User Experience Interest Group/Transcripts/2010-03-18

== Topic ==
User Experience Interest Group Discussion for March 18, 2010.
Topic: Accessibility for users with disabilities.
== Summary ==
We discussed the current state of SL accessibility for users with disabilities, available tools and features that facilitate accessibility, and possible future enhancements.
We were joined by Esbee and Crimp Linden, who are both involved with accessibility at Linden Lab. They told us that they are aware that there are some accessibility problems with Viewer 2, but they plan to fix them as Viewer 2 progresses.
We identified a number of existing accessibility issues:
* Compared to previous versions of the viewer, Viewer 2 requires additional mouse clicks to access some features, which is problematic for users who have difficulty using the mouse.
* Many objects in SL have non-meaningful names ("Object"), which limits the usefulness of tools that identify or interact with objects by name, such as radar scripts.
* The viewer requires use of the mouse to perform some actions, such as interacting with objects in the world. This can restrict the user's ability to function in SL.
* Some features (e.g. Shared Media controls) require you to hover the mouse over something before the control will appear or become active, or which disappear when the mouse leaves the area, which makes it even more difficult for users without fine mouse control.
* There is no official support for transmitting closed captions, descriptive text that is displayed only to users who want it. For example, sound effect descriptions or voice transcripts.
* The standard SL viewer is not compatible with many screen readers.
We discussed existing tools and solutions for SL accessibility:
* Scripted objects such as Max the Virtual Guidedog, which can report the name and distance of nearby objects, or move the user to an object with a certain name, among other features.
* Radegast, a lightweight (non-graphical) metaverse client, which provides excellent accessibility for disabled users.
* Some users have developed a standard for scripts to broadcast descriptive text on a hidden chat channel. Combined with a matching attachment worn by users who wish to receive the text, this provides closed captioning.
We discussed ideas and plans for future improvement:
* Create a guide (on the SL wiki) describing "best practices" for content creators to help make their content more accessible (e.g. giving meaningful names and descriptions to objects).
* Provide a way for the user to interact with in-world objects without the mouse. For example, cycling through nearby interactive objects with the Tab key; or selecting objects from a list, as with Radegast's Nearby Objects UI
* Provide programming hooks or an interface for external applications to communicate with the viewer. For example, an application could receive chat information from the viewer and send it to a screen reader. ( or something similar could fulfill this need.)
* Provide a official support (an LSL function) for scripted objects to broadcast descriptive text for closed captioning, and for the viewer to optionally display that text.
* Allow keyboard shortcuts to be customized, so that users can choose simpler or more accessible shortcuts.
* Allow objects in the world to be marked by creators as "important" (or conversely, "unimportant"), to help prioritize the list of nearby objects.
== Links ==
* 
* Example using SNOW-375 with WGET
* Radegast (lightweight metaverse client)
* Radegast's Nearby Objects UI
* Max the Virtual Guidedog
== Transcript ==
[15:07]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yay, good attendance today!
[15:07]	Robin Cornelius: 	this thing hates me
[15:07]	Jizmo Teixeira: 	blood
[15:08]	Crimp Linden: 	robin: stand in the middle and try
[15:08]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Oh, Lindens, that's cool. Accessibility is an important topic, and (worth mentioning) good PR too.
[15:08]	Crimp Linden: 	not just any lindens, but the ones responsible for accessibility. :)
[15:08]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Huzzah :D
[15:09]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Great, Crimp + Esbee :-)
[15:09]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I'm hoping Iona over there can get a stable connection. She's the one who requested the topic, but today she's having trouble logging in :(
[15:10]	Pithlydawn Horowitz: 	hi, I work with Iona
[15:10]	Crimp Linden: 	ah, bummer
[15:10]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Uh oh
[15:10]	Pithlydawn Horowitz: 	hopefully if she can't make it, at least I'll be able to take notes for her
[15:10]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Pithly: Okay, cool
[15:10]	Esbee Linden: 	Cool
[15:10]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Well this region isn't helping, it keeps lagging chat. Time Dilation isn't too bad, but fluctuated within 0.9x
[15:11]	Crimp Linden: 	while we wait, perhaps esbee and i should intro ourselves and explain why we're here?
