146723-wildstar-not-for-this-average-player-page-3

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Except that they haven't really done this, have they? The increase in power and challenge from Crimson Badlands to Star-Comm Basin is almost negligible. All those new open world zones, not much reason to actually go into them.
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And yeah, definitely see people with Raid level gear completely destroying areas. Would be amusing to have raid gear only applicable to raids...oh I could imagine the complaining from that! haha
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Players didn't need guidance because the end-game progression model was familiar.  Here they seem to expect you to grind through Shiphands and Adventures before hitting Dungeons.  However the emergent path seems to be Contracts and World Boss hunting -> runing -> Dungeons.  I'm not sure they predicted that.
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			"gotta have something for those people who only like to OW quest through zones!"just new zones/quests occasionally. it's not their job to write a story just because you got to the last page.. go to ANY of the lvl 50 questing zones... how many people do you see? I'm sorry you'll never raid or something... but that doesn't mean they need to give you a welfare legendary so you can... quest harder? and your reasoning for doing adventures is your own... they don't need to come up with a reason for you to revisit content... if you want to do it, do it... maybe its a nice cosmetic you want from it, or achievements, maybe it drops a pet/mount/housing thing you want... but I don't shout to my girlfriend "HEY, GIVE ME A REASON TO KEEP DATING YOU, OR ILL LEAVE YOU" because if I couldn't find a reason to stick with her, I'd just leave her... in this case - if you like adventures, do adventures... if you don't - why force carbine into FORCING YOU back into them for something? you don't like that you can't progress however you want and then complain they don't make adventures required or something weird...I still don't understand this "ow questing" progression thing... why do they need to keep giving out higher Ilvl quest gear? are you going to quit if your average ilvl doesn't keep going up over time? I'm ashamed that theres a good chance with your level of entitlement you're probably from here(the US)... there are MANY types of content for MANY types of people... they don't have INFINITE RESOURCES since most people don't want to PAY for this game... so what makes you think YOUR path which has absolutely has to be the smallest minority I've ever even heard of, should get OW questing zones with some sick new... quest rewards?.  I'm happy when they add a zone and it adds costumes/décor from rep vendors... but really? come on... and yes, the raiders in this thread even agreed with you, WHAT DO YOU NEED RAID GEAR FOR OUTSIDE OF RAIDS? ​	
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			EXACTLY open world is its OWN TIER of CONTENT In the tier system ment for fresh 50s to explore. The zones dont really have tiers inside the system because they ALL belong to the Open World  tier of content hence the marginal increase in difficulty ..	
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EXACTLY open world is its OWN TIER of CONTENT In the tier system ment for fresh 50s to explore. The zones dont really have tiers inside the system because they ALL belong to the Open World  tier of content hence the marginal increase in difficulty ..
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No, no, my understanding is that many raiders don't see any reason why anyone who doesn't raid would ever want raid gear, so I'm sure they'd be just fine with raid gear only working in raids.
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"gotta have something for those people who only like to OW quest through zones!"
 
just new zones/quests occasionally. it's not their job to write a story just because you got to the last page.. go to ANY of the lvl 50 questing zones... how many people do you see? I'm sorry you'll never raid or something... but that doesn't mean they need to give you a welfare legendary so you can... quest harder? and your reasoning for doing adventures is your own... they don't need to come up with a reason for you to revisit content... if you want to do it, do it... maybe its a nice cosmetic you want from it, or achievements, maybe it drops a pet/mount/housing thing you want... but I don't shout to my girlfriend "HEY, GIVE ME A REASON TO KEEP DATING YOU, OR ILL LEAVE YOU" because if I couldn't find a reason to stick with her, I'd just leave her... in this case - if you like adventures, do adventures... if you don't - why force carbine into FORCING YOU back into them for something? you don't like that you can't progress however you want and then complain they don't make adventures required or something weird...
 
 
I still don't understand this "ow questing" progression thing... why do they need to keep giving out higher Ilvl quest gear? are you going to quit if your average ilvl doesn't keep going up over time? I'm ashamed that theres a good chance with your level of entitlement you're probably from here(the US)... there are MANY types of content for MANY types of people... they don't have INFINITE RESOURCES since most people don't want to PAY for this game... so what makes you think YOUR path which has absolutely has to be the smallest minority I've ever even heard of, should get OW questing zones with some sick new... quest rewards?.  I'm happy when they add a zone and it adds costumes/décor from rep vendors... but really? come on... and yes, the raiders in this thread even agreed with you, WHAT DO YOU NEED RAID GEAR FOR OUTSIDE OF RAIDS? ​
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Yes and no.
I don't believe people doing non-raid content really need to get raid gear. Mainly because it makes all other content almost trivial. 
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I agree. Anybody who has ever watched a DS raider blast through a zone understands very clearly how trivial the content is to that player, how efficiently they can farm it, and how rapidly they can blow through their contracts and other elements of grinding.
 
