106408-struggling-to-see-a-vision-or-a-direction

== Content ==
			
I don't post often. This is maybe my 5th post. Here is what I've read and seen over the past few days. Some of it being maybe a week old.
 
I read a post in the Dev tracker that Carbine is looking into ways to make the GA attunement process feel less onerous. So, the end game entryway for PVE content feel 'onerous' in the eyes of the Carbine developers (and apparently players also according to these forums).
 
I've watched and read the lead PVP dev change nearly the entire core mechanics of the PVP system....release it....have the community show how it A) didn't address the majority of issues people have with PVP and B] was mostly broken anyway, thus bringing said Dev back to the boards to outline a new series of massive and sweeping changes to PVP (all demanded by the players fyi) over the next few months. So, the end game for PVP content was broken so badly it has required nearly two rewrites and has an entire section of the game's player base feeling helpless, hopeless and ready to give up on trying.
 
I watched the Itemization lead on the Nexus Report (maybe the weekly?) basically admit the entire cornerstone of how Wildstar's itemization is built (Triple RNG) is flawed enough to cause a plan to be developed to take the entire Rune System and rework it from the ground up as a long term project. I also heard a Dev Lead on the Nexus Report (yesterday, was it?) say that Carbine is looking to move away from RNG as a developmental cornerstone. So...even if you get into the end gave for PVE....the most tangible reward available (items) are often pointless to have until very late in the GA raid.
 
I've listened to podcasts of current GA cleared guildies who have mentioned how a group seeking to enter Datascape would have (on average) to do dungeon runs for months to get enough partial primal patterns to attune to Datascape for the entire raid if they didn't buy them off the AH. More to the point, this podcaster pointed out that Datascape wasn't finished on launch, still isn't finished and probably cannot even be completed in its current state. Finally, his belief was that as more casual guilds get to this content, they will hit an impassable wall that will mean that only the 1% of the 1% of hardcore players will ever see (let alone complete) Datascape.
 
And...finally....and worst of all....I've watched numerous Dev Leads (leads, now, not just rank n file devs) happily claim the 5th Amendment when faced with a question that falls under the wing of another team...even though the Dev in the chair almost certainly knows the answer the question. If such a Lead DOESN'T know the answer to these questions, then there is a serious breakdown of communication at the planning stage of development here.
 
So...help me out here as a paying subscriber (not a CREDD subscriber). This is not meant as a snarky post. Its meant solely as my understanding of the things I've seen and read. I really want to be wrong on this. Where is my sense of competence, confidence and vision coming from for this game and the company that drives it?
 
Thank you.	
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So...help me out here as a paying subscriber (not a CREDD subscriber).
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I don't post often. This is maybe my 5th post. Here is what I've read and seen over the past few days. Some of it being maybe a week old.
 
I read a post in the Dev tracker that Carbine is looking into ways to make the GA attunement process feel less onerous. So, the end game entryway for PVE content feel 'onerous' in the eyes of the Carbine developers (and apparently players also according to these forums).
 
I've watched and read the lead PVP dev change nearly the entire core mechanics of the PVP system....release it....have the community show how it A) didn't address the majority of issues people have with PVP and B] was mostly broken anyway, thus bringing said Dev back to the boards to outline a new series of massive and sweeping changes to PVP (all demanded by the players fyi) over the next few months. So, the end game for PVP content was broken so badly it has required nearly two rewrites and has an entire section of the game's player base feeling helpless, hopeless and ready to give up on trying.
 
I watched the Itemization lead on the Nexus Report (maybe the weekly?) basically admit the entire cornerstone of how Wildstar's itemization is built (Triple RNG) is flawed enough to cause a plan to be developed to take the entire Rune System and rework it from the ground up as a long term project. I also heard a Dev Lead on the Nexus Report (yesterday, was it?) say that Carbine is looking to move away from RNG as a developmental cornerstone. So...even if you get into the end gave for PVE....the most tangible reward available (items) are often pointless to have until very late in the GA raid.
 
I've listened to podcasts of current GA cleared guildies who have mentioned how a group seeking to enter Datascape would have (on average) to do dungeon runs for months to get enough partial primal patterns to attune to Datascape for the entire raid if they didn't buy them off the AH. More to the point, this podcaster pointed out that Datascape wasn't finished on launch, still isn't finished and probably cannot even be completed in its current state. Finally, his belief was that as more casual guilds get to this content, they will hit an impassable wall that will mean that only the 1% of the 1% of hardcore players will ever see (let alone complete) Datascape.
 
And...finally....and worst of all....I've watched numerous Dev Leads (leads, now, not just rank n file devs) happily claim the 5th Amendment when faced with a question that falls under the wing of another team...even though the Dev in the chair almost certainly knows the answer the question. If such a Lead DOESN'T know the answer to these questions, then there is a serious breakdown of communication at the planning stage of development here.
 
So...help me out here as a paying subscriber (not a CREDD subscriber). This is not meant as a snarky post. Its meant solely as my understanding of the things I've seen and read. I really want to be wrong on this. Where is my sense of competence, confidence and vision coming from for this game and the company that drives it?
 
