125181-why-not-just-lower-subscription-price

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			Just a thought. Please share opinions.	
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			I think people who are turned off by the subscription still wouldn't pay if it was lowered. 	
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I remember this used to be the argument against sub. Not, "make it free and I'll play your game I'm not really enjoying", but "you make way too much money from us considering expenses and profits, drop your gd sub cost". (The latter aimed at Blizzard, of course.)
 
I don't think it'll help much though. There's too much ideology mixed up in this business now.	
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I remember this used to be the argument against sub. Not, "make it free and I'll play your game I'm not really enjoying", but "you make way too much money from us considering expenses and profits, drop your gd sub cost". (The latter aimed at Blizzard, of course.)
 
I don't think it'll help much though. There's too much ideology mixed up in this business now.
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			If you can afford a computer that can handle games like Wildstar, $15/month is peanuts.	
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I don't think it would help, really.
 
As it stands, 15$/month is relatively inexpensive considering the hours of entertainment one may derive from the game.
 
Most of those who complain about subscription fees probably have an aversion to subscription-based models in general, regardless of asking price. 
 
Basically, it's an ideological thing, as others have already mentioned.	
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How can the price get any lower than free?	
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			Even if it was just 99 cents a month people would complain.	
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Lower the price?
 
How about we account for inflation and thank the stars above that they haven't adjusted the market price of sub based games according to inflation?	
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			Itunes did that with music......did it stop illegal DL ? nope, those wanting free will never pay for anything 	
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			I personally wouldn't be opposed to a variable sub rate. I don't earn tons of money, but i personally would be more then happy to pay £10 - £15 a month instead of £9.I think offering people the chance to pay more to help keep the game sub based is a good idea.	
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			It's mostly the people who are villing to pay vs the ones who are not villing to pay. And those who are villing to pay are fine with 15 dollar. I don't think you'd get enough people to sub if you lowered it to 10 dollars to make it more profitable. Either sub at around 15 or f2p. 	
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Either sub at around 15 or f2p. 
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			The jump between free and $0.01 is the biggest one there is.	
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The jump between free and $0.01 is the biggest one there is.
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Because its already cheap? As I have said before, and many before me, if you can not afford less than a £10 a month, you have bigger problems.
 
From a company view, I am pretty sure the sub price has been calculated on a affordable:profit gaining ratio.	
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I'm old - I was old in Vanilla Wow.  Just as then, I still believe that something good is worth paying for.  IT infrastructure isn't free.  The circuits to get us to their servers aren't free.  The developers who keep giving us more stuff to do, they aren't free either.  In fact my favorite Monster Truck Voice Over Guy wasn't free when he recorded "That's how we do it on Nexus, Cupcake!"
 
I happily pay my $15 a month.  And I shamelessly buy CREDD like it's going out of style - because I'm old and I don't want to farm anymore.
 
Quality = Subscription Fees.	
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Just a thought. Please share opinions.
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so as it is ususlly calculated .50 cents a day is too much?
 
if you sub for 3 or 6 months the sub does go lower by the way
 
id rather play what it is at.	
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			I'm not an adult yet and I don't have a credit card but I pay for my sub with my own money, I'm sure I'm not the only one. I might not have that much mmo experience but what I've noticed is that the rudest most obnoxious players I've met have been adults. Not saying that younger players aren't annoying/impatient but the same can be said of many older players. It's really unfair to claim It's only 12-13 year olds that are compaining.	
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I'm not an adult yet and I don't have a credit card but I pay for my sub with my own money, I'm sure I'm not the only one. I might not have that much mmo experience but what I've noticed is that the rudest most obnoxious players I've met have been adults  :angry: Not saying that younger players aren't annoying/impatient but the same can be said of many older players. It's really unfair to claim It's only 12-13 year olds that are compaining.
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 I'm not an adult yet and I don't have a credit card but I pay for my sub with my own money, I'm sure I'm not the only one. I might not have that much mmo experience but what I've noticed is that the rudest most obnoxious players I've met have been adults  :angry: Not saying that younger players aren't annoying/impatient but the same can be said of many older players. It's really unfair to claim It's only 12-13 year olds that are compaining.
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You're right that it's unfair, but don't forget, that's how it comes across.
I do not have any direct demographic data available, but I'm sure that the majority of people asking for a F2P/B2P model are younger  people without credit cards.
And yes, for many it's hard to accept that people don't have a credit card. I know how hard it is in some parts of the world to even get one, compared to other parts where people have multiple of them or only use credit cards.
 
