123235-the-big-bad-burnout-page-2

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"THAT'S IT.  I'M RUNNING THIS @#$% WITHOUT PANTS."
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No a good example of Grind content, that's viable for raiding and other extremely high end content, is a proper token system.
 
Where you kill the boss and you get a token for it, per player individually.
The more times you kill the boss the more tokens you get, after you get enough of these tokens you can get a gear piece that would either match gear you could get from RNG drops, OR its a peice of gear From the RNG Drop list.
 
Elder Gems sort of did this EG convergence, but that's gone.
The Glory system kinda does this but it's a general currency, however its a great improvement form before.
 
The fact that I can grind glory, and save it up so that when I get a System Daemons kill, I can go and buy some SD gear with Glory, is a fantastic example of well done grind content.
 
The Glory system so far is an example of grind content, it has a clear objective, a clear reward, and with further accomplisments these possible rewards grow.
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To be fair, a few of us have, and I'm not discounting the OP's approach for everyone except the people he specifically called out (hardcore raiders who don't care about anything else don't care about fluffy pets, but everyone else does, and there are a lot of them.  Still, I think Rem's post on the subject is still the class of the thread:
 
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My biggest complaint is STILL the RNG factor of it.
I hate NEED GREED systems.
 
I wouldnt mind the need greed so much if they would do Tokens. And no I don't mean the token system that they introduced here, those tokens are still on the RNG need greed.
 
No a good example of Grind content, that's viable for raiding and other extremely high end content, is a proper token system.
 
Where you kill the boss and you get a token for it, per player individually.
The more times you kill the boss the more tokens you get, after you get enough of these tokens you can get a gear piece that would either match gear you could get from RNG drops, OR its a peice of gear From the RNG Drop list.
 
Elder Gems sort of did this EG convergence, but that's gone.
The Glory system kinda does this but it's a general currency, however its a great improvement form before.
 
The fact that I can grind glory, and save it up so that when I get a System Daemons kill, I can go and buy some SD gear with Glory, is a fantastic example of well done grind content.
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Well said, and a lovely example of how the game has in fact tried to make the reward system less random for rewards that require significant effort to obtain.
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Thankfully, with the costume system your pants can be off and we'll never know it!  :lol:
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Vic, if you had a warrior with 3600 AP.
you would probably be bored too and find NO reason to go show your face in hell rose bowl face rolling shit while being afk.
 
power creep RUINS the gameplay and funnel players into a single linear path that will lead to BURNOUT.
 
why would you do R-12 if you grinded the Rep already ? 
 
 
the game does a bad job at getting its content reused in a nice cyclic way.
its more like "that thing for 20 times in a row then never again".
 
anyway. i don't agree with Rem's post and content locust and this and that.
i simply think the game needs to rethink its endgame philosophy.
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I would still like to see a real token system, not this need greed roll/play favorites token drop that got put into place.
I was sorely let down.
 
It's a tiny step forward, but not as much as we needed it.
 
Prius Online's token system was *cupcake*in amazing, it would be absolutely fantastic for WildStar, considering part of it is already in the game with boss kill requirements.
 
In prius you picked up a quest for a particular instance boss set clear, and doing so you would take completed quest back to the NPC and exchange it for a token, and then the NPC would allow you an exchange of tokens for a set of gear that was on par with the drops that you could be using.
 
It's a brilliant system, and WildStar could utilize it so well.
It incentivises skill optimization on fights, and allows players to get their own rewards and not get screwed/still benifit by the RNG.
 
 
*ignores your previous retort that's completely irrelevant*
 
I don't care.
I want more to do in game.
 
 
I don't care what anyone else wants, I just want more things to do, and have the ability to stay engaged in game for longer than I do right now.
Be it PVP, grinding, whatever.
I don't care.
 
I want to play WildStar, I don't want to log in for just raids, I don't want to have that feeling of "I wanna play wildstar, but there's nothing to do right now"
 
Now either you can say "yeah I can understand that" or you can buzz off trying to talk to me.
Because I don't care what you have to say, what you think or what your opinion is.
 
I was talking about my issues with the game, your issues are IRRELEVANT to my issues.
 
I wanna play WildStar, I want more things to do in WildStar, the grind content they made was pretty awesome for that.
I'm upset they nerfed the hell out of it because I really liked it.
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Well i explained and posted information for you to see so that you're aware that it's very different and one contradicts the other.
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Unfortunately, the greater community didn't agree with you.
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Actually, I run a tank that often WAY overgears things I run.  I routinely take people through world boss runs.  Yes, I do run R12 even though it's one of the few reps I've maxed.  In fact, I still run old events like the zombie event outside Thayd.
 
Then again, I'm not the guy you want to raise as an example.  I get the most pleasure in this game from helping new players experience the content.  Believe me, I am trying to articulate and encapsulate the concerns of multiple facets of the community.
 
