Report 1270

Report #1270
Skillset: Sacraments Skill: Inquisition
 Org: Shofangi Status: Completed Sept 2013
Furies' Decision:
Solutions 1 and 2.
Problem: Inquisition is currently a tad too strong in groups due to how quickly
a team of sacraments users can inquisition someone. On the other hand
inquisition is weak for use by knights using sacraments because it diverts them
from power attacks and does not prevent stancing and parrying while
inquisitioned, and is weak for healer/sacraments celestines because there is no
viable kill method left to them even if they manage to inquisiton someone.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #1: Reduce the effectiveness of inquisition in group
 combat by causing infidel to close off the heretic
 aura so that another person cannot immediately
 inquisition off of the heretic aura. Credit goes to
 Placeus for this insight into the mechanics of
 inquisition.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #2: Solution one and to assist knights, cause inquisition
 to reset parry to zero (I believe it already resets
 stance since it counts as a defense), suppress
 natural dodging while under the effects of
 inquisition.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #3: Solution two and to assist (healer) celestines,
 change the power cost of an absolve cast at a target
 you've inquisitioned to 1p.
Player Comments:
---[Wobou on 9/8 @ 01:54 writes]:
This is a redo of report 1247, I decided to redo it to keep things clean and
keep the old report so folks could see the old comments. I will delete the other
report once this has been either approved or denied.
---[Kio on 9/8 @ 04:07 writes]:
Solution 1 sounds fine. Solution 2 seems a little off, but I am unsure of the
mechanics at work and will research before making any claims. Solution 3,
however, is absolutely not acceptable. While this would, indeed, be an immense
boon to Healer Celestines, it would prove to be far, far too powerful in
combination with Tarot and might serve to skew power in a group setting. As it
is, simply heretic and infidel are enough to remove someone from a fight, as
they must scamper off and let it fade away before returning. Allowing it to lead
to absolves with such a mechanically high success rate is simply too much.
Frankly, Healers do not need help. Tarot and Astrology users are in good places
offensively. Healing isn't meant to be a tertiary you take if you want all the
kills. It's meant to keep you alive and offer group support. There is no need to
buff its offensive power, as it is quite literally the king of defensive skills.
There is no need to make a Healer Celestine both unkillable and -that-
dangerous.
---[Shuyin on 9/8 @ 05:08 writes]:
1 + 2 only
---[Thoros on 9/8 @ 20:45 writes]:
Solutions 1 and 2 supported. No to 3
---[Shuyin on 9/9 @ 19:44 writes]:
Ps definite no to 3
---[Xenthos on 9/10 @ 03:11 writes]:
Per my comments on report 1247: Solution 1 is required. Solution 2 I am
skeptical about, since parry -cannot- be moved when inquisitioned (giving a
knight a large advantage already, and the knight can then use actions to prone
to take further advantage). Solution 3 is an absolutely overpowered addition
which would completely break Celestine combat, allowing absurdly easy
combinations to get to absolve (as there would be no need to ever have to hold
back power, you'll get that 1p back by the time inquisition fades).
---[Yurika on 9/11 @ 20:34 writes]:
This is -much- better I think. Although, I don't think solution one should tie
into solution two which ties into solution three if I'm reading this right. I
like Solution two and three minus the additional solutions of the priors.
---[Xenthos on 9/11 @ 22:58 writes]:
Wow, no. Just no. There is absolutely NO WAY that solution three should ever
be implemented, much less be implemented without solution one. You could have
two people put the inqui-chain together for 1-p absolves. That is absolutely
insane.
---[Shuyin on 9/11 @ 23:42 writes]:
So you want the buffs to inquisition without reducing its group combat
effectiveness...yeah...definite no to 3. if you want to make absolves easier, i
would rather redesign inqui as an affliction completely.
---[Wobou on 9/13 @ 00:10 writes]:
I don't understand the opposition to Sol. 2. I'm basically saying that parry
should be treated as a defense for this and should be stripped. It doesn't make
sense either thematically or in game balance that everything else gets stripped
but you can still parry while stunned. And there is a reason I chained
everything off of solution 1, reducing the effectiveness of group-quisition is
the point of this report, I was just hoping to trade off that nerf for some
offense in another area.
---[Thoros on 9/13 @ 15:24 writes]:
I agree that parrying should be stripped, it technically is a sort of defense
(and makes no sense themeatically to be able to parry while you're stunned from
the inquisition
---[Kio on 9/13 @ 16:31 writes]:
@Wobou: I understand the desire to exchange a nerf for a buff, but often times
doing that is unneeded. Being unable to change your parry will allow a knight to
focus a specific limb or area, and a simple beast spit mantakaya at the start of
the inquisition will enable parry null.
