Open Source Meeting/2009-04-30

* [14:02] Q Linden: Ok, while Merov is deciding who to sit on, here's the agenda for today:
* [14:02] Q Linden: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source_Meeting/Agenda#Agenda
* [14:02] Yann Dufaux: i have look for svn commit, on wiki whats this? :)
* [14:03] Yann Dufaux: hey Merov :)
* [14:03] Merov Linden: salut Yann
* [14:03] Q Linden: Usual warning, anything you say here will be posted on wiki
* [14:03] Yann Dufaux: comme promis j,suis ici :)
* [14:03] Q Linden: yann, don't understand the question?
* [14:03] Garmin Kawaguichi: :))
* [14:04] Yann Dufaux: 
* [14:04] Merov Linden: super, let's switch to English though in the local chat :)
* [14:04] Yann Dufaux: yes, no problem for me :)
* [14:04] Soft Linden: Mon bateau de vol plan est plein des anguilles.
* [14:04] Yann Dufaux: uh?
* [14:04] Techwolf Lupindo: Translaters suck for the most part.
* [14:05] Garmin Kawaguichi: :=)))
* [14:05] Soft Linden: "My hoverboat is full of eels."
* [14:05] Q Linden: yann, if you need instructions on SVN
* [14:05] Yann Dufaux: nice try :))
* [14:05] Yann Dufaux: Hehehe :)
* [14:05] Q Linden: look in global google
* [14:06] Q Linden: ok, to the agenda, please
* [14:06] Q Linden: Item 1: 1.23 RC0 -- comments, questions?
* [14:06] Techwolf Lupindo: I'me still working on getting my ebuild updated to RC0 so I can test it.
* [14:06] Elanthius Flagstaff: People are very angry about the eyebrows thing
* [14:06] Yann Dufaux: well nice adding, but i observ some bugs with picture:)
* [14:07] Soft Linden: Aimee was kind enough to verify that the 1.23 export is indeed building on a never-touched-by-Linden system. So it's a good time to dive in.
* [14:07] Yann Dufaux: 
* [14:07] Aimee Trescothick: :)
* [14:07] Q Linden: Eyebrows thing: yes, we know
* [14:07] Q Linden: We attempted to fix one set of inconsistencies, but many people depend on those inconsistencies, so we're going to revert it for RC1
* [14:07] Yann Dufaux: i have added some picture with this bugs, and i notice the same after update
* [14:08] Yann Dufaux: i test on the beta grid, and i don't have this result
* [14:08] Aimee Trescothick: moral if this story is, always check the consistency when you're baking
* [14:08] Aimee Trescothick: *of
* [14:09] Yann Dufaux: hi dirk :)
* [14:09] Dirk Talamasca: Hi Hi Yann
* [14:09] Q Linden: thanks, yann. we'll look at that
* [14:10] Thickbrick Sleaford: Does Restore to Last Position exists in RC0 the same as http-texture? If so, I expect lots of lost inventory...
* [14:10] Yann Dufaux: Q, your welcome, and i think the bugs with cloting strech and color on skin is back ..
* [14:10] Q Linden: Thickbrick, wehre is it in httptexture?
* [14:10] Thickbrick Sleaford: right where Wear used to be
* [14:10] Aimee Trescothick: it came in from 1.23 I believe
* [14:10] Thickbrick Sleaford: in the inventory right click menu
* [14:11] Q Linden: yes, it's in 1.23
* [14:11] Soft Linden: What's the "restore to last position" issue?
* [14:11] Soft Linden: Oh, menu replacement
* [14:12] Aimee Trescothick: I'm guessing you restore it to last position, but then don't know where the last position was
* [14:12] Thickbrick Sleaford: yes, like for huds and shoes
* [14:12] Aimee Trescothick: maybe that should require confirmation for no copy stuff or something
* [14:13] Dirk Talamasca: yeah you could be on the ground and rez a chair up in the wild blue yonder then spend an hour hunting for it
* [14:13] Q Linden: ok, well, we operate best if there's a JIRA on it
* [14:13] Thickbrick Sleaford: I lost a hud that will probably be returned to me some day that way
* [14:13] Thickbrick Sleaford: I'll hunt for a jura after the meeting
* [14:13] Thickbrick Sleaford: *jira
* [14:13] Yann Dufaux: Q, the actual jiras for this can be reopne, or i need to make a new jiras?
