125010-hey-carbine-im-over-it

== Content ==
			
So the last two weeks have been frustrating for me. I didn't like the promotion on its own merit (for reasons I've explained over and over again- whether you agree or understand, it's how I felt) and yes, I've been scared of those acronyms I dare not mention. It caused me to lose heart in developing my add on, and really struggled to log in for a few days.
 
But I'm over it.
 
Not everything is gonna make me happy or be done the way I want it to be. That's life, and this is still a great friggen computer game. And kudos for that. Big kudos for that.
 
While I've been spending time raging on the forums while waiting for compiles at work to finish, my wife has been quietly at home amassing plat with a new-found shiphand obsession. While I've been ruminating on how much I hate the fat cats, she's been excited about doing an 18 minute run in STL pug while being one of the top DPSers. And when the kids all get to sleep, she doesn't care about the payment model, or promotions, or whatever. She just wants to run a dungeon. Because they are so friggen fun. We spent a lot of time wiping on Drokk two nights ago, so she was super excited we got KV again as a random pop last night, with three of the same players. And with lower dps we cleared the dungeon, one-shotting Drokk (after an unfortunate wipe on Grond- LOL), proving that we learned and improved.
 
And my wife has helped me remember that at the end of the day, that's what this is about: it's a fun game. So, you know- do what you have to keep this stuff alive. Perhaps I've just been too invested in not losing this gem of game, but I really do think its amazing. Whatever it takes, just please don't take away stuff like dungeons and raids. They are incredible and are providing a great time for both my wife and I after the kids are asleep.
 
GA is one of the best things I've ever experienced in a computer game. So much so that I really get a thrill out of taking along new players who haven't seen it just to show them how great it is. And the reaction I get every time is just how amazed they are. It's funny, because last week we had a little bit of drama and so our raid didn't go as well as it had in the past. I could have been easy to get disheartened, but there was a new guy along who hadn't yet raided in this game, and in his eyes all he could say was just how much fun he had. And stepping back, he was completely right. Even when you hit a road bump, raiding in this game is better than most other leisure activities I can think of.
 
And on the other end of things, more veteran Shiphands. I can't say enough how good these things are. If you never make another daily zone and just put that effort toward more shiphands, I wouldn't complain. I see all kinds of people running these, and they are still engaging. I only regret that for so long I treated them as solo content- my wife has shown me the fun of queueing for them and hitting them with strangers.
 
And you know, I'm that guy who just can't get into housing. But I see people doing amazing stuff, and it strikes me that it is deep and better than a lot of other competing mmos in this area. And at the very least, housing is keeping my wife happy because she can sell all the decor she's been amassing :D
 
So I'm over it. I'm not gonna talk about the promotion any more. And while I want it to stay sub based without a cash shop, I'll live wherever it goes. Just let me keep the progression content and I'll be a happy camper. Because WS is a joy to play and ridiculously fun. Great job on this game, and I think it's only getting better with Drop 5 to come.	
----
			
Great post.
 
The game will soon be buy to play and with that, there will be a lot of fluff items offered similar to the promotional ones that will only be available for real life cash. It's something all of us fans of Subs will have to accept. As long as these items remain fluff and do not give an advantage this system will be bearable	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Great post.
 
The game will soon be buy to play and with that, there will be a lot of fluff items offered similar to the promotional ones that will only be available for real life cash. It's something all of us fans of Subs will have to accept. As long as these items remain fluff and do not give an advantage this system will be bearable
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Great post.
 
The game will soon be buy to play and with that, there will be a lot of fluff items offered similar to the promotional ones that will only be available for real life cash. It's something all of us fans of Subs will have to accept. As long as these items remain fluff and do not give an advantage this system will be bearable
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I hope not. EVE is doing fine and it's a sub based game. Can't see why Wildstar shouldn't.
----
			Massive respect Sly :)	
----
			I almost thought this was destined to be another salty complaint about something Carbine has done, but it ended up making me pretty dang happy. Good job :P	
----
			
It's good getting over stuff like this and stop holding grudges towards the company (Something people didn't quite comprehend w/ the exploit bans) but it hasn't changed my stance on cash shop items in a subscription based MMO. This incident was so close to cross the fine line between what's okay and what's not. 
 
