Episode 004 - American History X-Men

==Episode Description==
In which Rachel finally gets to say “WHAT?!,” we examine three variations on the Silver Age, Twin Peaks is reality TV, we can’t believe you hired Hitler, Angel is not Batman, even the most sympathetic Xavier is still pretty creepy, Cyclops has a good day, Marvel Girl is not going to throw a dinosaur for you, Iceman is the Troy Barnes of the X-Men, and we say a fond farewell to the Silver Age.
== Cold Open ==
Angel's current (May 2014) situation, regarding neurotoxic flechettes, alleged divinity, and magic blood.
==X-Plained:==
*The X-Axis
*X-Men: Children of the Atom
*Hard-sell noir
*How to party like it’s sometime between 1986 and 1991, as filtered through 1999
*The perils of over-referencing
*Why Marvel is in the Tommy Westphall Universe
*The worst guidance counselor ever
*Villain speeches
*X-Men: First Class (but not that one)
*Fun, and several places to find it
*Angst-free X-Men
*Gender politics of superheroism
*X-Men: Season One
*Teenagers
*The solution to the Silver-Age-Jean Grey problem
*Why Iceman matters
*The Silver Age cram book
== Listener Questions ==
* Do you think the X-Men work better when they're part of the larger Marvel Universe, or do they work better if you kinda isolate them? I ask, since I've always found it weird that the citizens of the Marvel Universe can fear and hate mutants, but say love Spider-Man, when they have no idea if he could also be a Mutant.
* Iceman. Actual player or unacknowledged mascot?
* How much of the silver age needs revisiting? How much has to happen before it's time for the Giant-Size era?
== Transcript ==
[Editor’s Note: Rachel now goes by the name of Jay and uses male or neutral pronouns. This episode was recorded before Jay’s transition. At Jay’s request, we are using the name and pronouns they used at the time when this episode was recorded to keep the integrity of the transcript.]
Transcribed by: Michael; Edited by: Rebekah
'''
(00:00)
Miles: Hey Rachel, why's the dining room table covered in back issue?
Rachel: Oh, hey Miles. I was just trying to figure out what's up with Angel.
Miles: Uh Main Angel or Kid Angel? Or the one who has bug wings and spits acid?
Rachel: No no, Main Angel.
Miles: So he was getting taken over by Apocalypse, so Psylocke had to stab him in the brain with her psychic knife and basically destroyed his entire memory and personality. Now he thinks he's a real angel.
Rachel: Well, okay, so I'll buy that the tabula rasa base of Warren Worthington is both optimistic and self-important enough to actually assume he's an angel.
Miles: True.
Rachel: But he still is Archangel, right? I mean he can shoot metal blades from his wings.
Miles: Of course..
Rachel: Well, shouldn't he be blue then? I mean Apocalypse turned him blue at the same time he installed the metal wings. I remember this.
Miles: [crosstalk] Oh he, h-he turned back when his healing powers activated.
Rachel: And the metal wings that shoot neurotoxin laced blades still don't shake his belief that he's a real angel? I mean that's.. pretty non-angelic.
Miles: Well they look feathery most of the time even if it's just techno-organic, and there's his blood!
Rachel: His blood.
Miles: Oh yeah. It can heal people. And y'know. Kill demons.
Rachel: WHAT?!
[Intro: Excerpt of X-Men: The Animated Series theme song]
'''
(01:03)
Rachel: I'm Rachel Edidin.
Miles: And I'm Miles Stokes, back from C2E2.
Rachel: And we are here to X-Plain the X-Men.
Miles: Because it's about time someone did.
Rachel: Welcome to the fourth episode of "Rachel and Miles X-Plain the X-Men" where we walk you through the ins, outs, and retcons of our favorite superhero soap opera. This week we are going to be wrapping up our Silver Age coverage with a look at three alternate takes on that era, but first, we have an announcement!
Miles: So, after episode two, we decided..that "Magneto Made Some Valid Points" t-shirts needed to be a thing! So we commissioned designer Dylan Todd to make that dream a reality. You can now buy those—along with "Rachel and Miles X-Plain the X-Men" t-shirts and stickers—in our brand new store! And that's at rachelandmiles.redbubble.com [Editor's note: the Magneto shirt, and most merch, is now at https://www.teepublic.com/stores/xplainthexmen], or you can just click the store link at the top of our page.
Rachel: Now, in an ideal world this is eventually going to pay for things like hosting and the ridiculous volume of back-issues we're going to have to track down as we proceed. But, if we're going to be actually honest, it's mostly just a way for us to get more rad X-Men t-shirts, and, now you can too!
Miles: Soo, speaking of back-issues, uh, we've been doing the Silver Age for the first two episodes, last, uh, last week's animated series one notwithstanding. And this is going to be our last Silver Age episode.
Rachel: Uhm, now those of you familiar with the Silver Age, will be th- saying, "pffth- but you MISSED so much!" And there's actually a reason that we're skipping what we are. Basically there are two kinds of Silver Age stories. There are ones that are directly pertinent to upcoming stuff..and there are ones that are kind of throw-aways. And of the FIRST group, m- the vast, vast majority basically get re-covered in the next era of X-Men, when they come up. They're referred back to a lot, and with a lot of context.
Miles: Yeah, we actually - when we were starting the podcast - we went back and forth on whether to DO the Silver Age for that reason. We decided to go for it, 'cause there's- there's a lot of yellow-clad ridiculousness that we did want to talk about..but uh, it's sort of optional when you get down to it. 
Rachel: Aaand we're going to go back to the things that ARE important that we missed, as they come up as central to larger, later stories, so we'll be doing some flashbacks to the Silver Age, but for the most part we're going to be shelving it after this episode. 
Miles: So um- if you DO want to be a completist, and just check out every little thing that happens in Silver Age X-Men, there's a guy named Paul O'Brien, and he's got this old archival site uh- called "The X-Axis".
Rachel: Which is awesome.
Miles: It IS awesome, and it goes through every. single. issue. It tel- it sums up the plot a bit, it talks about y'know, what's 60's and ridiculous about it, uh, we'll post a link to that on our blog.
Rachel: And I mean, credit where due, in a lot of ways - we're both big fans of the site, we were reading it as it w-was coming out. And I think - at least for me - it's a lot of where..the idea and tone of, y'know, really just getting in and explaining where the X-Men came from. Highly recommend it if you like this podcast, you'll love his archives. 
Miles: Also, uh, mea culpa; we totally cheated and didn't read a couple issues and just looked at his summaries.
Rachel: Yeah, they're that good. 
Miles: [laughs]
'''
(03:38)
Miles: So okay. Um. We are going to talk, uhh, like we were saying before, about a few alternate takes on the Silver Age. 
Rachel: Now, a handful of you, - when- when you found out we were doing this, asked if we were gonna be covering The Marvels. And the answer is "no". Now, Marvels is fantastic; it's a series by Kurt Busiek, there have been, um, I think two mini-series, they are both WAY worth reading. Um, they're basically an alternate, man-on-the-street view of the Silver Age. They're fantastic.
Miles: However, they focus on the Silver Age in general. And, while that's really cool, uh, if we were trying to explain the Marvel Universe, this podcast would last until the sun burned itself out. We're just talking about X-Men—and there’s some X-Men stuff in there, but it's really not the focus. 
