105406-how-pve-and-pvp-can-co-exist-better

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Every major MMO I've played has the same problem, it seems impossible to appease both the PVE fan base and the PVP fan base. It comes down to favoring one or the other. Even WOW hasn't balanced PVP. Wildstar broke MMO tradition with an action style combat system so maybe they can break the tradition with solving the eternal PVE vs PVP battle. Years ago, someone had the idea to create PVP gear which forever changed how all MMOs handle gear. They separate PVE gear from PVP gear, yet gear has never been the biggest problem with PVP. The biggest problem has always been ability balancing. So why hasn't the industry separated PVE abilities from PVP abilities the same as gear?
 
Here's how the idea works: 
Take all the same abilities each class has and copy those tabs.	Then put "PVP" in the front of the tab name. (Resulting in 6 tabs total)	Now rename all the abilities to make it easier to distinguish whether the PVE or PVP spell gets its eventual nerf or buff.	Restrict the use of PVE spells in battlegrounds, arenas and warplots.
What I have never understood is why people make things more complicated than they have to be. Why would a programmer ever want to solve the problem of "how do I nerf this spell because it is OP in PVP without hurting it's use in PVE"? Why ask a question requiring two answers when you can design it so the question only requires one answer? The best way to answer questions is to simplify the question if you have the means and programmers have the means.
 
Even if you use the same exact abilities and animations but just make copies, and then nerf/buff them separately for PVP and PVE, I think you would revolutionize the MMO industry. Because then you can finally cater to both PVE fans and PVP fans. And most importantly, you make programmers jobs easier because now they only have to focus on one question which would be "How do I make this ability more balanced in just PVP?". The goal of this is to separate PVP and PVE while also taking into account programmers time and cost of maintenance. Don't forget that the biggest cost is time. So if doing a little extra work to copy, paste and rename abilities seems too much upfront, then I want you to think about how much faster programmers can solve issues when they only have to think one dimensional on how to balance a spell.
 
Now for battlegrounds, arenas and warplots this idea can easily be implemented because PVE abilities can be restricted in these areas. The biggest flaw that I can see is how world pvp will be handled. Maybe someone else can suggest an answer or maybe it can be coded to know when players are fighting one another. But in my own opinion, world pvp is not where most people want pvp to be balanced. I don't see this as the priority. It is my assumption that the majority of players would be perfectly happy with a balanced battlegrounds, arenas and warplots. We can come back to world pvp at another time.
 
 	
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			Carbine has already said a be fat NO to this.  Though this has been a source of many a good knee slapper in MMOs out there watching companies try to balance both on the same plate.  They can either be balanced for PVE or PVP but not both.  Pick one, balance for it and extend middle fingers into the eyes of the other.	
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			It was on one of their feeds.	
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Carbine has already said a be fat NO to this.  Though this has been a source of many a good knee slapper in MMOs out there watching companies try to balance both on the same plate.  They can either be balanced for PVE or PVP but not both.  Pick one, balance for it and extend middle fingers into the eyes of the other.
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Every major MMO I've played has the same problem, it seems impossible to appease both the PVE fan base and the PVP fan base. It comes down to favoring one or the other. Even WOW hasn't balanced PVP. Wildstar broke MMO tradition with an action style combat system so maybe they can break the tradition with solving the eternal PVE vs PVP battle. Years ago, someone had the idea to create PVP gear which forever changed how all MMOs handle gear. They separate PVE gear from PVP gear, yet gear has never been the biggest problem with PVP. The biggest problem has always been ability balancing. So why hasn't the industry separated PVE abilities from PVP abilities the same as gear?
 
Here's how the idea works: 
Take all the same abilities each class has and copy those tabs.	Then put "PVP" in the front of the tab name. (Resulting in 6 tabs total)	Now rename all the abilities to make it easier to distinguish whether the PVE or PVP spell gets its eventual nerf or buff.	Restrict the use of PVE spells in battlegrounds, arenas and warplots.
What I have never understood is why people make things more complicated than they have to be. Why would a programmer ever want to solve the problem of "how do I nerf this spell because it is OP in PVP without hurting it's use in PVE"? Why ask a question requiring two answers when you can design it so the question only requires one answer? The best way to answer questions is to simplify the question if you have the means and programmers have the means.
 
