Bug triage/2007-08-13/Transcript

Transcript of Bug triage/2007-08-13:
[15:01]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	bug triage here?
[15:01]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	yar
[15:01]	Soft Linden: 	Yup!
[15:01]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	g'day all
[15:01]	Soft Linden: 	Rob will be along shortly. Mondays are usually run by Aric but he's out this week so we'll kinda tag team.
[15:01]	Soft Linden: 	And there he is!
[15:01]	Wyn Galbraith: 	Hey Rob, Soft.
[15:01]	Lex Neva: 	I can't stay... have fun, folks :)
[15:01]	Lex Neva: 	nice to briefly see all these names I recognize
[15:02]	Rob Linden: 	hi folks
[15:02]	Helena Lycia: 	Hello
[15:02]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	evenin' all
[15:02]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	hi rob
[15:02]	Nock Forager: 	hi
[15:02]	SignpostMarv Martin puts his headset on 	SignpostMarv Martin puts his headset on
[15:03]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hullo all. I'm just gonna listen in. *grins*
[15:03]	Soft Linden: 	Actually, we generally do these in text. A loooot of Linux users participate, and they don't have easy voice options yet.
[15:03]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	hehe
[15:04]	Rob Linden: 	so, looks like more than a quorum here, should we get started? First up, is
[15:04]	Soft Linden: 	This is off of http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Bug_triage/Monday_Agenda
[15:04]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	bah. every time my mac mutes my headset without checking the box. Odd
[15:04]	Rob Linden is on Linux right now because he forgot to upgrade his Mac, and because he likes Linux 	Rob Linden is on Linux right now because he forgot to upgrade his Mac, and because he likes Linux
[15:04]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	I haven't experienced this issue at all
[15:04]	Solomon Draken: 	Hmmm no place to sit
[15:05]	Solomon Draken: 	There
[15:05]	Helena Lycia: 	Rob, before we get started could I ask if LL have thought about having a script only triage. The way I figure it, script bugs may affect as many people as other more noticable bugs but only the script writers know about them,people who buy scripted stuff just end up with rpoducts that have naff scripts but they don't know about it so script bugs might appear low profile but still affect a lot of people
[15:05]	Soft Linden: 	This set of bugs is selected for oldest unimported bugs. It's likely we'll find a few that don't exist anymore, this is where your input can help quite a bit.
[15:05]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	Well, aside from during the recent grid troubles. But that's to be expected at such timws
[15:05]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	Script bug triage sounds excelent, personally
[15:06]	Rob Linden: 	Helena, could you raise that on sldev, and we can talk abut it on Thursday at the open source meeting?
[15:06]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	votes for that
[15:06]	Helena Lycia: 	I don't know what sldev is
[15:06]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	sl developers list
[15:06]	Rob Linden: 	let's try to blow through the published agenda
[15:06]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	mailing list
[15:06]	Soft Linden: 	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev
[15:06]	Helena Lycia: 	I'm not on that
[15:06]	Rob Linden wants to discourage prepending issues onto a meeting in real time 	Rob Linden wants to discourage prepending issues onto a meeting in real time
[15:06]	Soft Linden: 	Helena - that link has information on how ya can sign up and comment.
[15:07]	SignpostMarv Martin suggests not using the Wiki for an agenda :-P 	SignpostMarv Martin suggests not using the Wiki for an agenda :-P
[15:07]	Rob Linden: 	back on
[15:07]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	or use your sysop block edit perms
[15:08]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	I've seen several people with this kind of thing. Everyone tried to help them but they finally give up in disgust
[15:08]	Soft Linden: 	(Since some of you are new: Clicking the cube in the center takes you to the issue we're talking about)
[15:08]	Jacek Antonelli: 	I get during asset server troubles
[15:08]	Rob Linden: 	is this just a general description of ruthing, or is there something more speicfic
[15:08]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	its a non-stop ruthing type thing, it seems. No usual fix seems to work
[15:09]	Soft Linden: 	This looks like ruthing under asset server load/failure
[15:09]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	but only for certain people while others don't show the same issue iwhile they are standing next to them
[15:09]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	There was a proposed issue to provide an interim solution to this
[15:10]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	A control to re-donwload avatar data
[15:10]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/
[15:10]	Nock Forager: 	Reback not work sometime...
[15:11]	Soft Linden: 	Thanks, WarKirby - I'll link that as related.
[15:11]	Solomon Draken: 	Having experienced this issue yesterday personally I noticed that using the rebake textures option and logging out then in did not resolve the issue.
[15:11]	Tomcat BnT: 	Hello, may I ask a question?
[15:11]	Soft Linden: 	Rob - is there already a general ruthing issue in pJIRA?
[15:11]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	There's also another related issue, to make the ruthing more tolerable, at least
[15:12]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/
[15:12]	Wyn Galbraith: 	Don't mind me, I'm having connection problems.
[15:12]	Solomon Draken: 	Intrestingly another resident with the same AV as me had the same issue
[15:12]	Tomcat BnT: 	Uhm, I assume, most things related to ruth, missing HUD attachments and attachments at crotch is related to packet loss issues in UDP, as packages are not resent after 3 tries any more
[15:12]	Astarte Artaud: 	I am generally finind that it is slow and meaasgae cannot alter appearance still downloading 5 minutes later
[15:12]	Soft Linden: 	I'm linking 2043 too.
