131148-one-major-problem-of-carbine-the-missing-skill-to-inform-new-and-potential-wildstar-players

== Content ==
			
Hey,
 
as the title says I would like to clarify what is one of the major problems of Carbine .. in my opinion!
 
It´s all about their skill to inform new and potential WildStar players about all the important stuff they need to know to 
have fun playing the game or decide to play the game (again).
 
Due to the fact that I don't like long texts - nobody wants to read them - I´ll start with my list of different aspects of the problem directly!
 
 
Free-2-Play Marketing
 
I think it´s not a secret that marketing has been a problem of WildStar since the annoucement. But with the transition to F2P 
it has become even worse. In my opinion Carbine hasn´t shared a lot of important details to all the gamers out there.
Why did so many players leave WildStar?Bad leveling experience
No casual endgame content
Freaking hard and time-consuming attunement quest
Performance
PvP problems 
What did Carbine tell the press in all F2P interviews?
Streamlined tutorial, dungeons and starting zones
Streamlined tutorial, dungeons and starting zones
Streamlined tutorial, dungeons and starting zones
Streamlined tutorial, dungeons and starting zones
New attributes
Streamlined tutorial, dungeons and starting zones
Streamlined tutorial, dungeons and starting zones
Streamlined tutorial, dungeons and starting zones
Sell junk button
 
Let´s be honest: How many players left the game because of the bad tutorial? I don't t think there were so many! Soin my opinion Carbine has advertised to the totally wrong thing. Since the release so many good things have been changed, but none of them has been mentioned!Here are some example of what Carbine should say:
We´ve changed our raiding conecept: No 40 players raid anymore! Every raid is for 20 players now. Did you have problems with the attunement quest?No worry! You don´t have to do so many time-consuming different things anymore. It´s really easy to go raiding now.  And by the way: We've updatet all world bosseson Nexus. They are open world raid bosses for 20 players now with unique mechanics and really usefull loot. 
You don´t like raiding or pvp? Therefore you had nothing to do in the end game? No worry! We´ve added a huge amount of end game stuff into the game.There are lot´s of new solo dungeon, we have collectable pets now, a new costume system, three new zones for level 50 with daily quests, events, world bosses, challenges, story, amazing rewards and more! And if you like housing ... holy chua ... we´ve added so many new decor items, FABkits, buliding blocks and new features for your housing plot! 
Since the release a lot has happened to the performance. We are improving our client with every major content update. Of course we are not finished because you can improve it further and further! 
We know PvP wasn´t fun a long time! But we've changed a lot on itemization, scaling mechaincs, rewards, cheating, bugs and other pvp aspects! Some weeks after the F2P transition we will start PvP Season #2 and we think this will be a really good fresh start for the pvp of WildStar. 
Since the release of WildStar we've released 5 major content updates with hundret pages of patchnotes. We've collected a lot of player feedback and our priority was to improve many of the negative aspects of the game. We've changed so much! It´s an other game with the same art style now. If you left the game shortly after the release. You have to come back and see what has changed so far. There are so many new things to do for every type of player and it´s all for free soon! 
You are a Lore-Freak! We've started the "Nexus Saga" with a bunch of deep new lore, an awesome solo story dungeon and there will coming a lot more ...  
 
 
The WildStar Website
 
One of my favourite topics! It's such a shame to see how the main source of information about this game is completely neglected.One question: Where do potential players look in order to inform themselves about the game? Yes: The official website! Let's take a look how it looks: 
No F2P release date or any "good" overview about all changes ... only some hidden articles and news 
Patchnotes for only two Drops
Overviews for only three Drops
No information about things like crafting, housing, mounts, pets, customization, battlegrounds, arena, dungeons, shiphands, world bosses ...
And a LOT OF WRONG INFORMATION
Take a look at this: http://imgur.com/a/UnhqF
 
 
 
The lack of information in the game 
 
Now let´s take a look at the game itself. Many things have changed since release and Drop #6 will bring some new good changes.
But it feels like ... Carbine does only the half of the potential. Some exmaples:
 
