120370-attuned-and-unattuned-endgame-content-page-3

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We aren't elitists, tune into my stream in my sig, see how much fun we are having in here :)
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I'm sure you have fun when you're surrounded by your own. But it turns out that I don't need you to evaluate your own attitudes for me. I can read your posts and do my own evaluations.
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My own? What's that supposed to mean, people that also enjoy playing the game?
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Most likely, I would hazard to guess, she is one of those rare individuals that is to good to be in a guild. Those types that can't be bothered to roll around in the mud with us common folk. That, or she's just a dickpickle.
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I can't speak for her but I sure wouldn't want to be in a guild with someone who acts like this. That's priority one when I pick a guild.  In raiding that's just not possible though.  Raid guilds must have one and only one criteria.  Player skill.  If you like someone and they're inferior you still can't take them.  If you can't stand someone and they're good you still have to take them.  Just finding enough skilled bodies is a large challenge.  Rejecting people you dislike is out of the question.  Some people are just easy going and this doesn't bother them.  I can fully respect a person who just gets along with everyone.  That doesn't mean people who dislike other specific people are anti social though.  That's just normal.
 
If I could ask Carbine to do one thing I'd like them to think more about this.  Maybe raids could reward personal skill a bit more and punish the "team" a lot less.   There are ways to do this if you really think about it.  Better gear rewards for not standing in the fire.  Personal DPS races.  Etc Etc.  The end result would still be personally hard but allow you to enjoy it with people you actually like.
 
I think a lot of the cries for raids to become casual are centered around this.  Many of these players are often rather skilled and enjoy a challenge.  The fact that they're asking to get in on this stuff is actually because they like to play at the "high end".  They just don't like the social atmosphere a raid causes.  They settle for easy raids so they can at least play with their friends.  It's not what they actually want it's just the only thing they know that works.
 
If Wildstar would pioneer some change here then they could really profit.  A new raid formula where players can personally challenge themselves in any group would be a huge win.
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*shrug* OK. Compiled and edited slightly to incorporate revisions based on feedback. Edits noted in orange.
 
 
Also, I want to be clear that I understand that a streamlined attunement process would remove something that the top raid guilds consider very important: the filter that keeps people who just aren't committed to raiding out of their raid guilds and raid groups. I do understand that to some this is a very serious problem and I want to make sure they can continue to easily identify and exclude players who aren't up to their exacting standards from their own guilds and raid instances. Here's a few posts that provide a very simple way to do that regardless of whether there is ANY attunement process at all or not.
 
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How are quest chains pointless ordering? The only part of the whole attunement that this complaint has any merit with is the step of doing Adventures. Dungeons and world bosses do count no matter when you do them. So perhaps it would be better to ask for adventure achievements to count towards this step in advance.
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Comments in Orange again.
 
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You're pretending like the point of attunement would be somehow compromised if it wasn't a sequential quest chain. There are plenty of multi-objective quests out there that have subcomponents that can be completed out of sequence and this could easily be one of them. And it's silly for you to pretend there's no impact of order when even the others who basically agree with your end conclusion have already agreed that the rep grind does indeed represent a roadblock in the middle of the chain and suggested moving it to the end.
 
You're silly for complaining about a trivial set of objectives that with the exception of adventures for what ever reason, can be completed out of order. If you do the dungeons, world bosses and Rep out of order, they all count regardless of when you do them. So if you feel industrious you can do the dungeons and world bosses before that step and they will count. If you are smart you will also cap your Exile rep before you start the process.The rep grind is a road block only for people who skip PvE content. If you didn't do the quests stop crying that they were intended for you to accomplish and making a mountain out of the mole hill that is the Rep requirements of the step. Did you know that all of the quests that give you level 50 faction also give you Exile Rep? If you played the game more or learned to observe you'd have noticed this. Meaning that by doing each of the daily quests one time you can easily net yourself the 3-4k rep you'd be short if you did a poor job of exploring zones for the story content. So this step is literally only a problem for people trying to get themselves carried into a raid, or who didn't play the PvE side of the game.
 
