Doc Team/2009-06-10

== Transcript ==
*[13:03 SLT] Yann Dufaux: hy jon :)
*[13:03 SLT] Jon Linden: it looks like there's plenty of seating this time, at least!
*[13:04 SLT] Wiki Scribe: until torley tweets about the meeting again ^^
*[13:04 SLT] Jon Linden: torley actually can't make it today, sadly
*[13:04 SLT] Wiki Scribe: ah I see
*[13:04 SLT] Oliver Szondi: awwwwww
*[13:04 SLT] Oliver Szondi: hope hes well
*[13:04 SLT] Dawny Daviau: awwww sorryyyyyy
*[13:04 SLT] Wyn Galbraith: Sorry was idle food arrived
*[13:04 SLT] Arawn Spitteler wonders at the tardiness of the day: Is it Torley Tweets that do it? It's quieter an more personal, without him, but might not be as much fun.
*[13:04 SLT] Jon Linden: i, his cruel taskmaster, have consigned him to work in the coal bins until he learns not to ask for extra gruel at morning meal
*[13:04 SLT] Wyn Galbraith: ah
*[13:04 SLT] Wyn Galbraith: hope he's ok
*[13:04 SLT] Oliver Szondi: nice jellow ta
*[13:04 SLT] Jeremy Linden: Doc team is very busy this week! Lots of changes a-coming.
*[13:04 SLT] Oliver Szondi: ops
*[13:05 SLT] Dawny Daviau: "Helllooooooo!"
*[13:05 SLT] Dawny Daviau: all
*[13:05 SLT] Jon Linden: it could also be that jeremy is telling the real story
*[13:05 SLT] WidgetHUD v1.2 (Mono): Jon Linden has pinged you.
*[13:05 SLT] Oliver Szondi: jellowar=Jelly av XD
*[13:05 SLT] Wyn Galbraith: Greetings!
*[13:05 SLT] Jeremy Linden: Actually, it was alien abduction.
*[13:05 SLT] Jon Linden: hello newcomers!
*[13:05 SLT] Jon Linden: is it alien abduction if the culprits were terrestrial?
*[13:05 SLT] Jeremy Linden: Jon's race of delicious gelatinous creatures have begun their invasion.
*[13:05 SLT] Yann Dufaux: sorry daniel lol
*[13:05 SLT] Jon Linden: reptoids from the center of the earth have taken him to one of their subterranean cities
*[13:06 SLT] Daniel Voyager: np
*[13:06 SLT] Yann Dufaux: MIEW! :)
*[13:06 SLT] Jon Linden: there he will toil to produce video tutorials for Hollow Life, an SL knockoff meant for denizens of the center of the under-earth
*[13:06 SLT] Oliver Szondi: LOLL
*[13:06 SLT] Arawn Spitteler tries to imagine living in a Sub-Trainian City
*[13:06 SLT] Yann Dufaux: hello Ella nice to see you:)
*[13:06 SLT] Oliver Szondi: is that the codename for blue mars? heh
*[13:07 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: You are sittin gon me
*[13:07 SLT] Wiki Scribe: eeeps, don't crush poor tux o.O
*[13:07 SLT] Jon Linden: as far as i can tell, there's nobody on the red couch
*[13:07 SLT] Bau Ur: pardon, sorry mojito.
*[13:07 SLT] Jon Linden: the black couch is also up for grabs
*[13:07 SLT] Arawn Spitteler: Why do I get a L$ Cursor, on that couch?
*[13:07 SLT] Yann Dufaux: grrr
*[13:07 SLT] Jon Linden: it's probably got a "buy" click action set
*[13:08 SLT] Arawn Spitteler: Should be Sit
*[13:08 SLT] Jon Linden: daniel voyager will be our torley stand-in for today
*[13:08 SLT] Oliver Szondi: LOL
*[13:08 SLT] Jeremy Linden: The creator of the couch must have sold it that way. I'm not selling it, myself... but I can't change that click-action because it's no-mod.
*[13:08 SLT] Oliver Szondi: Hey Dan *coughs* torley
*[13:08 SLT] Daniel Voyager: Friendly Greetings!
*[13:08 SLT] Bau Ur: Arwn lately I've been noticing prim drift and per reversions . SOmetimes if you set an object for sale at left-click, then set it back to default, it continues to act as if it were set to sell at left-click and that damned ugly green dollar sign appears when your cursor floats fver the objects.
*[13:08 SLT] Jon Linden chuckles
*[13:08 SLT] Jeremy Linden: Heh!
*[13:09 SLT] Morgaine Dinova: Jeremy: one of the problems of the current perms system
*[13:09 SLT] WidgetHUD v1.2 (Mono): Morgaine Dinova has pinged you.
*[13:09 SLT] Oliver Szondi: Jon, Jeremy how is Q&A going on the blogs?
*[13:09 SLT] WidgetHUD v1.2 (Mono): Oliver Szondi has pinged you.
*[13:09 SLT] Oliver Szondi: :D
*[13:09 SLT] Jeremy Linden: There's been a ton of activity, but I must admit I've been too busy working on other projects to form an accurate assessment!
*[13:10 SLT] Oliver Szondi: :DDD
*[13:10 SLT] Jon Linden: as have i
*[13:10 SLT] Oliver Szondi was the first to get 100 points on the system
*[13:10 SLT] Oliver Szondi: XD
*[13:10 SLT] Daniel Voyager: :D
*[13:10 SLT] Oliver Szondi: on the Q&A system XD
*[13:10 SLT] Oliver Szondi: i beat lexie linden at one point XDDDD
*[13:10 SLT] Jeremy Linden: I made the arguable mistake of subscribing to EVERY blog update in my RSS reader. That includes comments, posts, questions, and answers. I get a few hundred updates a day :-)
*[13:10 SLT] Jon Linden: i think jeska has better visibility into that
*[13:11 SLT] Oliver Szondi: LOL Yeah Jeremy
*[13:11 SLT] WidgetHUD v1.2 (Mono): Oliver Szondi has pinged you.
