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			They can do whatever they want as long as it brings PvP back.	
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			F2P is NOT going to "bring PvP back".  All you'll get is matches full of worthless dying chickens and endless frustration.	
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F2P is NOT going to "bring PvP back".  All you'll get is matches full of worthless dying chickens and endless frustration.
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I ain't gon' lie, the folks that come about when a game goes free to play skurrs me a bit. 
 
Don't care, tho. I just like killin' folks. So I'll still be 'round no matter what happens. 
 
Rock on, Carbine, Rock on.	
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Better that than 30m-1h queues.
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No, it's not.  I'm not a highly competitive person.  I have my moments where I want to WIN DAMMIT, but they are few and far between.  All I really care about is people actually putting forth an honest effort to play the game.  People that are just queueing and running around not doing *cupcake*, or are *cupcake*ing off and being *cupcakes* about it, trolling everyone else, that is not a viable alternative to "bring PvP back".
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Don't assume F2P players are bad pvpers. There are enough MMO's out there with better, more complicated PvP systems.
 
F2P doesn't mean they're bad in pvp or pve.
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I can only go by personal experiences I have had.  SWTOR taught me quite a bit about the F2P crowd, most of it I don't like.  Oh sure, there were the eager players that wanted to learn, but most of the *cupcakes* I dealt with in PvP were the *cupcakes* that were *cupcake*ing up the rest of the experience for everyone else.  They have nothing to lose with their actions, so they don't care.  I'm sorry, but if they go F2P and I see that *cupcake* filth in W* I'm gone.  It's not a solution.  It's not even a band aid.  It's blinders.  
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Depends how they implement it. SWTOR style of F2P would be what you just described; however, Rift style of F2P would help the game. Tera has a decent F2P style too.
 
As long as they don't follow SWTOR F2P, I doubt it will hurt the game since it's already down in the dumps.
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I don't play Tera(will NEVER play Tera) or Rift(only for a little bit, WAY before they went F2P and I had fun in the PvP they had then).  If they have good PvP matches, awesome.  But I don't see that happening here, because lack of players isn't the issue with PvP in W*, we don't need "cannon fodder", we need the issues to actually be fixed.  More matches, better matchmaking system, that kind of thing.  I'd rather wait out the fix then go play and be frustrated at the quantity over quality games.
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I Keep seeing people wanting the game to to f2p right away right now but they keep forgetting there are steps that a company would do before making it f2p.
1st they lower the price. that step done
2nd theyll advertise Free with monthly sub. aka take another 33% of the price off lower it more.
3rd will probably be play for free for a month then have to pay.
then they will probably go f2p but not before they impliment things that will make em money a cash shop which if they made it f2p would be very slim pickings rights now probably toss in runic flux/mods in there with costume items like the highwayman's set	
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I can only go by personal experiences I have had.  SWTOR taught me quite a bit about the F2P crowd, most of it I don't like.  Oh sure, there were the eager players that wanted to learn, but most of the *cupcakes* I dealt with in PvP were the *cupcakes* that were *cupcake*ing up the rest of the experience for everyone else.  They have nothing to lose with their actions, so they don't care.  I'm sorry, but if they go F2P and I see that *cupcake* filth in W* I'm gone.  It's not a solution.  It's not even a band aid.  It's blinders.  
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I feel after reading this thread that certain things seem to be happening over and over agian. Mostly this is due to the fact that people never experienced or have forgotten how games like WoW started. Threads like this make me feel like people just assume that WoW was just so amazing and flawless from the get go. Not like it had HUGE problems with the world, was unfinished at parts when launched, had massive PvP drama, and a million other issues that all mmos go through. It's true success was that there was nothing else out there that could rival it, thus people played through the agony and eventually it developed into one of the most succesful games that there is and does not continue to stay successful due to going F2P. I can only imagine what games like wild star could do for the gaming if given the same chance, though that is unlikely.
 
It was in another forum for another mmo which has since gone F2P that someone pointed out to me that one of the main issues in a games failure is a gamers expectation. It is the typical expection to want what you want and want it now. The knowledge that instant gratification in something as massive as a mmo is highly unlikely seems to be lost on most. Though I feel that only a few people can actually see past their own desires and look at the whole picture and realize there is more gears to this machine then the little clog they play as. It takes years to create the game without the constant bombardment and strain on the developers systems that gamers create but it is expected that problems will be fixed in a time frame that is just unrealistic. Even more so when companies are trying to be innovative and create a new way of doing things. It would seem to be that somehow code apparently just writes itself or something.
 
I try to think of what it must be like to have to traverse a milliion lines of code looking for one tiny mistake that could have created an error or a bug and then have to find a way in which to fix it without creating more issues with other lines of code. The fact that people that do this on a daily basis havent jumped out the 40th story window is amazing. The pay must be really good to work so hard on something just for people to complain about things not being fixed fast enough when they themselves could do so little if roles where reversed.
 
The heart of this entire post is this - Instant gratification by means of bleeding people's wallets dry by literally sacrificing the heart and soul of a game is heartbreaking. F2P is a misnomer in the fact that making a game free has nothing to do with actually saving money but making it so that you have to spend more money to get the same thing that you would have if it was purely subscription based. It is a fact that going F2P would create an influx of funds for the game and all those involved but it is not by any means a constant and sustainable flow. More times then not the game goes through another release type period where hype is high and players flock to the game just to get into it, play it for a little bit, and then leave agian; mainly for the reasons already stated. When this happens the buisness plan shifts from trying to further the games potential and the quality of it to simply riding the money train.
 
Every sub game I have played always has great updates almost weekly with the possibly of 2-3 expansions a year as a subscription based game and then they transfer into the realm of F2P and updates stay the same for awhile then slowly shift to every 2 weeks....to 3 weeks....to as far out as a month with a possible expanison in the next year that will probably not even come and when it does be riddled with more problems then most gamers can handle. Though this type of degradation has been handled well by some companies, the evidence is clearly there for those that wish to see.
 
