138555-elitists-kicking-new-players-from-party-uninstalled-page-4

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Every thread where I say "there should be a version for casuals and a version for hardcores" preserves hardcore content, chum. 
 
If more challenging content is kept more rewarding, the easy option isn't the same as the harder option. So this argument is just as flawed today as it has been every time someone on these forums has brought it up--and it's been brought up a lot.
 
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That is not preserving hardcore anything. I'll reference WoW, again (solely because its the one most people know), when LFR was put into the game a ton more people saw the raids. However, out of those that did there was a drop in those doing the harder content. Why bother with it? You can get the same gear, same look, the only difference is some ilvls which you don't need to do any of the other content. So how did you perserve anything? You would be taking away from the harder content due to lack of people that want to get there. You are correct in saying that most people don't want to be the best or anything close to it. They just want to see the content and maybe get the fluff stuff, housing stuff/costumes/etc. If they can do that in a weaker version then there goes the harder ones. 
 
You simply can not put content on 2 levels and expect both to flourish because it will never happen and has never happened in history. Said it once and I'll say it again, if you give people an easier way to do something they will always take it and that will become their end game. Just as LFR has become for a ton of people in WoW. Just head over to their forums and see for yourself how many threads evolve into the 'I only do LFR because I don't have time or don't want to find a guild'. At launch there was around 4% of the playerbase doing high end raids. By Cata that number dropped to under 2%. Now its more than likely under 1%. While casualizing (patent pending!) a game may be better financially, it is i won't deny that, it does not keep the hard stuff around. WoW dungeons used to be fun. Now they are a complete joke and no one even bothers with them after 2 weeks of an xpac.
 
Edit - Correction, no higher end players bother with dungeons. People still run them for various reasons.
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Seems that ppl forgot why this game went f2p, and the community is  clearly over estimated in its "kindness".
Elitist, veteran players making new alts, and are kicking new players from dungeon, if they dont dare or arent capable of clearing the dungeon at the pace these elitists want to. Ofc smurf account, already decked in gear with vast knowledge of the game will trump over any new player, at any day, but this....this is for you TO JUDGE, and to remember maybe why this game went f2p ( sorry for it but its truth).
This wasnt an isolated case either, i guess i should have learn to keep my mouth SHUT .
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unless I am very much not understanding things in Wildstar (I am not high level yet), Isn't there already 2 levels of dungeons? Normal and Veteran? So for someone like me who can probably cut the normal version but not veteran, I am still free to stop right there and skip all the veteran stuff. See people like me wouldn't be moving up to the top levels anyways.
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That is not preserving hardcore anything. I'll reference WoW, again (solely because its the one most people know), when LFR was put into the game a ton more people saw the raids. However, out of those that did there was a drop in those doing the harder content. Why bother with it? You can get the same gear, same look, the only difference is some ilvls which you don't need to do any of the other content. So how did you perserve anything? You would be taking away from the harder content due to lack of people that want to get there. You are correct in saying that most people don't want to be the best or anything close to it. They just want to see the content and maybe get the fluff stuff, housing stuff/costumes/etc. If they can do that in a weaker version then there goes the harder ones. 
 
You simply can not put content on 2 levels and expect both to flourish because it will never happen and has never happened in history. Said it once and I'll say it again, if you give people an easier way to do something they will always take it and that will become their end game. Just as LFR has become for a ton of people in WoW. Just head over to their forums and see for yourself how many threads evolve into the 'I only do LFR because I don't have time or don't want to find a guild'. At launch there was around 4% of the playerbase doing high end raids. By Cata that number dropped to under 2%. Now its more than likely under 1%. While casualizing (patent pending!) a game may be better financially, it is i won't deny that, it does not keep the hard stuff around. WoW dungeons used to be fun. Now they are a complete joke and no one even bothers with them after 2 weeks of an xpac.
 
Edit - Correction, no higher end players bother with dungeons. People still run them for various reasons.
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Vets add 1 or two mechanics to a boss that you have to coordinate interrupts for, other than that they are the same.  Don't be too scared :)     (That's the short version of the explanation)
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And this is the reason why I give the elite players a hard time
maybe it's because I played the games in the old days like "Tibia" in tibia you can't afford to be nice
now that the devs have entirely transition that from the way we used to play games. Now everyone have to play nice
but old habit still stays
 
I remember when I played Warr in WoW when warr was the only tanking class.
often time I would just afk and act like a five years old. Or like now when I play league
I would have my friend duo queue with me to high mmr but slowly "gatekeeping"
my way back down to a low mmr, then duo with my friend to go back up(he can use the practice
guy is so good he is a tutor at league)
 
