126076-wildstar-is-going-to-a-hybrid-free-to-play-model-in-august-what-are-your-thoughts-page-3

Page 1, Page 2, Page 3, Page 4, Page 5, Page 6, Page 7, Page 8, Page 9
== Content ==
			
{| class="blockquote"
Ads are, in my opinion, the fairest way of monetizing F2P. Along with a limited pay wall and (yes) limited cosmetics.
 
 
----
			Carbine needs to validate this or something. We cannot just assume something by some random dude trying to stir up some controversy.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Carbine needs to validate this or something. We cannot just assume something by some random dude trying to stir up some controversy.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This is not an us vs them argument. As I mentioned before, I am neither a fashionista nor into hardcore housing. Also, this is not MOBA nor is it aimed at the same demographic so any comparisons are lacking. I am merely pointing out the hypocrisy in the notion that it is okay to nickle a dime a portion of the population and not another regardless of what the 'general consensus' might be. In a F2P model the financial weight of the game is either split evenly across the board or leaning on a particular subset of the population.
 
Ads are, in my opinion, the fairest way of monetizing F2P. Along with a limited pay wall and (yes) limited cosmetics.
 
Ideally though, there will not be a pay wall for content as long as you are paying a subscription. F2P will carry the inconvenience of ads + paywall + limited cosmetics. Free does not mean free after all.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Adds in gaming doesn't work it was tried in the early 2000's, internet adds are also on a decline in terms of revenue gained.
The comparison to moba's was to point out that all type of players that play F2P games participate in shop items and it's not limited to just one group. 
 
If this game were to compare it self to a limited structure such as swtor it would not be good for wildstar and would turn out that this transition would be yet one of the many disasters surrounding this game.
----
			
I play tera the free 2 play model in that game is awesome. You get travel perks, gold bonus, a special mount for subbing and greater access to customer service cues also discounts on the cosmetic items in the shop. 
 
Nothing game breaking at all. This is not a neverwinter free to play model which invalidates pvp and is pay to win. As long as wildstar follows the tera model and makes it about cosmetics and personal goodies and housing and a mount plenty will also sub too. Its a win win. This is going to bring in more players and  lets say.. 1million new people.. try the game.. and even a third stay.. thats a huge uptick in population compared to before and the game will survive and begin  to grow. .. my 1 million number is on the low side considering how many people use steam and are willing to try a game if its free to play over sub.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I play tera the free 2 play model in that game is awesome. You get travel perks, gold bonus, a special mount for subbing and greater access to customer service cues also discounts on the cosmetic items in the shop. 
 
Nothing game breaking at all. This is not a neverwinter free to play model which invalidates pvp and is pay to win. As long as wildstar follows the tera model and makes it about cosmetics and personal goodies and housing and a mount plenty will also sub too. Its a win win. This is going to bring in more players and  lets say.. 1million new people.. try the game.. and even a third stay.. thats a huge uptick in population compared to before and the game will survive and begin  to grow. .. my 1 million number is on the low side considering how many people use steam and are willing to try a game if its free to play over sub.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I play tera the free 2 play model in that game is awesome. You get travel perks, gold bonus, a special mount for subbing and greater access to customer service cues also discounts on the cosmetic items in the shop.
----
			
Lethality its been proven the sub model is not working for Wildstar. You need to crawl out of the past. You can't be that granky old man who has antiquated ideas of how things have to be when you realize business models do change based on the needs of the business and the market its in. 
 
Get used to it. I subbed for a total of 6 months with this game. But lack of population and the serious game breaking issues with pvp are why I stopped. By the time they resolved the .. it took over 9 months for the serious pvp concerns to get resolved to a degree.. The population died and we are stuck on a pve server. There is  a massive community of players who love pvp who want to play on a pvp based server but we can't because there are not enough players to share in the fun. Going free to play will bring in that community. This will excite us and invigorate us and this will help the world feel alive again. OF course if you are a player who only wants to be suck in his home alone this doesn't matter to you.. But this matters a great deal to a business and especially to a mmorpg communiy for it to survive.  Wildstar is not designed like eso that is just fine for someone who wants be a hermit and not play with others. 
 
Wildstar does best when there are tons of players playing.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Lethality its been proven the sub model is not working for Wildstar. You need to crawl out of the past. You can't be that granky old man who has antiquated ideas of how things have to be when you realize business models do change based on the needs of the business and the market its in. 
 
Get used to it. I subbed for a total of 6 months with this game. But lack of population and the serious game breaking issues with pvp are why I stopped. By the time they resolved the .. it took over 9 months for the serious pvp concerns to get resolved to a degree.. The population died and we are stuck on a pve server. There is  a massive community of players who love pvp who want to play on a pvp based server but we can't because there are not enough players to share in the fun. Going free to play will bring in that community. This will excite us and invigorate us and this will help the world feel alive again. OF course if you are a player who only wants to be suck in his home alone this doesn't matter to you.. But this matters a great deal to a business and especially to a mmorpg communiy for it to survive.  Wildstar is not designed like eso that is just fine for someone who wants be a hermit and not play with others. 
 
Wildstar does best when there are tons of players playing.
----
			TEra has  a huge influx right now and the pvp ques are popping again. Does it mean a learning curve at the beginning? Absolutely. Is it worth it long term for the community? 1000 times yes.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
TEra has  a huge influx right now and the pvp ques are popping again. Does it mean a learning curve at the beginning? Absolutely. Is it worth it long term for the community? 1000 times yes.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Only from personal observation and personal experience here, but from the influx of players I experienced in another game I liked to play and PvP in, I don't like quantity over quality.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Lethality its been proven the sub model is not working for Wildstar. You need to crawl out of the past. You can't be that granky old man who has antiquated ideas of how things have to be when you realize business models do change based on the needs of the business and the market its in. 
 
