123910-b2p-sub-credd-suggestion

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I m a huge fan of mmo's and a WS lover. I m playing WS since beta and never dropped my sub. I always try to attract more ppl in game by praising WS in mmo forums etc and i always try to provide positive feedback and new ideas or potentially fixes, here in forums. But times has changed. Almost every mmo is now at least B2P.
WoW is introducing Token, a CREDD like system. Its not B2P ofc but when a game with million of subs adding such an option means something.
TESO gone B2P and tons of new ppl, including many of my friends, jumped in. I logged in again after the transition and there are players in every little corner.
GW2 is already B2P and after the HoT Expansion announcement there is a huge excitement by players and game is PACKED every hour of the day. I m in a guild that out of the 500 members, the lowest online number during the day is no less than 60 and goes up to 200 during peak hours. I cant even imagine what will happen when HOT get launched.
SWTOR with a retarded F2P model is thriving.
Rift as F2P also, has a 100% healthy population and always implements great expansions & patches with many new features.
Same with TERA. F2P with huge player base and very good content additions.
There are ofc more games like TSW but i speak only for those i own and play/played.
Out of all these games i like WS the most. There is no point to say why, but i like it more than any other mmo in the current market. I acknowledge that Carbine is doing their best to improve the game, fix problems and attract more ppl. Sadly it isn't enough. Not only because the game needs more polish in general, but mostly due to sub. When it comes to mmo's, players have many options anymore without paying a sub. Its easier to play a game when you can play with your friends and in WS this is something out of the question. I have many RL and on line friends playing mmo's and NONE of them plays WS. Many of them bought it at launch, but none plays it right now and i guess this not only about me and my friends.
Population is better than it was a couple of months ago, but still is pretty low. You cant attract new ppl when they lvl up in ghost areas. When they cant queue for anything before they hit 50 or even at max lvl in non peak hours. Every mmo needs ppl to be played as intended and WS, for now, cant be played like that. Not even close.
I know many will say about CREDD, but ingame sub option is not the same as B2P. Maybe for WoW or EvE, but not for WS. Many will also say about their friends and how all of them play WS, or prompt to join guilds, help lowbies etc. Its a known story, but we all know the truth. WS needs desperate more ppl. Many more ppl and considering the current mmo market, a transition to a B2P model is 100% needed. Not F2P. There are tons of ppl who own the game and can take advantage of B2P. We all need them back. WS needs them. Hell, its a mmo, not a single player game. Let the F2P crowd out and give the right to those who own the game, loggin and play.
Don't get me wrong. I m not the kind of guy who wants to have everything for free. I play mmo's for 12 years and always paying a sub. But sadly (or not) times have changed. Sub 90% is dead and mmo's needs ppl to be played as intended. WS will celebrate the first anniversary in a couple of months and still the no1 problem is population. I think its time to end this and both players and Devs focused on how they ll improve the game, rather than how a few more ppl jump in, in order WS to became playable as a mmo.
In the end all of us play mmo's to have fun, not to solve population problems etc. We have our real life and our jobs if we want solving headaches...
 
 
*Just to clarify some things:
 
1. This is not a F2P thread. Its a B2P + Sub + CREDD suggestion. It is based to the fact that many ppl bought WS in the first place, so their potential return would help both Carbine and the game community a lot.
2. This is not about sub cost, but how to attract more ppl in game
3. I have and will continue to have an active sub in WS. I pay for more than 12 years subs in mmo's and in many occasions more than 1 at a time
4. I m not making assumptions if a F2P / B2P / P2P system brings more money to Carbine or mmo's in general
5. This is my suggestion in order to attract more ppl in game. If you have a better one just say it and don't troll ppl who have other opinions
			
				
	Edited March 21, 2015 by BusterCasey
	
		Title changed	
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			I don't know if sub is dead, but I believe decreasing the monthly fee would considerably help.	
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I don't know if sub is dead, but I believe decreasing the monthly fee would considerably help.
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Really?
 
Another thread about F2P/B2P?
 
I wish 25g was deducted from people's mains when they posted about stuff like this.	
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			Unfortunately there are a lot of people here who only raid log or rarely play and are completely delusional about the games current population, so they'll be hopping in here shortly saying that sub is working. 	
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I m a huge fan of mmo's and a WS lover. I m playing WS since beta and never dropped my sub. I always try to attract more ppl in game by praising WS in mmo forums etc and i always try to provide positive feedback and new ideas or potentially fixes, here in forums. But times has changed. Almost every mmo is now at least B2P.
WoW is introducing Token, a CREDD like system. Its not B2P ofc but when a game with million of subs adding such an option means something.
TESO gone B2P and tons of new ppl, including many of my friends, jumped in. I logged in again after the transition and there are players in every little corner.
GW2 is already B2P and after the HoT Expansion announcement there is a huge excitement by players and game is PACKED every hour of the day. I m in a guild that out of the 500 members, the lowest online number during the day is no less than 60 and goes up to 200 during peak hours. I cant even imagine what will happen when HOT get launched.
SWTOR with a retarded F2P model is thriving.
Rift as F2P also, has a 100% healthy population and always implements great expansions & patches with many new features.
Same with TERA. F2P with huge player base and very good content additions.
There are ofc more games like TSW but i speak only for those i own and play/played.
Out of all these games i like WS the most. There is no point to say why, but i like it more than any other mmo in the current market. I acknowledge that Carbine is doing their best to improve the game, fix problems and attract more ppl. Sadly it isn't enough. Not only because the game needs more polish in general, but mostly due to sub. When it comes to mmo's, players have many options anymore without paying a sub. Its easier to play a game when you can play with your friends and in WS this is something out of the question. I have many RL and on line friends playing mmo's and NONE of them plays WS. Many of them bought it at launch, but none plays it right now and i guess this not only about me and my friends.
Population is better than it was a couple of months ago, but still is pretty low. You cant attract new ppl when they lvl up in ghost areas. When they cant queue for anything before they hit 50 or even at max lvl in non peak hours. Every mmo needs ppl to be played as intended and WS, for now, cant be played like that. Not even close.
I know many will say about CREDD, but ingame sub option is not the same as B2P. Maybe for WoW or EvE, but not for WS. Many will also say about their friends and how all of them play WS, or prompt to join guilds, help lowbies etc. Its a known story, but we all know the truth. WS needs desperate more ppl. Many more ppl and considering the current mmo market, a transition to a B2P model is 100% needed. Not F2P. There are tons of ppl who own the game and can take advantage of B2P. We all need them back. WS needs them. Hell, its a mmo, not a single player game. Let the F2P crowd out and give the right to those who own the game, loggin and play.
Don't get me wrong. I m not the kind of guy who wants to have everything for free. I play mmo's for 12 years and always paying a sub. But sadly (or not) times have changed. Sub 90% is dead and mmo's needs ppl to be played as intended. WS will celebrate the first anniversary in a couple of months and still the no1 problem is population. I think its time to end this and both players and Devs focused on how they ll improve the game, rather than how a few more ppl jump in, in order WS to became playable as a mmo.
In the end all of us play mmo's to have fun, not to solve population problems etc. We have our real life and our jobs if we want solving headaches...
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Really?
 