Rachel: Well, and there are th- also three.. either series or stand-alone graphic novel retellings of JUST Silver Age X-Men. Uh, we have a one hour recording slot, we try to keep this podcast to a length that you can listen to on a lunch break and ultimately, there's gonna be some stuff that falls into supplemental reading. Marvels is going to be one of those, but you should definitely track it down and read it.
Miles: Absolutely. So, I guess we might as well, uh, dive right in; what's the the first series we're going to talk about? 
Rachel: The first series we're gonna talk about—we're gonna go chronologically—is Children of the Atom. Children of the Atom was a six issue mini-series that came out in 1999, was written by Joe Casey. The first three issues were drawn by Steve Rude, and then there were different artists for the other three.
Miles: So, what Children of the Atom covers, is basically the stuff that happens before X-Men #1. It's about Xavier.. starting the school, it's about him meeting up with the various students who are going to be the five original X-Men, it's about a REALLY weird villain and and REALLY dark timeline that doesn't really jive with.. the main Marvel Universe, especially the Silver Age and we're gonna get to more of that.
Rachel: I mean it's basically "American History X-Men".
Miles: Uh—I love that—um, yeah it's- if you're familiar with The Dark Knight Returns, which I suspect most people listening to this podcast are, it feels a lot like that. It's that kind of like UBER dark, UBER gritty, uh kind of feel that, y'know, from what you've been hearing us talk about the Silver Age of X-Men, that's REALLY not what it was about. 
Rachel: I want to go back a step too, and um, point out that the stories you mentioned—it's before the X-Men's start—but it's a fairly direct rehash of a lot of the backstories that were back-ups in Silver Age issues. 
Miles: Uh right. So like we find out that, uhh—and we'll get to this a little more later—but that Cyclops was working for a thief who took him in after he was in the orphanage, named Jack of Diamonds, and just little weird things like that, that.. are canonical but.. don't really feel as "X-Men" as they might. 
'''
(05:58) 
Miles: So, um, yeah! I guess, let’s- let's go ahead and dive into.. Children of the Atom. So, um, we have a couple.. characters in Children of the Atom that don't really appear, uh, at all, or as much in mainstream X-Men. Um, first of all we have FBI Agent Fred Duncan. Now he's in the Silver Age.. he doesn't really do a lot, uh, it kind of seemed like Stan Lee liked the idea of him when was writing, and Roy Thomas, but-
Rachel: He's also occasionally named "Amos" in the Silver Age.
Miles: Eh yea- I mean, who isn't? Back in the 60's that's what everyone was calling me... that skeptical look, listeners, you can't- you can't see it but trust me, it's there.
Rachel: [flatly] Oh they can hear it.
Miles: [laughs]
Rachel: They're smart. They know. 
Miles: So yeah, Fred Duncan—we don't exactly have a focal point of view character in Children of the Atom, but the book basically opens with him and it keeps coming back to him. He keeps talking on this, uh, handheld recorder.. to somebody named, uhh, “Ben” I want to say? Um, basically it's Dale Cooper and Diane from Twin Peaks, but.. much less charming and interesting. 
Rachel: Which brings up an important point. Uh, Children of the Atom.. is REALLY era-nebulous; um, it was published in 1999. Visually, it looks like it's set some time between maybe like 1986 and 1992. It's- it's very very neon, 80's, fashion-y, um, yeah visually, and also- also language-wise. Um, artistically it looks like a comic that would have come out in the early to mid 80's, just in terms of the storytelling conceits, and a lot of- a lot of the genre considerations and things that were trendy. And so it's- it's really- it makes it very very difficult to place.
Miles: Yeah, and you have a lot of cultural references, that, uh, both place it and really date it. Like one of my favorite weird little things is—the, this series really plays up anti-mutant hysteria. That's what it's about, by and large, and at one point, uh, there's some talk show and they have this graphic talking about how y'know, what OTHER people might be mutants. And it's got this picture, the silhouette of a woman who is VERY clearly supposed to be Monica Lewinsky hovering over the White House with glowing red eyes. Which, I-I-I sort of blinked at that and had to read that panel a couple of times over again to make sure I was really reading what I was reading. 
Rachel: Um, Mulder and Scully also show up a lot, um, again it's in the- it's in the FBI, it's VERY aware it's in the FBI, so there are- there are Twin Peaks references and there are X-Files references, and Mulder and Scully are basically in the background of like every third panel.
Miles: As a huge X-Files fan, I am never going to object to Mulder and Scully showing up in different universes, as long as they don't start, y'know, talking and making no sense. 
Rachel: [crosstalk] Well y'know tha- that X-Men is part of the Tommy Westphall universe.
Miles: I'm pretty sure I exist in the Tommy Westphall universe, I'm only a dream.
Rachel: Well no, no, I'm serious, because, um, in X-Factor at one point, Val Cooper, who's their government liaison, mentions her brother Dale, who's an FBI agent, who's dealing with some case where they found a girl, um, out in Oregon wrapped- a-a dead girl wrapped in plastic.
Miles: That's.. really not very ambiguous at all, is it?
Rachel: No, and the BEST part is that around the same era, the New Mutants are talking about watching Ti- Twin Peaks ON TV.
Miles: Wait, so a things going on and there's also a show about the thing that's going on?
Rachel: Yeah..
Miles: Aw man this is blowing my mind.
Rachel: [crosstalk] What that tells me is that Marvel Twin Peaks is a reality series.
Miles: I LOVE this plan. But I think we're tangenting a lot, so let's, [chuckles] let's get back to- circle around to where we were. So.. Children of the Atom cultural references. Right, um.
Rachel: Speak of tangents..
Miles: [laughs] Yes.
'''
(08:58) 
Miles: So it's uh, yeah i-it's set in this really weird, like, late-80's-ish thing, but what it feels like I- like I was saying is um, it feels a LOT like The Dark Knight Returns. Things are just SO ridiculously dark and not okay. There's this uh, there's this guy.. named, uh, "Metzger" I believe, and he is um—we're going to come back to roles like him when we talk about William Stryker who's in my favorite X-Men story, God Loves, Man Kills, he's-
Rachel: [crosstalk] y'know, compared to Metzger, Stryker is downright subtle.
Miles: Right, so, Metzger, his whole thing, he's kind of like our glorious anthropologist, uh, Bolivar Trask we were talking about in Episode 2, except that he's really more like a Neo-Nazi-Youth-Rally kinda guy.
Rachel: [crosstalk] Okay, this guy is literally designed as a cross between Hitler and Stalin. He's got the tiny mustache, he dresses in a uniform, he's always at a desk with banners behind it, he runs rallies, he uses phrases like "The Final Solution", and THEN.. the FBI, like KNOWING all of this—this is- this is his presence—hires him as a consultant. And it's like, what- what were they even thinking?
Miles: Okay, so it reminds me of this old Kids in the Hall sketch, um, where this person's accepting an award, uh, it's a-  I think it's a woman who's actually one of the actors in drag, and she's like [as “Actress”], "I like to thank my mom, and my dad, and Hitler, my teacher, and my brother" and uh, they're really es-
Rachel: [as “Manager] "I can't believe you thanked Hitler!"
Miles: Yeah, [as “Actress”] "I- I- I didn't thank Hitler!"
Rachel: [as “Manager”] "You- you thanked Hitler!"
Miles: [as “Actress"] "Did I thank Hitler?!"
Rachel: And it's basically just like that, except-
Miles: [incredulously] W-WHY WOULD YOU HIRE HITLER?!
Rachel: Yeah, I can't believe you hired Hitler, it-..y'know, REALLY FBI? Really?
