Report 489

Report #489
Skillset: Skill: Monk-Kicks
 Org: Tahtetso Status: Completed Oct 2010
Furies' Decision:
See Announce 1683
Problem: Monks are currently capable of kicking out of form. This means a monk
can use either a guild specific kick or a normal kick outside of the form,
voiding the ka costs that would normally be associated with it with no penalty
other than the inability to use modifiers with the kick. This is especially
potent at low levels of momentum where the monk only has access to 250 - 350 ka
and is capable of saving 100 ka by using a basic kick outside of the form. This
allows the monk to act 1/3 or 1/4 ka higher than they really are suppose to have
access to and use the ka that would of been used in the kick to add things like
speed modifiers to the form, artificially increasing monk combat speed. This is
especially true with guild specific kicks like Tahtetso Starkick, which does
good damage and afflictions with no downside to using outside of form, saving
125 ka.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #1: Only allow monk leg actions within the limits of
 forms, IE Kick, Starkick, ect
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #2: Increase the balance time of kicks when used outside
 of form, and divorce the balance recovery of kicks
 from arm balance
Player Comments:
---[Viynain on 10/15 @ 21:13 writes]:
I've no problem with solution 1.
---[Sahmiam on 10/16 @ 00:07 writes]:
I prefer solution 2 over solution 1. Monks should have the ability to use kicks
out of form but suffer the drawbacks if they so choose to do so. I -definitely-
agree with the problem this report presents, however. I'd be in favour of
something a long the lines of a 33% balance penalty (average of 3 seconds
becomes 4 seconds for out-of-form kicks) and maybe even making regen cures
caused by kick require it to be in form.
---[Sahmiam on 10/18 @ 03:43 writes]:
On behalf of Janalon: The Nekotai wish to propose a third solution: disable
afflicitons on any out of form kick with an associated momentum loss penalty.
This should limit monks to mostly basic kata kicks and low-level affliction
kicks out of form.
---[Lorick on 10/18 @ 13:17 writes]:
Removing the afflictions from momentum kicks does not stop the free wounds and
non momentum kick afflictions. Ideally, I'd like to see all methods of
circumventing the ka system removed. This is one of them
---[Sahmiam on 10/19 @ 03:39 writes]:
I disagree with that. Monks should be able to use actions out of form, and after
reconsidering the report, I don't think the solutions will solve anything. Kicks
might be penalized, but then one just moves the kick in and the hand action out.
I think the better thing to do would be to fix the problem at its source: remove
regen affs from working out of form and address monk wounding and damage
separately. I wish you would have consulted the monk clan before submitting.
---[Nydekion on 10/20 @ 10:31 writes]:
Support for solution 1, as well, consider limiting hand actions in the same
manner as kicks in the solution, issue described in Sahmiam's above comment.
---[Janalon on 10/21 @ 02:08 writes]:
If the purpose of the report is to eradicate monks combining katas with
independent ka actions, then this report does not go far enough. Why focus on
kicks when (as Sahmiam identifies) we go could about putting kicks in form, and
placing armed combat as independent ka actions. Please disable monks from
combining katas and independent ka actions. However, if the Furies decide to
allow katas with out of form combos, then remove afflictions on both leg and
hand actions: 1) on all regen affs, 2) if there is any momentum drop, 3) the
weight is greater than 250 ka (i.e. outweight 0mo and 1mo forms). Of course
these criteria would not include Starkick, which Lorick identified as being
overpowered outside of form so there may still be a need to Envoy up individual
skills as well.
---[Raeri on 10/21 @ 07:36 writes]:
Would it be possible to just make it that if a kata form has been performed in
the last x seconds, prevent out-of-form KA actions from taking place?
---[Lorick on 10/23 @ 01:38 writes]:
After speaking with Janalon, I am honestly not against requiring all actions to
take place within a form. I sumitted kicks mostly because that was the major
source of abuse, but a flat standardization across all monk guilds in this
fashion would eliminate any problems that may arise from these methods. Any time
someone strikes out of form, they avoid paying ka which is the only limit on a
majority of monk actions. Now, most hand strikes no longer cause afflictions,
but they are free wounds essentially. Kicks were just the primary concern due to
afflictions, wounds, and the fact kicks recover balance along with arms.
---[Sahmiam on 10/23 @ 05:42 writes]:
I think Raeri's idea leads to the best solution. It can solve the problem of
having out-of-form actions avoid ka costs while still allowing for people to
fight out of form should they desire it. I would like to see a third solution in
which no out-of-form actions can be used after a form until the monk regains
full balance (maybe equilibrium too?). Thus using a form would prevent outside-
form actions until the monk would be able to perform another form. This should
apply to all ka actions.
---[Janalon on 10/23 @ 23:19 writes]:
I Agree with Raeri and Sahmiam. Keep out of form actions, but make it so that
out of form actions cannot be performed simultaneously with kata in form
attacks.
---[Nydekion on 10/24 @ 08:26 writes]:
The problem in this suggestion seeks to address usage of kicks at low momentum
levels, really, basically before a monk gets particularly far into a form to
begin with. Changing it so out-of-form actions can be used after a monk regains
full balance really just applies a bandaid solution without really addressing
the issue.
---[Sahmiam on 10/24 @ 23:01 writes]:
Nydekion, I fail to see your point. The solution gets to the very heart of the
issue. The problem is monks using forms AND out-of-form actions simultaneously
avoiding ka costs WHILE still enjoying the advantages of a form. If a monk wants
to waste balance to use an out-of-form action, then so be it. Forms are superior
to out-of-form actions in that they can be modified, contribute to momentum, and
require less balance time. Should the solution that Raeri, Janalon, and I
support go through, any monk that decides to use an out-of-form action is going
to be stuck with low or no momentum while doing considerably less in the way of
afflictions, damage, wounds, etc. It is utterly inefficient for a monk to
sacrifice balance for an out-of-form action when the monk could use a form.
---[Nydekion on 10/26 @ 10:07 writes]:
My point is simple. There's no sense in a convoluted solution if you're saying
that it is inefficient for a monk to use out-of-form actions if limited for X
seconds. You'd either end up making it be a mechanic that won't be used or
something that wouldn't address the problem at all by still allowing out-of-form
actions to circumvent the ka system. Hence, it would make the most sense to
simply make all actions require a form in the same way that warriors are unable
to deal afflictions or damage that circumvent the deepwounds system.
---[Janalon on 10/27 @ 00:42 writes]:
Simple solution: cannot initiate out-of-form, independent ka actions while off
balance due to a kata form. Cannot initiate a kata form while off balance for an
independent, out-of-form ka action. This goes for kicks as it does grapples and
arms. It's what we've been saying all along though perhaps in more convoluted
commentary.
---[Janalon on 10/27 @ 00:44 writes]:
Oh, and please keep options for both kata forms and ka actions.