[15:13]	Rob Linden: 	great....let's gather up all of the ruthing issues, pick one to be the "parent" issue, and I'll make sure that the issue is linked to our ruthing issue
[15:14]	Soft Linden: 	I'll nominate as the parent Ruthing issue. It's the oldest unresolved Ruth issue I see.
[15:14]	Soft Linden: 	unresolved/unimported, anyway
[15:14]	Tomcat BnT: 	another thing, for RegAPI avatars, is there the Library missing in Inventory?
[15:14]	Solomon Draken: 	I second that
[15:14]	Rob Linden: 	k....let's also move that into VWR
[15:14]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	There's also this
[15:14]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/
[15:14]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	Pointing out that ruthing is not always universal
[15:15]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	sometimes, only the victim, or everyone BUT the victim, sees it
[15:15]	Soft Linden: 	rob - moving it
[15:15]	Rob Linden: 	thanks...moving on:
[15:16]	Soft Linden: 	(warkirby - thanks, linked)
[15:16]	Rob Linden: 	is this still broken?
[15:16]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	what ?
[15:16]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	try it and find out :-P
[15:16]	Rob Linden: 	(it would be so handy if there were a test script on this one)
[15:17]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	A test script for ruthing ?
[15:17]	Soft Linden: 	WarKirby - http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/
[15:17]	Rob Linden: 	
[15:17]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	oh We're moving on
[15:17]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	default{state_entry(){llCollisionSprite("7b4cb379-38c1-034b-0cdd-e32dca97bf5d"); }}
[15:17]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	try that
[15:17]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	can't build here so i can't try it out Rob :-P
[15:18]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Also could script moving a prim up in the air, turning on physical, letting it drop, and watching if it makes particles
[15:18]	Soft Linden: 	I added that in a comment on the issue
[15:18]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	It's muchj more flexible using llParticleSystem in a collision event
[15:18]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	I would say llCollisionSprite is obsolete, no ?
[15:18]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	X-D
[15:18]	Solomon Draken: 	I would agree
[15:18]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	you should've checked what that texture was first Soft :-P
[15:18]	Soft Linden grins. 	Soft Linden grins.
[15:19]	SignpostMarv Martin gave you nekkid marv. 	SignpostMarv Martin gave you nekkid marv.
[15:19]	Helena Lycia: 	Forgive my memory, what function do you use to supress collision visual effects?
[15:19]	Soft Linden: 	It'll make for an interesting collision.
[15:19]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	It seems we have a clueless newbie in our midst :O)
[15:19]	Nock Forager: 	hey don't sit on that block, lol
[15:20]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	http://lslwiki.net/lslwiki/wakka.php?wakka=llCollisionSound
[15:20]	Saijanai Kuhn makes note to check that texture privately 	Saijanai Kuhn makes note to check that texture privately
[15:20]	Tomcat BnT: 	being in the center of a circle means, you pay the next round
[15:20]	Helena Lycia: 	I said "visual" :)
[15:20]	Soft Linden: 	Let's import that and test it - it's a quick test, and if it's still broken it's valid
[15:20]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	To suppress the default collision sprites, use an empty string for impact_sprite or set llCollisionSound's impact_volume to 0. (Yes, llCollisionSound affects llCollisionSprite.)
[15:20]	Helena Lycia: 	I thought llCollisionSPrite could supress the visual effects, if so then it's not obsolete
[15:20]	Elf Uriza: 	haha sorry y'all
[15:21]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	Does it change the visual effect on collision ? I was unaware of that
[15:21]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	its an odd name if that is all its doign is surpressing
[15:21]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	I thought it was just an additional particle effect
[15:21]	Tomcat BnT: 	looks like, no sound means no sprites
[15:21]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Sounds like it's not obsolete. Anyway, the issue here isn't whether it's obsolete, it's whether it's working at all
[15:22]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	well I can either tp away and check it or a Linden can check it with that demo script
[15:22]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	it would be much more efficient to hold these meetings in a private sandbox
[15:22]	Helena Lycia: 	I know you can use the sound one to kill collision sounds, sometimes you might want something different from the default but sometimes you might just want to hide default behaviour... I do that with vehicles
[15:22]	Soft Linden: 	I'm marking that for import - we'll test it unless someone else wants to test it and comment later.
[15:22]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	lemme just tp back to my office
[15:23]	Soft Linden: 	
[15:23]	Wyn Galbraith: 	Oh a Nutcase, where's Squirrel when you need her.
[15:23]	Bridie Linden: 	hahahah
[15:23]	Wyn Galbraith: 	LOL
[15:23]	WarKirby Magojiro waves 	WarKirby Magojiro waves
[15:23]	Bridie Linden: 	Sorry I'm late
[15:23]	Wyn Galbraith: 	Just a little late.
[15:23]	Bridie Linden: 	Connectivity issues today - arg!
[15:23]	Wyn Galbraith has had those herself. 	Wyn Galbraith has had those herself.
[15:23]	Bridie Linden: 	(not SL)
[15:24]	Daedalus Young: 	We'd need more info on 329: is it still broken with latest release
[15:24]	Soft Linden: 	This relates to voice problems on G4/G5 Macs. It's had no additional votes since March. I'm going to close this unless there's issue.
[15:24]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	Are we waiting on signpost to return with test results before continueing ?
