Mesh/Archive/2012-07-09

==Agenda==
#Attachment points can be weighted and animated as ordinary bones and RedPoly has demonstrated that the same is true of the volume deform bones. However with the attachment points at least, trying to move the location of these bones in Collada either gets ignored or breaks the entire armature. Since they act as bones in everything else this just seems an oversight in the importer. Should a Jira be filed? Being able to simply move these bones as you can with the 'normal' bones would really open up the possibilities for character creation, things like facial rigging and animation. Additionally it would be very helpful if the Sl importer would support a solution for Attachment bone names with white spaces in their name (to avoid syntax problems with Collada) Gaia Clary 05:19, 2 July 2012 (PDT)
# Small glitch: mesh preview doesn't seem to honor the bind_shape_matrix in the collada file. Is that on purpose or a bug ? Gaia Clary 06:41, 2 July 2012 (PDT)
# We have started a document about the Second Life Skeleton: http://blog.machinimatrix.org/avastar/the-second-life-skeleton/ . Whom can we contact for verification of the content and for additional information to complete the document ? Gaia Clary 05:19, 2 July 2012 (PDT)
# Are there any plans on better enforcing efficient modelling? I am asking since friends on older computers tend to crash when around too complex Mesh models. Does the habit of using the simplest shape possible for the lowest LOD let people get away with a much higher face count on the highest LOD than was intended? (The Blue galaxian avatar seem to be a good place to start if you want to reproduce.) Davido Chrome
# Edges show are white over white meshes, so arent visibles at all. And Z offset is usless without a plane reference as floor. Kitsune Shan
# Linked set of meshes have higher LI after being scripted Kitsune Shan
# Can we add to the standard facial animations - the 8 mouth emotes that cover every sound in the English language (and most other languages)? These simply include the showing of teeth and tongue ( as well as lips) in different positons. With this change Imported voice sounds can at least be lip-sync programmed AND programmed "TEXT CHAT TO LIP_SYNC" becomes possible with a text-to-speech plugin. User:Al Supercharge 
# Will we get user defined object centers any time? It would solve the problems of LOD models and collision shapes not being aligned. Davido Chrome
# I know this meeting isn't Bug Triage but I would like to get a little insight on a bug that is holding up release of a new product: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-29200 Ardy Lay
==Meeting Notes==
==Attendees List==
*Aki Shichiroji (aki.shichiroji)
*Al Supercharge (al.supercharge)
*Ardy Lay (ardy.lay)
*arton Rotaru (arton.rotaru)
*Asha (ashasekayi.ra)
*Chubbalicious (chubbalicious.chauveau)
*√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome)
*Geenz Spad (geenz.spad)
*JIRA-helper (jira-helper)
*jr (jr4201.kruyschek)
*„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan)
*Nal (nalates.urriah)
*Nyx Linden (nyx.linden)
*Prep Linden (prep.linden)
*Quenemue Cyberstar (quenemue.cyberstar)
*Rusalka Writer (rusalka.writer)
*Tiberious Neruda (tiberious.neruda)
*TrollMasterFlexx (coppola10k) (trollmasterflexx.(coppola10k))
*Bazz Fazz (vir.linden)
*Vivian Pinelli (vivian.pinelli)
==Transcript for Monday July 9, 2012==
[12:00]	Rusalka Writer 	Gang's all here.
[12:00]	Chubbalicious (chubbalicious.chauveau) 	Hi
[12:00]	Aki Shichiroji 	Hi Prep, Vir, Nyx
[12:01]	Vivian Pinelli 	Hello
[12:01]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Heya Nyx and Prep
[12:01]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	hi Vir
[12:01]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Heya Vir
[12:01]	Bazz Fazz (vir.linden) 	Hi folks.
[12:01]	Chubbalicious (chubbalicious.chauveau) 	Hi
[12:02]	Nyx Linden 	agenda is here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group
[12:03]	Nyx Linden 	shall we get started?
