117681-credd-expiry-why-massive-turn-off-to-potential-returners-page-2

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I liked Naunet's quote. It was in response to someone who said something to the effect of "Hey, it's a sweet deal for Carbine if they take the 20 bucks and pocket it. LOLOL". That was an appalling sentiment, and Naunet was right to criticize it.
 
My point is that the three month expiry window for CREDD is part of the CREDD system. It's been there from the start. The people who buy CREDD know perfectly well that it's got to be used within three months of dropping their sub. They buy it anyway. If it then expires, that is NOT a "business doing things that are bad for consumers". Nobody had to pay cash for it CREDD if they didn't like the deal, they still can play without it. It is not a grocer's fault if you buy an apple and don't eat it.
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Saying the reason is because they say so isn't a real reason if so them I'm sure you would be perfectly fine with them taking all your game and when you ask them and why they're reason is because we felt like it. 
 
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			CREDD expiration is entirely within the spirit of the #hardcore mentality that defined the development of this game.	
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You're missing the point. You said this:
 
Yasfan was pointing out that CREDD is not, and never has been, redeemable at any time. CREDD is only redeemable until 3 months after your subscription expired. After that, it's not redeemable any more. That's what CREDD is. It comes with the expiry clause. It always has.
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"It's been there from the start". The game is less than half a year old. People also bought CREDD with the promise that there would be new content every month and the expectation that they would have something new to experience from month to month, and you can bet Carbine didn't expect the numbers of people leaving the game that did. So, yes. CREDD expiring is a bad idea if Carbine wants to bring people back to the game after they've gotten tired of WoD or ArcheAge and wanting to jump back into WildStar once the bugs are fixed, systems are adjusted and single player Elder Game content that was promised for launch is actually in the game. Just because "it's been there from the start" doesn't mean it's a good idea, especially given the state of the game and the challenges that Carbine is having retaining players.
 
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People also bought CREDD with the promise that there would be new content every month and the expectation that they would have something new to experience from month to month
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That's not a point. That's pure conjecture. Plenty of people have left the game that may come back and grow the game. There are people who go back to WoW with each expansion after over a year away from the game. What you're saying is that CREDD expiring is like Carbine saying "don't let the door hit you on the way out" and you're OK with it.
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*facepalm*
 
Are you seriously telling me that you can see no reason why a game might want to have people playing it rather than not playing it?
 
That's the reason why they want you to use your CREDD rather than save it forever. It's why they don't make your CREDD expire as long as you're showing up and playing. Because every player adds value to the game by showing up and playing the game. By the way, this applies to both cash subscribers and CREDD subscribers.
 
You earn the right to hold CREDD indefinitely by showing up and playing on a regular basis. Because we all win when people show up and play, and Carbine rightly recognizes the value of it and rewards it with the ability to not just pay as you go with CREDD, but to build up a reserve lasts even after you let your account lapse for three months.
 
In addition to that, you can renew your subscription every month, pay-as-you-go, by cash or by CREDD.
 
What you can't do is run out of CREDD and then play until you get more for free. Because you didn't earn that right.
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Making it expire doesn't make people want to play the game, forcing them to use game time when they don't want to play isn't going to make them want to play it's going to make it so they don't return because they don't have that game time to return to the game when they actually want to play it. This means the people saving their cred for a time when they want to play the game won't come back because they won't have the game time they earned while playing to come back, and those with stockpiles of credd that had no intention of coming back aren't being encouraged to come back by putting an expiration on it they don't care they aren't coming back.
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Inorite? It's almost like somehow they're expected to support the game even if they're not doing so with cash! Like somehow they have something they need to earn! Crazy, I know! It's almost as if it's not a F2P game!
 
But it is totally unfair, I'll admit. Someone playing a video game to earn plat and keep their sub up sounds like they're having a LOT more fun even if the game's not everything we might hope it would be than someone who pays their way with cash they earned from working.
 
I would be really upset if people who felt that the game wasn't even worth playing it to keep being allowed to play it couldn't come back. That would be awful.
 
 
No. Unused CREDD is unused CREDD. If CREDD isn't plat, it's also not game time. It doesn't become so until it is redeemed. Sorry.
 
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First of all they aren't playing with out a sub that's what C.R.E.D.D is they paid for 30 days and saved it for later there's nothing free about it.
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What you can't do is run out of CREDD and then play until you get more for free. Because you didn't earn that right.
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			Gotta say, I haven't read anything going on here but hey, with enough attention, we could get a Carbine response on the matter.	
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To my knowledge, there is no place that the game holds up a glowing neon sign and yells "CREDD expires!" at you. Just like there's no place in the game that says "You can't replace your graphics card with one below [insert minimum specs here]!" And yet, if your graphics card goes out and you need to replace it, I think we can all agree that it is not Carbine's fault if you don't look up this game's minimum specs before you go buy a new one and suddenly can't play any more.
 