Miles: So yeah we have Fred Duncan, who's uh, the guy we mentioned before. He's been working with a Pr- with a Charles Xavier, who at this point doesn't have a school, doesn't have students, he's just sort of this.. Mutant Activist, y'know, he's a mutant-
Rachel: [crosstalk] He's a super creep, oh my god.
Miles: He's actually, as much as we've been talking about Professor Xavier being a jerk in the mainstream Silver Age, he's like WAY more hostile and harsh in this.
Rachel: He is horrifying. So... you mentioned this being really noir, and you mentioned specifically the Frank Miller, um, references. And this- this is.. I want to make it clear how overt these are, like they, they use the television screen caption.. full-page layouts that are very, very, very evocative of The Dark Knight Returns. There are panels.. that- that basically pull directly from Miller's sort of noir office framings. Um... but in general it give an impression of a comic that's not really sure what genre it's trying to be, because it's a superhero story, it's trying to make it more realistic, but it's trying to making it more realistic.. via a formula that's like this, super dark, gritty… entirely unrealistic in another direction, thing.
Miles: R-right, and so it's [exhales], I- I think the main thing that we- we...as we were talking about Children of the Atom with each other came to, is that, it really doesn't feel like X-Men, as much as it does do some things right. I'd actually like to talk about the things that it DOES right.
'''
(11:53) 
Rachel: Well the Steve Rude covers, first of all, it's only the first four issues, but they are stunning. Steve Rude is a great artist, but um... what he has just- I- I mean his- his interiors are very good.. his covers are.. and I- I- this is a word I try not to use a ton because it gets so overused, but his covers are- are legitimately iconic. Like he is- he is one of the all time great cover artists, and he is at the TOP of his game, in this series.
Miles: Mhm, and um, actually one of the- one of the things that I think is interesting is the uh, the take on the main characters, on our original five X-Men, and Xavier and Magneto-
Rachel: [crosstalk] Mhm.
Miles: Who REALLY are the only Silver Age characters you ever need to look at for X-Men.
Rachel: [crosstalk] Well Xavier looks really scary. Like he is always in shadow, he's got- he- his eyebrows which are- are extreme even under the best of circumstances like look outright demonic in this series. 
Miles: I- I don't want to get too close to those eyebrows, I'm afraid.
Rachel: Those eyebrows will cut you, man, they are knife eyebrows. Knife-brows.
Miles: [chuckles] That's his- that's his secondary mutation.
Rachel: [crosstalk] Oooo, into it.
Miles: Um, but uh- but yeah. So, the- the takes on the characters, it's interesting, it's very different, and I'd like to kinda go through.. how they're.. portrayed. So Xavier we mentioned; he's a lot more aggressive, but in a way, like, I kinda buy it, this is really before he mellows out by taking care of a bunch of teenagers. He's a- [inhale] y'know he'll- h- h- if uh, when Scott tries to run away at some point, not wanting to deal with being a mutant, Xavier's like, [as Xavier] "You can't run away forever!" like really just confronting him.
Rachel: And we should say, the- the premise of this is that Xavier, it's sort of the- it's the getting the band together story. And, um, Xavier's doing this by.. conning his way into a job as the guidances counselor at the really crappy inner-city high school that by a m- astonishing coincidence uh, Bobby and Scott and Hank all go too. 
Miles: Right, uh, they all go there, um, as do basically the anti-mutant Aryan Nation.
Rachel: Who are, again, and speaking of references and not being sure what genre, these guys are straight out of American History X. 
Miles: Uh yeah, like it's, I mean, X-me-
Rachel: [crosstalk] Like they have THAT dance party, they have THOSE headquarters, and they are basically THOSE characters. Like there's even the slightly punk, bitchy girl.
Miles: [crosstalk] Yeah. Right, and so they go to all these.. rallies, which are also kind of raves- I'm sorry, so one of the things that the th- Silver Age always did what that, uh, it wrote teenager dialogue terribly. This totally does too.
Rachel: [crosstalk] And Joe Casey is in that- Joe Casey is continuing the- the- the Stan Lee tradition of having no idea how human teenagers speak.
Miles: Right, so like at one point, one of the Neo-Nazi Youth characters is like, [as Youth] "Let's go hit up a Rave Up!" A Rave Up? Is that different than a Rave? ... Um-
Rachel: I- ... Yaybo?
Miles: [crosstalk] It's pretty wonderful- Yaybo. Yes, we'll come back to that. Uh, again and again. Um, yeah so, we have- we have our five-
Rachel: [crosstalk] As we should.
'''
(14:05) 
Miles: We have our five X-Men. And I kinda like how some of them are portrayed. Like th- it's a very different take. So for instance, Angel, who's probably the least well defined of the original X-Men, at least during the Silver Age.. he's kinda got this Batman thing going on? Like he's going around, as, uh, as a superhero basically, stopping crimes—which is, which is indeed canonical—but he like y'know, uh, heads back to his mansion in the middle of the night, and just broods a lot, he's a- he's a millionaire playboy by day, like uh, straight up Batman.
Rachel: [crosstalk] No, that's actually his ba- that's his origin story in the original.. comics, too; he was a- he was a superhero called the Avenging A-, uh, the Avenging Angel, and he was- he was kind of a crap superhero, and Xa- Xavier got him out of- out of some or other pickle and invited him to come join the X-Men.
Miles: Right, and th- that's one of the things that I think makes the- the tonal shifting of Children of the Atom interesting, is you have like, Angel as Batman, but then you have for instance, um, Scott Summers, who- I really like the way he's drawn in Children of the Atom, he's very like, lanky, he's got terrible posture, he always looks like he's trying to pull himself inward.
Rachel: One of the interesting things about that, is that, even though- so Rude is a very- tends to be a very realistic cartoonist, but the way he exaggerates features is very traditionally cartoon-y. So you've got villain-coded faces and hero-coded faces, aand, of the original X-Men, um, all of them are hero-coded except for Cyclops who's actually- who looks like one of the villains. 
Miles: Yeah, and what's going on with Cyclops at this point is.. so he's um, he's gotten out of the orphanage that he was in, after his parents got killed in the plane crash—and you better believe we're gonna come back to the insanely tangled, uh, nature of that orphanage, um, later on—um, but yeah, so now he's basically living with this like, this criminal, this sort of thief named, uh, named Jack, who used to go by 'Jack of Diamonds'.
Rachel: [crosstalk] who looks EXACTLY like Richard Nixon.
Miles: You'd think- think that would have clued Scott in, but, what can you do.
Rachel: [crosstalk] It's ama- Like he looks exactly- God, this comic is- this comic is amazing. There are some choices in it, that I really don't understand, and that's one of them. 
Miles: [crosstalk/chuckles] Well anyway, but yeah, and y'know, it's- it's straight-up and, like, he is being severely physically abused by this guy, who's basically using his powers for these robberies that he's doing. And so Scott, he's, y'know, he's a battered child, he's got these powers that he can't reveal to anyone, and if he ever takes his glasses off he'll hurt everyone around him; I think one of the things the comic does really well is capture how terrible that's got to be, because he is by FAR the most up of the X- the most messed up of the X-Men in Children of the Atom.
Rachel: And this is one of the things I think underlines the 'Xavier is dick', because Charles Xavier basically, straight-up.. bullies and blackmails him into then joining the X-Men.
Miles: Really, ALL of the X-Men he does this with, except for Jean, she's the- pretty much the only one that comes consensually.
