Report 1640

Special Report #1640
Skillset: Kata Skill: Sprongma
 Org: Nekotai Status: Rejected Dec 2007
Furies' Decision:
No longer relevant
Problem: The flat bleed provided by Sprongma is arguably too high at the moment.
(Currently: Number of poisons gives bleed, sclaing as such: 1 - 100, 2 -
200, 3 - 300, 4 - 500, 5 - 700, 6+ - 1000) When used in conjunction at the
surge stances, especially along the bleed route, it can give a burst of bleed so
high that it immediately meets the finalsting requirements from zero. See logs
on forums for details. This is not desirable. This report aims to resolve this
by tightening the sprongma bleed potential (increasing the lower end, but
decreasing the higher end), or alternatively, by simply lowering the bleed
amount given - but compensating by lowering the stance restriction, so it can be
used earlier.
Solution #1: THIS REPORT IS NO LONGER VALID, AS THE NUMBERS OF SPRONGMA HAVE
 BEEN CHANGED WITH THE BATCH OF HEMORRHAGING CHANGES. I'M KEEPING
 THE SOLUTIONS HERE FOR RECORD PURPOSES. TO EMPAHSIZE, THESE
 SOLUTIONS ARE ALL BASED ON OLD SPRONGMA NUMBERS - THE CURRENT
 SPRONGMA HAS LOWER NUMBERS THAN BOTH THE SOLUTIONS BELOW.
Solution #2: Lowering the bleed given, but lowering the stance requirement: 1
 - 100, 2 - 200, 3 - 300, 4 - 450, 5 - 600, 6+ - 800.
 Make it usable from center onwards and also give its bonus effect
 without the need for the angkhai affliction (because angkhai is
 only usable from surge). However, when used without the correct
 angkhai form, the bleed it provides should be half of the numbers
 above.
Solution #3: Lowering the bleed given, but compensate by giving it a damage
 component: 1 - 100, 2 - 200, 3 - 300, 4 - 450, 5 - 600,
 6+ - 800. In addition, also do damage equivalent to the bleed
 given, but the stance restrictions etc remains.
Player Comments:
---[Wobou on 3/20 @ 14:12 writes]:
It's fairly easy to make a form that causes 1 guaranteed poison aff and up to 2
more from rub before sprongma so we should consider that with these numbers.
Based on that I would not support solution 1 as it buffs the amount of bleed at
3 poisons (which is easily achievable) by 200. Solution 2 is workable although
I'm not understanding the clause you're adding. Sprongma should do no additional
bleeding if you don't have an affliction given by angkhai based on my read of
the AB. I would also not support solution 3 because I was able to kill against
unoptimal but common curing just by spamming a sprongma form and charybdon, it
does not need additional vital pressure in my opinion.
---[Wobou on 3/21 @ 00:22 writes]:
Addendum to my last comment. I haven't tested this but if sprongma also counts
relapsing as a poison aff (which it should) then the form I'm describing above
would actually deliver two poison affs (relapsing from angkhai + another poison
aff arm move) with up to 2 more poisons via rubs. So before parry/other defenses
you're talking about 2-4 poisons in the form itself.
---[Lerad on 3/21 @ 00:45 writes]:
Thanks for the comments. You're right that the lower ranges of the sprongma
requirements are very easily reached, so they shouldn't be tightened upwards. In
which case, solution 1 is out of the question. I've reworked solution 2 a little
to better explain what the clause means (as you said you're not understanding
it). At the same time, based on your feedback, I've also changed what the clause
does. Do take a look and see if you understand it better with the new phrasing.
The idea behind solution 3 is to prevent sprongma from creating so much flat
bleed by changing it onto health damage instead. I wanted to do a percentage
thing, but I took into consideration your previous objections and went with just
pure damage. I'll lower the proposed damage numbers.
---[Wobou on 3/28 @ 05:35 writes]:
My apologies for the delay in commenting back on this. I think solution 2 is
okay, solution 3 I think is too strong in that you're now causing twice the
vital pressure (even though I understand that the bleeding is lowered).
---[Aeldra on 3/28 @ 07:57 writes]:
I probably would feel most okay with solution 3 of the solutions given. I'm not
sure how I feel about solution 2.