 
Only this method you can get the elite attitude out of our younger/immature players.	
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And this is the reason why I give the elite players a hard time
maybe it's because I played the games in the old days like "Tibia" in tibia you can't afford to be nice
now that the devs have entirely transition that from the way we used to play games. Now everyone have to play nice
but old habit still stays
 
I remember when I played Warr in WoW when warr was the only tanking class.
often time I would just afk and act like a five years old. Or like now when I play league
I would have my friend duo queue with me to high mmr but slowly "gatekeeping"
my way back down to a low mmr, then duo with my friend to go back up(he can use the practice
guy is so good he is a tutor at league)
 
 
Only this method you can get the elite attitude out of our younger/immature players.
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And this is the reason why I give the elite players a hard time
maybe it's because I played the games in the old days like "Tibia" in tibia you can't afford to be nice
now that the devs have entirely transition that from the way we used to play games. Now everyone have to play nice
but old habit still stays
 
I remember when I played Warr in WoW when warr was the only tanking class.
often time I would just afk and act like a five years old. Or like now when I play league
I would have my friend duo queue with me to high mmr but slowly "gatekeeping"
my way back down to a low mmr, then duo with my friend to go back up(he can use the practice
guy is so good he is a tutor at league)
 
 
Only this method you can get the elite attitude out of our younger/immature players.
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That is not preserving hardcore anything. I'll reference WoW, again (solely because its the one most people know), when LFR was put into the game a ton more people saw the raids. However, out of those that did there was a drop in those doing the harder content. Why bother with it? You can get the same gear, same look, the only difference is some ilvls which you don't need to do any of the other content. So how did you perserve anything? 
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Judging an entire group by the actions of a few people is ignorant and insulting to those you're judging.
 
Instead of grasping onto this idea that the people who are above you in progression are 'elitist', you should just be a nice person to the people you meet in game and if you encounter someone with a bad attitude, ignore that one person and move on.	
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Vets add 1 or two mechanics to a boss that you have to coordinate interrupts for, other than that they are the same.  
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all these people that are saying bye and such are forgetting that YOU NEED THESE PLAYERS! low pop is one of the top reasons why this game went f2p.... actually cupcake it im talking to a wall.
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I said I was interested in making the hardcore content available for people who want hardcore content, and that I was interested in preserving appropriately increased reward for more challenging versions of the content to ensure that completing the greater challenge is worthwhile. And I am.
 
If the number of people doing hardcore raids dropped once less challenging and less rewarding versions became available, then fundamentally it wasn't the increased challenge or the increased reward that was drawing those people in--it was the lack of any way to do the content that they would enjoy more than the hardcore version that was previously their only option.Nevertheless, unless I've badly misunderstood how things are in WoW, there are still hardcore raids and there are still people who want to do them for the increased challenge/reward and still do so even without forcing everyone else into those hardcore versions. And good for them for doing so without coercing everyone around them.
 
I will do everything in my power to preserve your right to enjoy content at the hardcore level you prefer, but actually doing it is still up to you.
If there are so few people who actually want to do the increased challenge that it won't happen even when it is accompanied by appropriately increased rewards, that's not my problem or my concern.
And if the only way you can have what you want is by denying options to everyone around you, that's where your cause and my support part company.
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I don't get why y'all give yasfan a hard time. She seems to be promoting the game in a positive way. NOT trying to take sides, the notion that there is even sides in this is silly. Just saying, this "debate" has pre determined annotations that make it irrelevant, and yasfan is the person I see trying to promote a positive gaming experience. 
 
Unless!!! Of course, y'all want a "white collar" gaming community. Which, is what y'all are continuing to do, even after a less than phenomenal release. This community isn't bad. Granted, I've ran into a lot of negative players in my "returning player" playtime, but not nearly as bad as say LoL or SWTOR. I've only had to leave the group once during a dungeon, so far! 
 
Again, not trying to take sides. But! A lot of you seem (very minimal based assumption) seem to be forgetting that a lot of the new players are likely vets in other games. Or, at the very least have played an MMO before. When those players are calling this community "bad" or "negative" (a common thing to do), it's because it worse than the other games they've played. I know I can't change y'alls' minds, but you should stop promoting such a negative stigma that comes from Wildstar's community. Seriously, after the last failure of this game (failure compared to a game such as GW2), I'm surprised y'all still remain as hard headed and stagnant as y'all were a year ago. 
 
Just to add some humor to this post (I actually tried really hard to be nice and not seem too negative), this reminds me of the threads... "Medic isn't just a healer!". Who else remembers those!? Gah! I remembering trying to convince people that Medic can run a DPS spec. "You're called a "Medic", all you can do is heal." Poor TF2 mentality...  :P
 
Edit: Just to reiterate, not trying to take sides OR spark the debate. Just kind of sharing my opinion (a dangerous thing to do, online!) and observations as a returning player after playing the OBT and launch.
			
