102403-is-sticking-it-out-actually-a-thing-page-2

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*Blah Blah Blah*
Translation: Even though millions love what Realm Reborn is... my *subjective opinion* states how it should be, what it's not, and therefore everybody must agree with me and hate what's obviously an awesome product for so many others. (What was that you were saying about fanboi?)
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			One of the big complainers is Zombie sand he's still here so he's sticking it out :P	
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One of the big complainers is Zombie sand he's still here so he's sticking it out :P
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			It depends on one important question. Got CREDD?	
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If it was that great why did they unsub?
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			sticking it out must be a thing.datascape is completely brokenwarplots are a full on dudbattlegrounds are such a mess can't see anything short of a full pvp rework fixing itgear and stat itemization is totally messed upendgame content is either be the 1% and raid or grind monotonous dailiesclass balance is just out the windowIf it wasn't for "sticking it out" the game would never have a chance to reach the potential it so clearly has	
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Dwindling numbers, poor customer support blah blah blah.....
 
Welcome to the world of any new release MMO....
 
Yes, Rift has better housing, WoW has more players, TSW has better quests, similar combat, but no true endgame....  EVE is unique /zzzz
 
Server merges will happen sooner rather than later....
 
Numerous developers and other staff will be released by carbine/NCSoft
 
It's the same old pattern repeated again and again and again /snore
 
The costs for the development of this game are typically covered by purchases of the game during pre-release/release.  The monthly subscriptions are just gravy.
 
So please, the sky is not falling on your heads....
 
Well not just yet....
 
The true problem facing Carbine is that their end game vision flies in the face of what *most* people on the forums want.  What do they want? Ordered progressions minus the RNG factor.  When do they want it? Now! 
 
Given that this is contrary to how the game has been designed, mapped out, implemented and ultimately released, it is going to take an oil tanker sized u-turn to do this.
 
The problem is, one of NCSofts previous (re-marketed games) was Aion.  The raids in this were notorious for the bosses not dropping loot at all....  Forget Gold or Silver rewards lol.	
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			A shiny new 'State of the Game' would go a long way in helping some people decide whether or not to stick it out.  I'd actually say we're overdue for one.	
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I've heard numerous clanmates tell me that I should just "wait out" the low pops, bugs and pvp imbalances.
 
Is this now what is considered acceptable in mmo's?
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I've heard numerous clanmates tell me that I should just "wait out" the low pops, bugs and pvp imbalances.
 
Is this now what is considered acceptable in mmo's? 
 
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If it was that great why did they unsub?
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What numbers have you seen? Wildstar is currently on par with Lineage II. 
 
Pretty much every MMO ever released had to sift through bugs and glitches for its first 6mo - year. All of them still struggle with precise balancing and bug fixes. Nature of the beast.
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			It is so amusing the complaints, gripes, etc that I see on these forums.  It is the same exact complaints, gripes, etc that I see on every MMO forums lol.  	
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It is so amusing the complaints, gripes, etc that I see on these forums.  It is the same exact complaints, gripes, etc that I see on every MMO forums lol.  
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			Sticking it out also engenders the possibility of getting it chopped off. However it's good to see even the troubled souls playing nice for a change. Which unfortunately took a mod to come in, delete posts and warn the kids to cease their "name calling, insults, trolling, and spam".	
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			You should stick it out if you're having fun in the game, and not if your aren't. It's simple.	
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It's "2 months later" now. This is what the game would have looked like if Carbine had released the game 2 months later. It's not like the devs released the first UltraDrop with 1000+ bug fixes by sitting on their hands.
 
This is the story with every MMO. I guarantee you that whatever new MMO you consider leaving WildStar for will have the forums filled with complaints about the very same thing. It's just not possible to release an MMO with no bug, optimization or balance issues. That's why it's considered acceptable to wait it out.
 
