142131-add-discovery-petscostumes-to-cash-shop

== Content ==
			
Been grinding for the discovery costume parts and pet from Wilderrun for almost 4 straight days for now, The number of discovery points and their re-spawns for the size of the zone are absolutely horrible, which I know won't get changed because I am sure that is "working as intended" So why not just put the Discovery loot on the cash shop also, so I can stop grinding myself to death in this labyrinthine green hell just for a costume design and a monkey and get back to doing something fun?
I am sure I am not the only person that would pay to skip this.	
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As someone who has spent a decent amount of money on N coins and used all of them in Wildstar's cash shop, I respectfully disagree.
 
This is the stuff that ruins F2P games. There still needs to be cool things you earn in game specifically. The cash shop already has a lot of cool things that you can pay to get, but we need things like discoveries and other pets/mounts that are in game unlocks. as in, play the game and find things. This is a good design decision.
 
It needs to be a balance with future content where some cool items are cash shop and some cool items are in game (discoveries, world events, dungeon/adventure drops, whatever).
 
I will still buy cash shop things, because I can and like to support the game, but there needs to be a balance for a good f2p model.
			
				
	Edited October 10, 2015 by Kezra	
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			I like shiny things on the shop. I like shiny things found ingame. I prefer they don't overlap.	
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I fail to see how giving a choice "ruins F2P games"
If someone wants to waste 32 consecutive hours running around in cycles to get something for free rather then pay real money for it now let em, that sounds to me like you are giving players more choice. which the last time I checked is something consumers react favorably to.
Not that Carbine has not already been ridiculously charitable with content in this "relaunch" anyway. There is nearly nothing even remotely worth buying in the cash shop right now as is, mostly just recolours of things already in the game.
			
				
	Edited October 10, 2015 by BasiliskEye	
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One of the ways it "ruins" it is the fact that there is demand for the items. If you are lucky and find a duplicate, you can put it on the AH and make some coin. Likewise, if you don't want to run all over the place to find the item yourself, you can make some gold/plat and simply buy it from either the AH or another user in trade chat. If you put it in the cash shop, suddenly people just buy it. It removes yet another little marketplace between players. Maybe you don't care about that, but some people may enjoy being rare item traders. Some people may enjoy earning ingame gold toward a rare item they want but don't have time to find themselves.
 
These things may not "kill" a game but in my opinion it removes yet another layer of choice from a game, and in that sense, "ruins" it. So my advice to you is simply buy it using gold or plat from a user ingame. There's really no reason to put these items in the cash shop when ingame currency can be farmed and used to skip the grind you're saying you don't like.	
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@BasiliskEye (sorry... it's not letting me quote properly)
 
then there is a lot you don't understand about game design and why F2P games get such a bad rap.
 
This is not good for the longevity of the game. If all of your cool things are shop only (or also in the shop) why bother playing the game at all? Might as well just buy cool looking things and stand around the city. But then you lose a lot of players who feel like they are forced to spend money to get anything cool in the game. That means you only have those who are paying a ton that stay, and they will eventually leave due to lack of population. It's a circular problem.
 
Here is a great video on free to play stuff from a game design perspective:
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mhz9OXy86a0
 
Actually, you should watch all of Extra Credits videos on free 2 play. They are huge supporters of the model when done right.
 
edit to add:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXA559KNopI
Acutally this video does a way better job at addressing specifically what I'm talking about
			
				
	Edited October 10, 2015 by Kezra	
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			They already skirt this line with the lockboxes at the end of dungeons. No need to push it clear over the edge. Things are fine as they are now.	
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In regards to lockboxes (just want clarification, because this is how I understand that they work) they only have a chance to give you gear from the dungeon they are in, correct? Or is there something else you can get from them?
 
Also, I agree that they skirt the line either way. I haven't bought any of the keys myself because it feels weird.
			
