147160-pay-to-win

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As per: https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/147110-cost-of-removing-runes/
 
It can cost up to 60 service tokens to remove a single rune.  That's plainly pay-to-win, since there's no way omnibits can keep up with that cost in anyone's imagination.  Runes are a KEY part of gearing up - proper runing fully doubles the power of a gear set, so there's no way to imagine that this doesn't affect gameplay either.
 
I don't raid anymore (I pvp now), so this doesn't affect me as much (the runes I use are lower level thus cheaper), but I am very unhappy to see it in Carbine's business model.
 
I will not be paying RL money in any form to Carbine until this practice is ended.	
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Speaking as a fellow pvper, I would like to mention that removing runes, and keeping them, can also be done with plat. And, as a fellow pvper, I should hope that you would find your pockets lined rich with platinum due to the amazing amount of money that can be earned solely through pvp. Finding the money to do this should be quite easy.
 
Or, you could also choose to simply destroy your runes when removing them. You said it yourself that you superb sets are much cheaper to make.
 
Lastly, if you used to do PvE content, then I would hope you were doing it with PvE gear. That would mean you were in need of gathering your pvp set. Which would mean putting fresh runes in those slots. Which would mean not needing to remove the runes in the first place. Meaning, I have little ability to see the validity of your argument.	
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			You can remove runes with plat, where is the pay to win ?  :huh:	
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Like the poster above pointed out, play the game earn some gold! I know...I know it sounds outrageous? But actually playing can cover the gold cost...PLAY TO WIN   	
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			How is that even remotely pay to win? :/	
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How is that even remotely pay to win? :/
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As per: https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/147110-cost-of-removing-runes/
 
It can cost up to 60 service tokens to remove a single rune.  That's plainly pay-to-win, since there's no way omnibits can keep up with that cost in anyone's imagination.  Runes are a KEY part of gearing up - proper runing fully doubles the power of a gear set, so there's no way to imagine that this doesn't affect gameplay either.
 
I don't raid anymore (I pvp now), so this doesn't affect me as much (the runes I use are lower level thus cheaper), but I am very unhappy to see it in Carbine's business model.
 
I will not be paying RL money in any form to Carbine until this practice is ended.
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			It's cheaper to make almost any rune than it is to remove it; unless you're using a non-craftable rune, just make a new one.	
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			That's not P2W at all.	
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			Some players like our OT really don't know what the term P2W means.	
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This is not Pay to Win.
 
This is Crabine's BUSINESS MODEL. The entire freaking model revolves around Service Tokens. I know I've explained this before, probably in the thread you linked.	
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I don't see how being able to pay money to move a good rune from one piece of gear to another piece of gear for co-op content offers the person who a paid an "unfair competitive advantage" in any way.
 
"OMG, he paid money to move his pure rune to his new gear and now he contributes 0.0015% more damage to the raid's total damage - I CALL BULLSHIT!"
 
Nope, doesn't make sense to me.	
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I don't see how being able to pay money to move a good rune from one piece of gear to another piece of gear for co-op content offers the person who a paid an "unfair competitive advantage" in any way.
 
"OMG, he paid money to move his pure rune to his new gear and now he contributes 0.0015% more damage to the raid's total damage - I CALL BULLSHIT!"
 
Nope, doesn't make sense to me.
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The real question, Mr Jeff, is why are you still paying a sub? Is the XP and Gold Buff really worth it to you, or are you just hanging on to your subscription out of misguided loyalty?
 
You should just sink that $15/month into Service Tokens or NCCoin. That's what they want you to do. They WANT you feel that because you aren't paying a subscription, that you will be more willing to spend more than $15/month.
 
Don't. If that makes you feel uncomfortable. Buy tokens/coins and get the benefits you NEED as opposed to benefits you don't want or can't use. I know you've got to be at least T5 Cosmic Points, so really, what is a sub offering you?	
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But how is a $15 coin purchase different than a $15 sub? Are both not real money?
 
I ain't trying to convince you of anything, it just seems like as a smart guy, that you'd see the writing on the wall and react accordingly to get the benefits that are most attractive to a person with your playstyle.
 
I mean, hey, if it's working for you, knock yourself out. I've already decided to unsubscribe once I finish leveling my Dominion Warrior and just make coin purchases. I just don't play enough to warrant a subscription anymore, and it's a waste of money to pay for something you're not using.
 
It's a weird feeling, to be sure. I always subscribe to any "free" game I play because the perks in every other instance are worth it. Shame that the game I love most, just isn't.	
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The real question, Mr Jeff, is why are you still paying a sub? Is the XP and Gold Buff really worth it to you, or are you just hanging on to your subscription out of misguided loyalty?
 
You should just sink that $15/month into Service Tokens or NCCoin. That's what they want you to do. They WANT you feel that because you aren't paying a subscription, that you will be more willing to spend more than $15/month.
 
Don't. If that makes you feel uncomfortable. Buy tokens/coins and get the benefits you NEED as opposed to benefits you don't want or can't use. I know you've got to be at least T5 Cosmic Points, so really, what is a sub offering you?
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You can remove runes with plat, where is the pay to win ?  :huh:
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But how is a $15 coin purchase different than a $15 sub? Are both not real money?
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The plat pricing is insanely expensive for many people.  There's a very narrow pattern of play that can afford these prices without having to resort to grinding for hours, depend on lucky drops, play the markets or do something bannable.  The trick is to fill your EG bar, pop a flask of greed and run a bunch of high xp content and never ever spend your Omnibits on anything other than Service Tokens.
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			I've already spoken my peace about this. If you are referring to another post, why do you need to create a new one? Seriously. 	
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Some players like our OT really don't know what the term P2W means.
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Come on.  If there is an option to pay for something that is also available to grind, it's paying for convenience, not paying to win.
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Some players have become far too desensitized by horrendous business practices in other F2P mmos and no longer have a reasonable definition of P2W.
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Come on.  If there is an option to pay for something that is also available to grind, it's paying for convenience, not paying to win.
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So if your only argument is that the plat cost is too high... that isn't pay to win. It is pay for convenience. You can either grind out OmniBits, Plat or buy NCoin (it's an MMO, there is always a grind. If you don't like grinding, stop playing MMOs). There are three options. I would agree it is Pay to Win if the ONLY way to remove runes was to buy NCoin.
 
