Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2012.02.21

Simulator_User_Group
Prev 2012.02.17	Next 2012.02.24
== List of Speakers ==
Andrew Linden 	Captain Frimon 	Davido Chrome
Dizzan Humburg 	Draconis Neurocam	Fancy Detector
Flip Idlemind 	Helena Lycia 	Jonathan Yap
Kallista Destiny 	Keli Kyrie 	Kelly Linden
Liisa Runo 	Lomoco Binder 	MartinRJ Fayray
Nalates Urriah 	Qie Niangao 	Raven Juno
Rex Cronon 	Simon Linden 	Talarus Luan
TankMaster Finesmith	Tiberious Neruda 	Vincent Nacon
Yuzuru Jewell 	 	
== Transcript ==
[12:05] Fancy Detector: Kelly Linden has arrived!
[12:05] Helena Lycia: Hello Andrew and Kelly
[12:05] Vincent Nacon: just in time
[12:05] Simon Linden: Tomorrow there will be updates in the RC channels. The feature set is pretty much the same, I believe
[12:05] Keli Kyrie: Hi Andrew and Kelly
[12:06] Andrew Linden: Hello. It felt like a Monday. I was about to depart for lunch.
[12:06] Fancy Detector: Kelly Linden has arrived!
[12:06] Fancy Detector: Andrew Linden has arrived!
[12:06] Raven Juno: Order in!
[12:06] Fancy Detector: Simon Linden has arrived!
[12:06] Simon Linden: I think these notes are fairly accurate: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2012-02-13/td-p/1381397
[12:06] Talarus Luan: Pizza day!
[12:06] Flip Idlemind: Yes, yes, I've returned
[12:07] Keli Kyrie: Thank you for the link Simon
[12:07] Simon Linden: I don't have any other news outside of the release info -- Kelly or Andrew, do you have anything?
[12:07] Helena Lycia: But it's the 21st... what got deployed today? *giggles*
[12:07] Simon Linden: Nothing, Helena
[12:07] Flip Idlemind: Nothing was ready today
[12:08] Andrew Linden: We're not updating the main channel today, but we are updating the RC's tomorrow.
[12:08] Helena Lycia: So sims restart just for fun then?
[12:08] Talarus Luan: How did you end up fixing SCR-121?
[12:08] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SCR-121
[#SCR-121] Entire sim (65,536sq.m.) owned by group, llGetParcelMaxPrims(llGetPos(), TRUE) Returning odd number.
[12:08] Andrew Linden: Hrm... are we doing a rolling restart?
[12:08] Helena Lycia: My sim restarted earlier
[12:08] Helena Lycia: And I didn't ask it to
[12:08] Kallista Destiny: Regions benefit from weekly, or even more frequent , reboots
[12:09] Simon Linden: No, no rolling restarts today. Some were restarted for performance reasons, I believe
[12:09] Kelly Linden: Talarus: it caps at the region max
[12:09] Davido Chrome: Sia managed to put their simball event righ during the rolling restarts. Both the arena sim and the audience sim got restarted,
[12:09] Andrew Linden: Ah ok, so selective restarts did happen this morning, all before 09:00 SLT
[12:10] Talarus Luan: But it still returns the parcel prim count times the region number, but caps at 15000 (or less if a Homestead/void)?
[12:10] Talarus Luan: *region multiplier
[12:10] Kelly Linden: yes
[12:10] Talarus Luan: Hmm.. doesn't that seem a little more inconsistent?
[12:10] Kelly Linden: which is the behavior it had for any non-entire-region parcel
[12:11] Kelly Linden: That bug is only for when the region has only 1 parcel, the behavior was changed to match.
[12:11] Talarus Luan: Oh, OK
[12:11] Davido Chrome: I have a question about llSetRegionPos().
[12:11] Andrew Linden: Ok, so the table is open. Go ahead Davido.
[12:12] Talarus Luan: Is there any way we could just get the base prim max for a parcel without the multiplier, or get the multiplier value?
[12:12] Davido Chrome: Is it supposed to be possible to teleport in ten meters from the border at any border, not just the adjacent?
[12:12] Jonathan Yap: Teleport?
[12:13] Davido Chrome: Uh, llSetRegionPos-port
[12:13] Raven Juno: :[\
[12:13] Simon Linden: It's a move, not a TP
[12:13] Simon Linden: But you're saying you are moving 10m off the region into limbo-land where there isn't a neighbor region?
[12:13] Andrew Linden: Yes, I believe llSetRegionPos() is supposed to be able to reach 10m over any border.
