121424-to-save-the-dominion-illium-needs-to-be-redesigned

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A large reason why Domis are doing so poorly population wise is because of its capital. I know this because I was originally going to roll Domi until I got to illium during open beta. After 10 minutes of being in there I decided Dominion wasn't for me and went Exile instead.
 
Illium is way too clean and plastic like. It reminds me of the first town in Shrek 1.. Dulock or whatever. Everything is so spread out and lifeless. The pvp vendors are on one side, the AH is on the other, and the tradeskill vendors are all the way across town. This spreads the population out so much that the city feels empty. Also there doesn't seem like there's a lot going on. Illium needs way more NPCs and stuff.  For example, I'd get rid of the racetrack thing. Its just one big flat boring space. Replace it with park and add large trees and a small lake or something.	
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I totally don't agree with this.
I've started Dominion, and I find Illium extremely easy to navigate through. One look at the map and you know where everything is
Unlike in Thayd, where i spent around 25 minutes running around just to find the protostar housing building.
 
Thayd is way too big, and has a lot of areas that are not used or simply passages I need to run through to reach something.
This is not an issue in Illium where you have the crafting in the center, and 2 bank/AH locations 1 street away.
 
Also not sure what you mean with "nothing happening, feels empty".
Every time I log on our city is swamped with people, random roleplay yesterday and big clusters of people at the AH, landing pads, crafting vendors and gardens.	
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( personal opinion, ymmv )  I don't like Thayd, at all. It's hard to find anything and it's gigantic with a lot of wasted space and it doesn't feel like a 'city' to me at all.  I love Illium, but I'm most curious about this statement:  
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A large reason why Domis are doing so poorly population wise is because of its capital
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Just from my own personal experience. Wanted to be Dom, got to Illium and thought "Hmm so flat, spread out and lifeless. Do I really want this as my capital city? Where is everyone? Oh, everyones spread out across the city so it seems like there's only 5 people in Illium at any given time. Yea, guess I'll roll Exile"
 
Present day, I see lots of Dominion hanging out in Thayd wishing they had rolled Exile because "look at all these people"
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( personal opinion, ymmv ) 
 
I don't like Thayd, at all. It's hard to find anything and it's gigantic with a lot of wasted space and it doesn't feel like a 'city' to me at all. 
 
I love Illium, but I'm most curious about this statement: 
 
Where does that information come from? IMO it is not a capital city that decides whether or not someone will play a given faction. It's things like - what classes / race combinations are available to that side (Alliance used to be incredibly popular until horde came out with blood elves, as an example), and how the faction 'feels' as well as the initial starting areas. You don't experience any of the cities until you're into the game a bit. I think peoples choices as to whether they're rolling one way or another is based on things they see BEFORE the cities. 
 
(again just opinion)
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I'm afraid the problem is much deeper than just the city designs. By all accounts, Ilium is far better designed, and really, if there's a healthy enough population to support it, having people spread out is much better.
 
The real cause of lack of Dominion players, aside from those stuck on Exile because their friends chose it, stems mainly from a few different categories, that may or may not overlap.
 
1. Prefer Exile races. (Nuff said)
2. Want to play the underdogs (despite the fact the Dominion are the real underdogs)
3. Are under the impression the Exiles are infallible heroes and believe playing an Exile is the moral high-ground.
 
The initial game hype did a lot to damage the view of the Dominion, mainly because their "good" side was rarely if ever shown, and people are starting to attribute bad guys with the kiddies. For whatever reason, I don't really know. I'm guessing this comes from SWTOR?
 
Anywho, it's really just a matter of people bothering to try the Dominion, and us Dommies getting some decent press for a change.	
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			Well apparently I was the only one who felt this way. Discussion over then =)	
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Well apparently I was the only one who felt this way. Discussion over then =)
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I'm afraid the problem is much deeper than just the city designs. By all accounts, Ilium is far better designed, and really, if there's a healthy enough population to support it, having people spread out is much better.
 
The real cause of lack of Dominion players, aside from those stuck on Exile because their friends chose it, stems mainly from a few different categories, that may or may not overlap.
 
1. Prefer Exile races. (Nuff said)
2. Want to play the underdogs (despite the fact the Dominion are the real underdogs)
3. Are under the impression the Exiles are infallible heroes and believe playing an Exile is the moral high-ground.
 
The initial game hype did a lot to damage the view of the Dominion, mainly because their "good" side was rarely if ever shown, and people are starting to attribute bad guys with the kiddies. For whatever reason, I don't really know. I'm guessing this comes from SWTOR?
 
Anywho, it's really just a matter of people bothering to try the Dominion, and us Dommies getting some decent press for a change.
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The Dominion are "the real underdogs"? LOL! No...
 
