120715-carbine-whats-your-strategy-here-page-3

Page 1, Page 2, Page 3
== Content ==
			
Yes Vic, I understand that there is a lot of work to be done, and there are many solutions etc to fix pvp / pve by ways you've listed, and others that I've listed in the past.  What I also understand, is that in order to fix some of the mistakes in the short term, a few changes can be made that repair issues without taking up a lot of developer time.  My general proposal of any change I make is made to make the biggest sweeping changes toward balance, fun, and activity, without sucking a lot of developer time and money.
 
In the mean time, here's the process that I ask for from people like Moja and the class leads:
 
When changes are made to a class, that affect both PvP and PvE,
 
if it is better for PvE, and doesn't affect PvP, make the change!
if it is better for PvE, and tweaks PvP, make the change and monitor feedback closely!
if it is better for PvE, and deeply impacts PvP for the better, great change!
If it is better for PvE, and deeply impacts PvP for the worse, throw it out.
 
It's possible to make changes that don't break things.  Part of making those changes, means considering how they will affect all players and all aspects of the game.
 
Vic, we saw a patch that alters PvE while simultaneously making massive, sweeping changes to PvP for Warrior.  At the point in which player / pvp feedback could be given, it was said that it was too late. 
 
So, my argument here, is that we should break that pattern.  If management of Carbine / the developers themselves rely on well written General Discussion "treatises" to understand their shortcomings, then well, we're all screwed, regardless of how much I constructively post / roleplay warrior and rampage all of these forums.  If Carbine starts taking an active role in consuming player PvP feedback, or starts asking the right questions, we'll see a better turn of events.
 
You see Vic, I think a lot of people at Carbine love to level, quest, play with friends in daily zones, raid, make costumes, etc.  I think that testing if quest X gives reward X, 100% of the time, is fairly easy to "QA."  I do not think Carbine has anyone thinking about PvP, testing PvP, or even making well thought out decisions about how some PvE changes affect PvP (LOL RNGSLOTS).
 
So that's why, when I state something like, "If it changes PvE, but breaks PvP, throw it out," because that's what is happening here.  The PvP voice is not being heard.  That being said, the PvE changes were quite bland and the opposite direction that you want LAS to go, but that's another issue.
 
Here, I'll give you a solid example for the warrior in layman's terms, since that's my wheelhouse and I'll just ask you to trust me that it's right:
 
Vigor AMP : Live : Dashing grants a beacon for 10s. Beacon: Increases incoming healing by 7%. Stacks 5x.  (35% healing uptime if managed well)
Vigor AMP : PTR : Dashing grants a beach for 4s. Beacon: Increase incoming healing by 5%. Stacks 2x.  (10% healing increase for 5s if you double dash)
 
You can see the remarkable change in power and how it will affect PvP.  Now, there's a huge post discussing the balance of that ability in PvP, so we'll leave it there.  But let's take a look at what happened.  It looks like whoever designed that change just wanted to make that skill a PvE skill for tanks in line with other tanking AMPs, without taking into consideration the effect it has on PvP balance.  Why not tone it down by half first?  Why not keep it unique to the warrior class, instead of making it a standard (useless amp) across all 3 tank classes?  Why not something like this :
 
Vigor : Functions like recklessness.  When within 10m of an enemy, gain a 7.5% healing beacon for 8s, can only be triggered every 10s, stacks 5x.  This puts that AMP back into a unique role, while making it an option for both PvP / PvE.  As a tank, I understand you definitely wouldn't want to double dash when in need of heals, as it makes your healer have a harder time hitting you.  Why not a 7.5%, 8s out of 10s flat increase that costs 4 amps.  I think a reasonable warrior tank would argue that it is not overpowered.  This change also brings sweeping balance to the PvP arena, where instead of having flat 35% increased healing, you have increased healing when in melee range of an enemy, and have the potential to increase your healing beacon, based on your potential incoming damage.  This allows for smart play, without breaking either side of the game.  That's just a suggestion that took me less than 5 minutes to think up, and its already better than the option we're served.
 
So maybe that's why the former class lead is gone, because he doesn't belong in the job, but who knows.  All I know is I see a pattern of poor changes, without any kind of player feedback or PvP consideration.
 
 
... and I don't want a PvE only game.
 
tldr; make changes if they're good and don't break things, throw them out when they're bad.  don't make this a pve only game. make changes that are easy and less time consuming than others in the short term, and hold CRB accountable for poor QA / inattention to PvP concerns.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yes Vic, I understand that there is a lot of work to be done, and there are many solutions etc to fix pvp / pve by ways you've listed, and others that I've listed in the past.  What I also understand, is that in order to fix some of the mistakes in the short term, a few changes can be made that repair issues without taking up a lot of developer time.  My general proposal of any change I make is made to make the biggest sweeping changes toward balance, fun, and activity, without sucking a lot of developer time and money.
 
