110779-no-tokens-please-page-2

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That is a player-imposed sanction.
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Let's keep the goalposts where they are. ;)
 
If the criteria is "which is more fun" - tokens are more fun than repeatedly completing content and getting loot you don't want.
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Why don't you want it? I just illustrated how it's all useful in some way.
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Because it's not.
 
To use your example of survivability - maybe I already have gear that I depend on for survivability. If what I need for my build is a weapon that does higher DPS, if I don't get that my time's essentially wasted. What should be a reward is instead a dissatisfier.
 
Sure, when you're new you can make use of just about anything you can get that's better than what you have - but the more you dial in your gear the more you need specific pieces to the puzzle.
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Why can't we be "ok with what we got?" I mean, make the most out of your character by using the items you have access to - that, to me, is much more interesting.  It also makes getting that perfect piece of gear feel more like hitting the jackpot, which is *very* satisfying.
 
I think Carbine had it largely right, and players are wanting the same boring predictable loot schedule they've always had. With just some tweaks, this would be the most incredible MMO loot system… but the gutting of it is going to lose WildStar its identity.
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Why can't we be "ok with what we got?" I mean, make the most out of your character by using the items you have access to - that, to me, is much more interesting.  It also makes getting that perfect piece of gear feel more like hitting the jackpot, which is *very* satisfying.
 
I think Carbine had it largely right, and players are wanting the same boring predictable loot schedule they've always had. With just some tweaks, this would be the most incredible MMO loot system… but the gutting of it is going to lose WildStar its identity.
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That statement right there demonstrates why you're in left field in comparison to...well...the entire genre of game.
 
Firstly, "ok with what we got?" is just idiotic. This is not an FPS game. It's an mmorpg. Character power progression is what drives this style of game. Whether it's levels during early/mid or item progression during end game, people play to make their characters better. If you're "ok with what you got" great, but people don't play to be "ok with what they got" they play to experience their characters getting better. If you don't understand that there is no hope for you in this discussion. Second, hitting the jackpot is not very satisfying. For you it might be "very" satisfying. But hitting the jackpot means that the other end of the spectrum happens too. "Aw shucks loser, you just went 57 weeks with no upgrades cause you're not lucky! Try again next week sucker!" No thanks. Your recommendations are prettymuch in line with what they're not going to do as it's representative of a philosophy that's driving players away from the game. 
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I don't think I have the energy anymore… sigh. First, knock off the hyperbole.
 
It's not hyperbole. The entire genre of game is based on power progression in some form or other. You're advocating that people just accept getting crap gear and be okay with what they have. How bout no? Hell I don't even have to tell you no because Wildstar developers already did. The system is changing. Your idea isn't an alternative way to do what they're doing, it's a way to keep the system as bad as it currently is and not address the problems that it causes.
 
Look at what you just wrote and tell me that isn't a prescription for the same crap we've been playing for 10 years. Why do we as players want that… again?
 
Because it's an RPG? Did you miss out on Zelda, Dragon Warrior, Final Fantasy, Bard's Tale, D&D? You know, games where people collect items and level up. It's what separates RPG's from action games. It's the core of an RPG. The nuances of how change from game to game.
 
Carbine designed the WildStar itemization system to feel more spontaneous and have some constant item-over-item progression. They wanted us to chase the best possible "roll" we could for our gear… but at the same time, made it so they were in no way required and in fact stated that players would quite likely never get all BiS gear because of it. It was designed that way.
 
Except none of what they designed actually worked. There was no consistency to item progression. They created a stat system where the stats are completely meaningless because they don't impact rotations in any way, they're all just straight damage boosts in different ways where people always want certain stats over others because they're just plain better. There's a ton of hybrid gear that's just straight up not good for anyone that's clogging up loot tables. They added artificial grind via rune slots that's not fun, it's not progressive, it's rng garbage. It's the exact reason they're removing those elements from gear or providing the players ways to mitigate getting bad rng. It's the entire reason why they're redesigning gear right now. It's the entire reason they're customizing gear and making pieces good for certain classes and getting rid of the terrible hybrid gear. They're not doing it for the hell of it. They're doing it because they have to because the system they have in place doesn't work.
 
