107953-the-nexus-report-nerfing-the-attunement-page-3

Page 1, Page 2, Page 3, Page 4, Page 5, Page 6, Page 7, Page 8
== Content ==
			
{| class="blockquote"
I'll be honest, I am fully behind the change to timers, and yet I'm looking forward to people inevitably showing up to complain about the difficulty of the raids.
 
Because I was behind the change for practical reasons, but I'm not of the mind that the content needs to be eased up.  I almost eagerly await the people who actually asked for the change because they couldn't handle vet dungeons running into GA and getting slapped around by the trash.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This is the sentiment I've been trying to express in this entire thread.
This is the only reason the thread was posted in the first place.
 
But, everyone would rather attack me as person, than debate the point.
 
This is not about the demotion from Silver to Bronze for the attunement - it's the precedent set because of it.
Timetravel has said they currently have no plans to change GA - but that can change in time, and just the right amount of nonsensical complaining.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Hey everybody, 
 
This is just a remember to keep the discussion friendly and constructive. Discuss the idea and don't attack the person posting it.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The good is that more people will get to raid, the bad undoubtedly is that this simply moves the barrier. As those saying they will not complain about raids difficulty must think us to be naive. If complaining was not your first response to meeting content that's harder, you wouldn't have done so on dungeons so that habit is already formed and mostly even before entering this game.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
LIke I said back on page 3 or something - wait and see. If they start nerfing content due to posts of outrage then ok, you can all come back and scream I told you so. 
 
They had to do something - the game was in serious jeopardy if they didn't. Is this the best solution? Not at all. I personally don't mind the timer and would rather see a change to make the whole attunement non-linear. I think that would have been a much better solution. But I'm guessing that would take way longer to implement and this isn't exactly a patient crowd.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The good is that more people will get to raid, the bad undoubtedly is that this simply moves the barrier. As those saying they will not complain about raids difficulty must think us to be naive. If complaining was not your first response to meeting content that's harder, you wouldn't have done so on dungeons so that habit is already formed and mostly even before entering this game. 
 
A change from silver to bronze does make things easier, as bronze requires a lot less consistent play, while silver requires you to play consistent for the time in there, this consistent play is required in raids as they often have mechanics in were a single player mistake from yes, just a dps can wipe you. A single player can often make a difference between you one shotting something and it taking the whole evening and raids last hours longer then your average silver dungeon.
 
My only concern is this, a repeat of cataclysm, where one week we faced a fine tuned fight requiring as good as all alive, the week after all things got nerfed in across the board making it so we could do all content on heroic with less then a full group on 25 man, now this is an extreme example but it's something we experienced before and yes said content being nerfed does reduce our enjoyment of doing said content. 
Now, i only have Ohmna left to do, so if they start nerfing i was at least lucky to experience the content as intended. That does not however make me happy if i can do everything blindly the week after as replay ability is as important in raids.
 
So TT, While i can accept something has to be done and you did say GA will not be touched beyond bug fixing, i believe the same was mentioned for silver dungeons. However you can argue silver dungeons weren't touched the attunement was.
 
 
Perhaps i'm wrong and the lure of epics will be a greater motivation for people to put more effort in raids then they did in dungeons, but this is something i'll want to see before i believe that.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This is the sentiment I've been trying to express in this entire thread.
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
So you really want to UP the skill check? How many groups go clear them all without a single death? What's the point? Why do you care SO MUCH that people possibly less skilled than yourself will see the inside of a raid? If they suck they won't kill anything, won't get loot and you can hold yourself above them as so hardcore. If you don't want to deal with them then just make your personal recruitment standards the way you want. Why does it matter what others do?
 
And don't hop on the slippery slope train of "well they'll cave and nerf future stuff". That is flawed logic. They have not nerfed any CONTENT and have said they don't have any plans to do so and are even quite happy with the balance in GA.
----
			That part of the Attunement was hurting the game. Only a incredibly selfish or incredibly dense human being would be mad about the change. They want and need to make money.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
 
Then maybe your OP shouldn't have started with how you had to EARN your attunement, and now that's just been made MEANINGLESS.
 
Because that sentiment and the one you're now claiming was your original intent are quite different.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
If they suck they won't kill anything, won't get loot and you can hold yourself above them as so hardcore. If you don't want to deal with them then just make your personal recruitment standards the way you want. Why does it matter what others do?
 
And don't hop on the slippery slope train of "well they'll cave and nerf future stuff". That is flawed logic. They have not nerfed any CONTENT and have said they don't have any plans to do so and are even quite happy with the balance in GA.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yes!!! I just had to listen to weeks of senseless whining about how "timers don't make sense." If I begin to accept that premise, then what you have left is skill.
 
Is it so wrong to require skill before entering the hardest raid an MMORPG has ever seen?
 
I think no player dying would be an excellent measure of that.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
True, the argument has been made over and over that if they would be let into raids everything will be alright. These changes will make things easier for both new and existing guilds and give guilds closer to DS a bigger pool to recruit or even snipe players from, so if at least GA remains untouched we can all win from this. 
 
So we'll see although in my honest opinion X89 is a fairly easy and forgiving encounter on several fronts, after that things ramp up slowly i find that GA has a good progression curve. I honestly would be surprised if we didn't see a few complain posts a week after these changes about raids. Together with the request to make raids smaller as finding 20 players is too hard. 
----
			
So ummm not to be more of a moron than I already am, but was there an ETA on this change?
 
Gonna try and poke some people to come back and watch the recent nexus report as I know a few who would be interested.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
So ummm not to be more of a moron than I already am, but was there an ETA on this change?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yes!!! I just had to listen to weeks of senseless whining about how "timers don't make sense." If I begin to accept that premise, then what you have left is skill.
 
