146723-wildstar-not-for-this-average-player-page-10

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== Content ==
			I would love more dungeons, expeditions, and adventures. The vast majority of my non-rp/housing game time is spent playing with either just my husband or my husband and a mutual friend of ours, so challenging small-group content is always welcome. Even though that doesn't fit into Yasfan's narrative of evil raiders.	
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I think Jeff makes some really good suggestions. I think most people in this thread could agree with those, the only issue I would have is that they are very raid-centric, i'd be more inclined to leave the existing raids alone and just come up with more dungeons, expeditions, adventures and other small group content which get progressively more difficult and provide gear/rewards that can improve a players gear iLevel (how they handle that again is not really my concern, that is a job for the developers). Oh and new raids for the raiders is a good idea too. We can all co-exist and we can all have rewarding and meaningful progression.
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Even though that doesn't fit into Yasfan's narrative of evil raiders.
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			I haven't seen a single person in this thread oppose the addition of new veteran shiphands, adventures, or dungeons. The only thing they've been opposed to is the WoW-iteration of LFR.	
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I haven't seen a single person in this thread oppose the addition of new veteran shiphands, adventures, or dungeons. The only thing they've been opposed to is the WoW-iteration of LFR.
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I don't know the general difficulty on raids now. However if both raids are really hard, and considering a new raid will come next year. I would at least nerf the first bosses of each of the raids now so that at least a part of the raid is puggable, so that people can pug and get an item or two. And then, if they want to progress, they need to do it the organized way. I don't think it's a bad thing if players know that can join in and kill 2-3 bosses/week. 
Just having a little is something to do, and it doesn't have to be "make it all puggable".
In Wotlk, before me and my friends joined a raiding guild we 4-manned first ulduar boss on 10-man and 25-man. It gave us something to do every week, and a chance on some gear piece. Good enough, and since we wanted to raid later, we decided to join a raiding guild in order to get it done. 	
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What?
 
Make new content between vet dungeons now and GA, and you end up making vet dungeons even more "worthless" than they are today. You barely need to touch dungeons nowadays to have more than enough gear to enter GA. Hit them once for attunement and you're pretty much good. So no, I'm not gonna support risking making an even larger chunk of content go the way of vet adventures (which no one queues for at all anymore).
 
So "more rewarding" cannot mean a step up in ilvl without risking such a thing. That leaves... cosmetics, which I'm totally cool with and I imagine others would be as well.
 
I'm not sure where you're getting that raiders are opposing more challenging small group content. That's silly. I want that. Tons of people want that.	
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			I would love more dungeons and adventures, along with incentives to reward doing them.	
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			I don't think I would classify the first floor of GA as "really hard". Definitely pug-able as they are today. The first two bosses in the second floor aren't even "really hard". Phagemaw is mostly just a healing check, though I guess Prototypes could be hard for people who don't handle a lot of mechanics well (though kill adds, run away from the person you're chained, run to the color/shape you have over your head if you're in the color room, and dodge telegraphs is not that big of a thing xD).
			
				
	Edited December 20, 2015 by Naunet	
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Yasfan, they haven't committed to anything. I'm not defending them here. I would love to hear theh have some plans in place to increase accessibility.
 
I am also concerned about how they will be able to add non raid content that will be meaningful and not trivialized by raid gear.
 
I'm concerned that the current dungeons are not tiered from a gear level- it seems like a strange decision to make them lack gear progression. Once you get a piece of gear in one, you won't be looking for upgrades in tbe next one.
 
There's a lot I don't like about the way things currently are, and I'm very interested in what their plans are. I'd always assumed they were going to start adding dungeons that would give gear on par with GA (and in fact, they used to do this before F2P) so that eventually GA would be phased out as a progression instance, but the current set up doesn't really support that. So I dunno what they are doing.
 
I think power creep is something that concerns a lot of raiders who are above ilvl and can blow up just about any of the dungeons. I mean, it's fun to do that, but it also means our only challenging content comes for our scheduled raids. This is a problem for everyone, not just non-raiders.
			
				
	Edited December 20, 2015 by SlyJeff	
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			Why did you quote SlyJeff there to include him in the "Enjoy the deathspiral of your favorite game, guys.  You've worked really hard to get it, so congratulations.  You've earned it."  Seems to me, SlyJeff's comments are hoping to do the exact opposite of the "deathspiral".	
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What?
 
Make new content between vet dungeons now and GA, and you end up making vet dungeons even more "worthless" than they are today. You barely need to touch dungeons nowadays to have more than enough gear to enter GA. Hit them once for attunement and you're pretty much good. So no, I'm not gonna support risking making an even larger chunk of content go the way of vet adventures (which no one queues for at all anymore).
 
So "more rewarding" cannot mean a step up in ilvl without risking such a thing. That leaves... cosmetics, which I'm totally cool with and I imagine others would be as well.
 
I'm not sure where you're getting that raiders are opposing more challenging small group content. That's silly. I want that. Tons of people want that.
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Yeah, OK. I'm out.
 
Enjoy the deathspiral of your favorite game, guys. You've worked really hard to get it, so congratulations. You've earned it.
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Nice to see you doing exactly what I said many in the raiding community in fact do. Oppose more challenging and more rewarding non-raid content because of the linear progression. I guess they do it right here in this thread after all.
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If there's solo content that I think I've seen done exceptionally well, it was the warlock green fire quest that Blizz put in during MoP.
 
That was challenging as hell and required very precise and skillful use of your abilities. They were, however, able to tailor it specifically to warlocks since no one else could do it, so I don't know how feasible that is. However, I think having solo progression (up to a point, or put some really neat cosmetic things in there) for those who wanna just do something quick but difficult alongside the various group ways to go about things would be really nifty. Like Jeff I do expect, eventually, the catch-up dungeons to come around though. Something to adequately gear someone for DS without having to commit to GA.
 
