114676-on-f2p-the-possibility-of-page-4

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Right now, for 15 dollars a month, we all get everything we want.
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This is so incorrect I just can't even... Look, as a subscriber now, I get the whole game and everything they develop. As a subscriber in a F2P game, I get whatever boost perks subscribing gets, but a portion of the game is now on the cash shop, so all those awesome outfits or whatever that I would have gotten for my $15/month I now have to spend extra on in addition to the $15/month.
 
F2P is a lose across the board for consumers who are willing to subscribe.
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So when compared to WoW which does the exact same thing as Rift and TOR.
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And precisely zero of those had the budget that WildStar had.
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A cash shop adds nothing of value to me, it only reduces my enjoyment of everything it touches.
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A cash shop adds nothing of value to me, it only reduces my enjoyment of everything it touches.
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So what exactly is the working budget of WildStar compared to those other MMO's? What exactly is NCSoft's red line when it comes to income from Wildstar? What % of the revenue of WS comes from CREDD vs Subscription?
 
I mean based on your comments you clearly can answer all those questions right?
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That's simply not true. WoW requires a subscription to even access the world, while the other two do not.
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Then you should consider looking for something else to do, because how many MMO's out there do not have a cash shop now? This one and?
 
Heck even WS has a cash shop really, CREDD is not much more then a cash shop with only one item in it. Cash Shops are quite simply the answer to a subscription fee that hasn't kept up with inflation.
 
Consider that 10 years ago WoW and CoH both charged $15 a month, and yet here we are still paying $15. Does anyone honestly believe that $15 is worth the same in 2014 dollars that it was in 2004 dollars?
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I can tell you all that matters:
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Exactly, they may say subs or bust, and they may mean it. But they're also not the ones that make that decision, NCSoft does.
 
I'd say most every MMO out there that has gone F2P has had devs that say "oh it's fine, we have no intention of going F2P" and 3, 6, 9, 12 or some moths latter put a spin on it and tell everyone how great the new F2P system will be. So the fact that Carbine says it won't happen means pretty much jack, unless they happen to own the IP or something, giving them better leverage over NCSoft then other companies has had.
 
Bottom line is that every AAA mmo that's gone F2P in the last few years, has had an increase in players, and an increase in profits. They may lose some of their Subs, but if they're making more money F2P then the subs that leave just don't matter. Anyone who believes that NCSoft caries more about the opinion of Sub's then they do the bottom line... Well they're out of touch with reality.
 
F2P isn't nearly as bad as some people are making it out to be, STO, LtoRO SWTOR all became better games after going F2P.
 
That said I don't want to see WS go F2P, and I don't expect it to happen until after a year or so if it does at all. It's possible that CREDD may be enough to keep it afloat even if the subs can't. But if it happens, it won't destroy the game any more then it did other games that have gone F2P and now have if anything a larger population then before.
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Then you should consider looking for something else to do, because how many MMO's out there do not have a cash shop now? This one and?
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I'm saying, point blank, it's targeted at making people like me pay more money, and I'm not staying if it does.
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Yet more proof that it's the weakest model? The other 2 do not. The point is you get benefits beyond access as a subscriber in the other two. That's indisputable.
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F2P cash shops are massive.
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That's completely fair. But in STO or SWTOR I paid a sub just like I do WS, and enjoyed everything the game had for no extra money. In fact in both cases you get a stipend to buy cash shop items as part of your sub. In STO's case you could also convert in game currency into cash shop credits.
 
But I'm not trying to convince anyone to stay if they go F2P, just saying it's not as bad as some people think. I'm also pointing out that some people are making patently false statements about the F2P system, not you, but others who claim that going F2P means a loss in income for NCSoft, when every other MMO that's done it saw an increase. Or that NCSoft has put too much money into the game to change it to F2P ever...
  
 
That again depends on how they do it. In many games subscribers get X credits per month to spend on CS items, so they can in fact buy what they want while spending no extra cash then they were before the CS came into the game.
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How in the world is having more optional items for sale a bad thing for anyone? The good ones like STO or SWTOR offer cosmetic items, pets, and other services. SWTOR is a bit more restrictive, but IMO that's a good thing, because it actually encourages people to subscribe something other games like say Rift doesn't.
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Because in a sub-based game those "optional items for sale" would be included in my $15/month.
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because nobody ever said, "The game's quality really rose when the game went F2P unless it was entirely crap before" *coughAgeOfConan*
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That's not really true. In most cases the items would of never been created in the first place, because the dev team doesn't have the resources needed to make them. With the CS they have an increase in income, that lets them expand the team, allowing them to create more content then they could before.
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You seem to be under the impression that making hats and maid outfits consumes way too many resources.
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When the game goes free-to-play, there's a good chance that full-time subscribers will be better off. Even more so for those that pay for multiple months at once.
 
Instead of vanity items being 100p (strain hoverboard) or locked behind RNG loot drops, they would likely be in the shop and able to be purchased by a subscriber using their stipend of credits. Or they would be trade-able and thus available on the market for purchase with gold.
 
