Report 1573

Report #1573
Skillset: Wicca Skill: Toadcurse
 Org: Moondancers Status: Completed Dec 2016
Furies' Decision:
Solution 3.
Problem: Toadcurse is an 8p ability that will strip the target of it's defenses
and turns it into a defenseless toad, which can in theory hop around and run
away, though in a real combat scenario never will. However, for the wiccan
causing the toadcurse, it is always rather dissatisfactory, as despite the kill
being almost always ensured, the wiccan will never get the credit/blame for it,
as an ally or even an enemy will always stomp the toad instead.
[A: 6 R: 9] Solution #1: Change Toadcurse to the wiccan automatically stomping
 the toad after toad has been cast.
[A:11 R: 5] Solution #2: Do instakill only if target is below 33% mana. Remove
 the stun from kissing toads. Below 50% mana, old
 usage is retained.
[A:18 R: 0] Solution #3: Change the one credited for the kill as the wiccan
 toadcursing and not the stomper. (Could be combined
 with Solution 2)
Player Comments:
---[Synkarin on 11/29 @ 23:02 writes]:
What about something like this - if you toad someone at <50% mana, it functions
as it does currently (though maybe remove the stun on kissing toads) and if the
target is even lower, like <33% or even <25% mana, it instantly kills the
target?
---[Falmiis on 11/30 @ 00:57 writes]:
I prefer solution 1.
---[Demartel on 11/30 @ 01:14 writes]:
I am not partial to this either way. Though I will add, I don't think it is
needed as kill stealing is an issue in groups for everyone and 1vs1 it wouldn't
matter.
---[Demartel on 11/30 @ 01:16 writes]:
If it does go through as a straight instakill though, I think it should be
lowered to 33% mana as 50% mana is not hard to establish in groups.
---[Shedrin on 11/30 @ 03:54 writes]:
Important to consider that removing the toad phase also removes the ability to
KISS TOAD.
---[Raeri on 11/30 @ 07:17 writes]:
Alternatively we could change the kill line to credit the toadcursing wiccan
instead?
---[Aeldra on 11/30 @ 09:35 writes]:
I changed the solutions to reflect the suggestions of Synkarin and Raeri.
@demartel your "kill stealing is everybody's problem comment." I am not aware of
any other mechanic that almost guarantees that your kill is stolen.
---[Demartel on 11/30 @ 16:08 writes]:
Anyone who has had their target die while deathsonging them, anyone who has had
their target die while chasming them, anyone who has had their target die when
decapitating them, and so on... Everyone has felt the "you stole my kill" vibe.
Toadcurse is not an instakill, it never has been. The "instakill" is the Stomp.
Toadcurse is like inquisition, in that it strips the defs and stuns so you can
perform the actual instakill. The issue is that anyone can stomp and
"killsteal". I personally don't see this as an issue, since it is more important
to kill the target than who killed the target, but I can understand the
emotional investment in never getting your own kill, which is why I am on the
fence on this report. I like Raeri's suggestion, personally, just attribute the
kill to the person who made the Toad. i.e Sidd has been stomped upon due to
Aeldra's toadcurse. I am sure the admins can come up with something more flashy
though.
---[Demartel on 11/30 @ 16:24 writes]:
Thinking on it more, Raeri's solution is probably the best way to go if anything
needs to change. As I said, Toadcurse is not an instakill or implied to be one,
and even if an instant stomp was given it would not gaurantee a kill as it is
100% blunt damage. Anyone at the upper tier will have a high enough blunt
resistance that it will take 2 stomps to kill them, meaning this change will
solve little for the Wiccan community.
---[Falmiis on 11/30 @ 19:48 writes]:
I disagree with the notion that this isn't meant to be an instakill. It is
absolutely an instakill, even if the actual instakilling isn't at the 50% mana
threshold, with Wiccan, Moon and Night all designed towards achieving the
condition for this skill.
