120715-carbine-whats-your-strategy-here

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Let me start by saying that I do not want to start a 'war' here. I simply would like to advocate a discussion about what is being done and the direction WildStar is heading.
This is not meant to be a doomsday thread so I will keep that nonsense out of here and I expect posters to this thread to respect that as well.
 
The new Warrior class lead posted something in the Warrior forums and I responded with an ounce of frustration. CRB_Anlath responded to my response, as always in a much more tactful manner than I, with some interesting comments that I'd like to discuss.
 
The Warrior thread that was posted in was not the place to discuss it, so I'm going to bring it here. Again, this is not intended to be an attack at anyone, Community Managers, Devs, and players alike. Please keeps attacks to yourself. 
 
The OP, courtesy Moja. (Moja, you're doing a fantastic job and I am just using your post as the spark of this discussion, nothing more)
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Hey everyone!
 
I wanted to give you guys an update on the Warrior. I’ll try to make this a regular thing   :)
 
First off, full disclosure: what’s on PTR right now is what I’ve inherited, so that’s our starting point for changes. Unfortunately, Drop 4 is pretty much locked down, so it’s unlikely that any other changes will make it through :(.
 
[...]
 
If you have anything you’d like us to look at (bugs, abilities/AMPs that need improvements, etc.), let us know!
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ptr is a testing location atm there is nothing to test on the ptr most top guilds went though DS20 and found out it is heavly overtuned and needs some rework and bugfixing.
getting a patch on a server is not that easy it can take quite some hours and also you gotta dome some backups and such.
atm ptr is standing still for the reason that they just came from there vacation i am sure that its going to get upgraded with either drop 4 or a bi-weekly patch rather soon.
atm the priority seems to push out those drop 4 changes to the ptr and i think thats the right choice its a drop it has to be perfect specially for DS!
a (bi-weekly) patch can wait a bit longer...we should also stop calling them bi-weekly it isnt bi-weekly just a mistake of carbine phasing it that way as anlath said a bit ago	
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"We're listening but we're the developers and you're the players so we have the trump card and we'll do what we think is best because listening to players earlier in the year got us into hotwater and our management is not helping"
 
That's what I'm getting out of CRB_Anlath comments.
Just a word of advice towards Carbine, Way back When, was not your core player base, it was your early adopters and 1 off players that cycle from game to game to game and don't care if a past game survives.
 
It's the core players you need to listen to Carbine, not the early adopters.	
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Hey Psyknis, a request please? :)  Can you change the purple font to a different color, it's killing my eyes on that background color :(
 
But yes, as much as they are able it would be nice to see some of their hopes and expectations for the game.  Unfortunately we have the holidays just now behind us, so that seems to have delayed anything they would be putting out there.  I think they are a tad too hesitant to put things out there because there may be changes or delays to what they "promised" would be done.  Hey now, give us a bit more credit, and use disclaimers :D
 
Thank you :D	
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			I'm not sure I understand the specific objection here- is the idea of locking down features for release?	
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I'm not sure I understand the specific objection here- is the idea of locking down features for release?
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It would seem so.  I must say it does seem a bit strange when things are raised regarding the PTR and they don't get addressed and are just shoved LIVE and unless they are really game breaking, tend to wait a quarter to get fixed rather than in the bi-weekly releases.
 
That said, I do kind of prefer the fact we now have a period of 2-3 months playing without feeling like we're constantly testing the last build but I think things could improve between a release hitting PTR and issues raised on there being addressed rather than that build just appearing to get pushed LIVE anyway.
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It would seem so.  I must say it does seem a bit strange when things are raised regarding the PTR and they don't get addressed and are just shoved LIVE and unless they are really game breaking, tend to wait a quarter to get fixed rather than in the bi-weekly releases.
 
That said, I do kind of prefer the fact we now have a period of 2-3 months playing without feeling like we're constantly testing the last build but I think things could improve between a release hitting PTR and issues raised on there being addressed rather than that build just appearing to get pushed LIVE anyway.
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thats what is being done atm DS 20 man wont go though as it is atm on the ptr thats never going to happen they will most likely put up a fixed version before drop 4 hits us.
 
also about locking down a drop:
thats normal you cant endlessly put in features until last date. changes to warriors came late so they cant be in this drop its testing wise impossible.
 
 
drop 4 focuses on itemization and DS 20 man and some shiphands.
afaik shiphands arent really tested that much in there veteran version you can do that if you want to!
ds 20 man has been tested quite abit and people found out thats its overtuned and buggy.
itemization has been giving feedback on since it first came up on ptr.
what else do you want?
there were 2 weeks of vacation xmas and new year almost all company have vacation on those days in a year and you probally had vacation too!
give them there break and let them come back to the office they are just starting again in i would say 2 weeks we will say a new drop 4 build on the ptr while then take a look at the shiphands and help improve them instead of complaining that humans take a break...
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thats what is being done atm DS 20 man wont go though as it is atm on the ptr thats never going to happen they will most likely put up a fixed version before drop 4 hits us.
 
also about locking down a drop:
thats normal you cant endlessly put in features until last date. changes to warriors came late so they cant be in this drop its testing wise impossible.
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My issues do not stem from them taking a vacation, that alone brings up other issues, but that's neither here nor there. 
 
