143381-wildstar-stopped-being-fun-at-max-level

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I enjoyed the levelling process a lot, and was disappointed that what most people claim is the best part of MMOs was so boring to me.
 
I don't play MMOs much, but I gave Wildstar a shot since it was F2P. I was pleasantly surprised at how responsive the combat felt and how interesting the lore was. The short stories the quest chains told kept me playing. The whole process actually didn't feel like a grind and I enjoyed it the whole way through.I also did the expeditions and dungeons along the way. The expeditions were great as well. Maybe a bit too easy, at least when soloed. The dungeons had just the right amount of difficulty. They were decently challenging, but not to an annoying degree. Avoiding all the crazy telegraph formations was fun. I didn't encounter any trolls in the pug groups. People were nice and would give advice if we were struggling at a boss.I ignored the adventures. I remember them being advertised at being story heavy multiplayer content, and I don't want to do that with strangers. Knowing how MMOs usually go, people would've likely rushed through and hadn't given me time to follow the story. For story based content, I'd much rather do it alone so I can do it at my own pace.Once I hit level 50, I assumed the game would only get better from here. Whenever people talk about MMOs, they always mention how the game starts at max level and all that. The reward screen for level 50 is pretty overwhelming. It lists loads of features, but says nothing about what they are. So, I ended up googling a guide on what to do at max level.The guide recommended that I do the veteran expeditions to get gear. I got gold on all of them, then repeated the shortest one (infestation) so I could get the gear for the harder content. This already felt like the kind of grind I'd dreaded in MMOs, but since the instances were pretty fun and I'd already dedicated so much time to the game. I ended up grinding them for around 8-10 hours to get the optimal gear.So, I had iLevel 60 gear that I'd completely runed and honestly was pretty proud of it after all the time I put into getting it. The next ideal step would've been the veteran adventures, but I really don't want to do them since they can't be soloed.I queued for the first veteran dungeon instead. Right away, I noticed that there was a huge difficulty jump. The first boss already required much better reflexes than anything before. Still, we beat it after a couple of wipes and discussion on strategy. Everyone except one person was new to the instance. I thought we had a good team going, even if we died several times on each boss.We got to the boss with all the running bots in it. We wiped a couple of times again, and people were claiming that I wasn't destroying the bots with the lance attack. I was trying to, and told them so. After one wipe, they suddenly voted me out. After two hours of patiently and politely trying to beat the instance. So after all that time spent, all I got was a 50 gold repair bill. I was pissed, to say the least.Now, I like hard games. Dark Souls is one of my favorite games. The difference between that and Wildstar is that you can keep trying for as long as you want and the only thing that matters is your own skill level. In WS, you have a team that can nullify all your progress and kick you out after two hours of work. Your ability is also determined by how much gear you've grinded by repeating the same instance over and over. This is just busywork, and filler for the game.Trying not to be discouraged, I queued for Veteran Stormtalon three times afterwards. This time, people were much ruder to me when I failed. One guy shouted insults at me. The atmosphere in the veteran dungeons is much more toxic than in the normal dungeons. After all that time I spent getting gear for the dungeons, the only thing I got out of it was being told how much I suck and then votekicked out.All this really made me never want to play the game again. I get why this can be frustrating to old players as well, but I had no way of practising these instances without doing them with other players. Even though I tried my best, I would've had to be a hindrance until I'd learned the bosses. This made me realize that I only enjoy hard single player games, since the only thing that matters is how good you are. In multiplayer games, there's nothing you can do if your teammates aren't good enough.The difficulty really encourages toxicity among players. The votekick system only encourages it, since you can cherry pick your teammates and kick everyone out who isn't up to their standards. Actually, I've never seen the votekicks used for anything other than kicking the least skilled player out.I'm still confused about why people consider this to be the good part of MMOs. It's just grinding the same instances over and over again to get higher numbers on your stat screen. The veteran instances aren't even much different from the regular ones. Protostar's bosses had some new mechanics, at least. Stormtalon was mostly the same, aside from the final boss's telegraphs being obnoxiously much faster. All in all, I spent loads of my time grinding just so I could do the same dungeons again. Honestly, it seems like a lame way of spending my time.Compare this to the levelling, where you constantly travelled to new areas and had a story to follow. I had much more fun doing that. I guess MMOs just aren't for me. I did join a guild in an attempt to be social, but I didn't do anything other than give advice to people who asked questions. I'm not a very social person to begin with. The few times they ran dungeons, I was busy doing instances, so I didn't get a chance to see if the dungeons would've been better that way. After that awful experience, I doubt I'll ever do group content again.	
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I'm sorry that you had that kind of experience. Most of the community is pretty great every now and then you run into some jerks. I started doing Dungeons on my new character in the ilevel 54 gear, wow you can get hurt pretty easy in that stuff. Once you get a few pieces of dungeon gear you see a dramatic increase in survivability and dps. 
 
I thought your post was well thought out and while others might not agree I see this happening more and more. I go into the dungeons on my character like I haven't been doing them for a year just to see how people react to new players. It hasn't been a great experience for me either. I would say I have 2-5 bad groups and then I get locked in with an amazing group of people. I'd love to see that bad number drop to 1-2. When I say bad I don't mean bad players, or people that are learning. I am strictly talking about players that have better gear that don't want to take the time to get new players started.
 
Come on guys I know a lot of us have been here a year plus but this is launch for a ton of players the first few months we need to be ready to teach and help where we can not just dropping the kick hammer.
 
Thanks for sharing your experience, I hope you stick around. Maybe find one of the guilds that has a more social experience some of them are awesome and a lot of them are doing dungeons and raids. 	
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what u are looking for is story, unfortunately the story at lvl 50 is very very short (new game so lore is pretty shallow for the moment)
 
 
The next step to the story are blighthaven, the defile, omnicore and raids	
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"Why do you raid?" *To get the best items! 
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			try adventures, people are more calmed about mistakes in adventures because they arent as hard as dungeons. also you will improve your gear getting to a point your dps can down the robots in that second phase of the second boss you were telling us about.also get  aguild, the game is a lot more fun with people to share 	
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There's a point in a zero punctuation video that feels extremely relevant with your particular review.
 
