117037-do-you-think-this-game-might-actually-die

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I don't want WildStar to go away.
Its the first game I get to play a bunnygirl avatar and I feel quite a bit at home here.
 
Honestly the way things are going, I fear that this little niche of a world will disappear just like Prius did.
 
I don't want to lose another charcter. :/
 
I don't mean to bring up negativity but I don't want WildStar to go away. I love the story of the genesis prime and the beautiful little world nexus is.
I don't want to be caught in the strife of yet another dying realm to be forcefully logged off or the last time. It was heart breaking to see in not only Prius, but Iris, and Tales Runner.	
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			Yeah, like you I don't want Wildstar to go away but, the game is following the path of SWTOR and I think this game may be like SWTOR and go F2P with all the bad elements of SWTOR.  I hope I am wrong.	
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			It depends on drop 3. It really does.	
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			I doubt it'll die. It might switch to a hybrid system like SWTOR, RIFT, TSW, TERA, LOTRO, STO and many other MMORPGs if subscriptions aren't enough to keep Carbine afloat, but I don't see it dying. I agree with Rocio that the response to Drop 3 is going to be what determines whether it can remain suscription-based or not.	
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I agree with MadBlue. I would be very surprised if the plug is pulled in the near future. Look at how long Vanguard limped along. Even City of Heroes, which NCSoft killed before its time, lasted almost a decade.
 
However, I do think that the pace of updates will slow to a trickle if Drops 3 and 4 don't perform well. What I am most worried about is ending up in what is essentially maintenance mode. 	
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			I do have my worries, but I don't think it will "die". I wouldn't be surprised (or happy, but whatevers) if the payment model changes to something hybrid or if it just has the box price or something, but I continue to hold out hope that it'll make it. A lot depends on the upcoming Drops 3 and 4, but I think WS has a great foundation, it just needs to fill in the cracks.	
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			The fact that Carbine is considering Luminai as a healthy server says it all for me, they don't listen and they don't care. I didn't want this game to fail/die, but I reckon it will since they aren't actually listening along with the employees leaving and being laid off at Carbine/NCSoft, I doubt they'll even be able to stick to the quarterly updates.	
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It depends on drop 3. It really does.
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It depends on drop 3. It really does.
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I don't want WildStar to go away.
Its the first game I get to play a bunnygirl avatar and I feel quite a bit at home here.
 
Honestly the way things are going, I fear that this little niche of a world will disappear just like Prius did.
 
I don't want to lose another charcter. :/
 
I don't mean to bring up negativity but I don't want WildStar to go away. I love the story of the genesis prime and the beautiful little world nexus is.
I don't want to be caught in the strife of yet another dying realm to be forcefully logged off or the last time. It was heart breaking to see in not only Prius, but Iris, and Tales Runner.
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			It will more than likely go F2P, it won't die, at least not yet. 	
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I'm playing on Luminai and I am very worried about the game... I love WildStar and I don't want to quit, but I see more and more people who have been very patient with it just give up because they can't take it anymore. Too many mistakes are being made, and the server merge was supposed to make things better... It didn't, not for Luminai. There's two things I currently want to do in the game: 1. Raid GA and 2. Do 2v2 arena and get my 1800 set. Raiding is proving difficult with the number of people quitting or who switched to Jabbit when the server transfers were open, and the pool of people to recruit new members from is so small... As for arenas, they're cross realm so it should be fine, but it's not... Not many people are doing them because they announced the rating reset long time ago, so people gave up. That, and the ridiculous class imbalances and OP comps. The queue pool is so small you get matched up against the same people over and over, and the chances are they're not even in your rating bracket. Going against 2,2k+ as a ~1400 means you'll get stomped, lose about 3 rating and your opponent gains the same. No one gets anywhere. And again, it's hard to find a partner to do rated with because people get so tired of the issues with this game and quit... And barely anyone does practice Arenas without being asked to, so trying to get new people in to Arena is proving difficult.
 
As for the population of Luminai, imagine two-maning world bosses for your attunement because not enough people want to do them. Imagine leveling a character and being surprised to see another player in the area, if you ever see one. Imagine going on the AH to buy some Boosts for a raid only to find there's only 10 being sold. This is not what I'd expect from a sub based MMO... I don't want this game to go F2P, that road rarely leads to anything good.. This game has so much potential, Carbine just needs to get their shit together.	
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Unfortunately, indications seem to be pointing that way.
 
I hope NCSOFT doesn't pull the chain before its time and Carbine gets the chance to make it to say March next year when things should sort themselves out and make it easier to grow and move forward.	
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			It can die. But not soon at least.And to all of you worried, if you like the game continue playing it. I'll be here till the end. It's the memories that will matter.	
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Basing any shutdown or change of funding model decision on the success of Drop 3 would be monumentally stupid.  Drop 3 is half of an infrastructure patch and simply doesn't have the content to draw back large numbers of people.  Worse, it's expected when WOW is releasing a major expansion and SW:TOR their large content update.  Better to pin the hopes on Drop 4 when people start getting bored of WOW and TOR again.
 
Management has some hard choices to make.  The #hardcore mantra has really done them a disservice.  Yes, there needs to be some challenging content but having that be so pervasive through the levelling experience turned off soooo many people.  Just changing the marketing is not enough, they need to go over the content with a fine toothed comb to figure out where the less than keypress perfect players are getting into trouble.
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Management has some hard choices to make.  The #hardcore mantra has really done them a disservice.  Yes, there needs to be some challenging content but having that be so pervasive through the levelling experience turned off soooo many people.  Just changing the marketing is not enough, they need to go over the content with a fine toothed comb to figure out where the less than keypress perfect players are getting into trouble.
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			By all indications NCSoft has spent somewhere between 60 and 80 million producing this game, and that's not the type of money that you just pull the plug on without trying to salvage it first. They will attempt a different monetization model before pulling the plug. 	
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Nobody knows the future. Predictions have an incredibly poor success rate even in the real world, where professional researchers and pundits go on about what will be and when. I hear Future Babble by Dan Gardner is a good read if you want to confront some of the problems that arise when small clusters of uninformed people make big conjectures about complex problems.
 
