Mesh/Archive/2012-05-07

==Agenda==
# I've found (at least on the beta grid) that if you go ahead an upload despite the "different number of texturable faces" error, it will upload, but it removes the material id that isn't present in all the LODs. Is this expected behavior?Ashasekayi Ra 00:10, 7 May 2012 (PDT)
# Non-rigged worn mesh experiences LOD switches at a very fast rate. (I assume that rigged mesh doesn't because it switches at the same rate as the avatar?) Would it be possible to have non-rigged worn mesh have the same LOD switch rate as rigged mesh at some point?Ashasekayi Ra 00:10, 7 May 2012 (PDT)
# People are looking at the current avatar and Qarl Fizz is pointing to the avatar as a part of the problem with mesh clothes that the Deformer is not going to be able to fix. VWR-1800 is becoming more popular. Is there anythin on the radar for at least some changes and/or tweaks to the avatar? Nalates Urriah
# What do we want? custom pivots! when do we want them? noooow! Motor Loon
# Where can I test the new mesh accounting? Motor Loon
# What is the appropriate thing to do when you think a Linden has closed a jira for demonstrably incorrect reasons, and you thgink it needs proper attention? Drongle McMahon
# I can't upload image file and model. The viewer 3.3.1(254524) was crushed when I select the model/image on upload - build menu. When I reinstalled it, I can upload it only one time. Yuzuru Jewell
# Opinion on Avatar 2.0 yet? https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Avatar_2.0 -- ₪ 12:04, 7 May 2012 (PDT)
# Body deformers, for mesh and non mesh avatars alike, tend to come on and off wrong until you relog. Oz told me this place was the best place for this question. Are there any plans for making deformers work with less glitches? - Davido Chrome 
# When we upload mesh, we might choose to "generate" the lowest LOD in the uploader... often we set it as low as possible - might it be possible instead of the silly triangle it may result to, to get an "invisible" setting intead... may well be the same number of triangles - but would be very nice to have it just go invisible instead of showing any of them? Motor Loon
# I have rezzed two arches, using both the same low poly collada file and the same lower poly physics shape collada file. On the first one, the 55 prim one, I uploaded in the normal way, attaching the physics file on the uploader. On the second one, the 36 prim one with Ivy, I uploaded the low poly collada file first with no physics shape. Then I uploaded the same physics shape collada file separately, made it transparent and linked it with the low poly collada file. I then set the physics shape to be "prim" and the other to be "none". I can walk through both arches, and the detail and LODs are the same, but one is significantly lower prim. Does this represent some problem in how land impact is being calcualted on physical meshes? Does it suggest a desired method to have lower prim physical mesh? [Vivienne Daguerre]
==Meeting Notes==
==Attendees List==
*Asha (ashasekayi.ra)
*√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome)
*DrFran Babcock (drfran.babcock)
*Drongle McMahon (drongle.mcmahon)
*Geenz Cat (geenz.spad)
*JIRA-helper (jira-helper)
*lucasyori2001 (lucasyori2001)
*Motor Loon (motor.loon)
*Nal (nalates.urriah)
*Nyx Linden (nyx.linden)
*Pamela Galli (pamela.galli)
*Rusalka Writer (rusalka.writer)
*Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi)
*Second Life (second.life)
*«∑ ÄŒØ…≥—Å—î—ï—ï SŒø…ëœÅ…¶—É (sopherian.yumako)
*Tiberious Neruda (tiberious.neruda)
*Tobias Novi (tobias.novi)
*Vincent Nacon (vincent.nacon)
*Bazz Fazz (vir.linden)
*Vivienne Daguerre (vivienne.daguerre)
*Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)
==Transcript for Monday May 7, 2012==
[12:00]	Nyx Linden 	greetings all
[12:01]	Bazz Fazz (vir.linden) 	Hello hello
[12:01]	Vincent Nacon 	muhaha!
[12:01]	Nyx Linden 	agenda is here, feel free to add topics: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group
[12:01]	DrFran Babcock 	hello, Vir, everyone
[12:01]	Rusalka Writer 	All-purpose squid!
[12:01]	Pamela Galli 	Calamari
[12:01]	Motor Loon 	very neat avi Rusalka
[12:02]	Rusalka Writer 	Mahalo! Most kind.
[12:02]	Nyx Linden 	we'll give everyone another minute or so to log in and then we'll get started
[12:02]	Motor Loon 	(and tasty with hotsauce)
[12:02]	Rusalka Writer 	Hey!
[12:02]	Motor Loon 	¬∞Õú¬∞
[12:02]	«∑ ÄŒØ…≥—Å—î—ï—ï SŒø…ëœÅ…¶—É (sopherian.yumako)	HAI2U!!!1!
[12:02]	Rusalka Writer 	Calamari my dreams...
[12:02]	Vivienne Daguerre 	while we do that, can I show you something odd?
[12:03]	Motor Loon 	no it's not an adult region Vivi
[12:03]	Vivienne Daguerre 	Arch A: Uploaded, adding the physics shape into the uploader, and setting prim type to prim so you can walk through the arch. 55 prims
[12:03]	DrFran Babcock 	yes, walking through mesh is a mess.
