User Experience Interest Group/Transcripts/2009-10-29

== Topic ==
User Experience Interest Group Discussion for October 29, 2009.
Topic: Open Topic: Third Party Viewer Policy; Misc.
== Summary ==
No summary is yet available for this meeting. Please edit this page to add one.
== Transcript ==
[15:06]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Part of our quorum is missing today owing to the brownbag nonsense
[15:07]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Indeed
[15:08]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I heard it won't even be recorded.
[15:08]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Aye
[15:09]	Charlette Proto: 	wow not quite a crowd that we gad two weeks back
[15:09]	Jacek Antonelli: 	They said earlier that Torley was going to record them.
[15:09]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Well 3rd party viewers may not be welcome, which would end meetings like this
[15:10]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Like UXIG?
[15:10]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Is there a way to reach out to prospective members?
[15:10]	Charlette Proto: 	personally I think this upheaval is stupid - the process of registartion would make the best introduction to LL
[15:10]	Geneko Nemeth: 	... I have this feeling that the brown bag sim just crashed.
[15:11]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Why do you say that, Geneko?
[15:11]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek: well nothing to stop community development continuing of course. It's just that the appeal disappears when you're treated as unwelcome.
[15:11]	Geneko Nemeth: 	McCabe and Dusan Writer just both dropped offline.
[15:12]	Jacek Antonelli: 	McCabe relogged to get on a viewer with voice
[15:12]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Not that I know for sure they are invited~
[15:13]	Charlette Proto: 	I though the appeal would be increased by the formality of the process (from LL side) not that it would make it any easier
[15:14]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Anyway. I haven't seen anything to indicate that third party viewers are unwelcome (except for griefer/infringer viewers, of course), and I've seen statements from several Lindens that they *are* welcome. So until I see evidence otherwise, I'm assuming that LL's intentions are positive.
[15:15]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Even if their plan is somewhat flawed
[15:15]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Hope that good intentions will bring good results.
[15:15]	Morgaine Dinova: 	The whole thing just stinks. They currently have a policy of support for open source viewers. The only way this can go is to REDUCE support, since currently support it total. And they're using the blog and these meetings to justice what must be a choice already made, since they know the tech details of open source.
[15:15]	Morgaine Dinova: 	s/justice/justify/
[15:16]	Armin Weatherwax: 	hi
[15:16]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hi Armin
[15:16]	Jacek Antonelli: 	You're welcome to believe that if you want, Morgaine. But there's no evidence to suggest it's true.
[15:16]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hey Armin
[15:16]	Geneko Nemeth: 	You can't exactly support clients that focuses on improving Griever Experience~ ^_^
[15:16]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek: which part? Lindens don't know and need info?
[15:16]	Geneko Nemeth: 	(GXIG?)
[15:17]	Jacek Antonelli: 	All parts. That their support is currently total (hah!), that this can only reduce support, that they have already made a choice and are now trying to justify it, and that they know the tech details.
[15:18]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Geneko: the right place to address server-side problem is by fixing server side. There is absolutely nothing that client control can achieve there.
[15:18]	Jacek Antonelli: 	There are certainly individual Lindens woh are well aware of the technical issues. Those Lindens are not the ones making the decision.
[15:18]	Charlette Proto: 	frankly the alt viewers (emerald) sidelined many RC users and JIRA turned into flamewars instead of bug triage
[15:19]	Geneko Nemeth: 	That's like saying the right way to address problematic bar partrons is to make the bar into fluffy plushie heaven instead of denying access...
[15:19]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek: there is no control over viewers currently, since anyone can set a channel name. So yet, 3rd party viewers are supported as much as LL viewers. It's total support.
[15:19]	Morgaine Dinova: 	So yes*
[15:19]	Charlette Proto: 	I really don't give a toss for devs with reputation like those behind emerald, let alone keyloggers of obfuscated code - open source - my ass
[15:20]	Geneko Nemeth: 	However, with bar bouncers you can check their ID. But that doesn't work on the web, or with Second Life where anyone can claim to be anybody.
[15:20]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Sorry, I thought you meant something else by "support". Linden Lab does not provide much real support for third-party viewers. They just tend not to interfere with them.
[15:21]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yep, identical to their own viewer. So the only way for this to go is to reduce support.
