Content Creation Improvement Informal User Group/Archive/July 10th, 2012 Meeting

15:01 	Geenz Spad  	welcome everyone to today's meeting!
  	Keli Kyrie  	Hello everyone. :)
  	Asha  	Hi Keli
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	Geenz, your chair seems hungry
  	Geenz Spad  	we're going to be taking a slightly different approach to today's meeting, wherein the first 15 minutes will be dedicated to JIRA discussion
  	Elie Spot  	wow that stage is like 8 miles away from the commoners
15:02 	Geenz Spad  	I blame Selkit :p
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	:3
  	Asha  	lol
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	Always blame the mustelid. :c
  	Braydon Randt  	i can still hit um with my shoe
  	Geenz Spad  	we'll move the chairs up on the next one
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	Hey! I'm not Dubya or Saddam. No shoes! D:
  	Geenz Spad  	so anyways, anyone have any JIRAs related to content creation up?
  	Yuzuru  	Hello Nalates.
  	Nal  	Hey Yuz
  	Asha  	Heya Nal
  	Nal  	Asha :)
  	Martin RJ  	hi all
15:03 	Siddean Munro  	I have a really really really old one that will never get fixed! :)
  	tauber Paola von Tauber 	well i have one but it's not on the agenda: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-27189
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	I have a JIRA from 2007 still alive, Siddean. :C
  	  	Completely not content-related, however.
  	Geenz Spad  	it doesn't have to be on the agenda, so long as it's relating to content creation
  	Keli Kyrie  	There is also this Jira https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-29210
  	Geenz Spad  	cloth simulation was actually briefly touched on at one of the open-dev meetings a while back
  	tauber Paola von Tauber 	it's about cloth simulation :D
15:05 	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	I think sometime before next meeting, I need to re-engineer this build. Was made for SL9B. :P
15:06 	Geenz Spad  	I can bring up Keli's JIRA at the next open-dev; not sure if Oz or one of the open source developers know about that one
  	  	I'll keep that one in mind
  	Keli Kyrie  	Oz does I have talked to him about that one
  	Geenz Spad  	ah
  	Martin RJ  	Geenz we have talked with Oz about it at the last meeting
15:07 	  	he said it was the bug that blocked the dev-branch from going to beta
  	Geenz Spad  	it's a shame I overslept then :P
  	  	right
  	Martin RJ  	but since the beta is out, they probably fixed it.
  	Geenz Spad  	can anyone confirm this one in the beta?
15:08 	Keli Kyrie  	There was a new Beta released on July 8... I don't know if it is in that one but before July it was
  	Nal  	We need a JIRA helper here...
  	Martin RJ  	I assume it's fixed in Second Life 3.3.4 (261355)
  	Geenz Spad  	I'm going to ask Oz about that
15:09 	Siddean Munro  	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SH-2103
  	Koli Melune  	Strange, doesn't repro in 3.3.5.
  	Martin RJ  	but I didn't have a chance to test it myself
  	Geenz Spad  	it may have been fixed, but if not, bring it up at the next open dev
  	  	or even if it is, bring it up anyways :)
15:10 	Keli Kyrie  	Cool :)
  	Geenz Spad  	SH-2103 -- looks like a problem with the avatar mesh's UVs
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	Inclined to agree with Geenz, but I'd have to poke at the models themselves.
  	  	UV overflow, maybe.
15:11 	Geenz Spad  	keep the JIRA's coming everyone
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	Nasty one to try and fix, without breaking a heap of legacy content. Hate to say it, but the base SL avatar mesh is showing its age a bit.
  	Maxwell Graf  	The devil you say!
  	Siddean Munro  	I don't believe it's anything more than just changing some of the alphas
  	Geenz Spad  	hm
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	Not quite that simple.
  	Geenz Spad  	will need to look into that one a bit further
15:12 	Vivi  	It should be possible to update the avatar whilst retaining legacy UV mapping for legacy content? Or offer a switch to allow "use legacy model"
  	Geenz Spad  	from what I'm told, touching the existing avatar mesh is a bit of a no-no for now
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	That's one possible solution; The usual Linden policy of "Does it break legacy" probably applies in all cases.
  	Vivi  	and that gap is the alpha layers anyway, it's not the avatar model, the gap isn't there on the jacket layer
15:13 	Geenz Spad  	I believe they're working on a few things behind the scenes to make it possible in the future htough
  	  	and if it's the alpha layers, then we can probably put together a fix
  	Elie Spot  	Improvement can be made without breaking content, its most likely
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	Yup.
  	Elie Spot  	^ what vivienne said
15:14 	Siddean Munro  	There are a bunch of textures under characters in the SL viewer, Shirt_bottom_alpha is the one with the issue
  	Geenz Spad  	that helps
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	Insufficient seam allowance made, likely.
  	Geenz Spad  	have you tried modifying it?
  	Vivi  	I've tried modifiying that to resolve the issue myself but replacing the texture causes a client crash, would have to be in source and compiled with the fix as the target file, size mismatch or something
  	Siddean Munro  	I can't remember, it was 2007 :p
15:15 	Geenz Spad  	...huh
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	The years do blur a bit, don't they. ;)
  	Geenz Spad  	well that's interesting
  	April Looming  	Is there any plan to add more bones to support the new deformer?
  	Allegory Malaprop  	there is something special in the way they've cmopressed the image
  	Geenz Spad  	I don't have any information on that, sorry April
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	To my knowledge, April, adding new bones to the existing avatar mesh is easier said than done.