 
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			So lets say speculatively.. the population at launch had easily close to 2million playing for the first 2 months. And lets say currently the population is closer to 150 thousand currently in comparison..  You all who defend the sub model believe that its justified when currently the population is a tiny fraction of what allowed carbine to stay staffed? You do realise that a ton of workers from Carbine were let go never to be seen again?  You do realize that your tiny money per month is not enough to keep content rolling in at the rate a triple aaa title needs to attract a greater number of players?  When the change does happen.. I wonder how many here will be as loyal as they purport to be despite the fact the change will have saved this game.	
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Just as a quick reminder, discussion is great, and encouraged, but our forums are not the place to fling insults and about what sorts of people enjoy certain subscription methods over another. There's always a way to word things so it gets your point across but doesn't name call a group of people. 
 
Thank you
- Team WildStar	
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So lets say speculatively.. the population at launch had easily close to 2million playing for the first 2 months. And lets say currently the population is closer to 150 thousand currently in comparison..  You all who defend the sub model believe that its justified when currently the population is a tiny fraction of what allowed carbine to stay staffed? You do realise that a ton of workers from Carbine were let go never to be seen again?  You do realize that your tiny money per month is not enough to keep content rolling in at the rate a triple aaa title needs to attract a greater number of players?  When the change does happen.. I wonder how many here will be as loyal as they purport to be despite the fact the change will have saved this game.
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They can't be satisfied with breaking even and Ncsoft won't be satisfied with them just breaking even either. MMo's are designed to make a good profit.
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			They can't be satisfied with breaking even and Ncsoft won't be satisfied with them just breaking even either. MMo's are designed to make a good profit. 	
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I'm not an adult yet and I don't have a credit card but I pay for my sub with my own money, I'm sure I'm not the only one. I might not have that much mmo experience but what I've noticed is that the rudest most obnoxious players I've met have been adults. Not saying that younger players aren't annoying/impatient but the same can be said of many older players. It's really unfair to claim It's only 12-13 year olds that are compaining.
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Well personally speaking, I quit playing because I didn't want to pay for a game I played maybe once a week.  Buy to Play or even Free to Play isn't about getting away playing a game absolutely free.  Its about not having a collar and leash tied around your neck tethering you to one game.  Its the psychology and principle.I also don't see the point of paying for access to the type of content I was doing 11 years ago in WoW.
 
I really don't want to get started on my ideas for Paid Subscription Games and how it in turn waters down content and player experience.
 
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I don't think the game had 2 million players... I don't even think a million. Of course, this is all just speculation.But as usual, players leave too quickly. They are too "leet" to play the game for fun, and if they can't race to the top in easy mode, then it must be bad... it couldn't be them.Also, we don't know the current subscription level... Speculation again but 150k might be a little optimistic, but even if it's half of that, it's doing better than breaking even, using some basic assumptions (150 full time employees, $100k average cost per employee to the company).It's fine, and Carbine are doing everything they can, I am sure, to find and tweak the game to get more folks to try it.
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What we do know is that several extra servers had to be opened to accommodate the influx of players at launch.  Now we are down to two big ones as a response to the insane player departure.
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thats not the case, the change to megaservers didnt  was a response  to player departure but a better way to handle new incomers without needing to add more hardware everytime, its like putting a power of 1000 W in your pc in despite you only need 500, someday you will add other stuff and dont need to change your power supply
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thats not the case, the change to megaservers didnt  was a response  to player departure but a better way to handle new incomers without needing to add more hardware ...
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I don't think the game had 2 million players... I don't even think a million. Of course, this is all just speculation.
 
But as usual, players leave too quickly. They are too "leet" to play the game for fun, and if they can't race to the top in easy mode, then it must be bad... it couldn't be them.
 
