Kin (HBO's Podcast)/Transcript

The following is the full transcript of "Kin", the sixth episode of HBO's The Last of Us Podcast.
== Transcript ==
[Audio from TV show:] Joel: I saw a man kill his own brother to save her, while I just watched. And today, I thought that dog was gonna tear her apart because it smelled something on her. And all I did was stand there. I couldn't... move. I couldn't think of anything, except, just... I was so afraid. [/End Audio from TV show]
Troy: Welcome back. This is HBO's podcast for The Last of Us. I'm your host, Troy Baker, and I'm joined, as always, -by showrunners, Craig Mazin...
Craig: Hello.
Troy: ...and Neil Druckmann.
Neil: Hey, Troy. 
Troy: And today, we'll be talking through episode six, titled "Kin." Just a brief set up, we're now three months after the last episode. It's cold. The landscape is different. We've left behind the crumbling buildings of the city, and we've traded them, now, for the stark... desolation of the wilderness. Let's talk about it. 
Craig: Well, we first wanted to remind people, even though it's only been a week, about how things ended between Henry and Sam. When you end an episode with a tragedy, the way episode five ends, the most important thing is that you let the audience know that you're aware of it and you're going to honor it. It was important for us to say, "We're remembering this." And also, a lot of time has now passed. It was important to give the audience an understanding that Joel and Ellie have been going for a while. And so, they are not still in direct mourning over what happened. There isn't this immediate grief, although, of course, we will see that grief burble back up soon. 
Troy: We've gone from Boston to Kansas City. Geographically, now, where are we in the world? 
Craig: Wyoming. But where in Wyoming they are, is still something they're trying to figure out.
Neil: Not a small place.
Craig: No. 
Neil: This is kind of similar in the game. Like, they knew they were getting close, but they didn't know exactly where they were. 
Troy: And this is where we get to meet some new characters, the inimitable Graham Greene and also his wife, played by Elaine Miles. And Graham's character gives us some great advice.
[Audio from TV show:] Marlon: Anywhere people used to be, you can't go there no more.
Joel: So, you haven't heard the name Tommy?
Marlon: Nope.
Ellie: What about the Fireflies?
Florence: We get those in the summer.
Ellie: Not the bugs, the people.
Florence: There are firefly people?
Joel: You got any advice on the best way west?
Marlon: Yeah... go east. But you never go past the river here... ever.
Ellie: What's past the river?
Florence: Death. We never seen who's out there, but we see the bodies they leave behind. Some infected, some not. If your brother's west of the river, he's gone. [/End Audio from TV show]
Craig: The notion of these two characters emerged out of a sense of trying to place Joel and Ellie in a world where we don't have GPS. You can have a map. But if you have a map in the middle of the Rocky Mountains, good luck. You know, it's not so simple. And when you're looking for one man in a massive state, it's pretty easy to get lost. As Ellie says, "We must have missed all the traffic signs in the enormous fucking forest." And we had this notion that there is danger ahead that is unseen and poorly understood. Somewhere out there, there are bad people. Ghosts, monsters, who knows what. But, this isn't as simple as, "We're just gonna walk for a while." That there's real danger. And there's also, as we often do in the show, a sense that every time we meet a couple, whether they're brothers or husband and wife, there are echoes of Joel and Ellie inside of it. These two have been alone and isolated forever. There's no one else in their lives. And it's not like they're saying, "Hey wait, don't go. Please stay. Play Scrabble with us." This is how it is for them. You can end up in this world, just alone. 
Troy: How affected do you think they were by this world? 
Craig: My understanding of them is that they left before, well before the outbreak ever started. When the world ended, they were already off the grid. So, they have cordoned themselves off permanently from everything, and, even more so, by their concern about the things they've seen. They've reduced their world down to this cabin and a certain amount of area they can go, but you don't go west of the river. 
Neil: What's interesting, I think, for fans of the game, especially Part II, is it shows you can survive if you find, like, a quiet corner. There are still safe areas. It's not just all doom, and gloom, and danger, like, around every corner. It does exist, but you can survive there on your own. I think there's also... We would talk a lot about not exhausting our audience. And we just traumatized them with the end of the last episode. So, this was a moment of levity, a moment to show how Joel and Ellie have progressed in their relationship. They're much more comfortable with each other. And a lot of our conversations about this episode were like, "What is the impact on Joel from the experience of Henry and Sam?" And you get to see some of that as they exit the cabin, and he seizes his chest. 
Troy: So, what is going on there? 
Craig: What's happening is, Joel's having a panic attack, and he doesn't know why. Panic attacks feel very much like heart attacks. It's your body telling you, "You're in terrible danger," but you don't understand yet, why. And so much of what this episode is about, is Joel coming to terms with how terrified he is, suddenly, that she's going to die, and it's going to be his fault. And if you've been paying attention along the way, what you will see is, for as many times as Joel has helped her, he's also failed her. And those are the things that he dwells on. Like a lot of us, if you have core shame or core trauma the way Joel does, the things that you do well are discounted. Your failures, anything that reminds you of the tragedy of your past, you will magnify in your mind and your heart until it threatens to subsume you. 
Neil: He's convincing himself that what's best for Ellie is to let her go. And it's really to protect himself. And when you're playing the game, you know, the camera's quite far back. You swing it around the character, so there's no way to, like, see a lot of what's going on with the character's face. So, a lot of it has to be conveyed with dialog. So, the way we did in the game, as I'm sure you remember, Troy, we just made him that much more distant. Like, it's almost like the relationship has gone backwards. Here, again, because we could have these, like, intimate moments with the cameras right up there on your face, we could do it in much more subtle ways. And I also love Ellie's reaction here, which is, you know, when you look at your parents that have been protecting you your entire life, you don't want to accept that they have any sort of weakness. So she's getting angry with him, which I've felt this as well. You know, sometimes, as my parents get older, I was like, I don't know why that's the reaction, but you get angry that they're not invincible. 