Get used to it. I subbed for a total of 6 months with this game. But lack of population and the serious game breaking issues with pvp are why I stopped. By the time they resolved the .. it took over 9 months for the serious pvp concerns to get resolved to a degree.. The population died and we are stuck on a pve server. There is  a massive community of players who love pvp who want to play on a pvp based server but we can't because there are not enough players to share in the fun. Going free to play will bring in that community. This will excite us and invigorate us and this will help the world feel alive again. OF course if you are a player who only wants to be suck in his home alone this doesn't matter to you.. But this matters a great deal to a business and especially to a mmorpg communiy for it to survive.  Wildstar is not designed like eso that is just fine for someone who wants be a hermit and not play with others. 
 
Wildstar does best when there are tons of players playing.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I don't play Tera, and I absolutely will not play it ever. I don't mind new players, as long as they're willing to learn and play, but from what I've seen they are sorely outnumbered by the people that just don't care and/or are complete and utter *cupcakes*.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
While I don't disagree with you, my own personal experience tells me weather they pay for the game or it's free, the general populace is pretty horrible regardless.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I won't disagree with that, but at least with them paying for the game and actually being invested in it, they keep themselves in check :P
You know, I keep forgetting about GW2, even though I see it mentioned a lot :P I also am slowly trying Rift out again, been seeing people say it's good. Will have to try and keep GW2 in mind.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
No one said it was your job to worry about anything. But it's fine that you don't like F2P. You have an opinion, just like everybody else in the world. And no opinion is any more right or wrong than any other. However, Carbine is a business, and they have to do what they have to do to keep this game going. Whether you personally approve of their decision really doesnt matter, only whether their decision accomplishes it's intended goal.
----
			
Like I said with more people = more chances of players who stay who are good and are not NOOBs. as you all keep assuming. The elitist mantra needs to die and die fast. This is the community who still has realized the game can't survive on just little old you. That Raid or die mantra..  that its gotta be aimed at hardcore only mantra.. Guess what? this was proven wrong. The community needs more people to feel alive. IF you are not a social person and you want to only play with a few people... eso is that way. The game will do better the game will thrive. I said this weeks.. ago When the change happens the truly loyal will show their true colors for Wildstar. 
 
IF you really care for this game and this community you need to embrace this change and you need to support it. Because sadly for you.. I hate to tell you.. For ever one person who says no way  there will be thousands upon thousands  who say yes and will love this game and will share their love on social mediea on Twitch on youtube on facebook and flood the world about how they are enjoying the hell out of Wildstar. So you can be the there to be part of the community who helped embrace the relaunch.. or you can be alone playing something else.	
----
			
Not liking F2P != "raid or die".
 
But again, it doesn't matter. It's likely going to happen and I don't think even the ones who are planning to leave over it are really going to fault the decision too much.	
----
			I'm open to change. But I'm a go with the flow kind of person. That said, I really like the feel and flow of the game now. I'm not sure how to explain what I mean by that. But this game has a feel to it that I really like right now. I don't want that to change much. I like logging in and lurking in guild chat while doing contract, lvling, and/or shiphands. I like that I have a chance to get pet and mounts from this and I'm happy that I get decor (even if its the same ship or landing pad) when I do the shiphand daily. I hope those kind of rewards stay. I guess now that I type this I realize that I don't want the way I play the game to change. I don't mind a cash shop as long as they don't remove the decor, pets, mounts and improvements currently in the game to sell me. I don't mind paying $15 a month to have "vip" access or whatever that would be as long as I don't feel obligated to buy other stuff. I like the core of the game but would love to have more people. Sorry if this doesn't make much sense, but it's early and my monster hasn't kicked in yet.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Like I said with more people = more chances of players who stay who are good and are not NOOBs. as you all keep assuming. The elitist mantra needs to die and die fast. This is the community who still has realized the game can't survive on just little old you. That Raid or die mantra..  that its gotta be aimed at hardcore only mantra.. Guess what? this was proven wrong. The community needs more people to feel alive. IF you are not a social person and you want to only play with a few people... eso is that way. The game will do better the game will thrive. I said this weeks.. ago When the change happens the truly loyal will show their true colors for Wildstar. 
 
IF you really care for this game and this community you need to embrace this change and you need to support it. Because sadly for you.. I hate to tell you.. For ever one person who says no way  there will be thousands upon thousands  who say yes and will love this game and will share their love on social mediea on Twitch on youtube on facebook and flood the world about how they are enjoying the hell out of Wildstar. So you can be the there to be part of the community who helped embrace the relaunch.. or you can be alone playing something else.
----
			
This game must live.
 
Just look at my location.
 
I WILL NOT LET THIS GAME GO!	
----
			
Hey guys! Anything new happen in the last 10 pages?
 
*looks back*
 
 
Nope.
 
 :lol:	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
That Raid or die mantra..  that its gotta be aimed at hardcore only mantra.. Guess what? this was proven wrong.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Trying to have a civil discussion with you but you seem to want to take it a different way. So I'm going to ignore the rest of the words you're typing.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Hey guys! Anything new happen in the last 10 pages?
 
*looks back*
 
 
Nope.
 
 :lol:
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
WTF did I assume NOOBS and say that's why I don't like the F2P issue?  I even expressly stated I don't mind new players(oh, forgive me for being nice, I mean NOOBS) that are willing to learn and play, we were all new at one point and that's not the issue I had with the other game I played.  So I'm an elitist because I don't wan to play with a *cupcake* ton of jackwagons and bumholes?  And I'm quite a social person, which is why I have the opinion I have.  If I wasn't, then the influx of F2P jackwagons and bumholes that I fear will come wouldn't bother me.   I'm not going to embrace the change just because it *may* help, but I will at least give it a chance and if my fears of a *cupcake* ton of jackwagons and bumholes are unfounded I will stay.  But if the people that come in because of the change to F2P are intolerable to me, I will leave.  Plain and simple.
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
He's right though. If you want the game to finally succeed, it needs more players. Simple as.
 
