128487-massivly-f2p-announcement-discussion-thread-page-2

Page 1, Page 2, Page 3
== Content ==
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
The more I read
 
Wildstar losing it's identity.....it's going to become just another F2P game that no one cares about...even us 
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I actually think the abilities do a great job describing the effect that they have on characters. Moxie gives my Esper the nerve he needs to conjure blades of pure confidence to batter his enemies, Insight shows my Medic how to heal his wounded allies, Brutality lets my Warrior smash things to bits with his power sword. Changing that is going to remove some of the flavor from the game.
 
I guess the problem is people literally are not reading the ability tool tips that they can see by mousing over the icon, nor are they looking at what they gain by getting a new piece of equipment, even though the game actually shows you in green and red what each one will do for you compared to your current item. So the intent is apparently to have each ability's name communicate exactly what it does with no confusion.
 
That being said, maybe the ability names are still too complicated? I propose Hurt, Help, and Not Die. Shields can remain but we'll have to start carrying actual heraldric shields so folks don't get confused by the name. :^)
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Sure they have meaning:
 
Insight : apprehending the true nature of a thing, especiallythrough intuitive understanding
Moxie : force of character, determination, or nerve
Finesse : extreme delicacy or subtlety in action, performance, skill,discrimination, taste, etc.
Brutality : savage physical violence; great cruelty.
Grit: firmness of character
Okay, they're not your average definition you use daily, but they are clearly defined and represent exactly what they do ingame.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yep, but you can't patch lazyness out of your game.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
Wildstar isn't a "Korean Grinder everything has to cutesy wootsy" please lets not turn it into one.  :(
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I hate to break it to you, dear ... but that purity vanished in a puff of fat-cat hair.
 
The moment I saw that awful thing, I knew we were destined for, as you say, watermelon underpants.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yep, but you can't patch lazyness out of your game.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
 
You're right though Tex :P
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
But you can incentivize people to be less lazy.
TBH, the spoon-feeding tactics that the industry have been adopting throughout the years have dumbed-down gaming to a new low standard.
I understand why, and I understand  how that's good for business nowadays, but for sure it's not positive in the larger scope.
 
I like to compare it a bit like fast-food vs home-made meals.
 
also:
 
 
LOL
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
True.
And when looking at the actual trends in gaming, I'm convinced that all of that is going to backfire big time in a few years.
People get pampered all over the place, and that won't last. At some point it is enough, and people get tired of it.
Then you'll see a period in gaming without anything decent and hopefully it will change again after that.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
That does already happens. Most games have a really short player lifespan because they are just... that.
 
No depth, everything is spoon-fed to everyone. It's a circular problem that it's feeding itself IMO. The easier and "lazier" it is, the easier it is for people to get detached to it, thus leaving the game as soon as they accomplish every "easy step" in the way. At the same time, people are so used to it that if it's "too complex", people will leave out of frustration in the first few days. 
 
Sometimes I feel like the industry is trying hard to turn all gaming into mobile-gaming style of "press here 20 times to win".
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Seen it happen so many times ... and almost ALWAYS at NCSoft
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Fixt fer clarity. ;)
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I can give you a way longer list then that....
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Like a full list of publisher?
*grin*
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I can give you a way longer list then that....
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The "always-on" sprint is a toggle, actually, so walking, running, and sprinting speed are all still available.
----
			
Does this game has "open group" system like GW2? where other player can help you killing other mob and still get equally rewarded instead of "I hit first you fckhead, go away!!"? Btw Im playing on Warhound server, so it's 100% singleplayer from begining to lv 50.
 
I hope carbine will implement level scaling when F2P patch live, because this system will actually save many life while giving them lowbies chance to fight on pvp server.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Does this game has "open group" system like GW2? where other player can help you killing other mob and still get equally rewarded instead of "I hit first you fckhead, go away!!"? Btw Im playing on Warhound server, so it's 100% singleplayer from begining to lv 50.
 
I hope carbine will implement level scaling when F2P patch live, because this system will actually save many life while giving them lowbies chance to fight on pvp server.
----
			
Guess I'll just say my piece and carry on.
 
I think this is a lot of fuss about nothing mainly.  The stat "simplification" is just a a blinder-free look at what they've created.  It's something that WoW realized a really long time ago with all their variations on mainstat and assault power and spell power through Crusades Requiring Lotion to the Really Angry Undead Monarch, through Earthquaaaaaaaaaake!  GW2 just decided to scrap anything like that altogether and they've ALWAYS just had "Attack Power" and other plain-jane names.  (WoW could do this too honestly, if it's possible in the underlying engine.  They've already got magical stat swapping gear.)  Anyone who really thinks you don't already have a system of dumbed down stats needs to stop kidding themselves.
 
And, on top of that, the idea is just to stack one stat as much as possible for awhile... then try to stack another stat (without losing any of the first) for awhile, then ... so on and so forth.  Again, not supremely interesting.
 
AND, minmaxers gotta max their min, or min their max, or whatever it is they do.  There has been a single best way to rune gear, and there will always be a best way to rune gear.  Some of the secondary stat perks may play into interesting AMP choices for particular fights so that's cool.  ("May" is trademarked along with "Soon").  But there will still probably be a single best way to rune gear because for DPS there is a single number that they are concerned with "Damage Done" on the meters. 
 
*AND* the stat thing makes it super irritating to craft weapons for various classes.  It's not hard to remember the mainstat for every class, but which stat is which secondary for which class is hard for me to remember.  (Well, yes, haha, as if anyone wants crafted weaponry aside from Weapon Skin or leveling alts).
 
