124303-want-more-players-lfrduty-finder-page-7

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Exactly what about this game wasn't delivered as advertised?  It's precisely what they were selling. What exactly were you and these... "friends"... expecting? Who is at fault?
The problem, once again, is the players. The expectations they build in their own minds, the unwillingness to play the game for fun and reduce it to efficiency of filling up a progress bar and the entitled attitude will make games like WildStar no longer possible in the future. 
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Games like Wildstar--where the developers try to force the majority of their playerbase into a playstyle that does not match their preferences--are already no longer possible, as this game's population woes should make clear to all but the most delusional among its fans.
...
 
The problem was the developers who wrote a bunch of checks they weren't HARDCORE enough to cash.
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By the way, since you asked what my friends (Nice touch with the ..."quotes"... btw. Sneer moar, plz.) were expecting? There were many things promised but not delivered, but the most obvious and high-profile of them was monthly updates to justify a monthly subscription fee and provide a constant stream of new content to hold their interest. So when you ask who is at fault for overblown expectations, the problem is not the players who simply acted based on what they were told. The problem was the developers who wrote a bunch of checks they weren't badass enough to cash.
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1. Preach it, Yas. "Delusional" sums up quite a few of the regulars around here. I still am amazed that folks who have been here since launch, who watched the bottom fall out and the population dwindle to almost nothing, can sit there and still argue that things are fine the way they are and nothing should be changed. Why are people coming back? Why are new players sticking around? BECAUSE IT'S NOT THE SAME GAME THAT LAUNCHED. The rough edges are being smoothed out, the grindy bits are being (ahem) ground down and the walls (inadvertent and intentional ones) are being knocked down. For the first time since Month Two, I saw more than a dozen players in the starter zones this weekend. That's not because everything was fine before. It's because the game has become more accessible and player-friendly.
 
2. Fixt. ;)
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As has been pointed out many times, the subscription has no tie to commitment of content schedule. Yet another "fact" that players have fabricated in their minds.
 
I'd be super curious to know what content these friends left on the table before moving on to the greener pastures in their mind. They want more WildStar content when they're not even consuming that which is available?
 
Seems like a player problem to me.
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The difference, I suspect, is I make my own success. I don't whine about how there's not enough players or that I can't "queue" for something. There are *plenty* of players out there to do every activity in the game. But once again, you expect to sit back and have it all come to you, playing a multi-player game as an antisocial solo player. It will never work that way. Once again, this is a player problem. Not a game problem.
 
It's very much the same game that launched, save for a few minor tweaks to itemization. Your anecdotal assessment of the "starter zone" is wholly irrelevant. The game will never wholesale change to satisfy those that left, so it's foolish to even worry about them. Success is not going to come from players who left; it's going to come from players who haven't yet played. And of course keeping the game that current players love.
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Irrelevant because you can't deny that people are coming back, not just new players. I left. I came back. My friends left. They are coming back. Tell me again how "irrelevant" that is? How only "new players" will make this game succeed?
 
Oh, that's right. You can't. Because you are wrong - as usual.
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If you want to ignore what this game's own development team said, go for it. That is indeed a player problem, although I don't think you meant that phrase to be quite as ironically appropriate as it turns out to be.
 
As for what content they left on the table? It was all... #hardcore.
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It's a fool's errand to court previous players.
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It's the same game. Everything is still there that you hated. You're having a "second chance" moment, just like the one that leads to reconciling of bad relationships. Things haven't changed my friend.
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Let me try and position my stance a bit differently.
 
I am a WildStar fan. I have been playing since late 2012. I will be a subscriber until whenever they turn the servers off.
 
I also dig other WildStar fans, and will do anything to help them have a better experience.
 
But the vibe I get here (not in the game, mind you) is that many posters here are using it as an opportunity to project their larger dissatisfaction with MMORPGs in general to try and somehow change the game. That is what I don't agree with.
 
At this point, there are so many games out there that instead of hanging around like a masochist, they should move on. Games cater to every style and level of dedication.
 
But if you like the game enough to be here, then try and play it for how it was designed. Give feedback, but don't dismiss what they developers did as "wrong" because thy built exactly what they wanted.
 
So jump in and embrace it, or climb out of the pool. The players that are here want more of what's here. And that will never be compatible with returning players who want less of what WildStar is.
 
That's my philosophy.	
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This just isn't true. I'm seeing a lot of previous players come back and enjoy the game. I actually think the core of the game is much the same, but a lot of the "tweaks" they've done were big wins for people that left.
 
Seeing more people jump into raids and have a great time. Making the gear progression and making the rune system less frustrating has helped a lot, it seems.
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That's my philosophy.
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Theres no forcing needed, and there shouldn't be. High level players can group up with low level players and they both help each other. Simple as that.
 
It's like this basic concept is so foreign, today's players can't even visualize socialization as an option.
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It's the same game. Everything is still there that you hated. You're having a "second chance" moment, just like the one that leads to reconciling of bad relationships. Things haven't changed my friend. You're going to hate it just as much as before, and if you don't it's only because you're still trying to convince yourself since you really *want* to like the game. But just never stick it out.
 
It's a fool's errand to court previous players. They're going to leave again. New players is where the lion's share of long-term players will come from.
 
Let me add... the refinements they are doing would *not be possible* in any game without the benefit of large data provided by a large player base. Every MMO is objectively "better" a year after release. The minor pain points and wrinkles are ironed out. But the games do not wholesale change.
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What is it those players are finding different, really? Like you say, the core is the same. I just don't see a single thing that would have been a catalyst to leaving that has been changed to bring people back. I mean, were people really quitting over a random stat on loot?
 
