Beta Server Office Hours/Minutes/2010-04-08

Category:Beta Server Office Hours - Minutes
This meeting was held on April 8th, 2010
= Agenda =
* Discuss resolution of previous open items.
* Updates
** What are we going to do with 1.38?
*** The good news.
*** The bad news.
** Are Estate bans broken again?
*** Looks like there was an issue.
*** I need info.
** 1.40 info
** Havok 7 testing info.
*** After party on Oatmeal 6, bring stuff to test.
* Releases
** 1.38.1 soon
** Let's all hug kelly and maestro.
** 1.38.2 1st week in May
* Any other business
** Demo video showing fast rezzing and collisions of hundreds of physical objects on Havok 7 regions 
= Resolved Items =
= Meeting Minutes =
* Talked about 1.38 status.
* Talked about Havok 7.
* Went nuts on the Oatmeal havok testing regions.
= Transcript =
Transcript of Oskar Linden's Beta Server Office Hour for April 8th, 2010:
* [14:58] Second Life: Your object 'Object' has been returned to your inventory lost and found folder from parcel 'Adult Testing : Mature rated sim.' at Oatmeal 9 -1, 134 because it went off-world.
* [14:58] Wildcatt Tigerpaw: gave you inventory refresh.
* [15:00] Xugu Madison: Evening all!
* [15:00] ANSI Soderstrom: hi again all
* [15:00] SHAMUS Carter: **:•.•:** hallo hello hi holla **:•.•:** 
* [15:00] Oskar Lindenri: Ashton: ello
* [15:00] ANSI Soderstrom: dont right click me please
* [15:00] Techwolf Lupindo: Hi oskar.
* [15:00] Oskar Lindenri: Ashton: heya oskar :p
* [15:00] Sebastean Steamweaver: It's teh oskar
* [15:00] SHAMUS Carter: hi osker
* [15:00] Chalice Yao: Hey hey Oskar :>
* [15:00] Oskar Lindenri: Ashton: have a new pet oskar? ;)
* [15:00] Xugu Madison: hey Oskar!
* [15:01] Techwolf Lupindo: I noticed that oskar is standing the nextdoor sim...Hmm....
* [15:01] Sebastean Steamweaver: I noticed that also.
* [15:01] SHAMUS Carter: Yus !
* [15:01] Xugu Madison: He's avoiding us :(
* [15:01] SHAMUS Carter: Never!!!
* [15:01] Oskar Lindenri: Ashton: hi milo
* [15:01] Sebastean Steamweaver: Milo is also in the sim nextdoor.
* [15:01] Milo Linden: hey :)
* [15:01] Milo Linden: burns morris
* [15:01] Oskar Linden: ladies and gentlenerds
* [15:01] Oskar Linden: it is that time again
* [15:01] IzzieBellah Hinterland: thank you, Oskar, for updating my inventory :)
* [15:01] Sebastean Steamweaver: Which begs the question.
* [15:02] Gooden Uggla: hiya oskar
* [15:02] SHAMUS Carter: thank you osker for updatign my invinroty as well
* [15:02] Sebastean Steamweaver: Is he going to restart this sim while we're all in it, or wait for us to go over to that sim thinking it's safer, and then restart that one? :o
* [15:02] Oskar Linden: is lagging pretty hard right now
* [15:02] Oskar Lindenri: Ashton: your not the only one
* [15:02] ANSI Soderstrom: its me oskar, iam the lag
* [15:02] Psi Merlin: Hi Oskar, Milo
* [15:02] Oskar Linden: I know ANSI
* [15:02] Milo Linden: hey :)
* [15:02] Lares Carter: heya Oskar
* [15:02] Sebastean Steamweaver: Behold the Lag Incarnate :P
* [15:02] Techwolf Lupindo: Look at the sim lag meters. WOW!! Morris is keeeling over.
* [15:03] Oskar Lindenri: Ashton: hey rex
* [15:03] SHAMUS Carter: wow
* [15:03] Rex Cronon: hi youri
* [15:03] Rex Cronon: hi everybody
* [15:03] Oskar Linden: is trying to juggle his agni and aditi personalities at the same time
* [15:03] Xugu Madison: As much as I'd like to blame ANSI, I am tempted to suggest it's the giant swarm of people teleporting in, really
* [15:03] Oskar Linden: it's ahrd enough being Oskar Linden and then my RL alt
* [15:03] SHAMUS Carter: fun fun fun
* [15:03] Oskar Linden: let alone having Oskar logged in more than two grids
* [15:03] Memorial Dae: ha That would be a good guess
* [15:03] Oskar Linden: as if my personality could split any more
* [15:03] IzzieBellah Hinterland: a RL alt? lolol
* [15:04] Gooden Uggla: there's an astounding amount of crap on this sim... perhaps a cleaning crew?
* [15:04] Oskar Linden: it does need a good cleaning
* [15:04] Oskar Linden: I'll see about a sim wipe this week
* [15:04] Memorial Dae: ya SOME linden made a big mess to the north lol
* [15:04] Oskar Linden: so if you have anything you might lose better take care of it
* [15:04] NeoBokrug Elytis: My mind?
* [15:05] SHAMUS Carter: hehe
* [15:05] Oskar Linden: ok. let's get thsi show on the road
* [15:05] Memorial Dae: ...he said something you would mind loosing
* [15:05] Oskar Linden: oh, I got an offline IM on ADITI from someone who couldn't log into aditi
* [15:05] Oskar Linden: heh
* [15:05] Oskar Linden: wonder how he logged in to send that message
* [15:05] Sebastean Steamweaver: Maestro and Lil are in the Lag sime :O
* [15:05] Oskar Linden: so here is the agenda https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Beta_Server_Office_Hours#Agenda
* [15:06] Gooden Uggla: email response?
* [15:06] Gooden Uggla: nm
* [15:06] Techwolf Lupindo: Oskar, I would save a copy of Morris right now for benchmarking testing differenc sim version.
* [15:06] Oskar Linden: no. he was logged in
* [15:06] Gooden Uggla: odd
* [15:06] Oskar Linden: so....
* [15:06] Oskar Linden: 1.38
* [15:06] Gooden Uggla: crap, there's bad news...
* [15:06] Oskar Linden: good news and bad
* [15:06] Sebastean Steamweaver: : \
* [15:07] Oskar Linden: bad news first
* [15:07] Oskar Linden: we can't fix it
* [15:07] SHAMUS Carter: NOOOOoooOOOOoooooo...
