111414-why-so-many-guilds-are-failing

== Content ==
			
This is a thread to express my opinion on why so many guilds have collapsed and what other's opinions are regarding the issue. The reason I think most guilds have failed is fairly simple and something that most players and even guild leaders seem completely oblivious to. For many players their in-game experience is often anxiety provoking, cognitively demanding, and stressful. The pressure to get silver, the pressure to get attuned, the demand to know so many different boss mechanics, and constant dungeon silver times all create an environment where players are not laughing, smiling, and telling jokes, but are stressed and left feeling mentally drained. In addition, there is often a rift between those who can and whose who can't, which leaves many players feeling uncomfortable and not confident in their ability to contribute. Guilds, as far as I can tell, have not done enough to help foster an environment that encourages players to log on and makes their experience in game a rewarding one. 
 
What do you think? 	
----
			
The few guilds I joined in Wildstar tend to have the high ranking people or cliques that went on their own to accomplish what they wanted individually.  Or they just tried to recruit as many people as they could to collect taxes for themselves.  
 
But in general the great majority of people in Wildstar need to take a chill pill.  They act like they're a cupcake Lebron James.  Get real.	
----
			
I think that there is no single reason why people leave games.
 
I also think these kind of threads are getting extremely bland and boring and have been for the last month.
 
Time to move on and either play the game, wait for fixes or leave it.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I think that there is no single reason why people leave games.
 
I also think these kind of threads are getting extremely bland and boring and have been for the last month.
 
Time to move on and either play the game, wait for fixes or leave it.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yeah because you are the messiah right?
----
			
I am certain there are people who have left for those reasons. I am also certain there are people who left through nothing that was done by their fellow players.
 
My guild is always very social. We never formed cliques. Everyone was having fun, or so it seemed. We don't collect guild taxes and every single member is tried to made feel welcome.
 
We had 20-30 people on every night for the first month. Then 15-25 the next month. Now we're lucky to ever have 10 people on, and recently it's more like 5-8.
 
While I'm certain a few folks went to other guilds for progression (that was never our focus) - most of them just quit logging in at all. My friends list is FULL of accounts who haven't been on-line in six weeks or more.	
----
			
Entitlement and/or boredom seem to be the primary issues, based on the forums. Bear in mind that these two groups of people tend to flock to forums though.
 
Bro hit the nail directly on the head. There are no single reasons. I also do not believe that discussing them will change anything. The bored will still be bored. The entitled will still think they're better than everyone else.
 
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, Search. That is as far as entitlement goes here though.	
----
			
I can definitely relate to the OP's theories.
The pressure/anxiety/stress really gets to me to a degree where I hesitate to run vet dungeons.
I'd consider myself an.... average gamer. Can keep up with the majority in games in general, can really stomp on the true baddies, get schooled by the very skilled people.
And I can keep up in what I've played of Wildstar so far, but it's extremely stressful. When it all works out, things are obviously fine, but when I mess up... wow, real feelings of shame/guilt. Because yeah: I missed that interrupt and just cost the group silver. Or cast the heal finisher a milisecond too late for the tank. Or, or, or...
Not quite what I want the larger part of my free time to consist of.
 
Some people might say "stop caring so much" but... I don't think I can.  :unsure:	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, Search. That is as far as entitlement goes here though.
----
			
Opinions... lol.  Just like my char, everyones got an opinion!
 
On a more serious note, this game for whatever reason is problem the harshest environment for those unwilling to pick up their shoes and contribute.  It is not like other games, where you can carry a large number of people through content, and just have your key members do the important stuff.  Everyones gotta do the important stuff. 
 
This game is unique in that retention is nearly non-existent.  For multiple reasons that I am sure you can all can relate to, or have experience with, there seems to be a high abundance of gamers who come in, get their feet wet, and then leave.  Whether it is indicative of the skill level required to play, it seems as though alot of people are shying away from this game and do not stick around for more than a couple months.
 
On the bright side, of all the people that have left the game, many have expressed that they do intend to come back to the game, just not right now.  So, silver lining?	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
This game is unique in that retention is nearly non-existent.  For multiple reasons that I am sure you can all can relate to, or have experience with, there seems to be a high abundance of gamers who come in, get their feet wet, and then leave.  Whether it is indicative of the skill level required to play, it seems as though alot of people are shying away from this game and do not stick around for more than a couple months.
 
On the bright side, of all the people that have left the game, many have expressed that they do intend to come back to the game, just not right now.  So, silver lining?
----
			
ahaha.. you mean besides the bug that was showing most of the guild members offline for more that 5 weeks?
 
