108586-why-im-not-quitting-wildstar

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It needs to be said for all of the developers who work day in and day out to improve this game:Some of us appreciate what you're trying to accomplish.
I, for one, have been playing MMORPGs since EQ1.  I've always lamented the "everybody wins" mentality that has infected newer MMORPGs and welcome the attunment and barriers to entry of the end-game.  I welcome them along with the Mechari, my new robot overlords.  I don't get what the big deal is/was causing all the griefing.
I felt like there weren't enough people on the server I had chosen.  So I moved servers.  Problem solved.
I felt like there wasn't going to be enough end-game content to satisfy me.  I talked to some old friends from WoW from my server (Deathwing-US), who reformed their old cata-era guild here (Enigma).  They assure me that the end-game is challenging and rewarding once you get enough people.  Problem solved.
I was tired of LFR and how it "broke" raiding progression in WoW.  Reducing the need for teamwork completely removed any incentive to join a guild, slave as a trial for no loot, and show up every week like it was your job.  So people stopped.  Without the guild aspect -- it just isn't the same.
I was a little worried about the "grind" -- but then I remembered all the weeks -- litterally -- I spent in Guk camping Raster for my monk epic 1.0 in EQ1 and realized no matter how grindy wildstar is, it can't be THAT bad.
I personally haven't had the "optimization" issues others have complained about.  i5 3750 @ 4.0ghz and ATI 280X here.  Can't complain so far.  People with AMD CPUs need to stop complaining and realize that their CPU is roughly equivalent to a 6-year-old Intel CPU when it comes to single-threaded applications.  Games are single-threaded (mostly).  Time to get a real gaming rig and buy Intel.  If you don't have a lot of cash get a Celeron.  For games a fast dual-core is much better than anything AMD has.
I'm slightly concerned that there won't be enough cash to pay to develop new content (raids and expansion packs).  I'm not entirely over this but I figure I'm going to give it until WoD launches and see how it shakes out.  I'm cool with playing a niche game as long as the development dollars are focused on keeping raids coming at a reasonable rate.
Finally, I really enjoy the gameplay.  It's challenging, the world is beautiful, combat is varied and fun, lore is great -- It's really a breath of fresh air.
So I'm going to keep on playing.
 
Thanks for the great game, Carbine!	
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approved by protostar.
 
accept this emotionally neutral salutations.	
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While I'm happy for you that you're enjoying the game, and seemingly will continue to enjoy it:
 
Essentially you described a bunch of problems with the game and said "Well, I'm sucking it up- you should to." Think of Wildstar like a bad waitress. You find her cute so when she spills your drink, you get another one and don't complain. She brings you the wrong side dish? You just smile and tell her everything is great when she comes by to ask, you like mashed potatoes anyway. Wanted that steak medium-rare? Laugh it off when it shows up burnt to a crisp. 
 
Now at Table #2, that waitress messes up and her customers complain. They are going to pay for their meal, so they want to let the waitress know what she needs to do to fix it. Mashed potatoes? I asked for the extremely healthy Mac and Cheese, so bring that if you would. Thanks! Would you mind bringing me a steak that isn't absolutely ruined? Excellent. Thank you for your help, Ms. Woefully Unprepared but Well-Intentioned Waitress!
 
Many of us expect to be able to enjoy products we pay for with reasonable (and occasionally, unreasonable) expectations. For example.
 
1. You decided to reroll or pay to transfer your character to a more populated server. You ate the cost of your time or the $20 for the transfer. It is however, not reasonable, to deride players who chose to:
 
2. Seek redress from Carbine to not have to pay for a transfer or reroll, because in reality its Carbine's fault that we have a bajillion servers and no one on all but two of them.
 
Likewise:
 
1. You decided that grind would concern you, but since you were #Hardcore in EQ 1, you can tolerate any amount of grind and soldier on. While that's great...
 
2. Many of us feel that boring content is boring, and if what a company that claims to want to "break the mold" of WoW and other MMOs decides that dailies are apparently the way to keep us engaged, good luck. 
 
 Truthfully, your fortitude and pedigree for doing difficult content is impressive and I for one could not play EQ 1. That does not mean that people who have legitimate gripes do not have legitimate gripes, and that everyone should magically become as accommodating as you because....reasons?
 
Like what you've essentially said is: Suck it up, so many things about this game blow but if I can ignore them and keep on keepin' on, so can you! (Oh did I mention you have to continuously pay for this game? Suck it up, "cupcake").	
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Like what you've essentially said is: Suck it up, so many things about this game blow but if I can ignore them and keep on keepin' on, so can you! (Oh did I mention you have to continuously pay for this game? Suck it up, "cupcake").
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There is no one on this forum who complains as much as me but I love this game.Once the things that are most important to me are implemented (PVP and rune fixes) ill be in heaven
 
moderator edit: language 
			
				
	Edited August 15, 2014 by Chillia	
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I think you misread the post. OP is saying why he is not quitting, not telling the forum readers that is what everyone else should be doing. (except for the PC hardware part)
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Uh...nope. I can read just fine. See the following excerpts in bold, which indicate that the author is directly writing this post as a response to criticism he sees elsewhere on the forums: 
 
1. His first line indicates he knows that the status quo is people complaining about issues to Carbine
2. His laundry list of "issues" just happen to be all of the major complaints with the game found on the forums, and how he overcomes them through sheer EQ 1 #Hardcore status.
3. He actually tells AMD users to buy Intel and STFU.
 
Did I stutter? 
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I was tired of LFR and how it "broke" raiding progression in WoW.  Reducing the need for teamwork completely removed any incentive to join a guild, slave as a trial for no loot, and show up every week like it was your job.  So people stopped.  Without the guild aspect -- it just isn't the same.
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 when the rewards at the end of this indentured servitude are triple-RNG'd to mostly uselessness. The MMO market has gotten older and has real jobs now.
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This really depends on what one personally views as the 'rewards' of an MMO. I (and many others) regard enjoyment and fun as the rewards; others (which also are many) regard obtaining collections of pixels with higher numbers as the 'rewards'. Both views are equally valid, but depending on which you hold will make any number of games either fantastic or horrible. 
 
