User Experience Interest Group/Transcripts/2009-04-09

== Topic & Summary ==
User Experience Interest Group Discussion for April 09, 2009.
Topic: Reducing Frustration.
We discussed common sources of frustration for new and established Residents, and possible ways to address those sources and reduce frustration.
We first brainstormed ideas, many (but not all) of which could be grouped into 2 broad categories of frustration sources: dealing with griefers and abuse, and frustrations with using and managing inventory.
=== Dealing with Griefers and Abuse ===
* Difficulty seeing or selecting griefer/spam objects to mute or file an abuse report (e.g. small, invisible, and/or moving objects).
* Griefers banned from a parcel can still cause trouble from outside or above the parcel boundary.
* Difficulty determining who is causing the trouble (who bumped, shot, rezzed spam object, etc.)
* Difficulty determining the source of particles or sounds.
* New users not knowing:
** How (or whether) to file an Abuse Report.
** That siting on an object prevents being bumped/pushed.
** That they can mute an object or avatar to stop chat/particle/sound spam.
* Ability to teleport a griefer home from the pie menu (as can be done via LSL script).
* General lack of tools for defense and damage mitigation.
* Suggestion: Automatic spam detector and muter. If a person or their owned objects chat/particle/sound spam above a certain threshold, the viewer would mute and retroactively hide the spam chat from chat history.
* Suggestion: Muting an object or person should make their particles and sounds disappear immediately, instead of letting them expire. Griefer particles often have lifespans of more than a minute.
* Suggestion: If there are a large number and/or large sized particles being rendered, present an offer to the user to temporarily hide particles.
* Suggestion: Automatic anti-push/movelock. If your avatar is pushed or suddenly starts moving quickly (above a threshold), the viewer would automatically apply the "brakes" to stop your movement (currently bound to Spacebar).
* Suggestion: Ability to make your avatar "phantom", so other people would not bump into you.
=== Using and Managing Inventory ===
* For new users, difficulty buying and unpacking items from boxes.
* HUD objects being detached when you replace your outfit.
* Inventory folders opening when not wanted, e.g. when dragging items.
* Inventory window losing view of the selected item.
* Attach/Wear functionality not working reliably or as expected.
* Suggestion: Ability to view, add, remove, and edit an object's contents from within inventory.
* Suggestion: Double clicking objects in inventory should wear them, as with clothing.
* Suggestion: Ability to create tabs or new inventory windows showing only a certain folder and its contents.
=== Other ===
* For new users, not realizing how important the right-click pie menu is for interaction.
* General lack or poor quality of new user education about how the world and UI work.
* Avatars walk too fast.
* Jerky or unreliable sim crossings.
* Tooltip delay is too long.
* Suggestion: Ability to "stick" or "pin" certain floaters to stay open even when using Ctrl-W (Close All Windows).
* Suggestion: More information on the minimap, e.g. avatar names. Ties into radar integration.
* Suggestion: Isometric 3D minimap.
=== Links ===
* : Symbolic Links in Inventory
* : Group role "Eject and Freeze" does not include Ban option
* : Improve No-Push and Bumps-Hits log
* : AO (Adult-Only) abbreviation is confusing
* : Increase MiniMap zoom range, and magnify avatar markers at higher zoom levels
* Isometric Radar from classic game "Elite"
== Transcript ==
[15:12]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Today's topic is reducing frustration. What's frustrating about SL, and how can it be addressed?
[15:12]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Wow, good topic
[15:12]	Garn Conover: 	grifers :D
[15:12]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Ooh, just about everything!
[15:13]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	I way to send griefter home, not just ejecting them. :-)
[15:13]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Think about both new users, and oldbies. But probably especially new users, since they are less likely to know how to deal with the frustrating stuff
[15:13]	Charlette Proto: 	the inventory folder opening and the way focussed items are not in view!!!!
[15:13]	CodeWarrior Carling: 	lag
[15:13]	Dale Glass: 	well, on griefers, IMO the viewer needs to close up holes griefers can abuse
[15:13]	Techwolf Lupindo thinks back to his newbies times... 	Techwolf Lupindo thinks back to his newbies times...
[15:13]	Jacek Antonelli: 	What sort of holes, Dale?
[15:13]	Garn Conover: 	heya Dale :)
[15:13]	Charlette Proto: 	most noobs don't know what happens to items when they try to do anything (manage) with the inventory list
[15:14]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Funnily enough, my biggest frustration is the right mouse button bringing up the menu. I'm used to right mouse being used for camera and directional control, like in MMOs. After 5 years of SL, I still curse it every day.
[15:14]	Dale Glass: 	for instance, chat spam. Random jerk shows up, rezzes 20 objects who name themselves after people in the area, then they all start moving around to be hard to catch while shouting some long nonsense
[15:14]	Charlette Proto: 	thought those were going to be fixed about a year ago
[15:14]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	My first mistake, wearing a box I just got/purchise.
[15:15]	CodeWarrior Carling: 	yes.. the pie menu isn't obvious... my main frustration as a newb was not knowing how critical it was to doing things in here
[15:15]	Dale Glass: 	muting is not good enough, because by the time you muted and got rid of all the crap, the conversation got derailed and is 5 screens above the spam
[15:15]	Charlette Proto: 	yep should be able to OPEN a box in the inventory just like a folder
[15:15]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Getting a wearing item can be a really fusterating experence for newbies.
[15:15]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	a=and
[15:15]	Opensource Obscure: 	i'd like to change sky presets with 1 click instead of 5.
[15:15]	Charlette Proto: 	OK Tech simple solution contextual OPEN on inventory boxes!
[15:15]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Good, good stuff. Keep 'em coming, and then I'll pick a few that we can focus on more specifically
[15:16]	Garn Conover: 	Charlette that might work with inv #'s as well if u can keep av's in boxes
[15:16]	Geneko Nemeth: 	To create or buy anything, you need to have real money, even if it's just 4 cents USD. Especially so for people who don't live in western countries.
[15:16]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Think I'll add it to my small hacks list: replace right-mouse-button by <modifier-key>+left-mouse-button.
[15:16]	Dale Glass: 	More griefer abuse: you ban a guy, and he goes out of the banline or hovers above it, dropping stuff or shouting something, as well as possibly emitting particles
[15:16]	Garn Conover: 	the bump push log is a joke
[15:16]	Charlette Proto: 	any opinions on adding an OPEN to inventory boxes and BOX it when a number of the is selected?
