User Experience Interest Group/Transcripts/2009-01-15

== Topic & Summary ==
User Experience Interest Group Discussion for January 15, 2009.
Topic: Minimap
Aimee Trescothick told us about her efforts and ideas to improve the minimap:
* Cleaning up dead code
* Adding panning support with Shift+Click and drag
* Improving rendering of objects on the minimap (more detailed/correct than gray rectangles)
* Have minimap avatar dots change scale as you change minimap zoom levels.
There were suggestions by others that perhaps the functionality of the minimap and the world map could be merged. However, there were concerns about performance (primarily networking, due to the different update models the two maps have).
There were also suggestions to integrate a (detachable) avatar radar with the minimap, and to allow better teleport control through the minimap.
== Transcript ==
[15:04]	Aimee Trescothick: 	do we have a topic?
[15:04]	McCabe Maxsted: 	like kids witih mirrors on their shoes
[15:05]	Aimee Trescothick: 	strange topic
[15:05]	Jacek Antonelli: 	heh
[15:05]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I don't have a Mac, but I wish X11 would come out of the 80's and adopt a few things from Display Postscript.
[15:05]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Open topic today
[15:05]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I wish I could use voice but say it people are on Imprudence, like Jacek...
[15:05]	McCabe Maxsted: 	aimee: open discussion
[15:05]	McCabe Maxsted: 	aw she's never on voice
[15:05]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I can't even stay connected to voice on the standard viewer
[15:05]	McCabe Maxsted suspects she sounds like a smoker 	McCabe Maxsted suspects she sounds like a smoker
[15:05]	Jacek Antonelli: 	It dropes out every 10 seconds
[15:05]	McCabe Maxsted: 	a likely excuse
[15:05]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Linux user?
[15:05]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hi Charlette
[15:06]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, you caught me. I'm actually a dog. I don't know how to talk.
[15:06]	Charlette Proto: 	hi everyone
[15:06]	Aimee Trescothick sounds like a truck driver 	Aimee Trescothick sounds like a truck driver
[15:06]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hi Charlette!
[15:06]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hehehe
[15:06]	McCabe Maxsted: 	ahoy charlette :)
[15:06]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I got that sometimes too.
[15:06]	Geneko Nemeth: 	So um, I have to handwrite chat in, which could be a bit of slow...
[15:07]	McCabe Maxsted: 	you're on a tablet?
[15:07]	Charlette Proto: 	paw writing is slower
[15:07]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Hiya charlotte!
[15:07]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Anyone got anything they'd like to talk about, or should we just shoot the breeze?
[15:07]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Yeah... and a game controller for flycam.
[15:07]	Aimee Trescothick: 	I like to here people's thoughts on the mini-map
[15:08]	Charlette Proto: 	what is the topic today (sorry I have no idea)
[15:08]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Maybe about alternative input devices!
[15:08]	McCabe Maxsted thinks aimee has a link to send around too 	McCabe Maxsted thinks aimee has a link to send around too
[15:08]	Charlette Proto: 	ee the Wii Remote
[15:08]	Aimee Trescothick: 	I've been taking it's code apart this week and was discussing it with Coco a bit
[15:08]	Morgaine Dinova: 	A better alternative to the Wiimote was announced a couple of days ago, $100 approx, could be fun
[15:08]	Aimee Trescothick: 	oh yeah, there's also the voice issue too
[15:08]	Aimee Trescothick: 	heh, everyone go vote on VWR-3321
[15:08]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah, plug your voice issue :D hehe
[15:08]	Aimee Trescothick: 	I think that's the right one :D
[15:09]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Hi Galak!
[15:09]	Jacek Antonelli: 	yep
[15:09]	Cail Enyo shouts: cream lets ride our bikes n kill 	Cail Enyo shouts: cream lets ride our bikes n kill
[15:09]	Jacek Antonelli: 	So, tell us about the minimap, Aimee
[15:09]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Who's speaking?
[15:09]	Charlette Proto: 	what is the voice issue?
