121049-rough-seas-ahead

== Content ==
			
When the first Drop 3 build hit the PTR back in August I had high hopes. Shortly after this, we heard all the changes coming to the Drop cycle, and how it was being moved to a Quarterly Patch system instead so that we could have (virtually) bug-free content and changes that would better impact the game a whole. Around the time of that announcement, Donatelli went onto the Nexus Report and showed us the "bible". This is what he called the 100 or so pages of fixes being implemented into Drop 3. He looked me in the eyes and told me things would get better.
 
Fast forward about a month from that and we are in the beginning of October. Drop 3, the Jesus-Drop, still hadn't been implemented and things were changing, just not things we wanted to see changed. We started seeing more players leave than we had before and more and more discussions about the impact of proposed changes currently on the PTR. Just remember, the dev are listeningTM. What they were listening to around that time frame clearly wasn't the community. It has been said before that they are listening, but may not be replying to our feedback, may not need feedback, or what-have-you, but they were listening nonetheless. 
 
An entire class was almost ignored. Drop 3's proposed changes almost erased Stalkers from the game. They were speaking in unison about DPS changes and threat issues that were so game-breaking, we saw an exodus of a number of the best Stalkers in this game. To me, this marked the start of what I should have expected to see coming. The DPS issue was fixed, moments before Drop 3 going live (as were a number of other controversial changes), but not the threat issue. It took an additional 10 days to listen to what Stalker tanks had been saying for months before a bandaid was implemented. 
 
I thought that perhaps, ignoring an entire class could have been an isolated incident, but I would soon find out that I was wrong. Things were broken here, others over there, players' concerns being shrugged off and flamed by both White Knights and Carbine employees themselves. Donatelli, looked, me, in, the, eyes... and said... things... would...get...better. Drop 3 was supposed to end this, at least that's what I was conditioned to believe. And now, with Drop 4 (patch 1.2.0, whatever you are calling it now) getting ever-closer, I am being spoon-fed the same exact lines. 
 
Drop 3 was gutted and given a 2 month delay to prepare for Drop 4. Enough is enough. It's time you start showing what little of a playerbase you have left, that you mean business.
 
Things That Need Addressing in Some Fashion, NOW:
 
1. PvP. Give us something here. The bandaids are starting to fall off and entire servers, 50% of your game's infrastructure is disappearing/transferring because this issue is continually being promised to be looked at, but never sees the light of day ultimately because of little things.
 
2. Itemization. To fix the biggest problem with itemization, all that needed to be done was to remove brutality from healing gear. This would not solve the long-term problem, but it would have been literally a perfect short-term fix. Instead we have an entire DPS class without crit, standardized runes, and stat allocations that make no sense. Carbine, reinventing the wheel at every turn.
 
3. Class Overhauls. Stop it, just stop. Players would be more receptive to minute changes that can be tested and given feedback on rather than completely over-hauling the way an entire class plays the game because it wasn't what one person had in mind.
 
4. The grind. I've been hearing since August about how this game was going to be less grindy. It is in some way, but reducing the time required from 60 days to 59 days isn't really helping the issue.
 
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On another note. Carbine, you have some brilliant players on these forums that have dedicated days, weeks even to playing 1 aspect of 1 class in 1 environment. LISTEN TO THESE PLAYERS. I repeat. LISTEN TO THESE PLAYERS. In case it wasn't clear. L-I-S-T-E-N T-O T-H-E-S-E P-L-A-Y-E-R-S!
 
As developers you are not perfect. If you make a change that just flat-out doesn't work, admit you were wrong and move on. If a player comes up with an idea, use this idea. Call it your own, discredit the player when he says "x change was implemented because of me" if you have to. Blizzard has a lot of success doing this, capitalize on it. 
 
When you propose a change to a system that your playerbase is accustomed to, LET THEM TEST IT. Let them drive the feedback and use our free labor and desire to see this game succeed to your benefit. If you keep up with what I'm seeing, you will be the only ones left playing your game.
 
"Pride goeth before a fall" 	
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			i have nothing to add but this post is too good to let slide of the front page so +1	
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Why would they listen to players?
 
1. Players don't make video games and have no expertise in the field
2. Players don't have access to important info only accessible to the Devs
3. Players are incredibly biased toward their chosen class
 
Sure listen to the players and our feedback but keep in mind, no player in Wildstar has the expertise to make appropriate balance decisions.
 
Feedback like "So and so kill quest requires 50 mobs but only 1 mob spawns at a time" is good feedback.
 