YMMV
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When I do quit playing... I will not make a manifesto of crying and why I hate the game.
 
I simply leave quietly, like I did FFXI, FFXIV, GW2, and Rift.
Walking out delivers me all the benefits without the attention-whoring.	
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This sounds, I'm not going to mince words here, horrible. I realize it means we probably have nothing to discuss about Wildstar's endgame, since we apparently value things on the opposite ends of the spectrum, I just wanted to sort of chime in that there probably aren't a lot of people motivated to mortgage their limited time and entertainment budget when other options exist, particularly when the rewards at the end of this indentured servitude are triple-RNG'd to mostly uselessness. The MMO market has gotten older and has real jobs now.
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I was tired of LFR and how it "broke" raiding progression in WoW.  Reducing the need for teamwork completely removed any incentive to join a guild, slave as a trial for no loot, and show up every week like it was your job.  So people stopped.  Without the guild aspect -- it just isn't the same.
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You are in the minority on this.  LFR was one of the best things WoW did.  I'm tired of hearing it's easy.  It's meant to be easy.  The gear you got from it was crap compared to the other difficulties.  If you want a challenging experience in WoW, join a raiding guild that kills heroic content. 
 
LFR was deisgned to give people a chance to see content, that they would normally never see. 
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It needs to be said for all of the developers who work day in and day out to improve this game:
 
Some of us appreciate what you're trying to accomplish.
I, for one, have been playing MMORPGs since EQ1.  I've always lamented the "everybody wins" mentality that has infected newer MMORPGs and welcome the attunment and barriers to entry of the end-game.  I welcome them along with the Mechari, my new robot overlords.  I don't get what the big deal is/was causing all the griefing.
I felt like there weren't enough people on the server I had chosen.  So I moved servers.  Problem solved.
I felt like there wasn't going to be enough end-game content to satisfy me.  I talked to some old friends from WoW from my server (Deathwing-US), who reformed their old cata-era guild here (Enigma).  They assure me that the end-game is challenging and rewarding once you get enough people.  Problem solved.
I was tired of LFR and how it "broke" raiding progression in WoW.  Reducing the need for teamwork completely removed any incentive to join a guild, slave as a trial for no loot, and show up every week like it was your job.  So people stopped.  Without the guild aspect -- it just isn't the same.
I was a little worried about the "grind" -- but then I remembered all the weeks -- litterally -- I spent in Guk camping Raster for my monk epic 1.0 in EQ1 and realized no matter how grindy wildstar is, it can't be THAT bad.
I personally haven't had the "optimization" issues others have complained about.  i5 3750 @ 4.0ghz and ATI 280X here.  Can't complain so far.  People with AMD CPUs need to stop complaining and realize that their CPU is roughly equivalent to a 6-year-old Intel CPU when it comes to single-threaded applications.  Games are single-threaded (mostly).  Time to get a real gaming rig and buy Intel.  If you don't have a lot of cash get a Celeron.  For games a fast dual-core is much better than anything AMD has.
I'm slightly concerned that there won't be enough cash to pay to develop new content (raids and expansion packs).  I'm not entirely over this but I figure I'm going to give it until WoD launches and see how it shakes out.  I'm cool with playing a niche game as long as the development dollars are focused on keeping raids coming at a reasonable rate.
Finally, I really enjoy the gameplay.  It's challenging, the world is beautiful, combat is varied and fun, lore is great -- It's really a breath of fresh air.
So I'm going to keep on playing.
 
Thanks for the great game, Carbine!
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Oh Lord. This. This. This. 1000 times this.
 
I just want to see the content. I don't give two craps about epic lewts or hardcore goodies. I just want to see the cool animations.
 
Of course, I've already helped down every Boss in the game. All of them. Yep. In the span of like ... twenty minutes.
 
I am uber. Who wants to touch me?
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The saddest part of it all is that Wildstar is exactly the game everyone complained that they wanted.  They wanted difficult content, a return to bigger and more complex raids, they said they hated playing whack-a-mole with procs and wanted an active system that made them pay attention.  Everyone wanted housing that was big, costumes that were customizeable, and they wanted the bigness back in PVP.
 
Well, we got what we asked for.  The question is, how many people were just talking out of their asses and how many are just dissatisfied with the details.  We got bigger and more complex raids.  We got active combat.  We got difficulty.  What we got is a game that requires your concentration, and it's a bit dense for some people to manage.  Raiding in this game is definitely making people put their money where their mouths are, and even veteran dungeons are blisteringly difficult for your average gamer.
 
I love it.  I asked for this kind of game, and I meant that I wanted this kind of game.  I got the game I wanted, and I've got no plans to go somewhere else.
 
AFter that, it's just sorting out details.  Dyeing gear for costumes is too expensive, IMO, housing could use some more work with plugs, and I think they may need to hopefully get people into Warplots once they get more 50s with stones up there.  But this game is what I've been asking someone to make for years, and I couldn't be happier I got it.
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You are in the minority on this.  LFR was one of the best things WoW did.  I'm tired of hearing it's easy.  It's meant to be easy.  The gear you got from it was crap compared to the other difficulties.  If you want a challenging experience in WoW, join a raiding guild that kills heroic content. 
 
LFR was deisgned to give people a chance to see content, that they would normally never see. 
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I'm with you.  I'm just hoping they keep enough player cash coming in to be able to continue development.  This publisher has a habit of pulling the plug prematurely.  As long as they realize the hardcore raiders are going to be their bread-and-butter and foucs their limited resources there -- I'll be around to hand them plies of cash.
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Many of us expect to be able to enjoy products we pay for with reasonable (and occasionally, unreasonable) expectations.
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The problem is, without the incentive of seeing the content, most LFR players didn't bother to move on to serious raiding.  They got to believe that they were "raiders."  I mean, it's only a few ilvls difference on the gear.  Same looks, same set bonus.  I'm a ***REAL*** raider, bro, look at my 4-piece tier LFR gear to prove it.
 
