User Experience Interest Group/Transcripts/2010-03-04

== Topic ==
User Experience Interest Group Discussion for March 04, 2010.
Topic: Viewer 2 UI (continued).
== Summary ==
No summary is yet available for this meeting. Please edit this page to add one.
== Links ==
* Transcript of last week's discussion
* : no chat input in chat history
* User Interface Improvements - Benjamin Linden's old UI ideas
* : Merge 'nearby chat' (previously 'local chat', 'chat history') into conversation floater
== Transcript ==
[15:13]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Today we're talking more about the Viewer 2 UI. Here's the transcript from last week's discussion, if anyone needs a refresher: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User_Experience_Interest_Group/Transcripts/2010-02-25
[15:13]	Charlette Proto: 	sorry, my Snowglobe 2 experience is a nightmare
[15:14]	Morgaine Dinova waits for Charlette's hair to arrive 	Morgaine Dinova waits for Charlette's hair to arrive
[15:15]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Virtually no more network activity, down at 14 Kbps, and still no hair for Charlette. On Imprudence 1.3.0 Beta 1
[15:15]	Charlette Proto: 	installed Sno 2 in the same directory and the 'good' version is now all scambled
[15:15]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Everyone else sees Charlette's hair?
[15:16]	Robin Cornelius: 	not here
[15:16]	Charlette Proto: 	ATM I'm using the Second Life™ V2 and it stinks
[15:16]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I don't even see her skin.
[15:16]	Robin Cornelius: 	oh hair
[15:16]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Arrived!
[15:16]	Boroondas Gupte: 	now
[15:16]	Robin Cornelius: 	now that was a "shared experience"
[15:16]	Armin Weatherwax: 	you need then something that smells like lilac, Charlette
[15:16]	Chantal Harvey: 	i went back to 1.23
[15:17]	Charlette Proto: 	nice result, maybe V2 has instant delays
[15:17]	Morgaine Dinova: 	That's the sim, isn't it, sicne we all got it together, Unless she re-equipped
[15:17]	Morgaine Dinova: 	LOL Robin
[15:17]	Boroondas Gupte: 	hey, not so bright
[15:17]	Boroondas Gupte covers eyes 	Boroondas Gupte covers eyes
[15:17]	Robin Cornelius: 	might be an appearance issue still, not sending the attahments untill the bakes are sent
[15:17]	Charlette Proto: 	I can't go back to good old snowglobe - lots of UI is broken after uninstalling snow 2
[15:18]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Let's talk about the UI, starting this week with the bottom bar.
[15:18]	Robin Cornelius: 	if you need to revet, kill the user directory
[15:18]	Boroondas Gupte: 	only new system folders etc will persist
[15:18]	Robin Cornelius: 	the bottom bar seems to have a strong focus on voice chat
[15:18]	Boroondas Gupte: 	those are server side
[15:18]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I'll fire it up on another box
[15:18]	Charlette Proto: 	good point Robin, but not very convenient
[15:19]	Chantal Harvey: 	hm i ll relog, brb
[15:19]	Robin Cornelius: 	no i don't like that, the text input is tiny, there is a massive chat button then two big wastes of space for minute by minute use for the controls
[15:19]	Robin Cornelius: 	s/chat/voice/
[15:19]	Robin Cornelius: 	i do however like the idea of the notifications and the IM docking there
[15:19]	Charlette Proto: 	waste or screen realestate seems to be the Version 2 motto
[15:20]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I think it's lot cleaner than before.
[15:20]	Robin Cornelius: 	some of the features look smart and modern but need moving around to make better use of space for sure
[15:21]	Boroondas Gupte: 	the grouping is somewhat more logic in 2.0, maybe
[15:22]	Boroondas Gupte: 	all the local communication stuff is lower left
[15:22]	Robin Cornelius: 	menus are cleaner
[15:22]	Boroondas Gupte: 	yeah
[15:22]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hrm. Where's the switch to toggle voice chat on or off?
[15:22]	Boroondas Gupte: 	not unsimilar to what was proposed on sl-ux quite some while ago
[15:23]	Geneko Nemeth: 	It's the "Speak" button.
[15:23]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I find the look much more modern and graphically appealing. But nothing in the UI placement seems more logical or clean to me.
[15:23]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I mean to enable/disable the whole feature
[15:23]	Geneko Nemeth: 	You mute it.
[15:23]	Geneko Nemeth: 	In prefs.
[15:23]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Oh. There's the checkbox in prefrs, next to the volume slider.
[15:24]	Chantal Harvey: 	still a cloud
[15:24]	Charlette Proto: 	I get voice for a few people, but most don't have a dot
[15:25]	Jacek Antonelli: 	What do you guys think of the buttons they chose to put on the bottom? Speak, Gesture, Move, View, Snapshot?
[15:25]	Geneko Nemeth: 	It's rather hard to translate.
[15:25]	Armin Weatherwax: 	move is and ever was useless. the cam control is horrible.
