143378-add-a-proper-lfr-and-lfg-tool-page-2

Page 1, Page 2, Page 3
== Content ==
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yeah no. WoW saw it's highest sub numbers during WOTLK. WOTLK struck a near perfect balance between challenging content, and accessibility for more casual players and it was also the expansion that brought about the dreaded LFR.
 
It's losing players now as WoD is growing stale but you can bet that once Legion releases, the numbers will shoot right back up.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yeah no. WoW saw it's highest sub numbers during WOTLK. WOTLK struck a near perfect balance between challenging content, and accessibility for more casual players and it was also the expansion that brought about the dreaded LFR.
----
			
So many people who state info on wow .. but obviously did not play Wow when wrath was king. There was no LFR in WRath. LFR Was in Cataclysm. They only added in WRath. Dungeon finder. WE have a dungeon finder in Wildstar. That's fine. WE don't need LFR. LFR was added at the end of Cataclysm. IT was terrible day 1 and its stayed terrible and has not improved. As far as casual and challenging content in Wrath. They had a perfect balance. 10man content with separate loot. 25man content with separate loot. Both had Heroic versions. For casual players.. 10man was perfect. For more hardcore and social players..they had 25man. When Cata was released they destroyed many guilds and raid teams by making 25man have the same gear as 10man. They did so to also save money. Because this meant the development team did not have to create graphic assets for 2 separate raid tears with individual gear. Wow has never recovered from that mistake. 
 
Wildstar issues that caused the game to have problems with subs were less so about the difficulty but more so about an insane grind of an attunement process also combined with A pvp system that horrible mismanaged. Those 2 major issues have been resolved. Wildtar doesn't need LFR. 
 
Join a guild.. join a circle get of the high horse of a I am too good to need a group to do cool stuff. I should be able to to solo all this easy and the group content should be easy so I can go back to being alone. That style of gameplay leads to boredom and leads to players leaving an mmo in droves. Challenging content is what keeps people playing longer. Because the experience of ovecoming that challenge when it does happen is such a great feeling. Its like sports. When you watch a team face overwhelming odds and then ovecome them. There is no greater joy. Watching a team destroy a weak opponent has no excitement. No one remembers blow outs in the superbowl. They remember the classic nail biters.   LFR can stay with wow.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This is not true.  There was no LFR in Wrath.
 
They did initiate the heroic queue in Wrath however.  I'm not entirely sure when LFR made its first appearance, maybe not until Pandaland?
 
(Otherwise I'm in agreement that LFR is horrible, and not actually raiding, and that Wrath was one of the best, if not THE best expansion WoW has had.)
----
			DUNGEON FINDER IS NOT LFR.   LOOKING FOR RAID IS NOT DUNGEON FINDER.  Sigh. I hate to be forced to use Caps. But the sheer ignorance and trolling showed by you. Goodness.	
----
			
Even if it was release at the end of Wrath ppl WERE NOT using it. Heck, most of pugs couldn't even clear the new 5 men heroic dungeons back then.
Raids started to be pugged (via chat) with TotC and they wanted a certain gear score anyway. 
This was pretty much when I stopped raiding.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
then you have games which failed form day one like wildstar and are now f2p :) the difference is in wow i can least play for a couple month each xpac. here in wildstar after a couple days on lvl 50 i have nothing to do and im bored shitless. im downloading swtor and the ff14 trial in the background.. maybe they have a accesible engame
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
DUNGEON FINDER IS NOT LFR.   LOOKING FOR RAID IS NOT DUNGEON FINDER.  Sigh. I hate to be forced to use Caps. But the sheer ignorance and trolling showed by you. Goodness.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The LFR was introduced in patch 3.3.0.
http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Patch_3.3.0
 
This was the last major patch before Cata was released. Way to do your homework guys.
----
			The raid browser was not LFR as it was at the end of Cata. IF you want a raid browser for Wildstar thats extremely different the the LFR tool currently in wow.  A Raid browser for wildstar THAT would be cool and I would 100% be behind that. Because that would require folks having to actually.. be organized and actually think.	
----
			
Razhork, thanks for that very thoughtful and well-written post. For what it's worth, I agree with much of what you've said.
 
I don't play WoW and never have, but my understanding from having followed these LFR discussions is that at its inception, LFR made easier raids with the exact same rewards. If that is in fact the case, then it's obvious why so many people dislike LFR so reflexively. I would argue against something like that just like everyone else. It's clearly a complete disintegration of risk vs. reward. That is a terrible idea.
 
But as you say, it is obvious how to implement the same basic idea without violating the risk vs. reward paradigm. A puggable version of a raid that is less difficult, provides more ways to recover from mistakes, and is appropriately less rewarding. If the easier instance provides no better rewards than the previous tier of more difficult content and does not unlock the harder version like the previous tier of more difficult content does, then the easier version can be 100% bypassed by players who enjoy challenge, avoiding burnout.
 