15:16 	Geenz Spad  	shall we get in another JIRA before moving on?
15:17 	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	Future changes may alleviate that, but going with the mesh as it is, altering the skeleton will break legacy content in several areas.
  	dahlia1337 resident  	adding bones shouldnt break existing content that dont reference them
  	Elie Spot  	adding bones wouldnt break anything
  	  	^
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	That one was actually explored back in 2006 or so for us silly furries to have actual tails. :P
15:18 	Geenz Spad  	alright, if no one else has anything to bring up in terms of JIRAs, we'll continue discussing morph targets from last week
15:19 	Siddean Munro  	Looks like that's it for Jiras
15:20 	Geenz Spad  	for those of you who weren't here, a morph target is a special shape that defines how a mesh should "deform" when a certain parameter is increased or decreased
  	Siddean Munro  	Blender calls them Shape Keys
  	Geenz Spad  	our discussions from last week mostly looked at how this could work with regards to content creators and its usage in-world
15:21 	Maxwell Graf  	mesh genitals, finally.
  	Asha  	lol
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	...*facepalm*
  	  	Trust me, I think SL's already well on that task.
  	Braydon Randt  	O.o :P
15:22 	Geenz Spad  	now, to some degree this could be seen as yet another mesh deformer alternative; although it's one that would in theory be more flexible than cBones and Qarl's deformer, and would put content creators in complete control over how a mesh "deforms"
  	Asha  	Yes, that's old news Max. :p
  	Maxwell Graf  	with morph targets though, think of the advancements!
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	Anyone have two cents on the matter? Operating mechanics? Influence on land impact?
  	Siddean Munro  	It's hard to speculate on that really without some kind of testing opportunity
15:23 	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	Hard to get a testing opportunity together without a basic framework.
  	Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy  	And really, Land Impact is only really relevant for items to be rezzed, if the morph is to be used for clothing/avatarshapes it won't matter about LI so much
  	Geenz Spad  	at first at least
  	Asha  	I just remember that during beta, the Linden at charge at that time said that it would be bad to use morphs. He never went into detail other than it would increase the downloads.
  	  	*in charge
  	Nal  	Do we have any idea whether it will require changes to the viewer, server, or data to implement?
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	I'm of the firm opinion that avatars need to have a quota of some type, but that's another matter entirely.
  	Geenz Spad  	I've gotten a bit of feedback on that Nal
15:24 	Braydon Randt  	meaning .. it would increase the work that hadnt been planned for
  	Asha  	Well...I think he just prefered custom skeletons and didn't understand how morphs are more robust for certain types of deformations,
15:25 	Geenz Spad  	it would require some changes on the format side of things, and the server would need to be able to recognize the format
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	Asha; Morphs do tend to add a bit more to filesize.
  	Esprite Xavier  	morph targets are kinda intense compared to skeleton animations though isn't it?
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	And bandwidth is a concern factored into land impact.
  	Nal  	...so that is viewer, server, and data, yes?
  	Geenz Spad  	work wise?
  	Esprite Xavier  	work wise, render wise
  	Geenz Spad  	and yes Nal, though the server work would probably be a bit minimal depending on how this is handled
15:26 	Esprite Xavier  	more data too
  	Asha  	Oh, I'm sure it adds to file size.
  	Geenz Spad  	and work-wise, it shouldn't any more difficult to work with than rigging; infact in theory it should be easier
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	As mentioned, yes, more data. Bandwidth on both CPU throughput and network traffic.
  	Geenz Spad  	render-wise, it'd actually be faster than Qarl's deformer
15:27 	Esprite Xavier  	compared to bones though it's not really super efficient, just wondering what kinda limitations there will be for the number of targets, doing an animation with them would be pretty intense right?
  	Asha  	But, people are already using huge file sizes for things that they don't need to. At least, increased file size for added morphs make sense. Perhaps, they could make a file size limit.
  	Nal  	Is there anyway to test what the render time differecne would be?
  	Geenz Spad  	not really
15:28 	  	let me elaborate about how these would work
  	Braydon Randt  	that goes back to what is acceptable use on AV meshes really doesnt it
15:29 	Geenz Spad  	work-wise, a morph target is typically a special kind of vertex map (or whatever the equivalent is in your modeling software of choice); you literally are just moving around vertices that makes up the morph target
  	  	there's no need to change your rigging, it should "just work" with the new morph
  	  	it'd effectively allow one to "sculpt" how they think a piece of clothing should deform
15:30 	Nal  	So, we would build a Morph Target like we do an LoD layer?
  	Braydon Randt  	or would be have set morph targets .. like we done bones
  	Asha  	The dae file schematic supports morphs.
  	Geenz Spad  	rendering-wise, it'd be faster than Qarl's solution, simply because it only adds a single step: interpolating the new vertex positions
15:31 	Siddean Munro  	I think it'd be a setting on the actual mesh rather than be a separate mesh like LOD meshes are
  	Geenz Spad  	and sort of Nal, really it varies from modeling package to modeling package
  	Allegory Malaprop  	on most programs it is, yes. it's more akin to setting an extra animation keyframe on the existing mesh
15:32 	Elie Spot  	^^ cool!
