Report 390

Report #390
Skillset: Shadowbeat Skill: Nightshadeblues
 Org: Templars Status: Completed Jun 2010
Furies' Decision:
Will boost mana loss by 50% instead of 100%.
Problem: NightShadeBlues currently causes double mana drain on just about
everything that causes mana drain, from active drains by other people to passive
drains from the victim (clot, focus, insomnia, any skill that requires mana
usage). In an organisation where mana draining is so prominent and almost every
guild has access to a manakill, this song falls quickly into the "too good to be
true" category.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #1: Change the double mana drain to only hit on the
 harbinger skills that drain mana (minor sixth) and
 the victim's own mana consumption. Leaving all other
 player's skills as standard mana drains.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #2: In the off chance that removing the double mana drain
 from everyone cannot be done, then lower it to 33% or
 less.
Player Comments:
---[Talan on 5/16 @ 17:22 writes]:
Will there be any additional solution suggestions that change the ability while
maintaining some semblance of passive offensive support in groups?
---[Kalin on 5/16 @ 19:41 writes]:
No, and there doesn't need to be. Doubling the mana consumption of the person
hearing the song and the bard's mana drain is more than enough group support.
Especially since most, if not all guilds, have ways to cause the person to
consume their mana.
---[Talan on 5/17 @ 00:15 writes]:
Unlike other bard specs, Shadowbeat does not give passive afflictions, nor
effects like hunger, nor bursts of damage - things which the other bard specs do
get which work not only for their own offense, but in concert with other guilds
in their orgs. We get Nightshadeblues -- and you are proposing to eliminate this
effect in exchange for nothing. Sorry, no.
---[Kalin on 5/17 @ 01:30 writes]:
NightshadeBlues is -too good- in an org that has such mass access to both mana
draining and mana kills. Shadowbeat has a number of useful group support effects
(venomdrops, spiderlegs, bloodycaps, widowsmercy, slaughfest, shadowpulse,
wyrdsong...)
---[Raeri on 5/17 @ 09:12 writes]:
Shadowbeat seems built around bleeding, which would result in lots of clotting.
So that would be their 'thing' I guess, which works for their own offense, as
well as helping the other guilds with mana drain.
---[Incabulos on 5/17 @ 15:08 writes]:
NightshadeBlues is the backbone of Shadowbeat. I'm against this, if the only
argument is 'it's annoying in groups', since the same could be said of aeon
spam, pinleg, crucify, et al. Next time, try drinking love potion and eating
earwort, if it's a problem.
---[Ruiku on 5/17 @ 15:26 writes]:
Nightshadeblues can be increasingly overwhelming, coupled with a couple choice
skills it can be impossible to keep up with the mana loss, although I disagree
with deleting it and not providing it with a sufficient replacement. If we can
get some numbers on the mana loss tic it could help.
---[Lehki on 5/17 @ 16:13 writes]:
Ruiku, he's not asking for it to be deleted, and Nightshadeblues doesn't drain
any mana itself, it doubles ALL mana loss. I could see it adding some flat
amount, or increasing by some much smaller percent as possible alternatives, but
a 100% increase in all active mana drains really is too much, and needs to go
even if it doesn't get something else in return.
---[Ruiku on 5/17 @ 17:56 writes]:
The numbers on mana loss per bleeding tic.
---[Kalin on 5/17 @ 18:50 writes]:
The numbers are easy. Take whatever amount you use to clot and multiply that by
2. Multiply everything you do that costs mana by 2, then multiply everything
that every else does to you that causes mana loss by 2. Including double haegle
which works to mana drain *4. This isn't rocket science.
---[Xenthos on 5/18 @ 03:00 writes]:
Shadowbeat's bleeding isn't all that much if they aren't using the 3p CrowCaw,
Raeri (it's about 150 a tick with hemophilia every tick, can trigger the "Your
wounds open and begin to bleed" line to cure hemophilia and clot a couple of
times). Long as you don't let the bleeding build up it's pretty much never
going to be enough mana damage to get you in any trouble against a lone
Harbinger, especially as Harbingers do not have any skills that take advantage
of a person with low mana (bleeding only works if they have -no- mana, but
healing tomes and sparkleberry take care of that just fine).
---[Talan on 5/18 @ 03:11 writes]:
The abilities you list for shadowbeat's passive offensive contributions to group
combat -- two of those are only defensive and another two are parallelled in all
bard specs - you're left with reduced venom resistance, mild passive bleeding,
passive haemophilia, and if the bleed damage can build significantly before they
clot, chance to paralyse. That's all there is - and a flat nerf on its effect in
groups and nothing else is just not reasonable.
---[Fillin on 5/19 @ 21:42 writes]:
The double mana loss on everything is simply too much. If some bard had a double
ego loss song that worked with telepaths, I somehow think we'd all be in
agreeance that that's too much. Saying that solution 1 would destroy harbinger's
group support is very misleading. Not only do harbingers have all the things
Talan listed (plus the balance loss song, which she forgot), but every
Glomdoring guild except like, bonecrusher ebonguard, does significant either
passive or active bleeding, or both. Heck, even the special Glomdoring
brewmeister potion causes bleeding. Nightshadeblues would continue to -double-
the mana loss from clotting, as well as regular focus body and mind use, and the
harbinger's strongest attacks (crowcaw and minorsixth with manabarbs) would
remain just as potent as they currently are.
