Board Thread:Bible Games/@comment-29251550-20160723212758/@comment-29251550-20160726203729

SouthWriter wrote:"The source of your username is irrelevant. The fact that you chose to use it here, and only here (so far) reveals much about your purpose." What you just said proved my point earlier.
"If a finite entity revealed himself "once" to you, and then you never saw him again, you would still believe he or she existed." Yeah, but that doesn't mean those it didn't reveal itself to would believe.
All people will eventually believe in God's existence.  To some, it will be in this world.  Sadly to others it will be at Judgment day.  At that time Every person will worship Him Isa. 45:23; Rom. 14:11 and Phil. 2:10.
"God has been revealing Himself from the very beginning of time to select persons." That's the problem. He only reveals himself to a few people. If he revealed himself to the entire planet at once, that would solve the problem once and for all.
Oddly, it is not for us to tell the Creator of the Universe how He should do His business.  However, He tells us through the Apostle John that "every eye shall see him.Rev. 1:7" 
"Backing up "claims" in His Word was done by the agency of people He trusted." What's that suppose to mean?
It means that God revealed to His people, the writers of the Bible, what He is like.  He showed them miracles and told them things that would happen before those things happened -- some a long time before. Finally, He sent Jesus Christ to show that it was all trueHeb. 1:1-4. 
"He conversed with Adam, walked with Enoch, gave instructions to Noah, called Abraham, and showed Himself to Moses and the tribes of Israel in "safe" manifestations. He spoke to prophets and confirmed His word through miracles and fulfilled prophecies." That's not backing up claims.
Though the Old Testament has much that was written long after it happened (though some is contemporary to that which occurred), such things as the letters from Paul1 Cor. 15:1-8 and the Gospel of LukeLuke 1:1-4 (and the companion book of ActsActs 1:1-4) were written within the lifetime of eyewitnesses.  If they were not true, they would have been rejected.
"You both claim that God cannot "use a book" and then say that all you know about Him is from that book." I said you can't use the book to prove he exists. I've read about the horrible acts he's committed, yes, but that doesn't really prove whatever you're getting at.
What I am "getting at" is that the Book itself is a record of God acting in the past.  You treat it as a source, while at the same time denying that He exists.  You show no knowledge of the many portions that praise God for the good that He does.
"You want want God to make a "personal appearance" just for you, or at least for someone you know." I didn't say just for me, I meant for the whole world. Then this whole thing could be resolved.
God has revealed Himself to the whole world, but most of the world rejects the evidence.  In his signature treatise within a letter, the Apostle Paul reminds his readers of this.  Of course, it is not "evidence" as such (being only the words of a man who "claims" to have had communication with God), but it is reflected in the experience of millions.  He wrote: "that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God has shown it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seenRom. 1:19-20, and see context.." 
"God does not move someone by request." I said nothing about moving.
"It is not something you "make happen,"" Did I say I had to make it happen?
"though if you happen to ever actually feel His leading, it will be proof that he IS moving." No it won't.  
I am going to answer your three responses in this one paragraph. To my "If and when God moves you, you will know what I mean."  You wrote "I don't think there will be any "moving." So I know you know what I mean. I did not claim you said any such thing, I was just explaining how things work. When God moves, He does so when and where He wants to do so. Your denial of this does not change the truth. It remains my prayer for you that God will show Himself to you.
"Prayer is a word that we use in the English language that means to make a request of One we trust will answer." That doesn't mean it works.
"It is foolish to ask for something from someone who you don't trust and expect an answer." But the thing is, if God actually did answer prayers, and I mean REALLY answer them, it would be a good way to prove his existence, but he doesn't even do that.
"That prayer "doesn't work" for you does not prove that it doesn't work for others." It's just words. Words don't solve problems. Action does.