[15:17]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	One can't open boxes on no-build areas. But the new user doesn't know that. So they furstrated on how to wear that new outfit they just got.
[15:17]	Dirk Talamasca: 	Frustration is changing an outfit and having all of your HUD objects stripped away as well. HUD Objects should only go away if an item in the folder you wish to wear is meant to replace it.
[15:17]	Charlette Proto: 	Dirk solution is above
[15:17]	Garn Conover: 	i like that Dirk :) good idea
[15:17]	Opensource Obscure: 	+1
[15:17]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Dirk, I use "take off items" on the folder just for that reson alone.
[15:17]	Dale Glass: 	Proposed solution: make it so that viewers automatically mute people in the parcel banlist. Admin bans somebody, everybody on the parcel immediately stops hearing or seeing them
[15:17]	Charlette Proto: 	OK everyone hates the way you wear boxes and have to rez them I suppose
[15:18]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	I hvae my huds in a different folders.
[15:18]	Opensource Obscure: 	i'd like a 'sticking' option for floaters. so that i can hit CTRL SHIFT W to close all windows, and still have let's say Minimap floater open.
[15:18]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Interesting
[15:18]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Dirk: that's not good enough though --- very often you equip a folder WANTING everything about your old av to disappear. So, what we need is an *addition* menu entry, that leaves HUDs alone.
[15:18]	Charlette Proto: 	so how would that be acheived Open?
[15:19]	Geneko Nemeth: 	It takes way too long for images to load, especially when you and the servers have an ocean between you, and especially on HUDs. Thankfully Orientiation Island ahs been discontinued.
[15:19]	Harleen Gretzky: 	Add to Outfit already does that
[15:19]	Charlette Proto: 	another WEAR thing in the inventory - double click on attachments to wear them
[15:19]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Add to Outfit doesn't take what you had worn off, so you can end up wearing two heads, for example...
[15:19]	Opensource Obscure: 	charlette: i don't really know, as i don't code - i'm not even sure that would be much useful to most people
[15:20]	Charlette Proto: 	*-*`````aaHahahahahahahHaaa`````*-*
[15:20]	Charlette Proto: 	nice one Geneko
[15:20]	Morgaine Dinova cackles 	Morgaine Dinova cackles
[15:20]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	I use "take off items" and "add to outfit" so my huds stay on. But one needs to set up folders to do that first.
[15:20]	Harleen Gretzky: 	Exactly but works for the case where you do not want everything replaced
[15:20]	Charlette Proto: 	sry I mean how would the user close all boxes except for a particular one - NOTHING TO DO WITH HOW MUCH I CODE OPEN
[15:21]	Jacek Antonelli: 	heh
[15:21]	Dirk Talamasca: 	Current quick solution is to keep HUD items in a folder then replace your current outfit, the go to your HUD folder and ADD to outfit.. It works but for new residents? That is frustrating
[15:21]	Geneko Nemeth: 	The tools used to translate the client is really ineffecient - and LL keeps them in-house.
[15:21]	CodeWarrior Carling: 	the pushpin metaphor?
[15:21]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Charlette: I think the idea is that you would mark certain windows that you didn't want to close, perhaps with a pushpin in the title bar next to the minimize button
[15:21]	Jacek Antonelli: 	And then Ctrl-W would close all of them, except the marked ones
[15:22]	Jacek Antonelli: 	It's an interesting idea, actually. And shouldn't be hard to implement
[15:22]	Charlette Proto: 	ah fiddly I thought we were dealing with noob stuff now
[15:22]	Garn Conover: 	Genko its called linguist mentors :)
[15:22]	Harleen Gretzky: 	Like Techwolf I always do take off items and the add to outfit
[15:22]	Geneko Nemeth is not a mentor, despite the group name 	Geneko Nemeth is not a mentor, despite the group name
[15:22]	CodeWarrior Carling: 	for noobs.. in the frustration area.. the idea of being able to open directly from inventory is a very good idea
[15:22]	McCabe Maxsted nods. I have a separate folder that I add after I replace outfits 	McCabe Maxsted nods. I have a separate folder that I add after I replace outfits
[15:22]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	There two different convoes/subject going on at once. Easy to do in text chat. :-)
[15:23]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I have a small side question about this area: how come that sometimes you equip folders recursively, and sometimes only the top folder equips and subfolders are ignored? It's too common and regular to just be bugs.
[15:23]	Harleen Gretzky: 	I have a Current Avatar folder so I can always revert back to something normal
[15:23]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, so I'm hearing some different categories of frustrations that we could go into. 1) Dealing with griefers and such; 2) Newbies not knowing how to use the UI / interact with the world; 3) Inventory management. Also some interesting other UI things, but those are pretty straightforward, so we don't need to discuss them in depth
[15:24]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Being able to open in inventory would help experence also. Just think about reducing the inventory to 1K instead of 50K by packing things into a box.
[15:24]	Garn Conover: 	Tech, my inv is 3k lol but most of that is av's
[15:24]	CodeWarrior Carling: 	good point Techwolf.. being able to pack things into folders.. perhaps a menu entry.. convert box to folder.. convert folder to box
[15:24]	Jacek Antonelli: 	3k? Lightweight. :)
[15:24]	Harleen Gretzky has never seen teh subfolders ignored 	Harleen Gretzky has never seen teh subfolders ignored
[15:25]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Speaking of spacenav... using a regular joystick, you'll go forward and then go back unless you uncheck a box to treat your normal joystick as a Spacenav.
[15:25]	Charlette Proto: 	the idea for packing is above - contextual BOX IT when more than one item is selected
[15:25]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Got me and another 2 people on JIrA
[15:25]	Harleen Gretzky: 	neat idea
[15:25]	Geneko Nemeth: 	(Also got me interested in UX, for some reason)
[15:25]	Charlette Proto: 	and the reverse OPEN for existing boxes
[15:25]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Garn, lucky you. When I was a newbie, I found yadni junkyard. :-)
[15:25]	Garn Conover: 	hehe
[15:25]	Garn Conover: 	i dont spend much
[15:25]	Armin Weatherwax: 	hm after a while using the spacenavi my avatar begins spinning - esp with avs near me - is that normal ?
[15:26]	Garn Conover: 	i dont get that Armin
[15:26]	Garn Conover: 	using flycam or regualr movement?
[15:26]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Armin, just bump the joystick. It self-calberates and sometimes is get off a bit.
[15:26]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Harleen: maybe 500 times for me over the years. It's not new. I keep all av components in subfolders, and regularly have to "Add to Outfit" on subfolders because they fail.