Craig: Yeah. "If you die, I'm fucked" is what she says to him, which is, I think, a very child thing to say. Obviously, she, also, cannot process what that would emotionally be like. Neither one of them are operating on the level of emotional honesty or acceptance yet because they can't get there. What they are doing is, doing what Joel and Ellie do. Ellie is coming at this from the point of view of being this child who's saying, "Don't die, because I need you to stay alive." She's certainly not gonna say, "Don't die because I love you." And Joel is not saying, "I'm terrified that I'm gonna get you killed, and that's why I'm so upset." Instead, he's, his heart is seizing up on him, and he can't even explain why.
Neil: "It's the cold."
Craig: Yeah. -He says it's just the cold air.
Troy: "Just the cold air." So, after Joel has this episode, this panic attack, we then transition into Ellie staring up at the aurora borealis by the campfire. And she's talking about-- This is the first time we've really seen her become wistful, and maybe even hopeful. 
Craig: Yeah. 
Troy: And she talks about her desire to be an astronaut. Ellie: It's probably because I grew up in the QZ. Behind you, there's ocean. And ahead of you, there's a wall. Nowhere else to look but up. I read everything I could in the school library. Neil Armstrong, Buzz Aldrin, Jim Lovell... But you know who my favorite is? -Joel: Sally Ride. -Ellie: Sally-Fucking-Ride. Best astronaut name ever. 
Troy: Where did that come from? 
Craig: When I first started working with Neil on this adaptation, it was before The Last of Us Two had come out and I went over to-- It was the first time I'd ever gone over to Naughty Dog, and sat with him there. And he said, "You wanna see something from the second game?" And I was like, "Yeah." And he showed me a sequence from the second game that touches on Ellie's, you know, interest and fascination with being an astronaut and space travel. And it's an incredibly beautiful moment. And that's one of those times where I said, "Hey, we have this opportunity that Neil didn't have when he was making the first game, which is we know more now." It was also a moment to show that Joel knew Ellie, because she says, "But you know my favorite astronaut?" And he says, "Sally Ride." He knows. Even if Joel doesn't know why Sally Ride means so much to Ellie. And even if Ellie doesn't know why Sally Ride means so much to Ellie, instinctively, he's already in her head. He knows this kid. And she's not shocked by this either. She's not like, "Whoa! How'd you figure that out?" She's like, "That's right. Sally-Fucking-Ride, best astronaut name ever." 
Neil: To go even further back and talk about the origins of why Ellie likes space so much. You know, these things are massive collaborations, and everybody puts a part of them into this thing. And over the course of making the game, I've gotten to know you, Troy, and Ashley Johnson, who played Ellie. And Ashley loves space, and astronauts, and knows everything about it. And I'm like, "I want to make Ellie even more like Ashley." And likewise, Joel, or Troy, I should say, I knew your start was with music, and you play the guitar, and you sing. And that's why Joel says, "I would have wanted to be a musician. A singer." Yeah. There's just something-- I get a little emotional about this 'cause, like, we've all put, like, so much of ourselves in this. And the combination of all that makes for something greater. 
Troy: Joel doesn't admit that he wants to be a singer first. He says he wants to be... a shepherd. He wants to have a sheep ranch. 
Neil: Which is also a bit of-- For people that know Part II, it's a foreshadowing for where that's going. 
Craig: Absolutely. That's foreshadowing as well. 
Troy: Is this the truth for him? Or is he, again, reaffirming the distance that he feels? 
Craig: I think that there's something about it that appeals to Joel intellectually. He's a country boy to some extent. And so, I think the idea of isolation and peace... I mean, "shepherd" is, essentially, equivalent to peacefulness. I think he likes that idea intellectually. But is he being honest here? No. I think the honest truth is that if he could do anything or be anything, he would be a dad raising his daughter, whether it's Sarah or... He can't quite get there yet, to say it's Ellie, but... that's what he was put on the Earth to do. That's why he's been wandering around a little bit like a zombie himself for 20 years. He's trying to find his purpose, because it was taken from him. 
Neil: But it's also interesting, where is his mind at? Right? And it's like, he would like to be at a place where he would just be alone, because that's-- -that would be the easiest way for him to survive.
Craig: Right.
Neil: No threat to his heart.
Craig: Yeah. 
Neil: Nobody that he could lose. Nobody to have to look after. 
Craig: Yeah. What's interesting is that even as we show these moments of peace and happiness, we keep seeding these other little underlying threads of failure. So, for instance, Joel says, "You know what? I'm gonna take both watches tonight. You go ahead and sleep, dream of sheep ranches on the moon." And then he falls asleep. He fails. And she's the one who is looking after him, which is only reinforcing his growing panic that he is insufficient, that he is not gonna be able to keep her alive. So, even as the two of them are moving through this beautiful world and seem relatively safe, he, on the other hand, keeps feeling the pounding threat of his own inability to keep her alive. 
Neil: What's interesting there as well, is, like, Ellie is slowly becoming, not necessarily, Joel, but her idea of Joel, which, again, she believes is this invincible man that can never get hurt. 
Troy: We move into another one of those moments of threat and failure as we're surrounded by this group who has a dog.
