117037-do-you-think-this-game-might-actually-die-page-5

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My $0.02: I think we, the players, are hoping for Drop 3 to be a "magic wand" much more than Carbine is. Carbine has given us a plan. It starts with drop 3 - more solo stuff to do, bug and QOL fixes, class changes, rune changes and some stat balancing. It continues into drop 4 with the new dungeon, more solo content, itemization changes, more class/role balancing, possible currency changes, and hopefully the new dungeon and Veteran shiphands. And then, it goes from there with things they have only hinted at.
 
As players, we are seeing our guildmates, friends, enemies, and whatnot leave the game, and it's upsetting. We are feeling the stress of still enjoying a game that is not quite living up to what we hoped it would. Personally, I've been really clear with my guild that I do not believe drop 3 is a magic drop. I don't think drop 4 is either. I do believe that, between the two, we will see generally happier players after that. If there's stuff dropping from dungeons and raids that we want, that gives us more reason to run them (outside of attunement runs or just for the fun of it). We want more stuff to do. I think the dungeons and raids are awesome, but I also look forward to maybe having some shorter runs that are still rewarding and fun in the future. I look forward to running dungeons knowing they will drop better stuff, or at least give me a path to better stuff, than I get from crafted gear. I look forward to raid drops in GA making sense! (Please, make them make sense!!)
 
I don't see anything that says NCSoft or Carbine are giving up what they have or calling it a day. Will the subscription model change? I don't know. Maybe. Will more people leave? Probably. Will this game be the same in 6 months that it is now? I think it will be better. Early adopters of games, especially MMOs, are often set up for a lot of heartache and frustration as devs figure out what's working, what's not, and work on getting things right. In the end, I still believe in this game enough to keep going, keep my guildies as happy as I can, and stick around to see what happens next. Each person has to make the call for themselves what they are willing to stick around for. However, I suggest people stop hoping for a magic drop and simply employ the time tested technique of patience. Huffing and puffing and stomping our feet won't make the devs work any faster, but it does make our community look like less than a stellar place to be.	
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its not going to die, its just takin a few good lickens. but it has too solid a base (IE, first among many to build it's all around a core that is 'Fun Gameplay/engaging mechanics' - whens the last time you had fun Grinding since?) to go down and when it pulls out of this it'll be ridiculous and EVERYONE KNOWS IT, thats why the other big boys are releasing their last big bags of goods, trying to kick while wildstar is down hoping they can smother it out before its inevitable rebound. really just depends if the high ups realize its not "faith" needed but rather just a matter of time, but they have pleanty of time before plug pulling is on the table. watch what happens once the other's bags are upside down and triclkin to a stop just as WS is finally able and hefts its massive sack above its head/onto the table to the horror of all else.
 
mark em.
 
swarms en mass calling for respawn incs, lol	
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Strange as this sounds, the optimist in me thinks that it's because they're tripping all over themselves trying to figure out what the hell to do because they honestly thought that the grindy design decisions of 2005 would go over really well in a game of 2014 and they have no idea how to salvage a lot of their original plans.
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That's my pet theory.  I can just see that team meeting: "People hate dailies!?  who knew?"
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I can't go into a lot of detail yet, but Contracts has both (content and gear) and Eldan Forge is a pure gear progression system. Contracts are focused on providing both a repeatable end game solo content pipeline (something we're sorely missing outside of the daily quest zones) and an alternate progression path for gear upgrades (all the way up to GA equivalent loot) that will be available to non-raiders. Eldan Forge is focused on taking all the gear you don't have a use for (quest greens, blues that aren't upgrades) and giving them real value by being to able to turn them into better rewards.
 
