Report 345

Report #345
Skillset: Tracking Skill: Pit/Spikepit/Snakepit
 Org: Ur'Guard Status: Rejected Dec 2010
Furies' Decision:
We do not find this to be necessary
Problem: Pits are too impacting in combat. Climb rocks was a nice thought, but
at 6 seconds (4s escape, 2s bal loss) after initial loss from hitting pits it's
largely useless to avoid instakills or uncounterable beating, particularly when
you can just spam conceal to reconceal the moment they escape (giving you a 2s
window to do so before they can move).
Solution #1: Remove spike/snakepits. Allow pits to function as a mini timeout
 for a player, so if someone hits a pit they fall into the pit
 same as before, except that they cannot hit OR be hit while in a
 pit- climb out time ~4s.
Solution #2: Remove pits so other traps can be buffed as most of the others
 are ineffectual
Solution #3: Limit pits to have only the tracker be able to attack a person in
 their pit
Player Comments:
---[Geb on 10/20 @ 00:57 writes]:
How about they be changed so that only the person who lays pits can hit the
person in the pit (snake pit and spike pit included)? That way the pits lose
their group gank quality, but still remain viable for a tracker to use in 1 on 1
combat.
---[Nydekion on 10/24 @ 07:55 writes]:
Skill such as crucify come to mind as similar in this aspect requiring a bit
less setup but a similar state of being unable to avoid instakills or
uncounterable beating. Certainly not the only skill that opens up such
opportunities, but is an appropriate counterexample for the listed problem.
Basic idea is that pits certainly aren't alone in this category.
---[Sahmiam on 10/30 @ 06:16 writes]:
I wouldn't consider pits and crucify to be in the same category: sure they have
similarities, but pits can be extended across an entire area where crucify
requires one to be in the same room. Additionally, crucify requires power while
pits doesn't (comm costs, however!).
---[Nydekion on 11/1 @ 00:16 writes]:
Sure, I'm not saying both skills are exactly the same (they're not, obviously),
the problem, however, attempts to address pits where instakills or unavoidable
beatings are concerned in which case crucify would qualify as a comparable skill
in the particular situation.
---[Sahmiam on 11/6 @ 20:02 writes]:
I still think you're stretching it quite a bit, so much so, that you'd have to
throw in quite a few other skills. Aeon, choke, grapple spam, barrier, carcer,
blocking, walls, etc. Anything that can prevent one from leaving the room,
essentially. I think that's too far. Crucify isn't triggered by forced movement
or even movement. Pits are. Pits reactivly keep a person stationary by
triggering when one attempts to leave the room. Crucify proactivly keeps a
person in the room, but requires the necromancer to activate it at the ideal
time. Let's not forget that pits work off an enemy list while crucify requires
targeting. I'm merely saying that it's a slippery slope if you wish to blur the
definite lines to include them in the same category.
---[Ixion on 12/8 @ 07:26 writes]:
I like Geb's idea- added as solution 3
---[Raeri on 12/11 @ 10:29 writes]:
A question: What would Trackers have (that is useful) if pits are removed like
this? Regarding Solution 1, what's stopping someone from just sitting in there
and not climbing out? I think regardless of what happens to pits though, the
other traps should be buffed so they are viable choices, other than wastes of
commodities - are they even reuseable like pits are?
---[Talan on 12/17 @ 05:39 writes]:
I like solution 3 here. Curious as to what these planned buffs mentioned in
solution 2 are.
---[Nydekion on 12/20 @ 15:33 writes]:
In essence, this report calls for an unnecessary change. It has been proven time
and again that while pits are powerful, it certainly does not create an
unescapeable situation with the advent of climb rocks as the victim within the
pit is free to act defensively within the pit without interrupting the climb. In
addition, any elevation change easily avoids pits as I, myself, have been able
to escape on more occasions than not while fighting against trackers. The
argument of it being too significant against instakills is essentially moot as
in a situation with just a tracker and a pit, the victim will always have a
chance to climb out and hinder any decapitation attempt before it completes
(even with a snake pit trap or spiked pit trap). In group combat, pits will only
ever hit a single person, meaning any allies could hinder the timed instakill
with ease.
