115520-say-no-to-f2p-page-2

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== Content ==
			If Carbine wants the game to stay sub, they need to give players a reason to actually sub. There's so much foolishness and hypocrisy in this thread it's staggering.	
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			f2p games bring more money. So, say no to freaking gready developers if they are want money to feed families.	
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it is possible for f2p games to bring in more money sometimes, if done correctly.
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			I would much rather it stay as it is and be successful but at the same time I would much rather have queues actually popping and groups forming :(	
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			As I've said before- if there is ever anything in game that is behind a wall that I have to pay cash for above or instead of a subscription, I'm out.	
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If Carbine wants the game to stay sub, they need to give players a reason to actually sub. There's so much foolishness and hypocrisy in this thread it's staggering.
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Yep. I love the game to death, but there are only two possible outcomes.
 
1. F2P
2. F2P, F2P fails, NCSOFT pulls the plug
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3. Carbine fixes what was actually driving people away (which they are already making a big dent in). The sub was not it.
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Yep. I love the game to death, but there are only two possible outcomes.
 
1. F2P
2. F2P, F2P fails, NCSOFT pulls the plug.
 
 <_<
 
Everyone in this thread that are claiming they'll leave if the game changes, just go.
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The spring is sprung, the damage done. If you expect the game to come back to life in drop 3, I have sad, sad news for you. At best expect a few days to a week of a small influx of prior subs checking it out, after that it will drop even further. 
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Drop 3 could definitely breathe life back into the game. I'm not assuming it will or that there'll be a dramatic shift, but it could do a lot with the right changes and some PR. Someone was saying earlier that a lot of folks left because folks were leaving, and I agree, so if drop 3/megaservers brings 50 people to the auction house one weekend, it makes a big impression.
 
And although we're a minority, housing in this game is something you can easily come back to after a break. It's not like an RPG where you forget where you were or lose interest in your character. Worst case scenario you blow up your plot and start fresh with a crate full of items. :P	
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Your statement makes no logical sense. Players didn't leave because of the sub; they left because certain things were dissatisfying about the game. Carbine is addressing the majority of those things.
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I'd rather pay more monthly and I can with the C.R.E.D.D. system. It also helps people who cant afford to pay for the game play or those who dont want to spend money on a game (what ever their reason). Win - win really... What Wildstar needs now more than anything is people who are willing to do some footwork in their social networking circles, word of mouth, and stop being so negative. Face it - the Dev's and a company cant get the work done without employees. Employees require compensation for their work. Money is a double edged sword. You can use it for good, or you can use it for evil. You might be a worker. Workers gotta stick together. The game is new and has so much potential. Dont be your worst enemy...
 
It really comes down to this:
 
~Are you going to support something you want to see succeed by doing that footwork or showing financial support?
 
~Or are you going to be self defeating nhilistic terrorist and constantly throw around your subscription peen?
 
I want an awesome MMO to play so I'm going to freely support this awesome game so it can live up to its potential instead of be a part of its failure and in the end I have to play bad MMO's if I actually even continue to play MMO's.
 
Is there MMO after Wildstar? Some people think there is and have faith. I really dont think there is though for me.
 
Wildstar ruined all the MMO's for me in a good way by offering an all around better MMO to play.
 
Yeah the game needs some work. The question is, are you going to support that work and help make it happen? Are you going to be there through the tough times? Or are you going to wait at the finish line like some gold digger that would have simply overlooked you until you show up in a nice car 
 
Its really up to you...	
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Do you understand how people work? Most people are gone for good when they leave a game, sure some come back if things change dramatically for the better, but that's a very small minority. Add that to the terrible publicity and word of mouth the game has gotten.... 
 
 
Mega servers will help a little with guild recruitment, but it's not going to do anything for Q times, something that's bothering literally everyone I play with. The only major change you will be seeing is people running around in Thyad, while your Q timer ticks past 60min.
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			If the game goes F2P, unless their model is EXTREMELY fair, which I doubt, i'm definitely going back to stuff like WoW or FFXIV, where I can still have access to everything with just a sub.	
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Considering the incoming stuff on adventures and dungeons, you might get your queue times significantly reduced, if people are willing to tank and heal.  It's not like there aren't enough people sitting in the queue, it's that they're all DPS.
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F2P will do one thing to this game and that will be killing it. haven't you all learned from other games?
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Like that mother of all failures, SWTOR, right?
 
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People need to understand the differences of B2P and F2P. 
 
B2P with the current toxic reddit/forum community will be bad. People will not purchase a game with a "toxic" community...free trials will bring in new blood
 
F2P will make no difference to those who are already subscribe except, well, its now free. this will bring in new blood
 
I think a decent F2P model that is around is TerA and Rift.  They were both a sub model that are now F2P and seem to do well with the community although small.
 
So, I think we should wait...we really have no say...NCSoft will be the deciding factor as I read in someones post.  Lets all just wait...that's all you can do	
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I'd rather see it go f2p than die. By dieing I mean too small population to be able to play the game properly.
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Like that mother of all failures, SWTOR, right?
 
