Content Creation Improvement Informal User Group/Archive/July 3rd, 2012 Meeting

15:06 	Geenz Spad  	so, welcome everyone to the first content creation improvement meeting!
15:07 	  	these meetings are informal meetings, with the intention of coming up with ideas to improve the state of content creation for second life
15:08 	Siddean Munro  	Hi Oz :)
  	Geenz Spad  	the idea is for people to discuss their ideas in a collaborative environment, and if everyone can agree on an idea, that idea will hopefully be made into a proposal at some point for Linden Lab, and prototypes demonstrating that functionality will also eventually be submitted as well
15:09 	  	moving on, the first item on the agenda:
  	  	Educating users on efficiency, and Linden Lab setting building standards. (Stickman)
15:10 	  	this is an interesting one
  	  	care to elaborate Stickman?
  	Stickman Ingmann  	Sure.
15:12 	  	A lot of content creators come into Second Life without any prior knowledge of how 3D rendering works. Video game companies usually establish a "polygon budget" and a "texture memory budget." At any time, no more than said amount can be displayed on the screen, or it overwhelms the console, or system that the game is being developed for. Second Life has no set budgets or limits. There's no information about the average or minimum system used to access SL. Content creators have no direction on what can and can't be done in Second Life.
  	  	Sometimes this isn't a problem. Sometimes it results in horrible, wasteful creations, that don't need to be so complex and expensive.
15:13 	Geenz Spad  	so basically, you'd like to educate content creators on making more efficient content?
  	Asha  	That is seriously needed now that more mesh is hitting the grid.
  	Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy  	I really agree with this. I've seen some things made in mesh that could have been SO much lower land impact, and with smaller res textures without losing quality
  	Stickman Ingmann  	Yes. Get information about the kinds of systems people use, what they're capable of handling. What viewers people use, what features people have enabled.
[15:13] LockallLockall is now active on Inara Pey
15:14 	Asha  	Like boots with 60,000 triangles. o.o
  	Lindsay Pinelli  	thank you Siddean xD
  	Geenz Spad  	well, I don't think LL will be direclty setting a standard that everyone will need to work around, but I think it's worth discussing ideas for what a standard should be
  	Stickman Ingmann  	I've got an old Jira somewhat related to the issue, too: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/WEB-2596 About collecting opt-in stats, so content creators know what kinds of system and features they're creating for.
  	Braydon Randt  	sorry to bring up a chestnut .... but refing build behavour is all well in good , but games use nomals and specular materials systems ... sl can barely squeeze mesh out of its bones
  	Geenz Spad  	as more of an informal standard that people should be working within
15:15 	Siddean Munro  	Rather than a standard, what about we propose some documentation on good v bad?
  	Geenz Spad  	Braydon: we'll touch on that one a bit later
  	  	Siddean's idea could work
  	Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy  	Even if it's just getting the information and education out there, letting people know what they can achieve without going crazy with polys
  	Crash Uladstron  	I'm with Sid,I think a standard is unrealistic
  	Siddean Munro  	I think there's a bit of guesswork going on from people not in the professional biz, so to speak
  	Crash Uladstron  	but a page on the wiki describing what to aim for
  	Stickman Ingmann  	Geenz, I'm looking for cold hard facts. If someone wants to cater to the top-end systems only? Let them. If they want to create something that even the lowest system that connects to SL can see perfectly? Then they can do that. But right now, it's all shooting in the dark. We have no information.
15:16 	Asha  	Yes, the point is that some people have no idea what the best practices are. It would be nice for LL to provide an official word on it.
  	Siddean Munro  	If there was some documentation specifically related to this, it might help people get more efficient builds
  	Caine Munro  	Real problem to me seems to be financial incentive: If you make a low-poly item that's well done and within a reasonable budget, someone who comes along and blows any poly budget out of the water will look a lot better in advertisements and end up selling more items on marketplace and such.