Which is fundamentally what we're talking about, since most players have done the content they really want to do a few weeks after the drop is released unless it's content that they have only limited access to, like raids or OMNICore-1. After that, it's no longer about the challenge of getting through the content, because the content has already been taken down. At that point, it's all about the farm. And if there's one thing that raid gear is really useful for, it's farming. Because, as you say, it makes all other content almost trivial. So people who have it can blow through other content very quickly, acquire resources at a much faster rate, and win every economic contest they're ever in with people who don't have it and can't similarly blow through their farming as quickly or efficiently.
 
This game, at this time, gives people with raid gear have a 20-30 iLevel edge in farming over people who don't. And if the iLevels on non-raid content stay the same but new raid tiers progressively advance into better gear, that gap only will get wider when the next raid tier comes.
 
And if it gets wide enough, it becomes clear to everyone that the only way to really be able to compete economically in the game is to be a raider. And when that happens, everyone who isn't a raider has a clear incentive to do one of two things: either become a raider, or leave the game.
 
That's why this:
is the real issue. It's not whether or not anyone needs raid gear to complete non-raid content. It's that nobody needs it to complete non-raid content, but some people have it and can use it to do so anyway.
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aaaaaaand we are back to the point where we no longer agree. :P
 
the raider invested alot of HIS time and money during the PvE progression and one of the reward is doing better than average joe in PvE stuff like dungeons and contracts. I dont know many raiders who do contracts anyway.... but ok you might see some of us here for arguments sake.
the best to get money atm that you can do is (besides min/maxing the AH which everyone can do) just running dungeons/battlegrounds and selling fragments/etc from the bags. 
an organised guild group gets a higher income with this over randoms who solo queue? thats really a problem that bothers you as well?
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aaaaaaand we are back to the point where we no longer agree. :P
 
the raider invested alot of HIS time and money during the PvE progression and one of the reward is doing better than average joe in PvE stuff like dungeons and contracts. I dont know many raiders who do contracts anyway.... but ok you might see some of us here for arguments sake.
the best to get money atm that you can do is (besides min/maxing the AH which everyone can do) just running dungeons/battlegrounds and selling fragments/etc from the bags. 
an organised guild group gets a higher income with this over randoms who solo queue? thats really a problem that bothers you as well?
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Pretty much this, you invested the time in a massive online game, you reap the rewards.
It's a Multiplayer Massive Online game.
Not a Single Player Massive Online game.
 
You want the same rewards, jump through the same hoops we all did.
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If the game were to stay as it is now forever, that logic would work. However, that's not how MMOs work. Things should get harder across the board, if not? Then you should really worry about the future of things.
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I'm not debating the challenging content becoming obsolete as progress continues.
That applies on any hoop.
 
I'm against the point that everyone should have the equal gear and progress difficulty.
You cannot expect a raider who has invested all his time obtaining the top tier to still be placed on the same level as someone who is just running dungeons.
As that was what was being argued about. 
Yes with full DS gear, dungeons should be "easier".
 
And if you even obtain the full dungeon sets, then dungeons are "easier"
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Pretty much this, you invested the time in a massive online game, you reap the rewards.
It's a Multiplayer Massive Online game.
Not a Single Player Massive Online game.
 
You want the same rewards, jump through the same hoops we all did.
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aaaaaaand we are back to the point where we no longer agree.  :P
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			Yea no. You get your epics from doing those zones. We get our gear from doing stuff in the raid zone. Wish when i did raids i unlocked everything in every zone and all the housing items because you know i spent some time in this game so i deserve everything. 	
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Yea no. You get your epics from doing those zones. We get our gear from doing stuff in the raid zone. 
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That's pretty much what we're saying but Open World stuff usually progresses alongside that. The next story zones? They should be harder, if they're not...then something is really wrong with the design of things. So, with that in mind, Open World players who may only do some content then would get access to i116 gear. It's not like it's gonna matter much as the T3 Raid is gonna be even higher gear wise. I already can get i100 gear just from contracts as it is, so really not far behind DS Raiders now. 
 
Global gear should remain close to Raid gear, not quite there, but close. If raider start going 40-50 ilvls over and more, that's a huge issue.
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Yup give people who collect 5 bear paws gear with the same amount of stats on it. Because thats what 116s are 
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That's pretty much what we're saying but Open World stuff usually progresses alongside that. The next story zones? They should be harder, if they're not...then something is really wrong with the design of things. So, with that in mind, Open World players who may only do some content then would get access to i116 gear. It's not like it's gonna matter much as the T3 Raid is gonna be even higher gear wise. I already can get i100 gear just from contracts as it is, so really not far behind DS Raiders now. 
 