You improved the dungeon medal system really well. It´s not perfect but players can see what to do now!But what´s about adventures? I guess ... 85% of the wildstar players don´t know what to do to get a silver or even a gold medalin Malgrave Trail or Crimelords. We have to look in the tutorial section of the game to get this information ... Why? Why is it possilbeto improve the dungeon medals but not the adventure medals? 
You've added the new Content Finder in Drop #6 with the "Suggested" section. THIS is an REALLY AWESOME idea and totally poorly implemented!First of all it looks ugly, I hope for an UI update with the next PTR patch. Secondly it offers not really useful information. Visit this Dungeon, visit this battleground ... etc...While leveling it´s okay! But at level 50 you need to guide new players! In my opinion the time of "read a guide on fansites" or "watch videos" is over. Most players are lazyand don´t want to surf the internet for information. Some examples:
Add catgegories like "Raiding", "Open World", "Dungeons", "PvP", "Solo" and inform players what to do. Raiding: Explain World Bosses, explain the Attunement, explain different raids and how to get into them, explain what else you should do for raiding (min itemlevel etc.)
Open World: Show level 50 questing zones, explain events like R-12 or Lightspire ...
Dungeons: Explain the "workflow" of Shiphands -> Adventures -> Dungeons, explain the itemization, explain medals again etc.
PvP: Explain the itemization of different pvp modes, how to start ...
Solo: Shiphands, World Story (OmniCore etc.)
Other: Collect additional AMP and Skill points, explain different currencies (glory, elder gems ...) 
What I mean is ... WildStar has so many cool features and amazing end game content. But lots of players don´t know how and where to start. 
Additionally add a "What´s new" section into the content finder and list all new things and major updates of the latest Content Drop. 
The "show people what to do" thing brings me to the next topic: Loot tables! It´s only my opinion but I think I´m not alone with it. It would be really helpfull to knowwhere I can get better gear! But it´s not possible because there are no really good and correct loot tables for Dungeons, Raids etc. And the major problem: all of your itemization changes have changed the loot tables as well multiple times. It´s not fun to run dungeons, adventures and raids hundret of times without to know where I can find better gear.  
We also can find a really good example for "lack of information" in the Drop #6 overhaul of the challenge system. If you complete a challenge on PTR ... NOTHING! happens! That´s totaly bad for new players. They will think: Why the hell did I do that? Oh wait there is a chat message ... "120 Challenge points" .. what?! Nevermind ... crazy thing ... Story ends! No new player will understand challenges although it is such a great system. Why isn´t it possible to add a notification like the contract progress popup on the screen. Hey you've won 150 challenge points .. you need 10 more points for a new reward .. click here so see it .. or click here to collect the reward ...  
Another good example: the new objective tracker. I love it, but there is one big problem: It only shows objectives in the range of X. That means the following: If you accept a quest in thayd for Grimvault you won´t see it in the objective tracker! If you accept lots of quests in a quest hub of .. malgrave ... and there is a quest at the end of the zone .. you won´t see it in the objective tracker! A bigger problem: path missions! With the datachron it was possible to see all active path missions and where to go. That´s impossible now! You have to walk threw the whole zone (multiple times) to find and complete them. That´s more than annoying .. it´s terrible.
 
 
Don't understand me wrong. I really love this game and I´m a fan of it since Gamescom 2011! And there are really good things which inform new and lazy players in the game as well! But it really seems like Carbine don´t want to have new players. No good advertisement, a complete outdated website and many newby unfriendly game features. BUT! YES! We have a new tutorial experience ...Greetings!
			
				
	Edited September 5, 2015 by Greyn	
----
			Yes, everything you said. Yep	
----
			I agree completely. Well said.	
----
			You should get hired to do the markedting.. really nice sum up of alot of important aspects of the game.	
----
			
They said most of the stuff several times in the live streams on on forums.
If ppl wanna take by the hand They should play World of warcraft.
They only should better explain the rune stuff etc to new comers .
But yeah the marketing is just really bad , they could have so many players in the game .
			
