121214-would-you-be-ok-with-a-buy-to-play-model

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Elder scrolls online, just announced it's going buy to play, which is the classic model of buy the game and play it with unlimited time ala guild wars 2.
 
Kudos for carbine outlasting ESO in the sub market, but now that they are the only mmo with sub fees, maybe its time to make the game a bit more accessible?
 
I'm interested in the communities thoughts on the matter	
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$15 a month isn't inaccessible. Internet costs more. A PC to run the game costs more. Eating costs more. Socks cost more.
 
This game is essentially B2P anyway with the CREDD system. When you buy the game you have 30 days to make ~10 plat to buy a CREDD which is good for 1 month of play time. If you spent 3 days out of that month farming a moderate amount you could make 3x that amount. 
 
Build the stockpile of plat, buy CREDD with it, play for FREE.	
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			Psykins beat me to it xD	
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			ESO was already set up for a cash shop model at launch, wildstar was not, i personally cant afford a pay to win game, nor do i want to play one, so hopefully wildstar sticks with its current business model.	
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This game is essentially B2P anyway with the CREDD system. When you buy the game you have 30 days to make ~10 plat to buy a CREDD which is good for 1 month of play time. If you spent 3 days out of that month farming a moderate amount you could make 3x that amount. 
 
Build the stockpile of plat, buy CREDD with it, play for FREE.
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ESO was already set up for a cash shop model at launch, wildstar was not, i personally cant afford a pay to win game, nor do i want to play one, so hopefully wildstar sticks with its current business model.
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Elder scrolls online, just announced it's going buy to play, which is the classic model of buy the game and play it with unlimited time ala guild wars 2.
 
Kudos for carbine outlasting ESO in the sub market, but now that they are the only mmo with sub fees, maybe its time to make the game a bit more accessible?
 
I'm interested in the communities thoughts on the matter
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I've always wondered, with games like that, the B2P, how do they make money to pay employees(maintaining the game, updating the game)?  And why are they better for me to play than a sub based game that charges me $14-16(or more, depending on your tax rate if you pay taxes on the sub) a month?
 
And when did WoW and SWTOR get rid of their sub fees?	
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			This is new and interesting.  I've never seen this discussed here before.	
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But that is on Entity, I'm not sure what state warhound is in at the moment but making 10 plat on luminai is quite hard, i'm not even sure if someone is even selling credd there at the moment :/
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Make the PvP servers free then ;)
 
But all in all a good cash shop might not be bad for the population in total, having a subscription is a commitment.
While spending the same amount of cash (or more) in the cash shop just doesn't feel the same.	
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			Or just transfer for free to a PvE server. With no open-world PvP, why be on a PvP server?	
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			That is a different discussing	
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ESO was already set up for a cash shop model at launch, wildstar was not, i personally cant afford a pay to win game, nor do i want to play one, so hopefully wildstar sticks with its current business model.
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Elder scrolls online, just announced it's going buy to play, which is the classic model of buy the game and play it with unlimited time ala guild wars 2.
 
Kudos for carbine outlasting ESO in the sub market, but now that they are the only mmo with sub fees, maybe its time to make the game a bit more accessible?
 
I'm interested in the communities thoughts on the matter
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Carbine didnt outlast ESO yet, ESO will be around 11 months when it goes b2p, Wildstar is only around 8 months.
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I wanna see wildstar go to the consoles, now that's what I call accessible.
 
EDIT: Personally idc what model they go with, I'm still going to play it. I really have nothing else that feels like Wildstar.	
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I would be ok with a B2P model ala TSW not a B2P model ala GW2.
 
The difference is subtle but important.
TSW sells content updates - issues in their vernacular - "batteries included", they also periodically "expire" older issues making them part of the "base package".
 
This puts pressure on the company to release content "worthwhile enough" to prompt a purchase, but customers can even skip issues that are too "thin" for them.
So instead of a running subscription new content or not, you get "content patches" that you can pay for or not.
 
On the other hand GW2 is "buy once play forever" and any content updates are part of that initial price but it monetizes very similar to F2P titles.
 
What I'm saying is I would very much prefer a model where substantial content patches I have to pay for but once I do I have access to everything, no double / triple dipping sh*t.	
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Wildstar is  ALREADY  B2P with the use of CREDD.
 
What's so difficult to understand that so many of these threads pop up ?????????  :wacko:	
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Wildstar isn't like ESO. ESO was a half-assed game that was designed to capitalize on the market of Elder Scrolls fans. It had an existing IP with a HUGE fanbase and STILL failed. That shows something about the quality.
 
