AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2008-05-27

* [9:29] Gareth Ellison: so, bit early are we?
* [9:30] Gareth Ellison: to think i bothered to TP here from my grid ;)
* [9:32] Gareth Ellison: sielnce......
* [9:32] Gareth Ellison: tyops
* [9:32] Coughran Mayo: /ao off
* [9:35] Periapse Linden: Hello, everyone
* [9:35] Rex Cronon: hi everybody
* [9:35] Rex Cronon: hi periapse
* [9:35] Quinn Houston: hello :)
* [9:35] Gareth Ellison: ACHTUNG! everybody
* [9:35] Gareth Ellison: i love the nazi-ish greeting
* [9:37] Gareth Ellison: so... we going to do a meeting here today or just stand round exchanging greetings?
* [9:37] Teravus Ousley: impatient? :D
* [9:37] Rex Cronon: u don't have any other greeting gareth, that migh stirr some memories in people
* [9:37] Saijanai Kuhn: as I said, its pretty open today. Zha is on vacation.
* [9:37] Gareth Ellison: rex - i have others, but none as attention-grabbing
* [9:38] Saijanai Kuhn: I've got a few little things to bring up. Alissa Sabre mentioned MPEG-21 which is an MPEG group for any kind of networking/media stuff.
* [9:38] LaPiscean Liberty: well i thought this was groupies and not AWg so most are going to be newbies to keep abreast of whats happinf
* [9:38] Gareth Ellison: perhaps "c'thulhu r'yleh ftaghn" is a better greeting.... and on with the serious talk
* [9:38] LaPiscean Liberty: i would like to haer the older members speak
* [9:39] Gareth Ellison: good point - shall we go over what's happened so far for newbies and low attenders?
* [9:39] Saijanai Kuhn: 
* [9:39] Gareth Ellison: falls into the latter
* [9:39] Saijanai Kuhn: That's where the MPEG is as far as digital rights, intellectual property etc
* [9:39] Quinn Houston: I am new to the group and I don't fully understand whats is all about, but no worries, when I figure it out, I'll be talking :)
* [9:39] Gareth Ellison: saijanai - feel like doing some speaking to the newbies or should we just do business as usual?
* [9:40] Gareth Ellison: there are a scary number of newbies today
* [9:40] Saijanai Kuhn: 
* [9:40] Saijanai Kuhn: is the main page of this group
* [9:40] Lillie Yifu: I thought Zero had trademarked the phrase "scary numbers"
* [9:40] Gareth Ellison: lol
* [9:40] LaPiscean Liberty: i knoiw you guys are really busy at developing thing and a wasted meeting on accomplishing nothing may be better spent working
* [9:40] Gareth Ellison: LL did try to trademark "Second" apparently
* [9:40] LaPiscean Liberty: lol
* [9:41] Gareth Ellison: and "grid" they did trademark successfully then abandoned
* [9:41] Saijanai Kuhn: We're the in-world discussion group for the Architecture Workign Group which was founded by Linden Lab and IBM last year to design interoperability between Second Life and Second Life compatible worlds
* [9:41] LaPiscean Liberty: isnt grid like air
* [9:41] Gareth Ellison: i think it may be worth pointing out that for the most part there's no real work done outside of this group
* [9:42] Gareth Ellison: there's RL meetings rarely - but mainly it's discussion here and on the wiki or SLDev
* [9:42] Saijanai Kuhn: so, we're comprised of LL employees, IBM employees, OpenSim and libsecondlife (now called something else I think) and volunteers from the Second LIfe community, most of whom are geeks
* [9:42] Gareth Ellison: libsl renamed? do tell later.....
* [9:43] Saijanai Kuhn: didn't you get the memo? Their lawyer recommended it after teh trademark thing popped up
* [9:43] BigMike Bukowski: sounds.. stimulating.. :)
* [9:43] ~Brandy Snifter~: whispers: Cheers!