Granted, WildStar doesn't have the name brand recognition that Star Wars does, but, given that "TORtanic" is the rallying cry for the anti-F2P crowd, considering that the game has 1 million players monthly -  half of them being subscribers, brings in $120 million a year, and is consistently in the Top 5 MMORPGs, the devs can only wish that WildStar could fail as hard as SWTOR did. :D
 
That being said, I think what most people mean by going F2P is a hybrid game with a sub and F2P options, not a purely F2P game. As long as there's a sub option, the game experience really shouldn't change for subscribers.
 
Regarding "the community,"  honestly, it really can't get worse than the constant fanboi vs hater war that goes on in every single game.
 
Regarding the cash shop, this can be done right or it can be done wrong. Of course, this is the biggest issue, and I'm sure that if Carbine is considering a shift to F2P, it's people's comments on this aspect of F2P that they're paying the most attention to.
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The game isn't dead, and there are a lot of changes coming that have a good chance of bringing lots of people back.
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F2P will make no difference to those who are already subscribe except, well, its now free. this will bring in new blood
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Your speaking of chance, not certainty. The game is near to dead, there's hardly anyone around, let alone players around to do anything with at max level at the present time. I would call that dead. I'm still here, I'm still waiting for Megaservers - I have 3 level 50 characters and don't want to level another one, my characters are on the 'most' active EU servers and they are still horrifyingly low populated.
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To be fair, "dead" is a pretty strong word to use.  I think the word you're looking for is "unsustainable".  You don't need to be very low on players for your game to no longer be sustainable.
 
And, to be just as fair, that's not the same thing as being in the red.  There are apparently a lot of players who bought years' worth of CREDD that may as well be two people subbed at once for an entire year even if they never come back.  So unless Carbine and NCSoft blew all their money, they could have a pretty sizeable war chest.
 
It depends on how it all plays out.  I doubt they'll be done with the sub model before the drop after next if they ever are.
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Honestly, if they went F2P this quickly, before even trying to boost sub numbers, it's just proof that NCSoft doesn't have what it takes to hang with the big boys.
 
 
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Well I mean sure. You are entitled to your opinion; but if you call a man walking around, talking, and eating 'dead' people aren't going to take you seriously. W* has problems, but it's not dead by a long shot; and until the day it follows Warhammer Online to the grave, it won't be :)
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			/signed. F2P = Pay2HaveFun/Pay2Progress/Pay2Gain. Keep monthly sub. Say no to cash shops.	
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Well I mean sure. You are entitled to your opinion; but if you call a man walking around, talking, and eating 'dead' people aren't going to take you seriously. W* has problems, but it's not dead by a long shot; and until the day it follows Warhammer Online to the grave, it won't be :)
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Considering the incoming stuff on adventures and dungeons, you might get your queue times significantly reduced, if people are willing to tank and heal.  It's not like there aren't enough people sitting in the queue, it's that they're all DPS.
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Whenever anything we would have gotten access to simply from the price of our sub goes to a shop, or the game tries to make buying that a function of game design, the game has fundamentally shifted.  There's no way around it.  The game will make money from someone, and it's not going to be from a bunch of people playing for free.  There are better options.  I've suggested quite a few.  F2P is just a horrible payment system we've accepted because we're under the impression there aren't other options.
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			Cunning, I believe you want the "Sky is falling" thread which is found elsewhere.	
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But it would be a lot fiscally friendly for the modern gamer. Don't have to worry about sacrificing pizza money for game night.
 
Pizza ish gud
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It's 50 cents a day ffs
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Exactly, people love to call MMOs they stopped playing dead even though those MMOs are actually doing very well.
 
It baffles me when I hear people say that SWTOR, GW2, and other such MMOs are dead, it's probably the same crowd that calls every MMO that comes out dead because it's not a lolwowkiller.
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It's 50 cents a day ffs
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Honestly if the Devs could guarantee just short of signing in blood that if they went F2P their lore expansion, development, and workflow would be exactly the same as if it were a sub, I wouldn't mind,
 
But that's just not going to happen. That's not how it works or has ever worked. Even if they promised I wouldn't believe them.
 
Story development goes from progressing each patch, luring people in to 'tune in next time for the next chapter!' to 'Lets give them as much as we have to to keep them around and buying costumes in the store'	
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It's 50 cents a day ffs
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			Oookay...  I don't get it why people think the game will tank if it goes free to play.  I will agree some f2p models are terrible and are really p2win.   But it can be done without ruining the game.  SWTOR is a good example.  They have a subscription option and if you are subscribed you never have to deal with any f2p elements.   The C.R.E.D.D. system in this game is already pretty darn close to a f2p system.   If implemented properly it won't change the game that much at all for people who choose to pay a subscription.   	
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			I would love if the game went F2p with a good model	
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I would love if the game went F2p with a good model
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Cunning, I believe you want the "Sky is falling" thread which is found elsewhere.
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Already has a good model, is called CREDD
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			A HUGE NO!!!!!! from this pink Chua  :P	
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Already has a good model, is called CREDD
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Did WoW go and beat out Lineage as the most played MMO franchise in history already? I knew they had the most subs at a time record, but I didn't realize they breached NCSoft's player record yet (back in 2006 NCSoft had something like 43 million cumulative players for it's lineage franchise... I wouldn't be too surprised if Blizzard finally knocked them out of the top spot though.
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And I will just reiterate again, some of the people suggesting FTP are not suggesting it because they don't want to pay a sub.
 
