Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2011.12.02

Simulator_User_Group
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== List of Speakers ==
ac14 Hutson 	Andrew Linden 	AnnMarie Otoole
Arawn Spitteler 	Draconis Neurocam	Jonathan Yap
Kadah Coba 	Kaluura Boa 	Kelly Linden
Latif Khalifa 	Leonel Iceghost 	Liisa Runo
Mike Denneny 	Pauline Darkfury 	Rex Cronon
Sahkolihaa Contepomi	Simon Linden 	Squirrel Wood
TankMaster Finesmith	Vincent Nacon 	
== Transcript ==
[16:02] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Heh...
[16:02] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Hey Andrew.
[16:02] Pauline Darkfury: There's some symptoms going around on LeTigre since the roll
[16:02] Mike Denneny: hey everyone
[16:02] Mike Denneny: how are you
[16:02] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: So Kelly, you didn't break sex beds, but you broke tables and chairs. ;)
[16:03] Vincent Nacon: muhaha!
[16:03] Kelly Linden: Ah. yeah, I probably broke it.
[16:03] Kelly Linden: I think I broke sex beds too
[16:03] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: ... LOL
[16:03] Pauline Darkfury: One of the abuse-temp-prim-lag-spam-rezzing systems is now spamming shouts across regions to identify resource abusers
[16:03] Kelly Linden: At least some of them. I give everyone an extra timer event and they panic.
[16:04] Pauline Darkfury: I was hoping to run up some basic tests of object rez type scripty stuff before the meeting, but didn't have time
[16:04] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Hey Simon. Kelly thinks he broke your table and chairs. :P
[16:04] Simon Linden: yeah, I was just giving him grief over that
[16:04] Draconis Neurocam: funny, none of my stuff broke, and i never adjusted anything
[16:04] Simon Linden: This places is over-due for some decorating in any case
[16:04] Pauline Darkfury: My thought was that the basic comms are not getting established when the child objects are rezzed
[16:04] Vincent Nacon: yeah, with some mesh, maybe?
[16:04] Andrew Linden: Thank you Vincent for the colorful sofas.
[16:05] Kelly Linden: pauline: yeah thats basically it
[16:05] Vincent Nacon: np
[16:05] Simon Linden: The bug is pretty esoteric, and relies on some specific events and the order they happen
[16:05] Kelly Linden: well, the problem is that for some scripts the extra timer event means they think they have timed out waiting for a response before they've had a rez event.
[16:05] Liisa Runo: no meshies untill v3 has less bugs than v1
[16:05] Andrew Linden: Pauline, you mentioned problems on the LeTigre channel. What are the symptoms?
[16:05] Pauline Darkfury: ahhh, are they getting an immediate timer event on rez or something?
[16:05] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
[16:06] Pauline Darkfury: Well, one of the temp prim abuse systems is now spamming shouts on channel 0
[16:06] Pauline Darkfury: And it seems specific to LeTigre
[16:06] Andrew Linden: What would a "abuse-temp-prim-lag-spam-rezzing" system be used for?
[16:07] Pauline Darkfury: The ones that give people "free" prims, so they have have 1000 prims on a 512
[16:07] Kelly Linden: Pauline: I think it shouts in a timer that fires before things are initialized from the rez event
[16:07] Liisa Runo: it is used to put 30000 prims on 400m2 parcel
[16:07] Pauline Darkfury: And lag the entire region to death in the process
[16:07] Pauline Darkfury: Yeah, that could fit, Kelly
[16:07] Kelly Linden: They set the chat channel from the on_rez parameter, but get a timer event before that is set.
[16:07] Mike Denneny: would you know anything about why once prims are linked they cause micro rotations on random prims that are at 180 degree rotations? Also how unlinking one prim from a set of 200 caused the other 199 to disapear?
[16:08] Andrew Linden: Hang on Mike. Ask that again in a few minutes.
[16:08] Mike Denneny: lol
[16:08] Mike Denneny: ok
[16:08] Draconis Neurocam: its because of the way quaterions are handled in decimal format if i remember
[16:08] Pauline Darkfury: Right, so on_rez is no longer guaranteed to be the 1st event
[16:08] Mike Denneny: 0_o
[16:09] Mike Denneny: thats not good for my new house system
[16:09] Mike Denneny: its essential
[16:09] Andrew Linden: So this temp rezzer system is misbehaving on LeTigre, in that it is shouting on the wrong channel?