Thank you.
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			I just want to see some more accountability about an end game that is such a *cupcake*ing mess that they've already lost so many core players other than "attunement is onerous woops lol"	
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whole game feels like a scam to me. just cash in on the initial surge of buyers and credd whales and run.
how else would you explain some of these design decisions going against and pissing of the playerbase CONSTANTLY while breaking the game with every patch to boot.
i too dont think datascape is even finished yet. why else would they have added that ridiculous patern grind to it? to give themselves time to finish it. too bad for them some guilds have been  actualy stupid enough to do said grind so its all in the open now.
 
btw have you any links for said podcasts? would be interested to check em out myself.	
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whole game feels like a scam to me. just cash in on the initial surge of buyers and credd whales and run.
how else would you explain some of these design decisions going against and pissing of the playerbase CONSTANTLY while breaking the game with every patch to boot.
i too dont think datascape is even finished yet. why else would they have added that ridiculous patern grind to it? to give themselves time to finish it. too bad for them some guilds have been  actualy stupid enough to do said grind so its all in the open now.
 
btw have you any links for said podcasts? would be interested to check em out myself.
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			Well the leveling content is good so there are no problems there, the big issue currently is end game content which they are now trying to fix. At least this is better than SWTOR which just does nothing to improve the situation other than go F2P.	
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btw have you any links for said podcasts? would be interested to check em out myself.
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Carbine is offering timelines that extend into the "several months" from now range. Listen...keep the Defile. I don't want it. I want to hear that Dungeons don't require people skipping half the trash in order to feel successful. I want to hear that PVP is fun, exciting and competitive. I want to hear that gear progression is meaningful and predictable. I want a game. Not a paid beta. I don't know if I believe Carbine can do that, hence my OP.
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Where is my sense of competence, confidence and vision coming from for this game and the company that drives it?
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I read it but ...
 
TLDR for those that aren't:
 
Wildstar suffers from the same problems that every other MMORPG on the market today.  Promise much and deliver not so much ( usually because they are rushed by their publisher ( looking at you Activision, EA, NCSoft, etc )).  So games tend to "default" to the same over all game play model without much variation.  Player base being the impatient entitled types that they are these days because they live in an era of plenty ... hop from MMO to MMO never ever being satisfied because they can not exercise a little patience or invest in a particular game developer to see the vision come to fruition.   So RIP to all the previous games that fell to this phenomena but, for cupcake's sake give Wildstar time and man up and stick it out. :P	
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If I don't buy credd the *cupcake*ing whale wouldn't pay 5 usd more than what you pay for a month
 
So
 
Credd user=20usd a month 
Subscriber = 15usd a month 
Whale subscriber = new car. 
 
Buying credds with plat I already gave crb 315usd between credds & game. Sure if I hadn't done that someone else would. But if no one does it? Then what? No whales expending hundreds if not thousands. 
 
Getting back in topic I agree with everything else you said 
 
But saying subscriber is more needed than credd buyer is just ignorant	
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If I don't buy credd the *cupcake*ing whale wouldn't pay 5 usd more than what you pay for a month
 
So
 
Credd user=20usd a month
Subscriber = 15usd a month
Whale subscriber = new car.
 
Buying credds with plat I already gave crb 315usd between credds & game. Sure if I hadn't done that someone else would. But if no one does it? Then what? No whales expending hundreds if not thousands.
 
Getting back in topic I agree with everything else you said
 
But saying subscriber is more needed than credd buyer is just ignorant
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So...help me out here as a paying subscriber (not a CREDD subscriber). This is not meant as a snarky post. Its meant solely as my understanding of the things I've seen and read. I really want to be wrong on this. Where is my sense of competence, confidence and vision coming from for this game and the company that drives it?
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I agree that it's very strange that the leads in different teams don't know how to answer, or are unwilling to answer questions that fall into some other team's jurisdiction. I thought the same to myself after the last dev Q&A. Leads on each team should have a total vision of the game, be themselves a team that carries out the over-arching plan for the game (short and long term) with as much cohesiveness as possible. MMO systems are all interconnected.
 
What I don't agree with is the amount of mistrust the player base seems to have towards them. They have accomplished something incredible already. Yes, the game is imperfect and the latest blunders are unfortunate, sometimes head-scratchingly misguided, but assuming they have some deep-seeded internal problem, or worse, that they don't know how to do their job is going too far, in my opinion. If that was the case, this game would've been terrible at launch. The entire dev process would've collapsed before release.
 
Of course once the game is "out there" it's a whole other ballgame. What I think we can do as players is to try and maintain open dialog with Carbine so we can have more mutual trust. We want the same thing.
 
Wildstar is their baby, they're proud of it, and should be. They may be reluctant to completely embrace player feedback since they've been shielded from it for years and know how to do their job better than most of us. They may be tired of the abrasiveness with which we react to their mistakes. I don't know. Either way, the fact is that there is some guardedness on their part, and consequently on ours.
 
We're in a jousting match right now. Maybe that's just the reality of every post-WoW MMO. Maybe it's inevitable since we are paying customers and they're offering a product that is by nature never finished. Maybe there are some issues internally we're not aware of. Maybe we're just too into Wildstar to take a breather and embrace the inherently flawed process... 	
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Dungeons don't  require skipping content to feel successful; people who only care about medals don't feel successful with out them
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Would you prefer they never admit they were wrong about some things, and just make changes up in an Ivory Tower and never tell us what is coming or what their plans are? I've found that's how most dev teams choose to project those things. My preference is a more open and honest dialogue like we get here.
 