Is it so wrong to require skill before entering the hardest raid an MMORPG has ever seen?
 
I think no player dying would be an excellent measure of that.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
So ummm not to be more of a moron than I already am, but was there an ETA on this change?
 
Gonna try and poke some people to come back and watch the recent nexus report as I know a few who would be interested.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
No, that's precisely it… its not flawed logic at all. That's precisely what will happen. If they felt this barrier was costing them players, the next barrier will too - nerfs will be constant.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
Is it so wrong to require skill before entering the hardest raid an MMORPG has ever seen?
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It isn't fair to assume they won't do as they've said. 
 
I still say as long as CONTENT is not nerfed, I don't see the problem. Why do people care who gets into other guilds raids? Everyone can control their own recruitment process. Why does it matter so much?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This is not me gloating Leth. I told you it was a pointless battle when the guys at the top of the Food Chain, so to speak, started dissing it. It is not just the perceived bads that didn't like it. When the people at the top of the pyramid started to complain it was obvious what needed to happen.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It isn't fair to assume they won't do as they've said. 
 
I still say as long as CONTENT is not nerfed, I don't see the problem. Why do people care who gets into other guilds raids? Everyone can control their own recruitment process. Why does it matter so much?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Nope, it's entirely sensible to require players to understand how their character works (level 50 requirement), what their role is in a group (dungeon/adventures requirements), and how to be part of a large group (world boss/event) requirements as conditions to ENTERING a raid.
 
And those now ARE the conditions to enter a raid. So nicely done, Carbine.
 
WINNING a raid should require considerably more skill than is required just to enter it, but that's the role of the raid itself and not the attunement process. The skill requirements to enter a raid should never even be close to the skill requirements to win the raid.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Those are conditions - PROOF is what gold in a dungeon would do for me.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I couldn't possibly care less about the "top of the food chain" and in this instance they should ESPECIALLY be ignored.
 
After 2 iterations (first the loot, now this) remnants of an existing system behind clung to… to retain players?  That's not the right reason. This is a bad design for the game.
 
This change deserves a reversal, or an immediate "this is not final…" response.  Discussion of other options such as a timer-less gold run instead of bronze need to be on the table for WildStar to retain any sense of its soul.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yes!!! I just had to listen to weeks of senseless whining about how "timers don't make sense." If I begin to accept that premise, then what you have left is skill.
 
Is it so wrong to require skill before entering the hardest raid an MMORPG has ever seen?
 
I think no player dying would be an excellent measure of that.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Uh, the only thing you need to prove that you can do dungeons and adventures is a bronze. Wow, you don't seem very familiar with how these medals work.
----
			/signed please don't nerf silvers...for the love of god	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I mean, it's a win-win as far as I'm concerned.  On the one hand, this may open it up for more potential raiders who were simply not interested in the overall timers.  This may make it easier to attune other members of a guild to be able to more easily replace people on alternate raid nights.
 
And on the other hand, oh... the delicious tears once a few people crash into GA and find out that it wasn't the timers keeping them from raiding.  If they fail in the raid, they'll find little sympathy here.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
They *just* did something they said they would not do. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I disagree. I'm going to go click the re-subscribe button now :D . I suggest we all start putting this energy towards the next issue which is the Amp and Ability Upgrade system. This battle is over. The Amp system is going to hurt the game down the line. That is something I think we can all agree on.
 
For the record it was never about the difficulty for me. It was about having people to play the game with above all else.
 
P.S. I don't think Carbine will be forced to back down from Hard Content in Raids. Everyone who showed up was expecting that. They were not expecting the gate.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I disagree. I'm going to go click the re-subscribe button now :D . I suggest we all start putting this energy towards the next issue which is the Amp and Ability Upgrade system. This battle is over. The Amp system is going to hurt the game down the line. That is something I think we can all agree on.
 
For the record it was never about the difficulty for me. It was about having people to play the game with above all else.
 
P.S. I don't think Carbine will be forced to back down from Hard Content in Raids. Everyone who showed up was expecting that. They were not expecting the gate.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
What does speed running have to do with raiding? Changing it to bronze means that you don't have to spend extra time re-running a dungeon that you already know and likely have done many times already.
 
Again, running the dungeons fast has no meaningful correlation to raiding.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Some will never accept that the problem is behind the PC and not the game in front of them, it's not a matter of sympathy but pure denial. Luckily we still reserve the option to merely remove said individuals from our guilds and raid groups and never worry about them, as Right now we still need to evaluate players in raids the attunement didn't do our "job" for us, it will simply mean processing more players some will fail some won't. 
 
Now if we would actually get a change to lock outs from instances to just bosses that would really make a guilds life easier and give us more leeway to trial people. 
 
I think we can even hold a bet,
 
Wondering what the next biggest complaint will be, My top 3 is, "Trash is too hard", "20 mans are too large, can't find 20 players", "WTF is up with these egg rooms". Yes i'm not even touching the actual bosses or even mini-bosses yet, although Genetic monstrosity will be food for tears.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Why are players able to post if you aren't subscribed? That needs to change, pronto.
 
I'm so tired of playing games with players who refuse to put in effort commensurate to reward - they just want reward. Now that you don't have to try, you're coming back?
 
I absolutely hate what the players of the games in this genre have become.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
No, you could have died 30 times. That doesn't help me or my raid team. Bronze… I mean is it even possible to NOT get bronze?
 
No, I feel requiring Gold with no timer is the fair compromise - ensures skill, but removes the main thing everyone was bitching about all these weeks - timers.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
No, you could have died 30 times. That doesn't help me or my raid team. Bronze… I mean is it even possible to NOT get bronze?
 