Our newest recruit that had joined us 10hrs ago was showing up last online '5 weeks ago' in the guild panel (technically impossible lol). Something like that makes people think their guild is deserted and they run away to find bigger more active guilds and it made things complicated for MANY guild leaders.
 
Shamelessly I will admit that I left my original guild because of this but I had not noticed the bloody bug. I logged in the morning to check my AH, saw that everyone had not logged for more than 1 month and insta-quit it to find another one. Did other players even realize this was going on for some time now? Only after this very last patch (yesterday?) things seem to be showing up properly again (and still, I have not tested it much to be sure it is 100% fixed).
 
I have actually recently met a great Gleader that sadly I think has suffered with numbers because of this.. if nothing else, I am hopeful he will pick it up again now.	
----
			
Yeah, I actually have "GUILD ROSTER IS BUGGED!" in our message of the day.
 
That seems like something that should have gone to the top of the "Oh Crap!" pile of fixes.	
----
			
Our guild had 36 people online today, and it was our off raid day on a long weekend. We are not a social guild, we are a raiding guild. Will be stepping into Datascape next week.
 
Most people quit this game because of one reason, it was too hard for them. Not too tedious or grindy, not enough stuff to do, it was simply too hard. Getting Silver medals in Dungeons was too hard, they knew the next step (raiding) was going to be harder so they left. 
 
Most people don't want difficult content anymore. They want to play their MMO while watching a movie on another screen and playing some stupid game on their phone. You can't do that with this game so they left.
 
So many people blame RNG for causing them to die / wipe. If you actually look at things, this game has so little RNG in the content. As in next to none. Sure there are some bosses in dungeons where there is a bit (fire and last boss in SSM) but for the most part if you die it is 100% your fault. When you can't blame the game for your failure and it rests solely on yourself as a player, people will get bummed out when they fail over and over again at the same thing.
 
This all comes back to the OP's point though. Encounters were tuned pretty well for having rep / levelling / some crafted gear and did require a fair amount of thought and focus to do. Some people can't handle that in a game (or simply don't want that in a game), so they get all stressed out over their silver times or failing a challenge. That is their mindset, it won't change, they will just have to move on to an easier game. 	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
The old school player of yesteryear is the professional 30-40something married parent of today. I used to spend 6 hours after work every weeknight and 12 hours or more on the weekends playing games. Now, I'm lucky to get an hour on weeknight and three or four hours each Saturday and Sundays. Ain't nobody got time for 75 minute dungeons and five hours of forming a raid group. 
 
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This is EXACTLY it. This is the same problem I'm having, thats why I refuse to run dungeons (even though I would like to) because I know they will be both difficult and time consuming (not to mention unrewarding).
 
My server is almost deserted, I find myself questing alone (unable to complete group quests) as they are no players in sight, and /zone /general are completely silent. I still wonder why Carbine thought it was a good idea to cater to a "hardcore" demographic. I hope fixes are coming because I'm really having second thoughts, would hate to have wasted $15.00.
----
			
There is no real "this is why" answer to why guilds are failing. ALL guilds have cliques. It's bound to happen, in every MMORPG I've played, people have "their group" that they do stuff with regularly. Generally there will be a few that become regular members of the group in VOIP or guild chat that don't necessarily group all the time, but for the most part everyone will have "their group."
 
The guild I'm in now is more or less just a conglomeration of guilds. Each raid group has their own circle, and there is rarely ever talking in guild chat at all. Most of the chatter falls within the raid groups circle.
 
We currently have 4 raid groups (I think?) and you will rarely see more than 15-20 people online if there isn't a raid going on at that time because there just isn't anything to do. Level 50 blues are good enough to begin raiding in, and often epics aren't that good pre-raid so there is no reason to farm dungeons for loot.
 
The 8 people that are basically "my group" have carried so many people through attunement that we are basically burned out on dungeons and sit in mumble chatting while we play other games up until raid day. We really enjoyed the dungeons up until we had to start hard carrying people through the dungeons. And my original 5 had to do it twice, which made it that much worst. The guild we met in had us carrying people through for two weeks before we were informed that the decision had been made to not raid on weekends (only time we could raid) which forced us to find a new raid group/guild where we had to do it all over again and spent another 2 weeks carrying people through dungeons so the new raid group had enough people to raid.
 