  	Braydon Randt  	i have a question .... can we have " zones" that we can apply to vertex groups ..... with that in mind .... any value can be applied to the vertex group for that " zone"
  	Nal  	It sounds like one would have a mesh that is sculpted into various shapes on various key frames. SO, rather than weight paint, we model, yes/no?
  	Geenz Spad  	I imagine some kind of "morph group" functionality would be required from the get-go for the sake of making it work with the avatar mesh properly, Braydon
15:33 	Siddean Munro  	Braydon the way they work is you set a shape key for Belly and then change the model to what it would look like with the belly slider at max
  	Geenz Spad  	Nal: sort of, have you ever worked with a program called ZBrush?
  	Siddean Munro  	or morph target, rather than shape key
  	Nal  	Basically no. I'm mostly Blender
  	Geenz Spad  	ah, then have you ever used Blender's sculpting functionality?
  	Braydon Randt  	<blender & zbrush
15:34 	Nal  	I have... Scult Mode.
  	Asha  	In Blender, the shape keys (morphs)are seperate from the weights Nal.
  	Siddean Munro  	And I think weighting is still necessary
  	Asha  	*separate
  	Elie Spot  	it makes sense that weighting would still be necessary
  	Asha  	Yes, you'd still need to weight the item.
  	Elie Spot  	as morph targets wouldn't affect the movement of your garment just the sizing
  	Geenz Spad  	well, creating a morph target would be creating a new shape key, and literally "sculpting" how you want it to look when someone sets a parameter to their max, minimum, or what have you
  	Asha  	But, you only need to weight it once for the most part.
  	Esprite Xavier  	I guess in some ways morph targets would be easier to understand the alternatives are kinda complicated to create for and or not supported easily
15:35 	Asha  	Yes, animating a face with bones is like the tenth level of hell to the average person when compared to doing it with morph targets.
  	Braydon Randt  	shape keys aka morph targets would give a better flexability and the ability to better decide how the garment would "morph" at different values
  	Elie Spot  	^^
15:36 	  	so lets make it happen xD
  	Siddean Munro  	So what do we need to get some kind of testing or prototype?
  	Allegory Malaprop  	on the difficult technical side: your custom morph targets would have to match up with the avatar's morph targets. anywhere you don't have an alpha, that gets just as fussy as weighting for joint movement.
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	As Asha said. Fiddle with fussy muscle and bone groups to get a smile, or sculpt the smile and tween.
  	Asha  	Yes, but matching the morphs in your 3D program is not difficult.
  	Braydon Randt  	hense why i said about " zones" ... so when you increase your ass .... your face done gett bigger *lol*
  	Geenz Spad  	for a prototype, we first need to write a proposal to give to the lab
  	Elie Spot  	^ allegory - it would be good to have the deformer as an alternative in that case, because it would be a lot of work, but also the flexibility would be amazing
15:37 	Siddean Munro  	Braydon that's up to the creator of the item :)
  	Allegory Malaprop  	the deformed matches up to the current morph targets automatically- the avatar mesh is not morph targeted (especially for extreme shapes) especially well, which is why the deformer has the issues it does- matching up to that with cutom morph targets will run into similar issues.
15:38 	Siddean Munro  	I'm hoping we can have the option of both Alle. :)
  	Geenz Spad  	now, this proposal needs to include a clear vision as to how it should work with regards to user-facing content, how it should work with regards to the content creators, and how it should work on the lab's side of things
15:39 	Asha  	It would be nice if you could have access to the morphs through LSL.
  	Geenz Spad  	the user-facing side I feel is fairly obvious; the user adjusts their shape, and their clothing deforms
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	I would imagine any viable proposal at all, Asha, would have to have a plan for how it ties into LSL.
  	Elie Spot  	is there any way we can incorporate physics into this? i know that was something LL placed a higher priority on
  	Geenz Spad  	well, I think that depends really
  	Elie Spot  	*avatar physics
  	Geenz Spad  	on both Elie and Selkit's comments
  	Braydon Randt  	so .... clothes cant fit ... but hell .. your boobs will bounce well
15:40 	Anouk Spot  	hahah
[15:40] AshaAsha snorts
  	Geenz Spad  	we should think about what would be best for a "version one" release
  	Toast Bard  	haha
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	Build a frame to hang the shinies on.
  	Braydon Randt  	no wonder .... LL priority ... tits and ass * lol*
  	Elie Spot  	if LL accepts a versoin 1 without physics im fine w/ it haha
  	  	just wondering if it can be incorporated
  	  	at some poitn
  	  	typos!
  	Geenz Spad  	I'm sure LL would want that in version 1 :P
  	Asha  	I'd assume Qarl's deformer would have to address avatar physics.
15:41 	Elie Spot  	i have a feeling they'll want that too yah
  	Geenz Spad  	Qarl's deformer actually does it automatically
  	Asha  	Yes right
  	Allegory Malaprop  	physics is using a similar system for its movement. it would not be impossible to build in at the same time
  	Elie Spot  	so in defining our own morph targets would we also have to define phyrics movement?
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	Physics is something that more or less has to enter in the first step. Anyone else remember prim joints and Havok 4? ;)
  	Geenz Spad  	somewhere in the proposal I'm sure Elie
15:42 	Elie Spot  	or could this be automatic
  	  	i cant stop making typos my apologies!!!
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	Quite alright!
  	Asha  	The problem with physics is that we'd need a reference in our modelers too make the morphs around.