 
Pyralos should only let one person in because Pyralos CAN be completed solo if you understand mechanics and can dodge red. That's the whole point of Pyralos, to show that you can do those things. World Boss instances should provide a space where you can gather without collecting aggro if there's fewer than 20 of you, but there's no reason why you should have to wait. The 20-person limit is to prevent MORE than 20, not fewer.  :rolleyes:
 
Where does it say that it's a solo only content, or that if it should be a solo experience? If it's in the open world, instead of instanced like other parts of the game are for your Attunement, then the only conclusion we can draw is that the Devs wanted people to be able to work together on it if they wanted. The whole point of Pyralos is to be defeated and to get a Primal Pattern from him. You can put what ever delusional import on it you want, that doesn't make your position true or correct. World Bosses already currently have tether ranges for their aggro. It is very safe to gather near them already.
 
But both of those things miss the actual point that I was trying to make, which is that by having those out in the open world, they're subject to respawn timers and spawncamping by groups that can wait at the spawn site and zerg the boss down within a minute of it spawning. Open world attunement objectives turn the objective into waiting and searching for spawns, neither of which has anything to do with raid-readiness. Raids, last time I checked, were instanced content.
 
Are you annoyed because you were never able to open your map and look at Zone events (orange hexagons) and properly identify if world bosses are up without running out to their spawn? Learn to use the tools you have available and learn to communicate with your peers in LFM channels that are in literally every MMO that has a chat feature. There is very limited waiting to be done on this step anyway, as Scorchwing is a daily quest that spawns very frequently, and the R-12 happens on a 4 hour interval. While you're doing R-12 you'll also get plenty of notice when the Hellrose Bowl is going to happen, as it blasts the info across the continent as well, or did you skip that too? While leveling the last 3 alts I've done, I have only missed a single world boss for the zone. You must have willingly and foolishly declined to do the boss while you were leveling in the zone. Last time I checked attunement has nothing to do with raid readiness, and you are absolutely correct in that raids are in fact instanced. Good job, 1/100 is better than 0/100. Oh, and I don't know if you are aware, but short of Aggreggor in Crimson Isle daily zone, none of the world bosses can be zerged down within a minute. They all scale your damage to the zone level, so even DS geared players cannot run off and kill Grendelus instantly. You'd know that if you've actually killed any of the world bosses.
 
As for it alienating groups of people, your argument ignores the overwhelming likelihood that the groups of people alienated by having to learn spawn locations and times and wander all over the maps to find WBs is assuredly larger than those who would be alienated by NOT having to do that.
 
Please find more people to suggest that it is difficult to check their maps for zone events and noticing where bosses spawn at. Only people that have never used a map in a game before could possibly be wandering all over the game world looking for world bosses, especially when there is such a thing as google and it takes 0.00012 seconds to find a list of all their spawn points if you some how missed them with your in-game tools. Or are you referring to the throngs of players that are friendless and guildless that wander aimlessly through the far reaches of every map without the ability to ask people where the boss spawns or the faintest idea how to communicate? Come up with something plausible to support yourself, I for one will continue to believe that players in WildStar know how to type. I mean you do right?
 
No, I'm making the claim that regardless of what they intended to make, what they ended up with was bloated, unfocused, unnecessarily tedious, and detrimental to the health of the game. It turns out the developers can get things wrong. They got this one wrong. And people DO have to play the game, because you have to be level capped in order to raid. AP/AMP unlocks are largely held behind rep grinds all over this game, and I'm sure you know this already.
 
As for earning it, you have yet to explain why raiding ought to be "earnable" by grinding your way through 100 WotW's on the backs of a bunch of DS raiders carrying you through it.
 
So your assertion is that attunement is responsible for the decline in the health of the game? There are a number of ways to level cap without ever doing any PvE content. However the Raids are the end game for PvE, why wouldn't it make sense to have players play the PvE side of the game to completion to have access to all the PvE content? I can see how you might be confused about grinding your way through 100 WotW's if you've never played the game, but that veteran adventure can easily be done in quest reward gear. It is a total joke for DS players to be in there doing anything at all, as their time is better spent else where. Access to additional content through quests, leveling or attunement should be earned, and why shouldn't it? Are you just salty because people refuse to run content with you? AP/AMP unlocks are 50% behind rep grinds. Those rep grinds are also only 16 days of a grind. So you are complaining about less than a month of grinding for something that isn't even necessary to raid. So start a new thread and complain about Rep grinds for unlocks there.
 