[15:25]	Rob Linden: 	sorry, my client froze up a couple of min ago
[15:25]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Moved on to 329
[15:25]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	I've never had that one. 57 Miles and I ran into all sorts of inconsistent behavior yesterday when he was working on this how-to
[15:25]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	http://metaversed.com/12-aug-2007/video-how-record-second-life-voice-mac
[15:25]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	yes. That's one of the most annoying issues just now
[15:25]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	regular client freezing
[15:25]	Soft Linden: 	Rob, I marked as can't repro (sound not working on G4/G5) - no additional comments/votes since March
[15:25]	Soft Linden: 	was next
[15:26]	Rob Linden: 	what was ?
[15:26]	Rob Linden: 	(the resolution, that is?)
[15:26]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	none as of yet
[15:26]	Soft Linden: 	Oh! Import. We got a small test script that I attached to it.
[15:26]	Piero Padar: 	Soft I had inventory problems (not big) I IMed you thanks :)
[15:26]	Solomon Draken: 	Ditto on the inventory probs
[15:27]	SignpostMarv has a tendancy to multi-task: SignpostMarv Martin's dspeak v2.6 booting up. 	SignpostMarv has a tendancy to multi-task: SignpostMarv Martin's dspeak v2.6 booting up.
[15:27]	Solomon Draken: 	Frontier looked into it though
[15:27]	Soft Linden: 	Yike. Didn't realize ya crashed that far back. It still had you sitting there quite a while. :)
[15:27]	Daedalus Young: 	hey
[15:27]	Rob Linden: 	k...thx
[15:27]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	what was that?
[15:27]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	yeah, it's borked still
[15:27]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	did everyone just get unseated?
[15:27]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	collision sound works, but i didn't see any particles
[15:27]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	yep.
[15:27]	Solomon Draken: 	Yes
[15:27]	Daedalus Young: 	I right-clicked the seating, then we unsat
[15:27]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	earthquake?
[15:27]	Astarte Artaud: 	Yes and I just disappeared into thin air
[15:27]	Wyn Galbraith: 	That was fun.
[15:27]	Daedalus Young: 	oh wait, maybe I took a copy
[15:28]	Soft Linden: 	I think we just got too many folks in Rob's raft :)
[15:28]	Saijanai Kuhn looks around for a doorframe 	Saijanai Kuhn looks around for a doorframe
[15:28]	Nock Forager: 	lol
[15:28]	Tomcat BnT: 	yes
[15:28]	Solomon Draken chuckles 	Solomon Draken chuckles
[15:28]	Tomcat BnT: 	there is unsit on take copy
[15:28]	Daedalus Young: 	let me check inventory
[15:28]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	that sounds like a bug to me
[15:28]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	ah...
[15:28]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Hehe, add it to the agenda for next meeting
[15:28]	Tomcat BnT: 	it's a feature
[15:28]	Soft Linden: 	Ah, that'd do it. Ya - should prolly turn that off :/
[15:28]	Astarte Artaud: 	My apologies every one
[15:28]	Daedalus Young: 	ah yes, I took a copy, sorry about that :P
[15:28]	Rob Linden: 	weird
[15:28]	There is no suitable surface to sit on, try another spot. 	There is no suitable surface to sit on, try another spot.
[15:28]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	oddly enough, the collision sound didn't work when I dropped the ball, only when i walked into it Rob
[15:28]	Tomcat BnT: 	has to be, or you'd have a prim with an avatar sitting on in yourinventory
[15:29]	Wyn Galbraith: 	This innertube no lon ger likes us.
[15:29]	Nock Forager: 	take copy makes everyone unseat...lol
[15:29]	Saijanai Kuhn wants to be cloned and sitting in someone's invetnory 	Saijanai Kuhn wants to be cloned and sitting in someone's invetnory
[15:29]	Beware Hax: 	no idea if its relevant but id like to be able to set the clock on the top right to 24h. i have a jira about it open
[15:29]	Daedalus Young: 	funny though
[15:29]	Daedalus Young: 	anyway
[15:29]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	you should hear my evil laugh when you walk into the ball
[15:29]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	MUHAHAHAA
[15:29]	SignpostMarv Martin gave you llCollisionSprite() Test. 	SignpostMarv Martin gave you llCollisionSprite() Test.
[15:29]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	can we move on with 332 now ?
[15:29]	Rob Linden: 	ok, back on
[15:29]	Wyn Galbraith: 	Finally.
[15:30]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	332, still borked
[15:30]	Solomon Draken: 	Yep
[15:30]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	as indicated by that ply ball I sent Soft and Rob
[15:30]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	I don't see how this is a bug
[15:30]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	it's the behaviour I'd expect
[15:30]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	much in the same way as llTargetOmega pauses when you select something
[15:30]	Soft Linden: 	A quick note: The JIRAs for a meeting are set ahead of time, based on age in the public JIRA, or the number of votes on issues.
[15:30]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	default{state_entry(){llCollisionSprite("7b4cb379-38c1-034b-0cdd-e32dca97bf5d");llCollisionSound("f3941b66-b74b-fe19-f67f-1e371f77eac0",10.0); }}
[15:31]	Soft Linden: 	If ya want something brought up in the meeting, the 100% best way is to get friends to vote a pet issue up.
[15:31]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	the sound works but the particles don't
[15:31]	Soft Linden: 	The more streamlined we can keep these meetings, the more issues we can get imported for developers to see.