				
	Edited October 10, 2015 by SkyCake	
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That's not true, actually. The previously existing mechanics are tuned up and made generally more difficult in addition to the new mechanics that are added. For things that aren't instakill mechanics, that's not a problem because your character's gear and abilities are also tuned up.
 
For "dodge-or-die" mechanics, faster casts are not offset by improvements to your character's progress because your character's stats and gear have nothing to do with your latency and reflexes. If your latency and reflexes aren't considerably better than required for the normal content, you won't be doing it successfully in the veteran content no matter how many times your character has leveled up.
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My first run of Ruins of Kel Vorath had 1 of these elitists raging at mistakes i made but the rest of the group was supportive and even voted to kick that guy instead of me, in fact every pug ive had so far has been nice or just silently getting the job done
 
In that KV run i accidentally pulled the boss while we were fighting something else, the elitist started raging as soon as i pulled it and rather than trying to win he just died on purpose and told us all to wipe, without him we got the boss to like 1/3rd hp before we wiped, we probably couldve killed the boss had he just kept trying instead of giving up
 
After we wiped he kept complaining, but i went afk for a minute and when i got back they were all dead, they didnt notice i wasnt there and tried the boss again and somehow died in the 2 minutes i wasnt there, so i thought i would have to kill myself for them to revive (ive never had a group wipe where 1 person lived so i wasnt sure how reviving worked in dungeons) so i ran into the boss area prepared to die and they all revived at the same time before i died, so now im in locked in the boss area, the elitist is raging even harder than before, somehow i lost aggro on the boss and the area unlocked without me having to die
 
While i was locked into the boss area is when the vote kicked happened, i thought it was a vote for me to be kicked since i had made many mistakes but it was for him and i went back to read the chat and the others were all telling him to relax, i was really surprised, i didnt vote yes and the vote failed to kick him but it shut him up, we did the boss again and the tank died but we managed to finish it without him mostly because of me and the healer since i was #1 in damage at the end and after the tank died i ended up tanking with the healer keeping me alive
 
Ill never understand why people would rage in low level dungeons, its just silly to take a level 25 normal difficulty dungeon so seriously, i could see it if you were level 50 farming the hardest/highest level dungeon for the best rewards, but this is just a leveling dungeon that most people do once just to experience it for fun	
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Solo'ing is hardcore, grouping up is hardcore, oh and raiding is hardcore.
Let's not forget pvp is hardcore as well.  Can also include expeditions and dungeons as well.  Dailies are Hardcore.
This is not a personal attack on anybody, but I am sick and tired of people throwing around hardcore in a (maybe serious) debate, hardcore content is subjective at best. 
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I think every game has a few bad apples Wildstar for the most part, seems to be pretty good, at 50 some of the well-geared players happily carry newbies through zone. they understand you might not know the fights and often will help you learn the strats.
 
Now if you ran into a brick wall on the second boss in KV, and then your group broke don't you are in good company. Probably the one of the hardest dungeon bosses in the entire game.
			
				
	Edited October 10, 2015 by bbates024	
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But that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about less challenging and less rewarding versions of the content. It is not an easier path to the rewards because the content at that level of difficulty doesn't provide those rewards.
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yes, was kick
rest is server errors...
No need to bump this no more, the game files are gone from my system
For whats worth it, while playing alone i did had fun, leveling up to 25 , i loved the combat moves and how one ability can buff another.
Also i liked a lot the path system that allowed me to buff myself and others that was awesome, for a change hehe, i even managed to buy me a mount  :)
Well, have fun everyone, and thank you for your company.
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If you'd prefer that I insert a different word for "challenging content that is intentionally not possible to beat through typical gameplay without high levels of experience, skill, and/or practice", I'm happy to use something else. Any suggestions?
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We're talking about less challenging and less rewarding versions of the content. It is not an easier path to the rewards because the content at that level of difficulty doesn't provide those rewards.
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It is pretty dang awesome to see someone convey a sentiment you hold about a thousand percent better than you could ever hope to do so.
 