				
	Edited October 10, 2015 by Kezra	
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that sounds to me like you are giving players more choice
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I like shiny things on the shop. I like shiny things found ingame. I prefer they don't overlap.
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			One of my favorite things to do as a casual player is farm/grind for items that I want to build collections. I also like to buy things in shops but I would not want to see items from in game there. Ofc I would not be FORCED to buy them, but it takes away some of the enjoyment of working towards something when you know people can just buy it in a store. If I get sick of farming for something I would work towards making enough money in game to buy that last pet or costume piece from the auction house instead. Right now I personally only buy fortune coins, they would have to put a truly amazing and unique item in the store for me to want to buy it directly. Maybe a cool hoverboard with more neutral colors...	
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@BasiliskEye (sorry... it's not letting me quote properly)
 
then there is a lot you don't understand about game design and why F2P games get such a bad rap.
 
This is not good for the longevity of the game. If all of your cool things are shop only (or also in the shop) why bother playing the game at all? Might as well just buy cool looking things and stand around the city. But then you lose a lot of players who feel like they are forced to spend money to get anything cool in the game. That means you only have those who are paying a ton that stay, and they will eventually leave due to lack of population. It's a circular problem.
 
Here is a great video on free to play stuff from a game design perspective:
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mhz9OXy86a0
 
Actually, you should watch all of Extra Credits videos on free 2 play. They are huge supporters of the model when done right.
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Yeah, guess we need to just agree to disagree.
 
The big fear is driving away free players, who we need to support the population of the game.
 
I'm not disagreeing that discoveries can be hard to come by, but that is intentional. Sometimes RNGesus loves you, sometimes not.
 
Hell even madam faye is all about RNG, some people got mounts easily others have thrown lots of money into that slot machine to no avail. Same concept, but for one tries require money and for the other tries just require time out in the world.	
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I regularly watch Extra Credits, (even if I don't agree with some of the unrealistically idealized crap the spout from their ivory tower)  I am also a real life merchant, as well as someone that has played the market game in various MMOs for a good 15 years.
I already know how markets react to changes both in the real world and in MMORPGs. and I already know know from comparisons with other games economies, you could put every costume skin in this game on the cash shop and it would do little to the platinum value of those items SO LONG AS the cash shop version is soulbound on purchase, because for every one person actually willing to pony up real world currency to pretty up their virtual paper doll, there are still 100 people that will never spend real money on such things but will still want them if they can get them for free some how, and even people that might pay, can still decide to attempt to get them for free, I know this because I have seen it.
 
It's pretty clear I am not in the "popular opinion" here, so i will not sit and argue with anyone on this topic as anything related to ADDING anything to cash shops seems to send people into a froth very easily.
But I challenge any of you to go to Wilderrun and try to farm Discovery points there and come back here and tell me you had fun.
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In regards to lockboxes (just want clarification, because this is how I understand that they work) they only have a chance to give you gear from the dungeon they are in, correct? Or is there something else you can get from them?
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			 Different features need to have their own place..  I completely disagree with OP cash shop should have their own unique items and the discoveries as well as boxes should have theirs.	
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Hey there! Popping in as the designer who stuck all those costumes and pets in the Discoveries.
 
We talked about this quite a bit as we were deciding what to do, and for the time being, we made these exclusively in-game. The costumes themselves are not soulbound, so if you don't want to farm them yourself, you're welcome to wait for others to list them on the AH. While it can be useful to have things both in-game and the store (like the Expert's Riding License, or some other things you'll see coming up), it's also a good idea to have some desirable things that can't be purchased in the store to stimulate people going out into the world, engaging in the content, and finding them. We do this with many bits of content (expeditions, dungeons, world bosses, etc.)
 
The pets are a bit of a different deal -- they are soulbound, but you cannot pick up more than one of them, so if you've already learned it and reveal another, that one's fair game for everyone else. This means that if you're out there trying to get the pet and one is revealed someone doesn't need, there's a good chance you can grab it.
 
Now I've looked at the numbers and they seem to be right along where we wanted them in many cases, but there's always room for improvement. I made sure to put in more Discoveries in Wilderrun before this went live, for example (the count was lower than most zones prior to my change) but we'll keep an eye on things and make improvements to the system as needed. :)	
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			Exactly the kind of thing I was hoping to hear Caydiem, thanks!	
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Thanks for popping in here Caydiem, really cool of you to give us some background.
 
I've already said my piece but, in case you read this I just want to reiterate, the current system is ideal for me (as far as somethings being shop and others being in game) so I hope that continues in the future.
			