[15:21]	Jacek Antonelli: 	What you mean is access
[15:21]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Yep
[15:22]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I agree that access for third party viewers can't be made greater. But that doesn't mean this policy is going to reduce access.
[15:22]	Charlette Proto: 	so shall we take veryfication mechanism as a topic today hehe
[15:22]	Charlette Proto: 	maybe possible workarounds
[15:22]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Although from what I see, that's exactly what this policy is meaning to do, although not for all third-party viewers.
[15:23]	Morgaine Dinova: 	No, let's not. Otherwise this will just turn into another pointless bun fight like we already had on the blog.
[15:23]	Charlette Proto: 	bun fight? I prefer toast
[15:23]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Rolls are better!
[15:23]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Viewers that enable you to violate the terms of service are already against the terms of service. This policy doesn't change that.
[15:24]	Geneko Nemeth: 	(But not cinnamon rolls.)
[15:24]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Exactly. So there was no need for a change.
[15:24]	Charlette Proto: 	as i said approval process can only bring devs closer to LL and that will be a positive
[15:24]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Although saying "this policy" is a bit silly, because there is no policy yet.
[15:24]	Armin Weatherwax: 	yeah. the first bag meeting already over?
[15:24]	Jacek Antonelli: 	no policy change, I mean.
[15:24]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Going on right now, Armin
[15:24]	Armin Weatherwax: 	then its pointless to guess what is discussed there
[15:25]	Charlette Proto: 	Jacek; policy 'is' out, like adult stuff this is already decided no matter what people blogg about it
[15:25]	Morgaine Dinova: 	If there was no policy before and no restrictions on viewers, adding a policy can't have a benefit effect on open source.
[15:25]	Geneko Nemeth: 	There is nothing to suggest that is true apart from LL's track record.
[15:26]	Armin Weatherwax: 	maybe its something symbolic }:)
[15:26]	Jacek Antonelli: 	They have not made a single policy change yet. They have only talked about a possible one. And there are no details about it.
[15:26]	Jacek Antonelli: 	So there's no basis to say "this policy change will reduce access for third party viewers".
[15:26]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Well, that depends. Say if the policy is "if you ask nicely we'll put $feature into our servers"?
[15:27]	Geneko Nemeth: 	There you go, a policy that is utility-increasing.
[15:27]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehe
[15:27]	Armin Weatherwax: 	or its "if you ask nicely we'll put $feature into SG
[15:27]	Armin Weatherwax: 	or something else
[15:27]	Charlette Proto: 	if I was cutting my own viewer code I'd ba happy that Ll would have to approve it hoping they would recognise my effort
[15:27]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Already does. Soft is going to sign off two machinima-related patches.
[15:28]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek: imagine yourself working for such a company. Do you make a policy on a technical matter like the benefit of open source to your company by going to your forums and asking customers? Or do you ask your own techies? It's a forgone conclusion that they already know. Asking the customers and either ignoring or overriding your own techies makes zero sense.
[15:28]	Charlette Proto: 	good news geneko
[15:28]	Armin Weatherwax: 	and the ogp texture bug is going to be solved after - 2months
[15:29]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Morgaine: I would try to gather feedback from the people that this decision will affect. Which is what they are doing. Maybe they're not going to bother listening to the feedback, but there's no basis to say for certain that they won't.
[15:30]	Jacek Antonelli: 	So if you want to assume the worst about LL, go ahead. But don't pretend there is a basis in fact for your assumptions.
[15:30]	Charlette Proto: 	anyway I'm happy LL is doing something about it - really sick of people talking about corrupted cache and textures not loading instead of actually 'being' in a virtual world
[15:31]	Armin Weatherwax: 	well, looking on SG they became resposive to community contribs - that at least is a good sign
[15:31]	Morgaine Dinova: 	You're right, there is no basis in fact. I was only basing it on commonsense, because ignoring or overriding your own techies is a fatal mistake. Commonsense is an assumption on my part.
[15:31]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yes, Snowglobe is a good direction.
[15:32]	Jacek Antonelli: 	McCabe is telling me that the Lindens are "talking sense", and that the drama is baseless. Which is not surprising to me.
