148615-so-dominion-and-exiles-page-6

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Quite honestly, I tried writing a response to your more recent posts and I can't take it seriously enough to bother. There's just too much in them that you've said that's factually wrong or that relies on reasoning that's just silly. 
Maybe I'd feel differently about it if it hadn't come right after that fun semantic game where you declare repeatedly that an abuser and a victim can't get along because each side wants their own way and neither is willing to compromise. But that's such a deliberate use of semantics to say something technically true but conceptually obscene that it's really impossible for me to entertain the idea that a reasonable discussion is possible here.
 
Done feeding the trolls here.
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Summarizing an event where one side is trying actively to subjugate and control the other as "Well...both sides wanted to have their way, you see!" is not only fairly obvious (I want to steal your wallet; you don't want me to steal your wallet; we both want the result to be the one we want it to be), which isn't a crime, but you are also painting it neutrally by ignoring the morality and by the phrasing: It wasn't a matter of justice, ethics or morals. It was a matter of two sides trying to have their way out of their own will.
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But again, where is the persecution? Prejudice, bias, income inequality... these are all negative things, but we have them in all of our societies, they certainly aren't desirable, but they are far from "persecution".
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Chronicle houses weren't a religion persay (more of something part of their culture before the Eldan) but the Ancestral Decree did result in them being torn down and replaced by Vigilant Churches. It may not be religious persecution but I do see it as a sort of cultural persecution (Brightland's Rebellion, Part 2, first paragraph). I like to think that they've learned their lesson about this since as we've all seen, the other races are free to practice their own belief systems. And now I'm trying to find the particular lore thread where a dev directly commented that it's okay to not believe in their religion as long as you don't openly condemn it.
 
The Chronicle houses were indeed not religious per-see, but were houses of history / social ritual. I believe the Dev mentioning the religious freedom was CRB HernCO in one of his reddit lore drops (I could be mistaken though). However, that no one is forced to adhere to the Vigilant Church is self evident in the Draken blood rituals in Deradune when the Luminai Governor visits and approves. I don't see replacing the chronicle houses with Vigilant Churches as necessarily religious persecution, because people weren't actually persecuted; the Dominion simply adopted an official state religion and replaced it's previous institutions that functioned as churches, with actual churches... and since Chronicle Houses weren't actually religious institutions, no one's religion was affected by their replacement with V.C.'s. Folks still kept their records and enjoyed their old cultural activities along with being involved in the Vigilant Church if they so chose (which many Chua and Draken do not).
 
I actually think the Dominion started the violence first. The Decree didn't explicitly state to treat the Lowborn like dirt, but the Highborn did feel the need to get violent over it.
That being said, the Dominion did have the right to pursue the Exiles because they decided to start a war over this. The Exiles stole warships and continued fighting back. Even if the Dominion left them alone after the initial rebellion, I don't think they would have been satisfied unless they took over the Empire.
 
I got the impression that the protesters turned violent first, then the Dominion started cracking down on them. I could be mistaken, but that's what I got from this passage on the official timeline: 
 
"What started out as wage protests rapidly metastasized into bloody skirmishes. As tensions escalated, Dominion military leaders ordered brutal crackdowns against all who opposed the new order."
 
At least the "Bloody Skirmishes" part makes me think the protesters got violent, and the Dominion cracked down in response to that. Then again it wouldn't be the first time a lore entry was inconsistent with other sources, or perhaps used confusing wording.
 
