Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2012.12.04

Simulator_User_Group
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== List of Speakers ==
Baker Linden 	Duckie Dickins 	Inara Pey
Jessika Corral 	Jonathan Yap 	Kallista Destiny
Lares Carter 	Martinrj Fayray 	Motor Loon
Nalates Urriah 	NeoBokrug Elytis	Qie Niangao
Rex Cronon 	Simon Linden 	Tankmaster Finesmith
Theresa Tennyson	World Undercroft	Yuzuru Jewell
== Transcript ==
[12:04] Simon Linden: ok, let's get started with the release news ...
[12:04] Yuzuru Jewell: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3X0hEQzD5Q and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lj_82wryJ9U
[12:04] Yuzuru Jewell: Please check it.
[12:05] Yuzuru Jewell: He checked by Oz's method.
[12:05] Tankmaster Finesmith: yuzuru, just wait for the second faze :P
[12:05] Simon Linden: There wasn't any main channel server update today because of last week's troubles with the RC versions
[12:06] Simon Linden: We've fixed those and will roll the same version out to all 3 RC channels tomorrow morning
[12:06] Lares Carter: Hi Simon
[12:06] Yuzuru Jewell: on viewer 3.4.3
[12:06] Simon Linden: The release notes are here: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2012-12-03/td-p/1755365
[12:07] Simon Linden: THere isn't much visible there, but llGetObjectDetails() has 3 new possible values
[12:08] Simon Linden: They are OBJECT_PHYSICS, OBJECT_PHANTOM, OBJECT_TEMP_ON_REZ
[12:08] Simon Linden: They do what you expect (I hope)
[12:09] Simon Linden: That release should have some stability improvements -- we saw a nice drop in the crash rate for the short time it was out
[12:09] Tankmaster Finesmith: nice
[12:10] Simon Linden: However, it doesn't have the fix for the navmesh re-building memory leak, which causes a lot of headaches. That will be in the next one, hopefully out next week, but it's still in QA now
[12:10] Simon Linden: That's it for news ... Baker, did you have anything?
[12:10] Tankmaster Finesmith: good to hear theres progress on it
[12:11] Kallista Destiny: Is there a fix for the navmesh rebuild sometimes not terminating?
[12:11] Simon Linden: Yes, Kallista, that's a symptom of the problems we fixed
[12:11] Kallista Destiny: Excelent
[12:12] Theresa Tennyson: Is there a way of identifying and avoiding the problem until it's fixed?
[12:12] Baker Linden: I don't have much,. I'm trying to finish up threaded object rezzing.
[12:12] Tankmaster Finesmith: don't change the navmesh? :P
[12:12] Simon Linden: Well, avoid terrain editing and re-building the navmesh if you can help it
[12:12] Kallista Destiny: ROLF
[12:13] Kallista Destiny: Is it terrain edit related, as opposed to objects related?
[12:13] Nalates Urriah: That pretty much means avoiding building in the region...
[12:13] Simon Linden: There's not much you can do otherwise ... the problems were pretty low-level with the way the servers managed those re-bake jobs, so it doesn't have anything to do with the terrain or navmesh itself, just the fact it was changed
[12:14] Kallista Destiny: Ahh, OK
[12:14] Kallista Destiny: Kind of random then?
[12:15] Yuzuru Jewell: sorry
[12:15] Simon Linden: If you edit the terrain, that triggers a terrain re-bake ... that's an internal conversion, but basically the ground now is a big mesh object for the physics engine, which is better than the older data type
[12:15] Motor Loon: My homestead that has the problem managed to allocate 421MB of memory the other day after being online for only 16 hours °?°
[12:15] Simon Linden: If you change that, then the navmesh has to be rebuilt too
[12:15] Qie Niangao: so schedule all your editing & terraforming for just before a restart is gonna happen anyway.
[12:16] Simon Linden: lol Qie, that's about it ... if you edit for long enough, you're likely to either get a crash or a memory bloat
[12:17] Simon Linden: I'm curious why your region causes that to much Motor ... is there anything there modifying the terrain a lot?
[12:18] Simon Linden: ok - I guess the table is open then for topics or questions
[12:18] Motor Loon: I haven't found anything... it's a sim I rent out for there's an "owner" of the place... funny and odd thing is when he's NOT on the sim, I see it be very stabile... but as soon as he's there, the navmesh has a constant change happening and memory climbs
[12:19] NeoBokrug Elytis: Maybe stuff rezzes in the region only when he's online?