The question of how to implement particular mechanics in a way that can be handled by PUGs is an issue that will vary from mechanic to mechanic, but as a general rule of thumb for things like interrupts and telegraphs, the answer is pretty simple. A PUG can still be expected to do things in synchrony and avoid red. They can't be expected to do things in synchrony that is as precise as the synchrony that occurs when everyone's on voicecomms listening to someone they have all agreed beforehand has the right to orchestrate their actions. They can't be expected to avoid red as quickly as people who have remapped their keybindings and optimized their system latency.
 
It doesn't need to be so easy that it can be completed start to finish in an hour, and I honestly wouldn't recommend that. It needs to let individual players progress through puggable content that tracks their progression through the instance as individuals rather than as a single group so that if the PUG doesn't make it all the way through, the players in the PUG are not forced to reform the exact same PUG or start over at the very beginning--unless they choose to do so themselves because they don't want to wait in a queue for players at the point in the raid they're already at.
 
It is not impossible to do this in a way that will allow people who simply do not want to be dedicated hardcore raiders to still make use of content that otherwise they will never see. It will have to be done carefully. But there are two major and very real reasons to do it.
 
First: All the developer time and effort that has gone into Datascape has gone completely unappreciated by the overwhelming majority of the people who play the game and it plays no role whatsoever in their decision to stay with the game or go. The same is true to a lesser extent for GA. Once someone decides that the raids are simply too hardcore for them, that content ceases to be relevant to them. That means that as beautiful as that content may be, as much as it may bring people in the door because it looks so cool, it won't keep them unless they see a realistic hope of actually reaching it at the level of commitment and skill that they bring to the party. If they don't, then it ceases to matter to them. An easier version of the content makes that content relevant even to players who simply will never make it into the more difficult version. It factors into their decision to stay or go in a way that is currently lacking.
 
Second: When only a tiny fraction of the playerbase has completed one tier of content at the only level of difficulty that exists, how can anybody possibly justify making and releasing a higher tier of difficulty? Almost nobody is ready to even enter it. An easier version boosts the fraction of the playerbase that is ready for the next tier of content at their preferred level of difficulty. If you want more pressure on the developers to generate new raid tiers, there's no better way to do that than to have a much larger fraction of the playerbase eager to see versions of it come online. Want to make the casuals cheer on the hardcore and actually pay attention to those progression races? Make it so that the easy version doesn't unlock at all until someone gets a world first all the way through the hard version.
 
Give people who currently are excluded from raiding a reason to care about the raids as anything other than a symbol of the kind of exclusivity that's pushing them out the door.
 
And speaking of pushing people out the door, this is the one part of your thread that I really profoundly disagree with.
{| class="blockquote"
 Is there a need for LFR, or is there a need to push players into raids?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
..
----
			
I don't think a grouping tool a la the original inception of the LFR (post what you are, what you do, how boss your gear is) could add a level of accessibility to raids, but I can certainly see why people would want to avoid things that WoW did as well as why it'd be a slippery slope to the raid finder.
 
The looking for raid tool was simply that, a tool that allowed people to post that they were looking for a raid and those that had or were starting raid groups could pull members from there.  The raid content itself was unchanged at that time.	
----
			
OK, I see this is starting to circle around the whole "puggable raids killed WoW thing" and there's some confusion about when all this happened and what effect it had on WoW. History repeating itself, so here's the actual times and dates and numbers from a thread that came up quite some time ago now. Feel free to make arguments pro or con, but please at least use the actual numbers rather than anecdotal impressions to support your case or revise it as necessary?
 
{| class="blockquote"
You know what WoW didn't have much of back then?
Competition. The MMORPG field is very crowded now. Welcome to 2015.
 
According to gamepedia, WoW introduced the Raid Finder in patch 4.3.0, which went live in November of 2011. According to Statista.com, in Q4 of 2011 WoW had already been on a slow decline from its peak for a year. The change in game population from Q3 2011 to Q1 2012 was pretty much nothing, and the game's population stayed around 10 million until late 2012, about 6 months after the release of MoP. That's when 5.1 came out, and the next quarter the population had dropped by 1.5 million players.
----
			
 
{| class="blockquote"
So.. Yasfan is a solo player wanting an mmo to be solo focused. I get it now. Now its clear why Yasfan is heavily critical of Wildstar. Because its a game that is actually focused on group based end game content. This is why yasfan is always going to be liking any criciticism of wildstar. Like I said before.. There are other games with singe player focused content.  The M in MMO means Multiplayer not Singleplayer.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
As the poster above said, WoW has only declined since the inception of LFR. For a brief 1-3 months after each expac it shines so people can see the new content but after they are done with it it goes right back to being farmville and people quit. LFR and it's ez mode content does not and will not ever be the reason people stick with a game. IMO it more hurts the game than anything. People don't have anything to look forward to anymore. They have nothing to strive for. Without a goal to reach then there is no motivation to play. You can push to get mounts/pets/etc but even those can only last so long.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 Or even more accurately:  If you want to solo, then organized group content isn't for you.  
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Dude. I can't believe I have to spell this out for you like this. But here you go.
 
