137333-ingame-costs-are-ridiculous-page-4

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if making something expensive is hard core then does that mean you also dont want to work hard to make money so you can go on that holiday? buy that car you were looking at or maybe have another (first) child?
 
Is real life too hardcore for you too so thats why you play video games?
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Perhaps you'd like to discuss this maturely without throwing in childish personal insults?
 
I think you made my point for me anyway. Players who work hard IRL don't necessarily want a second job in a MMO. For most people gaming is about fun, relaxation, escape.etc.
 
But since you insist on the real world analogies. What's going on with WS currently is like working hard and buying a house, only to find that you don't really own that house and someone is perfectly entitled to redecorate it against your will. And then they want you to pay a huge amount to either put it back how you had it before, or redecorate it again yourself at hugely inflated prices. I doubt that such shenanigans would go down well IRL, so why should we expect them to go down well here?
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u dont own the house though in the case of ws ... you are renting it (the initial box price is the deposit and the monthly fee is the rent)... the landlord comes along and says "so i am going to redecorate everything here to how i like" but from now on you get to live here for free (almost)
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u dont own the house though in the case of ws ... you are renting it (the initial box price is the deposit and the monthly fee is the rent)... the landlord comes along and says "so i am going to redecorate everything here to how i like" but from now on you get to live here for free (almost). If you want access to the garden and the second bathroom it will cost u x 
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Except you don't get to live there for free do you? Yes you can live there for free as long as you spend every waking hour doing menial tasks for the landlord. Don't want to do that? That's ok, break out your wallet but it'll likely cost you more than it did when you were renting. Or you can still pay a rent too if you like, but it won't help you much and you'll still need to do lots of meial tasks for the landlord..
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There is no house involved. You're a subscriber. You're given access to Carbines toys for monthly fee (or for free). Just like a magazine. You can yell at the editors to put in more of something or change their format. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. Either way you don't live there; they make content which you are able to access via sub or just showing up.
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There is no house involved. You're a subscriber. You're given access to Carbines toys for monthly fee (or for free). Just like a magazine. You can yell at the editors to put in more of something or change their format. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. Either way you don't live there; they make content which you are able to access via sub or just showing up.
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I never grinded in WS. i made 100p early with the auction house (armorer) and if you know how the ah works and can predict the credd prices this game has always been free to play with minimal effort.
atm i make +plat just running dungeons/raid.
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That still does not justify having to pay more each month if they whatever company your subscribed to wants 20 dollars a month then they should make it just that. The point here is that something like this will drive players away sure you can try and justify a company by saying these things but in the end they still have to show true customer service if they want business.
 
You do not go into an establishment and purchase a meal and the waiter tells you there are hidden costs if you want the full meal, that is bad for business period. Spending money should be more optional and not stuck behind unless you grind lots and lots unless have to pay more.
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yep so the guy above was speaking as if when he bought the game he actually bought carbine ... and now the old management came along and made him change everything back ...
 
I subscribe to sky tv, if they change the channels they offer, add price plans to stuff that was free and make free stuff that was priced then all i could do was write a letter or sign a petition (i could leave but i like sky and it has over 600 channels of awesome). 
 
a service (in almost all their contracts) have a clause where they can change any part of the service while u are paying and then renegotiate with you for the price ... complaining about it is not going to help 
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That still does not justify having to pay more each month if they whatever company your subscribed to wants 20 dollars a month then they should make it just that. The point here is that something like this will drive players away sure you can try and justify a company by saying these things but in the end they still have to show true customer service if they want business.
 
You do not go into an establishment and purchase a meal and the waiter tells you there are hidden costs if you want the full meal, that is bad for business period. Spending money should be more optional and not stuck behind unless you grind lots and lots unless have to pay more.
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Let's agree to drop the real world analogies. It wasn't me who introduced cars, houses and childcare into this. I was just trying to make a point, I'm well aware we all rent our digital lives in this game. Or any MMO.
 
The problem here is about time invested. Time invested into a MMO does bring with it a sense of ownership (and yes it's not real ownership as you rightly point out).
 
When players invest a lot of time and effort into a game only to find the rug gets pulled out from under their feet by changes they don't feel are very well thought out, or perhaps have ulterior motives, then there's going to be discussions and complaints.
 
This is not about resistance to change. MMOs constantly evolve as anyone playing them knows. But those changes have to be fair and respect the time invested by players. They also need to make sense and be properly thought out for the long term future of the game. Personally I don't think the latest changes have been.
 
Ultimately all we can do is voice an opinion and if we don't feel that things are headed in a direction we're comfortable with then vote with our feet.
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Three points.
 
1) Crafting dailies/resources
 
2) Dyeing gear (holowardrobe)
 
3) Rune modification
 
All three of these current aspects of the game are ridiculously overprice for level 50 characters. Game-quality-breaking in its extremity now.
 
The fact that dyeing gear and rune modification use /service tokens/ to COMPLETELY BYPASS the /broken/ pricing system is PAINFULLY CONSPICUOUS. But the crafting dailies are JUST ridiculously, show-stoppingly expensive.
 
It is clear that service-tokens are the main cash-grab Carbine or NCsoft settled on with the F2P model, and that's fair enough, I recognize this is a business model. However, these are /cheap/ tricks, and they are BLATANT.
 
Dying is one of the main casual, aesthetic functions the game offers, and it's wonderful on its own. I'm fine with a certain cost being associated with dying my costumes. It was a bit steep with some dyes before, but doable for a level 50 grinding dailies/contracts without too much trouble.
 
Now?
1plat for a dye channel. 3 plat for a full costume. -- SIXTY INGAME GOLD FOR PLATINUM GRAY IN ONE CHANNEL.
 
Due to RNG, one character blew 3 plat on TWO rune slots trying to get them to the correct elemental alignment for proper play balance.
 
When service tokens /specifically/ bypass this, it is a TRANSPARENT cash-grab. You're not offering a service to help me enjoy the game, you're /locking/ the game behind debilitating costs unless I fork over real money.
 
The crafting system is just /broken/ it's so expensive. I am never touching the ingame crafting again until I see some kind of change to the costs involved in crafting.
 