What I wanted was patch notes to see what is being changed, so we can test and determine how to move forward. The playerbase takes the brunt of testing and could have used this information to pinpoint problems. 
 
What I want to know right now is if the version of Drop 4 (minus the DS20 changes that have to happen and the few other class-driven feedback changes) was "locked down" before it even hit the PTR? Essentially if we didn't have forum-warriors and diligent theorycrafters, no one would even know what changes were coming to their classes before they hit live.
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patch notes are a thing and its true carbine should provide them way earlier.
the warriors situation is kinda tricky the changes do change warrior a lot not providing those patch notes was a mistake.
the new changes to warrior that were posted are just late carbine decided to lock down the drop to make sure they will be able to provide quality content.
i dont think that drop 4 was locked down before it hit ptr i would say the lockdown happened in december but well i doubt that carbine will give you the answer you want they might be getting better at providing patch notes but they wont say when they lockdown a drop.
 
true and the tank threat issue is just one of those examples but honestly warriors have been getting there much needed changes...i know its late for those and there are still some issues open.
but a developer cant do 50 things at the same time dps on warriors is high and skill needed is rather low tanks are still not thaaaat good but they got better.
sometimes ideas to improve something need to be polished a bit warriors have atm a really easy design they wanted to make that a bit harder so they put there focus on the dps part.
tanks will be adressed in the future again aswell but its just wont happen in the very near future like drop 4
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Hi,
Comitted raider from Codex, here (6 to 7 nights a week), I don't consider myself as best engineer or player in the world, but since I'm a "first day player" who've seen every single flame, taunt, and cry of hope on the offical forum or subreddit, I have to say that I'm not a big fan of the way you handle things.
 
You might be a comitted player too who only want the best for its class, I respect that, but most of the time, you're way too impulsive (hijacking threads, multi-posting, crying like a baby and then acting like an old friend when a Carbine's employee give you an answer when he should have only give you a blame).
I do understand that some people are frustated, things moving too slowly for them or are not in the place they want them to be, but acting like this to try to monopolize staff's attention is as best counter-productive, and at worst, they will be bored of their playerbase and won't answer with as much heart as they do now.
 
Don't forget that, Wildstar is Carbine's baby, we are only nannies offering them some feedback.
 
 
I'm a little bit salty up here, but you're really starting to *cupcake* me off, as we're both grown up childs I'm trying to be as nice as possible.
 
 
However, you are right about some things:
1) Lack of Classlead feedback, one post a week would be nice, just to know what kind of changes you are pushing to the next PTR or Live build (we often saw new changes being pushed to live without being tested on the PTR).
 I'm not asking Carbine's staff to create an open discussion thread as this will take far too much time for them to gather proper feedback and separate cry babies from valuable ideas.
 
2) Recent "DNA" about PTR patch note, I don't know why they did that. They must understand that first people's reaction when they see a new PTR build is "what are the changes coming to my class ?". In the Drop 4 PTR build, the playerbase just spent 1 week to test every single class abilities and amp to test what changed and how much it changed.
Then we started giving you feedback without knowing if it was an intended change or a real bug, and that was a huge pain.
 
 
Dev's are listing, even when they shouldn't, I will just close my post with that:
- The way Carbine's handling their patch release is none of our business, and I do understand they can't handle all the ideas and feedback we provide in a timley manner, if we have to wait for a bi weekly patch for them to test some of the things who were not certified for the "Drop" release, it's fine.	
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Thanks for moving this over to GD, Psykins.
 
For the wider plans, patch cycle/process etc, there isn't a lot I can really add. I do know that we are trying to move our patch (not Drop!) schedule to being more regular so that bugs, issues, imbalances etc can be fixed faster. The big "Drops" are still going to be quarterly and this is where you'll see the bulk of new features coming into play, major overhauls that sort of thing.
 
Some things may still need to go into the larger drops that you think should go into a Patch, I'm not a technical expert but my understanding is that if this is the case there is a specific reason it has to wait. Either because it affects something else unreleased, or may have an impact on X, it has a lower priority than something else, etc. That may not be the case all of the time, but that's my general understanding.
 
The PTR is for testing. There shouldn't be any question about that. But does everything that gets flagged on the PTR get fixed before live? Sadly not always, for a number of reasons. Should we doing better at this? Absolutely.
 
Does the PTR help us with PR. In a way yes, but it's frequently kind of the opposite. For example, the Q1 Update (Drop 4 as folks generally call it) went onto PTR before the holidays and lots of saavy, awesome, community folk and fansites went in and did videos, overviews, guides, feature spotlights, etc. Which is fantastic for players and community, but is in a way a bit detrimental to the PR of the game as it means that info is out there and doing a big "reveal" loses some punch.
 