[15:31]	Rob Linden: 	is major priority?
[15:31]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	meh
[15:32]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	a workaround as mentioned would be to use llParticleSystem() in collision_start()
[15:32]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	so I wouldn't call it major
[15:32]	Rob Linden: 	k....marking normal, then import
[15:32]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	332 is two issues
[15:32]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Wait, wait, are we talking about 322 or 332?
[15:32]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	one of which is really a non issue
[15:32]	Rob Linden: 	332
[15:33]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	the other is worth fixing, I think
[15:33]	Jacek Antonelli: 	332 isn't the particles one
[15:33]	Solomon Draken: 	Yes
[15:33]	Solomon Draken: 	It can be rather annoying
[15:33]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	was going to sy the new one hs nothing to do with collisions
[15:33]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	lol
[15:33]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	the second one beinfg that rotations and translations are interpolated at different rates
[15:33]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	numbers are too similar :P
[15:33]	Jacek Antonelli: 	aye
[15:33]	Soft Linden: 	Ya, it would make sense for those to be similar/identical.
[15:34]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	I think that part of the issue is worth looking at, then
[15:34]	Soft Linden: 	I'll add a comment to the pjira making that more explicit
[15:34]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	the first part is expected behaviour, though, and needs no change imo
[15:34]	Wyn Galbraith: 	Lag test.
[15:35]	Rob Linden: 	anyone object to making normal, and then import?
[15:35]	Rob Linden: 	if not, moving on
[15:35]	Rob Linden: 	
[15:35]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	not at all
[15:35]	Soft Linden: 	(clarified the issue title as well)
[15:36]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	Oh dear
[15:36]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	this one is important
[15:36]	Solomon Draken: 	Yes
[15:36]	Solomon Draken: 	This is a serious issue
[15:37]	Rob Linden: 	k...I'll import
[15:37]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	surely only the most recent objects should be returned first
[15:37]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	asynchronous communicatin, including item returns
[15:37]	Ashcroft Burnham agrees with Warkiby 	Ashcroft Burnham agrees with Warkiby
[15:38]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	how long does it take to backup the content in a region ?
[15:38]	Soft Linden: 	I've not seen this type of attack, but we can ask gteam if they've seen it.
[15:38]	Rob Linden: 	next up:
[15:38]	Tomcat BnT: 	Can every sim have a binary log for the no-copy items in the uploading queue?
[15:38]	Ashcroft Burnham: 	Indeed. wouldn't a solution be a per-sim prims rezzed per minute limit?
[15:38]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	evenif you prioritize, there's no guarantee of when an item gets returend
[15:39]	Tomcat BnT: 	that binary log should be on disk when returning and the algorithm for choosing items to return should favour copyable items
[15:39]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	e.g. if expected object return rate reaches a set level, could a backup of the sim not be ran prior to object return ?
[15:39]	Tomcat BnT: 	or having the upload queue as a transaction on disk
[15:39]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	^that'd lower the risk of total content loss
[15:40]	Rob Linden: 	anyone looking at yet?
[15:40]	Ashcroft Burnham: 	Journalling, anyone?
[15:40]	Solomon Draken: 	Yes something needs to be done to prompt a backup as this has perm impact on no copy objects
[15:40]	WarKirby Magojiro looks 	WarKirby Magojiro looks
[15:40]	Soft Linden: 	sure looks like some Japanese glyphs are getting mixed in with Latin fonts
[15:40]	Tomcat BnT: 	no copy should work with transactions anyway
[15:41]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	I've never experienced , so I can't offer any insight
[15:41]	Rob Linden: 	I'm thinking we should just resolve/need info. the symptom is a little too abstract here
[15:41]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Re -- no repro, no comments...
[15:41]	Solomon Draken: 	Ditto
[15:41]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	1 vote
[15:41]	Jacek Antonelli: 	aye
[15:41]	Ashcroft Burnham: 	I've never had that problem.
[15:41]	Tomcat BnT: 	wait, checking
[15:41]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	334 looks like OpenGL texture borkage
[15:41]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	seems like a fairly isolated case
[15:41]	Ashcroft Burnham: 	Does it really need to be "major", not "normal"?
[15:41]	Soft Linden: 	There's an existing issues about Asian text sometimes rendering in the wrong place, though it's usually just at the top of the screen, not under everything.
[15:41]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	I'm getting that intermittently my self
[15:42]	Rob Linden: 	there was probably an overflow that caused the font to get corrupted on that machine
[15:42]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Ashcroft: apparently, it might cause crashing after a certain time period?
[15:42]	Ashcroft Burnham: 	Ah. That makes it worse.
[15:42]	Daedalus Young: 	yes, I'd say Normal, or even Minor
[15:42]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	I've seen a problem on the Mac where yo9u set certain graphics options and various fields get borked. Not with text, but garbage graphics.
[15:42]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	I say resolve it as cannot reproduce
[15:42]	Wyn Galbraith: 	Haven't seen that one.