In the mean time, here's the process that I ask for from people like Moja and the class leads:
 
When changes are made to a class, that affect both PvP and PvE,
 
if it is better for PvE, and doesn't affect PvP, make the change!
if it is better for PvE, and tweaks PvP, make the change and monitor feedback closely!
if it is better for PvE, and deeply impacts PvP for the better, great change!
If it is better for PvE, and deeply impacts PvP for the worse, throw it out.
 
It's possible to make changes that don't break things.  Part of making those changes, means considering how they will affect all players and all aspects of the game.
 
Vic, we saw a patch that alters PvE while simultaneously making massive, sweeping changes to PvP for Warrior.  At the point in which player / pvp feedback could be given, it was said that it was too late. 
 
So, my argument here, is that we should break that pattern.  If management of Carbine / the developers themselves rely on well written General Discussion "treatises" to understand their shortcomings, then well, we're all screwed, regardless of how much I constructively post / roleplay warrior and rampage all of these forums.  If Carbine starts taking an active role in consuming player PvP feedback, or starts asking the right questions, we'll see a better turn of events.
 
You see Vic, I think a lot of people at Carbine love to level, quest, play with friends in daily zones, raid, make costumes, etc.  I think that testing if quest X gives reward X, 100% of the time, is fairly easy to "QA."  I do not think Carbine has anyone thinking about PvP, testing PvP, or even making well thought out decisions about how some PvE changes affect PvP (LOL RNGSLOTS).
 
So that's why, when I state something like, "If it changes PvE, but breaks PvP, throw it out," because that's what is happening here.  The PvP voice is not being heard.  That being said, the PvE changes were quite bland and the opposite direction that you want LAS to go, but that's another issue.
 
Here, I'll give you a solid example for the warrior in layman's terms, since that's my wheelhouse and I'll just ask you to trust me that it's right:
 
Vigor AMP : Live : Dashing grants a beacon for 10s. Beacon: Increases incoming healing by 7%. Stacks 5x.  (35% healing uptime if managed well)
Vigor AMP : PTR : Dashing grants a beach for 4s. Beacon: Increase incoming healing by 5%. Stacks 2x.  (10% healing increase for 5s if you double dash)
 
You can see the remarkable change in power and how it will affect PvP.  Now, there's a huge post discussing the balance of that ability in PvP, so we'll leave it there.  But let's take a look at what happened.  It looks like whoever designed that change just wanted to make that skill a PvE skill for tanks in line with other tanking AMPs, without taking into consideration the effect it has on PvP balance.  Why not tone it down by half first?  Why not keep it unique to the warrior class, instead of making it a standard (useless amp) across all 3 tank classes?  Why not something like this :
 
Vigor : Functions like recklessness.  When within 10m of an enemy, gain a 7.5% healing beacon for 8s, can only be triggered every 10s, stacks 5x.  This puts that AMP back into a unique role, while making it an option for both PvP / PvE.  As a tank, I understand you definitely wouldn't want to double dash when in need of heals, as it makes your healer have a harder time hitting you.  Why not a 7.5%, 8s out of 10s flat increase that costs 4 amps.  I think a reasonable warrior tank would argue that it is not overpowered.  This change also brings sweeping balance to the PvP arena, where instead of having flat 35% increased healing, you have increased healing when in melee range of an enemy, and have the potential to increase your healing beacon, based on your potential incoming damage.  This allows for smart play, without breaking either side of the game.  That's just a suggestion that took me less than 5 minutes to think up, and its already better than the option we're served.
 
So maybe that's why the former class lead is gone, because he doesn't belong in the job, but who knows.  All I know is I see a pattern of poor changes, without any kind of player feedback or PvP consideration.
 
 
... and I don't want a PvE only game.
 
tldr; make changes if they're good and don't break things, throw them out when they're bad.  don't make this a pve only game. make changes that are easy and less time consuming than others in the short term, and hold CRB accountable for poor QA / inattention to PvP concerns.
----
			
After having a bit more of my morning passed, I decided to give you a re-read and hit a few more topics here.
 
There's a lot of emphasis on balance here, (including my previous post) that I think doesn't really show the issue.  Balance is always going to change patch to patch, etc.  It's called a meta shift in PvP.
 
What we really need to focus on here, is the fact that things are BROKEN, and they need to be fixed.  PvP core systems are broken, PvP class change processes (what sparked this thread), and PvP feedback is broken.  We're not just dealing with a lack of content for a certain consumer group (which we are, 1 arena, 1 useless BG, 2 gear sets, etc), nor are we just dealing with the lack of a PvP leaderboard (which we are), nor are we just dealing with a lack of incentives to enjoy the PvP aspect of the game.
 