Wildstar doesn't need to go Buy to Play. It's a quality AAA title and it still did fine with a BRAND NEW IP with no fanbase to draw on like WoW, ESO, SWtOR, etc. It had a rough launch but I'm seeing more new people every day, coming back and just picking up the game.	
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I didn't know B2P is someone else buying your sub for you (CREDD seller) or you slaving away your life to make plat for gametime...
Where did you find that B2P definition?	
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I didn't know B2P is someone else buying your sub for you (CREDD seller) or you slaving away your life to make plat for gametime...
Where did you find that B2P definition?
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			yes,  these far n wide content releases isnt justifying the 15.00 sub for non credd users tbh.	
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B2P in theory doesn't bother me as much as F2P does, but it doesn't necessarily translate to a more accessible model.  Technically, if Carbine switched to a hard quarterly drop schedule and just charged us 45$ to maintain it, they would be B2P and would make exactly as much money.  The problem is that you get what you pay for.  If we had to pay 45$ every year to buy the latest expansion, we aren't getting the same volume of content (we're getting three months worth every year according to the current model, which we can assume is a baseline since NCSoft cut Carbine's staff until they were profitable at its subscriber count).  Honestly, I'm not a fan of stretching it out; content is few and far enough between now and I don't want to wait a blank year for the kinds of changes they're making in Drop 4.  B2P at that level is, essentially, forcing a non-monthly subscription basis for development.
 
I am completely against the idea of supplementing that idea with a cash shop of exclusive items if people want the same development for less buyable money.  Again, the principle above applies, the company's got to make its money from somewhere.  That somewhere, if a lot of people are counted on to pay less money than NCSoft deems to be profitable, is to make sure that someone pays a lot more money than that.  They will inevitably get their money.  If they make the cash shop all cosmetic items, and it's not enough to cover the increased costs, they will put something on that shop that will sell.  That's why so many games that rely on cash shops for money slide eventually into P2W, it's the only thing they know that will certainly sell.  A game advantage.
 
This is all, of course, better than the traditional F2P model, which doesn't even ask people to pay for development at a lower rate, it cuts straight to the middleman and tries to gouge its playerbase.  People think this means I'm against all methods in which not paying 15 dollars a month isn't done; which isn't true.  What I am against is that development hours will be used in an attempt to coerce those with more money to pay far more than 15 dollars a month in order to let a bevy of free players in.  The responsibility shouldn't be on players with money to spend more in order to support people who want to avoid responsibility.  Everyone should be paid in month to month from some source, and if development hours are used to lock features or items behind a pay wall, only those who pay their way in should be responsible.
 
With that said, I support the CREDD model.  While those players don't technically pay to play, someone pays their subscription on their behalf.  If we're talking about a cash shop, I'm not against placing our old subscription rewards and things like our beta awards on the shop for sale (I got them for free for participating, but I think people should be able to buy them to retroactively support the game).  If we're talking about letting people on without paying directly, find a way for them to be personally responsible for their own currency or personally liable for their own skimping.  Give a player an option to play with ads, banners and such if they don't want to subscribe, and make them individually buy the subscription rewards they want.  I used to advocate across-the-board advertising to drop sub prices, but having received feedback to this effect, there's really no reason to make a subscriber deal with it.  15$ a month is enough to pay our way, but there's no real reason to not slap a Dr. Scholls advertisement banner on the screen and let them pay for the player.  If not all the 15$ a month can be feasibly recovered from a player at this rate, remove it from their development goods and put that behind a pay wall only for them.
 
It should not, in any way, be laid on the shoulders of people who are already paying enough to support their portion of development to spend more money in order to support players who don't want to.  Even CREDD sellers are not purchasing a part of the game unavailable to them with their extra money, they're paying someone else directly to play in return for some currency that they could grind up themselves with enough time investment.  Leave the subscribers alone to reap all the possible rewards of development as we have been, levy the burdens on those who refuse.  NCSoft is absolutely within their rights to make playing for "free", with no one paying a player's way in, as financially beneficial in other ways as possible.  However, I feel they have set their price for access to the entirety of a month's  development and upkeep at 15$, they should not ever charge a penny more to a loyal subscriber or CREDD user.
 
As before, I do still support removing the box price, charging whatever is necessary to cover the costs of creating and CSing an account (usually 5$) and not covering the first month of subscription time.	
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ESO was already set up for a cash shop model at launch, wildstar was not, i personally cant afford a pay to win game, nor do i want to play one, so hopefully wildstar sticks with its current business model.
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For either a F2P or B2P model they need to implement another source of income (cash shop). I will start to worry the day I see a cash shop in game.
 
