Report 326

Report #326
Skillset: Runes Skill: Rad
 Org: Geomancers Status: Rejected Feb 2010
Furies' Decision:
We do not find this to be necessary.
Problem: Rad is a skill that makes the target teleport to a random adjacent
room. Using staffsling, it can be done from one room away to pull people in a
similar fashion to wisp or beckon. However, it does not have the restrictions of
wisp (forest terrain/dryad) nor beckon (stopped by anything that stops walking,
such as blocking or any form of prone/offbalance). Instead, rad used to be
balanced for levels 99+ by insane summon resistance from size 25, but now that
that is gone, the only disadvantage to it is that the room it shoots to is
random (and that is not much of a disadvantage since it can just be done
repeatedly). These days, you have two options when fighting rad. One is to raise
a shrine and use shrine distort (not a realistic counter for obvious reasons),
the other is to stay shielded at all times when in range of rad. However, rad
lends itself to getting around even this since not only can it be spammed
against the shield for no cost until the person does something aggressive (and
let's face it, in combat they'll need to eventually), but people can be sent in
to raze shields and then themselves be radded out to safety (since it is not
stopped by prone or offbal like chaindrag/beckon).
Solution #1: Make the rad teleportation stopped by monoliths since it's
 considered magical transport.
Solution #2: Make rad equivalent to a forced walk in a random direction, so it
 would be stopped by anything that stops walking.
Solution #3: Change the function of ranged rad to switch the places of the
 slinger and target. True this will upgrade rad's reliability, but
 obviously it also makes it riskier.
Player Comments:
---[Lorina on 2/20 @ 22:54 writes]:
I like solution 1 the most. Makes the most sense. I would even consider solution
2 great also. As for solution three, rad is sometimes used in group combat and
switching places may be bad for the person it is hitting by summoning them in
the raiding group while the caster can just walk back. I def would go with 1 and
2!
---[Raeri on 2/20 @ 23:19 writes]:
I think Solution 1 would be good. Solution 2 would mean prone/offeqbal stops it,
so I can't see it being very useful at all. Solution 3 would run into problems
in a demesne, or when the slinger is in the same room as the target.
---[Inagin on 2/21 @ 00:38 writes]:
Solution two would be a weaker beckon, kind of... nah. Solution 1 probably seems
best here. Maybe add that it stops if there is a monolith in the radder's room
as well?
---[Lehki on 2/21 @ 02:44 writes]:
For solution three, what would happen in the case of infused rad, or flinging at
somebody in the same room? Solution 1 seems to be the best choice still,
though.
---[Romero on 2/21 @ 03:00 writes]:
This is a must. Agree.
---[Viynain on 2/21 @ 22:17 writes]:
I echo Lehki's question about an infused rad as well. Would monoliths stop it
from firing if dropped in the room for the first proposition?
---[Fillin on 2/22 @ 02:51 writes]:
Solution 3 affects only ranged rad. In room rad and fused rad are left as is.
---[Fillin on 2/22 @ 02:52 writes]:
And to Viynain's question, solution 1 means monoliths would stop any sort of rad
teleportation from starting in that room, including fused rad.
---[Thul on 2/22 @ 21:20 writes]:
It's been pointed out to me that besides Rad, the only tool the communes have
for beckoning is wisp, which only functions if the adjacent room is forested
(something unlikely to happen if the opposing force has a melder.) Options 1 and
3 would leave both Serenwilde and Glomdoring without a viable tool for playing
the summoning game, allowing the cities the possibility of picking off opponents
one by one without any real chance of recourse. Option 3 in particular seems
like it would relegate Rad to utter uselessness. If the issue is resistance,
wouldn't it make more sense to just up resistance to Rad?
---[Krellan on 2/23 @ 07:08 writes]:
All organizations have access to rad. I think this balances it in and of itself.
---[Jael on 2/24 @ 02:31 writes]:
Rad is not a Commune ability. It is available to both Mages and Druids and
therefore has little to do with Communes vs. Cities. Interestingly enough, the
Night skillset already has a counter to Rad called Bonds. Thus, I don't see how
anyone can argue that a feasible counter to this skill "isn't fair" for Communes
when Serenwilde already has to face off against Glomdoring with no counter of
its own. Likewise, Beckon can be easily stopped by blocking found in both
Athletics and Beastmastery (Has been confirmed like Athletics, beasts may also
use the "firm" verb (block <direction> firm) for those).
---[Thul on 2/24 @ 10:41 writes]:
It's a commune issue because, unless I'm forgetting something, Rad is the only
effect the communes have which can't be 100% prevented to summon someone from an
adjacent room (Wisp is blocked by the opposite side having a competent melder.)