The true heart of the problem has nothing to do with being a subscription game or F2P and everything to do with gamers wanting more and more and more and wanting it now now now like some toddler throwing a temper tantrum. Wild Star has amazing potential for it incorporates the knowledge of things that other mmos have done right while carving out its own section to be unique and thus further the evolution of gaming. After having played Rift, Tera, Swtor, and more I find it hard to see how anyone can actually go back to playing WoW in its obvious out dated mechanics. That is ofcourse my own personal opinion and after having played the game for 6 years I could not to this day play it agian knowing that there is games out there that have created mechanics that far surpass its predecessor.	
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I'd rather have quality over quantity when it comes to PvP.  People actually trying, win or lose, instead of sniveling in a corner because the other team is "better", or being the "better" team because the opposing team is sniveling in the corner.
 
And yes redviper, I'm quite aware that topping DPS/Healing charts isn't indicative of a good PvP match.	
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I feel after reading this thread that certain things seem to be happening over and over agian. Mostly this is due to the fact that people never experienced or have forgotten how games like WoW started. Threads like this make me feel like people just assume that WoW was just so amazing and flawless from the get go. Not like it had HUGE problems with the world, was unfinished at parts when launched, had massive PvP drama, and a million other issues that all mmos go through. It's true success was that there was nothing else out there that could rival it, thus people played through the agony and eventually it developed into one of the most succesful games that there is and does not continue to stay successful due to going F2P. I can only imagine what games like wild star could do for the gaming if given the same chance, though that is unlikely.
 
It was in another forum for another mmo which has since gone F2P that someone pointed out to me that one of the main issues in a games failure is a gamers expectation. It is the typical expection to want what you want and want it now. The knowledge that instant gratification in something as massive as a mmo is highly unlikely seems to be lost on most. Though I feel that only a few people can actually see past their own desires and look at the whole picture and realize there is more gears to this machine then the little clog they play as. It takes years to create the game without the constant bombardment and strain on the developers systems that gamers create but it is expected that problems will be fixed in a time frame that is just unrealistic. Even more so when companies are trying to be innovative and create a new way of doing things. It would seem to be that somehow code apparently just writes itself or something.
 
I try to think of what it must be like to have to traverse a milliion lines of code looking for one tiny mistake that could have created an error or a bug and then have to find a way in which to fix it without creating more issues with other lines of code. The fact that people that do this on a daily basis havent jumped out the 40th story window is amazing. The pay must be really good to work so hard on something just for people to complain about things not being fixed fast enough when they themselves could do so little if roles where reversed.
 
The heart of this entire post is this - Instant gratification by means of bleeding people's wallets dry by literally sacrificing the heart and soul of a game is heartbreaking. F2P is a misnomer in the fact that making a game free has nothing to do with actually saving money but making it so that you have to spend more money to get the same thing that you would have if it was purely subscription based. It is a fact that going F2P would create an influx of funds for the game and all those involved but it is not by any means a constant and sustainable flow. More times then not the game goes through another release type period where hype is high and players flock to the game just to get into it, play it for a little bit, and then leave agian; mainly for the reasons already stated. When this happens the buisness plan shifts from trying to further the games potential and the quality of it to simply riding the money train.
 
Every sub game I have played always has great updates almost weekly with the possibly of 2-3 expansions a year as a subscription based game and then they transfer into the realm of F2P and updates stay the same for awhile then slowly shift to every 2 weeks....to 3 weeks....to as far out as a month with a possible expanison in the next year that will probably not even come and when it does be riddled with more problems then most gamers can handle. Though this type of degradation has been handled well by some companies, the evidence is clearly there for those that wish to see.
 
The true heart of the problem has nothing to do with being a subscription game or F2P and everything to do with gamers wanting more and more and more and wanting it now now now like some toddler throwing a temper tantrum. Wild Star has amazing potential for it incorporates the knowledge of things that other mmos have done right while carving out its own section to be unique and thus further the evolution of gaming. After having played Rift, Tera, Swtor, and more I find it hard to see how anyone can actually go back to playing WoW in its obvious out dated mechanics. That is ofcourse my own personal opinion and after having played the game for 6 years I could not to this day play it agian knowing that there is games out there that have created mechanics that far surpass its predecessor.
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Go watch old videos of vanilla wow, Look at how it was back then it had more idiotic bugs than Wildstar has/had. This is considered vanilla wildstar if you want to go back to WoW and only fully experience 1 MMO your whole life because your $15 has no patience or resolve then go back to that archaic combat and wait until the next 'wow competitor" comes out and buy it only to leave when you see its in vanilla as well. Honestly its just pathetic IMO people have short memories. Patience goes a long way and if you don't have it MMOs probably aren't for you! Just go play WoW because it doesn't have bugs. Not once have I been caught up in an MMO with so much excitement since Wildstar. This is just a business monopoly and monopolies are bad for competition. By playing WoW out of impatience you're only feeding the monopoly even more lol. I wont bother explaining anymore just watch this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDP3T3j2vOc).
 
Sure Wildstar has made some bad decisions like rushing new content riddled with bugs and if that was a main selling point for you sorry. But, its just not feasible these kind of 'ideas' to catch your eye most likely are only born from the forced 'competition' (*coughs* monopoly) it inevitably will fail sadly. The only way to truly have a MMO that can act independent from the massive playerbase/bug-free MMO like WoW is to be in-turn also bug free with a massive playerbase. These new games that drop are almost certain to fail and/or loose its player base from any WoW expansion dropping. Wildstar was in development for 9 years and it had that many bugs still. It's my opinion that WoW just needs to be kicked off its high horse, and the mainstream hypocrisy just needs to get kicked off with it.
 
Lets be honest with ourselves where have the majority of players already gone? WoW. Where will the majority of the current playerbase go if it becomes F2P? WoW. What will happen to Wildstar if it goes F2P and all the 'casuals' for lack of a better word experience the game and aren't as serious as most of the players who haven't quit, so I can only assume a great majority will still not complete the game to end game. Therefore they will play for awhile an go back to WoW. There is most certainly a trend, sadly there is nothing one person can do about it because this problem comes down to consumers. Games are subbed from current quality and not their potential quality. Therefore WoW being that it's had years to iron out the bugs while it kept its playerbase being that it was the first MMO of its kind and of that potential. It's just died in my eyes Wildstar was what GW2 and WoW combined should have been. It's outdated and let's be honest the content is repetitive, it's like which previous ally is gonna loose it an become an enemy in this xpac. Idk its whatever WoW rant over. 
 