We have a few changes coming in November's Drop that will definitely help things out in the short term - Rune system changes, Salvaging changes, etc. Then we have another slew of changes coming in the (currently scheduled for) January Drop including a complete reworking on currencies (Renown, Glory, and Elder Gems), new repeatable content (Veteran Shiphands/Protogames), a reworking of how World Loot is distributed, and reitemization of Veterans through Datascape. I'll be able to talk more about the January features after the November update goes live and we can get the post-Nov changes up on the PTR for your testing and consumption. And we've even begun work on systems coming in the (currently scheduled for) April Drop. It will be a very exciting next couple of months.
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The game is WildStar, and WildStar is the game. Too many complainers are trying to change the game entirely. Too many people are trying to take that steak they ordered off the menu and turn it into fish.
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Yep. Looking at the passable Northern Wastes dailies (at least that area is compact and can be completed relatively fast) and the Blighthaven dailies (group dailies, seriously, OMGWTFLOLBBQ?!?!), I wonder if the original plan that covered the next 12 months just foresaw more rep grind and more dailies, i.e. the content that Carbine has all planned out and ready to go at the monthly cadence.
 
However, once Carbine saw the unwashed masses at their gates with pitchforks and torches and sign "NO MOAR DAILIZ!!", they realized they had to change course, which scrapped all or most of the content of their 12 month plan. That course change and coming up with more modern MMO content doesn't happen on a dime and in turn contributed to the release schedule going from monthly to quarterly.
 
I'm ok with the occasional daily added in, it helps with EGs and can be a relaxing mindless exercise, but please no more group dailies, like Blighthaven.
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WoW does but that's the separate Challenge Dungeon queue.  IMO that's an idea that Carbine needs to adopt.  Make whatever is the attunement requirement the baseline for the normal Veteran run and readjust the medal tiers for the Challenge versions.  Anything to separate the "Gold or GTFO" crowd from those who don't care.
 
Blizzard must have added this after i stopped playing. But yeah, I agree with you, medals need to be a separate mode like you said.
 
Your first and third sentences are spot on, the second not so much.  The return on investment is absolutely out of whack.  Beyond bad stats and rune slots, when you get BoP drops for classes not in the party... well, that's just demoralizing.  Mixing in the the "medal" feature was one of the most effective things I've seen to foster a toxic community.
 
I blame the "hardcore" ethos on the utter stinginess of dungeon runs.  I finally broke down and started doing dungeon runs on a WoW alt.  It was fun!  I got stuff!  I got enough xp that I could abandon some of the grindy missions I was getting sick of.  I was saying, "self you need to do more of these". 
 
Here... why bother?  Chances are excellent that I'm going to come out of it not even coming close to covering the hefty repair bill.  If I should have the temerity to die it's likely the party will wipe.  Even if they don't, one or more of the party are likely to leave, 'cause reasons.  Small group content must be puggable.  It doesn't need to be trivial, but it needs to be more tolerant to mistakes.  There needs to be a mechanism to filter non-medal, medal or don't care.
 
Exactly my thoughts. Dungeons in WoW are fun and laid back. Dungeons in WS, because of the medal system, is stressing. Give me a choice to play for fun or to really challenge myself. The medal system only works when you have 5 players already super experienced in a dungeon and need another layer of challenge. For example in GW2, since players have played those dungeons to death, players have now created their own challenges to see how fast and flawlessly they can beat said dungeons....but that only works because they played the dungeons to death and the initial challenge was not there anymore. Let player skill evolve naturally, not force them to become better.
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More Solo stuff other than dailies?
 
I'm sure that a good portion of people who left didn't leave because of lack of Solo stuff. It was because Pugging dungeons was a pretty miserable experience.
 
Most solo players enjoy pugging from time to time.
 
Yes, Lethality. Changing the game would be a good idea. Or leave it as it is for the 1%, I guess.	
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I think this is true. And I don't think the game ever set out to be *hardcore*- only the raids. It seems to me they put a lot of casual content in the game. The leveling is casual. The shiphands are casual. The adventures are casual. Housing is casual. Only the raids are hardcore and the dungeons are semi-hardcore.
 