We're dealing with a tremendous, overwhelming lack of effort, being put into a major selling point of this game, and that is PvP.  Each of these posts I made are, as you'd call it, a symptom of the underlying issue, and that's Carbine not caring about PvP players #Kanye.
 
Now, we've tried to develop both long and short posts for Carbine to read. We've banded together as a community and worked aside (the majority) of our differences to come together and challenge the mindset that PvP is just an afterthought of PvE.  We have shown from effort, and others have shown with their wallet, that PvP needs to be taken into consideration.
 
Vic, we're not asking for a giant overhaul of PvP / PvE abilities because we don't think they need to be altered to affect both differently.  That's a fundamental game design that I don't see CRB's developer pool crafting and implementing in a relevant amount of time.   What we're asking from a balance standpoint, is just adding the little qualifier of, "does it *cupcake* over PvP," at the end of every decision, and not making changes that don't pass that test.
 
Do you know that the same issues that people have been quitting over 6 months ago, are still in the game?  Do you understand that the same processes are still in place (as evident by the warrior changes)?  Do you understand that we're not even seeing a development roadmap, any kind of attention to PvP, and that the best we have to go on is, "we're going to have a PvP townhall soon," hosted by one of the CMs who is notorious for a lack of effort toward the community, and one who spends the company dime running around in circles on a stream for an hour while producing 10 minutes of useful content?  Do you see how this is a virtual slap in the face to that part of the community.
 
There is a bit of a divide here in our way of thinking.  I'm one of the last of the PvP focused players Vic.  I'm almost the last PvP poster who advocates PvP as a priority in this game.  I'm one of the last constructive voices for PvP. What do you think is going to happen in 1 month from now, when the rest of the PvP populace quits the game because they have to schedule PvP on the weekend, and they find the raids to be the same ol' same ol' in MMOs?
 
VicVanMeter, Warhound is dead.  That's the PvP server pal.  That's a direct result of Carbine being slow to action, reading treatise's about PvP / PvE server nonsense, and refusing to make the necessary changes required to keep this game active and alive.
 
...  but hey, we're getting veteran shiphands to do once a week, so that's nice.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
That's the problem.  EVERYTHING affects EVERYTHING.  The idea of things that happen in PVE and don't affect PVP or vice versa is simply not ever going to happen.
 
I mean, let's take your vigor example into consideration.  Why didn't they stage it in half first?  You think it goes too far, but you are, of course, a warrior in PVP.  This is a change made for the benefit of all the other classes in PVE.  Your idea about why your voice isn't being heard isn't taking that into account.  The idea that "it breaks PVP" actually means, "it makes PVP slightly more difficult for a warrior, and I don't think Warriors are due for a nerf of that nature in PVP".  There are a lot of reasons that could be added, the first one springing to mind is that they may want to bring healing back up in PVP but feel they need to retune abilities like Vigor because it's a multiplicative jump.  Imagine they're listening and taking you seriously, and in an upcoming patch healing in PVP is going to be greatly increased.  It could be they originally did the healing nerf figuring that all PVP builds would then include a lot of abilities like Vigor.  From what I've seen, not all have (and that seems to separate invincible 2s and 3s from the ones that lose), which could have left healing undertuned.  So it's very possible healing is going to be brought back up, but can't be with warriors receiving as much as a 35% healing increase in heavy armor.
 
Sounds like a pretty good argument for PvP / Development Roadmap 
 
Another good reason that could be happening is a PVE reason, in the same vein.  It could be that returning healing could suddenly throw PVE out of whack if tanks are picking up vigor.  Essentially, the way you're angry that you might be encouraged to have tremor, they could essentially make vigor an essential skill at that level of healing uptime.  It could be that they have data that vigor itself in PVE can be used with another upcoming change.  Another PVP reason I've seen thrown around by non-warriors is that vigor is just too painless for that level of healing increase, so you may actually not be even fighting PVE players, but PVP players from different classes.  Another PVE reason I've seen thrown around is that same idea, that it's far too easy to make a warrior, DPS or tank, invincible compared to everyone else and, once the threat generation issues are corrected, all anyone will ever play are warriors.
 
My argument to the tremor changes etc is not that I don't like tremor (which I don't), it's that they're forcing abilities to be used on the LAS.  They're removing choice. That's opposite to the design I was sold when I purchased this game, as every slot should be a choice.
 
I tend to take the view that most of the additions are coming in to balance warriors in PVE, since they're unmistakably overpowered there.  But there are plenty of reasons this could be implemented to good effect by Carbine and I have no reason to think that's not going to be the case.  And that's just one example you're trying to bring up where I'm not entirely sure I should throw a fit about it.
 
