110035-change-from-20-to-10-and-40-to-20-raids

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What about changing the Raids from 20 man raids to 10 man raids and 40 man raids to 20 man raids, cause of the lack of people on servers !It would be much easier to find people for raiding!
So what u guys think about this idea let me know :) !
 
Greetings BluePlasma	
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What about changing the Raids from 20 man raids to 10 man raids and 40 man raids to 20 man raids, cause of the lack of people on servers !
It would be much easier to find people for raiding!
So what u guys think about this idea let me know :) !
 
Greetings BluePlasma
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What about changing the Raids from 20 man raids to 10 man raids and 40 man raids to 20 man raids, cause of the lack of people on servers !
It would be much easier to find people for raiding!
So what u guys think about this idea let me know :) !
 
Greetings BluePlasma
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			no	
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Personally I would like the entire system to be changed where there is no attunement the gates for the raid open at certain times or when X amount of stuff is gathered and then the raid is scaled up for 175+ people. Make it a server wide effort bonding the community and blah blah blah
 
That's just me though...
 
I feel it's fine how it is though, but process just needed a bit of...tweaking along with the context of the games to keep a concurrent player pool to fuel said raids.	
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Personally I would like the entire system to be changed where there is no attunement the gates for the raid open at certain times or when X amount of stuff is gathered and then the raid is scaled up for 175+ people. Make it a server wide effort bonding the community and blah blah blah
 
That's just me though...
 
I feel it's fine how it is though, but process just needed a bit of...tweaking along with the context of the games to keep a concurrent player pool to fuel said raids.
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			Or add 20 and 10 player raids and leave the 40 ones alone for people who like them? :)	
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If they're to stubborn to merge servers or allow free transfers, this is the only option I see fit.
 
Why should I be punished as a player because I can't find the correct amount of "same goal" players?
 
Hell even the first 2 40 man kills weren't a full 40 man guild, there were probably round 25-30 of the guild and 10-15 pug.
 
This proves 40 man was a bad concept if they want it to be consisted of guilds. If necessary reduce raid size of 40 to 30. Call it a day then.
 
Something needs to be done, not just about raid sizes. As said raid sizes do not promote a problem unless optimization and/or server population are well handled. Neither is right now so 40 mans cannot work well in this game and that alone with this game being so PvE focused especially on raiding, will be the utter downfall of it. 
 
Everyday I log on wildstar I fear the game is going to make a bad decision that day, I fear my guild is not going to find enough players for 40 man raiding, and they just will stop logging on or disband, so I'll have to either
 
A~ Reroll and do the attunement all over again 
 
B~ Pay a server transfer fee
 
 
Both of those are punishments for poor decision making by carbine that can simply be solved by
 
A~ Server merging/Free server transfers/Faction Changes (If anything for PvE servers only)
 
B~ Scale raid sizes down a tad bit or cut raid sizes in half (GA can stay 20, but DS will need to go down to at least 30)
 
C) Eliminate raid attunement or extreme downsize of it and add a filler way to gain gear to GA via a raid (Perhaps a 10 man raid, similar to what rift does)
 
