109693-the-lets-get-this-over-with-mentality

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Note: My goal is to hear people’s opinions and have a discussion, not troll. I love Wildstar.
 
However, I see Wildstar suffering from the “let’s get this over with” mentality (this isn’t a problem specific to Wildstar it has been a problem with MMO’s for awhile).
 
For example, you just load up a fresh character and you think “alright, I need to get to 50. Let’s just get this over with”.
You enter a battleground and you think “alright, let’s just get this over with so I can get my points”.
You enter a dungeon and you think “alright, let’s just get this over with so I can get my lewts”.
You pick up all the dailies and think “alight, let’s get this over with so I can go do something else”.
 
I know this isn’t just me because it is common to see “LFM, speed run. Be geared and know the fights” in chat all the time.
 
Anyway, my point is, how can we break out of this mentality? Is it the player base, the game developers, or both?	
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			I have an idea.... less work hours in a day (resulting in more hours of play)!	
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Note: My goal is to hear people’s opinions and have a discussion, not troll. I love Wildstar.
 
However, I see Wildstar suffering from the “let’s get this over with” mentality (this isn’t a problem specific to Wildstar it has been a problem with MMO’s for awhile).
 
For example, you just load up a fresh character and you think “alright, I need to get to 50. Let’s just get this over with”.
You enter a battleground and you think “alright, let’s just get this over with so I can get my points”.
You enter a dungeon and you think “alright, let’s just get this over with so I can get my lewts”.
You pick up all the dailies and think “alight, let’s get this over with so I can go do something else”.
 
I know this isn’t just me because it is common to see “LFM, speed run. Be geared and know the fights” in chat all the time.
 
Anyway, my point is, how can we break out of this mentality? Is it the player base, the game developers, or both?
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			It's the player's mentality, but it's the developers nurturing it. Game systems should be in place in such a way that activities should feel fun and engaging in and of themselves, and not chores. It's hard to draw that line in the sand where you ask what's wrong with the players when something is pretty fun though.	
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its more of a mentality towards life in general for a lot of people.  
Not just this game, or the gaming industry.  
Also, I have yet to find a cure for this.  I am happily not affected by it though :)	
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One of these threads... alrigt , let's just get this over with so I can get my upvotes. :P
 
To be honest understand this mentality for repetitive stuff like dailies or things that don't need much thinking at all. Even the most daunting dungeon will end up being one of those "let this get over with" scenarios. That's just normal and I don't think there is anything you can do about it except being a *cupcake* to other players who might not feel the same way.	
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Honestly I don't think you can do much about that. It's a much larger social aspect than a game can fix. Patience and enjoying the journey isn't exactly something a lot of people do these days, or at least it's what I'm seeing from generally.The best a game can do is just try to make the journey enjoyable. Fun quests, fun dialogue, etc...but honestly in a culture that is so "go,go,go" some people will still want to get to that end point as fast as they can.
 
You get some people that will basically gobble their food.
While you get others who will take their time, enjoy the meal and that moment they have.
 
For me and a few others we've not had a problem with Wildstar other than pointing out a few things here and there overall. We took our time enjoyed the subtleties and liked a lot of what we saw. I feel like some folks sometimes just get so caught up in constantly being on the go that "slowing down" is unheard of...it leads to stress and burn out(which is what I feel is causing a lot of problems for people).
 
Basically Wildstar can't fix that mentality, all they can do is just keep on going and make it as good a game as they can.
 
This isn't to say that "let's get this over with" isn't caused by other factors though. I myself ONLY go to Malgrave trail if someone ask me to tank it, because that place bores me to death lol. So in those situations its more of "how can we make this more fun and engaging!"
			
				
	Edited August 20, 2014 by Typrop	
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Note: My goal is to hear people’s opinions and have a discussion, not troll. I love Wildstar.
 
However, I see Wildstar suffering from the “let’s get this over with” mentality (this isn’t a problem specific to Wildstar it has been a problem with MMO’s for awhile).
 
For example, you just load up a fresh character and you think “alright, I need to get to 50. Let’s just get this over with”.
 
Leveling in this game was just meh for me, gave me the SWTOR effect, bunch of instances that didn't seem at all connected to a planet called Nexus.
 
You enter a battleground and you think “alright, let’s just get this over with so I can get my points”.
 
Maybe for practice I suppose, but not rbg.  Problem players find themselves in is putting their rating on hold to farm out practice bg's win/lose for prestige to jump back into rbg.
 
You enter a dungeon and you think “alright, let’s just get this over with so I can get my lewts”.
 
Carbine takes the cake w/this one, hardcore.
 
You pick up all the dailies and think “alight, let’s get this over with so I can go do something else”.
 
After two dozen times of doing these getting them knocked out as fast as possible is just being efficient w/your time. 
 
I know this isn’t just me because it is common to see “LFM, speed run. Be geared and know the fights” in chat all the time.
 
Anyway, my point is, how can we break out of this mentality? Is it the player base, the game developers, or both?
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I can agree w/that, getting from A to B the most efficient way has been apart of gaming as long as I can remember.  Got to take in consideration speed runs and a focus on engame from the devs in game w/content & marketing fostered this mentality.
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One of these threads... alrigt , let's just get this over with so I can get my upvotes. :P
 
To be honest understand this mentality for repetitive stuff like dailies or things that don't need much thinking at all. Even the most daunting dungeon will end up being one of those "let this get over with" scenarios. That's just normal and I don't think there is anything you can do about it except being a *cupcake* to other players who might not feel the same way.
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Well... WoW was a blessing and a curse to most MMOs and the generation playing it.
 