  	Geenz Spad  	but I can speak with some people at LL to find out if they'd really want that in version 1; they do have an influence on what will go into the proposal from a requirements point of view
  	Asha  	*to even
  	Siddean Munro  	Geenz is there anyone that you would suggest work on this proposal? I can provide some input but I think we need to get moving on it soon.
15:43 	Elie Spot  	good idea Geenz, best to find out how they'll respond to a version 1 with or without physics support
  	  	maybe before we do the proposal? idk
  	Geenz Spad  	right, I can't suggest anyone in particular off the top of my head, but I do think we need to keep this one open ended; how about for the next meeting, we open the floor to everyone's ideas?
  	Siddean Munro  	Ok
15:44 	Geenz Spad  	from there Siddean and I can begin working on a draft
  	Asha  	Sounds good Geenz
  	Nal  	The proposal is good. But, how do we get Qarl moving on the Mesh Deformer? He is waiting for us to make a consensus, which sucks.
  	Siddean Munro  	Cool with me
  	Elie Spot  	sounds good!
  	  	well in this case, morph targets wouldn't replace the deformer right?
  	Geenz Spad  	Nal, that actually gets into #5 on the agenda, but if Paola wouldn't mind us going ahead with that, we can discuss that now
  	Braydon Randt  	at the moment ... we have nothing ...... so we cant go wrong .. we just need to be consistant
15:45 	Asha  	Well, I think the mophs are a bit of a different deal from cbones versus deformer (albeit some overlap).
  	Nal  	Or do it in oder NP with that
  	Elie Spot  	ah right
  	Asha  	*morphs
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	Elie, Asha; Features in SL are rarely mutually exclusive. There's likely room for both.
  	Geenz Spad  	right, well, on the subject of the deformer
  	Elie Spot  	agreed selkit
  	Geenz Spad  	during our last meeting, people seemed to want both
  	Asha  	It would be great to have both Selkit.
  	Elie Spot  	i def want both
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	Applications for both, in fact. Prims are not obsolete simply because we have mesh and sculpts.
  	Geenz Spad  	now, the current hold up on the deformer is, do people want Qarl to continue with it
15:46 	Elie Spot  	custom morph targets are really advanced, i don't think everyone should have to do that
  	  	heck yes
  	Siddean Munro  	I do because at the moment we have nothing at all and it's really holding back content development
  	Geenz Spad  	what Qarl currently wants is a consensus on whether people want his solution, or would have another solution, or want both
  	Elie Spot  	yeah, and even with morph targets i feel like it would still be used
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	My opinion leans towards both.
  	Elie Spot  	for people who dont want to do all that work
  	Maxwell Graf  	I think it would be crazy to abandon all the work he has done so far, and not simply because a lot of us paid for it.
  	Vivi  	Given that the deformer work Qarl is doing works with physics and all avatar sliders, vs the alternate method that uses the bones of the collision skeleton that doesn't work with physics and doesn't work with all sliders
  	Asha  	To my mind, Qarl's deformer and morphs would work pretty well and cover many issues from custom AVs, fixing size issues and opening up mesh animation.
15:47 	Elie Spot  	it will be extremely valuable to have both, for a lot of reasons imho
  	  	and for content creators to have a choice
  	Vivi  	and complimentary solutions are not a bad thing really
  	Siddean Munro  	Absolutely
  	Elie Spot  	^^ agree
  	Geenz Spad  	if you have an opinion regarding this, I implore you to speak up! I'll most definitely talk to Qarl about it
  	Siddean Munro  	Can we comment on his blog about it?
15:48 	Geenz Spad  	that you can!
  	Elie Spot  	who wants both? do we all?
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	I don't see why not.
  	Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy  	Yeah, I'm in favour of both
  	Elie Spot  	i do!
  	Anouk Spot  	i would want both
  	Siddean Munro  	I wasn't aware that he was waiting for anyone to give him the go ahead
  	Nal  	I would like all that I can get...
  	tauber Paola von Tauber 	from a mere consumer point of view, yes please! :D
  	Asha  	Both would be cool with me.
  	Maxwell Graf  	As I stated on Metareality last week, Id prefer, at this point, ANY solution that is going to 1) work the best and 2) do so with a minimum of additional work required by the designer during the creation process.
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	Both seems to be fairly unanimous as a view.
  	Vivi  	and from what I understand the deformer is much closer to being reality, morph targets would require longer development time, the deformer project would give content creators (and users!) an enhanced toolset much sooner
  	Maxwell Graf  	if thats both, then im for it.
15:49 	Braydon Randt  	as am I
  	Elie Spot  	^^ agreed vivi
  	sachi Vixen  	I blame Max
  	  	:P
  	Maxwell Graf  	lo
  	Asha  	lol
  	dahlia1337 resident  	what are the performance implications of having both, and do they conflict?
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	Maxwell; I'm afraid that no one individual solution will do what you've mentioned, but when there's more than one tool, picking the right one for the right task works wonders.
  	Elie Spot  	deformer will be a shorter term release hopefully! is max waiting on our consensus about morph targets or was he waiting on more info about the possibility of cbones to pursue a different deformer entirely
  	  	one that might work better altogether than his current?
  	  	woops
  	  	not max
  	  	qarl
  	  	lol
15:50 	sachi Vixen  	I think need whatever we can get asap
  	Esprite Xavier  	Waiting for features or toolsets to be completed or started on kinda sucks when you can have some solutions now :D
  	Geenz Spad  	there's no negative performance implications of having both specifically, just the performance implications that Qarl's produces its self; but he's done his best to mitigate that, and it only occurs when someone uploads a mesh to use his method specifically
  	Nal  	ASAP is good
  	Geenz Spad  	right then, sounds like we have a consensus
  	  	I'll speak to Qarl this week about going for both
  	Siddean Munro  	Ok
  	dahlia1337 resident  	did the initial delay problem of the deformer get resolved?
