113417-request-why-people-left-easy-fix

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Some people say they left because it was too demanding in raids.  Some say it's because the attunements were too hard.  Some probably left because they were botting and got banned.  The truth is that is probably only why 5% of the people left.  
 
The time at which people started leaving in bulk is about a week after the changes to adventure and dungeon loot occured.
 
Why does it matter if we can get raid loot instead?
 
Well, what do you do when you're not raiding?  What do you do if you're not good or geared enough to raid?  What do you do if you play 14 hours a day and don't like dailies/pvp?
 
There's really not much to do because dungeons/adventures were taken out of the mix by making the purple loot harder to get then the gear from GA ....
 
I believe it's the first game that I play where the gear pre-raid is harder to get then raid gear.  There's a huge disparity in how much time it takes to get the items you want.  In raids it's pretty easy whereas if you're going for an adventure purple drop, you might be doing it over 500 times before you see it drop and win the roll.
 
Normally, in every MMO i play, I raise an alt for each class and gear it with the best gear pre-raid.  Looking back at when those changes happened, I think that's exactly when i stopped having fun raising alts.  I have 2 accounts and there's one of them I don't even play anymore, but still pay for the subscription.  As I am writing this post, i slowly realize that I should cancel it.  I haven't been running dungeons/adventures with my second account anymore because there's little to no chance of getting a reward other then eg points and a few silvers.
 
The idea behind people leaving if they were not getting gold really wasn't that bad.  It was "hardcore" and that's all there was to it.  Now, I understand why this change was done, but the long term effect is not only you're losing those that couldn't complete gold/silver runs because they screwed up and then people left but you're also losing everyone else.
 
It's easy to point a finger, but without a viable solution to the problem, it's a useless process.
 
You could just revert the looting system to what it used to be or you could build on those changes and make loot available to all again so there's a point to playing when you're EG capped and have done all your dailies for that day.
 
Let's say you keep the system exactly the way it is with 1 easily programmable change.  You add one chance to roll on a purple item based on how well you did with a simple if statement in front of all the other loot rules.
 
Gold:    100%
Silver:   50%
Bronze: 25%
 
If Completion = Gold then
  "Pick an item from the purple loot table"
Else
  If Completion = Silver then
....
 
Right now, I only have fun when I'm in raids.  Please bring back what used to represent 70% of my gaming experience.
 
If you agree with some or most of this post, please reply since this is what gives a post visibility for devs.
 
To back up my claim that this is why people left, I'll ask you one question:  Who are the people that still play Wildstar in general?  Those that raid ....  because in terms of effort/reward, that's the only reasonnable choice.
 
 
Edited answer to everyone :
 
I was writing a huge post answering and quoting everyone then I press post but I'm not logged in anymore /gg
 
Most of you guys are missing the point and get easily distracted or try to push their own perception in to make themselves feel better about themselves by randomly arguing.
 
Let's dumb it down a little:
 
Are dungeon/adventure loots worth the time you invest?
 
- Consider that you can buy most BoE cheap on the AH very quickly. (dead servers /shush)
- You can get any piece of crafted gear in a matter of seconds if you craft it yourself or minutes using the trade channel.
- You can get 0-3 pieces of loot in GA per week.  This number will increase as people in your guild start gearing up.
- You can get the rep items and EG items in what 3 weeks each with marginal time spent?  Not taking into account that dailies give a sizeable amount of gold and other rewards.
- How much time does it take to get a single purple drop in a gold run?  You also have to take into account that an offspec is most likely going to ninja it.
 
What activity to you enjoy the most in Wildstar?  PvP, dungeons/adventures, dailies, ah farming, gathering?
 
Now if your favorite activity outside raiding is not running dungeons/adventures ... then your opinion is a little bit irrelevent.  You probably still have one .... but we don't want to hear it.  It's about making dungeons/adventures worthwhile for those that like running them.
 
The next question is:  Do you think that those that liked running dungeons/adventures were happy about the loot changes or unhappy?
 
Straight off the bat, if you only run 1-3 dungeons/adventures per day.  This question is probably not for you since, you run dungeons/adventures very casually.  Outside of raids, I was still playing with over 10 irl friends and we ran dungeons/adventures every day.  Over 1-3 weeks after the loot changes, those guys/gals all left the game.  Now, you all have your own opinions about why people left, but refer to the question and focus on it.  Most of the people that didn't care are those that already got all their purple loot in gold runs including myself.
 
i think it's a general concensus that it's nice that people don't quit the runs every single time we miss gold, but was that change made at the expense of even more players that enjoyed running dungeons/adventures for loot and fun?
 
