Report 1378

Report #1378
Skillset: Skill: CosmicRaiding
 Org: Ninjakari Status: Completed Aug 2015
Furies' Decision:
Solution 2.
Problem: As per report 1374, passive power for the Communes had led to
justifications for a plethora of raiding differences in a lot of other
territories. This report wants to focus on, specifically, the Cosmic planes and
how they are much easier to raid than specifically Commune Avatars - and also
address some rather ridiculous imbalances (specifically, Elohara/Luciphage being
hidden behind a one-time, time-sensitive portal).
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #1: Extend the no-foreign terrain effect that elemental
 and ethereal territorys have to cosmic planes. Create
 an archway somewhere in each Cosmic plane that is a
 permanent rift to the Elemental archway. Make
 transversing through archways not affected by
 distortion (This include nexus distort as well as
 planar distort). This solution would also make the
 elemental archways immune to distort as well.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #2: Make the portal that spawns after 4 Supernals/Demon
 Lords are killed permanent until another
 Supernal/Demon Lord is raised. Remove the condition
 that once raiders enter, the portal is closed once
 they are killed. This will allow an extended prep
 time for the final battle, as well as giving raiders
 more opportunities with they wipe on the first raid.
 It will also eliminate mistakes from a lone person
 entering, getting instantly killed, and the portal
 closing, as what happened in the last Supernal raid.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #3: Turn any special exits that separates a supermob from
 the rest of the plane into normal exits. Add a room
 and a proper exit or Elohara/Luciphage after the
 other four Demon Lords or Supernals have been slain.
 These exits should remain until at least one other
 Supernal/Demon Lord has been re-raised.
Player Comments:
---[Lerad on 8/14 @ 13:33 writes]:
This report was made after discussion on the envoy channels about Elohara's
portal closing after a few minutes of killing four other Supernals. And I
thought special exits were bad. I also fully support this report, with a
preference for solution 3, but solution 2 is perfectly fine as well. Also I
agree that it would make no sense to make Prime communes less raidable and then
after that continue to allow foreign melding on cosmic planes when ethereal org
territories do not. Lastly, I am personally of the opinion that something more
can be done to make the Avatars vs DL/Supernal vs Fleshpot/Spheres have less
disparity in strength as well. Perhaps make it so that Avatars do not spawn any
helping creatures when they are attacked, and/or let DLs/Supernals spawn more
angels or demons when they are being attacked, to address the difference in
their strengths? Similarly, maybe make more spheres/fleshpots defend each other?
---[Siam on 8/14 @ 15:14 writes]:
What if each supernal/DL/fleshpot/sphere/avatar death causes a plane-wide
explosion ala-Iklara that damages everyone(or just enemies) considerably. This
will allow a window for defenders to re-organize and prevent raiders from
snowballing easily
---[Siam on 8/14 @ 15:16 writes]:
Regarding Lerad's idea re: helpers, perhaps we should standardize the strength
and the afflictions that helpers do. We could even create a different mob for it
instead of the generic Daughter/Lady/etc. Once we have established the helpers,
we can use that as a baseline in determining how many should be spawned per
smob.
---[Lerad on 8/14 @ 15:58 writes]:
I don't think we need to make the Iklara explosion thing. We're aiming for a
degree of fairness between orgs, not trying to stop raids.
---[Enyalida on 8/14 @ 20:41 writes]:
I'm pretty sure that commune avatars aren't actually any more difficult to raid
in the ways that this report handles. Their big advantage is that they have
equivalent power packed into a more focused package - they hit as hard as ~1.6
DLs each, which tips them into being more difficult. One thing worth looking
into is lifedrain effects. Recent troubles with unkillable smobs really started
during the general overhaul of upper end mobs, which beefed up all high tier
mobs - including smobs. It may be that the proportionally larger health pools
are disproportionately magnifying Avatar's difficulty.
---[Enyalida on 8/14 @ 20:42 writes]:
In addition, communes have a variety of skills that almost only see use during
Avatar raids, that are geared towards defending against that one kind of raid.