[12:03]	Vivienne Daguerre 	Arch B: Uploaded same collada file without setting physics, then uploaded the same physics mesh separately, linked them setting the physics mesh as the root and making it transparent, and then setting the higher prim mesh to none. Significant land impact savings. 36 prims
[12:04]	Nyx Linden 	there's more space on the grassy hill on the other side of the meeting space for example content :)
[12:04]	Vincent Nacon 	topic added
[12:04]	Nyx Linden 	hrm very interesting. We shall have to get to that later :)
[12:04]	Geenz Cat (geenz.spad) 	rezzing things in the spot I usually stand D:
[12:04]	Nyx Linden 	but for now, topic 1: "I've found (at least on the beta grid) that if you go ahead an upload despite the "different number of texturable faces" error, it will upload, but it removes the material id that isn't present in all the LODs. Is this expected behavior?Ashasekayi Ra 00:10, 7 May 2012 (PDT)"
[12:05]	Motor Loon 	Old viewer?
[12:05]	Motor Loon 	Mine wont let me do that anymore...
[12:06]	Vincent Nacon 	I believe that is expected behavior
[12:06]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Ughh...did I miss the answer to my question?
[12:06]	Pamela Galli 	Just read it out Asha
[12:06]	Nyx Linden 	I think the intention was that lower LODs could use a subset of the materials from the highest LOD, but I'd have to double check the code to be certain. I'm not sure if its working correctly at the moment, so reproduction info is always appreciated.
[12:06]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Ah ok great ^^
[12:07]	Motor Loon 	You certainly shouldn't be able to upload that on the maingrid
[12:07]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Ok then Nyx. Thanks.
[12:07]	Vincent Nacon 	yeah, gotta have those same ID mat
[12:07]	Motor Loon 	yeah
[12:07]	Motor Loon 	oh oh... got something to add to the agenda
[12:07]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Nyx; I just added a topic. Please refresh the agenda page?
[12:07]	Vincent Nacon 	add it
[12:08]	Bazz Fazz (vir.linden) 	Generally we want the viewer and server to have the same view of what's an error, but since those are implemented two different places they can get out of sync.
[12:08]	Nyx Linden 	I refresh periodically :)
[12:08]	Vincent Nacon 	wait... you didn't have any news, Nyx?
[12:08]	Bazz Fazz (vir.linden) 	Details on a repro/example model would be helpfukl.
[12:08]	Bazz Fazz (vir.linden) 	helpful also
[12:08]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Will do Bazz
[12:09]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "Non-rigged worn mesh experiences LOD switches at a very fast rate. (I assume that rigged mesh doesn't because it switches at the same rate as the avatar?) Would it be possible to have non-rigged worn mesh have the same LOD switch rate as rigged mesh at some point?Ashasekayi Ra 00:10, 7 May 2012 (PDT)"
[12:09]	Geenz Cat (geenz.spad) 	/me checks the agenda
[12:09]	Rusalka Writer 	I like this question.
[12:09]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	me too
[12:09]	Drongle McMahon 	But Nyx. It's noty supposed to lose the textures on the high LOD mesh. See https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-28612
[12:09]	JIRA-helper 	[#VWR-28612] Incorrect texture-face associations when low LOD meshes have subsets of high LOD materials. - Second Life Bug Tracker
[12:10]	Vincent Nacon 	it switches very fast because it loads the lowest LOD and then works up the LOD to the highest as it loads the whole asset
[12:10]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Ahh there is already a jira.
[12:10]	Nyx Linden 	thanks drongle, I'm pretty sure the current implementation is not matching the intention at the moment :)
[12:10]	Rusalka Writer 	Delicately phrased.
[12:10]	Vincent Nacon 	aye
[12:11]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	That isn't what I'm talking about Vincent.
[12:11]	Nyx Linden 	that's one possibility - or is the LOD switching happening after the mesh fully loads?
[12:11]	Nyx Linden 	based on zooming the camera in and out, I presume?
[12:11]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	I mean that the switch is different. The switch for a non-rigged worn mesh happens like it would if it were rezzed.
[12:12]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Oh wait, it got better.
[12:12]	Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi) 	Nyx crashed already?
[12:13]	DrFran Babcock 	well, I hope he can relog. It's been iffy
[12:13]	Nyx Linden 	apologies, have a crash to hunt down apparently
[12:13]	DrFran Babcock 	but, he's a Linden :-)
[12:13]	Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi) 	Heh.
[12:13]	Tiberious Neruda 	I'd think Lindens would be able to bypass disabled logins
[12:13]	Motor Loon 	I'd think Lindens would be able to bypass crashing ¬∞Õú¬∞
[12:14]	Nyx Linden 	if I had to guess, I'd say that the attachment is likely switching LODs based on its size, like a normal in-world object, but rigged meshes are switching based on the size of the total avatar
[12:14]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Crashes are ultimate non-discrimination app
[12:14]	Nyx Linden 	crashing is an equal-opportunity feature!
[12:14]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Right. That was my guess.
[12:14]	DrFran Babcock 	/me laughs
[12:14]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	I want to know if that can be changed.
[12:14]	Geenz Cat (geenz.spad) 	nice to see it's non-discriminatory I suppose~
[12:18]	Motor Loon 	yes it slowed back down
[12:18]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Like 0.5 fps.