So, ultimately, I look at it like a lot of sturm and drang about nothing.  At most (and I do mourn this a little) is a sense of flavor.  But more effective flavor in ANY game is story and characterization.  The stat engine running the RPG portion of the game doesn't really figure significantly.  So it's a loss, but a tiny loss and I think there is some potential here for good.  The question that the devs have been pondering obviously is "What Makes an Interesting Stat System?"  Because no game I know of actually has an interesting stat system.  Best I can figure is that you need to make all stats good -- in particular ways.  If I can make a SUPER CRITASTIC POWPOWPOW build and keep up with a Ho-Hum Just Gonna Smack Everything Hard Relentlessly build and keep up with a Hahahah You Will Die... In TIME build... maybe that's interesting and there's variation that a player can experiment and tinker with to find what they like the best.  And each is likely to excel in particular fights or in particular venues.  Maybe THAT's interesting.  (It's also insanely hard to pull off.)  Maybe it's not interesting.  Hell I don't know.  I'm just a hardware guy.
 
Anyway, that's what I think.  As I've always said, I'll play as long as I'm having fun.  The stats are not a huge contributor to my fun-having-ness.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
wildstar is not that type of game.
its about elitism, powercreep is how you win, vertical progression and grind, and you try to click quest/gather stuff before the other player do.
 
and no, no level downscaling.
----
			
Really hoping for a clarification on the sprint changes.
It'd be really nice to have this issue clarified so that we know what will be tested.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
But you can incentivize people to be less lazy.
TBH, the spoon-feeding tactics that the industry have been adopting throughout the years have dumbed-down gaming to a new low standard.
I understand why, and I understand  how that's good for business nowadays, but for sure it's not positive in the larger scope.
 
I like to compare it a bit like fast-food vs home-made meals.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Its a good game old WS yet a failed game. The conversion is a lifesaving event, therefore its logical for some major changes to be occurring yet as all so often this forum is a instant 10 page "oh my god, plz don't change" fest lead by the usual players and fanned by the others. Its become a mob mentally all so often with comment in support ripped apart and new people scared to post. No wonder 10% (stat ripped from other dudes post so NOT mine) don't visit forums.
----
			
Regarding the housing neighborhoods...
 
I would like to rally for this to be Carbine's opportunity to remove the faction barrier for housing. Pleasepleasepleaseplease!	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Does this game has "open group" system like GW2? where other player can help you killing other mob and still get equally rewarded instead of "I hit first you fckhead, go away!!"? Btw Im playing on Warhound server, so it's 100% singleplayer from begining to lv 50.
 
I hope carbine will implement level scaling when F2P patch live, because this system will actually save many life while giving them lowbies chance to fight on pvp server.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Some of these changes are completely uncessary and unwarranted.
The potential sprint change is the biggest one on my mind, the others I can't really make a decision on because they don't worry me too much.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Regarding the housing neighborhoods...
 
I would like to rally for this to be Carbine's opportunity to remove the faction barrier for housing. Pleasepleasepleaseplease!
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The ONLY housing barrier I'd like to see removed is the one that makes it difficult (and in some cases "impossible) to get certain reputation deco.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Ain't broke don't fix it
----
			Somehow I don't think moving prime mobs to a little corner of the map is really going to contribute to player retention.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Somehow I don't think moving prime mobs to a little corner of the map is really going to contribute to player retention.
----
			
We already have a walk you can toggle on, a default run, and then a sprint.
 
Making the sprint always on... seems pointless. The sprint movement is fast... and visually unpleasant if you're in it a lot because the world moves by too quickly. The run is already the same speed as other MMOs have their run.
 
 
Moving the prime mobs... The saddest day I ever had in WoW was the day the patch launched that got rid of almost all open world prime mobs, leaving only a few out of the way ones...
 
Having them out there kept the world alive. You always knew that somewhere in your current zone was something that could roll your butt with ease, so you paid attention. Its one of the big draws to this game - and here, they are already super easy to avoid... Even when you accidentally pull one you can usually outrun them. Today marks the first time since returning that I can recall that one of my leveling toons bought it from accidentally pulling a prime mob, and that was only because I jumped off a small ledge into a little corner and got stuck there - because I was NOT WATCHING my screen... And that is something I am fine with.
 
Leave those prime mobs where they are, and as tough as they are.
 
 
The Dungeon change: I love adventures but nobody else does. But I don't think this is the needed change. The needed change is forced level scaling COMBINED with 'loot for your actual level' - so that higher level people scale down and find a challenge, and get loot that makes it worth their time to go.
- This would have the ADDED benefit of new players gaming with older more experienced players and therefore being able to learn to play better by seeing how the more experience players do things.
- BUT forced level scaling ONLY WORKS IF it is coupled with loot rewards that fit the character's actual level... so that a level 50 could go into STL-normal, and get level 50 normal gear (but not vet quality gear: More like they would get level 50 adventure gear I suppose, or shiphand, or something... I'm not 50 yet so I don't know what you guys get at 50 outside of vet-dungeons and raids... and it would have to also give that 50 something worth going for even if they have geared into vets... like a good source of crafting mats, decor, costumes, pets..., or boom boxes).
 
- In other words I'm saying one of the only things Guild Wars 2 and Final Fantasy XIV got right about their dungeons was the scaling + worthwhile rewards in them (if you left GW2... the rewards came long after launch... for the first year, they had scaling but only low-level rewards, so people only ran those dungeons for charity or to get the completion 1-3gold, and often used hacks like jumping through bugged walls to skip bosses - so I'm talking about today's GW2, not how it used to be). And these two games... or at least GW2 because my FFXIV sub ran out... have absurdly lively dungeon runner communities at all levels.
- Even if you're against open world forced scaling... forced scaling in dungeons works to keep the community going strong.
			