I wonder if Minecraft or Skyrim would have been dominating the market earlier, what would our generation play like, or demand qualities in games.
 
We are set to instant rewards and action, that is what you get delivered, and what leads to your described problem.
If something is not instant we experience it as a grind, no matter how "small" of a grind that really is.
 
When more games lead you to a more satisfiying experience if you put in more effort (not neccessarily time), people will learn to cherish the time spent more than the reward.	
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I have to say the best cure for this is to make and play with friends.  Corny as it sounds everything is more fun when you're having fun with the people you're doing it with.  When the activity is a chance to hang out with people that you like then the goal becomes somewhat less the driving force.  Then reaching the goal  together is the goal and it isn't as much getting it over with as it is lets have a adventure.
 
As to what developers can do? I don't know, my best guess is several legit ways to attain goals and of course several ways to have something that feels like a win.  The issue comes back to shiny things though, and if what people consider shiny and important come from what they do not enjoy whelp that lets get this over with mentality creeps back in.  So different paths to somewhat comperable goals and for those path to be of comperable challenge.
 
It's pretty hard to do though, as long as the path isn't the goal this will be the way of things.  	
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I think it's a problem with MMO's having an "end points". You hit max level, that is an "end". Finish dailies, that is an "end". 
 
Games need some sort of content that doesn't necessarily have a clear cut start or end point. Which is easier said than done. 	
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I don't think this mentality had it's roots in any form of gaming; gaming follows people, not the other way around. People, with increased technology, lost their patience and became accustomed to the go,go,go grind in their daily lives... and it bled into the games that were subsequently made and played. 
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			I think Wildstar was trying to break this mentality, but you can see what kind of shitstorm it summoned instead. I'm personally not affected by this mentality, I take my sweet time and enjoy things. I think the biggest problem is, that players actually get rewarded for that kind of mentality. Unfortunately there is nothing you can do against it, because those players are also filling the purse of the devs. :unsure:	
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My arcade and grocery store gaming as a kid was all about timed runs, speed kills, fastest ko's, etc...
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			Ugh lets get this post overwith	
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			Its the casual infection.  "Gamers" who don't actually like to game, but really just want to feed their addiction to getting "stuff".  Doesn't even really matter what the stuff is, they just need to get a little popup telling them they got something so they can feel special.  Very few of them play the game for the sake of playing the game.  Traditional staples of any game...strategy, thought, research, trial and error...are undesirable to the casual.  They are the 'push button to win' crowd, not actual gamers.  They invade every MMO demanding the game caters to them because "WE ARE THE 99%!", and then like a plague of locust they consume all the mind-numbingly easy content, complain there is nothing to do and then leave to ruin another MMO.  EQNext is dead before it started thanks to the casual scourge.  EvE is the only safehaven for true MMO gamers, as the casuals find the lack of bright, sparkly colors to be off-putting. 	
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Contra had a time limit? Galaga was a speed run? asteroids needed a fastest kill?
 
I guess you have an interesting way of looking at things... Some racing sims had 'speed' runs; and MK had a timer so that you couldn't just avoid eachother for hours and win / lose that way.... But when you lost in the arcade; you didn't run home crying, you got yourself another handful of change and went back at it. 
 
Arcades... the Original microtransaction masters....
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Well... WoW was a blessing and a curse to most MMOs and the generation playing it.
 
We are set to instant rewards and action, that is what you get delivered, and what leads to your described problem.
If something is not instant we experience it as a grind, no matter how "small" of a grind that really is.
 
When more games lead you to a more satisfying experience if you put in more effort (not necessarily time), people will learn to cherish the time spent more than the reward.
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We might both be misinterpreting this, but when I was growing up in a smaller town in upstate NY, most grocery stores and shops like Woolworth's had 1 or 2 arcade games in the entryway for kids while their parents shopped. If it was a quick trip in the grocery  store, you weren't going to finish TMNT and get to beat Shredder on one coin, or no matter how many quarters you may throw at it, so that might be the time limit he's referring to.
 
 
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Contra had a time limit? Galaga was a speed run? asteroids needed a fastest kill?
 
I guess you have an interesting way of looking at things... Some racing sims had 'speed' runs; and MK had a timer so that you couldn't just avoid eachother for hours and win / lose that way.... But when you lost in the arcade; you didn't run home crying, you got yourself another handful of change and went back at it. 
 
Arcades... the Original microtransaction masters....
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			Short and sweet. I would only care about that mentality if it was found in raids.	
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It was more like Super Mario Bros., DuckHunt, Tetris, Pacman, Mortal Kombat, Street fighter, RC, MegaMan, etc..I can imagine different players have different gaming experiences.
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Not sure we can. Society has moved on from a position of patience, community, and teamwork to PuGs, solo play, and desiring purple squares, not fun gameplay. Can fix a game all you like, but it's much harder if not impossible to fix people.
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Note: My goal is to hear people’s opinions and have a discussion, not troll. I love Wildstar.
 
However, I see Wildstar suffering from the “let’s get this over with” mentality (this isn’t a problem specific to Wildstar it has been a problem with MMO’s for awhile).
 
For example, you just load up a fresh character and you think “alright, I need to get to 50. Let’s just get this over with”.
You enter a battleground and you think “alright, let’s just get this over with so I can get my points”.
You enter a dungeon and you think “alright, let’s just get this over with so I can get my lewts”.
You pick up all the dailies and think “alight, let’s get this over with so I can go do something else”.
 
I know this isn’t just me because it is common to see “LFM, speed run. Be geared and know the fights” in chat all the time.
 