[16:09] Kelly Linden: The bug is actually an extra bogus timer event, that does happen to fire as the very first event on rez.
[16:09] Andrew Linden: That is, it normally shouts but on a different channel?
[16:09] Pauline Darkfury: It's spamming shouts on 0 from every rezzed object every 60s!
[16:09] Kelly Linden: Yeah andrew.
[16:09] Pauline Darkfury: Not sure just how it normally behaves, but I'd assume so
[16:09] Kelly Linden: Because it rezes a new object every minute to create temp objects that act as permanant ones
[16:10] Kelly Linden: right?
[16:10] Pauline Darkfury: So, if you have a heavy server abusing neighbour, channel 0 will have a huge volume of constant shout spam
[16:10] Kelly Linden: Is that the system you are referring to?
[16:10] TankMaster Finesmith: [16:09] tro (maestro.linden): Hey Machess, we have a fix for SVC-7499 on Aditi.
[4:10:21 PM] Tank_Master: [16:09] tro (maestro.linden): If any of you are seeing odd LSL issues on Letigre, I would recommend checking to see if it's fixed on that aditi version (details in my Jira comment)
[16:10] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7499
[#SVC-7499] Poseball rezzing items are either not giving poseballs or rezzing balls in wrong positions
[16:10] Pauline Darkfury: Yeah, they spam-rez to steal prims beyond the parcel limit, give the appearance of non-temp on stuff
[16:10] Liisa Runo: ...so, even if it would spam some other channel, it would still be huge waste of resources, and people should prolly get rezzers that are scripted better, or rather just not try to cheat in prim quota
[16:10] Leonel Iceghost: is this extra timer event only in LeTigre?
[16:11] TankMaster Finesmith: i just caught that in the sl beta group
[16:11] Kelly Linden: Correct Leonel
[16:11] Pauline Darkfury: Yeah, these systems have always been abuse, just now they are chat spamming as well
[16:11] Andrew Linden: That system sounds particularly odious. It floods the region with shouts and listeners so that it can more effectively exceed the parcel limits with temp objects.
[16:11] Pauline Darkfury: Yeah, that's the size of it, Andrew
[16:11] Pauline Darkfury: Every serious estate bans them outright
[16:12] Liisa Runo: exept shouting sont make it any more effective than silent systems
[16:12] Liisa Runo: dont*
[16:12] Pauline Darkfury: I can speak for over 250 regions where they are not allowed, and repeated abuse of them would cause eviction
[16:12] Pauline Darkfury: That's before they started doing chat spam as well
[16:12] Andrew Linden: Pauline, what is a LeTigre region that is being affected?
[16:13] Pauline Darkfury: Hyland/192/32/128
[16:13] Andrew Linden: Ok thanks.
[16:13] Pauline Darkfury: That's just got one object doing it. Various others have been reporting much worse cases in the forums, SVC-7500, and some groups
[16:13] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7500
[#SVC-7500] Scripts running Riot after latest LeTigre Deploy
[16:13] Latif Khalifa: I have people from LeTigre with pitchforks after me https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7499
[16:13] JIRA-helper: [#SVC-7499] Poseball rezzing items are either not giving poseballs or rezzing balls in wrong positions
[16:13] Andrew Linden: Unfortunately I don't have any good ideas on what broke, or how to crack down on such temp rezzers. But if I get a chance I'll try to examine some of them to understand them better.
[16:14] Pauline Darkfury: And, looks like the table here has the same issue, but isn't spammy on failure
[16:14] Latif Khalifa: i sold ton of objects that got broke
[16:14] Rex Cronon: u just listen to the temp rezzers. hard tomiss them shouting;)
[16:14] Latif Khalifa: how come LeTigre got out with such a buggy script engine and was allowed to stay?
[16:14] Latif Khalifa: tons of content broke
[16:14] Latif Khalifa: why not just roll it back
[16:14] TankMaster Finesmith: to fix it
[16:15] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Well it is a test branch, no?
[16:15] Simon Linden: That table is giving me a bounds check error, fwiw
[16:15] Latif Khalifa: yaeh but i sell $5000 worth of stuff to someone and nothing works on their land, what am I supposed to tell them?
