Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.05.21

Simulator_User_Group
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== List of Speakers ==
Adamburp Adamczyk 	AldonFairfield 	Andrew Linden
avantgarde Frequency	Baker Linden 	Barbie Alchemi
Daemonika Nightfire 	Dottie Iceberg 	Duckie Dickins
Jolie Bernitz 	Jonathan Yap 	Jonvic Toshi
joy Pinklady 	Kallista Destiny	Kelly Linden
Kitto Flora 	Levio Serenity 	Lexbot Sinister
Lucia Nightfire 	magnus String 	MartinRJ
Mireille Jenvieve 	Nalates Urriah 	Nicholas Melchior
Purdy Forcella 	Qie Niangao 	reddot99 Republic
Rex Cronon 	Shrike Rossini 	Simon Linden
Sinful Xubersnak 	Talarus Luan 	Toysoldier Thor
Whirly Fizzle 	 	
== Transcript ==
[12:05] Lucia Nightfire: wouldn't be a server dev meeting without griefing coming up in the chat
[12:05] Toysoldier Thor: hey andrew
[12:05] Simon Linden: That's it for release news ... Andrew, do you have anything?
[12:05] Qie Niangao: (just in passing: this sim has over 30 people on it at the moment, and yet 10msec/frame Spare Time.)
[12:06] Sinful Xubersnak: i think you have a lot of venue owners here...particularly music venues. we would like to have a chance to get some questions answered at some point
[12:06] Dottie Iceberg: Simon may we discuss the griefer issues after the Linden news is put out?
[12:06] Toysoldier Thor: maybe we can get this sim to 50 - 70 and watch how the sim starts booting blocks of us off
[12:06] Andrew Linden: Not much... we're trying to get my project up on RC. It might make it but we're doing some last minute testing which will sway the decision.
[12:07] Simon Linden: ok, one second ... we'll throw the table open for topics after I make sure we've got all news and announcments taken care of
[12:07] Sinful Xubersnak: ty simon
[12:07] Toysoldier Thor: kk
[12:07] Rex Cronon: hello andrew
[12:07] Andrew Linden: I do have a little news about the meeroo animation bug... I wan't able to fix it after all...
[12:07] Whirly Fizzle: eeeeep
[12:07] Andrew Linden: but I did reduce it or eliminate it for meeroos that are nearby (closer than 10m)
[12:07] Levio Serenity: nuuuu : (
[12:08] Andrew Linden: turns out the problem wasn't what I thought it was
[12:08] Lucia Nightfire: no off screen meeroo mating sequence allowed
[12:08] Whirly Fizzle: The Roo scripter is here actually :P
[12:08] Andrew Linden: I tested meeroo and noticed that the meeroo sometimes don't update all of their animation state at once
[12:08] Simon Linden: 10m helps ... farther than that they'll be drawn pretty small
[12:08] Andrew Linden: so you get a slightly disconnected meeroo
[12:09] Andrew Linden: however, that problem is caused mostly by slow scripts, low bandwidth connection, or general lag
[12:09] Andrew Linden: none of which is new
[12:09] Levio Serenity: you mean sometimes the llSPPF() doesnt execute every command before the time slice is over and drops some?
[12:09] Andrew Linden: but the new problem was that the meeroo walk animation appeared to be busted
[12:09] Andrew Linden: so when you turn around the meeroo walk forward... but without their characteristic little hop
[12:10] Andrew Linden: so it looks like the animation itself isn't working
[12:10] Andrew Linden: anyway, in my new project the meeroo will update correctly if they are nearby, where you can actually see the hop
[12:10] Nalates Urriah: So... is this fixable in the Lab's side or not?
[12:11] Andrew Linden: I will revisit the bug after this bit of code goes out.
[12:11] Andrew Linden: I'll be curious to hear how bad it is after this partial fix.
[12:11] Qie Niangao: Tiger, you think llSPPF() drops some simside? not just fails to update to viewer?
[12:12] Andrew Linden: one other bit of news...
[12:12] Levio Serenity: oh i know it does, but its pretty rare. it will spit an error on the debug channel and players occasionally report it
[12:12] Andrew Linden: we found and fixed the crash bug in the viewer project that goes with some recent interestlist changes
[12:12] Whirly Fizzle: OOh yay
[12:12] Andrew Linden: so I'm trying to get it out into some public repo
[12:13] Whirly Fizzle: Wonderful! Thank you
[12:13] Andrew Linden: there is some new process that we need to follow that Oz just sent out
[12:13] Simon Linden: Andrew - let's talk later. We have some viewer bug fixes we're releasing as well and maybe those should just go together
[12:13] Andrew Linden: so I'm going to try to make sure we cross our t's and dot our i's so that we can make the work public
[12:13] Andrew Linden: that's all the news I've got.
[12:14] joy Pinklady: We get abused nearly everyday by a man and woman who have several alts. We belong to many poetry groups that are griefed by these people nearly everyday. I have now found out they live at a place called 'Perfectbum'(Stargazer fields) I hope this will help you. These are some of their alts. Plsssssssssssss help us, Im begging you, tku for your kind help.
5kelly(Iloveads) - Admuhral - Adsnym - Notadmiral - Dollymoomin - Admiral - Spakker
Admiral - Notadmiral - hadmiral - hurratorpedo - admiralpoop - poetrylover69 resident
choufleurs resident - jeremyiorns - throatfck
[12:14] Lucia Nightfire: lol
[12:14] Whirly Fizzle: Thanks very much Andrew & Simon
[12:14] Baker Linden: For my news: I'm making really great progress on fixing leading/trailing spaces in display names -- fixing up some unit tests and I have a couple more little issues related to it, but overall it should be ready for QA this week. After that, I'll be finishing up the last couple issues I've assigned to myself concerning name searching and proper removal of muted agents / objects in mute lists.
[12:15] Barbie Alchemi: they have hundreds of alts and create new ones quicker than we can ban them
[12:15] Lucia Nightfire: and then back to group na list work, huh, Baker?
[12:15] Simon Linden: One sec, we'll get to griefing soon....