This game doesn't have the content that a mature MMO has and they've admitted they want more content for casual, but I don't think they've really neglected the casual gamer. Perhaps they've failed trying to be all things to all people, but you kind of have to do that and there's only so much content you can release at launch.
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"Eldan Forge is focused on taking all the gear you don't have a use for (quest greens, blues that aren't upgrades) and giving them real value by being to able to turn them into better rewards"
 
Oh, sh!t!! Did I just read "mystic forge"? If you don't know it google "guild wars 2 and mystic forge", or "mystic toilet", as it is also known. 	
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"Eldan Forge is focused on taking all the gear you don't have a use for (quest greens, blues that aren't upgrades) and giving them real value by being to able to turn them into better rewards"
 
Oh, sh!t!! Did I just read "mystic forge"? If you don't know it google "guild wars 2 and mystic forge", or "mystic toilet", as it is also known.
 
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that would be...I don't want to use the E word, but it'd definitely be awesome.  The mystic forge from GW2 was a *great* idea.
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Why do I think that? Because they made most crafted gear be pre raid bis and dungeon rewards be unrewarding
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I pretty much think the game did set out to be hardcore everyone needs to raid or die. Currently at end game, its set up exactly to funnel everyone into raids.
 
You get to lvl 50, you attune, and you go raids. 
 
Why do I think that? Because they made most crafted gear be pre raid bis and dungeon rewards be unrewarding. 
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But see, the crafted gear points out that they WERE trying to create a viable endgame path that didn't involve dungeons. They wanted you to be able to work toward great gear without stepping foot in a dungeon- this idea is VERY casual friendly. Unfortunately, the result of this was not good. People lost the motivation to do dungeons because they rarely ever got upgrades. But I'm pretty sure that the crafted gear thing was them trying NOT to funnel people into group content.
 
I see what you mean....but yeah, that was a complete failure on their part then. I think the key is that solo and/or casuals still want to do group content (dungeons) for upgrades, but as I have stated, imo, I think the the dungeons and their systems did not make a great puggable experience....couple that with the horrible itemization, which I know they are planning to fix....and you got a recipe for disaster. 
 
Yes, the best gear was always going to be the raid stuff. If having a few pieces of gear unobtainable by the casual crowd makes it casual unfriendly, then yes, I guess the game is hardcore. I don't think of it that way (and no, I will likely never get DS gear, and it doesn't bother me one bit). But I think they showed a lot of thought into trying to provide stuff for casuals. It just didn't all pan out.
 
I don't think most players have problems with raid gear being the best, myself included. It's always been that way, even in WoW. When I was playing WoW, I was only ever able to get a couple of pieces of raid gear....but that never bothered me. No one will say WoW is casual unfriendly either. The key is balance. WS lacks good balance between casual and hardcore. Casuals want dungeons too. Which is why I keep on harping about dungeons needing to be a great puggable experience and that there needs to be a good and smooth difficulty ramp for content.
 
My experience is totally the opposite. I bought a copy for my fiance who has never played an online game in her life. Her last game was one of the Tomb Raider games, maybe 10 years ago? She was constantly questing above her level because she found the on-level mobs too boring.
 
Your finace must have latent gaming abilities then...don't let go of her lol. Though I can assure you that, based on my experiences, questing wasn't casual at all. This pov is echoed by many players when they said that the game got more interesting at level 20+ and many couldn't pull more than one group of enemies at the same time. I doubt this is the case now though, my second toon got to lvl 50 faster than my first toon, but that's only because I was more experienced with the systems of the game...
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 Eldan Forge is focused on taking all the gear you don't have a use for (quest greens, blues that aren't upgrades) and giving them real value by being to able to turn them into better rewards.
 
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	DO YOU THINK THIS GAME MIGHT ACTUALLY DIE?      
yeah right now its in very critical condition. But there is hope in drop 3. When the drop happens its a make or break situation. Im hoping for a major improvement but it does not look that way. November is here and nothing yet. Some good games coming out for Christmas as always to keeps options open.	
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Just a reminder to please keep this thread on topic.
 
Thank you.
- Team WildStar 	
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Just a reminder to please keep this thread on topic.
 
Thank you.
- Team WildStar 
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That's one explanation. I haven't known anyone who has left the game because of it, though.
 