I think the problems with pre-raid content really is the reward. I like that expeditions are little snippets, but the rewards out of them are mostly aimed at the housing folks or those looking to farm some quick cash. The gadgets are largely negligible.
 
Adventures are pretty fun, but it feels odd and maybe not quite as compelling content as I'd like it to be. Unlike dungeons, it just hasn't been as fun. I'm not sure if I'm alone in that feeling, but that's aside from rewards - I don't do dungeons for rewards anymore, I do them for fun! I have a feeling that it might be that adventures feel severely slowed down compared to dungeons. There's a ton of travel time in adventures. I actually think I really enjoyed Riot in the Void for this one - you got to places fast, turn a few corners and you're there, cross a courtyard and done. Having to get to the action winds down the excitement, and would be in line with why Malgrave tends to be one of the most disliked adventures, beyond the difficulty associated with it. That said, the rewards are really lackluster, and this is one of the primary problems of adventures. Here's a happy medium that might be appreciated - throw rune mats as regular rewards into adventures. Make it THE avenue for grinding that out. Maybe add tokens that allow you to reroll elemental slots for cheaper/free! It DOES NOT HAVE to be gear in order for it to be rewarding, you just have to think outside the box!
 
Dungeon gearing? At this point I would kind of like to see its ilvl raised. There are so many crafting players at max that it feels almost irrelephant to do them for gearing purposes. You get a guildee or tip someone to craft for you and boom, access to gear that is 8 ilvls better, moreso if you grab the GA/DS crafted. World bosses reward better, and they're done fairly regularly especially on contract day. I'm not sure what the right answer to this problem is - I guess maybe it really is time to start phasing out GA to an extent. Why not make dungeon gear ilvl 90-92 flat out? Complex crafted gear can be the 'if you wanna do dungeons easier' crafted gear, maybe. Or use it for something alternative. You could have Complex imbued with 'do more damage in shiphands/adventures' specials. Something that specifies it for certain content?
 
I think Wildstar's primary reward problem is that the linear progression of gear is so long that shortcuts had to be offered, and those shortcuts basically made entire portions of content entirely negligible.	
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We can all get along, I actually believe that. We just all have different play styles and goals.
 
I have re-rolled many times, still haven't hit 50 (just dinged 40 a day or two ago), but there are definitely elements to this game that touch alot of varied play styles from casual to hardcore to hardcore casual.
 
That said, non-raiders need carrots to chase to and in a game like this with gear progression, gear is usually the carrot. I don't think it is unreasonable to ramp up say, dungeon difficulty and then limit a non-raider to only cosmetic or decor rewards if you are going to make them work harder for it. If you amp up the dungeon difficulty then it should not be an issue to amp up the iLevel progression. Note that I would not expect the increase to be on or near the level of raid tiers, but it should be a way to improve.
 
And face it, almost 2 yrs in, alot of people have probably already ran the dungeons and other small group content ad nauseum and have geared up their mains as best as they can possibly an alt or two, so increasing the iLevel of the future new content rewards shouldn't be an issue (my opinion only and not meant to ruffle feathers lol)	
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			This long pointless discussion is not for this average forum reader.	
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Hey, I do think everyone SHOULD play this game how they want to, I really agree.
 
But to say that this game isn't the way you want it it's because it is not intended to be the way you want it.
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I will respectfully decline your gracious invitation for me to shut up and leave the game. How very kind of you to suggest it. 
 
I am not asking you to put up with changes to your content on my behalf.
I am not asking you to come do content with me or for me.
I am not asking you to do anything any differently than you are currently doing them.
 
I am asking you to leave me the hell alone and let me play the game the way I want to play it, not the way you want me to play it.
 
I shouldn't have to leave the game to not play with you, and I'm not going to.
 
If you can't tolerate that, that's very definitely not my problem. It's yours. 
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I would be inclined to appreciate at least the honesty of this post if you hadn't started it with this:
 
Guess what: that opener applies to you too. Pay for your own raid.
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I would love more dungeons and adventures, along with incentives to reward doing them.
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Literally 2 lines later you contradict yourself. Come on man.
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Literally 2 lines later you contradict yourself. Come on man.
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Kinda hard to screw up steak, unless you like jerky ;)
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Hey, I do think everyone SHOULD play this game how they want to, I really agree.
 
What I would like is to have you STOP complaining that a game that was intended to be hardcore is too hard!  It's like you ordered a steak and you're complaining it's not fish!
 
I'm not saying all your points are invalid, in fact, may are correct.  But to say that this game isn't the way you want it it's because it is not intended to be the way you want it.
 
I personally think you'd be much much happier playing something else.  I don't care if we play together or not, in all honesty.  For your happiness, please, play a more casual mmo instead of complaining about this one.
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Kinda hard to screw up steak, unless you like jerky ;)
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			Oh I was just commenting on steak, analogies aside....too tired for those tonight.	
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Ya know, you keep referring to the steak as the *hardcore* nature of this game, so I will give you an analogy of my own.
 
It appears the packed restaurant patrons (Wildstar) have mostly all returned that *steak* and gone down the street for a *fish fry*.
 
Time to cut the design losses after 2 attempts. Steam will be the smallest and last chance at establishing a sustainable player base, and those players are probably going to be about as casual as PC gaming comes.
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So, I'll disagree with you a little ChemBoy; I think there's plenty of evidence they didn't intent this game to be hardcore only, though a lot of their decisions to try and provide content for casuals (outside of housing) fell flat.
 
I do think they want/need to serve both types of customers. I think that easier version of existing raids is not the best way to do that.	
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Man, there has been so many different views in this thread.  The thing that stands out is people want so many things to this game to even change how this game is progression wise.  Some wanting to change it to have this game not be linear progression but something else which would completly change this game and how it runs.  To changing how raids are and how to obtain loot.
 