[15:09]	Jacek Antonelli: 	And we can talk about alternative input devices in a little while, since that's another interesting topic
[15:10]	Charlette Proto: 	voice commands? you must be kiddeing
[15:10]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Charlette: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-3321
[15:10]	Aimee Trescothick: 	the voice issue is about automatically turning off the mic after IM calls
[15:10]	Aimee Trescothick: 	basically there's a patch on there which solves the problem, but it got turned down as they're thinking of doing something else ... which won't fix it
[15:11]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah. *facepalm*
[15:11]	Charlette Proto: 	I think not turning the mic on on the first use would really be important, noobs come in making echo
[15:11]	Charlette Proto: 	btw who has a mic open here????
[15:11]	Jacek Antonelli: 	McCabe, you mentioned to me that Erica Linden seemed open to Aimee's solution?
[15:11]	McCabe Maxsted: 	creamcake
[15:12]	Aimee Trescothick: 	Erica and Rob have both responded favourably to reconsidering it, so there's still hope
[15:12]	Charlette Proto: 	I want some creamcake plese
[15:12]	McCabe Maxsted: 	yeah, she said she supported it and forwarded it around the communications dept
[15:12]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Great
[15:12]	Geneko Nemeth: 	And me...
[15:12]	Soap Clawtooth shouts: creamcake, your mic is open 	Soap Clawtooth shouts: creamcake, your mic is open
[15:12]	Cail Enyo shouts: we kno 	Cail Enyo shouts: we kno
[15:12]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe
[15:12]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Well, here's hoping it goes through. It's a good one.
[15:12]	McCabe Maxsted: 	so don't blame her if some other dev is stupid :)
[15:12]	Geneko Nemeth shouts: Cream cake! Come here! we have a chat here! 	Geneko Nemeth shouts: Cream cake! Come here! we have a chat here!
[15:12]	Aimee Trescothick: 	lol yeah
[15:13]	Jacek Antonelli: 	You're also doing something with the minimap, Aimee?
[15:13]	Cail Enyo: 	fly with the bike
[15:13]	Aimee Trescothick: 	as for the mini-map I've spent some time taking it apart this week ...
[15:13]	Geneko Nemeth: 	that definitely more than 40 meters though...
[15:13]	Cail Enyo: 	k
[15:14]	Aimee Trescothick: 	I've converted it to use XUI so that the right-click menu can be translated and stuff, and removed a load of dead code
[15:14]	Cail Enyo: 	i kno
[15:14]	Charlette Proto: 	the fallof of voice has a really unrealistic defaul and this is just a great example of it
[15:14]	Cail Enyo: 	so am i cream
[15:14]	Aimee Trescothick: 	it was full of cobwebs dating back to before the world map existed
[15:14]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Mweh, welcome to the User Experience Interest Group meeting ~
[15:14]	Aimee Trescothick: 	including code to allow panning
[15:15]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Whee, dead code
[15:15]	Charlette Proto: 	creamcake are you here for a meeting or to spam us in voice with you room noises?
[15:15]	McCabe Maxsted: 	ooooooh
[15:15]	Soap Clawtooth: 	You often find little quirks in the code. I actually found something called LLforthelolz at one poiint. Totally useless, but I lol'd
[15:15]	Aimee Trescothick: 	so at first I was going to remove that in the clean up, but Coco suggested leaving it in and making it work, which gave me a couple of ideas what to do with it
[15:16]	Geneko Nemeth: 	No, they are just passer bys
[15:16]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Passed by when brains were being given out
[15:16]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hah
[15:16]	Geneko Nemeth: 	which is a shame, we could use more interest in Ux. . .
[15:16]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Just kids prollu
[15:17]	Charlette Proto: 	yep perhaps Mac coders
[15:17]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hehe
[15:17]	Aimee Trescothick: 	let me find what I wrote in email to her a mo ...
[15:17]	Aimee Trescothick: 	oh, while I was at it, I made it so you can resize it smaller too
[15:17]	Soap Clawtooth: 	Think i have some code somewhere that turns double click autopilot into a double click TP.
[15:17]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Well Sai has a new Mac. Maybe we need a spot of blackmail.
[15:17]	Aimee Trescothick: 	it's minimum size at the moment is based on the size of two controls that no longer exist lol
[15:18]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Ah, good one Aimee
[15:18]	Aimee Trescothick: 	and I made NW NE SW and SE autohide when it gets small
[15:18]	Aimee Trescothick: 	and increased the zoom range so you can zoom in further
[15:18]	Jacek Antonelli: 	(That reminds me, I need to shrink the minimum size for the texture window)
[15:18]	McCabe Maxsted: 	/mem loves small touches like that
[15:19]	Soap Clawtooth: 	This is why everyone should have a spacenav!