That's my feedback. These issues took me from being a bit disinterested in a few changes to being /actively/ angered and obstructed by game mechanics.
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Actually.... you present a very bad analogy. Often times restaruants WILL charge you extra for condiments, service, preparing dishes a certain way, etc. 
 
Cern has a point, these analogies aren't useful.
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I like to think of it as going into a restaurant and having a menu on the wall across the room, you have a meal you want to eat. But you have to throw darts at it from across the room to get the meal you want, anytime you land on a wrong meal you have to pay for it. Also if you had appetizers they didn't tell you about the charge for cleaning your table until after you order new stuff.
 
Analogys are fun.	
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			How about you go to a resturant and order soup. They bring you the soup, but if you want a spoon, you have to order 15 appetizers. And they can only bring 3 appetizers per day. But they'll sell you a spoon.	
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			Analogies on the Internet are ridiculous, guys. This thread is gonna turn into a hellspiral of one-upmanship on who can craft the most elaborate and "accurate" analogy, rather than actually discussing the issue at hand.
			
				
	Edited October 8, 2015 by Naunet	
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Analogies on the Internet are ridiculous, guys. This thread is gonna turn into a hellspiral of one-upmanship on who can craft the most elaborate and "accurate" analogy, rather than actually discussing the issue at hand.
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The comparisons are getting hilarious... 
 
One person hit it on the nail though. Doesn't matter what X y or Z think on the forums. If players don't feel like it's fun or good, they will find fun elsewhere. Games are seen as activities for fun by a great majority of people. 
 
We shall see. 
 
For myself, the new system and shop has not enticed me to spend. And I usually spend 200/mo easy on a game that is fun and gives me my frilly goodies. I am not buying a shop dye when it costs me more to then apply it to my outfits. I'm not buying outfits to spend more after to dye them. 
 
Sorry, nope.	
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if the content is too hard for you/your group you have to do easier content. cant just hop into vet dungeons with no gear and expect to pass the gearchecks, even asgood player.
and you should get used to that in wildstar. you cant just go GA and clear it if you have the prequest.
your guild needs to learn all encounters and even if they are good players someone will make mistakes during the fights because we are no robots. and once you have GA clear you cant just go and farm DS.
People have to stop going into content that is too hard for them and then start complaining about everything beeing to hard, not having gold. whatever.
/rant
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			My analogy was not really an attempt to clarify- just being silly :p	
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Analogies on the Internet are ridiculous, guys. This thread is gonna turn into a hellspiral of one-upmanship on who can craft the most elaborate and "accurate" analogy, rather than actually discussing the issue at hand.
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I like to think of it as going into a restaurant and having a menu on the wall across the room, you have a meal you want to eat. But you have to throw darts at it from across the room to get the meal you want, anytime you land on a wrong meal you have to pay for it. Also if you had appetizers they didn't tell you about the charge for cleaning your table until after you order new stuff.
 
Analogys are fun.
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if making something expensive is hard core then does that mean you also dont want to work hard to make money so you can go on that holiday? buy that car you were looking at or maybe have another (first) child?
 
Is real life too hardcore for you too so thats why you play video games?
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Oh look...the classic rallying cry of those that want to cry entitled but have nothing to add to the conversation.
 
Let's break this down slowly for you. Games are designed to be a source of entertainment first and foremost. The metric most would use to gage the success of a given game, at a personal level at least, would be how much enjoyment the game provided relative to the time put in. I don't think I've said anything crazy in the last couple of sentences, but I'm sure you'll go to great length to let me know if for some weird reason you think otherwise.
 
For a lot of people, grinding currency is not an enjoyable activity. Often the associated tactics to earn gold efficiency are a mixture of slow, mindless, and boring...not to mention they're solo activities that a lot of people who like to play these so called 'massively multiplayer' games are generally not interested. You can talk about how easy plat is to earn until your blue in the face, the fact is there's a sizable portion of the population that doesn't want to deal with it. How do I know this? Because the CREDD market exists and people are actively buying token to turn into plat. For those gamers, time spent gold grinding is time spent not enjoying what they are doing. It's time they could otherwise spend doing the things they like. Not to mention trying new things they otherwise won't, because the over reliance on high play costs makes doing other things feel difficult. Are you a raider that wants to get into housing? Well now you have to consider the added cost of maintaining raid expenses AND the cost of procuring items for your plot. That translates to more time grinding, which some people just might not have the will or time to do. Which means that these absurd costs are actively barring people from experiencing a lot of what this game has to offer. That will also come back to bite Carbine financially. Going back to my last example, why would someone ever consider buying something from the housing section of the store if they feel like they can't afford to cover the in game costs of the system.
 
So no, people who hate dealing with these kinds of mindless grinds aren't inherently lazy. They value the limited time they have for entertainment, and want to get the most value from that time. If a game is only fun some of the time, it's arguably failing at its intended purpose.
 
I've played games where getting loot drops feels like a punishment due to the associated cost of equipping those items appropriately. I'm happy many games have gradually moved away from that design.
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its nice to see this explained but if you read a little further the discussion has gone past it ages ago ... stop necroing old issues please
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On both counts, my answer is the only thing that I've felt is seriously lacking in W*. An honest sense of accomplishment.
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You can't have an "honest sense of accomplishment" partially based on RNG.
 
You simply can't.
 
If you get the rune slots you want, you haven't "accomplished" anything at all, even if you spent money rerolling them; you've just been lucky.
 
I LOVE that genuine sense of accomplishment that can come with a well thought out and crafted MMO - I really do.
 
I've never yet seen one game, or subsystem of a game, that came close to delivering that while relying on RNG.
 
Games that award tokens, so you can buy the exact bit of gear you want, with the exact itemisation you want, even if it takes several runs through a specific bit of content to get those tokens can deliver that.   Each player sets out their "ideal gear set" and they work out exactly how much effort they will have to apply and where they will have to apply it, and when its done - even if it takes weeks and weeks they have a feeling of accomplishment.
 
I've never had a feeling of accomplishment from RNG loot, or gear building, even when I get the perfect bit of gear - because ultimately I didn't do it - RNG did.
 
