107953-the-nexus-report-nerfing-the-attunement-page-6

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Good. Companies should cater to their clients. Period.
 
The only other option is to flounder and fail.
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The world bosses, at the very least, are the first time your team is going to come together as a whole, so I consider that an important pre-raid requirement and step.
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Heh. There are thousands of people, if not tens of thousands, unhappy wit this change because it represents a philosophical divergence for WildStar.
 
This change just kicks the can down the road, to the next battle cry for accessibility. And now the indicator is that Carbine will cave at that point to save the players then as well.
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Explain to me how the attunement currently measures anything having to do with raiding. Is it not just a time synch? I need 32 K dominion rep that's gonna take some time, world bosses some time, adventures etc etc. These are just things to do. How are these measures of skill?
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Obviously you did.
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Finally the devs are talking to us on their own forums!!
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This is a good step forward and a needed change. Carbine is making a sensible decision. Kinda sad the attunement as we know it made it through release though, but I guess it's never too late to make amends. Let's keep those much needed changes coming Carbine (PvP, server population, gear progression for the non raiders, itemization, improved dailies etc.).
 
Despite what is being said by some hardcore players, this decision is very healthy for the state of the game and will not lead to the raids difficulty being toned down. The devs have again taken a firm stand agaisnt it. 	
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2 months old and they nerf the hardcore.. 
bad news!! baaaaaaaaaad news... 
 
DISLIKE THIS NERF!!!!	
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People are pugging world bosses. There's a world boss circle on my server. Let's just be real can we please just remove the attunement system and create LFR in the next drop. That's really what all this is about, lol.
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			I wholeheartedly agree that attunement at this point should get rid of all the grinding/gathering stuff and only consist of challenges you can only do with a larger coordinated crew of guildmembers.	
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There are more of us then there are of you. Suck it up. We will awlays win. It's time you got it through your Skulls. Go Play DarkFall or EVE or that other super successful hardcore game. Ehehehehehhehheh
 
 
Clearly this is what you want to hear.
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Me playing in the park with friends doesn't ruin your Monday Night Football.
 
-also-
 
If you want to _require_ premade teams to run content then you need to offer incentives accordingly.  NFL players draw a (large) salary, so of course they'll play as a team, of course they'll help their teammates, of course they'll run practice drills as many times as they need to.
 
Without that incentive, you end up where Wildstar is now - people don't want to run the content over and over to with newer members of the guild through the attunement.  You might say they have the wrong guild, but how's someone who's not even attuned going to get into a "hardcore" guild?  it's Catch22.
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Customers don't know what they want. That's the fact. And if you have the confidence and process of say, an Apple, you know what consumers want well before they do.
 
Listening and reacting to loud-mouthed feedback makes you... what Microsoft is. Which is a collection of terrible products fading out of relevance.
 
You have to be an architect. You have to have a vision and see it through. Otherwise you're just a pan-handler, doing whatever it takes to get a coin in your cup.
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I wholeheartedly agree that attunement at this point should get rid of all the grinding/gathering stuff and only consist of challenges you can only do with a larger coordinated crew of guildmembers.
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Customers don't know what they want. That's the fact. And if you have the confidence and process of say, an Apple, you know what consumers want well before they do.
 
Listening and reacting to loud-mouthed feedback makes you... what Microsoft is. Which is a collection of terrible products fading out of relevance.
 
You have to be an architect. You have to have a vision and see it through. Otherwise you're just a pan-handler, doing whatever it takes to get a coin in your cup.
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It's on a correction course, right now!
 
And thank all the gods of Nexus that people like you aren't making the calls.
 
What really makes me laugh, is the defense of this terrible system. If Carbine had never put those gates in the first place (as they shouldn't have), then you'd think everything was hunky-dory. It's only because they made a poor choice that you happened to get through despite how poor that choice was ... that you feel compelled to defend it. It's like some kind of twisted Stockholm Syndrome, where you've been traumatized so much by the system, you are trapped in a mind-set to take up for it. "Oh, sure, it was awful, but he's a really nice guy once you get to know him!"
 
The current model sucks. It's terrible for players and the community as a whole. With the possible exception of a couple of loud, discordant voices, this is a change the vast majority of folks are getting behind. As well they should. Because now it means people will be able to progress at a semi-decent rate without running into the spiky, tigery, fiery wall of fail that is the current attunement process..
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They're all bits of the same things.  Getting faction rep is generally done through running regular dungeons and adventures until you're set.  Then you have to complete adventures and dungeons, which will take no small amount of PVE skill upgrades (as, let's not kid ourselves, bronze might yet still be too much to be completed by some people), world bosses force you to work on some kind of organization and get you used to working with 20, rather than 5, people.
 
People are being checked.  The reason the overall timers came down for attunement was because it's not checking a PVE raid skill.  Raids have enrage timers, but not overall timers.  They could stand to go because they were doing worse than maybe being inadequate, they were literally training you to do the wrong thing (skip content and run to the end as fast as possible).
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I'd like to keep the discussion going with alternatives to this change before it goes live.
 
The best idea so far, which address the ubiquitous "timers don't reflect skill" is to simply remove the timers from the medal runs, but still require Silver (or better, Gold) for attunement completion.
 
This assures players are playing with skill and not cheesing anything because of a time-limit.
 
More thoughts welcome. I don't see how anyone could argue against this unless they don't actually want skill to play a factor.	
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There are more of us then there are of you. Suck it up. We will always win. It's time you got it through your Skulls. Go Play DarkFall or EVE or that other super successful hardcore game. Ehehehehehhehheh
 
 
Clearly this is what you want to hear.
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Actually, kind of that's why its called a massive multiplayer online game. There are other people there to enrich the quality of the play with, now get this, others. Incidentally, the path class system created by WS kinda functions on that principle, settlers building all that stuff to make your leveling easier etc even taxi hubs and exp bonus stations as well as vendors. Very barren if a player is not doing that. Explorer's revealing speed flags etc. So yeah in a way other players are there to improve your gaming experience. ;) But again like I keep asking if you're guild is not helping you and we can already see from this forum post there all lost looking for attunement and groups, supposedly, why do you stay?
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So just curious...
 