Another thread about F2P/B2P?
 
I wish 25g was deducted from people's mains when they posted about stuff like this.
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I would not mention WoW there, since its very existence is a counter argument to your post.
 
And I would not mention TESO as well, I bought it at launch, left before the initial month ran out. Now I jumped back in and what I found is the same broken and buggy cash-cow. It won't retain much of the player base it has now, trust me on that. Its just plain bad game.   
 
And when you speak about f2p games "doing well", do you take into account official players numbers? Cause those are kind of tricky since they include people who logged in once a month for 3 seconds and never even considered supporting the game through buying anything from the cash shop. In which case a game is better off without them. 
 
Also, not of the transitions to f2p or b2p made the game better. More accessible - maybe, but at what cost? Pay to repair your items, pay for a race, pay for a decent horse, pay for everything. Even if its just skins, sorry, I am not interested in buying them, I am interested in WORKING to ACQUIRE them through GAME MECHANICS. Because that's what games are about.   	
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No its not another F2P/B2P thread. Its a B2P thread from someone who loves and have an active sub in WS 10 months now.
Just for the record, you can try login Jabbit and see if its possible to do any group content. A mmo must be playable any time of the day, not only a few hours during peak time.
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No its not another F2P/B2P thread. Its a B2P thread from someone who loves and have an active sub in WS 10 months now.
Just for the record, you can try login Jabbit and see if its possible to do any group content. A mmo must be playable any time of the day, not only a few hours during peak time.
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So I take it you aren't willing to be patient and watch the game regrow its population, like it has been for the past month since drop 4 landed.
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Since you claim to play a lot of MMOs you must know that low player activity outside peak hours is a thing. Not only less people ARE online, but they HESITATE to queue for stuff, because of the perceived lack of players online.  WS is playable at any time, lots of solo content, lots of stuff you can do with guildies/friends.  
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By saying playable, if you mean login to the game, then yes it is. If you mean doing any other activity than solo content, then it isn't. There aren't any guildies online in non peak hours, at least not a minimum number required for doing grp content. I ll agree that in non peak hours every mmo has less ppl online, but at least you get queue's, grp etc even in a slower rate. In WS there isn't anything in non peak hours. Only lonely solo content.
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By saying playable, if you mean login to the game, then yes it is. If you mean doing any other activity than solo content, then it isn't. There aren't any guildies online in non peak hours, at least not a minimum number required for doing grp content. I ll agree that in non peak hours every mmo has less ppl online, but at least you get queue's, grp etc even in a slower rate. In WS there isn't anything in non peak hours. Only lonely solo content.
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Since you claim to play a lot of MMOs you must know that low player activity outside peak hours is a thing. Not only less people ARE online, but they HESITATE to queue for stuff, because of the perceived lack of players online.  WS is playable at any time, lots of solo content, lots of stuff you can do with guildies/friends.  
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			What is the purpose of this?	
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No its not another F2P/B2P thread. Its a B2P thread from someone who loves and have an active sub in WS 10 months now.
Just for the record, you can try login Jabbit and see if its possible to do any group content. A mmo must be playable any time of the day, not only a few hours during peak time.
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Really?
 
Another thread about F2P/B2P?
 
I wish 25g was deducted from people's mains when they posted about stuff like this.
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Let me read that back to you and see if that makes sense: almost nobody online, people aren't Qing because they (falsely) think almost nobody is online. Eh? Fact is, Qs can be long even at peak hours, and are extremely long at non peak. Yes, lowered activity outside of peak is a thing in every MMO (because duh, people have jobs and lives), but WS a ghost town at non peak, and you're kidding yourself if you think otherwise.
 
Playable is not sitting in 40min+ Qs and begging in LFG for someone, anyone, to run with. /wave at the 1 other guildie online, sup steve.
 
All that said, things ARE on the uptick, and I'd give WS a few months and see how things stand before raising the F2P/B2P flag.
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The reason these threads keep happening is because people are unhappy with the state of the game and the servers. They will keep happening until the population returns to a normal level and the only way that is going to happen is through f2p/b2p. Don't like it? dont post in these threads, it's a simple concept.
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Make the game good, so that people will WANT to pay for it. Wildstar is good, it has its flaws but it is becoming better over time. That is rare in the industry. That is what TESO failed to achieve in a year.            
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Jabbit EU the only PvE WS EU server. Date 21/3 Server Time 09:00
 
http://imgur.com/L1ZhUAE
 
I know that during peak hours there are more ppl around, but its not enough. We are talking for a single EU server...You cant play a mmo only during peak hours.
Anyway this is my opinion and i m a person who loves WS. If you want the game to remain at its current state then let it be. I think going B2P will help it grow a lot and this is the only way for a mmo to get better. Only by attracting more ppl so everyone has a better in game experience, either it is PvE/PvP queues, lvl up, open world grp content, end game, economy or non peak hour playing.	
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I think going B2P will help it grow a lot and this is the only way for a mmo to get better. Only by attracting more ppl so everyone has a better in game experience, either it is PvE/PvP queues, lvl up, open world grp content, end game, economy or non peak hour playing.
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Anyway this is my opinion and i m a person who loves WS. If you want the game to remain at its current state then let it be. I think going B2P will help it grow a lot and this is the only way for a mmo to get better. Only by attracting more ppl so everyone has a better in game experience, either it is PvE/PvP queues, lvl up, open world grp content, end game, economy or non peak hour playing.
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Just wanted to add this before i head out regarding content and peak hours.
 
