148130-forcing-f2p-players-to-spend-20

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Warhound was basically the only server playable at launch (aside from the eventual 2nd PvE server).........I a vast portion of F2P players chose that server to avoid the unrealistic wait times on the PvE servers. Fast forward 2 months and Warhound is essentially devoid of life. I took a break right around Haloween, I left what was a fairly healthy server population, but what I came back to last week was a barren server.
 
This places me in the awkawrd position of re-lvling a new character or finding another game to occupy my time. In my situation I plan on leveling a new character because I want to like this game and see it succeed. That being said, the 5 friends whom I brought with me will not be returning primarily because they do not want to re-lvl and do not want to spend $20. I'm not saying a free transfer would have mattered for all of them, but for at least 2 it would have. I can only imagine how many other people have similar thoughts...........
 
Why do you allow a server which is incredibly damaging to new players to exist. Just merge the damn server and get rid of the "illusion of choice" you are presenting to new players.	
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			Well, I'd much rather want to see a free one way transfer to the less populated server instead of just making it free both ways, that'd just kill off the PvP servers. Also you still have the omnibits you can save up.	
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Well, I'd much rather want to see a free one way transfer to the less populated server instead of just making it free both ways, that'd just kill off the PvP servers. Also you still have the omnibits you can save up.
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It's pretty tough to kill something that is already dead. I'd be surprised if Warhound boasted an active population higher than 1k.........7pm on a Sunday and there's less than 20 people in Illium. The only experience Warhound is providing to new players is a negative one, it may even be preventing old F2P players from returning. So why is something that is not only adding nothing to the game, but potentially damaging it at the same time allowed to exist?
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Warhound exists because many players see the open-world PvP as worthwhile to keep around even if they are one of the few that enjoy that aspect of play.
I'm curious why rolling on Entity-2 wasn't an option?  I take it you and your friends rejoined the F2P rush during the first ~2 weeks or so before the extra servers opened up?
 
They really did take too long to open up servers, I agree on that aspect.  By the time they did, the rush was already starting to die down and WildStar already got a repuation for shoddy networking service and 'bad' servers.  Once that reputation is obtained, it is quite difficult to shake off.
 
Now that the population has stabilized, the question remains whether they will attempt a Steam (re)launch and whether they'll do better this time.
My odds are on 'nope'.  I believe that NcSoft seems to have far more control than they care to admit and may not want this non-Korean MMO to thrive.
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Merging warhound and entity should probably happen.  The issue becomes that of what to do with world pvp, which a lot of people feel strongly about.
 
My own thoughts are that there should be a bonus implemented if you are flagged for pvp (like 5% more exp, etc, similar to authenticating).
 
Second, there should be some rewards that only drop for at-level world pvp.  Suggestions include costumers, housing decor, mounts, and more.  Give some incentive to actually fight people that have a chance.  Nothing to drop for ganking lowbies.
 
Just my thoughts on how to deal with things.	
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Merging warhound and entity should probably happen.  The issue becomes that of what to do with world pvp, which a lot of people feel strongly about.
 
My own thoughts are that there should be a bonus implemented if you are flagged for pvp (like 5% more exp, etc, similar to authenticating).
 
Second, there should be some rewards that only drop for at-level world pvp.  Suggestions include costumers, housing decor, mounts, and more.  Give some incentive to actually fight people that have a chance.  Nothing to drop for ganking lowbies.
 
Just my thoughts on how to deal with things.
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Merging warhound and entity should probably happen.  The issue becomes that of what to do with world pvp, which a lot of people feel strongly about.
 
My own thoughts are that there should be a bonus implemented if you are flagged for pvp (like 5% more exp, etc, similar to authenticating).
 
Second, there should be some rewards that only drop for at-level world pvp.  Suggestions include costumers, housing decor, mounts, and more.  Give some incentive to actually fight people that have a chance.  Nothing to drop for ganking lowbies.
 
Just my thoughts on how to deal with things.
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Your account was created on October 2nd. The second batch of Servers went live on October 2nd.
 