Since timers are no longer a part of the attunement soon. Would people be against beefing up the content itself a bit more?
 
Like I think a few bosses need hard enrages added ontop of their soft enrages. From what I've seen so far(I haven't been in groups that leave bosses up too long) the bosses only have soft enrages at most so far in veteran content where you can still kill them, but with a slight difficulty boost for not meeting a certain threshold of damage per second as example. I haven't encountered any "hey you missed that interrupt! BOOM WIPE!" yet...or seen it...	
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My guild does do runs together. We aren't always on the same schedule, though. Consequently we're on various stages of the attunement. I have no doubt there are other guilds in the same situation.
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Then should they have challenges that are like defeat aetheros in x amount of time for dungeons then count towards a bronze or whatever? To be fair though I'm done with the time argument. I see the whole thing as illusory and a waste of time, really they should just remove attunement. You mentioned world bosses but world bosses are already being pugged, there are world boss circles. You mentioned the rep grind. No one has ever liked rep grinds and you can get that just doing dailies and all the quest you passed up while going to 50 you don't need to run dungeons. At this point it is a useless time sync that serves no purpose. Call it what it is, a broken and unnecessary component to the game. If this is the direction we're headed it serves no legitimate purpose but to waste players time. And that was at the central issue of this original argument, player time. The attunement needs to be removed.
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Thank you. I think at this point with this direction it should be done a way with completely honestly. I think you shoudl be able to hit 50 and you can start raiding immediately, with this current direction we're heading in. It just makes logical sense.
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I'd like to keep the discussion going with alternatives to this change before it goes live.
 
The best idea so far, which address the ubiquitous "timers don't reflect skill" is to simply remove the timers from the medal runs, but still require Silver (or better, Gold) for attunement completion.
 
This assures players are playing with skill and not cheesing anything because of a time-limit.
 
More thoughts welcome. I don't see how anyone could argue against this unless they don't actually want skill to play a factor.
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If all people have to do is complain that something is too hard to see it nerfed - what's going to happen to the raid content when those players, who couldn't finish attunement until this nerf, hit the wall in GA? Will content be nerfed then?
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			Hey guys, once more stepping in here - gotta knock off the personal insults please if you want the conversation to keep going. 	
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Customers don't know what they want. That's the fact. And if you have the confidence and process of say, an Apple, you know what consumers want well before they do.
 
Listening and reacting to loud-mouthed feedback makes you... what Microsoft is. Which is a collection of terrible products fading out of relevance.
 
You have to be an architect. You have to have a vision and see it through. Otherwise you're just a pan-handler, doing whatever it takes to get a coin in your cup.
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I'd like to keep the discussion going with alternatives to this change before it goes live.
 
The best idea so far, which address the ubiquitous "timers don't reflect skill" is to simply remove the timers from the medal runs, but still require Silver (or better, Gold) for attunement completion.
 
This assures players are playing with skill and not cheesing anything because of a time-limit.
 
More thoughts welcome. I don't see how anyone could argue against this unless they don't actually want skill to play a factor.
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So just curious...
 
Since timers are no longer a part of the attunement soon. Would people be against beefing up the content itself a bit more?
 
Like I think a few bosses need hard enrages added ontop of their soft enrages. From what I've seen so far(I haven't been in groups that leave bosses up too long) the bosses only have soft enrages at most so far in veteran content where you can still kill them, but with a slight difficulty boost for not meeting a certain threshold of damage per second as example. I haven't encountered any "hey you missed that interrupt! BOOM WIPE!" yet...or seen it...
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			Like already mentioned by the nature of mmos and the addition of new gear/weapons previous content will always get easier. Even without any interference by the developer.	
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So just curious...
 
Since timers are no longer a part of the attunement soon. Would people be against beefing up the content itself a bit more?
 
Like I think a few bosses need hard enrages added ontop of their soft enrages. From what I've seen so far(I haven't been in groups that leave bosses up too long) the bosses only have soft enrages at most so far in veteran content where you can still kill them, but with a slight difficulty boost for not meeting a certain threshold of damage per second as example. I haven't encountered any "hey you missed that interrupt! BOOM WIPE!" yet...or seen it...
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Customers don't know what they want. That's the fact. And if you have the confidence and process of say, an Apple, you know what consumers want well before they do.
 
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Because paying for silver dungeons, abusing stun exploits on bosses and using ability exploits to cheese encounters isn't cheesing because it's within a time limit right?
 
Your suggestion makes no sense as there is no difference between Silver and Bronze save time limit.
 
Bronze is the exact same thing you will encounter in a raid. Raids have unlimited time and enrage timers/mechanics with (optional challenges for more loot) on bosses which is the exact same thing you will have in a raid setting save it is more difficult.
 
Why does it matter?
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I think Carbine needs to step up and say something to prove to the players who bought the game based on their original philosophy that it still matters.
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Yep, this is another alternative. I think Carbine needs to step up and say something to prove to the players who bought the game based on their original philosophy that it still matters.
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Yep, this is another alternative. I think Carbine needs to step up and say something to prove to the players who bought the game based on their original philosophy that it still matters.
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I'd love to get some input from Brett or otherwise on the potential for a change pointing toward keeping skill in place as an attunement requirement, rather than removing it. As it stands now, the only real skill challenge of attunement will be removed. So what is left to help players be ready for raiding with their team?
 
This is where the idea of increasing the difficulty of the dungeons, or perhaps tweaking the medal runs to be based on accomplishments only not timers. Then, you can bump up the requirement back to Silver, or even Gold to show that player skill (individual AND team) is the requirement to pass to raiding.
 
If this isn't the belief, can we get a detail on what changed with your design philosophy and why?	
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Customers don't know what they want. That's the fact. And if you have the confidence and process of say, an Apple, you know what consumers want well before they do.
 
