102231-more-content-you-cannot-pug-sabotage

== Content ==
			
According to Carbine, the new battleground called Sabotage, will require an extremely high degree of Coordination (A.K.A. do not PuG or it will be a complete mess).
 
It seems that Wildstar is becoming more and more a game that you need a premade, organized group for everything, that uses TS/Vent or other VoIP. You already needed more Coordination in Wildstar Battlegrounds than in Battlegrounds in other games, but now it seems that Carbine is dialing up the scale even more.
 
So now you will need a premade group for Dungeons because of the Coordination requirement, Battlegrounds and (of course) Raids (which in my opinion is the only game content that should require a premade group with VoIP).
 
While I don't mind that there is a lot of content that especially requires premade groups (if you don't want it to be a mess), I think Wildstar's biggest problem is that there is nowhere enough worthwhile content that you can just log in and do. I think that's a terrible direction, I wish Carbine had come out and said that you will need premade guild groups to do all endgame content in the game, then a lot of us would not have bothered with the game. I thought the point of the LFG tool was to be usable and not be a terrible idea to use.
 
Here I want to make a point about the "Coordination" requirement (aka premade groups with VoIP) that Carbine seems to have adopted for all of its content. Requiring Coordination does not make the game more hardcore: it is NOT more challenging for you, the individual. It is just a superficial mechanic to require premade groups and VoIP that does not really add anything to the game. So you can be an awesome and hardcore player, but your contributions are insignificant because you cannot carry anyone else (and especially not the group), no matter how good you are. I would say that the Coordination requirement is LESS hardcore, not more.
 
Thoughts?
 
To Moderators: I want to discuss about the apparent premade group requirement of the majority of content in Wildstar and its overall direction. This has nothing to do with other threads on Sabotage.	
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But all my pre-made friends are quitting and I have to pug to find new peeps.
 
What do I do now?	
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			Well in PvP MMOs there are will always be carriers to carry all those not so good teammates to victory so for the hardcore players it is hardcore. For everyone else it's just another game.	
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Pugging is just a terrible idea in Wildstar. Its becoming more and more apparent that you will need to spend your evening getting together premade groups instead of playing the game.
 
Ironically, I seriously thought that Carbine would have learned their lesson by now and try to add at least some content for people who just want to play the game.	
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Coordination doesn't require a pre-made using VOIP. It requires communication. Something frustratingly lacking in your typical pug. Does a pre-made with VOIP have an advantage? Sure, but it's hardly an insurmountable one. Learn to communicate with your team. Formulate a plan before the game starts, don't just sit there during the 1:30 set up.
 
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So you can be an awesome and hardcore player, but your contributions are insignificant because you cannot carry anyone else (and especially not the group), no matter how good you are. I would say that the Coordination requirement is LESS hardcore, not more.
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Pugging is just a terrible idea in Wildstar. Its becoming more and more apparent that you will need to spend your evening getting together premade groups instead of playing the game.
 
Ironically, I seriously thought that Carbine would have learned their lesson by now and try to add at least some content for people who just want to play the game.
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Um, the way it should be? You would prefer a system where coordination is worthless and one person (SERIOUSLY ONE PERSON?!) can carry the team? Your idea of balance is laughable.
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Coordination doesn't require a pre-made using VOIP. It requires communication. Something frustratingly lacking in your typical pug. Does a pre-made with VOIP have an advantage? Sure, but it's hardly an insurmountable one. Learn to communicate with your team. Formulate a plan before the game starts, don't just sit there during the 1:30 set up.
 
 
Um, the way it should be? You would prefer a system where coordination is worthless and one person (SERIOUSLY ONE PERSON?!) can carry the team? Your idea of balance is laughable.
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Seriously it does happen in other PvP MMOs as long as there are a few decent players in your team and the other team are just random players and not a hardcore guild you can actually pull it off.
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Using voice chat doesn't work because not all of your teammates will have it. Always better to use ingame chat and communicate with them.
 
I played WOT MMO and a super good player is able to carry to his team to victory although sometimes his team is so bad it makes no difference.	
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It wasn't always like this, either.  It was assumed in ye olde dayf of MMORPGs that you were going to assemble a PUG by calling out into the general chat or LFG channel to get one together, communicate about how it was all going to work, and do everything in your power to make it work because, if you didn't, replacing members manually was a *cupcake*.
 
Back in the modern day, in the days of cross-server PUGging in WoW, you can just assume that people know what they're supposed to be doing in any given dungeon or battleground and, if they aren't, they're easily replaced and expendable.  You don't have a friends list like a rolodex of good tanks, healers, and DPS.  You barely know who you play with.
 
That doesn't work as well in Wildstar, though I think they're still closer to new-age WoW than vanilla WoW in that respect.  The content is technically PUGgabble, but you learn very quickly that, especially in PVP, a group of people who know what they're doing can survive against an onslaught of keybashers three or four times their size or with twice their item level in gear.  Normally, a little chatter would fix the problem, but most people, from our steady diet of easier content that allows you to drop in and drop out without even saying 'hello' has spoiled most people into thinking that Wildstar PUGs will work that same way.
 
