107953-the-nexus-report-nerfing-the-attunement-page-7

Page 1, Page 2, Page 3, Page 4, Page 5, Page 6, Page 7, Page 8
== Content ==
			
{| class="blockquote"
You're scared because more people might be able to take a stab at a chunk of game content. Ooooooh no, the horror!
 
I for one welcome this change. More people playing content the devs spent hard work and long hours on is a good thing.
 
 
I think this is way overstating it. The attunement process is still there, which means there will still be people walled off from the raid. Y'all are acting like the whole process was removed.
----
			
The whine in this thread is too damn high.  All of you should be ashamed but especially those so called hardcore guys.  There is no whining in hardcore, suck it up and move on.  I liked the old attunement process myself, I liked the timed dungeons, however they were standing in the way of raid content for a large portion of the game.  Not because they couldn't do them potentially but they couldn't find a group to help them learn them, now maybe pugs wont be so quick to drop a group once silver is lost.  That is the biggest problem with any game is keeping the most subs to make the game profitable, all the raiders should be happy that now the game has a chance to retain subs, maybe bring back people who have left because the raid gate has been raised just a bit to allow more people in, if they nerf raid content later on so be it, if you already did it on the hardest level then it should not matter, just means boss goes down quicker.
 
Be glad Carbine is actively trying to do things to save the game, they are not going to dumb down their own game to a point where it is not a challenge but just trying to give more people something to strive for is a good thing.  Lets hope it works.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Honestly, there's no reason to keep arguing about this because the changes are going in. I accept the change. But this argument always grates on me. I've read it a thousand times and it's still bad because you are knocking down a strawman. It isn't whether timers are present in GA or not. It's whether what you do to beat timers is relevant in GA.
 
Raiding requires teamwork and organization. Dungeons with timers requires more teamwork and organization than dungeons without them. Therefore, timers help you raid better by teaching you to work together as a team better.
 
For example, as a DPS you can get bronze on STL without having an interrupt on your bar as long as the other two DPS and tank each have two on theirs. In fact, you can probably get all bronze without knowing what a moment of opportunity is. Whereas every group I've been in that is wanting to do silvers talks about how interrupts will be coordinated and organizes so we are working as a team.
 
It isn't whether the mechanics are the same. There are lots of different mechanics in the game. The mechanics of a timer pushes people to more teamwork, a skill that will be useful when the players hit raids that, while employing different mechanics, also require teamwork. A lot more players are now going to hit raids unprepared. Maybe that's OK. In the end, the game can only do so much to get people ready.
 
However, to say that timed runs are irrelevant for raiding is not accurate. 20 people that have done timed runs successfully will start off better in raids than 20 people who haven't.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
but they couldn't find a group to help them learn them
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
aaaaaaaand you've completely missed the point of the thread.
Please, read the entire OP before making comments - I'm not trying to be rude, but your comment literally serves no purpose, as it doesn't reply to the topic of discussion in this thead.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
There won't be any players left at that point.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
aaaaaaaand you've completely missed the point of the thread.
Please, read the entire OP before making comments - I'm not trying to be rude, but your comment literally serves no purpose, as it doesn't reply to the topic of discussion in this thead.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
A properly-led guild will be taking any and all players on trial runs, and that includes places other than the raid, regardless of what achievements they say they have earned.
 
This change for me is about the philosophy behind it. It unequivocally clears the path for everyone to enter the raid. This means that the folks who could not, or would not, for any reason clear 4 silver dungeons will now have access to the hardest content in the game. In any MMORPG. 
Their complaints will transfer to that new target and influence Carbine in ways that go against the core principles of the game as it was sold to us. This is not up for debate - it will happen.
 
Right now, there's no reason to believe that Carbine will not, at that point, make the raid more accessible for players who again cannot play by the rules.
 
The best hope of stopping  this is to put skill back into the equation NOW, before this change goes live. Instead, change the medal system:
 
Bronze - All optional objectives.
Silver - Bronze + All challenges.
Gold - Silver + No deaths.
 
There is no timer on any of these.
Then they can make at least Silver the requirement to attunement again.
 
It's the only fair thing to do given how WildStar was sold on skill and will make sure that players who enter the raid do so with the skill they need to compete and not have an even worse experience than in the dungeons.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It does serve a purpose. It shows that they are in favor of this change. Stop trying to censor people.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
If you can't play the content ahead of the hard content, which this change indicates you can't, then you're just ruining the game for the people who can.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
If you can't play the content ahead of the hard content, which this change indicates you can't, then you're just ruining the game for the people who can.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
And gradually bringing other gamers back over time. WoD has them behind the eight-ball, but after the initial WoD rush? There's a loooooooot of time between that and the next big release.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You're scared because more people might be able to take a stab at a chunk of game content. Ooooooh no, the horror!
 
I for one welcome this change. More people playing content the devs spent hard work and long hours on is a good thing.
 
 
I think this is way overstating it. The attunement process is still there, which means there will still be people walled off from the raid. Y'all are acting like the whole process was removed.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It's not 'Can't', it's 'Choose not to'.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
There is no way to NOT get a Bronze.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You're scared because more people might be able to take a stab at a chunk of game content. Ooooooh no, the horror!
 
I for one welcome this change. More people playing content the devs spent hard work and long hours on is a good thing.
 
 
I think this is way overstating it. The attunement process is still there, which means there will still be people walled off from the raid. Y'all are acting like the whole process was removed.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
There is no way to NOT get a Bronze.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Maybe in your circles. The only guilds interested in doing things fast in raids are ones to whom the content has lost all challenge. The same is true of dungeons and thus another reason for the change.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
how are they ruining anything? They get to SEE the inside of a zone. So what?
 
IF they can't kill anything and whine and cry and moan which leads to content nerfs then yes, we have a huge problem. But if the only change is about accessibility to the content there isn't an issue.
People that aren't skilled/coordinated enough will have to wait for content to naturally nerf itself through players getting more powerful. They will eventually see the content by way of getting carried/dragged. And guess what, these people are probably used to seeing content that way.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Wow, you're either selectively reading posts and ignoring others, or you're choosing to play the part of the ignorant troll.
 
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
There is no way to NOT get a Bronze.
 
Again:
 
1) Modify the medal system. Bronze = all optional objectives. Silver = Bronze + all challenges. Gold = Silver + no deaths.
2) Reinstate Silver as the medal requirement for attunement.
 
