137333-ingame-costs-are-ridiculous-page-3

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Nazryn, on 07 Oct 2015 - 1:51 PM, said:
 
Yes Sly, if your guild is literally so divorced from the fact that this game was relaunched 7 days ago, for which time it was largely uplayable and expects every single member to be re-optimized with no guild assistance immeditaly or face expulsion, then it IS terrible. I of course have no idea what your guild's policies actually are, but your desctiptions here where people and I quote "*need*" to immeditaly rerune gear or else people are being cut / leaving the game lead me to believe that this is either:
 
1) the case in your guild
 
2) the case in a guild you know of
 
3) bald faced and gross exaggeration
 
It could be any of those three things, I'm not one to judge but if a guild really was so callous I would have no problem telling their leadership they are terrible.
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I think you're looking at the wrong thing here.
 
We're talking about having to pay real money or excessive in game costs for things that we have already done. Re-launch or not, W* is over a year old and we've earned our lashes already, no need for more scars.
 
 
And I challenge you to find a guild that would be okay with giving you gear upgrades in a raid and then you not using them for a month while you wait to have enough Omnibits to buy the service tokens needed. That's not a mean or harsh guild, that's reality. Because I always expected my raiders to be enchanted and gemmed in WoW by the next raid session. It's a standard not a mean thing for progression guilds in most MMOs. W* has added a pay to win aspect to that and that is what we don't like. Because it turns into a "pay Carbine to keep your raid spot" situation.
 
Sorry if you think that's a horrible guild, but in 16 years of playing MMOs that's been the case in every serious progression minded guild I have been in with EQ, EQ2, CoH, WoW, Rift, DAoC, Warhammer, and SWotR being raid ready by the next session with any gear you got for main set the session before was an expectation.
 
 
We're letting Carbine off too much by saying "they just relaunched". The games been out over a year, treating your previous customers like this rebrand/launch or not is unacceptable. Server and login stuff is understandable, these issues aren't.
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Yes Sly, if your guild is literally so divorced from the fact that this game was relaunched 7 days ago, for which time it was largely uplayable and expects every single member to be re-optimized with no guild assistance immeditaly or face expulsion, then it IS terrible. I of course have no idea what your guild's policies actually are, but your desctiptions here where people and I quote "*need*" to immeditaly rerune gear or else people are being cut / leaving the game lead me to believe that this is either:
 
1)  the case in your guild
 
2)  the case in a guild you know of
 
3)  bald faced and gross exaggeration
 
It could be any of those three things, I'm not one to judge but if a guild really was so callous I would have no problem telling their leadership they are terrible.
 
 
If your members need time and help to re optimize after a full relaunch then as a guild, you work together to make it happen even if it means a week with out a full raid. Or are my expectations of like minded groups of players in a social game also too "old fashioned"?
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Honestly I don't know how people went from pre-drop no mention at all of repairs, grinds, etc, and now that F2P's drop hits all I see are talks about repair costs and grinding to cover them. I've gone up 30p so far this week personally. Hey if you think repair costs being lessened will help you out go ahead and make more calls for it, I just know I don't have any issues making money.
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I challenge you to find a guild that would be okay with giving you gear upgrades in a raid and then you not using them for a month while you wait to have enough Omnibits to buy the service tokens needed.
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i'm not letting anyone off by saying "it just relaunched". But the reality is, it DID just relaunch, and a ton of people, on these very forums, begged for rune changes. I see this as literally getting what we asked for, and crying because of the unforseen implications. 
 
Am I really wrong for expecting a guild to act like one? Maybe I'm just too used to playing with nice people....
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1)  We wanted these rune changes, but with realistic and reasonable costs.  30+ plat for base rerolling after the patch, then god knows how much over the lifetime is not reasonable for something you already had set up previously.  Requiring tokens that are new and can only be farmed over 4 weeks or bought with real money is not reasonable for something you already had set up previously.  Restricting removing runes to the currency that's gated/throttled or you have to buy with real money is not reasonable.
 
I don't know what people expected at the outset of launching the new system..... 
 
2)  Not nice necessarily, just a different mind set and not a hard core progression minded guild to be sure.  To each their own, but the guild type that you're describing is rare in my experience.  Especially one that's seen any amount of raiding success.
 
The guild type i'm describing was a necessity in the past... though not necessarily in this game
 
 
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it's literally THE ONLY MMORPG on the market right now where I've seen a need to do that. Guild Wars 2? Don't need to do it. FFXIV? No need to do it. WoW? No need to do it. Tera? No need to do it. 
 
All of these games have systems that require substantial amount of money and time invested. However if you're a casual, playing the game casually and earning a casual amount of currency, you won't go broke from repairs, glamours or dyes. 
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Anyone who actually reads my posts (instead of picking out what they want to read) can clearly see that I was NEVER talking about TCO. I was talking about a hypothetical guild situation Sly detailed in his posts on this thread. 
 
That's actually not clear at all from your posts. Especially since Sly didn't detail any hypothetical guild situation, but rather discussed that removing runes requires service tokens ($) and you are essentially required to use them when upgrading gear with any kind of valuable runes in it, like class sets. Either that or farm or pay for the extremely expensive class set runes again, which, until your guild has all their sets, probably isn't going to be reasonably doable. 
 
"YOUR TERRIBLE GUILD" 
 
He did mention people leaving because of this, and along the way it was brought up that guilds (never was discussed which) were expecting players to be completely reruned or lose their spot. If readers assume I'm talking about ANY guild in particular instead of the nebulous guilds that have been discussed that's not on me. I'll give you that It's better to err on the side of not offending when possible, but frankly at this point I'm so tired of the petulent complaints I have exactly zero drive to waste time making sure every single piece of diction I use can't be arbitrarily misconstrued as some insult. 
 
Yea, someone else brought up the issue that guilds are expecting players to rune up or shut up. Nonetheless, I hardly think that responding to "your terrible guild" with offense is "arbitrarily misconstruing" something as an insult and more reading the plain language of your post. 
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Didn't mean to infer that, I was mainly speaking of myself as well with old game experiences.
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I still don't get why people go crazy for the Savage runs... is it the fancy title? Casual 1-50 in W* takes what, a week now? Two weeks? I originally asked because (as my Lala WHM) can attest, leveling and overall time spent in XIV is considerably more than W* for just about everything I can personally think of as being important (including raids). In W* the only real barriers to DS are gear and skill as a group (to get through GA first). Gear can be obtained in a couple weeks maybe months, and skill... well that's up to the players.
 
