136243-why-do-people-defend-this

== Content ==
			
There are people that have degrees and the knowledge to create working networks, code, games to run big MMOs.   ESO had some quest bugs at launch (quest bugs), GW2 was fine (quest bugs), it was fine at f2p, ESO was fine at f2p, WoW has issues for a day maybe 2 ( and not creating character issues)...FF wasnt great at relaunch (ques)  but not like this...SWTOR was ok at launch....even Archaeage wasnt this bad, at least you could sit in a que and get in and play in 6 hours.....
 
Its no excuse.
 
If I take my car to jiffy lube and they tell me, wait another day, they are trying, could you do better?  Its their *cupcake*ing job.  Other MMOs with bigger bases have servers and code to handle it.  Can I do it, NO...thats not the point...the point is, this is their job.  If they can't do it, they are BAD,.  Other companys have people that CAN.
 
 
A heart surgeon that tries really hard and lets everyone friggin die does not get a golf clap from me, he might put in 1000 hours, try really hard, know some basics, but other heart surgeons that actually know what the *cupcake* they are doing are doing their job.  Its the SAME thing.  Either you have people that can do their job or you don't.  They don't.  Other MMO's have way more intricate infrastructures and work.
 
Making excuses is retarded.  Either you know how to do a job or you don't.  They don't.
 
Saying give them a break they are putting in hours is your acceptance of horseshit and the politically correct world.  Saying its "different" from other networks and you don't understand is garbage.  They don't just teach one class of Wildstar Network Engineering in college.  Its literally the same same everywhere, just some companys have people who can do it well.
 
It was expected for a day maybe 2...five...nope.  
 
Could be fun game, like the idea, had fun while I played, but from reading old posts from first launch....great product with and idea with little expertise.	
----
			How many times does this need to be said, we like the game, we hate the servers.	
----
			I just think you don't have much going on with yourself right now if this is bothering ya. I'm not defending them or anything, but I think it's pointless if you know the end result. That's if you're catching my drift ;) ?	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
On the flip side why are people attacking this? It's par for the course in the Genre. FFXIV was down for a week at relaunch, BC release was a mess for WoW, ESO had plenty of problems at launch as well...
 
That's what happens when brand new code gets sent out to live servers. Bugs come up and issues arise. No game's ever been exempt to that fact (even GW and GW 2 had some serious issues (*cough* Karka *cough*).
----
			
On the flip side why are people attacking this? It's par for the course in the Genre. FFXIV was down for a week at relaunch, BC release was a mess for WoW, ESO had plenty of problems at launch as well...
 
That's what happens when brand new code gets sent out to live servers. Bugs come up and issues arise. No game's ever been exempt to that fact (even GW and GW 2 had some serious issues (*cough* Karka *cough*).	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
On the flip side why are people attacking this? It's par for the course in the Genre. FFXIV was down for a week at relaunch, BC release was a mess for WoW, ESO had plenty of problems at launch as well...
 
That's what happens when brand new code gets sent out to live servers. Bugs come up and issues arise. No game's ever been exempt to that fact (even GW and GW 2 had some serious issues (*cough* Karka *cough*).
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
ffxiv launch being bad is a bold faced lie....myself and my entire guild had zero issues...
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I just think you don't have much going on with yourself right now if this is bothering ya. I'm not defending them or anything, but I think it's pointless if you know the end result. That's if you're catching my drift ;) ?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
ffxiv launch being bad is a bold faced lie....myself and my entire guild had zero issues...
----
			I heard there were issues loggin in... is that true?	
----
			
I don't think anyone's defending that "oh it's okay that the servers are pooping all over the floor and then smearing it across the walls" but at this point I don't see why so many people are just going "FIX IT FIX IT FIX IT FIX IT"
 
What more can anyone do?  Are you expecting them to magically hire "SUPER GENIUS SOFTWARE GUYS" to know how all their code works and magically find the issue?
 
No one is excusing or defending that it's not a huge issue - people are just tiered of everyone screaming doom and gloom non-stop because there's coding and server issues.
 