Putting Patch content on the PTR; I believe this is still the plan but If I remember that means we would need to take down the Drop 4 stuff as the "Patch" is an earlier build. Or something like that, as I mentioned earlier I am not particularly technical and clued up on the Live Ops style of things.
 
I hope that at least offers a bit more insight.
 
Based on comments since I started writing this, Patch Notes for PTR are coming. Again, holidays interrupted these being posted. Not good, I know, but a bit of a mad end of the year.
 
 
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"We're listening but we're the developers and you're the players so we have the trump card and we'll do what we think is best because listening to players earlier in the year got us into hotwater and our management is not helping"
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Hi,
Comitted raider from Codex, here (6 to 7 nights a week), I don't consider myself as best engineer or player in the world, but since I'm a "first day player" who've seen every single flame, taunt, and cry of hope on the offical forum or subreddit, I have to say that I'm not a big fan of the way you handle things.
 
You might be a comitted player too who only want the best for its class, I respect that, but most of the time, you're way too impulsive (hijacking threads, multi-posting, crying like a baby and then acting like an old friend when a Carbine's employee give you an answer when he should have only give you a blame).
I do understand that some people are frustated, things moving too slowly for them or are not in the place they want them to be, but acting like this to try to monopolize staff's attention is as best counter-productive, and at worst, they will be bored of their playerbase and won't answer with as much heart as they do now.
 
Don't forget that, Wildstar is Carbine's baby, we are only nannies offering them some feedback.
 
 
I'm a little bit salty up here, but you're really starting to *cupcake* me off, as we're both grown up childs I'm trying to be as nice as possible.
 
 
However, you are right about some things:
1) Lack of Classlead feedback, one post a week would be nice, just to know what kind of changes you are pushing to the next PTR or Live build (we often saw new changes being pushed to live without being tested on the PTR).
 I'm not asking Carbine's staff to create an open discussion thread as this will take far too much time for them to gather proper feedback and separate cry babies from valuable ideas.
 
2) Recent "DNA" about PTR patch note, I don't know why they did that. They must understand that first people's reaction when they see a new PTR build is "what are the changes coming to my class ?". In the Drop 4 PTR build, the playerbase just spent 1 week to test every single class abilities and amp to test what changed and how much it changed.
Then we started giving you feedback without knowing if it was an intended change or a real bug, and that was a huge pain.
 
 
Dev's are listing, even when they shouldn't, I will just close my post with that:
- The way Carbine's handling their patch release is none of our business, and I do understand they can't handle all the ideas and feedback we provide in a timley manner, if we have to wait for a bi weekly patch for them to test some of the things who were not certified for the "Drop" release, it's fine.
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Putting Patch content on the PTR; I believe this is still the plan but If I remember that means we would need to take down the Drop 4 stuff as the "Patch" is an earlier build. Or something like that, as I mentioned earlier I am not particularly technical and clued up on the Live Ops style of things.
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In my limited experience (TOR) the only issues addressed that were raised during PTR testing are exploits or game breaking.  The problem is that serious gameplay issues had to wait a whole new cycle to get addressed.  When your playerbase has (often vastly) superior theorycrafters than your in-house team classes get stuck in a bad spot and left there for months even though the issues were pointed out in detail.
 
Yes I understand that you're still figuring out your process and fixing these design gaffes may not be possible.  On the flip side common sense release engineering insists that code changes be delivered in a reversible state.  If something is flat out wrong, there should be no way it should make it to production and this is what frustrates me and I'll bet lots of other people.
 
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Does the PTR help us with PR. In a way yes, but it's frequently kind of the opposite. For example, the Q1 Update (Drop 4 as folks generally call it) went onto PTR before the holidays and lots of saavy, awesome, community folk and fansites went in and did videos, overviews, guides, feature spotlights, etc. Which is fantastic for players and community, but is in a way a bit detrimental to the PR of the game as it means that info is out there and doing a big "reveal" loses some punch.
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Yes I understand that you're still figuring out your process and fixing these design gaffes may not be possible.  On the flip side common sense release engineering insists that code changes be delivered in a reversible state.  If something is flat out wrong, there should be no way it should make it to production and this is what frustrates me and I'll bet lots of other people.
 
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Marketing "punch" is an awful excuse for withholding information.  If you have to have it, reserve it for expansions.  TOR's big huge failure is lack of communications so they can maintain "punch".  "The devs are listening" is a poor tagline.  Guess what?  All of them listen.  Very few of them communicate about anything other than fluff.
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Don't get me wrong, I am saying that we put stuff on the PTR despite knowing it would hurt us in the PR "punch" department. 
 
 
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Rename the ptr to the place where the people that make changes don't go with the people that can actusally give feedback on it.
 
Honestly I just don't understand the process here. As a player, I saw here: we're posting a ptr patch. On that patch I saw very very poor changes for the warrior class. As a feedback giver, I did the extensive testing. I spent the hours on the ptr during my Christmas break to provide valuable feedback. I provided valuable alternatives from the perspective of a PvP focused player. I am told to wait until the next ptr patch to give even more feedback as what we see is not set in stone and the devs are on break. I then see that there is a new ptr patch, that takes 0 input from any of the suggestions by any posters and testers, and that I am told this ptr patch doesn't have a good chance of changing.
 