[12:03]	Nyx Linden 	first topic: "Attachment points can be weighted and animated as ordinary bones and RedPoly has demonstrated that the same is true of the volume deform bones. However with the attachment points at least, trying to move the location of these bones in Collada either gets ignored or breaks the entire armature. Since they act as bones in everything else this just seems an oversight in the importer. Should a Jira be filed? Being able to simply move these bones as you can with the 'normal' bones would really open up the possibilities for character creation, things like facial rigging and animation. Additionally it would be very helpful if the Sl importer would support a solution for Attachment bone names with white spaces in their name (to avoid syntax problems with Collada) Gaia Clary 05:19, 2 July 2012 (PDT)"
[12:03]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Sounds like a plan
[12:03]	Al Supercharge 	Hi Nyx -- afraid my entry was off-mesh subject -- but triggered by agenda item 1 "facial rigging"
[12:03]	Nyx Linden 	this meeting isn't exclusively mesh-related :)
[12:04]	Al Supercharge 	good
[12:04]	Prep Linden 	Yes, please a file a JIRA for both of these issues ( I actually think we had the second issue wrt the collada syntax issue).
[12:05]	Prep Linden 	I'll dig up the code for the second issue and try to get it in shortly.
[12:05]	Al Supercharge 	the 8 face anims ?
[12:06]	Aki Shichiroji 	I dn't think they've gotten to your point yet, Al. We usually work from the top of the agenda down.
[12:06]	Al Supercharge 	oh 2nd agenda item
[12:06]	Al Supercharge 	2nd isue within agenda 1
[12:07]	Tiberious Neruda 	ah... yeah... attachment point offsetting?
[12:07]	Nyx Linden 	topic 2: "Small glitch: mesh preview doesn't seem to honor the bind_shape_matrix in the collada file. Is that on purpose or a bug ? Gaia Clary 06:41, 2 July 2012 (PDT)"
[12:08]	Tiberious Neruda 	...wouldn't mind that either. Would make placing attachments MUCH easier on these
[12:08]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	I added a topic to the agenda, so please refresh.
[12:09]	Prep Linden 	This a bug - jsut looked at the code and we do parse and apply the bind shape matrix. So something is fishy there. Please file a jira.
[12:11]	Nyx Linden 	do let us know when you have the bug filed, thanks for bringing it up!
[12:12]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan)	hello
[12:12]	Rusalka Writer 	Aloha.
[12:12]	Vivian Pinelli 	Hello KitKit
[12:12]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	hi, Kitsune
[12:12]	Nyx Linden 	third topic: "We have started a document about the Second Life Skeleton: http://blog.machinimatrix.org/avastar/the-second-life-skeleton/ . Whom can we contact for verification of the content and for additional information to complete the document ? Gaia Clary 05:19, 2 July 2012 (PDT)"
[12:12]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Thank you Gaia
[12:13]	Nyx Linden 	you should bring it up here! We'll have to pass it around to a few people internally to verify the content and answer any gaps of information
[12:13]	Prep Linden 	Gaia: Just briefly looked at your write up - nice work, I'll go through it in more depth shortly (along with your other requests!)
[12:14]	Nyx Linden 	we'll circle back with Gaia to make sure she gets the information she needs
[12:15]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "Are there any plans on better enforcing efficient modelling? I am asking since friends on older computers tend to crash when around too complex Mesh models. Does the habit of using the simplest shape possible for the lowest LOD let people get away with a much higher face count on the highest LOD than was intended? (The Blue galaxian avatar seem to be a good place to start if you want to reproduce.) Davido Chrome"
[12:16]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	good question, i would also like to see more precise poly counts according to the original mesh in RL
[12:16]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Original mesh in RL?!
[12:16]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	yes
[12:17]	arton Rotaru 	lol
[12:17]	Vivian Pinelli 	¬∞Õú¬∞
[12:17]	Vivian Pinelli 	:)
[12:17]	Nyx Linden 	it is rather difficult to enforce efficient modeling from a purely technical standpoint - it is difficult to know that a model being uploaded is a "house" and know how complex a "house" should be if it is the centerpiece of an entire region, or one house of many to be placed on a small parcel
[12:17]	Aki Shichiroji 	you don't know how many times i've heard people say 'mesh looks too much like it came from a video game' - ie: too primitive :P There's always a push towards higher detailed and smoother items. I do wish the penalties for inefficient modelling were higher, but people will just make more objects to create more detail if severely restricted :(
[12:17]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	if i have a model with 800 vertices in RL why have it with 1600 in SL
[12:17]	Geenz Spad 	targetting the original avatar mesh for poly count is a tad bit insane :p
[12:18]	Nyx Linden 	content creators should keep in mind that not everyone has their LOD factor turned way up, so the lower levels of detail should still be sensible, and still represent the object they are modeling, if only crudely
[12:18]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	I see your point.
