107609-unintended-consequences-of-myopic-balancing

== Content ==
			
In this game, class balance via nerfing is a mistake. Players are already complaining about the raids and vet dungeons being too hard and many are using their wallets to show how dissatisfied they are. How much worse do you think it will be if you nerf warriors, engineers and stalkers (by nerfing stances) and thereby lower raid dps significantly? 
 
I don't think raid dps is an issue. Players are not complaining about clearing content too fast. In fact, if anything, raid dps is probably too low right now. 
 
So, if you buff the lagging classes, instead of nerfing the frontrunners, you have a chance to make everyone happy and to kill 2 birds with one stone (help the class; help the raid = happy player; happy guild). This is how it should be done. 
 
Nerfing any dps, given the current state of the game and community, would be a mistake at best.	
----
			
What they actually need to do more than anything nerf/buff related is separate PvP and PvE balancing.
 
It never works.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
In this game, class balance via nerfing is a mistake. Players are already complaining about the raids and vet dungeons being too hard and many are using their wallets to show how dissatisfied they are. How much worse do you think it will be if you nerf warriors, engineers and stalkers (by nerfing stances) and thereby lower raid dps significantly?
 
I don't think raid dps is an issue. Players are not complaining about clearing content too fast. In fact, if anything, raid dps is probably too low right now.
 
So, if you buff the lagging classes, instead of nerfing the frontrunners, you have a chance to make everyone happy and to kill 2 birds with one stone (help the class; help the raid = happy player; happy guild). This is how it should be done.
 
Nerfing any dps, given the current state of the game and community, would be a mistake at best.
----
			
Oh, regarding PvP, balance is never possible once you have PvP specific gear that has to be earned. Most of the complaints are from people without PvP gear who encounter someone with full PvP gear.
 
I am talking long term game impact. Making the raids, vet dungeons and attunement harder will kill this game. PvP is not good enough to carry it.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Oh, regarding PvP, balance is never possible once you have PvP specific gear that has to be earned. Most of the complaints are from people without PvP gear who encounter someone with full PvP gear.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I am talking long term game impact. Making the raids, vet dungeons and attunement harder will kill this game. PvP is not good enough to carry it.
----
			The Devs aren't listening.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
or just someone that knows numbers and their class. combine that with specific gear that they work to get, and suddenly "ZOMG!!! OP OP OP NERF THE cupcakes!!!"
 
which in many cases could simply be fixed by learning how to play their class and putting the work in to get the gear. (you know, the whole "skill" thing that so many talk about)
 
I am not saying pvp isnt broken, I wouldnt know, dont touch the thing. but am truly tired of nerf after nerf to pve because of pvp "balances"
----
			
Have full blue pvp gear, runed up too....I got smacked by a SS for 18k. That didn't kill me, btw...the back to back double 11k stabs from a stalker did. Yay!
 
And I heal for 4k crits that take 2 secs to cast....hum.
 
W/e. Separate PvP and PvE entirely.
 
GW2 did this with sPvP and by golly it works well. Heck, WvWvW balance is good too!
 
Some devs try, others don't?	
----
			
Seperation is the best method really. Complete seperation is ideal, but there are ways of speration without completely doing it to a point you need 2 teams.
 
In Champions Online for example certain skills had different effects dpending on the target you used that skill on, in some cases it was lower damage or there was less frequency of a ticks from a Dot, etc...on a player While in that same spell it would do enormous amounts of damage in PvE, but it wouldn't be considered overpowered in that context.
 
GW2 normalizes gear and attributes for everyone regardless of level when they enter sPvP. However the difference is that GW2 has only instanced PvP with closest thing to what Wildstar has outside of instanced PvP being World vs World(which we all know can be a giant sometimes fun zergfest)
 
So the former option of adding secondary dependency on the target type may be best way to go...	
----
			 I would go as far as to say I think their should be a duel class system one class pvp one class pve.. when you make a toon u decide on your pve and pvp class.. each one is leveled separately and can only use the gear in the appropriate content...now that would be separation.. devs could do what ever they wanted to one setup without it ever touching the other.. as far as world pvp would go well thats just a pve enviroment and pvpers would just have to live with the imbalances there.. cuz the devs wouldnt balance for ganking.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Seperation is the best method really. Complete seperation is ideal, but there are ways of speration without completely doing it to a point you need 2 teams.
 
In Champions Online for example certain skills had different effects dpending on the target you used that skill on, in some cases it was lower damage or there was less frequency of a ticks from a Dot, etc...on a player While in that same spell it would do enormous amounts of damage in PvE, but it wouldn't be considered overpowered in that context.
 