Anyway, my point is, how can we break out of this mentality? Is it the player base, the game developers, or both?
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Do not agree, would not 'like' in a million years
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I have to agree with Nazryn here.  We're moving further away from the Matrix and more towards Idiocracy at this rate.  One of my interns, when asked the last book he read, answered "Like, a school book?"  Everyone wants to get to the end of the game and get their gold star.  Where as they should be looking at it like.. the Witcher.  (I love the Witcher.  Little bit of a fan boy.  Whatever.)  The end of the story is NOTHING compared to the epic saga of Geralt!
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I dunno man.  I got to 30, and just decided to complete the other two starter zones for giggles.  Big boost to my path XP, and a grand total of zero XP otherwise.  But it was fun.
 
This arises when you're forced to do the same content over and over to advance.  Like quests that have you just spam-killing in an area for a while (Constructs/Moodie in NW, Dreg/Shards in CB), or quests that are just speed bumps (Crimson Badlands dreg-boat quest).  It was kinda interesting once, and the first 5 times you try and improve your speed.  After you do the quests 10 or 20 times, THAT is when you're perfectly justified to have a "let's get this over with" mindset.
 
Carbine didn't put in any systems to let players generate content.  That's the crux right there, player content is limited to PVP matches and world PVP ganks.  Look at EVE- the systems are quite simple.  If every single EVE player stopped murdering each other tomorrow, the game would be quite boring.
 
But Carbine didn't put in any systems or tools to let players build areas up and tear them down.  So all the content is static.  So after you run it 10 times, and need to run it another infinity times to advance, you'll just want to get it over with so you can go try something new elsewhere.
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Note: My goal is to hear people’s opinions and have a discussion, not troll. I love Wildstar.
 
However, I see Wildstar suffering from the “let’s get this over with” mentality (this isn’t a problem specific to Wildstar it has been a problem with MMO’s for awhile).
 
For example, you just load up a fresh character and you think “alright, I need to get to 50. Let’s just get this over with”.
You enter a battleground and you think “alright, let’s just get this over with so I can get my points”.
You enter a dungeon and you think “alright, let’s just get this over with so I can get my lewts”.
You pick up all the dailies and think “alight, let’s get this over with so I can go do something else”.
 
I know this isn’t just me because it is common to see “LFM, speed run. Be geared and know the fights” in chat all the time.
 
Anyway, my point is, how can we break out of this mentality? Is it the player base, the game developers, or both?
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I'm lucky I'm on Evindra.  We've got bars, arenas, and even race tracks in our public housing plots :)
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Pretty sure there is nothing that can be done, except to do away with endgame, quick leveling, max levels, stuff like that.  Themepark mmos are going to suffer from this, think about going to a themepark, you are not going to ride the same ride over and over, you are going to ride different rides.  This is why themeparks always got boring to me, Wildstar is spicing it up because the combat is so much fun but if it was wow combat then I would be gone, that is boring.  Unfortunately we are divided right now in the gaming industry, sandbox developers think the only way to make a great sandbox is to have open pvp anywhere and full loot and then they don't create a world.  They create a giant pvp arena where people can be douchebags for no reason.  Then we have themeparks that create a great world but cant create diversity in that world so everything gets stale and boring.  Couple this with the mindset of people that have been raised on everyone gets a participation trophy, we don't keep score in games and nobody ever loses in a competitive game and people develop an entitled mentality that some certain games have really fed over the last 8 years or so.  Games used to be tough, they used to take some amount of prep and learning the game.  Even Mario most people couldn't defeat the game the first time through, however in most mmos you can defeat the game the first time through. 
 
MMOs were designed to be long term games, years, not months, they were designed to replace the old pnp games dungeons and dragons where you could live in the fantasy world of your choice, however they have went far from that and became games of weeks or months instead of years.  The designers missed the boat when they started trying to make single player mmos instead of making mmos where you had to have a strong community for it to thrive, like Asherons Call, or ultima, or Everquest.	
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Every day I come a little bit closer to rolling a new medic on Evindra Vic... you guys being so damn awesome are not helping :(
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portal 2 actually demonstrated BIG that a fresh FUN concept can bring players to expect something more of their games.
 
for me its definetly the developers who design boring repetitive shit; instead of FUN engaging content that is fun to repeat for the sake of FUN.
 
Thats why i love PvP for example; although its the same maps, arenas, whatever; each match is different; some good , some short, some good short ones, etc.
 
I think Wildstar has enough in its mechanics to stand out in the future if the devs stop to think; " ok we have this special thing; lets turn it into WoW 2.0"
 
look at what happened with age of conan; they turned it (tried very hard) into a hardcore WoW shit; and funcom its bankrupt right now...
 
I DONT WANT THAT TO HAPPEN TO WILDSTAR
 
 
the combat its mor than fun enough to support a ladder system for pvp and pve; with proper rewards to show off ( for me the ladder is enough, but thats me) it will work, like that tiny little game called League Of Legends...
 
well thats kind off topic; what i mean ITS THE DEVS; MILLIONS OF PEOPLE PLAY THE THING IF THE THING IS GOOD AND FUN; NOT PUNISHING. (LoL again...)	
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I think some of this mentality stems just from the hardcore vs softcore/casual mentality. As Naz stated previously, I do not think we can break away from this mentality.  It's not unique to gaming; it's not unique to society. We see it everywhere we go.
 