Honestly, if they just gave the premium players a bundle of omnibits each month, a lot of these complaints will go away. Not all, but a good chunk.
 
150-200 Omnibits a month? I think that would be sufficient.
			
				
	Edited November 17, 2015 by h4vix	
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Two of those options involve spending currency in the cash shop. I will never spend currency in a cash shop on items that affect gear power - never. It's why I have tried so hard over the years to stick to P2P MMOs. That kind of choice never even comes up there.
 
Omnibits should be a currency people use for fun cosmetic cash shop purchases, not something they have to set aside to rune their dang gear.
 
And yeah, MMOs are "all about" the grind, but when the company sets up such lopsided choices, where the cash purchase is exponentially easier than the in-game option... that is pay-to-win. Labeling things as "pay for convenience" is emblematic of just how desensitized crappy f2p companies have made people. It used to be that any hint of power on a cash shop was derided. Now it's excused as a "convenience". Shameful.	
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			ONE options REQUIRES cash. The other is either grinding or cash. So really its 50/50.	
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TWO options involve the cash shop. Period.
 
[edit] Purchasing Service Tokens with Omnibits is tantamount to purchasing them with NCoin in my mind, as both represent a support of the Service Token system.
			
				
	Edited November 17, 2015 by Naunet	
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IN YOUR MIND that's how you are thinking about it. You said it yourself, the only thing you will spend cash on is cosmetic items. So save up your OmniBits and buy the Service Tokens. 
 
Just because you can spend cash on it, doesn't mean you have to.
 
But at this point, we are just going to have to agree to disagree.	
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Didn't make this thread to argue, more to raise awareness and fish for responses to see how many other people were bothered.  So I'll just drop some numbers and see what happens.
 
At my personal, normal rate of play (no farming), I make about 10p per week.  That's roughly 5 days of play for one raid-level rune extraction.
 
60 service tokens are 60 omnibits, or about half a weeks play worth.
 
60 service tokens are 120 ncoins, or about $1.50.
 
One piece of gear can have 5 rune slots.
 
One piece of gear can be up to $7.50 worth of slots, or two to three weeks of normal (non grinding) play worth of gold or omnibits.
 
There are 7 pieces of runeable gear in a full set.
 
That's up to $52.50 to extract all runes from all slots, or more then a month of normal play in either plat or omnibits.
 
None of this includes the initial cost of rolling those slots in the first place.
 
Granted, no-one is likely to extract all their runes from all their gear at one time - but those numbers should put into perspective just how much those slots are worth.  Runing and re-runing gear is not an optional part of gameplay (for raiders), either, because the gear treadmill is part of the game design.  That means this is not a one and done deal - you will encounter these costs in some form at every raid level and every new content drop.
 
For PVPers, it also means that gear inflation and power creep are financially incentivized for Carbine, and game/class balance is not.
			
				
	Edited November 17, 2015 by PaxAmarria	
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One piece of gear can be up to $7.50 worth of slots, or two to three weeks of normal (non grinding) play worth of gold or omnibits.
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			Solution: Don't put anything worth extracting into gear you are going to be replacing anytime soon.
			
				
	Edited November 17, 2015 by degenerate	
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Solution: Don't put anything not worth extracting into gear you are going to be replacing anytime soon.
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But you are assuming you have to move ALL of the runes EVERY time you get a new piece. That isn't always necessary.
 
If you are leveling up, you shouldn't be putting the BEST runes in your slots. Call me crazy, but it's pretty easy to level up and you really shouldn't be dumping that much money into runes as you do so. My opinion, to each his/her own.
 
Now, for raiders... it's a different story. Some people want to Min/Max as they are progressing through GA/DS. This is where the plat sink comes into play. You don't need to have the best set up of runes as you are progressing. The min/maxing really comes into play when you get into DS and start getting your BIS pieces. IMHO, you should really be focusing on Min/Maxing once you get your BIS pieces. If you choose not to do this, then that's your decision. 
 
Granted, I didn't get a lot of exceptionals, but I did have a lot of rune tokens so for the most part I was rocking a 2 point rune and 4 1 point runes. Once I got my DS token pieces, I started min/maxing the runes.	
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If I could predict that I could win the stock market.
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It's actually very easy to predict if you know what content you're working on and what drops in said content.
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An upgrade could drop tomorrow, or an upgrade could drop 4 months from now. There is no way to know.
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			Did you play pre-f2p? I was able to run dungeon gear in optimal runes outside of the raid-exclusive set and spent maybe 10p on the entire thing. Just try and do that nowadays...	
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Did you play pre-f2p? I was able to run dungeon gear in optimal runes outside of the raid-exclusive set and spent maybe 10p on the entire thing. Just try and do that nowadays...
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Umm... no you couldn't. Do you remember the price of exceptional specter runes? It would cost me more than 10p to rune out a single new piece of gear.
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If you can play for it, then it's not pay-to-win.
 
There is no "yeah, but" to it. That is literally what "pay-to-win" means. That's the definition. That's how it's always been. There was no "golden age" where everybody had the same definition of the phrase as you.
 
If you want to argue that you still think it's a bad free-to-play model, okay. If you want to argue that the gold prices are too high, okay. But if you want to attack another player's sense of character by telling them that they've been "desensitized" to the point of no longer having "reasonable" standards, just so you can retain the ability to inappropriately use "pay-to-win" because you know it's a buzzword that gets peoples' attention and invokes a certain response, then take that nonsense somewhere else. That's not cool.	
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Contracts, man. xD The only runes I bought were a couple from the esper class set when I ran out of mats to craft them.
 
 
No that is not how it's "always been". If you can pay to advance your power, then that is pay-to-win.
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Contracts, man. xD The only runes I bought were a couple from the esper class set when I ran out of mats to craft them.
 
 
No that is not how it's "always been". If you can pay to advance your power, then that is pay-to-win.
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If you have an upgrade within reach (whether it drops tomorrow or in 4 months) then you probably shouldn't rune BIS runes. Runing as best you can without min/maxing is your smartest option. The difference between having those BIS runes is not going to make or break your raid progression, not by a long shot.
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If you have an upgrade within reach (whether it drops tomorrow or in 4 months) then you probably shouldn't rune BIS runes. Runing as best you can without min/maxing is your smartest option. The difference between having those BIS runes is not going to make or break your raid progression, not by a long shot.
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This does not apply to class sets, which is where the major pain of extraction is. You can pretty much get by without extraction except for the class sets. If I have ilvl 96 shoulders and pants and a GA class set, you better believe I'm going to slot that bad boy anyway. And It's not the kind of thing you can easily re-purchase to replace.
 