 
 
Why was Warhound 1 your only viable option?
			
				
	Edited December 14, 2015 by Equa1ity	
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Your account was created on October 2nd. The second batch of Servers went live on October 2nd.
 
 
 
Why was Warhound 1 your only viable option?
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I started the day F2P went live (if constantly dcing and such can be called starting), so I'm not sure what you are looking at.....................Entity had nearly an 8 hour wait time when I logged in. It took them a VERY long time to create seperate servers, so much so to the point that they were only lighty used.
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I'm looking at your account information.
 
ws123 by Equality6, on Flickr
 
I've played on Entity since F2P launch and never waited  over 40 minutes let alone 8 hours.
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Well considering I was playing for the vast majority of the day (or as least trying) on my birthday which was the 30th, so I'm not sure what to tell you. Also, you were a subscriber at that point in time which allowed you to jump in front of the line. I don't have to argue over wait time since if you even glanced at the forums or reddit you would recall most people waiting HOURS. My point still stands, Warhound is a trap for those interested in PvP.............it offers little in the way of open world pvp because there is nobody to fight.
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No, I stopped playing several months before F2P launch. I haven't Subscribed since returning. My Cosmic Rewards were high enough to unlock all the perks I wanted going in. They were based upon how much $ players spent prior to the F2P launch. Queue priority wasn't one of them.
 
I understand not wanting to play on a low population server. I don't believe flaming Carbine in this thread is the right way to go about getting any sympathy though. "Wildstar has failed MISERABLY twice now, despite the well advertised and hyped F2P launch."
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			A chunk of the playerbase that has always been kind of fickle and anemic in this game, proves to be fickle and anemic again.  Sorry, but color me unsurprised. This is not an indictment of the game as a whole.Carbine's PvP implementation wasn't perfect and had some flaws, but is overall solid. Players weren't in the mood to be patient, so they bailed on their servers or bailed on the game. Before F2P started there was a lot of people swearing up and down that this time it would be different, and they'd commit to revitalizing the PvP community, and be prepared to tough it out. Less than 3 months later, most of them are gone again and have left a lot of complaining in their wake. Carbine hasn't been perfect when it comes to PvP, but the near instant backlash and departures has been unwarranted, since games hardly ever change as quickly as they seemed to expect.- Carbine already screwed up with 1 way free transfers once. They won't do it again.- Carbine won't give up on the PvP servers so quickly again after a relaunch and make transfers free. An account service like that is a big cash cow for a F2P game, and giving up on it weeks after they reactivated it as a paid service is essentially a white flag.- I get that some people are allergic to leveling an alt again, but damn if the $ is that important to you, spend the 1-5 days it would take and level the alt on a PvE server.	
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			A lot of the veteran players from before free to play also are personally responsible for killing the pvp servers and driving away a lot of the new people. Despite my pleading to them and urging them to change since we weren't playing with the same regulars we were used to, they continued to run full premades and totally shit on the new kids since day 1. They farmed graveyards, they stacked healers and just exploited the pvp imbalance. They even admitted to me that they knew they were scumbagging but tried to blame carbine somehow. The people who in general were so fond of the pvp servers just didn't see how their behavior and actions reflected the incoming batch of newbies. Rather than try to foster growth and longevity they just got their jollies shitting on them. Pvp is a complete joke currently and the matchmaking is only partially to blame. At a certain point you have to take responsibility for your actions. Take a step back, look at what you've done, and reflect.	
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In a game with only two servers having a fee, even for a free to play game, is just inappropriate.
 
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Well, I'd much rather want to see a free one way transfer to the less populated server instead of just making it free both ways, that'd just kill off the PvP servers. Also you still have the omnibits you can save up.
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With omnibits you can transfer for free.
Also, one should not ask how to get to a pve server for free but rather how to make people come to pvp server.
I think free transfer to pvp server, paid transfer to pve server. 	
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PVP servers are a sad, pale, useless thing in this game and should honestly not even exist.
 