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The medal system will get an overhaul.
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So much wrong with this.
 
You actually are expected to beat the timer on the first or second try because as I've said in previous posts, not everyone is sitting kosher in a helpful guild or even in a guild. They're in a PUG for one reason or another (couldn't find enough guild members online that wanted to go, or even online, not enough friends online, limited time frame and their guild was already doing something else, whatever have you it was). Medal systems with the Loot Rating caused people to bail at the first sign of no Gold medal. Then they changed things so that it was a bail out if Silver wasn't going to be reached making the remaining 4 or less unable to complete if someone else zoned into the PUG and realized the same thing only to bail on them as well. Where's the chance of Bronze then? Most vote to disband and deal with the aftermath of failure that wasn't entirely their fault to begin with. It was the player who didn't even want to give them a chance to learn the fight or even try to be helpful other than yelling at them about what a failure they were because they made a mistake. Or several. Either way, it goes back to the harsh abuse people dole out on others because they're treating them like a means to an end, their end being finishing their attunement and moving onto raiding.
 
It's demoralizing to be in that situation.
 
It's depressing to not get a chance at all to try and learn a vet, which is very much different from a normal, when you haven't the time or people to go with. All this basis of "oh it's easy" is always centered from a prospective of having enough people to go with you to coast it or learn it.
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STORMTALON'S LAIR
Bronze: Complete everything tagged as (Optional)
Silver: Bronze + Under 30 minutes
Gold: Silver + all challenges + no deaths
KEL VORATH
Bronze: All (Optional)
Silver: Bronze + Under 40 minutes
Gold: Silver + all challenges + no deaths
SKULLCANO
Bronze: All (Optional)
Silver: Bronze + Under 45 minutes
Gold: Silver + all challenges + no deaths
SANCTUARY OF THE SWORDMAIDEN
Bronze: All (Optional)
Silver: Bronze + Under 75 minutes
Gold: Silver + all challenges + no deaths
 
 
 
 
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Lethality
Posted Today, 09:41 AM
I'd like to keep the discussion going with alternatives to this change before it goes live.
The best idea so far, which address the ubiquitous "timers don't reflect skill" is to simply remove the timers from the medal runs, but still require Silver (or better, Gold) for attunement completion.
This assures players are playing with skill and not cheesing anything because of a time-limit.
More thoughts welcome. I don't see how anyone could argue against this unless they don't actually want skill to play a factor. 
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Right, OK. To what end?
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I have no problem wiping as long as I don't have to start all over again. And the way things were you died once and people left.
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Hey guys, I think I've come up with a solution that will make everyone happy.
 
Raids should have Instance Timers so that the Instance Timers on Dungeons will relevant to Raiding.
 
 
Raids should completely reset daily and only give enough time to be able to do 10 minutes per boss assuming that everything goes perfectly smooth and there is absolutely no downtime inbetween bosses. (Maybe give 30 seconds for setup per boss as well)
 
If you can't make the timer you can still try to kill the bosses for that day but the loot will be dramatically reduced in quality (Greens and Blues with no chance of epics)	
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Oh no, of course and I agree completely. I'm just thinking of moving forward that I felt that if one thing was missing from veteran content it was the lack of hard enrages which are present in raids. I'd like to think of ways to better "prepare for raids" at this point.
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If You remove the timers what makes this any different than Bronze?
 
I understand your points and most of time, on most subjects, I am in agreement with things you say. Except this time, but what is the difference with removing timers and still require silver? That still = a bronze? Or am I missing something.....
 
If you remove the timers it would be more realistic to really go gold  no timers no deaths....thus I still disagree with till all the bugs in healing are worked out  and glitches.
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Casuals are ruining the game... They whined about the attunement and they got it. I really belive there will be a plenty of topics like "NERF KURALAK WTF CANT KILL TOO MANY EGGZZZ" in future. It is the first call. So the game wont be better than WoW after all nerfs. Please keep casuals away from raid content, just separate casual and hardcore content. I still have hopes this wont happen but I doubt it
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Correct, the medals would have to get a tweak as to how they are earned to be based on achievement and no longer time.
 
So, maybe:
Bronze - All optional requirements (stays the same)
Silver - Bronze + no deaths
Gold - Silver + no deaths and all challenges
So then they could go back to requiring silver which at least is a measure of team and individual skill.
 
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So what is left to help players be ready for raiding with their team?
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Require silver runs before you raid?
 
Just because the game doesn't enforce it doesn't mean that guilds can't.
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Correct, the medals would have to get a tweak as to how they are earned to be based on achievement and no longer time.
 
So, maybe:
Bronze - All optional requirements (stays the same)
Silver - Bronze + no deaths
Gold - Silver + no deaths and all challenges
So then they could go back to requiring silver which at least is a measure of team and individual skill.
 
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Correct, the medals would have to get a tweak as to how they are earned to be based on achievement and no longer time.
 So, maybe:
Bronze - All optional requirements (stays the same)
Silver - Bronze + no deaths
Gold - Silver + no deaths and all challenges
So then they could go back to requiring silver which at least is a measure of team and individual skill.
 
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Here is my opinion.
 
Veteran Dungeon Queue for Dominion.   WTF?  Kid you not, I sit in this thing for hours upon hours as solo DPS and even still as Healer unless I queue during primetime, and then it's only like an hour instead.
 
Also, could care less if they keep or leave the timers as long as they do not make the content easier.   Fact is, groups of people are 4-manning the dungeon silver content and `selling runs` already for all 4 dungeons.  The 'skill check' has already been bypassed, so there's no point in keeping the timer segment as far as that reasoning goes.  Outside of sold runs, others are simply being carried.    Is there any other reasoning out there for keeping these timers after those two facts are brought to light?
 
Either way, getting silver and gold in dungeons is still rewarded with loot and you still need silver and gold for elder gem purchase unlocks.	
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Why you keep going back to your "No death" concept when everyone already pointed out that "No death" is even worse than having a "timer" in it...
 