But the plat option has more or less address that. It's still going to cost you around 20 plat to extract that set (~15 plat for the majors, and re-purchase the minors), which is hefty, but livable for something you won't do that often (since you can easily blow 100 plat creating it in the first place if you actually bought it). When it was service token ONLY to do that, then yes, it was pretty ugly. P2W or NOT P2W, I dont' care what you call it, but it was a place where carbine was clearly encouraging you to spend money to do something necessary in game. Thankfully, they've adressed it.
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I made 25 plat (not exaggerating), from hardcore pvping over the weekend. Got full ability and amp points unlocked on a medic. The gold reward for pvp is very generous and you don't even have to win to make good money. 
 
All those people crying about repair and rune costs make me  sad.	
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I made 25 plat (not exaggerating), from hardcore pvping over the weekend. Got full ability and amp points unlocked on a medic. The gold reward for pvp is very generous and you don't even have to win to make good money. 
 
All those people crying about repair and rune costs make me  sad.
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Good grief. I don't want to know what you consider "hardcore pvping" if you managed to make 17p more than me, when I played for a good 4 hours yesterday, 7 hours on saturday, and 3 on Friday. XD
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14 out of 72 is not "hardcore" for anyone in the video game world.
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Free to play games have to have players spending money on them to stay in business. As long as there's also a plat or omnibit option, I'm pretty much good with it. Wake me up when the average player has to spend more than $15 a month on service tokens to play. At that point, they'll be pushing the limits. 
 
That all said, I really think the sub option could use some free service tokens or free omnibits each month. I can see where players paying a sub and feeling they have to buy service tokens could be pretty understandably upset. 
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Free to play games have to have players spending money on them to stay in business. As long as there's also a plat or omnibit option, I'm pretty much good with it. Wake me up when the average player has to spend more than $15 a month on service tokens to play. At that point, they'll be pushing the limits. 
 
That all said, I really think the sub option could use some free service tokens or free omnibits each month. I can see where players paying a sub and feeling they have to buy service tokens could be pretty understandably upset. 	
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You're about 15 years out of date.  Today's MMO demographic simply doesn't have the health or desire to pull all nighters incessantly grinding.
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Keep telling yourself that, someday it might be true.
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			Idk, my biggest question in this ongoing "discussion" about rune slots and service tokens is...why the hell are you guys taking runes off of your gear so often? Set it and forget it- costs 0 service tokens. Making changes to "Epic" level gear a whole bunch is going to be expensive, so don't do that. (or like others suggest, spend plat instead of service tokens if you prefer, or omnibits to buy tokens....at any rate, you can't call it "P2W" if there are multiple ways for you to avoid doing it and still win.)
			
				
	Edited November 17, 2015 by Pygar Jetrunner	
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That's not pay to win lol. At all. If RNG was to deny you or if you didn't have the plat, then all that would happen is you would be playing less optimally. Somebody would have slightly better stats then you if they had better set runes. Which you will get in time, by making plat. Or by skipping that process and just paying for service tokens for slightly better stats.
 
It's nowhere near pay to win. This is over reacting in it's finest. 	
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You're about 15 years out of date.  Today's MMO demographic simply doesn't have the health or desire to pull all nighters incessantly grinding.
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			Regardless, I don't think pulling all-nighters PvPing should be used as a metric for how much plat you should be able to earn. xD	
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I've received 120 service tokens just from daily login rewards and Madam Fay. Yes, Madam Fay cost me real $ but that was a choice I made not something that was forced on me. I actually used a few just yesterday to change rune slot's in my gear. Considering the game gives them to you for free every 10 day's you log in starting at day 2 (2, 12, 22, 32, 42 etc) I don't consider it P2W, maybe W(wait)2W if you don't want to use any real money.
 
You can remove runes with plat and service tokens or just destroy for free. It doesn't seem like P2W since you earn service tokens for free just by logging in and can remove them with plat. Real $ isn't required unless you're impatient and/or won't farm plat.
			
				
	Edited November 18, 2015 by Equa1ity	
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Real $ isn't required unless you're impatient and/or won't farm plat.
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			If only my biggest problem would be extracting runes... I can't even rune the GA shoulders because I don't have enough plat, and now I also feel bad for taking it from someone else. Thanks for punishing me both in plat and spiritually for being "lucky" with a raid drop... Awesome design...	
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Considering the game gives them to you for free every 10 day's you log in starting at day 2 (2, 12, 22, 32, 42 etc) I don't consider it P2W, maybe W(wait)2W if you don't want to use any real money.
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If only my biggest problem would be extracting runes... I can't even rune the GA shoulders because I don't have enough plat, and now I also feel bad for taking it from someone else. Thanks for punishing me both in plat and spiritually for being "lucky" with a raid drop... Awesome design...
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So... in reference to GA gear, you should really only be putting the class sets on the BIS shoulders or legs. And then when you get your DS BIS piece, you remove and put them there. Yeah you can put your class pieces in a 116/120 DS piece (non-token piece), but it would behoove you to wait until you get your BIS piece to swap them out. Yeah you lose out on stats, but they aren't as important until you get up to the elemental pairs.
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Carbine has to have some way to pay the bills you know.
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Oh yes that crazy generous 5 (five).  Oh baby, I can... I can.  Um, what can I do with that?  Ooh, I can remove a fusion.  That's sarcasm by the way.  Five is not enough to even dye a costume. 
 
Five isn't going to do squat if you get a gear upgrade.  Before you start you need to blow plat or Service Tokens on slot adds and rerolls.  The all Service Token cost will run you up to 90 for a GA piece.  If you're not lucky enough to have anything left in your rune token reserve now you need to acquire five runes. 
 
Yes they fixed the fragment drop-rate but that only shifted the problem to major foci (and they were told this was going to be a problem).  Those will remain far too rare for a long time meaning the price on the CX will still pauper those of us that don't pull all-nighters running content.
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This part, not so much.
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You can rune GA shoulders. If nothing else, use superbs- but non-exceptionals should be within your grasp.
 