The real raiding guilds starved for players -- with the low end players not even trying and the higher end players being poached by the hard-mode guilds.  That's why wow is nerfing LFR -- no more weapons or trinkets, and the armor drops have no set bonuses and different graphics.
 
If you want to "see" the content, fine, but you're not getting loot anymore from LFR and you won't be fooling anyone, either.
 
Good riddance.
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And if you ask a hundred people what those expectations are, you get a hundred different answers. How can anyone hope to please everyone? So to enjoy the game, you need to learn to let go and allow yourself to have some childish fun. It doesn't matter if you are 10 or 60. Games are supposed to be fun, right? I rode my goat in LotRO all the way from Thorin's Hall north in Ered Luin to Elron's house in Rivendell backwards. In reverse. It took a long time, and a troll-patrol in Trollshaws almost spotted me. That would have been a quick end to that journey. :P But I did it, and now I can look back at those memories with a big smile. I spent several gold buying ingredients, just so I could make blackberry pies. No reason why, but pies taste good, and I was a hobbit. What more reason do you need? :P
 
The point is Wildstar is a heck of a lot of fun, if you allow yourself to enjoy it. Don't just rush to endgame and hope it will be fun. WoW is over a decade old and have multiple expansions, and even that game severaly lacks in endgame content. What chances does a game less than two months old have? Endgame should be something you enjoy at the end of the game. It should never, ever be the goal of the game. The goal of the game should be enjoying the game itself.
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Its a nice sentiment, and I'll give you that often MMO players rush for endgame content and are typically disappointed by what they find when a game launches. But at this point we've got enough industry information/know-how/experience to predict that:
 
A. MMO players (largely) show a desire to do things "as quickly and efficiently" as possible. So give them a level cap, people spend a ton of effort trying to blow through it as quickly as possible. If you check out a lot of the Youtube videos/guides on websites surrounding game launches, its often things like "how to level fast!". Many games have adapted to this trend by creating alternate advancement. We kind of have it with Elder Gems (to get AMPs/Ability Points) but its just poorly implemented (i.e. with a weekly cap).
 
B. MMO players (largely) will complain about your game if there is a lack of meaningful endgame content, meaningful usually in the MMO community means stuff that is: "Potentially fun, but aids in my progression above all". Wildstar has dungeons, adventures, etc. etc. but very little of it (beyond passing you through attunement) does anything for your progression. RNG ontop of RNG and the drop loot nerf has contributed to this.
 
C. MMO players (largely) hate a lack of content, but will whine EVEN MOAR if you release a ton of stuff that is bug-addled. Another check mark for Wildstar on the list of things not to do.
 
Yes this game is very new in its life cycle and there is a TON to enjoy. My specific contention here is that we shouldn't just thank Carbine for f'ing some things up because we can "deal" with it. They need to hear loudly and often that these things are problems so that they will understand there is a link between the money they are taking in and quality of game. Its just being a customer of an on-going product/service. If you want something you're invested in to get better, you've gotta speak up. 
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At the same time, it's important to say what you like about a system.  Loudly.  As people who've ignored the discussion and come to rage against a fix they didn't like have found out, everything is up for debate and change unless you make it well known that it's not to be touched because you like it the way it is.
 
Ask all those new people who hated the attunement change that just showed up on general discussion post-Nexus Report or the PVPers who hated the changes to healers.
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I absolutely will not disagree with you that Carbine needs to hear positive feedback about many of the EXCELLENT things that this game does. 100%. No question. 
 
The reason I posted here specifically is because the OP is saying "Things suck about your game, Carbine - but I don't really need you to fix them because I can fight through the pain!". No, I don't want developers getting complacent with a bad feature when they can fix it. I don't want to pay them money to suck it up. 
 
Listen I tolerate bad service in life all the time. I am one of those customers who generally doesn't have the will, desire, energy, motivation, pride, self-respect, alpha-maleness, etc. to stand up for myself where my money is concerned and it is something I actively do not like about myself. On the internet I can express myself without feeling awkward about giving feedback, and I want a product that I am sinking money into -every month- to meet generally accepted quality expectations that we were promised, that a AAA budged warrants, and that NCSoft should consider it their business to provide as an industry leader in this space. Carbine is a new developer, but they have experienced overlords. 
 
This game:
 
A. Does many things right
B. Is trying out some things that I would consider a business "risk" and would not harp on a company for. I get it, you wanted to try some new stuff and I welcome that. 
C. Is also doing some things that are undeniably, unquestionably, wrong. Things that we know from the industry will not work. Things that need to go through QA and bug testing. The advertising, hype, Devspeaks, press releases, etc. led many of us to believe that key aspects of this game were "feature-complete" that are just not. Additionally, this game was touted to be created by industry veterans with an extremely long development cycle befitting a complete release, and a massive AAA budget. 
 
Point C is where the kid gloves have to come off. There are several key components of this game that are an absolute mess, incomplete, or just flat out do not work.The excuse that Carbine is a new studio and this is a new game in regards to many of these issues is insufficient, mainly because the devs have explicitly stated that they have learned lessons from the industry, have worked in it, studied it, and have spent by their own admission an inordinate amount of time working on this game. 
 
So yeah, when you advertise Shiphand missions to me and it is actually a major selling point for a "filthy casual" and then I log in only to find that they are completely non-existent at 50, I scratch my head and yell about it. 
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The reason I posted here specifically is because the OP is saying "Things suck about your game, Carbine - but I don't really need you to fix them because I can fight through the pain!". No, I don't want developers getting complacent with a bad feature when they can fix it. I don't want to pay them money to suck it up.
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I don't think you understood what I was trying to say at all.
 