It is currently not NA peak hours (check the timestamp) on the supposedly empty dominion faction and just got done completeting 2 PBG and 2 vet dungeons. Guild currently has 20 people online and a couple hours ago the guild ran a full low lvl KV.
 
Meaning, there is content being run, there is an active population. However, you need to seek it out, speak up in chat, look for a guild, network with other players.	
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Lol what? Oh wait, you also praised GW2 in the opening post. Yes, that game has a substantial population - but at what price? It's pretty simple: near-total stagnation. With every single drop, WS is getting about as much content as GW2 gets in about a year or more. I was a big fan of the b2p concept back at the time of GW2's launch, but that game definitely has cured me.
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Jabbit EU the only PvE WS EU server. Date 21/3 Server Time 09:00
 
http://imgur.com/L1ZhUAE
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			The most played MMO is sub based, then introducing the CREDD system only means they want to make even more money, it has NOTHING to do with people not paying for sub. They sell their Tokens more than normal gametime AKA more money for blizzard.	
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Then i ll say it once more. I m not a fan of B2P/F2P model, nor i have a problem with P2P. Anyway i have always played sub mmo's since 12 years now, as i m doing with WS also. The point is population and in WS it isn't nearly enough to required numbers, in order to play it as intended and as intended means any time of the day, every aspect of the game.
If you have some better solution say it. But pls, we are almost a year after and despite fixes, Drops, Megaservers etc, population is still very low to consider the game pop healthy in non peak hours. PvP & open world content isnt healthy even at prime time...
So whats your solution? Wait another year? Wait for some miracle patch as we all said when expected for Drop 3 & Drop 4? Just pls, dont say accept or leave or dont care about it, because WS is a game i love and want to see it thriving. I wouldn't even bothered to write down a single word here if i didn't care. Is that much asking for a better ingame experience from a game you ENJOY to play and see how much of potential it has?
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If people quit wildstar due to the sub cost, you'd have a point.
 
Find me 1 "I'm quitting" post where the Subscription was the players number 1 reason for quitting I'll give you a CREDD. Till then maybe we can stop this kind of threads.
 
There are many other ways to bring people in. The best way is to provide a product people feel is worth a subscription. I believe Carbine is making great strides towards that.  Next is a free unlimited time trial to level 20 (with current trial restrictions)	
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There is absolutely nothing wrong with the subscription model. It's certainly not budget-breaking, and if players would realize it's better for their game experience, we'd all be in a better place.
 
Free to play is over, it's going away. Buy to play is potentially viable for some games. But subscription is the best option.	
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As long as there are Sub par MMO's that aren't worth a sub  there will always be free to play.
 
I just hope Archeage was the last AAA title to try it though	
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I would have to agree with Mamatereza. The pure subscription-based business model for MMOs is on it's death-bed...
It's not so much because subs are "bad" (I have payed subs from 1999-2014), but because there are just WAY too many alternatives nowadays, that people can choose from...
They get smothered on their death-bed by the F2P-hybrid-models...
 
But F2P doesn't always have to be a bad thing per-sé.
It just needs to be implemented right and with a lot of thought.
I've been through a "Sub -> F2P" conversion before with Aion (EU) and this step has literally saved the game...
But they also have one of the best hybrid-systems that I know of...which is a big part of why most of the former subscribers stuck with the game, after it went f2p.
 
The f2p-restrictions in Aion are simple: Increased lock-out timers and 50% less medals (which you need to buy the endgame-pvp-gear) from sieges.
Otherwise the game doesn't have any restrictions to speak of...
Using a "gold-pack" (somewhat similar to C.R.E.D.D.) removes these restrictions.
The game was literally the same as it was during it's subscription-time and was cheaper as well (€15 sub versus €10 Gold-Pack)...
 
But we suddenly had a HUGE influx of new players. So much so that they had to open new servers...
 
The biggest difference between free players and "gold-pack"-players is the time it takes to gear up.
For free players it would take 2-3 times longer to gather the medals for the pvp gear...and that's quite a chunk of time in Aion...
So the incentive to buy gold-packs is good...
 
Another aspect of their "f2p-hybrid" that worked very well were/are the veteran-rewards.
It's quite similar to the reward-system that EQ2 had for it's subcribers.
Every month you got a little "thank you" for being subbed to the game (run-/attack-/castingspeed scrolls, potions, etc).
And then there were "milestone rewards" every 6 and 12 months.
Those were really something to look forward to, like new wings, mythical supplements (which helped with enchanting/socketing) etc..
 
F2P for Aion also didn't mean that the updates stopped...
EU/NA just got them ~6 months after Korea, but that was already the case when we still payed subs...
 
So for us "old players"....nothing changed in therms of game mechanics and features!
But we suddenly had a huge population...and payed €5 less each month as well...	
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I would have to agree with Mamatereza. The pure subscription-based business model for MMOs is on it's death-bed...
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			A sub removed is definitely NOT needed. Though, a massive advertisement push once all the flaws are ironed out (likely drop 6, maybe even 7), showing people what they're missing out on and what an amazing game it will become. A reduced cost in sub fee could also be brought along with the advertisement push to bring more players back. Maybe $10 instead of the traditional $15. 	
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Jabbit EU the only PvE WS EU server. Date 21/3 Server Time 09:00
 
http://imgur.com/L1ZhUAE
 
I know that during peak hours there are more ppl around, but its not enough. We are talking for a single EU server...You cant play a mmo only during peak hours.
Anyway this is my opinion and i m a person who loves WS. If you want the game to remain at its current state then let it be. I think going B2P will help it grow a lot and this is the only way for a mmo to get better. Only by attracting more ppl so everyone has a better in game experience, either it is PvE/PvP queues, lvl up, open world grp content, end game, economy or non peak hour playing.
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APOCALYPSE APOCALYPSE THE WORLD IS ENDING.
 
