User Experience Interest Group/Transcripts/2010-01-07

== Topic ==
User Experience Interest Group Discussion for January 07, 2010.
Topic: Field trip to OSGrid.
== Summary ==
Our first meeting of the new year. We had a field trip to OSGrid! We met in the Bade Plaza sim to discuss OpenSim and cross-grid usability issues, although we did not stay on topic very much.
== Links ==
* Field trip announcement
== Transcript ==
[14:57]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hi Azwaldo :)
[14:58]	Azwaldo Villota: 	Howdy
[14:58]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	This is interesting....
[14:59]	Azwaldo Villota: 	ha!
[14:59]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	Ha?
[14:59]	Azwaldo Villota: 	clutziness is an Interoperable property, i guess
[14:59]	Azwaldo Villota: 	(can't seem to sit)
[15:00]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehe
[15:01]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	What can I say?
[15:01]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	Next time, choose a place that allows rezzing.
[15:02]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	I even brought my new chair!
[15:03]	Azwaldo Villota: 	Many months since spending significant time in OpenSim
[15:03]	Azwaldo Villota: 	That was in ReactionGrid
[15:06]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	Doesn't look like much people... probably had a hard time finding here?
[15:06]	Armin Weatherwax: 	hi.
[15:06]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hi Armin!
[15:06]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	Hey there!
[15:06]	Armin Weatherwax: 	my clothing is disappeared :(
[15:06]	Azwaldo Villota: 	Howdy Armin
[15:07]	Armin Weatherwax: 	sorry
[15:08]	Armin Weatherwax: 	now its back :)
[15:08]	Armin Weatherwax: 	lol
[15:08]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	Yus.
[15:09]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	All working seats are taken.
[15:09]	Jacek Antonelli: 	These ones seem to work better over here
[15:09]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	All working seats in this ring anyway...
[15:10]	Armin Weatherwax: 	yay.
[15:11]	Armin Weatherwax: 	now figure group invite
[15:11]	Jacek Antonelli tries to send invites for the Imprudence Viewer group 	Jacek Antonelli tries to send invites for the Imprudence Viewer group
[15:13]	Armin Weatherwax: 	i also made a imprudence group, which i now left
[15:13]	Armin Weatherwax: 	it should be avail again now
[15:14]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Group search doesn't work here, I guess
[15:14]	Armin Weatherwax: 	lol
[15:15]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	Well, I guess we won't have much more people coming.
[15:15]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hi Charlette
[15:15]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	Of course I was wrong... ^^
[15:15]	Charlette Proto: 	thanks
[15:15]	Armin Weatherwax: 	Hi :)
[15:16]	Charlette Proto: 	hair didn't rez
[15:16]	Azwaldo Villota: 	Hi Charlette
[15:16]	Charlette Proto: 	sit doesn't work hehe
[15:16]	Armin Weatherwax accepted your inventory offer. 	Armin Weatherwax accepted your inventory offer.
[15:16]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	So everyone's hair are missing?
[15:16]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hehe, haven't found any good hair yet
[15:16]	Charlette Proto: 	yup
[15:17]	Charlette Proto: 	the asset server was restarted 2 days ago
[15:17]	Charlette Proto: 	maybe they wiped something
[15:17]	Armin Weatherwax: 	and no leopard avatar :(
[15:17]	Armin Weatherwax: 	*mews*
[15:18]	Charlette Proto: 	weird but we can chat for what it looks like
[15:18]	Charlette Proto: 	shall we make a group here?
[15:18]	Jacek Antonelli: 	So, how much trouble did you guys have logging in?
[15:19]	Azwaldo Villota: 	no trouble
[15:19]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	Not at all - but I had some difficulties finding my way to the 6th floor, like last time I was in Bade.
[15:19]	Jacek Antonelli: 	The teleporter is a bit strange, but oh well.