TL;DR WoW is a monopoly, give it your money and it crushes competition(WIldstar). 
TL;DR Your impatience kills most MMOs that had great potential	
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Go watch old videos of vanilla wow, Look at how it was back then it had more idiotic bugs than Wildstar has/had. This is considered vanilla wildstar if you want to go back to WoW and only fully experience 1 MMO your whole life because your $15 has no patience or resolve then go back to that archaic combat and wait until the next 'wow competitor" comes out and buy it only to leave when you see its in vanilla as well. Honestly its just pathetic IMO people have short memories. Patience goes a long way and if you don't have it MMOs probably aren't for you! Just go play WoW because it doesn't have bugs. Not once have I been caught up in an MMO with so much excitement since Wildstar. This is just a business monopoly and monopolies are bad for competition. By playing WoW out of impatience you're only feeding the monopoly even more lol. I wont bother explaining anymore just watch this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDP3T3j2vOc).
 
Sure Wildstar has made some bad decisions like rushing new content riddled with bugs and if that was a main selling point for you sorry. But, its just not feasible these kind of 'ideas' to catch your eye most likely are only born from the forced 'competition' (*coughs* monopoly) it inevitably will fail sadly. The only way to truly have a MMO that can act independent from the massive playerbase/bug-free MMO like WoW is to be in-turn also bug free with a massive playerbase. These new games that drop are almost certain to fail and/or loose its player base from any WoW expansion dropping. Wildstar was in development for 9 years and it had that many bugs still. It's my opinion that WoW just needs to be kicked off its high horse, and the mainstream hypocrisy just needs to get kicked off with it.
 
Lets be honest with ourselves where have the majority of players already gone? WoW. Where will the majority of the current playerbase go if it becomes F2P? WoW. What will happen to Wildstar if it goes F2P and all the 'casuals' for lack of a better word experience the game and aren't as serious as most of the players who haven't quit, so I can only assume a great majority will still not complete the game to end game. Therefore they will play for awhile an go back to WoW. There is most certainly a trend, sadly there is nothing one person can do about it because this problem comes down to consumers. Games are subbed from current quality and not their potential quality. Therefore WoW being that it's had years to iron out the bugs while it kept its playerbase being that it was the first MMO of its kind and of that potential. It's just died in my eyes Wildstar was what GW2 and WoW combined should have been. It's outdated and let's be honest the content is repetitive, it's like which previous ally is gonna loose it an become an enemy in this xpac. Idk its whatever WoW rant over. 
 
TL:DR WoW is a monopoly, give it your money and it crushes competition(WIldstar). 
TL;DR Your impatience kills most MMOs that had great potential
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Again, I call BS.
 
Customers aren't to blame for the failure of a game to capture a sufficient portion of the market share any more than it is a customer's fault when a local grocery store goes out of business: if you offer an unsatisfactory or uncompetitive product, you go out of business. End of story.
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Go watch old videos of vanilla wow, Look at how it was back then it had more idiotic bugs than Wildstar has/had. This is considered vanilla wildstar if you want to go back to WoW and only fully experience 1 MMO your whole life because your $15 has no patience or resolve then go back to that archaic combat and wait until the next 'wow competitor" comes out and buy it only to leave when you see its in vanilla as well. Honestly its just pathetic IMO people have short memories. Patience goes a long way and if you don't have it MMOs probably aren't for you! Just go play WoW because it doesn't have bugs. Not once have I been caught up in an MMO with so much excitement since Wildstar. This is just a business monopoly and monopolies are bad for competition. By playing WoW out of impatience you're only feeding the monopoly even more lol. I wont bother explaining anymore just watch this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDP3T3j2vOc).
 
Sure Wildstar has made some bad decisions like rushing new content riddled with bugs and if that was a main selling point for you sorry. But, its just not feasible these kind of 'ideas' to catch your eye most likely are only born from the forced 'competition' (*coughs* monopoly) it inevitably will fail sadly. The only way to truly have a MMO that can act independent from the massive playerbase/bug-free MMO like WoW is to be in-turn also bug free with a massive playerbase. These new games that drop are almost certain to fail and/or loose its player base from any WoW expansion dropping. Wildstar was in development for 9 years and it had that many bugs still. It's my opinion that WoW just needs to be kicked off its high horse, and the mainstream hypocrisy just needs to get kicked off with it.
 
Lets be honest with ourselves where have the majority of players already gone? WoW. Where will the majority of the current playerbase go if it becomes F2P? WoW. What will happen to Wildstar if it goes F2P and all the 'casuals' for lack of a better word experience the game and aren't as serious as most of the players who haven't quit, so I can only assume a great majority will still not complete the game to end game. Therefore they will play for awhile an go back to WoW. There is most certainly a trend, sadly there is nothing one person can do about it because this problem comes down to consumers. Games are subbed from current quality and not their potential quality. Therefore WoW being that it's had years to iron out the bugs while it kept its playerbase being that it was the first MMO of its kind and of that potential. It's just died in my eyes Wildstar was what GW2 and WoW combined should have been. It's outdated and let's be honest the content is repetitive, it's like which previous ally is gonna loose it an become an enemy in this xpac. Idk its whatever WoW rant over. 
 