So if it is beyond Carbine to offer an end-game gear system that allows players to set out a plan of action for getting the exact gear they want then they need to do away with the random reroll on rune slots - charge me for changing it, but let me change to what I want; or keep it random and don't charge me; but charging me for a random chance to get what I want is stupid.
 
Would you go to work for a month if all the monthly wage packets were put in a hat and you randomly picked one?  My guess is no.
 
All The Best
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Actually.... you present a very bad analogy. Often times restaruants WILL charge you extra for condiments, service, preparing dishes a certain way, etc. 
 
Cern has a point, these analogies aren't useful.
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Agreed, please stop the real world descriptions, they're irrelevant in the discussion of a video game.  Video games are, after all, designed for entertainment, enjoyment, and an escape.
 
The discussion is the excessive costs we are not incurring in comparison to what we had under the previous system, the obvious cash grab with the service token system, and the "pay 2 win" aspect that has been created by it.
 
(I still like Sly's example though.  :P)
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			Doing repetitive dungeon runs for about 1-2 hours now, +6p already.	
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I'm not going to go and read 18+ pages of posts. So I'm just going to say:
 
AMEN TO THE POST TOPIC!
 
I dont mind spending money but when it takes all my money to do one thing... thats over kill... there is a difference in a money sink and a black hole... Wildstar is becaming a black hole for my money T_T
			
				
	Edited October 8, 2015 by Star E Knight	
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			Hey everyone. Thank you SO MUCH for your feedback on this delicate topic. I assure you we are reading your posts on this and sending them on up to the appropriate team so keep the feedback coming. :)	
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			Thanks for the heads up, that its still a 'wait and see' thing... As Omeed mentioned on the TheoryForge "how to do F2P right"... its all in the eye of the customer, the line between P2W and F2P that is.... and from what I can tell by reading this forum thread is that the current prices have directly affected returning players the most and worst, those of us who need to spend BIG to get back to pre-re-lanuch state.... those of us whom knew the value of the all might plat pre-f2p-re-launch	
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Hey everyone. Thank you SO MUCH for your feedback on this delicate topic. I assure you we are reading your posts on this and sending them on up to the appropriate team so keep the feedback coming. :)
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it's not that it's too hard, it's that you need first hand experience in order to stop wiping. I've learned the dungeons 10 months ago. And like I said in my example ,you take people that are gear ready for this. Yet no matter how much you're going to explain the mechanics, people are still going to goof up. And they're going to feel guilty after every wipe. But such is the process of learning. It requires wipes. And if you're teaching someone new, or are new, dungeons won't bring you in money. Instead you'll be grinding the money beforehand to be able to pay for the wipes.
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i like that WS does not automatically give everyone everything when they want it.
you have to earn it.
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			I played my alt a bit today and I noticed nothing that'd wreck my wallet as a "noob" character except the price of adding a slot was 56g~ on even ilvl60 gear which makes little sense to me since that's the same price as my ilvl120 gear. Rerolling slots on the ilvl60 was only about 6g~ at least though.So other than that, I'm going to just say players are just overreacting to wipe repairs (which I think nothing has changed on at all) and from what I've seen (after doing about 30pug dungeons) new/returning players are not even runing to begin with and making dungeons impossible without carries. The price of runing is not high for noobs at all from what I saw though, but I'm going to say there's a relationship between people not runing and dungeons wipes + extra repair costs! They could lower repair costs more for lower ilvls possibly but I didn't even really get a chance to find out what repair costs were quite yet, usually a full repair was below a plat at least which is fairly simple to make. Anyways, I'm going to stick with my gut feeling that nothing is really that different cost-wise from what it's been for nearly a year. If anything, they can lower repairs for lower ilvl gear and lower the cost of adding rune slots to gear that isn't legendary/i100+ at least.
			
				
	Edited October 9, 2015 by Naix	
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I would like to see one thing, if you are a signature player, drop the costs of these things by 50 %.
 
BTW: Adding a Slot on an 120 is 98 g if i remember correctly.
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I would like to see one thing, if you are a signature player, drop the costs of these things by 50 %.
 
BTW: Adding a Slot on an 120 is 98 g if i remember correctly.	
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you never stop wiping in wildstar but at some point you will make a profit in dungeons/raids. see this post.
 
 
 
Now how does he do that??? EG cap -> premaid groups -> <10min silver runs (<15min with dungeon gear) in STL/KV/SC -> profit.
yes you will need a guild for that. but you need a guild to to GA anyway. so this is not really a problem.
same with raids. if you dont wipe too often you make a profit raiding.
 
If you consider running dungeons for gold/EG/BiS runes/AMPS/skillpoints/whatever grinding i dont know how to help people. its group content, you can talk about whatever while doing it on ts since its super easy with a guild group.
 
What i do admit is that if you just "waste" money and are always broke its hard to always get what you want when you want it. but its the same in rl. people who cant handle money will always be broke.
i like that WS does not automatically give everyone everything when they want it.
you have to earn it.
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			I hate having to pay ~50g to REMOVE rune from a socket! And the rune gets destroyed in the process! It should cost nothing, no excuses. It's about the same cost as rerolling a rune! That's a bit ridiculous just to swap runes.	
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I hate having to pay ~50g to REMOVE rune from a socket! And the rune gets destroyed in the process! It should cost nothing, no excuses. It's about the same cost as rerolling a rune! That's a bit ridiculous just to swap runes.
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			They give to you (in Protostar Academy I guess) 2 runes for Pants that gives you 5% XP, cool, the expectation is that you will keep using that Rune until 50, swaping it through all the new Pants you get, but well, you need to use 5 service tokens to remove it from the item, since you're leveling, you will change your gear constantly, paying 5 service tokens everytime you get a new Pants is ridiculous. lol	
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They give to you (in Protostar Academy I guess) 2 runes for Pants that gives you 5% XP, cool, the expectation is that you will keep using that Rune until 50, swaping it through all the new Pants you get, but well, you need to use 5 service tokens to remove it from the item, since you're leveling, you will change your gear constantly, paying 5 service tokens everytime you get a new Pants is ridiculous. lol
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{| class="blockquote"
They give to you (in Protostar Academy I guess) 2 runes for Pants that gives you 5% XP, cool, the expectation is that you will keep using that Rune until 50, swaping it through all the new Pants you get, but well, you need to use 5 service tokens to remove it from the item, since you're leveling, you will change your gear constantly, paying 5 service tokens everytime you get a new Pants is ridiculous. lol
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{| class="blockquote"
They give to you (in Protostar Academy I guess) 2 runes for Pants that gives you 5% XP, cool, the expectation is that you will keep using that Rune until 50, swaping it through all the new Pants you get, but well, you need to use 5 service tokens to remove it from the item, since you're leveling, you will change your gear constantly, paying 5 service tokens everytime you get a new Pants is ridiculous. lol
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You can get those runes from the vendor on your plot for renown IIRC. They don't cost much at all maybe a 1000 renown or so each?
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Over the past year i've played about, oh, 7 months of this game.  My conclusion is that they don't really seem to care about (or address) issues like this.  It reminds me of how Bungie did psychological research into addiction for Destiny (rumored, I think?  but totally beleivable).  I enjoy the hell ouf the game, but I have to routinely ignore how ridiculous the gold sinks are in this game.
 