So don't feel bad about taking the shoulders from someone else :)
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These sets represent a 10-12% increase in damage (at least for my class). No way am I going to sit on them waiting for ilvl 100 shoulders if I managed to snag ilvl 96. I don't know what drops are like now, but I remember it took me several months to get token shoulders when we were progressing through GA.
 
And I'm not going to pall on ilvl116 shoulders if they drop now. They will be slotted very quickly :)
 
But I'm not complaining- I don't mind grinding the plat to extract them when an upgrade comes.
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I didn't mean it's the only way just one of them.
 
Subscription wouldn't be an option if it weren't also a way to pay the bills.
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Yeah, the main point is you don't NEED it, but it does help. As a progression group, that 10% would help, but wouldn't be necessary. The bigger issue is handling the mechanics, not worrying about pushing an extra 10% DPS. Greedy players are a big reasons raids struggle at times. People in my group, sometimes myself included, occasionally will get stuck on watching the meters and not the fight. Then our Raid Leader rips us a new one and we get back in line.
 
Yeah it's expensive to move runes around... but if you are okay with waiting and saving the plat, you can sacrifice that 10% or so and still be successful.
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These games are pay to win more than those games are pay to win, because pay to win really means this, which is different from what you said pay to win means if you really do a semantic analysis of the words pay and win.
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Ok, so someone gets a new piece of gear from their weekly raid and they want to rune said gear, let's take a quick look at their options:
 
1.  Pay platinum to extract the rune from their old piece of gear to place it in their new piece of gear.
 
2.  Use Omni-bits to buy Service Tokens to extract the rune from their old gear to place in their new gear.
 
3.  Leave the old rune in their old gear and place a new rune in their new gear because they don't want to spend the Plat or Omni-bits on rune extraction but, player does not have another copy of their BiS rune from their old gear so they;
 
  A.  place a Superb or Pure rune appropriate to their class into their shiny new gear as a Place-Holder until they can farm up enough mats to make a new rune equal to or better than their old rune, or;
 
  B.  continue to use the old gear with the rune they want until they can farm up enough mats to make the rune they want for their new gear.
 
4.  Buy Ncoin and use that to purchase Service Tokens and earn cosmic points for moving a rune from one piece of gear to another.
 
Sure, I guess I can see how people would think this system is pay to win, because after all, you could pay real money to move a rune from one piece of gear to another... but oh, wait, YOU DON'T HAVE A DEFINITION FOR THE WORD "WIN" IN THIS EQUATION.  Do you?  Nope.
 
Let's see here...
 
-  You didn't need to have that "super-duper ultra important" rune to be in the piece of gear that you won in order to win that piece of gear because it was in the gear you want to take the rune out of... so, no, I guess that's not it.
-  You're not fighting against other players, so beating those other players isn't even a part of the content that you're doing.  Nope, I guess that's not "winning" when it comes to moving the runes...
-  Um... hrm... yep, one of the rewards for high end raiding in this game is to get the BiS gear/runes, so you don't need that stuff to get through the raids because your raiding just to get that stuff...  So, nope, that can't be the definition of "winning" here.
 
What could it be?  What, oh what, could it be???
 
I GET IT!!!  Aha!  You want to be top DPS because masturbatory-ego-stroking is the definition of "WINNING"!
 
Lol, how could I be so stupid?  Yeah, you guys are right, having the option to pay real money so you can move runes from old equipment to new equipment is totally P2W... even though you can be patient and work towards one of the many options that are available for this type of endgame progression, but we'll just ignore that (shhh, just between you and me, ok?  ;) ).
			
				
	Edited November 19, 2015 by Srfrogg23	
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			Indeed, Pax. Simple and straightforward.	
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My definition of Pay To Win, the one the OP is based on: The ability to pay Real Life Money on direct gameplay upgrades. 
 
There's no question that service tokens for rune services meets that definition. Gearing up is a key part of the game. In fact, it's the basis for the entire genre (themepark MMO).  Runing, in turn, is the biggest part of gearing up as it's currently implemented.  Tying microtransactions to THAT, of all things, is really underhanded and IMO predatory business practice.  I won't be supporting it.
 
Also, for the record, to me the most important issue is actually this one:
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 ...this is not a one and done deal - you will encounter these costs in some form at every raid level and every new content drop. 
For PVPers, it also means that gear inflation and power creep are financially incentivized for Carbine, and game/class balance is not.
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You don't have to (Note: But you can) pay real world money to do it.  There's in-game options for it.  A person willing to open their wallet has no more of an advantage over the person willing to farm in-game currency in this regard.
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			You don't have to pay real world money to do it.  There's in-game options for it.  A person willing to open their wallet has no more of an advantage over the person willing to farm in-game currency in this regard.
			
				
	Edited November 19, 2015 by beattlebilly	
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My definition of Pay To Win, the one the OP is based on: The ability to pay Real Life Money on direct gameplay upgrades. 
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My definition of Pay To Win, the one the OP is based on: The ability to pay Real Life Money on direct gameplay upgrades. 
 
There's no question that service tokens for rune services meets that definition. Gearing up is a key part of the game. In fact, it's the basis for the entire genre (themepark MMO).  Runing, in turn, is the biggest part of gearing up as it's currently implemented.  Tying microtransactions to THAT, of all things, is really underhanded and IMO predatory business practice.  I won't be supporting it.
 
Also, for the record, to me the most important issue is actually this one:
With service tokens being tied to gear upgrades, Carbine has financial incentive to add more tiers of gear, more often.  Alternately, they have incentive to constantly "rebalance" runes, forcing people to re-slot them.  As the salad said, "This won't end well."
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It's not semantics. It's a very clear definition that people have been consistent with throughout this thread and many others. Are there items on the cash shop that someone can purchase and use to gain power for their character? If yes, then it is pay-to-win. It really can't get any simpler than that.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Oh, semantics!  I love shell games.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yeah, it's not until the CREDD exchange comes up that they get really inconsistent. Still not sure why.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It's not semantics. It's a very clear definition that people have been consistent with throughout this thread and many others. Are there items on the cash shop that someone can purchase and use to gain power for their character? If yes, then it is pay-to-win. It really can't get any simpler than that.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Good question.  I come from EVE, where PLEX = CREDD, more or less, and it's completely accepted there.  The key difference is how the two games measure "advancement" though.  In EVE, social currency is life - the in game currency (called ISK, because Iceland) is incidental compared to what you do with it, and who you do it to. Buying a PLEX and selling it in-game for ISK does not affect the core economy - money is moving from one player to another, nothing more. It's a market transaction no different then selling a battleship, or 6,000,000 tons of Tritanium.  It doesn't affect the core, social, sandbox gameplay at all.
 