I don't understand why the current attunement process would drive anyone away. It's mostly just playing the game, which presumably people who like the game would enjoy doing.
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Just chiming in to answer your inquiry. I left the game because of it. Not because it was difficult, I like challenge. I left because it became a chore, even within guildies, to get enough people to get the attunement done in one sitting. At one point I just got tired of wasting 2 or 3 hours without the assurance we'd get silver. Yeah yeah L2P noob, whatever, I appreciate challenge but I didn't enjoy all the RNG and complexities tied to GETTING to the door of raiding. When the Bronze change came about, I had no more friends to attempt attunement with, let alone raiding. Haven't logged since.
 
So there, now you know someone.
 
My two cents. Articles like the one from Glassdoor shows exactly what I've been preaching weeks before I left. Devs have the right idea but the management types don't have a friggin' clue how to run a game.
 
Take it for what it's worth. Loved the game, hated the execution.
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I do understand people getting burned out on silvers. I was against the change, but I see now it was probably the right course of action. I still don't have silver SSM or SC because we aren't really trying those anymore, which makes me a little sad.
 
If you are NE and you decide to try again, look me up. I'll get you attuned :)
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			The lack of people is really starting to get to me in some ways. I've been wanting to do more dungeons lately, but queue times are impossible. x.x And then I thought, "I really want to do some PvP", so I made an alt I could PvP freely on without worrying about pulling ahead of my husband on my main, but... apparently sub-50 PvP doesn't exist either. *sigh*	
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The lack of people is really starting to get to me in some ways. I've been wanting to do more dungeons lately, but queue times are impossible. x.x And then I thought, "I really want to do some PvP", so I made an alt I could PvP freely on without worrying about pulling ahead of my husband on my main, but... apparently sub-50 PvP doesn't exist either. *sigh*
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The lack of people is really starting to get to me in some ways. I've been wanting to do more dungeons lately, but queue times are impossible.
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			You can see the decline of interest for Wildstar on the forums. They better push Drop 3 before people stop caring. 	
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I started playing during open beta, and was quite critical of the game. Ended up leveling to 50 and deciding that there was just too much wrong, and not enough right to offset it. Personal opinion, and there was no I quit post, I simply left. Deciding to return to try and eak out some enjoyment for my deluxe edition investment, I am kind of surprised at the state of the game from reading the forums. I fully expected an exodus, but did not foresee it being this drastic,
 
What happened?
 
I did not return to be critical, just to try and have a little fun, but upon reading the forums I am kind of shocked. in spite of my reservations, I did not see the game to be in this state at this point in time. I fully expected a healthy, although somewhat niche community, and what I am gathering from the forums here and elsewhere is that the game has taken quite a hit to it's player base.	
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Sarcasm? Irony? Have you ever used this shit? ^^ :D I assume it is irony.
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Yeah, this is my biggest issue right now. Queues ARE bad. I haven't had too many issues personally as long as I'm willing to tank on my alt to get my pugging fix in, but if I go on my slinger it's usually a guild group these days.
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I started playing during open beta, and was quite critical of the game. Ended up leveling to 50 and deciding that there was just too much wrong, and not enough right to offset it. Personal opinion, and there was no I quit post, I simply left. Deciding to return to try and eak out some enjoyment for my deluxe edition investment, I am kind of surprised at the state of the game from reading the forums. I fully expected an exodus, but did not foresee it being this drastic,
 
What happened?
 
I did not return to be critical, just to try and have a little fun, but upon reading the forums I am kind of shocked. in spite of my reservations, I did not see the game to be in this state at this point in time. I fully expected a healthy, although somewhat niche community, and what I am gathering from the forums here and elsewhere is that the game has taken quite a hit to it's player base.
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{| class="blockquote"
I started playing during open beta, and was quite critical of the game. Ended up leveling to 50 and deciding that there was just too much wrong, and not enough right to offset it. Personal opinion, and there was no I quit post, I simply left. Deciding to return to try and eak out some enjoyment for my deluxe edition investment, I am kind of surprised at the state of the game from reading the forums. I fully expected an exodus, but did not foresee it being this drastic,
 
What happened?
 