TL;DR WoW is a monopoly, give it your money and it crushes competition(WIldstar). 
TL;DR Your impatience kills most MMOs that had great potential
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Clearly you missed my point, heck you only had to read the TL;DR part. When a monopoly is the problem competition is impossible. Ever heard of a boycott? It's on the consumer to do so. Monopolies have been illegal in most buisness practice for a reason. However minor monopolies can be formed through loop-holes and/or the nature of the product demands constant consumer satisfaction(gaming) in order to provide profit. Also, ultimately if players buy a sub and quit in a month they essentially ruin product projections. Which allows monopolies to exist even further. If you don't understand that logic you are lacking in the tools necessary to do so. Therefore this will be my last explanation, take it as you wish, ultimately its similar in cable/phone companies too. Fiber optics have been a standard in European countries for many years at even faster speeds than you get in US on cable. Cable is outdated yet its fed to us like the newest and best technology and it's not. Same can be said about WoW, it's built its enterprise over many years and is now keeping the majority of the business, WoW is outdated and old and has been essentially the same for 10+ years yet its fed to us as if it were the latest and greatest. If you don't understand the concept of monopoly and simplistically how it effects other businesses I truly feel sorry for your view of the world, and your chillingly idiotic trust that when other companies fail it is mostly 100% their fault and the possibility of monopolies and consumer preferences to be null in your logic. It's certainly the opposite while what you're saying it sometimes true, there are a great number of variables that need to be taken into consideration as I have. This isn't lke Blockbuster refusing to provide internet based products essentially to be eliminated by Netflix even AFTER Netflix offered to be bought by Blockbuster if they provided the service. That is 100% on blockbuster, with this consumers play 100% into the market and while Carbine has failed in some areas during its 'vanilla' period so did WoW. But, before WoW was what it is today players kept playing on the premise of success. Now that its successful players play MMOs on the premise that it should compete with the quality of WoW and IF it doesn't most people will simply go back. This is the problem with monopolies and as it is cold as heck where I sit typing this I am done explaining this for my fingers are frozen. Nonetheless hope this has helped you solve the flaw in your logic. Have a nice day! :D
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Still BS.
 
First, WoW has 36% of the worldwide market in 2013 (source: http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2014/07/19/world-of-warcraft-still-a-1b-powerhouse-even-as-subscription-mmos-decline/). Does that make them the 800 pound gorilla of the market? Absolutely. Monopoly? Nope, not even close; that's like saying Samsung has a monopoly on smartphones. Furthermore, despite the annual bounce from its yearly expansion, WoW is losing subscriptions at a rate slightly over 1 million per year (12 million subs in October 2010, down to 8.6 million in October 2014), and that is due to it's competitors providing newer products that players are trying out and preferring and not returning to WoW. WoW's dominance is being killed by a thousand paper cuts delivered from dozens of viable competitors who are delivering polished, satisfactory products. Delivering a polished, satisfactory product is something that Wildstar has failed to do thus far, which is why while statistically the largest number of players who left may have gone to play WoW, thousands of them are also flocking to games like SWTOR, Rift, and TERA: there isn't one game that's stealing away Wildstar's playerbase, it's a dozen games doing it.
 
As Thelonius pointed out, Carbine had a decade of feedback and evidence provided by nearly a dozen of big budget crash and burn MMO launches to know what to do and what not to do. They spent a great deal of promotional time in the last informing followers how they had seen the mistakes made by other MMOs, and that they had plans to avoid those pitfalls. Then they released a game that contained the absolute worst versions of every mistake that they claimed that they knew how to avoid. So no, it has nothing to do with players not being able recognize how the big bad monopoly of WoW has brainwashed them, and everything to do with players recognizing when they're not enjoying the product that has been provided here thus far. Have a nice day! :D
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I think it's important to delineate between bugs/glitches and conscious design decisions. I'm actually conceding to a lot of your points in my previous post. You are right. When it comes to bugs, glitches, and server issues, MMO players are super fickle, unfairly so.
 
What you need to understand though is that, at it's core (meaning NOT related to bugs/glitches/server issues) Wildstar is an MMO that is comprised of a lot of features that MMO players just straight up don't like. There is a reason these things were removed from WoW, and why they don't exist in the more recently successful MMOs.
 
There is no room for super hardcore 40 man raids, outrageous attunement chains, exclusionary end game content, etc., in MMO's anymore. Wildstar is proof. (The worst part about this bit, is that a ton of players gave great feedback during beta about how these features were not wanted, but alas, the devs must have not been listening to well at that time)
 
Carbine can maybe (maaaaybe) resurrect the game with a miracle ARR-esque patch to resolve these issues, while going F2P or some cheaper form of B2P. That'd give them a shot. Otherwise the game will just continue to circle the drain until NCSOFT pulls the plug.
 
Have you SEEN warplots?	
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I stopped at the forbes link, 36% lol the next biggest was 9%. it has 4 times the market, I won't bother reading the rest! xD
 
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			I think W* is good game, enough to be a sub-based mmo. Despite some problems here and there, do support them. I scrimped and save just to play wow as a student back in those days when it started out so its very possible to do so. And those days they had alot of problems too and people were screaming it to be f2p. Besides you can buy credds off the Credd xchange, if you want f2p, buy credd with your plats	
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			We both have our opinions, as I said before it's just mine. While I respect both of you for having your own opinions and the confidence enough to dispute it, I have firmly stuck to mine! You have to admit given the situation as I described earlier it pretty much forms its own monopoly. 36% is a fair part of the market, an that is on its steady decline it would have been much much higher earlier as I stated earlier. My problem with the game isn't the broken promises because every dev team breaks promises they are the politicians of our genre. When people sub for a month and quit they hurt the game. Coming back isn't going to help after the damage is done if there was even a plan to come back at all for those players. It's impossible to dispute the importance Q&A functionality plays in these games. The developers need feedback, through the masses to find even the smallest bugs that would usually go unnoticed. I think most people left due to bugs I really do. Perhaps Carbine does need more Q&A testers but at this point I'm just saying "That's like, your opinion, man" there really isn't a point in refuting either side any longer. I do appreciate the good fun though I always enjoy a debate I'm weird that way! :D Have a good day and I hope you continue to sub!	
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I think it's important to delineate between bugs/glitches and conscious design decisions. I'm actually conceding to a lot of your points in my previous post. You are right. When it comes to bugs, glitches, and server issues, MMO players are super fickle, unfairly so.
 
What you need to understand though is that, at it's core (meaning NOT related to bugs/glitches/server issues) Wildstar is an MMO that is comprised of a lot of features that MMO players just straight up don't like. There is a reason these things were removed from WoW, and why they don't exist in the more recently successful MMOs.
 
There is no room for super hardcore 40 man raids, outrageous attunement chains, exclusionary end game content, etc., in MMO's anymore. Wildstar is proof. (The worst part about this bit, is that a ton of players gave great feedback during beta about how these features were not wanted, but alas, the devs must have not been listening to well at that time)
 
Carbine can maybe (maaaaybe) resurrect the game with a miracle ARR-esque patch to resolve these issues, while going F2P or some cheaper form of B2P. That'd give them a shot. Otherwise the game will just continue to circle the drain until NCSOFT pulls the plug.
 