---[Lerad on 3/29 @ 06:03 writes]:
I wanted to further restrict the afflictions that sprongma can trigger from, but
with report 1650 in the works, I think that nerf can wait for more logs first.
If 1650 goes through, it will greatly impact the ability of a Nekotai to hit
these triggering affs.
---[Shuyin on 3/31 @ 01:24 writes]:
2 or 3 is ok, pref 2
---[Lerad on 3/31 @ 14:40 writes]:
This report is no longer valid, as the numbers of sprongma have been changed
with the batch of hemorrhaging changes.
---[Shedrin on 4/11 @ 18:05 writes]:
I think this report is still valid. Thanks to Raeri for this log:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0bawnr5kne90inb/monkd1.html?dl=0 - I'm still not
really used to all the monk lines and effects, but there's a few things I think
going on here. One, the high affliction output lead into sprongma doing a lot of
extra bleeding. Two, Tarken started on Surge stance, which seems counter to the
main drawback of stances. Three, the nekotai killer stance bonus is extra bleed.
Four - non optimal curing, but I think the two hits into insta with slight
assistance is too much regardless.
---[Shuyin on 4/18 @ 04:06 writes]:
Given the log above, solution 3 seems good here
---[Falaeron on 4/18 @ 22:21 writes]:
The problem identified is that Nekotai is doing too much bleed. Why do we need
to buff it in other respects if we just need to lower the bleeding. In fact,
both of the solutions presented are actually buffs. With the 50% bleeding given
in changelog 721 and the proposed solutions with adjusted numbers, you give up
100 bleeding at 6 affs, so instead of doing 750+ total bleeding you do 650+.
However, solution 2 means that you do more bleeding overall as you can use this
earlier and solution 3 means that instead of 500 bleeding, you do 400 bleeding
AND 400 more damage? The whole point of hemorrhaging was that we can lower all
bleeding and bruising so that they are actually manageable as hemorrhaging acts
as a long-term build-up much like warrior wounds.
---[Lerad on 4/19 @ 12:47 writes]:
As mentioned in solution 1 of this report, and in my 31 March comment, this
report is no longer valid since the hemorrhaging changes have been put in. As a
note, during that change, sprongma's bleed had already been halved during the
hemorrhaging changes. This report remains as a record of the discussion and
solutions for reference purposes, and should not be implemented. I've updated
solution 1 to be in all caps to reflect that.
---[Falaeron on 4/19 @ 20:03 writes]:
And what Raeri's log that Shedrin posted, and our experience fighting against
Nekotai is that the bleeding they give is still way too high.
---[Lerad on 4/20 @ 01:41 writes]:
Yes, I've seen the log, and I have been mulling over it. As in my previous forum
post about sprongma, the guiding principle for sprongma is that the flat bleed
it gives, alone, should not be enough to reach instakill levels immediately. As
a vitals pressure ability, as long as that requirement is met, I think it should
give significant vitals pressure, given its other requirements. One reason why
I'm slow to address the new log is that I've been thinking about how exactly to
tweak sprongma. As a matter of fact, the current sprongma numbers are actually
very nicely balanced for 1v1 - Tarken did 4 poison affs in his first form in
Raeri's log, sprongma would have given only 250 bleed there. In his second form,
he gave 1 poison aff (that was already on the target from the previous form). In
a 1v1, that would have been 250+250 over 2 forms, max, assuming the target
doesn't even cure between forms. I think that is more than reasonable. The
unreasonable part is that sprongma proc'd the max tier, 500 bleed, for both
forms thanks to the affliction output from the meld and 2 other people hitting.
Even then, 500+500 in a group scenario isn't that scary. On the other hand, the
flat bleed from other sources (normal hits and the mantekarr stance) is what
(more than) doubled that amount. Sprongma, as the vitals pressure ability, is
giving less flat bleed than the other general sources of bleed common to all
monks. This definitely needs to be tackled, but how exactly to do so is not so
clear-cut. I'm, obviously, invested in making sure sprongma is still usable in
1v1s, but the teamfight aspect cannot be ignored. Yes, the deadline for reports
and comments is coming, but I have no intention of leaving it unresolved without
at least a suggestion from me - flat out reducing the bleed will, however, will
hardly be the best way to resolve this.