				
	Edited June 27, 2015 by Kichwas	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I don't know. Define "broke." Not broke as in the current Vet player base that stuck around enjoys it as is, or Not Broke as in it yet somehow failed to retain a majority of the people who actually paid $60 or so for the game in the first place?
 
Let's be honest here, Wildstar had a massive launch, and failed to retain a majority of people who paid an upfront cost for the game. The overlords are NCSoft. Wildstar has to absolutely do a massive retention (and consumer spending) turnaround for NCSoft not to pull the plug on it. Now they are opening the gates to the masses via F2P, which allows them to jump in and experience the game with absolutely no upfront cost or commitment whatsoever. That means, keeping things absolutely as how they were when the $60 upfront paying people couldn't be retained is likely an NCSoft shutdown sentence. Carbine needs those no cost, no commitment people to want to stick around and actually spend cash on the game. They absolutely have to turn their revenue stream around to keep the game alive.
 
Smart business said the moment they announced F2P that portions of Wildstar were going to be changed to get all the new blood to pay into the game. As much as it's hated to be said, there obviously aren't enough Vets that stuck around to keep the game alive on their own. Which means that yes, unfortunately, and though no company would ever directly come out and say it (and would likely deny it in the P.R.), the willingness to sacrifice some of the Vets to try to get the F2P masses to provide revenue is going to happen.
 
Wildstar has to absolutely manage to appeal to a wider base than it's managed thus far, and turn those people into paying customers. To not do so means NCSoft is likely to call for a sunset. This is a case where F2P is very likely the last chance. Like EA, NCSoft is not bashful about shutting a game down. They sent City of Heroes F2P to try to increase revenue. When NCSoft finally felt that model had not generated enough revenue for their internal measurement requirements, it was sunset.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Somehow I don't think moving prime mobs to a little corner of the map is really going to contribute to player retention.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I do however think some of the prime mobs are in poor spots, and the placement on the map could be improved, but making little hollows for them, or alcoves, doesn't seem like a change they need to make.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Carbine has said repeatedly that if there are prime mobs on top of quest or path objectives, then people should report them so that they can be fixed. :/ I think they already did a great deal by reducing the aggro radius and adjusting their positioning. I even accept that horridly ugly red color they have. >_<
 
[edit] Love the icon, btw. ;3
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The Dungeon change: I love adventures but nobody else does. But I don't think this is the needed change. The needed change is forced level scaling COMBINED with 'loot for your actual level' - so that higher level people scale down and find a challenge, and get loot that makes it worth their time to go.
- This would have the ADDED benefit of new players gaming with older more experienced players and therefore being able to learn to play better by seeing how the more experience players do things.
- BUT forced level scaling ONLY WORKS IF it is coupled with loot rewards that fit the character's actual level... so that a level 50 could go into STL-normal, and get level 50 normal gear (but not vet quality gear: More like they would get level 50 adventure gear I suppose, or shiphand, or something... I'm not 50 yet so I don't know what you guys get at 50 outside of vet-dungeons and raids... and it would have to also give that 50 something worth going for even if they have geared into vets... like a good source of crafting mats, decor, costumes, pets..., or boom boxes).
 
- In other words I'm saying one of the only things Guild Wars 2 and Final Fantasy XIV got right about their dungeons was the scaling + worthwhile rewards in them (if you left GW2... the rewards came long after launch... for the first year, they had scaling but only low-level rewards, so people only ran those dungeons for charity or to get the completion 1-3gold, and often used hacks like jumping through bugged walls to skip bosses - so I'm talking about today's GW2, not how it used to be). And these two games... or at least GW2 because my FFXIV sub ran out... have absurdly lively dungeon runner communities at all levels.
- Even if you're against open world forced scaling... forced scaling in dungeons works to keep the community going strong.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
IMHO, The term "scalling" is actually the most logical solution for a strong community. This system allow everyone to revisit the old content (open and instance based) without feeling of being "too overpowered", which technically make every area populated, not just the late game map/ instance.
 
Scalling also surprisingly work on PvP content, take on GW2 WvWvW for example, you will encounter low level player around the map but they don't die just by feeling your presence like every other PvP MMORPG. These lowbies are tehnically a grunt who don't do much damage to you , yet still annoying and can be lethal if you meet them in large number.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yes. Those of us who have come from GW2 and FFXIV know how amazingly well scaling works. 
 
But those coming from WoW though have been conditioned to fear it and argue against it even though they've never seen it in action...
----
			
I do not want the scaling from GW2.
 
That was probably one of my biggest pet peeves from GW2 was that I could gear up and be very well equiped and yet my level was never the same.
I really do not like the autoscaling system in GW2.
 
ESPECIALLY in the dungeons at end game.
I absolutely freaking hated it.
 
It gives a disconnect between how your character is supposed to perform, and how you see them perform.
I disapprove of the GW2 autoscaling system.
			
				
	Edited June 27, 2015 by FranBunnyFFXII	
----
			
The problem with forced autoscaling is that it kills the player's ability to revisit old content and make it substantially easier. That's one of the joys of RPGs: visiting an area that gave you a lot of trouble when you are much more powerful and giving everything in it hell. It's very cathartic! 
Another problem that is actually much bigger, if you ask me, is that it makes it look like progress doesn't matter. Why should I botter gearing up if I'm going to get downgraded anyway? Progression then becomes less about progress in power and more about opening the next door.
 
Of course, it does have a purpose: to avoid making old content irrelevant to new players. But that can be fixed with a toggle in the LFG tool.	
----
			
The dumbing down of the game has now begun. Knew it was going to happen when they went F2P.
 
