121436-from-a-perspective-of-a-noobie

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So I managed to convince my friend to get Wildstar.  He is by no means a noob when it comes to games but he's more of the Skyrim explorer type of gamer.
 
Here are some things I've noted through his play experience (currently level 14)
 
He arrives in a new area, ready to go through his quest log and start knocking down quests, suddenly "Challenge accepted, kill so and so mob in less than 3 minutes" He runs around try to kill them (believing challenges are important) and gets the feeling he's being rushed through. Before he knows it he's gone way off the beaten path and gets sort of lost and unsure where to go. Once I told him challenges are repeatable and don't mean anything, he was cool with it.
 
Suggestion -  Give players an option to accept a challenge before hand rather than it automatically starting. Or if that's too much of a change, have a little check box on the challenge pop up that says "Automatically accept challenges"
 
The Minimap is tiny. He didn't know he could expand it
 
Suggestion - Default minimap to large or have the resize arrow glowing to get the attention of new players
 
Constantly pressing 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 1 1 1 2 2 2 made his wrist sore. After I told him about Hold to continue casting his combat QoL increased significantly
 
Suggestion - Hold to continue casting should be the default setting
 
Quests on the map are confusing. Multiple 1s (two different quests sharing #1 on the map) and they change around (not entirely sure, maybe distance?)
 
Suggestion - World story quests, Zone quests and tasks should not share the same numbers. I would give World story quests a unique symbol instead of a number and then combine all the other types of quests into just quests and number them based on level.
 
When using the arrow to guide you, some quests will take you to an area then will simply arrow down into the ground even though the quest objective is not there. Leveling is already a tedious thing, lets not make people have to use google to find the objectives
 
Quest text. Pretty sure Carbine is using some kind of pop up quest thing. I'm not sure since I've had the classic text addon since before launch. If they are still using the pop up thing, get rid of it and go with classic text.
 
That's about it so far. As I said, he's only level 14 so I'll update this if I hear any more criticisms	
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Completely agree with your three suggestions. 
Basic stuff really.	
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Constantly pressing 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 1 1 1 2 2 2 made his wrist sore. After I told him about Hold to continue casting his combat QoL increased significantly
 
Suggestion - Hold to continue casting should be the default setting
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The quest log shouldn't be listing multiple quests under the same number.  However, if there are multiple singular objectives for the same quest, they will show up with the same number.
 
I'm not sure hold-to-cast should be the default (since it's nonstandard for MMORPGs), but I recommend it for pretty much everyone so I can't say that's a bad idea.
 
Really, if anything would really help here, it would be a bit more clear icons for customizing the UI.  ElvUI had a great system as an addon, where you entered a mode where you saw all your windows and could move them, then locked them in place.  It wouldn't hurt to have an "edit UI" mode where you could click and drag, resize, and change settings on all the little windows individually without having to hunt through the menus looking for what actually controls your text size.  Hell, you could set different text sizes if you managed it that way.	
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No, the default should remain as every other game in the industry has. There are some characters that i use that on, and some I do not, so having it default on for everyone is not the fix-all you seem to think it is.
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The quest thing always bothered me.  The number shouldn't change on the map.  Its really confusing when you've set your mind to run to all the 1's on the map only to find out that the 1 is not the quest you thought it was a few minutes ago.  Keep the quest numbers the same no matter where you are on map.
 
 
 
 	
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			Definitely agree even though I'm doing quests with addons guiding my direction towards objects and npcs.Can't imagine without that AND playing the game smoothly WITHOUT thinking probably quit it.	
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The quest thing always bothered me.  The number shouldn't change on the map.  Its really confusing when you've set your mind to run to all the 1's on the map only to find out that the 1 is not the quest you thought it was a few minutes ago.  Keep the quest numbers the same no matter where you are on map.
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There's actually an option in the settings to change how the quest helper sorts quests. Default is nearest to farthest, but there are other options if you don't want your numbers to change.
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The quest tracker and map system in this game is bad, like really bad.
 
I can't believe the map doesn't center on you and snap to you when you open it, no matter how far zoomed in on the map you are it should snap to your location the instant you open it.
This is the basic stuff that Carbine fails and at needs to fix.
 
Also the fact that the map takes up the entire screen is ridiculous. Make the zone/world map a large window and make the ghost map the full overlay.	
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The quest tracker and map system in this game is bad, like really bad.
 
I can't believe the map doesn't center on you and snap to you when you open it, no matter how far zoomed in on the map you are it should snap to your location the instant you open it.
This is the basic stuff that Carbine fails and at needs to fix.
 