Even if that's the case, it isn't apparent until you're well into progression. How can those players even know the change has positively expected their experience without playing for at least a month?
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So really, I don't know why we aren't focusing on ways that we can make the current GA more accessible in its current format than have crazy arguments about the heart of the MMO player.
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Well the leveling person don't gain anything with partying up and the level 50 player is handicapping himself instead of 2 minutes killing the same mob you will spend 10 minutes killing the same mob and I don't believe many are waiting for another grind.
Also the leveling person needs to stay close to you for you to be leveled down, so you need to take him along on your 30 minute killing spree... good luck with that ;)
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So last night I managed to get my wife and I into an alt GA raid with a DS guild. It was an opportunity for my wife to experience raiding since she works on nights I raid (or rather, I raid on nights she works!).
 
For she and I, it was probably something like what a LFR raid might be. It was fun, and we got gear, but it wasn't nearly as thrilling as doing it progression style. Interestingly enough, x-89 still posed something of a challenge when a few mistakes were made, and it continues to be a fun fight even when you outgear it (as a group). It was also cool that I, as a lowly warrior with 2800 AP, was able to contribute meaningful DPS to the fight because I was good at the mechanics. Kuralak was less interesting since they got the boss down before the 8 egg phase, which basically trivializes everything challenging about the fight (but I don't really miss it. 8 egg isn't near as "fun" as x-89). We even had a few wipes on trash and didn't one shot all the bosses.
 
This made me really value my normal raid, where we are appropriately geared and have to work out the strats. I really was glad I got to go, and will certainly do so again if I get the opportunity, but progression style is more fun that "touring".
 
But I think this just firms up my perspective, that changing the lockouts and possibly adding something like save points would be far better for getting casuals with a limited ability to schedule into GA than changing the fight mechanics would.	
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What is it those players are finding different, really? Like you say, the core is the same. I just don't see a single thing that would have been a catalyst to leaving that has been changed to bring people back. I mean, were people really quitting over a random stat on loot?
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This is the essence of everything I am saying is wrong with MMO players these days :)
 
The leveling person can just help out, no? And chances are some of the mobs he's killing will be on his list, too. And can the high-level player not worry so much about efficient and 'getting a task done' and maybe concentrate of fun and socialization for a change? Stick around and help the lowbie for a while, who just helped you by allowing you to mentor down.
 
That's all I'm saying... we need to change our perspective! (back to how it once was!)
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Drop 4 did enough for that already, the dungeons are dropping quite a lot of good gear now and once you kill x89 you have access to raid gear through the glory vendor.
 
But I would still just really like that the power creep is a lot lower, if they would lower the power creep then the end content levels out more. Instead they decide to throw out gear like candy :(
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It's not a problem of these days ;)
For the rest it comes to game design, if you need to kill 150 mobs to get tier 3 contract then of course I'll to that the efficient way.
I doubt 10 years ago someone would happily wander around you for 1,5 hours just for this... and of course you would be looking for the easiest way to kill them.
 
If someone asks you if you can buy a cola from the store then you go to the nearest store to get it, buy it and then come back.
You are not going to talk to people on the street and ask them to come with you to buy the cola and then in the supermarket you are going to discuss with everyone whether to buy Pepsi or Coca Cola.
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2) I was trying to come up with ways that people with 30-60 minutes at a time might be able to get a feel for the content. To me that is probably taking the GA bosses, putting them in a box, and then giving out pretty much the same loot as GA minus the set piece tokens. Has to be implemented after individual loot lockouts so that if they can recieve loot for the boss in a box they can't for a regular GA. You run one or you run the other. This is probably a long way off and may never happen, but it is probably the best way for people with limited time to see the content
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I don't think a boss-in-a-box idea is a good fit for GA :(  I really think you'd lose the flow of the instance. But breaking it into chunks seems reasonable. Each chunk could be finished in two hours after people get a lot of time and practice in on it to the point they are able to one shot the bosses. Before that point, they'd still be able to make progress every week gear wise by getting down minis and one boss.
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You know, they'd probably just be better off loot-locking to the player and just placing a manual boss reset on the raids with a minimum cooldown, rather than a regulated reset.  That way, if it takes a guild three weeks to run a full GA at one day a week, they still can.
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This is a fantastic idea. Why don't you created games again? I would totally play your game . . .
 
The only question would be who "owns" the instance if it's loot-locked to a player. Since players would be able to jump between instances once loot-locking become a thing.
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Hey Guys,
 
I am currently downloading the game and browsing the forums to get an idea what the community is like and I thought I'd chime in.
 
I used to be a harcore WoW player and raided alot. When I first started there was no LFG, let alone LFR. I'm a little shy but back then you had to socialize and be somewhat competent to get content done and I ended up making alot of friends and acquaintances as well as knowing my class and how to do things. 
 
It also helped make the community what it was. Forums used to be fun because you knew who everyone was through personal experience.
 
WoW has died for me and while there are many factors including just plain getting older and out of touch and just sick of the same old game, I feel like WoW began to die for me once LFG came into play. People didn't need to know anyone and so the game became alot less social, dungeons became a solo face smash same day different 4 random people event often filled with pricks who had no patience for anyone new who didn't know how to faceroll through content in 15 minutes to get their daily tokens, and the community for all intent and purposes began to wither as the only people who made a name for themselves were the trolls and the egotistical pvp players. 
 
