Report 1637

Special Report #1637
Skillset: Kata Skill: BleedingMonks
 Org: Shofangi Status: Completed Apr 2017
Furies' Decision:
Solution 3
Problem: Currently all monks are heavily built on bleeding which is difficult to
balance because each player has a varying ability to cure bleeding and when one
cannot clot off all bleeding (and heal through the mana drain that causes) the
resultant bleed punishes the same vitals that would be used to cure more
bleeding so the effect snowballs. This creates an issue where a monk either does
enough bleeding to dent someone with 12k max mana which means they absolutely
nuke someone with 8k max mana, or monks are unable to kill anyone with a mana
rune. This is not new issue with bleeding but now monks are the only archetype
that have bleeding as their primary kill condition. This report seeks to create
a method by which a monk can eventually build lethal levels of bleeding allowing
solo viability, while also allowing the drop of upfront bleeding which will make
monks in groups more bareable.
Solution #1: Add a 'deep bleeding' mechanic, perhaps called hemorrhaging.
 Hemorrhaging is a numerical status that cures itself over time, a
 target cannot clot their bruising or bleeding below their
 hemorrhaging level. Note that when hitting this clot limit you
 should not be charged mana for attempting it. Building
 hemorrhaging should require targetting a certain body part
 (probably gut) so that parry becomes a factor. The route to
 building hemorrhaging should not overlap greatly with forms that
 do great up front bleeding or great afflicting.
Solution #2: Add a 'deep bleeding' mechanic, perhaps called hemorrhaging that
 acts as a burst pool of bleeding. This would also cure over time
 as in solution 1 but would have no other effect other than
 through being activated by monk spec abilities, curing all
 hemorrhaging but causing an appropriate amount of
 bleeding/bruising based on the guild. This creates a burst window
 where the monk must either achieve/build to a kill or reset.
Player Comments:
---[Wobou on 3/19 @ 07:17 writes]:
I'm putting this up to generate discussion because it's something that impacts
monks greatly and the game as whole. This long report is a reduction of a much
longer document which you can find here: http://pastebin.com/gCNHQ7vj This
report only features two subsolutions from the first solution in that document
because this solution is the only one that does not cause a need to re-evaluate
other bleeding guilds and bleeding mobs. If there is consensus for something
else I'll remake this report in that direction.
---[Lerad on 3/19 @ 11:54 writes]:
Eh. I'm not too sure of the premise myself. Because bleeding is a snowballing
mechanic, there is simply no max mana level that can become completely immune to
bleed - on theory, at least. What I personally felt we need to do is to ensure
that the flat, upfront bleed does not simply decimate huge amounts of
immediately - but allow monks to multiply off the bleed they have already built,
to keep going higher (lower flat bleed, put in more bleed multipliers where
there are problems etc). I mean, I'm not opposed to making a new mechanic that
imposes a bleeding-floor that builds up over time, but do remember that allowing
bleed to tick on health is a very painful thing to happen. It'll be very potent
vitals pressure. Alternatively, the burst version is also interesting. I'm just
not 100% sure we want to rework bleeding mechanics entirely like this. I think
lower mana people should face a disadvantage against bleeds, as long as we
balance at a reasonable mana level.
---[Wobou on 3/19 @ 17:41 writes]:
In response to your last statement I think the best way I could rewrite my
problem statement in one sentence is: there is no reasonable level to balance
bleed around. If our bleeding is so heavy that we can build to killing levels
solo then we'll be insane in groups. If our bleeding is reasonable in groups it
means we probably can't build solo. Bleed is only a snowball mechanic if you can
actually build mana loss, and that is not guaranteed for any given amount of
bleed on any given player. For example if the mana used to cure bleeding can be
entirely absorbed by sparkleberry, you're not building bleeding and there is no
snowball. It's true that we can balance around the top tier and make bleeding
levels so high that no one can absorb it but that will nuke lower mana players
more quickly. I agree that there isn't inherently a problem with lower mana
folks having a disadvantage, the problem is it changes the kill time pretty
drastically. I think in both of these solutions that high mana targets still
have have an advantage against bleeding, especially sol. 2. In the case of sol 1
it's true that the advantage would be nullified if the monk only built
hemorrhaging, but since I envision this path being relatively light on
afflictions and raw bleeding that's still an advantage because it means the monk
had to choose a suboptimal path to kill you. I don't think minimum bleeding
could possibly be worse vital pressure than what monks are capable of dishing
out now. The more I think about it the more I am against bleeding multipliers
based on current bleeding. Bleeding that has been built up is already
snowballing, snowballing that even further seems harder to balance.