  	Braydon Randt  	LL have the policy ... that you can create what you want as long as you are prepared to pay the upload cost for bad modelling ,. the user on the other hand ... suffers the results
  	Martin RJ  	Braydon there have been mirrors, once, but Windlight broke them
  	Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy  	The problem with catering to one end or another is that tech is getting better as such a rapid rate, targetting a specific tier of tech wouldn't be viable, there'd be a replacement a month later.
  	Geenz Spad  	maybe we should look at from more of a "if you want to target this group of people, you should work around these constraints" point of view
  	  	that's generally how the game industry looks at it
15:17 	Oz Linden  	The problem is that the range is too wide for documentation to be of much use to you. If you can imagine it, someone connects to SL with it (and some you probably would never guess). No one system time is even close to more than a low single digit percentage.
  	  	s/time/type/
  	Geenz Spad  	for example, for high-end PC games, typically a 10,000 triangle character mesh is "okay" for a high detail mesh
15:18 	Crash Uladstron  	You can't tho because people interract,you target something for powerfull computer owners and their friends with low end computer comes by their 2343545 triangle place
  	Geenz Spad  	that's fair enough, but this is where we start looking at the different "classes" of hardware
  	Braydon Randt  	so are we ultimately catering to the lowest comming demoninator ?
15:19 	Geenz Spad  	not at all
  	Braydon Randt  	common*
  	Raz Welles  	I suppose if you wanted to be harsh you could let a region owner dictate how many polys and textures a person is going to be alotted on entering a sim, I'm not a big fan of that idea though :x
  	Siddean Munro  	What would help solve this issue is bump maps ;) Just as an aside
  	Braydon Randt  	it would help some .... not all
  	Raz Welles  	Normal maps would certainly help
  	Asha  	Normal maps ftw
  	Geenz Spad  	well, to be fair, custom bump maps do help substantially
15:20 	'Kota Buck  	But would be great
  	Geenz Spad  	which I guess kind of blends into #3
  	Stickman Ingmann  	Raz, the last thing I want is hard limits like that. LL's been doing a lot of work on making a technical solution for "lag." Letting people create their excessive products, and then trying to make the system handle displaying them with minimal lag. I believe a better solution is information, education. Tell content creators what's reasonable.
  	Braydon Randt  	the useability of them is not in question , but only certain users have the ability to create such maps ... others .. use templates etc and dont have access
  	Raz Welles  	Stick: and thus I mentioned at the end I don't like the idea either
  	Caine Munro  	Keep in mind though this isn't fundamentally a tech problem - it is a social one. Without creator incentive to make low(ish) poly items, it'll never be a priority when making new items.
15:21 	Raz Welles  	I think Caine is right
  	Stickman Ingmann  	So Oz. You said things are all over the chart. But that doesn't make the information useless. It just means that there are a lot of demographs.
  	Raz Welles  	though I have seen people do top notch popular stuff with single texture maps zoned
  	Caine Munro  	A way to incentivise low poly creation would be to make it really clear at purchase time what sort of lag the item 'could' cause. Which is it's own enormous can of worms.
  	Geenz Spad  	I think it'd help if content creators knew what kind of hardware classes are the most common
  	Raz Welles  	any way you slice it, the materials project has a lot to offer
  	Asha  	And yet, som have no frame of reference of what low poly means. That is why there needs to be education from an official channel.
  	  	*some
15:22 	Raz Welles  	You could save texture space baking your lighting and reusing repeating textures
  	Braydon Randt  	im sure theres some users .. who want to access SL .. with a computer no more powerfull than an Iphone
  	Stickman Ingmann  	I don't want to spend the whole time arguing about what information is and isn't useful for content creators to have. Can we move on to the materials project? I'd really like to hear more about that.
15:23 	Raz Welles  	Yeah what's up on materials
  	Geenz Spad  	well, education is one problem that we'd have to find ways to fix amongst our selves, and we definitely won't be figuring out how to fix that problem in a single meeting
  	Braydon Randt  	well .... cload party have them ... SL doesnt .... hense the migration
  	  	cloud*
15:24 	Geenz Spad  	so, materials!