If you're able to, think about the amount of research and vetting that goes into a paper covering significantly smaller systems than the development of an MMO. Then look at the people around you. Then walk away. 
			
				
	Edited October 26, 2014 by BusterCasey
	
		Content	
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It can die. But not soon at least.
 
And to all of you worried, if you like the game continue playing it. I'll be here till the end. It's the memories that will matter.
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Survey says!?!  X
 
I'm thinking they made enough money from pre sales and from current subscriptions that they have more breathing room than that.
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If people are hoping that Drop 3 will be some sort of miracle cure, reality will be harsh.
 
The Defile should provide content for about a week then we'll be back to where we are now. The Defile is essentially Blighthaven (quest zone, challenges, lore and all that plus daily quests) with a new daily quest zone (Star-Comm Basin, much like Northern Wastes and Crimson Badlands). It has a whole lot of bug fixes but there's no chance that the content will last for 3 months or so. Even if you adore dailies, the rate of points acquisition should be similar to Northern Wastes i.e about 1000 reputation points a day so it will last about a month.
 
Then there's Omnicore-1 which is essentially a solo raid-like experience. I have little information about it but I doubt that will be enough for 3 months.
 
I have also read about the ProtoStar Games which is a new dungeon, both regular and veteran. Itemization changes are due for January so outside of the novelty of clearing it on veteran, there is little point. I am not even sure this is in Drop 3.In the end, the above is the actual content that is being released, as far as I know. Everything else is QoL, rebalancing or fluff (think changing your house plot's music).	
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Frozen, it goes a bit beyond that.
 
Based on what I've read we're getting a lot of changes housing— much more than your plot's music. If you don't build you won't appreciate this but plot caps going from 300 to 1000 means housing becomes an enormous timesink for those who enjoy it.
 
They're also adding new incentives to run dungeons, like the boss head plaques and the ability/AMP for gold runs.
 
I definitely agree that Drop 3 is more QOL than content, but they don't have to actually make sweeping changes to get more use out of the current content— a lot which hasn't been touched by many players.	
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If the game does not get any better in drop 3 or any prior patch after that. Then I can see this game going free to play in the near future, but that's all up to them on how to grab that  crowd again.
 
They should scrap the attunement grinding and save it later for a future raid instance and make a few raids accessible in the beginning. They should also change the rng loot system in dungeons and make veteran dungeons accessible at level 50.  Take away the medal system from dungeons and create another challenge feature for it because we already have seen what it does to pugs or elitist players.
 
I'm only saying this because I deeply I want the game to succeed since I've seen it's potential and I still love my toons.	
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Meh, I don't see this game "dying" any time soon, at least not based on the atmosphere in the game.  Mind you, I'm just talking about my "gut instinct", but this game seems to be about on the same level as games like TSW and Rift when it comes to popularity and will probably settle in to that "new IP" niche.
 
Despite the issues, Wildstar doesn't seem to have any problems that I would call unusual for a new MMO, and it is clearly a very well made game (despite the assertion of the "fail trolls" on the various websites/forums).  It has a huge amount of potential and it has a dedicated fan-base.  It would be an equally huge missed opportunity for either Carbine or NCSoft to "pull the plug", so to speak.  I know NCSoft has developed a bit of a "reputation" for killing MMOs because they shut down CoH back in the day, but keeping things in perspective, that was ONE of the MMOs that they produced, and in all likelihood there were probably some very complex and personal issues between NCSoft and the CoH developers.  I sincerely doubt CoH was shutdown because of a "popularity" problem (judging by the number of people that still talk about it years after being shutdown).
 
Going back to TSW (I've never played Rift):  Every time I log in to play TSW, I see a very healthy and overall happy player base, despite having a relatively small player-base... but I have to emphasize "relatively small".  There's still a crapload of people playing that game and, just like Wildstar, if you are social and polite, you will find yourself surrounded by like-minded players and playing the group content is easy to get into.  I'm not by any means endorsing TSW, I'm simply comparing the in-game atmosphere of the two games, TSW and Wildstar.
 
While I don't see Wildstar ever becoming the next WoW, or even FF14 for that matter, I certainly see Wildstar persisting as an MMO with a reasonable level of popularity and will definitely retain a dedicated fan-base for the foreseeable future.  Whether or not Wildstar will retain its current business model or shift to another is an entirely different debate, and despite the assertions of arm-chair conjecture, the only people who know for sure how something like that will play out are the people being paid to analyze the cost vs profit metrics, not the people who are paying to play the game (in other words, I wouldn't worry about it until an official announcement is made by either NCSoft or Carbine).
 
To sum things up, particularly after the switch to megaservers, while playing the game I personally see other players everywhere I go.  The zone chat seems rather lively, grouping up for quests does not seem to be an issue, and running dungeons with guildmates is a fun and engaging experience, and happens fairly regularly.  All in all, the game seems very active (again, from my perspective), and I certainly don't see Wildstar going anywhere any time soon.	
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That's frustrating. There's nothing wrong with this game that wasn't wrong with all of them. Bugs, server population shift... nothing new. Every game has these. This game is highly playable.
 
Megaserver success really was a huge ray of sunshine. If they can fix with Drop three all the little common buggaboos and give some QoL gifts. It's good. Very good.
 
If not... orz
 
But I am optimistic.	
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In the end, the above is the actual content that is being released, as far as I know. Everything else is QoL, rebalancing or fluff (think changing your house plot's music).
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That's frustrating. There's nothing wrong with this game that wasn't wrong with all of them. Bugs, server population shift... nothing new. Every game has these. This game is highly playable.
 
Megaserver success really was a huge ray of sunshine. If they can fix with Drop three all the little common buggaboos and give some QoL gifts. It's good. Very good.
 
If not... orz
 
But I am optimistic.
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No the memories are what hurt the most.
 
