102040-carbine-we-cant-reroll

== Content ==
			
Here is the deal. I'm playing stalker and I'm enjoying it in PvP. But I don't really like this class in dunjeons. That's my problem, I know that. 
 
I should reroll to play a PvE char that suits me. So I could switch between stalker (to PvP) and the other class (to PvE). Aaaaand here's the problem : you've "extended" the life of the game with this system : get 140 gems each week and spend 400 of them to get an ability point (or 300 for a bonus AMP). How many of us can play enough to fulfill those goals for two characters ? 
 
I really like to play two classes, but I also like optimization. Sadly, we can't optimize two characters (in less than two years or XXXX hours of farming).
 
 	
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			this whole Gated ability points is a load of bull in my opinion...........	
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			Alt's aren't hardcore.	
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Here is the deal. I'm playing stalker and I'm enjoying it in PvP. But I don't really like this class in dunjeons. That's my problem, I know that. 
 
I should reroll to play a PvE char that suits me. So I could switch between stalker (to PvP) and the other class (to PvE). Aaaaand here's the problem : you've "extended" the life of the game with this system : get 140 gems each week and spend 400 of them to get an ability point (or 300 for a bonus AMP). How many of us can play enough to fulfill those goals for two characters ? 
 
I really like to play two classes, but I also like optimization. Sadly, we can't optimize two characters (in less than two years or XXXX hours of farming).
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You are kidding, right?  It takes about 1 hour to do a full run of dailies, and maybe 3 of them (once a day of course) to cap out your points.  Thats 6 hours a week for two characters.  If you cant do that, you dont have the time to play two characters in the first place.  You can also get those upgrades from PvP, removing the need to grind EP completely on your stalker.
 
How lazy and entitled can you get?
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You are kidding, right?  It takes about 1 hour to do a full run of dailies, and maybe 3 of them (once a day of course) to cap out your points.  Thats 6 hours a week for two characters.  If you cant do that, you dont have the time to play two characters in the first place.  You can also get those upgrades from PvP, removing the need to grind EP completely on your stalker.
 
How lazy and entitled can you get?
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It only takes a year(maybe two) of elder gem capping to get all your amps/ability points.
 
Filthy casuals expecting access to things within a year.
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What about them?  The OP specifically said he had a toon reserved for PvP, so your point is irrelevant.
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Good things these things can drop from loot bags and be sold then, right?   If all you do is grind EP, you can get them all within 42 weeks, or a little over 10 months.<snip>
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Actually my point is pretty on topic.
It's hard to have an alt and it's extremely punishing to reroll with the current system, even more so for people who hate PvP, because it takes so long to get the tier and amp points.
 
For instance, in my case, I started out leveling a dps Medic when the game released, only to find out after I wasted all this time getting him to 50 and gearing him up that they're crap and nobody wants one around.
I rerolled to stalker, and I had to start all the *cupcake*over again with my EP, attunements, gearing it up, etc.
 
So what happens when a patch rolls around that craps on your class and you have to reroll? We all know it's going to  happen at some point. Today it's dps medics, but eventually it's going to be a different class, and everybody who was that class is going to be shunned and have to start over again if they want to participate in whatever the current content is.
 
It doesn't make sense for it to be so difficult to get something like tier points and amp points when it's so damn close to being a necessity.
And it doesn't make sense that it's easier in PvP than in PvE to get these items, when they're not PvP specific upgrades.
 