I stated clearly that in my opinion, these changes will not address what people to consider op about warriors in PvP. They do however, make sweeping changes that deter any skillful use of the warrior in PvP. They make the class more linear, and allow less choice. They make the class less fun to play.
 
As a paid consumer of this service you are providing CRB_Anlath, you tell me why I should even consider still paying for this game, as you have proven your processes to be not only detrimental to the players, but detrimental as a whole.
 
Let me make one thing clear. You could make this game free to play and probably gain a few more players that don't know / don't care about this game. But to those of us that have spent any time with the failures and deceit of CRB, consider your perception. We are NOT recommending this game to our friends, because every opportunity you as a company have to make a positive and needed change, you go in the wrong direction.	
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Rename the ptr to the place where the people that make changes don't go with the people that can actusally give feedback on it.
 
Honestly I just don't understand the process here. As a player, I saw here: we're posting a ptr patch. On that patch I saw very very poor changes for the warrior class. As a feedback giver, I did the extensive testing. I spent the hours on the ptr during my Christmas break to provide valuable feedback. I provided valuable alternatives from the perspective of a PvP focused player. I am told to wait until the next ptr patch to give even more feedback as what we see is not set in stone and the devs are on break. I then see that there is a new ptr patch, that takes 0 input from any of the suggestions by any posters and testers, and that I am told this ptr patch doesn't have a good chance of changing.
 
I stated clearly that in my opinion, these changes will not address what people to consider op about warriors in PvP. They do however, make sweeping changes that deter any skillful use of the warrior in PvP. They make the class more linear, and allow less choice. They make the class less fun to play.
 
As a paid consumer of this service you are providing CRB_Anlath, you tell me why I should even consider still paying for this game, as you have proven your processes to be not only detrimental to the players, but detrimental as a whole.
 
Let me make one thing clear. You could make this game free to play and probably gain a few more players that don't know / don't care about this game. But to those of us that have spent any time with the failures and deceit of CRB, consider your perception. We are NOT recommending this game to our friends, because every opportunity you as a company have to make a positive and needed change, you go in the wrong direction.
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Yes, agreed. More vocal than I would have said it, but I agree. I simply ask that you don't specifically blame CRB_Anlath and leave him out of this, as his post was just what sparked this thread. He does his job and more so I'm sure. He is not directly responsible for anything being done on the PTR as he is a Community Manager
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He is indeed, but he is just the mediator, not the target.
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He's community relations and I'm part of the community. If he's not who I'm supposed to voice my concerns to, who is?
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Let's focus on the things that matter with this post, not anlath
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			I just think there's a lack of professionalism that needs to be rectified with CRB	
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I just think there's a lack of professionalism that needs to be rectified with CRB
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First of all i would like to say thanks to lots of the people here for taking the time to review and test the PTR in so much detail, it is very helpful and the information helps out everyone in the end.
 
Currently I think there is a litlte bit of confusion about the PTR and what role it plays. The PTR is there for the sole purporse of testing the latest release build of the game, like find bugs, check install / upgrade process, test new content etc. We are testing a build that has been designed and implemented.
 
Once the build is done its nearly impossible to change things on the fly or with feedback apart from bugs etc without a design and an implementation cycle if you want to hit any deadline ever. Why can they do bug fixes and not change things like core game systems and classes, it's because they have a design to work from and the devs just implement it. Developers don't just make things up they are given work to do from the system designers of course they will add feedback etc as they know how things really work :). 
 
I think the real issue most people are talking about is not really to do with the PTR or the implementation at all. You want to be involved in the DESIGN of the game, the classes and the sub systems. Really to make any feedback worth while or to stop the crazy long cycle of changes, feedback needs to be taking on in the design phase and not the testing PTR phase as its already too late.
 
I also think with all the handovers and changing of staff in the design teams and class leads what we are seeing is different peoples vision of the game getting all mixed up with no real clear vision of design and overall direction. This is how it seems to me its all seems a little lost at the moment esper information anyone :).
 
So my point really is don't bash the Devs (dont hate i am a dev :) or the PTR that process its correct in the real world. Start pushing to get involved in the design and general direction of the class or sub system you have problems with. Will it happen, well if they want to build on top of a great core game then it should. Things like class reps , open discussions about changes or ideas for changes,this will allow us the customer to get in on design ideas early and help make the changes before mistakes or changes we dont like are implemented. Backing up design changes with infomration is also needed, why a change was made etc how it benifits the game as whole sometimes things have to change we dont like but if a good reason is given people will be ok with it.
 
Just my view :)	
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Maybe the developers should have some kind of development roadmap etc so the players aren't clueless. Thats what a professional company would do.
 
I swear I think Carbine has no idea even what other people at Carbine are doing
 
Game has been around 6 months now and all we ever get are excuses and "don't blame the devs" for things that should've been changed in hotfixes
 
Its not like they meet deadlines as it is, whats wrong with waiting another month to fix things that you know are broken?	
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Maybe the developers should have some kind of development roadmap etc so the players aren't clueless. Thats what a professional company would do.
 
