Report 249

Report #249
Skillset: Sacraments Skill: Fervor
 Org: Paladins Status: Completed Aug 2009
Furies' Decision:
Is now a permanent def that raises damage/wounding in holy ground and heretic
line.
Problem: Currently, the Sacraments skillset has little to complement knight
combat, and fervor, which lasts around 20-40 seconds, offers only a minor damage
boost for power that can be better spent on power attacks or puissance, for
instance.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #1: Make fervor a permanent defence for 8p which adds 10%
 to damage and wounding while making the user take 10%
 more damage. The defence can be disabled (and then
 has to be recast for 8p, similar to surge), and while
 it is active, Numen cannot be used. The bonus/malus
 percentages as well as the powercost are only a
 suggestion, and the required skill rank may have to
 be reviewed, too.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #2: Like solution 1, but fervor also reduces equilibrium
 loss time for Rituals and Celestialism skills by 10%
 (to make the defence useful for Celestines).
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #3: Like any of the above, but the skill remains a
 temporary defence. In this case, the power cost
 should be reduced to 1p and the minumum duration
 raised a bit (or the duration set to a fixed amount
 of time).
Player Comments:
---[Akui on 8/17 @ 03:17 writes]:
Sacraments could certainly use some attention in regards to its knight users.
It would be nice to see more changes that push the skillset closer to the very
effective synergies some of the other tertiaries have. Solutions 1 and 3 sound
fine- in any event, the skill should at least be worth using.
---[Llandros on 8/17 @ 12:45 writes]:
1 & 3 sound fine, not a big fan of solution 2, messing with eq times can have
unforseen results
---[Xenthos on 8/20 @ 02:51 writes]:
A permanent 10% bonus to damage and wounding for 8p seems just a -wee- bit high,
no? The downsides really aren't all that high for a suggestion that gives over
a thousand credits worth of artifact (550 credits in terms of wounding runes,
and 500 for a pair of elemental runes). Hmm.
---[Nienla on 8/20 @ 02:53 writes]:
I have to question Solution #1. While the malus certainly sounds debilitating
for a non-Demigod, I have to worry about the huge benefit with small penalty to
a Demigod with 10-12k health. A 10% damage reduction will barely put a dent in
them at all. All the while, this benefit gives Paladin Demigods (which are
already high in the damage/wounding output) more of an unneeded benefit. I'm
totally in favour of a Sacraments buff, but this seems to be too little of a
penalty on Solution #1.
---[Zalandrus on 8/20 @ 13:46 writes]:
I agree with Nienla's sentiments (and Xenthos's) about the malus. 10% doesn't
seem to be enough, but any more and it might make the skill too dangerous for
lower levels to use. Solution 3 seems the least drastic, but the time would have
to be extended a lot to increase the usefulness of the skill, it seems (on the
order of a 100% increase?). If a new, better (and fairer) malus can be
determined for Solution 1, go for it.
---[Veyrzhul on 8/20 @ 21:57 writes]:
10% additional damage received is not that little. We're basically talking about
a level 1 weakness to all types of damage, including unblockable damage. The
discussion about racial resistances and weaknesses that normally only cover
specific types of damage suggests that it does indeed matter., and especially
with the lack of numen to fall back on, it is a defence you don't always want to
have up. Regardless of that, the numbers are only suggestions, even though I
cannot change them in the suggestions any more now that the report is finalized.
Lowering the bonus damage and wounding is an option, but that should go hand in
hand with lowering the penalty and/or allowing numen. I would like to add that
pairing the benefits of the skill with a malus should not be viewed as something
that needs to be fully balanced against one another; most skills don't have any
negative side effects at all. It would probably make most sense to suggest
numbers in terms of boni, mali and power cost for this, which will hopefully be
taken into consideration even though they cannot be included into the solutions
any more.
---[Xenthos on 8/20 @ 22:19 writes]:
You're right, most don't have benefit and malus, but this one was designed to
(that is its 'vision', and it is also very low in Sacraments). I really don't
think that the 10% extra damage is in any way an adequate counter to a permanent
10% bonus to damage and wounds dealt. With your comments there, I'm feeling
that making it a permanent defense is just not the way to go. So, not solution
1 or 2. 3 has some potential. Maybe make it 2p (one less than Puissance), but
still... puissance lasts only for the first hit. Fervor increases damage on
(guesstimating at 3s attack times) 6 to 13 hits. During this time you are also
taking more damage, but you're meting out a lot more than puissance would (for,
at the moment, the same power cost). You do not get the bonus to wounding that
puissance gives, but more damage == more sipping == less applying, in general.