If Carbine doesn't start catering to "filthy casuals" just a little bit more, your precious "hardcore" MMO is going to die. Period.
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			Regardless of the OP, gated progression locked behind weekly limits is just one more poor decision by Carbine, most likely as a result of copying older and weaker games.What purpose does limiting elder gems per week serve other than to artificially slow down players in a game which is already laden with mechanics designed to extend the time investment in your character. Attunement, random rune slots on gear, excessively rare drop rates for key amps, and other factor such as character specific rep grinds all make switching characters gets harder and harder the more you invest in one.It should not be any surprise that a game with multiple classes and races, in addition to two opposing factions with different stories, will attract players who want to enjoy alts. And yet carbine has seemingly decided to set up the game in such a way to actively discourage switching characters.No one should be surprised that there is anger and confusion about this.	
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That's my problem, I know that. 
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So let me get this straight, you are angry because the system doesnt encourage you to reroll FOTM classes every patch by facilitating the process?  Wow, so evil!  You do realise that you essentially admited to being one of the most obnocious and toxic kind of MMO players by arguing that nerfs means you HAVE to reroll, right?   These things are nowhere near a necessity.  Thats your own obsession with being "teh 1337 OP class mang!" talking.  What you are talking about has *nothing* to do with casuals: casuals dont reroll many toon, and they are not obsessed with being FOTM. 
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So let me get this straight, you are angry because the system doesnt encourage you to reroll FOTM classes every patch by facilitating the process?  Wow, so evil!  You do realise that you essentially admited to being one of the most obnoxious and toxic kind of MMO players by arguing that nerfs means you HAVE to reroll, right?   Not a good way to garner sympathy.
 
These things are nowhere near a necessity.  Thats your own obsession with being "teh 1337 OP class mang!" talking.  What you are talking about has *nothing* to do with casuals: casuals are not obsessed with being FOTM, and they dont consider having every available upgrades unlocked a necessity. 
 
 
Yes, because no one in the game has seen Trigger finger drop.
 
Oh wait.  Most of our SS have it by now.  I wonder how that could have happened!
 
QQ moar.
 
 
Did you ever read the word hardcore in my post?  Oh wait no you did not, you would much rather build giant strawmen than having to face actual arguments.  Dont we all love logical fallacies?  You know, like the one you use to imply that buying upgrades require people to spend $?  Cause ingame currency is sooooo hard to make!  Oh wait!  And I'll assume you were not aware you could get Elder Points by running instances, right?  Or is playing the game too grindy for you? 
 
Im hardly saying the game is perfect.  For exemple, the loot system is completely fupudav and triple RNG drops should never have made it to live.  But this?  This is your bone to pick?  Sorry, thats just sad.
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As far as I can tell, you're the angry one here. 
[...]
 
It's fine to take several months to get a character to end game. It's ridiculous for it take to take a year. Like it or not, "filthy casuals" are a huge part of the gaming community. The easier it has to have fun, the more this game will thrive, and I would rather have a bustling, thriving community than one full of stuck up, stubborn and obnoxious assholes like you.
 
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Im angry?  Hardly, im stuck at worked right now, so "bored" is closer to the truth.  Just because I dislike things, like FOTM rerollers, doesnt make me angry. 
 
Here is the issue: end game = level 50.  The end.  I have been raiding as a guild tank, but according to you I havnt even reached end game because I do not have all upgrades.  Do you not see how ridiculous your position is?   Would you also argue that someone dressed in blue gear is not at the end game yet because he doesnt have BiS in all his slots?  Because thats essentially what you are saying about amp and ability points upgrades.  You are just building this huge strawman, and thats why i simply cannot take you seriously.
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			Bring on account wide Elder gems / Gold / Mounts ;)	
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			The word you're looking for is 'WON'T' hun.  As in We WON'T re-roll.  And thats ALL on you.	
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very true. i tried to re-roll an SS. however, i felt super discouraged by thinking that i have to go through the whole leveling and the elder gem process so i stopped. i love my stalker though, but its NOT that fun in pve especially when you compare it to pvp.
 
i think with time and expansions the leveling process will be easier but thats sometime before they actually do that, if they gonna do that lol 	
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			Why aren't stalkers fun in PVE?	
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Regardless of the op, gated progression locked behind weekly limits is just one more poor decision by carbine, most likely as a result of copying older and weaker gams.
 