Having played both sides, this is completely false. The underdogs are the ones who (up until recently) have constantly been on the run for 300+ years from a massive, Galaxy Wide, "Planet Harvesting", Empire, that is bent on hunting them down and killing them. All because a few underdogs managed to wound said Galaxy Wide Empire's pride.
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Please, only Chua harvest Planet.
Cassian no get credit in this.
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You blasted Chua! Justice for Arboriaaaaa!
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Chua only needed wood for new table.
Not fault of Chua Aurin not wanted to share.
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Chua prefer quality.
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You sinister little fiends. You could have use the wood from the brooms that are up the behinds of all Cassians!
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http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii40/DustTirbe/Chua.gif
 
Chua happy to visit again.	
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Back on topic please. :) Or! Start a new thread to continue this discussion. 
 
Thank you,
- Team WildStar 	
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Never been to the dommy main city.
 
Only ever played Exile. Thayd is horrific to navigate sometimes. So much of it is wasted un-used space that just makes getting from A - B longer	
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The Dominion are "the real underdogs"? LOL! No...
 
Having played both sides, this is completely false. The underdogs are the ones who (up until recently) have constantly been on the run for 300+ years from a massive, Galaxy Wide, "Planet Harvesting", Empire, that is bent on hunting them down and killing them. All because a few underdogs managed to wound said Galaxy Wide Empire's pride. Said underdogs, who not only don't have an entire Empire's might and resources to back them up, but have to rely on salvaging whatever tech and supplies they can. In order to survive.
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By the real underdogs, I mean they're the much less played faction, and you don't see many folks cheering us on. On the PvP servers, (when those existed) Exiles would regularly zerg Dominion players with vastly superior numbers. Hence, Dominion are the underdogs by reality alone.
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Well, I admit I started playing Wildstar just because it had Aurin in it... :wub:
 
But beside that, it really was two things that cinched my decision to keep on the Exile side.
 
1) The first story arc in Celestion. When you stop the Chua from burning down the forest, save forest animals and trapped people from the fire, make a spiritual connection to the weave, summon the forest giants to smash the Dominion base, and finally ride into the idyllic, serene Aurin village on the shoulder of one of those giants... It sends shivers down my spine just to think of it. To me it still is the most sheer epic moment of them all in Wildstar, no matter how tough bosses I've met since (is there anything more bland than the Strain?). Not even the Mordesh could bring me down after that.
 
2) The museum sequence and holodeck training sequences on the Dominion arkship. If it is one thing I cannot stand, its smug arrogance, and those really, really rubbed me the wrong way and made my blood boil. Luckily, I encountered them after I did most of Celestion as an Exile, so I stayed with the game, but I never got off the arkship with any dominion character. And even if I would get over this, well, after the megaservers there are just that few character slots...
 
So, sorry Evade, but my mind was made up long before I encountered Thayd, and Illum I've never even seen.
 
It did not take me long to find my way around Thayd (it helps being used to cities that looks like this: http://cengstrand.jalbum.net/Beautiful%20Sweden/slides/Gotland%20Visby%20Huset%20Strykj%C3%A4rnet%20sept%2008.html ). You seldom stray from the really short open stretch between the crafting stations, the northern AH and the various zone choppers anyway. The most infuriating is actually when you have to report to that secret bunker, which is first a long ride away, and then a giant room where you are not allowed to use your horse. :(
 	
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I like that thayd has a lot of the stuff you regularly want (ah/CX mail, vendors, crafting bench)/all together.
 
However I Dont like its look, prefer illum.	
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( personal opinion, ymmv ) 
 
I don't like Thayd, at all. It's hard to find anything and it's gigantic with a lot of wasted space and it doesn't feel like a 'city' to me at all. 
 
I love Illium, but I'm most curious about this statement: 
 
Where does that information come from? IMO it is not a capital city that decides whether or not someone will play a given faction. It's things like - what classes / race combinations are available to that side (Alliance used to be incredibly popular until horde came out with blood elves, as an example), and how the faction 'feels' as well as the initial starting areas. You don't experience any of the cities until you're into the game a bit. I think peoples choices as to whether they're rolling one way or another is based on things they see BEFORE the cities. 
 
(again just opinion)
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Thayd is fine on live, but whoever decided to put the PTR vendbot at the museum deserves a slap :P
 
Yes it's big, but all the useful stuff is in the same area, the only reason I have to go south is for the occasional visit to the EG vendor.	
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A large reason why Domis are doing so poorly population wise is because of its capital. I know this because I was originally going to roll Domi until I got to illium during open beta. After 10 minutes of being in there I decided Dominion wasn't for me and went Exile instead.
 