[15:27]	Aimee Trescothick: 	try calibrating it in the driver
[15:27]	Morgaine Dinova: 	And it's always the same: they either all fail, or none fail
[15:27]	Armin Weatherwax: 	im using the space navi - and after a while i begin spinning around the z axis. that happens more often when people are around
[15:27]	Harleen Gretzky feels lucky :) 	Harleen Gretzky feels lucky :)
[15:28]	Charlette Proto: 	space avie???
[15:28]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Armin, when I do a fresh config file, I have to click the set spacenav defaults to get the spacenav to work better.
[15:28]	Harleen Gretzky: 	Space Navigator, used in place of a mouse
[15:28]	Garn Conover: 	ive got mine flipped sideways
[15:28]	Geneko Nemeth has successfully derailed the topic yet again!!! 	Geneko Nemeth has successfully derailed the topic yet again!!!
[15:28]	Dale Glass: 	oh yeah, on the inventory. There should be symlinks in the inventory, so that you can have a single no copy object belong to different outfits
[15:29]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Dale++
[15:29]	Charlette Proto: 	that is a tech driver issue with the Space Nav not a UI prob
[15:29]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, let's focus the conversation on Dealing with Griefers for a while.
[15:29]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Ooo..nice idea if it can be worked out somehow.
[15:29]	Geneko Nemeth: 	But it's still a UX problem.
[15:29]	Charlette Proto: 	AR them
[15:29]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe
[15:29]	Harleen Gretzky: 	There is a JIRA for teh links ides: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-12548
[15:29]	Armin Weatherwax: 	ok, jacek
[15:29]	Jacek Antonelli: 	We've mentioned things like chat spam objects being hard to mute, so there's need for a better tool there
[15:30]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	In my experence, it just kiddies that don't know any better and think its a game where if they can do it, do it.
[15:30]	Dale Glass: 	problem with ARs is that it takes a while. And depends on somebody else (LL) who can take half an hour to respond
[15:30]	Charlette Proto: 	noobs don't know about AR because there is no iuntroductory video like I mentioned so many times
[15:30]	Garn Conover: 	better bump-pushes log
[15:30]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Likewise for avies banned from a parcel, sitting outside and still causing trouble.
[15:30]	Charlette Proto: 	AR them
[15:30]	Garn Conover: 	yea banline bouncers are fun to watch
[15:30]	Armin Weatherwax: 	my show only friends in chat also mutes all objects that not owned by the user
[15:30]	Dale Glass: 	I'd heavily prefer making it so that most people can remove annoyances by themselves, and removing ways to exploit SL
[15:30]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Let's just have a botton on the button bar, Stop Griefers, simple :P
[15:30]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehehe
[15:30]	Charlette Proto: 	bans on parcel are lame
[15:31]	Dale Glass: 	an user shouldn't have to wait for some admin to react if possible
[15:31]	Garn Conover: 	they are also limited are they not?
[15:31]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Charlette: ARs are okay, but they don't resolve the situation quickly, if at all
[15:31]	Armin Weatherwax: 	its not the best solution, but works to get at least the screen free
[15:31]	Harleen Gretzky: 	Maybe Eject Freeze and Teleport Home on the pie emnu
[15:31]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	For newibies, they are easy target due to this: Not knowing they can sit to prevent bump/pushes. Not knowing they can mute to stop spam. Not knowing they can hunt down objects and can mute said object from spamming.
[15:31]	Dale Glass: 	there's a limit to the amount of people that can be listed in a parcel banlist, yes
[15:31]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Some new tools would be helpful
[15:31]	Charlette Proto: 	display a MUTED BY xxx avies liek the ARC
[15:32]	Charlette Proto: 	introductory video Tech once again
[15:32]	Garn Conover: 	thats why i like banlink hehe Moar Powah!
[15:32]	Charlette Proto: 	every other game has a video for noob on the basics of the world
[15:32]	McCabe Maxsted: 	good point tech
[15:32]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	I need Teleport Home. I filed a jira where a eject/ban on a single sim still leaves the griefter on the sim.
[15:33]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, there's a thought. Better education for newbies? Built-in guides and videos?
[15:33]	Dale Glass: 	Techwolf, there's a LSL function for that
[15:33]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Heck yeah! But then you need to translate it into 10 languages...
[15:33]	Harleen Gretzky: 	300 in teh banlist max
[15:33]	Techwolf Lupindo whispers: Dale, does it work on a HUD? 	Techwolf Lupindo whispers: Dale, does it work on a HUD?
[15:33]	McCabe Maxsted: 	aren't eject, ban, etc already in the pie menu?
[15:33]	Garn Conover: 	Jacek that would be somethign to talk to Blue about for one
[15:33]	Garn Conover: 	yes they are McCabe
[15:33]	Charlette Proto: 	videos Jacek or links to Torleys vids which have searchable indexes now
[15:33]	Dale Glass: 	hmm, not sure what land functions do in a HUD
[15:33]	Dale Glass: 	but you could always place an object on the land, and have the HUD talk to it
[15:34]	Garn Conover: 	land functions need to be deeded
[15:34]	Harleen Gretzky: 	Just eject and freeze, if you choose eject and have ban powers then you get Eject and Ban also
[15:34]	Morgaine Dinova: 	What better facilities could we add to identify griefers?
[15:34]	Garn Conover: 	my bug fix Harleen yeay!
[15:34]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hrmmm. Auto-spammer mute!
[15:34]	Harleen Gretzky: 	Which I hate, no offense
[15:34]	Geneko Nemeth: 	"Locate Avatar"?
[15:34]	Charlette Proto: 	number of mutes on the day adn overall Morgaine
[15:34]	CodeWarrior Carling: 	you have been shot with a projectile owned by 'blah'.. if you don't mind being shot.. disable these warnings
[15:34]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Dale Glass avatar scannner is good for identing griefters.
[15:34]	Garn Conover: 	:P well i didn;t like ppl banning who didn't have the ability
[15:35]	Harleen Gretzky: 	I now have to give my hosts full ban powers
[15:35]	Jacek Antonelli: 	If the viewer detects a lot of chat coming from an avatar -- or objects owned by an avatar -- it could mute them, and also retroactively mute their text from chat history
[15:35]	CodeWarrior Carling: 	you are being bumped by 'blah'.. if you dont mind being bumped.. disable these warnings
[15:35]	Harleen Gretzky: 	Should be an optioin to do either
[15:35]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Charlette: good idea, although sucks if nobody else has muted them yet
[15:35]	Geneko Nemeth: 	But bumping happens all the time.