Whar purpose does limiting elder gems per week serve other than to articially slow down players in a game which is already laden with mechanics designed to extend the time investment in your character. Attunement, random rune slots on gear, excessively rare drop rates for key amps, and other factor such as character specific rep grinds all make switching characters gets harder and harder the more you invest in one.
 
It should not be any surprise that a game with multiple classes and races, in addition to two opposing factions with different stories, will attract players who want to enjoy alts. And yet carbine has seemingly decided to set up the game in such a way to actively discourage switching characters.
 
No one should be surprised that there is anger and confusion about this.
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Make amp/ability point unlocks apply to all future characters.
 
Bam. They can still have their obscenely long time sink for the moment, but current players who stick with it won't be punished as much for having alts (Actually would be rewarded for it). It would also actively encourage alts as you could unlock multiple at a time due to multiple sources of elder  gems.
 
But then you run into guilds that require you to have a multitude of alts and such to ensure you have all your amp/ability points. The problem never ends~	
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Why aren't stalkers fun in PVE?
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Yea, I noticed my post didn't reflect my feelings accurately so I edited it a little.
 
But besides that,  having a conversation with you is a little tedious because you're one of those people that feels any opinion but their own is ridiculous, so I'm pretty much done with it. I've explained my feelings and that's it.
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Nils Kriger makes it sound like upgrades drop like candy from pvp.
 
I just watched a twitch stream last night and the dev specifically said they were 1 in 10 million.
 
I've been pvping since the day of release, not one amp upgrade out of a bag, so don't make it sound like "you can" and your lazy if you haven't.
 
Fact is you're supporting things that were not the focus of an MMO ever, the tedious purchasing and vendor items are ridiculous and they've taken it to
another level my making us purchase ability upgrades and amps, forcing us to do dailies.
 
This controlled environment wasn't the way these games were enjoyed before, this is the product of marketing the complainers to make them more happy
and feel they have an equal chance to be just like anyone else.
 
As long as the devs keep making systems that sell items on vendors like a cash shop and control how much of something you can get before you buy something these games will truly have no adventure
and exploration, they will be bound by dailies. Honestly all the items you see on vendors should be rare spawn drops, items you group for to camp mobs and explore open dungeons, should be a drop out in the game somewhere in the first place not purchased by doing repetitive whiner dailies,
 
The game will never get better, none of them will. These games are seriously pathetic lately.
 
It's much easier to complain than it is to shut up and put in the hard work, and recent generations have no ability to shut their mouth and do the hard work.
I know first hand my 5 year old can't shut up to save his self from getting in trouble.
 
Once these kids seen that complaining got what they wanted it changed the way games were developed, and here we sit playing Wildstar of Warcraft...all over again.	
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And Trigger fingers drops from dungeons.
 
Whats that old saying? Screenshots or GTFO
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Nils Kriger makes it sound like upgrades drop like candy from pvp.
 
I just watched a twitch stream last night and the dev specifically said they were 1 in 10 million.
 
I've been pvping since the day of release, not one amp upgrade out of a bag, so don't make it sound like "you can" and your lazy if you haven't.
 
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			I never actually got my first toon to 50 before I ended up rerolling another one. Technically, then, the whole skill-point-etc. issue at end game doesn't affect me. I guess that's kind of a solution, though probably not the one the devs were hoping for.	
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Now you're just trolling.  I've seen 3 skill unlocks and 1 amp for sale in the last week alone.  Go away?
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Let individual characters swap classes; but retain added Amps / LAS / ability points. 
 
FFXI did this well. One character; can change classes at will; retaining progression in each class seperately; but when account extras (e.g. extra amp points in W*) were obtained they could be used regardless of class.
 