And yes, as long CREED is available, you can play 4 free.	
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			Also TESO was released 3 months before Wildstar. A real beat is for Wildstar can turn the tide and go past the 1 year anniversary without a need to perform that move.	
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Also TESO was released 3 months before Wildstar. A real beat is for Wildstar can turn the tide and go past the 1 year anniversary without a need to perform that move.
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			Also not all shops work the same. Have seen shops that sell an item to a single char. I actually like Swtor implementation where buying an item unlocks unlimited copies of the same item to that character. And for a couple extra, you can unlock it for all your characters.	
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TESO was also a very half-baked attempt at an MMO with incredibly frustrating mechanics and a combat system that was less enjoyable than watching paint dry. Wildstar had/still has a lot going for it, especially in the way of ingenuity and a good sense of humor.
 
Zenimax had 5 or 6 really great and successful MMOs to learn from in terms of mechanics & QOL... and they didn't.
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Wildstar is ALREADY B2P with the use of CREDD.
 
What's so difficult to understand that so many of these threads pop up ????????? :wacko:
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Also not all shops work the same. Have seen shops that sell an item to a single char. I actually like Swtor implementation where buying an item unlocks unlimited copies of the same item to that character. And for a couple extra, you can unlock it for all your characters.
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I think ESO going B2P was more bc of their upcoming consoles release than lack of support. Microsoft and Sony urged ESO to adopt B2P due to the average console player not wanting and not accustomed to paying a monthly fee. This could have been in the cards the whole time for them. Get all they could out of subs before the console version hits then switch to B2P with a sub option.
 
Not to beat a dead horse but the sub model is RIP. I assume Wildstar will ride it out as long as possible and then make a change. Doesn't bother me as long as the game lives and has a populated server where I can play with other gamers doing dungeons and raids and so on. F2P, B2P, whatever.. just play.	
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			The TSW system might indeed be nice, it will put some pressure on Carbine to release good content with them, worthy for the price	
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I think ESO going B2P was more bc of their upcoming consoles release than lack of support. Microsoft and Sony urged ESO to adopt B2P due to the average console player not wanting and not accustomed to paying a monthly fee. 
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Like Xbox Live & PSN?
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			The average COD dude buys map packs every quarter. He could be talked into a subscription, I'd think	
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The average COD dude buys map packs every quarter. He could be talked into a subscription, I'd think
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Elder scrolls online, just announced it's going buy to play, which is the classic model of buy the game and play it with unlimited time ala guild wars 2.
 
Kudos for carbine outlasting ESO in the sub market, but now that they are the only mmo with sub fees, maybe its time to make the game a bit more accessible?
 
I'm interested in the communities thoughts on the matter
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I didn't know B2P is someone else buying your sub for you (CREDD seller) or you slaving away your life to make plat for gametime...
Where did you find that B2P definition?
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I've always wondered, with games like that, the B2P, how do they make money to pay employees(maintaining the game, updating the game)?  And why are they better for me to play than a sub based game that charges me $14-16(or more, depending on your tax rate if you pay taxes on the sub) a month?
 
And when did WoW and SWTOR get rid of their sub fees?
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Lol... I love it when people talk about Wildstar being sub based game. I have never paid a sub and almost 2 years worth of CREDD saved. All without farming.
 
Also 15 dollars a month? Really? 1 movie ticket is more expensive then an entire month of Wildstar
 
Wildstar the only MMO with sub fees? How bout the largest MMO in the World. How could you forget that?
 
In regards to buy to play (AKA pay to win) I cant afford it. My one and only experience with a pay to win game was Planetside 2 and I was spending close to 50 dollars a month on it. No thanks
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"Lol"... so you were part of the early wave of exploits, bugs with professions and economy and stockpiled CREDD, good for you.
How is that normal for new customers or making 10plat a month while playing at your leisure for new customers starting their gameplay at lvl1.
 
Regardless of which, someone else buying your gametime for you under any pretext is no B2P under any definition of the term.
Neither is P2W a synonym to B2P unless you believe that every single player game ever that you bought the box or made a digital purchase off is P2W.
FYI the "game as a product" predates the "game as a service" concept by some decades...
 
But... if you keep repeating inane comments eventually people get tired of trying to give factual replies, that doesn't make it any more valid.
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WoW still has a sub, but SWTOR dropped the sub Q1 of 2013.
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"Lol"... so you were part of the early wave of exploits, bugs with professions and economy and stockpiled CREDD, good for you.
How is that normal for new customers or making 10plat a month while playing at your leisure for new customers starting their gameplay at lvl1.
 
Regardless of which, someone else buying your gametime for you under any pretext is no B2P under any definition of the term.
Neither is P2W a synonym to B2P unless you believe that every single player game ever that you bought the box or made a digital purchase off is P2W.
FYI the "game as a product" predates the "game as a service" concept by some decades...
 