GW2 normalizes gear and attributes for everyone regardless of level when they enter sPvP. However the difference is that GW2 has only instanced PvP with closest thing to what Wildstar has outside of instanced PvP being World vs World(which we all know can be a giant sometimes fun zergfest)
 
So the former option of adding secondary dependency on the target type may be best way to go...
----
			Can't separate PvE and PvP as long as there is open world PvP. If you choose to go Guildwars route it precludes world pvp completely by making it instanced competition. Not saying it's bad or good, but it's an entirely different gaming philosophy. It works better from the balancing point of view, but it eliminates from the equation a sizable group of players who love open world pvp.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Can't separate PvE and PvP as long as there is open world PvP. If you choose to go Guildwars route it precludes world pvp completely by making it instanced competition. Not saying it's bad or good, but it's an entirely different gaming philosophy. It works better from the balancing point of view, but it eliminates from the equation a sizable group of players who love open world pvp.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You can separate the balancing of skills between PvE and PvP by having different effects (damage, CC time, whatever) depending on if the target is a PC or NPC.
----
			
Uh what gear difference in GW2 WvWvW.
 
Only one is with players under the level cap but they do get scaled up.
 
I mean you can pretty much buy a full set of epic gear + rune it upon hitting the level cap in GW2....should have more than enough gold to afford that.
 
There is that ascended stuff but the difference is hardly noticeable...	
----
			They already have PvP stats. It would be easy enough to lower damage in PvP by that alone.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You can separate the balancing of skills between PvE and PvP by having different effects (damage, CC time, whatever) depending on if the target is a PC or NPC.
----
			
You call it myopic because you don't like it, but myopic means short-sighted, and I don't think these changes are short sighted.
 
The nerfs that you're talking about are probably what they've mentioned about Stalkers/Warriors/Engineers.  The problem with those classes aren't that they're too strong.  The problem with those classes is that they scale too well off AP.
 
They aren't looking to directly nerf those classes, but there's a persistent balance issue there.  That issue is that AP is far better than their primary stat because of the way they decided to apply the stance bonuses.  This means that for someone like an Esper, something with 10 Moxie is on the same order as 10 AP.  On the other hand, for a warrior, 10AP is significantly better than 10 Brutality. 
 
This has all sorts of consequences in itemization.  It means anything that gives an AP boost, or any runes that give AP, or any raid effects that modify AP have their effects amplified for tanks versus other classes.
 
What they're looking to do is to correct that so that AP and Brutality are more in line for someone like a warrior.  So yeah, they're going to reduce the bonus from stances, but they're going to increase contribution from primary stats.  This is likely going to result in a damage reduction, but more on the order of having them fall into line with the other classes.  It's also going to do some good things like make stat food more effective, make primary stats on gear more effective, give more options for runes, etc.
 
In all, the best long-term decision is to fix this problem. It's short sighted to ignore it. It's painful to fix it right now though.  But the reason they're doing it isn't to nerf damage. The reason they're doing it to fix a systemic error. They are fixing the AP dominance for 3 classes in particular, which, along with increasing their damage, affects how they value many different things across the game.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
I mean you can pretty much buy a full set of epic gear + rune it upon hitting the level cap in GW2....should have more than enough gold to afford that.
 
----
			
I am just going to say this, and it is going to sound harsh..
 
How is it even possible that a new MMO is released without separate PVE/PVP skill sets? Or at least, a system that allows a single skillset to exist in two separate capacities; pvp/pve. As much as I love this game, and I do, I really do, I am constantly perplexed by some of the dev choices.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
In this game, class balance via nerfing is a mistake. Players are already complaining about the raids and vet dungeons being too hard and many are using their wallets to show how dissatisfied they are. How much worse do you think it will be if you nerf warriors, engineers and stalkers (by nerfing stances) and thereby lower raid dps significantly?
 
I don't think raid dps is an issue. Players are not complaining about clearing content too fast. In fact, if anything, raid dps is probably too low right now.
 
So, if you buff the lagging classes, instead of nerfing the frontrunners, you have a chance to make everyone happy and to kill 2 birds with one stone (help the class; help the raid = happy player; happy guild). This is how it should be done.
 
Nerfing any dps, given the current state of the game and community, would be a mistake at best.
----
			It was advertised as a hard game after all...In other games people are crying that raiding is too easy, here people are crying that it's too hard. fml.	
----
			One thing that everyone needs to remember - this is effectively a brand new game. Time will allow the devs to fine tune the game to a level that they're at...HOWEVERCatering to casuals will ruin this game. Catering ONLY to the hardcore raiders - will definitely cause issues for the growing customer base, but will still have them coming in.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Catering to casuals will ruin this game.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I am just going to say this, and it is going to sound harsh..
 
How is it even possible that a new MMO is released without separate PVE/PVP skill sets? Or at least, a system that allows a single skillset to exist in two separate capacities; pvp/pve. As much as I love this game, and I do, I really do, I am constantly perplexed by some of the dev choices.
----