As for the folks in here who said silly things like capping your completely ancillary and unnecessary extra amp points / ability points and LAS slots shouldn't take a year.... why not? When XI first came out it took 5-8 months to hit level cap for frequent casual players. This super fast leveling stuff is much more recent than MMO's in general. Heck it takes months to hit cap on RO on official servers.... 
 
extra amps/ ability points / LAS slots are not necessary for content or progression. They are fluff; who cares how long it takes to 'cap' them?	
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			Funny part is that those "hard core players" finnish the "hard" content and leave in order to play the next AAA mmo, so this game that is focused to that "hardcore" players  is going to be dead by october. mark my words.	
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this whole Gated ability points is a load of bull in my opinion...........
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Definitely not alt friendly imo.
 
Wildstar has many interesting classes and I personnaly would love to play at least three of them, but that is just beyond possible. 
Wildstar aka Grindstar won't allow it unless gaming becomes you're full time hobby priority. Well guess what, I play to get entertained and to have fun after work, not to indulge in a second job.
 
The purpose here is of course to make us sub as long as possible, and there's nothing wrong with willing to retain customers, they're running a business, not a charity.
 
However, instead of coming up with artificial, tedious and punishing means to make us stay  they should find ways to make us stay because we are actually having fun and not because we feel forced to. I know some we'll answer "the definition of fun varies between players and I don't feel forced to play", but I read and hear so many complaints about Grinstar not being fun at level 50 that I believe I'm far from being the only one to think like that
 
EDIT: Talking of walls preventing players from truely enjoying the game:
https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/102094-carbine-youd-have-alot-more-people-still-playing-if/.	
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It only takes a year(maybe two) of elder gem capping to get all your amps/ability points.
 
Filthy casuals expecting access to things within a year.
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			I have a better idea, just completely remove the ability/amp power ups so people can have nothing to spend EG on and whine about that instead.	
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Definitely not alt friendly imo.
 
Wildstar has many interesting classes and I personnaly would love to play at least three of them, but that is just beyond possible. 
Wildstar aka Grindstar ...
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100% agree with OP. Cancelled my sub not 5 minutes ago.
 
I'm an altoholic, I want to see *everything* a game has to offer, and will put hours in to getting an achievement etc but the AMP/LAS/SP gating, the near-complete depopulation of my friends list over the last few weeks and seeing only 1 name other than my own with less than 3 weeks since last login in the guild has drained the last of my patience.
 
I rolled a Warrior intending to tank, only to be told that warrior threat was bad and to go dps instead. I got a lucky drop of TF while levelling my warrior, so thought my SS would be a better bet and started to focus on levelling her instead, only to see the exodus mentioned above.
 
I'm confident enough in my gaming history that any accusation of "casual" or "carebear" will be unfounded, nor will any such attempt to play the man instead of the ball be responded to. Address the issues, ad hominem attacks just further toxify the community.
 
Unlike many, I liked the crafting (at least armourer) and had crafted a basic Epochos set with less than stellar power cores just to get myself up and running, but the sheer number of attempts required to get an optimal set is dispiriting. If it was a matter of SKILL or EFFORT I'd be champing at the bit. Make me find a rare spawn that drops a special Power Core of Runeslot Perfection, I'll be there with sword in hand. Tell me to keep trying over and over and pray to RNGesus? You can stick that system up your *cupcake*.
 
It feels to me, from a psychology standpoint, that by aiming this game at a "hardcore" crowd that Carbine have made a rod for their own back. Because it's natural to want to believe yourself the best, or at least one of them, anyone who feels their self-image threatened will attack anyone with whom they disagree. It's something you see a lot in other walks of life - parents vs the childfree for example. Someone who wants to make a choice directly opposed to the one you made for yourself, despite having no impact on you personally, gets attacked because their choice is perceived as a slight on your own self-image.
 
I hope those of you that stay enjoy the game, it was fun as hell until 50, but I look at my friends list, grey and silent, and the thought of levelling my SS with noone online to banter with, eyes on the distant prospect of hitting 50 then finding a complete bunch of strangers rather than the people I've gamed with for 14 years to raid with, fills me with boredom. If I want a hardcore solo game, you'll find me in impossible ironman XCOM.	
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Here is the deal. I'm playing stalker and I'm enjoying it in PvP. But I don't really like this class in dunjeons. That's my problem, I know that. 
 
