146185-elitism-does-you-no-favours

== Content ==
			...just kick THEM then. thats what i hear people are doing against elitist, and its working from what i see.	
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Been an Elitist jerk in a dungeon will do you no favours except more then likely end up on peoples ignore list....
 
Sick of people saying kick that person or that person due to them been able to do double thier dps ( hello look at majority of peoples gear )
 
Yes I can understand wanting to replace ppl below ilvl 70 gear as that I would say is minimum  for a vet dungeon and can easily be attained through crafted gear/or the pvp tier 2 trick.
 
But when ppl with over 70 ilvl gear and runed arent pulling your elitist expectation of dps...you dont need to be jerks about it....we are trying our best and we are NOT in full raid gear with all our extra amp/ability skills yet like you...so if you feel the need to belittle people cause you think your been a smart "cupcake" in your fully decked out raid gear...think again.....
 
 	
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Find a good guild and play with friendly folks. There's no way to stop every angsty and immature player from queuing for dungeons and then dropping groups / players for silly reasons like this, however you can chose who you play with and run with friendly groups working together. 
 
you don't have to rando pug dungeons, you can make friends and run with them :3 	
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I have to agree with Nazryn here; I come from GW2 where your profession would even get you kicked (pre-expansion). Now, I'm not saying GW2 is the only game with elitism in it, but it's one I got familiar with, and what he/she said above is the best way to go about it. In my defense, I would prefer to run with a lowbie that has no clue how to do the dungeon, versus someone who has to have it this certain way or it's not right.
 
I like the ignoring, though; I never did that back in GW2, usually just brushed it off my shoulder and said '...jerk.' and moved on. Now I'll have to try that one out (although, have yet to step foot in a dungeon... teehee?)	
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Too many people are used to being able to abuse the anonymity of being part of a larger game. Something like WoW, SWTOR, OR GW2 where you can be a raging jerkface and no one will ever see you again in their LFG even if they don't block you. 
 
But Wildstar is a much smaller community. Sometimes you might have to kick a genuine troll from your group for raging or other rude/offensive behavior. But as long as they're up to par for the content, kicking someone just because they aren't meeting your elitist standards should be avoided. 
 
What we should be doing as a community is giving directions to these players. Tips on how to do better instead of boots from the run. Every person we train up to be a better tank, healer, or DPS is one less minute in the queue, or potentially one more person supporting the game with money.
 
Think past your own elitist expectations for a second. It's OK to kick people who are screwing up. Just remember to be polite about it and maybe tell them what they're doing wrong first. 
 
But kicking randoms just because they don't kill fast enough for your liking? Yeah, you're not only being a jerk, but you're hurting the game too.
 
Just some things to consider.
			
				
	Edited November 4, 2015 by Elite Seraph	
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Dps shouldn't really be something that people are raged at for. Generally if I see someone doing terrible damage I'll recommend they look at a guide or something as they may be completely unaware of the fact as they aren't running a dps meter.
 
Even if you are fully geared and super pro if you're pugging or mainly pugging any content you really have to expect that there will be people that simply aren't as into researching/ min/maxing their chars and are just casually playing (which will actually be a LARGE percentage of the population).	
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			I mean, in my mind I am elitist but I've never stooped to belittling my fellow players. The damage meter is doing that quite fine all on its own. The person with no raid experience, raid gear, and that isn't maxed out on amps/abilities knows full well they aren't competing with decked out counter parts. No need to really be bringing attention to it. I've never seen this in any instance, is it really that huge of an issue? Only problem that has really been prevalent is people trying to DPS tank, when they don't have the gear to try and be that cheeky. 	
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I agree that you shouldn't be mean to players who don't live up to whatever standard you have set.
 
On the other hand, I've wiped many many many times in vets purely to the fact that DPS can't put out enough damage to kill a boss before soft enrages or just to handle the fight period.
 
Don't be mean, but also don't expect random people to wipe over and over when the solution is to just play better.
 
And why I personally just don't Q for vets anymore.	
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Even if you are fully geared and super pro if you're pugging or mainly pugging any content you really have to expect that there will be people that simply aren't as into researching/ min/maxing their chars and are just casually playing (which will actually be a LARGE percentage of the population).
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Yes it is unfortunate that many newer players have to sometimes deal with people like that. It's unfortunate that it happens, especially because it dissuades people from asking questions thus perpetuating the issue. I highly encourage any veteran players to reconsider this attitude if they have it, as it will hurt everyone.
 
 
One of the few scenarios that I would kick someone though is if they are not listening. If they are trying and failing, that is one thing, but if they are blatantly not listening to the group then there is not really an option.
			
				
	Edited November 4, 2015 by Mental Surge	
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We veteran players dont know if the 4 other players know the dungeon or are new to it. I dont inspect everyone when we start because i dont see a reason to do it. someone with ilvl85 can do less damage and die all the time and the guy in ilvl65blues can be a good player. 
If people dont say that they are new and have questions how should we know that? so you just rush through the dungeon and try to get a fast silver medal and sometimes it works because the group is good enough and sometimes its not and you wipe.
If you are new you are expected to say something about it and not be silent. Thats why vets get mad (more like annoyed) and leave the group (at least thats why i leave, not because of gear difference). I dont want to play with people who are silent and then perform poorly. 
 