WORLD MUST GO FREE TO PLAY OR WE SHALL CEASE TO EXIST.
 
GET YOUR TIN FOIL HATS READY /cozmotronic  noises	
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			Just remember when you're not paying for something it's because you're the product. Take it as you will, I personally don't care if it's B2P or Sub at this point as long as the game lives on. 	
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I've decided your post is the biggest load of BS I've ever seen.
 
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A sub removed is definitely NOT needed. Though, a massive advertisement push once all the flaws are ironed out (likely drop 6, maybe even 7), showing people what they're missing out on and what an amazing game it will become. A reduced cost in sub fee could also be brought along with the advertisement push to bring more players back. Maybe $10 instead of the traditional $15. 
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Agree with this very much. There seems to be a fair amount of shenanigans going on with some of these type of posts lately. I don't pay much attention to this sort of topic normally but It's getting tiresome to say the least. That being said it doesn't mean things are wonderful and the game is soaring but Wildstar does seem to be steadily growing imo. Patience really is needed buy a few on here.
I wish the mods would just move these type of posts into just one large one so the f2p/btp gang can post there rhetoric to hearts desire.
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			I have no problem with this thread staying f2p discussion, just please don't let it spill over into the other ones.... again.	
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Yes I deal with it every month and pay that huge bill of $15 for an almost unlimited amount of Entertainment for a month. The same I do with FFXIV and EQ2 so thats like $45 bucks a month for 3 games that I can play whenever I want.
 
So expensive.
What a ripoff.
 
Please stop.
 
F2P games are not free. They are a cash grab that forces people into buying content. I rather pay my 15 bucks and get the entire game and pay people for their job. Instead of them making artificial paying walls for a living.	
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Honestly I feel that the OP has a valid point not just about Wildstar but about MMO's in general these days.
 
Speaking from my own experiences, a lot of my friends that I've tried to get into WoW, SWTOR, etc. are turned off from the game because they have to pay a recurring fee for the game, which in retrospect to my 10+ years of playing subscription based MMO's piles up to a pulsing mass of money that I don't like to think about.
 
I know the topic has been beaten into the ground here, but it's a topic worthy of discussion considering the state of the game. I'm not being a doomsayer, but it's still an interesting topic to discuss nonetheless. I particularly enjoy the CREDD system as it gives me more incentive to play the game more, much like EVE Online did, and from my own personal experiences with Free to Play games, the game's quality only begins to drop once the game becomes free (though there are some exceptions to this rule).	
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P.S >>> SYSTEM <<< Marked your picture at 11:02  get out of here with your trolling
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F2P games are not free. They are a cash grab that forces people into buying content. I rather pay my 15 bucks and get the entire game and pay people for their job. Instead of them making artificial paying walls for a living.
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Non of that is actually true for F2P/Sub hybrids though....
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Time was in local. 09:00 server time is 11:00 local time for me. Anyway if it was 11:00 with such a low pop it would have been even worse.
Btw yes i m a troll. You got me. I m playing WS for almost a year now, without dropping my sub even once. I m also posting in the same time in forums, suggesting things for a better game experience. I enter PTR daily and i m giving feedback. My last PTR comments were about wardrobe and a new tool for gathering. I m posting to many other mmo sites and try to get ppl come to WS.
On the other hand is ppl like you, who thinks being a blind fanboy helps the game.  Keep it like that and instead of asking or propose solutions, just close your eyes or put your head in the sand.
If you don't like a suggestion then dont share it. You don't have the right to call troll any1 who doesn't share your thoughts.
 
*For those who say about the $15 cost etc. I m not saying this is a huge amount. I pay for WS & FFXIV in the same time. Some times i pay for WoW too. Its only about how to help game to get more ppl. I cant see many other solutions here. Only comments about the hate of a potential sub removal. So make propositions instead of just yelling or call others trolls.
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Indeed, as far as I'm concerned, sub based games are the biggest con going. It's pretty much the mmo equivalent of communism (equal price for everyone!).
 
 
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			meh n/m  	
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Non of that is actually true for F2P/Sub hybrids though....
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Have you played SWTOR as a F2P lately? The things restricted are practically a laundry list:
Crew Skills
Fleet Passes
Experience Gains past level 20
Bank Status
No Priority for Login Queues (lol)
Credit Cap of 200,000
Restricted Chat Channels
Can only recieve in-game mail
Higher cost to respec talents than Subs
Species Restrictions/2 Character Slots
5 PvP Matches a Week
3 Dungeons a Week
Weekly pass needed for Operations
 
The list goes even further than that. Don't even get me started on Champions Online, which is literally pay-to-win with the ability to use any powers to create an unstoppable death-machine of a superhero, while F2P players are restricted to thematic character classes.
 
Edit: I forgot to add that you can't even hide your freaking helmet as a F2P player, or display titles.
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b2p "hybrids" contains a cash shop where you buy costumes, mounts, pets and potions for various shit and so on.
 
I do not agree with this model. I want every single bit content to be obtained through gameplay, not my credit card. This is why I support the PayToPlay model.
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This discussion, as far as I can tell, isn't about a hybrid system..
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The only shop exclusive items I came accross were some weird costumes (sailor, angel and whatnot *shudder*)...and those I can do without...
Personally I'd rather have some shop exclusive costumes and a quality-of-life-sub (as explained above), if that means, that the access restriction drops (which in return would flood the servers with new players, if Aion was any kind of example...).
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Have you played SWTOR as a F2P lately? The things restricted are practically a laundry list:
Crew Skills
Fleet Passes
Experience Gains past level 20
Bank Status
No Priority for Login Queues (lol)
Credit Cap of 200,000
Restricted Chat Channels
Can only recieve in-game mail
Higher cost to respec talents than Subs
Species Restrictions/2 Character Slots
5 PvP Matches a Week
3 Dungeons a Week
Weekly pass needed for Operations
 
The list goes even further than that. Don't even get me started on Champions Online, which is literally pay-to-win with the ability to use any powers to create an unstoppable death-machine of a superhero, while F2P players are restricted to thematic character classes.
 
