120916-welp-thought-id-like-it-page-2

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why have so many players fun with playing TES in "Godmode" ?
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It helps, but it's not required.
Playing with a Roccat Savu and Isku keyboard, and running dungeons, adventures and raids just fine.
WildStar is not about having the best hardware and the most macro's set up.
 
Wildstar is about understanding it's core concepts.
You can score gold in a dungeon with just 4 DPS abilities, 2-3 Interupts and 1-2 CC breakers/Movement abilities.
Your goal is not to burst down the boss in the fastest possible time, but to make sure the boss get's no chance to actually cause damage on you.
Most of the mechanics in all these dungeons and raids can be completely negated by using proper interupts and CC breakers.
 
As was advertized at the launch WildStar:
 
 
This ain't Azeroth, cupcake!
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Just saying that it helps and that 'I' (le me) probably wouldn't be able to to do the movement, aiming + using skills if I wasn't using a Naga. But then again my left hand really sucks at doing anything except stroking my beard. ;)
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They have run out of things to do that they WANT to do, chum.
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Actually, raiders are getting a new DS in Drop 4. Remember? It had to be completely retuned for them because not enough of them could coordinate into 40-person groups, even though this game's endgame progression was tailored to be a raider's dream come true. 
 
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Razer Naga, helps ALOT to be honest. I don't know if I was able to play the game properly without one. I doubt it. But with it, it's awesome fun. =)
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I have no idea what TES is, but I feel safe in assuming that anyone that finds a way to make their char "Godmode" in any game where it's available, it isn't just the casual players doing it.  I can see what you're trying to say there, but again, what does that have to do with people insulting casuals by saying we want to turn W* into, we need it to be, an easy-mode game?  Why think that's what we want?  Because there's people that find this game too difficult?
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TES=The Elder Scrolls (Morrowind,Skyrim).
Sry I didn't want to insult anyone.
I can understand, that players want an easyer mode in W*. Although that's not my personal intention. I like the gamem the challenge, as other do.
But many want to play a game in a more chilling and komfortable way, and because W* doesn't offer that, they quit. So the OP.
And anyone should seriously consider this. It's no solution, if the game stays the way it is, without change, because it will have no chance to survive, due to player lack.
Carbine has recognized that, and as far as I can see, they are reacting. If they have found the right solutions for new, casuals, and establihed players, to drive the game to an acceptable success, I don't know.
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TES=The Elder Scrolls (Morrowind,Skyrim).
Sry I didn't want to insult anyone.
I can understand, that players want an easyer mode in W*. Although that's not my personal intention. I like the gamem the challenge, as other do.
But many want to play a game in a more chilling and komfortable way, and because W* doesn't offer that, they quit. So the OP.
And anyone should seriously consider this. It's no solution, if the game stays the way it is, without change, because it will have no chance to survive, due to player lack.
Carbine has recognized that, and as far as I can see, they are reacting. If they have found the right solutions for new, casuals, and establihed players, to drive the game to an acceptable success, I don't know.
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			Vic, I kind of want to vote for you now. Not sure what for, but you have my vote anyway.	
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VicVanMeter for president please!
 
Edit: OMG Slyjeff you stole my thought LOL.. posted this at the same time apparently	
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This thread explains perfectly why the game is in its dead state. The "hardcore make things super challenging" argument won over the devs back in development.
 
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And the people that do find it too difficult to play are vastly outnumbered by the casuals that like it the way it is and I'd venture a guess they're even outnumbered by the few casuals that don't find the game difficult enough.
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question.......do you turn with your keyboard or mouse?
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			And if you have been a PC player (Wildstar only platform), then player should guess turning was done with the legacy A and D, Instead of the faster mouse, and its the 1st thing you go and change ASAP.	
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But not all the fault is Carbine. I have a friend that had an utterly wrong WoW warrior build and rotation when it was tree based. And like him, I have found lots of people with wrong builds, or lacking mechanics like not interrupting mobs for example in all MMOs I have been.
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VicVanMeter for president please!
 