They made some mistakes however in the layers on RNG and the effort required to get a single reward, even a non-optimal one… It was Diablo loot without Diablo-esque access to the loot. So in that sense, that's where they should be looking to correct it. Not make it more predictable - just more available.
 
No. See above. Diablo loot is garbage. It does not work in an MMO and that's discounting the problems D3 had with loot that also required a complete revamp. Here's some rng with your rng, so you have a % chance of a % chance of a % chance of getting something worthwhile. Enjoy that complete garbage that fills up your bags! Hey what do you know, it's the exact same problem we had here!
 
Also, skill in WildStar is a much greater operator than a few points of a stat here and there. This is something else players need to embrace… I'll give you 50 points of the stat of your choice all day because I know my ability can overcome it.
 
Whoosh!
 
It would be great if players and the game studios that feed them started embracing the idea that you build the best character you can - but you should never expect to have the best character possible.
 
Double whoosh!
 
I don't know how you could possibly not get the point. People want clear, non-RNG methods to gear up. The devs of course don't want to provide methods that require no time investment to improve character strength so instead of making progressively stronger gear from Adventures, Dungeons, and then Raids they just made the loot garbage on top of adding random rune slots. Knowing what to do to improve one's gear and being able to work towards it matters. Without a clear path of item progression that gives people different tiers of both difficulty and reward that people can funnel through content becomes meaningless. Adventures don't get run aside from attunements because the gear is worthless even though it's puggable. Dungeons don't get run aside from attunements because the gear is worthless and it's not realistically puggable for silver. That entire philosophy permeates up through the raid content. Having perfect gear doesn't matter. Having a clear, understandable path to what is an upgrade and a reasonable expectation that if you invest time trying to get it (and you're successful at whatever it entails) it's not going to take you an unrealistic amount of time is what's important. That's exactly why the pvp weapons are so popular. They required an investment that people could work towards and they were a clear upgrade over other gear people could get. They're not making these changes arbitrarily. They're making them because they fix problems in their system that you seem to want to praise. Problems that are driving players away.
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			tokenss... :(	
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Let me help you understand Lethality.
Wildstar is an MMO based on the Trinity of classes.
Tanks need survivability. They tank the damage, they don't deal damage. They dont need dps stats on tank weapons/armor/gadgets w/e.
DPS need better DPS. They deal the damage. This making sense to you yet?
Healers need better support. They heal the damage taken.
 
Dps do not tank, they dont need survivability because they deal damage. Do you understand why people dont settle for ok items?
MMOS have and always will be about getting the best gear and stats possible. No one settles for crappy gear over and over and over again. Well ok you do, but that is a rare case.	
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Tokens are great.
 
Trading in tokens for J-Tal itemised gear at a vendor is still a waste of time. He knows you want Brutality and Moxie on your Esper healing gear!	
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I just refuse to believe that tokens are the only way to fix this. It's just the easiest way that's on full display *because of WoW*.
 
And that's what bothers me... that there doesn't seem to be time being spent to find a solution that works harder to preserve the unique in itemization plan for WildStar, love or hate RNG it can be awesome and very satisfying. 
 
Make fewer items drop from bosses, but make them drop every time, and then the item hunt becomes a little more manageable because you know that at least you'll have a chance at the best version your item *every* time the boss is killed.
 
Tokens just take all of the surprise and joy out of the item hunt. I hate knowing that I can buy my chest piece on October 18th. And that it will cost me precisely $23.40 in subscription time to do so.
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I don't like tokens because then you pretty much have to memorize the items they exchange for.  When something drops in a raid I should just be able to mouse over it and see the comparison with what I have equipped.  
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It's still less fun getting a token and then having to go to a freaking vendor to pick up your item. You cannot equip it right then.
 
It's not fun.
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I honestly don't see any reason why the Token system can't be appreciated for what it is: a complementary system to the existing loot tables, which the Devs themselves confirmed will keep on existing albeit slimmed down.
 