[15:26]	Chantal Harvey: 	i agree
[15:26]	Boroondas Gupte: 	Cam control could be made useful by making it analogue
[15:26]	Armin Weatherwax: 	but i like the idea of having a cam control in the overlaybar
[15:26]	Geneko Nemeth: 	It's been like that for a long, long time.
[15:27]	Robin Cornelius: 	hmm is it me or has 2.0 changed the sit behaviour?
[15:28]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I think it might be my script...
[15:28]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Are there any of those buttons that you would remove from the bottom bar? Or others you would add?
[15:28]	Boroondas Gupte: 	Map should be there
[15:28]	Armin Weatherwax: 	map and minimap are missing
[15:29]	Chantal Harvey: 	every time i switch from old to new viewer, i get mashed up, sometimes naked, or 3 outfits in combination, it is hilarious
[15:29]	Robin Cornelius: 	iv'e got patched data locations to avoid such things
[15:30]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Map and minimap. Anything else feels like it is missing/needed?
[15:30]	Chantal Harvey: 	and i now have folders in the old viewer, that came from the new one, it s ...a miracle
[15:30]	Chantal Harvey: 	well the control alt and f1 option
[15:30]	Chantal Harvey: 	it should be easier, or at least working
[15:30]	Geneko Nemeth: 	That is still there.
[15:30]	Chantal Harvey: 	pertly
[15:30]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Is that to hide the UI?
[15:30]	Chantal Harvey: 	yes
[15:30]	Chantal Harvey: 	the top bar wont hide anymore
[15:31]	Chantal Harvey: 	so for me, 2.0 is useless
[15:31]	Chantal Harvey: 	as long as that is not fixed
[15:31]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yes, it seems buggy.
[15:31]	Boroondas Gupte: 	that sound like a plain oversight. filed on jira?
[15:31]	Chantal Harvey: 	yes
[15:31]	Morgaine Dinova: 	WTH. The new update didn't fix 100% obvious faults like the 2-inch wide vicinity chat input box.
[15:31]	Morgaine Dinova: 	(Just downlaoded)
[15:31]	Chantal Harvey: 	and amanda promised it would be fixed on next update, but that didnt happen
[15:32]	Boroondas Gupte: 	the new update only brought new vivox.
[15:32]	Jacek Antonelli: 	The side dashboard doesn't hide either.
[15:32]	Chantal Harvey: 	it does with control alt f1
[15:32]	Charlette Proto: 	rather glad that LL didn't develop my OS
[15:32]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Ah. I can't do Ctrl Alt F1, I'm on Linux.
[15:32]	Michelle2 Zenovka: 	ctrl+alt+f1 thats linux change VT!
[15:32]	Jacek Antonelli: 	So I tried from the menu
[15:33]	Chantal Harvey: 	ah
[15:33]	Chantal Harvey: 	interesting
[15:33]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Add a Shift I think on Linux is the general rule, no?
[15:33]	Boroondas Gupte: 	not for this one
[15:33]	Jacek Antonelli: 	That won't help here, Morg. Still switches terminals
[15:34]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yep, you're right, just tried it, still switches. Bah
[15:34]	Chantal Harvey: 	i really miss the inspect option, from the pie menu...is that anywhere else now
[15:34]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Another question: Did any of you notice that it's possible to hide most of the bottom bars by right clicking on the bottom bar?
[15:34]	Jacek Antonelli: 	*most of the bottom bar buttons
[15:34]	Boroondas Gupte: 	Chantal, no, but itl come back
[15:34]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Yeah, why would anyone want to do that?
[15:34]	Chantal Harvey: 	do what, geneko
[15:34]	Robin Cornelius: 	ah cool, annoying buttons removed
[15:34]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Geneko: Why would they want to hide the buttons?
[15:35]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Yeah.
[15:35]	Charlette Proto: 	but the bar remains unlike the old viewer
[15:35]	Morgaine Dinova: 	That's very good, being able to remove unwanted UI elements.
[15:35]	Robin Cornelius: 	custom buttons would be good, and easy to do too
[15:35]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Of course, you should be able to ADD elements too
[15:35]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yes, it's nice. But no one else noticed it?
[15:35]	Charlette Proto: 	yes that would be nice Morgaine
[15:35]	Robin Cornelius: 	i was fighting too much else to notice that one
[15:36]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek: not noticed because we're not accustomed to right-clicking frame in LL viewers yet.