Also, we don't know the current subscription level... Speculation again but 150k might be a little optimistic, but even if it's half of that, it's doing better than breaking even, using some basic assumptions (150 full time employees, $100k average cost per employee to the company).
 
It's fine, and Carbine are doing everything they can, I am sure, to find and tweak the game to get more folks to try it.
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Yeah, no paid DLC crap please.
This aint EA	
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And you believe that?
 
Seriously?
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			I'm still amazed at how many people come on the forums and say they don't want to pay for the game.	
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Do you really believe that?  I mean yeah what you said is another boon to mega servers.
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I'm still amazed at how many people come on the forums and say they don't want to pay for the game.
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I'm still amazed at how many people come on the forums and say they don't want to pay for the game.
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I actually want to pay for the game.  I actually have paid for the game.  But I want to be able to pay for the game on my own terms.  I want to know that the 10 dollars I spent on Cosmetic options or the 5 dollars I spent on In Game Currency because I haven't played in a while is directly benefiting my play experience in the now.  I don't want to gamble 15 dollars that I'll be playing enough to warrant that purchase in the next 30 days.  
 
I'd sub again right now if I knew that the game would capture my attention like I thought it would when I was excited to be included in the Beta.
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			Personally given how things are I'm surprised the sub fees haven't gotten higher than 15...	
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I'm still amazed that people feel "chained" or "leashed" or "collared" because of $15 a month. That is such an alien concept to me, I can't even begin to understand it.
 
I mean, I pay money for Netflix, but I don't feel "chained" into watching Netflix every day or even every week. I pay for HBO, but I don't watch anything except Game of Thrones on Sundays, but I certainly don't feel "leashed" to watch HBO every free minute of my life.
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so as it is ususlly calculated .50 cents a day is too much?
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I own a Renaissance outfit I can only largely wear on a few set days of the year.  Buying Wildstar's deluxe box and subscribing for a year hasn't even come close to the price I paid for the handmade leather boots alone.
 
And as much as I like Son of Sandlar, they aren't going to update my boot content next month.
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Why stop at a day?  Let's take it down to hours: 2.04 cents.  Wow that's even more affordable looking.  I play roughly 50 hours/week or roughly 220 hours per month.  Admittedly that's a lot so I guess I'm getting some good value out of the sub... so let's see.  220*.0204 = US$4.49.  Uhm, huh, when's Carbine switching to hourly billing?
 
The "50 cents" argument is ridiculous because the smallest granularity you can pay for is a month.  The argument presumes that people are playing 7 days a week.  While that may have been true in the EQ and Vanilla WoW days, the MMO segment has attracted a much larger population whose free time is not exclusively devoted to a single activity.
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Of course, they also aren't going to charge you a monthly fee to be allowed to put them on your feet, either. You bought them once, you paid for them in full, they are now yours to use and enjoy without further restriction forever.
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So here is a question...
 
Would people prefer to be charged per hour and billed at he end of the month an amount that'd be equal to 15 USD a month while still offering the current pay models? I'd have nothing against that and if I recall some games do it this way in the eastern markets.(or something similar)
 
Of course they'd probably be a bit more as they'd most likely round up the amount per hour instead of down.
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Until the sole wears out, which is directly related to my wear.  My Renaissance boots may last due to lack of wear, but the boots I wear daily wear out in six months to a year.
 
Nothing lasts forever.  At the very least, I might drop 15 dollars a month on this game, but the game will constantly update.  Nobody's re-soling my boots every six months, and I pay more for them than I'll pay for this game in a year.
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2. There's plenty of games out there that have B2P/F2P options and yet continue to have additional development of content, and games that don't have additional content stagnate pretty quickly regardless of whether the game is F2P/B2P/sub/whatever.
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As a VERY strong person against B2P/F2P, the problem i see with this is your comparing the real meaty content that everyone has access to and has no hooks to the cash shop with content that is pretty poor, buggy, fluffy and has hooks to the cash shop.
 