Win-win. It's the best solution to preserve skill and keep Carbine's promise of difficult content.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I hope that's the truth. But every single experience I have tells me otherwise. We'll see.
 
I am not interested in "locking" players out of content... I don't have an elitist attitude despite what it may look like. I just want rewards to matter again. I want there to be effort and teamwork and skill in attaining them. This is what WildStar promised, but here less than 2 months out, is backpedalling on.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I am not interested in "locking" players out of content... 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Censor people? In what way?
His post doesn't address mine in any form.
 
The topic of debate isn't the fact that we're "scared more people will get to take a stab at the harder content" - refer to my post above, there's really no reason for me to post what my statement was for an 8th time.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I hope that's the truth. But every single experience I have tells me otherwise. We'll see.
 
I am not interested in "locking" players out of content... I don't have an elitist attitude despite what it may look like. I just want rewards to matter again. I want there to be effort and teamwork and skill in attaining them. This is what WildStar promised, but here less than 2 months out, is backpedalling on.
----
			
Wizardry online, only a year after release, was taken offline permanently as of July 31, 2014.
 
Boasted the most "hardcore" MMO on the market proved to be a fatal marketing strategy for the game.
 
If you want to play a hard game, Wildstar is still hard. If you want empty servers, make sure content is too hard for the average guy to complete.
 
You'll reach a point where your little niche of players gets so small that subscription costs alone cannot maintain a game, and said game will go offline permanently shortly after going F2P.
 
Stop your QQing about allowing people to complete content. Time requirements were never a "skill" check anyway (RNG, disconnects, exploiting bugs, avoiding mobs, etc.)
 
I did my silver dungeon runs, but that doesn't make me special. I'm not better than anyone else who hasn't. Stop waving your gigantic epeens around and screaming HARDCORE at the top of your lungs, and accept that the original business model of the company you claim fidelity to is not sustainable.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
There is no way to NOT get a Bronze. Which means the attunement is more of a false gate than ever, since there's no gameplay challenge to overcome. Just a matter of course.
 
Again:
 
1) Modify the medal system. Bronze = all optional objectives. Silver = Bronze + all challenges. Gold = Silver + no deaths.
2) Reinstate Silver as the medal requirement for attunement.
 
Win-win. It's the best solution to preserve skill and keep Carbine's promise of difficult content.
----
			
Hey everybody, 
 
I need to throw a flag on the play for a bit. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, disagreements are fine but there is a right and wrong way to go about it. 
 
Keep in mind rule #1 from the CoC:
 
1. We Won't Always Agree: You are welcome to disagree with anything you are exposed to on the WildStar forums. There will be a lot of things to disagree with, both amongst yourselves, and with the Carbine Development and Community teams. And, that’s okay! Just remember to keep your disagreements respectful, courteous, and polite.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Encounter timers != zone timers. Not by a long shot.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
What I am afraid of is when THESE PEOPLE GET TO RAIDS, and START OVERCOMPLAINING ABOUT RAIDS TOO, and they DUMB DOWN THE RAIDS!!!
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
If you want to play a hard game, Wildstar is still hard. If you want empty servers, make sure content is too hard for the average guy to complete.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Lies.
 
Groups disband mid run, or end with no medal from taking too long and wiping over and over.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
If they can't do that with a 5-man group, how do they expect to find a raid group to help them learn?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Why is that your problem.  This was one of the biggest complaints about the game, even Carbine noticed people were just stuck here at this point in the process.  If people join a guild for raiding or have a guild that gets through this process now because it has been made a bit easier then go die in a raid every night for 4 hours, I don't care and neither should you.  If they don't even get to raid we should not care.  The point being is now they wont be complaining how they are locked out of raid by a artificial game design decision.  Notice we haven't had one complaint since yesterday about how hard the attunement process is or how stupid time dungeons are, it has been the so called "best" players in the game not wanting to share their sandbox.
----
			
I wouldn't care if there was no attunement process at all, I'm just worried that the same group that QQ'd to get attunement nerfed will then move on to QQ about GA and get it nerfed as well.
For those saying this isn't a nerf, how is it not?  They took something that people complained about as being too difficult and made it easier for them... that's a nerf in my book.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I take back anything bad I might have said about you before. My apologies.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Why is that your problem.  This was one of the biggest complaints about the game, even Carbine noticed people were just stuck here at this point in the process.  If people join a guild for raiding or have a guild that gets through this process now because it has been made a bit easier then go die in a raid every night for 4 hours, I don't care and neither should you.  If they don't even get to raid we should not care.  The point being is now they wont be complaining how they are locked out of raid by a artificial game design decision.  Notice we haven't had one complaint since yesterday about how hard the attunement process is or how stupid time dungeons are, it has been the so called "best" players in the game not wanting to share their sandbox.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I wouldn't care if there was no attunement process at all, I'm just worried that the same group that QQ'd to get attunement nerfed will then move on to QQ about GA and get it nerfed as well.
For those saying this isn't a nerf, how is it not?  They took something that people complained about as being too difficult and made it easier for them... that's a nerf in my book.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I wouldn't care if there was no attunement process at all, I'm just worried that the same group that QQ'd to get attunement nerfed will then move on to QQ about GA and get it nerfed as well.
For those saying this isn't a nerf, how is it not?  They took something that people complained about as being too difficult and made it easier for them... that's a nerf in my book.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
When did you say something bad about me. LOL.
 
I make no secret that I really enjoy this game.  I didn't like attunement, I thought Pyralos was just an annoying pain in the ass that didn't teach me anything other than how to waste my time and be annoyed, but I love the game and was going to put up with it because of that.  I like the challenge of gold and silver in dungeons, I just don't think progression needs to be tied to that, completing the dungeon should be enough for progression.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I think most people here who are glad about the change would make a distinction between a nerf to content and a nerf to the requirements for accessing content.
 
You can still run silver dungeons if you want to. They have not been nerfed at all.
 
You can still run raids if you want to. They have not been nerfed at all.
 
Attunement isn't content. It's a checklist. They nerfed a checklist. They didn't nerf content.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Raiding = wiping until you get it right.
 
Dungeons pre-change were = if you wipe once, leave, find others.
Dungeons after-change will be = wiping until you get it right.
 
Those who want Silver and Gold havn't been affected 1% by the change. Those attuning for raids will get a better learning environment for said raids. Epic run where you wiped 10 times, repaired your gear and finished it? You're attuned.
 