[15:11]	Opensource Obscure: 	cool
[15:11]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Please :-)
[15:11]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Sure, please do :)
[15:11]	Esbee Linden: 	Sounds good
[15:11]	Esbee Linden: 	I'm Esbee Linden, I've been with Linden Lab for almost a year and a half and I'm the Product Manager for the Viewer.
[15:12]	Dzonatas Sol: 	Hi!
[15:12]	Crimp Linden: 	I'm Crimp Linden. At LL for 6 months. I'm the exec director of the "platform" team, which includes Viewer and many of the "features" that you see in SL.
[15:13]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Great :) Welcome, both of you!
[15:13]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Nice to meet you both :-)
[15:13]	Esbee Linden: 	Thanks! Great to be here!
[15:13]	Crimp Linden: 	As you might imagine, we applaud the uses to which SL has been put to assist differently-abled persons.
[15:13]	Crimp Linden: 	And we're aware that we may have taken some steps backward with accessibility features in the new Viewer 2. So we're here to hear your complaints. :)
[15:13]	Latif Khalifa: 	hello
[15:14]	Esbee Linden: 	Absolutely, and want to ensure that we improve accessibility as we move forward with Viewer 2
[15:14]	Crimp Linden: 	We plan to rectify the issues in future Viewer 2 releases.
[15:14]	Latif Khalifa: 	hey Esbee
[15:14]	Latif Khalifa: 	Crimp
[15:14]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Aside from talking about regressions, feature suggestions for accessibility too I hope :-)
[15:14]	Esbee Linden: 	Complaints are good...so are ideas. :)
[15:15]	Crimp Linden: 	yeah, what she said. :)
[15:15]	Pithlydawn Horowitz: 	it would be great too if we could talk about what features *are* in place
[15:15]	Allen Kerensky: 	Personally, I'd like to see Shared Media honor the web proxy setting so I can anonymize my IP and not hand it to anyone with a shared media prim who wants it.
[15:15]	Pithlydawn Horowitz: 	and how well they are working
[15:15]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I'm glad to see Dzonatas is here too. I expect we'll be talking about her work on SNOW-375, which allows other programs to request information from the viewer. Useful for connecting the chat log to a text-to-speech app, for example.
[15:15]	Robin Cornelius: 	I've dragged Latif here as well, because of his work on Radagast Text client for SL
[15:15]	Thickbrick Sleaford: 	oh, wow, Lindens at the UXIG!
[15:15]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Pithly: good idea
[15:15]	Jacek Antonelli: 	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-375
[15:15]	Dzonatas Sol: 	=)
[15:15]	Allen Kerensky: 	And, personally, I'd like to limit the active content in the same way NoScript does for Firefox
[15:16]	Crimp Linden: 	allen: we're making some security improvements in an upcoming release to address that.
[15:16]	Crimp Linden: 	allen: that is, the anon ip issue.
[15:16]	Allen Kerensky: 	nod Crimp - being able to run over Tor isn't enough
[15:17]	Allen Kerensky: 	thanks for the note that its being looked into however
[15:17]	Crimp Linden: 	not just that. we're going to change the way cookies are used, etc.
[15:17]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Crimp: we heard from Edelman Linden a few days ago that in a beta or two, separate controls for Javascript and Flash execution are planned as well, which is a relief.
[15:17]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Mkay. With this many people, it's easy to slip into chaos, so let's all work to keep things organized and on the topic(s) at hand.
[15:18]	Crimp Linden: 	morgaine: yes. Edelman is on the platform team, and specifically focused on shared media.
[15:18]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Excellent
[15:18]	Robin Cornelius: 	is this going to mean a more customised llqtwebkit inorder to do these new features?
[15:18]	Robin Cornelius: 	i mean will you ned to make further qt changes to implement them
[15:19]	Latif Khalifa: 	Robin, now, it's a one call to webkit to enable/disable js and plugins
[15:19]	Crimp Linden: 	robin: i don't believe so, no. although we are considering changes to webkit for better volume controls.
[15:19]	Latif Khalifa: 	s/now/no
[15:20]	Crimp Linden: 	so.... accessibility
[15:20]	Latif Khalifa: 	depends how serious you want to tackle it, it's not easy :)
[15:20]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Let's put the shared media privacy things aside for now, and talk about some of the challenges disabled (or differently-abled) individuals face with using SL.