"Looking For Raid (or the Raid Browser) is a new addition of Patch 3.3.0 and allows players to make Raids. It was replaced by the Raid Finder in Patch 4.3. It could be accessed by typing /lfr. The list can be sorted on character Name, Level, Class, Tank Role, Healer Role, and Damage Role."
 
http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Looking_For_Raid
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This is not true.  There was no LFR in Wrath.
 
They did initiate the heroic queue in Wrath however.  I'm not entirely sure when LFR made its first appearance, maybe not until Pandaland?
 
(Otherwise I'm in agreement that LFR is horrible, and not actually raiding, and that Wrath was one of the best, if not THE best expansion WoW has had.)
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The LFR was introduced in patch 3.3.0.
http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Patch_3.3.0
 
This was the last major patch before Cata was released. Way to do your homework guys.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Dude. I can't believe I have to spell this out for you like this. But here you go.
 
"Looking For Raid (or the Raid Browser) is a new addition of Patch 3.3.0 and allows players to make Raids. It was replaced by the Raid Finder in Patch 4.3. It could be accessed by typing /lfr. The list can be sorted on character Name, Level, Class, Tank Role, Healer Role, and Damage Role."
 
http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Looking_For_Raid
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Nope that says cross realm DUNGEON FINDER which is not the same thing as LFR.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The LFR was introduced in patch 3.3.0.
http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Patch_3.3.0
 
This was the last major patch before Cata was released. Way to do your homework guys.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This is not true.  There was no LFR in Wrath.
 
They did initiate the heroic queue in Wrath however.  I'm not entirely sure when LFR made its first appearance, maybe not until Pandaland?
 
(Otherwise I'm in agreement that LFR is horrible, and not actually raiding, and that Wrath was one of the best, if not THE best expansion WoW has had.)
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
LFR came in end of Cata but hit its stride in MoP.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You have to scroll down the page quite a bit for it to talk about the looking for raid tool.  It's completely different from what people associate with LFR, though.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
So for those of us who aren't WoW players, what changed about how the raid finder was being implemented in MoP? Because if the problem with the raid finder wasn't there when it was rolled out but became a problem with something introduced later, that suggests that the thing introduced later is something we ought to be thinking about very carefully in this discussion.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
So for those of us who aren't WoW players, what changed about how the raid finder was being implemented in MoP? Because if the problem with the raid finder wasn't there when it was rolled out but became a problem with something introduced later, that suggests that the thing introduced later is something we ought to be thinking about very carefully in this discussion.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Agreed I was actually quite vocal on the wow forums when LFD and what we now call LFR were introduced. I didn't think either was a good idea at all because of the inherent nasty behavior both in the end produced. I kinda saw it coming.
 
As for loot in LFR. AFAIK it was always less powerful than what normal/heroic raiding got though I could be wrong on dragonsoul since I was raiding normal/heroic at the time. I didn't start using LFR until MoP when my hands took a  quantum leap into bad pain. The loot from LFR has progressively been nerfed ever since with it being near complete junk in WoD.
 
At the point my hands are now. I would LFR in WoW even if it gave no loot because I do find it fun and I do want to see the content. I just probably would not at that point do it every week.
 
As for the death of guilds etc. Honestly guild perks were a bigger cause of that. It fostered the megaguild where everyone is just a contributor to the GMs wallet and people stay for the perks. I have actually been kicked from dungeons because I did not have the guild perk "Mass Res". When Guilds stopped caring about each other people stopped caring about guilds. The other factor was Bliz not settling on a raid size. Particularly in WoD with the death of the 10 man raid. That did in MANY guilds. Lots of things contributed to the death of guilds it was hardly just LFR.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
I was quite vocal in the opposite camp. I thought it was an excellent tool to allow people to run content when they weren't part of an already established raiding guild.  Even getting dungeon runs in TBC was a nightmare if you weren't part of an elite clique, or even if you didn't play during primetime for north america.    
 
LFD solved a lot of problems with finding groups.   Instead of spending hours sitting in a city spamming trade chat,  you could actually just queue up and go about actually playing the game while you waited for a group to form.  It wasn't perfect, by any means, however.  Long queues due to a lack of healers or tanks.  Rampant elitism and vote-kicking of people who didn't meet a group's ridiculous gearscore requirements, or whenever a person didn't play flawlessly. But overall LFD was an amazing step forward. 
 
LFR....in a lot of ways did the same thing, only for raids.  A LOT of people who would have otherwise NEVER seen the inside of a raid now had a chance to run them.  Where Blizzard screwed up was by making it a required part of the gear progression.  Not sure how many of you remember that phase of the game, but it was a huge problem.  Full-time elite raiders were dumped into the same pool as complete and utter noobs. The clash between people who had never raided before or were just learning, and the top 5% of hardcore career raiders was a trainwreck.   Every possible problem you can think of happened:  Arguments over loot.  Arguments in chat about gear, spec, number of tanks, number of healers, positioning, etc.  Some people were on voice chat, some weren't.       
 