Global gear should remain close to Raid gear, not quite there, but close. If raider start going 40-50 ilvls over and more, that's a huge issue.
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Or keep 116s as nearly BiS gear that only drops in raids, and just keep the gear coming out of Redmoon at the same quality and iLevel as the gear coming out of Datascape. Either way keeps the disparity where it is, and I'm fine with that.
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You as someone who doesnt raid would be fine with the next tier not being any form of upgrade because you dont do it.
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Why's it a huge issue?  Lets throw this all into therorecticals,  Redmoon comes out and also brings 2 new dungeons, 3 worlds bosses and 1 new raid.  The new dungeons drop iLvl 116 gear, with some cool imbuement storyline item that goes to 120, but are made to challenge people with iLvl 94-100.  The new world bosses drop 126 gear, balanced around 20 people engaging them with ~116 gear.  The raid fights on normal mode then drop 134 gear (balanced for people coming at them in 120+ gear), with hardmodes dropping iLvl 150 gear, balanced around people coming at them in full raid gear.  
 
Why on earth does it break anything that these raiding players are in iLvl 150 gear, that you can't get outside of raiding? Your gear is enough to allow you to do the new content as intended, and once you're geared in the relevant tier, to breeze through it.  Other people being in better gear than you because they did content you can't or don't want to do isn't a flaw with the game, it's just your choice within the game.
 
Ultimately WS is a pure sandpark MMO (seriously, when has anyone seen the whole 'plug and socket' system Gaffers sold us on in prelease put to use?), so if you choose not to go on some of the rides, then you're not going to be able to get some of the thrills.
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Nice to see that you understand the problem clearly. Not so much that you only see it when it applies to you.
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Because it's the same argument used in the RIP sword:  They have something I don't
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			Carbine can and should do more to provide more entertaining content for the casual player, for example, flesh out hoverboard racing as a permanent thing and maybe even add an instanced race mode, Carabin plz. This non-raid orientated content should also have an internal progression chain based on the max rewards gained from the prior step.  In the same vein, raid progression should pick up from the max of the last raid, in order to make it challenging for the players engaging with that content.  	
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once again pure and simple the people that don't do the raid content don't need/OR DESERVE the raid gear because they haven't done the content. 
Its always gonna come back to this. If you want the carrot you gotta do whats required to get the carrot.	
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So... each type of content has its own tier that covers a limited range of progression, and new content in that tier offers little to no progression? Brilliant idea, there's just one problem.
Raids increase in both challenge and reward over a range of iLevels almost as wide as the rest of the PvE endgame. That can't be right! Doesn't fit the paradigm at all.
 
They really should fix that, don't you think? So that raids are their own tier of content that has no real increase in difficulty or reward with the release of new instances, just like the rest of the PvE endgame.
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once again pure and simple the people that don't do the raid content don't need/OR DESERVE the raid gear because they haven't done the content. 
Its always gonna come back to this. If you want the carrot you gotta do whats required to get the carrot.
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Background: I'm a lifelong gamer married 40s no kids...lots of time and a fair amount of disposable income to spend on gaming. I've been playing MMOs for over a decade, though I don't claim to be a veteran or even of above average skill I have participated successfully in many MMO endgame activities (from raiding to group dailies and everything in between).
 
Opinion: WildStar is a beautiful game, I love the graphics, I love the lore, I freaking adore the character models and I really enjoyed the challenge of leveling as it required a lot more attention than in other games. Got to 50, found a great raiding guild to give me some guidance since I knew entering endgame would be more difficult than in other games I've played. They showed me the ropes, helped me gear up and got me attuned, they even brought me along for the first boss in GA that very same day to unlock the raid gear vendor for me and help me further gear up. My ilvl being 84 and fully runed they encourage me to start queueing for vet dungeons for more practice, glory, gear and runes...fair enough. I found the vet dungeons teeth gnashingly hard but I struggled through for as long as the groups would have me, usually bowing out after my death would wipe them on a boss the third or fourth time. After three separate 2 hour attempts on the last boss of Skullcano with three different groups, including a guildie group, I'm left with the realization I simply don't possess the hand/eye coordination or reflexes to participate in WildStar's endgame. I'm not crying or ranting, this is a simple realization of the limits of my playing ability. However, if a fairly average player like myself who is no noob when it comes to games of this sort can't hack it, I fear for the future of this game given who it's publisher is.
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			Other MMOs will not prepare you for Wildstar. You're pretty much starting from scratch so, don't be so hard on yourself.	
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LOL. story is important said what % of mmorpg players? Story is better left to single player rpgs... there is nothing immersive about finally ending the tyranny of Lord ____ only to keep ending it a few times a night because you can't find the sword he's very clearly beating you with everytime. Or saving a cute cuddly species from certain extinction only to have another "hero" having the same conversation with their leader word for word and when you ask the young hero "smoq bluntZ" if you should unite for the greater good he says "get rekt m8"
 