People seem to have it in their heads that since MMOs have been around for years that every new MMO should be more polished and more perfect than the previous one, but they all use a lot of original coding and can't draw upon the innovations of previous MMOs as much as one might think.
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It is so amusing the complaints, gripes, etc that I see on these forums.  It is the same exact complaints, gripes, etc that I see on every MMO forums lol.  
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You'd almost think that developers and publishers would learn by now, wouldn't you?
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I've heard numerous clanmates tell me that I should just "wait out" the low pops, bugs and pvp imbalances.
 
Is this now what is considered acceptable in mmo's? 
 
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Software is extremely difficult to write without bugs. It's a very young discipline in the scope of human history- it doesn't even go back 100 years (considering other professions go back thousands). The way software is written today is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from how it was written 5 years ago. Everything evolves that fast in this industry.
 
When you have an application that has been in progress for 10 years and simply cannot be tested the way it will be utilized in production, it will have issues. There's just no way with current toolsets to do any better.
 
And that's just the technology end of it. There's also gameplay design and decisions that may not workout when people try them vs what you have imagined (for example, the "gold or nothing" attitude that occurred when Carbine never intended gold to be the standard way adventures were run).
 
So yeah, "wait it out" is acceptable because that's the only way a great game is going to happen. The only other option is to not build the game in the first place.	
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EVE is also a game without a timegated cap on character progression. YES, skills take days and months to train, but you are always training them. There's never a period where you say, "I want this skill, but can't work towards it any more this week because of an arbitrary gate that says I get no more skill points after 2 days".
 
Also, EVE creates its own content via the players. CCP releases new WAYS for players to interact with each other and the environment, but the players themselves are always the chief drivers of events. wildstar isn't ever going to be anything like that.
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			It is, but you can get arrested if you do it in public.	
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What, to not have forums?
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Software is extremely difficult to write without bugs.
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This statement is a pet peeve of mine.  Yes, bugs happen.  In a typical software shop the ones that slip through tend to be very subtle or have very little impact.  The obvious ones get caught by the developer unless they commit the cardinal sin of "throwing the code over the wall".  Even those should be caught by a competent QA team.
 
Sure, there are a few subtle issues but there are far too many "should have been caught if the developer unit tested" bugs.
 
It's not "all software has bugs", it's "gaming studios fail at release discipline".
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If this game was selling for 29.99 and had a month free, I might have talked her into it.. but not at the prices it is now.
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This is one thing I agree with. The game is stupidly expensive to get started with. The only reason I managed to talk myself into paying so much for the game is that the game really appealed to me visually and I enjoyed the bit of beta I was in. But to get just your average gamer to plunk down $60 for the game sight unseen, knowing they'd have to then pay $15 a month to play it. That's pretty daunting. 
 
I think most players who do put their money down don't regret it, unless they play like a maniac and run out of things to do in the first month. But, getting people in the door with that high a price is an obstacle to growing the game. There's really no reason for the game to be as expensive as it is initially when it's has a monthly sub. Knock $10+ off the price of normal and deluxe and you're a bit more in the ballpark. 
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This statement is a pet peeve of mine.  Yes, bugs happen.  In a typical software shop the ones that slip through tend to be very subtle or have very little impact.  The obvious ones get caught by the developer unless they commit the cardinal sin of "throwing the code over the wall".  Even those should be caught by a competent QA team.
 
Sure, there are a few subtle issues but there are far too many "should have been caught if the developer unit tested" bugs.
 
It's not "all software has bugs", it's "gaming studios fail at release discipline".
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An MMO on W* scale is difficult to compare to anything from a typical software shop. The network software or editing program I push out is engaged by its users in a mostly predictable fashion; the users of MMO software engage it in ways noone can predict so that alone is part of the reason huge MMOs seem buggier - more code, more users, more unpredictable ways of engaging the software, more bugs.
 
Just because some other software program doesn't seem to have many bugs might be due in part to the fact those bugs just don't get discovered because of scale, the way it is used, etc.
 
