148616-taking-a-break-but-before-i-do-heres-my-suggestions-for-overall-improvement-of-the-w-experience

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Wildstar is an awesome game but I've found myself logging in less and less lately.  I think the reason for that is because I've out-geared everything other than the Raid content, and I'm going to be honest, I tried the Raid content in W* and I think it's good.  It is well made, well thought out, well put-together content and it is very obvious to me that a lot of thought and care went in to creating it.  Excellent work guys!
 
But, again, being honest here, I'm not a progression end game Raider.  Don't get me wrong, it's not because I think it's "too hard" or whatever, it's because I'm attracted to more chaotic types of content that feel more visceral and progression end game Raids just are not my style of content.  They're so regimented and full of those "hurry up and wait" moments.  They feel much less like an action packed adventure and more like a dance recital.  "And step and one two and pivot and one and two and turn...."
 
That's just progression Raiding in any MMO I've ever played though, so don't take it personally, it's just not my style.  With that being said, I have a laundry list of things I would like to see:
 
1.  Item level 90+ versions of Shiphands (Expeditions, whatever), Adventures, and Dungeons:
 
With the current design of the end game content available, you have stratified each type of instanced content by associating a Type with a corresponding Item Level.  I understand the intent, but in practice this is not doing anybody any favors in terms of keeping things interesting in the long run.  Sure, it gives people something to look forward to when they're at the low end of the end game Item level spectrum, but what about the high end?  When you hit a certain Item Level, all the previous content ceases to be challenging or rewarding... which becomes boring.  I love the content that you guys put together, just as a whole, from the leveling zones to the Vet Dungeons and, yes I even like the design of the Raids themselves, but the problem that I cited in another post is one that I'm going to repeat here:
 
- Carbine with through all this effort to create all of this great content, then [you] made 75% (rough estimate) of it irrelevant to any given person at any given point in time by associating each content type with a corresponding Item Level bracket, effectively making all of your end game content disposable with the exception of Progression Raiding (and at best people do that once or twice a week thanks to lockouts).
 
- I've reached an Item Level that works for progression end game Raiding - Does that mean I shouldn't want to be challenged by other types of content?  Does that mean I am no longer interested in feeling like boss battles in 5-Man instances are Epic?  Does that mean I don't want to feel like a badass when doing the 3-Man instances?
 
Am I truly relegated to only feeling like Raiding once a week offers the kind of challenge and reward that I am seeking in my free time?  With the current design, yes, that's where I'm at.  But adding ilvl 90+ versions of these other types of content would definitely change that by broadening the spectrum of things that I feel will cater to my interests and playstyle on a nightly basis.
 
Let's not forget the potential that ilvl 90+ versions of Shiphands, Adventures, and Dungeons would have in the form of PvE challenge runs complete with leader boards, alternate gameplay modes (like "low friction mode" - you have the mechanics in the engine already, but think of the possibilities!), speed runs, etc. (especially Shiphands - it would be like a PvE version of 3-man Arenas!).
 
 
2.  Item Level 50-65 versions of Adventures and Dungeons should also be included to go along with the Shiphands:
 
For whatever reason I know a lot of people who hover around that entry level of gear indefinitely and don't progress beyond that point.  Which is fine with me, they're friends in the game and I enjoy talking to them when I'm working on my housing plot because they're just cool people to talk to and hang out with in the game.  I would really like to see them have access to a wider array of content that caters to their playstyle as well within Wildstar... well the ones that are still logging in these days, lol.
 
I'll admit, this is a bit of lip-service, but I think it needs to be included because, quite frankly, I have a lot of friends who love the game but aren't overly concerned with "taking their gameplay to the next level" and don't particularly care about things like Gear Progression as it is usually a secondary or even tertiary concern for them:
 
 
 
3.  Looking For Raid in the Groupfinder (ignoring the 5 to 10 forum lurking nay-sayers that are going to absolutely lose their shit over this section):
 
This topic is more or less tied to item number 2.  If LFR is added, people will do it.  Pure and simple, it's something to do that isn't the same thing you did yesterday (unless you were actually doing LFR yesterday...).  It broadens the array of experiences available to people by simply being another option of things to do.  Does it really matter how people are enjoying the game as long as people are enjoying the game?  In my opinion, No, it doesn't matter.  If it provides yet another possible answer to the question that people ask themselves when they log in "What am I doing tonight?", and serves to shake up the experience and stave off stagnation, then No, it does not matter "how" people are enjoying themselves, all that matters is that they "are" enjoying themselves - that is a benefit to you, Carbine, as a business.
 
Every time I have played an MMO that includes and LFR type of content, the LFR content has always been extremely popular and genuinely keeps people interested because it fulfills a certain playstyle you don't get to see in any other genre of games.  "Grand Scale Chaos with a horde of loosely organized people engaging in an epic battle against something big and nasty!"  It pops, it's fun, more people love it than don't.
 
Just to illustrate my point, you can even log in to Wildstar itself and see this principle in action with World Boss groups -> One of the most popular engame activities available in Wildstar is World Boss Trains.  Huge numbers of people love that style of content.  There's no denying it, these "Wubba" (I don't get it, either...) groups have become a sort of player organized LFR by proxy.
 
Despite LFR being a "four lettered word" of sorts on the forums for virtually every MMO, it will be popular and people will do it in droves in the game itself (the "Gamble-Box" principle.  People on the forums rage about em, but people in the game spend shit-loads of their hard earned $$ on them).  And through that, there will be a greater sense of participation... variety... retainability... growth...  You get the idea.
 
 
4.  Fishing:
 
I'm not sure "why"; I'm not sure "how", but people for some reason enjoy "fishing" in MMOs.  I don't personally care for it, I don't generally do it, but I can't deny that a well-designed fishing system has an objectively positive effect on MMOs.
 
I guess if anything, my theory is that a fishing system that is designed to get people to spend time in zones that they wouldn't normally go to is a good way to get people out into the world, be more visible, and contribute the the perception of a "healthier" player-base.  Since people use the impression of the existing player-base as one of those deciding factors regarding whether or not they want to invest time in a game, I think adding fishing and designing it to get people to go out and be more visible in the world would certainly be a hugely positive addition to Wildstar.
 
