146723-wildstar-not-for-this-average-player-page-4

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Actually, i think we are in situations 2 and 3.  I honestly don't want to log in much for non-raid time.  Hell, if i could make plat by raiding, i probably wouldn't log on before 7pm.  Unless we are going for gold, dungeons aren't that much fun anymore.
 
Sitaution 3 - that is what we are doing for augmentors/hardmentors.  Normal augmentors is difficult enough but has no real rewards, so no one does it at all.  Hardmentors offers some cool runesets and the last gauntlet imbue, which is awesome, but gear/skill is so high that most people don't do it.
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If content is fun do it if it's not fun, don't do it... if you can't find anything fun to do or have too much unfun to do before you can do the fun things, quit. Why ruin the fun things for other players? Some people like challenge... you'll clearly never raid so why does having adequate pve gear matter? So you can get plat faster? Willing to bet a quick peek in the commodirt broker and you'll see some ways to build an empire of plat. Especially casual players who can wait for money to grow...
 
Raiding takes alot of people and work... sometimes you need enough people "encouraged" to challenge themselves to fill out the ranks over the people who just like challenge + repair bills?
 
It's like arena, it needs a healthy population to even get and keep its feet off the ground... so forgive devs if they push you in that direction... but you don't need raid gear to anything else in the game... so you want to focus on the 2 instances you CAN'T do because you got left out? Well tough luck. I've seen too many games ruined by casual passerbyes unfortunately... they swing in. Complain and Ruin it for the small die hard community then then leave anyways next wow expac	
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If content is fun do it if it's not fun, don't do it... if you can't find anything fun to do or have too much unfun to do before you can do the fun things, quit. 
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Vet dungeons: easier or harder than the pre-F2P dungeons while leveling--for a new player with the appropriate iLevel gear who isn't being hand-carried through it by veteran players?
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So the only possible way that what we're talking about could ruin your fun is if your fun only comes at the expense of the casual playerbase, to which all I can say is: good luck with that.
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The other possible way is that it causes burnout by people completing the easy versions and then not enjoying the more difficult versions. I understand you believe they can make it so this doesn't happen, but when we are talking about "possibilities", then yes, that is a possibility because it's what has happened elsewhere this was implemented.
 
Also, the other way it can ruin our fun is by taking development resources away from content that we find fun. Especially if they are going to try to keep up with a community that will consume the content in a month and be hungry again. Say what you want about raiders- at least we enjoy the content for months at a time. As I've said, I'm not convinced that an easy version of GA would keep people in the game that much longer.
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I agree with you that this is where we are. I agree with your summary of why nobody's doing Y-83. There's no progression to it, so why bother? Apply that same reasoning to the newer open world zones and new instances and you'll have a very clear understanding of why this game isn't retaining players.
 
Maybe you'd find the rest of the game's content more challenging and interesting if raid instances had raid stats just like PvP gear does, so that you can progress through the raid without trivializing the rest of the game, no?
 
If open world gear is just as good as BiS gear, then nobody will raid except people who genuinely enjoy the experience regardless of the rewards--and as far as I can tell, there aren't enough of those to fill a single raid group.
 
But nobody's talking about making open world gear just as good as BiS gear here, are they. We're talking about expanding the range of gear progression for non-raid and raid content on a roughly parallel time course so that the 20-30 iLevel edge in gear that currently applies to raiding doesn't get bigger than it already is.
 
I hate to break it to you, but Contracts T5 gear is iLevel 100. You can already get iLevel 100 gear from doing Crimson Badlands.
 
The rewards for doing GA are access to DS, the exclusive location of the game's BiS gear, and a variety of raid only drops that currently include legendary iLevel 100 gear, class set foci, and Genetic Matrices--to say nothing of BoE drops that sell for tens of plat each.
 
The ideas only conflict with each other if you equate someone who plays the game as a casual player as demonstrating less merit, effort, and skill during their play time than someone who is not even at the keyboard and being carried AFK through raid instances. Which would be a pretty offensive perspective to have, honestly.
 
And either way, there's really no credible version of you using a merit-based argument for restricting raid loot when you say stuff like this:
That's the exact opposite of you doing what you're advocating, so I would guess that your support for "merit-based gear you can be carried to" is that you just want the only people to get that loot handed to them to be people that you approve of.
 
And I'm fine with that--when you and your buddies can pay into the game enough to keep it in business when everyone who doesn't get your personal seal of approval leaves. But that's not this game, as year 1 clearly demonstrated.
 
My points are about making the game more fun for the vast population of players who are casual and don't want to invest huge amounts of effort and time into a video game to get a pretendy fun time piece of virtual loot. 
 