Edit: I forgot to add that you can't even hide your freaking helmet as a F2P player, or display titles.
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That's why I brought it up....because a hybrid system would be much more favorable compared to pure f2p...
And easier to intrduce, since C.R.E.D.D. is already in place...
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{| class="blockquote"
Time was in local. 09:00 server time is 11:00 local time for me. Anyway if it was 11:00 with such a low pop it would have been even worse.
 
Btw yes i m a troll. You got me. I m playing WS for almost a year now, without dropping my sub even once. I m also posting in the same time in forums, suggesting things for a better game experience. I enter PTR daily and i m giving feedback. My last PTR comments were about wardrobe and a new tool for gathering. I m posting to many other mmo sites trying to get ppl into WS.
 
On the other hand is ppl like you, who thinks being a blind fanboy helps the game.  Keep it like that and instead of asking or propose solutions, just close your eyes or put your head in the sand.
If you don't like a suggestion then dont share it. You don't have the right to call troll any1 who doesn't share your thoughts.
 
*For those who say about the $15 cost etc. I m not saying this is a huge amount. I pay for WS & FFXIV in the same time. Some times i pay for WoW too. Its only about how to help game to get more ppl. I cant see many other solutions here. Only comments about the hate of a potential sub removal. So make propositions instead of just yelling or call others trolls.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I never played SWTOR, so I can't comment on their system...
I do agree that a lot of publishers go WAAAY overboard with their f2p/hybrid systems!
But as I said, Aion did a great job with the conversion to it's hybrid-model...
 
If it's done correctly it's really "just" about dropping the access barrier to the game, and then implementing a quality-of-life sub (in W* case C.R.E.D.D., since it's already there).
Restrictions like increased lockouts, 2-3 times slower prestige, glory, renown, EG/AMP progression would be enough for 70% to buy that quality-of-life sub...
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I personally find SWTOR's system to be one of it's biggest marks against the game, as it effectively hindered my ability to enjoy the game. I can understand currency caps for free players, but the exp gains being effectively half of subs/preferred players makes the leveling horrifically boring and long. Restricting lockouts and how many activities the player can perform in a week is fine, as long as it helps encourage the player into buying passes or a subscription to get past that.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This discussion, as far as I can tell, isn't about a hybrid system..
----
			
This is getting beyond obnoxious, I'm going to leave these forums for good soon. Before I do here's something to think about for some of you posting here.
 
If Wildstar is going F2P, and you know it, there is no need to tell everyone constantly. You have no justification for browbeating the topic, particularly when you know that it upsets other players. Effectively you are admitting through your assertion that you got what you wanted and it's just a matter of time, so stating that fact is no longer useful. What then is the reason for browbeating this topic? Because you desperately need to assert your ego by telling people how right you are? Or are you trolling to get an emotional rise out of the players who hate F2P?
 
Here's a bit of basic wisdom for those who don't seem to get it: People who cling to unproven absolutes do not facilitate interesting discussion.	
----
			
My thoughts on this is rather then implement a news system like f2p or b2p or any hybrid, make the current system morer accessable.
 
Make the free trial unlimited time to say level 15, you get the first shiphand, training dungeon and adventure. Put appropriate caps on these trial account. Once a player buyas the game, dont force a player into signing up for a sub until their 30 day gametime is up with the game purchase. Make sure credd Is something every player knows about. ThiS way people do not have To ever sub if they choose not too. makes the game much more accessible while keeping the same model.
 
People cant try the game and never have to commit to anything. If they want to play further, they can buy the game and get their 30 days. After that, they havet he option to sub or do credd.	
----
			
I'd also like to address a specific point made in the OP:
 
 
 
{| class="blockquote"
Population is better than it was a couple of months ago, but still is pretty low. You cant attract new ppl when they lvl up in ghost areas.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I think that when people say "this game is going to go F2P," they mean hybrid/F2P, as pretty much every P2P game that has "gone F2P" still has an optional subscription.
----
			
 /dons tin foil hat
 
 /blasts off in rocket of doom
 
GAME IS DED ABANDON ALL STATIONS
 
MAN THE FREE TO PLAY ROCKETS
 /puts price tag on everything
 
OH NO, THE FREELOADERS ARE COMING!
 
"GIVE US MORE STUFF FOR FREE DEVS"
 
 /more swarms of people
 
"BAD GAME TOO MANY PAYWALLS!!!!"
 
[trolling ingame intensifies]
 
LET US HIDE BEHIND THE FLUFF CONTENT OF $10 FOR A HAT WE WILL GET INSTEAD OF REAL CONTENT
 
(Tbh though, I don't mind f2p but this game needs TIME to heal and attempt to right itself before it goes b2p, f2p, hybrid... whatever. Stop being so damn impatient and let the devs try and make the sub model work...)	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
And what would you call having to pay for pretty much every little thing you want to do in the game and the price can/will creep up to be over what a sub was originally?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I'd also like to address a specific point made in the OP:
 
 
 
 
If population has gotten better, but you think Wildstar currently has ghost areas that prevent any population growth, how did the population grow in the first place?
 