That takes more effort then wipe once, 'outta here' toxic runs.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
They took something that people complained about as being too difficult and made it easier for them... that's a nerf in my book.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I'm for just removing the "artificial game design". The attunement process serves really no purpose. Anyone saying that its teaching you PVE concepts that actually does not entirely follow clearly, because when did it every do that? All the content up to Dungeons and even the content after was/is puggable. That's the real issue here. There's an illusory game design, and one aspect in it is not puggable. Hence its being reworked to be puggable.  That's the issue. Timer or no: the problem is pugs fall apart on this content. Now keeping that in mind if we're just keeping in attunements at this point its entirely illusory and serves no purpose, its just something added to pug. You will not be raiding with the pugs you pugged attunement with. So unless we're suddenly doing LFR, which is probably likely, attunement serves no purpose. Remove Attunement.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Summed up my feelings on attunement perfectly.  Thanks!
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Hey I would not be against that either, make attunement just be get your genesis key and make dungeons used to actually gear up for the raid.  But the attunement is what we got so I am going to do it because I like this game
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Here's the thing that keeps getting said and I'm left scratching my head.
 
Whoever said it was too difficult?
 
Tedious to the point that guilds were splitting up rather than help others attune? Sure. A horsehockey skill check as it was easily exploited? Yup. Even more horsehockey when four players could carry a guildie / paying customer? Certainly.
 
But too difficult? Who said that?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Why does this check list exist. Remove it.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Why does this check list exist. Remove it.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Dude, all servers are pretty much low pop, something had to give otherwise we'd be having this chat in a 'remember Wildstar' thread on another forum.
 
This is a good step forward to fixing that.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Pugs tend to be horrible yes, lol. Hence why they are called pugs (pick up group). Guilds are meaningless apparently in this game. Remove attunement, throw in LFR and let's get this over with.
----
			
I'm seeing a really odd (but hardly unprecedented) break from reality in a lot of these posts.
 
Comment 1: "Carbine is changing the attunement rules and that will lead to nerfing raids!"
 
Comment 2: "No, they won't nerf raids, they're just giving the casuals a chance to see the raids!"
 
Both of these statements are wrong-headed. 
 
In regard to Comment 1: I think you can quite reasonably assume that Carbine is changing the attunement rules because a lot of people requested changes along these lines, and Carbine considered whether that was a change they could make and wanted to make. They decided it was both, and they made it.  They did this because they are a BUSINESS, and they need to keep enough of their client base happy in order to stay in business and keep the video game development jobs that they presumably enjoy.  There was a perceived need or demand here, and they decided to answer it, because they are a for-profit organization and that is what for-profits do. Whether or not this will lead to "nerfing raids" is completely beside the point. This decision was made NOW to answer the needs of the game NOW.  If they don't have a certain amount of success in the short term, THERE WILL BE NO LONG TERM, nerfed or not nerfed.  
 
In regard to Comment 2:  Well, they might nerf raids, or they might not.  Being a for-profit business, they should not pull any options off the table that might keep their doors open.  If it looks like raid nerfing will benefit the game and help Carbine stay in business, of course they will nerf raids.  It may or may not be necessary for them, and based on their public statements, it's something they would rather not do.  But if it's a choice between nerfing raids to keep the game viable and refusing to nerf raids so that their IP dies and they all need to go find new jobs (in a field where that's really tough to do) -- you better damn betcha they will nerf the living crap out of those raids, if that's what's necessary to keep the game going. 
 
If these "Hardcores" (actually "exclusives") genuinely think that Carbine is going to happily scupper their entire operation rather than nerf a raid, I have some LOVELY swampland in Florida that will make an ideal retirement home for you.  Going super cheap.  
 
So yeah, this is a sign that Carbine isn't terribly happy with how some aspects of the game are being received, and they are willing to try to make adjustments. This is normal, healthy, and good business, and I am very glad to see that they're doing it.  It means they haven't given up on Wildstar.  They may have had to adjust some of their ideas of how to keep the game viable, and some of those ideas might be hard for them to swallow, but they are grown-ups.  No one likes to be shown to be wrong, but adults adapt and keep plugging. This is a good thing. They will do what they need to, in order to keep their business going.  
 
I note that the hardcores screaming "NO NERFFFFSSS!! STAY TRUE CARBINE!" aren't the ones whose families are going to need to sell the home and relocate to a new state and give up on the kids' college funds or their own retirement funds in order to "STAY PURE!!!"  It's really far too easy for those selfish creeps to insist that it's better for Carbine to go under than to change and bend to customer demand as necessary to keep their game alive.  It's pretty despicable, honestly.  Carbine is a company made of real people, and real people need money to function. It's as simple as that.  You have no call whatsoever in trying to pile shame on Carbine's collective head just because they are doing what's necessary to keep Wildstar viable. 
 
So yes, Carbine may very well nerf raids, if that's necessary.  Because they are grown-ups. Because they presumably like their jobs and want to keep them.  I sincerely hope none of them are so crazed as to give up their financial security just so they can say they kept their promises to a tiny, tiny minority of their customers (albeit the loudest bunch.)  I believe they won't nerf raids unless it's deemed necessary -- but they're the only ones who know what needs to be done to keep the lights on.  
 
About the only thing the Exclusives can do, if they're willing, is start buying up a TON of CREDD and flooding the in-game CREDD market with it. Keep the participation bar low enough for the casuals and some of them will likely stick around even if they're not enjoying the game that much. The Exclusives might end up each subsidizing five or more casuals and shelling out, oh, $115 a month for Wildstar (one sub plus five CREDD each) to make sure Carbine has no need to nerf raids.  If they're willing to subsidize the content like that, more power to them -- you pay more money, you deserve to get more consideration from the company.  But you'd better get enough Exclusives together to make sure this will fly.  If I were you, I'd get busy organizing your SAVE THE HARDCORE rallies right now and get moving. Maybe even set up a Kickstarter for it or something!    You want the hardcore material catered to you? Put your money where your mouth is and keep Carbine in business.  	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Eh, I wouldn't go that far, honestly. The checklist is to demonstrate:
 
Familiarity with your character and their abilities (level 50 requirement)
 
Familiarity with how to form large groups and work together (world bosses/event requirement)
 
Familiarity with dedicated roles on teams (dungeons/adventures requirement)
 