[16:15] Andrew Linden: Actually it is a "Release Candidate". We hope to find/fix/remove any bugs in beta testing before it hits RC.
[16:15] Kelly Linden: simon: which script? the chair.array one?
[16:16] Latif Khalifa: i'm supposed to tell them, tough luck you spent all that money, lindens are playing with your land
[16:16] Rex Cronon: latif. u give them the the nr from ll customer service
[16:16] Simon Linden: I asked it to do the "clean up" function (via a dialog after touching) and got it from the Chair script
[16:16] Pauline Darkfury: Might be a different bug on the table, was just a guess it was related since it rezzes child objects and there must be some sort of chat comms involved
[16:18] Jonathan Yap: I have a question when there is a gap in the discussion
[16:18] Pauline Darkfury: An acceptable fix for the spam-rezzing systems would be to fix the behaviour so it sets the owner on fire instead of rezzing, btw ;)
[16:18] Sahkolihaa Contepomi wonders if that rocking chair is Torley's.
[16:19] Liisa Runo: it is not, i made it
[16:19] Rex Cronon: why not have object send ownermessages;)
[16:19] Liisa Runo: the one torley made is jumpy
[16:19] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Ah.
[16:19] Latif Khalifa: What does it take for a RC chan to get rolled back ? How much content needs to be broken?
[16:19] Andrew Linden: Well, it sounds like something is wrong with LeTigre, but I'm not seeing a pattern yet, except that it seems to always have scripts involved.
[16:19] Pauline Darkfury: I'd suspect that the bug might have more drastic consequences for legit large-build rezzers. Is that the issue you're having, Latif?
[16:20] Liisa Runo: i thought the pattern is that on-rez is not the first event fired
[16:20] Latif Khalifa: No, I have the issue with LeTigre breaking most poseball scripts
[16:20] Latif Khalifa: you know the good ole MLP
[16:20] Andrew Linden: Ah, was that a known issues for LeTigre?
[16:20] Pauline Darkfury: ahhh, ok
[16:20] Latif Khalifa: fails to rez balls on LeTigre
[16:20] Vincent Nacon: in other words... you broke a lot of sex beds
[16:21] Latif Khalifa: yeah
[16:21] Latif Khalifa: sex beds and other stuff that rezzes poseballs
[16:21] Liisa Runo: i dont know, i just been paying attention diring this discussion
[16:21] Kadah Coba points to table.
[16:21] Leonel Iceghost: but beds can be reseted, some things may no reset
[16:21] Vincent Nacon: and I still have this quote, Kelly..
[16:21] Vincent Nacon: [16:50] tehKellz (kelly.linden): I have no comments on what I may or may not have done to any sexbed.
[16:21] Andrew Linden: I see. I'm just late to the party of understanding.
[16:21] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Only this time he admits to probably breaking them. :p
[16:22] Vincent Nacon: knew that came in handy
[16:22] Latif Khalifa: well i got a lot of angry customers on my door
[16:22] Latif Khalifa: that have spent a ton of money
[16:22] Latif Khalifa: on stuff that now doesn't work
[16:22] Andrew Linden: Ok... I think Mike Denny was asking something about rotation inaccuracies.
[16:22] Mike Denneny: yeah
[16:22] Mike Denneny: I just finished a house
[16:22] Mike Denneny: and when i link it
[16:22] Mike Denneny: prims at 180 either become
[16:22] Rex Cronon: isn't there anything u can do latif? something like a quick hack?
[16:22] Mike Denneny: 179.5
[16:22] Mike Denneny: or 180.5
[16:22] Pauline Darkfury: There's a good chance that float32 rounding errors could be involved, Mike
[16:23] Liisa Runo: is there any workaround?
[16:23] Latif Khalifa: Rex, nothing at all I can do. Except to tell them to ask lindens to roll back the broken code
[16:23] Pauline Darkfury: Quick hacks don't fix 100,000 broken products already out there, Rex
[16:23] Mike Denneny: Yeah its essential other wise people will think my prims aren't lined up.
[16:23] Kaluura Boa: Yeah... Avoid rotations...
[16:23] Liisa Runo: silly cat, cant avoid rotations
[16:24] Leonel Iceghost: that's why we need an "update" system
[16:24] Leonel Iceghost: things always broke
[16:24] Vincent Nacon: sure you can, just don't turn, walk backward
[16:24] Latif Khalifa: it's so broken script's timer() gets called even when you don't have any timers set yet. very hard to work around that
[16:24] Pauline Darkfury: Is the root prim at a nice round number for its rotation, Mike?