Good job, Meirlkor.  A+	
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If you are new:
 
- Do shiphands first.
- Then do more a little more shiphands, aim for gold and get your blue gear from the vendors (contracts area, you don't know what this is? Ask someone in Thayd and do contracts too).
- Ask people, read threads online about your class, role and how to gear it.
- Rune your shiphand gear + whatever you bought in the auction house with ilvl 50 runes, no need to fully min max or sets, but atleast improve your stats, a unruned person in this game is completely useless, specially in the hands of a newbye. If you are getting into the LFG tool on questing level greens with no runes, you are basically trying to get hard carried, so yes it's rude.
- Start doing dungeons, be proactive, ask people about stuff, bosses and read what others are telling you, and in particular practice interrupts, carry 3+ interrupts, you will be way more useful interrupting full than doing trying to do full DPS if you are not able to interrupt at the same time.
- Have fun
 
I will be honest, i had raged at some newbie (not kicked tho... yet), the reason is because i saw their gear, i knew what will happen and tried to explain stuff in the instance chat about bosses, asked them if they had interrupts/knew how to use them. Zero communication from them. So yeah, go screw yourself and get somebody else to carry your ass if you just expect to "experience" the content withouth moving a finger first.
			
				
	Edited October 10, 2015 by Keldaur	
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If you are new:
 
- Do shiphands first.
- Then do more a little more shiphands, aim for gold and get your blue gear from the vendors (contracts area, you don't know what this is? Ask someone in Thayd and do contracts too).
- Ask people, read threads online about your class, role and how to gear it.
- Rune your shiphand gear + whatever you bought in the auction house with ilvl 50 runes, no need to fully min max or sets, but atleast improve your stats, a unruned person in this game is completely useless, specially in the hands of a newbye. If you are getting into the LFG tool on questing level greens with no runes, you are basically trying to get hard carried, so yes it's rude.
- Start doing dungeons, be proactive, ask people about stuff, bosses and read what others are telling you, and in particular practice interrupts, carry 3+ interrupts, you will be way more useful interrupting full than doing trying to do full DPS if you are not able to interrupt at the same time.
- Have fun
 
I will be honest, i had raged at some newbie (not kicked tho... yet), the reason is because i saw their gear, i knew what will happen and tried to explain stuff in the instance chat about bosses, asked them if they had interrupts/knew how to use them. Zero communication from them. So yeah, go screw yourself and get somebody else to carry your ass if you just expect to "experience" the content withouth moving a finger first.
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Regarding watching videos, totally not required. Most groups are happy to give info and help people out. Yes, there are some rude people out there- can't help that. It's just the nature of the beast.
 
As far as videos for raids- if it's a pug raid then, yes, you need to come in informed. A full clear is not going to take the time to stop and explain every mechanic. If it's a guild run, I will pull you aside and explain the key points you need to know and how to "stay out of the way". Generally people pick it up pretty fast once they see it. It would be different for a progression fight.
 
Though a person who watches videos before a run with us would probably have more fun.
			
				
	Edited October 10, 2015 by SlyJeff	
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The majority of people's experiences have been somewhat positive.  Raids aside, no need to watch some videos.  There's actually strat videos out now for dungeons and write ups though if you do want to watch a video.  The thing that drives me insane is when no one says anything.  If your new, say your new, people will have way more patience with you compared to if you go around under the impression you've done it or you don't say anything at all.  OH, when they don't say anything at all.......
 
Now it's starting to bug me when you have 0 runes in their gear.  When runes make up at least 2/3 of your stats, than thats important.  GO get high runes, or buy the actual runeset off the ah.  	
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			Also in regards to the people who don't want to do progression raiding;They will eventually be able to see everything. Just not right away. As time passes new gear becomes available from other sources that makes the older content easier.If they want to do the older raids they can go back with some pals then and do it and it's quite a bit easier.This is how it was in WoW until the end of Cataclysm and tbh - the extreme gear scaling and LFR combined killed "casual" play for me as I became extremely bored extremely quick. There was nothing meaningful left to do outside grind HK's.	
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If you are new:
 
- Rune your shiphand gear + whatever you bought in the auction house with ilvl 50 runes, no need to fully min max or sets, but atleast improve your stats, a unruned person in this game is completely useless, specially in the hands of a newbye. If you are getting into the LFG tool on questing level greens with no runes, you are basically trying to get hard carried, so yes it's rude.
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On another tangent... on why things like LFR are a bad idea: Lowering the skill needed for group content often means removing the need to do many mechanics. For example you could completely remove the 'razor blade phase' from Kel Vorath... Many players might cheer at this... But then you will start getting a whole generation of players that no longer slot interrupts, no longer dodge, and just spam the DPS keys... and they will start booting people OUT of groups for bringing interrupts and thus being "lower" on the DPS meter...
- and once that happens, the Devs get left with no choice but to remove the need for dodging and interrupts from harder content as well, or face player backlash because "this stuff is impossible"...
 
That is exactly the path WoW went down. It did give them 11 million players at one point - but that was also a special point in MMO history. Copying that path will NOT give Wildstar 11 million players. But it will give us the followup... after WoW started easying up everything else to match the removal of mechanics from the easy stuff... players started leaving, and have kept leaving... (sure there are MANY reasons people leave WoW, but the fact that the current game no longer gives the rush the old game did IS one of those reasons).
 