[15:35]	Dale Glass: 	btw, I have an "event list" in development. The idea is to have something like a scanner for particle sources and sounds
[15:35]	Dale Glass: 	so that you can figure out who the spam is coming from
[15:35]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Dale, I want that patch. :-)
[15:35]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Same could be applied for sounds and particles
[15:35]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Woot, Dale :D
[15:36]	Dale Glass: 	it's in my viewer as well (which is still old, getting there...)
[15:36]	Charlette Proto: 	yep you will find it is a good measure for those that don't use one day avies like serious griefers, and 100% solution for TROLLS
[15:36]	Aimee Trescothick wonders how often Lindens have been ARed for hitting people with trams in Nova Albion and Bay City	Aimee Trescothick wonders how often Lindens have been ARed for hitting people with trams in Nova Albion and Bay City
[15:36]	McCabe Maxsted: 	+1 Dale
[15:36]	Harleen Gretzky: 	JIRA to make just Banning an ability: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-11054
[15:37]	Garn Conover: 	Aimmee I've AR'd Blue so many times on purpose
[15:37]	Dale Glass: 	there's an attempt at a scoring system for particles. It tries to calculate how big an effect is, so that tiny things like coffee steam show up on the bottom, while the stuff griefers do that floods half the sim shows right on top
[15:37]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hrmm, also, it would be good if muting someone made their sounds and particles stop/disappear immedately. A lot of the griefer particles have long lifespans, so they stick around even after the emitter is muted
[15:37]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Jacek, that would make a good pjira entry.
[15:37]	Charlette Proto: 	but could you kill particles instantly Jacek? I agree
[15:38]	Dale Glass: 	an additional idea is to let the user mark textures as bad, and automatically supress/notify about particles that use them
[15:38]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I think it could be done, on a technical level
[15:38]	CodeWarrior Carling: 	that might be problematic... it would mean the client would have to attach ownership info to all the particles as it makes them
[15:38]	Aimee Trescothick: 	hmm, I haven't looked at the code, but I suspect particles have no concept of ownership
[15:38]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hrm.
[15:38]	CodeWarrior Carling: 	normal objects have no concept of ownership in the client unles you edit them
[15:38]	Aimee Trescothick: 	they're probably kept as lightweight as possible because of the potential volume of them
[15:38]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Then what about particles that move with emittors?
[15:38]	Charlette Proto: 	than it should be done since smoke eg vampires have very long lifetime too Jacek
[15:38]	Aimee Trescothick: 	hmm, true
[15:38]	Geneko Nemeth: 	It has to have ownership somwhere to have that work...
[15:38]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	I can't click on particials. So finding out who is spamming them can be tricky at times.
[15:39]	Dale Glass: 	IIRC, particle emitters have owners, particles themselves don't
[15:39]	Aimee Trescothick: 	but then particles can be targetted to any UUID
[15:39]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Well, it's not necessary for every single particle to store its owner UUID, just a number that points to the emitter, which stores the UUID
[15:39]	Dale Glass: 	so you mute somebody, emitter is supressed, but any particles that already where there remain
[15:39]	Dale Glass: 	but that could be fixed of course
[15:40]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Anyway, that's something that can be looked into
[15:40]	Charlette Proto: 	but particles can't be selected at all now
[15:40]	Jacek Antonelli: 	What other tools?
[15:40]	Charlette Proto: 	I like the kill particles idea even if it is limited to the avie beig muted
[15:41]	Charlette Proto: 	the WHOSE particles are they is a separate issue
[15:41]	Dale Glass: 	I don't think selecting particles is very viable. They appear and disappear at random, you'd end up selecting some random particle by accident sometimes (bad for newbies)
[15:41]	Armin Weatherwax: 	would it be possible not to disallow particles to target an avatar?
[15:41]	Aimee Trescothick: 	on the plus side, 1.23 can have particle emitters on HUDs, whole new way of griefing noobs that no one but them will see :D
[15:41]	Garn Conover: 	almosy like a 'kill al particle' thing? kills active ones but new ones will still show up?
[15:41]	McCabe Maxsted: 	why does it have to be just the avi? The viewer can prompt: "This many particles are being displayed. Would you like to mute particles for this visit?"
[15:41]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	New sim/parciel option. No particials.
[15:41]	Absinthe Fairy Wings in Pink 4.2.1 whispers: Geneko playfully ruffles Aimee's wings. 	Absinthe Fairy Wings in Pink 4.2.1 whispers: Geneko playfully ruffles Aimee's wings.
[15:41]	Dale Glass: 	particles are a client side effect, you can do pretty much anything you want with them in the viewer
[15:41]	Jacek Antonelli: 	You could fake in on the client side, Armin. So you wouldn't see the particles following you, but other people would
[15:41]	Charlette Proto: 	agree with Aimee ths can be offensive
[15:42]	Charlette Proto: 	get it Jacek - no variable on the server
[15:42]	Aimee Trescothick: 	heh, I was mostly joking, particle HUDs have a lot of potential besides that :)
[15:42]	Armin Weatherwax: 	i mean fist defensibve step would be to get the screen free to do further actions
[15:43]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hrmm, I wonder if it would be possible to build in a push-stopper or anchor, so that if the viewer detected your avatar got pushed/orbited, it'd automatically stop you moving
[15:43]	CodeWarrior Carling: 	ctrl-alt-shit-= works for me
[15:43]	Dale Glass: 	that's easy, Ctrl+Alt+Shift+= toggles particles
[15:43]	Garn Conover: 	like a built in movelock?
[15:43]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Exactly, Garn
[15:43]	Morgaine Dinova: 	From what Dale says about particle, how about providing a viewer switch in which all particles become a small swarm just above their owner's head? That would identify the source trivially.
[15:43]	McCabe Maxsted: 	I don't think many know about that shortcut though
[15:43]	Charlette Proto: 	yep especially one working on UPPERCUT and SIDESTEP Jacek
[15:43]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hehe
[15:43]	McCabe Maxsted: 	forming a giant particle arrow?
[15:43]	Jacek Antonelli: 	There's already a way to stop yourself from moving -- hold down the space bar -- but most people don't know about that, and you still have to have good reaction time
[15:43]	Garn Conover: 	Jacek, link it to the push/bump log possibiltity.. with option of 'sensor lvl'
[15:44]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Spacebar???!!!