I'm saying I like the things most other people are complaining about.  Grinding my Monk Epic in EQ was one of my proudest moments.  It took months and I was one of only a handful of people on my server who had it (Bristlebane).  I was special.  I did something that I could walk around and be proud of.  Other people would /tell me and ask to group with me because they could see I was a competent and dedicated player.  (among my other accomplishments: grinding rep to get my human monk into the Iksar city Cabilis so I could do the Iksar monk racial quests.  You have no idea how hard that is, ROFL, but needless to say I had to kill like 2,000 mobs to even get high enough rep to not be kill on sight so I could hand in the thousands of stacks of bone chips needed for honored).
 
So don't think I'm saying "this isn't as bad as everquest so I'll keep playing"  -- I'm saying "this reminds me of why I loved EQ and WoW (pre-WotLK), but isn't quite as much of a grind fest, and has interesting and novel mechanics and a compelling story and art style, with lots of humor and the difficulty cranked up to 11."
 
I think the casuals should just leave.  This game obviously wasn't intended for you.  The rest of us will consolidate down to a few servers and have a go of it.
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See, but I don't think playtime is any reason people shouldn't play.  I don't put in five hours a day every day; I just like hard content.  The "casuals" have just as much, if not more, of a place in Wildstar.
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I'm not saying I don't welcome them -- just stop spamming the forums asking for welfare epics.  It's getting old.
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You are in the minority on this.  LFR was one of the best things WoW did.  I'm tired of hearing it's easy.  It's meant to be easy.  The gear you got from it was crap compared to the other difficulties.  If you want a challenging experience in WoW, join a raiding guild that kills heroic content. 
 
LFR was deisgned to give people a chance to see content, that they would normally never see. 
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I think it is pretty good that someone (Carbine) finally try to bring something new which is NOT like all the 100 other MMO´s actually.
Maybe it suffer at some Corners actually and maybe it is also not that Hardcore for some Players then for others.
But definately more challenging as other average MMO´s today.
That Wildstar actually will not be the Game with the highest Player/Subscription Count is ofc no Surprise.
Even if some ppl say so, it is not that Casual friendly...	
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I think the casuals should just leave.  This game obviously wasn't intended for you.  The rest of us will consolidate down to a few servers and have a go of it.
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I think it is pretty good that someone (Carbine) finally try to bring something new which is NOT like all the 100 other MMO´s actually.
Maybe it suffer at some Corners actually and maybe it is also not that Hardcore for some Players then for others.
But definately more challenging as other average MMO´s today.
That Wildstar actually will not be the Game with the highest Player/Subscription Count is ofc no Surprise.
Even if some ppl say so, it is not that Casual friendly...
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I think the problem with point C is that the game is still so new.  My most cogent criticism is that what's happening is a lack of constructive feedback going in both directions.  I know a half dozen reasons why veteran shiphand missions aren't in the game that make sense, but Carbine doesn't come out and often say what the holdup is or give us an ETA.  They used to.  However, they've been browbeaten so often, ironically sometimes by giving us exactly what we asked for, that they don't feel we, as players can handle the information.
 
Maybe we can't; I don't know.  I'd like to think not, but the forums aren't exactly a nice place for them to explain things, considering how we tend to handle the information we're given.
 
In a perfect world, we would all know exactly why veteran shiphand missions aren't in the game yet, be able to offer some constructive feedback on what, if any, issues we might have as a playerbase on their solutions, and they could give us a possible ETA, whether it be a week or two months, which we would accept as necessary.  As it stands, they've been water on oil with that feedback.  When they deign to give us information, a large and vocal proportion of us handle it like children throwing a tantrum.
 
Everything in this game that I've ever heard them reveal to us has rational, reasonable, understandable issues which I've given my best feedback on as a gamer interested in the long term health of the game.  Unfortunately, I've become somewhat renowned here for this, since it's not necessarily a very common stance to have.
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Ahem.
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I read your posts frequently and appreciate your attitude. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a positive person and seeing good things in a game, as well as trying to give honest feedback. There are some users, however, who pretend there's like...nothing wrong with the game. Would name a few, but this thread would get locked down pretty quick. +1 to Vic=Awesome, essentially.
 
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Yeah, I'm definitely not the guy that thinks there's nothing wrong.  There will never be nothing wrong with the game, because nothing is ever perfect.
 
I think the most important part of criticism is to be extremely pointed but also to point out what you love.  Not to balance the criticism, but so Carbine knows what not to fix.
 
Overall timers, those were annoying for guilds attuning new members to fill out their rosters and hit Genetic Archives.  But you have to hammer in that the DIFFICULTY IS GREAT AND IS NOT TO BE TOUCHED!
 
Unfortunately, a lot of the conversation on that became "attunement sucks and should be removed" or "the game's perfect and you need to deal with it".  There was an issue, it's getting fixed (the easy fix, not, IMO, the best one), but it must be absolutely demonstrated that if you wipe in the raids, the raids should not be nerfed.  And that could have been done a little more maturely than we, on the whole, handled it.
 
I suppose what bothers me most is that I feel like there is a portion of us that is essentially keeping the devs and us from having a decent conversation about the game and its issues.
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			For the purposes of clarification, let me state that I define "casual" as someone who is interested in content that doesn't require practice or intense concentration (e.g. LFR type encounters that can be done on "autopilot").  I don't equate time available to level of dedication.  E.G. you might only play a few hours a week but can still be hard-core; the content you're interested in is "difficult."	
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For the purposes of clarification, let me state that I define "casual" as someone who is interested in content that doesn't require practice or intense concentration (e.g. LFR type encounters that can be done on "autopilot").  I don't equate time available to level of dedication.  E.G. you might only play a few hours a week but can still be hard-core; the content you're interested in is "difficult."
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I like this. I generally try to be helpful and constructive (i.e. the walls of text explaining my rationale) but occasionally I let the attitudes of posts I'm responding to irritate me. Will try to do better henceforth :)
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approved by protostar.
 
accept this emotionally neutral salutations.
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I wouldn't count you among them, really.  I just think we'd already have heard about population issues, active and not, all the details by now if people weren't so obsessed with using its epitaph as a justification for whatever their pet issue is.  I think Carbine's worried that nobody would be okay with any news they give on that.  Given their sales numbers were pretty good for what I expected, and they still caught "game is dying!" hyperbole there, would Carbine benefit from giving us any information at all?
 