[15:21]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Then we can transition to the topic of available tools, and then ideas for future improvements. Sound good?
[15:21]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	One issue i've seen is the extra mouse clicks are causing some folk problems.
[15:21]	Latif Khalifa: 	but at least for the visually impaired it would be important to implement OS specific hooks
[15:21]	Esbee Linden: 	Perfect
[15:21]	Latif Khalifa: 	so that the blind could use their favorite screen reader apps
[15:21]	Latif Khalifa: 	there are alrady predefined apis (unfortunatelly as many things platform sepcific)
[15:21]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Well first of all, fine control of mice etc for mouseover is regarded as very bad on various ground, not just motor skills, but hand-eye coordination, and inability to see the state continuously.
[15:22]	Crimp Linden: 	techwolf: you mean that some UI elements have a different access method now (more mouse clicks)?
[15:22]	Pithlydawn Horowitz: 	is the guide dog project effective for the blind? I heard that one problem is that so many objects aren't labeled. so even if the guide dog or a screen reader could read SI, they wouldn't be able to identify things
[15:22]	Latif Khalifa: 	i think that would be th best way to get serious about making the viewer accessible, use the platform way to implement it in a standar way
[15:22]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Yep. But don't recall spific parts, this was a few weeks back.
[15:22]	Crimp Linden: 	latif: i have a lot of past experience with jaws, etc. most of the screenreaders don't handle custom controls well. :( we have a lot of work to do to help there.
[15:22]	Esbee Linden: 	Pithlydawn - That is a challenge with inworld content. IT's just like labeling images with ALT tags on a website.
[15:23]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Latif++ --- as Latif says, hook into the platform, don't reinvent.
[15:23]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Pithly: Indeed, probably 90% or more of the prims in SL are still named "Object", hehe
[15:23]	Esbee Linden: 	I think sharing best practices for Accessibility in SL for content creators would really help.
[15:23]	Pithlydawn Horowitz: 	Esbee - agreed
[15:23]	Esbee Linden: 	Labeling important objects.
[15:23]	Crimp Linden: 	esbee: i think our next release includes a tab-order pass?
[15:23]	Latif Khalifa: 	Crimp, windows implements OLE api that helps programs like jaws, you just implmeent 3 fields per controls, accessibility role, name and description
[15:24]	Latif Khalifa: 	similar api exists on os x
[15:24]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yes, some best practices and guidelines to help content creators would be a great resource. Perhaps a series of wiki pages?
[15:24]	Crimp Linden: 	latif: yes, have done that at past employers (rhapsody, etc.). just need to built it into our viewer 2 roadmap.
[15:24]	Dzonatas Sol: 	Headless viewer that interfaces to a tactile device
[15:24]	Esbee Linden: 	Crimp - The roadmap is still a bit in flux, but that's my request so far :)
[15:25]	Latif Khalifa: 	Crimp, I understand it's a non-trivial task to build in accessibility roles into the custom widget library
[15:25]	Esbee Linden: 	Jacek: Yeah, I've been talking to a lot of different groups about various best practices for various types of content in world. The wiki would be a great home for that since the community can also contribute
[15:25]	Jacek Antonelli: 	What are some of the other challenges users face? I know that the SL viewer is incredibly mouse-oriented, which can be problematic for many people.
[15:25]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Using the OS supplied widget liberay can help with accessablity issues.
[15:26]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek: fine control of mice etc for mouseover is regarded as very bad on various ground, not just motor skills, but hand-eye coordination, and inability to see the state continuously.
[15:26]	Pithlydawn Horowitz: 	do you have any user groups to test accessibility features?
[15:26]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Techwolf: That would entail redoing all of the UIs...
[15:26]	Crimp Linden: 	latif: to be clear, the work may be long/difficult, but we want to try to make progress on it with every release.
[15:26]	Esbee Linden: 	Absolutely.
[15:26]	Latif Khalifa: 	Crimp, good to hear
[15:27]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Morgaine: Indeed. Also things like being able to interact with objects in the world. The viewer doesn't have any way to "touch" something without using a mouse or other pointer device
[15:27]	Latif Khalifa: 	i work a lot with the blind users of sl, i think i understand the problems they're facing
[15:27]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek: good point.