They don't.  A DPS that can't keep track of the healer and tank so he can get in the middle of heals can make life miserable, and it's even worse in PVP where a medic and a good mix of damage dealers can eviscerate uncoordinated groups of solo players.  People have to learn to at least talk and come up with some kind of plan of action.
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It wasn't always like this, either.  It was assumed in ye olde dayf of MMORPGs that you were going to assemble a PUG by calling out into the general chat or LFG channel to get one together, communicate about how it was all going to work, and do everything in your power to make it work because, if you didn't, replacing members manually was a *cupcake*.
 
Back in the modern day, in the days of cross-server PUGging in WoW, you can just assume that people know what they're supposed to be doing in any given dungeon or battleground and, if they aren't, they're easily replaced and expendable.  You don't have a friends list like a rolodex of good tanks, healers, and DPS.  You barely know who you play with.
 
That doesn't work as well in Wildstar, though I think they're still closer to new-age WoW than vanilla WoW in that respect.  The content is technically PUGgabble, but you learn very quickly that, especially in PVP, a group of people who know what they're doing can survive against an onslaught of keybashers three or four times their size or with twice their item level in gear.  Normally, a little chatter would fix the problem, but most people, from our steady diet of easier content that allows you to drop in and drop out without even saying 'hello' has spoiled most people into thinking that Wildstar PUGs will work that same way.
 
They don't.  A DPS that can't keep track of the healer and tank so he can get in the middle of heals can make life miserable, and it's even worse in PVP where a medic and a good mix of damage dealers can eviscerate uncoordinated groups of solo players.  People have to learn to at least talk and come up with some kind of plan of action.
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WELL SAID! Makes you wish we could go back to before things got so bad. I used to cherish the communities in the MMOs I haunted, reveling in my encounters with other like-minded individuals. Now I brace myself when dealing with randoms. Nowadays instead of discussing how to improve the situation we're in, people just point fingers, sling insults, and quit.
 
Sad state of affairs really.
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The point is, that based on what Carbine has said, Sabotage  (just like Dungeons) will basically require pre-made groups using VoIP (or at the very least that it would be a terrible idea to PuG it).
 
It does not surprise me that people here do not find a serious problem with it. Pretty much every normal gamer has left the game, which is why most servers are deserted and their economies collapsed.
 
EDIT: fine I made a type, damn auto correct (gramble gramble...)	
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			Teaming up in a MMORPG, oh god no, we wouldny want that....	
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 Pretty much every normal gamer has abundant the game, which is why most servers are deserted and their economies collapsed.
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I hate cross server stuff, I hate having multiple servers people can be jerks and transfer to new one, I hate there's no community in modern games.
 
I liked waaay back in 2004/5 when BG's were server only. You knew who you were fighting against, you could learn their strengths and weaknesses. You knew who you were playing with, you could get used to their playstyles and adapt to working together.
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So what you're saying is the split servers along with random grabfromeveryserver is kind of hurting things because after a match you can't all sit down and talk about what just happened?
 
I hate cross server stuff, I hate having multiple servers people can be jerks and transfer to new one, I hate there's no community in modern games.
 
I liked waaay back in 2004/5 when BG's were server only. You knew who you were fighting against, you could learn their strengths and weaknesses. You knew who you were playing with, you could get used to their playstyles and adapt to working together.
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@Chelley: I can't say cross-server is fully to blame here anymore, though it may be partly responsible. The entire market has shifted heavily towards entitled, "must read guides" attitudes. To the point where people lose their sh!t if you don't know the mechanics of a game in alpha testing, let alone a battleground/instance on live. NO TIME TO TALK TO PEOPLE IN THIS MMO. /facepalm
 
I have no hope for humanity.	
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			This reminds me of random battles in another PvP MMO, where I also lost hope for humanity looking at the number of serious noob mistakes. But I do get to gank less skilful players.	
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Teaming up in a MMORPG, oh god no, we wouldny want that....
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You must not have played Star Wars: The Old Republic cause there is no cross server anything. And if you can`t find anyone or your friends aren`t playing you might as well forget about any group content pvp/pve. You`ll understand that cross server is a must in this day and age.
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			If you want a derp and pug MMO go pick any of the others on the market.  Stop trying to turn this into something it's not.	
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which is why most servers are deserted and their economies collapsed.
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If you want a derp and pug MMO go pick any of the others on the market.  Stop trying to turn this into something it's not.
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You must not have played Star Wars: The Old Republic cause there is no cross server anything. And if you can`t find anyone or your friends aren`t playing you might as well forget about any group content pvp/pve. You`ll understand that cross server is a must in this day and age.
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Fun? Stop trying to make it fun?
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			You know, there is more than enough content in Wildstar that you need a premade group for. I don't see why Carbine has refused to make content that you can successfully PuG.	
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He was probably referring to the OP lol. Eaaaasy on the defensiveness.
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Well, I only know a handful of people still playing.
 
Pugs are usually a good way to meet others.
 