I swear I think Carbine has no idea even what other people at Carbine are doing
 
Game has been around 6 months now and all we ever get are excuses and "don't blame the devs" for things that should've been changed in hotfixes
 
Its not like they meet deadlines as it is, whats wrong with waiting another month to fix things that you know are broken?
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First of all i would like to say thanks to lots of the people here for taking the time to review and test the PTR in so much detail, it is very helpful and the information helps out everyone in the end.
 
Currently I think there is a litlte bit of confusion about the PTR and what role it plays. The PTR is there for the sole purporse of testing the latest release build of the game, like find bugs, check install / upgrade process, test new content etc. We are testing a build that has been designed and implemented.
 
Once the build is done its nearly impossible to change things on the fly or with feedback apart from bugs etc without a design and an implementation cycle if you want to hit any deadline ever. Why can they do bug fixes and not change things like core game systems and classes, it's because they have a design to work from and the devs just implement it. Developers don't just make things up they are given work to do from the system designers of course they will add feedback etc as they know how things really work :). 
 
I think the real issue most people are talking about is not really to do with the PTR or the implementation at all. You want to be involved in the DESIGN of the game, the classes and the sub systems. Really to make any feedback worth while or to stop the crazy long cycle of changes, feedback needs to be taking on in the design phase and not the testing PTR phase as its already too late.
 
I also think with all the handovers and changing of staff in the design teams and class leads what we are seeing is different peoples vision of the game getting all mixed up with no real clear vision of design and overall direction. This is how it seems to me its all seems a little lost at the moment esper information anyone :).
 
So my point really is don't bash the Devs (dont hate i am a dev :) or the PTR that process its correct in the real world. Start pushing to get involved in the design and general direction of the class or sub system you have problems with. Will it happen, well if they want to build on top of a great core game then it should. Things like class reps , open discussions about changes or ideas for changes,this will allow us the customer to get in on design ideas early and help make the changes before mistakes or changes we dont like are implemented. Backing up design changes with infomration is also needed, why a change was made etc how it benifits the game as whole sometimes things have to change we dont like but if a good reason is given people will be ok with it.
 
Just my view :)
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It wont be the DEVs with a roadmap...it'll be the people responsible for the classes etc with that.  The DEVs are the doers, not the planning people who never have the finger pointed at them....yes I'm a DEV :P
 
Seriously though, I highly doubt the DEVs will be prioritising fixes, they'll give estimates on times for fixes and a few quick wins may be picked out and others shoved under the carpet but not by the DEVs.	
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It wont be the DEVs with a roadmap...it'll be the people responsible for the classes etc with that.  The DEVs are the doers, not the planning people who never have the finger pointed at them....yes I'm a DEV :P
 
Seriously though, I highly doubt the DEVs will be prioritising fixes, they'll give estimates on times for fixes and a few quick wins may be picked out and others shoved under the carpet but not by the DEVs.
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			why should any company give out their plans? i mean really? i tell you what lets go ask *cupcake*ing Microsoft their plan cus YOLO...what planet do you guys live on XD	
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why should any company give out their plans? i mean really? i tell you what lets go ask *cupcake*ing Microsoft their plan cus YOLO...what planet do you guys live on XD
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Their plans are to release Windows 10 early Spring 2015. they just announced a new laptop partnering and a new tablet. This is taken right from their website.
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Oh, here you go then. :)  That's what you were looking for?
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Oh, here you go then. :)  That's what you were looking for?
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That is just a consolidation of information they put up after the PTR vent live with Drop 4, not plans for future content.
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I feel like you guys rather missed the joke...
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I guess what we're asking for is, "How does the class team view the classes, what is their vision, and in what direction do they wish to take them?"
 
Not, hey guys, we finally released things that other MMOs have upon release, and we've made some content based upon feedback people have been giving us for at least 6 months.
 
There's reason why people don't post that link more often, and that's because it's filled with a bunch of junk.
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Here I'll give you an example:
 
"Hi, I'm the warrior class lead, here's what we've seen so far:"
 
We find warriors to be too strong in a 2v2 situation, so we've decided to nerf their class in all of the wrong places, here's what we've done to make that possible:
 
1.  We've given the warrior more choice by forcing them to incorporate tremor on their bar.  You know that skill that no one uses because it goes against the playstyle?  Yea, well we've made it so that you have to use it now, even if you don't want to!
2.  We've taken away the warriors survivability.  Now you're just left with heavy armor in the midst of all almost every other class having some sort of armor penetration on their main ability. We saw that warrior / healer was strong in the 2v2 format, so we've decided to make them non-viable in all other formats too.  We've accomplished this by taking a strong AMP, and making it into a worthless amp.  We've also nerfed their runspeed upon dash, as we want them to be stalkers without stealth. 
3.  We nerfed detonate because an extra 2000 damage on the innate was OP?  Why?  Because critting for 7k 4x in a row on the rampage reset was not.
 