*[13:11 SLT] Jon Linden: blue is the one who'd know about blogs in general
*[13:11 SLT] Oliver Szondi: Thats why its going to my spam e-mail xd
*[13:11 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: I noticed something in a blog entry, that will eventually make it into the KB, etc. A stylistic thing that obscures an important point
*[13:11 SLT] Bau Ur: Does anyone know if there is a plan to ever make teh Reference ruler work right ?
*[13:12 SLT] Jeremy Linden: What's that, Mojito?
*[13:12 SLT] Jon Linden: is there something wrong with it?
*[13:12 SLT] Wiki Scribe: Kate won't be here either today? I was curious about a wiki edit she recently made...
*[13:12 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: In the recent blog explaining the final definitions of Adult Content, there is a list of items/activities that are considered adult.
*[13:12 SLT] Jon Linden: kate is also toiling in the coal bins
*[13:12 SLT] Wiki Scribe: eeeps
*[13:12 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: I know the first time *I* read that, my eye jumpted to that list
*[13:12 SLT] Wiki Scribe: ^^
*[13:13 SLT] Bau Ur: ah, tere is a final definition now? I must look at it. I thought it was still in development.
*[13:13 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: Missing the important words at the end of the paragraph just above
*[13:13 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: where it said "if you advertise or promote publically..."
*[13:13 SLT] Daniel Voyager: Check this out >> http://www.netvibes.com/danielvoyager#SL_Video_Tutorials
*[13:13 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: If you miss those words, you think the list applies to activities in a provate house in a Mature region, which is not true
*[13:13 SLT] Oliver Szondi: Jon, Jeremy a friend of mine has a ai bot thats using the Wiki as a search system. it then prints the wikipedia text into chat. with the KB project the bot will get more powerful :D
*[13:13 SLT] WidgetHUD v1.2 (Mono): Oliver Szondi has pinged you.
*[13:13 SLT] Yann Dufaux: salut laurent bienvenue! :) comment vas? :))
*[13:14 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: I find a lot of people being confused by this point
*[13:14 SLT] Laurent Bechir: bien et toi ?
*[13:14 SLT] Jon Linden: mojito, this is in a blog entry?
*[13:14 SLT] Jeremy Linden: That's fantastic, Oliver! Actually, that sort of project is one of the exact reasons why we're making the move.
*[13:14 SLT] Yann Dufaux: très bien merci! :D
*[13:14 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: Let me look it up.
*[13:14 SLT] Multi Gadget v1.57.1 by Timeless Prototype
*[13:14 SLT] Bau Ur: Thank you Daniel.
*[13:14 SLT] Oliver Szondi: :D
*[13:15 SLT] Daniel Voyager: :)
*[13:15 SLT] Jon Linden: the wiki is currently searchable using the All tab of the Search window
*[13:16 SLT] Jeremy Linden: Another helpful feature, to be sure.
*[13:16 SLT] Bau Ur: Mojito, the link please?
*[13:16 SLT] Jeremy Linden: Great avatar, Bio. Don't let Nintendo see that!
*[13:16 SLT] Bau Ur: I want to see ethe text you are talking about, ojito.
*[13:16 SLT] Daniel Voyager: Friendly Greetings!
*[13:16 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: I am trying to find it again
*[13:16 SLT] Bio Swindlehurst: sshhhhh then :)
*[13:17 SLT] Bio Swindlehurst: and hi everyone
*[13:17 SLT] Dawny Daviau: hiya
*[13:17 SLT] Morgaine Dinova: I wanted to query the definition of Adult content too, because it's fuzzy as hell in one respect: its use of the phrase "photorealistic nudity". That's almost impossible to interpret in a clear way in SL.
*[13:17 SLT] Bau Ur: heheh...neeewbie skins versus "Dark Desires" skins I suppose?
*[13:17 SLT] Oliver Szondi: id agree on that..the infomation provided is alittle unclear.
*[13:18 SLT] Jeremy Linden: Regardless, that's a good distinction to make. I'm sure we'll take the necessary stylistic precautions to make sure we communicate clearly :-)
*[13:18 SLT] Oliver Szondi: maybe we could get a video made :D
*[13:18 SLT] Wyn Galbraith: Does that cover photorealistic skins?
*[13:18 SLT] Bau Ur: yes, really it does not sem too unclear to me.
*[13:18 SLT] Oliver Szondi: *coughs* dan/Torley
*[13:18 SLT] Daniel Voyager: LOL
*[13:18 SLT] Gordon Wendt: oh god, is this going to be another one then I'll find another meeting to visit
*[13:18 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: Foubd it. It ios in the KB in fact. https://support.secondlife.com/ics/support/default.asp?deptID=4417
*[13:18 SLT] Jon Linden: we really don't determine adult guidelines
*[13:18 SLT] Morgaine Dinova: Jeremy: it's on the knowledgebase, so presumably there was thought given to it already. It's not just a matter of "style". It's trying to understand what is meant so there are no surprises.
*[13:18 SLT] WidgetHUD v1.2 (Mono): Morgaine Dinova has pinged you.
*[13:18 SLT] Gordon Wendt: another one of those meetings rather
*[13:18 SLT] Jon Linden: mojito, that's just the link to the KB
*[13:18 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: My observation is purely about the presentation, not the content
*[13:19 SLT] Bau Ur: For a while we did not have access to the full list of adult-content "red flag" search terms. Is that perhaps available now?
*[13:19 SLT] Wiki Scribe: ^_^ hi gordon
*[13:19 SLT] Jon Linden: can you supply us with the article ID #?
*[13:19 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: " Any Region must be designated Adult and therefore require account verification, if it advertises or publicly promotes the following:
*[13:19 SLT] Morgaine Dinova: Jon: not trying to query policy here --- trying to understand what you've written in the knowledgebase.
*[13:19 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: Maturity ratings: an overview
*[13:19 SLT] Bau Ur: Developing this poliscy must be really hard.