But overall I think it was a net positive.  Like I said, people who would have otherwise NEVER raided got a chance to get their feet wet.  I don't doubt for a moment that a LOT of new full-time raiders were created out of LFR because htey finally had a chance to learn without being thrust into the deep end and drowned.    WIldstar is suffering a version of that same kind of pain right now.  There is no compromise between beginner raiding and 'hardcore', even with the current raids being toned down somewhat.   
 
I'm not certain that Wildstar needs an LFR. But it seems pretty clear that it needs something to help people transition into raiding.  
 
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
So for those of us who aren't WoW players, what changed about how the raid finder was being implemented in MoP? Because if the problem with the raid finder wasn't there when it was rolled out but became a problem with something introduced later, that suggests that the thing introduced later is something we ought to be thinking about very carefully in this discussion.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
So for those of us who aren't WoW players, what changed about how the raid finder was being implemented in MoP? Because if the problem with the raid finder wasn't there when it was rolled out but became a problem with something introduced later, that suggests that the thing introduced later is something we ought to be thinking about very carefully in this discussion.
----
			
Right, I'ma brainstorm while I'm watching the livestream.
 
Content for players who aren't interested in organized group stuff (vet dungeons/raids):
 
- either solo or small group content that's easy enough that pugs won't wipe and get mad at each other.
- able to be completed in a relatively short space of time (say half an hour?)
- allows players to progress their character (gear power/appearance)
- repeatable
- fun! (duh)
 
LFR fails for me on 2 and 5.  2 because, especially if you're dps, queues can be long (30 minutes plus) and then 45 maybe for the raid itself.  If you don't wipe.  5 because the content has to be very easy or the group wipes, everyone yells at each other and the experience is awful.  The result is that you can just ignore mechanics, and it becomes just a case of whacking boss-shaped target dummies until they fall over.  Not fun.
 
Solo or small group story instances, adventures and dungeons that don't require tanks/healers (so low/no queues) would be a better starting point for designing more casual endgame content than raids.  Put decent (randomized?) loot in there, some nice cosmetic rewards, boom, done.
 
Re: LFR being an 'intro to raiding', well, it teaches some mechanics, but most you can ignore, it doesn't teach you to coordinate and work with other players, so it's a pretty poor teaching tool overall.  If you want to do organized raiding, the first thing you should do is join a guild.  At which point doing vet dungeons with your guildies is a much better 'intro to raiding'.  If you're not interested in organized group content, then it doesn't matter anyway.
 
tl;dr - the concept of a raid isn't compatible with solo/casual/quick play, and trying to adapt is as such is poor design/makes for poor content.
			
				
	Edited October 16, 2015 by Lori	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Right, I'ma brainstorm while I'm watching the livestream.
 
Content for players who aren't interested in organized group stuff (vet dungeons/raids):
 
- either solo or small group content that's easy enough that pugs won't wipe and get mad at each other.
- able to be completed in a relatively short space of time (say half an hour?)
- allows players to progress their character (gear power/appearance)
- repeatable
- fun! (duh)
 
LFR fails for me on 2 and 5.  2 because, especially if you're dps, queues can be long (30 minutes plus) and then 45 maybe for the raid itself.  If you don't wipe.  5 because the content has to be very easy or the group wipes, everyone yells at each other and the experience is awful.  The result is that you can just ignore mechanics, and it becomes just a case of whacking boss-shaped target dummies until they fall over.  Not fun.
 
Solo or small group story instances, adventures and dungeons that don't require tanks/healers (so low/no queues) would be a better starting point for designing more casual endgame content than raids.  Put decent (randomized?) loot in there, some nice cosmetic rewards, boom, done.
 
Re: LFR being an 'intro to raiding', well, it teaches some mechanics, but most you can ignore, it doesn't teach you to coordinate and work with other players, so it's a pretty poor teaching tool overall.  If you want to do organized raiding, the first thing you should do is join a guild.  At which point doing vet dungeons with your guildies is a much better 'intro to raiding'.  If you're not interested in organized group content, then it doesn't matter anyway.
 
tl;dr - the concept of a raid isn't compatible with solo/casual/quick play, and trying to adapt is as such is poor design/makes for poor content.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The thing is we already have the mechanism for that. We have Expeditions,Adventures and normal dungeons. I would agree we need more of those 3 things. Let us use the content finder to queue for them and call it done.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yeah, rewards are key too, I think.  Small chances for nice cosmetic stuff, pets, mounts whatever and maybe a small chance to get a higher ilevel piece of gear, to make them attractive to run regularly.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
LFR had major problems since it's launch to be fair. I witnessed it personally up till this day.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Not the highest iLevel just better than you could normally get. It will still feel like progressing the character even if on a smaller scale. And I totally agree on the pets and mounts. I know many people who have left WoW because pets and mounts no longer drop in LFR and they will not step up to normals.
 
Sorry about the typos guys my hands are crapping out on me.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I have maintained since the beginning that of LFR was put into wow it should share a lockout with all the other difficulty levels.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Mounts never dropped from LFR. 
 
Edit: I mean if you look purely at participation level for LFR, there's only one thing to conclude and that is that LFR is a massive success. A big % of players do it. My only question, albeit be it a non-issue for a lot of players, is; Does the participants of LFR actually enjoy doing it? 
 