Now having some form of small group content that is more challenging than the currently challenging vet dungeons (I've seen vet dungeons are to hard too) really makes me go "huh?".  I can understand having this but it comes down to the rewards and would they be on par with raid gear?  Or for doing harder expeditions and wanting to be able to obtain vet dungeon level gear (I'm going to say no on the raid level gear for expeditions).  BTW, I really haven't seen raiders asking for "raid" challenge of solo or small group content but by non raiders which makes no sense to me because you would need raid gear to do this content.  So it is coming down to being able to progress past vet dungeons and "level up" your character and not having to purchase BOE gear from the AH.  That's fine for me honest, but there's a reason disband when Protogames pops up.  Than it comes down to raids.
 
The two difficulty of raids, what would be the rewards for the lesser challenging GA?  Currently GA iLvl is 96-100, so would the rewards be 86-90?  That is vet dungeon level rewards and World Bosses so why not do those (reason why instanced World Bosses has been asked for)?  Also, I would personally be pissed if they gave out the costume "skins" for the lesser challenge raid.  Also, GA isn't hard anymore with the way of power creep, it just needs just takes time to understand the encounters.  So it comes down to accessability.  They have plans to fix raid accessability, even posted in this thread that they are looking at raid lockouts and a better queue system.  
 
For future raids, I have no problem with 2 difficulties if they do it right.  You have to make it so vet dungeons and past content don't become obsolete.    But the current content, is it just wanting to see the raids?  If so, than well, have to put in the time to see them.  So people want to go into raids, but they don't want to raid.  WTH????
 
The big reason raiders don't want a "LFR" of content is the type of player it brings.  They get to max level, hope in LFR, run the super easy content, than quit.  This doesn't make players better.  Just brings a horrible playstyle that doesn't fit with what Wildstar is.  Sorry if that is your playstyle, but really, that's what you want to do?  The LFR for WoW are mindnumbing stupidly easy that it's basically a solo player fight with people around you.  A zergfest, what World Bosses currently are, and reason people want them changed.      
 
Casual gamers bring in alot of money to a game.  The reason Carbine has put forth alot of their development towards this and not raids.  Casuals get a negative remarks towards them because in order to see the content, people have to spend time to play and don't want to spend the time it would take to see it so the content gets nerfed.  Are there casual players that are good, of course.  Are there non-casual players that are bad, of course.  But you see less bad non-casual vs casual because they practice and put the time in to learn the game/encounters.  Alot of people these day's have the mentality of give it to me now, and don't want to work for it.  Why ezmode mobile games are making so much money.  They are easy and give it to me now.  Do you really want Wildstar to be like this?  SO easy a 5 year old can go in and do it?  
 
I know my post is all over the place, but just bringing up points i've seen and my views.  Are views different of course.  Not everyone is the same.  But to generate a game that handles everyones views is impossible.  Build on what is there, like making World Bosses instanced and have a raid finder for those and GA.  I would say make harder expeditions, but the game wants you to play with people.  Not do stuff solo.  Maybe if they made it so expeditions, if ran with more people, got harder, and because of this, the loot level was raised be ok.  
 
*For those wanting to take out the attunement, my personnel opinion on that, get over it.  It's a gate mechanic to make sure you understand the basic of how to play with people.  If you cant do the content for that, not because people aren't running the instances, but because your play level is not good enough to complete the instance, why are you even trying to step into GA?  Like seriously, do you expect to go oh, look, I'm level 50, I can do GA now in my quest greens!
			
				
	Edited December 21, 2015 by Orrestes	
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Ya know, you keep referring to the steak as the *hardcore* nature of this game, so I will give you an analogy of my own.
 
It appears the packed restaurant patrons (Wildstar) have mostly all returned that *steak* and gone down the street for a *fish fry*.
 
Time to cut the design losses after 2 attempts. Steam will be the smallest and last chance at establishing a sustainable player base, and those players are probably going to be about as casual as PC gaming comes.
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Yeah, OK. I'm out.
 
 
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Man, there has been so many different views in this thread.  The thing that stands out is people want so many things to this game to even change how this game is progression wise.  Some wanting to change it to have this game not be linear progression but something else which would completly change this game and how it runs.  To changing how raids are and how to obtain loot.
 
Now having some form of small group content that is more challenging than the currently challenging vet dungeons (I've seen vet dungeons are to hard too) really makes me go "huh?".  I can understand having this but it comes down to the rewards and would they be on par with raid gear?  Or for doing harder expeditions and wanting to be able to obtain vet dungeon level gear (I'm going to say no on the raid level gear for expeditions).  BTW, I really haven't seen raiders asking for "raid" challenge of solo or small group content but by non raiders which makes no sense to me because you would need raid gear to do this content.  So it is coming down to being able to progress past vet dungeons and "level up" your character and not having to purchase BOE gear from the AH.  That's fine for me honest, but there's a reason disband when Protogames pops up.  Than it comes down to raids.
 
The two difficulty of raids, what would be the rewards for the lesser challenging GA?  Currently GA iLvl is 96-100, so would the rewards be 86-90?  That is vet dungeon level rewards and World Bosses so why not do those (reason why instanced World Bosses has been asked for)?  Also, I would personally be pissed if they gave out the costume "skins" for the lesser challenge raid.  Also, GA isn't hard anymore with the way of power creep, it just needs just takes time to understand the encounters.  So it comes down to accessability.  They have plans to fix raid accessability, even posted in this thread that they are looking at raid lockouts and a better queue system.  
 
For future raids, I have no problem with 2 difficulties if they do it right.  You have to make it so vet dungeons and past content don't become obsolete.    But the current content, is it just wanting to see the raids?  If so, than well, have to put in the time to see them.  So people want to go into raids, but they don't want to raid.  WTH????
 