I still go back and watch my videos from prius online, I still look at screenshots.
Watching prius get shutdown and being there at the last moment...
I felt like I had lost a child, infact I still greave for the loss of my character in Prius, and one of the races in the MMO I'm working on is based on her.
I don't want to go through that again, I've grown very found of Shizuma and I don't want to go through that sense of loss again.
That was a very emotionally jarring experience, I didn't expect to feel that much pain and emotional trauma from the shutdown of a game, but then again I put so much into that character and felt so close to her, I can't really say the same with Shizuma yet but I can already feel her as a constant presensce in my thoughts and honestly if the game is going to fail, I don't want to be attached.
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That's frustrating. There's nothing wrong with this game that wasn't wrong with all of them. Bugs, server population shift... nothing new. Every game has these. This game is highly playable.
 
Megaserver success really was a huge ray of sunshine. If they can fix with Drop three all the little common buggaboos and give some QoL gifts. It's good. Very good.
 
If not... orz
 
But I am optimistic.
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The problem is within 2 weeks of the game release servers population dropped drastically even without the DDOS attack. Archeage had that problem too, but their servers for a straight two months has been high populated every night you log on to play. That means something especially for a free to play game, but you have to be a patron if you want to full access.
 
As faithful I am to this game liking it in some aspects. I was curious why did a lot of players dropped the game so soon and what was the real reason behind it. Was it the pve content grinding leveling % from questing, class designs, combat, dungeons, medal system or attunement grind?
 
There could be other reasons, but as for now these what have been mentioned the most. I didn't add bugs to the list because they tend to get fix and that's every mmorpg problem.
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RAIDS
While fun are not for everyone, 3 nights x 3 hours is a lot of time investment for the majority playing the game probably and those people are not hardcore.
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Yeah, like you I don't want Wildstar to go away but, the game is following the path of SWTOR and I think this game may be like SWTOR and go F2P with all the bad elements of SWTOR.  I hope I am wrong.
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Not really because even til this day WoW raiding is still ongoing and 3 hours is quite reasonable than 5- 6 hours even for casuals. It's all about the game designs and if people like it then they'll participate.
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I don't want WildStar to go away.
Its the first game I get to play a bunnygirl avatar and I feel quite a bit at home here.
 
Honestly the way things are going, I fear that this little niche of a world will disappear just like Prius did.
 
I don't want to lose another charcter. :/
 
I don't mean to bring up negativity but I don't want WildStar to go away. I love the story of the genesis prime and the beautiful little world nexus is.
I don't want to be caught in the strife of yet another dying realm to be forcefully logged off or the last time. It was heart breaking to see in not only Prius, but Iris, and Tales Runner.
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No. And no its not going fail2play. Heres my response from another thread.
 
 
Mamatereza, on 24 Oct 2014 - 01:00 AM, said:
 
Now that we've heard FICTION, how about FACTS.
 
1. "Imho if they had close to 100k paying subs they would be extremely happy." -WRONG
 
Its been clearly stated by Donatelli they not only have 100k subs but MORE in a blatent interview on MASSIVELY
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2. "They would remain as it is as a team and waited for Megaservers, Drop 3 and other improvements to bring ppl back. Sadly there is no such thing in the horizon."- WRONG
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There is big drops with tons of improvements coming. Its been said by Moore and Donatelli. It's called NOVEMBER (it comes after the month of October)
 
3."I m not saying WS could not be a great game in the long term and bring ppl back, but in its current state and with the current sub numbers it cant go far."-WRONG
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Clearly stated they have HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS (as in more then one 100k just to help you along here) and they are very happy with that and can't wait to get more.
 
4.", WS needs to turn to B2P ASAP!"-WRONG
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It has been stated by Donatelli in the same massively interview they have no plans whatsoever to go B2P or fail2play
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I don't think many people found the leveling experience to be such a turn off--generally people in the midst of it have expressed a lot of confusion about why the game isn't doing much better than it is.
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I have this same issue when I get into teamspeak with the people who have moved on, actually they moved back to another game that I have not moved back to yet (I will for its expansion in December but will not stay around that long).
 
 
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 You're saying that from the perspective of somebody that stuck around. You're in the minority as evidenced by the population issue. I've learned to make a concious effort to not mention Wildstar on my guild's voice chat 'cause that's just going to start a 10-20 minute long WS bash session. 
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Yeah, like you I don't want Wildstar to go away but, the game is following the path of SWTOR and I think this game may be like SWTOR and go F2P with all the bad elements of SWTOR.  I hope I am wrong.
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You are wrong. SWTOR is fine and this is second game I keep paying for. First one is Wildstar. Unfortunately, I can't play Wildstar atm, I have to upgrade my toaster first. But still, my sub is active because I don't wanna let Wildstar die.
 
People keep complaining about going f2p as if it was something bad. Think about f2p as advanced model of trial. For getting full access you still wanna pay a sub, but you can decide if you want to by playing awesome game for couple month.
 
Remember, most money gaining games atm are f2p -- World of tanks and LoL.
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You're saying that from the perspective of somebody that stuck around. You're in the minority as evidenced by the population issue. I've learned to make a concious effort to not mention Wildstar on my guild's voice chat 'cause that's just going to start a 10-20 minute long WS bash session. One of our core healers barely made it into the 20's when she gave up because levelling was just that unfun and she had build a whole new computer just to play the game.
 
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Actually, I'm not using my own experience at all for that.
 
I'm saying that based on the huge number of positive reviews on Metacritic that this game got from both player and critics in the time window following launch. This game was nearly universally lauded for how much fun it was and how much there was to do while leveling up. Of course, those initial reviews didn't say much about the endgame, because most of the people writing them hadn't reached it yet. If someone built a whole computer to play this game and quit out before she even hit level 30 because it was SO unenjoyable, that opinion is not at all representative of what most people who took the time to review the game said during the leveling climb.
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So that whole statement was based on Metacritic?  People still take that place seriously?
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The problem is within 2 weeks of the game release servers population dropped drastically even without the DDOS attack. Archeage had that problem too, but their servers for a straight two months has been high populated every night you log on to play. That means something especially for a free to play game, but you have to be a patron if you want to full access.
 
As faithful I am to this game liking it in some aspects. I was curious why did a lot of players dropped the game so soon and what was the real reason behind it. Was it the pve content grinding leveling % from questing, class designs, combat, dungeons, medal system or attunement grind?
 