[15:27]	Crimp Linden: 	on the mouse issue, we're making a "keyboard pass" in the next release to improve hot keys, tab order, etc.
[15:27]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek: suggestions?
[15:27]	Esbee Linden: 	Agreed, that's a great point. I wonder how we solve that.
[15:27]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Latif: Could you list a few of those issues? Things that haven't been mentioned yet?
[15:28]	Esbee Linden: 	Moving focus from the 2D UI to the 3D world and enabling interaction via the keyboard or other devvice.
[15:28]	Crimp Linden: 	need a way to make the IW view the "active view", so that tab key could cycle through objects (or similar)
[15:28]	Crimp Linden: 	esbee and i may be in different cities, but apparently we're sharing minds :)
[15:29]	Dzonatas Sol: 	To require every object labeled is a huge task that would be pushed on everybody
[15:29]	Latif Khalifa: 	for example in Radegast I implemented "nearby object list", that lists object names, and the actions you can perform on them, like sit, stand, etc
[15:29]	Esbee Linden: 	This is another case where it would be useful to be able to label an object "important" so that you don't have to tab through a few hundred objects that may comprise a build.
[15:29]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Remember that we're focusing right now on describing the challenges. We'll talk about solutions in a little while :)
[15:29]	Latif Khalifa: 	i know emerald has a similar nearby object list display
[15:29]	Esbee Linden: 	Perhaps those that have scripts embedded
[15:29]	Morgaine Dinova: 	In most MMO clients, there are keycommands for iterating through sets of like objects. For example, through monsters, through friends, through objects on ground, etc. Could something like that be added?
[15:29]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Perhaps only those that have touch scripts embedded or otherwise interactable.
[15:29]	Dzonatas Sol: 	What about snoar representations
[15:29]	Dzonatas Sol: 	sonar*
[15:29]	Crimp Linden: 	i like the "nearby objects" concept. it mirrors well to our "nearby people" and similar concepts in viewer 2.
[15:30]	Crimp Linden: 	morgaine: excellent suggestion. we should look to what's been done in WoW, etc.
[15:30]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Crimp, that would be good, but provide a command to iterate though them --- just a window is no good for accessibility
[15:30]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Having hooks into the voice client or sounds. Some folks hear by viberation devices.
[15:30]	Latif Khalifa: 	http://radegast.googlecode.com/svn/misc/snapshots/rad_screeshot_objects.png
[15:31]	Latif Khalifa: 	is how i implemented it in Radegast
[15:31]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Latif: Awesome :D
[15:31]	Latif Khalifa: 	re. nearby obejct list
[15:31]	Esbee Linden: 	cool
[15:31]	Armin Weatherwax: 	yes, but also "my" objects, also easyly get them in edit mode without having to find the visual representation
[15:31]	Crimp Linden: 	techwolf: good point about "ping" sounds
[15:32]	Crimp Linden: 	armin: do you mean your inventory contents? or objects IW?
[15:32]	Armin Weatherwax: 	no, objects in world or attached
[15:32]	Crimp Linden: 	other issues that we should be considering?
[15:33]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	While using the sound ouput of the sound card can do, having hook for sound events would be nicer and have much more simpler sound to phycial interface.
[15:33]	Pithlydawn Horowitz: 	is there anything like a closed captioning option?
[15:34]	Pithlydawn Horowitz: 	for people who use SL for classes and conferences, there needs to be a way to add closed captions without tying up the chat
[15:34]	Esbee Linden: 	That's interesting...it would be good across the board to trigger events on more Viewer/3D world interactions
[15:34]	Esbee Linden: 	Sounds, objects, Viewer UI, scripts
[15:34]	Dzonatas Sol: 	easier then to make the UI fully accessible when those features won't be all used
[15:34]	Crimp Linden: 	pithlydawn: what about using Shared Media to put a web page IW, that has the content being presented?
[15:35]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Crimp: the mouseover issue. Assessibility for media controls took a major step back on media controls, no longer being in sight all the time, requiring mouseover, and the coordination required by the dropdown pane to switch things on and off. Truly bad. Need to revert to something clear like the old one.