 
5.  Rework the Adventure mechanics:
 
Oh, Adventures, the poor forgotten middle-child of Wildstar's endgame content.  Let's be objective about this, they are entirely too long and not particularly challenging or rewarding.  Adventures are one of those things that probably sounded good on paper, but in practice people just aren't interested in any significant numbers.
 
I think, however, there is a way to rework some of the mechanics that are inherent to Adventures that could make them some of the most popular content in the game:
 
-> Get rid of the "back and forth" stuff.  One of the biggest reasons these instances take so long is because of the constant running to and from the "quest-giver" to "make a decision" on the next course of action.  I would suggest taking out that part of the process, keep the different "options" and have the game "randomly generate" the experience each time a group starts and Adventure by applying a different set of scenarios to each run - Kind of like how Ultimate Protogames currently works.
 
 
The Finale:
 
I am absolutely looking forward to seeing new content added to the game, the "next big thing", and all that good stuff.  I can't ignore that you already have a lot of really great assets available in the game that are not seeing the level of use that they could be, though.  I think making a few tweaks to their end game availability will work wonders for helping a wider variety and much larger number of players retain an active interest in logging in, as well as actually playing the game, as well as being more willing to spend money on the items in the cash shop to help support the continued growth and success of Wildstar.
 
Of course, I'll be logging in and saying "hi" to people if they happen to be on, checking things out, looking at the the cash shop for things I might want to buy to enhance my Wildstar experience and even working on housing stuff.  It just won't be as frequent or as lengthy as it used to be.  So I'm definitely looking forward to seeing what comes from Carbine in the future.  Cya around.
			
				
	Edited December 31, 2015 by Srfrogg23	
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Sounds like you want more single player content.  Harder solo content and dont have to group to do stuff.  
A raid finder is good to have, but not easier raid content.  But I'm confused, you don't like raid and don't want to do them, but you want a raid finder to do raids?  And the WB's in the game are a joke, it's not anything but a bunch of people zerging the boss and killing it in 30 seconds.  No challenge, and lagfest of crap.
And no gear progression?  
			
				
	Edited December 31, 2015 by Orrestes	
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More single player content will come, regardless of whether or not people enjoy it.
 
It's just gonna come in the form of a new reputation zone, full of the same daily quests, lame 5 man mobs that can be duo'd, and some form of event where you're forced to farm trash for 15 minutes before you zerg a lame, recycled boss down.
 
No real rewards, no real gear progression. So basically more of the same crap that's considered outdated and just overall shit. But you know, this is the Carbine way.	
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			As a person who already raids 4 nights a week, adding an LFR with another tier of gainable gear sounds like a terrifying prospect to me. I barely have enough time as it is! D:	
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I agree with you on that WS has a lot of content that is made irrelevant by
the gear and level progression.
And that is true not just for instanced,but also for the open world content.
I just hit 50 on my Esper,and all the way up I couldn't help but to think what
a waste it is to have all these areas and zones that you visit only once whilst
leveling,and then forget all about them.
But the last thing the game needs is to further separate the player base and
queues with more versions of  instanced content.
It would be better to add more effective downscaling for over level and geared
players,and personalise loot drops based on a players actual item level.
So you can play lower level content and help new players,and still be rewarded.
 
A LFR would be a same s#@! different day situation.
What would be nice to have is a party making tool,like the one GW2 has.
It will make it a thousand times easier for everyone to find groups for all
sorts of content,including raids.
 
As for the fishing,only if it'll be fishing with lasers and explosives.	
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Wow. Great post! I agree with everything you put there, the game has sorely missed anything inbetween 5-man dungeons and raids since launch. LFR would fix that. And you've list some other spot on ideas. I hope they are working on some of this stuff.
 
I really don't understand why some people who raid a lot can't see that LFR would be a huge pack of new content for *other* players who *don't* raid a lot. LFR and OQueue pretty much extended WOW for me for another year.
 
Hopefully the content you're after will drop and we'll see you back!	
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			There aren't even enough raids to justify a LFR anyway.	
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I think higher ilevel content is a bad idea to make. Segregating the playerbase is always a bad thing and having server versions of some content is bad and frankly boring. If they made a harder version, what would happen, you'd over gear it and then ask for a new hardest version and so on.
 
I think Final Fantasy 14 does it well,but not perfect, with the use of level and gear sync. You can do low level dungeons for relevant currency and it syncs you down the that level. Also when you over gear it as time goes on they implement a gear sync.
 
With the right sync levels it can still feel epic and challenging.	
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I like a lot of the above comments.
 
Maybe i have a different perspective.
 
I like the idea of more content and more scalible content.  I want people to do more adventures - ultimately i want that great content to be played.
 
I really, truly understand the LFR argument, but I see too many players in raid who for some reason can't not stand in bad or can't understand what their assignment is (go to this corner and interrupt is somehow too hard? I'm confused).
 
I'm concerned LFR will encourage more poor play.  I am very, very tired of the skill level everytime i pug outside of say, 10-15 raiding guilds.  How do we get newer players to play more often and play better?  That's the real question.  I'm open to suggestions.	
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 I am very, very tired of the skill level everytime i pug outside of say, 10-15 raiding guilds.  How do we get newer players to play more often and play better?  That's the real question.  I'm open to suggestions.
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The most effective way that I know of to get people to do what you want them to do rather than what they want to do is to offer them a salary.
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			The question newer players ask themselves is 'why would I want to raid?'. If the answer 'Because it's fun!' doesn't work for them, then the second best answer that can have an effect on them actually bothering with raids is 'because the rewards at the end are worth it despite the lack of fun'. If that answer doesn't work either, then you can't really do much else to lure them into it. If raids aren't fun and the rewards don't outweight the lack of fun, then you really can't do anything to make them suddenly interested. 	
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Well, I would like to think that a person would actually want to succeed at downing a few bosses if they choose to raid. Ignoring mechanics and instruction is not very conducive to making that happen. It's also quite disrespectful to the rest of the people in the group.
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Your point isn't terribly relevant to the text you quoted, but for what it's worth I would also like to think that.
 
