Report 1018

Report #1018
Skillset: Skill: Death
 Org: Illuminati Status: Rejected Feb 2013
Furies' Decision:
Rejected. We reduced Conglutination in the skillset to Master because it was not
useful to demigod+, so we are not looking at this time to make it more useful to
them (especially not so useful). Reduced essence loss for demigod/ascendant is
not something we are interested in at the moment.
Problem: A big problem of conflict events (domoths, villages, raids, etc) lies
in the idea that it is very tough to swing the momentum of a fight the other way
and -maintain- it for an appreciable amount of time. This is partly due to the
fact that when you kill an entrenched group of raiders/domothers/etc, they are
able to come back very quickly because there is no appreciable lag time between
death and resurrection. If you add this on top of the ease of getting to places
of conflict via *bixes, then it quickly becomes apparent that should you manage
to win against an entrenched group with many advantages
(shrines/skills/numbers/etc), your win will be short lived given that they are
able to come back quickly. This isn't very fun or exciting. The change to shrine
gravity reflects this anti-entrenchment sentiment, but there is still work to be
done. Furthermore, Planar Conglutinate currently serves no purpose for both
demigods and ascendants. This report seeks to remedy these issues.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #1: Increase the time it takes for a demigod/ascendant to
 phoenix/insta-reincarnate. The time should be
 equivalent to PRAY FOR SALVATION for demigods (150s)
 and 2/3 (100s) that time for ascendants, given the
 500k essence cost.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #2: In addition to 1, increase the time it takes to
 conglutinate for mortals. This should be about 2/3
 the time it takes to PRAY FOR SALVATION (100s).
 Demigods who own conglutinate will have their
 phoenixing sequence time reduced by 1/3 to 100s,
 while ascendants who own conglutinate will have the
 essence cost for reincarnating halved.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #3: In addition to 1 and 2, ensure that no further
 experience/essence is lost once the person has begun
 conglutinating/phoenixing/reincarnation. Disable the
 tick that drains mana/xp, in short.
Player Comments:
---[Enyalida on 1/11 @ 04:58 writes]:
I approve of this, both solutions. In exchange for phoenix taking more time, it
should cost less. I like the additional idea of the penalty for deaths in player
enemy territory dropping down from 2 million in exchange for an ever-increasing
Phoenix time penalty. You will lose time up-front in the battle instead of
behind the scenes bashing, which feels like a more appropriate penalty for dying
in battle.
---[Celina on 1/11 @ 05:55 writes]:
Sure, if the harsh death costs are cut back. I don't want to lose a ton of
essence AND spend 5 minutes reforming.
---[Shuyin on 1/11 @ 06:12 writes]:
Yes, part of my Big Plan is to review the essence cost of death after this, but
I figured I should do things one at a time. Try and pass this, then we can talk
about scaling down the essence cost of dying. I agree with your points so far
though.
---[Llandros on 1/12 @ 03:23 writes]:
Ungh, this one is going to suck. This is a compelling argument though and I
can't say i disagree. Having a wave of enemies on you again before you can
finish breaking their meld and taking down their shrine is no good.
---[Kaikazu on 1/22 @ 10:36 writes]:
Supported, and I agree it would make sense to address death costs as well in
future reports should this pass.
---[Tacita on 2/5 @ 11:16 writes]:
Supported, as long as this doesn't affect immolates, avatar res abilities or
similar (if someone puts the effort/power/their essence in to get you ressed,
you should get the benefit).
---[Shuyin on 2/5 @ 18:06 writes]:
Yeah, every other way of rezzing (vitae-like, immolations, resurgem, etc) will
be unaffected. In a way, this change will increase the value of those.
---[Xenthos on 2/9 @ 01:48 writes]:
This is a decent idea. I have a couple of other things that I would like to see
done though. As stated, cut down the essence loss dramatically (the penalty
will be one more in terms of time rather than essence). If you die in org-enemy
territory, instead of taking 2 million essence, double the rez timer (your body
is more disrupted and it takes more time to pull yourself together).
---[Janalon on 2/9 @ 06:10 writes]:
If I correctly understand the core of this report, the intent is to decrease XP
penalty and increase time penalty. As a variation on what is already discussed,
why not introduce a MOBA-like mechanic of penalize rez time for each death
incurred within a 24-hour RL period. Something to the effect that each
additional death within 24-RL clock hours would incur a cumulative +20s penalty
for each of these deaths. However, I'm not sure this is a mechanically feasible
or a preferable solution.
---[Tandrin on 2/11 @ 15:52 writes]:
While I agree with the sentiment behind this report, I can't help but feel that
it would be better implemented by having a period where grace of the innocents
cannot be rejected to lock folks out of combat rather than having folks stuck in
the dead state where they can't do much in game.
---[Shuyin on 2/12 @ 01:29 writes]:
Well that would make things unplayable for the people who die. Plus I won't lie,
if I had permanent grace, I'd just try to be even more obnoxious given my
'invincibility'
---[Llandros on 2/13 @ 03:20 writes]:
We -just- got innocence griefing removed, please lets not bring it back x100.
Having is so that people in death limbo can hear aethers and keep deathsight
would be more than enough to pass the time.
---[Zynna on 2/20 @ 13:18 writes]:
I'm not a big fan of extending the amount of time you can't play the game
because you're dead. Rather than force people to tune out the game because
they're waiting to play again, just implement a timer that prohibits people from
entering enemy territory for 100/120 sec after reviving. That solves the problem
of raiders quickly returning while still allowing the player to play the game
until he can return to fight more
---[Shuyin on 2/20 @ 18:18 writes]:
A minute and a half isn't exactly hours of being unable to play. While this is
true, it -does- make it so the people who worked hard to dislodge the other team
is able to build a meld or setup. That solution doesn't exactly solve the issue
I outlined above: it's hard to swing a fight -anywhere-, not just raids, if
everyone instantly rezzed.