>Zero Punctuation<
 
"Why do you raid?" *To get the best items!* "What do you use the best items for?" *To raid with!*
 
Every mmorpg is a numbers game, to be honest i just adore the housing in the game.
			
				
	Edited October 15, 2015 by xRaymanx	
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Trying not to be discouraged, I queued for Veteran Stormtalon three times afterwards. This time, people were much ruder to me when I failed. One guy shouted insults at me. The atmosphere in the veteran dungeons is much more toxic than in the normal dungeons. After all that time I spent getting gear for the dungeons, the only thing I got out of it was being told how much I suck and then votekicked out.
 
All this really made me never want to play the game again. I get why this can be frustrating to old players as well, but I had no way of practising these instances without doing them with other players. Even though I tried my best, I would've had to be a hindrance until I'd learned the bosses. This made me realize that I only enjoy hard single player games, since the only thing that matters is how good you are. In multiplayer games, there's nothing you can do if your teammates aren't good enough.
 
The difficulty really encourages toxicity among players. The votekick system only encourages it, since you can cherry pick your teammates and kick everyone out who isn't up to their standards. Actually, I've never seen the votekicks used for anything other than kicking the least skilled player out.
 
I'm still confused about why people consider this to be the good part of MMOs. It's just grinding the same instances over and over again to get higher numbers on your stat screen. The veteran instances aren't even much different from the regular ones. Protostar's bosses had some new mechanics, at least. Stormtalon was mostly the same, aside from the final boss's telegraphs being obnoxiously much faster. All in all, I spent loads of my time grinding just so I could do the same dungeons again. Honestly, it seems like a lame way of spending my time.
 
Compare this to the levelling, where you constantly travelled to new areas and had a story to follow. I had much more fun doing that. I guess MMOs just aren't for me. I did join a guild in an attempt to be social, but I didn't do anything other than give advice to people who asked questions. I'm not a very social person to begin with. The few times they ran dungeons, I was busy doing instances, so I didn't get a chance to see if the dungeons would've been better that way. After that awful experience, I doubt I'll ever do group content again.
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			Thanks very much for your well-written and thought-out feedback, Reath. Many of us have had a very similar experience to yours.	
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When you were little, you could play the same game on your nintendo over and over, and get better and better at it. All that would remain was the feeling "If only I could do this over and over with some friends to see how fast we can do it, how perfectly we can master it and who can do it the best". 
 
That to me is raiding in a nutshell. MMO's never get old.
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Man, I'm sorry you got such a raw deal when you tried veteran dungeons.
 
Reading your post...I kind of get the feeling that either MMOs aren't the genre for you OR that you just need a consistent group of friends/guildmates to run content with.  The unfortunate fact of the matter is that running group content with random people can range anywhere from totally awesome (people are doing well and chatting and fun tiiiimes!) to utterly abhorrent (this guy is an arrogant douche-hose and oh my god this is taking forever) and...that's just a problem with people.  You can impose penalties and restrictions but the unfortunate fact of the matter is that there's not really an effective means to stop people from being like that.
 
Sometimes it's not even because they're bad people.  There's folks that want to run the max level dungeons...but they get stuck with someone that isn't geared enough or doesn't know the fights or simply isn't reacting fast enough.  They keep at it for an hour but keep failing and the group falls apart.  Crap, I just waste an hour getting frustrated.  Oh well, another group.  Same thing happens...again.  Suddenly I'm not a happy camper and the next group I get into has MORE people that are wasting time with failure and I no longer want to be a nice person.  I'm upset and exasperated and I really just don't have any proof that these people are actually putting effort into things.
 
Sometimes you have to roll with the punches or avoid the situation entirely.	
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Playing MMO's mostly solo is a terrible experience.
 
Playing with a bunch of crazy bastards on teamspeak is the greatest thing in the world.
 
Get urself into a decent guild, and have a laugh. :)
 
I know it sounds sad, but some of our guildies dont even raid, they come on to just hang out and chat, do dungeon runs and pvp, and just mess around for the night. And they are some of our most revered guildies :)	
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Trying not to be discouraged, I queued for Veteran Stormtalon three times afterwards. This time, people were much ruder to me when I failed. One guy shouted insults at me. The atmosphere in the veteran dungeons is much more toxic than in the normal dungeons. After all that time I spent getting gear for the dungeons, the only thing I got out of it was being told how much I suck and then votekicked out.
All this really made me never want to play the game again. I get why this can be frustrating to old players as well, but I had no way of practising these instances without doing them with other players. Even though I tried my best, I would've had to be a hindrance until I'd learned the bosses. This made me realize that I only enjoy hard single player games, since the only thing that matters is how good you are. In multiplayer games, there's nothing you can do if your teammates aren't good enough.
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Playing MMO's mostly solo is a terrible experience.
 
Playing with a bunch of crazy bastards on teamspeak is the greatest thing in the world.
 
