123520-i-came-back-after-6-months-the-state-of-this-game-is-sad-page-2

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The games population skewing to the older side is all well and good and I myself am in my 30's so I would fall into that category, but in my opinion that is neither here nor there.  The point I was making is that there are aren't people around to do the group oriented content unless playing during peak times, and what could be done to help rectify that.  You stating that is the reason for the low pop during the day doesn't help at all and only emphasizes the point I was making about someone coming into the game that doesn't fit into the standard not having a positive experience and then further going on to not give positive reviews or recommendations about Wildstar.  I also never said it was a problem that people want to form groups within a circle of friends or guild, that is fantastic.  My comments were that not everyone has that luxury and it isn't good for the games long term health that those people have to just "deal" with it, when allowing more into the game with a model change would help with that problem.
 
Even if you are right about free to play not necessarily bringing in more revenue, I don't think you could argue that it will most definitely bring in more people, and if that allows the servers to host more activity around the clock that is a good thing.  Even if some of these people only spend 5 dollars a month that is more than NCsoft is making now not even marketing to those people.
 
I find it also slightly condescending your comments about these people playing working their 9 to 5 's and being "professional" so that they have their evenings to play.  There are many many job professions and careers that work on call, rotating, or in general off shift work.  To exclude opportunities in game by not actively trying to bring in bigger overall population, other than a almost non advertised 10 day trial, seems short sighted to me.  In my eyes its very simple, bringing in more people around the clock, professional or not, older or younger, should be what the goal is here.  Its best for everyone posting on these forums to have more people on the servers, for raids, group content and to have pvp be something other than a topic we don't like to talk about.  
 
To argue that bringing in more people, regardless of how, in this case with a free to play or hybrid model, as a bad thing is in my opinion not healthy long term for this game.  I would say that if Q1 financials aren't showing a marked improvement then it is almost a shoe in that some sort of pay model change will take place no matter how many on this forum fight against.  And if you actually look at the names posting here its like the same 20 people anyway so its a very small voice as it is.  I personally want to see Wildstar succeed and also have more people to play this great game with so this seems very simple to me.
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You know which games I don't have this issue with, in spite of my schedule...SWTOR, WOW, FF14, ESO, and GW2.  Now those are subscription, ftp, and hybrid models and yet I am able to at anytime I want, que or not,  find pvp, instance running, group content, you name it.  And the reason why isn't a secret, its because the populations are very very much larger than Wildstar currently has. That is the difference, plain and simple and for you to make the assumption that well they could bring in 10 thousand more people and that might not solve the problem is at best stretching to make your argument.  One only need to play any of those games that I mentioned to see that having more and more people playing around the clock solves a lot of the issues I have brought up, because by simple statistics alone the more people brought into the game the more chances to have them to play with.
 
They might form guilds, they might play with friends, but if that happens to be on a time table that I could play with them I would gladly join up and play as well, you seem to think that I don't agree with people developing groups of people to play with and that is simply not true.  Proof of that is I had made posts in the recruitment forums looking for a guild to play with during my schedule and was told that a) all the dominion guilds that played non peak have all moved to exile....which is a problem in and of itself, and that b) even on exile there is like maybe 2, and they aren't during my play time but just so happens to be the only guilds at all that raid outside or normal peak.
 
Opening the doors to more people will assuredly make it so that people of all play times will have more people to play with, I don't see how you can even make a logical argument against that.  
 
And besides for someone like you that has stated multiple times that you have no problem and only group with guildies and don't que, why do you even care if FTP might bring in more players for people like me to play with...what are you losing exactly..?	
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You know which games I don't have this issue with, in spite of my schedule...SWTOR, WOW, FF14, ESO, and GW2.  Now those are subscription, ftp, and hybrid models and yet I am able to at anytime I want, que or not,  find pvp, instance running, group content, you name it.  And the reason why isn't a secret, its because the populations are very very much larger than Wildstar currently has. That is the difference, plain and simple and for you to make the assumption that well they could bring in 10 thousand more people and that might not solve the problem is at best stretching to make your argument.  One only need to play any of those games that I mentioned to see that having more and more people playing around the clock solves a lot of the issues I have brought up, because by simple statistics alone the more people brought into the game the more chances to have them to play with.
 
They might form guilds, they might play with friends, but if that happens to be on a time table that I could play with them I would gladly join up and play as well, you seem to think that I don't agree with people developing groups of people to play with and that is simply not true.  Proof of that is I had made posts in the recruitment forums looking for a guild to play with during my schedule and was told that a) all the dominion guilds that played non peak have all moved to exile....which is a problem in and of itself, and that B) even on exile there is like maybe 2, and they aren't during my play time but just so happens to be the only guilds at all that raid outside or normal peak.
 
Opening the doors to more people will assuredly make it so that people of all play times will have more people to play with, I don't see how you can even make a logical argument against that.  
 
And besides for someone like you that has stated multiple times that you have no problem and only group with guildies and don't que, why do you even care if FTP might bring in more players for people like me to play with...what are you losing exactly..?
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If someone can honestly explain to me how everything is ok as long you don't play pvp, try to play dominion, or happen to play at all outside of your server's peak time, is a sign the game is doing good I would appreciate it. 
 