15:51 	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	To be fair, Geenz, artist practices have a huge impact on performance anywhere.
  	Maxwell Graf  	My biggest concern at this point is just how much work is going to be involved on the design end in order to get a system that works. If it requires X amount of additional weight painting and adjustment, various sizes, alpha maps, etc etc etc. then this becomes less and less of a viable solution as the workload increases, regardless of how well the end result works.
  	Vivi  	collision skeleton is workable but it's really kind of an ugly hack and it doesn't work as well as Qarl's method, so...as an interim solution while people wait on the deformer to ship in the viewer, it's useful but I don't see it as more than a stopgap
  	Geenz Spad  	http://www.qarl.com/qLab/?p=86 here's the most recent blog post I believe of the deformer
  	dahlia1337 resident  	qarl was mentioning adding an octree or something
  	Geenz Spad  	so if any of you want to go post something up there, feel free
  	Nal  	Dahlia, the 0.2 Mesh deformer had a lag. In the 0.3 version Qarl had it pretty well handled.
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	Max; That's one of the topics that will need to be covered; a general consensus on just how things are implemented, the depth and complexity...
15:52 	Elie Spot  	the only issue with the latest deformer were the distortions on extreme shapes, everything else looked great
  	  	I think when Qarl saw redpoly's demo, he was wondering if whatever they did could be used as part of the deformer
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	Elie; That can be mitigated with tweaks to mesh design.
  	Elie Spot  	it cant, its because the base av is wonky in certain places
  	Siddean Munro  	The base avatar morphs are pretty ugly
  	Elie Spot  	so smoothing out the default avatar is one of the possible solutions
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	Right, base av can't be helped, unfortunately.
  	Elie Spot  	which we're working on
  	Maxwell Graf  	When the pipeline for development becomes 10%% design and 90%% production methods, I think we run into a serious viability issue, not just for the individual designer, but for the entire population of people who may want to or are designing fashion.
  	dahlia1337 resident  	I would think the deformer has more potential for better deformations and additional features like facial expressions and lip sync
15:53 	Elie Spot  	it can selkit
  	Vivi  	the base avatar is not perfectly symmetrical among other things
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	Topology on that poor old beastie is a nightmare in spots.
  	Siddean Munro  	Yes it really is
  	Asha  	That's why Qarl stated he would add the feature to have any base that you want. So, you could use a base closer to the extreme shape for those.
15:54 	Siddean Munro  	Dahlia, in order for your custom mesh face not to turn out really ugly, you have to build it exactly to Ruth.
  	Nal  	Having a selectable base avatar would be great.
  	Asha  	right
  	dahlia1337 resident  	exactly? lol well maybe with the vertices near ruth's vertices
  	Braydon Randt  	so start ugly ..... is the key
  	Geenz Spad  	:P
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	I doubt we're ever going to quite outrun Ruth. :c
15:55 	Siddean Munro  	And then it looks just like the SL face, which kinda defeats the point of making a custom face :)
  	Esprite Xavier  	not unless someone comes up with some kinda transitional solution
  	Braydon Randt  	ruth a good old bird ..... bad hair day EVERY day
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	Makes me a bit nostalgic.
  	Geenz Spad  	so anyways, shall we get on with Paola's topic?
  	Siddean Munro  	Yes
  	Geenz Spad  	Find a way to allow custom imported mesh avatars to wear existing content (textures/mesh). We need better, more detailed avatars, whilst retaining legacy content and immersive uniqueness. (Paola Tauber)
  	Vivi  	Not necessarily, it can look similar BUT increasing the number of tris and verts will improve the overall model considerably
  	Maxwell Graf  	I guess what im saying is that it is very easy in this situation to get completely caught up in the technical aspects of implementation, while very easy to forget or push aside the human factors of actually using this type of a system on a daily basis. It should be considered as importantly as the technical aspects.
  	Martin RJ  	I totally agree with Maxwell
15:56 	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	Vivi; It's not just a matter of polycount, unfortunately.
  	Esprite Xavier  	Be nice to see a new avatar mesh that had 2 uv sets, a new one and one that could make use of the old content by matching the uvs in some fashion, though that's not really a perfect solution either
  	Geenz Spad  	Maxwell: the workflow will be discussed some more at the next meeting (that or we can arrange a meeting specific to morph targets; it really is a large topic to discuss)
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	Geenz; I may suggest we dedicate a meeting.
  	dahlia1337 resident  	well I would agree that the "bind" position (if Im not over-extending the term) of Ruth's lips are a bit too close for good deformation using the deformer :/
  	Siddean Munro  	Can we move onto the next topic? We're going to run out of time :)
  	Geenz Spad  	not a bad idea Selkit
15:57 	  	anyways, so Paola's topic
  	tauber Paola von Tauber 	when you all stop giggling at that idea, my request it's coming from a consumer point of view. we can have custom mesh avatars, but we can't use legacy content. there must be a smart way to combine both
  	dahlia1337 resident  	legacy content like skins?