[12:18]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	It would help if LL released a document that lists sane poly counts for common items like a house verseus a dress, etc.
[12:18]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	The Land Impact cost does not seem to have much effect on mesh avatar attachments. There seems to be a lack of incentive to create efficeint mesh clothes. At least so far. I have hopes for market pressures, but it seems to be slow coming.
[12:18]	Geenz Spad 	maybe there should be a wiki page somewhere
[12:18]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	what are the distances for the LODS as imported?
[12:19]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Yes, some don't care. But, some new creators have no clue what is sane.
[12:19]	Aki Shichiroji 	doesn't it vary by size?
[12:19]	Tiberious Neruda 	yeah... avatars are the biggest loophole for LI abuse
[12:19]	Nyx Linden 	it depends on the size of the mesh jr - there's documentation on what the LOD switch distances are.
[12:19]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	thanks, Nyx
[12:19]	Rusalka Writer 	There are some mesh creators who haven't discovered "set smooth."
[12:19]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	JR: there are a number of threads in the forum discussing LoD ditences.
[12:20]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	distances^
[12:20]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	ty, Nal
[12:21]	arton Rotaru 	and a number about vertices counts in SL , too
[12:21]	Nyx Linden 	I highly encourage anyone who is interested to have open discussions and help gather best practices information. LL can gather/host the information, but getting a sense of best practices and techniques should be a collaborative process.
[12:22]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Tutorials in texture baking might be needed?
[12:22]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Script Weights have worked out well because of the script counter functions in LSL. Do we have a comparable render complexity function that could be used to make compexity meters?
[12:22]	Al Supercharge 	What's "LOD switch distances"
[12:22]	Nyx Linden 	there are some sections of the wiki that have focused on this, but we can start new areas if there is a strong push for getting reasonable suggestions for how complex a "house" should be and how to achieve that while maintaining quality content.
[12:22]	Aki Shichiroji 	the distance at which a model will LOD down, Al.
[12:23]	arton Rotaru 	Lokk Odd Distances!^^
[12:23]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Al, the distances the model complexity switches to a simpler one.
[12:23]	arton Rotaru 	Look*
[12:23]	Al Supercharge 	what's "LOD down" ?
[12:23]	Geenz Spad 	yay community documentation efforts
[12:23]	Nyx Linden 	yes nal, the render complexity is measured in the advanced dialog of the build tools floater along with the other weights.
[12:23]	Al Supercharge 	isn't it also dependant on size ?
[12:23]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	LOD = Level of Detail... down means going to the next simpler LoD model.
[12:24]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Nyx, give us a space and we have somewhere to fill.
[12:24]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Nyx, is the anything in LSL that can use that information?
[12:24]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	LSL driven LOD? What would be the point?
[12:24]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	When people can see it, the residents in general can do something about the problem of inefficient models.
[12:25]	Nyx Linden 	LOD is level of detail, basically each mesh is uploaded as several versions - one to be displayed when the object is far away/small, and progressively more complex models for the closer you get. The distance at which you switch from one version to the next depends on the size of the model as well as a debug setting in the viewer.
[12:25]	Al Supercharge 	ye - -size - I thot so
[12:25]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan)	size of the model, draw distance and quality of objects in preferences
[12:25]	Al Supercharge 	where is that documentation ?
[12:25]	Prep Linden 	al: start here -> http://community.secondlife.com/t5/English-Knowledge-Base/Uploading-a-mesh-model/ta-p/974185
[12:26]	Nyx Linden 	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mesh/Mesh_Streaming_Cost
[12:26]	Al Supercharge 	it talks about camera distance ?