[12:15] Lucia Nightfire: *ban
[12:15] Barbie Alchemi: I am the owner of the Creations for Parkinson's sim and they have abused members at our Parkinson's support group meetins
[12:15] Baker Linden: After working on stripping whitespace from display names, I'm unsure how useful it'll be -- anyone that wants to game the system will just append a bunch of other characters that appear before letters... But at least whitespace will be stripped
[12:15] Barbie Alchemi: this is illegal, how can we be protected?
[12:15] Whirly Fizzle: Yay baker! Can someone give this man a cookie? <3
[12:16] joy Pinklady: yes the same two people this weeknew alts:- amdirr, spazmiral, kurly wurley and capaill
[12:16] Simon Linden: I'm not sure he has them enable
[12:16] Simon Linden: d
[12:16] Whirly Fizzle: ROFL
[12:16] Baker Linden: but then yes, Lucia, I'll be working on group bans :)
[12:16] Barbie Alchemi: they are the same two that do more griefing than all others combined
[12:16] Whirly Fizzle: Whoohoooooooo
[12:16] Barbie Alchemi: they live in the UK
[12:16] joy Pinklady: yes
[12:16] Duckie Dickins: It's times like these I miss the G Team. :D
[12:16] Lexbot Sinister: Can you guys please wait til the Lindens are done?
[12:16] Simon Linden: Barbie - please hang on
[12:17] Barbie Alchemi: I am sorry, my first time here
[12:17] Lucia Nightfire: great, I still need to give you that list of caveats too
[12:17] Talarus Luan: Just report them and ban them. They will eventually get bored, especially if you don't respond to them.
[12:17] joy Pinklady: these ones dont
[12:17] joy Pinklady: ever
[12:17] Barbie Alchemi: OMG not these two! they have been banned hundreds of times
[12:17] Shrike Rossini: It's not that sime Talarus, please don't play us for fools, let's see what Simon Linden has to say when he's ready
[12:18] Simon Linden: ok ... so this is not the first time dealing with griefers has come up here. There are a few things that I'll mention that will hopefully make this a productive conversation
[12:20] Simon Linden: First, the Lindens here are developers, and we mostly work on the server. We're not part of support or the governance groups that actually deal with abuse reports and such. We do, however, look at and try to have technical solutions to problems like this
[12:21] Simon Linden: So we can't help you with specific cases like this ... it's unfortunate, but really the best thing to do is keep kicking, banning and reporting individuals
[12:21] Duckie Dickins: I don't think it's the actual topic of griefing that is at the heart of the issue....just that these meetings are the only place you can actually get the attention of an actual linden...just that in most case you're contacting the wrong linden at these meetings. :)
[12:21] Sinful Xubersnak: Simon, one of the problems we have run into is that apparently no one we are able to actually speak to is a part of the group that looks at those abuse reports. We get no response at all
[12:21] Barbie Alchemi: these two have illegal viewers and they are able to move my things on the sim
[12:21] AldonFairfield: What specific technical solutions would you suggest to we victimized citizens and owner...
[12:21] Jonvic Toshi: and I think Simon we are looking exactly for that, some technical solutions to help...it is the developers that can do this...maybe....
[12:21] Talarus Luan: Now, that is something that can be looked at here..
[12:21] Simon Linden: It may be difficult to meet Lindens in-world, but reports are looked at
[12:21] Sinful Xubersnak: and yet the same few individuals will target a venue or a performer and crash the sims repeatedly
[12:22] Sinful Xubersnak: and have been doing so for years
[12:22] Barbie Alchemi: they are tenacious and NOTHING stops these two
[12:22] Whirly Fizzle: Errr..that shouldn't be possible o.O You don't have your objects set to share with group or anything?
[12:22] Andrew Linden: I'm interested in hearing what sort of grief modes are being used.
[12:22] Talarus Luan: illegal viewers bypassing sim security checks
[12:22] Barbie Alchemi: NO!
[12:22] Kitto Flora: Yes - Governance has no public meeting, and does not communicate with the Residence, therefore meetings like this are the De Facto representation of such issues to the Residents.
[12:22] Andrew Linden: Barbie says they can move things around.
[12:22] Lucia Nightfire: flood insurance, got it?
[12:22] Sinful Xubersnak: no whirly and we no it shouldnt be possible but it is
[12:22] Sinful Xubersnak: know*
[12:22] Sinful Xubersnak: you can even turn off scripts as well and they can do things they shouldnt be able to
[12:22] Simon Linden: ok, so about the most I can to with that info is to pass along the message that we have unhappy customers who have to deal with chronic griefers. That won't be news to anyone, but I can tell managers and execs and pass along that info
[12:23] Shrike Rossini: Today they were able to clear a sim when we host a venue of all prims entirely within seconds of being on the sim, that shouldn't be possible!
[12:23] Barbie Alchemi: yes! they have done that on my sim and also on Virtual Ability and both ours sims are dedicated to helping people with disabilities
[12:23] Nicholas Melchior: they have tools that can get around most region controls, yes
[12:23] Whirly Fizzle: They mass retirned everything?
[12:23] Sinful Xubersnak: Simon who do we need to speak to to get something other than passed along
[12:23] Rex Cronon: if u guys tell the lindens what they to to grief u, maybe the can find some solutions to at least some of the things. like they could stop them from moving your things, no matter what viewer they r using
[12:23] Sinful Xubersnak: we have venues that close down, performers that quit and yet nothing changes
[12:24] Barbie Alchemi: we tell them over and over and over and nothing happens
[12:24] AldonFairfield: Any inworld devices we can purchase from Linden Labs for best griefer ejection defence?
[12:24] Simon Linden: Now, there's also a big issue central to SL ... you are talking about imposing restrictions on a system (SL) that is designed to be open. You know the deal: anyone can make an account
[12:24] Sinful Xubersnak: we do rex we all file report after report after report
[12:24] Shrike Rossini: not returned ... they were gone .. LL rolled back the sim to recover
[12:24] Kallista Destiny: The problem is that there is no meaningful feedback for abuse reports. The formletter you get tells you nothing. Having the old police blotter was at least informative.