Content that you can face and find a bit challenging and beat with the time and effort you have to apply to the game is fun.
Content that you can't ever beat because it will take more effort than you're ever going to be willing to commit to is not fun.
Content that is no effort at all to beat is also not fun. That's what being carried is. You're not accomplishing anything. You don't even need to be at the keyboard.
The available choices are not only "no challenge" or "so much challenge that you can't do it unless you're dedicating at least 0.2 FTE in a raiding guild". There is a third option, even if you don't personally care for it.
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IMO, if you spent as much time playing wildstar as you do in forums, you'd probably be raiding and happy :D
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Yes, other things will get run quicker, but if there's concurrency of things or a set timeline (even loosely) of when to expect them...it may temper the frustration of burn out too.
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Maybe. But how long is reasonable for a new raid tier? Let's say that they could crank one out every nine months. Let's say that the average raider takes six months to clear a raid tier in WS. Ok, so they clear it and farm it for three months. Then a new one comes out, they are ready to go.
 
However, there's the LFR version that is cleared a few days after release. The LFR crowd has all the gear from it within weeks of it coming out. Now they have eight months to wait for something else to come out. How is LFR going to keep these folks playing the game? How is it helping anything at all? How is it working out for WoW?
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you dont get it. they just want to experience it without much effort. then they move to the next game and do the same there.
personally i dont mind them doing it, i do this in other games as well (hearthstone for example is a great example). Its just that WS is a game for a specific playerbase, at least it was/still is mostly a game that targets players who like hard/challenging content. 
We will see how it will end but i'm not too excited any more.
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it was pretty hardcore on release. leveling reminded me at WoW. i did pretty much all quests and also dungeons and had nothing to do at lvl 49 and had to grind 3/4 of a level.
attuning was not easily done so pretty much everyone only had 1 char which he tried to max out on amps/ap/gear to then go raiding and it was infinite harder in blue gear to finish the dungeons.
the GA gear you got was often no upgrade to crafted items due to bad stat distribution.
 
The game shifted towards casual a long time ago and them redirection raids in a different direction does not mean it will be more hardcore. redmoon will be a joke (like cleared in a week and shorter than DS) i think.	
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Eh, I think a lot of that was just poor design choices. There was nothing fun about the rune system and the itemization where crafted stuff and adventure purples were BiS till midway through GA. I don't think the way it was experienced was what they intended.
 
I guess we'll see about redmoon. I'm hoping that it isn't that way, but I guess we won't know till it comes out.	
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Maybe. But how long is reasonable for a new raid tier? Let's say that they could crank one out every nine months. Let's say that the average raider takes six months to clear a raid tier in WS. Ok, so they clear it and farm it for three months. Then a new one comes out, they are ready to go.
 
However, there's the LFR version that is cleared a few days after release. The LFR crowd has all the gear from it within weeks of it coming out. Now they have eight months to wait for something else to come out. How is LFR going to keep these folks playing the game? How is it helping anything at all? How is it working out for WoW?
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Got a good giggle out of everyone under age 30 ignoring the OP's most pertinent bit of information which was he's over 40 and naturally no longer possess the hand eye coordination and reflexes of a teenager.
 
When you hit 30 you'll start experiencing the same exact thing he's talking about and it'll only get progressively worse from there. I'm 32 now and have come to the same realization and each new game starts leaning more on reflexes/speed which phases us older gamers out.
 
You'll also experience the "fun" of your fingers starting to hurt after an hour of frantically mashing keys when they never did before.
 
I recently came back to this game because I find it interesting but I swapped to my Engineer dropping my Esper and Spellsinger because tanking requires just a little less mashing and is more forgiving on missing a dodge.
			
				
	Edited December 1, 2015 by BabyBoy	
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Well, I'm way past 30- so I don't see how it's relevant.
 
Also, we have a grandmother raiding with is, and I'm sure she's well over 40 and doing just find in Datascape.	
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Got a good giggle out of everyone under age 30 ignoring the OP's most pertinent bit of information which was he's over 40 and naturally no longer possess the hand eye coordination and reflexes of a teenager.
 
When you hit 30 you'll start experiencing the same exact thing he's talking about and it'll only get progressively worse from there. I'm 32 now and have come to the same realization and each new game starts leaning more on reflexes/speed which phases us older gamers out.
 
You'll also experience the "fun" of your fingers starting to hurt after an hour of frantically mashing keys when they never did before.
 
I recently came back to this game because I find it interesting but I swapped to my Engineer dropping my Esper and Spellsinger because tanking requires just a little less mashing and is more forgiving on missing a dodge.
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			do people just not try to get better at games anymore?	
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So does that mean we should design every game for our great grandpa's? It's a complete cop out. I'm 28 tomorrow and I have no decline in hand eye and I've been gaming since I was 2 (literally) and at the top end of the spectrum I'd say sure there will be a decline because your body is literally falling apart at a certain age... but it's always been a "don't use it you lose it"... tell me Roger Federer has hand eye problems? It's fine if your interests shift and you lose some of your ability to focus as well/ect... or simply don't want to focus... but your ability to be alert mentally is 100% still working, if you were in actual danger fight or flight kicks in and you'll have all the reflexes you think you "lost".
 
That said, there are many talents out there that require hand eye and there are dudes in their 50's and up rocking out at them...
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Game won't survive if they spend a lot of time work on content that is consumed and tossed away quickly either.
 