There's a point to it, and the new requirements still require you to demonstrate those things. But the point isn't to prove that you can win a raid before you ever set foot in one, nor is it to make recruiting easier to the most elitist guilds in the game. The point is that you know the basics. The raid itself ought to be the point at which you learn how to go from completing non-raid content to completing the raid.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Pugs tend to be horrible yes, lol. Hence why they are called pugs (pick up group). Guilds are meaningless apparently in this game. Remove attunement, throw in LFR and let's get this over with.
----
			
While it does suck that I had to grind my way through the attunment before this nerf, I do not see this as a horrible thing. It does make it harder to see who the good raiders will be, however there are other ways. My only concern is what Baelix brought up. If all people have to do is complain about something as small as silver dungeons. What happens when they can not beat the first mini boss in GA? I do not know about everyone else, but I only play this game for the raids. I bought this game because it had hard raids. I did not buy this game because it had a hard attunment. So for now I am fine with the changes. Even though I had to get attuned the hard way. But the second Carbine starts making unnecessary nerfs to my raid content, I will leave. I can understand nerfing a boss because the best guilds in the world can not get passed it. But if you start nerfing bosses so that all the under skilled players can beat it, I will be out of here. Carbine has said from the beginning that this is a hardcore mmo, with hardcore raids. If you turn your back on that at any point, and start making raids easier when they do not need to be, you will lose my money. I give the developers the benefit of the doubt until I have a reason to not trust them. Please do not mess this up Carbine. I really do not want to go back to WoW, but I will if need be.
 
TLDR: I did not buy this game because it had a hard attunment. Nerf it if you want. But the second you start nerfing raids I am gone. Please do not mess this game up by catering to the casuals. 	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Its a useless time synch, but yeah that's what I mean. They should just let 50s raid then. There's no point in this back and forth. Remove attunement, it will bring more back in then just a hop-song dance band-aid around dungeons, which again were the only non-puggable thing, that's what this is really about, and give the community what it wants, an entirely puggable game.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
That's not what this thread is about. Feel free to start a thread stating that.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
That doesn't even make sense or address what I said or the post I quoted.  No guild group walked in a dungeon and got a silver medal on their first run.
 
There was a disconnect in what was required to raid and what you actually did in the raid and it's been fixed.
 
I'm also doing the attunement for the *second time*.  Just remove the stupid thing or make it account wide.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Why is that your problem.  This was one of the biggest complaints about the game, even Carbine noticed people were just stuck here at this point in the process.  If people join a guild for raiding or have a guild that gets through this process now because it has been made a bit easier then go die in a raid every night for 4 hours, I don't care and neither should you.  If they don't even get to raid we should not care.  The point being is now they wont be complaining how they are locked out of raid by a artificial game design decision.  Notice we haven't had one complaint since yesterday about how hard the attunement process is or how stupid time dungeons are, it has been the so called "best" players in the game not wanting to share their sandbox.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Actually, one group in my guild walked into vet KV and got silver first try.
 
But that aside, could someone explain to me why magically everything will be better when you're attuned? Because that's basically what it sounds like to me. "Omg, attunement too hard/tedious/too much time/can't pug it etc etc" but then when you start raiding you suddenly have the skill, the patience, the time, the people and so on in order to raid?
 
I just don't understand that sentiment, won't this change simply move the problem from silver dungeons onto the first miniboss in GA and then we'll have this entire thing start over again with this time around GA being too "tedious" (Because obviously, it's never too hard) and anyone that cleared GA up till then simply "exploited" it or got "carried"?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Doesn't every class get most of its abilities (if not all by 31~31)?
 
While true, builds and rotations change completely at 45 when you unlock T8 and can't t8 2 skills and t4 one until 49.
 
Based on what is said in this thread no one is trying to form groups for any of this they are trying to pug everything, so that part of the attunement really is an illusion. As stated previously "dungeons should be puggable" pretty sure that was said.
 
All classes can dps, and I'm pretty sure for most players they leveled as DPS. If someone was considering tank or heals they probably already were running with a designated guild group or had that intention. This is apart and separate from attunement entirely, and attunement in no way, unless dungeons were not puggable and you needed a guild or group to regularly do it facilitated that. This change definitely goes in the opposite direction.
 
You're right about some tanks/heals already having a group.  My first attunement was done on my Engi tank.  However, now I'm doing it on a spellslinger, on a different server, and was absolutely dreading the idea of having to bother my guild to go through it again or pug silvers.
 
Now I'm not saying any of this is wrong, its a sound business move. I'm just saying we need to stop calling this a nerf or an issue with "timed" runs, again no one said this was hard. Everyone said "I can't PUG this". This is about puggging. Notice that no other step is even mentioned here in the attunement process. The only part that pugs were ineffective for is the part of attunement being called out. THIS IS NOT COINCIDENCE. Remove attunement and let's be done with it.
 
I agree - remove attunement.  The entire point of attunement was to artificially extend the duration existing content in the game lasted players.  Players (for the most part) don't like it.  The dungeon portion was out of place as I think you even are trying to say - as every single part of attunement outside of 4 dungeons IS puggable.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
That's false cause... we cannot draw a conclusion that this change was made due to population. Carbine didn't state that unless someone can prove they did.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I'm not saying that's what this thread is about
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
When you say make it puggable, do you mean allow people to form pick up groups and go actually attempt the content, or do you mean make the content so a pug group can go complete it easily.  I don't want a lfr system if it means dumbing the content down for that system.  Pugs or guild group should do the same content with the same rewards.  However I am fine with anyone being able to run in and trying to complete the content.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Because... these people will have an invariably worse experience when (if) they hit the raids, and then they start to insist on changes to raid content... which in turn becomes my issue.
 
I think you are misinterpreting what Carbine meant by "stuck". If players cannot clear this content they cannot have success raiding... so opening the floodgates to non-capable raiders (again, not just due to skill... maybe schedule, maybe social issues) is going to open them up to an even worse experience.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
While it does suck that I had to grind my way through the attunment before this nerf, I do not see this as a horrible thing. It does make it harder to see who the good raiders will be, however there are other ways. My only concern is what Baelix brought up. If all people have to do is complain about something as small as silver dungeons. What happens when they can not beat the first mini boss in GA? I do not know about everyone else, but I only play this game for the raids. I bought this game because it had hard raids. I did not buy this game because it had a hard attunment. So for now I am fine with the changes. Even though I had to get attuned the hard way. But the second Carbine starts making unnecessary nerfs to my raid content, I will leave. I can understand nerfing a boss because the best guilds in the world can not get passed it. But if you start nerfing bosses so that all the under skilled players can beat it, I will be out of here. Carbine has said from the beginning that this is a hardcore mmo, with hardcore raids. If you turn your back on that at any point, and start making raids easier when they do not need to be, you will lose my money. I give the developers the benefit of the doubt until I have a reason to not trust them. Please do not mess this up Carbine. I really do not want to go back to WoW, but I will if need be.
 