If WildStar keeps its current model it's more likely to go bankrupt and the servers go down. Wouldn't you rather see the game you love to do well? Be played by millions?
----
			Who says the game is not succeeding? Is it making enough to stay out of the red? If it games head is about sea level, whats the problem? Because it doen't have millions of players like WoW?	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Who says the game is not succeeding? Is it making enough to stay out of the red? If it games head is about sea level, whats the problem? Because it doen't have millions of players like WoW?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
 
IF you really care for this game and this community you need to embrace this change and you need to support it. Because sadly for you.. I hate to tell you.. For ever one person who says no way  there will be thousands upon thousands  who say yes and will love this game and will share their love on social mediea on Twitch on youtube on facebook and flood the world about how they are enjoying the hell out of Wildstar. So you can be the there to be part of the community who helped embrace the relaunch.. or you can be alone playing something else.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Because the financials are terrible.
----
			Even if it makes it out of the red there is little hope for a good stream of money to keep developing the game, so then it's still a dead end.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Question was not answered, the question is, is it in the red? Is it costing more to produce/maintain the game than profits gained? If there are more profits, then what is the problem?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Who says the game is not succeeding? Is it making enough to stay out of the red? If it games head is about sea level, whats the problem? Because it doen't have millions of players like WoW?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
WIldstar will still be the same difficult game
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Even if it makes it out of the red there is little hope for a good stream of money to keep developing the game, so then it's still a dead end.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It's exactly about the comparison to other games. Not necessarily the number of players (although that's there too) but the cash flow generated by the games for the parent company and by extension the company's owners, the shareholders. Carbine and NCSoft as a whole need to generate attractive returns for their owners or those owners will sell their stake in the company and give their money to another company that can give them a better return for their investment.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
If you want new players to leave then this a sure way of doing it.
btw thank you for proven that there are bumholes also in p2p community ;)
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You imply it is in the red, but is it? Can people stop dancing around the question and answer it. A simple answer of "We don't know" would be enough evidence to show that this topic is a waste of time.
 
 
So, a "we don't know" then? Thread should be closed then, colossal waste of time since the entire thread is based off an assumption. An assumption is the mother of all screw ups.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It surely needs more players. But I am of the believe that there's enough of those out there who are willing to pay a subscription who haven't even tried it yet. I'd rather see the effort go to capturing them as opposed to any warm body with a mouse.
 
I won;'t be playing if it goes free to play or buy to play, so for me this is a final hope.
 
Again I'm not denying they need to do more to bring more revenue in, and I'm not faulting Carbine. I just don't necessarily agree with how as stated above.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You imply it is in the red, but is it? Can people stop dancing around the question and answer it. A simple answer of "We don't know" would be enough evidence to show that this topic is a waste of time.
 
 
 
So, a "we don't know" then? Thread should be closed then, colossal waste of time since the entire thread is based off an assumption. An assumption is the mother of all screw ups.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
If you want new players to leave then this a sure way of doing it.
btw thank you for proven that there are bumholes also in p2p community ;)
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 Fair enough, if you're not a fan of the model that's your decision. The sad truth is that the game has been out for about a year now, they have had time to campaign and they haven't. The advertising behind WilldStar is slim-to-none :( Sure they could put more into advertisment, but I mean how much is it REALLY going to help. Most of players who play MMOs have heard of WildStar by now, I mean pretty much most players who play World of Warcraft must have, that's roughly 5 million players who have had a look. I just don't see the game getting the extreme numbers the people who are investing their money want with just pushing for advertisement.
 
Either way, I hope they go B2P with the model as I think it's generally healthier for MMOs. It means you can have a cash shop with nothing but cosmetics, maybe some EXP boosts. Nothing too P2W involved, generally keeps the player base mature. Although saying that, it's not like Sub-based models keep in mature players, WoW is the prime example.
 
 
 
 
It's not, simple as. We have seen the quarterly results, they're not good for anybody. This is a mainstream company here, they want to make money, not keep their heads above water..
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
you had to know before you asked that no one but Carbine and NCsoft knows if they are making a profit and that is not the point really. The point is.. Is it making enough profit to justify its continued existence
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
As I have stated before, look at FPS games. How come no one is complaining about when Wolfenstein was made and brought in a lot less money than CoD? Just because you are not the #1 does not mean you are not successful.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
But we do not know if they are making money, we dont know their cost of production. We don't know any of that. For all we know is that they are making a 100% profit, which is a win in any book. 
 
AGAIN PEOPLE, you are pointlessly arguing over nothing (me included) when you do not know the whole picture.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
But we do not know if they are making money, we dont know their cost of production. We don't know any of that. For all we know is that they are making a 100% profit, which is a win in any book. 
 
AGAIN PEOPLE, you are pointlessly arguing over nothing (me included) when you do not know the whole picture.
----
			
No they posted their expenses as well. They aren't making 100% profit. I'll look and do a napkin calculation for NCSoft's contribution margin at least, although anybody could based on the numbers they posted.
 
Edit: OK, as I expected the variable costs for something like this are low, and the contribution margin is about 80% (~115b on Sales of ~144b). However, fixed costs are much higher than the variable costs (~68b). This gives us an operating margin of about 32%, from which we take all other expenses to get a net income of ~40b, and a profit margin of about 27%.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Fair enough, if you're not a fan of the model that's your decision. The sad truth is that the game has been out for about a year now, they have had time to campaign and they haven't. The advertising behind WilldStar is slim-to-none :( Sure they could put more into advertisment, but I mean how much is it REALLY going to help. Most of players who play MMOs have heard of WildStar by now, I mean pretty much most players who play World of Warcraft must have, that's roughly 5 million players who have had a look. I just don't see the game getting the extreme numbers the people who are investing their money want with just pushing for advertisement.
 