[15:36]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I assume that no one noticed that you can also hide the top bars as well, by right clicking
[15:36]	Robin Cornelius: 	yes, that was intrusive enough stright away to warrent trying that
[15:36]	Boroondas Gupte knew that 	Boroondas Gupte knew that
[15:36]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hehe, I guess I am a curious monkey, right clicking everything compulsively
[15:36]	Charlette Proto: 	is anyone experiencing texture loading problems? I never did before ver 2 and see a lot of gray now
[15:36]	Robin Cornelius: 	i miss my pie
[15:37]	Boroondas Gupte: 	try right-clicking names in chat history ... fancy new options there
[15:37]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I'm actually quite pleased with what they've done with right click menus
[15:37]	Boroondas Gupte misses the pies 	Boroondas Gupte misses the pies
[15:37]	Chantal Harvey: 	same for me charlette
[15:37]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Setting aside the pie menu, that is
[15:37]	Chantal Harvey: 	takes forever
[15:37]	Morgaine Dinova: 	The trouble with removing the address bar is that the Home button disappears with it --- would be great if that could be dragged to the bottom bar
[15:38]	Morgaine Dinova tries dragging just in case .... 	Morgaine Dinova tries dragging just in case ....
[15:38]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehe
[15:38]	Robin Cornelius: 	hmm need a dragable/dockable xui element
[15:38]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Awwww :-( no
[15:38]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah.
[15:38]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yeah
[15:38]	Boroondas Gupte: 	but lockable, too, so you don't reconfigure your UI by mistake
[15:38]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I want to revamp the XUI system so that there are "actions" that can be buttons, menus, whatever. Then drag them around anywhere.
[15:38]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Bor++
[15:39]	Jacek Antonelli: 	And change key bindings
[15:39]	Morgaine Dinova: 	That's what we had in Anarchy Online's client, draggable and lockable
[15:39]	Jacek Antonelli: 	But I'm too busy porting features from other viewers to do anything cool. >_< *sigh*
[15:39]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Erm. Never mind me. I'm just wallowing in self-pity.
[15:39]	Morgaine Dinova: 	lol
[15:40]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Let's talk about the chat system for a while
[15:40]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek: no self-pity needed --- Imprudence 1.3.0 Beta 1 is totally brilliant!
[15:40]	Jacek Antonelli: 	The chat bar, the "toasts" that pop up, the chat history, etc.
[15:40]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Leave aside IMs for now
[15:41]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek: those decorations are no help to me. And very distracting
[15:41]	Geneko Nemeth: 	...
[15:42]	Morgaine Dinova: 	And much worse (damn, must get this into Jira), the decorative popups seems to be interrupting chat character input. Every now and then you get a beep instead of the character entering
[15:42]	Boroondas Gupte: 	Actually, I like the little profile picture icons. Helps distinguishing people that have similar looking names. Though, I'd be nice to have them inline to save space.
[15:42]	Charlette Proto: 	I hate the chat 'toasts' even more than the bell sounds (if enabled) in the old viewer
[15:43]	Boroondas Gupte: 	*it'd
[15:43]	Charlette Proto: 	the fixed size sidebar really is a failure
[15:43]	Boroondas Gupte: 	yeah
[15:43]	Chantal Harvey: 	hm
[15:44]	Chantal Harvey: 	i prefer it siazble
[15:44]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Let's stay on the topic of chat for now
[15:44]	Chantal Harvey: 	but that s a personal pref
[15:44]	Chantal Harvey: 	chat is merged, now, i see - much better
[15:44]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I'm astonished that the two chiclets at bottom right are the only way to get Conversations and Notices up. They're not even labelled, except by mouseover.
[15:44]	Charlette Proto: 	needless to say, besides waste and the camera movement the fixed width is very limiting
[15:44]	Jacek Antonelli: 	How about the "Nearby Chat" / chat history popup? Thoughts on that?
[15:45]	Morgaine Dinova: 	If 2.0 is for newbies, it's a total fail. No map button, no conversations button
[15:45]	Jacek Antonelli: 	That's doing Ctrl-H or clicking the little up arrow next to the chat entry
[15:45]	Boroondas Gupte: 	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-17545
[15:45]	Boroondas Gupte: 	the dual input on 1.x was really useful
[15:45]	Charlette Proto: 	I managed to miss a friend invite (alt) using Ver 2
[15:45]	Geneko Nemeth: 	asdfds
[15:46]	Boroondas Gupte: 	if you say so ...
[15:46]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Recall is now Ctrl+↑
[15:46]	Chantal Harvey: 	i do not want the whole right part of my screen filled like that, i want to be able to make it smaller
[15:46]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Geneko: That hasn't changed, did it?
[15:47]	Charlette Proto: 	agree Chantal or bigger when need be e.g. profiles
[15:47]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Recall history always was Ctrl + up/down arrows
[15:47]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Hmm... I guess not.
[15:47]	Boroondas Gupte: 	That was originally a Snowglobe feature, wasn't it?
[15:47]	Chantal Harvey: 	i payed for my supernice moniti=or size
[15:48]	Chantal Harvey: 	and now it s limited
[15:48]	Chantal Harvey: 	lol
[15:48]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Don't think so Bor, I don't remember NOT having history in SL chat
[15:48]	Boroondas Gupte: 	really?
[15:48]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Yeah really!