* [9:43] Gareth Ellison: i didn't, but on with the newbie talk
* [9:43] Saijanai Kuhn: 
* [9:43] Dahlia Trimble: libopenmv
* [9:44] Saijanai Kuhn: so, various people have been working on various things. The Lindens have been working on devising an OpenSim compatible login procedure and on an RFC-esque Protocol Document Formerly Known As SLGOGP
* [9:45] Saijanai Kuhn: RFCPDFKASLGOGP for short
* [9:45] Al Sonic: XD
* [9:45] Saijanai Kuhn: OGP actually
* [9:45] Teravus Ousley: heh, unintended consequences of lawyering.
* [9:45] Saijanai Kuhn: Open Grid Protocol
* [9:45] LaPiscean Liberty: is the G for grid
* [9:45] Gareth Ellison: Second Life Access Guidelines For External Server Types
* [9:45] LaPiscean Liberty: Open Grid Protocal
* [9:45] Gareth Ellison: that proposal was never taken seriously
* [9:45] Saijanai Kuhn: 
* [9:45] Quinn Houston: Tho I don't have much to contribute yet, I would like to stay a pay attention as it seems, SL/vitural worlds is the new First Life world :) I'll pick it up as you go :)
* [9:46] Saijanai Kuhn: So, the LIndens are trying to create a login procedure that will work across multiple virtual worlds at the same time
* [9:47] Gareth Ellison: <pseudo-spam> while i already have one running in production today </pseudo-spam>
* [9:47] Saijanai Kuhn: They're also trying to keep landwoners and content creators happy by preserving the minimal intellectual property protections that the SL grid has
* [9:47] Gareth Ellison: trusted/untrusted sims to preserve the integrity of the permissions system being how they plan to keep content creators happy
* [9:47] Saijanai Kuhn: they're also trying to handle the scary numbers for virtual worlds predicted by the computer industry: 1 billion+ avatars, 50=100 millin concurrent users on 50 million simulators
* [9:48] Latha Serevi: Gee, maybe we'll have to figure out how to get more than 50 avatars at a time together, someday.
* [9:49] Teravus Ousley: wonders if Gareth will write something up and release some documentation.
* [9:49] LaPiscean Liberty: quad sim development
* [9:49] LaPiscean Liberty: 200 ppl
* [9:49] Gareth Ellison: teravus - if you want it, sure
* [9:49] Saijanai Kuhn: so for the last year or so, when he wasn't trying to get the grid redesigned to handle merely 50,000+ users, Zero has been working on a redesign that can handle the "scary numbers"
* [9:49] Gareth Ellison: i can drop something on the wiki later
* [9:49] Teravus Ousley: knows nothing of this inter-grid protocol that Garath has developed
* [9:49] Teravus Ousley: cool.
* [9:49] BigMike Bukowski: Very Cool.
* [9:50] Lillie Yifu: Since periapse is here maybe we could get a view on the future of mono and scripting in a more open environment. What is going to be the standard fo scripting in an open vr owrld?
* [9:50] Rex Cronon: the goal is to have sims that can handle even 1000 concurrent users
* [9:50] Saijanai Kuhn: Of course, this is an LL-oriented group. OpenSim is doing its own thing internally, but they have pledged to be compatible with whatever LL comes up with
* [9:50] Gareth Ellison: until the work is finished all parties are doing their own thing
* [9:50] Gareth Ellison: only natural
* [9:51] Saijanai Kuhn: friends. We have a new member: Prokofy Neva
* [9:51] Teravus Ousley: fails to spot Prok
* [9:51] Coughran Mayo: notes silence
* [9:52] Gareth Ellison: prok's not in group chat
* [9:52] Gareth Ellison: or here
* [9:52] Rex Cronon: welcome prokofy
* [9:52] Prokofy Neva: Hi
* [9:52] Rex Cronon: hi
* [9:52] Periapse Linden: Hey, all. I can certainly talk Mono and SL if people are interested
* [9:52] Dahlia Trimble: hi
* [9:52] LaPiscean Liberty: it seems to me in the comming time that the standalone sim and opensim.exe or powered by ubuntu would be a part of the OS and boot up to your sim then connect to any public grid like a mobile home
* [9:53] Gareth Ellison: anyone here familiar with the construct in the matrix?