There could be other reasons, but as for now these what have been mentioned the most. I didn't add bugs to the list because they tend to get fix and that's every mmorpg problem.
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Oh come on, 2 weeks? I was late to the party by a month and there were still people in low level zones and I was always meeting players while leveling (which took me another month). The population problems started 2 months not 2 weeks after the game's release. So while the population might have started dropping about 2 weeks in I wouldn't say it was drastic at that time.
 
When it comes to the game dying I think it might have already died for me. It appears that there is no Polish guild on Jabbit on the Exile side or at least no active ones as I am in a Polish guid with no one to play with. I will come back after drop 3 to see if anything changes but I don't really want to play with international crowd.
 
Then again, I don't think the game will die completely. It's very popular nowadays to convert to f2p when things get really bad.
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Do I think Wildstar will die? No. Certainly not in the short-medium term, and I can't see as far as the long term, so just don't know about that.
 
You don't seem to want the game to die either, so really, you'd be better off not posting threads with titles like this!	
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Oh come on, 2 weeks? I was late to the party by a month and there were still people in low level zones and I was always meeting players while leveling (which took me another month). The population problems started 2 months not 2 weeks after the game's release. So while the population might have started dropping about 2 weeks in I wouldn't say it was drastic at that time.
 
When it comes to the game dying I think it might have already died for me. It appears that there is no Polish guild on Jabbit on the Exile side or at least no active ones as I am in a Polish guid with no one to play with. I will come back after drop 3 to see if anything changes but I don't really want to play with international crowd.
 
Then again, I don't think the game will die completely. It's very popular nowadays to convert to f2p when things get really bad. And if the game will get in a state where it needs saving f2p will probably do just that because it's an awesome game with great mechanics.
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People need to stop using LoL as an example...that game has an absolute crap conversion rate and the only reason they survive is the insanely large number of people who are addicted to that gameplay style.  If a game like wildstar were to adopt the LoL business model, it would tank almost instantly.
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WoW after all is f2p too. You can level up to level 20 and there is really strong community who plays wow for free, kicking paid customers butts. ;)
 
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Ummm WOW is not free to play,
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Yes it is. It's F2P to 20
 
 
 
For which, full access to the first 20 levels is. Free access to 1/5th of the game is a significant amount of content. 
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Recruit a friend would be awesome, I'm not sharing my free trial passes with anyone until I will get guarantee that if my friend will sub, I will get some bonus, like free awesome mount or free CREDD.
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I'm playing on Luminai and I am very worried about the game... I love WildStar and I don't want to quit, but I see more and more people who have been very patient with it just give up because they can't take it anymore. Too many mistakes are being made, and the server merge was supposed to make things better... It didn't, not for Luminai. There's two things I currently want to do in the game: 1. Raid GA and 2. Do 2v2 arena and get my 1800 set. Raiding is proving difficult with the number of people quitting or who switched to Jabbit when the server transfers were open, and the pool of people to recruit new members from is so small... As for arenas, they're cross realm so it should be fine, but it's not... Not many people are doing them because they announced the rating reset long time ago, so people gave up. That, and the ridiculous class imbalances and OP comps. The queue pool is so small you get matched up against the same people over and over, and the chances are they're not even in your rating bracket. Going against 2,2k+ as a ~1400 means you'll get stomped, lose about 3 rating and your opponent gains the same. No one gets anywhere. And again, it's hard to find a partner to do rated with because people get so tired of the issues with this game and quit... And barely anyone does practice Arenas without being asked to, so trying to get new people in to Arena is proving difficult.
 
As for the population of Luminai, imagine two-maning world bosses for your attunement because not enough people want to do them. Imagine leveling a character and being surprised to see another player in the area, if you ever see one. Imagine going on the AH to buy some Boosts for a raid only to find there's only 10 being sold. This is not what I'd expect from a sub based MMO... I don't want this game to go F2P, that road rarely leads to anything good.. This game has so much potential, Carbine just needs to get their shit together.
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Lets see WOW has how many battlegrounds more than 11, how many can you do at 20, I believe 2. (So yes on this one you are close)
Dungeons I believe 2-4 dungeons sub 20, how many are in game, it is a little bit more than Wildstar. (Not close to 20% of them)
Raids no raids for level 20, I believe there is a few raids in WOW. (0%)
Can they max their professions at lvl 20 (not really, not sure how this is content) (0%)
Can they do the top pet battles (no) (??%)
 
 
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			1-20 is not a significant amount. It's just a teaser. I rather it be free from 1-60 since they've so many expansions now and if players want more they have to buy it. 1-20 is really nothing to get hooked on except just to hang out or talk to friends who play the game.	
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1-20 is not a significant amount. It's just a teaser. I rather it be free from 1-60 since they've so many expansions now and if players want more they have to buy it. 1-20 is really nothing to get hooked on except just to hang out or talk to friends who play the game.
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    Can't play expansion-restricted content (new continents, etc).    Can't exceed level 20, 10 gold, and 100 trade skill ranks.    Can't participate in Pet Battles.    Can't chat in channels other than say and party.    Can't whisper another character unless they add you to their friends list    Can't create or join guilds, invite players into a party, or create calendar invitations.    Can't disable experience gains.    Can't trade, mail, or use the Auction House.    Can't use voice chat or Real ID.    Can't use value added services (character transfers, faction changes, etc).
 
It's an endless trial. It can only be considered free to play if your definition of free to play is a literal one. No free to play title restricts that much.
 
Granted, I myself laugh at people who scream p2w in most f2p games because to me if you can play it for free it is free to play but in those games where I use that definition I do have access to most or all of the content.	
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An identical argument can be made about the content F2Players are limited to in SWTOR with out paying a sub or for microtransaction unlocks.
 
Sorry, but levels 1-20 are a significant amount of game content, even including all your arguments. In many sources, WoW is even listed as P2Play with F2P to 20, rather than just P2Play.
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In SWTOR they can see everything even Makeb, they have unlimited PVP access, they need to buy the raid passes which are purchaseable, none of this is available in WOW. You really can't see much and if you played WOW you would have an idea of how much content is not available at 1-20.
 