 
 
Revamping stats
And then there were four. If you’ve ever been in the position where you weren’t exactly sure which stat would be best for your class (who wouldn’t want Moxie just because?), you weren’t alone. Donatelli noted that more than a few players found the current system a bit confusing, with stat names and uses not readily apparent to players. That’s why the system has been revamped. Current stats will be replaced with four primary stats: armor, assault power, support power, and health. With names like that, you can pretty well tell which one will be most valuable to which class. Pretty simple, right?
For those long-time players who delight in getting the most out of builds by tweaking every last thing, this system seems too simple. Fortunately, the new system also includes secondary stats that will allow players to fine-tune their characters to fit the playstyle they want to embrace. For instance, there is vigor: Vigor will allow players to do more damage the higher their health is. That definitely changes the dynamics and strategies in battle, as a healer would want to know to keep this DPS character’s health topped off so she’s dealing the optimal output of damage. Other secondary stats include life steal and crit; they all allow for more specialization within the classes.
Donatelli told me that the team has worked on this system for six months to make it both easy to learn and hard to master, offering players a wide range of individualized play experiences by specializing within the classes. “You can tweak your character in really interesting ways that weren’t available before,” he said. Previously, every Stalker was a crit Stalker, and that’s just the way it was done.  Now, you can broaden your horizons. It’s the best of both worlds: The new players will understand the basics of the system straight away, whereas those who want to master the intricacies of all the secondaries can min/max to their hearts’ content or experiment with unique combinations.
			
				
	Edited June 27, 2015 by BusterCasey	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The dumbing down of the game has now begun. Knew it was going to happen when they went F2P.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
seems you missed the start then when they changed attunement and DS20
----
			
Hi all,
 
Since I'm the one that implemented the prime mobs, I'll comment on the change.  We added them right before launch and I was never happy with the end result of them.  The group primes were not itemized and while leveling up on my play character I noticed they were mostly left standing with no reason to kill them.  The two person primes were kind of shoe horned into the zones and I did the best that I could with the time that I had so there are some areas where placement could be better.  Since I was given the chance to revisit the implementation, we wanted a smoother ramp up and to make sure the spacing was better.
 
I've done a pass on the spawn locations of the group primes.  While some have been moved to the edge of their play space,  They are still in their relative area.  They are not literally on the edge of the maps.  I just made sure there is enough room around them so you're not getting hit with adds while trying to fight a group boss.  If we have time in the future, we might give these guys a cave or "lair" but I can't promise that will be the case.  In future zones, they will have their own lair.  We also did an itemization pass on them so they are worth killing and hooked up achievements to them.
 
The two person primes were lowered in difficulty in the 6-14 Zones to a solo boss level. In the 14-22 zones, they are bumped up to an elite boss difficulty and from the 22+ they remained the same as a two person prime.  I've also removed the red visual off them which will probably result in them being a little harder to navigate through in the 22+ zones because you no longer will have the red warning on them.  Their spawn locations are mostly in tact and if you do find them blocking quest objectives, we will certainly look at the specific cases to fix it.
 
I also made adjustments to the rare creatures in all of the zones.  They were originally intended to be for solo players but at the last minute I bumped them up to small group difficulty.  I went back and lowered them all to a solo elite difficulty and we've done an itemization pass on them.  The reason for this, I feel like we removed that excitement for solo players when they come across a named but couldn't kill it because it was too tough.  With having the group primes also out there, we took away the solo named and doubled up on group named.  Lowering them back should help make the play areas a little more exciting for all types of players.
 
Finally,  all of the rares and group primes now have a more difficult combat setup compared to the rest of the creatures in the area.  I've made a handful of combat packages with unique mechanics and have spread them out on all of the rares and group primes.  This should give you a more challenging fight.
 
I know it sounds like we pulled them out to make things easier but in reality I hope the changes we made will prove to be an enhanced version of them, making them a greater challenge while being able to smooth out the progression of them from the lower zones up through the higher level zones.  I'll definitely be looking for feedback on these throughout beta.  I encourage you all to sign up for the beta, test out the changes and report feedback on them.
			
				
	Edited June 27, 2015 by Gordish	
----
			
Thanks for the update, Gordish!
 
I thought the idea of putting those guys in there when the questing system changed to XP-based, these would give more progress toward completing them. So it offered something to group leveling (which of course the regular mobs were just steamrolled and not fun in a group.) I thought that was enough of a reward. Maybe the itemization pass will encourage more players to group up while questing (though I hate the answer to that seems always to be "MORE REWARDS!!!!") But to me, having them there in the playspace with the other creatures as targets for the same quest made sense.
 
As for the rares, those seem to be one of the things that bring groups together. I see zone chatter with people looking for help killing, etc... so I'm a little sad that they're going to be soloable. 
 
Anxious to check it out in the beta, and promise to give good feedback :)	
----
			Thanks for the extensive explanation Gordish. Much appreciated. I swear... the damage control you guys have to do after the terribly written articles like on massively... I hope it's worth the exposure.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Thanks for the update, Gordish!
 
I thought the idea of putting those guys in there when the questing system changed to XP-based, these would give more progress toward completing them. So it offered something to group leveling (which of course the regular mobs were just steamrolled and not fun in a group.) I thought that was enough of a reward. Maybe the itemization pass will encourage more players to group up while questing (though I hate the answer to that seems always to be "MORE REWARDS!!!!") But to me, having them there in the playspace with the other creatures as targets for the same quest made sense.
 
As for the rares, those seem to be one of the things that bring groups together. I see zone chatter with people looking for help killing, etc... so I'm a little sad that they're going to be soloable. 
 