[12:18]	Tiberious Neruda 	....alright. I'll leave it off for now
[12:18]	Motor Loon 	and fps is back up also
[12:18]	Vincent Nacon 	yeah I'm not seeing the visual glitches anymore
[12:19]	Nyx Linden 	ok once again :)
[12:19]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	wb Nyx
[12:19]	Vincent Nacon 	wb
[12:19]	Tiberious Neruda 	I think it was my rigged mesh causing it. I apologize
[12:19]	Vincent Nacon 	yeah, you're forgiven
[12:19]	Motor Loon 	if it did it's a bug ¬∞Õú¬∞
[12:19]	Tiberious Neruda 	(it's not supposed to do that)
[12:19]	Vincent Nacon 	aye
[12:20]	Nyx Linden 	I don't think we currently have any plans to make such a change, but I can ask around to see what opinions are on the matter. Thanks for bringing it up!
[12:20]	Vincent Nacon 	I don't think skinning on Mesh has been ironed out yet
[12:20]	Vincent Nacon 	cause I had some issue with it
[12:20]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Great. Thanks Nyx. :)
[12:20]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Can't you make a really big triangle with a separate material that you make invisible?
[12:20]	Vincent Nacon 	anyway... carry on, Nyx
[12:20]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "People are looking at the current avatar and Qarl Fizz is pointing to the avatar as a part of the problem with mesh clothes that the Deformer is not going to be able to fix. VWR-1800 is becoming more popular. Is there anythin on the radar for at least some changes and/or tweaks to the avatar? Nalates Urriah"
[12:20]	JIRA-helper 	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1800
[12:21]	Nyx Linden 	is that the right jira #?
[12:21]	Motor Loon 	cant be eh ¬∞Õú¬∞
[12:21]	Vincent Nacon 	doubt it
[12:21]	Tiberious Neruda 	but that takes up another material slot. We only get 8, and sometimes, we need every one we can get
[12:21]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Oops wrong JIRA SNOW-1800
[12:21]	Vincent Nacon 	can't see
[12:21]	Vincent Nacon 	wrong one again?
[12:22]	Bazz Fazz (vir.linden) 	STORM-1800?
[12:22]	JIRA-helper 	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-1800
[12:22]	Tiberious Neruda 	that sounds like it
[12:22]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	yep... I need my blond hair
[12:23]	Motor Loon 	hm... that might be hard to do and still keep compatibility with current skins and clothing?
[12:23]	Nyx Linden 	to my knowledge, we don't have a project planned around this. We would definitely need to be very careful about backwards compatibility here
[12:23]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Motor, shouldn't be. Might kill of v1 viewers for good though, if the new avatar requires a mesh viewer.
[12:24]	Vincent Nacon 	speaking of which... wait for the other topic that I added
[12:24]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Actually, it should make old clothing look even better as well.
[12:24]	Bazz Fazz (vir.linden) 	We have been evaluating one weighting tweak from the open source community, might consider others. As nyx says, avoiding breaking compatibility is a big concern.
[12:24]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	The coming problem is some mesh clothes problems are based in avatar mesh problems. I expect there to be more interst in 1800
[12:25]	lucasyori2001 	su
[12:25]	Nyx Linden 	definitely good to note that the two are related
[12:25]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	It's just the weights that has changed, not the number of faces. So, old clothing SHOULD look better too.
[12:25]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	I appreciate the concern. I am hoping small things can improve the avatar.
[12:25]	Tiberious Neruda 	but doesn't STORM-1800 simply want to fix the vertices that are already there?
[12:25]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Yes Tiberious
[12:25]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Yeah.
[12:25]	Nyx Linden 	storm 1800 sounds like a weighting issue, which would affect the shape but not the geometry, if I'm reading correctly
[12:25]	lucasyori2001 	sobe
[12:26]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	That wouldn't hurt clothing layers.
[12:26]	lucasyori2001 	beija
[12:26]	Vincent Nacon 	it would hurt the rigged mesh outfits
[12:26]	Rusalka Writer 	Just put the correct feet on the correct legs.
[12:26]	Vincent Nacon 	maybe
[12:26]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Might be harder to fit some sculptie parts, I guess. I don't know.
[12:26]	Tiberious Neruda 	yeah. It would make the avatar's weighting symmetric between left and right
[12:26]	Nyx Linden 	but it would be a change to the shape, and some creators could rely on very specific behavior of that poor weighting. It may be possible to make good tweaks, but its just something to be cautious of.
[12:27]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	I'm not sure if weighting affects the Defromer. So, some what to move some vertices around and carefully add some at key points. How many can be added or moved will affect compatibility.
[12:27]	Motor Loon 	Mabye offer an alternative avatar with the "normal" one still able to be used
[12:27]	Motor Loon 	whispers: ?
[12:27]	Bazz Fazz (vir.linden) 	Anything that changes shape could cause problems for attachments, etc. I'm not saying it could never happen, but we have to be very paranoid about compatibility.
[12:27]	Nyx Linden 	that gets to topic 8, so we should probably move on :)
[12:27]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	You should be able to add faces if you are careful to make a new UV.unwrap cover the same area.
[12:27]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	k
[12:28]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "What do we want? custom pivots! when do we want them? noooow! Motor Loon"
[12:28]	Motor Loon 	yaay
[12:28]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Yaaaaay!
[12:28]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	lol
[12:28]	Rusalka Writer 	Pony.
[12:28]	Vincent Nacon 	can I answer that for you, Nyx?
[12:29]	Vincent Nacon 	Motor, don't make me slap you!
[12:29]	Motor Loon 	no vincent.. coz you're a grumpy meaning
[12:29]	Motor Loon 	meanie
[12:29]	Geenz Cat (geenz.spad) 	seems like a lot of things like this could be rolled into their own avatar project
[12:29]	Vincent Nacon 	muhaha!
