109300-you-promised-hard-core-you-actually-delivered-tedium-page-2

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Does not prevent NPC from jumping from underground on Caravan member and one-shotting it.
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I played Ragnarok Online for several years. I know what real "grind" is. I enjoyed every minute of my time playing it. I'm absolutely not against most grinds.
 
And yes, if were being intellectually honest, then attunement is per definition tedious. There's nothing particularly exciting about it except for finally being able to raid at the end. It's just going through the motions.
 
I can't say I would mind going back to some of the older concepts if MMO-dom. Like just grinding out EXP, farming repeatables, or farming that one mob for that exceedingly rare item that it drops that I want. But lets not conflate what WS is versus what old school MMO's are. WS is a modern MMO, while some of the things it does are specifically aiming to be more old school(hello attunement), most of the rest of it is just as themepark and modern as anything else being put on the market.
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Cool I still play RO (iRO with renewal). 
 
But lets be honest; RO doesn't have any real attunement ( a single quest in most cases) and there is no reason for it; content in RO isn't intended to be tremendously difficult (and it isn't). I love the game, but not because of its difficulty.
 
Now in MMO world, less than a week is in no way shape or form 'tedious'. FFXI was 'themepark', as was EQ. Both great hardcore games. Speaking of which, wanna talk atunement lets talk EQ eh? holy mother of preposterous atunement batman.
 
honestly, Atunement was fun IMO, and it made me do some pretty cool / challenging stuff. I solo'd the elemental, and while maybe not Hardcore TM I imagine a lot of folks had a good struggle there (i can still remember watching little aurin run into balls of fire and get blown off the tower :) ) My rep was already maxed.. i guess? thats tedious, but I don't really feel too sorry for anyone who hasn't at least mostly maxed their rep by atunement time... just doing the quests gets you to almost full. The vet adventures / dungeons are hard but with a close group they are bearable; andthey are technically puggable (but really, make friends and run them as a group). The mob kills / quests inbetween were fun and were a bit of a challenge; the WB's were ok (though some are still bugged :( )
 
 
There are definitely some things I would consider tedious (e.g. post 50 ability enhances); though I do like their intentional rarity, they are very much a tedious affair. But atunement? Not even close.  
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ok lets just break up the so called "tedious" attunement
 
Step 1: Get 50Takes under 2 days played time. Piece of cake compared to other MMO's
 
Step 2: 150 Elder GemsThe Elder Gem Cap of 140 is stupid and its just a waste of one week if you get 50 at the beginning of a week.
 
Step 3: Fire Elemental
 
Fun. 10min
 
Step 4: 32000 rep
 
Usless to put it here and usless overall. For new players that first need to learn the adventures and dungeons its fine, they'll get the rep while getting used to endgame mechanics. For lvlin an alt its just useless.
 
Step 5: The Heist
 
Fun. 10min
 
Step 6: Silver Adv.
 
Crimelords 30min
Malgrave 50min
Siege 30min
WotW 20min
Overall: 2hours 10min without queues -> easy because its pretty hard to fail silver on adventures
 
Step 7: Mechtime
 
10-15min. easy.
 
Step 8: Silver dungeons
 
40min STL
40min KEL
45min SC
75min SSM
3 hours 20min but tbh its a lot faster. If you did it before the fixes kel and sc were a joke. now they are harder but ssm is easy now with about 50min a run.
Do it once and do it right.
 
Step 9: Slug
 
Soloable or just get a healer.
 
Step 10: Flight
 
Yawn.
 
Step 11: Worldbosses
 
Every worldboss takes about 15min so about 3-4 hours maybe a bit more due to travelling.
 
 
I made the "tedious" stuff red. Not so sure about Worldbosses because you can just 5man most of them
Discuss	
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http://irowiki.org/wiki/Rachel_Sanctuary_Quest
Wants to have word with you
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I played Ragnarok Online for several years. I know what real "grind" is. I enjoyed every minute of my time playing it. I'm absolutely not against most grinds.
 
And yes, if were being intellectually honest, then attunement is per definition tedious. There's nothing particularly exciting about it except for finally being able to raid at the end. It's just going through the motions.
 
I can't say I would mind going back to some of the older concepts if MMO-dom. Like just grinding out EXP, farming repeatables, or farming that one mob for that exceedingly rare item that it drops that I want. But lets not conflate what WS is versus what old school MMO's are. WS is a modern MMO, while some of the things it does are specifically aiming to be more old school(hello attunement), most of the rest of it is just as themepark and modern as anything else being put on the market.
 