Are you nuts?
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Require silver runs before you raid?
 
Just because the game doesn't enforce it doesn't mean that guilds can't.
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Why you keep going back to your "No death" concept when everyone already pointed out that "No death" is even worse than having a "timer" in it...
 
Are you nuts?
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Require silver runs before you raid?
 
Just because the game doesn't enforce it doesn't mean that guilds can't.
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It's worse because it requires more skill you mean? Yeah, the player base talks a big talk but when it comes time for performance...
 
Then swap the achievements around with the deaths.
 
Bronze - All optional stuff
Silver - Bronze + all achieements
Gold - Silver + no deaths
Easy peasy.
 
 
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This is a possibility I would not be against entirely but still ify about ....once they fix those damn healing bugs. I could only imagine the forum rage if someone died in the run due to a heal bug or one of the various other bugs that love to pop up right at the end of a gold run and ruin the chance.
 
Once they get the game a bit more evened out and the major bugs fixed ( I feel healing ones are terrible right now and not fixed )  I would be behind that idea as an alternative possibly . ( as of yesterday the heal bugs are still being reported)
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Why you keep going back to your "No death" concept when everyone already pointed out that "No death" is even worse than having a "timer" in it...
 
Are you nuts?
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This has been brought up several times. He doesn't seem to care that there is already a mechanism in place to allow him to keep his recruiting requirements just as hardcore as they ever were. I guess he really likes timers for some reason.
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It's worse because it requires more skill you mean? Yeah, the player base talks a big talk but when it comes time for performance...
 
Then swap the achievements around with the deaths.
 
Bronze - All optional stuff
Silver - Bronze + all achieements
Gold - Silver + no deaths
Easy peasy.
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No deaths on silver would be proposing and creating a new "Gold or bust" syndrome.
 
A no death component should only be on gold and should not be required by attunement and have it's own reward on it like a title for golding all dungeons (if that doesn't already exist).
 
I don't think having to finish challenges should be required by attunement. It's not required in raiding and while it does show skill, so does finishing the instance. 
 
Screen your applicants, problem solved.	
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What exactly do you mean by achievements on the silver part? Because if you mean actual acheivements then wouldn't silver and gold be the same in that sense as "immortal" is an achievement meaning you did the dungeon with no deaths?
 
Or do you mean Gold isno deaths, optionals, and a timer?
 
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But I really want Carbine to say and do something that addresses their decided turn in philosophy to make players believe that it still matters.
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People are ALWAYS going to cry for nerfs. It happened in FFXIV:ARR and that game was flippin easy. Assuming Carbine is going to cave based on past behavior of other games, though, isn't exactly fair.
 
Removing this timer wasn't a direct content nerf. They've stayed true to their mantra.	
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It's not really that hard to understand Carbine's decision here.
 
More people get to experience the content = more people staying, even if it means a non-stop wipefest in GA.
They can't cater to the 2000-3000 players that's currently raiding, not if they want to keep this game away from f2p.	
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More thoughts welcome. I don't see how anyone could argue against this unless they don't actually want skill to play a factor.
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Surely removing the timers makes it more fun and exciting, you should not have do things in under a set time.... at least that what my wife tells me.
 
I'm currently 4/4 silver awards for doing things quickly in r/l, but no Gold award from the wife for a long time.....	
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So there's no need for your 'alternative', as this change is PERFECT <3.
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 No timer. He is bringing up alternative solutions... like taking the timer out and adjusting the medals around the no timer stance.....Just other solution ideas
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No, I think there's definite room for improvement and I get the sense Carbine feels that way too. Hence, keeping the discussion open.
 
So far, the idea of a medal system tweak, and then a revision to require Silver again, seems to be the bests option.
 
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No, I think there's definite room for improvement and I get the sense Carbine feels that way too. Hence, keeping the discussion open.
 
So far, the idea of a medal system tweak, and then a revision to require Silver again, seems to be the bests option.
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It's not really that hard to understand Carbine's decision here.
 
More people get to experience the content = more people staying, even if it means a non-stop wipefest in GA.
They can't cater to the 2000-3000 players that's currently raiding, not if they want to keep this game away from f2p.
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No, I think there's definite room for improvement and I get the sense Carbine feels that way too. Hence, keeping the discussion open.
 
So far, the idea of a medal system tweak, and then a revision to require Silver again, seems to be the bests option.
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			For what it's worth, my guild is still pushing to get through the Silver Dungeons before this change happens because we feel it will make us better players but I firmly believe this change is in the best interest of the game.	
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If that's the only consideration, then it's difficult to see why they wouldn't make GA easier when you get a "no-stop wipefest".
 
A more hopeful view is that more people were held up by attunment than intended.
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Your raiding guilds struggle to keep and field 20 man teams, let alone 40. You need a bigger pool of players if you want the raiding scene to survive.
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If that's the only consideration, then it's difficult to see why they wouldn't make GA easier when you get a "no-stop wipefest".
 
A more hopeful view is that more people were held up by attunment than intended.
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			Hilarious...this is nothing. Its a band aid over a sucking chest wound. Not going to bring anyone back, not gonna bring in new players the game is bleeding out, servers are empty (with a few exceptions) and with no strong IP (*cough* SWTOR) as a hook and a shrinking window of opportunity to fix things the immediate future is looking rough. Which is sad because I think the game had a lot of potential (art, music animations, combat, zones all awesome) but there was wayyy too much "rose colored glasses" nostalgia for a glorious gaming past that only a few people missed.	
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Hilarious...this is nothing. Its a band aid over a sucking chest wound. Not going to bring anyone back, not gonna bring in new players the game is bleeding out, servers are empty (with a few exceptions) and with no strong IP (*cough* SWTOR) as a hook and a shrinking window of opportunity to fix things the immediate future is looking rough. Which is sad because I think the game had a lot of potential (art, music animations, combat, zones all awesome) but there was wayyy too much "rose colored glasses" nostalgia for a glorious gaming past that only a few people missed.
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			I don't think this change is intended as a marketing campaign to bring people back. It is more of a quality of life and accessibility improvement aimed at keeping the players that are here and generally improving the game. 	
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I don't think this change is intended as a marketing campaign to bring people back. It is more of a quality of life and accessibility improvement aimed at keeping the players that are here and generally improving the game. 
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This makes me really disapointed, really.
 