No, I feel requiring Gold with no timer is the fair compromise - ensures skill, but removes the main thing everyone was bitching about all these weeks - timers.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I used CREDD  for this month. Again. It was never about Difficulty for me. I don't get it dude. Are you upset because the game probably won't be going F2P now or because you'll have more people to play it with? *snickers*
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The system isnt to bad.. i would like to see it more attached to longetivity and not plat or elder gems..So characters that have been around for a long time would naturally have more.. but not having more isnt game breaking either.
----
			
So... on topic: I may actually start bringing my alts through attunement now! Had an Esper sitting on elder gems for weeks now and couldn't get the courage to run him through another bout of attunement.
 
Dang it Buster.	
----
			So back to my proposal… what would be wrong with requiring a Gold without timers, instead of just a Bronze? Doesn't this make more sense in upholding the "skill" portion of the promise, but remove the timers that everyone deemed "unrelated to skill" anyway?	
----
			Experience raid leaders would just have to do extra work to evaluated the new players instead of just using the attune system to filter them out. Other raid leaders would just have to learn as they go.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
So back to my proposal… what would be wrong with requiring a Gold without timers, instead of just a Bronze? Doesn't this make more sense in upholding the "skill" portion of the promise, but remove the timers that everyone deemed "unrelated to skill" anyway?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
its the exact same problem, basically.
 
right now, its 20 mins in STL, then 60+ mins on Stormtalon himself.
 
in your proposal instead of wiping once or twice before disbanding, it will only take 1 wipe .. so its actually worse.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
What this does is *ensure* that a skilled and practiced team are what it meant to complete the dungeon and access the raid. 
 
And that's what I'm talking about - this is a stop-gap to appease a certain group of players, but is not an elegant final solution. Putting skill back into it by RAISING the medal to gold, but removing the timers from medal runs would be more in line with what Carbine promnised to deliver for WildStar.
----
			
Totally agree with the first statement here. The challenge should be actually completing the content, not just trying to get to it. Look at everything else in the game and it screams the same theme.
 
Gold is a wash, rep can be farmed just by completing all the dungeons in a zone, crafted gear is on par with most of the stuff from the veteran dungeons, yet people still regularly fail to clear the dungeon content.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It's alright Yas, I know it can be hard to make it to the bottom of a post.
Here's what my post says: 
 
 
Thanks for proving my point, though.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
So... on topic: I may actually start bringing my alts through attunement now! Had an Esper sitting on elder gems for weeks now and couldn't get the courage to run him through another bout of attunement.
 
Dang it Buster.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
They already fixed the loot problem, and this would speak volumes to their belief about needing a well-practed team to tackle difficult group content, instead of 5 warm bodes.
 
I mean, is it not up to players who really want to raid to rally 4 like-minded players to get it done? If they're putting up with wipe-n-runs then its on them - they can easily find players who will not do that if they are serious about raiding.
----
			Kind of weird it took them so long to get around doing this considering they can check sub numbers.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
So back to my proposal… what would be wrong with requiring a Gold without timers, instead of just a Bronze? Doesn't this make more sense in upholding the "skill" portion of the promise, but remove the timers that everyone deemed "unrelated to skill" anyway?
----
			
So in the end, what this will really do is stop the QQ for a month and then open up a new floodgate. Just give it some time and people start realising they've been "progressing" on a miniboss in GA for weeks and it wasn't actually their outstanding morals of not skipping any trash, but rather a lack of skill that prevented them from attuning before.
 
Well, I suppose the complaints about silver dungeons being too hard did get a bit stale, lets see what arguments people start bringing as to why GA should be nerfed to their level.
 
Oh well *grabs popcorn*	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Well, guild is gone anyway. They won't be coming back. This change was too little, too late for them. Now I have to decide whether to bother with the year long elder gem grind, mindless dailies and terrible dungeons after hitting max level on my esper or follow my friends. Hopefully, these changes will save some of the guilds and circles that are on the verge of breaking up.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
So TT, While i can accept something has to be done and you did say GA will not be touched beyond bug fixing, i believe the same was mentioned for silver dungeons. However you can argue silver dungeons weren't touched the attunement was.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
"Trash is too hard"
"WTF is up with these egg rooms"
Genetic monstrosity will be food for tears.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Kind of weird it took them so long to get around doing this considering they can check sub numbers.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I think the silvers will be in a better place, now. They were balanced around being a challenge for people to attempt when running the veteran dungeons--after learning them. However, when added to the attunement they became a 'wall' instead of an 'achievement.'
 
Additionally, I believe that Genetic Archives has turned out very positively and this change allows more players to see some of what (in my rather biased opinion) is some of the strongest content Wildstar has to offer--all without the need to reduce its difficulty.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I think the silvers will be in a better place, now. They were balanced around being a challenge for people to attempt when running the veteran dungeons--after learning them. However, when added to the attunement they became a 'wall' instead of an 'achievement.'
 
Additionally, I believe that Genetic Archives has turned out very positively and this change allows more players to see some of what (in my rather biased opinion) is some of the strongest content Wildstar has to offer--all without the need to reduce its difficulty.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Actually, I have a related question for you that you appear to have ignored, so I'll ask it again. Your thoughts on people getting carried? Don't they break the "skill" portion of the promise even more than people completing attunements with Bronze?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I can't wait.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
But Jeff, how does letting less skilled, less organized, or less social players into a place that requires all of those things x10 actually make a better experience for them?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Don't unsub, just buy CREDD! I guarantee there's somebody out there willing to subsidize your gaming experience.
 