I did not return to be critical, just to try and have a little fun, but upon reading the forums I am kind of shocked. in spite of my reservations, I did not see the game to be in this state at this point in time. I fully expected a healthy, although somewhat niche community, and what I am gathering from the forums here and elsewhere is that the game has taken quite a hit to it's player base.
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When my husband and I queue, we're dps and healer. Occasionally we get a friend to join us as a dps (or a tank if we pressure him xD). But the queues are just ridiculous. Multiple hours long and then we end up having to log of for whatever without ever having done the dungeon or adventure we wanted. :(
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I started playing during open beta, and was quite critical of the game. Ended up leveling to 50 and deciding that there was just too much wrong, and not enough right to offset it. Personal opinion, and there was no I quit post, I simply left. Deciding to return to try and eak out some enjoyment for my deluxe edition investment, I am kind of surprised at the state of the game from reading the forums. I fully expected an exodus, but did not foresee it being this drastic,
 
What happened?
 
I did not return to be critical, just to try and have a little fun, but upon reading the forums I am kind of shocked. in spite of my reservations, I did not see the game to be in this state at this point in time. I fully expected a healthy, although somewhat niche community, and what I am gathering from the forums here and elsewhere is that the game has taken quite a hit to it's player base.
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PvE Raiding : Requires 40 people to play
 
Did I miss anything?
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The kicker is that none of these things are in the works to be changed, and if they are, they won't be seen until the middle of next year.
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The are working on most of these things- at least, the ones you haven't mis-characterized (you don't need 40 people for raiding- you need 40 people for DS).
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I do understand people getting burned out on silvers. I was against the change, but I see now it was probably the right course of action. I still don't have silver SSM or SC because we aren't really trying those anymore, which makes me a little sad.
 
If you are NE and you decide to try again, look me up. I'll get you attuned :)
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The lack of people is really starting to get to me in some ways. I've been wanting to do more dungeons lately, but queue times are impossible. x.x And then I thought, "I really want to do some PvP", so I made an alt I could PvP freely on without worrying about pulling ahead of my husband on my main, but... apparently sub-50 PvP doesn't exist either. *sigh*
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The pessimist in me just happens to also be the tin foil hatted conspiracist and well... I'm just thinking a lot of what is happening right now feels familiar. A giant "magic wand" patch on the way. Megaservers in place. High profile interviews where the producers' every sentence seems like it was scripted by a team of lawyers. Every other big dog on the block is about to launch huge content expansions that will likely decimate what is left of your game's dwindling population unless you do something huge. Just saying as someone who's been to through it a few times now, this situation feels awfully familiar.
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It's not the lack of people that is the problem.  It's the lack of players queuing for dungeons because itemization is broken.
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MMO developers don't delay an essentially finished content patch for over two months for bug fixes. They just don't. A week or two for additional QA? Yes, but two months to add a bunch of stuff that could break more things while going on a seek and destroy bug hunt doesn't make sense. From a programming perspective, you don't drop everything to go on a bug hunt. Give this these a read to get a clearer picture why it doesn't happen: http://mrlizard.com/rants/why-havent-they-fixed-this-bug/  and  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mythical_Man-Month  . It would be a great a PR thing to do, but there's very valid reasons why MMO game developers just don't do that.
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I'm queueing for leveling dungeons, so it's another problem entirely. :(
 
@Sly: Thanks for the suggestion. We're on Entity and don't have a guild. xD Holding out for the right RP guild. But a circle might help...
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I fail to see the point of your post here.
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I got all of my silvers before the bronze nerf strictly by solo pugging.  That was back when there were still more people playing, and when you would see familiar faces when queuing a lot.  Most pugs at that time were also trying for silvers. 
 
In any case, these days I don't expect any pugs to be trying for silvers, but lo and behold, I decided to solo queue up a first available veteran for no shits and giggles, and I got Skullcano... which then went on to silver Skullcano with 10 minutes left without saying a single word in chat the entire time.
 