Another funny story... yesterday i was queueing with my warrior twink and had UPG popping up 8 times in a row and 5-6 times the group instadisbanded (it has not been the same players each time) and 2-3 times i started the vote and it went trough. noone complained in the chat.
There is been a consensus lately between vets and new players that everyone has to do their part in these dungeons since its a team effort to clear them and most of the time it works when pugging. sometimes it does not and those stories get carried to the forums....
 
So again. As a new player you are expected to say something if you dont know the boss. And if you have questions about a spec just whisper other players standing around in the capital if you dont want to look at forums (or you dont have a guild to ask anyone).
Dont complain that the system is too punishing because its not for the majority of the players who are playing and enjoying it.
 
All this kicking in dungeons came with f2p and suddenly "elitists" are the problem of it. its more likely new or returning players who are wonnabe "elitists".
			
				
	Edited November 4, 2015 by furoflo	
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This is why I've always either pugged in zone chat or global, or I've taken friends to vets.
 
I never queue lfg ever, it was bad in wow, it's bad here. Random people SUCK, the only reason I've learnt to deal with them in pvp is because I can virtually ignore them and still get the job done, that is not the case in the pve on wildstar.
 
My one experience of vets since f2p hit, queue for random vet, get in vet, get yelled at about having fully runed and upgraded pvp gear by someone in greens.
Ask fellow players if they know what to do and if anyone wants a brief explanation of the bosses before each boss encounter, met with stony silence...
Get to first boss in Stormtalon, tank pulls.... within a minute or so 2 dps are dead, the tank, the one dps (Thankyou mr spellslinger, if you're reading this I can't remember your name but you were a saint) and I finish the encounter... barely...
Tank and I get trashtalked by same guy who complains about my gear, tells me we can't play and we suck and that he's out of here, leaves instance... that's cool, tank requeues us
New dps, ask again if everyone knows the second boss in stormtalon (especially cus interrupts), again met with stony silence.... Casually just say "don't forget to interrupt ok? :)", get told to shut the f up by new dps... great :/
Start the boss... going ok... first transition... mr spellslinger dc's... I interrupt... Tank interrupts... dps don't... we die.
Spellslinger comes back, says sorry for DC... met with tirade of abuse by other DPS...
Tank says "ok lets try again, just interrupt this time ok? Are you ready Syl qt?" to which I reply I am and we start the encounter.
Both dps die in the first transition, unfortunately mr spellslinger doesn't have enough dps this time and we all die.
 
"You're all bad, this game f'in sucks, f you, wtf tank you're so bad".... Tank says "I don't need to deal with this, sorry" and leaves, group disbands.
 
And that's when I decided never to use LFG for vets in f2p wildstar :D	
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This is why I've always either pugged in zone chat or global, or I've taken friends to vets.
 
I never queue lfg ever, it was bad in wow, it's bad here. Random people SUCK, the only reason I've learnt to deal with them in pvp is because I can virtually ignore them and still get the job done, that is not the case in the pve on wildstar.
 
My one experience of vets since f2p hit, queue for random vet, get in vet, get yelled at about having fully runed and upgraded pvp gear by someone in greens.
Ask fellow players if they know what to do and if anyone wants a brief explanation of the bosses before each boss encounter, met with stony silence...
Get to first boss in Stormtalon, tank pulls.... within a minute or so 2 dps are dead, the tank, the one dps (Thankyou mr spellslinger, if you're reading this I can't remember your name but you were a saint) and I finish the encounter... barely...
Tank and I get trashtalked by same guy who complains about my gear, tells me we can't play and we suck and that he's out of here, leaves instance... that's cool, tank requeues us
New dps, ask again if everyone knows the second boss in stormtalon (especially cus interrupts), again met with stony silence.... Casually just say "don't forget to interrupt ok? :)", get told to shut the f up by new dps... great :/
Start the boss... going ok... first transition... mr spellslinger dc's... I interrupt... Tank interrupts... dps don't... we die.
Spellslinger comes back, says sorry for DC... met with tirade of abuse by other DPS...
Tank says "ok lets try again, just interrupt this time ok? Are you ready Syl qt?" to which I reply I am and we start the encounter.
Both dps die in the first transition, unfortunately mr spellslinger doesn't have enough dps this time and we all die.
 
"You're all bad, this game f'in sucks, f you, wtf tank you're so bad".... Tank says "I don't need to deal with this, sorry" and leaves, group disbands.
 
And that's when I decided never to use LFG for vets in f2p wildstar :D
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			Ill stop blaming cod and start blaming LoL, this game did too much bad to this generation. Kinds arrive whit the flame ready full of fustration and instead socialice just pick on someone for the party wipe and insult/kick him.	
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It's like I said in another thread:  WoW has both raised up the MMO genre, and simultaneously ruined it.   
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There's elitism in the game. It was from the start and it is still here after F2P. Doesn't have anything to do with levels, gear, runes or anything else ingame. It's the attitude among people. Until that change, Elitist meatheads will continue to be just that.
 