[12:24] Rex Cronon: u need a blog/site
[12:24] AldonFairfield: What is BEST reporting/security connectivity TO Linden Labs? Name please...
[12:24] Kallista Destiny: AR
[12:24] Barbie Alchemi: it is the same two that do the most damage, we all know who they are
[12:24] Sinful Xubersnak: all of this effects the economy of sl as well
[12:24] Whirly Fizzle: So it was as if they had picked up your objects without rights?
[12:25] Barbie Alchemi: yes!
[12:25] MartinRJ: when someone did something that he shouldn't be able to, you should promptly report a sec-issue at jira.secondlife.com including the region name. If you do that on the same day, someone will be able to look at the server logs, afaik
[12:25] Sinful Xubersnak: yes whirly
[12:25] Nicholas Melchior: from a technical standpoint, I woudl recommend reviewing marketplace listings under weapons and looking at some of the capabilities they have
[12:25] Kitto Flora: One gets the impression that Governance is run by one Linden who turns up for work maybe once every 6 months.
[12:25] Simon Linden: So if your groups, land, etc are open, anyone can return. If you want to change, that, then the land needs to be locked down and restricted more. That's ugly when you are trying to be an outreach or get more customers, like newbies
[12:25] AldonFairfield: Anything?
[12:25] Jonvic Toshi: yes we understand Simon, no easy fix I know, but if there is anything at the sever level that can help maybe it can be considered....I know this is not a new issue
[12:25] Nalates Urriah: Simon & Andrew, can you arrange to be at an event that is going to be griefed to see what is happening, how it is being done? Then may be figure out some new fixes?
[12:25] Sinful Xubersnak: simon we understand and all use the usual lines of defense
[12:26] Lucia Nightfire: theres an alleged exploit around full sim prim return with certain spam object, but I can't say the name here
[12:26] Shrike Rossini: Yes Whirly everything on a sim which is split into many parcels and many object owners!
[12:26] Simon Linden: oh, I've been at enough, Nal. My alt goes to plenty of music events
[12:26] Andrew Linden: That may be possible Nalates.
[12:26] Barbie Alchemi: we are having a one year anniversary event this Sat 1-5, can a Linden be there to protect us?
[12:26] Sinful Xubersnak: i even had a linden show up from a live chat on the sim once while we were being griefed and they still took it down
[12:26] Talarus Luan: I think that the default expectation is that the land is locked down, since that is the default setting anyway.
[12:26] Toysoldier Thor: yes what Nal says..... the Lindens need to witness these griefs and see how they are allowed to violate protections
[12:26] Lucia Nightfire: I've never been able to get it to work though, but other claimed ot have
[12:26] Purdy Forcella: Most of griefers are newbies..because there allowed to make more and more avi's
[12:26] Kitto Flora: And WENGEN was just CRASHED .. griefers alive and well
[12:26] Sinful Xubersnak: sometimes it is easy for us to spot the names but not always
[12:26] Barbie Alchemi: they have illegal viewers that can get thru anything
[12:26] Whirly Fizzle: Is that the one there was the SLU thread about Lucia? Where people were having all objects returned off their parcels?
[12:27] Simon Linden: How much bad behavior is technical (object, particles, sounds, etc) vs just bad behavior (obnoxious chat, movement, etc?)
[12:27] Sinful Xubersnak: what we are complaining about is technical simon
[12:27] Sinful Xubersnak: the obnoxious griefers we can handle
[12:27] AldonFairfield: Would appreciate a "short list" of named anti-griefer devices now available....anything that actually works?
[12:27] Lucia Nightfire: yes, Whirls
[12:27] Whirly Fizzle: Oh, there was another thread too about a problem on mainland where people were able to move other peoples objects about when they shouldn't have been able to
[12:27] Sinful Xubersnak: but someone crashing your sim repeatedly over the course of an hour we cant
[12:27] avantgarde Frequency: they can take a sim down in a nanosecond and erase it from the grid for hours Simon
[12:28] Purdy Forcella: objects...huge boxes bouncing about....they can also stop you using your own land controls....to stop you banning on your own sim
[12:28] Barbie Alchemi: they completely cripple us from being able to help people with parkinson's or raise money for the Michael J Fox Foundation
[12:28] Qie Niangao: Is there anything helpful to be learned if a report of this sim-clearing event were made within minutes of its occurrence? (and the griefer-caused sim-crashes, too)
[12:28] Jonvic Toshi: in most cases Simon they try and crash the sim by running heavy scripted objects (they wear I guess)
[12:28] Nicholas Melchior: thw vast majority is technical. Knocking everyone on a sim offline, blasting your graphics card into slag, spamming invisible chat at a rate that takes the region offline
[12:28] Lucia Nightfire: that particular object ahs been used in the sandboxes I admin before many times and it hasn't succeeded in returnign anything, I still think the exploit involves if it was rezzed by a land owner though
[12:28] Nicholas Melchior: and with many of the newer griefer tools they buy on marketplace, the culprit cannot be identified
[12:28] Shrike Rossini: I've yet to report it on SLU, might do that Whirly
[12:28] avantgarde Frequency: and we have absolutely no defense
[12:29] Andrew Linden: "spamming invisible chat"... that means chatting on channels other than 0?
[12:29] Nicholas Melchior: which makes ARs and ban lists meaningless
[12:29] Sinful Xubersnak: i dont know what they use but turning off object rezzing and scriipts does not solve it
[12:29] Adamburp Adamczyk: don;t waste your time trying to AR stuff on marketplace
[12:29] Adamburp Adamczyk: waste of ruddy time
[12:29] Adamburp Adamczyk: i tried
[12:29] Sinful Xubersnak: i dont think what they use is on mp
[12:29] Toysoldier Thor: ok maybe this is more related to why i am here as I was thinking the past 2-3 weeks of sim instability at many large venue events was due to the new sim / viewer codwe
[12:29] Adamburp Adamczyk: no offence to th dudes here, but support aren't exactly helpful at the best of times (scouts that is)
[12:29] Barbie Alchemi: we truly need your protection from these two individuals
[12:30] joy Pinklady: absolutely
[12:30] Simon Linden: We definitely want to see bug reports about events where someone manages to bring a region down.