[15:35]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Regarding captioning: I have heard of some work by Residents to define a standard way for scripts to emit "extra information" about what's happening, such as a description of sound effects being played.
[15:35]	Jacek Antonelli: 	The information is transmitted over a hidden chat channel, then a user attachment picks it up and relays it to the user.
[15:36]	Jacek Antonelli: 	So only users wearing the attachment would "hear" it
[15:36]	Crimp Linden: 	jacek: cool application of tech
[15:36]	Dzonatas Sol: 	any sonar ability would require sound simulation off objects
[15:36]	Dzonatas Sol: 	client-side*
[15:36]	Crimp Linden: 	we do have a way now, under script control, to render "local" html on a Shared Media panel
[15:36]	Opensource Obscure: 	Crimp - sorry for delay - I see you earlier mentioned shortcuts - I point you to https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-2085 - if you're fixing shortcuts please don't forget that one
[15:36]	Crimp Linden: 	so scripts could give "extra info" in that way now.
[15:37]	Esbee Linden: 	Opensource - I'll note that Jira and follow up.
[15:37]	Boroondas Gupte: 	also, non-US keyboards
[15:38]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Need a way for end user to define the keyboard shortcuts. They are aften use for acceccpablity.
[15:38]	Techwolf Lupindo can't spell to day 	Techwolf Lupindo can't spell to day
[15:38]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Well shortcuts need to be redone wholesale, unfortunately. Any UI control should be configurable by the user to use any key or button or external event. It's even easy to support this, and it's been requested in the SL Forums since day 1, so not sure why it's not done.
[15:38]	Pithlydawn Horowitz: 	Crimp: (sorry, baby called!) that works for canned presentations, but doesn't pick up conversation, Q&A...
[15:39]	Latif Khalifa: 	i have to go, wish you good luck with adding these new features into the viewer
[15:39]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Aw, take care Latif
[15:39]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Cyu Latif
[15:39]	Esbee Linden: 	Keyboard shortcuts are on my radar. I'll continue to push this forward
[15:39]	Esbee Linden: 	Cya Latif!
[15:39]	Chantal Harvey: 	hello
[15:39]	Armin Weatherwax: 	Boroondas: non-US keyboards +1
[15:39]	Crimp Linden: 	pithlydawn: is there a system in place for capturing voice to text? otherwise, someone has to type the captions, which seems like it wouldn't happen often
[15:40]	Dzonatas Sol: 	In Eclipse, every action is mapped to a key, and can be remapped
[15:40]	Dzonatas Sol: 	just an idea
[15:40]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Esbee: it's not so much "keyboard" shortcuts, as allowing any UI event to be bound to an action. It's really easy to do too.
[15:40]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Dictation software could be quite expensive.
[15:40]	Pithlydawn Horowitz: 	Crimp: that's the issue with all synchronous platforms, and unfortunately there's not a good voice capture system yet
[15:40]	Pithlydawn Horowitz: 	but non-immersive environments like Elluminate, WebEx, etc. do provide a place where a trained captioner can add captions
[15:41]	Pithlydawn Horowitz: 	doesn't happen for individual use, but does for conferences and classes
[15:41]	Pithlydawn Horowitz: 	when they can afford to hire someone :)
[15:41]	Jacek Antonelli: 	For closed captioning about conversations, Q&A, etc. -- that's another area where that hidden script channel could be useful, at least allowing someone to type in the captions manually
[15:41]	Crimp Linden: 	makes sense. with Shared Media, just bring the webex panel IW. :)
[15:41]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Esbee: for accessibility, a user may have a special device installed in her system to generate UI events for all platform apps. In the configurator, just need to listen for the UI event, and bind it to the requested action.
[15:42]	Crimp Linden: 	other needs? esbee's capturing the chat log, so nothing will be missed.
[15:42]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I'll be putting up the transcript (and a summary, if I have time) on the wiki :)
[15:42]	Crimp Linden: 	thx, jacek!
[15:43]	Geneko Nemeth: 	can someone send me a transcript of the meeting up to now?
[15:43]	Esbee Linden: 	Morgaine: That makes sense. I can give some thought to how that would work in the Viewer UI.