[15:19]	Armin Weatherwax: 	no trouble logging in
[15:19]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	(Of course, no trouble != good user experience... I had to erase "Geneko" "Nemeth" from the inputs and type in "Kakurady" "Drakenar")
[15:20]	Charlette Proto: 	using Imprudence and it logs fine every time, except for lag in inventory operations
[15:20]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah, none of the viewers have account management features that I'm happy with, including Imprudence
[15:21]	Charlette Proto: 	my sit looks like I'm retarded - the only problem remainig for me
[15:21]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Try the other chair, Charlette
[15:21]	Armin Weatherwax: 	snow-129 looks like worth having a closer look
[15:21]	Charlette Proto: 	ah and search shaows LL locations like I said in the imp.org forum
[15:21]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Oh, I guess it has the same anim. Oh well.
[15:21]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	Hiro must -really- like this anim.
[15:22]	Charlette Proto: 	I can see my hair now, I changed it and it worked (on my viewer)
[15:22]	Jacek Antonelli: 	The content selection is a bit more limited on OSGrid. And... not quite the same quality.
[15:23]	Charlette Proto: 	animations seem hardest to come by - no AOs to be found
[15:23]	Jacek Antonelli: 	But anyway. Let's start up the discussion.
[15:23]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	I gave some thought to the login screen a while back, but find it kinda hard to come up with something not so cluttery. In a multi-grid environment it should gather 4 pieces of info: grid, login, pass, location.
[15:23]	Charlette Proto: 	can anyone search and get OSG locations?
[15:23]	Azwaldo Villota: 	using Hippo client, have read/heard that inter-grid TP is possible with...Meerkat?
[15:23]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	To make signing as the last avatar easy while changing things possible.... sigh.
[15:24]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yes, Meerkat can do inter-grid TP. Essentially log off from grid A and log in to grid B
[15:24]	Charlette Proto: 	I never got Meerkat to do it myself and Grid manager was very faky so I use IMP
[15:25]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe Jacek - manual TP management
[15:25]	Armin Weatherwax: 	as long as you don't use the pie menu on yourself :P
[15:25]	Charlette Proto: 	so how about search in Imprudence - I'm getting LL content
[15:26]	Charlette Proto: 	doesn't TP when you select LMs it finds
[15:27]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah, search is wrong in Imp.
[15:27]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hi Penny
[15:27]	Charlette Proto: 	understand that but why LL content
[15:27]	Penny Lane: 	Hah, thanks Jacek. I could see you all on the mini-map, but no amount of camera navigation could find you :P
[15:27]	Charlette Proto: 	OK so this is known
[15:27]	Penny Lane: 	<--- Morgaine
[15:27]	Charlette Proto: 	same here Penny
[15:27]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Aha
[15:27]	Charlette Proto: 	haha where is Money Penny
[15:28]	Penny Lane: 	I have a Morg here too, if I could remember the password.
[15:28]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	Someone thought teleporters could replicate stairs completely, but they didn't realize to add a floor number.
[15:28]	Charlette Proto: 	where did you get the vamp hair Penny?
[15:29]	Penny Lane: 	Some freebie store. Lemme see if there's an LM in folder
[15:29]	Penny Lane: 	Nope. But it's almost certainly RetroDan
[15:29]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	I wonder if it's copybotted.
[15:29]	Charlette Proto: 	that would be great, looks to be of OK quality and maybe I could find something too
[15:30]	Penny Lane: 	I have to learn some content creation, and make clothes and skins for Opensim. Without that, this place will be bleak. Everyone should help a little really.
[15:30]	Charlette Proto: 	ah I bet it may be Kaku
[15:30]	Penny Lane: 	Even non-content people like me. Won't be pretty, but will be something
[15:30]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	The creation time is somewhere around 1969... ...that's weird.
[15:30]	Charlette Proto: 	I made my av except for shoes and hair
[15:30]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	Uh... so is my head.
[15:31]	Charlette Proto: 	nice one the begining of UNIX time
[15:31]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	Chairs too. OpenSim probably just never records ctime...
[15:31]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Welcome back Azwaldo
[15:31]	Penny Lane: 	Hi Az!
[15:31]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	I made my AV as well.
[15:31]	Penny Lane: 	Oh, and Happy New Year to everyone :-)))
[15:32]	Charlette Proto: 	good work Kaku
[15:32]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yes, happy new year!
[15:32]	Azwaldo Villota: 	thanks for the TP, Jacek. my avatar seems too short to make it up the steps of the TP pod at landing point
[15:32]	Charlette Proto: 	inventory operations seem rather borked here
[15:33]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Likewise, Azwaldo. The physics engine is a bit different here.