 
 
The game I've been playing is one where attunement makes you kill LOTS of bosses even if you only have to kill each one once. Does that sound like Wildstar to you? Sounds like it to me. We're actually going in circles now because you already sneered at me once before about how important is was to do ALL those dungeons and WBs and I already responded that the point wasn't to prove that you already had been exposed to every mechanic but to prove that you could spot and learn a mechanic. You don't need every boss in every veteran dungeon to prove that. That's why they're redundant even if they're not identical.
 
How many is lots? Do you even know? 3 of them are from the same event, while 5 of them can be done at 100% predictable times. Clearing zones sounds like WildStar to me, glad you agree. If I've sneered at anything it's the ridiculous notions you have about how a game should be played that you have egregiously represented to the point that we are all left wondering if you've even played it. No one can honestly have your position if they've spent any time playing the game. It's simply impossible to have drawn the conclusions you have. You would have had to gone out of your way to skip all content in the game, refused to explore zones or done quests to be in a position where the attunement process takes more than a day or two to complete. Or maybe because you spent 20 hours playing battle grounds you suddenly think you have played the game and it's time to raid? Try again.
 
 
You are, of course, welcome to keep misrepresenting my position as often as you want. But if you misrepresent it the exact same way each time, it's really easy for me to correct you. Almost a copy-and-paste job.
 
Hey, should I infer from the fact that you didn't protest loudly about the "no more carries" part that you now agree with me that carries should not be allowed to compromise the entire attunement process? If so, great! That would be real progress from the last time you tried to blow me off and label me an antisocial PvE-hating game-skipping know-nothing.
 
Tell you what, I'll make you a deal. I'll keep out of your endgame when there's an alternative that doesn't require me to play the way you enjoy playing. One that's just as rewarding and challenging as your endgame, since I'm a customer just like you are. Once I've got something like that, you can do your endgame however you want and it won't bother me one bit.
 
The idea of 'no more carries' was so off the wall I thought you were trying to make a sad joke. I guess you were dead serious about it. That's unfortunate. Carries don't compromise anything, the lack of skill a player would exhibit if they were in fact carried through content to get into a raid would be a massive liability to any raids attempting to clear the first floor of GA. It's been repeated, and will probably continue to be, but if you are truly carried through any content, you're useless and people will know you are useless and they will bench you for being useless. Play the game however you want, but remember you are playing the game made by designers who made it a certain way because they wanted you to experience it that way. If it were up to me I'd still force players to have to get silver dungeons and wouldn't have added time or made objectives easier, as you need the skills to clear silver dungeons to have any hope of killing Ohmna, Hopefully one day you'll get yourself into a raid and experience it yourself. Good luck finding world bosses, I heard you have to wander all over to find them.
 
Until then, your attunement is stuck with me just as much as I'm stuck with your attunement.
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People get carried through attunement all the time.People were paying plat and guilds were advertising to carry people through it.Guess what?Attunement doesn't mean crap then.
 
World bosses don't mean anything to raiding, infact most of the attuenment steps dont.The only one's that do are Adventures and Dungeons.
I still think we should have to get Silver on dungeons, and Gold on Adventures.The rest of the attunement steps are pretty much pointless.
 
Except the ones that lead into Datascape.	
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Maybe the attunement process should be a lot longer, for the people that like to grind?
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Maybe attunement shouldn't be something that you can be carried through by overgeared raiders.
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Yes this would be helpful but at the same time. The only situation where someone can't be carried is in solo play.
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Comments in Orange again.
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			Silly ideas. Leave the attunement, add a "box of tissues" decor item for all those who refuse to play the game and want to cry for their trophies instead.	
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It's not that they couldn't fix this problem. It's that they've chosen not to.
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That's true now, yeah. But it wouldn't be if people who are past attunement couldn't bring their raid gear into the attunement process to blow through it and render the person being carried irrelevant to their own attunement process.
 