*[13:20 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: Second Life Info > Legal Matters > Policies >
*[13:20 SLT] Jon Linden: bau, for reasons of kb-6010
*[13:20 SLT] Jon Linden: whoops, ha
*[13:20 SLT] Jon Linden: kb-6010
*[13:20 SLT] WidgetHUD v1.2 (Mono): http://support.secondlife.com/ics/support/default.asp?deptID=4417&task=knowledge&questionID=6010
*[13:20 SLT] Gordon Wendt: Bau, double entandre there
*[13:20 SLT] Bau Ur: ?
*[13:20 SLT] Morgaine Dinova: First question: are SL avs (human ones) considered "photorealistic"?
*[13:20 SLT] Jon Linden: there we go
*[13:20 SLT] Jeremy Linden: Whew, turned that script back on just in time.
*[13:20 SLT] Bau Ur: Thank you.
*[13:20 SLT] Jon Linden: morgaine: not sure
*[13:20 SLT] Jon Linden: that's a legal question, not a language question
*[13:20 SLT] Morgaine Dinova: Jon: it's your knowledgebase, you'd better know what you write :P
*[13:21 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: The key phrase, " if it advertises or publicly promotes the following:" is buried at the end of the into paragraph. It needs ot be much more prominent
*[13:21 SLT] Jon Linden: i didn't write that definition
*[13:21 SLT] Jon Linden: our legal department did
*[13:21 SLT] Yann Dufaux: jon, i need to know if a official french tos is possible in next times! :)
*[13:21 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: I am not talking about the definition
*[13:21 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: I am talking ahbout typography
*[13:21 SLT] Gordon Wendt: Are there any updates to the kb2wiki project, figured I'd ask since it's been about a week since the page was updated ;)
*[13:21 SLT] Jon Linden: gordon, we're on track for launch
*[13:22 SLT] Morgaine Dinova: Well get a lawyer here then. From what they've written, they appear not to understand the impossibility of understanding their language.
*[13:22 SLT] Jon Linden: mojito: the phrase you're talking about is /in the intro paragraph/
*[13:22 SLT] Gordon Wendt: that's great although not very informative since there's no public timeline for that
*[13:22 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: Yes.
*[13:22 SLT] Jeremy Linden: I'm sure a lot of these definitions will be handled on a case-by-case basis. I imagine it will be nearly impossible to set forth 100% infallible parameters for what is and isn't "adult" vs "mature".
*[13:22 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: And it is very easily missed
*[13:22 SLT] Gordon Wendt: you've been listing to Phillip's school of PR statements right John? :)
*[13:22 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: the eye is drawn to the list. People want to see the list.
*[13:22 SLT] Bau Ur: Mojito I thought it was pretty clear.
*[13:22 SLT] Morgaine Dinova: It's pointless having a knowledgebase that nobody understands. How can this be resolved?
*[13:22 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: And they miss the big "IF" in front of it.
*[13:22 SLT] Jon Linden: i'm not sure i can put it any earlier without mangling it
*[13:22 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: Make that clause in bold at least
*[13:22 SLT] Wyn Galbraith: I guess it depends on the eye of the beholder.
*[13:23 SLT] Bau Ur: There are few ways to write well for people who will not read.
*[13:23 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: I suggest you do blind readin comprehension tests then
*[13:23 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: No, they DONT read.
*[13:23 SLT] Bau Ur: Mojito, do you think maybe jus putting it in boldface would be enough?
*[13:23 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: So put they key words up top, in bold, in the headfing.
*[13:23 SLT] Jeremy Linden: Would it help if we bolded or otherwise enhanced the words "advertises or publicly promotes"?
*[13:23 SLT] Bau Ur: ah, you just said bold :)
*[13:23 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: I do not hink bold is enough, but if it is all we can get.
*[13:23 SLT] Bau Ur: I was typing as you said that, :)
*[13:23 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: I would make it an tag
*[13:24 SLT] Arawn Spitteler: Filth, i'm glad to say, is in the ee of the beholder.
*[13:24 SLT] Gordon Wendt: Arawn, or if you come across it accidentally it's in the eek of the beholder :)
*[13:24 SLT] Gordon Wendt: I apologize for the above bad attempt at humor
*[13:24 SLT] Wyn Galbraith: We all have degrees of tolerance LOL Gorden
*[13:24 SLT] Bau Ur: :)
*[13:24 SLT] Wyn Galbraith: *Gordon
*[13:24 SLT] Wyn Galbraith: it was a good pun! one point for you
*[13:24 SLT] Jeremy Linden: It might warrant its own FAQ question, such as "Will my [X content] be considered Adult?".
*[13:25 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: You could add examples of what is NOT adult. Like a bed in your private house.
*[13:25 SLT] Yann Dufaux: this adult doccumentatio affraid me ...
*[13:25 SLT] Jeremy Linden: That would open the door for a more detailed explanation of the advertising and promoting.
*[13:25 SLT] Wyn Galbraith: No matter how you lay it out someone will find a loophole which will need to be dealt with at the time.
*[13:26 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: I think that is pretty clear - SEARCH and CLASSIFIED
*[13:26 SLT] Bau Ur: Are there palns for any changes to the Build/Create/Edit tools soon? Shoudl we assume that the tools as they are is pretty much how they are going to stay for a while? I notice that some old video tutorials show an old version of the UI for building. If there are not goign to be any changes soon, maybe it would be good to have new tutorials with the current menues and tools.
*[13:26 SLT] Gordon Wendt: It would be an about face for LL, so far every Linden statement I've seen is that they wouldn't do anything like that and handle it on a case by case basis without giving broad examples or precedents
*[13:27 SLT] Jeremy Linden: Mojito, if we start listing very specific examples, we run the risk of people trying to exploit the letter of the law. As stated in the existing article, we're going to be enforcing this policy based on a broad definition of "sexually themed".
*[13:27 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: I run into a lot of people who are upset by this change, simply because they do not understand it.
*[13:27 SLT] Gordon Wendt: from what I've read it seems that precedent is the real fear there, if they make a ruling on one person then that impacts their ability to rule on the next
*[13:27 SLT] Wyn Galbraith: One side benefit for me of SL is that I now understand building 3D in Bryce & up side of that is no prim limit, just can't share.