Carbine have killed off the Sub = Content fallacy. Many examples given by other posters have killed off the Sub = Customisation falsehood too. If you love customisation, you should embrace a F2P hybrid style model.	
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It's called reading comprehension (emphasis mine):
 
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In most cases the items would of never been created in the first place, because the dev team doesn't have the resources needed to make them.
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The only way I would be okay seeing a Cash Shop is if everything in it was buyable with CREDD.
 
All items should cost $15 or 1 CREDD purchasable in game.  This may mean they include them as bundles to get them to be worth $15.  Also, things like Name Change and Race Change should be $15 or 1 CREDD.
 
This has the added benefit of, making CREDD worth more so people are more likely to buy it for cash and sell it in game, it gives people reason to farm in game, it gives everyone access to these items, either by paying or by investing game time, and it gets more money into Carbine to keep making this awesome game.
 
But the second they put something on there that you need to gain an advantage, I am out.  If they put something like 5x Amp Point unlocks or 2x Skill Points, I am out.	
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I am under no such impression. I'm not even sure how you'd get that from my post.
 
But on that note I'm done with this debate. It's the same debate every other MMO has had, with the same arguments being made.
 
If someone has ideas for ways for WS to increase it's income without going F2P that might be worth reading but the back and forth over opinions on F2P isn't any more.
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The only way I would be okay seeing a Cash Shop is if everything in it was buyable with CREDD.
 
All items should cost $15 or 1 CREDD purchasable in game.  This may mean they include them as bundles to get them to be worth $15.  Also, things like Name Change and Race Change should be $15 or 1 CREDD.
 
This has the added benefit of, making CREDD worth more so people are more likely to buy it for cash and sell it in game, it gives people reason to farm in game, it gives everyone access to these items, either by paying or by investing game time, and it gets more money into Carbine to keep making this awesome game.
 
But the second they put something on there that you need to gain an advantage, I am out.  If they put something like 5x Amp Point unlocks or 2x Skill Points, I am out.
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-The game could reward referrals.
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I gave a friend of mine 2 7 day passes, one for him and one for his wife. They both play MMO's and I thought they might like it. He at least is waiting until I get farther along before he joins... But I was honestly surprised that there is no reward for getting someone to sub to the game.
 
It doesn't even have to be a reduction in sub's, just a mount or something would go along ways.
 
 
That wouldn't bother me, but I know a lot of people would scream bloody murder if such a thing were to happen. Heck they were against such a thing even in games like CoH or CO which having such things would actually add to immersion. Both had plenty of adds in the game already, because things like billboards and vending machines should of been there.
 
 
They did that in CoH, or at least something similar... It was not popular among some because there is no way someone should be able to buy that item I earned by being a subscriber for X months... It really cut into the whole special snowflake mentality.
 
Not saying any of those ideas are bad, just that a lot of people won't like them.
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Carbine have killed off the Sub = Content fallacy. Many examples given by other posters have killed off the Sub = Customisation falsehood too. If you love customisation, you should embrace a F2P hybrid style model.
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The first idea, by giving you MONETARY benefit, not just for yourself but the referred player, leads to large networks of friends showing up and paying less than other games.
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And that assumes the subscription model can actually work for any game other then say WoW... Something that so far has not really proven true. Again this is due as much to the subscription fee being outdated as anything, not the model itself, but the fee's they charge per month.
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This is again, untrue. Most games offer subscribers a stipend to buy stuff from the CS with, and some like STO have ways of converting in game currency into credits, sort of like the CREDD system only in reverse on top the stipend. So it is completely possible for you to get more customization from a CS, without spending an extra dime beyond your subscription fee.
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There are quite a few sub games out there making money on 15$ a month.
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or any number of other, much more engaging experiences.
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			It doesn't matter if there's a stipend or not (though I don't think Aion or Lineage has a stipend). It is still taking content that could have been obtained via playing the game and sticking it on a cash shop that asks people to pay more. Why do you people have such an aversion to playing the game? I don't want to have to interact with a cash shop to get things I want. I want to give Carbine my $15 per month and just play the game.	
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That again depends on how they do it. In many games subscribers get X credits per month to spend on CS items, so they can in fact buy what they want while spending no extra cash then they were before the CS came into the game.
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That's not really true. In most cases the items would of never been created in the first place, because the dev team doesn't have the resources needed to make them. With the CS they have an increase in income, that lets them expand the team, allowing them to create more content then they could before.
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If someone has ideas for ways for WS to increase it's income without going F2P that might be worth reading but the back and forth over opinions on F2P isn't any more.
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It doesn't matter if there's a stipend or not (though I don't think Aion or Lineage has a stipend).
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F2P means lowered quality on the game (slower release of content, less cool stuff, etc), and cool costumes, mounts, emotes and pets locked behind a cash wall.
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So does that mean you retract your challenge? Because you have now 4 out of 12 that don't... Meaning that most in fact do.
 