Nobody can argue that the loot is not even close to what it used to be.  Loot in adventures/dungeons except for a few rare blue items is crap considering you're not guaranteed a purple on gold anymore.  Far from that, I'd like to see the actual numbers from Carbine, but I'd say you probably have 1 in 200 chances of seeing the item you need drop then you still have to roll against your group if you're not with a full guild group.
 
Now, did a whole lot of people leave the game because their favorite activity was running dungeons and adventures and it stopped being worthwhile after the loot changes?
 
Again, there's no argument to be had here.  Yes, people did leave the game over time because of the loot changes.  On the other hand, I've never heard someone say i'm leaving the game because I keep making mistakes or I do 1.2k dps and people kick me out.  That would go in "This game is too hard for me department".
 
If the instance loot didn't change the way it did, would they still be playing?
 
They might not all be playing still, but I can assure you that they would have played for longer then they did and a good portion of them would still be around.  Even if they didn't have access to raids because they weren't good enough or they couldn't invest that much time into the game, they still had a fun and reliable activity.  For example:  I might not be able to raid like you are, but I'll raise 6 alts, start my own dynasty and gear them up with adventure/dungeon purple loot.  There was a worthwhile option for them.
 
What about those that enjoy adventures/dungeons that raid?  Don't you think that they'll eventually raise alts and want to gear them up?
 
Raising alts in Wildstar as it is, is the most expensive activity you can perform.  You'll have to buy everything off the AH ... pretty much.  Can you have fun pugging dungeons on alts after you get your attunement done?  You can, is it worth the time investment? no.  Once those that raid are done with Ability/Amp points, what are they going to focus their attention to?  One thing that usually stays fun throughout a game is running dungeons/adventures because it's one of the only activity that you can repeat with friends as many times as you want.  If there's no loot in there, how can it feel worthwhile?  Are you not affraid that these people might also leave eventually because there's not really a worthwhile repeatable activity other then pvp?
 
Last question:  What is so bad about 100% purple drop chance on gold, 50% on silvers and 25% on bronze if anything?  Will it make the game more interesting or less interesting?
 
The same loot rules apply, you just get a consistent chance of getting loot based on your performance.  People won't drop if you lose gold more then they are today.  Loot based on performance, I wonder if this falls into the hardcore category.  Basically, it brings back the rewarding aspect without causing people to drop if gold is missed.  Again if you don't enjoy running dungeons/adventures much, just look away or skip to the next thread.  You can work hard at finding argument against, but it will always come down to philosophical point of view which has not root in practicallity.  Will people have more fun and feel their time is well invested if those changes are pushed through?  Don't forget about the new power cores either.
 
Those that enjoyed running dungeons/adventures will enjoy it more.
			
				
	Edited September 12, 2014 by Zzo	
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+1 to Dungeon/Adventure reward. I like the way the game is now, but it's true that more person would run Dungeon and adventure if loot were something that you want.
 
There is a caviat to this tho. They did the change to loot system because they wanted to get out of the mentality: you do dungeon to get pre-raid, then go raid. They wanted the dungeon to be a form of end game for smaller guild/group of friends. Instead of farming Raid to get best Gear, you farm Dungeon. I don't think they did it right, but I'm pretty sure they know.
 
my 2 cent: futur drop will add to the 5player community content in a big way.
another friendly advice: if you can't have fun outside raiding, I suggest you take a break, just raiding and rest of the time doing something else (in another game or RL, up to you) and wait for 5man to be on their spotlight again.
 
Great post, well explain though, we need more post like that!	
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People left why? They are impatient lopp-holes. Easy fix? Commence global genocide!! ...  (actually I do not play Chua.)
 
Problem isn't the quantity of the loot, problem is the quality -  basicaly that the loot sux. How do you deal with that? Itemization changes... wait aren't these planned? Yes they are!  So we are back to being impatient.	
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They did the change to loot system because they wanted to get out of the mentality: you do dungeon to get pre-raid, then go raid. They wanted the dungeon to be a form of end game for smaller guild/group of friends.
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Yo Zzo, why so mad bro? That's exactly like I said...
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 They wanted the dungeon to be a form of end game for smaller guild/group of friends. .... I don't think they did it right,
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I'm pretty sure your usual day doesn't include running a bunch adventures or dungeons for fun and loot.
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			This post was neither simple nor about slavery, forced MMO participation, or kidnapping loved ones to Ransom for players to return.  -1.	
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This will put us right back where we started where people drop group as soon as gold is no longer attainable...
 
