110772-a-crafters-thoughts-on-raid-drops-vs-crafted-item-balance

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I'm an old crafter.  Old enough to remember when these essays were new.  Crafting is a core component of what I do in MMOs and one of the things I really enjoy about Wildstar is the crafting system, that allows me to create customized pieces of equipment for my friends and guldmates.  I enjoy that crafting in Wildstar is useful and has a purpose, instead of just being a money sink or a side game.  I would love to see it expanded in the future and I think most people crafting today would as well.
 
I linked those essays because they're still relevant today.
 
I have been watching the recent announcements about itemization and I am concerned by them.  Before anyone freaks out, I agree that the current situation, where crafted gear eclipses some raid drops, is not healthy.  Drops should be desirable - the things you get from defeating very hard encounters should generally constitute upgrades.
 
However I feel like the balance pendulum is about to swing too far in the other direction.  Simply put, I want the things that I craft to be useful to raiders.  That doesn't mean they have to be better than everything that drops on raids.  But they should be able to be competitive.
 
So, I would like to propose an addition to the upcoming itemization changes that would allow equipment crafting to be worth the time put into it once the crafter is at raid level:
 
Legendary power cores.  Have them drop, along with similar quality gear pieces, in raids.  Using these, a crafter should be able to make a piece of equipment that is on par with a raid drop.
 
Edit:  Nazryn makes a *very* good point below about technologists and how if we're going to add legendary power cores, they should be craftable by technologists using raid drops.  I just wanted to add in that I totally support that sort of interdependence as well.
 
In fact I would go so far as to say that these should happen instead of the tokens that were discussed in today's Nexus report.  Let the crafting system fill the gap when the drop table isn't cooperating.  Didn't get a light armor piece on that last run?  No problem, take that core you grabbed to your local tailor.
 
I'm sure others will have their own take or disagree with me, but I feel like this is the sort of thing that the Devs need to get right the first time, so I wanted to post this now, before those itemization changes that were discussed today go into effect.	
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Can't wait for the bs, on those and I mean them making it bad not us crafters making it useful. Anyway, where the hell are these nexus reports..... ...... everything is scattered everywhere, yea im over reacting. Link thanks.
 
Update:
Thanx Neph, I allowed http and twitch still didn't even show the video, anyway i'll see what i can put together with what I can find...	
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I don't have the link handy as I'm still at work.  It streams on Twitch every Tuesday afternoon.
 
Here's Vic's TL;DR thread to get you started though:  https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/110766-8-26-14-nexus-report-tldr/	
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as a crafter, with alts that cover weaponsmithing, tailor, techno, and even architect, i AGREE
 
i really hated that feeling of slowly becoming useless once adv/dungeons were the replacement.
i kept hearing, why go fibermod when you can just grind for "insert drop here"
and that led to people wanting crafted items to tide them over while they grinded for said drop.
meaning, it crashed the market for what should be a THRIVING business for crafters.
 
the last bastion crafters have right now, is the simple fact that items that push the limit, like a shirt with 125 finesse, is still desirable... for now
but take that away? crafters will ignore crafting... the market for crafted items will freefall... and you will lose an entire tradecraft
 
i'm a bit concerned at the changes...
i'd like a way to stay relevant, and bringing some epic mats to your local crazy crafter to make legendaries out of... seems rewarding
and would be rewarding to crafters.
 
EDIT:
OR maybe adding someway to have a "breakthrough" instead of research.
here you are, crafting some stuff, and suddenly, some mixtures spill, some fires flare, energies go wild
and viola~ your crafting station is on fire! ... oh but whats that shining in the wreckage? tis a mighty artifact, brought forth by luck and misfortune!
 
... something like that would be fun	
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I am a crafter myself and even judge an MMO based on its crafting system and its relevance to the economy. However, I just cannot see how crafting and raids will be on par. Even if powercores were to drop from raids, in which crafters will be capable of crafting a legendary items and sell it on the market it will ultimately downplay the value of raids. What i mean is players of all types including casual, semi-hardcore, and hardcore raiders will be capable of progression through raids (or all levels of pve) much easier or very easily.
 
It's why you never see a meaningful crafting system in themepark MMOs. I will say that FFXI is the exception but I don't really consider FFXI a modern themepark mmo I see it as 1/2 themepark and 1/2 sandbox maybe a themebox mmo? Personally what I THINK they should do is make the gear from level 1-50 come from crafters more so than drops, npcs, or quests. At least in that sense crafting will be much more relevant. But then there will be a few other things they would need to address as well in the crafting system itself.	
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I see it as 1/2 themepark and 1/2 sandbox maybe a themebox mmo?
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Nope, SandPark.
 
