124303-want-more-players-lfrduty-finder-page-5

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As you stated there are games doing it they way you want, but you're not there. I've see no reason both couldn't be implemented or that every game should have to conform to what you want. Some of us like the Vertical Progression, you don't some others don't, but some of us do enjoy striving for that gear and having a blast with guildies doing it.
 
I don't get burnt out on games because I'm not running a race I do what I find fun at any given time and can commit to. If I'm still working on GA 2 years from now it won't matter to me, if I'm still having fun with folks I play with and still have things I can work towards as I have time.
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I don't get burnt out on games because I'm not running a race I do what I find fun at any given time and can commit to. If I'm still working on GA 2 years from now it won't matter to me, if I'm still having fun with folks I play with and still have things I can work towards as I have time.
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Except that all of the vertical progression defenders forget (or choose to avoid) -- endless item/stat inflation and power creep, one can work on some 100man raid for months (years) and then it's the next expansion time with junk drops having better stats than top tier raid before, been on that hamsterwheel and never again.
 
Going horizontal do not mean easier or less challenging content, on the contrary, it will add to it as no one will be able to just overgear and faceroll anything (assuming that they'll add level syncing too). Also it will keep older content and zones active as players will find them still challenging and fun to do even at cap.
 
I never ran (or skipped) any instance/dungeon/raid/whatever purely because of items/stats (except a few for some skins I wanted), I did them because I found them fun and in the vertical games hated when I was too high level to do them. I preffer that only way for the content to "become easier" is because I got better at playing the game not because RNG gods gave me few bigger numbers than before.
 
And why gear stats should be the main driving force behind doing anything (except if one wants to faceroll content being overgeared)? Skins, titles, mounts, decor, toys, pets, ... there are a ton of other "carrots" to dangle in front of the players than just yet another boring set of numbers.
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If it is better than Vet Dungeon gear it would become required to raid, not by the game, by the player base.
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I think you might be mistaking something.  In vertical progression, if item stats are used as your gate against content, the point is that you can't faceroll current content until you've done content afterwards.
 
I think this might require some clarification.  Vertical progression is tiered progression, it's a stepping-stone system.  Horizontal progression is essentially sideways, in that there's nothing built up from there, it exists at your level.  Wildstar's, as many MMORPGs are, doesn't use one or the other per se, especially at endgame.  The current endgame item progression looks like this:
 
All veteran Shiphands
All veteran Adventures
The three tier 1 Veteran Dungeons
The two tier 2 Veteran Dungeons
GA
DS
 
It's essentially a pyramid.
 
Now take into consideration that some PVP gear (notably the weapons) are now perfectly viable pre-raid gear.  Not optimal, but certainly acceptable.  Contracts are upcoming and will, over time, award pre-raid gear.  Almost all the daily quest reputations you can grind up offer gear pieces or more important things like AMP and Ability points.  Many of these things are also available from Elder Gem vendors.  That gear can come from drops in the instances themselves, or can be run through randoms by grinding up currency (renown or Glory).
 
So there's a wide array of things to do sideways, and they're adding more, right up to GA.  Eventually, there will be a GA-equivalent set of dungeons as the tiers rise.  Eventually, GA will be outgunned by even people in some tier of shiphand gear.  That's power creep.
 
Vertical progression is a lot more pronounced in a game like WoW, where you have a great number of tiers of difficulty for the same content, so many that people say you can simply jump them with enough ability.  Wildstar has a somewhat shorter progression tower, as it's defined by attunement and not sheer item level.  Sufficiently skilled players can walk straight into veteran dungeons if they feel so inclined with minimal work.
 
Horizontal progression is any time you're on one tier and you have multiple types of content at your disposal.  There are games that are entirely horizontal in progression, most notably "linear" games, but they're rare in MMORPGs.  RPGs themselves are defined by character progression.  There are a few.  The tendencies are twofold:
 
-The pyramid is flattened, but more time is thus spent at each tier.  It could literally be everything on one level, then a raid, but the time spent is then the same.  The issue here is that you don't have a wide breadth of content styles to choose from, just a lot at your tier.
 
-The pyramid is gone in content, but reallocated in statistics.  This is EVE Online's model, for example.  There's a TON of horizontal progression in EVE.  Many times you don't have to finish tiers of what you're on to move sideways and improve other skills or even completely changing skillsets.  However, this isn't often used in content-heavy games because it's hard to get people to balance that way.  In a progression-heavy PVE game, people tend to drift into a few heavily researched yet specific builds and specs.
 
Wildstar doesn't tend to go wide, but then again they don't really tend to go long, either.  In any case, progression, horizontal or vertical, is just a way to attract your attention and get you to do something.  They're all time sinks by definition.  MMORPGs tend to stack vertically because it's a lot easier to introduce players, slowly, to skills they'll need to succeed in harder content.  That's harder to do laterally, either the ceiling has to come down or the bar has to be high.  Easier to stage the stakes up at a more regular pace.  The item level, at that point, is simply a regulated limiter to keep people near their grade level, not a way to make it easy to faceroll a dungeon.  Ask someone in DS gear whose healer or tank dies a few times to Mordechai how easy Vet SC becomes.  Most of the time, they don't need their gear or the content they're running it for.
 