				
	Edited October 10, 2015 by Kezra	
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Put me in the camp of people that prefer cash shop and in game found items to be "mostly" separate.
 
Mostly because I think it is fair game to add event items to the cash shop months after they are no longer in game, when / if such things occur.
 
The cash shop should NEVER be used as a short cut around in game content - even cosmetic content.
 
I don't care if cash shop items become account or character bound on purchase - it still defeats the point of a segment of content, and the demand for those items.
 
However I think it IS fair to have game content be a side path to cash shop items, in small amounts.
The trick is differentiating these two - such as having a path, probably difficult or rare, for 'cash shop keys' to drop in game.
But this needs to be kept limited or it demotivates people from using the cash shop - and the cash shop is going to be what keeps the lights on around here in the future...	
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Now I've looked at the numbers and they seem to be right along where we wanted them in many cases, but there's always room for improvement. I made sure to put in more Discoveries in Wilderrun before this went live, for example (the count was lower than most zones prior to my change) but we'll keep an eye on things and make improvements to the system as needed. :)
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The problem is rare things are fun.
 
Look at the MMO giant, World of Warcraft. Do you know how many YEARS people farm for rare mounts in the game? Is it frustrating? Yes, do some people quit early from their farming? Of course.
 
But the satisfaction when you get it is awesome! Plus since it's only cosmetic it's not a big deal. There are other cool things in the game you can use as mounts/costumes/whatever.
 
I am pro rare things in a game as long as gearing up is easy and as long as there are not too many rare cosmetics to drive you crazy.
 
But a few rare collectibles/cosmetics? Fine, and fun. Hunting for rare items is a part of mmos and it is a piece I would be sad to see go.
 
(I know we disagree fundamentally on this Basilisk, just giving my .02)	
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I was not actually expecting a dev to directly respond to this, but this does bring up my ultimate beef with this situation.
Cadyiem, you designed this, but as a busy person it is reasonable to assume you didn't test it yourself. You have people for that, you have a great many things to work on and I am sure the last thing you would want to do when you have time off is waste time playing the game the way some of your customers play it. That is to say other activities besides questing and raiding, the things that keep the hardcore players around.
I find it very hard to imagine a developer say for example obsessing over procuring dye colours or pets because though quite a few of your players rabidly collect them, they offer nothing mechanical to the game itself. when you are the man behind the curtain there is obviously no impetus to care about these things.
 
I am the kind of person that never asks someone else to do something I would not be willing to do myself.
But seeing as I am going to continue grinding this damn thing, I would ask you to personally try and do it too sometime, no matter how pointless, and asinine you probably think it is.
The place is Wilderrun, the goal is the Savage Harness, one of the most overpriced items on the entire auction house due to how frustrating it is to acquire.
play this Skinner box you created without any dev god mods on a live server with other people trying to do the same and see if the experience is "right along where you want it."
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Ah, see, that's where you're wrong, my friend. After implementing it, I personally spent hours of my off-time collecting the pieces myself. When it went up on the CBT, I spent a good deal of my testing time -- several days -- dedicated to going to the various zones and hitting up the discoveries. I collected most of the costumes and even gave some of my duplicates away to the testers who I knew were into collecting costumes.
 
When you design anything, it's a good idea to play it as players will. When I test expeditions, I test as my favored class, sure, but I also test as other classes I'm less familiar with and in all bands of gear so I can get a feel for folks who are less familiar with the game than I am. The same held true for discoveries. When I implemented them I did a sped-up test at first to ensure functionality, sure, but afterward -- and particularly during CBT, where we were doing a great deal of iteration -- I went and found discoveries just as a player would with no developer advantages at all.
 
So with that stated, it is, indeed, right along where we wanted it to be, but I'm keeping an eye on feedback and the metrics and am not above adjusting things as needed. So do keep giving us feedback! I'm watching Wilderrun in particular, as its layout is not as conducive to farming these as others.
 
