115222-will-they-dumb-down-combatbuff-or-nerfchange-things-to-balance-l2p-issues

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Because ONLY THAT would ever make me question leaving this game... :( some buddies have pointed out a few OP!!! IMBA /QQ and other various threads, commenting how similar things can (and have elsewhere) lead to sugar coating and deluding very intricate, unique and sometimes 'vital' things in order to appeal to a broader base of players (understandable :/)  and though some call it out for what it is, a few always seemed to get behind some of these before someone points out that it isn't a matter of balance, but rather one of knowledge, experience of class and practice/application.  i would be SO let down if they took away such a high skill potential/ involved system just to bring about a handicap for people that either wont learn their class (as well as others and how they interact), or wont (un)learn another game IE - Not letting go of say, Tab Target, spam AOE / ZERG obj and "hypothetically" QQ say because a tank got a flag/mask or capped x through EVERYTHING despite the complete lack of focus on said tank's  Squish Mc Healz Allday / shadow ..... or on the flipside of this hypothetically possible goup getting ROLLED by OP OP OP DPS/ MOBILITY because they need more practice with LOS and skill shots/ none of the above.. while  Squish Mc,HealsAllday and his/her buddies Mr.BestKeysBeBound and Dr. DirectionalDashDoneDodged  Laugh and then Cry, shaking their heads at those lost in the past/or just honestly not quite used to being out of shallow waters (~simple combat sys/mechanics) while they re queue for another victory under Colonel. Coordination.
 
i have faith in the devs to be able to call out or ignore "the player who cried buff/nerf" but it has been pointed out to me a good handful of times as well and ive seen other deep and or demanding games have particular core mechanics/ things fundamentally change, and not always for the better. (to say the least) i am just really happy to finally be playing something that for the most part, has done a great job putting Ol' Auto aim/cast/miss/dodge etc.. to rest and not with just a gimmick cross hair and shoddy "dodge" ability.  of course, if something IS skewed or screwed, change it when needed, replace (IF WE MUST) but just don't fix (ask people to fix) what isn't broken... i guess -  and dont *cupcake* about losing because of a slow car, if you havn't gotten past 3rd gear yet :/ (or when you're trying to race a Formula 1 in a minivan....)
 
does anyone else have experience first hand at things like this going down in something they were invested in? (im not necessarily strictly demanding WS only) but i wish more people would take the time to try and solve their problems with the tools at hand (mechanics/spells/skill "LIMITATIONS of your character AND whatever your fighting") rather than just giving up when their bread and butter flops face down and asking the Devs for a bigger, better, "tool" - i win buff/skill. overcoming challenges and obstacles, ESPECIALLY when you are SUPPOSED to be at a disadvantage is part of the reason this game stands apart. i really hope it stays that way, and hope more still that im not speaking for just myself. but i would like opinions similar as well as opposed, i just would like to get some outside imput on whats going on and what isn't (other than dated forums)  and also this is for PVE and PVP alike, more just the game as a whole.
 
welp, thanks for your time, and anything added
 
pleasant nights,
 
-Vico	
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			I tried to follow your thoughts but after reading all of this I have no idea what you want.	
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It's been said time and time again that Carbine will not nerf the content. They believe that the content ( difficulty wise) is in a great place and just needs bugfixing ( which should be in drop 3 ) . Their belief is that as we get better and new content comes out, we will slowly outgear the difficulty due to better content being out etc.
 
This is the last thing you need to be worrying about, Cupcake! :). 	
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Age of Conan has very similar combat mechanics to WS with AOC having combo steps and you needs to aim combo finished to deal damage (its actually harder than WS, at least in pvp). 
 