The big reason raiders don't want a "LFR" of content is the type of player it brings.  They get to max level, hope in LFR, run the super easy content, than quit.  This doesn't make players better.  Just brings a horrible playstyle that doesn't fit with what Wildstar is.  Sorry if that is your playstyle, but really, that's what you want to do?  The LFR for WoW are mindnumbing stupidly easy that it's basically a solo player fight with people around you.  A zergfest, what World Bosses currently are, and reason people want them changed.      
 
Casual gamers bring in alot of money to a game.  The reason Carbine has put forth alot of their development towards this and not raids.  Casuals get a negative remarks towards them because in order to see the content, people have to spend time to play and don't want to spend the time it would take to see it so the content gets nerfed.  Are there casual players that are good, of course.  Are there non-casual players that are bad, of course.  But you see less bad non-casual vs casual because they practice and put the time in to learn the game/encounters.  Alot of people these day's have the mentality of give it to me now, and don't want to work for it.  Why ezmode mobile games are making so much money.  They are easy and give it to me now.  Do you really want Wildstar to be like this?  SO easy a 5 year old can go in and do it?  
 
I know my post is all over the place, but just bringing up points i've seen and my views.  Are views different of course.  Not everyone is the same.  But to generate a game that handles everyones views is impossible.  Build on what is there, like making World Bosses instanced and have a raid finder for those and GA.  I would say make harder expeditions, but the game wants you to play with people.  Not do stuff solo.  Maybe if they made it so expeditions, if ran with more people, got harder, and because of this, the loot level was raised be ok.  
 
*For those wanting to take out the attunement, my personnel opinion on that, get over it.  It's a gate mechanic to make sure you understand the basic of how to play with people.  If you cant do the content for that, not because people aren't running the instances, but because your play level is not good enough to complete the instance, why are you even trying to step into GA?  Like seriously, do you expect to go oh, look, I'm level 50, I can do GA now in my quest greens!
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I have not called, or even implied, that non raiders are lazy or stupid. Most of the raiders I know would not say such things. Yes, some have said it in this thread, but that doesn't mean it represents the whole.
 
As for raids being the same as dungeons in your eyes, it may be a matter of taste, or it may be the effect of power creep that they have lost some of the shine of what they once were. I'd be interested to get a larger sample size of the opinions of those who are just getting into GA to see how they feel about it.
 
I've noted more and more that people new to GA are expecting to clear it in short order, when it used to take months of work to beat ohmna. As it becomes more accessible, and it is, I wonder if people are having less fun doing it?
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I am well aware that you, as an individual, do not view raiding as free license to call strangers names because they don't raid.  That was not a reference to you specifically. 
 
As far as my view of Raids being 20-man Dungeons, well, it's true.  Raids are only called "Raids" because of the number of people involved but the basic principle is exactly the same as a 5-man dungeon.  Delegation of roles and responsibilities on the team in instanced content with mechanics unique to that location.  Whether the Raid is "easy" or "hard" or "simple" or "complex" is entirely dependent on the approach taken by the Development Team that put it together.
 
That is not commentary about the difficulty of Dungeons, I actually rather enjoy the Dungeons in Wildstar and have pugged them every chance I could... in spite of the fact that now that I'm sporting a bunch of Raid gear they have become a bit of a faceroll <_<
 
There is nothing about Raiding that is inherently different from Dungeons other than the number of players required to participate - nothing.  Raids can and do come in all shapes and sizes with a wide variety approaches to things like accessibility in every MMO and it is all entirely dependent on the philosphy of the design teams.
 
This is why it baffles me, constantly, that people want to act like Raiding is something "special" or "different", like it has to be a "unique" feature solely because of the number of people involved.  And it is particularly frustrating when people think that Raiding gives them license to act like they are somehow special.
 
You have seen them, you know full well that this small subset of a small subset of the population does the most harm in every MMO, and over what?  Because they prefer to do things in games that require a better understanding of the mechanics and a bit more coordination?  Good for them, so what!  I do it too, you don't see me calling non-Raiders names because they want a version of the content that makes them happy.  It does not now, nor does it ever, justify treating people like crap.  That doesn't just cause problems for them, that causes problems for you too, and me, and everyone else.
 
It's especially obnoxious when people try to equate anything in a video game with the term "work".  "Work" is what people do to get paid and put food on their table.  Last I checked Raiding doesn't pay anybody - it is purely about individual preference and having fun... meaning that if people prefer to run LFR then that is their prerogative because it is a Video Game - A Toy - something people do for fun and entertainment. 
 
Who are these social rejects of the internet to call people names because other people would prefer a dumbed down version of Raiding to keep them happy?
 
 
 
Yes, there has been lots of evidence.  In particular when someone from Carbine came right out and said during an interview that "they never intended for Wildstar to not be casual friendly"...  Which actually leads me to my next point.
 
Why in the hell do so many people, up to and including the game developers themselves, buy into this bullshit fallacy of the "Casual vs. Hardcore" False Dichotomy?  You want to talk about bad design decisions outside of Housing, here's what happened that led to a F2P transition:
 
Carbine went through all this effort to create all this great content for the end game and then they shot themselves in the foot by arbitrarily relegating each type of content to a specific item level bracket...  What??  Why??  So now, here's what you've got - Craploads of really great content where 75% of that content is almost completely irrelevant to any given person at any given point in time both in terms of it's applicable challenge level and the rewards for doing it.
 
I'm sporting Raid gear, how much enjoyment does Carbine think I will get out of Expeditions (SHIPHANDS DAMNIT!)?  How much enjoyment am I supposed to get out of Adventures?  Hell, even the Dungeons and World Bosses are a faceroll now that I've outgeared them. 
 
I only Raid one night a week because that's what I have time for, so when I log in between Raid nights I ask myself the same question that everyone else does:  "What do I want to do tonight?"  And, sadly the answers to that question are always limited to either a) content that I no longer find challenging, B) Housing (which I absolutely love, btw, but I've hit a bit of "writer's block" with my most recent project), or c) to go play something else...
 