Illium is way too clean and plastic like. It reminds me of the first town in Shrek 1.. Dulock or whatever. Everything is so spread out and lifeless. The pvp vendors are on one side, the AH is on the other, and the tradeskill vendors are all the way across town. This spreads the population out so much that the city feels empty. Also there doesn't seem like there's a lot going on. Illium needs way more NPCs and stuff.  For example, I'd get rid of the racetrack thing. Its just one big flat boring space. Replace it with park and add large trees and a small lake or something.
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Dude....we all know The Aurin..,oh I'm sorry I mean exiles (I just call them the Aurin in game because face it that's what you exiles are mostly) have one race that so many people seem keen on choosing....
 
"returning player decided to roll exile..."
"new player decided to roll exile..."
 
Then you find them in game and what race are they? What do you see mostly in PBG representing the Aurin? When people post pics of their character what race is it if they're The Aurin faction? What race are they streaming most likely as? If they're casual what race are they most likely going to roll? Yeah...	
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Dude....we all know The Aurin..,oh I'm sorry I mean exiles (I just call them the Aurin in game because face it that's what you exiles are mostly) have one race that so many people seem keen on choosing....
 
"returning player decided to roll exile..."
"new player decided to roll exile..."
 
Then you find them in game and what race are they? What do you see mostly in PBG representing the Aurin? When people post pics of their character what race is it if they're The Aurin faction? What race are they streaming most likely as? If they're casual what race are they most likely going to roll? Yeah...
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			Chua and proud!	
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Some of us don't roll Aurin, and we're proud of it!
 
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The pvp vendors are on one side, the AH is on the other
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I'm not sure... characters like Seeger are the reason people want more Aurin around.  Aurin so far drink a lot of juice and are sometimes vegetarian.    My last little bit of RP had Seeger painting a symbol on someone else's head with the blood of a jabbit raised in innocence and slaughtered with the bare hands.
 
 :unsure:   I may be part of the problem.
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Vic, players like you is what prevents Nexus from becoming a 2nd Arboria. Stand strong!
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A large reason why Domis are doing so poorly population wise is because of its capital. I know this because I was originally going to roll Domi until I got to illium during open beta. After 10 minutes of being in there I decided Dominion wasn't for me and went Exile instead.
 
Illium is way too clean and plastic like. It reminds me of the first town in Shrek 1.. Dulock or whatever. Everything is so spread out and lifeless. The pvp vendors are on one side, the AH is on the other, and the tradeskill vendors are all the way across town. This spreads the population out so much that the city feels empty. Also there doesn't seem like there's a lot going on. Illium needs way more NPCs and stuff.  For example, I'd get rid of the racetrack thing. Its just one big flat boring space. Replace it with park and add large trees and a small lake or something.
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And we're supposed to be the evil ones? oO
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			I didn't think Aurin could be so.......erm......vicious? Thought they were supposed to be cutesy tree huggers 	
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			My only complaint about Illium is the trek between crafting area and the AH/CX. Yeah, it takes only a few seconds, but when you ran out of a common resource with just one combination left or something, those few seconds are spent grumbling about having to run "all the way" to the CX to refill lol!	
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I'm dubious about Illium's design factoring in significantly to Dominion population. That said, there are a number of things I'd love to do to change up the flow of both cities and make them more convenient for all. I am extremely familiar with areas where both of them need to improve, and there are different issues to solve for each of them. (Thayd's relative lack of southern population, the Secret Ops Center being far away, for example; Illium's lack of centralized services in comparison and the relative sizes of its districts, for a few.)
 
That said, it's not an insignificant task for our artists to rework major models that make up the layout of each city. It's something we'd love to tackle at some point, but it may take a while to have the time to wrangle something that big. :) In the meantime, Drop 4 is bringing with it new city tour quests that are a bit more comprehensive than the old ones and take you on a bike tour around the whole place, showing you all the major districts and features, which should help folks know where to go.
 
But hey, while we're having a discussion about it, tell me what grinds your gears about the capital layouts. It's good info to have!	
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Well my main gripe out Thayd is its navigation. 
 
There is just so many places that you don't need to venture to. 
 
The Alchemist zone is winding tunnels just to get you back to the main hub. Apart from a challenge and other once in a game things, its pointless. All it does it just makes the journey longer. Not saying get rid, but at least make the passages more direct etc. 
 
Thayd, in general is just far too big for what it is needed for. 3 quarters of it are just not used. I think because our main hub is at the north east just makes folk stick to that area and the surrounding. If the hub was set in the middle then folk would possibly radiate out around it.
 
For a new player to Thayd, it is a massive headache. I remember my first time there. I was so overwhelmed that I didn't go back there for ages. I kept just putting it off and putting it off. I'm there all the time now, but It is very "oh my god" where do I go.
 
Sadly i've never been to the dommy capital so can't comment. 	
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I'm dubious about Illium's design factoring in significantly to Dominion population. That said, there are a number of things I'd love to do to change up the flow of both cities and make them more convenient for all. I am extremely familiar with areas where both of them need to improve, and there are different issues to solve for each of them. (Thayd's relative lack of southern population, the Secret Ops Center being far away, for example; Illium's lack of centralized services in comparison and the relative sizes of its districts, for a few.)
 