[15:19]	Soap Clawtooth: 	supazoom
[15:19]	Aimee Trescothick: 	Coco Regarding panning support, rather than removing it, I like the idea of making it work but of course there are some UI ramifications.
[15:19]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Bleh.
[15:19]	Aimee Trescothick: 	to which I responded ...
[15:19]	Aimee Trescothick: 	OK, I'll put it back in. I initially removed it as I guessed it was made redundant way back with the introduction of the main world map. However, UI considerations allowing, it should be fairly easy to get working. One UI concept might be to allow panning by shift-drag on the mini-map. That raises the question of what happens when the camera moves though, you could either snap back to camera position or move the map with it at the same offset (though I could see that leading to confusion if people do it accidentally) or ...
[15:19]	Aimee Trescothick: 	.. that might work best alongside another possible featurette, which would be to add a selection to the right-click menu to choose whether the mini-map centers your avatar or your camera position. Then, if you turned both off, you could free-pan with-shift drag instead. Having to explicitly go into the menu and turn the centering off would side-step the possible issue of people panning the map accidentally while doing other things. While the map centering is enabling it might be nice to still allow shift-drag panning, but making it "springy" so that when you release it returns to the centered position over a short period.
[15:20]	Charlette Proto: 	what about friend names on hover over green dots??
[15:20]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Support for non-spaceman devices are horrible and the interface tier changing. the configuration...
[15:20]	Soap Clawtooth: 	I suggested way back that the UI could benefit from a colour overlay patch to shut up the noobs who didn't like the bright stuff
[15:20]	Aimee Trescothick: 	that's already been done Charlette
[15:21]	Charlette Proto: 	is it OK didn't notice
[15:21]	Aimee Trescothick: 	should be in 1.23, along with adding Show Profile to the right-click menu on them
[15:21]	Aimee Trescothick: 	not sure if it made it into 1.22, don't think so
[15:21]	McCabe Maxsted: 	no not yet
[15:21]	Aimee Trescothick: 	o
[15:21]	Aimee Trescothick: 	k
[15:21]	Charlette Proto: 	to some degree the minimap overlaps the clientside agent radar/scan we were talking about recently
[15:22]	Aimee Trescothick nods 	Aimee Trescothick nods
[15:22]	Charlette Proto: 	we were talking of adding data to active speakers to make avie scanners less popular and improve overall speed
[15:23]	Charlette Proto: 	but minimap would be most meaningfull
[15:23]	Charlette Proto: 	all these people wear mistytool and mostly for avis scanner
[15:23]	Aimee Trescothick: 	my long term thoughts are a lot more ambitious, but not really practical at the moment, right now I'm concentrating on small improvements to it, long term I'd like to replace it with something like a rotatable 3D isometric view of the sim
[15:24]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Interesting
[15:24]	Aimee Trescothick: 	but that's a long way off being practical right now
[15:24]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah
[15:24]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe nice but making it more informative would be the best way to put extra emphaces on the minimap
[15:24]	Morgaine Dinova: 	At some point it's going to be interesting for some objects to be added to the minimap, turning it into a radar for games. Playing on the Mondserrat sims, I was continually looking for mobs on the radar ;-)
[15:25]	Charlette Proto: 	I agree
[15:25]	Soap Clawtooth: 	If you're going to make that a useful commodity for the gamers, you may as well include an option to hide yourself from minimap.
[15:25]	Aimee Trescothick: 	yes, that would be another interesting enhancement to it, allowing scripts to place markers on it
[15:25]	Soap Clawtooth: 	At least to people on the same client.
[15:26]	Charlette Proto: 	the radar/scanners of agents really waste the server time as they are used now and client has all the info for audio and chat range
[15:26]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hi Gabriella :)
[15:26]	Aimee Trescothick: 	going back to what's acheivable right now though ...
[15:26]	Charlette Proto: 	noob allert
[15:26]	Charlette Proto: 	Awww look at that little newbie!!! Your So Cute!! Yes You Are! Your So Cuteeee...
[15:26]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hehe Charlette
[15:26]	Aimee Trescothick: 	what do people think about making it pannable? is shift drag the right way to do it?
