121630-is-renown-farming-an-exploit

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			Does Carbine consider renown farming an exploit. Players are making 70K+ renown per hour. 	
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If its more than they intended they'll adjust.  The thing is, renown doesn't break economies like gold farming exploits do.
 
Changed my vote. Here's why.	
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			"Clever use of game mechanics"	
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If its more than they intended they'll adjust.  The thing is, renown doesn't break economies like gold farming exploits do.
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in D4 u be able to buy a lot of stuff u can sell or salvage, even now u able to buy farm bags and gear for salvage.
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			Report any/all you can. Let carbine decide if it's an exploit or not.	
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			who cares, renown is a reward for for doing things  in a group, looks like it is working as intendedalso, can you imagine the logistics involved in getting 40 people to group up and play together?	
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who cares, renown is a reward for for doing things  in a group, looks like it is working as intended
 
 
 
also, can you imagine the logistics involved in getting 40 people to group up and play together?
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It simply requires you to BE in a group. One could say that the R12 rep grinding was fine and dandy too, but they patched that within a couple days. Clearly not working as intended.
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yes this will hurt the economy. Be able to buy AMP points and Ability points (i think) come drop 4. 
 
Also,
 
I think if you can /follow and go AFK, at the best it's a cheesy mechanic.
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AFAIN the amp + ability upgrade are single use and soulbound.
 
I see no problem if people can/want to grind for something. This takes time also, and renown for group-play is a buildin mechanic by Carbine.
 	
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			group play is an exploit	
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I think 4,500 renown for an hour of STL runs is around the amount of renown Carbine intended...not the 70K-100K the renown the farm gets per hour, and that's just a NW circle. Has anyone tested the amount of renown a 40 man group will get at the golden circle in Blighthaven, repeatedly killing the infinite respawn Gilded Arch Guardian and nearby mobs. What about the 5 man content in Blighthaven Nursery or 5 man content in Defile....now sure if more difficult mobs give more renown.
 
I just think the opportunity is there for significant damage to be be done to the economy.....not to mention cheesing to get your AMP/Ability point, housing stuff, hoverboards, etc...
 
I hope I'm wrong	
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			Seems like you WANT it to be an exploit.....	
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Has anyone that is against this ever taken your level 50 toon into a low level dungeon and not rallied in order to farm modules? People (myself included) are farming those in ways Carbine didn't intend. Some people keep them for personal use, and others are dumping them into the AH and making money and "tinkering" with the economy.
 
 That is the same principle. You are using what the designers gave us, admittedly in an unexpected way. 
 
Also i am pretty sure everything you buy with renown is soulbound.	
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I think 4,500 renown for an hour of STL runs is around the amount of renown Carbine intended...not the 70K-100K the renown the farm gets per hour, and that's just a NW circle. Has anyone tested the amount of renown a 40 man group will get at the golden circle in Blighthaven, repeatedly killing the infinite respawn Gilded Arch Guardian and nearby mobs. What about the 5 man content in Blighthaven Nursery or 5 man content in Defile....now sure if more difficult mobs give more renown.
 
I just think the opportunity is there for significant damage to be be done to the economy.....not to mention cheesing to get your AMP/Ability point, housing stuff, hoverboards, etc...
 
I hope I'm wrong
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Has anyone that is against this ever taken your level 50 toon into a low level dungeon and not rallied in order to farm modules? People (myself included) are farming those in ways Carbine didn't intend. Some people keep them for personal use, and others are dumping them into the AH and making money and "tinkering" with the economy.
 
That is the same principle. You are using what the designers gave us, admittedly in an unexpected way.
 
Also i am pretty sure everything you buy with renown is soulbound.
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that was an exploit messing with how a mob respawns.... not even comparable
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  One person killing everything and 39 on follow AFK is...because you aren't controlling the character.
 
That's why people have been sanctioned previously for automating gameplay.
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So using the /follow command is an exploit?
The people worried about this are most likely the ones who want to control the economy. I'm sure i wont mind if those eldan signs and rune fragments are gonna be a lot cheaper because people flood the market with them. God forbid you could reroll a runeslot for only 1p right?...
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Let me just assume that grouping up and killing mobs in an mmo is not an exploit :)
If some people are afk and not pulling their weight, let the group leader worry about that.	
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its not a exploit, its a bug.
if this was intended u would earn the same amount(or more) in dungeons and raids.	
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Let me just assume that grouping up and killing mobs in an mmo is not an exploit :)
If some people are afk and not pulling their weight, let the group leader worry about that.
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So using the /follow command is an exploit?
The people worried about this are most likely the ones who want to control the economy. I'm sure i wont mind if those eldan signs and rune fragments are gonna be a lot cheaper because people flood the market with them. God forbid you could reroll a runeslot for only 1p right?...
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This is not an exploit. It's simply farming. Renown is given out specifically for doing anything while grouped up, so grouping up and killing things for renown couldn't even be considered an exploit... it's exactly how Carbine intended it; "I need renown? Guess I better go play with other people..."
 
How do you think this would ruin the economy? Tradeskill mats are already dirt cheap, AMP/Ability will be one time use/soulbound so you won't see any of those on the CX, mounts and flairs are also soulbound and won't be flooding the AH, maybe we see a reasonable drop in price for the extra fare dyes but hardly an economy killer.
 
BTW Charge, you do get massive renown gains from GA/DS. It's just not as high as the farming grouos because in raid you kill a boss then start moving to the next, while farming you kill anything in sight, making the renown gain much more constant rather than large spurts at bosses.	
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This is clearly a scaling bug, we ran 13 ppl in raid and got 108 renown (each) from a normal lvl 50 mob.
 
it makes sense u would gain this amount from a elite mob which takes a while to kill, but normal mobs which die instant(even if u run solo)does not.
 
This scaling combined with the quick respawn rate in daily areas, results in 1000+ renown pr minute, which in my ears is way to much for barely lifting u fingers.	
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			This thread is great. 9/10. Anyone wanna bet who the first one to legit start raging is? 	
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This is clearly a scaling bug, we ran 13 ppl in raid and got 108 renown (each) from a normal lvl 50 mob.
 
it makes sense u would gain this amount from a elite mob which takes a while to kill, but normal mobs which die instant(even if u run solo)does not.
 
This scaling combined with the quick respawn rate in daily areas, results in 1000+ renown pr minute, which in my ears is way to much for barely lifting u fingers.
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From what I noticed, I was getting 22, 61, 9?, and 13?, from the mobs.  The 13? was when we killed that elite commander mob, and to guess for the rest: 22 from those little mobs in the groups of 3, 61 from the mobs in groups of 2, and 9? from the single patting mob/lieutenant.
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			It's Renown, people. You can't break the game with renown; there's not enough significant purchasable items, even with the Drop 4 implementation. IMO this is less of an exploit and more of a giant waste of time. I've purchased everything I want from renown and I'm still sitting on over 2 mil; and I've never once farmed specifically for renown. When Drop 4 hits, I'm gonna get some dyes, mounts, maybe a couple other nifty things that have zero impact on how the game is played. What's the issue here?	
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It's Renown, people. You can't break the game with renown; there's not enough significant purchasable items, even with the Drop 4 implementation. IMO this is less of an exploit and more of a giant waste of time. I've purchased everything I want from renown and I'm still sitting on over 2 mil; and I've never once farmed specifically for renown. When Drop 4 hits, I'm gonna get some dyes, mounts, maybe a couple other nifty things that have zero impact on how the game is played. What's the issue here?
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its bugged and:
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I think most of the people that were doing it were doing it for amps/ability points.
 
