118645-is-this-enough-for-you-carbine

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I m a fan of WS. Even before launch i was hyping my friends, post in gaming sites and forums and followed the game day by day.
 
At launch i was measuring played hours at Raptr (yes i know its not something that offers 100% accuracy but it sure shows a good trend) and it was in the top 5 places (600k+ hours/week) only behind WoW-LoL-Dota2-D3. This shows that many ppl interested in the first place about WS and many tried it, but the huge majority left soon after. Now its not even in the top 100...
 
I don't want another debate why ppl left WS. I m tired to discuss or read threads about it. What is done is done. Period.
 
I want to know if Carbine (or NCSoft) are happy with the current state of the game and especially with the population. Are you going to try make WS a game that will caters to many ppl or are you happy as it is? Is this game supposed to be a niche one? Will your future decisions be based in a target of a wider audience or you will be happy to maintain the current population? Are you going to (at least try) compete games like SWTOR-GW2-FFA-Rift etc or you have thrown a white towel already?
 
I hope your plans are to make WS a game for the masses and not a niche one. I know its not going well as it concerns profits and NcSoft fired many ppl. But in the end i want an answer about your focus target. May i have it pls?
 
Thank you.	
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			good, challenging game > many players.	
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			Now do we really need another game that wants to appeal to everyone? Just wondering. The game is moving in the right direction, but appealing to all crowds isn't the right way imo. 	
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"I hope your plans are to make WS a game for the masses and not a niche one."
 
Way Way Way too late for that pal.
I mean way too late.
 
WildStar's Combat and difficulty design make it a niche product from the get go.
I'm not sure if you understand game design and the market status at all if that's your interest. Wrong game to be telling to "not be niche" when it was designed in almost everyway to be a niche product.	
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My feeling is there are alot of people out there that want a challenging game to play.
 
Unfortunately, the ven diagram of the set of people that say they want a challenging game and the set of poeple that can actually play a challenging game is rather small.
 
Persosonally I think most players want an engaging game, a combat system that requires attention and the need to react.  Not brutally punishing nor something that can be finished while afking and placing your toon on /follow.  Wildstar has this, but they shot themselves in the foot when it came to the raid set up I think.  Attunments and 40 man raids would have been ok if they released the game 10 years ago, but not today.	
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			I hope Carbine's plans are not to make a game for the masses, they are boring. May I not have it pls?  No thank you.  Done. Period. Exclamation point for effect! 	
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			I don't know where you're getting your information OP, but WS has produced more revenue in the past 2 quarters than GW2.	
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I don't know where you're getting your information OP, but WS has produced more revenue in the past 2 quarters than GW2.
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Well, WS = subscription, sooo not really comparable
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I don't think they need to make it easier.
 
I'm a huge casual, but Wildstars combat and difficulty are what keep me coming back for more. I don't want to be able to face roll zones/ dungeons/ raids. 
 
I do on the other hand think Wildstar do need a huge publicity push soon. A lot of people who are wondering what mmo to try say 'Whats that then?' when I tell them about Wildstar.
 
I love Wildstar, I think a few adverts etc. would help more to too. :D	
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My feeling is there are alot of people out there that want a challenging game to play.
 
Unfortunately, the ven diagram of the set of people that say they want a challenging game and the set of poeple that can actually play a challenging game is rather small.
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I don't know where you're getting your information OP, but WS has produced more revenue in the past 2 quarters than GW2.
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To pitch in on what Quuarm and Rocio stated.
 
I think you make a good point about a lot of folks wanting something challenging but not necessarily being able to manage when faced with such. However I think it goes deeper than that. There are a lot of people out there that may not manage but certainly have the potential. For this potential to flourish however these folks may need some help. Getting into veteran content, and then getting wrecked since you have no idea what is going on because all the experienced people you are running with are rushing through it and not stopping for a second to explain anything is often the result, sadly enough. And that, quite understandably, demoralises these folks. But if you take them in there and take your time, explain how things work and guide them along, then you'll be amazed at how quickly a lot of people learn and pick things up and what a good time they'll have.
 