Enter grocery store: Alright let's get this over so I can get back and cook dinner.
Cooking dinner: Alight let's get this over with so I can watch [insert show name here] or play [insert game title here]
 
Ironically, we all want time to slow down a bit when we play video games or are doing something we really enjoy. I used to work in the film industry for awhile and I LOVED my 18-hour shifts.  Hardly ever was I wanting to hurry up and get it done, although there were definitely some aspects to certain projects that could have neared that point.  The point is, when we enter the gaming world, we want to enjoy the time spent; we do not necessarily want it to pass by quickly. The games designed today, however, perpetuate a gameplay style reflective of the societal norms of "hurry up and finish." 
 
Going back to the mentality between hardcore/softcore we constantly see this. Rush to get level capped; rush to get gear; rush to get bosses killed; sit around and do nothing until new content arrives; *cupcake* when it has not arrived soon enough. Games reward those that rush everything heavily. I remember raiding in RIFT when Planar Attunement was released.  Being in a top-tiered competitive guild required that I spend several hours a week outside raiding grinding those PA points so that when the new content was released we were far ahead of most players. This hurry up and get this done mentality prepared us far in advance to progress at a more reasonable rate while softcore players took their time. I would not say one group of players enjoyed the content any more or any less than the other group but there was definitely a higher reward rushing content first, (i.e. achievements, server announcements, reputation in community) that is placed on those that do get the content done quicker as opposed to taking the time to enjoy it. Again, I feel this stems to the way games are designed and how rewards are perceived. 
 
More sandbox-y, less theme-park-y games may not have this problem as the options to what constitutes content is far more expansive than the mainstream MMORPG model. Does it deter me from playing games like WoW, RIFT, Wildstar? No, because I enjoy the hurry up and complete things quickly because I enjoy taking on a variety of games that I find challenging and entertaining. Do I wish there was content or gameplay that just lets me enjoy the content without the worries of being the first to achieve nerd points or gain reputation? Of course.
 
Sadly, you will not find much of that in WildStar. Attunement is a hurry up and get to the next step so that content completion means content progression. The faster it is accomplished, the more content is essentially available. This may even result in separating members of the community where some complete dungeons using exploits and trash skipping methods to complete content and then disparage against members that do not have that luxury while struggling to meet timers and beat bosses as intended once exploits and bugs are fixed. What we need more in WildStar, and really in every game (although this is a pipe dream), is more community support for all players no matter how they intend to approach the content/progression. There will, however, always be an elitist class of players that gain more from their epeens than from actually helping build up a strong player base that enjoys the game, ultimately extending the life and success of the game.
 
TL;DR: As stated before, this mentality exists in and out of the realm of gaming. It will not be abolished as long as there are rewards for completing content faster than others. We should stop belittling people that do not share the same mentality and means of enjoying the content. Much love.	
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I'm lucky I'm on Evindra.  We've got bars, arenas, and even race tracks in our public housing plots :)
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I have an idea.... less work hours in a day (resulting in more hours of play)!
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Ya know, while this might have been in jest, it does touch on a real likely contributing factor to this.
 
From my experience, MMO'ers are seeming to be older than they used to be. This means more responsibilities with family, work, "life" stuff. When we log on after putting kids to bed, we are tired and just want to enjoy some time, but here we are again having to run our dailies or fall behind, trying to get a good group to speed through an adventure or be left behind, getting a speed run for a dungeon or get left behind. With our limited time to game now, we're feeling pressured to get in and get out as fast as possible so down the road we will not be too far behind.
 
(note: I'm not knocking the game, just using those tasks/events as examples)
 
Let's change the work week to 4 days of 6 hours!! (then we can just spend the extra time with kids and be in the same boat anyway....ok nevermind)
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Every day I come a little bit closer to rolling a new medic on Evindra Vic... you guys being so damn awesome are not helping :(
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So it comes down to "let's get this over with so we can get to the good stuff." Because if we don't run the dailies or grind the eldan data rations or do whatever else then we'll miss out or get left behind. And if we can't fit that into our lives we'll move on.
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Been there sine the dawn of time. Whenever you repeat content (as you have to do in these games), you want to do it better/faster.
 
It really isn't a problem that when people are running dungeons for the 50th time they want to do speed runs. The problem comes when you mix these folks with others who are just starting in on the content.
 
And of course there are the progression guilds that go for world firsts. That can be a fun way to play the game if you have the time and inclination. Nothing wrong with it.
 
Basically, if people want to level fast or complete dungeons fast, it isn't a moral deficiency. There's no reason to try to change them. And it will happen a lot when you have people repeating content.
 
I took forever to level and I've taken my time progressing through veterans. But that's because I like to play that way.
 
But after beating Stormtalon a few times, I enjoyed running with folks who could do it faster and better.	
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Oh this. 
 
There's players who enjoy the journey and those who just want the carrot. 
Ddo population policed themselves by putting labels on their lfd announcements. 
"zerg. Know it. Vets only" versus 
"flowersniffers. New players welcome. Will do all optional. "
 
Worked so-so bit mostly better than lfd in this game at 50.	
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 If you try to play with friends at 20 some people will invariably outlevel others, and not everyone will want to go back and repeat old content for no experience. 
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			People only have so much time to do things. They have to work, they have other responsibilities besides playing a game.	
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I liked your whole post but just wanted to respond to this point.  Isn't W* supposed to have a level sync system?  Is it not implemented yet, are your friends unwilling to use it, or what?
 