 
 
 
Yes. The attunement process is not necessarily exciting for me. It's dull and monotonous. It's just going through the motions essentially just because. It's one thing to do that with friends or a guild to have some fun, it's entirely different to have to run it because the game says so. But let's continue to make assumptions, shall we?
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Cool I still play RO (iRO with renewal). 
 
But lets be honest; RO doesn't have any real attunement ( a single quest in most cases) and there is no reason for it; content in RO isn't intended to be tremendously difficult (and it isn't). I love the game, but not because of its difficulty.
 
Now in MMO world, less than a week is in no way shape or form 'tedious'. FFXI was 'themepark', as was EQ. Both great hardcore games. Speaking of which, wanna talk atunement lets talk EQ eh? holy mother of preposterous atunement batman.
 
honestly, Atunement was fun IMO, and it made me do some pretty cool / challenging stuff. I solo'd the elemental, and while maybe not Hardcore TM I imagine a lot of folks had a good struggle there (i can still remember watching little aurin run into balls of fire and get blown off the tower :) ) My rep was already maxed.. i guess? thats tedious, but I don't really feel too sorry for anyone who hasn't at least mostly maxed their rep by atunement time... just doing the quests gets you to almost full. The vet adventures / dungeons are hard but with a close group they are bearable; andthey are technically puggable (but really, make friends and run them as a group). The mob kills / quests inbetween were fun and were a bit of a challenge; the WB's were ok (though some are still bugged :( )
 
 
There are definitely some things I would consider tedious (e.g. post 50 ability enhances); though I do like their intentional rarity, they are very much a tedious affair. But atunement? Not even close.  
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ok lets just break up the so called "tedious" attunement
 
Step 1: Get 50
 
Takes under 2 days played time. Piece of cake compared to other MMO's
 
Step 2: 150 Elder Gems
 
The Elder Gem Cap of 140 is stupid and its just a waste of one week if you get 50 at the beginning of a week.
 
Step 3: Fire Elemental
 
Fun. 10min
 
Step 4: 32000 rep
 
Usless to put it here and usless overall. For new players that first need to learn the adventures and dungeons its fine, they'll get the rep while getting used to endgame mechanics. For lvlin an alt its just useless.
 
Step 5: The Heist
 
Fun. 10min
 
Step 6: Silver Adv.
 
Crimelords 30min
Malgrave 50min
Siege 30min
WotW 20min
Overall: 2hours 10min without queues -> easy because its pretty hard to fail silver on adventures
 
Step 7: Mechtime
 
10-15min. easy.
 
Step 8: Silver dungeons
 
40min STL
40min KEL
45min SC
75min SSM
3 hours 20min but tbh its a lot faster. If you did it before the fixes kel and sc were a joke. now they are harder but ssm is easy now with about 50min a run.
Do it once and do it right.
 
Step 9: Slug
 
Soloable or just get a healer.
 
Step 10: Flight
 
Yawn.
 
Step 11: Worldbosses
 
Every worldboss takes about 15min so about 3-4 hours maybe a bit more due to travelling.
 
 
I made the "tedious" stuff red. Not so sure about Worldbosses because you can just 5man most of them
Discuss
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I have very fond memories of chilling just inside Payon dungeon way back in the day. Lots of fun there, as well as grinding out seals or stuff in the christmas town-dungeon-thing. Or heal bombing on an acolyte to level. :D
 
Attunements can be fun, they can do all the things that some people around here suggest it does. I just haven't found this particular one fun/interesting or much of a 'teaching experience' as they have claimed. Therefore to me, it's tedious and boring. The rep is definitely one of the most tedious spots of the attunement. I don't like Ellevar, and I went with CrimIsle/Deradune because I found it dreary. Went back and powered through the quests and got the hell out as soon as I could. Didn't even max the faction rep cause I hate the zone so much(though not as much as wilderrun).
 