But... if you keep repeating inane comments eventually people get tired of trying to give factual replies, that doesn't make it any more valid.
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"Lol"... so you were part of the early wave of exploits, bugs with professions and economy and stockpiled CREDD, good for you.
How is that normal for new customers or making 10plat a month while playing at your leisure for new customers starting their gameplay at lvl1.
 
Regardless of which, someone else buying your gametime for you under any pretext is no B2P under any definition of the term.
Neither is P2W a synonym to B2P unless you believe that every single player game ever that you bought the box or made a digital purchase off is P2W.
FYI the "game as a product" predates the "game as a service" concept by some decades...
 
But... if you keep repeating inane comments eventually people get tired of trying to give factual replies, that doesn't make it any more valid.
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			Keep the following in mind when discussing subs vs. cash shop:  You have paid $15 for access to the game.  You have not directly paid any employee's salary, you have not purchased the rights for developmental changes, and you have not directly traded your money for a stake in the game's development.  You are not a shareholder or a board member, you and your $15 are a consumer.	
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Keep the following in mind when discussing subs vs. cash shop:  You have paid $15 for access to the game.  You have not directly paid any employee's salary, you have not purchased the rights for developmental changes, and you have not directly traded your money for a stake in the game's development.  You are not a shareholder or a board member, you and your $15 are a consumer.
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I don't think that B2P is bad. I think it work for games like guild wars because content is temporary and it has cash shop implemented from beginning.
 
I think if anything kept me from wildstar financial oriented, it was box price and subscription. I could handle sub fee easy, but initial purchase is not always possible.	
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When we buy from a cash shop, are we then directly paying salaries, purchasing rights to development changes, and directly traded for a stake in the game's development?  Are we now shareholders and/or board members, and more than just a consumer?  I'm not meaning to be a snarky *cupcake* with those questions, so apologies if it seems that I am.
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This bugs me, while I prefer the game as a sub model, there are not any b2p games that are really p2w, GW2 isnt, hell even some f2p games arent p2w, Tera, RIFT, not pay to win.
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			Have you read the forums, it's insane, people are trying to crucify ZoS over there. I would hope that if Carbine made this announcement our community would be more mature.	
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I agree. B2P is not the same thing as P2W at all. For example, TSW is B2P and not P2W.
On the other hand, Wildstar is not B2P but is P2W through cash->CREDD->plat->boost->win.
 
So I think we can all agree that B2P and P2W are two different things entirely, even if some people here are determined to conflate the two.
 
Also, I'd like to thank Vic for pointing out exactly why this game won't be going B2P any time soon.
If the game were B2P and released expansions, they'd have to do one of two things:
1. Convince us to spend $45 all at once for one drop worth of new content, relabeled as an expac. That's not gonna happen.
2. Come up with an entire new expac worth of content every four months to bring money in at the same $15/month rate. That's not gonna happen either.
 
So in a nutshell: B2P, not going to happen. Even if it's not P2W.
 
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Have you read the forums, it's insane, people are trying to crucify ZoS over there. I would hope that if Carbine made this announcement our community would be more mature.
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Lol... I love it when people talk about Wildstar being sub based game. I have never paid a sub and almost 2 years worth of CREDD saved. All without farming.
 
Also 15 dollars a month? Really? 1 movie ticket is more expensive then an entire month of Wildstar
 
Wildstar the only MMO with sub fees? How bout the largest MMO in the World. How could you forget that?
 
In regards to buy to play (AKA pay to win) I cant afford it. My one and only experience with a pay to win game was Planetside 2 and I was spending close to 50 dollars a month on it. No thanks
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Are they compensating the players who've paid months of sub time and/or purchased subscription deals that extend beyond the date of B2P?
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I don't believe so, I didn't read the full article, just microwaved some popcorn, grabbed a coke, and started reading the comments.
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Also, I'd like to thank Vic for pointing out exactly why this game won't be going B2P any time soon.
If the game were B2P and released expansions, they'd have to do one of two things:
1. Convince us to spend $45 all at once for one drop worth of new content, relabeled as an expac. That's not gonna happen.
2. Come up with an entire new expac worth of content every four months to bring money in at the same $15/month rate. That's not gonna happen either.
 
So in a nutshell: B2P, not going to happen. Even if it's not P2W.
 