[15:27]	Geneko Nemeth: 	C'mon, take a seat!
[15:27]	Gabriella Razorfen: 	hi
[15:27]	Aimee Trescothick: 	along with adding the option to choose with it centres on you camera, or avatar
[15:27]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Hiyas.
[15:27]	Charlette Proto: 	yes the use of client distance and direction info on maps should be readily feasible now
[15:28]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Aimee: I would think just regular click and drag? But I guess that moves the window itself. So, shift-click would be okay.
[15:28]	Geneko Nemeth: 	pannable? Why?
[15:28]	McCabe Maxsted: 	I woudl say hold click
[15:28]	Aimee Trescothick: 	that moves it
[15:28]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Charlette: the answer to being pushed like that by newbies not seeing anything is to forbid movement immediately after a port ... but I think some might object to that. Dunno wha tthe answer is.
[15:28]	Geneko Nemeth: 	there she goes...
[15:28]	McCabe Maxsted: 	it can't have a border?
[15:28]	Charlette Proto: 	I agree cge the noobs untill they do all the tutorials
[15:29]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Can we try to stay on topic, please? :P
[15:29]	Aimee Trescothick: 	people are going to be used to just moving it around as it is
[15:29]	Geneko Nemeth: 	what? we have a topic?
[15:29]	Aimee Trescothick: 	I know having to reach for the title bar to move it now would drive me nut :D
[15:29]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yes. We're talking about the minimap
[15:29]	McCabe Maxsted was thinking that people would be trying to pan around like they would the map. At least, I would be hehe	McCabe Maxsted was thinking that people would be trying to pan around like they would the map. At least, I would be hehe
[15:30]	Aimee Trescothick: 	it would also make it easy to drag accidentally while doing other things
[15:30]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I agree that clicking to move the minimap window itself is pretty much ingrained by now. Shift-click works for panning.
[15:30]	McCabe Maxsted nods, k 	McCabe Maxsted nods, k
[15:31]	Charlette Proto: 	I personally think there should be one resizable map with opional pane for searching, avie scanner etc
[15:31]	Charlette Proto: 	the minimap as it is is practically useless (but I haven't seen it with name display)
[15:32]	Aimee Trescothick: 	it would be nice, the world map and minimap are quite different in the way they update at the moment though
[15:32]	Morgaine Dinova isn't worried what people decide, as it'll probably be overridable in plugins anyway ^_^ 	Morgaine Dinova isn't worried what people decide, as it'll probably be overridable in plugins anyway ^_^
[15:32]	Charlette Proto: 	Gabriella, could you please play elsewhere, we are having a meeting
[15:32]	Aimee Trescothick: 	there's no way you could update the world map at the same rate the mini-map does for example
[15:33]	Aimee Trescothick: 	handling object rendering better on the minimap would be nice too
[15:33]	Roof Doors: 	Gabriella Razorfen is at the door.
[15:33]	Aimee Trescothick: 	right now, all it does is look at the X Y dimensions of the prim and render a square based on that, no matter the prim type or orientation
[15:33]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah
[15:34]	Charlette Proto: 	I understand the performance problem but the avie scanner etc could be limited to the nearest sims
[15:34]	Aimee Trescothick: 	with obvious consequences where megaprims are involved
[15:34]	McCabe Maxsted: 	yeah, definitely
[15:34]	Aimee Trescothick: 	not sure what the solution to that is though, as it's done that way to make it fast
[15:34]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Is special data sent to the client purely for generating the minimap, or does the client manufacture the minimap from the ordinary agent+object data sent by the sim?
[15:34]	Aimee Trescothick: 	anything more is going to slow it down, a lot
[15:35]	Absinthe Fairy Wings in Pink 4.2.1 whispers: Gabriella massages Aimee's wings to release the tension in them. 	Absinthe Fairy Wings in Pink 4.2.1 whispers: Gabriella massages Aimee's wings to release the tension in them.
[15:35]	Absinthe Fairy Wings in Pink 4.2.1 whispers: Gabriella runs her fingers through Aimee's wings. 	Absinthe Fairy Wings in Pink 4.2.1 whispers: Gabriella runs her fingers through Aimee's wings.
