Mesh/Archive/2012-07-30

==Agenda==
# When will mesh deformer be released and added to the official viewer? Beanster Potato 06:41, 30 July 2012 (PDT)
# Are arbitrary rigs still something that are being looked into for mesh implementation Jalynne Ohmai 11:41, 30 July 2012 (PDT)
# Can Linden comment on the status of various uploader improvements as discussed last week? Relevant JIRAs include: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-12214 , https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-29339 , https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-27954 Aki Shichiroji 11:58, 30 July 2012 (PDT)
# Can I have a better way to hide water, please please? Motor Loon
# Could be nice to be able to get avatars leg-length or hip-offset from ground, for scripting auto-adjusting poses Motor Loon
# I'd like ability to play an ATTACHED sound via another prim in the linkset? any problem with that? Motor Loon
# I'd like to be able to change the ALPHA level of a face/prim in my linkset, using llSetPrimitiveParams(fast) without having to specify the face's color too. This would be very useful for "animating mesh using faces" and such. Motor Loon
# Can I have a another cookie please? Motor Loon
# Can we implement a system that allows us to have pictures of our Outfits like the Avatar Selection? NiranV Dean
# Will anyone ever fix the shrunken convex hull bug? https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-28416 Drongle McMahon
==Meeting Notes==
==Attendees List==
*Adamburp Adamczyk (adamburp.adamczyk)
*Aki Shichiroji (aki.shichiroji)
*Al Blindside (al.blindside)
*beanster Potato (beanster.potato)
*Blueberryxx (blueberryxx)
*Braydon Randt (braydon.randt)
*dahlia1337 resident (dahlia.trimble)
*√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome)
*Drongle McMahon (drongle.mcmahon)
*Geenz Spad (geenz.spad)
*Gramma Fiddlesticks (gramma.fiddlesticks)
*Jalynne Ohmai (jalynne.ohmai)
*JIRA-helper (jira-helper)
*jr (jr4201.kruyschek)
*Œ∫Œµ…¥…ñ‡™∞Œª (kendra.zaurak)
*Kennylex Luckless (kennylex.luckless)
*Leviathan Flux (leviathan.flux)
*Lysandra (lysander.ashbourne)
*Motor Loon (motor.loon)
*Nal (nalates.urriah)
*Amethyst (niranv.dean)
*Nyx Linden (nyx.linden)
*Pamela Galli (pamela.galli)
*Prep Linden (prep.linden)
*Qie Niangao (qie.niangao)
*Rusalka Writer (rusalka.writer)
*Second Life (second.life)
*Tia Aquila (tia.biscuit)
*Tiberious Neruda (tiberious.neruda)
*Bazz Fazz (vir.linden)
*Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)
==Transcript for Monday July 30, 2012==
[12:03]	Nyx Linden 	agenda is here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group
[12:03]	Al Blindside 	I'm eating my supper on my lap - so no mic as I eat like a pig
[12:03]	Tia Aquila (tia.biscuit) 	Hey Tiberious :-)
[12:03]	Tiberious Neruda 	hi
[12:03]	Amethyst (niranv.dean) 	:O
[12:03]	Kennylex Luckless 	Border Ambleside is full of hys balls. For later work.
[12:03]	Rusalka Writer 	We never do the meetings in voice.
[12:03]	Amethyst (niranv.dean) 	wheres my pictured outfit!
[12:03]	Rusalka Writer 	Voice can't be recorded.
[12:03]	Amethyst (niranv.dean) 	i feel betrayed
[12:04]	Rusalka Writer 	Aloha, Vir.
[12:04]	Nyx Linden 	agenda is editable by anyone, feel free to add it
[12:04]	Amethyst (niranv.dean) 	uhm
[12:04]	Bazz Fazz (vir.linden) 	Hi all.
[12:04]	Amethyst (niranv.dean) 	"prior to 11:50 AM"
[12:04]	Al Blindside 	kk - one finger typing as I spray my keyboard with balsamic vinegar....
[12:05]	Al Blindside 	What's the mesh deformer?
[12:05]	Nyx Linden 	its fine, go ahead and add it. We'll get started in a second
[12:05]	Amethyst (niranv.dean) 	it deforms your meshes
[12:05]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	hi Vir
[12:05]	Amethyst (niranv.dean) 	ok
[12:05]	Leviathan Flux 	shapes rigged mesh to fit an av automaticallyt
[12:05]	Al Blindside 	That means I type duh
[12:12]	Second Life 	Teleport completed from http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/LindenWorld%20B/153/77/47
[12:12]	Amethyst (niranv.dean) 	last info i got was mesh deformer will have an off switch
[12:12]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Nyx, I wonder what the deformer will do to full rigged Mesh avatars? It will need an off switch, no?
[12:12]	Kennylex Luckless 	Hi Nyx x 2
[12:12]	Rusalka Writer 	Aha, Nyx returns.
[12:12]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	SL Aviation is complaining a lot because mesh aircrafts can`t cross from some sims to others, including in teh blake sea area
[12:12]	Jalynne Ohmai 	As far as I know, it's an opt in that you have to turn on
[12:12]	Aki Shichiroji 	wb Nyx
[12:12]	Tiberious Neruda 	I mean, I kinda like what RedPoly showed us that one meeting, much more than the deformer work I'd seen
[12:13]	Al Blindside 	A while back - sorry to dump on ya Nyx - there was talk of a meeting about 'MAV_BLOCK_MISSING' error -- any joy?
[12:13]	Pamela Galli 	The agenda always rejects my password but I wanted to repeat that we would like the last LOD to be able to be set to 0 triangles
[12:13]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	Nal: so the problem should be in theory fixed for teh end of the next week?
[12:13]	Motor Loon 	I get MAV_BLOCK when I try to upload physical models with errors in them
[12:13]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	jy: that problem will last until Pathfinding rolls out.
[12:13]	Motor Loon 	fix error... fix problem
[12:14]	Al Blindside 	Need info...... not cryptic messages?
[12:14]	Amethyst (niranv.dean) 	i smell a disconnect
[12:14]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	jr: it should be. At least them all regions will run the same Havok version.