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Its the casual infection.  "Gamers" who don't actually like to game, but really just want to feed their addiction to getting "stuff".  Doesn't even really matter what the stuff is, they just need to get a little popup telling them they got something so they can feel special.  Very few of them play the game for the sake of playing the game.  Traditional staples of any game...strategy, thought, research, trial and error...are undesirable to the casual.  They are the 'push button to win' crowd, not actual gamers.  They invade every MMO demanding the game caters to them because "WE ARE THE 99%!", and then like a plague of locust they consume all the mind-numbingly easy content, complain there is nothing to do and then leave to ruin another MMO.  EQNext is dead before it started thanks to the casual scourge.  EvE is the only safehaven for true MMO gamers, as the casuals find the lack of bright, sparkly colors to be off-putting. 
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Mentoring and leveling down to a dungeon/adventure level results in hilariously low XP for you.
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the difference is not that one group is lazy, its that they take their time and may or may not see all content. doesnt mean they are any less talented.
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			That's what happens when your game is not as fun to play as getting the loot so you can stomp future runs or other undergeared players.	
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I also found that if mentoring down, I make less money helping dungeons than the cost to repair from doing them. In addition, if Elder Gem capped for the week, mentoring xp does not result in any currency gain. Have yet to find a real benefit to mentoring down.
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Biggest reason I stopped playing hardcore in RIFT. Working 18-hour shifts in film industry did not really afford me the time to keep up with doing dailies and raiding so decided it was best to move on. Plus I REALLY enjoyed the work I was doing. Too bad LA is so damn expensive.
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I will agree with the OP on this one, for this reason:
 
I was lead to believe "Hardcore" meant a certain level of difficulty, requiring teamwork and skill. When did the definition of "Hardcore" become "Time Sink"?
 
I've been rolling new toons to escape the monotony of dailies. At no point did I find the difficulty of this game to be even somewhat challenging. That being said, I haven't invested the time to get attuned for raids. So I will say that maybe the raids are difficult, maybe they are "Hardcore". But does having that limited amount of "Hardcore" content really allow Carbine to call this a game as a whole for the "Hardcore"? Sad to say, but the only thing I'm finding difficult at this point is maintaining my waning interest for this game.	
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It's the absolute cancer on the genre, and it's both the developers and players at fault.
 
But the only ones who can fix it are the developers... someone has to be bold enough to draw a line in the sand and say "NO. That's not how you do it. Don't like it? Leave."
 
But that's not a realistic stance when you spend $100 million+ making a game.
 
So it's going to take an indie breakout game to get us out of this funk, and then for the triple-A studios to copy.	
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I will agree with the OP on this one, for this reason:
 
I was lead to believe "Hardcore" meant a certain level of difficulty, requiring teamwork and skill. When did the definition of "Hardcore" become "Time Sink"?
 
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It's the absolute cancer on the genre, and it's both the developers and players at fault.
 
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While I don't necessarily agree with your solutions and MMO vision: Yeah, definitely this. It's terrible.
Someone should write a psychology PHD thesis on how this slowly infested gaming as a whole.
I'd say the advent of achievement/trophy systems was a major part of it.
 
"Why are you collecting all these random doodads? Is this fun for you?"
"Nah I just want to up my gamerscore."
 
So thanks, Microsoft.
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Well lets see. PvP blows in every imaginable way, so you Q up for XP or in the hopes that getting gear will make it better, and endure the pain. PvE side it's kinda the same story with attunements, and a lack of any real loot. I have 3 50s, and aside from the odd piece of blue gear that's a very minor upgrade, I literally have gotten no gear for silvering all the dungeons on all three toons many times.
 
So I run them to attune guildies, lets get this over with, time spent, no gear, a few major signs of air. Cool.
 
Frequent rewards turn, "I have to do this for a quest/someone elses quest" into "let's do this thang, get geared up!". And no, I don't care that you had to grind for 2 months to get one piece of good gear 10 years ago. Wanting loot for busting my ass isn't entitled, it's what keeps me playing.	
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{| class="blockquote"
Well lets see. PvP blows in every imaginable way, 
----
			
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Someone should write a psychology PHD thesis on how this slowly infested gaming as a whole.
----
			
i was suffering from this myself,
 
until I found a guild that knew(knows) what a guild was for.	
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			It tends to happen when you're doing the same thing over and over again.	
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{| class="blockquote"
It tends to happen when you're doing the same thing over and over again.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 “alight, let’s get this over with so I can go do something else”.
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Reminds me of a certain relationship i once had.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
... in bed.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
There's products that can help you with that Vic.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Mmmmm.... Dannon....
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Horny Rowsdower Weed?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Silly Tank.
 
Dannon makes yogurt.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
...in bed.
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{| class="blockquote"
Not sure we can. Society has moved on from a position of patience, community, and teamwork to PuGs, solo play, and desiring purple squares, not fun gameplay. Can fix a game all you like, but it's much harder if not impossible to fix people.
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{| class="blockquote"
Like all hardcore people you assume the reason is solely for gear. But the reason people want to skip past the boring parts is to get to raiding. And while yes, raiding is ultimately about gear most people see raiding as the real game because its where the most people congregate and have fun. They see everything as a build up to that ultimate goal and want to get through it so they can raid and have fun with their friends. People do this because raiding is where people made their fondest memories in most mmos. 
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			I think it has a lot to do with the way the game was developed. Timed dungeons are one of the things that only enforce rushing.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Do people still play for social aspects and fun? I honestly didn't think there were that many left. It's usually for leader boards and bragging rights.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Do people still play for social aspects and fun? I honestly didn't think there were that many left. It's usually for leader boards and bragging rights.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Silly Tank.
 