[15:33]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	Charlette: Thanks, but I think I could still use a lot of improvement.
[15:33]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Which operations, Charlette?
[15:34]	Penny Lane: 	I gave up trying to get any viewer on my Windows gaming box to get to OSgrid. It should be identical to the flags used on the Linux viewer, but Windows hates me, and 3 viewers failed. So I replace my SL login with the Windows box, and am here on Imprudence on Linux, which works brilliantly.
[15:34]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Woops, lost her
[15:35]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	!
[15:35]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	Imprudence works fine for me.
[15:36]	Penny Lane: 	It failed to start at all on Windows Vista for me. Something about "bad side-by-side configuration" .... meaningless to me.
[15:36]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	Cryptic error messages... typical.
[15:36]	Penny Lane: 	But I'm not surprised. Windows is nothing but pain for me, always has been.
[15:37]	Penny Lane: 	So I only use Windows for playing Guild Wars, nothing else. I treat it as a games console, and it works like that.
[15:37]	Charlette Proto shouts: TP please 	Charlette Proto shouts: TP please
[15:37]	Kakurady Drakenar likes Windows but is currently running Ubuntu, up 2 days, 17:53 	Kakurady Drakenar likes Windows but is currently running Ubuntu, up 2 days, 17:53
[15:37]	Penny Lane: 	Welcome back, Charlette :-)
[15:37]	Penny Lane makes a LM here 	Penny Lane makes a LM here
[15:37]	Charlette Proto: 	thanks Az
[15:38]	Jacek Antonelli created a landmark at La Plaza Bade - Landing Zone (OS, Bade Plaza (137, 136, 162) 	Jacek Antonelli created a landmark at La Plaza Bade - Landing Zone (OS, Bade Plaza (137, 136, 162)
[15:38]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	I thought all the chairs here are ... working somewhat?!
[15:38]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	How did that happen lol
[15:38]	Charlette Proto: 	I meant wearing and detaching - that sort of thing Jacek
[15:38]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I think the chair lost its sit target because it still thinks Charlette is sitting there.
[15:39]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	Easily griefed chairs.
[15:39]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	Sigh.
[15:39]	Jacek Antonelli: 	So, let's talk about some of the user experience issues with OpenSim and cross-grid stuff.
[15:40]	Penny Lane: 	I liked your "field trip" announcement, Jacek. We could arrange field trips to lots of other grids too :-)
[15:40]	Jacek Antonelli: 	We've already mentioned the need for viewers to connect to the correct services, like search, currency buying, etc.
[15:40]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	Probably the best if we can get some actual users of OpenSim...
[15:40]	Penny Lane: 	And within OSgrid, to many different places of course
[15:40]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	Maybe next time in a better place.
[15:41]	Penny Lane: 	Yes! Jacek, make another UXIG group here, it should be under your name to match in SL or I'd do it.
[15:41]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	There has been talks on SLDev about how to make Snowglobe's maps work in OSGrid too.
[15:42]	Azwaldo Villota: 	I spent some time in ReactionGrid, many months ago. Helped with orientation for a couple of classes of Boston High School students. No scripts were needed, they were assigned the building of various body parts. They had not been in SL, so it was all new, all good.
[15:43]	Penny Lane: 	ReactionGrid is the pure Microsoft one, right?
[15:43]	Charlette Proto shouts: OMG!!! 	Charlette Proto shouts: OMG!!!
[15:43]	Azwaldo Villota: 	Since then, I have made occasional visits to test scripts, see how far along the OS development is coming along
[15:43]	Simulator Version shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Dev) 9c4e6f0 2009-12-31 06:41:10 +0000 (Unix/Mono) 	Simulator Version shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Dev) 9c4e6f0 2009-12-31 06:41:10 +0000 (Unix/Mono)
[15:43]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Having trouble, Charlette?