What I'm afraid of is that Carbine & NCSoft interpretates this post as "It's okay to have cash shop items in our sub based game". But yeah, I'm mostly on the same boat as you Jeff. Carbine, please don't repeat this again unless the business model is changed. 	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
What I'm afraid of is that Carbine & NCSoft interpretates this post as "It's okay to have cash shop items in our sub based game".
----
			First response = instant F2P/B2P thread.....a new low, thanks for that Evade.	
----
			
Awesome post! Thank you for posting this Jeff. :)
 
I think we all go through moments like this in any game we play. When this happens to me, I ask people if they are having fun and what they like about the game. Seeing the game through a new players eyes is the best way to remind myself of all the fun the game has to offer to me.
 
I truly enjoy this game, especially housing. :wub: 	
----
			To be fair, I resigned that this would probably become that when I posted it. I'm practicing really hard not caring :p	
----
			Heh, I was totally stoked for housing when I started this game. I thought it would consume me. It probably would have if the dungeons hadn't taken me first.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You gotta teach me how D-:
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
To be fair, I resigned that this would probably become that when I posted it. I'm practicing really hard not caring :P
----
			There ya go. Now if we could just get people to understand that the Devs don't have much final say with what goes on at the end of the day. People "demanding" answers. If you're new I understand but as for the rest of us we should be used to the "silence." Remember when most servers were ghost towns, and day after day we'd see a new thread open up about an answer and no reply? Yeah. The Devs are listening but keep in mind, they usually don't spew out that kind of info. Get used to the silence as well and just keep voicing out your ideas and such.	
----
			I love this game and will be with it where ever we go. <3 Sub model all day or at least B2P with option sub. 	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Heh, I was totally stoked for housing when I started this game. I thought it would consume me. It probably would have if the dungeons hadn't taken me first.
----
			
Carbine is going B2P+optional sub and adding a cash shop:
 
"Cash shops suck because the devs will focus on the cash shop because they'll bring in more revenue that way, and they'll sell P2W items! Thanks Carbine!"
 
Carbine is staying P2P and adding a cash shop:
 
"Cash shops are great for the game because they bring in more revenue and they wouldn't sell P2W items. Besides, EVE, WoW and FFXIV have them, so why shouldn't WildStar? Thanks Carbine!"	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It's good getting over stuff like this and stop holding grudges towards the company (Something people didn't quite comprehend w/ the exploit bans) but it hasn't changed my stance on cash shop items in a subscription based MMO. This incident was so close to cross the fine line between what's okay and what's not. 
 
What I'm afraid of is that Carbine & NCSoft interpretates this post as "It's okay to have cash shop items in our sub based game". But yeah, I'm mostly on the same boat as you Jeff. Carbine, please don't repeat this again unless the business model is changed.
----
			
This post is about someone who realizes how great this game is, after having some issues about the promo and losing faith in Carbine.
 
This post is NOT about F2P/B2P/P2P! Keep those comments in those other posts, please.	
----
			Great post Sly. I was very much the same way the first couple of days... Then, in a discussion on stream, I came to the realization that I could really care less, because I'm having a hell of a lot of fun playing. If someone else wants to trot out and spend 100 bucks trying to get the mounts and whatnot, good for them. I'd still rather be able to purchase them outright.... (PLEASE CARBINE!!!!!) but it is what it is...	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I hope not. EVE is doing fine and it's a sub based game. Can't see why Wildstar shouldn't.
----
			Glad to hear you were able to realign your perspective, SlyJeff, back to focusing on the elements of the game that you enjoy.  It's never fun being upset about anything in my opinion.	
----
			
Not linking fatty cats! <_<
I do hope you like the kitty hoverboard at least :lol:	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Not linking fatty cats! <_<
I do hope you like the kitty hoverboard at least :lol:
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Nah, all the items from the gamble box are tainted for me. But that's a discussion I'm done with. :)
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
(I will not buy those pieces from the AH since they are greatly overpriced).
----
			
I like your new pic shackel! /OT
 
Anyway, I feel the same way Sly. I didn't feel really backstabbed so much... because I was so hyped up with kitties. I'm gullible for things like this, but it did mean I got enough sub to last me a while and for cheaper than the sub price itself...
 