The Looking-For-Group tool is fine to use. You can PUG and meet really nice and friendly players in all ranges. Some with good gear and some with good experience or combinations of them. Looking for a good guild is not the answer to LFG problems. Even guilds can struggle. Some of the fastest and smoothest runs I've experienced have been with pugs. Lucky combination of people with good gear, knowledge and a strive to succeed fast and smooth. But as soon as someone joins the group with a crappy attitude, shit is starting to fly.
 
Something I've been missing when wanting to kick out a person is to Vote Kick him out, but still make sure the asshat got a Debuff, similar to the Deserter debuff. What Vote Kick does today is removing the person from the group but he's still able to re-queue like nothing happened, to continue to spit at people and cause a mess around him. I would like to see 2 Vote Kick options, where the second one actually give the abusive person a Deserter debuff.
 
 
Going back to LFG and new people. I've been talking to some of them and they all said the same thing. They do not say anything because of the risk of getting kicked from the group. Say something, and the journey might end there. Which comes from experience, after a chat. So instead of asking if someone is new, rather change it around and ask if someone would like some quick heads-up before the boss. It can make the whole difference. The latter is more encouraging, and it might make some of the silent to step forward. I've always seen the small investment save time and wipes.
Personally, I might be quiet myself or go with a "Saw a video once.." and see how it goes when someone asks about new people, but I will never kick someone because lack of gear or experience. They're in there to fix these "problems". But a bad attitude on the other hand.. Then I will not care who you are, where you're from or what starving kids you saved. You're out.	
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I've been as kind as I can since f2p hit to new players, and my experience in lfg was a sour experience, at least at max level.
 
ON THE OTHER HAND! I played a protogames academy on a new alt not so long ago, and the new players there were lovely, asked great questions, didn't mind wiping and learnt quickly. I kept one on my friendslist and have been helping them out once in a while with anything they're having trouble with, recommended a nice guild that would suit them and chat to them most days.
 
So LFG isn't all that bad ALL the time, it's just this horrible attitude some people have. That me being friendly somehow offends them, or I have an ulterior motive for it, or that me being friendly and asking if everyone knows tactics is me being elitist. I would never yell at someone for wiping on a boss or being new, I just want everyone to enjoy themselves, it makes me sad... I remember how much you had to rely on other players in "the good ol days" of mmo's, all the bad eggs and rude people would end up getting shunned and a bad rep, now it just doesn't matter anymore.	
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			CoD, LoL or any other PvP game. It's the "Player vs Player" aspect within games that usually trigger hostility. There's also a generation growing up which has had games as a babysitter. Lack of human interaction and understanding, caring for others, etc. Combine that with being spoon fed up to and in their teens, used to get all they point at and not work for anything -  you got a smashing cocktail of success..  -_-	
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I've been as kind as I can since f2p hit to new players, and my experience in lfg was a sour experience, at least at max level.
 
ON THE OTHER HAND! I played a protogames academy on a new alt not so long ago, and the new players there were lovely, asked great questions, didn't mind wiping and learnt quickly. I kept one on my friendslist and have been helping them out once in a while with anything they're having trouble with, recommended a nice guild that would suit them and chat to them most days.
 
So LFG isn't all that bad ALL the time, it's just this horrible attitude some people have. That me being friendly somehow offends them, or I have an ulterior motive for it, or that me being friendly and asking if everyone knows tactics is me being elitist. I would never yell at someone for wiping on a boss or being new, I just want everyone to enjoy themselves, it makes me sad... I remember how much you had to rely on other players in "the good ol days" of mmo's, all the bad eggs and rude people would end up getting shunned and a bad rep, now it just doesn't matter anymore.
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			Elitism...PvE...Dungeons... 	
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and I suppose some don't even feel obligated to do anything helpful.
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why should we? dont get me wrong if they ask in chat or whisper me ingame i always reply and be helpful. i like when they ask question because then they show me that they want to improve their gameplay which means i will have more fun playing with them in the future or we become friends and queue up together in future...
but why should we engage everyone for every boss and "babysit" their progress
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Find a good guild and play with friendly folks. There's no way to stop every angsty and immature player from queuing for dungeons and then dropping groups / players for silly reasons like this, however you can chose who you play with and run with friendly groups working together. 
 
you don't have to rando pug dungeons, you can make friends and run with them :3 
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			If people aren't Tanking/Healing/DPSing right and is causing the group to wipe multiple times, damn right i'm going to say something instead of wishing for the better.	
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On the same token, if a player in the group says "hey man, you're behind/struggling a bit, maybe try this, that, or the other?", don't get defensive and rage at them for trying to be helpful.  I've seen that too, and then seen the person go and cry about "elitist jerks".
 
"Why should we?"  "Well, why shouldn't we?"
 
I'll say why I don't anymore:  Getting ignored when pleasantly offering advice, or getting raged at when pleasantly offering advice.  Get that happen to you enough times, we pleasant helpful people turn into cynical standoffish people that barely even chime in when a question is asked.
			