[12:29]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	+1 Motor
[12:29]	Vincent Nacon 	oh sure... say a guy who look bigger and tougher than me
[12:29]	Vincent Nacon 	in dark outfit
[12:30]	Nyx Linden 	we don't currently don't have this work scheduled, but I'll make a note that its still a high priority for our creators
[12:30]	Vincent Nacon 	ahhhh he crashed again?
[12:30]	Motor Loon 	pfft I'm just a little butterfly
[12:30]	Vincent Nacon 	oh n/m
[12:30]	Motor Loon 	it is ... yaay... he didnt say no... yaay...
[12:30]	Nyx Linden 	so many more features to work on than we have hours in the day to do the work :)
[12:30]	Vincent Nacon 	in other words.... just chill and wait
[12:30]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Any fun ones you can talk about ?
[12:30]	Motor Loon 	so hire more dev's... you guys make enough to do it ¬∞Õú¬∞
[12:31]	Nyx Linden 	we do have a couple of dev positions open on our jobs page..... :D
[12:31]	Motor Loon 	see... problem solved
[12:31]	DrFran Babcock 	Nal wants a scoop!
[12:31]	Vincent Nacon 	but Motor... hiring more dev would means they'd need to be educated about how SL works and their workflow... could take a while
[12:31]	Motor Loon 	"Devs wanted to make all Motors dreams come true"
[12:31]	Tiberious Neruda 	speaking of points that have been talked about...
[12:31]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Dr :p
[12:32]	Nyx Linden 	alright, keeping moving so we can get to all the topics
[12:32]	Motor Loon 	nah... just show'em the coke machine and they'll be fine.... I know how dev's work
[12:32]	Tiberious Neruda 	...what's the latest on getting attachment point offsets recognized by the importer?
[12:32]	Vincent Nacon 	next
[12:32]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	If I take a job they'll NDA me to shut me up :(
[12:32]	Nyx Linden 	next: "Where can I test the new mesh accounting? Motor Loon"
[12:32]	Vincent Nacon 	oy...
[12:32]	Geenz Cat (geenz.spad) 	I'll take a job at LL? :p
[12:32]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	I think Falcon has it on the ADITI grid but I'm not sure.
[12:33]	Vincent Nacon 	not yet
[12:33]	Nyx Linden 	the accounting changes are being tested in the pathfinding testing, I don't have more detail on exactly where to test the latest version of the code
[12:33]	Vincent Nacon 	it's on the next roll
[12:33]	Motor Loon 	on the PF regions mabye?
[12:33]	Drongle McMahon 	Where?
[12:33]	Rusalka Writer 	This can only go well.
[12:33]	Motor Loon 	kk... I'll annoy Falcon about it when I see him then
[12:33]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Drongle, ask Andrew or Falcon. They are most likely to know.
[12:33]	Nyx Linden 	falcon certainly should know
[12:33]	Vincent Nacon 	wait... Motor, you were at the meeting in Pathfinding
[12:34]	Motor Loon 	yes but it wasnt active there
[12:34]	Motor Loon 	not with the recent changes and all
[12:34]	Vincent Nacon 	right... but Falcon mentioned about when
[12:34]	Nyx Linden 	the recent changes were proposals, they take time to code and deploy :)
[12:34]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	They have transcripts for PFUG up now. Check the User Groups page.
[12:34]	Motor Loon 	did he?... I must have been looking at someone's boobs then
[12:34]	Vincent Nacon 	yup
[12:34]	Vincent Nacon 	:P
[12:35]	Nyx Linden 	alright, so next topic: "What is the appropriate thing to do when you think a Linden has closed a jira for demonstrably incorrect reasons, and you thgink it needs proper attention? Drongle McMahon"
[12:35]	Motor Loon 	Just do what Tiberious do
[12:35]	Motor Loon 	crash em
[12:35]	Motor Loon 	¬∞Õú¬∞
[12:35]	Rusalka Writer 	Win.
[12:35]	Nyx Linden 	we don't have a formal process, but informally I would find an appropriate usergroup or linden to discuss the specifc issue with - it depends on what jira it is.
[12:36]	Pamela Galli 	I thought you could just reopen it
[12:36]	Drongle McMahon 	Do you normally go on reading them after vthey are closed?
[12:36]	Tiberious Neruda 	lolololol
[12:36]	Drongle McMahon 	I thought you got banned if you bre-opened them?
[12:36]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	When they close it saying "too little information" I usually add more information and reopen it.
[12:36]	Drongle McMahon 	*re-opened
[12:36]	Vincent Nacon 	only if it was a stupid reason to re-open it
[12:37]	Nyx Linden 	feel free to PM me a link to the issue and I'll look into it. Otherwise Oz should know who is the correct linden to talk to.
[12:37]	Second Life 	Endo Gladry (jes.cobalt) is now known as Flippin'.
[12:37]	Drongle McMahon 	I guess I'll try the server meeting first.
[12:38]	Motor Loon 	this an jira we can see Drongle?
[12:39]	Nyx Linden 	ok, I'll follow up offline about that
[12:40]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "I can't upload image file and model. The viewer 3.3.1(254524) was crushed when I select the model/image on upload - build menu. When I reinstalled it, I can upload it only one time. Yuzuru Jewell"
[12:40]	Drongle McMahon 	I don't want to start an argument.
[12:40]	Vincent Nacon 	then quit it
[12:40]	Vincent Nacon 	:P
[12:40]	Nyx Linden 	that sounds like a rather annoying bug - can we get a logfile and/or a jira?