And stop the ramblings about "Removing timer content is still as difficult bla bla"
 
My grandmother couldnt get attuned before. Now she can.
 
Congrats whiners, if the changes go trough the game will be a joke of its former self.(And yeah, im likely gonna cancel my sub from this)	
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This makes me really disapointed, really.
 
And stop the ramblings about "Removing timer content is still as difficult bla bla"
 
My grandmother couldnt get attuned before. Now she can.
 
Congrats whiners, if the changes go trough the game will be a joke of its former self.(And yeah, im likely gonna cancel my sub from this)
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
 
Congrats whiners, if the changes go trough the game will be a joke of its former self.(And yeah, im likely gonna cancel my sub from this)
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This makes me really disapointed, really.
 
And stop the ramblings about "Removing timer content is still as difficult bla bla"
 
My grandmother couldnt get attuned before. Now she can.
 
Congrats whiners, if the changes go trough the game will be a joke of its former self.(And yeah, im likely gonna cancel my sub from this)
----
			All your granny had to do before was pay some plat to a guild offering silver runs and she could be too..... now she can do it on her own.....good for her I wished my nanna would play.	
----
			But can granny afford all that plat on her retirement?	
----
			At the people fighting this. Why do you continue to gloss over the fact that the dungeons are already more difficult than pretty much every game on the market? Why do we need timers on top of that? Also why do you continue to pretend that only bads wanted to we the attunement softened Are we going to pretend that a Enigma member didn't make a post asking for a change? Your continued pretentiousness is why I am certain that these changes will move forward undeterred. You aren't even being honest. Just arguing to argue against logic.	
----
			
Point A: The goal of the attunement process is to make sure you're ready for the raids.
 
Point B: Raids are not timed.
 
Point C: Raid rewards are not affected by deaths or even wipes.
 
Now, if one of the above points is incorrect, please let me know.
 
If they are all three correct, then:
 
Conclusion: the part of dungeons that is relevant to attunement is the ability to overcome boss mechanics to complete the instance. The timed/no deaths part is irrelevant.	
----
			who would not lend plat to granny to by a run? not a nice grandchild  if that's the case lol	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The timed/no deaths part is irrelevant.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This makes me really disapointed, really.
 
And stop the ramblings about "Removing timer content is still as difficult bla bla"
 
My grandmother couldnt get attuned before. Now she can.
 
Congrats whiners, if the changes go trough the game will be a joke of its former self.(And yeah, im likely gonna cancel my sub from this)
 
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Point A: The goal of the attunement process is to make sure you're ready for the raids.
 
Point B: Raids are not timed.
 
Point C: Raid rewards are not affected by deaths or even wipes.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Point A: correct, but not really a point.
 
Point B: Every encounter has a timer on it in raids.  People keep calling it an enrage, but that is not what it is.  An enrage makes encounters more difficult and nearly impossible.  The mechanics on the encounters in raids are 1 shot mechanics after a certain point of time passes.  So yes, they are timed.  I mean, if you want dungeons to mimmick raids, we can add timers on every boss fight in the dungeons, and see how mad you guys are then.
 
Point C: Nope, but since they are much more difficult to learn and complete, they take far far farrrrrrrrrr longer to learn, and to do.  Especially since you can only kill each boss 1 time a week, preventing you from getting gear fast.
 
Your conclusion is null because your points were incorrect.
----
			
I'm currently in datascape.  Like a lot of others, I did the silvers, the world bosses, and paid my 300 primals.
 
I couldn't be happier about the changes.
 
1.  Regarding the "Its easier for the other guy, that's not fair" complaint:  so what?  It helps you as much as it helps them.  You need those new bodies for GA alternates and datascape.  It's not like you being DS attuned means that you're ready to clear DS.  You need to get the other 39 guys attuned, too.
 
2.  Regarding the "bronze doesn't take skill" complaint: I play a dps medic.  These days (in the golden age of the medic) I can join pugs and carry one or both of the other dpsers to silver, but when I was getting attuned, my guild had about 6 players who had the gear to take on silver ssm, and they carried the other 14 of us through.  Now we're all digital powerhouses and have killed ohmna.  Draw your own conclusions on how necessary that first silver dungeon clearing is.
 
3.  Regarding the "filthy casuals are going to be in GA" nonsense:  GOOD.  I hope they clear the whole thing and we finally get some more progression competition going on. 
 
 
I'm sure we're going to see a drop in the number of raiders running dungeons/adventures, but we'll probably see an increase in the number of alts doing the content now.  Personally, I like the world boss requirement, but I can see how it could be viewed as tedious.  If you could kill bosses during the rep grind or the silver requirement that might alleviate some of the problem.  Meh.  Who knows.  The changes are coming, the pool of players in raids is growing, and datascapes days are numbered.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Point A: correct, but not really a point.
 
Point B: Every encounter has a timer on it in raids.  People keep calling it an enrage, but that is not what it is.  An enrage makes encounters more difficult and nearly impossible.  The mechanics on the encounters in raids are 1 shot mechanics after a certain point of time passes.  So yes, they are timed.  I mean, if you want dungeons to mimmick raids, we can add timers on every boss fight in the dungeons, and see how mad you guys are then.  A full dungeon duration timer was MUCH more forgiving.
 
Point C: Nope, but since they are much more difficult to learn and complete, they take far far farrrrrrrrrr longer to learn, and to do.  Especially since you can only kill each boss 1 time a week, preventing you from getting gear fast like in dungeons.
 
Your conclusion is null because your points were incorrect.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You know what I meant about timers. Neither of the raids require you to complete the entire raid in a certain time.
 
Nothing you said contradicts Point C.
 