[15:35]	Charlette Proto: 	OK maybe merging them is unrealistic
[15:35]	Aimee Trescothick: 	from what I remember it uses the existing object data, but there are coarse location update packets sent continuously for avatar positions
[15:36]	Morgaine Dinova: 	kk
[15:36]	Morgaine Dinova: 	That's much nicer
[15:36]	Charlette Proto: 	avie positions are available in the client for audio processing and chat distance
[15:37]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Ie. "there's an av at x,y,z", not "draw a dot at x,y on minimap"
[15:37]	Aimee Trescothick: 	... which is why it shows anyone above 1023m as below you
[15:37]	Soap Clawtooth: 	Unless you're on a linden client, then the chat distance is set to something much higher...
[15:37]	Aimee Trescothick: 	it sends the avatar's x y and z packed into a byte each
[15:37]	Charlette Proto: 	as it is the minimap could still replace the meaningless chat text display of current radars
[15:37]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Oh, I didn't know the minimap gave any indication of height. Cool! What's the indication of above/below?
[15:38]	Jacek Antonelli: 	d'oh, Aimee
[15:38]	Aimee Trescothick: 	upwards or downwards pointing arrow as the dot
[15:38]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Excellent
[15:38]	Geneko Nemeth: 	▲/▼
[15:38]	Aimee Trescothick: 	the byte for Z is multiplied by 4 to give 0-1023m with +/-4m accuracy
[15:39]	Morgaine Dinova: 	LOL @ packing the coordinates --- I really *hate* the kludges that UDP has produced.
[15:39]	Aimee Trescothick: 	it will be fixed when they move over to TCP, the code is already there
[15:39]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Good
[15:39]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Good
[15:39]	Morgaine Dinova: 	:-)
[15:39]	Gabriella Razorfen: 	Brazil
[15:39]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Moving to TCP?
[15:40]	Gabriella Razorfen: 	sou novata
[15:40]	Aimee Trescothick: 	aaanyway, talking about the arrows ....
[15:40]	Aimee Trescothick: 	reminds me of something else I was thinking about
[15:40]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Anyone speak Spanish?
[15:40]	Charlette Proto: 	why was it ever on UDP (Useless Data Packets) beats me
[15:40]	Gabriella Razorfen: 	poquito
[15:40]	Morgaine Dinova: 	He speaks Portuguese, not Spanish
[15:40]	Morgaine Dinova: 	She
[15:40]	Charlette Proto: 	Brazil is Portuguese
[15:40]	Aimee Trescothick: 	what if they were drawn at about the "right" scales on the map? and scaled with it?
[15:41]	Geneko Nemeth eeps. 	Geneko Nemeth eeps.
[15:41]	Gabriella Razorfen: 	sim
[15:41]	Aimee Trescothick: 	(up to a point where they'd get too small)
[15:41]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Low overhead?
[15:41]	Jacek Antonelli: 	So, lower avatars look like smaller dots?
[15:41]	Gabriella Razorfen: 	no comprendo muy bien english
[15:41]	Gabriella Razorfen: 	pero hablo espanhol
[15:41]	Charlette Proto: 	colour would be better and border for friends etc
[15:42]	Gabriella Razorfen: 	ayude
[15:42]	Aimee Trescothick: 	no, I was thinking more that they were the right size on the map for you zoom level, so you had some feeling for how far zoomed in you were
[15:42]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Saludos Gabi, estamos en un meeting teqnico.
[15:42]	McCabe Maxsted: 	so the closer you zoomed in the bigger they all got?
[15:42]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Ah
[15:42]	Aimee Trescothick: 	yeah
[15:42]	Gabriella Razorfen: 	no habia jugado este juego
[15:42]	Aimee Trescothick: 	using it for height is interesting, but, you get a bit limited how big you can draw them without all overlapping as you zoom out
[15:43]	Charlette Proto: 	OK sorry I thought size for the Z position
[15:43]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah
[15:43]	Morgaine Dinova: 	No es un juego, es un mundo come el otro. No hay nada para jugar aqui. :-)
[15:43]	McCabe Maxsted: 	would it be relative to your own position or the sim?