* [15:07] Oskar Linden: it's an issue with mono
* [15:07] Sebastean Steamweaver: Hmm
* [15:07] Xugu Madison: That's not bad news! It's great to have it clarified!
* [15:07] Oskar Linden: and we need to upgrade mono
* [15:07] Rex Cronon: fix what?
* [15:07] Sebastean Steamweaver: How do we avoid it?
* [15:07] Gooden Uggla: the GC again?
* [15:07] Oskar Linden: but we can't upgrade mono til we upgrade debian
* [15:07] Xugu Madison: Rex; content breaking deserialisation bug
* [15:07] Oskar Linden: so many dependencies
* [15:07] Memorial Dae: ok i knew it was too good to be true, my sim sandbox ahd not run that good since it was new
* [15:07] Oskar Linden: there is a plan for upgrading mono
* [15:07] Oskar Linden: but it's a few releases out
* [15:07] Oskar Linden: so......
* [15:08] Oskar Linden: that means that the mono sim lag fix had to be removed
* [15:08] NeoBokrug Elytis: :C
* [15:08] Chalice Yao: :<
* [15:08] Huns Valen: rats
* [15:08] Oskar Linden: which was tied to the bug
* [15:08] Oskar Linden: and I know that sucks
* [15:08] Oskar Linden: but that's where we're at
* [15:08] Techwolf Lupindo: Couldn't just patch mono as a temp fix untill the full upgraded mono?
* [15:08] Oskar Linden: we've given a ton of time to working on this issue
* [15:08] Gooden Uggla: oskar... the mono sim freeze and the performance deterioratiion is out of control... having 20 avs in a sim slows it to a crawl (between TP freezes)
* [15:08] Oskar Linden: poor maestro hasn't slept in a week
* [15:08] Oskar Linden: I know Gooden
* [15:08] Kelly Linden: Patching mono is a non-starter
* [15:08] Oskar Linden: that was the fix
* [15:09] Oskar Linden: and it introduced an issue we can't fix
* [15:09] Oskar Linden: until mono gets upgraded
* [15:09] Memorial Dae: pats Maestro on the shoulder
* [15:09] Nomad Padar: Maestro is hardcore. He eats insomnia for breakfast!
* [15:09] Xugu Madison: Techwolf, I believe the case is that it'll be faster to update Debian, move to Mono 2.x, and then fix it, than to try manually unpicking Mono 1.6 to fix this
* [15:09] Oskar Linden: it's like falling dominoes
* [15:09] Gooden Uggla: kelly, i know everyone is doing what they can, but damn... this is a deal-breaker
* [15:09] Xugu Madison: hands Maestro a pillow
* [15:09] Maestro Linden: heh thanks
* [15:09] Huns Valen: debian owns
* [15:09] Oskar Linden: so we have a version of 1.38.1 with the offending code removed
* [15:09] SHAMUS Carter: hugs maestro
* [15:09] Sebastean Steamweaver: hands Maestro a blanket and hefts in a mattress.
* [15:09] Oskar Linden: it is on ADITI now
* [15:09] Oskar Linden: Maestro has been leading the effort to test it
* [15:10] Latif Khalifa: i don't understand the part about updating debian to update mono. rolling your own deb with newer mono is way easier than upgrading the distro
* [15:10] Maestro Linden: mislabeled as 1.38.0.203395 in fact :)
* [15:10] Oskar Linden: I will make sure it gets out to all the simes so the rest of you can look at it too
* [15:10] Memorial Dae: But I have a question pertaining to performance and the initial 1.38 issue
* [15:10] Oskar Linden: we have til wednesday to find any issues and finish QA
* [15:10] Xugu Madison: So pilot roll 20th, live 27th?
* [15:10] Oskar Linden: then we pilot 1.38.1 to AGNI
* [15:10] Gooden Uggla: i kept my promise, i stayed quiet till 1.38 was out...
* [15:10] Oskar Linden: next wednesday
* [15:11] Gooden Uggla: dammit
* [15:11] Moy Loon: :o
* [15:11] Huns Valen: nice
* [15:11] Oskar Linden: so that's where we're at
* [15:11] ANSI Soderstrom: and the bad news ?
* [15:11] Oskar Linden: We will be watching the pilot very aggressively
* [15:11] Oskar Linden: nice ANSI
* [15:11] Gooden Uggla: there's worse news?
* [15:12] Xugu Madison: Thanks Oskar, Maestro, everyone, for the effort. So... 1,42? :)
* [15:12] Gooden Uggla: *thud*
* [15:12] Oskar Linden: I'll need your help messaging us with any issues noticed during the pilot
* [15:12] Oskar Linden: no more bad news
* [15:12] Oskar Lindenri: Ashton: if a linden starts with the bad news, you can always assume there is worse news ;)
* [15:12] Oskar Linden: that's it
* [15:12] NeoBokrug Elytis: Haha don't worry about that.
* [15:12] Techwolf Lupindo: back from crash
* [15:12] Oskar Linden: unless you count my lack of a social life as worse news
* [15:12] Sebastean Steamweaver: What's the good nes?
* [15:12] Sebastean Steamweaver: news*
* [15:12] Nomad Padar: Social what?
* [15:12] Oskar Linden: but I'm not sure that is your concern ;-)
* [15:12] Xugu Madison: Oskar, I actually might, but I suspect people who worry about tired/overworked Lindens are few
* [15:12] Gooden Uggla: so more months of sim freezes and continual and gradual drop-off of performance?
* [15:12] Oskar Linden: the good news is we got the code pulled and are planning on releaseing 1.38 next wednesday
* [15:13] Sebastean Steamweaver: nods
* [15:13] Kelly Linden: \o/
* [15:13] Oskar Lindenri: Ashton: Oskar, think not that we differ in that department much my friend ;)
* [15:13] Oskar Linden: sorry Gooden
* [15:13] Oskar Linden: we'll see how well 1.38 performs
* [15:13] Gooden Uggla: dude, your beard bring all the girls to the yard
* [15:13] Oskar Linden: there are enhancements
* [15:13] Oskar Linden: hah
* [15:13] Sebastean Steamweaver: Well, that throws a bit of a wrench into my plans, but yeah, things happen.
* [15:13] Nomad Padar: You mean, we can change all our huge objects with 255 scripts to use 1 script on wednesday!?
