Report 1133

Report #1133
Skillset: Aeonics Skill: Mindclock
 Org: Sentinels Status: Completed Nov 2016
Furies' Decision:
Solution 3.
Problem: Mindclock currently gives a chance of "shrugging" the aeon affliction
when given. Most sources of aeon require two attacks, making mindclock both
stronger, and more impactful than most shrugging skills. This report aims to
change mindclock to keep utility but fix the impact on aeon.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #1: Change Mindclock to be an active skill that can
 remove truetime from a target.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #2: Change Mindclock to act as an extra quicksilver, it
 would take 3 basic aeon hits to cause aeon, then it
 would be stripped and have to be put back up. As
 well, change Mindclock to be a 4 second equilibrium
 cost, with Aeonics users having a reduced 3 second
 equilibrium should the Crystal Spire be constructed.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #3: Change mindclock to be an automatically refreshing
 defence that applies a second layer of quicksilver
 every 20 seconds (15 if construct is active and user
 already has mindclock). The refresh cooldown will
 apply smartly, meaning after it has been stripped.
 The time can be adjusted.
Player Comments:
---[Synkarin on 11/12 @ 20:47 writes]:
No support for sol 1 - truetime is currently needed to combat institute, giving
them a way to remove truetime forces people to spam violet/kether to remove
rubies, because if they get into the aeon/shatterplex combo, they'll be unable
to cure out before timequake. It's too strong. Sol 3 seems severely nerfed. I
think sol 2 is the best of these.
---[Shuyin on 11/12 @ 20:51 writes]:
Solution 2 only. Truetime is already very key when fighting aeon users and it
already lasts a finite amount of time
---[Shedrin on 11/13 @ 01:22 writes]:
I think the largest problem with mindclock isn't necessarily that it resists
aeon (it can be worked around with enough time), but the rng aspect of it. If it
was more predictable, I think there wouldn't be much problem. In this, Solution
2 is the most simple, though would be a significant nerf in long combats. If
Solution 2 is implemented, I think the eq should be lowered (either base, or
through the Crystalspire construct). This would make reupping it mid-combat more
tenable, otherwise there could easily be situations where it does very little.
---[Shedrin on 11/13 @ 01:34 writes]:
For Solution 1, there's two currently outstanding issues with the
Shatterplex->Timequake combo. In an optimal scenario, if the Institute gets the
timing right and chooses the correct Malefact option, they kill in 4s, if they
choose the wrong option, the target escapes in 3 actions. With amnesiacloud, it
allows the Institute to need malefactgem. With truetime, unless the Institute
has 5 balance bonus (usually requiring artie candy), then there's the
possibility that the target can get 4 actions to escape a kill even if the
Institute does everything correctly. A truetime strip would solve the latter,
while removing amnesiacloud would solve the former. Then the current
malefactgem->shatterplex->timequake setup that's been balanced around can
function without other interference.
---[Wobou on 11/13 @ 07:28 writes]:
My preference is for solution 2 because it's adding something but keeps it
inline with the type of ability it is currently. I think there should be a
cooldown to put it back up (like vitality) to prevent people from being able to
entirely turtle against aeon attacks through the use of mindclock and
quicksilver.
---[Tremula on 11/13 @ 07:45 writes]:
I've taken Shedrin's comments into account for making Solution 2 more manageable
since it is our construct ability. The balance has been changed from 6 seconds
to 4, with Aeonics users having the balance reduced to 3 seconds if the
construct is raised.
---[Synkarin on 11/13 @ 14:47 writes]:
I've heard from several people in Hallifax that the circumstances of this report
are a little underhanded and shady. Tremula, can you delete the report until
further discussion can take place with members of Hallifax? I don't think
mindclock is such a pressing issue that it needs to be reported this month if at
all.
---[Demartel on 11/13 @ 16:17 writes]:
I am not sure any of these solutions need to be made and in listening to active
Hallifax combatants I am under the impression that little consultation was made
with them on the report.
---[Shango on 11/13 @ 19:40 writes]:
Support for solution 2
---[Wobou on 11/13 @ 20:34 writes]:
Consensus is a good thing to have for changes but this report should succeed and
fail on its own merits not its context. Realistically there are another 2 weeks
of review time for this report and so far I haven't seen any comments outside of
Shedrin's comment noting that sol. 2 would be a nerf for long fights that are in
any way against the substance of this report. Speaking of Shedrin's concerns,
what if mindclock was an automatically refreshing defense that granted a second
layer of quicksilver every x seconds (just to spitball I'm thinking 15 seconds
for aeonics users and 20s for construct users) the cooldown should fire when it
actually blocks aeon so it should not allow aeon immunity with poor timing. This
would take the RNG out the ability ensuring that it always helps you against
Aeon, but also stopping RNG from potentially denying an aeon-attacker
repeatedly, the numbers will need to be adjusted of course.