[15:43]	Charlette Proto: 	colour is better for height
[15:43]	Aimee Trescothick: 	but if they were scaled to something like say 0.75m x 0.75m, that would give a good indication of zoom level
[15:44]	Charlette Proto: 	or just show info (XYZ) on hove
[15:44]	Charlette Proto: 	hover*
[15:44]	Aimee Trescothick: 	and make it easier to see the arrow glyphs, which right now are so small many people haven't even noticed their existence
[15:44]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah
[15:44]	McCabe Maxsted nods 	McCabe Maxsted nods
[15:44]	Charlette Proto: 	zoom is best displayed by scroll relative size bars like all other windosw
[15:45]	Soap Clawtooth: 	I dunno why you don't combine the worldmap and minimap. add alot of the worldmap's functions to the minimap.
[15:45]	Aimee Trescothick: 	I know a linden (Brent?) was already looking at replacing them with something more visible
[15:45]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Relative to what, though, Charlette? The whole grid?
[15:45]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Telling her that this wasn't a game seemed to make her go away :-)
[15:45]	Aimee Trescothick: 	mostly performance reasons Soap
[15:45]	Charlette Proto: 	I got the answer for it already soap - performance
[15:46]	Aimee Trescothick: 	the minimap is a fast approximation, whereas the world map gives more detail on a slower update
[15:46]	Charlette Proto: 	but scrollbars would be a really good was to solve panning and zoom
[15:46]	Soap Clawtooth: 	You don't have to fit the whole worldmap into the minimap. You could at least add the option of being able to select a part of the region you're in and hit teleport.
[15:46]	Aimee Trescothick: 	and less accurately
[15:47]	Soap Clawtooth: 	Or simply double click the area in question.
[15:47]	Charlette Proto: 	read stuff above (earlier) soap
[15:47]	Soap Clawtooth: 	heh
[15:48]	Aimee Trescothick: 	it would be nice mind you to be able to choose between using the live updated coarse object view, or the texture from the world map though
[15:48]	Charlette Proto: 	any opinion on relative to coverage and pos size scrollbars (why aren't we using them
[15:48]	Aimee Trescothick: 	generally I don't want the minimap taking up any more screen space than it has to
[15:49]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Or maybe make objects on the minimap semi- transparent. --?'
[15:49]	Aimee Trescothick: 	most of the time scrollbars would be dead weight
[15:49]	Charlette Proto: 	all it takes is 8 pixels wide
[15:49]	Aimee Trescothick: 	yeah, I thought about that too Geneko, though I guess it may slow down rendering
[15:49]	Soap Clawtooth: 	Just add the option to mousewheel scroll on minimap mouseover.
[15:49]	Aimee Trescothick: 	I guess scrollbars could be a skinning option
[15:49]	Soap Clawtooth shrugs. Most people have bi-direction mousewheel's these days 	Soap Clawtooth shrugs. Most people have bi-direction mousewheel's these days
[15:50]	Aimee Trescothick: 	if the code was there to support them
[15:50]	Jacek Antonelli: 	One concern I'd have about scaling the dots with zoom level, is that they would have to be fairly small to be able to not overlap a lot when zoomed in very far
[15:50]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Most? what do you man by most.
[15:50]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I take Aimee's line on this --- I think the main benefit of the minimap is screen real estate optimization. It could be integrated into the big map, but that would miss the point: it's an alternative view. Multiple views is good.
[15:50]	Aimee Trescothick: 	at the moment mousewheel zooms, so you'd have to move that to something else
[15:50]	Charlette Proto: 	BTW is modality (foreground on focus) for any windo/dialog (inc maps) being addressed
[15:50]	Soap Clawtooth: 	Move mousewheel zoom to Shift + mousehweel.
[15:51]	Aimee Trescothick: 	shift-drag is more inline with the simple drag pan on the main map
[15:51]	Soap Clawtooth: 	Or use that for the scroll...
[15:51]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Ctrl + wheel is usually zoom.
[15:52]	Aimee Trescothick: 	I guess it's down to whether people would be zooming or panning more, I guess zoom would be more common, so better left as the one handed operation
[15:52]	Soap Clawtooth: 	For the main screen, yes
[15:52]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Modality is mess in the client. What lowers on world click and what stays in front seems to be random.
[15:52]	Soap Clawtooth: 	Not for minimap.
[15:52]	Charlette Proto: 	ATM stupid TPs, notices etc make inventory impossible to use
[15:52]	McCabe Maxsted: 	agreed
[15:52]	McCabe Maxsted: 	how far would panning go, though?
