expected does not mean it is correct
[14:16]	:	which legal issues?
[14:16]	:	hold that thought Ardy
[14:16]	:	can you elaborate Latif?
[14:16]	:	Is that because Snowglobe is GPL?
[14:17]	:	Can someone set no outside sounds on this parcel? I can hear them, but can't see them to mute the gesterbaters.
[14:17]	:	the ozz man cometh :p
[14:17]	:	as you know OpenSim devs got the legal advice that they should ot work with SG source code, unless LL gives explicit permission to the OpenSim team
[14:17]	:	gesturebaters... good term for them
[14:17]	:	yes, because of the license
[14:17]	:	hi
[14:17]	:	well, on cue Oz
[14:17]	:	:)
[14:18]	:	we're hitting a "licensing issue" discussion
[14:18]	:	Oz (The Great and Powerful)
[14:18]	:	oh fun
[14:18]	:	The OpenSim team hired a very bad lawer.
[14:19]	:	or a very good one... there's a fine line there... :)
[14:19]	:	I have not seen the SG discussion ... someone have a pointer to what's needed?
[14:19]	:	the gist: OpenSim folks would like modifs to be done in Snowglobe *but* they can't touch it as it's GPL and have been advised not to touch GPL code with a long pole
[14:19]	:	i can find out the details and forward it to you Oz
[14:20]	:	this is the Opensim policy: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Contributions_Policy #OpenSim_Licensing_Conditions
[14:20]	:	Merov, not GPL per se, copyright(c) LL
[14:20]	:	More precisely, they have a rule that you can not work on OpenSim if you have looked at SG code in the last 6mo
[14:21]	:	I find this situation most unfortunate
[14:21]	:	I do not claim to understand this...
[14:21]	:	I doubt that there's much we can do to influence that
[14:22]	:	but I'll have a look
[14:22]	:	int mi=ost of opensim work on server code?
[14:22]	:	I'd certainly like it to be true that you all have the option to work on both
[14:23]	:	good, would be nice to get a clear handle on this
[14:23]	:	about a year ago OpenSim dev team has enquired LL about giving explicit permission (don't kow the exact legal term) but can find out
[14:23]	:	no answer was recieved
[14:23]	:	If all it takes is a letter form LL Legal Dept, that would be a quick fix
[14:24]	:	if you can find the query, I can look into getting some kind of response (even if it's one that won't make them happy, they should get some response)
[14:24]	:	k, looks like an action item for Oz :)
[14:25]	:	basically assurances were asked that LL will not go after OpenSim for copyright issues should that clause about not looking at the SG source be lifted
[14:25]	:	in the meantime, it seems that we should punt SNOW-666 off SG2.0
[14:26]	 	knew something bad would happen ion that JIRA when the number was generated...
[14:26]	:	where's the issue if the code is gpl ?
[14:26]	:	They want a blessing they can flaunt.
[14:27]	:	i think the legal term is estoppel (IANAL)
[14:28]	:	we'll know more next time
[14:28]	:	well, let's move on now that Oz has an action item here
[14:28]	:	next SNOW-670
[14:28]	:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-670 
[#SNOW-670] Port of SNOW-129 to SG 2.0 : Select account from list at login
[14:28]	:	(laughing at AImee Linden's tag) :)
[14:28]	:	please don't port that!
[14:28]	:	that bad?
[14:28]	:	That one I'm askign not to port
[14:28]	:	Not in that form anyway
[14:29]	:	that code ruined snowglobe
[14:29]	:	we need more of a grid manager
[14:29]	:	as we said Tuesday
[14:29]	:	because of changes coming down in 2.0.2 (see viewer-external)
[14:29]	:	in fact i would ask for it to be removed from 1.x too
[14:29]	:	well, if on top of that, people want something else, please do make proposal!
[14:29]	:	it's buggy, interferes with command line params, grid selection...