*[13:27 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: No, you give examples. Not an exhaustive list.
*[13:27 SLT] Jon Linden: Linden Lab's legal team is made up of some very busy people who are not at my personal beck and call -- thus, i cannot summon them here to answer to you immediately, nor would i want to; the definition of things like "photo-realistic" are, to my understanding, as good as they could have been made without being excessively restrictive or specific
*[13:28 SLT] Jon Linden: examples can be used as precedent, mojito
*[13:28 SLT] Wyn Galbraith: Case by case is the only real way you can deal with things since it's hard to guess what people might do
*[13:28 SLT] Jon Linden: it's potential paint for tight corners
*[13:28 SLT] Gordon Wendt: Mojito, you have a bunch of panicky, upset, scared residents, do you honestly think the majority of them will be able to tellt the difference, they'll warp and interpret that set of examples into divine law from above
*[13:28 SLT] Jon Linden: gordon brings up a valid point as well
*[13:28 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: Certainly. And I have heard LL lawyers (or somebody) in thoe brown bag meetings say explicitly that a bed in your privbate house does not come under the definition of adult.
*[13:28 SLT] Bau Ur: Precedent is instructive however. That is why law refers to precedents.
*[13:28 SLT] Gordon Wendt: Jon, if you makes you feel any better I'm quite happy not having legal anywhere within 5 sims of me virtually or otherwise
*[13:29 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: Now, if you list your house in search, and say you hold orgies all the time, then it is no longer private.
*[13:29 SLT] Gordon Wendt: doubly so withotu me having my own lawyer present
*[13:29 SLT] Jon Linden: honestly, the adult-oriented content controls are not anything to panic about
*[13:29 SLT] Jeremy Linden: Mojito, that's largely true, but if you were to advertise something like THIS BED IS FOR SEX, COME USE IT, then the bed inside a house becomes adult.
*[13:29 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: But all I started out with is a simple typographical change on that KB page, to make the conditional clause stand out more
*[13:30 SLT] Daniel Voyager: https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/technology/blog/2009/06/10/search-and-adult-content
*[13:30 SLT] Bau Ur: "we will not be clear because then people might hold us to our statements" is an obstacle to communication, and a disservice to people who would like to follow the rules. I thinkit is hard to be clear in these things, but i think posititve and negative examples really would be helpful.
*[13:30 SLT] Jeremy Linden: Heh. Noted and logged, Mojito. The stylistic change is within our sphere of influence, so thanks for pointing that out :-)
*[13:30 SLT] Morgaine Dinova: Jon: that's not adequate. If you can't define something tightly in the ToS, then it means that residents can never be sure if they're behaving well or conravening the ToS. And it means that individual Lindens can interpret the "law" any way they want, instead of the "law" being clearly written and known to all.
*[13:30 SLT] Wyn Galbraith: There is the story of the lady that called the police about the man next door parading around his house naked, she could see through his window. When the cop came she took him into the room and he couldn't see the guy through the window. The old lady then informed him, "oh officer, you have to stand on the dresser to see him."
*[13:31 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: Thank you Jeremy.
*[13:31 SLT] WidgetHUD v1.2 (Mono): Mojito Sorbet has pinged you.
*[13:31 SLT] Wyn Galbraith: That equates to throwing your camera into someone's privacy.
*[13:31 SLT] Jon Linden: did anyone go to the brown bag meetings? did photorealistic avatars come up there?
*[13:32 SLT] Gordon Wendt: The definitions for what actually constitutes private and public are vague too and change depending on what Linden you ask, some Lindens have said group chat and group notice isn't private because a large group isn't a very private setting, some have said anything short of events or public advertisements, there's no clear definition on that and that's a toughy for LL to deal with because it's legal, it's documentation, it's PR, it's G-Team, it's web team, and possibly more
*[13:32 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: I listened to the audio. I do not remember it coming up
*[13:32 SLT] Jon Linden: kb-6287
*[13:32 SLT] WidgetHUD v1.2 (Mono): http://support.secondlife.com/ics/support/default.asp?deptID=4417&task=knowledge&questionID=6287
*[13:32 SLT] Bau Ur: I respect LL's right to change anything at any time. I jsut think that, as things stand at any time, they ought to be as clear as possible. I sympathize though, because really it must be an ightmare. Explaining how anything splitteth the hoof and chewth not the cud...not fun :)
*[13:32 SLT] Jon Linden: there's a transcript of the first meeting about definitions
*[13:32 SLT] Jon Linden: photorealism is addressed there, it seems
*[13:32 SLT] Bau Ur: Hey good detective work Jon .
*[13:33 SLT] Jon Linden: "And just to be clear, when we say photo realistic, we don't mean avatars look more realistic than other avatars. We literally mean photos. And the types of nude photos that generally would be filtered out of say, a YouTube of a daily motion. That's more or less in line with European standards and US standards in terms of trying to filter off some of this activity on these types of platforms."
*[13:33 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: I have seen skins advrtised as "photo-real" that are anyting but.
*[13:33 SLT] Bau Ur: aha, phtoos of RL people.
*[13:33 SLT] Bau Ur: That's nicely clarified, then.
*[13:33 SLT] Bau Ur: Let's have that in the KB>
*[13:33 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: So making an avatar out of such RL photos would be over the line then.
*[13:33 SLT] Jeremy Linden: It appears to be in kb-6010
*[13:33 SLT] WidgetHUD v1.2 (Mono): http://support.secondlife.com/ics/support/default.asp?deptID=4417&task=knowledge&questionID=6010
*[13:33 SLT] Becky Pippen: Jon, that needs to be published as widely as possible.
*[13:33 SLT] Jon Linden: bau, dogg, that IS FROM the KB
*[13:33 SLT] Gordon Wendt: strange part to be specific about though considering that most of the images I've seen in SL that would qualify as photo realistic and mature in nature fall under the artistic exemption
*[13:33 SLT] Jeremy Linden: "photo-realistic means that an image either is or cannot be distinguished from a photograph"
*[13:34 SLT] Bau Ur: Good.
