120370-attuned-and-unattuned-endgame-content-page-2

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I like difficult content. I don't like inconvenient and tedious content that forces everyone who wants into the endgame to either grind forever or join a big guild for a carry.
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I can agree that portions of the attunement process may feel needlessly tedious to some.  While I'm not one of those people I can understand that point of view.
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Are you now asking loaded questions that literally ignore my answers to your previous questions because you didn't really want to get any reasonable answers to the questions you asked? Or is there some other reason that's just not obvious?
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To change the attunement process idd lower the number of requiered world bosses as R12 and malgrave arena (forgot the name, hellrose?) are never being done with the current population.
 
Also, the reputation part should be done if you did ever quests of every zone as you lvled to 50. That's what I did, and if I remember correctly i was at 25000 something. Still had alot of rep farming to do and that shouldn't be the case.
 
Or at least make silver adventures and bronze dungeons retroactive.
 
Or place the reputation part as the last attunement requierement, so you can get your rep as you finish the rest.	
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To change the attunement process idd lower the number of requiered world bosses as R12 and malgrave arena (forgot the name, hellrose?) are never being done with the current population.
 
Also, the reputation part should be done if you did ever quests of every zone as you lvled to 50. That's what I did, and if I remember correctly i was at 25000 something. Still had alot of rep farming to do and that shouldn't be the case.
 
Or at least make silver adventures and bronze dungeons retroactive.
This is already in place, welcome to the Bronze Age.
 
Or place the reputation part as the last attunement requierement, so you can get your rep as you finish the rest.
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If you silver/bronze adventures while still on the rep phase of attunement or even in the full week it should take you to get the EG required for the key, you should be maxed either before you reach the rep stage or by the time you have it, you should be able to breeze through the Adventures and be retroactively rewarded the Dungeons.
 
This is how I recently did it with my Esper, took me just over a weeks time (playing him as my alt) to actually enter GA.
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As more raids are added, people gain knowledge of current raids, and the gear gap between lower content becomes greater current raids will become PuGable.
 
To me it seems people are too impatient. They refuse to join a guild to work towards a common goal either because of lack of skill or personal reasons and that seems to be another variable in the equation. 
 
Currently, most end game guilds out there have 1, maybe 2, raid groups. 9/10 of those guilds have only seen GA yet and so cannot afford to try and PuG GA and risk a lockout. This will change with time.
 
Re-tuning raids to cater to those I mentioned above would be a complete slap in the face to this game in its entirety. 
 
Patience is a virtue.	
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All the changes made to attunement and gear + the amount of guilds who have cleared GA, have made pug and casual GA raiding much more possible.
 
Don´t have a count on all the casual guilds who started on GA around D3, but i know that a least 1 of them is 5/6, which clearly tells me that the scaling of GA is great, only nerfing of mechanics will make it noticeable easier.
 
All this, should make it much easier for players to find a guild, which can help em getting though attunement.	
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I'm delighted to hear it. Pray tell, what is the point of that rep grind? I'd love to hear an explanation from someone who claims that it's not needlessly tedious. You're the first to do so.
 
I think that any part of attunement that is tiresome, inconvenient, or tedious is something I'm not going to bother with whether it's difficult or not, so I think your question is made irrelevant by your off-topic constraint to the question. I've helpfully noted the off-topic constraint in red for you.
 
 
None, which is why I said:
 
 
Please note the bit in red that explicitly allows an alternate path to being carried.
 
Now here's a question for you.
 
Are you now asking loaded questions that literally ignore my answers to your previous questions because you didn't really want to get any reasonable answers to the questions you asked? Or is there some other reason that's just not obvious?
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If you really want to bring about some change in the attunement process you might want to reconsider your cynicism so that people actually listen to you and want to continue a constructive discourse.
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TL:DR
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			tbh old attunement was fine and getting your way through silver dungeons was at that time super hard and amazing. But people don't like hard and amazing, they want fast, and if something isn't fast, it is tedious or boring or retarded or unecessary brick wall. You can't lvl to 50, instantly hop into GA/DS and kick ass (unless you are a superhuman raid dev), that time sink that you hate so much make sure you have some kind of decent gear. Farming rep = making money for food, pot, runes, modules, vet adventures and dungeons = gears. People so impatiently want to get into raiding that they forget this time is needed to actually improve in gear, skills and obtaining money. You would have to spend the same amount of time attuning your character, than preparing it to raiding if you even happened to have instant access to raid.People don't want the need to get carried through attunement, yet they wanna get carried in raid by being undergeared and unprepared.	
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Yas, you're not helping your cause.  I've tried to talk with you about the topic and all you seem to want to do is sling mud my way based on some negative remembrance of me in past threads.
 
To answer your question about rep:  I don't find it tedious because I don't mind doing it.  Something being tedious is an opinion not an empirical classification.  Additionally I never said you or anyone else can't or shouldn't think its tedious.  In fact I said the exact opposite of that in the post you seem so excited about deconstructing and picking apart. 
 
"Oh, by the way: still finding it fun, and therefore still here."
 
The above quote was taken directly from your signature.  What "fun" aspect of the game are you taking part in that's kept you around?	
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This is a rude attack on someone who doesn't deserve this rage you're aiming at him. He asked you a simple question about your POV and was met only with hostility by you.
 
