110872-grinding-does-not-equate-hardcore

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So I've noticed that Carbine is trying to take away some of the grind in Wildstar, and a lot of people are happy about this ('cause the grind is pretty significant). For example, the change on getting bonus amp points and bonus ability points. However, I also noticed that some people think this is making their game 'less Hardcore' and 'more casual'. Now, I somehow think these so called 'hardcore' players (and I say so called, 'cause they aren't really that) forgot about what hardcore means.
 
Because for those people, somehow Hardcore = Grinding. You want the ability point? Grind for weeks on end every day the same easy daily quests. You want that epic that's not a giant upgrade? Grind dem golds in dungeons, 'cause skipping mobs is hardcore. You want that attunement? Go grind the same world boss over and over and go grind silvers, 'cause again, skipping trashmobs is hardcore.
 
Now, first things first, the hardcore aspect of this game (and this has been said many times), are the raids, because they are hard and require full concetration and dedication. The rest of the game? It's not really advertised as hardcore, because there are plenty other MMO's out there which are far more hardcore (stuff like losing gear when you die). This game only has a small section of hardcore, and that's the raiding. 
 
Now, back to the point at hand. You want to know why grinding doesn't equate hardcore? Well, that's because grinding equals repetition of something that's most of the time easily achieved (like doing dailies every day) to finally get something you want (like gear, or ability points). There ain't anything hard about that. Dailies are brainless and very easy to do. Hardcore means that something is hard to do or that there are giant consequences when you fail to do it. Hardcore doesn't mean that you have to spend hours on hours succeeding at the same thing you've already done. There is no giant consequence on me failing the grind, it just means that I don't have enough time on my hands to succeed at the grind.
 
I know what some of you might think: "But getting gold or silver status in a dungeon is hard, so that's hardcore, right? Besides, failing at that objective meant that you have to do it over again without getting anything out of it!". Well, even though that might be true, there are two important points to counteract this. One, dungeons are supposed to be hard, but not hardcore. Second, what ended up happening was that people would not go through the whole dungeon when they knew they couldn't get the medal, and the only way to get the medals was by skipping trashmobs. Timers are an artificial way of making stuff harder, but they are also a way to make things more tedious. The difficulty needs to be in the encounters themselves. Besides, real life effects can interfere with the run very easily, like going to the bathroom or getting a disconnect. So them removing the medal requirement for getting good gear and getting the attunement doesn't make the game more casual, it makes the game less tedious. And if you still want that gold medal, you still get rewarded for that, so there's your so called 'hardcore' aspect. 
 
So please, when Carbine makes a change and you're one of these people who complained in the past, think about this first. Did the change make the game seriously easier, or did it make it less grindy? If it make it less grindy, then it didn't dumb the game down, just less time consuming.	
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			Dedication is part of the definition of hardcore.	
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Dedication is part of the definition of hardcore.
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I can't believe I'm about to say this, but I agree with Lethality.
 
This is the point when asking for accesibility becomes "Gimme Gimme Gimme"
 
Dedication is the main characteristic of a succesful raider.
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I agree with your reply, but Grinding for the sake of grinding serves no purpose, unless that's what you set out to do in the first place.
 
Grinding reputation, or a specific mob for a rare drop, or mats for crafting or even, as you say, wiping numerous times, it all amounts to repeating a familiar and after a while, tedious action.
 
All I'm saying is that you while it's true that Hardcore does not equal grinding, it takes a special kind of dedicated player (usually the one labeled as Hardcore) to endure Grinding for a specific purpose.
 
Grinding just because, is pointless and stupid.	
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I agree with your reply, but Grinding for the sake of grinding serves no purpose, unless that's what you set out to do in the first place.
 
Grinding reputation, or a specific mob for a rare drop, or mats for crafting or even, as you say, wiping numerous times, it all amounts to repeating a familiar and after a while, tedious action.
 
All I'm saying is that you while it's true that Hardcore does not equal grinding, it takes a special kind of dedicated player (usually the one labeled as Hardcore) to endure Grinding for a specific purpose.
 
Grinding just because, is pointless and stupid.
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Yeah, I never understood the dispute between hardcore and casual. The difference is as simple as the time you put in.
Hardcore mean to me: Dedicated, Loyal and afraid of change. And dedication is always tested when thing are not going your way. it's easier to like something that is perfect, than something that is perfect, but sometime like to be a @%$%^.
 
SO grinding is not hardcore, but if you are a Wildstar's Hardcore Player, you will dedicated your time and effort to be the best, with the best gear. (AKA grind the shit out of the game)
 
Think of this game, who is trying to be a hardcore friendly MMO, as a Diablo or any other hack n' Slash with drop. You don't need to dedicated your time to play the game. But if you have time to dedicated, the game will make it easy and rewarding for you. As Wildstar does.
 