Feedback like "So and So class should have an instant kill win button because I play it and he's so cool" is useless feedback 	
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i think OP is refering to theorycrafters in very high min/max situations.
in this case he is completely right, and is allusion to blizzard "borrowing" from suggestions is totally true
fact is , even if each individual class has 1 class lead, he wont put the hours into a specific scenario a min/maxer will	
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Why would they listen to players?
 
1. Players don't make video games and have no expertise in the field
2. Players don't have access to important info only accessible to the Devs
3. Players are incredibly biased toward their chosen class
 
Sure listen to the players and our feedback but keep in mind, no player in Wildstar has the expertise to make appropriate balance decisions.
 
Feedback like "So and so kill quest requires 50 mobs but only 1 mob spawns at a time" is good feedback.
 
Feedback like "So and So class should have an instant kill win button because I play it and he's so cool" is useless feedback
 
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Why would they listen to players?
 
1. Players don't make video games and have no expertise in the field
Ah, but they are players and thus have expertise in playing games and know that they like. They also are often more intimate with what works or does not.
 
2. Players don't have access to important info only accessible to the Devs
But is that info necessary to see reasons why players are leaving the game?
 
3. Players are incredibly biased toward their chosen class
I agree, but many of the players often will say that it is not that they are too weak, but that this that or the other thing is broken. Much of our LAS/Amps are useless and suggestions have been made. If the Devs use the info from #2 along with  listening to the players, truly informed choices can be made.
 
 
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Why would they listen to players?
 
1. Players don't make video games and have no expertise in the field
2. Players don't have access to important info only accessible to the Devs
3. Players are incredibly biased toward their chosen class
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			Dev should never listen to players with the direction of a class, people will always chose the simplest things for the greatest output. If Carbine took player's opinion seriously the game would be in worse stat. I also don't know a single stalker that quit during the threat issue.	
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Dev should never listen to players with the direction of a class, people will always chose the simplest things for the greatest output. If Carbine took player's opinion seriously the game would be in worse stat. I also don't know a single stalker that quit during the threat issue.
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i pray no game ever agrees with you, in most succesful games at least some consideration is given to hard core theory crafters. even a class dev only has so much hands on time
there a theory crafters out there with litleraly hundreds of hours in a single BG, or dungeon
no dev has that, they are busy making the game
hardcore theory crafting community is what helps all the noob players in a game, not the class leads
if they know enough to guide the players, they know enough to guide the devs
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PATCH NOTES!!!!!
PATCH NOTES!!!!!
PATCH NOTES!!!!!
PATCH NOTES!!!!!
PATCH NOTES!!!!!
PATCH NOTES!!!!!
PATCH NOTES!!!!!
PATCH NOTES!!!!!
PATCH NOTES!!!!!
 
is it that hard to make them? how can we test something that we dont know was changed?	
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i pray no game ever agrees with you, in most succesful games at least some consideration is given to hard core theory crafters. even a class dev only has so much hands on time
there a theory crafters out there with litleraly hundreds of hours in a single BG, or dungeon
no dev has that, they are busy making the game
hardcore theory crafting community is what helps all the noob players in a game, not the class leads
if they know enough to guide the players, they know enough to guide the devs
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Also, very rarely do theorycrafters want an I-WIN button. They want a fun, interesting class that can compete with others in whatever aspect they choose to play it (heal, tank, dps). 
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			I'd suggest not overthinking it and just play the game. It's fun.	
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I'd suggest not overthinking it and just play the game. It's fun.
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Exactly this. The problem is, different people want different things. If you give one group what they want, the other group typically gets shafted. Which is why it's best to just find a game you enjoy rather than one you wish you could enjoy and trying to ruin the experience of the people who do enjoy it. Go have fun! That's what it's all about.
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Dev should never listen to players with the direction of a class, people will always chose the simplest things for the greatest output. If Carbine took player's opinion seriously the game would be in worse stat. I also don't know a single stalker that quit during the threat issue.
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I think part of this argument is not understanding how a company would professionally listen to players.  Listening to the consumer doesn't necessarily mean reading their forum feedback and the things they come to post about.
 
What Carbine needs to do is start asking for feedback and start listening to players by asking them the RIGHT QUESTIONS.  This starts with active communication from the class leads, and PATCH NOTES.
 
You see, I'm someone that can give first hand experience of the current (albeit small) arena meta.  I've made videos and have a youtube channel of matches to watch.  I can, at request, give intimate details of classes, etc and how they interact.  More or less, I'm a wealth of knowledge that comes from time spent in a hobby.
 
Listening to everything I ever write on the forums would probably end up with a whole lot of drastically made changes made from my sarcasm.
 