In W*, gameplay is about gear and progression.  Plat can let you buy gear, so CREDD *does* translate into a gameplay advantage.  However, you can't really buy *that much* gear, and certainly not raid level, so the advantage is negligible.  That means there's a worthwhile trade between that minor P2W and the convenience of CREDD existing.
 
Regarding runes, whether it's minor or not is a matter of opinion.  IMO, it's not minor.  To many posters in this thread, it is.  And I can see their point, with all the alternatives and ways to mitigate it.  However, it's the LOCATION of the transaction that worries me.  Runes = Gearing = Core Gameplay.  That makes this NOT minor, because it could easily escalate into other areas of gameplay if it proves profitable. This is the problem with all F2P systems - what kind of game development is financially incentivized by it? That's why I'm witholding my cash and not buying into it.  I don't want to incentivize a bad system.  It's also why I made a post; I'm hoping Carbine will see it, and that other players will agree and spend their money wisely.
 
If Carbine freezes service token function where they are now and never applies them to any other gameplay related functions, I could learn to live with it.  Gold inflation will solve the cost problem eventually.  What REALLY worries me is that it won't stop there. 
 
So for those who want to keep supporting the game with money, great.  Please don't spend it on service tokens.  When Carbine looks at their bottom line, I don't want them to see tokens as their profit source, because that will result in some very bad development later on.
 
edit: Holy wall of text Batman!  Sorry.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
But you can't directly buy gameplay upgrades with cash. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Don't tell me you've already forgotten about the time I stirred all this shit up. The Raid Tier BoE items are still a thing, and so is the fact that $ = Plat. 
 
Same goes for everything that's BoE. As soon as $$$ = Plat, all power that can be bought with Plat can be directly bought with $$$.
 
The origin of the item being from the AH has no bearing on the equation of $$$ = Power.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Before plat could be used, I might have been inclined to say that it was damn near bordering on a shady, but now it's just one of those common end game progression things that MMOs do because you can use the money you find in the game.
 
Believe me, people were still buying service tokens before Carbine added the ability to use Plat to extract runes, and they still made the change because people called them out on it (and for good reason). 
 
Honestly, I think this little boycott of yours is about a week or two too late.
----
			
Hey look, it's me again, the guy who has an opinion on everything and tends to write novels to illustrate the point.
 
{| class="blockquote"
Don't tell me you've already forgotten about the time I stirred all this shit up. The Raid Tier BoE items are still a thing, and so is the fact that $ = Plat. 
 
Same goes for everything that's BoE. As soon as $$$ = Plat, all power that can be bought with Plat can be directly bought with $$$.
 
The origin of the item being from the AH has no bearing on the equation of $$$ = Power.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yes, but the problem is that they encourage people with subs to ALSO buy tokens, which is a model I don't like.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I GET IT!!!  Aha!  You want to be top DPS because masturbatory-ego-stroking is the definition of "WINNING"!
----
			easy fix ... remove BOE raiding items from the game... lets see you all howl now 	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
No, it's not about DPS, that's totally irrelevant. When you WIN on a roll for a new piece, you want to feel REWARDED, hey, you beat a boss, you made progression, you had fun, etc. But instead you feel PUNISHED, because you have to spend up to tens of plats on the new gear for it to become useful, so you LOSE a lot of plat. So you have to pay plat to win the stats of that piece. Now I'm not saying this is the definition of P2W, but I can easily use the words like this, because that's what they mean. You are literally paying (plat - which you can buy for real money) to win some stats. You didn't only play for it, you had to pay. You had to work, either for plat by grinding in the game or IRL for real money. If you don't pay, you won't get tose extra stats. How are you not paying to win here...? :)
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
gear is not the reward of killing a boss, the progression and the challenge of the kill is the reward ... there is no real punishment ... rng elemental pairs maybe but thats another side of progression and challenge so a reward i guess
 
Punishment should be poorly coded bosses that get their attacks out of order or refuse to follow the normal encounter mechanics ...
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Ok, can you do DS in ilvl 80 gear? Because it's fine then.
----
			
Setting aside the arguement as to what constitutes P2W for a moment, I think it's equally important for Carbine to listen to one of the other common themes in the comments here- that paying that much for gear enhancements (either in game or real money) isn't fun. It removes part of the enjoyment of raiding by eclipsing a positive experience with a decidedly negative one. That's just bad game design and if you want to make money with any game, people have to enjoy it and feel rewarded first. 
 
If the costs were much less, or if Runes were much less significant to the overall stat pool, I wonder if we would even be having this discussion. Because I think most people just want to be able to equip and use that new piece of gear that just dropped, without either having to wait to rune or to spend tons of currency to do so.
			
				
	Edited November 19, 2015 by Weakness	
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{| class="blockquote"
Gear is just a tool during progression. something you need to do enough dps/hps or tank enough hits before dying/create enough aggro. nothing more, nothing less.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I GET IT!!!  Aha!  You want to be top DPS because masturbatory-ego-stroking is the definition of "WINNING"!
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Gear is just a tool during progression. something you need to do enough dps/hps or tank enough hits before dying/create enough aggro. nothing more, nothing less.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
That was my whole point... That you have to rune your gear for progression, and you have to spend tens of plat to rune it properly. You are punished with plat farming for progressing and doing it properly. I don't have to farm gold in WoW for raiding mythic. I just raid mythic simple as that. I didn't sign up for boring goldfarm, I signed up for raiding.
----
			I could go for 3P per slot.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
No, it's not about DPS, that's totally irrelevant. When you WIN on a roll for a new piece, you want to feel REWARDED, hey, you beat a boss, you made progression, you had fun, etc. But instead you feel PUNISHED, because you have to spend up to tens of plats on the new gear for it to become useful, so you LOSE a lot of plat. So you have to pay plat to win the stats of that piece. Now I'm not saying this is the definition of P2W, but I can easily use the words like this, because that's what they mean. You are literally paying (plat - which you can buy for real money) to win some stats. You didn't only play for it, you had to pay. You had to work, either for plat by grinding in the game or IRL for real money. If you don't pay, you won't get tose extra stats. How are you not paying to win here...? :)
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Wrong.
 