You don't need the epics to go on to raids, they are meant to be a bonus, not "the only thing worth getting".	
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You don't need to do dungeons for pre-raid loot with or without those rules.  It takes 10 seconds to craft an items. 
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			Krakanu, I don't think that's what the OP says... He never said: OMG I NEED THOSE EPIC TO RAID. He says, if you don't raid, why would you do Dungeon either. Need an incentive you know.	
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Krakanu, I don't think that's what the OP says... He never said: OMG I NEED THOSE EPIC TO RAID. He says, if you don't raid, why would you do Dungeon either. Need an incentive you know.
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People stopped running Dungeons and Adventures after getting silvers for the simple fact that crafted gear was leagues better than any purple you'd get from a Dungeon/Adventure.
 
Fact.	
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My Wildstar day consists of running as many dungeons via guild/circle groups or PUGs as I can. I fill the time with dailies and farming while I wait for those things to occur. I don't need gear from them; I just think they are a blast.
 
They are making future loot progression changes that will address these concerns.	
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Some people say they left because it was too demanding in raids.  Some say it's because the attunements were too hard.  Some probably left because they were botting and got banned.  The truth is that is probably only why 5% of the people left.  
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Krakanu, I don't think that's what the OP says... He never said: OMG I NEED THOSE EPIC TO RAID. He says, if you don't raid, why would you do Dungeon either. Need an incentive you know.
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If you aren't going to raid why run adventures and dungeons? If you aren't going to raid why run shiphands and craft? If you aren't going to raid why level your character? If you aren't going to raid why play wildstar?
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People stopped running Dungeons and Adventures after getting silvers for the simple fact that crafted gear was leagues better than any purple you'd get from a Dungeon/Adventure.
 
Fact.
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I usually like your post, but man, that's the dumbest stuff you ever said lol. Raiding ain't Wildstar. Raiding is something to do in Wildstar, among a lot of other thing. Raiding are meant for player that like having 20-40 people in a group dedicated 3time a week to kill boss. Not everyone want that. And that's perfectly fine.
 
Dungeon was meant to be a end game for smaller community that prefer 5man content. Don't take my word for it, go watch some dev stream and shiit.
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You can now get one-time amp points from Gold STV/KV and one-time ability points from Gold Skullcano/SSM.  There's your incentive.
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Noki, that WAS my point, see these portions of that post you quoted:
 
 
 
I provided those as examples of why those types of arguments are NOT VALID.
 
 
Best,
Naz
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People stopped running Dungeons and Adventures after getting silvers for the simple fact that crafted gear was leagues better than any purple you'd get from a Dungeon/Adventure.
 
Fact.
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 I and my guild run Adventures because they're something relatively quick and fun to do together.  I / We also run dungeons because it's a nice relaxing way to experience raid like content with only 5 people.  Easy to get together, takes an hour, two if we have new people learning things, and is rather fun.  Though I'm an old man now, as opposed to my all nighters in MC & BWL when I was younger, and enjoy some short content to play with friends that's still challenging.
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Anecdotes are cool but don't really represent anything.  I know for a fact that if you queued for a Dungeon/Adventure it was pretty abysmal.  My guild only ran STL for gloves and Crimelords for Primal farming.  That's about it.  No one really wanted any gear from them and didn't find them particularly exciting.
 
No one has touched SM since getting attuned. 
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I'm not presenting it as fact, and you're right it doesn't.  But your statement is also false because people didn't stop, some of us still do, so it's not a fact...
 
I don't queue for Dungeons / Adventures becuase I go with guildies regularly so I wouldn't know.  Seems like you're just as anecdotal as I...
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Oh yeah it's an anecdote but fact remains, gear(the proverbial carrot on a stick in most MMO's in the last 10 years) is the main factor for most players repeating any content.  If no one needs the gear, they generally stop running them and level alts or just play something else until raid day.
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At launch i was playing WS with more than 10 rl friends. I was also in a gaming community having more than 50ppl playing WS. Now out of the 10 rl friends i m the only one left in the game and i left my community's guild because it doesn't support WS anymore.
 
Having discussions with friends / guild m8's who quit WS i think the major reasons were:
 
1. Poor optimization. Almost every other mmo runs better in their pc's
2. PvP=AoE Fest
3. Graphics style. Too much stylized / impossible to "love" their char
4. Attunement proccess
5. Too many quests etc during lvling proccess. Low xp from dungeons
6. Bad experience from starter zones. Cant even pass them in order to start playing in the "real" zones
7. Dungeons are not pugable and they are time consuming
8. At max lvl content like shiphands/adventures/world bosses is not necessary or rewarding and they just skip it most of the time, so they left doing only daily quests & rarely some dungeons.
 