But because they want to have people to play with.
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Dead is subjective when it comes to games. It's a little different when your talking about an actual person being dead.
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This is the sore point about cash shops (as I've brought up in this thread and the previous one).
 
X amount of time and Y amount of resources have to be devoted to the cash shop, which takes away from the time and resources spent on content. There's a legitimate worry that the majority of time and resources will be spent on cash shop items.
There's a legitimate worry that cash shop items will be aimed at getting subscribers to pay more money, rather than aimed at F2P players.
There's a legitimate worry that a monthly cash shop currency stipend for subscribers will flood the cash shop with items for subscribers to spend their cash shop currency on.
There's a legitimate worry that the cash shop will turn the game into P2W.
Most people are OK with the cash shop having only conveniences, cosmetic armor, vanity pets and mounts, but even then, many subscribers feel that everything in the cash shop should be available to subscribers in-game.
A smaller (but vocal) group of people simply balk at the idea of people being able to purchase a top hat from the cash shop even if it is available in-game.
Aside from the last point, there are ways to make a cash shop work in WildStar:
 
Given a conversion to a hybrid P2P/F2P (or B2P w/optional "Patron Status" subscription):
 
Grant subscribers/patrons conveniences that non-subscribers don't get, as well as loyalty gifts based on their length of subscription (a la Rift). Don't give them a monthly stipend of cash shop currency (a la SWTOR).
Have CREDD convert to cash shop currency when consumed, and be the only way to get that currency outside the game. Just $20 for CREDD. No special deals for X number of cash shop credits.
Have an item in the cash shop that grants 30-days of patron status and costs the amount of cash shop currency that CREDD converts to (so CREDD serves the same purpose).
Have cash shop currency gainable in-game through Achievements or other means (a la LotRO)
Ideally, don't have things in the cash shop that can't be gained in-game, but even if this isn't the case (and let's face it, it most likely woudn't be), the fact that people could gain cash shop currency in game would make it something that feels more like an in-game accomplishment.
For the love of God, no lockboxes.
 
 
Fixed that for you. Its the game itself that has to change to bring in more customers. Hopefully the megaservers and drop 3 and other changes, with a bit of marketing, will turn things around.
 
The thing is, it's not simply a matter of boosting subs, it's being able to boost subs to bring in an acceptable level of revenue. If the upcoming changes can't do that, converting the payment model is the right choice.  It may even be the right choice now, if things are that bad. We really have no idea what the state of the game is from Carbine/NCSoft's perspective.
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 I wouldn't say SE is bigger in the MMO field than NCSoft; especially since XIV almost bankrupt them.
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 Isn't the Lineage series their flagship? I feel like all the NCSoft hate comes from the fact that folks on these forums tend not to play their games much... but Guild Wars has been pretty good and lineage is a classic. As much as I love FFXI, I wouldn't say SE is bigger in the MMO field than NCSoft; especially since XIV almost bankrupt them. I get what you are saying though; I just don't buy the NCSoft hate. 
They have maintained some great games, and axed some that weren't working for them. Personally, between B&S and W* I can't hate NCSoft any more than Blizzard or SE.... and Definitely not more than EA... RIP Warhammer :(
 
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Quite the contrary, FFXIV saved them from bankruptcy.
http://www.xivnation.com/news/ffxiv-saves-square-enix/
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Quite the contrary, FFXIV saved them from bankruptcy.
http://www.xivnation.com/news/ffxiv-saves-square-enix/
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What everyone else said: No F2P. Screw that business model and everyone that supports it. F2P isn't a business model that should be supported. It's business model that we should be ashamed of. It either needs to make hefty changes to make it fair for consumers or it needs to go away completely.
 
And stop bringing up SWTOR as an example of a successful F2P game, please. That game nickel and dimes the crap out of its players that it's almost unreal what they can get away with. The only reason it's a "success" is because it has powerful brand name behind it: STAR WARS.
 
It's freaking Star Wars and there's a billion of Star Wars fans out there that just play it because they can be a Jedi or Sith Lord or whatever.	
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What everyone else said: No F2P. Screw that business model and everyone that supports it. F2P isn't a business model that should be supported. It's business model that we should be ashamed of. It either needs to make hefty changes to make it fair for consumers or it needs to go away completely.
 
And stop bringing up SWTOR as an example of a successful F2P game, please. That game nickel and dimes the crap out of its players that it's almost unreal what they can get away with. The only reason it's a "success" is because it has powerful brand name behind it: STAR WARS.
 
It's freaking Star Wars and there's a billion of Star Wars fans out there that just play it because they can be a Jedi or Sith Lord or whatever.
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What everyone else said: No F2P. Screw that business model and everyone that supports it. F2P isn't a business model that should be support. It's business model that we should be ashamed of.
 
And stop bringing up SWTOR as an example of a successful F2P game, please. That game nickel and dimes the crap out of its players that it's almost unreal what they can get away with. The only reason it's a "success" is because it has powerful brand name behind it: STAR WARS.
 