For instance, Shamanism's Land only de facto works on Ethereal, and only is
particularly effective in owned org territory, and (as it does not hinder
walkinng back to the casting spot as reality does) is mostly useful for thinning
a group about to walk onto an Avatar. The same goes for several of the terrain-
limited shamanism effects and other guild abilities like pathtwist.
---[Enyalida on 8/14 @ 20:44 writes]:
That said, I'm not opposed to solutions 2 and 3. My point there was that the
'no-foreign terrain' part of solution 1 is not really the problem with raiding
forests and doesn't necessarily need to be extended everywhere. What I would
like is some kind of warning that a plane is being set up to attack before the
smob itself starts getting attacked. What sucks is walking up to see what's
going on... straight into a fully prepped demesne.
---[Lerad on 8/15 @ 00:16 writes]:
Ah, removing the no-foreign meld effect from ethereal instead of extending it to
Cosmic may be a good alternative, yes, I agree. I would support either, as well.
Having an alert to the org whose cosmic/ethereal is being foreign-melded will be
a compromise.
---[Shuyin on 8/15 @ 01:20 writes]:
I disagree with the premise of this report. No thanks. While it is admirable to
attempt to address the differences between planes when it comes to raiding, I
feel that by equalizing everything, it will remove too much of the flavor
between cities and communes. As someone with one of the most...depth of
knowledge when it comes to raiding, I feel that the only change that is needed
here is Solution 2 -without- solution 1. Fix the portal, that's all. -However-,
I would like to point out that the inherent strength/inconsistency of the
distort power is what is currently making raiding cosmic too hard. I feel that
such efforts to balance raids should start with severely downgrading and/or even
deleting the distort power (will need to balance out *bixes of course) before we
even consider redesigning entire areas and adding archways. I already intend to
address distort in next month's report, but seeing as this is already here, I'll
be able to explain if anyone has questions.
---[Lerad on 8/15 @ 01:38 writes]:
I didn't take part in the last two smob raids, so all my arguments are based
off, at best, second-hand experience. I suggested to Kierstin to put in the no-
foreign terrain and archway changes based on the forum posts a few weeks back -
if Shuyin says he doesn't think it's a needed change, I have no valid argument
against it. I do agree with him and Kierstin that solution 2 (with or without
solution 1) at least needs to be put in though. As far as I heard, the portal to
Elohara closed in minutes, cutting off the smob raid without a second chance,
and that Luciphage operates similarly. I don't think that's very fair to the
raiding team, so at the very least, solution 2 (or 3) without solution 1 should
be strongly considered.
---[Kierstin on 8/15 @ 12:09 writes]:
I would have to say that I would trust Shuyin's raiding experience over mine and
with that, I have edited solution 2 and 3 to be independent solutions of
solution 1. This will address just the issue with the portal, and we can save
the issues with distort for another month, and another report.
---[Enyalida on 8/15 @ 17:45 writes]:
@Lerad I'm not sure how you read that out of my comments, which made the exact
opposite point: That the melding thing is not the prime reason that Avatar raids
are harder, it's a red herring.
---[Lerad on 8/16 @ 00:48 writes]:
Ah, apologies. Your last comment said that you would like to see "warning that a
plane is being set up..." because otherwise it would "suck... walking up
straight into a fully prepared demesne", and since ethereal forests can't be
melded, I thought you were suggesting removing the no-foreign terrain effect for
the warning in return. At any rate, Shuyin's comment that redesigning areas
should be taken as an option only after first trying to nerf distort and see
what happens is something I think is probably for the best.
---[Enyalida on 8/16 @ 23:42 writes]:
I was talking about defenders being unaware there is a raid in progress until
after their enemies are fully entrenched. This used to be a bigger problem when
shrines could be raised on cosmic, but still remains an issue. I don't think the
solution is to necessarily make those planes unmeldable, but rather that some
kind of advanced warning should come into play before full entrenchment.