However, asking me a specific question, such as, how could Spellslingers potentially increase their viability in the current meta without becoming too over the top, could produce valuable feedback.  This feedback could also be peer reviewed (forums), for refining, as well as lead to better questions.
 
The point is , lots of people are giving feedback, but just like we don't have any patch notes to give solid feedback, Carbine isn't asking us the right questions.	
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Notice how I said the direction of the class, theory crafting is a completely different thing. The problem with a lot of what is going on with the forums atm is you have people that don't theory craft suggesting changes, mainly people that purely PvP. Its pretty rare that a player actually PvPs and PvE, so its hard to take 1 person seriously when their only looking at 1 part of the game.
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+1 to this. Players typically are good for identifying things they like but awful at suggesting good changes. Devs honestly normally never take player suggestions seriously and there's a good reason for that. People who think otherwise are just ignorant. 
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You have defined ignorance. Devs are normally players of games much like the players themselves. There is no special school one attends to learn game balance. Devs, excluding the fact that some of them had a hand in creating things, are no better equipped to assess and propose changes than players. You make it sound as if devs are gods that should be revered and given total trust when this is rarely the complete story. 
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You have defined ignorance. Devs are normally players of games much like the players themselves. There is no special school one attends to learn game balance. Devs, excluding the fact that some of them had a hand in creating things, are no better equipped to assess and propose changes than players. You make it sound as if devs are gods that should be revered and given total trust when this is rarely the complete story. 
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Wait, what?
 
The very definition of a developer means they ARE better equipped and have access to data and information that allows them to very precisely make better decisions for the health of the game than players.
 
Player input is important from a "fun" perspective, and Carbine has always been very transparent. But players don't have the information to experience to make calls about balance when they can't see the bigger picture.
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. He looked me in the eyes and told me things would get better.
 
 Donatelli, looked, me, in, the, eyes... and said... things... would...get...better.
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I don't really see how this is a discussion.  It is the developer's job to pursue feedback, stats, and opinions.  It is their job to discover / interpret metrics, design a system that reflects those discoveries and the feedback, while also following management design goals and guidelines.
 
Ultimately, the developers should be gathering feedback and I think that mine and Psyknis' points stand.  It isn't their job to let us make the design decisions, but it is their job to determine what feedback we give holds value and what does not.
 
Another thing to think about here, is the size of Carbine vs something like Blizzard.  Blizzard is a massive company that most likely has far better metrics, review, and teams of people testing / designing / reviewing changes.  Carbine doesn't have that.  They most likely have a class team that shares responsibilities with other teams, with very few people.  If you were to say, we should trust the devs @ blizzard, they probably know, I would agree. They are a company that people compete to get into.  They're a company with tried and tested processes / design decisions that bring in subscribers.
 
Carbine is none of those things.  Carbine is coming up from nothing here, basically, and the decisions of the class leads, or the lead developers are very important.  We don't know, for instance, if X class lead comes from a lot of experience, or just happened to be the guy that got picked to fill the role of someone who left the company for greener pastures.  We don't know if X developer is fresh out of college, or a seasoned MMO class designer, etc.
 
... and I think that's why its important to continue to give feedback.    I've been a top PvPer in MMOs for years.  I've been a main tank for a competitive progression guild in WoW.  I've had a hobby for years that lends experience and knowledge based on the topic we're discussing.  Now, I haven't been designing in MMOs, ever.  I do however, have quite a bit of experience designing and streamlining systems.  I have good knowledge of advanced mathematics.
 
Basically, what I'm saying is that there is a large pool of people here with different viewpoints and different careers.  Maybe there's a senior MMO executive producer, or a senior lead software engineer that play this game as a hobby.  Maybe they give input sometimes.  You can't just discredit people and assume they're all 15 year old WoW players who cry about warrior/medics or whatever fotm is overpowered at the time.  There really are people out there that have wisdom to share.
 
Whether Carbine Developers choose to take their feedback or not is their decision, but to say that they should NEVER listen to people that play their game?  Nah.  That's silly.  You take suggestions as you would in any other environment.	
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Um.... were you on the Nexus report?
 
If not, then he looked into a camera, not directly at you.
 
You're taking their modification of their proposals awfully personal.
 
If you are truly that upset with the product, then calmly explain the problem, unsub and come back when you think it's gotten better. Other people have already done this. I see at least three returning players posting on the front page right now, with no telling how many silently resubscribe
 
But to claim they "looked you in the eye and are spoon feeding you lies" is really melodramatic. It does a lot more to undercut your suggestions rather than promote them.
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Okay, so then he was talking to no one, you're right. That was used more metaphorically than literally, glad you caught that though, thanks.
 
I may unsub, even so, I would have 6 months left of playing time. so that really wouldn't alleviate any problems. 
 