In what is assuredly not a coincidence, most people who play this type of game do not choose to raid at any level of difficulty that requires them to subordinate their own preferred playstyle to that of the other people in the raid group.
 
And why should they? This isn't their job. Nobody's paying them to be here. They get to play the way they want, not the way anybody else wants them to. 
 
This returns us to ChemBoy613's point, which was that too many new players aren't playing the way ChemBoy613 wants them to play. The solution is obvious. Hire people to play the way you want them to, or learn to live with people playing the way they want to instead of the way you want them to.
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The question newer players ask themselves is 'why would I want to raid?'. If the answer 'Because it's fun!' doesn't work for them, then the second best answer that can have an effect on them actually bothering with raids is 'because the rewards at the end are worth it despite the lack of fun'. If that answer doesn't work either, then you can't really do much else to lure them into it. If raids aren't fun and the rewards don't outweight the lack of fun, then you really can't do anything to make them suddenly interested.
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I don't agree with OPs suggestions for the most part, but I do agree that there's a problem where 75% of the game is irrelevant to every player at any given time.
 
I feel like this is even worse post F2P, where dungeons have either become something Raiders farm or something newer players get crushed against or carried through.
 
Adventures are hardly ever run, and with the fix to the gold pots, shiphands aren't that popular anymore either.
 
I doth have a solution, but I do feel like this is hurting them game :(	
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Adventures were never fun. People only ran them because they were a part of the attunement process. Once it was removed as part of the requirement, nobody ran them again. No surprise.
 
It's a big timed event where you can't skip any of the lame trash/tasks thrown at you and some even force you to backtrack.
 
If Carbine really wants to revive this game, they really gotta stop recycling old and played out ideas from other MMOs and bring out something different. One that brings out some kind of competition between the two factions. Something that's not instanced but isn't the same old world event bullshit that happens in all their endgame zones.	
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I actually found adventures fun, at least until I bit into dungeon content enough to do it regularly like over a year and 3 months ago.
 
The problem is pacing - Riot in the Void is actually a lot of fun (imo) because you're constantly in the action, same is true of Bay of Betrayal (which I find incredibly fun, too.) The other adventures require a lot of back and forth or travel time. Running around isn't fun - fighting mobs or completing tasks is. Cut out the travel time on adventures and I think they would be a lot more fun. Then add in decent rewards - frankly I'd be happy if they had 1% drop mounts and something else like being the #1 place to farm rune mats.	
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ChemBoy's question centered around randomplayer867576's inability to not stand in fire or their failure to perform a role that is necessary to ensure a raid group's success. 
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If there's enough of them to support the cost of developing that content, sure. Then people who want to play the way they want should get to have their content added to the game.
And if there aren't, they can do things to reduce the cost of development and still get their content--like creating multiple difficulty levels of the same content that appeal to a wider range of players to spread the costs around.
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			Well, I did enjoy adventures way back when when I first hit 59, by other than WotW, they didn't have the staying power. I still enjoy WotW, and am a little sad when people just totem rush, but I usual just go with the flow.	
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Still think City of Heroes' "pick your own difficulty" was pure genius.
 
For those who do not know what it was: In City of Heroes, 90% of all content was auto-scaling on group size, from 1 to 8 players. Spawns were not placed on the map one by one, but in groups, and the size and composition of these spawns got tougher as the player group grew. For example, a spawn group that was two "minions" for a single-player group, might instead be six "minions" and two "lieutenants" for a larger player group. Now, if you thought the content was too easy, you could simply say "spawn the mission for a larger group size than our group actually is", and you'd automatically get tougher spawns (which provided better rewards, of course...)
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			Yes, like using the 8PlayerMode in D2 LANs 12 years ago : )	
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I'm concerned LFR will encourage more poor play.  I am very, very tired of the skill level everytime i pug outside of say, 10-15 raiding guilds.  How do we get newer players to play more often and play better?  That's the real question.  I'm open to suggestions.
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I think poeple missed your mark on your comment. I assume talking about dungeons, and content where people don't do interupts or maximize their class. I recently hit 50 on my stalker and was in crafted epics (btw, this gear is really good for those new players), not runed (waiting to get imbued so can put in superior) and running a dungeon. I spent maybe 20 minutes researching a spec to use, and the rotation. And I was outdpsing and keeping up with the other players that were in iLvl 90/100 gear from contracts and world bosses. Because I learned what to do with my class. Also, myself and the tank were the only ones interuptting in this dungeon run of SSM and hate to say it, but that place requires alot of interupts. Thats what I assume you meant to play better and skill level?
 
So this whole play how you want aspect, um, what? So dont want to bring interupts? So you expect to down bosses with minimum effort? Or all healer/tanks? Or even no utility specs? Or bringing a mix of support/assault stats and expect to be doing good dps? Or soloing raid bosses?
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Well, I did enjoy adventures way back when when I first hit 59, by other than WotW, they didn't have the staying power. I still enjoy WotW, and am a little sad when people just totem rush, but I usual just go with the flow.
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			I have the feeling Carbine would rather let Adventures die lonely in  their little corner rather than provide a way for players to bypass the whole Need to rune up? Use Service Tokens! We provide them to you...for money! madness.	
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As much as I'd like to see the service tokens become an in-game drop, that seems like a pipe dream given their niche as the bridge between cash and convenience for min-maxers.
 
Either way, the point remains that Veteran Adventures are simply not worth the effort relative to Veteran Expeditions because the rewards don't make the additional effort worth bothering with--but then, this is hardly the first time this point has come up and I doubt it's going to change any time soon.
 
So mostly I'm just waiting to see what NCSoft has to say next week, how Blade and Soul looks when it goes live, and what the financials have to say about the F2P transition here. I expect the all three pieces of information will be coming well before the next drop of Wildstar does.	
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There aren't even enough raids to justify a LFR anyway.
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So mostly I'm just waiting to see what NCSoft has to say next week, how Blade and Soul looks when it goes live, and what the financials have to say about the F2P transition here. I expect the all three pieces of information will be coming well before the next drop of Wildstar does.
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Don't forget the part where half of the forums decides to ignore all those three pieces of information in favor of personal experiences, opinions and a general lack of evidence against whatever those three things suggest or say. :P
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Don't forget the part where half of the forums decides to ignore all those three pieces of information in favor of personal experiences, opinions and a general lack of evidence against whatever those three things suggest or say. :P
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Thanks for proving the point, Jeff.
 