I swear it feels like the devs don't really understand how to attract and keep a large community even with the reality of having to go F2P right there for them to see.	
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all renown runes are gone now obviously, but they were definitely all useless anyways and that special is overall as well.
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			(wrong post, my bad!)
			
				
	Edited October 9, 2015 by BakuDM	
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{| class="blockquote"
Over the past year i've played about, oh, 7 months of this game.  My conclusion is that they don't really seem to care about (or address) issues like this.  It reminds me of how Bungie did psychological research into addiction for Destiny (rumored, I think?  but totally beleivable).  I enjoy the hell ouf the game, but I have to routinely ignore how ridiculous the gold sinks are in this game.
 
I swear it feels like the devs don't really understand how to attract and keep a large community even with the reality of having to go F2P right there for them to see.
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Contracts are only for level 50?
I found the screen somewhere in the options, but I don't know how it works or how to accept it.	
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{| class="blockquote"
More details please, like, what is killing your ability to earn gold/where are you sinking it? Are you wiping 20x a dungeon and unable to keep up with repair costs, are you crafting without having spent time earning money, did you spend all your money on random stuff at when you hit max level, did you not notice the contract board and it's possible usefulness for earning money, did you ever use the CX/AH to sell things?
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I apologize.  Somehow you asked a few questions concerning things from my post that are not words I actually used.  I said nothing about earning gold, dungeons, repair costs, crafting, earning money, spending money, random anything, max level, contract boards or the auction house.
 
Now, what details concerning what I said were you actually addressing?
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{| class="blockquote"
They give to you (in Protostar Academy I guess) 2 runes for Pants that gives you 5% XP, cool, the expectation is that you will keep using that Rune until 50, swaping it through all the new Pants you get, but well, you need to use 5 service tokens to remove it from the item, since you're leveling, you will change your gear constantly, paying 5 service tokens everytime you get a new Pants is ridiculous. lol
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{| class="blockquote"
Contracts are only for level 50?
I found the screen somewhere in the options, but I don't know how it works or how to accept it.
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I played my alt a bit today and I noticed nothing that'd wreck my wallet as a "noob" character except the price of adding a slot was 56g~ on even ilvl60 gear which makes little sense to me since that's the same price as my ilvl120 gear. Rerolling slots on the ilvl60 was only about 6g~ at least though.
 
So other than that, I'm going to just say players are just overreacting to wipe repairs (which I think nothing has changed on at all) and from what I've seen (after doing about 30pug dungeons) new/returning players are not even runing to begin with and making dungeons impossible without carries. The price of runing is not high for noobs at all from what I saw though, but I'm going to say there's a relationship between people not runing and dungeons wipes + extra repair costs! 
 
They could lower repair costs more for lower ilvls possibly but I didn't even really get a chance to find out what repair costs were quite yet, usually a full repair was below a plat at least which is fairly simple to make. Anyways, I'm going to stick with my gut feeling that nothing is really that different cost-wise from what it's been for nearly a year. If anything, they can lower repairs for lower ilvl gear and lower the cost of adding rune slots to gear that isn't legendary/i100+ at least.
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you never stop wiping in wildstar but at some point you will make a profit in dungeons/raids. see this post.
 
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The reason pricing isn't going crazy on the AH/CX is that the high gold prices have killed demand.
 
The number one thing people do with CX mats is craft and now that the expensive part of crafting is the liquid currency spent just to initiate the craft very few people want to craft. Furthermore, supply is going nuts thanks to the sell price being reduced so low on gatherables.
 
The same is true for runes. The sign changes and the fragmentation of the rune market was devastating.
 
The old systems were way more healthy.
			
				
	Edited October 9, 2015 by eMachiavelli	
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Hey everyone. Thank you SO MUCH for your feedback on this delicate topic. I assure you we are reading your posts on this and sending them on up to the appropriate team so keep the feedback coming. :)
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{| class="blockquote"
Or, hear me out, you could put the right rune in in the first place?
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I'm going to side with Sly here, if you have to extract runes using service tokens, it will probably create a p2w perception.  Not a good thing at all, especially for people who are experimenting with the min/maxing aspect of the game.  I still say that removing repair costs will take care of a lot of the other issues too. 
 
Re-rolling runes won't "feel" expensive if people don't have to keep repair money in their bank account at all times.  That's what the gold is there for, right?
 
If someone complains about the difficulty - "Well, learning doesn't cost you anything, so go try again!"
 
It's not really fair to punish people for stepping up to the plate as a Mentor.  Honestly, I get kind of sick of seeing "well, that's why you shouldn't PuG".  Pick up groups are the best way to help newer players learn the ropes in an organic way.
 
People usually go full-on Type A when they're doing something they enjoy, like playing a video game for fun.  Type B conditioning tactics using negative reinforcement like Repair Costs does more harm than good and is only really useful for adjusting the behavior of someone that is forced to do something that they don't inherently want to do (like grounding kids for misbehaving).  It inspires people to shy away from group activities, either by telling each other "not to PuG" or by "Solo Grinding Dailys" just to make up the costs for repairs when they would rather be running Dungeons with friends.  It also makes other things, like the cost to craft or upgrade equipment seem just that much more harsh.
 