 
You say that like it's not an option otherwise. Which is again simply untrue. In most games you don't have to ever look at the CS if you don't want to. Worse case for most games is you will have fewer cosmetic items.
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			People are STILL defending F2P as a valid business model for consumers? You're all bonkers.	
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If anything, the box money is a larger barrier to entry.  Nobody seems to mind a 15$ a month fee (some people might want more game for that, but fair enough).  It's that it's hard to get people to buy a box for the game and play without a free trial period.  FFXIV has had a lot of trial periods.
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You seem to be under the impression that making hats and maid outfits consumes way too many resources.
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 I'm only familiar with how that was handled with TOR and I gotta say, hell no.  They have a body customizer that can change face, hair, tattoos, race, etc. but only accepts cash-shop currency.  Dyes are one-time use.  While some awful color combinations are available via crafting, the most popular only come from the cash shop.  $10 and $20 for a consumable.
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Another sensible, polite, well-reasoned, well-supported argument from the Sub-or-Die crowd, I see. How refreshing.  <_<
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Of course that's why they do it. The whole point is another revenue stream. Largely because as I've pointed out, the subscription fee isn't keeping up with inflation.
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Then the solution is simple. Carbine should raise the subscription to $25. Or $30.  I'd happily pay that monthly  to keep Wildstar from going F2P.
 
Then all the F2P lovers can go play some other game.
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Then the solution is simple. Carbine should raise the subscription to $25. Or $30. I'd happily pay that monthly to keep Wildstar from going F2P.
 
Then all the F2P lovers can go play some other game.
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That's too expensive! 
 
I would be willing to pay $25-$30 if it includes really big content updates every 1-2 months. Like at least as big as Drops 1-3 combined and lower the amount of gold sinks throughout the game.
 
 
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There are far more F2P mmos than you listed. I haven't played most of them, because I despise the F2P model. I sincerely doubt most of them offer a stipend.
 
And as a player who values my character's appearance and the ability to customize said appearance above nearly everything else, telling me that I don't "have" to look at a cash shop in F2P games is like telling a raider they don't "have" to raid. You're saying "screw you" to those of us whose primary motivation in playing a game is to obtain items that let us make our characters look how we want.
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I'd be willing to pay $15 a month for monthly updates...
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That was the original plan, right?  It's one thing for players to justify paying a monthly sub based on what they feel they get out of the game (which many do). It's another for the developers to say the sub model is justified by monthly content and then not being able to deliver on that. According to The Nexus Report, they're planning on adding incentives to continue subscribing, though, so it's not like they're not aware of it.
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At this point I don't care what kind of pay model they do with this game, I just want content...
 
And on the subject of adding "incentives" to having a subscription, isn't that what f2p games do when they have optional subs? What the hell is going on with this game?	
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I would imagine that for people with that as a primary motivation, paying for cosmetic items in a cash shop as a F2P player would give you more bang for your buck than subbing, since your money would go straight towards the content you want, and there are certainly more cosmetic items in F2P games with cash shops than P2P games without. How many cosmetic items did SWTOR have before it went F2P?
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Gonna have to agree with Naunet here...customization, costumes, housing, are all a huge thing to me. More does not equal better, either. Where's the sense of accomplishment for having hunted down those costume/housing pieces/mounts, if all I did was buy them from the CS? Then there is little joy in wearing it. You have no idea how many times I've had people ask in F2P "Where'd you get that?!" and I'd tell them the CS...and they'd be incredibly disappointed because they did not have the currency or the cash to get it, abd I was not about to buy it for someone other than my husband. Here I can earn it, everyone has essentially the opportunity to find their pieces and be proud of them. I have forever loathed the typical F2P dye/housing system...one bottle each time, buying them over, and over, and over...being forced to either fork out quite a bit of real money, or spend more time than I'd be spending playing/enjoying the game just to pull together the coin for Cash Shop currency that some other player is way over-charging for. I'd much, much rather pay a monthly sub than have to pay quite a bit extra to get to what I enjoy doing. Even with Sub benefits/discounts. In the F2Ps I have played, if there was a sub option, we took it...but it still lacked. It lacked hard. Either pay a sub -and- cash shop money, or go "free" and end up paying even more in the end...Raiding and PvP are enormously fun, but they aren't what keep me in games...and yes, I know, it wouldn't make a damn of a difference if I left, to the company.
 
Also, yeah...30 bucks a month? I can afford that but...no...gonna have to stick to the monthly or at -least- every two months of new content for that. If my husband joined me playing, that'd be 60 bucks a month, instead of 30...maybe if it were a more established game, or something...idk, I reallllllly enjoy WS but not at that price. That's essentially like buying the game over and over and over and over. Plus that'd probably raise the box price, too.
 