Edit: OMG Slyjeff you stole my thought LOL.. posted this at the same time apparently
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No, really not. I don't know why you keep thinking this. This is making a massive assumption about people's preferences that I have not observed anywhere in game. Most PvErs really like the dungeons. The biggest complaints are not being able to get queues to pop. I can't imagine very people run dungeons because they've run out of stuff to do and so, well, they might as well run some dungeons.
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And that's the point. We're talking about the ones the game DOESN'T retain, remember? According to you based on TT's quote that you still haven't linked to, many of them don't run the dungeons--heck, many don't even ENTER the dungeons, at least based on your interpretation of what he said. When they get to the point where that's what they're left with to do, instead of even trying it out, they leave.  If they try the dungeons and leave, the problem is that the dungeons are too hard or not fun in some way. If they leave before ever even entering them, they never wanted to try them in the first place.
 
And if the ones who don't like dungeons leave then of course the ones who stay like the dungeons. But if the queues won't pop, I would call that inconsistent with your position that everyone just loooves the dungeons unless you're arguing that the queue system is broken. And since you like the dungeons and raid, no surprise that the people you play with also like dungeons and raid. Most of the people I play with don't. 
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The problem is that Wildstar provides a range of options.  In theory, this should mean you have something to do whether you feel like mindlessly working through solo quests, putting together a well-organized 20 man progression raiding team, and everything in between.  In practice, internal dissonance within the playing population means people present a front where they want challenging content that won't require them to work hard, group content that won't inconvenience them with a group, and progress that they can already be at the end of to get the rewards.
 
That's not some kind of veiled jab at the playerbase, that's just human nature.  
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			I dont like the click sound or the size of the orbweaver so im still using the nostromo razer version ive been using the speedpad since belkin first introduced them i cant live without it i love it so much, this is 3rd one im on. Ive worn the previous 2 out, the movement pad also isnt as sketchy and sensitive on the forward movement like the orb	
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I use the cheapest keyboard I found at Wal-Mart, and an MX518 (for people who don't know this mouse it only has 2 extra buttons, which I use for push-to-talk and auto-walk), and I'm still doing DS40 just fine. This game is all about understanding and executing the mechanics, not so much about how good you comp setup is.
 
And yes this game is not like all the other MMOs, it is closer to Dark Souls than WoW.	
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 :rolleyes: Nice to see that you're making a veiled jab at all humanity, then. "People want group content without groups"? Seriously, are you that arrogant?
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 :rolleyes: Nice to see that you're making a veiled jab at all humanity, then. "People want group content without groups"? Seriously, are you that arrogant?
 
What they want is more than one ending to get the same grade of rewards, chum. This isn't rocket science and it hasn't been some kind of big secret. They want to be able to do as well as raiders do with challenges that don't force them to become raiders in the process. 
And the raiders, as a group, will not tolerate that. And so far at least, the raiders have been able to stem the tide on that one and retain supremacy in the game because there's no other option available, at the expense of the game's overall playerbase and sustainability.
 
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As a casual raider, I won't deny that I "won't tolerate that." There's a couple reasons behind that. A single individual, committing time and held accountable only to oneself by oneself, should not be rewarded as much as a single individual committing time to others, held accountable to others by oneself and others. It's really just that simple. You can disagree; I say "can," but I think it's pretty obvious that you do. It's just a difference of opinion really. I feel this way, you feel that way. This is how I think it should be, that is how you think it should. However, this is how it is. This is how I hope it stays. That's not saying I don't think there needs to be more hard as balls solo content because there totally does. I like playing in groups, but I also like playing by myself a lot more. However, I accept that since I am raiding, I probably won't find an upgrade in any solo content. In fact, I expect that to be the case. I would be upset if it weren't the case because it would mean the hundreds of hours I have spent wiping, learning, and progressing has been trivialized by a drop from a solo instance. No thank you. It's an MMO; to me, someone that loves soloing short of raids and a dungeon here and there, I expect to have to play with other people to get the best stuff and I don't think thigns I can get 100% by myself should even be remotely relevant by comparison. 
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I think yasfan has in mind a system where you have to put in just as many solo hours as you'd have to put in raid hours to get an equivalent drop.
 