[14:30]	:	sounds like community consensus to me - let's drop it
[14:30]	:	Combine it with grid-selection
[14:30]	:	what latif said. snowglobe 1.x is dead to me now because of it
[14:30]	:	It makes life a lot easier *if* you only log in to a few grids
[14:30]	:	I like it but I only log into Agni and Aditi.
[14:30]	:	Not saying you need a complete grid setup for each account, buyt that the account list be managed be part of that
[14:31]	:	and you use different names on each grid, and your grids are on different host names, and you never use -loginuri
[14:31]	:	Grid selection: we talked about it Tuesday, we need a design though and code
[14:31]	:	one problem with it is to enter a new grid for an existing username, you have to run it the appropriate command line arguments, then be aware of the quirks of LLComboBox
[14:31]	:	Yeah, just saying it hasn't hurt me as I only care about Second Life grids.
[14:31]	:	i.e. typing first name then hitting delete before moving focus to the last name iinput
[14:32]	:	it simply doesn't work, cannot be disabled either, and kills login params from command line
[14:32]	:	can't that be simply fixed?
[14:32]	:	command line could be made to override this
[14:32]	:	it could be removed entirely, that would be a significant improvement
[14:32]	:	yes, i agreee
[14:33]	:	I think it might relatively easy to add a setting to disable it.
[14:33]	:	You could have a debug setting to turn it off and on
[14:33]	:	it's already a usability nightmare. throwing debug settings into the mix is just going to pile worse on top of bad
[14:33]	:	It's still useful to SL users
[14:33]	:	i guess this is why there are separate viewers for SL and opensim grids
[14:33]	:	Merov, did you try to uncheck "remember" checkbox?
[14:34]	:	I think anyone smart enough to use a command line can manage a debug setting
[14:34]	:	If there are changes comming down the pipeline to addres this issues, punt on 2.0 untill the Login interface has settled down a bit. For snow 1.4, a debug setting to disable it to workaround the problems folks are having with it now.
[14:34]	:	Latif: nope
[14:34]	:	jonathan: automatic launcher tools use the command line too
[14:34]	:	doesn't work
[14:34]	:	Latif - in what way does it not work?
[14:35]	:	k, well, as far as SNOW-670 is concerned, looks like few tears shed by punting this, may be undefinitely
[14:35]	:	nothing in that patch works except for the extremely limited use cases it was tested with (switching between two linden grids)
[14:35]	:	I'd appreciate a design though: handling miltiple identities is still a pain...
[14:35]	:	so drop it..
[14:35]	:	Emerald 1634 had a "saved login" feature, but I do not see it in build 2012
[14:35]	:	Oz, you unheck "remember user" (can't remember exact phrase) and it still acts as it is on on the next login
[14:36]	:	and it overrides login grid selection after you tab from First name field
[14:36]	:	unless you hit delete before you tab out...
[14:36]	:	(I thought that was fixed, but it turned out it wasn't.)
[14:36]	:	I like the idea of soliciting proposals for user storyboards for a feature to allow for login using different accounts on one or more grids
[14:36]	:	Many SL residents have alts and that why the patch was made in the first place, to handle more then one account on SL.
[14:37]	:	That makes sense.
[14:37]	:	All Lindens will appreciate it :-)
[14:37]	:	+1 techwolf
[14:37]	:	What happened, i was busy crashing?
[14:38]	:	well, looks like we're 2 JIRA closer to completing 2.0...
[14:38]	:	Tech, it's useful, but the implementation is too buggy to be at the point where it's more hassle than it's worth
[14:38]	:	good :)
[14:38]	:	We decided to fix everything in 2.0 that makes everyone unhappy. It will be done by Tuesday :)
[14:38]	:	The problem I see with with recreating the "grid maanger" patch that's in most TPVs is that it's not my idea of fun to rewrite gpl code.
[14:38]	:	But the HUGE obstictable with it is how to handle the same acount on different grids, aditi and agini, and diffrernet accounts on same grid and different grids. The maingrid and beta grid thows monkey wrenches in mulit account handling.