We can remove the attunement process, but the second I hear someone begging to have GA nerfed, their account should be deleted. Aside from a few bugs, GA is tuned perfectly for where you should start out after completing the current attunement. 
 
That being said, if you show up to a raid in greens or without complete attribute runes at a minimum, your account should also be deleted. I have no pity for those who want free rides without working for it. 
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Oh, the irony of chastising me about hostility in the same post where you start noting conditions in which people should have their accounts deleted for not doing what you want the way you want it.
 
So when you say "all I want to do is sling mud", should I presume that you stopped reading before you got to the part where you asked for a list of specific changes and redesigns and I provided it? Here they are again for both you and Psyknis, since you appear not to have spotted them.
 
 
Feel free to discuss rather than change topic.
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By the way, I was introduced to gaming when you had to load your game into the computer off a tape drive, so what you think of as old-school is what I think of as pre-school. And even though that's how I cut my teeth on gaming, I managed to learn to be OK with the idea that a 10 minute long loading process is not a good thing even if back in the day it gave you time to go get a soda and drink it before you play.
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Oh, the irony of chastising me about hostility in the same post where you start noting conditions in which people should have their accounts deleted for not doing what you want the way you want it.
 
So when you say "all I want to do is sling mud", should I presume that you stopped reading before you got to the part where you asked for a list of specific changes and redesigns and I provided it? Here they are again for both you and Psyknis, since you appear not to have spotted them.
 
 
Feel free to discuss rather than change topic.
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If attunement's so important, then you actually need to earn it yourself. No more carries. Those instances that Pyralos and World Bosses should be locked behind? If you've already completed those elements of attunement, you don't get to go back in. Veteran dungeons should not grant attunement credit to anyone if the group includes someone who is already attuned, and the group finder should include a "attunement run" option that goes into a queue which excludes people who have already completed the veteran dungeon part of attunement to facilitate that.
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There is a point to attunement. It's there to prove raid-readiness. There's three aspects that you need to demonstrate to do that.
 
1. do you understand how to spot mechanics and learn them
2. do you know how to play a role on a team
3. do you know how to work together with a lot of other players
 
Those things are why attunement is there. To make sure that people going into raids understand what they're doing before they get to a raid. Anything that is a requirement for attunement that is not required to prove those three things is unfocused bloat that just drags attunement out.
 
Note that the first one is not "have you personally experienced every mechanic". It's "do you know how to learn a mechanic". That's why requiring every veteran adventure and dungeon is a colossal waste of time. If you can do one veteran dungeon, you have proved you can learn a boss mechanic.
 
Several of the points you guys have raised in defense of the current process boil down to "you're going to have to do these things anyway even if they aren't explicitly an attunement requirement". Guess what guys, if I'm going to have to do them anyway then there's absolutely no reason to insist that they are explicit requirements on the attunement to-do list. The only reason to do that is if they aren't actually something I'm going to have to do anyway and you want to make sure they get done.
 
As for removing the ability for experienced raiders to just carry people over attunement, I fully expected that this was going to raise a lot of objections from people who perform those carries on a regular basis and no surprise--it did.
 
If the point of attunement is to prove that you're raid ready, you need to prove it. You don't need to prove that someone else who is already raiding can come do it for you. That completely removes any value to attunement--except, of course, that it makes the people who do the carrying VERY valuable and important. So I'll let these statements speak for themselves.
 
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My recent experience is different from yours.  We run, on average, about 2 vet WotWs a week.  We go in, we fight the other team, we take totems, we win.  More often than not, we get bronze.  Why?
The answer is that we're usually too fast - for example we capture all the totems and then the objective pops up to capture totems.  Or something similar.  We go in and we play efficiently, and the instance penalizes us for it.
Don't get me wrong - we'll do what we have to do to get people attuned when the time comes.  
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All this would do is make it impossible for newer players to complete attunement. Locking people out of helping friends/acquaintances isn't a good thing.
 
I like the open-world nature of world bosses, but I'm not sure I like their requirement for attunement. I definitely don't like having to worry about random spawn timers or hoping you're around when an event goes on. If they have to stay, I think turning it into a forced spawn thing in the open world would be best.
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			Let's play a game, spot the person that doesn't have a raid spot.	
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Let's play a game, spot the person that doesn't have a raid spot.
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Yasfan. You complain about every single aspect of this game, NOTHING you agree with
 
You cried in the housing, pvp, class and combat, PTR and various other sub forums. What do you like about this game? You seem to want to change every aspect of this game and turn it into some easy farmville version with nothing to do other than get to 50 and then raid EASY content accessible to god and every man.
 
Its okay for a MMO to keep players out of certain content if they:
 
1) Don't have the time and want to commit to it.
2) They are not skilled enough to get to the point where they get access.
3) They don't want to do it.	
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I think instead I'll spot the person who has run out of even remotely plausible-sounding arguments and has nothing left but dismissive insults.
 