Also the fact that the map takes up the entire screen is ridiculous. Make the zone/world map a large window and make the ghost map the full overlay.
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....You can hold to continue casting? I swear I have just learnt this.
 
(Slinks off in shame with sore fingers)
 
:D	
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It might be best to sort them by a hard number by default because that's how other games tend to do it.  I'm a proponent of starting new players off with the most familiar UI, even if it's not the best.  Otherwise there wouldn't be keys used to turn your character.
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Yea. I appreciate what CRB was trying to do with the dynamic sorting, but it really gets confusing with the numbering and stuff moving around. I'd prefer the fixed numbering.
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I know that you can hold to continue casting.... but I like to click o.O
 
I think I built up my finger musculature as a hardcore Mattock user in Mass Effect :P	
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....You can hold to continue casting? I swear I have just learnt this.
 
(Slinks off in shame with sore fingers)
 
 :D
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			The "gear" icon that appear on objects should have a special icon for the challenges. Most of the time I think an interactive object is part of a quest ... and then a challenge starts.	
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and for *cupcake*s sake why doesn't it say what level people are beside their name?  I shouldn't have to inspect someone to figure out what level someone is.  You can't even tell the level of people in your own group!  Was this an oversight or some underlying way to try to make you not care about what level people are or something? 
 
 	
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I know that you can hold to continue casting.... but I like to click o.O
 
I think I built up my finger musculature as a hardcore Mattock user in Mass Effect :P
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I recommend this to everyone, but let your friend know about the Razer Nostromo or Orbweaver (Or other brands. I think Logitech has their own version?)
It's a bit easier to get used to compared to say, doing everything from the Naga, and just works so fantastically!
I still use a Razer ... adder I think? (I just know there's only 6 buttons on the side, so I don't hit any on accident) for miscellaneous functions, but I'm kinda odd like that. In a perfect world, extra
peripherals wouldn't be necessary, but man do they make a difference!	
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I recommend this to everyone, but let your friend know about the Razer Nostromo or Orbweaver (Or other brands. I think Logitech has their own version?)
It's a bit easier to get used to compared to say, doing everything from the Naga, and just works so fantastically!
I still use a Razer ... adder I think? (I just know there's only 6 buttons on the side, so I don't hit any on accident) for miscellaneous functions, but I'm kinda odd like that. In a perfect world, extra
peripherals wouldn't be necessary, but man do they make a difference!
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The Nostromo/Orbweaver/External keypads are complete wastes of money and effort, they do nothing to help and add an extra level of complexity and expense to a game that Already has customizable keymapping.
What people should be looking into instead is a mechanical keyboard.
Why? Keypads are not part of the native set up and you have to remove both your hands from your keyboard to be able to utilize them.
 
Instead the suggestion for a Naga/G600, IS a fantastic idea.
Why?
a Naga/G600, is a mouse, part of the natural/native setup of a PC. You require no extra extensive devices to implement one into your native setup, because it is a mouse.
Plus its already suited to being customized with your keybind set up.
 
Mechanical keyboard+MMORPG mouse is the best possible solution.
 
If anyone is interested a full guide can be found here: https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/32650-utilizing-the-naga-with-wildstarnagag600/
 
Why would you want to make your setup less synergetic, more complex, with no gain in return?
Wouldn't you rather make it more streamlined and greater utility without adding an extra device or level of complexity?
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Agree...got an Orbweaver myself and it's taking some getting used to because I've played keyboard and mouse for oo 20 years or so but you have your whole LAS under your fingers and movement on your thumb..it makes a lot of sense until you have a brain fart and your brain decides to switch back to keyboard and mouse mode for no apparent reason!! :P
 
On top of that if you want to chat etc you have a keyboard there to just type on, it's not like you bin your keyboard when you get an orbweaver!	
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Agree...got an Orbweaver myself and it's taking some getting used to because I've played keyboard and mouse for oo 20 years or so but you have your whole LAS under your fingers and movement on your thumb..it makes a lot of sense until you have a brain fart and your brain decides to switch back to keyboard and mouse mode for no apparent reason!! :P
 