I know of at least 2 other MMOs that don't use repair costs that are also f2p and not only is the content satisfyingly challenging, but the players engaging in the content seem perfectly fine with getting together and making the most use of the "MMO" aspect of MMORPG. 	
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you said the goldsinks are ridiculous, go ahead and give more info. I just tossed out some random nonsense trying to explain why you think they are, I've been playing for longer than you claimed to be and I've only known people to increase their wealth the whole time.
 
Here's a better point, if the gold sinks were ridiculous we'd all be looking at a CX/AH with prices much lower than they are currently (because plat would be disappearing faster than its generated).
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{| class="blockquote"
Hear me out- some people can't AFFORD to put the right rune in in the first place. So they put a cheaper rune in, and then want to upgrade it later. It seems the system was set up for that kind of progression. But they make it really expensive.
 
I can't figure out why you are still defending this. You said earlier it's because you want "a sense of achievement", but I'm still not seeing how punishing people for wanting to upgrade their runes gives ANYONE a "sense of achievement". Or how spending tons of plat re-rolling slots gives a "sense of achievement". Or how spending service tokens on rune extraction gives a "sense of achievement".
 
Look, I think Carbine did a pretty good job with their F2P conversion (lag and performance aside). I think the costs are a little bit high in a few places, and with such an overhaul, that's a reasonable mistake to make. We are making it known the prices are too high, and I have every confidence they'll address it. Because it's pretty plain these things are out-of-whack with a play experience that the majority of players will find enjoyable.
 
These systems are nothing like what was in place before. I know, because I played since launch, I runed out my gear, I spent the plat on it, and nothing felt like this does. Carbine messed up, it's ok. But there's no reason to embrace this system that isn't fun for anyone. It's going to send players away from the game, and that is something we don't want. This isn't like nerfing dungeons. It's not taking away the great gameplay that sets this above other games. It's adjusting a painful system that many people feel is giving the game a "pay to win" vibe. That's a good thing.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
lets be honest ... the feeling of pay to win is only for people that hit cap shortly after f2p went live ... in a month or so when it will be easier
----
			lets be honest ... the feeling of pay to win is only for people that hit cap shortly after f2p went live ... in a month or so when it will be easier 	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
lets be honest ... the feeling of pay to win is only for people that hit cap shortly after f2p went live ... in a month or so when it will be easier 
----
			
I don't know if this data point matters- but I did put some runes in the gear of my alt last night. A level 20ish alt. Because it was cheap and easy to do so (and I was having trouble keeping up focus in dungeons).
 
I had NO problem with the re-roll prices on that character, without donating any money from my main. Just through playing she was sitting at about 30g. I few silver to re-roll some slots was not bad at all.
 
Now perhaps this didn't feel bad because my main has lots of plat, and it would feel bad if I was a new player and 30g was a lot. So this could point to "if you have loads of plat, you won't understand the plight of those who don't have much". Or, it could be that the prices at lower tiers are more reaonsable given the resources available. I don't know.
 
What I do know is that when the re-roll price didn't feel painful, the system didn't bother me at all, and was kind of fun to mess with. As ridiculous as putting runes into the gear of alts is, I was actually having *fun*. And no, I didn't re-roll "optimal slots" -haha, I was just re-rolling stuff that was completely useless to me on healing gear :)	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
So other than that, I'm going to just say players are just overreacting to wipe repairs (which I think nothing has changed on at all) and from what I've seen (after doing about 30pug dungeons) new/returning players are not even runing to begin with and making dungeons impossible without carries. The price of runing is not high for noobs at all
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
lets be honest ... the feeling of pay to win is only for people that hit cap shortly after f2p went live ... in a month or so when it will be easier 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Or in a month or so, people will have left because the feeling of P2W is death in a game like this.
 
It feels P2W to me and I've been at cap for over a year.
 
So let's be honest, it isn't just what you think it is.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Can you "honestly" say that rune extraction for Service Tokens only isn't going to make a large number of people feel like it's P2W?  We're talking about feelings now not semantics.  Why should I reserve my Omnibits or pay extra RL cash just for the privilege of keeping my gear up to date or regress in ability?
 
Personally I like the core rune revision.  What's significantly broken with it are these P2W features (reroll cost, lack of for plat removal) and the seriously limited supply of materials to make Pure and Divine runes.  
 
The most reliable source of the fragments comes from salvaging glory gear and for that you need to have taken down the first boss of each raid (X-89 for Pures, System Daemons for Divines).  The non-class set focuses only drop from mini-bosses and raid bosses which make them only slightly less rare than the class set focuses.  That's insane.
 
Pre Drop 6 we could get the materials to manage our raid runing from contracts and dailies.  Now they've removed that incentive.  So what's my motivation for doing contracts now?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
what are you going to be extracting though?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Class sets.
----
			
I get it.. if they didn't do this with costs and the class sets there wasn't enough incentive for long time players to grind on. 
 
But the idea that I spent 10 plat just to put my GA class set in my gear (being given all the mats from my guild mind you), and its going to cost me.... 240 service tokens to get those runes back out if I ever get an upgrade is down right criminal.  I earned the gear, the guild earned the rune fragments and focus items from raiding, it shouldn't on top of that cost me 3-4 weeks of Omni bits to GET BACK the class runes when I get a DS pant upgrade.
 
It is pay to win, and its stupid.  Look at GW2 if you want to see how a F2P model is suppose to work... that is where I will be in 3 weeks unless something drastically changes.  I don't have the time or patience to grind dungeons for 3 hours a day just to be able to upgrade my gear.
			
				
	Edited October 9, 2015 by Rennoko	
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{| class="blockquote"
I get it.. if they didn't do this with costs and the class sets there wasn't enough incentive for long time players to grind on. 
 
But the idea that I spent 10 plat just to put my GA class set in my gear (being given all the mats from my guild mind you), and its going to cost me.... 240 service tokens to get those runes back out if I ever get an upgrade is down right criminal.  I earned the gear, the guild earned the rune fragments and focus items from raiding, it shouldn't on top of that cost me 3-4 weeks of Omni bits to GET BACK the class runes when I get a DS pant upgrade.
 
