User Experience Interest Group/Transcripts/2009-06-11

== Topic & Summary ==
User Experience Interest Group Discussion for June 11, 2009.
Topic: Misc. (Unicode; Cache; Trans-grid Inventory; Permissions)
No summary is yet available for this meeting. Please edit this page to add one.
=== Links ===
* Meerkat Viewer
== Transcript ==
[15:01]	Jacek Antonelli waves to armin 	Jacek Antonelli waves to armin
[15:01]	Armin Weatherwax: 	hey :)
[15:02]	Armin Weatherwax: 	you ??? usability?
[15:04]	Jacek Antonelli: 	It's supposed to be a ❤ but something's messed up in Imprudence
[15:04]	Armin Weatherwax: 	hi charlette :)
[15:04]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hey Charlette
[15:05]	Charlette Proto: 	looks like Garn has some trouble installing the Imp viewer
[15:05]	Armin Weatherwax: 	hm, jacek, doesn't also show up in chat :(
[15:06]	Charlette Proto: 	didn't you just see her chat then?
[15:06]	Armin Weatherwax: 	(3 whitespaces instead)
[15:06]	Charlette Proto: 	awww weird
[15:06]	Armin Weatherwax: 	Jacek Antonelli: It's supposed to be a ❤ but something's messed up in Imprudence
[15:06]	Charlette Proto: 	could make the meeting a bit disfunctional
[15:06]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Strange
[15:06]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Well, it's a heart. But I guess the issues are worse than I thought?
[15:07]	Armin Weatherwax: 	hm, maybe german locale adds some complexity
[15:07]	Charlette Proto: 	the group IMs are still borked, but I haven't seen this before
[15:08]	Charlette Proto: 	people have had some weird voice (level at 0) problems with the latest RC
[15:08]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hey Gen
[15:08]	Charlette Proto: 	hi Geneko
[15:08]	Armin Weatherwax: 	(even using english localisation for imp, the translations are ... er .. a nice try)
[15:08]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Hi everyone.
[15:08]	Armin Weatherwax: 	hi geneko
[15:08]	Charlette Proto: 	look even Chinese chat works
[15:08]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hi all :-)
[15:09]	Armin Weatherwax: 	hi morgaine
[15:09]	Charlette Proto: 	hi Morg XOXO
[15:09]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hey Morgaine
[15:10]	Morgaine Dinova waves 	Morgaine Dinova waves
[15:10]	Morgaine Dinova: 	How are things, bad bugs excepted? :-(
[15:10]	Charlette Proto: 	Armin did you mean you found UI text probs in the Imp viewer
[15:11]	Armin Weatherwax: 	i see atm 3 persons with group tag "I ??? Usability". well. that doesn't exactly rock
[15:12]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Aww ... the ??? is actually a pretty heart
[15:12]	Charlette Proto: 	ah OK characterset problems in windows
[15:12]	Armin Weatherwax: 	i guessed so, morgaine :)
[15:12]	Morgaine Dinova: 	:-)
[15:12]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I'm on Windows and I see them fine...
[15:12]	Charlette Proto: 	XP has some weird shit popping up in tags, are you on XP Armin?
[15:13]	Armin Weatherwax: 	debian 5.0
[15:13]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hey Techwolf
[15:13]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Debian XP ;-)
[15:13]	Armin Weatherwax: 	hi techwolf
[15:13]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe Debbie and Ian moved to Redmond
[15:13]	Armin Weatherwax: 	wit that xpwindow11
[15:13]	Armin Weatherwax: 	:D
[15:13]	Charlette Proto: 	all they wanted was a nice house and a Lexus each
[15:14]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	hi all
[15:14]	Armin Weatherwax: 	sorry, charlette, no: linux
[15:14]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hi Tech
[15:14]	Charlette Proto: 	Unicode; in linux I think it means Eunuch Code
[15:14]	Charlette Proto: 	hi Tech sry
[15:15]	Armin Weatherwax: 	no probs using unicode in any other app
[15:15]	Jacek Antonelli: 	It's a bug in Imp 1.1
[15:15]	Charlette Proto: 	did you try the 'webdings' fonts in other tags Armin?
[15:16]	Armin Weatherwax: 	lol, ok, and a alpha feature of 1.2 ;)
[15:16]	Jacek Antonelli: 	heh, yeah
[15:16]	Charlette Proto: 	the alternate font or characterset translation bug?
[15:17]	Geneko Nemeth: 	... it's not "Webdings", its dingbat codepoints in Unicode.
[15:17]	Charlette Proto: 	the Imp font isn't bad at high res, but on small screens (notebooks) the LL font is more likeable
[15:18]	Armin Weatherwax: 	hah. what was the font which is going to be the next for imp ?
[15:18]	Charlette Proto: 	ah OK geneko
[15:18]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I think LL switched to DejaVu as of 1.23. But maybe they switched back?
[15:19]	Jacek Antonelli: 	We're switching to Comic Sans MS for the next version of Imprudence.
[15:19]	Charlette Proto: 	Imp uses a different (OS) font for UI
[15:19]	Armin Weatherwax: 	oh. i love that one ... it fits so much to ll prefs ...
[15:19]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehehe
[15:19]	Geneko Nemeth: 	... nope, still the old one.