Anyway, my guild doesn't seem to have a lot of high stress e-peen waving, so maybe it's a matter of finding the right group of peolle to play with, and age has nothing to do with it?	
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I think another thing is that many of us are looking at this like "Well, we're at 50 and have been, so anything new is going to be gobbled up quick!" It will be, no question about that, hence my timeline schedule earlier on, would make stuff to do all over the place at all kinds of player levels.
 
New players want to know there's a ton to do, if they see there isn't or hear that, they'll get turned away before even walking in the door. So, while content may be consumed by us veterans at a higher rate it makes the attraction to new players that much more potent. Going back to my Disney vs Six Flags comparison; you wouldn't go to a theme park with just 10 rides...they might be great rides but you're not going to go out of your way to go there compared to the one that has 100 well put together rides for everyone to enjoy.	
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Game won't survive if they spend a lot of time work on content that is consumed and tossed away quickly either.
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SO the suggestion is players who do super easy, boring, trivial open-world content should have gear similar to people who can kill system daemons?  I think this is an incredibly silly notion.  "Oh, i get great gear for essentially no effort" - i don't get it man, i really don't.
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			Seeing a lot of people leaving again. It almost feels like it did when it was Sub based.	
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So does that mean we should design every game for our great grandpa's? It's a complete cop out. I'm 28 tomorrow and I have no decline in hand eye and I've been gaming since I was 2 (literally) and at the top end of the spectrum I'd say sure there will be a decline because your body is literally falling apart at a certain age... but it's always been a "don't use it you lose it"... tell me Roger Federer has hand eye problems? It's fine if your interests shift and you lose some of your ability to focus as well/ect... or simply don't want to focus... but your ability to be alert mentally is 100% still working, if you were in actual danger fight or flight kicks in and you'll have all the reflexes you think you "lost".
 
That said, there are many talents out there that require hand eye and there are dudes in their 50's and up rocking out at them...
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			K grandpa. There are plenty of casual slow paced games already available, why ruin this one? Please, tell me... go play wow. Go play ffiv, go play gw2... why come to a harder game and asked that it literally be chopped down to a 2002 mmo because you can't play it? For someone in your 30s I'm interested in seeing you walk into a pizza place and complain that people want sandwiches, to stop serving pizza and just serve sandwhiches, because not everyone can eat tomato sauce	
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If you think 30s and 40s is a "grandpa" then I don't know what to tell you. But the majority of the people who have quit this game complained about constantly having to dodge telegraphs which are extremely overboard in this game and don't really add any depth to it. The numbers speak for themselves so I don't really have to defend the point. The only thing this game has really done differently from other games is add an obscene amount of telegraphs and most people quit by level 20... if not by level 14 so defend it if you like but it pretty much killed the game once already. The people who like telegraphs are already max level, the low level side is pretty much dead.
 
Twitch games have their place, I said that in my original post that you quoted. However when twitching becomes the only way to play it will drive people off and that much has already happened. Auto targeting was also replaced with nonstop button mashing which on top of all the nonstop dodging created a mess of combat that will wear pretty much anyone out.
 
They should've toned down the mechanics a long time ago when it became evident that people were quitting the game in droves before level 30. It's one thing to try to make combat a little harder but when every mob feels like a boss it's overboard and even tedious. The game has a lot of potential but combat does feel extremely tedious.
 
You also totally missed the point by telling me you're 28 when I said over 30. As in when you hit 30ish - 31ish things start to feel different... things that didn't previously hurt at all will start to hurt a little and it increases from there. This is called aging. You're not a magical elf, this will happen to you too no matter how much you deny it. Your reflexes will fade, this is natural, it's part of aging. No amount of denying it will make it suddenly untrue. I'd love to pretend my reflexes are the same but they're not and i was in denial just like you before it actually happened. I was in denial about not being able to bounce as easily from a fall... I can still bounce but it hurts like hell when it previously was painless.
 
The point is button mashing games like this one start to hurt your hands. You'll feel it and you might even start to feel the beginnings of carpal tunnel requiring actual rest just for your hands after playing a game like this. Even while tying this post I can feel my finger nails against the keyboard and it's grating my nerves but it's an adjustment. You'll feel that too. I wish I could see your face in your early 30s when you feel these things and go "Oh he was right.". It's going to happen. It happens to everyone. Don't be that special snowflake, it's not a good look.
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K grandpa. There are plenty of casual slow paced games already available, why ruin this one? Please, tell me... go play wow. Go play ffiv, go play gw2... why come to a harder game and asked that it literally be chopped down to a 2002 mmo because you can't play it? For someone in your 30s I'm interested in seeing you walk into a pizza place and complain that people want sandwiches, to stop serving pizza and just serve sandwhiches, because not everyone can eat tomato sauce
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I'm in my mid 30's, used to work for Riot Games as a software engineer, and have the onset of carpal tunnel in my hands from spending over half of my life coding. Some days it's worse than others.
 