TLDR: I did not buy this game because it had a hard attunment. Nerf it if you want. But the second you start nerfing raids I am gone. Please do not mess this game up by catering to the casuals. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The original statements were somewhere along the lines of, "I can't pug this", further, "I can't go with premade groups or guild groups". Reasons given:
 
1) They don't have time to help me. (but I'm not going to leave my "friends" to search for other who would)
2) Circles are dead on my server and don't help.
3) No one is on when I'm on
 
So "when I try to pug this I get stuck on this stage because pugs are, as they always have been, toxic. A wipe, one player death "we're not going to make time disband." The PUGs disband when they are faced with this issue. Solution, you need to make the content puggable it was the same issue happening to an extent but not this great of an extent in vet adventures. To do that? Remove timer. In this instance one death wipe, PUG should not randomly leave because attunement is still possible, bronze would merely require completion.  The content becomes puggable.
 
Given that, then what is the purpose of the attunement?
 
1) It no longer teaches you or gets you used to grouping with a consistent group who you will be raiding with because these are pugs.
2) It no longer teaches you how to effectively MoO because there is no timer, so take all the time you want, and pugs rarely if ever get into any voice chat so communication is zero.
3) There is an argument that it teaches class roles but its tenuous at best since you learn all your abilities by 31~32
 
What it does do at this point is merely create an unnecessary time synch and prevent players from raiding as soon as they hit 50. Therefore, by this time with these changes especially it really does not serve any kind of legitimate purpose.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
So wait if Carbine nerfs raids just a little bit you will quit and go to the game that has most heavily nerfed their raid content to the point where a cat can probably go spastic on the keyboard and complete the raid.  At least say you will go play Eve or Mortal Online some hard game instead of threatening to go the easiest game in the market.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
That doesn't even make sense or address what I said or the post I quoted.  No guild group walked in a dungeon and got a silver medal on their first run.
 
There was a disconnect in what was required to raid and what you actually did in the raid and it's been fixed.
 
I'm also doing the attunement for the *second time*.  Just remove the stupid thing or make it account wide.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
no they didn't but a PUG is not going to sit there with you and wait to learn the fight. If they do that is incredibly rare. Most do a quick vote to quit just based on the challenge given, don't even have to wipe. Am I wrong or right on that?  So the change really is to make sure that this kind of thing does not happen. To make the content puggable. That's all I'm saying. And if that's the case then it really doesn't serve any legitimate purpose to raids unless you intend to implement an LFR system. Until then, remove attunement.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I am not interested in "locking" players out of content...
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
THEN START YOUR OWN THREAD. Not posting about what the thread is about is called derailing. You are derailing.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The common feeling among most players that are in the game to raid is that they are willing to spend more time in a raid on a boss fight. It should be tough to do and should take a while to complete. People are more willing to hit the brick wall of a raid vs an attunement process. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I hear Wizardry Online is a super hardcore game. Maybe he could go there.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Uh, the "gold or die" mentality is nearly completely gone from pug adventures after the changes.  I know this, because I'm pugging them for rep - *again*.
 
Plenty of PUG groups will spend time learning fights together.  The only reason groups disbanded were because of the horrible way loot/attunement has been tied to medals.
----
			Argeas, attunement never serves a purpose other than to stretch content out some for the developers.  Leveling didn't teach you about adventures, adventures didn't get you ready for dungeons, and dungeons wont get you ready for raiding.  If you didn't learn to get out of the red by level 30 or so then you can be taught.  If you didn't learn to interrupt cast by 50 then you wont be taught.  Mastering one aspect of the game does not mean the other aspects will be easier.  I am sure raiding will be just as much of a learning experience and dungeons were as adventures were before that.  As I said attunement means nothing to me either way, it never did, if I didn't like the game I wouldn't play, I do like it so I am going to do what I need to do to raid, if they removed attunement tomorrow I would be just as happy.  More people need to quit nitpicking one or two things and if they like the game stay with it, if not move on to something else.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Far from. The issue, the real issue, is the content is being asked to be puggable, again no one said it was hard no one said they could not do it, the real underliner is "I can't pug this".  If the content is being asked to be puggable then the question is "why is the content even here?" THAT IS EXTREMELY RELEVANT TO THE CONVERSATION.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The common feeling among most players that are in the game to raid is that they are willing to spend more time in a raid on a boss fight. It should be tough to do and should take a while to complete. People are more willing to hit the brick wall of a raid vs an attunement process. 
----
			
I'm currently in a guild working on Kuralak. We have plenty of people attuned (I think last count was ~36 attuned folks, and a couple more on world boss step). As far as I know, nobody in my guild purchased any silver runs, but I, and a few others, definitely helped clear SSM before it's content nerf. After it got nerfed, most people were able to complete it on their own, without using experienced folks to boost them through it. 
 
You know what? We still have plenty of people that are bad at their class. We still have plenty of people that struggle to play at the level required to down GA bosses. We have lots of people that pretty consistently die in phase 1 of Kuralak (if you haven't been, it's predictable, the same every time, and in order to down the boss, you absolutely cannot have a single death in phase 1. There is no reason, having done it once or watched it a few times, to EVER die in phase 1, except due to computer or internet related issues). 
 
You know how we'll get those people to be better at downing GA bosses? Fighting and repeating the encounters in GA.
 
I got this game to raid. I did not get this game to repeat 5 man content ad naseum. The trailers that got me excited were RAID trailers, nothing else. It's annoying, lame, and stupid to be blocked from doing the content you want for basically no reason other than "because we said so". Now that I'm in the raid, honestly, I think GA could actually do with a difficulty increase. For one thing, the fact that I basically don't need my interrupts, after being trained throughout all of my silver attempts that interrupts and MoOs reign supreme, just strikes me as kind of silly. You need some interrupts on some trash, but X-89 and Kuralak basically need either zero or one per person. 
 