This type of stuff makes me want to scream.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
 
That may be true, but not everyone uses the game equally and that's why people don't sub. When you charge someone $15/£9 for a subscription, they feel incumbent to play the game enough to warrant that cost. This is especially difficult these days with all of the different mmos on the market. Most of my friends wouldn't even consider playing WildStar because they'd have to drop their sub to WoW and they know WoW is a higher quality game which they have a ton of time invested in; however, if the subscription cost was lifted then I know people would be more likely to play it alongside the other mmos they play (alot like people do with GW2). I actually think the "pay to not grind" subscription system that a lot of games (like planetside 2 for instance) use is the best because players get access to the game, but if they want to support the development team and have a better time in game while doing so, they can sub.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
Playing though empty zones with no chance of getting into BG pre 50....doesn't give you the desire to stay in the game...
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The reason these threads keep happening is because people are unhappy with the state of the game and the servers. They will keep happening until the population returns to a normal level and the only way that is going to happen is through f2p/b2p. Don't like it? dont post in these threads, it's a simple concept.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
That only applies to PvP-minded people.
I personally never set a foot in a BG during my leveling, and I know many others who didn't.
This is a personal choice, not one of the "major reasons". Not everyone likes to do Battlegrounds.
 
And my experience when I was leveling an alt for the housing competition was different.
I played Exile, and I was constantly running into different people when leveling.
I agree that on Dominion this was a lot less, but even now when I play my alts, I see people running around in the zones.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
But he's right...
 
The population of players between the levels of 40-50 has increased, due to people giving the game a second chance with the 10 day trail.
 
But starting from scratch in the lowbie-zones....the game does feel rather deserted....even in comparison to the closed beta.
And if you want to pvp....well...you better forget about it pre 50 in the current state of the game...
 
Playing though empty zones with no chance of getting into BG pre 50....doesn't give you the desire to stay in the game...
 
So even while the higher level population is increasing though returning players....you can't really hook new ones, if the zones aren't populated and one aspect of the game is literally non existant...
----
			Oh look, it's another one of these.  Guess we needed another locked (or soon to be locked) thread that contains the same arguments.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
BS. They'll keep happening even if the population booms. The birth of F2P brought the "gimme gamer" with it; people who think that MMOs (with millions in man hours and money) should just be handed over for them to consume. It's absolutely absurd to think that F2P/B2P is even a legitimate model when the game turns out being more expensive to keep up and focus has to be shifted to constantly adding to a cash shop just to stay afloat.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Think what you want. If there was no demand for F2P/B2P then these threads wouldn't be appearing, but they are because an increasing number of players are asking for it. The sorry state of the servers is just making this all the more apparent.
----
			
Oh and to prove my point, just look at the title of this thread. It's pure bait for argument. I don't see anyone making a thread called "F2P is dead".
 
The "deal with it" part in particular is nothing but gasoline on the fire. I'm surprised the mods have allowed it to remain as it's basically a big *cupcake*you to the people who dislike F2P.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Think what you want. If there was no demand for F2P/B2P then these threads wouldn't be appearing, but they are because an increasing number of players are asking for it. The sorry state of the servers is just making this all the more apparent.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
And this is the biggest problem I have with some of you arguing for F2P.  You like to pile up the assertions with minimal to zero supporting evidence.
 
You assume that new players aren't coming or aren't staying. That is not evidence.
 
Town down the assumptions leading to definitive conclusions, tone down the rhetoric (note that the person you were referring to used the word "can't"— this does not mean "less" or "maybe". It means what it means). I'm tired of this sloppy useless attempt at argument coming from people who proclaim to be the bearers of Wildstar's best interests.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
If F2P threads had more "This might work, here's what we can discuss as points" rather than "F2P is coming, F2P will save the game", we'd have more intelligent conversations. I won't say productive though, considering how much information we don't have about Carbine's situation.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
That might be, sure... But that's still a large ammount of people these days!
 
Don't underestimate how much pvp-minded people are worth to MMO's...
Oftentimes - when they found an MMO in which they love the pvp - they are extremely loyal to said MMO, since there aren't THAT many good pvp-related MMO's out there nowadays :)
That's part of why Aion is still doing well.
 
 
Regarding the lowbie zones:
 
I started two days ago and gave the game another shot. Haven't played since the day the open beta started, because I knew that the game wasn't ready for release...
If I wouldn't have all the previous experience from the closed beta...I wouldn't sub! Simply because of how barren the zones are and the non existant BG's pre 50!
 
Yesterday I had a maximum of 3 other people in the zone...that's a littly pittyfull, if you keep in mind that there is only one megaserver for each playstyle and that the game isn't even one year old :(
Knowing what I know from closed beta I would still sub regardless....but the constant disconnects from Jabbit may actually *cupcake* me off enough to not actually go through with it...
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
No its not another F2P/B2P thread. Its a B2P thread from someone who loves and have an active sub in WS 10 months now.
Just for the record, you can try login Jabbit and see if its possible to do any group content. A mmo must be playable any time of the day, not only a few hours during peak time.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Are you by chance playing on the pvp server? Its a known issue on the forums that these servers are dead, and an issue i think we all can agree needs fixing. If you are on the pvp server, take the free transfer to the pve server. It may not have open world pvp, but the population is night and day difference
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
a )  I didn't argue for anything. If all, then I said that a hybrid model (which isn't a true f2p model) would be better suited compared to pure f2p.
 
b )  I never said new and returning players aren't coming!
 
c )  I said that the majority of 100% new players (without any previous experience with W*) will not get hooked by the game, if the lowbie zones stay barren.
 
d )  You assume just as much....or can you show me your facts about how many new players are staying?!
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Plus: It seems less about "f2p is coming" and more about "If it should be coming, this is the best possible way to do it"... :unsure:
----
			
The thing is,
 
When we switch to F2P, we will see more players enter game. I don't doubt that.
However, the important question that needs to be asked is: Will this bring enough revenue for the game to stay afloat?
 
No, it won't
F2P are simply struggling lately to break even.
To make a F2P game, or any game work, you need money coming in. And let's all be honest here, the majority of the people playing in the F2P scene, or that would be coming towards us, will not be paying enough a month.
 