As for other things (not even mentioning what they are because eughhh) I will continue to support carbine and wildstar as long as they don't sell out and go down the pay to win route. I stopped caring about other things a while ago.
Why? Because I love playing wildstar.
 
Last night I did Ultimate protogames AGAIN and we made another pvpholic in love with the pve here. Damn that dungeon is genius. Can't wait to see the raids.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I like your new pic shackel! /OT
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This is untrue.
 
I looked at the AH and the cheapest FULL marauder set you can get is 28~ plat, that's is basically the same price as one credd (jabbit EU)
 
one credd is 15 Euro, one box is 15 Euro. So greatly overpriced no, not compared to what the credd lies at.
----
			
Legs: 50g
Feet: 1p
Gloves: 2.5p
shoulder: 2.5p
head: 8p
chest: 10p
 
Total: 24.5p
 
This is right this moment on the AH	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This is untrue.
 
I looked at the AH and the cheapest FULL marauder set you can get is 28~ plat, that's is basically the same price as one credd (jabbit EU)
 
one credd is 15 Euro, one box is 15 Euro. So greatly overpriced no, not compared to what the credd lies at.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Don't forget that a person selling the Marauder set also gets 30 days of access out of it, whereas someone selling CREDD doesn't. That's probably why people think it's overpriced.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
why is it ok to sell fluff but not gear. your fluff is someone else's endgame. For a certain demographic the game is all about collecting fluff and thats is the important in game stuff, for another demographic its all about the gear and the gear is the important endgame stuff.
 
Why is it ok to lock one behind a cash shop but not the other?
 
I wouldn't mind if Carbine filled a cash shop with housing items, I don't do housing, wouldn't affect me at all but that is ultimately a selfish attitude. Why should your idea of content be free and available in game while some other guys idea of content is locked behind a cash shop
----
			Now you all know how I feel looking at the price of amp and ability point upgrades... My end game is being at max character power (aside from gear of course) which I can't do without going broke right now. My alternative is to just grind out the sources that I can and MAYBE buy a couple when it gets to be too much to bear.	
----
			
I really, really like this game.  Forget exclusivity.
 
It matters not.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Now you all know how I feel looking at the price of amp and ability point upgrades... My end game is being at max character power (aside from gear of course) which I can't do without going broke right now. My alternative is to just grind out the sources that I can and MAYBE buy a couple when it gets to be too much to bear.
----
			I will, thanks!	
----
			
Hear, hear. This is what I've been saying all along - the game is the game, and if players would just play it instead of analyzing and bitching about it, they'd have a ton of fun.
 
This, by the way, isn't exclusive to WildStar... players constantly make themselves miserable about games instead of just enjoying them.
 
I feel the games media also does a disservice to players, rarely ever focusing on content for FANS of the game, but always lofting opinions and articles on the business. It's hard to be a fan if you let that stuff influence you.
 
I actually feel sorry for players who just reduce every game down to a list of impossible expectations as they manifest in their own minds - they're never going to have fun again.	
----
			
I love WIldstar and played it since launch.  I agree that Wildstar is in a great place but if content updates continue at the pace they have been it will surely lose alot of its players who are raiding in GA/DS.  I dont want to run DS for another 4-5 months and you cant say the new Augmenters raid is a raid but a boss in a box.
 
Please give us the next raid tier Carbine.
 
or at least put something on the PTR for testing.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I love WIldstar and played it since launch.  I agree that Wildstar is in a great place but if content updates continue at the pace they have been it will surely lose alot of its players who are raiding in GA/DS.  I dont want to run DS for another 4-5 months and you cant say the new Augmenters raid is a raid but a boss in a box.
 
Please give us the next raid tier Carbine.
 
or at least put something on the PTR for testing.
----
			
Redmoon Terror raid, while not coming in Drop 5, will probably be coming in Drop 6. I'd assume it's post-DS raid tier. There's plenty of datamining done on it, including the weapon models which for the life of me I can't find anymore.
 
I'm sure we'll hear more of it after Drop 5 hits.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Anyways at the end of the day there is plenty of great costume material in the game already (although WHAT is UP with the armor looks from DS... they are simply not cool).
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Back in TOR we used to try to guess how much mind altering substances the end-game art team had consumed when working on the sets.  Fan Hat anybody?  The consensus speculation was that they were addicted to adding stupid bits and bobs because that's what WoW does.
 