Just as you cannot tell how many silently sub, you cannot tell how many silently un-sub. For the 3 that have made their presence known, I have recently lost 3 guildmates to games such as WoW, LoL, and Smite.
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It's cool. Just wanted to point out how you were sounding. It's an easy trap to fall into. Hell, I've done it myself in other game forums.
 
And I don't disagree with you. Devs should listen to their players. But you always have to be impartial and professional in the way you say things. Avoid hyperbole, exaggeration and drama and, sooner or later, the devs will catch on.
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It's cool. Just wanted to point out how you were sounding. It's an easy trap to fall into. Hell, I've done it myself in other game forums.
 
And I don't disagree with you. Devs should listen to their players. But you always have to be impartial and professional in the way you say things. Avoid hyperbole, exaggeration and drama and, sooner or later, the devs will catch on.
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I think part of this argument is not understanding how a company would professionally listen to players. Listening to the consumer doesn't necessarily mean reading their forum feedback and the things they come to post about.
 
What Carbine needs to do is start asking for feedback and start listening to players by asking them the RIGHT QUESTIONS. This starts with active communication from the class leads, and PATCH NOTES.
 
You see, I'm someone that can give first hand experience of the current (albeit small) arena meta. I've made videos and have a youtube channel of matches to watch. I can, at request, give intimate details of classes, etc and how they interact. More or less, I'm a wealth of knowledge that comes from time spent in a hobby.
 
Listening to everything I ever write on the forums would probably end up with a whole lot of drastically made changes made from my sarcasm.
 
However, asking me a specific question, such as, how could Spellslingers potentially increase their viability in the current meta without becoming too over the top, could produce valuable feedback. This feedback could also be peer reviewed (forums), for refining, as well as lead to better questions.
 
The point is , lots of people are giving feedback, but just like we don't have any patch notes to give solid feedback, Carbine isn't asking us the right questions.
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Wait, what?
 
The very definition of a developer means they ARE better equipped and have access to data and information that allows them to very precisely make better decisions for the health of the game than players.
 
Player input is important from a "fun" perspective, and Carbine has always been very transparent. But players don't have the information to experience to make calls about balance when they can't see the bigger picture.
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Just because you ask for something doesn't mean it's going to happen.  The devs are human beings like us.  The devs are also under a notoriously strict publisher (NCSoft) who DEMANDS Agile/Rally use in their studios, which often leads to big issues being pushed back or canceled for the sake of deadlines.  Agile doesn't work for playability or customer satisfaction, it pushes for deadlines.  That will more often than not cut much-sought-after content and fixes from major releases.  I bet right now the fixes and changes you'd be happiest with have been playing Release Milestone Shuffle for months now.
 
Source:  Working for an NCSoft studio.
 
 
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Wait, what?
 
The very definition of a developer means they ARE better equipped and have access to data and information that allows them to very precisely make better decisions for the health of the game than players.
 
Player input is important from a "fun" perspective, and Carbine has always been very transparent. But players don't have the information to experience to make calls about balance when they can't see the bigger picture.
 
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Just because you ask for something doesn't mean it's going to happen.  The devs are human beings like us.  The devs are also under a notoriously strict publisher (NCSoft) who DEMANDS Agile/Rally use in their studios, which often leads to big issues being pushed back or canceled for the sake of deadlines.  Agile doesn't work for playability or customer satisfaction, it pushes for deadlines.  That will more often than not cut much-sought-after content and fixes from major releases.  I bet right now the fixes and changes you'd be happiest with have been playing Release Milestone Shuffle for months now.
 
Source:  Working for an NCSoft studio.
 
 
 
 
Again, just because they have that access and have that info doesn't mean they have the greenlight to just make changes.  If you knew the sheer amount of work it took between "Hey, how about X change?" to "X change is live" you'd probably set your own eyelids on fire out of frustration.
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Thank you for the insight into the "behind the scenes" life as a Developer for NCSoft. What doesn't make sense to me is how during beta Carbine prided themselves on listening to and using the feedback they were given. As we are now further and further away from the release date of WildStar it seems that their "motto" so to speak is all but being reversed.
 
Why able to react and work with us then, but now it's a different story?
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Didn't they say in the stream, pretty directly, that though the launch is coming they're still working in itemization based on the feedback from the PTR forums?
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You see, I'm someone that can give first hand experience of the current (albeit small) arena meta. I've made videos and have a youtube channel of matches to watch. I can, at request, give intimate details of classes, etc and how they interact. More or less, I'm a wealth of knowledge that comes from time spent in a hobby.
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Thank you for the insight into the "behind the scenes" life as a Developer for NCSoft. What doesn't make sense to me is how during beta Carbine prided themselves on listening to and using the feedback they were given. As we are now further and further away from the release date of WildStar it seems that their "motto" so to speak is all but being reversed.
 