So it's certainly still possible to silver dungeons, even if you're not trying.
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You said they aren't planning to address these things and they are. I was pointing this out.
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Yep. I actually get silver KV and STL a lot while pugging. I've been a little hesitant to queue for SC or SSM on my tank just because I really like to know the pulls cold before I try to tank something in a pug. And if I'm going to pug these days, it's going to be on my tank just to get a faster queue to pop.
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The really surprising thing was that nobody talked for the entire run, not just me.  Before Tukka (sp?), I was expecting someone to call interrupt order, but no, and nothing bad happened. 
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Did you read the part where I said that it wouldn't be until the middle of next year if / when they do release the things they're working on?  
 
Let's try to leave the white knighting alone for a second and start reading / stop nitpicking.
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Crafting : mostly broken, except being able to craft gear that's better than dungeons for raids
PvE Raiding : Requires 40 people to play
PvE Dungeons : pointless, rng infested, and the gear isn't best in slot unless RNG favors you with good slots
Gear: itemization is either 1. Pigeonholed or 2. Poorly itemized for the class 3. Determined by RNG
PvP : plagued with wintraders, a giant gear gap, a worthless (now laid off) PvP developer, harsh penalties for dcs / bugs, no people to play with
Housing : good if you're bored
Casual : a few daily zones, very few costumes
Elder game: very alt unfriendly, high RNG on finishing your character with Amps / ability points
Developers : don't listen
Management : can't make deadlines, and break promises
 
QA: doesn't even happen
 
Pretty much RNG and broken shit.
 
The kicker is that none of these things are in the works to be changed, and if they are, they won't be seen until the middle of next year.
 
Did I miss anything?
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I'm not nitpicking or whiteknighting. Someone came back and asked a question and you gave a misleading answer.
 
Most of the fixes are slated to be in place January/February, not "middle of next year" (though some are).
 
And it's grossly misleading to say you need 40 people to raid.
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Perhaps next time you could simply state: "There are 20 man raids, but the majority of raiders believe Datascape to be the fun and exciting goal of raiders."
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You're just looking for problems, those aren't really problems.
 
Crafting, hows it mostly broken? I haven't run into any issues. lol.
PvE Raiding:  No it requires 20 people to play.  My guild has no problem filling the roster for 40 man... its just getting everyone through GA thats hard.  Again not broken.
PvE Dungeons:  Not pointless Gold runs give chance for Artifact Hands.  Pointless if you're going for Bronze sure.
Gear:  I agree Itemization has issues here.  However thats being fixed in the Drop thats releasing this month. 
PvP:  Win Traders has nothing to do with the game or Carbine, again blame your fellow players.  Gear gap is there for sure again they are trying to fix that next drop.
Housing:  Some people sub just for housing.  Thats a matter of opinion not broke.
Casual:  Game is not even close to mature, why would there be more... they added a daily zone already lol and another is on the way along with new content.  Not broke you are just needy.
Elder Game:  They made this loads easier for alts and attunement in general.  Silver to Bronze completion on dungeon phase, world boss changes etc etc.  Elder game is meant to be time consuming.
Developers:  Lol don't listen?  We have server problems because you closed transfers and cant transfer from pve to pvp... not even 2 weeks later they re-opened transfers for both ways even though they didn't want to... you call that not listening?  Jaded much?
Management:  Ties into above, players wanted bug free content at the expense of drops being less frequent they did that.  Megasevers were right on time, the maintance for megaservers was right on time.  The move with server racks... right on time.  Actually they are right on time 90% of the time lol.  Months ago they said drop 3 would be coming mid novmember looks like they are track for that deadline as well.  Where do you get your info from?
QA:  100 pages of bug fixs from QA says your wrong yet again.
 
None of these things are in the works to being changed... dude you have a chip on your shoulder.  I suggest you take a break from this game and cool off you are becoming a cancer spewing bs in every post.
 
You are the exact type of person that spreads negativity with false assumptions and facts.  Almost nothing in your post here is correct.
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I simply gave a realistic answer.  You say slated to be in place in January / February, just like the developers made us promises about sept / oct releases.   #logic would imply that not only is the middle of the year a realistic answer, it is a safe and the answer that the poster was looking for.
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Because I don't believe that to be true?
 