[12:14]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	TY Nal
[12:14]	Nyx Linden 	alright sorry for the late start all, having issues with my machine today
[12:14]	Œ∫Œµ…¥…ñ‡™∞Œª (kendra.zaurak)	welcome back Nyx
[12:14]	Motor Loon 	but PF will not be rolled out next week... I dont belive that atleast
[12:15]	Nyx Linden 	topic 1: "When will mesh deformer be released and added to the official viewer? Beanster Potato 06:41, 30 July 2012 (PDT)"
[12:15]	Motor Loon 	Lorca said "within a month" ... and thats only if all goes well
[12:15]	Nyx Linden 	I don't have any update on the project myself, Oz is coordinating with Qarl on the deformer project, so he is more likely to have an updated status
[12:16]	Motor Loon 	yeah, I think they're still playing ping-pong with emails back and forth
[12:16]	Tiberious Neruda 	Nyx, will the solution RedPoly showed us a few weeks ago still be an option?
[12:16]	Al Blindside 	Is it like a 'shrink wrap to fit' module for clothes??
[12:16]	Leviathan Flux 	what about on the process redpoly was using, any updates on how to upload with that process?
[12:16]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Beanster: Listen to Metareality podcasts. Karl often dicusses the deformer there.
[12:16]	Motor Loon 	indeed what Nal said
[12:17]	Motor Loon 	also my fav part of friday... the podcast ¬∞Õú¬∞
[12:17]	beanster Potato 	will keep an eye on that as well, thanks nalates :-)
[12:17]	Nyx Linden 	RedPoly had two different options: one that works now but is *very* limited, and one that was a project proposal
[12:17]	Leviathan Flux 	did she ever detail her workflow for it?
[12:17]	Motor Loon 	white: Karl was there this friday
[12:18]	Tiberious Neruda 	Nyx, define "very limited"?
[12:18]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Nyx, I wonder what the deformer will do to full rigged Mesh avatars? It will need an off switch, no?
[12:18]	Nyx Linden 	binding to the current physics bones is indeed possible, but is unlikely to be a comprehensive solution, as it does not respond well to many types of avatar shape changes.
[12:18]	Tiberious Neruda 	ah
[12:19]	Leviathan Flux 	so it's about binding to the bones rather than the joints?
[12:19]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	You also might want to use that the make a customisable avatar. Then poof, you can't use it to fit clothes anymore.
[12:19]	Tiberious Neruda 	what about being able to actually edit the size of those collision bones?
[12:20]	Nyx Linden 	the suggestion was to create a new set of collision bones that actually do respond to avatar shape changes. That would be an entirely separate project.
[12:20]	Amethyst (niranv.dean) 	but sounds like the easiest way
[12:21]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	in the upload process of somethings like rigged clothes or others we could have some options that then we could run different things like different bones
[12:21]	Motor Loon 	easy way is not always the best way
[12:21]	Leviathan Flux 	yes but whatever she is doing now seems to work pretty well, I was hoping to know what software she was doing it with and how, I dont see why not use something that is already working better than anything else now
[12:21]	Nyx Linden 	it sounds simple, but its not :)
[12:21]	Tiberious Neruda 	I mean, if you turn on "Show Collision Skeleton" and look at, for example, my av... it's ugly, and causes the camera to go a bit nuts when trying to zoom on me
[12:22]	Amethyst (niranv.dean) 	mh
[12:22]	Amethyst (niranv.dean) 	where does it go nuts?
[12:22]	Blueberryxx 	I'm going to have to agree with Leviathan.
[12:22]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	i think the old standard SL skirts still work better than the new mesh ones, lol
[12:22]	Motor Loon 	Forget it Tib... mesh deformer won't make that pretty little pink dress you want look good on you anyway...
[12:23]	Amethyst (niranv.dean) 	hahaha
[12:23]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	so later on i will still ask to an option of rezz teh jackets bottom part over the skirts too
[12:23]	Al Blindside 	Personally I'd like to see some mesh tools appearing in the drop down menus up top......
[12:23]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	as for teh pants
[12:23]	Amethyst (niranv.dean) 	pants?
[12:23]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	yes
[12:23]	Amethyst (niranv.dean) 	who needs pants?
[12:23]	Amethyst (niranv.dean) 	^^
[12:23]	Leviathan Flux 	I feel like we are getting off topic
[12:23]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	teh bottoms of teh jackets rezz over the pants layers
[12:23]	Tiberious Neruda 	what I'm trying to say is... making a smaller-than-'normal' av using mesh causes camera focus issues
[12:24]	Motor Loon 	Ey Prep
[12:24]	Nyx Linden 	so are we ready to move to the second topic?
[12:24]	Leviathan Flux 	no
[12:24]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	and i would like to have that option too for teh jackets over the skirts
[12:24]	Prep Linden 	yo motor and all!
[12:24]	Aki Shichiroji 	hi Prep
[12:24]	Rusalka Writer 	Aloha!
[12:24]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	hi Prep
[12:24]	Amethyst (niranv.dean) 	Hi Prep
[12:24]	Leviathan Flux 	I would really appreciate some more insight into the redpoly method as there is no end date in sight forqarl's deformer
[12:24]	Tiberious Neruda 	and I've seen larger avs cause the camera to 'miss' because the 'collision bones' float out away from each other
[12:25]	Leviathan Flux 	for qarls*
[12:25]	Motor Loon 	there's no end date in sight for the redpoly method either Levithan ¬∞Õú¬∞
[12:25]	Leviathan Flux 	it already works
[12:25]	Nyx Linden 	RedPoly was adding weighting information that bound the mesh to the collision skeleton as opposed to the avatar's skeleton. A small number of parameter changes will affect those bones. I don't have a guide as to the tools involved.
[12:26]	Leviathan Flux 	ok thank you nyx I will look into that
[12:26]	Motor Loon 	"works" is often a matter of personal opinion.
[12:26]	Leviathan Flux 	it works
[12:26]	Leviathan Flux 	works better than anything else
[12:26]	Motor Loon 	I'm sure LL will look at either and select what THEY belive to be the best method when it comes to it
[12:26]	Nyx Linden 	I am skeptical that the results will be worth the effort as a general-purpose solution, though very specifically crafted pieces may appear to work for certain shapes.
[12:27]	Aki Shichiroji 	in that one specific case. Even Redpoly admits it's not suitable in some use cases.
[12:27]	Blueberryxx 	It does work, I purchased her jacket and tried adjusting my shape with the jacket on me and the jacket would adjust to my shape.
[12:27]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Gaia Clary is working on an interface for easy rigging with this for Avastar.