CREDD is not a term that exists outside of this game--it's pretty much guaranteed that none of us knew what it meant before we were looking into getting the game. The details on it aren't buried in the middle of a 200 page document. They're in a section called "Frequently Asked Questions" on the Business Model page that you can reach straight from the main page.
 
Businesses have responsibilities in a transaction, but so do consumers. I refuse to accept that consumers have so little responsibility that the business should be required to flash the phrase "If you don't know what a word means, and that word seems like it might be central to the transaction, you should go find out what it means" in front of the player's face.
 
As for the "no good reason" meme that's now recurring through this thread, I take it that "because you need to actually pay to be here: either by cash or by showing up and playing the game on a regular basis" isn't a good one?
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			This whole discussion would end if/when someone of authority comes here and explains IF CREDD actually expire, and IF they do, then explain when said expiration happens. The why isn't our business, IMO, so demanding they tell us why, and arguing about the "what if's" is silly.	
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Oh, the irony of making a post that says this:
 
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As for the "no good reason" meme that's now recurring through this thread, I take it that "because you need to actually pay to be here: either by cash or by showing up and playing the game on a regular basis" isn't a good one?
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Oh, the irony of making a post that says this:
 
 
And is responded to with this:
 
 
So I guess I'll ask again, although I'm not expecting any of the several people now insisting that there's no good reason why CREDD should expire will bother to actually answer.
 
Do you just not think that "we want people to either support our business by paying money or by playing the game on a regular basis" is a good reason?
 
I ask because the ability to store CREDD is the only way that this game gives an incentive for you to stay in the game and keep playing continuously. If you do so, you can store up CREDD. If you don't, you can't and have to spend it before you let your account stay inactive for three months. It's true for both cash subscribers and CREDD subscribers.
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			I've pretty much said everything I can on this subject. IMHO, nobody has given any decent justification for CREDD expiring, and there have been plenty of good arguments in favor of CREDD not expiring. But I've spent too much time on this. I'm out. I really have to stop being this guy. ;)	
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IMHO, (outside of "I don't like it expiring") nobody has given any decent justification for CREDD not expiring, and yet there have been plenty of good arguments in favor of CREDD expiring, especially when you consider that it's a business decision.
 
In fact, from just a few posts up there is this:
 
Carbine want people to support their business by either paying money or by playing the game on a regular basis. CREDD must expire in order to encourage people to play regularly (be subbed for one month in four).
 
Making a post claiming that "nobody has given any decent justification for CREDD expiring" straight after a post that provides a decent justification for CREDD expiring is odd at best.	
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Anyone's who has ever bought credd, whether through plat or real money, has supported this game. 
 
The game is already lacking in players, and forcing someone to pay $15 just to try out the new drop makes people less likely to return. If credd never expired, then people are extremely likely to return to check out new drops. As several people have already said, if they lost all their CREDD because they were gone for 3 months, they wouldn't come back. If that happened to me I probably wouldn't either. 
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Hey folks,
 
This thread is getting a bit heated so I think it may be a case of everybody taking a step back or perhaps the thread needs closing for now.
 
I think there are some valid points in this thread (both for and against) that are food for thought. I, personally, think that there is value in potentially removing or increasing the length of, C.R.E.D.D expiration, especially for those who may consider coming back to WildStar with the upcoming drops. However, we do want players to be encouraged to regularly support the game/log in/play etc as that's important for the health of the community.
 
Lets take a step back from this thread for the moment. Right now the expiration is in place and it's not something that would be changed over night but it may be something worth considering if the right solution can be found.	
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I’m not reading the whole thread, so this may have well be mentioned already, but I’m sure I heard someone from Carbine say there’s a legal reason why it expires.	
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			It makes sense to certain extent to let it expire, it isn't a physical item, it needs to be kept track of, and accounts need to be turned off eventually if not in use, I believe personally that this is so they don't have a system tracking current credd overloading with long forgotten pieces sitting collecting dust in someones account years down the line (not doing so musses stuff up I bet)	
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 I, personally, think that there is value in potentially removing or increasing the length of, C.R.E.D.D expiration, especially for those who may consider coming back to WildStar with the upcoming drops. However, we do want players to be encouraged to regularly support the game/log in/play etc as that's important for the health of the community.
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Expiration on CREDD is a money grab for Carbine and nothing more. If someone forgets about it, goes on active duty, gets the game taken away until the summer for bad grades, rig breaks down and takes months to fund for repairs or a new one, gets hit by a car and ends up in the hospital for a few months or whatever else mundane or extraordinary things that happen in the lives of those holding CREDD, every time they forget or cannot log in it is $20 in the bank for free...
 