Slightly off topic here, but reading over various attunement and content threads the past couple days has got me thinking about group content, especially in regards to some other games I've played, as admittedly, I just haven't done a lot of group content, and all of it was without guilds/friends for one reason or another. That is: "Is this content fun on it's own, or is it fun because I'm running it with guild/friends?" To that I have mixed answers depending on the content. Some were definitely fun on their own, others were definitely made better because I was kickin' it with my guild in vent. I very much believe that doing the attunement with some buddies could skew peoples idea of how engaging it is or isn't objectively(which is difficult, because it's a mostly subjective answer in the first place). But I guess I'm rambling now.
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Well I've got to be honest then, I can't comment on the rep because I'm a completionist, and have maxed it before I even started attuning with levelling quests. But I can see where that portion would be tedious if you hadn't done all the quests up to that point and had to grind mobs or dailies or go redo quests.
 
I hate crimson badlands , but I like Northern wastes alot.. but that is a personal thing.
 
I found *most* of the atunement process fun/ or at lesat a learning experience. It took me a few tries before I stopped getting my chua rear blown off the elementals tower, and I actually enjoyed it once I had completed it. I was done with rep already, so maybe that helped it feel less tedious for me? The Adventures and dungeons are what they are; and i think they are good fun with friends, but YMMV. The only real tedious part I would say would be the Rep... which like I said, I honeslty can't comment on. The Elder points are quick to get, just have to wait to turn them in for your last few if you start atunement immediately after hitting 50, but that's not tedious so much as just waiting. 
 
The WB's I find pretty easy; They are doable in most cases pretty fast with a 4-5 man; soloable if you wan't to spend a long time on each. I liked the quests in between; The Heist was AWESOME imo.. loved sneaking into the 
 other factions museum on their mothership 
... I mean, I suppose we just have different opinions on it. That's cool. I personally really enjoyed it, but YMMV.
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I have very fond memories of chilling just inside Payon dungeon way back in the day. Lots of fun there, as well as grinding out seals or stuff in the christmas town-dungeon-thing. Or heal bombing on an acolyte to level. :D
 
Attunements can be fun, they can do all the things that some people around here suggest it does. I just haven't found this particular one fun/interesting or much of a 'teaching experience' as they have claimed. Therefore to me, it's tedious and boring. The rep is definitely one of the most tedious spots of the attunement. I don't like Ellevar, and I went with CrimIsle/Deradune because I found it dreary. Went back and powered through the quests and got the hell out as soon as I could. Didn't even max the faction rep cause I hate the zone so much(though not as much as wilderrun).
 
Slightly off topic here, but reading over various attunement and content threads the past couple days has got me thinking about group content, especially in regards to some other games I've played, as admittedly, I just haven't done a lot of group content, and all of it was without guilds/friends for one reason or another. That is: "Is this content fun on it's own, or is it fun because I'm running it with guild/friends?" To that I have mixed answers depending on the content. Some were definitely fun on their own, others were definitely made better because I was kickin' it with my guild in vent. I very much believe that doing the attunement with some buddies could skew peoples idea of how engaging it is or isn't objectively(which is difficult, because it's a mostly subjective answer in the first place). But I guess I'm rambling now.
 
edit:
 
 
 
The combat in WildStar is fun. In that, the devs have nailed what was one of the main things they have set out to do. But most of the content I've found boring so far, or at the very least not terribly exciting. I haven't raided yet, so I can't comment on that - but I can count on one hand how many times I've thought to myself "Hey, this is fun/really exciting". STL the first time I ran that, and immediately after the first Drusera quest, that one quest in Deradune where the old hoverboard physics are turned on and your movement speed gets turned up to 11. There are a few more scattered about here and there, but overall I'm just not terribly drawn in by the content that I've experience thus far. And to make me do it again - yes. I find it boring and tedious to mull through it to get to the meat and bones of the end game: raiding.
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Gotcha, now I at least have a better understanding of what you're getting at. I don't feel that way, but I understand what you're saying a lot better now. From a couple of your other comments it sounds like you're not a huge of attunement processes in general, either (meaning, in general, neither am I), but I am finding this one quite fun. I really enjoy the adventures and the dungeons and I've liked the little side quests and stuff, have found it meshes well enough with the world story. Each to their own and I appreciate you explaining (which is more than most others have done beyond 'omgzor it's just tedious'). 
 
So, I do have a question, of course - would you improve the process or simply remove it? Not interested in details, just interested in your perspective.
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I have two 50's on two separate servers, both in guilds of roughly 30ish members, all mmo vets.
 
Leadership of both guilds have basically come to the same conclusion: we will never attain consistent raiding status. Why? Simple answer, attunement. It's not hard core, it's the definition of tedium. As a guild we have to look forward to never ending runs of the same content. And this content isn't hard core, it's just plain tedious. Whomever designed Malgrave Trail needs to be taken out and shot. And pugging these things is for the purely sado masochist.
 