You can still run the same unnerfed content to get the one item you need, and if the token works for you, then fine, if it doesn't, someone else can use it. Why perpetuate the idea that the "fun" lies in constantly attempting to get that item and then ending up empty handed (I'm looking at you, damned Warden Palisades!!!)
 
We complain about tedium, we complain about chasing the carrot, and yet, when side strategies like this one is implemented, we get complainers simply based on the fact that "it looks too much like WoW". I like films a lot, should I complain because Christopher Nolan used a narrative technique that Alfred Hitchcock or Ingmar Bergman used first? Staples of the genre, friends, people will run the content repeatedly if they know there's at least something in it for them.
 
Lethality, you claim people hate you and that clouds their judgement. I say, stop trying to force your idea of the game into the Devs' minds. You can always become a developer yourself and create the world you want, without trying to push your "vision" down our throats.
 
Or you could pay my subscription, in that case I'll advocate to whatever you want.	
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Or you could pay my subscription, in that case I'll advocate to whatever you want.
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			On topic, tokens are awesome. Alternative methods for beating RNG are basically necessary in this day and age, lest you be that one person who never gets a BiS weapon for the entire time you spend raiding and wind up hating the game as a result.
			
				
	Edited August 28, 2014 by BusterCasey
	
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I don't agree with OP. But I have said before...
 
I prefer mixture of systems. Where bis for certain slots will be crafted (but with dungeon/raid drops as mats!! Not this BS with just recipes being drops), bis for some classes in some slots are items from tokens, and then the Holy grail... The named holy items that are bis for a couple slots. 
 
Like take an engi. 
 
Maybe the gloves and boots are best crafted, the chest piece is bis from a certain dungeon or raid boss, the legs are bis from a world boss or rare mob, weapon is best from token exchange from raid tokens. Of course we can have a mixture so that bis if you don't raid combines crafting, tokens, world and rare mobs, adventures and dungeons. 
 
So you get some quicker progress here and there but some items you will have as great but... Not as great as that one item that like 10 people have on the server! 
 
To me it's not about being exclusive or epeen, but about working hard, having something that you will farm for a year and still dream of it... But it's one or two items and the "for now" items are bad ass, but just not as awesome as that named item with that special ability that you can't get elsewhere. 
 
I'm not a fan of Diablo random stat gear because the drops are not numerous like in Diablo. It was a stupid idea when you run 20 dungeons, and you get the named loot and it's garbage. 
 
I'm not a fan of only drop loot. I'm a fan of bis always requiring involvement in all aspects of the game. Bis should require you to befriend crofters, engage in all 5mans, raids, world bosses, farm rare spawns, etc. Some should let you make steady progress you can feel and some should feel like the gods love you when you get it. 
 
We need all those to be sources of bis. We do not need to just say bis for all slots and all classes should be raid drops. I don't like that approach. Make your Raiders involve themselves with everything instead of... 
 
A couple hours eg farm
Log for raid
Grab mats from mat circle
Log off
 
That's why you have the dead feeling. Your items should make people go and get involved in stuff in your game. 
I hate what they did to ddo, but that game made us Raiders run every part of the game. We ran leveling dungeons for more power, a litany of raids, a whole bunch of endgame dungeons, farm rare mobs, exchange mats for raid crafting, etc. We were everywhere, in every aspect of the game because to get the best of the best required you to engage in all those aspects. 
Yes, it takes a lot of dedication to be the best of the best in such an item design but isn't that how it should be? 
 
I feel like Carbine took won't mistakes and didn't bother thinking too hard out of the box. Either crafting is too strong or useless. Learn from other mmos, Carbine, variety is the spice of life. 
 
I welcome tokens, but this system is still flawed. Very flawed.	
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ElGuapo you're blind like many other people, tokens and vendorable progression loot block other encounters from being installed in the game.
 
 
lets say there are 30 items on the vendor, maybe 40 or 50 items.
 
What if there were encounters in the game that people could look at the dungeon they just did and say F it, this didn't drop for me, I'm going to go over here and kill this guy, the next mob or next mob etc.
 