WildStar has no real support for Open World PVP and what? Two whole PVP-oriented quests through the entire world?
 
It should have been obvious from the demographic shift after the first launch that the PVP servers where going to do the exact same thing with the F2P transition.
 
They have been a liability from the very first days of this game and continue to be a liability today - and for the remaining life of the entire game.
 
Well, at least until someone in authority snaps to what's happening and just rolls the remaining PVP population into the larger, functional, populated PVE servers.	
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I started the day F2P went live (if constantly dcing and such can be called starting), so I'm not sure what you are looking at.....................Entity had nearly an 8 hour wait time when I logged in. It took them a VERY long time to create seperate servers, so much so to the point that they were only lighty used.
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PVP servers are a sad, pale, useless thing in this game and should honestly not even exist.
 
WildStar has no real support for Open World PVP and what? Two whole PVP-oriented quests through the entire world?
 
It should have been obvious from the demographic shift after the first launch that the PVP servers where going to do the exact same thing with the F2P transition.
 
They have been a liability from the very first days of this game and continue to be a liability today - and for the remaining life of the entire game.
 
Well, at least until someone in authority snaps to what's happening and just rolls the remaining PVP population into the larger, functional, populated PVE servers.
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I mean, in all honesty, this is annoying.  I'm not sure what the solution is.
 
PvP servers died for a large number of reasons.
 
I remember the F2P launch - we didn't raid for a week (half our team couldn't log in).  But hey mate, stay patient and it will come.
 
As for omnibits, i think it's what?  3 weeks of omnibits?  Also, did you know you can queue for dungeons from warhound?  I've met several people from other servers in dungeons.	
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Let this sink in for people:
 
The pvp servers were packed to capacity at f2p launch (and p2p launch) meaning population on the pvp servers would not be a problem.
There were several bugs, gamebreaking for pvp'ers at least that were IGNORED for 2 months+
Many people tried to be patient but a lot quit.
 
This is NOT the pvp server at fault. This is carbine for not caring enough about a massive group of their playerbase and shafting them. Let me repeat, the pvp servers were PACKED just like entity and jabbit are at the moment.
PvP is easy to please, make it balanced, make the scoreboard work, give them costumes and shinies to work towards and some cool new bgs/arena once in a while... done, people will play the gamemode for months at a time.
 
Look at me, I moved all my characters back to Lumi thinking the influx of f2p'ers would make it better, I was really positive at f2p launch... Now I'm looking at either £100 of tfers or weeks upon weeks to get all of my characters elsewhere (I wont, but this is just an example). 
 
Thanks carbine. Next time let me get my lipstick on before you *cupcake* me.	
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Syl, amigo ... the PVP servers were also packed at Original Launch.
 
I mean, I understand your frustration and need to point fingers at Crabine and yeah, there is a ton of merit to that.
 
My point wasn't that all-PVP servers in every game are a bad idea. I *love* PVP servers and were it not for *every single person I game with* flat-out refusing to roll on a PVPer server, that's where I would have gone and likely stayed. As it is, 100% of my real world friends won't touch a PVP server with a 10' Free Transfer.
 
What I was getting at is, as you pointed out, Crabine is unable to make (or keep) PVP in a refined enough state to entice PVP-Only players to stick around for more than a few weeks at a time. Add to that the near-complete lack of actual Open World PVP goals and you've got a recipe for "packed servers at launch" followed by tumbleweeds two months later. It's happened twice now and, if we're being honest with ourselves, was *always* going to happen again.
 
In short, the small demographic of "No PVP Server Means I Won't Play At All" likely pales in comparison to the "Wow, this server is dead, so therefore the game is dead, so therefore I won't waste my time even looking at it" crowd. Or the "I was here at launch and there were people everywhere, now it's a ghost town, GG CRABINE Y U SO BAD MAEK FREEBOT PAY $20 WAAAAAAAAH!" crowd ...
 