[12:27]	beanster Potato 	qarls mesh deformer work as well, for the most part
[12:28]	Leviathan Flux 	I don't need a perfect solution that works for everyone's extreme shape sizes, just something that will deform clothing well at least, better than nothing
[12:28]	Blueberryxx 	I think Qarl's mesh deformer is already implemented on Cool VL Viewer. I haven't tested it yet.
[12:28]	Nyx Linden 	more that redpoly's method will work for certain types of avatar shape adjustments (height, etc), but not others
[12:28]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Can you stack it, in layers, with the deformer?
[12:28]	Geenz Spad 	both mostly function, it just really depends on what you need and what workflow compromises you're willing to take
[12:28]	Gramma Fiddlesticks 	/me wants some kind of option for clothign where alpha stuff is NOT required.!
[12:29]	Al Blindside 	If I may-- there's more to building than clothes and avis ---- any chance of temp uploads or bringing back the copy of position size and rotation params for V3 for those of us who still like to build in world?
[12:29]	Tiberious Neruda 	the other thing I like more about the RedPoly mthod is that it appears to work base don weight paints
[12:29]	Geenz Spad 	Qarl's: model around ruth, and hope that some things don't come out looking squished or what have you
[12:29]	Motor Loon 	Probably utopia Gramma
[12:29]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	Gramma: i think that depends a lot of the number of polys used
[12:29]	Tiberious Neruda 	and you can customize things to be as you want them
[12:29]	Geenz Spad 	RedPoly's: see Nyx's comments, also that's a lot of bones to rig D:
[12:30]	Tiberious Neruda 	Geenz... you wouldn't complain if we got finger bones, would you?
[12:30]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	if the rigged mesh clothes have teh right edge loops compared to teh the ones of the Avatar than they will deform much closer
[12:30]	Tiberious Neruda 	and that's another 30 bones
[12:30]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	with teh animations, i mean
[12:30]	Gramma Fiddlesticks 	it's taken me 5 years to get Gramma like she is. I sure don't wanna have to change her shape to wear clothing. =)
[12:30]	beanster Potato 	rught and default sl avatar are'nt the same? i thought we were suppose to use the default avatar with deformer
[12:30]	beanster Potato 	*ruth
[12:30]	Nyx Linden 	so currently the only project in this space under way is the deformer project and I do not have an update for it, I would ask Oz for the current status.
[12:30]	Amethyst (niranv.dean) 	instead of finger bones we need tail bones
[12:30]	Amethyst (niranv.dean) 	now.
[12:31]	Tiberious Neruda 	I agree
[12:31]	Geenz Spad 	Tiberious: I wouldn't complain much, but that's 30 bones vs. I think last count was 70-something?
[12:31]	Leviathan Flux 	the next topic is arbitrary rigs?
[12:31]	Nyx Linden 	mind if I move on to the next topic so we can get through the agenda?
[12:31]	Motor Loon 	I dont want a tail...
[12:31]	Jalynne Ohmai 	the last I heard on that project there would be options for extreme shapes to work with the standard sizing initiative as well as with the default av
[12:31]	Tiberious Neruda 	I'd LOVE a chain of 'flexibones' we can use
[12:31]	Leviathan Flux 	please to nyx
[12:31]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Loon, you can use it to rig your penis.
[12:31]	Leviathan Flux 	do*
[12:31]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	yeah, move along Nyx
[12:31]	Motor Loon 	hehe go on already Nyx, they wont stop ¬∞Õú¬∞
[12:31]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "Are arbitrary rigs still something that are being looked into for mesh implementation Jalynne Ohmai 11:41, 30 July 2012 (PDT)"
[12:31]	Leviathan Flux 	im guessing that will be LONG time
[12:32]	Nyx Linden 	it is a feature we would like to have but are not actively working on.
[12:32]	Leviathan Flux 	but in the plans nonetheless
[12:32]	Motor Loon 	in "the box of ideas we like"
[12:32]	Rusalka Writer 	We need a Wiki where the frequently asked questions can have updated answers.
[12:32]	Nyx Linden 	it is a rather big box :)
[12:32]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	I think that might come about sooner than later, you know, since the competitors have it.
[12:32]	Jalynne Ohmai 	So it's definitely still in the we want to do this box LOL
[12:32]	Lysandra (lysander.ashbourne) 	someone should update the sl wiki
[12:32]	Aki Shichiroji 	well... we have a Wiki, with archived transcripts. people don't read it :P
[12:33]	Motor Loon 	Good thing we'll be in Second Life‚Ñ¢ in 10 years too eh
[12:33]	Rusalka Writer 	I promise to ask for a Pony there if we do.
[12:33]	Leviathan Flux 	ok so next topic haha
[12:33]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "Can Linden comment on the status of various uploader improvements as discussed last week? Relevant JIRAs include: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-12214 , https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-29339 , https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-27954 Aki Shichiroji 11:58, 30 July 2012 (PDT)"
[12:34]	JIRA-helper 	[#VWR-12214] change background colot in upload preview tool - Second Life Bug Tracker
[12:34]	JIRA-helper 	[#VWR-29339] Add floor to all upload previews to allow users to offset heights more accurately and efficiently - Second Life Bug Tracker
[12:34]	JIRA-helper 	[#VWR-27954] Mesh Upload Window is not resizable - Second Life Bug Tracker
[12:34]	Leviathan Flux 	I like some of those ideas
[12:34]	Motor Loon 	way to overload the poor jira helper
[12:34]	Leviathan Flux 	like being able ot change the size of the upload window
[12:34]	Rusalka Writer 	I like all of those ideas.
[12:34]	Prep Linden 	I have the code finished for VWR-29339...just some more testing. I've also fixed the issue where
[12:34]	Drongle McMahon 	What's a colot?
[12:34]	Leviathan Flux 	would also be nice to be able to rotate the model in other directions in the preview
[12:34]	Aki Shichiroji 	oooh sweet - thanks Prep!
[12:34]	Motor Loon 	Bravo Prep!
[12:34]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	oh! JIRA, my 5 years long Landlord is still banned from JIRA, the poor creature
[12:35]	Leviathan Flux 	cool
[12:35]	Rusalka Writer 	Loves me some floor.
[12:35]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	congrats, Prep
[12:35]	Motor Loon 	floors are nice and comfy
[12:35]	Nyx Linden 	I'm also working with Oz to identify other issues in this space that might be useful to work on in the future, so please do keep gathering these together.