You can't really figure it out, which makes it sort of a non-issue I suppose, but that's the gist of games for me. Is it actually fun? I don't personally find joy in doing LFR, but there's just nothing else to do. Blizzard has eliminated most other content to do, so most casuals are literally just left with LFR if they want to progress in any shape or form. 
 
Also there was a statistic from MMO-Champion in regards to participation numbers. I think 50% of players had done Blackhand on LFR, which is a high percentage. But that's basically checking how many players has the Blackhand achievement. It doesn't tell you how often players participate in LFR nor how enjoyable it is for said players. It would be solved with a survey, but nobody would do the survey anyways. 
 
Trust me, it's easy to argue for LFR and against. I'd rather see Carbine's take on LFR. On the other hand, I'd also much rather see a casual raid implemented. It's easy to get lazy with simple difficulty changes. 
 
Man, this topic is so hard to discuss. We'd have to make a feedback thread or something more focused on the topic. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I agree that this seems absolutely essential as a component of keeping people from being incentivized to grind well below what they'd find to be their own preferred mix of challenge and reward.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
LFR fails for me on 2 and 5.  2 because, especially if you're dps, queues can be long (30 minutes plus) and then 45 maybe for the raid itself.  If you don't wipe.  5 because the content has to be very easy or the group wipes, everyone yells at each other and the experience is awful.  The result is that you can just ignore mechanics, and it becomes just a case of whacking boss-shaped target dummies until they fall over.  Not fun.
----
			
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1878979-Preach-on-LFR = A current thread on MMO-Champion discussing a particular video from a semi-famous WoW Youtuber named Preach who speaks his mind about LFR. 
 
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1878408-Could-blizzard-be-gearing-players-up-for-the-removal-of-LFR = A thread discussing the possibility of Blizzard wanting to remove LFR for Legion due to recent nerfs on the Normal difficulty of Hellfire Citadel.
 
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1865821-Ghostcrawler-quot-LFD-with-harder-dungeons-and-NO-LFR-quot?highlight=LFR = Discusses the a statement made by a previous WoW Developer who said his preference was "Harder dungeons with LFD tool and no LFR" basically saying he likes the addition of LFD, but wants the dungeons to be more difficult in WOW and no LFR. Many of the pages also consist of trash talking Ghostcrawler, it's kind of a cess pool thread. 
 
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1876551-Should-LFR-drop-the-same-gear-of-Heroic-Dungeons-Blues?highlight=LFR = Thread discussing whether LFR should drop heroic dungeon loot or better (currently drops better than dungeon loot). Aka wanting to nerf LFR further. 
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8ac2sQHJLI = Semi-famous WoW youtuber stating why he wants LFR to be removed; has a follow up video responding to comments. 
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4VxBJ8Xnsc = Semi-famous WoW youtuber debating LFR from different perspectives. 
 
 
You don't need to check each and every link, but they provide great insight to the WoW community's stance on LFR. It's about the most controversial topic on the WOW forums these days. There are arguments for why it's good and why it's bad. Some pages rack up at 90 + pages. 
This is not to say "dis is why lfr shouldnt be hur", but more so to show you what the consequences of LFR has been on the WoW community. It is kind of Pandora's box, you let the "evil"(not literally in this context) out. This is something you have to be absolutely sure you want to implement, and how you want to implement it. 
 
Make a miss, and you very well can split the community unnecessarily. 
 
Edit: Btw, this is only the tip of the icebergs in terms of threads and videos discussing LFR. Search LFR on MMO-Champion and you get 40 pages worth of threads. 
			
				
	Edited October 16, 2015 by Razhork	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Well that's the funny thing about gear progression and raiders though.  Consider the following scenario:
 
1)  Player levels to max level to experience the end game.
2)  Player diligently improves skills, build, and gear through the smaller group content and wishes to raid for the challenge.
3)  Player through no fault of their own, has NEVER gotten a weapon upgrade.  They've been working on it but just RNGesus hasn't worked out for them.
 
So, what is Player to do?  Player could start raiding, but knowing that he or she is performing not at the level they want to because they're held back by their luck.  
Player could pursue content they find trivial and boring just for another chance at an incremental step up to fill the gap.
 
And once the gap-filler is available, a guild can look at a Player and say "hey have you done everything you can to improve yourself?  we'd like to know that you're committed."  Then it becomes a necessary step to participate in content they do not personally like.
 
I think that is some of the issue.  Like I said, maybe some folk will kill for a good tapioca pudding, however incentivizing people who do not like tapioca pudding to have to eat it just so they can get to the steak just doesn't leave a good taste in the mouth.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I think the LFR tool as was implemented in the WotLK expansion of WoW was a good thing.  A means for players to advertise that they are willing/able to raid even if their circumstances do not permit it (no guild, guild does not raid, lack of friends/associates interested in raiding) without necessitating that they sit inside of a major city and spam chat channels either looking for a pug or a guild run that needs replacements.
 