That said, I really truthfully can't believe stress through to Alex was less than literally having an extra couple days/ weeks to rerune gear in this game before raiding again....
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Because Savage is the only real raiding in FFXIV. Alex normal is too casual, meaning that you clear it in 2 days. 
 
I'm talking about the time that you HAVE to spend in game in order to do fun or cosmetic content. I don't see leveling as grinding, because it's normally a very relaxed time. You learn the story of the world. 
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Ah, well that's where we were missing eachother then. I consider leveling to be part of the time requirement / grind to raid. 
 
 
That's because I didn't actually call his guild terrible. Those three lone words were snipped out of context from a real sentence within the context of a paragraph which was set up as a hypothetical logical statement (IF : THEN). IF your guild does X,Y,Z, then it is Q. Not a personal attack or discussion of any particular guild. Please for the love of grammar, note the IF at the beggining of the original sentence before being cut to three words taken out of context.
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Oh yeah, I didn't mean to infer that you meant to infer that :) Was just clarifying what kind of guild we are :D
 
(Which btw, is a guild that knocked it out of the park in the first week, added a night of raiding and braved the lag just because they were excited, and got fully runed out by raid the next week- not that I checked, but the performance spoke for itself. I'm sure people aren't "optimized", but they are back where they were- stronger, in fact- and I'm proud of what we accomplished).
 
My feeling is that people worked harder than they should've had to, and so many alts/off specs are just completely destroyed. :(
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"Maybe your terrible guild has no soul and is cutting players left and right for not immediately optimizing" is not an hypothetical logical statement. A hypothetical logical statement would be "If you guild is cutting players left and right for not immediately optimizing, then it is a terrible guild." 
 
Your phrasing doesn't condition the guild being terrible on the cutting of players for not optimizing. Rather, it starts with your terrible guild and then suggests something that your terrible guild might be doing. So *cupcake*off with righteous indignation and persecution complex and just own up and apologize. *cupcake*you can't even tell the truth about what you said 1 page ago. That is some Ted Cruz level crap. 
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i'm not letting anyone off by saying "it just relaunched". But the reality is, it DID just relaunch,
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I originally was copying from what YOU had quoted Medic... then I realized you had quoted a different post which is why I Edited my post (and indicated my edit and that I added the quote from my earlier post). The post YOU originally linked was my post with the logical statement starting with "IF" the other post was the one starting with MAYBE. 
 
Neither are personal attacks, both are hypothetical (the IF and MAYBE are kinda important there). 
 
The whole world isn't out to get you and your friends, I promise. It's just NCSOFT coming for your money.
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your terrible guild
 
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			Well this thread I think has probably hit its high and low mark now.  Might be best to wrap it up.	
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			Mealawen has it right. For the sake of moving on and not derailing this any further, I will accept that regardless of what was written, my guild was only terrible in a conditional sense, a condition of which it is not guilty, thankfully, so we are in the clear!	
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Mealawen has it right. For the sake of moving on and not derailing this any further, I will accept that regardless of what was written, my guild was only terrible in a conditional sense, a condition of which it is not guilty, thankfully, so we are in the clear!
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So, any chance you can stop spreading the "Relaunch" lie now?
 
 
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Hey Slyjeff, sorry for the wall of "Soulequilibrium has liked your post" notifications you'll find or have found waiting for you. Needless to say, my thoughts mostly echo yours.
 
You know, as a collector of mounts, pets, dyes and toys the cash shop and ftp was a bane to me anyway. Basically having part of my end game locked behind a pay wall really took a lot of fun out of the game. But hey, at least I still had raiding. That part of my end game wouldn't be put in the cash shop I assumed. Imagine the joy I experienced when I learned of the runing and service tokens scheme. Basically if it wasn't for the excellent people in my guild I doubt I'd still be playing.
			
				
	Edited October 8, 2015 by SoulEquilibrium	
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Because costs to rune and dye gear have gone up significantly since drop 6. Of COURSE you wouldn't see complaints pre-drop 6, because prices were reasonable!
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Let me try and refocus this onto the topic of the actual thread along with some others.
 
It is logical that certain players will have no issue with the spiked costs. Obviously, anyone who can actually pull in 80plat a week won't notice dropping 10-20 plat on... anything really.
 
This thread is not here to echo /all players/.
 
This thread is here to raise a point of concern about a /transparently bad/ business model.
 
I have never had more than 11plat on my character at one time. The key difference between my casual play and some others listed here is 'playing the CX/AH'. Let me tell you how much I have /no desire/ to learn how to game the AH just to /break even/ on my costs.
 
So here's the reality of gameplay for /me/. Not overextending, not blaming my (awesome!) guild, not trying to appeal to any false sense of 'majority'.
 
1) I play for 2-3 hours of casual content most evenings.
2) I do not have time or interest to spend my game-time managing the AH unless I get some super-rare drop from blind RNG luck that I might make some bonus plat off of. (this has happened twice in my 1year+ playing WS)
3) I earn about a plat a day doing this content.
4) I have 111 omnibits since F2P. Keep in mind, 60 omnibits gets you 30 service tokens, which is TWO rune re-elements.
5) I was able to use the service-token bag from the daily login bonus to get my main character at least healthy for runes on her main spec.
6) my alts can't be runed, because the one that tried went bankrupt on the first runeslot
7) my main went bankrupt doing a workorder for crafting because I didn't watch the costs properly. Yes, my bad on that, but it made the cost spike /very/ clear.
8) I am now back up to 5plat on my main. Total. I have done at least 2 daily zones and a shiphand or two every day between other obligations.
 
So, yes, for ME... 30g per re-roll on an elemental slot, 1plat per dye channel, or 1plat per workorder is /prohibitive/.
 
Oh, and I /did/ spend money on Ncoin. $10 worth. I used it to get a character slot and a wardrobe extension. Because that's the part of the /game/ that I /enjoy/.
 
So that's my reality. If letting the game developers know that their pricing model is /making me not want to play/ is 'entitlement', then I am entitled.
 