 
I by no means want the game to be easier, but we all know whats happening, and for those of us not in 40 man raiding know how I feel, you don't even have to be in 40m raiding, your guild just doesn't need to be to know how I feel. I know I'm not the only one worrying here. I know carbine pictured their raids being for 40 people, but they made some really bad choices prior to launching the game, and launching the game so early, and they're paying for it and they know it. What comes of this game is going to depend on how they handle its future from this day on. There is still a population to salvage and only by listening to the players of both casual/hardcore and in between crowds will they succeed. 	
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			looks like u guys have no raiding experience. 20 is an optimal format. 40 was hard simply because it was hard to find 40 skilled ppl with stable online, no lags, no fps drops etc. and 10 is boring as hell. So while I agree 40ppl is stupid decision I dont want to see 10ppl or even flexible formats	
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Or add 20 and 10 player raids and leave the 40 ones alone for people who like them? :)
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			I would say 20 only. 10 ended up becoming the format in WoW. If you started out in MMORPGs with 40+ Raids, 10 still feels small. I would only view 10 as acceptable if they were done the way Rift does it. 10s Aren't a different mode in Rift. They are part of the progression track.	
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I dont want to see ... flexible formats
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			Please no.  This game is easy enough as it is.	
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 why would you waste time on statistically no one. do you remember why  super massive raiding died?
I do: logistics are a  pain, encounter design is limited( it too easy to brute force kills), performance  and aesthetics ( every boss has to be utterly massive to be visible over the blob of bodies and  horrible acid trip of player spell effects)
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Because this game was announced as a game that has 40 player raids. Easy as that.
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Because this game was announced as a game that has 40 player raids. Easy as that.
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			Am I the only one that wants them bigger?	
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And it should have them. It DOES have them.
 
Now, rework them for smaller groups, too. With identical mechanics, less epic lewts and more flexibility for smaller parties. WIN!
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Am I the only one that wants them bigger?
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I would like to see some 10 man Kara like stuff. That was so much fun!
 
I don't think they should get rid of 40 or 20 mans or make them scalable.
 
Have you seen the kill video for System Daemon's? It did not look like it would scale down very well to me.	
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 why would you waste time on statistically no one. 
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*ahem* Let me rephrase that for you
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Because almost everyone is "on the path" toward 40 man raids, even those who never get there (the majority of players). But it provides the destination for the journey we are on. As long as we are enjoying the journey, that we don't arrive at the 40 mans doesn't bother me. And I love watching the videos and knowing that something that cool and epic is out there.
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aww c'mon it'd be so fun! Just imagine it!
 
300+ people in a massive epic fight for their life. I guess I'm jsut trying to advocate for world bosses that are more fun to do...
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My computer would have a hard enough time running 40 man raiding. Tell wildstar to get better optimization and donating a better computer to my funds and I'd be ok with world bosses being 300+
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I will gladly build your computer for you if it brings more fun to the game for you and the player base! And yes optimization would be a wonderful thing
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Should I give you PO Box info you can send it to?
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Welcome to the minority. Even the players raiding in 40 man have spoke and said they prefer to not do 40 mans. 
 
The journey doesn't have to be getting there. 
 
Its weird you say that, why have a journey if you don't actually get there?
 
Thats like setting a goal and expecting to fail. Its ironic really.
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Sometimes I wonder if I should try and argue against people with big, long elaborate arguements, but then again it's too much work so I'll leave it at this.
 
No.	
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Sorry to quash the optimism or hope for this, but this will never occur.
 
They have stated explicitly that this game is intended for the upper percentile, the 5%ers who are interested in real raids.
 
No matter what the outcry, they will not cave to this (thankfully so, as 10s are stupid)	
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			The super short answer to this is, if anything Carbine will stop making 40 man raids and just work on smaller size raids in the future. But the odds of them retuning the current 40 man raid are close to 0. It would likely be too much work to justify the resources. Better to spend those resources making something new.	
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Sorry to quash the optimism or hope for this, but this will never occur.
 
They have stated explicitly that this game is intended for the upper percentile, the 5%ers who are interested in real raids.
 
No matter what the outcry, they will not cave to this (thankfully so, as 10s are stupid)
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Sorry to quash the optimism or hope for this, but this will never occur.
 
They have stated explicitly that this game is intended for the upper percentile, the 5%ers who are interested in real raids.
 
No matter what the outcry, they will not cave to this (thankfully so, as 10s are stupid)
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Then I hope that 5% will keep ncsoft happy long enough to afford having wildstar onboard and wildstar to live.
 
You'd literally be looking at maybe 1 or 2 servers and that alone is expensive. 
 