[15:42]	Daedalus Young: 	if a relog fixes it
[15:42]	Rob Linden: 	yup
[15:42]	Rob Linden: 	k...next
[15:43]	Tomcat BnT: 	okay, next. That bug looks like hardware or driver issues
[15:43]	Rob Linden: 	
[15:44]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	this prim is lagging
[15:44]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	probably not lagging, more "uses llDetectedKey(0) instead of running in a for() loop"
[15:45]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	the picture doesn't open
[15:45]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	the system info is also highly unhelpful
[15:45]	SignpostMarv Martin downloads the bmp 	SignpostMarv Martin downloads the bmp
[15:45]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	only one other person commented abut it
[15:45]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	SLOW download right now
[15:45]	Tomcat BnT: 	looks like another driver/hardware issue
[15:45]	Solomon Draken: 	I got it open but I have never experienced it
[15:46]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	ah, appearence bug where UI gets plastered over the avatar ?
[15:46]	Solomon Draken: 	Agreed
[15:46]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	I've had that
[15:46]	Tomcat BnT: 	I've seen a bug with appearance from a friend
[15:46]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	I'd say resolve as needs more info, personally
[15:46]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	it's generally an out of date driver or multi-monitor issue
[15:46]	Tomcat BnT: 	but there it was garbage in the üpreview windows
[15:46]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	Bridie is ruthed
[15:46]	Soft Linden: 	Just for the age of this one and zero votes, I'd close it for more info/repro
[15:46]	Daedalus Young: 	sounds good
[15:47]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	actually, random textures o an avatar would be a kool option...
[15:47]	Rob Linden: 	k....sounds like a plan. SignpostMarv...if you have more info on this, could you add a comment?
[15:47]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	I'm going to attach a JPG of the bitmpa for lazy peeps
[15:47]	Tomcat BnT: 	I think this is the same issue my friend experiences
[15:48]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	shall we move on ?
[15:48]	Rob Linden: 	
[15:48]	Tomcat BnT: 	we can move on, I sent that issue to my friend to check for a repro
[15:49]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	I have the exact inverse of this issue
[15:49]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/#action_24058 , JPG attached
[15:49]	Ashcroft Burnham doesn't use voice because of the awful horizontal friends list. 	Ashcroft Burnham doesn't use voice because of the awful horizontal friends list.
[15:49]	Rob Linden: 	looks like an old voice issue.
[15:49]	Soft Linden: 	Rob - this one should have gone to support
[15:49]	Solomon Draken: 	I think this issue is meerly an incorrect hardware config on the person's system not a client issue.
[15:49]	WarKirby Magojiro agrees 	WarKirby Magojiro agrees
[15:49]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	and it has a notable lack of system info too
[15:49]	Rob Linden: 	yup...resolve/misfiled
[15:50]	Rob Linden: 	next up
[15:50]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	the previous client borked if you had multiple sound cards installed
[15:50]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	USB headsets are generally self contained soundcards
[15:50]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	voice is too borked for some people to use.
[15:50]	Tomcat BnT: 	ahh
[15:50]	Rob Linden: 	
[15:50]	Tomcat BnT: 	voice is another app than SL itself
[15:51]	Rob Linden: 	this one looks too old/non-specific to be useful for fixing anything
[15:51]	SignpostMarv Martin wonders when you'll be able to log into the voice server without instantiating your avie :-P	SignpostMarv Martin wonders when you'll be able to log into the voice server without instantiating your avie :-P
[15:51]	Soft Linden: 	Ya. It could really be a lot of things. We're quickest to import things that point to a reproducible or commonly experienced problem.
[15:51]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	can do that right now with sllib I hear
[15:51]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	I don't even understand this one -_-
[15:51]	Solomon Draken: 	Too little info
[15:52]	SignpostMarv Martin googles the product 	SignpostMarv Martin googles the product
[15:52]	Ashcroft Burnham is very confused by . 	Ashcroft Burnham is very confused by .
[15:52]	Rob Linden: 	next up
[15:52]	Rob Linden: 	
[15:52]	Rob Linden: 	
[15:52]	Rob Linden: 	(sorry)
[15:52]	Rob Linden: 	
[15:52]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	ah, this was mine
[15:53]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	it's actually a case of expectation, rather than technical error
[15:53]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	348 looks like the voice client choked on the drivers for a microphone integrated into a USB webcam
[15:53]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	I would generally expect, that shift copying someone else's objject
[15:53]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	would create another one owned by them
[15:53]	Solomon Draken nods 	Solomon Draken nods
[15:53]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	but it apparently transfers a copy to yourselkf instead
[15:54]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	while isn't the one moved
[15:54]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	system must be checking who is creating the clone, not who owns the original
[15:54]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	the copy is left behind while the original is moved
[15:54]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	It causes problems while working with someone else
[15:54]	Jacek Antonelli: 	So, not a bug? Just a weird feature?
[15:54]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	if they forget to set full perms on the object
[15:54]	Solomon Draken: 	Yes
[15:54]	Tomcat BnT: 	yes, can be closed
[15:54]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	you can get lots of unuseable, unmodifiable prims everywhere
[15:55]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	i believe i've expereinced that problem during SL4B
[15:55]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	proper behavior...
[15:55]	Soft Linden: 	Rob, can I assign 363 to myself to doublecheck?
[15:55]	Soft Linden: 	It'll take 30 seconds to see if it's valid.
[15:55]	Rob Linden: 	sure, that works
[15:55]	Rob Linden: 	could someone change the title to be more accurate?
[15:55]	Soft Linden: 	I'll import if valid - because this would be bad.
[15:55]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	I'll do that
[15:55]	Rob Linden: 	also, I'm assuming it's normal priority
[15:55]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	copying someone elses' prims borks perms :-P
[15:56]	Soft Linden: 	yeah - it's pretty old, not many votes for that age.