Honestly, if there was anything that was on the verge of pushing me away, it would be the sheer number of people who can't get through silver dungeons on their own. It's exhausting having to carry someone through a dungeon listening to them throw excuse after excuse about why they died on boss X and it's not their fault. Or listen to them in the mumble channel explaining how they could gold X dungeon if they had good players to play with while they haven't even managed to successfully silver a single dungeon.
 
This is why I don't log in anymore except on raid days.
 
And for those that say it can't be done without a static group or voip...I earned 3/4 silvers using the LFG tool solo before I found a static group.
 
In the end, I think it all comes down to discontent. People are upset about so much, that they will look for anything to continue their anger at whatever is upsetting them. This discontent spreads throughout the guild and eventually it's just a group with a special tag.	
----
			
Guilds are "Failing" because people aren't staying in game. There are fixes coming for the reason so many are leaving, but I fear the MMO markets been ruined if you don't make a super happy everyone's a winner MMO it's doomed to fail. The genre in general is starting to leave a bad taste in my mouth because of the Community WoW made for MMO's in general. the only other Pay to Play MMO that is doing well is FF14 and that game literally hands you everything even their "Extreme" content is a joke.
 
The companies catered way to much to the entitled, (I won't say casual because there are to many different play styles in that word.) now the market is give everything out to everyone or fail. I'm not saying Carbine didn't have some questionable design choices, cause they so did, and needed to turn around on them quicker than they did. But this is generally why guilds are failing the game is bleeding subs, all a Guild leader can do to retain their players is try to be active in the guild and guide the guild to do things together creating bonds between members so players feel more likely to stick around through the rough times until it gets better.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The few guilds I joined in Wildstar tend to have the high ranking people or cliques that went on their own to accomplish what they wanted individually.  Or they just tried to recruit as many people as they could to collect taxes for themselves.  
 
But in general the great majority of people in Wildstar need to take a chill pill.  They act like they're a cupcake Lebron James.  Get real.
----
			
I think that way back in beta there was a number of us that tried to warn carbine that their endgame model was not current and they were stuck fifteen years in the past. I hardcore raided back in the EQ and WoW days and have a clear understanding what it takes to get it done. The number one issue with hardcore is that it takes a lot of time and the reality is that only a minority of the population has time like that and the not majority. The Devs said they were listening and instead they had their blinders on listening to the minority and not the majority. Since launch the proof has been in the server populations and the lack there of. The majority of people do not have lots of time to play and when they do, they want to have fun. Spending lots of time grinding, gating via attunement, waiting hours for a raid to start (logistics of getting 20 or 40 people together), etc ... is just not fun.
 
I am a fanboy of this game and before you hardcore fanboys jump all over this post, understand one thing. Fueling the fire the way you do is killing this game. You should be outraged that they have not listed to all those who play the game, because the game could be way better then what it is. Raids should be dynamic and should be able to support any number of players from 5-10 to 40 and should scale based on the number you have to raid with. This way there is little down time and you can rock and roll more easily. Raids should not take days to do rather hours and should be broken up into segements. There is so many ways they could have approached the entire elder game system instead of a model that no one is using any more and there is a reason for that. The other games realised if you want to grow and keep the majority of players then your end game needs to appeal to the majority and tailor it to the minoirty. That is reality and if you have tons of time to play the game then more power to you. I wish I had that kind of time, however, I do not.
 
Bottomeline is that if the elder game is not fun and appeals to the majority then no one is going to stay, because they do not have unlimited amounts of time to play for little gain. I for one still enjoy the game but that time is slowly coming to an end, because if there is not an elder game that I can be a part of then I will move on to something else. Unfortunatly all my friends have done so and that is a shame because they really like Wildstar.
 
So before you come on these boards and be like "Hardcore ya CUPCAKE!!!!!!!", just remember you are pouring fuel on the fire that is killing the game, because you are the minority and not the majority. Keep it up and the game will go f2p (because it has no other support) or they will be hardcore and at some point close the doors. I personally think if they make the elder game appeal to the majority, then this game could easily rival WoW numbers.
 
Problem is the Devs think they know what is best and are not listening to the entire player base just a small part of it  .........
 
Thanks	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I think that way back in beta there was a number of us that tried to warn carbine that their endgame model was not current and they were stuck fifteen years in the past. I hardcore raided back in the EQ and WoW days and have a clear understanding what it takes to get it done. The number one issue with hardcore is that it takes a lot of time and the reality is that only a minority of the population has time like that and the not majority. The Devs said they were listening and instead they had their blinders on listening to the minority and not the majority. Since launch the proof has been in the server populations and the lack there of. The majority of people do not have lots of time to play and when they do, they want to have fun. Spending lots of time grinding, gating via attunement, waiting hours for a raid to start (logistics of getting 20 or 40 people together), etc ... is just not fun.
 