Again, I don't at all disagree that the Dominion, by our standards, was in the wrong here. But I also do think the protesters were wrong to not use non-violent means of civil disobedience.
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Your post makes no sense. At all.
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The Chronicle houses were indeed not religious per-see, but were houses of history / social ritual. I believe the Dev mentioning the religious freedom was CRB HernCO in one of his reddit lore drops (I could be mistaken though). However, that no one is forced to adhere to the Vigilant Church is self evident in the Draken blood rituals in Deradune when the Luminai Governor visits and approves. I don't see replacing the chronicle houses with Vigilant Churches as necessarily religious persecution, because people weren't actually persecuted; the Dominion simply adopted an official state religion and replaced it's previous institutions that functioned as churches, with actual churches. 
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Chronicle houses weren't a religion persay (more of something part of their culture before the Eldan) but the Ancestral Decree did result in them being torn down and replaced by Vigilant Churches. It may not be religious persecution but I do see it as a sort of cultural persecution (Brightland's Rebellion, Part 2, first paragraph). I like to think that they've learned their lesson about this since as we've all seen, the other races are free to practice their own belief systems. And now I'm trying to find the particular lore thread where a dev directly commented that it's okay to not believe in their religion as long as you don't openly condemn it.
 
The Chronicle houses were indeed not religious per-see, but were houses of history / social ritual. I believe the Dev mentioning the religious freedom was CRB HernCO in one of his reddit lore drops (I could be mistaken though). However, that no one is forced to adhere to the Vigilant Church is self evident in the Draken blood rituals in Deradune when the Luminai Governor visits and approves. I don't see replacing the chronicle houses with Vigilant Churches as necessarily religious persecution, because people weren't actually persecuted; the Dominion simply adopted an official state religion and replaced it's previous institutions that functioned as churches, with actual churches... and since Chronicle Houses weren't actually religious institutions, no one's religion was affected by their replacement with V.C.'s. Folks still kept their records and enjoyed their old cultural activities along with being involved in the Vigilant Church if they so chose (which many Chua and Draken do not).
 
I actually think the Dominion started the violence first. The Decree didn't explicitly state to treat the Lowborn like dirt, but the Highborn did feel the need to get violent over it.
That being said, the Dominion did have the right to pursue the Exiles because they decided to start a war over this. The Exiles stole warships and continued fighting back. Even if the Dominion left them alone after the initial rebellion, I don't think they would have been satisfied unless they took over the Empire.
 
I got the impression that the protesters turned violent first, then the Dominion started cracking down on them. I could be mistaken, but that's what I got from this passage on the official timeline: 
 
"What started out as wage protests rapidly metastasized into bloody skirmishes. As tensions escalated, Dominion military leaders ordered brutal crackdowns against all who opposed the new order."
 
At least the "Bloody Skirmishes" part makes me think the protesters got violent, and the Dominion cracked down in response to that. Then again it wouldn't be the first time a lore entry was inconsistent with other sources, or perhaps used confusing wording.
 
Again, I don't at all disagree that the Dominion, by our standards, was in the wrong here. But I also do think the protesters were wrong to not use non-violent means of civil disobedience.
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I also acknowledge that the protests did get violent, but they don't say which side started the violence first. Just as easily as the protesters could have turned to violence, the military could have also tried to resolve the situation violently as well before that became the official response. I like to think that the protesters would have to react violently first, but this isn't always the case.
 
I actually wish they would elaborate on the events leading up to the Rebellion, because I feel it's tough to make a call on who was violent first during the protests. I can easily believe things one way or the other, it's just that one sentence makes me slightly in more favor of the Dominion starting it.
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It's easy to forget that even the low born (lesser class) was extremely well off in the Dominion, with education and healthcare for all through the VC, and focusing just on the wage / labour / social inequality. There are pro's and cons to this just as there are for all things. Anyway, if nothing it's an interesting historical context for the game.
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The Domesticated Veggies are also well-taken care of with most of the races that consume them, but they are still enslaved and harvested despite this treatment. Maybe the sentient, Domesticated Veggies came together and decided that this behavior was okay. I would accept that conclusion, but it would still leave a bad taste in my mouth. Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that well-treated slaves are still slaves. I don't think the Lowborn during this period were literal slaves, but it's obvious that they were treated poorly. So I don't blame them for fighting against social injustice. 
 