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Free players cannot see Makeb; you have to pay for access or sub to see Makeb. There is no unlimited PvP access; you get 3 a week unless you pay for more. You can't access operations with out paying as well. 
Once you pay for anything in SWTOR you cease being a free player and become preferred access. Free players do not have the access you suggest.
 
Nothing is stopping you from calling the free2play option in SWTOR a trial by the same logic. But that doesn't negate the fact in either SWTOR or WoW's situation that rather than a limited time opportunity to try a game, you have indefinite access to limited game content. 
 
You are correct WoW's free to play limits mean you don't see all the game; but you DO see the game, for free, indefinitely Unless you wan't to tell me playing a game fore free (even with limits) is not free to play, 
 
EDIT: Trial, and F2P are not mutually exclusive terms
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{| class="blockquote"
Free players cannot see Makeb; you have to pay for access or sub to see Makeb. There is no unlimited PvP access; you get 3 a week unless you pay for more. You can't access operations with out paying as well. 
Once you pay for anything in SWTOR you cease being a free player and become preferred access. Free players do not have the access you suggest.
 
Nothing is stopping you from calling the free2play option in SWTOR a trial by the same logic. But that doesn't negate the fact in either SWTOR or WoW's situation that rather than a limited time opportunity to try a game, you have indefinite access to limited game content. 
 
You are correct WoW's free to play limits mean you don't see all the game; but you DO see the game, for free, indefinitely Unless you wan't to tell me playing a game fore free (even with limits) is not free to play, 
 
EDIT: Trial, and F2P are not mutually exclusive terms
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
1-20 is NOT a significant portion.  
----
			
The game is already dead. Not devoid of players, but dead.
 
Were all here just posting in denial. The game is going nowhere, so enjoy it how it is, or log off. There is no savior patch. People aren't playing it because of x or x being different from what they like, they're not playing it because the core systems in pve, PvP, and itemization are completely broken.
 
But sure keep posting here it'll prob make you feel better	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Semantics. 1-20 is more than significant.  
 
For reference, getting a scratch that bleeds is considered a significant injury. Playing 1/5th of the main story line and the first 20 levels is absolutely significant. 
 
EDIT: significant doesn't mean 'most' or 'a lot'. It means enough to be noticed / enough to have some effect. Both of which describe playing levels 1- 20 in WoW for free.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The game is already dead. Not devoid of players, but dead.
 
Were all here just posting in denial. The game is going nowhere, so enjoy it how it is, or log off. There is no savior patch. People aren't playing it because of x or x being different from what they like, they're not playing it because the core systems in pve, PvP, and itemization are completely broken.
 
But sure keep posting here it'll prob make you feel better
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Funny you should mention semantics rhetoric as that has been the entire basis of your argument from the start.
----
			
It won't outright die, but it can very well be fated for F2P, which in a sense, at least to me, is the death of MMO's. 
I can't tell how well the game does, simply because of C.R.E.D.D. Personally I must admit the credd system is pretty damn smart especially with a small playerbase since you can stack it up which then makes a market for credd and some people keep buying credd to sell, which in return keeps game going. If it didnt have credd, wildstar would be way different than it is now I'd reckon. 	
----
			wildstar have some good going for it. good conception. but the execution is crap. thats what you get when you hire cheap employee. its leaking from everywhere.	
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{| class="blockquote"
wildstar have some good going for it. good conception. but the execution is crap. thats what you get when you hire cheap employee. its leaking from everywhere.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yes it is. It's F2P to 20
 
 
 
For which, full access to the first 20 levels is. Free access to 1/5th of the game is a significant amount of content.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yes my argument is based on rhetoric. Words have meanings, being able to play a game from level 1-20 fits the definition of free to play. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Not even close to 1/5th of the game
(I have a level 90 blood elf fire mage)
You're completely wrong, level 1~20 can be done in a matter of hours and you get to see next to nothing of the game, it's just a demo.
 
1~20 is maybe a 1/50th of the story line
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Actually, rhetoric really has more to do with persuasion than meaning. In fact, many definitions of rhetoric explicitly note that the effort to influence opinion may not be honest or reasonable. :
Semantics, on the other hand, has much more to do with the explicit meaning of words and how it depends on the particular context in which they're used.
 
So I think the quote that you altered was correct in its original form. Your argument does hinge on semantics. It may also depend on rhetoric, but that's a different matter altogether.
----
			
I think Wildstar will continue.  I have been part of many MMOs that were shuttered - Earth and Beyond, Star Wars: Galaxies, and Vanguard to name a few.  In each of those (except for possibly Earth and Beyond), a point came where you just knew that the game was done.  The reason was different in each game, but the feeling was the same.  You could tell, and everyone knew it.
 
I haven't had that feeling in Wildstar yet.
 
Drop 3 may not be a panacea, but it will help by addressing some things that everyone has been waiting a long time to get.  The real trick will be to keep the drops coming after that - if we have to wait 3 months, then we have to wait, but what we get every 3 months will need to be substantial.
 
Players will always complete available content faster than developers can add more - that is quite simply the nature of directed content in MMOs and has been for over 15 years now.  The trick to making an MMO thrive long term is to give players reasons to stick around and log in after they finish all that content - whether that's raiding, PvP, or community features such as housing, there needs to be something that keeps us around.
 
That also means though that players who want a reason to stick around must be willing to take a risk on other players - because if someone really doesn't want to be social with anyone but their close RL friends, then they will rapidly find themselves with no real reason to log on.  It's a choice that all of us have to make.  I'm an introvert by nature, but you wouldn't realize it from all the community stuff I do - the reason I step outside my comfort zone and organize server events and guild dungeon runs and everything else is very simple:  I want to have reasons to keep logging in, even when it's been 2 months since the last drop and I'm sitting and waiting for the next one.
 
So the question of what happens to Wildstar is really two questions:
 
1) Will Carbine be able to continue to add sufficient content and address player concerns with the game at a reasonable pace?  On this, I think we will all just have to wait and see.
 