  	Siddean Munro  	Paola, the only way to use existing textures on new meshes is for the UV's to be exactly the same. I can't see how we can do that
  	Geenz Spad  	in the context of mesh avatar replacements, it wouldn't be a bad idea to extend some of the luxuries we have on the avatar mesh to them as well
  	Nal  	I don't think so Paola...
15:58 	tauber Paola von Tauber 	like cloth simulation, i understand it's blue sky thinking more than anything else
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	Paola; Morph targets would alleviate at least some of that, allowing you to define your own clothing folds and wrinkles.
  	sachi Vixen  	I don't think you are ever going to be able to use legacy content with custom avatars. Things just don't physically work that way.
  	dahlia1337 resident  	the seams on the UV maps for Ruth are horrible, would be nearly impossible to match
  	Geenz Spad  	hm
  	Siddean Munro  	She's talking about being able to use existing skins on new custom built avatars, for example
  	Geenz Spad  	well, let's think of this from another angle shall we?
  	Siddean Munro  	Or your texture layer shirt
15:59 	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	Existing skins would have to be applied to a matching UV.
  	Nal  	Cloth sim is CPU intense. In blender it drives my machine to its knees. I doubt we will see in SL anytime soon.
  	Allegory Malaprop  	people are matching up the seams already. but there's the entire multi layering issue, the avatar mesh functions differently.
  	sachi Vixen  	If a mesh avatar is made that is better than ruth, even if you could bind it to the deformer you are never going to be able to wear Ruth's skins on it
  	Braydon Randt  	truth of the matter is .. legacy content . has been replaced, and there slittle we can do to make old stuff work on your frames
  	  	new*
  	sachi Vixen  	Or Ruth's texture clothes
  	Tya Fallingbridge  	ruth needs to be cleaned up
  	Maxwell Graf  	i dont mean to add a secondary agenda, just responding to the fact that I see a ton of discussion about this or that technical element, and very little consideration for how it works when you have to use it every day, how it fits into a pipeline and how much of that pipeline it makes up. The entire issue should be prefaced with the original intent, which is to make this result easier to accomplish.
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	Texture clothes require a matching UV.
  	tauber Paola von Tauber 	what do you mean Geenz?
  	dahlia1337 resident  	have you seen how jagged the seams on Ruth's arms are?
  	Geenz Spad  	how about we think about how we can extend some of the cool things we have on the base avatar that we don't have on mesh ones?
16:00 	Allegory Malaprop  	a large percentage of mesh avatars i've seen ARE using the matching UV with a retpop'd model
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	I have. As I mentioned earlier, dahlia, Ruth is a mess.
  	Braydon Randt  	i agree with Max ...... making it simple ... is more important .. than anything else .. as over complicating a system will kill the desire to use it
  	Allegory Malaprop  	but you can only wear one extra "clothing layer" above the skin because layering doesn't work the same
  	Elie Spot  	allegory, like people took ruth and modded it a little?
  	Vivi  	Petites for instance are the most popular mesh avatars and they're based on the existing base shape and UV mapping
  	Tya Fallingbridge  	yes
  	Allegory Malaprop  	complete retopology, but matching UVs
  	Siddean Munro  	The petites are modified SL avatars
  	Allegory Malaprop  	all the petite avatars, for instance
16:01 	tauber Paola von Tauber 	how about we think about how we can extend some of the cool things we have on the base avatar that we don't have on mesh ones?
  	  	what do you mean by that Geenz?
  	Geenz Spad  	well, baked textures for example
  	Allegory Malaprop  	they use a very different topology that has less distortion (higher poly as well as different choices made in overall topology, smoother weight painting, etc.)
  	Siddean Munro  	If I were to build a custom avatar there is no way it'd be using SL texture layers
16:02 	Braydon Randt  	its like wrapping a diamond in brown paper
  	Asha  	lol
  	  	No kidding
  	Siddean Munro  	Baked layers would be a good idea actually
  	Allegory Malaprop  	meshes do not support texture "layering" in the manner the avatar does. decals, undershirt/shirt/jacket
  	Geenz Spad  	sure they're not "amazing", but it'd allow content creators to make a base avatar that others can easily create clothing for
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	Baked mesh layers would make me drool in unseemly ways.
[16:02] AshaAsha chuckles
  	Braydon Randt  	why not ...... as you can alpha your mesh layers ?
16:03 	Geenz Spad  	Allegory: however, the existing mechanisms for baked texture layers would apply to meshes as well, it wouldn't be all that complex
  	Braydon Randt  	well ... i duppodsr face issues
  	Esprite Xavier  	meshes do support multiple uvs as well
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	We're currently limited to a single material per-face right now, Braydon.
  	Braydon Randt  	, wtfv did i just type *lol*
  	Asha  	no idea Bray ^^
  	Allegory Malaprop  	layering alphas brings up alpha issues
  	Finlay MacFanatic  	duppodsr
  	Allegory Malaprop  	i.e. alphas do not play nicely.
  	Geenz Spad  	it's not explicitly tied to the avatar mesh, having actually looked at how that works, it could be extended to meshes as well
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	Allegory; Hence, baking them in layers much like the existing avatar.
  	Braydon Randt  	well thats a whole new issues to play with isnt it
16:04 	Martin RJ  	some news: SL has 30 million registered accounts now. And: did you all read about that: SL doesn't have an age verification anymore http://bit.ly/slageverific
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	I'm afraid that's not very relevant to our current topic, Martin.