[Audio from TV show:] (DOG BARKING) Speaker: Last chance for a bullet. If you're infected, he will smell it, and he will rip you up. (DOG CONTINUES BARKING) [/End Audio from TV show]
Craig: And we know that Ellie shows up as infected if you scan her. That goes all the way back to the first episode. So, now the two of them... they can't say it out loud, but they are both incredibly aware that she's in a lot of trouble. If the dog smells the infection on her, which it probably will, it's gonna kill her. They've dropped their guns, they are surrounded. Joel has no idea what to do. 
Neil: And he chokes. 
Craig: It is only because whatever is going on in Ellie isn't the kind of thing that a dog would smell, but maybe just a scanner would pick up, that she's saved. The truth is, there is nothing Joel can do there. What is he supposed to do?
Neil: Right. 
Craig: But that's rational thought. If you're a parent, you do something. You-- Basically, you go down with the ship. And he doesn't. He freezes. And if you suffer the trauma that Joel suffered, and you are put right back in that situation, the fact that your brain and body shut down should not be a surprise at all. 
Troy: Joel says, "I'm looking for my brother." And they say, "What's your name?" He says, "Joel." And we smash cut to now we are just outside the gates... of Jackson.
Craig: Yeah. So we find out that Maria, who is one of the leaders of this settlement in Jackson. She has a relationship with Tommy, which we find out is husband and wife. And that means she knows exactly who Joel is. Tommy's told her. 
Neil: But there's a massive difference here from the game that we can talk about.
Troy: Absolutely.
Craig: We're in Jackson. 
Neil: In the game, all the interaction with Tommy, interaction with Maria, everything happens in the dam. They're there fixing the dam for Jackson. In Last of Us Part I, we never go into Jackson, and that was mostly a time and budget issue that-- we actually had all this concept art for going inside, and we just didn't have the resources to pull it off. So when we started talking about the sequence, we're like, “Oh, we could just see the dam, but it'd actually be way more interesting to go into Jackson itself and see what's at stake.” Here's where you could settle down and actually live a semi-normal life. 
Troy: One of the other differences is the version that's in the game is when there's this opening of the gates, and Tommy comes out, and there's this moment of hesitation between the two of them, and then Tommy embraces him. Here we see a completely different version. As soon as he spots him on the horse, he jumps off, and he yells with this brotherly desperation.
[Audio from TV show:] Joel: Tommy! [/End Audio from TV show]
Craig: They're drawn to each other very powerfully, but give them enough time, and then, the resentment returns. 
Troy: They'll go right back to it. 
Craig: It doesn't even take a day. 
Troy: Because even Joel laughs about it, like, “What are you doing here?” He's like, “I'm here to save you.” I mean, how funny is that? He's like, “I can't believe this.” And then what happens off camera, he goes, “What happened?” He goes, “What happened to you?” 
Neil: When they sit down to eat after they get a tour of the place. 
Craig: Yeah. 
Neil: There's some really nice stuff that's happening there. Ellie just, like, has a sailor mouth. And, you know, Joel, being like... a good old Texan, is like apologizing. Apologizing for her manners. 
[Audio from TV show:] Ellie: What?
Joel: What's wrong with you?
Ellie: What about her manners?
Maria: She was just curious. Kids around here don't usually look or talk like you.
Ellie: Right. Well, maybe I'll teach them. And I want my gun back.
Maria: They also aren't armed.
Tommy: You know what, uh... I think maybe y'all got a little off on the wrong foot.
Ellie: She was going to have her guys kill us.
Tommy: Well, we got to be real careful about who we let in this place. [/End Audio from TV show]
Neil: But then, you know, when he starts getting this pushback from Maria, all of a sudden, it's like he gets very protective of his tribe, his family. He's like-- And he's trying to push her out, and then realizing, "No, no, this is someone Tommy has let into the circle without his permission." So, he has just a weird kind of reaction to it. And then there's like a nice kind of... Would you call it an Easter egg? I don't know if I'd call it an Easter egg. 
Craig: It's a little, I mean, it's ambiguous. -Somebody's staring at Ellie.
Neil: Yeah. 
Craig: I wonder who that could be, theoretically or not. We'll find out maybe one day. 
Troy: I completely missed that. “What are you looking at?” 
Neil: Yeah, because in Part II, there is a story about the first time Dina met Ellie that is very similar to what happens here. 
Craig: That doesn't mean that that's Dina, but it doesn't mean it's not. 
Troy: How interesting. I was-- Because the question that I was going to ask is, why is Ellie being so confrontational here? 
Craig: Well, Ellie's tribe is Joel. And Ellie has been taking a little bit of the lead ever since they've gotten to Wyoming. And what she knows is, they were captured by these people. Guns were pointed at them. They were threatened with dogs. And supposedly, they're killing people because Marlon and Florence told them. So, she's not happy. 
Neil: I think Ellie can smell what's happening here, which is there's something going on with Maria, where she doesn't like Joel. Ellie can sense that. 