But yes, just to say it, I am now /considering/ playing/learning the AH market, because I've now been brow-beaten by four players (with hundreds of plat sitting on them) to say that it's 'very easy' and 'the plat just rolls in'. So yes, I'm considering taking on a JOB in the GAME because I'm /so desperate/ for spending money in my imaginary game world.
 
I think that really only adds to my own point.	
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			Good people and good raids cover a multitude of sins!	
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Yeah no, same deal. Runic flux + more slots. Runic flux originally cost 3p and eventually 2p then eventually 1p or so a few weeks before drop. You also had more unlocks to do which were 50g per or so on DS gear. Not to mention you had to rune all the "extra" pieces, the only lucky part was that runes were more accessible but they've changed that so runes are more like raiding gear now.
 
I'm not even sure if people complaining about runing ever had to do a full set of legendary gear pre-drop, or rerune after one DS run where the new purple gear completely replaced your old legendary gear from GA. After that of course, you'd have to rerune -again-  when you get set pieces/higher level purples from DS, this is honestly nothing new.
 
In any case, as far as the new rune system I'd still say my complaint would be that divine fragments are annoying to farm for.
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The do need to fix this extremely expensive  rune modification, dying and crafting system.  I thought it was to good to be true. And now I fear in  a couple of months time we will get a repeat of the last years launch.  Also with repairs cost being more expensive than before, high level swipes will become unpleasant to the point of down right rudeness.  
 
I would try to fix this imbalance with the signature service,  which doesn't seem much of a service at the moment.  Its pitiful and its affecting the credd prices. 
 
 	
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Four color rolls across four sets of gear! Not a great deal. Oh, but don't forget, if I have important runes (like a class set) that I'll want to extract, the only way to do it is through service tokens, so I need to make sure saving 225 tokens is a top priority (because I don't want to roll on an upgrade and then have to wait for a month to use it while I farm omnibits that are soft capped weekly at 120). So maybe not best to waste my tokens on something I can use plat for.
 
Also, I've seen nothing that indicates subs get omnibits faster.
 
And we can't take weeks/months to get decent runes in (which requires rerolling) because going backwards in progression causes people to lose interest in the game.
 
Oh, and you are punished for upgrading runes at a price of 2 plat per piece of gear.
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Yeah, it seems like the best fix for the re-runing debate is to allow people to re-roll those slots for gold while leaving service tokens as an option for people who would rather spend their gold on other things.  I'm not sure I understand why people are arguing about it and not in unanimous agreement that this feature should be included in the mile-long list of things that can be paid for using multiple types of currency. 
 
Truth be told, I'm not even sure what the goals are of those who are arguing against changes to the way re-rolling rune slots is paid for.  Very strange indeed.	
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On my new low level dominion alt in 15+ zone, i forgot to get rewards for 2 quests in 1-15 zone. And i need 1.5gold to quick-travel here... while quest reward is 60 copper(copper!!!).
 
I can bought whole mount for 10 gold! It is better to abandon these quests and move on. <_<	
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I seriously hate to use this word.... but even my diction isn't large enough to avoid it. This whole discussion reeks of entitlement. Go ahead, flame away... I'd take a month of farming keys as a group of 30 just to get one shot at a pre raid boss fight just to hopefully beat them, get their seal, then repeat that 3 more times to get into a single raid instance, and hopefully not fail and have to do it all over again with no reward. At least that felt like I earned something when I did.
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Let me try and refocus this onto the topic of the actual thread along with some others.
 
It is logical that certain players will have no issue with the spiked costs. Obviously, anyone who can actually pull in 80plat a week won't notice dropping 10-20 plat on... anything really.
 
This thread is not here to echo /all players/.
 
This thread is here to raise a point of concern about a /transparently bad/ business model.
 
I have never had more than 11plat on my character at one time. The key difference between my casual play and some others listed here is 'playing the CX/AH'. Let me tell you how much I have /no desire/ to learn how to game the AH just to /break even/ on my costs.
 
So here's the reality of gameplay for /me/. Not overextending, not blaming my (awesome!) guild, not trying to appeal to any false sense of 'majority'.
 
1) I play for 2-3 hours of casual content most evenings.
2) I do not have time or interest to spend my game-time managing the AH unless I get some super-rare drop from blind RNG luck that I might make some bonus plat off of. (this has happened twice in my 1year+ playing WS)
3) I earn about a plat a day doing this content.
4) I have 111 omnibits since F2P. Keep in mind, 60 omnibits gets you 30 service tokens, which is TWO rune re-elements.
5) I was able to use the service-token bag from the daily login bonus to get my main character at least healthy for runes on her main spec.
6) my alts can't be runed, because the one that tried went bankrupt on the first runeslot
7) my main went bankrupt doing a workorder for crafting because I didn't watch the costs properly. Yes, my bad on that, but it made the cost spike /very/ clear.
8) I am now back up to 5plat on my main. Total. I have done at least 2 daily zones and a shiphand or two every day between other obligations.
 
So, yes, for ME... 30g per re-roll on an elemental slot, 1plat per dye channel, or 1plat per workorder is /prohibitive/.
 
Oh, and I /did/ spend money on Ncoin. $10 worth. I used it to get a character slot and a wardrobe extension. Because that's the part of the /game/ that I /enjoy/.
 
So that's my reality. If letting the game developers know that their pricing model is /making me not want to play/ is 'entitlement', then I am entitled.
 
But yes, just to say it, I am now /considering/ playing/learning the AH market, because I've now been brow-beaten by four players (with hundreds of plat sitting on them) to say that it's 'very easy' and 'the plat just rolls in'. So yes, I'm considering taking on a JOB in the GAME because I'm /so desperate/ for spending money in my imaginary game world.
 
I think that really only adds to my own point.
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All of the raid bosses in XI required serious coordinated tactics, almost to an absurd degree (in some cases literally to an absurd degree). I personally, and many critics empirically rate some of XI's raid bosses among the most challenging ever. That 
 
I don't buy arguments on RNG and money with slots. I'm sure it frustrates people, but go camp HNM's for days just to hope you get a drop with a 1% chance tat you then must out roll or rank 36 other people to get. Yea RNG is frustrating, but that's the name of the RPG game.
 