There are end-game sets here that actually look good but there's still the occasional peyote inspired piece here and there.
----
			Logged in to the forums just so I could "Like" the original post.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I hope not. EVE is doing fine and it's a sub based game. Can't see why Wildstar shouldn't.
----
			good post bro. I still hate the promotion if you can even call having your existing players buy your game again a promotion. 	
----
			
Awesome post!
 
I've raided in so many mmo's for countless hours over the years and the raiding in WS is by far the most fun ive experienced.
 
The Vet dungeons are awesome.  No matter how many times I run STL or SK or KV, its always fun. I am infatuated with the vocals of Blade-Wind the Invoker.  Whoever wrote the script and did the vocal work for that part deserves some serious praise.  Great frickin job.  and on Stormtalon, "Whitness the birth of a God!"  gets me every time.  Love it.
 
Killing sh*t in WS is just fun in general.  Its the combat system that makes this game, no doubt about it. 	
----
			
So true. When the promotion came out, I honestly didn't care because of RP/Housing/Shiphands. Your post makes me want to do raiding now though...
 
That SSM bronze just... seems so impossible at the moment. :(	
----
			I was also over the box promotion thing really fast, at first I thought it was an unfair slap in the face, now I think it is a decent deal and a smart marketing move.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
That SSM bronze just... seems so impossible at the moment. :(
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
If you are exile/entity, I can make it happen.
 
If not, well, wish I could help. SSM bronze really isn't too difficult, but it is LONG, especially the first time. If you find some experienced players, though, you should be able to get it done.
 
Raiding is completely worth it- I promise!
----
			
I envy your ability to discard stress, I really do.
But I, personally, think getting over it is damaging to the weight of one's displeasure and will lessen the value of future protests and requests, and that it's a sure victory for those whose jobs it is to needlessly manipulate consumers, because this is how they get away with lowering consumers' standards for quality service.
 
I don't want to hate wildstar, and I don't want to hate the people who made/make it so great.
I hope my faith in this studio isn't misplaced (and I'm really making an effort to sustain this faith, as I have definitely been burned before).
I hope there was or will be a sit down, and email, *cupcake*, even a sticky note, on how to better present the game and its studio through promotions and advertising.
I hope they were reminded that games are made to be fun, and not to balance out how many people you've snubbed and pissed off vs how many people they can get to pay them at any instant.
And I hope that I can find someone to trade their extra fat *cupcake*off cat mount for my extra glitter kitty hoverboard. jfc, being a collector sucks.
 
Carbine has been good and considerate since they've shown their face, and this is their first real *cupcake*up for me, and really they should be allowed a few.
But I'm still worried.
I may learn to forgive
But I will never ever forget.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Great post.
 
The game will soon be buy to play and with that, there will be a lot of fluff items offered similar to the promotional ones that will only be available for real life cash. It's something all of us fans of Subs will have to accept. As long as these items remain fluff and do not give an advantage this system will be bearable
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Because EVE has its own niche, and Wildstar is one of the millions MMORPG. What else is sub based on this market? WoW. Well, they made token, now it's technically b2p. Rest is f2p now, so Wildstar should be waaaaaay ahead its competitors.
 
Also, lack of advertisement for Wildstar makes me sad panda.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
For me, the deterioration of the genre to a candy crush style cash grab market is destroying the soul of what a MMO is. The over saturation of these candy crush MMOs makes the genres community toxic and entitled.
What people always fail to realise is that when a game is F2P the developers devolve from content creation to revenue creation and their sole purpose is to try and squeeze the last cent out of you to pay the bills. They lock the desired content behind their shops, release mediocre content to keep you around and that content has hooks to the shop to make you spend more. The worst part is people end up spending more then if it was sub based and brandish this as real content.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It would be nice with a 50% increase or double the current population, but I don't think the sub is the factor here. And Wildstar does have its own niche. It's a sublime MMO with a fantastic gameplay that is dynamic and player involving. It should easily be able to sustain itself as a sub-based game biding its time.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
For me, the deterioration of the genre to a candy crush style cash grab market is destroying the soul of what a MMO is. The over saturation of these candy crush MMOs makes the genres community toxic and entitled.
What people always fail to realise is that when a game is F2P the developers devolve from content creation to revenue creation and their sole purpose is to try and squeeze the last cent out of you to pay the bills. They lock the desired content behind their shops, release mediocre content to keep you around and that content has hooks to the shop to make you spend more. The worst part is people end up spending more then if it was sub based and brandish this as real content.
 