Why able to react and work with us then, but now it's a different story?
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Well, that's actually pretty easy.  In Alpha/Closed Beta/Open Beta, you have far fewer players than you ever will at Launch.  Hell, until Open Beta hits you directly control how many people are playing your game and providing feedback.  Launch opens the floodgates and now everyone and their brothers are giving feedback, and instead of focused groups doing focused play, everyone is everywhere and calling out the myriad issues that every MMO will have at Launch and far beyond.  It's unlikely the devs aren't listening.  It's far more likely that less people are being listened to on the virtue of there being TONS more people giving feedback.
 
 
 
As I said earlier, that system may have already been fixed internally, but not vetted for this build.  If Drop 4 is within the next 2-3 weeks, the "final" internal build was cut weeks ago.  The only things that will get fixed at this point are showstoppers (crashes, economy-destroyers, performance-destroyers, quest/zone blockers, major graphical glitches, map-outs ((which are falling through the map and dying)), and other massively-gameplay-disrupting bugs).  Is that ideal?  No.  Will the definition of 'showstopper' vary from dev to dev, and player to player?  Wildly.  All we can have is patience.  This kind of stuff isn't 100% in the hands of the people making the content; its distribution falls to the Production team and the Publisher's demands on deadlines.  Drop 4 is going to land when NC/Carbine Production demands it land, whether it's filled with all the things the dev teams feel necessary or not, AND whether all of its bug fixes are in or not.
 
I promise you that at least two of the hotfixed issues that come in each hotfix after Drop 4 have been fixed for weeks and didn't get vetted for the due date.
 
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This is deeply saddening.
 
How come feedback cannot be obtained earlier? Is that a person problem? Like, "I am trying to re-work itemization here, what does each class NEED?" Gather that data for a bit, talk to class leads, develop a real plan.
 
It seems this particular issue was attack with no forethought and no direction.
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My $0.02: I've seen tons more players returning and/or trying this game since drop 3. Is it hundreds or thousands? Well, I don't know. But I know that I made a baby toon, and I ran into 5 new people in the first area. I also know how many new/returning folks have joined our guild in the last few weeks. Almost universally, they are happy with the changes and things they've seen. They are having fun. We still regularly have 20+ people on in the evenings (raid days go up some), which is what we've almost always had on in our little guild.
 
I've checked out the itemization changes on the PTR. I've run the new shiphands and dungeon. I haven't had a chance to test raids - just not something I have the contacts for right now (or the desire to organize for my own guild). However, I like the large majority of what I've seen. A lot. I am so super excited for Drop 4! Could itemization be better? Yes. Is it as awful as a handful of folks are screaming about? I don't think so. Carbine seems dedicated to continuing to improve this game, though, even if I don't always agree with or like certain changes.
 
I guess my point is this: Many people are happy with the changes Carbine has made and continues to make. Listening means listening to everyone - not just those that are the loudest or use the brightest colors.	
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You don't actually know more than the Devs. Your feedback is appreciated like all of ours, but to suggest Carbine balance PvP by what you think, would be a terrible, terrible idea. You could always make your own game and see how successful that is if you're not happy with Wildstar
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Devs have metrics, I have first hand experience with multiple classes. Yes, there are a lot of things that I may not know. To say that the developers know everything that I know would be a tremendous overestimate.
 
This is why I stated it as clearly as I did. I think that the developers have a tremendous amount to learn from the players, especially the players that are as experienced as I am, and have been as successful as I have been in PvP. Please, consider a little more about the message being said, rather than your personal vendetta against me.
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This. Devs generally only see the dev side of the game, while we only see the player side. Both sides accumulate specialized knowlegde of the game they're surrounded by. Then, ideally, the two sides compare information and work on a reasonable middle ground. Remember, Evade, Carbine's motto is "The devs are listening." not "you don't know wtf your saying so player feedback doesn't matter."
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The vast majority of players are biased towards their own class or their own situation (PvE, PvP, Raiding, Casual) whether they mean to be or not.
 
The vast majority of players have no game development experience.
 
The vast majority of players have no idea how to make and keep a game balanced.
 
The vast majority of players think they're experts and think they're right, but they're not.
 