[12:13] Andrew Linden: (as long as there is a neighbor there)
[12:14] Davido Chrome: No, I just got confused. And lost a telporter that i found three days later two sim away.
[12:14] Vincent Nacon: thought it was 30m
[12:14] Talarus Luan: Alve, describe what happened. May put your question from yesterday into context.
[12:14] Helena Lycia: It does go over the sim border OK but if you have several people sitting on it, it can get very nasty
[12:14] Davido Chrome: I accidentally set the destination to 266.
[12:15] Davido Chrome: But it ended up on the same coordinates, just the next sim over.
[12:15] Helena Lycia: Did you call it twice?
[12:15] Helena Lycia: Two calls of 266 would move you 2 sims
[12:15] Davido Chrome: Then it disappeared when I got off. My theory is that somone of the people sat on it after I got of and was TPed into the next region afte3r that.
[12:15] Davido Chrome: Sorry, I mean moved.
[12:16] Davido Chrome: Was a company of people there.
[12:16] Davido Chrome: First I thought that the store owner got pissed and returned it on me. Then I found it in the next sim two days later. XD
[12:17] Simon Linden: Hmm, well, it does sound like the move happened twice, or at least that was the effective outcome
[12:17] Lomoco Binder: dd 128
[12:17] Simon Linden: It should have moved to 266, which then would transfer it to the next region and it would be at 10m
[12:17] Andrew Linden: Talarus, you were asking if it would be possible to get the base prim max without the multiplier, or the multiplier. How would those be useful?
[12:18] Rex Cronon: u could add a script in it that tells u each times it gets to a new sim
[12:18] Andrew Linden: It occurs to me that the multiplier might be exposable via llGetEnv().
[12:18] Talarus Luan: Well, I rent parcels which have, by policy, the base, non-multiplied, prim limits imposed, but the script function returns the prim max times the multiplier.
[12:18] Andrew Linden: But, as far as I know neither of those numbers are currently available via LSL.
[12:19] Davido Chrome: Spiral staircase is the teleporter in question.
[12:19] Talarus Luan: I just let people go temporarily over the max by using the multiplier.
[12:19] Helena Lycia: I had a question about the "threaded region crossing" project on Magnum.... Is that hoped to "fix" all the pain of crossing region borders (on vehicles)?
[12:19] Talarus Luan: However, I would still like to know when they've been over the limit based on the parcel size settings.
[12:19] Davido Chrome: Thought I would share it with you.
[12:19] Simon Linden: It's yet another attempt to make region crossings, better, Helena
[12:19] Helena Lycia hopes it works this time
[12:19] Talarus Luan: If I had either the base parcel prim max, or the multiplier, I could at least calculate it.
[12:20] Andrew Linden: ok Talarus, I'll look into exposing the multiplier via llGetEnv() since that should be pretty easy to do.
[12:20] Dizzan Humburg: itll probably be a long time before reign crossings are 100 percent smooth
[12:20] Jonathan Yap: Could someone check the map tile generator? There was a new comment or two in svc-7629 about ongoing problems
[12:20] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7629
[#SVC-7629] Map tile generator not working
[12:20] Talarus Luan: Cool. :)
[12:20] Flip Idlemind: So Kelly I was hoping, at your meeting yesterday, to ask Charlar about his plans for testing the LR stuff. He asked for volunteers and I IMed him and said I was interested but I'm afraid I may have been too late
[12:21] Flip Idlemind: (But your meeting yesterday wasn't there)
[12:21] Davido Chrome: I really hope you give the teleport thing to the Stargate network developers.
[12:22] Talarus Luan: I need to check, but if it caps the reported number at 15000 (for a full sim), it won't work for parcels bigger than about 7k sqm in size.
[12:22] Kelly Linden: Flip: I'll make sure your request was received.
[12:22] Flip Idlemind: Thank youuu :D
[12:23] Helena Lycia: I don't care about 100% smooth. I'll settle for non-fatal region crossings with vehicles
[12:23] Talarus Luan: What's the status of that LR project for testing? I haven't heard anything about it since it was discussed a few weeks ago.
[12:23] Liisa Runo: i have heard that LL still has not found any tasks for the RL volunteers
[12:23] Kelly Linden: As far as I know there is no new status.
[12:23] Talarus Luan: No wiki doc yet either, I take it?
[12:23] Draconis Neurocam: yes jonathan ive been having map issues as well, half of the time the mainland doesnt show up at the smallest zoom level
[12:24] Jonathan Yap: If you are looking for something to test take a look at https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Pathfinding_in_Second_Life
[12:24] Davido Chrome: Smooth sim crossings would be wonderfull, right now you can't drive cross country with out crashing every three sims...