Craig: Yes, she knows. When Maria says, you know, “A bad reputation doesn't mean you're bad,” or Tommy says that, and then Maria says, “Not always, at least.” That's when Joel realizes, but Ellie got it the first bounce. We should say, this episode was directed by Jasmila Zbanic, who is a brilliant, Bosnian filmmaker. She made this wonderful movie called Quo Vadis Aida. And Jasmila grew up in Sarajevo, in the middle of the war. And when we were talking to her about directing an episode, I said, “Look, we have these two episodes that take place in war-torn Kansas City. It's a city that has been divided. It has, essentially, erupted into a civil war. Who would know how to better do this than you?” And she said, “I have no interest in that.” She said, “I want to do this episode.” Because what she was interested in was showing a society that actually functioned. So the tour that happens, as Maria takes Joel and Ellie around and shows them this place and Ellie says, “This place really actually fucking works.” That is what Jasmila really grabbed onto, is the idea that you can still have a functioning society. And Maria is the key. One of the things that Tommy says to Joel when they're having this argument in the bar is, “I know that you and I killed people. We did it because it was the only way we knew how to survive. But it turns out, there were other ways. It's just, we weren't any good at them.” So there's this method of surviving that doesn't involve killing innocent people, that doesn't involve violence at all. 
Neil: Which is where Tommy's instincts lie. And we see that in episode one. In episode one, these two characters show you who they are. Tommy wants to stop and help that family. Joel says, “No, keep driving.” 
Craig: Exactly. And it's Tommy who joins the Army because he wants to try and spread democracy. Whatever they told him at the recruiting office. He joins the Fireflies. Joel never joined the Fireflies. Joel would never join the Fireflies. He blames Marlene for taking Tommy from him. But Tommy has always been looking for a way to make things better. 
Neil: It's just Joel has been controlling him. 
Craig: Yeah. And this notion that Maria has a better way of survival is a really interesting one. And it's something that Jasmila really drew out of this episode, in a really, I think, fascinating way, even to the point where Ellie can't help but be impressed. Joel, however, is jealous. 
Troy: We get the real version of that conversation once they're in the bar. He's like, “You haven't aged a bit.” And he goes, “You on the other hand.” And that's what you're talking about. The return of the resentment. 
Craig: There is this thing happening in that scene that is about lying. I'm a big believer that people are liars. Not because we're mean and evil, but we lie to protect ourselves. And Joel still doesn't have full access, I think, to his own feelings about Ellie. What he's doing is saying, “We're going to go take care of this ourselves. Me and you.” But really, what he's saying is, “I can't do it alone.” But he's not allowed to say that out loud. He's not allowed to say, “I'm insufficient. I'm going to get her killed.” All he can say in this moment is, “The two of us should do it.” And, “Why can't you do it?” And then that immediately turns into this recrimination.
[Audio from TV show:] Joel: What, 'cause your wife won't let you? 
Tommy: Joel. 
Joel: Is she the one who kept you off the radio? Is that why you stopped messaging me back? 
Tommy: After I ditched the Fireflies, Maria and her crew found me. They're good people. They didn't have to take me in, but they did. And all they ask is that I follow their rules. 
Joel: I'm your brother. 
Tommy: Yeah, I'm aware. [/End Audio from TV show]
Craig: Your wife kept you off the radio. Your wife kept you from me. 
Neil: He won't say, like, “It was you.” Like, he's trying to find blame outside of his tribe, outside of this little circle he's trying to protect. 
Craig: And then Tommy reveals why he's so reluctant to go.
[Audio from TV show:] Tommy: Maria's a few months along now. So I just got to be more careful. [/End Audio from TV show]
Craig: It's not like Tommy could know, although he kind of does know, that this is the worst possible thing at the worst possible time to say to Joel. Because it means, “I'm going to get to do the thing that was stolen from you. The only thing you ever wanted to do. I'm doing it now.” Joel, literally, I think, does the best he can do there. He doesn't walk out. He doesn't punch his brother in the face. He just says, “Well, I guess we'll see how it goes.” And obviously, Tommy doesn't take kindly to that and says the one thing that he shouldn't say. 
[Audio from TV show:] Tommy: Just because life stopped for you, doesn't mean it has to stop for me. [/End Audio from TV show]
Troy: The scene you're talking about is interrupted, -in the game, by gameplay.
Craig: Yep. 
Troy: Here, obviously that's-- You don't have that advantage, that convenient interruption of like, “Let's get you back on the stick.” 
Neil: One could argue, a disadvantage. 
Troy: A disadvantage. So that's my question, is like how much does that affect the story, knowing... you're not going to have infected that are now attacking because you are within the safety of Jackson. So, how does that affect...? 
Craig: It means you have to go deeper into the emotional action. And so what happens right after he walks out of this bar is something even worse. And this one gets me every time. He's having another panic attack. His hand goes to his chest. He can't breathe. He doesn't know why. And then he looks up, and he sees a woman that might as well be his daughter. I mean, one of the things about Nico is she has the greatest head of hair. 
Troy: Nico Parker, who, of course, plays Sarah. 
Craig: Yeah. And it's very specific. You know it when you see it. And here's this other woman, a grown woman, but he's looking at her from behind. She's got that hair it's this wonderful thing that Pedro does. He's blinking a lot, which we do when we're under stress. We tend to blink a lot. And so he's having this panic attack and his eyes are blinking and then he looks, and he sees this woman and he stops blinking. And he just stares, and he stops having a panic attack. He goes into something else. 
Neil: He's daydreaming. 
Craig: Yeah, he knows it's not her, but it could be her. And then this little girl runs over, and it's like, “And that could be my granddaughter.” 
Neil: Yeah, that's another life. 
Craig: And then the woman turns, and it's not Sarah, and suddenly he feels like the biggest idiot, like the most hopeless fool. That this is what he's still doing after 20 years. This is the moment where I think there is a snap in him, a break that will allow him, finally, to just tell his brother the truth. 
Troy: There is a particular cue from the score by our composer Gustavo Santaolalla called All Gone that's repeated quite often throughout both the game and the series. And whenever it comes on, I think about loss. And it all starts with Sarah. 