The existence of debate does not mean that there is any real question which side of the debate is in fact correct. For example, the Flat Earth Society continues to assert that that the world is flat and all evidence to the contrary is insufficient.
 
That's why people who care about reality rather than simply confirming their own biases pay close attention to metrics and demographics where available and take that information into account when weighing the relevance of their own personal experience and interests to those of the overall playerbase.
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lfr is not for guilds/raiders, its for the rest.
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I don't think I proved your point. Or at least, I don't see how I did.
I agree that the existence of debate does not mean that an answer cannot be known. I do think in *this* cause we don't have enough information. And I do think the answer is more complex than most of us have suspected.
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Best suggestion, I think we can all agree:
 
Sim-core Hoverboard Racing. Take adventures and turn them into racing tracks. Boom. Best content. Casual content. Not more kill content. Hell, they could get ridiculously creative with it too. They don't -have- to use in-game spaces, they could just do some sweet small-scale tracks... You know what, just, take F-Zero GX tracks and call it a day. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnVk3nvu7MU-- you KNOW you wanna cruise through this on a hoverboard. :P	
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I'm aware that you don't think we have enough information.
You didn't think we had enough information when the rest of the MMORPG world was laughing at how badly this game's "hardcore" enthusiasm was trashing the game's prospects and ragequit posts were a daily occurrence.
You didn't think we had enough information when the developers acknowledged that most of the game's players were the kind of solo/small group players that just don't do highly challenge-driven group content.
You didn't think we had enough information when I walked you through an explanation of why TT's metrics were identifying a problem, not a solution.
You didn't think we had enough information when the developers nerfed the dungeons because TT's metrics were identifying a problem, not a solution.
You didn't think we had enough information when I walked you through the demographics of how few players ever even attempt raids at high levels of difficulty.
You didn't think we had enough information when the developers told the press that the game's difficulty/tuning/learning curve was a major issue in player retention.
 
I think it's safe to say that no matter how much information we have, you will find it insufficient to reach a conclusion.
In what is surely not a coincidence, the conclusion that the available information points us to is a conclusion that you don't like.
 
And that's how you proved the point.
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The most effective way that I know of to get people to do what you want them to do rather than what they want to do is to offer them a salary.
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I don't understand why anyone would choose to play poorly.
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Let's be clear: the question you're answering is "How do I avoid having to play content with people who won't meet my expectations of skill and commitment?". And for that question, your answer about kicking out the bads is a very sensible one. But what it's not is a viable answer to the question you were asked, which was:
Kicking out people who don't meet your exacting standards will not get them playing more often or playing better. It will simply remove them from your presence.
So I'm trying to provide ChemBoy with an actual answer to his question, and you're trying to reject the premise of his question and insert a different question in its place.
 
That's funny, I don't think I've ever heard anyone make the argument you're claiming to have heard in every MMO you've ever played.  And I've played a lot of MMOs.
The argument that I've heard a lot is that people should have content available that allows them to raid or do activity X or Y, tuned so that it can be completed without forcing them to do things that they don't find fun and don't want to do. 
 
Those two arguments are definitely not the same thing, no matter how much you would like to pretend otherwise.
In fairness, games built around the motto "play how you don't want" generally don't last long.
 
This statement made me smile because it's so true and so ironic at the same time.
 
Would it be fair then to say that highly challenging raids allow you to "play how you want"? Because if so, the irony levels are going up rapidly.
 
I didn't actually think the irony levels could get any higher, so kudos on exceeding expectations there.
 
If there's enough of them to support the cost of developing that content, sure. Then people who want to play the way they want should get to have their content added to the game.
And if there aren't, they can do things to reduce the cost of development and still get their content--like creating multiple difficulty levels of the same content that appeal to a wider range of players to spread the costs around.
 
And if they aren't willing to tolerate content being developed for them through means that they can actually afford to support, then that's their problem, not mine.
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Team content is based on the idea that people want to accomplish the same goals. As such, that does place some constraints on what you do as a team. You can't have some people attacking x-89 while other people feel like attacking Kuralak. You can't have 10 tanks and 1 healer. You can't have 20 dps (in most cases).
 
But within the basic framework of trying to achieve a goal with tanks, healers, and dps, there is a LOT of flexiblity, and people utilize it. Heck, as a raid leader one of the reasons I enjoy pugs is seeing how other people have solved the same problems. And often, the reason one group does something differently is because of the individuals who make up the raid and the different abilities, skills, and styles they bring to the table.
 
I still run whirlwind on my warrior in ever GA I've been in since F2P, and no one has told me to stop and use AB instead. And I did a pug GA with my wife on her stalker where she is still learning and her DPS was pretty weak- no one gave her any problems, and she got a lot of nice gear on the run.
 
Even in Datascape, there's plenty of flexibility. We run a 4 tank/4 healer strat on System Daemons. A lot of this has to do with the preferences and styles of our team and people who like to tank and heal. Other guilds do it differently. So, fine.
 
No, you can't go and "play however you want", if what you want is not getting the boss down, but there's a lot of room for personal taste in raiding.	
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Best suggestion, I think we can all agree:
 
Sim-core Hoverboard Racing. Take adventures and turn them into racing tracks. Boom. Best content. Casual content. Not more kill content. Hell, they could get ridiculously creative with it too. They don't -have- to use in-game spaces, they could just do some sweet small-scale tracks... You know what, just, take F-Zero GX tracks and call it a day. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnVk3nvu7MU-- you KNOW you wanna cruise through this on a hoverboard. :P
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All the places where you "walked me through an explanation" were logically flawed, and always have been. Just because you say these things, doesn't make them true. They certainly don't prove the point.
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Maybe they are choosing to play well in the style they enjoy, rather than playing poorly in the style you enjoy.
Maybe if you want them to play well in the style you enjoy rather than the one they enjoy, you should pay them to work for you rather than letting them play for themselves.
 