Also, for all those people saying "if you can't do silvers, you can't do GA" - I'm on a low pop server, with only 2 exile raiding guilds. The guild that got server first X-89 has 2 groups going, and has been working on Kuralak for almost a month. The guild I'm in has only been raiding for 1 week, mostly because we are the remnants of several other guilds that imploded due to toxic attitudes, players leaving (frustration with silvers, mainly), etc.
 
You would think that the guild oriented towards server firsts would be filled with better players, right? That, since they were able to get through silvers faster means, they'll clear GA faster, right? 
 
So why is it that my guild cleared X-89 on our first night of attempts, and is already getting Kuralak lower than their best attempts?
 
Oh, could it be because clearing silvers has nothing to do with learning the mechanics in GA boss fights? Got it.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Your entire post kind of overlooks the fact that some people (like myself) simply just don't want to impose burden on their guild to go through it again.  I can't tell you how burned out I am on this whole attunement thing being the tank in my old guild.  Raids need 2 (3 max) tanks, but we need 4 "tank" spots minimum for attunement....
 
And that doesn't even take into consideration that we were often running dungeons with only 1-2 people needing that part of the attunement which even further increased the number of times we needed to do it.
----
			
@Scerick, I believed there is no point to argue with Argeas. He's been dragging this with his nonsense far too long while not listening to what people said. It's been round and round thus i gave up dealing with this whiteknight.
 
Devs are on the right track. May be some of the whiteknight still at loss but the Devs are all i care about not some whiteknights.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
No dice.  They folded last month.
----
			
Eventually, unless the coming fixes cause a huge population boom, I predict Carbine will also do "Welfare Gear" so that new players can reasonably catch up to older players since forming new full Raid Guilds and progressing from there won't really be an option. Hopefully that is the furthest that Carbine ever goes to "Cater to Casuals". Again, that's only if the coming changes to PvE and PvP don't bring the population up.
 
In Vanilla WoW's Late Game Raiders didn't want to do old Raids to catch new members up to speed but they also couldn't afford to bring ungeared players to very intense Raids like Naxx. It created a bizarre scenario where very little of the total population had seen past Molten Core and Onyxia. Blizzard tried various methods of getting players Molten Core Equivalent Gear, but by then BWL was the standard level for Raiding and no one wanted to go back to it. I sure as hell didn't want to go back after we had finished up with BWL and were moving on to deadlier pastures.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Argeas, attunement never serves a purpose other than to stretch content out some for the developers.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I wish Carbine would step in here and stomp this ridiculous sentiment.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
No one is asking for silver dungeons to be puggable.
 
People are asking for attunement to be puggable.
 
Attunement is not content.  Attunement is artificial gating.  The checklist, or gate if you will, asks people to go do the content.  The content hasn't been made easier.  Pugging bronze dungeons can still be very very difficult for pugs and silvers mostly impossible until player power overcomes the skill checks.
 
 
 
See above.  The only people who don't want to admit that attunement is just a checklist extending the life of content are people who are blind to reason.
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
And yes, guilds will still hit the brick wall of GA's trash with a loud "THUD!" - but what happens when the QQ starts up about how hard GA is?
They QQ'd about the attunement being hard -> attunement was nerfed.
I think it's logical to follow the same pattern later on down the road.
----
			
First the caving in to pvp whines and now this. If I wanted to play WoW, I would go play WoW. I hope Carbine doesn't continue to go down this path of listening to QQ. Carbine should design their game the way they want. Not the way people want it. Because the majority of people who whine and complain always want to turn whatever mmo they're currently playing into WoW.
 
Anyway, Silvering dungeons was never hard. Hell, I did it in greens and blues with guildies who were in similar gear when we got 50. I feel that if you can't get silver in the dungeons, you kind of deserve what you get. Just gonna have to suck it up and deal with the fact you suck. Doesn't mean you can't improve though. Who am I kidding? I'm talking to mostly humans here. I forget how stupid the mass population can be  :)	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Redoing all of SSM because you lagged or your healer has a cold and had to sneeze at the wrong time?
No. Bad. Stop arguing for it.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Or somebody's dog went under the desk and unplugged their monitor mid-fight.  Yeah, that happened recently!
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Or somebody's dog went under the desk and unplugged their monitor mid-fight.  Yeah, that happened recently!
----
			All I got out of this was: "Am r kid who r play all de timez and am hardkore! Am hate LOOZER NEWBZ!"... or something to that affect.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
My pool caught on fire once. Had to go afk mid fight.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Argeas, attunement never serves a purpose other than to stretch content out some for the developers.  Leveling didn't teach you about adventures, adventures didn't get you ready for dungeons, and dungeons wont get you ready for raiding.  If you didn't learn to get out of the red by level 30 or so then you can be taught.  If you didn't learn to interrupt cast by 50 then you wont be taught.  Mastering one aspect of the game does not mean the other aspects will be easier.  I am sure raiding will be just as much of a learning experience and dungeons were as adventures were before that.  As I said attunement means nothing to me either way, it never did, if I didn't like the game I wouldn't play, I do like it so I am going to do what I need to do to raid, if they removed attunement tomorrow I would be just as happy.  More people need to quit nitpicking one or two things and if they like the game stay with it, if not move on to something else.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
your POOL caught on FIRE? how?!
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
your POOL caught on FIRE? how?!
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Let me break this up for you. Its dire news my friend.
 
Lets go basic mode here.
 
For this expensive, large budget, high maintance cost AAA theme park game called Wildtstar to keep rolling end game content, it needs $$$$.
 
Can hardcore players alone afford anywhere near what this games needs to keep rolling? no.
 
This is not sandbox, this is not a moba, this is a high profile themepark mmo... meaning its expensive.
 
If the casuals dont play.... there is no game. So, eventually, if they need to nerf, change, add content as meanings to keep the casuals in the game, they will do so, even nerfing raids... there is no "but" here my friend.. .this is reallity.
 
You want your content not being changed by casuals demands? theres 2 options:
 
1- Find that low budget, low maintance cost mmo, where the hardcore alone are enough to keep the game proffitable.
2- Hope the devs actually make content to satisfy the crowd that really pays the bills, so they dont have to touch your precious 40m raids.
 
Wildstar?? Well, if the game somehow manage to revert the mass exodus of people leaving the game (which i doubt), they will eventually add 10-15m raids, or nerf current raid setups or create easier versions.... doesnt matter, what really really matters is that Wildstar will only keep rolling new content as long as the casual mass keeps paying the subscription. The moment casuals leave the game, is the moment you can kiss your hardcore content wheel goodbye.
 