In my mind the fact that only one faction, of one server, during a few hours a night has enough population to do anything meaningful is not a good thing at all, and if that seriously is an improvement since drop 4 that is even worse in my opinion. 
 
I am sure no one cares, but just my two cents.
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No problem with bringing in more people....
Big problem with the kind of people brought in. That's what the whole arguing is about.
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Again, if you are a person that for the majority of your playtime is spent in guild, and in friends circles then how are you going to suddenly be wrecked by these "bad people" that are going to overrun the game.  Aside from having to ignore a few people.
 
 
 
Most of what you said in this, is as you admit your personal experience of which everything seems to be looking better.  That is no more or no less valid than my experience being somewhat different.  I agree that things do seem to be getting better, but I am open to the idea of other possible solutions that could really jump start the revival, it seems there are some here that are not willing to discuss payment model changes at all...and that is what I don't understand with the current state of the game.  As a side note, you said that you play off peak hours and see lots of people on both factions.   Seeing some people from time to time is a far cry from not spending infinite time in a que for dungeons / adventures / pvp, or spending a quarter of your time trying to find the right role mix to put something together.  And that doesn't even address the issue I brought up earlier about there not being raid guilds for off peak hours which you aren't going to be able to put together using in zone or /lfg chat.
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Thanks for the reply! And a very reasonably toned one too! I appreciate that.
 
Personally? I'd be very happy if things went Free to Play. However, a LOT of the people I game with would not, and that's my real concern. In practical terms I can compare the quality of say, the Tera FTP community with the WS community. I'll admit... the community I'm a part of, largely the Roleplayers, is just... the most amazing community I've ever been a part of in a game, and that probably explains a lot of my rose colored glasses here. I would worry FTP would ruin that community and bring in a lot of... well... bad elements, subpar players, and probably not do much for high end raiding, dungeon runs etc either. That's what I think it boils down to. A big community of online toxic waste, useless for anything but griefing and getting you killed in the bg/dungeon/raid.
 
I can't argue with you on the queues. I use the rp oriented channels like WSRP and things to chum for interest, and its always people I know or are only a few degrees of separation removed. That puts me in a very different place than someone relying on the queue system. So... I do hope that improves for you.  As for raid guilds.. are you on Entity? Perhaps I can try to chum up a list of off hours raiders you might look for.
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It's an older game, and, as has been said, they're rebuilding Wildstar.
 
No point in making another game on the Guild Wars 2 payment model if that's their audience, though.  Remember, NCSoft already makes money from GW2.  If Wildstar makes money by taking GW2 money, NCSoft makes no money.  It's very possible that the game could go F2P and make more money personally, and be a huge financial failure for NCSoft because it eats their profit from other games and loses people who won't play an F2P game.
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Besides, I'm not sure NCSoft is thinking "we have to have one action combat game that's B2P and one that's P2P otherwise they'll compete for the same audience" so much as "Carbine sold us on a game that they said would be profitable under the P2P model". In reality, it's not doing so well at drawing in players who "prefer to play P2P games". Also, NCSoft has already launched games with the P2P model that converted to hybrid/F2P when they couldn't compete with the P2P model. Why would they vow to keep WildStar P2P if it's not generating enough revenue to keep it profitable? They might be giving Carbine more time to turn things around, but IMHO, given NCSoft's track record with other games, it's highly unlikely that WildStar will keep the same business model if they can't.
 
In any case, we're both speculating here, and trying to plug the gaps between what we know, but we have very different assumptions about what NCSoft is thinking. :D
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We'll have to disagree since I am very convinced NCSoft has had that discussion. Specially when buying the idea from Carbine. Investment doesn't happen without market analysis.
 
And as far as NCSoft past history, I see that as a factor that makes them less likely to pull the plug early. They have suffered enough bad PR from their previous MMO decisions that they would struggle recovering if they did it again. They might as well bow out of the MMO market since there would be little consumer faith at that point. WildStar suffered (and still does) from it as it is already.
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I was super leery to even try Wildstar because of the NCsoft name attached to it due to the HORRIBLE customer service they provided in GW2. literally the worst customer service ive ever received my entire life
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What customer service?
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We'll have to disagree since I am very convinced NCSoft has had that discussion. Specially when buying the idea from Carbine. Investment doesn't happen without market analysis.
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Well, of course NCSoft had that discussion when buying the idea from Carbine. Of course investment doesn't happen without market analysis. That's also true of every MMORPG that has had to change business models to survive, though. Considering the number of times developers seem to have been caught completely off-guard by it, maybe it's not wise to launch a game without a contingency plan for when things go south - which they seem to do, more often than not, in spite of the market research that tells them their game is going to hit one out of the park.
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Again, if you are a person that for the majority of your playtime is spent in guild, and in friends circles then how are you going to suddenly be wrecked by these "bad people" that are going to overrun the game.  Aside from having to ignore a few people.
 