* [14:14] Yann Dufaux: reopen* sorry
* [14:14] Q Linden: yann, if a problem has returned, you can reopen a jira ... as long as it's really the same problem
* [14:15] Yann Dufaux: okey, ty! :)
* [14:15] Q Linden: anything else?
* [14:16] Q Linden: Ok, VWR-6198 -- can it get some love?
* [14:16] Mm Alder: It just celebrated a birthday!
* [14:17] Q Linden: So, mm, this got stalled internally over a licensing issue, but my not-a-lawyer take on it is that it should be OK. I'll ask Rob to follow up when he gets back.
* [14:17] Q Linden: I really hope it could be solved.
* [14:17] Soft Linden: Or at the very least, we should be able to post the souce for our part, and direct people on where to get the code with the sticky license.
* [14:17] Mm Alder: It would have been nice if someone responded on the JIRA.
* [14:18] Soft Linden: Want me to drop a reminder on the internal, Q?
* [14:18] Q Linden: Yes, please
* [14:18] Mm Alder: Posting whatever you have would be very good.
* [14:19] Q Linden: mm, give us a week, but let's cycle this to next week's agenda once Rob's back.
* [14:19] Mm Alder: It's the XML format I'm after. I don't want to run it.
* [14:19] Mm Alder: OK
* [14:19] Q Linden: oh? That might be easier
* [14:20] Q Linden: Next: Can we get better documentation on the open source viewer project (aka http-texture)? Is there anyone other than me who would be interested in open code reviews for this project? Mm Alder
* [14:20] Q Linden: mm, can you explain? How's that different from what we've been discussing on sldev?
* [14:21] Mm Alder: Permanent documentation is a good thing. Better than a mailing list archive.
* [14:21] Mm Alder: But even SLDEV doesn't have the answers.
* [14:22] Mm Alder: Is this new open source viewer (aka http-texture) his new open source portal or is it a sneaky underhanded backdoor to infiltrate the viewer codebase?
* [14:22] Aimee Trescothick: LOL
* [14:23] Q Linden: uhhh.... it's the new non-sneaky frontdoor?
* [14:23] Aimee Trescothick: get the lock picks
* [14:23] Soft Linden: It's not a sneaky back door.
* [14:23] Soft Linden: And something making it into the open source viewer doesn't guarantee that it goes into the main viewer. It's still subject to the same scrutiny as before when it makes that jump.
* [14:23] Morgaine Dinova: Can we please have proper documentation on the back doors? ;-)))
* [14:24] Q Linden: just grep the source for xyzzy
* [14:24] Morgaine Dinova: chuckles
* [14:24] Soft Linden: Ha!
* [14:24] Merov Linden: http-texture is an active open source collaboration where Lindens *and* outside contributors work together
* [14:24] Merov Linden: that's really the charter Philip gave us
* [14:24] Mm Alder: OK, let's say Joe Sldev (I think the name is Serbian) has a great idea that he want's to get into the SL viewer.
* [14:24] Mm Alder: He has a PJIRA entry with a patch file. How does that make its way to the SVN project? Does he have to worry about getting it into the SVN branch? Are there gatekeepers along the way? What if someone objects? Do we end up with SVN wars like Wiki wars?
* [14:25] Merov Linden: I haven't had time to answer that one in details Alder
* [14:25] Soft Linden: the only back door contribution method still involves bottles of scotch brought directly to the San Francisco, Brighton, Boston and Chicago offices.
* [14:25] Merov Linden: was in meetings since that mail arrived
* [14:25] Q Linden: Simultaneously
* [14:25] Morgaine Dinova: Is there a wiki page for Philip's viewer, something with links off to the relevant data?
* [14:25] Soft Linden: yus :>
* [14:25] Melinda Latynina: this is all still very much a work-in-progress, no? I.E. can't have permanant rules & regulations yet, but the good news is that we all get to help drive the direction.
* [14:25] Morgaine Dinova: checks
* [14:26] Q Linden: Seriously, though, I think that we're moving toward "post a patch, post on SLDev for feedback, react to feedback, eventually check in patch."
* [14:26] Mm Alder: But none of the policy seems to be written down yet.
* [14:26] Merov Linden: when Philip was there remember , he didn't want to start the project with a long list of "processes" and "regulation"
* [14:27] Mm Alder: I'm trying to get in literally a one bit change and I'm finding it very difficult.