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my family just has terrible joints... joints and sinuses... luckily I live in florida... when it does get "cold" my knuckles/finger joints lock up pretty hard... gaming isn't too bad but playing guitar and drumming is off limits... luckily most of the wear and tear on my body atm is my knees/hip/back - but in general I tend to avoid certain game styles that are click intensive... not sure what happened but somehow in my starcraft days my fingers would just go numb on my mouse hand... still does if I try to play games that require a lot of clicking... probably why I cant stand league of legends :P click to move... EWW. haha srsly though, smite is the only moba I CAN play... fps games are fine for a bit too, not as much clicking as you'd think
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Also, weren't MMOs supposed to have been harder in 2002 when everything was so old school? 
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K grandpa. There are plenty of casual slow paced games already available, why ruin this one? Please, tell me... go play wow. Go play ffiv, go play gw2... why come to a harder game and asked that it literally be chopped down to a 2002 mmo because you can't play it? For someone in your 30s I'm interested in seeing you walk into a pizza place and complain that people want sandwiches, to stop serving pizza and just serve sandwhiches, because not everyone can eat tomato sauce
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no, we just put in more work and felt like we got a reward out of it. a sense of community and self responsibility(due to everyone knowing you, if you sucked/were a jerk you would have a hard time finding groups) and sense of accomplishment. I see so much crying over spilled milk on these forums I almost wonder if you're sieze up completely if you played UO back in the day... spend hours grinding a rock to make a crappy set of gear, walk outside of town with no mob lvls to go by... just attack it and hope you can kill it... kill some ghouls and zombies feeling good... then you see a lich and go hmm, he must be a harder mob - ERRR you got rekt, and the other guy out there picked up all your gear so back to grinding rocks... you grind up your gear again then go try to kill stone harpies... step in the cave and get popped by 3-4 reds waiting on the other side... lose all your gear and repeat the process...
 
but it had a certain mag​ic to it... you had to play the game with the mindset that anyone COULD turn on you at any time if you looked juicy enough to kill... and only travel with what you're okay with losing... always having to be on your guard... none of that exists in this game, and that subgenre of MMO is so niche now you probably can't even name a live game that has these elements intact...
 
and wildstar has more players than many games... just because it doesn't make 9872398723987$ a year doesn't mean it's not successful... the only place that is absolutely dying is the pvp servers ATM. the pve servers have healthy populations even on the weaker factions...​
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			well HE STARTED IT.	
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lol at the this whole age debate....
 
 
You do know that the average gamer is around 30 years, and the average age of people buying games is around 35 yeah?
Games evolved along with their original player base, not the new kiddies holding mommy's hand.
 
I swear you young people...	
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Seeing a lot of people leaving again. It almost feels like it did when it was Sub based.
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time for steam release Kappa
and then we have the same situation in 2 month from now
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These responses are awesome.  This game is no where near 10+ year old.  There is hardly any "grind" in this game.  The 3 "grinds" are really not that bad compared to how things used to be.  There's the pvp grind to get gear.  And the pve grind to get best gear which are actually the 2 others beside pvp.  There's no leveling grind.  There's not really that much of a plat grind.  There's some reputation grind but with contracts, it's not that bad.  30 minutes a day for 10 days for one faction is not that bad.  
 
PVP Grind- It's the prestige and that isn't even that bad.  It's a weekend with a flask.  The more wins you get, the better the grind so if you can get into a premade that is rofl stomping pugs, than great.  But it's not weeks of grinding that games like UO and DAOC were or even beginning wow.
 
Endgame Grind-
 
-Getting the raid key was somewhat of a grind but could be done in a week easily.  A day if you had a good group of people to play with.  The only bad grind for that was world bosses.  The vet dungeon for silver part was good because you had to get good to play.  By that time, going into raids weren't to bad, it was gear mostly holding you back.  I think if they put the silver and how hard it was to get silver compared to now, GA would be demolished because gear was fixed.  
 
-But getting gear and doing the "gear treadmills" is the biggest grind but you know what, to not reward people for their effort, and obtaining bad ass gear to tackle the next step is a great concept imo.  Not this GW2 everyone has the same gear for doing whatever from hardmode stuff to I completed the jump puzzle that was actually really easy but you know what, I get the same gear.  That's like saying, person A spent 10 hours in the game and defeated this hard dragon but person B also spent 10 hours in the game but spent it drinking beer with his buddies and chilling at the local housing bar and got the same item.  
 
-Rune system is somewhat of a grind but that is more of a plat issue or you can obtain the runes from raids and over time if you don't want to spend plat.  And that's for maximizing your runes for that >10% power.  I did a blue runing for divine gear on my esper, and the only thing that was low was my multihit by less than 10%, crit hit sev by about 7% and Vigor about 5% lower than if I went full Major runes.  All other stats were fine.  So instead of doing that 20k dps, i'm now doing 18-19k.  It's stupid how many are complaining for that 10% extra costing to much.  
 