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For how long will you pay those $15?
They are dumbing down the content, DS will be accessible to more guilds so in about 6 months time most players will probably have done it.
The new Raid that is in the works will probably not be ready in half a year and it will be an easier raid from what i've heard.
So what are you planning to do the over 6 months? There are quite a few new MMO around the corner as well at that time...
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So if i cancel my sub now you are saying i should still get everything for free?
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Just don't ask a subscriber to pay a penny more for anything developed in the game.  If you paid your share already via sub or someone else paid you in via CREDD, you deserve everything developed with that money.
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Alts, roleplay, housing, farming up plat, trying out new builds, exploring the humor in the nooks & crannies of the game, rerolling alts, trying new stat combos...  that's just the kind of stuff I like to do.  Especially roleplay & alts.
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For some this might be enough but for now it feels the majority logs in to do raid and that is it, they might roll some alts but i wonder if they will stay for long if they have completed the raids a couple of times.
Then there is a part that wanted open world pvp, i kinda fear when Black Desert comes out that is more focus on open world PvP that some would move to there.
 
GW2 was more interesting for me in the end game then wildstar, mostly because you can visit the lower level maps and still explore and do things there. In wildstar the only time i went to a low level map was because of world bosses once or twice. Then most of the time is spend in grinding the dailies... I wish you could scale yourself down and redo some of the quests or something like that.
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I really hope they will because I'm not going to grind all the dailies again with my alts :/
Thinking about that... this game isn't that alt friendly because of that. Trying to max out AMP and Ability points for all your chars... fun!	
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I really hope they will because I'm not going to grind all the dailies again with my alts :/
Thinking about that... this game isn't that alt friendly because of that. Trying to max out AMP and Ability points for all your chars... fun!
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It's not a horrible idea (though technically an alt is scaled down so you can redo some of the quests).  Actually, if I was going to make a recommendation on that basis, I'd recommend a sort of "vet leveling" so that you can replay the questing zones at 50 with scaled up damage and mechanics.  I'm not entirely sure how popular that would be in and of itself, but at least it's something they can attach rewards to that might be somewhat relevant to a level 50 player.
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About paying Sub,
 
There is also these kind of problems
https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/119065-massive-lag-and-dc-on-jabbit/page-12
 
Makes you wonder what you are paying for sometimes ;)	
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It's not a horrible idea (though technically an alt is scaled down so you can redo some of the quests).  Actually, if I was going to make a recommendation on that basis, I'd recommend a sort of "vet leveling" so that you can replay the questing zones at 50 with scaled up damage and mechanics.  I'm not entirely sure how popular that would be in and of itself, but at least it's something they can attach rewards to that might be somewhat relevant to a level 50 player.
 
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Why?
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That is what keeps me going as well, I actually run 2 lvl 20 dungeons today as a tank... took hours for them to pop though :/
If it was just gear I wouldnt mind the grind that much but we are talking about abilities here so it kinda feels you should have had them when you hit 50 rather then also grind for them.	
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About paying Sub,
 
There is also these kind of problems
https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/119065-massive-lag-and-dc-on-jabbit/page-12
 
Makes you wonder what you are paying for sometimes ;)
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About paying Sub,
 
There is also these kind of problems
https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/119065-massive-lag-and-dc-on-jabbit/page-12
 
Makes you wonder what you are paying for sometimes ;)
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The relic weapon series in FFXIV has people going back to lower level zones for specific fates to grind out all the time. Add to that the "hunt" system has level 50's running into every zone in the game chasing down level 50 mobs that don't aggro lowbies even though they exist in lowbie zones. Throw in the fact you can level every class as an alt on the same toon and you get full lower level zones all the way up every day all day long. (Having 2.5 million people and mostly full servers doesn't hurt either).
 
WS has a lot of cool zones that could be reused in some way. They just need something like the above, doesn't have to be a copy of the above, but something that will drive 50's into newbie zones to help out there.
 
Edit: As to the OP's query: I think the B2P system in GW2 is the best one yet. Sub model, if done well a la FFXIV and WoW can work but B2P is my personal favorite model. If only GW2 had the trinity and any kind of decent PvE dungeons I would still be playing it today.
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That is what keeps me going as well, I actually run 2 lvl 20 dungeons today as a tank... took hours for them to pop though :/
If it was just gear I wouldnt mind the grind that much but we are talking about abilities here so it kinda feels you should have had them when you hit 50 rather then also grind for them.
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			To answer the question posed by the OP: No, I would not be okay with a B2P model. I want a sub-based MMO and that is that.	
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			No. i like my subscription, thank you very much. 	
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I hate having to pay for bandaid fixes content that only pop up every quarter.
I basically paid not to have Christmas or Halloween content, so Carbine could fix their game.
 
We still have issues with Warplots, PvP, itemization... it's almost falling into a year of this.
 
Wildstar isn't a game worth the subscription.
If it was, you wouldn't have population issues, content would have actual release dates.
 