  	Tyr Rozenblum  	I was going to say that, well sort of. Cloud party has bumps/materials/etc.
  	Oz Linden  	Think about what metrics you could expose in the viewer to help people understand what contributes to costs
  	Braydon Randt  	again ... we are catering to lowest common denominator
  	Tyr Rozenblum  	not to compare i know the intention isnt to talk about other games. But its browser based and will be able to eventually run on tablets
  	'Kota Buck  	I'm not sure you can really call it a migration to cloud party at this point.
  	Geenz Spad  	I know plenty of things about materials.
  	Tyr Rozenblum  	definatly not a migration lol
  	Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy  	It's not a migration, it's not even out of it's first week.
15:25 	Geenz Spad  	first off, a solution has been proposed to LL
  	sachi Vixen  	I don't think bumpers persay will make people migratebut they are certainly going tohelp content there look classy. Add that to a genius, simple UI and you have a potential winner.
  	Stickman Ingmann  	More about materials, less about Cloud Party.
  	Siddean Munro  	Offtopic people, can we get back to the materials? :)
  	Braydon Randt  	thats my point .... i want materials .... more than pathfinders ... or being able to view on a calcualtor
  	Tyr Rozenblum  	I was using the comparison to say that it is possible to get it and people on dated computers still run alright.
  	Martin RJ  	lol Braydon
15:26 	sachi Vixen  	That was bump maps not car bumpers
[15:26] AshaAsha chuckles at Braydon
  	Geenz Spad  	the solution proposed was a collaboration between myself and Ash Qin
  	  	what did make it into the proposal is such:
  	  	custom bump maps
  	  	custom specular maps
15:27 	Braydon Randt  	we have a great system with second life ... and i want to see it kick competitors asses ... i want it to have the technology that was available at least 10 years ago ... so not having a materials system is not really acceptable in this day and age
  	Geenz Spad  	and a couple of other things I won't quite get into as of yet
  	Martin RJ  	how'd you make that backwards-compatible, Geenz?
  	Geenz Spad  	but what I will say, is progress is being made, and hopefully there'll be more information soon
[15:27] LockallLockall is now active on Inara Pey
15:28 	Raz Welles  	Sorry I want to get something cleared up for myself, am I correct in assuming we're using bump maps and normal maps as interchangeable terms here? I thought bump maps referred to single dimension heights while normal maps can account for lighting in 3 dimensions
  	Siddean Munro  	Is there any way we can keep tabs on it?
  	Asha  	Is this project for a specific viewer?
  	Stickman Ingmann  	So you told me you had more information than anyone else on materials, and all you're going to say is "progress is being made, but we can't tell you what?"
  	Geenz Spad  	Asha: this project is for the official viewer, but of course other TPVs will benefit directly from it as such
[15:28] AshaAsha waves to Phadrus. ^^
  	Asha  	Ok thanks Geenz
15:29 	Braydon Randt  	aso bottom line .. no BS ... is a materials system being develped ?
  	Caine Munro  	Stick: No point promising things that aren't certain yet.
  	Geenz Spad  	Braydon: work is being done, and the overall hope is that we'll be able to show you something soon :)
  	Braydon Randt  	terms like " hope" .... come along with " possible"
15:30 	Typhaon Nishi  	is there a place for updates on this project as Siddean asked previously?
  	Siddean Munro  	That's more promising than nothing is happening at all :)
  	Braydon Randt  	yet ... what i want to know is " yes its being done..." sorry to sound like yoda yere ... but " there is no try .... only do"
  	Asha  	I'm glad to hear someone is working on adding bump and specular maps.
  	Toast Bard  	haha
15:31 	Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy  	There's definitely progress at least, that's good to hear
  	Geenz Spad  	unfortunately, right now updates will be coming as things are completed; of course there's some things I can't talk about here *yet*, but please understand I'm working as hard as I can to pretty up Second Life however I can :)
  	  	and materials is most definitely a large item on my to-do list
  	Oz Linden  	I'll try to de-mystify a bit.... Geenz is being careful
15:32 	Braydon Randt  	come on OZ .. educate me
  	  	by my light
  	  	guide me
  	Oz Linden  	They've been working on a proposal, and we've been looking at it very closely
  	Braydon Randt  	so 3 years then ?