[15:56]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	but only on the copy... so its not borked, but seems to be.
[15:56]	Beware Hax: 	why is it that they move the original anyway
[15:56]	Beware Hax: 	i always wondered that
[15:56]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	one of the great mysteries. 42 is the answer
[15:56]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	title changed
[15:56]	Tomcat BnT: 	could be fixed if shift-drag copy would not indice an inventory transfer and the copy has same ownership
[15:57]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	"copying someone elses' prims borks perms"
[15:57]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	whoops
[15:57]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	exactly
[15:57]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	that's what I'd expect
[15:57]	Tomcat BnT: 	as you would expect
[15:57]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	damn clipboard is failing
[15:57]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	they should be the owner of the copy too
[15:57]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	issue updated
[15:57]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	please refresh the page
[15:57]	Soft Linden: 	I think shift moves the original because it can tell the sim to drop a copy and you can go on moving the one the viewer already sees. Otherwise, it might take several seconds before you could move the copy.
[15:57]	Tomcat BnT: 	then you can copy no-transfer items owned by others
[15:58]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	exacrlt
[15:58]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	that's another good point
[15:58]	Daedalus Young: 	yes, it sometimes does take a second to see the new object appear
[15:58]	Solomon Draken: 	If you have mod perms Tomcat
[15:58]	Rob Linden: 	ok...one more from the agenda:
[15:58]	Rob Linden: 	(then SignpostMarv has one for overtime)
[15:58]	Jacek Antonelli: 	It also has the useful side effect of being able to undo the movement to end up with 2 prims in the same place :D
[15:59]	Soft Linden: 	I believe this one is just an issue about the firewall FAQs needing updates on the ports to be opened.
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli: 	has already been imported?
[15:59]	Rob Linden: 	lwell, not officially
[15:59]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	I had a problem with my firewall borking voice chat, so I'd agree with the description being accurate
[15:59]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	I worked with someone on 369 for an hour yesterday. Its a pretty big issue with firewalls
[15:59]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	the omment says so
[15:59]	Solomon Draken: 	I agree
[15:59]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	variatios have been mentioned on sldev.
[16:00]	Solomon Draken: 	FAQ needs more detail so users can avoid the issue
[16:00]	Tomcat BnT: 	yes, voice has to be explained on a network level
[16:00]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	"open ports x to y"
[16:00]	Tomcat BnT: 	showing what ports are used and how to configure NAT for traversal
[16:00]	Soft Linden: 	I think Stephany doesn't work with pJIRA as often as others. She might not know about the import tool. But the bHear team definitely knows about the documentation issue.
[16:01]	Soft Linden: 	Rob, should I just send her an email asking if there's an internal JIRA I can link this to?
[16:01]	Rob Linden: 	yup
[16:01]	Rob Linden: 	thanks
[16:01]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	moving on then ?
[16:01]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	a lot of small corproatiosn will have problems with this, from what I have seen
[16:02]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	small corporations
[16:02]	Tomcat BnT: 	that's why the voice protocol and port usage needs documentation
[16:02]	Soft Linden: 	Ya. A lot of companies only open a few very specific TCP ports, plus a general web proxy.
[16:02]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	you need 2 levels of FAQ for this. One for end-users, and one for coprorate tech support
[16:02]	Rob Linden: 	soft, do you have the full transcript?
[16:02]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	1 FAQ to rule them all
[16:03]	Bridie Linden: 	lol
[16:03]	Soft Linden: 	Sure. Want me to post it to the page?
[16:03]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	corporate tech people can be thicker than end-users
[16:03]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	1 FAQ to find them
[16:03]	Soft Linden: 	Or email?
[16:03]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	firewals Part A, Part B
[16:03]	Rob Linden: 	either way
[16:03]	Tomcat BnT: 	there was a time on voice beta, where the client caused my router to block network traffic to reach the internet
[16:03]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	if end-user FAQ is insufficient for corporate level stuff, that would mean the end-user FAQ is insufficient for geeky users
[16:04]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	so the geeks will read the Part B also
[16:04]	Soft Linden: 	I haven't seen a few of you here before. If you want, I can do a run through on how triages normally work after we're done.
[16:04]	Bridie Linden: 	Gotta run - see you!
[16:04]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	take care
[16:04]	Tomcat BnT: 	because my router is very intelligent and by itself understands SIP
[16:04]	Daedalus Young: 	bye
[16:04]	SignpostMarv Martin suggests similar instructions to what OpenDNS use 	SignpostMarv Martin suggests similar instructions to what OpenDNS use
[16:04]	Wyn Galbraith: 	LOL
[16:04]	Rob Linden: 	k...one overtime issue to look at:
[16:04]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	platform-specific + generic instructions
[16:05]	Rob Linden: 	(I'd normally not field late breaker like this, but 'm told we might be able to close this)
[16:05]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	seems to be a case of ATI borking OpenGL
[16:05]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	other OpenGL apps are affected identically to SL
[16:05]	Soft Linden: 	Signpost - what's the hotfix you refer to?
[16:05]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	the workaround described in the comments applies to other OpenGL apps
[16:06]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	1) Set primary monitor resolution to 1024 x 768 2) Set secondary monitor resolution to 800x600, place on left of primary monitor 3) Launch SL (make sure it'll launch in maximised windowed mode) * only the right-most 224 pixels of the application window will display updates, but the application can still be interacted with. 4) Drag back and forth between primary and secondary monitor. * last frame will be displayed on application window, but no updates will take place.