Neil: I think beautiful scores and scores that are used well, it's a way into the subconscious. So, it's a way to trigger certain memories or feelings without being explicit about it. So that's where, in the game and similar in the show, we use that theme again to hark back to that moment when he lost his daughter. And it's a way to tap into that. 
Craig: Yeah, and Nico did such a good job. I would tell Nico, “You are the point upon which this whole thing is built. It's you and your death.” That when Joel is looking at this woman, and we hear that theme, we feel it. We feel the loss. I feel it every time. I understand Joel in this moment. I'm not watching somebody feel something. I'm feeling something with them because I get it. 
Troy: Speaking to their history, that there's a totem of the honoring of that on the mantle when Ellie walks into the house. And we see this chalkboard with distressed chalk, so it's been there for a while, that has two names and two dates. We see Kevin and Sarah. And I noticed something and it, not to nitpick, but I was just curious. The date that Sarah died is the 27th. Historically, we know outbreak day was the 26th. I'm curious--
Craig: After midnight.
Troy: It's after midnight. 
Neil: This was a fun scene in that you don't get to see it in the game. In the game, it's like, Ellie and Joel part ways, so Joel can have a conversation with Tommy. Ellie goes with Maria, so she can feed her and take care of her. And then you just see the aftermath of that conversation where, like, somehow, Ellie learned about Joel's daughter. And here we got to brainstorm and flesh that out. And I think where we ended up was really cool. 
Craig: There was something that we wanted to take advantage of, which was the idea that for a moment here, we could see Ellie with a maternal figure again. We'd seen it briefly with Tess, and now we're with Maria. First of all, Maria supplies her with new clothing. She supplies her with this, the Diva Cup. And because half of our planet is women. These shows never talk about menstruation, which is a huge thing you're going to have to deal with in the apocalypse. This is the second time we've come around on it. Joel has no interest in helping out on that front, but here Maria has been thinking about it already. And it is connected, also, to sisterhood and womanhood. And Maria is giving her a haircut. 
[Audio from TV show:] Maria: Look, I'm not going to ask you what you're doing with him.
Ellie: Good.
Maria: But there are clearly things you don't know about Joel.
Ellie: Oh, like how he used to kill people? I know about that.
Maria: So then you understand my concern.
Ellie: He doesn't do that anymore.
Maria: He stopped killing people?
Ellie: Innocent ones. And Tommy did it, too. You worried about him?
Maria: Tommy was following Joel. The way you are now.
Ellie: Well, maybe I'm smarter than Tommy. No offense.
Maria: You are definitely smart. Would have made a hell of a lawyer. There's a whole lot you're not telling me. Good. Herein lies the point. Be careful who you put your faith in. The only people who can betray us are the ones we trust. [/End Audio from TV show]
Craig: She's not challenging Ellie because Ellie has a sailor's mouth or Ellie's angry. She's worried about Ellie. She has nothing invested in Ellie at all. She just met her. But she's worried about Joel and the way he is. And that makes her worry about Ellie. 
Neil: And the nice thing about these two characters is they're both extremely smart. Like, now, Ellie is being challenged by someone that's as smart as she is. 
Craig: Yeah. And who sees it. And I think Maria is impressed. Because Joel's intelligence isn't necessarily expressed verbally, but Ellie's is, and so is Maria's. And so this is a little bit-- I remember saying to Rutina Wesley, who plays Maria, and Bella, “This is a fight. -This is a fist fight.”
Neil: Yeah. 
Craig: We're just not punching each other, and we're going to shake hands at the end of it. But that's what's happening here. It's a fight. 
Neil: Like, earlier, we were talking about, like, is there a temptation to have more action? This is our action sequence right here, like the emotional action. And we're going to have more, like, later on. But to me, this is as captivating as the cul-de-sac beat in the previous episode. But we also get to see how loyal Ellie is, because what does she do? She defends Joel all the way to the end, including insulting Maria and her husband, all to justify who Joel is, because this is her dad. 
Craig: But there has to be, I think, a little bit of a note, a little thread inside Ellie, that's shaken when Maria says, “Be careful in whom you put your trust. The people we trust are the only ones who can betray us.” Inside, it's hard for Ellie to deny the absolute truth of that. And there is something weird in the air here in Jackson. And it happens right away when they enter Jackson, and Ellie watches Joel run over to his brother. There's-- you can see a jealousy in her, or a fear. “Wait.” 
Troy: He's mine. 
Craig: Yeah, “That one is mine”" 
Neil: And again, Ellie is smarter than she realizes. She has probably already sensed something since the Henry and Sam moment. 
Craig: Yes. Something is off. 
Troy: Then we see Maria bring Ellie to go see a movie with the rest of the town. And the movie is a 1977 classic. 
Craig: Goodbye Girl. 
Troy: Goodbye Girl with Richard Dreyfuss. Deep cut. I've never seen it.
Craig: Really? 
Troy: Tell me why you chose this movie and why I should see it. 
Craig: Well, I saw this movie when I was a kid, and I loved it. And I think maybe it was because it wasn't just about a man and a woman falling in love. There was a kid. And the kid was saying, “That would be a good dad.” That was the real love story. This scene that we show when they're watching the movie is really the first real meeting between this man and this little girl. And I like the idea of movies as an additional signifier of how civilized this place was, because up until this point, the world revolves around ammunition, guns. 
Troy: Food. 
Craig: Food, batteries, transportation. And the only other person that was invested in art was Frank. And I liked the idea that one of the signifiers that this town is functioning is that it is still interested in art, and the community gathering together to watch a movie. 