Absolutely! But we also see social inequity in other groups and factions. For example, the gender inequity in Aurin society, and the militant hierarchy of the Granok mercs. The veggies are really interesting, and their treatment is definitely bad. The Aurin seem to be the worst perpetrators (though there seemed to be some around a farmstead in Auroria, though these were also the same folks who hunted people for sport....) and my personal guess was that the Aurin Queen uses her link to the weave to make the Veggies amenable to being exploited (though on multiple occasions they clearly don't want to be eaten, like the Exile tutorial).
 
I would like to note that while I think the Lowborn were treated poorly in the past, I also think they have gotten better about it since then. They still have upward mobility obstacles, but I get a very clear message that mistreating them is not okay in the game itself. Some Highborn might not have nice things to say about them, but they will be punished the moment they put words into actions.
 
Indeed. During the Hycrest biotrror Arc, the Luminai governor is seriously concerned about the welfare of the lowborn. Once you develop the cure and apply it to the highborn in the city, you find the sick Low born and bring them to the church to be cured. You also are ordered to go and administer it to the Lowborn still out on the farms.. though sadly you're a little late in some instances... The Governor is genuinely distressed at the losses... 
 
And of course, while some highborn (e.g. Malvolio) are clearly prejudiced against the low born (and some low born against the high born) there are many instances of cooperation, mutual respect, and .... well... boinking (just ask Artemis Zin and Toric Antevian ;) )
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Absolutely! But we also see social inequity in other groups and factions. For example, the gender inequity in Aurin society, and the militant hierarchy of the Granok mercs. The veggies are really interesting, and their treatment is definitely bad. The Aurin seem to be the worst perpetrators (though there seemed to be some around a farmstead in Auroria, though these were also the same folks who hunted people for sport....) and my personal guess was that the Aurin Queen uses her link to the weave to make the Veggies amenable to being exploited (though on multiple occasions they clearly don't want to be eaten, like the Exile tutorial).
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Not nice enough. Based on how long you've both been members, you've been playing over a year longer than Captainspire (correct me if I'm wrong). They haven't had as much time to ponder all this lore like you have. I feel like you are not being considerate of that and talking down to them (especially in the part I quoted). I agree with most of your points, but not the tone you are using. This is probably a terrible example since you disagree with Nazryn's opinions, but they managed to disagree with one of the things Captainspire said and managed to elaborate without attacking them.
 
Since you edited your post to be nicer, I assume this wasn't your intention but it is still coming out that way.
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-"The Dominion takes care of its citizens, from the wealthiest highborn Cassian to the hardest-working lowborn. If people cannot provide for themselves, the Vigiliant Church is there to provide charity and the government itself might provide employment in public service or the military.
 
That doesn't mean the biases, prejudices, and even corruption don't work their way into the system. These are still laws carried out by fallible beings."
 
https://www.reddit.com/r/WildStar/comments/3ndihm/lore_questions_hit_me/cvnpaq3
 
-"at the start of the war, the Cassian rebels (not yet Exiles) plowed a furrow of mega-death through the Cassian navy's fleet, killing thousands and almost causing them to lose control of the empire from lack of ships.
 
What Exiles might see as mean, many in the Dominion see as forceful and necessary, albeit sometimes regrettable."
 
 
-"On Cassus, where the seat of government for the Dominion rested for centuries, the lowborn were very well off, and the split was more about class and associations. There are/were definitely prejudices from both groups about the other, some fair, some not.
 
On Nexus, far from the heart of the Empire, some highborn are abusing their remote power and treating lowborn worse than they would on Cassus. Latent cultural assumptions about "those people" (again, on both sides of the divide) have grown stronger and more ingrained. It's not hard to imagine a revolt or two coming down the line, at least on Nexus, if some highborn continue to behave as they do. Still, even on Nexus for the most part lowborn Cassians are loyal to the Dominion and proud to serve. They may not have Eldan blood, but they're still part of a people who were chosen to rule the galaxy.
 