That said, it's not an insignificant task for our artists to rework major models that make up the layout of each city. It's something we'd love to tackle at some point, but it may take a while to have the time to wrangle something that big. :) In the meantime, Drop 4 is bringing with it new city tour quests that are a bit more comprehensive than the old ones and take you on a bike tour around the whole place, showing you all the major districts and features, which should help folks know where to go.
 
But hey, while we're having a discussion about it, tell me what grinds your gears about the capital layouts. It's good info to have!
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			I just want to point out that having "unused" space is NOT A BAD THING! In fact, it is absolutely vital for roleplayers, so... whenever you do get around to restructuring the cities, please keep those things intact. We need to be able to have places removed from the main "hubs" of activity. We need a variety of city locales. We need that "empty" space!	
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But hey, while we're having a discussion about it, tell me what grinds your gears about the capital layouts. It's good info to have!
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Personally Caydiem, I think there needs to be more 'useful' NPC's around. For example, the bank (personal) near the crafting area in Thayd is always mobbed.
 
So I would like to see more banks, mailboxes ,GB's and crafting areas.
 
And while I'm at it....why doesn't my house come with mail service?? 	
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And while I'm at it....why doesn't my house come with mail service?? 
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Couple things:
 
There are three banks/AH/CXs in each city currently. The reason why Thayd's northern bank is mobbed is that it's the most convenient to both trade and travel. If you're not into the crowd right now, you can head to Fortune's Ground or Arborian Gardens. That said, yes, this is one of the issues on my list. ;)
 
Naunet, don't worry about eliminating space for role play. This is something I'm very familiar with and I wouldn't ditch. Centralized gathering social space is important for folks!	
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You can buy a mailbox for your house, place it as decor and functions as an open world mailbox just the same.  
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Couple things:
 
There are three banks/AH/CXs in each city currently. 
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And while I'm at it....why doesn't my house come with mail service?? 
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You can buy a mailbox for your house, place it as decor and functions as an open world mailbox just the same.
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There are three banks/AH/CXs in each city currently. The reason why Thayd's northern bank is mobbed is that it's the most convenient to both trade and travel. If you're not into the crowd right now, you can head to Fortune's Ground or Arborian Gardens. That said, yes, this is one of the issues on my list. 
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But hey, while we're having a discussion about it, tell me what grinds your gears about the capital layouts. It's good info to have!
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To improve the look of Thayd, as well as the ease of travel, I'd wave my magic copy/paste wand and swap the place of the Crooked Corners/Alchemist Maze with the Arborian Gardens.
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Maybe make the Alchemist Maze into a secondary crafting area? I mean, the alchemists are based there. You'd think they'd have crafting stations somewhere. And since there's an auction house and bank very close by, people who don't want to deal with the Academy Corner's swarm will naturally head there instead. Meanwhile, we can keep the AH/Bank on the Arborian Gardens as the out of the way but very tranquil place in case you -really- don't like people.
 
To the OP: I'm pretty sure a better reason for the Dominion population problem is that they are despicted as jerks for most of the initial content, publicitary material and lore. Even on their own tutorial they prove to be jerks of various levels.	
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Clearly the dominion needs umm.... Logic Elves! Made of primal logic they'd be so digitally attractive that my circuits would overloaded and be forced to play one. 
 
Ok seriously I like Illium but sprucing it up with more flair and a more centralized location for AH and other essentials might help with the whole Dominion is deserted thing. It is kinda annoying that the AH stuff is significantly farther away than the Exiles to the crafting location. 	
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I dont like the aesthetic/design of Illium either, sure its organized and easy to navigate but parts of it just doesn't look good at all....
 
Some of the texture choice is also just plain bad and doesnt fit in at all, eg. the building walls, unsymmetrical ground in spaceport alpha ect...	
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			Make the city more integrated with the other races, multi-cultural if you will! I want more chua/mechari theemed stuff! They are by far my favorite races. Chua tunnel system for alternate transit (think adding chua balls) and maybe a cool Mechari section with a cool simulation room? 	
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Make the city more integrated with the other races, multi-cultural if you will! I want more chua/mechari theemed stuff! They are by far my favorite races. Chua tunnel system for alternate transit (think adding chua balls) and maybe a cool Mechari section with a cool simulation room?
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Make the city more integrated with the other races, multi-cultural if you will! I want more chua/mechari theemed stuff! They are by far my favorite races. Chua tunnel system for alternate transit (think adding chua balls) and maybe a cool Mechari section with a cool simulation room? 
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Illium is way too clean and plastic like. It reminds me of the first town in Shrek 1.
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			I think the population difference has to do with exiles being perceived as the good guys between the 2 races. Plus they have aurin which seems to be the more popular race between humans	
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I don't think a faction's primary city is going to have much sway over population balance.
 