[12:19] Simon Linden: hmm, that's interesting ... I wonder if he's constantly clicking the "rebake" button whenever it pops up
[12:19] Tankmaster Finesmith: isn't that what the button is for? :P
[12:19] Simon Linden: Otherwise, if nobody is around to click it, I'm not sure when that happens ... I think it's automatic after a long wait
[12:20] Simon Linden: Well, yes Tank, but it doesn't add to your high score ;)
[12:20] Tankmaster Finesmith: LOL
[12:20] Nalates Urriah: Pretend it is galf and you want a low score.
[12:20] Tankmaster Finesmith: shame!
[12:21] Nalates Urriah: golf^
[12:21] Motor Loon: When he's not there... the navmesh is never even asking for a rebake... once he's there - in less than a minute it asks (and keeps asking)
[12:21] Simon Linden: That's really odd ... I wonder if there's a bug somewhere that AV activity is triggering an update and rebake
[12:22] Simon Linden: He might have some attachment that is somehow triggering it, but that would also be strange
[12:22] Motor Loon: That was my thought.. but dunno, I suppose he could also have some object there that is only active when it see's him, just cant imagine what it would be nor have I found anything "odd" there
[12:22] Motor Loon: We already tried with attachments
[12:22] Qie Niangao: unless he's wearing a terraformer by accident.
[12:22] Motor Loon: even with everything removed from his avi, it still does the same thing
[12:23] Theresa Tennyson: Is there anything that scans the region or avatars there?
[12:23] Qie Niangao: hmmm... no script in the sim waiting for him to arrive to... move stuff around.
[12:23] Simon Linden: right, that's the only kind of attachment that should cause that kind of thing
[12:23] Motor Loon: However... if the memory leak is solved, then the other stuff is likely less of a problem atleast
[12:24] Simon Linden: yes - I built a stress test to constantly trigger and approve re-building the terrain and navmesh. I'm going to let that run for a while and make sure it's not leaking or crashing
[12:25] Martinrj Fayray: We have a npc character in our home, which comes running to us, when we're in the sim, maybe it's something similar?
[12:25] Motor Loon: cool... might be worth also just letting it trigger the change - and NOT rebake to see if that is enough to cause the problem
[12:25] NeoBokrug Elytis: Oh, I'd like to mention I found an interesting issue last week on the Main Server. LL Damage is disabled on my estate/region, but somehow Land parcel settings were allowed to override it.
[12:26] Motor Loon: He's got no PF characters... he does have a few moving animals and 2 breedable cats... but they seems just as active when he's not there though...
[12:26] NeoBokrug Elytis: That is, it should be off, but was turned on.
[12:26] Simon Linden: Scripted things aren't supposed to be part of the navmesh, so they won't do exactly that. I wonder if it was somehow added to it
[12:26] Motor Loon: Anything I could find that was scripted to move, I set to "Moveable Obstacle"
[12:27] Nalates Urriah: May be the leak is in the part of PF that handles the movable objects.
[12:27] Simon Linden: Right, that's what you have to do ... like when I set this house roof to be part of the nav mesh, the doors stopped working, as designed
[12:27] Theresa Tennyson: Was it only your tenant himself that cause the leak or could it be anyone?
[12:27] Nalates Urriah: But thien it should leak all the time...
[12:28] Simon Linden: I'm pretty sure the leak itself, or at least a major one, has been fixed. The mystery is why that region re-builds so much
[12:28] Motor Loon: Seems to be only the tenant... I had 3 of my staff members there with me (all EM's) and we was there for a while with the sim having no issues, navmesh not being triggered etc... as soon as we called the client over, within a minute the navmesh triggered
[12:29] Tankmaster Finesmith: regions are having a competition on which one can rebake the most :P
[12:29] Simon Linden: That's definitely strange
[12:29] Jonathan Yap: Motor, are you all using the same viewer?
[12:29] Motor Loon: (could someone pass me the first 11mins of todays meeting btw, I was a bit late)
[12:30] Nalates Urriah: sure
[12:30] Motor Loon: No, I'm on Firestorm - client is on LL's release and most of my staff was on Phoenix I think
[12:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[12:31] Simon Linden: I don't think that would make a difference, but it's an interesting data point
[12:32] Jonathan Yap: Motor seems to have eliminated the more obvious variables
[12:32] Motor Loon: nods
[12:32] Jonathan Yap: Also, did you try disabling scripts from running in the region?