 :)
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I'm an old crafter.  Old enough to remember when these essays were new.  Crafting is a core component of what I do in MMOs and one of the things I really enjoy about Wildstar is the crafting system, that allows me to create customized pieces of equipment for my friends and guldmates.  I enjoy that crafting in Wildstar is useful and has a purpose, instead of just being a money sink or a side game.  I would love to see it expanded in the future and I think most people crafting today would as well.
 
I linked those essays because they're still relevant today.
 
I have been watching the recent announcements about itemization and I am concerned by them.  Before anyone freaks out, I agree that the current situation, where crafted gear eclipses some raid drops, is not healthy.  Drops should be desirable - the things you get from defeating very hard encounters should generally constitute upgrades.
 
However I feel like the balance pendulum is about to swing too far in the other direction.  Simply put, I want the things that I craft to be useful to raiders.  That doesn't mean they have to be better than everything that drops on raids.  But they should be able to be competitive.
 
So, I would like to propose an addition to the upcoming itemization changes that would allow equipment crafting to be worth the time put into it once the crafter is at raid level:
 
Legendary power cores.  Have them drop, along with similar quality gear pieces, in raids.  Using these, a crafter should be able to make a piece of equipment that is on par with a raid drop.
 
In fact I would go so far as to say that these should happen instead of the tokens that were discussed in today's Nexus report.  Let the crafting system fill the gap when the drop table isn't cooperating.  Didn't get a light armor piece on that last run?  No problem, take that core you grabbed to your local tailor.
 
I'm sure others will have their own take or disagree with me, but I feel like this is the sort of thing that the Devs need to get right the first time, so I wanted to post this now, before those itemization changes that were discussed today go into effect.
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Definitely agree with the OP. 
The announcement of tokens in today's stream, along with the intent to make raid items *always* best in slot over crafting is the boat turning in wrong direction.	
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Better yet; have raid dropped materials for crafts. 
 
As a technologist, I will raise all levels of hell if Carbine gives a legendary power core to DROP status instead of giving that to us techs as a craft. 
 
That said; I would love it if to craft a legendary core we needed raid-only item drops. 
 
-Naz
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Definitely agree with the OP. 
The announcement of tokens in today's stream, along with the intent to make raid items *always* best in slot over crafting is the boat turning in wrong direction.
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Crafters absolutely should not be cast aside...however as it currently stands, crafted gear is bis across the board for the majority of players far beyond where it needs to be. Hopefully they can devise a token system that is friendly to everyone, crafters included.
 
The patterns for the current gear do not even drop in raids, yet it's still better.
 
Gear itemization has been a black eye for this game in general. It needs fixed, has needed fixed, and now they are addressing it. I'm not a crafter, and I also do not want to see it trivialized, but it needs balanced.
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While not concrete, I've found some info to suggest that crafting is intended to continue being relevant.
 
 
1) Technologists will be able to craft regular, refined, and luminite hybrid power cores. Source: https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/108368-expert-technologist-research-details/
 
2) With the Defile update, new schematics for Weaponsmith, Armorer, Outfitter, and Tailor will be found in the Genetic Archives raid.  Source: https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/104670-ptr-update-notes-defile-111-8012014/
 
3) Crafting as a means to mass salvage will have more depth and potentially profitability, as salvaging blues will have double the chance to proc rare yields, compared to a nearly unobservable difference now.  Source: https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/109875-rune-changes-part-7-improvements-to-acquiring-runes-and-runecrafting-materials/	
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In fact I would go so far as to say that these should happen instead of the tokens that were discussed in today's Nexus report.  Let the crafting system fill the gap when the drop table isn't cooperating.  Didn't get a light armor piece on that last run?  No problem, take that core you grabbed to your local tailor.
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Definitely agree with the OP. 
The announcement of tokens in today's stream, along with the intent to make raid items *always* best in slot over crafting is the boat turning in wrong direction.
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While not concrete, I've found some info to suggest that crafting is intended to continue being relevant.
 