 
 
But With vendor loot token items, you have no extra encounters, all you have is loot that should have dropped, but now you're paid minimally as a sorry-you-got-screwed here is some pennies, save up enough kiddie kiddie and you can have a toy.
 
 
Vendor loot token purchased in-game cash shop items promote bad developing and rip off content/encounters from players	
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Nope... there's a huge difference between what I'm doing and what the complainers do. I'm raising awareness and promoting discussion, providing rationale to back up my opinions - all from a place of love for the game. The WildStar hate threads do none of that.
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ElGuapo you're blind like many other people, tokens and vendorable progression loot block other encounters from being installed in the game.
 
 
lets say there are 30 items on the vendor, maybe 40 or 50 items.
 
What if there were encounters in the game that people could look at the dungeon they just did and say F it, this didn't drop for me, I'm going to go over here and kill this guy, the next mob or next mob etc.
 
 
 
But With vendor loot token items, you have no extra encounters, all you have is loot that should have dropped, but now you're paid minimally as a sorry-you-got-screwed here is some pennies, save up enough kiddie kiddie and you can have a toy.
 
 
Vendor loot token purchased in-game cash shop items promote bad developing and rip off content/encounters from players
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Again, this serves no purpose except to add tedium to the game.
 
I applaud Carbine for moving away from any loot system where players can be eternally screwed over by RNG (and the old system definitely classified). RNG is not a substitute for challenge. Never has been. Never will be.
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If you were REALLY arguing for something to benefit the game, you'd be in favor of tokens because tokens keep people playing the game longer, and in the end, that's what'll keep WS alive.
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Find it a bit childish that the OP of this thread still hasn't taken the time to edit his OP despite claiming to be giving constructive criticism and feedback.So start by actually clarifying what type of tokens are being added so this misinformation spread about it being a valor point system or an additional currency on top of elder gems might stop and people could speak about what's actually happening, then again this thread wouldn't get as much traction if that would be changed i suppose. 
 
 
edit: re-written for further clarification.
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That's what's really bothering me about this thread. It's not a damn currency token!! It's a single-use item that you trade to the vendor for a selection of gear.
 
Saying we don't like extra currencies is about as relevant as saying we don't like our characters randomly exploding. Neither of those things is happening.
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That's what's really bothering me about this thread. It's not a damn currency token!! It's a single-use item that you trade to the vendor for a selection of gear.
 
Saying we don't like extra currencies is about as relevant as saying we don't like our characters randomly exploding. Neither of those things is happening.
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Every-things omni pay for slots, the end of this mess.
 
 
 
Don't QQ about being equal, the gear drops will handle that.	
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That's what's really bothering me about this thread. It's not a damn currency token!! It's a single-use item that you trade to the vendor for a selection of gear.
 
Saying we don't like extra currencies is about as relevant as saying we don't like our characters randomly exploding. Neither of those things is happening.
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Tokens of any sort are boring gameplay. That is what is in my original post. There's nothing fun about getting a token, which you cannot equip or measure stats against current gear, and then traps over to a vendor to exchange it. That is a *terrible* and boring design from where I stand.
 
And one thing leads to another.
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This system can work well but loot in general needs an overhaul ( which is coming..soon.). When you see people in Datascape wearing crafted items still you start to scratch your head. Should of been a bigger gap between Adventure, Dungeon, Raids with heavy thought on what in between crafted would of landed. Now granted many people say "Well this game isnt heavily driven by loot" but if that was the case why have loot in the raids since its all about the accomplishment. Sadly increasing the gap means increasing stats which means people do more healing and damage and the raids end up basically getting slightly...nerfed. But the game has a loot system so tiering is inevitable, I just wish more thought was put into the tiering of all the items. 
 
If people can min max gear according to the primary stat and make a stat weight according to what is easily needed I dont understand why gear is so awfully itemized stat wise. *****As an Esper seeing a chest piece with 100moxie 36finesse 100 brut is retarded when it should of easily been 100moxie 100finesse 36 brut or heck maybe cut back and make it 130moxie 70finesse 36 brut who knows. But stats on gear is a major issue thats needs a change I mean Light Armor having more brutality than moxie or finesse is retarded when its for spellslingers and espers.
 