[12:35]	Rusalka Writer 	Nice for an avatar standing on pointe.
[12:36]	Drongle McMahon 	What space is that Nyx?
[12:36]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	The Mesh upload space?
[12:36]	Tiberious Neruda 	uploader improvements, I think
[12:37]	Drongle McMahon 	Offset pivots then.
[12:37]	Motor Loon 	I'd love real offset pivots
[12:37]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Oh yes. We need those.
[12:37]	Nyx Linden 	uploader improvments is what I'm referring to specifically
[12:37]	Motor Loon 	instead of the invisible-triangle-hack crap we have to do now
[12:37]	Jalynne Ohmai 	mmm real offset pivots
[12:37]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	If nothing else so that LODs and collision shapes align correctly.
[12:37]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	could my 5 years long Landlord Prokofy Neva be unbanned by JIRA without Soft Linden block that? teh poor guy is constantely harrassed by griefers and needs to access JIRA, atm because of teh group tags bug, he is being banned from his land even
[12:37]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	lol
[12:38]	Lysandra (lysander.ashbourne) 	poor guy
[12:38]	Aki Shichiroji 	‚óï‚Äø‚óï
[12:38]	Drongle McMahon 	Bring back nice pastel coloured hulls in physics preview.
[12:38]	Al Blindside 	I'd love to see a WIKI explaining the cryptic messages and obscure settings of the mesh upload screen...... call me old fashioned
[12:38]	Rusalka Writer 	Not so much a problem for the mesh group, though.
[12:38]	Gramma Fiddlesticks 	/me would love to see a wiki explaing the whole upload window!
[12:38]	Al Blindside 	^^^^^
[12:38]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	yeah! that Soft Linden blocking him from JIRA will give him som apoplexy or worse
[12:38]	Leviathan Flux 	which part?
[12:39]	Nyx Linden 	please do forward these suggestions on to me - best format is with a filed jira and email me the number
[12:39]	Drongle McMahon 	Ah yes ... informative error messages!
[12:39]	Rusalka Writer 	See your console!
[12:39]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	besides we own a lot to Prokofy because of his fights against copybotters, grieffers and so
[12:39]	Gramma Fiddlesticks 	it's tough to teach a class on uploading mesh when you don't know for 100$ certain what some of the things on the upload model window do.
[12:40]	Nyx Linden 	If you can send in crash reports, that always helps - also if you can reproduce a crash please do file a JIRA
[12:40]	Prep Linden 	white rabbit: you got a repro case?
[12:40]	Gramma Fiddlesticks 	100%
[12:40]	Tiberious Neruda 	I wouldn't mind seeing a change in how mesh objects are highlighted when selected
[12:40]	Leviathan Flux 	I would like to see some sort of limitations for uploading like max number of faces
[12:40]	Motor Loon 	I was gonna say thats some mightly expensive mesh you upload Gramma
[12:40]	Rusalka Writer 	I crashed the development viewer a lot at the RFL, but never got a crash report window.
[12:40]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "Can I have a better way to hide water, please please? Motor Loon"
[12:40]	Tiberious Neruda 	for some reason, the highlight tries to go along every triangle
[12:40]	Gramma Fiddlesticks 	*grins Loon
[12:40]	Leviathan Flux 	hide water?
[12:41]	Amethyst (niranv.dean) 	Invisprims
[12:41]	Motor Loon 	yes please
[12:41]	Qie Niangao 	yes
[12:41]	beanster Potato 	raise land
[12:41]	Aki Shichiroji 	invisiprims are broken with deferred rendering.
[12:41]	Rusalka Writer 	Water is an expensive render.
[12:41]	Motor Loon 	something that WORKS with deferred rendering
[12:41]	Amethyst (niranv.dean) 	not broken
[12:41]	Rusalka Writer 	Kills FPS.
[12:41]	Amethyst (niranv.dean) 	they are not supported on purpose
[12:41]	Motor Loon 	anything that works with deferred rendering will do
[12:41]	Leviathan Flux 	you mean like cntrl+alt+shift+7?
[12:41]	Amethyst (niranv.dean) 	because they occlude alot of effects
[12:41]	Aki Shichiroji 	well the fact remains there is a difference in experience betwen people running deferred rendering and those not.
[12:41]	Qie Niangao 	fine, but we still need a way to make a hole in water... preferably better than invisiprims ever worked.
[12:42]	Tiberious Neruda 	if you break invisiprims, can we have transparent and shiny at the same time?
[12:42]	Nyx Linden 	Is there a jira issue for this request?
[12:42]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	Motor`s problem is for people inside boats which have a cabin under the water line, without what he is asking we can`t bring to SL boats models with realistic proportions, so it can`t hide avatars too
[12:42]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Would be nice for subs and tunnels.
[12:42]	Motor Loon 	I need to be able to hide water inside a hull of a sailboat (for example) ... dont care how... aslong as it works ¬∞Õú¬∞
[12:42]	Leviathan Flux 	ohhh
[12:42]	Leviathan Flux 	ok yeah that would be cool
[12:42]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	+1
[12:43]	Aki Shichiroji 	drydocks also benefit... but also if sim designers want to create a difference in water height, they can't do that below the actual set water line.
[12:43]	Tiberious Neruda 	this is really the only effect those are needed for now, so if we could make transparent items shiny, invisiprims can be 'safely' broken for good
[12:43]	Motor Loon 	I could even live with the crappy invisi prims... but they have zero effect under deferred rendering
[12:43]	Amethyst (niranv.dean) 	because they are disabled
[12:43]	Amethyst (niranv.dean) 	they were fixed by runatai long ago
[12:43]	Geenz Spad 	isn't there some mask that gets sent from the server that used to be (still is?) used to mask water around shorelines?
[12:43]	Amethyst (niranv.dean) 	but later on disabled again
[12:43]	Aki Shichiroji 	hell. i would live with an animated gif via html on a prim if i could garantee the experience was the same across viewers. but i can't.
[12:43]	Nyx Linden 	If there is a feature request filed I can get it into the hands of the right people to consider for prioritization
[12:44]	Aki Shichiroji 	(to create different heights for water)
[12:44]	Tiberious Neruda 	(I say safely because while there might be old content that uses it, there's ways to achieve the same results with actual features)
[12:44]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Invisiprims have, other uses, that I don't want to get into.