* [14:27] Merov Linden: so his idea was more: proposes something on list and we get from there
* [14:27] Q Linden: mm, you mean lip flap?
* [14:27] Merov Linden: which one Alder?
* [14:27] Soft Linden: I wouldn't anticipate that subsequent contributions have the overhead of the first dozen.
* [14:27] Mm Alder: yes
* [14:28] Morgaine Dinova: Well in theory Philip's branch was intended to make it *easier* to commit changes. If it's still not easy enough, maybe a third LL VWR project is needed :P
* [14:28] Morgaine Dinova: laughs
* [14:28] Soft Linden: :)
* [14:28] Q Linden: facepalms
* [14:28] Soft Linden: Hold off on assuming that you know what the final process looks like until a few patches have gone through.
* [14:29] Merov Linden: Your contribution has been voted "in" Alder
* [14:29] Mm Alder: Does it have to be this hard?
* [14:29] Q Linden: we sure hope not
* [14:30] Q Linden: but we're still working it out...and everyone is still tentative
* [14:30] Robin Cornelius: i was very suprised by the reaction to such a simple change
* [14:30] Soft Linden: Anything touching on voice invites an awful lot of friction. I don't fully understand it myself.
* [14:30] Squirrel Wood: At least we know that one contribution method still involves bottles of scotch brought directly to the San Francisco, Brighton, Boston and Chicago offices. ^^
* [14:30] Q Linden: maybe we're just used to the surprise
* [14:30] Melinda Latynina: is not tentative :-)
* [14:31] Robin Cornelius: i would have 2nd my self but i've never evern seen teh code running as i almost never use voice, so i don't feel i can approve any code i can't test my self
* [14:31] Squirrel Wood: Or so I've heard.
* [14:31] Mm Alder: So when I want to contribute my next patch which has popup menus and writes files, what then?
* [14:31] Merov Linden: Alder: not everybody has commit privileges so it's assigned to someone who has
* [14:31] Morgaine Dinova: Might have been a good time to move to Hg actually.
* [14:31] Robin Cornelius: MM if its an area i know, then i would be happy to look
* [14:31] Merov Linden: this someone is me now
* [14:31] Aimee Trescothick: well Hg is there now at least :)
* [14:31] Soft Linden: Hg is coming. And we did talk about using it for this, but didn't want yet another thing that had to be working before launching.
* [14:32] Merov Linden: so you can kick my butt now if that doesn't move forward
* [14:32] Q Linden: morgaine, we're almost all the way to hg
* [14:32] Morgaine Dinova: Woohoo!
* [14:32] Q Linden: can't happen fast enough for me. :)
* [14:32] Mm Alder: Hg?
* [14:32] Q Linden: Mercurial source control
* [14:32] Aimee Trescothick: 
* [14:33] Q Linden: OK? "I wonder if someone could give a brief update on the status of plugin explorations." -- JB Kraft
* [14:33] JB Kraft: i found some discussion on the dev list from a couple of years ago, soft did some work on this i belive. just wondered if it stalled and why and what spark might ignite it again, if any?
* [14:33] Robin Cornelius: people have been contacting me recently about this as well
* [14:33] Q Linden: JB, it's smouldering as we speak
* [14:34] Morgaine Dinova: Mm: , 
* [14:34] Soft Linden: I sooooo want plugins. :<
* [14:34] Merov Linden: me too
* [14:34] Soft Linden: oops gesture
* [14:34] JB Kraft: yeah, it would be nice :) is there anything form outside that might push it along?
* [14:34] Q Linden: the stall has been that this is one case where the hack is the true enemy of a good design, because we'll be stuck with it forever (*cough*skin layers*cough*)
* [14:35] Merov Linden: it's not easy to get it right from the host standpoint
* [14:35] Morgaine Dinova: Plugins in what? In viewer? If anyone's working on that, I'd love to talk to them, since that's my goal for Imprudence.
* [14:35] Q Linden: so we've been working on an event system that would act as the transport of information between plugins
* [14:35] JB Kraft: ah ok, that is good news
* [14:35] Q Linden: You can see a preview of some of these ideas in the Notifications event API, but that's not complete yet
* [14:36] Merov Linden: Q: using IPC?
* [14:36] Melinda Latynina: JB: weren't you looking into a plug-in archetecture for text editors?