[15:53]	Charlette Proto: 	edge os the surrounding (child) sims???
[15:53]	Aimee Trescothick: 	probably limited by your draw distance
[15:53]	Charlette Proto: 	that is 384 to 521 metres from user
[15:54]	Charlette Proto: 	sorry 256 to 512
[15:54]	Aimee Trescothick: 	that's going to be the limt of what your client knows about
[15:54]	Morgaine Dinova: 	That's something we should stick in the "Things that annoy me most" thread on the forum. Notices that deny us using the UI unless we click on them first are from Satan.
[15:54]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hate modes.
[15:54]	Charlette Proto: 	OK good poing Morgaine
[15:54]	Aimee Trescothick: 	if I zoom right out on my minimap now, I can see an area of 5x5 regions
[15:55]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Mweh Mweh! :O
[15:55]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hm, apparently double click minimap tping works even if your client hasn't drawn the neighboring sim
[15:55]	Aimee Trescothick: 	heh
[15:55]	Aimee Trescothick: 	LOL
[15:55]	McCabe Maxsted just tp'd into blank ui, lucky there was land underneath me 	McCabe Maxsted just tp'd into blank ui, lucky there was land underneath me
[15:55]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hehe
[15:55]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hah
[15:55]	Charlette Proto: 	I'd love to be able to move the floaters out of the world rendering window, but I know it is not realistic
[15:56]	Charlette Proto: 	themaps as well ofcourse
[15:56]	Aimee Trescothick: 	that means currently my minimap shows an are 1280x1280m
[15:56]	Aimee Trescothick: 	at 512m draw distance
[15:56]	McCabe Maxsted: 	my draw distance is 64, hehe
[15:56]	Aimee Trescothick: 	yeah, mine was till I tried it to find out lol
[15:57]	Charlette Proto: 	mine is 512 since the last RC and it actually works and looks great but some sims really slow down
[15:57]	Soap Clawtooth: 	I have my draw distance set at max :D
[15:57]	Aimee Trescothick: 	with it as 64m it just showed the neighbouring region
[15:58]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I stock with 96 / 104.
[15:58]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I'd love to detach floaters from the main window too. I wonder what that would take to do. It's not an inherent problem, lots of apps do it.
[15:58]	Charlette Proto: 	McCabe is just looking at himself I gather
[15:58]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe
[15:58]	Soap Clawtooth: 	You can edit the position of floaters, Morgaine.
[15:58]	McCabe Maxsted: 	actually I was wondering why the compass leters change color on mouseover, and if aimee had removed that
[15:58]	Soap Clawtooth: 	At least while you're logged on. Not sure how to get it to save these values.
[15:58]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Soap: to outside the SL window?
[15:58]	Aimee Trescothick: 	heh, can hover my mouse over people in Pooley and see who they are :D
[15:58]	Soap Clawtooth: 	No, that's ridiculous.
[15:59]	Aimee Trescothick: 	they do?
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Heh, only the "N" changes, McCabe
[15:59]	McCabe Maxsted: 	my E just did :P
[15:59]	McCabe Maxsted has the superior mouse! 	McCabe Maxsted has the superior mouse!
[15:59]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Soap: you're not paying attention then -- we're talking about detaching them from the main window, it's not ridiculous, lots of apps do it.
[15:59]	Soap Clawtooth: 	Why would you want the floaters outside the SL window?
[15:59]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Because we do, not your concern.
[15:59]	Aimee Trescothick: 	so you can move them onto another monitor :)
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli: 	So they don't block the view?
[15:59]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Exactly
[15:59]	McCabe Maxsted: 	so we can run in windowed mode faster?
[16:00]	Soap Clawtooth: 	Just edit them to be off-screen then.
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli: 	But then you can't use them
[16:00]	Soap Clawtooth shrugs. 	Soap Clawtooth shrugs.
[16:00]	Charlette Proto: 	so that you gain FPS in the rendering window which is hopeless on large screens
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Anyway.
[16:00]	Soap Clawtooth: 	Or you can edit the size.
[16:00]	Geneko Nemeth: 	it's not the same thing...
[16:00]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Soap: some of us have more flexible desktops than yours.
[16:00]	Soap Clawtooth: 	I have 3 monitors, morgaine.
[16:00]	Soap Clawtooth: 	As well as virtual desktop
[16:00]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Imagine Photoshop or The GIMP.
