112248-carbine-haventand-they-still-dont-teachedcontributed-players-to-form-value-and-respect-groups-big-mistake-page-2

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Honestly, though, that's EXACTLY what we're talking about.  In this game, a healer can't pick up a DPS who doesn't know how to get out of the red.  If the guy's dad left because he didn't "feel" like he was doing enough, odds are he'd leave anyway.  You could raid vanilla WoW all day, in the end this isn't WoW.
 
There are only two possibilities in that particular case, where he's doing just fine on meters but people wipe too often, and this happens consistently:
 
A:  The people they run with all the time aren't getting out of the red or catching heals and are making it impossible,
 
B:  The father played too many soft MMORPGs lately and can't take that he can't single-handedly drag people through an instance.
 
In no way, shape, or form should the game ever be adjusted because people feel like they can't single-handedly save bad players or because they don't want to ever wipe.  If you'd like, I could take a few minutes and start pulling up some posts saying that the game should never be made easier just because someone didn't like how difficult it feels.  I have a feeling a few will appear soon anyway. 
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Yep, it will indeed. I don't want to post details as that is not something that my team works on, but the next drop will have the first of the solo world story instances and Caydiem's team has already dropped some hints about Veteran Shiphands.
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In no way, shape, or form should the game ever be adjusted because people feel like they can't single-handedly save bad players or because they don't want to ever wipe. 
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I don't get why you're so against this game becoming financially successful.  Do you have a grudge against the Carbine staff or something, that you want them all thrown out of work? 
 
If nerfing the living crap out of the game would make it financially successful, that's what should happen. (And will happen if the Powers That Be think it will be effective, because even if Carbine wants to die on Hardcore Hill, there's no way in heaven or hell NCSoft wants that, and NCSoft calls the shots, ultimately.)  If the game can be rescued with lesser measures, okay.  But "In no way shape or form should this every happen" says you'd rather see Wildstar vanish than see it change. I find that really hard to understand....possibly because I've worked in the industry and know how difficult it is to get in the door as a game designer, and I have more empathy for Carbine's staff than you seem to.
 
Carbine should do what Carbine needs to do to get this game's population stabilized into profitability, whatever changes that takes.
 
Actually there's no "should" about it. 
 
It's a "must".   
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I don't get why you're so against this game becoming financially successful.  Do you have a grudge against the Carbine staff or something, that you want them all thrown out of work? 
 
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W* is in no danger of being unsuccessful.
 
It was the highest selling NCSoft product besides Lineage in Q2. And in fairness, Lineage is the most successful MMO franchise in the history of MMO's, with an accumulated 43+ million players and a total profit of just under 2 billion USD.  
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Okay, I won't call "strawman" on you, but I will say that all your info proves is that Wildstar has proven it has what it takes to be a straw fire.   :P
And we aren't content with that. We want more.
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We agree, and are working to create both more to do and more incentives for players to dive in to the group content during the leveling process:
We are creating a level 10 'tutorial' dungeon that is aimed at teaching groups of our players the sorts of mechanics that they will see most often within the dungeon content going forward. The instance will be much easier--comparatively--to the other dungeons, but should help teach players stuff like how IA armor works and class roles.
We are (very soon) adding quests for leveling players to complete each dungeon and adventure that have some sweet rewards in order to encourage them to dive in during the leveling process.
The rewards--both items, xp, and gold--are being reviewed for the leveling dungeons and likely boosted up to feel more accurately rewarding for the challenge required to complete them.
While these changes do not require players to be more polite to each other, they should help in encouraging folks to both learn and accept the challenge of our group content during the leveling process.
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Since I can't "Like" a dev post, I'm just going to quote you.
 
This is awesome :D
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W* is in no danger of being unsuccessful.
 
It was the highest selling NCSoft product besides Lineage in Q2. And in fairness, Lineage is the most successful MMO franchise in the history of MMO's, with an accumulated 43+ million players and a total profit of just under 2 billion USD.  
 