Just shut the stupid PVP servers down, roll the population into a healthy whole, and let the PVPers flag up or just do instanced combat.	
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Yup, roll us into the pve servers. I don't care I just would like carbine to do SOMETHING yknow?
 
Not just brush it off with "we have numbers", they have numbers sure... but you have people leaving the game from first glance of a dead server.	
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Yup, roll us into the pve servers. I don't care I just would like carbine to do SOMETHING yknow?
 
Not just brush it off with "we have numbers", they have numbers sure... but you have people leaving the game from first glance of a dead server.
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This places me in the awkawrd position of re-lvling a new character or finding another game to occupy my time. In my situation I plan on leveling a new character because I want to like this game and see it succeed. That being said, the 5 friends whom I brought with me will not be returning primarily because they do not want to re-lvl and do not want to spend $20. I'm not saying a free transfer would have mattered for all of them, but for at least 2 it would have. I can only imagine how many other people have similar thoughts........... 
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Note that the leveling speed has increased by leaps and bounds. Unless you have some raid gear, or other irreplaceable cosmetic items, switching isn't as onerous as you might think. People now "ding" 50 in less than a day.
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Note that the leveling speed has increased by leaps and bounds. Unless you have some raid gear, or other irreplaceable cosmetic items, switching isn't as onerous as you might think. People now "ding" 50 in less than a day.
 
I wasn't aware of it (because I had no need to check), but if you can pay for a transfer with omnibits, that's pure awesomeness by Carbine.
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Um.
 
XP Pots are sort of like ... free? I mean, you CAN buy them, but you get some in your Freebie Backpack and one every few days via Daily Log-Ins. Plus you can buy them for Renown.
 
Not trying to make light of your efforts, but you don't have to spend a single penny to crank up a big, fat XP bonus.
			
				
	Edited December 14, 2015 by Tex Arcana	
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Even being a sub, I didn't play seriously for the first week of relaunch because of the issues.  I can understand being frustrated and impatient to get into the game, but other than time what were you wasting if you had waited for the server/game to stabilize?
 
How is it solely caused by Carbine?  Within a couple of days of F2P launch(which you said you couldn't play the first day because of being unable to get on Entity-1) they implemented sister servers to try and alleviate the problems.  Why didn't you re-roll on Entity-2 as soon as it was available?	
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Why didn't you re-roll on Entity-2 as soon as it was available?
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Even being a sub, I didn't play seriously for the first week of relaunch because of the issues.  I can understand being frustrated and impatient to get into the game, but other than time what were you wasting if you had waited for the server/game to stabilize?
 
How is it solely caused by Carbine?  Within a couple of days of F2P launch(which you said you couldn't play the first day because of being unable to get on Entity-1) they implemented sister servers to try and alleviate the problems.  Why didn't you re-roll on Entity-2 as soon as it was available?
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			Maybe encourage the new players that show up?  Maybe if it keeps getting new players, it won't be "dead" anymore?	
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Factionalizing an already factionalized (and struggling) game into PvE/PvP servers is a recipe for disaster imo. This is the core of the issue to me, in that there's just not enough population to keep what is effectively 4 factions rolling. At the very least the AH/CX should be cross-server just like PvP/PvE queues, to somewhat unify the community and allow those on the low-pop servers to participate in the same game as those on the high pop servers.
 
AH prices on WH are ridiculous, if you can even find the items you need, sales are not consistent, CREDD bounces between 25-40p when anyone is even selling. These inter-faction factionalized PvP/PvE servers are effectively creating 2 different game experiences, and are a block to progression, enjoyment, and desire to play. Hearing prices on Entity just increases already present frustration from lack of PvP content and dwindling queues. Pair that with severely decreasing population on WH, and it's looking kinda bleak to me.
 
I agree with Tex, merge that ish and let us flag for PvP on unified servers.
 
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I'm looking at your account information...
 
 
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Maybe encourage the new players that show up? 
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Yeah, encourage them to stop RIGHT THERE and re-roll on a PVE server!
 