If you ask me personally, most people have the keys to their own coffins.  If all they needed was a set of gear with less AP, they could get a set of gear with less AP.  Rewards, as Rem pointed out, are also not going to help people who are only oriented towards endgame progression.  Everything behind them is "unnecessary."
 
The greater community isn't like me or an exclusive endgame raider, and for them this is all academic.  All that matters to the common player is, "Do I have time for this," "How fun is this to do," and "What do I get in the end?"  It's why Vet Shiphands, even though a lot of us don't need the gear, are run.  People have time and they're fun.  People have to make time for raids, but they're fun and they get great stuff in the end.  Dungeons, you'd think, are all three since they're shorter than raids, give you pre-raiding gear and all kinds of great decor, flair, et al, and are widely reported to be fun to do.
 
It's all about when one of those three is badly out of sync.  It's why the methodology isn't important in gear dispensation, and it's why you aren't really going to help the exclusive endgame raider who won't do anything else unless he gets better gear.
 
Costumes and mounts are great, especially for the larger breadth of the community, but I highly doubt many players have literally everything and are only logging in for raids now because there's literally nothing else to do.  Just little else interests them.  Their only cure will be more content up their alley with rewards they directly value.  It's a small wonder they're in danger of burning out.
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And I explained that in my mind, it works out the same. Perhaps you don't understand what I mean by "the same". I don't mean that objectively the two systems work the same way. I'm saying they have the same effect on my motivation. If I know that something works out to be a 10% chance of dropping, then I understand my "expected value" of doing the content is 10% of the value of the item. This is the same to me (again, in terms of motivation) as if doing the content would get me 10% closer to the goal.
 
This is the way poker players (and all gamblers) think about odds because we know that in the long run, over a large sample size, the "bumps" along the way even out. So that time you get the item on the first run and the time you get it on the 20th eventually will be anomalies against the average. This is a good thing for a poker player, because we can make the right decisions and trust that in the long run, it will work out rather than focusing on individual outcomes. But it generates excitement in the short term, which keeps bringing back losing players to the table. It's just a thought process you have to develop in order to stay sane while gambling (if you are trying to do it skillfully).
 
So I get what you are saying and they are different. What I'm telling you is that for some of us, it RNG vs grind works exactly the same way in terms of motivation.
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Actually, your mind doesn't deal with them the same way at all because in one case the expected value is the actual value and in the other case it is a probabilistic estimate. The estimation only starts to really approximate the actual value in a well-defined way with large numbers of samples (more than about 30, that's when the central limit theorem kicks in).
 
That's why RNGs don't bother us for open world mobs anywhere near as much as they do for dungeon bosses--we'll hit the equivalency point for open world mobs in even a relatively short time window of playing. We won't do that for dungeon bosses on anywhere near the same timescale.
 
Edited for clarity about the effect of sample size on the expected value accuracy.
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But it doesn't mean it's the same thing.
That was the whole point.
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I'm pretty damn sure that most people would agree that they would like more things to do in-game.
And people didnt agree with me on somethings, but we got what I suggested anyways. (EG 20 player datascape, 1~3player shiphands)
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In *my* mind, it *does* work out the same way (again, in terms of motivation), and I'm probably not alone. But I don't expect all people think like me.
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I don't care.
I want more to do in game.
 
I don't care what anyone else wants, I just want more things to do, and have the ability to stay engaged in game for longer than I do right now.
Be it PVP, grinding, whatever.
I don't care.
 
I want to play WildStar, I don't want to log in for just raids, I don't want to have that feeling of "I wanna play wildstar, but there's nothing to do right now"
 
Now either you can say "yeah I can understand that" or you can buzz off trying to talk to me.
Because I don't care what you have to say, what you think or what your opinion is.
 
I was talking about my issues with the game, your issues are IRRELEVANT to my issues.
 
I wanna play WildStar, I want more things to do in WildStar, the grind content they made was pretty awesome for that.
I'm upset they nerfed the hell out of it because I really liked it.
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Regardless of your anecdote, and the end result. They arent the same thing.
 
Craps and Poker are both games of chance and you gamble and place your bets and you win and lose.
Doesn't mean their the same game.
 
RNG and Grind are two VERY different things.
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nothing else is challenging.
yes, i understand... they could run naked to make the content relevant...
 
but aside from that. this is why gw2 is such a success story even without linear progression. they have tons of events, downlevel mechanics, achievement point reward, collections rewards...
 
its the game's job to make all its content Re-playable. and wildstar does such a terrible job at this.
 
i am not saying this is true for everybody.
but i am certainly not alone in this boat.
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The whole point to me is what is motivating the players and what they like. Which is why I posted the clarification about what I meant by "the same".
 