[15:19]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe nice, maybe we could also try one of the 'script' fonts like McCabe's handwirting
[15:20]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Aww, not my handwriting?
[15:20]	Charlette Proto: 	waiting for prim whores to arrive - still holding up above 30fps
[15:20]	Armin Weatherwax: 	good that there is no whiteboard or yoll see how my pawwriting looks like
[15:20]	Charlette Proto: 	that would be cute Geneko, chinese handwirtten UI
[15:21]	Techwolf Lupindo smiels 	Techwolf Lupindo smiels
[15:21]	Geneko Nemeth: 	... bah too much work :<
[15:21]	Armin Weatherwax: 	(always missing keys with my paws, thats same issue)
[15:21]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Do you know how hard it takes to write 6763 glyphs by hand? I'm not even talking about complete Chinese support.
[15:22]	Charlette Proto: 	yup, when whiteboards are introduced in Second Life™ we will see some smudgy diagrams when furries get to the board
[15:22]	Jacek Antonelli: 	heh
[15:22]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	他們爲什麽不說中文（香港特別行政區）
[15:22]	Charlette Proto: 	I can imagine Geneko
[15:22]	Armin Weatherwax: 	geneko, i can't imagine. 26 is hard for me.
[15:22]	Geneko Nemeth: 	.... what's with the (香港特別行政區)?
[15:23]	Geneko Nemeth gave up at 562... 	Geneko Nemeth gave up at 562...
[15:23]	Charlette Proto: 	always makes me think if the pictorial alphabets versus the western form cause much troble in building apps
[15:23]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Only if you port from Chinese to French.
[15:24]	Armin Weatherwax: 	Hong Kong Special Administrative Region?
[15:24]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Yeah, ...why?
[15:24]	Charlette Proto: 	*-*`````aaHahahahahahahHaaa`````*-*
[15:24]	Charlette Proto: 	translate a word into chinese then french and back to english to see what you get
[15:24]	Armin Weatherwax: 	just for knowing how good babelfish is
[15:24]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Not very.
[15:25]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Well, we have vocabularies of dozens of thousands of words, made up of just a few characters. It's not very different to lots of Chinese symbols made up of just a few brush strokes. In fact the visual brushstrokes seem a better candidate for learning than odd sequences of letters.
[15:25]	Charlette Proto: 	well many real world apps eg databases must get very complicated when it comes to dealing with language/character related things
[15:26]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Indeed, but we have Unicode Consortium for that.
[15:26]	Armin Weatherwax: 	i tried german-english-chinise and backwards - good to learn what artifacts are
[15:26]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Not that they are infallable..
[15:27]	Armin Weatherwax: 	and btw chinese characters show up correctly here
[15:27]	Armin Weatherwax: 	(i think so at least)
[15:27]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Speaking of languages, I've been not paying attention to the localization of viewer since this summer and now other translators have been messing up my work. XD
[15:27]	Charlette Proto: 	that may be tru Morg, but so much knowledge is now coded in westen alphabets and most methods for dealing with it are all western oriented eg NLP (Natural Language Processing) and lots of AI concepts are based/defined this way
[15:28]	Charlette Proto: 	ah you mean all the current localisations in the viewer we have now Geneko
[15:28]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Just Chinese.
[15:29]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Charlette: I think that's just our local conceit. There are more Chinese than "westerners" :-)
[15:29]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Not that I understand other lanaugages...
[15:29]	Charlette Proto: 	I know but the AI and such principles for knowledge engineering are all based on the english form
[15:30]	Charlette Proto: 	just look at stuff like Lisp expressions or PERL
[15:30]	Jacek Antonelli thinks PERL is based on an alien language 	Jacek Antonelli thinks PERL is based on an alien language
[15:30]	Charlette Proto: 	very english at the core
[15:30]	Charlette Proto: 	PERL is the way tech people dream
[15:31]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Does this render for you? Аҧсуа Башҡорт བོད་ཡིག Эрзянь 𐌲𐌿𐍄𐌹𐍃𐌺 客家話 هَوُسَا ᐃᓄᒃᑎᑐᑦ कश्मीरी / كشميري Кыргызча ພາສາລາວ Мокшень Молдовеняскэ ᓀᐦᐃᔭᐍᐏᐣ Нохчийн ଓଡି଼ଆ অসমীযা় Ποντιακά རྫོང་ཁ रोमानी سنڌي Словѣ́ньскъ / ⰔⰎⰑⰂⰡⰐⰠⰔⰍⰟ ትግርኛ ᏣᎳᎩ Удмурт
[15:31]	Geneko Nemeth: 	(where-is (lisp expressions) (influenced-by (english)))
[15:31]	Charlette Proto: 	even worse - reverse Hungarian notation, couldn't find anything more western language oriented than that
[15:31]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Some of them don't show up.
[15:31]	Armin Weatherwax: 	MtBdLfRg.ttf (emerald, verticallife) look nice
[15:32]	Geneko Nemeth: 	But it's non-free.
[15:32]	Geneko Nemeth: 	And it gives many people a headache.
[15:32]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Just ask official client users.