Either way, I hope they go B2P with the model as I think it's generally healthier for MMOs. It means you can have a cash shop with nothing but cosmetics, maybe some EXP boosts. Nothing too P2W involved, generally keeps the player base mature. Although saying that, it's not like Sub-based models keep in mature players, WoW is the prime example.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Question was not answered, the question is, is it in the red? Is it costing more to produce/maintain the game than profits gained? If there are more profits, then what is the problem?
----
			
Listen I was able to with just a small conversation to convince 25 people I know from my mmo roots to try wildstar when it was a full sub game. ... Do you think I could have asked even more to try? Yes.. but many I did ask could not afford trying this game and also subbing to another game. .. Now I have been able to get even more folks to try Tera..why? Because the barrier to entry is none.. Its free. When Wildstar does go to free to play that barrier to entry will be gone. I will be trumpeting it on my facebook.. on my twitter as well. I will also be on twitch. why?  The barrier is gone and that will mean vastly more people who can try the game without fearing that the cost burden to get in is a barrier. I will put the time and effort to do so when it happens. That personal time and effort on my part will speak volumes. But I Am just one person.. I know.. but if even half the folks I connect with also sign up.. and stay.. that means they will have folks who value their opinion who will also follow their lead and try the game as well. It will have positive word of mouth. This is why The steam listing is so important so many folks only try games on steam that already have a favorable rating. Not everyone has infinite hard drive space.. infinite time or a 180 meg internet connection that allows them to download a large game on a whim. 
    I have this luxury now but not everyone does. There is no doubt in my mind one of the most fun periods of time in wildstar 's history was that time period right after launch and millions were playing and the world was vibrant and active.  IF someone prefers wildstar to be not as active as it was in that first month.. then well they are not being realistic. Wildstar needs the population and the activity and the good vibes.  This is not opinion anymore. 	
----
			
Posting this at the bottom for those people who only read the newest post:
 
 
Edit: OK, as I expected the variable costs for something like this are low, and the contribution margin is about 80% (~115b on Sales of ~144b). However, fixed costs are much higher than the variable costs (~68b). This gives us an operating margin of about 32%, from which we take all other expenses to get a net income of ~40b, and a profit margin of about 27%.
 
Keep in mind that WildStar only contributed to about 1.6% of NCSoft's 1st quarter sales. So I can't imagine there's a lot of love at the main office for Carbine's performance at this point.
 
Oh, and GW2 made almost 8 times what WildStar did in sales in the 1st quarter.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The time for that exposure is now (or soon). If they are adding the game to Steam, and now with all of the refinements and bug fixes since launch, it's more likely to hold new players.
 
Most of the players who play MMOs have not even tried WildStar, that's an important fact. It means there are many more out there who could be willing to pay a subscription if they enjoy the game.
 
It's not the maturity of p2p games that is the issue... it's the total lack of emotional investment by f2p b2p players - there's reason to stay dedicated and continue playing. It's a throwaway game at that point - very bad for a persistent world social game.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yes.. but many I did ask could not afford trying this game and also subbing to another game
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Go back and read the flow of his comments. First the poster said he/she was unhappy about the changes, then people have proceeded to question him/her about that. Now, you are saying his/her opinion doesn't matter.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
So, a "we don't know" then? Thread should be closed then, colossal waste of time since the entire thread is based off an assumption. An assumption is the mother of all screw ups.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yes but they have heard about it. Don't pretend WildStar didn't have an insane hype train, because it did. Probably one of the biggest hype trains since SWTOR and maybe Age of Conan from years ago. People have had time to check the game out by now, figure out if it's worth paying for then committing to yet another online subscription fee. 
 
I've taken playing Guild Wars just as seriously as World of Warcraft despite the lack of sub fee.. Where are you getting that information from? Maybe you should log onto something like GW2 of recent, it's doing fairly well! And I'd argue to say WildStar is the better game, so imagine what the model would do for it :)
----
			Why not trumpet the game anyway?  Let the people you'll be telling it to decide if they are able and/or willing to get over any of those barriers, instead of making the assumption they won't or can't.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
So, a "we don't know" then? Thread should be closed then, colossal waste of time since the entire thread is based off an assumption. An assumption is the mother of all screw ups.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
F2P or B2P are just throwaway games and garner no investment or dedication from players. They can walk away whenever, and where does that leave their team and social structure? It doesn't even exist in those games because no one cares about them.
----
			
I just looked at the consolidated income statement for NCSoft, which includes all of their interests, and the profit margin there is about 19%. They also own something called Hotdog Studio, which is hilarious.
 
But at least now maybe we can stop pretending like WildStar is contributing anything more than a blip to NCSOFT in its current state?	
----
			I'll add one more Gaffney quote as well - remember, he's a long-time industry veteran with access to more data at more companies than any of us ever will have....“Games that look very successful in free-to-play may or may not be making profit, games that look unsuccessful in subscription may actually be more profitable.” 	
----
			Regarding Wildstar's numbers, I also saw someone say that it is making less money now than City of Heroes was when that was shut down. However, I have not compared the 2 game's numbers; maybe someone else can confirm or deny.	
----
			Wildstar is not profitable, while it's noble that you rather go down with the game while staying true to some oddly formed principles and ideas around F2P and B2P, i rather have to game grow and do better even in a slightly altered way.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Regarding Wildstar's numbers, I also saw someone say that it is making less money now than City of Heroes was when that was shut down. However, I have not compared the 2 game's numbers; maybe someone else can confirm or deny.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I'll add one more Gaffney quote as well - remember, he's a long-time industry veteran with access to more data at more companies than any of us ever will have....
 