I could have communicated better- what I originally was trying to get at is from a motivational standpoint, RNG is the same as a "grind".
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Not to the players you're trying to sell this to, though.  That's why, even though you don't want to care what they think, what they think matters.
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poker vs. Wildstar's RNG
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Regardless of your anecdote, and the end result. They arent the same thing.
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Hey Fran, I agree they aren't the same thing. I've said I agree they aren't the same thing. When I said they were the same thing, I didn't even mean they were literally the same thing. I meant they were same for me from a motivational standpoint, but I didn't say it right. So I'm trying to clarify it now.
 
So do me a favor. Forget everything I've said about RNG vs grind before in this thread. And read this:
 
For me, Slyjeff, RNG and grind methods of acquiring rewards in a game provide the same motivation to do the content.
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RNG and grind methods of acquiring rewards in a game provide the same motivation to do the content.
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In a poker game you can have a reasonable expectation that the decks are appropriately randomized.  People tend to get fairly incensed when they aren't.
 
Game are notorious for using awful RNG algorithms.  Wildstar's has been known to be particularly streaky and tend to use compound probabilities (RNG to RNG your RNG) making the Jackpot not just rare, but near impossible to hit.  The reason people left in droves was because the payoffs weren't even coming close to the level of effort required to run the content.
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Shoulda said that sooner.
That clears up that right there.
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"THAT'S IT.  I'M RUNNING THIS @#$% WITHOUT PANTS."
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People WAY underestimate how streaky true randomness is. I know, because I use to work on a drug testing program that selected people at random. Anyone who ever got picked twice in a row always alleged there was something wrong with the RNG. I'd send mathematical proofs, but it just didn't "feel" random.
 
When online poker was a big thing, "Online poker is rigged" was a popular statement, even though all of those companies had VERY sophisticated ways of generating RNG. And when you play live, you see the same stuff even in a well shuffled deck. Which is why "Live poker is rigged" became a joke :)
 
Real randomness IS streaky, and sometimes it's not. But people tend to perceive patterns where there aren't.
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People WAY underestimate how streaky true randomness is. I know, because I use to work on a drug testing program that selected people at random. Anyone who ever got picked twice in a row always alleged there was something wrong with the RNG. I'd send mathematical proofs, but it just didn't "feel" random.
 
When online poker was a big thing, "Online poker is rigged" was a popular statement, even though all of those companies had VERY sophisticated ways of generating RNG. And when you play live, you see the same stuff even in a well shuffled deck. Which is why "Live poker is rigged" became a joke :)
 
Real randomness IS streaky, and sometimes it's not. But people tend to perceive patterns where there aren't.
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for me the burnout comes fairly quickly in Wildstar because it is a tiring game to play. By that I mean it requires my full attention all the time in combat, even out in the open world. Added to that the combat does become repetitive and boring, dodge, interrupt, spam simple dos rotation. dead.
Other MMO's also have combat that becomes repetitive and boring but they don't require the focus and attention Wildstar does so they don't become so tiring to play. They also have arguably more complex classes to play, which I like
 
If I want to sit back with a drink and relax and enjoy a little game time and just unwind then I choose another game. When I want some challenging, gameplay I come and play WIldstar for awhile
 
 
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I'm pretty damn sure that most people would agree that they would like more things to do in-game.And people didnt agree with me on somethings, but we got what I suggested anyways. (EG 20 player datascape, 1~3player shiphands)
 
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for me the burnout comes fairly quickly in Wildstar because it is a tiring game to play. By that I mean it requires my full attention all the time in combat, even out in the open world. Added to that the combat does become repetitive and boring, dodge, interrupt, spam simple dos rotation. dead.
Other MMO's also have combat that becomes repetitive and boring but they don't require the focus and attention Wildstar does so they don't become so tiring to play. They also have arguably more complex classes to play, which I like
 
If I want to sit back with a drink and relax and enjoy a little game time and just unwind then I choose another game. When I want some challenging, gameplay I come and play WIldstar for awhile
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you're clearly not in raid gear
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I've not felt any burnout yet, personally.
My raid group just recently killed Ohmna and are starting on DS, which is exciting.
PvP is starting to breathe again, which I love.
There are player events, costumes to make, houses to build, RP and Guildies to fool around with.
 
And when we do finally kill Avatus? Well, there's still all that other stuff!	
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Craps and Poker are both games of chance and you gamble and place your bets and you win and lose.
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People WAY underestimate how streaky true randomness is. I know, because I use to work on a drug testing program that selected people at random. Anyone who ever got picked twice in a row always alleged there was something wrong with the RNG. I'd send mathematical proofs, but it just didn't "feel" random.
 
When online poker was a big thing, "Online poker is rigged" was a popular statement, even though all of those companies had VERY sophisticated ways of generating RNG. And when you play live, you see the same stuff even in a well shuffled deck. Which is why "Live poker is rigged" became a joke :)
 
Real randomness IS streaky, and sometimes it's not. But people tend to perceive patterns where there aren't.
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Only made it through page 6 before rolling my eyes.
 