---[Veyrzhul on 8/22 @ 01:40 writes]:
The point of puissance in my eyes is to be able to focus on an important (mostly
the initial) attack, preferrably a power attack. Also, you can regain some (when
well-timed even all) of the power used for puissance before actually having to
use it, that's not really an option for a 3p fervor as is. So far, you basically
have to choose between powerattacks (or puissance) and fervor, and power attacks
are really much more useful overall. That's why I want it to be changed so you
don't actually have to choose between those power-consuming skills that aim at
similar effects, but rather for it to be able to be stacked on their effects -
at a malus. As a sidenote, most non-demigod warriors or even demigods without
artifacts have to rely almost solely on wounding to achieve anything against
more resilient combatant; the 10% damage boost alone will not help them at all,
a little boost to wounding would.
---[Xenthos on 8/23 @ 16:56 writes]:
Hence the alternate suggestion to make it 2p instead of 3p. You miss out on one
power attack, but if you take advantage of the current bonus correctly you
should be able to make them sip an extra time or two instead of applying.
Absolutely -no- warrior relies -solely- upon wounding. Any warrior relying
solely upon wounding is doomed to failure. You throw in damage, you make them
sip a little bit. Any time they sip, they've just slowed down their wound
healing and you're that much further ahead. This is an essential part of
warrior combat... so I dispute your assertion. It's completely wrong. More
damage is never a bad thing, more wounding is completely unnecessary on top of
that. Especially given the current weapon formulas where people are not really
focused on wounding weapons and are more focused on damage weapons (because they
do close to the same wounding, + damage to force more sipping).
---[Veyrzhul on 8/23 @ 20:41 writes]:
I just had a demigod warrior with 22 strength and 115/85/280 rapiers beat on me
for a few minutes without me parrying, stancing, putting up rebounding, sipping,
reciting or eating sparkleberry. He wasn't even able to outdamage my
regeneration. Now sure, I am a demigod with a truefavour in plate myself, but
this should give a hint what non-runed weapons in the hands of non-demigods can
do. Yes, alot of warriors need to rely 100% on wounding against tougher
opponents, unless in groups with other damaging classes. 10% more damage will
change pretty much nothing for them.
---[Veyrzhul on 8/23 @ 20:47 writes]:
Oh, aforementioned warrior was using aggressive combatstyle, too.
---[Xenthos on 8/23 @ 22:58 writes]:
Who is this demigod warrior, then? Because something doesn't sound at all right
with your example. If they've got full and unfettered access they should be
able to get you bleeding, burning up mana, burning up health, and sipping. This
test sounds rather flawed.
---[Xenthos on 8/23 @ 22:59 writes]:
And, by flawed, I mean that it sounds like he wasn't using his power attacks, or
was constantly attacking a single location, was not trying to use afflictions to
cause extra damage, etc.
---[Veyrzhul on 8/24 @ 01:13 writes]:
There were no power attacks (but I also didn't even recite or eat
sparkleberries), but aside from that, bleeding amount or damage from afflictions
are nothing that is amplified by Fervor, nor the mana used for clotting. Also,
for afflictions, you need - yes, wounds. The test was solely to show that normal
attack damage - exactly what is increased at the moment by Fervor - can be
ridiculously low and have very little to no impact. Thus, my pledge for Fervor
to give a slight boost to wounding, as well.
---[Xenthos on 8/24 @ 22:25 writes]:
You are completely disregarding my entire point, which is that it is the
combination of the two-- INCLUDING THE DAMAGE-- which is effective. Increased
damage always helps, because it is going to over time force more sipping than
otherwise. Because... there is more that needs to be sipped. This is, as I
said, the basic premise of warrior combat. We don't kill anyone with damage
alone, but we also don't kill with wounds alone. It's just not very feasible.
---[Xenthos on 8/24 @ 23:27 writes]:
I will clarify that by 'anyone' I mean 'competent fighters', though, before
that's used as a counter-point!
---[Veyrzhul on 8/24 @ 23:49 writes]:
I believe I went into 'your entire point' by stating that the part of direct
weapon damage in the equation is very low for many knights, thus the 10%
increase to exactly that part of the equation is pretty irrelevant, too.
---[Xenthos on 8/25 @ 01:29 writes]:
Except that's not the case at all. Try stacking wounds up on someone with
stance/parry/rebound while doing absolutely no damage at all. You're completely
ignoring how warriors work, here.
---[Ceren on 8/25 @ 02:16 writes]:
Actually Xenthos, as an unartied demigod warrior I was 100% wounding and killed
people just fine like that. Not that I wanted to be all wounds, but my damage
was just so low that I could never ever hope to make someone sip. I remember
several occasions I had Melville truelocked and after like 30-40s of straight
swinging I had to finish him with burstorgans or sacrifice because even without
sip (which obviously he didn't have to do anyway), sparkle, and scroll he
wouldn't go down to damage. Hence I never used skills like omen because they
simply added nothing to my offense. Still deciding what I think about this
report, but Veyrzhul is right about that much.