So unless you're offering to go in and work on their code for them... Time to chill out and wait for them to ask for any help we can give.	
----
			
ESO had some quests that were bugged.  FF literally had some ques.  STWOR had very little.  GW2 had very little, some quests.
 
The point is, wtf is going on.  You can't even get into character creation half the time.  Its broken.  Seriously, you can not get into making a character.  
 
And you ask what is the point?  Uhhh, the point is, the most fundamental aspect of a game is non functional.  
 
 
The point is that I have seen 100 threads with lines of , they are working their best, they don't get any sleep, at least they are trying...etc...could you do better...what do you know.....
 
I dont know shit.
 
But that is besides the fact, because I know other games have people that DO KNOW how to do it, they dont...thats the point.	
----
			I haven't really seen anyone arguing that what's happening right now is actually alright and good. It isn't. It's frustrating at best and a huge cluster-cupcake at worst. But a lot of the responses it's getting here on the forums are way out of line and shall therefore be mocked with extreme prejudice. Or somesuch.
			
				
	Edited October 3, 2015 by Wylf	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
FFXIV was down for a week at relaunch
----
			Why do people ask open ended question's in a post to draw (bait) other's into a debate by asking or making comment's that have already been posted dozen's of times by other's?
			
				
	Edited October 3, 2015 by Equa1ity	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Multiple servers were down... This wasn't that long ago, do people really not remember getting a full refund for that week because the servers were crap and a half? Did people forget Yoshida literally crying during an apology to us players for the problems? I logged into Entity from Taiwan yesterday, no issues, no queue, does that mean the servers here are fine? Because that's identical logic to the people suggesting FFXIV ARR's relaunch was anything but a cluster.
 
It sucks, it's getting fixed, everyone keep your cupcakes in your pants....
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It was not down it was just hard to login due to the que servers being disabled. But if you spam 0 you would get in after a few minutes once someone had logged off. This one I haven't been able to play for more than 3 hours in 5 days of spamming login.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I don't think anyone's defending that "oh it's okay that the servers are pooping all over the floor and then smearing it across the walls" but at this point I don't see why so many people are just going "FIX IT FIX IT FIX IT FIX IT"
 
What more can anyone do?  Are you expecting them to magically hire "SUPER GENIUS SOFTWARE GUYS" to know how all their code works and magically find the issue?
 
No one is excusing or defending that it's not a huge issue - people are just tiered of everyone screaming doom and gloom non-stop because there's coding and server issues.
 
So unless you're offering to go in and work on their code for them... Time to chill out and wait for them to ask for any help we can give.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It sucks, it's getting fixed, everyone keep your cupcakes in your pants....
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Uh, I wasn't able to play for that full week prior to the day long maintenance a week after launch. Yoshida refunded us all for the week and deeply apologized... I recall some one at SE crying over it too...  What I said was most definitely and demonstrably not a bald faced lie.
 
EDIT: Yea, I thought I remembered that right. Yosihda actually cried while apologizing for the launch problems. Do you cry when apologizing for your  relaunch that sees servers down for days and extensive maintenance because it was so smooth? 
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JE9G3ByXKIE
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
There are people that have degrees and the knowledge to create working networks, code, games to run big MMOs.   ESO had some quest bugs at launch (quest bugs), GW2 was fine (quest bugs), it was fine at f2p, ESO was fine at f2p, WoW has issues for a day maybe 2 ( and not creating character issues)...FF wasnt great at relaunch (ques)  but not like this...SWTOR was ok at launch....even Archaeage wasnt this bad, at least you could sit in a que and get in and play in 6 hours.....
 
Its no excuse.
 
If I take my car to jiffy lube and they tell me, wait another day, they are trying, could you do better?  Its their *cupcake*ing job.  Other MMOs with bigger bases have servers and code to handle it.  Can I do it, NO...thats not the point...the point is, this is their job.  If they can't do it, they are BAD,.  Other companys have people that CAN.
 
 
A heart surgeon that tries really hard and lets everyone friggin die does not get a golf clap from me, he might put in 1000 hours, try really hard, know some basics, but other heart surgeons that actually know what the *cupcake*they are doing are doing their job.  Its the SAME thing.  Either you have people that can do their job or you don't.  They don't.  Other MMO's have way more intricate infrastructures and work.
 