Pugs are kind of the only way to really meet others from your server.
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The point is, that based on what Carbine has said, Sabotage  (just like Dungeons) will basically require pre-made groups using VoIP (or at the very least that it would be a terrible idea to PuG it).
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You know, there is more than enough content in Wildstar that you need a premade group for. I don't see why Carbine has refused to make content that you can successfully PuG.
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Where'd they say this, because from what I've seen, it doesn't look any more complicated than large BGs in WoW. And I know for sure that dungeons don't need a pre-made group or VoiP, just a lack of assholes.
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MuffinMan (I think? don't quote me!) said something about coordination being helpful and he's freaking out lol.
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im confused...the op wants to do endgame things in an MMO...dont most things in MMOs consist of coordinated group activities? im also kinda curious as to when encouraging group participation was a bad thing? also...i dont understand why the OP seems to think theres nothing to do solo at 50... youve got dailies, level up your crafting if you need it, explore, help guildies, roll an alt of the opposing faction, i mean...its not a whole LOT that you can do solo without even being part of a group, it may not be what YOU wanna do, but there are things..
 
also there are other games you can play while waiting for guildies to get online. and if you dont have any friends/guildies then make some. if you pvp exclusively, find a guild that does as well, or even a couple people and form a circle, merge with other circles. noones stopping you from picking your own teammates. 
 
all your issues are easily solved, you just gotta do something about it. stop complaining on here and go be social.	
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Fun? Stop trying to make it fun?
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When you PuG anything in an MMO you do it knowing it’s a gamble – could be a blast, could be torture. When it comes to BGs, as long as the burden of organisation is equal (i.e. a balanced map), then I don’t see the problem. When you hit the PuG button you roll the dice and hope you land in a team of people who know how to win, and want to win, rather than the group of headless chickens.	
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Heres the thing, your idea of fun sound boring to me, so from my pov you are trying to make the game boring.
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Curses.
 
We should give the game real world physics and stuff.
 
Like if you get hit, you get crippled for months and can't leave the hospital for x amount of in game time. #hardcore
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Curses.
 
We should give the game real world physics and stuff.
 
Like if you get hit, you get crippled for months and can't leave the hospital for x amount of in game time. #hardcore
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That makes no sense, and has nothing to do with what i said.
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You know, there is more than enough content in Wildstar that you need a premade group for. I don't see why Carbine has refused to make content that you can successfully PuG.
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Am I some kind of freak of nature in that I've had a pleasant time with PUGS? I won't say ALL my PUGs were nice, but majority have been great(especially after the medal system change)
I shake my head sometimes that I even heard this from my own guild, because:
I've met some very awesome people doing PUGs
I've met people from my own server that I have never seen or heard at all
I've learned things about dungeons and adventures that I or people in my guild didn't know
I actually get better as a player because I know how to play with more play styles and approaches. IN some cases even learn to push my class further to compensate for well when shit hits the fan.
PUGs come with a certain level of expectations and to be honest I go in with the mindset that jsut like with anyone the run/match can either go terribly bad or fraken amazing. I dunno, maybe it's because the "arcade culture" I grew up in had me setup for this stuff already, but whether it was playing with or against a stranger I never got upset and I am so used to just going "Hey how you doing!?" and sadly some folks these days are really quiet, but that doesn't stop me from opening a conversation which usually leads to instructions and such being conveyed.
 
IF there is a problem it seems to come more from people not willing to acknowledge that some folks are jsut assholes and or just....bad players. However in that same respect you're playing an MMO get out there and mingle with people outside of your own little corner, you'd be surprised the people you meet when you PUG.	
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Your version of fun isnt realistic and fun enough, I found it boring and came up with a not-boring thing.
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According to Carbine, the new battleground called Sabotage, will require an extremely high degree of Coordination (A.K.A. do not PuG or it will be a complete mess).
 
It seems that Wildstar is becoming more and more a game that you need a premade, organized group for everything, that uses TS/Vent or other VoIP. You already needed more Coordination in Wildstar Battlegrounds than in Battlegrounds in other games, but now it seems that Carbine is dialing up the scale even more.
 
So now you will need a premade group for Dungeons because of the Coordination requirement, Battlegrounds and (of course) Raids (which in my opinion is the only game content that should require a premade group with VoIP).
 
While I don't mind that there is a lot of content that especially requires premade groups (if you don't want it to be a mess), I think Wildstar's biggest problem is that there is nowhere enough worthwhile content that you can just log in and do. I think that's a terrible direction, I wish Carbine had come out and said that you will need premade guild groups to do all endgame content in the game, then a lot of us would not have bothered with the game. I thought the point of the LFG tool was to be usable and not be a terrible idea to use.
 
Here I want to make a point about the "Coordination" requirement (aka premade groups with VoIP) that Carbine seems to have adopted for all of its content. Requiring Coordination does not make the game more hardcore: it is NOT more challenging for you, the individual. It is just a superficial mechanic to require premade groups and VoIP that does not really add anything to the game. So you can be an awesome and hardcore player, but your contributions are insignificant because you cannot carry anyone else (and especially not the group), no matter how good you are. I would say that the Coordination requirement is LESS hardcore, not more.
 
Thoughts?
 
To Moderators: I want to discuss about the apparent premade group requirement of the majority of content in Wildstar and its overall direction. This has nothing to do with other threads on Sabotage.
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Am I some kind of freak of nature in that I've had a pleasant time with PUGS? I won't say ALL my PUGs were nice, but majority have been great(especially after the medal system change)
I shake my head sometimes that I even heard this from my own guild, because:
I've met some very awesome people doing PUGs
I've met people from my own server that I have never seen or heard at all
I've learned things about dungeons and adventures that I or people in my guild didn't know
I actually get better as a player because I know how to play with more play styles and approaches. IN some cases even learn to push my class further to compensate for well when shit hits the fan.
PUGs come with a certain level of expectations and to be honest I go in with the mindset that jsut like with anyone the run/match can either go terribly bad or fraken amazing. I dunno, maybe it's because the "arcade culture" I grew up in had me setup for this stuff already, but whether it was playing with or against a stranger I never got upset and I am so used to just going "Hey how you doing!?" and sadly some folks these days are really quiet, but that doesn't stop me from opening a conversation which usually leads to instructions and such being conveyed.
 