[15:48]	Robin Cornelius: 	ok got to run catch you all again on irc/awg/next week ;-)
[15:49]	Morgaine Dinova: 	That I don't remember it, yes, really, hehe
[15:49]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I remember it was a user-contributed feature on JIRA. But it pre-dated Snowglobe
[15:49]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Take care Robin, thanks for coming by :)
[15:49]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Cyu Robin :-)
[15:49]	Charlette Proto: 	byee Robin
[15:49]	Boroondas Gupte: 	ah, that might be
[15:49]	Chantal Harvey: 	what i love is the possibility to make the chatwindow smaller
[15:49]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yes, that's nice
[15:50]	Jacek Antonelli: 	You can resize it much more, now that they haven' crammed friends/group list in the same window
[15:50]	Charlette Proto: 	but even the old chat window size was reasonable
[15:50]	Geneko Nemeth tries, finds it so small it's funny. 	Geneko Nemeth tries, finds it so small it's funny.
[15:51]	Chantal Harvey: 	hehe but a choice is always good
[15:51]	Jacek Antonelli: 	How do you mean "old", Charlette? 1.23, or pre-Communicate?
[15:51]	Morgaine Dinova: 	We are talking about the chat window ONCE CHANGED TO PLAIN, right? Because I just can't imagine anyone using the icon-diseased horror.
[15:51]	Charlette Proto: 	the 1.23 etc
[15:51]	Jacek Antonelli: 	heh Morg
[15:52]	Charlette Proto: 	when you add the size of Chat and Conversations (caps) the sensible size (paractical) is bigger
[15:52]	Morgaine Dinova: 	No seriously
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Don't hold back, tell us how you really feel about it ;)
[15:52]	Morgaine Dinova: 	OK, in plain language? Does anyone ever use the iconic version?
[15:52]	Charlette Proto: 	the icon chat is really bad
[15:52]	Geneko Nemeth: 	It's not that bad, but...
[15:52]	Chantal Harvey: 	it s a bit confusing
[15:53]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I don't use Viewer 2 often enough to say whether I like the icons or not
[15:53]	Boroondas Gupte: 	As I said, I like the icons, but I hate they take a whole line of their own.
[15:53]	Boroondas Gupte: 	would be nice just to have them next to the text, like the timestamp
[15:53]	Jacek Antonelli: 	The icon chat view is more functional (it allows some actions on the speaker, even objects
[15:53]	Morgaine Dinova: 	They take up 3 lines, not one. And they're think lines, not like the plain ones. Every conversation except with a sloth on depressants rolls off before you can read it.
[15:54]	Morgaine Dinova: 	thick* lines
[15:54]	Charlette Proto: 	frankly Jacek I've gone from 100 hours plus a week of Second Life™ to about 10, the developments of the last few months made me get over it
[15:55]	Boroondas Gupte spends less time in SL and more time compiling it 	Boroondas Gupte spends less time in SL and more time compiling it
[15:55]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yeah. Roll on Naali, even though there is nothing usable yet
[15:55]	Charlette Proto: 	but I would feel stronger about some of the problems (besides low FPS) if I was still hooked
[15:55]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I am fascinated by this window docking behavior.
[15:55]	Boroondas Gupte: 	window docking?
[15:56]	Boroondas Gupte: 	oh, the little down-arrows in the title bar?
[15:56]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Being able to tear off the chat history and move it around, then click the icon to reattach it to the bottom bar
[15:56]	Charlette Proto: 	the magnetised floaters Jacek?
[15:56]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Same with IMs
[15:56]	Boroondas Gupte: 	yeah
[15:57]	Charlette Proto: 	that isn't bad at all, but HUD behaviour is still poor (half of Misty Toll is hidden now)
[15:57]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hrm. I was just thinking.... how none of the ideas Benjamin Linden came up with in his old UI mockup were incorporated into Viewer 2.
[15:57]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Ahahahaha.
[15:58]	Charlette Proto: 	Benjamin didn't really cut cake for me
[15:58]	Jacek Antonelli: 	He had a radical docking idea, where nearly everything in the UI would slide out from the sides of the screen when you hovered the mouse in that area
[15:58]	Morgaine Dinova: 	God, hover
[15:58]	Morgaine Dinova: 	UI.accessibility == 0
[15:58]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Well, who would you trust? A internal department that only had 2 years of experience or an outside consultant that had many items under their portfolio and charges $$$ per hour?
[15:59]	Charlette Proto: 	hover is a bad UI paradigm, very mouse oriented
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Here's what I'm referring to: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User_Interface_Improvements
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Perhaps his concept was deemed too strange and unfriendly to newbies
[16:00]	Boroondas Gupte: 	a hover trigger doesn't mean there can't be a key combo, too
[16:00]	Armin Weatherwax: 	but that sounds interesting
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli: 	It certainly has the advantage of not obscuring the view as much
[16:01]	Charlette Proto: 	no it doesn't and I agree the sidebar is even more clumsy
[16:01]	Boroondas Gupte: 	The biggest disadvantage of hover is probably interfering with interaction with inworld objects
[16:01]	Chantal Harvey: 	yes
[16:01]	Boroondas Gupte: 	i.e. something sliding out and getting in your way, when you don't expect it
[16:01]	Chantal Harvey: 	like windows 7 does all the time
[16:02]	Charlette Proto: 	I'm sick of the little button/icons on the side already, text has less of a visual fatigue
[16:03]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, let's move on and talk a while about IMs and group conversations, and whatever else pops up from the little conrner icon
[16:03]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Notices.