[12:40]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	There is a new bug with MS Skydrives causeing a crash on image upload.
[12:40]	Motor Loon 	crushed viewer?
[12:41]	Rusalka Writer 	Sounds like an old bug I used to enjoy.
[12:41]	Tobias Novi 	how about to tell WHERE the log file hides
[12:41]	Motor Loon 	sounds pretty bad
[12:41]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	VWR-28843
[12:41]	JIRA-helper 	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-28843
[12:41]	Nyx Linden 	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Debug_Help#Where_do_I_find_my_SecondLife.log_file.3F
[12:42]	Nyx Linden 	its slightly different on each OS, but that wiki page gives you the location for your system
[12:42]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Oh skydrive!
[12:42]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	I just use it.
[12:42]	Tobias Novi 	i searched there 100 times but there never was anything
[12:42]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Which OS are you running Yuz?
[12:42]	Drongle McMahon 	What's a skydrive?
[12:42]	Vincent Nacon 	like a web host
[12:43]	Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi) 	cloud file hosting.
[12:43]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Cloud storage for free.
[12:43]	Vincent Nacon 	or iCloud
[12:43]	Motor Loon 	like a harddisk not in your computer but on the internet
[12:43]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	7 64bit
[12:43]	Vincent Nacon 	cloud.... I hate that word.... it's just a web host really
[12:43]	Nyx Linden 	aha, sounds like that may be the issue then?
[12:43]	Drongle McMahon 	You give your files to Microsoft?
[12:43]	Nyx Linden 	good to know that we already have a report for that
[12:43]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Latif found a fix for Win7 64... but Win7 32 and 64 see it.
[12:44]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Drongle, you doubt MS's motives?
[12:44]	Vincent Nacon 	pretty much so, Drongle
[12:44]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Ok, I uninstall skydrive, and check it.
[12:44]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Yuz, read the JIRA Latif tells how to fix.
[12:44]	Drongle McMahon 	No doubts.
[12:44]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	I use it only public file.
[12:45]	Nyx Linden 	sounds like we know where to check for debugging info - thanks for bringing it up
[12:45]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 	Thank you.
[12:45]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "Opinion on Avatar 2.0 yet? https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Avatar_2.0 -- ‚Ç™ 12:04, 7 May 2012 (PDT)"
[12:45]	Geenz Cat (geenz.spad) 	oh boy
[12:45]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	lol....
[12:45]	Motor Loon 	I'm kinda happy with avatar 1.0 still
[12:45]	Tobias Novi 	did something change with the physics cost calculation? if the mesh uploader calculates physics at 0.6 , the physic cost should be at 0.6 after enabling it and not at 8.0 ?
[12:46]	Vincent Nacon 	sounds like maybe Skydrive have some packet data load with the file to treat differently from typical "download"
[12:46]	Nyx Linden 	answer: yep I have no shortage of opinions on avatar 2.0. Thanks for asking! next topic :)
[12:46]	Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi) 	Hah
[12:46]	Motor Loon 	lmao
[12:46]	Geenz Cat (geenz.spad) 	hahaha oh wow
[12:46]	Motor Loon 	funny little robot
[12:46]	Vincent Nacon 	just let you know, that question was actually meant for the people here than just for the Lindens.
[12:46]	Geenz Cat (geenz.spad) 	that's great
[12:46]	Vincent Nacon 	:P
[12:46]	Rusalka Writer 	With the proprietary armature, there's no real way we can do 2.0.
[12:47]	Geenz Cat (geenz.spad) 	well, with Avatar 2.0, you run into a lot of problems with regards to existing content; not necessarily breaking it mind you, but how it'd have to be adapted
[12:47]	Vincent Nacon 	sure there is
[12:47]	Rusalka Writer 	About the custom armatures...
[12:47]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Nyx's pasted link didn't work for me. This right? https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Avatar_2.0
[12:47]	Vincent Nacon 	yup
[12:47]	Motor Loon 	what excactly is it you want to do with avatar 2.0 that you can't do with avatar 1.0 ?
[12:47]	Rusalka Writer 	Look nice.
[12:47]	Motor Loon 	I look awesome already
[12:47]	Rusalka Writer 	Right foot on right leg.
[12:48]	Rusalka Writer 	No funnel chest.
[12:48]	Tiberious Neruda 	...avatar 2.0 would REALLY have to improve upon 1.0 for me to get behind it. We'd need: asymmetric arm/leg texturing, finger bones, face bones, and other similar improvements
[12:48]	Vincent Nacon 	more control on clothes layer, animation expansion, etc etc
[12:48]	Vincent Nacon 	yeah, it's all in there
[12:48]	Rusalka Writer 	No jazz hands.
[12:48]	Nyx Linden 	avatar 2.0 (like web 2.0) is a nebulous project that can mean many things to many people. currently we don't have a project team focused on such a project, so anything I could say about it would be speculation just as much as anyone else
[12:48]	Vincent Nacon 	even suggestion for extra bones for extra limbs
[12:48]	Geenz Cat (geenz.spad) 	Avatar 2.0 would be a pretty large can of worms
[12:48]	Motor Loon 	sounds like just alot of extra lag for everybody
[12:48]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	The ability to easily make more alien shapes would be one, with more limbs and joints
[12:49]	Vincent Nacon 	like tails and or another pair of arms
[12:49]	Rusalka Writer 	"Limbs?"