Im all for the Tokens but what good is it if gear is horrible still. Only reason crafting is so good is because people did what Carbine didnt *****	
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ElGuapo you're blind like many other people, tokens and vendorable progression loot block other encounters from being installed in the game.
 
 
lets say there are 30 items on the vendor, maybe 40 or 50 items.
 
What if there were encounters in the game that people could look at the dungeon they just did and say F it, this didn't drop for me, I'm going to go over here and kill this guy, the next mob or next mob etc.
 
 
 
But With vendor loot token items, you have no extra encounters, all you have is loot that should have dropped, but now you're paid minimally as a sorry-you-got-screwed here is some pennies, save up enough kiddie kiddie and you can have a toy.
 
 
Vendor loot token purchased in-game cash shop items promote bad developing and rip off content/encounters from players
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You don't understand it do you.
 
You can't say F it and go over there and get it.  The token drops from one boss, just like the same pair of gloves drops from one boss.
 
They aren't saying right here's all the class loot and every single piece can be obtained from every single boss in a massive loot table.
 
Instead of having 72 items on a boss loot table there will now be 18 and YOU can pick what option you choose out of the 4 light/heavy/medium pieces using the token for that piece.
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Lethality was pretty clear. He prefers actual drops to token drops... He seems to understand just fine that the tokens are boss / dungeon specific and are tied to a single piece to allow shared gear type classes to not end up with a useless piece if say a SS support stat glove drops in a group with a DPS SS and 2 support Espers.
 
you can accomplish that goal in other ways with out tokens however. (e.g. instead the gear that can drop is limited to the class/builds that are present.)
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Lethality was pretty clear. He prefers actual drops to token drops... He seems to understand just fine that the tokens are boss / dungeon specific and are tied to a single piece to allow shared gear type classes to not end up with a useless piece if say a SS support stat glove drops in a group with a DPS SS and 2 support Espers.
 
you can accomplish that goal in other ways with out tokens however. (e.g. instead the gear that can drop is limited to the class/builds that are present.)
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Yes...already addressed in the same Nexus Report...called Smart Loot.  They can't do it yet and it will be "complicated" to implement.
 
That's not directed at Lethality anyway, the quote is from a different person.
 
It's fair enough if he likes the randomness but what I'd like answered is my point made earlier to him that there is absolutely zero difference in having a placeholder (token) for an item rather than getting the actual item there and then because:
 
a ) you wont have the runes etc there to put in it so it wont be an upgrade and you'll degrade your performance
b ) you get random rune slots so it's impossible to know what you're getting until you get it
 
The only thing is it's nice to go oh wow, I've got a new piece of loot BUT this wont affect open world drops and you will still get those as these ONLY apply to class set items.
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it's not complicated; they have half a dozen of the Warhammer devs on staff and WAR did it outright. I get why they are doing tokens; I'm just pointing out this thread has become pointless. Lethality was stating his opinion not arguing about what the tokens are. He doesn't like them - fin
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			For another time instead of 12 possible drops you'll have 3 possible drops, Medium, heavy and light for the 6 classes respectively. That's the only thing that is changing.	
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Have you watched the Nexus Report?  They said all of this, they clearly stated this is for class items only.  A smart loot function is difficult/time consuming for them to introduce.
 
Besides a smart loot system is completely and utterly the opposite to RNG - Lethality would have kittens at that :lol: , it's gifting you gear because it wont give you gear people already have!
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Tokens of any sort are boring gameplay. That is what is in my original post. There's nothing fun about getting a token, which you cannot equip or measure stats against current gear, and then traps over to a vendor to exchange it. That is a *terrible* and boring design from where I stand.
 
And one thing leads to another.
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I wont like the tokens now because I want no competition on the SS Chest piece when it drops.
I will like the tokens after I get my chest piece.
 
j/k Tokens are actually a very awesome idea imo.	
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It's still less fun getting a token and then having to go to a freaking vendor to pick up your item. You cannot equip it right then.
 