Dannon makes yogurt.
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{| class="blockquote"
Sounds like a great way to get a UTI.
----
			
Dailies - A chore 
Doing world events - FUN ! Did the Critical Containment event and it was FANTASTIC! even had the dominion horde start a fight, and we ended up leeching their boss and gaining Elder gems and rep for killing theirs. They tried the same on us and got wiped. They did originally wipe us straight after their boss, but they were more :P
 
Anyways more events and situations that put players on their own path is the best. The world events are engaging and fun because the game says " right we need to this and this, go sort yourselves out and decide what you want to do" 
 
Granted the game is not ready to handle too many players on one screen at the moment. It was horrifically laggy but having a swarm of mobs attack cities would be funny as hell. Give the 50's rewards for defending lower level areas as well! With Mech suits the lowbies can get in to help! 
 
SO MUCH can be done in this game!	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
For example, you just load up a fresh character and you think “alright, I need to get to 50. Let’s just get this over with”.
You enter a battleground and you think “alright, let’s just get this over with so I can get my points”.
You enter a dungeon and you think “alright, let’s just get this over with so I can get my lewts”.
You pick up all the dailies and think “alight, let’s get this over with so I can go do something else”.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Like all hardcore people you assume the reason is solely for gear. But the reason people want to skip past the boring parts is to get to raiding. And while yes, raiding is ultimately about gear most people see raiding as the real game because its where the most people congregate and have fun. They see everything as a build up to that ultimate goal and want to get through it so they can raid and have fun with their friends. People do this because raiding is where people made their fondest memories in most mmos. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
so you Q up for XP or in the hopes that getting gear will make it better
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Some said it themselves:
 
 
While for me a game is about passing time and having fun. And fun doesn't necessarily transferrs to doing something better than the last time. If you go out with friends to have a few beers, what loot do you expect?
 
And I personally don't understand why dungeons are boring and a necessary evil. I do the same thing in a dungeon as I would in raids. With the same people as well, just not with all of them at once.
 
...in bed.
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{| class="blockquote"
These words are the problem.
 
- Queue up? No, don't. Put together a team.
- Get gear? No, stop worrying about gear and worry about skill.
 
But this ties back to the original post where players aren't interested in playing correctly in lieu of just "knocking it out" and getting it over with.
 
The mentality has to change.
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{| class="blockquote"
 
However, I understand this sentiment when it comes down to getting the gear.  It would be different if you got a piece of gear and you could make the stats be whatever you wanted them to be or at least optimized for your class and specialty.  The problem comes from getting the piece of gear wanted, but it being worth less than a piece of straight crafted gear you bought with plat because the RNG stats aren't perfect.
 
That's why I advocated building a new loot system around crafting.  Get away from the RNG and get the craftsmen involved.  You've got this great system for making gear into whatever you want it to be, why play around with changing it into something else or keeping dungeon drops separate?  It's like they invented the answer to every game's gear woes in crafting (with a great system I love playing with, by the way!), but just decided to go back to using the less interesting RNG system at the end for some reason.
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If crafted gear trivializes the dungeon content, it's a problem. The primary issue isn't the effort put into it, but how obtainable it is for others who haven't put in effort. When a person can hit 50 and easily outgear stuff just from purchasing stuff on the AH, it lessens the amount of time spent working on content.
 
I have had a lot of fun purchasing gear on the AH and trying it out in dungeons, but it hasn't been fun that most of the drops from dungeons ends up being stuff I can't use.	
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{| class="blockquote"
because they made crafting too decent so all the raiders complained that no one would raid when you can get very good crafted gear. so lets nerf the heck out of crafting because crafters dont put any time into it, they just find a table and *poof* insta perfect gear (I know thats not the case, takes time, effort, knowledge and a lot of money but that was the reasoning)
 
now apparently most of those raiders have left, but crafting is still going to be totally borked
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{| class="blockquote"
 
Well making them a requirement to raid makes them a little necessary to run over and over (for other people) when you're in a raiding guild, it's not like I send out the batsignal to my homies, crack a beer and try for gold dungeons for funsies every night. I do love running dungeons, I find the challenge is just about right to always be on my toes, and it feels great to run through a place quickly and competently. Less so when the new guys wipe over and over while learning and 1.5 hours later you got bronze and nothing to show.
 
If I go out for friends to a bar... my loot is beer. If I go out with friends to a dungeon, my loot is gear.
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{| class="blockquote"
What makes running/wiping raids over and over again any different? How will those other people not wipe in raids for 1,5 hours if they are wiping in dungeons for 1,5 hours? How is there a guaranteed drop for you in any MMO after a bosskill?
 
And I don't go out with friends so I can have a beer, I can have a beer home before TV as well if I want to. Beer is only a part of the "ceremony". And they charge you for a beer.
 
A question: if anyone complains about dailies/rep grind and dungeon grind, why are people going back to WoW, where all you do between raids is do dailies, grind rep, honor, justice and valor (in dungeons), etc....?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
A question: if anyone complains about dailies/rep grind and dungeon grind, why are people going back to WoW, where all you do between raids is do dailies, grind rep, honor, justice and valor (in dungeons), etc....?
----
			Nice point Op.	
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{| class="blockquote"
People only think they hate grinding.  What they hate is gambling.  They don't like running the same dungeon 50 times and finally getting a piece of gear on the 1/50 chance.  But people don't mind running that dungeon 50 times for 50 tokens to buy that piece of gear.  Same time spent, slightly different emphasis.
 
It's weird that way.
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{| class="blockquote"
People only think they hate grinding.  What they hate is gambling.  They don't like running the same dungeon 50 times and finally getting a piece of gear on the 1/50 chance.  But people don't mind running that dungeon 50 times for 50 tokens to buy that piece of gear.  Same time spent, slightly different emphasis.
 