Server merges or free server transfers need to happen as an alternative if they're going to be stubborn about this. 
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As long as there is content for the non 5%, other people will play. They didn't say they were ONLY making content for the 5%.
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Lets be fair, alot of people came for the pvp. The pvp turned out to be a huge flop, alot left for pvp. So you can't count on a big population to help with pvp.
 
Then lets look at housing fanatics, maybe 1-2% max as their goal. And then everyone else maybe 3-4%. This is completely guessing.
 
So you have the PvE (non-raiding) population, which is maybe 5%, then the 1-2% for housing, and the 3-4% of other players who are just rotating in & out, then the 5% of raiding population that do more than just outside PvE. 
 
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I am fairly certain that the vast majority of the playerbase for W* did not come for the PvP. And Frankly I'm just going to put this out there; the PvP playerbase is weak and very small in the MMO community. They couldn't even keep what was arguably the best PvP MMO ever made afloat (WAR).
 
This game (W*) was developed and intended for PvE players; with additional PvP opportunities. It was never designed to be a game where 84% of it's base was PvP nuts.
 
(This all coming from a MMO PvP'r who played WAR till the end)
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I never said those missing %'s were pvp players, but a large portion of them were. 
 
It probably was understood that way due to my poor mis-wording.
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Am I the only one that wants them bigger?
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Because the journey is fun :)
 
It's not ironic at all. Life is best experience as a journey, not an arrival.
 
What I've read from raiders is that 40 mans are great. Yes, there's that big long thread over in raids. I don't know that that represents the general consensus though.
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 why would you waste time on statistically no one. do you remember why super massive raiding died?
I do: logistics are a pain, encounter design is limited( it too easy to brute force kills), performance and aesthetics ( every boss has to be utterly massive to be visible over the blob of bodies and horrible acid trip of player spell effects)
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  that would be great if it would take any effort at all to find outcry that the journey want horribly lacking. hell it not like carbine hasn't spent  a great deal of time since open beta backtracking on their misguided design philosophy.
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  that would be great if it would take any effort at all to find outcry that the journey want horribly lacking. hell it not like carbine hasn't spent  a great deal of time since open beta backtracking on their misguided design philosophy.
 
 
   yeah and that is a great business model if carbine  went with a  super premium  model.  there are unfortunately cost of operations that are static and need to be deraid over a player base or do you think the  5% will be able to fork out $200-$300 a month to  keep the  revenue on track?
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See what happens, is one person says something, and then everyone jumps on the bandwagon.
 
"Hey I saw it on the forums, i think its true, so it has to be true".	
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Hey don't forget the credd too, maybe an extra 100$
 
Serious talk, thats my exact point. They can't keep the company running on the 5%, but as previously stated it wouldn't just be that 5%
 
Even if its not just that 5%, say 20% of the pop right now stays throughout the games lifespan, lets be generous and estimate 20,000 players stick around, this includes NA and EU. 20000x15=300000. Then add in whatever other credd sources. 
 
Thats being generous too. 300,000 sounds like alot, but a company like carbine paired with ncsoft can't survive with 300k a month. If they were making 300k a month from 10k players, maybe.
 
The game had a good goal but it needs to do much more than just the rare stragglers and the 5% hardcore playerbase.
 
Other MMO's that have done this exact thing don't last long, this is why all MMO's nowadays need to cater to a casual base too. Not an unskilled playerbase, but a casual, less time constraint. Alot of things can contribute to this. 
 
I could be completely wrong and wildstar can perhaps support that rare hardcore playerbase, but being paired with ncsoft that isn't going to happen.
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I am fairly certain that the vast majority of the playerbase for W* did not come for the PvP. And Frankly I'm just going to put this out there; the PvP playerbase is weak and very small in the MMO community. They couldn't even keep what was arguably the best PvP MMO ever made afloat (WAR).
 
This game (W*) was developed and intended for PvE players; with additional PvP opportunities. It was never designed to be a game where 84% of it's base was PvP nuts.
 
(This all coming from a MMO PvP'r who played WAR till the end)
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Lets be fair, alot of people came for the pvp. The pvp turned out to be a huge flop, alot left for pvp. So you can't count on a big population to help with pvp.
 