But feel free to prove me wrong by providing a plausible reason why you're not invalidating the entire point of even having attunement at all when your raid guild uses their post-attunement raid gear to speed-carry people through it in a matter of hours.
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I did do this on my post before last, I'm sorry that you chose to ignore it. Us speed-carrying people through attunement doesn't invalidate the system. We still get people that get attuned by their own means. All speed-carrying does it expedite the process. We can still use the Dungeons to evaluate potential raiders.
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So is it that you just wanted to skip investing time into PvE to play PvE parts of the game? If the whole of the game is boring or tedious to you, why would the raid itself be any different?
 
I'm reading a lot of people talking that the attunement is very difficult or time consuming and that they want it to go away, but there aren't any suggestions on what a better system would be, or why the system itself is bad other than it's inconvenient for them to play the game as it was designed and that they just want to skip right to end game content.
 
I mean the devs even put in a Pristine Genesis Key into the game when a guild kills Ohmna. So you can even purchase your way into DS and GA pretty much when ever you want, which would completely bypass the attunement altogether.
 
If the attunement process is really truly too difficult for you and you can't make any progress, please detail which step you are having difficulty with and people will come out of the woodwork with suggestions and tips to make it easier for you. Using level and content appropriate gear is an excellent step. Doing the content and planning appropriate time to play is also another very good step.
 
If you want to cruise through a social game lone wolf style, you've chosen poorly and are making unreasonable demands of a game designed with social groups in mind. They even included Circles and Guilds separately so people could still form groups with people outside of their guilds to accomplish content.
 
Is your whole argument or complaint really that you are bored by the PvE content? Or that the content is too tedious or tiresome? Is it really inconvenient for you to play a game? If the answers are yes, to those, please give more details about which aspects are too tedious, tiresome or inconvenient. Is it really because you wanted to spend as little time as possible to get to 50 and then realized that you were mistaken about your choices in leveling and progression and now *gasp* you have to spend time playing the game?! How inconvenient indeed.
 
I say that because that's all that I was able to identify in your posts. That it's all boring and should be removed.
 
Counter point: it's not boring and it should stay. Benefit, doesn't take any additional development time to leave it in.
 
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If the only part of attunement that you need to decide if someone's raid-ready is how well they can be speed-carried through dungeons by people who are substantially overgeared for those same dungeons, then attunement contains a large number of steps that are completely superfluous for raid-readiness and the raid gear shouldn't be locked behind attunement because raid-readiness apparently doesn't need groups that don't have it.
 
So no, sorry, that wasn't a valid reason to keep attunement the way that it is. That was a very strong argument for changing it or removing it entirely.
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I think the attunement system right now is pretty good, it prepares people for raiding, and it does that rather well. But i do think adding a separate 'unattuned' endgame content is also a good idea. Things such as easier dungeons which don't have medals and offer lower reward than gold vet dungeons for more casual players, it wouldn't impact the 'hardcore' playerbase but it would help W* in gaining more players. Things like this will let everyone experience some kind of endgame content even if they're not 'into' raiding.
 
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The attunement should've been only this:  
 
Pyralos -> Vet Dungeons -> Ohmna -> Done
 
Maybe throw in the Adventures there so the content doesn't go to waste?  Idk.
 
World bosses are lame, they should just speed up rep grinds for your dailies.  Unless they are actually challenging and worthwhile to do, there's no reason for this to be a part of the attunement, let alone doing twelve long and boring ones..
 
Rep grinds... sure; everyone loves rep grinds!  Let's put that in one of the FIRST steps of the attunement... genius!
 
I realize that the attunement process also has lore quests involved, such as getting primal patterns from solo quests and the sort.  Find a way for these to be done elsewhere or reward players bonus stuff for completing this part of the quest (which should have nothing to do with being able to enter GA or DS).
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I don't mind they remove the attunement *AFTER* ;) I've finished it, not before. I do like having this long quest chain. So far I'm at "bronze age" 50% done. Would be done already if people understood newcomers need to learn stuff and they didn't quit in the first half of the dungeon when one little thing go wrong, here's an example :
 
SSM : 2 of us state at the very beginning that we've never done it. One nice guy explains things as we go, he divides the group in 2 and I'm in the half that needs to kick swordmaidens and the other newbie needs to kick another kind of maiden. We kill one boss, or maybe two, one seemed easy I thought it was more a mini boss than a boss, maybe another was an event I strictly didn't understand at all with floating contraptions. Everything was going well so far. Then on the way to... I don't know where... the group is separated in 2 because the tank and a DPS rush in front, while the nice guy the other newbie and I aggro a pack of slime-thing, that seemed to be a patrol. Without the tank and the other DPS, we manage to kill this patrol, while the tank and the DPS are not coming back at all. Instead they're getting attacked I have no clue why, they die, and then yell at us to ask us to die quickly and not make it longer...  :wacko: Then anyway they both leave...
 
The nice guy explains to us that they want silver or gold and that even with deserter debuff, at least for the tank he'll have an insta-pop.
 
I had been in the queue for 2 hours, did everything I was told to do, didn't die and half my afternoon was ruined... I have the name of the guild in my mind, whenever one of their officers asks me to join I'll make sure to explain why I won't join this guild...
 
Point is, not Carbine's fault, not the game's fault : it's the players, well some of them.
 