 :lol: :lol:
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 :P  Silly Tex :P
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			True, W* and SWTOR both kinda failed in OPvP fun and incentives.  I didn't play on a PvP server in WoW, so not sure what that was like.  Warhammer Online, I don't remember if they had separate servers, but man did I love their OPvP and RvR lakes :D	
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I don't usually touch PvP servers (because I still go back to DAoC to scratch that itch) so I'm just on the outside looking in but to me it seems like part of the problem is the same story as with every PvE centric game that tacks on PvP servers as an afterthought: There's no real incentive to do spontaneous open world PvP and all other forms of PvP are offered on the PvE servers too.
If you like to primarily play BGs, the PvE servers have you covered.
Arena? Also on PvE servers.
Scheduled OPvP events? You could have those on PvE realms, in theory, just advertise them on both sides get people into a zone at a set time and get them to flag.
Spontaneous OPvP? It could happen if enough people interested in it play with their flags on.
Ganking lowbies or people who just don't want to PvP? That's the one thing that's not going to happen.
 
So with the way WS has no open world PvP objectives at all that leaves the main benefit of PvP servers to be an easy way for PvP players to find likeminded people to play with.
Now if population is at a point as bad as some people make it sound it may really be time to move all players to the PvE realms and have the PvP players concentrate on building a PvP interested community there, just like roleplayers had to build their's. It may be easier than trying to keep a dying server going and the only people I see losing out are gankers.
And then of course there's the bad press following server shutdowns but I see no way to avoid that.
 
So, yeah, that does make it a design fault and the only ones I see fixing it are the community. As is so often the case, sadly.
 
Again, that's just my point of view as someone not invested in PvP in WS. Those of you who are still fighting to save PvP servers may be able to point out the flaws in my reasoning.	
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The only flaw I can see, is a lot of people prefer to be on a pvp server, and that carbine touted the game as the most "epic experience in pvp ever" and then didn't follow up on it, the game was NEVER meant to be pve centric to begin with, it just became pve centric once they killed the pvp community :P.
 
Other than that you're pretty much on point. 	
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The PVP servers started emptying out way before the mega-merge happened. That was the result of the SABOTAGE that Drop Two did to PVP (still, Number One on the All Time Ironic Prophecies of MMO History) exacerbated by the usual post-Launch population drop every new game experiences.
 
The PVE players were quick to consolidate, but the PVP people just seemed to up and leave, en masse, over the period of about six weeks.
 
Once the dust of the mega-merge settled, the PVP Server never, ever recovered. it just didn't and everyone knows it. Now, WildStar PVP Servers are just jinxed. They are a self-fulfilling loop of "people leave, server looks empty, so more people leave, so the server looks emptier."
 
That is when Carbine should have just pulled the plug. F2P was their one chance to get rid of the dead weight and not lose face doing it. Now, it's too late. They will either leave the PVP server up, to serve as a trap for unsuspecting newbies to fall into - or they pull the plug and deal with this massively negative PR blowback that would result. Once again, a missed chance to do the right thing by the game's future.
			
				
	Edited December 14, 2015 by Tex Arcana	
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			Yep I agree tex, honestly as a pvp'er I'd be happy if they just merged the server now. Even if they plugged it as "supermegaserver technology" and let us vote on a new name per NA/EU, because Jabbit is a crappy name. That's one of the main reason I don't want to be there (How lame is that)	
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A lot of the veteran players from before free to play also are personally responsible for killing the pvp servers and driving away a lot of the new people. Despite my pleading to them and urging them to change since we weren't playing with the same regulars we were used to, they continued to run full premades and totally shit on the new kids since day 1. They farmed graveyards, they stacked healers and just exploited the pvp imbalance. They even admitted to me that they knew they were scumbagging but tried to blame carbine somehow. The people who in general were so fond of the pvp servers just didn't see how their behavior and actions reflected the incoming batch of newbies. Rather than try to foster growth and longevity they just got their jollies shitting on them. Pvp is a complete joke currently and the matchmaking is only partially to blame. At a certain point you have to take responsibility for your actions. Take a step back, look at what you've done, and reflect.
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Yep I agree tex, honestly as a pvp'er I'd be happy if they just merged the server now. Even if they plugged it as "supermegaserver technology" and let us vote on a new name per NA/EU, because Jabbit is a crappy name. That's one of the main reason I don't want to be there (How lame is that)
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I know a lot of pve'ers who were running premades and being scumbags... As a pvp'er who set up a circle just for the newbies who joined together to face the premades, I'd say don't put all the blame on the pvp'ers, a lot of pve folk made the bgs just as unbearable as the pvp'ers.
 