There is a massive difference between the 2 and I'd rather provide a sub to get better more consistent content then pay less and get more fluff and less real content.
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As someone who recently resubbed I thank those of you who spent the last 6-10 months funding the paid beta. The game now is as it should have been last May. But I do not think that a year's worth of subscription fees have generated a year's worth of new content.
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I personally just left a game that recently went B2P due to lack of content, and other reasons.  (Other reasons being the amount and type of player that gravitate toward F2P/B2P games.  I actually prefer a subscription based game.  A pay gate keeps some of the riffraff out of my game play.  Not all, but a good majority of it.
 
Just my 2cents.	
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I've been playing for a year and not run out of stuff to do. So I'm a happy camper.
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Anyway. I suppose my post was a bit provocative. My point is that the main argument of "you'll get more content with a sub" isn't always true. I can point to games with different payment models that release as much or more content than games with sub models. So what is presented as a given isn't really the case.
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Man these forum gremlins are nuts today! NCSoft and their regular maintenance...
 
Anyway. I suppose my post was a bit provocative. My point is that the main argument of "you'll get more content with a sub" isn't always true. I can point to games with different payment models that release as much or more content than games with sub models. So what is presented as a given isn't really the case.
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As a VERY strong person against B2P/F2P, the problem i see with this is your comparing the real meaty content that everyone has access to and has no hooks to the cash shop with content that is pretty poor, buggy, fluffy and has hooks to the cash shop.
 
There is a massive difference between the 2 and I'd rather provide a sub to get better more consistent content then pay less and get more fluff and less real content.
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I personally just left a game that recently went B2P due to lack of content, and other reasons.  (Other reasons being the amount and type of player that gravitate toward F2P/B2P games.  I actually prefer a subscription based game.  A pay gate keeps some of the riffraff out of my game play.  Not all, but a good majority of it.
 
Just my 2cents.
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			As I have stated already.. Elder Scrolls is doing just fine with B2p. Its far more active , far more stable community now. Folks are having fun. And one of the greatest things I don't see is players who have been subbing from day 1.. whining or bashing anyone who just started for the first time. Everyone has been extremely nice in game and in the forums. IF wildstar does make that change.. I hope all the Loyalists step-up and show how truly loyal they really are and emulate that positive behavior.  	
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B2P is a paygate, is it not? I mean there are plenty of people who won't play a game unless they don't have to pay anything, but I don't think people who play GW2 or ESO (and don't sub) have a freeloader mentality just because they prefer to pay once and then piecemeal for the content they want, rather than for monthly access to a game.
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Noticed you on Reddit. /r/mmorpg ;) But how many of that player base is toxic? How many will drop the game and leave guilds with empty rosters? How many wont spend a single penny?
 
My point here is if you don't have a committed player base, you can't plan or run anything. The uncertainty can destroy guilds just as much as lack of people can.
 
So along side P2P keeping some people out of the game, it adds commitment to the players. While you may put a negative spin on this, i see this as a necessity, especially in a raid heavy game like this one.
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Noticed you on Reddit. /r/mmorpg ;)
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WS population wise isn't doing that well and i think the greatest reason is that many feel they aren't getting their money's worth. They expect something better from a p2p game but there are f2p/b2p out there that are better.
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Well "you just don't get it." Isn't a very good basis for discussion.
 
There are plenty of things I understand based on experiences that most people haven't had, but that doesn't mean I can't try to phrase it in a way someone else will relate to.	
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Well "you just don't get it." Isn't a very good basis for discussion.
 
There are plenty of things I understand based on experiences that most people haven't had, but that doesn't mean I can't try to phrase it in a way someone else will relate to.
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Was that to me and if so where did i say that?
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Yes. "You either understand or you don't."
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What i meant was there is 2 clear distinct camps of thought. There is no in between or middle ground. And i find it interesting that people fail to look at each side of the discussions point of view and instead focus on their own point of view.
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			So, to understand this, you lot are arguing for the sake of it now?	
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You're new to the Internet then?
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So, to understand this, you lot are arguing for the sake of it now?
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I dabble my toes every so often in it.
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Please name me one? Because i've yet to find a MMO that offers better then what Wildstar produces.
 