---[Rivius on 9/14 @ 00:09 writes]:
If I had to be honest, people shouldn't be able to build off of auras opened by
other people if we really want to change its group combat effectiveness. That's
honestly the most needed thing in my eyes.
---[Rivius on 9/14 @ 00:14 writes]:
That said, solution 1 is a...somewhat acceptable substitute I suppose, but the
ideal would be that the caster of inquisition should be the caster of Heretic
and Infidel.
---[Xenthos on 9/14 @ 01:48 writes]:
... wait, wait. Report 1247 said that specifically. I guess I missed that this
one changed that. I have to agree with Rivius, that original solution is the
one that was needed. When I said that solution 1 was required, I was talking
about solution 1 of 1247, not this watered-down... thing (though now I am even
more confused as to why Yurika would have argued against it, it's not even much
of a nerf at all in its present form- a very slight additional delay but still
allowing for tag-teaming of the progression).
---[Xenthos on 9/14 @ 01:54 writes]:
Basically: Sacrifice needed to not be tag-teamable. It was made so.
Inquisition similarly needs to be made not tag-teamable. Simple problem, simple
solution. It doesn't need buffs or sops to make it more desireable after this,
it's an extraordinarily powerful ability when prepared and used right. It
should not also be an easy lock-down button in group fights. It will still be
-every bit as powerful- in 1v1 fighting, as making it not tagteamable will not
nerf it at all there. The change only fixes its impact in groups, and that's
needed.
---[Thoros on 9/14 @ 02:12 writes]:
Heretic/Infidel/Inqui should not be tag teamable yes. I thought that was the aim
of this report. iguess I didn't look over it right heh. Only in support of
solution 1/2 if changed to the caster of heretic must be the same caster as
infidel and inqui instead of just infidel
---[Shuyin on 9/14 @ 06:44 writes]:
I support inquisition needing to be done by the person who cast heretic/infidel
as well. This is a good addition instead of solution 1
---[Xenthos on 9/14 @ 11:34 writes]:
I'm pretty sure that's the case with most of us commenting here, Thoros. I
imagine we all just saw it as a repeat of the last report and didn't realize
that Sol1 changed (especially with the first comment pretty much implying it was
the same report). Oh well.
---[Wobou on 9/14 @ 17:57 writes]:
I was swayed by Placeus's arguments about the nerf I had proposed before and the
differences between crux and inquisition, especially given that several of you
aren't for stripping parry which I think is about the smallest buff that you
could give to Inquisition. Let's do this smaller nerf (and potentially small
buff) and see how inquisition is used in group combat. If it's still felt to be
too strong then we can address it again.
---[Xenthos on 9/14 @ 18:29 writes]:
I disagree that a buff is even necessary- it is very powerful, and you want to
increase its efficacy in 1v1 without reducing it in any sense there. I further
disagree that this "smaller nerf" is addressing the problem that you yourself
put forth. It still allows for tag-teaming the chain up to share the load and
push it at the absolute fastest possible rate (no need to wait for power
recovery). Why not just fix it the first time?
---[Thoros on 9/14 @ 18:32 writes]:
^ what Xenthos said. Fix it the first time. DOesn't need to be fixed 500 times -
just once heh.
---[Thoros on 9/14 @ 18:32 writes]:
But I still agree it should strip parry, but then again it's so easy to bypass
parry with a simple proning or beast spit mantakaya - i dont know, i'm both
sides on this.
---[Kio on 9/15 @ 02:04 writes]:
Any decision made on Inquisition by comparing it to Crucify is going to be a
poor decision. The skills serve different purposes all together. Even at their
core, they are leagues apart. I do not understand the need to compare opposing
skills and suggest that the abilities within them should be similar in the
slightest. In this particular instance, just the basic principle of the skills
are inherently and fundamentally different. Inquisition is a massive effect
rewarded for patience, persistence, and reaction with a lasting, persistent
effect (in stripping most defenses), whereas Crucify is an instant, short-
lasting burst which must be perpetuated by the caster to achieve its maximum
potential (via ectoplasm and balance-loss stacking). The two abilities needn't
be compared. Frankly, if you wish to compare them by themselves, it seems a
logical conclusion is that since Inquisition is far more powerful than Crucify
in both solo and group situations (as even a flawlessly executed balance-
loss/crux combo can be screwed up by RNG passive tics and Inquisition cannot),
Crucify should be buffed.