[12:30] Barbie Alchemi: we need your help
[12:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[12:30] magnus String: i think one main issue is that these tools are too available for all to use . especially on MP
[12:30] Qie Niangao: Sin X : just to be sure: Not helped by turning off scripts on the land, or on the region?
[12:30] joy Pinklady: we are begging for your help
[12:30] avantgarde Frequency: direct question... is it possible for LL to ban a user's MAC address?
[12:30] Andrew Linden: MP = ?
[12:30] Nicholas Melchior: they bring regions down multiple times daily
[12:30] Barbie Alchemi: I am in SL trying to help people with Parkinson's and they are trying to hurt us
[12:30] magnus String: Marketplace
[12:30] Purdy Forcella: Wea ll put in abuse reports...nothing is done to help us venue owners...a lot are going out of business because of constant streams of griefing
[12:30] Whirly Fizzle: MP = marketplace
[12:30] Andrew Linden: ok thanks
[12:30] Shrike Rossini: Simon, please provide me with a fall .. anything I can complete technical and will happily do so
[12:30] Lucia Nightfire: there are worse tools availabel for dl, the viewers themself can crash sims withotu scripts or obejcts
[12:30] Simon Linden: BARRY - not that I know of.
[12:31] Talarus Luan: Barry: not in a way that is useful against technically-savvy griefers
[12:31] Rex Cronon: i think the worse are the "custom" viewers not the scripted hud attacks
[12:31] Shrike Rossini: *form even
[12:31] Andrew Linden: we don't ban MAC addresses, they are too easy to spoof
[12:31] Sinful Xubersnak: the region
[12:31] Simon Linden: That's easily spoofed, I believe
[12:31] Whirly Fizzle: The griffer viewers have a drop down on the login screen to spoof Mac heh
[12:31] Andrew Linden: IP addresses are harder to spoof, at least for high bandwidth connections
[12:31] Whirly Fizzle: They can bypass a Mac ba in a a second >.<
[12:31] Kallista Destiny: Proxy
[12:31] Whirly Fizzle: *ban
[12:31] Qie Niangao: Sin X: so, again making sure: *no* scripts run on the region, not owners, nothing (because they're turned off with estate tools)?
[12:31] AldonFairfield: Are Second Life IP addresses invulnerable to Lindens' permanent bans....after 99 violations? Tell me no...
[12:31] Jonvic Toshi: I'll try to capture as much debug data as I can Simon next time I see a sim taken down and pass it on, but often you have seconds before the sim crashes
[12:31] Talarus Luan: Yeah, IP blocks are pretty useless, too
[12:32] Nicholas Melchior: most pf the tools and weapons they use are readily available to anyone. I would strongly recommend examining those, and their capabilities to get an idea of what we are deasling with from a technical angle
[12:32] Sinful Xubersnak: i am the owner qie
[12:32] avantgarde Frequency: maybe there's not enough common sense security built into the system...
[12:32] Toysoldier Thor: what we need simon and andrew is for someone at LL with some power to take the griefing issue serious and have LL learn what these greifers are actually doing and taking action. The fact that LL engineers do not know some of their tricks is concerning
[12:32] Qie Niangao: Sin, I understand. I'm just making sure it's a full-on estate-level script shutdown for the region. In that case, yeah, there's no script involved.
[12:32] Kallista Destiny: I have a real problem with the term common sense..
[12:32] reddot99 Republic: There's no such thing as common sense security with computers
[12:33] Sinful Xubersnak: yes qie i shut them down for the entire region as the owner
[12:33] Shrike Rossini: Agreed Toy
[12:33] Whirly Fizzle: If someone crashes your region, you should file a JIRA at https://jira.secondlife.com/secure/Dashboard.jspa with exact time the event happened, region name, and BEFORE you relog after you went down with the region, zup up your viewer logs folder and attach that to the JIRA issue using More Actions -> Attach files.
[12:33] Sinful Xubersnak: i did whirly
[12:33] Talarus Luan: Well, you can get around no-script with scripts; it just limits the griefing modes a bit.
[12:33] Whirly Fizzle: *zip
[12:33] Sinful Xubersnak: and i got into live chat tech support as well
[12:33] Jonvic Toshi: This is perhaps unfair on you Simon and Andrew, this is not your area...but maybe you can help us find a way to improve matters
[12:33] Toysoldier Thor: LL should strike up a SL GRIEFER TASK FORCE to learn and come up with actions
[12:33] avantgarde Frequency: why would anyone need to put 60,000 scripts into an object? common sense suggests there is no legit need
[12:33] Rex Cronon: there is a type of n-scripting allowed that lindens use at sandbox weapons testing that stop all the scripts, maybe that would be useful for u guys
[12:34] Qie Niangao: Thanks Sin. That's important. It pretyt much means it's a rogue viewer, nothing one can buy on MP (for that case anyway)
[12:34] reddot99 Republic: Rex, that's estate script disable,
[12:34] avantgarde Frequency: yet it appears that that's what they're doing
[12:34] Toysoldier Thor: I am need to run - windows installers here but i am going to post this then let others chat....
[12:34] Lucia Nightfire: Rex, those script halt scripts do mroe harm than good
[12:34] Sinful Xubersnak: i believe that is probably so qie
[12:34] Toysoldier Thor: I came today to make sure LL is aware of the recent (~ past 2 week) rash of sim instability, in particular - ONCE AGAIN - the large crowed event venues (like live music concerts, fashion shows, art shows). This weekend alone I was at 3 different venues (Friday, Saturday, Monday) where the sims were at about 80, 60, 50 respectively.
[12:34] Toysoldier Thor: Normally these sims/venues are able to handle these crowds quite well (been to them countless time without incident). But all 3 events had avatars lagging real bad and then forcing arbitrary large numbers of avatars to be instantly BOOTED. In all cases the sims did not crash but blocks of avatars get booted off. AND, once booted off, you are forced to wait 5 minutes before the avi is allowed to login AT ALL. At one event I was booted out with most 2 times. The other event 3 times before giving up.