The best historical analog I can think of - and it's largely based on historical fiction - is the Royal Navy during the Napoleonic Wars as depicted by authors like O'Brian and Forester. The class divide is there, but everyone's still stuck together and need to rely on each other to survive. Those who can't get along are probably eventually doomed."
 
https://www.reddit.com/r/WildStar/comments/3o8zqn/lore_questions_hit_me_again/
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The Domesticated Veggies are also well-taken care of with most of the races that consume them, but they are still enslaved and harvested despite this treatment. Maybe the sentient, Domesticated Veggies came together and decided that this behavior was okay. I would accept that conclusion, but it would still leave a bad taste in my mouth. Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that well-treated slaves are still slaves. I don't think the Lowborn during this period were literal slaves, but it's obvious that they were treated poorly. So I don't blame them for fighting against social injustice. 
 
Absolutely! But we also see social inequity in other groups and factions. For example, the gender inequity in Aurin society, and the militant hierarchy of the Granok mercs. The veggies are really interesting, and their treatment is definitely bad. The Aurin seem to be the worst perpetrators (though there seemed to be some around a farmstead in Auroria, though these were also the same folks who hunted people for sport....) and my personal guess was that the Aurin Queen uses her link to the weave to make the Veggies amenable to being exploited (though on multiple occasions they clearly don't want to be eaten, like the Exile tutorial).
 
I would like to note that while I think the Lowborn were treated poorly in the past, I also think they have gotten better about it since then. They still have upward mobility obstacles, but I get a very clear message that mistreating them is not okay in the game itself. Some Highborn might not have nice things to say about them, but they will be punished the moment they put words into actions.
 
Indeed. During the Hycrest biotrror Arc, the Luminai governor is seriously concerned about the welfare of the lowborn. Once you develop the cure and apply it to the highborn in the city, you find the sick Low born and bring them to the church to be cured. You also are ordered to go and administer it to the Lowborn still out on the farms.. though sadly you're a little late in some instances... The Governor is genuinely distressed at the losses... 
 
And of course, while some highborn (e.g. Malvolio) are clearly prejudiced against the low born (and some low born against the high born) there are many instances of cooperation, mutual respect, and .... well... boinking (just ask Artemis Zin and Toric Antevian ;) )
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 I'm not sure the treatment of the highborn is better now.  It seems to be a strong possibility that it may be worse now that we're on nexus.  While the beginning of the rebellion certainly could have been one large oppressive state victimizing the lowborn, (Which we see from the Exiles POV) alternatively, it could have just as easily played by rabble-rousers inciting the lowborn to attack innocent wealthier citizens in an "us or them" mentality.  
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If I remember correctly from Closed beta the Luminai girl was actually extremely naive and never let outside until now due to the Imperial decree of Nexus being the new capital world of Dominion. The reason for her shut in was because the Luminai were considered sacred next to the Emperor and thus were rarely seen outside of the public. Now that Nexus is found, the Luminai are now starting stepping out to regain their legacy and taking hold of key important political positions from strongest inheritence to lowest. again all memories from CB so the information for me is way outdated.
 
The Luminai have always held major political power (the Great Luminai houses). It's like Game of Thrones. The nobility live in their fancy castles while the merchants, tradespeople, businesspeople, and laborers dont. There was never a time in the Dominion's history after Dominus when the Luminai didn't hold power, and every emperor must have Eldan blood (Emperor is the only office a low born Cassian can't attain in the Dominion).
 
Aurin are not gender inequal, they have simply been Matriarchal since their evolution on Arboria. The militant hierarchy of the Granoks are simply because Granoks ARE mercenaries. After the war on Gnox, Durek and his group of rebels formed a company of mercenaries and lived their lives as mercenaries until they were newly reformed as FCON or Free Companies of Nexus, the official military of the Exiles. Since most of the brawns of Exiles were Granoks, they simply kept their rank in their transfer from mercenaries to soldiers however FCON still retains its mercenary business so long as its not Dominion asking. The real hierarchy of the Granoks are yet to be revealed as of yet.
 