---[Sahmiam on 12/21 @ 20:50 writes]:
To say pits only ever hit a single person in group combat is correct, but
misleading. In group versus group within the same room, pits are not a problem.
Pits become a problem because they can very easily (too easily) turn the combat
situation from group versus group to group versus one, without the one being
able to escape except for changing elevation. They trigger on evade, tumble,
somersault, pogo stick, gust, normal walking, leap, barrelroll, airpike, etc.
Solution 3 is my first pick, followed by solution 2 depending on what Ixion has
in mind.
---[Raeri on 12/22 @ 07:16 writes]:
What if you just change what types of movement trip pits, like what report 504
is doing with RainbowClouds?
---[Nydekion on 12/22 @ 19:21 writes]:
If you're talking about a single person being pushed into a group then you have
many skills that offer that outside of pits including, but not limited to,
perfect fifth, barrier, blocking, waylay into a truss, crucify, web, knocking
the person off equilibrium/balance, engage, carcer, enthall, etc the list
becomes rather extensive. A number of these will prevent tumbles/pogos from
starting as well and will limit movement for the same amount of time (if not
more) than climbing out of a pit. Also, Raeri, the difference between
Rainbowclouds and pits are that the clouds are cast once for a demesne and will
passively follow the mage wherever they move, however, pits have to be placed in
each room in each direction at a 4.0 sec balance loss per pit to be effective
(significant commodity cost nonwithstanding), it's a significantly slower
process and thus should carry some additional benefit.
---[Fillin on 12/26 @ 16:29 writes]:
Nydekion is very wrong on this. Pits both stop you from leaving and from doing
anything useful while you're in them, and take a whopping 6 seconds to break,
which can be cancelled and -completely reset- by just about any hindering in the
book (a single web in the last few seconds of climbing out will keep someone
helpless in the pit for 7-8 seconds longer), unless you spend 3p for climb rocks
(which will still take you 6 seconds to climb out and does nothing to stop you
from tripping the same exact pit which can be immediately concealed once you
walk out). My preference is solution 2, but if solution 1 or 3 is taken, make
sure to include a 'phase' effect on pits so that the pitted person's passives
will freeze while in the pit. Otherwise, it will possible to use friendly pits
as protection for mages and bards.
---[Inagin on 12/29 @ 09:33 writes]:
Solutions #1 and #3 are useless. I strongly disagree with any changes to pits
unless Tracking gets seriously reviewed. Most of the other traps serve little
purpose and the reports on fixing the hunting companion have done nothing. If
this was an ability that one organization possessed, I can see why there would
be complaints. However, like PerfectFifth, it is shared by every organization
and like Nydekion states, many of those abilities he listed can hinder and
prevent you from leaving or doing anything useful.
---[Inagin on 12/29 @ 09:36 writes]:
Oh. To make it my previous comment more clear: I am not so subtly implying that
I would agree with Solution #2 (if the admin are willing to give Tracking a
serious look).
---[Sahmiam on 12/29 @ 23:08 writes]:
I support solution 3. It does not make pits useless, and in response to Nydekion
and Inagin: there are similarities, yes, but this problem focuses on specifics
not shared so generally. Blurring the lines makes it seem like the other things
fit in too, but I think the problem clearly points to pits, not other skills
that, with sweeping generalizations, are similar.
---[Raeri on 12/30 @ 08:08 writes]:
I get the feeling Solutions 1 and 3 as listed could be abused and turn out be
even more obnoxious than the current iteration of pits. Solution 2, so long as
the other traps get reviewed *before* pits are actually taken out.
---[Sahmiam on 12/31 @ 20:52 writes]:
Raeri, solution 1 is similar to maze while solution 3 only changes who can hit
the person in the pit. Both exist in the game and are preferable to the current
pits.