So that being said, let me just say that I can't do anything about it, as the PTR testing actually has players testing it, and we don't want their feedback.  What we do want, is a bunch of our QA (widely regarded as the best in the biz, have you seen the other drops?) to be the only ones testing it.
 
Also, just so you guys complaining about "pvp balance," feel better about yoursel, we've also buffed your dots, and put a dot on that ability you are now forced to use called tremor.  We did this just to spite all of the stalkers that are putting their noses into warrior threads because they don't understand the game.
 
 
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See how easy that was to do?  It only took me 5 minutes to do and I'm not even paid to communicate!	
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			I'm sorry, but was humor only allowed when you tried to do it?	
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#WTBSarcasmFont, lol
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I'm sorry, but was humor only allowed when you tried to do it?
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I'm not trying to get Carbine to have a rational discussion with me about their long term future plans.  ;)
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A quick thought on why bugs found on PTR aren't always fixed before they go live:
1) MMOs are complex pieces of software
2) any change in code, even small, simple ones, can produce unwanted results somewhere else, in sometimes completely unrelated pieces of code
3) that's why you do regression testing, where you check EVERYTHING after a change
4) checking everything thoroughly in a complex piece of software takes a long time or a lot of people; this is the good ol' "money, time, quality: pick the two you want"
5) to keep on schedule and within budget, you sometimes have to bite the bullet: you acknowledge a bug, make a note of it, put it into your bug database, add it to the known bugs list you publish, and release software with it, especially if it's not something that  "breaks" anything too badly.
 
That last part is a judgement call and reasonable people can disagree at what point a bug is a big deal. I'm pretty sure, Carbine isn't putting bugs into the code just to annoy us. There might be other reasons...
http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1995-11-13/	
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{| class="blockquote"
I'm not trying to get Carbine to have a rational discussion with me about their long term future plans.  ;)
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{| class="blockquote"
A quick thought on why bugs found on PTR aren't always fixed before they go live:
1) MMOs are complex pieces of software
2) any change in code, even small, simple ones, can produce unwanted results somewhere else, in sometimes completely unrelated pieces of code
3) that's why you do regression testing, where you check EVERYTHING after a change
4) checking everything thoroughly in a complex piece of software takes a long time or a lot of people; this is the good ol' "money, time, quality: pick the two you want"
5) to keep on schedule and within budget, you sometimes have to bite the bullet: you acknowledge a bug, make a note of it, put it into your bug database, add it to the known bugs list you publish, and release software with it, especially if it's not something that  "breaks" anything too badly.
 
That last part is a judgement call and reasonable people can disagree at what point a bug is a big deal. I'm pretty sure, Carbine isn't putting bugs into the code just to annoy us. There might be other reasons...
http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1995-11-13/
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			Drop 3's information was so frustrating because it kept being pushed back further and further. It wasn't the access to the information that did it.	
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Even just near-term would work. Something like.
 
February 2015
- Drop 4
  - DS20
  - Vet Shiphands
  - Itemization
- [insert arbitrary timeframe] Patch
  - Finally fixing Archivos gear
  - More decor added to renown vendor
 
March 2015
- [insert arbitrary timeframe] Patch
  - Moar PvP incentives
  - Reworking how rating works again
  - Class balancing
    - [links to appropriate class pages idicating the direction of future changes]
 
June 2015
- Drop 5
  - New raid!
  - Itemization tweak to incorporate new gear
  - Reputation mounts!
 
Not exactly like, but something more than a trail of breadcrumbs that leads into a black hole.
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Drop 3's information was so frustrating because it kept being pushed back further and further. It wasn't the access to the information that did it.
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Rename the ptr to the place where the people that make changes don't go with the people that can actusally give feedback on it.
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I don't wonder anything.  This is the point.  You are being unreasonable in that you think you are the kind of person you expect them to go to for quality feedback.  They do have those people.  They do check these things.  But re-read your posts.  Are you really the kind of person whose feedback they can trust?  Are you the kind of person they would want to give information to before it drops?  Do you sound like a person Carbine can count on for measured, quality, broad-spectrum feedback on balancing issues between all of the classes?
 
I mean, personally, I don't think you do, and you can take that for what it's worth.  If I were Carbine, I'd find someone else to talk to with a much more measured outlook.  Certainly someone who doesn't throw a three-thread war over every piece of information they're fed.  You've already made sure Moja knows better than to come to the Warrior forum for his feedback or to keep you guys in the loop.
 
I'm only really surprised that you seem surprised.  You're really doing everything in your power to make sure Carbine doesn't tell us what's going on.
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This has been said on every MMO message board I've ever been on.
 
I don't know why, but it's hardly something new or unique to Carbine. Perhaps by the time it gets out to the PTR it's too late to change it in any fundamental way... I'm not sure.
 
