Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.12.03

Simulator_User_Group
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== List of Speakers ==
Adamburp Adamczyk	Andrew Linden 	Duckie Dickins
Inara Pey 	Jenna Felton 	Jonathan Yap
Kennylex Luckless	Kitto Flora 	Lucia Nightfire
Martinrj Fayray 	Mona Eberhardt	Rex Cronon
Simon Linden 	Siwo 	Whirly Fizzle
Yuzuru Jewell 	 	
== Transcript ==
[12:01] Kennylex Luckless: Andrew, do you know how many attachment point a avatar has ;-)
[12:02] Simon Linden: Hi everyone
[12:02] Lucia Nightfire: 40
[12:02] Jonathan Yap: 42 slots, but can't use them all at once, right?
[12:02] Andrew Linden: Something like 40... I'm not sure what the exact number.
[12:02] Andrew Linden: But some of those numbers include the HUD attachment points.
[12:02] Kitto Flora: Lucy - could be - though the returns are all the latest model of Railcar
[12:02] Duckie Dickins: I hope everyone had a nice thanksgiving.
[12:02] Lucia Nightfire: 40 points, 42 attachments allowed
[12:03] Lucia Nightfire: just saying that entire region was sold
[12:03] Lucia Nightfire: didn't even think rails ran through it, just to the region to teh south of it, Olive
[12:03] Adamburp Adamczyk: ys, to
[12:03] Whirly Fizzle: Isnt that attachment limit enforced serverside too?
[12:03] Adamburp Adamczyk: °• Batman! °•
[12:03] Kennylex Luckless: We need to give Andrew some bling to thest them
[12:03] Simon Linden: Did you folks talk about releases yet?
[12:03] Jonathan Yap: no
[12:04] Andrew Linden: I'm not going to be able to stick around for the whole meeting. I probably have to step out at 12:30 or so.
[12:04] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
[12:04] Andrew Linden: No Simon, we haven't really started yet.
[12:04] Mona Eberhardt: Hi Rex. Hi Baker.
[12:04] Kitto Flora: Lucy - line does not go Thr Indigo - curves dont even point at Indigo.
[12:04] Simon Linden: ok, I can cover that ... we updated the main channel today with a maintenance release
[12:04] Simon Linden: Details are at http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2013-12-02/td-p/2357395
[12:04] Yuzuru Jewell: Hello, Rex.
[12:04] Simon Linden: Tomorrow we will have another maintenance release on all 3 RC channels
[12:04] Jenna Felton: hello all i missed to greet and Lindens :)
[12:05] rcdsQueChatLog: Rex Cronon, you can read the log here:
http://rcds.nfshost.com/ques_view_chatLog.php?queOwner=llsl:Rex+Cronon&queName=chatLog&pg=1
[12:05] Simon Linden: It's not a big update and fixes a crash plus a minor fix to llGetAgentInfo()
[12:05] Rex Cronon: hi mona
[12:05] Rex Cronon: hi yuzuru
[12:06] Simon Linden: We may have another update before the holidays but will be locking things down in a couple of weekes
[12:06] Simon Linden: That's it for my news
[12:06] Andrew Linden: That is, there is a big No Change Window for SL updates that spans Christmas and the New Year.
[12:06] Kitto Flora: Wonder if it will fix the griefer crashes in Wenge - thats back at several per day
[12:07] Mona Eberhardt: Simon, remember when I asked about LSL functionality to control materials? I was pointed to a JIRA on this matter. It's MATBUG-359.
[12:07] Duckie Dickins: Has there been any asset issues lately? I rezzed an object recently and a sculpt that was part of the linkset turned itself into a torus
[12:07] Mona Eberhardt: So, there is actually a request for this.
[12:08] Jonathan Yap: I thought a sculpt started off as a torus
[12:08] Jenna Felton: is my computer, or all SL servers are down? including sl wiki and grid status and sl website?
[12:08] Martinrj Fayray: gridstatus works for me
[12:08] Jenna Felton: a sculpt started alwas as some ball of wood
[12:08] Mona Eberhardt: No problems here.
[12:08] Martinrj Fayray: but web profiles didn't work the past 4 days
[12:08] Jenna Felton: ok, than i have something here locally
[12:08] Simon Linden: Thanks Mona ... I'll see if we can get that in the queue for consideration
[12:09] Mona Eberhardt: I know all content creators will appreciate a speedy addition of this feature.