 
1) Technologists will be able to craft regular, refined, and luminite hybrid power cores. Source: https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/108368-expert-technologist-research-details/
 
2) With the Defile update, new schematics for Weaponsmith, Armorer, Outfitter, and Tailor will be found in the Genetic Archives raid.  Source: https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/104670-ptr-update-notes-defile-111-8012014/
 
3) Crafting as a means to mass salvage will have more depth and potentially profitability, as salvaging blues will have double the chance to proc rare yields, compared to a nearly unobservable difference now.  Source: https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/109875-rune-changes-part-7-improvements-to-acquiring-runes-and-runecrafting-materials/
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			100% agree with OP. As raid gear gets stronger and encounters get tougher, ALL the crafting professions should remain useful. The most obvious way is to have crafting recipes/materials that drop only in raids	
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1) Technologists will be able to craft regular, refined, and luminite hybrid power cores. Source: https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/108368-expert-technologist-research-details/
 
2) With the Defile update, new schematics for Weaponsmith, Armorer, Outfitter, and Tailor will be found in the Genetic Archives raid.  Source: https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/104670-ptr-update-notes-defile-111-8012014/
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Better yet; have raid dropped materials for crafts. 
 
As a technologist, I will raise all levels of hell if Carbine gives a legendary power core to DROP status instead of giving that to us techs as a craft. 
 
That said; I would love it if to craft a legendary core we needed raid-only item drops. 
 
-Naz
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I think if they have the technology they should change what soulbound means.  From untradable to unequipable.  Meaning an item soulbound to Bob can be traded around but only Bob can equip it.  And stuff crafted from a soulbound item would be soulbound to the original owner.
 
example: Bob gets a crafting material from a raid to make an armor.  It is soulbound to him.  But he is not an armorsmith. So he gives it to his armorsmith, Jane, who makes it into the item he wants.  But when armor is crafted the item is already soulbound to the owner of the material, Bob.  Jane cannon equip it or try to sell it to others.  Only Bob can equip it.
 
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			I literally just made a thread about this exact thing. Glad to know that there is some consent in the community.	
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			whats a consignment system?	
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Completely agree, most games allow crafting to become just a way of making money and not being useful.
 
I was wondering how and what was planned to keep crafting useful and in the game.  It's pretty dire when it stagnates, it becomes something you don't even look at again and may as well take two gathering ones and make money!	
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The problem ist that crafting is best in slot till you raid, for what should i go adventure or dungeon when i just can craft better gear without any afford.
And even many Raiditems are worth than craftet gear.
 
Crafting should fill in if you dont have luck with your drops.	
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The problem ist that crafting is best in slot till you raid, for what should i go adventure or dungeon when i just can craft better gear without any afford.
And even many Raiditems are worth than craftet gear.
 
Crafting should fill in if you dont have luck with your drops.
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			The way the guy said crafted gear should just be enough to get your foot in the door for dungeons is kind of blahThat's pretty friggain sad, modern mmo's seem to all think crafting should just be some lame side hobby where everything uses the same generic, super easy to get materials and never make actually good items.Really miss the days when crafting actually had varied materials from varied sources and trading refined materials between professions and super strong crafts using rare materials.Is it really that difficult to create a deep system of gathering and crafting?crafting is only even good at all in this game because of the standard carbine *cupcake* poor design choices and complete and utter lack of insight. The really good crafts aren't even the top of the line ones that require research... It's really just stupid. "Crafting is only good because we completely botched it!" woo	
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whats a consignment system?
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A consignment crafting system is a way where you can have the ingredients in your inventory and contract another player to make the item.  When the item is made, the ingredients are pulled from your inventory instead of the crafter's, and the resulting item appears in your inventory.
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			What you propose is interesting, OP, but takes more time and coding than what they decided on. That puts a big con against your idea.	
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What you propose is interesting, OP, but takes more time and coding than what they decided on. That puts a big con against your idea.
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Didn't feel like reading the whole thread so apologies if it's already been suggested. My suggestion is simply why not just have max level crafters research and aquire some of the best and coolest costumes in the game. It allows crafters to still have economical relevance but allow Raids to have the be all wnd all gear.
 
Just my 2¢	
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Does it really? I think that's the wrong attitude to have. If the solution proposed is not sufficient for the players (who pay the money that pays developer salaries), then the appropriate action is to rethink and change the solution. That is a large part of why these forums exist, and I'm quite sure that the development team would much rather have feedback before they do something, than lose subs afterwards because they made a mistake.
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Wrong or right, it's probably a big concern and decision factor especially when people are even mad it's coming in a month. You tell them you need 3-6 months and meanwhile have fun with the current system. Ha.
Can they work on developing future upgrades to loot in such a way as to integrate core changes that take a few months? Certainly.
 