[16:24] Mike Denneny: I've not tried that
[16:24] Mike Denneny: but i believe the last prim selected was at normal rotation
[16:24] Mike Denneny: before i linked it
[16:25] Liisa Runo: i have tried, and yes, root is zero rot, no help
[16:25] Kelly Linden: Oh, another note about the poseballs/timer events: scripts compiled to mono should not be effected.
[16:25] Rex Cronon: declare timer event, and have it do nothing, or use a flag with it
[16:25] ac14 Hutson: dosent it only happen on certain prims? i ahve seen it before also
[16:25] Pauline Darkfury: I could imagine a failure mode if the root prim was at an odd rotation, then you link something to it. That's assuming that child prims get their rotation relative to root instead of world (not sure if that's a fair assumption)
[16:25] Andrew Linden: Mike do you have a repro recipe for that link rotation bug?
[16:25] Mike Denneny: Well I had about 200 prims
[16:25] Latif Khalifa: also not helpful, cannot go around recompiling people's scripts
[16:26] Mike Denneny: about 20 had to be at least rotated 180 degrees
[16:26] Mike Denneny: once the last prim was linked
[16:26] Mike Denneny: any prim that was at 180 degrees
[16:26] Mike Denneny: became the weird offset of +- .5
[16:26] Andrew Linden: Mike, how did you rotate them? Via the SL user interface? As a group?
[16:26] Mike Denneny: I had rotated them using the interface
[16:26] Mike Denneny: but they were checked in the object tab
[16:27] Mike Denneny: i manually went through and reset them all back
[16:27] Mike Denneny: to 180
[16:27] Andrew Linden: Mike, which viewer are you using?
[16:27] Mike Denneny: firestorm
[16:27] Mike Denneny: full release
[16:27] TankMaster Finesmith: firestorm is based off os LL 3.2 just before FUI came out
[16:28] Andrew Linden: Well, I guess I'd have to see it for myself to get a better idea of what might be going wrong. I'm not getting many clever theories.
[16:28] Mike Denneny: if had this happen for years
[16:28] Andrew Linden: Do you have an example of the finished product with bad rotations?
[16:28] Mike Denneny: but just now realized
[16:28] Mike Denneny: its not random
[16:29] Mike Denneny: it happens when i link the prims
[16:29] Mike Denneny: and only to 180 degree rotated prims
[16:29] Mike Denneny: yeah
[16:29] Mike Denneny: i could link my house right now
[16:29] Mike Denneny: and show you
[16:30] Andrew Linden: Well, gimme a copy, or rez one here for examination.
[16:30] Mike Denneny: I would need about 1466 prims
[16:30] Mike Denneny: lol
[16:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[16:30] Andrew Linden: oh I see.
[16:31] ac14 Hutson: :/
[16:31] Mike Denneny: well unless i go try to take a copy of just the house
[16:31] Mike Denneny: thats with furniture
[16:31] Mike Denneny: then i need 410
[16:31] Liisa Runo: nez it to the next parcel on north
[16:31] Liisa Runo: rez*
[16:31] Andrew Linden: Well, tell me where to find it. If I find time I might be able to go there and look at it.
[16:31] Jonathan Yap: I have a question for you Andrew
[16:31] Mike Denneny: I can ez it
[16:32] Andrew Linden: Ok. Go ahead Jonathan.
[16:32] Jonathan Yap: A while ago you were going to look into getting that group default Liability item changed--what happened with that?
[16:33] Andrew Linden: Yeah, that rings a bell.
[16:33] Jonathan Yap: It's in the Everyone role
[16:33] Jonathan Yap: I think you put it past a few people
[16:33] Pauline Darkfury: Yeah, that one should really default to only the Owner role, particularly since it can lose people the value of their land when selling, but also for the common case where people gripe about random L$1 charges
[16:34] Andrew Linden: I think that issue was re-raised in another channel recently...
[16:34] Jonathan Yap: Another channel inside LL?
[16:35] Simon Linden: I realize the right people might be difficult to reach, but that's mostly a product issue, so those folks are probably going to have to make a decision about it
[16:35] Mike Denneny: hey
[16:35] Andrew Linden: Yeah. I was just looking through email but couldn't find it. Must have been somewhere else.