* [15:13] Oskar Linden: is actually planning on going _out_ tonight :-o
* [15:13] Xugu Madison: Gooden; as I understand it, the lag is partially dependent on number of scripts. Meaning, as scripters push out more efficient scripts, the lag should go down anyway...
* [15:13] Nomad Padar: \o/!!
* [15:14] Oskar Linden: there is a Make It Purple Rain tribute to Prince dance party in Seattle tonight
* [15:14] Oskar Linden: so yeah. I'm gonna go
* [15:14] Maestro Linden: yeah that's true Xugu
* [15:14] Xugu Madison: Have fun!
* [15:14] Sebastean Steamweaver: Awesome
* [15:14] Techwolf Lupindo: I remember purple rain by prince.
* [15:14] Oskar Linden: ladies of Seattle beware
* [15:14] Memorial Dae: can imagine the EROTIC CITY shaved ice cone stand
* [15:14] Nomad Padar: Ladehs*
* [15:14] Oskar Linden: actually I shouldn't give them advance warning
* [15:15] Gooden Uggla: xugu, that evilution will take years
* [15:15] Oskar Linden: ok then
* [15:15] Gooden Uggla: evilution
* [15:15] Oskar Linden: maestro any thing you have to say about 1.38?
* [15:15] Oskar Linden: anything people can help with this weekend?
* [15:15] Xugu Madison: Gooden, possibly, but I'm for anything that gets rid of the old scripts ASAP :)
* [15:15] Nomad Padar: I wanna hear about how epic it is again.
* [15:15] Oskar Lindenri: Ashton: i can i guess
* [15:15] Gooden Uggla: in the meantime, they are going to push script limits when the lab themselves is causing the problem (mono)
* [15:15] ANSI Soderstrom: i will help
* [15:15] Oskar Lindenri: Ashton: as long as i know for what precisely :p
* [15:16] Oskar Linden: there is a path to fix sim / scripts performance in SL. By fall I think we're going to be in a good palce.
* [15:16] Xugu Madison: Gooden; no, script limits are coming because some of the servers are thrashing their HD with memory swapping
* [15:16] Gooden Uggla: i'm beyond words... there is literally no longer a practical way to gather 40 avs without a sinkhole of lag
* [15:16] Oskar Linden: maestro? anything?
* [15:16] Nomad Padar: I think the number of scripts in SL should drop significantly with the event of 1.38 anyway
* [15:16] SHAMUS Carter: yess
* [15:16] Maestro Linden: anything to add, you mean?
* [15:16] Oskar Linden: yeah
* [15:17] Gooden Uggla: xugo, they caused that, they sold mono as something they can't deliver
* [15:17] Nomad Padar: Ability to have linkprimitiveparamsfast is going to be script-changing.
* [15:17] Oskar Linden: anything for people to poke at over the weekend?
* [15:17] Maestro Linden: ok, so these serialization errors seem to be fixed
* [15:17] Memorial Dae: I was in a sim sandbox with 1.38 and even with the little spikes because of testing we were doing it ran almost like new, How come the issue took so long before the sim started to fail?
* [15:17] SHAMUS Carter: once all the old resizerers die sl will the a far better place
* [15:17] Maestro Linden: but existing scripts which already crashed by them will still be fixed
* [15:17] Huns Valen: being able to set link primitive params will let me get rid of a couple scripts, easy
* [15:17] Maestro Linden: er
* [15:17] Maestro Linden: will still be broken
* [15:17] Oskar Linden: heh
* [15:17] Memorial Dae: :)
* [15:17] Oskar Linden: I was like "Whoa?! Really?"
* [15:17] Oskar Linden: ur such a kidder maestro
* [15:18] Nomad Padar: I blocked out Maestro's second message I think.
* [15:18] Maestro Linden: so if you see this error when rezzing objects, you don't necessarily need to panic =)
* [15:18] Nomad Padar: All I saw was, "Everything is fixed."
* [15:18] Oskar Linden: right
* [15:18] Oskar Linden: the issue was with the scripts not deserializing properly
* [15:18] Maestro Linden: like oskar said, I've been missing sleep =P
* [15:18] Oskar Linden: which made them crash when being serialized
* [15:18] Oskar Lindenri: Ashton: you been missing sleep? i havnt slept for 2 days so far o_0
* [15:18] Maestro Linden: that's backwards
* [15:18] Oskar Linden: really hard to repro the actual serialization issue
* [15:18] Memorial Dae: oh ok
* [15:18] Oskar Linden: heh
* [15:18] Maestro Linden: the issue was with the scripts not serializing properly
* [15:18] Gooden Uggla: maestro we appreciate the efforts...
* [15:18] Oskar Linden: bah
* [15:19] Oskar Linden: those words confuse me
* [15:19] Sebastean Steamweaver: Youri - 36-48 hour days are a normality for some of us ;)
* [15:19] Oskar Linden: *sigh*
* [15:19] Gearsawe Stonecutter: had 7 crashed in an hour last night
* [15:19] Maestro Linden: which made them crash when being deserialized (rezzed etc)
* [15:19] Oskar Lindenri: Ashton: lol seb, i know. i have the same :p
* [15:19] Kelly Linden: 'serialized' = saved, 'deserialized' = loaded
* [15:19] Oskar Linden: our company is great. we have flex time. we can work whichever 90 hours in a week we choose
* [15:19] SHAMUS Carter: ohhhhh
* [15:19] Memorial Dae: so as more newbies came to the sandbox unpacking shopping bags teh worse it got! :)
* [15:19] SHAMUS Carter: thanks kelly
* [15:19] Latif Khalifa: lol
* [15:19] Oskar Linden: my dyslexia triumps yet again
* [15:19] Moy Loon: Why not deserialize right after it serializes, and if something happens, dump all the info you can
* [15:19] Xugu Madison: laughs, then cries, at the flexitime joke
* [15:19] Oskar Linden: thanks for the clarification
* [15:19] Oskar Lindenri: Ashton: i got asperger as i told you some time ago, i dont have the same rithm as "normal" people do :p
* [15:20] Kelly Linden: moy: I thought you didn't like it when we lagged the sim?
* [15:20] Sebastean Steamweaver: Why do I find it funny that a MEGABLING script broke? :P
* [15:20] Oskar Linden: haha
* [15:20] NeoBokrug Elytis: haha
* [15:20] Memorial Dae: :D
* [15:20] Nomad Padar: I like the new particle system
* [15:20] Gooden Uggla: it's ok youri, just turn on a smaba
* [15:20] Xugu Madison: Should we get onto estate bans, next on the agenda, before we're stuck here for the next month?