Sure if you want to cherry pick the negatives like you did for your post, it sounds pretty bad. However there are dozens of changes in every drop that address player's real concerns, and never get much commentary because it's less fun to talk about positives than it is to argue about negatives.
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Maybe I've had a few too many beers, but I've read this post a few times and I have no effing clue wtf you are saying LOL
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			It's just the growing pains of CS realizing that targeting the 1%, and living in the past isn't what makes for a thriving money making game. There's no vision because their vision isn't working, and they're having to scramble to retrofit the titanic. It will be sorted, but I don't expect anytime soon.	
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I don't think it's that their vision isn't working.  It's that they took their vision and ran with it too far... intentional or otherwise.  I think it's entirely possible to have a game that's challenging yet fun and appealing to many.  Is it easy to do?  Heck no.  There's a reason the majority of games get scrapped in early development.  It takes some amazing talent, management, and a good bit of luck to pull off a successful AAA game.WildStar has an amazing foundation.  If a game like FFXIV can turn itself around, WildStar without a doubt can.  Who knows.  Maybe that was the plan all along.  Bring in some money while working on the revamped and polished systems for a relaunch down the road :D
 
 	
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It's just the growing pains of CS realizing that targeting the 1%, and living in the past isn't what makes for a thriving money making game. There's no vision because their vision isn't working, and they're having to scramble to retrofit the titanic. It will be sorted, but I don't expect anytime soon.
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I don't post often. 
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Hardcore IS NOT:
Running dungeons over and over just to have bugs and RNG determine your loot. 
Farming dailies for 25+ days to reach Beloved.
49 weeks of Elder Gems.
Timers in dungeons
Severely gated content.
RNG in general
Hardcore IS:
Encounters that get progressively more challenging.
Tiered content
Telegraphs
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			If you like playing this game you better continue doing just that.	
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.. but when I do, TLDR.
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We all know Carbien has seriously *cupcake*ed up.
We know they are "trying" to fix it.
 
However their ideas don't work. We can easily see that through Grindstar.	
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We all know Carbien has seriously *cupcake*ed up.
We know they are "trying" to fix it.
 
However their ideas don't work. We can easily see that through Grindstar.
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"we" as in "you" ?
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So you are saying you don't see how they have *cupcake*ed up?
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All Chua see is Human trolling and being toxic all over place.
Did troll not quit?
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I'll never understand MMO players.
 
I've seen a ton of MMOs come out in which their developers ruthlessly stick to "the vision" and refuse to change anything beyond bug fixes and QoL improvements until the fabled but never realised expansion.
 
I, personally, have tremendous respect for Carbine's willingness to make large, complicated and important changes to get the game right.
 
Development is a slow, complicated and risky process.
 
Turns out Attunement isn't hard, but is in fact a frustrating gateway into the content they want you running? Good on them for rowing it back a bit.
PvP stats aren't working out? Good on them for taking the time to rework it. Still not working perfectly? Good on them for revisiting.
Damage scaling isn't working out? Good on them for reworking stances and itemisation.
PvP gear gap feels punishing, making it hard for people to compete? Good on them for making base PvP gear more powerful and smoothing the artificial gear advantages that the rush-to-1800 crowd have.
The mini RNGesus Rune slot game isn't actually all that fun? Good on them for admitting it and working to fix it.
 
 
Anyone who believes they don't care deeply about the game isn't paying attention, and likely hasn't created anything worth a damn in their time. Rule one of being good designers; be ready to rip up and redesign/rework, nothing is ever perfect.
 
 
The vision and direction? Get people into the content, remove the frustrating elements.
 
Like many here I was a closed beta tester for a long, long time; the game is infinitely better now than any point during beta, and their willingness to invent new systems, rework existing ones and completely remove others in the pursuit of a fun game is admirable.	
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			No one likes RNG mate. But if you play MMO's you will have to deal with it.	
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No one likes RNG mate. But if you play MMO's you will have to deal with it.
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Nothing wrong with RNG.
    The only issue is when you have this much RNG
1.) Item drops
2.)# of runes
3.) Type of runes
4.)Other players rolling for said item.
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hard core
noun
noun: hardcore
the most active, committed, or doctrinaire members of a group or movement
 
 
the game is hardcore.  Think some people just dont know what the word means.  And now you do! ur whalecum	
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That's racist.
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			The biggest mistake that Carbine has made is falling into the trap of trying to recreate the nostalgia of MMOs from nearly a decade ago.  Late vanilla WOW and into TBC was an amazing time to be an MMO player. But quite honestly, time has passed, and improvements have been made to the genre.   Players have come to expect better out of their game, and while they look back fondly on the time they spent grinding redonkulous hours in previous years, these days they simply won't tolerate it. The industry and the playerbase have moved on. All Carbine needed to do was look at other current MMOs and ask themselves:  "What are those MMOs doing right, and how can we take it up a notch just a little bit."  and "What are those MMOs doing wrong, and how can we avoid repeating those mistakes?"  But Carbine didn't do that. They just copy/pasted major portions of industry standard MMO garbage and put a Wildstar skin on it.   Players bought into the hype and expected something new and better. And when they got the same boring repetitive crap from 5-10 years ago, is it any wonder that they got upset and started QQing and leaving?    It's one thing to like the style and presentation of Wildstar. It's another thing entirely to ignore the fact that a large portion of the game is just recycled MMO content that we've ALL seen dozens of times before.  	
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The biggest mistake that Carbine has made is falling into the trap of trying to recreate the nostalgia of MMOs from nearly a decade ago. Late vanilla WOW and into TBC was an amazing time to be an MMO player. But quite honestly, time has passed, and improvements have been made to the genre. Players have come to expect better out of their game, and while they look back fondly on the time they spent grinding redonkulous hours in previous years, these days they simply won't tolerate it. The industry and the playerbase have moved on. 
 