[12:26]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan)	basically is the same not only for meshes, also for common sculpts and prims
[12:27]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	If we can't grab render complexity values in LSL we can't make meters to get residents envolved in creating pressure to enfluence creators.
[12:27]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Hmm. I think Quenemues Avatar might be a good place to start, it looks killer, but when you look real close you see it has big faces. Makes me want to use that avatar in the proposed documentation as an example.
[12:27]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan)	but that is client side, you cant calcualte that using script if depend of your settings at all
[12:27]	Rusalka Writer 	Same with Aki's.
[12:28]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Nal, that's a good point.
[12:28]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Please let's not add to the ability for people to harash other residents. We already have ARC values for people that concerned.
[12:28]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Thx Kitsune
[12:28]	Nyx Linden 	the render weight is set up to be hardware and setting-independent. the render "weight" of an object will not change from system to system
[12:28]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	I'm for it.
[12:28]	TrollMasterFlexx (coppola10k) 	yup
[12:29]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	If it doesn't change... could it be calc's server side and used in LSL?
[12:30]	Aki Shichiroji 	Did anything ever come of that viewer that was supposed to show, between green and red highlighting - render weight of all objects? (IE: not just avs)
[12:30]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	I need to keep my max number of imposter avatars at about 8. I am for it.
[12:30]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	It should be about education, not witch hunts.
[12:30]	Nyx Linden 	It is theoretically possible, but display weight is currently calculated viewer-side.
[12:30]	arton Rotaru 	+1 Asha
[12:31]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	It's also about solidarity with people who can't afford to get the latest hardware every other year...
[12:31]	arton Rotaru 	I see almost only red in arc over here^^
[12:31]	Nyx Linden 	Aki - the issue with it is that the color highlighting showed weights per-linkset, so you could make a super-expensive object and get it to be green by breaking it into smaller pieces.
[12:31]	arton Rotaru 	so we all would be kicked ^^
[12:31]	Aki Shichiroji 	ah
[12:31]	Al Supercharge 	I dont see any reference to camera distance and LOD SWITCHING ?
[12:31]	Al Supercharge 	and SIZE
[12:32]	arton Rotaru 	A, try searching the mesh froums. It's all there
[12:32]	Al Supercharge 	shouldn't have to
[12:32]	arton Rotaru 	AL*
[12:32]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Al, look for drongle's posts he has written a load of stuff on LoD
[12:32]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Sorry, but that still doesn't mean that LL should add to the problem by adding that functionality to LSL. It will create FUD because some people will not educate themselves enough about what is or isn;t a good number for certain assets.
[12:33]	Aki Shichiroji 	Al - it's pretty intuitive as you upload LODs. Probably something better discussed in a mesh group rather than in the middle of a meeting with an existing agenda.
[12:33]	Al Supercharge 	thankyou - but I'd like to see a Linden post
[12:33]	Rusalka Writer 	Drongle is as good a source as you'll find anywhere.
[12:33]	Ardy Lay 	I remember what happened when I complained that SL isn't well documented. I was told to read the viewer source code.
[12:33]	Nyx Linden 	We've discussed it a number of times in a number of settings - I'll dig up some of the documentation and send it your way Al.
[12:33]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan)	Actually, we can see above teh objects a number that indicates the actual LOD of an object. Maybe making it a float number could display more info to how near is to the next LOD. Showing for example 1.80 meaning that is near to show the 2nd LOD. That number will vary using the camera and changing object size.
[12:34]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	AL, then keep searching the wiki, but be sure to check the HISTORY of the page to see if it was Linden or user written.
[12:34]	Al Supercharge 	thanks Nyx -- dont want to be too much of a stirrer but ....:)
[12:34]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "Edges show are white over white meshes, so arent visibles at all. And Z offset is usless without a plane reference as floor. Kitsune Shan"
[12:34]	Prep Linden 	Agreed, not having the ground plane makes previewing inefficient. If there isn't a Jira for this issue please file one.
[12:35]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	+1 for a ground plane
[12:35]	Rusalka Writer 	Would be excellent, especially with offsets.
[12:35]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	+2
[12:35]	Aki Shichiroji 	yeah, i'm often uploading several times to get avs on the ground just right.