I don't really feel that Wildstar is all that niche. Sure there's a couple of things you need to be into before it will appeal to you, but I am under the impression that a lot of people that are being held back could find their place here if we'd help them along. Also, there's the loads of people for whom housing or RP is endgame and the difficulty of PvE is largely irrelevant.
 
And to the discussion at hand, I don't feel the game needs masses to be successful. As long as from drop 3 onwards the player base slowly grows Wildstar should be in an ok spot. We shall just have to wait and see if that is the case.	
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The reasons why people avoid or don't tackle "rich, dark coffee content" are legion. It could be any number of things: from physical disability, hardware limitations, time constraints whatever to just plain not-wanting to.
 
There's posts on the forums about people annoyed by twenty man dailies and five man quests and primes in quest areas. If these are issues with people can you imagine trying to coax these folks into Stormtalon Vet? They'd wilt faster than an Arborian Lily!
 
They're onto something with Omnicore a soloable instance that let's them pretend to accomplish something raid related. This is great. They should do the same with Vet Dungeons.	
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There are tons of generic MMOs for the masses, b2p, f2p and p2p.
 
 Why not try and stick with a niche just once?	
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			people are interested in the game as is, every day on here, reddit and other various forums you see not 1 but multiple posts asking if this game has changed/gotten better since launch.  many i see left because of optimization. i was lucky enough to not have to experience those problems because i built an up to date comp for this game. i dont really know what to tell people other than "its gotten better see for yourself."	
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			I would say that despite all the problems, if WS had a better optimization and megaservers were implemented at launch, it would be in a much better condition as it concerns population.	
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people are interested in the game as is, every day on here, reddit and other various forums you see not 1 but multiple posts asking if this game has changed/gotten better since launch.  many i see left because of optimization. i was lucky enough to not have to experience those problems because i built an up to date comp for this game. i dont really know what to tell people other than "its gotten better see for yourself."
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There are tons of generic MMOs for the masses, b2p, f2p and p2p.
 
 Why not try and stick with a niche just once?
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A nice free trial even for lapsed subscribers would work wonders here.
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i personally still think this is something best saved for post drop 4
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Sadly, when asked about what they want to see in a server, the number 1 response was population/community .
 
As an example: despite a myriad of complaints regarding PvP, the biggest complaint is that no one queues. This has been a long running issue, especially at higher levels. Now inertia has set in. People don't queue for PvP when wait time is unknown. Meaning, no one queues because no one queues.
 
Hopefully Wildstar can make a way to make people feel like they are on a popular game with people to play with and talk to. Give incentive to queue for PvP somehow and make PvP seem like a viable thing to do.
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I'm not sure whether it should wait to be implemented.  Advertised?  That can wait.  But giving lapsed subscribers a chance to check the optimization improvements seems like something they'd benefit from now.
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I'm not sure whether it should wait to be implemented.  Advertised?  That can wait.  But giving lapsed subscribers a chance to check the optimization improvements seems like something they'd benefit from now.
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I don't think WS is ready to bring ppl who quit back. Maybe its heading towards the right direction compared to launch, but it still has a lot to do in order to bring ppl back. Btw i also don't think optimization improvements are something that you can advertise, at least not yet. Optimization is still in very low levels.
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I want to know if Carbine (or NCSoft) are happy with the current state of the game and especially with the population. Are you going to try make WS a game that will caters to many ppl or are you happy as it is? Is this game supposed to be a niche one? Will your future decisions be based in a target of a wider audience or you will be happy to maintain the current population? Are you going to (at least try) compete games like SWTOR-GW2-FFA-Rift etc or you have thrown a white towel already?
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People often lose perspective of the fact that this game has only been live for 5 months.  In terms of an MMO life cycle, this thing still has it's umbilical cord attached.  It's easy to lose perspective when you care about something (or you're just one of those people who wants to state an opinion, because hey, stating an opinion is easy).  
 