Imagine seeing (if the loot system doesnt change lets say) someone with the BEST item in every slot. Epic, max rune, perfect color,just perect. You will KNOW that this guy is hardcore. Not someone who raided 2nights a week for 2 months.
 
And btw, Hardcore have nothing to do with the difficulty of the game.	
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			Everyone has their own definition of hardcore so before starting this discussion you should lay out what your definition of that is, but after that you'll realize arguing such undefined and open definition is pointless. 	
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I find the whole "hardcore" concept both stupid and immature.
 
I used to be "hardcore," but now that I have a family, and with limited time, I can't stand games that cater to that demographic (tolerating this one).
 
Really, life is a tedious-endless grind. Least I need (like many others) is to grind my way into attunements and what not. There should be tiers of difficulty at least (normal, hardcore) to accomodate both playstyles. I have yet to run a dungeon, and I refuse to do so, as I heard and read many horror stories on how difficult, unrewarding, and uninspiring they are. I would HATE to waste my limited time on something that would not reward me accordingly.
 
The game should be challenging yes, but not tedious and overly difficult. Please do away with unnecessary grinds. 	
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I find the whole "hardcore" concept both stupid and immature.
 
I used to be "hardcore," but now that I have a family, and with limited time, I can't stand games that cater to that demographic (tolerating this one).
 
Really, life is a tedious-endless grind. Least I need (like many others) is to grind my way into attunements and what not. There should be tiers of difficulty at least (normal, hardcore) to accomodate both playstyles. I have yet to run a dungeon, and I refuse to do so, as I heard and read many horror stories on how difficult, unrewarding, and uninspiring they are. I would HATE to waste my limited time on something that would not reward me accordingly.
 
The game should be challenging yes, but not tedious and overly difficult. Please do away with unnecessary grinds. 
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I think the hardcore v casual debate has completely muddied several important issues.  It shouldn't matter whether things are "hardcore" or "casual".  Do they stand on their own merits?
 
Daily quests, are they boring?  After a while, yes.  Are they necessary and serve a function?  Yes, they give you something repeatable to do (with some variety at least) that earns you currency and experience after you've gone 100% on the rest of the game.  They do serve a purpose.  Could they be improved?  Definitely, any PVE solo additions help.  But they are there to perform a function, there they should remain and hopefully be improved.  If we don't like it, we need a new or added system to take their place.
 
Gear grind?  There's a point that becomes too lenient, but I think the larger and more frustrating problem is the amount of time spent getting nothing.  As I've said a few times, players will grind a hundred tokens for a piece of gear with a lot less complaint than they'll run the same content for something on a 1% drop rate.  That's irrespective of if the former does give them a roughly 50% chance to beat the odds; people aren't clamoring for instant rewards as much as they just want something that rewards them for running the content.  That's completely divorced from the idea of hardcore or casual.  You can't made it so lenient, though, that it all falls like rain.  Gearing grinds serve a purpose as well, keeping you strung along and "leveling" past the cap.
 
I think we'd cover more ground if we left concepts of hardcore and casual behind and thought of everything in the game as a component.  Does it serve its purpose, does it go too far in any single direction, and how can the combinations of these systems produce better systems?  Let these things stand on their own feet as ideas, regardless of dualistic gaming ideologies.	
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			I think it really depends on the game. There have been several discussions about what hardcore actually means, and most people have differing opinions. I tend to think of hardcore as being difficult in challenge, skill, etc, etc--more so than time gates, time sinks and other forms of "dedication", but then again, Wstar seems to define itself as hardcore equating to time sinks. So maybe it really isn't the game for some us after all.	
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Things worth having are worth working for.
 
Also, grinding is hardcore because it means you are investing a lot of time into something, which is the definition of hardcore in terms of video games.  You can be unskilled and hardcore (most rare of the 4 possibilities because you would think, the more you play, the better you would naturally get) and if they invest 10 hours a day grinding on some level 25 mob for a whelpling pet to drop, that is hardcore even though it is "easy".	
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I think it really depends on the game. There have been several discussions about what hardcore actually means, and most people have differing opinions. I tend to think of hardcore as being difficult in challenge, skill, etc, etc--more so than time gates, time sinks and other forms of "dedication", but then again, Wstar seems to define itself as hardcore equating to time sinks. So maybe it really isn't the game for some us after all.
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All right boyz,
n4tive: You have to understand that the game is the way it is to accomodate every type of player. If you are casual, you should not be on a hurry to go through content like the attunement. it's not a chore, its a way to force player to go through the content of the game. it's not something that need to be done for everybody. If you think doing a part of the content of a game isnt for you, well i'm sorry to say but you won't like the game. it's not the game fault. Wildstar give you something to do even for a casual player. You don't need top notch gear to do raid, or vet dungeon.
 