				
	Edited November 4, 2015 by beattlebilly	
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In my mind this all is obvious. So Why should we? Well, why should we not?
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			How much is this happening (people with appropriate gear and runes getting kicked)? It makes no sense to me why someone would do this. If you are in raid gear, you don't really care how much someone else is doing as you can carry the group. If you are missing DPS checks, then it's not really an "elitist" as much as it is someone trying to beat the instance with appropriate gear.	
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No, it's not about being friendly and asking. It's not allowing others because of a higher standard that you personally set. Looking down on people, or not looking at people which are on your level. A belief that you're better, smart, got a certain ancestry, etcetera. That you matter more. Continue to be friendly and ask. It's a good investment.
 
 
Also, new people are usually the ones that do not mind wiping. Mainly for 2 reasons.
1. It's all new. They want to see more and learn it.
2. Repairs are not as costly. 
 
Veteran players might give it a few chances and then leave, because of the higher repair bills. It's not really helping, and I suppose some don't even feel obligated to do anything helpful.
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Well, I actually pretty much quit most groups where people are rude and abusive. I really don't need that in my life.
 
I feel bad for others who feel like it's worth it to stick it out and want to finish the instance, but I just don't feel I should have to endure a rude person in an activity I'm doing for fun.	
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You talk about elitists as people who are spoon-fed and then proceed to telling us that we should spoon feed people instead of them doing the extra effort. I mean why don't they help us? It's not up to us to go to them. It's up to them to come to us. They need to help us help them.
If they are not willing to learn and expect other people to reach out to them. How do you think they will learn? This is exactly what what being spoon fed means. If we help them now, what do you think they will do later? They will only expect to be carried in raids.
You may call me an *cupcake*, but I learned that giving money directly to homeless people doesn't help them. Giving money to homeless charities and shelters helps them.
Another example... Found a wounded wild baby animal? Taking care of them and feeding them and you just thaught them how to not survive by themselves. Hand them over to professional who know how to handle wild animals instead.
 
It's because people like you defend lazy people in your crusade against "elitism" that we end up with so many threads like this in the first place.
My guess is that the OP isn't very good and instead of taking the time to ponder on why he was kicked and how he could avoid the same situation to happen again, he ran to the forums and cried for attention like a spoon fed player would do.
 
TL; DR: @OP - Stop crying and start learning.
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Yes - the solution is joining a good guild.  Many guilds (us included) are glad to help new people learn dungeons, help you with your spec, your runes, your rotation, etc and teach people that are willing to learn.
 
For me, I have no trouble helping people who are willing to learn and improve.
 
Showing up in a vet dungeon with iLv 60-70 gear, no runes, a bad LAS, not interrupting in standing in bad is not even trying.  Please.
 
What i'm hearing is not that people are necessarily elitists, but that players are like "please carry our scrub asses through dungeons, stay patient, don't leave, and in two hours later when you have 2p in repair bills and and we finish a non-medal run, never see us again.  K Thanks Bye."
 
It's not that i don't want to be helpful, is that i don't have time for this nonsense.  If you want to learn, find a guild that wants to help you.  MOST GUILDS WANT TO HELP.
 
If you can't find a half-decent guild to join, are you even trying???  Why help people that don't try???  Join the guild and show me an effort and I'll be more than glad to help anyone.	
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Showing up in a vet dungeon with iLv 60-70 gear
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			Naw man, gotta kick that ilvl 55 noob in SSM. Can't have that crap.	
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There's elitism in the game. It was from the start and it is still here after F2P. Doesn't have anything to do with levels, gear, runes or anything else ingame. It's the attitude among people. Until that change, Elitist meatheads will continue to be just that.
 
The Looking-For-Group tool is fine to use. You can PUG and meet really nice and friendly players in all ranges. Some with good gear and some with good experience or combinations of them. Looking for a good guild is not the answer to LFG problems. Even guilds can struggle. Some of the fastest and smoothest runs I've experienced have been with pugs. Lucky combination of people with good gear, knowledge and a strive to succeed fast and smooth. But as soon as someone joins the group with a crappy attitude, shit is starting to fly.
 
Something I've been missing when wanting to kick out a person is to Vote Kick him out, but still make sure the asshat got a Debuff, similar to the Deserter debuff. What Vote Kick does today is removing the person from the group but he's still able to re-queue like nothing happened, to continue to spit at people and cause a mess around him. I would like to see 2 Vote Kick options, where the second one actually give the abusive person a Deserter debuff.
 
 
Going back to LFG and new people. I've been talking to some of them and they all said the same thing. They do not say anything because of the risk of getting kicked from the group. Say something, and the journey might end there. Which comes from experience, after a chat. So instead of asking if someone is new, rather change it around and ask if someone would like some quick heads-up before the boss. It can make the whole difference. The latter is more encouraging, and it might make some of the silent to step forward. I've always seen the small investment save time and wipes.
Personally, I might be quiet myself or go with a "Saw a video once.." and see how it goes when someone asks about new people, but I will never kick someone because lack of gear or experience. They're in there to fix these "problems". But a bad attitude on the other hand.. Then I will not care who you are, where you're from or what starving kids you saved. You're out.
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Build a man a fire, keep him warm for but a night.
 
Set a man on fire, keep him warm for the rest of his life.
 