[16:04]	Charlette Proto: 	unlike CHAT, CONVERSATIONS window is big and I wish it worked like it did before - tear off
[16:04]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Not notices yet, just the "Conversations"
[16:04]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Well first of all, those chiclets are meaningless. And hover only
[16:04]	Charlette Proto: 	Jacek, please send a group notice
[16:04]	Jacek Antonelli: 	How do you feel about the IM window?
[16:05]	Boroondas Gupte: 	I hope you all found the tabbed IM option in Preferences?
[16:05]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yep, tabbed and of course plain text
[16:06]	Charlette Proto: 	IM window? you mean the lag of loading names from huge groups - the lag is aparent even not showing pictures
[16:06]	Chantal Harvey: 	not sure i found that
[16:06]	Charlette Proto: 	haha
[16:06]	Charlette Proto: 	I just wish I could attach or tear off CONERSATONS from the main CHAT window
[16:07]	Charlette Proto: 	don't see why would they separate the two windows and text entry boxes
[16:07]	Morgaine Dinova: 	No vertical tabs, right? At least I couldn't find the control for vertical tabs when I was using 2.0
[16:08]	Boroondas Gupte: 	Charlette http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-17332
[16:08]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I use vertical tabs as standard now in Imprudence
[16:08]	Charlette Proto: 	is that an improvement?
[16:08]	Charlette Proto: 	ah I voted
[16:09]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Merging is fine as long as you can tear it off, of course.
[16:09]	Chantal Harvey: 	again, choice...is a good thing
[16:09]	Chantal Harvey: 	so many ppl, so many wishes
[16:09]	Armin Weatherwax: 	VWR-17332 describes btw also a general issue: number of mousclicks increased for almost anything
[16:09]	Geneko Nemeth laughs at the presentation of notification URBannedFromRegion: A toaster with a button. An "OK" button.	Geneko Nemeth laughs at the presentation of notification URBannedFromRegion: A toaster with a button. An "OK" button.
[16:09]	Chantal Harvey: 	i love the new interface
[16:10]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Geneko: It should be "Awww, darn"
[16:10]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I always keep vicinity separate in 1.x, even though it can be merged, simply because cross-referencing from vicinity to Groupies is so common
[16:11]	Jacek Antonelli: 	What do you guys think of the IM window having the person's picture and action buttons in the (hidable) left panel?
[16:11]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Useful? Or waste of space?
[16:11]	Boroondas Gupte: 	action buttons are waste of space ... that's what context menus are for
[16:11]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Having a picture is nice.
[16:11]	Armin Weatherwax: 	if i want to use twitter I use twitter.... waste.
[16:12]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek: well it's a pointless feature since clicking on the left bit just opens up the sidebar
[16:12]	Boroondas Gupte: 	I'd like to get the sort options from 1.x back
[16:13]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Which sort options? To sort the group list?
[16:13]	Boroondas Gupte: 	there I can choose between alphabetical and who most recently said something, I think
[16:13]	Boroondas Gupte: 	in the conversation participation list
[16:13]	Chantal Harvey: 	sort freinds list...uh no different subject
[16:13]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Ah
[16:14]	Boroondas Gupte: 	also, general issue: in 1.x you can just start typing into almost any list that has focus to jump to the entry that starts with what you type
[16:14]	Boroondas Gupte: 	doesn't work in 2.0
[16:15]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Indeed
[16:15]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hrm. We're after 4:00. What other things in the UI have we not talked about yet?
[16:15]	Chantal Harvey: 	hey i just found a way to work around the large list on the right...you file/open new window, and use that one
[16:16]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Apparently others aren't seeing our Imprudence tags, according to the answers I got when I asked among a bunch of Emerald users
[16:16]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Chantal: For Inventory?
[16:16]	Boroondas Gupte: 	I have some idea about brining pie menus back without their drawbacks, but I think I'll send that to sl-ux
[16:16]	Chantal Harvey: 	yes
[16:16]	Boroondas Gupte: 	need to write that down properly
[16:16]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Cool, Boroondas. I'll look forward to that email :)
[16:17]	Chantal Harvey: 	file, new window, then close the tabs and work from the newly opened window
[16:17]	Charlette Proto: 	great now we can use the old style Inventory window and keep the new sidebar closed
[16:17]	Chantal Harvey: 	yea
[16:17]	Boroondas Gupte: 	the basic idea is to only have the most common options in the pie and allow for a conventional context menu for more options
[16:17]	Chantal Harvey: 	<---happy
[16:17]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I also heard that you can open a new inventory window with Ctrl-Shift-I, although I don't see it documented anywhere
[16:18]	Boroondas Gupte: 	ctrl-Shift-i works
[16:18]	Geneko Nemeth: 	No it doesn't.