 
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Some people have this (mostly) incorrect perception that Free2play games have worse communities than subscription games. Apparently they have never played WoW, which has a notoriously bad community despite its subscription
 
@Vic I don't think WIldstar really has a higher age group than MMO's generally but I do think that like most other MMO's I have tried its player base is generally older than WOW's player base.
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Some people have this (mostly) incorrect perception that Free2play games have worse communities than subscription games. Apparently they have never played WoW, which has a notoriously bad community despite its subscription
 
@Vic I don't think WIldstar really has a higher age group than MMO's generally but I do think that like most other MMO's I have tried its player base is generally older than WOW's player base.
 
@Jahzar WIldstar was in no way one of the most polished MMO's at launch, sorry it just wasn't. It launched with only half the elder gem system in place and with one tradeskill not even completed and thats just for starters. The game wasn't polished at launch, it wasn't even complete.
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I dont care if Wildstar goes F2P or not. (but I do think F2P will get more players to join) I'm back and I'm enjoying myself:) But as a level 16 spellslinger it was a bit lonely....I cued for BG..I cued for random shiphands..NON popped for those 2-3 days i played on dominion side. Last night I restarted a spellslinger on the exilie side..hopefully more ques will pop...playing on the EU pve server.
 
And a tip from me...I find playing Wildstar without personal telegraphs to be quite fun:) I only have enemy red telegraph as shown:) How do I judge range? I shoot and if I see numbers I'm in range:) 	
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Yeah, that's pretty much false.
 
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I guess I have just been lucky then :D
I dropped SWTOR 2 months after release and have never been back so I wouldn't know how it is now.
WoW still takes the crown of worst MMO community as far as the games I play goes. love the game. hate the community
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I guess I have just been lucky then :D
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 I've been playing f2p/b2p games for years and never had much problems with the communities on any of them, (as a matter of fact WoW and FF14 have had the worst communities I've encountered) conversely some people here have had problems but its purely anecdotal in either case.
 
If they were trying to argue that f2p might make the community worse because there would be more players therefore more chance of encountering a bad player, then there would be some merit to that; but arguing that f2p makes the community worse simply because of the fact that they're f2p players has little logical basis.
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I've tried a few free games in my life, but the gameplay has always driven me away before the other players did, and that wsa just if my disgust for that payment model didn't first.  I know I won't play another F2P or B2P game again after seeing what they are and what they become.
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So are you saying that if this game went free to play or buy to play then you wouldn't play it?
 
I personally would, because I like the game, and the development team. Got a lot of respect for TT and the rest of the team for what they're trying to do with the mmo genre, but I don't like the fact that this game is so empty compared to other mmo's; not only is it depressing for me, but it's depressing for the other players, especially the new ones who come to try out the game but there's no one around for them to play with.
 
Realistically speaking, other than a relaunch, this game cannot stay as a p2p game. History has proven that first impressions are everything for p2p games, this one left a bad first impression and now its fallen into the downward spiral that is almost impossible to get out of. While a relaunch would give it another shot, in a vastly improved state, it would more than likely be too expensive and risky for NCSoft to consider.
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if first impressions where everything for a p2p, World of Warcraft shoud have never launched.....That game was horrible and tedious at launch
If first impressions where everything, the a relaunch for Final Fantasy would have made no sense, since the impressions were set.
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WoW was fine at launch, infact I would say it was brilliant. I played and enjoyed it for about 3years after that. Besides the basis for comparison when WoW launched was that every other mmo was substantially worse.
 
As for FFARR, the hint is in the title "A Realm Reborn", as in "this is a different product to the game that it once was". ARR had a very, very successful launch (so successful infact that they had to limit the number of people that could play it as to not overload the servers.) and continues to do well. I'm looking forward to the expansion coming out in a few months :)
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So are you saying that if this game went free to play or buy to play then you wouldn't play it?
 
I personally would, because I like the game, and the development team. Got a lot of respect for TT and the rest of the team for what they're trying to do with the mmo genre, but I don't like the fact that this game is so empty compared to other mmo's; not only is it depressing for me, but it's depressing for the other players, especially the new ones who come to try out the game but there's no one around for them to play with.
 
Realistically speaking, other than a relaunch, this game cannot stay as a p2p game. History has proven that first impressions are everything for p2p games, this one left a bad first impression and now its fallen into the downward spiral that is almost impossible to get out of. While a relaunch would give it another shot, in a vastly improved state, it would more than likely be too expensive and risky for NCSoft to consider.
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Wow brilliant at launch?
On what part?
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Gotta admit seeing a bunch of taurens sliding across the ground for 5+ minutes in loot position was kinda funny...
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Wow brilliant at launch?
On what part?
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Vanilla WoW was the best mmo experience I've had, by a long long, shot and I'm sure it'll continue to be until someone creates a virtual reality mmo. Blizzard did everything right with WoW which is why it's an mmo behemoth now. I don't really care for what current WoW is, with the dancing pandas and all that crap, but back in 2005 WoW was a different experience to anything else and was truly brilliant.
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WoW was fine at launch, infact I would say it was brilliant. I played and enjoyed it for about 3years after that. Besides the basis for comparison when WoW launched was that every other mmo was substantially worse.
 