 
Been playing mmorpgs since 99' dude... Been playing PEN AND PAPER DUNGEONS AND DRAGOND since 95' if you want story and a REAL ROLE PLAYING EXPERIENCE find friends irl and buy some dice... not ride some railroad adventure where you're scrying on your other self through a mystical glass only to feel like everything seems to be skipping around, because your gpu sucks	
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LOL. story is important said what % of mmorpg players? Story is better left to single player rpgs... there is nothing immersive about finally ending the tyranny of Lord ____ only to keep ending it a few times a night because you can't find the sword he's very clearly beating you with everytime. Or saving a cute cuddly species from certain extinction only to have another "hero" having the same conversation with their leader word for word and when you ask the young hero "smoq bluntZ" if you should unite for the greater good he says "get rekt m8"
 
 
Been playing mmorpgs since 99' dude... Been playing PEN AND PAPER DUNGEONS AND DRAGOND since 95' if you want story and a REAL ROLE PLAYING EXPERIENCE find friends irl and buy some dice... not ride some railroad adventure where you're scrying on your other self through a mystical glass only to feel like everything seems to be skipping around, because your gpu sucks
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I love ff6 and crono tr8gger, but in a pen and paper rpg YOU decide exactly what go do/make. In ff6/CT in both games I preferred characters other than the main and wished the story was more geared towards theirs... can't because you know... story is hard coded into the game... if pen and paper and playing through an snes rpg have the same effect then your dm was captain railroad, or you simply played some starter kit one night and started telling everyone you play dnd. Or you're bluffing altogether, not sure.
 
I actually couldn't stand terra tbh, whiney and dramatic... I would rather have joined ultros and between him and setter become airship pirates in serch for ye esperz	
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 Story is better left to single player rpgs... 
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Half of the population of FFXIV log in every patch just because of the story and then have a break. Hence why it was a huge deal when the last patch only introduced 2 hours of story. FantasticCupcake is right with this one. 
 
On the other hand, from server populations and achievements people estimate that there's 1 to 2 million concurrent subscribers playing FFXIV, but only 200K even bothered with casual raids and only 1/4th of that bothered with actual raids. 
 
You can prance around all you want about how it's good that there's only one way to progress, how nobody deserves the same iLvl as the raiders, about how everyone should raid, but...
 
https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/147554-carbine-people-are-quitting-your-game-again-please-just-merge-all-the-region-servers/page-1
 
this is back. We're two months into F2P and it's back already.
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This is one of those things were we just need more. This past year really didn't see much in the way of updates or truly new content for anyone, and that shined the light even brighter on the problems and flaws. What else do we have to focus on after doing the same content over and over and over and over again? Not much...
 
I'm hoping that 2016 sees a lot of improvements; including Redmoon, new story zones, maybe some new Expeditions and Dungeons, a wider variety of Contracts (Seriously, the rotation sucks lately and it's just not "fun" at all) and also looking forward to the PvP matchmaking updates too! I'm sure those will go over well. I'd love to see more hobbies and side things to do like hoverboard racing and the like...it's hugely popular and everyone loves to do that kind of stuff!
 
More story, just more. This game didn't survive with the "YEAH! 40 MANS! UBER ELITE HARDCORE!" idea, I see people asking about "what is there to do?" all the time...I'm hoping Drop 7 is a major one and we get some much needed stuff to start building out the world. Games that focus too much on area just don't last.	
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I like the story.  Raids really don't have to much story though, seriously, there's maybe 2 10s cutscenes in DS and 1 in GA and not really to much story driven.  And what does having the raid gear have anything to do with the story?  Maybe I'm reading it wrong.  Yes, there's story, but that's what omnicore was put in for.  Omnicore has so much more in story than DS does.  But honestly, there's alot of story to this game, and shows in all the lore and the datacubes.  But honestly, how many have read the datacubes?  
 
And so reading all the posts, its the same argument once again.  World content should give the same gear as raiding.  I could get on board if the difficulty of doing this is equal to the time it would take to obtain a full set of raid gear.  I don't see that happening.  I'll put the hours in perspective and tell me if this is a reach.
 
Take GA into effect.  Most guilds now are clearing it in under 3 weeks easily.  That's not even everyone fully geared, and I mean everyone.  Add a couple more weeks onto that because of ohmna weapons, than most have the gear to go to DS.  So 5 weeks to get iLvl 100 gear.
 