				
	Edited September 5, 2015 by boynl72	
----
			
 I know this topic was brought up once or twice before the game was released and never really mentioned again.. but i think when the smoke clears and ws stabilizes carbine should reconsider this request. One thing that wow has an abundance of which also helps in promotion is they got a lot of really good machinima videos that the community has made.. there is also a piece of software to help with this that was developed specifically for wow though it was made by the community.. I would like to see something like that implemented later on down the line that would allow for a bit more versatile animations with the games assets and characters along with some basic lighting and camera positioning. This would open up the flood gates for the movie maker types to take an active interest in the game...and given that housing is an amazing system and with more to come with neighborhoods this could really take machinima to another level for this game.. all it would take is for a video or two to go viral and there would be free advertising for the game right there.. it wouldn't even have to be that complex of a program either something along the lines of mmd or like it...i
 
If such a program existed im sure players who never even concidered doing animations ect would test their hand at it especially if the program was simple and user friendly...just some food for thought this morning..
In the end it would be win win since ws would get free community promotions and it could reach players that may just want to play to game for the sake of making videos.. i know machinima has a community already and this would reach them.
			
				
	Edited September 5, 2015 by Rebel Angel	
----
			
nothing much to add really.
Problem is that Carbine only promises to look at these things, but honestly not much changes are happening.
They are either simply not caring, or they are gambling that we take initiative in our own hands so they don't have to do anything.
 
Either way it's frustrating because every time we get new members they are playing based on either extremely old information or wrong information.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
Hey,
 
as the title says I would like to clarify what is one of the major problems of Carbine .. in my opinion!
 
It´s all about their skill to inform new and potential WildStar players about all the important stuff they need to know to 
have fun playing the game or decide to play the game (again).
 
Due to the fact that I don't like long texts - nobody wants to read them - I´ll start with my list of different aspects of the problem directly!
 
 
Free-2-Play Marketing
 
I think it´s not a secret that marketing has been a problem of WildStar since the annoucement. But with the transition to F2P
it has become even worse. In my opinion Carbine hasn´t shared a lot of important details to all the gamers out there.
Why did so many players leave WildStar?Bad leveling experience
No casual endgame content
Freaking hard and time-consuming attunement quest
Performance
PvP problems
----
			
 
{| class="blockquote"
 
I guess I may be in the minority, but what got me hooked and had me unsub from other MMO's was the amazing leveling experience and atmosphere! What made me leave was the horrid class balance and MoO with interrupts. Difficulty and performance issues I guess were there, but did not drive me away in the slightest.
 
For reference I subbed right away for 1 month and played solidly for that 1 month. I then quit and never came back. I'm looking at the game again with F2P around the corner to see how the issues I found have been addressed. I've tried the beta, and it appears that it was somewhat addressed, but is still mostly there.
----
			
It's not just that.
The problem is that the last few months more "bad" things have been happening, leading to some very heated discussions, compared to the actual good things that have been happening.
And that exactly is working against them right now because people only remember the bad things that have happened.
And the current streak of issues, unclear information and no obvious response is putting people off.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It's not just that.
The problem is that the last few months more "bad" things have been happening, leading to some very heated discussions, compared to the actual good things that have been happening.
And that exactly is working against them right now because people only remember the bad things that have happened.
And the current streak of issues, unclear information and no obvious response is putting people off.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Anyone remember drops 2 and 3? :ph34r:
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It's not just that.
The problem is that the last few months more "bad" things have been happening, leading to some very heated discussions, compared to the actual good things that have been happening.
And that exactly is working against them right now because people only remember the bad things that have happened.
And the current streak of issues, unclear information and no obvious response is putting people off.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
snip
 
----
			I concure with everything you said - it is as if they are trying to sell it to the people that are already playing rather than new people that no nothing about the game or people who used to play!	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
While I don't disagree with you entirely, I'd like to know where you got your data for the assumption that most players left Wildstar for your proposed reasons.
Your friends left because of that? There was a reddit thread about it? A youtube video said it? None of those are actually reliable metrics. The amount of people that actually POST on the forums, visit reddit, watch youtube reviews, and so on, is probably something like 5-10% of the ACTUAL playerbase.
 
 
I'm pretty damn sure that Carbine is not stupid and they have WAAAAAAAAAAAY better data than you do about why people stopped playing Wildstar. Just saying.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
How? There was no exit survey or anything. How does Carbine have any data on why someone left? I stopped subbing for 6 months and received no attempt at communication from them. How do they have this data? The best they have is what did people do, what level were they when they quit. Which is not concrete information in the least about why someone quit.
 