Sure you can 'ease it up a bit', but this is a very dangerous game because its a razor's edge where if you ease it up too much, you loose the challenge people get from the game, and they leave.
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Just got into an UPG wih a healer with an ilevel of 64. He really couldn't keep up, but he tried hard. At least three of the others were raid geared and knew the instance very will, and no one at all complained. I did mention he should look into better gear. We end up disbanding on bev-o-rage after about a half dozen tries. That heal check was a bridge too far in afraid.
 
My point being, we were all very respectful and encouraging, no one rage quit, and I think the healer left knowing what he needed to work on. Overall, this is more consistent with my game exepreonce than what OP reported.	
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Seems that ppl forgot why this game went f2p, and the community is  clearly over estimated in its "kindness".
Elitist, veteran players making new alts, and are kicking new players from dungeon, if they dont dare or arent capable of clearing the dungeon at the pace these elitists want to. Ofc smurf account, already decked in gear with vast knowledge of the game will trump over any new player, at any day, but this....this is for you TO JUDGE, and to remember maybe why this game went f2p ( sorry for it but its truth).
This wasnt an isolated case either, i guess i should have learn to keep my mouth SHUT .
 
 
 
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#1 I thought you said you wanted to leave? Why start a new thread?
First you cry about dungeons being too hard, then you cry about people kicking you. 
Maybe there is something you dont tell us. There is always 2 sides
https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/138092-ner-flow-level-dungeons/page-2
 
What about listening to some of the advices, instead of making empty threats and start a new forum post in a different section?
 
If you are ever going to start on another mmo again, stop being such a cry baby.
 
Dont let the door hit you on your way out...
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			New to wildstar, started like 3weeks ago..loving each moment. What I really like are dungeons and the challenge inherent. Just last night did my 2nd run on stormtalon and after killing the 1st boss 1of the members just turned around and exited the dungeon and kept on party (confused one probably). Although calling for him we didn't get any response, so after 5min just kicked him. Tried to get more ppl in and since it was 4am we decided to continue and wait for someone to tag in..final story point we ended the dungeon (4 manned) without wiping once at the last boss. we just stopped a bit before it and checked heal skills and interrupts. All lv20 chars. A bit off topic but a proof that the dungeon itself isn't that hard. Most of times Ltp issues, nothing more.	
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			Historians will look back at these forums and study it to truly understand why MMOs had some of the worst communities on the internet.	
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Ill never understand why people would rage in low level dungeons, its just silly to take a level 25 normal difficulty dungeon so seriously, 
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The majority of people's experiences have been somewhat positive.  Raids aside, no need to watch some videos.  There's actually strat videos out now for dungeons and write ups though if you do want to watch a video.  The thing that drives me insane is when no one says anything.  If your new, say your new, people will have way more patience with you compared to if you go around under the impression you've done it or you don't say anything at all.  OH, when they don't say anything at all.......
 
Now it's starting to bug me when you have 0 runes in their gear.  When runes make up at least 2/3 of your stats, than thats important.  GO get high runes, or buy the actual runeset off the ah.  
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Well I hope I'm not butting my head into a non-discussion here, but I'd like to hear what you think a less rewarding version of less challenging but otherwise identical content would be, or at least what the rewards would be.
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Having done both Protogames Academy and the Gatekeeper in TSW, I can say with confidence that the Gatekeeper does a much better job of making sure that each and every player understands the mechanics and class roles better than the Academy ever will. 
 
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MMOs bring out the worst of people.
 
Best genre ever created.
			
				
	Edited October 10, 2015 by kalfis049	
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[snip]
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Going to have to disagree here about the Gatekeeper in TSW.  The healing part which on it's own is self explainitory is (also fairly moot since Nightmares in TSW 1 shot anything that isn't the tank) the DPS part techs movement.  In fact teaching DPS to hinder or impair things is a bad thing, and I can count the number of times DPs need to purge on one hand.  The tanking one teachs you how to lose aggro since it encourages you to stack hitpoints to the detriment of damage (threat) and to impair.
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How about instead of nerfing content to make it easier Carbine supplies players with an in-game dungeon journal like WoW?
 
With an in-game written resource of what abilities a boss uses as well as tactical changes through fight phases a player can spend maybe a minute or two familiarizing themselves with the important mechanics of a boss fight without Carbine having to make the content easier or the players having to resort to outside sources.
 
I don't think that producing easier versions of game content should be the first resort, here.  It should be more important to find a way to raise the level of player's ability to what the game needs rather than lowering the game so that the people who don't care or don't want to put in effort can do it.
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Wow this thread still goes on...
 