For me the same can be said about the attunement, if it doesn't work well : tis the player, not the game, not the company...	
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I don't mind they remove the attunement *AFTER* ;) I've finished it, not before. I do like having this long quest chain. So far I'm at "bronze age" 50% done. Would be done already if people understood newcomers need to learn stuff and they didn't quit in the first half of the dungeon when one little thing go wrong, here's an example :
 
SSM : 2 of us state at the very beginning that we've never done it. One nice guy explains things as we go, he divides the group in 2 and I'm in the half that needs to kick swordmaidens and the other newbie needs to kick another kind of maiden. We kill one boss, or maybe two, one seemed easy I thought it was more a mini boss than a boss, maybe another was an event I strictly didn't understand at all with floating contraptions. Everything was going well so far. Then on the way to... I don't know where... the group is separated in 2 because the tank and a DPS rush in front, while the nice guy the other newbie and I aggro a pack of slime-thing, that seemed to be a patrol. Without the tank and the other DPS, we manage to kill this patrol, while the tank and the DPS are not coming back at all. Instead they're getting attacked I have no clue why, they die, and then yell at us to ask us to die quickly and not make it longer...  :wacko: Then anyway they both leave...
 
The nice guy explains to us that they want silver or gold and that even with deserter debuff, at least for the tank he'll have an insta-pop.
 
I had been in the queue for 2 hours, did everything I was told to do, didn't die and half my afternoon was ruined... I have the name of the guild in my mind, whenever one of their officers asks me to join I'll make sure to explain why I won't join this guild...
 
Point is, not Carbine's fault, not the game's fault : it's the players, well some of them.
 
For me the same can be said about the attunement, if it doesn't work well : tis the player, not the game, not the company...
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If the only part of attunement that you need to decide if someone's raid-ready is how well they can be speed-carried through dungeons by people who are substantially overgeared for those same dungeons, then attunement contains a large number of steps that are completely superfluous for raid-readiness and the raid gear shouldn't be locked behind attunement because raid-readiness apparently doesn't need groups that don't have it.
 
So no, sorry, that wasn't a valid reason to keep attunement the way that it is. That was a very strong argument for changing it or removing it entirely.
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No it is the game fault, the reward for not doing silver/gold was not appealing enough for those other two. That is not the players fault. Why is it the players fault to waste time doing something that they can no longer gain benefit from.
 
Were the two in question not nicest of players, most probably. But it is not their fault with how the loot tree is set up. Or are they responsible for arranging bad loot drop rules?
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I'm confused Yasfan. You've said that they should just do away with attunement entirely but now you're suggesting changes that will significantly increase the level of difficulty. Are you simply making the point that if attunement stays it should be a more "true test" of a players ability?
 
On a side note: The current attunement quest line, excluding group content that allows for carries, includes enough work that it shows players are willing to put in some effort and stick with the tedious stuff (attunement) long enough to get to the good stuff (raiding). As a raid leader and recruiter that process tells me a lot about a player. It's pretty clear who the committed players are and aren't based on who complains about world bosses in guild chat and who does what it takes to get it done. I'm not saying that this alone is reason enough to keep the process around. Simply that it does serve a purpose to some.	
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I'd still like to know what it is about the attunement process that is an insurmountable hurdle that warrants doing away with it.
 
The quest chain is in place to give you access. The purpose is unlikely to be there to make sure you are raid worthy. Raid worthy boils down to finding 19 other attuned people who will raid with you. If you are unskilled or under geared you will have to find a group of 19 people more frequently than other more skilled or more geared players.
 
To support why the skill is not the focus, many of the encounters or quests are purely story driven and have nothing to do with teaching you skills you need for raid. Dropping dungeons to Bronze or better pretty much solidified Carbines position on it.
 
There are quests to be done and tasks to be accomplished before you are able to raid. Saying attunement should be taken away is on the same level of absurdity as saying there shouldn't be a level 50 requirement to raid. It's in the chain of events, the raids are balanced with gear expectations of being in 90% vet dungeon gear / crafted gear to survive mechanics. If you don't have these, then you will not survive the AoE mechanics of the bosses.
 
If you can't complete the pedestrian challenge of these 'waste of time' attunement steps, you do not deserve to raid.	
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Reading comprehension for the win : those 2 were responsible for their own wipe and loss of time. They were responsible for 3 other people wasting their queue time. Had they not rushed in the front, had they communicated, all this would never had happened. If the healer plus 2 DPS were able to manage the patrol they aggroed then if the tank and the other DPS had been there it would have been a minimal incident that wouldn't have (at that point) cost the group the silver/gold threshold.
 
It's too easy to always point at the newbies and say carbine and the game is faulty for the medal system whereas if the veterans were a bit more pro when they're pugging those problems would not arise.
 
It's the players here, not the game, not the company...
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Reading comprehension for the win : those 2 were responsible for their own wipe and loss of time. They were responsible for 3 other people wasting their queue time. Had they not rushed in the front, had they communicated, all this would never had happened. If the healer plus 2 DPS were able to manage the patrol they aggroed then if the tank and the other DPS had been there it would have been a minimal incident that wouldn't have (at that point) cost the group the silver/gold threshold.
 