Have you SEEN warplots?
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I'm new and quite worried about the low population in leveling zones (Entity). I tried to queue for about everything starting practice BGs and adventures, then dungeons, for like a week. 
 
Yesterday my queue finally popped and I did my first ever WS dungeon, Stormtalon, which was quite fun.
 
But before this I was even 5-6 hours into the queues and nothing happened, I was even wondering if there are others online at the same level.
 
I come from WoW, and then I played Neverwinter (which is a crap F2P/P2W shitty game I am EXTREMELY happy to put behind), and both had reliable queues and lots of players around, it made the world alive. I WS it's almost like I am leveling in a single player game.
 
My only hope at this point is that the raiding scene is healthy, when I finally get there, because the PvP seems to be dying if I am to believe what I read on the forums.
 
The game is great fun however and I wish it will make it past this difficult period.
 
BUT.
 
No F2P. 
 
Please, no f2p. I had one of the worst experiences in 20+ yrs of gaming in Neverwinter, even thinking about their schemes to extract more money and bankrupt legit players makes me wanna puke. Besides Path of Exile, I don't know of any good F2P model, and I don't think other companies will have the same stance as GGG.	
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			Mr. Donatelli, please do not listen in any way to this small amount of crackheads (I am sry for the wording) who "demand" f2p. Thank you. The majority of players, is not in the forums, and will not like f2p.	
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please go free to play so we can have a populated game so i can play again. make money off the cash shop or something.
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			If this game wants to survive it has to follow the example of TerA, all people who purchase or pay the montly thing has to be rewarded in the free to play module, like vetera or founder.... stuff like that	
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Mr. Donatelli, please do not listen in any way to this small amount of crackheads (I am sry for the wording) who "demand" f2p. Thank you. The majority of players, is not in the forums, and will not like f2p.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
it is funny how u say the majority... the majority are like 4 - 10 people who acctualy play the game... so  las time i was in the main city, (cant remember name 2 month since stop playing) i only saw 2 people next to the broker.... and 2 more at the pvp merchant... in a very populated hour.... so yeah... the majority
----
			It even funnyer how u live ur own lie.....  the power of imagination i guess XD. 	
----
			Likewise.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
it is funny how u say the majority... the majority are like 4 - 10 people who acctualy play the game... so  las time i was in the main city, (cant remember name 2 month since stop playing) i only saw 2 people next to the broker.... and 2 more at the pvp merchant... in a very populated hour.... so yeah... the majority
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
so without knowing which server you were even on, we should believe that nobody plays the game because you have logged in 2 months ago to check? Or should we instead trust the customers that are currently playing the game and can discuss the population first hand?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I logged in last night. Saturday night, at midnight. Two people at the auction house in ilium on Warhound. Two. That's not good.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
check Entity and Jabbit. Few people on Luminai too as our server was left to rot. However we have 3 different nationality guilds on exile side and around 4 small guilds with one big one on dominion side, we still have more than enough people to organize world bosses, warplots, defile multiman content and raiding. So as dead as the server is there are still quite a lot of people that visually you don't see. If I log in on Jabbit though I visually see people. I also get disconnected due to server lag on that side :D
 
So 
1. Population is lopsided
2. People won't necessarily chill in the main city
3. Illium has 3 auction houses. 
----
			
I used to play on Jabbit and the server was far from dead. There were at least 50+ people at each of the auction houses, probably more. Luminai isn't as populated but I still see a handful of people in all areas.
 
More people definitely play on PvE servers and even if fewer people play on PvP servers, people still play on them. The game isn't dead, you're just playing on the less populated of the servers.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Sure XD  in a mmorpg and the mayority arent at the main city?
When?
Another living in a fantasy land =D
One ur eyes plz! 
----
			
... so it would makes so much sense... with even less players... drop sub model and HOPE they buy enough after f2p conversion... to maintain the game :D :D :D :D :D good idea. BRILLIANT....
 
 
and lets ignore all the ongoing events and other things...  raids and what not... wildstar does not require you to pose in the cities .... lets not forget what about the module farm ... that is happening right now.... nobody refused the fact that the overall population is decreasing ... still, nothing that justifies a f2p conversion... NCSoft will and has to decide. Not you.	
----
			didnt know 10 people in this thread made business decisions for carbine. f2p will save this game how it is now is it working?	
----
			
Funny that, you're trying to make business decisions for them, aincha? LMAO
 
It may "save" the game, but it isn't going to keep this player.	
----
			Is wildstar FTP yet? I thought I read it some where.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
didnt know 10 people in this thread made business decisions for carbine. f2p will save this game how it is now is it working?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
PVE is dead. Half the people can't even beat the 20 man FFS. Not many guilds have even cleared that.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
didnt know 10 people in this thread made business decisions for carbine. f2p will save this game how it is now is it working?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The game doesn't have to be "saved". The game is running well as far as we know. It's just a niche game in the niche genre MMOs are. If the devs insist on keeping it a sub based game it surely means something. It means they're committed to make a quality product people will be willing to pay for instead of making a game using a predatory marketing model to milk the 5% of the playerbase which is paying for the bills. There's already enough fast-food F2P games with a forgettable gameplay anyway so if that's your thing, unsub and have fun.
 
I'm honestly sick of seeing such threads full of kids demanding F2P so that others pay for the game they play. If we could have a week without these guys the forums would be a better place. :)
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The game doesn't have to be "saved". The game is running well as far as we know. It's just a niche game in the niche genre MMOs are. If the devs insist on keeping it a sub based game it surely means something. It means they're committed to make a quality product people will be willing to pay for instead of making a game using a predatory marketing model to milk the 5% of the playerbase which is paying for the bills. There's already enough fast-food F2P games with a forgettable gameplay anyway so if that's your thing, unsub and have fun.
 
I'm honestly sick of seeing such threads full of kids demanding F2P so that others pay for the game they play. If we could have a week without these guys the forums would be a better place. :)
----
			
Once again.. F2P folks... tell me... with a direct answer.... why do you want to pay MORE for what you get for free right now (or just the monthly fee you have to pay). You tell "us" to not close our eyes... ok--- lets face it... f2p comes.... MANY people will leave in the first place some more in the second because f2p will suck cupcakes. In addition, what do you think will REALLY happen when f2p hits... do you really close your eyes and think everything will be cheap :D and available? :D :D .. AND servers will be full again :D again the game will get 1 million people playing :D Common. Stop fooling yourself.
 