As for FFARR, the hint is in the title "A Realm Reborn", as in "this is a different product to the game that it once was". ARR had a very, very successful launch (so successful infact that they had to limit the number of people that could play it as to not overload the servers.) and continues to do well. I'm looking forward to the expansion coming out in a few months :)
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Vanilla WoW had server crash and loot parsing issues for well over a year, enough that they were literally paying us to play.  Their PVP was hardly revolutionary... it barely existed at the time.  It was faster than its contemporaries, EVE and FFXI, but WoW's launch wasn't revolutionary except that it was a smidge faster than most games that were out at the time (and it wasn't the fastest).  You can't even release a game in that state now, even now.
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The games population skewing to the older side is all well and good and I myself am in my 30's so I would fall into that category, but in my opinion that is neither here nor there.  The point I was making is that there are aren't people around to do the group oriented content unless playing during peak times, and what could be done to help rectify that.  You stating that is the reason for the low pop during the day doesn't help at all and only emphasizes the point I was making about someone coming into the game that doesn't fit into the standard not having a positive experience and then further going on to not give positive reviews or recommendations about Wildstar.  I also never said it was a problem that people want to form groups within a circle of friends or guild, that is fantastic.  My comments were that not everyone has that luxury and it isn't good for the games long term health that those people have to just "deal" with it, when allowing more into the game with a model change would help with that problem.
 
~snip~
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Not trying to say that WoW was perfect by any means, but compared to what the other mmos were doing at the time it was, and even today it's grossly superior to the majority of mmos in alot of respects.
 
 
Fanboys alone dont make an mmo, FF has its share of fans but they didnt save ff14 1.0. Star Wars has more fans than just about any franchise but even they couldn't save SWTOR from its fate. Same goes for Elder Scrolls online. It's all in the quality really, and WS just wasn't a very good quality game at launch. It's getting there but its too late to expect people to return en-masse now because the hype machine is dead.
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Not trying to say that WoW was perfect by any means, but compared to what the other mmos were doing at the time it was, and even today it's grossly superior to the majority of mmos in alot of respects.
 
 
Fanboys alone dont make an mmo, FF has its share of fans but they didnt save ff14 1.0. Star Wars has more fans than just about any franchise but even they couldn't save SWTOR from its fate. Same goes for Elder Scrolls online. It's all in the quality really, and WS just wasn't a very good quality game at launch. It's getting there but its too late to expect people to return en-masse now because the hype machine is dead.
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Well yeah, if you agree that they had that discussion why wouldn't it still be part of the conversation?
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It's a different world now with automated group finders, much broader game perspectives, and a much more jaded population.  Fanboys play a HUGE role in getting people to play an MMORPG.  SWTOR wouldn't be half the game it even is now (which isn't half the game it was supposed to be) if Star Wars wasn't attached to it.  ESO wouldn't have even gotten off the ground if it didn't have Elder Scroll's name attached to it.  And the reason for that is that I was one of those Warcraft fanboys that kept playing WoW even though it could be frustrating.  It was all about seeing where it was going, not where it was.  And it got places.
 
Wildstar can go places.  At this point, the most cogent criticism people usually give it is that there aren't many players.  Which isn't entirely accurate, especially not as accurate as it was in November, and is almost entirely perpetuated simply because people say it's true.  Much like people complaining about queue times instead of trying to convince people to queue are essentially creating their own problems, the biggest problem right now is entirely generated by us.  We are telling people, in spite of the player population growing, that nobody is playing and that's retarding the growth of the game.  By not even acknowledging the improvements, players are self-inventing their own problems.
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I defintely agree with the first paragraph.  I thought ToR was a great game, even though many didn't and I still think it is a fun game, but if it didn't have SW attached to it along with their KotOR name, then yeah I wouldn't have played it or stayed as long as I did when it came out.  ESO, I never played Elder Scrolls but I tried ESO and it was okay.  Beta it was horrible.  But I gave it a try at launch and it actually was a lot better than in beta. 
 
Wildstar definitely can go places, but the problem is, is it to late?  Some of you may notice a population growth, which I am sure there is, but will it stay and grow after 2-3 months from now?  Only time will tell and only Carbine knows the actual numbers and growth etc.  Wildstar has the uniqueness to it in a way since it is sci-fi with no lightsabers and does have some great aspects to it.  IMO the biggest thing that hurt out the gate though was expecting people to want the hard core mmo and the grind and the attunments and the 40 man raids again.  You see it on the WoW forums how people want that back, and yes I do miss those days tbh, but in todays day, it just showed that most people don't want that anymore.  I think if Wildstar launched more like how this recent drop was, not as many people would have left.  Again, just my own opinion.
 