[16:01]	Soap Clawtooth: 	I know photoshop well, thanks.
[16:01]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Good for you, you shouldn't be questioning what other power users want then.
[16:01]	McCabe Maxsted: 	aimee how cluttered do you think the minimap would be with say a detachable radar
[16:01]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe and you don't want to detach chat to other screens soap?
[16:01]	Aimee Trescothick: 	aaanyway, I created a meta-issue for mini-map stuff on jira yesterday
[16:02]	Aimee Trescothick: 	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-11548
[16:02]	McCabe Maxsted: 	oooh
[16:02]	Charlette Proto: 	my push for a clientside radar is based on the expectation that moving it out of the server LSL/Mono processing would improve sim performance
[16:02]	Aimee Trescothick: 	so any related bugs or requests that aren't on the list there, link 'em up :)
[16:02]	Soap Clawtooth: 	There could be a way to get the SLim and SL client to run together so that the Slim picks up the chat where you are and causes it not to be displayed on the main viewer. Essentially its a noobie-hack, but its a start
[16:02]	Aimee Trescothick: 	what did you have in mind when you say a detachable radar?
[16:03]	Charlette Proto: 	I'm thinking of all dialogs (windows) working the same way soap
[16:03]	Soap Clawtooth: 	Well looking into SLim will provide the best clues on the exection of that, then.
[16:03]	Charlette Proto: 	that is having a clean screen for world display on one or two of your screens
[16:04]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hmm, like, say, you have a popout window that'd have a radar listing that you could detach, that'd maybe give you the same info on the minimap if you zoomed in close enough (talking, friend, distance)
[16:04]	Geneko Nemeth: 	SLim is closed source propertiary software...
[16:04]	Morgaine Dinova: 	My oven is telling me very noisily ..... "Delicious food ready, eat me" .... BRB :-)
[16:04]	Soap Clawtooth: 	Do you possess a brain and some coding experience?
[16:04]	Soap Clawtooth: 	If so, SLim isn't hard to replicate.
[16:04]	Aimee Trescothick: 	mw nods, I had been bang around the idea of a pullout draw on the side or something
[16:04]	Charlette Proto: 	and you need separate membership from a company we don't like soap
[16:04]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Not really;
[16:04]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Soap, I'm going to ask you to please be respectful
[16:05]	Soap Clawtooth: 	I wasn't being disrepectful. SLim's source code is not that hard.
[16:05]	McCabe Maxsted: 	yeah, now that would be something really fun to skin
[16:05]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Yeah, but...
[16:05]	Soap Clawtooth: 	the only hard bit would be getting it to communicate with the main client.
[16:05]	Aimee Trescothick: 	:)
[16:05]	Geneko Nemeth: 	If connects to vivox's servers.
[16:05]	Charlette Proto: 	forget SLim soap
[16:05]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Not LL's servers,
[16:06]	Soap Clawtooth: 	Yes i know that.
[16:06]	Charlette Proto: 	precisely plus the membership
[16:06]	Soap Clawtooth sighs. 	Soap Clawtooth sighs.
[16:06]	Charlette Proto: 	forget SLim soap
[16:06]	McCabe Maxsted: 	newbies really do need some form of radar when they enter secondlife, if you're perhaps looking for a reason to convince LL to accept a patch for it
[16:06]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Anyway, we're at the end of the hour, so let's call it a day. Next week, we'll talk about alternative input devices, like tablets and such. This could also be partly an accessibility discussion
[16:06]	Soap Clawtooth: 	im not suggesting using Slim.
[16:06]	Aimee Trescothick is still waiting for vivox to get round to opensourcing the voice client 	Aimee Trescothick is still waiting for vivox to get round to opensourcing the voice client
[16:06]	Soap Clawtooth: 	I'm suggesting the a SLim like setup to solve your problem of detachable chat.
[16:06]	Charlette Proto: 	well we are back to my clientside radar
[16:07]	Charlette Proto: 	forget SLim soap
[16:07]	Aimee Trescothick: 	yep, I have to run, gone midnight
[16:07]	Aimee Trescothick: 	i'll be turning into a pumpkin shortly
[16:07]	McCabe Maxsted: 	aw, rest well
[16:07]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Take care everyone, thanks for coming!