One of my pet peeves is the widespread belief that the gals and guys who write and QA the code have control over when the product ships. When you're painting the interiors of 1200 subdivision units, sometimes there are 'holidays' because the carpet guys are coming tomorrow and the tape and texture guys ran late because the sheetrock hangers went slow because deliveries were held up and the... you get the picture.
 
A better test of the studio is how fast those guys and gals can make fixes, not how many went out at release. Be interesting to see what gets fixed in Sabotage this week.
 
A gaming studio failing at release discipline would be more true if they self-finance and self-publish. Not so much when they're owned by a big, soulless corporation.
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I can't think of another media where this is acceptable.
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There are many situations in life where "sticking it out" comes up
 
The restaurant is too busy, you can either wait for your order to be placed and brought to your table, or you can leave the restaurant.  Some would complain and create a scene or ask for some sort of discount but that still doesn't take away from the reality that you have to either wait to be served or leave and go elsewhere.
 
You dropped your car in to the shop and they said will be done today.  Sometimes they won't finish till tomorrow.  You have the option of calling a tow truck and drag the unfinished repair to another shop if you want.  Most of the time you will still have to pay for work already done.  And often it is just easier (and faster) to wait it out.
 
etc. etc.
 
I have no idea how some people's life are so smooth that they think "Sticking it out" is a strange phenomenon.  It is just a simple evaluation of future rewards and alternatives.  If you think Wildstar will improve then stick it out.  If you don't even like the fundamental direction the game is aimed at then you should quit.	
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There are many situations in life where "sticking it out" comes up
 
The restaurant is too busy, you can either wait for your order to be placed and brought to your table, or you can leave the restaurant.  Some would complain and create a scene or ask for some sort of discount but that still doesn't take away from the reality that you have to either wait to be served or leave and go elsewhere.
 
You dropped your car in to the shop and they said will be done today.  Sometimes they won't finish till tomorrow.  You have the option of calling a tow truck and drag the unfinished repair to another shop if you want.  Most of the time you will still have to pay for work already done.  And often it is just easier (and faster) to wait it out.
 
etc. etc.
 
I have no idea how some people's life are so smooth that they think "Sticking it out" is a strange phenomenon.  It is just a simple evaluation of future rewards and alternatives.  If you think Wildstar will improve then stick it out.  If you don't even like the fundamental direction the game is aimed at then you should quit.
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You don't pay the restaurant while you're waiting for a table. You can also create a reservation to prevent excessive waiting. If you're referring to particularly slow service that's generally considered bad form for a restaurant and many customers will leave.
 
An unexpected delay with a mechanic is one thing, though many mechanics will offer courtesy vehicles if the delay is their own fault or if they're waiting on a part will give a timeline based on the logistics. There are laws (At least here) that prevent a mechanic from causing unreasonable delays.
 
Beyond all of that there's no benefit to "sticking it out" in Wildstar compared to unsubbing and resubbing.
 
There is a difference between reasonable patience and sticking it out.
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People have been "sticking it out" in all aspects of life on all sorts of things. 
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"Sticking it out" suggests enduring some kind of hardship, or else staying through to the end regardless of what comes up.
 
Your examples don't follow that ideal at all, they're minor inconveniences which in most situations you wouldn't stick out if they became bad. If the restaurant service is way too slow, you leave. If you mechanic keeps having unexplained delays you hold them accountable.
 
That is why I refuted them as being valid examples, which also refutes your premise that "sticking it out" is an everyday phenomenon. I don't agree that sticking it out is that common in those contexts, also your evaluation of future rewards isn't actually related to the definition. Though it does work as a way to suggest whether or not you should stick something out.
 
There's nothing wrong with the word reasonable. It's just not a constant quantifier. Patience also isn't a debatable word at all..  It's a noun. Of course people will have differing amounts of it.
 
You finally give some examples of "sticking it out" at the end of your post, which is an improvement.
 