Don't get me wrong, I love a challenge which is why I do mythic raiding in WoW and I know Wildstar's raiding is pretty challenging as well.  I do admit I don't know much about the end game here or attuements etc. as I am only playing this as an alternate and just having fun leveling and exploring etc.  So I can't compare WoW to Wildstar raiding as I know from experience that Mythic raiding in WoW is very challenging as were heroics in MoP and on down etc.
 
Anyways, I guess to sum up, the game appears to be doing better but I just hope it isn't too late to keep growing here and like I said, let's see how the next couple of months go as people do come back but after their month is up or trials, it comes down to if they renew or not.
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Yeah, that's pretty much false.
 
The one F2P MMO that I stuck it out the longest with, SWTOR (I stayed subbed from launch to Wildstar), the community turned to crap when the pay wall was dropped. I'm not even talking about the people who put zero effort into playing the game, when it came to flashpoints, and excused it with a "Ho-hum!" type of response. Zone chat turned into a toilet in the Sith Academy, Dromund Kaas, and all the way to Nar Shadda. Not to mention Fleet chat. Where even in the off hours you'd see ridiculous amounts of over the top flaming, that included but not limited to blatant racism, religion bashing, homophobia, and sexism. The GM's just stopped trying to police their game, because of the influx of F2P players that had throwaway accounts. Where bans meant nothing. Before that there was NOTHING like what the community degenerated in to. Not even WoW was this bad in game (the off-topic section of the official forums during the BC expansion, were a different story though) as the GM's had almost a zero tolerance policy for the aforementioned behavior in SWTOR (and other F2P games I was a part of, albeit for not as long). And still do.
 
That's one of the very few things that I applaud Blizzard over. Can't say the same thing about Carbine, though. But for a different reason, as the community in game since launch, has been shockingly mature and respectful. And that's the general population. The housing and RP communities are even MORE Grade A. I guaran-damn-tee that WS's nice community will turn into a breeding ground for Edgy, "Try-Hard", Angst-filled, Socially Inept, Misfits, that populate -chan boards. Like what happened to SW (and every other F2P MMO that I've been a part of).
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What you're essentially suggesting is that only people that belong to rich boys club are decent human beings.
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Letting less skilled people into the raids was not Carbine's finest hour either. 
 
 
 
Also, 40 man raid were the promise of the game since nearly day 1. Certainly back as early as 2012. So any players coming in here and expecting different? Their own fault. Not the game.
 
 
 
WildStar is a victim of a scary trend in which *players* are the problem. Not the game.
 
 
 
 
What Trend?	
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I don't understand this. Are you saying that sub systems are for "rich boys"?
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I've actually had a better experience with Rift's community than with WoW community. Sure, first leveling zone turns into Barrens chat. But Barrens chat exists in a pay to play MMO too. And most people that dislike the game won't make it out of the first zone. Then your audience also filters yourself out over time. The first time Tera went free to play the tutorial zone spent all their time discussing how innaproppriate Elin looks. The same couldn't be heard outside of the tutorial zone and was no longer present after 2 weeks. 
 
What you're essentially suggesting is that only people that belong to rich boys club are decent human beings. Which, from my experiences, is very much not true.
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looking at my guild... Yes. From Wildstar there are more and more people following me to Rift or Guild Wars 2, because they bought the essential sub when they had a steady job and now they're not so sure anymore. It's quite tragic actually, because you can feel just how stressed people are that would have to leave the game in April, May, June, July. You offer them CREDD, but they don't play enough to stress over making enough for CREDD and others even stress of will there even be CREDD in the X amount of months when their sub runs out. 
 
So while rich can be debatable, a person that is in a stable position at least is required. And in today's economy that's not exactly a lot of people right now.
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For the game to be profitable, there have to be enough people to fund it, whether the game is F2P or sub or whatever. Going F2P isn't going to fix the economy. So "that's not exactly a lot of people right now" would be a problem no matter what the model is.
 
But I do object to labeling the people who can afford a $15 sub per month the "rich boys club", implying an exclusive, snobbish group of players. Most people spend more than $15 per month on entertainment.
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			Lol, $15/month = rich boys club.  I don't think I would have qualified as "rich" when I was paying my way through life working part time at Petco, while being able to afford a WoW sub.  If $8/hr = "rich" I really hope you get back on your feet someday.	
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Lol, $15/month = rich boys club.  I don't think I would have qualified as "rich" when I was paying my way through life working part time at Petco, while being able to afford a WoW sub.  If $8/hr = "rich" I really hope you get back on your feet someday.
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It adds up. 
Medicine expenses, bills, taxes, food, savings, necessary costly occasions and saving up for them... Is adding an 8£ monthly commitment on that a good idea? Sure, some months your left overs are going to be large. But what about when you have an accident? It's always better to not over commit. Especially when you don't always know will you even keep a job with companies going under and coming back up.
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Lol, $15/month = rich boys club.  I don't think I would have qualified as "rich" when I was paying my way through life working part time at Petco, while being able to afford a WoW sub.  If $8/hr = "rich" I really hope you get back on your feet someday.
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{| class="blockquote"
I haven't been without a job since I was 17 or 18 years old. I work so I can do what I want, when I want. $15.00 a month is less that 50 cents a day. 
 