[14:39]	:	Select grid First. Then select Accont within that grid.
[14:39]	:	sounds good that way
[14:39]	:	If you only use one grid, then you never touch that part of it
[14:39]	 	likes that
[14:39]	:	While I have not seen it, there is a grid handleer some tpv group created.
[14:39]	:	techwolf: there are more grids than just "main and beta" grid, too. the quirks of handling all of the different grid scenarios need to be considered
[14:39]	:	Or get a copy of Emerald 1634 and look how they did it
[14:39]	:	I think SNOW-129 was under the contraint of not adding any more control to the login screen (decreed by Philip, IIRC)
[14:39]	:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-129 
[#SNOW-129] Select account from list at login
[14:40]	:	actually this is what we have in imprudence
[14:40]	:	I think you're right Thickbrick
[14:41]	:	but I don't think handling mutplitple acounts in mutiple grids can fit that constraint
[14:41]	:	but since that login screen is changing quite a bit in 2.0.2, seems like a good opportunity to rethik that
[14:41]	:	why not hve it do <viewer><account><grid> type foldering system
[14:41]	:	looks like a good discussion to have on opensource-dev
[14:42]	:	since the viwer all ready dose that for the most part
[14:42]	:	I'll punt those JIRA and notify opensource-dev, starting the discussion on this
[14:43]	:	k, let's move on
[14:43]	:	2. the future of 1.x: features in 1.x most important to move in 2.x
[14:43]	:	skins
[14:43]	:	1.x UI ?
[14:43]	:	Mulitlogin.
[14:44]	 	lol
[14:44]	:	yes please bring back the skins
[14:44]	:	Mini-map pan and profile pop.
[14:44]	:	skins, good
[14:44]	:	auto translator
[14:44]	:	i miss the silver skin that is in 1.x
[14:44]	:	minimap is in...
[14:44]	:	non intrusive chat
[14:44]	:	I'm working on auto translator
[14:44]	:	"Show Muted Text" option
[14:45]	 	whispers: Is "mute" client side or server side enforced?
[14:45]	:	Is "mute" client side or server side enforced?
[14:45]	:	textbox focus
[14:45]	:	I'm currently working on something that will reenable skins to be usable, they are not actually that broken
[14:45]	:	client downloads a mute list when it logs in
[14:45]	:	you can show muted people objects in 2.x
[14:46]	:	After typing ctrl-I to open inventory, move input focus to the Search field
[14:46]	:	yes, muting in 2 is good.
[14:46]	:	VWR-18496
[14:46]	:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-18496 
[#VWR-18496] opening inventory with shortcut doesn't gives focus to the search field
[14:46]	:	On IRC, mute was client side, but the dialup link could still be DoSed, so a new server side commend was created, /silence <nick>
[14:46]	:	I reopened this one...
[14:46]	:	I wonder why it is client side?
[14:46]	:	ah you just explained that :)
[14:47]	:	EXT-6104
[14:47]	:	VWR-18496 is one of those "Intended Behavior" bugs
[14:47]	:	VWR-19509
[14:47]	:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-19509 
[#VWR-19509] Lack of "Show Muted Text" feature in 2.** viewer
[14:47]	:	Doesn't server side muting take some burden off the servers? SO that they need not send that data to the client? Or is the muting process more work than sending it would be?
[14:47]	:	would be nice if the ststus inducators were in the top bar like in 1.x i miss those
[14:48]	:	and get rid of this stupid adress bar
[14:48]	:	You can right click the address bar to get rid of it
[14:48]	:	WolfPup, right click that bar, the settings are hidden in there.
[14:48]	:	bau: server muting would be more work than it would save, at least in our server implementations
[14:48]	:	but then we don't have land name & infos.
[14:48]	:	Thanks, Eddy.
[14:49]	:	Land name used to be up in the menu bar
[14:49]	:	hmmm... I never realized that mute was such a popular feature
[14:49]	:	I click on parcel name to get the parcel properties. 2.0 killed that.