 
Carbine should LISTEN to players, but most of the time, they should take what most of them say with a grain of salt. Listening to whatever some guy with no Dev experience and a bias says just because he theorycrafts with his class is NOT HOW YOU BALANCE A GAME.
You balance a game by looking at RAW NUMBERS. I.E. If you know Engineers are underperforming in DPS, you look at all the numbers from all the Engineers from all the parts of the game, look at the specific places where they are not doing well, look at the skills and gear being used, and so on. You DO NOT go on the forums are do whatever the guy who claims to be the top theorycrafting Engineer says would "totally fix this class!".
 
You go on the forums and READ the posts and consider it, but numbers will always >>>>> people's biased opinions. First hand experience means almost absolutely nothing compared to a massive database of information gathered from every player in the server.
Statistics > Opinions. Raw Data > What people say. The same reason why so many people claim to have seen Bigfoot is why so many people also claim to know how to fix the game. People always think they're right. I'm no exception but at least I know it.	
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While statistics can help balance a game, you can't be looking at "all the numbers from all the Engineers from all the parts of the game" to attempt to balance them in PVP, or in PVE raiding, or soloing... these are all very different aspects of the game that require different levels of balance. I would hate to see devs balancing raid dps based on the data that includes players who don't even bother to ever open a browser to learn how to play their class, and just put random abilities on their bar thinking as long as they aren't dying, they're doing it right.
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			While statistics can help balance a game, you can't be looking at "all the numbers from all the Engineers from all the parts of the game" to attempt to balance them in PVP, or in PVE raiding, or soloing... these are all very different aspects of the game that require different levels of balance. I would hate to see devs balancing raid dps based on the data that includes players who don't even bother to ever open a browser to learn how to play their class, and just put random abilities on their bar thinking as long as they aren't dying, they're doing it right.	
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The devs are listening, but they're also human and can't immediately flip a switch to make changes. It takes time.
 
 
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			There are a few of you that are pretty much agreeing with each other, but you want your subtle nuance--changed by each of your word choices--to be the final say. Theory crafters generate a lot of raw data that can aid in the balancing of class X in situation Y and players will all continue to offer opinions on every issue and data. The game well never be perfectly balanced. No game ever is. Rather than getting upset about pushing rocks up hills, we should acknowledge that it's the same rock, it's been the same rock, and find joy in the Sisyphian nature of it. Sorry for breaking the fourth wall.	
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There's a whole lot of theorycrafting here that I don't really understand...
 
You say things like... the devs know better than me?  Like who?  You mean the guy who created the warrior and designed it?  Where is he?  Do you mean the guy who has been working on the warrior since launch?  Where is he?
 
Or do you mean Moja, the guy who is new to class lead, probably thanks to the restructuring that Carbine went through post launch, and is inheriting the class from another lead developer.  To say that he knows more about Warriors in PvP than I do?  No, that's undeniably false. You tell me this guy has spent as many hours as I have in PvP and I'll laugh in your face.  The best part, I never said the warrior wasn't overpowered and didn't need a nerf, I firmly agreed to what made it strong.  What I did say however, was that the changes intending to rebalance warrior actually made the issue worse, while subsequently pigeonholing the Warrior into the very role and ability that they're trying to get away from.
 
You're right, I'm not a game developer, but when you're looking for advice, you consider the guy who has the experience, not the new guy on the job.  That's why he was asking for our feedback in the first place.
 
Further, you're right, they can do metrics.  But here's the thing, metrics work when you actually have a population.  When the only people above 1500 in 2v2 arena is less than 30 people, it's pretty hard to say X class is overpowered.  You'd have to have an overwhelming majority (read medics) to even determine if that class needs a nerf-- by the numbers.  Instead we're in a situation where no one currently plays stalker at a high level, no one plays engineer at a high level in 2v2, yet you're telling me that you should automatically buff them because they're up there?  NOPE.  I'd wait until there were at least 100 people playing arena before I'd even comment on balance, much less pretend that those metrics mean anything.
 
So theoretically you guys are talking about things that might happen in a successful game with a large population.  This is not one of those games.  This is a game where the majority of top tier arena players know each other and have multiple classes at high level.  This is a game where you can count on one hand the people that know pvp intimately.  It's not like there are any secrets out there we're not sharing--- because we don't need them!  All we're asking is that the developers don't break their broken game even further by going down the wrong development pathways.
 
Please don't give me this "The devs know better, because they're devs" attitude.  They don't.  They've been released from their jobs, they're not paid as high as other companies, they're watching their higher profile developers and coworkers leave for greener pastures.  This isn't Blizzard, or Riot Games, where everyone is vying for a job.  Don't pretend for one second that these guys are the best of the best. They might be professionals, and they have potential to be great, but so far they haven't shown us this.  When they do, I'll defer to them, but instead I'll sit here for the entirety of Drop 3 while DPS medics rain hell on anything to do with PvP, my friends quit because of RNGslots, PvPers quit because the only way to compete in PvP is to get raid exclusive gear, we all play on one "megaserver," and we only have 1 raiding guild even capable of clearing the content.
 