I should reroll to play a PvE char that suits me. So I could switch between stalker (to PvP) and the other class (to PvE). Aaaaand here's the problem : you've "extended" the life of the game with this system : get 140 gems each week and spend 400 of them to get an ability point (or 300 for a bonus AMP). How many of us can play enough to fulfill those goals for two characters ? 
 
I really like to play two classes, but I also like optimization. Sadly, we can't optimize two characters (in less than two years or XXXX hours of farming).
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Here is the deal. I'm playing stalker and I'm enjoying it in PvP. But I don't really like this class in dunjeons. That's my problem, I know that. 
 
I should reroll to play a PvE char that suits me. So I could switch between stalker (to PvP) and the other class (to PvE). Aaaaand here's the problem : you've "extended" the life of the game with this system : get 140 gems each week and spend 400 of them to get an ability point (or 300 for a bonus AMP). How many of us can play enough to fulfill those goals for two characters ? 
 
I really like to play two classes, but I also like optimization. Sadly, we can't optimize two characters (in less than two years or XXXX hours of farming).
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I'm guessing they want you to progress one character as much as possible... it's an RPG after all. This alt thing is nice, but with one game finally giving you more than enough to do, one character is more than enough. So if you want to play 2 beau the play style doesn;t suit you, then I think you have to go through the motions.
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If Carbine doesn't start catering to "filthy casuals" just a little bit more, your precious "hardcore" MMO is going to die. Period.
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I wish that someone would post actual stats to back up these things. the PVPers figure if they arent catered to the game will die, now you are saying that if the casuals arent catered to the game will die, they say they are the "heart and soul" and now you do too.
 
personally, I am not hardcore, I am not casual, and I am most definitely not a pvper. I have 5 characters, and playing them all and having a blast. I dont exactly feel penalized by the system because it gives me something to do, and will later on as well. not sure when playing an mmo went from being long term to wanting everything within a couple weeks. seems more like gamers ADD to me, get it fast so you can move on to the next game feeling worthwhile.
 
from a business perspective makes more sense to have people playing your product long term instead of catering to the short term hoppers which will leave anyway once they get their shinies.
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I don't think its much of an rpg.
 
Not many games are anymore.
 
All those extra skills and extra amps and extra abilities mean nothing if there's only one build you can use to complete things.
 
Pigeon hole MMO's need to go, it's silly.
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Make the game fun for all and stop nerfing one to balance the other.
 
Fix things on both ends, not just push content for one while ignoring the other.
 
Add costumes and housing stuff while addind pvp objective and pve stuff.
 
I know it's a lot to ask, but you know... keep all the players happy?
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Make the game fun for all and stop nerfing one to balance the other.
 
Fix things on both ends, not just push content for one while ignoring the other.
 
Add costumes and housing stuff while addind pvp objective and pve stuff.
 
I know it's a lot to ask, but you know... keep all the players happy?
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"I cant have this so its unfair!"
 
"I think this takes too much time!"
 
"Why does PvP'rs get this and i dont?"
 
Seriously, get out of this game before you destroy it. This is NOT a game for casuals, this is NOT a game for anyone who thinks serving everything up on a silver platter is fun.
 
I so wish the good old days to be the good days today, but when i see posts like this i see that gamers havnt evolved, they have devolved.	
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the only way to stop the nerfing is to remove pvp. I think thats not a real option. or to completely separate pvp from pve. however that would be a core change so likely not an option either
 
pvp stuff if you think about it is generally easier to add than pve because of the cheap AI (players)
 
you cannot keep everyone happy, WoW has been around for years and even THEY cant do that. as much as it would be nice to be able to do so, some people will not have as much fun as others. that is why there are so many games out there
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"I cant have this so its unfair!"
 
"I think this takes too much time!"
 