On top of that if you want to chat etc you have a keyboard there to just type on, it's not like you bin your keyboard when you get an orbweaver!
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This has been bothering me a lot on my esper. The annoying part is if I turn on hold to continue casting, it really messes with how Soothe works. >_< There's no winning as an esper.
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Isn't the industry standard, you press the button, the skill fires? In wildstar the skill doesn't fire until you let go of the key. So awkward.
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I recommend this to everyone, but let your friend know about the Razer Nostromo or Orbweaver (Or other brands. I think Logitech has their own version?)
It's a bit easier to get used to compared to say, doing everything from the Naga, and just works so fantastically!
I still use a Razer ... adder I think? (I just know there's only 6 buttons on the side, so I don't hit any on accident) for miscellaneous functions, but I'm kinda odd like that. In a perfect world, extra
peripherals wouldn't be necessary, but man do they make a difference!
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The Nostromo/Orbweaver/External keypads are complete wastes of money and effort, they do nothing to help and add an extra level of complexity and expense to a game that Already has customizable keymapping.
What people should be looking into instead is a mechanical keyboard.
Why? Keypads are not part of the native set up and you have to remove both your hands from your keyboard to be able to utilize them.
 
Instead the suggestion for a Naga/G600, IS a fantastic idea.
Why?
a Naga/G600, is a mouse, part of the natural/native setup of a PC. You require no extra extensive devices to implement one into your native setup, because it is a mouse.
Plus its already suited to being customized with your keybind set up.
 
Mechanical keyboard+MMORPG mouse is the best possible solution.
 
If anyone is interested a full guide can be found here: https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/32650-utilizing-the-naga-with-wildstarnagag600/
 
Why would you want to make your setup less synergetic, more complex, with no gain in return?
Wouldn't you rather make it more streamlined and greater utility without adding an extra device or level of complexity?
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My advice would be to just get a keyboard that fits your hands best (there are some huge keyboards out there) and bind a mouse button to autorun.
 
My LAS looks like this:  1234BQEF - R tilde , then ctrl / shift modifiers for alternate bars, then I also have gadget innate on a mouse macro, as well as push to talk
Movement is just WASD and mouse rightclick hold.  Pretty good setup for PvP, but you might run into issues for PvE considering how much less movement you need to do
 
I use a mechanical keyboard and a steelseries sensei mouse.  If I want to type, I just press an autorun bind and type, or I just type with my left hand entirely.  It's easier to learn how to type with 1 hand than learn an entirely new controller imo.	
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If anything, I like that it almost feels like you get to play on a controller without making any of the sacrifices. If I typed a lot during combat and the combat system was slower (like in EVE) that would be one thing, but in Wildstar there's no way I can stop in the middle of combat and type anything more than one or two words before I need to get back on the job. There's just too much going on at any one time. Wildstar is a game that especially benefits from having something like a left hand array to streamline everything.
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Vic, do you find its hard to move accurately while at the same time spamming abilities with the same hand? Just kind of imagining it, if I'm spamming multiple keys (abilities) with my left fingers while trying to control movement with my left thumb, my thumb seems to move uncontrollably lol
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Quest text. Pretty sure Carbine is using some kind of pop up quest thing. I'm not sure since I've had the classic text addon since before launch. If they are still using the pop up thing, get rid of it and go with classic text.
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It's one of the best. Let me know what you think
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I have no idea how I didn't know about this add-on! Now I need it. xD
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My only issue with this Fran is your thumb can only be on 1 movement button. So say you are moving forward and you want to strafe left, when you take your thumb off forward to strafe your character will stop moving briefly
 
This makes it feel clunky/slower to me.
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APM..... MMORPG....
 
ahem	
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APM..... MMORPG....
 
ahem
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I did.  APM is completely irrelevant in a game such as this.
 
Only things that are important as far as keybinds go is making it so that your buttons arent in awkward positions while you move, and that you don't use double-tap to dash.  Whatever is comfortable enough for that to get the job done is fine.	
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Watch my video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18MlT9Du4ic
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I did.  APM is completely irrelevant in a game such as this.
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No, not at all.  Think of it like a Dualshock controller; you've got those shoulder buttons you're hitting but your thumb moves independently.  What I think is weird for people who don't use them is you're used to using a regular keyboard, and your hand has to sort of "hover" over the keys.  On a left-hand array, your whole hand and wrist is essentially resting against the mechanism, which is fully adjustable.  Here, this is an orbweaver...
 