It's laughable that you'd even approach me with the notion that the developers know better in this case.	
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There's a whole lot of theorycrafting here that I don't really understand...
 
You say things like... the devs know better than me?  Like who?  You mean the guy who created the warrior and designed it?  Where is he?  Do you mean the guy who has been working on the warrior since launch?  Where is he?
 
Or do you mean Moja, the guy who is new to class lead, probably thanks to the restructuring that Carbine went through post launch, and is inheriting the class from another lead developer.  To say that he knows more about Warriors in PvP than I do?  No, that's undeniably false. You tell me this guy has spent as many hours as I have in PvP and I'll laugh in your face.  The best part, I never said the warrior wasn't overpowered and didn't need a nerf, I firmly agreed to what made it strong.  What I did say however, was that the changes intending to rebalance warrior actually made the issue worse, while subsequently pigeonholing the Warrior into the very role and ability that they're trying to get away from.
 
You're right, I'm not a game developer, but when you're looking for advice, you consider the guy who has the experience, not the new guy on the job.  That's why he was asking for our feedback in the first place.
 
Further, you're right, they can do metrics.  But here's the thing, metrics work when you actually have a population.  When the only people above 1500 in 2v2 arena is less than 30 people, it's pretty hard to say X class is overpowered.  You'd have to have an overwhelming majority (read medics) to even determine if that class needs a nerf-- by the numbers.  Instead we're in a situation where no one currently plays stalker at a high level, no one plays engineer at a high level in 2v2, yet you're telling me that you should automatically buff them because they're up there?  NOPE.  I'd wait until there were at least 100 people playing arena before I'd even comment on balance, much less pretend that those metrics mean anything.
 
So theoretically you guys are talking about things that might happen in a successful game with a large population.  This is not one of those games.  This is a game where the majority of top tier arena players know each other and have multiple classes at high level.  This is a game where you can count on one hand the people that know pvp intimately.  It's not like there are any secrets out there we're not sharing--- because we don't need them!  All we're asking is that the developers don't break their broken game even further by going down the wrong development pathways.
 
Please don't give me this "The devs know better, because they're devs" attitude.  They don't.  They've been released from their jobs, they're not paid as high as other companies, they're watching their higher profile developers and coworkers leave for greener pastures.  This isn't Blizzard, or Riot Games, where everyone is vying for a job.  Don't pretend for one second that these guys are the best of the best. They might be professionals, and they have potential to be great, but so far they haven't shown us this.  When they do, I'll defer to them, but instead I'll sit here for the entirety of Drop 3 while DPS medics rain hell on anything to do with PvP, my friends quit because of RNGslots, PvPers quit because the only way to compete in PvP is to get raid exclusive gear, we all play on one "megaserver," and we only have 1 raiding guild even capable of clearing the content.
 
It's laughable that you'd even approach me with the notion that the developers know better in this case.
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....... wow.
 
Okay, first of all, this entire post is exactly why you are 100% unfit to make any game-changing decisions in any game ever.  If I have to explain to you why that is what it is, then you're beyond understanding it.
 
Second, why not put your money where your mouth is?  Here, let me help you:
http://ch.tbe.taleo.net/CH05/ats/careers/requisition.jsp?org=NCSOFT&cws=1&rid=1918
 
That's a link to an opening Carbine has for a Game Designer.  If you really truly know more than any dev on Carbine's team about PvP, then put up or shut up.  Apply for the job and get your changes into the game.  I'm not being facetious either; one of the PvP leads I worked with was a former arena champion.  If you really are that good, you should apply.
 
Third, if you're so good at this, I want you to detail out what you'd do to the Warrior class alone in terms of improving PVP while maintaining PVE balance.  When you're done I'll make a test pass for your changes and we'll see just how much work it'd take and if the balance changes would be feasible.  Then we can discuss whether or not these changes would adversely affect economy, game balance, and inter-class play.  Then we can submit it to Carbine and see just how well received it is.
 
If 'second' and 'third' sounds like insults, they're not.  You can sit here on the forums and say you're the high-and-mighty king of game knowledge (so much so that you're better than the professionals hired to work on the game), or you can prove it.
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I'm just gonna say this, Eclips.
 