Also, imagine what that'd do to CREDD prices...Ive seen some people say theyd never sell CREDD for anything lower than 15-20+ plat. The highest I've ever seen it was 11p, and no one was buying it at that price, so it went back down to 6-ish. Granted, I will not spend 20 bucks for 6p, I do understand those who balk at the low profit of it. If I'm buying CREDD, it'll be because a good friend needs a sub and for whatever reason isn't up to snuff on it that month. 
Edit: Apparently I'm not allowed to say "s c r a p e" together the coin...it censored the last four letters >.< Reminds me of the time my husband tried to say "Patience, young grasshopper" in PWI and it censored everything but the "gr"	
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			I can't believe this thread even gained traction.I would still play if it went f2p as long as there was a subscription option. I could care less if they stay sub based or go f2pI will not provide any information to back up my position however I have played games such as RIFT and Guild Wars 2 and both are good (each for their own reasons) and neither of them have a sub but do have cash shops and the communities are very good as well as they sort of police theirself.  In my opinion, saying "I'll quit if it goes f2p" is just a narrow minded thing to say.I do not believe it will go f2p though.  They already have a f2p model: CREDD.  Sure, you have to work a lot harder and there are times when the CREDD costs are way too damn high (last I looked, we had our CREDD at a high of 15 plat and there were orders for 11 plat), but it is free and if you have the time to put in the work for plat, you will never pay for your sub.I personally will not have too much opportunity to buy plat due to personal responsibilities but I can't complain.  If I didn't have the money for an MMO, I just wouldn't play.	
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Nope. You would be imagining wrong. I want to be able to play and enjoy the game to get my character looking the way I want it. That is, after all, why I choose to play a game. I do not choose to play a game so that I may dump extra cash into it to instantly obtain a bunch of outfits without playing the game.
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I'm really curious about these incentives... Anything at this point would be guesswork though right? It can't be boom boxes, oh god I hope not.
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I'm sure it'll be more than that, but:
 
 
Something like a boombox a day (and other daily things, like Rift's Patron benefits) on top of long-term incentives (like Rift's Loyalty system) would probably be the way to go (granted, this is what Rift offered subscribers when they introduced a F2P option, so the sheer number of Patron benefits that Rift offers might be overkill for a purely sub-based game).
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Here's one thing I don't understand. Lord of the Rings online (as well as DDO) has a hybrid FTP/Sub system. It works great, the game is fantastic, and they give free players lots of stuff while giving subbed players enough fair advantages that it makes going sub worth it. The only reason I stopped playing it was because I'd already spent six years playing it. I needed something different but the odds are I'll go back to LoTR since I have a lifetime founders sub. 
 
Everyone knocks bad FTP games but it isn't the FTP system that makes them bad. It's because those FTP games are bad games. 	
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Yes I'm sure the extra $15/mo from you will make up for the lost revenue.
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Here's one thing I don't understand. Lord of the Rings online (as well as DDO) has a hybrid FTP/Sub system. It works great, the game is fantastic, and they give free players lots of stuff while giving subbed players enough fair advantages that it makes going sub worth it. The only reason I stopped playing it was because I'd already spent six years playing it. I needed something different but the odds are I'll go back to LoTR since I have a lifetime founders sub. 
 
Everyone knocks bad FTP games but it isn't the FTP system that makes them bad. It's because those FTP games are bad games. 
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I usually prefer to pay for a sub, but at this point I would rather see it going f2p with a reasonable 'plan' and see the game flourish with players (hopefully).
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I like your word choice: Crippling.  Other than blatant P2W (rune slot rerolls crosses that line, IMO) people that object to F2P models object to Grindcore implementations (pay us to make it stop hurting).
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What would be true if there was a content differential, but there isn't.  Both types of payment are only giving you the content the devs see fit to develop.  The only difference is that on a sub-only model, devs are incentivized to make the content, since everyone has access to it.  F2P development focuses on making things and then making you buy them.
 
Really, F2P development turns a game into a giant piece of ad space for the things that are necessary to experience.  The incentive becomes, "How can we get people to buy the things we'll make money on..." rather than, "How can we make the game better so that the subscribers stay, old players return, and new players come in?"  A subscription model lives or dies by long-term development since every single player has the exact same value to the developer, and so they're rewarded based on volume.  The major downfall to the system is that it tends towards that volume, which is why the current population issues are being handled by reducing attunement, RNG, and ultimately throwing more content at us instead of tending towards the more hardcore end of the spectrum.
 
In B2P?  This would be in a box to buy.  In F2P?  Why would you even get rid of the crippling RNG, rune slots, and logistics?  You could make people pay for them, either with a pay-in method or by selling the individual items, like rune slot rerolls and token gear in a store.
 
At least when we have problem, Carbine listens and works on their game for our subscription money.  Carbine can eat the heat for having designed it "wrong" to begin with, or the speed it can get it out there, but they ARE giving us the things we asked for about as fast as they can.  There isn't much in Drop 3 that hasn't been directly asked for by the community, and Carbine's incentive is to give us what we're asking for, since they don't have to divide us into payers and non payers and wonder how much they could fleece us for.  They're paid by the account by the month (essentially, depending on how you view CREDD subscribers).  I'd much rather them try to make the game good for all of us all at once rather than having them see how they could inconvenience some of us enough to pay even more than the 15 dollars we pay now.
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 They are afraid of the word F2P because to them it stays the realm of 12 year old children without cash when in fact F2P is as diverse as the world and the internet itself, F2P players are as diverse and fascinating as the various corners of the planet. 
 
 
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"Pay us to make it stop hurting" is a good summary of most F2P games.
 
If Wildstar goes F2P I predict tons of new items for Elder Gems, and the packages of Elder Gems sold in the cash shop.
 
Want that shiny BiS chestplate? Grind 2 months of elder gems, or buy a pack of 3500 gems for only $29,99!
 