By deffinition, social systems that give preference to one gender over another (patriarchal / matriarchal) are inequitable by gender, unlike egalitarian systems that do not disenfranchise one gender. And that the Granok are mercenaries doesn't excuse their poor social equity anymore than saying the Dominion's an empire excuses theirs. And Yes, we see the "real" heirarchy of the granok (their society is graded by rank). What the social nature of the Granok that aren't part of the Exiles is is immaterial to this particular discussion, as would be the social structure of the Aurin still on Arboria.
 
As for Veggies -
No Queen nor Matria abuse their weave connection to exploit any life.. However there are numerous romance novels  and "Treerotica" of Matrias's forbidden love with their Wisdom trees. Don't ask.
 
And yet the Matria frequently use the weave to exploit life... The Joke about Veggie love is the same as Vampire romance novels; predators of sapient, thinking, feeling creatures loving their thinking, feeling, self aware, and intelligent prey...
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the empire proper you are undoubtedly correct to think that social equity has improved (which it has under Emperor Myrcalus and the new High Priestess Cazalon
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Aurin are not gender inequal, they have simply been Matriarchal since their evolution on Arboria. 
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@Nazrek since the quote is bonkers for me
 
A) Yet there is no gender inequality in the Aurin community, every male can be chosen as a consort and even be an "unofficial" lover as Matrias are not allowed to marry, while the positions below Matria can be held by both genders. Again you miss the point on Granoks.. They are a group of Granoks NOT the entire race of Granoks (who are happily living in seclusion on Gnox) that are living as mercenaries as well as now serving as the military arms of the Exiles. There is no real hierarchy unless you count the Military chain of command which is obviously needed in any military force or mercenary corporations.
 
 B) Given an example of a Matria who has abused her weave connection then.
 
C) I have to revisit that part again, but again that was when I played that event and most likely things have changed.
 
 
@Spider Bro Jenkins
Arwick is the consort to the Queen, he is the royal advisor and second in command who was quite ignored by the Queen before and during fall of Arboria. Consorts can be male or female since Queens and Matrias cannot legally have a husband.
			
				
	Edited January 15, 2016 by Peacekitty	
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			Dominion is instantly  better because of female Mechari.
			
				
	Edited January 15, 2016 by Mental Surge	
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This topic... *grabs popcorn* :D
 
While I'm more of a Dominion fan, I also like the lore Carbine did on the Exiles, albeit some of them seem to have major holes in them (especially Aurin joining the Exiles for the Humans were at the wrong place at the wrong time), yet I do wonder why a Queen isn't allowed to have a husband? Or do Aurin work with a voting system that "the most huggiest" of them all gets the title of Queen?	
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@Nazrek since the quote is bonkers for me
 
A) Yet there is no gender inequality in the Aurin community, every male can be chosen as a consort and even be an "unofficial" lover as Matrias are not allowed to marry, while the positions below Matria can be held by both genders.
 
Yea, that;s called gender inequity... Males cant be Matrias (aka leaders), and they are used as sexual objects for the leaders (Matria get to CHOSE their consorts, it's not necessarily mutual, and the males can't complain, because unkindness is a punishible crime in Aurin culture). That only the Luminai can be emperors of the Dominion is social inequity. Likewise that only females can be Matria is gender inequity.
 
 
Again you miss the point on Granoks.. They are a group of Granoks NOT the entire race of Granoks (who are happily living in seclusion on Gnox) that are living as mercenaries as well as now serving as the military arms of the Exiles. There is no real hierarchy unless you count the Military chain of command which is obviously needed in any military force or mercenary corporations.
 