It's freaking Star Wars and there's a billion of Star Wars fans out there that just play it because they can be a Jedi or Sith Lord or whatever.
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Look, I don't particularly like SWTOR's F2P model, but there's no denying that switching to a hybrid P2P/F2P model pulled SWTOR out of the slump it was in and that it's been very successful since then. It's not all F2P players either. Half of the players (about 500,000) are subscribers.
 
And as has been pointed out, there are other games with hybrid P2P/F2P models that are better than the one SWTOR uses. I'm not saying I want WildStar to go F2P, but I don't think it's going to be the end of the game as we know it, if it does.
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It's because they leave you no choice but to sub.
Want to use a mount? Either sub or buy the unlock in the cash shop
Want to equip epics? Either sub or buy the unlock in the cash shop
Want to raid? Either sub or buy the unlock in the cash shop
Want to do PvP? Either sub or buy the unlock in the cash shop
Want to level at the normal rate? Either sub or buy the unlock in the cash shop
Want to have that specific story companion? Either sub or buy the unlock
They run an extremely hard F2P model, and as Razzi said, they are getting away with it simply due the massive star wars fans playing the game.
Because let's be honest: they have the sole star wars position, there's no alternative.
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I play SWTOR and I can tell you, everything you just listed can be purchased by free players without a single real penny being dropped. All one would need to do is farm in game currency and purchase the unlocks off the player market. It's only harsh if you're too impatient to farm the credits. And frankly, if you're uncomfortable with spending time in game doing something for a big pay out, isn't it a tad contradictory to the whole "Hardcore" theme of hardcores being loyal players who enjoy spending as much time playing as possible, hence why Wildstar drew in it's niche in the first place?
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This was not the case when they launched the market.
I was subbed for about 6 months afterwards, so I never had to buy the items myself, but I still find the whole scheme in swTOR to be too hard. But it works for them, so they'll keep it running.
And please stop dragging in this hardcore-crap. My oppinion is my own, and it's best to leave it at that.
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Look at the LOTRO market sometime. It's so much more expensive and you'll eventually get to where you can't even quest in normal zones without buying the unlock
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This was not the case when they launched the market.
I was subbed for about 6 months afterwards, so I never had to buy the items myself, but I still find the whole scheme in swTOR to be too hard. But it works for them, so they'll keep it running.
And please stop dragging in this hardcore-crap. My oppinion is my own, and it's best to leave it at that.
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I actually didn't know that.  I know FFXI is the most profitable FF game of all time for SE and still pulls its weight with its subscription base.  I knew that FFXIV: ARR was a huge financial boon to the company.  I didn't know that FFXIV 1.0 saved them from bankruptcy.  If that report was from the year ending in 2013, that would be talking about 1.0.
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One can't say it's a failure because it lost so many subs that it had to go F2P, on one hand, and then say that it's only in the top 5 MMORPGs now because it's Star Wars, on the other. I mean, being Star Wars didn't save it from having to go F2P.
 
Look, I don't particularly like SWTOR's F2P model, but there's no denying that switching to a hybrid P2P/F2P model pulled SWTOR out of the slump it was in and that it's been very successful since then. It's not all F2P players either. Half of the players (about 500,000) are subscribers.
 
And as has been pointed out, there are other games with hybrid P2P/F2P models that are better than the one SWTOR uses. I'm not saying I want WildStar to go F2P, but I don't think it's going to be the end of the game as we know it, if it does.
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Well no, I meant from v2.0 on. Still I dont think FFXIV (1.0) was the main reason SE was in trouble. I remember reading something about Sleeping Dogs and/or Tomb Raider being the main reason. They sold plenty of copies but the development costs were so high they barely broke even.
 
FFXIV (1.0) got murdered by the critics so I doubt it helped, but the game still had its niche. Sold enough copies to keep it above water while they prepared for Realm Reborn, as B2P no less, for over a year IIRC.
 
Anyway, off-topic...
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Same with Ragnarok Online 2, where you're forced to buy something from the Cash Shop to complete your main story quest line.
So Yes, F2P : No thank you.
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Yeah, because people kept buying duplicates and charging obscene items for a quick payday. When it turned out that Freebies couldn't afford it (like most new and fancy items on a player market) the prices dropped and became affordable. Now SWTOR is at a comfortable place finacially and even the aspect of being considered noncanon hasn't impacted it's playerbase.
 
And it's hard not to drag in the hardcore crap, considering people claim to hate F2P because it panders to the "casual masses" who are entitled and want now and blah blah blah.
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It's because they leave you no choice but to sub.
Want to use a mount? Either sub or buy the unlock in the cash shop
Want to equip epics? Either sub or buy the unlock in the cash shop
Want to raid? Either sub or buy the unlock in the cash shop
Want to do PvP? Either sub or buy the unlock in the cash shop
Want to level at the normal rate? Either sub or buy the unlock in the cash shop
Want to have that specific story companion? Either sub or buy the unlock
They run an extremely hard F2P model, and as Razzi said, they are getting away with it simply due the massive star wars fans playing the game.
Because let's be honest: they have the sole star wars position, there's no alternative.
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Well, like I said, I'm not a fan of SWTOR's F2P model. There are certainly better ways of doing it. My point is that if SWTOR hadn't switched to a hybrid model, being Star Wars wouldn't have saved it, so it isn't successful now only because it's Star Wars. The hybrid model is a big part of it.
 