[12:09] Andrew Linden: I don't think there is a known problem with the asset system today. At least, the servers aren't falling over or anything.
[12:10] Martinrj Fayray: I don't think a user group exists for issues with the website? Could you maybe poke someone internally though for the profiles? They haven't been working for 3-4 days.
[12:10] Jonathan Yap: Andrew, Oz has some regions on Aditi for testing; maybe you can apply your server changes for storm-68 to Blizzard and Flurry
[12:10] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-68
[#STORM-68] As a Builder, I want that ability to set default permissions on creation of objects, clothing, scripts, notecards, etc. - Second Life Bug Tracker
[12:10] Martinrj Fayray: that would be cool
[12:11] Andrew Linden: Hrm... Jonathan that may be possible.
[12:11] Whirly Fizzle: Duckie, did you happen to be on Firestorm and were you building at the time using copy/paste object parameters? Theres a really bizarre bug on FS that can cause you to see all sculpts as torus till you relog.
[12:11] Kennylex Luckless: There is a new return bug, in Zoe a grief are stuck and 75 extra prims has been in a percel 6h now, Ritch (252,239,26)
[12:12] Andrew Linden: I'll have to negotiate with our #deploy team to get some servers for testing that feature. I've done that in the past.
[12:12] Andrew Linden: (^^^ regarding STORM-68)
[12:12] Jonathan Yap: kk, I was thinking it might be easier to merge your changes into what is already there
[12:12] Andrew Linden: no Jonathan, that wouldn't be easy I think.
[12:12] Duckie Dickins: No. I will check the item again after the meeting and see if it might be related though.
[12:12] Andrew Linden: Jonathan name one region that is part of Oz's regions on aditi.
[12:13] Jonathan Yap: Blizzard
[12:13] Andrew Linden: So I can look it up and see what it is running.
[12:13] Jonathan Yap: I think he has a block of 4
[12:14] Andrew Linden: Jonathan, I don't think Oz is in the office today. I don't see him hanging out in IRC.
[12:15] Jonathan Yap: Oz's HD is failing, computer woes
[12:15] Jonathan Yap: Also you can try Sleet
[12:15] Andrew Linden: I wouldn't want to replace his regions without him around, but I might be able to get a host or two for my own test channel.
[12:15] Andrew Linden: I'll ask the #deploy team later today and send you email with an update.
[12:15] Jonathan Yap: Thanks so much
[12:17] Andrew Linden reads back...
[12:18] Andrew Linden: Kennylex says there is a return bug. 75 extra prims in a parcel in Ritch.
[12:18] Rex Cronon: btw. what is the deal with avatars named "(???)
[12:18] Rex Cronon: (???)"
[12:18] Jonathan Yap: Rex, that is a display name that has not loaded yet
[12:18] Lucia Nightfire: dataserver or its people doign a certain exploit and leaving ghost behind
[12:18] Rex Cronon: "(???)(???)"
[12:19] Kennylex Luckless: Yes, the percel is full still 75 griefer prims got stuck there
[12:19] Andrew Linden: the parcel is over-full? or is just full?
[12:19] Kennylex Luckless: over full
[12:19] Whirly Fizzle: Or you're on a viewer that doesn't hide the asset avatar & someones uploading something
[12:19] Rex Cronon: i heard that that those r avatars that have been crased with "special" viewers
[12:19] Kennylex Luckless: +75 prims a long time now, oldie without auto return again.
[12:20] Lucia Nightfire: rex those can be generated at will
[12:20] Andrew Linden: hrm... what parcel is that Kennylex? Do you have a location or name?
[12:20] Lucia Nightfire: theres a few people that liek leaving multiples ghosts of them self behind in regions
[12:20] Kennylex Luckless: Ritch (252,239,26)
[12:20] Lucia Nightfire: it can screw with agent counts and blockade regions too iirc
[12:20] Rex Cronon: interesting
[12:20] Andrew Linden: ok I'll try to examine it later today.
[12:20] Kennylex Luckless: But not parcel name, I can send scout to get a name
[12:21] Andrew Linden: location is enough
[12:22] Andrew Linden: Rex and Whirly, are you saying that there are some hacked viewers that can logout and leave a ghost avatar in the region that never goes away?