I definitely wouldn't say that's something that wouldn't benefit a tank if it was to remain.  You don't think holding a dash button and clicking forward, then back is going to really affect healing in a coordinated group?  I don't use it because I'm built up through Power Link, but it's not hard to do.  If healing is increased anywhere, yes, that could be managed.
 
I'm more interested in if they're simply going to raise healing power soon and thus need to go in and reduce the highest peaks of the healing AMPs.  That seems logical considering how long people have been complaining about the lack of healing power, especially in PVP.  But all you give in your example is, "This is what happens only to warriors in PVP, this could happen instead, isn't that better?"
 
Sounds like a good argument for a PvP / Development Roadmap.  Don't you think I understand the larger picture here Vic?  You're confusing my examples of perspective with assuming that's my only one.
 
How do I know?  PVP doesn't just happen with Warriors.  How do I know this isn't needed sorely by people PVPing other classes?  It certainly doesn't seem to be breaking the other PVPer's hearts that Vigor is being downtuned in arena teams.  How do I know other changes that might be being pushed in drop four to the healing classes doesn't make this entire point moot?  I don't.  All you've talked about are warriors in an exclusive PVP vacuum.  I have no other context by which to judge how that change fits into the broader PVP landscape, or, even if you're 100% right about the nerf being just that, that PVP warriors didn't need a nerf.
 
I know this because the Warrior isn't my only class.  In PvP, I play/played spellslinger esper and medic at a high level also.  I make every suggestion about warriors, with the knowledge of how they interact from a warrior / other class point of view.  It's a rather unique perspective I have and was one of the reasons I spent so much time leveling classes in this game so unfriendly to alts.
 
And that's just that one change to Vigor.
 
So, that's part of why I'm saying all this to you and making the suggestion I am making.  At least if effects were separated, you would be speaking about PVP in a PVP vacuum.  At least then you would need to just square that against all the other changes being made to PVP effects in other classes.
 
You're asking me to make the assumption that Carbine doesn't test PVP at all based on the idea that Warriors are taking a hit that may hurt their current builds in PVP if all other things remain the same.  If you want to make that point, you need to be more than just a PVP warrior advocating that one position.  The game is a lot bigger than PVP and warriors, and right now I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt by saying that the best change that could possibly be made would be to separate PVP and PVE effects so that you at least don't have to argue with them anymore in terms of balancing.
 
 
I'm not saying I don't believe you, I just don't think you've provided anywhere near enough global context to make any point about a PVP warrior's place in it.  You're arguing a very narrow band as if it exists on an island when it wouldn't even exist on that island WAS only based around PVP.  How does vigor exist in the broader context of changes being made to class balancing across the board?
 
Vic, you don't have to argue tell me about broad spectrum pvp balance.  I'm the guy you go to ask those questions.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
There are large points to be made, and the warrior forum and threads are simply a platform to help others understand those points.  Yes, there are reasons those changes are made.  I have quite the handle on all of those things.
 
What I'm suggesting is that there's a fundamental flaw with Carbine PvP development, that shows its face in things like those PvP changes, and the end result are very low subscription numbers, and an almost empty PvP scene.
----
			
Here let me put this in simpler to follow terms.  As a fundamental design flaw, that happens to coincide with PvP:
 
LAS has 8 abilities.  Limited Action Slots are meant for hard choices, between skills that are effective.
Drop 4 Warrior Changes effectively remove 1 more choice from the LAS.  They remove choice from the AMP.
 
Tremor / rampage changes make it necessary to add tremor to the "rotation."  Rotations are nice in games with 15-20 skills.  Not so much in games with 8 ability LAS.
 
What I want for the LAS system, and what I "thought," was the design, was to make each individual skill have a purpose.  Something like Tremor is good because someone could say, hey, I wish I could have at least 1 ranged attack, so I want to put that on my bar.  Instead, the developers basically said, "put this on your bar, or that other skill (rampage) won't be worth the slot either."
 
Why not spend time fixing the abilities that no one uses and make them a choice? There's a reason that people don't use augmented blade, an exclusive pvp ability, and that's because other skills are better choices for the LAS.  Why not change ripsaw, so that it actually serves a purpose?  Those are things that the warrior already has, that aren't even choices, because you can fill the LAS with good skills.  Forcing tremor onto the bar, now leaves less room for other skills to become choices, and makes for more linear gameplay.
Don't get me wrong, Rampage reset lottery is very strong in PvE and PvP, but these aren't the ways to do it.
 
What we see, and basically the reason we're back to full circle of this post, is developers making changes, posting them to the PTR for testing / feedback, and the players being told that "no matter how much you disagree with this change we've made, it's going through anyway, and we can look into redesigning it / fixing our mistake 3 months from now in the next drop."
 