Anxious to check it out in the beta, and promise to give good feedback :)
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The problem with forced autoscaling is that it kills the player's ability to revisit old content and make it substantially easier. That's one of the joys of RPGs: visiting an area that gave you a lot of trouble when you are much more powerful and giving everything in it hell. It's very cathartic! 
Another problem that is actually much bigger, if you ask me, is that it makes it look like progress doesn't matter. Why should I botter gearing up if I'm going to get downgraded anyway? Progression then becomes less about progress in power and more about opening the next door.
----
			Any chance we could get mentions of rares/5-man primes on the map when we are nearby? I think that'd be awesome.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
So sure... you can go solo that level 60 raid in WoW... and maybe do that once a year. Because there is no satisfaction in running something that cannot even challenge you at all, except for satisfying an inferiority complex. And while we might all get that some of the time, very few of us have it all of the time.
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Any chance we could get mentions of rares/5-man primes on the map when we are nearby? I think that'd be awesome.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Hi all,
 
Since I'm the one that implemented the prime mobs, I'll comment on the change.  We added them right before launch and I was never happy with the end result of them.  The group primes were not itemized and while leveling up on my play character I noticed they were mostly left standing with no reason to kill them.  The two person primes were kind of shoe horned into the zones and I did the best that I could with the time that I had so there are some areas where placement could be better.  Since I was given the chance to revisit the implementation, we wanted a smoother ramp up and to make sure the spacing was better.
 
I've done a pass on the spawn locations of the group primes.  While some have been moved to the edge of their play space,  They are still in their relative area.  They are not literally on the edge of the maps.  I just made sure there is enough room around them so you're not getting hit with adds while trying to fight a group boss.  If we have time in the future, we might give these guys a cave or "lair" but I can't promise that will be the case.  In future zones, they will have their own lair.  We also did an itemization pass on them so they are worth killing and hooked up achievements to them.
 
The two person primes were lowered in difficulty in the 6-14 Zones to a solo boss level. In the 14-22 zones, they are bumped up to an elite boss difficulty and from the 22+ they remained the same as a two person prime.  I've also removed the red visual off them which will probably result in them being a little harder to navigate through in the 22+ zones because you no longer will have the red warning on them.  Their spawn locations are mostly in tact and if you do find them blocking quest objectives, we will certainly look at the specific cases to fix it.
 
I also made adjustments to the rare creatures in all of the zones.  They were originally intended to be for solo players but at the last minute I bumped them up to small group difficulty.  I went back and lowered them all to a solo elite difficulty and we've done an itemization pass on them.  The reason for this, I feel like we removed that excitement for solo players when they come across a named but couldn't kill it because it was too tough.  With having the group primes also out there, we took away the solo named and doubled up on group named.  Lowering them back should help make the play areas a little more exciting for all types of players.
 
Finally,  all of the rares and group primes now have a more difficult combat setup compared to the rest of the creatures in the area.  I've made a handful of combat packages with unique mechanics and have spread them out on all of the rares and group primes.  This should give you a more challenging fight.
 
I know it sounds like we pulled them out to make things easier but in reality I hope the changes we made will prove to be an enhanced version of them, making them a greater challenge while being able to smooth out the progression of them from the lower zones up through the higher level zones.  I'll definitely be looking for feedback on these throughout beta.  I encourage you all to sign up for the beta, test out the changes and report feedback on them.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
good stuff on primes
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I don't mean to be a bother, but can we get a clarification on the sprinting changes?
----
			Sounds great to me that way. I assume this extends to mounts as well?	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
To clarify further: the sprint is a toggle outside of combat. Rather than holding down shift, you can switch between sprinting, running, or walking speed at any time, with no resource cost. In combat, you default to run speed and the sprint resource bar is back; it functions much as it does now.
----
			TBH, Fran, I didn't find the movement speed change in TERA to be "clunky, strange, and problematic". Also, it's not like they're removing sprint from combat. You just press shift and use the resource bar as usual.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Sounds great to me that way. I assume this extends to mounts as well?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
TBH, Fran, I didn't find the movement speed change in TERA to be "clunky, strange, and problematic". Also, it's not like they're removing sprint from combat. You just press shift and use the resource bar as usual.
----
			Thank you for the information Caydiem. You folks have a fantastic movement system in Wildstar and I've never had an MMO where I feel as in control of my character as I do in this game. I'm quite positive this change will work out just fine.	
----
			Like I said, I was never really bothered by TERA's movement speed changes, and I played that for over a year and a half. :/ *shrug*	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Like I said, I was never really bothered by TERA's movement speed changes, and I played that for over a year and a half. :/ *shrug*
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It does.
 
Fran, we've been testing internally with it. Anecdotal, of course, but the switch between out of combat and combat movement doesn't feel slow or clunky to me. I understand you have concerns based on how it's been implemented in other games, which is why we ask that you test our implementation of it in beta and give us feedback once you're gotten your hands on this version and experience its feel for yourself.
----
			
Ontop of that Caydiem, Beta test instant mounting in WildStar too.
If anything would be an amazing QoL change to the system, That would be it.
 
One of the things I love about TERA's mounts are the instant mounting.
You really wanna change how we feel about out of combat speed? Put that value on our mounts.
 
Players love the mounts in this game, This game has the best mount system and design in the MMORPG industry, and I'd love to have that instant mounting change to make it damn near perfection.
 
I could even be so bold as to say, let us mount up in Dungeons and Raids.
That's stretching it, I know but the out of combat movement speed aspects in WildStar isn't running.
It's the mounts.
 
That's where your QoL improvement choices need to be.
 