It's weird that way.
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{| class="blockquote"
Sure, but Carbine already said they will rework rune system for example, so they are working on this. And beleive me, I know about the tokens vs. RNG problem, I always geared from tokens... In BC half of my raiding gear was PvP gear because it was usable back then and I didn't have any better drops from raids... But according to raiders on the class forums here, I'm almost raid ready as a tank, and I'm in all random blues from vets, not quite in BiS, since I don't run targeted vets for gear, I only go where I'm needed. I enjoy playing with my guildies, and I don't have anywhere to rush, since we have to get more people trough silvers anyway. But that's just part of the game. You don't complain about a multiplayer FPS not giving you loot, you play it for the gameplay itself. I guess I don't see that much difference in game genres as most people, I'm an 'enjoy the road' type of player. If you hate the gameplay, which running dungeons are a big part of, why do you play in the first place?
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Yes, I don't understand the "grind for a specific piece of loot" idea. I play what is fun and get loot as I go. I was told in another thread that because I don't know the loot tables that my opinion on loot is invalid.
 
But even in other MMOs I never studied the loot table other than a few notable items. Mostly I just enjoyed the content and took whatever upgrades I came across.
 
I sure don't plan to do Malgrave trail 100 times looking for {x piece of very important loot}.	
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{| class="blockquote"
I'm an "enjoy the road, but finding a dollar on the sidewalk every now and then is pretty fun" type of guy.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I'm an "enjoy the road, but finding a dollar on the sidewalk every now and then is pretty fun" type of guy.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Sure, but Carbine already said they will rework rune system for example, so they are working on this. And beleive me, I know about the tokens vs. RNG problem, I always geared from tokens... In BC half of my raiding gear was PvP gear because it was usable back then and I didn't have any better drops from raids... But according to raiders on the class forums here, I'm almost raid ready as a tank, and I'm in all random blues from vets, not quite in BiS, since I don't run targeted vets for gear, I only go where I'm needed. I enjoy playing with my guildies, and I don't have anywhere to rush, since we have to get more people trough silvers anyway. But that's just part of the game. You don't complain about a multiplayer FPS not giving you loot, you play it for the gameplay itself. I guess I don't see that much difference in game genres as most people, I'm an 'enjoy the road' type of player. If you hate the gameplay, which running dungeons are a big part of, why do you play in the first place?
----
			
In past games, whenever I started a new content tier, almost everything that dropped for my class was an upgrade, even if minor. After a few runs, I didn't really get any more upgrades, and that was fine as the content was easy by that point anyway. I would do it to help others, kill time, and get tokens.
 
In this game, I spend a lot of time working on the dungeons and have really only gotten sidegrades and maybe a minor upgrade here or there. It's fine, I'm having fun; I realize a huge part of this is crafted gear I purchased (pretty cheaply). But I do like getting new stuff as I go, particularly when I'm still working on the new content as "progression".
 
I'm referring to vet dungeons in this game. I haven't raided yet.
 
It does sound like they are addressing this, though.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yes, I don't understand the "grind for a specific piece of loot" idea. I play what is fun and get loot as I go. I was told in another thread that because I don't know the loot tables that my opinion on loot is invalid.
 
But even in other MMOs I never studied the loot table other than a few notable items. Mostly I just enjoyed the content and took whatever upgrades I needed.
 
I sure don't plan to do Malgrave trail 100 times looking for {x piece of very important loot}.
----
			I hate RNG, I really do. I'm an unlucky guy. I never even dare to dream of a specific epic loot because I know I will probably never get it (that's why I take random loot and never farm for anything). But since I started tanking at lvl50, I switched every gear piece (some of them more times) and I see a steady progression in my stats. I'm done with silvers and I can tank what's needed so far just fine - same is true for my dps gear btw, and I only take those upgrades for offspec, if no dps needs it. This is EXACTLY finding some dollar here and there along the road. People make it look like you get no loot at all in instances, but this is simply not true. Just because it's not the specific piece, or it's not purple, there are upgrades. Some blues are better than purples btw.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
These words are the problem.
 
- Queue up? No, don't. Put together a team.
- Get gear? No, stop worrying about gear and worry about skill.
 
But this ties back to the original post where players aren't interested in playing correctly in lieu of just "knocking it out" and getting it over with.
 
The mentality has to change.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
But since I started tanking at lvl50, I switched every gear piece (some of them more times) and I see a steady progression in my stats. I'm done with silvers and I can tank what's needed so far just fine - same is true for my dps gear btw, and I only take those upgrades for offspec, if no dps needs it. This is EXACTLY finding some dollar here and there along the road.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
And if your solution is circles why not just use a pug?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Circles are 100x better than pugs. The circle I belong to is an alliance of a half dozen or so smaller guilds so you often get the same people, just in different groups. Everyone has TS/Mumble/Vent and a lot of them are bookmarked for easy access.
 
I don't know about other circles, but the one I am in feels more like a large guild than a PUG. Even if it didn't have that feel, it will still be better than pugging because you can often group with the same folks.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Circles are the most underutilized and overlooked feature of Wildstar.  Amazing how much better the game is when you've got a circle for RP and a circle for world bosses when your guild doesn't feel like it.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Our circle is amazing. We are having a circle event this Sunday to race to see who can get through the CB dailies first, pvp flagged running the circle tag. Only hopping some Dommies show up to cause some grief!
 