  	Allegory Malaprop  	yes selkit, which is what i meant by decals, and layering in the same manner as the existing avatar mesh, not using alpha layers as a solution, because it isn't really.
  	Siddean Munro  	Ok here's an example. I make a mesh avatar - I want to include cleavage, freckles, makeups wihtout having to change the head mesh or complete texture
  	Martin RJ  	no not really, but it's past 4pm :)
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	I didn't suggest using alpha layers, Allegory.
16:05 	Geenz Spad  	Martin: the meeting lasts till 4:15 :P
  	Martin RJ  	oooh
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	Siddean; That's precisely what layering would permit.
  	Allegory Malaprop  	no, but someone else in the discussion did :)
  	Siddean Munro  	So I would want to do it in layers like we do now
  	  	Exactly
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	Hell, we need that for meshes in general, not just avatars.
  	Vivi  	1-bit instead of 8-bit alphas layer properly BUT 1-bit alphas also have issues with image resolution and edge aliasing
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	Build a car, want to add decals or numbering or weathering? Bake a combined material. <3
16:06 	Allegory Malaprop  	you can get around that with baking the layers, vivi
  	Geenz Spad  	so, I guess, it turns into, who thinks clothing layers like we have for the existing avatar mesh would be a good idea for rigged meshes as well? specifically those that are intended to replace the avatar mesh?
  	tauber Paola von Tauber 	me! :D
  	  	(i think!)
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	I'd actually think extending that beyond avatars and into general materials is a better, more broad-purpose idea.
  	Siddean Munro  	I think it's a good idea,it's work for close fitting clothing layers like underwear that can be worn underneath rigged mesh outer clothing
  	Braydon Randt  	so what we want .... is the SL avatar .. but custom .... with all the bells and whistles it has ... without it looking like Bicentenial man
16:07 	Geenz Spad  	basically, yes Braydon, and I'd see clothing layers as a good starting point to that
  	Esprite Xavier  	so just a way to use all the existing texture slots but use a custom avatar mesh?
  	Vivi  	I think it's a good idea, yes, if possible
  	tauber Paola von Tauber 	i'd be happy with that
  	Nal  	Since the Lab is building new compositing servers... this could be a complex issue just now.
  	Esprite Xavier  	well I just "just" but it's probably more complicated
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	Complexity is a cost of progress, unfortunately.
  	Geenz Spad  	Esprite: yes, although I think we'd also want the ability to have your own UVs for it as well
  	Braydon Randt  	what we dont want ...... is to rush a half assed solution for anything .. or we get the " we dont want to break existing content" in 3 years
16:08 	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	Geenz, I think we have another one-topic meeting we need to schedule. ;)
  	Geenz Spad  	we still have some time to discuss it
  	Vivi  	I'm not sure how it would be a complex issue as I assume the new compositing servers won't change the compositing apart from taking the load of doing it off the simulator and ending the client-side compositing currently used, other than that it shouldn't generate any specific issues?
  	Allegory Malaprop  	it's a solution that could be extended to buildings, which could lower texture size as well.
  	Geenz Spad  	though I will want to speak with Toast shortly afterwards about their issue
16:09 	  	and that's correct Vivi
  	Toast Bard  	:D
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	Allegory; Composite textures for non-avatar meshes would make me melt in glee.
  	Esprite Xavier  	yeah, it'd be interesting to see where it goes but ya know, kinda got to the point of expecting nothing until it's there hehe
  	Geenz Spad  	I know the person who was working on the shining project in that regard, I can talk to him how this would effect that, and if they can factor this into their design
  	Nal  	Vivienne, it is going to be politically complex. Getting the Lab to change mid process is not easy.
16:10 	Geenz Spad  	you never know Nal, how the existing compositing system actually works is very simple
  	  	it's literally layering textures on top of each other in a specific order
  	Nal  	I'll give you that Geenz... see what they say.
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	Merging down by layer priority.
16:11 	Esprite Xavier  	flatten image :)
  	Geenz Spad  	so it won't be too much trouble to speak to the lab about it
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	It'd be nice if we could specify blend mode per layer, but that, may be significantly more troublesome to ask for.
  	Geenz Spad  	right, let's keep it simple for now
  	Braydon Randt  	might be something that can merged into the materials system we want real bad
  	Siddean Munro  	So are you going to talk to someone at the Lab about that Geenz?
  	Tya Fallingbridge  	k.i.s.s.
  	Geenz Spad  	I will be
16:12 	Siddean Munro  	Ok cool :)
  	tauber Paola von Tauber 	yes. for the dumb girl over here (me): keep it simple and give me a better body on which i can plaster my beloved skin :D
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	If asking fails, please break out the nuclear puppy eyes. We *need* that.
  	Geenz Spad  	we only have a few minutes left, so Toast? Do you have a means to reproduce the alpha problem?
  	Maxwell Graf  	RL calls. Have a good day all.
  	Esprite Xavier  	Wish ya the best in that reguard :D
  	Asha  	Bye Max
  	Maxwell Graf  	...HOLA!!...
  	Braydon Randt  	laters max
16:13 	Esprite Xavier  	I wonder if that seam issue is somehow related to mip mapping or something
  	sachi Vixen  	I don't think that will ever be feasible Paola. To wear your existing skin with a custom avatar.