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			Standing in red and dying is not a style of play.	
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			I don't understand why people would quit after x-89 disappears. They have other bosses to work on. And if they want to do x-89, they can jump into real GA and do it . . .	
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Are you trying to say that if I wanted to do group content, die often, never interrupt anything, not rune my gear, and use a build that does 10% damage, this is ok?  Is that what you are trying to say?
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I'm saying that if you want people to play the way you want them to play rather than the way they want to play, that's your problem and not theirs. 
It works in reverse, too.
If those people want you to carry them through content, that's their problem and not yours. You shouldn't have to do that--and you don't.
 
You can votekick a person who isn't pulling their own weight.
You can leave the team yourself if everyone else is willing to tolerate it and you're not.
You can leave the game if the game allows people to log in without passing a competency test.
 
What you can't do is force other people to enjoy what you find fun just as much as you do.
 
Welcome to the real world
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I don't understand why people would quit after x-89 disappears. They have other bosses to work on. And if they want to do x-89, they can jump into real GA and do it . . .
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{| class="blockquote"
I think your analogy doesnt work all the time.  Show someone how to do something properly, and they realize oh, not so bad, wait, this is fun.  Instead of just giving up.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Or, they say "Nah, really, I just don't enjoy synchronized swimming no matter how much you enjoy synchronized swimming".
 
----
			
The idea of being good at something making that something enjoyable isn't always true. I think I could be exceptionally good at playing medics if I invested my time into it, but that doesn't make the quantum cascade build any less detestable for me to play.
 
I always want more raid content - that is the core of my content consumption. I play to raid, it's true. But I'm under no illusion that everyone would be happy to raid if they just were better at the game. So alternatives are always, ALWAYS necessary and a good idea, as long as they do not detract from or undermine existing content.	
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{| class="blockquote"
Because--and I know this will sound crazy--creating working content for a game, adding it, and then removing it again without any compelling reason to do so is flatly idiotic.
It takes time and effort to make stuff and polish it to go live. Once it's there, leave it there so people can enjoy it.
 
As for your solution for everyone who misses your 30 day window, the same solution currently applies to everyone with no additional development effort required at all.
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{| class="blockquote"
Or, they say "Nah, really, I just don't enjoy synchronized swimming no matter how much you enjoy synchronized swimming".
 
You guys really are the PvE version of those PvPers who want everyone to enjoy mandatory owPvP, aren't you. :lol:
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It wouldn't be "for no reason at all". The goal is to focus the community on learning one fight at a time and to keep them working on something for a lengthy period of time and keep them engaged. And you give them something to look forward to.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
That goal is just as easily achieved by leaving the content in the game persistently and simply making each successive boss unlock for players when they beat the previous one, just like happens in the continuous raid instance.
----
			But but casuals just got a new event? Don't you like your new event its like so much fun....	
----
			
Yasfan, you just hate raiding period.  You want this game to be a single player game with possibility to have group content.  You know, if they made a Solo Version of DS/GA, but did not drop loot, person would do it once and be done.  Than shortly quit the game.  Look what happened to omnicore, people did it once, than done.  Maybe a couple more times for costume (heavy gloves do not exist). I think you miss the point of having repeat content and grinding and getting better.  Missing the 2nd M of MMORPG.  
 
Accessibility, its there.  It's being proactive and finding a group instead of clicking a button for the game to find it for you.  There are pug GA raids every night now.  Look in the LFG channel, and there you go.  Sorry that it doesnt happen at 5 am in the morning for people.  Could accessibility be better, sure.  But your getting on Slyjeff for an idea about getting people involved in the raids.  And to have to down X89 than have Kuralek unlocked, than que up for just that boss fight defeats the purpose of what raiding is.  PROGRESSION!
 
The only thing you can't do on your own schedule right now is raid content, and large group content like Drusera's tree or defile event.  
 
It actually confuses me on how casuals complain about not being able to see raid content in a MMORPG and not needing to have to depend on others to help you do the content.  Do they not know what a MMORPG is?  There's the I want to play however I want, but you miss the point of mechanics in the game.  It can be bagged on by people want to on "synchronized swimming" but its something called game mechanics.  It's there.  You really think you can kill something with 18 healers and 2 dps and no tanks?  That's what I think of when you mention how I want to play.  What spec I want to use.  PVP dps spec for PVE content.  Using 2 dps abilities and the rest utility and expect to kill things that require dps checks.  Fail to see what game mechanics are.  Sure, can't do the "synchronized swimming" for whatever reason, than don't complain that you are unable to see the content because you can't do the game mechanics.  I want to go play in the NFL or MLB, but know what, I can't because well, there's something called talent.  There are so many instances of "real world" that people can't do things.  Not everyone has abiltity to do everything, enjoy what you can do.  
 
*also like to add, this game is a trinity system, not a whatever I want to do system with no healers or tanks.
			
				
	Edited January 7, 2016 by Orrestes	
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{| class="blockquote"
The goal is to create one event to focus non-raiders on so they can experience some of the existing raid content and have something to work toward. These bosses are more challenging than the current world bosses and will take some time- but with only one at a time for the community to focus on, the "hive knowledge" can work so everyone gets a chance to learn the fights. Kuralak could be done by the community if everyone was focused on learning it. If you split that learning over four bosses, then people will farm the easiest one and it will take a lot longer to learn the more challenging fights.
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The reason not to make all the bosses available is I think that the last two are significantly more challenging from a set up/learning standpoint. The first four are much more obtainable tasks for a random group pugging.
 
I don't know that I want an "event". But I can see people building anticipation for the next boss to be available as they get tired of the old one, and it generating a buzz around the community learning and downing the current boss. Like the way T3 contracts work.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I'm pretty sure that the average Little League player will never make it into the major leagues, but they are still allowed to play baseball. Oh look, yet another team activity that has sliced through this game's Gordian knot by having multiple versions of the same thing with different difficulty levels and rewards that increase with increasing difficulty.
 