Whether this is technically feasible is questionable, but the idea is *not* to make it so you can more quickly do solo content in order to get raid level gear.
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I think yasfan has in mind a system where you have to put in just as many solo hours as you'd have to put in raid hours to get an equivalent drop.
 
Whether this is technically feasible is questionable, but the idea is *not* to make it so you can more quickly do solo content in order to get raid level gear.
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I think that last sentence is the issue.  Raid content presents challenges that simply cannot be incorporated into solo content due to the number of players required and the complications that that presents. I can understand the desire for challenging and rewarding solo content, heck I'd probably give it a shot too, but that I don't know how the two can't really be compared accurately in terms of investment vs rewards.
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And that's the point. We're talking about the ones the game DOESN'T retain, remember? According to you based on TT's quote that you still haven't linked to, many of them don't run the dungeons--heck, many don't even ENTER the dungeons, at least based on your interpretation of what he said. When they get to the point where that's what they're left with to do, instead of even trying it out, they leave.  If they try the dungeons and leave, the problem is that the dungeons are too hard or not fun in some way. If they leave before ever even entering them, they never wanted to try them in the first place.
 
And if the ones who don't like dungeons leave then of course the ones who stay like the dungeons. But if the queues won't pop, I would call that inconsistent with your position that everyone just loooves the dungeons unless you're arguing that the queue system is broken. And since you like the dungeons and raid, no surprise that the people you play with also like dungeons and raid. Most of the people I play with don't. 
 
 
First off, I think I found your quote on my own. Feel free to confirm, and if it's not, feel free to provide the link.
 
 
 
Nowhere in that quote does TT mention that the analysis was restricted to normal modes while leveling. Nowhere does he proclaim that a love of dungeons is the reason why people stay. Heck, he doesn't even say that it's the "best predictor" of why people stay, at least in this quote. All he says is that "players who did any dungeon were significantly more likely to stick around".
 
So actually, unless you have a more relevant quote, I do deny that based on Carbine's metrics, Carbine believes that the thrill of dungeons is what keeps people in the game. I think they know better already. I think they're well aware that most players who play this type of game spend most of their time playing solo. I think they know it because both Gaffney and Frost have said so publicly multiple times. 
 
Feel free to back up your conclusions about what TT said with what TT actually said whenever you'd like.
 
He started his OP with "caters to hardcore guilds" and he ended his OP with "caters to hardcore guilds".
 
He said that the questing was fun for awhile, and then he hit STL and found it too hard and frustrating--as he noted that even finding a level 20 team to run STL was something of a minor miracle. By the way, that's in the place you skipped over with "..." in your quote. Points for honesty there, chum. Shall we note that this was a player who apparently didn't find the dungeons to be the best part of the game? That apparently people who are leveling up aren't clamoring to get in to the leveling dungeons?
 
He said the game should lean more towards casuals, which you are inferring means that he wants more content for casuals and not that he wants casual content to be more rewarding relative to content for hardcores.
 
I'm not going to quote him AGAIN for you just because you think what he said is wrong. I think his post was pretty accurate. This game makes no secret of what they think the gap should be between casual and hardcore players and it is very wide. I could speculate on why they're doing that--and frankly I don't think catering to hardcore guilds is the main reason for it--but it would just be speculation. Hopefully the tutorial dungeon and reitemization will make the leveling dungeons less frustrating and more rewarding, so that more people think they're worth doing and don't quit from doing them.
 
Too bad he won't be around to see it. Would've been nice if the very first response had pointed out that it's coming in just a few weeks, rather than cheerfully waving bon voyage to him, but glad to see at least the next person did. 
 
 
 :rolleyes: Maybe I came into this thread because of what you and Vic said in response to him, not because of what the OP said. The OP doesn't want anything except to say goodbye and explain why he left, and he did that. We are all hoping that once there's more tutorial upfront and better rewards for the dungeons, there will be less faceplant and frustration later on and maybe people like the OP won't be showing up here to say goodbye.
 