[15:32]	Morgaine Dinova: 	It's true that the language of science and engineering is English --- even Chinese publish in western journals, whereas we don't publish in theirs. But in terms of sheer population, the Chinese speak Chinese, and 99% (or whatever high number) are not gonna learn English :-)
[15:32]	Charlette Proto: 	avatarFemaleWesternNicePerson
[15:33]	Geneko Nemeth: 	English is a mandatory class here in Shanghai, and I imagine in other provinces too.
[15:33]	Charlette Proto: 	agreen on the population base
[15:33]	Armin Weatherwax: 	cyrill yes, chinese yes, arabic yes dunno-lookslike-something-from-india yes. rest squares
[15:33]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Well, not exactly mandatory because you get to choose from several foreign languages in the college entrance exams. But in practice, most schools teach English.
[15:33]	Charlette Proto: 	not surprised Geneko, I bet you sign contracts with Malesians or Indonesian people in english too
[15:33]	Geneko Nemeth: 	From grade three.
[15:34]	Charlette Proto: 	nt to mention IMs
[15:34]	Charlette Proto: 	or cybersex
[15:34]	Morgaine Dinova: 	What age is that?
[15:34]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Not that I'm in the know of this, being a Canadian after all. ^^
[15:35]	Morgaine Dinova: 	If grade 3 is single figures age, that's damn impressive.
[15:35]	Charlette Proto: 	lucky, Canadians and US citizens can talk english amongs themselves, just need to switch to chinese to talk to the majority of the rest of the world
[15:36]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Not that ever matters, because they don't talk to each other. Period.
[15:36]	Charlette Proto: 	true
[15:36]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Americans talk English? Lies! ;-)
[15:37]	Charlette Proto: 	both mediate through the Indian call centres and Chinese manufacturer reps
[15:37]	Armin Weatherwax: 	tlhIngan Hol?
[15:37]	Geneko Nemeth: 	.lojban.!
[15:37]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Heh
[15:38]	Armin Weatherwax: 	NuqneH!?
[15:38]	Jacek Antonelli rubs her eyes sleepily. 	Jacek Antonelli rubs her eyes sleepily.
[15:38]	Armin Weatherwax: 	lol
[15:39]	Charlette Proto: 	hey how about custom user language/semantic issues in the UI XML, there is a bit of scope there for various eg youth/elderly etc support
[15:39]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Merov today in the OS Viewer meeting said that the viewer cache is designed to work shared between multiple viewers simultaneously. Does that continue to be true with Impru sharing with LL's?
[15:39]	Charlette Proto: 	ususally leads to inventorry corruption Morgaine
[15:40]	Morgaine Dinova: 	You sure? Impru changed the cache formats?
[15:40]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Or bug in LL's cache code?
[15:40]	Charlette Proto: 	for some time I tried sharing between the Hippo, LL and Imprudence and it borked a lot
[15:40]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I think Merov probably meant multiple instances of the same viewer simultaneously. I'm not sure if Imp's cache is still compatible with SL's. Probably.
[15:41]	Armin Weatherwax: 	that could be caused of icompatible settings.xml files
[15:41]	Charlette Proto: 	that is what I think, running a number of sessions at once
[15:41]	Armin Weatherwax: 	+n
[15:42]	Charlette Proto: 	much safer running separate cache for each app (settings config file) not to mention going to OpenSim Grid with the same cache
[15:43]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I think it's important that cache compatibility be maintained. It's not too bad deleting the cache now, but when they fix the code to allow large caches, the loss of a say 1 TB of cache just isn't on.
[15:43]	Charlette Proto: 	the UUIDs really don't like to be mixed between grids in my experience
[15:43]	Morgaine Dinova: 	UUIDs shouldn't collide, in theory
[15:44]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Once in a blue moon :-)
[15:44]	Charlette Proto: 	the cache was never intended to be huge, that just doesn't make sense
[15:44]	Armin Weatherwax: 	or they should not be named UUID ...
[15:45]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Charlette: yes, currently, as it wasn't designed to be large. But we'd dedicate a 1 TB drive to cache if we could. Reloading old data repeatedly just doesn't make sense.
[15:45]	Charlette Proto: 	I know Morgaine but in reality the issue gets rater messy when the LL inventory is in the cache when you go to the OpenSim or some other grid
[15:45]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehe "_Usually_ Unique IDentifiers" ....
[15:45]	Armin Weatherwax: 	i tm usually
[15:46]	Charlette Proto: 	precisely Jacek, not to mention having the same a avie name with diff UIDS on diff grids
[15:46]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Charlette: shouldn't collide UUIDs, no matter in which grid they're generated, assuming that the random number generator isn't broken.
[15:46]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Inventory caches should definitely be stored separately per account
[15:46]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Even if they have the same avatar name but different grids
[15:46]	Charlette Proto: 	that is what I'm thinking of jacek
[15:47]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek: why? As soon as we have interop, you'll be needing the UUID from one grid in another. They might as well be in the same cache.
[15:47]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Asset cache though, it _should_ be possible to have one, even. Heck, you *should* be able to put it on a network-shared location and have everyone in your house / building use the same asset cache.
[15:47]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yep
[15:47]	Charlette Proto: 	as a rule, multiple caches and different viewers for each grid (even if they are the same app_ are the safest simple way out
[15:48]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Morgaine: Not the asset cache, just the inventory cache, i.e. remembering what you have in inventory. Each account would have a different list
[15:49]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek: currently, I agree, because LL have this stupid inventory system that's stored in their DB. But with interop, the inventory belongs to you, not to any one grid, and you take items between grids with you.