I say its questionable but don't think its a bannable offense. If you're actually at your keyboard and doing stuff I think its fine BUT if you're just afk in the train then I take that is an actually offense. Anyway just my 2 cent
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well if u can gain renown(exp,gold,loot etc.) with AFK status, that will need to be fixed,
not that its hard to have a anti afk script/app running, but a least u can punish ppl doing that with good conscience.	
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 :ph34r: What if I had one of my kids behind the wheel(so to speek)  :lol:
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well if u can gain renown(exp,gold,loot etc.) with AFK status, that will need to be fixed,
not that its hard to have a anti afk script/app running, but a least u can punish ppl doing that with good conscience.
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God forbid we reward players for grouping up and killing things together like a normal MMO
 
People finally do something that's reminiscent of old mmo's like Carbine thought everyone would like and suddenly everyone's upset.	
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Reward ppl for going afk and let 1 guy do it all?
Atm im farming renown and typing this post at the same time, with 1 screen, do i deserve a reward for not playing ?
Can i join a bg and go afk while still earning prestige?
 
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God forbid we reward players for grouping up and killing things together like a normal MMO
 
People finally do something that's reminiscent of old mmo's like Carbine thought everyone would like and suddenly everyone's upset.
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Reward ppl for going afk and let 1 guy do it all?
Atm im farming renown and typing this post at the same time, with 1 screen, do i deserve a reward for not playing ?
Can i join a bg and go afk while still earning prestige?
 
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How do you think this would ruin the economy?
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There were enough people in the train/watching the train that people zoning into Northern Wastes without being in the raid group had a new instance, so questing really wasn't disrupted at all.
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Bug:
 
1. Something working as designed but used differently (but still functioning exactly as designed). Eg normal farming for mods.
2. Something not working as designed but causing an issue that can't be used to for gain/harm. Eg the stupid LAS bug where you have to reequip your gadget.
3. Serious bugs like the WB 360 that could be used to troll and stack damage numbers, but since it affected every SS and was caused directly by CS it wasn't an exploit.
 
Exploit: 
 
1. A player intentionally using something not working as designed via specific steps (often very specific sequence of steps) for great personal gain/harm to others. Eg the huge plat exploit.
 
Renown farming is not an exploit. CS will patch it if they feel it's too much, but nobody is going to get in trouble.	
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Can't crafting bags be purchased with renown. The items from the bags can be sold.
 
Gear can be purchased from the renown vendor. This gear can then be salvaged. The salvaged signs and rune fragments can then be sold on the CX. 
 
Dyes from bags can be sold.
 
Easy access to all the housing and cosmetic items on the renown vendor don't concern me too much, but now there is nothing to work toward. 3+ hours in renown farming and everything can be purchased. This trivializes the items.
 
My concern is that a more efficient farm location will be found; earning players in the range of 200K per hour if not more. This will allow a sh*t ton of gear to be bought at the renown vendor, salvaged, then sold. Flooding the economy. 	
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@Linguist. medics had a discharge bug a few months ago. This allowed a tremendous amount of damage to be done just using discharge. Obviously a bug and Carbine fault, but because it wasn't intended by Carbine and was "exploited" by the players, they were punished.
 
... i can think of a way to make around 7 plat per hour of renown farm....is 7 plat per hour too much money or is it acceptable?
 
A couple handfuls of people could likely hurt the economy over the course of a weekend
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@Linguist. medics had a discharge bug a few months ago. This allowed a tremendous amount of damage to be done just using discharge. Obviously a bug and Carbine fault, but because it wasn't intended by Carbine and was "exploited" by the players, they were punished.
 
... i can think of a way to make around 7 plat per hour of renown farm....is 7 plat per hour too much money or is it acceptable?
 
A couple handfuls of people could likely hurt the economy over the course of a weekend
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My concern is that a more efficient farm location will be found; earning players in the range of 200K per hour if not more. This will allow a sh*t ton of gear to be bought at the renown vendor, salvaged, then sold. Flooding the economy. 
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Not asking for anyone to be punished. Just wanted the community's opinion on whether it's wrong to do or not. That's about it. 
 
My only concern is the economy. With our current limited player base, it doesn't take much to disturb the economy. Just reference the garden exploit. 
 
 
Din't know the crafting bags are moved Drop 4. This changes things a bit, but I do believe some dedicated folks will exploit it.
			
				
	Edited February 2, 2015 by Horse Man	
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The crafting bags have been moved to the Crafting Vouchers vendor.
 
Sign prices are stupid right now, so what?
 
The Purple and Blue dye bags will also drop low quality dyes.
 
Prices are being raised on some of the cosmetic items.  People will still have to work for it.
 
I don't think that the renown will hit 200K+ an hour.  If it does, I agree it's a problem.  At the current rate?  Not so much.  
 
The really big ticket items are BoP and one shot use anyway, people will still work to acquire them.
 
enjoying the irony though	
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look here's what's going to happen:
 
People are going to go straight to the vendor on drop 4 and buy their amp / ability points, then if they have any left over, buy the pristine bag of pigments and roll on a chance for black and white dye.
 
If you want to talk about the ramifications of that in this game, you should be asking yourself why it took 7 months to make integral parts of the game (ability / amp points) available to the population besides RNG, or why they made dyes come at such a low drop rate and be so expensive to just make an RNG roll.  Or why neither of those things are account bound.
 
Let's say if someone does spend all of their renown on items and salvages, chances are the actual profit they make will be comparable to if they had just spent the time farming mobs in a group like they are, anyway.	
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Not asking for anyone to be punished. Just wanted the community's opinion on whether it's wrong to do or not. That's about it. 
 
My only concern is the economy. With our current limited player base, it doesn't take much to disturb the economy. Just reference the garden exploit. 
 
I think it'll be possible to make 200 plat over a dedicated weekend (very boring weekend). A hand full of players doing this= nothing good with economy or CREED price.
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If you want to talk about the ramifications of that in this game, you should be asking yourself why it took 7 months to make integral parts of the game (ability / amp points) available to the population besides RNG,
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			I suppose there are only Dommies here~	
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			I think that Carbine's intent of adding the renown items was to incentivize Dungeons and Adventures. Running a giant group of mass slaying in NW is not really either of those, so I would wager it was not their intent.	
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i love how u always chose to ignore that u are able to buy ability / amp points from the EG vendor since launch.
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Seems to me that this doesn't have quite the same game-breaking potential as the gardening exploit did. The real question, as always, is how things interact with plat.
 