[16:18]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Ctrl-I works.
[16:18]	Jacek Antonelli: 	They do different things, Geneko. Ctrl-i opens the inventory side panel. Ctrl-shift-i opens a new inventory window
[16:18]	Boroondas Gupte: 	what Jacek said
[16:18]	Charlette Proto: 	Ctrl I does the main sidebar Inventory not the floating (old style) one
[16:19]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Hmm.
[16:19]	Chantal Harvey: 	ha yes
[16:19]	Chantal Harvey: 	tha t s a fast way ty!
[16:19]	Chantal Harvey: 	is there a shortlist, i bet there is
[16:19]	Charlette Proto: 	ah good, I'll like Ctrl Shift I
[16:19]	Boroondas Gupte: 	shortcut list?
[16:19]	Charlette Proto: 	Advanced > Shortcuts
[16:20]	Jacek Antonelli: 	What else in the UI should we talk about? Build tools are mostly the same I think
[16:20]	Charlette Proto: 	not sure how but I now have a new menu "Develop"
[16:20]	Morgaine Dinova: 	The New Window command from Inventory still doesn't remember where it was last placed
[16:20]	Chantal Harvey: 	there s a develop at the top...
[16:20]	Chantal Harvey: 	that s new
[16:20]	Charlette Proto: 	ah the last item in Advanced
[16:20]	Chantal Harvey: 	yes
[16:21]	Morgaine Dinova: 	How about talking about the "Me" manu?
[16:21]	Boroondas Gupte: 	oh, for anyone tweaking XUI files: try ctrl-alt-(shift)-d on the login screen and then ctrl-t :-D
[16:21]	Morgaine Dinova: 	They wanted it to look like a web browser, we're told. So where is File, and why Me instead?
[16:21]	Charlette Proto: 	except for Chantal everything has finally loaded for me
[16:22]	Chantal Harvey: 	wow
[16:22]	Chantal Harvey: 	how long did that take, almost an hour
[16:22]	Boroondas Gupte: 	well, in web browsers, "file" just contains all the stuff that doesn't fit elsewhere
[16:22]	Chantal Harvey: 	i have that too, and was told by a linden that it should make NO difference, old or new viewer
[16:22]	Morgaine Dinova: 	ARC 100000000000000000000000000000
[16:22]	Morgaine Dinova: 	:P
[16:22]	Charlette Proto: 	Me is really not the best name, but it is precisely like the "Avatar" menu I talked about when we looked at refactoring the main menu items
[16:22]	Boroondas Gupte: 	most of it doesn't have to do with files
[16:23]	Geneko Nemeth: 	It's... more like what applications before web browsers would put in the File menu.
[16:24]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Open, close, print save.
[16:24]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Well there should be a File, because Upload and Export and both file operations.
[16:24]	Armin Weatherwax: 	dunno - the german translation of the "me" menu is "Ich" which rather translates back to "I" ... is a "Me" menu as strange as a "I" menu ?
[16:24]	Boroondas Gupte: 	iMenu(tm)
[16:24]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehehe
[16:24]	Armin Weatherwax: 	lol
[16:25]	Chantal Harvey: 	hehe
[16:25]	Boroondas Gupte: 	Armin, I don't think you can carry over casus when translating this stuff out of sentences
[16:26]	Boroondas Gupte: 	or you get stuff like the eBay "mich-Seite"n
[16:26]	Armin Weatherwax: 	yeah, of course you are right , Boroondas, ut what did you think about the "Ich" menu ?
[16:26]	Morgaine Dinova starts to itch 	Morgaine Dinova starts to itch
[16:26]	Armin Weatherwax: 	yeah
[16:26]	Boroondas Gupte: 	I think it's a nice idea. Has all the stuff that's about YOU.
[16:27]	Boroondas Gupte: 	(well, almost ... maybe more should be moved to there)
[16:27]	Armin Weatherwax: 	ok, then have a YOU menu
[16:27]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Maybe. But I'd still put a File top menu leftmost.
[16:27]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Old habits die hard?
[16:27]	Charlette Proto: 	my "Avatar" menu was a better choice I think
[16:28]	Armin Weatherwax: 	Im using a File menu at the left since I had a ATARI 260ST
[16:28]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Actually, the only thing this menu layout has in common with the conventional layout (File, Edit, View, Tools, Help) is that Help is on the right (unless you have Advanced enabled)
[16:28]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Gen: a "File" menu is needed because there are File operations, so it's more than habit. And why not put it where it always is?
[16:29]	Geneko Nemeth: 	All three of them?
[16:29]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Lots more are possible, just that LL is pretty stingy in import/export.