IF there is a problem it seems to come more from people not willing to acknowledge that some folks are jsut assholes and or just....bad players. However in that same respect you're playing an MMO get out there and mingle with people outside of your own little corner, you'd be surprised the people you meet when you PUG.
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My guild has basically stopped trying silver runs, sometimes you read 1 line of guild chat in an hour (and we've been 50+ people not long ago)
 
PUGgin ass-boring repetitive extremely long lasting and bug infested adventures is not an option.
 
Getting a non-guild group together last as long as the dungeon run itself.
 
Add the lame itemization to this, and there's no reason left to play.
 
If I could PUG vet dungeon content, I could at least dish out some real good damage (since I love to optimize my DD chars) and improve my skills in boss fights.
 
But the huge barrier in time and patience for vet dungeons isn't really worth the time, especially if you look at the quasi non-existing rewards.
 
So I'm logging in for a few minutes every day, improving my gear with near-to-perfect craft gear, putting runes into that gear, afk-crafting some serums for vendor and logging out. Sometimes I go into the daily zones, getting the quests and feeling the urge to log out immediately after I killed the first 3 mobs that I killed a thousand times before. Reading the forum is more exciting than playing the actual game ...
 
The need for well-coordinated groups in every content above boring adventures is killing this game, since there is no option to log in spontaneously for an hour and doing some medium rewarding stuff.
 
It's really unbelievable that you need the coordinational efforts of doing raids in other games just to be able to farm some pre raid 5-man content - several hours of completely undisturbed time (no one want's to bust a medal-run with being afk...), 4 other people with teamspeak running, and - not to forget - all 4 people have to be skilled, well devoted, prepared and ... hardcore! ... 
 
What a great game.	
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You`ll understand that cross server is a must in this day and age.
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This is how 99% of pug practice/rbgs I solo que for result in and btw it's always wiki temp:
 
People filter in, we start with 2-4 less people, one person might volunteer for defense, game begins and we head to the center cap, and then one side (usually mine) get's wiped out in less than a minute b/c the other team is 1500/1800 geared/has more of the FotM classes. After that, the game is pretty much over. Repeat almost every single game. I can count on one hand out of the 100+ matches I have had which was actually even and more importantly fun.
 
Then there is PvP progression which out right ends with gigantic brick walls. The gear gaps are just to massive in this game PvP wise if you ask me, there is no amount of skill that will over come this; an 1800 with full amp/ability points is like 80% better than a newbie PvPer in blue gear....that's stupid and not fun, period. This games PvP balance is quite possibly the worst I have ever seen, not even WoW vanilla was this bad.	
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According to Carbine, the new battleground called Sabotage, will require an extremely high degree of Coordination (A.K.A. do not PuG or it will be a complete mess).
 
It seems that Wildstar is becoming more and more a game that you need a premade, organized group for everything, that uses TS/Vent or other VoIP. You already needed more Coordination in Wildstar Battlegrounds than in Battlegrounds in other games, but now it seems that Carbine is dialing up the scale even more.
 
So now you will need a premade group for Dungeons because of the Coordination requirement, Battlegrounds and (of course) Raids (which in my opinion is the only game content that should require a premade group with VoIP).
 
While I don't mind that there is a lot of content that especially requires premade groups (if you don't want it to be a mess), I think Wildstar's biggest problem is that there is nowhere enough worthwhile content that you can just log in and do. I think that's a terrible direction, I wish Carbine had come out and said that you will need premade guild groups to do all endgame content in the game, then a lot of us would not have bothered with the game. I thought the point of the LFG tool was to be usable and not be a terrible idea to use.
 
Here I want to make a point about the "Coordination" requirement (aka premade groups with VoIP) that Carbine seems to have adopted for all of its content. Requiring Coordination does not make the game more hardcore: it is NOT more challenging for you, the individual. It is just a superficial mechanic to require premade groups and VoIP that does not really add anything to the game. So you can be an awesome and hardcore player, but your contributions are insignificant because you cannot carry anyone else (and especially not the group), no matter how good you are. I would say that the Coordination requirement is LESS hardcore, not more.
 
Thoughts?
 
To Moderators: I want to discuss about the apparent premade group requirement of the majority of content in Wildstar and its overall direction. This has nothing to do with other threads on Sabotage.
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I remember sitting around LFG in EverQuest, when there were only 2 or 3 classes that could solo even trash mobs.  After watching the devolution in WoW, I would still take the wait over cross server LFG tools.  The only reason you see it as a must is because current culture dictates that everything must be given to you now.  Instant gratification.
 
Don't get me wrong, limiting to one server isn't a magical panacea for the community.  There is the trade off of convenience for community.  But to those of us that dislike cross-server LFG, it makes us sad that most people would apparently rather have the convenience than the community.
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			For those that don't they have options now.  This is for those that do.	
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Well, I only know a handful of people still playing.
 
Pugs are usually a good way to meet others.
 