The community devolve from somewhat mature and responsible, to a feeding frenzy if immaturity and irresponsible behaviour. I've seen it now over the last 8 years and over 10 games. Its like a cancer that you can't stop because the body thinks it wants it, but the immune system can't fight it. People eventually realise this, but then its too late and they are either too invested or move onto the next thing and do it again.
The community also has this massive issue with king of the hill syndrome, where only 1 MMO can exist at the top and everything that doesn't hit WoW level of players is a failure, then they continue to perpetuate this opinion until the game dies and then relish in its death. Not realising that as each game dies the market becomes more dangerous for future development and that games can change, there has never been a MMO in history to release bug free, so by the nature of MMOs and their complexity they'll always be buggy.
 
The games become a pick up and drop mess of random people coming back in content binges and disappearing just as fast, leaving the committed without a player base.
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I'm sorry but this is just wrong for so many reasons. First of all, all MMOs are revenue focused. This doesn't matter if they are B2P, F2P, or Subbed. It just doesn't If they can find a way to take more money from you they will.
----
			
Somebody please point me to the golden age of gaming when it WASN'T about the money.
 
Oh that's right. It was always people selling things to other people. How dare they.	
----
			
Dunno watcha on about OP. The promo is fab.
Otherwise good bedtime story dude.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
That isn't true for Sub based MMO's as they generally get a set amount of revenue a month with a reasonably predictable fluctuation. Predictability removes the element of guess work, businesses and investors hate guessing (For the most part). If you offer an investor a reliable revenue stream, they'll be more likely to invest as they can see a return.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Well, the predictions for WildStar have been pretty dire, and they've had to cut staff, yet they're still continuing to develop new content. So how much money do they need to continue to make content?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This is the million dollar question. Hopefully with the returning players and new players that seem to be flooding back it'll provide a equilibrium.
 
 
They would start having to create fluff to sell on that market, they'd have to develop the cash shop, which is time away from creating content. Content created post B2P/F2P will have to be primarily based around generating revenue as the sub numbers would plummet.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
 
That's not what I'm saying. My point is that every P2P game that changed business models did so because the P2P model didn't bring in enough money for that game to keep that business model, so you can't compare what the content would have looked like if it stayed P2P, because staying P2P wasn't an option.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
That's not true, they have just found they could earn more money if they add a cash shop. Keep in mind a compagny never bring in enough money. Wow didn't have any money problems when Blizzard added its Cash shop (Pets and mounts)
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Snip
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Are you seriously telling me that B2P/F2P can achieve the same level of content creation and polish as a consistent revenue stream where all developers are making content for everyone? As opposed to the people allocated to develop REAL content and not that fluffy crap?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Aion, they have released more content then most of the p2p except maybe Final Fantasy and Aion is fully free to play.
 
Like you said other media, can you name me an MMO that successfully launched a P2P franchise, the last 5 years?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
All this content you've claimed and barely any mention of it? Also how quickly can this content be consumed? Couple of hours? If this is what you consider to be content then i feel bad for you. Real content takes 10+ hours, large zones, meaningful story and quests.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Point me to WS content that is better.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Like you said other media, can you name me an MMO that successfully launched a P2P franchise, the last 5 years?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
always be invested in it.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Drop 1 and 3.
 
 
Maybe in your circle, but my guild and circle there is constantly people doing dungeons, shiphands and so on.
 
 
Now your just bitter and complaining. Maybe it would be a good idea for you to take a step back and reconsider why you are playing this game. You seem to hate everything about it.
 
Warplots i don't know anything about. Haven't took part in them yet.
 
Raids are always buggy, Christ SWTOR's first raid was so bugged people couldn't complete it for over 6 months.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I made a really long post but Chrome decided to eat it.
 
We could go around and around in circles for hours countering each others argument. Lets stop and just agree to disagree.
 