tehacidbaron: Indeed, people have a different approach to the word hardcore. I use this one:
	Having an extreme dedication to a certain activity; diehard.	He's a hardcore gamer.	Resistant to change.	
Obscene or explicit.
So if you find one saying: enjoy challenging stuff, your opinion will be valid too. I ain't saying I'm using the best definition here, it's just the one that I stumble accross on the web.	
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I agree that the debate shouldnt be oriented on the hardcore vs casual subject, but the OP is talking about hardcore.
We all have our expectation and desire, it's normal. For me, I came to Wildstar cuz I was looking for a grinding game, where skills matter in PvP, with a good community and PvE content that is fun and relaxing. I like to learn boss strat and I like to go through dungeon over and over again to become really good at it. I ain't looking forward to the Raid content, because I always felt you lose your identity in a mass of people, at least if you are a DPS.
 
I started playing Wildstar not too long ago with 2 friend. 1 of them is a dedicated PvP player that try to do a lot for the game since the close beta, the other one is like me, brand new to the game but was a dedicated raider in WoW vanilla, BC and WotLK in EU guilds. After entering my first adventure, I was hooked. Stormtalon Lair was the cherry on top of the sundae. But what will make me run this dungeon over and over again? The 0.00001% of having the BiS epic item with the perfect rune setup.
 
Yes okay, some player will argue that the drop are too random, or too small a chance. I agree, but we need to keep the core of the game. Tweaking is what the game need, and it's what it's gonna get if we stop complaining in thread for complete rework. Grindfest for thing that you NEED are a bad game design. Grindfest for thing that you WANT is another pair of glove. If your fun is to log on, do 1-2BG, a couple daily for EG then log off, you can do it. If you want to log on, organise some raiding party in your PvP server with your guild, you can do it. And now, because Wildstar made it available, you can log on, run 10Vet dungeon for a shot at greatness, then log off.
 
In conclusion, I don't want to stomp on anyone opinion, what I want is to have a fun, supportive and united community.	
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			I agree with what you say OP. Well said.	
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I doubt the definition of hardcore actually matters here, what everyone is really arguing about is this: which way should the game go?
 
Some people want time spent playing to be the most important factor in terms of investment versus reward, which it seems to be right now. Others want skill and ability to replace it., allowing people that see gaming as a hobby rather then a lifestyle a chance to compete - like the op. That does not mean that everything should be free and no time investment would be needed, just that the amount of time required would be lessened to the point that a "casual" player can still manage it without sacrificing other things in their lives. I agree with the op, but then I'm in the same boat so small surprise there.
 
All in all, what really ticks me off is people who feel better then others because they invest more time into the game, or people that feel that they are entitled to receive more developer attention - more content - for the same reason. We are all paying customers, and we all support the game equally. There should be content suited for each group, and no group should be favored. Currently almost all mmorpgs cater mostly to people with time on their hands, despite the fact that "casuals" appear to be the majority. I'm still waiting for a developer brave enough to reverse that, and I think that alone would probably make their game one of the most popular - it's not just the amount or quality of content that would entice casuals, it's being rid of the feeling of being the red-headed step child.
 
As to why I'd even bother with a "harcore" game if I feel this way - read the op. I hoped the game would follow her definition of hardcore, rather then the grindy one.	
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I doubt the definition of hardcore actually matters here, what everyone is really arguing about is this: which way should the game go?
 
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This. The actual deffinition of hardcore vs. casual is very simple, and is really only based on how active you are in game. Hardcore players spend the most time engaging with the game; casuals spend less.
 
But what people here are really discussing is something very different than that; people are discussing what they wan't to see in an MMO regardless of how often one plays.
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There is no way you can please both the one that like invested time to be rewarded and those who want skills. The fact is: if you want to be rewarded for your skills, you have to do PvP. I know there is problem with gear and rating sinking, but once thats fix, it's really the only way to reward skills. And i'm allright with that.
 
I know i'm gonna get bully for saying this but: there is not that much skills needed in ANY PvE content anyway. There is NO way they will ever reward good PvE player, cuz the skill cap you can obtain is basicly just the skill cap to be in the raid in the first place. So PvE will and will always be rewarded by time invested. You go in, learn the fight, do the fight, farm the fight.	
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I read this and I laugh just a little inside... You don't know what "Grinding" unless you played the original EQ... That was a grind and did set the definition of "Hardcore". Now days everyone has the mentality of I want to be able to do everything and I'm entitled to have everything with very little effort.
 