[15:49]	Charlette Proto: 	BTW why doesn't the viewer clear the index files when you clear the cashe????
[15:49]	Charlette Proto: 	many users need to manually delete the cache files
[15:50]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Ie. the viewer's idea of "inventory" will become a composite of the partial inventories from various grids and worlds.
[15:50]	Charlette Proto: 	that would be ideal Morgaine, but not realistic for now
[15:50]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, Morgaine. Well, in that case, we'd want a concept of a shared inventory between accounts
[15:51]	Armin Weatherwax: 	+ the inv will *eventually* be stored sowhere in the web (to some extend)
[15:51]	Charlette Proto: 	maybe it is worth to talk it through sinece some people are using diff grids so the code should support the process of switching grids and protect the integrity of the avie's inventory etc
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli: 	But it couldn't be the only concept. There would *need* to be separate inventories for accounts, at least as one choice. If Jack and Jane share a computer, they will want to have separate inventories, not messing up each others'.
[15:52]	Morgaine Dinova: 	In OGP it would be one account, for example an OpenID-based one that gives you access to many worlds or grids. Beyond OGP (which isn't really on the cards atm), then yeah, the inventory would be in your PC, so that it's shared between accounts effectively.
[15:52]	Charlette Proto: 	the way your LL accounts ahve private storage areas on the HD the moltiple grids could too when there is a clash
[15:53]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Or, to put it another way -- have per-account inventories, but expand the idea of an "account" to span multiple grids
[15:53]	Charlette Proto: 	precisely
[15:54]	Armin Weatherwax: 	or one identity across grids and mulitple accounts, one each grid
[15:54]	Charlette Proto: 	don't think this has benn well defined so far by anyone, but OSG people would be the closes to having worked with these probs eg Hippo people
[15:54]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Right
[15:55]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Although the ability to share *some* inventory between people would be very useful
[15:55]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Well a "clash" is one of those "cannot hqppen" things in UUID space. Sure, they will occasionally because sometimes the random algorithm is poor, but in principle, it doesn't happen often. So, when you TP from one world to another, the only time when a given UUID is used for an asset in both places is when you've actually taken the item with you.
[15:55]	Charlette Proto: 	'Ideal' would mean the same account (avie) would be valid on multiple grids, eg Char is mine and not LL's and goes to any of the grids
[15:56]	Jacek Antonelli: 	For example, I would *love* to have a folder in my inventory that was shared with all project members, and they could add or edit items in it, for collaboration
[15:56]	Charlette Proto: 	but that is really outside of the LL view of things
[15:56]	Charlette Proto: 	that is yet another point Jacek, multiple users
[15:57]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek: that's something nobody's ever mentioned in the context of virtual worlds: shared inventories between different agents. Interesting idea, and interesting that it's got no mention :-)
[15:57]	Armin Weatherwax: 	charlette that is what i mean by "identity"; eg say Armin is my identity. My Accounts are Armin Weatherwax here and Armin Whotsoever elsewhere
[15:57]	Charlette Proto: 	sharing an Inventory folder for collaboration would be a great thing
[15:57]	Jacek Antonelli: 	So.... I think we can all agree that the current inventory model of "single user on a single grid with no sharing" is not viable in the long run
[15:57]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Aye
[15:57]	Charlette Proto: 	precisely Jacek
[15:58]	Charlette Proto: 	the inventory should be an independent internet stored (or local) entity that can be managed and used on any grid
[15:59]	Armin Weatherwax: 	What we still need is a open inventory license
[15:59]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yep. It should be up to you where your inventory is stored. Locally on your PC, at your ISP, on S3, in SL, or anywhere you like.
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli: 	The work on iInterop will surely flush out most of the issues that need to be addressed, and shake up the current mentality
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli: 	*interop
[15:59]	Charlette Proto: 	the way gmail can send emails to hotmail etc regardless of what you send etc
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah. I want to store my scripts directory in Git! hehehe
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli: 	(Or heck, all of it)
[16:00]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Indeed
[16:00]	Charlette Proto: 	agrees, but will LL ever support the interop initiative in this way
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hrm, maybe not. But they aren't the only players on the field
[16:00]	Charlette Proto: 	scratches her ass
[16:01]	Charlette Proto: 	well, this surely must be the issue to press on the LL dudes
[16:01]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Personally, I'm looking to the OpenSim community to be the leaders on the server side in the coming years
[16:01]	Morgaine Dinova: 	They will follow. They're already following Opensim. A week ago Infinity said she wants to get Hypergrid into OGP, and toda she said that she wants to get Cable Beach into OGP. So LL are following Opensim now, not leading the way anymore.
[16:01]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Innovation leaders, that is
[16:02]	Jacek Antonelli nods 	Jacek Antonelli nods
[16:02]	Geneko Nemeth: 	It is a problem when you can have assets made by others brought to independent sims where the sim operator can do whatever they please with the asset.
[16:02]	Charlette Proto: 	all this needs some viewer UI support to administer I think
[16:02]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I'm looking forward to the day when LL just ups and switches to OpenSim. :D
[16:03]	Jacek Antonelli: 	(Not for a long time, I expect... but eventually, I'm sure they will.)