Rachel: No, he makes H- he makes a deal with Hank that Hank'll come if he can beat him at chess.
Miles: Okay, that's true. that's true.
Rachel: [crosstalk] And Hank knows he's a telepath, so that's not quite as disingenuous as the rest.
Miles: [crosstalk] Yeah. And so yeah, then you have, uh- that's Cyclops, you have, uh, Hank, the Beast, who's uh, going with the sort of 'Big Man on Campus' thing that we've seen in the traditional Silver Age; y'know he's a star football player. One interesting thing is this, is he's really playing down his intelligence, like he's sort of worried to come off as both smart and brawny, since a lot of people already suspect he's a mutant, and he doesn't want to make it seem like his physical abilities, are definitely caused by a mutation.
Rachel: Hank is the one of the original X-Men that I think this book gets the best, and one of the definite highlights is the wayit portrays him. What I like—you mentioned him downplaying his- his a- his abilities in- in both contexts—is you see someone who's making a very calculated effort to fit in and not rock the boat. Like, Hank… all of the character's intros in this about- about kids basically struggling to survive. And the way Hank does it is a lot more subtle. And the threat to him is a lot less direct. But you can really see.. the effort, and you can see what he's doing and how he’s compensating very clearly, and very organically.
Miles: Yeah, and it also kinda makes sense, because, th- this being an alternate take on the Silver Age, w- we've mentioned that in the original Silver Age, you just sort of have to take it on Stan Lee's word that mutants are hated and feared; in THIS, like, y'know there are mutants getting beaten to death left and right, there are people talking about MURDERING on national television, like it's really, really intense. And you get the impression that, yeah if you came out, as a mutant, in this era, in this world, you pretty much would live for another day or two if you were lucky. 
Rachel: Let me find this actual quote because this is amazing; [as Narrator] "In any case, Metzger and his anti-mutant militia are a lightning rod for violence and death. Murder is sweeping the country, like the latest fad."
Miles: [incredulous] I don't want to live in that world!
Rachel: Yeah, this is a world.. this is like the X-Men meet.. I- I don't even kn- The Warriors, maybe?
Miles: Uh, The Warriors is much more brightly colored and happy.
Rachel: [crosstalk] Yeah, The Warriors is- The Warriors is closer to classic superhero. What's something that's just- like, everyone has guns, everyone is just super murder-y? It's-
Miles: [crosstalk] I just keep coming back to Dark Knight Returns.
Rachel: I- Yeah. Yeah, but Dark Knight Returns is explicitly set in the future, and what's weird in this is that it's basically set in an alternate 'ten years ago'.
Miles: Now, uh, not all the characters fare as well, so like Bobby, Iceman, really doesn't have a lot of personality in this.
Rachel: [crosstalk] Yeah Bobby is a MacGuffin. Bobby is... yeah there is- there is nooo.. Bobby exists briefly to show.. both that Hank isn't a complete dick, and that Hank.. is super closeted about being a mutant. 
Miles: He protects Bobby at one point from people who are trying to.. beat him to death in the bathroom. 
Rachel: And then chides him for getting got in there alone.
Miles: Yeah, and then, um [exhale] now Jean, ohh, Jean does not fare well.
Rachel: Speaking of MacGuffins. Jean is a damsel in distress, she has no personality, she doesn't really do anything, she gets kidnapped, she gets rescued.
Miles: The- the rest of the X-Men, the origin- the other four, show up a lot, they have character arcs; she really doesn't. Xavier shows up at her house. And mostly it's him talking to her parents while she's just sort of sitting out in the yard playing with her telekinesis. And that's.. unfortunate. 
Rachel: Now there's a nominal reason for this, which is that Children of the Atom leads up to the beginning of X-Men #1. Um, the very- the very ending narration of Children in th- of the Atom is the first couple captions.. of the first issue of- of Silver Age X-Men.
Miles: And um, uh, I'm not gonna lie; as mixed as I was on Children of the Atom, that right there, I sort of got a little twinge of [happily] "awww, yay, that's makes me happy".
Rachel: Except imagine the Silver Age X-Men that like, THAT would have led into.
Miles: Yeah they s- they were surprisingly well-adapted given.. coming from that. 
'''
(19:50) 
Miles: Um, the other character I want to talk about—and really just the last thing in general about Children of the Atom I want to talk about—is Magneto. Because.. would I ever really NOT address Magneto when I have the opportunity?
Rachel: I hear he make some good points..
Miles: [laughs] I heard that too.
Rachel: Well, valid ones. 
Miles: Um, so, [exhales] Magneto is a much less ambiguous, much less sympathetic character in Children of the Atom. Now he's still got the relationship with Xavier, they meet up at a cafe at one point.
Rachel: There's much less of a contrast personality-wis- I mean they've still got the ideological contrast, but they're both really evil.
Miles: We- I- I don't know about that, but anyway-
Rachel: [crosstalk] Okay they're both really terrifying.
Miles: That's true. But Magneto, like, at one point the evil Neo-Nazis use a machine to make a suit- to make like a synthetic human mutant because, well, that's what you do apparently.
Rachel: THAT'S the other thing they talk the FBI into letting them use, like, their craziest, hyper-racist, enforcer dude to test the FBI's "Let's make a souped-up human" machine. Why would you do- like, even if you are the most nutty, racist, like, creepy FBI member, what CONCEIVABLE process- like I want to see the paperwork behind this.
Miles: I'd like to bring it back to [incredulously] "Why would you hire Hitler?!" This FBI- I mean this is the same organization that gave Fox Mulder a gun and a badge, so their judgment is not so hot.. So, yeah we have- we have Magneto and, uh, he is- he's just straight up like a villain, like there's really none of that, "Oh I wish it could be another way" that there are occasionally is, he is like "No. Humans are terrible, and not only do I want to rule them, I actually just want to kill them all."
Rachel: And he's such a fun villain, like, h- Magneto- making Magneto sympathetic means that he loses some of his scenery chewing, and, oh man, does he have it in Children of the Atom.
Miles: Yeah, so ther- there's this one scene, um, where the- the- y'know, the base is burning down, the X-Men have just broken Jean out and, there's like a super-mutant dude coming after them, and M- Magneto confronts them; and uh, I wish I could do a better Magneto voice, it's been a while since I watched the animated series but-.
Rachel: Don't- don't use the animated series voice; it- his accent changes like every episode.
Miles: Well, okay, point. [As Magneto] "How pathetic. The unworthy aspires to Godhood when gods already walk the earth. You hate us, you- yet you envy us, you want to exterminate us, and would then DARE to take our place. As if you actually could. Do you truly think you know power? Allow me to.. educate you." And then he just kills the guy, pretty hard.
Rachel: And then they'll go to the rave up?
Miles: Presumably. But y'know, Magneto as just this incredibly powerful, merciless villain, like, in the world of Children of the Atom, y'know, I totally buy that. I think the ambiguity he has in the main Marvel universe, like, in THIS one, humans are just TERRIBLE for the most part. They'll- they’ll just beat you to death and laugh a lot. So I- I think that's one of the things Children of the Atom does really well, like, I totally buy the Magneto in it.
Rachel: So here's the weird thing about all of that: you talk about the world of Children of the Atom, and the overwhelming impression I get, reading it, is that that world was accidental. You get the feeling- and it was presented and it was marketed as: This is going to be an update of their origins. This is going to be a s- y'know, a realistic take on it. Again, it's anything but it- it overshoots just as far in the other direction.