Now, add in DS level gear.  Until f2p, it was taking guilds 6 months to get to Avatus.  Now, it's maybe 4 months at the earliest, but still around 5 months and thats guilds doing 4 nights/4hours.  That's after killing SD.  But most people are mostly full 120 prior to doing Avatus (4 months to get to), the only thing they wont have are Weapons, and possibly some of the WA, SS, Implant.  Last guild to kill Avatus, killed SD on 4/30/15, and downed Avatus 11/19/2015.  6 1/2 months.  The fastest was the top guild in the world took 3 months to get to Avatus and that was pulling stupid amount of hours and most fights were bugged so can't really use them as data for this.  Add in a month or more and that's 4 months to down DS.
 
1 month of doing GA than another 5 to do DS (add a few weeks for everyone to get 120 weapons) @ 3 nights/4 hours.  That's 26 weeks, 12 hours a week, total of 312 hours on the high range, low range probably half that now with the nerfs to DS that have gone thru, so 150 hours.  Can you see a single player spending 312 hours to get bis gear?  Add in having to have 19 other players to obtain this gear, do you add their time into it?  That's starting fresh.  Not being "carried" for better gear.  So 6 months to get gear to be on same level as DS raiders.  Yeah, I do not see that happening at all.  How much time should a single player spend to get the gear that is equal to raiders?
 
(The 2 days a week, 3 hours a each day, that's 6 hours.  Most likely that guild is not going to be downing Avatus in 4 months.  I know of one guild that does the 2 days a week, and they are still on SD and been on him for a month and almost have him down.  Guild doing 4 nights, will most likely take 2 weeks depending on how good their gear is from GA.)
 
*Also, on the leveling time, it's to fast.  I agree, but to many complained saying it took to long.
			
				
	Edited November 27, 2015 by Orrestes	
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World content should eventually give it, yep. You're ignoring disparity entirely. If gear, and the challenge, doesn't go up in the open world for non raiders, what's the draw?
 
Right now there just isn't enough depth to the game. For new players? Probably, but the shine will wear off with how fast leveling to 50 is now.
 
Speaking of that, it was too long for many before because the quests were very samey and most of the combat really didn't involve much variety.	
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So 6 months to get gear to be on same level as DS raiders.  Yeah, I do not see that happening at all.  
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So some players complained about the story, that's a prime example showing me clearly that story is super important to the mmo crowd! Ohh wait, except people are complaining here and that number is amazingly small. Especially in proporation ti people complaining about engi tanks in pvp... this game must be all about engi tanks, and quests are second rate
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You may find this quote from a LotRO community manager relevant in understanding how representative the forum population is of the overall playerbase in MMORPGs.
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			Never mind 
			
				
	Edited November 28, 2015 by Vanguardian	
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You do realize that you're having this conversation with non-raiders who have been here continuously since launch, right? 
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I love ff6 and crono tr8gger, but in a pen and paper rpg YOU decide exactly what go do/make. In ff6/CT in both games I preferred characters other than the main and wished the story was more geared towards theirs... can't because you know... story is hard coded into the game... if pen and paper and playing through an snes rpg have the same effect then your dm was captain railroad, or you simply played some starter kit one night and started telling everyone you play dnd. Or you're bluffing altogether, not sure.
 
I actually couldn't stand terra tbh, whiney and dramatic... I would rather have joined ultros and between him and setter become airship pirates in serch for ye esperz
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How difficult is it to just write 'Chrono Trigger', hmm? What's with the random 8 in there; that's not even 1337-sp34k or whatever.
 
Different people like different games. Something like the old-school SNES RPGs are very heavily oriented towards those who enjoy a good story. I'd hardly say that the annihilation of an entire species and being exploited and used as a weapon would make someone 'whiny and dramatic' but whatever works for you. Nuance does not seem to be your forte.
 
A game that has several playable female characters, a primary female protagonist, a yeti-monster, and a moogle as playable characters is pretty awesome to me. Still shocked that they had the guts to show a woman chained up in a dungeon and getting beaten to a pulp by enemy soldiers. In a Nintendo game no less. Absolutely crazy stuff at the time but a great story.
 
Open-ended games back then were hampered by limited cartridge space, but considering how much stuff there was to do in FF6 outside of the main storyline, I'd say they did a fantastic job with it.
 
Perhaps any Witcher/Elder Scrolls/Fallout game might be open-ended enough for you.
 
Maybe even 'Open World: The Video Game' aka 'Mad Max' might be something that you'd find interesting to check out. Difficult to easily reproduce an experience like that in pen & paper.
 
I grant that the pure random freedom to do absurd things in pen & paper is not easily duplicated in video games, but we've come as close as possible while still having a fantastic experience. Besides, any DM worth their salt would just say 'no you can't do that' to keep the momentum of the game going instead of letting the pace grind to a halt because you want to cast Divine Wish or whatever. Some DMs are more liberal with the rules than others.
 
I figure if I'm going to play pretend, I'd rather do it playing a video game rather than sitting around a table with a bunch of drunk dudebros throwing dice and turning everything into a phallic joke.
 