* [9:53] Latha Serevi: I'm a little unclear on the modes of interoperability being suggested between open grids. Being in one grid with assets on another grid, or "guest Ruth", or "IM bridge", or...
* [9:53] BigMike Bukowski: I am Gareth.
* [9:53] BigMike Bukowski: Just watched the rifftrax of the first movie last night ;)
* [9:53] Latha Serevi: ...or "database compatibility", or...
* [9:53] Gareth Ellison: bigmike - then you'll know how the idea looks quite good for a metaverse homepage
* [9:54] Teravus Ousley: initially.. it'll likely be like the screen shot to my left.
* [9:54] BigMike Bukowski: Oh yes it does.
* [9:54] LaPiscean Liberty: wel it would seem like you cary Osim with you and you dock to the backbone of givin publuic grid
* [9:54] LaPiscean Liberty: like we have 1 service and you supply 3
* [9:54] Gareth Ellison: as for interop between worlds - for newbies, agent/region domain split
* [9:54] Saijanai Kuhn: well, the architecture is a bit different than today's. LL has been testing it for the past few weeks
* [9:54] Gareth Ellison: that's the idea - agent domain is for auth'ing users and handles inventory etc
* [9:55] Gareth Ellison: region domain is where regions/simulators live
* [9:55] Teravus Ousley: I'm not sure it'll be that open that anyone can just dock a region. I think there's likely going to be some requirements.. in the form of contracts and trust
* [9:55] Saijanai Kuhn: you can see the result of the first test on that board. 9 ruthed avatars logged in through the new system
* [9:55] Gareth Ellison: anyone should be able to TP to any arbitary remote region - but you need trust to acces s L$ of inventory
* [9:55] Latha Serevi: I'd also be interested in a pointer to a primer on the basic SL architecture (sim on one server, assets on another, etc)
* [9:56] LaPiscean Liberty: sort of like a site certificate
* [9:56] Gareth Ellison: wiki people
* [9:56] Saijanai Kuhn: right. The thinking right now (subject to change, sepecially if they can't figure out how to do it) is that open permissions stuff will be transportable to any world/grid/whatever
* [9:57] Saijanai Kuhn: The more difficult issue will be protecting stuff that is NOT open permissions
* [9:57] Latha Serevi: Saij - does "transportable" mean "database xfer" or "i'll use your asset server" or...?
* [9:57] Saijanai Kuhn: well, for open permissions stuff it won't matter
* [9:58] Gareth Ellison: "i'll use your asset server"
* [9:58] LaPiscean Liberty: I believe that services lets say will be provided by the public grid
* [9:58] Saijanai Kuhn: for stuff that is more controlled, there will be certification of trust and then things get complicated
* [9:58] Gareth Ellison: and then possibly "i'll cache it all on my cache"
* [9:58] LaPiscean Liberty: at that point they control assets for givin grid
* [9:58] LaPiscean Liberty: i guess
* [9:59] Saijanai Kuhn: the change that is being worked on requires you to understand how the grid works right now
* [9:59] Saijanai Kuhn: Right now, avatars talk to the sims directly and requiest all assets through the sim they are sitting on
* [9:59] Gareth Ellison: right now i don't think we could explain very quickly the wonderful complexity of the current grid
* [9:59] Gareth Ellison: other than very simply:
* [9:59] Gareth Ellison: we have central services with DB
* [9:59] LaPiscean Liberty: region control on inventory could make secure the region like say ppl could only have what was givin them in that sim or parcel to use so no cheating on test all cars have same engine in race etc
* [9:59] Gareth Ellison: we have sims
* [9:59] Saijanai Kuhn: obviously, if that sim is "Joe's Garage" and you don't necessarily trust him with your L$100,000 item, you don't want his asset server to be able to see it
* [9:59] Gareth Ellison: viewers talk to sims mainly
* [10:00] Latha Serevi: (I'd still like a pointer to a tutorial on the basics of the current grid. Gareth, points for trying to create one on-the-fly)
* [10:00] Saijanai Kuhn: so... the new idea is that avatars live in an "Agent Domain" server, and it is the agent domain that talks to the sim and talks to the asset server and talks to the avie
* [10:00] Gareth Ellison: right now stuff is slowly moving off sim-as-frontend towards sim as frontend but phasing out a lot of stuff so viewer talks to backend
* [10:00] Saijanai Kuhn: and the agent domain negotiates with the asset server about what stuff is allowed to rez on Joe's Garage Sim
* [10:01] Dahlia Trimble: really would like to hear Periapse talk about mono and interoperability before the meeting ends
* [10:01] LaPiscean Liberty: complicated to say the least
* [10:01] Gareth Ellison: ok - mono time
* [10:01] Al Sonic: Sometimes I get the impression that restricted-rights items would also have to be tagged with which server groups the original creator trusts to protect said items.