Making excuses is retarded.  Either you know how to do a job or you don't.  They don't.
 
Saying give them a break they are putting in hours is your acceptance of horseshit and the politically correct world.  Saying its "different" from other networks and you don't understand is garbage.  They don't just teach one class of Wildstar Network Engineering in college.  Its literally the same same everywhere, just some companys have people who can do it well.
 
It was expected for a day maybe 2...five...nope.  
 
Could be fun game, like the idea, had fun while I played, but from reading old posts from first launch....great product with and idea with little expertise.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yoshida was crying because of the overwhelming positive reaction to the relaunch, not the servers being down lol
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
On the flip side why are people attacking this? It's par for the course in the Genre. FFXIV was down for a week at relaunch, BC release was a mess for WoW, ESO had plenty of problems at launch as well...
 
That's what happens when brand new code gets sent out to live servers. Bugs come up and issues arise. No game's ever been exempt to that fact (even GW and GW 2 had some serious issues (*cough* Karka *cough*).
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
i played launch week off FFXIV and it was NO WHERE close to this, and by play i do mean PLAY. ESO.... yea uh they aint doing so hot atm even after "f2p" sooo..... 
 
the question is more on why is this allowed to be the norm... STILL!!?? like its 2015 games should be WAY better at launches/re launches/ f2p/etc by now. that is their big HEY LOOK AT OUR GAME!! moment to shine. it shouldnt be HEY LOOK AT OUR GAME....wait... oh.. um... hol... hold on... um.... crap!!.... just a moment folks.. heh heh... oh man.... almost there!!... GOT IT!! HEY LOO.... it broke again?!... uh... excuse us a moment...
 
THAT shouldnt be gaming now and its *cupcake* poor that it is. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
becuase the first words out of a person that defends this stuff is "give them time" "its a launch, this happens" "this must be your first mmo launch?" it has LITERALLY become the norm in it being OKAY to have a crappy launch for your game. yes each MMO is different but that is your (not you in general btw...) baby and as its caretaker should now how to fix it or have a back plan at the ready if things fall through.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Why do people act as if we "allow" this. You have  5-10 million lines of code comprising a dynamic virtual world and you WILL have problems no matter how fancy the paper your degree is printed on.
 
Building and running an MMO is nothing like other construction projects or even most software programs. They are truly massive in scale in ways that us players apparently either forget or don't seem to understand in the first place.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
becuase the first words out of a person that defends this stuff is "give them time" "its a launch, this happens" "this must be your first mmo launch?" it has LITERALLY become the norm in it being OKAY to have a crappy launch for your game. yes each MMO is different but that is your (not you in general btw...) baby and as its caretaker should now how to fix it or have a back plan at the ready if things fall through.
 
it took them 4 days to roll out new servers and they still have yet to fix the character loop thats been happening since the launch.... theres no excuse for that. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yes, it IS the norm, because there simply is no true alternative. Every launch and relaunch has bugs to some degree, that's the nature of the beast. You don't complain after paying to go on a fishing trip and don't manage to catch any fish, because you know what you are getting into. It's similar (though not a perfect analogy) with MMO's
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Because you don't pay to go on a guided fishing trip to eat fish, it's entertainment. And entertainment doesn't always go as planned. Sometimes you buy tickets to a Football game and it gets rained out.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yes, but many of us have been through this so many times it's just not worth it anymore. Many will just go back to the fishing hole they know is reliable. If we can't even get a taste for what the lake has to offer why should we keep casting our line?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yes, but many of us have been through this so many times it's just not worth it anymore. Many will just go back to the fishing hole they know is reliable. If we can't even get a taste for what the lake has to offer why should we keep casting our line?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Because you don't pay to go on a guided fishing trip to eat fish, it's entertainment. And entertainment doesn't always go as planned. Sometimes you buy tickets to a Football game and it gets rained out.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Because the fish from that reliable hole are stinky, small, and taste like butt.
 