---[Lerad on 3/20 @ 01:41 writes]:
I think this report and my report about multipliers is very connected, yes. I
think you're mistaking something as well: bleed that becomes "left-over" does
not have to be because the target has run out of mana. Nekotai specifically has
always functioned on a bleed snowball in the past via vessels - the more it
builds, the more bleed there is, even if the target's mana is still high, which
leads to more vessels (when the target needs to sip mana), which leads to more
snowball etc. This is the old Nekotai bleed snowball. Currently, Nekotai bleed
snowball is based off haemophilia. The Nekotai vessels pressure has dropped
significantly from the past, so it has been replaced with haemophilia to enable
the target to still have bleed "left-over" even when their mana is high, and
then to snowball from this state. The reasonable balance I'm talking about
should be mostly on the flat bleed - limiting how much flat bleed a class can
put out in a short period of time: without properly using haemophilia (or
vessels) to snowball, the flat bleed shouldn't be pressuring mana significantly
at the targeted level of mana. Say, a demigod with 3 levels in manabuff. This
means anyone with lower mana than that will find the bleed will overcome them
without needing to be snowballed, but anyone that is higher will take longer to
snowball. But at the end of the day, it must still be possible. This is why
multipliers are integral - to Nekotai at least. I'm not sure about the other
monks. But some way of temporarily preventing bleed from being fully clotted
(ie. your solution 1) will STILL need to be accompanied by bleed multipliers,
otherwise, it will never snowball enough to hit the higher mana targets. As for
finding the reasonable "balanced" level of mana for your flat bleed. Nekotai is
sort of balanced at this point in time around 8k to 9k mana. If you have less
mana than that, our flat bleed puts up a lot of pressure on your mana pool.
Higher, and we have to work harder. I don't intend to change how this works - I
---[Lerad on 3/20 @ 01:42 writes]:
I don't intend to change how this works - I feel that this is a reasonable
level.
---[Shedrin on 3/21 @ 02:05 writes]:
I like this approach a lot, and I think it moves bleed/bruise into something
much less binary and able to be built around. I could see this being applied to
bleeding in general (though we'd have to look at each bleed guild) as well. Of
the two, I like Solution 2 more, as a guaranteed tic of bleed, or especially
bruising (as it can fire much more) can be pretty powerful.
---[Shedrin on 3/21 @ 02:06 writes]:
I would then suggest having the hemorrhaging count for the various bleed/bruise
requirements in monk specs, and from there numbers can be adjusted as needed.
---[Wobou on 3/26 @ 16:50 writes]:
Here is a more detailed proposal that combines elements of both of these
solutions (although mostly solution 1): http://pastebin.com/gCgMDpqL
---[Shedrin on 3/27 @ 03:39 writes]:
I support the expanded proposal Wobou has in that pastebin. We went over the
numbers, it leads to a similar kill time as a 2h warrior 1v1, and should still
hopefully provide enough levers for tweaking the balance and interesting
gameplay.
---[Shedrin on 3/28 @ 02:09 writes]:
We were able to get a test version of Wobou's ideas. Here's a log of him hitting
me and building hemorhaging: https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/-pKB9c4-
---[Shedrin on 3/28 @ 02:10 writes]:
Numbers are able to be tweaked of course (I think they need a slight buff), and
there's also the idea of giving bonus hemorrhaging for stacking certain
afflictions (different per spec). This would also include diminishing returns
for groups and a general bleed/bruise nerf and other possible misc changes.
Wobou can hopefully explain this all further.
---[Shedrin on 3/28 @ 02:19 writes]:
Being hit by two people, showing the diminishing returns (numbers still in
flux): https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/6dwqPU_K. Ignore my bad resists.
---[Wobou on 3/28 @ 04:45 writes]:
The biggest issue with this idea as it stands is how it should be built up.
Currently the most ideal offense for building hemorrhaging as I suggested is
very boring, plain attacks and kicks to the gut. The only dynamism that comes
into play is if gut is parried and if so dealing with that either by threatening
with afflictions or clearing parry either with afflictions or the special monk
moves that clear parry. My current favorite idea for dealing with this would be
to reward hemorrhaging for sticking certain somewhat unpopular affs
(healthleech, luminosity, pox, sickening) ice is more difficult because ice affs
overall are stronger on average than these other affs but I think you could
reward for affs like crushedchest and collapsedlung without too much of an
issue. I think it's important that the aff not be hindering in itself so that
you are not rewarded for additional hinder by building towards a kill. One thing
to note with hemorrhaging as a whole is it devalues haemotox which opens up the
poisons and balances that monks can go for a fair bit, and I'm also hoping that
concurrent paralysis curing is chosen to prevent the optimal strategy for a dust
reward to be poisoning with niricol and mantakaya at all times.