For me once it got to a point where it wasn't necessary to actually get to know anyone, alot of the magic of MMO began to die. For all I cared it could just as well been a single player game and I guess that's kind of poisoned me personally because that's how I play most MMO's now, I don't socialize anymore, I've become completely out of practice and it's a scary prospect and I won't do it if I don't have to. 
 
I get the point of LFG/LFR, I really do. It makes the content accessible for those of us who just don't have the time and patience to grind away for these things. In fact these days it would probably benefit me as I doubt I would see the content on my own. But it's a double edged sword, while it will help more people see the content it will make the most important part of an MMO, being social, less important and over time less and less people will engage others and it will, IMO, become a desolate wasteland, even with many people standing around you. 
 
EDIT: I see there are 31 pages. I may have missed anything past page 1. My apologies. 	
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Thats why I like how GW2 did it since it's more a notification board where you can let others know you are looking for a party.
You still need to actively reach out and make contact, now it's all automatic and you end up with people with various skill, gear, patient and goals.	
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I get the point of LFG/LFR, I really do. It makes the content accessible for those of us who just don't have the time and patience to grind away for these things. In fact these days it would probably benefit me as I doubt I would see the content on my own. But it's a double edged sword, while it will help more people see the content it will make the most important part of an MMO, being social, less important and over time less and less people will engage others and it will, IMO, become a desolate wasteland, even with many people standing around you.
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That doesn't sound like a bad idea at all. The cross server bit was what really killed it. Your server rep just didn't matter anymore. 
 
Though I think the other thing, trying to look back and without rose-colored glasses, was deciding I had enough of questing, roaming into a big city to type lfg sm or something like that in 2 or 3 and getting to know the town, checking the AH at my leisure while I waited, and reading some of the inane crap people type in local and occasionally trying to get involved if I thought I had something witty for the moment. I mean, granted people will say I'm not playing the game at that moment and it's more of a glorified chat room but I was completely ok with that at the time. In fact, I think that is another problem for another thread, alot of MMO's allow and in some cases almost force people to burn right through the content.	
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Welcome :)
 
I agree that cross server and automated LFG/R is game changer and not in a good way, not being able to blacklist **** players, no sense of the community, ... and it promotes quiet go-go-go mentality that I strongly dislike.
 
But as far I understood OP idea was for the party/raid advertize tool, not automated jump in one. Just /lfg channel with a better interface (IIRC GW2 has something like that for example).
 
 
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Welcome :)
 
I agree that cross server and automated LFG/R is game changer and not in a good way, not being able to blacklist **** players, no sense of the community, ... and it promotes quiet go-go-go mentality that I strongly dislike.
 
But as far I understood OP idea was for the party/raid advertize tool, not automated jump in one. Just /lfg channel with a better interface (IIRC GW2 has something like that for example).
 
@VicVanMeter nice ideas, anything that can make raids/dungeons doable in chunks to accommodate people with more limited time. Keep the challenge level the same, just make it so we can run parts in some reasonable time (0.5-1hr max?) and continue where we left of next time. I don't want easy (boring) content, just one I can do in the limited time I can dedicate to game.
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The issue is to always understand your real problem, and to attack it.  It's the thing most video game designers themselves don't always do.  If people like the raids, but honestly don't have time to do them, then the problem is that the time isn't conforming to them.  LFR in other games sort of assumes that they need to make the whole raid somehow bite-sized, and in the end that affected difficulty and size (adversely, as many players who want a raid that conforms to their schedule didn't want to lose the epic feeling or challenge associated with them; they were simply sacrificed to meet the time constraint).  In the end, just adding a reset button to the raids seems like the most logical thing, it either needs to be on cooldown or players need to be loot-locked (possibly both).
 
Just seems better to give players the option to run the existing raids over a month or two, if necessary, or to restart on demand for gearing purposes, than to try to squeeze whole raids into the timeframe without making sacrifices.
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1) I don't think they throw out gear like candy. They have made it so that instead of running dung and praying for RNG that anything drops, you can run fewer dungeons and pray to RNG a bit less. The X89 glory gear is ok, but it will replaced by gear from GA relatively quickly, as almost all of the boss and miniboss drops from GA are better than the glory gear. But it is very helpful in filling out some small gaps in your gear
 
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Just a side-thought...I remember in WoW, you could extend your raid lockout. I really wish we could do that here. I don't know if my guild would make frequent use of it, but for those weeks where you ALMOST downed that boss, but it was your last raid night of the week so you'd have to wait to start all over again just to get back there and hopefully progress because no one's up for it on an off night, or if they are, they weren't prepared beforehand or focused enough simply because its an off-night and maybe their tired or burnt-out for the week? If you could extend the lock by a week, or even a few days, you could resume it on your regular raid night again without having to restart that progress you made. That could also help the guilds who don't raid very much each week, or who have RL problems come up, or time constraints, etc, they could progress further each lockout without feeling too pressured because they'd have more time.
 