* [10:01] Saijanai Kuhn: if Joe's Garage Sim is part of the Wild, WIld West, important assets just won't rez because the asset server wont' send them
* [10:01] BigMike Bukowski: So let me make sure I have it right with the current system. The viewer talks to sim, the sim talks to the asset server -- and ok :) I can wait.
* [10:01] Gareth Ellison: let's here it for mono
* [10:01] Gareth Ellison: periapse - give us the juice
* [10:02] Saijanai Kuhn: so conent creators will not have to worry (we hope) because Joe's Garage won't get a copy of the no copy assets because the Agent Domain won't give them a pass
* [10:02] Gareth Ellison: oy! mono!
* [10:02] Periapse Linden: Hey, I'm afraid I have to go to a 10am meeting. But I think we should ask Zha to set this up as a full agenda item for one week
* [10:02] Periapse Linden: I will try to get Babbage Linden to attend
* [10:02] Al Sonic: Oh. Kay then...
* [10:02] Gareth Ellison: ok then - oy! AWG 101
* [10:03] Periapse Linden: That way you'll get it straight from the source
* [10:03] Prokofy Neva: Al, how could a creator of an object possibly know all the putative server groups in the future that it might want to trust? It would be better to have a rights protection regime that is honoured universally.
* [10:03] Saijanai Kuhn: now, if IBM, which has a special agreement with LL, hosts a sub-grid, then they get access to anything they want because they've got legal agreements that force them to honor LL's agreements
* [10:03] Rex Cronon: periapse, does have office hours on the preview/beta grid
* [10:03] Gareth Ellison: prok - a popup warning or similar
* [10:03] Al Sonic: Prokofy - I was imagining that trust groups would invite new servers to their groups.
* [10:03] Gareth Ellison: "you are entering a region not owned by LL"
* [10:03] Gareth Ellison: then by default don't trust
* [10:04] Periapse Linden: but the one sentence version is that the Mono runtime has had a successful beta and we are going to check in the viewer changes this week, the server changes in a couple of weeks, and by the end of June the entire grid should be Mono enabled.
* [10:04] Saijanai Kuhn: it gets more complicated if there's not full business partnerships though, which is where the idea of a network of trusted sims/grids comes in
* [10:04] Saijanai Kuhn: Periapse, did Vektor figure out what was wrong with my sign?
* [10:04] Dahlia Trimble: so does IBM get access to non-full-perm scripts too?
* [10:04] Gareth Ellison: i think the question of trust is fairly simple actually - don't trust by default and leave the rest up to social factors
* [10:04] Periapse Linden: For more info you can check the wiki. "Mono" and "Mono Beta" articles tell you the details, including office hour times.
* [10:04] Periapse Linden: Sai -- i haven't checked with Vek this am.
* [10:05] Periapse Linden: Cheers, all! See you next week.
* [10:05] Dahlia Trimble: bye :)
* [10:05] Rex Cronon: bye periapse
* [10:05] Saijanai Kuhn: KK, its a simplke link mesage and link permissions issue. Probably just some wierd lag thing
* [10:05] Teravus Ousley: take care
* [10:05] LaPiscean Liberty: Byr Peri
* [10:05] Saijanai Kuhn: so anyway I've tried to tell you guys the background and where LL is right now
* [10:05] BigMike Bukowski: It's helped alot.