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{| class="blockquote"
Where do you live?
 
Exactly my point! It's better to spend your money and invest your time into games that don't exclude you when you get into a tough situation! That way you'll have a better value for your money, because if God forbid something happens you can still continue to play. 
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{| class="blockquote"
If something were to have happened to me to where I couldn't afford my gaming sub, my priorities would certainly not have been focused on how it would impact my gaming life.  I don't need gaming.  I enjoy it, and I can afford it.
 
I would like it if Ferrari would let me test out some of their prototypes on a race track, but I can't afford it.  Should I write to Ferrari to have them drop the price tag?
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It seems to me that CREDD is tailor made to situations of uneven income.
 
At any rate, I don't think you can credit people being unable to spend $15 per month on the number of sub vs f2p games. It's a lot more complex than that.
 
If being able to spend $15 per month earns me inclusion in the "rich boys club", then what kind of club are the folks in who can't afford it but are willing to let other people pay so they can play for free?	
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{| class="blockquote"
So while rich can be debatable, a person that is in a stable position at least is required. And in today's economy that's not exactly a lot of people right now.
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{| class="blockquote"
Where do you live?
 
Exactly my point! It's better to spend your money and invest your time into games that don't exclude you when you get into a tough situation! That way you'll have a better value for your money, because if God forbid something happens you can still continue to play. 
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{| class="blockquote"
Should I write to Ferrari to have them drop the price tag?
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{| class="blockquote"
You should write to them to change their pricing so other people pay for you to ride.
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{| class="blockquote"
It seems to me that CREDD is tailor made to situations of uneven income.
 
At any rate, I don't think you can credit people being unable to spend $15 per month on the number of sub vs f2p games. It's a lot more complex than that.
 
If being able to spend $15 per month earns me inclusion in the "rich boys club", then what kind of club are the folks in who can't afford it but are willing to let other people pay so they can play for free?
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{| class="blockquote"
Where do you live?
 
Exactly my point! It's better to spend your money and invest your time into games that don't exclude you when you get into a tough situation! That way you'll have a better value for your money, because if God forbid something happens you can still continue to play. 
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			To be clear, we are talking about a hypothetical crisis situation which MIGHT happen to one person that could be a reason for one lost subscription.  I don't think that is grounds for changing a payment model.	
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Funny enough, I've known many weed smokers with no income who can scrounge up $200 monthly for an ounce of chronic.
 
When you really want something, you make it happen! :lol:	
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{| class="blockquote"
In the "pay when you can afford it" club. Last month I spent 20£ on Guild Wars 2 and 20£ on Rift. Because I'm grateful to them and that was a good month. Because I get goodies to enjoy for that money. And because I know that when I hit the rough spot I don't have the absolute need to pay. I can choose to pay. I don't have to. Same for all of the people that suddenly can no longer afford a sub MMO. Same for all of the people that wouldn't even consider a sub MMO because of the monthly commitment. 
 
Don't try to shame people just because their life isn't great every month and because they have dark patches in their life, but they still want to stay with their friends. 
 
I mean what happens when a person can no longer pay a sub in a P2P MMO? Their guild loses them. If they have strict activity rules, chances are they lose them for forever. What happens in B2P and F2P MMOs? You still have that person hanging around with you. Playing with you. Interacting with you. They're never actually gone from the community.
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{| class="blockquote"
Don't try to shame people just because their life isn't great every month and because they have dark patches in their life, but they still want to stay with their friends. 
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			CREDD is in place for the poor people who can't afford the sub... I don't know why you're complaining.	
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{| class="blockquote"
 
To put this opinion of mine in context, I owe $70k in student loans to my government, 3k to my Visa, make close to minimum wage, have few prospects where I live... and can comfortably afford the sub while still maintaining a life. If I were to get sick and have to pay big medical bills, or had a child, that's on me.
 
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{| class="blockquote"
 just because their life isn't great every month and because they have dark patches in their life, but they still want to stay with their friends.
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{| class="blockquote"
So you spent 20 pounds on GW2, and 20 pounds on Rift, and are complaining that Wildstar is 8 pounds?  I just need to make sure I have the facts straight here.  (sorry, don't know how to make that symbol on my American keyboard)
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{| class="blockquote"
How is this in any way Carbine's responsibility? Or anyone's other than their own? *scratches head*
 
Mind you, I'm not claiming it's the player's fault. Just that it's their responsibility. If you're that poor, do something about it, and if you can't, you've got MUCH WORSE problems than being unable to play this one particular game.
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{| class="blockquote"
I have no loans. Nada. Why with all of that do you consider it to be smart to even spend 15 a month? Especially when you owe 3K credit to a bank?! Heck that's the situation that I'm avoiding by instead spending less than living with my head being burried in loans. I've seen my mother pay off a 40 year appartment loan and split her hair over going jobless twice in that time. No, no, no. Loans are a really bad idea. And if you have such a huge loan on your head, it's better to get rid of it faster than to add monthly commitments on top. How does one even allow their credit card to get into a minus anyway?
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{| class="blockquote"
exactly my point. And then you don't play this particular game. And then your friends get upset that you can't play, so they leave with you to play something else. And while playing something else those people fall in love with those other games. And no longer come back to even support this one. 
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{| class="blockquote"
Well then your argument here seems to be: It's for Carbine's own good to go F2P so they can keep friends together and the population active. I'll accept that as a premise.
 