But I'm going to say something that might blow some minds:  Oftentimes, I'm finding players are their own hurdles at doing content at this game - not the game design. Ever since launch, I see people complaining that they can't find a guild to do end-game content or level with or do whatever.  What's funny is... I didn't try hard to get attuned and get in a raid guild.  There are guilds advertising in Thayd zone chat every single day - I picked one with a cool name and joined it, because it said it was helping attune people.  I got along well with the guild, helped out where I could and showed interest in people other than myself.  Being selfless lead to a rewarding relationship and a few days later, I had all my vet Adventures done.  This was on Evindra pre-merger, which had a very low population.  Meanwhile what I see is "I want to do this dungeon for attunement", while not wanting to help anyone else and then players wondering why they don't have a network and have such a hard time finding content.  It especially wasn't hard to find another guild after the merger by any means.  Now I'm in GA raiding, and finding that most guilds don't have raid schedules much different than any other MMO I've played.  But yet every day I see someone complain that they can't find a guild.  You start to get the feeling that people are just waiting for someone to come pick them up and think they're this amazing thing to be showered with purples.  I put myself out there and took a chance and got everything done I've wanted to do in the game, and it didn't take much effort.  So I have to ask:  What is everyone else doing?  	
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possibly, but i think something can be said for the once bitten twice shy mentality, when people come back, it needs to be made sure, that the game is up to a standard that is ready to bring people back. there are many people that thnk because wildstar had a relatively bad initial response form the community it will never make it, im not among them. but i do believe you get a limited amount of "re-do's" with any community.
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...
 
At launch i was measuring played hours at Raptr (yes i know its not something that offers 100% accuracy but it sure shows a good trend) and it was in the top 5 places (600k+ hours/week) only behind WoW-LoL-Dota2-D3. This shows that many ppl interested in the first place about WS and many tried it, but the huge majority left soon after. Now its not even in the top 100...
 
...
 
I want to know if Carbine (or NCSoft) are happy with the current state of the game and especially with the population. Are you going to try make WS a game that will caters to many ppl or are you happy as it is? Is this game supposed to be a niche one? Will your future decisions be based in a target of a wider audience or you will be happy to maintain the current population? Are you going to (at least try) compete games like SWTOR-GW2-FFA-Rift etc or you have thrown a white towel already?
 ...
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			Thx for the respond Mark! I hope to give us a taste of your future plans. Just to know there at Carbine, we are ppl who care and love WS and while we point bad things or things we like to change or add, we hope this game became a real blast. We are with you as long as you support and make the game better!	
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			@vici see your point and while i personally dont think the game is ready for a bunch of free trials yet it wouldnt be shocking to see it happen.no the game wont be perfect but there are a couple things that need major love to be functional. 2 things come to mind. PvP: is this in a state that you can try to sell to people? and itemization, nothing to say here the horse has been beat to death with it. those are to MAJOR issues with the game, at least imo.	
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I have never thought this game was a niche game. I thought that it offered a different spin on something, which is cool to differentiate itself. I don't think the combat system was intended to be more challenging, but rather more fun. And it succeeds in an amazing way.
 
Yes, there was that one video where they humorously interjected "hardcore" all over the place for raids. Somehow that became the perception of the entire game, and I'm not really sure why. But this game isn't hardcore. It's just *fun*.
 
It has its issues. Population is a big deal. Queues aren't popping. Rewards aren't where they need to be. But there are good points. The fighting and combat is a blast. The dungeon design is a blast.
 
But I think Carbine *wants* to appeal to the masses and they are making changes to fix the things that didn't come off as well as the combat and dungeon design. Hopefully that will bring in more players. But this myth that they only wanted to appeal to players who wanted a "hardcore" game needs to die.	
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I have never thought this game was a niche game. I thought that it offered a different spin on something, which is cool to differentiate itself. I don't think the combat system was intended to be more challenging, but rather more fun. And it succeeds in an amazing way.
 