[16:06]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	it's in the description
[16:06]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	basically,
[16:06]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	is ATI's fault, not LL's :-P
[16:06]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	what if we only have one monitor ?
[16:06]	Astarte Artaud: 	One moniter ati is ok
[16:06]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	i didn't notice the problem occuring if I disabled the second monitor
[16:07]	Soft Linden: 	Do other opengl apps do this?
[16:07]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	yep
[16:07]	Astarte Artaud: 	agree
[16:07]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	not SL's fault, then
[16:07]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	seems like it should be closed
[16:07]	Tomcat BnT: 	Vista or XP?
[16:07]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	XP Pro
[16:07]	Ashcroft Burnham quietly slips away due to the late hour... 	Ashcroft Burnham quietly slips away due to the late hour...
[16:07]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Resolution: Blame ATI. *grin*
[16:07]	Astarte Artaud: 	xp pro too
[16:07]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	We don't seem to have gotten through too many issues today, though
[16:07]	SignpostMarv Martin wouldn't touch Vista with a megaprim barge pole 	SignpostMarv Martin wouldn't touch Vista with a megaprim barge pole
[16:07]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	will there be a continuation of this sometime ?
[16:07]	Tomcat BnT: 	I have an update to , the issue seems to have gone. It's the appearance preview problem
[16:08]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	Could LL use their contacts with ATI to smack their driver team upside the head ?
[16:08]	Soft Linden: 	Ya. This is run for an hour every Monday, and Bridie has crashers only on Wednesdays.
[16:08]	Daedalus Young: 	and UI triage on Tuesdays
[16:08]	Daedalus Young: 	see https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Bug_triage
[16:08]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	will we continue from where this leaves off, then ?
[16:08]	Rob Linden: 	ok...interesting. since its still a problem, we can leave it open, but bump priority down to normal. If ATI fixes the driver, we will be spared implmenting a hacky workaround
[16:08]	Wyn Galbraith: 	LOL Soft.
[16:08]	Soft Linden: 	Tuesdays Benjamin Linden does some UI issue triage as part of his usability hours.
[16:08]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	corporate level correspondance is more likely to get the bug fixed than me poking them
[16:09]	Tomcat BnT: 	I have one issue with missing inventory
[16:09]	Soft Linden: 	Didn't AMD buy ATI?
[16:09]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	yar
[16:09]	Soft Linden: 	Maybe some folks should go knock on the door on ATI's island. :)
[16:09]	Rob Linden: 	I'm timing out here...thanks everyone for coming
[16:09]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	ah, ATI are in-world ?
[16:09]	Jacek Antonelli: 	Take care all
[16:09]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	MUHAHAHAA
[16:09]	Wyn Galbraith: 	ATI has an island?
[16:09]	WarKirby Magojiro smiles 	WarKirby Magojiro smiles
[16:09]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	companies need to use MMORPGs as testing modules
[16:09]	Tomcat BnT: 	The whole Library folder is missing on this account
[16:09]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	perhaps I'll visit
[16:10]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	I've seen that bug.
[16:10]	Wyn Galbraith: 	Can you enter without an ATI card ;)
[16:10]	Soft Linden: 	I'll mail the transcript up through the last issue, Rob
[16:10]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	not on this account, but on someone else's
[16:10]	Tomcat BnT: 	is that someone else's account an account created using RegAPI?
[16:10]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	i had missing library once
[16:10]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	clearing cache and relogging worked
[16:10]	Tomcat BnT: 	didn'T work for me
[16:10]	Soft Linden: 	So ya, we did run a little slow today... it's really really easy to get distracted with so many people pitching in.
[16:11]	Piero Padar: 	I have 3 notecards folders
[16:11]	Soft Linden: 	Normally we really avoid bringing up new things during the triage, instead trying to get input on as many existing issues as we can.
[16:11]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	feels good to contribute. I'll try to attend the next one
[16:11]	Soft Linden: 	The issues are picked either by the top vote count, or the age.
[16:11]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	btw Rob, ya might want to disable allow anyone to move :-P
[16:11]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	1 hour doesn't seem to be enough for the issues, though
[16:12]	Soft Linden: 	So if you have something you want considered for import, going to the JIRA and making sure the issue is there, then getting friends/customers/etc to vote helps the most.
[16:12]	Rob Linden: 	one way to scale these out would be resident run triages
[16:12]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	it'd be nice to have more than one meeting a week
[16:12]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	hmm
[16:12]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	how would that work ?
[16:12]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	SUrely the whole point of these is for linden to gather informed community opinion ?
[16:12]	Wyn Galbraith pushed the wrong button. 	Wyn Galbraith pushed the wrong button.
[16:13]	Soft Linden: 	Resident triages would be a cool way of getting more input, at least to get recommendations attached in comments or on a wiki page.
[16:13]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	I don't see it being effective without some official representation present
[16:13]	Rob Linden: 	right....and we spend a lot of time on issues that most folks here know are problems
[16:13]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	ZOMG I WANT MAH BUG FIXXORZ NOWZ
[16:13]	Rob Linden: 	(or rather, know aren't problems)
[16:13]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	^prediction of Resident-ran bug triage
[16:13]	WarKirby Magojiro nods 	WarKirby Magojiro nods
[16:13]	Soft Linden: 	Keep in mind though - we get these imported and developers still have to fix them. Fewer imports actually helps focus limited developer time if we're choosing well during triages.