[16:03]	Charlette Proto: 	the same way as logging into other grids does (eg LL Beta Grid)
[16:03]	Morgaine Dinova: 	If you don't trust the sim operator, or if your business model relies on your having closed assets, then just don't visit those worlds. Your choice.
[16:04]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Well, it's not "my choice".
[16:04]	Charlette Proto: 	even more issues for the viewer UI I think
[16:04]	Charlette Proto: 	what is not your choice Geneko?
[16:04]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Morgaine: But if someone visits your world and gets some items, they are added to their cache, right? And then they can just go to another world, and they'd still have the item in their cache.
[16:05]	Charlette Proto: 	I see a universal platform as the only way towards infinite growth of the virtual worlds
[16:05]	Geneko Nemeth: 	The asset creator, the asset consumer and the sim operator can be different people, and while the asset consumer can trust the operator, the asset creator may not.
[16:05]	Morgaine Dinova: 	It is your choice, because LL won't release SL assets unless the creator (not owner) of assets has clicked on the "interop bit" for each item produced, manually. So it'll be entirely in your control whether your assets appear outside the grid. (SecondInventory excepted --- LL is not stopping that leak, despite there being no interop bit yet)
[16:05]	Jacek Antonelli: 	So unless there is some defined policy / enforcement, anything could be transported to another grid without the knowledge of the operators
[16:05]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Heya Thomas :)
[16:05]	Geneko Nemeth: 	That is true, jacek.
[16:05]	Charlette Proto: 	hi Thomas (are we turning this forum into a furry fest hehe)
[16:06]	Thomas Shikami: 	Greetings
[16:06]	Charlette Proto: 	no offence
[16:06]	Geneko Nemeth: 	It's not "leak" - DRM is futile. ^^
[16:06]	Charlette Proto: 	please
[16:06]	Thomas Shikami: 	I see, you're talking about assets in other grids?
[16:06]	Charlette Proto: 	yup
[16:06]	Thomas Shikami: 	is this logged and publicized?
[16:06]	Morgaine Dinova: 	It's a virtual world. Humans are naturally the exception here :-)
[16:06]	Charlette Proto: 	assets and inventory issues in context of using multiple or interop grids
[16:07]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Thomas: Yep, transcripts go up on SL's wiki after the meeting
[16:07]	Geneko Nemeth: 	In the end, if you want to smuggle stuff out it's always possible.
[16:07]	Thomas Shikami: 	ahh, then no comment
[16:07]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehehe, so secretive ;)
[16:07]	Charlette Proto: 	eep he/she poofed
[16:07]	Geneko Nemeth: 	You could IM Jacek, if you have something private to say...
[16:07]	Jacek Antonelli: 	wb Armin
[16:07]	Thomas Shikami: 	I can do at the end of the meeting
[16:07]	Armin Weatherwax: 	ty:)
[16:07]	Geneko Nemeth: 	It's already ended. ^^
[16:08]	Thomas Shikami: 	ohh
[16:08]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	to get busness more involved with opengrid or gride that interop with other grids, there needs to a "no export" flag or a field of grid to allow/not allow to enforce content creater wishes of not allowing item they sell/create on other grids. If a content creater makes a nice build that sells for $$$$ and someone come along, buys it, go to another grid with said assesst and make copies of it for whatever reason, exploit or whatever, then that content creater isn't going to be attractd to the interop grid.
[16:08]	Thomas Shikami: 	so logging stops?
[16:08]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Still logging.
[16:08]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Eh, I dunno, Gen. Time has no meaning anymore, now that the other meeting runs half an hour late
[16:09]	Thomas Shikami: 	there is less of an issue about exporting assets really. The main problem is importing them back into Agni
[16:09]	Charlette Proto: 	time is a relative thing and it stretches and bends easily in UXIG
[16:09]	Morgaine Dinova: 	No need to "smuggle", you can do it openly. LL get a cut from every sale on xstreet, and xstreet sells SecondInventory, which doesn't respect assets that have been marked full perm but do not have the "interop bit" set by their creators (since it doesn't exist yet). Since LL gets money from the SI sales, it's effectively legitimatizing SI use, which means that that leak is kinda authorized.
[16:09]	Armin Weatherwax: 	meerkat has a nice importer
[16:10]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I saw that, Armin! Dang Meerkat beat Imprudence to the punch ;)
[16:10]	Charlette Proto: 	agreen with Morgaine
[16:10]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Ours is going to be way better, though. I think. I haven't tried Meerkat's yet, but I hear it's similar to the TestClient's capabilities
[16:10]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I thought the Meerkat project was dead. It's released new code?
[16:10]	Jacek Antonelli: 	i.e. only exports prims and textures
[16:10]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yep, Morgaine. They had a new version recently
[16:10]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Wow!
[16:10]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	I could not get the meerkat code to compile.
[16:11]	Armin Weatherwax: 	hehe, it was not difficult to port that to imp ..., jacek, i can mail you the patch
[16:11]	Charlette Proto: 	dependency on the process in place becomes the rule for the future regulations in place
[16:11]	Jacek Antonelli: 	And it has a bunch of stuff that we were planning for Imprudence, too! I said to McCabe, "Hey look, Meerkat did Imprudence 1.2 for us!" XD
[16:11]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Meerkat is extremely cool in its design, in terms of interop. That's how it should be done in my view, client-based.