* [15:20] Moy Loon: For testing, it would be helpful =p
* [15:20] Gooden Uggla: samba*
* [15:20] Oskar Lindenri: Ashton: lol gooden
* [15:20] Oskar Linden: so during the pilot if you guys see bunnies dying please please let me know right away
* [15:20] NeoBokrug Elytis: Yah, we hear about it pretty fast.
* [15:20] Sebastean Steamweaver: Oskar, are you going to distribute bunnies in cages for us to monitor?
* [15:20] SHAMUS Carter: bunny killer
* [15:21] Xugu Madison: I've got a theory... it might be BUNNIES!
* [15:21] Memorial Dae: Oh yes bunneh deaths = bad
* [15:21] Oskar Linden: enough residents already think I'm a genocidal maniac after the concentration camp oatmeal misunderstanding
* [15:21] Techwolf Lupindo: Bunnies....mmmm.....
* [15:21] Gooden Uggla: bunnies and chickens and turtles, oh my!
* [15:21] Moy Loon: Haha
* [15:21] Nomad Padar: So, how many particle systems can we put in one object before it's considered griefing?
* [15:21] Techwolf Lupindo: thinks of juscy snacks.
* [15:21] NeoBokrug Elytis: All of them.
* [15:21] Sebastean Steamweaver: Just like the old miners who kept canaries in the mines, to see if they died to warn about gas poisoning :P
* [15:21] Jonathan Yap: It would be nice to have some way to identify people with the old resizer scripts and tell them to get an updated version. Otherwise people will be going around with what they have already purchased.
* [15:21] Latif Khalifa: we don't think, we know :P
* [15:21] Oskar Linden: Nomad. try it one at a time. when you get banned then you'll know
* [15:21] Nomad Padar: Good idea.
* [15:21] Gooden Uggla: puppeteer pets will now continue to be a tool of griefing *shudders*
* [15:22] Sebastean Steamweaver: Jonathan - getting people to update their resizers may still be an issue.
* [15:22] Oskar Linden: ok on to the next topic
* [15:22] Oskar Linden: esate bans
* [15:22] Memorial Dae: Oh wait wait...
* [15:22] Oskar Linden: looks like there was an issue in that that is fixed for 1.40
* [15:22] Maestro Linden: heh Jonathan, if they have the newer viewer with script limits info, that information will be easy as looking up whether the attachment's using multiple MB of memory =P
* [15:22] Sebastean Steamweaver: Without PRIM_LOCAL_POS resizing is very iffy, and can corrupt a linkset in 3-4 resizes.
* [15:22] Oskar Lindenri: Ashton: nomad, try around me, and you sure get reported, you soon get a ban after :p
* [15:23] Sebastean Steamweaver: And that's assuming you're not pressing linkability rules.
* [15:23] Gooden Uggla: don't forget recolr scripts, same effect as resizers on boots and hair
* [15:23] Gooden Uggla: recolor
* [15:23] ANSI Soderstrom: i cant testing for bans because iam banned from mainland sims, not from estates O.o
* [15:23] Latif Khalifa: especially for attachments that move around
* [15:23] Kelly Linden: hopefully soon sebastean. The trouble with 1.38 has chewed into all my extra time to implement things like that.
* [15:23] Ima Mechanique: MAestro, because they *can* will not mean they *will*. Most will not I think, until educated
* [15:23] Xugu Madison: has a single-script re-color script that works on 1.36, actually....
* [15:23] Gooden Uggla: ANSI i'll ban ya from m y estate later
* [15:24] ANSI Soderstrom: ty gooden
* [15:24] Oskar Linden: adds a group hug of kelly to the agenda
* [15:24] Sebastean Steamweaver: Kelly: Yeah, I'm not blaming you for the lack of it, I know you all have been working hard on debugging 1.38, which I really appreciate. I'm just saying in general, replacing resizers just yet may be a bad idea.
* [15:24] ANSI Soderstrom: i love to be a part from the testing group O.o
* [15:24] Oskar Lindenri: Ashton: and why would that be ansi :p
* [15:24] NeoBokrug Elytis: Perhaps making a blog statement about the wonderful new functions and how it affects resizers would get the word out.
* [15:24] Oskar Lindenri: Ashton: you posed as Linden when you talked to me on pooley :p
* [15:24] Skills Hak: estatebans are the same as in 1.36.4 right?
* [15:24] ANSI Soderstrom: its not the topic here
* [15:24] NeoBokrug Elytis: Then again, getting people to read at all is a problem.
* [15:24] Oskar Lindenri: Ashton: posing for linden is against the TOS ;p
* [15:24] Gearsawe Stonecutter: been using a re texture and color script for my entire houses
* [15:25] Oskar Lindenri: Ashton: i warned you several times and still you tried to convince me :)
* [15:25] Oskar Linden: what do you mean skills?
* [15:25] Maestro Linden: Sebastean: I don't think that a PRIM_LOCAL_POS script will necessarily have that problem. if you have the script store the positions and scales of the prims at 1:1 scale, you should be able to resize as many times as you like without any decay in precision (though maybe rescaling at 4096m will have less z-precision than if you do it at sea level)
* [15:25] Oskar Linden: it seemed there was an issue with the estate bans not getting sent to each of the regions
* [15:25] Skills Hak: i mean there were no changes since then
* [15:25] Skills Hak: yeah
* [15:25] Skills Hak: still happening alot
* [15:25] Oskar Linden: no 1.38 changes that I know of
* [15:25] Object: Hello,: Avatar!
* [15:25] Oskar Linden: I 'believe' that if you have to estate ban and you do it on each sim it will work
* [15:25] Nomad Padar: When 1.38 comes to Agni, will there be a script limit per avatar?
* [15:25] Oskar Linden: right maestro?
* [15:26] Xugu Madison: Nomad, no, not even close to yet
* [15:26] Maestro Linden: yes estate bans should work
* [15:26] Xugu Madison: would guess 1.42 or 1.44 for script limits, but is no a Linden
* [15:26] Moy Loon: I keep getting the 'reverse' ban issue with my sims on the maingrid, where people on access cannot get in
* [15:26] Oskar Linden: the issue right now is with estate bans on large multi sim estates do not send the ban to all sims right?