(22:45)
Miles: So, what's something that works that is more just lighthearted, and cartoony, and episodic?.. [aisde] Segue segue.
Rachel: Why, thank you for that excellent lead in, Miles, to X-Men: First Class. This is a more recent series. This was written mostly by Jeff Parker, um, it came out in 2006 and 2007 with some scattered one-shots later, it has been collected in- or has mostly been collected in these convenient di- digest sized volumes that for reasons that only Marvel understands only basically collect every other issue.
Miles: Now, I think we should point out before we get into this that X-Men: First Class the comic and X-Men: First Class the movie are not the same thing; they share a title, but are not related.
Rachel: [crosstalk] Totally unrelated. X-Men: First Class the movie is about uh, '60s Xavier and Magneto's star-crossed, extremely homoerotic bromance-slash-hijinks. Uh, X-Men: First Class the comic is basically a re-telling of a lot of the S- of a lot of the Silver Age and some of X-Men: The Hidden Years, which is the John Byrne series that that's meant to bridge the Silver Age and Giant-Size X-Men #1. It's episodic, it's fun, it's the original five X-Men having cool adventures.
Miles: So, how is First Class different from Children of the Atom? How's the feel different?
Rachel: Well, first of all, I enjoyed reading it.
Miles: Ouch.
Rachel: X-Men: First Class is really, really fun. I hear from a lot of people who don't like X-Men that the things that they don't like are the soap opera, the really, really heavy, like, make-and-break, "the world is always at stake" stuff. Um, the just intense angsty-ness; and, for those folks, for people who are interested in reading X-books and getting a feel for X-books but really want something that's just a lighthearted, episodic, really, really fun, really involved, superhero adventure, there is no book I would recommend more highly than X-Men: First Class; it captures the central feel and the central tenets of the series, but it- it pulls- it- it- it makes- its- it's fun! It makes it a really fun book that's about, y'know, the cool ridiculous, engaging stuff of the era. You get a good feel of the characters, but their dynamics aren't central. What's central is- is, y’know the fights and the monsters and the continuity it really gr- it's rad! I love it.
Miles: Yeah, and one of the other things I like that First Class does is—whereas, Children of the Atom and the next book we'll be p- be talking about, Season One, are largely just set around the world of the X-Men.. First Class, it just it hops all the hell over the Silver Age.
Rachel: Something that First Class and Season One both do is, uh, break the Jean Grey paradigm, sort of the Jean Grey curse, and they make her really interesting character. And my favorite issue of First Class is a Jean Grey-centric issue where she's getting increasingly frustrated with the dudes on the team and, uh, Professor X arranges for her t- for basically Sue Storm to take her out for a day and mentor her.
Miles: That's the Invisible Woman, from the Fantastic Four.
Rachel: And those were both characters who were really explicitly marginal in the Silver Age, and really explicitly marginal as the girl on the team, and Jeff Parker subverts that absolutely beautifully. Um, I'm not going to give away b- what happens, but it's- it's got a page that, like I tear up every time I read it because it just so perfectly nails what it's like being the only woman and the only girl in what's- what’s expected to be a m- male default team or group or community, and how- how- how much higher that makes the stakes of everything you do feel. And it's just- it's- it's fantastic. It's a r- .. pun intended. P- pun NOT intended. Pun retroactively intended. Um-
Miles: [chuckles] Retcon.
Rachel: Yeah it's fantastic. It's a lovely issue and it's- it's I think a good- a good example of what makes First Class great, because it t- it ties to the larger Marvel Universe, but it's, it's about these teenagers who have superpowers, but they're in a world that has giant monsters, and other dimensions, and established superhero teams, and gods! And that's crazy. And they recognize that.
Miles: Right. Like what it- what it kind of reminded me of was the Xavier School as Hogwarts like I want to go to that school. I want to be able to have crazy powers and fight monsters and have adventures that sounds awesome.
Rachel: And like Hogwarts this is if your school hasn't actually pretty sympathetic hec- headmaster; like this Charles Xavier.. is still kind of getting the hang of running a school full of teenagers, but he's a lot more sympathetic to them than.. than the other ones. And you get the feeling that he created the school... to serve their best interests rather t- than to get them to serve his larger agenda, which is the impression that his Xavier gives pretty much everywhere else.
Miles: Yeah, like there's this one scene, um, it doesn't really- First Class doesn't have a lot of the soap opera stuff but it does have some good character moments. And there's this one scene where, um, Bobby and Hank are off, uh, looking for the Lizard in the Everglades. And so Scott and Jean-
Rachel: The Lizard: the Spider-Man villain?
Miles: Uh, yes yes. Uh, Dr. Curtis Connors I believe.
Rachel: Okay.
Miles: Er no, not Bobby and Hank, um, Warren and Hank. And so Bobby, Scott and Jean, like they're at this, uh, this beach house, just sort of having a vacation basically, um, and Xavier, his big floating head's like, "Hey Bobby, just remember you're more susceptible to sunburns because you're Iceman and that's how your power work." He's like "Oh okay, I'm gonna head inside" and then i- telepathic Xavier looks at Scott and he's like, "Don't say I never did anything for you."
Rachel: So I think that's super creepy. Part of why I think that's really weird and creepy is that I'm- I'm used to main continuity Xavier, from whom that would be absolutely horrifying.
Miles: Right, but like, in this I mean it's like- y'know Scott and Jean-
Rachel: [crosstalk] It's still a little iffy.
Miles: Ehh, maybe, but they've expressed interest in each other already, it's just Scott doesn't really know how to talk to her, and so Xavier is like, hey I'm just gonna help engineer a situation where you guys can talk one-on-one.
Rachel: That's creepy.
Miles: [hesitantly] I can see what you're saying.
Rachel: He's their teacher, he's functionally their guardian. That's creepy.
Miles: And he's sort of their dad who's getting.. his children to hook up with each other. Ok, I see your creepy point but I think it's charming anyway.
Rachel: [crosstalk] It's creepy!
Miles: [chuckles]
Rachel: Xavier: the charming-est and creepiest. Um, a series that X-Men: First Class actually kind of reminds me of—that came out I think around the same time, or a few years later—is an X-Men/Power Pack series. Um, the Power Pack are a bunch of- of superpowered kids in the Marvel universe.. and they did- they did- there was a great four-issue miniseries, um, that cross over with X-Men and each- each issue featured a different one of the X-Men, y'know, f- doing stuff- stuff alongside the Power Pack, and it was similarly... it- it kind of put the Power Pack in that position of being- being the kids who were- were.. on one hand superheroes, but on the other hand, also kind of, in awe of the- the lar- the grown-up superheroes of this larger superhero universe, um, and kind of intersecting and coming into contact with them. And it's gotten a lot of that seemed lighthearted feel, an- and those same sort of really good character windows.
(28:40) 
Miles: So, speaking of the characters, uh, let's talk for a few minutes before we move onto the next book, about how the characters are handled in First Class. How were the original five handled?
Rachel: Well, actually I'm gonna pat this one back to you, because the character who is the main point of view character in this one, is the one who gets the shortest end of th—well, second shortest end the stick—in um, Children of the Atom, and that is Iceman. Who I know is one of your favorites.
Miles: I love Iceman! I'm totally an Iceman. Also maybe a Jean. I don't know, it's confusing. But yeah, so Iceman, uh, he's really portrayed in First Class as "the kid". Like he's the one, with the sort of, uh, goofy hair who feels like he's in over his head, and doesn't quite understand girls, and-
Rachel: [crosstalk] On the other hand, he and Han- his and Hank's friendship is legit my favorite part of First Class.