Obviously, if they're backtracking for anything, that's not a vertical element we're talking about anymore.  In vertical progression, you don't have to go backwards, they just tack on another tier.  So far, Carbine hasn't developed anything beyond DS, they've only inserted horizontal elements, unless you count veteran shiphands as a tier of content.
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the idea of a "pyramid" is the problem.
at least according to me.
 
sure, they are currently making their pyramid less linear (basically widening it), but if it could be a sphere it would be better.
at least that would be my idea of how to design an mmo.
a sphere.
 
i'll think about it if i ever change career path.
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the idea of a "pyramid" is the problem.
at least according to me.
 
sure, they are currently making their pyramid less linear (basically widening it), but if it could be a sphere it would be better.
at least that would be my idea of how to design an mmo.
a sphere.
 
i'll think about it if i ever change career path.
 
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Like a lot of ideas, it sounds great in principle, but doesn't work well in practice.  Theory is where a lot of great ideas live.  Execution is a PITA.  A perfectly horizontal "progression" wouldn't have any progression whatsoever.  You could walk into DS as a level 1 and walk straight to Avatus.  There'd be nothing gating you and no gear-related reasons you wouldn't.
 
Everything else is going to be vertical in some way or another.
 
A "sphere" would essentially mean that every single progression outward was its own thing.  So if you want to PVE solo, that's one thing, but its progression means absolutely NOTHING in raiding.  It also means you could immediately start raiding.  And betwixt nothing would meet, every aspect of the game with a vertical progression would essentially start you at level 1 with starter gear.  Sounds like it would work in theory, but in practice that essentially ends the cross-pollination that keeps raiders in dungeon queues, PVPers fighting world bosses, and solo players moving into attunement.  Without a pyramid structure of some kind layering progression, you get a much more fragmented game.
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Seeing the trees and missing the forest, Vic.
 
A sphere can have increasingly difficult shells. What he's describing is that at endgame you can enter solo, small group, team, raid-group, or zonewide content that is all scaled to approximately similar challenge and reward, not that Avatus and Fragment Zero hand out the same rewards. It is always possible to incorporate additional shells around the sphere that become increasingly difficult and rewarding in parallel.
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Like a lot of ideas, it sounds great in principle, but doesn't work well in practice.  Theory is where a lot of great ideas live.  Execution is a PITA.  A perfectly horizontal "progression" wouldn't have any progression whatsoever.  You could walk into DS as a level 1 and walk straight to Avatus.  There'd be nothing gating you and no gear-related reasons you wouldn't.
 
Everything else is going to be vertical in some way or another.
 
A "sphere" would essentially mean that every single progression outward was its own thing.  So if you want to PVE solo, that's one thing, but its progression means absolutely NOTHING in raiding.  It also means you could immediately start raiding.  And betwixt nothing would meet, every aspect of the game with a vertical progression would essentially start you at level 1 with starter gear.  Sounds like it would work in theory, but in practice that essentially ends the cross-pollination that keeps raiders in dungeon queues, PVPers fighting world bosses, and solo players moving into attunement.  Without a pyramid structure of some kind layering progression, you get a much more fragmented game.
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I didn't say the "sphere" didn't, it still includes vertical progression.  What I said was....
 
 
 
This is very different from rewards.  It means all progression is handled outward from one point in all its content styles.  That means raiding, solo PVE, PVP, they all stand as their own, single, solitary progressions.
 
If you have multiple horizontal paths for progression which lead on towards a singular, narrowing endgame, that's a pyramid.  You start at the bottom and work up, and your progress in one can cross into another because everything is organized in singular tiers.  He specifically said he wanted to avoid a pyramidal organization.
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Except that all of the vertical progression defenders forget (or choose to avoid) -- endless item/stat inflation and power creep, one can work on some 100man raid for months (years) and then it's the next expansion time with junk drops having better stats than top tier raid before, been on that hamsterwheel and never again.
 
Going horizontal do not mean easier or less challenging content, on the contrary, it will add to it as no one will be able to just overgear and faceroll anything (assuming that they'll add level syncing too). Also it will keep older content and zones active as players will find them still challenging and fun to do even at cap.
 
I never ran (or skipped) any instance/dungeon/raid/whatever purely because of items/stats (except a few for some skins I wanted), I did them because I found them fun and in the vertical games hated when I was too high level to do them. I preffer that only way for the content to "become easier" is because I got better at playing the game not because RNG gods gave me few bigger numbers than before.
 
And why gear stats should be the main driving force behind doing anything (except if one wants to faceroll content being overgeared)? Skins, titles, mounts, decor, toys, pets, ... there are a ton of other "carrots" to dangle in front of the players than just yet another boring set of numbers.
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the step you missed in between theory and execution is "game design".
 
there are many way to gate the entry to avatus.
i mean, some of them are already there in wildstar (need the attunement).
but it could be worked in a much better way.
 
basically, you don't need "stats" to create barriers of entry.
there are ways to do progression without involving "+1 strength".
maybe you need a special protective armor against radiation, maybe you need to unlock skills, maybe you need to do a chain quest.  This is done.  It is called attunement.
 