* [10:05] BigMike Bukowski: Cleared up some of the holes in my knowlege :)
* [10:05] LaPiscean Liberty: and very well to and very though provoking
* [10:06] LaPiscean Liberty: Thank you gor having us
* [10:06] Gareth Ellison: perhaps we also need a 1-page wiki article too?
* [10:06] Prokofy Neva: Gareth, are you saying the pop-up says "Don't enter these servers if you don't want Shakedown Street on your inventory?" It seems backwards to run it all based on server access, instead of building a permissions regime like we have now in SL that holds better -- and please, don't start telling me about how "if the viewer can see it, anyone can copy it" -- we get all that.
* [10:06] Saijanai Kuhn: They've managed to create a login that only asks for name and password and all the junk that used to be part of login is delayed a step
* [10:06] BigMike Bukowski: Maybe now i would sit there like a stump at zero's Office hours.
* [10:06] BigMike Bukowski: *will not sit there.
* [10:06] Gareth Ellison: prok - i'm saying if you enter a server, it will not get access to your inventory unless you say ok
* [10:07] Prokofy Neva: Dahlia, that very issue of whether IBM gets scripts was discussed in the SL Dev group and there were some troubling concerns there, you could look at the back issues this month.
* [10:07] Saijanai Kuhn: Prokofy I think many details are still in the "and then a miracle happens" stage
* [10:07] Gareth Ellison: the popup says "do you want this region owned by <name> to access your inventory/L$/etc"
* [10:07] Gareth Ellison: and if you answer no - it won't get access
* [10:07] Saijanai Kuhn: I know the GOAL is to make everything as "secure" as it is with LL's own grid, which isn't very.
* [10:07] Dahlia Trimble: isnt in the sl dev group
* [10:07] Hamilton Linden: Keep the vendors in mind for permissions as well. Just because you give a Region access to no-copy items bought from a vendor, may not mean the vendor is ok with it
* [10:07] Latha Serevi: Gareth, that's OK for personal (but not content creator) control. The business about trust groups sounds more plausible to me.
* [10:07] Prokofy Neva: I understand Gareth, and that sounds pretty breakable, and I wonder why it can't be worked from the other end, that I can go anywhere as an avatar, but my inventory has rights protection hardwired into it that *it* can't go
* [10:07] Rex Cronon: sai, there are no "miracles" in CS
* [10:08] Gareth Ellison: prok - you mean if the content creator says no?
* [10:08] Gareth Ellison: that's fairly simple too
* [10:08] Saijanai Kuhn: yeah, but until you figure out how to do it in the hardware, its still something on a blackboard
* [10:08] Gareth Ellison: you as a creator say "allow all grids" or "limit to this grid"
* [10:08] Saijanai Kuhn: There's a proposal for a "this grid only" permissions flag
* [10:08] Latha Serevi: It does sound like I'll have to partition my inventory, so half my clothes don't fall off when I teleporty.
* [10:08] Prokofy Neva: Yes, if the permissions such as we have now are set up and honoured -- perhaps you have to build that into the license for the software use
* [10:08] Saijanai Kuhn: don't know where they are in discussions about that
* [10:08] Gareth Ellison: prok - that is the idea
* [10:09] Saijanai Kuhn: Latha, clothing is another issue. Same with bling
* [10:09] Gareth Ellison: asset server will not send an asset to an unauthorised client
* [10:09] Teravus Ousley: Well, off to work for me.
* [10:09] Saijanai Kuhn: and the clinet gets authorized only because the trusted Agent Domain says its in an authorized sim.
* [10:09] LaPiscean Liberty: wounddnt that go far any attchment
* [10:09] Teravus Ousley: Take care.
* [10:09] Rex Cronon: bye teravus
* [10:10] Gareth Ellison: the "this grid only" flag could make sense right now actually
* [10:10] Latha Serevi: ...I'm till seeking a URL to a good basic description of grid server architecture...