15:33 	Siana Gearz  	why is the process not more open than that?
  	Oz Linden  	doing it would require some server side support, of course, and we've been trying to refine the goals to be something we can get done
  	Stickman Ingmann  	Heh. Why is everything in SL so closed now? They used to tell us what broke and why and how they fixed it when the servers went down.
  	Martin RJ  	because some TPV-devs would jump on it right at this very moment and implement features that aren't finished yet - I believe
  	Siana Gearz  	>.<
15:34 	Caine Munro  	As an unrelated developer talking: It's not more open than that because there's not a lot of point to have non-technical input on a very technical implementation and Braydon - where do you think code comes from?
  	Martin RJ  	not you :P
  	Siana Gearz  	Caine, well, some code could come from ME but i feel excluded from the get go.
  	Stickman Ingmann  	So what's the scope of the materials project? Bumpmap, specular, normal maps? More or less than that?
  	Braydon Randt  	allthough i accept and agree, that rushing forward can mean a lot of clean up for the mistakes that get dragged in , i can also say ... that the overall server side issues asside ... the content creators want it ... they need it ... it will reduce load on the servers with reduced model cost ... ergo its a win win
15:35 	Geenz Spad  	for a version 1 release, more or less that Stickman
  	Oz Linden  	that's still not nearly decided, Stickman
  	Braydon Randt  	ive got a degree in real time systems programming from Brighton Uni ... so im not exactl spethal
  	Geenz Spad  	but we're still determining what will be in a version 1 release, but I promise everyone here, that the moment I can say something more, I will
15:36 	Stickman Ingmann  	And you can't give us a time? "Within three years" or "before Christmas" or any of that?
  	Braydon Randt  	thats my question .. just knowing that it is on the horizon is good to know
  	Geenz Spad  	what I will say regarding timeline is more speculation at this point, so please don't take this as a promise in any form
  	Braydon Randt  	as " maybe and possibly" is a no
  	Geenz Spad  	I can't stress that enough
15:37 	Stickman Ingmann  	I understand time estimates. I would hope everyone here is a content creator and has blown through their own deadlines.
  	Geenz Spad  	but my hope is, we'll have something shown off to the community, and something for people to be testing by the end of the year, or sometime early next year
  	Stickman Ingmann  	That's promising, at least.
15:38 	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	whats this for?
  	Geenz Spad  	this isn't something I have any intention of dragging out any longer than it needs to be
  	Raz Welles  	Stick: I don't have deadlines anymore, I've blown so far past them they've become the undead-lines
  	Geenz Spad  	Tank: materials
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	more spcifically?
[15:38] Oz LindenOz Linden has to leave...
  	  	tc oz
  	Siddean Munro  	Ok oz, thanks for coming
  	Stickman Ingmann  	Thanks for coming, Oz.
15:39 	  	Not too much time left, should we move on to the next topic?
  	Typhaon Nishi  	cheers Oz
  	Geenz Spad  	anyways, moving on to our next agenda item
  	  	Discussing morph targets for deforming mesh. (Siddean Munro)
  	Stickman Ingmann  	I can fill up the end of the meeting with a number of Jiras about content creation tools I pulled up.
  	Martin RJ  	Bye Oz
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	sorry I was late, i was told this started at 3:30
  	Siddean Munro  	We have a third item on the agenda
  	Geenz Spad  	Stickman: by all means
  	Siddean Munro  	4th, I should say
  	Geenz Spad  	but yeah, so, morph targets
  	Stickman Ingmann  	First, Siddean's morph targets. Is that a thing? An actual possibility? I was told we were getting custom bones, no morph targets. Ever.