/Please, Olivar, don't make me argue with you - it feels wrong :D
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			you smell something?	
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I play SWTOR and I can tell you, everything you just listed can be purchased by free players without a single real penny being dropped. All one would need to do is farm in game currency and purchase the unlocks off the player market. It's only harsh if you're too impatient to farm the credits. And frankly, if you're uncomfortable with spending time in game doing something for a big pay out, isn't it a tad contradictory to the whole "Hardcore" theme of hardcores being loyal players who enjoy spending as much time playing as possible, hence why Wildstar drew in it's niche in the first place?
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Non-subscribers have a cap on how many credits they can hold (something like 300k - when I quit before the conversion I had well over 2 million).  Are you telling me that every single item sold by other players on the market is priced within that cap?  I really doubt it.
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I don't understand why people are so against F2P.  Usually when MMOs go F2P nothing changes for subscribers (if anything, things usually improve with additional perks in order to encourage people to sub).  F2P can be done really, really well and enhance your game as a subscriber rather than impact it negatively.
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The question is whether the players benefited with a better quality game for a lower price.
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			I'll add my no to this list, but I think this will end up being a business choice. And no one said the business side of the company was listening. 	
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Well considering the alternative, having the game shut down... I'd say yes the answer is unquestionably yes, they have a better quality game now. I know STO improved drastically in terms of pure quality over what they had as a sub based game.
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Well considering the alternative, having the game shut down... I'd say yes the answer is unquestionably yes, they have a better quality game now. I know STO improved drastically in terms of pure quality over what they had as a sub based game.
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Heh, this is still going...
 
So far, I think the only argument against transitioning to F2P that I can understand and support would be the division of labor argument.
 
It has been proven by other games, not with hard data, but purely through subjective experience that the quantity and quality of future content tends to slow down fairly drastically after a Cash Shop becomes the primary source of income for an MMO.  It does take time and money to keep a Cash Shop fully stocked with items that would appeal to the "impulse shopper".  That is time that is not being devoted to the development of substantive new playable content.
 
Most of the other arguments I've seen on this thread (and the other 2) seem pretty circular or downright unsubstantiated.
 
Example 1:  F2P is not actually F2P, you can play but you don't have to pay, but to play the right way you have to pay, so P2P is better because you have to pay just to play and that makes it the best way (Sorry, can't stop the flow!).
 
Example 2:  F2P has cash walls that you have to pay for after playing, P2P does not have cash walls because you have to pay just to log in (how is that not a cash wall?).
 
Example 3:  F2P invites TOXIC COMMUNITIES (Dun dun DUUUN!!), so we refer to F2P players as "free loaders" to inspire a friendlier atmosphere...
 
Example 4:  F2P might bring more people into the game, but it will be the death of the game (because more people = less successful)
 
Example 5:  Cash Shops are "P2W" (because winning in an MMO is defined as "having a cool looking character" and paying for cosmetic items = WIN)
 
Example 6:  F2P costs MORE than P2P because 1 month someone might spend $30 dollars on cosmetic stuff while with P2P $15 a month you are only charged monthly for as long as you play... but on your 3rd month you have now spend $45 extra on your $60 game purchase... which we all know is waaay CHEAPER!
 
Example 7:  To get the best experience from a F2P MMO you need to use the optional Subscription that is offered to have full access to the playable content, and that is bad, so P2P is better because the Subscription is mandatory.
 
Example 8:  F2P has Cash Shops, Cash Shops have Stuff, Now I have to pay MORE just to play the game!  (Do people levy the same complaints at Wal-Mart "AH! I walked in there and all these things were on the shelves so I was forced to buy EVERYTHING I SAW... crap, now I'm in debt... Screw you Wal-Mart! It's all your fault!").
 
Example 9:  People that want F2P just want to play for Free because they're cheap... yet the game has C.R.E.D.D. and people play using that for months at a time... and everyone posting on this forum is a subscriber so... someone is still paying for this, money is still changing hands.
 
Example 10:  I'll have to compensate for the "freeloaders" (because someone is holding a gun to your head?)
 
All in all though, I would prefer that the development teams focused their efforts on larger amounts of higher quality content as opposed to tending to the Cash Shop with a large chunk of their revenue, so I don't mind paying a sub-fee.	
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 Example 8:  F2P has Cash Shops, Cash Shops have Stuff, Now I have to pay MORE just to play the game!  (Do people levy the same complaints at Wal-Mart "AH! I walked in there and all these things were on the shelves so I was forced to buy EVERYTHING I SAW... crap, now I'm in debt... Screw you Wal-Mart! It's all your fault!").
 
If WalMart had a $15 monthly fee where you could walk in and take anything and everything they had in stock that you needed or wanted to use for that month (clothes, groceries, snacks, TVs, computers, etc.), would that not be preferable to walking in and paying the same $15 for one T-Shirt?
 