[15:44]	Charlette Proto: 	sorry Imp crashed when I took a snapshot
[15:44]	Penny Lane tries snapshot 	Penny Lane tries snapshot
[15:44]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	That is rather long for a group title... ^^
[15:44]	Charlette Proto: 	I'll leave my vanity till later
[15:44]	Azwaldo Villota: 	Microsoft, yes; "pure" I do not know...the grid's founders are all about Microsoft, i think
[15:45]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Same group title as in SL
[15:45]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	Azwaldo: How so?
[15:45]	Charlette Proto: 	I can't see your voice dots, just my own
[15:45]	Penny Lane: 	Shapshot worked for me. Really, I'm finding Imprudence on Linux to be the most stable viewer of all time, anywhere, on any grid. /me loves stability!
[15:45]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	I don't think people woul dbother setting up vivox accounts here.
[15:46]	Charlette Proto: 	haha same here stability=1 FPS=2 extra features=?
[15:46]	Kakurady Drakenar makes note to self to check if Imp runs into deadlocks under linux like Snowglobe does	Kakurady Drakenar makes note to self to check if Imp runs into deadlocks under linux like Snowglobe does
[15:47]	Penny Lane: 	The newest Imprudence is fast too though, the days of it being 2nd to Snowglobe are gone. And Snowglobe never stays up for more than a few minutes here for me.
[15:47]	Charlette Proto: 	mine uses Open Source: libcurl Version: libcurl/7.16.4 OpenSSL/0.9.7c zlib/1.2.3
??? J2C Decoder Version: OpenJPEG: 1.3.0, Runtime: 1.3.0
??? Audio Driver Version: OpenAL, version 1.1 ALSOFT 1.6.372 / OpenAL Community / OpenAL Soft: DirectSound Software
??? GStreamer Version: 0.10.20.1
[15:47]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	There is a cyclic slowdown with any viewer... not sure where that is from....
[15:48]	Penny Lane: 	Very important to poke the two KDU files into Imprudence on Linux though, owing to the memory leak with OpenJPEG.
[15:48]	Charlette Proto: 	agree about speed Penny, and the diff isn't great either
[15:48]	Charlette Proto: 	ah maybe insisting on working with OS dlls in Imp makes me slower too
[15:49]	Armin Weatherwax: 	Penny, where do I get the kdu files for 64bit?
[15:49]	Penny Lane: 	The Love and Peace group whose tag I'm wearing seems to be about dancing btw, so if you want some socializing here, join them :-)
[15:49]	Azwaldo Villota: 	Kakurady: saw your question...looking fer somethin
[15:49]	Kakurady Drakenar wonders if the libs are built with optimization 	Kakurady Drakenar wonders if the libs are built with optimization
[15:50]	Charlette Proto: 	ah can i join the UXIG group here?
[15:50]	Penny Lane: 	Jacek, I clicked too quickly and didn't read --- what group was that invite for?
[15:50]	Penny Lane: 	Oh, Imprudence Viewer --- cool!
[15:50]	Penny Lane: 	Tnx :-)
[15:52]	Charlette Proto: 	are groups limited to 25 here too, or is it just the Imp UI
[15:52]	Penny Lane: 	I notice there's nobody listed in the UXIG listener group, which probably explains why IM is down. That might be a Bade Plaza problem --- group chat works in Wright Plaza.
[15:53]	Charlette Proto: 	this sim is much worse than ones I've seen before
[15:53]	Penny Lane: 	We can try talking in group after the meeting
[15:53]	Charlette Proto: 	sim FPS 57 but feels like crap
[15:53]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	I prefer IRC.
[15:53]	Azwaldo Villota: 	Kakurady: the admin site for a ReactionGrid landowner is a sitefinity interface , ASP.NET
[15:54]	Penny Lane: 	I prefer Jabber
[15:54]	Penny Lane: 	IRC is full of kiddies and griefers
[15:54]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	I don't prefer Jabber, mostly because I don't have anyone to talk to on Jabber.
[15:54]	Armin Weatherwax: 	jabber is good
[15:55]	Armin Weatherwax: 	irc - dunno - last time i used irc is over 10 ys ago
[15:55]	Armin Weatherwax: 	rather12
[15:55]	Charlette Proto: 	PNs use IRC
[15:55]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	I do microblog through Jabber though.