Get urself into a decent guild, and have a laugh. :)
 
I know it sounds sad, but some of our guildies dont even raid, they come on to just hang out and chat, do dungeon runs and pvp, and just mess around for the night. And they are some of our most revered guildies :)
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			just out of curiosity, did you happen to inform them that you were new to the dungeon?  I know at this point in f2p it can generally be assumed, but groups tend to be more forgiving when people talk and explain to the other people it is their first time and could use some explanations.  you seem to be the type of player that enjoys more solo content than anything, sorry if i missed the mark.  have you tried contracts, daily zones, world bosses, or even housing?  these might be more up your alley and will generally steer you clear of epeen trolls. 	
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All this really made me never want to play the game again. I get why this can be frustrating to old players as well, but I had no way of practising these instances without doing them with other players. Even though I tried my best, I would've had to be a hindrance until I'd learned the bosses. This made me realize that I only enjoy hard single player games, since the only thing that matters is how good you are. In multiplayer games, there's nothing you can do if your teammates aren't good enough.
The difficulty really encourages toxicity among players. 
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Just want to explicitly call attention to this point, since I agree that it is a major roadblock for players when they hit the dungeons. 
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I agree with the OP on a number of his points, and the general feeling.  I dislike leveling, I like dungeons and shinies.  However in WS at 50, its been very frustrating - I attempted to run 8 vet dungeons in the last 3 days, and was successful once.  The other 7 times it was either auto-disband vote for protostar, people disband after 1 wipe on 1st or 2nd boss, or one person randomly leaves after 1 wipe somewhere and everyone else then disbands.
 
Sitting at about ilvl 70-75 on two characters, I do decent dps (not stellar with that ilvl), yet cant complete a dungeon.  The OP also makes a good point, if you don't already know the vet dungeon bosses, how the *$(# are you supposed to learn if you get kicked/disbanded after one wipe?
 
People defend this community, and I believe they have it backwards.  Most of the people running dungeons aren't good enough or mature enough to handle failing at something once.  Then there are a few WONDERFUL people.
 
Let the hate and ignorant rants about ltp begin.	
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Yet another reason why guilds are necessary. This is NOT a single player game. It is an MMO. Guilds, circles, and community channels (LFG comes to mind) allow you to join up with like-minded people to approach content with a differnet mindset (i.e. practice over rushing for Gold). This content is hard, you do have to practice, you do have to learn which fights you need 0 interupts for and which you need 3+ for. The content demands that you learn the mechanics (i.e. size/location of telographs).
 
I have, more than once, started Vet Dungeon groups in which I specifically stated that I was looking for others to group with that wanted to learn the fights. It is something you have to take the initiative to do. The group filled up INCREDIBLY quick by the way. Just ask in a channel.
 
(sorry if the capitalization of some of the words make it seem like I am trying to be aggressive. I am not =).)	
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Just want to explicitly call attention to this point, since I agree that it is a major roadblock for players when they hit the dungeons. 
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Just want to explicitly call attention to this point, since I agree that it is a major roadblock for players when they hit the dungeons. 
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What would you like to see here, Yas? Boss in a box "training sessions?"
 
How would learning a boss fight *SOLO* that requires team coordination be any use?
 
"No Pain, No Reward" versions of the same content, where the mechanics are there but don't really hurt?
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Somewhere to practice more advance boss telegraphs would be great, sure. It doesn't have to give you anything, just be an instanced training dummy. Since all of the bosses currently on tap have been downed I'm sure story-wise Protostar could create some sort of holographic boss practice session. When future raids are released, allow a window for guilds to down the new content before a trainer bot is created for everyone else. 
 
I think this would be unique and helpful to single players as well as groups. 
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What Kebs said. Seems like youve set up yourself for failing even before everythiung started.
 
Theres ALWAYS issues in groups, even in guild but especially randoms...and multiply that with the f2p launch with random smucks trying to act as king of the hill.
 
if you really enjoy WS go back and find a really good guild that best suits your own current skill level and do dungeons with them. Maybe in a few weeks youll farm all the veteran dungeons and se yourself be geared for raids 
 
Ive played WoW since vanilla and trust me random groups will never change, thats just the nature of pugs. Dont let yourself be thrown off your own plan,	
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			There's a FABkit that I can't remember the name of, but it takes you through a series of increasingly difficult telegraphs. That may help.
			
				
	Edited October 15, 2015 by Naunet	
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You will avoid all of this joining a Guild or playing with friends.
Random group will be always Random group, it's like a Russian Roulette, sometimes you get a really good random group, but sometimes you get the worst group ever and then they will do something wrong and blame either the Tank or the Heal because this is what pug works (if the trashtalker is tank or heal, he will call it low dps). :p
 
Try to join solo queue in Dota 2 with SEA and Russia enabled, you will see what is Hell on Earth.	
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What Kebs said. Seems like youve set up yourself for failing even before everythiung started.
 
Theres ALWAYS issues in groups, even in guild but especially randoms...and multiply that with the f2p launch with random smucks trying to act as king of the hill.
 
if you really enjoy WS go back and find a really good guild that best suits your own current skill level and do dungeons with them. Maybe in a few weeks youll farm all the veteran dungeons and se yourself be geared for raids 
 
Ive played WoW since vanilla and trust me random groups will never change, thats just the nature of pugs. Dont let yourself be thrown off your own plan,
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Somewhere to practice more advance boss telegraphs would be great, sure. It doesn't have to give you anything, just be an instanced training dummy. Since all of the bosses currently on tap have been downed I'm sure story-wise Protostar could create some sort of holographic boss practice session. When future raids are released, allow a window for guilds to down the new content before a trainer bot is created for everyone else. 
 
I think this would be unique and helpful to single players as well as groups. 
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			Good post, sorry to hear about your bad experience.  It seems there's quite a common problem with the difficulty jump to vet dungeons, especially as the game directs fresh 50s to them.	
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what a blocks. in wow there is almost no problem with random pugs. its wildstar because content is not pugable!
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What would you like to see here, Yas? Boss in a box "training sessions?"
How would learning a boss fight *SOLO* that requires team coordination be any use?
"No Pain, No Reward" versions of the same content, where the mechanics are there but don't really hurt?
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But honestly, I suspect that the best answer is an option to queue for a progression run that is on by default if you haven't done it yet and off by default if you have.
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Good post, sorry to hear about your bad experience.  It seems there's quite a common problem with the difficulty jump to vet dungeons, especially as the game directs fresh 50s to them.
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Yas, as much and loudly as you have been campaigning for soloers / new players, I have yet to see you offering to run vet dungeons with them, whether it's a learning run or a carry run.
 