  	Toast Bard  	sure lemme just grap a screenshot
  	  	one sec
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	Paola, wearing your skin with a custom avatar would entail precisely matching the UVs and closely matching surface topology to avoid deformation.
  	Toast Bard  	http://gyazo.com/3b2286ef8d19a2a636190f751258c736
  	sachi Vixen  	Unless the creator remade it for the custom specifically
  	Anouk Spot  	i can see it right now on Lamb's hair
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	Essentially it would be a slightly upgraded version of Ruth.
  	Anouk Spot  	it conflicts with the background tree
  	Geenz Spad  	I haven't seen your issue personally, but I know of others who have been seeing it recently; if I have a solid reproduction case, I can look into it, or forward it to the correct person
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	And it would still have to share Ruth's faults.
  	Toast Bard  	you can see in that picture that the alpha on lambs hair is cutting out the things behind it, and if there were alphas on her hair behidn it, the prim would cut them out too
16:14 	  	as if it were an invisiprom
  	Lamb Bellic  	allegory's hair as well
  	Toast Bard  	its incredibly difficult as a designer to work with this
  	Siddean Munro  	isn't this the long standing opengl alpha sorting issue?
  	Koli Melune  	I *think* runitai has fixed that.
  	Esprite Xavier  	alpha sorting :(
  	Toast Bard  	because she couldnt wear like, say, a sheer shirt with that
  	Allegory Malaprop  	rigged mesh renders alpha like this- it's not the sorting thing really
  	Toast Bard  	yeah
  	Koli Melune  	I seem to remember some MAINT JIRA about something with that.
  	Geenz Spad  	hm, it *looks* like fast alpha, I'll ask Runitai about it
  	Toast Bard  	its def not a flickering issue
  	Allegory Malaprop  	rigged completely fails to render any alphas behind it all- no flicker, nothing. and yes, there's a jira, though i don't recall the number
  	Anouk Spot  	doesn't look fixed to me
16:15 	Koli Melune  	The fix isn't out of QA. :p
  	Geenz Spad  	and yes, I see it Allegory's hair
  	Toast Bard  	you can see it in every mesh hair with an alpha
  	Allegory Malaprop  	rigged mesh
[16:15] Koli MeluneKoli Melune wonders if he can find the JIRA.
  	Toast Bard  	or any mesh item
  	Allegory Malaprop  	it's exclusively a rigged mesh issue: hair's most obvious, as people are just avoiding alphas elsewhere because of it
  	Geenz Spad  	if there's a specific JIRA for that, give it to me please
16:16 	Siddean Munro  	Is this to do with mesh rigged hair that makes eyelashes disappear?
  	Toast Bard  	yeah i'd bet
  	Siddean Munro  	I think I have a jira in about that
  	Geenz Spad  	looks like we're going over out time slot again :) not a problem though
  	Anouk Spot  	i've seen this happen with non rigged mesh as well
  	  	like with glasses with alpha, it's not flickering that happens, it just blanks out that area
  	Geenz Spad  	right, if there isn't a JIRA for it, please file one; either I'll look into a fix, or I'll speak with someone who works in that area
16:17 	dahlia1337 resident  	doesn anyone know when are mesh attachments drawn wrt other parts of an avatar?
  	Koli Melune  	Oh, the JIRA I was thinking of is different, but somewhat the same: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MAINT-622
  	Toast Bard  	so theres no insider information on how close a fix is to completion?
  	sachi Vixen  	Isn't the blanking out the same reaction as the flickering but because the prims/mesh are different the reaction is slightly different?
  	Geenz Spad  	I haven't been told anything, sorry
  	Siddean Munro  	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SH-2836
  	Anouk Spot  	oh i'm not sure
  	Toast Bard  	ah alright
16:18 	Siddean Munro  	that's the one I reported
  	Allegory Malaprop  	i've noticed an increase in alpha rendering being a little
  	  	off, in general
  	Geenz Spad  	I think that sums up Toast's issue, can you look over it and make sure Toast?
  	Toast Bard  	well yeah my issue was just to find out if there was actually a fix being worked on and how far along it was
  	Allegory Malaprop  	things flickering out and completely turning invisible- i'm wondering if that might be more your issue, Anouk, this particular thing seems to be exclusively rigged, consistently
16:19 	Toast Bard  	but since theres no insider information i guess all i can do is wait
  	Geenz Spad  	I'll ask around about it
  	Toast Bard  	thank you :D
  	Anouk Spot  	it could be, alle!
  	Geenz Spad  	anyways, thank you all for coming to today's meeting!
16:20 	Toast Bard  	will you be making another meeting just for deformer talk?
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	Thank you for not throwing rotten fruit. :D
  	tauber Paola von Tauber 	bye and thank you
  	Geenz Spad  	I'll be discussing that with the relevant people, Toast
  	Toast Bard  	noice!
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	T'would be shiny to have a dedicated chat about that.
  	Geenz Spad  	and as always, we do have an open agenda, so feel free to get some items up for next week's meeting
16:21 	Asha  	Thanks for the meeting guys.
  	Braydon Randt  	aye ... thank you
  	Geenz Spad  	for those of you who missed that URL, https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation_Improvement_Informal_User_Group
  	woozl Selkit T. Woozl  	You're very welcome, Asha, Braydon and everyone.
  	Esprite Xavier  	Yep thanks, fun to talk about this stuff :)
  	Geenz Spad  	we will have the logs posted up in an hour or two