2) Will enough players be willing to take a chance on others to give them reasons to keep logging in?  That is something we will all have to answer for ourselves.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Technically speaking the proper term would be Diction, but valiant effort Yas. We are communicating ideas in which meaning and phrasing are important. Implicit in discourse is persuasion (in this case with facts and logic) making rhetoric a more proper adjective over semantics. Neither would be wrong, one is more suited to this discourse (as it is a discourse, not an exercise in vocabulary).
 
Now would anyone else like to tell me playing a game for free doesn't count as free to play ?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
None of which matters. It's significant game content, for free, indefinitely. That is the definition of F2P (see my links above). Playing actual game content is the opposite of a Demonstration.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
If you were a PLAYA and not a PLAYER you would understand.
 
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Saying the "F2P" part of world of warcraft is significant is like saying a 2minute trailer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSzeFFsKEt4 for a 3 hour movie http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0903624/ is significant.
 
----
			
No their analogy is probably more accurate the first 20 levels are not even remotely 20% of the content and here you are comparing what may be 2% of the total content (I agree with the 1/50th as opposed to 1/5th) versus 22% of the movie content. 2% * 90 = 1 minute 48 seconds... which is a normal extended or 2nd/3rd trailer for a movie.
 
I can watch the trailers for age of ultron as much as I want on the youtube.
 
{| class="blockquote"
 
Terrible analogy, especially when all the best scenes in a movie are in the trailer... A more accurate description would be the first 20 minutes of a 90 minute movie with sequels and spin-offs is available free. 
 
 
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			EDIT: Sorry mods :,(	
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{| class="blockquote"
No their analogy is probably more accurate the first 20 levels are not even remotely 20% of the content and here you are comparing what may be 2% of the total content (I agree with the 1/50th as opposed to 1/5th) versus 22% of the movie content. 2% * 90 = 1 minute 48 seconds... which is a normal extended or 2nd/3rd trailer for a movie.
 
I can watch the trailers for age of ultron as much as I want on the youtube.
----
			
Do I think Wildstar will Die? Maybe...
 
I can't predict the future, but same time I don't really have much time or interest in worrying about it. I've been through a few shut downs, conversion to f2p, etc...
 
In the time I've been through those I've learned just to continue showing my support as best I could/wanted to. I'll continue playing Wildstar for as long as it interests me, I've brought people back, I've gotten some to enjoy the game again, and I've peaked the interest of those outside as well. There isn't much else I can do, but provide a fun place in the community for people. However if Wildstar did "die"(by whatever definition you give a death of a game) I'd simply move on if said "death" hampered my enjoyment, and like Warhammer and CoH remember the fun times I had.
 
Things come and go...	
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{| class="blockquote"
 
Terrible analogy, especially when all the best scenes in a movie are in the trailer... A more accurate description would be the first 20 minutes of a 90 minute movie with sequels and spin-offs is available free. 
 
But to get to the point; even using your 2 minute trailer of a 3 hour movie; that is still significant content. While I disagree fundamentally with the gross mis-scaling; equating perpetual free play access to levels 1-20 of a 90 level game + other content at end game, a 2 minute trailer often enough reveals significant information about the full movie. 
 
Significant =/= a lot. Significant = enough to be noticed / have an effect. For the perfect example of a trailer doing this check out the new Avengers Trailer; 26 million views in less than a day. do you think that was noticeable? IT sure was, and the information provided in it was also significant; we saw Tony Starks Anti-Hulk Suit; we saw Ultron himself in various forms, we see bits of the narrative giving us an indication of the direction of the story... etc etc etc.
 
 
 
Better tell all the people who edit wiki they are full of BS then, because they list WoW as Pay to Play with the option of Free to Play till 20
 
----
			No. Wildstar isn't gonna die.	
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			Everything will die some day, just hope it won't be soon c:	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
No their analogy is probably more accurate the first 20 levels are not even remotely 20% of the content and here you are comparing what may be 2% of the total content (I agree with the 1/50th as opposed to 1/5th) versus 22% of the movie content. 2% * 90 = 1 minute 48 seconds... which is a normal extended or 2nd/3rd trailer for a movie.
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
People need to stop using LoL as an example...that game has an absolute crap conversion rate and the only reason they survive is the insanely large number of people who are addicted to that gameplay style.  If a game like wildstar were to adopt the LoL business model, it would tank almost instantly.
----
			
Probably.
Natural selection, and survival of the fittest.
 
THE TRUTH: It doesn't matter if you few currently like the game, it does matter if the majority like and buy the game.
 
The all mighty dollar determines if this game lives, and right now they cut 60 jobs to save cash. Those 60 jobs are currently dumped on current employees, so now they have the same paycheck but more work.
White knights of the forum can get mad all they want at me, but it won't save their game. If they really wanted to save their game they better find some friends to convince to play this game and pay that subscription (subscription for no content, you got to be an incredible salesman).	
----
			It's unfortunate, but I don't think there's much hope.  Carbine isn't listening to the vast majority of players; they only listen to the very few elitist players.  Because of that they are not keeping players.  But that's cool, because they really don't seem to care (at least from the answers from support I got on a few issue).  Review articles show that players came on board at the start, but are dropping off in droves.  I didn't believe it until I read the article a few days ago about Carbine and NCSOFT are now laying-off large numbers of people.  I don't think that is a good sign.  Then they move us all to one of two mega-servers, now they are taking another big long outage (in the middle of the day again) to reduce the number of servers again.  Once more that's not a good sign.  Shame too, I bought WS because of the hype that said Carbine said it was going to listen to all players for game content and not just the few elitist players like the other MMOs.  But, it's the same.  I'll hang around a bit longer though, but I'm looking for another MMO already.	
----
			
In my opinion, Wild Star is dying.
 
I believe we still have a year left before it happens.   Once the subscribers and CREDD buyers continue to drop off, and the game is reduced to 4-5 raiding guilds, and no "casual" players...
 