[12:49]	Rusalka Writer 	Sure.
[12:49]	Motor Loon 	yeah... we need that... more aliens in SL... ,-)
[12:49]	Drongle McMahon 	Why not arbitrary skeletons first? Then you can make any avatars you like?
[12:49]	Rusalka Writer 	Pony.
[12:49]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Also, this choose between Male or female bugs me. Would make much more sense to have a slider for that. Then there would be a lot more room for creativity.
[12:49]	Geenz Cat (geenz.spad) 	it'd probably be more productive to focus on how rigged meshes could be enhanced
[12:49]	Vincent Nacon 	also face expression through animation than typical pre-set of faces
[12:49]	Tiberious Neruda 	and maybe a 'free-swinging' bone chain for those of us who'd want tails and flowing hair that wouldn't need animations to make move
[12:50]	Motor Loon 	Sparklepony
[12:50]	Rusalka Writer 	Ooooh...
[12:50]	Vincent Nacon 	hair
[12:50]	Vincent Nacon 	shader mapping
[12:50]	Rusalka Writer 	The meeting, she is out of control.
[12:50]	Geenz Cat (geenz.spad) 	let's move on
[12:50]	Nyx Linden 	I have seen the shiny robot-ponies of the future, and they are glorious.
[12:50]	Rusalka Writer 	*sob*
[12:50]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	lol Nyx
[12:51]	Vincent Nacon 	the point is, would like to have more thoughts into it as it has been sitting their for a while
[12:51]	Vincent Nacon 	there*
[12:51]	Drongle McMahon 	Who needs ponies when you can have squids?
[12:51]	Nyx Linden 	feel free to add more topics to discuss things in more specific terms, but I want to make sure we have time for the next two topics
[12:51]	Rusalka Writer 	There is that...
[12:51]	Vivienne Daguerre 	perhaps you should call a meeting of your own to get that input Vincent.
[12:51]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "Body deformers, for mesh and non mesh avatars alike, tend to come on and off wrong until you relog. Oz told me this place was the best place for this question. Are there any plans for making deformers work with less glitches? - Davido Chrome"
[12:51]	Tiberious Neruda 	(I really think that would be the best way to make a fleximesh that would be less viewer-intensive)
[12:51]	Vincent Nacon 	yeahhh....
[12:51]	Geenz Cat (geenz.spad) 	three topics :p
[12:51]	Vincent Nacon 	I've tried
[12:51]	Tiberious Neruda 	umm, what do you mean body deformers?
[12:52]	Vincent Nacon 	joint position?
[12:52]	Tiberious Neruda 	like... joint-offsetting meshes?
[12:52]	Nyx Linden 	do you have a specific reproduction of the issue? a video capturing the bad behavior?
[12:52]	Motor Loon 	please continue rambling while I get coffee so I dont miss anything important...
[12:52]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Qarl's deformer?
[12:52]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Uhm. Happens to the petites a lot.
[12:52]	Tiberious Neruda 	hmm
[12:52]	Vincent Nacon 	you mean the hips?
[12:53]	Tiberious Neruda 	sounds like they're not wearing the avs right
[12:53]	Vincent Nacon 	because the hips does change the joint position
[12:53]	Vincent Nacon 	in the width, that is
[12:53]	Tiberious Neruda 	I've noticed that unless you use Add, you'll end up deformed if you try to take it off
[12:53]	Vincent Nacon 	shoulders too, also
[12:54]	Tiberious Neruda 	and if you happen to wear two meshes that use joint offsets, that will do it too
[12:54]	Vincent Nacon 	or collars as it's labeled that way in bone
[12:54]	Nyx Linden 	sounds buggy. If you can figure out a way to reliably reproduce it and can capture a video of the behavior, please do send in a bug report
[12:54]	Vincent Nacon 	yeah
[12:54]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	When I change back from this avatar, The eyes often come on wrong.
[12:54]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	See?
[12:54]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Bulging eyes.
[12:54]	Tiberious Neruda 	Nyx, I wrote up a notecard that details how to work around the bugs
[12:55]	Motor Loon 	eyes look good to me
[12:55]	Motor Loon 	mabye local?
[12:55]	Vincent Nacon 	Davido, that glitch isn't server side
[12:55]	Vincent Nacon 	it's randomly on some viewers
[12:55]	Vincent Nacon 	so you may see it wrong but I see you fine
[12:55]	Nyx Linden 	please do send in more detailed information and we'll take a look at it :)
[12:55]	Tiberious Neruda 	if I follow the steps, I never get deformed
[12:55]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Eyes look ok to me Alve
[12:55]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Ok. Thank you. :)
[12:55]	Motor Loon 	next!
[12:55]	Nyx Linden 	next topic: "When we upload mesh, we might choose to "generate" the lowest LOD in the uploader... often we set it as low as possible - might it be possible instead of the silly triangle it may result to, to get an "invisible" setting intead... may well be the same number of triangles - but would be very nice to have it just go invisible instead of showing any of them? Motor Loon"
[12:56]	Motor Loon 	Oh... thats a GREAT idea!
[12:56]	Motor Loon 	¬∞Õú¬∞
[12:56]	Rusalka Writer 	Lol...
[12:56]	Nyx Linden 	you can leave out LODs if you don't want to use them, none is an acceptable option for lower LODs, the next highest LOD will be used.