[12:45]	Gramma Fiddlesticks 	/me has old shoes that still use them. =x
[12:45]	Qie Niangao 	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-16671 is *relevant*, but not quite what we need most urgently
[12:45]	JIRA-helper 	[#VWR-16671] SL Water prim and Anti-water prim. - Second Life Bug Tracker
[12:45]	Amethyst (niranv.dean) 	occluding mesh , alpha , water , sky , glow , reflections , body , ssao , they receive and throw shadows
[12:45]	Nyx Linden 	Motor - please file a jira if one does not exist and pass me the link
[12:45]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "Could be nice to be able to get avatars leg-length or hip-offset from ground, for scripting auto-adjusting poses Motor Loon"
[12:45]	Aki Shichiroji 	i think that JIRA is very relevant and would work within the scope of what Motor's asking for.
[12:46]	Nyx Linden 	so you'd like an LSL function to get those values?
[12:46]	Motor Loon 	will do Nyx
[12:46]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Would revolutionize the sex bed business too.
[12:46]	Amethyst (niranv.dean) 	xD
[12:46]	Gramma Fiddlesticks 	=x
[12:46]	Rusalka Writer 	Never could get Z-offset to work and they closed my jira. : (
[12:46]	Aki Shichiroji 	adjusting poses for height would be awesome for those who make odd-sized avs.
[12:46]	Rusalka Writer 	Had to re-work this avatar.
[12:47]	Prep Linden 	rusalka: jira #?
[12:47]	Motor Loon 	ok, this next requests may need an example... currently I can get the boundingbox size of an avatar... if I divide by around half, I get the approx. place of the hip... and I can use that to align poses to fit all sizes... but it's pretty inaccurate
[12:47]	Rusalka Writer 	Heaven only knows. It was probably eighteen months ago.
[12:47]	Rusalka Writer 	I'll hunt.
[12:47]	Motor Loon 	..so I'd like to be able to get THE REAL hip position, or rather the offset from the ground to the hip... in my scripts for this usage
[12:47]	Nyx Linden 	I'd bring this up at the scripting usergroup: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Server/Sim/Scripting_User_Group
[12:47]	Lysandra (lysander.ashbourne) 	permission to paste a few lines that may or may not have some to do with this?
[12:48]	Rusalka Writer 	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SH-2258
[12:48]	Lysandra (lysander.ashbourne) 	code i mean
[12:48]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	The scripting group is dead.
[12:48]	Qie Niangao 	no such user group anymore, btw. but the server dev group still works.
[12:48]	Rusalka Writer 	Ah, only a year ago.
[12:48]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Simulator has taken over the scripting part I believe.
[12:48]	Motor Loon 	yes
[12:49]	Motor Loon 	but ok, Ill bring it up at one of the other UG's
[12:49]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Kelly is at Andrew & SImon's meetings. No more Kelly group.
[12:49]	Nyx Linden 	It will be more likely to happen once we are generating avatar appearances on the servers, so it might take a little while.
[12:50]	Motor Loon 	guess my next # is the same then... and next mabye....
[12:50]	Motor Loon 	or?
[12:50]	Nyx Linden 	6 and 7 sound like scripting/simulator topics ideally
[12:50]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	/me gives motor a tracking cookie.
[12:51]	Motor Loon 	mmmm cookies...
[12:52]	Nyx Linden 	topic 8: cookies!
[12:52]	Œ∫Œµ…¥…ñ‡™∞Œª (kendra.zaurak)	Nyx, when we will be able to upload a mesh with the textures?
[12:52]	Lysandra (lysander.ashbourne) 	Mmmm!
[12:52]	Motor Loon 	thank you Nyx ¬∞Õú¬∞
[12:52]	Motor Loon 	Ill save it for after dinner... like mom always told me
[12:52]	Gramma Fiddlesticks 	chocolate chip or peanut butter cookies Nyx?
[12:52]	Motor Loon 	I'm a good boy... yes i am...
[12:52]	Rusalka Writer 	We used to have tx upload.
[12:53]	Leviathan Flux 	moving on...
[12:53]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "Can we implement a system that allows us to have pictures of our Outfits like the Avatar Selection? NiranV Dean" (also for reference, chocolate chip)
[12:53]	dahlia1337 resident (dahlia.trimble) 	Bear shaped cookies!!!
[12:53]	Gramma Fiddlesticks 	*grins
[12:53]	Motor Loon 	That woulds be very coolness Niran
[12:54]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	That would be neat.
[12:54]	Gramma Fiddlesticks 	/me digs out bag of choclate chips and prepares to bake!
[12:54]	Nyx Linden 	its a good suggestion and one we've considered in the past - the main challenges are 1) generation of the images and 2) storage of the images
[12:54]	Motor Loon 	but how would they be generated?
[12:54]	Amethyst (niranv.dean) 	1) you can do them on your own
[12:54]	Aki Shichiroji 	/me would settle for an image slot.
[12:54]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Wait, that would mean thered be pictures of my naked outfits. I might be against this. XD
[12:54]	Amethyst (niranv.dean) 	you can put a snapshot of your outfit into your outfit folder
[12:54]	Lysandra (lysander.ashbourne) 	/me would settle for screenshot or image shot too
[12:54]	Amethyst (niranv.dean) 	the viewer will search for a texture in each folder and display it if avaikable
[12:54]	Motor Loon 	an image slot using an self uploaded texture should be easy to put in eh?
[12:54]	Lysandra (lysander.ashbourne) 	hmm, to much effort!
[12:54]	Amethyst (niranv.dean) 	available
[12:55]	Amethyst (niranv.dean) 	no
[12:55]	Amethyst (niranv.dean) 	should be really easy and quick to implement
[12:55]	Aki Shichiroji 	a lot of people do this already to keep their inventory sorted
[12:55]	Aki Shichiroji 	but it's not integrated with the outfit system :(
[12:55]	Motor Loon 	/me hides his inventory
[12:55]	Amethyst (niranv.dean) 	yea but it doesnt display in the outfit menu
[12:55]	Gramma Fiddlesticks 	/me wants free texture uploads! =x
[12:55]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Isn'
[12:55]	Nyx Linden 	sounds feasible though
[12:55]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	t
[12:55]	Lysandra (lysander.ashbourne) 	i can get behind free texture uploads!
[12:56]	Motor Loon 	Could be all local
[12:56]	Amethyst (niranv.dean) 	well
[12:56]	Tiberious Neruda 	oh...!