You can see where your wrist and hand go.  You'll find you're pretty capable of complex motions with all your fingers as long as you don't need to steady your hand.  Actually, because of this, it's possible for me to run in a sprint, dive throw an interrupt (which I've bound to the button sitting below the thumbstick) and immediately have my attack button held (of course I use hold-to-cast).  It's especially useful on my Spellslinger, where you'll sometimes have to Gate, roll for distance, whip around, and immediately have charged shot going when you come up.  As long as movement is on the thumb, the key to roll is on one finger (or your scroll wheel in my case), you turn with the mouse, and your charged shot is under your finger, you're literally able to do that with zero finger movements to different keys.
 
Contrast that to a keyboard setup, where forward and backward are generally controlled with one finger, left and right are two others (and you need both to walk forward and strafe, which I don't on the thumbstick), another has to be bound to the dash if you don't have it on your mouse, one needs to be on sprint, and all of those double up on the ability keys in the stock UI.  Even on an MMO mouse, most of your abilities are still controlled by one finger (your thumb on the keypad on the mouse).  It's a huge mechanical advantage to have your left hand fingers not even NEED a WASD or ESDF set.  All your thumb usually goes in the stock keybinds is jump.  By tying all movement to your thumb instead, imagine how you could bind your keyboard differently if WASD or ESDF wasn't even a concern.
 
It took a little while to get used to considering how long I've played MMORPGs, but I was more fluid than ever within a few hours.  Now I can't even really go back; it feels so unnatural now to try and hit a key like 3 when I'm using fingers to move.
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Also using lockdown so I face where my mouse goes.
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			your [MB2] is my [tab].  Otherwise, same functionality.	
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I disagree, this game has quite the focus on engaging your abilities as fast as possible.
Far more than most MMORPGs.
 
I was Zerg in SC2.
APM requirement is relative, WildStar has a much higher action execution speed than most MMOs.
But in the end I've discovered that I have lower DPS playing with hold to cast than I do APMing the keys as quickly as I can.
 
Also the center bezel, it doesn't cover up any of the image, so no information is lost, meaning the brain can easily understand what's going on.
It's really simple actually, it was awkward at first but the panoramic view is amazing. and the far greater screen space and ability to spread out your UI without shrinking it and even increasing the size of some elements to fully realize their potential is amazing.
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your [MB2] is my [tab].  Otherwise, same functionality.
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Yeah basically except the MB2 toggle thing just makes it a native key function change rather than consuming an additional key.
I still use TAB in this game to cycle targets when running into mob packs in raids to watch the casts of the mobs I'm attacking.
 
I have a preference of making things as native to the core set up as possible.
IMO and experience, enhancing the native set up is always better than adding an extra level of complexity to the system.
 
Same with programming, if you can do it within one line of code, why make two lines to do the same thing?
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It would just irk me in all the ways I think, if I played on 2 monitors.  I need a monitor for gaming and I need a monitor for browsing / music / netflix etc, lol!
 
In all honesty here though, I really don't feel like Wildstar has a much higher APM requirement than most MMOs, if at all.  I mostly PvP, so when I compare it to GW2, I think Wildstar is lower, World of Warcraft, its lower (thanks to targeting, macros, more skills etc), and its much lower for RTS.    MOBAs are low APM, FFXIV was low APM, but I think that overall Wildstar is a rather slow and deliberate game for APM.
 
What would you define as high APM for Wildstar?
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As far as that center bezel goes, I run with 2 monitors with different purposes, and often exclude that center bezel from my awareness, but what I was implying was more of an opinion.  I'm sure that my brain would figure it out eventually, but the idea of playing with something inhibiting my view of the center of the screen would irk me.  I think I would splurge and pick up a 3rd monitor if that were the case, just so I didn't have my screen interrupted.
 
As far as the APM / DPS issue goes, I'm pretty sure you're confusing the need for high APM with the limits of hold to continue casting.  From my understanding, hold to continue casting has a little bit of a delay built in, to queue another ability etc.  For instance, spamming your builder with hold to continue casting would produce less dps than just smashing it with your finger, regardless of if you smashed 3 or 5 times a second.
 
So a conclusion would be that turning off hold to cast would be beneficial if you could actively play at a certain APM.
... but the requirement of this game to reach optimal DPS I think has a lower APM requirement than other games, for instance.
 
I think that you could potentially get more out of this game than most people are with a higher APM, but I don't think that a high APM is required to be optimal in this game.	
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To be fair though, you don't need an orbweaver to accomplish this.  I have all my abilities bound on my Logitech G700, and I only use the keyboard for moving forward and strafing.  Also using lockdown so I face where my mouse goes.  1, 2, 3, 4 aren't far away, and those are used for consumables for me.  I can't imagine any other hardware making an improvement on it.  At best, it would be equal.
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As far as that center bezel goes, I run with 2 monitors with different purposes, and often exclude that center bezel from my awareness, but what I was implying was more of an opinion.  I'm sure that my brain would figure it out eventually, but the idea of playing with something inhibiting my view of the center of the screen would irk me.  I think I would splurge and pick up a 3rd monitor if that were the case, just so I didn't have my screen interrupted.
 
