118684-the-economics-of-exploitation-and-you-page-2

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How does it make you feel, knowing that the people that exploited a bug made off freely with extra platinum, while you, someone who didn't exploit the bug at all, had some of your hard earned platinum taken away?
 
If I were you, I'd continue to send in tickets until that is restored.  A lot of people seem to think that CRB is an amazing studio incapable of making mistakes.  I think a less short-sighted view is that even though intentions are good, reality is not.
 
Assuming what you say is indeed true, this is just further evidence as to why anyone found EXPLOITING the bug should have been banned, rather than a blanket ban for anything to do with bloodbriar etc.   People have faith in the competence of CRB for no reason, despite the studio showing time and time again they're very prone to making mistakes. 
 
We're not asking for hard things here guys, we're just asking you to take the best course of action from a business perspective, because it also helps out the people involved.
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This is based on the assumption that there are people who still have a huge quantity of plat out there to buy up CREDD.  I haven't actually seen evidence that this is the case, though it's possible that it is.  
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			Hey guys, thanks for the thought out posts on this.  Today is shaping up to be pretty busy but I've been talking about a lot of this stuff around the office and am going to do so more today too.  Just want to be sure you guys know I've read all this and am going to respond either later today or Monday.  If you guys have other concerns or comments please keep them coming, I appreciate the feedback.	
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			At some point this all becomes moot, the horse is out of the barn and the more time CRB spends discussing the more time passes so eventually things will have sorted themselves out to some degree and the cheaters will have prospered.	
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What interests me the most is why they gave the one time chance. Must of been such a large scale issue they didn't know how to handle it with out destroying nexus. I understand people are upset and want justice, but like the real world you shouldn't be punished TWICE for one crime. They had to be a reason behind it and to go back on players will be interesting. I think it will cause more issues since this thread seems to be about 6 people who are upset. The same few who post all over the forums asking for Carbine Justice in everything but since they don't get their way they freak out. 
 
Less than 5% of the player base uses forums. If they were all jacked up about it more would be here. 2,000 Views seems very lack luster. 
 
This thread being just 4 pages long shows me that this wasn't a HUGE issue as the few are making it out to be. More would be posting. FTP thread in one day has most posts and that doesn't even impact players like this did.
 
I see carbine going back and playing double jeopardy going to cause even more issues. Carbine will lose credibility both ways no matter what. You can never please both parties but at the same time why?
 
Word of mouth is the best advertisement but to think that people won't play this game due to ONE time they didn't punish people how you felt (like how people feel in murder crimes when guy doesn't get life).
 
I can think of countless games where people got away with bloody murder FAR worse than this. Blizzard has these same issues but people seem more worried about actually playing the game than crying about it like in wildstar. 
 
No one plays wildstar but they post on the forums crying about it nonstop. Game is dead and its not from some exploit that seems to be like 1/3rd of the player base since of how the punishments went out.	
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Hey guys, thanks for the thought out posts on this.  Today is shaping up to be pretty busy but I've been talking about a lot of this stuff around the office and am going to do so more today too.  Just want to be sure you guys know I've read all this and am going to respond either later today or Monday.  If you guys have other concerns or comments please keep them coming, I appreciate the feedback.
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There will be another exploit somewhere along the line. It's only a matter of time. It's well worth looking at how the response to this one played out and try to inform the discussion around the table at Carbine when the next one happens.
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Yep I know and I'm willing to bet it will be handled with the same plodding slowness that this one was. This how thing has just felt like CRB sitting on thir hands so that they didn't have to actually do anything. 
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So, the day before the exploits happened, I had saved up enough for my final Ability Point.
 
When I went to purchase (was going to do the B/O just to avoid waiting / spamming) I found out that there were 0 for sale.  I figured, as the developers had suggested, that the market would naturally adjust itself as there now was one less person looking for said ability point.
 
I have been waiting for this to occur, since the exploit day, and have yet to see this occur.
 
 
What has happened is that the demand remained the same, but as there were less available and the supply decreased completely, it results in the market naturally inflating its price (as it should).  This has not changed over time, and instead has become the new norm.
 