In all honesty, this is actually one of the least grindy games I've played. You don't Have to grind the factions as the gear they sell is quickly replaced in raids. Even games like Rift took a long time doing dailies for a purpose, BIS Runes/Sigil etc...	
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			I'm for grinding, but man does that annoy me when someone bring the old: THIS GAME WAS SO MUCH HARDCORE, STOP QQing. Come on... you were cool back in the day, time to move on now	
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			Yet another FPS player who wants to flatten the terrain before the endgame. It`s an MMORPG. An MMORPG means a grind. Take away the grind and it`s no longer an MMORPG. That`s why people don`t want it removed. Not because they`re imagining themselves to be hardcore, but because they like MMORPGs. Personally I wish people would stop trying to change the genre of the games I`m playing.	
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This. The actual deffinition of hardcore vs. casual is very simple, and is really only based on how active you are in game. Hardcore players spend the most time engaging with the game; casuals spend less.
 
But what people here are really discussing is something very different than that; people are discussing what they wan't to see in an MMO regardless of how often one plays.
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Looks pretty tough to me.
 	
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Grinds are there to give the devs more time to develope the next tier of content.  They can be something that is essentially 'skillless', ie 'collecting 1,000,000 bore butts', but take alot of time to complete.
 
I would prefer a time sink that taught some skill for the player as they engaged in that aspect of the game.  Start off killing 1,000 bores and then do something that requires less time but more skill.  Ideally this is what leveling does.  At the end of the chain there is a single task that requires alot of skill. 
 
But the important thing is that the player feels that he is getting something along the way.  Some skill learned or some currency that leads to something that improves thier character.  Even some lore that is unlocked, something that feels as though the character is living in a world that changes around them as they change.  Think of it as a young man who lives with his aunt and uncle on a moisture farm, he grows and developes to the point where he kisses his sister...
 
....Ohhhh, sorry *SPOILER ALERT* back there...I mean becomes a Jedi.
			
				
	Edited August 28, 2014 by Quuarm	
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			OP is spot on and well said. To claim that Wildstar is not a grindfeast is false. This game is full of boring grind and that has nothing to do with being hardcore at all. I have played EQ for many years and I dont miss those times at all but alot of players a romantic view on grinding boring content and often claim that unless you do that you are not hardcore, which course is not thrue. The same goes for 40 man raids. Same romantic view while in reality 40 man raids are a pain to organise, alot of conflict and players getting burnout.	
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Remember, kids: grinding and dedication are the same thing! Totally! Because a HARCORE game is a game that spits on your fun and makes you work. Anyone who wants to have fun in any way that isn't HARDCORE then is a casual crybaby who wants everything in a silver platter. Totally!
 
Point is: grinding isn't "hardcore". The only thing that challenges is the ammount of time you are willing to throw on a repetitive task. Grinding offers no other challenge. It's a waste of time to keep the player subscribed for a little longer.
 
Ideally, Wildstar's grinds would be fun. In a less ideal world, they would offer a good time/reward ratio at least, one that would make players go "Yeah, I don't like grinding, but the rewards are worth it". That's the biggest problem with our grinding, right now: most people consider the time they will need to invest, time in which they will have no fun because it's not challenging, and go "No, thanks. I'm off to have fun somewhere else." Resulting in these people not "dedicating" themselves to the grind.	
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I really don't think WS is all that grindy. Getting to 50 is fast, gearing up is fast thanks to crafted gear and sure, getting complete amps takes a while, but that's only due to the weekly limit (which doesn't even take long to reach) and not because it takes ages.
 
I really don't see what people consider so grindy in WS, because I can't see it. I do dailies 2 or 3 times a week (and not even all 3 maps) and have no issues capping EG. Other than that, what am I supposed to grind for that I'm currently missing?	
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The difficulty should be in the encounter itself and not the time spent in doing that activity.
 
That is how i look at it. Anyone can be hardcore..all you have to do is quit your job, leave your girlfriend / wife and stay online 15 hours a day assuming you like to sleep 8 hours atleast.
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Fun.... Grind...
Who the &$#%@# are you kidding haha. Grind is there to reward time invested player. that's it. You don't like to grind, well go play super mario world (an EXCELLENT game).	
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And what Nazryn say ^^^. As hard you want to believe that there is a way to make dodging red stuff hard, it just simply doesn't exist in MMO. Like I said: PvE content in an MMO will NEVER EVER EVER reward skills. It will reward time invested by organised guild, that took the time to wipe a 100time per boss, read guide online to min/max their class, look at youtube video to see the boss mechanic, etc...
 
If you want your *skill* to be reward, you need another game. Either a reflex game or a multiplayer competitive game. Go play PvP for instance.	
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ungrateful players everywhere first QQ for PVP patch comes out with some fixes and now the QQ for pve starts, ungrateful players will always find another way to QQ easy if you dont like the PVP or PVE of the game you can always leave	
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			and these so called hardcore always think they are gods gift to every mmo and usually have a bad attitude towards players that do not have unlimited time to play.	
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and these so called hardcore always think they are gods gift to every mmo and usually have a bad attitude towards players that do not have unlimited time to play.
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