The change to allow ground mounts to double jump, was a great idea.
Carbine can take it one step further and make mounts instant cast out of combat.
You can be running/sprinting, tap your mount button, instantly on your mount, and there you go.
That would be fantastic.
 
Edit: I can go make a video real quick if you'd like a live example.
Here's a video of the instant mounting in TERA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETu7Sm4Q3EI
 
 
{| class="blockquote"
This is true... I like the feeling of movement even just out in the wild, so if it's a "toggle" we'll lose that feeling, I think. Maybe we just need a "toggle" between "old way" and "new way" overall.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I will note, however, that I'm a little disappointed that in new zones, the prime mobs will be relegated to separate "lairs".
----
			Any info of how long you'll keep beta open?	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
To clarify further: the sprint is a toggle outside of combat. Rather than holding down shift, you can switch between sprinting, running, or walking speed at any time, with no resource cost. In combat, you default to run speed and the sprint resource bar is back; it functions much as it does now.
 
I know there are some strong opinions about this change. I highly recommend you sign up for beta if you haven't yet in order to get a feel for how it works in WildStar. Give it a fair shake once beta begins and let us know your feelings about it.
----
			
Further more when it comes to the sprint change potential.
I didn't even think about this until someone else mentioned it.
If World PVP ever comes back, Always on sprint is going to end up being an issue with open world PVP as well.
 
Since we fall out of combat in BGs this will end up affecting BGs as well unless they specifically drop the affect from BG play.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
When we talk about lairs, were talking about a one room cave for the group primes.  We're not talking about the two man primes that you find mixed into the play spaces. That should remain how it currently is.  Granted, things could always change direction in the future but for now this is our intentions.
----
			
 
{| class="blockquote"
  I've also removed the red visual off them which will probably result in them being a little harder to navigate through in the 22+ zones because you no longer will have the red warning on them.  
 
----
			
um, we got mount (even super cheap one for lowbies) that make traveling way much easier.
 
Instead of implementing unlimited sprint, how about you put that concept on mount (make it part of main quest for lowbies so all of them will get mount at starter zone asap). Make it activable after couple second by hitting shift button, plus it is not even game-breaking at all.
 
Also please-please-please dev dudes, you guys need to look at level scalling system. It is currently The Best System that increase the replayability while also strengthen the community. Most people who don't like the system are either never try it (or not even bother using mentoring system), or just happy to 1 shot lowbies or 1 man low level dungeon which actually aren't rewarding at all.
 
Wildstar already got Mentor system, all you need is to expand it little bit further.
			
				
	Edited June 28, 2015 by Barzah	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Also please-please-please dev dudes, you guys need to look at level scalling system. It is currently The Best System that increase the replayability while also strengthen the community. Most people who don't like the system are either never try it (or not even bother using mentoring system), or just happy to 1 shot lowbies or 1 man low level dungeon which actually aren't rewarding at all.
 
Wildstar already got Mentor system, all you need is to expand it little bit further.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It just made everything more irritating.
One of the reasons I didn't stay around GW2 for every long was because of the level scaling and not being able to find a consistent understanding of the game by natural feel.
----
			
Thank you for the clarification. I didn't feel good about the Primes change after reading the articles, but now this actually makes sense.
 
As for the sprint - I can't wait for it! Finally I won't need to hold another button at all times while moving around, my poor pinky! This works flawlessly in GW2 for example (out of combat movement speed and in combat are different values) and should work amazingly in WS too. Thanks for that change.
 
If we're bringing up scaling, I again have to come back to GW2, because after playing it, I couldn't understand how other MMOs don't have that feature as a core system of their game. It was probably too late to implement such thing in Wildstar when it was so long in development, but if the devs find the time now to revamp whole thing and add downscaling to lower zones, it will offer so much. The idea is already in the game (mentoring), but you have to be in party with a lower level to do that.
			
				
	Edited June 28, 2015 by qazqazqaz	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This is the change that needs to not happen.
 
You already have a lot of feedback from many people here and a live example in TERA to why this unlimited sprint resource will make the combat speed and out of combat transition become clunky, strange, and problematic.
 
Don't make this change, it's completely unnecessary.
It will just make the game more clunky and less fluid.
 
Unlimited sprint is not a good idea, and if you need an example as to why this will be an issue, go look at TERA.
 
Your character sprints all the time out of combat, you get into combat and your character slows down.
It feels slow, clunky, feels like your character is dragging its ass and it really hampers the fluidity of combat.
 
Don't do this, don't make WildStar feel clunky and unresponsive.
 
This is one of those things that sounds great on paper, and once you get it into a live setting it ends up being a really poorly constructed idea.
 
There's other ways to improve out of combat speed, and mounts are one.
Let us instant mount up on the fly.
Reduce the price of the max Mount speed upgrade.
 
Edit: Seriously go play TERA for a few weeks switching back and forth from WildStar and compare the combat speed differiential.
Going back to that combat speed slow down, makes TERA feel awful.
It feels awkward and unresponsive in Guild Wars 2 as well.
 
Try fighting a BAM in TERA vs running a raid in WildStar accounting for the speed changes.
 
It feels very unresponsive with the combat speed slowdown, vs speed boosting(sprint) in WildStar.
 
Then go check out mount vs mount TERA vs WildStar. Instant mounting in TERA is great.
TERA and WildStar have a lot of parallels. Don't make the mistake that TERA did.
 
 
Your biggest pull for WildStar is how fluid, fast, intense, and responsive WildStar's combat is. Don't go and ruin that aspect that's a huge selling point for WildStar.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I felt no slow down from being in combat
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
um, we got mount (even super cheap one for lowbies) that make traveling way much easier.
 