As much as I loathe the idea of LFR I do like the idea of an advanced GroupFinder where people could post their availablity/role/etc, that way they could form a PuG or an existing raid group who needs to replace someone for whatever reason could more easily find someone if they don't have guildies on hand. I wouldn't mind loot locks of some sort.	
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*sigh*
 
and it was *THIS CLOSE* to falling off the first page.  :lol:	
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I do like the idea of an advanced GroupFinder where people could post their availablity/role/etc, that way they could form a PuG or an existing raid group who needs to replace someone for whatever reason could more easily find someone if they don't have guildies on hand.
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As much as I loathe the idea of LFR I do like the idea of an advanced GroupFinder where people could post their availablity/role/etc, that way they could form a PuG or an existing raid group who needs to replace someone for whatever reason could more easily find someone if they don't have guildies on hand. I wouldn't mind loot locks of some sort.
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Do you *ever* say anything that's got a basis in reality?
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Personally the best thing that ever happened in wow was the LFR tool. It made me actually see the content. Before that the longest I got was to clear MC....We failed time and time again with blackrock spire and the egg things....failed for 6 mnts +...it destroyed the guild i was in.
 
I'm playing Wildstar now because I like the moving combat and the way my toon and the world looks, not because its hard...because it is hard!!! I dont realy want to be challenged to the limit of my sanity..I'm 40+ years old...I'm done with hard challenges tbo. I just wanne have fun playing computer games, and watch my GF play with and take care of our son:)
 
So for me a LFR tool like they have in wow is perfect:) Yes..make it harder than the wow model...that one is just too easy. And also...make more difficult settings for the hardcore bunch.
 
So my vote goes for a LFR tool! automated ofc!	
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Personally the best thing that ever happened in wow was the LFR tool. It made me actually see the content. Before that the longest I got was to clear MC....We failed time and time again with blackrock spire and the egg things....failed for 6 mnts +...it destroyed the guild i was in.
 
I'm playing Wildstar now because I like the moving combat and the way my toon and the world looks, not because its hard...because it is hard!!! I dont realy want to be challenged to the limit of my sanity..I'm 40+ years old...I'm done with hard challenges tbo. I just wanne have fun playing computer games, and watch my GF play with and take care of our son:)
 
So for me a LFR tool like they have in wow is perfect:) Yes..make it harder than the wow model...that one is just too easy. And also...make more difficult settings for the hardcore bunch.
 
So my vote goes for a LFR tool! automated ofc!
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Also "harder" LFR doesn't work. For it to succeed in delivering content to those who would not otherwise see it, it has to be no more than 'going through the motions.' In WildStar, that would mean removing so many mechanics that any essence of what makes it WildStar would be lost. And that really isn't what the raiding game is about. The type of gameplay WildStar raiding provides requires coordination and communication that just will not happen with randomly-matched strangers. Even if the fights are dumbed down to almost nothing.
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			x-89 is quite okay, Kuralak is a different story because 1 person with the egg dies then it's a wipe, not sure to call that a challenge or a bad mechanic so to say.	
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			Someone may have said this already, but people on Exile side do PUG GA's all the time, and this is perfectly visible to anyone in the lfg channel. It's not like there's some kind of impossible barrier for raiding if you aren't in a big guild.Queues suck for group-forming, other than for their extreme convenience. They are faceless and mechanical and they don't lead to the development of personal relationships in the way that traditional grouping does. Queues are a frozen microwave dinner, player-formed groups are a homecooked meal!And really, I'm starting to realize more and more lately that I love WildStar exactly because it feels like an oldschool MMO in so many ways. People are friendly and communicative and there's an actual community going on. It's the opposite of Destiny, which I played a lot lately and which has basically no ingame community at all, and the opposite of what WoW has become, where, like ituhata said, you don't need to even know anybody to play the game. Let's keep WildStar social and oldschool! The community is the only thing that really makes games like this worthwhile, in the end.	
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x-89 is quite okay, Kuralak is a different story because 1 person with the egg dies then it's a wipe, not sure to call that a challenge or a bad mechanic so to say.
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			They can ofc make a LFR be harder then the current LFR in wow eg. In MOP LFR was pretty hard imo. And not just in my oppinion...casue we wiped ALOT in mop LFR. And as ppl say..i'm sure carabinos can make raid just a tad bit more forgiving for LFR and still keep the soul of combat. I have pugged Dungeons in wildstar 8-10 times. The ONE time we wiped and ended up  quitting was  With a guild Group ;) Dont underestimate ppl skills in pugs. 1-2 skilled players in a pug can easily carry the rest:)	
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Really? You just can't think of anything? I can think of several ways that this could get a lot more forgiving, all of which preserve the core mechanic of the 2-fold increase in egg number with each successive round and the need to interrupt the eggs.
 
1. The damage done by the egg could be reduced, giving the group more time to respond until the person with the egg dies or AoE wipes the raid.
2. The DoT caused by the infection could be reduced, reducing the odds of losing DPS.
3. The damage buff caused by infection could be increased, increasing total DPS.
4. The time between egg phases could be increased so that the total DPS before the 16 egg phase doesn't have to be as high.
 
Not one of these ideas even requires a change to anything but damage or when timers/triggers go off. I can come up with more forgiving tweaks, but frankly those seem like they'd be most true to the intended encounter.
 
Would these simply not work to reduce the difficulty and need for perfect execution for some reason that isn't immediately apparent just from watching the guides?
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Really? You just can't think of anything? I can think of several ways that this could get a lot more forgiving, all of which preserve the core mechanic of the 2-fold increase in egg number with each successive round and the need to interrupt the eggs.
 
1. The damage done by the egg could be reduced, giving the group more time to respond until the person with the egg dies or AoE wipes the raid.
2. The DoT caused by the infection could be reduced, reducing the odds of losing DPS.
3. The damage buff caused by infection could be increased, increasing total DPS.
4. The time between egg phases could be increased so that the total DPS before the 16 egg phase doesn't have to be as high.
 