“Games that look very successful in free-to-play may or may not be making profit, games that look unsuccessful in subscription may actually be more profitable.”
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Regarding Wildstar's numbers, I also saw someone say that it is making less money now than City of Heroes was when that was shut down. However, I have not compared the 2 game's numbers; maybe someone else can confirm or deny.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Key words highlighted. He phrased it in a way that is impossible to be wrong, because he only said "may". But yes, his extremely vague and obvious statement is correct. Some F2P games are profitable, and some aren't. Some subscription games are profitable, and some aren't. I don't think anyone is denying that. However Wildstar is obviously not doing well as a subscription game.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I can look this up and provide actual comparison later. I made this claim and i actually took it from someone else who did the leg work to point this out.
Fanboys like Lethality are equally terrible this games health as the trolls are, the notion that this status quo can be maintained is simply silly. 
 
Either the game adapts or dies, there's no other way. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
We can't argue it both ways.
 
I've seen "IT NEEDS STEAM BECAUSE TRILLIONS OF PLAYERS USE IT AND WILL PLAY WILDSTAR!!!!!" and "EVERYONE THAT WOULD PLAY WILDSTAR ALREADY KNOWS ABOUT IT!!@!!@!@!!!!" in this very same thread. So which would it be?
 
The fact is, they never even announced 1 million *sales* let alone subs. That means that there are literally millions of people left who a) haven't tried it and B) are willing to pay a subscription game.
 
F2P or B2P are just throwaway games and garner no investment or dedication from players. They can walk away whenever, and where does that leave their team and social structure? It doesn't even exist in those games because no one cares about them.
 
Here's a quote from Gaffney that is very relevant:
 
"What were aiming for more then anything else is NOT the player playing WoW.
If you've been playing that game for ten years, nothing's going to pry you out.
Still for every player playing WoW, you have ten players who used to play WoW. We want those ten.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The success or lack of it has nothing to do with the subscription.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Wildstar is not profitable,
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The success or lack of it has nothing to do with the subscription. And the point being free to play is not a magic bullet or automatic saving roll.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Wildstar is not profitable, while it's noble that you rather go down with the game while staying true to some oddly formed principles and ideas around F2P and B2P, i rather have to game grow and do better even in a slightly altered way.
----
			To think WildStar is sustainable on its current trend (exponentially downward) is delusional. Business model needs to change. There's no more room for debate around it. 	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Where did you read that?
 
Specifically.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You're acting like those players who try WildStar will stick around. I think you're forgetting about all of the people that actually quit the game after such a short period.
 
As I'm one of those players I can easily say, the game is more or less the same as when it was released. The only difference I can see so far is the game is bug-free, which is great. It still has the same feel, mechanics etc that have obviously let it down. You can't deny the majority of people who bought the game at launch haven't stuck around. This will probably show in those 10 players who quit WoW who try WildStar in the future.
 
Also, those 10 players who used to play WoW, will most likely get bored of a new MMO and are burnt out on the genre :/ 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I never said F2P was magic or always successful, but I guarantee you the game will make more money after F2P. I'll be happy to have this same discussion a year from now then the most recent financials are released and we can compare which model was more financially successful.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
For me personally, I'm not going to quit right away if it goes F2P/B2P or what ever, I'll wait and see if I can tolerate it, "it" being the playerbase I fear will come in(hopefully a fear that isn't ever founded, because I do love playing this game).  If I can't tolerate it, then I'll leave.  I'm playing this game to have fun, if I'm not having fun anymore, why play?  So what if you think it's some "oddly formed principle" or not, where would we be if we didn't stick to our principles, regardless how people may look down upon us for those principles?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This is often very overplayed, while i can understand the nature of this concern i find this to rarely never happen. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
And again, we can't have it both ways.
 
I see "THE GAME IS SO IMPROVED SINCE I QUIT!!!!!" and "THERE IS NO DIFFEREINCE IN THE GAME SINCE LAUNCH !!!!111!!!" Which is it?
 
If you believe the former, then all new players will have a better chance or sticking around, so we simply need more new players to try the game and then sub.
 
If you believe the latter, then returning players definitely won't matter but new players may STILL like what they see and join the growing subscriber ranks.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
For me personally, I'm not going to quit right away if it goes F2P/B2P or what ever, I'll wait and see if I can tolerate it, "it" being the playerbase I fear will come in(hopefully a fear that isn't ever founded, because I do love playing this game).  If I can't tolerate it, then I'll leave.  I'm playing this game to have fun, if I'm not having fun anymore, why play?  So what if you think it's some "oddly formed principle" or not, where would we be if we didn't stick to our principles, regardless how people may look down upon us for those principles?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
And again, we can't have it both ways.
 
I see "THE GAME IS SO IMPROVED SINCE I QUIT!!!!!"  and "THERE IS NO DIFFEREINCE IN THE GAME SINCE LAUNCH !!!!111!!!" Which is it?
 
If you believe the former, then all new players will have a better chance or sticking around, so we simply need more new players to try the game and then sub.
 
If you believe the latter, then returning players definitely won't matter but new players may STILL like what they see and join the growing subscriber ranks.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
So it's hilarious to me that you're quoting yourself as if someone else said it.
 
Remember: "Phandaal is always right." - Phandaal
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I would say the same thing to yourself.
----
			
If this Steam thing is real and not a gigantic hoax engineered by the same person both "hacking" ;) the steamdb database and photoshopping a W2 :P  at the same time (and goal achieved since now press is relaying the info from the reddit post) then why is there no Q3-2015 peak in the financial predictions ?
 
 	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The former are other people who aren't you, whereas the latter is what you say. Seriously you are the only person I see saying that the game hasn't changed, only the players have (and you say it all over the internet, not just here).
 
So it's hilarious to me that you're quoting yourself as if someone else said it.
 