Yes, there was that one video where they humorously interjected "hardcore" all over the place for raids. Somehow that became the perception of the entire game, and I'm not really sure why. But this game isn't hardcore. It's just *fun*.
 
It has its issues. Population is a big deal. Queues aren't popping. Rewards aren't where they need to be. But there are good points. The fighting and combat is a blast. The dungeon design is a blast.
 
But I think Carbine *wants* to appeal to the masses and they are making changes to fix the things that didn't come off as well as the combat and dungeon design. Hopefully that will bring in more players. But this myth that they only wanted to appeal to players who wanted a "hardcore" game needs to die.
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But I think Carbine *wants* to appeal to the masses and they are making changes to fix the things that didn't come off as well as the combat and dungeon design. Hopefully that will bring in more players. But this myth that they only wanted to appeal to players who wanted a "hardcore" game needs to die.
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Challenging dungeons are great... as end-game content.  When you have to run progression discipline just to finish the level 20 dungeon and not even get enough currency to cover repairs that "#hardcore" stink is going to permeate long and strong.
 
Challenging content is fine when the players have some control over the amount of challenge they have to deal with.  WildStar requires far more concentration than other games I've played and it's persistent.  Stress breaks are few and far between.  This is not a recipe that appeals to the masses.
 
Now before you judge me, I'm raising these issues to point out that Carbine has an either-or decision.  They can keep the overall challenge and accept that they're only going to have niche appeal.  Or they can adjust things so that challenge seekers need to work a little to find it and a broader segment of players gets less frustrated.
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WildStar requires far more concentration than other games I've played and it's persistent.  Stress breaks are few and far between.  This is not a recipe that appeals to the masses.
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Calling this out specifically because I've been thinking about why I don't enjoy adventures that much- and it's this: they are the "casual" instances in terms of challenge, but they are more unforgiving than dungeons. You can't get up and get a drink, answer the door, or put your child back in bed. Because if anyone has to take a break, you lose the adventure. If people DC, you lose the adventure. If someone messes up, you lose the adventure. They are actually more stressful than dungeons, requiring more concentration with fewer breaks, even though they are easier.
 
When I got my new warrior to 50, I blasted through the adventures as quickly as possible to get to dungeons. This probably isn't what Carbine intends. The adventures can be a lot of fun, but the "one shot" nature of them where failure means a bunch of wasted time is not a good coupling with the "casual" content they are intended to be.
 
WotW is kind of the exception here, but I can't put my finger on why. It's never struck me as stressful the way the others have.
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I don't think "overall challenge" is the correct statement. Yes, dungeons are challenging. Yes, raids are challenging. Overall, Wildstar is NOT challenging. Some parts of it are.
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I think that would have been removing the timer as the metric by which medals are judged. 
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Talking about adventures- they aren't judged by timers.
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When you say things are "not challenging" you need to qualify that.  They're not challenging for you.
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Really?  Is that a new change or was I just misunderstanding my old masters?  I was pretty sure that I was consistently told to hurry along on my adventure runs and told exactly what choices to make so that we could speed through them for medals.
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I think you misunderstood. People rushed you along because they just wanted to get them over with.
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That astounds me.  To this day, I still think the adventures are more fun.  You get to mix and match so much, especially in a premade when you get to say, "Mmm, let's do it this way this time."  Blitzing through and spam running the same path was painful.  I was told (at least I recall being told) that we needed to do it for the gold medal.
 
So what are they judging those medals on and why couldn't they do that on dungeons?  If anything, I've had the opposite problem.  I thought that the entire reason I was being rushed through dungeons and adventures was because people wanted gold and you couldn't even stop to yell at your dogs to knock something off.  Are the dungeons at least being checked by overall timer?  I was pretty certain about that considering the attunement anger out there a few months back.
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Dungeons are on a timer to get silver/gold. I *like* the timers in the dungeons. They add a little bit of extra kick into the encounter and push things along efficiently. If you don't get it, no big deal. But they are fun to shoot for. They were more painful when they were required for attunment because people would just quit if the timer wasn't met.
 