Miles: If you're gonna do Silver Age X-Men right, you need to get that friendship right.
Rachel: And Parker nails it.
Miles: Yeah, and so like, the first issue is basically Iceman writing a letter to his parents, who know he's a mutant, they know he's at Xavier's. And he's just sort of describing all that's going on and just I- there's just this feeling of- again, it's like Hogwarts. He's just SO excited to be living this insane, wonderful life, where his powers are, like, a good thing, and they give him the- the- the right, the privilege of, y'know, fighting dinosaurs and crazy evil mutants, an- and stuff- and, y'know, going into mystical dimensions. And so, anywa- at, at the end he actually, freezes and shatters the letter because he says Xavier can't, y'know, won't allow him to- to give away too many details, but-
Rachel: [crosstalk] Yeah, I mean his parents don't know that, y'know, they're X-Men.
Miles: Right, just that they're mutants at a school. Um, but yeah, so really I think that fits First Class. First Class, it's- it's a really good all-ages series, and so I think, uh, Bobby, Iceman, is an excellent point-of-view character. He really- like, looking at the world through.. the lens of his mind, you just, you see it, with just this sense of "oh man! Superheroes! Neat!"
Rachel: And again, that's sort of the lens of First Class. He's only the narrator for a couple of issues—that first one and I- I think there's- there's one a bit later—but it really is kind of- the whole series is kind of a Bobby's-eye view of the world, because it is: it's neat, and it's fun, and it's really- it's really warm in a way that- that X-Men, and especially young X-Men stories, don't often get to be. I mean, this is the series, I think- I think a definitive moment- this is the- this is the series—well, and one of the one shots that spun out of it—where Cyclops has a solo adventure, that's just. Silly. Hi-jinks.
Miles: He's fighting Batroc the Leaper: [in French accent] "ze Lee-pair!"
Rachel: [crosstalk] Yes. He fights Batroc the Leaper, and steals a bicycle, and leaves a sweet note, and it's- it's- it's- it's really nice. And it's fun. And it's COMPLETELY not angsty. And that's NOT a thing that happens in X-Men.
(31:05)
Miles: So, let's talk about the, uh, the third alternate retelling of the Silver Age.
Rachel: So, this is X-Men: Season One, and we've- we've mentioned this repeatedly, as a mutual favorite, which it really is, and honestly, this is my favorite introduction to the X-Men. Um, of all of the media out there, of all of the introductions to the teams.. X-Men: Season One just stands out for me as a beautiful, self-contained, really masterpiece.
Miles: Yeah, so, the Season One line was a line that Marvel was doing a few years ago—I think they may still be working on it here and there—but it's basically a bunch of, kind of, one-shot hardcovers, which are updated versions of the origins of various superheroes and superhero teams; so, you have like Spider-Man: Season One, uh, Daredevil: Season One, that sort of thing. Um, and so, X-Men: Season One, it's also nice and digestible, like, I read it on a plane ride heading back from Chicago in its entirety with plenty of time to spare.
Rachel: Like, this is- this is- this book is like my equivalent of a security blanket, it's one of my comfort reads; if I'm having a bad day, I'll just curl up with it for an hour. Because it's- it's really nice, it's really good, and it's, yeah, it's really digestible. It's also got a great creative team, I want to, y'know, mention that because we don't- we don't talk about that a ton, but this is just one of those r- dream team books. It's, um, Dennis Hopeless writing, and, um—this was- I think this was the first thing of his that I read.
Miles: Uh, yeah, me too.
Rachel: And Jamie McKelvie, who's- who's a mutual favorite artist, uh, drawing. He's best known for Phonogram, then more recently for Young Avengers, um, and he is just- he's really good at teenagers, he's really good at facial expressions, and he's got a j- a very clear, clean style, that fits the story absolutely beautifully.
(32:39) 
Miles: Yeah, so, uh, Season One. Um, I mentioned that, we mentioned that Iceman was our sort of point-of-view character in the first issue of First Class; uh, Marvel Girl, Jean Grey, is the point of view character for, uh, the entire series, and that sets a different tone. Like, with Bobby, you have essentially a kid—like yeah, he's a teenager, but effectively he's a kid—as your view to the world. And with Jean, you have a teenager who's really just trying to figure out.. the world, her place in it, who she is, how- how to deal with her powers and identity, um, how to deal with boys; there's, uh, a love triangle with her, and Cyc- Cyclops, and Angel that I think works really, really well, actually.
Rachel: [crosstalk] It kinda turns into a love parallelogram, at- at least one point, too.
Miles: Yeah. Well y'know these things happen.
Rachel: And it's not even one of those "we're in love with the same girl". It's "we're all teenagers and we have the communication skills of teenagers".
Miles: Yeah and so, it's, um, a lot of it- now, if you- if you are avoiding the soap opera by going for First Class, this is where, if you LIKE the soap opera, but don't want it to be super-super angsty, you should TOTALLY go for it.
Rachel: The plot elements that contribute to "soap opera" in a lot of X-Men stories, in First Class are played pretty directly as character building and development.
Miles: Yeah that's- that's the entire point of, um, of Season One is that, ah, you- you're seeing these characters figure things out, and yeah, you see them, like, on these adventures but really those are-
Rachel: [crosstalk] Oh, sorry, I meant "Season One" back there, not "First Class".
Miles: Oh yeah. Um, but really those adventures are just illustrations of, like, what's going on. So, y'know, you're- you're hearing about her and Angel having to learn to communicate, and then it cuts to, like, them tied up in the Savage Land with a Tyrannosaurus coming after them. Like, it's superher- it's superheroics, as a character development, um, as character development tools, which I love because it's often the other way around.
Rachel: [mumbles] Imma try to find this line 'cause it's my favorite line in the whole book.
Miles: I know exactly the line you're talking about.
Rachel: [crosstalk] It's SO good. Um-
Miles: [laughs] Um, but, uh, yeah, so you have Marvel Girl narrating, and she becomes such a sympathetic character. So, like, Iceman's the child narrating First Class. She's the teenager narrating, uh, Season One, and oh man, it- it kind of bring- it kind of brings you back to, eh, the crazy "everything matters so much, but everything is also incredible and full of opportunity" feel of being a teenager.
Rachel: The X-Men, and really teenager- teenage superheroes in general, tend to get written as, like, teenagers written through the filter of adults; like, they're Saved by the Bell teenagers. No teenagers actually ever talk that way. And-
Miles: [mutters] Thank God.
Rachel: Well, and there are- there're exceptions, and again—th- this is another McKelvie book—Young Avengers is an exception. And X-Men: Season One is definitely an exception. OK, here's the line, [as Jean Grey] "We've been awake for two days. I'm sorry I can't throw a dinosaur for you!"
Miles: If I had a dime for every time I s- you and I said that to each other, Rachel?
Rachel: Yeah, this is- this is, this is definitely something that's come up repeatedly over the course of our marriage.
Miles: [laughs]
Rachel: This is- that kind of negotiation is- is part of a healthy relationship.
Miles: Any healthy relationship. Literally. Any. Healthy relationship.
Rachel: Talk about dinosaur-throwing. About the same time you talk about, like, protection and whether you want a kid.
(35:23) 
Miles: So, Season One, it basically covers the first, I don't know, maybe, four or five issues, with some changes.
Rachel: [crosstalk] Ah, eight. The first eight issues.