As for OP, it isn't Carbines job to teach MMO players how to be decent social players. Though it does look like some systems are on the horizon to help ease players into group content more gently.
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This is true. But again there is a big difference between doing a dungeon with four other people you met in town, and are likely to run into again, and doing one in a Xrealm LFG with people you don`t know, usually don`t talk to much, if at all, and will never meet again. Your behavior and performance in the former group will have consequences, both for good and bad.
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Hey, I hear ya Flsh. I played FFXI for over 10 years, and while I appreciate the community I had on Ramuh, even I didn't always remember the bad players by name; I would usually remember them by guild affiliation. Most often disucssions of bad players would actually be discussions of what guilds to be wary of when grouping; and which were known for their good players. 
 
This type of recollection will probably still happen in W* even with the megaservers; in the end the problem is solved by running content with the people you know and trust from guilds / circles. The best part about the LFD / LFG system is that you don't have to use it if you don't want to :)
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			Maybe the problem isn't games that promote accessibility or ease-of-use or 'instant gratification' as folks are calling it today.  Maybe the problem is the games that focus on obessing over 'loot' and 'BIS gear' and other such nonsense, and in doing so teaches players to regard others as tools or obstacles in acquiring it.	
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 Maybe the problem is the games that focus on obessing over 'loot' and 'BIS gear' and other such nonsense, and in doing so teaches players to regard others as tools or obstacles in acquiring it.
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I think this is an excellent point. I know it's not comparable 1:1 because it's all a very different system and the game has a very "casual" reputation in general, but I've rarely seen this kind of behavior in GW2. The worst I've seen happen was a ragequit because a dungeon run wasn't going fast enough for a party member's taste.
Guess what: Loot in that game is mostly "whatever". And it's character based, not roll based.
I won't deny the game has many systemic problems, but they've neutralized a major source of grief in Wildstar very efficiently.
 
Greed is a disgusting basic human instinct that is the root of most evil in the world.
As I posted earlier, devs should try to counteract it when considering game systems.
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I think this is an excellent point. I know it's not comparable 1:1 because it's all a very different system and the game has a very "casual" reputation in general, but I've rarely seen this kind of behavior in GW2. The worst I've seen happen was a ragequit because a dungeon run wasn't going fast enough for a party member's taste.
Guess what: Loot in that game is mostly "whatever". And it's character based, not roll based.
I won't deny the game has many systemic problems, but they've neutralized a major source of grief in Wildstar very efficiently.
 
Greed is a disgusting basic human instinct that is the root of most evil in the world.
As I posted earlier, devs should try to counteract it when considering game systems.
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I think this is an excellent point. I know it's not comparable 1:1 because it's all a very different system and the game has a very "casual" reputation in general, but I've rarely seen this kind of behavior in GW2. The worst I've seen happen was a ragequit because a dungeon run wasn't going fast enough for a party member's taste.
Guess what: Loot in that game is mostly "whatever". And it's character based, not roll based.
I won't deny the game has many systemic problems, but they've neutralized a major source of grief in Wildstar very efficiently.
 
Greed is a disgusting basic human instinct that is the root of most evil in the world.
As I posted earlier, devs should try to counteract it when considering game systems.
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There's something to be said for the dichotomy.  Diablo goes one way by throwing loot at you and you sort out whether its an incremental upgrade.  Monster Hunter goes the other way by making each piece of gear worth 10 or so hunts on the same thing.
 
Honestly, I felt like our actions get trivialized, but I'm aware that it's a minority opinion I have.  Most players want to blow through multiple quests at a time, progressing the story, getting to the endgame in a hurry, etc.  I once wrote out a concept MMORPG that I thought would be the perfect MMORPG.  It wasn't like Wildstar, and it certainly wouldn't have been one I think many other players would want to play.  Wildstar's about the best kind of game you can get out of the industry because it's so great at its core that even someone like me knows it's amazing.
 
But no month-long crawls through dungeons where it can take 15-20 hours of travel time to even get where you want to be and 15-20 hours to get back, always being in danger, always feeling alone and being ecstatic to see another player, no compass or quest pointers, just a map, brutal difficulty over extended periods where you need supplies, your gear won't last forever unless you go back to town, etc. etc. etc.
 