[15:44]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yep
[15:44]	Garn Conover: 	yep
[15:44]	Dale Glass: 	griefers can be high above and quite far away, that would still require some searching with the camera
[15:44]	Garn Conover: 	even i forget that one
[15:44]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	I've been here for months and never heard of that one. (spacebar)
[15:44]	Dale Glass: 	and particles can be emitted by boxes with no owner nearby
[15:44]	Jacek Antonelli: 	It doesn't completely stop you in air (you kinda float down), but it does stop you from moving fast
[15:44]	Charlette Proto: 	don't think spacebar applies to UPPERCUT
[15:44]	Geneko Nemeth: 	But does it work when being pushed?
[15:44]	Garn Conover: 	yes
[15:45]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Well, from what I hear, they added that specifically as a way to deal with pushes and orbits
[15:45]	Garn Conover: 	long as your on the ground i beelive it stops u
[15:45]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Except they didn't tell anyone about it. :P
[15:45]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Dale: draw a beacon to the particle emitter
[15:45]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Lame!
[15:45]	Garn Conover: 	Jacek doesn't it fail in air?
[15:45]	Garn Conover: 	can't remember
[15:45]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Garn, it's not perfect in air. You drift down
[15:45]	Garn Conover: 	thats what i thought
[15:45]	Jacek Antonelli: 	But it does "put on the brakes"
[15:45]	Dale Glass: 	morgaine, there are particle beacons already
[15:45]	Charlette Proto: 	nice one a secret easter egg saviour revealed
[15:46]	Garn Conover: 	this is one of the things ive wanted lol
[15:46]	Jacek Antonelli: 	So it *should* be possible to automatically detect when you are moving too fast, and automatically put on the brakes. Or even try to move back to where you were.
[15:46]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	ctl-alt-shift-N will turn on beakens that can help tracking down spamming objects.
[15:46]	Geneko Nemeth: 	But what if I want fly assist?
[15:46]	Charlette Proto: 	agrees with Jacek
[15:46]	CodeWarrior Carling: 	what about a window like the sript error window.. I think that might be what Jaceks bump log idea is?
[15:46]	Garn Conover: 	as i said Jacek a possible sensor level? so activate if so much happens?
[15:46]	Jacek Antonelli: 	There could be a toggle or threshold, Gen
[15:46]	Charlette Proto: 	safe no push on avie rather than the parcel
[15:47]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Or maybe if I move without input it would lock me down.
[15:47]	Harleen Gretzky: 	Have to take off for RL, take care all :))
[15:47]	CodeWarrior Carling: 	that would tell you who is shooting or bumping you even if they are out of cam range.. a newb is not gonna be able to cam to find anything
[15:47]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Bye Harleen! Thanks for coming :)
[15:47]	Garn Conover nods... cuz if some1 is building maybe u might want complete lockdown 	Garn Conover nods... cuz if some1 is building maybe u might want complete lockdown
[15:47]	Geneko Nemeth: 	But that hurts physics-based teleporters (do these exist?)
[15:47]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Default safe for new users while experence one can turn it off.
[15:47]	Garn Conover: 	tc Harleen!
[15:47]	McCabe Maxsted: 	take care harleen :)
[15:47]	Jacek Antonelli: 	CodeW: There's already a bump log, but it's pretty useless. I'm thinking more of an automatic measure to stop you from being orbited, without you having to react
[15:48]	Dale Glass: 	orbiting isn't that much of a problem anymore, with most of the grid having push disabled
[15:48]	McCabe Maxsted: 	do orbiters still work the same way the did pre-havok4?
[15:48]	Garn Conover: 	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-11329 <-- there is the Jira i made Jacek
[15:48]	Charlette Proto: 	agrees with Jacek on push too fast with excessive force
[15:48]	Charlette Proto: 	would solve future probs too
[15:48]	Jacek Antonelli: 	E.g. If someone shoots or orbits you while you're chatting, by the time you escape out of the chat bar and press space, you're half a sim away
[15:48]	Garn Conover: 	no most are boken McCabe
[15:49]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Whoever fired off those 'B' beacons, do it again pls to see how the beacons look
[15:49]	Garn Conover: 	tho there are the odd few that work even better now lol
[15:49]	Charlette Proto: 	these tools are rampant atm (uppercut and crazy sideways step)
[15:49]	Morgaine Dinova: 	'B' particles I mean
[15:49]	Garn Conover: 	want me to walk around and set the grass on fire? lol
[15:49]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Charlette: I haven't heard of uppercut or sideways step. What are they?
[15:49]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Heh
[15:49]	Dale Glass: 	you can see plenty beacons on Garn
[15:49]	McCabe Maxsted: 	(so what's the main griefer tool now? particle spammers?)
[15:50]	CodeWarrior Carling: 	how about a 'disable Garn' preference item :-D
[15:50]	Charlette Proto: 	extreme physics kracks used by many trolls we talk about the with Andrew but no fix found as yet
[15:50]	Garn Conover: 	hehe
[15:50]	McCabe Maxsted grins 	McCabe Maxsted grins
[15:50]	Jacek Antonelli thinks Lex is gonna be mad when she sees her scorched lawn. 	Jacek Antonelli thinks Lex is gonna be mad when she sees her scorched lawn.
[15:50]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Heck yeah!
[15:50]	Dale Glass: 	main griefer weapon, hmm..
[15:50]	Charlette Proto: 	you get thrown about 20m is a split sec Jacek
[15:50]	Dale Glass: 	well at LW we get the sim crashed ocassionally
[15:50]	Geneko Nemeth: 	?!
[15:50]	Charlette Proto: 	can do a number of avies at onece
[15:50]	Armin Weatherwax: 	well, another thing about griefers is to find successful ways of social interaction. since griefing is a social problem which can never be solved by software
[15:50]	Morgaine Dinova: 	I think it identifies the footsteps, rather than the owner of the particle sources.
[15:50]	Dale Glass: 	most of the time it's the same boring self-replicating, particle spewing cubes
[15:50]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Ah, okay Charlette. Then an anti-push tool would still be useful
[15:50]	Aimee Trescothick: 	hmm, sounds like the old teledashes
[15:51]	Charlette Proto: 	and at waterhead every troll has one of them
[15:51]	Dale Glass: 	if they can't do that because build is disabled, they come and troll
[15:51]	Charlette Proto: 	no movelock does anything to it Jacek
[15:51]	Dale Glass: 	they try trolling in "creative" ways that don't directly violate any rule
[15:51]	Garn Conover: 	hey Jacek? an idea from soap about Bump/Push log (comment on my jira) make it so u can import it into an AR
[15:52]	McCabe Maxsted wonders, can we disable avatar-avatar collisions completely? 	McCabe Maxsted wonders, can we disable avatar-avatar collisions completely?