Is it right or wrong, that is irrelevant. Do you want reality or dreams of bunnies?
 
Also I have not seen much indication so far that Carbine is willing to postpone and do the hard design. Many times they have gone for fixes that are so-so but can be delivered in a smaller time frame.
 
You might not like reality, but that doesn't make it go away.
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I agree with the OP.
 
Also wasn't there a quote somewhere by J-Tal saying they're going to tune down crafting by upping the minimal values we can tank on some circuits so as to not be able to reach higher in the main stat circuit ?
 
Sorry can't find it again  :mellow: !
 
EDIT / finally found one of the two quotes about it, but still can't find the other one :
 
 
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[...] There are two issues causing this that we are looking to address.
 
First is that crafted items have no minimum threshold for turning down stats you don't want so you can turn up stats you do. Non-crafted items do have a threshold. It's about 10% of the total budget (usually between 12-20%). So you can dump a ton of budget into the 'better' stats and make the crafted item better than intended.
 
Second is that [...]
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Didn't feel like reading the whole thread so apologies if it's already been suggested. My suggestion is simply why not just have max level crafters research and aquire some of the best and coolest costumes in the game. It allows crafters to still have economical relevance but allow Raids to have the be all wnd all gear.
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Crafting doesn’t fit as a primary gear path in theme park MMORPGs.  Its place should be a starting point or a catch-up mechanic.  Gearing is one of the major driving forces for players to repeat content, particularly group content.  Players losing the motivation to repeat the content reduces the lifespan of that content.  The problem is that if you make pieces comparable, then the easier to obtain piece becomes the go-to piece (dungeon blues versus crafting). 
 
This shortened lifespan leaves players with little to do to improve their character, or with a skewed skill/time vs. reward ratio that leaves them unmotivated.  Honestly, people would complain a whole lot less about failing silver (or gold) dungeons if their group was getting constant upgrades, but instead it is just mostly wasted gear because of crafting.  Crafting is a one-time grind at launch and expansions, so the time it adds to gameplay is minimal.  The economic game is more on playing the market than it is in crafting.
 
I guess I never understood the appeal of crafting in a theme park base game.	
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			I cant wait til the nerf comes to crafting gear. Crafting gear should never ever be near raid gear. Should be crafted gear, adventure gear, dungeon gear/epic world drops, then raid gear and people who craft, shouldnt be able to ever craft any gear on par with raid gear in the future. Being able to craft gear on par with raid would bring the same problem we have now. It happened in Star Wars, people were able to craft raid level gear essentially and you had a bunch of people who had never even raided wearing raid level gear and being bad in raids when they entered them. Earn your gear should be the model this game strives for. 	
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			Imo a crafted item should be much harder to make than a single rng drop and hence should be much better than a drop, like the Sulfurous in wow :D 	
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Imo a crafted item should be much harder to make than a single rng drop and hence should be much better than a drop, like the Sulfurous in wow :D
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The ability to craft pre-raid bis items is a major contributor to the ghost towns they are currently running on all but 2 servers.  Sometimes it seems like people forget that the thing that drives people to continue to play these games is character progression.  When people can no longer improve their character, they stop playing.  And since people can now buy/make raid quality gear when they hit 50 (even if they haven't sniffed a raid because they can't get attuned) they don't play.
 
The solution to making end game crafting viable (which I think I saw mentioned already - consignment) is to allow crafters to craft items that are bind on acquire and go directly into the buyer's inventory. This would allow a person who is running group content (5man, 20man, 40man) to get crafting materials out of an instance and have an item made that would be on par with items dropped from that instance, but it would prevent fresh 50s from acquiring bis items the second they ding 50.  Crafting should not be the only way to acquire the item, but should offer a discount on the instance specific crafting material so that the crafter can make a profit.  As an example, item A costs 7 pieces of dropped dungeon currency  at an npc vendor but a crafter can craft it for 4 pieces of the currency.  Crafting would be worth while, and people would have a reason to run dungeons.  You could still have nice rare dropped items coexisting with crafted items, and a crafter's margin would be determined by the rarity of the dungeon currency.
 
Nothing above is a new concept, and that model has been implemented in plenty of mmos, and it works (it keeps people playing - which I would think is the ultimate goal of any mmo maker).  Allowing crafters to continue to create bis items out of crap people find doing their dailies and throw them up on the AH for anyone to buy is not a model that is viable.
 