also, by having all your world (sphere) as available content to replay, you can more easily put in incentive to do everything.
maybe some kind of crafting metal is only found in sanctuary of the sword maiden ?  This happens already.  You can't enter raiding without doing the dungeons once through.  You can't create Archivos weapons without materials from raiding.  You cannot enter DS without returning to get more patterns from previous content.
maybe each instances have their own unique set of skins to farm ? (like gw2)  This is in Wildstar already.  There are a great many individual pieces of decor, costume, dyes, amps, ability points, etc. that can only be gained from certain sources.
maybe only whitewale spawns the yetis that drop the materials to make the best medishots?  This was done often in WoW, and was not lauded for making you "wander all over the world to get mats you need for raiding".
 
the idea would be to have your whole world and every instances relevant at every step of the game and be able to weave a story into it.  
 
you can still have harder content. you can still have some vertical progression at different steps.
but as a whole, the game wouldn't be on rail to the top of the pyramid without no reason at all to go farm copper mines (or any other "low level mats").
 
make everything relevant instead of making "tiers" of things i.e.: bad metal, ok metal, good metal, super good metal. (that is wrong in my book).
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Horizontal progression in every game that I've tried does feel less challenging and I generally could care less about the cosmetics in games - there was nothing on that list that I actively collected at all in any game I've ever played. They could remove it and it wouldn't phase me in the slightest. I'm not on here lobbying for that though as I understand some folks absolutely love that stuff and it doesn't affect my enjoyment of the games where as removing it would likely affect theirs.
 
Maybe someone could do Horizontal progression well in the future, but I doubt that a game already designed is going to redesign around it after it's released. So Horizontal progression could be added on top of the vertical progression so that you could do one or the other or both I guess.
 
I don't want to faceroll any content period. The point that it becomes faceroll I stop playing it completely.
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That wasn't a step I missed.  Game design is theory and execution.
 
There have been a lot of games that tried theories that simply didn't work.  Hence the sphere.  I just described an execution that would look that way.
 
What you then described were alternate means to create the same pyramid.  People have done that as well.  I've added the portions in red.
 
The rest don't work for some very simple reasons.  Having any instance anywhere be perfectly acceptable for content at any time doesn't happen because when it's been tried everyone just farms the same thing (ask people in PVP how sick they get of the same damn BG).  When they don't because you require certain instances run again anyway, you're right back to vertical and linear progression again.
 
EVE Online has done a system where there is very little vertical progression.  It is a miasma, you can fly your starter ship into a corp and immediately start working in nullsec.  You can skill up things that have nothing to do with gear or stats.  If you want, you can excel in small ships or simply earn enough points to jump tier to a larger ship.  Nothing is ever outmoded because cost and size play varying roles, so a person flying a T-1 assault frigate are still just as useful anywhere in a group.
 
So it's been done, it just wouldn't work in Wildstar.  People in casual PVE-oriented games don't usually like the highly complex tradeoff skill systems, non-directional storylines, skill-and-planning based gameplay.  They want to look up a guide, find out what the best build is, what the BiS is, and go do it.  Wildstar even tried a hint of that by having AMP and Ability points located elsewhere, in other places (exactly like what you mean).  People hated it, they said it was a reason to never alt and it made them angry they even had to do it the first time.
 
So in practice, this stuff's not as flowery as you think it is.
 
 
You're misdiagnosing your issue, I think.  Your issue appears to be with the incentive system, not the tiering system.  You are in a genre defined by character progression.  That character progression happens almost entirely through gear stats in almost every MMORPG for a very specific reason... and that reason has popped up in this very thread.  Rewards.  People don't want cosmetics, they want rewards and rewards are better statistical gear.
 
You can squirrel around it, but stats are just the currency of progression.  Guild Wars 2 has attributes, Wildstar has main stats, every game has them and use them to gate.  Are there ways I can see actually designing around it?  Sure.  You could include whole skills that you'd need, say including meters for thirst, hunger, heat, and forcing people to learn and make use of survival skills.  You could gate content that way, by introducing a hard cap on what environments you can survive in.  You could straight up level-gate everything (you have to be famous enough for people to let you in, the old-school approach to game tiering).  You could make content so mind-meltingly hard that you have no choice but to do it.  Or you could do old-school linear progression (level 1, level 2, level 3).  All of these could work and to various extents have been tried.
 
However, stats are a vertical limiter, but are also the horizontal enabler.  Stats are why you can use PVE gear in PVP instead of starting from level 1.  They're why you can put gear on Beloved in the Defile and have that be worthwhile instead of just rolling through the vet shiphands to vet dungeons and beyond.  Stats are why you have a pyramid, not a series of towers.
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the defile ? whats that ? haven't been in that hell hole since i maxed rep. i don't clearly remember.
i basically log in, go into DS, and log out.
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I don't know about that, we bring people into our raid off a minimum dps on the dummy that is easily attainable with base crafted gear or even pvp gear (I think we just look for 4.5k on the dummy) . Not to mentions any gear from LFR would be replaced by purples that drop from every boss in GA.
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but as a whole, the game wouldn't be on rail to the top of the pyramid without no reason at all to go farm copper mines (or any other "low level mats").
 
make everything relevant instead of making "tiers" of things i.e.: bad metal at level 1, ok metal at level 10, good metal at level 25, super good metal at 50. (that is wrong in my book).
all metals should be kind of equally useful depending on what you need to do.
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Except they don't, which is why most modern mmos other than WildStar are or have implemented it.
 