[12:22] Andrew Linden: er... Rex and Lucia, I mean.
[12:23] Lucia Nightfire: I know three people that know how to do it at will, I've seen them do it
[12:23] Lucia Nightfire: but I was not allowed the info how
[12:23] Rex Cronon: i see that i have seen at least 2 avatars at swt with the name "(???)(???)"
[12:23] Whirly Fizzle: I don't know. I just know the asset avatar displays as (???)(???) in radar but it should be hidden on V3 anyway & its hidden by default on FS.
[12:23] Whirly Fizzle: Some viewers don't hide displaying it though
[12:24] Rex Cronon: lsl doesn't detect them
[12:24] Andrew Linden: If the names are "(???)" then the name lookup service is failing somehow.
[12:24] Lucia Nightfire: its (???)(???), not ???
[12:24] Jonathan Yap: Whirly can yousee the legacy name?
[12:24] Lucia Nightfire: you can't get reid of those ghost by any means other than reset afaik
[12:24] Whirly Fizzle: No, it doesn't have a name
[12:24] Rex Cronon: is (???)(???)
[12:24] Lucia Nightfire: at least I could send them home last time I tried
[12:24] Lucia Nightfire: *couldn't
[12:25] Whirly Fizzle: If you want to see them on FS set FSShowDummyAVsinRadar to TRUE
[12:25] Rex Cronon: i think only a sim crash can get rid of them
[12:25] Lucia Nightfire: doesn't teh asset av appear at 0,0,0 or 10,10,10?
[12:25] Whirly Fizzle: Ya
[12:25] Whirly Fizzle: 0,0,0
[12:25] Lucia Nightfire: these can be created at teh user's pos
[12:25] Lucia Nightfire: the ones we're talkign about
[12:26] Whirly Fizzle: I don't know anything about the griff ones
[12:26] Rex Cronon: what lucy says
[12:26] Lucia Nightfire: I just don't know how its done, heh
[12:26] Jonathan Yap: could the location of the asset avatar be changed to have a large Z value? At least then they would not show up as often for people nearby
[12:26] Rex Cronon: fake packets r sent to sim. i think
[12:27] Lucia Nightfire: I'm sure its some kind of process interruption/modification, heh
[12:27] Andrew Linden: What is the phenomena? This is an avatar that is rendered but doesn't actually exist on the server? or... a real avatar whose presence on the server is stuck?
[12:27] Whirly Fizzle: The IM test avatar also is called (???)(???). Develop -> XUI -> Send Test Ims
[12:28] Rex Cronon: i thought that ll didn't allow "special" viewers:)
[12:28] Lucia Nightfire: they show up on radar and afaik, llGetAgentSize() and llGetObjectDetails(), but can't be collided with or sent home/ejected
[12:28] Jonathan Yap: There are 2 things being talked about: the asset avatar created at 0,0,0 when uploading something
[12:28] Jonathan Yap: and the ones in other places with ??? names
[12:28] Lucia Nightfire: look like alpha mask wearing ruth haired av's
[12:28] Whirly Fizzle: Hmm is it mayabe avatars connected in with a voice hack?
[12:30] Andrew Linden: I don't have many ideas on what is going on based on the description. I'll probably have to witness it and check the server logs to get more clues.
[12:30] Jonathan Yap: Andrew, are you familiar with the asset avatar?
[12:30] Andrew Linden: No.
[12:30] Jonathan Yap: Someone please explain
[12:31] Andrew Linden: What is the "asset avatar"?
[12:31] Rex Cronon: this picture might give u an idea andrew: http://www.flickr.com/photos/_skills/8417365919/in/set-72157625593707479
[12:31] Rex Cronon: :)
[12:31] Siwo: wow :o
[12:32] Whirly Fizzle: Its the "avatar" that allows you to preview things before you upload. All uploads cause an asset avatar to appear on the region apart from bulk upload
[12:32] Jonathan Yap: It is located at 0,0,0
[12:32] Whirly Fizzle: Details here https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-28841
[12:33] Andrew Linden: So, the "asset avatar" is not a real avatar, but is rendered by the viewer. (?)