Remember: "Phandaal is always right." - Phandaal
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Personally I feel as if a cash shop relying on cosmetic and housing items would be exploitative to fashionistas and housing people. Why is it okay to nickle and dime them and not raiders? Why must all the F2P weight fall on them and not other players?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Precisely why F2P is not good for anyone. Well, except the whales. But hardly anyone likes to see power stuff for sale on a cash shop, and the people for whom housing and costumes are their endgame feel exploited by a cosmetic cash shop.
 
And yet the MMO community has never been so willing to dig its own grave. *sigh*
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
To think WildStar is sustainable on its current trend (exponentially downward) is delusional. Business model needs to change. There's no more room for debate around it. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This is often very overplayed, while i can understand the nature of this concern i find this to rarely never happen. You interactions with strangers outside of your guild environment is currently already fairly limited. You already have annoying people among you, their may be less but that's purely due to there being less players around.
 
While i won't say people won't leave over it, people leave their game for a whole series of reasons. Can't say i actually noticed "other people being terrible" to be a main reasons, we already accept that our online play is seriously impacted by others and that those others are generally terrible. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
No they posted their expenses as well. They aren't making 100% profit. I'll look and do a napkin calculation for NCSoft's contribution margin at least, although anybody could based on the numbers they posted.
 
Edit: OK, as I expected the variable costs for something like this are low, and the contribution margin is about 80% (~115b on Sales of ~144b). However, fixed costs are much higher than the variable costs (~68b). This gives us an operating margin of about 32%, from which we take all other expenses to get a net income of ~40b, and a profit margin of about 27%.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
So does this mean WildStar IS operating at a profit (of 27%)? Just want to make sure I'm understanding properly.
----
			Oh, sorry! I thought you were speaking specifically of WildStar. Thank you for the clarification, though.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
If this Steam thing is real and not a gigantic hoax engineered by the same person both "hacking" ;) the steamdb database and photoshopping a W2 :P  at the same time (and goal achieved since now press is relaying the info from the reddit post) then why is there no Q3-2015 peak in the financial predictions ?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Oh, sorry! I thought you were speaking specifically of WildStar. Thank you for the clarification, though.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Good thing this game doesn't have any delusional MMO players in it!  ;)
----
			Just as a contrast, Lineage is contributing about 35% of NCSOFT Corp's net sales.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Sorry but i'm not the one judging people based on a stereo type and calling them bumholes, saying i will never play with them ect. based on only... a stereotype.
And really what did i say to you to get that kind of respond?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Precisely why F2P is not good for anyone. Well, except the whales. But hardly anyone likes to see power stuff for sale on a cash shop, and the people for whom housing and costumes are their endgame feel exploited by a cosmetic cash shop.
 
And yet the MMO community has never been so willing to dig its own grave. *sigh*
----
			
To the people saying the cosmetic cash shop items are unfair to people who like to decorate, that is not how all F2P games work. Here is my preferred model:
 
https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/126076-wildstar-is-going-to-a-hybrid-free-to-play-model-in-august-what-are-your-thoughts/?p=1318146
 
Of course, we have no idea how WS's F2P model will work yet, so we can't judge it based on any specific example of one in a different game that we do or do not like.	
----
			Just don't get the PvP team to work on the F2P model, AMIRITE? :D	
----
			Not sure if this idea has been brought up as there are about a millions posts on this subject, but what if the core game was free (no box price) and you got 10-20 lvls for free. If you like the game after that, it's $15 a month. Still kind of a P2P situation but you could also look at it as F2P with gated content. Again, just an idea.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I would be perfectly comfortable with a f2p model that gives full content access for the equivalent of the subscription fee while F2P is either limited in content or pay their share through add revenues (or a combination of the two).
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Exactly the point I was trying to bring up. It seems ridiculous that people find it okay to place the financial burden on one subset of the population (namely those who play to collect cosmetics or do housing) and are so quick to call it "F2P done right" instead of spreading the expenses across the entire population.
 
I would be perfectly comfortable with a f2p model that gives full content access for the equivalent of the subscription fee while F2P is either limited in content or pay their share through add revenues (or a combination of the two).
 
The fascination for the illusion of F2P is something I still don't get and its a trend I am eager for the market to leave behind. Never have I seen a population so eager to be financially exploited or eager to financially exploit another subset of their community.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
And people have shown a tolerance towards cash shops with cosmetic items and a willingness to buy them (see Mystery Boxes).
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
As long as it re ally was full content access, then that would be... acceptable.
 
 
That's essentially a free trial combined with EVE's lack of a box price for entry, and I honestly think that would be a great way to handle it.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Where did you read that?
 
Specifically.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Well, the game's revenues since launch have been about $50 million USD (see earnings reports).
 
Most industry estimates of how much it costs to bring a typical AAA MMORPG to the launch state are in the range $70-90 million USD, based on a number of different articles spread over the gaming industry media. And given that the game's development cycle was long even in MMORPG terms (Carbine's only product since founding in 2005, with Carbine being part of NCSoft since 2007), "typical" is probably a conservative estimate.
 
So even if the game had no running costs over the last year--which is assuredly a wildly conservative estimate--it would still be $20-40 million in the hole if it had typical development costs--which is also probably overly conserative.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
"People" - again ignoring the folk it screws over. ._.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Well, the game's revenues since launch have been about $50 million USD (see earnings reports).
 
Most industry estimates of how much it costs to bring a typical AAA MMORPG to the launch state are in the range $70-90 million USD, based on a number of different articles spread over the gaming industry media. And given that the game's development cycle was long even in MMORPG terms (Carbine's only product since founding in 2005, with Carbine being part of NCSoft since 2007), "typical" is probably a conservative estimate.
 