Something like that? :p
 
Meh, I ask if people are new, and I give them pointers on the fights. I don't play the game for them. I've seen lots of people, when given the basics, take it and run with it and become great players. But the biggest thing I can offer is patience. I have loads of it (as long as you aren't being a jerk) and am willing to give people lots of chance to figure things out. I think that's the best thing you can do to help- not make them fearful that a mistake is going to end in a quick /disband.	
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Something I've been missing when wanting to kick out a person is to Vote Kick him out, but still make sure the asshat got a Debuff, similar to the Deserter debuff. What Vote Kick does today is removing the person from the group but he's still able to re-queue like nothing happened, to continue to spit at people and cause a mess around him. I would like to see 2 Vote Kick options, where the second one actually give the abusive person a Deserter debuff.
 
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And how would the game be able to tell if you are legitimately kicking an abusive person?  I don't like the idea of giving a vote-kicked person a debuff, I've been kicked from LFG content because I happened to be the same class and role as one of the other players in the partial group I got put in with, and they didn't want "competition" for loot.
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			So someone that doesn't walk people through content is elitism?  That's what i've read on some of these posts.  It is when they tell the player to get better.  But I've seen some ask and no replies than when they mess up, you go, wth...."oh, i haven't done this boss".  Or you get the ones that offer advice such as, hey, rune your gear, focus on this and that but when you dont do that, you make it harder on other people".  That person that said that is an elitist apparently.  I disagree with that but than again, I'm an elitist.  I'm not going to players to help.  But they come to me, i'll offer advice, but I'm not goign to go indepth explanations all the time because well, sometimes I have other stuff I'm doing.	
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			Every mmo ever.  This isnt going to go away.  Best to ignore them and move on.	
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So someone that doesn't walk people through content is elitism?  That's what i've read on some of these posts.  It is when they tell the player to get better.  But I've seen some ask and no replies than when they mess up, you go, wth...."oh, i haven't done this boss".  Or you get the ones that offer advice such as, hey, rune your gear, focus on this and that but when you dont do that, you make it harder on other people".  That person that said that is an elitist apparently.  I disagree with that but than again, I'm an elitist.  I'm not going to players to help.  But they come to me, i'll offer advice, but I'm not goign to go indepth explanations all the time because well, sometimes I have other stuff I'm doing.
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This is a double edged weapon you are describing here. It is true, that arrogant overgeared CUPCAKEs can be annoying, on the other hand same goes about arrogant noobs. Especially in the game like wildstar, people should listen to those who are more familiar with the tactics of current dungeon and actaully listens and do what they are told, unless they really wish to wipe.
 
Being ignorant fool with no dps, ignoring boss mechanics is no better from being that guy who wants to kick you out for doing so.	
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It can't be that common that they just get kicked for no reason. The only times I have seen people kicked (and I pug everyday, multiple times) is when they die repeatedly and clearly aren't learning.
 
Also, the advice thing goes both ways...they have to be willing to receive it and some people aren't. Some will rage at you for offering advice. So, with that in mind I can understand people not being exactly excited to give advice out freely to people severely underperforming.	
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All you really need to do is ask a few simple questions and give a few simple answers: 
 
"Do you know how this boss works?"  If anyone answers no, just quick the quick and dirty version. 
 
If you wipe, ask: "Ok, what did we do wrong? Did we miss an interrupt?  Does anyone not understand what we're supposed to do here?"  followed by a very simple breakdown of what to do.    
 
If you're running DPS meters and someone is just plain horrible, offer some tips.  If they don't pick up significantly after another try, then vote-kick and explain why politely.  "Sorry, this boss requires more DPS than you can do. Check a guide on how to increase your damage and try again later."      
 
Because just yelling at someone "WTF NOOOB! L2P!!"  and kicking them doesn't help anything. You don't need to spend hours educating them on the right way to play, but it doesn't take much effort to drop a little advice that might make the difference between a successful run and sitting in the queue picking your nose and being angry.  
 
 
 
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Guess I'm not the only one being kicked without reason.
 
4 times I've been kicked for no good reason; 1 time my mother distracted me at a bad time,1 time today during a dunegon when I clearly said I need a second, and three at the shade eve event. No one said anything except called me out of my name (and that was at the shade event).
 
I'm done with group events; I just have to quest my ass off until I reach cap level. Besides, I can cruise around on my mounts and take in the senery.
 
Oh and a great job of making your guilds look bad when you boot people without reason.
 
Oh and for those who offered to help others but had to endure mess for doing so from them and possibly others.....I'm sorry you had to go through that.
			
				
	Edited November 5, 2015 by Scar Red	
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			So wait are you saying its my job to baby every person if i run a PUG? So they didn't watch a video while in queue, They didn't read a guide, They didn't run it with their guild and now they refuse to tell us that they are new? I might be an elitist but i'm not the one wasting 4 other peoples time because you want to be babied.If you are in a PUG with me and you don't know the fight and you sit there and don't say a word and this leads to a wipe then i'm out. People need to grow the *cupcake* up and take responsibility for them selves instead of coming on the forums and crying like a moron. 	
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I'm a fast learner, so I've had no problems just telling people I haven't done the content before. Usually the guys and gals who have been at it awhile are happy to explain a fight to me and then I'm good to go and still maintain a gold medal on first runs. Of course I was once a hardcore raider in past games so I'm probably not the best statistic.
 