Ching Ching! Let the cash registers ring!
 
Hard, cold business.... Unfeeling and uncaring... Taking with both hands and giving nothing in return.
 
Someone "hoarding" all the CREDDs is no different than someone purchasing a year or two of game time up front or someone going in and buying thousand of dollars in WOW game time cards... ZOMG! They might become the king of virtual currency and get all the golds in all the games in the world!
 
If it bothers you so much that people have more CREDD or Plat than you then do something about it but to stand up and say that people deserve to lose what they paid or worked for because they didn't "eat it all in one sitting" sounds more like a grumpy greedy fat kid who wants more than reasonable thought and discussion.
 
 
EDIT: Did not see Carbine come in until I checked to see if my post when up.
 
I also want to make clear that I understand that Devs do not necessarily have a lot of say in financial matters such as CREDD, but often the money guy will crunch numbers and see where "free money" can be found (being extra money over and above current subs) and expiring gift cards are a long time money making business.
 
I really feel that expiring CREDD shows uncaring towards players and treats them more like $$ than valuable assets of the game. While I find this one thing Carbine does unethical, I still play because I like it... however, because of my personal feelings it makes me less likely to give Carbine, as a company as a whole, the benefit of the doubt on other things simply because of their basic business practices.
 
I do know, however, that some of the Devs hold a much different standard and have much different feelings towards us, as players... Otherwise you wouldn't bother coming in and sharing your feelings, concerns, etc. This is also a reason why I am still a player.
 
So, in long, Thank you for posting about CREDD. I hope that your personal feelings about extending or lifting the expiration date of CREDD are heard because in the MMO game, getting and retaining players is not easy... and having a CREDD sitting on an account may mean free money to you today or it could mean returning players and a brighter future of the game. I am sure the Marketing guys could target CREDD holders with emails when new stuff happens.	
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Do you just not think that "we want people to either support our business by paying money or by playing the game on a regular basis" is a good reason?
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That's EXACTLY why the 12 CREDD limit exists, so it's a non issue.
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Do you just not think that "we want people to either support our business by paying money or by playing the game on a regular basis" is a good reason?
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Just a heads up in case no one has corrected this misconception: the 12-CREDD limit is either:
 
1) A myth (based on what Carbine's site says)
or
2) Applies ONLY to CREDD purchased by you with real money.
 
I am here to tell you that my peak of 74 CREDD exceeded 12 by a significant margin. All purchased using in-game money, not real money (hence the possibility of #2 above).
 
I currently have 65 CREDD, so a limit has not been retroactively applied.
 
My suspicion is that account-bound CREDD has an unreachable limit, while unbound CREDD (which can only exist via gift or rmt purchase) may have a limit of 12.
 
The CREDD log definitely has a limit. Mine hasn't updated in months - after 40 or so entries it just stops recording.
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Except that you aren't buying plat from Carbine, of course they don't need players to farm plat for them to sell it but they don't sell it because that would screw with the economy which would make more people leave. However by selling tradable game time they are able to do multiple things: 
 
1. Get extra profit that they wouldn't otherwise have.
2. Help regulate the economy by supplying another gold sink.
3. Increase the games population by getting people that wouldn't normal pay for a subscription to play the game.
4. Bring in good publicity because players can earn they're subscription in game.
 
Without them they wouldn't get anything, you wouldn't spend extra money on game time when you can get it for cheaper, those with a lot of plat who don't care about cosmetics or housing have a reason to spend it keeping auction house prices from sky rocketing, the already low population would't be lower because those players wouldn't join the game to begin with without that method of playing. If they sold plat all they would get is backlash from players because it messes up the economy, so please stop trying to redefine CREDD just because you buy, it you are not consuming it by trading it for plat you are trading i there's a huge difference. 
 
@Rakaposhi
I've given several good reasons why they should remove the expiration date and so have others:
 
1. It comes off as a shady business move when the only people you tell there's an expiration date are the people buying it directly from Carbine, there is no in game tooltip about it the only reason I even knew about it was because I was planning on buying some for some extra plat but when I noticed that I decided I wouldn't because I didn't want to take someones plat when they have no knowledge they could potentially lose that investment, I don't care to deal in shady business.
 
2. There is no real difference in coming back in 1 month, 2 months, 3 months, or a year, they weren't playing those months so why not just make it expire when they go inactive? They've already stopped paying for the game. The only thing it changes is the chance that the player that bought that CREDD would be put off by the idea of it expiring so they either wont return or won't invest that lowers demand which lowers prices which lowers incentive to buy it in the first place so less profits for Carbine and less population for everyone.
 