Instead of implementing unlimited sprint, how about you put that concept on mount (make it part of main quest for lowbies so all of them will get mount at starter zone asap). Make it activable after couple second by hitting shift button, plus it is not even game-breaking at all.
 
Also please-please-please dev dudes, you guys need to look at level scalling system. It is currently The Best System that increase the replayability while also strengthen the community. Most people who don't like the system are either never try it (or not even bother using mentoring system), or just happy to 1 shot lowbies or 1 man low level dungeon which actually aren't rewarding at all.
 
Wildstar already got Mentor system, all you need is to expand it little bit further.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Doesn't change the fact that it does infact actually make you move slower in combat.
The game is designed that way.
 
 
It's not a personal opinion dea, it's actual mechanic of the game.
I made an video example showing how it works.
 
It's not a "feel" thing, it's something the game ACUTALLY does.
 
And it's not just me that's saying that this creates a clunky slowed down and dragging feel to the game's combat. There are many other's here too.
 
And honestly What reason do you have to run around sprinting over getting on your mount?
 
 
This is what I mean by "not very long"
just shy of 300 hours isn't exactly a small amount of time.
----
			
Glad to see that the sprint change is going to be as I imagined. Also glad to see that more people think there won't be such a big issue with the combat speed.
 
Looking forward to test it on the ptr.	
----
			
The awesome part about opinions:  you're both right and wrong at the same time !
 
I will test out the speed change first, and the come back with more detailed feedback.
Right now I'm just reacting on initial assumptions as pointed out.
 
So Carbine, send me a beta key please.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
And hey, nobody is forcing you to turn the toggle on :-P
----
			
having the sprint thing be a toggle is a nice compromise. I have a friend who I've tried to coax back into the game, and one of the things he complained about was the sprint mechanic. when he tries the game again later this year i'm sure this is a change that will please him. as for myself i'm pretty indifferent, just looking forward to see how things pan out in beta.
 
 
 
{| class="blockquote"
Also please-please-please dev dudes, you guys need to look at level scalling system. 
----
			
 
 
{| class="blockquote"
Why the bloody hell do people keep saying this bullcrap?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
How is that a bad thing? Not having to glue your pinky to shift is a bad thing?
----
			
 
 
{| class="blockquote"
Can you please read my post correctly?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It's pretty clear from your previous response that you didn't read my post, nor from this reply
That you've read any of my previous posts considering the concern of how a higher out of speed combat will attribute to the lessened fluidity and responsive feel of in combat movement.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I did.
----
			
I haven't played Tera myself, but I've seen the videos posted and at a first glance, I don't see any clunkyness on that speed transition.
 
Again, this is my personal opinion based on initial information, I'll give my definate feedback when PTR goes live.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 how a higher out of speed combat will attribute to the lessened fluidity and responsive feel of in combat movement.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
And people have countered already that they did not feel that.
Opinions people, not facts.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It still doesn't negate the inappropriate response of "well you can just not use it."
It doesn't negate the idea either that there could be better ways to handle this.
 
Because to a range of people, this will affect their gameplay.
 
The fact of the matter is that it WILL change the game's feel of motion.
It will make combat slower than out of combat.
 
And it's not so simple as "well then don't use it" because you'd be screwing yourself over if you chose to not utilize an unlimited sprint resource.
"I don't use infinite sprint"
"congratulations, you're a ditz."
 
We don't really use sprinting out of combat as a means of getting places faster anyways, we use mounts.
I really think this QoL improvement factor should be directed at what we actually do use to get ourselves around town and the world around us in game, Mounts.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
That's just... Wow. How can you logically come to this conclusion? That's like the opposite of reality.
----
			
We do use sprint while mounted, tho. Change is aimed at that, I don't mind unmounted out of combat sprinting being limited.
 
Mounting should have perma-sprint attached to it imo.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
We don't really use sprinting out of combat as a means of getting places faster anyways, we use mounts.
I really think this QoL improvement factor should be directed at what we actually do use to get ourselves around town and the world around us in game, Mounts.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
We do use sprint while mounted, tho.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Point is, I have nothing against perma-sprinting on a mount. That's not a bad idea actually.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This is what I was trying to state yesterday, somehow I thought that we were speaking about mounted out of combat perma sprinting (as you always mount to travel from A to B).
 
And that's why I didn't understand the reasoning against having unlimited endurance while mounted.
----
			
Walk is in there cause sometimes we want to actually walk with our characters.
Especially in Roleplay.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Walk is in there cause sometimes we want to actually walk with our characters.
Especially in Roleplay.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
How is that a bad thing? Not having to glue your pinky to shift is a bad thing?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Finally,  all of the rares and group primes now have a more difficult combat setup compared to the rest of the creatures in the area.  I've made a handful of combat packages with unique mechanics and have spread them out on all of the rares and group primes.  This should give you a more challenging fight.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Because it never seemed intended to be a travel thing and maintained as "on" all the time.
----
			
Again, there are already a mount in this game and the reason why GW2 has auto sprint is because they don't have a mount. If the player want mobility, just add toggle sprint button on mount -_-
 
Sigh i really want to go back and to revisit the farside with my spellsinger, but there is 0 reason at all to go there -_-	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
 
Sigh i really want to go back and to revisit the farside with my spellsinger, but there is 0 reason at all to go there -_-
----
			
I do all my path quests as I go through the zones. XD
 
Really the only time I go back to old zones for non-RP reasons is if I need to farm a challenge for some piece of decor (or a pet, though I've got all those now) or theoretically to kill a world boss. It makes me miss Rift's approach to open world content.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Fun is a reason.
 