I mean imperfect analogy is imperfect.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Because you don't pay to go on a guided fishing trip to eat fish, it's entertainment. And entertainment doesn't always go as planned. Sometimes you buy tickets to a Football game and it gets rained out.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
They usually hand out raincoats or umbrellas should that happen, or close off the top of the stadium if it has that capability.
 
And, you can usually at least get into the stadium.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I debated dignifying this, but I guess I will. You can log onto the character select screen (get into the stadium) and watch your avatars (players) do nothing....
 
^^ the logical equivalent to your suggestion of getting into the stadium even when no game is going to be played^^
 
I must note of course, that many people are playing the game, (albeit with lag).
----
			
People defend this as it is a good game, I have already leveled two toons to lvl 20 and I'm having a blast.
 
Don't get me wrong when the servers go down it is a bit dissapointing but I don't moan like a baby that has had it's dummie taken away.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
People defend this as it is a good game, I have already leveled two toons to lvl 20 and I'm having a blast.
 
Don't get me wrong when the servers go down it is a bit dissapointing but I don't moan like a baby that has had it's dummie taken away.
----
			In a few days they'll be whining about something else, dungeons too hard, etc. 	
----
			
you said it yourself a few times
{| class="blockquote"
had fun while I played- .great product/idea
----
			
Because people aren't smart enough to understand that they may like the game but dislike how it's currently run. Talking about some of the normal people, not the abnormal ones, aka FANBOIZ. The fact is they took their time to prepare and when the time came they were totally unprepared. There's no sane excuse for this. Whoever tries to fog that fact up with "MMM YEAH OTHER GAME HAD ISSUE X YEARS AGO", is out of his *cupcake*ing mind especially considering how shit the launch of this game was, the official launch I mean... anyone remember the name reservation tragedy? I do. I won't forget the fact that I was charged for services I did not receive, also. 
 
In the end it does not matter. The only thing that matters is for this damned game to work and get the developers in shape cause they've been slacking off for the past year catering to fanboys who would be pleased with a turd sprinkled with candy. But now since the gates are open to everyone I honestly hope the situation improves and people start coming and spending enough money so this game can continue development instead of following Warhammer Online into an early grave.
 
So the next time you see some fanboy telling the devs it's ok, smack him over the mouth. It's not ok, it's extremely damaging to the future of this game.	
----
			I really dislike the all or nothing thing. White Knight or Black Knight. This was awful, this was not good or smooth or no big deal. This was horribly bad. There have been worse but I'd be stretching to come up with one. Having said that, I can't help but feel bad for the guys who obviously worked all night fixing this. It can't have been fun and I appreciate it. BUT. Really, this was not handled well.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Because people aren't smart enough to understand that they may like the game but dislike how it's currently run. Talking about some of the normal people, not the abnormal ones, aka FANBOIZ. The fact is they took their time to prepare and when the time came they were totally unprepared. There's no sane excuse for this. Whoever tries to fog that fact up with "MMM YEAH OTHER GAME HAD ISSUE X YEARS AGO", is out of his *cupcake*ing mind especially considering how shit the launch of this game was, the official launch I mean... anyone remember the name reservation tragedy? I do. I won't forget the fact that I was charged for services I did not receive, also. 
 
In the end it does not matter. The only thing that matters is for this damned game to work and get the developers in shape cause they've been slacking off for the past year catering to fanboys who would be pleased with a turd sprinkled with candy. But now since the gates are open to everyone I honestly hope the situation improves and people start coming and spending enough money so this game can continue development instead of following Warhammer Online into an early grave.
 
So the next time you see some fanboy telling the devs it's ok, smack him over the mouth. It's not ok, it's extremely damaging to the future of this game.
----
			 Why do all these people keep pointing out all these wonderful game launches.. I don't think they where really there to see the crap other games went through at launch.. lol	
----
			
Why would you compare launch, It is not because others game failed their launch, that is supposed to be ok. I can understand that many things can go wrong and it's not possible to simulate several thousands people playing on one server and that coding errors can be tricky, but don't say WoW, SWTOR failed, so it's ok.
 
