Report 1407

Report #1407
Skillset: Nihilism Skill: Thralls
 Org: Nihilists Status: Completed Nov 2015
Furies' Decision:
Approved for solution 2. Due to the way mob attacks work, option C isn't
particularly viable (at least, not without running into balance issues), but I'd
be interested in a report for separate and active angel/demon balances.
Problem: The aim of this report is to make guardian thralls more reliable and
easier to use in combat. Since these are fairly minor "quality of life" changes,
I'm including them here as a list in an effort not to clutter the report system.
The problems we are addressing are: #1 For quite some time, guardians in groups
have had to use their thrall's ID numbers to order their personal one, and these
ID numbers change with each summoning of the thrall. #2 Invest has an
equilibrium cost that makes it a less viable option in combat. #3 Thralls do not
attack immediately when ordered to, but are instead on an invisible timer that
begins when they are summoned (like Wiccan fae). This makes it difficult to use
pact powers through thralls in combos.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #1: A) The syntax THRALL (such as ORDER THRALL KILL
 <person>) immediately targets that guardian's
 personal thrall. B) Change INVEST to require
 equilibrium but not cost it. C) Thralls immediately
 fire off their first invested power (or two, if using
 HARROW/SCOURGE) when ordered to attack.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #2: A & B from Solution #1.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #3: A & C from Solution #1.
Player Comments:
---[Esca on 11/12 @ 14:49 writes]:
I know there is a workaround for Problem #3 that Wiccan guilds have utilized for
some time, but I'm assuming the point of these reports is to eliminate the need
for workarounds, yes? If a solution to this problem is put in place, it should
be applied to fae as well.
---[Shedrin on 11/13 @ 15:43 writes]:
I agree with A and B. B would be a significant usability increase that's really
needed for Nihilists and Celestines. A question on C though, how do you envision
it working? Do you mean that the timer will basically start at 0 after
summoning, or that it will tick down while the thrall is paused, then stay at 0
for the next time it's ordered?
---[Esca on 11/13 @ 19:35 writes]:
If I'm understanding you right (and please correct me if I'm not), yes, the
timer would stay at 0 until the thrall is ordered to attack, and if paused, tick
down to 0 again (so that you can't command passive and then attack right after
to circumvent the timer).
---[Lerad on 11/14 @ 02:22 writes]:
I'm not sure if I'm remembering wrongly or not, but wasn't there a report that
wanted to make invest more usable mid combat? Something about making it easier
to change the invests, I think. What was the decision on that report? I tried
looking for it in the nihilist and celestine reports, but I couldn't find it -
if I'm remembering wrongly, just ignore this comment, but if one of the older
envoys can remember, it'd be nice to refer back to it and take a look.
---[Silvanus on 11/14 @ 04:55 writes]:
Timing a Demon is the worst. Absolute fucking worst (Deal with the profanity
Xenthos, it was frustrating any time you wanted to branch out to new
strategies). The report that Lerad brings up was probably 819 (which I put up
for submission but never submitted). I was extremely partial to solution 1 (make
angel/demons on their own timer like beasts), it certainly solves most of the
issues, I took Enyalida's opinion on the matter, as it was mostly right. My plan
was to re-submit the Report after the Overhaul, because I did not know where
Nihilists/Celestines would stand. I still agree entirely with the problem stated
and the solutions given. Both Nihilists/Celestines are one-trick classes. They
do the same thing over and over again until it works, because it will eventually
work, it just requires a bit of luck to get it off. It is far more effective to
keep trying that one trick method of killing over and over until it eventually
works instead of adapting towards the flow of combat. I know I am limited on
space in the comments and there is far too much I could say on the subject, I
will just say that Celestines/Nihilists are extremely stale guilds that have
used the same strategies for 10 years because not much has changed and
statistically, its better to roll the dice that your thrall attacks before they
can cure aeon (or whatever strategy you go for over/over).
---[Jaamil on 11/14 @ 16:08 writes]:
Actually there were two reports of an attempt on this in the past, I don't
recall them but I do know Thoros had an attempt at this first and Silvanus when
they were Nihilist envoys with Yurika's backing of something like this for their
respective archetypes, but somewhat in a different way put. Though, I again as
before am in favor of this. Now, I disagree with the notion that they are one-
trick classes, its just the fact yes, that they are forced to use the same
method or combinations of invested pacts BEFORE they engage over and over and
over again until it either eventually works, fail, or they die. Mostly it will
fail or they will die because of it. Now, using id's is not actually the thing,
ORDER ENTOURAGE KILL works just as good, after all, they are in your entourage
list when you type the command anyway. I am still in favor of somethin like
Solution 2 that is being proposed, but that this be extended to both Nihilists
and Celestines for balancing reasons of investing powers.
---[Silvanus on 11/15 @ 05:55 writes]:
That's exactly what I meant with one trick classes. Although they have lots of
different strategies that could work, they are locked into one strategy only on
repeat, no build up, no flow, no evolution of combat. If you fail, you stop and
try the same exact strategy again because it will probably work eventually, and
it would probably take 80 seconds of evasive combat to require the power to
switch strategies midfight. Thralls in general need an upgrade to be more
involved, because as it stands, 2 seconds of hinder every 8 seconds is the most
effective thing they have going for them, by far. They are two of the most
unchanged classes since the beginning.
---[Synkarin on 11/22 @ 01:23 writes]:
I think all 3 are probably fine. I'd suggest just putting thralls on their own
balance, like homunculus. Allowing investment changes before each hit would
definitely increase the variability of the offense, and while Celestines have
actually emerged from this overhaul stronger, Nihilists are definitely weaker
and hurting (especially if Ecto is still slated to go).
---[Raeri on 11/24 @ 09:03 writes]:
Supported