[12:32] Motor Loon: I spend ALOT of time on that damn sim °?°
[12:32] Simon Linden: Those two bugs were pretty nasty
[12:32] Motor Loon: yes... with script disabled on region level things seems ok
[12:33] Jonathan Yap: Does the Top Scripts yield anything?
[12:33] Motor Loon: so I assume it was his moving animals and breedables - and had him pick them all up... but... after a restart and monitoring again, it turned out they didn't cause it
[12:33] Motor Loon: Nothing in topscript or topcolliders
[12:34] World Undercroft: jess :)
[12:34] Theresa Tennyson: If something rezzes an object (i.e. poseball) does it effect the navmesh?
[12:34] Jessika Corral: hey world
[12:34] Theresa Tennyson: Or ask for a rebake, at least?
[12:34] Motor Loon: If *I* rezzed things there while alone, a navmesh changed was not triggered
[12:35] Motor Loon: (as in scripted items)
[12:35] Jonathan Yap: Do the region's logs show anything interesting?
[12:35] Simon Linden: I _think_ there's a case where it can, Theresa ... if you rez something, change it to be a static part of the navmesh, then take it back
[12:35] Motor Loon: Only way I could make it need rebake, was by doing terrain mods or actually doing a change in the linkset editor
[12:36] Simon Linden: That was a deliberate choice to enable house rezzers to work and make things that function correctly with PF
[12:36] Rex Cronon: one of those temp rezzers?
[12:36] Motor Loon: No temprez objects on the sim
[12:37] Simon Linden: temp stuff doesn't contribute to the navmesh
[12:37] Rex Cronon: even physical?
[12:37] Simon Linden: (I sure hope it doesn't)
[12:37] Qie Niangao: Is there an estate setting to disallow terrain mods by anybody? (I'm still on the unlikely theory of a terraforming script that only runs when the tenant is in the region--as crazy as that sounds.)
[12:38] Rex Cronon: it could be a trojan script hidding inside a freebie...
[12:38] Simon Linden: We'll have to take a look after the updates and see if it's cycling with terrain re-bakes still
[12:38] Martinrj Fayray: I'm pretty sure it's not a server issue, want to mention it though: I often get thousands of sculpt: WARNING messages in the debug console with the current release, do you know anything about that? Is that a viewer issue?
[12:39] Martinrj Fayray: There's also a jira about it
[12:39] Martinrj Fayray: (From someone else)
[12:39] Simon Linden: Is that the one about the LOD being wrong?
[12:39] Martinrj Fayray: Current discard of sculpty at 6 is more than than allowed max of 5 - it says
[12:39] Martinrj Fayray: (Yes, there are two 'than' hehe)
[12:40] Simon Linden: right - I've seen that too. It's pretty annoying
[12:40] Rex Cronon: why r sculpts discarded?
[12:41] NeoBokrug Elytis: They are not as delicious as the others.
[12:41] Simon Linden: They're not being discarded, the term has to deal with the level of detail that's being used. That said, using LOD on sculpties always looks really ugly
[12:41] Rex Cronon: oh. ok.
[12:42] Rex Cronon: i have a question about llSetRegionPos
[12:42] Simon Linden: I don't know why the viewer ever tries to draw sculpties at less than full detail -- probably performance, but they're so ugly I wish it just skipped them
[12:43] Tankmaster Finesmith: lol
[12:43] Rex Cronon: is that a function that is executed on a differen thread than the thread that your script is running?
[12:44] Rex Cronon: is like the request to move object to a specific location is given to a different thread and function returns rightaway without waiting to get to destination
[12:44] Simon Linden: No Rex, that one is pretty simple ... it just slams the object to the given position.
[12:45] Rex Cronon: well it seems it doesn't:(
[12:45] Simon Linden: But it might be a bit of time (shouldn't be really long) before you get an update on the move
[12:46] Rex Cronon: i have this npv. i get on it in simA, i cross into simB, i get off it. and i send the npv to simA. if i walk across sim border to simA i suddenly find myself sitting on the npv
[12:46] Rex Cronon: npv=non pysical vehicle
[12:46] Simon Linden: wow, that's a good one
[12:46] Simon Linden: How far into the 2nd region do you go?