Therefore, unless someone has a better argument, my conclusion is still intact.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You know what I meant about timers. Neither of the raids require you to complete the entire raid in a certain time.
 
Nothing you said contradicts Point C.
 
Therefore, unless someone has a better argument, my conclusion is still intact.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Are you really equating a timer on one Boss to a timer for a full dungeon run?
 
Hilarious.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I did, considering the entirety of STL can be done in just a couple of minutes over the kill time of what Ohmna in GA is.  Think of the entirety of STL as one big boss event.
 
The other dungeons are longer ofc, but the timers are still leaps and bounds above lenient.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I'm currently in datascape.  Like a lot of others, I did the silvers, the world bosses, and paid my 300 primals.
 
I couldn't be happier about the changes.
 
1.  Regarding the "Its easier for the other guy, that's not fair" complaint:  so what?  It helps you as much as it helps them.  You need those new bodies for GA alternates and datascape.  It's not like you being DS attuned means that you're ready to clear DS.  You need to get the other 39 guys attuned, too.
 
2.  Regarding the "bronze doesn't take skill" complaint: I play a dps medic.  These days (in the golden age of the medic) I can join pugs and carry one or both of the other dpsers to silver, but when I was getting attuned, my guild had about 6 players who had the gear to take on silver ssm, and they carried the other 14 of us through.  Now we're all digital powerhouses and have killed ohmna.  Draw your own conclusions on how necessary that first silver dungeon clearing is.
 
3.  Regarding the "filthy casuals are going to be in GA" nonsense:  GOOD.  I hope they clear the whole thing and we finally get some more progression competition going on. 
 
 
I'm sure we're going to see a drop in the number of raiders running dungeons/adventures, but we'll probably see an increase in the number of alts doing the content now.  Personally, I like the world boss requirement, but I can see how it could be viewed as tedious.  If you could kill bosses during the rep grind or the silver requirement that might alleviate some of the problem.  Meh.  Who knows.  The changes are coming, the pool of players in raids is growing, and datascapes days are numbered.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
We're about to do a Boss, everyone ready? No, looks like Fred is AFK. OK, we'll wait to start. Oh there he is. Ready Check. Everyone good. Right, Go Go Go.
 
Dungeon - got to rush rush rush to beat the timer.
 
Not the same thing at all. And don't pretend they are.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Lol what? Here is an example.  I can run a group and complete STL in 14-15 minutes, with 12:40 something being our quickest (yes this was after the patch to prevent skipping content).  The dungeon timer is 40 minutes.  We could afk for over half of the entire dungeon timer and still make silver.  Can you explain to me again what your issue with it is?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
How about you let the players themselves be the judges of that instead of sticking to some weird idea of benevolent gatekeeping?
They don't need some kind of patronizing "shepherd caste" to keep them from getting hurt by the eeeevul meanie raid bosses.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
And you're clearing ST that fast with NO ONE in GA gear right? 
----
			
I've gotta say, I'm loving some of these comparisons...
They're quite entertaining...	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
That is correct.  I have a single piece of GA gear, and my SP is over 2900 solo buffed.  If people learned their classes, learned the dungeons, and spent a little time on their gear/runes, it would not have been an issue for everyone to get silver on dungeons.  People who don't want to put in the effort, want their reward.  Go figure.
----
			
 
 
{| class="blockquote"
Point A: correct, but not really a point.
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Access to GA is not a reward. People will still have to put in just as much effort or wait for everyone else to out gear the content then be carried. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Explain the logic underlying that conclusion, please?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
So why weren't you willing to give it time until you were good enough through practice to earn a Silver medal in the time allowed? Why did you ask for this nerf?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
  If I had to carry people who can't even silver dungeons through raids, I would be pissed.  
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I'm currently in datascape.  Like a lot of others, I did the silvers, the world bosses, and paid my 300 primals.
 
I couldn't be happier about the changes.
 
1.  Regarding the "Its easier for the other guy, that's not fair" complaint:  so what?  It helps you as much as it helps them.  You need those new bodies for GA alternates and datascape.  It's not like you being DS attuned means that you're ready to clear DS.  You need to get the other 39 guys attuned, too.
 
2.  Regarding the "bronze doesn't take skill" complaint: I play a dps medic.  These days (in the golden age of the medic) I can join pugs and carry one or both of the other dpsers to silver, but when I was getting attuned, my guild had about 6 players who had the gear to take on silver ssm, and they carried the other 14 of us through.  Now we're all digital powerhouses and have killed ohmna.  Draw your own conclusions on how necessary that first silver dungeon clearing is.
 
3.  Regarding the "filthy casuals are going to be in GA" nonsense:  GOOD.  I hope they clear the whole thing and we finally get some more progression competition going on. 
 
 
I'm sure we're going to see a drop in the number of raiders running dungeons/adventures, but we'll probably see an increase in the number of alts doing the content now.  Personally, I like the world boss requirement, but I can see how it could be viewed as tedious.  If you could kill bosses during the rep grind or the silver requirement that might alleviate some of the problem.  Meh.  Who knows.  The changes are coming, the pool of players in raids is growing, and datascapes days are numbered.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Access to GA is not a reward?  They have access to get gear, see raid content, kill bosses, even though they are terrible.  If I had to carry people who can't even silver dungeons through raids, I would be pissed.  And so should anyone else who values their time that they spend in this game.  Silver dungeons are trivial, and bronzing them isn't even a challenge.  All you have to do now is zone into each dungeon and you get attuned.  This change grants bad people who do not have the mentality to raid, raid gear.  On top of that, it is going to flood the communities with more and more frustration in the raiding scene, dealing with incompetent players. That is all it does, and I am sorry that you are too naive to see that.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Access to GA is not a reward?  They have access to get gear, see raid content, kill bosses, even though they are terrible.  If I had to carry people who can't even silver dungeons through raids, I would be pissed.  And so should anyone else who values their time that they spend in this game.  Silver dungeons are trivial, and bronzing them isn't even a challenge.  All you have to do now is zone into each dungeon and you get attuned.  This change grants bad people who do not have the mentality to raid, raid gear.  On top of that, it is going to flood the communities with more and more frustration in the raiding scene, dealing with incompetent players. That is all it does, and I am sorry that you are too naive to see that.
----
			
Wow after reading so much of this it is no wonder so many have quit the game. Such a toxic community.
As for so many throwing out "wait till they hit the wall in GA and scream for nerfs". You do realize the mmo itself is made around progression right? Over time there will be other armor sets, content, and raids that drop better than we have now. These casuals might be months behind but with better drops from future contents they will overcome with coordinated effort.
 