15:40 	Raz Welles  	Yeah we were initially shut down on morph targets
  	  	a solid loud resounding "no"
  	Geenz Spad  	I've had a couple of conversations regarding this
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	wheres the agenda?
  	Geenz Spad  	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation_Improvement_Informal_User_Group
  	Siddean Munro  	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation_Improvement_Informal_User_Group
  	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks 	thx
15:41 	Geenz Spad  	from what I'm hearing, it's not a definite "no"
  	  	but there are however, some things that need to happen before that on LL's side
  	Raz Welles  	totally listening now
  	Stickman Ingmann  	Do you have a list of the things that need to happen on their side, or is it just a nebulous excuse for them to finish without accountability?
15:43 	  	Any news on custom skeletons, or have those not been mentioned?
  	Geenz Spad  	I don't have a 100%% definite list of things that need to happen, but I have an overall gist; there's a few backend things that will need to happen, and there's a few file format things that'll need to happen; some of it a viewer developer can handle, the rest of it LL has to handle
  	  	those haven't been mentioned to me
  	Siddean Munro  	Is there a jira or proposal doco for this?
  	Stickman Ingmann  	So it sounds like we're more likely to get morph targets than custom skeletons at this point.
15:44 	Geenz Spad  	so anyways, back on the subject of morph targets
  	Tyr Rozenblum  	Something I wondered and Oz, or anyone directly involved might be able to answer this best. Something that concerned me (even though i was and am one of the ones pushing for it)
  	Geenz Spad  	let's discuss how morph targets would effect content creators
  	Tyr Rozenblum  	is what about mesh out now. We know with the deformer its atleast useable. But would the new 'cbones" being introduced back in, effect everything out on the grid to date?
15:45 	Geenz Spad  	from my understanding regarding cBones, they're additional bones you can optionally rig your mesh to
  	Siddean Munro  	You would probably have to reweight your mesh
  	Stickman Ingmann  	Morph targets would make up for all of the things the skeleton can't handle. Wiggling toes, bending fingers, facial expressions. You could even use it for slider-base face customization on custom mesh avatars.
  	Geenz Spad  	if they're not rigged, your mesh shouldn't really deform around them, but I'd like to have RedPoly discuss how that'd effect content creators
15:46 	Siddean Munro  	Custom morph targets would be my personal preference
15:47 	Geenz Spad  	so anyways, morph targets; for those of you who don't really know what these are, they'd basically enable a content creator to "paint" how they want their meshes to look if they adjusted a slider
[15:47] AshaAsha would prefer morph targets as well.
15:48 	  	so you could for example, have a muscular morph target, or a slim morph target, or even a fat morph target; and all content creators would have to do is sculpt these shapes out to how they feel the final result should look
  	Stickman Ingmann  	I want anything. If I can't get custom skeletons, I'll make due with morph targets. Both have some serious strengths and drawbacks, but something is better than nothing.
  	  	Especially considering we don't have "UUID flipping" on meshes.
  	Raz Welles  	The most powerful combination would be the ability to dictate animation position and morph target position in a single llsetprimitiveparamsfast
15:49 	Geenz Spad  	now really, at its core, there's two different questions that should be discussed concerning morph targets
  	Siddean Munro  	Morph targets would add more work, but about as much work as adding and weighting to extra bones, methinks. From a builder's perspective
15:50 	Geenz Spad  	the content creator facing question is, how should the content creators work with this? what kind of work flow would be ideal?
  	Crash Uladstron  	we're doing a lot of work as things are now anyway
  	Siddean Munro  	Yep
  	Anouk Spot  	yeah
  	Asha  	No kidding
  	Typhaon Nishi  	(insert affirmative response here)
  	Geenz Spad  	I imagine being able to sculpt how a mesh should deform would be a god send :P
  	Raz Welles  	from a time perspective, I do like the no-extra-work nature of Qarl's deformer, if you could bake that server side like you bake textures I think that would be pretty ace
15:51 	Siddean Munro  	could the morph target information be included in the SLM file for upload?