Extra AMP points? Same. Do you want to be able to swap gear with a button? 600 Elder Gems per gear set! Reroll that rune slot? Only 200 Elder Gems!
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Here's one thing I don't understand. Lord of the Rings online (as well as DDO) has a hybrid FTP/Sub system. It works great, the game is fantastic, and they give free players lots of stuff while giving subbed players enough fair advantages that it makes going sub worth it. The only reason I stopped playing it was because I'd already spent six years playing it. I needed something different but the odds are I'll go back to LoTR since I have a lifetime founders sub. 
 
Everyone knocks bad FTP games but it isn't the FTP system that makes them bad. It's because those FTP games are bad games. 
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There is absolutely nothing wrong with that according to Wildstar's current philosophy. 
 
Ultimately, as long as each player has the ability to accesss said content, it doesn't really matter. What is CREDD but an implementation of that? 
 
Do you want platinum? Does your job pay more than what you can farm for? Then outsource it to other players, they get free game time for farming with their free time, you get free platinum for your real money. 
 
Part of the draw of this game was the fact that if a player didn't have enough time to farm but still want to participate, they are essentially paying to have what they needed farmed for them so long as they still are capable of going through the content themselves. It's no different than a lot of people hiring farmers/buying bots to do the grinding so they can use their precious few hours raiding or do what they want. 
 
Pay to Win is when you HAVE to pay to raid or pay to get gear. 
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There is absolutely nothing wrong with that according to Wildstar's current philosophy. 
 
Ultimately, as long as each player has the ability to accesss said content, it doesn't really matter. What is CREDD but an implementation of that? 
 
Do you want platinum? Does your job pay more than what you can farm for? Then outsource it to other players, they get free game time for farming with their free time, you get free platinum for your real money. 
 
Part of the draw of this game was the fact that if a player didn't have enough time to farm but still want to participate, they are essentially paying to have what they needed farmed for them so long as they still are capable of going through the content themselves. It's no different than a lot of people hiring farmers/buying bots to do the grinding so they can use their precious few hours raiding or do what they want. 
 
Pay to Win is when you HAVE to pay to raid or pay to get gear. 
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I'm not really fond of the F2P version of LOTRO, since a lot of core content is locked (quest areas past lvl 30 and traits). It would be like playing WildStar just fine up to level 30 and then finding you couldn't pick up any more quests or put any more points into AMPs unless you bought them from the cash shop.
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You don't have to spend a dime on any of that stuff though. It's not locked you just need to put time into it. Even if you decided to spend  money to unlock stuff quicker you barely have to spend any. Is it grindy sometimes? Sure but you're going to run into that no matter what you do. 
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You are intentionally dense.
 
Of course I mean a raise of the sub fee from $15 to $25 or $30.
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I'm going to assume when you say "dense" you mean efficiently muscular.
 
And we already know you want to raise the sub fee. You already said it.
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After you said this:
 
 
It seemed very much like you in fact did not know.
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Oh, stewardess! I speak sarcasm. He said you'd be the only person left subbing if they doubled the sub fee to $30.
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First of all, people are only nagging in here. Yak-yak-yak! "The EVIL F2P", "Cheap is EVIL!!!!"""!!""! "Us against them! They're EVIL!!!!"
 
Just grow a beard and a couple of ... ;)
F2P is nothing but a different payment system, nothing more, nothing less. It gives you the freedom of choice. It gives a platform of controlled contend. Developers are rolling only stuff out, that will make money. This is stuff the player base want! You are nagging against stuff you want to have. ...Gee, this is paradox!
 
I'm not saying F2P is the better model, it has its flaws, but also does the P2P! 	
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Unplausible statements does not good sarcasm make.
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			Reading between the lines of the last Nexus Report, I'm thinking I should bookmark this thread for future reference.	
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Developers are rolling only stuff out, that will make money. This is stuff the player base want!
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F2p like star wars.. hell no...  B2p like guild wars i can live with that and maybe throw in more money than i normally would for crazy vanity items like western style knickers for my spellslinger... Im not big on any type of model that has restrictions for content especially since ive been putting my cash into this game from the start like everyone else in this forum...last thing i need is for them to tell me all of a sudden you cant do shit after i bought the game unlike the F2p crowed that will be downloading it for free.
 
Id prefer a buy to play model outside of this current one.. since it will still filter out the freeloaders that would normally plague this community if a F2p was introduced.. plus a b2p model would circumvent a pay to win since it would be more based on vanity..credd would just be converted into a gem system like gw2 system... but implementing any type of buy to win would just suck in general..like paying for attunements or rep ect... I think a buy to play model would probably inspire a lot of players that left to return on their own time since there would be no risk involved in playing.
 