All I've heard on that front is that there are too many active accounts to merge the servers, but why can't they tell us what "low" means on their server count?  Why can't they have a discussion with us about whether reducing sharding or server transfers are better?  Why can't we talk about active players and faction counts?
 
I get the feeling it's because Carbine, just like every other MMORPG developer these days, figures they'll always be judged by the sub numbers of WoW at its peak.  Even WoW will never be seen as "healthy" again because it isn't WoW at its peak, regardless of how much money EVE makes with just 500k subs and how little time Wildstar's been out.  I feel like they don't trust us with that information anymore, and that's sad.  I feel like I'd really like to have more information, but even I know they'd catch Hell for anything they said.
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Okay, helps to know what you mean specifically. So I guess my question is:
 
If an LFR system were to appear with an easy mode (read: "autopilot") where you got crappier but still serviceable drops, how would you be negatively impacted if the Hard Mode version of the raid continued to exist and gave you even better loot?
 
If the mechanics exist in Wildstar to make VERY CHALLENGING content (and they do, see telegraphs, interrupts, active combat, etc.) why does it matter if the team makes sure casuals also have stuff to do? I don't want your hardcore content dumbed down, modified, changed, amended, etc. but I do want us all to have our cake and eat it too.
 
Unless the cake is a lie. But its not. There can be cake. #Cake.
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Okay, helps to know what you mean specifically. So I guess my question is:
 
If an LFR system were to appear with an easy mode (read: "autopilot") where you got crappier but still serviceable drops, how would you be negatively impacted if the Hard Mode version of the raid continued to exist and gave you even better loot?
 
If the mechanics exist in Wildstar to make VERY CHALLENGING content (and they do, see telegraphs, interrupts, active combat, etc.) why does it matter if the team makes sure casuals also have stuff to do? I don't want your hardcore content dumbed down, modified, changed, amended, etc. but I do want us all to have our cake and eat it too.
 
Unless the cake is a lie. But its not. There can be cake. #Cake.
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I'm obviously biasaed, but IMO the very existance of an LFR mode removes a large subset of players who want to see the content, but not invest the time, from the pool of recruits available to raiding guilds.
 
You might not be interested in being part of the "raid core" of a guild -- but that doesn't need we don't need your ample warm body to fill in for us to make a whole raid group.  In a world-first oriented guild like Enigma, there isn't a place for you.  They're going to get progression reguardless of what the rest of us do.  We can't commit to their timeframe so we are of no use to them.
 
For the REST of the guilds, who want to progress but aren't insane about it -- the "typical" LFR player is intregral to our success.  Your desire to see the content compells you to join the guild and learn the fights for the one night a month your schedule allows you to raid -- and thus see the content.  We need those players in order to field an entire 40 (or honestly even 20) man raid team.  Your core of dedicateds make up 2/3rds of the raid.  The warm bodies fill in the rest.  LFR decreses the available warm bodies.  Why "work" to see a few bosses on your only night of raiding for the month when you can see the ENTIRE raid in one night with no preperation or social obligation?  That's why raiding died in MoP -- the hardcore guilds were fine but the "average" semi-hardcore guild couldn't find the people needed to raid.  Our carrot to get enough casuals to show up is supplanted by the fact that the developer offers you a carrot cake in the form of LFR.
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This again is not to be snide but I do exactly this in FF14. I raid with my FC (guild), but also hop into the Raid Finder when folks aren't available. I'm not exceptional in this regard, at all. The only reason I'm bringing it up is because the balance seems to be possible. Additionally, I main tank those raids and don't "autopilot" even in the Raid Finder, I still have to know the mechanics and most bosses in the FF14 raids come with a one shot mechanic everyone has to be largely on board for. I've seen plenty of quick but effective teaching moments and good community. Crystal Tower, for example, is a 24 man raid where I've been grouped with loads of new people. First boss has a major one shot mechanic where everyone must participate or the entire raid wipes. Have yet to leave without completing said boss, mainly because someone takes the 15 seconds required to explain the mechanic and we get it done.
 
Now try to foster a good, helpful, in-game community in Wildstar while doing a dungeon with a PUG and see what happens. Why? Partly because this game has fostered and allowed to fester a segregation of the populace. It actively encourages people to declare themselves "hardcore" or "casual" and entrench themselves in a like-minded camp. How much of that is Carbine? Very little, I think. Inventing the term "cupcake" and using it as a byword for "scrub" doesn't really help, but I think this mostly lies with the players.
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This is very interesting to me. I know of another game that had vets versus newbs but community still came together to run raids and teach... All it takes are a few people interested in their server community and teaching.
 
I don't like the divide between pugs and guilds. I never liked it. I find community is healthier when good players don't just stick with their guilds. As my elitist raid leader said when I caught him mentoring a newb... If we don't teach the up and comers, we are going to be out of Raiders. Cause eventually Raiders burn out, need breaks, etc and if newbs stay newbs and aren't given chances, we just won't have who to run with.
(I got recruited by him as a pug in a fully pug raid group).
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			Open question time!Why does so many people seem to believe that because they bought a game / subs they are entitled to be spoonfed all (or even most) content without putting in the effort required?	
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Open question time!
 
Why does so many people seem to believe that because they bought a game / subs they are entitled to be spoonfed all (or even most) content without putting in the effort required?
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Why does so many people seem to believe that because they bought a game / subs they are entitled to be spoonfed all (or even most) content without putting in the effort required?
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Open question time!
 