We aren't far off.   Just ride the wave while you can and get ready for the next one.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
WoW after all is f2p too. You can level up to level 20 and there is really strong community who plays wow for free, kicking paid customers butts. ;)
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I'd disagree with this being called f2p. You could really only say "WoW has a tiny portion of content you can access for free". Also, once you've subbed, I think you lose access to the free 1-20 stuff. So you won't be able to play for free any more.
 
What WoW has in its 1-20 access is more accurately described as a demo.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
From the Blizzard website:  "World of Warcraft... is Free to Play up to Level 20". Take it up with Blizzard.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
UNTIL you buy it, then it is NO LONGER FREE TO PLAY.
----
			I don't see it dieing.  This game has the best combat system out there for mmo's.  Adding more content, fixing bugs, class changes, and fixing the parts of the game that are turning people away should keep them afloat.  If they build around their combat system and make content that utilizes it then I don't see why they couldn't have a complete turn around.  Good gameplay alone will keep games afloat no matter what they look like, how old they are, or even how simple they are.	
----
			
I thought it was simple.
 
Wildstar has 0 free to play.
 
Wow has 1.
 
Tera has 9.?    trying to set it out of 10 because people think first 20 levels of wow is nothing...
 
Archage has a 7 or so.
 
I dono any that has a 10 giving everything without a box price or subscription. Mabye dota but that isnt a mmo.
 
I guess what can be taken out of this is that 1 is >>>>> infinite>>>> 0.
 
So wow which u can download and play after 20 mins while it continues downloading the rest has free to play atleast. And seriously the undead story for the first 20 levels is amazing.
 
So its something that carbine should look into. Or free weekends.	
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{| class="blockquote"
Which is the same with SWTOR, LotR, and most other F2P and hybrid F2P games. There are extremely few pure 'F2P' games. Almost all make you pay with microtransactions and/or locking content behind subs.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I thought it was simple.
 
Wildstar has 0 free to play.
 
Wow has 1.
 
Tera has 9.?    trying to set it out of 10 because people think first 20 levels of wow is nothing...
 
Archage has a 7 or so.
 
I dono any that has a 10 giving everything without a box price or subscription. Mabye dota but that isnt a mmo.
 
I guess what can be taken out of this is that 1 is >>>>> infinite>>>> 0.
 
So wow which u can download and play after 20 mins while it continues downloading the rest has free to play atleast. And seriously the undead story for the first 20 levels is amazing.
 
So its something that carbine should look into. Or free weekends.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
No, it isn't. Rakaposhi makes a really good point. I should have thought of this earlier. What he means by "no longer free" is that after you buy WoW you lose access to the 1-20 level range. You have to stay subbed to continue playing. You can't even login to create a new character and play in the 1-20 range.
 
In SWTOR on the other hand you may sub to get access to everything but when your sub ends you still have access to the game.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I agree; although I wouldn't say Wildstar is an absolute 0 F2P (because of CREDD). I think if W* replaced the 7 day guest passes with a persistent F2P until level X (maybe 20) schema we could get some new blood into the game. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
From the Blizzard website:  "World of Warcraft... is Free to Play up to Level 20". Take it up with Blizzard.
----
			
you might get a few players, but really, game is just not for everybody and also not managed by pros.. just look at the customer service and the speed of updates.
then take into consideration the dated art style, and the unforgiving endgame (though i dont mind that one, lot of players quit over it).
basically, its a recipe for an unpopular game. at this point it is about: hoping the small market it aims at can be significant enough to hold the game.
don't fool yourself, wildstar will never go back up by much. it is a matter of "keeping it where it is" at the moment.	
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{| class="blockquote"
Survey says!?!  X
 
I'm thinking they made enough money from pre sales and from current subscriptions that they have more breathing room than that.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It's "free to play up to level 20", not "free-to-play up to level 20". 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 NCSoft just laid off 60 Carbine employees. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Can you remind me of an MMO studio that didn't layoff devs after their game was released? They need extra hands to get the games made and the systems set; once that's done, extra devs are mostly dead weight. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
guild wars 2 (but that game was frickin amazing... and arenanet is well managed. they will do another game eventually. carbine? nope.)
----
			
This article is misleading and it pisses me off.
 
The layoffs have nothing to do with Arenanet and Guild Wars 2.. yet you've put GW2 in the title. The layoffs are tied to the closure of City of Heroes and the (un)success of TERA. The GW2 team has been increased in size.
 
Should be ashamed of yourselves. I don't care that you put your little disclaimer at the end.. you've blatently tried to encourage more hits by making people think GW2 is in trouble.
 
by a poster in the article... check pls
 
Another poster
 
Totally misleading.  Almost own right lying for the attention of the readers...
That title is totally misleading and even developer's of Guild Wars 2 have commented on this stating: "While we are indeed a wholly-owned subsidiary of Korea-based NCsoft Corporation (read NCsoft HQ), we are also our own entity. ArenaNet has not been affected by the NCwest realignment. And indeed, we are hiring:http://www.arena.net/jobs/"
 
Source: https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/gw2/Laying-off-workers/first#content
 
GW2 is a good game and is getting better...Wierdly enough the only reason i don't go back to gw 2 without some thought is that it updates so often i almost always can not play it when i feel like it...	
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{| class="blockquote"
I don't want WildStar to go away.
Its the first game I get to play a bunnygirl avatar and I feel quite a bit at home here.
 
Honestly the way things are going, I fear that this little niche of a world will disappear just like Prius did.
 
I don't want to lose another charcter. :/
 
I don't mean to bring up negativity but I don't want WildStar to go away. I love the story of the genesis prime and the beautiful little world nexus is.
I don't want to be caught in the strife of yet another dying realm to be forcefully logged off or the last time. It was heart breaking to see in not only Prius, but Iris, and Tales Runner.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
What do the Hyphens add to the terms 'free' 'to' and 'play'?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/layoffs-at-guild-wars-2-publisher/1100-6401089/
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Can you remind me of an MMO studio that didn't layoff devs after their game was released? They need extra hands to get the games made and the systems set; once that's done, extra devs are mostly dead weight. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
misleading,
there was no layoffs at Arenanet.
gw2 is amazing.
----
			
I'm going to agree with the majority posting.
 