So the cycle continues, and you wonder why posts like this are made!  The saying, 1 step forward, 2 steps back, applies here.  Why should I, as a consumer and representative of this "small" community (which shouldn't be, considering PvP was a selling point), sit back and write "treatises" for month after month, as the same mistakes keep being made, the same design choices aren't being followed, and the quality of play is being lowered across the board?
 
Why is that Warrior changes have to "fall in line," with other changes, when Warrior is widely regarded as a fun, engaging, strong, and useful class?  Why can't other classes be brought up to the level of the warrior?  (If everything is OP, nothing is, amirite?!)
 
Why can't PvP be brought up to the level of Raids in this game?  Why can't the nominal amount of focus required to jumpstart the PvP community be held in as large of a priority as crafting the Omni-Core (a monumental waste of resources in my eyes,) or fixing a broken dungeon?
 
I mean hell Vic, if you even watched any of the hype videos for this game, a reasonable person would tell you that they had a big focus on PvP.  Sure, a purely PvP Wildstar isn't sustainable, but neither is a 40man Raidstar.  Neither is housingSTar, or CostumeStar, or CraftingStar! All of those things are necessary to show developer attention to craft a massively multiplayer online game.
 
To make some analogies for you here, try running STL gold, and everytime you dc'd out of the instance on accident etc, you not only failed your gold, but you were forced to run it FASTER the next time.  That's basically how PvP goals and rewards work right now.  How about, if every time they made a patch to housing plugs, you had to wait 2 weeks to edit your house?  You think people would like that?  No! You'd have people on the forums in the masses saying, "hold on a second Carbine, stop patching housing plugs for 5 damn seconds so we can actually use your system!"
 
Drop 2 : New BGs!  Drastic nerf to healing
Gear finally normalized followed by :  RNG runeslots
Spellslinger healer attention : 360 wild barrage / Void slip cooldown / trigger fingers broken
Medic DPS update : medics are viable (balance arguable), FIELD PROBES BREAKS 2v2 ARENA!
 
Imagine if you got Veteran Shiphands, but they came along with a patch that disabled a whole WING of Datascape.  That's what PvP patches and developer attention is like in this game.  That's why we come in here and talk our heads off instead of patiently write treatises.  Wouldn't a logical step be to hold off on shiphands until the datascape issue was fixed?
 
I'm sorry this one was a little bit jumbled, but its because there's just so much to talk about when it comes to reasons why posts like this even exist.
 
Where are we at in PvP?  We get practice queues sometimes outside of raid hours, a warplot or two on a weekend, and if we want 1800 gear you just wintrade it in 2s, despite all of the "fixes," to stop wintrading.
 
What do you think happens when guilds kill Avatus for a week or two?  The Roster Boss pulls its mighty sledgehammer from the depths of Timetravel's bag of horrors and smashes raiding in this game to pieces.
 
Then we'll all be doing veteran shiphands together.	
----
			Going to have to agree with Eclips on this one. I joined this game with a WHOLE guild from WoW, just for the PVP that was promoted. Warplots looked super sweet, Arenas/BG's and the combat system overall was just a huge new experience. It was too good to be true. I had the most fun for the first month of the game when I hit 50, besides all the win-traders that ruined PVP. This game had a huge PVP database of players. I was able to join PBG's and RBGs without facing the same team's over and over again..... Will we ever see a player database like that again?? who knows... Hopefully CRB can fix this soon.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Here let me put this in simpler to follow terms.  As a fundamental design flaw, that happens to coincide with PvP:
 
LAS has 8 abilities.  Limited Action Slots are meant for hard choices, between skills that are effective.
Drop 4 Warrior Changes effectively remove 1 more choice from the LAS.  They remove choice from the AMP.
 
Tremor / rampage changes make it necessary to add tremor to the "rotation."  Rotations are nice in games with 15-20 skills.  Not so much in games with 8 ability LAS.
 
What I want for the LAS system, and what I "thought," was the design, was to make each individual skill have a purpose.  Something like Tremor is good because someone could say, hey, I wish I could have at least 1 ranged attack, so I want to put that on my bar.  Instead, the developers basically said, "put this on your bar, or that other skill (rampage) won't be worth the slot either."
 
Why not spend time fixing the abilities that no one uses and make them a choice? There's a reason that people don't use augmented blade, an exclusive pvp ability, and that's because other skills are better choices for the LAS.  Why not change ripsaw, so that it actually serves a purpose?  Those are things that the warrior already has, that aren't even choices, because you can fill the LAS with good skills.  Forcing tremor onto the bar, now leaves less room for other skills to become choices, and makes for more linear gameplay.
Don't get me wrong, Rampage reset lottery is very strong in PvE and PvP, but these aren't the ways to do it.
 