There's three potential plat sources on the renown vendor:
 
1. Things that can be sold on the CX/AH.
These are the rune fragments, the costume items, and possibly the dyes in the dye chests. At least in principle, the people who farm renown for these will flood the market with them eventually and their price will tank to limit profitability. They'll make a killing in the short-term, of course.
 
2. Things that can be salvaged into sellable items.
I didn't actually see any of these.
 
3. Things that can be vendored. 
This is a more serious concern because unlike the AH/CX, the vendor never reduces the value of an item purchased based on an oversupply. This is the loophole that led to the gardening exploit, for example--no matter how much gardening mats were created, the vendors would cheerfully keep paying for it. There's several items at the renown vendor that can be sold for plat, but the best exchange rate by far is the inventory bags at a rate of 1.27G/2500 renown. The real question is whether or not people in a renown farming circle can accumulate renown at a rate so high that they can make it worth their while to convert the renown into gold. 
 
Of course, if Carbine wanted to actually prevent the vendoring from being a problem, they could set the vendor return on sales of any items purchaseable from the renown vendor at 1 copper, which would completely trash the profitability of that approach.	
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"Is renown farming an exploit?"
 
Only if farming prestige, xp, and drops in a group is also an exploit.
 
This would be different if we were using something like WildstarWalker where the whole thing is automated....
 
but nah, this isn't an exploit folks	
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My only concern is the economy. With our current limited player base, it doesn't take much to disturb the economy. Just reference the garden exploit. 
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Seems like you WANT it to be an exploit.....
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I guess it is afk-follow trains like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2I9nbxXwzY rather than normal grouping that is referred to...
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			IT's cheap and kinda lame but I don't blame people for doing it, reminds me of AFK power leveling in older style korean MMORPGs.	
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I enjoyed the NW train I was in ( Exiles side ) but it wasn't as full of afkers like the Dominion video. Still had some afking but a fair amount of players were active and pulling everything and killing to maximize renown. I wouldn't call it an exploit since we're just doing group content and some of the renown items cost an insane amount of points, for example the Pristine Pigments is 250k for one random dye. I'm personally aiming for the 200k uniblade. Others in the group want the 300k ability point. Even with normal dungeon farming, you're not gonna get a whole ton of renown. Hell, I get about 15k doing dailies normally with a party of 5 people. I much rather go around in a party or raid and kill a ton of easy mobs instead of asking a dungeon party to kill every trash mob we come across.
 
If you want to afk, fine. No real loss for me. It's just up to the raid leader and if they accept afkers or not.
 
This will interrupt most people's dailies but since we take such a large loop, you can sneak some mobs while we're on the opposite end. Once we were 35+, new people who came to the raid were sometimes put in another instance. I haven't seen that happen since launch!
 
As for economy- well... they can put a lot of the new unbounded dyes for sale at whatever price they want. We never had dyes for sale other than Bloodfire and Dark Energy. I welcome people spending all their renown to get Super Nova White or Blackhole or Infrared and selling it for 20p. I can farm up that cash and buy it instead of playing the renown lottery with the dye bags.	
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Saw this today
 	
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Saw this today
 
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			We need more RP!	
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			Think of it this way. Renown is nothing more than a reward for killing things while grouped with other peopleIs farming mobs an exploit?Is making a raid an exploit?Is making a raid to go farm mobs an exploit?like really what is the exploit? being efficient and sharing it with as many people as possible?	
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			People are actually out and about and doing things other than sitting in the major cities waiting on the next raid. I say it is working as intended. Renown was designed to create incentive to actually get out and do things whether that is in the open world, dungeons, adventures, etc. That is exactly what people are doing.	
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Man I never see myself in anyone else's screenshots, sometimes I wonder if I even exist.
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Taking advantage of what appears to be a broken mechanic is considered an exploit right and what the big red button/phone or whatever it's called is there for?
 
If you're getting more Renown for doing NW 40 man than GA/DS then it's broken.
 
I don't blame people for doing it, I don't see anyone getting banned or anything for it either because we know how these things work here.
 
I saw them being advertised last night and purposefully didn't go and join because I think it's borderline exploiting what is known to be a broken mechanic and don't want to take the pee but still, I don't hold it against people doing it instead of mindless endless farming for stuff! :)
 
People will always pull up a way to justify doing it.  "Encouraging group content" etc are just crap excuses.  Adventure, Dungeon and Raid Renown is encouraging group content, not let's raid NW mobs and hit them once and get more renown.
 
It's a very simple case of someone finding a loophole and "using" or "exploiting" it to gain renown.  We'll probably see this fixed which will mean it wasn't working as intended but no punishment etc doled out.	
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you don't, your just a figment of someone else's imagination
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Taking advantage of what appears to be a broken mechanic is considered an exploit right and what the big red button/phone or whatever it's called is there for?
 
If you're getting more Renown for doing NW 40 man than GA/DS then it's broken.
 
I don't blame people for doing it, I don't see anyone getting banned or anything for it either because we know how these things work here.
 
I saw them being advertised last night and purposefully didn't go and join because I think it's borderline exploiting what is known to be a broken mechanic and don't want to take the pee but still, I don't hold it against people doing it instead of mindless endless farming for stuff! :)
 
People will always pull up a way to justify doing it.  "Encouraging group content" etc are just crap excuses.  Adventure, Dungeon and Raid Renown is encouraging group content, not let's raid NW mobs and hit them once and get more renown.
 
It's a very simple case of someone finding a loophole and "using" or "exploiting" it to gain renown.  We'll probably see this fixed which will mean it wasn't working as intended but no punishment etc doled out.
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Not at all, renown is a group currency, not gold or plat that you can farm yourself.  Unless you have two accounts! ;)
 
I don't understand why you call me mad or slanderous, I'm not the one getting stroppy, I simply posted my view on it.  If you actually think 40 man raids on a zone were expected and wanted to gain renown then I think you're completely wrong.  If using a broken mechanic for your personal gain is not exploiting, what is?
 
I've already said, I don't blame people for doing it, it's like everything in life people will take advantage of these things.  But all the excuses like it's been built that way are just people trying to justify their actions.
 
If it's not considered an exploit by CRB then this of course means we can use any mechanic available to us to do things even if it seems completely wrong or out of place and not be punished for it because we can just say it was a game mechanic that they provided!
 
I wouldn't mind betting you'll see something like - only renown gained in open world groups, not raids and or a nerf to the amount gained from mobs.  If of course it is considered not correct what is happening.  If it is how they think it should be then we may just end up watching what looks like the old Snake game we had on our phones going off all over the place!!
 