All Carbine needed to do was look at other current MMOs and ask themselves: "What are those MMOs doing right, and how can we take it up a notch just a little bit." and "What are those MMOs doing wrong, and how can we avoid repeating those mistakes?" 
 
But Carbine didn't do that. They just copy/pasted major portions of industry standard MMO garbage and put a Wildstar skin on it. Players bought into the hype and expected something new and better. And when they got the same boring repetitive crap from 5-10 years ago, is it any wonder that they got upset and started QQing and leaving? 
 
It's one thing to like the style and presentation of Wildstar. It's another thing entirely to ignore the fact that a large portion of the game is just recycled MMO content that we've ALL seen dozens of times before.
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what a idiot.
 
To the OP really good post, does make you wonder why they all over the place.
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The thing about looking back at what MMO's were, is:
 
 
And yes I also played WoW vanilla etc......	
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I don't post often. This is maybe my 5th post. Here is what I've read and seen over the past few days. Some of it being maybe a week old.
 
I read a post in the Dev tracker that Carbine is looking into ways to make the GA attunement process feel less onerous. So, the end game entryway for PVE content feel 'onerous' in the eyes of the Carbine developers (and apparently players also according to these forums).
 
I've watched and read the lead PVP dev change nearly the entire core mechanics of the PVP system....release it....have the community show how it A) didn't address the majority of issues people have with PVP and B] was mostly broken anyway, thus bringing said Dev back to the boards to outline a new series of massive and sweeping changes to PVP (all demanded by the players fyi) over the next few months. So, the end game for PVP content was broken so badly it has required nearly two rewrites and has an entire section of the game's player base feeling helpless, hopeless and ready to give up on trying.
 
I watched the Itemization lead on the Nexus Report (maybe the weekly?) basically admit the entire cornerstone of how Wildstar's itemization is built (Triple RNG) is flawed enough to cause a plan to be developed to take the entire Rune System and rework it from the ground up as a long term project. I also heard a Dev Lead on the Nexus Report (yesterday, was it?) say that Carbine is looking to move away from RNG as a developmental cornerstone. So...even if you get into the end gave for PVE....the most tangible reward available (items) are often pointless to have until very late in the GA raid.
 
I've listened to podcasts of current GA cleared guildies who have mentioned how a group seeking to enter Datascape would have (on average) to do dungeon runs for months to get enough partial primal patterns to attune to Datascape for the entire raid if they didn't buy them off the AH. More to the point, this podcaster pointed out that Datascape wasn't finished on launch, still isn't finished and probably cannot even be completed in its current state. Finally, his belief was that as more casual guilds get to this content, they will hit an impassable wall that will mean that only the 1% of the 1% of hardcore players will ever see (let alone complete) Datascape.
 
And...finally....and worst of all....I've watched numerous Dev Leads (leads, now, not just rank n file devs) happily claim the 5th Amendment when faced with a question that falls under the wing of another team...even though the Dev in the chair almost certainly knows the answer the question. If such a Lead DOESN'T know the answer to these questions, then there is a serious breakdown of communication at the planning stage of development here.
 
So...help me out here as a paying subscriber (not a CREDD subscriber). This is not meant as a snarky post. Its meant solely as my understanding of the things I've seen and read. I really want to be wrong on this. Where is my sense of competence, confidence and vision coming from for this game and the company that drives it?
 
Thank you.
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Just making the attunement a checklist type rather than a defined order would go a long way to helping a lot of people.
 
With the latest changes to the dungeons, the only real pain is having to do this stuff in order.	
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Just making the attunement a checklist type rather than a defined order would go a long way to helping a lot of people.
 
With the latest changes to the dungeons, the only real pain is having to do this stuff in order.
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I actually had no idea it was so specifically step-by-step - the sheer bugginess of the elemental has kept me from following the chain any farther until they bother making the fight work - but uh...
 
What does this mean if you come into the process with maxed Reputation? Does it reset you? Jump you forward a step? Have I misread something and there's another rep entirely?
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Nah, rep is the only thing in the chain you can do prior to reaching that step in attunement.
 
What is wrong the Pyralos?
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My guess is we have different cooks in the kitchen that have different philosophies and we are paying the price for it. I can almost hear some of the CRB employees screaming in agreement with many of the gripes lately.
 
 
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Also he will bug out and Aoe with 6-8 cones.
 