[12:24] Kelly Linden: Not that I'm aware of Talarus.
[12:24] Talarus Luan: k
[12:24] Talarus Luan: Hopefully something more soon. :)
[12:24] Davido Chrome: Oooh, I gotta play with that!
[12:25] Lomoco Binder: I'd like to ask about the upcoming pathfinding functionality, specifically relating to PATHBUG-14 (tools for aerial traversal and a general pathfinding function).
[12:25] Jonathan Yap: Only a few people have been filing pathfinding jiras, more testers are needed
[12:25] Liisa Runo: and with snowglobe i can drive around this continent for 3 times before i get my first problem border cross
[12:26] Lomoco Binder: From what I know, in its current level of implementation, the pathfinding tools are intended for ground-based characters.
[12:26] Davido Chrome: Jonathan, when I have the time and energy, you bet I will go play with that!
[12:26] Qie Niangao: "[12:20] Jonathan (jonathan.yap): Could someone check the map tile generator? ..." Yeah, that seems pretty desperately busted, and has for a couple months at least.
[12:26] Simon Linden: That's correct, Lomoco
[12:26] Jonathan Yap: Not only ground, but on the navmap
[12:27] Jonathan Yap: But that map is some kind of surface
[12:27] Lomoco Binder: Are there plans to add aerial-pathfinding functionality, or even a general llPathFind(point 1, point 2, options)?
[12:27] Keli Kyrie: Is it possible to make pathfinding work with particles. Like rain or fog so they don't go inside buildings?
[12:27] Jonathan Yap: Andrew and Simon and quiet, maybe they are looking at the map tile generator
[12:27] Davido Chrome: Sounds like it would be resource intense...
[12:28] Simon Linden: I'm silent because I'm clueless about Pathfinding details :)
[12:28] Kelly Linden: Same
[12:28] Andrew Linden: We think it is possible to do volumetric pathfinding (for flying things) however we are not working on that for the main release.
[12:28] Andrew Linden: Maybe someday in the future. Falcon says it is "not too hard, but would come with some restrictions".
[12:28] Draconis Neurocam: i believe jonathan is talking about the world map tile generator
[12:28] Davido Chrome: So, can you make a vehicle bot use these pathfinding options?
[12:28] Andrew Linden: or maybe it was "limitations".
[12:28] Draconis Neurocam: not something for pathfinding
[12:28] Talarus Luan: I doubt particles could be done that way.
[12:29] Andrew Linden: pathfinding for particles is not in the plan -- we're only working on ground-based AI characters right now.
[12:29] Lomoco Binder: For what you described, making particles not go through obejcts would be more of a physics thing.
[12:29] Andrew Linden: we'd want to do particle stuff client-side
[12:29] Simon Linden: Particles are viewer-side effect, they don't really "exist" in teh simulator other than telling viewers what they might draw
[12:30] Davido Chrome: Andrew, does it work with physical vehicles?
[12:30] Talarus Luan: Yep
[12:30] Simon Linden: So they can't be integrated with pathfinding easily
[12:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[12:30] Kelly Linden: I'm not up to date on the world map generator either - is there a jira for the issue draconis / jonathan?
[12:30] Andrew Linden: Davido, does what work with physical vehicles? Pathfinding?
[12:30] Draconis Neurocam: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7629
[12:30] Jonathan Yap: When Andrew says "ground based" that really means based on the navmesh, which can be more then just a ground surface
[12:30] JIRA-helper: [#SVC-7629] Map tile generator not working
[12:30] Davido Chrome: Yeah
[12:30] Talarus Luan: You might consider talking to the viewer people and see if they will implement "particle voids" in the viewer where particles are not drawn
[12:30] Draconis Neurocam: jonathan posted it earlier
[12:30] Vincent Nacon: doesn't work with vehicle at the moment
[12:30] Andrew Linden: You can't make a vehicle into an AI character, at least not while keeping the vehicle behavior intact.
[12:31] Talarus Luan: BUt that's a pretty scattergun approach to the problem.
[12:31] Andrew Linden: The two features are exclusive.
[12:31] Flip Idlemind: But can you sit on an AI character
[12:31] Vincent Nacon: but save that for vehicle API meeting
[12:31] Andrew Linden: However you may be able to make an AI character that looks like a vehicle and moves around.
[12:31] Rex Cronon: how many navmeshes can a sim have, and can u upload your own navmesh. if u can't upload it, how do u edit it?
[12:31] Davido Chrome: When is this fabled vehicle API meeting?
