Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2012.10.16

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== List of Speakers ==
Andrew Linden 	Barrington DeSantis
Chieron Tenk 	Kelly Linden
MartinRJ Fayray 	Motor Loon
Nalates Urriah 	NeoBokrug Elytis
Qie Niangao 	Simon Linden
Theresa Tennyson	Tiberious Neruda
== Transcript ==
[12:04] Simon Linden: I used to have an orca swimming around but it got stuck a few times
[12:04] Motor Loon: Ey Andrew
[12:04] Nalates Urriah: May be next week... I can have one of mine in wander mode.
[12:05] Andrew Linden: Hello everyone.
[12:05] Nalates Urriah: Hi
[12:05] Barrington DeSantis: Hi Andrew
[12:05] Theresa Tennyson: Hello!
[12:05] Simon Linden: I can get started with the release news ...
[12:05] Andrew Linden: Go ahead Simon.
[12:06] MartinRJ Fayray: Hello
[12:06] Simon Linden: There was an update to the main channel this morning, which was relatively minor. It has an an improved database query that should help with the back-end system load
[12:07] Simon Linden: So far things have been nice and quiet with no reports of problems
[12:07] Simon Linden: Tomorrow there will be updates to the RC channels
[12:08] Simon Linden: The new code isn't extensive - it's also some internal or back-end changes to the system, so no visible changes are expected
[12:09] Simon Linden: That's it for my news
[12:09] Andrew Linden: Simon, the "new code" is about the RC updates? or the aforementioned update to the main channel today?
[12:09] Simon Linden: I meant the new code in RC
[12:10] Andrew Linden: Ok, so all the RC's will get the same code?
[12:10] Andrew Linden: That is, only one RC codebase on deck?
[12:10] Simon Linden: Let's see ... LeTigre is the most interesting, I think there's a minor update to the Havok library there
[12:10] Motor Loon: Oskar wrote magnum would remain unchanged
[12:10] Motor Loon: minor update to havok = more mesh vehicle problems ?
[12:10] Simon Linden: Bluesteel has code that's almost the same as the main channel, with some OS-level configuration changes that shouldn't be visible to anyone
[12:11] Simon Linden: Magnum has the same code as before ... it has some changes that will eventually let us run better on new hardware, but again isn't a visible feature change
[12:11] Andrew Linden: Ah right, that's Falcon's work, which is mostly about getting our servers to build under VS2010 and also the autobuild system which is currently used on the viewer.
[12:12] Simon Linden: Right, that will be in LeTigre
[12:12] Andrew Linden: All the news I've got is that I'm still fixing some bugs in my intrestlist work.
[12:13] Andrew Linden: This one bug I noticed today is actually in the main codebase...
[12:13] Theresa Tennyson: I checked out Ahern after last Friday and I had major problems with things not appearing when I was on my motorcycle.
[12:13] Andrew Linden: when you cross a region boundary then your connection to the region you were just in will get reset after about 60 seconds.
[12:13] NeoBokrug Elytis: Does it have to do with object child prim positional updates?
[12:14] Andrew Linden: I'm currently trying to figure that out because it is affecting my work with interestlists.
[12:14] Andrew Linden: Thanks for the info Theresa. I'll try to check out vehicles later today.
[12:15] Kelly Linden: I fixed this yesterday - https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7870 - but it is a viewer bug so is in the general backlog of maint viewer fixes at the moment.
[12:15] Andrew Linden: Ok table is open, I think.
[12:15] Motor Loon: hm always assumed that was expected behavior
[12:16] Motor Loon: good fix though
[12:16] Nalates Urriah: Any news on the Network/stale computer problem?
[12:16] Nalates Urriah: stale server
[12:17] NeoBokrug Elytis: Is that also related to the Capabilities error?
[12:17] Simon Linden: Do you mean not seeing neighbor regions, Nal?
[12:17] Nalates Urriah: No... the one where Toysoldier and event managers were seeing sudden massive lag with losts of odd stats.
[12:18] Nalates Urriah: lots of^
[12:18] Simon Linden: Right, that one - no news on that problem
[12:18] Nalates Urriah: :)
[12:18] Motor Loon: LeTigre havok "minor changes" means a new havok version = more problems for mesh vehicles?