[16:14]	Rob Linden: 	exactly
[16:14]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	Well
[16:14]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	the purpose of these also, is to root out those which don't need to be fixed
[16:14]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	or can't be
[16:14]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	advocating Resident-ran bug triage would indicate that JIRA is inneffective for getting an overall look at the state of bugs
[16:14]	Soft Linden: 	This is where we need to be good about pushing some issues aside if they're not high priority, or if other people can't verify that they're happening.
[16:14]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	it'd be better to encourage Residents to run through JIRA and try to reproduce bugs themselves
[16:14]	Soft Linden: 	JIRA is one tool. More tools helps if they don't add a bunch of overhead for us.
[16:15]	Rob Linden: 	actually, part of the issue is just setting the agenda well in advance
[16:15]	Angel Fluffy: 	If I may ask, how is the agenda selected?
[16:15]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	Are the most important issues (eg, broken group chat) automatically imported independant of triage meetings ?
[16:15]	Soft Linden: 	Angel - there are two saved JIRA queries, one of which will get used. There are links to those at the bottom of the triage page.
[16:15]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	fix for broken group chat would be IRC :-P
[16:16]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	and regular viewer freezing
[16:16]	Soft Linden: 	One picks the oldest unimported issues. One picks the highest-vote unimported issues, I believe.
[16:16]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	are those filters used in alternation
[16:16]	Rob Linden: 	it changes week-to-week
[16:16]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	or together?
[16:16]	Rob Linden: 	it all depends on who sets it
[16:17]	Rob Linden: 	I usually let someone else set the agenda
[16:17]	Helena Lycia: 	If you do decide to make use of resident run triage sessions Rob, I would offer to help out. I think the owner of the sims where I hang out would be happy to let triage sessions meet there... Other there might also be keen to help out too
[16:17]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	reminds folks of his pet jira: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/
[16:17]	Soft Linden: 	I think Gigs Taggart has set up the agendas more often than anyone else.
[16:17]	Angel Fluffy: 	Ok, great, thanks Soft :)
[16:17]	Soft Linden: 	If you wanted to try, he might be willing to talk about it, or it would be a good discussion for the sldev mailing list
[16:17]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	I can agree with that one
[16:18]	WarKirby Magojiro: 	I'm going to head out. It's been fun
[16:18]	Soft Linden: 	Hee. And yeah - it's okay to drop pet issues before and after triage. I voted on that one too.
[16:18]	Helena Lycia: 	Me too, gone midnight here and work tomorrow :(
[16:18]	Helena Lycia: 	Goodnight all
[16:19]	Rob Linden: 	ok...now I really mean it....time for me to go
[16:19]	Daedalus Young: 	bye
[16:19]	WarKirby Magojiro vanishes 	WarKirby Magojiro vanishes
[16:19]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	laters all
[16:19]	Daedalus Young: 	see you all later
[16:19]	Solomon Draken: 	Laters
[16:19]	Nock Forager: 	cya everyone.
[16:19]	Astarte Artaud: 	ok see you all folks :)
[16:19]	Soft Linden: 	Thanks so much for helping out!
[16:20]	Daedalus Young: 	thank you Lindens too :)
[16:20]	Angel Fluffy: 	:)
[16:21]	SignpostMarv Martin goes looking around ATI's website for the bug report tool 	SignpostMarv Martin goes looking around ATI's website for the bug report tool
[16:21]	Wyn Galbraith: 	Thanks for having us.
[16:21]	Angel Fluffy: 	Soft, I take it the reason that you don't use "All bugs by votes desc" as your sort is that there is no way to exclude bugs which are already assigned?
[16:21]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	when in doubt, use curl :P
[16:22]	Wyn Galbraith read that as when in doubt hurl. 	Wyn Galbraith read that as when in doubt hurl.
[16:22]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	lol
[16:22]	Soft Linden: 	They shouldn't really be assigned if there's no internal issue number attached to them. If they are, there's a good chance the issue's been forgotten about.
[16:22]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	should be possible to exclude "already assigned" jiras in a custom sort
[16:22]	Wyn Galbraith: 	Sight reading makes for more interesting stuff.
[16:22]	Soft Linden: 	One sec - let me get an example
[16:23]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	JIRA probably doesn't have an API, but it's got a predictable syntax in the HTML, and you don't need to log into it in order to view it,
[16:23]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	so you could curl it and write a mashup app :-P
[16:23]	Saijanai Kuhn: 	has xml tools of some kind
[16:23]	Soft Linden: 	Look at an issue like this one: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/
[16:23]	Soft Linden: 	See how there's a "Linden Lab Issue ID" on that one? That means it's in the bug tracker that developers use.
[16:23]	Soft Linden: 	If something's assigned but doesn't have one of those, it's really unlikely the developer will actually see it because it doesn't show up on his work list.
[16:24]	Soft Linden: 	So we really don't want to omit stuff that's "assigned" but not imported... because that means it's definitely not assigned internally.
[16:25]	Soft Linden: 	Gonna zoom back to work, if there's nothing else?
[16:26]	Soft Linden: 	Thanks much!
[16:26]	SignpostMarv Martin: 	I'm going to head back to my office to work on my Group Lookup service