Then, after you've spent all that time getting your 20 ready to raid you lose someone for whatever reason and you get to start the whole process all over again, oh joy.
 
This isn't a hard core end game, it's a never ending treadmill of getting everyone ready.
 
Love the game play, love the classes and group dynamics, but if you don't do something about this end game hamster wheel you're going to suicide your own game.
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I love these talks about the difference between 'hardcore' and 'casual' gamers.  A friend of mine played Candy Crush, a casual game, and got to level 300-something I think.  Does that make her 'hardcore'?
 
Can't put a digital definition onto an analog world and have it fit all the time.	
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 A friend of mine played Candy Crush, a casual game, and got to level 300-something I think.  Does that make her 'hardcore'?
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			^ ROFLMBO... omg, I seriously need to drink and swallow before I browse new posts... I seriously almost gave my screen a fresh-guzzle Mt. Dew spray-wash. :lol:	
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Cause Eve is anything like this game?  No, I want hardcore WoW back as this game was promised to be.  So how about you go and play Hello Kitty! Island Adventure since it seems all you want is a King MMO.
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			wow just looks so boring and slooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow :D hilarious	
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I think MMO forums are pretty much the only spot on Earth where no-lifers get to look down on people having jobs and families by calling them casual. 
 
Which is why they are so attracted to"hardcore" games: the only thing that does not fail in their life.
 
We Casuals deserve to have a little bit of fun in a good game too, you don't need to drive us off to WoW or whatever just because we can't play 6-12 hours a day *shudder*	
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i call myself hardcore and don't fail at my life
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Ok.
 
A day has 24 hours, how long do you work, how much time do you spend with friends & families? How much time do you spend playing?	
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ok lets just break up the so called "tedious" attunement
 
Step 1: Get 50
 
Takes under 2 days played time. Piece of cake compared to other MMO's
 
Step 2: 150 Elder Gems
 
The Elder Gem Cap of 140 is stupid and its just a waste of one week if you get 50 at the beginning of a week.
 
Step 3: Fire Elemental
 
Fun. 10min
 
Step 4: 32000 rep
 
Usless to put it here and usless overall. For new players that first need to learn the adventures and dungeons its fine, they'll get the rep while getting used to endgame mechanics. For lvlin an alt its just useless.
 
Step 5: The Heist
 
Fun. 10min
 
Step 6: Silver Adv.
 
Crimelords 30min
Malgrave 50min
Siege 30min
WotW 20min
Overall: 2hours 10min without queues -> easy because its pretty hard to fail silver on adventures
 
Step 7: Mechtime
 
10-15min. easy.
 
Step 8: Silver dungeons
 
40min STL
40min KEL
45min SC
75min SSM
3 hours 20min but tbh its a lot faster. If you did it before the fixes kel and sc were a joke. now they are harder but ssm is easy now with about 50min a run.
Do it once and do it right.
 
Step 9: Slug
 
Soloable or just get a healer.
 
Step 10: Flight
 
Yawn.
 
Step 11: Worldbosses
 
Every worldboss takes about 15min so about 3-4 hours maybe a bit more due to travelling.
 
 
I made the "tedious" stuff red. Not so sure about Worldbosses because you can just 5man most of them
Discuss
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4. If we are making a key, let the key open the door for your entire group. Just one attuned player is required to start raiding, but it will still be something everybody wants to complete.
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I don't really get why the attunement is so tedious for people. And I consider myself a casual player. For example, I don't run vets all day over and over again to get the best runeslots, I go with what I got, but I still get better slowly gearwise. Where are people rushing to? You have to wait maximum one week before getting the key, big deal. I had to do dailies maybe for 3 days to get the rep, oh the repetitiveness. Silver adventures are a joke, silver dungeons SEEM very hard at first, but you just have to learn the game mechanics and work as a team. I did SSM last weekend, we had one guy who was there before who told the tactic, he did the silver like 2 days before that with a pug(!), and we did it on second try. And we're not uberleet hardcores, we are filthy casuals who sometimes miss interrupts and whatnot. It's just that it SEEMS hard at first and gamers today are so freaking impatient. Btw, I'm a tank going with other guildies through vets every day since I got 32K rep. Sometimes I think this game is more for casuals who can take it for what it is (a game), than for hardcores...
 