So even if the game had no running costs over the last year--which is assuredly a wildly conservative estimate--it would still be $20-40 million in the hole if it had typical development costs--which is also probably overly conserative.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
In fact, I would imagine CREDD could be repurposed to convert to X cash shop currency when consumed, and there would be an item in the cash shop that costs X that grants 30-days of subscriber benefits.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
What this ends up becoming is the equivalent of putting some decor item or costume in a vendor with a vendor price of several hundred plat. In Rift, a single REX costs 1200p. That's an absurd amount of plat (at least to me), and one REX doesn't let you buy very much. So cosmetics go from being pretty accessible to requiring intensely painful levels of grind to obtain.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I didn't call/stereotype all F2P/B2P players bumholes, I just said I noticed an intolerable(to me) increase in such after a game I was playing went with a F2P model, and that's why I'm not supportive of that model for Wildstar.  I'm not going to quit over it right away, I will wait and see, but that's the issue I have with it.  If you think me a bumhole for it, at least get it right what you're judging me for.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I'm giving it as an example. Obviously CREDD Isn't going to go for 1200p on WildStar. My point is that there are ways to make things accessible to subscribers with a hybrid game with a cash shop, while the top 3 P2P MMOS have cash shops with cosmetic items that you have to spend money on.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I didn't get from what you said. It looked more to me that you where better then those f2p players and that they will poison the community.
Sorry if that wasn't your intention, then you are indeed not a bumhole ^^
----
			
So far my experience with f2p and b2p MMO's have been very good and i know that i can introduce more friends to this game once the subscription model is gone and that i might get some players to return.
Maybe it's different in the USA then in the EU, i don't know. So far my best community experience is Blade and Soul Japan but that might be mostly because of their culture.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yes, but, well, I certainly hope anyone claiming "WildStar isn't profitable" because they haven't recouped ALL of their investment in 16 months. Is that what's happening?
 
Most successful businesses plan incremental revenues for the long term. I'd wager less than 1% of business ventures break even and recoup all investment in the first 9 months. But if revenue is there and can be incrementally grown, that's really all any business can ask for. That should be their plan, not the "home-run" strategy.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I'd argue that the ratio of cash shop item to item in-game in those P2P MMOs is dramatically different from the ratio in F2P MMOs. I don't have to worry about being able to afford building the house design I want in WildStar right now; if it goes F2P, I will.
----
			I like Freemium	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
No, it's making a point that challenging people to prove that the game isn't "profitable" when its revenues have dwindled to a trickle long before it has even reclaimed its own development costsis is simply silly. It won't even break even for several years if we completely ignore any running costs that it's generating along the way. 
 
And we can't actually do that, because it IS generating running costs along the way and those cut into the amount of money that's available to dig it out of the hole that still exists for its own development. The last estimate of the studio's size had it at well over 100 employees. It has revenues of about $800k per month. That means it's got a revenue to employee ratio of $8000 per employee per month at best. That revenue has to cover not JUST direct employee expenses like salary + benefits, which right away will chew up most of that money, it also has to cover indirect costs like space (in one of the most expensive real estate markets in the world), equipment, supplies, phone, internet, etc. etc. etc.
 
And that's just at Carbine. That includes none of NCSoft's expenses for marketing and distribution.
 
And all of those expenses from the studio and the publisher come out of those revenues before what's left can even begin to start being applied to recoup the remaining unfilled development costs.
 
And that has to be paid off before the game makes one dollar in profit.
 
So no, the game isn't profitable and won't become profitable any time in the next decade if it continues on its current path.
 
 
And what you want is, I'm sorry to say, completely unrealistic. Continue to pretend that it's not as long as you'd like, that's up to you. But unless you'd like me or someone else to walk you through this again, kindly refrain from balking when people suggest that the game's not some kind of asset on NCSoft's ledgers.
----
			
Yeah I'm not really sure how you can argue with numbers. Keep in mind the 30% operating margin estimate is based on the company as a whole and being able to pay off those fixed costs, which I have shown (and can be seen in full view on the report) to be much higher than their variable costs. So when you're bringing in a trickle of sales, great you've got a high contribution margin but a high margin applied to a low number is still a low number. You've got to get ahead of those fixed costs before you can even think about paying off the initial investment, much less generating a RETURN on that investment. That just isn't going to happen with a pittance in quarterly sales.
 
Edit: yasfan nailed it.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You simply do not know if it is or isn't profitable based on the information we have. It can perfectly well (and likely is) operating profitably. That doesn't seem though the definition that people are pushing. Profitable doesn't mean debt-free.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yes, but, well, I certainly hope anyone claiming "WildStar isn't profitable" because they haven't recouped ALL of their investment in 16 months. Is that what's happening?
 
Most successful businesses plan incremental revenues for the long term. I'd wager less than 1% of business ventures break even and recoup all investment in the first 9 months. But if revenue is there and can be incrementally grown, that's really all any business can ask for. That should be their plan, not the "home-run" strategy.
 
So while investors of public companies can cry "profit, sure but not enough - NEVER ENOUGH!!" that doesn't mean the business isn't profitable. 
The downward trend in revenue is obviously not what any business wants to see, though. I just want to see them work on fixing that within the context of their current design and current business model, because there are millions of players left out there who haven't even tried the game yet!
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Im not to sure I know the full story of what happened with fran but im assuming she got repromended for doing her job.. which i find in bad taste to the owner of the subreddit forum. As a former manager you don't punish an employee for not being properly trained with the polices you coach them so they don't make the same mistake again. If removal of the doom and gloom posts was part of her job. It was in irrisponsiblity to change that policy without deligating it to those that are enforcing it. Its akin to dealing with kids that want to play hide and seek but keep changing the rules as they see fit. Not very professional in my opinion. However if it was a disclosed policy to not thwart such postings than she did so at her own risk.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Proof that Wildstar isn't profitable? How about some simple math?
 
We know from various forums posts, Tweets, etc that Carbine Studios has roughly 200 employees. The average salary of a person working at a game studio in California is 50k USD annually; which equals 10 million USD in yearly payroll with no other costs included. This means payroll for Q1 2015 at Carbine was 2.5 million USD; Wildstar generated 2.37 USD revenue during that period.
 