EDIT: Maybe comparing it to just GA and DS was a slight of tongue as such, I meant group content so Adventures, Dungeons, Raids..rather than just those.  Of course people will do the most efficient one if they want but I don't think raiding a zone was ever an intention is what I was getting at as it's not actually promoting grouping, it's promoting 35+ people following 1-5 people round who do the killing as the mobs are not strong enough to make a dent in 5 people and therefore are giving out too much renown.	
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			How much renown is gained per kill in DS/GA?  	
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Not at all, renown is a group currency, not gold or plat that you can farm yourself.  Unless you have two accounts! ;)
 
I don't understand why you call me mad or slanderous, I'm not the one getting stroppy, I simply posted my view on it.  If you actually think 40 man raids on a zone were expected and wanted to gain renown then I think you're completely wrong.  If using a broken mechanic for your personal gain is not exploiting, what is?
 
I've already said, I don't blame people for doing it, it's like everything in life people will take advantage of these things.  But all the excuses like it's been built that way are just people trying to justify their actions.
 
If it's not considered an exploit by CRB then this of course means we can use any mechanic available to us to do things even if it seems completely wrong or out of place and not be punished for it because we can just say it was a game mechanic that they provided!
 
I wouldn't mind betting you'll see something like - only renown gained in open world groups, not raids and or a nerf to the amount gained from mobs.  If of course it is considered not correct what is happening.  If it is how they think it should be then we may just end up watching what looks like the old Snake game we had on our phones going off all over the place!!
 
EDIT: Maybe comparing it to just GA and DS was a slight of tongue as such, I meant group content so Adventures, Dungeons, Raids..rather than just those.  Of course people will do the most efficient one if they want but I don't think raiding a zone was ever an intention is what I was getting at as it's not actually promoting grouping, it's promoting 35+ people following 1-5 people round who do the killing as the mobs are not strong enough to make a dent in 5 people and therefore are giving out too much renown.
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Pvpers get 0 renown for grouping up and doing battlegrounds together, therefore getting renown in GA/DS must be an exploit.
 
You guys are killin me at this point	
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Pvpers get 0 renown for grouping up and doing battlegrounds together, therefore getting renown in GA/DS must be an exploit.
 
You guys are killin me at this point
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Completely ignoring that the basis of your argument stems from "I don't like it!" where's your actual proof that this is a "broken mechanic", and those who are doing this are exploiters? I'll wait.
 
Given the fact that Carbine has known of this for about a week now, and have been known to very quickly hotfix what they consider to be issues in the past, it must not be an issue. And that's not even mentioning how quickly they've come down on actual exploiters. Zybak and all the people who used the Garden Fabkit exploit are proof of how little Carbine tolerates exploiters.
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Not at all, renown is a group currency, not gold or plat that you can farm yourself.
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Not true anymore, veteran shiphands reward renown even if you are in them solo.
 
 
That was exploiting a quirk in mob pack respawn behavior.  What is the renown train exploiting?
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Scaling of renown is incorrect and therefore open to abuse just like the respawn behaviours were.
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You get more renown for killing mobs in NW than in dungeons because renown is awarded by each mob kill. A dungeon has to be brimming with trash groups to be comparable.
 
You don't get any extra renown for killing mobs that are meant for 5 targets, so that dungeon trash mob is worth the same as a little moodie. Wanna make dungeons more pleasing for renown? Make them give x3-5 more renown per kill. Until then, I'm gonna enjoy the NW train.	
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How is the scaling incorrect?(not snide, really wondering)
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			I haven't done dungeons/adventures in a looooong time.  I have no idea how much renown is gained per kill in a dungeon/adventure.  I do remember how much I was getting in the renown train.  How much is rewarded in the dungeon/adventure per kill vs. what is rewarded per kill in the renown train?  	
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Took them a while to stop the last one too didn't it.  They wont just hotfix something if they don't consider it to be absolutely critical.
 
This is obviously not that critical as it's not costing money on a huge scale etc etc.
 
Why wouldn't you get renown from doing group PvP though, don't really make sense?
 
Zybak got banned for exactly what was said previously in this post - if you just do a /follow and go make a coffee etc that's exploiting, no doubts about it.
 
I base my argument on the fact that when people were doing this for R12 rep that got fixed, when people were farming mobs and killing 1 for loot and not the 2 adds to make a reset happen it got hotfixed.  It appears to be unintended the amount of gains you achieve from doing this.
 
That doesn't mean this one is a banning offence, unless you are afking while doing it...just like R12 and the mob resetting, it will just get fixed but is most probably a bug that people are taking advantage of (does that make you happier me phrasing it that way?)
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			As far as I know, being in a raid doesn't get them more renown per kill than if they were in a five man group, and I don't think anyone would complain if it was just a five man group doing this, so I don't see how they are exploiting that aspect.  The only angle I can think of is that the large numbers of players are forcing faster respawns through the pressure mechanic, but I find it a stretch to call that an exploit.	
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As far as I know, being in a raid doesn't get them more renown per kill than if they were in a five man group, and I don't think anyone would complain if it was just a five man group doing this, so I don't see how they are exploiting that aspect.  The only angle I can think of is that the large numbers of players are forcing faster respawns through the pressure mechanic, but I find it a stretch to call that an exploit.
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Yeah... I'm going to change my vote to 'No" for this method of Renown Farming.
 
While I understand that it's just a game mechanic, farming renown this way is just too disruptive to the play of other people. As they can't do their dailies because there are no mobs and the number of players in one zone.
 
Just because it's possible doesn't mean its healthy.  I believe this should be nixed.	
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*sigh* Really, we're arguing at this point about whether or not it's appropriate for a 40 person group to pile up into massive amounts of renown while most of them aren't even at the keyboard, which they can then cash in for items that can be resold for plat?
 
This may not destroy the economy, but it will certainly inflate it and I can only hope Carbine has a fix in the works sooner rather than later.	
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{| class="blockquote"
As far as I know, being in a raid doesn't get them more renown per kill than if they were in a five man group, and I don't think anyone would complain if it was just a five man group doing this, so I don't see how they are exploiting that aspect.  The only angle I can think of is that the large numbers of players are forcing faster respawns through the pressure mechanic, but I find it a stretch to call that an exploit.
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{| class="blockquote"
I don't think this was the intended route for renown acquisition.
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{| class="blockquote"
Can they be?  Generally, when you buy with a special currency you can only resell for that currency.  They would be able to salvage and sell that loot, but we're starting to get farther away from the source with more RNG and time affecting the total earning.  Has anyone done any mass salvaging today, to check out the improved item salvage mentioned in the patch notes?
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{| class="blockquote"
Dyes from the dye bags are fully tradeable.
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			They're just gonna fill the CX with new dyes you can buy! How horrible, being able to buy Supernova white and Blackhole.	
----
			I never said it was a bad thing... just correcting him that there are in fact items that can be purchased and resold for a big profit (at this time...)	
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Sorry if I am being paranoid but I used the T action on a  few of the of corpses before I relized what they were doing.
 
Would I get banned for this?
 
 	
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{| class="blockquote"
Sorry if I am being paranoid but I used the T action on a  few of the of corpses before I relized what they were doing.
 
Would I get banned for this?
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{| class="blockquote"
Not true anymore, veteran shiphands reward renown even if you are in them solo.
 