The experienced pvp folk knew already what premades would do, and specifically most of them helped the new f2p pvp'ers out. Just go and look at some of the threads created near f2p launch with lists of circles, guilds, looking for people to play with. 
 
The change they're making to premades now, came too late.	
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I know a lot of pve'ers who were running premades and being scumbags... As a pvp'er who set up a circle just for the newbies who joined together to face the premades, I'd say don't put all the blame on the pvp'ers, a lot of pve folk made the bgs just as unbearable as the pvp'ers.
 
The experienced pvp folk knew already what premades would do, and specifically most of them helped the new f2p pvp'ers out. Just go and look at some of the threads created near f2p launch with lists of circles, guilds, looking for people to play with. 
 
The change they're making to premades now, came too late.
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			I don't think "forcing" or "F2P" mean what you think they mean, OP. 	
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They're making teams who queue premade wait longer in a queue than solo-queue people. Solo-q will get priority over premade :)
 
EDIT: Just to clarify, It's upcoming change, not in game now. But planned.
			
				
	Edited December 14, 2015 by Sylqt	
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I don't think "forcing" or "F2P" mean what you think they mean, OP. 
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They mean exactly what I meant, thanks for contributing though.
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No one is forcing you to spend anything, and you can play the game for free. If you agree, then your thread title is disingenuous clickbait. 
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Forcing? Perhaps not directly......but they are providing no option other than to re-level, which in my book (and probably many others) is little different. The alternative is to what? Stay on a server with an population that I'd bet doesn't even break 1k.......no thanks. 
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I know a lot of pve'ers who were running premades and being scumbags... As a pvp'er who set up a circle just for the newbies who joined together to face the premades, I'd say don't put all the blame on the pvp'ers, a lot of pve folk made the bgs just as unbearable as the pvp'ers.
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I don't think you should equate instanced PVP like BGs with PVP servers. Instanced PVP is cross server and has nothing to do with PVP servers. I agree that premades played a part i killing BGs. 
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What did they do in drop 2 that killed PVP? (wasn't around then)
 
Like people have mentioned, merge all the servers and let yourself be flagged as open world pvp or not, on a 24 hour cooldown. People who flag themselves get a 5-10% bonus to stuffs to encourage it.
 
My only concern is world bosses, what the hell would happen on a PVP server with those, would be a massive clustertuck wouldn't it?	
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My only concern is world bosses, what the hell would happen on a PVP server with those, would be a massive clustertuck wouldn't it?
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I wouldn't go as far to say NCsoft doesnt WANT this game to succeed............just that how many chances can you give a game? Typically games don't need more than 1 or 2 chances to take off if they are good. Wildstar has failed MISERABLY twice now, despite the well advertised and hyped F2P launch.
 
Knowing those facts, you would think Carbine would want to do as much damage control as possible. Alienating new players who "chose wrong" at server select is a pretty stupid thing to let happen, even moreso to act like it isn't happening.
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Let's get one thing straight.  Nothing you've stated is a fact.  You believe in your opinion that WildStar has failed miserably twice now.  That depends on how someone defines failure and whether the F2P relaunch is considered a 'failure' as well.
I would disagree strongly that the F2P relaunch was a failure.  I'd just say that it accomplished what it set out to do (get more people into the game and paying money) but doesn't deliver enough of an incentive to maintain a Signature subscription with the paltry 'bonuses' that such a monthly subscription provides.  Better off to spend $15/month in NCoin.
 