All of this ignoring the fact that the OPs entire question was whether sticking it out is a thing in MMOs. You're also ignoring the implicit question of whether we should accept any and all issues in the idea of "sticking it out."	
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Err to get back on track: sure, sticking it out is a thing. A thing most of us won't do if shit doesn't start to get better. If you want to stick it out and have a shitty time playing a game when you could use that same time doing something rewarding that makes you feel good, do it. It's a subjective thing at this point, yeah -- we're going to have to wait a while for the game to get better.
 
People who argue that you are impatient and make personal insults toward your attention span, regardless of what their motivation, are just generally cunts. It's a logical fallacy forums are rife with because of the lack of real life perspective and human contact.	
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Beyond all of that there's no benefit to "sticking it out" in Wildstar compared to unsubbing and resubbing.
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#1 that's what she said...
 
#2 I do believe in 'sticking it out' if i see potential in something.  Obviously if i dont stick around then they dont get my sub payments.  However i dont like it when a gaming company, or any company assumes that as long as they are getting paid they can keep churning out subpar content or services.
 
I tried out several games like TSW, Age of Wushu, DDO and LOTRO.  I'm more likely to stop playing and never come back if i dislike some of the basic game mechanics...I'm actually pretty forgiving of bugs.  TSW i played a fist/chaos and builders and finishers were verrrrry repetitive.  AoW i just couldnt get into so i stopped playing an hour into it.  DDO sound fx were terrible, though that probably was intentional i still didnt like it.  LOTRO combat felt kinda clunky to me.  But other games like STO, SWTOR and WS i'll stick around.  Not because it's sci fi, but because i like Star Trek and Star Wars and early on i had some hope that those games would start releasing content that i liked.  WS overall looks pretty good, i've dealt with a few bugs but nothing gamebreaking.  There maybe 1-2 minor things that are basic gameplay things that if they dont address i may end up going somewhere else.	
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Depends on the individual, their goals, and perspective on the game.
 
In the words of a guildie, some people just want to "log on for an hour and kill stuff" so remaining subbed offers little or no benefit.
 
Another guildie wants server firsts and lives on the bleeding edge of raid progression so staying subbed provides tangible benefit.
 
If a player is bullish on the game's prospects and has the desire to remain in the vanguard there is a benefit to that individual.
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This statement is a pet peeve of mine.  Yes, bugs happen.  In a typical software shop the ones that slip through tend to be very subtle or have very little impact.  The obvious ones get caught by the developer unless they commit the cardinal sin of "throwing the code over the wall".  Even those should be caught by a competent QA team.
 
Sure, there are a few subtle issues but there are far too many "should have been caught if the developer unit tested" bugs.
 
It's not "all software has bugs", it's "gaming studios fail at release discipline".
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I have no idea how some people's life are so smooth that they think "Sticking it out" is a strange phenomenon.  It is just a simple evaluation of future rewards and alternatives.  If you think Wildstar will improve then stick it out.  If you don't even like the fundamental direction the game is aimed at then you should quit.
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Welcome to the instant gratification generation.... If they aren't satisfied now... drop it.. and move on. Doesn't matter what it is...
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I almost never watch a TV show unless it gets a second season, Fox cancels everything good after one season anyways. And Syfy wouldn't know a good Sci Fi show it it slapped them in the face.
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			dbl post	
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Welcome to the instant gratification generation.... If they aren't satisfied now... drop it.. and move on. Doesn't matter what it is...
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I'm level 29.
 
Every time I've logged on to play, I've seen maybe..... 3 lines of player chat.
 
Over several hours.
 