[14:49]	:	mute can save your sl experience...
[14:49]	:	Mojito: you can put the land name back with a preference change
[14:50]	:	Mute allws people to refrain from shooting one another.
[14:50]	 	needs mute in RL
[14:50]	:	Linden doesn't know how use use the viewer, Merov. That has been made VERY CLEAR with the unveiling of 2.0.
[14:50]	:	good point Ardy.
[14:50]	:	Mute is not just for griefers - it also helps when you have people who talk in Voice and fill the chat with useless gestures (see above re gesturbators)
[14:51]	:	ok.... as much fun as it might be, that sort of generality does not get us any closer to fixing anything
[14:51]	:	that is so right thick
[14:51]	:	THough some objects noise escapes Mute.
[14:51]	:	I know a language school that uses mute in Voice all the time, when breaking up into separate groups during class
[14:51]	:	we need to find the specific changes that need to be made
[14:51]	:	I tried. My JIRAs get closed "ecpected behaviour".
[14:52]	:	The fact that it is "expected" is actually the bug. :)
[14:52]	 	sputters with rueful sympathetic laughter
[14:52]	:	24 of them completely vanished from my sight.
[14:52]	:	file them against snowglobe
[14:52]	:	if you've got the numbers, they can be resurected
[14:52]	:	Bring the 1.X UI behavior back and most of things will be fixed.
[14:53]	:	SnowGLobe was *supposed* to be the leading edge where new ideas were tried out to eventually end up in the main viewer. Is that no longer the plan?
[14:53]	:	Lilly... please .... _specifics_
[14:53]	:	The specifics are all in JIRA
[14:53]	:	It is hard to imagine that the work of making V2.x decent is worthwhile, when it is so deeply bad.
[14:53]	:	as mojito points out...
[14:53]	:	The underlying core of 2.0 UI is actually better, if we can port 1.X things we like to the 2.0 XUI implementation it would be a good thing
[14:53]	:	just the way the interface behaves...
[14:54]	:	learning curve is the pits
[14:54]	:	for 2
[14:54]	:	I really think skinning is the way forward here
[14:54]	:	Oz, a starting step might be to hunt for EXT issues that don't need to be secret and move them to VWR
[14:54]	:	the framerate drop is also imrpessive. well.
[14:54]	:	Robin: +1, "baby and bath water" metaphor in order
[14:54]	:	Pardon, I did not mean to draw us off topic.
[14:55]	:	Lilly: the perf issues are surely something I'd like to focus more
[14:55]	:	(during the closed beta for 2.0 testers supposedly filed a lot of EXT issues that are now only visible to Lindens)
[14:55]	:	Yes, frame rate in 2 is slower than 1.4 for me PLUS things LOD more agressively. Render detail is worse in 2 for some reason.
[14:56]	:	Thickbrick: making fewer things hidden is a major theme of my job, and I suspect that getting even close to the openness I'd like will take some time
[14:56]	:	Ardy: I did port a fix for that in SG2.0 as you know :)
[14:56]	:	Merov : looks like it's caused by the chat bubbles
[14:56]	:	we tested together
[14:56]	:	Ardy that is also very disappointing to me. THe visual quality of SL matters very much to me. Over half the reason I am in SL pertains to the arts.
[14:56]	:	Performance is one of the things that will certainly get immediate attention
[14:56]	:	Merov, that's not the LOD issues I am referring to.
[14:56]	:	Fuzzy videos certainly will discourage machinima makers
[14:57]	:	I am referring to that fact that prims are rendered with less detail under like conditions in 2.0.2
[14:57]	:	Oz: usability is also important..
[14:57]	:	Ardy: even tweaking graphics prefs?