(And as a PS, I assure you there are many designers, like myself, who care a lot about things like costumes, dyes, and other such things. Remember that while we're designers, we're gamers, too -- and not all gamers are alike. I may have once been a raid leader, but I was always makin' myself look pretty regardless of the game. ;) )
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I've been doing discoveries every day since day 1 of the relaunch, and I have only found 2 pieces (shoulder/gloves) out of all the discovery nodes I've uncovered. Since then, 98% of the time I get the buff station, the other 2% of the time I get the rune crafting bag. I love the idea of discoveries offering these costumes, but honestly they are too rare, look how expensive they are on the Auction House and how few of the primary pieces are up there at all. I've spent hours and hours farming/searching for them and have very little to show for that time spent. When you combine the fact there are tons of other players farming them at the same time, the probability you will actually find one goes down significantly. I've even had a few instances where I got to a discovery node but there were mobs everywhere that swarmed me and someone came in and grabbed it while I was fighting the mobs lol...I understand it's "the nature of the game", but it's extremely frustrating. I personally put a great deal of value on my time in which I invest in the game, so when I have very little to show for it, it's very discouraging and I have very little motivation to keep trying at this point and hope the prices go down, because with the money sink this game has I highly doubt there will ever be a time I can comfortably afford 20-30 plat for a costume piece.
 
What's frustrating, too is that the pieces that are discoveries are all things you see NPC's wearing and are very characteristic of the races in the game. So like if you want the Draken's barbaric or savage sets for a Draken character you have to hunt for them for a million years to the point where you're really questioning if it is worth the time put in so I can completely see where the OP is coming from. Testing these things during CBT can't possibly be the same as the live version, because there were nowhere NEAR as many players in CBT to compete with. In fact, there were very few to virtually none at the times I did during CBT, so of course they came faster and seemed less rare. This is just my 2 cents on this subject, and it's something I've been thinking about frequently at this point.
 
 
I do have a question, though...Do the discovery nodes in both the starter zone version, and level 50 version of Crimson Badlands BOTH drop the costumes and the pets? Or do we need to specifically farm the level 50 versions of zones that have a starter version? 
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Ah, see, that's where you're wrong, my friend. After implementing it, I personally spent hours of my off-time collecting the pieces myself. When it went up on the CBT, I spent a good deal of my testing time -- several days -- dedicated to going to the various zones and hitting up the discoveries. I collected most of the costumes and even gave some of my duplicates away to the testers who I knew were into collecting costumes.
 
When you design anything, it's a good idea to play it as players will. When I test expeditions, I test as my favored class, sure, but I also test as other classes I'm less familiar with and in all bands of gear so I can get a feel for folks who are less familiar with the game than I am. The same held true for discoveries. When I implemented them I did a sped-up test at first to ensure functionality, sure, but afterward -- and particularly during CBT, where we were doing a great deal of iteration -- I went and found discoveries just as a player would with no developer advantages at all.
 
So with that stated, it is, indeed, right along where we wanted it to be, but I'm keeping an eye on feedback and the metrics and am not above adjusting things as needed. So do keep giving us feedback! I'm watching Wilderrun in particular, as its layout is not as conducive to farming these as others.
 
(And as a PS, I assure you there are many designers, like myself, who care a lot about things like costumes, dyes, and other such things. Remember that while we're designers, we're gamers, too -- and not all gamers are alike. I may have once been a raid leader, but I was always makin' myself look pretty regardless of the game. ;) )
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			At the very least, I wouldn't mind the pets being BoE instead, especially since their drop rate seems to be the lowest out of all the finds from discoveries.	
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I will start counting discoveries Caydiem, I have been in Wilderrun just doing discoveries for about 5 days and just have the feet. I figured on a one costume piece per 15 discoveries, but that number has past without a second piece.  It's also hard to find any with everyone crawling the place even at 3am just so they might get a 20+ plat costume piece. 
 
I think it might need a bit of an adjustment. 
			
				
	Edited October 10, 2015 by Arachnaas	
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I was not actually expecting a dev to directly respond to this, but this does bring up my ultimate beef with this situation.
Cadyiem, you designed this, but as a busy person it is reasonable to assume you didn't test it yourself. You have people for that, you have a great many things to work on and I am sure the last thing you would want to do when you have time off is waste time playing the game the way some of your customers play it. That is to say other activities besides questing and raiding, the things that keep the hardcore players around.
I find it very hard to imagine a developer say for example obsessing over procuring dye colours or pets because though quite a few of your players rabidly collect them, they offer nothing mechanical to the game itself. when you are the man behind the curtain there is obviously no impetus to care about these things.
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I spent an hour and a half skirting around Deradune today. Maybe a little bit less than that.
 