Why does so many people seem to believe that because they bought a game / subs they are entitled to be spoonfed all (or even most) content without putting in the effort required?
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I don't know. Why do so many other people seem to believe that opening accessibility equates with entitlement? Why do so many other people use effort to excuse mindless grinding? Why would a Wildstar drinking game be dangerous to the players' health if I put in 'sip for references to Warcraft, Everquest, and back-in-my-day rambling'?
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I don't know. Why do so many other people seem to believe that opening accessibility equates with entitlement? Why do so many other people use effort to excuse mindless grinding? Why would a Wildstar drinking game be dangerous to the players' health if I put in 'sip for references to Warcraft, Everquest, and back-in-my-day rambling'?
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Just poking my head into this topic to say the OP hasn't a damned clue what he is talking about in regards to AMD CPUs and application threading. 
 
Carry on.	
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That idea really does kind of sicken me, and it's not just in games, it's everywhere.  People can't play a game and take twice as long to clear a raid as a more serious raider anymore, and our culture has been complicit in this.
 
I have a lot of respect for Carbine saying, "No, you all can do this, even if it takes you longer."  And it's sad we line up across lines of an imaginary hardcore/casual divide to say who can and cannot clear this content.
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I love the whole casuals should leave in this topic and in the forums over all I just find it *cupcake*ing funny. I get the point why people are saying it cause most of the casual folks are like why I no get stuff this way or that way ... or OMG I WILL NEVER HAS THE TIME TO GET SHIT DONE SDGSDPSFJLSDJFSLJFJLSDFJL WHY GAME SO HARDCORE.
 
But say that all should leave is kinda stupid, I'm sorry
 
Where I'm not casual nor hardcore (I'm that nice grey area) I see my self as more of a causal in this game at the current point of standing. Why? I put my time in and work my ass off to help my guild with vets, adventures and whatever other content they need. I'm not the best choice when it comes to gear or skill, but I put my time in there, bust my ass to help my guild, snatch gear pieces to make healing a bit easier and I work my ass off learning the bosses, where to stand, etc (I however have lots of trouble with the last boss in vet ST ... I FAIL AT MAKING PROPER CIRCLES) And in that ... Thats the hardcore side of me.
 
Now for the casual part of me, when the guild doesn't need me I'm just floating around on my esper alt getting him to fifty I'm not rushing like I did with my medic.. Hell I take time to stand around and smell the pretty plants in each zone. I've been taking a lot more pictures of things than I did with my medic, I'm just chilling and enjoying myself with the time I have to play.
 
If you want even more casual I got my key on my medic, but I made it clear to my guild I'm not going to do attument on him. Sure they may go raiding without me and I'm fine with it, I'm not in a place where I want to do anything with my medic besides help to get the other folks attuned. Cause until I can master ST I see myself not worth a raid spot if I can't get the final boss in ST right. 
 
So ya 90% of my time spent in wildstar as it is is casual and 10% is hardcore and I'm fine with that and yes that pretty much makes me a casual as it stands .. And you know what I'm not *cupcake*ing leave this game cause you see all casuals as derp a herps.	
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And we're back to 'herp derp kids these days herp derp'. Let me repeat what Maytree said because it can't be repeated enough around here:
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The problem isn't with content being painfully unrewarding and attunement a slog nobody ever wants to look at again, it's that we don't understand what's fun. If they never announced or provided achievements for server firsts, people would still work just as hard for them; it's the effort, not the prize.
 
You put out a lot of good thoughts, Vic, but I'm just not sure about this one.	
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It needs to be said for all of the developers who work day in and day out to improve this game:
 
Some of us appreciate what you're trying to accomplish.
I, for one, have been playing MMORPGs since EQ1.  I've always lamented the "everybody wins" mentality that has infected newer MMORPGs and welcome the attunment and barriers to entry of the end-game.  I welcome them along with the Mechari, my new robot overlords.  I don't get what the big deal is/was causing all the griefing.
I felt like there weren't enough people on the server I had chosen.  So I moved servers.  Problem solved.
I felt like there wasn't going to be enough end-game content to satisfy me.  I talked to some old friends from WoW from my server (Deathwing-US), who reformed their old cata-era guild here (Enigma).  They assure me that the end-game is challenging and rewarding once you get enough people.  Problem solved.
I was tired of LFR and how it "broke" raiding progression in WoW.  Reducing the need for teamwork completely removed any incentive to join a guild, slave as a trial for no loot, and show up every week like it was your job.  So people stopped.  Without the guild aspect -- it just isn't the same.
I was a little worried about the "grind" -- but then I remembered all the weeks -- litterally -- I spent in Guk camping Raster for my monk epic 1.0 in EQ1 and realized no matter how grindy wildstar is, it can't be THAT bad.
I personally haven't had the "optimization" issues others have complained about.  i5 3750 @ 4.0ghz and ATI 280X here.  Can't complain so far.  People with AMD CPUs need to stop complaining and realize that their CPU is roughly equivalent to a 6-year-old Intel CPU when it comes to single-threaded applications.  Games are single-threaded (mostly).  Time to get a real gaming rig and buy Intel.  If you don't have a lot of cash get a Celeron.  For games a fast dual-core is much better than anything AMD has.
I'm slightly concerned that there won't be enough cash to pay to develop new content (raids and expansion packs).  I'm not entirely over this but I figure I'm going to give it until WoD launches and see how it shakes out.  I'm cool with playing a niche game as long as the development dollars are focused on keeping raids coming at a reasonable rate.
Finally, I really enjoy the gameplay.  It's challenging, the world is beautiful, combat is varied and fun, lore is great -- It's really a breath of fresh air.
So I'm going to keep on playing.
 