That is a problem that could be fixed in a number of very straightforward ways, but my favorite is this: put attunement requirements in instances. Modify the interface for entry to the instance so that if you want attunement credit for it, you to check a checkbox titled "Attunement Run?" If anyone on the team checks the box, the only people who are allowed in are those who check the box. If you have raid gear equipped or in your inventory, you do not have the option to check the box.
 
It's not that they couldn't fix this problem. It's that they've chosen not to.
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I can't speak for her but I sure wouldn't want to be in a guild with someone who acts like this. That's priority one when I pick a guild.  In raiding that's just not possible though.  Raid guilds must have one and only one criteria.  Player skill.  If you like someone and they're inferior you still can't take them.  If you can't stand someone and they're good you still have to take them.  Just finding enough skilled bodies is a large challenge.  Rejecting people you dislike is out of the question.  Some people are just easy going and this doesn't bother them.  I can fully respect a person who just gets along with everyone.  That doesn't mean people who dislike other specific people are anti social though.  That's just normal.
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@Yasfan
 
The vast majority of attunement can be done out of order.  Yes the adventures and a few solo quests do require you to be on that specific step.  However dungeons, world bosses, and reputation will all give credit immediately upon reaching that step should they be completed out of order.
 
I'm not suggesting that this invalidates your discussion points.  Simply that as someone who has completed attunement on multiple characters I can confirm that the order is in fact somewhat liquid.	
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Wow, "you must not play the game" is becoming a real theme in your rebuttals. I do, whether you wish the opposite was true or not. I don't PvP much at all, so stop slapping PvPers around in an effort to swipe at me. It's kind of sad and very unfair to them.
 
As for all those things I'd know if I played the game, that's pretty funny. You keep repeating it as if somehow I'm not playing the game--and as if it couldn't be done equally well in response to you. Allow me to illustrate how someone could use your approach to respond to your comments if they were so inclined. In orange, since apparently that's the color of choice these days.
 
Attunement is about making sure you're ready to raid. If you played the game, you would know that.
AMP/AP unlocks are a really useful part of endgame progression that increase your performance in the game and that are a massive grind. If you played the game, you would know that.
Lots of people turn off channels like zone chat because it's full of trolls and spam. If you played the game, you would know that.
The PvE leveling process doesn't include world bosses in the quest lines. If you played the game, you would know that.
Carries happen for lots of reasons, not just to pad raider guild rosters. If you played the game, you would know that.
Raiders carry people through WotW all the time. If you played the game you would know that. Heck, you'd know that if you just read this thread.
Bosses includes dungeon bosses, not just world bosses. If you played the game, you would know that.
Game designers can implement even ideas that are well-intended so badly that it ends up being not just useless but a reason people give for why they've left the game. If you played the game, you would know that.
 
Wow, look at all those things you don't know that you would know if you played the game. You must not play the game much. Why are you even posting if you don't play the game. That's just sad.
 
See how easy that was? But not terribly fair, is it.  That's why I prefer to avoid ad-hominem attacks and respond to posts based on their contents and merit. You may want to try it sometime.
 
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Maybe attunement shouldn't be something that you can be carried through by overgeared raiders.
For people that like attunement to be meaningful.
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@Yasfan
 
The vast majority of attunement can be done out of order.  Yes the adventures and a few solo quests do require you to be on that specific step.  However dungeons, world bosses, and reputation will all give credit immediately upon reaching that step should they be completed out of order.
 