The argument over definitions here is silly. Whether people agree on the definition of P2W, the issue here isn't ego stroking. It's whether or not the game is encouraging people to spend real money in order to buy power.
 
People don't flip out over CREDD because it takes a *lot* of CREDD to get a BoE piece, and so the money->power isn't that much of an issue. Most people aren't feeling a strong drive to use real world money to buy powerful items. But with the rune extraction, which is very powerful and yes, allows you to get power much quicker, then there's a lot more of an incentive to feel like the game is pushing you to spend real life money to get power.
 
And higher DPS isn't ego stroking. Higher DPS = faster clears, more room for mistakes, and easier progression.
 
Now personally, with the plat option, I don't feel that the game is really encouraging people to buy power like it was. It's MUCH better now (though, with the flask nerf, 5 plat extraction is now more expensive than it was), but I understand the struggle. It's still pretty close. Because extracting runes does allow quicker access to power, and being able to speed that up through real life money is the ability to buy power quicker.
 
Now, it's not a wall because everyone can do it (now), but it's still an uncomfortable area when in game power, and therefor progression, is linked to your wallet.
 
I'm absolutely committed to not spending money above my sub, and I've been able to do that with relative ease before the flask nerf. I'm hopeful this will continue, but I guess I'll have to see how the economy reacts and how big a hit it is.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Actually, when someone points at something and screams "Pay to Win!", the ONLY thing that matters is the definition.
 
The only time people don't want to nail down a definition to something is when they think they'll lose the argument. 
 
This is not pay to win.  It's pay for convenience.  It's pay to hold on to your Plat.  It's pay to keep your Omni-bits.  It's pay to move something that you already had from one place to another without having to use any other ingame currency to do so.
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{| class="blockquote"
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
you can but you will not do well
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Ok, can you do DS in ilvl 80 gear? Because it's fine then.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
IDC at all what you term this. That's the important point.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The argument over definitions here is silly. Whether people agree on the definition of P2W, the issue here isn't ego stroking. It's whether or not the game is encouraging people to spend real money in order to buy power.
 
People don't flip out over CREDD because it takes a *lot* of CREDD to get a BoE piece, and so the money->power isn't that much of an issue. Most people aren't feeling a strong drive to use real world money to buy powerful items. But with the rune extraction, which is very powerful and yes, allows you to get power much quicker, then there's a lot more of an incentive to feel like the game is pushing you to spend real life money to get power.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I call it "the new normal."
 
Subscriptions failed. With the F2P transition, those of us who liked subs have been kicked to the curb, as I've pointed out time and again.
 
You (and Jeff and others) want to pretend like your subscriptions should entitle you to everything "the way it used to be" when subbing was the only way to access the game.
 
Those days are over, my friends. Signature players (myself included) are not the chosen market. Please tell me that you've noticed that a new "limited time cash shop item" has been added pretty much every week since F2P and that (as I've pointed out) cash shop items are now considered part of the "rewards" one can achieve during limited time events like Shade's Eve.
 
Your individual "immersion" and your individual reluctance to switch the model the studio is pointing you toward with bright flashing lights, well, that's on y'all at this point. The game has moved on. You guys are the one's trying your damnedest to hang onto the lost cause of original WildStar.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I call it a sleazy predatory sales practice.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
well said :(
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Before plat could be used, I might have been inclined to say that it was damn near bordering on a shady, but now it's just one of those common end game progression things that MMOs do because you can use the money you find in the game.
 
Believe me, people were still buying service tokens before Carbine added the ability to use Plat to extract runes, and they still made the change because people called them out on it (and for good reason). 
 
Honestly, I think this little boycott of yours is about a week or two too late.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The plat cost is absurd and is basically Carbine thumbing their noses at the players. "Oh, you said you wanted a plat option. Well here it is! Either you spend ALL of your plat on extracting your rune, or you go to the cash shop. What? It's technically an option!" It may as well not even be there.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Again, another huge flashing light, telling you to cancel your subscription and spend that money on Service Tokens.
----
			
And that's on you and hampering your enjoyment of the game.
 
You get the game FOR FREE now, Nau. Because the game is free, your subscription is basically wasted money, since you're not getting to access anything that the Freebots can't access.
 
With me so far? Okay.
 
You want to keep thinking in the old paradigm that your $15/month entitles you to all the perks. That's not true any longer. What gets you perks today are Service Tokens. By going to a Service Token-based "subscription" you now have access to all the things that Freebots have access to PLUS all the benefits of convenience that come from Service Tokens.
 
I can see why you think the way you do. Please believe me. I totally understand and sympathize, but at this point, you are fighting a battle that we lost a year ago when Sabotage destroyed the community in every meaningful way.
 
EDIT: Basically, by going to All Service Tokens, you now have ALL the benefits the studio wants you to have. Game access, content access *and* a better QoL because you have tokens.
			
				
	Edited November 19, 2015 by Tex Arcana	
----
			Honestly the longer I've been playing under f2p the more I've considered a switch my sub off personally. The benefits for being a sub seem "okay" for someone trying to get up and running, but not enough to make me go "oh hell yeah! sub me up". Think for me once this round of alts hit 50 I'll just end up canceling my sub and then off  and on ill spend money on cash shop stuff that i feel is worth it like costumes. 	
----
			Nope, not gonna convince me. I don't buy power from the cash shop. :P That's it.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I'm not pretending. Either it works or it doesn't. And if it doesn't, I'm out. But as I've said, actually the sub has been fine for me. I actually have plenty of service tokens to do what I need just from playing the game.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Do I properly understand you to be making the argument that the problem here is that the service tokens are cheaper than CREDD so the service tokens are a bigger problem? Because they're cheap?  :blink:
----
			I haven't renewed my sub at all - it's just eating through bonus time accrued at the moment. I probably will discontinue it once that all is done, but I won't be replacing it with purchasing service tokens - just like I won't be purchasing single character-use mounts and pets, either.	
----
			
I'm not trying to convince you of anything, dear heart. I am just telling you the truth of the situation.
 
You can resist it, get upset and eventually get discouraged to the point of walking away forever - or you adjust and adapt to the new paradigm. The studio will happily take your wasted signature plan money, as you get more and more tired of dealing with the bullcrap that is solved by dropping the sub and buying tokens.
 