I really dont understand how hard is to grasp this concept.... hardcore players should be begging carbine to give relevant content for casuals, so they can maintain their little piece of heaven.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
They won't because it's 100% factual.
 
 
 
 
I've been harping about removing it all-together for awhile now.  If you look back at my previous posts in teen pages, maybe 13 or 14, I brought up that this kills motivation to play alts and take alts through the raid content as well.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
And I agree, raiding will teach you how to raid. It always has. The attunement process is in no way connected to the requirements for raiding, and if making the attunement process puggable, and that is really what this is, that alone just seems like it's an added and unncessary time synch. Just make it so you have to get 32 K rep to buy your key or something. The whole process becomes incredibly illusory once its understood that attunement is just being asked to be made puggable. But why even ask that? It should just be removed. Let players raid. Get your 32 K rep for faction and then you can get your key or some other standard, if even. There is no need for the illusion. As you stated, and I agree, you will learn how to raid, while raiding. The attunement teaches you nothing about end game, and with the bronze change it just moves further away from that intent to make puggable content that actually serves no rational relationship to raiding itself. That's where I'm coming from.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Far from. The issue, the real issue, is the content is being asked to be puggable, again no one said it was hard no one said they could not do it, the real underliner is "I can't pug this".  If the content is being asked to be puggable then the question is "why is the content even here?" THAT IS EXTREMELY RELEVANT TO THE CONVERSATION.
----
			I don't see why they made the change. My guild has so many attuned that we will start running 2 raids. People just need to get good. My guild is on Thunderfoot, one of the lowest pop servers and last to down x89 so you people have no room to complain.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
First the caving in to pvp whines and now this. If I wanted to play WoW, I would go play WoW. I hope Carbine doesn't continue to go down this path of listening to QQ. Carbine should design their game the way they want. Not the way people want it. Because the majority of people who whine and complain always want to turn whatever mmo they're currently playing into WoW.
 
Anyway, Silvering dungeons was never hard. Hell, I did it in greens and blues with guildies who were in similar gear when we got 50. I feel that if you can't get silver in the dungeons, you kind of deserve what you get. Just gonna have to suck it up and deal with the fact you suck. Doesn't mean you can't improve though. Who am I kidding? I'm talking to mostly humans here. I forget how stupid the mass population can be  :)
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Bit off topic but, Timetravel, did you create the Roehn Theer raid encounter in EQ2? If so, Wildstar raiding is in good hands. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I don't see why they made the change. My guild has so many attuned that we will start running 2 raids. People just need to get good. My guild is on Thunderfoot, one of the lowest pop servers and last to down x89 so you people have no room to complain.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I don't see why they made the change. My guild has so many attuned that we will start running 2 raids. People just need to get good. My guild is on Thunderfoot, one of the lowest pop servers and last to down x89 so you people have no room to complain.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The only thing that silvering dungeons proved was that you were able to get pretty good at completing dungeons.
 
Zero correlation to your ability to do well in raids, especially due to the differing skills required.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Because you learn things even in pugs when you're just starting out? Because while pugs do often include cupcakes, they also often include helpful and friendly people willing to teach tactics and improve the community?
 
They're for people who are more interested in playing the game than they are in winning the uberloot. Or for people who are new to the game and simply don't know what team play involves or how to go about finding a guild. Or for people who are online when others in their guild aren't, who still want to play the team content.
 
The fact that you see nothing of value in puggable content doesn't make puggable content useless. It's part of a process that integrates people new to MMOs into team-oriented play. Which is why it makes perfect sense to make puggable content part of attunement.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Have the original concept art for him on my desk still =)
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I don't see why they made the change. My guild has so many attuned that we will start running 2 raids. People just need to get good. My guild is on Thunderfoot, one of the lowest pop servers and last to down x89 so you people have no room to complain.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Have the original concept art for him on my desk still =)
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
My pool caught on fire once. Had to go afk mid fight.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Is there a better way to train for raids than dungeons that I'm not aware of?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yes, practicing the raid fights.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
And for the people who can't find 4 others, let alone 19?
----
			
I was in beta, headstart and launch. Unsubbed after first month, as I saw that raiding will simply not happen as too few people were getting attuned.
 
Resubbed today to level a new character to get into raiding.
 
I dont think I will be the only one to resub.
 
I believe this will reignite the game that got stale as too many people were stuck in their progress.
 
Hazak here I come,
 
DrA	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
And for the people who can't find 4 others, let alone 19?
----
			I'm not really sure this is a good or bad change to be honest. I just recently finished my silver dungeon part of attunement, and while it was tough it only took me and my guild about 3 weeks to nail them all down for our core group. It definitely increased our ability to work together as a team and I feel much more confident with this group in a raid than I would anyone else. None the less I do understand that some others really struggle with timers due to life issues, so I suppose that maybe this is for the best even if I don't really like it so much because more people raiding is probably a good thing.	
----
			
By the way, to the "oh my god it's all 2hardcore4scrubs, we have to protect them" crowd:Just today I saw people advertising for pug bodies to raid GA. 
I was perplexed by this as I only recently rolled on the server and thus wasn't aware this was a thing. And having read some many forum posts on hardcore and bads/scrubs, how could this be possible?! So I asked how the hell such madness could be attempted.
Reply:"4 of the bosses can be done with a few pugs, no problem".	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I was in beta, headstart and launch. Unsubbed after first month, as I saw that raiding will simply not happen as too few people were getting attuned.
 
Resubbed today to level a new character to get into raiding.
 
I dont think I will be the only one to resub.
 
I believe this will reignite the game that got stale as too many people were stuck in their progress.
 
Hazak here I come,
 
DrA
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
By the way, to the "oh my god it's all 2hardcore4scrubs, we have to protect them" crowd:
 
Just today I saw people advertising for pug bodies to raid GA. 
I was perplexed by this as I only recently rolled on the server and thus wasn't aware this was a thing. And having read some many forum posts on hardcore and bads/scrubs, how could this be possible?! So I asked how the hell such madness could be attempted.
Reply:
 
"4 of the bosses can be done with a few pugs, no problem".
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I don't see why they made the change. My guild has so many attuned that we will start running 2 raids. People just need to get good. My guild is on Thunderfoot, one of the lowest pop servers and last to down x89 so you people have no room to complain.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
By the way, to the "oh my god it's all 2hardcore4scrubs, we have to protect them" crowd:
 
Just today I saw people advertising for pug bodies to raid GA. 
I was perplexed by this as I only recently rolled on the server and thus wasn't aware this was a thing. And having read some many forum posts on hardcore and bads/scrubs, how could this be possible?! So I asked how the hell such madness could be attempted.
Reply:
 
"4 of the bosses can be done with a few pugs, no problem".
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
PUGs from the Silver era... not the Bronze era.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
How much experience do you have in GA?
X-89 can be 16 manned, as was proved by Enigma.
 