I do not believe that Carbine has the ability to implement something like this during this tier of gear.  The only real option that they have at the present is to keep crafted gear static, bump dungeon blues to be equal power to crafted, and bump dungeon purples and raid items above.  They would then need to tune the encounters to the new gear.  Luckily for them, they have an opportunity to do so when the fix the mess they made out of their itemization strategy (ie. let's only stack ap + the stat that contributes to ap and dump everything else).  Crafters would still have a place in the market making gear for people who have just turned level 50 (in fact it is the same place they own now), and you might actually see some people running dungeons / adventures.
 
As an aside, I really enjoy this game.  The combat is fun, the world is well crafted, and it seems like there is more to it than some other mmos.  That being said, it amazes me how poor a job the developers of this game did at learning from the mistakes of other mmos.	
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The ability to craft pre-raid bis items is a major contributor to the ghost towns they are currently running on all but 2 servers. 
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uh, no.
 
Most classes / specs don't actually have much BiS gear that is crafted.... 
 
While there are reasonable arguments about how useful crafted gear should be.. It is almost certainly not the major contributor to the player concurrency issues.
 
Heck, my Heal spec medic has only one piece of BiS gear out of 12 slots that is crafted (the adventus heal spec chest); and my DPS medic has zero BiS pieces out of 12 slots that are crafted. IIRC DPS engineers have the highest, with crated gear comprising 6/12 slots as BiS. 
 
Is it excessive? Probably. But there is some serious hyperbole going on to suggest player concurrency problems are due to crafted gear.
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Maybe not bis in all slots, but far too "good enough" for many to bother in contrast to random stat low drop rate dungeon gear.
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Crafting doesn’t fit as a primary gear path in theme park MMORPGs.  Its place should be a starting point or a catch-up mechanic.  Gearing is one of the major driving forces for players to repeat content, particularly group content.  Players losing the motivation to repeat the content reduces the lifespan of that content.  The problem is that if you make pieces comparable, then the easier to obtain piece becomes the go-to piece (dungeon blues versus crafting). 
 
This shortened lifespan leaves players with little to do to improve their character, or with a skewed skill/time vs. reward ratio that leaves them unmotivated.  Honestly, people would complain a whole lot less about failing silver (or gold) dungeons if their group was getting constant upgrades, but instead it is just mostly wasted gear because of crafting.  Crafting is a one-time grind at launch and expansions, so the time it adds to gameplay is minimal.  The economic game is more on playing the market than it is in crafting.
 
I guess I never understood the appeal of crafting in a theme park base game.
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			One solution I guess might be to have the best craftable patterns actually drop in the raids. Then it doesn`t so much matter if the crafts are better than straight drops in some respects because you have to do the same thing to get them anyway. But to spend three hours in a crafting booth with mats you`ve farmed solo to then get to create raid equivalent gear is just silly I think. There could also be poweful unique effects on crafted gear but not as much stat value as raid drops. That way crafted gear might be preferable with certain builds but not with others. As long as you make crafted and drops identical and just balance the stats you`re screwing someone over either way.	
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good enough" ... well sure Dea, I'll give ya that.... but so what? there are green pieces that are 'good enough' to run vet dungeons and some that can start ya in GA.
 
The 'crafted gear is BiS' is just a tad overblown. Some pieces do have a single stat stacked prettty high; that makes some pretty good; others not so much. After the updates it will be much less powerful.... It's not like folks can just stack crafted gear and have the best set. And I don't honestly buy that argument; since you can also buy world epics that can be equally as useful.
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Crafting doesn’t fit as a primary gear path in theme park MMORPGs.  Its place should be a starting point or a catch-up mechanic.  Gearing is one of the major driving forces for players to repeat content, particularly group content.  Players losing the motivation to repeat the content reduces the lifespan of that content.  The problem is that if you make pieces comparable, then the easier to obtain piece becomes the go-to piece (dungeon blues versus crafting). 
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Some random thoughts to add to the discussion - it's late, and it's been a long day.
 
1) I think it's a little bit silly for us to be comparing the usefulness of crafted gear to current drops when the developers have already gone on record saying that current drops are way too random and that they want to change drops to be focused more on things that actually make sense - you know, the same thing crafters have been doing with the things they make.  We know that the loot drops are going to change, ostensibly for the better - those dungeon and raid drops will be far more useful after this happens than they were prior, regardless of anything related to crafting.
 