That's all I'm saying. Do what makes you happy - but I can tell it's NOT making you happy, so I am offering the alternative.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You (and Jeff and others) want to pretend like your subscriptions should entitle you to everything "the way it used to be" when subbing was the only way to access the game.
----
			
I've canceled my sub as well, since there's absolutely 0 benefit to having it.
Even the daily login rewards are a joke.
5 Elden Gems? 5 Omni bits ?  200 tokens? 
Not even worth the effort to click the button.
 
My sub status lasts till January 16th, after that it's simply living off the accumulated perks.	
----
			
So Tex, I'm actually going to push back on your thought that they intend to make the sub non-viable so everyone uses tokens. If this were really their intention, I don't think they would have offered the removal-for-plat option for runes. That benefited subs more than anyone else.
 
And it's not true that I would be better off going with tokens. Maybe under your value system I would be, but definitely not under mine.
 
Right now, service tokens are an in-game resource that I earn for playing. This makes me happy. I enjoy getting them. That would be completely gone if I ever purchased any of them with real life money.
 
But I do agree, they should add a little more value to the sub so more people would choose it.
			
				
	Edited November 19, 2015 by SlyJeff	
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{| class="blockquote"
I've canceled my sub as well, since there's absolutely 0 benefit to having it.
Even the daily login rewards are a joke.
5 Elden Gems? 5 Omni bits ?  200 tokens? 
Not even worth the effort to click the button.
 
My sub status lasts till January 16th, after that it's simply living off the accumulated perks.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
So Tex, I'm actually going to push back on your thought that they intend to make the sub non-viable so everyone uses tokens. If this were really their intention, I don't think they would have offered the removal-for-plat option for runes. That benefited subs more than anyone else.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You don't have to(NOTE: But you can) pay real world money to do it.  There's in-game options for it.  A person willing to open their wallet has no more of an advantage over the person willing to farm in-game currency in this regard.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I call it "the new normal."
----
			PAY FOR CONVENIENCE!	
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The moral of the story is that the games runes end game where even grinder than they are now, when the game was PAY TO PLAY. All they did was make the system SLIGHTLY EASIER. Does it save you time grinding? Sure... the folks spending real money work for a livinf, they spent hours at their job to make the money to spend in a game to save time playing to game to get the same result. I take care of a handicapped person for a living, I would rather spam bgs for an hour to grind the plat to reroll a piece than clean human feces... if someone wants to spend more of their money they earned working more than you to gain back some of the time you gain by not working as much then who cares? It takes very little time to gear a toon to pvp... if someone wants to blow 20$ a pop on credd to get their amps/abilities it'll take hundreds of dollars, and it's relatively easy to do in game... if you have raid gear of any kind you're looking at 2 tiers that will be the only gear you use for the next 6 months or so? Is that a big investment for you? How long has datascape been out, and how long have people been clearing it? Stats change for balance, not some crazy new world order get you to burn your plat/money to rerun
 
The devs aren't trying to make you NOT have fun... there are setbacks to gear to milk end game content... they try to keep raiders busy during the week instead of "there's nothing to do, I just log on raid nights then play league the rest of the week"
 
Are you f2p new comers should realize that this grind existed BEFORE f2p, did you think it was some p2w game design back then?
 
If it gets to the point where there is no question of time = value of cash shop stuff then you can complain... as it stands few things are worth it in the cash shop... 20$ for cred isn't worth it, you can grind plat easier in game... ones I think are worth it? Flasks of r&r and advencement pots... if I level 300% faster for 10 hours it's worth an hour or two of pay to save me 20 hours of playing. But it's just a quicker way to reach the same power level(cap) so it's not game breaking	
----
			
I think it's wise to cater to both a subscription and F2P culture. Some/quite a few of those subs will STILL pay cash to buy cosmetics and such.
 
IMHO, they need to also focus on GUARANTEED income every month and not bank on the chance that people will overspend on the cash shop. There needs to be a happy median. RL Example... would you rather have a straight commission job with a HUGE commission potential, or be a little more conservative and take a guaranteed base salary with a lower commission potential, but the pay is more consistent?
 
I'm not talking about any one aspect of F2P in this post. 	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The devs aren't trying to make you NOT have fun... there are setbacks to gear to milk end game content... they try to keep raiders busy during the week instead of "there's nothing to do, I if I level 300% faster for 10 hours it's worth an hour or two of pay to save me 20 hours of playing. But it's just a quicker way to reach the same power level(cap) so it's not game breaking
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
They nerfed the flasks btw :P
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Seven pages for this? Seriously, how many of you guys complaining about this get this uptight when your bank charges you an ATM fee? I ask, because I bet a lot of you don't...it's very much the same thing.
 
There are at least 2 perfectly viable options you can use to avoid having to pay for service tokens with real money, and once the runes are set it's an expense you will probably never have to deal with again. FFS, stop bitching about it.
			
				
	Edited November 19, 2015 by Pygar Jetrunner	
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{| class="blockquote"
Seven pages for this? Seriously, how many of you guys complaining about this get this uptight when your bank charges you an ATM fee? I ask, because I bet a lot of you don't...it's very much the same thing.
 
There are at least 2 perfectly viable options you can use to avoid having to pay for service tokens with real money, and once the runes are set it's an expense you will probably never have to deal with again. FFS, stop bitching about it.
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{| class="blockquote"
Seven pages for this? Seriously, how many of you guys complaining about this get this uptight when your bank charges you an ATM fee? I ask, because I bet a lot of you don't...it's very much the same thing.
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{| class="blockquote"
Banks, security, fraud and theft protection... having tellers, Financing, debit cards, mobile and online banking should be free.
 
Healthcare should be free
 
Education should be free
 
Games should be free
 
Everything should be free so I don't have to work for them, are these kids growing up thinking 90% of the world was born wanting to provide everything as a charity to them?
 
Anybody who plays this game for free gave nothing to the developers who spent their time and energy and no small amount to make this game and maintain it, well I got news for you if you don't like service tokens don't buy them, but don't complain when they are taking longer than you'd like to come out with new content and fixes for old content, unless you want to volunteer to pay their salaries
----
			I joined just after F2P, but subbed after the second day- I've played enough other F2P games to know those % bonuses to XP and Gold go a long way....and 15-20 bucks is like one night's worth of fun (or maybe not even) if I go downtown or catch a movie or something. (Service tokens cost even less money, not even enough to buy a beer- I don't know how this "issue" is causing people such grief.) 	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Do I properly understand you to be making the argument that the problem here is that the service tokens are cheaper than CREDD so the service tokens are a bigger problem? Because they're cheap?  :blink:
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Banks, security, fraud and theft protection... having tellers, Financing, debit cards, mobile and online banking should be free.
 