* [15:27] Skills Hak: i have alot of people coming back no matter what i do
* [15:27] Maestro Linden: actually, that bug is about setting bans for all estates owned by a user
* [15:27] Maestro Linden: setting bans on multiple estates at once
* [15:27] Gooden Uggla: ok, we'll test that
* [15:27] Memorial Dae: There is also the issue with the object entry being overrun
* [15:27] NeoBokrug Elytis: Do you think that has any relation to returning all objects owed by a user in the estate?
* [15:27] Maestro Linden: only the estate that you set the ban in will have the ban set properly (and work immediately)
* [15:27] Gooden Uggla: object entry works? since when?
* [15:27] NeoBokrug Elytis: Such as other sims not recieving the command to do a certain thing?
* [15:28] Gooden Uggla: turning that off has never worked on my estate
* [15:28] NeoBokrug Elytis: Because that's broke too. I wonder if the JIRAs are around the same time period.
* [15:28] Roberto Salubrius: nice sim border crossing
* [15:29] Oskar Linden: ok. let's take a sec to talk about 1.40
* [15:29] Sebastean Steamweaver: (was on another grid) Maestro: storing the positions and scales of the prims in the linkset is not always a possibility, especially in third party scripts, or scripts with many prims. Storing that info should not be necessary to resize.
* [15:29] Memorial Dae: Ok Oskar
* [15:29] Maestro Linden: like sims in other estates immediately ejecting the banned avatar
* [15:29] Oskar Linden: Milo is here today
* [15:29] Oskar Linden: if you haven't met him yet say hi
* [15:29] Oskar Linden: :-)
* [15:29] Chalice Yao: Hi Milo!
* [15:29] Memorial Dae: Hi Milo!!
* [15:29] Oskar Lindenri: Ashton: already said hi and asked for his bear :D
* [15:29] SHAMUS Carter: hi milo
* [15:29] NeoBokrug Elytis: Hello.
* [15:29] Moy Loon: Hey!
* [15:29] Milo Linden: hey everyone :)
* [15:29] Ima Mechanique: hi Milo
* [15:29] Xugu Madison: Hi Milo, I'm Xugu, I tend not to bite. Mostly. Not hard, anyway
* [15:29] Roberto Salubrius: 1.40 havok 7 right ?
* [15:29] Rex Cronon: hi milo
* [15:29] Oskar Linden: Maestro was the QA lead for 1.38 and Milo will be the QA lead for 1.40
* [15:29] Sebastean Steamweaver: Hey Falcon
* [15:29] Falcon Linden: Roberto: 1.42
* [15:29] Falcon Linden: Hi Sebastean
* [15:30] Roberto Salubrius: oh ok delayed good
* [15:30] Roberto Salubrius: thanks falcon
* [15:30] Xugu Madison: Oskar, so basically Maestro may get some sleep once 1.38 goes live? :)
* [15:30] Maestro Linden: that's the hope!
* [15:30] Roberto Salubrius: milo I think we have met before
* [15:30] Moundsa Mayo: Allo, Milo
* [15:30] Lares Carter: heya Milo :)
* [15:30] Falcon Linden: Roberto: Thanks for the vote of confidence :)
* [15:30] ANSI Soderstrom: damn, can u stop it to overrun little linden bears ?
* [15:30] Roberto Salubrius: falcon :)
* [15:30] Oskar Linden: maestro will get some rest once 1.38 goes live UNLESS bunnies die
* [15:30] Memorial Dae: Technically cant he sleep on one of the couches in teh basement while still working on his laptop?
* [15:31] Xugu Madison: hey Falcon!
* [15:31] Falcon Linden: Roberto: NB - it was not delayed due to any dev issues. It was delayed because of other things we're releasing in 1.40 (internal stuff, nothing exciting)
* [15:31] Roberto Salubrius: ok so oskar what good news do you have for us on 1.40 !!! :D
* [15:31] Falcon Linden: Hey Xugu
* [15:31] Oskar Linden: so Milo will be attending these OH's with me and helping lead all the testing efforts for 1.40
* [15:31] Skills Hak: did 1.38 really harm animals? >:/
* [15:31] Xugu Madison: Memorial, I don't think we should encourage Lindens to work on thegrid while sleep deprived...
* [15:31] Oskar Linden: he's working on creating some wiki info to help with testing havok 7
* [15:31] Oskar Linden: yes Skills :-(
* [15:31] Oskar Linden: bunnicide
* [15:31] Oskar Linden: we stopped it just before easter
* [15:31] Milo Linden: lol
* [15:31] Memorial Dae: Sounds awsome *cheers Milo*
* [15:31] Moy Loon: Mmm
* [15:31] Skills Hak: oh lawd
* [15:31] Nomad Padar: mmm
* [15:32] Oskar Linden: did not want the PR S***Storm of killing bunnies on easter weekend
* [15:32] Roberto Salubrius: well havok 4 testing won't be much different than when we did havok 1 .. to 4 , just more experience
* [15:32] Sebastean Steamweaver: And now Oskar is going to distribute bunnies before the next pilot, so we can monitor them for death. Right Oskar?
* [15:32] Sebastean Steamweaver: '1.38 - Animal Tested"
* [15:32] Skills Hak: heheh
* [15:32] Rex Cronon: lol. some pople might take u seriously oskar:)
* [15:32] Xugu Madison: Can we just clone Pink Linden a few thousand times for testing?
* [15:32] Latif Khalifa: Xugu +1
* [15:32] Oskar Lindenri: Ashton: lol
* [15:32] Skills Hak: more fences
* [15:32] Oskar Linden: yes Rex, these same people take SL seriously
* [15:32] Oskar Lindenri: Ashton: Xugu +1
* [15:32] Gooden Uggla: one quick question... who's in charge of making mono work now that it's being tabled (again)?
* [15:33] Memorial Dae: The lawyers say we should move beyond the animal thing and onto the next item
* [15:33] Oskar Linden: people call support and cry when their bunnies die
* [15:33] Oskar Linden: we do what we can to not let that happen
* [15:33] NeoBokrug Elytis: They really do.