*[13:34 SLT] Bau Ur: That's nice.
*[13:34 SLT] Jon Linden: i believe morgaine's question was more about avatars
*[13:34 SLT] Wyn Galbraith: Only if the avatar's naughty bits are covered, that would be ok.
*[13:34 SLT] Morgaine Dinova: So does that mean that avatars never fall into the category of "photorealistic"?
*[13:34 SLT] Wyn Galbraith: They actually are bits, pixles
*[13:34 SLT] Wyn Galbraith: *pixels
*[13:34 SLT] Jon Linden: becky, i think there was a blog post that linked to all of these transcripts, as well as the audio
*[13:34 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: Not at the present state of technology
*[13:35 SLT] Wiki Scribe: once it's moved to the wiki, photorealistic should be linked to this specific explanation *note to myself* ^^
*[13:35 SLT] Gordon Wendt: I may have missed someone saying why because I came in late but no Torley today?
*[13:35 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: But consider, hentai anime is certainly adult, and in no way is it photorealistic
*[13:35 SLT] Gordon Wendt: I just realized that
*[13:35 SLT] Jon Linden: torley was carried off by tinies
*[13:35 SLT] Jon Linden: (he's busy with some of our many projects)
*[13:35 SLT] Jeremy Linden: I would say that it might be possible to make an avatar look photorealistic enough to fall under this category. However, it will remain a judgment call on the part of the enforcing Lindens.
*[13:35 SLT] Wyn Galbraith: Torley would think that fun
*[13:35 SLT] Gordon Wendt: Damn, I had some wiki things to ask him about
*[13:35 SLT] Bau Ur: I thnk everyone must be thoroughly tired of dealing with the Adult Content stuff.
*[13:36 SLT] Wiki Scribe: what kind of?
*[13:36 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: Yes. But I think clarity in explantation ill get us past that
*[13:36 SLT] Morgaine Dinova: Bau: it hasn't even started yet ^_^
*[13:36 SLT] Jon Linden: what sort of wiki things, gordon?
*[13:36 SLT] Gordon Wendt: I feel sorry for the doc team on this one, legal and G-Team have run doc and PR through the wringer on this one
*[13:36 SLT] Jon Linden: i'm happy to be a part of it
*[13:36 SLT] Jon Linden: honestly, it's something that many Residents have been asking for
*[13:37 SLT] Morgaine Dinova: I agree, it's Legal who should be going through the ringer. Most OH Lindens are being given a tough time only because Legal are too scared to come out to play.
*[13:37 SLT] Gordon Wendt: You may have missed my qustion before Jon but since you said that the kb2wiki rollout is on time and there's no public timeline to help us on the public end work to prep and anticipate that is there a plan to publish a timeline for the rollout?
*[13:38 SLT] Jeremy Linden: How are we doing so far? Have I said anything deplorable yet? ;-)
*[13:38 SLT] Morgaine Dinova: "Come out to play" == "Account for their writing"
*[13:38 SLT] Jon Linden: the spectrum of SL Residents is vast, and there are definitely some sets of people who want to be able to walk around inworld or use Search without having to deal with naked people and orgy bed advertisements
*[13:38 SLT] Gordon Wendt: " it's something that many Residents have been asking for", prepare to have that misconstrued and spread across the web soon :)
*[13:38 SLT] Gordon Wendt: every time a Linden says that it stirs up the mob
*[13:38 SLT] Bau Ur: I will be relieved when there is more segregation of content. I will perhaps be able to write grants for artistic and educational projects in SL which would at present be difficult to defend.
*[13:38 SLT] Morgaine Dinova: Jeremy: you're doing fine ... others are to blame, not yourselves. Unfortunately you're in the front line. :-(
*[13:38 SLT] WidgetHUD v1.2 (Mono): Morgaine Dinova has pinged you.
*[13:38 SLT] Jon Linden: what bau said
*[13:38 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: Being able to turn off those htings in search is actually useful,l when you are trying to find something simple - to make up for the simplicity of the available search algorithm.
*[13:39 SLT] Jeremy Linden: We actually started to establish a release date for kb2wiki today! I don't recall what we decided off the top of my head, though. Jon?
*[13:39 SLT] Jon Linden: morgaine, it's a complex legal issue that requires careful navigation
*[13:39 SLT] Gordon Wendt: Bau, the downside is fewer stories about how people had to fudge the truth slightly to get their projects in SL approved
*[13:39 SLT] Jon Linden: i'm reluctant to state a date publicly for fear that the doing of it will jinx it irrevocably
*[13:39 SLT] Gordon Wendt: and some of those stories are amusing
*[13:39 SLT] Skyblayde Magic: hmmm.. i ended up here anyway.
*[13:39 SLT] Skyblayde Magic: hello everyone.
*[13:40 SLT] Dawny Daviau: hiya
*[13:40 SLT] Jeremy Linden: Hello!
*[13:40 SLT] Jon Linden: good afternoon!
*[13:40 SLT] Skyblayde Magic: i apologize for that. i was just hunting arawn down..
*[13:40 SLT] Jeremy Linden: One of these days, I need to make a "PR evasion" gesture :-P
*[13:40 SLT] Gordon Wendt: Jon, I understand, we on the public end have been doing a lot of templating and other work to prepare the way but with still a lot of gaps in public info we're limited, that's why I asked
*[13:40 SLT] Skyblayde Magic: didnt mean to interrupt the party
*[13:40 SLT] Jon Linden: of course, gordon
*[13:40 SLT] Jon Linden: we appreciate this tremendously
*[13:41 SLT] Jon Linden: i will say that i'm hoping to get the style guide out before the week's done
*[13:41 SLT] Skyblayde Magic: style guide..
*[13:41 SLT] Skyblayde Magic: whats this i hear?