[15:52]	Charlette Proto: 	just as well the GTeam ban as soon as you mention the particular tool but they have spread really widely
[15:52]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	GTeam?
[15:52]	Dale Glass: 	say, tactics like saying the griefer is farting or picking his nose, arguing with everybody about everything, etc. You can't classify it directly as non-PG, or outright verbal abuse
[15:52]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Governence Team?
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I don't think so, McCabe. Physics and collisions are server-side
[15:53]	Morgaine Dinova: 	McCabe: you mean make the viewer automatically move you back to where you were before the bump?
[15:53]	Dale Glass: 	most of the time it's just cubes though, and that can be dealt with in a technical manner
[15:53]	Dirk Talamasca: 	You find them in G Spots
[15:53]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Dirk :P
[15:53]	Charlette Proto: 	I'm too well known to be given one so I have no idea how they actually work
[15:53]	CodeWarrior Carling: 	maybe make the viewer rez a shield around you
[15:53]	Charlette Proto: 	Giv yes Geneko noe Geneko Team hehe
[15:53]	Dale Glass: 	shields are mostly useless
[15:53]	Techwolf Lupindo looks at the sim rating. "Ok. it is mature..:-)' 	Techwolf Lupindo looks at the sim rating. "Ok. it is mature..:-)'
[15:53]	Charlette Proto: 	GOV*
[15:53]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I think it's like to make avatars be albe to walk right throught avatars.
[15:54]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Having all physics and movement calculated on the server is pretty frustrating to newbies if you lag real big.
[15:55]	Dale Glass: 	well hard to do it in any other way really
[15:55]	Geneko Nemeth: 	You want to walk there but you walk past and get bumped back..
[15:55]	Charlette Proto: 	yes Geneko and it makes the jerky moves too due to lag
[15:55]	Dale Glass: 	otherwise you'd have to trust the client, and huge griefing potential there
[15:55]	McCabe Maxsted: 	yeah
[15:55]	Geneko Nemeth: 	well, you could have the viewer to tell the server where to stop and the server will handle the movement.
[15:55]	McCabe Maxsted really likes jacek's idea 	McCabe Maxsted really likes jacek's idea
[15:56]	Geneko Nemeth: 	But LL decide to make the server handle keystrokes directly... which kinda makes joystick movement hack-y.
[15:56]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I'm not giving you a raise on your Imprudence work!
[15:56]	McCabe Maxsted: 	*whimper*
[15:56]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe
[15:56]	Dale Glass: 	movement doesn't work that way currently, you say you want to walk forward, server says how far you moved
[15:56]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, okay... you can have a 5% raise. Let's see, 5% of 0 is... hrm... carry the 1...
[15:56]	Charlette Proto: 	you get extra download quota McCabe
[15:56]	McCabe Maxsted: 	woohoo
[15:57]	Charlette Proto: 	and free lag
[15:57]	McCabe Maxsted was just thinking how I've never actually pushed another avatar, except to bug 'em 	McCabe Maxsted was just thinking how I've never actually pushed another avatar, except to bug 'em
[15:57]	McCabe Maxsted: 	(not that I would anyone here mind you)
[15:57]	Garn Conover gives McCabe a raise of one cookie 	Garn Conover gives McCabe a raise of one cookie
[15:57]	Charlette Proto: 	BTW some chat lag here even though the server stats are 100%
[15:57]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Okay, let's set aside griefing and talk about helping new users understand beter how to interact with the UI and the world
[15:58]	Charlette Proto: 	does McCabe get paid in cookies?
[15:58]	Jacek Antonelli: 	We had examples like not knowing how to open boxes, not knowing how important th Pie menu was, etc.
[15:58]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Turn on toltips by default?
[15:58]	Garn Conover: 	before H4 i was natorious for pushing ppl into the river in Kuula
[15:58]	McCabe Maxsted: 	when my boss isn't being a cheapskate :P
[15:58]	CodeWarrior Carling: 	this probably involves server changes.. but what if there were a 'read only' mode for an avatar.. where noone sees you but you can walk around phantom.. it would be the same as just camming around without having to learn how to just cam around first... and if you try to do anything the viewer tells you yuou are in phantom mode and warns you that coming out of that mode leaves you open to things you might not know how to deal with yet
[15:58]	Garn Conover: 	there is actually a movelock named after me floating around lol
[15:58]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Anther fustration, the sim rataings. Most think mature mean anything can be worn. But many sim have the mature set but don't allow adult like items. This can be fusterating for admins trying to explain they can not rez those flying things.
[15:59]	Geneko Nemeth: 	We do have AO... err.. Adult-only now.
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Is this something that has to be addressed through improved education? Or can we improve the UI to give the user some clues?
[15:59]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Bumping is quite a problem in popular music events. They're always laggy because of all the people, so when a new person TPs in, they see nobody and just run straight for the stage ---- scattering dozens of people they can't see on the way.
[15:59]	Garn Conover: 	Tech im sure that will all get changed with the new adult settings
[15:59]	CodeWarrior Carling: 	read only mode would probably allow events to scale way higher than they can now
[15:59]	Aimee Trescothick: 	mm, speaking of which .... http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4091
[15:59]	Charlette Proto: 	we have new Adult classificatin comming Techwoolf and a bunch of forums for these issues
[16:00]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Oh dear...that expains a wiered convo the othere day. AO...animations overide....or is it?
[16:00]	McCabe Maxsted: 	wow
[16:01]	McCabe Maxsted: 	they're really calling it AO?
[16:01]	Aimee Trescothick: 	yup
[16:01]	McCabe Maxsted: 	the lindens don't log into their own grid, do they
[16:01]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe
[16:01]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Yeah, that's what they call it internally, so that's what all the Lindens know it by
[16:01]	Armin Weatherwax: 	very prudent
[16:01]	Charlette Proto: 	not the Lindens that make decissions McCabe
[16:01]	Geneko Nemeth: 	They abbervated it as AO in their blog post but changed it only after people commented on it.
[16:01]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Obviously, the people who came up with it don't use SL enough to realize why that acronym would be confusing to Residents
[16:02]	Aimee Trescothick: 	had several conversations so far with Lindens that have referred to "the AO stuff that will be in the next viewer" etc. and gone "huh, what?"