In the end, the product people asked for is not really here. However, they are doing their best to fix them and trust me, they are the first who wants to be done with that and have their game running smoothly. They are not doing that for fun. Plus there is one  more thing, the game is F2P, so you don't pay money, and even if you do pay money, it does not give you the right to be a Jerk. You know  this sentences, A customer is always right? Well, it's wrong. 
 
So now, either you take the game as it is for the moment ( which is actually not that bad for the week-end, i got almost no lagg this morning and yes we are a saturday, no queue even if i logged in at 11am, i paid tho ) and you be a good guy, reporting the bug so they can fix them quicker Or you leave and come back later, checking the forum/ Twitter and see when you can come back Or you just give up on that game and do something else.
 
A year ago, i really enjoy the game but they did really bad choices, they are doing better call now (even if it's not perfect), so we will see how it goes but don't think you are being useful showing your hate and frustration on a forum, nor looking good to other people.
			
				
	Edited October 3, 2015 by Kissqt	
----
			
I find it interesting how the baseline defense is to compare this transition from P2P to F2P with a game launch.
And yet it still compares unfavorably.
 
Look at other games that transitioned from P2P to F2P. DDO, LOTRO, RO, TERA, GW2, etc.
If you tell me that this is the "standard" thing that happens with them, you're either lying to me or to yourself.
			
				
	Edited October 3, 2015 by Yellye	
----
			
your SO right. tell them theres NO EXCUSE for this ridiculous nonsense and to turn the "problems" switch back to 'OFF' .............. Enough is ENOUGH already.
 
 
 
ffs
			
				
	Edited October 3, 2015 by Viconaut	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
On the flip side why are people attacking this? It's par for the course in the Genre. FFXIV was down for a week at relaunch, BC release was a mess for WoW, ESO had plenty of problems at launch as well...
 
That's what happens when brand new code gets sent out to live servers. Bugs come up and issues arise. No game's ever been exempt to that fact (even GW and GW 2 had some serious issues (*cough* Karka *cough*).
----
			We are just tired of the constant attacks, we do not know whats going on, I do not care how much experience you have, it does not give you any more right to yell at people over it, you do not own them, they are not your venting bags, if you have such an issue then send a letter to the proper sources. And people yelling at the employees over and over will not change things.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 Why do all these people keep pointing out all these wonderful game launches.. I don't think they where really there to see the crap other games went through at launch.. lol
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
FFXIV wasn't down for a week.  o:  Just had a chunk of players that couldn't play because servers were too crowded and the queue system was not working as intended.  
 
Regardless, I've not even tried to play yet because issues like this have come up with almost every MMO I've ever played.  On the plus side, I was able to play Star Ocean 4 from start to finish, and I've been meaning to get around to completing it for years.  
 
I really hope these issues don't scare away new players, but there's only so much you can prepare for with a f2p launch where you can't even estimate the number of people that will try to play your game.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
True, and not disagreeing, but wow bc? That is like 8 years ago? Now they should be able to handle that better.
----
			I'll admit, I'm starting to get a little frustrated with queues.  They should have planned ahead for the influx of players.  All the other games that went F2P had that foresight.  Obviously the additional realms are not helping the queues.	
----
			
I really don't understand. As someone said before, we like the game, we hate the servers. I had a great time so far and I will keep playing, even if I have to wait more days, the game is worth it in my opinion. If you think otherwise, if you compare this MMO with others, why don't you just go and play any of those other MMO's. If you want a new cell-phone, you might want to wait a bit since your company will release a newer version soon. You don't have it yet. They say we have to push the release date back. You don't like that, but still, you might want to wait. If you aren't patient enough, feel free to buy another one.
 
This game has its problem, yes. This game is worth the wait though. 	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You don't complain after paying to go on a fishing trip and don't manage to catch any fish, because you know what you are getting into. It's similar (though not a perfect analogy) with MMO's
----
			Need water... to.. much... salt............	
----
			Gameplay on Entity 2 and Warhound was much better today for me.  No login loop, account inventory worked, no loot lag, etc.  It's getting there.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Actually, I think the analogy works pretty well and was followed to its logical conclusion in the quoted sequence. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Gameplay on Entity 2 and Warhound was much better today for me.  No login loop, account inventory worked, no loot lag, etc.  It's getting there.
----
			
the lag is terrible, is unbelievable...i dont know what else to say, i never experienced such thing....
I am baffled at why or how some ppl are defending this desaster
5 DAYS HAVE PASSED, FIVE DAYSSSSSSSSSSSS	
----
			
And yet people are still here, venting.
 