[12:31] Vincent Nacon: I dunno, whenever LL got the time for it
[12:32] Jonathan Yap: Rex, watch the video at the top of http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Featured-News/Take-a-Sneak-Peek-at-the-Pathfinding-Experiments-Being-Conducted/ba-p/1386511
[12:32] Andrew Linden: An overhaul of vehicles in SL is something Falcon would love to work on, so it is in the hypothetical future, but an an undecided date.
[12:32] Vincent Nacon: yeah
[12:32] Helena Lycia: I'd be interested in a Vehicle API meeting
[12:32] Kelly Linden: draconis: that jira has been imported and looked at, I don't have any other progress to report on it though.
[12:32] Rex Cronon: ok. thanks
[12:32] Davido Chrome: Andrew, if you open up the functions you can make the vehicle turn if there are obstacles and stuff. Just separate the path finding tools from motion completely and let us experiment?
[12:32] Vincent Nacon: could be something after pathfinding and err... few other things I'm not allowed to say
[12:32] Draconis Neurocam: alright
[12:32] Tiberious Neruda: speaking of pathfinding....
[12:32] Helena Lycia: Would that link into an avatar movement overhaul too?
[12:33] Lomoco Binder: Being able to edit the navmesh could act as a temporarily solution to the lack of non-floor traversal functionality
[12:33] Vincent Nacon: could be within this year but I wouldn't hold my hope
[12:33] Andrew Linden: Yeah, I was testing the web-based SL map and wasn't seeing problems loading the closest images.
[12:33] Tiberious Neruda: are there any plans in the works to allow rigged meshes to act kinda like a 'bot lite'? Essentially, giving a pathfinding rigged mesh object a skeleton it can use
[12:33] Andrew Linden: We may need tips on exactly where to look in the map.
[12:34] Liisa Runo: Captain Frimon, your AO is missing anim and spamming errors
[12:34] Flip Idlemind: So, it occured to me that with the upcoming ability to teleport people, it might be time for something like this: SVC-5488
[12:34] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-5488
[#SVC-5488] llGetRegionAgents() -- returns list of agent keys in the current region
[12:34] Captain Frimon: Oh wait, you can see the errors?
[12:34] Liisa Runo: all scripters see errors
[12:34] Andrew Linden: Lomoco, we considered adding custom navmesh editing on the viewer, but did not think we could get to it on time. Maybe someday.
[12:34] Captain Frimon: Ok didn't know, sorry about that
[12:34] Liisa Runo: scr-103
[12:35] Andrew Linden: In the meantime, we hope to be able to release something usable earlier.
[12:35] Vincent Nacon: in other words, that feature ends up like sculpty's flexi via alpha texture.... no where.
[12:36] Liisa Runo pokes the jira helper: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SCR_103
[12:36] Talarus Luan: SCR-103
[12:36] Davido Chrome: Yeah, but still. AS I asked, can't you separate tyhe pathfinding functions from motion completely, and just document the kind of information the path finding returns thouroughly? Then we can make our own locomotion based on what the pathfinding functions return?
[12:36] Draconis Neurocam: i think that script helper is old and doesnt have scr in it
[12:36] Talarus Luan: Hmm.. I guess it is asleep :P
[12:37] Lomoco Binder: Yes, a general llPathFind function that just returns a list of positions would be very useful.
[12:37] Jonathan Yap: Add that idea as a New Feature to the PATHBUG jira project
[12:38] Andrew Linden: llPathFind is an interesting idea, but it would fail when encountering dynamic obstacles
[12:38] Simon Linden: It looks like SCR-103 has morphed into VWR-26016, so I'm guessing that's really a viewer issue as long as the sim is still sending proper data
[12:38] Jonathan Yap: There are some issues though, the path is dynamic and can change over time
[12:38] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-26016
[#VWR-26016] Script error particle not displaying above agent when script error comes from a HUD
[12:38] Lomoco Binder: I have a rough sketch of an implementation of llPathFind that might work under PATHBUG-14 if you're interested.
[12:39] Tiberious Neruda: maybe the rigged mesh idea might be better as its own function that ties into the pathfinding code... as I'd envision being able to script it to attach items from inventory, and use actual animation assets from its contents
[12:39] Vincent Nacon: please keep in mind that Pathfinding is Never intended for vehicle stuff.
[12:39] Davido Chrome: Andrew, cmaybe you can do that with LL-Sensor allready though?
[12:39] Liisa Runo grumbles: vvwr issues take years to get fixed, and also my last comment in the JIRA
[12:40] Rex Cronon: can't u just sit on an object that is using pathfinding?