Wildstar isn't even covering the payroll, ergo it is not profitable.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Whoa there buddy. What do you think you're doing bringing logic into this discussion? This is supposed to be based purely on feelings and emotion. This is the internet!
----
			Can't have a discussion without it devolving into asshattery. Great job guys, you are the smarts!	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You forgot the straw man. Allow me:
 
Surely you aren't saying that every single employee of Carbine gets paid $50k? I know for a fact that different people there get different salaries, so your argument is invalid.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You simply do not know if it is or isn't profitable based on the information we have. It can perfectly well (and likely is) operating profitably. That doesn't seem though the definition that people are pushing. Profitable doesn't mean debt-free.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You simply do not know if it is or isn't profitable based on the information we have. It can perfectly well (and likely is) operating profitably. That doesn't seem though the definition that people are pushing. Profitable doesn't mean debt-free.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
prof·it·a·ble
ˈpräfədəb(ə)l/
adjective
 
		
1.			(of a business or activity) yielding profit or financial gain.			
 
Profitable means that you are making a profit--you got back more money from doing something than it cost you to do it. 
 
The game you're trying to play with that definition is to say that if the game is making $1/year in net income, it's profitable even when its $20 million in debt because 20 million years from now, they'll be making a dollar. That's simply incorrect. It will not actually be profitable until it has recovered its development costs in net income, which is much much smaller than revenue. At best, you can say that it is progressing towards profitability and estimate a date at which it will become profitable.
 
The game is assuredly not profitable now and probably won't be over the lifetime of the platform for which the game was designed unless something substantial changes.
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You're slacking guys! Where's the ad hominem?
 
 
Lazy interneters.
----
			
I really really hope it does not go f2p.  Its a matter of community and paying for what you get.  Free games to me just don't bring the quality of paid games, in my experience.  Quality being more than just game quality but community quality.  
-A lot focus on cash shops vs content due to most of the revenue is coming from cash shops.  If they can implement some way that content didn't suffer for the cash shop, I would be ok.
-Free games seem to bring trolls.  Or players that don't really care about the game and trash it or don't bring quality of player because why bother, it's free.  Look at the communities of f2p games, the top ones, there are alot of players that are bad.  Yes, there are good ones, but I think the ratio of bad to good for a p2p game vs a f2p game is significant.  At least in my experience.  If you really wanted to play this game and see it prosper, you should invest a whole $15 bucks a month, instead of a I won't play because it's not free.  
-In my experience through life, nothing is free.  And if you expect free games and quality and quantity to match something that poeple pay for, you won't see it.  I just hope Wildstar can come out on top and the community we have is good.
 
And for those that look at the numbers and dwindling playerbase, this game has almost 0 advertisements, I'm sure if they did something, it would of been better.  Curious the reason why there really wasn't any.  	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
One of my companies, in simplified terms, has an overall operating expense of about $40k per month. My revenue (based just on booked business) is about $70k each month. My business is profitable, despite having a large chunk of debt.
----
			
On the topic of where this information came from: I'm actually in the boat with the skeptics in it. There's little of substance that the "leaker" revealed; some of his claims don't add up; too many of the "reveals" feel like they're almost fanservice statements; and overall the "information" shared about the mood at the studio seems like third party recounting of info you could get from talking to someone who works at the studio for a for a few minutes.
 
I know that this has been debated to death, so I'm not trying to reopen that can of worms, but I since I'm late to the conversation here I just wanted to say that I'm 50/50 as to whether or not I buy any of it.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
And here's the straw man again. 1. With such tiny sales figures it is highly unlikely that WildStar is turning a profit at this point. And 2. If it is scraping a profit, it's a small one.
 
Nobody is arguing that profit = no debt but nice try.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Also, obviously simply making a profit is not enough. Why obviously? Because NCSoft shut down COH even though it was still making a profit. It probably has much less to do with what the game's current numbers on any given date, and a lot more to do with what trend they predict going forward.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
On the topic of where this information came from: I'm actually in the boat with the skeptics in it. There's little of substance that the "leaker" revealed; some of his claims don't add up; too many of the "reveals" feel like they're almost fanservice statements; and overall the "information" shared about the mood at the studio seems like third party recounting of info you could get from talking to someone who works at the studio for a for a few minutes.
 
I know that this has been debated to death, so I'm not trying to reopen that can of worms, but I since I'm late to the conversation here I just wanted to say that I'm 50/50 as to whether or not I buy any of it.
----
			Also, I have serious doubts whenever people start talking about businesses they own in threads like this. While some people might actually be telling the truth, most people who own businesses are living and breathing their business and spending their time managing and working, not making post after post after post on a video game messageboard.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Also, I have serious doubts whenever people start talking about businesses they own in threads like this. While some people might actually be telling the truth, most people who own businesses are living and breathing their business and spending their time managing and working, not making post after post after post on a video game messageboard.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
And here's the straw man again. 1. With such tiny sales figures it is highly unlikely that WildStar is turning a profit at this point. And 2. If it is scraping a profit, it's a small one.
 
Nobody is arguing that profit = no debt but nice try.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
But changing the business model is not a silver bullet. It can fail even harder.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Ok, I don't think anybody is saying F2P is a magic fix that saves every game. However, do you have any recent examples of games that went F2P and have not improved financially?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Ok, I don't think anybody is saying F2P is a magic fix that saves every game. However, do you have any recent examples of games that went F2P and have not improved financially?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Not to mention we have the example right in front of us of WildStar NOT pulling off the subscription model.
----
			They always improve, F2P is better than P2P for making money. It's worse for the players if anything but that doesn't stop people from calling for the change because they all think they can get away without paying at some point.	
----
			I hope that if it does go F2P, the forums are locked behind a subscription.	
----