It is spelled out clearly on these forums, facebook, youtube videos and it growing booming angry voice that doesn't reverse, simply because Carbine has not delivered the fixes and content it needs to survive.	
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Edit: As to the OP's query: I think the B2P system in GW2 is the best one yet. Sub model, if done well a la FFXIV and WoW can work but B2P is my personal favorite model. If only GW2 had the trinity and any kind of decent PvE dungeons I would still be playing it today.
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Well, unless someone knows whether it's a very broad addon everyone uses that overloads the inbound through icComm in a very specific circumstance that's become repeatable, another corrupted character crashing the entire server again, someone attacking Carbine's EU datacenter, or any of the nigh infinite issues that people might be disconnecting, someone is getting paid to comb over the outbound data over and over and over, looking for anything on their end that might be causing the problem.
 
My money's well spent, all my boots I've routetraced to Time Warner.  I don't think I've been kicked offline by Entity since that corrupted player information issue right after the megaserver launch.
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To answer the question posed by the OP: No, I would not be okay with a B2P model. I want a sub-based MMO and that is that.
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A sub based system is okay, but do you think carbine has provided enough to be worth the money?
I'll still be paying myself for several months for sure but it will end sometime, maybe i still want to play it now and again but i don't feel it's worth $15 anymore.
I think more and more are reaching that point by now, players asking themselves do i play this game enough and do i enjoy it to pay $15 while i might be able to have the same kind of fun in another game that is free to play.
 
Carbine has worked hard on this game, we have seen 2 new maps and a lot of changes to the gear and balance of the game but looking back at it, it almost feels like 80% of the content has been patches/changes to make the game more playable for more players. Quality of life is important but it feels like this should have been the game at release... 
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			i don't know in NA how much time you need to farm 10 plat, but in JABBIT(pve-EU) you need at least 2 weeks of intensive farming to get the 18plat for a C.R.E.E.D (yes, here it costs 18 plat) and there's few people selling it, and few people buying it.B2P model is the most intelligent form of payment for a game, and in case, b2p expansions. like 40€ for the game and 15€ for each expansion.Are they working? you can pay themThey does nothing for 3 month? no money for them.This is how the world runs out of carabine studios	
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i don't know in NA how much time you need to farm 10 plat, but in JABBIT(pve-EU) you need at least 2 weeks of intensive farming to get the 18plat for a C.R.E.E.D (yes, here it costs 18 plat) and there's few people selling it, and few people buying it.
 
B2P model is the most intelligent form of payment for a game, and in case, b2p expansions. like 40€ for the game and 15€ for each expansion.
 
Are they working? you can pay them
 
They does nothing for 3 month? no money for them.
 
This is how the world runs out of carabine studios
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No, that's how a few games run in the world.
Not every major MMO runs like this.
Just because favourite MMO x does something, doesn't mean it's the standard.
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i was talking about how normal people get payed in real world, out of some major mmos studios.
I think that no one with a healty brain would pay someone when he does nothing for you. 
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Yep, sub is still worth it.
Organising events, roleplaying, raiding, doing Adventures and Dungeons, getting people attuned.
Even started dabbling in PvP battlegrounds as well.
I still need to collect many challenges and achievements, and need to finish my defile reputation as well before the next drop hits.
 
Genetic Archives is still fun for us, and we almost have Ohmna down.
Then we start with Datascape.
We're not even halfway the game, and got many things left to do.
So people "done it all"? Yeah well, my guild and alliance for sure ain't part of that group, and I know many other guilds who aren't either.
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i don't know in NA how much time you need to farm 10 plat, but in JABBIT(pve-EU) you need at least 2 weeks of intensive farming to get the 18plat for a C.R.E.E.D (yes, here it costs 18 plat) and there's few people selling it, and few people buying it.
 
B2P model is the most intelligent form of payment for a game, and in case, b2p expansions. like 40€ for the game and 15€ for each expansion.
 
Are they working? you can pay them
 
They does nothing for 3 month? no money for them.
 
This is how the world runs out of carabine studios
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ESO was already set up for a cash shop model at launch, wildstar was not, i personally cant afford a pay to win game, nor do i want to play one, so hopefully wildstar sticks with its current business model.
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			no i wouldnt....so few p2p quality titles left.  	
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Plus not to mention they are introducing new things on a regular basis. You pay £9 for a WoW sub and get nothing for nearly year. Then after 2 years you are asking to pay £40 for an expansion that doesnt really bring anything"new" to the party. I think ill live with paying my sub for the moment in WS
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A sub based system is okay, but do you think carbine has provided enough to be worth the money?
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To the OP:  NO
 
 
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i don't know in NA how much time you need to farm 10 plat, but in JABBIT(pve-EU) you need at least 2 weeks of intensive farming to get the 18plat for a C.R.E.E.D (yes, here it costs 18 plat) and there's few people selling it, and few people buying it.
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As Harmon said earlier, it was probably the console market the one responsible for Zenimax ditching the subscription.
 