What we see, and basically the reason we're back to full circle of this post, is developers making changes, posting them to the PTR for testing / feedback, and the players being told that "no matter how much you disagree with this change we've made, it's going through anyway, and we can look into redesigning it / fixing our mistake 3 months from now in the next drop."
 
So the cycle continues, and you wonder why posts like this are made!  The saying, 1 step forward, 2 steps back, applies here.  Why should I, as a consumer and representative of this "small" community (which shouldn't be, considering PvP was a selling point), sit back and write "treatises" for month after month, as the same mistakes keep being made, the same design choices aren't being followed, and the quality of play is being lowered across the board?
 
Why is that Warrior changes have to "fall in line," with other changes, when Warrior is widely regarded as a fun, engaging, strong, and useful class?  Why can't other classes be brought up to the level of the warrior?  (If everything is OP, nothing is, amirite?!)
 
Why can't PvP be brought up to the level of Raids in this game?  Why can't the nominal amount of focus required to jumpstart the PvP community be held in as large of a priority as crafting the Omni-Core (a monumental waste of resources in my eyes,) or fixing a broken dungeon?
 
I mean hell Vic, if you even watched any of the hype videos for this game, a reasonable person would tell you that they had a big focus on PvP.  Sure, a purely PvP Wildstar isn't sustainable, but neither is a 40man Raidstar.  Neither is housingSTar, or CostumeStar, or CraftingStar! All of those things are necessary to show developer attention to craft a massively multiplayer online game.
 
To make some analogies for you here, try running STL gold, and everytime you dc'd out of the instance on accident etc, you not only failed your gold, but you were forced to run it FASTER the next time.  That's basically how PvP goals and rewards work right now.  How about, if every time they made a patch to housing plugs, you had to wait 2 weeks to edit your house?  You think people would like that?  No! You'd have people on the forums in the masses saying, "hold on a second Carbine, stop patching housing plugs for 5 damn seconds so we can actually use your system!"
 
Drop 2 : New BGs!  Drastic nerf to healing
Gear finally normalized followed by :  RNG runeslots
Spellslinger healer attention : 360 wild barrage / Void slip cooldown / trigger fingers broken
Medic DPS update : medics are viable (balance arguable), FIELD PROBES BREAKS 2v2 ARENA!
 
Imagine if you got Veteran Shiphands, but they came along with a patch that disabled a whole WING of Datascape.  That's what PvP patches and developer attention is like in this game.  That's why we come in here and talk our heads off instead of patiently write treatises.  Wouldn't a logical step be to hold off on shiphands until the datascape issue was fixed?
 
I'm sorry this one was a little bit jumbled, but its because there's just so much to talk about when it comes to reasons why posts like this even exist.
 
Where are we at in PvP?  We get practice queues sometimes outside of raid hours, a warplot or two on a weekend, and if we want 1800 gear you just wintrade it in 2s, despite all of the "fixes," to stop wintrading.
 
What do you think happens when guilds kill Avatus for a week or two?  The Roster Boss pulls its mighty sledgehammer from the depths of Timetravel's bag of horrors and smashes raiding in this game to pieces.
 
Then we'll all be doing veteran shiphands together.
----
			
@ Vic.... 
 
Eclips has received a 7 day ban so i'll be posting his forum war's for him.....
You're kind of far off with the use of Tremor and rampage... The reason we PvP warrior's do not use Tremor is ..
1. It's a waste of 2 AMP points at the bottom of a tree. This requires 2 less AMP point's in a defensive tree. Post drop 4, we will now have to sacrifice those defensive AMPs for more Offensive AMP's.
2. Tremor is a ranged move.... which is cool!!! but we're a melee class. We have bum rush and grapple to rush our targets. We don't need a ranged damage move.
3. Being that Tremor is a ranged move... with a Push back (completely demoralizing of the melee class) using this move to hit our targets and pushes them farther out of our melee range..... seriously??? the hell is that. Let's implement a move that counteracts a melee class and now make it mandatory. Makes sense "WildStar"
4. Drop 4 changes requires more Offensive AMPs. Yes, we will gain more consistent damage, and also bleed effects. The only good change to this is Tremor will hit stalkers and mark them with a bleed.... Now we can see them through stealth!! hooray!!!
Offensive changes, we will lose Vigor and also our movement speed (that got changed to 10%). Warrior's build rage from hitting target's, and we're constantly being damaged in the open field. We strive on our defensive's to stay alive (that all got nerfed). 	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
@ Vic.... 
 