It's too easy to always point at the newbies and say carbine and the game is faulty for the medal system whereas if the veterans were a bit more pro when they're pugging those problems would not arise.
 
It's the players here, not the game, not the company...
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[...]
 
A game that is ruinable by players being *cupcakes* is a badly designed game, because players who are *cupcakes* are a completely and reliably predictable component of the playerbase.
 
[...]
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It's their fault the dps was not following the tank/healer?
 
[...]
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Let's agree we disagree then. No matter how good the mechanics are, it will always be possible for *cupcakes* to ruin the enjoyment of others... On the other hands, even a game with bad mechanics can be enjoyed if players are not *cupcakes* with others.
 
Sorry, still can't blame the game or the company... On *that* matter...
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Yasfan you can invent all the merry dreams you want and call them facts. It's lovely to see people use the words "it's a fact" when there's absolutely NOTHING to back it up right after it. "other games blah blah blah"  : yeaaaaaaah riiiiiight...
 
And yes on that matter it's 100% player. I'm well aware of all the cries about reward differences for bronze compared to silver/gold. None of the people who moan about that gave a SINGLE thought about what would possibly happen if the balance was shifted and the possible detriment that would ensue for people trying to do gold/silver after that...
 
Whether or not you want to agree we disagree is irrelevant : we disagree in the end anyway...
 
Have a nice day :) !	
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We should change the dialog in this thread to just asking Yasfan why they hate the PvE in this game.
 
It's clear to everyone that Yasfan is unhappy and disgruntled with the current PvE and wants to Raid, but can't raid or can't do the attunement for what ever reason. This assumption is based on that people who complete the attunement are not really unhappy with it's current iteration and don't struggle with time management skills or struggle with enjoying the game.
 
So we need more clarification on why spending a few hours doing quests to get Rep and experience for level 50 is a true grind, or why doing world bosses for a day or two is a real grind, or why any of the other attunement steps are stupid and boring.
 
So, Yasfan, why do you hate playing this game?	
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It's their fault the dps was not following the tank/healer?
 
But you are failing to see my point. There being a wipe or not being a wipe is not the real cause for the dungeon falling apart, it is the fact the game makes not silvering/golding dungeons/adventures not being worth running.
 
So you are worried about the fact there was a wipe. I think the problem was the system in place to make it only worth running on silver/gold is the problem. Do you see the difference?
 
If you were doing a root cause analysis you didn't finish your why analysis. But then again Tap Root is a lot more common way of looking at things now days.
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So, Yasfan, why do you hate playing this game?
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Most likely, I would hazard to guess, she is one of those rare individuals that is to good to be in a guild. Those types that can't be bothered to roll around in the mud with us common folk. That, or she's just a dickpickle.
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Most likely, I would hazard to guess, she is one of those rare individuals that is to good to be in a guild. Those types that can't be bothered to roll around in the mud with us common folk. That, or she's just a dickpickle.
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So, Yasfan, why do you hate playing this game?
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Some things (rhteorics) to consider:
 
Are you lazy?
Coming from the days of isometric "3D" mmos in the 1990s, I noticed gaming generation of today are weaker, complaining so much more over tedious but doable contents. Somehow they just give up. Sorry but I think many of you guys are just lazy, and are more suited play simple games like candy crush. Attunement was intended and can be done and can STILL BE DONE because many have done it and I see many newly attuned players.
 
Are you below the 1% percentile in terms of "skills"?
I consider myself a mediocre player (most people are less dumbfark than me, my guild can vouch for it :lol:) and yet I can do it, it just means most of you guys can do it too, so put in some serious effort, coordinate something, and takes some time to get attuned.
 
Are you guildless? Or is your guild useless?
If you are not in a guild, try to get a guild because good ones usually try to help their new-comers get attuned, especially when they need members for raids. If none of your guildies help you even you request for help the whole month, then I think you should start looking for one that helps its members (Guilds needs members to grow and sustain themselves).
 
In short, if your answers are NO to all the above questions, I think attunement can be done. If you somehow find an excuse to remain unattuned, in all frank-ness then I suggest you stick to the MMO-RPG contents you deserve.  :)
 
To those who got offended, just turn your eyes away for these are simply the hard truths. Just plain honesty, not flaming, just want to initiate some reflections among forum members, no hard feelings brudders. :) Cheers. B)
 
- From a working adult / an mmo player since the 1990s, a married man, who leads a balanced life, but managed to do his attunements.	
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SIGH. That seems like a bunch of condescending and irrelevant "e-peen" self-stroking there, Cefixime. Allow me to elaborate:
 
 
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Some things (rhteorics) to consider:
 
Are you lazy?
Coming from the days of isometric "3D" mmos in the 1990s, I noticed gaming generation of today are weaker, complaining so much more over tedious but doable contents. Somehow they just give up. Sorry but I think many of you guys are just lazy, and are more suited play simple games like candy crush. Attunement was intended and can be done and can STILL BE DONE because many have done it and I see many newly attuned players.
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Nice to see the social aspects of raiding at their finest. Again.
 
Thank you. Much appreciated.
 
 
Khavaltre has raised a completely off-topic question that has no relevance at all to whether or not attunement was a source of widespread complaints from people as they fled this game in a stampede so profound that it made the SWTOR post-launch exodus look tame in comparison. 
 
