Report 231

Report #231
Skillset: Totems Skill: Wolf
 Org: Nihilists Status: Rejected Aug 2009
Furies' Decision:
Going to table this til we look at fearaura.
Problem: Fearimmunity provided by wolf totem is a novice skill that renders
obselete both the powerful ascendant ability of fearaura and the city-wielded
cosmic power of fear, dreamweaver spook, or the fear enchant. This power wielded
by a majority of those in communes allows forestals to boast a natural advantage
in numbers as their ascendants and fear abilities work to thin groups, stop
timed instakills, create buffers in areas that need to be held in any combat
situation, and cause general disorder amoung group combat. These listed effects
of fear are the real effects of any fear attack and immunity to them is far
overpowered for any organization. Allowing two organizations out of four to
maximize off this powerful affliction creates unbalanced field for combat in
both numbers and passive defense against instakills, demense formation, and the
other situations previously listed that cannot be overcome as long as this
immunity remains in place.
Solution #1: Remove the fear immunity entirely. Scent is a powerful ability on
 its own and well worth the totem skill.
Solution #2: Exchange immunity for a flat resist rate that does not break as
 long as the totem is called on.
Solution #3: Replace fear immunity with another rubeus affliction such as
 loneliness (Wolves are pack animals so this seems plausible).
Player Comments:
---[Nienla on 7/27 @ 18:28 writes]:
Considering that Fearaura is in the process of being revised, Llandros was
already told to withdraw his envoy report on Wolf. Also, considering that there
is a dingbat artifact that gives Scent, Totems users do deserve a natural
advantage so I'm definitely opposing the 1st solution, or really any of these
solutions since Fearaura is getting changed.
---[Nienla on 7/27 @ 18:35 writes]:
Also to note, a bulk majority of us (myself included) would be willing to hear a
Rubeus buff more so than a Wolf nerf. The Wolf nerf has been beaten around
repeatedly and it's not being looked at while Ascendancy is in review, so if you
want to change your report to Rubeus, I'm suggesting the following: 'Rubeus's eq
time is shorter' OR 'Rubeus has a set amount of ticks before it fades, like
three.'
---[Sarrasri on 7/27 @ 18:37 writes]:
As already stated, ascendancy is going under review in which fearaura is going
to be looked at. This really is an unnecessary change, so I'm going to have to
say no to all the solutions.
---[Sarrasri on 7/27 @ 18:38 writes]:
As for a rubeus buff, you could also look into lowering the chance to fade.
---[Llandros on 7/27 @ 19:07 writes]:
Slight correction, my report was on fear aura and not wolf, it was accepted and
will be taken up in the ascendancy report. Wolf was not addressed. Any skills
that gives total immunity presents balance issues and were the reasons why
poison immunity and things like balancing were changed.
---[Nienla on 7/27 @ 23:33 writes]:
Poison Immunity actually hindering offenses with Warriors due to Senso immunity.
Wolf immune has nothing to do with hindering any sort of offense. The only thing
it blocks, and I suspect the only purpose of this report, is to give Thoro's an
edge with the communes with Fearaura. And no, Llandros, your report was Totems -
Wolf at first, and you were asked to change it. Please do not be dishonest when
it comes to your reports.
---[Nienla on 7/27 @ 23:42 writes]:
Also, I'd like to know how Wolf 'stops timed instakills', as noted in this
report. That is an issue with Fearaura and not Wolf. I also quote, 'Allowing two
orgs .. to maximize off this powerful affliction creates an unbalanced field for
combat in both numbers and -passive defense against instakills-. Again, that is
an issue with Fearaura since there is no instakill that is stopped by merely
having Wolf bonded. Demesnes also have nothing to do with Wolf. So I fail to see
the validity of many of the points raised in this report.
---[Xenthos on 7/27 @ 23:44 writes]:
I still see nothing at all about removing fear immunity from Harmony. Really,
fear immunity isn't the problem. Your issue is still with Fearaura, and always
has been.
---[Llandros on 7/28 @ 00:05 writes]:
Nienla, I have to take exception to your accusation of dishonesty. Fearaua was
the more accurate root of the issues I addressed in that report and provided the
best options for a positive resolution. I was never "asked to change it." If
someone else wants to take up wolf totem then I have nothing to do with that.
Aside from my general hesitation with immunity skills, I can honestly say weave
spook isn't a mainstay of Cacophony combat and I am quite ambivalent on this
issue.