Pugs are kind of the only way to really meet others from your server.
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For those that don't they have options now.  This is for those that do.
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Am I some kind of freak of nature in that I've had a pleasant time with PUGS? I won't say ALL my PUGs were nice, but majority have been great(especially after the medal system change)
I shake my head sometimes that I even heard this from my own guild, because:
I've met some very awesome people doing PUGs
I've met people from my own server that I have never seen or heard at all
I've learned things about dungeons and adventures that I or people in my guild didn't know
I actually get better as a player because I know how to play with more play styles and approaches. IN some cases even learn to push my class further to compensate for well when shit hits the fan.
PUGs come with a certain level of expectations and to be honest I go in with the mindset that jsut like with anyone the run/match can either go terribly bad or fraken amazing. I dunno, maybe it's because the "arcade culture" I grew up in had me setup for this stuff already, but whether it was playing with or against a stranger I never got upset and I am so used to just going "Hey how you doing!?" and sadly some folks these days are really quiet, but that doesn't stop me from opening a conversation which usually leads to instructions and such being conveyed.
 
IF there is a problem it seems to come more from people not willing to acknowledge that some folks are jsut assholes and or just....bad players. However in that same respect you're playing an MMO get out there and mingle with people outside of your own little corner, you'd be surprised the people you meet when you PUG.
----
			
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My guild has basically stopped trying silver runs, sometimes you read 1 line of guild chat in an hour (and we've been 50+ people not long ago)
 
PUGgin ass-boring repetitive extremely long lasting and bug infested adventures is not an option.
 
Getting a non-guild group together last as long as the dungeon run itself.
 
Add the lame itemization to this, and there's no reason left to play.
 
If I could PUG vet dungeon content, I could at least dish out some real good damage (since I love to optimize my DD chars) and improve my skills in boss fights.
 
But the huge barrier in time and patience for vet dungeons isn't really worth the time, especially if you look at the quasi non-existing rewards.
 
So I'm logging in for a few minutes every day, improving my gear with near-to-perfect craft gear, putting runes into that gear, afk-crafting some serums for vendor and logging out. Sometimes I go into the daily zones, getting the quests and feeling the urge to log out immediately after I killed the first 3 mobs that I killed a thousand times before. Reading the forum is more exciting than playing the actual game ...
 
The need for well-coordinated groups in every content above boring adventures is killing this game, since there is no option to log in spontaneously for an hour and doing some medium rewarding stuff.
 
It's really unbelievable that you need the coordinational efforts of doing raids in other games just to be able to farm some pre raid 5-man content - several hours of completely undisturbed time (no one want's to bust a medal-run with being afk...), 4 other people with teamspeak running, and - not to forget - all 4 people have to be skilled, well devoted, prepared and ... hardcore! ... 
 
What a great game.
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I find a little communication goes a long way.
 
98% of the time the run goes smooth enough once people understand what to do.
 
Of course having a active guild of people who are just cool with doing whatever is helpful. (I don't know if theres a guild like that on stormtalon yet)	
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I think there was obviously a bait-and-switch going on here.  We were told many times that there would be "solo gear" that was best for "solo activities" and that there would be many solo activities.  It is becoming increasing clear though that Wildstar devs have actual contempt for the majority of their players, which is just bizarre in my opinion.
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			This is what I fear no one wants to do gold/silver dungeon runs anymore other than raid requirements due the nerf gold loot, although vet adventure is still the same as always as it is easier.	
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This is what I fear no one wants to do gold/silver dungeon runs anymore other than raid requirements due the nerf gold loot, although vet adventure is still the same as always as it is easier.
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			Well the old gold loot system was better, sure there was toxicity when you do bad but if you have improve you skills enough you should be able to get good players to earn silver/gold in vet dungeon. Now no one wants to do it due to lack of incentive,.	
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Well the old gold loot system was better, sure there was toxicity when you do bad but if you have improve you skills enough you should be able to get good players to earn silver/gold in vet dungeon. Now no one wants to do it due to lack of incentive,.
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			Well as long as they are epic they will keep doing it until they got the ones they want,	
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If Everquest released now (with modern updated graphics, sure) with the mentality it had back then, it would fail, hands down.  People have moved on.  Almost no one wants to spend 24 hours camping a rare spawn, etc etc.  Why?  Because 99%+ of people have realized that that sort of gameplay is pure bullshit.  It was anti-gameplay.  The attempt was to bore you so much that you would no longer be able to play.  I realize some people think that sort of anti-gameplay is "elite" but most have come to the realization that time-wasting is not gameplay.
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Is there a way to -dislike- a post besides just posting? I'm not looking to argue, just stating that I don't agree and hope Carbine never listens to your ilk.
 
There are dailies and quests for solo players.
 
Group content should encourage group play, not a bunch of cowboys thrown together. Teamwork should always triumph in group competition. 	
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Group content should encourage group play, not a bunch of cowboys thrown together. Teamwork should always triumph in group competition. 
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According to Carbine, the new battleground called Sabotage, will require an extremely high degree of Coordination (A.K.A. do not PuG or it will be a complete mess).
 
It seems that Wildstar is becoming more and more a game that you need a premade, organized group for everything, that uses TS/Vent or other VoIP. You already needed more Coordination in Wildstar Battlegrounds than in Battlegrounds in other games, but now it seems that Carbine is dialing up the scale even more.
 
So now you will need a premade group for Dungeons because of the Coordination requirement, Battlegrounds and (of course) Raids (which in my opinion is the only game content that should require a premade group with VoIP).
 