* [14:36] Q Linden: boost signals
* [14:36] JB Kraft: yes, the editor is one of my pet projects and that was a part of it. thats why i wondered :)
* [14:37] Q Linden: and...not coincidentally, we actually wanted to talk about script editor improvements today
* [14:37] Q Linden: we thought it would be a good time to start the design discussion on sldev/here
* [14:38] Melinda Latynina: i believe we can have plug-ins in multiple places and deal with the merits and weaknesses of each rather than try to find a one-size-fits-all
* [14:38] Q Linden: projects like (scratch for second life) need a plugin editor
* [14:38] JB Kraft: excellent! i have a bunch of patches for the editor but kind of got discouraged with process tbh. it would be great to hack out a path for it :)
* [14:39] Morgaine Dinova: --- that gives a general view of our plugin architecture for Imprudence.
* [14:40] Squirrel Wood: improvements... one simple improvements would be to allow bulk uploads of .txt and .lsl files ?
* [14:40] Q Linden: yes, morgaine...but some of the details of how the sockets communicate and what the control model is are key to getting this right
* [14:40] Q Linden: so I like that chart, but I want more. :)
* [14:40] Morgaine Dinova: This is the general forum, everything marked as [Plugins
* [14:40] Morgaine Dinova: 
* [14:41] JB Kraft: squirrel, i have a patch on the jira that load and saves from the editor to disc, kudgly at the mo but it works for me
* [14:41] Morgaine Dinova: Q: yep, the internal viewer API is central, and clearly needs to be event-based.
* [14:41] Robin Cornelius: JB i think squirrel whats the File->Uload->Bulk to support text for notecards and scripts (with approprate expension)
* [14:42] JB Kraft: ah, right
* [14:42] Robin Cornelius: pretty simple to do actually
* [14:42] Squirrel Wood: there is a jira somewhere for it even ^^
* [14:42] Robin Cornelius: but loading and saving from the text editor is a godsend
* [14:43] Morgaine Dinova: Q: are you thinking as we are then, that decoupling plugins from the viewer monolith is the key to sanity?
* [14:43] Q Linden: yes
* [14:43] Q Linden: *I* am
* [14:43] Morgaine Dinova: Great to hear! :-)
* [14:43] JB Kraft: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-5206
* [14:43] Q Linden: And we're moving in that direction...but honestly, it's a multi-year effort
* [14:43] Morgaine Dinova: Yep. not easy
* [14:43] Q Linden: A big chunk of our work this year is going to enabling that decoupling
* [14:43] JB Kraft: thats awesome Q!
* [14:44] Mm Alder: Please don't forget, "Is there anyone other than me who would be interested in open code reviews for this project? Mm Alder 15:57, 30 April 2009 (UTC) "
* [14:44] Morgaine Dinova: Just binding in a language would be pretty trivial, bit the wrong thing to do, if there is to be any hope of stability and portability.
* [14:44] Q Linden: right, morgaine; whatever we do, we do forever
* [14:45] Q Linden: so we really want to make sure it has a future
* [14:45] Q Linden: (while not living in analysis paralysis forever either!)
* [14:45] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah
* [14:45] Robin Cornelius: mm, i'm fully up for open code reviews
* [14:45] Aimee Trescothick: yes
* [14:46] Squirrel Wood: JB: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-7959
* [14:46] Q Linden: mm, that's what I thought the idea was behind posting the patch on jira before applying it
* [14:46] Q Linden: is that not the same thing you're saying?
* [14:46] Morgaine Dinova: Q: if anything happens on Imprudence plugins (and that's not certain), I'd appreciate your feedback.
* [14:46] Mm Alder: No, I mean a code presentation in-world where people can ask questions and learn a bit about what the code does.
* [14:47] Robin Cornelius: sounds like what Phillip was taking about
* [14:47] Merov Linden: Alder: that's more of a "design review" then (as in "code design")
* [14:47] Mm Alder: Philip was talking about it, but then ....
* [14:47] Q Linden: The more of that we see, the better....but I'm not sure it needs to be a required part of every submission.
* [14:48] Q Linden: depends a lot on the scope of what's happening, I guess
* [14:48] Q Linden: I think a valid response to "hey, I've just attached a patch" would be "I'd like to have a conversation about this inworld."
* [14:48] Mm Alder: If I were to ask someone to review my patch for editing morphs, I would be surprised if anyone would understand it without explanation.