Answer this.. without stating you wannabe bullshit arguments any longer.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Once again.. F2P folks... tell me... with a direct answer.... why do you want to pay MORE for what you get for free right now (or just the monthly fee you have to pay). You tell "us" to not close our eyes... ok--- lets face it... f2p comes.... MANY people will leave in the first place some more in the second because f2p will suck cupcakes. In addition, what do you think will REALLY happen when f2p hits... do you really close your eyes and think everything will be cheap :D and available? :D :D .. AND servers will be full again :D again the game will get 1 million people playing :D Common. Stop not fooling yourself.
 
Answer this.. without stating you wannabe bullshit arguments any longer.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You don't have to pay extra in F2P models. That is an option for the player that is not needed. Even for SWTOR you don't need to pay up anything, wait a week and every reunlocks in it.
 
As for the "many" people leaving, who are these "many"? I'm on the US PvE megaserver and even in prime time it feels like a ghost town. If there are so many people then I must be blind, I hardly see anyone anywhere.
 
As for more people coming in, it will happen due to the game being free. People like free things and will always check in once in while. This happens in Tera, SWTOR, Rift, Maplestory, etc etc, a lot of old people always come back for content patches in F2P MMO's. I know I do.
 
Before you say "there are a lot of people playing this game", please show me a screenshot of all these players otherwise I call BS.
----
			One more thing... dont take my calling for "bullshit" as an insult. I just want to state, that for me, it does not seems valid. I am really interested in a discussion.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This is a pre-lie. I want to raid... many models include longer lockouts and things or some difficulties are not available or I cannot equip raid gear (lol)  so I call bullshit (1).
"Feels like"... ok I see... so nothing with numbers .. just a feeling. Ok. Bullshit (2).
 
Ok... some people will come and join the game... and many will leave... :D .. cool story. Bullshit (3).
 
I (.. whatever) never said and/or will say A LOT of people play the game. Still the numbers seems to be enough for now to cover the costs. Fixes for a lot of things are about to come. Hence, whats the cupcake problem here. Give it some time. Report bugs. Submit tickets. Stop crying for f2p.
 
 
/edit
 
And.. if nothing will be more expensive... or everything will be available like.. now... why change anyway? ... leave it as it is... if nothing will change... nothing has to change.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
1. Doesn't matter if you can equip raid gear or not, the LFR version of SWTOR raises your gear stats by w/e is needed, don't need artifact gear to do it so it's not a lie.
 
2. You've yet to show me these "many" people, still calling BS. Until you show me all these people, I hardly doubt more will leave if the game goes F2P compared to the influx of players that will come in.
 
3. The reason things cover the costs is because of the huge layoff's NCsoft did with Carbine. If the devs all stayed, I guarantee that the costs wouldn't be NEAR enough. The layoffs were a bad sign and things will get worse at this rate.
 
Edit: Likewise on the BS.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You don't have to pay extra in F2P models. That is an option for the player that is not needed. Even for SWTOR you don't need to pay up anything, wait a week and every reunlocks in it.
 
As for the "many" people leaving, who are these "many"? I'm on the US PvE megaserver and even in prime time it feels like a ghost town. If there are so many people then I must be blind, I hardly see anyone anywhere.
 
As for more people coming in, it will happen due to the game being free. People like free things and will always check in once in while. This happens in Tera, SWTOR, Rift, Maplestory, etc etc, a lot of old people always come back for content patches in F2P MMO's. I know I do.
 
Before you say "there are a lot of people playing this game", please show me a screenshot of all these players otherwise I call BS.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I call BS. 
 
Gamers are not to blame for the "failure" or rapid post-launch decline of an MMORPG because of  "high expectations": the developers set those expectations, and if they fail to meet them, and thus incur the wrath of their customers via massive exodus, that's on the Developers, not the players.
 
When you are paying for a service, you have the right to expect everything that was promised in the promotional materials that were used to sell you that service: this is something that MMORPG developers frequently fail at, and in my opinion, it should just flat out illegal for an MMO developer to promise monthly updates (not just talking about Wildstar here, I've seen other games do the same thing). Paying customers have the right to expect a well maintained service: bugs happen, but it shouldn't take three or four hotfixes that supposedly fix them before it finally "sticks". Paying customers have the right to expect honest and timely answers to questions about the service: it is better to come out quickly and say "other then hotfixes for immediate issues, you're not going to see new stuff in that part of the game for at least another six months" than to delay months before you start to string your customers along with non-specific promises of new developments on a very nebulous timeline for fear that someone will get butthurt over the honest answer and go on a Facebook rant about your game.
 
I feel like I'm Jim Sterling here, but the "failure" of an MMORPG (or any video game) is not the customer's fault. Ever. period. 
 
 
On to the main topic:
 
This game is unlikely to make any sort of B2P/F2P transition until after Drop 4: there are simply too many fundamental issues with the game that relate to itemization. If the game was to go F2P before Drop 4, it will not be around by January 2016: if the F2P masses were to flow into the game in it's current state, they will leave, make a big stink about how much Wildstar sucks (driving off any further F2Pers), and never, ever return. Once free to play fails, you're out of options: close the book and toss Wildstar on the pile of failures that includes Auto Assault and Tabula Rasa.  
 
Beyond Drop 4... I virtually guarantee the game will go B2P or F2P. A game like Wildstar, by reasonable estimates, probably cost between 70 and 80 million USD to produce, which means it also has a relatively high maintenance and continuous development cost. You don't build a game for 70 million to only have 100k subscribers: your studio payroll alone will eat half that money before any other cost is factored in, and that's too much investment for too little return; in all likelihood that means running in the red for a project of this size. There has been too much money poured into the development of this game for a slow burn to success, aka the Eve Online route to profitability: Eve was made for very little money, and designed specifically to "make players themselves the content" thus making it very inexpensive to maintain, aka the exact opposite of Wildstar.
 