^ And that's not just me, how often do we hear about this thing called "Raid-Logging"?  How long is it supposed to take before people lose interest entirely and decide it's not worth the effort to log in at all anymore, let alone feel that they are enjoying the content enough to want to support it by buying that Uber-Leet Sparkle Pony off the cash shop?  I don't think I really need to state in plain english just how exactly that affected the P2P model and the quarterly numbers :huh:
 
And that's just at the upper end of the item level bracket, what about the lower end?  Same thing, just in reverse!  There exists a crapload of people, in fact I would say overwhelming majority, who for whatever reason don't play MMOs for things like Raiding and Gear Progression, it's almost like they play it solely for the enjoyment of logging in and talking to people and they're just looking for something random to occupy their time with.  It's almost like they don't even have a specific agenda!  OMG, so weird, who would play an MMO like this???
 
Well, we saw what happened with them quarterly numbers prior to the F2P transition.  As it turns out, people weren't content to run the same content over and over again with any sort of variation in their nightly routine, no matter what their skill level and interests are... because, again, 75% of the endgame content is practically irrelevant to any given person at any given point in time.  Go figure, it affects everyone of every playstyle and skill level.
 
 
I would honestly love to see ilvl 90+ versions of Shiphands, Adventures, and Dungeons.  Just because I've been Raiding, it doesn't mean that I don't want to be challenged or engaged by anything else in the game on non-raid nights. 
 
On the flip side of that, I've made a lot of friends in the Housing aspect of the game (I secretly call them the "IKEA Overlords!" :D ) who would most likely appreciate the opportunity to fund their Housing addiction with something that isn't Dailies and Shiphands.  Having ilvl 55-65 versions of Adventures and Dungeons would go a long way to broaden their nightly gameplay options and help to avoid stagnation for them.  Having an LFR in this game would go even further by broadening the potential for content that is also relevant to them.
 
As I have said since this game released last year:  "This is an MMO, people do not play solely for the opportunity to 'see' the content once and then never do it again.  They will play this game habitually, on a nightly basis, for several hours at a time and every person that Carbine hopes will support this game is going to ask the same question every single time they log in - 'What do I want to do tonight?'  IF the answers to that question are the same 2 or 3 things every single night for every single person then the majority of people will lose interest and the game will no longer be an equitable expenditure for them either in terms of time or money."
 
I think it's safe to say, having looked at the pre-f2p quarterly numbers, I am not wrong.
 
So, I wouldn't say that the non-Raid content outside of Housing "fell flat", per se (except Adventures).  The content is great and people love it, it's just that Carbine went through great lengths to create it and then make disposable with this odd decision to relegate everything to a specific ilevel bracket as opposed to including multiple ilevel brackets (or "difficulty levels" if people prefer to call it that) for each type of content and letting the players decide from day to day how they would prefer to spend their time and at what levels of involvement they want to do that at.
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Again - I actually think there are a lot of reasonable ideas here.  As for dungeons, i dn't think their needs to be a "hardmode"  Instead what we like to do is try for gold in all of them - which is really fun!  (you should try it).
 
The lower level content is really awesome, but too easy (agreed here).  We could modify it as i suggested in an earlier post, or even dual levels would be awesome as well.
 
As for housing, whatever disagreements we've had in this thread, come to my house and check it out :3  I also need builders for projects i have so let me know if you have time.
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There is nothing about Raiding that is inherently different from Dungeons other than the number of players required to participate - nothing.
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Man, there has been so many different views in this thread.  The thing that stands out is people want so many things to this game to even change how this game is progression wise.  Some wanting to change it to have this game not be linear progression but something else which would completly change this game and how it runs.  To changing how raids are and how to obtain loot.
 
Now having some form of small group content that is more challenging than the currently challenging vet dungeons (I've seen vet dungeons are to hard too) really makes me go "huh?".  I can understand having this but it comes down to the rewards and would they be on par with raid gear?  Or for doing harder expeditions and wanting to be able to obtain vet dungeon level gear (I'm going to say no on the raid level gear for expeditions).  BTW, I really haven't seen raiders asking for "raid" challenge of solo or small group content but by non raiders which makes no sense to me because you would need raid gear to do this content.  So it is coming down to being able to progress past vet dungeons and "level up" your character and not having to purchase BOE gear from the AH.  That's fine for me honest, but there's a reason disband when Protogames pops up.  Than it comes down to raids.
 
The two difficulty of raids, what would be the rewards for the lesser challenging GA?  Currently GA iLvl is 96-100, so would the rewards be 86-90?  That is vet dungeon level rewards and World Bosses so why not do those (reason why instanced World Bosses has been asked for)?  Also, I would personally be pissed if they gave out the costume "skins" for the lesser challenge raid.  Also, GA isn't hard anymore with the way of power creep, it just needs just takes time to understand the encounters.  So it comes down to accessability.  They have plans to fix raid accessability, even posted in this thread that they are looking at raid lockouts and a better queue system.  
 
For future raids, I have no problem with 2 difficulties if they do it right.  You have to make it so vet dungeons and past content don't become obsolete.    But the current content, is it just wanting to see the raids?  If so, than well, have to put in the time to see them.  So people want to go into raids, but they don't want to raid.  WTH????
 
The big reason raiders don't want a "LFR" of content is the type of player it brings.  They get to max level, hope in LFR, run the super easy content, than quit.  This doesn't make players better.  Just brings a horrible playstyle that doesn't fit with what Wildstar is.  Sorry if that is your playstyle, but really, that's what you want to do?  The LFR for WoW are mindnumbing stupidly easy that it's basically a solo player fight with people around you.  A zergfest, what World Bosses currently are, and reason people want them changed.      
 