[...]
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			No.	
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{| class="blockquote"
Has anyone that is against this ever taken your level 50 toon into a low level dungeon and not rallied in order to farm modules? People (myself included) are farming those in ways Carbine didn't intend. Some people keep them for personal use, and others are dumping them into the AH and making money and "tinkering" with the economy.
 
That is the same principle. You are using what the designers gave us, admittedly in an unexpected way.
 
Also i am pretty sure everything you buy with renown is soulbound.
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{| class="blockquote"
I haven't but mainly because I have 150+ modules from arena, I don't consider low level dungeons all that amazing for modules though. 200k Renown on the other hand, in only an hour or so is pretty much obviously not intended when harder content gives you far less reward-wise.
 
It's almost like people want there to be no reason to run dungeons/adventures/shiphands.
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{| class="blockquote"
It's almost like people want there to be no reason to run dungeons/adventures/shiphands.
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While I don't think it's an exploit (on topic with the post title), I am certain it is not an intended method of gaining vast amount of renown.
 
So I anticipate it being adjusted somehow.  I hope the fix doesn't screw the rest of us over unnecessarily.	
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Can we get Carbine to chime in? It almost seems like we need to post to reddit to get a response. 
 
Is the way renown is currently being farmed an intended mechanic? If it isn't intended, what will be done to limit it?	
----
			
If they call it an exploit, then they'll have to ban people.
 
They'll probably just fix it.	
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It's something like 50k-70k an hour if you work hard.
 
Honestly at this point, anyone that has an issue with it is absolutely ridiculous. We have raiders on one hand with too much renown to even spend, and the rest of us finally get a way to earn comparable renown and you guys call it an exploit.
 
This is beyond silly now. Its not an exploit, drop it.	
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I honestly had no problem with these renown train, until last night when I was attempting to put together a group for an event that used to run regularly, multiple times a day. I could barely scrape together 8 people, and 3 of them were guildmates. Obviously this Renown train is taking people out of the regular rotation of players that would otherwise queue for dungeons/adventures or run the open world events when they came up.
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{| class="blockquote"
Newsflash, if they'd rather do the renown train, they probably don't want to do the dungeons anyway. After all, its just renown.
 
If you really wanted to fix the issue, you'd drop the absurd price of the amp ability points and the RNG dye bags.
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{| class="blockquote"
We have raiders on one hand with too much renown to even spend
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{| class="blockquote"
It's something like 50k-70k an hour if you work hard.
 
Honestly at this point, anyone that has an issue with it is absolutely ridiculous. We have raiders on one hand with too much renown to even spend, and the rest of us finally get a way to earn comparable renown and you guys call it an exploit.
 
This is beyond silly now. Its not an exploit, drop it.
----
			How much renown would you say you earned from GA /DS?	
----
			Since I started raiding, progressing through GA and most of DS, my net is around -120k renown. That's just flasks of speed every raid day	
----
			That sounds pretty reasonable.  I had about 85k before linking in with a raiding guild from doing vet dungeons and adventures with former guild.  Progressing through GA since mid December brought me up to around ~120k.  Then accidentally blew about 25k on rune fragments marked with gold/silver/copper currency (still very irritated about that).	
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			I meant from one run. Not over time.	
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Pfft, maybe 2-5k?  If that.  Do the math dude.  You get more renown doing dungeons and adventure runs repeatedly than you do raiding precisely due to the trash.  And the renown farming has taken that to a logical extreme, grouping and doing essentially nothing but trash in areas never intended for raid group collectives.  
 
I honestly don't care that much.  The NW crew looked bored out of their skulls and were tucked off into a little corner of the eldan lab and not really bothering anyone else (and there were other locations to accomplish the daily quest).  If they proceed to make it difficult for non-participatory members to accomlish the intended zone tasks, then that's more of a problem, but I haven't seen that.  And I'm sure the code is working precisely the way they intended it, thus not an exploit.  However I don't see it as intended design so it'll get fixed eventually.  The only problem is whether or not that !@#$s those of us doing it the intended design method along with correcting the unintended design method.	
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			That's the thing you don't understand, it doesn't matter how much renown you can get in a single raid because you spend so much more time working on your progression boss than you did getting to that boss that week. It's a net loss. Even if you have GA on farm it's still incredibly inefficient for renown gains. There are raiders who had just insane amounts of renown before the renown train was a thing, but it isn't from raiding, it's from doing group content outside of raid. 	
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			At this point, I hope Carbine kills it off just so that the chat spam about it stops.	
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So, I don't get it.  Neither of you are able to produce a hard number for renown gained from a GA / DS clear.  I have produced a rough estimate of my renown gain from an hour grinding renown in NW.
 
Whether you choose to spend that renown or not, is up to you.  You don't just get to subtract voluntary decisions from your total.
 
Further, if it isn't even just raids that you're getting absurd amounts of renown from --- then I think that makes our argument for freely spending time farming renown even better.	
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{| class="blockquote"
That's the thing you don't understand, it doesn't matter how much renown you can get in a single raid because you spend so much more time working on your progression boss than you did getting to that boss that week. It's a net loss. Even if you have GA on farm it's still incredibly inefficient for renown gains. There are raiders who had just insane amounts of renown before the renown train was a thing, but it isn't from raiding, it's from doing group content outside of raid. 
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			My only issue with renown outside of the farming is just how little we get when the Amp and Ability points cost so much.  The amount of time investment needed to purchase both of those makes farming the money and buying them off the AH a reasonable option.  Outside of gear, performance enhancement shouldn't be gated to those who have the time to farm them.  The idea that we have to wait weeks to use the full potential of our class is stupid.  Especially when it reduces your value to the raid group, regardless of how well you perform.	
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			Black hole dye finally on the AH ty peeps!	
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My only issue with renown outside of the farming is just how little we get when the Amp and Ability points cost so much.  The amount of time investment needed to purchase both of those makes farming the money and buying them off the AH a reasonable option.  Outside of gear, performance enhancement shouldn't be gated to those who have the time to farm them.  The idea that we have to wait weeks to use the full potential of our class is stupid.  Especially when it reduces your value to the raid group, regardless of how well you perform.
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{| class="blockquote"
My only issue with renown outside of the farming is just how little we get when the Amp and Ability points cost so much.  The amount of time investment needed to purchase both of those makes farming the money and buying them off the AH a reasonable option.  Outside of gear, performance enhancement shouldn't be gated to those who have the time to farm them.  The idea that we have to wait weeks to use the full potential of our class is stupid.  Especially when it reduces your value to the raid group, regardless of how well you perform.
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{| class="blockquote"
I maxed out my abilities and amps purely through EG. All the rest is just gravy.
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{| class="blockquote"
My only issue with renown outside of the farming is just how little we get when the Amp and Ability points cost so much.  The amount of time investment needed to purchase both of those makes farming the money and buying them off the AH a reasonable option.  Outside of gear, performance enhancement shouldn't be gated to those who have the time to farm them.  The idea that we have to wait weeks to use the full potential of our class is stupid.  Especially when it reduces your value to the raid group, regardless of how well you perform.
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Considering how awkwardly high the prices for certain things are, I'm not surprised that players choose the path of least resistance.
 