I'm not suggesting that this invalidates your discussion points.  Simply that as someone who has completed attunement on multiple characters I can confirm that the order is in fact somewhat liquid.
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 If you have some insight to allow us to take a different view point, by all means, inform us, but until then, it's probably best to be seen and not heard. 
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But that's not really relevant to why the ordering is problematic for attunement, because most folks aren't going through the process in such a well-oiled carry-machine that they've already done most of attunement before you get there. if you don't cap out your faction rep before that attunement step, you don't get to even start the group content progression through attunement until the faction rep step is over--unless you plan on running through the Veteran Adventures twice, or are skilled enough to beat the Veteran Dungeons without the gear you pick up in Veteran Adventures; or are getting carried through the Veteran Dungeons. 
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There IS some liquidity, you're right. The rep grind is a perfect example of how that liquidity plays out. Setting aside the issue that you don't get faction rep for participating in the most challenging faction-based content there is--PvP--you'd be hard-pressed to avoid getting a fair amount of faction rep just during the climb to 50. And I'm sure that anyone who is getting carried through, whether they are noobs on their main or hardcore raiders on alts, can do it so efficiently at this point that they max out faction rep long before they hit that step of attunement. And then they have credit for it before they ever get there and the step doesn't even register on their radar as an attunement step. The quest chain auto-advances right past it. Sounds great!
 
But that's not really relevant to why the ordering is problematic for attunement, because most folks aren't going through the process in such a well-oiled carry-machine that they've already done most of attunement before you get there. if you don't cap out your faction rep before that attunement step, you don't get to even start the group content progression through attunement until the faction rep step is over--unless you plan on running through the Veteran Adventures twice, or are skilled enough to beat the Veteran Dungeons without the gear you pick up in Veteran Adventures; or are getting carried through the Veteran Dungeons. 
 
This is part of how Carbine "fixed attunement". By giving people credit for completing stuff if they do it while undergeared and underleveled, but leaving the sequence that forces you to finish the rep grind before you even enter the gear progression for the Veteran Adventures that in turn gears you up for the Veteran Dungeons. Nice job, Carbine, way to make carries more appealing. *golfclap*. Let me guess, hardcore raiders had a chat on their voice servers about how to make attunement work better for them and the Devs Were ListeningTM.
 
By the way, I was already aware that you knew what the real problem was from when you said:
 
 
 
but I appreciate your explicitly acknowledging that the statement that the "vast majority" of attunement steps can be done "out of order" isn't particularly relevant to what makes the ordering of the attunement steps problematic in the first place.
 
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Well, nobody's actually making you talk if you don't want to, Khavaltre. Feel free to be seen and not heard any time you want to, don't let me s--
 
Oh. Oh, wait. You weren't telling me YOU wanted to shut up, you were telling me you wanted ME to shut up, weren't you. Well, that makes the answer much easier.
 
No.
 
 
 
Link, please, to a developer announcing that the point of attunement was not to demonstrate raid-readiness. Or, even better, I'm always delighted to be informed by a developer when I've misunderstood the point of particular aspects of game content.
 
Timetravel, if you're out there and would care to weigh in on whether or not attunement is there to demonstrate raid-readiness, I'm pretty sure we'd all find it very enlightening.
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Here is your link: http://youtu.be/7T7chiNM_Kc that is the Dev speak where they talk about attunement and the reasons behind their changes.
 
Now, please provide a link where the Dev's communicate that the point of attunement is to demonstrate raid-readiness.
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Any idea where in the video this takes place?  I don't really want to watch an hour of that, lol.
 
/lazy
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It's a repeated theme because anyone who has done it or again, actually plays the game, knows that the current attunement poses absolutely no concern or road block. Your complaints are akin to a child complaining about eating their vegetables before getting dessert.
 
Time Travel, and many of your fellow players, wanted to know what specifically is upsetting you or is too difficult and the only thing you've come up with is you think it's pointless, and that finding a group of players is too difficult for you, or you fail to grasp how to utilize the game functions as they are provided to you.
 
So the only thing we can draw from that is you indeed haven't actually played the game. If you have some insight to allow us to take a different view point, by all means, inform us, but until then, it's probably best to be seen and not heard. Eat your vegetables.
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"Stop moving with Purge!"
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I have already done the attunement, and I am working on it on my alt, but I am getting tired of the "you just don't like the game if you don't like all of the attunement steps" argument. I don't like wasting time on meaningless crap (I dislike leveling as well) to get to what I really want to do, which is end-game raiding, which is only found in MMORPGs.  It is absurd, regardless of dev communication/intentions (especially considering that they have changed over time), that the attunement is just a checklist forcing you to do PVE content you may or may not enjoy, before being able to raid.  
 