[12:34] Toysoldier Thor: I talked to one sim owner yesterday that thought initially it was a new griefer attack but while Avis were booted off, her sim was showing normal healthy metrics.
[12:34] Duckie Dickins: the last 5 times I've used live chat for an issue, they were not able to help me at all. Lol. I had to either call a phone number or file a support ticket because live chat = noob hand holding chat.
[12:34] Sinful Xubersnak: and although it was an alt, they identified themselves as being a part of admirals group...he is a known griefer for music venues
[12:34] Simon Linden: Does anyone use (or find it being effective) the access limits for payment info on file, or age 18+ ?
[12:35] Rex Cronon: i know lucia. i thought it might help them when they have a concert or something like that
[12:35] Sinful Xubersnak: i havent found that useful simon
[12:35] Kitto Flora: It may be unfair to Simon And Andrew - BUT they are the (only) representatives ov LINDEN LABS that we get to see, and LL is being grossly unfair to Residents by doing nothing abut Greifing.
[12:35] Sinful Xubersnak: wel also tried blocking new avatars
[12:35] Levio Serenity: we had a whole sim full of people at one of our parties on sunday get booted. wasn't a griefer attack, just server hiccup i guess
[12:35] Sinful Xubersnak: or ejecting them immediately
[12:35] Jonvic Toshi: No Simon, where I am they can just land on another part of the SIM anyway
[12:35] Shrike Rossini: We need to be able to sim block at avatar age level not use tools to achieve the same thing
[12:36] Shrike Rossini: ie < 5 days
[12:36] Kitto Flora: My main hope is that S & L will take up the grifing issue with MANAGEMENT and persuade them to re-start the Governance department
[12:36] Talarus Luan: We need llElectrocuteMisbehavingUser() call :P
[12:36] Sinful Xubersnak: well we tried that shrike...someone developed something for us
[12:36] avantgarde Frequency: why can't LL ban known offenders from all sims?
[12:36] Nicholas Melchior: also on the technical end, major venues really need a ban list with far greater capacity than 500 avatars. There are griefers out there that could easiy fill a large portion of a ban list with thir alts alone
[12:36] Sinful Xubersnak: it was only slightly helpful
[12:36] Barbie Alchemi: I have the age limit on my sim, but not the payment limit
[12:36] Simon Linden: Toysoldier - yeah, we've seen those too and I've looked at some of the events. Often that is a network issue, or some attack that causes very bad lag the ends up breaking the sim-to-viewer link but the region manages to stay alive and come back
[12:37] Lucia Nightfire: nicholas, most high ban list count sandboxes or regions cycle their bans to accomodate newer bans
[12:37] Sinful Xubersnak: these griefers are no fools and they have i am sure hundreds of alts so they simply use one that is slightly older
[12:37] Toysoldier Thor: ok... reason why lately?
[12:37] Toysoldier Thor: not the SSB code?
[12:37] avantgarde Frequency: let them keep their 500 accounts just don't allow them to go anywhere... except say Linden owned sims
[12:37] Lucia Nightfire: and use a db
[12:37] Qie Niangao: For persistent griefers, as these are, avatar age won't help: they'll just keep an inventory of alts. Payment Info On File *might* help a little.
[12:37] Simon Linden: I don't think it's SSB
[12:37] Talarus Luan: You can rotate random avs off your ban list when it gets full. Making them check 500 accounts to figure out which one is unbanned is more trouble than creating another alt account
[12:37] Kitto Flora: Bring back the Corn Field :)
[12:37] Adamburp Adamczyk: let yoshui do what he's good at
[12:38] Adamburp Adamczyk: yoshi*
[12:38] Simon Linden: lol Kitto - it's still there
[12:38] Whirly Fizzle: haha Corn field was an incentive to be bad. Everyone wanted to see that
[12:38] Sinful Xubersnak: lol the cornfield?
[12:38] Talarus Luan: and there is *no* way to completely ban someone from the grid.
[12:38] Kitto Flora: Yeah somon - but its unoccupied
[12:38] Nicholas Melchior: we have done that to some degree as well Lucy, but bans do not have date stamps and even cycling would only take a small bite out of it
[12:38] Jonathan Yap: Andrew, maybe it is time for another field trip to the Corn Field
[12:38] Rex Cronon: u know. u can allow people to your sim only after they payed 1000$L, when they leave they get their money back:)
[12:38] Simon Linden: It's been a while since we took a field-trip there
[12:38] Whirly Fizzle: Corn filed is offline now :(
[12:38] Toysoldier Thor: I so want to stay and hear this but I need to go deal with my installers - Later all !!
[12:38] Talarus Luan: You can make it expensive by getting rid of free accounts, but that's about the extent of it.
[12:39] Sinful Xubersnak: bye toy
[12:39] reddot99 Republic: Err, I'll disagree, but it is possible to totally remove somebody from the grid, but it takes a court order,
[12:39] Adamburp Adamczyk: Simon, i ercall a jira bout estate banningm, where if we banned soembody, it'd ban their alts by defaul too
[12:39] avantgarde Frequency: "and there is *no* way to completely ban someone from the grid." -----> maybe there SHOULD be a way... it's software create a way
[12:39] Rex Cronon: i am a free account, but i don't grief. and there are others like me
[12:39] Adamburp Adamczyk: ring any bells?
[12:39] Nicholas Melchior: Between the estate list and backup orbs which are less effective I have over 1200 bans on my region. cycling isnt going to do it
[12:39] Andrew Linden: No Cornfield today. I'm trying to think of ideas on how to curb some grief modes.
[12:39] Talarus Luan: It's not a simple matter of software
[12:39] Talarus Luan: It is how the Internet works that is the problem
[12:39] Rex Cronon: AFK...............................
[12:39] Rex Cronon: afk
[12:39] Purdy Forcella: or make charge to join sl ..