Carbine does make improvements, even if it doesn't seem like it at any given time. I get the feeling like they'll do pretty much anything to keep their baby alive.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I can't wait.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
They *just* did something they said they would not do. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
To be fair, that's what we're paying them for.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Why are players able to post if you aren't subscribed? That needs to change, pronto.
 
I'm so tired of playing games with players who refuse to put in effort commensurate to reward - they just want reward. Now that you don't have to try, you're coming back?
 
I absolutely hate what the players of the games in this genre have become.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
How about you let the players themselves be the judges of that instead of sticking to some weird idea of benevolent gatekeeping?
They don't need some kind of patronizing "shepherd caste" to keep them from getting hurt by the eeeevul meanie raid bosses.
----
			
All I get from this is "But I won't look as special now that all the plebs can do it"
 
Seriously, the timers were stupid and out of place.  Kudos if you had the drive to do that stuff before the change, but that doesn't make the timers any more valuable to the game.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You wouldn't be able to carry anyone if they couldn't stay alive… hence the reasoning for Gold requirements. With no timers.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
But Brett, how does letting less skilled, less organized, or less social players into a place that requires all of those things x10 actually make a better experience for them?
----
			
Hi Carbine,
 
I'm a french player from a little french guild. We began working for silver dungeons ~7 weeks ago. We have a guild full of ~25/30 years old players, that are not good - we are pretty bad indeed. It was a real challenge and a ton of fun to succeed in having 5 to 10 people ready to raid. That's one of the coolest content I did in a MMO so far.
 
I just learnt that Carbine intent to make it from silver to bronze. What... ? We defended this game and invited a ton of people to play it this last monthes. You said you'll never dumb this game down. We cannot trust you anymore. Most of us are really sad right now - we feel cheated, and we began talking about moving on another game. This is bad for you, and this is sad for us.
 
The stupid thing is : this DOES NOT FIX the problem. The problem was that a timer wasn't a really good mechanic.
 
The real fix would be to change the silver from "timer" to "no death" and the gold from "no death" to "timer".
 
Please, think about it twice. You're about to do a terrible mistake. You had a vision. Keep it. This vision will make you succeed. The path you're chosing now is not the good path.	
----
			Looking at the 20 man raids video, the only time I see timers as needed is in the last boss due to the falling platform. 	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I think the silvers will be in a better place, now. They were balanced around being a challenge for people to attempt when running the veteran dungeons--after learning them. However, when added to the attunement they became a 'wall' instead of an 'achievement.'
 
Additionally, I believe that Genetic Archives has turned out very positively and this change allows more players to see some of what (in my rather biased opinion) is some of the strongest content Wildstar has to offer--all without the need to reduce its difficulty.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
if there only job is to not die, while 4 other ppl kill stuff ... yes ... they were carried.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The designers themselves are the ones who decided  that players wouldn't be judging that for themselves - the process and test of skill would. 
----
			the one thing that sucks about this .. is no one is going to run dungeons until this hits :|	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Right you are.
 
I suppose my point is that they are doing what we pay them for. Or what we let somebody else pay them for. :)
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Hi Carbine,
 
I'm a french player from a little french guild. We began working for silver dungeons ~7 weeks ago. We have a guild full of ~25/30 years old players, that are not good - we are pretty bad indeed. It was a real challenge and a ton of fun to succeed in having 5 to 10 people ready to raid. That's one of the coolest content I did in a MMO so far.
 
I just learnt that Carbine intent to make it from silver to bronze. What... ? We defended this game and invited a ton of people to play it this last monthes. You said you'll never dumb this game down. We cannot trust you anymore. Most of us are really sad right now - we feel cheated, and we began talking about moving on another game. This is bad for you, and this is sad for us.
 
The stupid thing is : this DOES NOT FIX the problem. The problem was that a timer wasn't a really good mechanic.
 
The real fix would be to change the silver from "timer" to "no death" and the gold from "no death" to "timer".
 
Please, think about it twice. You're about to do a terrible mistake. You had a vision. Keep it. This vision will make you succeed. The path you're chosing now is not the good path.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Hey, either or. :)
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
the one thing that sucks about this .. is no one is going to run dungeons until this hits :|
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yea. Did they give an ETA? I wonder if TimeTravel can help us out here. :D
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I think the silvers will be in a better place, now. They were balanced around being a challenge for people to attempt when running the veteran dungeons--after learning them. However, when added to the attunement they became a 'wall' instead of an 'achievement.'
 
Additionally, I believe that Genetic Archives has turned out very positively and this change allows more players to see some of what (in my rather biased opinion) is some of the strongest content Wildstar has to offer--all without the need to reduce its difficulty.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You say this now.  You've already broken that trust with this nerf if it goes through, so how can you be trusted to keep your word on this?  All you've done is prove if these terrible casuals whine cry and stomp their feet enough you'll cater to them.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The real fix would be to change the silver from "timer" to "no death" and the gold from "no death" to "timer".
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You say this now.  You've already broken that trust with this nerf if it goes through, so how can you be trusted to keep your word on this?  All you've done is prove if these terrible casuals whine cry and stomp their feet enough you'll cater to them.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You say this now.  You've already broken that trust with this nerf if it goes through, so how can you be trusted to keep your word on this?  All you've done is prove if these terrible casuals whine cry and stomp their feet enough you'll cater to them.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Why. Do. You. Care?
 