It is pay to win, and its stupid.  Look at GW2 if you want to see how a F2P model is suppose to work... that is where I will be in 3 weeks unless something drastically changes.  I don't have the time or patience to grind dungeons for 3 hours a day just to be able to upgrade my gear.
----
			If you do not understand why having an essential game function (extracting class rune sets) in the cash shop, not available for plat, and only bypassable with a month of play (but easily purchasable with a little bit of cash) feels P2W for some folks, then we just are never going to see eye to eye. But however *you* feel about it, many people *will* feel that way about it, and it's a problem for the game.
			
				
	Edited October 9, 2015 by SlyJeff	
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{| class="blockquote"
If you do not understand why having an essential game function (extracting class rune sets) in the cash shop, not available for plat, and only bypassable with a month of play (but easily purchasable with a little bit of cash) feels P2W for some folks, then we just are never going to see eye to eye. But however *you* feel about it, many people *will* feel that way about it, and it's a problem for the game.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
If you do not understand why having an essential game function (extracting class rune sets) in the cash shop, not available for plat, and only bypassable with a month of play (but easily purchasable with a little bit of cash) feels P2W for some folks, then we just are never going to see eye to eye. But however *you* feel about it, many people *will* feel that way about it, and it's a problem for the game.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
how is it essential though?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
lets be honest ... the feeling of pay to win is only for people that hit cap shortly after f2p went live ... in a month or so when it will be easier 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Pretty essential, unless you are going to go farm GA with your DS guild for another set everytime someone gets an upgade to their piece they have a class set in.
 
Or maybe that stuff will show up on the AH eventually. We'll see I guess. I feel like most guilds will probably be done with GA about the time they have everyone runed up with class sets. Maybe I'm wrong.
 
But at present, it *feels* pretty darn essential. And again, that feeling is going to cause problems.
 
I'd say re-rolling slots at 40g a pop with a cash option available for only 15 service tokens to bypass that pain also feels pretty pay to win. Re-rolling is clearly essential. Yep, there is a plat option for this one, but it's pretty painful to most players. With a cash shop option to bypass the pain, that also is going to feel pretty P2W for most folks.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Ummm, no.  I'm feeling it and I've been at cap for months and have cleared GA.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
unfortunately thats what we may have to do now anyway 
 
 
that said u get a full set for like 2 people from 1 ga run ... if u are pulling more people through ga to get more people in your reserves roster for ds (like you should be ... and also its very nice community wise) then you are going to be swimming in them ... many guilds are in ga for months and after a while u will collect tonnes of these major foci (thats the only really problamatic item to get anyway (can get fragments not in ga if you have a look around))
 
SO once you get the ds gear u wont need to go back to ga as the market should be flooded by then 
 
obviously they will cost u plat but ohhh well demand and supply right there
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{| class="blockquote"
Unless you have divine exceptionals in your gear it does not matter whether u remove them or destroy them ... if you are in ga you will get pure fragments and set foci like there is dirt on the ground ... creating a new exceptional pure rune is extremely easy ... and i doubt you will be adding pure class runes before you can craft a full set ...
 
 
quality of life here is not having to use your own rune fragments/foci/elements or the ah not saving ur oh so precious exceptionals...
 
They are only precious right now because noone is really raiding due to server issues 
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{| class="blockquote"
From a longevity perspective I'm not worried about the GA runs, as I enjoy all the content in the game for the most part.  What I'm concerned about is the service tokens being required to remove the runes.  While I don't have my set yet, I'll have to spend a crazy amount of plat to set up the piece alone and possibly need service tokens to remove any exceptional runes in the piece.
 
I'd rather use my Omnibits to get the cool stuff in the shop, not for core raiding needs and to just be able to play the game.  I'm torn between my obligation that I feel I have to my guild to stay 100% of what I'm capable of and my desire for having more room in the holo wardrobe.  I should not have this problem.....  Simply playing the game should be affordable with base currency and not require the special stuff from the cash shop, that's the pay to win aspect.  (Drops in game or not)  Especially for those of us already paying for signature service.
 
The cash shop should be for the fun and quality of life stuff.  Service tokens are not quality of life, they're nearly required at the moment.  This is pushing me to a point of feeling like I have to spend more real money than just the service fee, which has driven me from previous games that have gone FTP.
----
			Where are these pure fragments coming from like there is "dirt on the ground"? I think a full clear of GA is netting something like 40-50 fragments if no one need much of the gear. That's oneset of runes per new piece of gear across the entire raid.
			
				
	Edited October 9, 2015 by SlyJeff	
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{| class="blockquote"
Where are these pure fragments coming from like there is "dirt on the ground"? I think a full clear of GA is netting something like 40-50 fragments of no one need much of the gear. That's one run per new piece of gear across the entire raid.
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{| class="blockquote"
Not really getting how you're okay with the concept of just ignoring one of the most important features we argued for.
 
You're suggesting a work around to the problem not a solution.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
all the salvage u get, all the glory that you can get outside of ga and buy ga glory items to salvage (same with ds) if we have lots of smart people then they are going to be everywhere
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{| class="blockquote"
Again, the salvage comes out to about one piece of gear per run on a weekly lockout. That is not "like dirt on the ground".
 
And glory will take something like 25-30 runs of SSM per piece to get fully runed. Hardly leaves off trees there.
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Of course- we're all doing random vets now. It's even 125 from the bag with sig.
 
But it's still not "dirt on the floor".
 
(I have exceptionals in every slot for my main spec. Saving for my class set and then to rune out off spec and alt).
			
				
	Edited October 9, 2015 by SlyJeff	
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			If you all played more poker then some of us would never have this issue. Install the addon now to make millions (You might not make anything)	
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{| class="blockquote"
Of course- we're all doing random vets now. It's even 125 from the bag with sig.
 
But it's still not "dirt on the floor".
 
(I have exceptionals in every slot for my main spec. Saving for my class set and then to rune out off spec and alt).
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{| class="blockquote"
it isnt now ... i did use the future tense didnt i? sorry if that was not implied  any i hope the expectionals u have in your ga gear now wont be used for your ds gear ... cos that would be just a waste as you will end up having to destroy/extract those runes again and all the pain !!!
 