That's what worries me. It feels like a single player game because apparently nobody is even playing :S	
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Welcome to the instant gratification generation.... If they aren't satisfied now... drop it.. and move on. Doesn't matter what it is...
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			isn't "sticking it out" just another phrase for "deal with it"?	
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Yea talk bad about the current "younger" generation. Let's see the generation where more of them are 10x less racist and homophobic then older generations. No matter what people *cupcake* about the younger generation at least I see them being a lot more tolerant than I remember my Generation being.
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Kind of funny what people call the instant-gratification generation.  Since my impression would be that it's the old-school gamers that are the ones that won't accept a lemon... since back in those days, that's not how business was done.  Yet, now and days, the younger gamers are the ones that didn't get to experience where consumers still had footing to throw a wrench in the works, or call fouls on the play.  Now and days, as has been pointed out numerous times... there seems to be this ongoing trend of "newer" gamers that says, "oh yeah, it's normal for games to launch broken and incomplete and still pretty much in an alpha/beta stage, and I'm okay with that", along with the mindset of, "oh, $60 is no big deal... if I wasn't throwing that at a game that washes out, I would have been using it as kindling to start up the fireplace anyways".
 
In the viewpoint of the newer generation being used to newer technology and faster speeds, to say stream video or download files, or even the metaphorical idea of an "easy button" in games, sure, "instant gratification" generation might hold true... however, the dismissal of the fact a product backfires and chugs around like a rusted out old Ford Escort, or actually Ford Pinto might be more fitting, considering -- as opposed to the Porsche or Ferrari it boasted being... well, in that sense, "instant gratification" is a misnomer. :ph34r:
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ZombieTechnix you wrong, older gamers played plenty of lemons, and we suffered through it, and found the diamonds in the rough. We didn't just quit on the drop of a hat. We knew it would get fixed and we adapted. 
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instead what'll probably happen is a slow bleed for a few months/year until everything is fixed up  and the "hardcores" have gnashed their teeths a bit and ran off screaming vengeance.
 
then the game either runs a massive ad campaign or a f2p style deal to attract back players ala ToR or Rift.
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Meh, from playing MMOs for a while I've discovered some weird things about the industry and how it functions.
 
1.  Alphas/Betas suck for finding bugs.  Most people avoid beta because they don't want to ruin the experience when the game hits live (like me), and the people who play beta hardcore are usually brownnosers.  They stay positive and try to get really far up the dev's butt hoping for access to exclusive content, like raiding, and in general their feedback is worthless.  In general hardcore guilds try to keep a good image for the same reason, they don't want to offend the devs and get excluded from raid testing.
 
2.   Most MMO companies believe subscription losses are a set thing.  They believe after launch X amount of people will hardly play, X% will only play for the free month, X% for a year, X% for multiple years.  In general their marketing departments are horrible, and don't do the proper marketing research to segment the market.  It's why games like The Secret World invested next to nothing in endgame and fail, they're just trying to push more sales and believe sales lead to subscriptions, so they lie their asses off and overpromise to get people to buy and deliver garbage.
 
Wildstar seems a little different to me in the sense that they're going for the hardcore crowd.  I think they were trying for a niche market and got more sales then they thought they would, which is a good thing.  Until the game does a '70% of devs are laid off' thing the game should get better and is worth my time (as long as my guild is playing).	
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It is possible to release a MMO with no bug, optimization or balance issues - it just isn't practical.
Games can't stay in beta for 10 years; launching 2 months early probably cost them a few subs.  
 
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I will always keep a soft spot for this game. The style and lore are unique and I really like that.
I was very burned out of the so called theme-park MMO's but WS made me want to try one more.
After 1.5 month of playing and doing dailies for a couple weeks, no, just no. Same shi*t different game. Really, after all these years, all they can come up with is static daily quest.. Ugh, I feel old.
Just so I can get lvl 50, get cookie cutter build and blend in, meh.
There is just too much stuff I come to expect with playing MMO's for the last 15 years that WS simply not have or poorly implemented, oh boy is that list long.
It feels like WS launched with waaaay to many features so they all feel half assed. And then there is attunement, I'm not writing anymore about that.
Then the cost of making your character unique, all is way overpriced and the only thing that comes to mind is F2P.
 