 
I've just highlighted the issue with why people won't bother with World PvP even if you try to force it onto them or incentivize it.  The risk of being one-shot by a random max-level trolling for lulz is not worth the time wasted for that 5% or whatever bonus.  A world PvP person will see more people around but almost none of them will bother being flagged because of this.
If you want to incentivize real PvP among the same levels, then that's the way to go.  Don't even LET lower-levels get targeted by someone of higher level.  Let people only be able to attack someone of the opposing faction that is equal to or below their level.
Ok so what about twinks?  That'll be an issue.  The answer is that it'll only be an issue for those who still flag themselves with the 'equal or higher level' PvP rule in place.
 
The emperor (PvP players) has no clothes and fails to realize just how silly they look in asking questions of everyone else who is staring at them and wondering what a fool they look like.  The emperor looks like a fool because they are oblivious to reality.  The reality of the current PvP situation is that it isn't fun for most players.  It isn't fun for a variety of reasons and one of those is that being ganked by a 50 repeatedly while leveling is not fun.  It doesn't matter how fun you try to make it.
 
Aion Online learned this the hard way; they completely crashed and burned to a crisp in their initial subscription-only North American and Europe launches when they forced everyone to 'world PvP or gtfo'.  And people did GTFO straight back to whatever MMO didn't do so.  The market spoke and it spoke loudly with their wallets leaving and with most of them never returning.
 
 
Let's be real here: Twitch should not be considered a barometer of any game's success.  It should be subscriber/active daily players that count for that metric.
WildStar Twitch may have less streamers because those who would be interested are playing the game rather than watching it on Twitch?
Some MMOs have few streamers but tons of players.  Aion & TERA being two of the biggest examples.
 
Carbine would be remiss if they didn't do a bit on their part to hand out some goodies/NCoin/OmniBits to members of the community that produce exceptional/useful addons and fansites.
But Carbine may not even have enough people able to keep track of everything to do any of that.  It is difficult to say what the situation is exactly without being inside Carbine itself.
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Aion and Tera both hover around 1k viewers everyday, not a huge number by any stretch, but certainly respectable for older niche MMO's. Wildstar on the other hand is lucky to break 50 on a good day. Also, saying that people would rather be playing than watching streaming is tough to legitimize because A.)......people aren't playing and B.) most MMO's worth playing are streamed.........and therefore have at least a light following. There's a correlation there, whether you choose to accept that fact or not.
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Aion Online learned this the hard way; they completely crashed and burned to a crisp in their initial subscription-only North American and Europe launches when they forced everyone to 'world PvP or gtfo'.  And people did GTFO straight back to whatever MMO didn't do so.  The market spoke and it spoke loudly with their wallets leaving and with most of them never returning.
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Flaming? I think there is a bit of difference between pointing out the obvious and talking about it vs flaming. After 2 well advertised and highly hyped launches, the end result is >20 people streaming and wathcing WS on Twitch................I'd be interested in how you'd like to argue that they did fail "MISERABLY".
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forum account creation date has nothing to do with game account creation date...just sayin
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Except that the PVP servers were packed both on p2p launch and f2p, so your argument on "noone enjoys pvp servers" is horribly inaccurate.
 
They do, just carbine completely screwed up every facet of their pvp content.	
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Except that the PVP servers were packed both on p2p launch and f2p, so your argument on "noone enjoys pvp servers" is horribly inaccurate.
 
They do, just carbine completely screwed up every facet of their pvp content.
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 If you think it failed miserable because the open world PvP servers are dead I would say your delusional for thinking they would be otherwise. Open world PvP just isn't fun. Only a handful of players think it is. Many games have tried it and failed. 
 