But then... what about all the people who leave and lose their friends because they are disgusted by F2P practices and/or communities?
 
This is just going to turn into who should be favoured more. And considering that one system is already established it makes zero sense for Carbine to do big changes to appease poor players who want to play with their friends. There is absolutely nothing to stop those same people from up and leaving the game together, should they desire something new or better.
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{| class="blockquote"
How does one even allow their credit card to get into a minus anyway?
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{| class="blockquote"
Well then your argument here seems to be: It's for Carbine's own good to go F2P so they can keep friends together and the population active. I'll accept that as a premise.
 
But then... what about all the people who leave and lose their friends because they are disgusted by F2P practices and/or communities?
 
This is just going to turn into who should be favoured more. And considering that one system is already established it makes zero sense for Carbine to do big changes to appease poor players who want to play with their friends. There is absolutely nothing to stop those same people from up and leaving the game together, should they desire something new or better.
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I get that you are the type of person who wants to pay as you go and figure out what you can afford.
 
I'm not like that. I actually *do* budget and am concerned even with $15 monthly expenses. Why is why I want a predictable amount that I pay and gets me access to the game.
 
Playing a game that is trying to entice me to pay extra money is exactly what I don't want- after my budget, I don't want to think about money and I don't want to be pressured into spending more. I'll quit before subjecting myself to that. So you have your preferred way and I have mine. Mine doesn't make me a "rich boy" any more than yours makes you a "freeloader".	
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The real kick in the pants is that you could have bought 5 months of Wildstar last month and STILL been able to play GW2, Rift, and Wildstar.  But felt that the perks in the other games were of more value to you than playing all three games.  I'm sorry, but I really don't understand what grounds you have anymore.  Not to mention that this is only going to be a problem for you IF you have some medical emergency.
 
There really isn't a leg to stand on here.	
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You could have just done what i did and cancel your sub and bought CREDD.
 
What a silly argument...	
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{| class="blockquote"
 But is it a wise decision ti invest into entertainment when you have such a debt over your head?
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{| class="blockquote"
 But is it a wise decision ti invest into entertainment when you have such a debt over your head? If the answer is yes, then I wish I could ever feel as secure in my job position as you do.
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{| class="blockquote"
that always depends in whether or not this quarter they're still in the minus. If we see a plus, then bravo! Keep on going down that road see if the game slowly builds up over the upcoming year. If we see a minus again, then it's not a wise road to be on and the reason why they're on it is because they want to keep their work of "sub till death". 
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{| class="blockquote"
 
The wisest decisions I make are the ones that make me most happy, while least affecting the happiness of others. ;)  If you've been thinking of savings since the age of 6, I don't know what to say. You were either a financially precocious child, or you were raised in a culture that valued money and stability. I was raised in a culture that valued drugs, racism, and sexual deviance. Consequently my goals as I aged were not oriented around money or having a steady job, but the salvation of my sanity, emotions, and artistic sensibility. :P
 
Wisdom is not about being solvent. Wisdom is, to me, about knowing yourself and thinking ahead to the outcomes you both expect and want to see.
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{| class="blockquote"
I think that seeing people doom generations into poverty made me very paranoid about everything I do. It's not that I was even brought around a stable environment. My grandmother lost everything when the soviets walked in and threw her and her mother out just the way that they were standing. One reason why I'm very much against debts is because you can live just fine without them and I have seen people lose their lives to them. I really don't like this fragility of the economy. Makes me feel very unsafe. 
 
That being said, all I would like is for the game not to die. Sticking your head into the sand and saying that everything is fine fixes nothing.
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{| class="blockquote"
Yes, but they haven't.  They've been releasing far better patches, including a 10 day trial, they are doing things to make the game better.
 
However, your assertion is based on an idea that people with no money should be able to play.  Which isn't exactly going to keep the game from dying.  The only way to keep the game from dying is to make more money.  They can do that the way they're trying to, by making the game better and attracting more people, or they can make the game worthless and try to sell you the things that are worth anything, but they can't do it by simply not charging people.  Someone's going to be paying a LOT of money or the game would be just as dead.
 
Carbine, and to be fair NCSoft so far, are doing what they can with the resources they have available to answer our concerns.  They're seeing their population numbers rise and they're seeing public perception of the game slowly recover.  They're not sticking their heads in the sand.  Right now, they're doing it the right way, by just making the game better.
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{| class="blockquote"
Sticking your head into the sand and saying that everything is fine fixes nothing.
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			I've seen a rise of active players on Jabbit.	
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{| class="blockquote"
Being against F2P is not the same as sticking my head in the sand. Whether making WS going F2P would make money for NCSoft is conjecture.
 