Those are the most important things i can think right now, when i was discussing with them. There are many more like bugs, balance etc but they were not game breaking for them. The sad thing is that the majority of ppl who left the game, didn't even tasted the whole content like the raids and warplots (i think many left without doing even a dungeon), which both are the strong aspects of WS and this is s major fault of Carbine imho.	
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Just want to say that 5% is closer to 60%. The problem that will continue to hurt this game is Carbine didn't realize that the casual experience now extends to End Game. I equate casual with time a player can spend, not skill. Want proof they didn't understand that? Where are the normal mode raids? That's something they can't change now but they need to give some serious thought to it in future tiers. I'm sure people will scream "No they should not!" To those people I say I'm right a lot hehe:p 
 
Carbine needs to catch up. Right now the end game system is more archaic than innovated. Op needs to understand that a lot of those people who left would have been running Normal raids at the point where they left off here in most MMORPG. Yes it true that this game is a bit slim on Non-raid content. That partly because the had to spend time readjusting systems they had in place.	
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			I'm glad there aren't normal raids. Wouldn't mind seeing some 10 man dungeons, though, on par difficulty wise with the current vet dungeons. That's the kind of "casual" content I'd like to see.	
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At launch i was playing WS with more than 10 rl friends. I was also in a gaming community having more than 50ppl playing WS. Now out of the 10 rl friends i m the only one left in the game and i left my community's guild because it doesn't support WS anymore.
 
Having discussions with friends / guild m8's who quit WS i think the major reasons were:
 
1. Poor optimization. Almost every other mmo runs better in their pc's
2. PvP=AoE Fest
3. Graphics style. Too much stylized / impossible to "love" their char
4. Attunement proccess
5. Too many quests etc during lvling proccess. Low xp from dungeons
6. Bad experience from starter zones. Cant even pass them in order to start playing in the "real" zones
7. Dungeons are not pugable and they are time consuming
8. At max lvl content like shiphands/adventures/world bosses is not necessary or rewarding and they just skip it most of the time, so they left doing only daily quests & rarely some dungeons.
 
Those are the most important things i can think right now, when i was discussing with them. There are many more like bugs, balance etc but they were not game breaking for them. The sad thing is that the majority of ppl who left the game, didn't even tasted the whole content like the raids and warplots (i think many left without doing even a dungeon), which both are the strong aspects of WS and this is s major fault of Carbine imho.
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I'm glad there aren't normal raids. Wouldn't mind seeing some 10 man dungeons, though, on par difficulty wise with the current vet dungeons. That's the kind of "casual" content I'd like to see.
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			What's the difference between a 10 man dungeon and a 10 man raid?	
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Just want to say that 5% is closer to 60%. The problem that will continue to hurt this game is Carbine didn't realize that the casual experience now extends to End Game. I equate casual with time a player can spend, not skill. Want proof they didn't understand that? Where are the normal mode raids? That's something they can't change now but they need to give some serious thought to it in future tiers. I'm sure people will scream "No they should not!" To those people I say I'm right a lot hehe:p 
 
Carbine needs to catch up. Right now the end game system is more archaic than innovated. Op needs to understand that a lot of those people who left would have been running Normal raids at the point where they left off here in most MMORPG. Yes it true that this game is a bit slim on Non-raid content. That partly because the had to spend time readjusting systems they had in place.
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			For me, more interesting 5man content would be better than 10man content. It may be just me, but 10man content and 20man content seem to require the same ammount of time in my schedule, and I don't see why I would prefer 10 to 20. 5 man content is quicker, can be as hard and rewarding, and create really good relationship.	
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What's the difference between a 10 man dungeon and a 10 man raid?
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A dungeon would be quicker to run and not on a week lockout. Something you could run in under 2 hours once everyone is geared appropriately and knows the fights.
 
It's something you could organize easily like you do current dungeons (grab your 9 best buddies in guild chat and go!) rather than something you'd have to schedule out like raids.
 
The benefits to this would be that it gives raiders something else to do when they are not raiding, and casuals something to work on after dungeons. The fights could be a little more interesting than a 5 man because you have more to work with, but still aimed at the skill level of the 5 man dungeon runner.
 