[16:35] Kelly Linden: I'm not sure we were discussing specifically the default powers for the everyone role
[16:35] Mike Denneny: there is a 5min
[16:35] Mike Denneny: auto return
[16:35] Mike Denneny: anyway to switch that off?
[16:35] Andrew Linden: In the parcel over where you were? Lemme look.
[16:35] Mike Denneny: yeah
[16:36] Jonathan Yap: Kelly, that Liability being in the Everyone role causes some grief to people when they seen their balance has decreased for no reason they know about
[16:36] Andrew Linden: I bumped the autoreturn to 40 min. I'll have to remember to set it back later.
[16:37] Kelly Linden: Jonathan: do you know of a jira for that issue?
[16:37] Andrew Linden: Jonathan, do you happen to remember the jira number for that issue (for the record)?
[16:37] Jonathan Yap: will try to look it up
[16:37] AnnMarie Otoole: LOL It also allows payment OUT of member accounts who have no $$. I have on avatar with a negative L$400 balance.
[16:38] Latif Khalifa: yeah for search fees and stuff
[16:38] Jonathan Yap: svc-378 seems promising
[16:38] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-378
[16:38] Pauline Darkfury: That's kinda needed behaviour, Ann, there's no way for that to fail cleanly
[16:38] Pauline Darkfury: Can't charge only the group members who happen to have L$ at the time
[16:38] Pauline Darkfury: Can't make it just fail
[16:38] Andrew Linden: Can anyone think of groups that might break if that were changed?
[16:38] Squirrel Wood: Ha. That liability fee was the reason why I wanted people to be able to buy 0L$ stuff even with a negative balance.
[16:38] Jonathan Yap: The change would only affect new groups
[16:39] Pauline Darkfury: The request is just to change the default when creating a new group
[16:39] Squirrel Wood: because that used to not work.
[16:39] Pauline Darkfury: Not to change existing groups, that's up to the group owners to do that
[16:39] ac14 Hutson: i cant think of any groups that use it anyway.
[16:39] Pauline Darkfury: Some groups will actually want it set for Everyone (possibly)
[16:39] Kelly Linden: Andrew: We would only want to change the default for newly created groups.
[16:40] Pauline Darkfury: Should be near zero risk to make it Owner only on new groups
[16:41] Latif Khalifa: yeah
[16:41] Andrew Linden: Alright, I took yet another note about it. Maybe Kelly and Simon can remind me to bring it up in the right meeting next week.
[16:41] Mike Denneny: I think SL
[16:41] Mike Denneny: dis likes me
[16:41] Mike Denneny: I got it to rez at least
[16:41] Jonathan Yap: Thank you Andrew / Simon / Kelly
[16:42] Mike Denneny: Are you able to fix the auto return?
[16:42] Latif Khalifa: Jonathan, just don't propose more protocol changes please :P
[16:42] Andrew Linden: Yeah Mike, I bumped it to 40 min
[16:43] Mike Denneny: Alright
[16:43] Mike Denneny: some reason its saying 5mins
[16:43] Mike Denneny: but ill take your word for it
[16:43] Jonathan Yap: Mike, you probably didn't get a parcel update
[16:43] Pauline Darkfury: About Land doesn't refresh unless you close it then open it, Mike
[16:43] Mike Denneny: yeah i thought thats what I had done
[16:43] Mike Denneny: Its ok
[16:44] Mike Denneny: I'll go try linking things
[16:44] Mike Denneny: to show you the problem
[16:44] Andrew Linden: Oh you're right. I only set the nearby parcel, not the further one where you rezzed.
[16:44] Jonathan Yap: I have seen some parcel updates arrive many seconds after I have arrived in one
[16:44] Andrew Linden: OK, tell you what Mike, I'll look at your house at 17:00, right at the end of this meeting.
[16:44] Pauline Darkfury: Yeah, sometimes it can be slow for the viewer to get the new parcel name, etc when you move around
[16:44] Mike Denneny: alright sounds good
[16:44] Mike Denneny: thank you
[16:45] Andrew Linden: Someone was asking about LR (Linden Realms) on Tuesday.
[16:46] Andrew Linden: It looks like they opened that up yesterday or the day before.