I believe it's quite reasonable to think that a steady climb has a better chance of success than a hail mary bomb of F2P.
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{| class="blockquote"
I think that seeing people doom generations into poverty made me very paranoid about everything I do. It's not that I was even brought around a stable environment. My grandmother lost everything when the soviets walked in and threw her and her mother out just the way that they were standing. One reason why I'm very much against debts is because you can live just fine without them and I have seen people lose their lives to them. I really don't like this fragility of the economy. Makes me feel very unsafe. 
 
That being said, all I would like is for the game not to die. Sticking your head into the sand and saying that everything is fine fixes nothing.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
And how do you know what Carbine is or isn't seeing?
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"maybe" they can survive as a p2p.... maybe.
 
but you know what ? looking at the current numbers and knowing that they won't all of a sudden double, you guys understand that there is no money for new content anymore, right ?
 
yes, yes, instead of the monthly content updates Carbine basically spread all they had over a longer period of time (so next year fall content: shade's eve!)
thing is, with the sort of money they are bringing in at the moment... we won't see that much new content.
IF they decide to change their business model and it increases revenue then we might start seeing stuff.
as it is now, there is NO way they can work on cost heavy new content.
So, you all have to understand that probably most of their team is currently working on the business model switch and everything else that it implies.
 
this is not doomsaying. its being rational.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I think that seeing people doom generations into poverty made me very paranoid about everything I do. It's not that I was even brought around a stable environment. My grandmother lost everything when the soviets walked in and threw her and her mother out just the way that they were standing. One reason why I'm very much against debts is because you can live just fine without them and I have seen people lose their lives to them. I really don't like this fragility of the economy. Makes me feel very unsafe. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
"maybe" they can survive as a p2p.... maybe.
 
but you know what ? looking at the current numbers and knowing that they won't all of a sudden double, you guys understand that there is no money for new content anymore, right ?
 
yes, yes, instead of the monthly content updates Carbine basically spread all they had over a longer period of time (so next year fall content: shade's eve!)
thing is, with the sort of money they are bringing in at the moment... we won't see that much new content.
IF they decide to change their business model and it increases revenue then we might start seeing stuff.
as it is now, there is NO way they can work on cost heavy new content.
So, you all have to understand that probably most of their team is currently working on the business model switch and everything else that it implies.
 
this is not doomsaying. its being rational.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
"maybe" they can survive as a p2p.... maybe.
 
but you know what ? looking at the current numbers and knowing that they won't all of a sudden double, you guys understand that there is no money for new content anymore, right ?
 
yes, yes, instead of the monthly content updates Carbine basically spread all they had over a longer period of time (so next year fall content: shade's eve!)
thing is, with the sort of money they are bringing in at the moment... we won't see that much new content.
IF they decide to change their business model and it increases revenue then we might start seeing stuff.
as it is now, there is NO way they can work on cost heavy new content.
So, you all have to understand that probably most of their team is currently working on the business model switch and everything else that it implies.
 
this is not doomsaying. its being rational.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
no you're doomsaying,
 
going pay to win wont be new content either, it will be buy this pet for 14.99
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{| class="blockquote"
CREDD is in place for the poor people who can't afford the sub... I don't know why you're complaining.
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			i for one welcome our new protostar corporate overlords.(i dont really i just love the quote)	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
"maybe" they can survive as a p2p.... maybe.
 
but you know what ? looking at the current numbers and knowing that they won't all of a sudden double, you guys understand that there is no money for new content anymore, right ?
 
yes, yes, instead of the monthly content updates Carbine basically spread all they had over a longer period of time (so next year fall content: shade's eve!)
thing is, with the sort of money they are bringing in at the moment... we won't see that much new content.
IF they decide to change their business model and it increases revenue then we might start seeing stuff.
as it is now, there is NO way they can work on cost heavy new content.
So, you all have to understand that probably most of their team is currently working on the business model switch and everything else that it implies.
 
this is not doomsaying. its being rational.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
"maybe" they can survive as a p2p.... maybe.
 
but you know what ? looking at the current numbers and knowing that they won't all of a sudden double, you guys understand that there is no money for new content anymore, right ?
 
yes, yes, instead of the monthly content updates Carbine basically spread all they had over a longer period of time (so next year fall content: shade's eve!)
thing is, with the sort of money they are bringing in at the moment... we won't see that much new content.
IF they decide to change their business model and it increases revenue then we might start seeing stuff.
as it is now, there is NO way they can work on cost heavy new content.
So, you all have to understand that probably most of their team is currently working on the business model switch and everything else that it implies.
 
this is not doomsaying. its being rational.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Since wildstar is new it might go on for a bit but the question is for how long if nothing gets changed?
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{| class="blockquote"
They closed City of Heroes who had more then twice the income and twice the population Wildstar has now.
Since wildstar is new it might go on for a bit but the question is for how long if nothing gets changed?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
They closed City of Heroes who had more then twice the income and twice the population Wildstar has now.
Since wildstar is new it might go on for a bit but the question is for how long if nothing gets changed?
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