While I don't mind that there is a lot of content that especially requires premade groups (if you don't want it to be a mess), I think Wildstar's biggest problem is that there is nowhere enough worthwhile content that you can just log in and do. I think that's a terrible direction, I wish Carbine had come out and said that you will need premade guild groups to do all endgame content in the game, then a lot of us would not have bothered with the game. I thought the point of the LFG tool was to be usable and not be a terrible idea to use.
 
Here I want to make a point about the "Coordination" requirement (aka premade groups with VoIP) that Carbine seems to have adopted for all of its content. Requiring Coordination does not make the game more hardcore: it is NOT more challenging for you, the individual. It is just a superficial mechanic to require premade groups and VoIP that does not really add anything to the game. So you can be an awesome and hardcore player, but your contributions are insignificant because you cannot carry anyone else (and especially not the group), no matter how good you are. I would say that the Coordination requirement is LESS hardcore, not more.
 
Thoughts?
 
To Moderators: I want to discuss about the apparent premade group requirement of the majority of content in Wildstar and its overall direction. This has nothing to do with other threads on Sabotage.
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Is there a way to -dislike- a post besides just posting? I'm not looking to argue, just stating that I don't agree and hope Carbine never listens to your ilk.
 
There are dailies and quests for solo players.
 
Group content should encourage group play, not a bunch of cowboys thrown together. Teamwork should always triumph in group competition. 
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Good. It's about time someone started making content for players who love MMOs, not who hate MMOs and expect to be able to solo everything with random people.
 
Get friends. Join a guild. Build a team.	
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So I'm logging in for a few minutes every day, improving my gear with near-to-perfect craft gear, putting runes into that gear, afk-crafting some serums for vendor and logging out. Sometimes I go into the daily zones, getting the quests and feeling the urge to log out immediately after I killed the first 3 mobs that I killed a thousand times before. Reading the forum is more exciting than playing the actual game ...
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Good. It's about time someone started making content for players who love MMOs, not who hate MMOs and expect to be able to solo everything with random people.
 
Get friends. Join a guild. Build a team.
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It wasn't always like this, either.  It was assumed in ye olde dayf of MMORPGs that you were going to assemble a PUG by calling out into the general chat or LFG channel to get one together, communicate about how it was all going to work, and do everything in your power to make it work because, if you didn't, replacing members manually was a *cupcake*.
 
Back in the modern day, in the days of cross-server PUGging in WoW, you can just assume that people know what they're supposed to be doing in any given dungeon or battleground and, if they aren't, they're easily replaced and expendable.  You don't have a friends list like a rolodex of good tanks, healers, and DPS.  You barely know who you play with.
 
That doesn't work as well in Wildstar, though I think they're still closer to new-age WoW than vanilla WoW in that respect.  The content is technically PUGgabble, but you learn very quickly that, especially in PVP, a group of people who know what they're doing can survive against an onslaught of keybashers three or four times their size or with twice their item level in gear.  Normally, a little chatter would fix the problem, but most people, from our steady diet of easier content that allows you to drop in and drop out without even saying 'hello' has spoiled most people into thinking that Wildstar PUGs will work that same way.
 
They don't.  A DPS that can't keep track of the healer and tank so he can get in the middle of heals can make life miserable, and it's even worse in PVP where a medic and a good mix of damage dealers can eviscerate uncoordinated groups of solo players.  People have to learn to at least talk and come up with some kind of plan of action.
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lol no. People like the diet of easy stuff they have been living off of for the last few years. No one wants to talk to anyone else or have to think about what they are doing. Why do people think that anything that requires you to think or actually do some work as unpugable or too "hardcore". News flash it isn't. Some games are not drop in or drop out and just blindly push buttons and get gold. Its not gonna happen. Its what the game was ment to be. And guess what thats not a bad thing.  Why do people want to change the game? Or what did they think it was?
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or maybe we just dont want to talk to you and people like you.
 
I talk to people I'm friends with or zone chat all the time. Just because I like going at my own pace doesnt mean I hate groups. It means I have no patience for being forced to group when I dont volunteer to do so. Wildstar isnt largely unpuggable because people dont want to put in effort. Its largely unpuggable because the amount of reward you get for playing in a pug is nowhere near enough to justify the cost of doing so in repair bills and time investment.
 
Just because you enjoy slamming your dick into a meat gruinder over and over and call it rewarding doesnt mean everyone is going to fall for the sunk cost fallacy on that one.
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Your opinion.
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			and since I personally have no interest in joining a guild or making new e-friends, it looks like once my 30 days are up, that'll be it for me.  Not interested in raid times and turning Wildstar into a part time job, like WoW once was.  Neverwinter, here I come...  it's too bad that you have to dedicate your life to some games, instead of simply being able to enjoy them.	
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or maybe we just dont want to talk to you and people like you.
 
I talk to people I'm friends with or zone chat all the time. Just because I like going at my own pace doesnt mean I hate groups. It means I have no patience for being forced to group when I dont volunteer to do so. Wildstar isnt largely unpuggable because people dont want to put in effort. Its largely unpuggable because the amount of reward you get for playing in a pug is nowhere near enough to justify the cost of doing so in repair bills and time investment.
 
Just because you enjoy slamming your dick into a meat gruinder over and over and call it rewarding doesnt mean everyone is going to fall for the sunk cost fallacy on that one.
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Just like yours is an opinion. Funny how that works.
 