If you dispise running dungeons more times so much, why do you like raids? It's basically the same thing, the only difference is the number of people fighting. How is running raids over and over again better than doing that in dungeons?
 
That said, I'm not against tuning attunement, if that's what it takes to bring people back. Just my thoughts.	
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Only on the Wildstar forums will you see people complaining that a game designed with the hardcore in mind is too hard and should be made easier for the sole purpose of increasing numbers.
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Firstly, agree with the spirit of getting rid of the whole attitude re hardcore/casual, but it's not reality because those two camps regularly argue it. Get them to agree and I'm down with it. They never do though.
 
As for your ideas, love the idea of the soft cap on EG and the ability to purchase gear, but at what time rate are you thinking? Putting my black hat on for a moment here in the spirit of equitable discussion, I'd hate for a situation to occur where people decide simply doing dailies and basic adventures is the 'most efficient' route to gear and I think the people labeling stuff as tedious would agree since that would only make it more tedious. If there's some kind of soft cap, I'd prefer to see the time frame around its gain roughly somewhat less efficient than doing actual group content - it is after all an mmo. I think a bonus of vet dungeons would be better than vet adventures (let's face it, vet adventures are pretty easy once a certain not difficult gear level is reached).
 
I'm all for expediency providing it maintains difficulty. My only beef with these types of discussions is that ideas tend to degenerate into a sum total of 'i want it easier'. I'd prefer your 15-20 min statement have the caveat of 'a good team of players working well together who know the fights' could do it in 15-20 mins and be rewarded for it. I'd hate to see a farming type scenario that detracted from other content.
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@Perderedeus
 
I voiced my opinion many times and think game design ideas that are first tedious  and fun later have to make place for something a bit more creative.
Having said that I disagree with comment about smart game design.
 
If its smart game design doesn't have to do anything with this game. Carbine made a pitch saying they want to cater to the 1%. That design philosophy was no secret they said it on conventions etc. So NCsoft who decided to go ahead and publish this game knew about it.
Is it feasible to go for the 1%? If they can make a profit out of it. Sure. You don't need to pull WoW numbers to be a profitable mmo. FFXI a game with a largely smaller playerbase is still not f2p after almost 12 years. And that game was grindy in every sense of the word.
 
The only problem at the moment that splits the playerbase is the definition of the word hardcore that is so loosely thrown around.	
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in absolute 100% honestly Frigg, a lot of us actually like the time sink. That may sound wierd, but its actually one of the make or break characteristics of an MMO for me. If there isn't content that is going to be both challenging and a lengthy process to obtain or complete, I'm honestly not interested.
 
I 100% agree there should be some more varied progression and expanded rewards (expanded mostly in extent, but also depth), but If W* got rid of it's carrots that are both a difficult challenge AND very time consuming... I honestly would probably leave for something else.
 
I don't think it's defense of Carbine per-see, but defense of a mechanic that many of us actually enjoy at it's core. Obviously YMMV.
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There's no reason why you can't have that in WS too. I think a lot of the frustration is that there aren't just a few really awesome things locked behind a grind wall, but many things like crafting, cool dyes, amps, abilities, etc. And one thing in particular, which is the ability to raid, which is a core part of the endgame.
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Also, there's a difference between time investment and time gambling.  Wildstar has areas where there's a lot of the latter. 
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Excellent way to put it.
Many people just aren't gamblers at heart, at least not when the currency they're putting on the line is something as valuable as time (arguably the most important currency of all).
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I would rather see this game dead than have raiding turned into LFR.
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As an honest question (and a bit of a hijack maybe) - what exactly was so wrong with LFR? Did it supplant heroic or hard more raids? I was always under the impression that WoW's LFR system was a way for casuals to see watered down version of the content for watered down rewards. Is this not the case? As long as there were heroic or "real" versions of the raids, what was the problem?
 
To the OPs post about tedium - I totally agree. I'm attuned now, and after helping several others get attuned I honestly have no desire to play this game. By the time I got attuned and into GA others got burnt out and quit so we had to recruit new, unattuned people and then help attune them. Vicious cycle.
 