As far as WildStar is concerned, I would hope that the OP will find joy in other aspects of the game outside of hardcore raiding.
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			So I've literally spent WEEKS worth of time (usually in 3-4) hours doing the last bossin SC (my favorite fight btw), and the fire *cupcake* boss in SSM. Yes, they're hard, and yes they can take a long time to master. It's part of what I love about this game :) So I'd agree with others, don't be discouraged. If you had gotten it the first couple of times, honestly I'd be very very impressed. 	
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So I've literally spent WEEKS worth of time (usually in 3-4) hours doing the last bossin SC (my favorite fight btw), and the fire *cupcake* boss in SSM. Yes, they're hard, and yes they can take a long time to master. It's part of what I love about this game :) So I'd agree with others, don't be discouraged. If you had gotten it the first couple of times, honestly I'd be very very impressed.
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So I've literally spent WEEKS worth of time (usually in 3-4) hours doing the last bossin SC (my favorite fight btw), and the fire *cupcake* boss in SSM. Yes, they're hard, and yes they can take a long time to master. It's part of what I love about this game :) So I'd agree with others, don't be discouraged. If you had gotten it the first couple of times, honestly I'd be very very impressed. 
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SC takes like 15 minutes. Beating it the first time can be difficult for some... are you really asking for the gamr to be based on players who struggle with th let mechanics AND don't play often/long?
 
Looks like you'll have to do what I did and focus on pvp because I'm realistic with my work schedule. If you want to progress without learning how to play thwn farm plat in tour casual shiphands/dailies/whatever	
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Raids are the hardest thing in the game... why would you want the 2nd hardest thing in the game to be a blow through? Learning the games mechanics is pretty universal... I can que any dungeon and just stay out of red, hit the target everyone else is hitting and not have a problem... if you get used to the combat then it translates to all the dungeons
 
 
Since when did difficulty stop being the next step in games? Why should things stay easy? Final boss! Just kidding, he's the same difficulty as the starter quests so everyone with no time cab "experience" him (see his animations?)	
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SC takes like 15 minutes. Beating it the first time can be difficult for some... are you really asking for the gamr to be based on players who struggle with th let mechanics AND don't play often/long?
 
Looks like you'll have to do what I did and focus on pvp because I'm realistic with my work schedule. If you want to progress without learning how to play thwn farm plat in tour casual shiphands/dailies/whatever
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			 carbine thought players would man up and do it, the content is not that hard, should i stream my first attempt at proto games for you? I haven't even been PvPing lately I've been glued to my plot lately, so should I solo queue the hardest dungeon having never seen it? I've mainly been farming STL and other than STL the only vet dungeon I've completed since f2p was skull Kano... People who think the game is too hard refuse to learn how the game works and just want to show up and mash their buttons at it	
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We're calling for more content for people to be able to a take break from just grinding the crap out of the same 6 Dungeons, Shiphands, and Adventures (which no one runs anyway). How hard is this concept to understand?
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Veteran versions of Riot in the Void and Hycrest Insurrection would be pretty awesome too. There's no reason to restrict either to just one faction, since the story is entirely a simulation anyway.
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We're calling for more content for people to be able to a take break from just grinding the crap out of the same 6 Dungeons, Shiphands, and Adventures (which no one runs anyway). How hard is this concept to understand?
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The deveopers have been creating exactly that content since launch, but a new raid tier is needed.
 
And I'm perfectly happy, and in fact would LOVE to see, a new easier raid tier for players with less time. But at this point, yes, a new raid tier needs to come out.
 
As for that quote, you realize he's talking about easing the steep climb. That the leveling content was too hard for new players getting into the game, and they've tried to address that?
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As for that quote, you realize he's talking about easing the steep climb. That the leveling content was too hard for new players getting into the game, and they've tried to address that?
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So should I infer from this that you think the steep climb ends when a player hits 50?
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I agree. Anybody who has ever watched a DS raider blast through a zone understands very clearly how trivial the content is to that player, how efficiently they can farm it, and how rapidly they can blow through their contracts and other elements of grinding.
 
Which is fundamentally what we're talking about, since most players have done the content they really want to do a few weeks after the drop is released unless it's content that they have only limited access to, like raids or OMNICore-1. After that, it's no longer about the challenge of getting through the content, because the content has already been taken down. At that point, it's all about the farm. And if there's one thing that raid gear is really useful for, it's farming. Because, as you say, it makes all other content almost trivial. So people who have it can blow through other content very quickly, acquire resources at a much faster rate, and win every economic contest they're ever in with people who don't have it and can't similarly blow through their farming as quickly or efficiently.
 
This game, at this time, gives people with raid gear have a 20-30 iLevel edge in farming over people who don't. And if the iLevels on non-raid content stay the same but new raid tiers progressively advance into better gear, that gap only will get wider when the next raid tier comes.
 