* [15:33] CPU Core: ive seen the amounts of money they spend on these bunnys
* [15:33] CPU Core: they are crazy people
* [15:33] Oskar Linden: so that's the status on 1.40
* [15:33] IzzieBellah Hinterland: loves her SL pets ;)
* [15:33] Oskar Linden: I'll update with more info when we can
* [15:33] SHAMUS Carter: almost as crazy as the chickens
* [15:33] Gooden Uggla: i chickens are just as insane
* [15:34] Latif Khalifa: supprot will probably tell them not to run emerald and upgrade the graphics card :p
* [15:34] Oskar Lindenri: Ashton: a bunny that doesnt die would be great :p
* [15:34] Oskar Linden: hopefully we will see 1.40 on ADITI April 29th
* [15:34] Oskar Linden: crosses his fingers
* [15:34] Latif Khalifa: that's their answer to any question
* [15:34] Milo Linden: latif dont forget to clear cache and relog :P
* [15:34] Oskar Linden: 1.38 has pushed some schedules back
* [15:34] Moundsa Mayo: It's all relative. In Oz they say: "See rabbit shoot rabbit"
* [15:34] Gooden Uggla: some?
* [15:34] Xugu Madison: So 1.40 probably hitting live late May at best?
* [15:34] Oskar Linden: so on to Havok 7 info
* [15:34] Oskar Linden: yes Xugu
* [15:34] Falcon Linden: Oooh, I love Havok 7 info
* [15:35] Oskar Lindenri: Ashton: havok 7 !!!, info needed :D
* [15:35] Huns Valen: awriight let's get down to brass tacks
* [15:35] SHAMUS Carter: need input
* [15:35] Moy Loon: h7 needs the norotate flag fixed!
* [15:35] Roberto Salubrius: here's a crazy idea... just going to spit it out, some of us are quite busy doing stuff on the main grid and , even thou we can run 2 clients at the time, why don't you guys put a special pre-pilot area on the main grid, for testing purposes with 1.38, 1.40, 1.42, and others to come so we can do beta work and still be able to do our work on the main grid.
* [15:35] Falcon Linden: Moy: jira
* [15:35] Latif Khalifa: Milo, I was assisting a friend that doesn't get his offline mails sent to his email, works from his alts on the same destination email... I swear to god, support told him to try upgrading his graphics card :P
* [15:35] Nomad Padar: h4 needs the norotate flag fixed!
* [15:35] Latif Khalifa: offline IMs that is
* [15:35] Oskar Linden: so we're gonna try and give falcons code a run for it's money after this
* [15:35] Moy Loon: It's been around since day one of H4
* [15:35] Oskar Linden: not right now!
* [15:35] Oskar Linden: we have some mroe things to go over first
* [15:35] Nomad Padar: we have a jira on it from 08 :/
* [15:35] Nomad Padar: :(
* [15:36] Falcon Linden: Oh, well, if it's that old, can't help ya :P
* [15:36] Oskar Linden: but as soon as we're done here I'll give the word and we'll all run over to the oatmeal sims and try and make them crash
* [15:36] Falcon Linden: Not fixing scripting things that legacy content may rely on
* [15:36] Moy Loon: Bug still exists though =p
* [15:36] Oskar Linden: sound good falcon?
* [15:36] Falcon Linden: At least, not right now
* [15:36] Nomad Padar: lol
* [15:36] Xugu Madison: Yup; I've emptied my inventory into the sims, and they just KEPT WORKING. It's not right. So I'm hoping we can all go try trashing Oatmeal 6 at once. Do keep notes, repros are what we need, obviously...
* [15:36] Falcon Linden: Oskar, a couple things first
* [15:36] SHAMUS Carter: hehe
* [15:36] Nomad Padar: <3 Falcon.
* [15:36] Oskar Linden: ok
* [15:36] Oskar Linden: let's all listen to falcon
* [15:36] Milo Linden: listens
* [15:36] Maestro Linden: Roberto: it's kind of dangerous to put beta-quality code on the main grid, because it can cause content breakage (imagine Egglebury's problems x100 heh)
* [15:36] Sebastean Steamweaver: believes there are some scripts which should move from legacy to history :)
* [15:36] Nomad Padar: I think we just got Falcon punched >_<
* [15:36] Falcon Linden: (1) Everyone listen to what Xugu just said., Repros, notes, jiras!
* [15:37] Roberto Salubrius: Maestro you are right, I was thinking about limited access
* [15:37] Maestro Linden: but, for those of you woh'd like to test in your sims early on, we can export your sims to this grid
* [15:37] Oskar Linden: nice monad
* [15:37] Memorial Dae: Yes we do not want a bunch of non physics vehicles comming apart at sim borders
* [15:37] Milo Linden: and in jiras please make sure you set affects version to havok 7 beta
* [15:37] Falcon Linden: (2) There is a bug that only shows up on the debug sims that will not exist when we deploy. I don't know what causes it, but crashing the region because of that doesn't count :)
* [15:37] Oskar Linden: RT @FalconLinden: (1) Everyone listen to what Xugu just said., Repros, notes, jiras!
* [15:37] Oskar Lindenri: Ashton: falcon, i keep saying the same, but no one even listens, people just fill in a jira without thinking
* [15:38] Falcon Linden: And, with that, I think we can go have some ... fun?
* [15:38] Oskar Linden: no no no
* [15:38] Oskar Linden: not yet
* [15:38] Falcon Linden: Oh
* [15:38] Oskar Lindenri: Ashton: people think that we all have nothing better to do then find out what a jira is all about. we are more busy on working out what is reported then what the solution is
* [15:38] Oskar Linden: hold on
* [15:38] Falcon Linden: Not yet
* [15:38] Falcon Linden: No fun!
* [15:38] Oskar Linden: after the meeting
* [15:38] Milo Linden: aww
* [15:38] Rex Cronon: is there a list of all the jiras about havok7?
* [15:38] Memorial Dae: :(
* [15:39] Oskar Linden: so we have a group hug for kelly on the agenda
* [15:39] Falcon Linden: Rex: There are only 3 and all are resolved
* [15:39] Oskar Linden: let's add maestro to that
* [15:39] Oskar Linden: 1, 2, 3
* [15:39] Moundsa Mayo: Anticipation of fun adds to its enjoyment. IF it ever happens.
* [15:39] Gooden Uggla: who do i request a beta mirror from?
* [15:39] Sebastean Steamweaver: hugs Maestro and Kelly.
* [15:39] Oskar Linden: group hugs kelly and meastro for all the 1.38 insanity
* [15:39] Xugu Madison: grouphugs Maestro, Kelly, and throws Oskar in while he's at it
* [15:39] Gooden Uggla: for one of my regions?