We've had this discussion a ton of times; obviously there's always going to be the special snowflakes and entitled players who believe that only they should be able to do raids. That type of player is not the kind of player that can sustain an mmo though. Anyway WS has bigger problems at the moment like the inability to do dungeons/pvp before 50.
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is the reason for it not being faceroll is because of the GEAR ?
 
i don't know where you are in your current progression, but is the reason why you cannot beat the content a lack of GEAR ?
 
probably not.
assuredly not.
 
wildstar can do challenging content without the need to require GEAR to beat it.
that is the beauty of wildstar gameplay design and well thought encounters from the dungeon/raid team.
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 I'll take you at face value since I have no reason to believe that you would lie about what you could live with.Implement the LFR with cosmetic stuff then, beg TT to put it in that way and I'd try and help you get it if they commit to never adding gear progression to it.Problem is, I give it 1 hour in live game before there is a post on here from people wanting better gear rewards for doing it and after it was suggested the first time in this thread like the very next post was someone saying they wanted gear progression too.
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I'm ok with LFR giving Vet Shiphands/Adventures level loot, that is one/two levels down from anything that would make it required for new players to enter actual raids. In fact, rewards that are Vet Dungeon Level would be fine if they up the difficulty beyond the WoW level LFR and make it at least somewhat challenging or engaging.
 
The only thing I'm 100% against would be at a level between Vet Dungeons and Entry Level Raid gear and that has been pretty consistent in what I'e been saying this whole thread.
 
Someone wanting to do the actual raid and not repeat it on ez and regular should not be forced to do so.
 
I honestly believe it would be more satisfying for folks to have the broken out chunks of regular raid to have smaller time frames for and still see the fight they way they were designed, but I could live with just rewards below Vet Dungeons if they have to simplify it as well.
 
Not so hard to get me to agree with you. I'm not opposed to solo players having things to do, I just don't want their something to do to add levels to something that already has plenty of them that are required by the game.	
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I'm ok with LFR giving Vet Shiphands/Adventures level loot, that is one/two levels down from anything that would make it required for new players to enter actual raids. In fact, rewards that are Vet Dungeon Level would be fine if they up the difficulty beyond the WoW level LFR and make it at least somewhat challenging or engaging.
 
The only thing I'm 100% against would be at a level between Vet Dungeons and Entry Level Raid gear and that has been pretty consistent in what I'e been saying this whole thread.
 
Someone wanting to do the actual raid and not repeat it on ez and regular should not be forced to do so.
 
I honestly believe it would be more satisfying for folks to have the broken out chunks of regular raid to have smaller time frames for and still see the fight they way they were designed, but I could live with just rewards below Vet Dungeons if they have to simplify it as well.
 
Not so hard to get me to agree with you. I'm not opposed to solo players having things to do, I just don't want their something to do to add levels to something that already has plenty of them that are required by the game.
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Yasfan, the conversation about x-89 was mostly between you and I, and I am not a hardcore raider, so stop saying that I am.
 
If you are talking about mechanics that can be one shot with no organization prior to zoning in, which is what the impression I've gotten from LFR folks is, then no, it should not give veteran dungeon loot, because those are more difficult than that. It's also important that the gear not be good enough that it encourages people to run both LFR and normal mode raids.
 
Regarding what has been established about x-89 and bombs is that you don't know what you are talking about, you haven't experienced it (I presume from the way to you talk about it), and rather than trust those of us who have you'd rather deal with the fight in your head that is nothing like it is in game.
 
The one shot LFR version of x-89 is a big frog that sits in the middle of the raid, drops no bombs, still does the push back and spew, and has a lot less health.
 
There you go. An easier boss than thunderfoot, not particularly interesting or fun, but the kind of fight the LFR folks are looking for. It in no way represents seeing the content the developers spent time and effort on, but it's something to do with 19 random strangers.
 
As long as It rewards SSM normal level loot or lower, no problem from me. But boy would it suck. Wouldn't be my problem, except that I'd rather see the developers working on content that is actually good and fun, like veteran shiphands are.	
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I'm ok with LFR giving Vet Shiphands/Adventures level loot, that is one/two levels down from anything that would make it required for new players to enter actual raids. In fact, rewards that are Vet Dungeon Level would be fine if they up the difficulty beyond the WoW level LFR and make it at least somewhat challenging or engaging.
 
The only thing I'm 100% against would be at a level between Vet Dungeons and Entry Level Raid gear and that has been pretty consistent in what I'e been saying this whole thread.
 
Someone wanting to do the actual raid and not repeat it on ez and regular should not be forced to do so.
 
I honestly believe it would be more satisfying for folks to have the broken out chunks of regular raid to have smaller time frames for and still see the fight they way they were designed, but I could live with just rewards below Vet Dungeons if they have to simplify it as well.
 
Not so hard to get me to agree with you. I'm not opposed to solo players having things to do, I just don't want their something to do to add levels to something that already has plenty of them that are required by the game.
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Only way LFR could ever work in Wildstar is design it for the players it's aimed at
 
Remove all interrupt armour from bosses and mobs
cut all red damage by 90%
reduce boss damage by 50%
reduce boss HP by 50%
wing each LFR into equal parts
have the same pets and toys drop from both main raid and LFR
new achievement title “ almost a hero “
don't reward silly gear, the type of casual player doing LFR does not need vet dungeon items, but adding cosmetic skins would be nice
give a good gem reward for completion
99% of casual players will never main raid, LFR is about giving them content! If Carbine can do all of the above without it effecting the rest of the game then please proceed, if not? Then don't waste any resources or time on it.	
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Yasfan, the conversation about x-89 was mostly between you and I, and I am not a hardcore raider, so stop saying that I am.
 