When every source out there is saying the same type of things about the game, long waits for dungeons or PvP, mostly empty main cities, the European PvP server is dead, and barren leveling areas, that all suggests a game with serious population issues: you can call it anecdotal evidence, but when a thousand different people are all telling the same anecdote, you've moved past it being isolated experiences and have a real issue. Pro-F2P or anti-F2P, it doesn't matter: no one is going to keep paying to play a multiplayer game that can only offer empty servers. F2P fills the servers with prospective customers and gives the current ones someone to play with: and that's more than what the game has right now.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
1. Doesn't matter if you can equip raid gear or not, the LFR version of SWTOR raises your gear stats by w/e is needed, don't need artifact gear to do it so it's not a lie.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I hadn't realized they did that(I knew for the small group content they bolstered people up to lvl 49, Kuat Drive Yards for example).  And no one sees the problem there?????  WTF is the point of raiding if there's no incentive to raid?  Dang, I didn't realize they dumbed down content like that for F2P too, guess that's another reason to not want it.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You don't have to pay extra in F2P models. That is an option for the player that is not needed. Even for SWTOR you don't need to pay up anything, wait a week and every reunlocks in it.
 
As for the "many" people leaving, who are these "many"? I'm on the US PvE megaserver and even in prime time it feels like a ghost town. If there are so many people then I must be blind, I hardly see anyone anywhere.
 
As for more people coming in, it will happen due to the game being free. People like free things and will always check in once in while. This happens in Tera, SWTOR, Rift, Maplestory, etc etc, a lot of old people always come back for content patches in F2P MMO's. I know I do.
 
Before you say "there are a lot of people playing this game", please show me a screenshot of all these players otherwise I call BS.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
uh... this is just in one part of the city... there are many in the craft area, several by the pvp area/dummy area.... in fact I logged in on alts in various places and saw at least 2 people.  This was in teh starter area at level 1, in galares in some random area there were 2 people passing by while leveling, on my 35 engie there were 2 in wildrun near the start of the zone where I logged in.  Theres tons in the defile area, R12 there were at least a raid and a half.....
 
Now consider the people that are in raids, in dungeons, in their housing areas, RP..... ya...
 
You need to just stop.  The game is not dead, F2P at this point would hurt it as the loyal customers would pack up.  Many have said in several threads months ago before these F2P threads started popping up daily.
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
For a MMO type game, that isn't very many people.
----
			
There is not a single true F2P title on the market to this day (Not counting shareware/freeware + opensource). Fact
 
They all have hidden paywalls either in the form of unobtainable cosmetic items, gear, mounts, NPCs (EQ2 Henchmen) or some encounters that you will never be able to use.
 
F2P is not a miracle cure in the sense that it brings a ton to the table, it just forces the current users of a game to spend a lot more money to obtain it, instead of their time and hard work.	
----
			
yeah, no thanks. pass id rather have a game that will slowly grow, and then beat the socks off of all else as its capable of blowing anything outta the water as apposed to FTP then swarmed by steam for a month or so then left once the vultures pick the meat off the bones then its gets left for the next greenlight. all that will do is spike population and then fizz out as people get sick of GREEDY annoyingly frequent PROMO after -PROMO for cash shop money grabs and it literally gets NO MORE CONTENT save for dumb hats....
 
ill take a game with dedicated players over crap anyday. or a game thats again, slow building until everyone else's month or two of wow burns out and they realize that was all that was holding them....  then the flood will come just hang in there. once WS gets done riding out the BS storm half caused by missinfo it will be the strongest kid on the block	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
1. Ok... who tells me that Carbine or NCSoft will do so? :D ... I smell money.
2. Please consider the following. You tell me/us there only a few people (left). Without proof. Why is the game still running, if we really talk about what... 40 players in Illium or what? :D ... Why do I have to provide evidence.. when the best evidence (running servers and upcoming patches) are right in front of you.
3. Layoffs always happen in big projects. Core tasks are done. There is no reason to keep ALL workers that were necessary to create the game in the first place... plus (without a doubt) some layoffs because of bad work.. still, I see upcoming patches and at least one drop... .
 
Of course, like every other project out there, Wildstar could have done better in some/many places. That is for sure. Fun fact: Carbine knows.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I think it's important to delineate between bugs/glitches and conscious design decisions. I'm actually conceding to a lot of your points in my previous post. You are right. When it comes to bugs, glitches, and server issues, MMO players are super fickle, unfairly so.
 
What you need to understand though is that, at it's core (meaning NOT related to bugs/glitches/server issues) Wildstar is an MMO that is comprised of a lot of features that MMO players just straight up don't like. There is a reason these things were removed from WoW, and why they don't exist in the more recently successful MMOs.
 
There is no room for super hardcore 40 man raids, outrageous attunement chains, exclusionary end game content, etc., in MMO's anymore. Wildstar is proof. (The worst part about this bit, is that a ton of players gave great feedback during beta about how these features were not wanted, but alas, the devs must have not been listening to well at that time)
 
Carbine can maybe (maaaaybe) resurrect the game with a miracle ARR-esque patch to resolve these issues, while going F2P or some cheaper form of B2P. That'd give them a shot. Otherwise the game will just continue to circle the drain until NCSOFT pulls the plug.
 
Have you SEEN warplots?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
.. why is this a reliable answer for anything - I mean the number of people on the screenshot?
 
If you would see 6000 people on the screenshot.. I would guess content is *cupcake*ing horrible.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
There is not a single true F2P title on the market to this day (Not counting shareware/freeware + opensource). Fact
 
They all have hidden paywalls either in the form of unobtainable cosmetic items, gear, mounts, NPCs (EQ2 Henchmen) or some encounters that you will never be able to use.
 
F2P is not a miracle cure in the sense that it brings a ton to the table, it just forces the current users of a game to spend a lot more money to obtain it, instead of their time and hard work.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
1. Even if Carbine doesn't want F2P, NCsoft makes the end decisions for their published games. If they deem they want F2P market then it will be F2P, if they want a sub market then it will stay sub.
 
2.My proof is the amount of people left after the 2 million copies they sold at launch. Didn't the last report say the subs were under 300k? Also, just because it releases content doesn't mean it's in poor shape. Runescape and Maplestory have less players than Wildstar and they release content every month or so.
 