* [10:10] Saijanai Kuhn: They've tried to work out the most obviosu issues already. There are "edge conditions" that are still giving them headaches though
* [10:10] Gareth Ellison: there's been some tricky issues where someone gives full perms to their object and it's been exported to another grid - but it's questionable whether that's actually legit
* [10:11] Gareth Ellison: i know i've been looking at a copybot-like mechanism hosted on my own server which would IM creators and ask "do you give permission for this export?"
* [10:11] Saijanai Kuhn: Latha, there's a couple of diagrams available on the groupies page. One is an open sim login diagram (at the top level its just like LL's) and there's one that LL did about service issues that explains the grid from a "satellite's eye view" --how I label it
* [10:11] LaPiscean Liberty: i think in the long run they would want to say yes
* [10:11] LaPiscean Liberty: but in the short view i think no
* [10:11] Gareth Ellison: wonders if any opensim guys here remember the short-lived ExportBot
* [10:12] LaPiscean Liberty: that way because they get sales from both grids
* [10:12] LaPiscean Liberty: but having dsaid thast the power center would be hel to this grid
* [10:12] Saijanai Kuhn: BTW, if anyone wants to correct what I've said, please feel free. I'm doing this because Zha is on vacation
* [10:12] LaPiscean Liberty: and other grids would suffer from lack of development
* [10:12] Gareth Ellison: other grids will always lag behind with content at first
* [10:13] Gareth Ellison: simple facts are that SL has been around longer obviously
* [10:13] LaPiscean Liberty: True and entilted to reap from that foundationship
* [10:13] Saijanai Kuhn: Gareth, right. I assume that lots of freebie stuff will appear all over but the high-end stuff will either be stolen or slowly brought in on commission
* [10:13] Saijanai Kuhn: hoefully the latter :-/
* [10:13] LaPiscean Liberty: so keeping inventory purchsed in sl in sl is a strong way to hold onto that lead
* [10:14] Saijanai Kuhn: well, there's that, but more importantly, LL wants to keep content creators happy.
* [10:14] Saijanai Kuhn: IF they let no-copy stuff appear automaticaly on Joe's Garage sims, they will lose whatever trust they have, and their whole business model falls apart
* [10:15] LaPiscean Liberty: as the prices fall on grid space comes down the land value stays the same here because of this econimy
* [10:15] Saijanai Kuhn: the other thing I should mention is that trust will (they hope) have a visual signal: if you can walk between two grids, its because they trust each other
* [10:16] BigMike Bukowski: Couldn't the encrypt the data so it can't be read by Joe's Sim? And make it purge it from that sim's asset server? Or am I comepletly wrong?
* [10:16] BigMike Bukowski: Well by read i mean Stolen.
* [10:16] LaPiscean Liberty: this appears to be the hub of education and development in this whole area of 3D web
* [10:16] Saijanai Kuhn: The client is opensource. They could steal the decryption algorithm from the client
* [10:16] Latha Serevi: Sai - that "satellite's view" page was helpful, thanks. ( ), thanks.
* [10:16] Gareth Ellison: if the data ends up anywhere outside your server, it will be copied
* [10:16] BigMike Bukowski: right *facepalm*
* [10:17] Gareth Ellison: if you don't want joe to have your content, do not send it to joe
* [10:17] Gareth Ellison: in any format
* [10:17] Saijanai Kuhn: there's the possibility of someone setting up a trusted digital watermark/signature/registration thing for textures. When you upload it to LL, it first gets watermarked by the trusted 3rd party. But LL isn't going to do that, I'm sure. You'd need to get a real 3rd party company interested
* [10:18] Prokofy Neva: Saijanai, there will be a million Joes Garages, like there already are, and they don't care about business models, because their time online is paid for by mom or their big IT corporation or their university.
* [10:18] Saijanai Kuhn: right. But they won't be trusted by the Agent Domain, so they won't get the no-copy assets from teh asset server
* [10:18] Saijanai Kuhn: so those won't rez in Joe's Garage
* [10:19] BigMike Bukowski: I'm not sure how hard it would be but couldn't you code to take a sports term. "Home" and "Away" outfits. "Trusted" and "untrusted" And the client changes your clothing depending on which it is?
* [10:19] Saijanai Kuhn: remember, its the agent domain that is doing all the initial talking.