2) We also know that stacking one stat on crafted gear (which is realistically the source of the whole BiS nonsense) is going to become much less of a thing - someone quoted it above, but J-Tal already posted that the devs are making some changes to crafting in order to prevent that from happening.  Which, by the way, I am in complete favor of.
 
3) I find the arguments that people only play the game for character progression to be, well, a bit ridiculous.  We play the game for fun.  Character progression is a part of that fun.  It is hardly the only reason people play and stick around at 50.  If character progression is truly the only thing that matters and the only reason that someone keeps playing, I'd like to introduce them to a much cheaper game they can download and play for free - without having to deal with any of the silliness of queues or getting people together or any of those distractions.  Here's a link - enjoy your character progression.
 
4) I've played quite a few games where endgame crafted gear had a place right up there with raid gear.  It's not as impossible to balance as anyone thinks.  The rules are simple:
- There should be both unique things that can be crafted and unique things that are looted.  This way both are desirable
- Endgame crafting requires resources and components from endgame activities.  Do the content to get the rewards, whether looted or crafted.
- There should be multiple levels of rarity.  If everything is "just blue", you end up with a lot of pointless items cluttering up the database.  There should be blues, purples, oranges, golds, and so on.
- Complexity should matter.  If all a class cares about is a single stat, you might as well forget about itemization altogether and just give them stat boosts via some kind of experience bar.
 
5) As experienced gamers (which I hope that most of us are) we need to stop adhering to overly simplistic concepts like "Best in Slot".  "Best in Slot" is a crutch, a product of games that didn't challenge anyone to do anything other than read a forum or watch a video to know what to wear, what buttons to press, and where to stand.  Sadly, we bought into it, like the rat that gets cheese every time he presses the blue button instead of the red one.  Instead of saying that this or that item should always be the best, we should be asking for diversity within our classes, for multiple viable ways to play our characters, and for enough complexity so that at endgame, we don't all look like we shop at the same store when we're not wearing our costumes.  Anything less is a disservice to ourselves and to the time and money we spend on our hobby.	
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Well that is the discussion and I disagree with you greatly.  The driving force is players want to progress their characters.  In a themepark MMO that is thru gear.  The question is how do we get that gear? We don't repeat content for gear specifically.  We repeat it for drops (which is usually drops of gear).  But keep in mind that amps also drop.  Money drops.  Soon amp/ablity points will drop.
 
What we're all saying here is basically there's no reason crafting materials can't drop.  And what is crafted from it should be on par with the other stuff that drops with it
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Some random thoughts to add to the discussion - it's late, and it's been a long day.
 
1) I think it's a little bit silly for us to be comparing the usefulness of crafted gear to current drops when the developers have already gone on record saying that current drops are way too random and that they want to change drops to be focused more on things that actually make sense - you know, the same thing crafters have been doing with the things they make.  We know that the loot drops are going to change, ostensibly for the better - those dungeon and raid drops will be far more useful after this happens than they were prior, regardless of anything related to crafting.
 
2) We also know that stacking one stat on crafted gear (which is realistically the source of the whole BiS nonsense) is going to become much less of a thing - someone quoted it above, but J-Tal already posted that the devs are making some changes to crafting in order to prevent that from happening.  Which, by the way, I am in complete favor of.
 
3) I find the arguments that people only play the game for character progression to be, well, a bit ridiculous.  We play the game for fun.  Character progression is a part of that fun.  It is hardly the only reason people play and stick around at 50.  If character progression is truly the only thing that matters and the only reason that someone keeps playing, I'd like to introduce them to a much cheaper game they can download and play for free - without having to deal with any of the silliness of queues or getting people together or any of those distractions.  Here's a link - enjoy your character progression.
 
4) I've played quite a few games where endgame crafted gear had a place right up there with raid gear.  It's not as impossible to balance as anyone thinks.  The rules are simple:
- There should be both unique things that can be crafted and unique things that are looted.  This way both are desirable
- Endgame crafting requires resources and components from endgame activities.  Do the content to get the rewards, whether looted or crafted.
- There should be multiple levels of rarity.  If everything is "just blue", you end up with a lot of pointless items cluttering up the database.  There should be blues, purples, oranges, golds, and so on.
- Complexity should matter.  If all a class cares about is a single stat, you might as well forget about itemization altogether and just give them stat boosts via some kind of experience bar.
 