The only real issue at the moment is the credd system was designed to prevent any kind of model outside of the sub system.. carbine would have to figure out how to reimbursed the players that have purchased several months of game time through credd.. the only way i can see this changing would be is to convert bought time into gems or what ever was the shop currency...just vanishing all that converted time would be bad for the players that bought months of time on it.	
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carbine would have to figure out how to reimbursed the players that have purchased several months of game time through credd...
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You have clearly never seen Airplane.
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My main point is that you're not likely to be able to get your character looking the way you want unless they add a lot more cosmetic items to the game, which probably won't happen unless there's a cash shop. As it stands now, many of the cosmetic items aren't even available to players unless they've taken advantage of special promotions or gotten lucky with boom boxes. Once you pick a faction and path, 7 entire costume sets are locked to you. Where are all of the outfits you're playing the game for?
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I have had a number of experiences with MMOs that have gone F2P, and a couple that either started out as F2P or were B2P.
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Out of curiosity, which ones?
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Oh, stewardess! I speak sarcasm. He said you'd be the only person left subbing if they doubled the sub fee to $30.
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F2p like star wars.. hell no...  B2p like guild wars i can live with that and maybe throw in more money than i normally would for crazy vanity items like western style knickers for my spellslinger... Im not big on any type of model that has restrictions for content especially since ive been putting my cash into this game from the start like everyone else in this forum...last thing i need is for them to tell me all of a sudden you cant do shit after i bought the game unlike the F2p crowed that will be downloading it for free.
 
Id prefer a buy to play model outside of this current one.. since it will still filter out the freeloaders that would normally plague this community if a F2p was introduced.. plus a b2p model would circumvent a pay to win since it would be more based on vanity..credd would just be converted into a gem system like gw2 system... but implementing any type of buy to win would just suck in general..like paying for attunements or rep ect... I think a buy to play model would probably inspire a lot of players that left to return on their own time since there would be no risk involved in playing.
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Untrue. I've done quite a good job getting my characters to look how I want so far, and I look forward to further releases of various armor models and costume pieces to both create new looks and potentially refine the ones I have.
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My point is that, while you may be satisfied with the choices you have, you're not making a very good case in the defense of cosmetic items being accessible purely through gameplay.
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I have yet to see someone produce objective proof of any Western based AAA MMO engaging in blatant power selling; the best anyone can say is "these guys do this, which makes me uncomfortable; but thousands of other players don't seem to object to it." 
 
Likewise, I have yet to see a singular piece of ignored logic so overwhelmingly powerful as to overcome all doubters to the positives of the F2P model, if you could just get them to pull their fingers out of their ears and make them hear it.
 
And I have yet to see an argument that can breakdown a person's steadfast refusal to play subscription based games.
 
In the end, anyone's objections or support of any particular model of monetization come down to "I don't give a rat's ass what you say: I <A> do like it! <B > don't like it!" (circle the letter that applies to you)
 
On a third party site, a thread like this would draw just as many posts from people who refuse to pay a sub as there are those who threaten to quit if the game goes F2P. There are as many people who toss hundreds of dollars per month at World of Warcraft's cash shop, buying things from mounts to insta-leveled toons, and who would ragequit instantly the second F2P was announced, as there are those who throw the same amount at a free to play game's cash shop who would never pay a subscription, even with a gun to their head. Hell, they'll even use the same reasoning to support their argument for their way of doing things: "I don't want my money to be used to develop content that I'm not interested in."
 
The simple truths here are that MMORPGs need continuous revenue to keep providing their services, and that there is no singular model of monetization that is comfortable to everyone. Regardless of where you stand on this particular debate, there is no "right" and there is no "wrong", there are only shades of feelings. Yes, those icky feelings and emotions. 	
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Uh no. Do you think it's only possible to make costumes out of gear specifically labeled costume or something? And why is your only solution to the "some of these sets are restricted" issue "cash shop"? Why do you think a non-settler should have access to the settler uniform anyway? Why do you think that just because I play for the shinies, I would suddenly be okay with Carbine fleecing me of many times more than I currently spend right now, when I could simply support a P2P game and make as many outfits as I could possibly want all for the sub price?
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I didn't say the *only* solution is "cash shop". My point is that purely sub-based games don't have the variety of costumes that games with cash shops do.
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			No F2p for me either. Everything prior to this post in the cons have been voiced.	
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I strongly prefer a pay to play model for a game like Wildstar. In-fact I resubscribed today simply to prove that point. :)
 
Well. Liking Wildstar and the people behind it helped a bit too.	
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I disagree. WoW, Rift, and TERA had a wide variety of outfits prior to any cash shop. WoW still doesn't really have a costume cash shop - just a few mounts and pets and services. F2P does not mean "more costumes", but it certainly means "more costumes you have to spend real money on".
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I would rather see the servers shut down and set on fire than have it go f2p. 
 
A cash shop with cosmetic items that don't impact game play are fine.	
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A cash shop with cosmetic items that don't impact game play are fine.
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Really, this is but ugly rant against a payment system you didn't understood.
F2P content is only content YOU want. Because only the content you want you would buy. There is no package and everyone is picking the piece of it an let the other stuff lay around.
 
The wrong thing about F2P is, customers want this dirt as content. So, if you want better content and better sollutions, say so and behave properly! Dev's will be forced to react. Because only the content you want to buy gives them money.
 
I am not standing up for F2P, but the truth is, F2P is the more honest way to show your interest about a game and its contents. And by the way, how many Asiagrinder made it in the western World? At least in the EU none is in the toplist. Because the western people don't dig for P2W systems. It simply doesn't work. Please stop complayining about a aspect that can't work in this part of the world.	
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Had a pretty lengthy rant about how i dislike F2P, paywalls, etc. this is the short version.
 