Not one of these ideas even requires a change to anything but damage or when timers/triggers go off. I can come up with more forgiving tweaks, but frankly those seem like they'd be most true to the intended encounter.
 
Would these simply not work to reduce the difficulty and need for perfect execution for some reason that isn't immediately apparent just from watching the guides?
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LFR definitely keeps people playing.
 
I'll use the anecdotal example of my brother. This guy was the hardcore of the hardcore back in WoW's early days. He was in a college where they couldn't go party all the time so his free evenings were spent raiding Molten Core with the rest of the crazies. He had all the tear and had cleared it all with his guild.
 
Fast forward about 8 years and he's no longer in college, he's a married father of two and a lawyer who travels on a regular basis. He still has that itch though, so in his extremely limited free evening time he loves running LFR to see the story and experience some of the mechanics for the new raids. He'll do it over and over too, because that's what he's always liked to do. If there wasn't LFR he wouldn't be raiding, not because he's a care bear scrublord, but because he just can't do it anymore. What he can do is spend his not inconsequential disposable income on game time and cash shop items for the game that gives him a way to end joy his longtime hobby and still meet the demands of his life.
 
So I think LFR is great, providing that it can be broken into chunks or "wings" that can be completed in 30-45 mins. Once you complete that wing you're locked out for the week, which prevents people from farming easy bosses for loot and let's them have a sense of accomplishment as they knock out a wing each evening. 
 
And on top of that, LFR will increase the number of people in the "real" raids as they get the confidence and slight gear upgrades they need to hang in the big leagues.
 
Edit: typed this on my phone. Some typos exist.	
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Kuralak is trivially easy to nerf. Just increase the time between eggs. Never mind that the 8 egg phase IS the fight. But you could keep everything as is and just increase the timer and pugs would get it down no problem.
 
I think x-89 is the bigger example of how you rally can't make it easier without losing the soul of the fight.	
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haha, I'm just imagining the stacked eggs and the resulting suicides from greedy DPS that aren't communicating or thinking. I guess they'd have to get rid of that too. Maybe add in some rainbows and foamy nerf swords for warriors so they can feel extra special.
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Ohhhh. Well, of course I can't really address your reason for wiping "90% of the time" since you didn't actually identify it. And I'll agree that it would be terrible to reduce the stringency of a DPS check in a LFR version of the first floor, and then send the LFR group up to GA's unmodified 2nd floor. No question, that would really be poor design.
 
I'm pretty sure there's a solution for it, though. It'd probably involve something like a LFR version of the second floor attached to the LFR version of the first floor.
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I did, you responded to that and you're now responding to the responce to that. If i count your posts it's now 4 comments back. Try to keep up :)
 
With Kuralak you can get a total wipe if 1 person with the egg buff dies.
That's a good thing during the egg phase it's part of the game but if the person dies in between then the whole timing of that egg will be off and it will spread through the raid wiping everyone.
For orginize groups this isn't really the deal breaker but with pugs i can easily see this the reason to stop the raid after several of such wipes because it can get frusterating.
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			But like you say this takes a planning, which is well... undoable with a pug group from a looking for raid finder, that is what we are talking about here ;)	
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So in other news, if any of the more casual Entity Exile players who would like to see GA are interested, a few friends and I are going to be throwing together a semi-pug GA run this Thursday evening on our alts. We'll just be shooting for getting down a few minis and x-89, so send me a message if you are interested and have entry level GA gear (2,800ish AP). This will be a low stress, no-one-will-yell-at-you for anything, kind of run. We can teach you all the fights, so  you don't even need to read up ahead of time.
 
We're gonna pug whoever we need, but I'd love to bring in some folks who would like to raid but just can't commit to a dedicated team.	
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typically I hate looking for group functions, it ruins the sort of community that pops up around forming dungeon groups, same goes for raids.
Back in the day when Rift was on the decline, I was on a smaller server with one hardcore raiding guild, and one average raiding guild that I was in.  We typically had trouble getting the full 20 people, and had to go to a pvp guild to find someone capable and geared right in order to do it.
 
While that sounds lame, its far better than rolling the dice to get a random in a LFR system, and what it did was create a need to socialize with other groups of people to find others who might not normally have the option to raid.
 
Truth be told I think LFR works better with a huge playerbase than it does with a small playerbase.  Id hate to sit formed up with a bunch of people twiddling my thumbs while I wait for a LFR to pop...id much rather get the info "ok we just asked around and no one else is around to fill the raid, lets try to reschedule"
 
personal preference I guess	
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I did, you responded to that and you're now responding to the responce to that. If i count your posts it's now 4 comments back. Try to keep up :)
 
With Kuralak you can get a total wipe if 1 person with the egg buff dies.
That's a good thing during the egg phase it's part of the game but if the person dies in between then the whole timing of that egg will be off and it will spread through the raid wiping everyone.
For orginize groups this isn't really the deal breaker but with pugs i can easily see this the reason to stop the raid after several of such wipes because it can get frusterating.
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Are you seriously arguing that "/i Everyone make sure you've got an interrupt slotted, we'll need them from everyone in this fight" is too much planning for a PUG?
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Judging from interrupts in dungeons i would say yes... :/
The problem is that some might think that someone else will interrupt and then nobody interrupts, ect.
It's not the dot that kill them most of the time, unless they run to a pillar while they are low damage and there is no healer there.
It's often mistakes were you get hit by the small telegraphs that drop on you or stupidly not going to the pillars fast enough...
 