[12:19] Simon Linden: I'd prefer to have less problems, but we'll see
[12:19] Andrew Linden: Motor, I don't think so. The work was mostly to get the simulator to build under VisualStudio 2010 on windows and autobuild on linux.
[12:19] Motor Loon: so not a "new" havok version
[12:19] Andrew Linden: So there was a VS2010 build of the havok libraries used for that.
[12:20] Andrew Linden: Yes, a slightly newer version of the Havok libraries.
[12:20] Andrew Linden: I'll have to ask Falcon whether anything changed that might be noticed. I don't know what all went in there.
[12:20] Motor Loon: but by "problems" I meant the problem of mesh vehicles not being able to travel from one havok version to another... like we experienced last time changes was made to havok
[12:21] Andrew Linden: I think some rare simulator crash bugs were fixed in that codebase.
[12:21] Andrew Linden: oh right Motor, that might be a "problem"
[12:21] Simon Linden: He mentioned some pathfinding problems that may be fixed there too
[12:22] Motor Loon: It was talked about for future updates like those to havok, to try and find another method to roll it out so it didnt affect our mesh vehicles so much... but I guess that idea was canceled then?
[12:22] MartinRJ Fayray: the problem with characters that seem to fly through the sim repeatedly doesn't seem to be fixed
[12:22] Theresa Tennyson: Motor looks upset with his cane... Is the LeTigre code on any regions in Aditi right now?
[12:22] Motor Loon: ;-)
[12:23] MartinRJ Fayray: I can see the character from the neighbouring parcel fly through my screen every couple of minutes
[12:23] Andrew Linden: MartinRJ, that actually sounds like a interestlist bug.
[12:23] MartinRJ Fayray: Oh
[12:23] Andrew Linden: I should probably try to look into it in my current project.
[12:23] Andrew Linden: Once I get it unblocked I'll try to run some characters around.
[12:24] Simon Linden: Sandbox Goguen on Aditi has the code that will go to LeTigre tomorrow
[12:24] Simon Linden: Also Racers Island
[12:24] Motor Loon: ok
[12:24] Andrew Linden: Motor, yes it sounds like the LeTigre RC will indeed have a problem with moving mesh vehicles across region boundares between mismatched havok libs.
[12:24] Theresa Tennyson: Uy.
[12:25] Motor Loon: Ill get my customers warned then
[12:25] Theresa Tennyson: Is the Havok library change the only change that's going into LeTigre?
[12:25] Simon Linden: yeah, I'm seeing those pathfinding guys flying around pretty actively now
[12:26] NeoBokrug Elytis: Any thoughts about putting those blake sea regions on non-RC rollouts? That way all the people sailing won't hit a physics wall?
[12:26] Nalates Urriah: Or all the same channel...
[12:26] NeoBokrug Elytis: I don't know how big that dune buggy place is, but if it's more than one region, you may want to consider that too.
[12:27] Andrew Linden: That's a decent request NeoBokrug. I'll try to forward that to our deploy team.
[12:27] MartinRJ Fayray: the bug I mentioned can easily be reproduced, when you turn the camera, so that the character is out of sight, ... wait a couple of seconds... and turn it back. The character will seem to fly then.
[12:27] MartinRJ Fayray: when it comes into view.
[12:27] Motor Loon: That would be nice with the Blake sea... however, it would ofcourse in no way solve the problem really... you'll have issues with mesh airplanes, motorcycles, cars just as much as with mesh boats
[12:28] NeoBokrug Elytis: Just trying to think ahead. :)
[12:28] Andrew Linden: Yeah MartinRJ, I think that is an interstlist bug. It might even be fixed in my latest work. I can probably test later today.
[12:29] Theresa Tennyson: For Havok purposes, is a prim that's been changed to "convex hull" considered a mesh object?
[12:29] Motor Loon: no Theresa
[12:30] Motor Loon: only "real" mesh content
[12:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[12:30] Motor Loon: and attached stuff is not affected
[12:30] Andrew Linden: I think she means, "will it have the havok lib mismatch problem when trying to cross region boundaries?"
[12:30] Theresa Tennyson: Yes.
[12:30] Motor Loon: yeah... it dont... I tried that during last round...
[12:31] Motor Loon: only real mesh was affected
[12:31] Andrew Linden: Good, I'm glad Motor seems to know. I wasn't sure if it would be a problem or not.