It is simply amazing, the effect the exploits can happen, and how marginally EASY to is to correct.  What blows my mind, is that Carbine is not actively taking steps to restore the balance, and correct its mistakes.	
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			Can't talk about how the economy was to how it is now since the player base is nothing. Less players = less items. No drops = less people putting up.	
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So, the day before the exploits happened, I had saved up enough for my final Ability Point.
 
When I went to purchase (was going to do the B/O just to avoid waiting / spamming) I found out that there were 0 for sale.  I figured, as the developers had suggested, that the market would naturally adjust itself as there now was one less person looking for said ability point.
 
I have been waiting for this to occur, since the exploit day, and have yet to see this occur.
 
 
What has happened is that the demand remained the same, but as there were less available and the supply decreased completely, it results in the market naturally inflating its price (as it should).  This has not changed over time, and instead has become the new norm.
 
It is simply amazing, the effect the exploits can happen, and how marginally EASY to is to correct.  What blows my mind, is that Carbine is not actively taking steps to restore the balance, and correct its mistakes.
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Can't talk about how the economy was to how it is now since the player base is nothing. Less players = less items. No drops = less people putting up.
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Gee, it's almost like somehow there's reasons why people aren't playing. I wonder if cheating has anything to do with it.
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Stop acting like this made people quit the game.
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Every one wasn't playing pior to people exploiting. Stop acting like this made people quit the game.
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Reading over this thread, I have a couple questions that may seem naive, but I never have claimed to be a genius. 
 
So #1, why no roll back? If you want to negate the effects of the exploit, this would seem to be a no brainier to me. I understand that players never want to give up anything. I've GM'd tabletop RPG's for decades. The best way to *cupcake* off a player is to take their shinies. However, when folks cheat you do what you have to. I realize the scale makes it a more complicated choice, but I don't see why it's not the right one.
 
Second question, why not perma-ban exploiters? This one I'm pretty sure I know why. Each player is a paying customer after all. Punishing paying customers leads to losing paying customers. With the game struggling as it has been, I can see where there would be a counter urge coming from corporate to take it easy with the switch. Still, you then need to decide who do you lose? Legit players or cheaters? I guess corporate wise whichever side is most numerous?
 
Third question, when is rare too rare? Does drop rate scale with player population and log in rates? If it doesn't, then Carbine has made a significant error in planning. An item with a one in a thousand drop rate might be fine in a game with ten thousand players for example, but in one with a hundred players? Ten? It would be so rare as to never appear. Drop rates should be based on bell curves that shift with population to ensure that rare does become impossible and give incentive to astronomic pricing. If this isn't the case, it really needs to be to address the issues of rarity that drive gold fever.	
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Well, it goes hand in hand.  When you don't care to punish people for blatant exploitation, and instead want people to focus on helping you fix your mistakes, you're asking a lot.
 
Here's what the people want.  Harsh punishment for exploiters.  The economy can take 2 weeks to fix itself or never fix itself at all, but that doesn't matter if it can be freely exploited.  You're just driving people away (and ironically negatively impacting the economy by taking away players), by doing so.  The very perception of people not wanting to use the economy appropriately harms it.
 
Look, instead of trying to think of the best way to triage the economy, because quite frankly you don't have the manpower to completely fix it, just do a couple of simple things.
 
Either give everyone in the game 500 platinum, OR
 
up the drop rates of all rare items exponentially .  Having to do dailies for over an hour each day for a week just to afford stuff in this game isn't how you want to play, anyway.  Make everything more available while simultaneously removing the exploited platinum would stimulate the economy very well.
 