Actually, even if the prices weren't so high I wouldn't be surprised for them to do that. But they are high and you must acquire them if you wish to optimize your character. Those two things together encourage this kind of behaviour.
 
And I wonder if Carbine will actually fix it because, you know, if someone can sell some of those things for platinum with this via the AH, that means some people might be tempted to sell CREDD to get enough plat to acquire those. Which means Carbine could benefit from this. 
Okay, I'm having a deja vu now.	
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What noone seems to see is the problem isn't so much what they'll sell from this renown, it's what they won't have to buy from other players that got those from legit ways : dyes for example, especially since now most dye drops seem to not be bound...
 
So once again it's the legit players that get the shaft... It's been this way for PvP and carries or win-trading, and some PvPers who got their sets (no matter the way) are now against unrated 1800 gear, it's been this way for the plant exploit and all the plats that got laundered and the price fluctuation that ensued on AMP and ability points, and now it's going to be this way for dyes as well and whatever can be gotten for renown and either sold or not bought from other players...	
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I stuck my nose into one of these renown trains on my level 30 Spellslinger.  A couple of things came to my attention:
Some of these are well organized and well run, with AFK people being booted.	Northern Wastes is now accessible to sub-50 characters.  This was a bit of a shocker.	I was gaining roughly 150,000 renown an hour.  XP gains were about 60% of a level (or about 1% per minute).
The best I had ever done for renown grinding previously was about 10,000 per hour in a group of 4-5 people doing adventures, dungeons or questing -- you know, the usual stuff.  Solo grinds were about half that doing the Housing challenges.  So what's my take?
 
I was surprised to see that renown was awarded in Raid groups.  But seeing the rate at which renown was gained here -- surpassing my hourly best in less than 5 minutes, this does feel exploitive.  I do think Carbine should put the brakes on this if only not to devalue the items that can be acquired from renown.  Shiphand missions presently award a lot more than I could previously gain.  Veteran Missions in groups of 5 people can earn about 30,000 to 50,000 per hour.  But this makes sense given the incentives to run these new scenarios.
 
Experience gain wise ... well, I can level faster doing quests.  And go less bonkers from repetitiveness.  I predict we will see raid-renown farming nerfed and I will not complain.	
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{| class="blockquote"
I stuck my nose into one of these renown trains on my level 30 Spellslinger.  A couple of things came to my attention:
Some of these are well organized and well run, with AFK people being booted.	Northern Wastes is now accessible to sub-50 characters.  This was a bit of a shocker.	I was gaining roughly 150,000 renown an hour.  XP gains were about 60% of a level (or about 1% per minute).
The best I had ever done for renown grinding previously was about 10,000 per hour in a group of 4-5 people doing adventures, dungeons or questing -- you know, the usual stuff.  Solo grinds were about half that doing the Housing challenges.  So what's my take?
 
I was surprised to see that renown was awarded in Raid groups.  But seeing the rate at which renown was gained here -- surpassing my hourly best in less than 5 minutes, this does feel exploitive.  I do think Carbine should put the brakes on this if only not to devalue the items that can be acquired from renown.  Shiphand missions presently award a lot more than I could previously gain.  Veteran Missions in groups of 5 people can earn about 30,000 to 50,000 per hour.  But this makes sense given the incentives to run these new scenarios.
 
Experience gain wise ... well, I can level faster doing quests.  And go less bonkers from repetitiveness.  I predict we will see raid-renown farming nerfed and I will not complain.
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{| class="blockquote"
And I wonder if Carbine will actually fix it because, you know, if someone can sell some of those things for platinum with this via the AH, that means some people might be tempted to sell CREDD to get enough plat to acquire those. Which means Carbine could benefit from this. 
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Quick, players are working together toward a goal that helps them fight the massive RNG bosses this game throws at us in every patch, let's call it an exploit and ban people!!!111!!!!
 
Carbine's definition of hardcore:  RNG.
 
Hopefully, these 1 time use ability / amp points and epic dyes that are character bound and untradeable don't break the game!!
 
Believe me, Carbine isn't in a position to offend the people that are playing Wildstar to renown farm when they could be playing GW2, or WoW, etc.  Not when they're trying to rescue their game from 0 subscribers.  I know I certainly won't be in a dungeon or spamming more practice battlegrounds if they did something about our renown train.  This is finally something pvpers can do to be on par with the rest of the game!
 
Look there's 2 reasons to renown train.
 
500k for ability / amp points.
 
then 250k per rng dye bag
 
that's it!  people are choosing to do what they want to do... and if we're really honest about it, there's a high possibility that the time you spent farming renown could be spent farming up enough plat for an rng ability / amp point anyway.
 
this is just an optional way for people to spend their time when they dont want to run dungeons / pvp	
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{| class="blockquote"
Look there's 2 reasons to renown train.
 
500k for ability / amp points.
 
then 250k per rng dye bag
 
that's it!  people are choosing to do what they want to do... and if we're really honest about it, there's a high possibility that the time you spent farming renown could be spent farming up enough plat for an rng ability / amp point anyway.
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			To those that think people doing this are getting away with something.I farmed one million renown sitting there chatting. Took about 7-8 hours4 orange bags. Every single one contained blue quality dyes worth about 3-5g on the CXCould you imagine farming a million renown for less than a plat worth of reward at 10k an hour?It's a complete RNG lottery like everything else in the game.But people are enjoying it and it's not taking away from anyone else's ability to play the game or causing any sort of unfair power swing or anythingSo why try to take it away?what's the rationale even? Anyone that wants to is welcome to join in on themIs the mindset really "I don't want to do it so you shouldn't be allowed to either" ?	
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{| class="blockquote"
People are choosing to do what they want to do? What a strange game, where the thing you most want to do is run it AFK but not play it. Huh.
 
As for the "high possibility" that the 2-3 hours you'd take farming renown to earn those ability/amp points could instead just be spent farming enough plat to buy the same points off the AH, I bow to your prowess at farming plat.  :D
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{| class="blockquote"
Some people there are afk.  Some people are taking turns.  Some people are actively killing mobs the entire time.  Just because you might see people there afk does not mean everyone is.  Some of us are on teamspeak chatting about Wildstar, organizing warplots / raids, theory crafting, etc, and taking turns killing the mobs in the room.  
 
This really is a common thing about MMOs. We're just choosing to help each other farm renown for RNG lottery instead of sit around on hoverboards / stupid looking mounts in illium  / thayd. 
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			Working as intended.	
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			From patch notes: Renown can no longer be gained while in a raid group unless the group is in a raid zone.	
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{| class="blockquote"
From patch notes: Renown can no longer be gained while in a raid group unless the group is in a raid zone.
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{| class="blockquote"
Guess that's that then.
I AKF'd one night so I could work on my custom PC case, was pretty awesome, another night I went and killed stuff for hours then went and AFK'd when I need to sleep.
Was really nice of everyone to help out.
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{| class="blockquote"
This is exactly why people have been banned previously.  It's a form of automated gameplay.
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Yes it is if you are gaining from doin nothing.
 