[12:47] Duckie Dickins: I've had that happened with motor loon's sail boat. :)
[12:47] Rex Cronon: 10m or more
[12:47] Rex Cronon: it doesn't matter the distance i go into simB
[12:47] Martinrj Fayray: It doesn't work for more than 10m beyond the region border
[12:47] Motor Loon: Very interesting bug indeed
[12:47] Martinrj Fayray: According to wiki
[12:48] Simon Linden: ok, I was just checking to make sure you've really crossed
[12:48] Rex Cronon: is like the npv doesn't stay longenough in simb, and when it gets to sima it forgets it unsat me
[12:48] Rex Cronon: u can do multiple calls martinrj:)
[12:48] Simon Linden: Right - I just can't figure out why it would think you are still seated
[12:48] Simon Linden: How long is it between standing and sending it back?
[12:49] Rex Cronon: is automatic. when it gets to simb unsits me and returns
[12:49] Simon Linden: so as soon as you un-sit, it goes back?
[12:49] Rex Cronon: yes
[12:50] Motor Loon: There's normally a delay from an object crossing the simborder, until the avatar crosses too and is again part of the objects linkset
[12:50] Simon Linden: Here's something to try - just add a short llSleep() after you unsit
[12:50] Rex Cronon: i did that simon. doesn't help
[12:51] Motor Loon: I did some test on that... I had a loop in my object look for the avatars key in the linkset, and do a llSleep(0.01); in each loop... It would usually need around 50 cycles to find me during a crossing... and sometimes more
[12:51] Rex Cronon: sometimes it works without a problem
[12:51] Simon Linden: Right, Motor - crossing on a vehicle happens by you (internally) getting un-sat, both the AV and vehicle are passed to the next region, then put back together
[12:51] Motor Loon: So Rex's object may try to unsit an avatar thats not "really" sitting on it yet at the time
[12:51] Rex Cronon: is very weird when u walk across border and suddenly u r sitting
[12:52] Rex Cronon: how can i not be really be sitting when it moves me to next sim and unsits me?
[12:52] Motor Loon: because when the object arrives in the region, you havent completed the crossing yet
[12:52] Simon Linden: That's what I don't get ... how it possibly picks up the fact you are seated
[12:53] Simon Linden: oooh, I have an idea ... add a counter to your script, Rex, and spit it out before the crossing, change it at unseating, and then look at it again when you're back there
[12:53] Motor Loon: Perhaps try adding a 2-3 sec. sleep before it tried to unsit you to make sure your avatar has crossed fully too
[12:53] Rex Cronon: is like a temporal error:)
[12:54] Simon Linden: I'm wondering if somehow the return to the first region is picking up stale region crossing data ... the data from when you left
[12:54] Rex Cronon: i will have to try busy waiting
[12:55] Rex Cronon: oh. i have tried with llSetPrimitiveParams, llSetLinkPrimitiveParamsFast and with llSetPos
[12:55] Simon Linden: If you write up a BUG report and pass Maestro Linden the vehicle, I'll bet he'd be interested in trying that out. It sounds like an interesting one
[12:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[12:55] Motor Loon: so theory.... object crossed with avatar sitting... object completed crossing and thinks it unsits the avatar... however avatar has not yet crossed.... object returns back to first sim with it's linkset still *thinking* the avatar is there because he wasnt really unsat... after arriving the the first sim, object waits... suddenly you walk back and object assumes you then finally arrived as part of the linkset - ergo you sit back on the object
[12:56] Rex Cronon: the part of unsitting me is lost alogn the way somewhere
[12:57] Rex Cronon: along*
[12:57] Motor Loon: It makes perfect sense to me, but then again - I am a bit wierd °?°
[12:57] Simon Linden: Right Motor - I was thinking it leaves Region A with the AV sitting. When doing that, it writes out the data to send it over to region B
[12:57] Rex Cronon: oh. sometimes i am still in the sitting pos in simb
[12:57] Simon Linden: When it comes back, I wonder if it picks up that stale data
[12:58] Rex Cronon: your explanation makes sense motor, is just weird(it shouldn't happen that way)
[12:58] Motor Loon: Would it be a bad thing if the object sorta "halted" until all sitting avatars made it through the crossing before it went on with it's activity?
[12:58] Theresa Tennyson: Speaking of region crossings, when is the threaded code going to be availible on adjacent Aditi sims?
[12:59] Inara Pey: Sooner the better I hope ?