Example 9:  People that want F2P just want to play for Free because they're cheap... yet the game has C.R.E.D.D. and people play using that for months at a time... and everyone posting on this forum is a subscriber so... someone is still paying for this, money is still changing hands.
 
CREDD is a different concept from a Cash Shop (which is essentially synonymous with F2P at this point). As to why I'm opposed to Cash Shops, see above.
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I wouldn't even mind a cash shop in the game right now, if it had cool costumes and dyes, things of that nature.
 
Just not a P2W, purely cosmetic.	
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STO also became P2W with all the new ships they introduce in the cash shop.
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No there's not... There's two conditions, one of which is IMO vastly superior to the other. I didn't say there were no other options, only given the two I listed, the game shutting down vs F2P, I'd prefer F2P.
 
Perhaps there were other ways that SWTOR could of gone, but that depends on EA being willing to think outside the box, which doesn't seem to be common for most if any Publisher out there.
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I felt these two required a response.
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Between shutting down and F2P, it really doesn't matter to me which. I won't be playing in either event.
 
I'm sure the developers themselves would rather the game not shut down, however.	
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Dunno I think F2P is inevitable for this game, MMO's don't magically bounce back from the type of population loss this game has gone through. I saw these doom and gloom threads about F2P on other games forums as they made the transition or it was realized by the community that it was inevitable the game would be F2P in a matter of time. Anyhow you know what changes for F2P in 99% of these games for subscribers? Absolutely nothing and if anything it boosts the player count substantially and subscribers/people that bought the game usually get something extra a bonus if you will for continuing to subscribe etc. Anyhow people who hate F2P etc especially vehemently likely haven't played or experienced one enough to really know what they are talking about. The most recent transition I went through was in SWTOR, and really when F2P launched you know what changed for subs? Absolutely nothing the subscriber experience was exactly the same if not improved, yes I don't think some parts of there F2P system are very well done especially the limitations put on the F2P/Preferred players, but as a sub to SWTOR nothing changed whatsoever. 
 
There is a negative connotation with F2P in the MMO community and most of it's unwarranted as nothing changes for subscribers when games go F2P if anything it improves as it did in Rift/Tera/SWTOR. Basically a lot of people that yell they will quit if a game goes F2P haven't tried a F2P MMO to realize there is nothing different between them and a sub based MMO for the most part outside of cosmetic stuff on the cash shop which doesn't give anyone a Pay To Win advantage which seams to be the common fear of people when F2P is discussed it's just fluff and some convenience items like XP boosts, which don't hurt the game at all. 
 
TLDR: F2P isn't the end of the world and if it comes down to F2P or closing down the game I'm sure most of you would prefer a F2P system to keep the game alive. F2P in western MMO's isn't Pay 2 Win by any means using Tera/Rift/SWTOR as examples it was simply fluff/costumes/mounts, and some convenience items like XP boosts so it's not the end of the world. 	
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It's all a matter of perspective really.  I was addressing this asinine notion that people express when they say that it will cost more because the stuff exists.  Yes it's there, but no, it's not a mandatory purchase.  So, it costs only as much as a person is willing to pay... and in a F2P it would actually be closer to $5 for that shirt, not $15 (besides the point though, I think I can work with it).
 
But! Since we're exploring a different interpretation on what I said, we'll go ahead and call it a matter of perspective, regarding this hypothetical Wal-Mart with a sub-fee :)
 
Perspectively speaking, let's say hypothetically that not everyone wants everything that is offered by this Wal-Mart?  Let's say, for the sake of argument that I don't care if the game goes F2P or not, I'll play either way... I mean, for the sake of argument that there are people who only want that ONE shirt, not all, because that shirt is the one thing that they find appealing in the whole store.
 
Now, would it make more sense to:
1) Spend $15 a month on a subscription fee, receive that one shirt in the first month of membership and then continue spending $15 a month for the next 3 months after the first, just waiting for another shirt that might be just as good or better for an aggregate total of $60 on $30 worth of things you like, or;
 
2) Make a one-time expenditure of $15 on that one totally awesome shirt and be allowed to come and go from the Wal-Mart as you please, periodically checking in and browsing the other wares until that next new awesome shirt comes in a 6 months later, and purchase that for $15 for an aggregate total of $30 for $30 worth of shirts? <- So, it took a little extra time, but as a customer I didn't have to spend an extra $30 dollars on stuff I didn't want or use ;)
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 Now, would it make more sense to:1) Spend $15 a month on a subscription fee, receive that one shirt in the first month of membership and then continue spending $15 a month for the next 3 months after the first, just waiting for another shirt that might be just as good or better for an aggregate total of $60 on $30 worth of things you like, or;
 
2) Make a one-time expenditure of $15 on that one totally awesome shirt and be allowed to come and go from the Wal-Mart as you please, periodically checking in and browsing the other wares until that next new awesome shirt comes in a 6 months later, and purchase that for $15 for an aggregate total of $30 for $30 worth of shirts? <- So, it took a little extra time, but as a customer I didn't have to spend an extra $30 dollars on stuff I didn't want or use ;)
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If you're in this particular wal mart for one shirt, you won't stay or spend money here if you can only wear that shirt in this wal mart.
 