As far as the APM / DPS issue goes, I'm pretty sure you're confusing the need for high APM with the limits of hold to continue casting.  From my understanding, hold to continue casting has a little bit of a delay built in, to queue another ability etc.  For instance, spamming your builder with hold to continue casting would produce less dps than just smashing it with your finger, regardless of if you smashed 3 or 5 times a second.
 
So a conclusion would be that turning off hold to cast would be beneficial if you could actively play at a certain APM.
... but the requirement of this game to reach optimal DPS I think has a lower APM requirement than other games, for instance.
 
I think that you could potentially get more out of this game than most people are with a higher APM, but I don't think that a high APM is required to be optimal in this game.
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That's the thing, though, I don't use the keyboard for moving forward OR strafing.  I turn with the mouse.  My thumb does ALL the movement, strafing, moving backwards, and moving forwards.  All most people's thumbs do is hit the spacebar on a keyboard.  More than that, my thumb isn't controlling all my abilities, I have four fingers to handle that.
 
So where your fingers are resting on at least three movement keys and you're then trusting your right hand to use the abilities, I have an entire hand sans thumb dedicated to those abilities (and I'm actually in the market for an MMO mouse that isn't on that grid keypad pattern on the right thumb because I really dislike how those mouses work; I keep getting lost in position).  I'm not saying it's the only way to min-max your abilities, but it gets a lot more functionality out of your left hand.  A lot of people think they're useless or over-expensive pieces of technology, and they're just not.  It's been easily worth the money I paid for it in terms of ease of use.
 
I'm not saying it's the only way to achieve results, but that array has been a gamechanger for me in ways that previous MMO mouses I've tried and different keybinds just haven't been.  All the abilities are at multiple fingertips in a 20 key array on the Orbweaver, none of them have to be movement keys since I don't move with those.  Best yet, the Orbweaver itself isn't moving, they keys remain and aren't subject to me also having to move my hand.  My arm is at complete rest most of the time.
 
It's one of those things I couldn't imagine gaming without anymore.  I mean, if people can't afford it, I wouldn't call it as essential as your GPU.  But if someone's got money to burn to squeeze a little more comfort and probably performance out of their rig, I'd even recommend spending the extra money to get a left-hand array over an MMO mouse.  I mean, Logitech's G13, their gaming keypad, is actually cheaper than a G700 mouse by about 20 dollars on Newegg.
 
But your mileage may vary.  It does take a bit to get used to.  It's half-controller, really, so I'd say it took me a few hours to get adjusted and a whole night before I completely eclipsed my previous performance.  I do think, personally, it's a lot easier and worth the extra money to have that functionality on the left hand rather than the right, but that may simply be a personal preference.  Having done both, I feel like it's a lot easier to reallocate motion control to a thumb most keyboard users use for one purpose than to reallocate everything else to the mouse hand.  Not that MMO mouses don't have their proponents or place in the world, and I wouldn't mind a few extra buttons there for redundancy, but given a choice between getting a mouse with more buttons and a left-hand array, even if it costs a few extra dollars, I'd still go Orbweaver over an MMO mouse.  Everything has their drawbacks, but I think it's a bit easier to deal with having my abilities tied ergonomically to keys that aren't moving when I have to whip around after a roll-through.
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Wait what?
 
I was talking about the group window.  99% of all mmo's have the level to the right of the group member's name.  Wildstar you have to inspect people in your group to find out what level they are if you invited randoms for pugs.	
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It's one of those things I couldn't imagine gaming without anymore.  I mean, if people can't afford it, I wouldn't call it as essential as your GPU.  But if someone's got money to burn to squeeze a little more comfort and probably performance out of their rig, I'd even recommend spending the extra money to get a left-hand array over an MMO mouse.  I mean, Logitech's G13, their gaming keypad, is actually cheaper than a G700 mouse by about 20 dollars on Newegg.
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At this point we are splitting hairs with what we are most used to.  I have no problems moving the mouse and hitting buttons with my thumb and index finger.  and hitting the 1-4 buttons is not constant since they are just consumables.  I only meant to clear the air that a piece of equipment like the orbweaver isn't a necessity.  I DO think I would have a problem if I had to rely on the keyboard numbers for abilities though.
 