Even if you use the same exact abilities and animations but just make copies, and then nerf/buff them separately for PVP and PVE, I think you would revolutionize the MMO industry. Because then you can finally cater to both PVE fans and PVP fans. And most importantly, you make programmers jobs easier because now they only have to focus on one question which would be "How do I make this ability more balanced in just PVP?". The goal of this is to separate PVP and PVE while also taking into account programmers time and cost of maintenance. Don't forget that the biggest cost is time. So if doing a little extra work to copy, paste and rename abilities seems too much upfront, then I want you to think about how much faster programmers can solve issues when they only have to think one dimensional on how to balance a spell.
 
Now for battlegrounds, arenas and warplots this idea can easily be implemented because PVE abilities can be restricted in these areas. The biggest flaw that I can see is how world pvp will be handled. Maybe someone else can suggest an answer or maybe it can be coded to know when players are fighting one another. But in my own opinion, world pvp is not where most people want pvp to be balanced. I don't see this as the priority. It is my assumption that the majority of players would be perfectly happy with a balanced battlegrounds, arenas and warplots. We can come back to world pvp at another time.
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Someone saw my Rift Mirror Souls post...
https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/105339-wildstar-the-amazing-game-that-failed-to-be-what-it-could-be/page-2&do=findComment&comment=1082629
 
 
Shamelessly attempting to take credit for my genius. Tsk tsk
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Every major MMO I've played has the same problem, it seems impossible to appease both the PVE fan base and the PVP fan base. It comes down to favoring one or the other. Even WOW hasn't balanced PVP. Wildstar broke MMO tradition with an action style combat system so maybe they can break the tradition with solving the eternal PVE vs PVP battle. Years ago, someone had the idea to create PVP gear which forever changed how all MMOs handle gear. They separate PVE gear from PVP gear, yet gear has never been the biggest problem with PVP. The biggest problem has always been ability balancing. So why hasn't the industry separated PVE abilities from PVP abilities the same as gear?
 
Here's how the idea works: 
Take all the same abilities each class has and copy those tabs.	Then put "PVP" in the front of the tab name. (Resulting in 6 tabs total)	Now rename all the abilities to make it easier to distinguish whether the PVE or PVP spell gets its eventual nerf or buff.	Restrict the use of PVE spells in battlegrounds, arenas and warplots.
What I have never understood is why people make things more complicated than they have to be. Why would a programmer ever want to solve the problem of "how do I nerf this spell because it is OP in PVP without hurting it's use in PVE"? Why ask a question requiring two answers when you can design it so the question only requires one answer? The best way to answer questions is to simplify the question if you have the means and programmers have the means.
 
Even if you use the same exact abilities and animations but just make copies, and then nerf/buff them separately for PVP and PVE, I think you would revolutionize the MMO industry. Because then you can finally cater to both PVE fans and PVP fans. And most importantly, you make programmers jobs easier because now they only have to focus on one question which would be "How do I make this ability more balanced in just PVP?". The goal of this is to separate PVP and PVE while also taking into account programmers time and cost of maintenance. Don't forget that the biggest cost is time. So if doing a little extra work to copy, paste and rename abilities seems too much upfront, then I want you to think about how much faster programmers can solve issues when they only have to think one dimensional on how to balance a spell.
 
Now for battlegrounds, arenas and warplots this idea can easily be implemented because PVE abilities can be restricted in these areas. The biggest flaw that I can see is how world pvp will be handled. Maybe someone else can suggest an answer or maybe it can be coded to know when players are fighting one another. But in my own opinion, world pvp is not where most people want pvp to be balanced. I don't see this as the priority. It is my assumption that the majority of players would be perfectly happy with a balanced battlegrounds, arenas and warplots. We can come back to world pvp at another time.
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I never played Rift so never trolled those forums lol. But I apologize anyway!
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The first problem is that, especially on a PVP server, PVE and PVP happen seamlessly and often at the same time.  So having separate abilities doesn't work.  You noted this at the bottom in world PVP, but there are also areas of BGs where PVE becomes important, such as when dungeon bosses are leashed in Warplots.
 
The second problem is that they already do this with the numbers, and that's not what gets nerfed in favor of PVP and PVE balance, it's usually cooldowns and CC abilities (the old "stunlock" debate).  In fact, there ARE abilities (especially path abilities) that are disengaged in PVP arenas and BGs because they'd be overpowered.
 
The third problem I see with this is that it's addressing a problem that only "kind of" exists.  Believe me, if doing what you've suggested would work (and I'm not saying it's beyond the realm of possibility), it wouldn't solve the actual problem.  PVE and PVP seem to be at loggerheads because they tend to blame each other for the others' problems.  In reality, there are PLENTY of MMORPGs that prioritize one over the other if not completely omitting one over the other, and they STILL have posts about balancing issues and class hate.  It's not that I'm saying integration would be a necessarily bad thing, I'm just saying it doesn't solve the problems you would think it solves.  People will always complain that you should "reroll X class if you want a raid spot" or "Y class can just facedesk and win at PVP."  That's older than the dirt.
 