It's not fun.
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Hey all,
 
I went through and cleaned up this thread a bit. Please remember to keep it on topic and to discuss the idea not the poster. Also remember the #1 rule: 
"Keep discussions respectful, courteous, and polite."	
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Today on Nexus Weekly, Evan Graziano talked about some desire to implement some form of token currency.  This is presumably so that players get "something" instead of nothing for every effort.
 
The problem with tokens is that they're not fun. There's no "surprise" in them. It's not interesting saving up tokens and predicting exactly specifically when you'll have X piece of gear. That's boring.
 
WildStar's itemization is one of the most interesting in the genre… some may dislike the RNG and perhaps it was little heavy handed. It works better in a game like Diablo because there's constant loot dropping and you're not reliant on other players and an hour or more of gameplay for just a chance at something thou want.
 
But as Carbine works toward more and more predictability with gear, and set numbers of slots and now tokens, it's taking what was interesting about WildStar's itemization away.
 
Alternatives? I'd prefer to see a solution where the loot tables might be trimmed (as he mentioned) but maybe *all* loot would drop from the boss every time… then, the act of running a dungeon again to get a better roll on an item wouldn't seem as daunting since you know that at the very least the item will drop.
 
 Anyway, just wanted to drop this here for Evan and his team because… well I just think tokens and other alternative currencies are the quickest way to turn fun into a chore.  Getting the item is always going to be more fun than saving for it.
 
Thanks,
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What I am (and I think many of those, who are against precursors) trying to say is that Carbine really doesn't have to go that route, which seems rushed, a band-aid quick fix solution. It blindly copies what other MMORPGs are doing with the way loot is distributed.
 
And from that point it's not that we'll be getting precursors instead of actual armor pieces that is more disappointing, but the readiness to go the easier way to bring convenience instead of improving upon the design most of other MMORPGs go with without hesitation. Now that doesn't mean the system should never be changed, but I firmly believe Carbine shouldn't be so hasty with changing systems like that, especially when the proposed change is a complete copy of a system that does have it's own negative impact.
 
 
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Tokens of any sort are boring gameplay. That is what is in my original post. There's nothing fun about getting a token, which you cannot equip or measure stats against current gear, and then traps over to a vendor to exchange it. That is a *terrible* and boring design from where I stand.
 
And one thing leads to another.
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			Lesser RNG is always good	
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Swtor had at the start of the release PVP "bags" you open and got tokens. What i liked and perfer is a way to get gear thru grind and earning it. The tokens collecting allowed to log in regularly and play often to earn my way to gear. Other players can get their gear faster thru raids , high end skill etc but i preferred to get my pvp gear from pressing on thru tiers long term play that results in " PROGRESS"
 
nothing worse than a game that artifically attempts to cater to "hardcore" and then the only players that stay in the game are a small portion of the population of people that put the amount of effort into maintaining the time for the game. 
YES i agree everquest 1 was awesome with its attunement process but it was because there was a massive number of players AND many guilds. The guilds had players satisified enough with the game and things to do that they would be willing to "attune" you to becoming a member.
I went thru a 6 month trial process to prove myself to be accepted to the guild and YES it felt great getting the guild willing to see that you invested in them they invest in you.
 
This game has issues with low population and the fact that kids nowdays AND developers try to mash timers and fast pace into a MMO that should be designed for catering to many play styles. Once the many play styles are met then you can release "hardcore"
 
to jump right into it the game base of players is failing.
 
SWTOR had its issues and made F2P and Cartel items that did not break the game but many Bioware money and gave players a way to buy with case cool things that gave purpose to gather in the game.
I love this game and want them to fix this all over the place attempts to cement this game as a HIGH population game. Just start by allowing it to be progress in PVP and RAIDS then offer the hardcore in the future releases once you have a healthy player base
 
i was a hardcore everquest 1 player and i read that there are developers in this from everquest that is awesome the world NEEDS some of what everquest had only i hope you can get this right. You have a great game the graphics sound and unique nature of the art is AWESOME
hoping you can have more meetings on how to shore up the game
 
see star wars knights of the old republic they had to free to play and offer many things in changes and the game is flourishing
 
 
 
 
 	
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