And if it gets wide enough, it becomes clear to everyone that the only way to really be able to compete economically in the game is to be a raider. And when that happens, everyone who isn't a raider has a clear incentive to do one of two things: either become a raider, or leave the game.
 
That's why this:
is the real issue. It's not whether or not anyone needs raid gear to complete non-raid content. It's that nobody needs it to complete non-raid content, but some people have it and can use it to do so anyway.
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Raiders invest a lot of time, yes. However, that's also a HUGE problem with Wildstar as leveling is just so fast. In most other games it takes double or triple the time to get to level cap as it does here. That aside, no one is saying that non-Raiders need i116 or i120 gear (or whatever it is for Redmoon when it happens). What we are saying is that the Open World must keep pace. I don't even understand why i116 and i120 gear is sellable on the AH at all. It shouldn't be as I have no reason as a non-Raider to have that at this moment in time.
 
Right now, you can get ilvel90/100 gear from World Bosses or Contracts. That's okay. However, once the T3 Raid comes out, the disparity comes into play again. Now, it shouldn't be that it's just given to Open World players either, the new story zones in the world should be harder and geared for the higher ilvl gear. This is how Open World Progression works. Maybe that then gives the OWPvE player 116 gear. Would make sense. Only until T4 Raids come out should they get the lower end of that level.
 
That's all we're really saying. If the only gear that progresses in level is soley for Raiders the disparity grows HUGE and the rest of the game's difficulty just stays the same forever, which sucks and usually drives people away in droves.
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SO the suggestion is players who do super easy, boring, trivial open-world content should have gear similar to people who can kill system daemons?  I think this is an incredibly silly notion.  "Oh, i get great gear for essentially no effort" - i don't get it man, i really don't.
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Ok - read up on this thread-
 
Gearing:  I actually think gear is fine.  the ilv90 gear from WBs (intending to step between dungeons and raids) is the biggest failure right now.  They are better but a huge pain to get.  Same with the ilv 100 contract gear.  It's more effort than doing a dungeon - sure - but it's not really bridging the gap.
 
How do you get into raiding?  We take players we like and want to gear up and just straight-up carry them through GA.  People complain about accessibility (another thread) but there are TONS of pug GAs that will take you to x89, which is 5 major upgrades if you haven't raided before, plus the drops throughout ga.  Even if the group isn't great and can only do 5/6 GA, it's a lot of gear that drops and can be helpful.
 
This is partially power-creep and senority of raiding.  There are a large number of players out there with well geared alts (of my 12 sets of gear, only one is below 100), who are running raids and dungeons quite regularly.
 
Quest Mapping:  I think people hit 50 and go into dungeons too fast.  Expeditions, adventures, crafted gear, etc.. .all help with that, but unless you join a guild you will just never learn the dungeon.  While some PUGS are nice, most are impatient.  I personally don't mind explaining fights, but if the team has terrible DPS or stands in bad constantly, I will probably leave.  I will at least normally advise them to run expeditions and rune, but anytime when i'm beating the DPS as the tank is obviously a problem.
 
In my opinion THIS IS THE BIGGEST PROBLEM.  It's the jump from questing to dungeons is HUGE, and while there are intermediate steps (expeditions/adventures/world bosses), no one really does them.  I've pugged adventures for contracts and they were fun!  I don't mind them, but i got absolutely nothing out of doing them.  I _shouldn't_ at my level of gear progression, name you, but i think if the costumes/decor in adventures were really cool people would actually do them.  (nice idea?  carbin plz).
 
Dungeons to Raids:
 
Here's the thing, if you want to raid you gotta find a guild.  I get this doesn't work for everyone.  I know some people have weird time constraints. (that guy who is available 3am-7am, i think LP starts at 6am?  Timless starts at 5am EST.  Try that?), but for the grand majority of players, there are tons of guilds raiding and recruiting after dinner (8pm est) all the way to implausable (2am-5am, EST), then the oceanic guilds come on.  There are time zones out there for you!
 
What is necessary is good mechanics, and sometimes players think "oh, I've attuned, now i'm ready to raid."  No, you're not.  New players need to run dungeons more than once to get decent at the mechanics.  Sometimes i see players who get attuned, but don't interrupt and stand in bad and die, so i tell them, go practice more.  If you aren't ready, that's FINE.  It's not a problem, it's just people seem to want to RUSH to raids, when it's intended to be a progression.
 
More content for non-raids:
 
Probably yes.  I think making the redmoon raid would be awesome, and it's supposed to be post-datascape, but the issue is ONLY 20 GUILDS HAVE KILLED AVATUS.  It's essentially content for less than 1000 people.  I think only four guilds have killed hardmentors?  maybe more (it's not tracked on wildstarprogress).  While some of the seasoned raiders are looking forward to the new raid tier, i guess i would agree we need something more in the middle.
 