Are you afraid of the repair bill yourself? Do you feel you wouldn't be able to help the newbies? Are you worried that you too will be frustrated with them?
 
Or are you just a politician?	
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Yas, as much and loudly as you have been campaigning for soloers / new players, I have yet to see you offering to run vet dungeons with them, whether it's a learning run or a carry run.
 
Are you afraid of the repair bill yourself? Do you feel you wouldn't be able to help the newbies? Are you worried that you too will be frustrated with them?
 
Or are you just a politician?
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			Slyjeff, I'm joining your damn guild.  I'm old, but not terrible at the game, and want to play with people who dont insta-disband at the first broken fingernail claiming they are too good for the group to run with super easy.	
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OP, sorry you had this experience. Really stinks to do your best to progress upward just to have some people stomp on you. This is the ugly side of playing with people, and people can be jerks.
 
 
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I'm still confused about why people consider this to be the good part of MMOs. It's just grinding the same instances over and over again to get higher numbers on your stat screen. The veteran instances aren't even much different from the regular ones. Protostar's bosses had some new mechanics, at least. Stormtalon was mostly the same, aside from the final boss's telegraphs being obnoxiously much faster. All in all, I spent loads of my time grinding just so I could do the same dungeons again. Honestly, it seems like a lame way of spending my time.
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Like "click here if you are pro" and "click here if your are new" ...
 
I get it and that would be a nice compromise *if* (and that's a PRETTY BIG IF)  the newbies would actually use the feature.
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This comes to any game that has a temporary, but remember it's a mmorpg so the story can continue until whenever it ends. When players hit cap is the time to do what most players do at the end. Max out professions, gear to the max as best you can and do activities with friends / guilds. Stuff  like dungeons, dailies, pvp, and whatever this game can offer for now. At least this game is f2p and if you want to invest more there's the cash shop for that option like any other similar elements mmorpgs out there. So you can always come back to this fun vibe and meeting more new players, old friends you've met here or like to introduce to this game.
 
As for the toxic well they always have been there maybe more due to the warcraft game in general, but ignore them because they're immature and stupid. They might not even know it themselves. You meet more of that toxic mentality towards pvp games and such. Many players these days or could be more have a sore loser mindset when things don't go their way. They won't admit their failures if they're the ones messing up the group, have to courage to actually work as a team and rather just stick to negative-ville. No matter what game you go towards you'll come across that and sometime it even runs in fanboys blood.
 
I can tolerate some toxic behaviour because I do play as a tank more than dps and sometimes I've come across groups that just like to kick undergear players for the heck of it. This was in WoW, but I'm happy that I can stand up to them and also keeping the team cool by not kicking that undergear player. I always say why do we need to kick? We're running smooth and haven't wiped. There's no need for something childish as that because that player is here to get gear. Sometimes I have dps taking over tank roles and healer starts healing them instead of me which is very disrespectful because they wish to move fast within the instance. This is another reason due to WoW Lfg features and the toxic players has increased because they're not from the same server so they don't have to deal with the same players. Lfg is necessary to get into a dungeon, but I believe we've should have the option to block certain players so we don't encounter them in the same dungeon group. It will become less toxic a bit, but our block limitations will have to increase. In due time those same players will notice they aren't in a good group anymore, but more of a toxic version. A toxic within a toxic and I wonder how long that group will last.
 
Anyways don't let this get to you or take away your fun becauuse we all deal with negativity in life as well. Think of this as a challenge of how much you can handle. I'm a tank I've been through many toxic as much as a healer. We're always blame for something a toxic caused for not listening to orders / mechanics.
			
				
	Edited October 15, 2015 by Turbotailz86	
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Good post, sorry to hear about your bad experience.  It seems there's quite a common problem with the difficulty jump to vet dungeons, especially as the game directs fresh 50s to them.
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Slyjeff, I'm joining your damn guild. I'm old, but not terrible at the game, and want to play with people who dont insta-disband at the first broken fingernail claiming they are too good for the group to run with super easy.
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I guess I'm just confused that you intentionally skipped veteran adventures and then moved to veteran dungeons directly. You do get better gear in adventures, so if you're skipping that gear step, should probably snag some AH items just to make sure you're ready for vet dungeons.
 
If your problem was not dpsing something (like not at all, or not fast enough?) then gear could be a factor. 
 
And aside from all that, this is what the current wildstar community enjoys about vet dungeons. So my recommendation is to hang out in vet adventures a bit before going back to dungeons.
Also! Moe Pork ( a youtuber) has been making awesome boss guides
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3kbhbj9CcA
 
This video is for Slavemaster Drokk, the bot boss you mentioned. I'd recomend checking out his videos and then doing vet KV (kel voreth) and STL (storm talons lair) as these are the easiest of teh veteran dungeons.
 
Dont worry, it's rough being 50, but it's a lot of fun if you get over that initial learning curve hump.
			
				
	Edited October 15, 2015 by Kezra	
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Yas, as much and loudly as you have been campaigning for soloers / new players, I have yet to see you offering to run vet dungeons with them, whether it's a learning run or a carry run.
Are you afraid of the repair bill yourself? Do you feel you wouldn't be able to help the newbies? Are you worried that you too will be frustrated with them?
Or are you just a politician?
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A mechanism that allows me to queue for the content with other people who also require practice and haven't got it down yet would be great. Anyone who wants to come in as an expert and offer help is certainly welcome, as long as their gear is rallied down to the dungeon's position in the gear progression so they can't "teach" the rest of us how its done by carrying us through it.
 
I expect that my experience is not that uncommon. Certainly I found that the OP's description of their experience going from leveling to endgame matched very well with my own and with most of the people who came with me to this game--most of whom, by the way, are long gone.
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			Slyjeff stop trying to be the moderate voice of reason on the internet.  You are banned from the forums for using common sense and having goodwill towards your fellow human beings.	
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<.<
 
 
of course! whats an mmo with 'that' guy!	
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I wasn't expecting this many replies. Glad to hear I'm not the only one having these issues. I know soloing in MMOs defeats the point of playing one, it's a big reason why I don't usually play them. Still, I enjoyed the questing and was disappointed my experience was so much worse at the level cap. I don't think I'll be doing veteran dungeons anymore, they really didn't seem like something I'll enjoy. I'll look into other content in the game and talk with my guild.
 