[16:29]	Charlette Proto: 	yup file operations should have the File menu
[16:30]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I can't even find the Upload of equivalent in 2.0
[16:31]	Morgaine Dinova: 	or*
[16:31]	Boroondas Gupte: 	it's in the inventory's menu
[16:31]	Chantal Harvey: 	yes in invent
[16:31]	Boroondas Gupte: 	(or use the Ctrl-U shortcut)
[16:31]	Charlette Proto: 	there is Add at the bottom of Inventory Morgaine
[16:31]	Chantal Harvey: 	under file
[16:31]	Morgaine Dinova: 	You are kidding me
[16:31]	Charlette Proto: 	sorry a "+"
[16:31]	Morgaine Dinova: 	OMG
[16:32]	Chantal Harvey: 	control u is wonderful!
[16:32]	Morgaine Dinova: 	And this is UI design? Finding an obscure '+' somewhere is meant to be newbie friendly?
[16:32]	Boroondas Gupte: 	It's also in the inventory's menu
[16:32]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Have you heard of newbies needing to upload textures?
[16:32]	Chantal Harvey: 	not sure, we should ask newbies
[16:32]	Boroondas Gupte: 	but still a discoverability nightmare
[16:32]	Chantal Harvey: 	we are different sort of users
[16:33]	Geneko Nemeth: 	See? Working as designed! And we're totally not asking the newbies about it. XD
[16:33]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Putting upload in inventory seems natural to me?
[16:33]	Boroondas Gupte: 	it is
[16:33]	Charlette Proto: 	yes I agree Jacek
[16:33]	Boroondas Gupte: 	but it should also be somewhere in the main menu, I think
[16:33]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Nothing wrong putting it in inventory. Just the '+' isn't obvious
[16:33]	Jacek Antonelli: 	It's also in the inventory's File menu
[16:34]	Boroondas Gupte: 	yeah
[16:34]	Geneko Nemeth: 	And that should be obvious enough.
[16:34]	Jacek Antonelli: 	And once you understand that the "+" means "Make a new item", it makes sense
[16:34]	Armin Weatherwax: 	more technically speaking ... rebasing on that will drive us insane if we want anything usable for a user that isn't a computer noob
[16:34]	Boroondas Gupte: 	well, took me some time to find it
[16:34]	Charlette Proto: 	"+" is a poor choice of icon but the text under file is a natural choice
[16:34]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yep, it's OK there in Inv->File->Upload
[16:34]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Personally, I think their icon use is poor
[16:35]	Boroondas Gupte: 	the gear is also very obscure
[16:35]	Boroondas Gupte: 	gear icon
[16:35]	Charlette Proto: 	yup a disk icon would have been better than a "+"
[16:35]	Chantal Harvey: 	i find the link on the inlog page has improved, the clickable link, is much clearer - took me a long time to grasp that this was a clickable link, in the old viewer
[16:35]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yes, I'm not a fan of how they use the gear to mean "perform an action"
[16:36]	Charlette Proto: 	but what does a disk look like these days
[16:36]	Charlette Proto: 	gear is 'settings' on most devices
[16:36]	Boroondas Gupte: 	or other "technical" stuff
[16:36]	Charlette Proto: 	a cog
[16:36]	Boroondas Gupte: 	not everyday actions
[16:36]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yes, I expected it to be configuration
[16:36]	Charlette Proto: 	same here
[16:37]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Which is how I planned to use it in Imprudence. Now everyone will be confused when I do. *shakes her fist at LL*
[16:37]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I have a better idea for layout. Shorten address bar, move Search left, move L$ balance and Time left, delete godawful media controls, and extend the sidebar to the top. Then the Inventory File, Create, Sort menus will end up on the top bar, so it'll look like an extension of the LH menus.
[16:37]	Boroondas Gupte: 	what LL uses the gear for would be much better a little triangle (simplified up arrow), to indicate > "look, there's more"
[16:37]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Jacek: Try the wrench.
[16:38]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah, a wrench would be good too
[16:38]	Armin Weatherwax: 	lol, jus was looking up the word, yes, a wrench sounds good
[16:39]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Although... Google Chrome uses a wrench to mean something else
[16:39]	Boroondas Gupte thows in screw drivers 	Boroondas Gupte thows in screw drivers
[16:39]	Chantal Harvey: 	ah tell me then, what is a wrench lol
[16:39]	Chantal Harvey: 	i m a dutchie
[16:39]	Charlette Proto: 	spanner is better than wrench (word)
[16:39]	Chantal Harvey: 	ah a spanner
[16:39]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Screwdrivers don't have a recognizable sihoette.
[16:39]	Charlette Proto: 	yup
[16:39]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Same thing, US vs Brit words
[16:39]	Chantal Harvey: 	hm that s a drink i think
[16:39]	Jacek Antonelli: 	How about a hammer pounding a UI developer on the head for stealing my gear icon idea?
[16:39]	Geneko Nemeth: 	A hammer would be better.
[16:39]	Chantal Harvey: 	a screwdriver, yammie
[16:39]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hahahaha
[16:39]	Chantal Harvey: 	sledgehammer
[16:39]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Gen++
[16:40]	Armin Weatherwax: 	sickle
[16:40]	Geneko Nemeth: 	barley!