5) As experienced gamers (which I hope that most of us are) we need to stop adhering to overly simplistic concepts like "Best in Slot".  "Best in Slot" is a crutch, a product of games that didn't challenge anyone to do anything other than read a forum or watch a video to know what to wear, what buttons to press, and where to stand.  Sadly, we bought into it, like the rat that gets cheese every time he presses the blue button instead of the red one.  Instead of saying that this or that item should always be the best, we should be asking for diversity within our classes, for multiple viable ways to play our characters, and for enough complexity so that at endgame, we don't all look like we shop at the same store when we're not wearing our costumes.  Anything less is a disservice to ourselves and to the time and money we spend on our hobby.
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I think the fact that a lot of players tend to leave (or at least become less active) in these MMOs once they hit end game, doesn't seem to agree with your third point. Once you reach end game you're basically left with the act or preparation of doing raids or some sort of rated pvp, which at this stage is where progression hits a wall or certainly slows down. Players do play for fun but the fun is in the progression.
 
 
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3) I find the arguments that people only play the game for character progression to be, well, a bit ridiculous.  We play the game for fun.  Character progression is a part of that fun.  It is hardly the only reason people play and stick around at 50.  If character progression is truly the only thing that matters and the only reason that someone keeps playing, I'd like to introduce them to a much cheaper game they can download and play for free - without having to deal with any of the silliness of queues or getting people together or any of those distractions.  Here's a link - enjoy your character progression.
 
 
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Is it excessive? Probably. But there is some serious hyperbole going on to suggest player concurrency problems are due to crafted gear.
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			I always saw crafting as a bridge between Reg and Vet and/or Vet and Raid. Usually in raid, you will find the patern to gear up people to the raid able level, not more.	
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Another thing to think about here is diversity.  As players we get stuck in thinking about "the best" gear.  What if there's not a "best" item?  What if it's situational?  What if depending on other choices we make, the type of thing we want to fill that slot on our character sheet changes?  The more diversity we have in the game, the less conflict there is between drops and crafted items - because the developers can do things like say:  "Ok, the dropped breastplate has a threshold of X for these stats, but the crafted gear only has a threshold of Y for the same stats.  However, the crafted gear can have these different stats at a threshold of X"  The end result?  Depending what you want, sometimes you go for crafted, or sometimes you go for the loot.  But that only works if there's enough diversity in terms of the stats we value to make the choices meaningful.
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So the answer here is:  Don't make it BoP?
 
I know it's heresy to some folks, but there's really no reason that raid-level gear can't be BoE, as long as it's still difficult to obtain in the first place.  That includes raid-level crafted gear.  If I have to kill a raid boss to get the power core, the market's not suddenly going to be flooded with items that render actually going to kill the boss pointless.  Instead what's going to happen is that I'm going to use the few power cores I get to help "augment" the stuff the boss dropped for myself and my guild.  So that power core will get turned into pants for our Esper, who has been having really bad luck with drops, or a new set of resonators for our Medic to make them more effective at healing, or so on.
 
Another thing to think about here is diversity.  As players we get stuck in thinking about "the best" gear.  What if there's not a "best" item?  What if it's situational?  What if depending on other choices we make, the type of thing we want to fill that slot on our character sheet changes?  The more diversity we have in the game, the less conflict there is between drops and crafted items - because the developers can do things like say:  "Ok, the dropped breastplate has a threshold of X for these stats, but the crafted gear only has a threshold of Y for the same stats.  However, the crafted gear can have these different stats at a threshold of X"  The end result?  Depending what you want, sometimes you go for crafted, or sometimes you go for the loot.  But that only works if there's enough diversity in terms of the stats we value to make the choices meaningful.
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The issue is that any stat based game is a glorified spreadsheet.  There will be a best build (which uses the best gear for that build) in terms of output or in terms of ease of use (if output is equal).  Sure, you could make a game that might have a best AoE build, or a best build with 3 interrupts, or a best debuff build, etc. but there will be an ideal build with ideal gear to support it, and there is a limit to how many different builds and gear sets a player will tolerate.
 
Yes, chasing only BIS is foolish, as it, hopefully, isn't a realistic goal for the majority of players to reach before the next batch of content.  But the issue with crafting is how it compares to the other options.  I mean if the crafted item is 5% less powerful, but requires 25% less effort  you are going to have a large population that will just get the crafted piece, that population will not repeat the content for the 20th+ time for a drop, and that reduced activity means reduced contact with friends/guildmates in the game and makes it a lot easier to quit.  
 