But both those grinds are nothing compared to Vanilla wow and DAOC or even Final Fantasy 11.  Not to mention Everquest and Everquest 2.  When you would run scholomance 40+ times for that one piece of gear to help in MC.  Can you imagine running Skullcano for that head piece 40 times?
 
Now for the age thing.  To many games now a days need better reflexes than past games.  And it's not how fast you move because some of those you had to move fast, it's more of the RNG factor put into games and how you react to the randomness.  Single players back in early 2000's even worse in 90's, were mostly time based and event based.  I remember when Metal Gear Solid came to Playstation and was this huge thing because mobs would react to you and do their own thing.  They didn't do this pace of walk and this path every time (although some did in that game).  Now a days, it's way more on how the AI reacts.  You play fps than and you know when you went into this room, there would be 2 guys at this time doing these acts.  Scripted events.  Now it's you enter a room, 2 guys, oh wait, maybe 3, and one playthrough they try to knife you to death, next time, he fires a bazooka at you.  So Wildstar has actually kept up with the current way games are doing RNG and somewhat scripted events but having differences.  Imagine going into a boss and doing these set of moves than next pull he does something completely different.  And getting older your hand-eye coordination decreases.  Look at sport players, football you start seeing declines in the 30's.  They have to work harder.  Same thing for basketball.  Baseball though is a little bit older but you do start to see decreasing effects in mid 30's.  To say that it doesn't happen when there is so much proof their is, is stupid.
 
tl;dr:  3 grinds (pvp, endgame gear, runes) that aren't to bad of grinds compared to past games/mmo's of 10 years aka 40 scholmance runs to get that one piece.  Other areas of game aren't bad of grinds.  Old happens, it shows after 30.
 
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Gear treadmills and heavily gated endgame content are outdated relics. One of the things I liked about GW2 was that gear was vastly secondary to skill. You could literally solo dungeons if you were REALLY, REALLY good and understood proper strategy.
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			So much doom and gloom. It really wears thin after a while.	
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So much doom and gloom. It really wears thin after a while.
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l'm a fairly new Wildstar player and l have to say l don't get what all the complaining is about. The game is not *hard*, it just requires you to wake up from that sleepy state in which WoW dungeons put you for so many years, open your eyes and react. l'm a long-time WoW raider at the highest level and in all honesty Wildstar surprised me in the best of ways when it came to the PvE. It was a completely unexpected turnout when l finally got to run Veterans and notice getting stressed out and sweaty at the thought of the next boss fight. That hasn't happened to me since 15 years ago when l touched my first video game. l play a healer in any MMO and needless to say l did the same here.. after so many years l had expected to steamroll over everything by experience alone but l was mistaken, it takes TIME and PRACTICE to reach anywhere in this game. People complain that it's too hard here and then go to WoW and complain LFR is too easy. 
 
Back to my original point, there's far too much crying over difficulty. l don't know how old most of the posters are but it sounds like at least SOME are too lazy to put in the effort. What are you playing the game for? For free epicz or for the thrill of when you finally finish that dungeon/raid/whatever? To me, it's a no-brainer. l'd rather take *hard* over free, any day.
 
l realize this may sound like an elitist post and l can assure you, it's not. l relate to the Wildstar noobs, l am one myself still but what l know for sure is that it gets easier. You just need some people that aren't complete retards by your side and you'll be farming those dungeons without a problem. l play with my husband and we've both been running around having no clue what to do ever since it went f2p. It went from impossible, to stressful, to manageable. Keep at it, it gets better BUT.. put in your part of the work as well. When l see people in Veterans with no runes and they start barking orders and complain left and right l tend to get quite sarcastic and annoyed. Learn your spec, rune your gear, read a guide and carry that damn party from start to finish! :)
			
				
	Edited December 3, 2015 by Kelmore	
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l'm a fairly new Wildstar player and l have to say l don't get what all the complaining is about. The game is not *hard*, it just requires you to wake up from that sleepy state in which WoW dungeons put you for so many years, open your eyes and react. l'm a long-time WoW raider at the highest level and in all honesty Wildstar surprised me in the best of ways when it came to the PvE. It was a completely unexpected turnout when l finally got to run Veterans and notice getting stressed out and sweaty at the thought of the next boss fight. That hasn't happened to me since 15 years ago when l touched my first video game. l play a healer in any MMO and needless to say l did the same here.. after so many years l had expected to steamroll over everything by experience alone but l was mistaken, it takes TIME and PRACTICE to reach anywhere in this game. People complain that it's too hard here and then go to WoW and complain LFR is too easy. 
 