Having ability points at the equivalent of 160$ USD is just bad for everyone.   People would buy more CREDD if it had more buying power.... not to mention people would actually roll alts.
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Hi DaOgre,
Thank you for this. As far as I can see, CREDD has only marginally increased on Jabbit and I understand this is where the focus has been. However, all items of interest have seen a surge in price after they were all bought during the exploit (eg sign of fusion - eldan used to be below 25g, now at 35-40g a 60% increase). Given that Carbine is being very light touch on this (ie doing next to nothing as I understand there was no claw back on outflows from the accounts), one should not expect the economy to come back to normal. This is pretty much where it stops in my view regarding the topic you are willing to discuss. I do not have much to add on the other topic that would not be obvious or would not have already been described by other users.
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Reading over this thread, I have a couple questions that may seem naive, but I never have claimed to be a genius.
 
So #1, why no roll back? If you want to negate the effects of the exploit, this would seem to be a no brainier to me. I understand that players never want to give up anything. I've GM'd tabletop RPG's for decades. The best way to *cupcake* off a player is to take their shinies. However, when folks cheat you do what you have to. I realize the scale makes it a more complicated choice, but I don't see why it's not the right one.
 
 
Second question, why not perma-ban exploiters? This one I'm pretty sure I know why. Each player is a paying customer after all. Punishing paying customers leads to losing paying customers. With the game struggling as it has been, I can see where there would be a counter urge coming from corporate to take it easy with the switch. Still, you then need to decide who do you lose? Legit players or cheaters? I guess corporate wise whichever side is most numerous?
 
Third question, when is rare too rare? Does drop rate scale with player population and log in rates? If it doesn't, then Carbine has made a significant error in planning. An item with a one in a thousand drop rate might be fine in a game with ten thousand players for example, but in one with a hundred players? Ten? It would be so rare as to never appear. Drop rates should be based on bell curves that shift with population to ensure that rare does become impossible and give incentive to astronomic pricing. If this isn't the case, it really needs to be to address the issues of rarity that drive gold fever.
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Third question, when is rare too rare? Does drop rate scale with player population and log in rates? If it doesn't, then Carbine has made a significant error in planning. An item with a one in a thousand drop rate might be fine in a game with ten thousand players for example, but in one with a hundred players? Ten? It would be so rare as to never appear. Drop rates should be based on bell curves that shift with population to ensure that rare does become impossible and give incentive to astronomic pricing. If this isn't the case, it really needs to be to address the issues of rarity that drive gold fever.
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This point is not directly related to the exploit, of course, but it's nevertheless an excellent point that ought to inform how drop rates are coded. You can always guess a number of players and be disastrously wrong--and then all your value estimates are a waste because all your estimates of the available supply are completely off. But if you start with a guess and update according to a running average number of unique account log-ins, you quickly hone in on how many players there really are, what the supply really is.
 
Thinking about this also made it clear to me that a related issue is that this exploit worked because even though exploiters were creating a massive glut of materials, the plat they could get for those materials never bottomed out because they weren't limited by supply and demand. No matter how big of a glut there is of an item, NPC vendors don't scale with the rest of the economy. They don't track supply in setting how much they'll pay for an item, and they remove it permanently from circulation once it's sold to them.
 
What they'll pay for items doesn't shift according to changes in supply and demand, so despite the fact that the mats just kept piling up, they just kept handing out plat for it and destroying it, keeping the profits from the mats high and the supply of the mats low. Exploiters took advantage of that here to circumvent supply and demand and create effectively infinite supplies without ever killing demand below the vendor's sale price.
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Well... hopefully they are mulling over some of the issues here like whether a suspension costing $3.00 worth of lost sub time is really going to deter someone from going after $100 worth of cheating-obtained plat; whether it really is all that straightforward to return the economy to normal without a rollback; whether total plat, cost of a few key items, or plat inequity between cheaters and non-cheaters is the right way to decide whether things are fixed or not; whether the best way to manage the playerbase in response to cheating is public accounting of actions taken and punishments in effect or a total lockdown on information and the phrase "Trust me".
 
These aren't trivial issues, and hopefully they're having some discussions about them just like we are. Given some of the questions they've been asking, it seems like they haven't thought through all of this very comprehensively, so this is the time to make sure they do so before the next one rolls around.
 