[12:33] Whirly Fizzle: Viewer 3 had a big where it wasn't hiding the presence of the asset avatar for a while & it caused mych fun with everyone wondering what it was
[12:33] Martinrj Fayray: it is real
[12:33] Whirly Fizzle: *bug
[12:33] Martinrj Fayray: it is real, but hidden by the viewer
[12:34] Whirly Fizzle: Ya you can see it, its a cloud & has a name tag, if your viewer doesn't hide it
[12:34] Andrew Linden: When I say "real" I mean that the avatar has a data representation on the server.
[12:34] Jonathan Yap: Andrew probably wrote the code for that asset avatar a decade ago :P
[12:35] Siwo: I remember seeing this like... half a year ago... funny thing was, those "avatars" could be kicked/sent home but they would return :D ...the only way to get rid of them was restart sim
[12:35] Andrew Linden: It sounds like it isn't actually a real avatar, but is a rendering glitch of the viewer? If you logout and back in it is gone?
[12:35] Andrew Linden: Does everyone see it? Or is is only visible to one person?
[12:36] Andrew Linden: oh...
[12:36] Whirly Fizzle: It appears whenever you do an upload, then poofs when the upload is complete
[12:36] Rex Cronon: everybody sees it
[12:36] Rex Cronon: even people that just tp in
[12:36] Whirly Fizzle: But I think you're talking about the griffy ones
[12:36] Andrew Linden: strange, I wonder how the asset avatar works...
[12:36] Andrew Linden: I wonder if it is a "Viewer Effect"
[12:36] Simon Linden: It's all viewer-side, if I remember right. I fixed one of those viewer glitches earlier this year
[12:37] Jonathan Yap: But for it to show on the mini-map the server has to be sending some Agent data about it
[12:37] Inara Pey: Is the "griefing" avatar an exploit of the asset avatar, or unrelated, or unknown?
[12:37] Andrew Linden: which are triggered by a viewer but are visible to other viewers when the server relays the message
[12:37] Rex Cronon: if u collide with that avatar than a lsl script detects a collision but its empty
[12:38] Andrew Linden: really?
[12:38] Jonathan Yap: Maybe it is time for a better way to preview an upload
[12:38] Andrew Linden: I feel like you guys are pulling my leg.
[12:38] Rex Cronon: i am not jocking about this andrew
[12:38] Lucia Nightfire: heh
[12:38] Jonathan Yap: Andrew, we could not all be that clever at once
[12:39] Andrew Linden: So I could make this avatar visible to myself by uploading something?
[12:39] Jonathan Yap: Follow the server upload code, there has to be something going on in there
[12:39] Simon Linden: now I remember ... you used to be able to block the asset AV, and that would kill your uploads :)
[12:39] Rex Cronon: it would take too much effort and coordination to do such an elaborate lie:)
[12:39] Martinrj Fayray: there was some discussion about it: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-28841
[12:39] Jonathan Yap: yes and look at 0,0,0 for it
[12:39] Whirly Fizzle: Yes you can
[12:39] Whirly Fizzle: If you tweak the viewer to show it
[12:40] Andrew Linden: Ok, I'll try it later. Uploading a texture works? or need some other asset?
[12:40] Martinrj Fayray: texture is fine
[12:40] Whirly Fizzle: Anything, texture works as long as you don't ise bilk upload
[12:40] Whirly Fizzle: *bulk
[12:40] Andrew Linden: how do I need to tweak the viewer to show it?
[12:41] Whirly Fizzle: I think it was Simon fixed it from showing on V3... see https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-28841?focusedCommentId=322910&page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel#comment-322910
[12:41] Martinrj Fayray: the easiest method would surely be to use a viewer without the fix for VWR-28841
[12:41] Simon Linden: There's a "mIsDummy" flag on the avatar object that is true for this special case
[12:42] Martinrj Fayray: Second Life 3.3.1 (254524)
[12:42] Andrew Linden: I'm using a really old Linux viewer now.
[12:43] Jonathan Yap: Andrew, did you write the upload code in 2003 or so?
[12:43] Whirly Fizzle: Oh well, here. This build still displayed the asset avatar http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Second_Life_Release/3.3.1
[12:43] Andrew Linden: well, maybe nto that old. 3.6.4... a test version of project interesting I guess.
[12:43] Whirly Fizzle: Just change channel to get past the updater
[12:43] Whirly Fizzle: :D
[12:44] Andrew Linden: No, I didn't write the upload code. Some of that was Phoenix.
[12:44] Andrew Linden: I've got to depart a bit early today.
