Report 213

Report #213
Skillset: Combat Skill: TrueShield
 Org: Serenguard Status: Completed Jun 2009
Furies' Decision:
Will reduce trueshield effectiveness by 50%.
Problem: Currently, with how Trueshield works any combatant with Splendors with
a 70/70 stat and a shield of 40/40 get the protection of 110/110 which is equal
to that of a warrior with fullplate. On top of that if they go with the 52/52
Shield Rune Artifact that boosts that upward to 122/122 which is far higher than
even a warrior can get for protection. With the passive hindering from any of
the Caster types gives those with such protection a huge advantage which in turn
causes many warriors to not be able to surpass even medium wound state on their
target. As an addition, since KATA DEFLECT works the same way for monks it
should be switched to have the same effect as TrueShield.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #1: Change TrueShield to add half the stats of the shield
 onto the current protection of the robes and make
 Kata Deflect an equivalent to.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #2: Same as Solution 1 but also allow full body
 protection.
Player Comments:
---[Viynain on 6/8 @ 20:05 writes]:
I'd rather the second solution to spread the protection across all areas while
curving down the overwhelming amounts of what it is now.
---[Alban on 6/9 @ 00:44 writes]:
Solution number two sounds the most agreeable. It would assist non-artifact
warriors in building some decent wounds, but the spread of the protection would
be beneficial for non-tailoring robe wearers, and help prevent one hit pinlegs.
---[Nienla on 6/9 @ 01:59 writes]:
Solution #2 seems best
---[Ethelon on 6/10 @ 17:33 writes]:
Solution 1 would be best. As it is now, the most effective way to hinder/slow
your target is to go for the legs. To add the effect of trueshield to the legs,
would make it worse for the knight to really build any sort of offense at all.
---[Sidd on 6/10 @ 18:04 writes]:
Solution 2 sounds good, I don't think allowing full body protection is going to
hinder warriors building wounds that much, while giving those non-tailoring robe
wearers decent protection
---[Nejii on 6/14 @ 02:31 writes]:
Definitely gotta cover the legs if we're nerfing it. Solution 2.
---[Xenthos on 6/16 @ 02:06 writes]:
Just an observation of the numbers, we've got: 70/70 splendors. 52/52 shield
rune. That is 70 + 26 == 96/96 on all body parts, with suggestion number two.
Fullplate's maximum as of now is 100/100. Is this really what you're all
looking for in terms of actual protective comparison?
---[Nienla on 6/18 @ 22:27 writes]:
If those umbers are correct, perhaps Solution #1 should be changed to be 1/3rd
of the Shield's stats instead of 1/2
---[Xenthos on 6/19 @ 22:02 writes]:
I'm just going by the numbers put in the report as the problem. But the
suggestion #2, as-is, is essentially fullplate + 4 proofings. Bit more
expensive since it's a trans item + a shield rune, but given that robe-wearers
generally have more passive ways of stopping an offense than warriors do... it's
warrior protection, plus proofings, plus more passive hindering (dodge / ents /
demesnes / etc). It seems a bit excessive to me, really (currently trueshield
is REALLY excessive in the areas it protects, but at least it does not protect
everything so there are options...)
---[Alban on 6/20 @ 17:14 writes]:
But what about the fact that robe wearers tend to have on the order of 1/3 to
1/2 the health of a a warrior? We are also looking at the extreme high end - a
person who has both chosen tailoring as their trade and purchased a shield rune.
I still believe that Solution #2, as is, is the best fix.
---[Shamarah on 6/20 @ 18:29 writes]:
I don't know if solution 2 is necessary - do we really need more legs
protection? It's hard enough for most warriors to build an offense as it is. I
think solution 1 would probably be okay.
---[Shamarah on 6/20 @ 18:31 writes]:
Honestly I'm not even sure that solution 2 is much of a downgrade at all
considering most warriors' offense revolves around the legs.
---[Alban on 6/20 @ 23:10 writes]:
If we reduce the effectiveness of trueshield, then we need to have it cover the
legs. While we can argue whether protection should be balanced around a shield
rune, a person should not need to take tailoring to be combat viable, and
warriors, especially ones with runes, can hit very, very hard. The protection is
needed. Also I believe that arguing that the protection might be too high simply
because it is near what fullplate is worth is a fallacy...where is the proof
that this is actually a bad thing? And as I said before, reducing the number of
one hit pin legs is a good side effect...killing two birds with one stone.