Just make solo versions of dungeons that would "train the player" by explaining mechanics to him, and be done with this..
 
How to make the solo version of the dungeon:
1. copy group dungeon completely (with all bosses and mechanics)
2. nerf mob HP/ damage / interrupt requirements etc. (whats needed to make it possible for solo player to complete)
3. add NPC that would stand at edge of fights and shout hints to player	
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			If player dies too much and system detects player rages (smashing all keys together, hitting keyboard and mouse) NPC would yell "can i haz your stuff?" xD	
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[snip for space constraints]
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I am one of those people for whom WoWs dungeon journal is next to useless. A dry boring list of mechanics tends to result in me not remembering which mechanic goes with which boss. I do far better hunting down a video and SEEING it.
 
Take it from a retired school teacher. Different people learn best by different means. If you really want to teach a group of people how to do something you need to do it by multiple methods in the hopes of tapping something that works for most if not all of them. The dungeon journal was just ONE way.	
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I am one of those people for whom WoWs dungeon journal is next to useless. A dry boring list of mechanics tends to result in me not remembering which mechanic goes with which boss. I do far better hunting down a video and SEEING it.
 
Take it from a retired school teacher. Different people learn best by different means. If you really want to teach a group of people how to do something you need to do it by multiple methods in the hopes of tapping something that works for most if not all of them. The dungeon journal was just ONE way.
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I won't argue that point, but I will argue that having a resource of pertinent information readily available in-game will help more people than not.
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I am one of those people for whom WoWs dungeon journal is next to useless. A dry boring list of mechanics tends to result in me not remembering which mechanic goes with which boss. I do far better hunting down a video and SEEING it.
 
Take it from a retired school teacher. Different people learn best by different means. If you really want to teach a group of people how to do something you need to do it by multiple methods in the hopes of tapping something that works for most if not all of them. The dungeon journal was just ONE way.
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<snip>
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A lot of stuff.
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			This thread shows why Wildstar is dead even with F2P.	
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This thread shows why Wildstar is dead even with F2P.
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Such players are big reason why I left the game in the 1st place.
You join a pug via the automatic instance matching,and expect everyone to know the run?
Otoh,the game needs a group finder ala GW2.
Instead of picking the content you want to play and the game automatically building groups
with random players,you advertise the intent and any requirements for your party,
and people can join you there if it suits them.
it's so much better than just the automated system.	
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Shoo!
 
Nobody wants your doom and gloom.
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It's true. OP posts about elitism and thread is full of it. It's like the elitists don't realize the game was made F2P because the game was dying... and sadly it still is.
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I'll try to be as brief as possible here. Basically, I agree that a dungeon journal is a great idea; I doubt it will actually solve the problem in this game with this game's content whether it does so in WoW or not.
 
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A player is not mandated to raid. Raid content is meant to be challenging by virtue of its existence.  {snip}
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Long time reader (not raider) first time poster (in a yasfan) thread. Why you my ask, I can never think of anything better to say then Yasfan, and as usual my post would pale in comparison to their words. Always impeccable logical, always spot on and in the end will sadly be right on so many fronts, Yasfans words are the one's that should be remembered in History when they consider how to move MMO games in to the 21 Century 
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A player is not mandated to raid. 
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This is simply false. Raids do not have to be challenging and not all challenge must be restricted to raids. The defining features of a raid are: 1) instanced content; 2) large number of players working together to complete it; 3) a range of encounters engaged throughout the instance that increase in difficulty until they culminate in a boss. That's it. As for who is meant to be raiding, the answer better be "as much of the playerbase as is required to finance development of the raid" because the alternative is forcing the rest of the playerbase to support welfare raiding at their own expense.
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I must disagree with this point.  The current format of MMORPGs is so heavily skewed in favor of raid content being the 'true'  heart of the game, that in many cases once you reach level cap there's virtually nothing else to do. EVERYTHING at that point is steering you towards raids.  Dungeons, adventures, crafted gear, attunements, etc are all prepping you or leading you towards entering a raid.   Other content is viturally a side show, or second hand attraction.
 
This is yet another problem I feel is a fundamental flaw of modern MMORPGs.  There's such a massive divide between the types of gameplay that they offer within themselves. Leveling up is nothing like raiding or dungeons. Small unit content such as dungeons, adventures, and ship hands, are nothing like raiding. Raiding is, in fact,  almost a bait and switch situation within an MMO because it's so much different than the gameplay found anywhere else in the game.   Why is this? 
 
Why isn't the entire game dungeons and raids from level 1? Why the dramatic change in gameplay and content at level cap? Why split dev time attempting to cater to so many different types of players, from hardcore raiders to casual questers, or solo players vs large group content?    
 