* [14:48] Merov Linden: Alder: are you talking about general part of the viewer architecture or specific submission?
* [14:49] Mm Alder: Specific submission. But you'd also learn about the viewer in the process just by listening.
* [14:49] Merov Linden: understood
* [14:49] Morgaine Dinova: Instead of conversations in-world, how about insisting on Doxygen-style documentation in patches instead? That can be anything, including design documentation.
* [14:49] Mm Alder: I can ask Doxygen a question. :-)
* [14:50] JB Kraft: +1 morgaine
* [14:51] Merov Linden: well, on one instance, (VWR-12748 submitted by Robin) I reviewed and proposed a modified patch, she modified, etc...
* [14:51] Mm Alder: I love Doxygen, but it can't replace a human who understands the code.
* [14:51] Merov Linden: so the code review was done in the JIRA through a back and forth of commented patches
* [14:51] Morgaine Dinova: Mm: hehe, well Doxygen only reflects what devs put it ... but if there's a long chuck of code without any human-added Doxygen headers, then I think it's reasonable to ask "Hey, how about some explanatory text for this?" :-)
* [14:52] Q Linden: me too
* [14:52] Merov Linden: I guess IW presentation would be good for general part of the architecture or really hairy patches
* [14:52] Q Linden: that's a part of a good code review -- it shouldn't be just "does it work" but "is it maintainable"
* [14:53] Melinda Latynina: likes the idea of IW code/design reviews
* [14:54] Q Linden: So Aimee asks "Procedure for getting supporting artwork in before committing a patch to http-texture? i.e. VWR-12748[c
* [14:54] Merov Linden: realized he mixed up Robin and Aimee
* [14:54] Soft Linden: Ah, because the artwork has to go into the tarball, gotcha
* [14:54] Aimee Trescothick: that's OK, I get myself mixed up all the time
* [14:54] Melinda Latynina: artwork is far more easily changed/fixed later and therefore lower risk
* [14:55] Aimee Trescothick: yep, if I commit the patch before it's present, things will break/the universe will implode etc.
* [14:55] Soft Linden: I think with a special case like that, you can just ask a Linden to commit the art for you when you'd be ready to commit code. Then go ahead and commit code when you see the export complete with the art in it.
* [14:55] Soft Linden: Just get to the point where the group's signed off on the code, and you can kick off that request for help from a Linden.
* [14:56] Aimee Trescothick: ok
* [14:56] Squirrel Wood: tosses code completion and auto indentation into the script editor improvement battle pit. Place your bet while you still can :p
* [14:56] Melinda Latynina: Don't know if it's been mentioned but Rob created this plug-in task: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-5560
* [14:57] Q Linden: Heh, that's an external version of the one I wrote ages ago
* [14:58] JB Kraft: i vote elisp integration to the editor and then we are done! *ducks*
* [14:58] Q Linden: nudges conversation firmly bakc to plugins
* [14:58] Q Linden: I'll kick off the discussion on sldev with a reference to this JIRA. Thanks, Melinda!
* [14:58] Q Linden: any last comments? I've got a hard stop in 2 min
* [14:59] Melinda Latynina: JB: IIRC Richard proposed an OS editor that itself had a plug-in archetecture. do u remember what that was?
* [14:59] JB Kraft: i dont recall at the moment
* [14:59] Mm Alder: I'd still like more documentation of the open source viewer process on the wiki
* [15:00] Soft Linden: Mm - sometimes the best way to kick off documentation is to write the skeleton. People are often more motivated to fill in incomplete or wrong information than they are to start a fresh doc.
* [15:00] Morgaine Dinova: Great to see that there's a lot of internal interest in this general direction of plugins/external facilities . Our multicores are getting bored. :-)
* [15:00] Merov Linden: Alder: I think Rob fully intends to fluff up what he wrote so far
* [15:00] Soft Linden: That sums up the entirety of the wikipedia article lifecycle right there :)
* [15:01] Mm Alder: I could make something up :-)
* [15:01] Q Linden: And with that, I've gotta run. Thanks all, I'll post to wiki.
* [15:01] Morgaine Dinova: Thanks Q
* [15:01] Aimee Trescothick: Thank Q :)
* [15:01] Mm Alder: Thanks all
* [15:01] Soft Linden: Posting what you think is right, then dropping a link on sldev is likely to kick off the right discussions & motivate contributions.