Back to my original point, there's far too much crying over difficulty. l don't know how old most of the posters are but it sounds like at least SOME are too lazy to put in the effort. What are you playing the game for? For free epicz or for the thrill of when you finally finish that dungeon/raid/whatever? To me, it's a no-brainer. l'd rather take *hard* over free, any day.
 
l realize this may sound like an elitist post and l can assure you, it's not. l relate to the Wildstar noobs, l am one myself still but what l know for sure is that it gets easier. You just need some people that aren't complete retards by your side and you'll be farming those dungeons without a problem. l play with my husband and we've both been running around having no clue what to do ever since it went f2p. It went from impossible, to stressful, to manageable. Keep at it, it gets better BUT.. put in your part of the work as well. When l see people in Veterans with no runes and they start barking orders and complain left and right l tend to get quite sarcastic and annoyed. Learn your spec, rune your gear, read a guide and carry that damn party from start to finish! :)
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l realize this may sound like an elitist post and l can assure you, it's not. 
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Reconcile the first quote with the second quote, please.
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			Never go full retard! :P	
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It went from impossible, to stressful, to manageable. Keep at it, it gets better 
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We're talking about veteran dungeons here.. no matter how 'average' you are, you'll still get the hang of it eventually. People just seem to try twice and then alt+f4 cause iz too hardz. Average shouldn't mean impatient.
 
Obviously when it comes to raids, they should be harder but the only thing l see on this kind of topics is 'veterans are too hard'. If you do normal dungeons while leveling then you'll see the actual steps you need to go through to progress and they do illustrate what you just said, the exact opposite. Some folks seems to PvP or whatever they do to level and then hope to hop right into veterans and get ilvl 80 in one day and when that doesn't happen they come cry here. That's the point l was trying to make but not sure l did in the end.. participate and it'll happen..don't just show up and then quit when you can't 1shot the boss. PvE content is meant to be difficult (especially in this game) and get easier as you practice. And isn't that how it goes in any MMO with this type of content? (dungeons/raids you can farm to no end)	
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We're talking about veteran dungeons here.. no matter how 'average' you are, you'll still get the hang of it eventually. People just seem to try twice and then alt+f4 cause iz too hardz. Average shouldn't mean impatient.
 
Obviously when it comes to raids, they should be harder but the only thing l see on this kind of topics is 'veterans are too hard'. If you do normal dungeons while leveling then you'll see the actual steps you need to go through to progress and they do illustrate what you just said, the exact opposite. Some folks seems to PvP or whatever they do to level and then hope to hop right into veterans and get ilvl 80 in one day and when that doesn't happen they come cry here. That's the point l was trying to make but not sure l did in the end.. participate and it'll happen..don't just show up and then quit when you can't 1shot the boss. PvE content is meant to be difficult (especially in this game) and get easier as you practice. And isn't that how it goes in any MMO with this type of content? (dungeons/raids you can farm to no end)
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I understand the point. The problem is that Veteran Dungeons seem to be where many players first jump in and then get discouraged for various reasons - difficulty, gearing, community etc.
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It also doesn't help that relatively new players see in /lfg (on Entity) recruitment for vet dungeons with adverts like, "LFM vet dungeons, i100+ only" and "Vet dungeons LFM who won't die". 
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			Sometimes it's so hard to be encouraged when ppl get mad at u. Not saying it's not my fault and they should understand but just sometimes u feel like ppl don't want u no more	
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Sometimes it's so hard to be encouraged when ppl get mad at u. Not saying it's not my fault and they should understand but just sometimes u feel like ppl don't want u no more
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I've noticed people give up to easily.  Also, notice people haze on others, but if you show up with proper gear, and runed, and say hey, this is my first time, or I have issues with this than most community is actual helpful.  But You get the occasional, you don't konw this, didnt you watch a video already?  Sorry, but watching videos don't teach you how to play.  
 
But a big problem now is gearing up for the vet dungeon.  Adventures don't pop and Leveling/vet shiphands is just cutting it gearwise for dungeons.  But also not many know how to rune because there isn't very much in the way of show you what you have to rune or how important it is.  Other than players telling you, go rune your gear.  You can pvp and get a full pvp legendary (orange) i70 set, and that gear is good.  Actually really good,  Good enough that you can skip vet dungeons and go right into raiding.  I pull 10k dps on the x89 dummy in my pvp gear and I'm not even geared for pve wise, I have pvp fusion runes and a couple crit mit runes.  But no one tells people this.  PVE vet dungeon gear is still better.  I think if they improved adventures so poeple would queue up for them, than people would have the gear to do vet dungeons.  Adventures still teach group mechanics, just a lot easier scale than dungeons.	
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I've noticed people give up to easily.  Also, notice people haze on others, but if you show up with proper gear, and runed, and say hey, this is my first time, or I have issues with this than most community is actual helpful.  But You get the occasional, you don't konw this, didnt you watch a video already?  Sorry, but watching videos don't teach you how to play.  
 