Token systems are boring. BORING. Lots of people actually enjoy the act of opening up the loot from a boss and seeing what goodies he has, even if it's the same piece of leather gear you've gotten 15 times before, because there's a chance that maybe, this time, it will be what YOU need. Tokens take away a huge portion of the enjoyment for me. Then it turns raiding into just another boring grind, making sure I'm logging in for the right bosses to get the gear I need, and not bothering to show up for the bosses i already got tokens for. Or if it's one token for an entire dungeon, there's no point in even killing hard bosses again after you've killed em once for credit. Show up for the easy token grind and get the gear from an NPC. boooooooooooring.	
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Only made it through page 6 before rolling my eyes.
 
Token systems are boring. BORING. Lots of people actually enjoy the act of opening up the loot from a boss and seeing what goodies he has, even if it's the same piece of leather gear you've gotten 15 times before, because there's a chance that maybe, this time, it will be what YOU need. 
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Only made it through page 6 before rolling my eyes.
 
Token systems are boring. BORING. Lots of people actually enjoy the act of opening up the loot from a boss and seeing what goodies he has, even if it's the same piece of leather gear you've gotten 15 times before, because there's a chance that maybe, this time, it will be what YOU need. Tokens take away a huge portion of the enjoyment for me. Then it turns raiding into just another boring grind, making sure I'm logging in for the right bosses to get the gear I need, and not bothering to show up for the bosses i already got tokens for. Or if it's one token for an entire dungeon, there's no point in even killing hard bosses again after you've killed em once for credit. Show up for the easy token grind and get the gear from an NPC. boooooooooooring.
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Well, you're in luck. This game also introduced gambleboxes in drop 4. Have all the excitement you want, best of luck.
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Carbine is hoping that players will share their experiences of what super-uber-cool stuff they got from the bags. As far as I can tell, that's exactly what's happening. I can't tell how effective it is but considering how fast the Primal thingies for the bags are selling every time I place them on the CX, I'd say it's working.
 
 
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Only made it through page 6 before rolling my eyes.
 
Token systems are boring. BORING.
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not working
 
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Carbine is hoping that players will share their experiences of what super-uber-cool stuff they got from the bags. As far as I can tell, that's exactly what's happening. I can't tell how effective it is but considering how fast the Primal thingies for the bags are selling every time I place them on the CX, I'd say it's working.
 
 
 
Hi, you sound like a gambler. May I dare to suggest that not everyone likes gambling? That some people like working steadily towards a goal and know exactly how far from achieving it they are, instead of hoping to be blessed by the RNGods or luck? No? Only gamblers are allowed? Okay, then. Good we clarified that.
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Relevant:
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkzOCFN_FEw&t=92	
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Only made it through page 6 before rolling my eyes.
 
Token systems are boring. BORING. Lots of people actually enjoy the act of opening up the loot from a boss and seeing what goodies he has, even if it's the same piece of leather gear you've gotten 15 times before, because there's a chance that maybe, this time, it will be what YOU need. Tokens take away a huge portion of the enjoyment for me. Then it turns raiding into just another boring grind, making sure I'm logging in for the right bosses to get the gear I need, and not bothering to show up for the bosses i already got tokens for. Or if it's one token for an entire dungeon, there's no point in even killing hard bosses again after you've killed em once for credit. Show up for the easy token grind and get the gear from an NPC. boooooooooooring.
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			Downleveled to the zone you go in? No, thank you. That was the gw2 killer for me when i tried that game. Instead of new zones, add high lvl tasks, dungeons and/or adventures, in the low level zones. That way new players in the low levels won't see a "dead" game, instead they will see others even if high level in those areas.	
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Hi, you sound like a gambler. May I dare to suggest that not everyone likes gambling? That some people like working steadily towards a goal and know exactly how far from achieving it they are, instead of hoping to be blessed by the RNGods or luck? No? Only gamblers are allowed? Okay, then. Good we clarified that.
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For clarification, token or currency?  Tokens are RNG the same as gear drops, they are simply transferable across a larger portion of the raid in attendance.  It's not really that different than before, just more flexible.  Currency, like glory, is a pretty much, straight up grind, but there is still the chance of gear dropping from the bosses anyway, so it's a safety net.
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she's reacting to this post I made referring to token systems.
 
And yeah Glory is pretty much the same thing as the token system except it's non specific to bosses for the aquiring of said "token" item, and it can just be farmed by an easy means, and you only need to kill the boss once.
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Oh, I meant the actual raid tokens in Wildstar now.  I was under the impression they dropped in GA now, since I saw their vendor good (though that may not be true, it was an assumption the tokens are also implemented already).  That's why I was asking for clarification.  Right up until GA, there's a currency and drop system in place, then GA makes it a drop and token system.  So it goes from an RNG system with a grind for backup, then goes to a regulated RNG system once you start raiding.
 