I am a fanboy of this game and before you hardcore fanboys jump all over this post, understand one thing. Fueling the fire the way you do is killing this game. You should be outraged that they have not listed to all those who play the game, because the game could be way better then what it is. Raids should be dynamic and should be able to support any number of players from 5-10 to 40 and should scale based on the number you have to raid with. This way there is little down time and you can rock and roll more easily. Raids should not take days to do rather hours and should be broken up into segements. There is so many ways they could have approached the entire elder game system instead of a model that no one is using any more and there is a reason for that. The other games realised if you want to grow and keep the majority of players then your end game needs to appeal to the majority and tailor it to the minoirty. That is reality and if you have tons of time to play the game then more power to you. I wish I had that kind of time, however, I do not.
 
Bottomeline is that if the elder game is not fun and appeals to the majority then no one is going to stay, because they do not have unlimited amounts of time to play for little gain. I for one still enjoy the game but that time is slowly coming to an end, because if there is not an elder game that I can be a part of then I will move on to something else. Unfortunatly all my friends have done so and that is a shame because they really like Wildstar.
 
So before you come on these boards and be like "Hardcore ya CUPCAKE!!!!!!!", just remember you are pouring fuel on the fire that is killing the game, because you are the minority and not the majority. Keep it up and the game will go f2p (because it has no other support) or they will be hardcore and at some point close the doors. I personally think if they make the elder game appeal to the majority, then this game could easily rival WoW numbers.
 
Problem is the Devs think they know what is best and are not listening to the entire player base just a small part of it .........
 
Thanks
----
			
 After reading some posts about some of the hardcore guilds sweating bullets about finding more players to throw at bosses. I think this game might be more hardcore than even a lot of the hardcore can handle and are willing to admit.
 
I hope carbine can come to some resolve on these matters and not take all year to do changes... I really like this game and would hate to be forced to move on due to a community collapse and a toxic player enviroment.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Why so many guilds are failing
----
			
http://remnants-gaming.com/2014/08/29/wildstar/
This guy knows why	
----
			
I am in a leading 40 man guild.
 
I can handle critisism but I cant handle stupid.
 
What does a game like wow have that WS does not have?
 
Daily quests
Battlegrounds & Arena
Crafting
Dungeons
Raids
Achivements
 
The only thing WOW has that WS does not is pet battles and the horrible LFR. Both things a lot of people absolutely HATE.
 
The reason people quit WS is because they find the content too HARD and they suck at gaming, then they flock the forum claiming WS has no content. People want to do everything today. No one wants to form bonds any more, finding 5 people, finding a guild, DOING WORK TO GET STUFF.
 
MMOs the last 5 years spoiled players with everything from mounts to epic gear by almost just logging in.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I am in a leading 40 man guild.
 
I can handle critisism but I cant handle stupid.
 
What does a game like wow have that WS does not have?
 
Daily quests
Battlegrounds & Arena
Crafting
Dungeons
Raids
Achivements
 
The only thing WOW has that WS does not is pet battles and the horrible LFR. Both things a lot of people absolutely HATE.
 
The reason people quit WS is because they find the content too HARD and they suck at gaming, then they flock the forum claiming WS has no content. People want to do everything today. No one wants to form bonds any more, finding 5 people, finding a guild, DOING WORK TO GET STUFF.
 
MMOs the last 5 years spoiled players with everything from mounts to epic gear by almost just logging in.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
you obviously diden't read the post in the link xD
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
you obviously diden't read the post in the link xD
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I did. He is crying because THEY lost 50% of their raiding roster. This happens in every MMO after a launch. You suck it up and find replacements. In vanilla wow we lost up to 80% of our guild roster because of the attunement progress back then, but the remaining 20 and the replacements we got lasted until wotlk destroyed wows diffucilty
 
My comment was a mere observation of the (former) playerbase, crying that WS has no content. Which is an absolute lie.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I did. He is crying because THEY lost 50% of their raiding roster. This happens in every MMO after a launch. You suck it up and find replacements. In vanilla wow we lost up to 80% of our guild roster because of the attunement progress back then, but the remaining 20% and the replacements we found lasted until wotlk destroyed wows diffucilty
 
My comment was a mere observation of the (former) playerbase, crying that WS has no content. Which is an absolute lie.
----
			
I was asked earlier on a different forum too summ up the things wrong with the game(Not my opinions it's just what i have read over and over in different threads)
Too many buggs Not enough fixesAttunement begin pointless, tedious and frustratingSomething something elder gems (Don't know about this one haven't been max level yet) (tho this one i heard has already been fixed but again i dono)Too much RnG on runesJust too little to do at max levelAnd PvP begin brokenIs what i have absorbed as reasons from all the posts and threads i have read	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I think that there is no single reason why people leave games.
 