But a big problem now is gearing up for the vet dungeon.  Adventures don't pop and Leveling/vet shiphands is just cutting it gearwise for dungeons.  But also not many know how to rune because there isn't very much in the way of show you what you have to rune or how important it is.  Other than players telling you, go rune your gear.  You can pvp and get a full pvp legendary (orange) i70 set, and that gear is good.  Actually really good,  Good enough that you can skip vet dungeons and go right into raiding.  I pull 10k dps on the x89 dummy in my pvp gear and I'm not even geared for pve wise, I have pvp fusion runes and a couple crit mit runes.  But no one tells people this.  PVE vet dungeon gear is still better.  I think if they improved adventures so poeple would queue up for them, than people would have the gear to do vet dungeons.  Adventures still teach group mechanics, just a lot easier scale than dungeons.
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			its simple... if you show up in the gear you aquire before dungeons(like adventure ilvl +) and you have some kind of runes in your gear - then you should be able to show up - let people know it's your first time, and if you get kicked - those people should be punished with a 30 minute stacking deserters that ticks while you're logged in... if you want easy peasy speed runs, just /lfg your whole party or deal with the fact that you can only become a plumber by getting a job as a plumber, and that doesnt work if plumbers only hire plumbers. plumbing is an example - im sure someone will try to say technically there are schools/we for it - but all you have to do is look at craigslist jobs for instance and you'll see almost all of the ones that require experience are ones you can only get by getting hired by the ones that "require experience". 	
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And see, that is precisely why I'll enjoy the leveling and zone/world lore game play, but will not take part in Wildstar endgame. Sure, 10 years ago I would have dove into content like that. Now? No. Now I play to relax after a helluva day. I'm just not looking for that type of play-stress anymore.
 
Does that mean Wildstar should change? Absolutely not. I have no issue with how Wildstar is built. It only means that after I'm done leveling a few classes just for the fun experience, I'll likely shelve the game and stick to WoW or SWTOR for my main game play.
 
And don't take this the wrong way. I'm not, in any way, coming down on the folks that want the type of game play that Wildstar endgame offers. To be honest, I'm glad you guys have a game where you can get it; just as people like me get what we want over in WoW or SWTOR. I was simply stating as a play-style counterpoint why Wildstar failed to hold me long term.
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l'm a fairly new Wildstar player and l have to say l don't get what all the complaining is about. The game is not *hard*, it just requires you to wake up from that sleepy state in which WoW dungeons put you for so many years, open your eyes and react. l'm a long-time WoW raider at the highest level and in all honesty Wildstar surprised me in the best of ways when it came to the PvE. It was a completely unexpected turnout when l finally got to run Veterans and notice getting stressed out and sweaty at the thought of the next boss fight. 
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Does that mean Wildstar should change? Absolutely not. I have no issue with how Wildstar is built. It only means that after I'm done leveling a few classes just for the fun experience, I'll likely shelve the game and stick to WoW or SWTOR for my main game play.
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l'm a fairly new Wildstar player and l have to say l don't get what all the complaining is about. The game is not *hard*, it just requires you to wake up from that sleepy state in which WoW dungeons put you for so many years, open your eyes and react. l'm a long-time WoW raider at the highest level and in all honesty Wildstar surprised me in the best of ways when it came to the PvE. It was a completely unexpected turnout when l finally got to run Veterans and notice getting stressed out and sweaty at the thought of the next boss fight. That hasn't happened to me since 15 years ago when l touched my first video game. l play a healer in any MMO and needless to say l did the same here.. after so many years l had expected to steamroll over everything by experience alone but l was mistaken, it takes TIME and PRACTICE to reach anywhere in this game. People complain that it's too hard here and then go to WoW and complain LFR is too easy. 
 
Back to my original point, there's far too much crying over difficulty. l don't know how old most of the posters are but it sounds like at least SOME are too lazy to put in the effort. What are you playing the game for? For free epicz or for the thrill of when you finally finish that dungeon/raid/whatever? To me, it's a no-brainer. l'd rather take *hard* over free, any day.
 
l realize this may sound like an elitist post and l can assure you, it's not. l relate to the Wildstar noobs, l am one myself still but what l know for sure is that it gets easier. You just need some people that aren't complete retards by your side and you'll be farming those dungeons without a problem. l play with my husband and we've both been running around having no clue what to do ever since it went f2p. It went from impossible, to stressful, to manageable. Keep at it, it gets better BUT.. put in your part of the work as well. When l see people in Veterans with no runes and they start barking orders and complain left and right l tend to get quite sarcastic and annoyed. Learn your spec, rune your gear, read a guide and carry that damn party from start to finish! :)
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I understand the point. The problem is that Veteran Dungeons seem to be where many players first jump in and then get discouraged for various reasons - difficulty, gearing, community etc.
 
I know the intended progression is Normal Dungeons (while levelling) -> Adventures -> Veteran Dungeons -> Raids. But for various reasons this progression path doesn't seem to be working.
 
A lot of players don't do dungeons while leveling due to problems forming groups (few players level as tanks and healers), a general rush to 50 and the fact that leveling is mostly a solo experience etc. So many hit 50 having never set foot in a dungeon and barely any group content outside of the odd zone event.
 
Adventures are not the right training ground for Veteran Dungeons, they are a different animal aimed at a different experience. As we know, not many players run Adventures.
 
So, players dive straight into Veteran Dungeons, unprepared, undergeared and often un-runed. The results are inevitable. If they are lucky enough to have good friends or guild mates around them to help them through they may well keep trying and eventually make progress. But if they don't have that assistance or are in a PUG situation, chances are it's all too stressful and not a lot of fun.
 