Just find a settler with the big fire, it will heal through that bugged aoe.	
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That's what I suspect, one or two people of major influence got greedy and influenced the bad decision as a the loot table.
 
I can live with the bugs, all the other faults about the game, I don't really care about that.  But when they are squeezing money off the "casuals" and "middle" class like serfdom, you are not going to attract more players.  That's what 3rd world countries do and why you have a gap between rich and poor.  If Carbine wants to succeed, they need to make a "middle class" more accessible.  
 
Even if they revamp the loot system halfway, I think that'll win a lot of players back.  
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Also he will bug out and Aoe with 6-8 cones.
 
Just find a settler with the big fire, it will heal through that bugged aoe.
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Well the devs are learning that their ideas don't work so well.
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It doesn't help that you have people who throw objectivity out the window and scream "CASUAL!"  any times someone points out a legitimate problem with the game.  
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It doesn't help that you have people who throw objectivity out the window and scream "CASUAL!"  any times someone points out a legitimate problem with the game.  
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So...help me out here as a paying subscriber (not a CREDD subscriber). 
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Pyralos enrages if dotted.
 
Remove all dots from your stuff (gluck if you're a class who has it on abilities and amps)
 
NO DOTS.
 
 
MORE DOTS?
 
 
NO DOTS.
 
HANDLE IT.	
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Pyralos enrages if dotted.
 
Remove all dots from your stuff (gluck if you're a class who has it on abilities and amps)
 
NO DOTS.
 
 
MORE DOTS?
 
 
NO DOTS.
 
HANDLE IT.
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Would you prefer they never admit they were wrong about some things, and just make changes up in an Ivory Tower and never tell us what is coming or what their plans are? I've found that's how most dev teams choose to project those things. My preference is a more open and honest dialogue like we get here.
 
Sure if you want to cherry pick the negatives like you did for your post, it sounds pretty bad. However there are dozens of changes in every drop that address player's real concerns, and never get much commentary because it's less fun to talk about positives than it is to argue about negatives.
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I don't post often. This is maybe my 5th post. Here is what I've read and seen over the past few days. Some of it being maybe a week old.
 
I read a post in the Dev tracker that Carbine is looking into ways to make the GA attunement process feel less onerous. So, the end game entryway for PVE content feel 'onerous' in the eyes of the Carbine developers (and apparently players also according to these forums).
 
I've watched and read the lead PVP dev change nearly the entire core mechanics of the PVP system....release it....have the community show how it A) didn't address the majority of issues people have with PVP and B] was mostly broken anyway, thus bringing said Dev back to the boards to outline a new series of massive and sweeping changes to PVP (all demanded by the players fyi) over the next few months. So, the end game for PVP content was broken so badly it has required nearly two rewrites and has an entire section of the game's player base feeling helpless, hopeless and ready to give up on trying.
 
I watched the Itemization lead on the Nexus Report (maybe the weekly?) basically admit the entire cornerstone of how Wildstar's itemization is built (Triple RNG) is flawed enough to cause a plan to be developed to take the entire Rune System and rework it from the ground up as a long term project. I also heard a Dev Lead on the Nexus Report (yesterday, was it?) say that Carbine is looking to move away from RNG as a developmental cornerstone. So...even if you get into the end gave for PVE....the most tangible reward available (items) are often pointless to have until very late in the GA raid.
 
I've listened to podcasts of current GA cleared guildies who have mentioned how a group seeking to enter Datascape would have (on average) to do dungeon runs for months to get enough partial primal patterns to attune to Datascape for the entire raid if they didn't buy them off the AH. More to the point, this podcaster pointed out that Datascape wasn't finished on launch, still isn't finished and probably cannot even be completed in its current state. Finally, his belief was that as more casual guilds get to this content, they will hit an impassable wall that will mean that only the 1% of the 1% of hardcore players will ever see (let alone complete) Datascape.
 
And...finally....and worst of all....I've watched numerous Dev Leads (leads, now, not just rank n file devs) happily claim the 5th Amendment when faced with a question that falls under the wing of another team...even though the Dev in the chair almost certainly knows the answer the question. If such a Lead DOESN'T know the answer to these questions, then there is a serious breakdown of communication at the planning stage of development here.
 
So...help me out here as a paying subscriber (not a CREDD subscriber). This is not meant as a snarky post. Its meant solely as my understanding of the things I've seen and read. I really want to be wrong on this. Where is my sense of competence, confidence and vision coming from for this game and the company that drives it?
 
Thank you.
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OP, I see your complaints and they are mostly valid, but I have to also agree with what Lemurian is saying here. Admitting when you're wrong and working to correct your mistakes ARE signs of competence.
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@ Impacthound
 
The difference with Vanilla WoW was that in Scholo (one of my favorites) and other endgame non raid instances, depending on the gear of your group, you could have a reasonable expectation of success with a pug.  That's not so here, no one can be carried, I did plenty of that in my WoW healer days, and you know what I didnt mind.  If you wiped, you picked up and did it again.  There were no death counts, no timers, just you vs the content as presented.  Yea if you wiped a bunch people would quit, but I would submit to you that if after a certain time period or # of deaths your chances of getting a Deadmist Cowl decreased substantially, people would just opt to start the run over.  The worst part of the group pve scene for me, is the medal system, in addition to the VAST difficulty jump between adventures (snoozefests) and dungeons (OMFG y you stand in red AGAIN?!/everyone leaves).  For me, either the content can stand on it's own, or it cant.
 