I still play XI on occasion. It's a fun game, great story, great fights. I've played W* since Beta / launch as well. Been here the whole time loving it all the way. I don't know why you question why I'm here, I've rarely complained about the game or gameplay, I genuinely enjoyed the old rune system and preferred when rune slots couldn't be rerolled. The only thing I'm not perfectly content with is Carbine's willingness to listen to vocal portions of the player base. Yea yea, everyone wan't to feel like their opinion matters, but this is Carbine's game. IMO it should have been left to succeed or fail on it's own merits, not have to drastically change it's game systems every half a year becuse people are never happy and keep complaining. One perfect example is now, people begged for rune system changes, they gave them to us, and we complain we need to re rune. 
 
W* has the best aesthetics, housing system, combat system, and the best original lore out of any MMO I can think of off the top of my head. I don't know why I should have to defend why I've stayed literally the whole time, it's a great game. 
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You don't need to game the AH, just take a very small amount of time thinking about what you're selling when. You can easily check by viewing the transaction logs on items you are thinking of selling.
 
Economy is part of the game in MMO's, may not be the most fun part, but it is a part of them. Like I mentioned earlier, keep your sales slots full and sell regular items with good turnover and you'll be making a decent about of plat. Heck, just 10 items a day at 10g nets you over 10 plat in a week.
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Humor me on this. Explain to me what exactly you feel would be lost if people did not have to worry about a gold grind to accomplish the basic needs of raiding (i.e. things like runing gear, not so much buying gear as viable upgrades/side-grades). That they could happily focus devoting their time to mastering boss fight mechanics rather than having to make sure they set aside enough time to also grind out currency instead. How exactly do you think the game would be diminished? 
 
On a similar note, explain why you feel 'out of raid' activities are so vital to beating a raid feeling like an accomplishment.
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I refuse to go broke attempting to get my gear even close to where it was pre-patch. That should have never been allowed to go through. I can't even put stop-gap runes in my gear for now to work my way up to the "correct" sets, because I then incur the punishment cost of destroying the runes. I think it's equally disgusting that they locked extracting runes behind Service Tokens. I simply will not support that.
 
I refuse to be asked to spend absurd amounts of plat just to dye my gear when before drop 6, costs were mostly reasonable (save for those orange-quality dyes). Something that was once fun and easy to re-customize on a whim has become a burden great enough that I'm choosing to look away. I'm not even bothering considering the cash shop dyes, because why bother when they will cost so much to use? Carbine is shooting themselves in the foot by restricting the use of the kinds of things that will ultimately net them the most money: cosmetics.
 
Nope. Not gonna do it. Shouldn't have to.	
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yeah, I get no sense of achievement pushing that "reroll" button and watching my plat go down. Just a sick sensation in my stomach.
 
Literally, re-rolling slots makes me feel physically ill. It's such a bad, bad, bad addition to the game.
 
I didn't mind the old system because the cost was known, and you could generally make use of the slots between the two options presented. But the new system just feels like pouring plat down the drain while I hope for a lucky roll. And when it comes, not sense of accomplishment. Just relief that the pain is finally over.
 
Oh yeah, that's some fun right there.
			
				
	Edited October 8, 2015 by SlyJeff	
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On both counts, my answer is the only thing that I've felt is seriously lacking in W*. An honest sense of accomplishment. In XI, it was a pain in the cupcake to get even decent gear and to actually complete the story, let alone run end game raids. But when I did succeed I seriously felt like I had caught that carrot on the end of my stick. 
 
When you have to really work hard to prepare for encounters, it (at least to me) feels much more meaningful when you succeed and beat them.
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I bought the game on release and subscribed for quite a few months, up till the server merge because i had no interest being on a pve server. I have a feeling PVP is going to die all over again, ive just finished getting my full legendary pvp gear and im about to start grinding for set runes.
 
I just had the worst feeling ever while playing a game, before getting all my slots to legendary i thought i should add some low level runes in the mean time, spent about 6 plat doing so + probably another 8 re-rolling into the runes i want for 80% of my gear.  And hearing from a streamer that i have to pay even more gold on top to remove my old now crap runes makes it hard for me to recommend this game to anyone.
 
People without runes will never beat  a person with runes unless he has a stroke, and i can guarantee my two friends who ive convinced to play with me will probably go back to league of legends when they see this horrible rune system.
 
 
Also with the dye situation i would rather see exclusive dye sets for real money on the store rather than it costing a bomb to re customize your character every so often.
 
Edit
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Going bed, pvp die was probs harsh but it wont help the pvp community thrive or get new people.
			
				
	Edited October 8, 2015 by Mickers	
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In the play-method I described for myself above, I get... maybe 2-4 AH-able items in it. They'd go for... 10ish to 20ish gold each. So sure, that's another 80gold a day. That's great. It's still additional steps of gameplay I didn't need before to maintain my equilibrium of play.
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Sorry, just asking a question out of ignorance here, because this isn't the first time I've heard a player say that they view the AH as some kind of burden and I don't understand that sentiment at all.
 
If you get 2-4 AH-able items per day and DON'T sell them on the AH at a price that they'll move for, what are you doing with them? 
Is there some reason why the AH is a more burdensome place to drop them in comparison to vendoring them or putting them in a guild bank?
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Sorry, just asking a question out of ignorance here, because this isn't the first time I've heard a player say that they view the AH as some kind of burden and I don't understand that sentiment at all.
 
If you get 2-4 AH-able items per day and DON'T sell them on the AH at a price that they'll move for, what are you doing with them? 
Is there some reason why the AH is a more burdensome place to drop them in comparison to vendoring them or putting them in a guild bank?
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The do need to fix this extremely expensive  rune modification, dying and crafting system.  I thought it was to good to be true. And now I fear in  a couple of months time we will get a repeat of the last years launch.  Also with repairs cost being more expensive than before, high level swipes will become unpleasant to the point of down right rudeness.  
 
I would try to fix this imbalance with the signature service,  which doesn't seem much of a service at the moment.  Its pitiful and its affecting the credd prices. 
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So to you the people who have cleared GA and DS have not accomplished anything?
 
Please point to where I said that, with out conveniently not including the word "feeling" from the phrase pick.
 
That the people in FFXI who sat around for hours waiting for a specific NPC to spawn to quickly kill and hope the item they want drops have accomplished more?
 
I would say hand's down the ones that took down AV, Kirin, and the XI "raid" bosses got a much greater feeling of accomplishment, whether that feeling is valid is not something any of us could truly say. I would also say the same of HNM's compared to world bosses in W*.
 