If you want to know what I spend my time in game doing, you're welcome to open a thread and ask. THIS thread presumes that the game's stated development strategy of "Everything About The PvE Endgame Funnels Into Raiding" is going to continue to be true and asks how to tweak attunement or work around it to prevent that strategy from failing completely by keeping raids locked behind a process that requires you to love raiding before you ever even get to a raid.
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SIGH. That seems like a bunch of condescending and irrelevant "e-peen" self-stroking there, Cefixime. Allow me to elaborate:
 
 
 
Main fault in logic: "People did it, therefore, it's fine!"  
 
Also, a second fault in logic: Failing to recognize that humans age, that yougner men (and women) have more time to throw at meaningless tasks that could be considered 'entertainment', then blaming people for being 'lazy' instead of being victims of the reality of having limited time to invest in their entertainment.
 
 
 
 
 
Main logical flaw: "I did it, therefore, everyone can!" 
 
 
 
Main logical flaw: "My group could do it, therefore, any group can!"
 
Are you noticing the trend yet? No? It's the whole "I did it, therefore anyone can and should" logic that goes nowhere and serves no purpose. Just like our current attunement.
See, Cef, I don't think I've seen anyone arguing seriously that attunement is impossible. We are arguing at it being a useless set of actions that serve no purpose, challenge nobody and that favors people being carried. The fact that people can and will do it (mostly by being carried around by others who overpower the content) doesn't mean that it is useful or serves a purpose. Yet you spent three paragraphs being 'frank' about how it's possible when that's never been in question.
 
What's been in question is its usefulness and purpose.
 
Rewrite your 'rethorics', because they are only a badly veiled and aggrandized self-promotion.
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You have turned this topic into a personal crusade against PvE in the game and are adamantly refusing to explain yourself.
 
So why do you hate this game?
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I don't hate PvE in this game. If I did, I wouldn't be here trying to get people like Timetravel to start looking at the real problem with attunement and stop acting like we all just don't know how to play. Instead, I'd be on some MMO hub strangling the interest of people who haven't already bought it, just like everyone else you guys managed to run out of the game.
 
Guess what, in retrospect maybe you guys shouldn't have done that.
 
 
It's intended function is to retain players rather than irritate the hell out of them so much that they leave and turn the phrase "Hardcore" into the joke that it's become. So yes, it's failing very badly at its intended function.
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Khavaltre has raised a completely off-topic question that has no relevance at all to whether or not attunement was a source of widespread complaints from people as they fled this game in a stampede so profound that it made the SWTOR post-launch exodus look tame in comparison. 
 
If you want to know what I spend my time in game doing, you're welcome to open a thread and ask. THIS thread presumes that the game's stated development strategy of "Everything About The PvE Endgame Funnels Into Raiding" is going to continue to be true and asks how to tweak attunement or work around it to prevent that strategy from failing completely by keeping raids locked behind a process that requires you to love raiding before you ever even get to a raid.
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Which parts are unnecessary? The elder gem part? You can obtain 150 in a matter of hours/days depending on your play style, and then you start earning cash for each kill, which goes to buying gear that you're going to need in order to raid anyway. 
 
The elemental boss? It took me a few times as a fresh 50 to figure out the mechanics, but figuring out the pattern gives you an idea of of what you'll face in the following steps. 
 
The rep grind? If you didn't hit 50 at 25k+ you skipped a lot. You can go back and do the story quests to catch up. Or practice some of the adventures or dungeons and you'll hit it in no time. Only the adventures won't count, but as you need silver and there's decent upgrades in them, you'll probably be running them a few times anyway. 
 
The world bosses? 12 seems like a lot, but each has its own thing that will have you better prepared for what you'll face in the raids. The bosses themselves require no coordination, just a tank, some healers and DPS. Don't stand in red and at least on Dom side, they're always being done. Someone calls out that one is up and a group is formed pretty quickly. If there's no one organizing that for your side, there's your cue to start up a LFM channel and make things easier for people. They aren't mini-raids as every one is basically a tank and spank with a few wrinkles here and there on a few of them. 
 
Dungeons? They're tough at first, but get easier once you know the mechanics. The challenges are another ramp up in difficulty, but for attunement you don't have to really worry about them. Being able to finish them will prepare you for raiding because the raids don't get easier. You can't just require one dungeon, because each dungeon has bosses that do completely different things, just like each boss in raids do. Each level of group experience in this game prepares you to be better equipped to face the next level. If you had only run STL, you wouldn't be prepared to raid in either gear or experience needed to even kill trash in GA. 
 
Overall it seems like a lot, but the steps get you ready, both mentally and gear wise to step into the first raid. Personally, I found some of the side quests that you did solo were tedious, but that's because they really didn't follow the other path of progress. They were slow and weren't preparing me for the next step, they were just an extra step. But, I had to look at it like a big quest chain, which it is, and together it was an ok experience. I went from 0-15 in 3 days /played. Hit attunement with 7 days /played and I didn't go at it hardcore. 
 