However in 2008 this system was much more advanced and complex (active blocking and shielding, more combo steps). Funcom dumbed down the mechanics in order to make the game more accessible. THis backfired pretty hard on the game. Devs took it even so far that the Ranger class got his combo system removed so it became classic tab target + push button class. It made a lot of people rage-quit or retire their rangers. Only broken systems should be re-worked, if its ain't broken don't fix it. 	
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			from what i see or understand from this post you want carbine nerf all the content/fighting mecanics etc... cause you cant handle it? im sure they wont nerf a content or mecanic cause a few bunch cant handle it and if they nerf it that will make rage quit a lot of players  sorry if i miss understood	
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from what i see or understand from this post you want carbine nerf all the content/fighting mecanics etc... cause you cant handle it? im sure they wont nerf a content or mecanic cause a few bunch cant handle it and if they nerf it that will make rage quit a lot of players sorry if i miss understood
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I tried to follow your thoughts but after reading all of this I have no idea what you want.
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			Kind of hard to dumb down the classes anymore than they already are. :P	
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			It has become simply a part of the lifecycle of any and all online games.  No matter how many times it's backfired in the past, publishers will always push developers to dumb down games, no matter how dumbed down they already are, dreaming of mass appeal and huge boosts in revenue.  Surely this time it will bring in billions of new subscribers! Never mind that every other time in the past it caused subscription numbers to nosedive. The publisher is ALWAYS right. ALWAYS.	
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			They will do whatever brings them more money, that is all. Combat mechanics are easy as it is, i can't even picture this game with an easier rotation then what it have already, maybe they can make boss telegraphs hit for less or be slower, but rotation wise i can't even see how it could be possibly easier then Warriors after Drop 3.	
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Because ONLY THAT
 
...[stuff]...
 
pleasant nights,
 
-Vico
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The guy above me hit it on the head.
 
You really can't make this game any easier than it already is. A monkey could likely do the rotations we have now, and pretty well, at that. The combat in this game wasn't designed to be challenging, it's just unforgiving. Kind of like Dark Souls. Easy to play, but if you mess up, you're dead. For most people, the game is so hard they can't even play it as is, so you shouldn't expect any kind of complexity or depth from the combat system, because most people wouldn't be able to handle that.
 
But really, they'll do whatever it takes to bring in more money. Developers and publishers don't really care about the game, they care about the income potential. Very few companies out there will stick to their guns and keep true to the spirit of their game. (Nintendo is one that isn't doing too well, but still sticks to their philosophies).
 
Just gotta accept the fact that games are getting easier and easier, all in the name of money. Thanks wallet-humping assholes of the world. ^^	
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You’ve got to be kidding me. Carbine has been further even more decided to use even go need to do look more as anyone can. Can you really be far even as decided half as much to use go wish for that? My guess is that when one really been far even as decided once to use even go want, it is then that he has really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like. It’s just common sense.
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I'm not sure that complex rotations are key to making a game challenging. And I'm thinking more that the learning curve for WildStar is a bit much for some people until you hold their hands and explain a few facts of life about the game, such as what your main stat is, how important that main stat is and how unimportant all other stats are, with the caveat of strikethrough being at the minimum (which is super easy to do if you have a few key pieces of gear).
 
The telegraph system isn't complicated to get a handle on, understanding your character abilities and when to use them is the same curve as any other MMO I've ever played.
 
For PvE WildStar emphasizes knowing and responding to mechanics. Stay out of red has never been more unforgiving for players than in this game. Understanding interrupts and the Moments of Opportunity that they provide is key.
 
Gearing yourself properly and getting the minimum requirements to have a chance at performing and surviving mechanics is also vital. Running around in lvl 46 greens will not suddenly allow you to perform in Veteran Dungeons/raids.
 
You do actually need the armor provided by lvl 50 items to not get slaughtered by unavoidable damage mechanics like the DoT from the Fire Speaker in SSM (forget her name right now), Drokk's homing DoT, etc... 
 
It's a great idea to rune your gear, it's a bad idea to give yourself useless runes. Contrary to popular belief healers don't actually use brutality. You don't deflect heals on your party members. Grit is also quite the useless stat right now as well, as literally any other defensive option provides better protection.
 
I'm not sure what the L2P issues really are, other than individuals inability to follow the basic concepts of:
 
1) Have interrupts on your bar, use them when you're required to.
2) Stay out of Red.
3) Change your LAS for each encounter to give yourself the best chance for success.
4) Always use Main Stat items. AP and what ever your other one is.
 