It's uncanny how people have stumbled onto that simple paradigm for success in so many different contexts. It's almost like it's a completely obvious thing to do or something, I dunno.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The goal is to create one event to focus non-raiders on so they can experience some of the existing raid content and have something to work toward. These bosses are more challenging than the current world bosses and will take some time- but with only one at a time for the community to focus on, the "hive knowledge" can work so everyone gets a chance to learn the fights. Kuralak could be done by the community if everyone was focused on learning it. If you split that learning over four bosses, then people will farm the easiest one and it will take a lot longer to learn the more challenging fights.
 
But whatever, it wouldn't bother me to release all four at once either, tbh.
 
 
He didn't say top 10-15 raiding guilds. He said outside of the 10-15 raiding guilds he's played with. And yes, mine is one of them. And yes, last time he played with us we wiped on Phagemaw for an hour and didn't get it down (this was several months ago). And yes, we've improved and he was someone who was very encouraging us when we were working on SD and after we got them down.
 
I don't think he intended to say that those 10-15 guilds were the only ones improving. I think he was saying that he has a small group of players he knows that work at improving, and many others who don't seem to care about getting better. TBH, I don't actually share his experience- most of the people I've played with I do see wanting to improve and get better. But his guild also brings a lot more pugs into their GA runs than mine does, so he probably has a more accurate impression.
 
You should know, he is very patient with new players in his GA runs, and even tells people to be patient with them if he sees they are still learning. He gives them the benefit of the doubt that they are trying and want to get better.
 
 
I'm not at all opposed to other types of content development. The only thing I'm opposed to is creating an easier version of GA/DS. I've said many times I'd love to see a more casual raid. I've said many times I'd like to see a 20 man expedition. I'd like to see instanced world bosses. There are lots of options to expand the game and meet the needs of non-raiders. I simply think that an easier version of GA would harm the game and not benefit it very much.
 
But even having said all that, this has nothing to do with wanting people to raid who don't enjoy it. None of us raiders want people in our raids who don't enjoy raiding. None. We want people who want to be there and find the activity fun. Dear heavens, it's challenging enough organizing people who enjoy what we doing. Trying to get people don't like it to perform well and be team players? Stuff that!
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
So out of curiosity, why is it so important to you that it's an event and not a persistent, permanent change in how players are able to access the raid content? It seems to be the aspect of this that you simply keep focusing on. You also have been explicit a few times now that it should be extend only through four bosses, ensuring that nobody could actually complete GA through this event. Is there some reason why the entirety of GA shouldn't be made available?
 
I'm pretty sure that the average Little League player will never make it into the major leagues, but they are still allowed to play baseball. Oh look, yet another team activity that has sliced through this game's Gordian knot by having multiple versions of the same thing with different difficulty levels and rewards that increase with increasing difficulty.
 
It's uncanny how people have stumbled onto that simple paradigm for success in so many different contexts. It's almost like it's a completely obvious thing to do or something, I dunno.
----
			
TLDR...
 
But before CRB thinks about any kind of LFR, and to get more people into raids, first they should change the locking system of raids. The locking mechanism is ANCIENT, it needs to change to loot lock or something. I would LOVE to raid more, e.g. to help guildies, even in pugs, on bosses I'm already locked, even raid just for fun, I don't care about loot much, I would try LFR if there will be any (depending on how it is implemented), or jump in only for a few bosses when I have less time, etc. but with the current locking mechanism it's moot to even think about it... I just log on on raidnights because that's when I can raid with my guild, I have no reason to be interested in raiding on other days.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I'm pretty sure that the average Little League player will never make it into the major leagues, but they are still allowed to play baseball. Oh look, yet another team activity that has sliced through this game's Gordian knot by having multiple versions of the same thing with different difficulty levels and rewards that increase with increasing difficulty.
 
It's uncanny how people have stumbled onto that simple paradigm for success in so many different contexts. It's almost like it's a completely obvious thing to do or something, I dunno.
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{| class="blockquote"
Haha, so I'm an adult, not playing Little League.  And the only "baseball" I can play is old man softball leagues and there's no football leagues.  Sure I can go get a group of people to go play, but there is not many organized sports.  That was just one analogy, I can bring a lot more.  Life is unfair.  You don't get everything you want.  If that was the case, there would be no starvation, no crime, don't have to work, and no drama in your life.  
 
Having loot lock is hard to implement.  The only way to do that is to be able to have per boss lock, and be able to be locked to multiple instances.  The multiple instances is so don't have to redo bosses.  And a RAID FINDER, not a LFR w/ different difficulties.
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{| class="blockquote"
I see this a lot on the forums. Carbine shouldn't do something because it's too hard to implement. I'm not sure if this is just a thinly veiled way of disagreeing with someone without actually having to construct an appropriate argument, or if some of Carbines die hardiest white knights are even starting to lose a bit of faith in their beloved developer team.
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{| class="blockquote"
Having loot lock is hard to implement.  The only way to do that is to be able to have per boss lock, and be able to be locked to multiple instances.  The multiple instances is so don't have to redo bosses.
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{| class="blockquote"
I see this a lot on the forums. Carbine shouldn't do something because it's too hard to implement. I'm not sure if this is just a thinly veiled way of disagreeing with someone without actually having to construct an appropriate argument, or if some of Carbines die hardiest white knights are even starting to lose a bit of faith in their beloved developer team.
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			I didn't realize you guys were so sensitive, if I had used "defenders of Carbine" would your feelings have been hurt less? Sheesh.
			
				
	Edited January 8, 2016 by Thelonious	
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{| class="blockquote"
I didn't realize you guys were so sensitive, if I had used "defenders of Carbine" would your feelings have been hurt less? Sheesh.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I didn't realize you guys were so sensitive, if I had used "defenders of Carbine" would your feelings have been hurt less? Sheesh.
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{| class="blockquote"
Where we differ is i think better play should get better rewards, that's all.
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			Interesting implied logic I saw there. Life is unfair, therefore we should accept all unfairness in the world. Remember that when I steal your wallet: you shouldn't complain or call the police; you should accept it because life is unfair!	
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{| class="blockquote"
Try again, please. We agree that better play should get better rewards. That's the entire concept of risk vs. reward, and I'm a big fan of it.
 