You would counter that the crafted piece should be created with mats from the dungeon/raid, but now all you are doing is shifting drops into materials, or you are adding materials (even from salvaging useless drops) in addition to the drops and increasing the gear acquisition rate, which would lead to shortening of the content. The crafter just becomes some glorified NPC that you turn your mats into, as the crafting process and the crafter themselves aren't really as important as that raw material.  It seems to add an unnecessary step to the gearing process just so crafters can stay relevant.
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So the answer here is:  Don't make it BoP?
 
I know it's heresy to some folks, but there's really no reason that raid-level gear can't be BoE, as long as it's still difficult to obtain in the first place.  That includes raid-level crafted gear.  If I have to kill a raid boss to get the power core, the market's not suddenly going to be flooded with items that render actually going to kill the boss pointless.  Instead what's going to happen is that I'm going to use the few power cores I get to help "augment" the stuff the boss dropped for myself and my guild.  So that power core will get turned into pants for our Esper, who has been having really bad luck with drops, or a new set of resonators for our Medic to make them more effective at healing, or so on.
 
Another thing to think about here is diversity.  As players we get stuck in thinking about "the best" gear.  What if there's not a "best" item?  What if it's situational?  What if depending on other choices we make, the type of thing we want to fill that slot on our character sheet changes?  The more diversity we have in the game, the less conflict there is between drops and crafted items - because the developers can do things like say:  "Ok, the dropped breastplate has a threshold of X for these stats, but the crafted gear only has a threshold of Y for the same stats.  However, the crafted gear can have these different stats at a threshold of X"  The end result?  Depending what you want, sometimes you go for crafted, or sometimes you go for the loot.  But that only works if there's enough diversity in terms of the stats we value to make the choices meaningful.
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Don't you know?  Player concurrency problems are always because of <insert current topic>.
 
 
Hey, look at those PTR patch notes, is that a new tier of research schematics that drops in GA that I see?  The devs were listening before you even said anything.
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^ Pretty much this I was going to respond with the same discussion. The truth is crafting does not work very well in a themepark mmo, especially when the focus of progression is raiding or rated pvp. I called this out in beta and knew that crafting would just be a side mechanic nothing that would hold much value overall. Because if it was worthwhile, as in being just as good or better than raid and pvp gear then it undermines pve and pvp content. But of course if crafted gear isn't as good as pve and pvp gear then crafting will be nearly worthless. And it's natural for developers to pick the pve and pvp gear to be better than crafted gear because their purpose to have players play the content and be rewarded for their achievements.
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The issue is that any stat based game is a glorified spreadsheet.  There will be a best build (which uses the best gear for that build) in terms of output or in terms of ease of use (if output is equal).  Sure, you could make a game that might have a best AoE build, or a best build with 3 interrupts, or a best debuff build, etc. but there will be an ideal build with ideal gear to support it, and there is a limit to how many different builds and gear sets a player will tolerate.
 
Yes, chasing only BIS is foolish, as it, hopefully, isn't a realistic goal for the majority of players to reach before the next batch of content.  But the issue with crafting is how it compares to the other options.  I mean if the crafted item is 5% less powerful, but requires 25% less effort  you are going to have a large population that will just get the crafted piece, that population will not repeat the content for the 20th+ time for a drop, and that reduced activity means reduced contact with friends/guildmates in the game and makes it a lot easier to quit.  
 
You would counter that the crafted piece should be created with mats from the dungeon/raid, but now all you are doing is shifting drops into materials, or you are adding materials (even from salvaging useless drops) in addition to the drops and increasing the gear acquisition rate, which would lead to shortening of the content. The crafter just becomes some glorified NPC that you turn your mats into, as the crafting process and the crafter themselves aren't really as important as that raw material.  It seems to add an unnecessary step to the gearing process just so crafters can stay relevant.
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You're right that there will always be a BiS in a themepark MMO.  But there can be slight variety and still have different items be on or close to par with each other.  That is why each item has a budget.  For crafting in WS that budget is in the powercore.  
 
as to your last paragraph...well all steps are unnecessary.  how bout we just pay money and get gear.  the whole point of RNG drops is to draw out the content and add extra runs before you get what you really want.  But this topic is really all over the place.  the devs even seem to think the content is being run too much.  i mean since the devs want to trim the loot table so more useful stuff drops then doesn't that shorten the content.  they want to switch to token so more useful stuff is obtained which also shortens the content.  and that token has to be turned in somewhere.  it might as well be crafting mats instead of a token.
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