That said, so far as suggestions, Illium is a nice size for a concurrent population of roughly 100-200, but at the current state of (in my experience) no more than 30-50, it feels a bit empty. There are also not many (any?) cool vantage point areas. I feel like cities that utilize elevation for at least one or two key areas feel much more alive and immersive. In Wildstar, I'd love if the special currency vendors were all centralized at the top of an open-concept tech tower with lasers and some epic windows and such. Something really techy and next gen like the ship we started on, but with this amazing view of the skyline/incoming ships/laser tanks below/citizens of the empire/etc.
 
Overall though I think Illium is pretty well done. It doesn't feel complicated to navigate, it's impressive enough to represent a powerful faction, and there are enough NPCs to create atmosphere. It does need more giant holograms of important people because cult of personality.
 
Oh, one last suggestion: Populate Illium and Thayd with daily quests that grant path XP. This would contribute greatly to the vibrancy and bustle that you want in a major city and gives people waiting on queues or just staying local to socialize something to do on the side. It would also probably be a boon to RP, incidentally, as it gives a reason for folks to cluster while remaining active. I've been wanting to get my Settler main's path capped but I just can't bring myself to fly out into the world and grind it. :(
 
Warriors could hunt assassins in the city or, if performance is an issue, complete holdouts on the perimeters (near the western auction would be a good place). Scientists could search out samples that are brought back to Mondo, and maybe do some laboratory work for him. Settlers could repair stuff around town and maybe hunt through dumps for the parts they use. Explorers... well, I'm not entirely sure what they do right now, so yea. :P  The point being I think you folks could come up with some pretty cool minigame-like tasks for these path quests.
 
With these few changes our major cities could really come alive!	
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			Thayd sadly looks like a garbage dump. Illium looks awesome.	
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			I don't have problems with Illium honestly.Actually I'm quite satisfied with its ROYAL and MILITARISTIC design.The compartmentalisation of different areas makes the city clean.This is one of the reason I chose playing as a DOM.In fact I don't like Exile because of it being opposite of DOM.	
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For me, both cities are not desigend very exciting.
OK, there are more important issues in the game, but as far as "you eat with your eyes", a nice redesgin would be recommended.
 
Both capitals look like normal map sector surrounded by a border - fence, wall, not a city, nothing impressive.
 
Houses along the streets, more levels, plazas, something that makes an area a city.
At least there are only 2 cities in the game.	
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I think this was the inspiration for our cities:
 	
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I think this was the inspiration for our cities:
 
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			Is that somewhere in Brazil?	
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I like Thayd as it fits the exiles in terms of style (including the fact its chaotic and abit hodge podge). Just like the clean cut and tidy Illium suits the Dominion. 
 
That being said, shrink them by half or maybe a quarter and you are onto a winner. 	
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In my opinion Thayd looks exactly what it was intended to look, whether it's a good thing or not. Originally it was a large Osun fortress, the largest I've ever seen in the game actually, which came in disrepair and was abandoned for some reason. When the Exiles landed on Nexus, they found it and decided to inhabit it instead of building something new from scratch, mainly because they lack resources and time in order to do so (that's my personal opinion on this matter). This is the reason why Thayd might look like a garbage dump - because it essentially is one, but a dump that's being constantly renovated. Take a look at Arborean Gardens area for example, it's pure Aurin all over the place, and it really looks like a nice garden or a park within the city limits. Also the little details make the city much more loveable, like the Crooked Corners area. It's still a dump, though, but I hope some progression will be made to the reconstruction of Thayd.
 
Ilium, on the other hand, is the capitol of Dominion on Nexus, and they have the resources and power needed (a vast intergalactic empire is backing them up) to build it properly. Another point that's really important is that this city should represent the might and supremacy of the Dominion to inferior races (including the inhabitants of Nexus), which is one of the reasons it's so clean and clear and, well, city-like. Another reason for that is that the Dominion glorifies Eldan and their Luminai offsrping, and is also kinda spiritual in the Church kind of way - it's only logical that they have a lot of statues in the city (most of them higher than houses).	
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      I have several 50s on both sides so I shall share my thoughts on the "capital complex" question.  Capital city doesn’t always have to mean HUGE layouts. I think this is a problem designers have when making these “zones”. If you truly wish to have large layout capital areas then you need to:
have flowing layout
incorporate multiple uses
 
In Illium the layout is better IMO than in Thyad. In Illuim I can leave the Protostar housing and saunter over to the crafting halls. Hop on hoover board and visit 2 separate AH location and access travel node easily.  I can also do the Drusera quests and make a quick trip to turn in where as in Thyad its all travel here, travel down this long tunnel here, etc. etc.  I understand the differences in the 2 cities. One is purpose built and the other is a repurposed Osun settlement but I do think layout is important at higher lvls.
 