---[Talan on 5/25 @ 01:09 writes]:
I can agree that a confluence of certain passive effects makes this ability too
strong offensively in groups. I'd accept exchanging the double mana loss from
the attacks of allies (maintaining double mana loss for all bard attacks and all
personal exertion - clotting, focusing, etc.) for a 5-7% mana regen tic for the
bard and his allies.
---[Veyrzhul on 6/1 @ 11:16 writes]:
Crowcaw only costs 2 power. Someone who knows exactly could help out with the
amount of bleeding and the afflictions it does (something along the lines of 300
bleeding, stun and paralysis and/or epilepsy?). In any case, it shouldn't be
left out as part of this argument regarding Harbinger offense. It's actually the
first time I hear that Harbingers are so weak in direct combat that they need to
rely on a support role providing double mana drain for group mates.
---[Talan on 6/1 @ 13:05 writes]:
Report 390 crowcaw costs 3 power and does a short stun + 250ish bleeding, along
with 2 of the following at random (paralysis, stupidity, epilepsy, confusion).
That's not really the issue at hand here, however. Other specs provide more
passive effects in group combat that aid their allies offensively, whereas
shadowbeat is carried largely by nightshadeblues. If that capacity is going to
be removed, it must be replaced by something.
---[Kalin on 6/3 @ 18:56 writes]:
What other specs are you talking about? Please list the skills that other cpes
have that aid groups in comoparison to Shadowbeat, cause from what I see,
everything in Shadowbeat aids groups.
---[Talan on 6/4 @ 08:45 writes]:
Okay. Omitting Starhymn since that's in review. Compare a high stanza ability
that does nothing unless bleed damage exceeds 600, then gives paralysis
(shadowpulse) with an ability that gives passive afflictions which get
progressively worse coupled with an ability that prevents you from curing them
(wrathful canticle/blackdeath). Compare a mid stanza ability that gives mild
bleeding+haemophilia (bloodycaps) to one that always gives 1-2 afflictions,
which can include paralysis coupled with a song that lengthens focus time
(ancientcurse/bluemoon) or one which both gives passive afflictions and rapidly
causes hunger (sickeningplague). Compare a high stanza ability that in theory
(it is bugged at the moment and does nothing) does passive damage based on the
amount of bleeding (widowsmercy) to one that always does passive damage and
prevents enemies leaving the room (ancientfued). Shadowbeat comes out behind,
and this is just offensive things. (We also do not get the passive curing,
healing, faster eq, etc. that the others get.) The place where we come out ahead
is nightshadeblues, more predictable/reliable than naturerhythm, and its effects
more quickly able to be capitalized on than taintedlove. Remove this, and you
are leaving a very obvious disparity. I can accept that certain situations
render nightshadeblues 'too good' - though there are plenty of other instances
where a group focusing on a specific tactic with the right coordination can seem
similarly OP. I don't agree with removing the effect and replacing it with
nothing, I've made my suggestion, still waiting to hear any others.
---[Talan on 6/4 @ 09:04 writes]:
I have a mistake above - widowsmercy does damage equal to half the amount your
are bleeding (half and a little bit more combined with venomdrops) when you take
damage, it's not a passive effect at all. Apologies, I tend not to use it. This
seems like more of a one on one skill, and one that is only situationally useful
as well. Compared to something that reliably does passive damage with the other
effect I maintain that it is worse off from a group-support perspective.
---[Raeri on 6/4 @ 09:28 writes]:
You're comparing a single midstanza ability to two highstanza+lowstanza effects
there (and bluemoon slows focus recovery a bit, not the focusing speed itself) -
I'd compare BlueMoon to BarghestBlues, if anything - the herbbalance disruption
stanza. You're also neglecting to mention NightshadeBlues in your assessment -
you still get the doubled mana cost for clotting, you still get the doubled mana
cost of focusing (Is focus spirit affected by NightshadeBlues too?). You say a
crowcaw does 250ish bleeding with 2 of the above - consider how much mana it
takes to focus/clot that off? As for support, you still have passive shielding
of every ally on wyrden ground, in addition to the bleeding (helps with
warrior/monks) - and the mana drain via minorsixth + NSB is hardly something to
sneeze at when SD/BT both get a manakill. The report isn't going to remove
NightshadeBlues completely - it most likely won't affect the Harbinger at all -
It'll still help groups with the double mana cost on most things. What it will
do is stop things like double-double haegl, double-double lash, etc.
---[Talan on 6/5 @ 06:33 writes]:
I compared a midstanza ability (bloodycaps) to another midstanza ability
(ancientcurse) that happens to work rather nicely with a low stanza ability that
you have. Shadowbeat is missing that degree of synergy and it's worth noting.
I'd compare barghestblues to lunamelody. What is "double-double lash," unless
you mean 2 people using lash in nightshadeblues? This report is asking that the
effect on direct mana attacks by anyone but the bard playing the song with
nightshadeblues, be deleted and replaced with nothing.
---[Fillin on 6/28 @ 19:32 writes]:
I'm fine with nightshadeblues giving mana regen instead of double mana loss for
allies.
---[Kalin on 6/28 @ 22:58 writes]:
Mana regen for allies works for me too as long as the regen is not so high as to
make them immune to mana kills themselves