It's in any hypothetical wal mart's best interest to make sure you will want more than one shirt.
 
Essentially, there's some kind of sweet spot where you don't spend 15 dollars a month.  If that's what ends up happening, the game still fails.  They need to be obviously making a LOT more money.  They don't do that by attracting a bunch of people that don't want to buy anything.  Essentially, the reason SWTOR makes a lot of money off their cash shop by not being F2P is by making damn sure people visit it and buy more than 15 dollars a month worth of stuff.
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If you're in this particular wal mart for one shirt, you won't stay or spend money here if you can only wear that shirt in this wal mart.
 
It's in any hypothetical wal mart's best interest to make sure you will want more than one shirt.
 
Essentially, there's some kind of sweet spot where you don't spend 15 dollars a month.  If that's what ends up happening, the game still fails.  They need to be obviously making a LOT more money.  They don't do that by attracting a bunch of people that don't want to buy anything.  Essentially, the reason SWTOR makes a lot of money off their cash shop by not being F2P is by making damn sure people visit it and buy more than 15 dollars a month worth of stuff.
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There's no question. #1 wins. Your statement of #1 is assuming that the T-shirt is the only piece of merchandise I'm interested in. In reality, I'm getting that awesome T-shirt, a new PC, a TV, a set of tires, and groceries for a month.
 
WalMart may consider Chua underpants and groceries as necessary for life, so they continue handing those out for free. Fine, but what about my PC, TV, and tires? Suddenly, I have to pay more for those?
 
Option #2 is only better if you are willing to limit the merchandise you're interested in, instead of being able to run rampant down the isles sampling everything you can get your hands on.
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Except, no game has ever faced just those two, it has never been that a game goes F2P or dies.  There are a half dozen models that never get tried, just a combination of subs, cash shops, and B2P.
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			I'm not rich but reading some of these posts that are supporting F2P make me feel rich. I get a ton of hours of entertainment from this game a month for 15 bucks. When compared to what I would spend going to the bar, going out to eat and hanging out with friends or family. Going to a movie etc... 15 dollars a month is pretty damn cheap for the amount of entertainment the game provides me. I can drop 15 bucks on 1 meal easily going out to eat and that would be pretty cheap these days... Thats just 1 meal. I can also spend under 50 cents on 1 meal if I want to but the quality of the meal is way lower. You get what you pay for. Ante up cupcakes! :D	
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			I hope Carbine has the same philosophy as Yoshi P. does for FFXIV because Yoshi P. said in a interview that he would rather shut down FFXIV than have it go F2P.	
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			I resubbed to the game on Tuesday of this week to do some PVP.....I have yet to have a PVP queue pop in the lower brackets. I have spent 180+ min in queue on mutliple occaisioins (with screenshots to prove it) before I finally logged off in disappointment. I dunno if F2P is the answer, but they better damn well do something, because seeing as PVP is cross server, the whole mega server thing isn't gonna do squat to aliviate that...	
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I hope Carbine has the same philosophy as Yoshi P. does for FFXIV because Yoshi P. said in a interview that he would rather shut down FFXIV than have it go F2P.
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I'm not rich but reading some of these posts that are supporting F2P make me feel rich. I get a ton of hours of entertainment from this game a month for 15 bucks. When compared to what I would spend going to the bar, going out to eat and hanging out with friends or family. Going to a movie etc... 15 dollars a month is pretty damn cheap for the amount of entertainment the game provides me. I can drop 15 bucks on 1 meal easily going out to eat and that would be pretty cheap these days... Thats just 1 meal. I can also spend under 50 cents on 1 meal if I want to but the quality of the meal is way lower. You get what you pay for. Ante up cupcakes! :D
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Agreed, $15 dollars a month isn't a lot of money for entertainment.  At least, it's not a major barrier to people that know they enjoy the game and know they are going to play it.
 
I think, on the other hand, and it's really just speculation to be honest, it becomes an insurmountable barrier to someone who has previously cancelled their sub for whatever reason, and now are thinking about renewing their sub, but are on the fence because they don't want to shell out $15 just to find out that whatever caused them to stop playing in the first place was never addressed/fixed.
 
Also, for other people who haven't tried it at all, there might be a concern associated with paying $60 and then another $15 each month without knowing for sure that they will actually get their money's worth out of it, so they just avoid it altogether in lieu of other games that they know for sure they will like/don't have to pay monthly for, and ultimately never find out if they actually enjoy this game or not.
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One thing to bring up though is who that F2P model is good for.  Seems like it was good for revenue, so Bioware could make back money.  The question is whether the players benefited with a better quality game for a lower price.
 