[12:40] Simon Linden: Right, Vincent. You could certianly make vehicle-like objects and sit on them, however
[12:40] Helena Lycia: We just want autopilots for our vehicles
[12:40] Davido Chrome: No, wait. You can't get prims size with llSensor, right?
[12:40] Flip Idlemind: Plus there's llCastRay, let's not forget that bit of awesomeness exists
[12:40] Lomoco Binder: Only way to get size is with llGetBoundingBox
[12:40] Vincent Nacon: basically you can have a vehicle with a "brain" that you can't control anyway
[12:41] Helena Lycia: I can't even contorl my own brain
[12:41] Vincent Nacon: which kinda derender the term of using "vehicle" to begin with
[12:41] Lomoco Binder: Also, doesn't Havok have some support for dynamic pathfinding?
[12:41] Davido Chrome: Are you certain of your ethymology there? XD
[12:42] Vincent Nacon: yes Lomoco
[12:42] Andrew Linden: llPathFind() would be sorta like llCastRay() but would cast into the navmesh and I guess return a list of points
[12:42] Andrew Linden: I could see how that would be useful, but it could also get out of date if something else blocked the path
[12:43] Andrew Linden: the current pathfinding stuff will walk around new obstacles that cut the path
[12:43] Davido Chrome: What about a llPathFindSensor?
[12:43] Jonathan Yap: You would need an event to fire if the path became invalid
[12:43] Jonathan Yap: Then you could re-request the path, get new points
[12:43] Vincent Nacon: the pathfinding is from Havok's source
[12:44] Jonathan Yap: Sort of like how a GPS reduces your track to a set of waypoints
[12:44] Talarus Luan: Is the pathfinding going to be script-based, so the NPC movement will also be script-based?
[12:44] Jonathan Yap: Talarus, see https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Pathfinding_in_Second_Life
[12:44] Davido Chrome: With somehting like llPathfindSensor we could make our own pathfinding algorithms. I am more interested in that than a prebuilt version, maybe that's just me though.
[12:44] Vincent Nacon: in a way, yes. It has few "mode" or goals type
[12:45] Andrew Linden: It seems to me that your pathing algorithms would probably run pretty slow in LSL, compared to the ones that are running in C++.
[12:45] Vincent Nacon: basic mode/goal are pursue and flee.
[12:45] Talarus Luan: Hrm
[12:45] Davido Chrome: Andrew, ah. Oh well. Would be fun though. Means I could do my AI homework in SL.
[12:45] Jonathan Yap: Aditi has 4 test regions, go there and experiment
[12:45] Andrew Linden: Falcon quotes 50microsec for a path request, but did the measurements and was getting more like 20-30 microsec per AI character, per frame.
[12:46] Tiberious Neruda: so there's no "attempt to get to X defined point as best as possible"-type goals?
[12:46] Jonathan Yap: Tiberious, yes, pathfinding will take the best route if there is a choice
[12:46] Vincent Nacon: there is... sort of
[12:46] Vincent Nacon: not as "best possible" but to the nearest goal
[12:47] Vincent Nacon: or the nearness possible goal for that matter
[12:47] Vincent Nacon: nearest*
[12:47] Tiberious Neruda: so, for example, if you needed an NPC to walk up a flight of stairs, you'd be better off plotting the points it turns at landings?
[12:48] Vincent Nacon: if there's no other ways getting up there, no need to
[12:48] Jonathan Yap: Tiberious, you just tell it to go from where it is to the top of the stairs,if it can fit it will take that route
[12:48] Tiberious Neruda: ah
[12:48] Rex Cronon: u could use an NPC as kind of guide dog to guide your vehicle:)
[12:48] Tiberious Neruda: heheh
[12:48] Simon Linden: THe video on that page shows how some ramps and stairs will work out
[12:48] Davido Chrome: That's a fun idea!
[12:48] Tiberious Neruda: mmk
[12:48] Jonathan Yap: If it is too fat for your stairs and there is another way it will take that one
[12:48] Kallista Destiny: if it walks in front with a red flag.
[12:49] Vincent Nacon: like let's say you're trying to get a bot go to a bed room from front door instead of backdoor and the bot is in the back yard.
[12:49] Helena Lycia: Who's going to make the first SL guide dog?