But the lack of response to feedback for the PTR and not enough communication about future plans is a complaint I see in every MMO out there. So either everyone is wrong, or else they have a reason for it, and most people just don't or won't understand why.
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I guess the problem just shows itself when the PTR comes out in such a buggy / poor state.
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Again, same thing I hear on every other MMO's boards. I mean how many posts do you see on avg on the WoW forums about bugs? Last time played a ton. The other thing I hear everywhere, is how just about every other game out there is less buggy then that one. Every game it seems has people who have had either no or next to no issues with every other game ever produced, and are shocked!!! that this one is in the state it is in. If they would just be more like Game/Developer X then this wouldn't happen.
  
 
I don't trust any company. They either provide me with a good or service I think is worth the price, as is. Or else I don't do business with them. If they change things and the product or service is no longer worth the price, I then again stop doing business with them.
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What I really want to know about Wildstar is what their actual GAME STRATEGY is.
 
Like where is this game headed?
 
Is it gonna be made more and more into a wow clone, with the exact same types of currency (glory) and EASY content, so people can get that instant gratificiations or will we still see challenging, one difficulty level across the board?
 
I fear this game is going down a route where it will no longer have a niche player base. The slighty more hardcore and committed ones, but they try to please as many people as possible thus creating yet another generic MMO with no real selling point other than the telegraph system and being SCI-FI. They might get more players for a while, but I don't believe this is the right route for this game and I know that a lot of the current top raiders (top, heh -  DS raiders) will leave if the game becomes too easy.	
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{| class="blockquote"
What I really want to know about Wildstar is what their actual GAME STRATEGY is.
 
Like where is this game headed?
 
Is it gonna be made more and more into a wow clone, with the exact same types of currency (glory) and EASY content, so people can get that instant gratificiations or will we still see challenging, one difficulty level across the board?
 
I fear this game is going down a route where it will no longer have a niche player base. The slighty more hardcore and committed ones, but they try to please as many people as possible thus creating yet another generic MMO with no real selling point other than the telegraph system and being SCI-FI. 
----
			
I find this thread frustrating. People demanding to receive a shareholder's report as if they were direct shareholders of NcSoft or Carbine.
 
Carbine and NcSoft are in the business of making money. WildStar is their means of making money. We are lucky to receive a product that was passionately developed by Carbine. It is by all means their baby, made through their effort. They are the ones who took upon the risk of creating it. They dont owe me/us a detailed business plan as I am not their business partner. They don't need my approval to do what they want with it.
 
I am their customer, and as such they do owe me what i paíd for, a game with ongoing support and maintenance. THAT i am getting, i might not always agree with their decisions or how long it takes them to address something but matter of fact is they address it somehow (not always hitting the mark). The effort is there though.
 
I don't know of any other MMO I'd rather be playing. You want to know what WildStar is about? Play the game, their design intent is plastered all over it. 
 
As long as Carbine remains true to Carbine I am happy. I bought Carbine's game not random person on the internet's game. The moment I no longer support Carbine, the game direction they project through updates (or lack of), or their business model then I will stop consuming their product.
 
 
Lame thread is lame.	
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{| class="blockquote"
I find this thread frustrating. People demanding to receive a shareholder's report as if they were direct shareholders of NcSoft or Carbine.
 
Carbine and NcSoft are in the business of making money. WildStar is their means of making money. We are lucky to receive a product that was passionately developed by Carbine. It is by all means their baby, made through their effort. They are the ones who took upon the risk of creating it. They dont owe me/us a detailed business plan as I am not their business partner. They don't need my approval to do what they want with it.
 
I am their customer, and as such they do owe me what i paíd for, a game with ongoing support and maintenance. THAT i am getting, i might not always agree with their decisions or how long it takes them to address something but matter of fact is they address it somehow (not always hitting the mark). The effort is there though.
 
I don't know of any other MMO I'd rather be playing. You want to know what WildStar is about? Play the game, their design intent is plastered all over it.
 
As long as Carbine remains true to Carbine I am happy. I bought Carbine's game not random person on the internet's game. The moment I no longer support Carbine, the game direction they project through updates (or lack of), or their business model then I will stop consuming their product.
 
 
Lame thread is lame.
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{| class="blockquote"
I find this thread frustrating. People demanding to receive a shareholder's report as if they were direct shareholders of NcSoft or Carbine.
 
Carbine and NcSoft are in the business of making money. WildStar is their means of making money. We are lucky to receive a product that was passionately developed by Carbine. It is by all means their baby, made through their effort. They are the ones who took upon the risk of creating it. They dont owe me/us a detailed business plan as I am not their business partner. They don't need my approval to do what they want with it.
 
I am their customer, and as such they do owe me what i paíd for, a game with ongoing support and maintenance. THAT i am getting, i might not always agree with their decisions or how long it takes them to address something but matter of fact is they address it somehow (not always hitting the mark). The effort is there though.
 
I don't know of any other MMO I'd rather be playing. You want to know what WildStar is about? Play the game, their design intent is plastered all over it.
 
As long as Carbine remains true to Carbine I am happy. I bought Carbine's game not random person on the internet's game. The moment I no longer support Carbine, the game direction they project through updates (or lack of), or their business model then I will stop consuming their product.
 