I really enjoy the gameplay  of this game, and LOVE the difficulty of the encounters but the attunement process really becomes a grind. Again, I am attuned the problem is constantly helping others because of so much turnover in guilds (this seems to be a problem many face). I know they are changing it but it might just be too little too late (plus it looks like those changes aren't until drop 4 at the earliest). That and outside of raid night there really is nothing to do in the game PvE wise anymore. Running others through dungeons for silvers has kind of sucked all the fun out of dungeons and I'd rather drink hydrochloric acid than ever run another daily.
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No, they nerfed the raids to Hell first, then added heroics initially as a way to string out the lifespan of a single raid.  LFR was added because it was possible to pug a raid, it wasn't added as they made raids puggable.  It basically replaced people putting raids together in SW general chat since they were clearing regulars.  I didn't really like them because it made it harder to get together a real raiding guild.  Which, thankfully, wasn't necessary anymore, since we were infilling half our raid with pugs sometimes when people weren't showing up and were reliably clearing heroics.
 
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I fully agree with the time factor. 
Anybody with a decent job can get the €15 in no time. 
The time required to get anything done in WS, be it due to RNG, due to waiting in a queue or due to players poisoning a group (pushing around other player) is in no relation to the rewards.
The entertainment value of the game is low at the moment, I am not a gambler nor a masochist.	
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I fully agree with the time factor. Anybody with a decent job can get the €15 in no time. The time required to get anything done in WS, be it due to RNG, due to waiting in a queue or due to players poisoning a group (pushing around other player) is in no relation to the rewards. The entertainment value of the game is low at the moment, I am not a gambler nor a masochist.
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			Well getting lousy rewards despite getting gold makes the content boring and unentertaining to go through.	
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Serious question here; When you say time required has no relation to rewards, what are you comparing W* too? Honestly curious, I Iook back at other MMO's (EQ1&2, FFXI, Ultima, AC, DAoC, WAR, RO, PW...) the time requirements in W* are tremendously short. But obviously a lot of people seem to think that W* takes a lot of time investment for some reason. IT can't be that W* is simply their first MMO; but I do wonder what it is...
 
So honest question, what are you comparing to when thinking of time investment vs reward?
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People's opinion of time investment is being amplified by having their hopes dashed when they get the item they want but with the wrong stats. You spend days or weeks of farming and the item you want finally drops but you still can't use it because of bad stats. I think that would make anyone say *cupcake*it, I'm done.
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So if you get an item that doesn't have the stats you are looking for, what's the difference between that and getting an item you can't use? Besides the fact that you could use an item with imperfect stats for you to hold you over until you finally get the item with stats you want?
 
I can't see any difference between Wildstars system of drops and every other MMO's, except you can get a less perfect version of the item you actually 'want' rather than only get items you can't use until you get the one you want. An item with bad stats for one is an item with great stats for another; drops aren't always going to be perfect for you; as a matter of fact in most games they are rarely perfect for you. While I 100% understand criticism against that type of system, it's also the standard MMO system for better or worse. 
 
There must be something else besides standard MMO drops not always being 100% perfect for folks? 
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No, imagine you're playing WoW and you get a purple weapon drop you've been holding out for.  But all the stats and slots are randomized, so imagine your 2-handed epic axe with a 5% drop rate coming with that worthless "of the Whale" on it and making it worthless for anyone.
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Well, to be honest Vic, I don't have to imagine. That game is called Diablo II. I understand some folks don't like the randomized stats system; but in W* the stats are only randomized in a set range, and while the rune slot RNG is a big big problem, it is being taken seriously and is on the way to being fixed . 
 
While it is a unique type of system, It's not really any different than a drop system in which you have no RNG on your items but lower droprates (for example EQ ). You would still see your 'perfect' stat item in about the same time, just with W* you might also see a few versions of the item you are looking for that aren't perfect for you (but could be good for another class maybe?). 
 
Again, I know runes are a problem, but is the fact that you can get a version of the item you want with stats you don't want (but some one else might want) really what has everyone acting as if W* is impossible and doesn't reward time? To me that just seems like a massively shallow issue given the reality that in most games you spend far longer trying to obtain similar rewards with NO chance to see a less optimized version of it on the way. I mean, its not like very many epic drops are useless; they are all at least decent for some build of some class. I guess I view getting an epic thats poorly optimized for me as getting any other piece of gear I can't use; sure I might not get the most out of it, but maybe that Sin Tank will.
 
I suppose as always YMMV, but that just seems like a non-issue to me. You do content to get a drop chance; you won't always get an item you really want or can use... to me that's part in parcel with the MMO genre
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Well, to be honest Vic, I don't have to imagine. That game is called Diablo II. I understand some folks don't like the randomized stats system; but in W* the stats are only randomized in a set range, and while the rune slot RNG is a big big problem, it's being fixed . 
 