If you sit in Illium/Thayd and do it then no it's not.  But sitting AFK in a group gaining renown for not playing is quite blatantly.	
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			Being AFK and mooching is not a form of automated gameplay, period.	
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Yea that's slightly different to being AFK sitting in a group farming mobs isn't it.
 
It's pretty much indefensible.  I don't know why you're even trying.	
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Bottom line, this form of "AFK gameplay" shouldn't exist. Period. Going to the bathroom for 2 minutes I can understand, but you should only be rewarded for actually playing the game. 
 
I had a taste of the train last night and didn't enjoy it one bit. (Sorry supporters), I'm glad they fixed it. 
 
The way I looked at it was... It's kind of the same of farming eldan rune of fusion in Grimvault. (You're right, technically speaking, it's not an exploit). Farming is usually faster alone since you're 100% guaranteed to win the drop. It's sort of the same mindless killing over and over but at least it requires you to move and not auto-attack so much. 
Farming nodes and plants also require you to move around in the world and housing plots. 
But that's completely different. 
 
Watching people auto-attack in one spot for hours on end felt broken. wrong. dirty, and while I was present the entire time I was in the train, I felt kind of mad 'carrying' and enabling those who were AFK the entire time. It wasn't fun at all.
 
Anyways, that's just my opinion. 	
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You know what else isn't fun?  Watching renown get turned off in a hotfix patch, but never turned on for pvp for 7 months.
 
Carbin pls	
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Correct, it's not fun but who made this happen by taking the *cupcake*?
 
Two wrongs (well more in most case :P) don't make a right eh.	
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			Seriously, I'm amazed how fast this got sorted...I see how it is Carbone.My Drop 4 content was as follows, do crafting fetch dailies, renown train, sit in queue for PBG.Well so long renown train, I honestly never thought I'd be able to buy my alts nice houses, you will be missed 2015-2015.	
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{| class="blockquote"
You know what else isn't fun?  Watching renown get turned off in a hotfix patch, but never turned on for pvp for 7 months.
 
Carbin pls
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{| class="blockquote"
You know what else isn't fun?  Watching renown get turned off in a hotfix patch, but never turned on for pvp for 7 months.
 
Carbin pls
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			A smarter response would have been to remove gains from anyone that hasn't engaged in actual combat for a certain time frame, and remove gains for anyone tagged AFK. Despite the nature of it, the farm was a fairly nice social thing to do, with the people who weren't just mooching.	
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{| class="blockquote"
A smarter response would have been to remove gains from anyone that hasn't engaged in actual combat for a certain time frame, and remove gains for anyone tagged AFK. Despite the nature of it, the farm was a fairly nice social thing to do, with the people who weren't just mooching.
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			Just glad i got my amp and ability point on my two toons before the fix :)	
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			If anything, add a renown reward at the end of raid-type world events like SW and the Tree. Those are the type of things you should get it from.	
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{| class="blockquote"
Just glad i got my amp and ability point on my two toons before the fix :)
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{| class="blockquote"
And you HONESTLY see no issue with being able to get both an amp AND ability point for two characters in a week? You don't think that's just slightly out of whack??
 
Seriously... I don't get how anyone can honestly say this wasn't obviously out of balance. Not an exploit, but definitely not in balance.
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Yeah, now I kinda wish I had had the fortitude to sit there for a few hours on each character, holding down my 1 key (since I can't stomach going AFK and letting others do my work for me) and watching Hulu to get my amps and ability points on all my characters.  I much preferred to actually do stuff, and I guess I'll pay the price in having to work harder for mine at a slower pace.
 
{| class="blockquote"
Between PvP, paths, dungeons, and daily zones you are basically covered on AMP/Ability points.  I don't know why getting four in one week is absurd when before the drop you could get 9 or so in one day (a really long day), depending on PvP queues and gold dungeon competency.
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Ah, it's like it was only yesterday that I was in a raid group, working together for a common goal, chatting with people, and happy.  It's like the game was a thriving, bustling game, full of population!
 
Now today, I sit here with the other afkers in illium, with no one trying to make group, pvp queue's at unknown, people unable to get groups for world bosses, rep events, or groups for attunement, yet again.
 
Guess I'll just raidlog like everyone else	
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			a bloobloobloo now I have to play the game to get renown	
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			The train may be gone, but I doubt your PUG queues will get any better. The assumption that the train "takes people away from dungeon or adventure groups" is way off the mark. Some people don't queue up with randoms at all. Funny thing is, if it had been 40 people Roleplaying in the Eldan labs, no one would have cared. The only content I could imagine being greatly impacted by the farming would be pvp. Somehow I doubt the majority of people farming were PvPers.	
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{| class="blockquote"
The train may be gone, but I doubt your PUG queues will get any better. The assumption that the train "takes people away from dungeon or adventure groups" is way off the mark. Some people don't queue up with randoms at all. Funny thing is, if it had been 40 people Roleplaying in the Eldan labs, no one would have cared. The only content I could imagine being greatly impacted by the farming would be pvp. Somehow I doubt the majority of people farming were PvPers.
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Glad the train is gone.
 
What I don't understand:
 
By a fair margin, the reason stated by those who wanted the renown train was because ya'll could socialize in a group while running content... making friends in game, etc...
 
Now that the train is no longer running, you no longer have friends? There is a friends list in game for a reason. You that PVP, queue up together and PVP. Other make a raid group and kill world bosses, or run dungeons, shiphands, and adventures. If the former isn't your thing, get together and have community events. There is stuff to do; quite a bit actually for a game that is less than a year old.
 
Here's a couple ideas for the PVPers:
 
Have a PVP tournament with a 25g entrance fee. Double elimination. Top 3-5 pays out.
(Keep it simple to start....maybe Duels against others in your faction. Make it best out of 5 or something. Have three tiers, 1500 gear and 1800 gear, PVE gear.
Advertise in the General Discussion forum and link to Reddit as well. Hype it up and have fun with it. Stream the event.
Create real brackets. 
 
I know I'd like to see how it tuns out.
 
Also,
 
Do you PVPers have "raid" nights? Maybe coordinate cross faction and have a few PVP raid night during the week. Be inclusive, I'm sure there are a lot of PVE players that want to try PVP but are intimidated by it.	
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Lol dude, when the game was at it's busiest I could run those nights. Now I would be lucky to get 10 people together to go raid Thayd.
 
We used to have RBG nights 4 days a week, warplots 1 day a week. The pvp vendors in illium was busy and full of people duelling each other.
No one queues rated anymore, because most pvpers left already or they just don't queue rated, because there is no point.
 
Back on hazak there was great competition, we used to have so much fun.
 