@FranBunnyFFXII - You made me realize the error of binding the lockdown toggle to [tab].  I had that set because I was used to it when I played Tera.  I switched that up after you pointed that out.  Thanks for setting me straight.	
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I have a G13 which I don't use.  My 'desk' stinks.  The surface is too high so I need to use a keyboard tray and it's not big enough for the keyboard and the keypad.  I found that my hand gets really sweaty on the pad (ew).  Some time after I bought it I got the chance to play with the Naga pad and found that to be far more comfortable.
 
One last thing.  It doesn't emulate a keyboard.  It has it's own cacked up protocol that requires driver support to inject keypresses.  Hilarity ensues when that driver causes a kernel panic. There is no excuse whatsoever for it to -not- send HID keycodes.  Whether their devs are naive or lazy or their management required them to tie it to their software is anybody's guess.
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Their software is used to save your presets to the cloud without using onboard memory.
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GAH.  Oh great I just broke out in hives.
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At this point we are splitting hairs with what we are most used to.  I have no problems moving the mouse and hitting buttons with my thumb and index finger.  and hitting the 1-4 buttons is not constant since they are just consumables.  I only meant to clear the air that a piece of equipment like the orbweaver isn't a necessity.  I DO think I would have a problem if I had to rely on the keyboard numbers for abilities though.
 
@FranBunnyFFXII - You made me realize the error of binding the lockdown toggle to [tab].  I had that set because I was used to it when I played Tera.  I switched that up after you pointed that out.  Thanks for setting me straight.
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Yeah, but then I wouldn't use Logitech for anything if I had a chance.  I really like RAZR.  I haven't gotten to try the Tartarus (the step below the Orbweaver), but I can definitely say that the Orbweaver was worth the money.  It's exceptionally comfortable when you've got it adjusted correctly.
 
Their software is used to save your presets to the cloud without using onboard memory.  Which I guess would be popular for other gamers who travel a lot with their hardware and might reformat more often.  I only play Wildstar and the odd bout of Diablo these days and I only use the one setup for all my classes.  I'd love to just switch it and force it to send HID code, but I'm not sure I'm in the majority.  I've never had an issue with the kernel, though, so I've never had any problems.
 
 
 
Well, if you'd like me to clarify, then no, you can play Wildstar without an Orbweaver.  I mean, I certainly wouldn't, and I've had a chance to play extensively with both an MMO mouse (a RAZR Naga) and the Orbweaver and I prefer the latter if I could only have one.  I certainly wouldn't want to play without it anymore, but I played with decent performance on a stock UI and set of keybinds for months.  It's not necessary, but it is definitely worthwhile.
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			you kids and their overpriced toys....	
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you kids and their overpriced toys....
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you kids and their overpriced toys....
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			Yeaaaaa... some of us can't really afford to drop $100 on a keyboard.	
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Yeaaaaa... some of us can't really afford to drop $100 on a keyboard.
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The center of my life is food and a roof over my head! xD Dropping $100 on anything for fun is a decision that takes a loooooong time to save up for. And then the question is, why not just put that into savings for the inevitable day when something in my car breaks, or one of us gets sick. >_<
 
Don't doubt it's a nice keyboard. Maybe someday. :)	
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Yeaaaaa... some of us can't really afford to drop $100 on a keyboard.
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The biggest flaw in the arguement for the orbweaver/keypad is and always will be without any debate is that it's Auxillary and an extra layer of complexity to the native set up.
No matter what you do say or want to argue for it, an orbweaver will ALWAYS be an extra item to a setup, and it's not native to the system.
 
If you get a keypad, you must remove your hand from the native keyboard to utilize it.
And that's the big chink in the armor for an orbweaver.
A naga/g600 on the other hand is an expansion of the Native set up, and no matter how you look at it enhancing the native setup will always produce more functionality without elaborating the layer of complexity.
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Actually, the entire point behind the Orbweaver and left hand arrays like it is that it's a simplification of the system you use for actually playing.  The entire idea is that a keyboard is not laid out to play a game on very well, it's based on a relatively ancient method of document production.  Unless you're actually typing a lot in combat, a left hand array essentially gives you everything you need, more than what your keyboard is capable of, and nothing you don't need.  A left-hand array is a complete rearrangement of how your left hand functions by turning it into a gaming controller, where adding buttons to the mouse is literally adding complexity to an existing piece of hardware.  An MMO mouse adds complexity directly, that's how it works.  The Orbweaver I use replaces the keyboard in the equation with something far more efficient.
 