I would say in pugs I had a success rate in Scholo/Strath/UBRS/LBRS of about 75-80%,  I ran them tons of times looking for my druid T0.  It was almost relaxing in a way.  Jailbreak, I had less success, probably about 50-60% with decently geared pugs.  	
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Pyralos enrages if dotted.
 
Remove all dots from your stuff (gluck if you're a class who has it on abilities and amps)
 
NO DOTS.
 
 
MORE DOTS?
 
 
NO DOTS.
 
HANDLE IT.
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If you're going to quote me and then call me out, quote me properly.
 
Saying that by paying a SUB with a credit card makes someone better then another who subs with ingame CREDD is bs.
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@ Impacthound
 
The difference with Vanilla WoW was that in Scholo (one of my favorites) and other endgame non raid instances, depending on the gear of your group, you could have a reasonable expectation of success with a pug.  That's not so here, no one can be carried, I did plenty of that in my WoW healer days, and you know what I didnt mind.  If you wiped, you picked up and did it again.  There were no death counts, no timers, just you vs the content as presented.  Yea if you wiped a bunch people would quit, but I would submit to you that if after a certain time period or # of deaths your chances of getting a Deadmist Cowl decreased substantially, people would just opt to start the run over.  The worst part of the group pve scene for me, is the medal system, in addition to the VAST difficulty jump between adventures (snoozefests) and dungeons (OMFG y you stand in red AGAIN?!/everyone leaves).  For me, either the content can stand on it's own, or it cant.
 
I would say in pugs I had a success rate in Scholo/Strath/UBRS/LBRS of about 75-80%,  I ran them tons of times looking for my druid T0.  It was almost relaxing in a way.  Jailbreak, I had less success, probably about 50-60% with decently geared pugs.  
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I'm not quite sure what to make of this;
"So...help me out here as a paying subscriber (not a CREDD subscriber). This is not meant as a snarky post. Its meant solely as my understanding of the things I've seen and read. I really want to be wrong on this. Where is my sense of competence, confidence and vision coming from for this game and the company that drives it?"
 
I think if you browse the Dev Tracker, you'd see they built systems that they thought were sound(and I generally feel attunement and runes aren't bad) but the community in general has proven them flawed in practice. I like the general idea of randomized rune slots to negate the "best in slot" sameness of gear, but in practice it makes min-maxers roll on gear that they already have, away from other players. This would happen anyways to some extent because ninjas gonna ninja, but this is one of those systems where the community ruins what's good on paper(non same-y gear). Maybe a re-roll mechanic for the loot you already have, like D3's Enchanter?
 
I ran Scholomance easily over 50 times to get my Dreadmist Cowl to drop in vanilla from the last boss. I think the devs expected people to be wanting to run dungeons a little more often, and I'm personally surprised they're not(especially with the criticism that Pandaria never patched in any 5-mans and commited to 3-man scenario babymode instead). I know the major complaints are the medal times and no guarantee on purples, but for a headpiece I expected to wear into Molten Core for awhile, I was okay with the low drop rate and running content for the chance at loot.
 
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The problem is you have to get those to gain access to endgame.  It's not optional.  Yeah, I love just strolling through dungeons and having a good old time... unfortunately once you need that attunement that's no longer an option, even if playing with friends.
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Raids aren't 'Endgame' TM Protostar. Raids are hardcore content that is PART OF endgame for the most dedicated. Dungeons, Adventures, Warplots, Vet shiphands (once they make them live), world story, and all the other fun stuff folks do after 50, which includes but is not limited too 'Raids' TM Protostar are what comprise 'Endgame.' Many people have fun running adventures and dungeons for their own sake (I know I enjoy it with a good group of friends). 
 
TLDR: Raids are hardcore content, not the entirety of endgame. People are treating the entirety of endgame besides Raids as if it is nothing but a staircase; if your perspective is that skewed, you aren't going to have a good time.
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Raids are the natural endgame for the majority of PvE focused players. World story? Once you complete that arc it's over until the next drop. Can't really call that endgame. I'd agrue that dungeons and adventures are mainly and means to end - the end being raids. If people only want to do the 5 man content, that's totally cool but I'd imagine that would get awfully boring after a couple weeks or MAYBE a month. I think that is the animosity you see now, people that aren't in raids yet are just really fracking bored and it is hard to get consistent attunement groups going because people are on different steps and those that are done don't want anything to do with that content ever again (for the most part).
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			They designed the endgame content for a very small subset of players. I think they may have been a little off on what the MMO community considers hardcore. Most likely there has been a realization that the small subset of players isn't going to pay the bills. Transitioning out of that is gonna take time and *cupcake* off the small subset and in the transition everyone is going to be upset. I don't envy the task ahead of them. I prefer a more accessible endgame raid with lots of bosses starting from easy mode and progressing to stupid hard so there's something for everyone at all levels.	
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What? In MMOs, only about 5% of the playerbase ever Raid. That's not quite a majority.
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			The raids are the end game.  The big secret of the Eldens is going to be revealed in a raid. Not in a 5 man, or quest of any kind.	
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I think Carbine's definition of "Hardcore" differs from what most people think.
 