Miles: [crosstalk] Oh, there we go: the first eight issues of the original Silver Age X-Men. But yeah, it's such a nice, fresh take on it. Like, you see the beast leaving the team.. when he gets really disillusioned by humanity, uh, hating mutants so much; you learn about the relationship between Xavier and Magneto; you see the Brotherhood; you see, even, Unus the Untouchable. But it all feels new, and fresh, and exciting, and not at all dated. Like, of these three books Season One is the one that doesn't feel remotely dated.
Rachel: And it's all interwoven. Um, so... th- all three of these series are structurally really different, and all three of them pull from different- different eras, in different chapters. So First Class is very episodic, um, and it's pulling from all over the Silver Age, and all over The Hidden Years. Uh, Children of the Atom is a limited series, it's a very sequential, and is pulling mostly from the- the Secret Origin backstories. Um, X-Men: Season One is a graphic novel, and it's not the kind of graphic novel that's basically a bunch of issues lumped together, like, it's- um, there are- a lot of what's told, is told in flashbacks and cut backs-and-forth, and it's a really seamless narrative. Um, and it pulls, again, from those- those those first eight issues of the Silver Age. And it's SO. Good. It uses them so well. It integrates them so well. And it takes those stories, which were basically about a bunch of teenagers fighting some cool stuff.. and makes the fighting of- the fighting cool stuff serve the development of these characters, and this team, and the dynamic.
Miles: One of my favorite ways that it does that, is, you see Cyclops, he, y'know, he's constantly freaking out about, uh, not ha- not having enough control over his powers, not being able to lead the team well enough, and he starts doing this thing where he’s in the Danger Room, with simulations of the other X-Men, y'know, basically, like, directing them around, trying to become a better leader, without having to rely on actual people in the training to become a better leader.
Rachel: And without having to put them at risk.
Miles: Right. And, um, uh, Bobby, Iceman, shows up and figures out what's going on, and he's- Bobby always just wants a place to belong, like, that's something I really sympathize with- with- with Bobby Drake, and he's, like, y'know "I'll- I'll be your Iceman, Scott, I'll do whatever you say." And it's just this beautiful- like I mean I- I teared up on the plane, I'm not- I'm not going to lie there. It's some- it just cuts to the- the core of who these characters are, and really, I think the whole reason we're doing this episode of why these characters have such appeal, even when their original forms were not terribly interesting, why we keep coming back to these five characters.
(37:45)
Rachel: Now, speaking of these five characters, X-Men: Season One has something the other two don't, which is that it has—not directly, but obliquely—become canon. Recently, in the current X-Men series, Hank McCoy for.. COMPLICATED reasons that we will explain at length over the course of the next several years—
Miles: Aw boy.
Rachel: —decided to go back in time, snatch the first five X-Men—as teenagers—and bring them back up to the future. And the versions that he grabs are essentially the Season One versions. They're written very similarly, um, it's, yeah, I think- I think it was actually officially mentioned that it's- it's basically those versions. And that's really important because it's in the cur- it's in the current timeline that you get to really see them develop. And Jean is the center of tha- that story: um, younger- younger Jean. Adult Jean is- is currently dead. Um. Although... yeah we- we're not gonna to talk about the Adult Jean's.. situation, right now. [chuckles]
Miles: That would be an entire, other multipl-
Rachel: We thought about using that for the cold open, and then we realized it would have to be almost five minutes long, so, um, yeah- [laughs]
Miles: [crosstalk] But, so-
Rachel: [crosstalk] But, so Jean is central, and Jean is, um, Jean is kidnapped by- by aliens who want to put her on trial for what will be the future crimes of her adult self.
Miles: Just bear with us, we'll get to that.
Rachel: Um, in- in- in the time that has passed between when she was pulled from the past and when the series to- and when she currently is in the present. Um, as a result of that, as a result of getting pulled through time, um, her powers change pretty significantly. And the way she relates to them changes pretty significantly. And she comes into her own.. in a way that she really never had the chance to do within the Silver Age. And as a result, there's now a Jean Grey flitting around the Marvel Universe who is really, really different from any Jean Grey we've ever seen. And I think in a lot of ways the Jean Grey we should have had to begin with.
Miles: Right. Like, if, y'know, the original Silver Age Jean didn't have a lot going on, the one in Season One, like this is what we all loved about Jean that, in a way, we all constructed in our minds, of what we wanted her to be, and what she was, like, in the 80s and 90s. Like, THIS is that Jean, this is the best I- I'm gonna go ahead and say this is the best Jean Grey has ever been written.
Rachel: I-I think you're absolutely right.
(39:56) 
Miles: So, yeah, we have our three Silver Age retellings. There are some others, but these are the ones we chose to focus on, because we think it's- they're the most interesting to discuss-
Rachel: They're also the most self-contained, and they're also.. in print and- and findable.
Miles: With that. Like, sh- what should you read? Should you read the original Silver Age or these? Totally these. And, y'know, I'm sure we've made our opinions on which are the best, uh, clear over the course of the episode.
Rachel: The Silver Age is fun f-for nostalgia, but if you want.. a really good encapsulated read-in-an-afternoon feel of what the X-Men are, what they can be going into the modern era, read X-Men: Season One. If you want awesome hi-jinks,  superheroes, and the X-Men at their most fun, and their most picaresque and their most adventure-y?
Miles: Read X-Men: First Class. If you want to just sort of look at your- the comics open in front of you and say, "Huh?"
Rachel: Read Children of the Atom. And once you've done that, you'll be ready for our next episode, when we are going to be diving in to Giant-Size X-Men #1, the first X-book of what will eventually become the modern era.
Miles: AKA: When X-Men starts to get really good.
(40:55)
Rachel: Now, though: reader questions.
Miles: Okay, so, here's our first one: this is from- on Tumblr, from dischord_inc, "Do you think the X-Men work better when they're part of the larger Marvel Universe, or do they work better if you kinda isolate them? I ask, since I've always found it weird that the citizens of the Marvel Universe can fear and hate mutants, but, say, love Spider-Man, when they have no idea if he could also be a mutant."
Rachel: First of all, that's a great point. That's something that came up, actually, in another question from Joseph Ryan Hill on Tumblr that was re- similar enough that we didn't run both, but, um, I think it really depends on the story and the writer. The X-Men are at their best in the larger Marvel universe I think.. when they intersect with a larger Marvel Universe well, the X-Men are always still a little bit outside of it. They don't quite trust the Avengers. They don't quite trust the rest of the superhero community, and they definitely don't quite trust the rest of the world around them. And the- the crossovers that work really well for me are the crossovers that really highlight that and do interesting things with it.
Miles: Uh, yeah, there is a really good X-Men and Avengers crossover back in the '80s, where basically Magneto's on trial, and they're kind of on different sides of what they think should happen. And I think that e-e-exactly speaks to what you're saying, and that- that's a really good story for that reason I think.
Rachel: Mmhmm. I think- I think a good example of that—not done nearly as well—is Avengers vs. X-Men, where you see some of that, but it feels more, like, let's put everyone in a jar and shake it till they fight.
Miles: That's a really vivid mental image, and I highly recommend picturing that, as, uh, clearly as you can.
Rachel: Can we do a T-shirt of that?
Miles: Theoretically.
Rachel: Although, some- some of the lead-up stories to that, the, um, the Utopia storyline, the Dark X-Men, Dark Reign-era, actually, really nails that earlier feel too, really well.