[16:11]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I don't really think exporting stuff from one grid to another would be undesirable for people who make full-perm stuff...
[16:12]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Geneko: If the creator field is respected, then perhaps it's okay...
[16:12]	Thomas Shikami: 	the creator is the problem for intra grid travel
[16:12]	Thomas Shikami: 	inter, I mean
[16:12]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Meerkat: http://meerkatviewer.org/wiki/Main_Page
[16:12]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Geneko: sure. In fact, I think it's the kiss of death to a producer who doesn't want her content to travel. But if they don't want that, well, their choice.
[16:13]	Thomas Shikami: 	I didn't mean the creator in person, I meant the field with the uuid of creator
[16:13]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Err.. what? Morgaine, what do you mean?
[16:13]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Thomas: Yeah I can see that. "Owner: Kakurady Drakenar Creator: {ae1c96b8-9bca-4e5b-9418-80e5397a2b41}"... who is this ae1c96b8 guy?
[16:14]	Charlette Proto: 	only a problem really with the content created by LL, most creators sell to the resident of Second Life™ without thinkig that if the user were to use it on another grid they would loos - maybe even the reverse, they would like the fame to cross the grid boundaries this way (word of mouth etc)
[16:14]	Thomas Shikami: 	if there was inter grid travel of assets into Agni, there is another thing, like, there could be megaprims coming into the grid, malicious LSL code, faked creator id, impossible prim parameters, whatnot
[16:14]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Geneko: I mean that if someone buys an item from a creator in SL, TPs to an open grid and discovers that the item didn't come with them because the creator had not allowed it, then they'll never again but an item without the "interop bit" set. So those creators will go out of business --- their choice, their loss.
[16:14]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Or even os* functions!
[16:15]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Indeed. For Imprudence, I'm planning the import/export format to include the creator -- both as a UUID and an avatar name, and perhaps other information like email or RL name
[16:15]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Morgaine: Hah, I think you overestimate the average consumer's principles. ;)
[16:15]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Morgaine: I thought I was talking about how mod/copy/trans implies interop... I guess I wasn't.
[16:16]	Charlette Proto: 	after all would you rather have shops/vendors on all grids or just sell to all users on any grid regardless of where the biggest populations is, even having private grids with no lag where procurement of your goods is made
[16:16]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I say XStreet OSGrid. ^^
[16:16]	Armin Weatherwax: 	hm. for another aspect of "interop": isnt it time to have more and bigger things that several viewer projects plan and do together?
[16:16]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Geneko: mod/copy/trans *does* have a certain connotation of "Do whatever you want with it"....
[16:16]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek: yeah, I'm not talking about everybody, but about those who make an effort to do the right thing. Which may be the minority, but even so. :-))))
[16:17]	Jacek Antonelli: 	But I don't think it's Right to assume that because someone has made something mod/copy/trans, that they are implicitly giving permission to transfer it between grids
[16:17]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Indeed, but that's what SAecondInventory does.
[16:18]	Charlette Proto: 	slight problem is the fact that LL took over the xStreet business for very 'good' security reasons concerning the L$ trade
[16:18]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Right, Morgaine
[16:18]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Gom nom nom...
[16:19]	Charlette Proto: 	so what abour GridDollar??? how could that work? Citibank I suppose
[16:19]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Really, the current permissions system is woefully inadequate. It's so crude and coarse.
[16:19]	Thomas Shikami: 	and hard to maintain as well
[16:19]	Jacek Antonelli: 	It's a marvel SL's economy functions as well as it does
[16:20]	Thomas Shikami: 	how many creations have you seen that are no transfer containing transferable no copy inventory?
[16:20]	Geneko Nemeth: 	But would you like the permissions be as many as the NTFS access controls?
[16:20]	Charlette Proto: 	true Jacek, but if anything it has been 'closed' with the takeover of xStreet so the economy is again in the hands of LL exclusively now
[16:21]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Well, even within SL, the permissions system is really poor. You just can't express the full range of things people should be allowed / not allowed to do in 3 checkboxes.
[16:22]	Charlette Proto: 	surely, there has to be a GridDollar one day to support the interop grid
[16:22]	Jacek Antonelli: 	For example, hair designers would *kill* to have a way to say "You can resize and recolor the hair I make, but you can't view or modify the prim shape parameters."
[16:23]	Jacek Antonelli: 	But currently, all those activities are goverened by one checkbox, "Modify"
[16:23]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yep. For example, the open source creators can't specify that a script is open and cannot be closed by future owners. It really sucks, like an enforced BSD license.
[16:23]	Charlette Proto: 	behind the three checkboxes is just a number so I think many masks could be incorporated into it, I don't suppose the number is 2 bit wide
[16:23]	Armin Weatherwax: 	+1024 morgaine
[16:23]	Thomas Shikami: 	it's 31 of bits, that are all working like fuses
[16:24]	Thomas Shikami: 	they are 1 at the beginning and are turned off on ownership transfer
[16:24]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Armin: I like the power of 2 ;-)
[16:24]	Charlette Proto: 	31 bits would allow for lots of masks
[16:24]	Thomas Shikami: 	they cannot be turned on any more then
[16:24]	Armin Weatherwax: 	lol
[16:24]	Geneko Nemeth: 	But 25 of them are already used.