If I tended to type in combat, you'd be absolutely correct.  However, especially considering I main a warrior, I don't tend to stop mid combat to chat.  If I have to communicate during combat for some reason (which is rare) we use teamspeak.  Since I don't need the function a keyboard is actually meant to fill during combat, it's a huge benefit to me in actual gameplay.  I'm not constantly switching back and forth.
 
 
 
You don't play bass outside the game that I know of.  You want to know what it's like to have to play Type O Negative and hammer on a B-string for a few hours, then get on a regular plunger keyboard and have to bottom your key out on every strike?  It's like hitting a concrete bollard with a hammer.
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It's still auxillary to the native setup.
No matter what arguement you have, or want to say, the fact still remains, it's auxillary and an extra layer of complexity to the system.
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The center of my life is food and a roof over my head! xD Dropping $100 on anything for fun is a decision that takes a loooooong time to save up for. And then the question is, why not just put that into savings for the inevitable day when something in my car breaks, or one of us gets sick. >_<
 
Don't doubt it's a nice keyboard. Maybe someday. :)
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False equivlency.
A Mic does not require your hands to move out of your native setup to be utilized.
A mic does not utilzie the same part of your body to provide utility.
 
A keypad DOES.
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You're ignoring the point I've already made.  It's not a false equivalency, because I do not need a keyboard in combat.  There is nothing on my keyboard that isn't done better on my keypad, so my hand would only ever leave my keypad if I was going to type on it.
 
So, if you'd like, I could recommend not getting one if you type a lot in combat in Wildstar.  If you don't, it's a huge upgrade because I do not, in fact, shift my hand off the keyboard to use my keypad because I don't touch my keyboard unless it's not an issue.
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			Whoa whoa whoa whoa guys, lets not get into a fight over each others personal gear preferences. To each's own, ya know?	
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You=/=example of native setup expectations.
and it IS false equivalency.
 
You are an Anecdote, not a reflective sample, 99.9% of the world expects a set up of a mouse and keyboard. a .01% representation does not provide a proper sample.
 
And again, no matter what, the fact still stands.
A keybad is auxillary, its not native.
 
A mic does not require the usage of your hands for input, a keypad does.
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			This topic has amused me, tho I've only really skimmed it. I recently purchased a G600 mouse, and last night, took the plunge and tried to teach myself how to move with my left hand using WASD, and using the keypad on the mouse for my abilities. 45 minutes later, my mouse hand was EXHAUSTED. I swapped back to my normal mouse-for-movement, keyboard for button pushing, and within minutes, the ache in my mouse hand went away and I was much more comfortable. I'm not sure I can un-learn more than 15 years of using the mouse for movement, and left hand for abilities. I seem to do ok, but my one gripe about being tied to mouse movement is moving backwards requires a keypress. I am gonna swap ability keys on the mouse for movement keys, and give that a try, see if it is a bit easier on my mouse hand.	
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This topic has amused me, tho I've only really skimmed it. I recently purchased a G600 mouse, and last night, took the plunge and tried to teach myself how to move with my left hand using WASD, and using the keypad on the mouse for my abilities. 45 minutes later, my mouse hand was EXHAUSTED. I swapped back to my normal mouse-for-movement, keyboard for button pushing, and within minutes, the ache in my mouse hand went away and I was much more comfortable. I'm not sure I can un-learn more than 15 years of using the mouse for movement, and left hand for abilities. I seem to do ok, but my one gripe about being tied to mouse movement is moving backwards requires a keypress. I am gonna swap ability keys on the mouse for movement keys, and give that a try, see if it is a bit easier on my mouse hand.
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The "gear" icon that appear on objects should have a special icon for the challenges. Most of the time I think an interactive object is part of a quest ... and then a challenge starts.
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https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/32650-utilizing-the-naga-with-wildstarnagag600/
 
Here's the G600(naga) guide for you. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions, I can also get on Skype/Teamspeak/Munble if you'd like some help.
 
 
completely missing the point that a mouse is native, MMORPG mouse or not.
A keypad is not native.
 