[15:55]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	http://identi.ca/kakurady
[15:55]	Penny Lane: 	One thing we can do with Opensim groups that LL won't do is give group a comms server field, which the group owner can set up. It should have fields for native, IRC, and Jabber servers + rooms/channels.
[15:56]	Penny Lane: 	Ie. owner of grou determines which system is used for group chat.
[15:56]	Penny Lane: 	group*
[15:57]	Penny Lane: 	Have you noticed how much massively faster vicinity chat is here compared to SL? It's always instantly back.
[15:57]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	It's not instantly for you?
[15:57]	Penny Lane: 	How SL can make text chat slow is beyond me.
[15:57]	Penny Lane: 	Kaku: it's often lagged
[15:58]	Jacek Antonelli: 	SL chat works fine for me most of the time. Although Hippotropolis is very laggy in general, I've found.
[15:58]	Charlette Proto: 	M Linden has to read it all and he isn't a fast reader
[15:58]	Penny Lane: 	lol
[15:58]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hah
[15:58]	Charlette Proto: 	see lindens read it first
[15:58]	Azwaldo Villota: 	i must away
[15:58]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Take care Azwaldo
[15:59]	Azwaldo Villota: 	see y'all next week
[15:59]	Charlette Proto: 	byee az
[15:59]	Penny Lane: 	Oh! Imprudence t-shirt! I'd like one!
[15:59]	Penny Lane: 	Cyu Az!
[15:59]	Armin Weatherwax: 	bye Azwaldo
[15:59]	Penny Lane accepted your inventory offer. 	Penny Lane accepted your inventory offer.
[15:59]	Penny Lane: 	Thanks Jacek!
[15:59]	Charlette Proto: 	the wear/detach is still borked for me
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Anyone else want one?
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Or an invite to the Imprudence Viewer group?
[16:00]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	No thanks.
[16:00]	Charlette Proto: 	and I never got the group invite
[16:00]	Armin Weatherwax: 	hehe ... i got 3
[16:00]	Charlette Proto: 	ah lucky Armin
[16:00]	Charlette Proto: 	thanks
[16:01]	Charlette Proto: 	I got 2 now
[16:03]	Charlette Proto: 	OMG the group title
[16:04]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Drat, it won't let me use a ❤ in a group title.
[16:04]	Penny Lane: 	Add a few roles for different tags, please, Jacek ... might as well please everyone :-)
[16:05]	Penny Lane: 	Or make an officer for such menial admin :P
[16:06]	Charlette Proto: 	group chat is very laggy, but the local works OK
[16:07]	Charlette Proto: 	thanks jacek, that tag is much better
[16:07]	Armin Weatherwax relogs in a minute ... fresh client just ended compiling 	Armin Weatherwax relogs in a minute ... fresh client just ended compiling
[16:07]	Penny Lane: 	I like the long tag, makes the point that we're not restricted by LL limits here :-)
[16:08]	Penny Lane: 	Is it lack of Unicode, the problem with spekial symbols?
[16:08]	Charlette Proto: 	haha imagine tag griefers
[16:08]	Charlette Proto: 	half the screen would be covered with glyphs
[16:08]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	They probably sanity checked it so that only ASCII is allowed.
[16:09]	Charlette Proto: 	actually SL is known for fail logging people with international characters in group titles
[16:09]	Penny Lane: 	Freedom doesn't come free. Yes, griefing wll be a cost of that freedom, but I prefer being griefed to living in a nice safe prison.
[16:09]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	Penny: Chinese people will tell you otherwise.
[16:09]	Kakurady Drakenar: 	Stability is important.
[16:10]	Charlette Proto: 	how about being cloned as a form of griefing Penny
[16:10]	Penny Lane: 	Just like freedom of expression means that you hear crap you would rather not. But we can choose to ignore it, and improve clients to ignore it better and automatically.
[16:10]	Charlette Proto: 	happens to me quite a bit and I haven't experienced anything quite so disturbing
[16:11]	Penny Lane: 	Charlette: I know you have a thing about being cloned, but you're out of step with the technology. Cloning is part of the natural order of things in a world that works by sending all assets to everyone. Your life will be a misery until you come to terms with that.