I'd much rather 16 man a boss, than PUG members - a pug can wipe the entire raid, whereas being short-handed only makes the fight take longer.
And if you think that's not true, you have absolutely 0 experience in Wildstar's raiding environment.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Pugs who bought a boost, sure mate.  :rolleyes:
 
 
 
 
None, which was my point. All I got is forum posts complaining this will open the scrub-floodgates to disaster.
When it's demonstrably true there are guilds who have such an easy time they will take random people. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
For the guilds that have everything on farm, don't need any of the drops, and can kill things with a tolerance of a few deaths, do you know what bringing a few pugs along does?
 
Let's some gear not go to waste.
Potentially recruit new players.
 
Both of these are good things, and honestly, all of the mini bosses in GA are easier (so far) than any of the bosses in dungeons. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Ignore the "scrub-floodgates" arguments - they don't represent what the majority of us are trying to state in this thread.
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I'd argue that Genetic Monstrosity is pretty difficult for first-timers, but yes - for the most part the minibosses are a joke.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I was in beta, headstart and launch. Unsubbed after first month, as I saw that raiding will simply not happen as too few people were getting attuned.
 
Resubbed today to level a new character to get into raiding.
 
I dont think I will be the only one to resub.
 
I believe this will reignite the game that got stale as too many people were stuck in their progress.
 
Hazak here I come,
 
DrA
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
In before unsub after 200+ wipes on first GA boss :)
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
In before unsub after 200+ wipes on first GA boss :)
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Maybe a better approach to take from the start would have been: 
"Bravo Carbine!  Just don't let this turn into nerfing the "actual content" of the game and we'll all be happy!"
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Hyperbolic posts don't really do much to further the discussion, now do they?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Well, I'm not congratulating Carbine on the nerf of the attunement - I am happy that players are coming back, not at how it had to be done.
I think there were other means of keeping players happy with the game, fixing the attunement, and still garnering more subs - but they went with nerfing the silver requirement for the attunement, and that's that.
----
			
I can teach a couple geared pugs a fight on TS if they've seen the vids; if they perform well I might even get a new recruit out of it.
Whoever said running short-handed is preferable to grabbing a couple pugs is either not a GL/RL or not a smart GL/RL.
 
Honestly, clearing raids is supposed to be elite in this game. It can be elite for 1 of 2 reasons.
It can be elite because 1)the level of skill and teamwork required to down bosses is set very high or 2)because the grind to attune is so tedious only a few complete it.
 
My team prefers to stroke their epeen because they have 'skillz' whereas some people prefer to take pride in overcoming the grind.
This change dilutes the sense of eliteness by overcoming the grind, no doubt about it, and potentially affords the opportunity for skilled players to feel 'elite.'
 
Increased access is fuel for competitive players: my team welcomes a challenge and the competition - some teams feel threatened or afraid and react accordingly.	
----
			Capped?	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
Now that I'm in the raid, honestly, I think GA could actually do with a difficulty increase. For one thing, the fact that I basically don't need my interrupts, after being trained throughout all of my silver attempts that interrupts and MoOs reign supreme, just strikes me as kind of silly. You need some interrupts on some trash, but X-89 and Kuralak basically need either zero or one per person. 
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Increased access is fuel for competitive players: my team welcomes a challenge and the competition - some teams feel threatened or afraid and react accordingly.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yes, practicing the raid fights.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Whoever said running short-handed is preferable to grabbing a couple pugs is either not a GL/RL or not a smart GL/RL.
I can teach a couple geared pugs a fight on TS if they've seen the vids; if they perform well I might even get a new recruit out of it.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You can also have your "all-star pugs" wipe the raid from any number of mechanics, simply because they don't know the fights.
Watching a video != fighting a boss.
 
You're oversimplifying a complex idea by stating "Well, if they'd rather be short-handed than PUG, they're a bad GM/Raid Lead."
That's simply not true.
----
			If only they decided to change attunement based on something else than Most people are stucked on silver dungeon part and its too hard for them it would be cool .. something like its big of a grind but nope .. This indicates that there will be further nerfs and I believe GA is the first. No matter what devs now said, they will nerf raid in 2-3 months. I am starting to lose hope for any new game and their phillosophy before launch. 	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
That will change on the 2nd floor ;)
 
(but your point still stands)
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It doesn't have anything to do with that. It's a simple matter of change in philosophy away from skill to accessibility. It's a harbinger to a different WildStar to come.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You can also have your "all-star pugs" wipe the raid from any number of mechanics, simply because they don't know the fights.
Watching a video != fighting a boss.
 
You're oversimplifying a complex idea by stating "Well, if they'd rather be short-handed than PUG, they're a bad/unintelligent GM/Raid Lead."
That's simply not true.
 
If you can complete a fight perfectly fine while short-handed, why would you risk a PUG and potentially cause the fight to take longer?
Outside of recruitment efforts, of course.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
In my experience most guilds with lasting long term success opt to teach their new recruits rather than expecting them to fully be at the level of the rest of the guild day 1.
----
			
I have faith that they won't nerf the Raids. Not that it will matter to me too much since I won't be there (in all likely hood).
 
I do hope they are able to come up with progression for the casual so that once I master all the dungeons there's something for me to do.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
If only they decided to change attunement based on something else than Most people are stucked on silver dungeon part and its too hard for them it would be cool .. something like its big of a grind but nope .. This indicates that there will be further nerfs and I believe GA is the first. No matter what devs now said, they will nerf raid in 2-3 months. I am starting to lose hope for any new game and their phillosophy before launch. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
A more populous and welcoming WildStar I hope. I get so jealous  when I look at: http://xivsoul.com/ :(
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
She's saying that if you would rather not spread good will towards your guild, and potentially pick up a new recruit, at basically zero risk to your own guild, you are a short sided Guild Leader.
 
I would agree.
----