[12:56]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Isn't this one of those viewr features we could ask third party viewer developers for?
[12:56]	Amethyst (niranv.dean) 	yea
[12:56]	Motor Loon 	nobody else needs to see your outfit picture
[12:56]	Tiberious Neruda 	I'd LOVE to see some way we can preview, even if locally, mesh uploads
[12:56]	Œ∫Œµ…¥…ñ‡™∞Œª (kendra.zaurak)	[12:52] Kendra Zaurak: Nyx, when we will be able to upload a mesh with the textures?
[12:56]	Aki Shichiroji 	yes, but what happens if you need to pop over to another comp?
[12:56]	Gramma Fiddlesticks 	make them free for premium accoutns then.
[12:56]	Amethyst (niranv.dean) 	i think putting them into the outfit folder would be the best
[12:56]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	lol
[12:56]	Motor Loon 	Any reason why you cant just put it in the Niran viewer now Niran?
[12:56]	Amethyst (niranv.dean) 	do a texture selector like in build panel
[12:56]	Nyx Linden 	yep! third party developers could potentially implement this. I'd want to sync up with anyone who wants to implement it, but it shouldn't require a linden project
[12:57]	Aki Shichiroji 	Kendra: there's an agenda for questions; if you log in to the Wiki, you can edit this page to add your question: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group
[12:57]	Braydon Randt 	hey you get your 300 a week for free premium accounts :P
[12:57]	Amethyst (niranv.dean) 	and then let the user select a texture out of his inventory
[12:57]	Tiberious Neruda 	I use beta grid, but what happens when it's down for an extended period of time?
[12:57]	Geenz Spad 	if only I didn't have enough to do already :P
[12:57]	Gramma Fiddlesticks 	/me has been premium all her life here!
[12:57]	Amethyst (niranv.dean) 	the UI part is easy , the coding behind it , reading the outfit folder is something i think i wont get to run
[12:57]	Nyx Linden 	if the beta grid is down for an extended period of time, we scramble to fix it :)
[12:58]	Leviathan Flux 	is there no room in this meeting to answer new questions or just ones previously submitted
[12:58]	Motor Loon 	arrh Geenz... you watch too much TV from the couch now anyway... get on it ¬∞Õú¬∞
[12:58]	Nyx Linden 	I can stay a couple extra minutes since we got started late, though the other lindens may have to take off - so add more topics if you have them
[12:58]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	After the agenda is done, maybe? If there is time?
[12:58]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Flux: Agenda questions get first priority.
[12:58]	dahlia1337 resident (dahlia.trimble) 	I can never log in to the beta grid if the region I was in is down and I have "last location" selected
[12:59]	dahlia1337 resident (dahlia.trimble) 	it acts like the whole grid is down
[12:59]	Leviathan Flux 	I normally cant make it to this time for the meetings and was able to finally today so this is pretty disapptointing just going over stuff that mostly dont have answers
[12:59]	Motor Loon 	so dont select Last locatioin ?
[12:59]	Aki Shichiroji 	i usually just try logging in from one of the known regions, like Ahern or Dore
[12:59]	Nyx Linden 	Amethyst - please create a jira for the feature request
[12:59]	Aki Shichiroji 	(for beta grid)
[12:59]	Amethyst (niranv.dean) 	ok
[12:59]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	no info hubs for beta grid?
[12:59]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Daliha: try logging into MOrris or PathTest1 if your last location is down.
[12:59]	Motor Loon 	err not PathTest1
[12:59]	dahlia1337 resident (dahlia.trimble) 	pathtest1 is usually always down
[12:59]	Motor Loon 	thats like always down
[12:59]	Motor Loon 	yeah
[13:00]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "Will anyone ever fix the shrunken convex hull bug? https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-28416 Drongle McMahon"
[13:00]	JIRA-helper 	[#VWR-28416] Mesh: Default convex hull is smaller than it should be. - Second Life Bug Tracker
[13:00]	Aki Shichiroji 	is that like the default hull the uploader comes up with if you don't set a specific file or LOD?
[13:01]	Drongle McMahon 	Yes
[13:01]	Aki Shichiroji 	ah ok.
[13:01]	Motor Loon 	this is not put in on purpose to fix the 10cm gap thing is it?
[13:01]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	lol
[13:01]	Nyx Linden 	that is with going through the decomposition process with default parameters, or doing no decomp?
[13:02]	Drongle McMahon 	Neither - it's the default hull you get when you select Convex hull physics shape type, whether you make a physics shape or not.
[13:02]	Lysandra (lysander.ashbourne) 	prep linden... you look so... ergonomic
[13:02]	Motor Loon 	lol
[13:02]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	i like Prep`s look
[13:03]	Al Blindside 	If the preview window wasn't so small we might evem see the gap......
[13:03]	Lysandra (lysander.ashbourne) 	i was wondering where i could buy that outfit...
[13:03]	Nyx Linden 	Drongle - ok. currently the bug is sitting on the backlog, I don't think its a high priority - is there a piece of content that is particularly broken by this bug?
[13:03]	Drongle McMahon 	You can see the shrinkage in physics shape view, and you can walk into the edges of a large mesh.
[13:04]	Tiberious Neruda 	Yuzuru's roads?
[13:04]	Nyx Linden 	right, I can see the bug, I'm wondering if you have an example piece of content that shows why its a big issue.
[13:04]	Drongle McMahon 	Yes ... it was the roads that made me think of it. Any content using Convex hull shape type is affected.
[13:05]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	I think it was changed when mesh object was moved.
[13:05]	Drongle McMahon 	Well, I work around it by making a physics shape. It's people w
[13:05]	Drongle McMahon 	ho don't know thyat who get caught.
[13:05]	Motor Loon 	so, when they fix it now - your workaround-objects will break then ¬∞Õú¬∞
[13:05]	Aki Shichiroji 	i experience that a bit with some of my terrain pieces, but mostly because I'm being lazy and not uploading a physics LOD. Once i'm done with getting the placement right, i usually go back to add one though.
[13:06]	Nyx Linden 	ok, I'll mention it internally.
[13:06]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	or coped from rezzed prim.
[13:06]	Aki Shichiroji 	making a physics shape is really relatively easy if you already know how to model and cut down on faces...
[13:06]	Drongle McMahon 	No - they will be fine. Suppliedc shapes are not affected.