"This is a flat-out increase in complexity."
It does not increase the layer of complexity because an MMORPG mouse is part of the native setup.
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If you think that a gaming keypad is somehow more complicated than playing on a keyboard, there's not much I'll be able to do to change your mind.  I'm not sure how a programmable mouse is any less native than a programmable left-hand array.  The RAZR Naga uses the same kind of interface for programming that my Orbweaver uses (Synapse).  It runs through the same USB ports, and runs the same kind of firmware.  Neither is in any way relevant, since I've never had an issue ever happen with either piece of hardware on the kernel.  If your point is that you're worried there's going to be some kind of conflict on the kernel, then maybe an Orbweaver is definitely not for you.
 
I'm really not understanding how that makes a left hand array an absolute downgrade as you've stated.  Everything I've said isn't missing the point, it's making a point that it's an absolute simplification of actually playing the game, which is the important part of using it.  It simply is built to be used as a gaming controller, a keyboard is not.  It is a simpler piece of hardware to use.  If you'd like to dismiss those arguments as irrelevant, I'd suppose there's not much point in having this conversation.  The entire reason an Orbweaver or any left hand array like it is worthwhile is because it makes gameplay so much easier, especially doing complex motions and key presses.  That's why I bought it and that's why I've been saying that I wouldn't go back now and stop using it.  For all the reasons I've listed, in actual play, it's a huge improvement over a traditional keyboard.
 
If that's not the paramount concern for you, you can dismiss it for whatever reasons you'd like.  It's extremely effective and, given the prospect of having a simple three button mouse and a normal keyboard, and having to choose between an Orbweaver and a Naga, having used both extensively at one point or another, I would choose the Orbweaver.  It's exceptionally effective at reducing a game of binds and addons to make the keyboard and mouse combination work to simply using the Orbweaver.  In game terms, adding more buttons to the right hand, and mostly all under the thumb, is not as effective as evenly distributing the keys underneath the fingers and adding a thumbstick under the left thumb.
 
At the very least, I never needed to read a guide on how to effectively use the Orbweaver, it was pretty obvious how to improve my game with it.
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I think mouse buttons are worthless beyond maybe 1-2 and push to talk.
 
Putting all your skills / movement on your mouse is just asking to get killed in pvp, lol.	
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https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/32650-utilizing-the-naga-with-wildstarnagag600/
 
Here's the G600(naga) guide for you. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions, I can also get on Skype/Teamspeak/Munble if you'd like some help.
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WOW
 
all of you just stop!
 
gear prefs are not truth
 
just what you like
 
maybe not what others like
 
We might agree that some things work well for some, but not for others.
 
I have found that a MMO mouse is nice, but not perfect. While I would like one of the units for my left hand....there does not seem to be enough buttons...ie I use many of the keys on a standard qwerty keyboard....
 
while civil conversation is nice, nobody is right when opinion rules.	
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I don't need a guide, but thanks. The point is, I have this mouse, and I won't be using it to put abilities on the mouse, it makes me uncomfortable, makes my hand tired. Everyone is different, and the argument is pointless. People should use what works for them, because switching to "the best" mouse/keypad/keyboard ever just might not work for them. I now know that putting abilities on my mouse is not the answer to making me a more effective mover in combat (thus, better at this game). But the mouse won't go to waste, because I've found that simply adding the strafe buttons to my mouse has made it infinitely easier for me to move around in combat, something I could have done with a "lesser" mouse. It's a good thing I got this one for half price ;)
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I have found that a MMO mouse is nice, but not perfect. While I would like one of the units for my left hand....there does not seem to be enough buttons...ie I use many of the keys on a standard qwerty keyboard....
 
while civil conversation is nice, nobody is right when opinion rules.
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My advice would be to just get a keyboard that fits your hands best (there are some huge keyboards out there) and bind a mouse button to autorun.
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Well, if you'd like, I can go over my setup.
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Current keyboard layout for MMOs is an extension of the old FPS games. For the FPS it was actually good, because they don't require many keys. But for MMOs which usually have the full 12 keys for skills, without counting the other support one's, it became a pain.
 
But any PC user that considers himself a PC Gamer already knows that in PC Games:
1. Key bindings are far from optimal.
2. An optional hardware like specially designed gaming mouse or keypad is highly recommended.
3. A good CPU & GPU combo. Don't expect PlayStation 4 performance with a cheap sub $100 bucks video card.
 
Unless of course you have been living under a rock, or your rig was build for Facebook.	
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Thanks Vic..Still on he fence. I've been known to re-bind almost every key on my qwerty....I guess I'lljust have to go to a store and see how it feels and decide if I want to give it a try or not. The ergonomics are the top attraction for me.
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			@ Vic That looks like a boss drop from the game (picture)  :)	
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