At least, that's what I understand it to be.  I could easily be wrong about the specifics, though.  I'm obviously not taking raiding very seriously; I spent last night enthusiastically setting up and running HRB and followed it up with dailies.
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the Tokens are still RNG drop, but the positive thing about the WildStar tokens is that they allow you to pick up either mainspec or offspec of your choice when you get it.
 
Unfortunately these tokens are still need greed(Master Loot) RNG drop, which doesn't make them much better than having the gear just drop anyways.
The token I got I used on healing shoulders, because I had already gotten datascape DPEsper shoulders.
 
The Glory system is the "grind" able backup, which is fine, but it doesn't directly incentivise being optimal at a boss encounter. You beat system damons once and you get access to the entire System daemons glory gear.
 
Now in truth this is fine, but it's inferior to a true tokens in method and intent for raiding and skill basis.
 
I really think WildStar should focus heavily on rewarding high skill cap play.
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I honestly leave the specifics like this for other people.  I have a very broad range of gearing I don't mind.  I'm not particularly a fan of having epics handed out on plates, I mind long gear grinds (though less), but I don't really care how the loot comes to me.  I think that's a minority opinion as well, but I will continue to do content rallied down with my guild simply because I like it.  I don't necessarily need a reward incentive, so that's just icing on the cake if the game is fun.
 
About the only thing I can say here is that rewarding high-skill group play is a double-edged sword.  In theory, it's great, in practice, it can lead to things like our queues suffering from gold-medal rage.  It can, however, be mitigated, and I think rewarding players for doing well is respectable especially in raids.  It just has to be presented in such a way that "high skill" doesn't become the new norm the way it was back right after launch.  While I'm of the camp that says you can't expect a gold medal every time from everyone in a PUG, I don't think that translated especially well.  However, I think this was also seen in the AMP and Ability Points grind.  Those were meant to be optional, little additions that you didn't strictly need on entering GA.  They aren't treated that way.
 
It's a tough balancing act, and I can't say I have the answers at my fingertips.  There are two conflicting problems, the idea that people want to get to the top of the mountain, but also that people don't always like climbing.  Maybe more incremental increases, like adding steps like Vet Shiphands and separating tier 1 and tier 2 instances that all give rising gear helps a bit more, because people don't feel like they spend as much time in stasis, even though it may take the same (if not more) time to reach the top.
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We could talk for weeks on the subject, but in the end I really think that WildStar executed the whole token/rewards system that they did, while they had a great idea in mind, very poorly.
 
 
Granted I'm certainly glad they at least did something that was a step forward in the right direction to make the game more accesable and reduce the RNG and need greed loot issues, but it's not the product I would have shipped out the door with the prior knowledge I have of other games in the market that executed similar systems but with better results and better player satisifaction.
 
I don't think "you need a gold medal" everytime is the right idea, I do think varying degree's of the same reward in the end would provide a scaling reward for a skill basis.
 
The example token system I lightly described is an example of this.
It incentevises people to optimize their gameplay to be able to achieve the reward as fast as possible and reach their goal in mind.
 
There's a lot of ways to execute, and the problem was that WildStar at first picked the worst way, and then had to fix it, and now they're making further steps forward with the system to improve the experience and reward progressed players.
 
It's not much, but its enough at least to ease the curve.
However, WildStar can do better with future content.
 
 
Speaking of shiphands, while the vet versions are pretty interesting, they're mind numbingly easy and while they are intended for more casual players, I think a harder version of the vet shiphands could play host to more hardcore styled content.
 
 
Ofc I could be overly critcal of carbine, but then again, can you really blame me when this is the game I adamantly want to succeed?
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			Tho it's important to note that many people find a token collection grind to be a boring way to handle loot. No matter if you disagree or not.
			
				
	Edited March 5, 2015 by BusterCasey	
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I will throw it out there that I haven't read the entirety of this thread but for me personally it's this:
 
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is it because it isn't alt friendly ? (i don't want to grind that attunement again!)
 
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PvP is your friend unid! My 2 weeks old alt is almost amp and skill point capped, thanks to the change to pvp ability/amp unlocks.
 
 
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I forgot that when certain people are part of a topic, I'm not allowed to express a differing opinion without being insulted, berated, or talked down to.
 
Tho it's important to note that many people find a token collection grind to be a boring way to handle loot. No matter if you disagree or not.
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I haven't read all 8 pages of replies.  But, I wanted to voice some opinions on the topic raised in the first post of the thread.
 