 
Once a rune is extracted is it not soulbound? seems there is a loophole to make lots of plat here somewhere
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{| class="blockquote"
You can absolutely trade an extracted rune.
 
I'm not convinced about the future of the market unless Carbine changes the drop rates for things. Right now, for every piece of GA gear you get, you will need to salvage ~3 more pieces in order to rune it. GA progression guilds are going to start off with no gear to salvage, because all that gear will need to be used. They'll have to either put superb runes in, or buy from the market. The market will be supplied by people salvaging glory pieces for profit, 6/6 guilds that haven't moved on to focus full time on DS (still working on System Daemons), and alt GA raids. I'm just not sure that market is ever going to be saturated with so little supply and such high demand.
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{| class="blockquote"
You can absolutely trade an extracted rune.
 
I'm not convinced about the future of the market unless Carbine changes the drop rates for things. Right now, for every piece of GA gear you get, you will need to salvage ~3 more pieces in order to rune it. GA progression guilds are going to start off with no gear to salvage, because all that gear will need to be used. They'll have to either put superb runes in, or buy from the market. The market will be supplied by people salvaging glory pieces for profit, 6/6 guilds that haven't moved on to focus full time on DS (still working on System Daemons), and alt GA raids. I'm just not sure that market is ever going to be saturated with so little supply and such high demand.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
then look at for example Luminai's position where currently we have no raid guilds. Every guild that makes a raid team will have to work from the bottom up with no runes being supplied at all.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
then look at for example Luminai's position where currently we have no raid guilds. Every guild that makes a raid team will have to work from the bottom up with no runes being supplied at all.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
agreed but you need to remember ... right now its like a massive lake with no water and a tiny stream so it seems like this is going to be endless but once more people enter ga/ farm dungeons then that stream is going to turn into a river and then a torrent... 
 
Yes right now it seems that they are ridiculously rare but thats because there are like what 6 guilds in ga and 3 in ds or something per server ... I hope f2p will increase that to atleast 20 guilds and 10 guilds in the near (3 month range) future...
 
 
Once you get to ds and start getting ds gear u will slowly be running that with divine runes anyway ... you can add highs at 1st ... 1 piece of gear with high runes wont hurt u that much ... When u enter ds u can farm the probes before u actually kill sd ... u will get glory for them too (like 47 each or something so not bad not great but not bad)  Those probes seem to drop the same shit every time ... number of times we have got "firm grasps" now is we could probably have given them to every single person attuned to ds (about 35 now) and still have some left over... there will always be salvage so dont worry
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There's only so much time in the week. Even now, most of our folks have pre-DS BiS gear, but there are a few newer folks we're gearing up. And of course those class sets. We won't leave without getting those :)
 
But yes, we are planning to start an alt GA raid soon for new recruits/alts/fun, so we'll never be OUT of GA, but again, I don't see the yield from that raid going to the marketplace.	
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{| class="blockquote"
I think the number of progression guilds in GA right now is very, very small. Hopefully that will change soon. I think most "GA" guilds are guilds like mine- 6/6 and working on SD while farming probes.
 
I just don't see a torrent coming. The numbers don't work for me, because it's like a farmer growing just enough food to feed his family. Not a lot left over to sell. Like I said, the 6/6 guilds aren't going to keep hanging out in GA to provide supply. Once they kill System Daemons, most guild will be really focusing on DS and do GA on off nights, filled with alts hungry for those same rune frags.
----
			Reading this thread it is starting to look more and more like Carbine chose the item upgrade business model that is familiar from many P2W asian MMOs. It's very unlikely it's going away either regardless of how responsive to feedback they may appear. Shame, thought this really might become one of the good ones but with that business model it isn't happening.	
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Going to toss my two cents in.  They aren't up for debate, my opinion is shaped by my own game experience, they are my two cents.  Everyone can debate their own point of view.
 
So, let's get into it.
 
Given the changes to raids and damage, having gear that has *effective* runing in it is no longer optional or at all practical.  This is certainly true of raid farming, but it is even more essential for teams just entering a raid fresh to have nearly optimal runes or else there is almost no chance they will succeed.
 
In the old system, with sets spread across multiple pieces of gear and spanning more elements, re-rolling rune slots was rarely necessary.  I might re-roll one slot per piece of equipment, and it gave 3 options.  The likelihood of one of those options being viable was nearly 100%.  I also did the re-rolls with elemental runic fluxes earned through contract rewards.  Therefore, re-rolling effectively cost me nothing or little-to-nothing.
 
In the new system, I had to re-roll 23 of my slots to have effective runes.  That was about 2/3rds of them.  Doing some math, had I chosen to do this with platinum, it would have cost me anywhere between 50 to 100 platinum to just get the equipment prepared for the same degree of runing that I had already paid for and achieved.  I did pay for the service tokens for the convenience factor, but it does not escape me that this is absolutely an obvious play to force demand of service tokens.  Am I in a position to grind out that level of platinum?  Yes, absolutely.  I have iLvl 120 gear across the board.  I actually have quite a bit of platinum.  Do I think it is reasonable to have such a heavy mandatory gold sink?  No, not really.
 
And again, people just entering GA or DS with gear that is entry-level for those raids will have an even higher demand to squeeze whatever blood they can from the stone that is the rune system, just so that they can survive and perform adequately enough to meet the demands of the raid.  This is especially true of healers and tanks, of course, who would not even be able to attempt their roles without the up front investment of optimal or near-optimal runing.  There is no real wiggle room.  It isn't a case of people with good runes performing better -- it is a case of absolutely requiring good runing.
 
I do believe that this forced demand will drive service token sales, if that is the intention.  I also believe that the heavy demand on investment will drive some people away from raiding who would otherwise enjoy getting into it.  I also am certain that some people would scoff at these observations and call such people casuals who don't belong in raids, and I disagree with that assessment.  Those very people may be very good at playing their role!
 
The raids in Wildstar are challenging by their own mechanics.  The challenge of the raids, in my opinion, should not be beating the investment and money grinding game, but should actually be focused around beating the fight mechanics.
 