[12:35]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	/me nods
[12:36]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan)	I use a prim to measure the distance fom my feet to the floor lol
[12:36]	Rusalka Writer 	If we can zoom in enough in the preview window, which it seems we can't.
[12:36]	Prep Linden 	As for configuring the edge color - that should be configurable from the debug settings. If it's not that should also be jira'fied...
[12:36]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	The debug settings aren't exactly user friendly?
[12:36]	Prep Linden 	Rusalka: zooming does seem flacky...especially with avatars and joint offsets.
[12:36]	Rusalka Writer 	Yes.
[12:37]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan)	Really preview meshes are really BAD. I just see a mostly complete white mesh that is hard to distinguis if is correct or is looking wrong
[12:37]	Rusalka Writer 	Too much personal space on the avatar in preview.
[12:37]	arton Rotaru 	yeah, the preview is kinda useless
[12:37]	Nyx Linden 	partially that is due to the bugs around textures loading on the preview mesh.
[12:37]	Prep Linden 	kitsune: there is an outstanding bug where the materials for skin are not consistently applied.
[12:37]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	i want mesh temp upload, lol
[12:37]	Al Supercharge 	my preview mesh is pretty good
[12:37]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	You want to be able to pan too.
[12:38]	Rusalka Writer 	Temp upload would be pleasant. No more trying to get onto the beta grid.
[12:38]	Nyx Linden 	local preview would be better :)
[12:38]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan)	oh,also, I remember we could use our own animations in preview windows while uploading rigged ones. Why that was removed? it worked perfect to test if the avatar was correctly rigged
[12:38]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	what`s the difference, Nyx?
[12:38]	Ardy Lay 	Aditi gets grumpy when I try to upload.
[12:39]	Rusalka Writer 	I keep ending up in some weird spa place over on the beta grid.
[12:39]	Tiberious Neruda 	just SOMETHING to let us preview and adjust things like Z Offset
[12:39]	Al Supercharge 	em then it appears that camera distnce should be part of preview ?
[12:39]	Nyx Linden 	local preview would only be viewable on your viewer, and wouldn't ever reach our servers - you'd just be able to preview an object that only existed on your machine.
[12:39]	Quenemue Cyberstar 	that would be good
[12:39]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	not good Nyx
[12:39]	Rusalka Writer 	Nice.
[12:39]	Prep Linden 	kitsune: yeah, there is jira that would allow you specify which animations to play int he preview window instead of the default idle.
[12:39]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Yeah, but rendered in world!
[12:39]	Ardy Lay 	temp upload = mis-using avatar baked skin storage; local preview = only stored in the potential uploader's viewer
[12:40]	Rusalka Writer 	I assume objects would still have an expiration date?
[12:40]	Quenemue Cyberstar 	yeh if it were rendered locally but like its in the world it would be nice
[12:40]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	not good because as an example i am now working with two teams, one for aircrafts and other for bug sailling yachts
[12:40]	Tiberious Neruda 	as long as we can see it and 'attach' it, so we can work with it, I'd be fine with it
[12:40]	Prep Linden 	kitsune: but having the preview tied to the in world avatar animation was problematic (for a # of reasons).
[12:40]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan)	yes Prep, but before the preview window just moved like our actual avatar, doing the same animations, like a copy. Wasntat that good?
[12:40]	Ardy Lay 	/me is too slow
[12:40]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan)	(ÔæâÔæüŒøÔæü)Ôæâ ÔΩµÔΩµÔΩµÔΩµÔΩ´ÔΩ´ÔΩ´ÔΩ´ÔΩ´ÔΩ´-
[12:40]	Rusalka Writer 	Moving forward with mesh vehicles? Bold.
[12:40]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	so, temp upload would be better for team work
[12:40]	Nyx Linden 	I'd stick with aditi for team work personally
[12:40]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	that`s my opinion
[12:41]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan)	well, local preview could adress some of that stuff
[12:41]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Instead of fixing preview. Allow us to have it render as if it was in world before you actually upload it.
[12:41]	Rusalka Writer 	Local objects would tempt me to build on my land, fill it with free things only I could see. What about prim count?