Is this the players fault? Partly. Anyone who plays a game needs to do some research about how best to progress in it. But it's also a game design issue. I'm not suggesting Carbine need to hold players hands, but the way progression content is designed, organised and [not] documented in the game really doesn't help. Not everyone has the willpower / patience to continue under these conditions when there are other more accessible games out there. Note I didn't say "easier", I said "more accessible".
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Carbine knows they have to communicate this easier.  Gating is one way of communicating this without too much trouble.
'You must do all of the following content before you are permitted to queue for this Veteran Dungeon'.
Think of it as partial attunement that only requires a completion credit of the previous things (and maybe a faction reputation grind for dailies).
 
The previous attunement (from what I've heard) was absurdly long.  We don't really need a full return of it HOWEVER we need some kind of gating done.
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Carbine has said the Level 50 progression is as follows:
(1) Daily quest zones
(2) Veteran Expeditions
(3) Veteran Adventures
(4) Veteran Dungeons
(5) Raids
 
People are skipping the first 3, going straight to the Veteran Dungeons, then wondering why they're getting insta-kicked or wiping so hard, then blame the game and leave.
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Yeah, and people rush to 50 and want to get the best gear ASAP. So they get into Vet Dungeons and are smacked in the face with the difficulty. Early on in this game (when silver was still a requirement for attunement) we would run the NORMAL version of the instance to learn the mechanics (watered down, but you still got the gist of it).
 
So that's the MAIN problem right now. Yes it's incredibly hard right now to get a lower level group together to run dungeons as you level, but that's a culture issue. The people complaining are rushing to 50, and then rushing to get the highest ilvl without taking the time to LEARN.
 
I think if more people that hit 50 actually queued for normal dungeons, then the experience while leveling would be significantly different. More people would be running dungeons earlier because truly fresh 50s (not vets that know the fights) can learn the fights while helping lower level players learn the fights too and helping them get gear. It's a win/win in my mind.
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When you hit 50, make sure you do expeditions, the various open world events, omnicore-1, adventures if you can find groups for them, and the world bosses. These all should fit the bill of the relaxing content you are looking for. Don't be misled into thinking that everything at 50 is stressful :)
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Carbine has said the Level 50 progression is as follows:
(1) Daily quest zones
(2) Veteran Expeditions
(3) Veteran Adventures
(4) Veteran Dungeons
(5) Raids
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I'll say it again, level 50 progression is borked. You can get as mad as you want about players turning up in Veteran Dungeons unprepared, undergeared and wet behind the ears, but it seems to be inevitable given the system. You can't blame players for hitting 50 and wanting to immediately get involved in group content. Telling them they need to spend several weeks running solo content - dailies, contracts, expeditions - to be ready for group content doesn't make much sense.
 
And as others have said, Double XP Weekends only make things worse. As would instant level 50 characters if these are ever added to the cash shop.
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			Other new level 50 content: siege of the lightspire, world bosses, and starcomm.	
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Other new level 50 content: siege of the lightspire, world bosses, and starcomm.
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The end-boss of Omnichore-1 is (or was) really challenging for a fresh 50 with unruned gear.  It's a really fun fight and pretty much what convinced me to get Kitty's gear runed out.  Don't know if that's changed any since I stopped running it (about a month or two after it was introduced).
 
The rest of the instance is beautiful but a snoozefest.  If there was a cut down version (some trash plus end-boss) I'd probably bother running it.
 
I should run Kitty through it in her current gearset just to see how it goes :lol:
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I'll admit that as a returning player for f2p I looked most of the progression line up online. I do feel like the game could do a slightly better job of educating players of the progression path though, had a friend just hit 50 and the game basically told him "hey go do vet dungeons". Had to tell slick over there to slow down a minute :P
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Oh god, please no, if that ever shows up that'll just be sad...it's already ridiculously fast to get to 50. I could understand it we're talking level caps in the 100+ range but 50 takes almost no time at all for someone right now. The day instant 50 shows up, we're all screwed! :P
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The reality, though, is that WoW and SWTOR already do this. Well okay, SWTOR right now only offers it as a part of KoTFE, but BioWare already said it is coming to the cash shop in 2016. So, the moment NCSoft/Carbine believe that they can also make money off such a deal, we'll be seeing instant 50's in the cash shop. Especially since with little true incentive to subscribe, it's obvious Wildstar needs to be heavily cash shop reliant to make it now.
 
Leveling speed doesn't really play a factor in a decision to offer it. Leveling in WoW is not a chore, and it's even faster in SWTOR now. Yet, instant level caps are there for the buying.
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Leveling speed doesn't really play a factor in a decision to offer it. Leveling in WoW is not a chore, ...
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Isn't this the opposite of what a difficulty / learning curve should look like if you want the average player to participate and succeed?
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Carbine has said the Level 50 progression is as follows:
(1) Daily quest zones
(2) Veteran Expeditions
(3) Veteran Adventures
(4) Veteran Dungeons
(5) Raids
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