Neil: Which in the game, right, they're on the outskirts of Jackson, and Tommy says, “They'll be watching movies tonight.” 
Craig: Exactly. 
Neil: And here, we get to see it. 
Troy: In stark contrast to that, Joel could have been in there watching the movie as well, but what he decided to do instead was go off and, kind of like a dad, put himself in a shed and tool around.
Craig: Isolate.
Troy: Isolate. 
Craig: Self-isolate. He can't face his brother. He can't face Maria. He definitely can't face Ellie right now. He has come to grips finally with the reality that he isn't good enough. 
Troy: And he says it in a very compelling way.
[Audio from TV show:] Joel: You think I can still handle things, but... I'm not who I was. I'm weak. Lately, there are these moments where the fear comes up out of nowhere and... my heart... feels like it stopped. [/End Audio from TV show]
Craig: He says, “I'm failing in my sleep.” And that was-- That was obviously a hard monologue to write. But the line when he says, “I have dreams.” “What dreams?” “I don't know." "All I know is that when I wake up, I know I've lost something.” That was from Pedro directly. That notion that when you wake up, you just have a feeling that you've lost something was so beautiful and it's so confessional. And this is not at all like something we saw from Joel in the game. This is different. This is... This is sadder, I think. It's a little more broken down and it's a little more upsetting. 
Neil: Yeah, in the game, Tommy comes to the realization when he sees how much Joel cares for Ellie after an action sequence. Here, it's like Joel has to plead.
Craig: He has to beg.
Neil: Joel has to, like, show-- It's the most vulnerable we've seen him yet. 
Troy: This is a difference of the stoic, "play it close to the vest" Joel that we've seen. What excited you, what scared you about showing this version of Joel? 
Neil: There was no fear. We had talked about it quite a bit beforehand, so I was excited to see the execution of it more than anything, because I knew it would give us more insight into who this character is, and what drives him and what scares him. 
Craig: I think I'm mostly concerned with not boring people. 
Troy: Yeah. 
Craig: So, if you can interest people in a quiet discussion between two humans, then that sometimes is as impactful, if not more so, than a big action sequence. This episode, in particular, has really only one action sequence. 
Neil: And it's pretty short. 
Craig: It's short, and it's at the end. This episode is about other stuff. All the action is emotional action, and if you qualify emotional action as being as impactful as physical action, this is one of our most action-packed episodes because a lot of emotional crossroads meet here. So, Joel started this journey looking for his brother. He was terrified that his brother was in trouble. He's going to find his brother. Joel started this journey saying to Ellie, “You're not family, you're cargo.” She's family now, and he doesn't know what to do about it. Ellie started this journey looking up to Tess and thinking that that was the person that was going to lead her to the Promised Land. Well, now Joel has become her father figure, but she is starting to doubt whether or not she herself will even be effective as the hope for humanity. All of these things are coming together, and to me, that's as exciting to watch, and certainly as exciting to write, as action. 
Neil: For the game as well, it was kind of a similar thing of, you know, we made what we call a “character action adventure game.” But this episode has one of the most memorable moments from the game, which has no action, quote unquote, which is the moment where Ellie confronts Joel about wanting to leave her. 
[Audio from TV show:] Joel: You'll be way better off with Tommy. He knows the area better than I do. 
Ellie: Do you give a shit about me or not?
Joel: Course I do.
Ellie: Then what are you so afraid of? I'm not her, you know. Maria told me about Sarah and-
Joel: No. Don't say another word. [/End Audio from TV show]
Troy: Let's talk about that scene. 
Craig: This is one of those moments that I have sense memory of, you know, playing the game and just being shocked. This is a spot where, I mean, even in an episode where we are in Jackson, which wasn't in the game, and Joel has said a lot of very different things to Tommy that weren't in the game, this is one of those moments where I said, “I want to, with rare exception, we're doing the scene because the scene is great.” I want the wallpaper to be the same, I want her sitting where she was sitting, I want her reading the diary, and I want to feel all of it. I think with two exceptions, one at the end where he says, you know, “Come dawn,” and then one that I'm sure you want to ask about, which is “Mighty thin ice,” it's the same scene. 
Troy: And for people who are fans of the game, there is what would be considered an iconic line that I'd love to know the story of, because it was a carefully preserved thing. People who know are going to be like, “Why isn't that line in there?” 
Neil: Right. I can answer that. Because this Joel is a little bit different. His dialect is a little bit different. If that line stayed in there, I think it would have stood out in a way that would have taken away from this version of the scene. 
Troy: Well, when we originally did it, I don't know if you know this or not, but it wasn't “Mighty thin ice”" it was “You're treading on thin ice.” 
Neil: Well, the other thing, I guess, is that, again, to give credit, is the scene wasn't written with that shove. 
Troy: No. 
Neil: We were struggling to get the emotion out of that scene. And I remember we had to like-- We tried a few times, and were like, "Let's take a break." I think you asked, “Can we take five?” -I'm like, “Let's take 15.”
Troy: Yeah. 
Neil: And then we came back and did it. And then Ashley, just on her own, shoved you across the stage. And that was the take.
Troy: The “Don't” in Pedro's... 
Troy: And what it was, it wasn't a threat. Again, he's pleading. It's almost the same “Please don't” that he gave to the sniper. -"Please don't."
Craig: It's the exact same thing. And the scene doesn't change the subtext of, “You're treading on mighty thin ice,” and “Don't say another word.” The context is exactly the same. “Stop in your tracks. Turn around, go back.” And in both scenes, Ellie does not. Ellie moves forward, physically moves forward. 