[12:41]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	And make mesh attachements locally attachable.
[12:41]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	can we have both? lol
[12:41]	Nyx Linden 	local preview objects would not survive a viewer restart, nor would they be simulated physically.
[12:41]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Rusalka, wouldn't matter, it wouldn't affect the server.
[12:42]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	And what Nyx said.
[12:42]	Rusalka Writer 	Not surviving a restart cures it.
[12:42]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Nyx, they would still be great even with those limits.
[12:42]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	However, it would be real cool if you could build your iown virtual space locally! :D
[12:42]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan)	lol
[12:42]	Nyx Linden 	and third party developers can help work on local preview since it would be a viewer-only change :)
[12:42]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan)	you can actually, in your 3D app :p
[12:43]	Geenz Spad 	I've considered it :p
[12:43]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Kitsune, good point. XD
[12:43]	Al Supercharge 	mesh preview with variable camera distance for the default LOD of 2
[12:44]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	I still vote for "In world local preview".
[12:44]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	me i vote for temp upload, sorry
[12:44]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan)	yes, and Nyx said, so he must give us all. too late to say no lol
[12:44]	Nyx Linden 	so there are a ton of suggestions on how to improve things here. I'd encourage everyone interested to check out what jira feature requests exist already, and feel free to file any new feature requests
[12:44]	Rusalka Writer 	Pony.
[12:45]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Where?
[12:45]	Rusalka Writer 	Not at my house.
[12:45]	Vivian Pinelli 	:)))
[12:45]	Ardy Lay 	I am NOT a pony! Oh, nevermind.
[12:45]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	also with temp preview we can show things to costum clients for they make decisions
[12:45]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	I have a My little Pony avatar.
[12:45]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	lol Ardy
[12:45]	Nyx Linden 	kitsune - unfortunately this meeting covers feature requests far more quickly than we are able to implement them. I'm happy to discuss what is possible, but what gets done depends on what other projects are going on at the time.
[12:45]	Al Supercharge 	( the "in-world" option would give the camera distance prevue)
[12:46]	Rusalka Writer 	What Nyx means is "no ponies for you."
[12:46]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan)	yeah yeah, actually just take as priority the z offset. is something very important i think
[12:46]	Nyx Linden 	so please make sure these requests are in JIRA so that we can prioritize them when we get more cycles freed up
[12:46]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan)	/me thuds
[12:46]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "Linked set of meshes have higher LI after being scripted Kitsune Shan"
[12:47]	Rusalka Writer 	Yep. It's a feature.
[12:47]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan)	its a bug for me
[12:47]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan)	:p
[12:47]	Nyx Linden 	Yes, this is intentional. Setting a linkset as physical or making it scripted means the server has to treat it as "dynamic"
[12:47]	arton Rotaru 	will be better with pathfinding
[12:47]	Nyx Linden 	and dynamic objects create more load since they can make changes to the world without user interaction
[12:48]	Nyx Linden 	we are investigating some changes to how we count dynamic objects, but they aren't finalized/released yet.
[12:48]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan)	ok, then that make me think that instead of working so hard at LODs, I can set all objects to higher quality if at the end I will get the same LI after linking and scripting. And that is bad
[12:48]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	any news about the mesh clothes deformer mesh? can we deform clothes without deform the AV too, because then both keep not matching well, and can no mod mesh clothes be adjustable with that parametric deformer?
[12:48]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Nyx: Changes beyond what Pathfinding will add?
[12:48]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Uh, that would make the LI even higher, wouldn't it?
[12:49]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan)	because isnt really fair that I make something that is 2 prims but 6 after scripted :/
[12:49]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan)	no
[12:49]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	oh! good, Nyx, because i got more reports about changing mesh prims counts long time after they are imported
[12:49]	Rusalka Writer 	The script/linking debate has been going on for what, a year or more?
[12:49]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	More Rusalka
[12:49]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan)	becaue if 2 linked mesh is 1 single prim, after scripting will be 2 prims. So I take less carea about LOD, make it higer and make each mesh to be 1 prim so linked will be 2 anyway
[12:49]	Rusalka Writer 	Feels that way.
[12:49]	Rusalka Writer 	Yes, everybody is familiar with the problem.