If you are talking about mechanics that can be one shot with no organization prior to zoning in, which is what the impression I've gotten from LFR folks is, then no, it should not give veteran dungeon loot, because those are more difficult than that. It's also important that the gear not be good enough that it encourages people to run both LFR and normal mode raids.
 
Regarding what has been established about x-89 and bombs is that you don't know what you are talking about, you haven't experienced it (I presume from the way to you talk about it), and rather than trust those of us who have you'd rather deal with the fight in your head that is nothing like it is in game.
 
The one shot LFR version of x-89 is a big frog that sits in the middle of the raid, drops no bombs, still does the push back and spew, and has a lot less health.
 
There you go. An easier boss than thunderfoot, not particularly interesting or fun, but the kind of fight the LFR folks are looking for. It in no way represents seeing the content the developers spent time and effort on, but it's something to do with 19 random strangers.
 
As long as It rewards SSM normal level loot or lower, no problem from me. But boy would it suck. Wouldn't be my problem, except that I'd rather see the developers working on content that is actually good and fun, like veteran shiphands are.
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If I'm misunderstanding what LFR is looking for, then I'm open to correction. For those looking for an easier version of GA, I understand the requirement to be that it is puggable, without voice or add ons, by a group of 20 strangers, and clearable in a sitting. That requires each boss to be one shottable (or maybe two or three shots here or there, but three shotting every boss would probably make the thing take longer than most people have time for in something thrown together at random).
 
Yes, I know you have asked that he instance be broken up into chunks to allow for multiple tries on bosses, but I haven't seen others asking for this, and quite frankly we don't know how difficult that would be for them to develop. Being that boss lockouts are already something the devs have said are a technical challenge, implementing a LFR version that breaks GA into chunks is probably not trivial. Again, spend development time on that, or something new?
 
So that is my understanding of what the LFR proponents want: a version of GA that is clearable with one or two shotting every boss without voice comms or add ons in a single sitting.
 
Regarding X-89 and changing mechanics, I'm not throwing around raider "cred". I'm saying experience >>>>>>> understanding mechanics when discussing what the essence of a fight is. I'm confident if you were to experience x-89 then if you were objective you'd see how any kind of easier variant of the bomb mechanic would lose what makes it fun and interesting. It's not really a difficult fight compared to others in the game, but it IS quite different and fun, even to repeat, because of how everything is tuned.	
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			Just to put this into perspective, what you are talking about retuning for a quick pugable raid is 6 bosses, 10 mini bosses (I think that's how many there are), three room events, and a ton of trash. Even the trash would have to have new/different mechanics. You assume that doing all of that is easier than creating, say, three new bosses and some trash with similar art asserts in the same setting. I'm not convinced at all that the former is easier or quicker, especially if you have to break it into chunks. And if you are doing a smaller amount of content, then you can require mechanics that are more interesting because the raid can sustain a few wipe and still clear the thing in a sitting.	
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What's the point of easier raids? There are normal mode dungeons for that. And as a bonus, you only have to organize 5 people!
 
Doesn't this address the chief complaints? Toned-down difficulty? Check. No organizational requirements? Check. Complete in one sitting? Check.
 
The essence of what makes raiding fun for the people that enjoy raiding seem to be precisely the elements that LFR proponents want removed. It doesn't make any sense, because taking those away makes it not raiding.	
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			Now, I have said, I am against LFR, I think it is an abomination for games. But, as mentioned, what is wrong with say an explorer version of the raid. A group of 5-10 (scaleable) running into the raid and not killing the bosses, but seeing the mechanics and shit like that? Kind of like the way Rift did it with their raids. Cant remember the name they called it though (where you would explore a raid with maybe 2-3 people for lore reasons). Gear of course cant be higher than vet dungeons. Vet dungeons need communication, I cant do a vet dungeon without voice comms =/ Reward could be cosmetic. Maybe a simpler looking version of the current raid gear?	
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The only person to claim that what LFR proponents want is "a big frog that sits in the middle of the raid, drops no bombs, still does the pushback and spew, and has a lot less health" is you.
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Why on earth would people do LFR content that gives them worse rewards than repeatable dungeon content? (progression goes Shiphands->Adventures->Dungeons->Raids) Not to mention that all raid content is time gated as opposed to dungeons which a player can keep running until they get the gear that they want/need. I cannot see any logic in this way of thinking what so ever.
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You know where this put me?  Capped mainstat and 2900 AP supposedly "good enough" for GA.  Ignoring PvP and lucky open world drops, there are no upgrades for me until I finish the pre-reqs for purple dungeon glory gear and only minor ones at that.  So much for progression.
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Why on earth would people do LFR content that gives them worse rewards than repeatable dungeon content? (progression goes Shiphands->Adventures->Dungeons->Raids) Not to mention that all raid content is time gated as opposed to dungeons which a player can keep running until they get the gear that they want/need. I cannot see any logic in this way of thinking what so ever.
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Why on earth would people do LFR content that gives them worse rewards than repeatable dungeon content? (progression goes Shiphands->Adventures->Dungeons->Raids) Not to mention that all raid content is time gated as opposed to dungeons which a player can keep running until they get the gear that they want/need. I cannot see any logic in this way of thinking what so ever.
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I can give you a few: Tourism (watching a vid or looking at a screenshot is not the same). Preference for a larger group format.  Preference for the content.  Something to do other than the 5-man instances or open world content.
 