As far as what builds of abilities and amps to use, there are great guides out there for people who are struggling to come up with one that suits them.
 
Also not every encounter is a dps race, so it's better to bring abilities that allow you to put out good enough dps and give you survivability. Like on Octong in Skullcano it's a good idea to have interrupts and CC breaks. You don't need interrupts on certain encounters, so don't bring them on the ones that don't need them. Drokk is a great fight to have snares, roots and stuns on at the cost of dps so you don't lose people to exploding robots. Things like that.
 
If people are unable to learn how to play the game and to follow the concepts of loot progression, then maybe MMO's aren't really for them?	
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WTF just happened here?
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I think it's pretty telling that some of Wildstar's player base -- and also some of the devs -- refer to making content easier and more accessible as "dumbing down."  Doesn't this phrasing imply that it is somehow stupid to not want to put a lot of time into a video game? 
 
And isn't that bass-ackwards? 
 
It's not "dumb" to put absolute limits on the amount of time, energy, and effort you choose to put into a purely voluntary endeavor that has -- face it -- zero real-life value.  Video gaming is an entertainment, and if people choose to toy around with it rather than taking a college course in how to "play right", that's actually smart, not dumb. 
 
I really have to wonder if the gamer base and the devs who hold onto this idea that it's "dumb" to not care to work hard at playing a video game know how they come across to folks who play video games just for fun -- that is, the vast majority of players out there.  Do  they get how condescending and arrogant they sound with that attitude? Or are they oblivious?  
 
I just finished reading an article on Massively about how there is a lot of unholy glee in certain parts of the gamesphere at Wildstar's stumbling out of the gate so badly. If you want to know why that glee exists, you can trace it right back to this kind of attitude.  Naturally, if someone is walking around talking down about you for something as bizarre as not putting as much time and effort into a video game as he thinks you ought to, you're going to laugh your ass off when he falls flat on his face.  	
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I think it's pretty telling that some of Wildstar's player base -- and also some of the devs -- refer to making content easier and more accessible as "dumbing down."  Doesn't this phrasing imply that it is somehow stupid to not want to put a lot of time into a video game? 
 
And isn't that bass-ackwards? 
 
It's not "dumb" to put absolute limits on the amount of time, energy, and effort you choose to put into a purely voluntary endeavor that has -- face it -- zero real-life value.  Video gaming is an entertainment, and if people choose to toy around with it rather than taking a college course in how to "play right", that's actually smart, not dumb. 
 
I really have to wonder if the gamer base and the devs who hold onto this idea that it's "dumb" to not care to work hard at playing a video game know how they come across to folks who play video games just for fun -- that is, the vast majority of players out there.  Do  they get how condescending and arrogant they sound with that attitude? Or are they oblivious?  
 
I just finished reading an article on Massively about how there is a lot of unholy glee in certain parts of the gamesphere at Wildstar's stumbling out of the gate so badly. If you want to know why that glee exists, you can trace it right back to this kind of attitude.  Naturally, if someone is walking around talking down about you for something as bizarre as not putting as much time and effort into a video game as he thinks you ought to, you're going to laugh your ass off when he falls flat on his face.  
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I tried to follow your thoughts but after reading all of this I have no idea what you want.
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I think it's pretty telling that some of Wildstar's player base -- and also some of the devs -- refer to making content easier and more accessible as "dumbing down."  Doesn't this phrasing imply that it is somehow stupid to not want to put a lot of time into a video game? 
 
And isn't that bass-ackwards? 
 
It's not "dumb" to put absolute limits on the amount of time, energy, and effort you choose to put into a purely voluntary endeavor that has -- face it -- zero real-life value.  Video gaming is an entertainment, and if people choose to toy around with it rather than taking a college course in how to "play right", that's actually smart, not dumb. 
 
I really have to wonder if the gamer base and the devs who hold onto this idea that it's "dumb" to not care to work hard at playing a video game know how they come across to folks who play video games just for fun -- that is, the vast majority of players out there.  Do  they get how condescending and arrogant they sound with that attitude? Or are they oblivious?  
 