Healthcare should be free
 
Education should be free
 
Games should be free
 
Everything should be free so I don't have to work for them, are these kids growing up thinking 90% of the world was born wanting to provide everything as a charity to them?
 
Anybody who plays this game for free gave nothing to the developers who spent their time and energy and no small amount to make this game and maintain it, well I got news for you if you don't like service tokens don't buy them, but don't complain when they are taking longer than you'd like to come out with new content and fixes for old content, unless you want to volunteer to pay their salaries
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I joined just after F2P, but subbed after the second day- I've played enough other F2P games to know those % bonuses to XP and Gold go a long way....and 15-20 bucks is like one night's worth of fun (or maybe not even) if I go downtown or catch a movie or something. (Service tokens cost even less money, not even enough to buy a beer- I don't know how this "issue" is causing people such grief.)
 
----
			
I spent over 100p on runes in one day because of this system.. The service token system is outrageous who would pay 45 tokens for a rune that costs 5-10p and you can remove it for 7p. I see what they did there you are basically paying to get your rune back that you already payed for so you don't have to buy another one (which you could probably do for the same price) but the principle is there and it works for now... If you don't have 100p to spend you probably won't be getting your DS gear runed out any time soon. (30 tokens is a grip of omni bits and basically you would be spending a GRIP of real cash to save a rune worth about 5-10p possibly 5-10$ each rune and then some when it comes down to choose your perfect rune slots... which I do not like at all I enjoyed the old system that put a gap inbetween players like diablo 3 where you find the same item with different stats each time (different rune slots) but this time around runes are SUCH a big deal for stats and the gear is basically garbage and just an AP value with a TINY value added to that. The runes just blow the stat comparison away even compared to the rune sets. Choosing rune slots and rerolling them until they are perfect takes a lot out of the game.. BUT seeing how runes are so expensive I don't even cover up my gear with upgrades anymore because I don't have the plat I won't cover up my gear until I get BIS.... and that is sad CRB that is pay to win.)
 
Unless you decide to use +1 runes then you'll be plentiful and without certain set bonuses which honestly isn't that big of an increase overall.
 
I see how the system is ALL ABOUT THE BENJAMINS and I want carbine to make money but wasn't expecting them to try and make money off the rune system.
			
				
	Edited November 19, 2015 by Chronic7	
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I think you're misunderstanding Sly's point, Yas.
 
The key is that they priced Service Tokens so low while simultaneously making rune extraction (and other things) cost painful amounts of plat. That is what he means by it drives more people toward Service Tokens. When it was just CREDD, it was very easy to brush off spending money on gear because who the heck would drop $100+ for a single raid BoE? Not to mention everything else was pretty affordable. But now the pay wall for Service Tokens is very low, while the pay wall in game is very high, which is absolutely intentional to make people feel the need to spend real money instead of their in game money.
			
				
	Edited November 19, 2015 by Naunet	
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{| class="blockquote"
I have to quote this for OFF Topic reasons sorry
 
My country:
 
Free healthcare? CHECK!
 
Free education? CHECK!
 
I win? CHECK CHECK CHECK!
 
Not everywhere is like 'murica so I suggest refraining from comparing your countries infrastructure to a global discussion ^^
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"It's a weird feeling, to be sure. I always subscribe to any "free" game I play because the perks in every other instance are worth it. Shame that the game I love most, just isn't."
 
Oddly enough... this part boggles me... they usually pidgeon hole you into needing it anyways, but this game is kind of "ehh, it's alright if you play alot, but it's cool man, you don't need to sub"
 
I sub anyways because I support games I 0lay so they get better.
 
 
I've spent way more money in smite than I have in this game and I bought the beta pack even though I unlocked the gods I played... then they expanded beta to just give you every god indefinately... I've easily dropped 800$ in smite buying skins... this game made me scratch my head on how I could even spend money in the shop... not many dyes and not much for costume pieces for my taste... mounts I never use really so it's w/e... and I had a hard time buying anything to unlock that sick osun house...
 
I could technically have just hordes plat from credd or something but no reason... I only pvp so gearing is easy and I make more than enough $$ to rune... plus credd still has a 24 hour limit of 1, so it would take me a billion years to unlock something only I get to see lmao	
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{| class="blockquote"
I think you're misunderstanding Sly's point, Yas.
 
The key is that they priced Service Tokens so low while simultaneously making rune extraction (and other things) cost painful amounts of plat. That is what he means by it drives more people toward Service Tokens. When it was just CREDD, it was very easy to brush off spending money on gear because who the heck would drop $100+ for a single raid BoE? But now the pay wall for Service Tokens is very low, while the pay wall in game is very high, which is absolutely intentional to make people feel the need to spend real money instead of their in game money.
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{| class="blockquote"
Because they don't have anyone to break up with them, so this is the first thing they found to cry about. Life seems to empty without struggle
 
 
R.i.p. entitled feeld
 
Yeah f2p spoiled players... I've said it before and I'll say I again, I have (and will continue) to hope games I like remain p2p because it keeps these minecon pimple farms from crying that mommy and daddy don't let them borrow the credit card
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. If you don't have 100p to spend you probably won't be getting your DS gear runed out any time soon. (30 tokens is a grip of omni bits and basically you would be spending a GRIP of real cash to save a rune worth about 5-10p possibly 5-10$ each rune and then some when it comes down to choose your perfect rune slots... 
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			If you were playing the game long before FreePlay then what is the big deal? As originally stated sometimes I spent almost 40 flat on a shadow burst rune and there was no system to take them out at all, was the game designed to rip you off then? The grind was way worse considering not only did you not have a way of getting runes out, but they were randomly dropped so expensive as hell, and the SLOTS were rng, you could get an extra slot on a rare chance, and runes were random and no rerolling, which meant gear with 3+ fire or fusion slots was infinitely better, so you think it's bad having to spend time grinding when you get a new piece of gear, imagine getting raid gear every week that gets thrown away because it doesn't have good elements 4 slots... Please cry more	
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but kindly stop acting like reasonable prices in the cash shop are a problem.
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