Where is this pertinent data they supposedly have?
----
			Woot Woot, it's weird how community managers don't manage the website. But ya everything has been said is true.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
How? There was no exit survey or anything. How does Carbine have any data on why someone left? I stopped subbing for 6 months and received no attempt at communication from them. How do they have this data? The best they have is what did people do, what level were they when they quit. Which is not concrete information in the least about why someone quit.
 
Where is this pertinent data they supposedly have?
----
			
If they know so well, why are we at f2p and dead servers? Past success, or better said lack of success, speaks volumes about how useful that data seems to be in their hands. 
But go ahead, drink the coolaid. Just stop expecting others to do it with you.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
nothing much to add really.
Problem is that Carbine only promises to look at these things, but honestly not much changes are happening.
They are either simply not caring, or they are gambling that we take initiative in our own hands so they don't have to do anything.
 
Either way it's frustrating because every time we get new members they are playing based on either extremely old information or wrong information.
----
			
What I keep telling myself when I see all the mistakes in the website is that when they had the layoffs they booted them first, but I totally agree
 
Dear Carbine Staff, I want more people to come play with us in F2P, PLEASE INFORM THEM CORRECTLY. Rushed F2P Launch at least dont let little things like this screw us man.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I think the unfortunate thing is they're focusing too much on what F2P is changing and not enough on what has changed over the past year.  There are a lot of players who quit shortly after launch and things like a revamped tutorial aren't the types of things that are going to draw them back in.  I keep seeing people on Reddit complain about the long attunement process, gold medals in dungeons being the only way to get purple loot, the lack of solo end-game content, 40 man raids, gear imbalances in PvP, etc.
 
Drop 6 is obviously making some fundamental changes to the game, and those should definitely be discussed.  But seeing as this is being treated like a relaunch of the game, there should also be mention of many of the major complaints from early on being addressed - and just other things that have been added.  The F2P transition shouldn't just be about getting new people, but trying to lure former players back.  There just seems to be too much focus on the former and not enough on the latter - which is a little dumb since discussing things that might lure former players back in are things that also might be appealing to new players.
----
			Olivar, I am kinda surprised to see this sort of resignation from you. I lost all hope when they announced all current gear would probably be useless after f2p. imho, just the latest indication that carbine doesn't care at all about its existing customers and is focused exclusively on f2p customers that might or might not materialize in the future.
			
				
	Edited September 6, 2015 by myst	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Olivar, I am kinda surprised to see this sort of resignation from you. I lost all hope when they announced all current gear would probably be useless after f2p. imho, just the latest indication that carbine doesn't care at all about its existing customers and is focused exclusively on f2p customers that might or might not materialize in the future.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
{snip}
----
			This is 100% true and I really hope that they pay attention to this and make some changes. The thing is, the game really is so great! But so many people aren't interested because they have no idea what it offers, and it is actually difficult to get good information about the game. If the changes mentioned here were actually made, I think it would make such a big difference to the amount of new players.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Carbine (and all MMO Dev companies that I'm aware of) track players Subscriptions, CREDD usage, and so on, and also what part of the game world the character stopped playing in, their faction, what level the player was, how far they were on their attunement quests, how many dungeons theyve completed, raid completion, pvp completion, pvp ranking, wins/losses, and so on. I'm not just pulling this fact out of nowhere either, Carbine Devs have stated multiple times on these forums that they have this data. If Wildstar recorded your progress in some way, that means the Devs can see that.
 
You don't need to be willing to give them data. There is no need for a survey. By playing in their game world and by their rules, you automatically give the Devs statistics. Which is a good thing, because then the Devs can actually know whats better for their game in the future.
 
Devs have said this before and I'm just repeating them: Trust them, they have better data than you do. Lots of people on the forums say "Devs suck I could do it better!" but they really have no clue what they're talking about because they can't see the REAL numbers.
----
			Ah, the dungeons. More like, the people who stayed were the ones who were more likely to do dungeons. But hey, statistics! Cart, meet horse. Not that I'm not pleased that the longer vet dungeons are faster now.	
----
			
Leveling was fine.... I only left cause i didn't feel like forking over 15 a month for a game, any game. Carbine did a bad job of attracting lots of people cause they kept screaming hardcore and focused too much on being sarcastic than actually focusing on making the game friendly to everyone.
 