Where we don't agree is on how much better the rewards should be for the top few percentage of players compared to the median player, and we disagree for completely different reasons. Your position is based on the large effort required to become one of the game's top players, and mine is based on the large cost required to create the rewards that they're currently getting.
 
----
			Yasfan believes that there should be a solo path that is as hard as Datascape that rewards Datascape level gear.	
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{| class="blockquote"
Yasfan believes that there should be a solo path that is as hard as Datascape that rewards Datascape level gear.
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{| class="blockquote"
So what you're saying - let's go current system:
 
Shiphands - 60
Adventures - 70
Dungeons -80
WBs - 90
GA - 100
DS -120
 
So, personally i don't have a problem with this, because I think datascape is really quite difficult and the rewards for doing well in datascape SHOULD be excellent.
 
What you're saying is that the fact gear progression is so broad means that less killed/group players are limited too much (because ilv 60 gear is barely viable in dungeons) that it makes it difficult to progress.
 
Have i accurately restated your point?
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{| class="blockquote"
Nope. I'm not talking about iLevels at all here, which is why I'm talking about the cost to create the rewards as something substantial.
Making an in-game item is not a substantial cost unless it's a particularly fancy one that has all kinds of shiny visual effects--and even that pales in comparison to what I'm talking about.
 
Because the reward of playing exceptionally well in a particular style here isn't gear, it's PvE instanced content.
 
If you want the best gear, fine. It costs the playerbase as a whole effectively nothing for the developers to make an item, so it doesn't matter if most people will never have it. Go for it, you earned it. Wear your shiny gear with pride. Roll through town on your Data Drifters that say "Hey, this person is good". Mad props. 
 
PvE instanced content is too expensive to turn it into a reward for the top few percent of players that most people will never engage and never see. It costs the playerbase as a whole a great deal for the development effort required to make a raid tier, so it matters a lot how many people will ever engage it.
 
That's just a business reality. The rewards you are getting for being a world-class video game player simply cost more in real world expense than the real world value of achieving that level of skill in playing a video game.
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{| class="blockquote"
So the actual complaint is you are saying "to survive, wildstar must put its resources where it's players are, instead of giving them stupid money-grab events"
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{| class="blockquote"
I believe this exists and it is called Dark Souls
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{| class="blockquote"
This reads like a 'git gud or leave the game' variant. Dark Souls is a completely different game, though it does serve as evidence that hard solo content is NOT the impossibility that some people in the forum community keep trying to pretend it is.
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{| class="blockquote"
More or less, that's right. Of course, if a tiny subset of the playerbase is a massive part of the revenue stream, those are the ones that the game needs to keep happiest. But close enough.
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{| class="blockquote"
An MMO creating hard solo content is not playing to the strengths of its genre. I am actually not against this, but I seriously doubt the market is there. I also think that a game focused on solo play will always be able to do a superior job than one that is trying to do both solo and multiplayer at once. Hence titles like Fallout not having a multiplayer mode.
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{| class="blockquote"
I think wildstar wanted player experince to scale the way gear scales, like you actually go through a skill progression.  but now it's like, why bother doing all that if i can get carried and raid GA in a week?  it doesn't make sense.  I have a friend who made an engineer and KILLED AVATUS two weeks after hitting 50.  I do not think that's the most enjoyable way to play the game OR the the way it was intended.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I think wildstar wanted player experince to scale the way gear scales, like you actually go through a skill progression.  but now it's like, why bother doing all that if i can get carried and raid GA in a week? 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Because... getting carried is meaningless and boring, Why do you think I didn't take you up on your offer to carry me through content?
I don't want to be carried. I want content tuned so that it's possible for me to actually progress through it at the level of commitment to the game that I'm actually willing to provide.
If this game doesn't want to provide that, they certainly don't have to--but then they shouldn't be surprised when I don't contribute much to their revenue stream.
 
If it were rather pointless, we would not have a 20-man version of Datascape.
Clearly it is possible for the developers to add and/or tweak existing content to make it more meaningful to the overall playerbase.
 
So no, it's not water under the bridge because most of the customerbase for this game isn't even on the bridge.
 
If there is any reason that it might be pointless to complain, it's not that the costs are already sunk. It's that the game may well already be sunk.
At this point, we're all talking about the game's issues as if it's a given that the development team doesn't have the resources to fix them even if they wanted to.
If that is in fact the case, the game is already dead and everyone running out and buying lockbox keys is being played for a fool.
 
We're now a week away from hearing what NCSoft has to say, and about 3 weeks away from the next earnings release that tells us whether the F2P transition actually brought people in and kept them long enough to increase revenues. Not to mention the release of B&S and BDO. Should be interesting.
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{| class="blockquote"
This reads like a 'git gud or leave the game' variant. Dark Souls is a completely different game, though it does serve as evidence that hard solo content is NOT the impossibility that some people in the forum community keep trying to pretend it is.
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{| class="blockquote"
I mean, i am somewhat half-joking.  I think an MMO is meant to be done with other players, and is most certainly NOT meant to be solo content.  If I wanted to do solo content, there are many places to return.  I have really enjoyed jRPGs (final fantasy), meant to try american RPGS (mass-effect), and really enjoyed Starcraft as well - all games where i don't have to have teammates.  The fact is, I LIKE having teammates, which is why i spend so much time in wildstar.
 
Some games out there are really meant to have solo content, but those aren't MMOs - at least IMO.
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So how exactly do you read ilvl 90 expedition/adventure/dungeon, ilvl 50-60 dungeons, easily accessible raiding, and adventures rewarding to encourage groups running it, then take from that..
 
 
{| class="blockquote"
Sounds like you want more single player content.  Harder solo content and dont have to group to do stuff. 
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{| class="blockquote"
I think wildstar wanted player experince to scale the way gear scales, like you actually go through a skill progression.  but now it's like, why bother doing all that if i can get carried and raid GA in a week?  it doesn't make sense.  I have a friend who made an engineer and KILLED AVATUS two weeks after hitting 50.  I do not think that's the most enjoyable way to play the game OR the the way it was intended.
----
			
I agree with most of what you said, ChemBoy, I just want to note a few places where I have something to add.
 