But to get back on topic, to say that players are not mandated to raid is disingenuous when the entire end-game is centered around raiding.   
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The game sure as hell wasn't dying because people were being 'elitist'.
 
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How is content that is meant to be handled by 10+ people not intended to be challenging?  An enemy meant to be dealt with by 1 player is going to be significantly easier than an enemy meant to be dealt with by 2 players. 
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I still lol at the people that think NCSoft wasn't going to shutdown Wildstar if the numbers continued to drop.
 
Clearly none of you played CoH/CoV
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Do you seriously think that anybody thinks it's more challenging when a DPS check designed to be taken down by 2 DPS instead of 1 requires twice the DPS as one designed to be taken on by a single DPS? The DPS per person is exactly the same, which means that it's no more challenging for each player.  :rolleyes: In fact, it's less challenging because if one person fails to meet the threshold, they can still succeed by having the other take up the slack.
 
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Seems that ppl forgot why this game went f2p, and the community is  clearly over estimated in its "kindness".
Elitist, veteran players making new alts, and are kicking new players from dungeon, if they dont dare or arent capable of clearing the dungeon at the pace these elitists want to. Ofc smurf account, already decked in gear with vast knowledge of the game will trump over any new player, at any day, but this....this is for you TO JUDGE, and to remember maybe why this game went f2p ( sorry for it but its truth).
This wasnt an isolated case either, i guess i should have learn to keep my mouth SHUT .
 
 
 
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As an additional note: The game should not have to cater to people who are unwilling or unable to experience content.  It becomes an issue if a significant portion of players are trying to and yet still cannot, but if you simply choose not to gear yourself and find friends/allies or you simply don't have enough time to invest in the game (I should think a few hours a week would be more than enough to gear yourself for raiding though the overall time investment may be 'longer') it isn't a fault of the game.
 
The game provides all of this content and (as of the F2P relaunch) it is up to you to decide whether or not the value is sufficient to pay for it.  You want that costume on the shop?  Farm Omnibits or just buy some ncoin.  Don't have the time or the money to do that?  Unfortunately it's not up to the game to lower itself to your level.  Requirements and restrictions are a fact of life.  Not everyone can do everything.  Sometimes you can't be an olympic sprinter even if you train as hard as you possibly can.  That's not because the standards are set too high, it's because sometimes life is unfair and you just can't do it.
 
I'm sorry if this is getting a little 'too real' for a discussion about video games but I kind of feel it's a pertinent thing to say.  Game content should be readily accessible by those who play it, yes, but that doesn't mean you get to do all the things without putting in effort.  It's not fair to the person who spent weeks of their time getting gear and fighting raid bosses to have that content radically shifted (NOT REMOVED) so that a random gaggle of folks saunter in there in quest greens and do the same thing in a tenth of the time.  It's the same thing how it's not fair that a guy who has to work 5 days a week and maybe only has 6 hours of free game time over the weekend might not be able to budget enough of that free time towards playing a game in order to experience a raid.
 
If you want to see or do something you have to try.  You might not be able to do it even if you put all your effort into it, but that's just how life works.  The game doesn't owe you the raiding experience if you aren't going to bother putting in effort.	
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I had a longer post typed up, but I thought better of it, because it got deep into MMO design again and I don't think this is the place/thread to do it (we still see people replying to the OP).
 
To yasfan: I'm well aware that most people will do a variety of things. Hell, I'm one of them. PvP is probably the only part that I don't enjoy, I'll happily waste my time on pretty much everything else. It's also true that a lot more effort was put into Datascape than into Walatiki. It would be misleading of me to pretend otherwise. For what it's worth, I will likely never see the inside of Datascape myself. I came to Wildstar with some friends, and at best two of them are capable of top-tier raiding. I may not even get to see Genetic Archives, though I hope I do. But even though I won't because I am not willing to, I will not come here claiming that Datascape needs to be available to me and my friends. 
To thread: I think the real problem is as Elite Seraph says. I think the core design of a modern MMO (i.e. all of them except EVE Online) is fundamentally flawed. People flocked to WoW because it was new and did things that appealed to a wider public than older games like Everquest. It is possible a future MMO does WoW one better and has a similar surge in numbers for a while, but I think it, too, will die, like WoW and every other MMO is doing currently. MMOs are somehow intended or expected to be a game people play as a hobby for life. (see also http://www.lostgarden.com/2013/07/a-single-game-as-lifelong-hobby.html for more detail). But I don't think the current design of an MMO allows for that. The cost-to-profit ratio does not allow for it. The time invested by the developers, and what they produce in that time, cannot match the time invested by the players, and what they can do in that time.
 