Sorry...while the FFXI gearing system was a pain, it was by no means challenging. If you had enough hours to devote to the game, anyone of any skill level could get past it eventually. That's what a time sink is. But I don't feel like beating a blatant time sink like that is some monumental accomplishment. Congrats, you pushed the button enough times for the system to finally reward you. In the meantime, that time spent did nothing to improve your teamwork, leadership skills, game mechanical skill, etc.
 
I don't disagree on the gearing system; but I would suggest time sinks are a challenge in and of themselves. As for improving your teamwork and skills, it was almost impossible not to, since the best gear required bound drops, or was bound and only dropped from the gods, HNM's, and raids (Kirin, Dynamis, etc). 
 
Also...are you implying there's no preparation for raids in this game (or other modern MMOs for that manner)? Really? People aren't reading up on strats...talking tactics with their raid groups...trying to optimize rotations/builds...procuring consumables...? Those aren't preparations to you?
 
Of course those are preparations. But with attunement effectively gone, and no substantial hurdles to jump into raiding, the preparation required is less. Yes you need proper gear, yes you need to hash out strategies and make item preparations. But you don't have to sit around farming NM's in Tu'Lia just to collect pieces to pop more NM's to get the items to pop yet more until you can finally spawn a god... who you must beat, then beat the other 3 to get the seals to get a chance at Kirin. EQ and EQ2 had some similarly requirement heavy raids.
 
 
It's time to consider why developers continue to move away from the models of 2 decades ago.
 
It might also be time to consider why those that do so completely also tend to fail. I'm not at all suggesting you don't have a point, you do. But that particular sword cuts both ways, and there are benefits to keeping certain elements of older games along with more recent ideas. There is a reason FFXI survived to 15 years as a full sub game the whole way and is only being shuttered next year because their PS2 Era systems are finally wholly out dated. I won't sit here and tell you you're wrong though, you of course have a point with the newer generations of games. But while we toss on the new, lets also not fix what isn't broken. 
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 Carbine you have at your disposal ways to make big bucks.. its been mentioned about the customizable npcs with races.. and sell them in the shop.. id easily pay good money for those.. we need sexy gear!!! wheres our vanity styles fluff.. this is the shit people dump money into cash shop costumes i spent several hundred dollars on gw2  cuz im a sucker for appeal.. as it stands right now my 6 original styles are still my favorite.. so i see zero reason to buy costumes since i find most of the gear and styles in the game as meh (that is just my taste)...Give me the good fluff and ill spit out more money on top of my sig... as it stands i got ncoin that i have nothing i want to buy right now.. amp it up guys.. you can stil have sexy gear and stay within the teen rating... 
 
As far as price gouging runes i can understand it somewhat but from the sounds of it a lot of stuff is over priced i havn't had the opportunity to see it for myself other than the obscene prices on dyes.. If its to get players to buy credd to pay for runeing.. that would be fine if the credd wasn't dropping at such a rate right now.. pretty soon credd sales will drop because its not worth buying it to sell.. 10 plat doesn't seem like its worth 20 bucks.. so some economy tweaking is needed.	
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Debating the nuance can't really change how people feel about things, which is all that's really important in game design. If most players feel that these changes make the game significantly less fun than it was 2 weeks ago, they need to be reverted. It's that simple.
 
Find other ways to monetize us, this isn't the right path. Spending money should be fun, not grudging. Cash shop purchases should make you smile, not take away pain. Positive reinforcement, NOT negative.
 
Besides, service token implementation is dangerously close to pay to win when their currency does things gold can't. Carbine, you don't want that label. You really, really don't.
			
				
	Edited October 8, 2015 by eMachiavelli	
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I refuse to go broke attempting to get my gear even close to where it was pre-patch. That should have never been allowed to go through. I can't even put stop-gap runes in my gear for now to work my way up to the "correct" sets, because I then incur the punishment cost of destroying the runes. I think it's equally disgusting that they locked extracting runes behind Service Tokens. I simply will not support that.
 
I refuse to be asked to spend absurd amounts of plat just to dye my gear when before drop 6, costs were mostly reasonable (save for those orange-quality dyes). Something that was once fun and easy to re-customize on a whim has become a burden great enough that I'm choosing to look away. I'm not even bothering considering the cash shop dyes, because why bother when they will cost so much to use? Carbine is shooting themselves in the foot by restricting the use of the kinds of things that will ultimately net them the most money: cosmetics.
 
Nope. Not gonna do it. Shouldn't have to.
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If dying and clothing (dye, i expect i wrote it right) is too expensive for you, you can use service tokens which you get with omnibits. This coin is a new addition with the game that didn't have before, so you can keep playing as you did when it as a subscription game but use this new coin which didn't exist to dying your characters once or twice a month.
But yes, rune-rolling is too expensive. It should have at least a diminishing cost per item. LIke every time you rolled a slot in the item it will cost 20% less until 20% each. And 25 service tokens per slot is too much, maybe 2 would be more fair.
Crafting dailys have always been expensive.
			
				
	Edited October 8, 2015 by Thevic	
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I refuse to go broke attempting to get my gear even close to where it was pre-patch. That should have never been allowed to go through. I can't even put stop-gap runes in my gear for now to work my way up to the "correct" sets, because I then incur the punishment cost of destroying the runes. I think it's equally disgusting that they locked extracting runes behind Service Tokens. I simply will not support that.
 
I refuse to be asked to spend absurd amounts of plat just to dye my gear when before drop 6, costs were mostly reasonable (save for those orange-quality dyes). Something that was once fun and easy to re-customize on a whim has become a burden great enough that I'm choosing to look away. I'm not even bothering considering the cash shop dyes, because why bother when they will cost so much to use? Carbine is shooting themselves in the foot by restricting the use of the kinds of things that will ultimately net them the most money: cosmetics.
 
Nope. Not gonna do it. Shouldn't have to.
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{| class="blockquote"
If dying and clothing (dye, i expect i wrote it right) is too expensive for you, you can use service tokens which you get with omnibits. This coin is a new addition with the game that didn't have before, so you can keep playing as you did when it as a subscription game but use this new coin which didn't exist to dying your characters once or twice a month.
But yes, rune-rolling is too expensive. It should have at least a diminishing cost per item. LIke every time you rolled a slot in the item it will cost 20% less until 20% each.
Crafting dailys have always been expensive.
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Carbine listen to your customers, not the NCsoft accountants.
 