Then at least we know that they HAVE had the concerns laid out for them to inform their response to the next one. If they respond the same way even after being informed... well, then that certainly will inform my own decision-making process as well.
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Been thinking about posting, this post made me decide i should. This kind of thinking seems a bit popular and is just wrong based on my own experience.
I simply want to share what happened to me in the hopes that it turns around the sentiment that carbine was too kind to exploiters. I haven't got all the information and only know what happened to myself for sure.
 
I got suspended. I didnt actually use the exploit but i knew of it. Because i knew of the exploit i knew that bloodbriar, popular for boosts etc, would probably be extremely cheap and available in large quantities on the AH. So i spent the afternoon/evening doing STL farming and putting up buy orders for bloodbriar. In the end i got around 10 000 bloodbriar for just over 20s each.
The next morning at 6AM i received an email and i was suspended for 72H.
I sent in a ticket guessing they simply did a search and blanket suspension for everyone with X amount of money/herbs/seeds come through their inventory. After about 24h i got unsuspended and logged back in. I noticed that i had about 30p less cash than before, and all of the bloodbriar (including 500~1000 i had bought previously, on hazak) was gone.
That meant about a total of 50 platinum loss for me, money i had previously farmed from thickets and runic modules that wasn't .
 
I sent in some more tickets, spent some time asking for reversal/clarifications but Carbine said that they took what they think is in line with what i did.
If carbine's intention was to take abusers back to square one, they would have reversed those AH trades and refund the money i invested in bloodbriar. Instead they deleted all the bloodbriar and went a step further by deleting another 30p.
 
Of course i'm just another unknown person on this forum, i could be saying anything just like the people that said they got back into the game without losing anything. I believe carbine is against naming and shaming so if carbine wants to they can confirm my story, or refute it if they disagree with what i wrote here.
 
All i know is that i lost 50plat for a relatively minor thing (compared to the people who made 50p/hour using the actual bug). I believe the people that actually abused the bug are punished a lot harder.
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Thanks for all the information and for fighting the good fight.
 
I doubt you can answer my pointed questions but I'll post them if there is a chance:
 
Were players that exploited, better off, worse off, or breaking even, in the persistent world after the cleanup? (not talking about punishment outside of the persistent world like bans)
Were people that play the market and keen to notice a trend and take advantage of it, punished and stripped of their plat?  I ask this based on the post from @Godofal, as it seems he was just playing the game as any market/trader player would.  People legitimately play the market all the time, and it isn't unheard of for prices to plummet or skyrocket when a power play makes a big move. (Edit: The question still stands, but re reading the post from Godofal, I can see that he said he knew he was taking advantage of the exploit.  I'm asking about players just playing the market that didn't know about the exploit.)
Did some players have MORE plat taken away from them than they exploited?
Did some players have LESS plat taken away from them than they exploited?
That's all I'm curious about.  Honestly this doesn't directly affect me at the moment, and I'm not concerned with my personal buying power (not to take away from those that have this concern). All I'm concerned with is the expectations and precedent that this seems to set.  If it's beneficial for some players to exploit, and detrimental for others, I have an issue with that inconsistency.  If it's beneficial to exploit at risk of a temp ban (punishment outside of the persistent world), it becomes a situation where some players will want to weigh their options of risk vs reward.  If another big exploit comes out soon (crossing my fingers it doesn't, but it happens) I'd like to think I wouldn't participate, but if I see a bunch of other players risk it and benefit from it, it will be a lesson learned for me.
 
I'll let this be my last post on the subject, and I'm very thankful for you starting and participating in the conversation.
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What interests me the most is why they gave the one time chance. Must of been such a large scale issue they didn't know how to handle it with out destroying nexus. I understand people are upset and want justice, but like the real world you shouldn't be punished TWICE for one crime. They had to be a reason behind it and to go back on players will be interesting. I think it will cause more issues since this thread seems to be about 6 people who are upset. The same few who post all over the forums asking for Carbine Justice in everything but since they don't get their way they freak out. 
 
Less than 5% of the player base uses forums. If they were all jacked up about it more would be here. 2,000 Views seems very lack luster. 
 