Multiple use of large layout capitals should be greater. Not only should it act as the max lvl hub, it should also function as a lvling area and at max lvl a dailies area. The unused portions of the cities can serve this purpose. Both cities have a lot of “wasted” space.
 
TBH a capital doesn’t HAVE to be massive, just useable. My major gripe with the capitals is that to travel to low lvl Exile areas I can circumvent Thyad completely but not so the other way around which hardly seems fair to me but that is only my annoyance.
 
 Between the 2 capitals though I greatly prefer Illiums layouts. Yes it’s overtly grandiose and over the top, but at least its functional.
 
I do not think Illium is what is causing the Dominions population issues.  Perceived portrayal as the “bad guys” in a space western is what is. In reality both factions are as grey as the other, however the Domion do get more negative portrayals than the Exiles. NOOOO do NOT add space elves to the Domionion side.. please.. just balance the story line. I mean after finding out about Tresayne Toria and how the Dominus were created to control and use us, I kinda wanted to overthrown their buttocks outta my coalition. =P	
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   TBH a capital doesn’t HAVE to be massive, just useable. 
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I don't like Thayd, at all. It's hard to find anything and it's gigantic with a lot of wasted space and it doesn't feel like a 'city' to me at all.
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I'm dubious about Illium's design factoring in significantly to Dominion population. That said, there are a number of things I'd love to do to change up the flow of both cities and make them more convenient for all. I am extremely familiar with areas where both of them need to improve, and there are different issues to solve for each of them. (Thayd's relative lack of southern population, the Secret Ops Center being far away, for example; Illium's lack of centralized services in comparison and the relative sizes of its districts, for a few.)
 
That said, it's not an insignificant task for our artists to rework major models that make up the layout of each city. It's something we'd love to tackle at some point, but it may take a while to have the time to wrangle something that big.  :) In the meantime, Drop 4 is bringing with it new city tour quests that are a bit more comprehensive than the old ones and take you on a bike tour around the whole place, showing you all the major districts and features, which should help folks know where to go.
 
But hey, while we're having a discussion about it, tell me what grinds your gears about the capital layouts. It's good info to have!
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Caydiem, thanks much. While I don't agree with Evade that it's been a substantial reason why there's fewer Dommies, I do play both factions and I have to say that I found Illium to be inconvenient and offputting in a way that I have never found Thayd to be.
 
It's so empty. There's lots of janitors keeping the place clean, but once you step off the main road going into the center of town, there isn't anybody they're keeping it clean for. Evade's comparison to the city in Shrek 1 is a good one. Every time I go there, the contrast with places like the market in Thayd--which has lots of people shopping--or Crooked Corners, which has drunks fighting and wandering around--is just remarkable to me. Even if you live in a galactic empire, you still need to do some shopping.
 
Like Naunet, I understand and support the need for "unused space", but the absence of unused NPCs just wandering around doing their own things in the overwhelming majority of that space is kind of creepy.
 
It also has far too many long and uninterrupted blocks of continuous building that can't be slipped between or jumped over but instead must be followed from end to end just to find a corner where you can actually make your way up one street just so that you can follow the other side of the same row of buildings to reach targets or challenges on the other side.
 
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This made me remember Dalaran, which is a great example of a sort-of-capitol city that's not that big, but that's really functional. An example of the opposite (giant area with horrible layout) from the same game is Silvermoon city. Beautiful, but horrible to navigate through.
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On the other hand, Silvermoon held the majority of WoW Horde RP because it had such a sprawling layout, which made for a lot of RP spots. Roleplaying in Orgrimmar or Dalaran was incredibly difficult.
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(Also Silvermoon had chairs, a Horde novelty. Orgrimmar had a sprawling layout but few RP spots; Dalaran had RP spots but were easily interrupted due to the compact nature of the city.)
 
I am all about adding life to the cities and improving flow, and I hope to address both. We have to be very mindful of performance, though; the more creatures on screen doing things, the lower performance dips. The same holds true for being able to look down a street and see the whole city, for example. City design is a delicate balance of preventing significant performance hits while still having a good flow and population feel. We could have done better on both of those, and I'm hoping to improve the situation in time.
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(Also Silvermoon had chairs, a Horde novelty. Orgrimmar had a sprawling layout but few RP spots; Dalaran had RP spots but were easily interrupted due to the compact nature of the city.)
 