Its like you  are shit scared that people won't spend money on this game  You have an excellent product, the community recognises this.  They want to pay money to sub, buy credd,  and Ncions.  Please don't kill the goose that has layed the golden egg.  You seriously need to fix this,  before you end up like last year. A mass exodus from the game.	
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I have a feeling people are really confusing "hardcore" and "hard content"
 
Things can be hardcore but be super easy - like grinding plat.  Not fun - hurts real bad for anyone who can't dump a ton of time into WS for w/e reason, but if you have the time (and dedication) it's not that hard to run dailies n grind shiphands.
 
Allowing people not to go broke runing one piece of gear isn't going to suddenly nerf how hard the game is or any sense of acomplishment.  I really don't see how zoning out and grinding mobs = "so much better".  Just says "I have more time so I can actually use my gear sooner"
 
*shrug*	
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There probably wouldn't be a mass exodus, it would rather be a slow decline of the player base getting faster and faster.
This is an epic game,  there's no doubt about that.  I really just want carbine to succeed.  This is what wow used to be in the days of the burning crusade. But way much better.   So I hope they fix it.  Because if the game gets to expensive they may lose the repeat customers which in an mmo is your revenue stream.
 	
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{| class="blockquote"
If dying and clothing (dye, i expect i wrote it right) is too expensive for you, you can use service tokens which you get with omnibits. This coin is a new addition with the game that didn't have before, so you can keep playing as you did when it as a subscription game but use this new coin which didn't exist to dying your characters once or twice a month.
But yes, rune-rolling is too expensive. It should have at least a diminishing cost per item. LIke every time you rolled a slot in the item it will cost 20% less until 20% each. And 25 service tokens per slot is too much, maybe 2 would be more fair.
Crafting dailys have always been expensive.
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You could add the 10$ you should spent on subscription now (even if  you didn't cause you bought CREDD) to the maths and convert it to money or service tokens. Do plans still cost the same number of vouchers? I havent looked at that yet.
I remembered dying had been always expensive, maybe not this much but I think my first dying in Dominion Red was almost a platinum.	
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Sorry, just asking a question out of ignorance here, because this isn't the first time I've heard a player say that they view the AH as some kind of burden and I don't understand that sentiment at all.
 
If you get 2-4 AH-able items per day and DON'T sell them on the AH at a price that they'll move for, what are you doing with them? 
Is there some reason why the AH is a more burdensome place to drop them in comparison to vendoring them or putting them in a guild bank?
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The current RNG reroll system is only good at making people rage quit, any player can spend all his currency and archive nothing, in fact, the best approach right now is use service token. Sure, is builded around that idea to ensure a steady income but IMO is going to do more harm than good.
 
Carbine could remove the RNG from rerolling and make it a little more complex. For example: added to the current fee a X amount of the proper elemental signs are needed, since literally everyone can generate them isn't going to be a problem and even provided a steady income for new players.
 
Another problem is the fee for destroy a rune, make no sense at all and only penalize players willing to use place holder runes till they work on good ones instead of leaving the slot empty. Honest, remove the fee and keep the rune recovery as service token exclusive, is a good convenience that feel optional and a lot of players will use it without enraging others.
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The current RNG reroll system is only good at making people rage quit, any player can spend all his currency and archive nothing, in fact, the best approach right now is use service token. Sure, is builded around that idea to ensure a steady income but IMO is going to do more harm than good.
 
Carbine could remove the RNG from rerolling and make it a little more complex. For example: added to the current fee a X amount of the proper elemental signs are needed, since literally everyone can generate them isn't going to be a problem and even provided a steady income for new players.
 
Another problem is the fee for destroy a rune, make no sense at all and only penalize players willing to use place holder runes till they work on good ones instead of leaving the slot empty. Honest, remove the fee and keep the rune recovery as service token exclusive, is a good convenience that feel optional and a lot of players will use it without enraging others.	
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			That's because no-one understands backgamon.  :P	
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Sorry, just asking a question out of ignorance here, because this isn't the first time I've heard a player say that they view the AH as some kind of burden and I don't understand that sentiment at all.
 
If you get 2-4 AH-able items per day and DON'T sell them on the AH at a price that they'll move for, what are you doing with them? 
Is there some reason why the AH is a more burdensome place to drop them in comparison to vendoring them or putting them in a guild bank?
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{| class="blockquote"
just be happy u can reroll more than once... rng will always be part of games in general ... board games that use dice are rng and i have never heard anyone complain about backgammon being too hard
 
(well maybe not chess and tactical games like that so if u dont want to deal with rng i am sure there are strategy games out there)
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			Fee to Play doesn't mean not having to spend cash for convenience. You have referenced a plat cost to all the services correct? I will grant you no one likes grinding vs having to shell out cash but just because a game is free to play doesn't mean the game doesnt need to pay employees and hopefully earn a profit in the process. NOTHING in life is free, free to play in MMOs basically means you will either pay with cash or pay with TIME, because there is the TIME option they get away with calling it free. It is up to you to decide how valuable your time is.	
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Fee to Play doesn't mean not having to spend cash for convenience. You have referenced a plat cost to all the services correct? I will grant you no one likes grinding vs having to shell out cash but just because a game is free to play doesn't mean the game doesnt need to pay employees and hopefully earn a profit in the process. NOTHING in life is free, free to play in MMOs basically means you will either pay with cash or pay with TIME, because there is the TIME option they get away with calling it free. It is up to you to decide how valuable your time is.
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True, however no other western AAA free to play MMO is this grindy. Why should I grind for 2 hours every day before I can do fun things, if I can go to now F2P GW2 and not do that? If I can go to Tera and not do that?
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you dont need to grind 2h to do fun things ... you can do fun things and get the money from doing them ... 
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You could add the 10$ you should spent on subscription now (even if  you didn't cause you bought CREDD) to the maths and convert it to money or service tokens. Do plans still cost the same number of vouchers? I havent looked at that yet.
I remembered dying had been always expensive, maybe not this much but I think my first dying in Dominion Red was almost a platinum.
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			maybe I'm weird... I think the costs are great. I know this isn't a main topic but even though I have a full time job I find omnibits cheaper than shit compared to ncsoft coins. I'm really surprised they went that route...	
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			Making a few platinum is much easier than it used to be. I leveled a character to 50 before the game went f2p and currency was pretty easy to make, and now it's even easier with more quest rewards than before, and an actual market to participate in due to people actually playing. Of course people are going to get angry because off the change but it will balance out...	
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I'm not sure how paying 2-3p for a runic flux made it any better
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{| class="blockquote"
just be happy u can reroll more than once... rng will always be part of games in general ... board games that use dice are rng and i have never heard anyone complain about backgammon being too hard
 
