Report 1664

Special Report #1664
Skillset: Kata Skill: Hemorrhaging-Burst
 Org: Nekotai Status: Rejected Dec 2007
Furies' Decision:
No longer relevant
Problem: With Changelog 726, the Burst mechanic now becomes one that requires
the monk to stick haemophilia for the period between the burst and his
instakill, OR to drain the target entirely of mana, so they cannot clot -
basically, reverting back to pre-hemorrhaging status, in order to get a kill.
This is because without either of those two things happening, any target will
simply mass clot bleeding upon the monk using Burst, and the monk will never be
able to instakill. This is, obviously, undesirable for both the monk, and also
for everyone else (we don't want to go back to having monks drain the target
empty of his mana). This report was made based on a discussion between Falaeron
and Wobou, and aims to make burst -> kill be based on something other than
draining the target's mana to zero.
Solution #1: In addition to current burst effects (turning hemorrhaging into
 bleed), have it lower the target's instakill requirements by
 (hemorrhaging amount - 500), to a minimum of 500. This effect
 lasts for 3.5s (a window that is just enough for a follow-up
 instakill). Example: target has 1500 hemorrhaging. Burst will
 lower the requirement to instakill by (1500 - 500) = 1000. The
 target now can get instakilled at 500 bleeding, which can be
 reached via the target having 2 of the affliction requirements of
 their instakill. (Note: Currently, Nekotai don't have afflictions
 that contribute to their instakill because of a recent change,
 another report will be made to correct that.) A burst should cost
 3p. The instakill itself should be lowered to 3p. This solution
 ensures that the target can get killed without needing the add
 the ability to drain mana to 0 to the monk skillsets.
Solution #2: Optional: In addition to solution 1, lower max hemorrhaging to
 1500, since that's the where the Burst's proposed effect of
 lowering instakill requirements max out, anyway.
Solution #3: Cap hemorrhaging at 1250. Make hemorrhaging count for the
 instakill requirements again (revert Changelog 726, basically).
 Any additional hemorrhaging above the cap is just given as flat
 bleed instead. The details and reasonings behind this solution is
 in the forum post by Ciaran:
http://forums.lusternia.com/discussion/comment/168808/#Comment_168808
ttp://forums.lusternia.com/discussion/comment/168808/#Comment_168808
 tp://forums.lusternia.com/discussion/comment/168808/#Comment_168808
 p://forums.lusternia.com/discussion/comment/168808/#Comment_168808
Player Comments:
---[Wobou on 4/1 @ 10:44 writes]:
I support solution 1 because as you said either we need some sort of massive
mana drain on burst (which causes other problems) or we need some fairly good
affliction combinations to "hold" someone's bleeding in place for 2.6s which can
also cause problems, it's cleaner to just grant a window. I'm guessing the
window of opportunity will be in the neighborhood of ~3.5-5s? I think if the
speed of the build has been addressed that being able to get someone up to 2k if
you want additional vital pressure shouldn't be a large issue, which is similar
to my feeling for solution 3. Vital pressure is king in groups so it's important
to look at it, however with the new rate getting someone to 1.5k-2k hemorrhaging
should be around the rate a warrior reaching killing wounds which tends not to
happen in groups outside of warrior stacks. Removing the bleed conversion
removes any reason I'd want to burst before 1500 and I think it's good flavor
for the archetype to have an actual bleeding/bruising burst. In short I'd like
to wait on solution 3, and I think even if we see some logs where the vital
pressure is too great that there's some compromise solutions inbetween that we
could try (not having it increase bleeding if it grants you the window of
opportunity, giving out half the bleed and bruising per point of hemorrhaging
currently, etc.)
---[Lerad on 4/1 @ 16:00 writes]:
Based on the above comment, and on forums discussions, I've changed solution 3
to an entirely different alternative.
---[Shedrin on 4/1 @ 22:47 writes]:
So the major difference would be, in Solution 1 once you burst, since you lose
all your hemorrhaging if you fail the kill you have to build it all back up
again. With Solution 2, you don't have to. I think the time to build is slow
enough that Solution 2 would be better, and comparable to warriors, but there
are inherent advantages of hemorrhaging compared to wounds, namely the
bleed/bruise vitals pressure. Overall I'll support whatever the monk envoys
think is better as I think both could work.
---[Lerad on 4/2 @ 00:40 writes]:
Effectively, hemorrhaging has made monks an attrition class, not a burst class,
though they are bursty in terms of afflictions at the moment they hit Surge.
Their kill method is simply slow and plodding. Given that I believe Sol3 might
be better - completely reseting offense is a hallmark of burst classes, but to
even get hemorrhaging high enough, the monk has to consistently, and constantly,
work and race against a timer that he cannot affect or slow. (Though I'm
considering making haemophilia slow hemorrhaging ticks - but that has its own
set of balance concerns) Basically, now that hemorrhaging is basically an
attrition mechanic, I don't think we should be using the paradigm of burst
classes, where offense completely resets after a failure.
---[Shedrin on 4/2 @ 03:11 writes]:
I meant Solution 3 in my above comment. I largely agree with Lerad's assessment
about hemorrhaging.
---[Wobou on 4/8 @ 11:45 writes]:
Looking at this again I think of these solutions I like Sol. 3 the most right
now. I like the idea of the simple window sol. 1 provides but it's actually
difficult for most monks to guarantee even with setup that two of their affs
stick on the target for 2.6s so thinking on it more I think sol. 1 would move
the problem from sticking bleeding to sticking two affs which I don't think most
of the specs can do reliably right now. That said, both thematically and
mechanically I like burst being required because it makes us more like guardians
and less like warriors (even though I acknowledge that hemorrhaging is an
attrition mechanic). There is a fairly easy way to modify solution 1 or 3 to
meet most of my ideals (which may or may not be other ideals). What do you folks
think of this: "Hemorrhaging is capped at 1250, burst in addition to its current
effects reduces the instakill requirement by the amount of hemorrhaging consumed
for 3.5s. Burst costs 3p, instakill costs 3p." I think this would make burst ->
insta doable for all the specs (once the nekotai changes are in), like Ciaran's
proposal it would require the proper timing to make sure that you don't burst at
1150 hemorrhaging, but unlike his proposal burst would still be required.
---[Lerad on 4/10 @ 13:59 writes]:
As I mentioned on the forums as well, I don't think completely reseting offense
for an attrition mechanic is fair. A hybrid of 1+3 where burst is required is
fine, but it should either return some of the hemorrhaging after the window is
over (failure to instakill), or the insta requirement (and cap) needs to be
pushed a lot lower to emulate burst mechanics.
---[Wobou on 4/15 @ 21:40 writes]:
I think I like refunding x% (maybe 50%?) on failure rather than lowering the
requirements themselves but either way is fine with me.
---[Shuyin on 4/18 @ 04:23 writes]:
Solution 3 is my preference here.