And? ALL exiles are only a group of their respective species. Exile humans are a small group of Cassians, Granok Mercs are a small subset of Granok, Exile Aurin are a subset of Aurin (others still live on Arboria) and Morsesh are whats left of the species Victor himself destroyed... We are talking about the EXILEs, so only the social structure of the Exile groups is important in this context. The Granok don't "NEED" to be mercenaries, thats how they have lived for hundreds of years (~ 500 IIRC)... and so became their society. The Granok in the Exiles have no connection to the Granok of Gnox, they were ritually and literally banished and shunned from greater Granok society permenantly.
 
 B) Given an example of a Matria who has abused her weave connection then.
 
I can think of 3 off the top of my head 1) the Sandthorn Matria in Malgrave  2) the Matria destroying endangered species in Deradune to make a forest in a desert 3) the Matria who burns the helpless farming villages in Auroria... Each of those Matria abused the weave... I know there were others as well, but I can't remember them just from the top of my head. You would know this if you played through the Dominion quest lines...
 
C) I have to revisit that part again, but again that was when I played that event and most likely things have changed.
 
 
@Spider Bro Jenkins
Arwick is the consort to the Queen, he is the royal advisor and second in command who was quite ignored by the Queen before and during fall of Arboria. Consorts can be male or female since Queens and Matrias cannot legally have a husband.
 
Arwick is an advisor, who is 1) always ignored and 2) has no political power. He opposed aiding the Exiles, was ignored. He suggested fighting the dominion, was ignored. He wanted to kill the Mordesh for harvesting the forrests primal life, was ignored.... etc etc etc... he kinda just kill stuff when the Queen is in trouble and thats the extent of his effective role.
 
 
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This topic... *grabs popcorn* :D
 
While I'm more of a Dominion fan, I also like the lore Carbine did on the Exiles, albeit some of them seem to have major holes in them (especially Aurin joining the Exiles for the Humans were at the wrong place at the wrong time), yet I do wonder why a Queen isn't allowed to have a husband? Or do Aurin work with a voting system that "the most huggiest" of them all gets the title of Queen?
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This topic... *grabs popcorn*  :D
 
While I'm more of a Dominion fan, I also like the lore Carbine did on the Exiles, albeit some of them seem to have major holes in them (especially Aurin joining the Exiles for the Humans were at the wrong place at the wrong time), yet I do wonder why a Queen isn't allowed to have a husband? Or do Aurin work with a voting system that "the most huggiest" of them all gets the title of Queen?
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First example is available to both Dominion and Exiles, though I can't remember if anyone in that group is a Matria (you kill her at the end of the questline on top of the floating platform in the middle of the canyon). It's not unreasonable to think that there could be one because there are elementals working with them. Second example also can't confirm the presence of a Matria. They are actually using a Terraformer which changes the environment by breaking down (killing) the current environment to build the new one (Indeed, and the matria (found in the NW corner of the forrest as a rare mob) is using her powers to help in it). Could you also elaborate on the third example? All I remember was the plague and those Aurin near the Buzzbing area. (its to the West of Fort Glory past the DREDPLEX. There is a burning village full of FCON raiders. In the Dominion questline to stop FCON, the final quest is to stop the Matria who was using the FCON forces to help her steal [some item she took from the village or DREDPLEX IIRC].  you have to fight through a holdout of Granok before you get to her finally, and defeating her ends the questline)
 
I actually think (can't confirm) that he was picked for all those talents to become the First Consort. Sure he's also in a relationship, but I think he's more than a boytoy to the Queen. His opinions were't taken into consideration for pretty much all the things that lead to the Ravaging of Arboria though, but I think he is still fairly powerful in Aurin society. There are Aurin in-game who pretty much agree with him (at least the part about leaving Arboria).
 
I don't deny he was obviously picked for those talents, but his title is based on an Aurin culture of male sexual exploitation. Language is an important part of culture ,and it can tell us alot about a culture's values. I'm not vilifying the Aurin for their culture; I'm merely showing that those who vilify the Dominion for it's social inequity are ignoring the gender and social inequity in their favourite factions.
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