This thread being just 4 pages long shows me that this wasn't a HUGE issue as the few are making it out to be. More would be posting. FTP thread in one day has most posts and that doesn't even impact players like this did.
 
I see carbine going back and playing double jeopardy going to cause even more issues. Carbine will lose credibility both ways no matter what. You can never please both parties but at the same time why?
 
Word of mouth is the best advertisement but to think that people won't play this game due to ONE time they didn't punish people how you felt (like how people feel in murder crimes when guy doesn't get life).
 
I can think of countless games where people got away with bloody murder FAR worse than this. Blizzard has these same issues but people seem more worried about actually playing the game than crying about it like in wildstar. 
 
No one plays wildstar but they post on the forums crying about it nonstop. Game is dead and its not from some exploit that seems to be like 1/3rd of the player base since of how the punishments went out.
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I have spent most of my day today talking with people about issues people have raised in this thread.  I absolutely agree this is a non-trivial issue and I hope we can have some tangible results to show you guys one way or another, and I think your last point here is a fair one.
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Thanks for posting, did this get resolved?
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What interests me the most is why they gave the one time chance. Must of been such a large scale issue they didn't know how to handle it with out destroying nexus. I understand people are upset and want justice, but like the real world you shouldn't be punished TWICE for one crime. They had to be a reason behind it and to go back on players will be interesting. I think it will cause more issues since this thread seems to be about 6 people who are upset. The same few who post all over the forums asking for Carbine Justice in everything but since they don't get their way they freak out. 
 
Less than 5% of the player base uses forums. If they were all jacked up about it more would be here. 2,000 Views seems very lack luster. 
 
This thread being just 4 pages long shows me that this wasn't a HUGE issue as the few are making it out to be. More would be posting. FTP thread in one day has most posts and that doesn't even impact players like this did.
 
I see carbine going back and playing double jeopardy going to cause even more issues. Carbine will lose credibility both ways no matter what. You can never please both parties but at the same time why?
 
Word of mouth is the best advertisement but to think that people won't play this game due to ONE time they didn't punish people how you felt (like how people feel in murder crimes when guy doesn't get life).
 
I can think of countless games where people got away with bloody murder FAR worse than this. Blizzard has these same issues but people seem more worried about actually playing the game than crying about it like in wildstar. 
 
No one plays wildstar but they post on the forums crying about it nonstop. Game is dead and its not from some exploit that seems to be like 1/3rd of the player base since of how the punishments went out.
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What do you mean? CS made it very clear that they consider the matter resolved if that's what you mean.
The reason i posted this here was to give an example of the side that noone saw and maybe show that carbine didn't let exploiters or people who were involved off easy.
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OK, now I'm confused. Did you or did you not actually perform the exploit, or help someone who did to shelter their profits from confiscation?
 
If the answer is no, then I don't see why you're getting punished at all. You did not create any plat, nor did you help the people who did.
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No, i did not use the exploit or made any sort of deal with anyone that did. I only put up buy orders on the AH.
I'm not here to get my money back, as much as i disagree with the decision, since CS made it clear that they think the matter is resolved.
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OK, thanks for the clarification. Given those circumstances, I disagree with their decision too--and I find myself wondering how what happened to you is even possible if they are in fact using their administrative superpowers to search for exploiters by tracking the exploit itself.
 
That's my concern here. To me, this is a sign that they may not be tracking the exploiters on the basis of having exploited, even if they do have the ability to do so. If that's true, that's a major problem in how this exploit was handled.  :blink:
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Exactly why I found it interesting, it points to the direction of a blanket quick hash of things rather than a properly targeted (using logs) approach as we are told is possible.
 
A real basic example would be ... oh look, this person has more than 2000 bloodbriar they obtained on that day, ohnoes exploiter or alternatively this person had 200 plat and now has 500, must be an exploiter.  That kind of approach is poor if the data is there to figure out who actually did this.
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Well these were my thoughts straight away and still remain so...something stinks awfully about us being told the transaction logs are thorough enough to identify stuff yet the difference hasn't even been identified between someone buying bloodbriar from the CX and harvesting it exploiting on their plot.  It's not even a question of catching genuine harvesters against exploiting harvesters, it's about someone buying something from the CX which should have independent logs as opposed to trading someone or harvesting something.
 