 
Lame thread is lame.
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If as you say
 
"All we want (in a nutshell) is to see patch notes before the PTR goes up. We want our feedback to be responded to, especially when it holds weight."
 
 
Then on that case as Anlath said:
 
"Based on comments since I started writing this, Patch Notes for PTR are coming. Again, holidays interrupted these being posted. Not good, I know, but a bit of a mad end of the year."
 
And
 
The PTR is for testing. There shouldn't be any question about that. But does everything that gets flagged on the PTR get fixed before live? Sadly not always, for a number of reasons. Should we doing better at this? Absolutely.
 
 
So that settles all the questions! As per a Carbine representative on the first page. Can we move on?
 
The End.	
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If as you say
 
"All we want (in a nutshell) is to see patch notes before the PTR goes up. We want our feedback to be responded to, especially when it holds weight."
 
 
Then on that case as Anlath said:
 
"Based on comments since I started writing this, Patch Notes for PTR are coming. Again, holidays interrupted these being posted. Not good, I know, but a bit of a mad end of the year."
 
And
 
The PTR is for testing. There shouldn't be any question about that. But does everything that gets flagged on the PTR get fixed before live? Sadly not always, for a number of reasons. Should we doing better at this? Absolutely.
 
 
So that settles all the questions! As per a Carbine representative on the first page. Can we move on?
 
The End.
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Yes, it can be frustrating. Dealing with any company or service will lead to moments of frustration. That is an unfortunate reality.
 
Again though.
 
"Patch Notes for PTR are coming. Again, holidays interrupted these being posted. Not good, I know, but a bit of a mad end of the year."
 
So, once the patch notes come we will know in more detail.
 
As long as they deliver them, its all good.	
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{| class="blockquote"
Yes, it can be frustrating. Dealing with any company or service will lead to moments of frustration. That is an unfortunate reality.
 
Again though.
 
"Patch Notes for PTR are coming. Again, holidays interrupted these being posted. Not good, I know, but a bit of a mad end of the year."
 
So, once the patch notes come we will know in more detail.
 
As long as they deliver them, its all good.
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Don't worry, we'll post the patch notes just in time for drop 4 to be locked in, with no changes able to come!
 
Seriously, we're not idiots here guy, we know how this stuff is supposed to work.  Unfortunately, it is not.
 
What's the point of a PTR realm, if you have to go figure out all the changes yourself?  What good is trying to test anything in PvP when you don't know for sure if they've made some kind of underlying change to the pvp formula?
 
What good is testing an ability if you don't know whether they've raised the base damage or they've raised the stat scaling?
 
Do you kind of understand now?    The ONLY purpose the PTR served was so that Timetravel and the other devs could test the tuning of the 20man vs 40man.  Other than that, what good was it?	
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I sometimes wonder what people think the PTR is actually for. While it would be nice to have it be a place to see whats coming and have input on that, I understand that it is NOT for that purpose. The reason is to test a build or portions thereof. To see what works or breaks when its all put together. While the devs are interested in what people find and think. They are not going to change things because of what we think. I have seen more than one post from devs that what you see is what your getting other than some small tweaks or fixes.
 
So then notes until everything is final are useless unless your trying to one up everyone else before the next drop hits. Or, your just looking for a reason to *cupcake*....	
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I believe it is obvious that the PTR is there so that Carbine can test it, not so that the players can test it. We are the lab rats in the experiment, not the people running it. 
 
Player feedback is a bonus (welcomed I am sure) but Carbine pulls their own data from the players active in the ptr to fact check.	
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I sometimes wonder what people think the PTR is actually for. While it would be nice to have it be a place to see whats coming and have input on that, I understand that it is NOT for that purpose. The reason is to test a build or portions thereof. To see what works or breaks when its all put together. While the devs are interested in what people find and think. They are not going to change things because of what we think. I have seen more than one post from devs that what you see is what your getting other than some small tweaks or fixes.
 
So then notes until everything is final are useless unless your trying to one up everyone else before the next drop hits. Or, your just looking for a reason to *cupcake*....
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			If this is the case can we have a community manager remove the PTR GD sub-forum please? It's pointless for us to be able to post there.	
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I believe it is obvious that the PTR is there so that Carbine can test it, not so that the players can test it. We are the lab rats in the experiment, not the people running it.
 
Player feedback is a bonus (welcomed I am sure) but Carbine pulls their own data from the players active in the ptr to fact check.
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Not pointless. It helps out the devs and folk. However, feedback won't be applied real time but it helps in the long game, which I am lead to believe Carbine is in for, the long game.
 
So yeah, no need to remove it, it has its place. Let the devs do their thing, we talk about it, they apply it as they see fit, rinse and repeat. Slow and ongoing process, it is okay as long as it is ongoing.	
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Ah, I see that the Public Test Realm is not for the public to test.
 
I tested, I gave my feedback, and I found that the designs were incomplete, poorly developed, and don't take into consideration pvp at all.
 
If I'm simply testing for bugs, then the bug is that the developers are allowed to make decisions without taking player feedback.  We all have seen how well their decisions have panned out so far. Please fix.
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