---[Sidd on 6/21 @ 05:34 writes]:
I do not see the logic in people saying that trueshield should not be balanced
around shieldrunes and splendours, then turning around and proclaiming that
warriors with weapon runes tend to hit very hard, necessitating said protection.
You either take into account arties for both sides, or neither. It is not wrong
to argue that robe wearers do not deserve fullplate-like protection, especially
taking account that all shield users have proofs and usually a decent enough
passive offense (plus active offense, naturally) to hinder a warrior from
hitting as quickly or as efficiently as he wants to. In fact, using 'regular'
robes of 50/50 + a regular shield of 40/40 nets a protection (if this change
goes through) of 70/70 + proofs + passive offense + stance + parry + rebounding
+ natural miss rate. That is definitely more than enough to get by considering
that warriors usually have to lunge, etc (power moves) in order to make any
headway to begin with. Additionally, with trueshield being how it is, warriors
hit legs exactly because of trueshield not protecting that bodypart. Personally,
I would not be opposed to trueshield covering legs as well with the caveat that
total body part protection cannot exceed 75/75. Trueshield can buff parry plus
whatever else as well in addition. --- Shuyin
---[Xenthos on 6/21 @ 14:45 writes]:
Hmm. That's a decent alternative, putting a cap on it. But that would be a
pretty hefty nerf to the shield rune. If the buff to parry is related to shield
stats, that might work out better (for example, a 52/52 shield might allow for
pretty accurate parrying of two locations, instead of the current "splitting
parry over two locations is not usually the best idea"). Instead of passively
having massive protection everywhere, you have a greater ability to protect your
body using parry effectively.
---[Alban on 6/22 @ 00:35 writes]:
I didn't mean to insinuate that we shouldn't balance around shield runes, only
that splendours should not feel like a necessity, since they are a trade skill,
and choosing to get a shield rune and splendours should offer you some pretty
nice protection. My concern is that we are talking about a considerable nerf to
trueshield (50% is a lot), with no compensation. Warriors can kill people pretty
well now, though I concur that it can be a little ridiculous trying to build
wounds on those parts covered by trueshield. But the protection will be to be
compensated somewhere else, for reasons I've already mentioned.
---[Xenthos on 6/23 @ 00:13 writes]:
You're discussing reducing it by 50% *on the places it protects,* while further
expanding it to cover everywhere (including legs), which ends up making it a
pretty large buff in that regard. "Fullplate-like-protection with 4 proofs"
might be all right on the limbs covered by Trueshield normally (solution #1), or
we could go with removing the protection altogether and allow the stats to give
a nice buff to parry. Full-body full-plate with 4 proofings is excessive. I'm
not really sure why you feel it needs to be compensated elsewhere for being
reduced to Full-Plate-Protection on the protected limbs.
---[Vathael on 6/26 @ 03:34 writes]:
It was brought to my attention by Ceren and Melville, after a bit of studying on
their part, that Trueshield is already half the shield stats on top of robe
stats so perhaps adjust this to be 1/3 the stats instead.
---[Nejii on 6/26 @ 04:31 writes]:
Weapon runes and splendours are totally different balance considerations. If you
could get non-decay splendours as any tradeskill it would be another matter.
---[Ceren on 6/27 @ 14:52 writes]:
Psst, finding out that your report was based on assumptions that were so
incorrect that you ask for a change that's already reality, is not the best time
to ask for a more severe nerf. As it stands, top end splendours/artie shield
(supposedly 125/123, lol) take notably more wounds than 108 masterarmour (about
100 wounds more), and even that's just on the trueshield protected areas. It's
roughly comparable to warrior helm on head/chest/gut. I can actually see where
this idea came from because when trueshield first came out, it was in fact
giving out numbers similar to spec plate (that's plate biased to one protection
or the other, like 125/80), but apparently it's since been ninja nerfed.
Needless to say, I disagree with the solution as presented, but I want to point
out that there's something still overpowered about trueshield: the shield arm is
pretty much immune. It should be nerfed to the same degree of protection that
head/chest/gut get.