Casual gamers bring in alot of money to a game.  The reason Carbine has put forth alot of their development towards this and not raids.  Casuals get a negative remarks towards them because in order to see the content, people have to spend time to play and don't want to spend the time it would take to see it so the content gets nerfed.  Are there casual players that are good, of course.  Are there non-casual players that are bad, of course.  But you see less bad non-casual vs casual because they practice and put the time in to learn the game/encounters.  Alot of people these day's have the mentality of give it to me now, and don't want to work for it.  Why ezmode mobile games are making so much money.  They are easy and give it to me now.  Do you really want Wildstar to be like this?  SO easy a 5 year old can go in and do it?  
 
I know my post is all over the place, but just bringing up points i've seen and my views.  Are views different of course.  Not everyone is the same.  But to generate a game that handles everyones views is impossible.  Build on what is there, like making World Bosses instanced and have a raid finder for those and GA.  I would say make harder expeditions, but the game wants you to play with people.  Not do stuff solo.  Maybe if they made it so expeditions, if ran with more people, got harder, and because of this, the loot level was raised be ok.  
 
*For those wanting to take out the attunement, my personnel opinion on that, get over it.  It's a gate mechanic to make sure you understand the basic of how to play with people.  If you cant do the content for that, not because people aren't running the instances, but because your play level is not good enough to complete the instance, why are you even trying to step into GA?  Like seriously, do you expect to go oh, look, I'm level 50, I can do GA now in my quest greens!
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It's especially obnoxious when people try to equate anything in a video game with the term "work".  "Work" is what people do to get paid and put food on their table.  Last I checked Raiding doesn't pay anybody - it is purely about individual preference and having fun... meaning that if people prefer to run LFR then that is their prerogative because it is a Video Game - A Toy - something people do for fun and entertainment. 
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All end game content needs some form of scaling. Dungeons/Pvp/Raids. Raids have it, Pvp kind of has it, Dungeons have nothing. Then again some "people" cant even do dungeons so giving more levels of difficulty to them would be done by those who do them now. Leaving the others to come on here and complain that it isn't "Progression" for them.  :ph34r:
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Larger numbers means that you can create encounters that require a higher degree of coordination, and the feel is very different. Sure, raids can be like dungeons with lots of players, but in WS (especially in Datascape) it's not always the case.
 
Compare System Daemons to Mordachai. Both are very challenging encounters. What is the level of individual mechanics in both? Well, the challenge of individual mechanics on System Daemons is quite small. Almost all of the jobs require you do do one or two things well. Control group? position mobs and stun them. Kicker? Kick power surge and drop stacks. Tank? Move the daemons to the proper pillars. And yes, everyone has to deal with purge properly. But let's face it, that's nothing compared to what you have to do on Mordachai, where it's easy to make one mistake and you are dead. Jumping over lasers and dodging pools is much harder than any of the individual mechanics on SD. What about coordination? Mordachai has almost no coordination whatsoever. If two people can survive long enough, they basically can kill the thing without anybody else. But SD, well, it's a whole other ball of wax. The coordination of all the moving parts is very complex and challenging.
 
Dungeons simply cannot over the coordination complexity that a fight with 20 people can. Now largely this isn't a thing in GA. But in DS, it's more and more the style of the fights,
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			How you state something makes a world of difference in how it's received :)	
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How you state something makes a world of difference in how it's received :)
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"*cupcake* it, who's spreading purge!"
 
"Damn it kickers, do your job."
 
"Add room needs to get on the ball"
 
"Moar dots on 2nd pillar phase"
 
"Final phase, avoid red"
 
 
Thought jeff might get a laugh out of that.  I see that you also went 1/9.  Belated Congrats :P
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LOL- yes!  And thanks :) We've also downed Limbo, but thus far I'm not counting it because it's bugged :(  We're having fun with minis and Lettuce, but running into holiday schedules so will be a bit before we can get back to working on Lettuce.
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dont forget
 
"coming down with purge, everyone watch out"
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Seeing different posters here with different definitions of what "average" is.
 
Simply by that the term average player is "Not defined" hence this entire thread is "not defined" XD	
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Seeing different posters here with different definitions of what "average" is.
 
Simply by that the term average player is "Not defined" hence this entire thread is "not defined" XD
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eh, this thread has a point. It's mostly about people giving their perspectives on where the game should focus and what features would be helpful or harmful, with a little namecalling and shaming to add flavor.
 
But I don't think it's pointless. While we each represent our own perspective, I'm sure it's helpful for the devs to read how we think about things and what our concerns are. Obviously at least TT spent some time reading this, since he did comment.	
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You're wasting your breath. I said the exact same shit as you and the casual brigade hopped all over me. Some people just want immediate gratification with no time investment. Guess what? If something in life is worth having, then its worth working for.
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Any post that goes on for 44+ pages and doesn't actually have a point is "not defined." This is just one long whiny rant where everyone wants the game to be what they want and nobody else. 
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Its the old casual/hardcore argument with a new flavor called"Average" lol -Only 10 plat buy when its cheap
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You're wasting your breath. I said the exact same shit as you and the casual brigade hopped all over me. Some people just want immediate gratification with no time investment. Guess what? If something in life is worth having, then its worth working for.
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			TBF Cern, not all raiders are like him.  Just unfortunately the nastiest ones in here are giving the rest of them a bad name  <_<
			
				
	Edited December 21, 2015 by beattlebilly	
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it cuts both ways. Hard to have a serious discussion about any of this when terms like "instant gratification" and "general masses" are thrown about, it just sounds like elitist self-aggrandising,
 
In the minds of much of the raiding community there seems to be just two possibilities:
 
1) Hardcore Raiding Mode
 
2) Instant Gratification Mode
 
And nothing in between.
 