If the monolith change went through, Rad could also be 100% blocked, but Beckon
would still work through it, and however small the chance would be for it to
succeed, some chance is much better than no chance at all. Given how often two
large groups end up sniping at each other from adjacent rooms, that'd be a
fairly substantial imbalance. On the subject of Bonds, it does negate Rad both
coming in and going out of the room in question, so any runeslingers are going
to be useless, but if Serenwilde needs a similar skill for the sake of balance,
I'm open to that discussion. In the meantime, given that Rad's easily stopped by
shield, it's a skill that's available to all powers, and that the solutions
provided would either imbalance things or render Rad entirely useless, I'll
argue that the proposed changes are unnecessary.
---[Fillin on 2/24 @ 14:27 writes]:
Beckon is just as easily stopped as wisp (block firm is "100%"), and there are
smart ways to make a wisp setup that don't include kamikaze dryad trees. I
consider wisp and beckon to have roughly equal potential, and that's not even
including wisp being totally bananas on the ethereal plane. Rad is not easily
stopped by shield, for the reasons already explained in my report. The main
issue here is not cities, communes, or bonds. It's about one broken skill called
Rad.
---[Fillin on 2/24 @ 14:37 writes]:
Also I'd like to add that monoliths would not make Rad "entirely useless," it
would just add a realistic counter. If you notice, there is currently a report
314 up to nerf a skill that is stopped by monoliths. Also, just this past sunday
during wildnodes I got quite a few kills planar summoning into my demesne, also
stopped by monoliths. (Unless you're talking about a different solution. I just
assumed it was monos because that's the most popular choice at the moment).
---[Talan on 2/26 @ 12:05 writes]:
Report 326 comment Agree with Thul - just increase the chance to resist it.
Making this reliant on monoliths sends up flags for me about continued
inequality in enchanters/disenchanters between cities and communes. I foresee
things like flamed monoliths in every room in an area that city sides can remove
at will but commune sides cannot due to the fact that tinkering is comparably
lousy and less available than city spellcraft. Please find a solution that is
not reliant on trade skills.
---[Jael on 2/26 @ 18:28 writes]:
Increasing resistance to Rad isn't going to solve the problem. The change Fillin
speaks of resulted in demigod resistance going from 90+% to under 20% for more
classes. Likewise, tradeskill volume is a poor argument to make. The active
practitioners of tradeskills available to an organization at a specific time are
in constant flux. If it comes down to it, there are many active Harbingers in
Glomdoring who have the ability and -potential- to take enchanting. Also, the
core issue of this report is that abilities that caused forced movement should
have feasible, viable counters. Making someone 10% more resistant or so across
the board isn't going to address this problem.
---[Fillin on 2/26 @ 18:57 writes]:
Right, when I spoke of summon resist being the counter before, I meant it was
actually possible to get over 100% summon resist.
---[Xenthos on 2/26 @ 23:31 writes]:
That seems rather unlikely, Narsrim. I'm rather curious who the "many active
Harbingers" are. Regardless, there are 3 guilds out of 5 in Celest / Magnagora
that have the -potential- to take enchanting, and one guild out of 5 in the
Communes with the -potential- to take enchanting. That's a pretty large gulf
right there. Monoliths as a blocker seems extremely oriented towards the
cities, especially as Mages can take both Runes and Enchanting.
---[Talan on 2/26 @ 23:58 writes]:
The changes to summoning resistance were made because 100% resistance was too
much. Why is something that would provide the same 100% resistance (monoliths)
being considered? Solving this with enchantments doesn't seem like the right
answer, as despite the above claims, cities have 3 guilds that can take
enchantment to communes' 1 - making the amount of people who can provide and
remove the conditions for the proposed defence inherently unequal. What about
finding a solution in the runes skill itself (equally available to all)? Maybe
infused rad could significantly increase summoning resistance for everyone in
the room?
---[Fillin on 2/27 @ 07:30 writes]:
100% summon resistance was broken, but not because it stopped rad, heh; old size
summon resist was the pretty much the only reason rad has been tolerated for so
long. And while there's more guilds in cities that can take enchanting, does
that mean you can look at a skill that's stopped by monos, summon for instance,
and say it favours cities? That kind of argument is a bit of a stretch imo.