From what I can tell, everyone has been super friendly when someone in the party says it's their first time. No matter what you believe is right or wrong, only good can come from announcing it! I actually get excited when someone says they are new and I go out of my way to help them out.
 
The only issues I've seen is when someone is new and doesn't say anything even when asked, or that random one out of fourty that acts like a man child when newbies aren't doing DS raid level damage in an adventure.
 
 
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Guess I'm not the only one being kicked without reason.
 
4 times I've been kicked for no good reason; 1 time my mother distracted me at a bad time,1 time today during a dunegon when I clearly said I need a second, and three at the shade eve event. No one said anything except called me out of my name (and that was at the shade event).
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There's a fine line between being respectful and just being an ass......and with the afk thing.....it depends on how long.....a few minutes is fine but 1/2 an hour is a bit much.
 
Been in groups where we went on without them or we waited. It also depends on the people of course.
 
I asked for a few seconds today....wasn't well received where as they did the same and we all respected it....
			
				
	Edited November 5, 2015 by Scar Red	
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There's a fine line between being respectful and just being an ass......and with the afk thing.....it depends on how long.....a few minutes is fine but 1/2 an hour is a bit much.
 
I asked for a few seconds today....wasn't well received where as they did the same and we all respected it....
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All you really need to do is ask a few simple questions and give a few simple answers: 
 
"Do you know how this boss works?"  If anyone answers no, just quick the quick and dirty version. 
 
If you wipe, ask: "Ok, what did we do wrong? Did we miss an interrupt?  Does anyone not understand what we're supposed to do here?"  followed by a very simple breakdown of what to do.    
 
If you're running DPS meters and someone is just plain horrible, offer some tips.  If they don't pick up significantly after another try, then vote-kick and explain why politely.  "Sorry, this boss requires more DPS than you can do. Check a guide on how to increase your damage and try again later."      
 
Because just yelling at someone "WTF NOOOB! L2P!!"  and kicking them doesn't help anything. You don't need to spend hours educating them on the right way to play, but it doesn't take much effort to drop a little advice that might make the difference between a successful run and sitting in the queue picking your nose and being angry.  
 
 
 
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thats exactly the point...
the veteran player is expected to use his time to explain every encounter or create a good atmosphere by asking them if they know what to do or w/e?
guys... double standards much? The noob has to invest to get better... on its own...with his time...Its just lazy and imo rude to not prepare if you know that WS dungeons are hard.
Its the same principle in real life you have to learn a profession and get good at it. Unless your Daddy owns a company or you get lucky you have to work on your success not wait for others to just offer it to you.
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From what I can tell, you've yet to meet an actual good player.
 
The mark of a bad player, recently drawing out their heads out of the mud, is that they'll start treating less skilled people like crap, and they'll think their shit doesn't stink even though they are barely passable. So the first thing they'll do is inspect everyone and pass judgment as if they knew better(they don't).
 
Now, consider that all the runs are timed, the better time, the better the reward. Why they made timed dungeons the norm, it's beyond me.
 
Also, remember that everyone has a certain amount of patience, and it can run out easily when you try to run a dungeon and for the Nth time in the night you are grouped with the best excuses for pre-birth abortion.
 
And lastly, ignore them. Do your thing and aside from any sort of tactical talk don't even bother looking at their names. Because, all you'll do is sour your experience. Truth be told, if they are not in my guild or friends list, I don't even try to read their names, and only look at class colors(sad consequence of lfd systems).	
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I see a lot of these threads, but there are a few things I think people that write them should think about. Allow me to play devils advocate if you will:
 
- First off, no one owes you anything. Just because there are well geared experienced people in the game, they are under no obligation to teach you, or waste their time hand holding you through content. If you think otherwise, you should probably think about playing another type of game, because MMOs might not be your cup o' tea. Just my personal opinion.
 
-  All these "elitist jerks" have already done the work. They've logged the hours, put in the time to learn the runs and sometimes simply want to do the content they've already done a million times as quickly and efficiently as possible. Does this fact give them a right to be overly rude to you? Of course not, but at the same time, they have just as much right to use the kick function to kick someone that is ruining THEIR enjoyment, just as much as anyone else does. If you don't like that fact, that is YOUR problem and sitting on the forums whining about it, only continues to waste YOUR time, no one else's. Think about that for a moment.
 
- As others have mentioned, repairs are very costly. It is one thing to take some time out of your day to teach new people how to run content, it's entirely another thing to expect people to waste their time AND money to continually wipe because people are unable to do said content. This isn't fun for anyone.
 
- Lastly, the game is about having fun. If you don't like the way someone is acting, kick them. If they don't like you (for any reason), they are free to kick you as well. The street goes both ways. Making rants in /lfg or on the forums is simply a display of impotent rage. Why waste your time whining about these facts when the other person isn't? they are busy playing the game, so why aren't you?
 