Its almost like we're both running off personal experience and or personal tastes in gaming. The difference being you seem to not acknowledge that other styles of play can be valid because *cupcake*other people.
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I prefer playing with other people, but I'm coming into this game without a pre-established gaming community. I'd venture a guess that most players are in the same boat.
 
And like it or not, most people who come into the game without a pre-established group are going to meet others mainly through pugging. Make pugging impossible or not worth it, and you have trapped a lot of people (again, quite possibly the majority) in the vicious cycle of not having a group to play with because they can't run group content because they don't have a group to play with.
 
Community can't form in a game that forces players to only run with people they already know.	
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And yet you went here "Just because you enjoy slamming your dick into a meat gruinder over and over and call it rewarding doesnt mean everyone is going to fall for the sunk cost fallacy on that one."
 
Differance is the game was ment to be played with people if you thought different you bought the wrong game. I think people are getting upset because they want to do things in the game but they want the game to change to something it never was ment to be. I saw the same vids as everyone else I knew what it was going to be from the start. 40 man raids? really? Bosses that spam the whole damn area unless you move your ass? I saw that coming a mile away and guess what. i said "cool" If I want to do that I will If I don't I won't. I knew what it would take to do that content and it didn't interest me. I didn't blind myself to what was right in front of me and I don't exect things to change just because I want them too.
 
Now I understand your opinion because I was the sameway I got used to easy content same as everyone else. But lets be real this is not ment to be the same stuff we have been playing for a number of years. And it just surprises me people seem to think it was something different or ment to be something different.
 
But what would you like? I'm seriously asking what would make this game easier in your opinion.
 
 
Sorry some games take longer than an hr to play. But best of luck to you in something else.
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So it should go straight from solo content to organized with headsets?  Nothing in between?  And the people that like relaxing while playing with friends...they can all sod off right?
 
Edit: You're probably addressing PvP, but the more organized group will pretty much always win in PvP... that's the thing about playing against other players.  I see it as a non-issue honestly.
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Is there a way to -dislike- a post besides just posting? I'm not looking to argue, just stating that I don't agree and hope Carbine never listens to your ilk.
 
There are dailies and quests for solo players.
 
Group content should encourage group play, not a bunch of cowboys thrown together. Teamwork should always triumph in group competition. 
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The OP was in reference to Sabotage, so yeah, was about PvP.
 
I don't want content made where coordinated teamwork is penalized over PuGing. 
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well, me neither. But I also dont want all content to require headsets and a ventrilo/mumble/ teamspeak  server.
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They don't -require- it.
 
I can still hop into any BG and pride myself on a high KDA, set personal goals of prestige gain, objectives, etc. The game doesn't block me from entering this content.
 
However, if the opposing team spends the time to get on a VOIP, coordinate and work together. Then they better damn well have a better chance at beating my team. They put forward the extra effort as a team and should reap the extra rewards.
 
Drop 1 was a bunch of zones with single player content, a couple of group things. Drop 2 is a PvP drop that requires groups.
 
I see no crises here, except maybe a manufactured one who isn't happy that premades can win easier than a bunch of uncoordinated cowboys. 
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[...] since there is no option to log in spontaneously for an hour and doing some medium rewarding stuff.
 
It's really unbelievable that you need the coordinational efforts of doing raids in other games just to be able to farm some pre raid 5-man content - several hours of completely undisturbed time (no one want's to bust a medal-run with being afk...), 4 other people with teamspeak running, and - not to forget - all 4 people have to be skilled, well devoted, prepared and ... hardcore! ... 
 
What a great game.
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Like I said before, there is a reason why people are complaining about empty servers. Most normal gamers have left this game. Kinda of sad really. 
 
People who say that you dont need premade groups with Vent/TS for pretty much all worthwhile content at 50 are being disingenuous. Unfortunately, the only few people who still play Wildstar are those elitists who have tons of free time to waste on not playing. 
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And here I am thinking Sabotages only problem was that it was not 10 v 10 CTF style or 5v5 arena.
 
Also all premades will stomp any PUG in any BG, in any game.
Unless somehow you get 10+ people who are switched on and just work without the need for any of that lame communication stuff... Kind of like a team of strangers that move as a whole and just works like one whole entity.
But that seldom happens, usually pugs are a mass of kill hungry braindead flies who do not seem to know what the word objective is. The premades usually just divide, conquer and call incs on these uncontrolled hordes for a an easy win, it's like this in every game and every genre that has you pitting two teams against each other.
 
Unless it's a case of not being able to run this BG at all without a group, as in it won't match up until the group is formed like it's impossible to que alone, then I agree it's dumb. The battle ground will be ignored if it wasn't already going to be ignored after a few novelty plays.
It might be popular if it's faster then Walatiki though, if not then Sabotage is going to be rather unplayed.	
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And here I am thinking Sabotages only problem was that it was not 10 v 10 CTF style or 5v5 arena.
 
Also all premades will stomp any PUG in any BG, in any game.
Unless somehow you get 10+ people who are switched on and just work without the need for any of that lame communication stuff... Kind of like a team of strangers that move as a whole and just works like one whole entity.
But that seldom happens, usually pugs are a mass of kill hungry braindead flies who do not seem to know what the word objective is. The premades usually just divide, conquer and call incs on these uncontrolled hordes for a an easy win, it's like this in every game and every genre that has you pitting two teams against each other.
 