I'm convinced that not many people are leaving from these issues.	
----
			
Logged on 3 different toons and also did an instanced quest on one of them.  0 login looping, 0 lag, 0 loot lag.
 
Only "problem" was sitting in a que for about 10 minutes - Given that when WoD launched there were 7 hour ques several days after, it's  not a big issue for me.  It'll clear up after a bit.
 
Overall they fixed the issues and all we had to do was relax and wait.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Go berate the poor kid at the box office the next time a sporting event you paid for tickets too gets delayed, It definitely makes you look like a sensible and well adjusted adult. Just ask all the people doing it here!
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
And yet people are still here, venting.
 
I'm convinced that not many people are leaving from these issues.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I don't think a few dozen players, many of whom have been here since launch, are indicative of the overall stay/leave ratio.
 
The more germane question is whether the big group of people not bothering to post in the forums are going to stay/leave.
----
			
I think what people are losing sight of is that, yes, other games have had bad launches but they ultimately ended up fixing them. Some immediately, some took a bit longer. I see progress being made by carbine, so I am not concerned. Fixes take time to confirm, contain, define, investigate, theorize, apply, test, and review after.
 
I think the OP said something about going to Jiffy lube for an oil change. Fair enough, but all their doing is draining out the old oil, putting one plug in and pouring in new oil. My eight year old son can change the oil on my car. I know because he helps me. However, if I took my car to Jiffy Lube and asked them to do a complete engine swap, upgrade from drum to disc brakes, add a new posi track rear end and install a new stereo, yeah, I would expect it to take some time.
 
I know people will claim that "This game has been out for a year, it shouldn't have these issues" - that is only partially correct. This game, as it stands right now, has only been out since Monday. The old Wildstar at launch and this Wildstar at F2P are different. A lot of new stuff is being introduced and the entire core of the game re-segmented to fit the F2P model.
 
I feel carbine could have been better prepared, yes. Definitely. Why they weren't isn't a concern of mine. What they're doing to fix it is my concern; and as I said above, they're making progress. Incremental progress when everyone is expecting leaps and bounds of progress, but it's still progress just the same. I would rather have them going slowly to fix it, and take their time, then randomly going "lets see if this works..... nope? ok.... /edits some codes, changes some wires.... lets try this!"
			
				
	Edited October 3, 2015 by Dreaded 88	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
the lag is terrible, is unbelievable...i dont know what else to say, i never experienced such thing....
I am baffled at why or how some ppl are defending this desaster
5 DAYS HAVE PASSED, FIVE DAYSSSSSSSSSSSS
----
			
Been here since May 2013.
Supported this game always.
It is a beautiful game, but I can not agree with the way things are handled now...
Their used to be a time when Carbine was more responsive towards its audience.
 
I do understand a big influx in new players can stir up server stability but this should not be an excuse for the poor way of communicating. Solve the problems and keep us informed please, only thing I am asking.
.	
----
			Haven't been having any problems today. Only times I have logged off were for the maintenance. I'm no longer getting stuck in the login-loop and am enjoying the game.
			
				
	Edited October 3, 2015 by RunningEXE	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
At the bare  minimum the players in-game certainly seem a lot more pleasant than the few on the forums. Even the maintenance that was just announced on Entity got some groans but nothing exceptionally negative was being spammed.
----
			Lets face it people just want an excuse to whine at others, an excuse to vent because they are not strong enough to deal with thier own crap.	
----
			The gameplay was smooth this morning.  Then the servers went down 30 minutes for maintenance.  After I logged back in everyone had lag again (delayed actions, not leaving combat, not entering combat, one mob dying and everything getting stuck, etc.) and logged out in disgust.	
----