[14:58]	:	"in like conditions"
[14:58]	:	I am using the same setting on SG 1.4 and Viewer 2.0.2
[14:58]	:	my current build of 2.x is only running 8.5FPS while im here
[14:58]	:	I understand that many things are important... I also understand that if the community abandons 2x completely instead of working on one thing at a time to make improvements, that the future becomes much harder to shape
[14:58]	:	I see an extra setting in V2.0.2 that SG1.4 does not have: Max Avatar Draw Distance - 35 m
[14:59]	:	The community gave you a list of specific changes when 2.0 first hit the streets
[14:59]	:	JIRA JIRA JIRA
[14:59]	:	many many many sugestions :)
[14:59]	:	When 2.0 first hit the streets, I was not here
[14:59]	:	but they turned to be "intended behavior"
[14:59]	:	JIRA is still here.
[14:59]	:	yes, what happened to those
[15:00]	:	Listen... I am trying hard to come up to speed... what I'm asking for is help
[15:00]	:	I understand your frustration
[15:00]	:	Oz, there was over 5,000 jiras filed during the closed beta.
[15:00]	:	you can have an idea just by checking the "viewer 2 tweaks" wiki page...
[15:00]	:	It is explicity my job to fix this relationship
[15:00]	:	looks like we need a loong triage session though EXT...
[15:00]	:	Oz, Do you want to make a meta issue in JIRA that we can attach our interest so?
[15:00]	:	but I can't do it if everyone just says "all you lindens are the same and don't care"
[15:00]	:	I am sure no one meant to blame you, Oz. You are hearing a generalized frustration.
[15:00]	:	I care
[15:00]	:	you have a huge job
[15:00]	:	I will try to fix it
[15:00]	:	Oz, this is not what we're saying.
[15:00]	:	If Linden ignores the established feedback mechanism, you can understand the frustration on our end
[15:01]	:	I cannot do it unless I get help
[15:01]	:	from you
[15:01]	:	I am very gload you are on the job to fix it, Oz :)
[15:01]	:	I absolutely understand your frustration
[15:01]	:	I
[15:01]	:	Oz, we have. Linden ignored us. :-(
[15:01]	:	just explain why all suggestions & jiras are closed without getting fixed.
[15:01]	:	But we are not going to fix your closed code for you
[15:01]	:	I'm asking you to cut _me_personally_ some slack
[15:01]	:	and work with me to get things fixed again
[15:01]	:	how can we?
[15:01]	:	Oh *that* we can do
[15:02]	:	Lilly and others, start a notecard with all the jira getting closed as "expected behivious" that should not be so it can be handle out to others and Lindens.
[15:02]	:	how can we help if we feel we are not heard?
[15:02]	:	STart with looking at all the stuff in JIRA, I suppose. Pick out the reasonable requests
[15:02]	:	Linden actually didn't completely ignore you... they understood that they had a problem, and that they didn't really know how to solve it, so they went out and hired someone to help them figure it out. That someone is ME
[15:02]	:	You know, I always feel encouraged when I see that an issue is at least assigned to a LInden to work upon. I don't need things to be perfect. That's not possible in a world that is essentially always in beta. It is discouraging to feel that things get worse instead of better. It is encouraging to see evidence that problems are getting addressed. THus the disappearance of JIRAs that people created in good faith is demoralizing.
[15:03]	:	ok, so you can report that we're VERY upset :)
[15:03]	:	I will keep saying it until someone takes me up on it.... I am listening
[15:03]	:	does a report that we are upset go anywhere?
[15:03]	:	Before they hired you, they hired some outside consultants who never used SL. LL has to be willing to rexamine some of the advice they got.
[15:03]	:	but I need to find small steps that we can take together to rebuild a relationship based on mutual trust
[15:03]	:	I don't expect you to believe I can fix everything - I can't
[15:04]	:	Oz, what exactly do you want us to do to present the individual issues to you? They are already all in JIRA.
[15:04]	:	ok, for that the first thing is NOT IGNORING JIRA
[15:04]	:	oz i would enjoy comeing to your OH's but schedualing conflicts are goiung to pervent me from being able to attend them at all
[15:04]	:	that will be difficlt
[15:04]	:	Oz, is Q your boss at LL?