 
On a strict gear basis I call shenanigans.  When I was struggling with Omnicore-1 I said enough is enough and bought as much crafted gear as I could (a mix of Epochos, Adventus and a LitheTek chest piece.  No Archivos) paying attention to stats.  I then unlocked all rune slots and fully populated them.  Fluxes are too expensive so I didn't reroll any slots.  Again, paying attention to stats and working to fill out the appropriate set bonuses.
 
This is all without touching any Vet Adventures or Vet Dungeons and after the big crafting nerf.
 
You know where this put me?  Capped mainstat and 2900 AP supposedly "good enough" for GA.  Ignoring PvP and lucky open world drops, there are no upgrades for me until I finish the pre-reqs for purple dungeon glory gear and only minor ones at that.  So much for progression.
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			Yeah, crafted can get you base stats for GA, but there is still a step above it from vet dungeons that will improve your performance in GA.	
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stuff about lfr rewards
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I want to clarify that though I've said in this thread that I'd be happy with just cosmetic-type rewards from an "lfr"-style raid, that's in no way me saying it's the only way. I do agree 100% that rewards should equal the effort, but I personally don't see cosmetics as inherently "less" than gear with stats. In fact, I'm motivated more to complete content if it has awesome looking armor skins or other vanity-type objects than just stats alone. Comes from my own views on the game, with cosmetic items being such a large part of my own endgame. :P But regardless, I do agree that if it were to have gear with stats, it would be unreasonable to have them lower than veteran dungeons.
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if it were to have gear with stats, it would be unreasonable to have them lower than veteran dungeons.
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The problem with adding cosmetic rewards to lfr style raids is then the #hardcore players would run them to get the costumes/gear/whatever and then start complaining that it's content that they 'have' to do.
 
In all honesty I don't know why they don't just implement ARR's raid system and call it a day. The game has millions of players and most of the people that currently play the game seem to enjoy the system. There's content and rewards to get people logging in each week, the #hardcore players get their own content and all is well in the land.
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If they are equal to veteran dungeons in terms of rewards, then they have to have as high a chance of failure as veteran dungeons. People sometimes spend 3 hours or more working on the current 5 man dungeons even with add ons or voice comms when learning, so expect them to be at least that difficult. Also, veteran dungeons have one shot mechanics that I understood were not desirable in LFR raids.
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Yasfan already pointed out that you can get gear equal to vet dungeon gear from doing other things that are far easier than vet dungeons already.
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Who says they're not doing vet dungeons for gear? There's all of five veteran dungeons in the game. Some variety to give people a different experience in their gaming hours wouldn't hurt.
 
Always with the absolutes! My interest in a dungeon finder-tied raid-sized instance lies in getting a variety of content into the game. And it's one more thing that could offer unique armor models, which is good. The number of low level models that are repeated on high level gear in this game makes me really, really sad.	
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I maintain that lfr "versions" of GA and DS are not the way to go. I would by far prefer an instance unique to itself, similar to how FFXIV has its hardcore raid content (Coil) and its casual large group content (Crystal Tower, etc). You don't really need to worry about people burning out on multiple difficulties if you don't make multiple difficulties. Carbine's already said they don't want to do that anyway.
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Who says they're not doing vet dungeons for gear? There's all of five veteran dungeons in the game. Some variety to give people a different experience in their gaming hours wouldn't hurt.
 
Always with the absolutes! My interest in a dungeon finder-tied raid-sized instance lies in getting a variety of content into the game. And it's one more thing that could offer unique armor models, which is good. The number of low level models that are repeated on high level gear in this game makes me really, really sad.
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I'm confused. A raid is a team, no matter if the group was put together through a dungeon finder or from a guild. By definition, rewards from a lfr/Crystal Tower-style raid would be rewards for completing team-based combat objectives.
 
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Then I'm on board with you :)
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So we can't have stats on items because raiders will feel forced. We also can't have no stats on items, because raiders will feel forced.
 
I meant that in jest, you don't have to take it at face value.
 
It's just another illustration of why there shouldn't be LFR - it just doesn't fit with the type of game this is or the progression it offers.
 
What? It's exactly the same type of game with the same progression as WoW, just not as well thought out which is why people are complaining.
Also...
 
"There's content and rewards to keep people logging in each week" - that shouldn't be the goal. That should be a *result* of creating a great game experience. You can't "figure out how to get people to log in." If the game is fun, the rest should take care of itself.
 
Using that same logic, they should remove gear from all content and just make it so the reward is the journey and not the destination. If you're going to go down that route than you could just play GW2 which doesn't have endgame progression.
 