I don't want F2P. 
 
I don't want a cash shop. 
 
I'll pay a higher sub or w/e but no cash shops.	
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And for those of us that consider cosmetic items also be part of game play?
 
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That's fine too. I like just paying a flat rate and getting access to everything without being nickle and dimes to death.
 
I just meant that the cosmetic item shop stuff doesn't bother me because it's not giving anyone an advantage.
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A cash shop for cosmetics is an advantage in the field of cosmetics. Sure, it's not an advantage in the fields of PvE or PvP, but it is still an advantage.
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And how do you define this advantage? Cosmetics are totally subjective, while PvE and PvP stats are providing a measurable advantage. Just because a costume supposed to be "high end", it doesn't make it pretty in everyone's eyes. Hence, not everyone will use it. A stronger PvE weapon is stronger for everyone. And if you don't like how it looks, you can put a nicer skin on it, cause that's why we have costumes. Do you wear clothes on the streets they show on the fashion shows...? Here is your advantage in the field of cosmetics: http://img.izismile.com/img/img3/20100714/640/weird_fashion_640_11.jpg
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Those of you saying that the game would die out due to lack of players if WS went FTP are nuts. FTP brings in hordes of new players. Rift was subs only for a year or so and when they went FTP they had to actually add a bunch of new servers to accommodate the influx of new players. The game population increased SIGNIFICANTLY, and the business model works well for them also without using any kind of pay to win style. Archeage has 4 hour wait time que's to get online it's so busy. FTP definitely brings the people, but it brings a certain crowd that many who prefer to pay a sub consider to be unsavory types. I myself prefer to pay a sub for this very reason...it keeps kids screaming Chuck Norris jokes off the server general chat.
 
I would prefer if WS could stay sub based, but the cold facts are that it will go FTP eventually. It just depends on how long subs and game sales can sustain Carbine for. If the next drop is as awesome as stated then we may have some time still. If it's lackluster I would expect FTP by March IMO.	
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If it's a rare drop, came from a boombox or purchased in the cash shop, and is sold on the AH, it requires the same amount of gameplay from the one who purchases it on the AH. If you have to grind gold to buy the Raidin set or a rare armor drop on the AH, why is that any different from grinding gold to buy something on the AH that someone purchased in the cash shop? It's the same amount of gameplay on your part to grind that gold.
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Those of you saying that the game would die out due to lack of players if WS went FTP are nuts. FTP brings in hordes of new players. Rift was subs only for a year or so and when they went FTP they had to actually add a bunch of new servers to accommodate the influx of new players. The game population increased SIGNIFICANTLY, and the business model works well for them also without using any kind of pay to win style. Archeage has 4 hour wait time que's to get online it's so busy. FTP definitely brings the people, but it brings a certain crowd that many who prefer to pay a sub consider to be unsavory types. I myself prefer to pay a sub for this very reason...it keeps kids screaming Chuck Norris jokes off the server general chat.
 
I would prefer if WS could stay sub based, but the cold facts are that it will go FTP eventually. It just depends on how long subs and game sales can sustain Carbine for. If the next drop is as awesome as stated then we may have some time still. If it's lackluster I would expect FTP by March IMO.
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More players does not equal more revenue, or more profit. It would take a HUGE influx of f2p players to overcome even just 100,000 subscriptions.
 
So. Not happening any time soon.
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@Drebble (and other anti-F2P, etc.), while I completely understand the "get it through the game, earn your stuff" idea you're espousing here, you are again substituting your preferred currency, Time, for other players' preferred currency, Money. Not every player has the former, some instead have plenty of the latter. I don't see where its fair to prefer your currency over theirs. In fact, it's likely in the developers' interest to prefer Money over Time. It seems to me ideal to support both as the best case scenario.
 
If a player purchases an item via the shop, they had to "grind" real life time to get that money to be able to do that. Your effort in game is not diminished by their purchase. Unless they take away your ability to spend your currency (your time) to achieve your goals, I don't see how you are harmed. So long as you can earn anything you want to get in game by spending your time, be it subscription time through creed, gear through adventures/dungeons/and raids, or cosmetic gear through in game currency and drops, then your sense of accomplishment should be intact. If it is damaged by how other players decide to use their time, then the issue is yours, not with the developer or the other players.
 
You should get your accomplishment from the effort you put in. The effort should be its own reward, right? That's what you're saying. The notion that player A takes short cuts shouldn't matter to you, because they're idiots who are missing the point that playing the game is the thing, as far as you're concerned at least. If the shiny at the end is all that matters to you and you're mad that they can just buy what you have to work for, then your issue is with your materialism and the fact that your commitment to effort and gameplay as its own reward is shallow. How they play the game should not matter to you. Your integrity is not effected by it. So long as Carbine doesn't take away your ability to play your way, Cash Shop or no, you should be fine.	
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Whelp as per the usual you're 100% dead wrong. More players = more profit case closed. Take a look at Tera for example, they literally doubled their playerbase in less than a month after going F2P (500k+ new) and reported a huge increase in profits. And that's just Tera, there's a whole boatload of MMOs that saw success from swapping. 
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Enjoy. 
 
http://exilic.com/m/aqb_news/view/WildStar-s-Jeremy-Gaffney-Explains-why-WildStar-isn-t-Free-to-Play
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An opinion piece? From a guy that doesn't even work at CS anymore? Versus cold hard facts?
 