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just out of curiosity, did you happen to inform them that you were new to the dungeon?  I know at this point in f2p it can generally be assumed, but groups tend to be more forgiving when people talk and explain to the other people it is their first time and could use some explanations.  you seem to be the type of player that enjoys more solo content than anything, sorry if i missed the mark.  have you tried contracts, daily zones, world bosses, or even housing?  these might be more up your alley and will generally steer you clear of epeen trolls. 
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Ha! Something I can track with you on, finally, Yasfan :P
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			Well, I'm certainly wouldn't lobby against the idea if Carbine decided to give it a whirl. I'd probably take advantage of it myself, especially if such a queue came with an automatic rally and some extra's like sellable decor/costumes/rune fragments/gold/glory and such.	
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I queued for the first veteran dungeon instead. Right away, I noticed that there was a huge difficulty jump. The first boss already required much better reflexes than anything before. Still, we beat it after a couple of wipes and discussion on strategy. Everyone except one person was new to the instance. I thought we had a good team going, even if we died several times on each boss.
We got to the boss with all the running bots in it. We wiped a couple of times again, and people were claiming that I wasn't destroying the bots with the lance attack. I was trying to, and told them so. After one wipe, they suddenly voted me out. After two hours of patiently and politely trying to beat the instance. So after all that time spent, all I got was a 50 gold repair bill. I was pissed, to say the least.
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			It seems from your post you never really attempted to join a guild/circle/channel with similar players. I never really had issues with the difficulty but when I played with someone and they did well I would message them and add them to friends before I knew it I had a consistent group going. Dungeons have been nerfed already btw. In ssm for example they removed having to do all the wings and a lot of trash packs. They also added those speed buff chevrons. The requirement for getting silver seems much easier and lastly nobody had access to all the gear we do today	
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I know being undergeared was part of the reason, I'm just not interested in the adventures. It should be possible to beat the dungeons with my current gear, even if it's not optimal. I was doing the most dps in the Protostar dungeon according to one of the party members, so I should've been doing well enough to finish it.
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Well, I'm certainly wouldn't lobby against the idea if Carbine decided to give it a whirl. I'd probably take advantage of it myself, especially if such a queue came with an automatic rally and some extra's like sellable decor/costumes/rune fragments/gold/glory and such.
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See the thing is you have to do some gearing up to be able to perform decently in vet dungeons.  starting out in vets in quest greens is not a good idea.  a group of fresh 50's in greens are not going to be able to finish a vet dungeon easily.  the progression path is vet expeditions, then adventures, then dungeons and world bosses.  if you try to skip, being new and inexperienced, you are not doing yourself any favors and will likely have issues in pug groups.  runes are also a big part of the equation as most secondary stats that boost performance are now obtained by runing gear.  and being top dps in a dungeon does not indicate anything.  if everyone was not ready to be there then you were the best of them and that would lead to issues.
 
there is also the old adage: if at first you don't succeed, try, try again.
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I actually think that would be a bad idea. The goal is not to incentivize people into those instances who already have it mastered. The goal is to let people who want to try it and practice it and sort it out themselves actually try it and practice it and sort it out. Themselves.
 
People who actually want to teach it or to run with newer players shouldn't be excluded, and the loot shouldn't be worse in a progression run, but it shouldn't be better either because.the best way to fill it with people who are just there to farm for the loot is to offer better loot for doing it.
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I wasn't expecting this many replies. Glad to hear I'm not the only one having these issues. I know soloing in MMOs defeats the point of playing one, it's a big reason why I don't usually play them. Still, I enjoyed the questing and was disappointed my experience was so much worse at the level cap. 
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Actually, Reath, just a FYI: 60-70% of the playerbase plays mostly solo. That's from this game's own development team. You are not doing it wrong and people who are claiming otherwise don't have the facts on their side on this one.
 
MMORPGs do have group PvE content, but that is just one of many different ways in which players interact, cooperate, and compete in MMORPGs.
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Trying not to be discouraged, I queued for Veteran Stormtalon three times afterwards. This time, people were much ruder to me when I failed. One guy shouted insults at me. The atmosphere in the veteran dungeons is much more toxic than in the normal dungeons. After all that time I spent getting gear for the dungeons, the only thing I got out of it was being told how much I suck and then votekicked out.
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I haven't completed a vet dungeon myself for the same reasons as the OP, so I think I understand where they're coming from.
 
 
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Man, I'm sorry you got such a raw deal when you tried veteran dungeons.
 
Reading your post...I kind of get the feeling that either MMOs aren't the genre for you OR that you just need a consistent group of friends/guildmates to run content with.  The unfortunate fact of the matter is that running group content with random people can range anywhere from totally awesome (people are doing well and chatting and fun tiiiimes!) to utterly abhorrent (this guy is an arrogant douche-hose and oh my god this is taking forever) and...that's just a problem with people.  You can impose penalties and restrictions but the unfortunate fact of the matter is that there's not really an effective means to stop people from being like that.
 
Sometimes it's not even because they're bad people.  There's folks that want to run the max level dungeons...but they get stuck with someone that isn't geared enough or doesn't know the fights or simply isn't reacting fast enough.  They keep at it for an hour but keep failing and the group falls apart.  Crap, I just waste an hour getting frustrated.  Oh well, another group.  Same thing happens...again.  Suddenly I'm not a happy camper and the next group I get into has MORE people that are wasting time with failure and I no longer want to be a nice person.  I'm upset and exasperated and I really just don't have any proof that these people are actually putting effort into things.
 