I think it's really important for all of us, and Carbine, to remember that there are lots of different things that motivate players and keep them interested in a game.  There's no one-size-fits-all answer.  For some folks, it's PvE progression (levels and loot).  For others, it's challenge progression (bigger, badder raids and dungeons).  For yet others, it's PvP (warplots), or social activities (housing, roleplay).  For some it's exploration (lore, questing, hidden things).  And even these things I've listed are broad generalizations.
 
I also think it's really important for all of us as players to realize that Wildstar is not WoW.  I'm sure you're all saying "Well DUH Neph, we know that!"  But what I mean by that is that Wildstar doesn't have years and years of expansions to give us more and more things to keep us interested.  Wildstar's less than a year old, and while Carbine's been working overtime to add stuff as fast as they can, they'll never be able to add things fast enough to satisfy everyone.
 
I'm saying this because I think that sometimes we as players look down on people who get burnt out, but the reality is that we shouldn't.  It's easy to say "well they should go do housing" or whatever, but you know what?  A month from now some of the folks saying that will be the ones thinking about taking a break, or realizing that they're spending all their time playing a different game.  Burnout happens to everyone, eventually.  Even the games that I played for years and years and years, I had to take breaks from occasionally.
 
All that said, I think Carbine suffers from the same problem a lot of MMO developers do - and that is that they have a really hard time providing something for every type of player in every update.  That's not a slam on them necessarily - it takes a huge team to do that.  But while Carbine is busy working on loot from raids and dungeons, crafting is being neglected.  While Carbine is fixing PvP, explorers and questers have nothing new on the horizon.
 
Here's what *I* think Carbine needs to do with their game in order to attract and retain the greatest numbers of subscribers over time:
 
1) Continue to play to your strengths in PvE content.  Challenging dungeons and challenging raids are a ton of fun.  Keep adding more of these, and keep working to make the rewards worth the time players invest in them.
2) PvP has been long neglected, and looks like it's finally going to get some love.  Keep that going.  Half of the draw of this game for me when I started was the concept of warplots, and I'm not even a PvP player.  Wildstar can, and should be the game where PvP is on equal footing with PvE.
3) Wildstar has some great concepts in its crafting system, but the system as a whole is not utilized well.  Quite simply, there's very little reason to really be a crafter or participate in what passes for an economy in this game.  This in turn means that the crafting system, and all the dev time that went into it,is not fulfilling its purpose of keeping players interested in the game.  Fix this.  Fix recipes, add more recipes, make every item useful, and add ways for crafters to feel like they have an endgame too.
4) Housing is amazing, but what would take it to the next level is making it less of an individual and more of a social thing.  Things like neighborhoods and guild "housing" should be on the roadmap, and the devs in charge of housing need to keep adding interesting things for all of us to go build and rebuild with.
5) Don't forget the people that just want to experience the world.  Add new areas for them to go explore, new (and better) quests for them to do, new lore, new enemies, and new secrets.  Give them new drops, new costumes, new mounts, things to find and collect and be proud of.  Don't put everything behind a queue you enter at the click of a button, but reward people who go off the beaten path or who work with other players out in the world to solve puzzles.
6) Make professions more meaningful, and add more situations to the game where players of different professions need to work together to complete objectives.  There are precious few of these now, and the result is that many people look at a profession only as a selection of utility skills.  They should be more than that.  They deserve to be more than that.
7) Last and probably most importantly - build a vision for Wildstar and tell us as players what that vision is.  Whether that's taking us beyond Nexus to other planets in the galaxy, or confronting a new and ancient threat that even the Eldan were afraid of, or something completely unexpected.  Show us that vision of the future and then make it real - because the promise of having something new and amazing to look forward to will keep us all playing longer.
 
That's my thoughts on the subject of the OP.  I now return you to the raid loot conversation already in progress :)	
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I'm saying this because I think that sometimes we as players look down on people who get burnt out, but the reality is that we shouldn't.  It's easy to say "well they should go do housing" or whatever, but you know what?  A month from now some of the folks saying that will be the ones thinking about taking a break, or realizing that they're spending all their time playing a different game.  Burnout happens to everyone, eventually.  Even the games that I played for years and years and years, I had to take breaks from occasionally.
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After one day of not particularly aggressive PvPing in the post-PvP normalization world, I have one of the old 1800 rated weapons. That's the most expensive PvP gear piece there is, the rest are substantially cheaper. That seems really fast to me for going from entry-level PvP weapon to best PvP weapon there is.
 