Also, since I assume Carbine is working on both dungeons and raids for the future, they could simply take their next dungeon and tune it for 10 rather than five. This prevents them from taking resources away from 20/40 man raids to keep the upper crust happy and engaged.
 
Personally, I'd actually really like to see a 10 man raid like Karazhan in the game, but I can understand the objections and why a week lockout 10 man might not be good when there is 20/40 content already. It seems to me that a shorter dungeon styled instance tuned for 10 people would be a better fit for the game. 
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			Original Post edited.	
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"I am really, really bad at this game and probably shouldn't be playing it, but make it easier for me anyway! ...now to find a way to get my nose even further up my own bum..."
 
 
 
 
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I'm glad there aren't normal raids. Wouldn't mind seeing some 10 man dungeons, though, on par difficulty wise with the current vet dungeons. That's the kind of "casual" content I'd like to see.
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Krakanu, we're on similar wavelengths. I guess I want to call them "dungeons" because I'd rather see them design another tier for the 5 man crowd rather than another tier for the raiding crowd. Having to juggle three different raid sizes would be frustrating I'd think.
 
But whatever the name is, I think it would be a good move. I remember doing weekend runs of Sarth and Naxx10 that we just kind of threw together with whoever was on. Our normal raid nights were during the week, so having those filled the gap.
 
I didn't really like having 10 person versions of the same fights, but I liked having something to do on days we weren't raiding. And like many people I have fond memories of Kara and ZA.	
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Balf, I do think that Carbine intends to make fun stuff for causal players. What that looks like long term they are still probably figuring out. Right now, I'd say the dungeons are the best casual content I've played in an MMO (not that I have a TON of MMO experience) and really, really well tuned. I hope they can continue to deliver that experience. We are still early on in the life of the game and I have a lot of faith for the future.
 
I'm only sad because as the guild is growing we end up seeing people sit out of the fun stuff we're doing (trying to get everyone silvered even after the changes). We'll be hitting GA soon, but it will only be two nights a week. The rest of the time we have to be careful to try to make sure everyone gets a chance to do guild runs through the 5 mans.	
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Krakanu, we're on similar wavelengths. I guess I want to call them "dungeons" because I'd rather see them design another tier for the 5 man crowd rather than another tier for the raiding crowd. Having to juggle three different raid sizes would be frustrating I'd think.
 
But whatever the name is, I think it would be a good move. I remember doing weekend runs of Sarth and Naxx10 that we just kind of threw together with whoever was on. Our normal raid nights were during the week, so having those filled the gap.
 
I didn't really like having 10 person versions of the same fights, but I liked having something to do on days we weren't raiding. And like many people I have fond memories of Kara and ZA.
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I don't really understand y anyone thinks the endgame is any worse then re-running SoO 914 times since last September.
 
Are collecting timeless coins and lesser fortunes that exciting?	
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I didn't really like having 10 person versions of the same fights
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I kinda wish they would just put the new world bosses in their own mini-raid or something.  While its fun going to do Scorchwing every now and then, it really sucks when you form up a group for it only to find that he's dead or that the other faction already killed him.  And when somebody sees that he's up, it feels like you HAVE to do it now rather than whenever you want to because you don't always have the opportunity. 
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			People left because they were mmo tourists, they gotr bored and said, HEY ARCHEAGE IS COMING	
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People left why? They are impatient lopp-holes. Easy fix? Commence global genocide!! ...  (actually I do not play Chua.)
 
Problem isn't the quantity of the loot, problem is the quality -  basicaly that the loot sux. How do you deal with that? Itemization changes... wait aren't these planned? Yes they are!  So we are back to being impatient.
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			Well, not being able to log on for a week is bad, but this is an isolated issue.  It didn't happen to 1% of the population : /	
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Well, not being able to log on for a week is bad, but this is an isolated issue.  It didn't happen to 1% of the population : /
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I will agree it shouldn't be a 10/20/40 man version of the same content though.  A raid should be designed with one group size in mind, period.  Balancing a boss for 20 players, and then changing it to accommodate 10 is just asking for imbalances.  People always complained about 10 mans being easier/harder than 25 mans in WoW, but if the raids are totally different, you really can't draw the same comparisons.
 
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I ran 20 adventures after the loot change to see where the real % was, got bored with blue drops (lucky my medic only needed 1 piece more to fill out on pre-raid gear at the time, but my stalker alt that wasn't 50 wasn't going to get geared up anytime soon...) and just stopped running them.
 
Felt like it was a waste of time.	
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			Which is exactly my point .....	
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