  	Crash Uladstron  	it would be yes
  	Braydon Randt  	trying to work within a system ... with still allow existing content .. just newer content will have the new finctionality , wether you choose to update your content is a personal choice
  	Stickman Ingmann  	I'm not sure I understand the question. We make various morph targets for a mesh, we probably name them something specific in the file before we upload them. Then we access them via script or some new UI element to slide the mesh between the morphs.
  	Raz Welles  	siddean: you shoudl be able to
  	  	Morphs are just the same set of verts with different positions, and then interpolated between the two
  	Geenz Spad  	Siddean: with a few extensions to the format, yes
  	Siddean Munro  	Like.. just thinking aloud, morph targets or shape keys with the same name as the SL morph targets they are related to
15:52 	Raz Welles  	it's a linear interpolation so it can only really go in a straight line if it's between two morphs
  	  	though multiple morphs at one time may let you correct that
  	Geenz Spad  	Raz: we'll focus on the technical side of the conversation on the next meeting
  	Raz Welles  	ok
  	Geenz Spad  	since we only have 8 minutes left
  	Raz Welles  	d'oh
15:53 	Geenz Spad  	so anyways, I guess we could do something like, specifying groups that correspond to different shape sliders on the existing avatar mesh
  	  	and if you want your mesh to morph around those parameters, you simply add your morph target to that group in whatever 3D application you use
15:54 	Siddean Munro  	That's what makes sense to me
  	Raz Welles  	This might be out of bounds but, maybe you could dynamically generate the set of sliders and UI by reading the file? It would mean a new floater though
  	Geenz Spad  	that would be awesome
  	Raz Welles  	Then you wouldn't be restricted to what's in the viewer
  	Geenz Spad  	but right now, we have to look at it from what would likely make it into a version one release
15:55 	  	and the most obvious application for this would be an alternative to the mesh deformer to enable aritsts to specify how something should deform instead of leaving it up to the mesh deformer
15:56 	Asha  	And the Lindens are open to the morph target possibility now? They were dead set against it before.
  	Stickman Ingmann  	I'm having trouble understand your talk of mesh deforming and morph targets. These sound like different things.
  	Siddean Munro  	Would it be possible to have both systems side by side?
  	Raz Welles  	Morphs with LSL interface, newbies wouldn't be able to create sliders but plenty of people here are battle hardened to make theri own UI's
  	Stickman Ingmann  	Asha, that's what we just heard, yes. No word on custom skeletons, their "real" solution, and morph targets are a possibility.
  	Raz Welles  	Just another random thought heh
  	Geenz Spad  	I will say I haven't heard a "no", and I've heard that it would be cool if something were to be started, so we'll just have to see what happens
  	Raz Welles  	*their
15:57 	Asha  	Ah, I see.
  	Raz Welles  	gotcha
  	Typhaon Nishi  	maybe in time there could be an option to have the default deformer or have some kind of custom deformation
  	Asha  	Well, I guess that is an improvement over the solid no in the past.
  	Stickman Ingmann  	I don't know if everyone is on the same page here. "morph target" is a very specific 3D modeling term.
  	Siddean Munro  	We are on the right page Stick
  	Raz Welles  	morph target == shape key == blend shape
  	Geenz Spad  	Stickman: we are, it's more how they're being utilized
15:58 	Stickman Ingmann  	You create a model, say a face, and a second model, say the same face with the eyelids closed. Then you can "slide" between the two. They need to have the same number of faces, etc, and it interpolates the vertex positions between the two, depending on how far you push the slider.
  	Geenz Spad  	in this context, as an alternative to a solution that's been said to have sometimes spotty results
  	Siddean Munro  	That's what we're talking about
  	Crash Uladstron  	yes Stick
  	Stickman Ingmann  	Right, but I heard other people saying things that was confusing me. I wanted to make sure we were on the same page. Not saying it for those that already know.