But yeah that is a bigger problem then the actual dps at this point, since you can get good gear from the glory vendor when you kill x89. 
 
 
Please don't take my word for it, try it with a pug group that isn't on voice and see how it goes, I'm really curious.
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It doesn't matter how many casual / fun / welfare etc game modes there are, as long as there are challenging hardcore modes as well.  That should be a pretty easy statement to understand.  Keep the hard version of raids that everyone praises Wildstar for having, but implement raids that challenge and capture the casual playerbase.
 
More players = more money = more content for everyone	
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It doesn't matter how many casual / fun / welfare etc game modes there are, as long as there are challenging hardcore modes as well.  That should be a pretty easy statement to understand.  Keep the hard version of raids that everyone praises Wildstar for having, but implement raids that challenge and capture the casual playerbase.
 
More players = more money = more content for everyone
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I would have thought so too, but apparently some people are having a hardcore time wrapping their heads around the idea.
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Maybe the new raid boss might be puggable.
But they shouldn't focus on making the other raids puggable, there are still a lot of bugs as it is now...
 
I personally would like to get harder 5 or 10 man instances that drop GA loot for example.	
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It's not what WildStar raids are about. Pretty simple story, actually.
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Care to elaborate?  Are you trying to say that Wildstar has appeal because the raids are exclusive?  If so, would you agree that a hardcore version of the same raid is more exclusive than a normal core version?  Would you say that exclusive raids aimed at <20% of the playerbase are the life blood and $$$ of a sub based game?
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WildStar raids are not meant to be accessible. They have never been pitched that way, they do not play that way, so I'm unsure exactly why there are some players in this thread who are talking like it's already going to be a thing.
 
Every other part of the game is for players that don't raid.
 
Making easier raids is not the key to success. I have a hard time believing the players who can't raid wouldn't prefer more of other types of content, rather than being forced into a raid dungeon for a terrible game experience just to grind or collect or increase item levels. . The casual players/whatever you want to call them are already told to "raid or die" in WoW and they hate it. They do LFR because it's the *only* thing they can do. It's the only path of progression. Yet they would;t set foot in a raid if they had a choice.
 
Carbine should focus on bringing content to these players, it just shouldn't be raids.
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You know, services that offer exclusive features, usually do so behind a paywall. 
 
You'll find numerous posts about how MMOs are about raiding--- well, that needs to be available for everyone.
You'll find numerous posts that talk about content, dev, and engineering time.  Why would developers spend time creating content for a small percentage of the playerbase when their real priority should be the majority of the playerbase first, then to grow the minorities?
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WildStar raids are not meant to be accessible. They have never been pitched that way, they do not play that way, so I'm unsure exactly why there are some players in this thread who are talking like it's already going to be a thing.
 
Every other part of the game is for players that don't raid.
 
Making easier raids is not the key to success. I have a hard time believing the players who can't raid wouldn't prefer more of other types of content, rather than being forced into a raid dungeon for a terrible game experience just to grind or collect or increase item levels. . The casual players/whatever you want to call them are already told to "raid or die" in WoW and they hate it. They do LFR because it's the *only* thing they can do. It's the only path of progression. Yet they would;t set foot in a raid if they had a choice.
 
Carbine should focus on bringing content to these players, it just shouldn't be raids.
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You seem a very out of touch person...
 
There are many people who can't raid who would love an LFR style experience, there are also people who DO raid who would like an LFR style experience. Casual players in WoW are not told "raid or die", they have access to brawlers guild, pet battles, challenge modes, PvP, Transmog runs, mount collecting, achievement hunting, toy collecting etc etc I have friends in WoW who have never been interested in raiding but have sunk countless hours into achievements and pet battles. timeless isle, isle of thunder style stuff.
 
Those same players also enjoy the odd bit of LFR to get the transmog and kill some bosses. I personally enjoyed LFR in WoW because I like going in on my alts to get some gear and learn new classes or just to go in with my Mythic gear and mess around.
 
If LFR was introduced in Wildstar, I wouldn't cry about it, it's just more content for me to do, I'd still want to raid the normal GA or DS and that experience would be unchanged and it absolutely wouldn't affect the people doing the harder modes. In WoW I raided Heroic/Mythic and never felt that LFR somehow changed that experience.
 
I also read somewhere a comment from you saying "you can't ask the game to change to suit you", and I say to that, why not? Why CAN'T people ask for the game to change to suit them? it's an MMO and the best thing about MMO's is that they evolve and move with the times. Hard raids are awesome, but the best thing about WoW at the moment is the fact that on any given night I can go on one of my alts and do some raiding, it doesn't matter if only 12 people in my guild are online, or we're all under geared, we can go and do some raiding because we have choices. 
 
More options and choice in Wildstar would NOT be a bad thing, if you don't like an area of a game, you're free to opt out and not partake.
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All of those activities - AND MORE - are available in WildStar for the non-raider.
 
I just cannot grasp why players who can't raid won't just play the game's wide selection of other content and continue to ask Carbine for more. For the players who 8want to raid* there is nothing stopping them... if they lack time, then they should prioritize. If they lack skill, they should practice.
 
Why is there this weird expectation that raids should be easy and accessible, when the clearest marketing message in all of WildStar is that they are not?
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Because people like choice, there is nothing wrong with more content. There is nothing wrong with multiple difficulty options for raids. Maybe it's too much for Carbine at the moment or they simply don't want to go that route, but people wanting more choice in the raiding content is understandable.
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Well I don't know what to say, proof is in the pudding I suppose, we'll see how it all pans out. Things are looking up anyway and I think GA will continue being more accessible so more people will get into raiding and see the content. 
 