I want P2P and you clearly want B2P/F2P, neither of us will be persuaded the other way.
 
 :)
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
And this is EXACTLY what F2P/B2P players don't understand.
 
If you have a player base that isn't invested/committed, you may as well be dead. Because no one cares.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
There is a difference between being committed because you have spend time in a game and liking the game.
Then being committed because you have spend over $200 in it.
 
That's why I think b2p or f2p have it harder because they need to keep the players mostly invested/committed based on the game itself.
So in that sense they need to deliver a better game to keep players in their game and in the end spend money.
And you know what the best thing is, if the player don't find it justified to spend that amount on something then they don't in P2P you are forced to pay or else you can not play the game at all and lose everything.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
There is a difference between being committed because you have spend time in a game and liking the game.
Then being committed because you have spend over $200 in it.
 
That's why I think b2p or f2p have it harder because they need to keep the players mostly invested/committed based on the game itself.
So in that sense they need to deliver a better game to keep players in their game and in the end spend money.
And you know what the best thing is, if the player don't find it justified to spend that amount on something then they don't in P2P you are forced to pay or else you can not play the game at all and lose everything.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
Message to OP:  Sorry your thread turned in to yet another F2P/B2P vs. Sub thread.
----
			
Vic i think you don"t get the point or you are suing so many words to carry your word across that it got lost somewhere.
Or i simply am on able to get the point, so sorry for not replying to you.
 
 
{| class="blockquote"
Not at all.  F2P/B2P studios have to make content that the player wants to buy, not content that the player wants to play.  A studio who needs cash shop profit to survive won't make stuff that falls into the realm of playability; they'll make stuff like infinite harvesting tools or over-expensive weapon skins, or gamble boxes that need hundreds of dollars invested before they make a return.  They make fluff.  They make filler.  They make padding.  Then they make a game expansion that ACTUALLY releases content that's pertinent to the game itself and not just the player's inventory.
 
Message to OP:  Sorry your thread turned in to yet another F2P/B2P vs. Sub thread.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Message to OP:  Sorry your thread turned in to yet another F2P/B2P vs. Sub thread.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
F2P/B2P needs to do that yes but often you as a player have the choice to not buy them if you don't find it worth it so you can make your money speak which can be quite effective.
Beside all that you didn't go into the point that those games are easy to get into but also easy to get out from, so not only need they to make content they can sell but they also need content to keep players playing the game because with no player base all the fluff and extra's from the cash shop becomes less valuable for the player.
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
In case no one else noticed, this is how ALL threads (except Coffee) eventually end up these days.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I made a really long post but Chrome decided to eat it.
 
We could go around and around in circles for hours countering each others argument. Lets stop and just agree to disagree.
 
I want P2P and you clearly want B2P/F2P, neither of us will be persuaded the other way.
 
 :)
----
			Vic will you invest money into something you don't like?	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I never said I wanted B2P/F2P. I'm saying B2P+optional sub is a good move for MMOs that can't keep going with a P2P model.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
After spending some time thinking, if/when the game goes B2P, if they offer a sub, i'd expect as a subscriber to have 100% access to all the items on the cash shop. That to me would be perfectly fine.
 
After all, subscriptions are there to allow everyone equal access to the content. I don't want to pay a sub and then have to pay for the fluff off the cash shop on top.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
After spending some time thinking, if/when the game goes B2P, if they offer a sub, i'd expect as a subscriber to have 100% access to all the items on the cash shop. That to me would be perfectly fine.
 
After all, subscriptions are there to allow everyone equal access to the content. I don't want to pay a sub and then have to pay for the fluff off the cash shop on top.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Most don't go that far.
I've seen models where you get cash shop currency (not enough to buy everything in 1 go but you can save up and keep up with new items) or the subscription is more service based.
 
Other alternative is just to spend $15 each month on cash shop money ;)
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Neither of those option will ever be enough to get access to everything - at least not based on the F2P games I have experienced.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Maybe not but that is the most fair option.
Or else i can take subscription for 1 month, take everything from the cash shop and do the same thing again over 6 months ;)
 
Anyway for those $15 you should be able to buy a lot at least but in my experience it's more then enough to keep up with new releases in the games I play.
----