LFR as it is now known, or the raid finder as it is, took the lack of investment and accountability of the dungeon finder (be a jerk, who cares?  there's tons of people on the internet and it won't matter if a few of them ignore you so you can't group with them again) and expanded it to cover raid content that, while less rewarding, was significantly easier.  Those who were unwilling or unable to raid normally (time constraints, skill/gear levels, etc.) then opted to use the raid finder in order to see raid content they would not otherwise see.  Then it simply became the thing to do as quests that involved raid completion (collect X number of Y item from raid bosses in Z raid) essentially mandated use of the raid finder.  Why spend a few hours a night two nights a week trying to progress on content your guild couldn't get past when you could easily spend half that time and clear all of the content with all of the quest rewards in the raid finder?
 
The looking for raid tool added a greater level of accessibility to raiding, but the addition of the raid finder took the problems inherent to the dungeon finder and only exacerbated them.
 
As an aside: People often cite that dungeon finder mentality falls into "do the content, don't say anything" and while I won't contest that...does anyone consider why?  The dungeon finder, even in Wildstar, pulls people from multiple servers in order to form groups.  In the event you do strike up a conversation and wind up hitting it off with people...you could just wind up being on disparate servers and never be able to converse again.  Simultaneously utilizing text chat to socialize in a dungeon essentially conflicts directly with the action combat feel that Wildstar has.  I've noticed, even back in the heyday of my WoW playing with friends, that unless I'm using voice chat I won't normally type to socialize in dungeons even if I'm among a group full of friends.  This primarily applies to doing things that require focus rather than doubling back to old content for achievements or what-have-you.  I dunno, this is probably a pointless tangent to go off on, it seemed relevant at the time, to me.
 
Edit: Son of a bee sting, Elite Seraph, why you gotta go say essentially the same thing I wanted to say but first and also better?  Maaan...
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yes they did. I have a Black raptor from LFR in MoP to prove it. ToT I think it dropped from. I also have a couple of pets from LFR.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You don't need to check each and every link, but they provide great insight to the WoW community's stance on LFR. It's about the most controversial topic on the WOW forums these days. There are arguments for why it's good and why it's bad. Some pages rack up at 90 + pages. 
This is not to say "dis is why lfr shouldnt be hur", but more so to show you what the consequences of LFR has been on the WoW community. It is kind of Pandora's box, you let the "evil"(not literally in this context) out. This is something you have to be absolutely sure you want to implement, and how you want to implement it. 
 
Make a miss, and you very well can split the community unnecessarily. 
 
Edit: Btw, this is only the tip of the icebergs in terms of threads and videos discussing LFR. Search LFR on MMO-Champion and you get 40 pages worth of threads. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You are presuming that the reward should be a gap filler. I think that would be a mistake for exactly the reason you describe.
 
A solution that avoids your problem is one in which an easier version of content rewards the same as the previous tier of challenging content, but completing the easier version of that content tier does not unlock the more challenging version, while the previous tier of challenging content does.
 
So if what you want is challenge, the most efficient path to the top tier is through the previous tiers of challenging content that provide both the reward and the unlock while the easy version provides only the reward.
 
Does that address your concern?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
In Mop I would agree many made the transition. As it is now in WoD that just is not happening. The difficulty has been nerfed so much in LFR that the jump to FLex or normal is just too big.
 
High end raiders are still a big problem in LFR with the attitude many of them bring with them. At the same time I am not sure the last set of WoD LFR raids would get done without them. It is a catch 22. In LFR now you have 3 groups. High end people who want to putout big numbers and feel good about how much better they are than the others. People like me who at one time were high end raiders and go in prepared, geared as well as we can be and do the mechanics, and people who just jump in and pew pew on the boss regardless of mechanics. THere are of course exceptions but most folks in LFR fall into those 3 categories.
 
The first group has already moved up. The second group might or might not move up but it is a small group. The third group is going to stay right where they are.
 
I have maintained since the beginning that of LFR was put into wow it should share a lockout with all the other difficulty levels. That would take the first group for the most part out of the picture. Force the second group to make a choice. The third group would be unaffected except that the raid would be harder with less of the first and second group in there to carry them. So the third group might actually have to learn to play a bit.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Oh the raptor eggs. They dropped from regular mobs in Isle of Giants which came with the patch. I got the green, black and red within a few days + waiting 3 days for them to hatch. I never really thought of it that way because even world bosses could drop the eggs. 
 
I guess it's still valid, but I've literally heard nobody complain about not getting the eggs again. The raptor model was from 2004 as well, but mount is a mount I guess. And the pets do drop from LFR. 
 
Iskar also drops a pet on LFR. There's simply been no pets from bosses other than Iskar this expansion. It's not like they excluded LFR from the drops. 
----
			
I'm probably going to bail from the discussion for now. It's really something I could discuss for many pages. If the raid and dungeon devs ever decide to implement it, I hope the first thing they do is to get the community involved. Let's keep it level headed. I've had too many heated discussions about it on MMO-Champion. It's a really taxing subject. 
 