[16:02]	Charlette Proto: 	should be AV to include a ref to violence
[16:02]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Or maybe they would think people just would get along with it quickly...
[16:02]	Aimee Trescothick: 	they're using the AO name for it all over the place
[16:02]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Yes, we need to be able to change the default animations so we can get rid of AOs.
[16:02]	Geneko Nemeth: 	But I want Animation Customization in client, waaaaah~
[16:03]	Charlette Proto: 	we have talked about that at length Techwolf
[16:03]	Aimee Trescothick: 	and while I'm plugging JIRAs, a shameless plug for http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-12748 :)
[16:03]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I guess in the Linden's defense, "AO" is the ESRB (American video game ratings board) classification for games that are only suitable for adults 21+
[16:03]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Bah, no space invaders :P
[16:03]	Charlette Proto: 	true jacek
[16:04]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Isn't 18+?
[16:04]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Oh, yeah, could be 18+
[16:04]	Garn Conover chuckles 	Garn Conover chuckles
[16:04]	Armin Weatherwax: 	pacman instead of space invaders ?
[16:04]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Which is weird since Mature is ESRB's 17-...
[16:04]	Geneko Nemeth: 	*17+
[16:04]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Oh, they are space invaders when magnified, hehe :-))
[16:04]	Aimee Trescothick was thinking about Pacman for the other skin 	Aimee Trescothick was thinking about Pacman for the other skin
[16:04]	Aimee Trescothick: 	or maybe asteroids
[16:05]	Jacek Antonelli: 	There are practically no games given the AO rating. The game creators keep it toned down because an AO rating would kill sales
[16:05]	Garn Conover: 	for sure
[16:05]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Um, but anyway. We're a bit off track
[16:05]	Charlette Proto: 	GTA4
[16:05]	Jacek Antonelli: 	But heck, it's the end of the hour, so let's be silly
[16:05]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Does "I walk too fast" count as a frustration source?
[16:06]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hehe
[16:06]	Geneko Nemeth: 	No really - avatars walk at 3m/s.
[16:06]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Too fast?
[16:06]	Charlette Proto: 	walk back and forth too Geneko
[16:06]	Geneko Nemeth: 	So the animation looks too fast too.
[16:06]	Charlette Proto: 	like the walk in one spot AO - hate that thing
[16:06]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	I don't think we can be on track. As anyone that tried to run along the SecondLife Rail Road can testify too. Sim crossing are another new user fustration.
[16:06]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I wonder if that can be changed client-side
[16:06]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehehe Tech
[16:06]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Sim-crossing... argh! Why can't it be seamless?
[16:07]	Charlette Proto: 	wipe the dog poo from my boots and even pick with one hand
[16:07]	Charlette Proto: 	sim crossings are more of an Andrew thing
[16:07]	Charlette Proto: 	or could the viewer smooth them
[16:08]	Charlette Proto: 	eg not power ahead when server data stops the way it does now
[16:08]	Armin Weatherwax: 	hm. would it be possible to replace the dots by numbers and show the numbers together wirth names in an openable part of the mini-map?
[16:08]	Aimee Trescothick: 	sim crossings are a miracle they work at all if you look at what happens
[16:08]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Gegegegege...
[16:08]	Charlette Proto: 	agree with Aimee
[16:08]	Garn Conover: 	Armin like a radar?
[16:08]	Armin Weatherwax: 	yes, like a radar
[16:09]	Charlette Proto: 	I want info on the minimap like Aimee says
[16:09]	Dirk Talamasca: 	I want the space invaders to be shootable
[16:09]	Charlette Proto: 	sry Aimin
[16:10]	Garn Conover: 	plus better 'range' selection
[16:10]	Armin Weatherwax: 	i think the radar at the minimap would be the right place. maybe to tear off, but usually together
[16:10]	Garn Conover: 	lmao Dirk
[16:10]	Charlette Proto: 	minimap is better than any of the avie radars out there
[16:10]	Aimee Trescothick: 	the space invaders are shootable :D
[16:10]	McCabe Maxsted agrees with armin 	McCabe Maxsted agrees with armin
[16:10]	CodeWarrior Carling: 	this probably doesn't affect most people.. but I want the viewing cone on the mini map to be more distinct
[16:10]	Aimee Trescothick: 	as long as you have a gun and rez perms ;)
[16:10]	Garn Conover: 	also we talked about this before.. join map and minimap into mimizied and full sized
[16:10]	Charlette Proto: 	contextual info on minimap please
[16:11]	Armin Weatherwax: 	hm. yeah, and shootable sounds good, too :)
[16:11]	McCabe Maxsted: 	I would love love LOVE to do that
[16:11]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Ah, that reminds me of an idea I had, CodeW. I wanted the viewer code to have a line down the middle so you could see which way you were pointed easily. The idea came to be while I was sailing
[16:11]	McCabe Maxsted: 	but I've got other things taking all my energy
[16:11]	McCabe Maxsted: 	if someone else wants to work on the patch....
[16:11]	Aimee Trescothick: 	I'm poking about with all sorts of stuff in the minimap at the moment
[16:11]	Garn Conover: 	any1 seen that desktop game that u can destroy your computer screen with flame throwerss hammer termits and such? lol
[16:11]	Aimee Trescothick: 	next on the list is make panning work
[16:11]	Dirk Talamasca: 	Map expandable so you can hide the legend if you wish
[16:11]	CodeWarrior Carling: 	would be nice to be able to click on a green dot on the mini map and say.. who is this
[16:11]	Charlette Proto: 	you have time for sailing Jacek?
[16:11]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe
[16:11]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Not any more!
[16:12]	CodeWarrior Carling: 	if you own a sim.. and someone comes into it.. you usually wonder who it is
[16:12]	Charlette Proto: 	precosely CW
[16:12]	McCabe Maxsted: 	you can in 1.23 right?
[16:12]	Geneko Nemeth: 	You can open profiles from the minimap in trunk.
[16:12]	Aimee Trescothick: 	you can hover the mouse over them for a tooltip with the name
[16:12]	Geneko Nemeth: 	And it displays the name in a tooltip as well, but tooltips in SL takes too long to show up...
[16:12]	CodeWarrior Carling: 	cool beans
[16:12]	McCabe Maxsted: 	can you throw grenades?
[16:12]	Charlette Proto: 	kill all the laggy avie scanners that work serverside since avie info is in the viewer anyway
[16:12]	McCabe Maxsted: 	or launch air strikes?