So which steps do you find tedious and problematic? And how would you change them without changing their purpose of preparing you to raid? Is the preparation to raid also tedious and problematic? 	
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Which parts are unnecessary? The elder gem part? You can obtain 150 in a matter of hours/days depending on your play style, and then you start earning cash for each kill, which goes to buying gear that you're going to need in order to raid anyway. 
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I actually took time to read all of the comments. Wow.But let me tell you my story, my point of view of all of this. 
The attunement, when you look at it as a separate quest, is boring, indeed. But when you actually play the game, do PvE, it wont seem as an endless quest nomore.I personally didn't have problems with the reputation since I levelled up doing quests (like in any other mmo) without even knowing I was working towards my attunement. When hitting 50, I learned that there is such a thing as attuning to get to raids. I found it fair enough since I was doing only adventures, slightly afraid to go completely naked in veteran dungeons (heared they were hard) and didn't even imagine to start raiding when hitting 50. I played all the adventures multiple times. It was fun, I got gear, til I felt like its getting a bit too easy and decided its time! So I started to do dungeons. Oh, so much fun! And more loot!!! Yay! Some dungeons were a real puzzle to me, some so hard, too much to avoid, OMG! Got even kicked some times for sucking. Life goes on, WS is fun! When I mastered most of the dungeons and got almost all gear suitable as preraid gear, I went on with the attunement. The world bosses were boring, I guess, but did them all in 2 days, so cannot say it was a grind. But overall, this is all part of an mmo - there are stuff you don't like but "need" to do when you want to be good (like doing those horrible dailies every mmo has).Now I am done with the attunement. Raiding GA and DS. I would have never even wanted to start raiding before finishing the easier content successfully. I have some pride and don't want people to carry my dead ass around. But YOU want to see it yourself. YOU want to have no restrictions to raids. You say attunement steps are boring and take too long. I wouldn't want to break it to you, but these are the days you will remember and miss when you sit your ass 6 hours a day wiping and wiping and wiping in a raid. Then dare to tell us again that you are bored. Even if you could raid straight away, noone would take you. You would bring the whole raid down with your who-knows-what-gear bc you don't like to do dungeons nor adventures (part of attunement that you said you don't like). People call out a wipe when ONE person dies in 40-man raid. Do you want to be that ONE? Have some dignity girl! Get geared and the attunement will fill up itself.<3	
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If you cant do the current attunement, then for everyone who likes to raid, don't do it and do the content the game offers you or move on.
 
Yes its harsh and we will lose players but thats how a MMO founded on the core of being hard should be.	
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It is not like every guild or player has the potential around him or herself to do this (and not even the necessary gear). For me, it is true what you say. For the majority it is not.
 
 
 
 
"No time" would mean instant. I am afraid this is not true. Again, if you don't have to rely on random queues this is very easy and fast + Head of Ohmna ... THIS would be attunement in "no time". If you don't have these peeps. It might take a long time.
 
 
 
 
??? What preparation? So, if I kill 12 world bosses, I am prepared for Ohmna? I see a big disconnect here. Every boss encounter requires coordination and tactic until a certain "gear level". GA in <3h, no problem. There so many mechanics one can disable by putting enough DPS in it; Phagemaw... down before first air phase, zero mechanics to take care off.
Still, there are circles and things which can speed up this step - no question.
 
 
 
 
WHY WILL THIS PREPARE ANYTHING???????????????????? If you can do Swordmaiden in 30 minutes you have absolutely no preparation for Avatus or X89 or spider boss DS (earth wing). If you don't know how to use WASD or Jump, you probably don't know which year it is. Stop telling this (really common) lie. I can craft my whole gear without setting a foot in a dungeon.
 
 
 
 
I hardly disagree. Maybe it because of the wording. A preparation enables me to do things without further or additional instruction(s) - they just help me to do these things I (already) know. This isn't even true for the first miniboss of GA - if I follow your concept of preparation by dungeons and world bosses #lol. Imagine, 20 peeps with your method will encounter X89 - without a viable strategy. At some point they have to develop a strategy, at least to kite the boss( + tank swap).
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I really only have an issue with one part of attunement (the world bosses), but the thing that bothers me about folk defending attunement is one little assumption they all are making...
 
Stop equating not wanting to do attunement with being unwilling to gear up for raids. I can't think of any reasonable person who would expect to be able to do a raid in their questing greens. Attunement and running adventures/dungeons for gear do not have to come hand-in-hand. 	
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I really only have an issue with one part of attunement (the world bosses), but the thing that bothers me about folk defending attunement is one little assumption they all are making...
 
Stop equating not wanting to do attunement with being unwilling to gear up for raids. I can't think of any reasonable person who would expect to be able to do a raid in their questing greens. Attunement and running adventures/dungeons for gear do not have to come hand-in-hand.
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Yet, that is part of the design rationale I have to believe. Attunement is indeed a defined "path" for people to understand there is something they have to do to get ready for raiding. Because believe me, many people don't grasp that like you or I, especially coming from WoW where there are 14 difficulties for every piece of content etc. Attainment set in front of a player means its the path they take it raid preparation.
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The difference is, when it's just a matter of getting enough gear, it's you who decides when you are ready, rather than the attunement being a big ol' wall of "nope" until it's done. Running adventures/dungeons for gear also follows in the spirit of raiding a lot better than an attunement chain that includes disparate things like some solo quests, a rep grind, and world boss hunting. So I can fully understand why people would enjoy the former but not the latter.
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Yep, the question is, did you make the right call?
Making the wrong call on "ready for raiding" not only puts you back, also the 19/39 people that took you along, because you basically wasted a spot.
Sure, you can carry probably one person through, but let's be honest, that's not what raiding should be about.
 