[15:33]	Armin Weatherwax: 	Dun dun DUUUUUN! O_o
[15:33]	Armin Weatherwax: 	scnr
[15:33]	Morgaine Dinova: 	That's what I said in my blog post. The confrontation was utterly unnecessary.
[15:34]	Charlette Proto: 	I agree Jacek - formal process can only bridge people to LL so long that they aren't doing a Neil thing themselves
[15:34]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Morgaine: No offense intended, but you're part of the drama/confrontation.
[15:34]	Jacek Antonelli: 	With your assumption that they are going to limit third party viewer access, etc.
[15:35]	Charlette Proto: 	Morgaine is a utopian OS drama queen (joke)
[15:35]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Jacek: No offense intended, but you're lacking in smarts
[15:35]	Jacek Antonelli: 	heh
[15:35]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I think it's really a matter of trust of Linden Lab.
[15:36]	Charlette Proto: 	frankly if LL look over the alt viewers' code they may find some good devs and give them jobs in LL
[15:36]	Jacek Antonelli: 	That would be an interesting move, Charlette
[15:36]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Although I'm skeptical that the devs would be even half as productive working within LL as they are working outside it.
[15:37]	Charlette Proto: 	is not lacking anything; Char has the looks and that is plenty
[15:37]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Are you a US citizen?
[15:37]	Charlette Proto: 	this is what I feel about it Jacek - LL will be forced to read everyones' code
[15:37]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I'm not sure avatar attractiveness is part of their hiring process...
[15:38]	Charlette Proto: 	the good guys/galls will surely get noticed rather than banned 4 ever
[15:38]	Charlette Proto: 	dudes like LordGregGreg may be put on notice, but who cares about him
[15:39]	Charlette Proto: 	did I hear someone say LL hire on the basis of tits, legs, ass and good hair
[15:39]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hahaha. Maybe in RL ;)
[15:40]	Charlette Proto: 	musn't be the avie appearance - most look like trash or off the shelf mosters
[15:41]	Armin Weatherwax remembers having a hobo trashcan avatar	Armin Weatherwax remembers having a hobo trashcan avatar
[15:41]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I don't think most of the Lindens have any reason to dress up their Linden avatars nicely. It's not like they go around socializing with them (except ones like Torley)
[15:41]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hey Garn! Woo, free hugs!
[15:41]	Garn Conover see's purple on his minimap! 	Garn Conover see's purple on his minimap!
[15:41]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Hi Garn. OMG the av :P
[15:41]	Garn Conover: 	Mrewp Mrewp! ^_^
[15:41]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Mweh Mweh! :O
[15:42]	Garn Conover: 	this is my mentoring av lol
[15:42]	Charlette Proto: 	I'm thinking of identity Jacek, not so much sex appeal
[15:43]	Charlette Proto: 	I'd hate to come to work every day just to look like a noob or something anyone can buy at grendels
[15:43]	Jacek Antonelli: 	heh
[15:43]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Charlette: Emerald is in the good books, and hence so is LGG
[15:44]	Garn Conover: 	this guy was only special release
[15:44]	Charlette Proto: 	LGG is a two-faced dude in the words of his own friends Morgaine
[15:44]	Jacek Antonelli: 	But as I said, most Lindens don't go around in their Linden accounts much. If they use SL much, they use alts so they won't get harrassed or bombarded with questions everywhere they go.
[15:45]	Jacek Antonelli: 	They probably only log on with their Linden account when they have some official inworld business
[15:45]	Charlette Proto: 	I can back that claim too, he lied to me too
[15:45]	Charlette Proto: 	true Jacek
[15:46]	Charlette Proto: 	but wouldn't you want to relate to your official av since this is how the 'world' sees the company your work for
[15:46]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Charlette: there's at least 4 of them with dubious backgrounds it seems. But *currently* they're in the clear. Don't trust them with a blank cheque though.
[15:46]	Charlette Proto: 	then some lindens prolly think this is just a job
[15:46]	Armin Weatherwax: 	do we have a quicksave appearence button in imprudence?
[15:47]	Charlette Proto: 	I wouldn't trust LGG with a quarter - the dude is full of shit
[15:47]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Quicksave? Not that I know of.
[15:47]	Jacek Antonelli: 	What does quicksave do?