[16:12]	Charlette Proto: 	yeah like someone take your identity and all the hard work, maybe that is freedom too - free from the sense of attachment and motivation to start again HAHA
[16:12]	Penny Lane: 	Clone me any time. Hey, you may even improve on me :-))
[16:12]	Charlette Proto: 	so unique identity is meaningless to you
[16:13]	Penny Lane: 	They can't steal your identity
[16:13]	Charlette Proto: 	well I identify with being recognised just like in RL
[16:14]	Penny Lane: 	"Taking your hard work" implies that you don't understand that digital data is inherently copiable. How you look is not your identity.
[16:14]	Penny Lane: 	It will be a source of misery if you t
[16:15]	Charlette Proto: 	heard it too many times Penny - all bull, the components of my appearance don't need to be seen by anyone but those who see me naked
[16:15]	Penny Lane: 	It will be a source of misery if you truly feel hard done by when people use the assets that you accept being sent to the world.
[16:15]	Charlette Proto: 	total crap, just sloppy code
[16:15]	Penny Lane: 	Nope, it's the way the platform is designed.
[16:15]	Charlette Proto: 	yeah sloppy
[16:16]	Charlette Proto: 	and it is baked into one, but the sloppy code allows source layers to be copied - super lame
[16:16]	Penny Lane: 	For everyone to see you, your assets are sent to everyone for them to render. No, it's not sloppy coding --- it's THE DESIGN.
[16:16]	Charlette Proto: 	read above
[16:16]	Penny Lane: 	By all means change the design. Opensim code is open. But good luck changing the design of SL.
[16:17]	Armin Weatherwax reads above:it's THE DESIGN. 	Armin Weatherwax reads above:it's THE DESIGN.
[16:18]	Armin Weatherwax: 	but its the design of how computers work ... copy the content from a to b
[16:18]	Armin Weatherwax: 	thats not SL
[16:18]	Armin Weatherwax: 	thats turing
[16:18]	Penny Lane: 	Whether individual layers are sent or bakes are sent, it will make no difference on cloning --- anyone who wants to will still be able to clone you, because the appearance is still sent to them. You need to calm down and accept it. (Or change the code, in Opensim)
[16:19]	Charlette Proto: 	total crap Armin - there is no need to expose individual layers on the av since the 3 parts are baked into a composite
[16:19]	Penny Lane: 	Personally I prefer to relax, and say "Clone away!" :-)
[16:19]	Jacek Antonelli: 	There is no need to expose the layers, and they are changing the design so that it won't anymore.
[16:19]	Penny Lane: 	Jacek: that doesn't help Charlette --- she'll still be cloned
[16:20]	Jacek Antonelli: 	But the old design was that the layers are exposed. The code just implements part of that design.
[16:20]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Although I won't say that the code isn't sloppy. Judging by the rest of the code, it probably *is* sloppy.
[16:21]	Charlette Proto: 	all this data comunism is phoney, look at Chinese once they thought copyright was crap now they make money from DVD and CD replication for major publishers
[16:21]	Penny Lane: 	It's built into the core concept of the platform (and this includes the new VWRAP stuff too) --- assets are sent to clients for local rendering. That means they can be cloned, even if they're just baked composites, and so user appearance can be cloned too.
[16:21]	Armin Weatherwax: 	Charlette ... then Alan Turing designed crap ... I can live with that.
[16:22]	Penny Lane: 	Charlette: McCarthy is rather old hat you know, you're several decades out of step with the "communism" crap.
[16:22]	Penny Lane: 	I guess data bits must be "communist", because everyone can make copies. /sigh
[16:22]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Alright, I'm going to stop the discussion here, because we're over time, off topic, and heated
[16:23]	Penny Lane: 	Jacek: it's heated, but it's in a good cause, or else Charlette will be miserable all her life.
[16:23]	Jacek Antonelli: 	We'll be back at our usual spot next week, although we might have more field trips to OSGrid in the future
[16:23]	Armin Weatherwax: 	lol
[16:23]	Penny Lane: 	Cool!
[16:23]	Armin Weatherwax: 	yay, that's great
[16:23]	Jacek Antonelli: 	You can carry on with the discussion, but I'm gonna go get some dinner. Take care all, see you next week
[16:23]	Penny Lane: 	Thanks for organizing Jacek, tc :-)