 
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The reason why I recommended cosmetic rewards over gear is that, in my experience with WoW's LFR, adding knock-offs to easy mode content was a bad thing. Reading some of the latest replies to this thread, I'd like to clarify my position and maybe have some of the folks reading understand (what I believe is) a core issue here: Ensuring that the introduction of an LFR variant adds to everyone's experience, or at least, doesn't detract from one side's. I'll try to explain this in a minute, but first...What I dislike about WoW's LFR:
 
- probably the easiest endgame group content, period; trivializes boss's 'presence', immersion, etc
- became more of a required stepping stone to actual raids for progression (not in all cases, of course)
- rewards were 'cheap' versions of the raid drops; this is good because it gave casuals transmog items, but bad because you really, really want raid drops to have uniqueness
- there were a lot of people, and the fights were easy, but no one really spoke? there was some chatter for sure but half the time it was trollish and the rest was often just relaying important info on the 'harder' bosses (read: if half the raid fails this mechanic, your group could actually wipe)
 
What I like about WoW's LFR:
 
- training (not for me personally, but I'm sure it helps a lot of folks and a more skilled community is good)
- get to see what the raid instance and bosses look like
- fast queues/easy UI
- partitioned to save time
 
 
Overall, what do these points say to me about WoW's LFR?   Casual players are going to have a better game, while raiders are going to carry the burden of LFR's design flaws (again: your bosses are cheapened, your drops are cheapened, and some guilds will insist/you will feel obliged to run the LFR content as it's released because Blizzard introduced a weak gameplay link midway in the progression chain).
 
So while I dislike LFR from one point of view (the raider, which I have been in the past but am no longer), I like it from the other (the casual who likes what it offers, which I am now). This is why I suggested the specific system I outlined earlier, which attempts to compromise by removing the burdens put on raiders. It emphasizes
 
- Cosmetic rewards to avoid the 'cheapening' of actual epics, and to remove the weak progression link (however, they could also give currency like glory to provide vertical gear progression for some players as well. Just don't dupe the raid drops raiders work hard to earn)
 
- Adding new boss designs or making the raid instance an environmental challenge, also to avoid the 'cheapening' of endgame content (actual raid bosses).
 
 
So yea, to avoid getting lumped into someone else's argument, that's what I think. Yes to WS LFR variant that makes use of rarely seen assets and provides more fun, no to WoW-style story mode LFR that puts the burden of design flaws on raiders' experience.	
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Hold up here.
 
I'm confused. Why is it that an easier raid needs to be made for LFR? If the tool is another method to get people into groups for GA and DS, great! I don't see what's stopping new people from learning existing mechanics already there...	
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Hold up here.
 
I'm confused. Why is it that an easier raid needs to be made for LFR? If the tool is another method to get people into groups for GA and DS, great! I don't see what's stopping new people from learning existing mechanics already there...
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So yea, to avoid getting lumped into someone else's argument, that's what I think. Yes to WS LFR variant that makes use of rarely seen assets and provides more fun, no to WoW-style story mode LFR that puts the burden of design flaws on raiders' experience.
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We-ll, I don't think that was the purpose of the thread. :P  The OP's post is recommending something like WoW's LFR, which for many equates to a dumbed-down weekly loot pinata. :D
 
I'd be cool if they just added a new tool for pugging the normal GA/DS raids. But I don't think that would help the game much right now, and TT's post earlier seemed like he was interested in getting feedback on what players would want from a possible-future-somedaymaybe LFR variant. :ph34r:
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I agree with the vast majority of your post but I disagree with the idea that it burdens raiders. 
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Ah I see.
 
Well ok, maybe this is in danger of derailment to some degree, but why not just had a group finder to help put together raid groups? Maybe it would gate you by not letting you queue unless you had 2750 base AP (Or 3500 for DS). 
 
My point is, the raids as they are are fun, and with maybe some minor added features (like an in-game voice chat option), we could get more people into them (and successfully defeating them). I think a lot of people tote the raids as some kind of insurmountable obstacle that's wildly impossible because of the #hardcore attitude, but I mean, once you start doing the content it's not nearly as bad as you make it in your head.
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Ah I see.
 
Well ok, maybe this is in danger of derailment to some degree, but why not just had a group finder to help put together raid groups? Maybe it would gate you by not letting you queue unless you had 2750 base AP (Or 3500 for DS).
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If I'm misunderstanding what LFR is looking for, then I'm open to correction. For those looking for an easier version of GA, I understand the requirement to be that it is puggable, without voice or add ons, by a group of 20 strangers, and clearable in a sitting. That requires each boss to be one shottable (or maybe two or three shots here or there, but three shotting every boss would probably make the thing take longer than most people have time for in something thrown together at random).
 
Yes, I know you have asked that he instance be broken up into chunks to allow for multiple tries on bosses, but I haven't seen others asking for this, and quite frankly we don't know how difficult that would be for them to develop. Being that boss lockouts are already something the devs have said are a technical challenge, implementing a LFR version that breaks GA into chunks is probably not trivial. Again, spend development time on that, or something new?
 
So that is my understanding of what the LFR proponents want: a version of GA that is clearable with one or two shotting every boss without voice comms or add ons in a single sitting.
 
Regarding X-89 and changing mechanics, I'm not throwing around raider "cred". I'm saying experience >>>>>>> understanding mechanics when discussing what the essence of a fight is. I'm confident if you were to experience x-89 then if you were objective you'd see how any kind of easier variant of the bomb mechanic would lose what makes it fun and interesting. It's not really a difficult fight compared to others in the game, but it IS quite different and fun, even to repeat, because of how everything is tuned.
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I'm not trolling at all. Those inferences are honest-to-goodness what I've understood from reading the desires of the LFR crowd. What I've read from you specifically is a little different from others who want LFR.
 