Eclips has received a 7 day ban so i'll be posting his forum war's for him.....
You're kind of far off with the use of Tremor and rampage... The reason we PvP warrior's do not use Tremor is ..
1. It's a waste of 2 AMP points at the bottom of a tree. This requires 2 less AMP point's in a defensive tree. Post drop 4, we will now have to sacrifice those defensive AMPs for more Offensive AMP's.
2. Tremor is a ranged move.... which is cool!!! but we're a melee class. We have bum rush and grapple to rush our targets. We don't need a ranged damage move.
3. Being that Tremor is a ranged move... with a Push back (completely demoralizing of the melee class) using this move to hit our targets and pushes them farther out of our melee range..... seriously??? the hell is that. Let's implement a move that counteracts a melee class and now make it mandatory. Makes sense "WildStar"
4. Drop 4 changes requires more Offensive AMPs. Yes, we will gain more consistent damage, and also bleed effects. The only good change to this is Tremor will hit stalkers and mark them with a bleed.... Now we can see them through stealth!! hooray!!!
Offensive changes, we will lose Vigor and also our movement speed (that got changed to 10%). Warrior's build rage from hitting target's, and we're constantly being damaged in the open field. We strive on our defensive's to stay alive (that all got nerfed). 
----
			
Just chiming in a bit to say that on PvE side as a warrior tank the vigor change is disappointing as it is an AMP that goes from "I guess I could take that, it might be nice in some situations" to a full on "nope...", in most if not all circumstances I can think of and risk isn't worth using it at all.
 
Also to add on to the tremor issues mentioned, it's irritating that it pushes back and does not interrupt in any way noticeable. I would at least consider it more if it could halt a cast and not necessarily trigger a MoO, but it doesn't or it's so insignificant it might as well not be there. It just nudges the target away from us...	
----
			
*grabs popcorn*
This looks like some good PVP here!
 
But seriously when there is more PVP in forums than the game there are problems :blink:	
----
			
*Viciously attempts to steer the conversation away from Warriors only*
 
It has been suggested before that after the staff loss back towards the end of Summer, right before Drop 3, that the current staff is spread too thin. There either aren't enough people to tackle the same issues we keep seeing patch to patch or as it seems lately the people assigned to current tasks don't understand enough about them to be making game-changing decisions without at least attempting to obtain feedback from the community. 
 
Carbine, I understand that this game is your brainchild and not ours, but you can't be everywhere in the game at once like the community, as a whole, can be. It is utterly useless to ask us for feedback about things written in stone, but if they are still written in pencil, on paper, you'd be surprised at some of the valuable feedback and suggestions this community can offer to help you make more informed decisions.	
----
			Sweet mother of text!!!	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I don't care what Carbine's personal opinion of me is, because at worst I get, "well Ted, the kid's right but he's an *cupcake*."
 
----
			I had a horrible gut feeling a year ago now back in beta that Carbine would seriously neglect PvP. And look what we have here now. 	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
2. Tremor is a ranged move.... which is cool!!! but we're a melee class. We have bum rush and grapple to rush our targets. We don't need a ranged damage move.
3. Being that Tremor is a ranged move... with a Push back (completely demoralizing of the melee class) using this move to hit our targets and pushes them farther out of our melee range..... seriously??? the hell is that. Let's implement a move that counteracts a melee class and now make it mandatory. Makes sense "WildStar"
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Going to have to agree with Eclips on this one. I joined this game with a WHOLE guild from WoW, just for the PVP that was promoted. Warplots looked super sweet, Arenas/BG's and the combat system overall was just a huge new experience. It was too good to be true. I had the most fun for the first month of the game when I hit 50, besides all the win-traders that ruined PVP. This game had a huge PVP database of players. I was able to join PBG's and RBGs without facing the same team's over and over again..... Will we ever see a player database like that again?? who knows... Hopefully CRB can fix this soon.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Some PvE noobs getting their 1800 weapon by win trading didn't affect me or anyone else in the slightest. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Ask anyone who quit pvp in the first 2 months of Wildstar.. .I promise you, no one is going to say "Because of win traders"
----
			
Ask anyone who quit pvp in the first 2 months of Wildstar... I promise you, no one is going to say "Because of win traders." Only people who cared about win trading were the 10-20 people at the highest ratings who were pissed someone was higher than them (Aka Mosh vs Koreangirl)
 
Trust me... It was 1800 geared warriors and stalkers who dropped their ratings to 500 or less in order to boost noobs to 1800 for plat.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Ask anyone who quit pvp in the first 2 months of Wildstar.. .I promise you, no one is going to say "Because of win traders"
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Carbine has already said they changed tremor to not do the knock back and also buffed the animation and GCD from 1.25 seconds to 0.75 seconds. I know you know this already. So what are you doing by giving this false information? Don't think false information will scare Vic.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Have to agree with that.
Also, about win-traders...If you already have the gear, shouldn't you be able to still win against a booster?
Being more skilled...
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Previously to wintraders... fighting them with 1200 gear vs 1800 gear..... It didn't workout so well. The gear gap was huge previously, and you had to completely out-skill them to win. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It's sort of funny that it's such a huge issue because Carbine was trying to avoid that whole issue of 1200 v 1800 rated people fighting each other in the first place.  People just want to exploit.
 