3. To a degree I agree with you on that, there was some sloppy works in Wildstar with the amount of bugs and such. However, any layoff's with a huge wave like that is ALWAYS bad even if it was going to happen anyway.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
THAT IS IT... no f2p crowd comes up and sais... but you dont have to.... :D
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
1. Of course. So why do you and the other f2p fans even consider a discussion about it?
2. How is this relevant? Servers are up and running. Of course, one has to apply a long-term view on things like that... but here again.. NCSoft will deal with it. There is nothing EXCEPT making the game better by submitting bug reports and things can REALLY help.
3. Yep.. I think we can close this one,... 
 
 
 
My personal assumption without any official proof... is around 50-100k active subs, MAX (world wide).
 
Still I can see a lot of people in the Defile. I know who is raiding and who (maybe) not on my server (Jabbit). I am really aware of the fact that numbers are not great .. but now comes the critical part... the numbers are not great because of which comparison? What is a number one should consider bad/stable/bad? Again, if the bills can be paid and new content can be created ... and the game is awesome as it is. I do not care.
 
I really think they get better numbers with drop 4. If I am wrong and bill can still be paid, I still do not care.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Rift and Tera don't have pay walls towards anything. In both F2P models you can do endgame as much as you want with no issues. Their cash shops are mostly filled with cosmetic items. Maplestory use to be like that too, but they cubes came out and turned into a HUGE p2w game.
 
Closest paywall I can think of is SWTOR, I said before you don't need to pay for anything if you don't want, but that doesn't mean EA doesn't try and nickle and dime you for every little thing.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
1. I'm just putting my 2 cents in the thread, nothing else.
2. What have they done to deal with it? Mega servers helped, but not as much as people think.
3. Agreed.
 
50k-100k subs... really? That's just bad if its true.
 
Yes, there are lack of people, anyone who disagree's is delusional, but as I said before in another response to someone else it's not dead.
As for what i'm comparing this too, the MMO's of the past that aren't WoW. MMO's like Aion, Tera, SWTOR, Rift, Conan, FF14 ARR and so on have done terrible as well aside from Rift and FF14 ARR(first 14 did horrible though). Rift lasted until half a year into its first Xpax and FF14 ARR is going strong with 3 million active subs.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Have you played RIFT? :D I did. Progress-style (including the whole top 5 world thing...). Until f2p - awesome. Afterwards, *cupcake*ing shit. Really... just shit. Expansion... horrible. Tera... yeah well kind of a tast thing... not mine. Again, some buddies played it very hard. F2P hit. They left. Of course, this may or may not means anything or nothing but they had there reasons.
 
Yeah, SWToR we did this already... . :/ :D
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I have played Rift, there aren't any paywalls that come to mind. Play the game and you can get all the items without and special lockouts like SWTOR. Though I agree that Nightmare Tide is terrible compared to Storm Legion. Level 65 Warrior, tank/heals/Support on Rift.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I have played Rift, there aren't any paywalls that come to mind. Play the game and you can get all the items without any special lockouts like SWTOR. Though I agree that Nightmare Tide is terrible compared to Storm Legion. Level 65 Warrior, tank/heals/Support on Rift.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
In an MMO, you want a lot of areas to be filled with people, not just the main cities. When I play Wildstar, I only see people in cities while in the outside world of leveling/world bosses I see next to no one. I don't expect 6000 people in one area, I expect 6000 people in the overall world in many different places.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
There are paywalls though. Each expansion you have to buy the souls. If thats not b2p or p2p I don't know what is. Stop saying trion doesn't make money from their "f2p" titles
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Ok no paywall as such/in the first place, but the whole quality of the game dropped from really good to shit. This could be seen a (side-) effect from p2p to f2p as a negative effect, - my perception.
 
But you have to buy the souls, right? So somehow.. you are limited again... use of auction house was made free again after a shit storm lol :D
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You don't have to buy souls, they are completely optional. Rift has a nice talent system which makes any spec work.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Never said they didn't make money off it, don't put words in my statement that I never said.
 
You don't have to buy souls, they are completely optional. Rift has a nice talent system which makes any spec work.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
1. No I mean... if this whole f2p thing/conversion is above our "power" .. why do we discuss about it anyway? We have nothing to say. This whole discussion about f2p will not bring up anything that lores more players in to Nexus nor will NCSoft say "Oh haisenkalle and Killance thanks for your input". It really does not matter at all. They will do, what they consider reasonable.
2. I say mega server are nice to have, but we had mega servers before hand. Queues and free transfers - no realm limitation as such. Not a problem. Still, mega server(s) are nice to have.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
>_> Classes are content. Anything is content. It's a paywall if it's blocking you from content.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
1. You're right, they will do whatever they please regardless of our opinion. However, this doesn't mean we have to close debates with other players. It's healthy for a game to have 2 opposing players clashing ideas. I think we settled this one.
2. EU doesn't seem to like it from their posts.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
That's the point. You say that very easily but still you know.. they will balance your class to that soul and you will have to buy it in order to perform at a certain max level. I mean it is not like ... oh well.. your lockout is a little bit longer than usual.. :D .. you simply cannot play every specc that theoretically exists in the game. That is a lockout. You have to pay. (At least for the digital deluxe (whatever the real name is) edition)
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I have yet to see that happen in Rift where they balance to the point you need the other souls.
 
Not counting Storm Legion souls since those were around when the game was still sub based.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
For a MMO type game, that isn't very many people.
 
I said the game is in poor shape, never said it was dead.
 
Dying, I can see an argument, but not dead.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
If you count that as content, I shudder to think what else you consider as "content".
 
 
I still play WoW and I still run into people on my lower level alts thanks to cross realm servers they added.
 
That's not a bad thing in a MMO, players need more things to do in the open world. Just focusing on instance content is a bad decision imo.
 
Cosmetics are items just to goof around with, not needed for anything at all aside from looking different. Shorter lock-outs, but that's it. F2P players didn't have any restrictions from instance content or leveling.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
1. yeah.
2. Really? I mean, I like it though. I was astonished that anything but a mega server were something to consider in the first place .. because MMO :D .. but yeah.. we got it now.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Your so full of shit its not even funny lol.
 
You just *cupcake*ing said not even 2 pages ago that even during prime time you only see one or two people in the main city.  
 
/ignore 
 
Troll
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			Alright, I'm going to close this one up. Looks like we left constructive discussion a few pages back. 	
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