How many PC gamers will stay paying a sub, when the console version didn't have one.
 
Also, moving to a b2p/f2p is not the only option available to Carbine. They can reduce the sub price. I'm sure many other MMO subscribers will consider Wildstar if the sub is cheaper, something like 9.99 or 12 bucks.	
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As Harmon said earlier, it was probably the console market the one responsible for Zenimax ditching the subscription.
 
How many PC gamers will stay paying a sub, when the console version didn't have one.
 
Also, moving to a b2p/f2p is not the only option available to Carbine. They can reduce the sub price. I'm sure many other MMO subscribers will consider Wildstar if the sub is cheaper, something like 9.99 or 12 bucks.
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"This should have been the game at release" is a pointless phrase in the genre of online games, especially those as massively complicated as MMOs. They will always be fixing and refining things. I am satisfied with what we have so far and I am looking forward to what the future holds.
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[...]  you need at least 2 weeks of intensive farming to get the 18plat for a C.R.E.E.D [...]
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How much do you sell the farmed goods?
Because on Jabbit it's better to sell them to the vendor.	
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How much do you sell the farmed goods?
Because on Jabbit it's better to sell them to the vendor.
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			3p/day at EG cap for completing all your dailies, including the group quests. That's 6 days of dailies and non-intensive farming for your plat and reliable as well. If you're having trouble making money and you're not doing your dailies, you're doing it wrong. I'm not saying this is the only or even the best way to make plat, bit if you're going slower than that, maybe try dailies instead.	
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			Anything that keeps Wildstar away from F2P is alright with me.	
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but now that they are the only mmo with sub fees, maybe its time to make the game a bit more accessible?
 
I'm interested in the communities thoughts on the matter
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I prefer sub over b2p and def over f2p because with sub you get constant updates, new content etc. No need to worry about those things. While often with b2p and f2p new things that will get added are only vanity items (mounts, costumes etC) or even items that will make it pay 2 win.. wich is just horrible imo. I prefer getting new content, fixes and updates as much as they can and i'll gladly pay for it.
And often.. with b2p/f2p you spend more money then you would do on sub based. (quickly typed doing dungeon, rofl! Hope it make sense)	
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I prefer sub over b2p and def over f2p because with sub you get constant updates, new content etc. No need to worry about those things. 
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I prefer sub over b2p and def over f2p because with sub you get constant updates, new content etc. No need to worry about those things. While often with b2p and f2p new things that will get added are only vanity items (mounts, costumes etC) or even items that will make it pay 2 win.. wich is just horrible imo. I prefer getting new content, fixes and updates as much as they can and i'll gladly pay for it.
And often.. with b2p/f2p you spend more money then you would do on sub based. 
 
(quickly typed doing dungeon, rofl! Hope it make sense)
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Let's not kid ourselves WS is leaking subs and very few new players are coming in. The only question that should be discussed is whether B2P or F2P is better. I honestly do not understand why you'd consider B2P over F2P. F2P games just are more profitable. 
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The quality is another thing, and also big studios have made screw ups.
 
And being profitable as a studio or publisher with only subscription is a myth. For years the second grossing MMO publisher after Blizzard was Perfect World, with only 100% f2p model.	
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If we need to believe the story then Carbine had to release the game earlier because of Ncsoft
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yeah.
it needs to be b2p or f2p.
it will affect some raiders (maybe they will feel less incentive to log in?) but overall it will bring some fresh air into the game. it really needs it. that and being more alt friendly and rewards for running low level group content.	
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This is a story that was made up by players and non-players. Carbine has repeatedly said that the game was not rushed to release.
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Buy-To-Play Models seem to be going closer and closer down the "with Paid DLC" model for MMOs. 
 
I despise the idea of cutting players out of content. Carbine keeps talking about making their game more "Accessible" to a larger audience, wouldn't Paid DLC do the opposite? I think it would. It's why I refuse to ever buy ESO now that it's gone that route.
 
Carbine needs to look at what Trion did with Rift. There's the model to copy, if they do convert anywhere. Whether it's F2P or B2P it doesn't matter, just make all content made accessible to everyone who has access to play. After that, do a Sub for bonuses, and I'm fine with new Classes (even Races) in a Cash Shop. And of course the cosmetic crap, mounts, etc. 	
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Canceled my TESO sub and the game as soon as they announced B2P. Why? Because I strongly prefer P2P. It gives me access to all the content without the hassle of managing DLCs or whatever. I just want to login and play. New content available? It will automaticaly download once I start the launcher. No headaches there for me. That's how I prefer it at least.
 