Again, I will answer three related responses at once. I don't think you get my point. "Prayer" is an old word that now means only requests of a deity. However, it is a translation of common words for asking and requesting for things from those you hope will respond. You ask your parents for things, and probably your friends as well. Millions of people have seen REAL answers to prayer -- very specific at times -- that proved to those people that the Creator is not a faraway entity, but a One to Whom they can come in time of trouble. It is not the prayers that change things, but God who ACTS in answering those prayers.
"To recap, Your original protest has been adequately answered. Christians, by definition as followers of Christ, do not look down from heaven and laugh at "innocent" people burning in hell." I said they SAY that they will.
My point is, REAL Christians don't act that way in heaven. These Christians you mention, if truly Christians, are mistaken. They imagine themselves safe in heaven and reacting to distant smoke of their enemies Rev. 15:9-11. But the following verses clearly indicates the attitude of those there will be patience and worship of JesusRev. 15:12-13.
"The one case when one person looks from heaven (Lazarus with Abraham) to hell (an unnamed rich man) is in a parable spoken by Jesus. In that case, there is no glee, but only an admonition to the guilty man" What guilty man?
"FA attempted to paint a picture of hell in many colors, but the point is, there are no "innocent" folk in hell." Oh, so people who have different views than you aren't innocent at all? Is that it?
Since these two remarks follow up a thought of mine, I will deal with them both here. I point out the man in the parable pleading to Abraham for relief. This man, in life, was an arrogant rich man who had no mercy on a poor sick beggar at his gate. The beggar dies and, in this world probably thrown into an unmarked grave (if that), while the rich man receives the best funeral his money can buy. That is the guilty man in question.
If you read the Bible for more than the incidences of God's justice, you would see the REASON that judgment is necessary in the first place. Going all the way back to Adam and Eve, everyone -- no one is excluded but Jesus -- has sinned. Nobody is innocent. That includes me, you, the Pope, and even Mother Teresa. The good news is that God has mercy on a vast multitude of these sinners. The Bible is full of these stories, and most Christians will tell you it is their personal experience.
Read Paul's letter to the Romans (especially the first half). In particular: Rom. 3:23; 5:8 and 6:23. These three point to the problem, the solution and promise that God reveals in His Word, the Bible.
"You have claimed that the "only evidence" Christians have given you is the Bible." Well it is.
"If this is so, then you have not known any Christians that live a life that reflects the character of God, as seen in Jesus." Excuse me?
This evidence is much more convincing than any words on a page, though a mind prepared by God will see Him in His Word." But a book doesn't prove something.
What part of this gives you pause? You seem shocked that your limited experience is inadequate. I point out that the "proof" you are looking for does not come from a book, but from the experiences of real people over a period of thousands of years. Some wrote about it, others, all over the world, continue to experience this interaction with God. Some can show from evidence outside of the Bible the high probability that God exists. Meanwhile all you can say is "a book doesn't prove something." I never claimed that it does in and of itself. But it does present an accurate record in the midst of many biased reports from self-grandising kings and other officials. That should stand for something.
"Your six points, based on the premise that you do not believe God exists apart from direct contact, is largely spot on." I said if he actually did reveal himself to more people, even the whole world, that would solve things.
This is the problem with a summary statement, trying to say too much with too little. In agreeing with you, I confused you. Yes, God does not reveal Himself to the world in a dynamic way, as we might do if we were God, but every day, all around you, He is revealing Himself in small ways to those who have eyes to see it. He IS solving things. When He solves things in a BIG way, it will not be pretty. It was not pretty with the flood in Noah's timeGenesis 7:21-23. It was not pretty with the crucifixion of JesusJohn 19:1, 16-30 (but the Resurrection was GLORIOUS!). And it will not be pretty on Judgment DayRevelation 19:11-21. But God WILL solve things. 
"All people will eventually believe in God's existence.  To some, it will be in this world.  Sadly to others it will be at Judgment day." But we don't really know who's God will reveal itself. For all we know, Vishnu might be the true God. Maybe it might not even be a God from any religion, not even yours.