---[Kio on 9/15 @ 02:09 writes]:
That said, the problem is when you compare the tandem skills able to be used in
tandem. Inquisition gives the reward of an enemy being robbed of all defenses
and incapable of moving away from a meteor or soulless fling for, quite
literally, only having to track someone and time your attacks. Crucify, however,
only provides a similar benefit when the caster applies skillful timing,
tracking of opponent cures, and preparation. Even then, Crucify's benefits are
not nearly as great as those offered by Inquisition - especially in a group
setting. While Crucify might be able to prone someone for a few seconds, just
the pre-Inquisition stages (heretic and infidel) can remove someone from a fight
completely, as the only cure to them is time. Any buff to Inquisition is a buff
that is not necessary, for group -or- solo combat. Frankly, Paladins who choose
Sacraments should be elated that they actually have skills in their tertiary
-worth- using, and should also understand the benefits of becoming a defensive
powerhouse far outweigh the fact that Inquisition doesn't remove parry.
---[Thoros on 9/15 @ 03:25 writes]:
Nice, okay. Kio has convinced me as of why inquisition should not strip parry.
Didn't really look at it in that way.
---[Wobou on 9/16 @ 00:52 writes]:
@Kio: Placeus's arguments are basically the same as yours in terms of treating
the skills differently. Where in this report do I mention sac crux as
justification or comparison for anything? This report is in response to many
people saying that group inquisition was too strong because it could be achieved
to quickly. I think solution 1 will adequately address that problem and if it
doesn't then another report can be made to perform the harsher nerf I was
initially going to suggest. @Thoros/Xenthos: It's convenient to say fix it once
when it's a nerf to a skill that you don't possess. Balance is best done with a
series of small changes to calibrate things, not big ones. Sometimes things are
so out of whack that you have no choice but to aim for a big change, I don't
think this qualifies for that. No one has actually made a counter argument for
why Solution 2 would be some ridiculous buff or why it makes sense thematically
but it's such a small part of this report that I'm not going to bother restating
my case.
---[Shuyin on 9/16 @ 01:31 writes]:
You should know by now that nerfs are much harder to do (as it rightly should
be) when it's to a skillset you don't possess. That line of justification
shouldn't be really used here, in my opinion
---[Synkarin on 9/16 @ 01:37 writes]:
I'm remain unconvinced that delaying the aura window will solve the group
inquisition problem. All that does is delay when your buddy can put up
inquisition after you infidel. It doesn't solve anything other than slowing it
down by a few seconds, which in group combat, is pretty easy to hinder someone
long enough to get that. Even if you manage to get away, you are still removed
from the group and no longer contributing to the fight. It removes the 'wait'
for power that is seen in 1v1 and balances the skill around 1v1. I'm not
convinced that it goes far enough to solve the issue, and feel it's more of a
divert solution to maintain inquisitions strength. It's incredibly strong and
making the infidel/inquisition chain at least the same person solves the issue
while not affecting 1v1 combat at all. I would prefer to see that case than this
change that doesn't do anything other than delay the inquisition a few moments
---[Xenthos on 9/16 @ 02:21 writes]:
Solution 1 will not solve that problem because it will -still be done too
quickly-. It will just be done on the next available window, instead of slammed
in all at once. There is no need to wait for power recovery, no need to stretch
things out a bit. This change -will not affect solo combat at all-. It will
only fix the skill in groups, and solution 1 just does not do what you say it
will.
---[Xenthos on 9/16 @ 02:23 writes]:
Basically, you let yourself get talked out of fixing the skill by someone who
doesn't want to see it fixed, is the way I read it. The current solution 1 is,
essentially, no change from what is experienced now. Windows are not -that- far
apart.
---[Kio on 9/16 @ 21:07 writes]:
But we have. Paladins don't NEED Inquisition to strip parry, because they can
just as easily prone on the inquisition with beast spit mantakaya, or prone
immediately afterward with tendons or knockdowns. Paladins who choose Sacraments
are a defensive POWERHOUSE. Between all the skills they get, AND CAN USE (as
many of the Ritual Knights get a spec that is for the most part useless), they
-do not need this buff to their offense-. If you want Sacraments' offensive
abilities to be buffed, nerf its defensive abilities. You can't be an unkillable
monster while also being a slaughterhouse. That said, I agree with the
realization that this does nothing to properly balance Inquisition in a group
setting. The EXACT SAME PERSON should be responsible for casting all three of
Heretic, Infidel, and Inquisition. It is far, far too powerful if any others can
help, as the assistance of others completely negates its -only- balancing
factors: the wait window, and more importantly, the power cost.
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