Yet this middle ground is where the majority of "average" PC gamers actually inhabit. They don't want things dumbed down to the level of mobile games or stupid demeaning mini games, nor to be told to go play with the ever-increasing fluff being thrown into the game in order to prop up the "real" gamers (i.e. the raiders). Many just want the fun and exciting content to be scaled where possible and made a bit more accessible, perhaps by breaking things into more manageable chunks and/or difficulty modes. You know, like many other MMOs have already managed with their raid content - Story Modes, Heroic Modes, Challenge Modes, Raid Wings, call it what you will.
 
None of this prevents the existing raids remaining just as difficult, challenging and time consuming as they already are. In their full form  they represent the pinnacle and should always have the best rewards. But it beats me why raiders in this game have their noses so out of joint by the prospect of opening things up to a wider audience, unless of course it's that special snowflake factor, the bragging rights and all that. In which case ...... get over yourselves or you won't have a game to brag about being so fantastic in ;)
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TBF Cern, not all raiders are like him.  Just unfortunately the noisiest ones in here are giving the rest of them a bad name  <_<
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You people just aren't willing to put the time into the game to be successful at raiding. I have literally seen new people brought into my guild, in dungeon gear, and clearing DS in 2 months time. This person put forth the time and effort to be as good as they could in that short amount of time. The average player is the player 1/9 ds or 6/6 ga. The casual players are the ones pugging ga and complaining about rune costs and shit. The actual dedicated and experienced players are the ones clearing elemental pairs, downing avatus, and doing Hardmentors. If you are satisfied with being mundane then thats your problem. There are other parts of the game that cater to people with less time/experience/skill. DS is a simple as pie btw when you actually get some experience with it.
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it cuts both ways. Hard to have a serious discussion about any of this when terms like "instant gratification" and "general masses" are thrown about, it just sounds like elitist self-aggrandising,
 
In the minds of much of the raiding community there seems to be just two possibilities:
 
1) Hardcore Raiding Mode
 
2) Instant Gratification Mode
 
And nothing in between.
 
Yet this middle ground is where the majority of "average" PC gamers actually inhabit. They don't want things dumbed down to the level of mobile games or stupid demeaning mini games, nor to be told to go play with the ever-increasing fluff being thrown into the game in order to prop up the "real" gamers (i.e. the raiders). Many just want the fun and exciting content to be scaled where possible and made a bit more accessible, perhaps by breaking things into more manageable chunks and/or difficulty modes. You know, like many other MMOs have already managed with their raid content - Story Modes, Heroic Modes, Challenge Modes, Raid Wings, call it what you will.
 
None of this prevents the existing raids remaining just as difficult, challenging and time consuming as they already are. In their full form  they represent the pinnacle and should always have the best rewards. But it beats me why raiders in this game have their noses so out of joint by the prospect of opening things up to a wider audience, unless of course it's that special snowflake factor, the bragging rights and all that. In which case ...... get over yourselves or you won't have a game to brag about being so fantastic in ;)
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You people just aren't willing to put the time into the game to be successful at raiding. I have literally seen new people brought into my guild, in dungeon gear, and clearing DS in 2 months time. This person put forth the time and effort to be as good as they could in that short amount of time. The average player is the player 1/9 ds or 6/6 ga. The casual players are the ones pugging ga and complaining about rune costs and shit. The actual dedicated and experienced players are the ones clearing elemental pairs, downing avatus, and doing Hardmentors. If you are satisfied with being mundane then thats your problem. There are other parts of the game that cater to people with less time/experience/skill. DS is a simple as pie btw when you actually get some experience with it.
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The comprehension level of the general masses is no concern of mine.
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 Oh look, another "special snowflake". I'm happy to hear that your level of responsibilities in life allow such dedication to game, but putting others down because they have more requirements on their time than you is childish and ignorant at best.
 
It should be pretty telling that over a year after release your definition of the "average" player has only cleared 1/9 DS.............that's not accessibility kiddo. Especially when you take a look at what the industry standard is for MMO content lifespans. DS is past it's time, there should/needs to be a new update, but how is that justifiable when the "average" player hasn't even seen more than a couple fights?
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			I agree about wanting it to be more accessible without reducing the challenge (and fun).
			
				
	Edited December 21, 2015 by SlyJeff	
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Seems this thread has turned into raiding thread.
{| class="blockquote"
it cuts both ways. Hard to have a serious discussion about any of this when terms like "instant gratification" and "general masses" are thrown about, it just sounds like elitist self-aggrandising,
 
In the minds of much of the raiding community there seems to be just two possibilities:
 
1) Hardcore Raiding Mode
 
2) Instant Gratification Mode
 
And nothing in between.
 
Yet this middle ground is where the majority of "average" PC gamers actually inhabit. They don't want things dumbed down to the level of mobile games or stupid demeaning mini games, nor to be told to go play with the ever-increasing fluff being thrown into the game in order to prop up the "real" gamers (i.e. the raiders). Many just want the fun and exciting content to be scaled where possible and made a bit more accessible, perhaps by breaking things into more manageable chunks and/or difficulty modes. You know, like many other MMOs have already managed with their raid content - Story Modes, Heroic Modes, Challenge Modes, Raid Wings, call it what you will.
 
None of this prevents the existing raids remaining just as difficult, challenging and time consuming as they already are. In their full form  they represent the pinnacle and should always have the best rewards. But it beats me why raiders in this game have their noses so out of joint by the prospect of opening things up to a wider audience, unless of course it's that special snowflake factor, the bragging rights and all that. In which case ...... get over yourselves or you won't have a game to brag about being so fantastic in ;)
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It's harder to carry someone through a fight like System Daemons. Even Ohmna is more puggable with a handful of experienced players. You can probably carry two or three through SD if everyone knows it. Probably more with gear.
 
I don't know what to do about that to make it more accessible, because it's about the best fight I've experienced in an MMO from a fun standpoint. It's a bit of a shame, because from what I've seen, DS is actually the kind of environment that casuals would really enjoy (we certainly are!). Maybe one day, after the new raid comes out, they can make SD an optional boss.
			