The only thing that is interesting and somewhat enjoyable to me, and also relevant to raid prep, is the dungeon requirement (and to a lesser extent the adventures), which should have been kept silver, especially with the time and other changes made.  People would be better prepared with quests/encounters that forces you to learn to "Stop moving with Purge!", "Spread the F out!", "Stop DPS!" or "Learn to interrupt!".   I honestly can't see how any other part of the attunement prepares you for raiding, nor should you be prevented from raiding just so that you can do everything Carbine created, while they failed to provide intrinsic value or reward for that content.
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How would you feel about attunement if Carbine only made the adventures achievements based and moved the reputation to the end of the pre-GA process?  I realize this is not addressing all of the areas that are in need of change but it would allows players to progress through the adventures, dungeons, and world bosses in any order they chose, or had the opportunity to do so, meanwhile moving the "reputation wall" to the end where it will probably be instantly completed due to all of the previous content being done.
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			You're the only one that can see the problem though, that's why I can't understand it. 	
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I don't see the point. The purpose of getting attuned is to gain access to raids. If you do not wish to join a raid then there is no point to getting attuned.
 
If you mean to do raids (the very top of the ability and group coordination ceiling) you should complete the content that preceeds it.
 
You had to beat King Hippo before being able to beat Tyson. Not that either of the two had similar mechanics. Why not beat adventures before raids.	
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I would call that a step in the right direction. I'm always a fan of steps in the right direction. Whether it's enough of a step to bring people who aren't hardcore and aren't willing to be carried to complete attunement, I don't know.
 
But I certainly don't think it could hurt to implement it. Do you?
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So... they made attunement easier because they wanted to "ease the transition from group content to raids" that "unlocks" them. 
 
From that, I infer that attunement is intended to be "a transition from group content to raids" that won't let you in until you've completed that transition..
Wouldn't that be--I dunno... like... getting you ready to go raid? How do you go from what they said to "Attunement isn't about making sure you're ready to raid"? 
 
Hey, you know that link you wanted me to provide? I think you did it for me! Thanks!
 
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Nothing in any of the attunement steps really prepares you for raid, as the raids themselves are very unforgiving, but again, attunement has never been about preparing you for raid. I haven't found a single dev post that suggests the attunement steps are anything more than just a level 50 quest chain you need to complete before you can have access to the desirable raid content. Much like you need to level to 50 before you can start attunement.
 
I'd be 100% in support of changing everything to support teaching the mechanics of the game, and I am pretty sure that the design intention behind the Proto-Games is exactly what we were looking for, in that it will help teach people what a Moment of Opportunity is and how to avoid mechanics.
 
Removing the attunement because 5% of the players only want to do raid PvE content and can't be bothered to play the rest of the game is silly.
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I guess I don't understand the point of "Hey do all this content before you raid" unless it is aimed at preparing you, even if it is very little and you are still not going to be "fully raid ready" after doing them.  Regardless of dev intentions, I don't see how it serves the game, nor raiding at large (once they removed the silver requirement).  If you aren't going to raid, this is all the content you have available to you, so you are either going to do it, grind dailies, pvp, or quit.  If you are going to raid, then you have a wealth of content and lots of hours filled with wiping ahead of you, which makes more upfront content unnecessary.  
 
If it is just to get you to do content, and not to prepare you for raiding, it doesn't serve raiding, as it just puts up another roadblock to raiding, when there is constant recruitment from virtually all raid guilds.  You are preventing anyone from trying out raiding, and getting a taste before they commit to a process.  You are also reducing alt and friends/family participation to fill in when needed.  With a limited or no bench, you are also adding more pressure to your existing roster to always show up, which burns out the average player. The raiding population needs a constant influx of players, and the attunement doesn't help with that.  
 