I just finished reading an article on Massively about how there is a lot of unholy glee in certain parts of the gamesphere at Wildstar's stumbling out of the gate so badly. If you want to know why that glee exists, you can trace it right back to this kind of attitude.  Naturally, if someone is walking around talking down about you for something as bizarre as not putting as much time and effort into a video game as he thinks you ought to, you're going to laugh your ass off when he falls flat on his face.  
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The telegraph system isn't complicated to get a handle on, understanding your character abilities and when to use them is the same curve as any other MMO I've ever played. 
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^This
Lmao
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to give an outside example i guess to sort of nutshell the overall theme/focus on what caused the dribbling OP/ -  it hurts me to read a post on a SC2 forums about someone not being able to deal with mass speedlings/zerglings with blink stalkers/ immortals.....  (not the correct units to deal with speedlings for non SC2ers) and then getting on suggestions or another thread and complain and ask Devs for speedlings to be nerfed or  stalkers/immortals to be able to get a buff or addition to deal with them better, because they are just too tough for such a "strong unit mix"  even though Psy storm/ High templar alone, can smear zergs into jam in seconds.people sometimes flame for asking rather than pointing out a simple solution/ or just don't feel like they should have to explain certain things when someone is trying to get the wrong tool to work for a certain job, when the correct solution is within reach and only requires a bit of research or trial and error. (though trial and error can be discouraging if theres a LOT to try before finding the correct answer.. and some will ask for changes before realizing they may already have what they need.
 
another example would be going to Ace hardware and asking to get your power drill upgraded because its a POS and cant even sink old school Nails. eventually your complaining gets you to customer service where someone points out that you have a hammer hanging from your belt and they don't understand your issue and say they can't help. so the customer, feeling angry for being mistreated or not being given proper attention to address his problem will leave unhappy with "lame service"
when a few simple things, that most won't take a moment to point out, happened to go over his head.	
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They won't "nerf" the combat system and they WILL do things to alleviate the "L2P" issues.
They're putting in a practice dungeon type deal and I figure at some point they'll put in something people somewhere consider easy.
 
Are they gonna nerf the current content? They "kinda" already did and they probably will again, but it won't be called a nerf, it'll be called an "adjustment" and people will feel ways about it.
Are they gonna put in simple content sometimes? Probably, it'd be fudging moronic not to.
Are they gonna do a thing everyone will agree is the best thing ever? No, because that's impossible.
Are they gonna add something half the game is balls deep in love with whilst the other half despises it? Most of the time, yes.	
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			all you reasonable people, being reasonable. Y'all'r awesome	
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all you reasonable people, being reasonable. Y'all'r awesome
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You’ve got to be kidding me. Carbine has been further even more decided to use even go need to do look more as anyone can. Can you really be far even as decided half as much to use go wish for that? My guess is that when one really been far even as decided once to use even go want, it is then that he has really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like. It’s just common sense.
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			I wouldn't mind them making the Vet Dungeons easier. Impossible to have a run with a pug.	
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I wouldn't mind them making the Vet Dungeons easier. Impossible to have a run with a pug.
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I think vet dungeons are just as hard as they need to be.  That's why they're called "veteran".  The problem is that people think they can just step into Vet Skullcano, wave their swords around at random, and get a gold medal.
 
Some people need to complete regular Skullcano a few dozen times before they can call themselves "veterans."
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I agree, there are some things that need to happen that are often over looked. Pug groups I've run with that have a difficult time are usually riddled with players in lvl 46 greens they got while leveling.
 
Unfortunately the player skill has to be amazing for them to survive in a veteran dungeon and pull their weight in sub-standard gear.
 
The Veterans as they are now are even challenging if you're in all Veteran Adventure blues. Crafting is kinda the exception to the gear progression rule, but I'm understanding that is going to be fixed in drop 3.
 
Didn't J-Tal say something about that the itemization philosophy and difficulty tuning was based around having yourself decked out in 90% of the previous tier level gear? So like to have an easier time in dungeons make sure you have a majority of adventure gear, and before going into raid make sure you have majority dungeon gear etc... Think it was a live stream.
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