Then lets look at housing fanatics, maybe 1-2% max as their goal. And then everyone else maybe 3-4%. This is completely guessing.
 
So you have the PvE (non-raiding) population, which is maybe 5%, then the 1-2% for housing, and the 3-4% of other players who are just rotating in & out, then the 5% of raiding population that do more than just outside PvE. 
 
So 5+5+2+4=16% ish population, again just completely guessing, that leaves the population thats left the game about 84%. Now I"m sure those numbers are not exactly correct but I'd put money on that being right around that, possibly a population who's left between 60-84%. 
 
The game isn't alive as much as it used to be,because carbine is so stubborn. 
 
I'm a realist, not a dreamer sorry. We probably won't see eye to eye. Dreams only make reality if the goals of the dreams are met.
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I want to see a 100 man raid. That would be amazing to see. The first guild to achieve that should get like a trophy or something.
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			No,  I am only playing this game because of the hope I can eventually do 40 man raiding again.  Not all of us are in the hardest core of guilds so it is taking us a bit longer in GA but we will get there.  Datascape HO!	
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I was thinking along the lines of like a giant open world server raid, that I guess ummm for sake of familiarity could be equated to a more elaborate version of when the gates of Ahn'Qiraj opened OR have encouraged capital city invasions! Something really epic feeling
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( it too easy to brute force kills)
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What about changing the Raids from 20 man raids to 10 man raids and 40 man raids to 20 man raids, cause of the lack of people on servers !
It would be much easier to find people for raiding!
So what u guys think about this idea let me know :) !
 
Greetings BluePlasma
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Youre acting as if only its the 5% who are playing the game right now.
 
Right now, it is nowhere close to that.
 
There will always be a fan base for this great game.
 
Cheers
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  that would be great if it would take any effort at all to find outcry that the journey want horribly lacking. hell it not like carbine hasn't spent  a great deal of time since open beta backtracking on their misguided design philosophy.
 
 
   yeah and that is a great business model if carbine  went with a  super premium  model.  there are unfortunately cost of operations that are static and need to be deraid over a player base or do you think the  5% will be able to fork out $200-$300 a month to  keep the  revenue on track?
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EVE Online survived just ten years ago on 25k subscriptions  Carbine's not Blizzard.  I don't think we can really judge "successs" that way.
 
Nor is it a good idea.  Good ideas you recommend should be good ideas with ten thousand or ten million subscribers, good ideas need to stand on their own.  You really shoot yourself in the foot making any kind of argument on the game as if it's a reaction to panic.
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EVE Online survived just ten years ago on 25k subscriptions  Carbine's not Blizzard. 
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Doesn't eve make money other ways as well? Or is it just pure subs + a credd mechanic?
 
If so I take back everything I said, but what you also have to remember is that NCsoft is NCsoft. If carbine doesn't bring enough money in for them, won't they just cut them? Then what happens to carbine? Do they just disappear or do they operate independently?
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Pretty much.  They have a sort of cash shop on another currency (called AUR), which I think makes extra money selling cosmetic items.  That was launched lately.
 
Really, what does a game need to operate?  Servers, electricity, pay the developers, etc.  Making the game is expensive as an investment, but to run a game is pretty profitable.  FFXI, low as its sub numbers have kind of always been, is the most profitable FF game ever.
 
Of course, that bumps into this...
 
 
 
Which is true.  Carbine's fine, the game is almost certainly profitable, but how much does NCSoft want and how much do they consider "successful"?  We don't know.  I've said it a couple times, but NCSoft may not consider profitable to be profitable enough at 2-3 million subs by years' end.  They may be in for the long term.  We don't know.  I'm kind of worried they'll drop into the forums and start taking us seriously.  I don't mind that Carbine listens, but I really don't want NCSoft to think the game is beyond coming back.  They're the ones with the axe, and they get to set the bar.
 