Sometimes you have to roll with the punches or avoid the situation entirely.
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Sad thing is that I barely run pugs anymore just due to the fact that it is SO MUCH EASIER to coordinate interrupts or adjustments in a voice chat then it is to wipe and type it all out.  I usually never go without a couple guildies because of this fact.  More often than not I find that if and when I do get into a full blown pug it's not so much a dps issue than it is a coordination issue.  I get that people know to dodge red but if someone throws the interrupt order out of whack or borks a mechanic it's often hard to adjust when not in voice comms unless the group just somehow gels together in a weird fashion.
 
I'm all for teaching new peeps as I have done it in some mmo's (my most recent being swtor, going in as a tank to vet dungeons and explaining mechanics as well as telling the few healers who asked for a guard that they didn't need one).  Was always fun when being complemented by healers when they came out on the other side when listening to my advice. 
 
Again, just due to the nature of WS I find it to be so much easier over voice comms than typing, some will hate that and others will love it but I digress.
			
				
	Edited October 15, 2015 by Bacon_21	
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Although im not max level I don't know why they do not have some sort of dungeon mentor system. Basically one person can mentor another player who has less than x amount of runs done in the particular dungeon. When that happens the dungeon group gets a mentor buff that gives increased rewards for the dungeon and zero damage to equipment upon dying and if the mentee gets kicked in the dungeon the buff will be removed. 
 
The increased reward is because you will be doing a run with at least one person who is not used to the dungeon and therefore its more than likely to go slower than a run with everyone who has done the dungeon many times before and zero repair costs because in the same sense you will probably die alot more than a normal run. I would hope the above would encourage groups to have at least one new player in them and as it requires a max level and less than x amount of dungeons I doubt it could be exploited.
 
At least this way it will drip feed new players into the vet dungeons rather than just now which appears to be alienating them. 	
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Let me get this straight....  The OP wanted to get into end game.  Was the right ilvl for the harder dungeons.  Got verbally abused by other players as he is trying to do what needs to be done and then kicked because of this.  So because he didn't like being treated like that multiple times then MMOs aren't for them?  LMAO simply wow.
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I think TT already said vet dungeons are tuned for iLvl 70 (challenging but doable). If you have a full group if iLvl60, you are going to have a rough time.
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Actually, I said in my post that I geared. I had iLevel 60 blues with class appropriate runes. Also, I inspected the other players and they had higher level gear than mine. I don't think gear was the issue.
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			Yes, it is true that ilevel 70, fully runed, is the target the dungeons were tuned for.	
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Sad thing is that I barely run pugs anymore just due to the fact that it is SO MUCH EASIER to coordinate interrupts or adjustments in a voice chat then it is to wipe and type it all out.  I usually never go without a couple guildies because of this fact.  More often than not I find that if and when I do get into a full blown pug it's not so much a dps issue than it is a coordination issue.  I get that people know to dodge red but if someone throws the interrupt order out of whack or borks a mechanic it's often hard to adjust when not in voice comms unless the group just somehow gels together in a weird fashion.
 
I'm all for teaching new peeps as I have done it in some mmo's (my most recent being swtor, going in as a tank to vet dungeons and explaining mechanics as well as telling the few healers who asked for a guard that they didn't need one).  Was always fun when being complemented by healers when they came out on the other side when listening to my advice. 
 
Again, just due to the nature of WS I find it to be so much easier over voice comms than typing, some will hate that and others will love it but I digress.
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well saying it's tuned for ilvl70 is hard to decipher, ilvl70 runed or not runed? ilvl60 with cheapest and highest possible level runes for ilvl60 gear gives my esper as much dmg as a GA ready character pre-drop, maybe a bit above even.
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Yeah, I suppose I should have gotten better gear. The expeditions just fit me well since you can do them quickly and solo. After all that time spent getting and runing the ilvl 60 gear, I really didn't want to do the same again with adventure gear. The guide I read said the veteran dungeons were doable with ilvl 60 gear, so I went with that.
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Dungeons have changed a lot since launch, IE gotten easier, but they are still no push over.
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So, you like so many others, instead of finding others, aka making your own group to learn the fights, decide that LFG is the only method to doing vets? 
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Not that much. A few QoL changes recently, but mostly they are easier because of community knowledge and people having generally better gear.
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Are you kidding me? SSM was cut in half and almost 70% of the base pop (trash) was taken out. Things have changed a lot.
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Nah, the content finder isn't the only method of doing vets. Just the only method that I can click "queue" for and do other stuff while I wait for the queue to pop no matter how many of my friends are online or interested in running PvE content, any and every time the mood strikes me.
 
So it isn't the only method. Just the only convenient method that is always a viable option when I feel like it instead of when I and 4 of my friends who happen to be at the same stage of progression feel like it.
 
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/1 LF2M vet STL, any role. Not a speed run.
 
Damn, that was -so- hard. Think I'll just go request for an automated system that magically puts me in an group. Automatically!
 