3. They aren't coming back to the game for free they would be using $20 worth of game time they aren't playing multiple months off one piece of CREDD they are redeeming that game time that has been unused. A normal subscriber has to pay $15 to come back because they no longer have unused game time players with left over CREDD still have unused game time that was paid for, players with CREDD earned it so they should be allowed to use their game time whether they've been playing the whole time or not.
 
4. Allowing to use it to come back to the game when they actually want to play increase they're reason for returning for the game them coming back to discover that they left over game time they had vanished without them using it will just frustrate them and whatever they found interesting enough to come back for wont matter they won't pay anything after they feel robbed since game time that went unused was taken from them pushing more players from the game which isn't good for anyone.
 
5. You can live off CREDD for years without ever knowing about this expiration as long as you aren't currently visiting the forums on a regular basis. There are only 2 places where they inform anyone, one is nice and clear the other is put down in an faq on the bottom of the page not even put as a question but an answer to a seemingly unrelated question that most likely doesn't concern the person that would be buying CREDD as the page lays out the details and how it works very nicely way before you get to the faq, neither page which the person that will trade they're plat for will care to go to as they've probably learned about CREDD through the countless other sources such as the in game tutorial when it tells you about CREDD or Carbines interviews where they have explained their business model which all seem to over look that little detail without even the slightest mention of it.
 
CREDD expiring isn't a way to get players to come back to the game bug fixes, more engaging content, keeping players that left updated with good things that are happening to the game and allowing to use that unused paid in full game time will make players want to return who will most likely want to countinue the game if things have truly changed for the better rejuvenating a dying population, increasing the demand as there is reason for someone to buy more than one a month from another player as they don't know when they will quit increasing the price increasing players reason to buy more increasing Carbines wallet.	
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...of course they don't need players to farm plat for them to sell it but they don't sell it because that would screw with the economy... 
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You keep saying this as if it's fact. Do you have any proof that a game company injecting plat directly into the economy would be worse than the same game company injecting the same value into the economy indirectly through adjustments to the drop rate and drop quality?
 
I'd really be interested to know if someone's looked at this, and if so what the conclusion of it was.
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I've played a few games that have had tat system built in, they all closed down in less then a few years. In just about every mmo gold sellers are banned on sight to protect the economy from gold being generated out of no where. Also I found the interview where Carbine talks about this which shows why they are using it as a gold sink rather than just introducing gold into the game. Also in the same interview there is an interesting question followed by an interesting answer by Carbine:
 
"What happens to an account that the person goes away for a week and the come back and their account has expired, but they had C.R.E.D.D. on their account that they did not consume or they had money on their account and did not get a chance to.
 
You can cash your C.R.E.D.D. whether or not you are in the game or outside the game. You can always use your C.R.E.D.D. if you need to."
 
http://www.gamebreaker.tv/mmorpg/wildstar-payment-model-q-a-with-jeremy-gaffney/
 
And here is a nice little article that explains very well just why buying gold is bad for a game's economy:
 
http://casualstrolltomordor.com/2011/01/why-is-buying-gold-bad/
 
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I've played a few games that have had tat system built in, they all closed down in less then a few years. 
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What games was that? I only played EQ2 with this system and it works well and always have. Also it doesnt expire there, you can be gone for years and still have the Krono (CREDD here)
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IMHO, (outside of "I don't like it expiring") nobody has given any decent justification for CREDD not expiring, and yet there have been plenty of good arguments in favor of CREDD expiring, especially when you consider that it's a business decision.
 
In fact, from just a few posts up there is this:
 
Carbine want people to support their business by either paying money or by playing the game on a regular basis. CREDD must expire in order to encourage people to play regularly (be subbed for one month in four).
 
Making a post claiming that "nobody has given any decent justification for CREDD expiring" straight after a post that provides a decent justification for CREDD expiring is odd at best.
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Dude anyone who's ever bought CREDD already supported the game. A person who's bought 12 credd has essentially paid for a years worth of time. Think of them like game time cards if you will. Why can't a person choose when and how they want to spend it instead of being forced to use one every 3 months? If the game hasn't released new content, why should I be forced to waste a credd? 
 
 If there were no people to buy CREDD with plat, then there would be nobody who would buy CREDD with real money. Do you not see how important both kinds of people are? They're both supporting the game in their own way because one cannot exist with the other. Regardless of whether a person plays regularly or not, that person who bought 12 credd has supported the game for 12 months. It's no different from someone who has payed for a year sub, but doesn't ever play. Are you trying to say that person who paid for a year's sub isn't supporting the game?
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