If I thought it would solve the issue of people getting on the forums to get angry about it, I would try to figure out precisely what can be divided out that isn't yet and what can't be.  However, I just don't see this fixing a real problem.  It's more important to fix things in terms of both (i.e. when Warriors lose overall DPS to a nerf, they will need extra threat to tank, especially if their threat generation is low already).
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Great points! I only have thing I can even come back with and that is the bosses in warplots. The bosses can easily be scaled when unleashed in warplots since you will know the capabilities of pvp abilities.
 
Everything else you said is on point and I would have to agree.
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I have something we can chew on.
 
What if abilties "tier up" as you level up in PVP or PVE, and those abilites (maybe amps or ability points) are activated only in dungeons/raids or in BGs/warplots/etc.  I mean, open world, that makes things too inflexible, but instanced content isn't like that.  And, really, that's where the problem of balance seems to be felt the most directly.  That way, characters aren't initially balanced for PVE or PVP, they're balanced for the open world.  Their AMPS and ABILITIES (and why not even extra stats and things like the length of stuns, tethers, et al) are balanced specifically in instanced content.
 
That way, open world combat doesn't suffer and isn't needlessly complicated; the skill is always the skill.  But, as you skill up in PVP or in PVE, you gain specialized stats and abilities (I believe they already do this to an extent) and those absorb the balancing for the other combat.
 
Let's take the medic for example.  Medic single target damage needed to be raised for raiding and AOE damage was too high for PVP.  That creates a tug of war that will see Medic AOE abilities nerfed in PVE and single target buffed in PVP.  Let's also assume this wasn't how they wanted it to go down (I'm not sure that's the case, but for this theoretical example, PVE AOE and PVP ST damage is working as intended).  Their open-world abilities stay the same, if not get both nerf and buff to some extend.  However, the important part is that you can use, let's say elder gems, to purchase a buff to single target damage for a medic in dungeons/raids.  That way, you don't get the buff in instanced PVP content, you DO get the necessary buff in instanced PVE content, and it doesn't matter quite so much in the open world.  Now let's say that everyone else can use PVP currency, maybe ELO, to purchase an AOE damage reduction (eat 5% less damage in PVP instanced content).  That way, you can tune your character to eat damage from medics better.  And all this means people have more to work towards in the game in both PVE and PVP.
 
(I'm one of those people that thinks endgame currencies should be uncapped, I should mention).
 
That simplifies the process a bit.  It means that, if medics end up doing TOO MUCH single target, that ability alone can get nerfed a bit, rather than dropping ALL their ST damage across the board.  And if AOE damage is becoming too trivial, they can simply reduce the buff people are using to eat the damage by a percentage point or so.  Or they could add an ability that, in instanced PVP content for medics, anyone who eats a dot from a medic field too often starts stacking a vulnerability or damage debuff.
 
It'd be easier to do than trying to balance the entire game all at once, but also easier than splitting the entire set of abilities in two.  Modifying abilities for the instanced stuff may be the answer here, since that's a lot easier to tune, as you said (it certainly is easier to scale a boss down in a warplot since, obviously, they know they're in a warplot).  And, in the end, they can leave the open world stuff largely alone unless it needs balanced across the board.
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Great idea! Accomplishes the same goal! I just truly believe that some company needs to try looking at PVE and PVP differently. The tried and true model just isn't working. You can never get rid of all the hate but you can mitigate it. The only downside is what you said about the elder gem cap. How long of farming must one do to get the PVE and PVP stats they want? And how long would it take a new person joining the game to "catch up". I'm really against the AMP and Ability points taking 9 months of farming to get. We would have to iron out how all these "modifiers" are gained. You would also have to ask yourself, will adventures/dungeons require modifiers to complete or can you do them with base spells? This then impacts how difficult PVE content becomes. Close one rabbit hole and open another lol
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Balf are you still rifting ? I haven't played in ages I might have to login and see what's up.
 
dust off the old cleric.
 
What I would like to see Carbine steal from Rift is the damn wardrobe it just works so well.	
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The first problem is that, especially on a PVP server, PVE and PVP happen seamlessly and often at the same time.  So having separate abilities doesn't work.  You noted this at the bottom in world PVP, but there are also areas of BGs where PVE becomes important, such as when dungeon bosses are leashed in Warplots.
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