"Why does PvP'rs get this and i dont?"
 
Seriously, get out of this game before you destroy it. This is NOT a game for casuals, this is NOT a game for anyone who thinks serving everything up on a silver platter is fun.
 
I so wish the good old days to be the good days today, but when i see posts like this i see that gamers havnt evolved, they have devolved.
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Normalize PvP stats and gear. Everyone loads in with same stuff. Make it about personal/group skill as opposed to who started collecting goodies first.
 
Would this not work?
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Normalize PvP stats and gear. Everyone loads in with same stuff. Make it about personal/group skill as opposed to who started collecting goodies first.
 
Would this not work?
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How lazy and entitled can you get?
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Problem is that without personal character progression alot of the fun in pvp will go away for alot of ppl. Leaving it kinda deserted. We need gear to matter some and to make it worthwhile to get, atleast in non-rated games. In rated games i would agree that normalizing everything would be the only way to go.
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			I really wouldnt mind re-grinding eldergems (heck all ive bought with them is the key and manta flair) but I hate being told, nope you're done for the week, go play something else.	
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			I'd be down for account-wide elder gems, and no weekly cap.	
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			Remove the weekly cap, sure, but give us diminishing returns. So let's say 140 gems at the pace we have now, then give us diminishing returns where progress of earning EG is slowed down significantly. It would let people who have the time grind and not feel as held back while those of us who don't have the time still get to earn our 140 a week plus a few extra just playing the game. Perhaps it would be possible to let you choose whether you want to earn gold or more EG once you've hit the soft cap of 140. The point is to let people who have the time grind for it though.	
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"I cant have this so its unfair!"
 
"I think this takes too much time!"
 
"Why does PvP'rs get this and i dont?"
 
Seriously, get out of this game before you destroy it. This is NOT a game for casuals, this is NOT a game for anyone who thinks serving everything up on a silver platter is fun.
 
I so wish the good old days to be the good days today, but when i see posts like this i see that gamers havnt evolved, they have devolved.
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All PvE MMO will always be "pigeon hole" mmos.  What happened was that information on the game's inner workings became widely available through internet while, at the same time, PvE performance became tied to DPS meters.   These two factors mean raiding games will always be about min/maxing and optimal specs. 
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Regardless of the OP, gated progression locked behind weekly limits is just one more poor decision by Carbine, most likely as a result of copying older and weaker games.
 
What purpose does limiting elder gems per week serve other than to artificially slow down players in a game which is already laden with mechanics designed to extend the time investment in your character. Attunement, random rune slots on gear, excessively rare drop rates for key amps, and other factor such as character specific rep grinds all make switching characters gets harder and harder the more you invest in one.
 
It should not be any surprise that a game with multiple classes and races, in addition to two opposing factions with different stories, will attract players who want to enjoy alts. And yet carbine has seemingly decided to set up the game in such a way to actively discourage switching characters.
 
No one should be surprised that there is anger and confusion about this.
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"I cant have this so its unfair!"
 
"I think this takes too much time!"
 
"Why does PvP'rs get this and i dont?"
 
Seriously, get out of this game before you destroy it. This is NOT a game for casuals, this is NOT a game for anyone who thinks serving everything up on a silver platter is fun.
 
I so wish the good old days to be the good days today, but when i see posts like this i see that gamers havnt evolved, they have devolved.
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Remove the weekly cap, sure, but give us diminishing returns. So let's say 140 gems at the pace we have now, then give us diminishing returns where progress of earning EG is slowed down significantly. It would let people who have the time grind and not feel as held back while those of us who don't have the time still get to earn our 140 a week plus a few extra just playing the game. Perhaps it would be possible to let you choose whether you want to earn gold or more EG once you've hit the soft cap of 140. The point is to let people who have the time grind for it though.
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This is all pretty standard in MMOs...
 
The point is hey don't want everyone getting geared up and finishing all the content before they have a chance to add more. Every MMO does this, some to a lesser extent
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