[16:24]	Thomas Shikami: 	uhm, four are used
[16:24]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Charlette: Perhaps, but the main roadblock isn't technical -- the permissions system could be replaced, but it would require policy changes and upset the whole economy.
[16:24]	Thomas Shikami: 	move, modify, copy, transfer
[16:25]	Armin Weatherwax: 	there are 10 types of persons .. those who understand binary ... and others
[16:25]	Jacek Antonelli: 	So many creators depend on the permission system behaving the same as it does today
[16:25]	Geneko Nemeth: 	(Move, modify, copy, transfer) * (Base, Owner, Group, Everyone, Next) + Update-permission-when-rez
[16:25]	Charlette Proto: 	yes Jacek I understand, just thinking of the legacy assets atm
[16:25]	Geneko Nemeth: 	(Which shows up as '*')
[16:25]	Thomas Shikami: 	there is one word per group
[16:26]	Thomas Shikami: 	you have 31 bits per base, owner, group, everyone, next
[16:26]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Armin: the last word should be "and the rest", it flows better. I have the t-shirt :-)
[16:26]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe
[16:26]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Perhaps, though, there could be a new, better permissions system, which also included "Legacy Modify", "Legacy Copy", etc. -- in other words, checkboxes to have the current permissions behavior, so that old items could be transferred to the new system
[16:27]	Armin Weatherwax: 	morgaine ... arg ... again my lazy vocabulary learning .... :D
[16:27]	Charlette Proto: 	looks like from our perspective the interop would not pose any 'moral' problems providing LL would play allong
[16:28]	Thomas Shikami: 	because of the fuse bit behaviour, you won't be able to readd flags to content that went to next owner already
[16:28]	Thomas Shikami: 	so if there was an interop flag added, it'd be off for many people already
[16:28]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Because of LL's recent conversion to the "Let's not confused the newbies" philosophy, I think there will be just a single extra tick box, called something like "Allow object to migrate to other grids".
[16:29]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Default off.
[16:29]	Charlette Proto: 	ah OK, so the data format is more limited than I assumed it to me, eg masking more complex constructs is simply not on
[16:29]	Armin Weatherwax: 	er. and forced license choosing.
[16:30]	Thomas Shikami: 	I'd love to have license data applied to assets
[16:31]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I'd like them to add a "Use standard license" tickbox too, which if ticked brings up a new panel with all the Creative Commons licenses listed, plus the various GPLs and BSDs and everything else that's common.
[16:31]	Armin Weatherwax: 	i mean if dont have to coose its up to guessing what you want
[16:31]	Charlette Proto: 	additional issues arrise from consuming/paying for Real Life™ content on the grids eg musiv or video etc
[16:31]	Thomas Shikami: 	GPL isn't really suited for LSL scripts
[16:32]	Charlette Proto: 	music*
[16:32]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Let the people decide if it works or not.
[16:34]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I don't think a bitmask is a suitable construct for permissions systems. Too limited, and can't be extended. (And yeah, I'm dissing the Unix permissions scheme as well.)
[16:34]	Armin Weatherwax: 	and let the gpl (and alike) licences being virulent :D
[16:34]	Charlette Proto: 	the Real Life™ content (copyright etc) really could throw a spanner in the works if one was to think of having a permission system which could be valid in the ideal long term sense
[16:34]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Armin: I think you mean viral :-)
[16:35]	Armin Weatherwax: 	yes :)
[16:35]	Jacek Antonelli: 	It's terribly old fashioned, from the days when every byte was precious and not to be wasted
[16:35]	Charlette Proto: 	true jacek
[16:35]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Unless you picked up your copy somewhere really dodgy :P
[16:35]	Charlette Proto: 	but it works in CAD data/apps for a huge range of complicated things
[16:36]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yes, bitmasks and other rigid data structures work in systems with a controlling authority.
[16:37]	Charlette Proto: 	perhaps the permissions should be superceded by some kind of XML object definitions instead
[16:37]	Thomas Shikami: 	sorry, bbl
[16:37]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Well there are complex rights expression languages. The problem is, what's Joe Blogs going to make of them?
[16:37]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Complex languages can be made easy to use with a well thought-out interface. :)
[16:39]	Charlette Proto: 	asset schema for virtual transfer and commercial transactions
[16:39]	Charlette Proto: 	VTCT hehe
[16:39]	Armin Weatherwax: 	apropos complex languages and well thought-out interface and thomas just popping away ... emeralds preview version has a lua console
[16:40]	Morgaine Dinova: 	A good interface can certainly make it easier to use them. A complex semantic is still going to be complex though, even with a clean interface to front it. The *meaning* has to work in people's heads, else they won't be specifying what they think they are.
[16:40]	Charlette Proto: 	schema could easily define the meaning of various constructs i think
[16:41]	Jacek Antonelli: 	True, Morgaine, but that's still (IMO) a matter of UI usability. For example the current permission just says "Modify", "Copy", "Transfer", but doesn't explain what they mean. And even that simple system has trouble with people misunderstanding them, because of that poor UI.