[13:06]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Why use Convex Hull on a road? Feels like it makes more sense to make a simplified physics mash for the collision shape instead.
[13:06]	Motor Loon 	I'd sure use a PRIM setting for a road too
[13:06]	Al Blindside 	I have a suggestion : Given that sculpties wer a 'bespoke' part of SL then why not get a third party to make a plug in like Gaia Clary's 'SL Collada' which filters out all non-sl stuff (like exceeded face counts etc) for the likes of Blender?
[13:06]	Leviathan Flux 	that's one of the great benefits of mesh
[13:06]	Leviathan Flux 	being able to customize the physcis
[13:06]	Leviathan Flux 	physics*
[13:07]	Drongle McMahon 	It's the sort of bug that would annoy me intensely if I were responsible for the code! Each to his own.
[13:07]	dahlia1337 resident (dahlia.trimble) 	is there a way to define our own convex hulls instead of using the decomposition?
[13:07]	Leviathan Flux 	why
[13:07]	dahlia1337 resident (dahlia.trimble) 	why not?
[13:08]	Nyx Linden 	you can define your own physics mesh, but that is generally more expensive than convex hulls
[13:08]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	You should be able to make an even more efficient collision shape than convex hull if you make it yourself.
[13:08]	Drongle McMahon 	Dahlia ... you can force thyem by supplying a physics mesh already consisting of them.
[13:08]	Leviathan Flux 	because you can already define the physics shape
[13:08]	dahlia1337 resident (dahlia.trimble) 	I dont mean a physics mesh, I mean a hull
[13:08]	Aki Shichiroji 	yeah, i find it cuts down on costs if i make my own rather than relying on the decomp.
[13:08]	Drongle McMahon 	So do I
[13:08]	dahlia1337 resident (dahlia.trimble) 	bypassing the decomposition stage
[13:09]	Geenz Spad 	in this case, "physics shape" and "physics hull" are effectively the same thing
[13:09]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Nyx, Does Convex hull do anything more than fill in holes and lower the face count to 256 triangles max?
[13:09]	Drongle McMahon 	Just give it the hulls as meshes and the decomposer will copy them.
[13:10]	Nyx Linden 	convex hull tries to reduce the physical representation to a single convex hull, so it will also eliminate any concavities
[13:10]	Al Blindside 	Also - given that beautiful in world tools like Mesh Studio and Celzium now exist - why not ask the guys - The BlackBox and Cel Edman to write a plug in module for the main menu so we can create in world without having the hassles of translating stuff from out of world tools that were never designed for puspose?
[13:11]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Al, go to his office hour. Join sweet Sculpties to get a notice.
[13:11]	Al Blindside 	I'm in that group
[13:11]	Leviathan Flux 	in-world mesh creator?
[13:11]	Al Blindside 	Yes - there are great tools now
[13:11]	Nyx Linden 	any other topics for today?
[13:11]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	If you want to talk to the Black box, that's your best bet. :)
[13:12]	Rusalka Writer 	We feel done.
[13:12]	Motor Loon 	we almost done, I wanna have dinner so I can eat this cookie that Nyx gave me...
[13:12]	Rusalka Writer 	I'm certainly confused enough.
[13:12]	Leviathan Flux 	woudl LL consider putting some sort of limits or guidelines on face count of uploads?
[13:12]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	i want have diner too
[13:12]	Al Blindside 	Is the cookie on your hard drive?
[13:12]	Drongle McMahon 	Al ... because you have to pay them?
[13:12]	Leviathan Flux 	and I think Kendra had a question about uploading textures i was curious about too
[13:12]	Al Blindside 	It's chump change compared to licences
[13:12]	Leviathan Flux 	oh she left
[13:12]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	I gave him a tracking cookie, so soon I will know all his secrets!
[13:13]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	so by the end of the next week we will have the HAVOK issues resolved like crossing sims with mesh vehicules without problems?
[13:13]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	MUAHAHAHA!
[13:13]	Motor Loon 	¬∞Õú¬∞
[13:13]	Motor Loon 	chocolate chip tracking cookie
[13:13]	Rusalka Writer 	Yep, we're done.
[13:13]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	lol, a tracking cookie
[13:13]	Nyx Linden 	oh a quick announcement - no usergroup next week
[13:13]	Tiberious Neruda 	o.o
[13:13]	Leviathan Flux 	?
[13:13]	Motor Loon 	awwww
[13:13]	Rusalka Writer 	Dang.
[13:13]	Drongle McMahon 	Aarrgghhh!
[13:13]	Leviathan Flux 	we're done?
[13:13]	dahlia1337 resident (dahlia.trimble) 	bear shaped chocolate chip cookies :D
[13:13]	Nyx Linden 	we will pick back up on the 13th
[13:13]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	uh!?!
[13:13]	Drongle McMahon 	Why not?
[13:13]	Tia Aquila (tia.biscuit) 	[12:52:08] Œ∫Œµ…¥…ñ‡™∞Œª (kendra.zaurak): Nyx, when we will be able to upload a mesh with the textures?
[13:13]	Gramma Fiddlesticks 	well shoot. What will we do at noon on Moday?
[13:13]	Aki Shichiroji 	your regularly scheduled user group is being coopted due to Olympics :P
[13:13]	Motor Loon 	nooo... the sky is falling... you cant leave us a whole week nyyyyx
[13:13]	dahlia1337 resident (dahlia.trimble) 	with red M&Ms for eyes
[13:13]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Oh, if internet cookies were the kind you could eat... I guess I would be fat...
[13:13]	Leviathan Flux 	[13:12] Leviathan Flux: woudl LL consider putting some sort of limits or guidelines on face count of uploads?
[13:14]	Prep Linden 	gonna jet folks - see you all on the 13th! have a good one.
[13:14]	Aki Shichiroji 	that's what is being done to the vast number of shows i follow right now
[13:14]	Lysandra (lysander.ashbourne) 	booo olympics! *doesn't watch that stuff*
[13:14]	Rusalka Writer 	Aloha!
[13:14]	Motor Loon 	tc Prep
[13:14]	Gramma Fiddlesticks 	bye prep.