I would personally love a flexible system over anything else, having raids scale if you don't have a full 20 man roster would be amazing, best thing WoW implemented in a long time. I still don't think something resembling LFR would be detrimental to the health of the game but I doubt Carbine will introduce it anyway.	
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You should deviate your understanding of the word raids to simply group content.
 
People want to do group content.  If it's 3man, 5man, 10m, 20m or 40m, people want to do group content.  That thing you're talking about ?  40 people scheduling together to tackle tough bosses etc, --- that's gone from wildstar.  You're looking at 20m, because either the 40m Wildstar raids weren't good enough, or they weren't accessible.
 
So, people want to do group content.  Some people enjoy Scorchwing, whose group size to challenge ranges from 10-100 man.  That's not the problem.  You could put a boss out there today that could be killed once a week, in a purely pvp flagged zone, that requires 100 people, and you'd have people show up for it.  That's not the roster boss. That's group content.
 
Look, I love large group content.  I love the idea of grouping with 19 other people and tackling bosses.  I don't love the idea of turning it into a part time job.
Other people do too.
 
People love group content.  They love protostar games.  They love doing the gear grind in dungeons.  They want to continue the vertical gear progression into GA.  That's why there are so many pug GAs now.  People like doing group content. They don't love the negative aspects of it.
 
Wildstar may have been sold on hardcore raids with 40 members and extreme difficulty--- but ultimately that failed.  Now we're moving forward with a new Wildstar, that captures the market share of players that like the good things that Wildstar has to offer.	
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You should deviate your understanding of the word raids to simply group content.
 
People want to do group content.  If it's 3man, 5man, 10m, 20m or 40m, people want to do group content.  That thing you're talking about ?  40 people scheduling together to tackle tough bosses etc, --- that's gone from wildstar.  You're looking at 20m, because either the 40m Wildstar raids weren't good enough, or they weren't accessible.
 
So, people want to do group content.  Some people enjoy Scorchwing, whose group size to challenge ranges from 10-100 man.  That's not the problem.  You could put a boss out there today that could be killed once a week, in a purely pvp flagged zone, that requires 100 people, and you'd have people show up for it.  That's not the roster boss. That's group content.
 
Look, I love large group content.  I love the idea of grouping with 19 other people and tackling bosses.  I don't love the idea of turning it into a part time job.
Other people do too.
 
People love group content.  They love protostar games.  They love doing the gear grind in dungeons.  They want to continue the vertical gear progression into GA.  That's why there are so many pug GAs now.  People like doing group content. They don't love the negative aspects of it.
 
Wildstar may have been sold on hardcore raids with 40 members and extreme difficulty--- but ultimately that failed.  Now we're moving forward with a new Wildstar, that captures the market share of players that like the good things that Wildstar has to offer.
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			well.... 40 man did kinda fail right?	
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well.... 40 man did kinda fail right?
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well.... 40 man did kinda fail right?
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You're making some crazy leaps of logic here... nothing failed.
 
They always talked about finding the sweet spot in raid size, and they always said they would adjust it if they felt it was necessary. Nothing failed. The raider are as hard as they ever were. Nothing failed.
 
The 20 man raids are the raids of WildStar now, and should retain their inaccessibility. Players should want to strive to beat them. Don't give players easier versions of this content because it will diminish the value of the gameplay and sense of satisfaction they get when overcoming the objectives as designed. As Jeremy said, there has to be things that seem unattainable to the players.
 
And remember, nothing failed.
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From my perspective, it succeeded beyond wildest expectations. A 40 man raid that had all but the most dedicated crying about it, and in the end only a select few cleared. It will go down as the most epic raid content in the history of MMOs. I never got to clear it, by the way... and I LOVE that.
 
But Carbine didn't feel like it was achieving all of their goals, so they re-tuned for 20 players. It's as simple as that.
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It does have award-winning music!  :wub:
 
Took my Dommie to Lightreach Mission today just to hear the Vigilant Church theme in the atmosphere it was made for. So full of win, that music.  :)	
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It does have award-winning music!  :wub:
 
Took my Dommie to Lightreach Mission today just to hear the Vigilant Church theme in the atmosphere it was made for. So full of win, that music.  :)
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It doesn't matter how many casual / fun / welfare etc game modes there are, as long as there are challenging hardcore modes as well. That should be a pretty easy statement to understand. Keep the hard version of raids that everyone praises Wildstar for having, but implement raids that challenge and capture the casual playerbase.
 
More players = more money = more content for everyone
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Except they don't, which is why most modern mmos other than WildStar are or have implemented it.
 
We've had this discussion a ton of times; obviously there's always going to be the special snowflakes and entitled players who believe that only they should be able to do raids. That type of player is not the kind of player that can sustain an mmo though. Anyway WS has bigger problems at the moment like the inability to do dungeons/pvp before 50.
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He's saying that WildStar was marketed as #hardcore and anything else is not what CS advertised the game as before launch and therefore shouldn't be done. There are some variations on that theme but usually that's how the broken record repeats.
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I don't know anyone who actually enjoys LFR in WoW.  Sure people get to see the raid, but it's basically a giant zergfest.
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No, the raids were marked as hardcore.
 
And every person in here bitching that they can't do them and need easier versions? They bought the game anyway, and are now asking for the raids to change.
 