---[Sidd on 7/28 @ 05:40 writes]:
I think solution two is the best of the three, removing fear immunity entirely
effectively reverses the situation to give the cities the advantage with rubeus,
a flat resistance rate and not complete immunity sounds reasonable to me
---[Romero on 7/28 @ 11:07 writes]:
I thank Sidd for not trying to divert the issue here and push what I am saying
off in some other strange direction. Fear is a common way to stop timed
instakills as it causes the target to run off and break their kill thus stopping
chasm, soulless, judge and several others. The reason that this is an effective
manner is that it forces movement without checking against size. Also for the
other reasons listed, I believe this balance issue needs to be changed. We
aren't just talking fearaura here. Cosmic users or the enchants can be used
repeatedly to attempt to move people from the group and cause disorder and an
imbalance in numbers, disorder and an imbalance which the communes are now
immune to. Rubeus does not need a buff, ineffective as it is against battling
afflictions, immunity such as this should not exist. Also, I did not know that
harmony provided an immunity but I believe there was/is a harmony report out
that could address that. If not, I could change the report from totems to fear
immunity in general. As was stated fear does -much- more than just 'move the
target' it gives a natural advantage of numbers, breaks timed instakills, gives
the caster breathing room to heal, and causes disorder and disorganization among
the fighters which requires skill and competence to maintain. The effects of
fear are far beyond a simple affliction and not having half the game feel the
effects is a serious imbalance.
---[Nienla on 7/28 @ 17:54 writes]:
Romero. The classes that have Wolf have -no- timed instakills, so that's
irrelevant to wolf.
---[Llandros on 7/28 @ 23:43 writes]:
I belive you are mistaken Nienla, there is a timed insta-kill in the pureblade
skill set available to two guilds that have access to totems
---[Nienla on 7/29 @ 00:02 writes]:
Right. There are a lot of Wolf Pureblade's running around that would make that a
viable reason to nerf wolf
---[Nienla on 7/29 @ 00:02 writes]:
Not to mention, he has HangedMan which is more viable than fear to stop someone
decapping
---[Zalandrus on 7/29 @ 01:52 writes]:
Harmony does have a skill for fear immunity: Lumuti, which is the second skill
of the set. Comparing anything to a Harmony skill (as Harmony is now) is
dangerous, however, because using Lumuti means taking up one of only three
mantras, whereas wolf can be bonded with all the other totems simultaneously. I
agree that absolute fear immunity is imbalancing. Solution 2 seems like a
sensible first step. Solutions 1 and 3 seem to be swinging the pendulum too far
the other way
---[Nienla on 7/29 @ 02:40 writes]:
Again. This report is already being reviewed with the Ascendancy report. Not
needed, not required.
---[Sidd on 7/29 @ 03:00 writes]:
I am reasonably sure that wolf is not an ascendant skill, that being given, fear
immuntity prevents some effective tools for cities to split up commune groups, I
don't understand why you guys keep trying to turn this back into a discussion
about fearaura when fearaura is only 1 of the fear things he is discussing.
Reducing wolf to like say 50% resist I think is reasonable and not imbalancing
at all. I think envoys need to stay more on topic, we all know fearaura is being
reviewed but they have other fear abilites to use against us as well, this seems
reasonable.
---[Romero on 7/29 @ 05:53 writes]:
Exactly agreeing with Sidd again on this again. I am discussing the effects of
fear and fear immunity and their effects on combat not fearaura. I think a flat
33% or 50% resist rate is more than fine. Probably 33% because I believe that is
related to other flat resists in the game. (Resilience?)
---[Romero on 7/29 @ 05:53 writes]:
Not that it should be related to your resilience skill, but I think that is a
cap for resist that skill, so using it as a reference.
---[Gregori on 7/29 @ 10:48 writes]:
Note that I am not disagreeing, or agreeing, with this change, but I do have to
take careful examination of the fact Romero has posted all month on other
reports, yet this one, a known hot topic from past reports, was dropped in at
the very last moment possible. I truly do question the motivation of envoys who
have been arguing other reports, but slip their own in at the 11th hour.
---[Romero on 7/29 @ 15:27 writes]:
It is for next session anyway, Grego. It won't get pushed in. I had it written
up but didn't have the last few days to be around so it was sadly past date. So
its got all of August to be ranted on. Of course I will be gone then for at
least two weeks, maybe three so I am just going to finalize ASAP.
---[Sidd on 7/30 @ 20:47 writes]:
I think 33% is too much, 50% is more than reasonable
---[Nejii on 8/2 @ 04:11 writes]:
Waste of time report as Xenthos and others have already covered. Leave wolf as
it is.