Don't get me wrong--I thought the ratings requirement for gear was an absolute PvP-killer. I'm really glad it's gone. But I had been imagining, perhaps naively, that when they took it out they would increase the prestige cost of the gear somewhat so that it would make sense to work your way up through the different qualities of PvP gear and spread out the climb to the top. 
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But this is not why PvP'ers should be playing the game or what PvP is about. You see, the whole PvP system only starts to become 'balanced' (and fun) once everyone has the same level of gear on their character. I've played WoW almost exclusively in PvP during the last 2-3 expansions and could never understand why there should be a 3 month grind on Conquest points just to finally get in line with the rest and be competitive if you didn't. It's all about being and playing at a competitive level, not a long grind up there. As a PvPer, I do not want pushovers on my team or the enemy team and I certainly don't want to be pushed around for months on end because my character just isn't performing at its best yet.
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switching to PvP topic here.
yeah, the "grind" to be able to start having optimal fun in PvP shouldn't be there.
I for one was a total advocate of getting a similar system as Gw2 for wildstar.
But a lot of cupcakes "needs" their stat progression and grind for runes and amp/abil etc. for them this is the game: play more to get more stats.
To me, this is a lazy design or a bygone era and the devs should find a way of nailing a progression system that doesn't include "+1 power".
a daunting task i suppose.
Gw2 is the closest to what the future should be in term of theme park mmo: no infinite gear level in PvE and 100% balanced structured PvP. It is only a small step in the right direction and probably (hopefully) another developers with balls (i.e.: not carbine) will eventually make an evolutionary mmo instead of playing it safe with old mentalities.
 
one of the main problem with mmos was that because of the engine they run on and their online nature "skill based gameplay" was not really feasible (though Ultima Online was kind of BADASS). So they resorted to tab targeting and "stats" and its been a given since then.
nowadays the technology and latency improvement will enable mmos to put in more "skill" and less "stats".
so i am confident in the future.
Wildstar could have been, I think their gameplay engine is solid enough. But then the whole design around it was kind of a fail... for one, the telegraph should require much more precision, for 2 the camera should not be able to go back that much (a closer distance is more engaging, in wildstar you barely can see the enemies models...). So yeah, it would have needed a different school of thought. What we got is a top down game with everybody able to casts telegraphs that are way to big.
 
anyway. blablablabla.
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			Op is this your first MMO? This happens in every single MMO to date. The high end raiders will always end up being raid loggers because there simply is nothing else to do once you have the best stuff or can only get it via raid. Other than that you can farm mats/money but that's about it. No company can keep up with the rate of player consumption	
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Op is this your first MMO? This happens in every single MMO to date. The high end raiders will always end up being raid loggers because there simply is nothing else to do once you have the best stuff or can only get it via raid. Other than that you can farm mats/money but that's about it. No company can keep up with the rate of player consumption
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every single mmo like Gw2 and Eso ?
 
Wildstar is part of an older design philosophy of mmo (and most probably the last of its kind btw).
 
linear, stat progression funnelled engame mmos are a dying breed.
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every single mmo like Gw2 and Eso ?
 
Wildstar is part of an older design philosophy of mmo (and most probably the last of its kind btw).
 
linear, stat progression funnelled engame mmos are a dying breed.
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Yeah! Because running GA 6 weeks in a row and only getting a duplicate of my offspec healing esper hands was much fun!
 
Because running very difficult content that supposidly only 1% of the population ever completes, 7 weeks in a row and still not getting the pants I needed from that place even after the 16 weeks of being able to clear it is so much fun!
 
My guild stopped doing GA before I was able to get all the parts I needed from GA, I was getting Datascape gear before I had appropriate gear from GA.
Let me tell you how "fun" that was.
 
I would take "BORING" over "Mildly *cupcake*ing infuriating" anyday of the week when it comes to content that takes SKILL to clear.
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I didn't see him limit it to GW2 and ESO.  And you have no statistical backing for that which you claim.
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statistics are all over the place if you look for them. they maybe not be 100% accurate, but precise enough
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I hate to be that guy, but this is super contradictory.  If the statistics aren't accurate, why use them?
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trust me.
i am eldan.
statistics are all over the place if you look for them. they maybe not be 100% accurate, but precise enough that you can understand where the bulk of the AAA mmos playerbase (speaking for western world here) prefer to spend their time and money and game time.
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			Bottom line, just because you, and maybe a handful of other people you talk to, are bored with raiding, does not mean that the entire community is.	
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Bottom line, just because you, and maybe a handful of other people you talk to, are bored with raiding, does not mean that the entire community is.
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Avatar111, I'm just curious about what DS gear does in protogames. I've run it with some folks that are on SD (so not DS geared yet, but pretty dang powerful). While it is certainly easier, it's not trivialized like the other dungeons by their gear. This is mainly due to Bev-O-Rage, which can kill a group despite gear if they aren't able to execute well, though there are some other challenges that present problems (like the security guard in the prison break that is unkillable once he shows up).Is Protogames still fun (albeit unnecessary due to having no upgrades for you) or is it just as trivialized as the other content by your gear?
 