Ill keep an eye out for WS, but having NCSoft there is having me fear the worse.	
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I never said old gamers didn't adapt... my point was the idea of older "consumers"... back in the day, consumers had a bit more right to stand on, "what the hell am I paying for here"... where as now and days, they're told to shut the heck up and just accept it... and the latter is now considered more the norm... which has been more than apparent on the forums as well.
 
Not to mention, the argument can also be easily made, especially from any old-school gamer that was there, that games launched a hell of a lot more stable back then, and got lots more Q/A testing before launch, etc.  Granted now and days, due to more complex coding and tighter budgets, both are nearly impossible... but still doesn't mean they shouldn't be given the same quality and care. :ph34r:
 
PS - Old school gamers adapted aye?  Hrm... you obviously never played on a Virtual Boy... or perhaps you were one that was okay with the mind-blowing prices of the 3DO system.  Come to think of it, always thought the Power-Glove had potential... never got to try one before every consumer that tried it drummed it off the market.  Oh, and then there was the time EA pretty much took a dump all over what was supposed to be Ultima Online 2 which caused Richard Garriot to walk out... wasn't much chance at "adapting" then... or when Roberta and Ken Williams stepped down from Sierra On-Line, and the new owner scrapped all the projects they promised they wouldn't and sealed away the trademarks and copyrights... wasn't a whole lot of adapting then either.  Yet, oddly, you make old-school gaming sound like nothing but sunshine and daisies, interesting.  Also don't recall there was a whole lot of "adapting" going on during Warhammer Online.  Oh yeah, almost forgot about Matrix Online as well... yeah, that experience was just marvelous also.  (Or the looming elephant in the room... yeah, City of Heroes... and what became of that at, ironically, the hands of the same publisher as what we're playing now... *giggle* :lol:)
 
PPS - As far as "bugs", a good amount of bugs in game were ones that were reported back in early beta and still haven't been fixed... major-issue bugs.  Kind of like how system optimization still isn't that "phenomenal", or the many forums going up about bots/cheaters/hackers that have been seen by the devs/admin and still never seem to get dealt with.  As can be seen here: https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/103389-24-hours-later-blatant-hackers-still-in-game-doing-it/   ;)
 
(Kind of interesting how after the fact people keep trying to shift the goal-posts.)
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A few subs?
 
My guild had over 100 members, only 10 still play. Out of the hundred lets say 50 where only there for the first month, that still leaves 40% of the people that left while their subs where still active, i know that at least 15 of them paid for 3 months and havent been online for over 5 weeks. I myself paid for 3 months and cant bring myself to log in anymore.
 
For me it isn't about a few bugs, i expect them. For me it is about the direction they have/are taking with PvP and the lack of comunication to the playerbase.
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			If Carbine eases up significantly on their Time gate obsession people will start coming back. From all the people I've spoken to that quit not one of them said it was because the game was to hard. Most said it took too long to do things and that they didn't want to waste their time.	
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If Carbine eases up significantly on their Time gate obsession people will start coming back. From all the people I've spoken to that quit not one of them said it was because the game was to hard. Most said it took too long to do things and that they didn't want to waste their time.
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isn't "sticking it out" just another phrase for "deal with it"?
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I've heard numerous clanmates tell me that I should just "wait out" the low pops, bugs and pvp imbalances.
 
Is this now what is considered acceptable in mmo's? 
 
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I don't think you can get that many people to come back to something they're disgusted with. Timegating was only one of the issues many people had with the game.
 
Fixing it might lower the number of people quitting, but just saying "You won't be wasting your time as much now!" isn't going to pull people off the other games they've chosen to play.
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If Carbine eases up significantly on their Time gate obsession people will start coming back. From all the people I've spoken to that quit not one of them said it was because the game was to hard. Most said it took too long to do things and that they didn't want to waste their time.
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