[12:50]	Rusalka Writer 	Sorry, feature.
[12:50]	Nyx Linden 	we have some areas and new viewers you can test your content against the new counting system
[12:50]	Rusalka Writer 	Groovy.
[12:50]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	how is that research about the prims count going so far?
[12:50]	Nyx Linden 	look for pathdev 1 2 and 3, and be sure to get the pathfinding project viewer.
[12:50]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Ah, thanks for that info Nyx.
[12:51]	Rusalka Writer 	Nice.
[12:51]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	so older mesh imports will have new prims counts?
[12:51]	Ardy Lay 	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Alternate_Viewers
[12:51]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan)	at least could that depend of the kind of script used. a simple lamp I dont think that changes too much the world and how it interacts with it if you have a light to turn on and off
[12:51]	Rusalka Writer 	Mahalo, Ardy.
[12:52]	Nyx Linden 	yes, the new accounting will affect older objects, but we expect that it will decrease the land impact, not increase.
[12:52]	Prep Linden 	Here's a link the pathfinding viewer: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Alternate_Viewers#Second_Life_Project_Viewers
[12:52]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan)	thx
[12:52]	Rusalka Writer 	You've been concerned all along that counts should go down rather than up.
[12:53]	Al Supercharge 	/me ( not worried now about his scripted one LI mesh seagull - going >1 in future)
[12:53]	Nyx Linden 	two more topics and 7 minutes, mind if we keep this moving?
[12:53]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan)	lol
[12:53]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	great :)
[12:53]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	nope
[12:53]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Surely
[12:53]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "Can we add to the standard facial animations - the 8 mouth emotes that cover every sound in the English language (and most other languages)? These simply include the showing of teeth and tongue ( as well as lips) in different positons. With this change Imported voice sounds can at least be lip-sync programmed AND programmed "TEXT CHAT TO LIP_SYNC" becomes possible with a text-to-speech plugin. User:Al Supercharge"
[12:54]	Geenz Spad 	custom facial animations would be pretty awesome
[12:54]	Al Supercharge 	/me thinks this must have been raised already
[12:54]	Aki Shichiroji 	it would be neat to see more done with that lip sync feature other than just direct reaction to voice use.
[12:54]	Vivian Pinelli 	oh which of the Lindens crashed me ? :(
[12:55]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan)	cant be trigered using script?
[12:55]	Aki Shichiroji 	how are those different, in implimentation, from the current facial anims, i wonder? They seem like morphs too, to me?
[12:55]	Nyx Linden 	Right now we have two hard coded for use with the lip sync feature. It works somewhat, but only with people who are using the standard avatar mesh.
[12:55]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	lol, Vivian
[12:55]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	I am not sure that level of detail should be prioritized. I would rather focus on ecpressions than something just Lingusists and students of cognitive science will notice.
[12:55]	Al Supercharge 	we got machima folks post-prosessing closeups of AV face in Reallusion CrazyTalk Animator Pro
[12:55]	Al Supercharge 	we can that instead in SL
[12:55]	Nyx Linden 	Is the suggetion to extend those to more positions, or to support a general-purpose facial animation system for custom imported avatar meshes?
[12:56]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan)	last thing
[12:56]	Aki Shichiroji 	applied to the normal av mesh even would be useful i think.
[12:56]	Geenz Spad 	I think the latter would be more desirable, but the former wouldn't be all that bad either
[12:56]	Al Supercharge 	just the 8 anims to start
[12:56]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Might as well give us morphs in general if you are going to do that :p
[12:57]	Rusalka Writer 	Yep.
[12:57]	Geenz Spad 	oh dear
[12:57]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan)	*GIGGLES* :)Nyx Linden 10:40, 10 July 2012 (PDT)
[12:57]	Nyx Linden 	just adding more positions for lip sync wouldn't be terribly complex, but making them accessible to LSL or other systems would involve a good bit more work.
[12:57]	Al Supercharge 	those 8 anims can be quick and soon please
[12:57]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan)	lol
[12:57]	Aki Shichiroji 	good things take time :)
[12:57]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	/me chuckles
[12:57]	Al Supercharge 	waiting for mesh face bones -- much longer ?