With this in mind, I think I am no longer against the artificial extension of a game's lifespan via development shortcuts like taking existing content and creating retuned versions of it for other players. I am still not in favour of it - I think creating content specifically made for those types of players is a better option - but now I feel it's their only choice. And that is a real bummer.
			
				
	Edited October 11, 2015 by Meirlkor	
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I understand your point but...you really aren't required to raid.  I mean it's the same thing for the entire game, really.  MMOs are open-ended and therefore have no failure state for a player.  You could sit around at level 1 and use the game itself as little more than a fancy chat program with graphical elements you were so inclined and you'd still essentially be playing the game.
 
MMOs designed like Wildstar are essentially built to cater to a broad demographic of gamers in order to draw in customers.  There's quests if you're into those, PvP if you like competition, Dungeons and Raids if you like to party, and guilds if you like to hang out with people as you do whatever.  While endgame in MMOs like this is indeed littered with raiding that's simply because raids are designed to be the 'ultimate challenge' and as such raids at lower levels would serve little to no purpose.
 
You don't 'have' to do anything in a game like Wildstar.  The only things you need to do are the things you want.
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This is why I said it's almost a bait and switch situation.  Players from a broad demographic are drawn in, but the further you go into the game to more apparent it becomes that everything is centered around raiding.  When you first begin to play WIldstar, you're introduced into an open world with MANY things to do, and MANY types of gameplay. Challenges, questing, paths, crafting, ship-hands, exploring, etc.  Virtually everything in the world before level cap is solo-oriented, but enhanced by being in a group.   Then suddenly when you reach level cap the game changes dramatically, and EVERYTHING is steered in one way or another towards raiding.
 
That's why I said it's disingenuous to say that raiding is not mandated.   Yes, of course there are things to do outside of raiding, but it's VERY clear that the devs are focused on primarily providing and enhancing raid-oriented content.  But it's a bit like telling someone that they can do other things with their dump truck besides filling it up with stuff.  Oh, you can drive it to the grocery store, or you can use it as a taxi.  But you'd be completely missing the entire designed purpose of the thing.    
 
 What I would like to see is all areas of the game getting equal treatment.  More depth of content across the board, no matter what size your group or guild is.  5 man dungeons that are just as challenging as 20 man raids. Solo content that is legitimately difficult as well, which goes back to my idea of difficulty sliders and scaling content.   Sadly, I don't believe Carbine has the manpower or the funding to do these things.  Unless the F2P model they've chosen becomes WILDLY successful(pun intended), Wildstar is doomed to mediocrity due to it's poor initial design choices. They chose to copy older games and use industry standards instead of innovating and improving, and their game suffers for it. 
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			I'm glad the server population was near zero when I played and queue times made grouping impossible. It saved me a lot of frustration by the look of it	
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Lol bye.
 
 
You're bad anyways	
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The reason there tends to be a focus on raiding and raid content is that when the people reach the level cap and begin playing through that content they consume it quickly.  If you don't keep up with those people then you're going to lose a lot of those players who will cry that end game is weak.  Players of that type who might have been interested in the game will hear it has a weak end game and give it a pass.  Game population drops and eventually the other subgroups of players are affected and begin to dwindle, then the game starts to well and truly suffer from a declining population.  This is hardly the definitive a leads to b leads to c that always happens but you can't exactly say it's wrong.  The fact of the matter is that players who more readily take part in other kinds of content like exploration, socialization, and PvP have much higher upper limits than raiders.  Without enough new content to keep raiders going it invariably leads to the game suffering overall.
 
MMOs are not a big truck.  It's a series of tubes.
 
 
With that reference out of the way...I have to say I really hate dealing with metaphor.  If you contest the metaphor USING the metaphor it becomes a debate on meaning.  If you ignore the metaphor then it's tantamount to conceding the point.  The fact is that an MMO is a generalized gaming construct built to serve a myriad of purposes even if the focus might be on a particular single purpose.  A dump truck is a specialized vehicle built for a singular purpose.  Your metaphor conveys your point but it falls apart under scrutiny.  I wouldn't worry about it, myself, as I'm pretty dog crap at metaphor.
 
Regardless of whatever the focus might be on the FACT of the matter is that MMOs cater to a wide set of audiences and OF those audiences none of them are forced to participate in something they don't want to.  I don't have to PvP if I don't want to.  I don't have to run dungeons if I don't want to.  I don't have to raid if I don't want to.  I don't even have to do QUESTS if I don't feel like it.  All of these things are parts of the cohesive whole that is an MMO like Wildstar and while players may have to be involved with ONE aspect to even qualify as playing the game at all they are NOT required to take part in all aspects by any means.
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