[12:56]	Pamela Galli 	agree
[12:56]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	lol
[12:56]	Motor Loon 	no thats not quite true
[12:56]	Vincent Nacon 	don't.... make .... me....
[12:56]	Nyx Linden 	or are you asking for the entire object to disappear?
[12:56]	Motor Loon 	yes
[12:56]	Pamela Galli 	yes
[12:56]	Motor Loon 	at he lowest LOD for example
[12:56]	Tiberious Neruda 	the entire object to disappear visually
[12:57]	Motor Loon 	no single fugly triangle left behind
[12:57]	Pamela Galli 	Rather have nothing than a triangle for sure
[12:57]	Motor Loon 	could be used on higher LODs too... like...
[12:57]	Motor Loon 	funiture inside a small room
[12:57]	Motor Loon 	they dont need LOD at all
[12:57]	Motor Loon 	but look thru the windows
[12:57]	Motor Loon 	and you see a room full of ugly triangles
[12:57]	Nyx Linden 	it would be much better behavior to make the lowest LOD be the most simple representation of the object possible
[12:57]	Motor Loon 	better invisible
[12:58]	Motor Loon 	yes
[12:58]	Motor Loon 	can we have it?
[12:58]	Motor Loon 	please...
[12:58]	Vincent Nacon 	Nyx, want they want to do was kill prim count
[12:58]	Nyx Linden 	two triangles for a flat sprite, or a box for example
[12:58]	Tiberious Neruda 	Nyx
[12:58]	Drongle McMahon 	I like the invisible idea too.
[12:58]	Rusalka Writer 	Invisible gets my vote.
[12:58]	Motor Loon 	I dont care if it still "counts" as several triangles
[12:58]	Motor Loon 	aslong as I dont have to see them
[12:58]	Tiberious Neruda 	the problem with that is that it takes up another material spot, and you'd have to have a triangle with the 'solid' matrial on that lowest LOD, or else the uploader complains
[12:59]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Howabout having Sprite, peroiod, as a lowwest LOD option?
[12:59]	Vincent Nacon 	can't you just stick it on a ID#8 with full alpha?
[12:59]	Tobias Novi 	invisible , lowest possible aperiance is most likely way more LI
[12:59]	Vivienne Daguerre 	for some items that makes sense. Like a hair brush on a table inside a house. Back off far enough, does not matter if it disappears
[12:59]	Motor Loon 	yeah no workarounds with materials
[12:59]	Motor Loon 	I need those ¬∞Õú¬∞
[12:59]	Nyx Linden 	or have a corner of one of your materials be a small invisible section, and use UV mapping
[12:59]	Motor Loon 	all of them
[12:59]	Drongle McMahon 	The problem with the triangle is that it has to be as big as the mesh and can look bad, or waste a texture to be invisible.
[12:59]	Vincent Nacon 	true
[12:59]	Tobias Novi 	spending one material spot for that ???
[12:59]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	What if the person is already using 8 materials.
[12:59]	Tiberious Neruda 	again, no go, Nyx. If any part of the texture is alpha, the whole texture is alpha and thus subject to the alpha sorting bug
[12:59]	Nyx Linden 	you shouldn't need a separate texture to make something invisible, just a few texels on a texture you're already using
[12:59]	Tobias Novi 	thats a typical LL fix sorry
[13:00]	Vincent Nacon 	or just have the triangle facing away from typical view
[13:00]	Motor Loon 	no... just make it invisible... problem solved
[13:00]	Vincent Nacon 	like... toward the ground
[13:00]	Nyx Linden 	honestly we don't have cycles to look at this anytime soon
[13:00]	Geenz Cat (geenz.spad) 	sounds like there should be a means to flag if a surface really needs alpha blending or not :P
[13:00]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Nyx: He is talking about auto-generated LODs not custom LODs.
[13:00]	Motor Loon 	yes, autogenerated stuff
[13:01]	Vincent Nacon 	or a drop down menu to pick "none"
[13:01]	Motor Loon 	yep
[13:01]	Drongle McMahon 	Extra choice = "Nothing"
[13:01]	Motor Loon 	simple as that
[13:01]	Motor Loon 	I'd love it!
[13:01]	Vincent Nacon 	I can see some use for it
[13:01]	Tiberious Neruda 	or better, 'Don't Render'
[13:01]	Motor Loon 	yes
[13:01]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Yes!
[13:01]	Rusalka Writer 	"Don't Bother."
[13:01]	Motor Loon 	dont render = great for resource use and lag
[13:01]	Tobias Novi 	don't render souns fairly good
[13:01]	Drongle McMahon 	DNR
[13:01]	Motor Loon 	¬∞Õú¬∞
[13:01]	Vincent Nacon 	Fuggetabutit
[13:02]	Rusalka Writer 	As in, don't bother, will suck.
[13:02]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Tiberious: If you use a separate texture with alpha for just the LOD. You won't get the alpha glitch in your other LODs.
[13:02]	Tiberious Neruda 	Asha: but that takes up a material slot
[13:02]	Nyx Linden 	anyways we're over time - need to move on to the last topic
[13:02]	Vincent Nacon 	next!
[13:02]	Rusalka Writer 	Reverse the normals.