That's absolutely atrocious if true and should never happen although I do think the Bloodbriar should have been taken away and the money spent refunded because it was possible due to others exploited behavior.  It should not have been a punishment for the person buying it, just a necessity to get the economy back to where it should be pre exploit.
 
That number we've spoke about a few times, the amount of plat generated and taken back, should be easy to figure out!	
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That number we've spoke about a few times, the amount of plat generated and taken back, should be easy to figure out!
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I think you're going in the wrong direction, i had knowledge of an exploit and used that knowledge to my advantage. While i didnt abuse the exploit myself i was somewhat involved and therefore could be punished, simple as that.
What happened is not an indication not that they *cupcake*ed up but that they brought the hammer down hard on me and therefore its very likely they brought the hammer down even harder on people who actively exploited.	
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I think you're going in the wrong direction, i had knowledge of an exploit and used that knowledge to my advantage. While i didnt abuse the exploit myself i was somewhat involved and therefore could be punished, simple as that.
What happened is not an indication not that they *cupcake*ed up but that they brought the hammer down hard on me and therefore its very likely they brought the hammer down even harder on people who actively exploited.
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I don't see it like that though.
 
I see it as you've been harshly dealt with...you shouldn't be punished (purely from the data they cannot deduce that you were exploiting...you were buying herbs from the CX!), you should have the items you bought taken away and your plat refunded because the source of your herbs was exploiting.  Your case sounds more like a rash and quick judgment that you were definitely exploiting so slap you with a 50 plat fine and take your bloodbriar this could well have been dealt to those doing the exploiting too as a blanket punishment.
 
We don't know and I'm not really fussed about who got what, it's more a case of how they came to that because if the logs are there it should have been done properly.
 
The numbers if we ever see them would slightly justify how it was handled I don't think we'll ever get to know how far the logging etc goes.
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What i'm saying is that if they think this is a fair punishment (regardless of my own/your/anyones opinion) then that means that the people that did worse than me got even worse punishments.
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And what Charge is saying is that you're assuming that they didn't think you were in fact exploiting yourself. Unless they told you directly that this was the case, you don't know why you got punished any more than we do.
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I've gotten an email from carbine stating that my infraction has been removed, appologized, and sent an ingame mail with plat. So pretty much everything i said before (i'm punished for buying bloodbriar so exploiters are probably punished even more) doesn't apply anymore.
I like that they sent an appology and removed the infraction from my account. That is worth much, much more than the money.
 
There isn't much actual information about how/why i was targeted in the first place beyond that it was due to the large amount of bloodbriar. They state that they are unable to share any additional information regarding the investigation.
So what i'm thinking (speculation!) is that while carbines' logs are accurate and detailed (IE they can see exactly where i got the bloodbriar from) they don't have the manpower to go through the logs quickly (not that odd considering how many players were probably involved in all this).
 
I don't think people here are going to get the answers they are looking for. From what i can tell carbine does not wish to share details about how they handle this sort of thing. It's kind of understandeable because that would allow people to work around what they do, but it does mean we're a bit in the dark and are forced to trust carbine handling it right every time.	
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I've gotten an email from carbine stating that my infraction has been removed, appologized, and sent an ingame mail with plat. So pretty much everything i said before (i'm punished for buying bloodbriar so exploiters are probably punished even more) doesn't apply anymore.
I like that they sent an appology and removed the infraction from my account. That is worth much, much more than the money.
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I for one have 0 confidence in Carbines ability to manage and regulate their own game. All of the people on Warhound Na who exploited are still there and rich, and yes, prices are still high.
 
Managing the game into the ground. No wonder so many people bailed out.	
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I for one have 0 confidence in Carbines ability to manage and regulate their own game. All of the people on Warhound Na who exploited are still there and rich, and yes, prices are still high.
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CREDD dropped to 8.5 plat this morning for buy offers. sell offers were still at 10p or 11p I think.
 