So:
 
Are you right that F2P will bring more people? Yes, probably
Will it save the game? Most definitely not, as intake of cash is going to be so much less.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You started your post with "he's right". His contention was that the game can't bring in new players, and that's what I undermined. If you don't agree with the part of his post I quoted and counterargued with, then don't write quote me and state "he's right". :P
 
And I don't assume so much, because I'm not claiming there is a certain number of players staying. I'm undermining someone else's bad argument not making my own case for how healthy the population is or isn't. If it helps, I believe the population is low, lower than I like, but no on death's doorstep and certainly not low enough to require F2P. The main point to take away from this? I *believe*, not I *know*.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
Plus: It seems less about "f2p is coming" and more about "If it should be coming, this is the best possible way to do it"... :unsure:
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Actually I think this thread has a lot of suggestions and discussions about these suggestions...
Certainly more than some other threads I have read...
Plus: It seems less about "f2p is coming" and more about "If it should be coming, this is the best possible way to do it"... :unsure:
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
We probably had a different meaning of what "new players" mean in that case :)
I also count returning ones into that. And with that in mind the assumption that was made made sense...
The returning players are mostly higher levels, which doesn't help the state of the lowbie zones much...
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
so PLEASE. get on with the program. Wildstar needs to go WILD. it needs to be out there, hype needs to be created around it; either for PVP or Raids or Housing whatever. Yes, we need our cheerleaders and we need our "zybak (albeit without the cheating)".
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
definitely.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The thing is,
 
When we switch to F2P, we will see more players enter game. I don't doubt that.
However, the important question that needs to be asked is: Will this bring enough revenue for the game to stay afloat?
 
No, it won't
F2P are simply struggling lately to break even.
To make a F2P game, or any game work, you need money coming in. And let's all be honest here, the majority of the people playing in the F2P scene, or that would be coming towards us, will not be paying enough a month.
 
So:
 
Are you right that F2P will bring more people? Yes, probably
Will it save the game? Most definitely not, as intake of cash is going to be so much less.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The thing is,
 
When we switch to F2P, we will see more players enter game. I don't doubt that.
However, the important question that needs to be asked is: Will this bring enough revenue for the game to stay afloat?
 
No, it won't
F2P are simply struggling lately to break even.
To make a F2P game, or any game work, you need money coming in. And let's all be honest here, the majority of the people playing in the F2P scene, or that would be coming towards us, will not be paying enough a month.
 
So:
 
Are you right that F2P will bring more people? Yes, probably
Will it save the game? Most definitely not, as intake of cash is going to be so much less.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I can only speak about what I know from Aion EU, but they actually earned more as a hybrid-model.
But as I said: that has a LOT to do with them having one of the best hybrid-systems I know, which encourages players to buy the €10 sub...
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
warplots, have you seen them?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Where is your proof that F2P brings in less money? You speak of flowery, colorful words that lack any anecdotal evidence. 
 
Here's my proof that F2P are bringing in more money with other NCsoft title: 
http://www.readycheck.org/en/forum/wildstar/news/ncsoft-2014-financial-results-wildstar-hits-rock-bottom/
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Sales numbers.
Now place their cost next to it and see what remains.
Oh wait, that's not published.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Instead of going for personal insults, you should try to understand your evidence better.
You posted pure sales numbers, but totally neglected their operation costs.
Those numbers are not profit, they're raw sales numbers.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Again. I asked you, where is your proof that F2P makes no profit for a big publisher like NCsoft?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Again. I asked you, where is your proof that F2P makes no profit for a big publisher like NCsoft?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Where is your proof that F2P brings in less money? You speak of flowery, colorful words that lack any anecdotal evidence. 
 
Here's my proof that F2P are bringing in more money with other NCsoft title: 
http://www.readycheck.org/en/forum/wildstar/news/ncsoft-2014-financial-results-wildstar-hits-rock-bottom/
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Try reading a bit more professional material, or join user groups for actual game developers and professionals in the industry. Not some random google usergroup.
If you really want a stepping stone, feel free to join the discussions on LinkedIN instead. It's the easiest place to start.
 
 
 
I don't need your sympathy.
----
			the problem with this whole discussion is that we're not discussing changing model to make an MMO that is making profit grow. Wildstar is making a minus. A minus. Now whether it would make a minus under a different model doesn't exactly matter, because it would at least give it a chance to get out of the minus. If it fails, it fails. However how is trying worse than sitting here, doing nothing, watching it sink?	
----
			
Last time I checked the game was making a very low profit, not a minus.
 
Stop spreading misinformation.
 
{| class="blockquote"
RPers should really be left out of this. I'm not an RPer.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Last time I checked the game was making a very low profit, not a minus.
 
Stop spreading misinformation.
 
 
And this, it's irrelevant to the discussion.
 
Can free to play be successful? Yes, depending on the game it can.
IS it a better pay model? In my opinion, no. I spend way more money on f2p boundaries than on a sub every month.
Does wildstar need to go F2p? In my opinion, No not yet.
 
And that's all I'm giving to this topic.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Does wildstar need to go F2p? In my opinion, No not yet.
 
And that's all I'm giving to this topic.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Last time I checked the game was making a very low profit, not a minus.
 
Stop spreading misinformation.
 
 
And this, it's irrelevant to the discussion.
 
Can free to play be successful? Yes, depending on the game it can.
IS it a better pay model? In my opinion, no. I spend way more money on f2p boundaries than on a sub every month.
Does wildstar need to go F2p? In my opinion, No not yet.
 
And that's all I'm giving to this topic.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I think that's what most of us are saying "not yet".  I'll wait to see the population after the PR push.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
regarding the "not yet".
well. sure, if the game can have slow but steady increase of players it is good. depending on where you are in game and what you do your opinion might change.
i am in the raiding scene, and the attrition there is... palpable. people are more impatient than ever, bored (or simply not logging in) between raid, guilds are crumbling left and right and merges happen.
 
plus, how long can they go with this "slow steady growth" until the next big thing comes in ?
wildstar is a good game, but it is not a revolutionary one and neither one that will pass the test of time that well (imo of course).
they need to bring in revenues quick, to at least break even, if they want to keep the studio open and have the possibility to invest in the development of another game at some point.
they "cannot" wait that long.
the game also cannot.
that is why i think F2P will happen before this summer. i might be wrong, but that is my opinion on the subject.
i would also be in favor of an hybrid system very similar to Swtor, which i think is a very similar game to Wildstar in its core concepts. (swtor more budjet for the story and ip, wildstar better gameplay, but the game's structures and endgames are similar).
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This is still all just your opinion.  You are basing your assertions of what the game MUST do, purely off of your feelings.
----
			
I'm not asserting anything other than the population is good enough to be able to do whatever activity you wish to do in the game.  You are asserting that the game cannot survive with a P2P model.
 