While it is a unique type of system, It's not really any different than a drop system in which you have no RNG on your items but lower droprates (for example EQ). You would still see your 'perfect' stat item in about the same time, just with W* you might also see a few versions of the item you are looking for that aren't perfect for you (but could be good for another class maybe?). 
 
Again, I know runes are a problem, but is the fact that you can get a version of the item you want with stats you don't want (but some one else might want) really what has everyone acting as if W* is impossible and doesn't reward time? To me that just seems like a massively shallow issue given the reality that in most games you spend far longer trying to obtain similar rewards with NO chance to see a less optimized version of it on the way. I mean, its not like very many epic drops are useless; they are all at least decent for some build of some class. I guess I view getting an epic thats poorly optimized for me as getting any other piece of gear I can't use; sure I might not get the most out of it, but maybe that Sin Tank will..
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I have two 50's on two separate servers, both in guilds of roughly 30ish members, all mmo vets.
 
Leadership of both guilds have basically come to the same conclusion: we will never attain consistent raiding status. Why? Simple answer, attunement. It's not hard core, it's the definition of tedium. As a guild we have to look forward to never ending runs of the same content. And this content isn't hard core, it's just plain tedious. Whomever designed Malgrave Trail needs to be taken out and shot. And pugging these things is for the purely sado masochist.
 
Then, after you've spent all that time getting your 20 ready to raid you lose someone for whatever reason and you get to start the whole process all over again, oh joy.
 
This isn't a hard core end game, it's a never ending treadmill of getting everyone ready.
 
Love the game play, love the classes and group dynamics, but if you don't do something about this end game hamster wheel you're going to suicide your own game.
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No, imagine you're playing WoW and you get a purple weapon drop you've been holding out for.  But all the stats and slots are randomized, so imagine your 2-handed epic axe with a 5% drop rate coming with that worthless "of the Whale" on it and making it worthless for anyone.
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They already addressed in last week's Nexus Report that this is a valid concern and they're taking steps to drop the harsh requirements for attunement. It'll still be there but its only basically going to require completing adventures and dungeons. This will better help stabilize guilds not having to worry about replacing people.
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People's opinion of time investment is being amplified by having their hopes dashed when they get the item they want but with the wrong stats. You spend days or weeks of farming and the item you want finally drops but you still can't use it because of bad stats. I think that would make anyone say *cupcake*it, I'm done.
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I actually feel like most players have this kind of approach:
 
"You spend two-three runs and the item you want finally drops, but you can't use it because of bad stats".
 
Don't get me wrong, I'm against randomized stats (by the way, which items have randomized stats in adv-dungeons?(, but if people lack patience, they sure as hell won't be happy in raids waiting 2-3 weeks to finally get a piece of gear.
 
 
 
It does actually. If MMO history taught me one thing, then it is this: The MMO playerbase is a bunch of hypocrits.
How many rage about the content draught in WoW before EVERY expansion, you think they won't be back for WoD? Yeah right.
Same here. Player who silently leave are the real danger. Seeing how lively it is here in the forums, I tend to be optimistic.
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Doesn't really matter at this point. By the time they make the changes even more people will have left. CRB staff said several weeks on Reddit and that it won't be patched in, it will be in a content drop so it will most likely be a good while. People won't wait around for months, at least not most people and it's understandable.
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People won't wait around for months, at least not most people and it's understandable.
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Well, being CREDD-subbed for a while helps keep people around.
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I think this is a misnomer, personally. Doesn't matter if they're not forking over real money. If they feel like they're not progressing or if all that is waiting for them is frustration, they're not going to stick around. They'll just leave. They might come back at a later date to check out how the game is doing, but I don't think very many people do.
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I think this is a misnomer, personally. Doesn't matter if they're not forking over real money. If they feel like they're not progressing or if all that is waiting for them is frustration, they're not going to stick around. They'll just leave. They might come back at a later date to check out how the game is doing, but I don't think very many people do.
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Well, being CREDD-subbed for a while helps keep people around.
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^This. Unfortunately. Saw this same thing happen with Old Republic. Even if you try to reason with people who've been very patient with a developer, it truly is a tough sell at this point. 
 
A hive mind can be a powerful thing.
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Of course, although I know a fair few players that got 4 months of CREDD and they aren't interested in using it really.
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