[13:14]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	k, 13th then
[13:14]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	see ya Prep
[13:14]	Adamburp Adamczyk 	happy birthday prep, only just relaised
[13:14]	Aki Shichiroji 	Thanks for the meeting, Nyx, Prep, Vir :)
[13:14]	Leviathan Flux 	I am feeling ignored
[13:14]	Nyx Linden 	as for textured meshes - there are still some bugs behind that, but it is intended to work
[13:14]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	see ya Nyx and Vir
[13:14]	Rusalka Writer 	Groovy.
[13:14]	Rusalka Writer 	Used to work.
[13:14]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	until 13th
[13:14]	Al Blindside 	TY the Linden guys - and all else who took part
[13:15]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Thank you for your time Lindens!
[13:15]	Rusalka Writer 	Cheers, all!
[13:15]	Aki Shichiroji 	isn't there already a face limit?
[13:15]	Leviathan Flux 	this was very disappoiting
[13:15]	Nyx Linden 	and there are limits on the number of faces allowed in an upload
[13:15]	Motor Loon 	luv' ya all... tc
[13:15]	Leviathan Flux 	disappointing*
[13:15]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	64 k limit
[13:15]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	right?
[13:15]	Bazz Fazz (vir.linden) 	Bye!
[13:15]	Aki Shichiroji 	Leviathan: in the future, add your question to the agenda
[13:15]	Gramma Fiddlesticks 	see yah Nyx, Vir and everyone. Gotta head off to kitchen to bake!
[13:15]	Leviathan Flux 	yeah but I mean more practical
[13:15]	Drongle McMahon 	64k per material?
[13:15]	Rusalka Writer 	Aloha!
[13:15]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Wow, that's a lot...
[13:15]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	see ya all guys at 13th
[13:15]	Leviathan Flux 	for the people that are uploading 80 prim table cloths
[13:15]	Aki Shichiroji 	Leviathan: think of it this way:
[13:15]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	64 k per mesh object, not sure
[13:15]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	TC all
[13:15]	Aki Shichiroji 	the market for lower prim objects will push those people out :P
[13:15]	Nyx Linden 	Leviathan - its hard to tell programatically what a "table cloth" is
[13:16]	Geenz Spad 	yay 16-bit vertex indexes :>
[13:16]	Leviathan Flux 	I understand
[13:16]	Leviathan Flux 	but
[13:16]	Nyx Linden 	an 80 prim house, however, is perfectly acceptable
[13:16]	Leviathan Flux 	if they designate a category
[13:16]	Leviathan Flux 	like
[13:16]	Tia Aquila (tia.biscuit) 	perhaps by size of the object?
[13:16]	Leviathan Flux 	hey im uploading a 500 prim 1 room shack
[13:16]	Leviathan Flux 	the number could be in red to show that's high
[13:16]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Can make houses a lot prim cheaper if you are good with texture illusions!
[13:16]	Aki Shichiroji 	i think it needs to be regulated on a personal, one on one basis.
[13:17]	Rusalka Writer 	You can't save everybody.
[13:17]	Leviathan Flux 	i know
[13:17]	Leviathan Flux 	that's my point
[13:17]	Aki Shichiroji 	i keep an eye out for script heavy items in my sims, for instance.
[13:17]	Jalynne Ohmai 	I'm obsessed with half prim meshes personally.
[13:17]	Tiberious Neruda 	problem is...
[13:17]	Leviathan Flux 	so people arent uploading models that hog resources and lag people out
[13:17]	Tiberious Neruda 	....if polycounts get too high, I'll CRASH if I try to select them
[13:17]	Jalynne Ohmai 	it's so much fun to copy and link them.
[13:18]	Leviathan Flux 	if there is some sort of system like you pick clothing, then jacket, then if it's like 40k faces could show that's high for a piece of clothing
[13:18]	Kennylex Luckless 	Can any Linden, please take trip to Ambleside and clean up after griefer
[13:18]	Leviathan Flux 	i feel like this should be a crucial issue
[13:18]	Geenz Spad 	best thing to do is educate people on efficient modeling practices from the sounds of it
[13:18]	Rusalka Writer 	People uploading stupid stuff is a good source of L$ for LL. Once they check the prim count it's their problem.
[13:18]	Aki Shichiroji 	people have been doing that with prim and sculpt for a while. there's not a lot you can do except ask that they cut down
[13:18]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Ah yeah, maybe face count should be displayed in Marketplace?
[13:18]	Rusalka Writer 	Nobody buys it, it's their problem.
[13:18]	Rusalka Writer 	Somebody does, it's their problem.
[13:18]	Qie Niangao 	(arguably, *attached* mesh can be unhelpfully complex without much effective limiting... but there's always avatar imposters, I guess)
[13:18]	Aki Shichiroji 	consider the shoe and hair-makers who routinely use 100+ prims to create individual objects.
[13:18]	Nyx Linden 	I'm open to suggestions, but it is "very difficult" to specifically set and enforce such limits - it should be a factor of education and informed building/purchasing
[13:19]	Rusalka Writer 	And the zillion-prim jewelry.
[13:19]	Tiberious Neruda 	255... sculpted... spikes...
[13:19]	Leviathan Flux 	yeah that's why i suggested guidelines as well
[13:19]	Geenz Spad 	sounds like a nice little wiki project!
[13:19]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Oh my, yeah, my hair is 105 prims...
[13:19]	Rusalka Writer 	But that's communism.
[13:19]	Tiberious Neruda 	500,000 triangles... JUST FOR HAIR!
[13:19]	Leviathan Flux 	there are a lot of people that still see attached mesh as 0 land impact and think that means it's 0 prims
[13:19]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Geenz, it has started one.
[13:20]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Let me find the link.
[13:20]	Geenz Spad 	wasn't aware that someone had put that up by now
[13:20]	Geenz Spad 	I know it's been mentioned a few times that someone should get on that
[13:20]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Good_Building_Practices
[13:20]	Tia Aquila (tia.biscuit) 	Aye, perhaps by size or like Lev says category and even penalty if your stuff is found to be stupidly over?
[13:21]	Aki Shichiroji 	the sad thing is... you could paste that link to any number of the content creator community and have people ignore it because they want THEIR product to be the star of the show.
[13:21]	Geenz Spad 	/me notices "Mesh and LOD" hasn't been created yet
[13:21]	Rusalka Writer 	Well, kids, plowing old fields here. I'm off.
[13:21]	Aki Shichiroji 	the problem is, when EVERYONE does that, EVERYONE suffers.
[13:21]	Nyx Linden 	I need to head out - feel free to add topics for next time. See everyone on the 13th!
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