This is why we can't have nice things, as gamers.   :(
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Don't go blaming the players for this.  Significant gear gaps are designers ignoring the reality of MMO PvP.  If you must have PvP gear progression the difference between a fresh 50 and a fully PvP optimized set should at best be an edge.  Making it so that fresh 50's get destroyed is a novice mistake.  Assuming that people won't start PvP'ing at 50 is another novice mistake.  And for the tri-fecta: Raid gear should never be a game changer for PvP.
 
That said, I'm kinda surprised that rating only gates your ability to purchase the gear.  I would have thought that once you fell low enough the gear would be unwearable.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Well, you know those arguments people make about there not being meaningful progression in a lot of areas of the game?  That was sort of the idea, it seems, to make PVP sort of more like raiding where getting better gear qualified you for better brackets of play.  That way, PVP players could sort of increase their progression through the PVP sphere by earning better and better gear as they went.  Which was a noble idea, at least, because it would give PVP players the same sort of progression and rewards mechanics people want out of other areas of the game.  That's why the gear gap was so huge, climbing the ranks was meant to be actually worth something, so that people in 1800 gear were actually godlike for all the work they were supposedly meant to put into the game.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The reason I called "significant gear gap" a novice mistake is because it's been tried several times before with disastrous results.  There's no right way a large gap can be implemented especially since PvP is supposed to be about skill not gear.  But progression is possible if the gear disparity between a fresh player and optimized veteran is minimal.
 
Cheating OTOH is a player problem.  However it is incumbent upon the operator to do everything possible to make cheating not possible.  (Insert Starship Troopers quote about not possible to get a Section whatever for striking an officer) 
 
I'll give you win-trading, that's something that has to be policed manually.  Tanking sort of half-falls into that.  Removing the gear advantage it affords is something that can be mitigated in code. 
 
Teleport/speed hacks take advantage of holes in the code.  The correct way to address that is to plug those holes.  Slapping a level requirement on resource nodes is utterly naive: Those that most often engage in resource botting are tend to also be expert levellers.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The reason I called "significant gear gap" a novice mistake is because it's been tried several times before with disastrous results.  There's no right way a large gap can be implemented especially since PvP is supposed to be about skill not gear.  But progression is possible if the gear disparity between a fresh player and optimized veteran is minimal.
 
Cheating OTOH is a player problem.  However it is incumbent upon the operator to do everything possible to make cheating not possible.  (Insert Starship Troopers quote about not possible to get a Section whatever for striking an officer) 
 
I'll give you win-trading, that's something that has to be policed manually.  Tanking sort of half-falls into that.  Removing the gear advantage it affords is something that can be mitigated in code. 
 
Teleport/speed hacks take advantage of holes in the code.  The correct way to address that is to plug those holes.  Slapping a level requirement on resource nodes is utterly naive: Those that most often engage in resource botting are tend to also be expert levellers.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Either way, that's the problem.  If the gear gap is marginal, it's much less progress to see.  Imagine if, to balance the gap of gear between fresh 50s and endgame raiders, in the interest of stopping anyone carrying players through dungeons and making sure it's all skill, rather than gear, based, the gap between fresh level 50 questing gear and Datascape gear was minimal.  It's more a question of tradition than anything else that it's less of an issue in PVE than PVP that you can be ranked higher by having well-geared friends, since raiders aren't competing against each other directly for wins and losses.  Just imagine it happened.  There's be all kinds of Hell being raised about the gear being worthless, that there'd be no point, why go for BIS?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This right here is the classic MMO PvP mistake.  We're an MMO, there shalt be gear progression.  Gear progression is a driver for PvE.  Directly competing against other players is the driver for PvP.  The instance bosses still stick around if you completely outgear their content.  While some people get off on ROFLStomping their opponents, it's not healthy for PvP modes.  By and large dedicated PvP'er's much prefer even matches.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This right here is the classic MMO PvP mistake.  We're an MMO, there shalt be gear progression.  Gear progression is a driver for PvE.  Directly competing against other players is the driver for PvP.  The instance bosses still stick around if you completely outgear their content.  While some people get off on ROFLStomping their opponents, it's not healthy for PvP modes.  By and large dedicated PvP'er's much prefer even matches.
----