I tell you what, if you stop trying to pretend that the metrics prove dungeons are the most-loved part of the game and Vic stops trying to pretend that hardcore raiders have been neglected since launch, I'll stop pointing out the ways in which both of you are wrong. I agree that this thread isn't the place to talk about raid-level solo content. But it became the place to note that there isn't any the minute Vic said that solos have gotten plenty already.
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You make a lot of logical leaps here that I feel are unwarranted. Queues not popping doesn't mean people don't like the dungeons. It does mean that they don't find pugging them to be worth their time, but that doesn't mean they don't enjoy them. I don't know what to infer about people who didn't want to do the dungeons in the first place. Anyway, I really don't follow your logic. For me it's simple: if people are more likely to stick around if they run dungeons, then the answer is to get more people to run dungeons.
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I dont like the click sound or the size of the orbweaver so im still using the nostromo razer version ive been using the speedpad since belkin first introduced them i cant live without it i love it so much, this is 3rd one im on. Ive worn the previous 2 out, the movement pad also isnt as sketchy and sensitive on the forward movement like the orb
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			Why was this thread-jacked and turned into "Attuned and Unattuned Endgame Content" 2.0. Isn't there already a thread for that?	
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And the assumption implicit in "don't nerf my content" is that it wouldn't be possible to make a less rewarding and less challenging version of the same thing, which is a very common and completely invalid presumption that happens all the time on these forums. 
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A single individual, committing time and held accountable only to oneself by oneself, should not be rewarded as much as a single individual committing time to others, held accountable to others by oneself and others. It's really just that simple. You can disagree; I say "can," but I think it's pretty obvious that you do. 
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What you're doing is presuming that everyone who played the game is basically the same in terms of what they want to do and don't want to do. That there's no real difference between the players who stay and the players who leave except that the players who stay ran dungeons and the players who leave didn't.
 
But we already know that people aren't all the same in terms of what they like and don't like. We know that a lot of people like sports, but others don't. We know that a lot of people like strategy games, but others don't. We know that LOTS of people like birds with anger management issues. But some don't. And that raises a very real possibility about the observation that needs to be considered:
 
Maybe the people who left, left because they don't like dungeons.
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I don't think that's the assumption at all.  For me the issue with nerfing content is that it will become boring, from my point of view.  Make new content that's easier and less rewarding all you want, that's great.  However when we start making the current content easier we're taking away challenge from those who like it.
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Wow. Yeah, sorry, I don't view you as some kind of community-minded humanitarian deserving of special rewards for playing group content in a video game, while being so community-minded that you advocate that the majority of the game's players be excluded from an equally rewarding game experience if they prefer not to play group content. Unless you personally hate raiding but do it because you're so committed to spending your time helping other, that sounds like an incredibly egocentric perspective to me.
 
So just to be sure, you do raid because you personally enjoy raiding, right?
 
If not, since committing time to others and being accountable to others is so important to you as a criterion for reward, I eagerly await your proposal to hand out the best gear in the game for being helpful in chat channels, answering advice, being friendly, explaining mechanics, teaching people to run content, not skipping out on both PvE and PvP teams the instant you're not going to get what you want, not using exploits, and not excluding everyone else from having fun to appeal to your own personal preferences. Ooooh, that last one's going to hurt your chances at the best gear. That's a shame, but I'm sure you'll understand since it's all about others to you.
 
  :rolleyes:
 
I agree completely that there are several raid mechanics that simply cannot be scaled down. This is not to say that there are no mechanics that that a solo player could be realistically expected to execute that a 20-person team couldn't be. 
 
The mechanics are not going to be the same, and a Trinity-based design is going to fail completely--which is part of why OMNIcore-1 had kid-gloves on. They tried to force the support roles rather than the common elements available across classes like interrupts, recharge timers, buffs and debuffs that are common to all classes that have DPS/tank or DPS/healer.
 
But with all due respect, the whole concept of "it couldn't possibly be a comparable investment of time and effort" is either overvaluing your time and effort, or undervaluing mine.
 