Just sayin' ... Farside is one of the best zones in the game. I went back and did all the Path missions I'd missed on three different toons. Not because I needed to, but because, you know, Farside is a hoot.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
  I've also removed the red visual off them which will probably result in them being a little harder to navigate through in the 22+ zones because you no longer will have the red warning on them.  Their spawn locations are mostly in tact and if you do find them blocking quest objectives, we will certainly look at the specific cases to fix it.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
If it was never intended as a travel thing they should have disabled it out of combat.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
To clarify further: the sprint is a toggle outside of combat. Rather than holding down shift, you can switch between sprinting, running, or walking speed at any time, with no resource cost. In combat, you default to run speed and the sprint resource bar is back; it functions much as it does now.
 
I know there are some strong opinions about this change. I highly recommend you sign up for beta if you haven't yet in order to get a feel for how it works in WildStar. Give it a fair shake once beta begins and let us know your feelings about it.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It does.
 
Fran, we've been testing internally with it. Anecdotal, of course, but the switch between out of combat and combat movement doesn't feel slow or clunky to me. I understand you have concerns based on how it's been implemented in other games, which is why we ask that you test our implementation of it in beta and give us feedback once you're gotten your hands on this version and experience its feel for yourself.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
To clarify further: the sprint is a toggle outside of combat. Rather than holding down shift, you can switch between sprinting, running, or walking speed at any time, with no resource cost. In combat, you default to run speed and the sprint resource bar is back; it functions much as it does now.
 
I know there are some strong opinions about this change. I highly recommend you sign up for beta if you haven't yet in order to get a feel for how it works in WildStar. Give it a fair shake once beta begins and let us know your feelings about it.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
When we talk about lairs, were talking about a one room cave for the group primes.  We're not talking about the two man primes that you find mixed into the play spaces. That should remain how it currently is.  Granted, things could always change direction in the future but for now this is our intentions.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
When we talk about lairs, were talking about a one room cave for the group primes.  We're not talking about the two man primes that you find mixed into the play spaces. That should remain how it currently is.  Granted, things could always change direction in the future but for now this is our intentions.
----
			
For the Group Mobs (2+ or 5+), can it be made so that everyone that contributes gets full credit + loot for killing them?
 
It'd work sort of like in ESO where if two dudes are standing near a Group Mob, they can go right ahead and start killin' without having to set anything up.  Also players won't (usually) get annoyed when somebody else comes and 'helps' them since it won't negatively impact their loot/XP/quest completion.
 
A Wildstar example would be the 2+ Spider and 2+ Bear thing in Crimson Badlands.  If anyone sees someone fighting them, they can go right ahead and jump in.  Everybody then gets full credit for their quests.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Oh, rock on then.
 
To be honest I don't think I've ever seen a Prime for more than 2 people unless we're talking world bosses?  Is it the dudes with the red tint that we're talking about?
----
			
I'm concerned about the removal of the red glow. I assume the only reason the primes are even being looked at by the dev team is because people ran into them by accident while leveling and died (and got upset about it). If these people couldn't tell the difference between a regular mob and a giant red one, what makes you think this change will make it any better for those people?
 
Consider that by default, health numbers are turned off in the UI. I would wager that the vast majority of people playing this game either don't change that setting until they start doing group content at level 50 or change it immediately to show health percentages (because they're used to it from raiding in other games). One of the only reliable ways to quickly tell if a prime is a prime is to look at its health relative to everything else in the zone. And since almost nobody has the health in X/Y format in their UI, removing the red glow will only hurt the people who were originally having a problem with recognizing the primes in the first place.
 
Also, agreed with Fran and the others about the sprint changes. The inevitable request, a few months or a year down the line, will be people begging to have perma-sprint enabled in combat "because we already have it everywhere else, why not?" Instant (or near-instant) mounting and increasing mount speed to be constantly somewhere above the current Glitterkitty sprint speed while removing the sprint function from mounts will give people the out-of-combat speed they crave, and will avoid the problem of people begging for sprint speed all the time (ie, in combat) because they're used to it out in the open world.
 
Both the intended sprint changes and the proposed mount changes would screw with open world PvP a bit, but I suppose that's the price you pay for convenience. I would hope that either of those features would be disabled in instanced PvP.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I'm concerned about the removal of the red glow. I assume the only reason the primes are even being looked at by the dev team is because people ran into them by accident while leveling and died (and got upset about it). If these people couldn't tell the difference between a regular mob and a giant red one, what makes you think this change will make it any better for those people?
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
There are named 5 man mobs scattered throughout the zones. They're not distinguishable from 2-man primes aside from they usually have a special name and their nameplate has a little 5+ number on it.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Thanks. I need to pay more attention to that, then!
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Also they're usually targets of a group quest for the area.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Aren't the group quest ones usually 2+? Most of the 5+ primes I've run into haven't been part of quests.
----
			Weird, cause I've run into a lot of 5+ named primes that aren't part of quests. o_O	
----
			
Odd. Do you remember any names offhand or how much health they had? I'm not sure if the rare prime mobs in Grimvault are classified as 5+ on their nameplate, but those can be done with 1-2 (the ones that count toward the "I like it rare" achievements). Maybe it's just a discrepancy between what the nameplates say and how many people it realistically takes to kill them? In my opinion, the recommendations in the quest names are overkill by at least 1-2 people.
 
There are definitely a few with a metric buttload of health that just don't seem to have any purpose. For instance, there's a girrok just south of the Pell town in Blighthaven that has a special name (Pyropaw the Smokey) and the ground around it is burned. Has about 400k health, doesn't really drop anything special, doesn't count toward any achievements or path missions.	
----