That said they did a good job of making the game hard but not hard enough for everyone. They just really sucked at marketing / getting this game across to people. They banked on their humor too much	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You're right, they have said this before. And both you and they are making the same fundamental mistake of presuming that because they have access to all this information, they will in fact collect it, compile it, and interpret it sensibly. This is not an easy thing to do and their track record of doing it is not reassuring at all.
 
The issue isn't that they don't have the real numbers, the issue is that they apparently have no idea how to extract them or what they mean.
 
Remember the infinite farming exploit? How they reassured us that they had it all under control, no rollback necessary because zomg, not a loss of one whole day of progress! Raaaage! at the very idea of it? Yeah, that was BS. Turns out their version of "under control" was such precise measures as "find anyone who has a lot of plants in their inventory and nuke them hard" rather than "datamine to see who was acquiring materials at a faster rate than should even be possible, under conditions matching the requirements of the exploit".
 
Remember when Timetravel was telling us all how doing the dungeons was the best predictor of player retention that they had, as if this meant that the dungeons were what was making people stay? Somehow, the people at Carbine didn't grasp "hey, maybe the fact that there's such a robust correlation between whether a player leaves or stays and whether a player gets through the dungeons or not is telling us something relevant to our abysmal player retention rates."
 
It seems to me that most of the points brought up by the OP are entirely correct, and the few places where I disagree--the leveling game, for example, was generally very well received and well reviewed at launch and is more of a chore when it's being repeated than it is the first time through--are pretty minor in comparison.
----
			We still talking about the pr or are we talking about the bugs now?
			
				
	Edited September 8, 2015 by phandaal	
----
			PR and the missing skill to inform new and potential WildStar players :D	
----
			Players like us old folks(43) need to INFORM themselves....back in the day when i was 1000 lol no but really we did not have quest guides or markers etc we READ the  text and like a true table top recalled(even written down) what was said and followed that.....you all so have it way so much easier so hand fed.:P	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Players like us old folks(43) need to INFORM themselves....back in the day when i was 1000 lol no but really we did not have quest guides or markers etc we READ the  text and like a true table top recalled(even written down) what was said and followed that.....you all so have it way so much easier so hand fed. :P
----
			Angryjoe is the only one I know that left cuz of the tutorial	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
And if you try this today people whine about how the game is too hard, incomplete and catered to #hardcore.
God I miss the old days of playing games without being spoon fed everything.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I have a suggestion for you.
 
Go play table top rpgs. Your own rules, level of difficulty and depth.
 
 
Oh but wait. Didn't we used to have people grumbling that there were players that just liked to find the trickiest ways to become OP and just kill things with no regard for story? Didn't we have people complaining that some don't engage with the story enough and just rush through killing?
 
Hmmm. You can't even agree between 6 acquaintances at a table, yet you will have success making thousands and millions agree to your idea of difficulty and fun?
 
In the old days Internet and gaming communities were small. And we were all too excited to have graphics and games to pay enough mind to the little annoyances. But now companies want more money than that small group of people. Gaming has been spread to the masses. We also have much easier ways to communicate and make our opinions heard. And we have more options.
 
And lastly... Even some of us from back then have changed. Different schedules, times, maybe even changed our idea of fun. Not to mention, once you have experienced a game that gives you new funner ways to play, it's hard to go backwards.
 
It's hard to do tab target after you have played action games. It's hard to play call of duty after counterstrike or destiny or mass effect.
 
You can build a niche game that caters to whatever you want. You just can't throw millions and a big production company behind it... Cause eventually you're gonna either not get the investment back or change to get your investment back.
 
We can whine about others all we want. It doesn't solve anything except make you look idealistic and a bit foolish. We have had great food, no wonder we complain that a restaurant has bad fries. When you're starving, fast food is heavenly, when you have tasted better and are eating for pleasure... You get picky.
 
I'm definitely pickier than I was back in 1997 when I thought quake was the best thing since sliced bread.
I don't like bread and I tried playing the old quake games... Haha.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
And if you try this today people whine about how the game is too hard, incomplete and catered to #hardcore.
God I miss the old days of playing games without being spoon fed everything.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Players like us old folks(43) need to INFORM themselves....back in the day when i was 1000 lol no but really we did not have quest guides or markers etc we READ the  text and like a true table top recalled(even written down) what was said and followed that.....you all so have it way so much easier so hand fed. :P
----
			
I was getting to a new level of bitter by this morning, I won't lie. 
Your responses had me laughing out loud (I got looks)... Thank you!	
----
			I agree with everything posted. More information should be given on the overall changes that have landed since release.	
----
			
Another PR nightmare on the Wildstar Facebook page right now.
 