  	Siddean Munro  	s an alternative to the deformer which calculates the distance the mesh has to float about the avvie skin
15:59 	  	With no creator control
  	Geenz Spad  	right
  	Crash Uladstron  	I do think a default deformer needs to be in place as well as this
  	Stickman Ingmann  	So are we talking about custom morph targets, or are we talking about hooking into the appearance settings and their morph targets?
16:00 	Geenz Spad  	Stickman: a bit of both
  	Typhaon Nishi  	yeah like a have a tick box option to use the "default deformer" or "custom deformations"
  	Siddean Munro  	For now we're talking about using the existing ones, but someone raised the question of customs
  	Geenz Spad  	in a perfect world, we'd have custom bones, custom morph targets, and similar
  	  	and an interface to expose the various settings for all o this
  	  	of*
  	Raz Welles  	and a better scripting language
  	Geenz Spad  	:P
  	Braydon Randt  	i want cake
  	Raz Welles  	xP
16:01 	Geenz Spad  	I still can't believe M shelved C# scripting :P
  	Asha  	Well, it would be nice if residents can come to a consensus on what they want the most...first.
  	  	They won't do them all.
  	Stickman Ingmann  	What I want would be custom morph targets. Unrelated to anything SL already has.
  	Braydon Randt  	mesh people want materials
  	  	clothing makers want materials and deformers
  	Geenz Spad  	honestly, I'd support Qarl's mesh deformer being an "easy" solution for those who don't really mind what the outcome is
  	Siddean Munro  	Right, Braydon :)
  	Braydon Randt  	non mesh makers .. want flexies, larger textures and no mesh
  	Raz Welles  	Yes for clothing, I think people would want to spend more time designing new clothes and less time weight painting
16:02 	MartinRJ Fayray  	I want hyperjump xD
  	Crash Uladstron  	morph targets is a good solution however entry level creators would need a default deformer imo
  	Braydon Randt  	and i .. personally ... still want cake
  	Geenz Spad  	I agree with Crash
  	Martin RJ  	I want Braydon's cake
  	Siddean Munro  	Yep, it's be nice to have both options
  	Geenz Spad  	looks like we'll be going a bit over our time limit discussing the content creation side of things
  	Siddean Munro  	sorry for typos, my fingers are frozen :/
  	Siana Gearz  	morph targets don't eat away on number of bones that a vertex can be affected by.
16:03 	Geenz Spad  	which is fine, we'll just pick up on the dev side of things next meeting
  	Asha  	The thing is...if you can build a model, you can build a morph. There isn't a huge skill jump there.
  	Raz Welles  	I think you could sneak in morph targets and just offer an LSL api to its interpolation position initially
  	Martin RJ  	hyperjump is a great method for 'content creation' on my own grid!
  	Siana Gearz  	two are simply not enough in the pelvic area.
  	Techplex Engineer  	I'd like a better prim align tool that doesn't just use square bounding boxes
  	Stickman Ingmann  	What Raz said.
  	  	That's version 1.
  	Raz Welles  	yes
  	Martin RJ  	second Techplex
  	Crash Uladstron  	If you can build a model you can build a morph agreed,you're udnerestimating the amount of people using cloth simulators etc
  	Braydon Randt  	actually .. i want one system ... thats consistant , so i can learn it .. and mvoe on
  	Martin RJ  	and I want a better build-grid
16:04 	Raz Welles  	So it's come to this
  	Toast Bard  	speaking of cake when will we be talking about the alpha glitch with rigged mesh?
  	Asha  	You can make a morph even easier if you use most cloth simulators, especially Marvelous Designer which a number of people are using.
16:05 	Braydon Randt  	like you eh ash *pokes her side*
16:06 	Crash Uladstron  	that is true however many have a very low understanding of anything beyond making a model and copying weights,not that I'm defending them or anything lol
  	Stickman Ingmann  	Alright, I'm heading out. Thanks for the information, Geenz.
  	Geenz Spad  	I think that goes more into the education bit :P
  	  	but anyways
  	  	thanks for coming out to the meeting everyone
  	Asha  	lol
  	Geenz Spad  	we'll be picking up where we left off with next tuesday's meeting