1 plat and boe epic to the winner. Not a lot, but should be fun nonetheless.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Are you on Evindra? I'll to get my shovel ready...
----
			The only good Circle I'm in is the RP circle my guild is in. I can't get a response from my grouping circle half the time and when I do its a "Do you have tank and heaIer? No? (Queue the crickets)" I look for a new one all the time but can't seem to find any. At this point they're far worse than pugs to me.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The only good Circle I'm in is the RP circle my guild is in. I can't get a response from my grouping circle half the time and when I do its a "Do you have tank and heaIer? No? (Queue the crickets)" I look for a new one all the time but can't seem to find any. At this point they're far worse than pugs to me.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I'm in a few dungeon circles and...as a tank I think that there is just a general lack of tanks to go around further making it a bit worst. I had a text message from my friend this morning that said "dude you need to get on soon! We need a tank!", which is unfortunate...
 
Tanks are always the least played role, but I feel like in Wildstar you can really "feel it" right now.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I'm in a few dungeon circles and...as a tank I think that there is just a general lack of tanks to go around further making it a bit worst. I had a text message from my friend this morning that said "dude you need to get on soon! We need a tank!", which is unfortunate...
 
Tanks are always the least played role, but I feel like in Wildstar you can really "feel it" right now.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
There's a definite lack of players in the skill positions. Tons and tons of DPS, much less in the realm of tanks and healers. Kind of the way of the world, but exacerbated in Wildstar due to the difficulty and the hate healers and tanks get when DPS want the world to revolve around them.
 
I should really roll a tank. :P
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Those reasons are why I'm leveling healer and my gm is making a Tank. We want to experience the group content and that's about the only way to assure it.
 
I can't believe his casual arse is looking up builds and stuff lol. Playing tank is the only time I have seen him care about how well he plays.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yeah tanking/healing requires you to be on point. I would never go into a dungeon under geared with a crappy build in a support role. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Interesting- I am also leveling a tank. Will be interesting to see what it's like at cap doing vets, but so far my experience is that tanking is 10x easier than DPS on my slinger.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It's not as much about the difficulty of the role so much as wanting to ease the load on others. A crappy tank makes the healers life hell, and likewise the other way around.
 
There are some DPS sensitive fights, but for the most part you can die/slack off/be undergeared and everything is fine.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It's not as much about the difficulty of the role so much as wanting to ease the load on others. A crappy tank makes the healers life hell, and likewise the other way around.
 
There are some DPS sensitive fights, but for the most part you can die/slack off/be undergeared and everything is fine.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
There's also basically no wiggle room for screw ups if you're the tank or healer.  You can have a dps or two die and still get a ghetto kill on a fight.  Tank or healer die?  Much more difficult to pull off.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Definitely true of tank- there are definitely some fights where I'd rather lose a healer.
----
			
I work 9 hours a day, spend another 2 in commuting. then i have family i need to spend time with. After that can you blame me if i just want to get over with something i have repeatedly done million times already? 
 
I like how you people lump everyone together into category of 'impatient and spoiled'.
 
If i was leeching off my parents or wife or living on government aid, i would be lot relaxed too. Do nothing but play video games 12 hours a day which you all seem to be doing.
 
(yeah i made assumption too.. isn't it fun?)	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I work 9 hours a day, spend another 2 in commuting. then i have family i need to spend time with. After that can you blame me if i just want to get over with something i have repeatedly done million times already? 
 
I like how you people lump everyone together into category of 'impatient and spoiled'.
 
If i was leeching off my parents or wife or living on government aid, i would be lot relaxed too. Do nothing but play video games 12 hours a day which you all seem to be doing.
 
(yeah i made assumption too.. isn't it fun?)
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I work 9 hours a day, spend another 2 in commuting. then i have family i need to spend time with. After that can you blame me if i just want to get over with something i have repeatedly done million times already? 
 
I like how you people lump everyone together into category of 'impatient and spoiled'.
 
If i was leeching off my parents or wife or living on government aid, i would be lot relaxed too. Do nothing but play video games 12 hours a day which you all seem to be doing.
 
(yeah i made assumption too.. isn't it fun?)
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I don't think anyone in this thread has succeeded better at missing the point. Good job! :)
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{| class="blockquote"
I didn't miss any point. here i will copy paste one of the many replies.
 
Not sure we can. Society has moved on from a position of patience, community, and teamwork to PuGs, solo play, and desiring purple squares, not fun gameplay. Can fix a game all you like, but it's much harder if not impossible to fix people.
 
Isn't that generalisation? and this wasn't the only post trying to lump everyone into same category. I actually read all 6 pages.
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{| class="blockquote"
Sorry but you did miss the point, and that quote you posted shows it more clearly than ever. I'm too lazy to spell it out for you again in detail, but maybe you'll get it with just this much:
 
 
You're playing a video game. You're not working a job. 
Why are you doing things you "just want to get over with" ("a million times" even...) if they're not fun for you?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Because certain activities like 'dailies' are not fun 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I work 9 hours a day, spend another 2 in commuting. then i have family i need to spend time with. After that can you blame me if i just want to get over with something i have repeatedly done million times already? 
 
I like how you people lump everyone together into category of 'impatient and spoiled'.
 
If i was leeching off my parents or wife or living on government aid, i would be lot relaxed too. Do nothing but play video games 12 hours a day which you all seem to be doing.
 
(yeah i made assumption too.. isn't it fun?)
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Then don't do them.
End of story.
There's really nothing more to argue here.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 If there was anything else to do at end game to get the rewards and progress i would gladly do that too. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yeah, this is really futile I suppose...  :rolleyes:
 
 
Nah, I had to try at least.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It sounds like you don't have the time available to play a game like this, and if your only goal is to 'get it over with' then why bother?  My #1 rule is don't ask the game to change to fit your lifestyle.
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			Messed up post ignore. 	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It sounds like you don't have the time available to play a game like this, and if your only goal is to 'get it over with' then why bother?  My #1 rule is don't ask the game to change to fit your lifestyle.
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