It is THEIR experience, not yours. There is nothing wrong with making content more accessible, as long as you don't make said content easier.
----
			I don't think the devs care if raid leaders now have to do extra work to see if players can raid. 	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Because THEIR feedback is going to be based on THEIR experience, which is going to be EVEN WORSE than not being able to get a simple Silver on a dungeon!
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Because THEIR feedback is going to be based on THEIR experience, which is going to be EVEN WORSE than not being able to get a simple Silver on a dungeon!
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yes, and as long as the result is not a nerf to content, what does it matter? TT has already said they won't nerf it and implied he is eager for their tears.
Where is the problem?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Except the devs have already said, in this very thread, that they won't nerf the content. They never said anything about not nerfing the attunement process. In fact, they hinted very early on that it wasn't meeting their expectations.
 
Edit: ^^ Great minds think alike.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Because they *will* nerf it. All this is doing is moving the barrier a little further down the road. The same set of players who complained and couldn't get a Silver will now be a the stage where they can't get a raid kill. Not a single one.
 
What will Carbine do? Will they let the players go at that point? But why, when they went to the lengths of saving them now? Likely they will… nerf the content.
 
 
 
You promised I was on ignore.  But I appreciate not being there ;)
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
They won't nerf content immediately, but if you think that Raids won't be nerfed as new Tiers open up I'd like to be the 1st to congratulate you on your 1st MMORPG.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
and when the content doesnt meet their expectations?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
and when the content doesnt meet their expectations?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Currently we expect players to naturally get more and more powerful over time. New dungeons, content, etc will allow players to become more geared and more used to their class. They will also have more time to purchase upgrades such as Ability Tier and AMP points. The raids will naturally get 'nerfed' over time simply because player power will continue to rise.
----
			Will laugh when the devs decided to make raids harder.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
They've already said that it does.
----
			They're backing themselves into a corner.  If they're doing this to try and preserve the casuals that cannot perform at a minimum level then when they hit the next "wall" they will complain and threaten to leave so to avoid losing them THEN they will have to water down the content for everyone even those that do not want it to be nerfed.  Better to lose them now then go down this path.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
They said, literally as late as today, in this very thread, they will not do that. So which is it?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
currently sir...currently
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
They're backing themselves into a corner.  If they're doing this to try and preserve the casuals that cannot perform at a minimum level then when they hit the next "wall" they will complain and threaten to leave so to avoid losing them THEN they will have to water down the content for everyone even those that do not want it to be nerfed.  Better to lose them now then go down this path.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I highly doubt they need to nerf the content.  That conversation has already been going around, much to the dev's amusement.
 
I think the "attunement is a gate" talk annoys them somewhat, since they want people to cry about the difficulty of the raids.  That is what they banked their PVE experience on publicly, that their raids are harder than Russel Brand on two viagra compared to everyone else.
----
			
Precisely. Attunement is SUPPOSED to be a wall. A small wall to soften the hard wall you hit when you enter raids for the first time.
 
And for the "why are you concerned" thing : I am concerned because raid attunement is MY content. Maybe it's not yours, so you don't care, but it is my content.
 
It's like climbing a wall for weeks, being proud of being 50% done, and see someone open a door in it. So all this efforts were pointless in the end. All the challenge disappears.
 
Don't tell me "well you can STILL find the challenge". Yes, of course. We can all try SSM gold naked. We can try to 1-man KV. You can create challenge. But if there is no reward, the challenge lose its flavor. It doesn't feel "solid" anymore.
 
It's like making half of the GA boss optionnal, then say "HEY WE DIDN'T NERF ANYTHING, LOOK, CONTENT IS STILL THERE !"
 
This is not the carbine I supported.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I don't care.
 
Honestly it was a bit annoying to see certain people think that just because they finally got attuned (after a hard and long struggle) that they were entitled to raid loot. When they found out that raid bosses were harder still than dungeons, they'd quit, whine, come up with excuses. I'd love to see their reaction to Datascape.
 
Good riddance, Towelliee and crew, and all those other streamers who were trying to get attuned for weeks running dungeons 8+ hours a day only to leave because it didn't mean they beat the game.
----
			Well the 20 man raids can be an attunement for 40 man raids.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Precisely. Attunement is SUPPOSED to be a wall. A small wall to soften the hard wall you hit when you enter raids for the first time.
 
And for the "why are you concerned" thing : I am concerned because raid attunement is MY content. Maybe it's not yours, so you don't care, but it is my content.
 
It's like climbing a wall for weeks, being proud of being 50% done, and see someone open a door in it. So all this efforts were pointless in the end. All the challenge disappears.
 
Don't tell me "well you can STILL find the challenge". Yes, of course. We can all try SSM gold naked. We can try to 1-man KV. You can create challenge. But if there is no reward, the challenge lose its flavor. It doesn't feel "solid" anymore.
 
It's like making half of the GA boss optionnal, then say "HEY WE DIDN'T NERF ANYTHING, LOOK, CONTENT IS STILL THERE !"
 
This is not the carbine I supported.
----
			When people start complaining about how hard it is to get gold on Adventures then I would be worried. If people really want to get to into raids, LET THEM! If these no skilled "casuals" start to raid they should fail miserably right?	
----
			
And that's sad. Now we can either roll on the attunement, or be depressed on the raids.
 
But the content for the people "too good for bronze, too bad for r20" ? Gone. :/	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You wouldn't be able to carry anyone if they couldn't stay alive… hence the reasoning for Gold requirements. With no timers.
----
			
I don't see how removing the timer from attunement dumbs down content. It's the same content just not run as fast, and let's not pretend that we all did these silvers with no cheeses and jumping over things you shouldn't be able to to save time. Personally I have started feeling bad for the tanks in our guild cause they have been forced to grind people through these runs time and time again to make sure we are good to go.
 
I can tell you this if you are not a good raider you will not be raiding reguardless of what you did to get into the raid. I've also seen people selling silver runs so not everyone earned theirs anyways. 
 