[15:43]	Jacek Antonelli: 	(By the way, transcripts for UXIG meetings are always available here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User_Experience_Interest_Group/Transcripts )
[15:43]	Opensource Obscure: 	i'll do that geneko
[15:43]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Thanks!
[15:44]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Esbee: excellent. If looking for ideas, there's always the opensource-dev list you can ask too. It's a bit like herding cats, but also full of good ideas. And the AW Groupies group channel is always happy to stop arguing and focus on a question. :-)
[15:45]	Dzonatas Sol: 	SNOW-375 is a suggestion that could be used to export details of the scene, avatar, objects, inventory, to another program, via a script that does a http-get, and maybe just a simple speech synth
[15:45]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehe, I was just about to suggest you tell us about SNOW-375. Psychic :D
[15:45]	Dzonatas Sol: 	SNOW-375 is just the layer inbetween
[15:46]	Esbee Linden: 	Morgaine Thanks for the suggestions! I'll do both. I am on the opensource list, but more as a lurker :)
[15:46]	Esbee Linden: 	But I'll defnitely join AW Groupies.
[15:46]	Dzonatas Sol: 	for example with wget: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Dzonatas_Sol/SNOW-375_WGET
[15:47]	Dzonatas Sol: 	I'll add more examples in time, so I don't waste time in this hour
[15:47]	Esbee Linden takes a quick look at SNOW-375	Esbee Linden takes a quick look at SNOW-375
[15:47]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I know you've used SNOW-375 to create a separate program that looks and works like the Local Chat/IM windows, but split off from the main viewer window.
[15:48]	Dzonatas Sol: 	yes
[15:48]	Jacek Antonelli: 	And I saw your emails lately about other users. It sounds really neat :D
[15:48]	Jacek Antonelli: 	*other uses
[15:49]	Crimp Linden: 	we need to add a voice translation function :)
[15:49]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Portuguese it sounds like to me. But they sounded about 12
[15:49]	Dzonatas Sol: 	SNOW-375 provides the HTTP access to the viewer, so features can be added to extract more data rather than complex UI accessibility
[15:50]	Opensource Obscure: 	so you move viewer control to web interfaces ?
[15:50]	Dzonatas Sol: 	one could use HTTP to the viewer to extract the recent chat messages, and propagate them to a voice synth
[15:50]	Geneko Nemeth: 	HTTP isn't really designed for persistant connections...
[15:51]	Dzonatas Sol: 	I decided passive connections is best, yet allow a persistent connection for exta optional security
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli: 	It sounds like a very promising avenue for accessibility features
[15:53]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Crimp, Esbee, would you mind sharing some of the accessibility fixes/features that are on the table at LL?
[15:53]	Morgaine Dinova: 	That approach is fine for some use cases but not others. We have the same issue in VWRAP --- the REST protocol is fine for querying servers infrequently, but it's not intended nor suitable for obtaining information that is a continuous stream It turns into busy-waiting under those conditions, and has a tremendous overhead.
[15:54]	Boroondas Gupte: 	REST isn't a protocol
[15:54]	Dzonatas Sol: 	Morgaine, those should be optional approaches to handle such condition and shouldn't stop progress on data that can be made passive
[15:54]	Dzonatas Sol: 	conditions*
[15:55]	Esbee Linden: 	Jacek - I don't have any specifics on the actual roadmap just yet. We will be updating some general tab control and KB shortcut components. Crimp and I going to help shape our next steps for Accessibility. This is why we were excited to jump into this meeting today.
[15:55]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Bor: I know what REST is. In this discussion, "protocol" is close enough, unless you want me to go into tedious detail.
[15:55]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Ah, great :)
[15:55]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Morgaine: Please don't. ;)
[15:55]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Good :-)
[15:55]	Esbee Linden: 	:)
[15:55]	Crimp Linden: 	This will sound lame, but we were so busy finishing Viewer 2 so we could get the beta out and get feedback that we released it before any real accessibility work was done
[15:56]	Crimp Linden: 	the beauty of that method being that we get early, meaningful feedback from all of you on the beta, and don't waste time working on features that may not be important
[15:56]	Dzonatas Sol: 	thumbs up
[15:56]	Chantal Harvey: 	true
[15:57]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Sounds fair. Although people are not using it as beta at all.