I believe NCSoft/Carbine will change the business model before pulling the plug completely and we haven't seen that yet.
 
I know many don't want a F2P or hybrid model but I can't see the game surviving unless things take a big turn after the next drop. If it doesn't they may not have any other choice but to change the business model.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if at least someone wasn't working on a F2P/Hybrid change to the game behind the scenes without our knowledge. They won't inform us of such a change until time requires them to do so.
 
Unfortunately only time will tell. I hope it doesn't though.	
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Arenanet is indeed a wholly owned subsidiary of NCSoft; and it is a part of NC West.
 
 
{| class="blockquote"
NCsoft's existing subsidiaries NC Interactive, NC Europe, NC Austin, and ArenaNet will be led as a unified organization under NC West with a dedicated focus towards becoming the world's premier western publisher of MMOs.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Simply because ArenaNet is not owned by Ncsoft, like the other companies involved. Also (un)success of Tera? Only the most played MMO after WoW.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I think they meant Aion.
 
But anyways what the game needs is to be re marketed after some major changes since people may have either forgotten or moved on. Its weird but FPS and MOBAs now fill in my need for action. But at the same time I like moving and fighting.
 
It's kinda of wierd how a game that plays and looks like jak and daxter, ratchet and clanks and even crash bandicoot can't seem to make the gameplay and leveling different enough from other mmos.
 
But meh, I can't play other mmos seriously enough now that i am ruined by the combat system of wildstar... but leveling and end game daily's are so boring with dungeons being so painful to work through after coming home after a day at work that i would rather log in for 30 mins check some ques and just go play dota 2, hearthstone or do something else instead.
 
Yes, I along with other gamers are spoilt buuuut blizzard caught onto that ages ago... they realized the young kids have their games and their first customers are getting old and can,t put a ton of time grinding to just get to raids...
 
That's what wildstar needs... Tiers for dungeons and Raids... shiphands at higher difficulties which can be done by 2 people instead of 5 without it being a cake walk. smaller raid requirements and all the interesting quests that were played through out the game to be in the end game daily's. Seriously why are there a handful of quests that are actually fun and interesting only at some points of the game never to be reused again. Especially when i kill 10+ of almost every other creature on the world...
 
oh wells they will learn (hopefully) rant over...
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{| class="blockquote"
misleading,
there was no layoffs at Arenanet.
gw2 is amazing.
----
			
Love the game, but bordering on giving up myself.
 
60+ Friends come and gone.
 
Had some pretty major bugs since beta, no replys or help from staff.
Every time there's a patch, I have to uninstall and reinstall the game, or it won't save ANY settings.
My crafting broke so there's not base recipes in my book. Swapping get's me no dailys etc.
 
460ms lag is about best from Australia, with desync spikes long enough for people to get flag, cap, and return to near me, without them moving on my screen. Get times, where the lag sits on 11,000ms and I don't get DC.
 
PvP was heaps fun while leveling, even with 50% of the team being afk leveling bots. No rep meant I had to go back and do all PvE stuff at gray level. 50 PvP is beyond non-fun.
 
Itemization, insanity! Not worth trying to get gear except wardrobe. Even having raid gear in your bank because it's worse than blue's - get's you in higher rated PvP que's/even tho I seem to be getting 1800+ prebuilts vs -1500 RNG join constantly.
Even if the raid gear was worth chasing, ~1200 SAME pieces of gear to get sockets/RNG right for my BiS per set. Even the drop 3 'fix' is still ~600 same pieces of gear, and extra item farming.
 
Don't play for a week, stable computer. Load the client, will be blue screen of death within 12hr. 
 
Memory leaks - 20 mins of using Healing Probes, drops 30-50 fps from everyone in group.
 
Non-Smart Heals. Medic can't really heal more than 5 people?!! Even in a 5man dungeon, I've lost a tank, to trash mobs, while pulling 12,000 overheals on other players and there bots. The Drop 4 'smart heals' ideas, still skip our basic heals, even tho there might be a 'raid heal spec' with totally different play.
 
Oh, and I gave up on Dungy/Adv que's when they got over 1hr as a Healer.	
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{| class="blockquote"
 I don't know why we are splitting hairs over the type of staff or the fact that A.Net was hiring for prior vacant positions which still needed to be filled while NC West (of which it was a member) was being restructured. 
----
			I don't know if it's going to die or not..but having taken a break waiting for Megaservers, I find it very hard to start back up or even thinking I'm going to stay. I just cancelled my sub about 5 minutes ago. I'm just burnt out on the traditional MMOs..I'm finding the drop-in nature of Destiny more respectful of the time I do have to play. Dragon Age's co-op also looks like a good fit.  The lore is awesome and I love everything else except playing right now.  Good bye and nah, you can't have my stuff because I never collected anything special. 	
----
			i have to say my aggravation level is definitely reaching critical mass, another 12 hr downtime to consolidate hardware is just adding to that, the loss of some items, the lack of pvp, which is all i do and i'm not sure d3 is going to ease that tension.	
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{| class="blockquote"
Dungeons are actually easy. Perhaps what they should make sure of first is that people entering them meet a certain gear requirement? Because if your DPS only pull around 2000 DPS, or you have people pulling 3000-4000 DPS with one person only managing 800, you're going to be so close to hitting all the hard enrages that it will be hard and not fun. 
 
----
			
Unfortunately I feel like the OP,
 
I feel very uncomfortable paying/playing this game not wanting to get attached to a character with all this attunemeant and time spent on it- I did it in warhammer online and I know how these things end up - wildstar is heading down that path.
 
Pvp is already in a dead state
Many carbine leads are gone-
IThe visionaries of this game aren't at carb anymore- so who knows what it'll bring in the new year...
Drop 3/4 won't fix population issues-its a disalutioment
The story in game updates are so far and apart that I've lost interest in the main story already n forgotten what the heck was goin on since I done it so long ago
 
This will be my last mmo of invested time.	
----
			I am uncomfortably reminded of Exteel... including the action gameplay.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
So you want to suggest to put another gate on an already limited amount of content in this game.
 
Okay.
----