 
Consider me convinced, I'm dead wrong.  :lol:
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He is one of the creators of the genre. He started Turbine. He has more experience than nearly anyone. He knows what he's talking about. Most importantly, he knows numbers that you or I don't have access to.
 
You look like a fool for trying to discredit it.
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LTRO: "In 2010, the NPD Group reported that the game was "the third most played massively multiplayer role-playing game" with Turbine citing their free-to-play model as the reason for the growing subscriber base."
 
"I am once again reminded of the existence of a game by the announcement of an expansion. Dungeons & Dragons Online’s shift to free-to-play years ago has given it enough success to keep quietly humming along"
 
Cool story bro I guess? Granted he left 4 years after the company started...
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You should get your accomplishment from the effort you put in. The effort should be its own reward, right? That's what you're saying. The notion that player A takes short cuts shouldn't matter to you, because they're idiots who are missing the point that playing the game is the thing, as far as you're concerned at least. If the shiny at the end is all that matters to you and you're mad that they can just buy what you have to work for, then your issue is with your materialism and the fact that your commitment to effort and gameplay as its own reward is shallow. How they play the game should not matter to you. Your integrity is not effected by it. So long as Carbine doesn't take away your ability to play your way, Cash Shop or no, you should be fine.
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"given it enough success to keep it humming along" is not exactly a solid business plan. There is no indication of profit or revenue.
 
The facts are its very hard to overcome existing subscription revenue for a free to play game. WildStar has -a lot- of subscribers, indications are an order of magnitude more than LoTRO had when they turned.
 
You can keep trying to make yourself look smart and informed, but it's not going to happen on this topic.
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He is one of the creators of the genre. He started Turbine. He has more experience than nearly anyone. He knows what he's talking about. Most importantly, he knows numbers that you or I don't have access to.
 
You look like a fool for trying to discredit it.
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The facts are its very hard to overcome existing subscription revenue for a free to play game. WildStar has -a lot- of subscribers, indications are an order of magnitude more than LoTRO had when they turned.
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@Drebble, that's correct, I don't care if they buy the million AP sword and walk through content in two days to my thirty. If I/you care about playing, if playing is my/your reward, then I/you don't care how other folks go about it. I/you "Win" by playing the game. In that sense, I/you can not "Pay to Win" even if I/you wanted to, because "Play to Win" is all that works for me/you. I/you am not in a race, I/you do not care if they get there before me/you. The act of getting there is why I'm/you're playing.
 
I intentionally have used this I/you construct to point out that I could be talking about myself or I could be talking about you. If what is of concern is working at it, so to speak, then whether others are working at it should not be of import. The term "shallow" is not an insult directed at you, it is a description of the commitment being shown from the argument against F2P/Cash shop. I say shallow, because the enjoyment of the game is destroyed unless everyone plays exactly as the proposer of the argument sees fit. So play is not the important thing, the thing that defines their enjoyment. Competition, "keeping up with the Jones" is the important thing. That is basic materialism.
 
Also note, I'm not saying the 1000000AP weapon is a good thing™ or that I would want such a thing in game. I like you get my enjoyment, at least partially, out of "working for it." Such an item would negate any challenge and make involvement in the game boring for me personally. However, if someone didn't enjoy working at it and wanted to (IMO) waste their money so they could wave around the "Sword of the ArchAngel Michael" in a game world, then I wouldn't have a problem with the devs handing it to them and letting them go to town... in so far as it didn't screw up the game for other players, i.e. them smiting the world boss every 30 sec, making it impossible for players to enjoy the game their way. We can draw these things out to extremes of silliness with these uber weapons that would never be implemented by a rational designer for hyperbole's sake, but there's no value in that and it doesn't refute the point: so long as how they play doesn't effect me/you personally, I/you should be fine.	
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			The more I read, the more I'm coming around to thinking that P2P vs F2P is yet another example of the Exclusivity vs Accessibility argument pervading MMORPGs - and likely gaming itself.	
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Except if it's a rare drop in the world/a dungeon/whatever, I can just go get it myself by playing the game.
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The more I read, the more I'm coming around to thinking that P2P vs F2P is yet another example of the Exclusivity vs Accessibility argument pervading MMORPGs - and likely gaming itself.
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It is not numerically measurable, but the feeling of reward/accomplishment is the same if put on a cash shop.
 
"Yes! I got the +700 assault power chestplate I wanted from this boss!"  becomes a lot more "meh" if it can be bought for $1.99 on the shop, do you agree? The sense of accomplishment and reward is diminshed.
 
The same principle is true for cosmetics items. Finally completing a nice costume set or housing build is a rewarding feeling, and becomes a lot more "meh" if all those items are a few clicks and dollars away.
 
Sure, not everyone feels this way, as can be seen in this thread. But not everyone cares about other aspects (like PvP) either. This is no reason to spoil the fun for those people with a cash shop.
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Personally, I have issues with the unavoidable problems involved in fragmenting the population between paying and not paying players.
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