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I guess I don't understand the point of "Hey do all this content before you raid" unless it is aimed at preparing you, even if it is very little and you are still not going to be "fully raid ready" after doing them.  Regardless of dev intentions, I don't see how it serves the game, nor raiding at large (once they removed the silver requirement).  If you aren't going to raid, this is all the content you have available to you, so you are either going to do it, grind dailies, pvp, or quit.  If you are going to raid, then you have a wealth of content and lots of hours filled with wiping ahead of you, which makes more upfront content unnecessary.  
 
If it is just to get you to do content, and not to prepare you for raiding, it doesn't serve raiding, as it just puts up another roadblock to raiding, when there is constant recruitment from virtually all raid guilds.  You are preventing anyone from trying out raiding, and getting a taste before they commit to a process.  You are also reducing alt and friends/family participation to fill in when needed.  With a limited or no bench, you are also adding more pressure to your existing roster to always show up, which burns out the average player. The raiding population needs a constant influx of players, and the attunement doesn't help with that.  
 
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So then would it be better for people to burn out simply because the people they do recruit are fresh 50s with a mixture of greens and blues that haven't experienced coordinated content before?
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Raid-readiness is being fully prepared for a raid, which implies that you have all your gear set up for success, have all the technical skills, all your unlocks and all your consumables ready to go. You would also be 'raid-ready' if you had seen and studied all of the mechanics for the raid.
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So your definition of raid-readiness is: ready to defeat the raid before you ever set foot in it. Knowing exactly what to expect before you ever get there. The only thing missing is muscle-memory.
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Alright, I don't really understand this thread or what is motivating people/what they want.
 
Is there anyone who wants to be raiding and isn't raiding due to anything other than not having vet dungeons done on bronze?
 
Have people actually quit or gotten stuck at any other phases?	
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Alright, I don't really understand this thread or what is motivating people/what they want.
 
Is there anyone who wants to be raiding and isn't raiding due to anything other than not having vet dungeons done on bronze?
 
Have people actually quit or gotten stuck at any other phases?
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Is it fair to assume that the players we're catering these changes to, non-carried and non-hardcore, intend to raid rather than just complete the quest line for completions sake?  
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Raid-readiness is being fully prepared for a raid, which implies that you have all your gear set up for success, have all the technical skills, all your unlocks and all your consumables ready to go. You would also be 'raid-ready' if you had seen and studied all of the mechanics for the raid.
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Maybe the red will help you out. 
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[...]
 
So the target players are interested in giving it a try to see if they like it. I daresay that if they do like it, they will want to do more of it. So if your definition of "intend to raid" means "ready to demonstrate a real commitment to raiding" then no, they probably don't intend to raid... yet. Some of them assuredly will become ready to raid, others assuredly will not.
 
But none of them will ever intend to raid unless they can get in and try it out for themselves without promising beforehand that they'll love it and do it multiple nights a week for several hours each time.
 
[...]
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Showing up to raid without being as prepared as possible is like joining a soccer league and then not learning anything about the game, or practicing, before showing up for the first match. Maybe you're not sure you'll like it, so you want to try it out first? So you don't buy any clothes or practice kicking a ball. Maybe if you like it, then you'll invest.
 
Odds are you won't like it and your team will be pretty angry with you. Better to go to the practices, get the right kind of clothes, and show up knowing all the rules and strategies.	
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Let's see.
 
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 Raid-readiness is being fully prepared for a raid, which implies that you have all your gear set up for success, have all the technical skills, all your unlocks and all your consumables ready to go. You would also be 'raid-ready' if you had seen and studied all of the mechanics for the raid.
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I didn't intend for my mentioning competionists to come across as snark.  I was simply using the term as an alternative motivation to complete raid attunement.  So my apologies if I came across that way.
 
I can also agree that a player "looking to raid" can be defined in a number of ways.  I think its fair to say that the players we're talking about will range from players with prior raid experience who are playing for the purpose of entering GA all the way to players simply intrigued by the idea of raiding and want to have the chance to decide for themselves if GA and beyond are for them.
 
 
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No pointless sequential ordering. If you complete an attunement requirement, then you completed it. You don't have to do it again because you didn't do some OTHER attunement requirement FIRST.
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