You will still need silver to unlock your specials so they still serve a purpose plus you get more loot. 
 
The purpose of attunment is to make sure you can work together as a team and complete content, this serves that purpose and weeds out people that can't follow instructions on the way up. 	
----
			I though you can't PuB for raids and actually need to join a guild.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I though you can't PuB for raids and actually need to join a guild.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Preface: Sure, I'm a tryhard. I'm a hardcore fanboy. I'm an idiot. I'm a masochist. etc. etc.
 
After watching the nexus report today, I'm completely and utterly disheartened.
The one part of this game that made me love it so much was the difficulty.
 
Without a doubt, this is one of the hardest MMO's I've played to date (10 years in MMO experience).
During the nexus report, a single statement about the current state of the attunement process left me speechless...
 
 
"We are dropping the timers so that players now only have to complete Bronze medals in order to satisfy that portion of the attunement."
 
 
What does this mean for the rest of us? 
Those of us that put countless hours into bugged out Vet Dungeon bosses to acquire Silver medals.
 
----
			
Raiders make giant thread about 300PPP too much, now its 100PPP (no cry threads about this, aint that interesting)
 
Raiders make complaint 'im tired of running people through silver dungeons all day, fix this' - Carbine helps by removing timer portion of attunement, this will allow heaps more people through this step, reducing burden on raiding guilds to back track.
 
Yet some elitists cry about this?
 
Oh do shut up.
 
This is a positive change.
 
More people available to raid, less backtracking for everyone, no difficulty removed.
 
Win/win.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Raiders make giant thread about 300PPP too much, now its 100PPP (no cry threads about this, aint that interesting)
 
Raiders make complaint 'im tired of running people through silver dungeons all day, fix this' - Carbine helps by removing timer portion of attunement, this will allow heaps more people through this step, reducing burden on raiding guilds to back track.
 
Yet some elitists cry about this?
 
Oh do shut up.
 
This is a positive change.
 
More people available to raid, less backtracking for everyone, no difficulty removed.
 
Win/win.
----
			
Dropping the requirement to bronze is good. People can just headbang at the bosses all days long but at least in the end after their 2hours trying, they get reward and pass the attument. They had to dodge the red circles, they had to interupt in order to down the bosses anyway. I dont see a practical reason to gate them by time it. Timing it make PUG run impossible, make too much stress to the team. When you failed two times, by mistakes/errors/whatever, you gotta disband. People bitched at each others how fail they are causing losing subs/player base.
 
Now, at least they can do dungeon at their own pace and just complete it then they're set to raid. It's good approach. You dont lose anything. The content still as hard as it is, just no timer. Sadly this came too late, and myself already lost all my team/guild. Not too sure if we will be able to be back but at least it's a good sign that Devs actually see my point.
 
Elitist jerks / hardcore raiders lose nothing but gaining. The hardcore guild actually getting benefits from it as there will be more people attuned by themselves. They dont have to assist everyone of them for attuning now. Even so the assist gotta be much easier as there will be no timer.	
----
			
Well, this change pretty much only hurts the grinders. What is a 'grinder' you ask?
In hockey it is a third or fourth line player, in baseball a hitter who makes a pitcher throw a lot of pitches, players who aren't the most skilled but make up for it perseverance.
These grinders will see less-dedicated but higher skilled players compete for their A team raid spot now.
 
This change helps GLs/RLs more than anyone. Why is that?
The biggest challenge in GA, and to a greater extent in DS, is the logistics of filling those 20 or 40 roster spots. Often they take grinders to fill the raid.
At this point in the game, the ranks should be swelling, not constricting. This could be a nice kick in the pants so RLs and GLs are fielding B teams instead of struggling just to field their A.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It has FULL CORRELATION AS SOMEONE ALREADY POINTED OUT IN THE THREAD
 
If you dont finish a dungeon in time = Not doing mobs correctly, wiping too much, not doing mechanics of boss properly. If you did all that correctly YOUD MAKE THE TIMER
 
IN RAIDS, if you dont kill X89 in time even after getting all the mechanics down, YOU WIPE AND LOSE,
 
H
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
If all people have to do is complain that something is too hard to see it nerfed - what's going to happen to the raid content when those players, who couldn't finish attunement until this nerf, hit the wall in GA? Will content be nerfed then?
----
			
First, there is nothing hardcore about the attunement process. It's a time sink. That's it. Dynamic PvP is hardcore. 
 
As for the difficulty, of course it was nerfed. What on Earth did you think would happen? Look around you. Do you think it's been 100% successful? The game is fantastic and fun, yet people are leaving in huge numbers. Why? Nothing but repetitive nonsense to do at end game. Why? Because attunement is impossible for pugs. 
 
Every MMO before WS learned that to survive you cannot cater to the tiny minority of neck beards with nothing better to do than grind out some impossible achievement. You have to cater to the vast majority of players who play video games for fun. WS is no different. If it's going o compete against Warlords of Draenor, then it has to right the ship or the servers will be empty when WoD releases.	
----
			They nerfed the wrong part of the attunement.  They should've dropped the meaningless snatch and grab, the world boss grind and the rep grind.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
They nerfed the wrong part of the attunement.  They should've dropped the meaningless snatch and grab, the world boss grind and the rep grind.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
As for the difficulty, of course it was nerfed. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
From what i've seen on the forms, most people didn't have any complaints about the difficulty of the instances themselves. People were complaining about the Content gate. Carbine responded by adjusting the content gate without adjusting the difficulty of the content. Your precious raid is safe.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
That's a good point, definitely valid. But my problem is the fact that attunements have always been that kind of "Right of passage", you know?
You spent time, effort, long hours, studying, etc. to get that attunement done. But with it nerfed, it doesn't mean anything.
 