I'll say this right now, I highly doubt that Wildstar will go F2P and give we current subscribers a better quality game for a truly lower price.  We're getting one or the other with that switch, Wildstar's not Age of Conan.
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Also, for other people who haven't tried it at all, there might be a concern associated with paying $60 and then another $15 each month without knowing for sure that they will actually get their money's worth out of it, so they just avoid it altogether in lieu of other games that they know for sure they will like/don't have to pay monthly for, and ultimately never find out if they actually enjoy this game or not.
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			Not trying persuade anyone but F2P isn't for me.  I hope W.S. does not go that way. 	
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Free trials... WS needs it. And more than the friend keys. Full-blown "permanent free trial to level 15" or whatever.
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for all the good it will do, I am vehemently opposed to F2P for this game
 
never seen it have any benefit for my play style nor have I seen it bring in anything other than a toxic and irresponsible community. after all, why be responsible if you will not lose money for being a complete jerk?	
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			No to F2P! I'd probably cancel my sub immediately if they made the announcement.	
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I hope Carbine has the same philosophy as Yoshi P. does for FFXIV because Yoshi P. said in a interview that he would rather shut down FFXIV than have it go F2P.
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Free trials... WS needs it. And more than the friend keys. Full-blown "permanent free trial to level 15" or whatever.
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Maybe knock a bit off the box price, but with CREDD the game is already as good as ftp and even supports "gold buyers" to an extent and we dont even have to put up with the spam that usually goes with it.
As soon as an mmo goes ftp the exploiters/hackers/illegitimate gold buyers take over and the land you saw that was covered with blue skies and sunshine soon disapears and turns into a desolate place with storm clouds and sleet, not much fun for anyone. Also paying constant small amounts of $ in the shop soon adds up to way more then what the sub would have been anyway, so either be rich or lose.	
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That's not true. There's were a number of new ships you could earn without touching the cash shop. Like a number of the Romulan ships. 
This is the problem with some of the Anti-F2P types, they make statements that are not only wrong, but easily proven wrong. It actually harms the whole argument being made. 
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Yes, the old "if I don't get what I want, I'll take my toys and go home" approach does so well in keeping a business running. Sinking a company over something so petty sure looks good on a resume.          
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I really depends on how they do it. Regarding SWTOR, they have 1 million monthly players and half of those are subscribers (who aren't paying a lower price for the game than they did before). And it seems like they did increase their subscriber base since they went F2P, so if BioWare is bringing in more money from subs than they did before they shifted to the hybrid model, it must be doing pretty well as far as subscribers are concerned.
 
I've mentioned my issue with giving a monthly cash shop currency stipend to subscribers vis a vis how it affects what's in the cash shop and how it entices subscribers to spend more, but in SWTOR's defense, a lot of what is in the cash shop makes its way to the AH and savvy subscribers can often buy a lot of things off the AH and save their monthly stipend up for the more expensive things in the cash shop, so something is working for subscribers. You also have to subscribe to raid, but, let's face it, people who raid are usually among those who stay subscribed to a game that converts to a hybrid model anyway.
 
I don't want WildStar to have to shift to a different payment model, but as I've also mentioned before, if it does, I'd prefer something like what Rift does vis a vis subscribers (conveniences and tiered loyalty benefits) and F2P model, and what LOTRO does vis a vis earning cash shop currency in-game (but not their F2P model or monthly stipend for subscribers). I certainly wouldn't want WildStar to shift to a purely F2P model, and I think when most people talk about "going F2P" they tend to mean "hybrid," not purely F2P.
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No to F2P! I'd probably cancel my sub immediately if they made the announcement.
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No to F2P! I'd probably cancel my sub immediately if they made the announcement.
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It wouldn't sink NCSoft. They have other games running fine.
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That's what I did in SWtOR when they made their F2P announcement, then went it went live I went to my bank and filed for a charge back, it took a few weeks but I got my money back for the box and months subscribed. I'll do it again here!
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I hope Carbine has the same philosophy as Yoshi P. does for FFXIV because Yoshi P. said in a interview that he would rather shut down FFXIV than have it go F2P.
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This game sounds more and more interesting every time I read good things about it in Carbine forums. 
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I don't do F2P. It's a cesspit.
 
I think Wildstar is honestly the most enjoyable MMORPG I've played since vanilla WoW, but f2p would drive me away instantly.	
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			I played Star Wars TOR and it has a free to play model. I don't think the F2P model is bad, as long as its a freemium model. Play to win though, NO.	
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			No to F2P.Wildstar deserves much better. Hang on in there!	
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I played Star Wars TOR and it has a free to play model. I don't think the F2P model is bad, as long as its a freemium model. Play to win though, NO.
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Well duh...
 
If Wildstar went F2P the server connectivity would suffer terribly and completely ruin the game.
Kiiiinda the same as FFXIV what with the telegraphed attacks and the 1 hit wonders.
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			For all to manage your expectations,  in the long run, it doesn't matter how we "feel", it matters how WS/Carbine is performing to NCSoft's bottom line.  NCSoft will be the real determiner to the fate of WS. <_<	
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Wouldn't necessarily ruin it, unless you're one of the people who thinks every MMO besides WoW is dead. FFXIV is actually THRIVING right now, regardless of the problems it might have/might have had.
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			I'll say no to F2P, for me WildStar is essentially B2P at this point. Bought the deluxe edition and haven't paid for a sub yet. I feel like people who want the game to go F2P are just those that are not willing to cough up that initial cost. It's worth it! 	
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XIV isn't free-to-play...
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