[12:49] Rex Cronon: :)
[12:49] Simon Linden: great question, Helena :)
[12:49] Tiberious Neruda: I mean, I'm just trying to get a feel for what it can/can't do
[12:49] Vincent Nacon: instead of directly sending the bot to the bedroom, just give him position to the front door, then to the bedroom
[12:49] Jonathan Yap: I filed a bug on the "guide dog" scenario
[12:49] Andrew Linden: Vincent, you first navigate the bot to the back door, then from there navigate to the room
[12:49] TankMaster Finesmith patents breadables that follow you around..
[12:50] Andrew Linden: hrm... however even in that case the "best" path might be around to the front again
[12:50] Davido Chrome: So this pathfinding feture requires waypoints?
[12:50] Andrew Linden: especially if something was blocking the back hallway
[12:50] Kallista Destiny: would it not go through the house from the back to the frint ?
[12:50] Lomoco Binder: Being able to control avatar movement via scripts would open up a lot of possibilities. Pathfinding in conjunction with scripted avatar movement could lead to much richer environments, because a non-agent mesh NPC can't be animated.
[12:50] Jonathan Yap: You can give it waypoints for patrollling, but otherwise none needed
[12:50] Vincent Nacon: what I mean is, some times you have to provide a pre-step position to make the bot go through the path properly
[12:50] Vincent Nacon: instead of giving it a straight direction
[12:51] Jonathan Yap: If there is a path from where it is to the destination it will figure it out
[12:51] Davido Chrome: Next feature, Ressable NPC avatars?
[12:51] Vincent Nacon: can't go from A to Z without going through M and R first
[12:51] Vincent Nacon: or other wise... it'll just go from A to Z... backward
[12:51] Jonathan Yap: For non-ground items the region owner has to have configured the steps, etc. as part of the navmesh
[12:51] Andrew Linden: We're not working on pathfinding for avatars, but I think it would be a cool feature.
[12:52] Tiberious Neruda: oh... quickie question, not about pathfinding, but about avatar movement... why does the avatar act like it always has a friction value of 1.00? I'd think there would be some pretty cool uses for being able to make the av slide after movement, as if on ice
[12:52] Andrew Linden: Maybe later when we've got this current project complete.
[12:52] Davido Chrome: Andrew, how about allowing bot avatars that you res, that run without a client?
[12:52] Jonathan Yap: Is there a rough release date for pathing?
[12:52] Andrew Linden: Not yet Jonathan.
[12:52] Vincent Nacon: David... don't you mean llRezObject() ?
[12:53] Tiberious Neruda: Alve: that would cover what I'd mentioned earlier
[12:53] Nalates Urriah: lol... yes the date is typical Linden... when its ready.
[12:53] Simon Linden: .... or slightly before :)
[12:53] Davido Chrome: Andrew, no, I mean if you can res an avatar, with all the avatar animations.
[12:53] Draconis Neurocam: haha
[12:53] Tiberious Neruda: ouch...!
[12:53] Andrew Linden: Tiberious, the avatar control code is pretty old. It is hard to change/enhance without breaking other stuff.
[12:53] Lomoco Binder: The SL Military community would really benefit from having scriptable avatars
[12:53] Nalates Urriah: lol ... good one Simon
[12:53] Talarus Luan: That's typical game/software/vw dates.
[12:53] Talarus Luan: "When it is ready; when we're done; etc"
[12:54] Tiberious Neruda: hey Simon, step away from the fire, you're burnin' yerself there... LOL!
[12:54] Davido Chrome: Andrew, basically and avatar without a user running it from a client. That you can script instead.
[12:54] Draconis Neurocam: "Ship It"
[12:54] Andrew Linden: so the answer to your question is... the code is too fragile to attempt sliding on ice at the moment. It would reqiure significant cleanup first. A rewrite, really.
[12:54] Simon Linden: AlveKatt - that's an interesting idea about NPC AVs, however. It brings up a million questions, but I wonder if some sort of in-world object that was like an AV would be possible
[12:54] Talarus Luan: I prefer it, I just wish we could get some other stuff focused on that's been hanging out there blocking creative development for ages. :-/
[12:54] Tiberious Neruda: Simon: count me as interested in that too
[12:55] Davido Chrome: Simon, that would really rock.
[12:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[12:55] Lomoco Binder: Being able to animate rigged meshes that aren't agents would solve that problem.
[12:55] Tiberious Neruda: I've noticed that if you're on a frictionless surface, you DO keep sliding on... but ONLY while in the "soft land" or "Hard land" animations...
[12:55] Helena Lycia: Andrew, if and when the vehicle review happens, maybe consider avatar movement at the same time.... create a unified system that allows veichles and avatars to move in the same way
[12:55] Kallista Destiny: Like this you mean?