[12:39] Lucia Nightfire: its teh only thing you can do though, you should have asystem keep track of when bans were made and maybe assign priorities/threat levels to each of teh accounts so their time is not all teh same or cycled earlier than others, you can't have unlimited ban counts in-world active at once
[12:40] Sinful Xubersnak: we do undertsand the complexity of the issue
[12:40] avantgarde Frequency: it's a simple if then.... IF you grief... THEN you don't get to enter a sim that someone is paying almost 300 dollars a month for....
[12:40] Jonvic Toshi: Having script/memory limits or alarms for objects may help
[12:40] reddot99 Republic: May I ask an unrelated question?
[12:40] Talarus Luan: The problem is that there is no way to assign a "this is a griefer" tag to a RL person that sticks with that person.
[12:40] Sinful Xubersnak: but we cant fix this alone
[12:40] avantgarde Frequency: that would feed a family of 30 for a year in some neighborhoods on this planet
[12:41] Duckie Dickins: this is the original reason for redzone *ducks and covers* :p
[12:41] Simon Linden: I'm going to assume limiting access to group members isn't considered because that would close down your venues too much
[12:41] Jonvic Toshi: lol Duckie
[12:41] Nicholas Melchior: sorry, thats just not practical
[12:41] Baker Linden ponders that a way to ban an agent / object based on script weight might be useful...
[12:41] Sinful Xubersnak: lol hi5's duckie
[12:41] Talarus Luan: Unless you want to hire Guido and Rocco to go on search-and-break-kneecap missions
[12:41] Qie Niangao: Baker: Can definitely do that with scripts.
[12:41] Barbie Alchemi: they can get get their alt tojooin the group
[12:41] Lexbot Sinister: YES baker
[12:41] Kitto Flora: Baker - yes - basically quota control for a region . Long asked for
[12:41] Qie Niangao: But can't prevent them from entering at first.
[12:41] avantgarde Frequency: we understand that you want the community to police it'self... what we are saying is that we have no viable means of doing that
[12:42] Baker Linden: you can write a script on an object to disallow objects with a certain script weight?
[12:42] avantgarde Frequency: we need tools
[12:42] Whirly Fizzle: Yes
[12:42] Nicholas Melchior: we have been trying to police uorselves but simply dont have the tools
[12:42] Sinful Xubersnak: hmmmm
[12:42] Lexbot Sinister: on the other hand there are already gadgets that do that for you.
[12:42] Simon Linden: yes Baker, that can be done
[12:42] Sinful Xubersnak: perks
[12:42] Baker Linden: oh, that's pretty wicked
[12:42] Adamburp Adamczyk: hell i dumped a miandland sim and went to a pvt one since no help from g-team
[12:42] Talarus Luan: heh.. mainland.
[12:43] Simon Linden: I used to have one of those script-weight listers around here ... see llGetObjectDetails()
[12:43] Kitto Flora: Theres kick out Av based on Script Load that they carry. Does not prevent the big hit when they TP in.
[12:43] Lucia Nightfire: Simon, its in teh corner, lol
[12:43] Qie Niangao: There's one running over in the NW corner of this platform.
[12:43] Nicholas Melchior: when people can come on sim, knock some or all avatars offline at will with no means of tracking who is doing it, we are pretty much left at their mercy
[12:43] avantgarde Frequency: Imagine if you will ... if all of us with griefer problems hijacked every one of your meetings//// welcome to our wolr
[12:43] Lucia Nightfire: you need to upgrade that model too
[12:43] Simon Linden should pay attention
[12:43] Lexbot Sinister: yeah, the problem is still that you can't prevent any of those from entering the sim to begin with- so the damage is already done.
[12:43] reddot99 Republic: That would have to scan every object in the region, wouldn't it?
[12:43] Baker Linden: a region option for that would prevent that TP hit, I guess...
[12:43] Talarus Luan: Also depends on how fast their griefing tools operate.
[12:43] avantgarde Frequency: they are very very fast Tal
[12:44] Whirly Fizzle: I really don't understand why LL don't block login to these griffer viewers. That can be done. A lot of them don't even bother to spoof channel.
[12:44] Talarus Luan: If they work fast enough, the detection script might get starved out before it can stop them
[12:44] Sinful Xubersnak: i like the way you think baker
[12:44] Jonvic Toshi: yes it needs to be at a region level to work
[12:44] avantgarde Frequency: the nanosecond they land on the sim... it's dead in many cases
[12:44] Qie Niangao: Baker: right, the TP hit *in*- and *out*bound.
[12:44] Simon Linden: while script weight is an issue for people making an area laggy, it's not really the same as the griefing problem
[12:44] Qie Niangao: right
[12:44] avantgarde Frequency: the sim goes red on the grid map
[12:44] Talarus Luan: Yep, there are sim security issues that scripts can't detect/deal with
[12:44] avantgarde Frequency: and it takes hours to revive it
[12:44] Levio Serenity: i always assumed the new TPV program was the first step to locking out all non-approved viewers
[12:45] Kitto Flora: Another small Question - What group/Linden is responsible for the new 'Experience' stuff - particularly llAttachToAvatarTemp() ???
[12:45] Whirly Fizzle: Like, for example, when we get stats from LL, one channel used is "Firestorm Release - Firestorm Release" This is noy ours, its Darkstorm. Everyone knows its Darkstorm, so why is that channel allowed to login?
[12:45] Kallista Destiny: It is just too easy to spoof which viewer you are using
[12:45] Lucia Nightfire: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-2467 <--this would help some, heh, although it was shot down as usual
[12:45] Whirly Fizzle: *not
[12:45] Rex Cronon: u can also set a max limit for how many prims an avatar is allowed to rez on a sim/parcel:)
[12:45] MartinRJ: OS viewer-developers would have a very hard time when LL would ban all non-approved viewers, Tiger
[12:45] Talarus Luan: Well, no, the TPV program stopped people from creating what they wanted to pass off as "legitimate" viewers with questionable functionality. It was never going to stop hacker viewers.
[12:45] Lexbot Sinister: So i take it as, Lindens don't know what viewers do the crashing, etc? Would detective work help, and handling the viewers over to you to investigate?