[12:31] Andrew Linden: I'll confirm with Falcon later today.
[12:33] Andrew Linden: Hrm... I'm getting the "flying character" problem right now, with a wandering character that is off in one corner of my view.
[12:33] Andrew Linden: Which means I can probably copy the Denby region to my test grid to try it out on the new interestlist.
[12:34] Motor Loon: viewer doing interpolation when it wasnt supposed to?
[12:34] Qie Niangao: or missing an object update that motion has stopped
[12:34] Andrew Linden: Yeah sorta... the viewer expects certain behavior from the simulator
[12:35] Andrew Linden: so it may be a mismatch between what the viewer expects and what the simulator is sending
[12:35] Simon Linden: I wouldn't be surprised if that wandering character problem is with the viewer and its motion prediction code
[12:35] Andrew Linden: or else (more likely) an outright bug on the server side
[12:35] Theresa Tennyson: It's not jumping to a new position that it should be in either - they fly off over land they can never get to.
[12:36] Nalates Urriah: Andrew, have you seen this? It might be related. PATHBUG-190 - Beta & Dev Viewers cannot render PF Characters
[12:36] Tiberious Neruda: ....could it just be the usual 'dreaded L word'?
[12:36] Motor Loon: Just thinking if it was serverside, we'd all see it... and I personally have not see those characters misbehave yet
[12:36] Motor Loon: ..but my camera is also pointing in the direction they are
[12:37] Tiberious Neruda: I've seen 'em float off myself
[12:37] Theresa Tennyson: It happens with non-pathfinding physical moving characters too.
[12:37] Motor Loon: thats true, I've seen that before with regular physical stuff
[12:37] Andrew Linden: Huh... that PATHBUG-190 behavior sounds weird Tiberious.
[12:37] Tiberious Neruda: just saw it now
[12:38] Andrew Linden: I wouldn't rule out a server-side interstlist bug.
[12:38] Andrew Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/PATHBUG-190
[12:38] Qie Niangao: and I just saw it, too
[12:38] Tiberious Neruda: it looked to fly off into the void to the east
[12:38] Qie Niangao: I was facing south, and it flew due south.
[12:39] Tiberious Neruda: I'm facing NE, and it appeared to go more E
[12:39] Nalates Urriah: I just saw the walking cube man flash by...
[12:39] Nalates Urriah: Second Life 3.4.2 (265762) Oct 11 2012
[12:40] Motor Loon: what kind of drawdistance you guys have?
[12:40] Nalates Urriah: 272m...
[12:40] Andrew Linden: 128m
[12:40] Simon Linden: I'm facing SW with my camera up above that crystal thing on the hill, and seeing them fly by from behind the camera position
[12:40] Tiberious Neruda: 104m
[12:41] Qie Niangao: 128m on Second Life 3.4.0 (264911)
[12:41] Motor Loon: Im on 512... I'll try lowering it and see if that means anything
[12:41] Qie Niangao: (I saw it a bit after actually looking at the character in view, then turning cam away from it)
[12:42] Nalates Urriah: I'm looking at the crystal on the hill... the cube guy goes by right to left between me and my camera...
[12:42] Motor Loon: odd... he just walks perfect on my screen, havent seen him fly at all (yet)
[12:43] Andrew Linden: Yeah, it is easy to repro.
[12:45] Nalates Urriah: He takes off in different directions when he reaches his far east patrol point, which is just off my screen.
[12:45] Chieron Tenk: facing WNW, didnt move the screen, it just flew by tpo the southwest...
[12:46] Motor Loon: dammit I cant seem to repo it... imagine that... complaining that stuff is working ... thats gotta be a first
[12:46] Barrington DeSantis: Yeah, even a small angle of movement can affect the "fly off" angle
[12:46] Barrington DeSantis: angle of cam movement*
[12:47] Nalates Urriah: I haven't moved my screen for several minutes and the guy goes in different directions each time...
[12:48] Simon Linden: Mine seem somewhat consistent but I can imagine it being related to their motion when an update is sent (or not sent) to the viewer
[12:48] Andrew Linden: I'm thinking... this problem might actually already be fixed in my interestlist code.
[12:49] Nalates Urriah: I am assuming it happens when he reaches the partorl points and heads for the next way point.
[12:49] Andrew Linden: I'll just have to test it.