[16:46] Jonathan Yap: I went in there last night
[16:46] Sahkolihaa Contepomi saw that on the login page.
[16:46] Andrew Linden: Yesterday I think.
[16:46] Jonathan Yap: Nice new features
[16:46] Mike Denneny: yup already figured it out
[16:46] Kaluura Boa: All we're interested in is when will we be able to play with the new functions...
[16:46] Pauline Darkfury: Yeah, there was a PR blog about it
[16:46] Jonathan Yap: Congratulations to the team who worked on that project
[16:46] Mike Denneny: we will have to be there together
[16:46] Rex Cronon: now we can collect crystals and sell them for L$?
[16:46] Mike Denneny: to observe how different links affect it
[16:47] Mike Denneny: it didn't freak out till i went further away
[16:47] Pauline Darkfury: Mmm, just how much L$ can people actually earn from LR crystals?
[16:47] Liisa Runo: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Featured-News/Embark-on-a-Quest-in-Linden-Realms-Collect-Crystals-Earn-Linden/ba-p/1262133
[16:47] Andrew Linden: I don't know about the timeline for opening up those new features. Some of them are locked down because we haven't figured out all the grief possibilities yet.
[16:48] ac14 Hutson: i got 33L when i tried it.
[16:48] Liisa Runo: can earn about 10L/second if you cheat
[16:48] Kadah Coba: LImit them to estate owners :o
[16:48] Simon Linden: Kaluura, we were talking about that yesterday ... there may be some parts that are easier to release than others
[16:48] TankMaster Finesmith: allow the features on wepon testing, and youll know in a few minuets :P
[16:48] Andrew Linden: Ha! Yes we would.
[16:48] Pauline Darkfury: Yeah, the abuse aspects of them need to be carefully considered, especially since the script owner can't audit what a script might have hidden in it (when no-mod)
[16:48] Kaluura Boa: And instead of punishing the scripters, please, think of punishing the griefers...
[16:49] Rex Cronon: what features?
[16:49] Jonathan Yap: In a brief visit I saw forced TP, forced hud attach, and forced animation
[16:49] Andrew Linden: Maybe that is a good way to go... 8-0
[16:49] TankMaster Finesmith: :D
[16:49] Pauline Darkfury: Some sort of permissions request around it, restricting the dangerous stuff to parcel owner only would probably work
[16:49] Jonathan Yap: Interesting how the forced hud did not show in inventory
[16:50] Liisa Runo: and naturally allow some of the stuff to be done for owner when not in X parcel
[16:50] Pauline Darkfury: Speaking as an EM, restricting it to EM-only is no good. Most of my tenants don't have EM rights, and I don't have rights to leave prims on their land (or want to have to take ownership of their prims)
[16:50] Squirrel Wood: If you are concerned about abuse potentials, require registration to be able to make use of the features ?
[16:50] Kaluura Boa: Yeah... Like Meshes... Premium-only.
[16:50] Squirrel Wood: like with Meshes where you have to complete a questionnaire
[16:50] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Meshes are not premium only.
[16:51] Latif Khalifa: they are PIOF
[16:51] Pauline Darkfury: Oh, and the other side of it is that I don't want random landowners being able to spam and force attach a HUD to me
[16:51] Kaluura Boa: Well, that's pretty much the same thing...
[16:51] ac14 Hutson: restricting to parcel owner i think would be enough.
[16:51] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Not really - I don't have to spend
[16:51] Pauline Darkfury: I need to be asked before someone can force-attach a scripted object to me
[16:52] Jonathan Yap: They will have to come up with some system where you click on a notice to give permissions to have these things affect you
[16:52] Latif Khalifa: Pauline, what's the point then?
[16:52] Liisa Runo: i want MY gadget to be able to TP ME no matter on whose parcel im on
[16:52] Latif Khalifa: you can already do that
[16:52] Kaluura Boa: I agree... Forced attachment should remain a RLV-only feature...
[16:52] Vincent Nacon: aye
[16:52] Leonel Iceghost: please don't use payment info... of please fix it so I can put my payment info first!
[16:52] Pauline Darkfury: It's not acceptable for random stuff to be force attached unless I've previously granted perms to that landowner
[16:52] Rex Cronon: lets see how this could work. somebody force-attaches a script to u that sucks all your lindesn, send obcene messages...