Now, with all that being said, I agree people should attempt to refrain from being overly rude to one another, but as I've said already, no one owes anyone anything. If someone wishes to take time out of their day to teach you, you should be grateful that they did so, and simply not come to expect it from everyone.
 
Cheers.	
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I see a lot of these threads, but there are a few things I think people that write them should think about. Allow me to play devils advocate if you will:
 
-  All these "elitist jerks" have already done the work. They've logged the hours, put in the time to learn the runs and sometimes simply want to do the content they've already done a million times as quickly and efficiently as possible. Does this fact give them a right to be overly rude to you? Of course not, but at the same time, they have just as much right to use the kick function to kick someone that is ruining THEIR enjoyment, just as much as anyone else does. If you don't like that fact, that is YOUR problem and sitting on the forums whining about it, only continues to waste YOUR time, no one else's. Think about that for a moment.
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the vote kick is not enabled the first 10 minutes but the vote disband is so if you dont like the general setup of the group (for whatever reason) your only option is to vote disband or leave.
so if someone demands a kick and is just standing there for 10minutes (because he is an A-hole) and therefore reducing your chance to get silver/gold medal + increasing the run time this system has to be adjusted as well.	
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What ejestor said.  Someone in DS gear is going to be spending alot of plat on repairs.  I think my fully broken gear is over 2p to repair.  Someone in GA is 1.5p I believe.  Thats alot of plat, and understand when you pug vet dungeons, your going to have to accept repairs, but I'm not wiping 10x's on a full pug group on a boss that isn't to hard.  Now hard boss is a different story, but wipe 2x's on the first boss in stl, sets precedence on how the run will go and i'll most likely leave.  Unless your cool.  I actually had a new player say, hey, i'm new, I apologize, let me give you guys some plat for repairs, just want to down this instance.  Was him and his gf.  So, completed stl, wiped multiple times, but completed it, and they now knew the fights and tricks to the runs.  He messaged me the next day saying thanks and he got a silver on a run.  Stuff like that will bring me back to run.  Than another time you get the ones in dungeon/ga gear and yelling at people for being bad and run almost failed but eventually kicked the guy.  Yeah, the other players were way undergeared, but no need to be a douche.  In my experience, the majority of community is descent, I don't know with the new f2p crowd because haven't run a dungeon since f2p dropped.
 
And btw, for some that are reading these and people mentioning DS level runs and don't know what that means.  It's someone in the top raid gear and can do 15-20k dps in an instance compared to someone in adventure gear doing 3k-4k dps.  So that one DS level can basically clear the instance by themself, especially with a healer.  Why you will see DS DPS tanks from engineers/stalkers/warriors.    	
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The mark of a bad player, recently drawing out their heads out of the mud, is that they'll start treating less skilled people like crap, and they'll think their shit doesn't stink even though they are barely passable. So the first thing they'll do is inspect everyone and pass judgment as if they knew better(they don't).
 
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 It's someone in the top raid gear and can do 15-20k dps in an instance compared to someone in adventure gear doing 3k-4k dps.  So that one DS level can basically clear the instance by themself, especially with a healer.  Why you will see DS DPS tanks from engineers/stalkers/warriors.    
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Helped new guildies out in skullcano - glad to help because new guildies are awesome and i like them.
 
They were in TS so we could go over fights and explain them to her!  this is great.
 
But still 1p in repair, i don't mind because I think she's a good player and will learn and improve nad get good one day.  Plus she has a good attidue!  I'd do that all day.
 
The situation that people are complaining about it's like... they want a babysitter or something.  If you ask for help, you'll get it but if you don't ask for help and act like an idiot, all you do is *cupcake* people off.	
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Unless your name is orrestes and you only do 10k dps cause bad xD
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Better to do 10k dps than be dead due to the #1 excuse from austrialia.......my lag got me killed.  Or my favorite so far, my cat is drowning.
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I personally wont kick people from runs unless they afk or are being douches.  But i'm not going to ask every time, have you done this boss?  I'm going to assume you hvae by queing up, and it's up to the player to say, hey never done this what do i need to do.
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			Love it when elitists make fun of each other. About cats. :D	
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if you are new, and do not want to watch vids or read guides before going into a dungeon (or whatever) or you are a vet at it and want speed runs or only want vets, you should form your own groups.
 
pug is just that, pick up group. you get what you get, deal with it.	
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Please correct me if I'm wrong but can you gather a group for a dunegon and then que the entire group for that specific dunegon?
 
If so, depending on what server and side you're on, this maybe an easier opition as you can probably get people to join who are also new and what not instead
of being paired with randoms who are possibly irrable and just don't have the patience. One can only hope.	
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Please correct me if I'm wrong but can you gather a group for a dunegon and then que the entire group for that specific dunegon?
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if you are new, and do not want to watch vids or read guides before going into a dungeon (or whatever) or you are a vet at it and want speed runs or only want vets, you should form your own groups.
 
pug is just that, pick up group. you get what you get, deal with it.
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My thoughts.....
 