Pretty much like this in any mmo. Always groups a raid or two behind in the content. Will this be such a big deal when they add another raid? Also so many of you act like none of these people have raided in an mmo before? Far from the truth. I have met VERY few people without some raid experience from another game. People know what to expect, but the current system in place just sucks. For everyone we recruit, two more just stop logging in anymore.
Maybe ask yourself why that is and address that? Fun is subjective I know but seems to be lacking in a lot of places in this game.	
----
			So this change basically means that you will be able to PUG your way through the attunement. Peoples mentality has changed with MMO:s I think. In previous games I've played, for example WoW vanilla, Tibia, Knight Online and so on, the content was near to impossible to achieve without grouping up and talk to people. That was what I enjoyed with the MMO gameplay, because along the way you got so many new friends, some which I still talk to. Even in Wildstar that said they would make the content difficult, you didn't need to talk to a single person through the lvling up experience.To me it was a great thing getting to lvl 50 because to go any further with your progress you needed to team up with other people, and actually talk to them. So I was surprised when I started reading the forums where everyone complained about not being able to PUG 5-man instances. To me PUGs make the game feel like a single player, how many times do you even say one word in these pugs? For me thats just not fun. But I guess peoples mentality has changed when it comes to MMOs. So if they are loosing players by having silver attunement I get why they must change it.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You're free to start your own "no scrubs allowed" guild. No one to carry for you.
 
Oh what's that?
You have problems filling your roster?
Who woulda thunk!
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You're free to start your own "no scrubs allowed" guild. No one to carry for you.
 
Oh what's that?
You have problems filling your roster?
Who woulda thunk!
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Access to GA is not a reward?  They have access to get gear, see raid content, kill bosses, even though they are terrible.  If I had to carry people who can't even silver dungeons through raids, I would be pissed.  And so should anyone else who values their time that they spend in this game.  Silver dungeons are trivial, and bronzing them isn't even a challenge.  All you have to do now is zone into each dungeon and you get attuned.  This change grants bad people who do not have the mentality to raid, raid gear.  On top of that, it is going to flood the communities with more and more frustration in the raiding scene, dealing with incompetent players. That is all it does, and I am sorry that you are too naive to see that.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
We have no problem filling the roster as it stands.  We have about 2 full groups started up to go into GA before this change, on one of the least populated servers.  However, people quit, RL happens and we need to continue recruiting.  This now becomes an issue with retards wasting my time.  See how it works?  Who woulda thunk?!
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
We have no problem filling the roster as it stands.  We have about 2 full groups started up to go into GA before this change, on one of the least populated servers.  However, people quit, RL happens and we need to continue recruiting.  This now becomes an issue with retards wasting my time.  See how it works?  Who woulda thunk?!
----
			
Lol there is no point in spending my time replying to all of you since there is an attack going on now (obviously with 3-4 replies between my posts).  Go ahead guys, go recruit for your raids with these subpar players who can barely bronze dungeons.  Come back in a couple of months with an apology and complain that the raiding community is utter shit, and cry for nerfs on raid content because your subar players can't defeat X-89 and Kurlak.  That is, if you don't quit due to these related reasons before then.
 
I will just wait here in the shadows for people to complain about how the timers aren't long enough on the bosses to feasibly kill them, before I bump this thread.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I already did.  You are trying to twist words to start an argument like you do in every other thread.  Read the statements for what it is, and not what you want them to be.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 This now becomes an issue with retards wasting my time. 
----
			I hope you don't see my post as an attack, as i am genuinely asking what your recruitment process is (silver or bronze attuned), and surely you have a screening process to make sure you don't walk into a raid with a completely unknown variable of a player to begin with?	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I don't care.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I hope you don't see my post as an attack, as i am genuinely asking what your recruitment process is (silver or bronze attuned), and surely you have a screening process to make sure you don't walk into a raid with a completely unknown variable of a player to begin with.
----
			Ladies and gentlemen,  might I remind you that we've already had a mod come in here and warn everyone twice this morning to leave the personal attacks out of this.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
People are ALWAYS going to cry for nerfs. It happened in FFXIV:ARR and that game was flippin easy. Assuming Carbine is going to cave based on past behavior of other games, though, isn't exactly fair.
 
Removing this timer wasn't a direct content nerf. They've stayed true to their mantra.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
I will just wait here in the shadows for people to complain about how the timers aren't long enough on the bosses to feasibly kill them, before I bump this thread.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 Yes, as of right now, they have not nerfed any raid content because of difficulty complaints.  If they don't in the future and create more difficult content, I will be happy that my fears were unfounded.
----
			
All they did was change a quest to make endgame more accessible.
 
Nothing has been nerfed. They have stated even recently(yesterday) nothing is getting nerfed in dungeons/raids.
 
 
 
Attunement isnt hard now.. ok w/e
 
Run a dungeon with your members and see if they can do it.	
----
			
@Baelix:
 
You're assuming that Carbine did this because players were vocal about it. I'm also assuming here, but I'm going to say that's most likely not the case. 
 
It's much more likely that they're using metrics they've captured around dungeon attempts and completion, attunement and general population numbers, and other things to come to this decision on their own.
 
In short, I don't believe that the precedent you think is being set is actually a thing.	
----
			
Sorry, but by proxy it was nerfed.  If it was easy before, and it is still easy, there was no reason to change it.  Making something more attainable that it was before is called a nerf, regardless of how you personally look at it.
 