I think mine would instantly flop.  Too little instant gratification.
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 I consider willful ignorance or stupidity as the cause of most of humanities problem and see greed as a more specific subset of stupidity. Why want more than you can possibly use?
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			Maybe we need the announcer do record some more VO so when you get really big crits, skill shot a heal that save somebody, or deflect a crit he calls you an epic cupcake who rules his world?	
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*sigh* I want to believe it's not the "serious business" side of things that caused Wildstar's status quo.
I want to believe a game can be hard like Wildstar and have mostly helpful/friendly community. 
 
Well as usual, the best we can do is try to be the change we want to see.  :unsure:
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Disclaimer: I read the first page and skipped the rest... Just throwing my 2 cents into the pot.
 
Wildstar was my first true stab at an MMO, and for all intents and purposes, it is my first. I came into the game with one RL friend who had played WoW, and that was it. I played with him for a bit, but not really. Even today we don't play together so much as just chat together.
 
That aside, I formed a guild, an MMO newbie and it's doing pretty well, I think.
 
Point is, I started out pretty much not knowing anyone, and I took it upon myself to SOCIALIZE, banter in zone chat in Thayd or in Housing because I was having trouble with some things and needed help, or clarity on certain things about MMOs.  The thing is, it's not so much a game as it is a virtual world, and that's really what it is. It's up to you to be social. I did it, I used my chat box and eventually I formed friendships and and brought together a happy little family of guildies, just by using the chat box and going out into the "world" and meeting people.
 
Think of it like that, instead of a game, because these kinds of "games" are unique, due to the social aspect of them. You're not gonna make friends in the real world by not ever talking to anyone, and the same applies inside Wildstar.	
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W* is in no danger of being unsuccessful.
 
It was the highest selling NCSoft product besides Lineage in Q2. And in fairness, Lineage is the most successful MMO franchise in the history of MMO's, with an accumulated 43+ million players and a total profit of just under 2 billion USD.  
 
As for OP, it isn't Carbines job to teach MMO players how to be decent social players. Though it does look like some systems are on the horizon to help ease players into group content more gently.
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			It is not a games job to hold your hand and guide you through the socializing parts of a mmo. It is up to the player to do such things, aion did hold your hand and honestly it was one of the most complained about issues on the forum at release. If WS did the same you would be in here complaining about how it forces you to socialize. So ether way people will complain.	
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W* is in no danger of being unsuccessful.
 
It was the highest selling NCSoft product besides Lineage in Q2. And in fairness, Lineage is the most successful MMO franchise in the history of MMO's, with an accumulated 43+ million players and a total profit of just under 2 billion USD.  
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You mean the same Wildstar that made only a few million more at launch than the nearly two year old GW2 did in the same quarter?
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You mean the same Wildstar that made only a few million more at launch than the nearly two year old GW2 did in the same quarter? The same Wildstar that went from valuing server communities to 'we planned to megaserver all along'? 
 
 
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EVERYONE KNOWS EVERYTHING ABOUT EVERYTHING EVER!
 
Except me as I'm not delusional and am aware that about 8/10 times I know jack shit.	
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Hey everyone,
 
Reminder from your friendly neighborhood moderation team to please help keep this thread on-topic.
 
Thanks,Team WildStar	
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Hey, I hear ya Flsh. I played FFXI for over 10 years, and while I appreciate the community I had on Ramuh, even I didn't always remember the bad players by name; I would usually remember them by guild affiliation. Most often disucssions of bad players would actually be discussions of what guilds to be wary of when grouping; and which were known for their good players. 
 