---[Talan on 2/27 @ 09:45 writes]:
I'm not opposed to creating a condition for rad as exists for wisp or beckon (is
there one for ninukhi?) where the ability is temporarily not effective, I'm just
saying that condition shouldn't just be monoliths, which can be flamed to become
effectively permanent against a side that is predisposed to have fewer
disenchanters. If the counter for beckon were some readily available potion that
stayed as a permanent effect in the room until removed by a master alchemist,
that would seem silly, no? I'm in agreement that the problem needs a solution, I
just don't think it should be -this- solution.
---[Viynain on 2/27 @ 09:54 writes]:
Stretch or not, as I believe is being mentioned above: rad provides a more equal
form of actually separating groups that is available to everyone regardless of
the organization. People seem to be forgetting that with changes to rad, the
summoning prowess of the communes is severely cut down as willowisp's terrain
and dryad dependence is laughably weak compared to the city beckon. Having two
wispers on one side will not bypass the shield stop for the ability, but two
beckoners can and will bypass the 'block' for beckon. Not to mention throwing in
chaindrag skews that little balance even more, I don't think that the change
would be as beneficial in a balance than is being suggested.
---[Fillin on 2/28 @ 09:30 writes]:
Sure. I can't change the solutions now, but I would be perfectly fine with a
potion you pour in a room to stop rad and can only be removed by alchemists, as
Talan proposes. I'm sure that if the need is great enough, our bard guild will
produce more active alchemists.
---[Fillin on 2/28 @ 09:57 writes]:
And Viynain is correct that rad is a method for all organizations to split
groups, and as he implies it is more effective than wisp and beckon. That's what
this report is about: rad is more effective, to the point of absurdity I
daresay. However, I disagree on the notion that a nerf to rad targets the
summoning capabilities of communes more. Wisp is by no means a gimp skill as
Viynain claims. It's arguably overpowered on the ethereal plane, and still quite
useful outside of it. For example, wisp is not stopped by prone or offbalance,
so you can use it to pick off someone who's actively fighting (something beckon
has no hope of doing). While it can be soundly defeated with terrain change,
beckon is by no means harder to stop. Block firm is 100% and available to
absolutely everyone, since the skill is included in beastmastery. Even if you
don't have that, sitting is 100% effective for beckon from any direction, and if
you need to stand up and do something, you can do that since beckon won't work
while you're off balance! Same goes for chaindrag; unlike rad, you're actually
safe doing an action that breaks shield because it can't grab you while you're
off balance.
---[Fillin on 2/28 @ 10:15 writes]:
Lastly, I'm having a bit of a hard time understanding how Glomdoring guild
envoys can argue so strongly against something that stops rad in a room when
Glomdoring actually already has just that (Bonds in Night). Perhaps it's also
inappropriate that Bonds stops rad? I personally disagree and think counters for
rad are a good thing (though of course one that's exclusive to just one org
isn't going to suffice for everyone). However, if this report is rejected (god
help us), I can only assume that these same Glomdoring envoys will stick to
their guns and argue just as strongly that Bonds should not stop rad.
---[Xenthos on 2/28 @ 15:21 writes]:
I'm seeing you making a sweeping statement that doesn't seem to have a huge
basis in fact, Ceren. We, as envoys, are arguing against Monoliths being a
blocker. We actually suggested some other things that could be used as
blockers, or as resistance-uppers, or what have you. I'm seeing a large amount
of opposition to Monolith sigils being the stop, for what are (I feel) quite
obvious reasons. Trying to paint that as sweeping opposition to any change
seems kind of weird.
---[Fillin on 2/28 @ 20:53 writes]:
I'm confused. I never said there was outright opposition to all ideas. In fact,
I quite like Talan's anti-rad potion idea!
---[Xenthos on 2/28 @ 22:32 writes]:
You stated the following in your most recent comment: "Lastly, I'm having a bit
of a hard time understanding how Glomdoring guild envoys can argue so strongly
against something that stops rad in a room when Glomdoring actually already has
just that (Bonds in Night)." Especially as the only opposition really seems to
be to Monolith, where the reasons were already explained for that opposition.
There is an opposition to ideas that seem unfair, you are correct-- so, perhaps
you did not mean this statement, and you really do understand? Regardless-- I
don't think that the solution should be Monoliths. Period. There are other
ideas to work with. (However, I'm also not of the opinion that it would be all
that fair for it to be a skill restricted solely to alchemists, since it is
rather unfair in the opposite direction).
---[Fillin on 2/28 @ 22:56 writes]:
Still don't understand. You quoted me saying I don't understand how you can be
against monoliths stopping rad unless you're also against Bonds stopping it. How
does that equal me saying there is opposition to all rad nerfs, and why is that
even relevant to begin with?