(this doesn't add to any arguments in this thread, I'm just curious)	
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people are burning out. a lot only log in for raids and not feeling the rest of the game.
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Avatar111, I'm just curious about what DS gear does in protogames. I've run it with some folks that are on SD (so not DS geared yet, but pretty dang powerful). While it is certainly easier, it's not trivialized like the other dungeons by their gear. This is mainly due to Bev-O-Rage, which can kill a group despite gear if they aren't able to execute well, though there are some other challenges that present problems (like the security guard in the prison break that is unkillable once he shows up).
 
Is Protogames still fun (albeit unnecessary due to having no upgrades for you) or is it just as trivialized as the other content by your gear?
 
(this doesn't add to any arguments in this thread, I'm just curious)
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Avatar111, I'm just curious about what DS gear does in protogames. I've run it with some folks that are on SD (so not DS geared yet, but pretty dang powerful). While it is certainly easier, it's not trivialized like the other dungeons by their gear. This is mainly due to Bev-O-Rage, which can kill a group despite gear if they aren't able to execute well, though there are some other challenges that present problems (like the security guard in the prison break that is unkillable once he shows up).
 
Is Protogames still fun (albeit unnecessary due to having no upgrades for you) or is it just as trivialized as the other content by your gear?
 
(this doesn't add to any arguments in this thread, I'm just curious)
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I'll just sit on the sidelines until I see the analysis that answers the one question I have for this statement.
 
How many people is "a lot"?
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most raiding guilds attrition is faster than their recruiting is.
 
oh, but i do lack the official numbers about that one too.
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Well, I suppose if your guild is only interested in logging in on raiding night and isn't constantly helping to run lower content in order to attune and have fun with lower-level members, I could logically see why you'd be correct.
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i suppose. we could carry them thru shiphands and crimelords with a finger in our nose fully DS geared.
 
but it is too boring for most of our raiders, and it also make the new player experience a bit lame... to be carried like that by people that can do 5 times their dmg.
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trust me.
i am eldan.
statistics are all over the place if you look for them. they maybe not be 100% accurate, but precise enough that you can understand where the bulk of the AAA mmos playerbase (speaking for western world here) prefer to spend their time and money and game time.
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i suppose. we could carry them thru shiphands and crimelords with a finger in our nose fully DS geared.
 
but it is too boring for most of our raiders, and it also make the new player experience a bit lame... to be carried like that by people that can do 5 times their dmg.
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I've never found it boring to take new players through dungeons.
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You can also make up your own games within the game with people you are acquainted with.  Example: Thursdays, my guild does hide-and-seek in somebody's housing plot with the UI off (not as easy as it sounds).  Tie whatever drinking game you want to it if you so desire.  I just have fun doing things with my guild.  If it's trivial, we joke around.  if it's hard, we put on our serious face.
 
Helps take the edge off.
 
If you don't find anything in the game enjoyable, I do not have a solution for you.	
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I don't think you properly appreciate how incredibly large the power differentials are for gear between the Super-Users and the rest of us, Vic.
 
However, the part in red should be entirely possible to implement for endgame content, now that iLevels exist and are so clearly linked to the components of endgame progression that we're discussing. I like this idea very much, even better than disabling raid gear outside of raids.
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For what it's worth, I will never take new players through the level 20 dungeons as DPS. It trivializes the experience too much for me (and I don't feel like it gives a good representation of the dungeon anyway).
 
I do go as a tank, though. I find it still retains enough challenge for the at-level DPS because you can't just burn everything down in a few seconds. They actually do have to participate, even if I'm kind of unkillable.
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What, rallied down? Even I'm not unkillable if my healer dies and I'm rallied down.
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I didn't mean literally unkillable, but it takes a lot.
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You can also make up your own games within the game with people you are acquainted with.  Example: Thursdays, my guild does hide-and-seek in somebody's housing plot with the UI off (not as easy as it sounds).  Tie whatever drinking game you want to it if you so desire.  I just have fun doing things with my guild.  If it's trivial, we joke around.  if it's hard, we put on our serious face.
 
Helps take the edge off.
 
If you don't find anything in the game enjoyable, I do not have a solution for you.
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I can confirm that we are getting new players. I have been experimenting with classes I did not play during beta or launch. I am also revisiting classes That were not my cup of tea at the time.
 
Since I have to start over every time, I have noticed the two starter areas have been feeling less and less lonely. This excludes prime game time from 6-7 CST. The 7 to 14 areas have some people moving around at all times. During prime game time a few days ago, I was near the town of Gallow in Algoroc, and me and four others took on a rock golem raid boss. He had to have been one. We did not make a dent in him, and he one shot killed me.
 
The increase may be due to the game turning 1 in about three months. I look forward to what the devs have planned for that. I am sure we will get the next drop around that time.	
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I mean, if it was that extreme and I didn't like it, I'd keep a set of dungeoning gear for lower levels.  But I've never felt that invincible, even in Hycrest, if I rally down.
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