* [15:39] Maestro Linden: heh thanks
* [15:39] SHAMUS Carter: group hug
* [15:39] Memorial Dae: Yes thank you guys for all the awsome work!
* [15:39] Oskar Linden: gooden. talk to me on AGNI
* [15:39] Gooden Uggla: ok, i'll send a note
* [15:39] Oskar Linden: yes. thanks kelly and maestro
* [15:40] Maestro Linden: you're welcome
* [15:40] Oskar Linden: so who had a video they wanted to show?
* [15:40] Sebastean Steamweaver: hugs Falcon just cause he's awesome, and so he can say he did. He hugs Oskar also so it doesn't look weird.
* [15:40] ANSI Soderstrom: cuddle too
* [15:40] Oskar Linden: Demo video showing fast rezzing and collisions of hundreds of physical objects on Havok 7 regions
* [15:40] Latif Khalifa: no improper touching masquaraded as hugz :P
* [15:40] Skills Hak: oh obscure's h7 demo?
* [15:40] Love heart: attachement: Ima Mechanique huggs Kelly Linden
* [15:40] Skills Hak: nice one
* [15:40] Gooden Uggla: i want you to know i appreciate the work
* [15:40] Nomad Padar: Maestro, I think you need an invite to Crouchdancer's Anonymous on Agni :O
* [15:40] Xugu Madison: Could someone hug Babbage for me, BTW, please.
* [15:40] Latif Khalifa: that demo is impressive
* [15:40] Falcon Linden: Glad you liked it :P
* [15:40] Memorial Dae: When hyboria had 1.38 it was awsome, I can not wait till it gets updated again
* [15:41] Gooden Uggla: memorial, it won't act the same
* [15:41] Roberto Salubrius: with this many people , I remember when Vektor used to tell us .. focus on this or that for the next server, can we get some sort of what to look for, so we can focus on aspects you think might be wonky ?
* [15:41] Latif Khalifa: i think that people who think you can send object updates via http and not udp take a look at that one lol
* [15:41] Oskar Linden: is wathching the vid now
* [15:41] Memorial Dae: I know but eventually it will
* [15:41] Yuu Nakamichi: Falcon, can havok simulate waves?
* [15:41] Sebastean Steamweaver: When my sim had 1.38 it was awesome. I miss it :(
* [15:41] Yuu Nakamichi: as in water?
* [15:41] Memorial Dae: After EVERYTHING gets updated
* [15:41] Gooden Uggla: falcon stole my wave to test :P
* [15:41] SHAMUS Carter: hydrodynamics would rock
* [15:41] Oskar Lindenri: Ashton: havok 4 can already similate waves, so 7 sure should be capable of that
* [15:41] Skills Hak: this is why we can't have nice things >:/
* [15:41] NeoBokrug Elytis: A quick google says: 
* [15:41] Ringtail -: Head: Havok 7 Physics testing on Second Life Preview grid
* [15:41] Rex Cronon: latif. which one is beter?
* [15:41] Memorial Dae: rofl @ skills
* [15:41] Falcon Linden: Yuu: Not inherently. I wrote a water simulation that ran using havok once, though.
* [15:41] Nomad Padar: 1 script with a working pacman in SL was dreamy.
* [15:42] Roberto Salubrius: sebastian we all miss 1.38 but better wait for everything to be correct
* [15:42] Xugu Madison: Oh, do we have any waterlogged H7 test sims, BTW? I believe we've got a lack of boat testing..
* [15:42] Sebastean Steamweaver: Hydrodynamics would be so awesome it would lag most of the older systems.
* [15:42] Falcon Linden: Xugu: yes
* [15:42] Oskar Linden: fun video
* [15:42] Falcon Linden: don't know which ones, but yes
* [15:42] Gooden Uggla: xugu there's some water in 9
* [15:42] Gooden Uggla: i picked up my wave there, runs fine
* [15:42] Roberto Salubrius: I saw some water on some oatmeals
* [15:42] Xugu Madison: Falcon, great, I'll go find it later
* [15:42] Milo Linden: Xugu i'll create some more water space
* [15:42] Falcon Linden: Sebastean: It took about 1ms on 4 threads to simulate a 64x64 grid with full interaction with objects in the water
* [15:42] Falcon Linden: Sebastean: so no way it's coming into SL
* [15:42] Falcon Linden: :P
* [15:42] Gooden Uggla: milo that would be great
* [15:43] Roberto Salubrius: can someone leave a working wave on some water sim so we can test surfboards ?
* [15:43] Oskar Linden: Oatmeal 11 has public terrain editable
* [15:43] Oskar Linden: just be nice with that
* [15:43] Oskar Linden: or I will disable it
* [15:43] Nomad Padar: No writing explatives into the ground?
* [15:43] SHAMUS Carter: what is the water simularting was cliejnt side?
* [15:43] Oskar Linden: if you need specific terrain for a test just set it up
* [15:43] Memorial Dae: Skills love your hair
* [15:43] Memorial Dae: Anyone using viewer 2.0? :)
* [15:43] Sebastean Steamweaver: Falcon: I figured ;) If SL ever gets water simulation, it won't be interactive I imagine, it'll just be a render.
* [15:43] Huns Valen: I'd use viewer 2.0 if: (big list)
* [15:43] Xugu Madison: might be using Viewer 2...
* [15:43] Moy Loon: I'm under a 2.0 based client
* [15:43] Falcon Linden: SHAMUS: if it wasn't physically interactive, sure, but synchronizing objects determined by the local sim, yeah...
* [15:44] Gooden Uggla: roberto a wave was on oatmeal 9
* [15:44] Falcon Linden: err, local viewer.
* [15:44] Nomad Padar: I'd use viewer 2.0, and am using a custom client of it! :O
* [15:44] Xugu Madison: Kelly, while we've got ya here, anything you can announce on efficient scripts future work?
* [15:44] Roberto Salubrius: gooden can you keep it there ?