Other than the usual Buff Stations, I found:
 
Refugee's Chest Piece
Refugee's Gloves
Refugee's Boots
A pet Garr (alligator)
Six "Soldier's Packs" with low-level crap, including two styles (a chest, some boots) I hadn't previously seen
a secret Chua Lair
 
... and I've made a mental map of roughly 12-15 spawn points, so when I go back next time, I'll already have a starting point.
 
I can't say it's a PRODUCTIVE use of game time, but it's every bit as much mindless fun as (say) in-game fishing or mining.
 
Now, I realize that Deradune ain't no Wilderrun, but I'd say with dedicated searching and a good memory, hunting for Discoveries ain't as daunting as OP makes it sound - especially at 50 when you've out-leveled 90% of the mobs in the game.	
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I spent an hour and a half skirting around Deradune today. Maybe a little bit less than that.
 
Other than the usual Buff Stations, I found:
 
Refugee's Chest Piece
Refugee's Gloves
Refugee's Boots
A pet Garr (alligator)
Six "Soldier's Packs" with low-level crap, including two styles (a chest, some boots) I hadn't previously seen
a secret Chua Lair
 
... and I've made a mental map of roughly 12-15 spawn points, so when I go back next time, I'll already have a starting point.
 
I can't say it's a PRODUCTIVE use of game time, but it's every bit as much mindless fun as (say) in-game fishing or mining.
 
Now, I realize that Deradune ain't no Wilderrun, but I'd say with dedicated searching and a good memory, hunting for Discoveries ain't as daunting as OP makes it sound - especially at 50 when you've out-leveled 90% of the mobs in the game.
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I wish I was that lucky D: Maybe I am just really, really unlucky. 2 costume pieces after a few hours (almost) every day since relaunch :< I really want something that looks Draken-ish for my Draken alt!
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The Refugee set is not what I'd call "Draken-ish" ... it's more like "poor, busted-ass peon running for his life-ish."
 
 :lol:
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Hey there! Popping in as the designer who stuck all those costumes and pets in the Discoveries.
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As someone that is actively farming some of these costumes I love the fact that some stuff is only acquirable in game and I also understand the frustration cause I'm going through it. But there in lies the thrill of finally having it I reckon. :P
As for the AH price, I am sure that as more and more people obtain them the price should go down. Also.. Does the Space suit helmet exist? I never even seen it on the AH.
Either way. I like how it's working, maybe wouldn't hurt to buff the drop chance for costumes slightly, but so far so good.
 
My only issue with all this is that these are the only way so far to obtain Draken-looking gear (The Savage and Barbaric costume sets are what a lot of Draken npcs wear). The Draken have a very unique aesthetic when compared to the other races and always felt to me like regular gear looks odd on them. So for a Draken player wishing to look the part some serious platinum income or insane farming is required. So Carbine... Can we have easier to obtain (different from the discoveries costumes of course) Draken-looking costumes? Even if only on the cash shop. Please? Pretty please? Pretty please with sugar on top? I'll bake you a cake? :P
Cheers.
			
				
	Edited October 10, 2015 by SubSidal	
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Is there a link to the new looks? I thought I had one, but can't find it.
 
 
EDIT:  Found it!
http://imgur.com/a/K65zV
			
				
	Edited October 11, 2015 by TexArcana	
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I admit I may have been very presumptuous about Caydiem, and I apologize if I came off a rude. Though that still does not discredit the very real fact I have spent over 30 hours doing this now.
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Now, I realize that Deradune ain't no Wilderrun, but I'd say with dedicated searching and a good memory, hunting for Discoveries ain't as daunting as OP makes it sound - especially at 50 when you've out-leveled 90% of the mobs in the game.
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I just spent 30 minutes in Wilderrun. I timed it. Having never searched there before, I found (and mapped) five Discoveries - and that was with the zone crawling with levelers. 
 