*[13:41 SLT] Gordon Wendt: I've got to start bribing Lindens soon to see about getting Zai the hippo this year for all the coding he's done on all the web templates
*[13:41 SLT] Skyblayde Magic is curious
*[13:42 SLT] Morgaine Dinova: I have a second question about interpreting the Adult Content rules in the knowlegdbase, but I'll leave that to another Linden's OH if you think it's more appropriate.
*[13:42 SLT] Gordon Wendt: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/KB2Wiki_Pilot
*[13:42 SLT] Jon Linden: the style guide will be an exhaustive, specific document that codifies all inworld styles that are to be considered acceptable by linden lab -- wings, hair, skirts, EVERYTHING
*[13:42 SLT] Gordon Wendt: that's the page with all the info so far btw
*[13:42 SLT] Jeremy Linden: Skyblayde, we're going to be starting a pilot program to move some of the knowledge base content from the Parature knowledge base into the wiki. In order to do so, we'll need to publish a style guide in order to keep all the articles somewhat uniform in flavor.
*[13:42 SLT] Jon Linden: or what jeremy said
*[13:42 SLT] WidgetHUD v1.2 (Mono): Jon Linden has pinged you.
*[13:43 SLT] Jon Linden: the style guide covers things like knowledge base article structure, text formatting, and terminology
*[13:43 SLT] Skyblayde Magic: this seems promising
*[13:43 SLT] Jeremy Linden: Things like "always use present tense" and "don't bold the period at the end of a sentence that ends with a bold word", and other such fun items :-)
*[13:43 SLT] Skyblayde Magic: would be very useful
*[13:43 SLT] Arawn Spitteler thiks we should still ahve one wiki page presented in the style of Grand Opera
*[13:43 SLT] Skyblayde Magic: oh god arawn
*[13:43 SLT] Skyblayde Magic: >_<
*[13:43 SLT] Jon Linden: what distinguishes a dialog from a window, whether to bold the name of a tab, etc
*[13:44 SLT] Bau Ur: I like clear definitions. I hate imprecise language but i often use it.
*[13:44 SLT] Gordon Wendt: You might want to clarify on the page the distinction between the style guide and existing guides on wiki pages, if appropriate maybe say the style guide has precedence only on KB articles if it's specific to writing those
*[13:44 SLT] Gordon Wendt: guides on editing wiki pages rather
*[13:45 SLT] Gordon Wendt: there are a few pages with guidelines to wiki page layout, I know there's a specific one just for LSL articles
*[13:45 SLT] Jeremy Linden: That's probably a smart move, Gordon. I imagine our style guide probably won't apply to things like LSL articles, or other more developer-related articles.
*[13:45 SLT] Jon Linden: it doesn't have much to say about wiki page layout either
*[13:45 SLT] Jon Linden: it's more concerned about language
*[13:46 SLT] Jon Linden: my hope is that its guidelines will propagate across the wiki through the power of community action
*[13:46 SLT] Gordon Wendt goes back to removing duplicates from the Office Hours page
*[13:46 SLT] Jon Linden: unifying all usage (where appropriate) under a vast umbrella of clarity
*[13:46 SLT] Skyblayde Magic: this would be a good way to do things
*[13:46 SLT] Skyblayde Magic: given that wiki never goes down,etc
*[13:46 SLT] Skyblayde Magic: i'd keep major backups
*[13:46 SLT] Bau Ur: puttig Linden names inalphabetical order there would be good too.
*[13:47 SLT] Gordon Wendt: Jon, I'll wait until the guide is out but there could be a set of templates for articles that need to be rewritten to conform to the style guide, similar to what Wikipedia has for articles that don't conform to their writing guides
*[13:47 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: On the OH page? No, chronological is better
*[13:47 SLT] Jeremy Linden is in the middle.
*[13:47 SLT] Skyblayde Magic: its never good to put all hopes in one area.. so making this compatable in many formats other than wiki
*[13:47 SLT] Arawn Spitteler: OfficeHours Page needs to be cross indexed
*[13:47 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: Also needs webcal to work
*[13:47 SLT] Vista Questi: I hope the world doesn't end up falling over it's own toes with all the rule-makingthat the average av won't understand, or care about. :P
*[13:47 SLT] Skyblayde Magic: will also give a big big factor, as i agree, recording of information is important
*[13:48 SLT] Gordon Wendt: Mojito, it's amazing that the webcal worked in the first place off of that but I'd like to rewrite that whole page
*[13:48 SLT] Gordon Wendt: it's all Zai's coding though so it would definitely require his consent and help to do so
*[13:48 SLT] Jon Linden: i'll be revising it some, but i really don't think this style guide i'm working on has anything to say about wiki page structure
*[13:48 SLT] Jeremy Linden: We will be using a wiki extension called "FlaggedRevs" that will hold back new edits to existing articles for review before they become the default version of that article. If I'm not mistaken, one of the parameters for those reviews is style.
*[13:48 SLT] Wiki Scribe: it's actually marvs coding. I just made minor fixes and helped to deploy it
*[13:49 SLT] Gordon Wendt: tentative flagrevs configuration
*[13:49 SLT] Skyblayde Magic: This would be a good way to do things, given that wiki never goes down, etc, If i were you i would keep major backups, its never good to put all hopes in one area.. so making this compatable in many formats other than wiki will also give a big big factor, as i agree, recording of information is important
*[13:49 SLT] Gordon Wendt: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Flagged_Revs_Configuration
*[13:49 SLT] Yann Dufaux accepted your inventory offer.
*[13:49 SLT] Gordon Wendt: that has the tentative settings for that as have been publicly announced
*[13:50 SLT] Gordon Wendt: Jeremy, I'm guessing that's what you were referring to
*[13:50 SLT] WidgetHUD v1.2 (Mono): Gordon Wendt has pinged you.
*[13:50 SLT] Jeremy Linden: Oh, whoops. I think style was a fourth parameter that I suggested at one of our internal meetings :-P
*[13:50 SLT] Jeremy Linden: Right now, we have Accuracy, Completeness and Clarity.