[12:45] Lucia Nightfire: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SEC-1247 <--this would also help
[12:45] Simon Linden: it's been a variety of developers and managers, Kitto - what are you after?
[12:46] Rex Cronon: i thought there is already a limit on max nr of scripts an obect can have
[12:46] Sinful Xubersnak: rex most of us have no rezzing permitted
[12:46] Kitto Flora: Simon - I have weird random problems with llAttachToAvatarTemp() - in a simple test it works, in a complex object it frequently fails.
[12:46] Simon Linden: Lex - since the viewer is open source, they are un-trusted. We have to rely on info the viewer itself sends to identify it.
[12:46] Levio Serenity: whats so hard about applying to get your custom fork approved if you're seriously going to work on something?
[12:46] Lucia Nightfire: its a very generous, 10000 scripts per object, rex, heh
[12:47] Rex Cronon: try filling the sim to max 15k prims. unless those r returned nobody can rez.
[12:47] Lucia Nightfire: or rather prim
[12:47] MartinRJ: viewer-devs are often working on 20 things at the same time :)
[12:47] Andrew Linden: Rex, I think you can still rez temp-on-rez in a 15k prim region
[12:47] MartinRJ: nobody would have the time at LL to approve my 20 forks
[12:47] reddot99 Republic: I have a specific question about what happens when a script is reset, or heck, even the timeline that happens as a script loads?
[12:48] Andrew Linden: go ahead reddot99. Could you elaborate on that?
[12:48] Simon Linden: sure reddot, can you add details on what you want to know?
[12:48] Kallista Destiny: temp tez has limits too
[12:49] Talarus Luan: I have a question about how to re-open old SCR cases so that they can be looked at on the scripting backlog.
[12:49] reddot99 Republic: Well, how does a script load? What happens in terms of memory when a script is reset?
[12:49] Lucia Nightfire: and you can block temp rezzing too if you know how, heh
[12:49] Kitto Flora: Simon - I have weird random problems with llAttachToAvatarTemp() - in a simple test it works, in a complex object it frequently fails. Who is working on that new stuff, may know of bugs?
[12:50] Whirly Fizzle: llAttachToAvatarTemp() is broken in a lot of ways. SSA viewer code broke it even more
[12:50] Kallista Destiny: Yeah detach anything and all temp attach vanish
[12:50] Whirly Fizzle: Ya
[12:50] Barbie Alchemi: Can you give us the name of the specific Linden we need to speak to about the griefing issue?
[12:50] Talarus Luan: oops :P
[12:50] Simon Linden: There isn't a Manager of Griefers, Barbie
[12:51] Talarus Luan: Is the Governance Team completely gone now?
[12:51] Qie Niangao: OOOh... that would be an awesome title, though.
[12:51] Barbie Alchemi: why not, since this the biggest problem in SL?
[12:51] Nicholas Melchior: the Governance team is in chage of that sort of thing but they are notoriously inaccessible
[12:51] Sinful Xubersnak: we know thats why we are here lol
[12:51] Kallista Destiny: No real feedback from the governance team
[12:52] Barbie Alchemi: I need help with protecting the people who have Parkinson's on our sim
[12:52] Talarus Luan: Yeah, that's almost always been the case.
[12:52] Barbie Alchemi: and all others who come to support us
[12:52] Andrew Linden: reddot99, I'm trying to think how to answer your question, about scripts but it is so general...
[12:52] Talarus Luan: It was nice when we had Jack Linden to beat up over these issues, but he's gone now. :(
[12:52] Andrew Linden: the script is parsed and a ScriptObject is instantiated in the C++ code
[12:52] Sinful Xubersnak: we do understand the legalities they are constrained by but simply a general response would help
[12:53] Mireille Jenvieve: I am concerned that some - if not all - of this griefing is cyberbullying, which is (depending on definition in situation) illegal.
[12:53] Kallista Destiny: there did use to be a police blotter where you could seet some of the results of AR
[12:53] Andrew Linden: on reset... dunno if the object is thrown away and a new one is made ... more likely the old one is "reset"
[12:53] Whirly Fizzle: If its any comfort, one of my friends was having griffer issues on her region. She AR'd and within 10 mins there were 2 governance Lindens there , one called Governance3 Linden. So they do still exist ;)
[12:53] Nicholas Melchior: the illegalities being committed by griefers far outweigh and nullify any privacy issues
[12:53] Levio Serenity: i dont think the blotter has been used since 2010
[12:53] Kelly Linden: andrew: the old one is reset, but there are variations on how depending on how the script is reset
[12:53] Simon Linden: Barbie -- if anyone can walk onto your sim, meaning you are not restricted by group membership, payment info, age, etc ... you are wide open. Do you have any access restrictions outside of ban lists?
[12:53] Sinful Xubersnak: well the griefing has even gone to extortion which is definately a crime
[12:53] Kallista Destiny: Nick, NOTHING outweighs privicy
[12:53] Lucia Nightfire: the "Governance" Lindens are follow-up crew
[12:54] Barbie Alchemi: no, we need to be open to the public
[12:54] Nicholas Melchior: Mireille, after having thoroughly researched the issues, much of what griefers do violates a number of US federal laws
[12:54] Sinful Xubersnak: no simon we are a music venue and we want to share the music with anyone that wants to hear it....thats kind of the point
[12:54] Nicholas Melchior: sorry Kallista thats simply not true
[12:54] Jonathan Yap: Even if you block people from your region they can cause trouble from an adjacent one
[12:54] Purdy Forcella: if you tick all of those boxes simon...live music venues wouldnt exist...
[12:54] Simon Linden: Then you're open to abuse. It's just like having an unlocked door on the street - anyone can walk in.
[12:54] avantgarde Frequency: we're dealing with international law...
[12:54] Talarus Luan: That's nice, but likely the griefers are not US citizens, so that won't help you here.
[12:54] Lucia Nightfire: public access, public rezzing areas are where a majority of griefing occurrs, heh
[12:55] Simon Linden: and public events, like music, unfortunately
[12:55] reddot99 Republic: Federal law applies since servers are hosted in united states
[12:55] Rex Cronon: u don't know who they r, nor do u know where they live
[12:55] Barbie Alchemi: we need help to prtect us from 2 specific individuals. we know who they are and where they live and the list of hundreds of their alts
[12:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[12:55] Mireille Jenvieve: I wondered about that, Nick. It concerns me greatly.