Unless it's a case of not being able to run this BG at all without a group, as in it won't match up until the group is formed like it's impossible to que alone, then I agree it's dumb. The battle ground will be ignored if it wasn't already going to be ignored after a few novelty plays.
It might be popular if it's faster then Walatiki though, if not then Sabotage is going to be rather unplayed.
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eh eh eh...watch that one. Not true. Example LOL plenty of premade teams. I've seen them come and go. Now on paper sure it should always happen but that dosen't always hold up.
 
Now premade can mean hey I happen to know this guy in real life we just want to play together that dosen't mean they are better than anyone else. The thing I think makes a big differance is communication. Anyone can do that pug or otherwise. Or in the same boat if you don't communicate even if your a premade you can get steam rolled just as easy by a pug that does.
 
Now what that communication is can be up for debate. I mean we can all type and sometimes thats good enough. Lets say a group spends about ten mins typing to each other before they do a run or spends 5 mins before each pull of a mob. It can go along way to overall success.
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A lot of times, PuGs can coordinate and communicate too with some kindness and authority. If people determine that you seem to know what you are talking about, then they'll often listen as they want to win too. Now, if you start yelling and being an *cupcake* to them, then they will probably tune you out and enjoy their brainded kill hungry zombie mode. I'm guilty of that too.
 
You got a plan? Awesome, I'll do my best to help it. There are often two ways of reacting to someone leading who fails to net an easy victory.
 
1. Their plan was better. You yelled at me for it not working? Ok, I'll just look for easy to kill targets now.
 
Or.
 
2. Their plan was better, but you want to try something else? Ok, let me see if I can help.
 
Of course, there are also those who turn off /instance and go in hoping to lose and get a quick couple of prestige. But I find the PuGers that absolutely have no interest in winning are usually a lot less than those hoping for a W. 
 
In GW2, I used to do a lot of leading. To be honest, there was a lot more incentive, because WvWvW meant that I was constantly seeing the same faces in my realm and we built relationships with one another. I had people who came to rely on me and people I came to rely on. In Wildstar, the PuGs are names and faces I rarely recognize and its hard to motivate myself to want to help lead- even if I want to win. The easiest route is just to play free for all mode in PuGs or hope someone else does the leading.	
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Truche!
But you can't deny that a well organized team of people that know each other will beat a disoranised group of strangers anyday. But you are technically right a premade can also be made up of crap players.
And communication can be as simple as calling out important events and details, "calling Inc" and makeign calls in general. Some pugs either don't manage that or someone does make calls only the strangers don't listen. I've even been in instances in other games where someone was getting annoyed with a person calling things "STFU I don't care if they are capping GM noob".
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The OP was in reference to Sabotage, so yeah, was about PvP.
 
I don't want content made where coordinated teamwork is penalized over PuGing. 
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			i am not interested in pvp so basically this means no content for me however ill give it a try and see what it is all about.	
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i am not interested in pvp so basically this means no content for me however ill give it a try and see what it is all about.
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Like I said before, there is a reason why people are complaining about empty servers. Most normal gamers have left this game. Kinda of sad really. 
 
People who say that you dont need premade groups with Vent/TS for pretty much all worthwhile content at 50 are being disingenuous. Unfortunately, the only few people who still play Wildstar are those elitists who have tons of free time to waste on not playing.
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Its easy to say "if you don't like the way things are, then leave", but that works only on games that are still popular (like WoW). You cant say that for games where everyone and their mothers has already left or is leaving.
 
In case you didn't notice, a healthy number of subscribers in MMORPGs means more quality content, while very low subscribers numbers means a destructive slide into F2P. Guess were Wildstar is (and its heading).
 
You cant say that the Carbine's fetish with content designed specifically for hyper organized groups with VoIP - to the exclusion of everything else - did not kill the game. Wildstar is quickly turning into TERA 2.0, a game with tons of potential that is killed due to the Developers' limiting vision.	
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			Soloqueue in RBG is what destroyes RBG. I like Sabotage and I hope it does not get a soloqueue for rated. That soloqueue (or queueing in a group of NOT 10 man) is the very reason RBG did not recieve an 1800 set. You can't soloqueue for rated arena either. If you want to do rated content, get a group for it.	
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Soloqueue in RBG is what destroyes RBG. I like Sabotage and I hope it does not get a soloqueue for rated. That soloqueue (or queueing in a group of NOT 10 man) is the very reason RBG did not recieve an 1800 set. You can't soloqueue for rated arena either. If you want to do rated content, get a group for it.
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I'd be fine with that so long as people cant queue into unrated battlegrounds with rated gear on. otherwise you're basically just creating a world where anyone who wants to BG /has/ to arena or else they have no serious chance of ever seeing a win.
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Its easy to say "if you don't like the way things are, then leave", but that works only on games that are still popular (like WoW). You cant say that for games where everyone and their mothers has already left or is leaving.
 
In case you didn't notice, a healthy number of subscribers in MMORPGs means more quality content, while very low subscribers numbers means a destructive slide into F2P. Guess were Wildstar is (and its heading).
 
You cant say that the Carbine's fetish with content designed specifically for hyper organized groups with VoIP - to the exclusion of everything else - did not kill the game. Wildstar is quickly turning into TERA 2.0, a game with tons of potential that is killed due to the Developers' limiting vision.
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