Many moons ago, Nephele tried to organize learning runs for anyone who wanted to learn STL/KV, even scheduled groups few days in advance. The reception was lukewarm at best. It was surprising to see so few took up on his generous offer.	
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You don't need people at the same stage as you because as you have expressed want to help people learn. So take people learning with you. Help the community you are rallying for so often
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The reason people are saying that MMOs are probably not for the OP is because the OP said:
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			Back in my day, we sat in trade chat for hours, sometimes days, looking for groups for certain content we wanted to do, occasionally settling for a dungeon we didn't really need to do but kind of liked enough to join in hopes maybe the group would return the favor of doing the dungeon we wanted to do.  Those days, we had closer community that helped educate each other because otherwise, we would have to begin the process of looking for people all over again. These days, kids have that new fangled Looking for Group tool that automates that process for you and even goes across realms, which also doesn't help considering if someone knows you can't contact them outside of that dungeon, the troll mentality increases!I remember doing Sunken Temple in WoW back in the day and every one of us being terrible at our job and the priest in the group, who was the same level as each of us, actually survived and cleared out the entire floor we were on by himself before resurrecting us just so we could complete the dungeon easier, partially because the tank kept pulling way too many things and was way to squishy.  The priest was a great guy though and I never saw him again after that, but he never insisted on kicking anyone nor did he resort to insults.  The rest of us learned a lot about the game since then. The time before the Looking for Group tools are an important time in MMOs to me because it felt like there were less jerks and more fun for players of all skill levels.  Believe it or not, not everyone can learn just from reading a well written guide.  Some people need to experience the content through trial and error.  If these are the people you do not wish to group with, do not use LFG.  At the same time, if you don't want to encounter jerks, do not use LFG.  Basically, do not use the LFG tool. Actually, don't listen to me.  Use the LFG tool but if you are a veteran level player or higher, teach someone how to play. You whipper snappers disgust me.	
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Honestly, I put in the time doing expeditions and adventures and achieving ilvl68-ilvl70 so that I KNEW I was removing any possibility of hindering a group via gear (skill is another component). I also spent a plat or two outfitting this gear with runes. This took maybe a day or two off my progression to assure personal success in vet dungeons, and to an extent, I now expect other people to do the same when I queue for a dungeon. You don't get to skip two tiers of content (maybe one, depending on the group) and get ilvl80's; You're by no means entitled to that, no one is. I don't care if you can stay alive or are a super skilled player, it's irrelevant if you're pulling a fraction of the DPS that another player is. Skill can be improved on the spot, gear cant. 
 
I still get groups that have ilvl 40-55 people in it and I give them one shot on a boss (To see if they've broken all logic and can pull higher DPS with lower ilvl gear) and then I call the player out, ask them to leave, if they don't - vote kick. If people don't vote kick, then I remove myself from the situation. I will never vote-kick another player above ilvl60 UNLESS they are, once again by defying all logic, pulling insanely low DPS (like 500-1000). 
 
Honestly, if WOW felt it was necessary to have ilvl requirements and proving grounds for vastly easier content, this game might want to consider it. At least proving grounds. 	
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I wouldn't say that being disappointed at how vet dungeons are nothing but tuned up normals means that MMOs are not for the OP. That's actually a legitimate complaint. I wish more devs took FFXIV's route in designing "hard mode"-style dungeons. There, "hard mode" Haukke Manor, for example, may be set in the same location as the leveling dungeon, but the bosses are new and the pathing through the dungeon is different, with some additional passageways and such.
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Honestly, I put in the time doing expeditions and adventures and achieving ilvl68-ilvl70 so that I KNEW I was removing any possibility of hindering a group via gear (skill is another component). I also spent a plat or two outfitting this gear with runes.
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I wouldn't say that being disappointed at how vet dungeons are nothing but tuned up normals means that MMOs are not for the OP. That's actually a legitimate complaint. I wish more devs took FFXIV's route in designing "hard mode"-style dungeons. There, "hard mode" Haukke Manor, for example, may be set in the same location as the leveling dungeon, but the bosses are new and the pathing through the dungeon is different, with some additional passageways and such.
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This isnt at all what i said or what the OP said. Reread what I quoted from the OPs post. The OP said that grinding dungeons for better gear isn't fun. Last time I checked that was end game (just substitute raids for dungeons)
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This was also a pretty big issue I had with the game. After all the work I put into getting ready for the dungeon, it was anticlimactic that it was essentially the same thing with higher damage numbers. The only actual changes were pretty simple, like the telegraphs being sped up. I would have expected there to be more to it than that, but it felt like I was repeating the same dungeon again. It didn't feel like it was worth the effort it took to get there.
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This isnt at all what i said or what the OP said. Reread what I quoted from the OPs post. The OP said that grinding dungeons for better gear isn't fun. Last time I checked that was end game (just substitute raids for dungeons)
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No, I did actually mean that as well, like I replied above. I mentioned it briefly in the OP post.
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Apologies if I misrepresented what you intended from your post. I took it that you were saying you didn't like the grind. I do not disagree that the dungeons having variations of the mechanics would be fun and interesting, but wouldn't that defeat the purpose of using them as practice for the Vets?
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Out of curiosity's sake, when you runed out your gear, did you re-roll slots or go for sets? Or did you pretty much just slot whatever you could? I've been assuming that the latter is good enough for vet dungeons, but I haven't really met anyone who I could ask (as most of the people I play with regularly are beyond this stage of things).
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I did dislike the gear grind too, especially since it didn't feel like it was worth it in the end. The OP post may have been a bit unclear on that, I tried to keep it brief so it didn't turn into a total wall of text.
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The gear grind issues i can agree with, but those end, kinda, once you get into a raid as long as you enjoy progressing wth your guild/friends you raid with.
 
The initial gear seems.....unimpressive, but you can buy a full set of ilvl 65 gear frm the pvp vendor for gold and it works better than expedition gear in PVE. Once you get this, no real point in renown gear.
 
That being said, i am not sure how the "grind" can ever go away. Sometimes it seems like progression in raids is the "grind". If that's not entertaining then I wouldn't know what to recommend.
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			just wait a bit we have Blade and Soul, i'm betting on this one.	
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{| class="blockquote"
just wait a bit we have Blade and Soul, i'm betting on this one.
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This is my first post, so I might not fit the line here.
 
However,
 
what the OP said is a very typical thing in MMO´s these days. People are just rude towards other people and they are not because content is hard, but because they can! WOW has no real difficulty anymore, yet you can be insulted there right from the get go.
Many other games are the same, insults or rude behavior like kicks are not to be accepted or tolerated just because content is hard, someone bad or anything else didn't fit. I remember a time in MMO´s, when we actually helped each other, didn't farm items or tried to beat timers. This was the time when everyone respected the other, today this is sadly gone...
 
Most of the rude people tend to forget that a pug is a group of randoms and not a guild run to farm or progress. These people have the idea in their heads, that they would be the center of the universe and therefore everyone must fit their high standards.
 