Troy: And if I'm not mistaken, also, “Everyone has left me except for you” was the original line. Craig, 
Troy: “Fucking except for you.” 
Craig: And what I love about that is the imperfection of it. That's not where the word "fucking" belongs normally, syntactically. Which shows you that Ashley was just in the moment. Because we are not perfect when we speak. 
Neil: If I had written that line and looked at it, I would've been like, "Uh..." and moved it around. 
Craig: Of course. Exactly. You would never write it like that. But it's perfect the way it is. So that was perfectly replicable, and it was important to me that we do it.
[Audio from TV show:] Ellie: Everybody I have cared for has either died or left me. Everybody fucking except for you! So don't tell me that I'd be safer with somebody else. Because the truth is, I would just be more scared. [/End Audio from TV show]
Neil: Again, for me, as someone that obviously has a lot of attachment to that scene, like, it's equally moving. It's like you're looking into another dimension. That's the best way I can describe it. Now, what I would say to our fans is like, “Don't do the comparison thing. Because like-- Appreciate it for what it is.” It's like another group of artists taking a crack at it and creating something beautiful.
[Audio from TV show:] Joel: You're right. You're not my daughter, and I sure as hell ain't your dad. [/End Audio from TV show]
Troy: For me, in that moment, in that performance, what I got is, “I am rejecting the dream, the ideal.” 
Neil: But once again, he is lying.
Craig: Yeah. He's lying.
Craig: It is technically correct. He wants it to be true. He feels like, “If I just say that and walk away, I have saved myself from pain and despair.”
Neil: But it's too late.
Craig: It's too late. And the fact that he thinks about his own daughter right after that is not, “And that is my real daughter. Therefore, I've made the right decision.” It's more like, -“I have the same feeling."
Neil: Right. 
Craig: “I can't walk away. I can't.” He tries. Next morning, he tries, and he just can't do it. And what he says to Ellie is, “You deserve a choice.” Now, that's a cop out.
Troy: Right. 
Craig: That's a total cop out. 
Troy: Wonderfully masked, by the way, in democracy, and as a noble gesture. 
Neil: Which, by the way-- I don't know how to say this without spoiling something, but it's like, that line specifically is very interesting to where the story goes. 
Craig: Yes, I agree. It is. It will echo back later on, the notion of choice. But it, here, is a lie. He's not there because she has a choice. He's not doing her a favor. He's doing himself a favor. He can't leave. He can't. He cannot do it. And what I love is how Ellie doesn't even give him a chance to con-- She's just like, “Good. Thank you. Here we go. We're back.” She doesn't need him to apologize. She doesn't need him to explain himself. She doesn't care. She doesn't care why he said those terrible things to her the night before. All she cares about is she got Joel back. That's all she wanted. 
Troy: There's something about this goodbye between Tommy and Joel. And it's a long embrace, and one could almost interpret it as final. But then, we have Tommy's offer. “There's a place here for you,” which again, is that one last chance. And Joel's response, and I didn't catch the first time, “I'm counting on it,” to me, shows that there is hope and that they will make it back from what he calls "a suicide mission." And the request, “Can I borrow the rifle?” Not, “Can I have the rifle?” “Can I borrow the rifle?” What does that moment mean to both of you? 
Neil: Again, it's the fantasy we all have of like, “Okay, we're going to all be fine. We're going to all end up well and healthy and we're going to come back here, and it's all going to turn out okay.” 
Troy: Do you feel this is a-- that Joel looks at this as a fresh start? 
Craig: I think that he sees that Tommy's figured it out. Tommy was looking for something, a way to make the world better. And he did. “This place fucking works,” as Ellie said. 
Neil: He's changed. He's accepted his role now. 
Craig: Yeah. He can come back here with Ellie, and they're going to live in that house. 
Neil: And she's going to watch movies and eat bacon. 
Craig: And it's going to be okay. He has to do one last thing, and he won't fail this time. And once he has succeeded, he gets to have the life he deserves, and he gets to reclaim his purpose in a place that works. 
Neil: I guess it's also the first time he's finally investing in her future, which is his future. 
Troy: He begins to take on the role of a dad. 
Neil: Yeah. He begins to accept it. 
Craig: Yeah, he's been doing it. But what he's done, I think Neil's exactly right, he is no longer afraid. There are no more panic attacks here. He has accepted her completely. There's no more place where he's like fighting to not be enmeshed with this person. He has now accepted that he's enmeshed, and that the first manifestation of this new phase of their life is he teaches her how to shoot. He teaches her to be more like him. 
Neil: It's the calm before the storm where we get to see him... You know, when I was working on the original game, you know, sometimes when you write genre, you dive as deeply as you can into the genre. You study like every single story in that genre. One of my favorite movies is Road to Perdition. And it's a little different from the comic book that it's based on, in that Tom Hanks does everything he can to protect his son from ever getting corrupted by violence. I knew for the story we wanted to tell here, back when we did it in the game, it was like... I think as a dad in that world, if I'm really trying to protect my kid, I'm not gonna protect them from violence. I'm gonna teach them how to use violence as a tool so they will be safe. You know, Joel's been trying to protect her from that. Of like never giving her a gun, and then slowly trusting her, but only for emergencies. And now he's slowly teaching her to become more and more of a violent person like him. 