*[13:50 SLT] Skyblayde Magic: u just gotta watch out for people
*[13:50 SLT] Skyblayde Magic: thats all
*[13:50 SLT] Skyblayde Magic: didnt think greifers would be a problem at first eh?
*[13:50 SLT] Arawn Spitteler: What else is Style?
*[13:51 SLT] Gordon Wendt: Jeremy, well if the list stands from last I heard you have at least a few good names lined up to help handle flaggedrevs
*[13:51 SLT] WidgetHUD v1.2 (Mono): Gordon Wendt has pinged you.
*[13:51 SLT] Skyblayde Magic: security and stability. making something concrete and hard to steal and infringe upon, is really hard to do.
*[13:51 SLT] Arawn Spitteler: Griefers get watched for. I'm not sure how Wikis get away with existing, but that wasa first consideration
*[13:51 SLT] Jeremy Linden: Arawn, an article might be perfectly accurate, complete, and clear... but written in Old English or something. Style makes sure that all our articles read with roughly the same tone and visual style.
*[13:52 SLT] Bau Ur: hhmmm am not sure that such uniformity is appropriate.
*[13:52 SLT] Gordon Wendt: Arawn, a lot of people watching is how Wikipedia does it although they're system is very imperfect, for SLWiki it's probably more to do with fewer people and the account bound to character deterrent
*[13:53 SLT] Skyblayde Magic: so do you have it in other formats than wiki?
*[13:53 SLT] Bau Ur: Topics needed by newbies ought to be written at a level of painful detail, defining every term, not assuming much existing knowledge. Topics of interest to experienced people would naturally be different.
*[13:53 SLT] Skyblayde Magic: gordon?
*[13:53 SLT] Arawn Spitteler: PArature is a format it's mygrating from
*[13:53 SLT] Bau Ur: Different diction/vocabulary, different level of complexity, more assumptions of pre=existing knowledge .
*[13:53 SLT] Skyblayde Magic: bau, actually there is a problem with that...
*[13:53 SLT] Gordon Wendt: have what?
*[13:54 SLT] Jeremy Linden: Bau, I believe our style guide will allow for that. We're worried largely about the technical details-- what to expect when we're referring to a button vs. a tab, for instance.
*[13:54 SLT] Skyblayde Magic: most people consider themselves newbies at first start of everything. but that doesnt mean they are unintelligent. if it is written in a special format. things can be learned faster, as known in "Suggestology" and Suggestopedia"
*[13:54 SLT] Arawn Spitteler: Neophytes want to know everything at once; so might as well keep it complete, with sufficient( excessive) Clicking
*[13:55 SLT] Skyblayde Magic: you could revolutionize the way people learn by learning to write it in a way that affirms their intelligence rather than degrades it
*[13:55 SLT] Gordon Wendt: Speaking of being able to learn easily, any chance of getting the link to random page put on the left sidebar on the wiki, I think it's a default setting and easily turned on but it's off for some reason on the sl wiki
*[13:55 SLT] Jeremy Linden actually goes out of his way to remove condescending or patronizing language in the KB when he finds it.
*[13:55 SLT] Bau Ur: Writing with the understanding that your audience lacks background is not degrading. IT is helpful.
*[13:55 SLT] Skyblayde Magic: what i mean by this is real life accelerated learning. and not teaching it in a format thats normally used in schools or universities.
*[13:55 SLT] Gordon Wendt: going to Special:Random every time I want to go to a random page is a pain
*[13:55 SLT] Skyblayde Magic: its simple
*[13:56 SLT] Gordon Wendt: going by hand I mean
*[13:56 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: It is difficult to write fo rmultiple audiences.
*[13:56 SLT] Skyblayde Magic: teaching it in a positive aspect, and not making them feel dumb or get bored with it, would be the first step
*[13:56 SLT] Skyblayde Magic: using humor is important
*[13:56 SLT] Skyblayde Magic: it keeps attention
*[13:56 SLT] Wiki Scribe: I'm not sure if a random page is a benefit. especially since we got more than one language in the wiki. when I remember right, then Rob removed to to de-clutter the sidebar. since people are already overlooking the important links
*[13:56 SLT] Arawn Spitteler: It's an art, rather than a Science.
*[13:56 SLT] Skyblayde Magic: and using ways to hold their attention is important art
*[13:57 SLT] Skyblayde Magic: yes thank you arawn
*[13:57 SLT] Skyblayde Magic: i suggest you lookup Suggestology
*[13:57 SLT] Skyblayde Magic: and Suggestopedia
*[13:57 SLT] Gordon Wendt: Wiki, it would be nice to be able to add it per account
*[13:57 SLT] Jeremy Linden: Humor helps, but we also have to keep our international audience in mind. Many who read the KB do not speak English as a first language, so we have to be very careful what kind of "humor" and colloquial phrases we use.
*[13:57 SLT] Gordon Wendt: there may be a monobook.js hack to do it and if so that would work better
*[13:57 SLT] Jon Linden: folks, i want to thank you for coming to this week's office hour -- i've got to run! i have a meeting, but i also have to attend to certain biological needs
*[13:57 SLT] Skyblayde Magic: these new kids out there are a heck of alot smarter than we ever might have guessed, and they are now becoming older. so ur gonna run into a crapload of genious's
*[13:57 SLT] Jon Linden: please do come back next week
*[13:57 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: Is translating the KB part of the internationalization project?
*[13:57 SLT] Jon Linden: and have a good one in the meantime!
*[13:57 SLT] Wiki Scribe: hm... I wouldn't be aware of, though I got to admit that I hardly fiddled with the monobook.js
*[13:57 SLT] Vista Questi: ur human is WEAK! :3
*[13:57 SLT] Jon Linden: (you can, of course, stick around)
*[13:58 SLT] Jon Linden: be well!
*[13:58 SLT] Bau Ur: Good point Jeremy. For readers of English as a foreign language, the most literal and noncolloquial language is better.
*[13:58 SLT] WidgetHUD v1.2 (Mono): Bau Ur has pinged you.
*[13:58 SLT] Jeremy Linden: There is actually a project underway to translate the KB into several languages. The results are already on the wiki :-)
*[13:58 SLT] Arawn Spitteler: Jon Muss Mal Pipi?