There are NO PVP QUEUES right now. I sat in a queue for 3 hours earlier for no pop. I used to be able to sit in one for 10 minutes happily chatting, because 10mins isn't that bad, but now Im lucky if I can get 1 bg per day.
 
As for world events, we tried back on luminai. Asked devs for advertisement (on 0-50 or nexus report), tried posting in general discussion and the topic got moved, That's not to say that I'm not going to plan new events (because I actually have one in the works right now, called hot potato)
 
I don't want to call you ignorant Horse Man, because you obviously were just unaware, but there have been a lot of us pvpers battling for some notice for a long time, all of those things you've suggested has been done to death already, there just aren't the numbers left anymore. My purely pvp guild is now attuning members to raid whilst we wait for drop 5. If drop 5 brings us no hope, I know a lot of my members will finally give up on the game.
 
And eclips, I feel you bro. Remaking Potato on Jabbit was painful, the influence gains are slow and we get no renown from bgs (for the one I do a day I get... maybe 5 renown?) my guildies were doing the renown train to get to know people on the server and also try and convince people maybe to pvp once in a while. Bleh :(	
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{| class="blockquote"
Glad the train is gone.
 
What I don't understand:
 
By a fair margin, the reason stated by those who wanted the renown train was because ya'll could socialize in a group while running content... making friends in game, etc...
 
Now that the train is no longer running, you no longer have friends? There is a friends list in game for a reason. You that PVP, queue up together and PVP. Other make a raid group and kill world bosses, or run dungeons, shiphands, and adventures. If the former isn't your thing, get together and have community events. There is stuff to do; quite a bit actually for a game that is less than a year old.
 
Here's a couple ideas for the PVPers:
 
Have a PVP tournament with a 25g entrance fee. Double elimination. Top 3-5 pays out.
(Keep it simple to start....maybe Duels against others in your faction. Make it best out of 5 or something. Have three tiers, 1500 gear and 1800 gear, PVE gear.
Advertise in the General Discussion forum and link to Reddit as well. Hype it up and have fun with it. Stream the event.
Create real brackets. 
 
I know I'd like to see how it tuns out.
 
Also,
 
Do you PVPers have "raid" nights? Maybe coordinate cross faction and have a few PVP raid night during the week. Be inclusive, I'm sure there are a lot of PVE players that want to try PVP but are intimidated by it.
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Why don't people PVP? Is it class balancing? Gear itemization? What?
 
If the PVP community is so low in population and is so tight knit a group, can't ya'll just agree to acceptable guidelines on builds, gear score, and the like? At least until Drop 5. Get your community active again.	
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			 don't even bother queing anymore	
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			Yeah, no lie, with the train gone, I'm just not bothering to log in. Not like the train was anything special, but I don't PvP and it was better than PuG dungeons.	
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Hey folks, 
 
I know this is a passionate topic, but lets please keep the personal insults out of it. Constructive discussions that encourage a back and forth conversation are great, but when they turn personal not so much. Lets get it back on subject please. Remember if you want to leave feedback regarding the recent change, you can do so in our feedback thread here. 
 
Thanks!
- Team WildStar 	
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Yeah, no lie, with the train gone, I'm just not bothering to log in. Not like the train was anything special, but I don't PvP and it was better than PuG dungeons.
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			meh	
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How I read some of the reactions in this thread:
 
"Waah, they took away something I did, now I'm not gonne queue anymore"
"Waah, nobody is queuing anymore, now I won't login anymore"
"Waah, nobody is logging in anymore"
Do you see where this is going?
People are complaining and making threats, and then complain more because their threats have undesired consequences.
If you want  this game to actually change something or achieve something, then:
 
First of all Play the game
Collect evidence with screenshots or error messages
Formulate this in a nice bug report or discussion topic using proper argumentation
Spread the news using facebook, social media and other website.
 
Tl;Dr : Stop being a whiney brat and become an active, acceptable member of our community.	
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Tl;Dr : Stop being a whiney brat and become an active, acceptable member of our community.
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Not surprised to see the train gone. It was clearly not intended.
 
Not sure why people would stop logging in over something like that. What were you doing before patch 4? And if you really enjoyed it, it seems this would be a good opportunity for Carbine to figure out what was enjoyable and create content that mimics it (unless the enjoyable part was feeling like you were getting away with something).
 
I'm surprised to learn you don't get renown from PvP. That should be fixed/changed for sure.	
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It was enjoyable because it created a reasonably pathway to another AMP/Ability Point, Costumes, and Dyes.
 
Previously, we were just sitting in pvp queues / raidlogging for GA / DS.
 
Now we're doing proto-games, raidlogging for GA / DS, and sitting in longer pvp queues.
 
... but eventually proto-games will fade away too, so that's nice.
 
So maybe 1 day we'll start seeing people farm renown again.  Right now the price is too high, and I don't inherently have the desire to farm dungeons anyway, so what's the point?	
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I can see what Eclips is saying here...you'd basically queue for what you wanted to do and in the meantime be able to do something that you can get stuff from.
 
Arguably you can just go and farm mobs too for plat and buy them but you don't really have the camaraderie of another 39 people jokes etc flying about if you're doing that.  It just needed a bit of balancing really as it was not intended and the fix is another blanket fix which doesn't really solve the route of the problem without possibly impacting other things.	
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Pssst!  Eclips!  World PVP!  Plug world PVP and an increase in the renown gains for world PVP!  Request areas people can go and try to hold a position like Halaa or capture flags or something where they get renown for world PVP, all while they wait on their queues!  This is the perfect time!
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{| class="blockquote"
It was enjoyable because it created a reasonably pathway to another AMP/Ability Point, Costumes, and Dyes.
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{| class="blockquote"
It was enjoyable because it created a reasonably pathway to another AMP/Ability Point, Costumes, and Dyes.
 
Previously, we were just sitting in pvp queues / raidlogging for GA / DS.
 
Now we're doing proto-games, raidlogging for GA / DS, and sitting in longer pvp queues.
 
... but eventually proto-games will fade away too, so that's nice.
 
So maybe 1 day we'll start seeing people farm renown again.  Right now the price is too high, and I don't inherently have the desire to farm dungeons anyway, so what's the point?
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{| class="blockquote"
Pssst!  Eclips!  World PVP!  Plug world PVP and an increase in the renown gains for world PVP!  Request areas people can go and try to hold a position like Halaa or capture flags or something where they get renown for world PVP, all while they wait on their queues!  This is the perfect time!
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No, World PvP sucks in this game.  Like--- it's so broken and unnecessary that I won't even be bothered to flag up.
 
There is no risk, no reward. When you kill someone, they respawn unflagged for a short time, etc.
 
Maybe after PvP is overhauled in general, can we even consider this game to have meaningful world pvp.
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Alright folks, this thread has done its job and since it's no longer about the OP I'm going to close it. If you'd like to discuss renown in pvp (or lack there of) please feel free to discuss it in the pvp section of our forums. Also remember to feedback any changes from our patches in their feedback threads here in general. 
 
Thank you
- Team WildStar 	
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