{| class="blockquote"
 
The eggs did drop from ToT. As for pets this is the first I have heard of them dropping in LFR this expansion. I have not seen one drop yet. I do know people that were collectors of mounts and pets and left the game because the devs said they were being taken out in WoD (my google foo sucks so I am not even going to try and find the dev post. Have at it if you want though). Those people walked when WoD launched.
 
You gotta understand that for the more casual people mount and pet collecting is a big deal and to have an avenue shut off when it was so unnecessary really ticked folks off.
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
Re: LFR being an 'intro to raiding', well, it teaches some mechanics, but most you can ignore, it doesn't teach you to coordinate and work with other players, so it's a pretty poor teaching tool overall.  If you want to do organized raiding, the first thing you should do is join a guild.  At which point doing vet dungeons with your guildies is a much better 'intro to raiding'.  If you're not interested in organized group content, then it doesn't matter anyway.
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This is why I'm VERY interested to see how GW2's first expansion handles raiding.   
 
----
			Also going to have to break off for a bit, but I'll be back to pick it up again. I just want to say how refreshing the tone and responsiveness of the last few pages have been. I hope it can be sustained. :)	
----
			
WoW I think has backed itself into a corner with LFR. I think if they remove it at this late a date the sub loss would be extreme and they cannot really afford that on top of the sub losses they have suffered in WoD. Even if they leave it in Legion has to knock it out of the  ballpark or we are really seeing the end of WoW.
 
What I do not want to see happen in Wildstar though is a loss of the gains f2p have given it. I greatly fear that putting in a LFR would paint WIldstar into a similar box to the one WoW is currently in. That being once it is in there removing it could cause massive problems.
 
Given that I would really think the Devs have to be extremely careful with this decision. I also do NOT advocate for a LFR in Wildstar as I think it is far to delicate a balancing act. I think we need to see more queuable solo and small group content. Expeditions, adventures, and normal dungeons with veteran dungeons as the first step up for those who become interested in progressing.	
----
			
 
{| class="blockquote"
Indeed.  If their take on dungeons is any marker though, they've got their work cut out for them.  I think the lack of a well defined encounter control role (typically the 'tank'), and the lack of a well defined support role (a dodge is invulnerability and healing is a personal responsibility) is going to make meaningful encounter design a challenge.  Props to Arenanet for trying though.  
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I will not pretend to know whether or not WoW's LFR is just "whacking at boss-shaped target dummies until they fall over", but not even a PUG requires content to be that easy. PvP PUGs don't even need to coordinate for players to figure out that they need to split up to guard secondary control points or that someone had better stay behind to guard the walatiki masks from attempts to steal. 
 
There is a huge range of difficulties between "for the 1%" and "for the absolute least-skilled player in the game" and I would really like to see us step away from a mindset that says "the only levels of difficulty that exist are Faceroll and Avatus".
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Originally it wasn't 'faceroll' easy, and the devs found that when large, random groups of players wiped over and over they expressed their hatred for each other in ways that one might deem unsavory.
 
The group size, is the thing.  Five strangers coordinating to overcome a moderate challenge isn't a crazy notion.  Twenty-five strangers coordinating to overcome a moderate challenge without demeaning each others' mothers, is.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
Sorry, I know I'm behind the quote curve here.  I really should just multi-quote and make a mega-post.  
 
I have to disagree with LFR not being an intro to raiding. You're correct that it doesn't do a very good job of teaching specific mechanics. but what it DOES do is show people what it's like to be in a group that's larger than 3-5 people.  The coordination of 20 people and having more than a single tank and healer is also introduced.  Seeing 20 people moving around the encounter, sometimes splitting into smaller groups to handle tasks is also a thing.   Like I said in a previous post, it lets people get their feet wet without being punishing.    In that regard it's serving a VERY valuable service.   
 
Where things go wrong is when LFR gets used for other purposes, such as gearing up between dungeons and raids.  Or for quest completion which is REALLY meant to be completed in normal difficulty raids where you're facing the intended challenge. I think that's where Blizzard lost their way. They're too stuck on the idea that larger group = more difficulty = better rewards.  And I am fundamentally against that concept.  I firmly believe that small group content(or even solo content!) can be designed to present enough challenge to rival raiding.   Which is to say that rewards should be based on difficulty, not on group size!
 
Too many people only run LFR in wow because it's the path of least resistance for completing their epic quests and gearing up.  It's too much of a shortcut, and completely eliminates any sense of character progression.  
----
			
Hi all,
 
First, just want to get a gentle reminder out there that it's against the WildStar Code of Conduct to discuss moderation. This includes quoting a post that someone else has made in regards to moderation. We recognize that we have many new faces here on the forums so be sure to read through the Code of Conduct so you know the rules before you post.
 
Second, this thread has had a lot of really good discussion points across the board and the topic is obviously something that many of you care about deeply. Please remember however to keep your posts respectful. We do not tolerate bashing or trolling - this should be a safe place to state your opinion and the community should not have to worry about backlash for expressing themselves constructively. We fully expect that not everyone is going to see eye to eye on everything. That's actually perfectly normal. 
 