So the attunement, or "big wall of nope" can definitely help someone gauge for himself whether he's ready to start raiding or not.
I do agree, that the attunement in WildStar can be done different or better to get a good grasp for being ready, cause right now it doesn't....
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Yep, the question is, did you make the right call?
Making the wrong call on "ready for raiding" not only puts you back, also the 19/39 people that took you along, because you basically wasted a spot.
Sure, you can carry probably one person through, but let's be honest, that's not what raiding should be about.
 
So the attunement, or "big wall of nope" can definitely help someone gauge for himself whether he's ready to start raiding or not.
I do agree, that the attunement in WildStar can be done different or better to get a good grasp for being ready, cause right now it doesn't....
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Yep, the question is, did you make the right call?
Making the wrong call on "ready for raiding" not only puts you back, also the 19/39 people that took you along, because you basically wasted a spot.
Sure, you can carry probably one person through, but let's be honest, that's not what raiding should be about.
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It's the raid's decision to let an undergeared person in or not. It's not like the attunement process prevents someone from being undergeared.
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Yes, excellent point on raid readiness. This was a point a lot of players were trying to make when they changed the silver dungeon requirement to bronze, however Carbine made the decision that the attunement process was not actually there to prepare you for raid, the attunement process was content to do before you raid.
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Ah, I see. This is why you're so insistent that attunement has nothing to do with raid-readiness. Because they dropped the dungeon requirement from silver to bronze. Of course, I might have guessed.  :rolleyes:
 
Well then. Since apparently Carbine ruined the entire point of attunement when they did that, must be time to take it out.
 
Fixed for you, corrections in red.
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			I honestly like attunements as long as they go along with the lore of the raid aka a story of some sort behind them. WIldstar didn't take that approach but its also very easy to get attuned and really does not take that long. There always seems to be groups running world bosses or other attunements, at least on the exile side. I do believe that a player should be in a guild by max level, its just not the responsible not to. MMO's should not be about taking on the world by yourself and they are meant to be a place to socialize, granted finding the right guild can take time. Find a guild that suits you and people will help you out with attunements or anything else they possibly can, that's just my experience though.	
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You asked some of us for ideas, which we provided, and then you proceeded to ignore them.  Additionally many of us, myself included, have asked you questions about what you like doing in the game so that Attunement can maybe be shifted in that direction which you also decided not to answer and instead responded with snide and sarcastic remarks.
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Quote for me where I asked you for ideas? I don't recall it--the only thing I asked you about with any substance related to the topic of the thread was to explain why you didn't view the rep grind as unnecessary tedium. As near as I can tell, your answer boiled down to "a willingness to endure tedium lets my guild know you're committed".
 
As for the many questions I've been asked about what I enjoy doing, it simply isn't relevant. I am aware that you disagree. Your rationale for disagreement is that if only we all knew what people enjoy doing, attunement could do THAT. That's a completely ridicuous idea that makes attunement even more bloated and unfocused than it already is. Attunement is supposed to have a point to it--to demonstrate some minimal level of proficiency at the things that happen in raids before you start raiding. If I enjoy housing, should they shift attunement to include making a really decked out house? Of course not. That would be stupid. 
 
And by the way, because I'd hate for you to feel like your ideas are being ignored, the same reason why housing shouldn't be a part of attunement also applies to why tedium shouldn't be a part of attunement. Attunement is about raid-readiness. It's not about making your guild recruitment process easier. I don't need to want into your guild to be able to pull my weight in a raid instance.
 
As for helping Carbine change attunement to make it more focused and less unappealing to people who haven't done it already, I've made several suggestions about what's wrong and how to fix it in this very thread. Shall I compile them into a new post for you so they're all in one place and easy to spot? You do seem to have forgotten them, since your post doesn't mention them.
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Please do compile for the rest of us, we've lost track of anything useful you've mentioned in all your diatribe.
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Yasfan have you completed the requirements for attunement that you have presented?
 
If yes, can we see a picture of your gear/logs of the GA fights you've done?
 
If no, what have you done to make the above true?	
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Yasfan have you completed the requirements for attunement that you have presented?
 
If yes, can we see a picture of your gear/logs of the GA fights you've done?
 
If no, what have you done to make the above true?
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Protip: design principles are true or false based on their own merits and not based on achievement log screenshots--which are 100% irrelevant to anything except the egos of some MMORPG players.
 
If you have a problem with what I've suggested, you can object to it based on its merits. Should be easy if there's something in there I've said that's just obviously factually or conceptually wrong about the game components in the post.
 
If you want to make sure I have the mad skillz required to raid with you, you can demand all the logs/gearlists you want, the next time we're in a group together. But since I don't have to play with you to share the game with you or give due respect to your opinions, that won't happen if I have anything to say about it, because I don't think either of us would enjoy raiding with the other at all.
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