Thanks for the great game, Carbine!
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Thought you should know that I have read a few articles that say the WoD was cancelled. I just read one from May 2014 http://www.polygon.com/2014/5/2/5674352/World-of-darkness-cancellation-CCP-Fanfest, another from June 2014 http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jun/05/world-of-darkness-the-inside-story-mmo-ccp-white-wolf.
 
If you go to their FB page, they haven't posted anything since April of 2014. If your waiting for that game you may be waiting forever from what I have read.
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This is acronym confusion. The World of Darkness MMO, in conjunction with White Wolf games, IS cancelled, and was WoD.
Warlords of Draenor, the next WoW expansion, is very much going to drop and is also WoD.
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I think the casuals should just leave.  
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			removed to stay on topic	
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The problem isn't with content being painfully unrewarding and attunement a slog nobody ever wants to look at again, it's that we don't understand what's fun. If they never announced or provided achievements for server firsts, people would still work just as hard for them; it's the effort, not the prize.
 
You put out a lot of good thoughts, Vic, but I'm just not sure about this one.
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I think I agree with VicVanMeter here. I don't want the challenge to go away.
 
For me changes like the timer being removed are good, because they give breathing room. Yes, the overall challenge is diminished, but only in the places I don't care as much about; for me the individual bosses are "where it's at".
 
I have not gotten to raid yet, but I admit to being a bit worried about it. If the raids are indeed that challenging, I think it's going to be quite hard for a wider population to consume, and yes as a result Wildstar will become a smaller, niche MMO. This might be the intent and it might be acceptable. For me it would be a shame though, since I would probably not be part of that niche due to time constraints and I desperately want to experience all the game has to offer. I think the combat system and the art, style, etc, are amazing and rewarding. 
 
I also do not want to see watered-down LFR-type bridges built. And here I deviate; I would rather see content get nerfed a bit instead. I know it's a very unpopular sentiment, but given the choice between a thriving Wildstar with mass-appeal and a niche, high-barrier-to-entry Wildstar contingent upon said nerfs, I choose the nerfs. I want this game to catch fire and I don't think it's "hardcore" element is what makes it so appealing. I think the artists have it, and the combat system is beautiful.
 
I am lobbying for a happy medium; somewhere in between. Bring the skill cap down a bit, but don't serve up marginal, generic alternatives (LFR for example).
 
Also, fix the rewards....loot is bad in this game (yes, I know they are working it and I am optimistic).	
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It sounds elitist, but look at what we complain about when we're given what we want.  WoW's reputation hasn't improved with more accessible content, and despite the fact that heroic raids aren't really that simple, we clamored for a harder game.  Now we got a harder game, and people are complaining about it being too hard.
 
Now, you know me and know I'm all about increasing the carrots to get people running full time and to make attunement a skill check, not a time check, but I think people don't know how much they'd dislike if we got everything we asked for.  Because we have in other games, and we didn't like it.
 
And I'm sorry, if people can't be bothered to do any attunement at all, if they can't run adventures, dungeons, and world bosses, I'm not sure what makes people think they can walk into GA without GA being reduced in difficulty.  GA makes some of the vet dungeons look regular.  Honestly, attunement now shouldn't be that big of a deal with the requisite reduced to bronze.
 
Outside of that, I'm all for giving people reasons to run lower tiers of content, so I'm behind the RNG changes and gearing shift.  I just can't say there should never be any time the game forces you to clear content to move on to other content.
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I think I agree with VicVanMeter here. I don't want the challenge to go away.
 
For me changes like the timer being removed are good, because they give breathing room. Yes, the overall challenge is diminished, but only in the places I don't care as much about; for me the individual bosses are "where it's at".
 
I have not gotten to raid yet, but I admit to being a bit worried about it. If the raids are indeed that challenging, I think it's going to be quite hard for a wider population to consume, and yes as a result Wildstar will become a smaller, niche MMO. This might be the intent and it might be acceptable. For me it would be a shame though, since I would probably not be part of that niche due to time constraints and I desperately want to experience all the game has to offer. I think the combat system and the art, style, etc, are amazing and rewarding. 
 
I also do not want to see watered-down LFR-type bridges built. And here I deviate; I would rather see content get nerfed a bit instead. I know it's a very unpopular sentiment, but given the choice between a thriving Wildstar with mass-appeal and a niche, high-barrier-to-entry Wildstar contingent upon said nerfs, I choose the nerfs. I want this game to catch fire and I don't think it's "hardcore" element is what makes it so appealing. I think the artists have it, and the combat system is beautiful.
 
I am lobbying for a happy medium; somewhere in between. Bring the skill cap down a bit, but don't serve up marginal, generic alternatives (LFR for example).
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See, I'm totally against nerfing the content.  Content is challenging, but people see challenge as some kind of barrier limiting entry, like only a few would ever be good enough to raid.  That just isn't true.  Given time, I think everyone can clear GA, it's all about whether they want to work at it.
 
The biggest problem is that, as Frig intimated, running 5 mans on vet level generally has one carrot with the RNG being so bad, and that's attunement.  I think they should expand the elder gem system to include more, maybe pay-into dungeons with gems and things like that, and let vet dungeon running earn gems above the cap.
 
Also can't wait for vet shiphands.  I can't figure out what the holdup is on that.
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Sorry, I should have blocked my commentary better. I meant that I agree with you on the challenge portion, and the rest of my post was definitely my opinion which I knew was not your position.
 
I don't really want to see the challenge nerfed, I do love it. But, and I am being pretty practical here, I think that while the general player 'can' learn and succeed in the raid content, most players will likely just move on. I am more worried about a max exodus by the meat of the player base. Yes, players need to lace up their boots and buckle down, but they don't. It may be sad, and it may be on a larger scale, a disheartening indicator of the next generation in general...but at the end of the day it still means empty servers.
 