[16:41]	Charlette Proto: 	Second Life™ is certainly not the only paradigm one would have to think of, but I think the issue is not in the impossible realm
[16:42]	Jacek Antonelli: 	On the other hand, Creative Commons has their one-page easy-to-read summaries of what you are allowed and not allowed to do, which makes even those complex permission systems fairly easy to understand.
[16:42]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek: I'd be curious if you can create a more meaningful interface to the same control bits. :-) LL would love you to death if you can :P
[16:42]	Charlette Proto: 	are you off geneko?
[16:43]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Maybeh. Was at the washroom and then talking about license changes of WikiFur somewhere else.
[16:44]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I'm picturing a permissions system which, when viewing permissions says: "You are allowed to... * Give or sell this item to other users. * Create copies of this item for your own use. .... You are not allowed to: * Modify this object's parameters. * Resell this object for a profit. ...."
[16:44]	Charlette Proto: 	?? washroom? you mean to say you had a pee by the trunk of a tree
[16:45]	Charlette Proto: 	still logging cause this is very interesting indeed, but I need to make coffee now
[16:45]	Armin Weatherwax: 	hm cc is easy to understand. often i read licenses which are not, and they are in english, what would no major problem if it was english, but its lawer, what i do not even understand in german
[16:45]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Pfft, Charlette. You are going to offend the furries, and then they will tear you apart and eat you.
[16:45]	Geneko Nemeth: 	What? You think I eat stuff in trash cans?
[16:45]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe sure Geneko, rabbits eat all veg they can find in the bin
[16:46]	Armin Weatherwax: 	lawyer*
[16:46]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Armin: Yes, lawyer language is awful
[16:46]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Waitwaitwaitwaitwait, what's with the rabbit?
[16:46]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Not enough meat on Charlette, we're actually eyeing up Jacek for dinner :P
[16:46]	Jacek Antonelli: 	! o_O
[16:46]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Do I look like one? >_>
[16:47]	Jacek Antonelli thinks Charlette is hopeless, and will offend people wherever she goes. ;)	Jacek Antonelli thinks Charlette is hopeless, and will offend people wherever she goes. ;)
[16:47]	Charlette Proto: 	my meat is too old to make anything but a broth
[16:47]	Armin Weatherwax: 	...follow the white rabbit ...
[16:47]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hehe
[16:47]	Charlette Proto: 	nooo I just have a crude sense of humour
[16:48]	Charlette Proto: 	yeah Geneko, you look like a rabbit crossed with a cat to me
[16:48]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I'm a raccoon and proud of it, damnit, if only because I don't know how to make avatars myself!
[16:48]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, let's wrap things up so people can go to Andrew's hour, or whatever. I'm going to try to send an email to SLUX to get input about rescheduling. I hate how the SLDev meeting is consistently eating up the first half of our current time
[16:48]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Cat ears are so hard... T_T
[16:48]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Very cute av, Gen
[16:49]	Charlette Proto: 	suppose I'm ignorant when it comes to the taxonomy of furr in Second Life™
[16:49]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I am thinking sometime in the afternoon on Saturdays. I don't think any Lindens hold office hours on the weekends, right?
[16:49]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Anyway... I don't really think CC's license screen is much better than SL's permissions... http://creativecommons.org/license/
[16:49]	Charlette Proto: 	yah, I'm off to make coffee, so C U all soon XOXO
[16:50]	Charlette Proto: 	no weekends are free at LL
[16:50]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek: yeah, would be good to have guard bands between OHs.
[16:50]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Cyu Charlette :-)
[16:50]	Charlette Proto: 	xoxo
[16:50]	Armin Weatherwax: 	ha. did i ever suggest to have a more europe friendly time? its almost 2 am here.
[16:51]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Geneko: Well, with CC you are just selecting from a few choices of license, not constructing a new complex scehme
[16:51]	Morgaine Dinova: 	This is the single worst thing about virtual worlds --- shatter sleep patterns.
[16:51]	Armin Weatherwax: 	and rl schedules
[16:51]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yes, we definitely need a more Euro-friendly time. I was thinking maybe 12:00 (noon) SLT saturday, or perhaps even earlier (10:00 maybe)
[16:52]	Geneko Nemeth: 	...
[16:52]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Although that wouldn't be so good for asian time
[16:52]	Armin Weatherwax: 	GOOD :)
[16:52]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Damn world, why can't it be flat so we are all in the same time zone?
[16:52]	Jacek Antonelli writes a petition to Obama to do something about that. 	Jacek Antonelli writes a petition to Obama to do something about that.
[16:53]	Morgaine Dinova: 	My cycles are all completely destroyed anyway, I'll probably make any time.
[16:53]	Armin Weatherwax: 	and sunshine flows like honey over the disc world ...
[16:53]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Waking up at 3am... ah... this summer would be nice...
[16:54]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Gen, what time zone are you in?
[16:54]	Geneko Nemeth: 	+8
[16:54]	Geneko Nemeth: 	For the summer.
[16:55]	Geneko Nemeth: 	When school starts it would be -5
[16:55]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Is that UTC+8, or SLT+8?
[16:55]	Geneko Nemeth: 	UTC+8
[16:55]	Jacek Antonelli: 	k
[16:55]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	See you all later. I'me off to ANdrew oh.
[16:55]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Me too
[16:55]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, take care everyone, see you next week