* [10:19] LaPiscean Liberty: yes uit seems that the technology is ther is a matter of technique and process
* [10:19] Saijanai Kuhn: BigMkie that's one of th things that people talk about
* [10:19] Gareth Ellison: watermarks are simple
* [10:19] Saijanai Kuhn: Noe the Ruth on everyone.
* [10:19] Rex Cronon: i think that any grids that want to have access to ll assest storage might have to enter into an legal agreement with LL
* [10:19] BigMike Bukowski: needs to read more
* [10:19] Gareth Ellison: anything that has numbers which can be adjusted slightly can have watermarks put on it
* [10:20] Al Sonic: is getting tempted to build a big silly shack prominently labeled JOE'S GARAGE!!1
* [10:20] Saijanai Kuhn: There's also the issue of bling scripts. Even if someone doesnt' mind if the texture of some simple bling is copied, they might want the scripts that control it to stay private
* [10:20] Gareth Ellison: get a key, use that key to iterate through everything and put anything close to key[i
* [10:20] Gareth Ellison: then you ensure key[i
* [10:20] Gareth Ellison: if that's a word
* [10:20] Gareth Ellison: and i'm probably confusing the hell out of everyone
* [10:21] Gareth Ellison: anyway, the viewer checks the watermarks
* [10:21] Gareth Ellison: and if it finds one where it shouldn't be, it reports it
* [10:21] LaPiscean Liberty: ahhh
* [10:21] Rex Cronon: gareth, u can't put watermarks on sculpties
* [10:21] Gareth Ellison: all you need is one report - so hacked viewers don't matter
* [10:21] Gareth Ellison: Rex - you can
* [10:21] Dahlia Trimble: Rex, you can
* [10:21] Gareth Ellison: just offset by 0.001
* [10:21] Saijanai Kuhn: There's also just a signature thing. There are ways of scanning pictures and creating a special key that pretty much uniquely identifies that picture without modding the picture in any way. So if someone steals something, you get the signature date from the 3rd party and prove you owned it first
* [10:22] Rex Cronon: u can only offset by 1
* [10:22] Dahlia Trimble: there are more sophisticated methods
* [10:22] Saijanai Kuhn: there's lots of solutons if people REALLY want them. LL says they won't do them but won't stop them either
* [10:22] Gareth Ellison: the key is a system that withstands random modifications
* [10:22] Gareth Ellison: and there's tons already
* [10:23] Gareth Ellison: hmm, sounds like there's money in this
* [10:23] Gareth Ellison: goes to code it
* [10:23] Saijanai Kuhn: so anyway, that's the AWG work in a very confusing nutshell
* [10:23] LaPiscean Liberty: they suree is in second inventory
* [10:23] Latha Serevi: Sai, I think Gareth is describing something more robust against attempts to tweak-and-camouflage.
* [10:23] Saijanai Kuhn: LL is working on a new login and going past that to handle assets and so on through the Agent Domain
* [10:23] BigMike Bukowski: Belive it or not. Personally It'll help me not feel like a headless chicken at the meetings.
* [10:24] Saijanai Kuhn: Latha, maybe so. I'm just talking about what LL will and won't do
* [10:24] BigMike Bukowski: *It has. Wow I cannot type today
* [10:24] Prokofy Neva: Saijanai, it sounds like your concept still hinges on an asset server deciding everything, and that's like a Politburo, and it inevitably breaks down and is overthrown
* [10:24] Saijanai Kuhn: there's lots of things you could HIRE someone to do for you
* [10:24] LaPiscean Liberty: this meeting is definitive of the group name i think
* [10:24] LaPiscean Liberty: i learned alot
* [10:24] Saijanai Kuhn: Prokofy, maybe, but it has to be automated in SOME way. 1 billion users, remember?
* [10:24] Prokofy Neva: You want the asset server to constantly do the work of reviewing all these demands from all the Joes Garages, and it can't even function in its own grid without all those beggars.
* [10:24] Gareth Ellison: ok, i think i'll go and code this thing tonight
* [10:25] Saijanai Kuhn: Agent Domain will do the work, actually.