Thank you for your cooperation,
 
-Team WildStar	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Hi all,
 
First, just want to get a gentle reminder out there that it's against the WildStar Code of Conduct to discuss moderation. This includes quoting a post that someone else has made in regards to moderation. We recognize that we have many new faces here on the forums so be sure to read through the Code of Conduct so you know the rules before you post.
 
Second, this thread has had a lot of really good discussion points across the board and the topic is obviously something that many of you care about deeply. Please remember however to keep your posts respectful. We do not tolerate bashing or trolling - this should be a safe place to state your opinion and the community should not have to worry about backlash for expressing themselves constructively. We fully expect that not everyone is going to see eye to eye on everything. That's actually perfectly normal. 
 
Thank you for your cooperation,
 
-Team WildStar
----
			https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/120857-mock-up-one-thing-that-wildstar-really-need-a-way-to-find-right-other-players-for-different-activities/	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
That code of conduct link just gives me an error that simultaneously says "Sorry, we couldn't find that" but also "You do not have permission to view this forum".
 
Also I don't even understand what the moderation discussion thing is related to, which was why I even wanted to look at the code of conduct.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yeah and we're down 5 mil subs and the game is a shell of what it once was BECAUSE there is no reason to be social at all in the game.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yeah, I mean I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on how much LFR teaches someone.  I've run it as a healer and dps a few times the last 12 months and other than the usual 'not standing in the fire' (which players learn in dungeons anyway) there wasn't much going on mechanically or in terms of coordination.  Certainly nothing that was actually necessary to beat the encounter.  And in the rare events that there are mechanics that need doing properly, groups just wipe over and over until the stacking buff they get for wiping stacks up high enough that they can brute force it.  Which is both a lengthy and frustrating experience.
 
I agree that most players run LFR to complete quests or because it's the easiest way to get gear.  I would posit that very few players run it because it's fun.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Could Wildstar implement an LFR system successfully? I think maybe yes.  But they'd have to stick to a difficulty and not just give rewards for attending.  
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The game lost subs because of an absolute atrocity of an expansion. Period.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
With personal responsibility being integral to defeating most raid bosses, LFR would be a disaster unless a majority of mechanics were rendered moot.
----
			
I am no lfr player but i do believe LFR has the right to exist. There are legit players who can't commit or are unable do normal+ raids and would only be a hindrance to others if they do
Most of the ppl i know just queue and go off  to do real life stuff until the queue bells rings :P
 
That said should lfr be introduced in wildstar, at the moment no because the dungeons act like raid checkers but if the population does pick up in the years to come then yes we should :)	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Well, maybe?  I'm not entirely certain I understand what you're driving at when you say the easier version does not unlock the more challenging version.  Razhork is absolutely right when he says this is an incredibly complicated issue.  It's not only just seeing content, but it's tied into social pressure between players themselves and between players and the developers, it's tied into perception of skill and power (e.g. "gear score").  It's tied intimately into encounter design because gear progression is a gating mechanism to difficult encounters.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I think something more along the lines of a Flex raid, but with less difficulty than the current normal raid, might work.  Or simply a 10-man version.  I don't really know, to be completely honest. The community is so fickle, it's difficult to envision a single thing like raiding or LFR that could really 'save'  Wildstar.   I think Wildstar was flawed from the beginning due to copying too many old fundamentals from older games.   But we'll see.  We'll see. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Originally it wasn't 'faceroll' easy, and the devs found that when large, random groups of players wiped over and over they expressed their hatred for each other in ways that one might deem unsavory.
The group size, is the thing.  Five strangers coordinating to overcome a moderate challenge isn't a crazy notion.  Twenty-five strangers coordinating to overcome a moderate challenge without demeaning each others' mothers, is.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Respectfully, that's an issue of random groups of players being tossed into the same content without respect to player experience or player goals for being in the content. When the advanced players are in the same instance as the novices but trying to accomplish a more advanced set of goals, there is bound to be tons of friction between the two groups because one of them wants it done quick and well, but the other group can't do it quick or well.
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Consider:  Wildstar does not have 100 servers.  Only really 2.  You could not get away with the kind of shenanigans that you could with WoW.  Your actions, both good and bad, would have much more of an impact. If you got a reputation for trolling and wiping LFR runs, pretty soon a LOT of people would have you on ignore and block. This could actually impact you personally, unlike how it would go down in WoW.  Enough reports of disruptive behavior could potentially result in a temp ban or worse.  
 
It think that should not be underestimated. 
 
----
			
 
{| class="blockquote"
LFR wouldn't 'save' WildStar, so to speak; but it (or something similar) is one thing amongst many which will help bring this game up to the modern mmo standards that players have come to expect. The only real problem with Wildstar is that it is missing features and systems present in other mmos, because the developers have not had the time to implement them. Obviously WS couldn't survive as a p2p game while it was half complete but with f2p that is no longer a issue. F2p should provide the game with a consistant source of income and players leaving the team to build all of the missing features into the game.
 
In all fairness, CS don't even need our feedback to make this game big, all they have to do is look at the other mmos and see what it is the players are doing in them, find the trends (things common among all the big mmos) and add them to WS, instead of trying to re-invent the wheel.
----