---[Synkarin on 8/17 @ 14:29 writes]:
Agree with Shuyin, this is pretty far-reaching and not really all that necessary
---[Tanin on 8/17 @ 21:19 writes]:
Either solution 2 or 3 would be fine with me
---[Celina on 8/18 @ 01:22 writes]:
I'm going to have to cite my own expansive raiding experience and disagree with
Shuyin here. I support solution 1. While I understand the desire to not water
down the planes to all mirror eachother (which is why I am not a huge fan of 2
and 3 though I don't think they are necessarily bad suggestions) the VERY LEAST
we can do is do something to keep the cosmic/elemental planes from being
unraidable perma fortresses because of how rifts and distort work. I've never
been a fan of future reports, we've definitely see that not pan out so well, and
the discrepency between raiding ethereal vs cosmic/elemental has always spawned
from the archway being far more accessible than the rifts. I think the enormous
advantages cosmic has over ethereal should be addressed sooner rather than
later.
---[Shuyin on 8/18 @ 01:29 writes]:
I'm just saying that I'd rather nerf distort than add archways FYI! It's a dumb
mechanic whose sheer existence invalidates a vast majority of skills in the game
for little to no price
---[Synkarin on 8/18 @ 18:12 writes]:
Archways on ethereal has always been a giant cry-wolf mechanic that really isn't
the same. Ships on Cosmic are effectively the same as archways, if not more so
because fewer things stop you from entering an aethership than entering a
archway. Yes, you have to take the time to whistle a ship, and yes, every once
in a long while, someone will jinsunjolt the ship, but it doesn't happen that
often. Ships are the same as archways. Not being able to meld ethereal is a much
stronger discrepancy than archways is. Flux is stronger than liveforest (because
it stacks) but making mountains out of the archway molehill is disingenous. I'm
not scared to raid cosmic because I can't escape. I'm scared to raid cosmic
because of flux.
---[Celina on 8/20 @ 00:13 writes]:
Eh, I don't own a whistle. I don't want to fly a ship any time I want to raid a
plane. Raiding cosmic should not require an artifact whistle or the desire to
learn how to fly around aetherspace, because neither of those things have
anything to do with raiding, and really only apply to cities and not communes. I
think you know me well enough to know I'm never disingenuous. I'm not opposed to
a distort/flux report either instead of this, I just don't like the "we'll fix
it later rather than now," idea.
---[Synkarin on 8/20 @ 01:56 writes]:
You don't have to own a whistle, or fly a ship each and every time. There are
options around this, but regardless, you're unwillingness to partake in all your
options isn't what we balance around. And it absolutely does have to do with
raiding when you are citing archways as some huge discrepancy that they aren't.
As noted, melding capabilities and nexus powers play far bigger roles in the
discrepancy game than the archways do because Cosmic has an equivalent escape
plan that's being conviently ignored. The supermob portal is the only solution I
really support here
---[Enyalida on 8/27 @ 19:53 writes]:
@Synkarin Untrue. Ships are not equivalent to arcchways for several reasons.
First, having to fly a ship up to begin an attack (nevermind how you get back
down) heavily discourages casual or hit-and-run raids. They still happen, but
it's a good deal harder for most players to gain access to the plane. It also
makes it harder for members of a partially killed group to rejoin or reinforce
their fellow assailants on the plane, as they either need to personally own a
cubix or wait for someone who does to pick them up. You can just walk right back
to a forest fight group! If anything is disingenuous, its minimizing a pretty
fundamental difference in planar access here.
---[Synkarin on 8/29 @ 01:20 writes]:
@Enyalida - actually, your comments are false 1) You don't need to fly up a ship
each and every time you want to casual raid (which i actually said in the
previous comment), you can leave a ship parked there for that express purpose,
meaning you can have an escape route every time you wish. People already do
this. 2) Sure archways are a little easier to get back into an etereal plane,
but distort blocks only rifts on that plane, not the other side of them, so you
can use rifts, or you can tesserect, in addition to using cubixes etc. Not a
huge deal. Blowing up a minimal difference as 'pretty fundamental' is absurd and
downplaying the actual issues. The only actual argument against ships vs
archways is that people who aren't demigod's can't ascend off a ship, but
majority of casual raiders will be demi and be able to ascend or will die
raiding (like Ollie or Baelfyre).
---[Synkarin on 8/29 @ 15:39 writes]:
By the way, just change distort to not block rifts (which is how it worked
previously) and poof, discrepancy solved.