---[Llandros on 8/4 @ 19:47 writes]:
I agree with SIdd that a 50% fear resist would be reasonable
---[Xenthos on 8/6 @ 22:53 writes]:
Which I disagree with. The primary issue really is fearaura, which is being
addressed separately. Most of these comments are discussing fearaura or things
that aren't affected by Wolf (this comment on timed instakills), so... yeah. I
still don't see the point here.
---[Romero on 8/7 @ 11:31 writes]:
This report is not about fearaura, it is about fearimmunity which causes a heavy
inbalance in the game . Being affected by fear as has been said causes disorder
in group battles, breaks timed instakills , moves people locations they don't
wish to be, and makes holding a demense much easier, provides breathing room to
heal, and breaks down the group for easier defense/offense. Repeated use of the
cosmic ability of fear or the fear enchant is avaible to everyone and that is
the subject of this repor, to create these effects on the communal side of
battle is impossible due to the immunity in place meaning cities take all the
downsides of fear despite being able to cast it, but gain none of the benefits
due to communal immunity.
---[Nienla on 8/7 @ 16:57 writes]:
I believe I've established that 'breaking timed instakills' has nothing to do
with Wolf considering that that only Pureblade has an instakill and it is broken
by web. If you use Fear on someone using Decapitate, that's your fault. Cities
also have other skills available to them to break up groups, give them a
breather on offense, and so forth. Also, I dislike the fact that you're
referring this as 'communal immunity'. While 3/5 classes are immune, not every
single class in a Commune is immune. I have to again agree with the above that
Fearaura is the issue, not Fear in general.
---[Nienla on 8/7 @ 16:58 writes]:
Pardon, not fear immunity in general.
---[Xenthos on 8/7 @ 22:55 writes]:
No, Romero. The report is about fearaura, because the other imbalances
(including instakills, which you bring up yet again despite it really not being
an issue at all... the classes with wolf do not have instakills, excepting the
very few Pureblade Serenguard/Ebonguard). The only reason Wolf's immunity has
been brought up as an issue is because of Fearaura. Prior to Fearaura it -was
not an issue-. It was a great perk, sure, but as a game balance issue there was
no problem. Add in fearaura passively wrecking groups and suddenly it's a
massive issue that "must be addressed". The solution is to fix Fearaura (as is
already being done).
---[Xenthos on 8/7 @ 22:56 writes]:
Pardon, "do not have timed instakills that are interrupted by movement". As
clarification!
---[Ceren on 8/8 @ 03:07 writes]:
Fearaura is certainly related to this report (it gives fear, duh), but actually
I think the real reason why wolf has become a problem, so to speak, is a change
in perspective. Before the city/commune war people would be like, "so my fear
attacks work on 50% of my enemies, I guess I can live with that." Then suddenly
when you're fighting only communes it's like, "wtf, my fear attacks do nothing."
In that sense wolf has always been a problem (indeed, fear attacks have been
around and been important to combat [though I can see how someone who plays a
character with wolf wouldn't understand that] far longer than fearaura has
existed), it's just the change in perspective that makes it visible. And yes I'm
aware I'm talking like the whole commune gets fear immunity, because let's be
honest, monks/bards compose no where near 2/5 the real population of any nation.
---[Akui on 8/9 @ 18:45 writes]:
Having had wolf totem for some time, and now lacking it as a tracker, I will
attest that, even apart from fearaura, an immunity to fear is quite significant.
However, the degree to which it is significant, and thus the measure by which it
should be changed, if at all is not nearly as apparent. If fearaura is going to
be looked at with ascendance, we should avoid trying to push through a change to
wolf prior to, or simultaneously such a change. It may well be that fear
immunity in and of itself is too powerful, but basing the decision on the
current terrain of the game, when that terrain is going to change regarding
fearaura in the near future isn't probably the most prudent decision to make.
Fear and the immunity to it is hardly the end and be all of group breaking
skills, and this isn't an issue that we need to ram home immediately. While I
certainly will not object to the premise that it may need changing, I would ask
that we hold off the discussion until the dust settles on fearaura. Better to
wait and make a wise change when we have better information, than rush in and
sabotage our own efforts at balance by trying to juggle too many balls at once.
---[Nienla on 8/9 @ 19:04 writes]:
Akui essentially said what most of us have been saying all along. Wait until
Fearaura is changed to make a basis of an argument against Wolf, please.
---[Ceren on 8/10 @ 01:51 writes]:
Akui, you make a convincing and refreshingly level-headed argument, but I think
you're forgetting that most of us have been around long enough to remember what
the terrain was like before fearaura existed. I, for one, think wolf would still
be out of line even if fearaura was straight up deleted.
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