[16:13]	Aimee Trescothick: 	hmm, how long do your tooltips take?
[16:13]	McCabe Maxsted: 	what I'm really asking is: can we play Worms with our minimap, and if no why not?
[16:13]	CodeWarrior Carling: 	today ze tooltip.. tomorrow ze banlist!
[16:13]	Geneko Nemeth: 	500ms?
[16:13]	Charlette Proto: 	hehe McCabe
[16:13]	Aimee Trescothick: 	that's too long?
[16:13]	Geneko Nemeth: 	I want it to be displayed immediately.
[16:13]	Aimee Trescothick: 	hmm, you have to have some delay
[16:13]	Aimee Trescothick: 	otherwise they get in the way all the time
[16:14]	Armin Weatherwax: 	another thing i would find useful for the mini map is a z-axis slider
[16:14]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Okay, it's actually 700ms and settable.
[16:14]	Charlette Proto: 	needs a delay Geneko but 500ms is way too long
[16:14]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Since you can see things in the adjacent sim, can the viewer (internally) request info for a minimap of the adjacent sim? (If it wished to do so)
[16:14]	McCabe Maxsted waves to star :) 	McCabe Maxsted waves to star :)
[16:14]	Geneko Nemeth: 	Is there a way to sit tooltip time for in-world objects?
[16:15]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Separate from tooltips on other things?
[16:15]	McCabe Maxsted: 	we have
[16:15]	Aimee Trescothick dreams of giving the minimap an isometric view 	Aimee Trescothick dreams of giving the minimap an isometric view
[16:15]	StarSong Bright: 	ah hre you are
[16:15]	Geneko Nemeth: 	It is separate now, I changed the UI delay option but the in-world tooltips still takes a bit to show up.
[16:15]	Aimee Trescothick: 	Elite had it in the 80s, why can't we
[16:16]	McCabe Maxsted tosses an LM 	McCabe Maxsted tosses an LM
[16:16]	Charlette Proto: 	agree with Aimee on showing height (iso)
[16:17]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	I like to left-click on a dot in the mini-map and be able to eject with confermation on who. Good for sudden particial attacts and whatnot.
[16:17]	Charlette Proto: 	but can we finally agree on the inventory popping folders open and hiding the item in focus - that is scarry for noobs
[16:18]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Popping folders is a design from hell. Torture is not good enough fore the inventor.
[16:18]	Charlette Proto: 	never seen anything as anoying as the behaviours of the inventory list
[16:18]	Jacek Antonelli: 	heh
[16:18]	CodeWarrior Carling: 	totally charlette
[16:18]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	Yes. After doing a search, when I clear it out, I have a huge list where folders poped open.
[16:18]	Aimee Trescothick: 	http://static.gamesradar.com/images/mb/GamesRadar/us/Features/2008/07/Open%20Ended%20Games/PCZ195.upfeatin.elite--article_image.jpg
[16:18]	Charlette Proto: 	yep how can you expect peeps to organise thing when the list behaves like a wild bag of tricks
[16:19]	StarSong Bright: 	i agree, why cant we pop a window inside a folder like any normal modern file system? or search only inside that folder
[16:19]	CodeWarrior Carling: 	I mean.. I *know* it's going to move the friggin target folder around... and I *still* find it a manual challenge to control it
[16:19]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	I WANT TO BE ABLE TO FLOAT WINDOWS TO THE SECOND MONITOR.
[16:19]	Armin Weatherwax: 	aimee.... good old times on c64 :)
[16:20]	Techwolf Lupindo fixes his caps locks key... 	Techwolf Lupindo fixes his caps locks key...
[16:20]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Clearly LL's "QA" doesn't deal with ergonomic issues.
[16:20]	Aimee Trescothick: 	:)
[16:20]	McCabe Maxsted: 	hehe
[16:20]	Charlette Proto: 	besides extending the inventory context menu to include OPEN and BOXIT as well as the doubleclick wear for attachments- I think these are obvious
[16:20]	Aimee Trescothick: 	double-click wear is one of the patches I count most useful :)
[16:20]	Charlette Proto: 	Techwolf that was last week
[16:20]	CodeWarrior Carling: 	what about an open folde in it's own inventory window.. but not have it show any parents above
[16:21]	StarSong Bright: 	ah i don tthink it can do that charlette, most of that info is not available until an item is rezzed in world
[16:21]	Aimee Trescothick: 	drives me nuts every time I use a standard viewer without it
[16:21]	Jacek Antonelli: 	We need to grab that one, McCabe
[16:21]	Techwolf Lupindo: 	I only found out about this UNIX meeting when searching for something else on the wiki. Why isn't there a calender of in world mettings?
[16:21]	Garn Conover: 	double click wear? :O
[16:21]	McCabe Maxsted nods virgorously 	McCabe Maxsted nods virgorously
[16:21]	Garn Conover: 	i keep trying to do that!
[16:21]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Techwolf: more accurately, what you want is sub-panes to be detachable from the application frame. It's the O/S than then lets you move to a 2nd monitor.
[16:21]	Geneko Nemeth: 	There are too much of them?
[16:22]	Aimee Trescothick: 	it was turned down by LL
[16:22]	Garn Conover: 	pffft
[16:22]	Charlette Proto: 	isn't there a way to 'fake rezz' it would be great for inventory previews as well Star
[16:22]	Garn Conover: 	we would love it Aimee :)
[16:22]	McCabe Maxsted: 	I added us to https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Office_Hours
[16:22]	Charlette Proto: 	good move McCabe
[16:22]	Garn Conover: 	can u get away with that w/o being a linden?
[16:23]	Morgaine Dinova: 	Excellent
[16:23]	Aimee Trescothick: 	I seem to remember the reasoning was that as it has to have double-click takeoff as well to be correct (and does) it's too easy for noobs to end up nekkid by mistake
[16:23]	Aimee Trescothick: 	but don't quote me on that, I'm not sure
[16:23]	McCabe Maxsted just updated the note that was already there for ben's OH 	McCabe Maxsted just updated the note that was already there for ben's OH
[16:23]	StarSong Bright: 	noobs end up naked regardless, some seem to prefer it if my sim is any indicator lol
[16:23]	Garn Conover: 	hehe
[16:23]	McCabe Maxsted: 	haha
[16:23]	Jacek Antonelli: 	hehehe
[16:24]	Charlette Proto: 	but doubleclick to wear attachments just like clothes would give consistency eg with skirts jewelerry etc
[16:24]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I agree