What other prices do you see that are "still high"?
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			10 plat is high? On Jabbit (EU) it's been well over 18 plat for weeks. Even before these exploits, the price haven't changed much.	
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			This sort of faded away like i imagined it would	
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You mean like Carbine prayed it would.
 
And like the enthusiasm and presence of players who object to the over-cooked pasta level of moral fortitude displayed by the Devs.
 
There's all kinds of fading going on here.	
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			I still kept my eye on it to see if we ever got any clarity!	
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Hey guys, there's nothing much to report unfortunately.  I've had discussions internally on what we can do in the future and taken a lot of the feedback from this thread and the other one and made sure it's had high visibility.   The decision has been made to let the economy recover on it's own and meanwhile I've tried to push for some process changes for when the next exploit happens.
 
Ultimately I think Yasfan in one of these threads brought up what I think is the best course of action.  Watch how we deal with the next exploit when it happens and hold us accountable to it if you feel like we messed it up again.  I'm happy to continue the conversation if people have specific questions they don't think I responded to.  Some of the stuff I can't speak to but I've tried to respond to the things I can.
 
In regards to wanting to know the rates of platinum we recovered, our CS team has a percentage of that plat which they expected to recover, our team mentioned they were able to actually get back more plat than we did the last time and exceeded our expectations of how much they would be able to get back.  Personally I think they did a great job with this exploit, but there are obviously still things that got away from us and ways that we can do better.  I think you're right, Yasfan, that there are better markers than the price for CREDD on how we've done.  The problem is that with these exploits in a situation where we don't do a rollback, it becomes complicated to just "take back" the plat, once it spreads out and becomes diluted.  
 
As is though I think we have had a lot of good internal process improvements that should help with this in the future and some concrete tools improvements and some things making it into the game that should help with this as well.  I'm hoping that when the next exploit comes (and I'm confident that there will be one at some point), that we'll do a better job than this one and I'm hoping you guys will be able to see a positive influence from taking the time to engage with me on here.
 
Lastly, Nike Online, you catch more flies with honey and I don't feel particularly obligated to answer your questions or respond to your posts if you can't muster up the self control to write a post without just being vitriolic. 	
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Thanks for doing this and the response and I can only hope your efforts are not in vein.  It sounds like there are certain people there that don't give two hoots to be honest and they are those with the say so.
 
If the logging was there the situation would have been fully retrieved and more if you wanted to deter people.  The fact a percentage was received makes me skeptical but either way, nothing we can do about it and you've clearly got restrictions with what you can do too.  Someone's hoping there isn't another exploit along these lines I think!
 
But again, appreciate your personal efforts on this and hopefully there have been improvements as that's all we want really, Wildstar to be better.	
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Lastly, Nike Online, you catch more flies with honey and I don't feel particularly obligated to answer your questions or respond to your posts if you can't muster up the self control to write a post without just being vitriolic. 
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Then maybe get a clue how contemptible this whole exercise has been. You just announced "Carbines's plan A: sweep it under the rug and hope it goes away"
 
And so I repeat - things are going away. Specifically, the subscriptions of people who believe in fair play. Carbine coddles exploiters, and that's an impression that's going to spread whether or not you try to belittle me for saying it.
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This threads relevance has suddenly become very real. 
 
Wonder if you'll be performing permabans this time. 	
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Hi all,
 
Looking at the last few posts of this thread, I think it has come to a bit of a natural end.
As CRB_DaOgre mentions, we appreciate all of your feedback and concerns and will keep these factors in mind for any future decisions. As many like to remind us, actions do speak louder than words so please feel free to share your feedback if this situation arises again and any differences in our approach.
 
I want to thank you again for all your constructive comments, feedback and concerns. We do appreciate them immensely, but I strongly feel this thread has reached a bit of a natural end now and will just continue going over similar ground.
 
If anybody has a specific aspect they wish to continue discussing, please feel free to create a new thread.
 
All the best,	
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