I also think these kind of threads are getting extremely bland and boring and have been for the last month.
 
Time to move on and either play the game, wait for fixes or leave it.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I was asked earlier on a different forum too summ up the things wrong with the game(Not my opinions it's just what i have read over and over in different threads)
Too many buggs Not enough fixes
Attunement begin pointless, tedious and frustrating
Something something elder gems (Don't know about this one haven't been max level yet) (tho this one i heard has already been fixed but again i dono)
Too much RnG on runes
Just too little to do at max level
And PvP begin broken
 
Is what i have absorbed as reasons from all the posts and threads i have read
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I can definitely relate to the OP's theories.
The pressure/anxiety/stress really gets to me to a degree where I hesitate to run vet dungeons.
I'd consider myself an.... average gamer. Can keep up with the majority in games in general, can really stomp on the true baddies, get schooled by the very skilled people.
And I can keep up in what I've played of Wildstar so far, but it's extremely stressful. When it all works out, things are obviously fine, but when I mess up... wow, real feelings of shame/guilt. Because yeah: I missed that interrupt and just cost the group silver. Or cast the heal finisher a milisecond too late for the tank. Or, or, or...
Not quite what I want the larger part of my free time to consist of.
 
Some people might say "stop caring so much" but... I don't think I can.  :unsure:
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This is EXACTLY it. This is the same problem I'm having, thats why I refuse to run dungeons (even though I would like to) because I know they will be both difficult and time consuming (not to mention unrewarding).
 
My server is almost deserted, I find myself questing alone (unable to complete group quests) as they are no players in sight, and /zone /general are completely silent. I still wonder why Carbine thought it was a good idea to cater to a "hardcore" demographic. I hope fixes are coming because I'm really having second thoughts, would hate to have wasted $15.00.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I think that way back in beta there was a number of us that tried to warn carbine that their endgame model was not current and they were stuck fifteen years in the past. I hardcore raided back in the EQ and WoW days and have a clear understanding what it takes to get it done. The number one issue with hardcore is that it takes a lot of time and the reality is that only a minority of the population has time like that and the not majority. The Devs said they were listening and instead they had their blinders on listening to the minority and not the majority. Since launch the proof has been in the server populations and the lack there of. The majority of people do not have lots of time to play and when they do, they want to have fun. Spending lots of time grinding, gating via attunement, waiting hours for a raid to start (logistics of getting 20 or 40 people together), etc ... is just not fun.
 
I am a fanboy of this game and before you hardcore fanboys jump all over this post, understand one thing. Fueling the fire the way you do is killing this game. You should be outraged that they have not listed to all those who play the game, because the game could be way better then what it is. Raids should be dynamic and should be able to support any number of players from 5-10 to 40 and should scale based on the number you have to raid with. This way there is little down time and you can rock and roll more easily. Raids should not take days to do rather hours and should be broken up into segements. There is so many ways they could have approached the entire elder game system instead of a model that no one is using any more and there is a reason for that. The other games realised if you want to grow and keep the majority of players then your end game needs to appeal to the majority and tailor it to the minoirty. That is reality and if you have tons of time to play the game then more power to you. I wish I had that kind of time, however, I do not.
 
Bottomeline is that if the elder game is not fun and appeals to the majority then no one is going to stay, because they do not have unlimited amounts of time to play for little gain. I for one still enjoy the game but that time is slowly coming to an end, because if there is not an elder game that I can be a part of then I will move on to something else. Unfortunatly all my friends have done so and that is a shame because they really like Wildstar.
 
So before you come on these boards and be like "Hardcore ya CUPCAKE!!!!!!!", just remember you are pouring fuel on the fire that is killing the game, because you are the minority and not the majority. Keep it up and the game will go f2p (because it has no other support) or they will be hardcore and at some point close the doors. I personally think if they make the elder game appeal to the majority, then this game could easily rival WoW numbers.
 
Problem is the Devs think they know what is best and are not listening to the entire player base just a small part of it  .........
 
Thanks
----