As for inviting people who paid for silvers prior to now is a diff topic.  Ofc we run dungeons with potential apps to try them out.  Only diff is now that it is unlocked to everyone, we will have to the Nth power more apps to screen through.  It is a waste of time for everyone if they can't atleast be competent enough to silver a dungeon.  Most guilds have expectations higher than silvering dungeons, and if they can't do that, then it is a waste of time to even try them out (except now there is no way to tell).	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Sorry, but by proxy it was nerfed.  If it was easy before, and it is still easy, there was no reason to change it.  Making something more attainable that it was before is called a nerf, regardless of how you personally look at it.
 
As for inviting people who paid for silvers prior to now is a diff topic.  Ofc we run dungeons with potential apps to try them out.  Only diff is now that it is unlocked to everyone, we will have to the Nth power more apps to screen through.  It is a waste of time for everyone if they can't atleast be competent enough to silver a dungeon.  Most guilds have expectations higher than silvering dungeons, and if they can't do that, then it is a waste of time to even try them out (except now there is no way to tell).
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
@Baelix:
 
You're assuming that Carbine did this because players were vocal about it. I'm also assuming here, but I'm going to say that's most likely not the case.
 
It's much more likely that they're using metrics they've captured around dungeon attempts and completion, attunement and general population numbers, and other things to come to this decision on their own.
 
In short, I don't believe that the precedent you think is being set is actually a thing.
----
			
I for one am happy they're changing the attunement to bronze.
 
Not because it'll be easier for me to get attuned (which it will be).
 
It's because I'll actually be able to complete veteran dungeons in group finder, because people won't drop the second they find out they can't beat the timer.
 
If you were to ask me to pick the single most infuriating issue in Wildstar right now, it's that. As it currently stands, the only thing most people are concerned about when running dungeons on Group Finder is either getting themselves or one of their guildies attuned, and the second they realize they can't get silver, for any reason, those people will just drop group, even if they have to wait out the (relatively) short 15 minute timer before they can try again. There are dungeons that I haven't even done yet at all (let alone on veteran), and I'm afraid to even ask what I'm even supposed to be doing, just because they know it'll waste time off the clock trying to explain the fights to me. So, my strategy's just been to join a group, run till somebody drops, then re queue until I learn all the fights through trial and error.
 
This is frustrating enough as a healer, but I can't even imagine what it'd be like for a DPS class, where the queue times are typically 40 minutes to an hour long. And for a guy who might not even give a lick about raiding, this could be a deal breaker for them. I would bet that more people have left Wildstar not because of how hard it is to get attuned, but how hard it is to have a group that'll actually try to clear a veteran dungeon just for the fun of it.
 
In my opinion, Silver and Gold runs should be reserved for guild runs, and even then, guilds are spending enough time raiding as it is to have to ALSO walk guildies through the attunement process. People need time to catch up on dailies, work their professions and so on, so they can support their guilds raid schedule. The whole attunement process needs to be a solo ordeal, and I would challenge that finding a group that'll be patient and teach a new player how to run a veteran dungeon is WAY harder than eventually being able to clear silver.
 
EDIT: I guess I want to clarify MY interpretation of Carbines "hardcore". It's not spending hours and hours running crafts, helping guildies, fighting dungeons and so on. To be frank, that was the shittiest part of the early WoW experience, that I had to invest so much time in the game just to feel like I got anywhere. Making players invest hours and hours into that crap doesn't make your game "hardcore".
 
"Hardcore" is in the content. That is, the dungeons, raids and so on that you work towards are THEMSELVES the challenging bit. That's what ultimately killed it with WoW for me; the dungeon/raid encounters (though I will admit, in many cases interesting) were just plain dumb easy. The gear was too easy to get, it was too easy for 2-3 really geared players to carry the whole raid, and so on. If making attunement easier doesn't involve nerfing the actual content (for example, if they had extended the silver timer like many people have suggested), then Carbine actually hasn't strayed from their vision at all.
 
And to you guys that have it; you've still EARNED your silver medal. They're not taking it away from you or making it easier to get, it's just not as important as it used to be. If you're really that worked up about it, you can just make people post their silver achievement in all the dungeons as a requisite for joining your guild.	
----
			The amount of players that are dirt bags has totally exceeded my expectations.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
All they did was change a quest to make endgame more accessible.
 
Nothing has been nerfed. They have stated even recently(yesterday) nothing is getting nerfed in dungeons/raids.
 
 
 
Attunement isnt hard now.. ok w/e
 
Run a dungeon with your members and see if they can do it.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The amount of players that are dirt bags has totally exceeded my expectations.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The amount of players that are dirt bags has totally exceeded my expectations.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Then make them send a screenshot of their toon and silver dungeon achievement when submitting an app. Or link it in game.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Then make them send a screenshot of their toon and silver dungeon achievement when submitting an app. Or link it in game.
----
			
You're scared because more people might be able to take a stab at a chunk of game content. Ooooooh no, the horror!
 
I for one welcome this change. More people playing content the devs spent hard work and long hours on is a good thing.
 
{| class="blockquote"
This change for me is about the philosophy behind it. It unequivocally clears the path for everyone to enter the raid.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You're scared because more people might be able to take a stab at a chunk of game content. Ooooooh no, the horror!
 
I for one welcome this change. More people playing content the devs spent hard work and long hours on is a good thing.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
And they reveal their true colors anytime someone "not as good as they are" have a chance at seeing content.
 
If you think it's bad now, wait until the inevitable raid nerfs. It's going to be awesome to behold.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Point A: The goal of the attunement process is to make sure you're ready for the raids.
 
Point B: Raids are not timed.
 
Point C: Raid rewards are not affected by deaths or even wipes.
 
Now, if one of the above points is incorrect, please let me know.
 
If they are all three correct, then:
 
Conclusion: the part of dungeons that is relevant to attunement is the ability to overcome boss mechanics to complete the instance. The timed/no deaths part is irrelevant.
----