[12:55] Nicholas Melchior: no but despite claims to the contrary, LL is responsible for what takes place on its systems. The "service provider" excuse went out with Napster
[12:55] Qie Niangao: Thinking outside the box... if regions could require biometric ID (closed-source module, crypto, all that jazz)... wonder if they'd be interested. Would definitely rule out many attendees, though.
[12:55] Talarus Luan: Where the servers are hosted doesn't really matter, except to the server host.
[12:55] Sinful Xubersnak: when a griefer tells a performer that if they pay them, they will stop targeting them....that is illegal
[12:56] Whirly Fizzle: Oh God, SL Mafia?
[12:56] Purdy Forcella: its blackmail
[12:56] Talarus Luan: Yeah, that's nothing new
[12:56] Nicholas Melchior: oh we have been extorted by griefers a number of times
[12:56] Rex Cronon: u just heard of it whirly:)
[12:56] Lucia Nightfire: yeah, nothing new, that crap happesn daily
[12:56] Kitto Flora: Thats Extortion, not Blackmail
[12:56] Barbie Alchemi: when a griefer verbally harasses someone with a disability that is illegal
[12:56] Sinful Xubersnak: but these people have the ability to shut down that performers show
[12:56] Nalates Urriah: In general those that are attempting to involve RL Law Enforcement are finding that loss typical to SL are not enough to interest law enforcement. That means law suites. The cost of finding the individual to instigate a suite is higher than most can afford.
[12:56] Daemonika Nightfire: someoen tell me too abot phoenix baset viewers which allow you to take complete region owner rights
[12:56] Adamburp Adamczyk: hell, I'm azaed live music still goes on, ref th ip stream bug
[12:56] Lucia Nightfire: I deal with extortionists every otehr day
[12:56] Nicholas Melchior: they even publish rl info on you on the web and demand you pay them to take it down
[12:56] Shrike Rossini: that's happening within the Live music community right now Whirly
[12:57] Whirly Fizzle: Its a shame people can be such assholes...really..... :(
[12:57] Talarus Luan: Welcome to humanity.
[12:57] Nicholas Melchior: you can AR and document all youo want, the same ones are still around with the same avatars
[12:57] Simon Linden: Daemonika - that sounds unlikely, but if you get real proof of that, I'd be very interested
[12:58] Barbie Alchemi: anything is possible with these two griefers
[12:58] Sinful Xubersnak: what we really want is a way to fight back
[12:58] Nicholas Melchior: Mal, US authorities have gone after much less
[12:58] reddot99 Republic: Barbie, go for a court order?
[12:58] Daemonika Nightfire: a proof i dont have, but i can ask friends for that, some people tell around that its a a viewer with an old Phoenix code with hacked god mode
[12:58] Nicholas Melchior: *NaL, sorry
[12:58] Whirly Fizzle: WE heard about that viewer she talks about based on Phoenix. No idea if it can really do that.
[12:58] Nalates Urriah: np
[12:59] Daemonika Nightfire: they tell, they can return all on the sim and turn off restart and more
[12:59] Whirly Fizzle: Its the well known Phoenix based griff viewer though heh
[12:59] Shrike Rossini: LL simply need to stop these two individuals logging onto SL or prevent their viewer connecting to the grid
[12:59] Talarus Luan: Right now, the only real way to fight back is to make walled gardens, and keep them well-pruned.
[12:59] Lucia Nightfire: its fake, Whirls
[12:59] Nicholas Melchior: that may be the pre-Phoenix Emerald viewer that caused so much fuss
[12:59] Jonvic Toshi: I need to head out, but thank you Simon, Andrew and Baker for listening.
[12:59] Lexbot Sinister: Hmm, i wonder if it would be somehow possible to create a sorts of "door/hallway" to pre-check the avatars before they enter the sim the first time..
[12:59] Lucia Nightfire: its advertised with those features, but it can't execut them
[12:59] Simon Linden: The top-secret god mode stuff is pretty well locked down ... we've learned to be paranoid :P
[12:59] Baker Linden: Thank you for coming, Jon
[12:59] Whirly Fizzle: WEll, thats good
[13:00] Talarus Luan: So, any response to the question about how to reopen old SCR issues so they can be considered again?
[13:00] Lucia Nightfire: they even coded it to display those features in teh tabs, buts its marketed to get peopel to install it so it can extract names and passwords, like many of these copybot viewers are doing now
[13:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[13:00] Barbie Alchemi: I am so fearful after the things i have seen them do that I am afraid to hold events on my sim!
[13:00] Simon Linden: yes, it's easy to program the viewer to appear to be in god mode, that's just a simple switch. But not to actually do anything on the servers ... we don't trust anything a viewer sends to the server
[13:00] Kitto Flora: Are there any serious Client Developers here today?
[13:01] Whirly Fizzle: Btw, there is a bug in Phoenix viewer - the legit one and in other V1 based viewers I would imagine that makes estate banning with them useless. They don't really estate ban. So... never ever ever estate ban an avatar on a v1 based viewer. Unban them and reban with a v3 based viewer.
[13:01] Whirly Fizzle: The banned avatars will appear on ban list but they are NOT banned serverside
[13:01] Nicholas Melchior: well, the V1 viewers wont be much use for anything soon enough anyway
[13:01] Rex Cronon: well something is causing all those sims to crash, all those prims to be returned. it is a technical problem:)
[13:02] Barbie Alchemi: and somehow they can pick my items and move them around while I am watching!
[13:02] MartinRJ: would be a good start if LL would fix the 'turn off scripts estatewide' switch so it doesn't break content anymore
[13:02] Simon Linden: yes, and we're constantly working on those crashes, Rex. It's an arms race that's been going on for more than the 6 years I've been in it
[13:02] Nicholas Melchior: unless you want to look at avatar texture maps all day
Simulator_User_Group
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