---[Zynna on 2/21 @ 20:34 writes]:
In an era where the average attention span online is approximately 9 seconds,
100-120 seconds of being unable to do anything can feel like an eternity and
doesn't foster a feeling of involvement in the game. Given that there are less
draconian solutions to this problem (prohibit recently dead from entering enemy
territory, have those who pray rez in their city/commune and unable to leave org
territory and/or manse for 100/120 seconds), I'd rather choose one of those
---[Shuyin on 2/22 @ 02:59 writes]:
I would argue that being stuck to one place or being mechanically prohibited
from entering another is arguably worse than a period to cool off and get a
drink and/or use the bathroom during intense circumstances. But I guess we'll
just agree to disagree.
---[Steingrim on 2/23 @ 08:25 writes]:
Opposed. The point of the essence loss for death is to curb griefing an org.
Time is not a limited resource in the same sense as essence. Essence is the risk
and potential cost one takes for raiding an enemy org (and it is minimal unless
one is going to raid and die over and over). Timeout simply does not compare
unless it locks you out of the area for a far longer period than 5 minutes. I am
also opposed to any sliding scale for pray time. The point of this request is to
make it even easier to take a domoth, when it is already pretty easy.
---[Shuyin on 2/23 @ 09:46 writes]:
Um, no it's not. I even mentioned the intent in its entirety on the problem
section. I don't know where or how fast you bash, but I certainly can't accrue 2
million essence in a short amount of time, which by definition, does not make
the cost "minimal". As an example, I can get about a million essence after 6
hours of bashing Lirangsha. I feel that losing -twice- that amount on a raid
that lasts maybe 30 minutes is far too punitive. But as I said, that specific
debate is not for this report. Furthermore, I did not even address any talks
about a timeout, sliding scale, or anything in this report. That will be dealt
with once the admin have rendered a decision on this idea to begin with, so I'd
appreciate it if we remained on topic. Lastly, if taking a domoth were that
easy, then most domoth steal attempts would end in success. I assure you, having
participated in many, many more domoth attempts more than any envoy (considering
I've been active since the mechanic was implemented), the "defending" team
almost always wins since they have home field advantage in the form of a meld,
shrines, and the knowledge of where the domoth item is. As an example, a team of
Hallifax/Serenwilde/Celest made an attempt to steal a domoth claim by Gaudiguch,
but was ultimately repelled simply because Gaudiguch was able to employ a meld,
shrine (at the beginning), and had numerous quick ways to return to the fight.
End result: no change, domoth proceeded.
---[Llandros on 2/25 @ 17:45 writes]:
A couple minutes of time out is a bummer but will greatly improve the flow of
combat. Having a strong set up will still be an advantage but not inordinately
so. It will make staying alive more important, killing key targets more
significant and move things away from blindly attacking with no strategy or
hoards of non-com fodder ruling the battlefield. There are many ways to go about
it. Have it just apply to demjyys and higher and lock them into the heavens
until their bodies adjust to the shock of dying or whatever but this is a solid
change.
---[Shuyin on 2/25 @ 23:24 writes]:
What Llandros said is true. Furthermore, it also rewards a smaller, yet smarter
and more coordinated group who manages to pick members of a large group off and
help even the odds a bit more. Honestly, I think mechanics that reward this sort
of behavior can only be a good thing. IMO, the worst that can be said of the
idea is that it also equally rewards said large group, but then I'd say 'not
much difference compared to now' to that. P.S. Another recent example - Celest
challenged the beauty domoth on urlachmar 1 348, Gaudiguch/Glomdoring went to
steal. The latter lost due to large numbers, a shrine, -and- the main
competition being able to quickly come back after dying. End result: no change.
---[Shuyin on 2/28 @ 09:25 writes]:
Another situation where this change would lead to a more beneficial, balanced
and fair conflict situation: Adding a delay between death and resurrection means
that the popular tactic of 'die->instarez->run in (with serpent or GP) and
accrue more points towards your time based victory condition->repeat' becomes
nearly impossible to do. This popular for domoth absolves, stage 2 of securing a
domoth, and even the final stage of a domoth. Such tactics lead to boring fights
and grants a pretty hefty advantage to the implementer just so long as he or she
is willing to eat a death every time. Moreso if she can cure well or has serpent
up.
---[Shuyin on 2/28 @ 09:27 writes]:
IMPORTANT REQUEST FOR REPORT: After thinking about it, it would probably be
easier to just mechanically lock out the PHOENIX/REINCARNATE command until the
requisite time has passed (please give a message when you can do the command).
This would probably save coding time, having to write messages, or anything else
like that. Of course, you guys are free to do whatever you want. Just making a
suggestion!
---[Steingrim on 2/28 @ 22:06 writes]:
After reading the comments, still opposed. Perhaps I'm just a cynic, but I don't
see any reason to buff ascendants even more, while making it harder for non-
ascendants to rejoin the fray. Either bixes can be used for these things or they
should be just shut off during domoths. Domoths are supposed to be a team effort
and I just don't see that having 'different res times' facilitates teams.
---[Steingrim on 2/28 @ 22:18 writes]:
One thing I have always like about IRE games is the furious combat, MMOs like
Rift have moved away from death penalties towards getting people back into the
fight quickly. This sit out the fight because you missed the ascension bus (few
of those proposing this have problems getting back to the fight on their own) it
not fun to the vast majority of the playerbase. If this goes though, I would
like to see something along the lines of a domoth bond which would allow players
to return to the bubble on their own. In short, this seems like a great for
those proposing this, but what is in this for the average player?