[12:49] Barrington DeSantis: I'm finding it fairly constant in direction when looking up at the crystals - as if the character is between cam and crystals, angling down slightly andhe appears to fly back along the line of his patrol towards the west
[12:50] Andrew Linden: Our deploy team has agreed to try to make the Blake Sea regions more homogenous with respect to RC deployment.
[12:50] Andrew Linden: They're going to try to move the six LeTigre regions over to Magnum
[12:50] Nalates Urriah: That will make the sailors happy
[12:50] Andrew Linden: which should reduce the "havok lib mismatch on region crossing" problem...
[12:51] Andrew Linden: as long as it is just LeTigre with the mismatch
[12:51] Motor Loon: good news Andrew
[12:51] Andrew Linden: if the code on LeTigre were to be expanded to another RC channel next week then the problem would happen again
[12:51] Motor Loon: very true
[12:52] Andrew Linden: but the deploy team is certainly aware that expanding that code deploy will cause new problems
[12:52] Motor Loon: what would really help was if Blake Sea was all put on mainchannel
[12:52] Andrew Linden: so that will be a point of consideration when trying to figure out what and how to promote code later this week
[12:53] Motor Loon: but I understand that the whole point of RC's are to get stuff tested
[12:53] Nalates Urriah: That moving Blake to another channels sorta just moves the problem around
[12:54] Andrew Linden: not quite Nalates, it appears that the Magnum RC channel has spare room for the six regions
[12:54] Andrew Linden: which means that there are not a corresponding number of Magnum regions that will be moving to LeTigre to trade places
[12:54] Nalates Urriah: No... sorry I meant moving Blake to main... because other regions would need to go into a test channel
[12:55] Andrew Linden: also, Blake Sea would be better served with more *homogeneity*
[12:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[12:55] Nalates Urriah: I agree
[12:55] Andrew Linden: it should probably all be on one channel
[12:56] Andrew Linden: NeoBokrug, you mentioned some dune buggy regions... do you remember any of their names?
[12:57] NeoBokrug Elytis: Not really. I think they're part of that premium dune buggy they gave out.
[12:57] Barrington DeSantis: Driver's Gulch?
[12:57] Andrew Linden: Oh ok. I might be able to fine out more info from some internal channels.
[12:58] Andrew Linden: I'll investigate to see if it would be easy to make the dune buggy area more homogeneous too.
[12:58] Theresa Tennyson: Dry Gulch, Dust Gulch, Rock Gulch and Salt Gulch.
[12:58] Andrew Linden: If there is just one LeTigre region in the mix, or if they are all LeTigre with one odd region out, then it might be easy to sync them all together on one channel
[12:59] Barrington DeSantis: Salt Gulch
[12:59] Barrington DeSantis: Salt Gulch (128,128,2)
[13:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[13:00] Theresa Tennyson: I know there's another mid-major change to Havok coming out too - it might be a good idea to set up one RC channel for minimum disruption and use that for Havok tests.
[13:00] Qie Niangao: It may actually be useful to set the 4 sim clusters that make up premium sandboxes all to 4 *different* channels.
[13:00] Andrew Linden: Yup thanks. The four "* Gulch" regions are all on the same channel: "Second Life Server"
[13:00] Barrington DeSantis: Qie's idea is good.
[13:01] Theresa Tennyson whispers, "Criminentlies, are there a lot of Linden Homes..."
[13:02] Andrew Linden: What havok project is that Theresa? I don't know which one you might mean.
[13:03] Theresa Tennyson: It involves some optional terrain smoothing thing. It's on a couple of sandboxes now. DRTSIM-172 maybe?
[13:03] Andrew Linden: Ah. That's what is going onto LeTigre tomorrow.
[13:03] Qie Niangao: (sorry, gotta be at another meeting... thanks Lindens. Have fun all.)
[13:04] Andrew Linden: Yeah Qie, maximal surface area between the different channels is good for testing, but minimal surface area is good for some regions.
[13:04] Simon Linden: Thanks everyone for coming today and the good conversation
[13:04] Andrew Linden: It would be nice to have a clear map of where the channels are deployed....
[13:06] Simon Linden: Take care, see y'all next time
[13:06] Andrew Linden: Ok that's all for today. Thanks for coming.
[13:06] Barrington DeSantis: Thanks, Simon
[13:06] Nalates Urriah: Thx Lindens
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