This type of recollection will probably still happen in W* even with the megaservers; in the end the problem is solved by running content with the people you know and trust from guilds / circles. The best part about the LFD / LFG system is that you don't have to use it if you don't want to :)
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Sure, but this was what Blizzard said when they released WSG, AB and AV back in 2005. "You don`t have to queue for BGs if you prefer WPVP.". And the problem with that was that since everyone else was in a BG, because that`s where you had to be to get PVP gear, you were pretty alone in Southshore for WPVP. Asking people to join dungeon runs, or indeed any grouped content, in WS has so far resulted in loads of tumbleweeds for me, even when there are people around who should be eligible and interested in it. Of course they`re all using the LFG; so even if I don`t want to use it personally, I am being forced to. Most of the time I really have no idea whether or not people I group with are even on my server. I sort of just presume they`re not. And that helps make what should be fun feel very impersonal and inconsequential. At least to me. I still have not had fun with grouped content in WS because of this stuff. I`m sure I will at some point though. It`d just be so much easier without the LFG.
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			You can't teach a cow to be a bird.	
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You can't teach a cow to be a bird.
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			Oh man... Well played Mr. Nazryn... well played	
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Of course they`re all using the LFG; so even if I don`t want to use it personally, I am being forced to. 
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What's the alternative?  Ten players want to use LFG, one doesn't, so the  ten should not be allowed to have their LFG because of what one player prefers? 
 
I heard this same argument against LFR in a different forum -- basically, it was "I don't want to use LFR, but since everyone else does, I either have to do that, or try to get into one of the real hardcore raids, and I don't want to get into the hardcore raids."  So this means no one should have LFR because it means you can't find a group to your liking any more? Because you're not adaptable?  
 
It astonishes me that any player can propose keeping other players from having game play options, because -- *gasp* -- those other players might actually use those options and not do things the way that player would prefer.  Isn't that kind of like a sandwich shop owner campaigning to keep all other deli chains out of his town, on the grounds that other people might actually go and eat at the other restaurants, and that would be bad for him?  I mean, he's right, it *WILL* be bad for him. No more monopoly. But is that an argument for not letting anyone eat anywhere but his restaurant? 
 
It's a shame you don't like LFG and don't want to use it, but other players do.  That's something you really just need to adjust to, as you can't reasonably make an argument that other people's choices should be restricted in order to keep you happy. And you can expect other players to be thoroughly irritated by you if you keep insisting that they be chained up to your playstyle preferences. 
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What's the alternative?  Ten players want to use LFG, one doesn't, so the  ten should not be allowed to have their LFG because of what one player prefers? 
 
I heard this same argument against LFR in a different forum -- basically, it was "I don't want to use LFR, but since everyone else does, I either have to do that, or try to get into one of the real hardcore raids, and I don't want to get into the hardcore raids."  So this means no one should have LFR because it means you can't find a group to your liking any more? Because you're not adaptable?  
 
It astonishes me that any player can propose keeping other players from having game play options, because -- *gasp* -- those other players might actually use those options and not do things the way that player would prefer.  Isn't that kind of like a sandwich shop owner campaigning to keep all other deli chains out of his town, on the grounds that other people might actually go and eat at the other restaurants, and that would be bad for him?  I mean, he's right, it *WILL* be bad for him. No more monopoly. But is that an argument for not letting anyone eat anywhere but his restaurant? 
 
It's a shame you don't like LFG and don't want to use it, but other players do.  That's something you really just need to adjust to, as you can't reasonably make an argument that other people's choices should be restricted in order to keep you happy. And you can expect other players to be thoroughly irritated by you if you keep insisting that they be chained up to your playstyle preferences. 
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			moooooooooooo	
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Long on ramble, short on getting the point. LFGs harm server communities, make the game less social and PVE activities less significant, just like instanced PVP directly causes less world PVP. Also, it might interest you to know that majority arguments are logical fallacies every time. If I hand out free heroin in schoolyards then more kids will use heroin. If I manage to get a majority of kids hooked on heroin it then becomes good, and only stubborn people who want to impose their heroin free ways on the noble majority will protest.
 
PS: this is satire, but it is your argument precisely, with different words.
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This isn't something that Carbin can change. The main issue with MMOs is that you have to be connected to the Internet and the Internet is full of meanies. In old days nobody would do something evil like for example gathering ore when you are fighting the mob that is guarding it. In todays age it happens a lot. There are too many players without any kind of moral values. "It is just a game, so who cares, right?" mentality is something that is getting worse year by year.
 