Empty servers is the worst possible outcome, for me, hence my position on nerfs.
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See, I'm totally against nerfing the content.
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Vic, everyone is going to comment based on his/her own experiences so I respect your perspective and I have one of my own as well. I believe the level of difficulty will result in losses; I just see no way around it. And it's not because individuals don't like challenges, it's because (and again, my perspective/experiences) individuals play with others and have to succeed as a group. A high, HIGH level of skills is demanded at the group level and there is nothing a single individual can do to carry; so, each person needs to bring that high level of skill.
 
Of course, this means more failure and failure breeds dissent and dissatisfaction. Of course, success feels REALLY good, but you have to get there. Again, the challenge is fun, but failing for 4 hours straight because your healer just "can't stay alive" is not fun. Replace the healer? Cause a rift? Drama? You are talking about exclusion and that just doesn't fly in accessible social gaming environments.
 
The point is at this degree of difficulty, it happens and no matter how hard you try, you are going to carve out part of the player base as a result. If that is the intent so be it. I just hope it's not because Wildstar has done things that I just cannot find in other MMOs and I am not sure I could play them as a result. So, I want to see it succeed.
 
To be clear, I am not saying Wildstar is wrong for making things so hard. I am just saying it will not result in a broad, thriving player base. I am simply saying, it might not be for me or my friends and that's too bad.
 
I do definitely agree with you about the carrot though. Having incentive would certainly help things, but incentive is nothing if not attainable.	
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			BTW, it's worth mentioning that I am very comfortable with the difficulty personally. I am currently only 2/4 silver, but our guild has not had much luck in fielding successful groups on a regular basis. So, just wanted to clarify that I personally don't think it's too hard, I just think it's globally...too hard....if that makes sense..	
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Ultimately the decision to nerf or not to nerf is not up to you or me or any other single player.  Carbine needs to maintain a certain level of active subs to keep the doors open and the lights on.  We don't know what number that is, but Carbine knows, and NCSoft knows.  If they aren't hitting that number, and if their subs don't start to rise soon, they will either have to make changes, or resign themselves to being out of work within a year or so.  
 
Now, given the feedback they are getting all over the gaming forums, many players are not being entertained by the game the way it stands.  Some are.  Are there enough who like it the way that it is to enable the game to continue to be this way?  Maybe. But the fact that they are dropping the attunement from silver medal to bronze medal screams "No! No we don't have enough players!"  And it also screams that they think the way to get more players is to continue improving the accessibility.  
 
So there are three options here, and they are mutually exclusive:
 
1) Keep the difficulty the way it is. Hope that the sub bleeding stops, and maybe a few people come back once the bugs are out because they really like Wildstar's current version of challenging content and that's what they want in an MMO. 
 
2) Nerf the difficulty. Lose the "hardcores" leaving in a huff.  Hope that you attract or re-attract enough of the casuals and soft-cores that you can keep the doors open.  
 
3) Keep the difficulty on the current content (mostly) but add a pile of new content targeted at a lower difficulty level.  Hope this brings the casuals and soft-cores back without alienating the hardcores. 
 
Carbine seems to be taking the third approach, but the issue comes with the costs and time associated with creating all-new content, testing it, and pushing it out the door.  Will they have the time and funding to do it? Will people like the new content enough to come back?  Will the hardcores scream and leave in a huff anyway because Carbine betrayed them?  It's a tough road, and the more time and value-conscious path would be option two -- nerf the existing content and sadly wave goodbye to the "hardcores", just because it's easier and faster to nerf what you have than to build all-new from scratch.  
 
Really, they've got themselves backed into a corner here.  They chose to roll on the "hardcore" thing, perhaps because (as Gaffney stated) they didn't think they had a chance to grab any of the casual crowd. I think this was a mistake -- I think there was a casual crowd that was willing to make Wildstar their new home.  WoW is good but it's tired.  A game similar to WoW but with fresh combat and a coat of nice paint could potentially do very well for itself among casuals.  Not enough to "beat" WoW: that won't happen. But enough to have a respectable market share.  Now they're launched, the "hardcore" thing doesn't seem to be flying (despite the fact that a few people just love it), and backing down on the hardcore thing is going to make the Elitists who are still with the game feel betrayed. 
 
I really don't see any good business options for Carbine here.  Nerfing is the obvious route for time and money reasons, but there's no doubt the hardcores will scream and drive off with their Dudgeons on High, and it may be too late to get the casual crowd back on board anyway.  I don't envy them their choices, that's for sure.
 
But in any case:  no one's preference for hardcore or nerfed content is going to make the call.  The numbers will make the call.  If going casual looks like the only possible route to survival (not guaranteed, mind you, but possible), Carbine will have to decide if it wants to live Casual (maybe) or die on Hardcore Hill.  
 
I don't care how much anyone screams that MMO players are currently "lazy", "entitled", "don't want to work", blah blah blah.  It doesn't matter what the "hardcores" think. No one has to keep playing Wildstar, and your tossing out insults is certainly not going to help keep anyone on board.  You aren't going to change market forces or the minds of gamers, because honestly, who really gives a crap whether or not you, Mr. Elitist You, thinks that I'm not "hardcore" enough?  Why in the name of all the gods and little fishes should anyone pay attention to your bloviating about what you think MMO play should be all about?  You absolutely don't matter in my life, and you never will.  Nor should you. 
 
I wish Carbine luck.  There's a lot to like in this game. Some parts of it show obvious love and care.  But they targeted the wrong group of customers.  We'll see if they can turn it around or not. 
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BTW, it's worth mentioning that I am very comfortable with the difficulty personally. I am currently only 2/4 silver, but our guild has not had much luck in fielding successful groups on a regular basis. So, just wanted to clarify that I personally don't think it's too hard, I just think it's globally...too hard....if that makes sense..
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{| class="blockquote"
BTW, it's worth mentioning that I am very comfortable with the difficulty personally. I am currently only 2/4 silver, but our guild has not had much luck in fielding successful groups on a regular basis. So, just wanted to clarify that I personally don't think it's too hard, I just think it's globally...too hard....if that makes sense..
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