For every time you see pictures or videos of devs shooting nerf guns there are hundreds of hours outside of that moment where they're glued to their screens, working their fingers off.  That 'hung over' look on the livestreams is probably due to that person spending the night at the studio to hit their deadlines.  Do you seriously -- and I want you to freaking answer this, because people making this mistake make my blood boil -- do do you seriously think that the entire company comes to a grinding halt when someone posts a vine, when someone starts a livestream, when someone takes a picture?  ArenaNet made a 10 second Harlem Shake video and their forums BLEW UP with how they weren't doing any work.  You're not in the studio, you don't know.
 
If you really know what's best, I won't question it any more.  I can't get through to you, you won't get through to me.  I've read too many posts that are just like yours to finally find some weight in one.
 
I suggest you spend time in a game studio before you make the calls you are, though.  You don't know what it's like, nor will you ever with your demeanor.
 
I can tell you this, though -- having worked in the industry for 4-5 years, "not being a nerf dart shooter" isn't the only reason you couldn't collaborate on a game.  Claiming you know best, saying you have all the answers, saying you're the most qualified -- that doesn't fly.  In these environments you work with your consituents on an equal footing and you listen to the people around you.  Not only that but you retain an intimate knowledge of the limitations of your workplace and product.  You do not know either of those things in relation to Wildstar unless you have an in at Carbine that you haven't mentioned before.
 
You go on with this rationale, man.  You be sure to let us all know how far you get with it.
 
Good night.	
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I'm just gonna say this, Eclips.
 
For every time you see pictures or videos of devs shooting nerf guns there are hundreds of hours outside of that moment where they're glued to their screens, working their fingers off.  That 'hung over' look on the livestreams is probably due to that person spending the night at the studio to hit their deadlines.  Do you seriously -- and I want you to freaking answer this, because people making this mistake make my blood boil -- do do you seriously think that the entire company comes to a grinding halt when someone posts a vine, when someone starts a livestream, when someone takes a picture?  ArenaNet made a 10 second Harlem Shake video and their forums BLEW UP with how they weren't doing any work.  You're not in the studio, you don't know.
 
If you really know what's best, I won't question it any more.  I can't get through to you, you won't get through to me.  I've read too many posts that are just like yours to finally find some weight in one.
 
I suggest you spend time in a game studio before you make the calls you are, though.  You don't know what it's like, nor will you ever with your demeanor.
 
I can tell you this, though -- having worked in the industry for 4-5 years, "not being a nerf dart shooter" isn't the only reason you couldn't collaborate on a game.  Claiming you know best, saying you have all the answers, saying you're the most qualified -- that doesn't fly.  In these environments you work with your consituents on an equal footing and you listen to the people around you.  Not only that but you retain an intimate knowledge of the limitations of your workplace and product.  You do not know either of those things in relation to Wildstar unless you have an in at Carbine that you haven't mentioned before.
 
You go on with this rationale, man.  You be sure to let us all know how far you get with it.
 
Good night.
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Please don't give me this "The devs know better, because they're devs" attitude.  They don't.  They've been released from their jobs, they're not paid as high as other companies, they're watching their higher profile developers and coworkers leave for greener pastures.  This isn't Blizzard, or Riot Games, where everyone is vying for a job.  Don't pretend for one second that these guys are the best of the best. They might be professionals, and they have potential to be great, but so far they haven't shown us this.  When they do, I'll defer to them, but instead I'll sit here for the entirety of Drop 3 while DPS medics rain hell on anything to do with PvP, my friends quit because of RNGslots, PvPers quit because the only way to compete in PvP is to get raid exclusive gear, we all play on one "megaserver," and we only have 1 raiding guild even capable of clearing the content.
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			People really quit over RNG slots? The word "petty" comes to mind...	
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People really quit over RNG slots? The word "petty" comes to mind...
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People really quit over RNG slots? The word "petty" comes to mind...
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In PVE* (Vic gave the PVP version)
 
It was more like, people spent hours and weeks getting gear only to find that the slots weren't optimized (since they were random) and the piece was essentially useless. It isn't fair to players to have them spend that much time and effort hoping against hope that their piece of gear will drop from a boss that takes a huge amount of effort to down, only to troll them with bad slots that make the piece effectively worthless.
 
That's prettymuch fixed with the fluxes, though it is expensive.
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{| class="blockquote"
People really quit over RNG slots? The word "petty" comes to mind...
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{| class="blockquote"
In PVE* (Vic gave the PVP version)
 
It was more like, people spent hours and weeks getting gear only to find that the slots weren't optimized (since they were random) and the piece was essentially useless. It isn't fair to players to have them spend that much time and effort hoping against hope that their piece of gear will drop from a boss that takes a huge amount of effort to down, only to troll them with bad slots that make the piece effectively worthless.
 
That's prettymuch fixed with the fluxes, though it is expensive.
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