---[Xenthos on 8/25 @ 02:44 writes]:
I'm talking about now, Ceren. Where Demigods don't have level 3 regeneration,
where Trueplate has been massively nerfed, and... even in your example, you're
talking about having him truelocked (if they aren't curing wounds, then you can
stack up as much as you'd like over time and damage doesn't matter). However,
all of my comments are in regards to when they are actually able to cure. There
is a reason that at that time, warrior vs. warrior combat was nearly impossible
(and there have been numerous tweaks to reduce that impossibility). Would you
have been able to kill him with wounds if he was applying every balance? I
don't really think so.
---[Xenthos on 8/25 @ 03:19 writes]:
Speaking with Melville, he states that this was when he was a Titan and after
some of the above changes (though he had Titan regen and was standing in Tainted
ground for the regen aspect of it). What was the damage on your weapons, Ceren?
---[Xenthos on 8/25 @ 04:35 writes]:
However, all I really feel that I have to say is: Look at this in the way it
buffs warriors with artifacts. The "think of the unartifacted warrior" comments
really don't fly because it buffs up artifacted warriors even more (as it is
percentage based) than the unartifacted ones, and artifacted warriors really
don't need this kind of -permanent- boost. So I will resuggest dropping the
power cost to 2.
---[Ceren on 8/25 @ 15:42 writes]:
Well, obviously you have to build pretty good wounding on someone to truelock
him, so you know. Far as arties go, I don't think we can say their existence
invalidates a direct wounding buff. Almost all other warrior tertiaries have
one: the precision/speed component of weaponaura in Moon/Night, swiftstripes in
Stag, str boost of arclich in Necromancy, and the dog companion in tracking all
lead to direct increases in wounding output.
---[Ceren on 8/25 @ 16:13 writes]:
I've thought about it, and I think solution 1 is really not going to cut it. Do
you really want a defense that increases damage done to you and never fades, and
then costs 8p every time you choose to drop and recast it? Here's my suggestion:
Fervour will remain a temporary defense with the cost raised to 4p. It'll last a
full 60 seconds. It'll give a 20-25% buff to damage and a 10% buff to wounding
(not as much wounding increase as you think when you consider you're giving up a
round of lunges for it). Instead of increasing damage taken by 10%, it'll cause
you to suffer 25% of all the damage you inflict, of course including the buffed
damage from fervour itself. You cannot cast numen while fervour is up, and if
you cast fervour while you have numen up, numen will fade. If possible to code,
damage will only be returned to you once per prompt to prevent taking several
thousand damage from avatar wrath hitting like 10 people. And fully usable with
quickening. I think a powerful skill like that would pretty much justify
Sacraments for Paladins in a way it hasn't been since... forever.
---[Xenthos on 8/29 @ 16:57 writes]:
I think it is pretty clear that the absolute last thing that Warriors need at
this point in time is -more- damage, Ceren. There is already a huge rift
between the 'haves' and 'have-nots' in the warrior world. Once you've maxed out
the damage, put on elemental runes to convert a third of the damage to something
harder to block, and then start stacking up the +damage abilities... things get
ugly. Let's take a warrior who does 800 base, and a warrior who does 2k base.
25% of the 800 is +200 damage. 25% of the 2000 is +500 damage. The two guilds
that can stack an uncurable +% damage on top of generic bonuses are Night
Ebonguard (shadow steal), and Sacramanets Paladins (fervor). A +% to damage is,
for a high-end warrior, far more effective than +10 points to damage. This is
why I don't mind the power cost being reduced for fervor slightly, but there is
no reason whatseover to make Warrior damage even -more- insane. Unless, of
course, there is a desire to re-write how +damage bonuses stack-- it might be
time to introduce "DMP" for +damage effects as well as for damage prevention.
For example, the first 10% bonus is +10%, 20% gives +15%, 30% gives +18%, or
something along these lines. This would affect more than just warriors, it
would affect everyone stacking +damage percents... but it is time to consider
this. These effects can be stacked by pretty much every guild except Druids to
widen the gulf between high-end and middle-end dramatically. Another
alternative is to cap how much damage a PC can do to another PC to never being
more than 1/4 of the player's health or something. If one of these is done,
then fine. You can ask for a Fervor that gives more than +10% damage for a
while. As-is, SIXTY SECONDS of +25% damage? On top of all the other bonuses
available? Such as war-domoth, war blessing, puissance, etc.
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