I am all about adding life to the cities and improving flow, and I hope to address both. We have to be very mindful of performance, though; the more creatures on screen doing things, the lower performance dips. The same holds true for being able to look down a street and see the whole city, for example. City design is a delicate balance of preventing significant performance hits while still having a good flow and population feel. We could have done better on both of those, and I'm hoping to improve the situation in time.
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On the other hand, Silvermoon held the majority of WoW Horde RP because it had such a sprawling layout, which made for a lot of RP spots. Roleplaying in Orgrimmar or Dalaran was incredibly difficult.
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(Also Silvermoon had chairs, a Horde novelty. Orgrimmar had a sprawling layout but few RP spots; Dalaran had RP spots but were easily interrupted due to the compact nature of the city.)
 
I am all about adding life to the cities and improving flow, and I hope to address both. We have to be very mindful of performance, though; the more creatures on screen doing things, the lower performance dips. The same holds true for being able to look down a street and see the whole city, for example. City design is a delicate balance of preventing significant performance hits while still having a good flow and population feel. We could have done better on both of those, and I'm hoping to improve the situation in time.
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Please, pretty please also look at EU server populations and their locations in cities!!!!
I cannot stress this enough, but what works on a US server, might totally nor work on the EU server.
I've seen many differences about where people stand and gather in the cities by playing both region PvE servers.
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			will reply on this later today	
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I can only speak about Ilium, but here's my take on how it could be improved:
 
Rather than having to run around the city in what can arguably just be described as side paths and circles, movement around the city should allow one to shoot straight down the center, if a player so desires.
 
As for the NPCs/emptiness problem, just reduce the number of redundant janitors, and add some active citizenry to the mix. 
 
I know that's all not a lot to go on, but I really don't have many complaints about Ilium.	
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Okay,
 
I've created an image that shows the concentration of players on an average day in Illium. This is usually the highest in the evening when most people are online.
 
As you can see on the image, on Jabbit the highest concentrations can be found:
Auction house space port alpha
The path leading from spaceport alpha to the center
The crafting area
The PvP Area
The second auction house does have people, but not always, and not so much as the Spaceport one.
When comparing this to the US server, I would reduce the Spaceport alpha concentration and add it more to the second auction house and the Luminous gardens. It seems EU players are more concentrated on the left side of Illium, whereas the US players are more inclined to be on the right side of Illium.
 
If changes need to be made, then I would focus on increasing access from the AH's to the center, and removing the circle of houses that blocks passage into the crafting district.
I'd move the EG and Honour vendors closer as well.	
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In regards to Illium, a lot of players I've spoken to do not know where the renown vendor is, or that there is even a bank in one of the houses in Fate's Landing. That entire area is fairly out of the way, and save for 1) creating a guild or 2) doing a few path quests, the entire area is a wash except the EG vendor, which is easily noticeable when you run to the Enigma Chamber. It's easier to get into the other auction houses that Olivar highlighted on the map, and it's where more people concentrate. Maybe moving the renown vendor out of the building and into a more noticeable place would work. Maybe put it into one of the houses where the gear vendors are..which I don't think anyone really uses as there are drops and craftables. Maybe novelty items or pieces for costumes. As for crafting, I have no idea why there are several crafting houses with crafting tables, but only one engraving station within them. Also, there are several NPCs in the crafting houses that do the exact same thing. Literally I can turn around and use the Ucraft, or click 3-4 npcs and see the same items. Remove some, please.
 
Secondly, as a new player that has just entered Illium by foot, the entrance is not awe-inspiring. You go in, you get a few quests, and hop on the Protostar housing tour. There's no looking around, you're literally in a big open space (where the teleporter would be if anyone actually wanted to put one up), and then funnelled into the taxi area. If you enter by taxi, you're in a white washed area with NPCs that take you someplace dangerous, or you wander around endless pathways to find what you're looking for. From playing for a while we know where everything is, but for a new player it's kind of hard. 
 
A lot of the houses/walls/decor of the city you assume would be 'jumpable' for all of us climbers isn't solid, so you spend a long time trying to climb something you fall through or get stuck in. Mondo's house is rather awkwardly placed with nothing around it making it feel as if it's actually part of the city, and Kezrak's house is just dropped into a corner because he's the military guy that patrols the grounds. The flooring and swords in the ground make for an obstacle, and does not mesh with the scenery at all.  This is an attempt to bring some racial flair to the city as well as narrative to the story (I really hope they provide more than 1 quest/achievement in the future!), but it further highlights the city looks like it belongs to no one except maybe Artemis Zin. 
 
With all that said, I do love the city and the facade of everything being under control, but from a PvP perspective the one thing I hate is how easy someone can get into the city and just summon in a raid. The guards don't chase, the warbots are avoidable, and there's so much open space you could spend quite a while tracking one person only to lose them. 	
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Okay,
 
I've created an image that shows the concentration of players on an average day in Illium. This is usually the highest in the evening when most people are online.
 