Adventures have various measures for silver/gold, but none of them are time based. For example, in seige the generator has to stay at 100% (or above 96%?) for gold. It doesn't matter what else happens, who dies, or how long it takes, as long as your protect the generator.
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Hell, for all I know, I'm not the only person in the game since launch that was told I needed to clear adventures in a certain amount of time to medal.  I actually feel better about doing adventures knowing that what they're judging me on is how well I do things, not how much I can avoid in the game and ignore IRL.
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I think you misunderstood. People rushed you along because they just wanted to get them over with.
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Well also to add to this at various points in time different aspects of the adventures were buggy enough to halt or hamper progression depending on a mechanic or choice. So the cookie cutter paths grew out of those as a result for being "safe". I remember Crimelords for example being a pain early on because Protostar path would bug out and couldn't finish the adventure and Tempest Refuge we were all told not to use snipers because they'd bug and your progress would be completely halted. While to my knowledge most if not all of this was fixed, the lasting effects and a significant portion of guides people watch still echo the impact on people to play it safe.
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			Regarding "one true path" in adventures - Whether there was one true path or not wouldn't have mattered in the end, because MMORPG players would end up doing what they always do: Finding the perceived "most optimal" path and it becoming the norm. In Crimelords the Redmoon/Rocktown Rollers path is the most time efficient, just as in Malgrave the best way to get Gold is a certain path.  	
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			We have precedent in EVE Online. WS will be fine.	
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Is it Niche when you have to wait more than 40minutes to play a bg?
 
Is it Niche when you can not get a rating because there are NO RATED BGs playing?
 
if this is niche, then this has been a great success. If this is not niche, and these times are unacceptable, then this game is dead and will not get a bigger player base, as you can't even get the gear or rating you want because you can not even TRY TO via PLAYING.
 
The game is dead. About time you fanboys just face the facts and talk about something more productive, rather than trying to flog a dead game. Sheesh
 
moderator edit: language 
			
				
	Edited November 19, 2014 by Chillia	
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Is it Niche when you have to wait more than 40minutes to play a bg?
 
Is it Niche when you can not get a rating because there are NO RATED BGs playing?
 
if this is niche, then this has been a great success. If this is not niche, and these times are unacceptable, then this game is dead and will not get a bigger player base, as you can't even get the gear or rating you want because you can not even TRY TO via PLAYING.
 
The game is dead. About time you fanboys just face the facts and talk about something more productive, rather than trying to flog a dead game. Sheesh
 
moderator edit: language 
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Is it Niche when you have to wait more than 40minutes to play a bg? Google: define: niche
 
Is it Niche when you can not get a rating because there are NO RATED BGs playing? I politefully call shenanigans, makes moderators happier if I put it that way. (I saw the edit attempt there mod, no idea why though)
 
if this is niche, then this has been a great success. If this is not niche, and these times are unacceptable, then this game is dead and will not get a bigger player base because this game is stuck with the population that it has now and will in no way ever change payment model, provide incentives or just get an influx of players over a promotion, as you can't even get the gear or rating you want because you can not even TRY TO via PLAYING. Yeah, perhaps queue outside of the hours of 0:00-06:00 GMT0 and you might have a match or two. Every time our least active members of our guild log in, they're in BGs and nobody is whining about how they can't get ratings. WTF are you doing?
 
The game is dead. About time you fanboys anyone who disagrees with you is a fanboy and anyone who agrees with you is einstein, love the ditch you dig for yourself just face the facts and talk about something more productive, rather than trying to flog a dead game. Sheesh I could insert almost any game into your comment and reword it just slightly so that anything I want to do, but are doing wrong and therefore can't do not being done is indicative of the game's imminent death. You're so smart. Also, get a dictionary.
 
moderator edit: language 
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Is it Niche when you have to wait more than 40minutes to play a bg?
 
Is it Niche when you can not get a rating because there are NO RATED BGs playing? 
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“We're like licorice. Not everybody likes licorice, but the people who like licorice really like licorice.”
 
Jerry Garcia.	
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