[12:55] Simon Linden: lol, I can see if we went down that pass, we'd end up scripting our AVs to have fun while we're logged out
[12:56] Talarus Luan: I would dearly love to be able to control the movement speed of avs via script.
[12:56] Lomoco Binder: It wouldn't be an "agent" per say, but it would open up a lot of possibilities for the creation of richer experiences.
[12:56] Davido Chrome: But maybe ressable avatars would be easier to implement than rigged meshes? I mean, if it works the same way you could put a Mesh avatar on it.
[12:56] Tiberious Neruda: Talarus: That's possible now
[12:56] Talarus Luan: Right now, to slow down/speed up avs, I have to use very inefficient physics calls
[12:56] Helena Lycia: You can now Tal, with llSetVelocity but it's a real hack (and probably evil on script time)
[12:56] Talarus Luan: I know.
[12:56] Tiberious Neruda: I have a HUD that uses llSetForce on the av in the local positive X direction
[12:56] Talarus Luan: I wrote a soccer game that uses that hack, and it is a SEVERE PAIN IN THE TAIL which doesn't work well in lag.
[12:57] Helena Lycia: I ahve a JIRA somewhere about wanting vehicle-type movement for avatars that I riased 3 years go
[12:57] Talarus Luan: The scripting is arguably the worst set of hacks I have ever had to write.
[12:57] Helena Lycia: llSetForce isn't good at slowing an avatar down, only speeding it up. llSetVelocity can slow an avatar down quite easily
[12:57] Tiberious Neruda: true
[12:57] Talarus Luan: ..and it STILL doesn't work well.
[12:58] Tiberious Neruda: but once you CUT that llSetForce, the av slows down on its own
[12:58] Talarus Luan: I need llSetAgentSpeed(<walkspeed>,<runspeed>);
[12:58] Vincent Nacon: if friction where applied, yes
[12:58] Tiberious Neruda: works well for my purpose
[12:58] Helena Lycia: What about fly speed?
[12:58] Jonathan Yap: falling speed too, etc?
[12:58] Tiberious Neruda: but because the avatar is in 'controllable' state, there IS friction
[12:58] Helena Lycia: Would be nice to get realistic swimming wihtout a horrible hack too
[12:58] Talarus Luan: Well, I don't need fly speed for the soccer game, but sure.
[12:58] Rex Cronon: if u rez a cage around your ave, and slowly move it, it will also move the ave
[12:59] Tiberious Neruda: lemme put the av on
[12:59] Lomoco Binder: The rigged mesh approach (vs the scriptable avatar) would be a better implementation, as it would be more consistent, but also because just giving avatars the ability to be animated AND scripted limits the type of rigging you can do to the avatar form.
[12:59] Vincent Nacon: aye
[13:00] Davido Chrome: Would be nice to get Swimming in water period. As it is now, if the sim is no fly and the banks are steep, you are kinda stuck down there.
[13:00] Helena Lycia: In any case, llSeTAgentSpeed would be a ppor solution.... I want to be able to make an avatar bank and turn and loop-the-loop like a vehicle can
[13:00] Talarus Luan: The problem is that the force required to speed up/slow down an av is an order of magnitude greater than the speed moved when no controls are imposed.
[13:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[13:00] Tiberious Neruda: that's true
[13:00] Vincent Nacon: alrighty, that's a wrap
[13:00] Talarus Luan: So I force the av to move at 0.5m/s, and when they let up on the movement control, it throws them back at 20m/s
[13:00] Kelly Linden: o/
[13:00] Talarus Luan: Until I remove the force.
[13:00] Helena Lycia: Yeah Tal
[13:00] Tiberious Neruda: and I end up with this huge problem where being in the air causing the force to have a MUCH greater effect
[13:00] Simon Linden: that sounds exciting, lol
[13:01] Helena Lycia: llSetVelocity works much better in that regard
[13:01] Helena Lycia: But you keep having to call it on every control event
[13:01] Tiberious Neruda: but there's the question... how long does llSetVelocity last on an av?
[13:01] Talarus Luan: However, in lag, the delay in getting the control event means the farther/faster they get tossed around.
[13:01] Helena Lycia: Not long at all
[13:01] Tiberious Neruda: .05 seconds? More? Less?
[13:01] Helena Lycia: It will move you at the desired speed, as long as you call it every time the control event is triggered
[13:01] Talarus Luan: and no, llSetVelocity doesn't work for an always-on control event, sadly. I tried it. :-/
[13:02] Talarus Luan: Because the viewer imparts its own velocity in the av movement.