(42:25)
Rachel: So, our next question is from Ruston H. Wright on our blog, who asks, "Iceman: actual player, or unacknowledged mascot?"
Miles: Oh man. Okay, so I'm really biased, uh, as mentioned before, I'm definitely an Iceman fan. Um, but I think, what makes the character interesting is that line, is that, y'know, we have, uh, Jean Grey doing crazy Phoenix stuff, and Cyclops being all angsty, and Magneto having all this symbolic weight; and you have Iceman, and he's a little bit more moot. He's like "this is my family. I love these guys. I love this life," but you get the impression he's not, y'know, staying up all night, like, uh, screaming, [dramatically] "NOOO!"  at the sky. And uh, I mean he's-
Rachel: Or if he is, it has more to do with bad movies.
Miles: That's an entirely reasonable, Manos: The Hands of Fate, or something? Ugh. So, uh-
Rachel: He's sort of the Troy Barnes of the X-Men.
Miles: Y'know, he- he kind of is. He's a little bit goofy, he is a little bit immature—or a lot immature, depending on which version you're reading—but y'know I don't think it would feel like the X-Men without him, and not just, like, without him present, but without him as a part of the team, without him occasionally swooping in to, to save the day, and without him kind of reminding the X-Men that, "hey we're all just people. As crazy as our lives get, we're all just people."
Rachel: Something that's come up, and that we've noticed before in superhero teams, especially highly powered ones, is that there's often a character who's sort of coded as a ki- the kid or the happy-go-lucky one, but who functionally.. is the team's, um, what- what grounds the team in their humanity. Justice League Unlimited—which is one of my very, very favorite animated series and basically my DC Universe—does that beautifully with Wally West as the Flash. Um, There's- there's- there's an episode that act- or, uh, a couple episodes that basically revolve around, that, that he is functionally the humanity of the team. And I think that's what Bobby is in the X-Men, at least in this group. He is the best adjusted of them. He's the one who has kind of a personality, and a life, and a self, that his powers are only tangential to. Like he would- he could stop being able to manipulate ice and he'd still basically be the same person, in a way that I don't think any of the others would.
Miles: Absolutely. Now, Bobby goes through a great deal of character development over the years, mostly having to deal with unrealized potential, y'know being, eh, an Omega Level mutant, which is the most powerful type of mutant in the continuity-
Rachel: [crosstalk] Yeah, he's the second most powerful of the original five.
Miles: After Jean, absolutely. Um, and [exhales], so, later on, I think that this question becomes much clearer, like, he's absolutely a team member, there's a lot going on with him. But even this early on, I think he's- he's a core part of the X-Men as much as any of the rest of them are.
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(44:52)
Miles: So, we have another question, this is from, um, CrookedKnight, which I- uh- on Twitter it looks like, uh: "How much of the Silver Age needs revisiting? How much has to happen before it's time for the Giant-Size era?"
Rachel: Alright, we covered a little bit of th- w- we covered most of this, in the rest of this episode, but I want to do a brief recap.. of the things you should know before you go into Giant-Size #1. The cursory answer to that is technically, "Nothing, you can start there. They'll give you everything you need from context." But here's the stuff that I would carry from the Sil- Silver Age and it's going to make it a little easier. Professor X is a wealthy dude, who is a telepath, and he decided to start a team called the X-Men by collecting teenage mutants. These are kids who are born with, or developed around puberty, genetic mutations giving them superpowers. They include Jean Grey, a telekinetic who later developed telepathy; Scott Summers, "Cyclops", who, um, shoots force beams out of his eyes, can't control them, and has- and is- is the de facto leader of the team, um; Warren Worthington, uh, Warren KENNETH Worthington III-
Miles: [in a deep official-sound voice] Kenneth.
Rachel: Um, "Angel" who.. has big feathery white wings, and can fly.. is, uh, rich- he's super rich, he's, um, pretty happy-go-lucky; Um, Bobby Drake who is a well-adjusted human being, um, and can do ice stuff; And Hank McCoy, Beast, who, um, is smart, dextrous, and very strong. Later on—and we didn't really talk about these guys in detail, but they show up during the Silver Age—we meet Alex Summers, Havok, who's Scott's little brother, and shoots, uh, plasma bursts out of his chest or whole body and wears a very silly hat; and Lorna Dane, who was originally introduced as, but then later retconned to not be, but then LATER later retconned to be—but you don't need to know that—Magneto's daughter: she can do magnet stuff.
Miles: So hearing you describe everyone with, like, a little, uh, brief intro, kinda reminds me of the Ninja Turtles theme song. And so now I really want a, sort of, cheesy '80s guitar- guitar thing where it tells you about each of the characters, or possibly a rap of some sort?
Rachel: Yeah, okay, this is your challenge for this week, listeners: write us an original X-Men intro rap.
Miles: This would be amazing.
Rachel: [whispers excitedly] Yeah..
Miles: It doesn't have to be rap; I like guitars better, but y'know, do what you wanna.
Rachel: You know you could actually just switch them around.
Miles: ...You could, you could.
Rachel: You really, pretty much, could.
Miles: [chuckles] So, um, anywa-
Rachel: [crosstalk] "Angel is a Party-Dude", etc..
(47:03)
Miles: [chuckles] So, those are our questions.. for this week, uh, what else do we have to talk about before we close?
Rachel: Well, um, this is not actually directly "Rachel and Miles X-Plain the X-Men" related, I am going to take a rare moment and talk about another project that I'm working on. I'm a writer and editor, I write comics, I'm also a pop-culture journalist; I write about comics a lot. And, in the last few weeks, there have been a lot of issues with comics and the comics community, and identity politics, and harassment. And.. I got really frustrated with those, and I started a project about a week ago called "We Are Comics", and the idea of it is basically to put a face on comics, that's maybe not the one that we see all the time; to actually, y'know, get people to talk about what brought them to comics, to show themselves as fans of comics; and to really make a stand for comics as an inclusive culture. The comics industry that I've been part of, and that I've seen in the comics community I've been part of, isn't mostly straight white dudes between 18 and 49. It is incredibly diverse, and incredibly vibrant, and really it always has been. There has not been a time when there weren't women who were making comics. There's not been a time when there weren't people of color making comics, and reading comics, and buying comics, and central to that. And comics as a visual meaning- medium; I wanted to make a visual presentation of that. If you go to wearecomics.tumblr.com, you can see a lot of those pictures, you  s- can submit one, you can read a little bit more about the project. But I wanted to bring that up, because that's something that for both of us, um, X-Men's been kind of central to, in terms of the relationship between comics and diversity, and also in terms of just being something that's been central to us as people and as a couple.
Miles: Absolutely. So, yes please definitely check that out. And of course you can find us at rachelandmiles.com [editor's note: this is now xplainthexmen.com]  where you can also see some of the, uh, panels an- slash screen caps, that we put together after each episode; you can find us on iTunes; you can find us on Stitcher; listen to us, and recommend us, and review us on all of those.
Rachel: And buy our t-shirts, now.
Miles: Yes indeed. Um, thanks again to Chris Sims, for filling in for me last time, when I was busy slinging comics at a show.
Rachel: To Dylan Todd, who designed our awesome, awesome "Magneto Made Some Valid Points" t-shirt.
Miles: And as always to Bobby Roberts, for producing.
Rachel: We'll see you next week in Giant-Size X-Men #1.
[Outro: Excerpt of X-Men: The Animated Series theme song]Category:Podcast episodes
Category:Silver Age
Category:Transcribed