"At that time Every person will worship Him" Not me. After seeing what he's done in the Bible, I don't really see him being worth worshipping.
"Oddly, it is not for us to tell the Creator of the Universe how He should do His business." But he does his job improperly.
"It means that God revealed to His people, the writers of the Bible, what He is like.  He showed them miracles and told them things that would happen before those things happened -- some a long time before. Finally, He sent Jesus Christ to show that it was all true" You can't just reveal yourself once and expect those you didn't reveal yourself to to believe it happened.
"You treat it as a source, while at the same time denying that He exists." I said I've read it. It doesn't mean I believe anything in it is true. What I do know is that God commits act of murder, destruction, genocide, and narcissism in the Bible.
"You show no knowledge of the many portions that praise God for the good that He does." So outright murder is good?
"God has revealed Himself to the whole world" When?
"but most of the world rejects the evidence" What evidence?
"Millions of people have seen REAL answers to prayer -- very specific at times -- that proved to those people that the Creator is not a faraway entity, but a One to Whom they can come in time of trouble." I'll respond to that with a theory of mine. It's FAKE evidence. For example, if there's a disabled person who wants to be able to walk again, they'll wait until the final 12 hours, then pray to be able to walk again.
"It is not the prayers that change things, but God who ACTS in answering those prayers." But he doesn't even do THAT.
"My point is, REAL Christians don't act that way in heaven." People are both good and bad, whether they believe in a God or not.
"These Christians you mention, if truly Christians, are mistaken. They imagine themselves safe in heaven and reacting to distant smoke of their enemies" Then they must imagine ALOT of innocent people burning in Hell.
"I point out the man in the parable pleading to Abraham for relief. This man, in life, was an arrogant rich man who had no mercy on a poor sick beggar at his gate. The beggar dies and, in this world probably thrown into an unmarked grave (if that), while the rich man receives the best funeral his money can buy. That is the guilty man in question." But what I mean is, most Christians will say that they will watch from Heaven as innocent people (who no doubt have different views than them) burn in Hell.
"Going all the way back to Adam and Eve, everyone -- no one is excluded but Jesus -- has sinned. Nobody is innocent. That includes me, you, the Pope, and even Mother Teresa." So even babies aren't innocent? Makes PERRRRRFECT sense.... NOT!
"The Bible is full of these stories, and most Christians will tell you it is their personal experience." So they were there when God destroyed cities, unleashed plagues, butchered children, and FLOODED THE ENTIRE PLANET?
"I point out that the "proof" you are looking for does not come from a book, but from the experiences of real people over a period of thousands of years. '''''Some can show from evidence outside of the Bible the high probability that God exists" Do they have photos? Or videos? And even if God does exist, is he really worth worshipping?
"Meanwhile all you can say is "a book doesn't prove something."" Well it doesn't.
"But it does present an accurate record in the midst of many biased reports from self-grandising kings and other officials." All I'm saying is, whenever asked about God and his existence, most Christians will say "says so in the Bible". Also, one time, there was a train wreck, and a firefighter managed to pull a single baby out. Instead of giving him the credit, the people gave GOD the credit, and they COMPLETELY forgot about the people who DIDN'T survive. If I was trapped in a fire, and a firefighter, or somebody else who was in the area, pulled me out, I wouldn't give God the credit, I'd give whoever got me out the credit.
"Yes, God does not reveal Himself to the world in a dynamic way, as we might do if we were God, but every day, all around you, He is revealing Himself in small ways to those who have eyes to see it." How? By playing cosmic peek-a-boo?
"It was not pretty with the flood in Noah's time" But that didn't solve the problem at all. In fact, those who weren't evil also suffered, such as babies, children, grandmothers, and everything else that wasn't on the Ark.
"It was not pretty with the crucifixion of Jesus" But Jesus didn't go to Hell for all eternity, so it didn't really solve anything.