---[Anelissa on 3/28 @ 21:12 writes]:
Ok, theres a lot in this whole thread, but after viewing all the pastebins I
think I have a better feel of what your trying to do. I do agree Wobou, that
there is an issue with bleed and bruise. I do have some issues with the proposed
solutions. I'm going to just comment on your last pastebin of the revised skill.
The biggest issue I have is that this is a pretty hefty change that is being
requested at the same time as other important monk changes. One of the recurring
themes I see is that your looking to have the armed hemorrhaging actions to
focus a specific body part (the gut is what you've suggested multiple times),
but with the 100% parry report you also have pending, this can cause heavy
complications for your base method. You did mention to include the parry removal
skill for all the monk specs (like tahtetso have) but then again, if your 100%
parry report goes through, then it's pretty much taking everyone back to the ol'
tahtetso double hemi days of protecting the arms to hope to avoid that aff we're
going to be spamming to be useful. If you're going to go through the trouble to
restrict the hemo to one body part to give parry a chance, what's the point when
we all have a skill to bypass parry that can easily be done with a boosted
knockdown and a stun? In terms of your numbers, I see that if I'm doing regular
affs, I'm barely outpacing their passive curing (70 cured per 10s, afflicting 75
every 10.5s), so I'll essentially be regulated to whatever arm and kick actions
they decide to replace, I'm assuming this mechanic won't be gated behind stances
so it will have to replace one of my base skill effects) which means that I'm
essentially trading any hindering ability in order to actually stack the
mechanic (at 150 per 10.5s, healing at 70 per 10s). So at this rate of no
hindering affs and 50 hemo every 10s, I'm spending 2 minutes to build ~600 hemo
which isn't enough to kill for insta (since bleeding+hemo don't stack) but
-might- be enough to setup an insta by bleed if we "activate" it,
---[Anelissa on 3/28 @ 21:13 writes]:
But this will essentially just lead to the target clotting it all away once the
hemo is lifted (which essentially put's us where we are now). This is all of
course assuming I am not being hindered or parried. If your parry report goes
through, then parry will be a large factor. If they decide to parry 100 gut, now
I'm having to throw in my parry bypass form every couple of forms, which further
brings down my hemo totals. As an aside, my parry bypass is only available at
stance 3, so if we're going to gate a major mechanic behind a single parryable
area, that would need to be adjusted to be allowed at at least twist, preferably
base. This sort of offense essentially throws away any hindering I would
normally be able to do, so my target will be able to pretty much have free reign
over me if this is the particular kill method I am focusing (and this method,
taking such a long time to achieve would need to be a focused goal from the
start of the fight). The only real thing I have to give me a decent chance of
hindering while focusing on the hemo mechanic is manatakaya/niricol, otherwise
I'm going to have to sacrifice more hemo in order to hinder my target briefly.
Aff stacking won't really be an option since every action I switch from the hemo
method to hinder will lead to lower hemo totals, and possibly lead to me being
nearly even overall. In regards to your last comment about rewarding hemo for
sticking unpopular affs, while I'm sure this was not a complete list, the issue
I have with that is I don't do any of those affs, and the only way I would be
able to do some of them is with odd poison combinations. I do not feel
comfortable being reliant on poisons to receive this reward, and I also don't
really feel comfortable reworking the tahtetso skillset to include those affs in
my kit. You also mentioned that Ice is a bit more difficult, which is true. You
mentioned crushedchest and collapsedlung being viable affs without causing much
of an impact, but the issue there is I have 4 ways to give cru
---[Anelissa on 3/28 @ 21:14 writes]:
I have 4 ways to give crushedchest and collapsedlung (1 from stance bonus, 1 on
a twist stance kick, 1 on a stance 3 arm action, and 1 on a stance 4 arm action)
so I'll essentially just be reaping the hemo benefits from just using my current
ice stack form (and depending on the numbers of the bonus in question, it's
quite possible to be way more viable than using the actual hemo only forms) will
also providing decent curing denial and hindering, At this point the system
turns from something to help try to balance monks, to essentially just toning
down their initial bleeding, and giving monks a surefire way to kill targets at
higher mana pools if they stay too long. Finally, I think this entire mechanic
goes against the initial vision the admin had when redesigning monks, which were
to be heavy afflictors. This is essentially taking away from that entirely by
forcing us to focus on a third mechanic that completely dismisses this premise.
While I do think this is a valiant attempt, and I do appreciate all the effort
you and Shedrin put into it, I don't think this mechanic would be the right
answer, in it's current proposal, and especially if some of these regular
reports and special reports go through. I would like to request, if this
mechanic is considered, please please please allow us some time on the test
server to test and balance it properly before rolling it live, because this is
going to be a huge change in how monks as a whole function, and I think that
warrants some feedback from the community before implementing.
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