Hardcore IS NOT:
Running dungeons over and over just to have bugs and RNG determine your loot. 
Farming dailies for 25+ days to reach Beloved.
49 weeks of Elder Gems.
Timers in dungeons
Severely gated content.
RNG in general.
Hardcore IS:
Encounters that get progressively more challenging.
Tiered content
Telegraphs
 
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What? In MMOs, only about 5% of the playerbase ever Raid. That's not quite a majority.
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Where exactly did you pull that stat from? In every MMO I've ever played the majority of people either are raiding, want to raid or PvP. 
 
Sure, some people decide to focus on other things like crafting or "dailies" but without a true end game in place the game would wither and die. 
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In WoW, it was estimated from wowprogress and other websites that about 500,000 players were Raiding when the overall population was 10m. That's 5%.
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lol not even close, about 5% of raiders see all the content but there is a much much higher percentage of people that raid
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In WoW, it was estimated from wowprogress and other websites that about 500,000 players were Raiding when the overall population was 10m. That's 5%.
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Raids are the natural endgame for the majority of PvE focused players. World story? Once you complete that arc it's over until the next drop. Can't really call that endgame. I'd agrue that dungeons and adventures are mainly and means to end - the end being raids. If people only want to do the 5 man content, that's totally cool but I'd imagine that would get awfully boring after a couple weeks or MAYBE a month. I think that is the animosity you see now, people that aren't in raids yet are just really fracking bored and it is hard to get consistent attunement groups going because people are on different steps and those that are done don't want anything to do with that content ever again (for the most part).
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When was the overall pop 10m?
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The raids are the end game.  The big secret of the Eldens is going to be revealed in a raid. Not in a 5 man, or quest of any kind.
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Carbine has oficially stated raids would be seperate from world story. The secrets of the Eldan  appear in quest hubs, scientist scans in exolabs, quest content, and Drusera's world quests, and cubes.
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and all of GA is about the info you learned in that stuff. They aren't separate from each other
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			I'll make this short. Op feels like a woe is me post. This is a game. If you think the dev team is a bunch of morons and the game is worthless then go to a different game. If you think things will be worked out in time and you are having fun, then stay. If you aren't sure, give your suggestions and check back in a few months. People wanna weigh this out like they are breaking up with a long term girlfriend. It's a game, not a 7 year girlfriend. Relax, it's not "that" big of a deal.	
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You get the lore from the scans, cubes, and quests; the raids simply contain content from the Lore found elsewhere. It's true they aren't seperate; but to suggest Raids are where lore will be found puts the cart before the horse. The Lore all comes from non-raid sources; though obviously the raids incorporate the lore from the open world / other content.
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they were close to 12mil at one point
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Right after BC was released their number were 11 mil, this was later found to be almost 50% double account holders (I myself had 2) and foreign gold farmers. Reducing the number of original accounts and players down to about 4-5.5 mil.
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I know that number is well over 60%. If you ever enter any raid content (kinda hard not to in games with expansions, especially) it counts. Most of those people even get to at least experience the hardest content as it's being progressed. Less people do rated arenas than raid.
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Right after BC was released their number were 11 mil, this was later found to be almost 50% double account holders (I myself had 2) and foreign gold farmers. Reducing the number of original accounts and players down to about 4-5.5 mil.
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Well, that's quite a bit to respond to. I'll try to generalize my thoughts.
 
1. RE: I'm a elitist, etc
I'm sorry that a very few people got this impression from my post. Its not my intent to insult. It is unfortunate that some decided to insult me with no cause, but that's fine. 
 
So, basically, I view the subscription model this way. Players are either one of three groups. A) Willing to pay $$ to sub. B.) Only willing to sub via CREDD in game or C) Willing to pay $ to sub, but would rather sub through in-game CREDD. 
 
I am group A. The vast majority of dollars coming into the pockets of Carbine (in terms of revenue) from this game are coming from Group A. Group A provides the $ in the form of standard subs but ALSO are the group that purchases CREDD from Carbine to be sold to Groups B and C. Hence why, from a financial perspective, Group A is the most critical group Carbine has among its player base. Disagree if you wish, but that is my point.
 
2. What I mean by lack of vision and a question of competence....
 
This game was in development for 8ish years or so. The lead in during that time included statements to the community that the game was being made by Vanilla WoW devs (with the implication that they understand the pitfalls of MMO game design and, as a result, will avoid them in designing Wildstar). The theme of development was that THIS game was different. THIS game was in the hands of people who knew how to do it right. There was extensive feedback given to the Dev team in open and closed betas regarding MANY of the major issues plaguing the game now. By most accounts, few of these concerns were addressed upon launch.
 
So, while I can appreciate the sentiment that the devs are willing to backtrack and change their views on design decisions, my concern lies (as others have said) that these decisions were deemed strong ideas AT ALL.
 
For example, J-Tal wrote a very clear post that Random Runes Suck. I mean...that is a quote. Why in the name of sweet cotton candy would the PVP team then go ahead (and J-Tal said on the Report they would be doing this) insert Rune Randomization onto PVP gear?
 
Lets step back here and break down that logic.
 