I have basically turned cynical after offering to help people then being called an elitist for pointing out what they were doing wrong.  If anyone remembers swtor's group finder (I left shortly after the Hutt Cartel expansion), that was my main reason for my turning (and those who played would know why).  If they didn't take my advice and/or demanded I guard (as most of the time I tanked in gf to just get dailies done) the healer when healers have no express reason for being guarded in the first place, unless you are just a bad tank.  It was always a fun run when you hear the healer say "You're the best <insert class here> tank I have had in a while."  or I used to get the ones in which the dps thinks THEY are the tank and tries to offtank during a dungeon :rolleyes: .  I think as a cynical tank, you guys know what happens after it happens too many times (after I whisper the healer.....for reasons.... :) ).  I also had my times as a cynical healer as well. 
 
I could go on and on but my main point is that the people I usually meet are just mad at the world and gosh be darned if I am going to sit there and take it.  So long story short, if you are opening to listening and improving your gameplay on mechanics after I went out of my way to explain it to you (IN DETAIL) then I can run with you all day.  The moment you stray from that, you start grinding at my sanity. 
 
All this talk about wording your replies carefully is just nonsense, maybe I come from a different world then the rest of you but I don't expect to be hand held through most if not any content I play.  Plus I'd rather someone give it to me straight rather than beat around the bush.
 
Sorry if this comes off as abrasive (as it's not meant to be) but it's just my thoughts on the matter.
 
My basic point is this.  Come in willing to learn and adapt, not blame it on others after you have been made aware of mechanics/rotations or whatnot.	
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I'm getting slightly frustrated with pugging - but it's my own fault I guess.
 
I'm more than happy to help new players finish things up, explain fights, chat w/ guildies on TS etc.  Heck, I was with a pug and wiped on mordechai for 2 hours before we finally finished. 
 
But when people q up, die to just about every single thing they can, have super super super low ilvl - it just bothers me.  If you don't know to run the red circle on top of guys - fine.  Don't know how to avoid ticks in KV? Fine.  when players just get hit by clear telegraphs, never interrupt, and pull abysmal DPS - they need to have a sit down on if they should Q or not.  Again, I'm happy to run with those players and show them the ropes, but when you get 4 of them while just trying to get a quick daily or contract done, it's a pain.
 
Guess that's where LFM and circles come from.
 
Oh - and anyone saying "never ask for help" just stop.  People don't instantly kick you if you just say "I don't know what to do here".  I did UPG last night.  Place always instant disbands, and I have never tanked it.  Said that, saw like, 4 new rooms I didn't even know existed, and the group was happy to say "run here, tank here, int this".
 
Was an easy run because I spoke up and knew I would mess up if I didn't get a run down, instead of trying to pretend like I know whats happening.
 
to the newbies - just ask.  You might get kicked, but there's a greater chance people will help (or they won't say anything but they won't be mad when you die - they know you're new).
 
I guess my point in this drivel of thoughts is this - Ask questions if you need help, weather in Advice or the instance group, make some friends, get into a guild that will help lead you through things, and understand some people just DON'T want to deal with silent failure.	
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I'm getting slightly frustrated with pugging - but it's my own fault I guess.
 
I'm more than happy to help new players finish things up, explain fights, chat w/ guildies on TS etc.  Heck, I was with a pug and wiped on mordechai for 2 hours before we finally finished. 
 
But when people q up, die to just about every single thing they can, have super super super low ilvl - it just bothers me.  If you don't know to run the red circle on top of guys - fine.  Don't know how to avoid ticks in KV? Fine.  when players just get hit by clear telegraphs, never interrupt, and pull abysmal DPS - they need to have a sit down on if they should Q or not.  Again, I'm happy to run with those players and show them the ropes, but when you get 4 of them while just trying to get a quick daily or contract done, it's a pain.
 
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I sometimes groupfinder PUG, sometimes run preformed PUGs, and if I want to gear someone up or just do efficient runs or try for gold, I play with guildies.
 
If you are not ready to accept the fact that your group can have ANY sort of people, don't use the group finder.
 
Maybe I'm not in the majority but actually the most recent MMO I seriously played before was vanilla WoW. Back then the only way to PUG was to make a group beforehand. I don't understand why joining a community (circle, guild) is considered too much effort and shouldn't be offered as a solution. MMOs are ALL about interacting with other people and their avatars.
 
When you premake a PUG, you feel a lot better about helping someone out or sticking it thru countless wipes because you feel a closer connection to that person, atleast for me. Because he's part of the same community (be it server, circle, guild) you feel that there's a higher chance that either you will play with him again or that he will be friendly to others in the same community, thus making it nicer for everyone.
 
Also from my experience, if someone is willing to find a group and maybe talk to people for even saying "inv", you know they're also probably going to communicate atleast on some level during the run. Obviously it isn't needed if everything goes well anyways. 
 
I am personally very patient with people in games and only PUG when I'm in the mood for it and am sure to have enough time evem with a slower group, to some limits ofc.
 
I don't mind people making mistakes if there's atleast some signs of progress. Or the willingness to learn. But sometimes you get people who aren't doing well at all, don't write anything at all and don't seem to learn either. In those cases depending on the group I either leave, vote kick or vote disband. If someone tells me "sorry I'm new" I will never kick them even if they do horrible. But if the group just keeps on failing and there's no confirmation that they're atleast trying to do it right.. It's not worth it for me.	
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