---[Shango on 11/13 @ 20:43 writes]:
@Wobou interesting solution fix...I'd support that so the user can focus on
other things than maintaining a balance costing defense midbattle. Just a matter
of coding it
---[Falmiis on 11/13 @ 23:58 writes]:
Yeah I support Wobou's idea. Solution 3 is really weak. Solution 2 would be a
severe nerf in that it will really only prevent one application of aeon for each
engagement and then that would be it. Nobody is going to spend 4s of equilibrium
to try to put it back up mid-fight. Solution 1 changes the skill from a
defensive mechanic to an offensive mechanic, mostly for Institute. Construct
users would have very little use for it.
---[Shango on 11/14 @ 05:26 writes]:
To note, with Report 1293 being made active as well, the passive shrugging to
about half all physical afflictions AND Aeon shrugging from Mindclock does seem
fairly unbalanced, so something has to give with both being present
---[Shango on 11/14 @ 05:29 writes]:
And the ability to shrug aeon is by far the more problematic given the priority
of that affliction towards successful combat strategies both solo and especially
in groups.
---[Tremula on 11/14 @ 20:15 writes]:
Solution 3 has been changed to Wobou's suggestion.
---[Salome on 11/14 @ 20:18 writes]:
Agree with Synkarin on sol 1. Sol 3 seems more reasonable.
---[Shedrin on 11/14 @ 20:18 writes]:
To Synkarin's comment, there was some confusion and the ideas didn't get out to
everyone before the report was made which I'll take the blame for. Hopefully
that's been addressed and I think the report can continue. I like Wobou's idea
here, and it solves the rng issue.
---[Salome on 11/14 @ 20:23 writes]:
Support Wobou's idea.
---[Raeri on 11/15 @ 02:23 writes]:
Support for the Wobou-Solution 3.
---[Shedrin on 11/17 @ 14:48 writes]:
Some tweaked numbers for consideration on Sol3: 20s if Construct only, 15s for
Aeonics only, and 10s for Aeonics + Construct.
---[Synkarin on 11/19 @ 06:27 writes]:
I think these numbers need to be stretched out a bit. There isn't really a
difference between 10s and 15s. It takes 9s to put up aeon, and if they cure, at
12s they'll hit quicksilver again and mindclock is now back up. I think we
probably need do double those numbers.
---[Wobou on 11/19 @ 06:29 writes]:
I didn't specify this before but I would recommend that mindclock proc before
quicksilver rather than after. If it procs after quicksilver then the process of
aeoning a mindclock user becomes strip quicksilver -> strip mindclock -> strip
quicksilver -> actually aeon. If it procs before quicksilver then the process
becomes strip mindclock -> strip quicksilver -> aeon which is still a distinct
advantage for mindclock vs. others but isn't quite so punishing for the
attacker. It should give a distinct message so that the aeoner can adjust and
try to time the mindclock. Regarding Shedrin's numbers, 10s seems low to me but
I'm not sure if I know the current mindclock shrug rate to compare it. If my
suggestion is accepted and mindclock procs before quicksilver then 10s would
mean that after aeoning an aeonics user that it will have reset by the next
attempt (since it will have taken 3 attempts to aeon them at around ~3.5s
balance each).
---[Shuyin on 11/19 @ 06:52 writes]:
I agree with Synkarin and Wobou's current assessment. The current suggestion is
arguably more of a buff than a downgrade considering that aeon is about a 3s
balance. You'll be able to get exactly 1 aeon in before mindclock and
quicksilver comes up again. With that said, I still think solution 2 is the besy
way to go with this in mind.
---[Shedrin on 11/19 @ 16:26 writes]:
I didn't consider, but was assuming mindclock would be stripped first. For solo
aeon, aeon reliant strategies generally have less need to spam it, and instead
time it for a combo. Reliable mindclock helps avoid this. In groups, the same
consistency can ensure allies can followup, and higher aeon spam can potentially
get through the defense much quicker. Though in the case of no followup with low
amount of aeon users, it could be stronger, but that's also a tactical failure.
For reference, mindclock with Construct is very significant. Just ran a quick
test, it blocked 61/100 aeons.
---[Falmiis on 11/20 @ 23:55 writes]:
I just realised that mindclock can resist the quicksilver stripping aspect of
aeon. Maybe we can just start with removing that first.
---[Lerad on 11/25 @ 03:28 writes]:
I first thought the solutions were all very strong, but upon reading the
comments, I agree that solution 2 or 3 is the way to go. 20s for construct or
aeonics only, and 15s for both seems reasonable to me. Solution 2 gives a bigger
burden on active usage, with the possibility of pretty much becoming immune to
aeon by spamming timeclock ala reflection spamming if needed, though it's
decidedly more niche than reflections. I'll probably lean towards solution 3.