Dev Lead A - Random Runes are 1) unpopular among players, 2) cause significant itemization issues in regards to tier of content vs quality of gear and 3) "Suck"
 
So....the logic follows to, well...anyone...that Random Runes are targeted for extinction. Yay! The Devs ARE listening. Cool!
 
Now, in the midst of a massive PVP mess, they make PVP runes random which 1) Cements the stranglehold current 1800 gear players (legitimate/wintraded/carried/whoever) have on the entire PVP scene and 2) Further makes Arena/BG performance unlikely to improve for those in starter blues.
 
Is it some attempt to remove the PVP 1800 weapon from being BIS? Is it a way to put all aspects of the game on an equally unpopular footing itemization wise? I don't know.
 
What I see is a left hand not telling the right hand what its doing. It burns my belief that the organization has a vision and I struggle to find leadership. 
 
Does anyone (that isn't hybperbole), actually ANYONE, believe that having random rune colors on gear is attracting or preserving subs for Wildstar? Does anyone disagree that it has almost certainly driven some subs away? This is the logic of my point.
 
And lastly....
 
3. On the issue of TL:DR
 
Sorry, I don't see the point of TL:DR. If you don't want to read it, I won't be offended. 	
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If we follow the above concept that he provided you can double the number you created and get right to about that 60% mark
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PvP is a mess with obscenely large gear gaps and what did they do? Fix it? Nah, they widen the gap even more than it already is: 1800s now get to optimize their gear and thus become even stronger than before. WTF?
 
1800s as of last nights changes now get to curb stomp newbies and the undergeared even more easier. Imagine a 1800 SS with all PvP O runes....you thought crits are high now? Just wait until their gear has all the right rune slots.
 
Oh the 1800s like to say "just wait until they up the stats on low end gear!". Sure, that's at least 3 months away so now what? Am I going to pay to not play while I wait for that?
 
Instead of making PvP better, they ruin it more and more and MORE every single patch leading me to believe they have absolutely no clue what they are doing. It's either that or they are making sure that 1% is happy and the rest can sod off. That, my friends, gives me zero confidence for the future.	
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Yup, that post came after I started mine. :) I edited mine to reflect that. I'm not aware of any source to support his numbers though, whereas I sourced mine.
 
Edit: I might add, 5-6M accounts that are either second accounts or gold farmers is a bit hard for me to believe. If its true it's pretty amazing.
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Carbine has oficially stated raids would be seperate from world story. The secrets of the Eldan  appear in quest hubs, scientist scans in exolabs, quest content, and Drusera's world quests, and cubes; Not r
 
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And I would say you are flat wrong. To each their own though, and I can respect your difference of opinion. The only reason folks think that raids = endgame though is because, as Geux mentioned, " raids shifted from the exercise of the hardest core minority of  playerbases, to  a very open  spectacle". Raids originally were not endgame but for a small minority of players; they have since been devalued and expanded to be the end all be all.
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So, if raids were originally intended for a small minority of players then there should be a rich, vast and interesting end game completely outside of raids. Um....where is it? Playing through the Drusera content once and Blighthaven once is interesting but I wouldn't call it an end game by a long shot. What else is there (for the PvE crowd, I won't even dive into PvP at this point)? Dailies? Rep grinds? I know there are some people that somehow enjoy that type of content but in no way does that justify a subscription or have enough depth to maintain subs and grow a player base
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So, if raids were originally intended for a small minority of players then there should be a rich, vast and interesting end game completely outside of raids. Um....where is it? Playing through the Drusera content once and Blighthaven once is interesting but I wouldn't call it an end game by a long shot. What else is there (for the PvE crowd, I won't even dive into PvP at this point)? Dailies? Rep grinds? I know there are some people that somehow enjoy that type of content but in no way does that justify a subscription or have enough depth to maintain subs and grow a player base
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I'll have to do some digging in my GameInformers, there was an article about it there, I'll see if i can find it by the end of the day.
 
But WoW also isn't the only MMO with raids, so we can't use only WoW's numbers either.
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Dev Lead A - Random Runes are 1) unpopular among players, 2) cause significant itemization issues in regards to tier of content vs quality of gear and 3) "Suck"
 
So....the logic follows to, well...anyone...that Random Runes are targeted for extinction. Yay! The Devs ARE listening. Cool!
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{| class="blockquote"
So, if raids were originally intended for a small minority of players then there should be a rich, vast and interesting end game completely outside of raids. Um....where is it? Playing through the Drusera content once and Blighthaven once is interesting but I wouldn't call it an end game by a long shot. What else is there (for the PvE crowd, I won't even dive into PvP at this point)? Dailies? Rep grinds? I know there are some people that somehow enjoy that type of content but in no way does that justify a subscription or have enough depth to maintain subs and grow a player base
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and that's why you can almost guarantee you'll read about the eldan somewhere on the planet and run into them in a raid. I am pretty sure that was the point Quuarm was trying to make
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I'm pretty sure the point Quuarm was trying to make was :
 
Which is 100% false.
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			The OP is probably our messiah.	
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Hey everybody,
 
Since this thread doesn't really have any focused feedback, I'm going to go ahead and lock it up. If you have specific, action-oriented feedback be sure to post it in the appropriate section. Thanks!	
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