 
Maybe its because i'm married with kids and older, but having commitment to a cause is EXTREMELY important. If your role is a guild leader or a main tank, your guild is relying upon you and if you remove that commitment, where is the organisation within the guild structure?
I always love debating with people about this because you either understand or you don't and I've yet to understand why people struggle to get this concept. Its like the Holy Trinity discussions, for me without roles you have chaos and GW2 showed that off perfectly.
Subscription payments keep you invested in the game, in the guild and in your role, it makes the decision to be an idiot to others harder, it makes the decision to just drop the game at a whim harder. All these are prevalent in F2P/B2P and for the most part are substantially lessened in P2P.
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for me any P2P game ive done ive played more than f2p... with f2p im like eh its not costing me anything and i come and go from themon a whim no reason to stick around more than say a few weeks at a time.
 
Any Sub based game ive felt a reason to play, is it because of the money possibly but i aslo ENJOY it more because im paying a sub to. a game i WANT to play. if i dont want to play it i wont sub it.
 
ESO i tried it. it looked awesome but too many bugs and i left.. it went B2P , hey i have it already well guess what even with improvements and seeing a population within 2 weeks i left.
 
Neverwinter i love it its a f2p but the AD and Zen stuff bugged me and the go,d in game meant nothing so i dont play it even though im a HUGE D&D fan and would love it if it felt more like a sub based game instead of these lockboxes dropping with a CHANCE and awesome stuff that cost real money to open.
 
btw i have over 50 lockboxes still locked they drop like candy in there
 
oh and yes ESO has a sub BUT there isnt much of a difference to the free and sub player. not much in their store like SWTOR is like a ton of cosmetic stuff and housing stuff with their coins.	
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And the illusion that they think it's cheaper when it's F2P
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 But how many of that player base is toxic? How many will drop the game and leave guilds with empty rosters? How many wont spend a single penny?
These are things i know you can't answer, but they are the massive issues with any B2P/F2P.
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Exactly.
Unless one doesn't mind a wall dividing players that pay a ton of extra from those that can't, F2P is an illusion. Sure, it's free to play, but at what extent?
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p2p also have a pay wall, maybe the biggest of them all ;)
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P2P is not a wall between those who pay.
It's a wall between those who play and those who don't.
Those who don't are not exactly in disadvantage in game, are they? :P
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f2p and b2p is also not a wall for those who pay but the good thing is not all games are p2w though.
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I think every F2P/B2P has elements of P2W in them. They are small in some games, but in many they are significant.
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Depends in what you see as p2w, i'm for example curious what the p2w element is in gw2?
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Man you really want to hate on this games sub model. Its quite interesting you stick around.
Anyway, IMO GW2 offers a mild pay to win with the £11 unlimited use mining picks, loggings axes and sickles. Where people who don't pay that £11 have to rebuy their items after they wear out.
GW2 is on the lower end of the P2W scale, granted they do their cash shop well.
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You are just asuming that again and please don't make it personal.
 
Sorry to say it but that pickage is not a p2w item, it's a 1000 times cheaper to buy the in game pickage and that has 50 charges i believe and there are quite a few vendors around the map where you can teleport to to buy a new pickage if you need them. So you don't have a gain or competetive edge over other players by having this pickage unless you highly value the incovence of buying new tools once a month.
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Pay 2 Win is paying to get a distinct advantage over others.
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Pay 2 Win is paying to get a distinct advantage over others. I said it was a mild P2W item and it is. You pay £11 to get an advantage over others.
 
Its pretty straight forward.
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That's REALLY stretching it. Considering that you get tons of crafting materials just from playing the game without ever harvesting anything, and the rock bottom in game price of harvesting tools if you do want to harvest... I'd say calling it "mild P2W" is like calling the holes my dogs dig in the yard "mild Grand Canyons."
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Its all about perspective. ;)
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Well my dogs are pleased with their handiwork I know that much.
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Pay 2 Win is paying to get a distinct advantage over others. I said it was a mild P2W item and it is. You pay £11 to get an advantage over others.
 
Its pretty straight forward.
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People aren't buying them to gain an advantage, they're buying them for the convenience. The number of times you'd have to use an infinite gathering tool to break even on the cost is astounding. It's the same thing with the Copper-Fed Salvage-o-matic.
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