[16:40]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Make it a hamme rand sickle, to keep Prok happy
[16:40]	Jacek Antonelli: 	But the hammer icon should make a 3D hammer appear and smash everything on your screen to relieve your stress
[16:40]	Charlette Proto: 	the word "tool" isn't PG any more
[16:41]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehe
[16:41]	Chantal Harvey: 	hahahahaha
[16:41]	Geneko Nemeth: 	hammer, sickle, gear, what other elements on the seal of People's Repblic of China hasn't we mentioned yet?
[16:41]	Charlette Proto: 	need to keep Second Life™ helpfiles clean for the kiddies
[16:41]	Boroondas Gupte: 	http://plywoodcomic.com/strip61.htm
[16:41]	Chantal Harvey: 	try and take the name natassja, when creating a new avatar, i dare u
[16:41]	Chantal Harvey: 	cos it contains ass
[16:41]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehehe Boroondas
[16:42]	Charlette Proto: 	haha
[16:42]	Charlette Proto: 	Dickburns would be out I suppose
[16:42]	Charlette Proto: 	used to be the most notorious griefer in Korea1
[16:43]	Chantal Harvey: 	i know some guy in rl, his name is cock
[16:43]	Chantal Harvey: 	honest
[16:43]	Charlette Proto: 	every second name under the Second Life™ sun
[16:43]	Chantal Harvey: 	that is possible in holland, but not in sl
[16:43]	Chantal Harvey: 	hey where is the search function
[16:43]	Boroondas Gupte: 	ctrl-f
[16:43]	Chantal Harvey: 	ty
[16:44]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah, Ctrl-F, or just type it in the top right
[16:44]	Boroondas Gupte: 	and, top right
[16:44]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Since there aren't separate searches anymore :\
[16:44]	Boroondas Gupte: 	also, if you type gibberish into the location bar instead of slurls, it'll search for it
[16:44]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Interesting
[16:44]	Charlette Proto: 	one weird question; my ARC doubled in viewer 2, even Morgaine is over 4k - is it the new rendering engine or a better measure
[16:45]	Chantal Harvey: 	ah great
[16:45]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Probably a different measure, Charlette
[16:45]	Geneko Nemeth: 	It's the measure changed, I think, before, one prim is 1 pt, now it's 10pt... I think
[16:45]	Charlette Proto: 	ah attachments would make sense Gen
[16:46]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Oh, is everyone red ARC now then?
[16:46]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Only your. :>
[16:46]	Charlette Proto: 	nearly, Armin you and me
[16:47]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I'm still 1492 in Imprudence
[16:47]	Charlette Proto: 	your sword is worth a lot more now Morgaine
[16:47]	Morgaine Dinova: 	And it's just my sword
[16:47]	Boroondas Gupte: 	gotta go to bed ... not 2AM here :-/
[16:47]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yeah
[16:47]	Armin Weatherwax: 	uh. my flexhair
[16:47]	Boroondas Gupte: 	tc, all
[16:47]	Charlette Proto: 	4186 Morg
[16:47]	Boroondas Gupte waves 	Boroondas Gupte waves
[16:47]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Take care Boroondas, sleep well
[16:48]	Charlette Proto: 	byee Boro
[16:48]	Chantal Harvey: 	byw=e
[16:48]	Armin Weatherwax: 	bye Boroondas
[16:48]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I think we are done for this week. Should we talk more about Viewer 2 next week, or have we discussed it enough?
[16:48]	Armin Weatherwax: 	oh, too late
[16:48]	Charlette Proto: 	I'm a prim whore at 8803
[16:48]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Without my katana I'm only 423
[16:48]	Charlette Proto: 	that is shocling
[16:48]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I see 1052...
[16:48]	Charlette Proto: 	must take my clothes off
[16:48]	Charlette Proto: 	haha
[16:48]	Chantal Harvey: 	where is the count now
[16:48]	Geneko Nemeth: 	(1052 for Morgaine)
[16:49]	Chantal Harvey: 	gosh simple things, i cant find m'
[16:49]	Chantal Harvey: 	ah got it
[16:49]	Armin Weatherwax: 	lets add a ARC eater
[16:49]	Charlette Proto: 	the bad implication of hiding the location bar is that there is no status (G, build script etc)
[16:49]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Sigh, -I- used to have the lowest ARC around.
[16:50]	Chantal Harvey: 	i wonder why i am so low
[16:50]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I don't even know where those status symbols are anymore
[16:50]	Chantal Harvey: 	these boots are kick ass boots
[16:50]	Charlette Proto: 	n attachments Chantal
[16:50]	Chantal Harvey: 	right, time for a prim penis
[16:50]	Charlette Proto: 	my boots have lots of prims
[16:50]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Oh yeah, Chantal, very nice boots
[16:51]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Sculpties count very low despite taking forever to load...
[16:51]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, let's adjourn. Take care everyone, and see you next week!