Whomever is in charge there posted a link to GameRevolution, for a 10,000 Beta Key Giveaway. I was watching in real time, and saw it the *instant* it was posted. I hit SHARE, tagged two friends, then clicked on the link to see if I could snag an extra for my wife. Total elapsed time, less than 45 seconds.
 
The keys were already gone. The contest they *just posted* was days old already and their Facebook person had *just now* gotten around to linking it.
 
Seriously, guys? Seriously?
 
That is some scrub-league nonsense, right there. Now everyone and their mom is moaning about it on Facebook, giving rise to even more negativity and trolling. Why even bother posting it? I hope you guys at least got some kickback for the click-bait, because really, you've accomplished nothing except continuing to foster ill will with potential players.
 
Net PR Progress: -9000	
----
			Thinking of PR. Looking back at the "hardcore" PR of the game when it launched, cringeworthy. 	
----
			
Haha that's awesome, Tex. One would think that a couple of minutes spent checking out the giveaway before the posting would have confirmed that it's done. But there's no fixing laziness sadly.
 
At least you've come to the same conclusion as I did after the humble bundle fiasco.	
----
			
How did this thread not get a reply from the developers? It's well-written constructive feedback that addresses numerous marketing issues that the Devs would care about. 
 
I'm new to the forums. Is there a paid community manager here?  Do they participate on the forums and on the WildStar subreddit?  The link that brought me to this post was the top post on the WildStar subreddit for 2 days. It's the most upvoted post in the last week. There's no way any hired community manager who even does a cursory review of the forums and subreddit could have possibly missed it.
 
This is the type of post that I would think would be brought up in a weekly staff meeting, if not printed and brought immediately to the marketing director's attention along with the attention of his/her supervisor.  The time that it took to write this post hasn't even earned a "uh cool thx for the feedback we'll look into it" reply. This was posted 6 days ago. In 6 days, it's hard to argue that anyone would be too busy to find the mere seconds it would take to submit a reply, or at the very least, extending gratitude.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
How did this thread not get a reply from the developers? It's well-written constructive feedback that addresses numerous marketing issues that the Devs would care about. 
 
I'm new to the forums. Is there a paid community manager here?  Do they participate on the forums and on the WildStar subreddit?  The link that brought me to this post was the top post on the WildStar subreddit for 2 days. It's the most upvoted post in the last week. There's no way any hired community manager who even does a cursory review of the forums and subreddit could have possibly missed it.
 
This is the type of post that I would think would be brought up in a weekly staff meeting, if not printed and brought immediately to the marketing director's attention along with the attention of his/her supervisor.  The time that it took to write this post hasn't even earned a "uh cool thx for the feedback we'll look into it" reply. This was posted 6 days ago. In 6 days, it's hard to argue that anyone would be too busy to find the mere seconds it would take to submit a reply, or at the very least, extending gratitude.
----
			
Nothing much I can add besides my usual complaint-a huge issue I have with this game is that a great deal of in-game text is too small to read. I shouldn't have to go looking for an add-on to read quest text and I shouldn't have most of that text beyond the capability of add-on's to fix. 
 
Its hard to get into this games lore when I can't read it. I know so little about what's going on and it makes it hard for me to feel any kind of connection with this games setting and that's a very bad thing for any fictional universe no matter what the medium. 	
----
			They will fix all the problems after release. Don't you worry.	
----
			
My chua gets hit on in this game by noob role players more than I get on the second life strip clubs.
 
that is the key.
			
				
	Edited September 13, 2015 by Cubical	
----
			
Amateurish PR and marketing team, it's the blind leading the blind! If I get the chance to vote for the worst company in America …...They are getting my vote.	
----
			There are much much worse companies then Carbine, much much much worse. 2 letters should say it all E A
			
				
	Edited September 13, 2015 by Biytor	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
There are much much worse companies then Carbine, much much much worse. 2 letters should say it all E A
----