Report 1831

Report #1831
Skillset: Combat Skill: Stancing
 Org: Hallifax Status: Submitted Feb 2018
Problem: Stancing has replaced parry as the Combat skill to counter monk
attacks, as voted on in report 1752. However, Stancing is significantly better
than Parry in a number of ways, resulting in a severe reduction in monk
effectiveness at nearly zero cost. In particular 1) while Parry for single limbs
was reduced in effectiveness via diminishing returns, stancing a single limb is
100% effective, and 2) While multiple limb Parry is calculated simply based on
your numerical spread (for values below 50), Stancing multiple limbs gives you
bonus avoidance above the expected value (more than 33% on three limbs, and well
above 50% for stance arms and stance legs). In addition, Stancing is made even
more powerful when the defender has transcended Combat, and there is also a
bonus for transcending Kata. This report seeks to decrease the difference
between Stancing above the Parry line, making them more equivalent.
[A: 8 R: 0] Solution #1: Reduce the effectiveness of single limb Stancing to
 match the diminishing returns for Parrying above 50%
 (as per changelog 1047)
[A: 6 R: 1] Solution #2: Remove the bonus avoidance for multiple limb
 Stancing, instead calculating avoidance by simple and
 expected values where for avoidance (A) and limbs
 parried (L) A = 1/L resulting in flat 33% avoidance
 on three limb stance and 50% on two limb stance
 including arms and legs. Remove the extraneous
 bonuses for transcendent Combat and Kata.
[A: 8 R: 0] Solution #3: Both Solution 1 and Solution 2 (Solution 1 would
 result in the equation in Solution 2 changing for
 value L = 1 to match diminishing returns of parry)
Player Comments:
---[Ejderha on 2/14 @ 07:02 sets as pending]
---[Veyils on 2/14 @ 09:30 writes]:
Can I suggest a solution four element. Give a stancing skill for each individual
limb.
---[Ejderha on 2/14 @ 17:32 writes]:
Some context and details: I did extensive automated testing about stance miss
rates, and was surprised by the results. However, I did not know when I began
testing about the 5% avoidance bonuses from trans Combat and trans Kata. My miss
rate in vitals was around 43%, so it could be that Vitals is 33% +5% + 5%. We
know that arms and legs are higher base chance - I believe 60% - which rises to
70% with the two bonuses. (My automated testing showed a miss rate higher than
70%, but I will test again with the new assumptions). It is also possible that
stancing a single limb *is* actually subject to diminishing returns, but the
diminishment is swamped by the extra 10% in bonuses, making it appear to be
100%. If so, the first half of solution 2 is already in place, but hidden by
bonuses the second half of Solution 2 asks to be removed. @Veyils I don't think
your Sol4 by itself would help at all - in fact, it would allow easier avoidance
of effects like mutilate by allowing the defender to 100% defend the already
broken limb. However, you are indirectly making one of the better counter
arguments, which is that stance is more limited than parry in how you can spread
it around (Another being that stance is harder to change compared to parry,
which can be done off bal). I don't think that justifies a 10% bonus on stance
arms/legs or 5-10% from trans skills. That solution - in concert with solutions
1 and 2 - would be palatable, subjecting it to DR and removing the additional
bonuses. It was mentioned to me privately to point out monk access to prone and
clumsiness is inconsistent across specs, and our power move more expensive than
warriors, making stance already more powerful even before the extra 5-20% in
bonuses. In addition, even beyond the question of whether any spec has useful
afflictions outside an easily stanced area, the work required for a monk to have
3 attacks * 5 stances * number of stances (plus different poisons for each
incompatible aff stacking strategy) they need to counter is a much h
---[Ejderha on 2/14 @ 17:33 writes]:
(cont) higher and more complicated bar than warriors face.
---[Avurekhos on 2/14 @ 18:43 writes]:
I agree with the premise of this report in that stancing is infinitely better
compared to parrying. I don't think anything should be able to shutdown an
offense 100%. I'm leaning more towards 3 as it would fix the problem without
requiring additional changes to the other monk skillsets in my opinion.
---[Ejderha on 2/14 @ 22:47 writes]:
Additional testing on stance arms with trans combat and kata puts the avoidance
rate right around 70%, so I expect my earlier test was not a large enough sample
size.
---[Moi on 2/15 @ 01:10 writes]:
After talking with Ejderha and Yarith a bit on Envoys to clarify what has been
discovered and what is being asked for in this report, I am entirely in favour
of Solution 3. The net result would be that stancing in general is slightly less
effective and that head/gut/chest stances are in particular MUCH less effective
than their current 100% block rate. That is absolutely a necessary change, IMO.
Preference 3>1>2>0.
---[Veyils on 2/15 @ 01:19 writes]:
Just for anyone who missed it Kalikai confirmed stancing is spread equally on
all stances except legs and arms which give 60%/60%. Then on top of this trans
combat grants +5% and kata grants +5% as well. Eg vitals stance is 33%/33%/33%
base, buffed to 38%/38%/38% for trans combat user and buffed to 43/43/43 for
monks.
---[Danquik on 2/16 @ 04:10 writes]:
After testing stancing earlier I feel that removal of the Vitals, Upper, Lower,
Middle stances is the way to go. Just leave Head, Chest, Gut, Arms, Legs as
stanceable locations. This allows a monk to create forms that will force a
person to move their stance. There should be an avenue to hemorrhaging in all
bodyparts so that everything has a risk, as well and some monks may need to
envoy means for that to happen.
---[Ejderha on 2/17 @ 00:23 writes]:
That's an interesting idea, Danquik. The other thing - which in retrospect I
wish I had focused on perhaps - is the damage stancing does to the viability of
our already delicate 'instant' kill. Either you have a 38-43% chance to miss on
a perfectly executed kill - and for Tessenchi, stance vitals covers ALL of the
targetable areas for ThousandCuts - OR we have to stick yet another affliction
on top of the 8ish we already need to stick (At least it is on the same balance
and counts for Nunchunku) OR our instant kill becomes a 6p instant with a 2p
setup, meaning we don't have the power to use for boosting or stance bypass
beforehand. New Monks also can't just swing again - that ensures enough cure
time that they won't have a deadly count of afflictions.
---[Danquik on 2/17 @ 05:44 writes]:
For clarity - Left, Right, Lower, Middle, Upper, Vitals are the stances that
should all be removed. Removing those stances forces targets to be more precise
in their stancing and allows monks to push stance in the same manner that
warriors push parry.
---[Veyils on 2/20 @ 13:04 writes]:
I'm abstaining on the three main solutions. Suggestion is adjust stancing to be
more like parry in that you can pick specific numbers yourself. Stance head
50/stance gut 20/stance lleg 10. Would prefer this level of control so that we
could move it more like parry.