As you can see on the image, on Jabbit the highest concentrations can be found:
Auction house space port alpha
The path leading from spaceport alpha to the center
The crafting area
The PvP Area
The second auction house does have people, but not always, and not so much as the Spaceport one.
When comparing this to the US server, I would reduce the Spaceport alpha concentration and add it more to the second auction house and the Luminous gardens. It seems EU players are more concentrated on the left side of Illium, whereas the US players are more inclined to be on the right side of Illium.
 
If changes need to be made, then I would focus on increasing access from the AH's to the center, and removing the circle of houses that blocks passage into the crafting district.
I'd move the EG and Honour vendors closer as well.
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			I remember what Illium looked like in Beta during one of the first stress tests back in July 2013. I honestly wish Illium wasn't dam spread out & have a central hub where all Player have everything to their disposal. Like their is perfect spot for the AH right across from the building with the Rune Forging. Illium biggest problem is everything is spread out to much. 	
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In regards to Illium, a lot of players I've spoken to do not know where the renown vendor is, or that there is even a bank in one of the houses in Fate's Landing. That entire area is fairly out of the way, and save for 1) creating a guild or 2) doing a few path quests, the entire area is a wash except the EG vendor, which is easily noticeable when you run to the Enigma Chamber. It's easier to get into the other auction houses that Olivar highlighted on the map, and it's where more people concentrate. Maybe moving the renown vendor out of the building and into a more noticeable place would work. Maybe put it into one of the houses where the gear vendors are..which I don't think anyone really uses as there are drops and craftables. Maybe novelty items or pieces for costumes.
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Just to address this briefly: there are new Renown vendors coming in drop 4. One will be on your housing plot next to the board, giving you very easy access to Renown rewards. The others will be within the new daily hubs in the cities and will offer Renown purchases related to that content. (The daily hub is just behind the taxi in Illium, and within the crossroads for Thayd, though the latter is a wee bit cramped and we're fixing that up in the future.)
 
Olivar, I appreciate the map! Your observation on US population spread has not been my experience, however. It sounds like US and EU is fairly unified in using the Spaceport Alpha services first and foremost. :) That wasn't always the case in beta, mind, but that's due to the lack of other AH/CX services in the city until later.
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Just to address this briefly: there are new Renown vendors coming in drop 4. One will be on your housing plot next to the board, giving you very easy access to Renown rewards. The others will be within the new daily hubs in the cities and will offer Renown purchases related to that content. (The daily hub is just behind the taxi in Illium, and within the crossroads for Thayd, though the latter is a wee bit cramped and we're fixing that up in the future.)
 
Olivar, I appreciate the map! Your observation on US population spread has not been my experience, however. It sounds like US and EU is fairly unified in using the Spaceport Alpha services first and foremost. :) That wasn't always the case in beta, mind, but that's due to the lack of other AH/CX services in the city until later.
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			Personally I prefer the one at Legion's Way because it's closer to the crafting area and more or less a straight shot.  This extends to the teleporters as well, the LW one is closer to the CX/AH and doesn't require hopping a wall or circumventing it.	
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			I agree.  Illium layout just sucks.  Everything so far away and odd corridors to go around corners with stairs is completely unnecessary.  And the optimization really sucks in Illium.	
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I have plays both factions, and imo both cities have their ups and downs.
 
But the Dominion problem is not the city, is the lore people is having problems with. Specially the religion part of it.
 
The other real difference is while exiles get a free taxi ride at lvl 15 to Thayd, the all mighty in lore Dominion have to get their boots dirty and do a 6+ minute walk.	
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I have plays both factions, and imo both cities have their ups and downs.
 
But the Dominion problem is not the city, is the lore people is having problems with. Specially the religion part of it.
 
The other real difference is while exiles get a free taxi ride at lvl 15 to Thayd, the all mighty in lore Dominion have to get their boots dirty and do a 6+ minute walk.
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Not true. You can taxi to Illium from both starting zones as soon as you get there.
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			I made an observation about Illium to my guildies last night that needs to be shared here.... why is there no General Goods Vendor near the AH/CX clusters?  It makes sense to have one with the AH, CX and banks right there, but none of the 3 have a vendor anywhere near them.	
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Devs please listen...To the OP, Your nuts! The issue with the Dominion numbers is NOT Illium. Both capital cities have their layout issues. The reason there is a vast difference in population has to due with the lore or better yet the original impression given to new players that this is like Star Wars where one side is good and the other is evil. Most players somehow believing that they are good choose the similar side in their mind based on the perceptions generated by the Devs. Exile good, Dominion bad...
 
Add to that the very large group that want to play Aurins because they think that they are kitties and you have a even greater imbalance. Hey I played one in beta because I thought they were cool too. But that's he issue. The Dominion has been made, unintentional or not, to feel less attractive to the general audience. Those who poke around more, or are generally prone to going against the tide end up on the dominion side......otherwise not...	
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