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it's kind of the same as saying that no-one sees it as fun. 
On the initial launch, Hazzak got so packed that they had to launch extra servers, on the relaunch Luminai had queues. It isn't following the same pattern as many MMOs before it, it's following the same pattern as it did when it was sub. First Luminai, then Warhound, third one to die out is always Jabbit and Entity is the last one to follow. 
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  If you think it failed miserable because the open world PvP servers are dead I would say your delusional for thinking they would be otherwise. 
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Aion and Tera both hover around 1k viewers everyday, not a huge number by any stretch, but certainly respectable for older niche MMO's. Wildstar on the other hand is lucky to break 50 on a good day. Also, saying that people would rather be playing than watching streaming is tough to legitimize because A.)......people aren't playing and B.) most MMO's worth playing are streamed.........and therefore have at least a light following. There's a correlation there, whether you choose to accept that fact or not.
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I'd love to see some screenshots of this.  Aion has...what...MAYBE possibly a handful of streamers at any one time and even then almost all of them are exclusively PvP-focused with the lone 'new person derp' female streamer trying to Twitch-blurb for cheap subs and views.  Happens with every game, really.
 
Aion Online PvP is now 100% worthless due to extensive hacking (in both factions) via AS and without any action against them by NcSoft (despite hundreds of reports against those players) and even with evidence from the hacker themselves WHILE THEY STREAM nothing is done for months.  So either viewers don't know, don't care, or only tune in for the streamer entertainment themselves (rather than the game they play), I don't know exactly which reason it even has so many supposed viewers (in any region).
 
As for TERA?  Loli jailbait in fetish outfits.  Enough said.  But even that doesn't get as many viewers as they'd like.  Most I ever see is maybe ~20 or 30 viewers across the handful of streamers each weekend.
 
So screenshots would help cause I'm calling BS on both of those (having had my GPU go kaput on me barely a month ago and forced to watch Twitch Streams for several weekends till it was fixed).
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@ 6:00pm EST on Twitch WoW currently has 32k viewers, Elder Scrolls is at 1.5k, GW2 is at 1k, TERA has just under 500, and Aion is dead with less than 100 viewers........and Wildstar has less than 20.
 
@Equl1ity.............You are spouting a lot of opinions like they're facts. An opinion is fine, but please don't discount others and use your generic assumptions as fact. Not everyone hates open-world pvp, in fact when it's done properly is an incredible draw to player. If that wasn't the case there wouldn't be anyone playing on pvp servers in any MMO. WoW's PvP server for example were at launch and still remain packed, same with TERA.....so making generic sweeping statements like that is ignorant and adds nothing to a discussion.
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Now those numbers I can agree with.  There's one or two really popular TERA streamers playing Elins (because again loli jailbait fetish outfits kawaii desu whatever) and being absolutely boring/useless otherwise.  Aion having less than 100 viewers sounds about right.  At most I noticed a peak of MAYBE 300 when someone was doing a charity event a while ago.
 
The 'about 1k' number was garbage and I'm glad that someone double-checked it for me.  I've been busy with work/stuff or I'd hop on Twitch and check it myself.  Twitch website blocked at work...sad cupcake is sad.  :(
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I don't know what you've checked but WoW always has at least 2k + players watching (maybe you had it filtered to your mother tongue streames), as for now 10.50am (UTC+1) it has 5434 viewers. Most of the views come from pvp streams (3v3). -
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Reading comprehension fail!
 
"I'd like you to find 20 players steaming 'nearly' any MMO, even WoW"
 
His remark was about STREAMERS as was my reply. Streamers are the people playing, viewers are the ones watching the streamers. There was in fact 3 'streamers' on last night when I checked. I said nothing about viewers.
 
Wow, again someone takes what I wrote and tries to spin it into something I didn't say.
 
Can this thread get anymore OFF TOPIC than it already has? You know, the OPs "only option" of Warhound and how Carbine should feel bad for his decision.
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You have seem to have a lot of pent up hostility, so I'd ask that you kindly not derail this thread anymore than you already have. You've not added anything of substance to the discussion besides inciting inflammatory remarks. Thanks.
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