[16:52] Kelly Linden: Have a good weekend, I gotta run a couple minutes early
[16:52] Kaluura Boa: I agree with Liisa... What I do on myself is nobody's business... I want total freedom.
[16:52] Pauline Darkfury: The perms can be granted at the start, and they can block me from entering if I don't grant perms
[16:52] Jonathan Yap: take care Kelly
[16:52] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: See you, Kelly.
[16:52] Simon Linden: yeah, that's obviously not going to be freely allowed
[16:52] Latif Khalifa: take care kelly
[16:53] Squirrel Wood: Rex, L$ transfers require permission
[16:53] Pauline Darkfury: Take care, Kelly, have a good one
[16:53] TankMaster Finesmith: have a good weekend, kelly
[16:53] Rex Cronon: tc kelly
[16:53] Squirrel Wood: even a force attached script will have to ask for them
[16:53] Kadah Coba: I don't want to be flying around and having random parcel owners trying to attach things to me, but I would like to be able to do something with the new stuff with in my own region
[16:53] Jonathan Yap: Squirrel, not if you are subject to group liability :P
[16:53] Andrew Linden: One way to do it would be to force agreement to the "experience" terms when travelling to a particular destination -- a themed game for example.
[16:53] Leonel Iceghost: maybe an "allowed list" for objects could be created, so it automatically acepts one game that we always play
[16:53] Pauline Darkfury: I'm responsible at a basic level for any abuse caused by scripts I own. If any landowner can force-attach a script to me silently, there's huge abuse potential from that
[16:54] Squirrel Wood: group liability is an entirely different thing :)
[16:54] Andrew Linden: However, it would be nice to allow consensual games to be be played on the mainland.
[16:54] Vincent Nacon: yeah
[16:54] Andrew Linden: An opt-in mafia game, or assassins.
[16:54] TankMaster Finesmith: angery birds...
[16:54] Jonathan Yap: Walking through that portal and being force-TPd was very nice, good experience flow
[16:54] ac14 Hutson: Whitelist it then. when you enter a parcel you get a notification asking if you want to allow auto attach enhancment features for this parcel
[16:54] Rex Cronon: so, if u get killed the hitman gets all your lindens:)
[16:54] Squirrel Wood: perhaps you could make it so that before something can attach to you, you have to register for it on a LL website ?
[16:54] ac14 Hutson: if yes. it goes on the list. if no you cant get in or something
[16:55] Vincent Nacon: instead of forcing items into their face, just kindly provide and if they refused to wear it... deny them access
[16:55] Pauline Darkfury: Yup, when you enter the game area, you get a perms popup asking you to grant the landowner perms to temporarily attach a scripted object to you
[16:55] Andrew Linden: Right, like permissions you can give to Facebook apps, and revoke later.
[16:55] Leonel Iceghost: maybe it asks, and with an option to "remember this"... and then a list of accepted remembered games
[16:55] Pauline Darkfury: That perm then sticks until you leave that person's land
[16:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[16:55] Vincent Nacon: um... that was kinda bad example, Andrew.... the FB
[16:56] Jonathan Yap: What is important is that these new features are written, now hopefully some way we can use them will be figured out
[16:56] Pauline Darkfury: And yeah, you could have an "Always Allow" on a per-landowner basis
[16:56] Kadah Coba: FB apps gain access to your info though...
[16:56] Pauline Darkfury: It's the silent forced attach that gives me serious concern
[16:56] Squirrel Wood: What? The Privacy-is-not-an-option-book ?
[16:56] Vincent Nacon: can't really revoke them
[16:56] Andrew Linden: But they can also send you messages, which are a sort of intrusion.
[16:57] Rex Cronon: imo nothing should attach unless it asks and and if u confirm
[16:57] Andrew Linden: I'm thinking of the various games that friends on FB play that send you a ton of notifications/invites. You can ban those apps
[16:57] Jonathan Yap: Rex, you still have no idea what is inside what you are attaching
[16:57] Pauline Darkfury: The permission needs to stick while you are there, for subsequent attaches, probably
[16:57] Andrew Linden: although the ones I'm familiar with started spamming me without perms, and I had to turn them off
[16:58] Rex Cronon: at least i want the choice to attach it or not
[16:58] Kadah Coba: Its FB.