That said, if WS shys away from P2P I will cancel the sub and game as well. Honestly, WS is my last hope at the moment for the P2P model. They will have my sub money as long as I can afford it... with the some CREDD, maybe, mixed in. ;)	
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Carbine needs to look at what Trion did with Rift. There's the model to copy, if they do convert anywhere. Whether it's F2P or B2P it doesn't matter, just make all content made accessible to everyone who has access to play. After that, do a Sub for bonuses, and I'm fine with new Classes (even Races) in a Cash Shop. And of course the cosmetic crap, mounts, etc. 
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Canceled my TESO sub and the game as soon as they announced B2P. Why? Because I strongly prefer P2P. It gives me access to all the content without the hassle of managing DLCs or whatever. I just want to login and play. New content available? It will automaticaly download once I start the launcher. No headaches there for me. That's how I prefer it at least.
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I think the quite steep introduction price is maybe what hurts them.
 
If you could go on play 1 month for free and then need to pay a subscription you might have a bigger stream of players trying the game liking it and playing it even more.
Now you need to pay for the box and then hope it's to your liking and if so you know you will be paying money every month so it's a big investment.	
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I think the quite steep introduction price is maybe what hurts them.
 
If you could go on play 1 month for free and then need to pay a subscription you might have a bigger stream of players trying the game liking it and playing it even more.
Now you need to pay for the box and then hope it's to your liking and if so you know you will be paying money every month so it's a big investment.
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Your comment is completely contradictory. ESO will still offer a sub that does all those things for you: all DLC's, new content, etc and allowing you to just login in an play. Only thing locked out to you would be the fluff in the cash shop and with 1500 free crown tokens a month for free with your sub you really aren't locked out of much there either.
 
If your saying "I will never pay a sub to a game that has a B2P option" that is a different stance altogether. GW2 pulled it off with great success.
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I'm fine with B2P, even with F2P if done properly (ala GW2).
 
As someone else's said before, let's not kid ourselves, this game badly needs new players, it's not going to be sustainable like this for too long. So any business model that helps prevent it from going under is fine by me, though I'd favor B2P with paid expansions.	
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			This game is already buy to play if you the CREDD system.	
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Elder scrolls online, just announced it's going buy to play, which is the classic model of buy the game and play it with unlimited time ala guild wars 2.
 
Kudos for carbine outlasting ESO in the sub market, but now that they are the only mmo with sub fees, maybe its time to make the game a bit more accessible?
 
I'm interested in the communities thoughts on the matter
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A sub based system is okay, but do you think carbine has provided enough to be worth the money?
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Elder scrolls online, just announced it's going buy to play, which is the classic model of buy the game and play it with unlimited time ala guild wars 2.
 
Kudos for carbine outlasting ESO in the sub market, but now that they are the only mmo with sub fees, maybe its time to make the game a bit more accessible?
 
I'm interested in the communities thoughts on the matter
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Every time people make this statement and ignore how contradictory they're being, I can't help but facepalm. Newsflash: vanity stuff is content, too - content we get with our base sub in a P2P MMO.
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Your comment is completely contradictory. ESO will still offer a sub that does all those things for you: all DLC's, new content, etc and allowing you to just login in an play. Only thing locked out to you would be the fluff in the cash shop and with 1500 free crown tokens a month for free with your sub you really aren't locked out of much there either.
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Every time people make this statement and ignore how contradictory they're being, I can't help but facepalm. Newsflash: vanity stuff is content, too - content we get with our base sub in a P2P MMO.
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Not true. World's two larget MMO's by sub numbers (WoW and FFXIV:ARR) both have items for sale on their websites that give you mounts/costumes/gender switching potions/etc that is not available in game by any other means. Basically an outside the game cash shop run by the devs. It is a form of double dipping, and if WoW with its 10milion subs and FFXIV 2.5 million subs is doing, it clearly refutes that argument.
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Point me in the direction of the vanity cash shop in WildStar. (If it were here, I'd be gone.)
 
There's also a matter of scale.
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			It's not a backtrack. In F2P (or B2P) games, the vast majority, or even ALL, of "extra" (side, fun, fluff, whatever you want to call it) content goes up on the cash shop. This is not the case for sub-based games.	
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I'd pay cash money for in-game stuff. Not gear or game breaking items like that, but dyes or other cosmetic items for sure. And hoverboards. And hoverboard tricks.
 
You guys should really add hoverboard tricks to your game.	
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