*[13:58 SLT] Skyblayde Magic: trust me on this much. Ask them how they like to learn, and they'll give suggestions
*[13:58 SLT] Wiki Scribe: @Mojito: It's part of the localization project, have a look at "CT Projects" in the wiki
*[13:58 SLT] Morgaine Dinova: Although writing is an art more than a science, *some* parts need to be written as precisely as possible, to the point of pedantry, namely those that can get people in trouble if they're misunderstood.
*[13:58 SLT] Skyblayde Magic: just give it a shot
*[13:58 SLT] Laurent Bechir: Jeremy : you're wright, and this specially for translators. It is difficult sometimes to translate english idioms or humour
*[13:58 SLT] WidgetHUD v1.2 (Mono): Laurent Bechir has pinged you.
*[13:58 SLT] Skyblayde Magic: and dont forget "Skyblayde"
*[13:58 SLT] Skyblayde Magic: :)
*[13:58 SLT] Skyblayde Magic: ttyl
*[13:58 SLT] Skyblayde Magic: ready arawn?
*[13:58 SLT] Wiki Scribe: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/CT_Projects
*[13:58 SLT] Gordon Wendt: Wiki, I've heard from at least one source that the .css and .js pages might not be working properly on the sl wiki but I'll admit I haven't had much of a chance either, all I know is from my enwiki time hacking those two pages to make wikipedia dance when I was logged in
*[13:58 SLT] Arawn Spitteler: I need a nap, at this point.
*[13:59 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: Although ability to at least read English is relativly common, I know from personal experience that it is not so in Japan.
*[13:59 SLT] Jeremy Linden: I wish Rand was here this week; he'd know a lot more about the mechanics of how the SL wiki is configured.
*[13:59 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: Sorry, relatively common in EUROPE.
*[14:00 SLT] Jeremy Linden: Indeed! In fact, one of the phrases I once removed from the KB referred to "particles all up in your business". I imagine you can see how that might be confusing if taken literally :-)
*[14:00 SLT] Arawn Spitteler: Pretending we can read English is relatively common in the US
*[14:00 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: lol
*[14:00 SLT] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
*[14:00 SLT] Gordon Wendt: Jeremy, I'll drop a line to rob in irc, if he disabled it he'd be the one to talk to about the special:random and I can hunt down someone about js and css
*[14:00 SLT] WidgetHUD v1.2 (Mono): Gordon Wendt has pinged you.
*[14:00 SLT] Wyn Galbraith: LOL
*[14:01 SLT] Jeremy Linden: Yes, Rob's one of our premier wiki gurus. He's one very busy Linden, though!
*[14:01 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: I am involved with a group of people who put on dance performances. Japnese themsed even. I inquired about them performing in some of the Japnese sims.
*[14:01 SLT] Mojito Sorbet: The people there told me, they would be glad to have them, but the promotional annoucements and signs HAD to be in Japanese, or nobody woiuld come
*[14:01 SLT] Morgaine Dinova: Well reading English isn't as high as it used to be in the UK either. The usual, social problems combined with little incentive for teachers.
*[14:02 SLT] Gordon Wendt: Jeremy, indeed so I don't like to bug him even though he always seems happy to spare a moment when I do
*[14:02 SLT] WidgetHUD v1.2 (Mono): Gordon Wendt has pinged you.
*[14:02 SLT] Gordon Wendt: that's probably contigent on people never abusing that though
*[14:02 SLT] Wiki Scribe: @Gordon: Rob just stripped it off https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/MediaWiki:Sidebar
*[14:03 SLT] Gordon Wendt: wow, that was a long time ago
*[14:03 SLT] Jeremy Linden: At any rate, I'm happy to see so many of you excited about our kb2wiki project. It will be extremely awesome to have your support once we make the first public launch.
*[14:03 SLT] Bau Ur: I'ts a good idea.
*[14:03 SLT] Wiki Scribe: lookin forward to :-)
*[14:03 SLT] Wyn Galbraith supports change as it's never boring.
*[14:04 SLT] Arawn Spitteler: The various Teaching Methods basicqally amount to a conspiracy to exclude those lower class peoples, who do not teach their own children to sound out the words, or to discourse on the level of great writers. We'd better not tell that to the stupid people, though, or they might start to get the good jobs.
*[14:04 SLT] Wyn Galbraith: Give Torley my best, hope he's fine.
*[14:04 SLT] Gordon Wendt: Jeremy, how goes the plan to use resident volunteers for that btw?
*[14:04 SLT] WidgetHUD v1.2 (Mono): Gordon Wendt has pinged you.
*[14:04 SLT] Morgaine Dinova: We had a problem with over-clever wiki structuring back when AWG was active. One "contributor" was exercising his skills so expertly that nobody else could understand it nor modify it.
*[14:04 SLT] Gordon Wendt: all I've seen are old conversations on teh topic
*[14:04 SLT] Jeremy Linden: Heheh. Torley's alright, he's just working hard on some critical KB and video updates :-)
*[14:04 SLT] Gordon Wendt: *the
*[14:05 SLT] Arawn Spitteler: New Videos?
*[14:05 SLT] Wyn Galbraith: Cool, neve vids
*[14:05 SLT] Wyn Galbraith: *new
*[14:05 SLT] Arawn Spitteler: I asume we're talking expert on the level of Profsky?
*[14:05 SLT] Jeremy Linden: As for Resident volunteers, we'll definitely be promoting some Residents to Reviewer status, but I don't know if we've decided yet what our criteria will be.
*[14:05 SLT] Wyn Galbraith *coughs
*[14:06 SLT] Vista Questi: that's a pretty negative View, Arwan.. many have found their own way of organizing information
*[14:06 SLT] Morgaine Dinova: Arawn: no no, no sarcasm intended. He was truly expert to the point of no longer making it a wiki but an HTML website.
*[14:06 SLT] Jeremy Linden: Snipping here for the transcript...
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Category: Documentation Office Hours