				
	Edited December 22, 2015 by SlyJeff	
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Dude, you are so hostile on all your posts.  You really don't understand what Wildstar raiding is from all your posts.  You think Raiding is the only thing to do at 50, when it's the top and last thing to do.  There is so much more to do.  Shoryken has said what alot of raiders think, put in your time and get the content down.  Don't expect things to be handed to you after a couple hours of wiping on a boss.  It's not being a special snowflake, if anything it's you wanting to be a special snowflake because you can't do raids.  You just seem to be bitter towards all raiders.  
 
I've mentioned a raid finder to add, but I really don't see SD being downed in a raid finder.  I really don't see players wiping 200+ times on SD in a raid finder or spending all night doing it.  Than they have to do it again the next night, because new people or someone thinking they can do SD right after downing ohmna in dungeon gear queues up.  Thats what you will see in a raid finder.  Unless they do a iLvl requirement say 100 which Carbine does not want to do, and they shouldn't because someone may have all 100, but that one drop they couldnt get gives them a iLvl 86 dungeon piece.  GA is able to do that, I don't know about SD yet, unless it's been by people that have downed SD.
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It's harder to carry someone through a fight like System Daemons. Even Ohmna is more puggable with a handful of experienced players. You can probably carry two or three through SD if everyone knows it. Probably more with gear.
 
I don't know what to do about that to make it more accessible, because it's about the best fight I've experienced in an MMO from a fun standpoint. It's a bit of a shame, because from what I've seen, DS is actually the kind of environment that casuals would really enjoy (we certainly are!). Maybe one day, after the new raid comes out, they can make SD an optional boss.
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It's a shame on several levels.
 
A shame for the players who would like to experience it but can't as currently configured, but don't want to be carried. It's a shame for guilds who would like to have some raiding options for less experienced and/or benched members. And a shame for the devs - all that hard work and countless hours spent building the raid content and then it only reaches the eyes of a small subset of the game's population.
 
So let's say they make an easier version of each raid. Let's call it 'Loppmode' with lower gear requirements and slightly more relaxed / forgiving mechanics and perhaps some flexibility on numbers and time required. If the Hardmode version is left as currently, how does this dumb anything down? The players likely to enjoy 'Loppmode' aren't, for the most part, likely to be players who wish to step up to Hardmode. Some might and they'll likely be valuable team members for Hardmode because they'll have learned the fights and will know what they need to hone / improve. But for many Loppmode is likely to be good enough for them. This could be achieved either with or without a LFR system.
 
Mediocre? Mundane? Quite frankly, who cares if the players are happy and logging in to enjoy the content. And if there's still shinies that can only be obtained in Hardmode, then those that need shiny baubles as badges of honour can still have them.
 
I know the argument is that balancing an easier version takes away development time from the Hardmode raids. But, if the game shuts down because it didn't widen it's appeal, who's raiding Hardmode anyway? The "best raids in any MMO" will be in the great digital Recycle Bin in the sky.
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It's a shame on several levels.
 
A shame for the players who would like to experience it but can't as currently configured, but don't want to be carried. It's a shame for guilds who would like to have some raiding options for less experienced and/or benched members. And a shame for the devs - all that hard work and countless hours spent building the raid content and then it only reaches the eyes of a small subset of the game's population.
 
So let's say they make an easier version of each raid. Let's call it 'Loppmode' with lower gear requirements and slightly more relaxed / forgiving mechanics and perhaps some flexibility on numbers and time required. If the Hardmode version is left as currently, how does this dumb anything down? The players likely to enjoy 'Loppmode' aren't, for the most part, likely to be players who wish to step up to Hardmode. Some might and they'll likely be valuable team members for Hardmode because they'll have learned the fights and will know what they need to hone / improve. But for many Loppmode is likely to be good enough for them. This could be achieved either with or without a LFR system.
 
Mediocre? Mundane? Quite frankly, who cares if the players are happy and logging in to enjoy the content. And if there's still shinies that can only be obtained in Hardmode, then those that need shiny baubles as badges of honour can still have them.
 
I know the argument is that balancing an easier version takes away development time from the Hardmode raids. But, if the game shuts down because it didn't widen it's appeal, who's raiding Hardmode anyway? The "best raids in any MMO" will be in the great digital Recycle Bin in the sky.
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Meh, reduction of difficulty and forgiving takes away what makes Wildstar raids great.  But that's just me.  If you really think making an easier raid or how many are raiding is the make/break of why this game doesn't have a million subscribers and is dying, well, just smh. 
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In other word *cupcake* easy content for the mass trash. Yup good to see you are so special that you need your handheld. Whose a special snow flake, Yous a specul snuflak
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I mean. Basically yes. How does this effect your in game experience negatively exactly? I mean, you can still do your super elite hardcore stuff right? In fact, it might even be better for you cause then you can just /inspect people and then if they are in easy mode gear you can make fun of them a lot so you can feel better about yourself. Win win!
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You think making LFR is going to save this game? Or just blinded because #lazy cant do it right now. How about creating new content that actually might bring new players. 
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In other word *cupcake* easy content for the mass trash. Yup good to see you are so special that you need your handheld. Whose a special snow flake, Yous a specul snuflak
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I meet hostility in kind. Raid finder and separate boss lockouts is a start..............but my point still stands. DS as a raid is absolutely ancient in terms of typical MMO content lifespans, so the fact that I'd wager a majority of players haven't seen past a couple bosses is pretty sad since that is what end-game in WS is based around. Please don't start about adventures and expeditions......it's been widely lamented about how useless those are right now. That leaves what? Dungeons which can be rendered pointless by crafting and housing?
 
I'm not going to change your perception, that much is clear...........but come on, DO YOU really like that making a few subtle changes to a failed design/marketing philosophy is going to work?
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You are one of the people giving raiders a bad name.
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