This is not to say the rune system is bad.  It has some pros and cons, but overall I believe it is a better system.  I do, however, hold that as a required function of the game, the costs are somewhat prohibitive.
 
The dye system is another case of artifically increasing demand for service tokens.  I do not believe it is quite as problematic because it is not a mandatory game function, however it does punish and discourage the more casual playerbase who are into WildStar largely for its aesthetics.  It is understood that this may not be the game's core market, but players that just want to look cool faffing about are still part of the playerbase, and I would like to see them stick around.
 
In summary, these cost changes I perceive as discouraging to old, new, and casual players.  They cater only to more hardcore players who have expendable income.  While this may appear to be good business sense on paper, if it drives away or prohibits free players from participating in raid content or hanging around because they cannot afford just to look cool, then in the long term, it may in time erode the population down.  I do not believe it is healthy to drive new blood away from participating in endgame content.
 
I do not actually expect that things will change, just wanted to add my thoughts to the pile since that seems the fashionable thing to do in this thread.	
----
			
I feel at times that it is almost mandatory (or at least far more efficient) to spend Service Tokens over Gold. Especially when it comes to rune and dye costs.
 
It's... not really great. I like that dye costs are evened out, but I don't like having to spend multiple plat whenever I want to change a costume or set up my gear. 	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Or, hear me out, you could put the right rune in in the first place?
 
Remember how much it cost to re-rune items in DII? 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Of course- we're all doing random vets now.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
i like that WS does not automatically give everyone everything when they want it.
you have to earn it.
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{| class="blockquote"
Not all of us...
 
..but then, people like me get forgotten all the time. >_< Raiders aren't the only people who care about their gear... Bleh. Even with an offer from an AMAZING guildy to craft runes, it's so far out of my price range...
----
			I know. Just trying to remind folk not to get too absorbed with just the raiding aspect of the problem. It affects everyone.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
it is right now for you ... in 6 months for the f2p it wont be ...
 
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
you probably wont be getting that pant upgrade for a while ... 
 
so this 1 time cost (for the class runes ) of 240 service tokens once per 6months to a year seems more than fine if it only takes u a month to get 
 
a guild progressing in GA are not going to see DS pants until they hit like ice wing ... thats 2 bosses inside ds ... if you started now that would be like 2 months away unless u are gods with tactics, positioning and control
 
and its not like you are going to be putting pure exceptionals into your 116-120 gear are you? thats what the divines are for !!!
 
Edit: Spelling is poop
----
			I'm not 50 yet but f I have to grind to afford repairs I'm outra here. Tbh the hole repair system is just a complete waste of everyones time.	
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{| class="blockquote"
I'm not 50 yet but f I have to grind to afford repairs I'm outra here. Tbh the hole repair system is just a complete waste of everyones time.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I do believe that this forced demand will drive service token sales, if that is the intention.  I also believe that the heavy demand on investment will drive some people away from raiding who would otherwise enjoy getting into it.  I also am certain that some people would scoff at these observations and call such people casuals who don't belong in raids, and I disagree with that assessment.  Those very people may be very good at playing their role!
 
The raids in Wildstar are challenging by their own mechanics.  The challenge of the raids, in my opinion, should not be beating the investment and money grinding game, but should actually be focused around beating the fight mechanics.
 
This is not to say the rune system is bad.  It has some pros and cons, but overall I believe it is a better system.  I do, however, hold that as a required function of the game, the costs are somewhat prohibitive.
 
The dye system is another case of artifically increasing demand for service tokens.  I do not believe it is quite as problematic because it is not a mandatory game function, however it does punish and discourage the more casual playerbase who are into WildStar largely for its aesthetics.  It is understood that this may not be the game's core market, but players that just want to look cool faffing about are still part of the playerbase, and I would like to see them stick around.
 
In summary, these cost changes I perceive as discouraging to old, new, and casual players.  They cater only to more hardcore players who have expendable income.  While this may appear to be good business sense on paper, if it drives away or prohibits free players from participating in raid content or hanging around because they cannot afford just to look cool, then in the long term, it may in time erode the population down.  I do not believe it is healthy to drive new blood away from participating in endgame content.
 
I do not actually expect that things will change, just wanted to add my thoughts to the pile since that seems the fashionable thing to do in this thread.
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			/bump to clear above the spam	
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Hey guys!
 
They really did pay attention!
 
https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/140151-f2p-update-economy-and-tradeskills-100915/
 
Check that out!
 
Very awesome stuff!	
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			Nice.  Not quite what I was hoping for, but we'll see how it goes.  As long as it cuts down on the amount of mandatory solo-grinding people feel like they have to do, I think it will help keep people in the group content and hopefully cut down on the dungeon wipe nerd-rage some.
			
				
	Edited October 10, 2015 by Srfrogg23	
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{| class="blockquote"
Hey guys!
 
They really did pay attention!
 
https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/140151-f2p-update-economy-and-tradeskills-100915/
 
Check that out!
 
Very awesome stuff!
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{| class="blockquote"
Pretty much exactly on target. Very happen to hear about this, and glad that Carbine was listening.
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			As I said on the thread, I can't sing their praises for doing what should have been done to start with. Costs should never have reached as high as they did.	
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{| class="blockquote"
Hey guys!
 
They really did pay attention!
 
https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/140151-f2p-update-economy-and-tradeskills-100915/
 
Check that out!
 
Very awesome stuff!
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{| class="blockquote"
So prices are high yes but have any of you looked at how much gold you actually get as a level 50 clearing content since F2P? its ridiculous! on release I played heavily cleared dungeons easy day in day out and raided a bit and earned about 6 plat doing that over those 2-3 months. Today in F2P i qued for the first available PvP instance over and over and IN ONE DAY earned almost 3 plat and a MASSIVE amount of prestige that I could buy rune bags to sell for an easy 5+ plat on top of that. THATS MORE THEN MY 3 PREVIOUS MONTHS OF PLAY COMBINED! this was with me losing almost all my PvP instances cuz i have no PvP and doing almost no optimization!
 
TL:DR Prices are high but so is gold generation
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