{| class="blockquote"
I was under the impression you haven't done dungeons?  I think that's possible with relatively small time/effort commitment.  It's very much not like raids.  The problem is PUGS are either hit or miss.  You could easily get 4 amazing players that blow through it effortlessly or you could get four terrible players who can't do anything, or anything inbetween.
----
			
I'm laughing at the B&S being this huge thing to solve people's casual lifestyle when I don't think people understand how little PVE content there is in that game until future patches and people will blow thru this so quick.  NCSoft released alot of content around patch 3-4, and NA release is patch 2 I believe.  The release is behind whats out in Korea, but NA max level is 45 vs 50 in Korea.  But there are 4 solo dungeons, called Big 4 but I believe they are adding 2 more, on release and than you get 1 "endgame" dungeon 24man/6/4 with the less people you have, the harder it is.  The dungeons are small and actually can do with a group, but soleable (think expeditions).  Endgame is 4man dungeons, not raids.  All have a dungeon finder.  Future patches release more dungeons, and a big solo dungeon and "ready" but I think they are waiting for the population to catch up so doesn't skip the content.  Other than that, just questing, and daily zones.  Oh and grinding, lots of grinding.  But PVP is a big thing in B&S and the best gear gear is obtained thru pve.  So all this "casual" stuff to do is going to be eaten up in a few weeks.  And the f2p is the same system as Wildstar.  Almost the exact same.
 
{| class="blockquote"
So how exactly do you read ilvl 90 expedition/adventure/dungeon, ilvl 50-60 dungeons, easily accessible raiding, and adventures rewarding to encourage groups running it, then take from that..
 
 
 
thats literally the exact opposite of what was suggested.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I've been thinking a lot about this recently, and it would be nice if rather than progressing in a linear fashion, if the content could be progressed through on parallel paths. Meaning nothing needs to get skipped. Instead of dropping weapons, it would be cool if raids/dungeons dropped enhancements that would add power to gear for that instance (or set of instances) only. Thus you could as a group work on dungeons, GA, or DS in whatever order you wanted. As you progressed through GA you'd get more powerful in GA, but DS you'd be starting from scratch. And if you wanted to skip over GA, that's fine, but if you did, you could always go back and "progress" through it. You'd just need some kind of reward for finishing each type of content that wouldn't invalidate the other content.
 
Anyway, no way could WS do a system like that. I think it's hopeless locked into the power creep/gear progression model, but it's a shame that so much of the really, really good content is just getting ignored. GA is so amazing, it's sad that it gets no respect anymore.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This reads like a 'git gud or leave the game' variant. Dark Souls is a completely different game, though it does serve as evidence that hard solo content is NOT the impossibility that some people in the forum community keep trying to pretend it is.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 But ultimately, I'm not interested in being carried through it at all. Not in a premade team of me and four amazing players who can carry me, and not in a random PUG of me and four amazing players who can carry me.
 
The problem isn't that PUGs are hit or miss. The problem is that PUGs have no way for me to avoid being stuck in those groups where I am simply cargo and not a contributing player because I haven't already mastered it.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I'm laughing at the B&S being this huge thing to solve people's casual lifestyle when I don't think people understand how little PVE content there is in that game until future patches and people will blow thru this so quick.  NCSoft released alot of content around patch 3-4, and NA release is patch 2 I believe.  The release is behind whats out in Korea, but NA max level is 45 vs 50 in Korea.  But there are 4 solo dungeons, called Big 4 but I believe they are adding 2 more, on release and than you get 1 "endgame" dungeon 24man/6/4 with the less people you have, the harder it is.  The dungeons are small and actually can do with a group, but soleable (think expeditions).  Endgame is 4man dungeons, not raids.  All have a dungeon finder.  Future patches release more dungeons, and a big solo dungeon and "ready" but I think they are waiting for the population to catch up so doesn't skip the content.  Other than that, just questing, and daily zones.  Oh and grinding, lots of grinding.  But PVP is a big thing in B&S and the best gear gear is obtained thru pve.  So all this "casual" stuff to do is going to be eaten up in a few weeks.  And the f2p is the same system as Wildstar.  Almost the exact same.
 
iLvl 90 expeditions is solo content.  LFR (easier version of raids) is solo content.  If you deny that, tell me you can't do the World Bosses solo and still get rewards?  Or join the group and afk thru the kill.  People do them, get some gear, and quit after a week or two.
 
So the biggest voice on these forums for small group content and casual play, has not done the "big" small group content that is currently in the game for Lvl 50?  You have admitted to having iLvl 100 gear mostly, you should be carrying people in vet dungeons, not the other way around yasfan.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Name one person in this game who has mastered every nuances of every dungeon, and is completely flawless in execution every time. Name one. Even your biggest fan Ufa isn't it.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
So the biggest voice on these forums for small group content and casual play, has not done the "big" small group content that is currently in the game for Lvl 50?  You have admitted to having iLvl 100 gear mostly, you should be carrying people in vet dungeons, not the other way around yasfan.
----
			It's completely cool to not do things that you don't enjoy. I just don't know why you spend so much time talking about it and how you'd change it. It's not your thing- and that's OK. What you really want is something fundamentally different than the current raid/dungeon content, which is fine. But WS is what it is. Your vision is so drastically different, I don't see it ever getting there. Beyond that, I'm not sure many people share the same vision you do. I know a lot of people have asked for an easier version of GA, but I don't see that addressing any of the things you've listed. And this whole thing about "reshape my playstyle and build", unless your build/playstyle is such that you really can't do your job, it really isn't necessary. All you need to be able to do is fill a role adequately (tank, dps, heals), you don't have to have an ideal build or rotation. But if your issue is that you consider "well, I don't really want to tank, dps, or heal- I'd rather do [xyz]" then that's just a problem of not wanting to do group content in a trinity MMO. Which is also fine, but expecting them to change away from the well-worn and established trinity system is surely and exercise in futility.
			
				
	Edited January 11, 2016 by SlyJeff	
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