Former players may return if the fixes are advertised.  Plus, I spoke with many players about Wildstar when hype was at it's peak, and some still hadn't heard of it.  There are TONS of players who haven't looked at it, let alone know about it.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
the problem with this whole discussion is that we're not discussing changing model to make an MMO that is making profit grow. Wildstar is making a minus. A minus. Now whether it would make a minus under a different model doesn't exactly matter, because it would at least give it a chance to get out of the minus. If it fails, it fails. However how is trying worse than sitting here, doing nothing, watching it sink?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
That only applies to PvP-minded people.
I personally never set a foot in a BG during my leveling, and I know many others who didn't.
This is a personal choice, not one of the "major reasons". Not everyone likes to do Battlegrounds.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Not everyone likes to PvP, no, but it is rather frustrating that leveling battleground brackets are there and they're taunting me and I can't make use of them. That's not really a problem in other MMOs. :/
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
And what would you call having to pay for pretty much every little thing you want to do in the game and the price can/will creep up to be over what a sub was originally?  It's equal price for everyone because we all have equal access to the game. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
the PR will be very difficult since a lot of people who wanted to try the game as a sub game already did.
can WIldstar bring these people back?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
ps maybe those 55 pets in PTR are hinting to a cash shop :P
----
			
Just to clarify some things:
 
1. This is not a F2P thread. Its a B2P + Sub + CREDD suggestion. It is based to the fact that many ppl bought WS in the first place, so their potential return would help both Carbine and the game community a lot.
2. This is not about sub cost, but how to attract more ppl in game
3. I have and will continue to have an active sub in WS. I pay for more than 12 years subs in mmo's and in many occasions more than 1 at a time
4. I m not making assumptions if a F2P / B2P / P2P system brings more money to Carbine or mmo's in general
5. This is my suggestion in order to attract more ppl in game. If you have a better one just say it and don't troll ppl who have other opinions	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Ugh, no. They're all obtained within the game itself.
----
			
Yep SWTOR F2P is a joke where RIFT's is probably the best model for players. 
 
I don't know if Wildstar should go F2P but if it got us double the population I'd say do it. 	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yep SWTOR F2P is a joke where RIFT's is probably the best model for players. 
 
I don't know if Wildstar should go F2P but if it got us double the population I'd say do it. 
----
			
The problem I have with these threads is that they pop up every single day, 2-3 times a day, with the same old begging for Carbine to switch to a new sub model.  Rarely, in cases like this thread, you get actual freaking suggestions about how to do it.  99% of the rest of the time, you get the same old beaten-to-death arguments.
 
Please remember that before mods changed the title of this thread, it was "Sub model is dead.  Deal with it."
 
If you guys want to know why we're so sick of these things, it's this:
 
Every time these threads are made, the people who are pro-sub give lengthy and detailed (especially VicVanMeter) explanations of why they don't want subs to go away, why F2P/B2P has negative connotations, and amazingly intricate insight into what happens when a game adopts a cash shop.
 
Most of the time, those who're anti-sub say the same things:  F2P way to go, game is dying, Q4 2014 report, sub model is old and dead.  We get maybe ONE GEM of a thread where people have actual F2P ideas like this one, but the rest of the time it's the same crap.  Until the OP was edited, it was still the same crap.
 
I'm willing to bet BusterCasey wishes they were paid on commission of how many threads they lock that've been derailed by F2P arguments.
 
(This seemed like the only decent place to get this off my chest and explain, so carry on with this actually thought-out discussion.  Good on you folks.)	
----
			
B2P + optional sub (like ESO or TSW) would work if you make the benefits of subscribing worth the monthly fee (XP and currency boosts, loyalty benefits, free access to all Drop contents) in order to keep people subscribing.
 
The B2P experience would have to be good enough to draw people back, or attract new players to the game. Make the B2P experience the game as it is (up to Drop 5), and 6 character slots (as it was at launch), and charge for character slots and future Drop contents (quest areas, dungeons etc, not rules changes).
 
Add a cash shop that has Drops, character slots (up to 24), XP and currency boosts and cosmetic items, pets and mounts (which can be gained in-game by subscribers only). Have CREDD translate to X amount of Cash Shop currency, and have an item in the Cash Shop that grants 30-days of subscription, costing X.
 
Basically, subscribers would never have to spend more money to get things in the cash shop (well, aside from additional character slots - and even that could be bought with CREDD on the CX), and Carbine would continue to put effort into designing content because the Drops would make money by keeping people subscribing and through sales to non-subscribers. I don't know how profitable that would actually be (compared to just having a sub), but I can't really see anything negative from the perspective of players.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
B2P + optional sub (like ESO or TSW) would work if you make the benefits of subscribing worth the monthly fee (XP and currency boosts, loyalty benefits, free access to all Drop contents) in order to keep people subscribing.
 
The B2P experience would have to be good enough to draw people back, or attract new players to the game. Make the B2P experience the game as it is (up to Drop 5), and 6 character slots (as it was at launch), and charge for character slots and future Drop contents (quest areas, dungeons etc, not rules changes).
 
Add a cash shop that has Drops, character slots (up to 24), XP and currency boosts and cosmetic items, pets and mounts (which can be gained in-game by subscribers only). Have CREDD translate to X amount of Cash Shop currency, and have an item in the Cash Shop that grants 30-days of subscription, costing X.
 
Basically, subscribers would never have to spend more money to get things in the cash shop (well, aside from additional character slots - and even that could be bought with CREDD on the CX), and Carbine would continue to put effort into designing content because the Drops would make money by keeping people subscribing and through sales to non-subscribers. I don't know how profitable that would actually be (compared to just having a sub), but I can't really see anything negative from the perspective of players.
 
----