[12:57]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	true
[12:57]	Nyx Linden 	its not a bad suggestion, but is subject to prioritization against other standing projects keep in mind - is there a JIRA for this feature request?
[12:58]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	good things take good time
[12:58]	Al Supercharge 	and meet a common need
[12:58]	Geenz Spad 	could see about splitting it up a bit :p maybe new positions for the interim, and a fancier system later?
[12:58]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan)	yeah, it was 7 years for meshes, just wait 7 years more and we will have normal maps too!
[12:58]	Geenz Spad 	oh boy
[12:58]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Ugh, don't joke about that Kitsune o.o
[12:58]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan)	*GIGGLES* :)Nyx Linden 10:40, 10 July 2012 (PDT)
[12:59]	Quenemue Cyberstar 	14 years to get custom rigs
[12:59]	Al Supercharge 	no Jira yet ( that I know of)
[12:59]	Vivian Pinelli 	lmao
[12:59]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan)	I saw the message that Rod sent in the group talking about materials system in SL at the end of this year ¬ø?
[12:59]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "Will we get user defined object centers any time? It would solve the problems of LOD models and collision shapes not being aligned. Davido Chrome"
[12:59]	Al Supercharge 	I have a 133,000 phonetic dictionary u shd know
[12:59]	Prep Linden 	We have a Jira already filed for using an objects pivot point. There was some initial work done (there are actually numerous discussion in the mesh forums), but some server side work still needs to addressed.
[12:59]	Al Supercharge 	one of these days it could be usable
[13:00]	Prep Linden 	Not sure on the priority of this atm, but it's definitely something alot of residents want!
[13:00]	arton Rotaru 	YES
[13:00]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Well, the Lindens at these meetings said they aren't actively working on materisals yet. Possibly, TPV devs are. *shrugs*
[13:00]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan)	llSetAxis(<05, 0.5, 0.5>);
[13:00]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Question, was this the same thing Gaia mentioned in Agenda item 2?
[13:00]	Prep Linden 	nope
[13:01]	Nyx Linden 	last topic: "I know this meeting isn't Bug Triage but I would like to get a little insight on a bug that is holding up release of a new product: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-29200 Ardy Lay"
[13:01]	JIRA-helper 	[#VWR-29200] Prim faces bearing textures with alpha channels are appearing opaque until selected. - Second Life Bug Tracker
[13:01]	Geenz Spad 	Asha: a proposal's been submitted, but that's really all I can say about it :p
[13:02]	Prep Linden 	davido: some history on altering the pivot point: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/forums/searchpage/tab/message?filter=location&location=category%3AForums&q=pivot+point
[13:02]	Nyx Linden 	just checked the internal status, no patch yet, but its on the right person's backlog. I'll let them know that this is causing issues in particular.
[13:02]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Ahh, well. That is something positive at least, Geenz. Thanks :)
[13:02]	Ardy Lay 	Nyx, thanks.
[13:03]	Nyx Linden 	and that's all we have for this week!
[13:03]	Rusalka Writer 	Good meeting.
[13:03]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Thanks for the meeting.
[13:03]	Aki Shichiroji 	Thanks for the meeting :)
[13:03]	arton Rotaru 	good timing too^^
[13:03]	Nyx Linden 	thanks everyone for coming out, we'll be back next week, same time same location
[13:03]	jr (jr4201.kruyschek) 	all righty right, this was a cool session :)
[13:03]	Rusalka Writer 	Groovy.
[13:03]	Prep Linden 	have a good week folks! bye.
[13:03]	„Åç„Å§„Å≠„Åó„ÇÉ„Çì (kitsune.shan)	„ÉæÔºàÔø£„ÉºÔø£ÔºâÔæâbye byeÔºÅ
[13:03]	Aki Shichiroji 	Take care, all!
[13:03]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Do you have a link to the Jira that I can vote on? I would consider this a bug report rather than a feature request. Means you might need to have hidden geometry on models for things to lign up the way you want.
[13:03]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Bye Prep, Nyx
[13:03]	Nyx Linden 	minutes will be posted later today or sometime tomorrow.
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