Two were in the circular road area north of Sister's Watch. One was just north of Vitara's Refuge. One was north-east of the Silent Clearing. One was in Wilderrun Chase and one was near Blademother's Refuge. I also saw two "found" Discoveries in the form of buff stations already out in the open.
 
I found an Explorer's Pack, a Soldier's Pack and three Buff Stations.
 
I won't lie, it's a LOT harder than Deradune. Obviously I haven't put the butt-hours in out there that you have, and I didn't touch huge swatches of the map.
 
 
EDIT: I'm sorry. I shouldn't have been so snappy. I understand and sympathize with your frustration. 
			
				
	Edited October 11, 2015 by TexArcana	
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The pets are a bit of a different deal -- they are soulbound, but you cannot pick up more than one of them, so if you've already learned it and reveal another, that one's fair game for everyone else. This means that if you're out there trying to get the pet and one is revealed someone doesn't need, there's a good chance you can grab it.
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Crimson Isle doesn't have the costume/pet in their loot tables, nor do Northern Wilds or Levian Bay. You have to hit up the level 50 versions for them. The primary reason for this is that the opposite faction can't get to the 3-6 zones and the pets are unique to the zone, though we also wanted to start this at about 6 when you have more inventory space. We tend not to send people back to the 3-6 zones in general (note that resource nodes don't start appearing until 6-14, etc.)
 
Regarding the rest of your post, it's true that CBT didn't have nearly the numbers that live did, but I've been farming them on live also when I have the time. I'm also keeping a very close eye on the metrics, as I can see how many discoveries have been revealed vs. how many costume trunks have been revealed and such. We have no changes coming in the immediate future for this, but I'll watch feedback and numbers and will adjust things if need be.
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I was not actually expecting a dev to directly respond to this, but this does bring up my ultimate beef with this situation.
Cadyiem, you designed this, but as a busy person it is reasonable to assume you didn't test it yourself. You have people for that, you have a great many things to work on and I am sure the last thing you would want to do when you have time off is waste time playing the game the way some of your customers play it. That is to say other activities besides questing and raiding, the things that keep the hardcore players around.
I find it very hard to imagine a developer say for example obsessing over procuring dye colours or pets because though quite a few of your players rabidly collect them, they offer nothing mechanical to the game itself. when you are the man behind the curtain there is obviously no impetus to care about these things.
 
I am the kind of person that never asks someone else to do something I would not be willing to do myself.
But seeing as I am going to continue grinding this damn thing, I would ask you to personally try and do it too sometime, no matter how pointless, and asinine you probably think it is.
The place is Wilderrun, the goal is the Savage Harness, one of the most overpriced items on the entire auction house due to how frustrating it is to acquire.
play this Skinner box you created without any dev god mods on a live server with other people trying to do the same and see if the experience is "right along where you want it."
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Ah, see, that's where you're wrong, my friend. After implementing it, I personally spent hours of my off-time collecting the pieces myself. When it went up on the CBT, I spent a good deal of my testing time -- several days -- dedicated to going to the various zones and hitting up the discoveries. I collected most of the costumes and even gave some of my duplicates away to the testers who I knew were into collecting costumes.
 
When you design anything, it's a good idea to play it as players will. When I test expeditions, I test as my favored class, sure, but I also test as other classes I'm less familiar with and in all bands of gear so I can get a feel for folks who are less familiar with the game than I am. The same held true for discoveries. When I implemented them I did a sped-up test at first to ensure functionality, sure, but afterward -- and particularly during CBT, where we were doing a great deal of iteration -- I went and found discoveries just as a player would with no developer advantages at all.
 
So with that stated, it is, indeed, right along where we wanted it to be, but I'm keeping an eye on feedback and the metrics and am not above adjusting things as needed. So do keep giving us feedback! I'm watching Wilderrun in particular, as its layout is not as conducive to farming these as others.
 
(And as a PS, I assure you there are many designers, like myself, who care a lot about things like costumes, dyes, and other such things. Remember that while we're designers, we're gamers, too -- and not all gamers are alike. I may have once been a raid leader, but I was always makin' myself look pretty regardless of the game. ;) )
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