[13:02]	Tiberious Neruda 	and your lowest LOD will require that material there
[13:02]	Nyx Linden 	next: "I have rezzed two arches, using both the same low poly collada file and the same lower poly physics shape collada file. On the first one, the 55 prim one, I uploaded in the normal way, attaching the physics file on the uploader. On the second one, the 36 prim one with Ivy, I uploaded the low poly collada file first with no physics shape. Then I uploaded the same physics shape collada file separately, made it transparent and linked it with the low poly collada file. I then set the physics shape to be "prim" and the other to be "none". I can walk through both arches, and the detail and LODs are the same, but one is significantly lower prim. Does this represent some problem in how land impact is being calcualted on physical meshes? Does it suggest a desired method to have lower prim physical mesh? [Vivienne Daguerre]"
[13:02]	Tobias Novi 	but why set a extra material just for hiding a ugly triangle
[13:02]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	Rusalka, you will see the other side of it. XD
[13:02]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Yes, it isn't usually a problem for most items.
[13:03]	Tobias Novi 	just don't render 3 vertices
[13:03]	Rusalka Writer 	Dang.
[13:03]	Nyx Linden 	<3 having example meshes to go with discussions of cost calculations!
[13:03]	Motor Loon 	I think the real question here is... should this arch really be 36 prim anyway?
[13:03]	Vivienne Daguerre 	This last item I present as more of an observation, results of an experiment, that if not an error can give us another tool to lower prim count.
[13:03]	Motor Loon 	¬∞Õú¬∞
[13:03]	Nyx Linden 	I'll have to spend some time looking at them in more detail to figure out what is going on here
[13:03]	Nyx Linden 	could I get copies of the arches please?
[13:03]	Vivienne Daguerre 	in this case smaller is better! :D
[13:03]	Vincent Nacon 	they're not the same.... I mean one has vines on it
[13:03]	Vivienne Daguerre 	and yes it should be, it is only 1032 triangles at the the highest LOD.
[13:04]	Vivienne Daguerre 	the vines are on the lower one, I can take those off
[13:04]	Drongle McMahon 	The physics cost of the 36-prim one is exactly half of the 55 prim one!
[13:04]	Vivienne Daguerre 	there you go, vines gone and now it is only 35 prims
[13:04]	Drongle McMahon 	Are they both triangles or decomposed?
[13:04]	Vivienne Daguerre 	and I used the same physics shape collada file
[13:04]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Something 1032 triangles came in at 36 prims? O.o
[13:05]	Nyx Linden 	please send in copies of the arches and we'll take a look at it :)
[13:05]	Tobias Novi 	however you turn it even 35 is WAY to much for what it is
[13:05]	Drongle McMahon 	If decomposed, was the number ov hulls & verts the same?
[13:05]	Vivienne Daguerre 	cannot recall
[13:05]	Vivienne Daguerre 	just seems very very odd to me
[13:05]	Tobias Novi 	how you want to atract ppl to meshes if a arche has 35 prims
[13:05]	Vivienne Daguerre 	I don't think I decomposed it
[13:05]	Bazz Fazz (vir.linden) 	Extra bonus topic: from a few weeks back:
[13:05]	Rusalka Writer 	Yep.
[13:05]	Vivienne Daguerre 	it is large
[13:06]	Bazz Fazz (vir.linden) 	"For a simple mesh, triangles in the same mesh and with the same material, when textured with a transparent texture, appear to be rendered in the order the triangles appear in the collada file. This can be used to vercome the alpha-sorting-glitch. Would it be correct to assume this is because the triangles are submitted to opengl in that order? If so, is the rendering code guaranteed to always submit triangles to opengl in the order they appear in the collada file, in particular for more complex meshes? Drongle McMahon"
[13:06]	Bazz Fazz (vir.linden) 	I have an answer from davep:
[13:06]	Bazz Fazz (vir.linden) 	The rendering order can and does change and is effectively undefined.
[13:06]	Bazz Fazz (vir.linden) 	So sorry, don't count on that behavior.
[13:06]	Motor Loon 	err
[13:06]	Motor Loon 	what?
[13:06]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	You need to divide by 4 on the number of vertices on each LOD to match a sculpty.. About.
[13:07]	Tiberious Neruda 	we really would like some way to overcome this problem
[13:07]	Vivienne Daguerre 	so the bottom line is, try it and you might get a lower prim result and be happy if you do.
[13:07]	Drongle McMahon 	Hmm. I was afraid of that. Thanks for the answer though.
[13:07]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Oy.... that is not cool.
[13:08]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) 	I thinjk the primage of the arches would go down quite a lot if you made the physics shape with like, 8 cube prims.
[13:08]	Rusalka Writer 	Mesh... the greatest undesireable technology ever. Avis excluded.
[13:08]	Pamela Galli 	Vivienne I have and I do
[13:09]	Nyx Linden 	alright thanks for coming out everyone
[13:09]	Motor Loon 	noo mesh rocks ass
[13:09]	Vincent Nacon 	aye
[13:09]	Vincent Nacon 	take care all
[13:09]	Geenz Cat (geenz.spad) 	'later Nyx
[13:09]	Nal (nalates.urriah) 	Thx Nyx and Vir
[13:09]	Vivienne Daguerre 	Alve, tried that... had to use 12 to approximate the shape, and this worked better
[13:09]	Nyx Linden 	see everyone next week!
[13:09]	Rusalka Writer 	Oy.
[13:09]	Bazz Fazz (vir.linden) 	bye folks
[13:09]	Pamela Galli 	what about the LOD shape question?
[13:09]	Drongle McMahon 	We know the physics weight can be reduced. That's not the point. The question is why they are different, because that may be important in other cases.
[13:09]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 	Thanks for the meeting Nyx and Vir.
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