* [15:44] ANSI Soderstrom: i use viewer 2 beta, viewer 2 works not, only the beta
* [15:44] Falcon Linden: Now, once we're running SL sims on PS3's, we can talk about water simulation :)
* [15:44] Gearsawe Stonecutter: jsut waiting for some limits to be removed from 2.0
* [15:44] Xugu Madison: Answers I'll accept include open sobbing over the run time privileges system
* [15:44] SHAMUS Carter: lol
* [15:44] Huns Valen: would be nice if llSetText worked cough harrumph
* [15:44] Oskar Lindenri: Ashton: dont forget that Fall Out 3 game uses the Havok 4 engine, which clearly shows waves and water animations. so it can be done in SL as well, same engines. So Havok 7 should be capable of even more
* [15:44] Gooden Uggla: it got disappeared, can't find it :)
* [15:44] Gooden Uggla: looks at falcon
* [15:44] Falcon Linden: Youri: FallOut 3 waves had nothing to do with Havok
* [15:45] Memorial Dae: looks At Gooden
* [15:45] Xugu Madison: Huns; llSetText() and other script UI work seems to be dropped in favor of client-side plugins. Ask Q Linden, I think...
* [15:45] Gooden Uggla: it's in my agni inventory, been there for a year, it's no longer in aditi inventory
* [15:45] Nomad Padar: Hey, would it even be remotely plausible to revert sims back to older versions of havok? Like, Havok 1?
* [15:45] Falcon Linden: For a good example of wave simulation, look at Resistance 2
* [15:45] Oskar Lindenri: Ashton: Falcon: still needs the engine to produce those, without it isnt doigng much ;)
* [15:45] Nomad Padar: I really miss headjumping :(
* [15:45] Falcon Linden: Nomad: no
* [15:45] Gooden Uggla: i'm going to pick up another copy and ask for a refresh, look ini a couple of days
* [15:45] Roberto Salubrius: well actually havok can emulate water by rendering particles, then make them look watery... it's on the havok presentation but that would need a lot of simulation time... well waves i mean
* [15:46] Moy Loon: I loved how consistant h1 was :(
* [15:46] Memorial Dae: yummy, wattery particles
* [15:46] Huns Valen: ummmmmmmmm I don't know anything about plugins but I do know there are like 8 billion huds that look like boiled ass in 2.0
* [15:46] Falcon Linden: Moy: crashing, you mean?
* [15:46] Nomad Padar: consistently buggy
* [15:46] Sebastean Steamweaver: Particles need to be updated as a whole >.>
* [15:46] Oskar Linden: mmm boiled ass
* [15:46] Moy Loon: Well, if I did something in h1, it was the same each and every time
* [15:46] Milo Linden: the crash rate in havok1 was fun
* [15:46] Falcon Linden: Roberto: Havok isn't good at simulating tons of small dynamic objects like particles.
* [15:46] Nomad Padar: Hey, at least it was consistent, and their was headjumping!
* [15:46] Moy Loon: Even if it means that there was bugs, But in h4 an dlater, it's alot more 'random'
* [15:46] Moy Loon: Escpecialy with avs
* [15:46] Nomad Padar: there*
* [15:46] Huns Valen: I miss crouchbug, someone make that work again thanks
* [15:46] Rex Cronon: thosehuds use shared media?
* [15:46] Falcon Linden: I'd rather have real crouching
* [15:46] Moy Loon: Scripts not getting the real positions of agents until an agent update packet is sent frmo the client
* [15:46] Oskar Lindenri: Ashton: Roberto: true, thats part of their waves and water splashes. so why not use the same idea here?
* [15:47] Memorial Dae: robot voice? what robot voice?
* [15:47] Huns Valen: it's got nothing to do with shared media, someone broke llsettext centering in 2.0 and it made it into production
* [15:47] Falcon Linden: Some day we may have Avatars 2.0 with wholly different and more flexible physics behavior
* [15:47] Moy Loon: And, other things like physics aplpied to avs, such as push, or apply impulse
* [15:47] Moy Loon: Everything is just inconsistant =p
* [15:47] Roberto Salubrius: Falcon I am speaking of the simulations I saw on youtube but that was a highly controlled enviroment, just rendering havok, way too much processing power
* [15:47] Oskar Linden: ok everybody. if we're all done here I'l cut and paste the text and we can go nuts out on the Oatmeals.
* [15:47] Falcon Linden: Moy: see above. We can't change that stuff now, too many things would break. But with Avatars 2.0...
* [15:47] Xugu Madison: Sorry, I was thinking llTextBox
* [15:47] Xugu Madison: Oatmeal 6 everyone!
* [15:47] Falcon Linden: Roberto: ah, yes, well, that works :)
* [15:47] Nomad Padar: I think all avs should be ragdolls with random impulse to each limb, carried only by the torso.
* [15:47] Xugu Madison: Last one there is on a modem..
* [15:47] Huns Valen: yes!!! I want to go nut in oatmeal!!!
* [15:48] Oskar Linden: ok
* [15:48] SHAMUS Carter: wee
* [15:48] Oskar Linden: good meeting
* [15:48] Skills Hak: i heard there are pancakes at oatmeal
* [15:48] Oskar Linden: thanks for coming by everyone!
* [15:48] Rex Cronon: can all the oats sims be crashed?
* [15:48] Oskar Lindenri: Ashton: currently people can turn particles on/off and even tell how much they wish to see. so for that matter there should not be a problem. the problem is LL not wanting to produce it :p
* [15:48] Oskar Linden: falcon get your log sniffer ready
* [15:48] Roberto Salubrius: rex better not for now
* [15:48] Maestro Linden: oh yeah guys,
* [15:48] Memorial Dae: rofl
* [15:48] Falcon Linden: gets his log sniffer ready....err....
* [15:48] Maestro Linden: there was 1 other recent bugfix in 1.38: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-5593
* [15:48] [[User:JIRA-helper: [#SVC-5593|JIRA-helper: [#SVC-5593]]: 
* [15:48] Milo Linden: crash em if you can , but jira it if you do lol
* [15:48] Maestro Linden: (it's kind of obscure though)
* [15:48] Memorial Dae: ok one CHAINMAKER script comming up
* [15:49] Sebastean Steamweaver: Maestro - perhaps not so obscure - I heard about a lot of people who ran into that, especially in RP sims where weapons are common.
* [15:49] Oskar Linden: ok heading to Oatmeal now
* [15:49] Oskar Lindenri: Ashton: skills, forgot your chillpill agian? :p
* [15:49] Maestro Linden: oh ok
* [15:49] Sebastean Steamweaver: There were some RP sims on the pilot rollout last time. So they will be happy to know that's fixed :)
* [15:49] Rex Cronon: i guess we have to regroup in the oats:)
* [15:49] Maestro Linden: hehe ok
* [15:49] Maestro Linden: fair enough
* [15:50] Sebastean Steamweaver: I'll stay here where it's... safe.