And yes, guilds will still hit the brick wall of GA's trash with a loud "THUD!" - but what happens when the QQ starts up about how hard GA is?
They QQ'd about the attunement being hard -> attunement was nerfed.
I think it's logical to follow the same pattern later on down the road.
----
			
They should never have put in attunements in the first place. There's already an attunement built right into the basics of the game, and that is gear and skill checks. 
Can you raid properly without being geared?
No.
Where do you get the gear?
Previous content. Dungeons, etc. 
How do you get the gear?
Having the skill to beat previous content. 
There was no need to put in an artificial wall. Players had to gear up and skill up before they could successfully raid as is. Putting in extra hurtles just because you were afraid there wasn't enough for level capped players to do just ticked players off and drove them away. Want this game to be hardcore, fine. But it should be hardcore where it matters, content, not busy work. 	
----
			The amount of "Casuals are bad, they ruin games" posts are absolutely ridiculous.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yeah I agree, people saying there are no correlation between being able to complete dungeons on silver and being able to do raids are absolutely clueless.
It's not like you have to do a speedrun to get silver, you just can't *cupcake*up a lot(neither can you in raids).
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The amount of "Casuals are bad, they ruin games" posts are absolutely ridiculous.
----
			
They have taken the easy way out with this change. Rather than make silver requirements reflect raid environments more accurately, they have simply toned down the attunement requirement to bronze. This is a pathetic response to the silver timer complaints and they would be better off leaving things as they are. I have made many posts about silver requirements needing tuning, but not once have I ever been in favour of lowering the requirement to bronze. I am extremely dissapointed with this announcement. 
 
It would be better for carbine to do nothing at all than to go through with this bronze requirement change.	
----
			
I think it would be better if you could make it so that you have to be there for the kill of every dungeon boss. I just worry that someone will join a dungeon at the last boss and not learn much from the boss mechanics and get bronze.
 
I was never a fan of the silver aspect because the last thing you do when raiding is rushing through the dungeon skipping everything. It doesn't really translate to the skills you need for raiding. Surviving and killing dungeon bosses does though.
 
As long as it doesn't nerf the dungeons themselves it doesn't make a huge difference in the terms of quality of new recruits.	
----
			
You guys, hardcorer, elitist jerks, whatever you should be called are pathetic.
Timer should go away from the attument quest. Attument quest is there to check you if you have what it take, if you know the mechanic enough for raid, and Bronze dungeon serve just fine in this matter.
 
Putting timer in meaning more stressful environment because it means a "100% no wipe/no mistake run" is required. With bronze, people will still need to understand boss mechanic, dodge red shit, and interupt the boss anyway. Difficulty of the boss still there but less difficult in term of attument quest.
 
Before the bug fix, people get around the timer by skipping trashes, terrain exploits etc which isnt intended. After a while, Carbine try to adjust the trash to avoid skipping, fix the terrain bug and added more time. Still it doesnt change the fact that timer is the most stressful thing ever and not neccesary relate to being raid ready at all. With timer, you still not allow to wipe more than 2 times. Meaning if you run with a first timer, basicly you dont have time to arrange interupt, you dont have time to brief the boss, you just have to expect all players know the fight and have to do it flawlessly. It doesnt have to be this way. It's the right decision to remove the damn timer out. Let people tackle the bosses at their own pace and still grant them access to raid if they succeed beating the dungeon. At least now there is a hope that the PUG run will able to attune on their own and easier for people to group up and finish the dungeon without the time limit.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
They have taken the easy way out with this change. Rather than make silver requirements reflect raid environments more accurately, they have simply toned down the attunement requirement to bronze. This is a pathetic response to the silver timer complaints and they would be better off leaving things as they are. I have made many posts about silver requirements needing tuning, but not once have I ever been in favour of lowering the requirement to bronze. I am extremely dissapointed with this announcement. 
 
It would be better for carbine to do nothing at all than to go through with this bronze requirement change.
----
			
First, I am not interested in raiding.  I don't have time for the time sink that raiding is in this game.  I have been a progressive raider in my past for many years, but life has changed for me, and I am not longer in that mind set.  That said, I did expect to enjoy some of the difficult content such as dungeons and adventures.  Let me say that the community is not as helpful as it has been primarly due to the requiements of attunement.  "gold or gtfo", "lf dps, don't suck".
 
We have a sinking population in this game.  I do not see a lot of helpful suggestions, or helpful hands.  I do see a lot of frustration.  Venting creates a lot of steam in the air, makes things murky.
 
I'm more concerned about why are people leaving.  What makes people go "psh, not worth the monthly anymore"?
 
Hard to find a guild that isn't raiding, hard to find a community of people wanting to help each other out, hard to see activity in zones other than daily ones.  In the light of all this, is raid attunement reduction of silver to bronze really that important? 
 
Healthy server population = healthy game
People able to have fun accomplishing simple goals = happy gamers resubbing.
 
I doubt the simple change of silver to bronze is that detrimental to raiding. 
Carbine may or may not change raid difficulties in the future, if they do so, it's based on the feedback of majority of players.  That's how business is run.  If they choose to run a business based off a population of a certain size, then they will do so.  If they need more $$, then they will make changes to do that.	
----
			
While I feel for the people that overcame an attunement early on, the change will be absolutely good for the game. Plus you'll have stories to tell new players in a year about how things used to be and how badass you were. 
 