[15:57]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I can definitely understand that sentiment. It's tough work releasing a viewer, and not enough time to do everything you'd like! I'm glad to hear it's on the roadmap, though
[15:57]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Login are off. Don't log out.
[15:57]	Chantal Harvey: 	ty
[15:58]	Morgaine Dinova: 	So, what other accessibility regressions are there in the beta?
[15:58]	Crimp Linden: 	techwolf: not following you. are you saying login is broken in sl right now?
[15:58]	Esbee Linden: 	We have a very long lists of things we'd like to do...but it's important to take the time to gather feedback.
[15:58]	Geneko Nemeth: 	crimp: for some residents. http://status.secondlifegrid.net/
[15:58]	Esbee Linden: 	So it's been nice to have this time to get back to more engagement again.
[15:58]	Geneko Nemeth: 	(Someone on my friends list just logged in ^^)
[15:58]	Jacek Antonelli: 	By the way, we're near the end of the hour. I'm happy to keep going after, of course. :)
[15:59]	Crimp Linden hates to hear about downtime 	Crimp Linden hates to hear about downtime
[15:59]	Geneko Nemeth: 	UXIG meetings tend to be rather drawn out unlike the UX office hour.
[15:59]	Dzonatas Sol: 	nice meet and ty for the time !!
[15:59]	Chantal Harvey: 	there were some things fixed in the new update, but not the ones i was hoping for, a personal thing of course
[15:59]	Crimp Linden: 	jacek: i'm sorry to say that i can't stay past 4pm
[15:59]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I spend so much time in SL live music events that the problems with the media controls hit me daily. For significantly disabled people, that could severely hamper events.
[15:59]	Crimp Linden: 	chantal: what did you want that's missing?
[15:59]	Esbee Linden: 	Me either. I have another meeting.
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Crimp: Aww, too bad. But it was really nice to have you and Esbee here for this :)
[16:00]	Esbee Linden: 	It was great to be here. I'm hoping to keep coming back as my schedule allows!
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yay! :D
[16:00]	Chantal Harvey: 	beeing able to turn off the ui, with control alt and f1 -
[16:00]	Crimp Linden: 	morgaine: understood completely, and audio controls definitely cleaned up in the next release.
[16:00]	Chantal Harvey: 	it now only does partial, so i cannot film in the viewer now at all
[16:00]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Crimp++
[16:00]	Chantal Harvey: 	i refuse to scale, as it kills my full HD option
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Dzonatas: Thank you so much for coming by, as well :)
[16:01]	Esbee Linden: 	Chantal..I know about that one. We've got a bug report for it.
[16:01]	Crimp Linden: 	esbee: can you pls check into chantal's ask? might be as simple as a missing keyboard shortcut.
[16:01]	Esbee Linden: 	Alrighty, I need to jump to my next meeting.
[16:01]	Chantal Harvey: 	and switching between viewers is a drama...
[16:01]	Dzonatas Sol: 	ty for the mention, jacek =)
[16:01]	Esbee Linden: 	Crimp - Will do!
[16:01]	Chantal Harvey: 	ty esbee
[16:01]	Chantal Harvey: 	;o)
[16:01]	Crimp Linden: 	lol, i can always count on esbee to be ahead of me. :)
[16:01]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Take care Esbee and Crimp! Thanks for coming!
[16:01]	Esbee Linden: 	Thanks so much everybody. See you soon!
[16:01]	Esbee Linden: 	Cheers!
[16:01]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Cyu Crimp, Esbee :-)
[16:02]	Opensource Obscure: 	bye !
[16:02]	Crimp Linden: 	our pleasure, jacek. we're both on sl-ux mailing list, so you'll probably see us again. :)
[16:02]	Opensource Obscure: 	ciao everybody
[16:02]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Cyu OO
[16:02]	Crimp Linden: 	and thx everyone for the great feedback and ideas.
[16:02]	Jacek Antonelli: 	We can wrap it up here, unless anyone has other accessibility-related things they'd like to talk about today?
[16:03]	Pithlydawn Horowitz: 	ty!
[16:03]	Pithlydawn Horowitz: 	ty!
[16:03]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, I think that's it, then :) Thanks for coming everyone!
[16:03]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Cheers Jacek
[16:03]	Chantal Harvey: 	ok ty jacek