[15:48]	Armin Weatherwax: 	Charlette, I think the best way to discuss persons is when they are present
[15:48]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Same as Edit Appearances -> Save Outfit?
[15:48]	Armin Weatherwax: 	Quicksave: yeah
[15:49]	Armin Weatherwax: 	like an outfit snpshot, for trying a new AV
[15:49]	Armin Weatherwax: 	and turning back
[15:49]	Charlette Proto: 	ah so shall I TP LGG or else keep it to myself so you find out on your own skin
[15:50]	Charlette Proto: 	just look at https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/ARVD-7 for the flames LGG and his friends get into
[15:50]	Charlette Proto: 	very good patch - just a shame it was turned down because of people like him
[15:52]	Armin Weatherwax: 	the problem with mailing lists and forums is that they both tend to make flamewars easy- even really nice people can get monsters there
[15:53]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I would like to see a medium that makes flaming hard.
[15:53]	Charlette Proto: 	anyway my point is that 'good' code will have a chance to get noticed in the approval process
[15:53]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Geneko: Like underwater discussions?
[15:53]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe
[15:53]	Armin Weatherwax: 	yeah, underwater is good
[15:54]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I wonder if there are much drama happening in the Maldive government, then.
[15:55]	Charlette Proto: 	the great LL firewall
[15:57]	Charlette Proto: 	this is all quite funny, I've coped a lot of shi* over the need for IP protection in Second Life™ and now I'm getting a feeling why it was so
[15:57]	Morgaine Dinova: 	lol
[15:58]	Charlette Proto: 	economy can't work if one can copy the currency and culture can't work if one can copy identity
[15:59]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Before copyright, copying was regarded as the sincerest way of flattering.
[16:00]	Charlette Proto: 	especially in China
[16:00]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe
[16:00]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Hey, our mountain fortress industry is the best in the world.
[16:00]	Morgaine Dinova: 	SL was founded on a design in which copyrighted assets are sent by the server to the client, BY DESIGN, not by mistake or by exploit. That's the fundamental data model of SL. Any business in SL that doesn't understand that fundamental point is based on a delusion, and the tears follow.
[16:01]	Charlette Proto: 	it is not an issue of delusion Morg but the claims by LL that the economy is viable
[16:01]	Charlette Proto: 	anyway I find copies of myself offensive
[16:02]	Morgaine Dinova: 	The economy *IS* viable. It's only not viable for business who don't understand, or don't wish to understand, the data model.
[16:02]	Charlette Proto: 	and will quit Second Life™ before I give up on the right to unique identity
[16:02]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Well, I'll be getting mah free pizza.
[16:03]	Charlette Proto: 	free pizza?
[16:03]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Since I'm not getting any insights into or out of this.
[16:03]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Enjoy, Gen
[16:03]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Ubuntu release party today at University of Ottawa.
[16:03]	Morgaine Dinova: 	It applies just as much to your visuals, Charlette. They're part of the data model. The only part of your identity that isn't subject to it is your name.
[16:03]	Geneko Nemeth: 	p://forum.uouug.co.cc/download/file.php?id=9
[16:03]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yay, free pizza and free operating system!
[16:03]	Geneko Nemeth: 	http://forum.uouug.co.cc/download/file.php?id=9
[16:03]	Charlette Proto: 	nice Gen enjoy it
[16:03]	Morgaine Dinova: 	TC Gen
[16:04]	Jacek Antonelli: 	It's after 4, so I think we'll wrap it up here. Any last comments?
[16:04]	Charlette Proto: 	the assumption of any value in creativity in Second Life™ surely should not be compromised freely just because the viewer was opened up to OS
[16:05]	Armin Weatherwax: 	there is no spoon
[16:05]	Geneko Nemeth: 	There never has.
[16:05]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Nah, Jacek. Hopefull all this will be back to business a usual soon
[16:05]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I hope so
[16:05]	Charlette Proto: 	and since the whole issue tends to fall of the illusion that 'information want to be free' I see no point in supporting unvetted viewer development
[16:06]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Charlette: the BB just confirmed it's unvetted
[16:07]	Charlette Proto: 	information has no volition - the author has the right to decide if they want to share it or just let people experience it in the form they choose
[16:07]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Alright, I'm gonna head out. Thanks for coming everyone. Take care, and see you next week!