(well maybe not chess and tactical games like that so if u dont want to deal with rng i am sure there are strategy games out there)
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{| class="blockquote"
Fee to Play doesn't mean not having to spend cash for convenience. You have referenced a plat cost to all the services correct? I will grant you no one likes grinding vs having to shell out cash but just because a game is free to play doesn't mean the game doesnt need to pay employees and hopefully earn a profit in the process. NOTHING in life is free, free to play in MMOs basically means you will either pay with cash or pay with TIME, because there is the TIME option they get away with calling it free. It is up to you to decide how valuable your time is.
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{| class="blockquote"
This rng is not like a board game at all.
 
Fun rng is where you roll a dice, and if you get a 6 someone gives you a piece of pie.
 
This rng is like rolling a dice and until you get a 6 on it, someone punches you in the face.
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{| class="blockquote"
I'm ALREADY PAYING A SUB. I'm not asking for FREE. I'm asking that my sub be enough for me to play the game. And yes, it is, as long as I'm super careful about how I use my omnibits and am willing to blow loads of plat on the reroll slot machine. But those are things that I, as an already paying customer, shouldn't have to do just to be effective at the content.
 
Does that sound entitled? Well, I *do* feel entitled that if I'm paying my $15 per month, and I'm overcoming the content with my team, and I'm doing a little bit of maintenance on the side for my gear, and I display the skill necessary to beat the content, that I should be able to progress. Hoarding a month of service tokens for gear extraction and expensive, high roller slot machine pulls should not be added to the list of requirements.
 
Yes, the devs need to eat. And I want to pay them. But they aren't going to get to eat if they create a painful process that drives subs away from the game.
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{| class="blockquote"
if the content is too hard for you/your group you have to do easier content. cant just hop into vet dungeons with no gear and expect to pass the gearchecks, even asgood player.
and you should get used to that in wildstar. you cant just go GA and clear it if you have the prequest.
your guild needs to learn all encounters and even if they are good players someone will make mistakes during the fights because we are no robots. and once you have GA clear you cant just go and farm DS.
People have to stop going into content that is too hard for them and then start complaining about everything beeing to hard, not having gold. whatever.
/rant
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{| class="blockquote"
if you're not learning the content. If you are learning the content, your repair costs will be greater than your earnings. Also if you don't find cosmetic stuff fun. If you love changing your appearance often, then redyeing yourself is 2 plat a go. Versus GW2's free.
 
EDIT: imagine this, I am feeling like doing a dungeon. There are some new people in my guild that I know that meet the gear requirements, or I'm feeling charitable and I just queue up. I get an all new team. We wipe for a few hours, I have to switch to my PvP gearset mid dungeon because there's nowhere to repair. I break two gearsets. End up paying 1 plat in repairs. Meaning that I need to grind that plat beforehand.
 
Now imagine I feel the same way in GW2 and make LFGs for Arah explorable, or the Aethrblade path of TA with "everyone's welcome" as the LFG text. I get new people. We wipe for 2-3 hours before we complete it. But all that is lost is my time, because repairs are free. 
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{| class="blockquote"
you get 25% bonus gold, 5% from 2step and pots too ... if u cant get the gold u need at over 30% increased drop then nothing is going to help you
 
While we played in p2p we still needed tonnes of plat for rune stuff ... right now you need 6 runes to get a full set, in f2p we need 12-24 ... some of those runes sold for 7plat each ... good luck getting a full set 
 
we didnt have the bonus gold
 
so now people complaining about being a subscriber is just silly ... you have it nice if it only costs you 5 plat to get the best rune on a specific slot.
 
We used to have about 80 slots, now we have 35... can u imagine just how much money we needed to spend to get all the runes where they needed to be, balanced across all the items... without being able to reroll indefinitely if you are unlucky in getting the slots u needed to finish the set (on a new item) you needed to go back and rebalance all the previous runes to make sure everything works... this could take 50 plat per item if it was bad enough ... 
 
the current runing system is amazing in relation money wise
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{| class="blockquote"
We used to have about 80 slots, now we have 35... can u imagine just how much money we needed to spend to get all the runes where they needed to be, balanced across all the items... without being able to reroll indefinitely if you are unlucky in getting the slots u needed to finish the set (on a new item) you needed to go back and rebalance all the previous runes to make sure everything works... this could take 50 plat per item if it was bad enough ... 
 
the current runing system is amazing in relation money wise
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{| class="blockquote"
most guilds spend a month wiping on system daemons 5 days a week 3 hours per day before killing it the 1st time
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{| class="blockquote"
yea so did we. i dont get your point.
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{| class="blockquote"
that if people expect to get from ga to ds for no cost they are very mistaken ... we had 19 pulls per 3 hours and after 300 (at least) finally killed it. If people are complaining about the cost being too high then just wait until they hit that wall
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{| class="blockquote"
+1 i runed my GA20 to DS40gear for 200p, DS40 -> DS20 was another 110p (it would have been easily 200p again if i had not bough the mats 2weeks early). now i spend ALOT less.
runing was always super expensive. now you can (i admit at a slow rate) get expensive runes out of your old gear and put into new gear. in the past you had to destroy them. or you can choose what slot you want, also for free.
raiding in wildstar is expensive, except it. it has always been expensive.
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{| class="blockquote"
I wouldn't know because I quit Wildstar before getting to that point, but it is obvious that the game didn't do that well. Maybe it's not the smartest move to keep the same features it had. Players today don't want to gold grind to participate in raiding. WoW realized that long ago and Wildstar should too. When the new players reach that point it's not going to be pretty.
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{| class="blockquote"
The whole rune extracting is only a problem now when we lack the crafting resources to make our own stuff
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{| class="blockquote"
traja, on 08 Oct 2015 - 08:07 AM, said:
 