[12:59] Simon Linden: Let me check, Theresa ... it should be on there now. I"m not sure about adjacent ones
[12:59] Rex Cronon: the thing is llSetRegionPos should return control to script only after it got there and avatar on object got there too
[13:00] Inara Pey: Bonefacio has it, last I checked, nothing adjacent did. You could get in, but not out...
[13:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[13:00] Inara Pey: ack.. rl...
[13:01] NeoBokrug Elytis: No word on the estate settings vs parcel settings? Seems exploitive.
[13:01] Motor Loon: what problem is that Neo ?
[13:01] NeoBokrug Elytis: Scrollback>> "Oh, I'd like to mention I found an interesting issue last week on the Main Server. LL Damage is disabled on my estate/region, but somehow Land parcel settings were allowed to override it."
[13:02] Simon Linden: There are 45 regions with it now, Thersa
[13:02] Simon Linden: Theresa
[13:02] Tankmaster Finesmith: thanks for your time, simon
[13:02] Simon Linden: Sure, thanks everyone for coming today
[13:02] Theresa Tennyson: Is there a cluster of them that you noticed?
[13:03] Tankmaster Finesmith: and lookin forward to your object rezzing work, baker :D
[13:03] Nalates Urriah: Thanks Lindens
[13:03] Rex Cronon: tc simon, baker
[13:03] Simon Linden: Neo - do you have any idea how that got set that way?
[13:03] Kallista Destiny: Thank you all
[13:03] Lares Carter: Thanks for the meeting.
[13:03] Rex Cronon: tc everybody and have nice day all:)
[13:04] NeoBokrug Elytis: Nope, it's off in my estate, and the resident was allowed to turn it on and off (after I requested he turn it back off)
[13:04] Simon Linden: Theresa - do you have access to the "GC Test" regions there?
[13:04] Motor Loon: But even if he has it turned on, does damage actually takes place Neo?
[13:04] Simon Linden: ah, you should, those are all mainland
[13:04] NeoBokrug Elytis: Motor: Yes
[13:05] Motor Loon: well, thats bad then
[13:05] Simon Linden: GC Test 29, 30, 35, 36 are all the new code
[13:05] NeoBokrug Elytis: I only ask because someone was kind enough to stop by and kill everyone in the region until I estate banned them.
[13:06] Simon Linden: Neo - I'm not sure what's going on. I assume that's not as designed, the estate setting should over-ride it. Can you file a BUG with info about the parcel location?
[13:06] NeoBokrug Elytis: Already did. :)
[13:06] Tankmaster Finesmith: what code is at those regions?
[13:06] NeoBokrug Elytis: Code?
[13:06] Martinrj Fayray: Version
[13:06] Simon Linden: The GC Test ones? They all have the threaded region crossing
[13:06] NeoBokrug Elytis: BUG-992
[13:07] NeoBokrug Elytis: Main Server
[13:07] Tankmaster Finesmith: ah ok
[13:07] Simon Linden: and the parcel owner is able to turn that on and off freely?
[13:07] NeoBokrug Elytis: Yeah, the group is.
[13:10] Simon Linden: Well, I'm only guessing at what's going on there but please add info about the parcel location and what group and group powers the owner is expected to have. It sounds like a loophole is letting them change that
[13:10] NeoBokrug Elytis: Okay. I am not part of the group though. The region is one big parcel.
[13:10] NeoBokrug Elytis: With only an 32m microparcel for estate functions.
[13:11] Simon Linden: ok, whatever details you have can help. What often happens with bugs like this is we'll just go somewhere and try and repeat it, and it won't reproduce because it requires some subtle combination of settings to make it happen
[13:12] NeoBokrug Elytis: I'll fill in what I can. But it seems members of that group with the proper group roles can change the setting.
[13:12] Simon Linden: Right - and you can't change the group role powers ... is that correct?
[13:13] Simon Linden: or don't want to, I mean
[13:13] NeoBokrug Elytis: I am not in that group -- so I can't.
[13:14] Qie Niangao: Thanks for your time, Simon, Baker.... have fun, all.
[13:14] Simon Linden: ok ... well, the exact locatoin of that parcel will really help. We can figure out what group it is from there
[13:14] Simon Linden: Thanks everyone for coming today
[13:14] NeoBokrug Elytis: Already edited and added it to the bug report. :)
[13:14] Simon Linden: great, thanks
Simulator_User_Group
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