I also think we should tier the dungeons.  a newer player in STL or KV?  sure, i don't mind that.  The other day i had a 90-minute vet academy (not exaggerating), because certain players were new/inexperienced and not playing well.  It was torture.  I go in there with a guild group?  16 minutes and done.  There should be a way for players to know that not all dungeons are equal.  There really should be a bit of a progression there.
 
Personally - i think instanced world bosses would solve a lot of the issues.  Then they would serve their intended function (stepping stone between dungeons and raids).  Also, what i can see, the mechanics seem interesting and would be awesome to experience in some non-zergfest.
 
I think this would require the LEAST amount of coding and help the MOST people.  Carbin plz.	
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The issue here - raiders have put in more time/effort/skill/ability/whatever into getting that gear and learning how to use it.  Of course, better effort and skill SHOULD garner better rewards.  The meritocracy element of a MMO might be the best part of it.  You get what you earn.
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Sooner or later, one of three outcomes is going to happen:
There will be a gear progression for people who aren't raiders that overlaps with and even exceeds the existing raids.
Or, raiders will become so overpowered as new raid tiers allow them to outgear the current non-raid content even more than they already do that that nothing outside of a raid will be of any interest to them at all and the playerbase will go from raiders and nonraiders to raidloggers and nonraiders.
Or, new raid tiers will have no further gear progression beyond current existing raids.
There's really no getting around that reality short of disaster scenarios like "the game goes offline". So which of the three do you think will best achieve a healthy, viable MMORPG?
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I understand the sentiment. I liked this game a lot till I started playing FFXIV. I played WildStar since beta. Problem is the game lacks content for casuals. There's only 4 (now 5?) dungeons. That's way too little. The concept of adventures turned out to be a failure as they are just beyond tedious. It's wasted space. Nowadays I mostly play WildStar for the player housing which is its best feature and unfortunately not for the group content.
 
I was a silver medalist of the vet dungeons back in the day and got attuned the old way, but then my guild broke up and no way I'm going in those vet dungeons again with pugs, so pretty much there is nothing for me to do unless they release another blighthaven-like area. I don't have the time to commit to a guild at the moment, and even if I did, I feel as though I fell way too behind compared to the people who play it everyday. WildStar is a good game. It just lacks group content for casuals. And no, those vet shiphands do not count as group content. I want to see the same amount of content in this game as FFXIV with incentives for people to go back to leveling dungeons and everything. It's a feast and everyone has fun.
 
Those 4-5 dungeons in WildStar simply aren't fun. They're too stressful. When things are stressful they aren't fun. So it's not that I can't do them (I'm a silver medalist), I would rather just not stress myself out constantly in pugs or even in guilds. The developers had a huge ego with regard to content difficulty, and they have to drop it if this game is to survive, even as a f2p game.	
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As for that quote, you realize he's talking about easing the steep climb. That the leveling content was too hard for new players getting into the game, and they've tried to address that?
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The issue here - raiders have put in more time/effort/skill/ability/whatever into getting that gear and learning how to use it. Of course, better effort and skill SHOULD garner better rewards. The meritocracy element of a MMO might be the best part of it. You get what you earn.
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Learning how to use it? What more is there to learn than equip, rune, go kill? There's really no learning curve on gear itself. Stats and runes, maybe, but that's Carbine not explaining things clearly again. (Another huge issue with things at 50.)
 
Again, no one is going to argue the risk/reward stuff here. It makes total sense that Raiders have higher powered gear. The point I was making is that eventually, key word there, things will eclipse DS gear. It's inevitable to happen as new content and raid tiers come online.
 
It happens in every game, it has to in order to keep disparity in check. That said, we're not there yet but it will happen. There is no doubt on that and the ways to get that gear for non raiders will be harder too...If not, this game has much bigger issues.
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My strikethrough is too high for a deflect like that to work, Jeff.
 
Your argument is that the leveling game was so hard that new players got blasted out of the game on the way up from level 1 to level 50 because the climb was too steep for them.
 
Is the endgame climb easier, about the same as, or harder than the leveling climb?
 
Because if your argument is truly that the leveling climb was too steep for most players, then quite honestly this game is dead in the water because the leveling game is really really easy in comparison to the endgame.
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			I don't see many GA pugs and I assume they're a trap... I guess I'm not on the pve server though hahahaive even considered transferring until they fix arena... its bad atm​	
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I was talking about dungeons while leveling.
 
Even at that, quests-expeditions-adventures-vet dungeons-WBs-GA-DS is a nice ramp up in difficulty.
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			vet dungeons are easier now regardless due to power creep. we had way worse access to runes, and way worse gear... even if you go in wearing some crafted 72's with a fresh group they are very literally easier in many ways, dps included.	
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