[13:02] Helena Lycia: And you stopp pretty gick when you take your fingers off the keys too
[13:02] Simon Linden: I have to get moving ... thanks everyone for coming today
[13:02] Lomoco Binder: Ta ta.
[13:02] MartinRJ Fayray: goodbye everyone :)
[13:02] Talarus Luan: I have to take controls over completely for that to work
[13:02] Vincent Nacon: alrighty, gotta run, take care all
[13:02] Davido Chrome: Thanks!
[13:02] Liisa Runo: thanks everybody
[13:02] Tiberious Neruda: ah.. but my HUD takes the relevant controls and DOESN'T pass them on
[13:02] Andrew Linden: Yes, that is right. llSetVelocity() will actually set the velocity of the object at that moment.
[13:02] Keli Kyrie: Thanks you Simoon
[13:02] Yuzuru Jewell: See you.
[13:02] Talarus Luan: Ciao. :)
[13:02] Rex Cronon: tc everybody
[13:02] Qie Niangao: Thanks, all. Have fun!
[13:02] Helena Lycia: I have used llSetVelocity to control an avatar's speed
[13:02] TankMaster Finesmith: tc simon
[13:02] Andrew Linden: If the object were to hit an obstacle it would bounce
[13:03] Talarus Luan: Yeah, in a 20-person soccer match, the lag means that player controls are horribly unresponsive and it gives people headaches trying to move around the field.
[13:03] Andrew Linden: in the case of an avatar, the avatar control code will try to slow it down quickly -- if the actual "controls" coming from the viewer say it is not going anywhere.
[13:03] Talarus Luan: If I take controls completely.
[13:03] Helena Lycia: Yeah
[13:04] Andrew Linden: and yeah, it the avatar is bumped into the air, then its ability to stay standing still is greatly reduced, and pushes can push it much faster.
[13:04] Helena Lycia: llSetVelocity over terrain is a mare too, you have to do some nasty stuff to work out exactly what velocity to set
[13:04] Davido Chrome: I don't think SL is made for 20 person games.
[13:04] Talarus Luan: It's just a big pain in the arse all around. I'd like to be able to control the speed/force applied to the av directly, rather than depending on a hack with control events in a laggy script setting.
[13:04] Davido Chrome: Simball works very well, but it's three to a team.
[13:04] Tiberious Neruda: agreed
[13:04] Tiberious Neruda: ...or a better idea...
[13:05] Talarus Luan: a physics hack, that is
[13:05] Tiberious Neruda: ...an integrated AO and avatar handling wearable
[13:05] Andrew Linden: interesting ideas, I'll try to think about those some more
[13:06] Talarus Luan: Well, you /can/ do 20-person games; of course they're gonna be a tad laggy, but the idea is to find ways to reduce the lag and make the games better.
[13:06] Helena Lycia: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4335
[13:06] JIRA-helper: [#SVC-4335] New features to improve movement options for agents
[13:06] Talarus Luan: This would be one of those things.
[13:06] Andrew Linden: per-agent walk/run/fly speed might not be too hard... not sure
[13:06] Tiberious Neruda: I had to use the HUD to cut the 'prejump' out for this av too
[13:06] Helena Lycia: Andrew...
[13:06] Andrew Linden: it has been a while since I looked at that code
[13:06] Captain Frimon: Sweet
[13:06] Helena Lycia: I raised that JIRA about avatar movement a long time ago - https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4335
[13:06] JIRA-helper: [#SVC-4335] New features to improve movement options for agents
[13:07] Talarus Luan: The LIGA people would kiss you if you could make that happen, Andrew. :D
[13:07] Talarus Luan: Me? I'd pull out a few less scales. :P
[13:07] Andrew Linden: ok Helena, I'll try to read that jira.
[13:07] Tiberious Neruda: maybe I'd be able to simplify the mess out of this HUD
[13:08] Andrew Linden: Thanks for coming everyone.
[13:08] Talarus Luan: Take care, Andrew. :)
[13:08] Nalates Urriah: Thk u
[13:08] Helena Lycia: A small part of that, there's not an Avatar Center attachment point
[13:08] TankMaster Finesmith: thx for your time, andrew
[13:08] Keli Kyrie: Thank you Andrew
[13:08] Helena Lycia: (only a very tiny aspect *giggles8)
[13:08] Tiberious Neruda: huh?
[13:08] Tiberious Neruda: Firestorm has that.... what're you talkin' 'bout?
[13:08] Helena Lycia: Has what?
[13:09] Tiberious Neruda: Avatar Center
[13:09] Davido Chrome: This is a Simball board BTW.
Simulator_User_Group
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