The whole "attunement nerf = GA nerf down the line" and "if they can complete attunement they have to be prime raiders" has been beat to death, they're both illogical and poorly thought out arguments. 	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Again. WHY DOES IT MATTER? This is better for the overall raid-pool and the health of the game. You don't want people in your raids that can't get silver? Fine, don't invite them. Problem solved. 
----
			
Isn't bronze a bit too easy? You can earn it by bashing your head aganst the bosses till you clear it. It isn't even possible to fail most bronzes if you eventualy kill the last boss.
 
I would expect atleast a somewhat smooth run is needed to prove you mastered the dungeons. Any plans to add a death limit like 5 or 10 so you can have one or two wipes to clear it. Unlimited times and attemps at no risk of failue is a bit too much nerfing for attunement.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
They could have spent their time coming up with a silver requirement that better reflects raid environments. Instead they are just lowering the requirement in order to silence the people whining about how hard it is. This cave in from carbine is proof that the entire system was half baked and not fully thought out to begin with.
 
Why does it matter? This shows an inherent weakness in the design of the game and rather than come up with an intelligent solution they simply take the easy route and take the requirements down a notch. EVERYTHING about attunement after this change is puggable! Adventures, dungeons and world bosses will ALL be EASILY puggable after this change. This begs the question. Why have an attunement process to begin with if you're going to make it easily puggable?
 
Ask yourself what attunement proves if this change comes to pass. Attunement will no longer be reflective of any amount of skill at all! It will be little more than a time sync that requires you to queue for adventues, dungeons and then to camp world bosses for a week or two. On top of all of this, what about the people who have already put in the effort of going through attunement before the change? How is one to feel about the dumbing down of requirements after they have put the hours of effort in? I'm not even totally done attunement myself, and I can tell you that I would not be too pleased with this.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
They could have spent their time coming up with a silver requirement that better reflects raid environments. Instead they are just lowering the requirement in order to silence the people whining about how hard it is. This cave in from carbine is proof that the entire system was half baked and not fully thought out to begin with.
 
Why does it matter? This shows an inherent weakness in the design of the game and rather than come up with an intelligent solution they simply take the easy route and take the requirements down a notch. EVERYTHING about attunement after this change is puggable! Adventures, dungeons and world bosses will ALL be EASILY puggable after this change. This begs the question. Why have an attunement process to begin with if you're going to make it easily puggable?
 
Ask yourself what attunement proves if this change comes to pass. Attunement will no longer be reflective of any amount of skill at all! It will be little more than a time sync that requires you to queue for adventues, dungeons and then to camp world bosses for a week or two. On top of all of this, what about the people who have already put in the effort of going through attunement before the change? How is one to feel about the dumbing down of requirements after they have put the hours of effort in? I'm not even totally done attunement myself, and I can tell you that I would not be too pleased with this.
----
			
To be honest, I am feeling positive towards the way that they listen, process and then adjust.. it shows great promise when done accurately.
 
I do believe that players who can master a higher level of difficulty should be rewarded (and handsomely at that) but there is a baseline in all games that should somehow be easily accessible for everyone to enjoy and experience. The trick is getting the balance just right, but I am surprisingly optimistic.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
To be honest, I am feeling positive towards the way that they listen, process and then adjust.. it shows great promise when done accurately.
 
I do believe that players who can master a higher level of difficulty should be rewarded (and handsomely at that) but there is a baseline in all games that should somehow be easily accessible for everyone to enjoy and experience. The trick is getting the balance just right, but I am surprisingly optimistic.
----
			The attunement process may as well be removed with this change. The only challenging portion was the dungeons	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The attunement process may as well be removed with this change. The only challenging portion was the dungeons
----
			
If you think GA is a difficult raid you missed out on the hard ones in WoW.
 
Zero difficult bosses other than Ohmna; and I only say its difficult based on heresay, I have yet to pull her. It's unlikely that it is difficult either.  Sure, learning how to deal with a new style of play increases difficulty... but all the mechanics are trivial.  The only reason guilds wipe is they have trouble fielding enough raiders because a lot of good raiders are xferring to raid with the top guilds that need 40 and will carry them through GA so every night is relearning with newly attuned people.  Turnover in small 2-day raid guilds is 60-70% even if experiencing great success.
 
But I digress. I'm also very disappointed in the attunement changes.  Keep it silver, but make the genesis key progress steps go off of account wide achievements.	
----
			The attunement quest is not there to lock me out of content. Its there to make me ready for what is to come. Its there to prepare me for all the hazards im going to get sprayed with when i step inside the raid. This is what i think. Dumbing down the whole chain because some people are antisocial and cannot for the love of protostar find a guild to hang in shouldn't be my problem. Okay im already done with the attunement part of doing silver dungeons, and im glad i did it. I feel i have now learned what to expect from the raids. If i were given the chance to cheese the attunement and wipe my way through it without getting better at playing the game i would probably just quit the game all together. Im baffled that the devs feel that catering to the people that are complaining they cannot pug the attunement quest is a good idea, if not its a very slippery slope. 	
----
			Maybe with more players raiding 40 man raids will be more popular. 	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The attunement quest is not there to lock me out of content. Its there to make me ready for what is to come. Its there to prepare me for all the hazards im going to get sprayed with when i step inside the raid. This is what i think. Dumbing down the whole chain because some people are antisocial and cannot for the love of protostar find a guild to hang in shouldn't be my problem. Okay im already done with the attunement part of doing silver dungeons, and im glad i did it. I feel i have now learned what to expect from the raids. If i were given the chance to cheese the attunement and wipe my way through it without getting better at playing the game i would probably just quit the game all together. Im baffled that the devs feel that catering to the people that are complaining they cannot pug the attunement quest is a good idea, if not its a very slippery slope. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The main argument was that people didn't have the time to complete this and they shouldn't be forced to. It doesn't make them less of a player
----