[16:58] Arawn Spitteler found this on NCI Scripters, can right click even be detected, yet? [16:56] i (kreechur): this group is for learning and teaching scripting, not asking for scripts :3
[16:58] Kaluura Boa: Yeah... Nobody complained because it's LL which is handling the LR regions... but on some random mainland region... I wouldn't agree...
[16:58] ac14 Hutson: it needs to be a whitelist though. not a blacklist. to prevent accidently flying over some idiots parcel and getting a black box attached to your hud so you have no idea whats going on
[16:58] Squirrel Wood: perhaps have a system like on the android market that tells you which permissions are required ?
[16:58] Squirrel Wood: And as long as you don't agree... no go
[16:58] Simon Linden: Correct Pauline, the idea is that you give permissions and enter the experience, and aren't nagged by a long series of little permissions
[16:58] Simon Linden: It's obviously a step up in trust
[16:58] Andrew Linden: There is some sort of agreement in the LR regions: You're willingly stepping through the portal to go there.
[16:59] Rex Cronon: sorry simon but those little permission aren't considered nagging
[16:59] Pauline Darkfury: Yeah, I don't want to become a llInstantMessage spam server as I fly around random bits of mainland and end up with a ton of silent-force-attach invisible HUDs ;)
[16:59] Andrew Linden: Of course no one wants to be surprised. There must be some way to agree to the experiences for user created content
[16:59] Vincent Nacon: unlike Carrier IQ?
[16:59] Andrew Linden: either as a "step through the portal" action, or a "I want to play this game" decision
[16:59] Jonathan Yap: Pauline, presumably once you leave the parcel that force attached something to you it would be automatically removed
[16:59] Arawn Spitteler: Is there a function, for detecting a barrier bounce?
[17:00] AnnMarie Otoole: So their life should be limited to being in the parcel.
[17:00] Pauline Darkfury: Yeah, the perm needs to be granted at the start of the game session, revoked at the end (unless you've clicked an "Always Allow this landowner")
[17:00] Vincent Nacon: no Arawn but you could use llGetPos
[17:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[17:00] Vincent Nacon: and parcel info
[17:01] Andrew Linden: I don't think arbitrary land parcels should be able to invoke an experience if you accidentally wander there
[17:01] Kadah Coba: If the permissions are only estate wide, per estate, and do not/cannot persist after leaving the estae, that would work for me.
[17:01] Simon Linden: I believe with LR it's revoked and the HUD attachment are removed when you leave the estate ... so it can carry over multiple regions
[17:01] Arawn Spitteler: If you bounce off an Access Line, there should be some signal available, for those who want it.
[17:01] Jonathan Yap: You might want a way to link a set of parcels to the same permission set
[17:01] Pauline Darkfury: estate-wide doesn't work. Mainland is one huge estate
[17:01] ac14 Hutson: you cant have it for jsut estate owners. that leaves out a large number of pepole who cant afford an entire estate to use it. plus any idiot can rent a sim for a week and try to scam pepole if they really wanted to
[17:01] Leonel Iceghost: if it is estate... only few people will be able to make a game =(
[17:01] Andrew Linden: if the experience kicks in when you "go there" then there should be some definite "entrance" to which you can decide to enter or not, knowing the experience is behind it before you make the decision
[17:01] TankMaster Finesmith: ive g2g, dinner
[17:01] Pauline Darkfury: Commercial private estates have many landowners per estate. While we try to avoid having abusive tenants, we do get them from time to time
[17:02] ac14 Hutson: i dont think estate limited is really a good answer
[17:02] TankMaster Finesmith: have a great weekend everyone
[17:02] Simon Linden: Well, I think you are all discovering why this hasn't been released widely yet
[17:02] Rex Cronon: tc tank
[17:02] Andrew Linden: Ok this meeting is over. I'm going to go look at Mike's linked object.
[17:02] Andrew Linden: Thanks for coming.
[17:02] Pauline Darkfury: Thanks, Lindens. Have a good weekend :)
[17:02] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Enjoy your weekend Andrew, Simon.
[17:02] Rex Cronon: tc andrew, simon, everybody else
[17:02] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: 1AM - time I went to bed.
[17:02] Vincent Nacon: sorry everyone... gotta take the sofa with me
[17:02] Simon Linden: Thanks everyone for coming and the good conversationSVC-378] Role 'Everyone' in new groups should not have ability "Pay group liabilities and receive group dividends"
Simulator_User_Group
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