I will fight that idea to the very end. There's simply no reason to facilitate easier raiding.
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Fortunately for the rest of us, CS isn't in your camp anymore. It's hard to argue against objective reality when it's staring you right in the P&L statement.
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Exactly. No one enjoys it. It's simply a test of their endurance so they can get their upgrades without having to do anything.
 
What do they need these upgrades for then, you ask? I have no idea.
 
They are zombies on a treadmill and there is no one that enjoys the LFR gameplay experience.
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And can I ask why you bought the game, and now want a core feature changed to suit you?
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It turns out that people can ask for accessible raids to be introduced without asking that inaccessible raids be removed, so your question is really based on a logical fallacy. But then this isn't the first--or even the tenth--time this has been pointed out to you, and it doesn't appear to have changed your reasoning or arguments one bit.
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... and development time for your niche raids that only capture a tiny portion of the MMO market share eat into the development time for PvP that I so desire.
 
It's unfortunate that we can't all have what we want-- but the easiest way to get $$ and development time for our preferred way to play, is to hope Carbine grows in size, and hires the developers needed to meet the expectations of all players.
 
In order for us to have our niche game modes--- we need game modes for everyone.
 
More players = more money = more good things for the select
 
....
 
 
These things are more or less fundamentals	
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... and development time for your niche raids that only capture a tiny portion of the MMO market share eat into the development time for PvP that I so desire.
 
It's unfortunate that we can't all have what we want-- but the easiest way to get $$ and development time for our preferred way to play, is to hope Carbine grows in size, and hires the developers needed to meet the expectations of all players.
 
In order for us to have our niche game modes--- we need game modes for everyone.
 
More players = more money = more good things for the select
 
....
 
 
These things are more or less fundamentals
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People generally do not know what they like or what's actually good for them... they have to be lead.
This is an interview w/ Jeremy Gaffney from way... well, alpha. This explains some of the reasons why it's not a good idea and Carbine wasn't pursuing accessible raids.
http://www.zam.com/story.html?story=32326
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This reminds me of Economics 101 class where that one kid argues apple business strategy with the other kid that argues microsoft strategy.
 
Except that the Apple kid fails to realize offering the things he does, costs about 2-3x more.  
 
Perhaps they should offer a subscription model of 100$ a month, so that the raiders can pay for their small share of content, instead of everyone else subsidizing their development time.	
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Your argument against implementing LFR goes 2 ways:
 
How creating a new raid affects me and others like me:
- Development time for tuning and re-scripting the raids
- Development time for creating new base pop and boss mechanics
- Development time for creating new maps
- Development time for changing class skills based on how effective they are in the new raid (not always necessary)
- Development time for new loot
- Breakdown of social interaction between players
 
But.. lets ignore that.	
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			Heck, we should just require 1 CREDD per week to enter datascape at its current difficulty.	
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Huh... I guess I'm no one... I enjoy both LFR (not WoW, never tried that one, but SW:TOR's version) and raiding with a guild team in progression...
 
My mom always told me I'm someone... MY WHOLE LIFE IS A LIE. 
 
/end sarcasm
 
I will fight you to the very end to introduce accessible raiding (note: accessible, not easy). Just because the game was marketed one way, does not mean that they cannot change the way they want to go forward. I don't want to see the raids dumbed down, I've experienced them and they are amazing. I am bummed I never got to at least TRY 40 man DS, but I do think that some form of accessible raiding should be introduced.
 
How that comes around (and even if), is something that I absolutely believe in Timetravel & co. to be able to come up with without compromising the difficulty and challenge (and beauty) that is GA/DS at this time. Or the gear distribution/powerlevel.
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What swtor has isn't the LFR that is being referred to.  Not even close.  That is just a group finder, and those raids are the same raids that everyone else has access to...no difference in difficulty.  WoW's LFR is an extremely watered down version of regular raids which are so faceroll that half the raid is usually afk the whole time.  I'm not even kidding.  It's that bad, and this is why he is against it.  I'll admit that he comes across as an elitist, but I don't think he's wrong about this.  LFR is completely contradictory to everything that this game was designed around.  You create an easier raid mode and it just starts a never-ending cycle of people demanding easier content.
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Notice in my posts I've never said to make an easier version of this raid, just more accessible. I have repeatedly said that the current version of GA/DS remain as is and the raiding scene in WS be made more accessible by doing:
a "training raid"	adding the raid to the current LFG	breaking down the current raids to bite sized 45 minute queue-able wings (i.e all base pop till X-89, including X-89) with a weekly lockout	completely new instances that are easier than DS/GA but larger than dungeons and maybe harder than SSM/UPG
I'm all for creating contents in BOTH directions, below DS/GA and above DS/GA. In time with gear and power creep, GA WILL be puggable as DPS, mitigation, and heals will allow people to completely trivialize mechanics. I don't see the reasoning against points 2/3 considering this. I mean, even now with half a raid in DS gear, I think that certain DPS checks can be made with pugs. 
 
And again, just because the original view/stated agenda/marketing strategy was around #hardcore #timesink #RNG #getaguildorgetout doesn't mean that it cannot change when it's found that it's a view that is financially unsustainable.
 
Also to be perfectly honest, who cares if people want easier content. I mean, really, does the existence of the easier fictional raid that may come  somehow detract from GA/DS? So long as the gear isn't "better" than either of those instances, no no it doesn't. So long as CS still creates challenging content for those who want to do it, why does it matter if people ask for easy stuff too. Easy is in the eye of the beholder, what I find easy you may find extremely difficult and vice versa.
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