While I am not yet 50, I read this forum every evening and all I see is "got kicked", "people rude" ... If this really is WS, then I will probably not keep playing. In my opinion, Carbine must get to work here - put restrictions on the kick button, don't let premades queue, punish those who kick or swear ... While this game is F2P and everyone can just make account after account, it should not serve as an excuse to not act.
 
Games are supposed to be a hobby and be fun, there is no place for those who harass others.	
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{| class="blockquote"
This is my first post, so I might not fit the line here.
 
However,
 
what the OP said is a very typical thing in MMO´s these days. People are just rude towards other people and they are not because content is hard, but because they can! WOW has no real difficulty anymore, yet you can be insulted there right from the get go.
Many other games are the same, insults or rude behavior like kicks are not to be accepted or tolerated just because content is hard, someone bad or anything else didn't fit. I remember a time in MMO´s, when we actually helped each other, didn't farm items or tried to beat timers. This was the time when everyone respected the other, today this is sadly gone...
 
Most of the rude people tend to forget that a pug is a group of randoms and not a guild run to farm or progress. These people have the idea in their heads, that they would be the center of the universe and therefore everyone must fit their high standards.
 
While I am not yet 50, I read this forum every evening and all I see is "got kicked", "people rude" ... If this really is WS, then I will probably not keep playing. In my opinion, Carbine must get to work here - put restrictions on the kick button, don't let premades queue, punish those who kick or swear ... While this game is F2P and everyone can just make account after account, it should not serve as an excuse to not act.
 
Games are supposed to be a hobby and be fun, there is no place for those who harass others.
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I enjoyed the levelling process a lot, and was disappointed that what most people claim is the best part of MMOs was so boring to me.
 
I'm still confused about why people consider this to be the good part of MMOs. It's just grinding the same instances over and over again to get higher numbers on your stat screen. The veteran instances aren't even much different from the regular ones. Protostar's bosses had some new mechanics, at least. Stormtalon was mostly the same, aside from the final boss's telegraphs being obnoxiously much faster. All in all, I spent loads of my time grinding just so I could do the same dungeons again. Honestly, it seems like a lame way of spending my time.
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There is a guide for gearing up.. And Veteran Adventures is listed as a proper step. Ignoring that step in the gearing up process.. well thats on the op. Ignoring idea of finding like minded people or like skilled people to do dungeons with is also on the op. Any person who decides to base their endgame enjoyment on random chance via random group dungeons is not wisely playing. You are basing the enjoyment of the game on random chance. This is not Diablo3 where random chance is the name of the game. This is an MMo. Multiplayer is the big part. Willing to be social is really does make MMOS why people got into them in the first place. MMo's  did not get popular because players only want to play solo. 
Join a circle or a guild. Drop the lone wolf mentality and Make friends. Do this and the enjoyment of Wildstar will jump up thousandfold. IF you can't do that.. Play elder scrolls online. Because thats a game more suited for single minded players.	
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The OP has a valid point here. I find it amusing that when I always question why people think "endgame" is the best part of the game I get all sorts of hate and what-not. No, the endgame is honestly there because they need a cheap and easy way to keep you playing in the long term, one that doesn't require as much work for the creators. I understand WHY, after all the detail that goes into levelling content is a lot more difficult to do than to just slap on a raid and call it a day.
 
To be honest, you're looking for a more narrative driven game. "The Secret World" does this well, and to date is the ONLY game I've seen do it well. All other MMos fall apart when they hit "raids". Honestly, the raid, and to some degree the dungeon, is the worst design choice made in these sorts of games. As the OP noted, it fractures the community into the "elite" and the "unwashed masses", and drives away anyone who is more interested in story or having fun in favor of those who just want to crunch numbers and scream about said numbers.
 
I tried my hand at raiding. I hated it. Enjoy the levelling process, and complete ALL the story missions in the game as you level. Ignore the rest, and create an alt when you get to max. The "endgame" isn't worth it...  it never is.	
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This happened to many ppl at launch as well- it was the attunement wall
 
However nowadays it much better because of the expeditions ,contracts and nerfed attunement :)
End game is 10x better now than before	
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Most of the rude people tend to forget that a pug is a group of randoms and not a guild run to farm or progress. These people have the idea in their heads, that they would be the center of the universe and therefore everyone must fit their high standards.
 
While I am not yet 50, I read this forum every evening and all I see is "got kicked", "people rude" ... If this really is WS, then I will probably not keep playing. In my opinion, Carbine must get to work here - put restrictions on the kick button, don't let premades queue, punish those who kick or swear ... While this game is F2P and everyone can just make account after account, it should not serve as an excuse to not act.
 
Games are supposed to be a hobby and be fun, there is no place for those who harass others.
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A board type lfg where you state intent is a better tool than the random queue system we currently have considering WildStar should aim for continuous influx of players and therefore the risk of mingling different expectations remains. 
 
"learning group" versus "farm" ads on the board. 
 
Won't help with people wanting to be carried, for that you still have the kick feature. It will help people wanting to learn by doing find like-minded individuals though. 
 
OP, if you like hard content, dungeons is the way to go, full stop. They are hard and fun. But pugging them has always been a very unfriendly proposition with WildStar's community. I loved them and yet at 50 I also shied away from them after horrible vet adventure experiences and lots of unpleasant posts on the forums. 
 
A fun way to get better gear to help with some of the pain in dungeons is to do world boss and world event tier 3 contracts. Great rewards and a ton more fun than get 50 mats. 
 
The only smooth experience with the fun hard content of WildStar is to get into a guild that actually runs together and has people of various levels of experience. 
 
Good luck.
			
				
	Edited October 16, 2015 by DeaHamlet	
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{| class="blockquote"
what u are looking for is story, unfortunately the story at lvl 50 is very very short (new game so lore is pretty shallow for the moment)
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