Regarding forcing raiders to do rehash content- it's a legitimate concern because it's happened elsewhere.	
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I'm confused. A raid is a team, no matter if the group was put together through a dungeon finder or from a guild. By definition, rewards from a lfr/Crystal Tower-style raid would be rewards for completing team-based combat objectives.
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Ah I see.
 
Well ok, maybe this is in danger of derailment to some degree, but why not just had a group finder to help put together raid groups? Maybe it would gate you by not letting you queue unless you had 2750 base AP (Or 3500 for DS). 
 
My point is, the raids as they are are fun, and with maybe some minor added features (like an in-game voice chat option), we could get more people into them (and successfully defeating them). I think a lot of people tote the raids as some kind of insurmountable obstacle that's wildly impossible because of the #hardcore attitude, but I mean, once you start doing the content it's not nearly as bad as you make it in your head.
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I'm not trolling at all. Those inferences are honest-to-goodness what I've understood from reading the desires of the LFR crowd. What I've read from you specifically is a little different from others who want LFR.
 
Regarding forcing raiders to do rehash content- it's a legitimate concern because it's happened elsewhere.
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What has taken you from serious discussion participant here to troll poster is your assumption that option 3 is the one they want by default unless explcitly refuted--and then your continuing defense of that assumption after it was pointed out to you explicitly.
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I was in a guild where the standing policy was "do everything you can to help the team". Get your best runes, get your food, get the little upgrades you can, etc... and running LFR was definitely part of that because of the incremental power boosts. So in that case it's pretty close to required, not because they absolutely need it, but because (sadly or for fun) the culture is max effort for the team. There are enough guilds that work like that for it to be a consideration. So that's the 'forced' side.
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			I'm NOT sticking to option three. In fact, I believe that option 1 without changing the content at all would be fantastic.	
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Well... not really. A raid is a group effort that should require communication and coordination... teamwork! LFR, at least in WoW, requires exactly none of that. It's purely solo content because your only concern is yourself. Wether you go or stay or play or sit makes no difference. No teamwork involved.
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LFR is a response. One designed to keep subscribers, not create a great gameplay experience.
 
I dunno about you, but I'd rather have developers and designers working on creating fun games, not "systems" to hang on to subscribers.
 
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Just for a little context, my wife really enjoys the game, but she can't play on a schedule. The ability to play GA as it is right now, but broken up into chunks so that we could go in for a couple of hours on a free night would be amazing. Right now, it's hard to get her into a raid.
 
I'm hopefully that this type of thing will happen more often when people are loot locked to bosses rather than instances.	
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I think that increasing the number of checkpoints to one per each boss after each one and throwing the raids as they are in the LFR might be sufficient. People who want to experience the raids 'as intended originally' will be able to do so without having to find a dedicated guild. Though I'll admit that having easier modes that rewards less powerful loot than the original version wouldn't be bad. Not every player has the same level of dedication or skill.
 
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I'm NOT sticking to option three. In fact, I believe that option 1 without changing the content at all would be fantastic.
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What what what?? Yes, it's there to keep subscribers but it also provides a sufficient gameplay experience and rewards for them so that they keep coming back and keep being subbed. You are talking about it like millions of people who run LFR are chained up to computers and are forced to do it. What makes you think the experience isn't what they want it to be? Just because you hate it doesn't mean everyone does.
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I think that increasing the number of checkpoints to one per each boss after each one and throwing the raids as they are in the LFR might be sufficient. People who want to experience the raids 'as intended originally' will be able to do so without having to find a dedicated guild. Though I'll admit that having easier modes that rewards less powerful loot than the original version wouldn't be bad. Not every player has the same level of dedication or skill.
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For what it's worth, earlier in the thread I responded to him specifically to say I thought that saves would make the raid more puggable without changing the current mechanics at all.
 
I know that these discussions have a lot of people with similar viewpoints who get lumped together. I am not against LFR- but I do want those who are interest in seeing GA to realize that a toned down version will cause them to miss what is brilliant about it. The idea is to encourage a better way, which I think save points would accomplish.
 
Every time I'm in GA, I feel the giddy with how how fun it is, and just want everyone to be able to enjoy that. The Ex mode wouldn't have that, and it would make me sad to miss it. Something like save points (depending on how they are implemented) lets people see these fights without missing how great they are.	
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It's objectively poor gameplay... it simply doesn't offer any redeeming qualities beyond the reward, at which point its just s time gate. Not gameplay.
 
It's a means to an end. It doesn't even show players what real raiding might actually be like so they're incentivized to try it.
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LFR is a response. One designed to keep subscribers, not create a great gameplay experience.
 
I dunno about you, but I'd rather have developers and designers working on creating fun games, not "systems" to hang on to subscribers.
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i have no problem admitting if I'm wrong.
 
In fact, the whole reason I kept repeating my assumptions was to see if they were accurate. For you, they aren't. I don't know anyone other than you whose challenged them. But honestly, it isn't that important.
 
If LFR equals adding save points to GA, I'm in favor of it. What else do you want from me?	
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