* [10:25] Gareth Ellison: prokofy - the asset server is the thing sending out the assets
* [10:25] Saijanai Kuhn: that's where you avatar should always be living
* [10:25] Latha Serevi: Prok, I thought a stingy asset server is what you would want. You're all about creator chains on content, right?
* [10:25] Gareth Ellison: denying them == LESS load
* [10:25] Prokofy Neva: I think long before there are any "billion users" there will simply be separate grids, they won't be connected.
* [10:25] Saijanai Kuhn: Prokofy that's why the new login and the agent domain concept.
* [10:25] Prokofy Neva: I realize that Gareth, and taxing it to do/not do that doesn't sound like a plan, given how it can't function now even without all those requests from outside
* [10:25] Saijanai Kuhn: its a server/host just for the avatar and avatar stuff
* [10:26] Gareth Ellison: we have new grids right now
* [10:26] Gareth Ellison: prok - if it crashes with load, it simply drops both legit and non-legit requests
* [10:26] Gareth Ellison: it won't say "yes" to non-legit requests just due to load
* [10:26] Saijanai Kuhn: right now, the sim handles physics and geometry, scripts, assets, group IM, inventory passing, and probably other stuff
* [10:26] Rex Cronon: it does kind of open the door for DOS, doesn't it?
* [10:26] Saijanai Kuhn: And the sims overload and the asset servers overload...
* [10:27] Prokofy Neva: Latha, I'm merely trying to think of ways to protect IP, because the stuff has to be paid for, and people need to earn a living, and there needs to be an economy, because only having some kind of buy/sell economy will make it viable and able to grow, you can't get a billion people to show up to a hippie picnic or a Ren Faire where everything is a freebie -- and it's the same freebies we've had since beta.
* [10:27] Saijanai Kuhn: so they're trying to divide the labor off the sim and make it "safer" for an open grid system at the same time
* [10:27] Gareth Ellison: prok - read what i said, it won't say yes to bad requests just because of load
* [10:28] Saijanai Kuhn: This,a s far as I can discuss it and understand it, is what they've come up with
* [10:28] Prokofy Neva: Gareth, I realize mere load doesn't break the consent for access, but it does set up a weak point in the system where it can always be bombarded and therefore prevent viable growth, like a DNS attack
* [10:28] Prokofy Neva: I read what you said, Gareth, and that's not my point
* [10:28] Gareth Ellison: ok
* [10:28] Gareth Ellison: so the answer is to make the asset server scale
* [10:28] Prokofy Neva: don't you see that as a terribl vulnerability?
* [10:28] Dahlia Trimble: www distribution models already exist for digital assets - iTunes, renderosity, ec.
* [10:29] Saijanai Kuhn: well, if the sims aren't able to talk directly to the asset server, the agent domain will be the poitn of the DOS attack (I think)
* [10:29] Gareth Ellison: i have an answer
* [10:29] Gareth Ellison: SQUID
* [10:29] Saijanai Kuhn: and the agent domain will be pretty simple, and therefore pretty robust
* [10:29] Gareth Ellison: LIGHTTPD
* [10:29] Prokofy Neva: Dahlia, they do, but they don't have to stream 3-d interactive contact that you can teleport to frmo anywhere in the system
* [10:29] Gareth Ellison: MEMCACHED
* [10:29] Gareth Ellison: YAWS
* [10:29] Dahlia Trimble: but their models could be studied
* [10:29] Gareth Ellison: all the cool stuff
* [10:29] Prokofy Neva: yes it's 10:29 pm, time to say MEMCACHED
* [10:29] Gareth Ellison: khttpd
* [10:30] Saijanai Kuhn: I don't know what those mean Gareth. The point thou, is that the simpler system can have more complext things BEHIND it, but the simple point of contact will be pretty easy to control and protect
* [10:30] Prokofy Neva: 
* [10:31] Saijanai Kuhn: heay all, I guess the meeting is officially over. We tend to ramble3 on for a while if anyone wants to stick around
Category: Grid Interoperability Chat Logs
Category: AW Groupies Transcripts