Craig: And I love this dad thing that I remember feeling with my dad. Which is, dads are magic, they can do magic things. Like they can shoot that gun perfectly. When my oldest was younger, sometimes she would stay up too late. And I didn't know necessarily, the door's closed, I didn't know necessarily that she was staying up too late, but, you know, what I would do is, around 10:30 or 11:00, I'd wander over and then I'd just open the door slightly. And if I caught her, like, playing on the iPad or whatever, I would say, "I don't know why you think you can get away with this. You can't. I'm Dad. I will always know." -"But how?" And I had her so convinced that it was just dad magic. When in fact, all I was doing was just checking a lot. That's all I was doing. But that was the trick. And when we're kids, we look up to our fathers because they can do these things. Probably nine times out of ten, he doesn't bullseye that target, but he did on that one, he's like...
Neil: But is there a better feeling than when your kid is proud of you? 
Craig: No, that's the greatest. You love it, and they love it, because it makes them feel safe. And everything that happened here, I remember talking a lot about this section with Neil is he was like, "This is the best it will ever be between Joel and Ellie." He's teaching her about football, teaching her about the way the world used to be. He was a contractor, which is one of my favorite things ever, because everybody loves contractors. He can revise history. And she puts her head on his shoulder. It's a father and it's a daughter, and they love each other, and they're at peace. They have finally occupied the place they're supposed to be. 
Neil: And they're gonna be okay, nothing bad will happen.
Troy: Well...
Craig: Of course not.
Troy: I was about to say-
Neil: Thanks, Troy. 
Troy: You have trained us now to understand, of course, we've learned with this story that those moments of beauty and rest are quickly interrupted. And we see the sign of the Firefly, but there is a huge difference-- We had this wonderful fight with Joel and one of these hunters, and Joel gets injured. So let's talk a little bit about the difference here, in this fight. 
Craig: Well, in the game, Joel falls from I think the second floor of a building and lands on his back on the ground and is impaled by a piece of rebar, right through his abdomen. And that does make sense tonally in a world where you are curing yourself of gunshot wounds, for instance. But we're dealing with a more grounded approach to the way violence impacts the human body. So this is pretty serious, and as simple as, there's just this broken shard of a baseball bat that this guy stuck Joel with. And Joel didn't even realize it until he sees Ellie looking at it and he looks down and says, "Uh-oh," and he pulls this thing out. And that is a very serious wound. And he's not going to make it. He's gonna die. He falls off his horse, he is bleeding out, he is unconcious. And Bella just does this beautiful, and what I love about it is it's still selfish, "I don't know where I am. I don't what the fuck I'm gonna do." It's not, "Oh, Father, no!" 
Neil: The subtext is, "Oh, Father..." 
Craig: But it's like, "I am terrified. What do I do without you?" And that's when we bring back Never Let Me Down Again. 
Neil: There's something that I love and I've never said this to you, Craig, but I'll say it here, which is how personal the end of this episode is to you. Because there's a part of your daughter -in this episode.
Craig: Yes. ♪ I'm taking a ride With my best friend ♪ ♪ I hope he never lets me Down again ♪
Craig: That is my daughter.
Troy: What? 
Craig: Yeah, so, my daughter is 18, and she is a remarkably talented singer. I know I sound like a jerk who's just a dumb dad talking about his kids saying how great they are. I'm not that guy. I'm also very cognizant of the whole nepo baby discussion out there. And I had this idea that at the end of this episode when Ellie is looking down at Joel and this is the person-- She was taking a ride with him, and he has let her down, even though it's Never Let Me Down Again. This is how it comes around, and I wanted to re-present that song but in this point of view of just sadness and loss. And I also wanted to hear a female voice singing it to echo Ellie. And you can spend months reaching out to various people of all level of fame trying to get them to do it, but the problem I had was that there was this kid down the hall from me in my house who I knew could crush it. So, I sent her the song, and I said, "Jessie, can you do a cover of this that is haunting and slow, and about a daughter mourning the loss of her father? Just have that in your mind as you do it." And she said, "Okay." And then, like, two weeks went by. And I'm like, "Where the hell is my song?" So I'm like, "Hey, Jessie, where's my song?" She goes, "Oh, uh, I forgot." And I'm like, "Listen to me, and I want to make this clear. Daddy is saying he wants to put your song on television. Can you please just-- Please?" And she's like, "Ugh, fine!" And she sent it to me and I was like, "God damn." And the version that we put together for the end I think is-- It feels like an echo of Ellie. And to the extent that Jessie's my daughter, and I think of Bella as kind of an adopted daughter, it's this gorgeous moment for me personally where it's like my two daughters are together in this moment at the end of the episode. 
Troy: "I don't know where we're going or what we're going to do." These are the words that Ellie ends the episode with and the answer to those questions... next week. Well, thank you, Craig, for joining us. 
Craig: My pleasure. 
Troy: And thank you, Neil, for being with us as well. 
Neil: Thank you. 
Troy: This has been the official The Last of Us Podcast from HBO. Again, I'm Troy Baker, joined by Craig Mazin and Neil Druckmann. You can stream new episodes of the HBO original series The Last of Us Sundays on HBO Max. The podcast episodes are available after episodes of The Last of Us air on HBO. You can find this show wherever you listen to podcasts. Like and follow HBO's The Last of Us on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. And as always, when you're lost in the darkness, look for the light.
Narrator: This is the official companion podcast for HBO's The Last of Us, hosted by Troy Baker. Our producers are Elliott Adler, Bria Mariette, and Noah Camuso. Darby Maloney is our editor. The show is mixed by Hannis Brown. Our executive producers are Gabrielle Lewis and Bari Finkel. Production music is courtesy of HBO, and you can watch episodes of The Last of Us on HBO Max.
Category:HBO's The Last of Us Podcast transcripts