[12:44] Andrew Linden: i.e. now
[12:44] Jonathan Yap: Thank you
[12:44] Rex Cronon: tc andrew
[12:44] Andrew Linden: Carry on without me.
[12:44] Yuzuru Jewell: Thank you, Andrew.
[12:45] Jonathan Yap: I just tried an upload and did not see anything at 0,0.0
[12:46] Whirly Fizzle: Try on http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Second_Life_Release/3.3.1
[12:46] Jonathan Yap: my viewer is older than that, so it should show
[12:46] Whirly Fizzle: V3 hid it, then it displayed, then it was fixed again
[12:46] Jonathan Yap: or maybe it is blocked
[12:47] Jonathan Yap: Is there anyone fixing WEB bugs these days, or is that team gone?
[12:47] Simon Linden: can someone repeat what the current problem with the asset AV is?
[12:48] Simon Linden: There are some over-worked people on that, Jonathan
[12:49] Whirly Fizzle: I don't know of any current problem with the asset avatar
[12:49] Lucia Nightfire: still waiting on someone to update teh map api cap key on teh website, lol
[12:49] Lucia Nightfire: been waiting for like 2 years now, lol
[12:52] Lucia Nightfire: also, I'm requireed by teh state to mention that the bomb is still a problem
[12:52] Lucia Nightfire: along with its dirty knock offs
[12:53] Rex Cronon: there is a solution to that lucy. if sim crashes than bomb stops:)
[12:53] Simon Linden: yeah, there are a lot of different attacks inside that thing
[12:53] Lucia Nightfire: yeah, but there are so many now that emulate the effects that return and continue the behavior
[12:54] Lucia Nightfire: what people are doing now are either repeatedly rezzing high prim coutn coalesced objects off-world or on a no rez parcel
[12:54] Lucia Nightfire: has the same effect, but not as long, depends on teh object count
[12:54] Duckie Dickins: I still think if you did L$ bounties for these exploits, there would be less in the wild and more turned in for the prize. :)
[12:54] Lucia Nightfire: can be sustained easily up to an hour though
[12:55] Rex Cronon: if the lindens don't/can't fix the bomb that very likely means they see sim crashing as the "fix" for the bomb;)
[12:55] Lucia Nightfire: which is surprising that even works
[12:55] Lucia Nightfire: its like asset handling is occurring before parcel checks or rez pos checks
[12:56] Simon Linden: A lot of The Bomb's real issue is once again we need a magical setting like "Only rez benign objects" or "Only run safe scripts"
[12:56] Siwo: I'm not sure if is this the right place to ask this... is there something to report stuck AnnMarie's vehicles? I was told they are all gone already, but.. guess what? There is one near my home :D Both, AnnMarie and the actual parcel owner didn't respond when I tried contact them. ...not that it was doing some harm, but a bus stuck in water way is Interesting :D
[12:56] Adamburp Adamczyk: seewo - contact ldpw
[12:57] Rex Cronon: i think u only need to deny any rezzing on no -rez parcels
[12:57] Adamburp Adamczyk: i did
[12:57] Adamburp Adamczyk: micheal will help on that
[12:57] Lucia Nightfire: there are still those taht get stuck on 0 return parcels
[12:57] Siwo: okay :)
[12:57] Adamburp Adamczyk: if it;s linden owned ladn
[12:57] Whirly Fizzle: They do still pay bounties for some SECs Duckie
[12:57] Whirly Fizzle: 10k
[12:57] Adamburp Adamczyk: the ones i spoke about, the ladn ahd no auto return set
[12:57] Siwo: ehm... it isn't linden land :/
[12:57] Adamburp Adamczyk: ahm, oaky
[12:58] Lucia Nightfire: I never saw money for my crash SEC's, lol
[12:58] Siwo: it has no auto return and no object entry... yet it still made it in the parcel and now... heh
[12:59] Lucia Nightfire: a sitter can defeat no entry
[12:59] Whirly Fizzle: They only pay when its fixed lol
[12:59] Duckie Dickins: They sent you a nice rez day cake for your crash SECs, Lucy
[12:59] Rex Cronon: haha whirly
[13:00] Simon Linden: lol - on that note, thanks everyone for coming this week
[13:00] Jonathan Yap: take care
[13:00] Adamburp Adamczyk: YEEHAW!!!!
Simulator_User_Group
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