---[Synkarin on 11/30 @ 23:10 writes]:
Toading is certainly the kill method, but it's a 'instakill' in the strictest
sense. There isn't really any point in arguing those semantics. It's been
reported before to have the toader get the credit for the kill, and they went
with another solution (report 808). I support solution 2 and 3. It keeps the
flavour of the skill while solving the problem
---[Xenthos on 12/1 @ 00:23 writes]:
Falmiis: You can "disagree with the notion" all you want, but that's literally
been exactly what they have said to us over the years. I mean, it's not like
Toadcurse hasn't functioned like this since the game came out, and this *exact
same problem* has been submitted to them probably twenty or more times by now.
The reason it still functions this way is because Toadcurse is not designed to
be an instakill (just like Inquisition is not an instakill). It is an ability
that puts the target in the position to be murdered. Of these, I prefer
solution 3 still.
---[Shuyin on 12/1 @ 06:38 writes]:
Solution 2 or 3, but this has been envoyed before.
---[Enyalida on 12/1 @ 15:17 writes]:
What is the rationale behind keeping a non-direct instakill like toad in place
when other classes have direct instakills under the same (or similar)
conditions, like Absolve? I think that historically the power of succumb and
access to aeonlocks that classes like Celestines didn't have was the reason...
but those aren't really the case anymore. In other words, the original design on
a class like Wiccan that is so old isn't necessarily very important. Any of the
solutions would be fine, I very much doubt any of them would dramatically change
Wiccan strategies or kills while neatly solving the problem posed.
---[Xenthos on 12/1 @ 22:19 writes]:
The official rationale is that *dancers tend to have more passive drain, so it's
easier to hit 50%. I think that is still the case, what with fae, pooka, etc.
It was never about the active mana draining skills, it was about combining their
passive additions on top of that.
---[Synkarin on 12/1 @ 23:58 writes]:
MD's are still the stronger mana draining class, especially with new succumb.
---[Wobou on 12/2 @ 14:57 writes]:
Due to the ramp up of stun, toadcurse is definitely an instakill for all
practical purposes. Previously you could actually run away for a bit (and
hilariously at one point you could climb trees as a toad) but I think that's
practically impossible now even solo. I don't think inquisition is a valid
comparison because you can't literally newbie kick someone to death who has been
inquisitioned, you actually need another loaded instakill (like soulless) to do
it. All that being said the only way I can think of to resolve the kill credit
concern, in a way which has not been reported and rejected before, would be to
actually nerf the skill a bit. You could make stomp a delayed action where
wiccans have less of a delay and allow a successful toadcurse to automatically
begin that delayed stomp. Then it would be impossible for someone else to
trigger stomp and get the kill first, the toadcurser would always receive credit
unless the delay was made too long and the enemy team would get an opportunity
to kiss the toad. Right now even if someone did want to kiss the toad they are
racing against a lot of stomp triggers to do so.
---[Lerad on 12/3 @ 03:27 writes]:
Toad definitely has been buffed over the years due to the repeated (and
justified, I feel) complaints by toaders. If the admin aren't amenable to
solutions 1 or 3 (1 because they rather it still have the current mechanics of
possibly toad-hopping away, or 3 because it can't be coded etc), then 2 is
actually a very good idea that is something new from what previous reports have
suggested. I support any of the three solutions, either way.
---[Synkarin on 12/3 @ 14:41 writes]:
If solution 2 ends up being accepted, maybe the stun from being toaded should be
removed all together from the 50% level. This way you can still toad, but
there's a definitey advantage to doing further drain.
---[Shedrin on 12/3 @ 15:20 writes]:
I prefer keeping Toad as is and just giving kill credit to the Wiccan. It's the
simplest and most direct solution. If Toad mechanics are an issue to be
addressed, then I'd like to see an edit of the problem statement.
---[Enyalida on 12/6 @ 03:33 writes]:
I don't think it really makes a functional difference (as noted by others)
whether or not it kills you instantly or damn near always kills you 3s later. If
it's a big issue, go with solution 3 plus the "enhanced" true instakill at a
more difficult threshold for bonus points.
---[Tremula on 12/18 @ 16:13 writes]:
Full support for solution 3, since I've said it nearly every time it's come up
in outside discussion and somehow missed this report coming up to say it again.