On the topic of LFG tool. The tool itself is great (even though I would like to see casual and hardcore option). Personally, I use it from time to time and I meet all kinds of people. It is true that usually it does not provide social experience, but I don't mind that. What I do mind tho are two types of players: 1) Ones that have to argue over stupid things. 2) Those who can only write the word "disband". I am totally okay when we fail a dungeon with Pug group. But when more than half of groups get disbanded after few wipes... it is kinda discouraging. On the other hand I was also able to have meaningful conversations with dozens of players so it kinda makes up for the negatives.	
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This isn't something that Carbin can change. The main issue with MMOs is that you have to be connected to the Internet and the Internet is full of meanies. In old days nobody would do something evil like for example gathering ore when you are fighting the mob that is guarding it. In todays age it happens a lot.
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In old days nobody would do something evil like for example gathering ore when you are fighting the mob that is guarding it. 
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There should be no auto-macthing group finder functionality.
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'People on the internet are mean' is a flimsy excuse.  Carbine can definitely change it's design philosophy to encourage better player behavior.
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This is moreso an @Carbine rant for me.
 
Everyone is not discussing the big fat elephant in the room so i'll go ahead and say it, Why I quit Wildstar: 
 
Lack of sh*t to do at End-Game. Period!
 
After maxing out 2 champions, completing GA, and dabbling in some Arena PvP, I have come to the conclusion that the game has little to incentivize people to continue playing.
 
At end game you fall into either two categories, a PvPer or a PvEr. Each require a level of commitment that the average player won't be able to do.
 
 
If you PvE, you have to do the attunement process, which I am all for and was the only thing I truly enjoyed about the game. The problem comes down to the raids being setup as both a 20 and 40 man raid. When a guild completes GA the 20 man raid, they then must either recruit 20 other players, or merge with another guild to do the 40 man. This broke down the community quickly first for the top tier raiding guilds, and then later for the mid tier guilds. Not only that, the gear for raiders is complete sh*t in GA due to the rune system, and crafted gear was Best in Slot for a lot of the pieces. Another problem was that 1800 arena pvp weapons were also BIS for PvE till Ohmna weapons. Overall this stunk with a lot of the PvErs out there, including me, which is why I bailed.
 
On the other hand, PvPer's end game content was supposed to be war plots, which are extremely fun, but the amount of players needed to do one, and the 40 man requirement caused most of the player base.to not even experience it at all. The only other way to get gear was through 1800 Arena ratings and so forth, which became just flavor of the month and a lot of loopholes in the game system players took advantage of. 
 
So its extremely difficult to have casual players enjoy wildstar at end game as each category requires a certain level of commitment that the average player will not be willing to bear, unless they enjoy leveling alts, collecting all the items for their house, or doing the monotony of mind numbing dailies. 
 
Solutions I recommend is to drop the raids down to 20 or even 30man raids. Competition such as guild rivalries is an important factor to a healthy community. 40 man raids are hindering it as the population of players can't sustain that big of raids. As for PvP, it should be enjoyable in its own right; the current gear itemization change was helpful but still problematic, BiS for both PvP and PvE as well??? What were you thinking. Another recommendation is they should bring back Elite Zones. I don't know why people are so scared to have base population out in an open zone require group play. It would give the zone an end-game feel. Tie some quests together that people have to grind out for decent gears/materials, and add some bosses or "rare spawns" that drop good gear and the casual will have something to do. Stop giving the community derpy content that is watered down. The casual also wants a challenge too, and IMO Blighthaven was completely useless other than the fact its a great way to gear out alts with a lot of the gear off quests and the enjoyment of open world PvP over the bird, but that's about it. Also, stop putting it off and do something about the crappy elder gem system! 	
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says you...
 
fly free little cow, fly free...
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You missed one thing. The game already teaches players not to be social. As I already described it.
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