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Edit: as evidenced very nicely by the summation in Sly's last post. "Dungeons are great! Don't change a thing!" It's possible to address the OP's concern and leave your dungeoning experience alone, isn't it? Or not?
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Wow. Yeah, sorry, I don't view you as some kind of community-minded humanitarian deserving of special rewards for playing group content in a video game, while being so community-minded that you advocate that the majority of the game's players be excluded from an equally rewarding game experience if they prefer not to play group content. Unless you personally hate raiding but do it because you're so committed to spending your time helping other, that sounds like an incredibly egocentric perspective to me.
 
So just to be sure, you do raid because you personally enjoy raiding, right?
 
If not, since committing time to others and being accountable to others is so important to you as a criterion for reward, I eagerly await your proposal to hand out the best gear in the game for being helpful in chat channels, answering advice, being friendly, explaining mechanics, teaching people to run content, not skipping out on both PvE and PvP teams the instant you're not going to get what you want, not using exploits, and not excluding everyone else from having fun to appeal to your own personal preferences. Ooooh, that last one's going to hurt your chances at the best gear. That's a shame, but I'm sure you'll understand since it's all about others to you.
 
  :rolleyes:
 
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He has indicated previously that he is willing to do that.
 
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I think a lot of people view this game and other MMOs in much to narrow a scope. An MMO is a bit like a country. You have economy, rich/middle class/poor, recreation, business etc.
 
Every MMO will always have the "rich" top skill level hardcore raiders, the "middle class" good casual raiders and the "poor" baddies/super casual. And the answer isn't to create content that caters exclusively to one or two classes of players, you need content for everyone. Something I see a lot in these forums are the rich/upper middle class essentially saying *cupcake* the poor, they don't need/deserve interesting and fun content that I find easy, go play something else. When they should be actively pushing for a wide variety of content for lower skill levels as well. These "poor/middle class" people are the backbone of every MMO, and having a lot of them is what enables the rich to stay rich. It's like a CEO firing all his low level employees, doesn't work out well does it. And that's what we've seen in Wildstar, the exodus of the blue collar, leaving everything stretched thin.
 
Keep the hard content hard. Introduce a huge amount of middle tier content, and lastly create a decent amount of braindead easy (to most) content so that JoeDerp can login for an hour, knock out something legitimately fun with his brotards, and logoff.
 
Start at the bottom and work up. You don't build a house by building the roof first.	
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The biggest logistical problem, from a macro perspective (the micro ones might be a good place to take this discussion after that) is whether that actively discourages raiders by giving everyone a solo path to the exact same rewards.  Or if Carbine should institute solo progression at that difficulty level to a completed raid step.  Such as, perhaps when DS20 is on reliable farm and we get a new raid, there really shouldn't be a big problem with having five man and solo progression paths that run up to GA's gear level, but require similar amounts of time.  That might work on a broad planning stage.
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Part of progression is the acquisition of gear. 
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I think a lot of people view this game and other MMOs in much to narrow a scope. An MMO is a bit like a country. You have economy, rich/middle class/poor, recreation, business etc.
 
Every MMO will always have the "rich" top skill level hardcore raiders, the "middle class" good casual raiders and the "poor" baddies/super casual. And the answer isn't to create content that caters exclusively to one or two classes of players, you need content for everyone. Something I see a lot in these forums are the rich/upper middle class essentially saying *cupcake* the poor, they don't need/deserve content that I find easy, go play something else. When they should be actively pushing for a wide variety of content for lower skill levels as well. These "poor/middle class" people are the backbone of every MMO, and having a lot of them is what enables the rich to stay rich. It's like a CEO firing all his low level employees, doesn't work out well does it. And that's what we've seen in Wildstar, the exodus of the blue collar, leaving everything stretched thin.
 
Keep the hard content hard. Introduce a huge amount of middle tier content, and lastly create a decent amount of braindead easy (to most) content so that JoeDerp can login for an hour, knock out something legitimately fun with his brotards, and logoff.
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I'd hoped to move the "hardcore solo" stuff to a new thread, but if we're going to toss out ideas, one that I had in an earlier thread which was that in the solo instance, the gear that drops would have a number of imbuments that would require multiple kills on a lockout to fill in.
 