[15:04]	:	Believe me... I have been communicating your distress very clearly
[15:04]	:	:) Luckily, Oz, fixing bugs and redeisgning banjaxed features will also build trust. So no one has to be a world class diplomat here. :)
[15:04]	:	but if all they hear is that your mad, it's hard to work out how to fix it
[15:05]	:	Let me talk about the state of JIRA for just a moment
[15:05]	:	If people thought that the work they put into SG actually went somewhere upstream, it might improve willingness to put some work in
[15:05]	:	Oz, can you think of a way besides the JIRA that residents can help you prioritize?
[15:05]	:	Or to understand how LL prioritizes?
[15:05]	:	i agree with Mojito
[15:05]	:	we need to know we are heard
[15:05]	:	everybody please link (as child) your favorite Viewer 2 problems to Meta-Issue: Viewer 2 Problems https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-19310
[15:05]	:	[#VWR-19310] Meta-Issue: Viewer 2 Problems
[15:06]	:	Not just heard. The contributions have to actually get adopted at some point.
[15:06]	:	why do anything if it goes nowhere
[15:06]	:	There is a plan being put together to upgrade the Jira software Concurrent with that, some improvements to workflow will be made - the net effect of which will be at least some (how much remains to be seen) increase in transparency
[15:06]	:	I really think we just need to tune Linden's use of pJIRA. I don't really like the use of "back channels" for communication of non-security issues.
[15:06]	:	Cool. A more accessible JIRA would be helpful.
[15:07]	:	I am pushing that very point hard, Ardy
[15:07]	:	good
[15:07]	:	My last project hid only security issues
[15:07]	:	+1 on Ardy's suggestion: one unified JIRA would help tremendously
[15:07]	:	It will now be one Jira
[15:07]	:	I think probably people realize that voting on JIRA issues is n itself not what should guide priorities in fixes. People tend to vote out of self-interest and not according to the needs of all and the big picture.
[15:07]	:	w00t
[15:07]	 	time check : past 7 min
[15:08]	:	i need to head for a meeing on the beta grid
[15:08]	:	self interest is good!
[15:08]	:	OPensource : for sg2 and viewer3 meta?
[15:08]	:	Thanks for the meeting, Merov.
[15:08]	:	viewer2
[15:08]	:	yes, so many times issue gets imported to DEV, and after that a ton of comments that could help fix it gets inserted, and the original one is never updated with any feedback from devs
[15:08]	:	if everyone has the same self interest then it points to a real need
[15:08]	:	Slef Interest sometimes means "I use this feature and count on it"
[15:08]	:	Nicky: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-19310 is for Viewer 2
[15:08]	:	[#VWR-19310] Meta-Issue: Viewer 2 Problems
[15:09]	:	glad you recognize it...
[15:09]	:	there is a meta-issue for source code problems
[15:09]	:	Thanks Oz and Merov!
[15:09]	:	thanks guys...
[15:09]	:	ttfn
[15:09]	:	Merov, SNOW-169 committed
[15:09]	:	Merov, before you go, there's a new #opensl IRC channel on Freenode
[15:09]	:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-169 
[#SNOW-169] Viewer crash: LLViewerImage::doLoadedCallbacks: ASSERT (mRawImage.notNull())
[15:10]	:	If your IRC problems were EFnet specific, Freenode would probably work better.
[15:10]	:	Oh and Oz, still no word from SL7B? and its 3PM now ;-(
[15:10]	:	It is to some. 16 charater nicks is huge plus.
[15:10]	:	I'll try to find out what's up with that Robin
[15:12]	:	Also, about SNOW-700, it's already implemented in 2.0.2, so I don't think we need to port it.
[15:12]	:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-700 
[#SNOW-700] Port of SNOW-197 to SG 2.0 : Avatar overall true height info to appearance editor window
[15:13]	 	read Thickbrick's note
[15:13]	:	thanks
[15:13]	:	Ok, nn all
 
Generated with SLog Wikifier