I wouldn't know because I quit Wildstar before getting to that point, but it is obvious that the game didn't do that well. Maybe it's not the smartest move to keep the same features it had. Players today don't want to gold grind to participate in raiding. WoW realized that long ago and Wildstar should too. When the new players reach that point it's not going to be pretty.
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{| class="blockquote"
Right now we have, spend X (where X is RNG when changing slot types) plat on a piece of gear to replace or set up runes + Omnibits/Ncoins to get service tokens to be able to accomplish the same thing. In addition, service token only for removing runes.
For example, changing 3 runes last night cost me 4 plat, and I got lucky and hit the type I wanted on the first try with two of the 3 slots. (This doesn't include making the runes themselves, only prepping the gear.)
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{| class="blockquote"
I wouldn't know because I quit Wildstar before getting to that point, but it is obvious that the game didn't do that well. Maybe it's not the smartest move to keep the same features it had. Players today don't want to gold grind to participate in raiding. WoW realized that long ago and Wildstar should too. When the new players reach that point it's not going to be pretty.
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{| class="blockquote"
It's going to be a loooong time before class set rune mats are available outside of farming.
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			Yea I came onto my level 50 and wanted to change her dye and about fell out of my chair when I saw that the Holo-Wardrobe wanted 1 platinum and 50 gold!  Criminy!  	
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{| class="blockquote"
we are in agreement then :)
current costs are not higher as before.
current costs are also not higher as in vanilla wow. i mean i picked flowers for hours to have enough manapots back in the days.... aint nobody got time for that now!
 
If you come to WS from a different mmo (lets saw final guild of warcraft 2) the PvE costs might seem high.
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{| class="blockquote"
u cant equip class set runes on gear that is not ilvl 100 , so the only way to get the gear is ga /ds and the only way to get them  is ga/ds so get them from your raid ... sure it will take time but it doesnt matter if they are in the ah or not as if u have the gear then u will get the focus from ur raid group anyway
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			Reading this kind of thread (as someone new to the game) is really demotivating and disheartening even if I don't feel the need to spend money presently. I really hate most of these F2P systems and especially if it's going to start gouging you. I guess the only reason I'm here at all is because it went F2P (and ESO turned into the devil..also thanks to F2P crap) but I can't help think I am wasting my time because I know once I get to max level I will discover all these "systems" that are meant to coerce you into spending money. I really don't mind spending money on a game that I like but it should never require more than what a monthly sub would cost to access 100% of the game. If the game is expecting you to spend more than that in any way that is sort of a red flag IMO.	
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{| class="blockquote"
Vanilla WoW is 10+ years ago. Most players are coming to WS from different MMOs, or from a WoW that has changed radically (for better or worse).
 
There's nothing wrong with Wildstar trying to recapture some of the old school feel, few MMOs are doing that anymore, But sticking to being so stubbornly #hardcore and at the same time going F2P and bringing real money transactions into the equation leads to a very messy place.
 
It's relatively quiet on these forums on the issue of raiding and rune costs because the F2P crowd haven't got there yet in any great numbers. But I doubt this will end well without further changes. Excessive RNG and excessive grind might be fine in a subscription game (if that's what floats your boat) but in a F2P game with real money transactions it's likely to get very ugly.
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{| class="blockquote"
You miss my point.
 
Which is- you are going to have to extract these runes from GA -> DS gear, and I don't think, even by that time, that you are going to see those runes on the market. But when those gear upgrades happen, my raid group won't be running GA anymore (as a main raid).
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{| class="blockquote"
The prices are almost literally the same as they've been for ages, if you've come back and have, for example, 10p only of course you'd be blown away because you have no clue what to do other than act like 10p used to feel like a lot of money. Do people just think we found some trick that gave us free plat or do they not trust that they are able to make plat?
 
 
 
I'm not sure how paying 2-3p for a runic flux made it any better, still not sure why anyone would reroll dungeon/ga gear either still honestly. General rule is and always will be, keep rerolling to a minimum and make use of what you have. Optimizing is a luxury, not a requirement, at least at the level of dungeons/GA. In any case, maybe people should give it some time, drop has only been out for basically a week and less if you count the 4 days of nearly unplayable conditions.
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{| class="blockquote"
Reading this kind of thread (as someone new to the game) is really demotivating and disheartening even if I don't feel the need to spend money presently. I really hate most of these F2P systems and especially if it's going to start gouging you. I guess the only reason I'm here at all is because it went F2P (and ESO turned into the devil..also thanks to F2P crap) but I can't help think I am wasting my time because I know once I get to max level I will discover all these "systems" that are meant to coerce you into spending money. I really don't mind spending money on a game that I like but it should never require more than what a monthly sub would cost to access 100% of the game. If the game is expecting you to spend more than that in any way that is sort of a red flag IMO.
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{| class="blockquote"
you dont need to grind 2h to do fun things ... you can do fun things and get the money from doing them ... 
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I added more to that post so please go back and have a look
 
Do you know what we are a guild have to do now (we were 7/9 in ds). we have to go to ga and farm out those stupid class rune sets because carbino changed everything again.
 
Once you finish with ga and actually get a piece of gear form ds you will have so many service tokens that you wont really care anymore
 
IF you think like this: Oh i killed ohmna now its time for ds ... I am sorry to say this but no... You need to have ohmna on farm for atleast 1-2 months before u even try ... 1 month of ohmna is some gear for 4 people in your raid (the important weapons are really important here as the dps check is real). you are going to spend atleast 2-3 months in ga after killing ohmna the 1st time because u will need to bring more people through ga to ohmna because if you think you original team is enough then you are dead wrong .... reserves are the lifeblood of raiding
 
By this time if u get 120 omnibits per week + 45 every 10 days (check the daily rewards its pretty cool) by the end of the 1st month you will have enough to buy 300 end of month 3 overall (without spending them on anything else [my plan] you will be swimming in them)
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			I noticed the stupidly high costs too. I'm not big fan of costumes or mounts. I'm more worried about the lack of functionality in form of auction/bank slots and number of characters you can make without spending money. I'm trying to figure out what class to play and having to have to delete characters after awhile to try different class is stupid.I feel that the point of rejection has just slightly shifted from "not gonna buy that to try" to "not gonna spend X amount of money to be able to play properly".Anything non-cosmetic should be free for this F2P thing to work.More base character slots please.	
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{| class="blockquote"
I can't even do the fun content (dungeons) before I get over the prohibitively expensive rune hurdle.
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