So your gear starts out at one level, but only after 10 kills (maybe it gets 10% stronger with each kill) of a boss does it finally reach the "raid level" gear. If there are gear checks, this would require you to run the same bosses over and over again before being able to move on to down the entire instance. It would also give the solo player a feeling of constant progression.
 
I love vic's idea about giving stats to fill in role deficiency, because this would make raid gear not great for the solo instance and vice versa.
 
(Honestly, I really do think this topic deserves it's own thread, if I haven't made that clear).	
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I wouldn't call it that, but isn't that what vet shiphands are for?  For people who don't even feel like they're capable of middling though vet adventures so that they have something a bit harder?  They do have a large breadth of content across all skill levels in Wildstar.  If you only pigeonhole yourself in one, like adventures, you've only got six adventures to do.  Hell, if you do nothing but log in, raid, and log out for a week, you're literally doing only one instance.
 
That's why raiders burn out, even if you think of them as the "rich" people.  If you're just a raider, you have less variety than pretty much everyone else in the game.  You keep things fresh by playing different content, so that you're not "rich", "middle class", or "poor", but getting to use it all as if that distinction doesn't actually matter.  Nobody's really "hardcore" or "casual", we've all got times we can play more or less if we really want to.  It's one of the weirdest distinctions when you think about it.  How many of us can even wear one of those labels?
 
 
 
To be fair, a lot of people might think a vet shiphand is extremely difficult.  It's hard to say, difficulty is sort of subjective.  Still, good point about penalizing the items.  That does raise a new mechanical style.  Imagine gear that fills in a bit of the trinity, so that a warrior's "solo progression gear" gives him the self heal he needs and a spellslinger gets a bit more survivability from his.  Both need to balance between support and assault to make sure they can do the other two jobs at the same time, and you disable the ability outside that kind of play.
 
That'd be good progression gear for soloers.  I think I wrote about this a long time ago; can't for the life of me remember where though.
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But with all due respect, the whole concept of "it couldn't possibly be a comparable investment of time and effort" is either overvaluing your time and effort, or undervaluing mine.
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I wouldn't call it that, but isn't that what vet shiphands are for?  For people who don't even feel like they're capable of middling though vet adventures so that they have something a bit harder?  They do have a large breadth of content across all skill levels in Wildstar.  If you only pigeonhole yourself in one, like adventures, you've only got six adventures to do.  Hell, if you do nothing but log in, raid, and log out for a week, you're literally doing only one instance.
 
That's why raiders burn out, even if you think of them as the "rich" people.  If you're just a raider, you have less variety than pretty much everyone else in the game.  You keep things fresh by playing different content, so that you're not "rich", "middle class", or "poor", but getting to use it all as if that distinction doesn't actually matter.  Nobody's really "hardcore" or "casual", we've all got times we can play more or less if we really want to.  It's one of the weirdest distinctions when you think about it.  How many of us can even wear one of those labels?
 
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Not for me, I would much rather be able to just log on and only do progression raiding (or progression dungeons if that were a thing), I hate having to do all of the maintenance tasks (repairs, runes, consumables).  I also would rather not farm the current, and even worse the previous tier, to gear up, but I understand it is necessary to extend the lifespan of the content and allow more people to experience it.  I would be fine with no quests at all.  I know that game will never be made, but I do not burnout from only doing what I enjoy, and I know I am not alone.
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I should clarify that this is not why every raider will somehow inevitably burns out (every raider has obviously not burned out) but why a raider, given the context of the conversation assuming that they are the target audience of the game, would burn out just as easily as a solo player who never touches a shiphand out of fear that the instance will beat him up and take his lunch money.  Burnout happens when people run out of things to do.  If people are perfectly happy to inhabit their one corner of the game, and that fulfills all their needs, burnout is also not in their future.  I apologize for the confusion.
 
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