Honestly, though, if it wasn't for NCSoft, I'd completely have no issues with Carbine running the game as they have.  CCP didn't just make money, they made the 6th most profitable MMORPG in the world last year with 500k subs, and they've been profitable enough to fund two further games and their since cancelled World of Darkness MMORPG.  Plus my character name is on that rock in Iceland they built to their own egos.  MMORPGs, after initial development, are very profitable even with less than a million subs.
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Ok so in that, can NCsoft let go of carbine and will carbine be able to hold onto wildstar assuming profit is made?
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how much does NCSoft want and how much do they consider "successful"?  We don't know.  I've said it a couple times, but NCSoft may not consider profitable to be profitable enough at 2-3 million subs by years' end.  They may be in for the long term.  We don't know.  I'm kind of worried they'll drop into the forums and start taking us seriously.  I don't mind that Carbine listens, but I really don't want NCSoft to think the game is beyond coming back.  They're the ones with the axe, and they get to set the bar.
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In theory, yes.  In practice, I doubt they'll do it that way.  If Wildstar fails, NCSoft will pull the plug or restaff Carbine with yes men and make the game into a cash shop machine.  If Wildstar succeeds to their liking, they'll keep it going.  But the City of Heroes debacle proves they're willing to pull the plug on a game and sit on the license, which would likely be Wildstar's fate if they don't think it'll live on as a F2P game that requires a lot of microtransactions.
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Hm, do you really think that Wildstar is going to have even one million subs by years' end, let alone two or three million? FFXIV has two million, but that's from a longstanding, well-beloved IP, and they have a monopoly on PS console MMO players, advantages Wildstar does not have and is not going to have. Also, they had the opportunity to make all their screw ups and start over and were able to come back, begging hat in hand, to get another chance to do it right. I'm not sure Wildstar will get this kind of a chance, though it would be utterly fascinating to see what Carbine would come up with if they did!
 
In any case I think expecting even a million subs by year's end is wildly optimistic. You might hit 500k if you count all the CREDD sales as "subs", which they are in terms of bottom line. (Not in terms of actual player participation, in most cases, but NCSoft could care less about that, probably.)  
 
And I don't think you need to worry about NCSoft looking at the forums; they have professionals with access to real data and high-powered financial forecasting software. That's how they knew to downgrade Wildstar's expected initial take from 35 mil to 25 mil, and they came very close to hitting the exact amount Wildstar brought in.  You can bet that what NCSoft is looking at are real numbers laid out lovingly in detailed worksheets by their financial investment people.  They could care less what we players on the forums think or say.  They'll be looking at the trendlines on their spreadsheets, and that's what will matter. Period. 
 
As a side note, they probably do have people keeping a loose eye on the game's overall buzz, but that's just a small piece of the puzzle, usually used to estimate if the trendlines are likely to change in the near future. It doesn't matter next to the actual business done. 
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To be fair if wildstar went f2p that honestly wouldn't be a bad decision. 
 
Will it gate alot of content behind a paywall? Yes, but I've always though wildstar could benefit from it. Do it somewhat similar to rift. If we ever see future expansions/classes gate those behind a paywall, but keep the base game free, put special decor items in the cash shop, exp/prestige/rep flasks that would increase gain. Etc etc. Wildstar always felt off with a sub model, but its whatever, Id probably pay the same amount if not more on a f2p game with a cash shop.
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I don't think you could be more wrong.  If you think "Gated" content is bad now, just wait until you get to deal with the current gear system as it is or pay real cash to get the gear.  That's how those games work and generate money.
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			Okay... I'm gonna say this please don't pelt me. WoW did one thing right in MoP... Flex raiding. More games need to adopt this system. That fact that difficulty scales to the number of people is amazing. Though I'd like to see it get harder the less people you have my 2¢	
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Hey everyone,Since we've already got several active discussions about this, I'm going to lock this one and ask you to please continue here.
 
Thanks,Team WildStar	
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