I don't know the mind of every raider, but those people I do talk to are having fun and enjoying the 20 man raids.
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I have friends that enjoy picking flowers in their garden every day.
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My logic says differently. I'll be surprised if the itemization changes aren't in by the end of first quarter next year.
 
But either way, you could have said "they are planning to address this stuff, but it may not be until the middle of next year". As far as I know they are planning to address all of the issues that you listed (that are real issues) so the first part of your "or" statement was misleading.
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The point is, some people like 20 man raiding in Wildstar.
 
The 1000s of people that have left the game in droves did not.  If you create a game / raiding environment for the people that have spoken the loudest by leaving, well, then you might have a worthwhile game to play.  Instead you're left with the people who will overlook the glaring issues with the game, who will have fun regardless of how many bugs / issues they encounter.  You have people that will overlook things like having your GM's attunement negated, and continue to raid without them.  Then you have people that only have a few hours a week to spend in a game that will not take lightly the giant bugs etc this game has shown them.
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Did thousands of people leave because of bugs or not enjoying the 20 man raid?
 
And if it was that people didn't enjoy the 20 man raids then say "people don't enjoy the 20 man raid". Don't say "you need 40 people to raid". It's just a false statement.
 
But really, I've seen very little complaints anywhere about the 20 man raid. People speak really highly of that part of raiding in this game.
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{| class="blockquote"
The sense I've gotten is that they finally realized that they needed to retool their development and QA practices.  At least I hope so.  It was painfully obvious from this side of the fence.  And now they're dealing with a corporate restructuring.  Coulda, shoulda, woulda... it's all in the past.  As long as my CREDD holds out, I'll be here at least until Drop 4 when I think they'll be back on track.
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{| class="blockquote"
Yes, Lethality. Changing the game would be a good idea. Or leave it as it is for the 1%, I guess.
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			Well played Yas! ;)	
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{| class="blockquote"
My point is that Carbine's stated motivations for their actions are actually directly contradictory to what their actions will do.
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{| class="blockquote"
My point is that Carbine's stated motivations for their actions are actually directly contradictory to what their actions will do. They're saying they want fewer bugs, but what they're doing creates more bugs; and the more bugs they create, the greater the likelihood of a bad bug making it's way into the live game. That means they're either making the worst possible decisions for the sake of some dubious PR benefits, or they're doing something else that they're not telling us about.
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{| class="blockquote"
This stuff is more complicated than a single motivation and a single action.
 
Delaying the patch was at least about two things, both of which Carbine said they were doing: taking more time and listening to QA, and getting the rune changes in, which people were demanding.
 
Not releasing holiday content was an example of them listening to QA about what was feasible and not adding more content than they could handle.
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{| class="blockquote"
This stuff is more complicated than a single motivation and a single action.
 
Delaying the patch was at least about two things, both of which Carbine said they were doing: taking more time and listening to QA, and getting the rune changes in, which people were demanding.
 
Not releasing holiday content was an example of them listening to QA about what was feasible and not adding more content than they could handle.
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{| class="blockquote"
Sly, you said you're a software developer, so think about it: they're telling us that they're delaying content to take more time for QA. That makes sense. Adding in more stuff guarantees they're creating more bugs: that's not whiny customer grumbling, it's a fact of software development. So their stated reasons for why they're doing makes no sense.
 
*snip*
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I have to say that adding ability/amp point items to vendors isn't a coding issue.  It's a "add this thing on the server side vendor table" issue.  At worst they had to create a bunch of new items, that are just copy pasted versions of an existing item, but with the name changed a dozen times. That could be literally done in an hour, and it still took multiple weeks to arrive on live servers, despite requiring no actual coding.
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Actually, I'm all for keeping it as it is for the 1%. Just as soon as they can pay for it.
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This convo reminds me of -
 	
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We...are..? Why do people insist on playing a game they don't enjoy then demand the game gets changed so they can ruin it for everyone who does enjoy it only so the original complainer can go tour another game? "This game isn't for me? Change it so it's not for them!"
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However, since that does not appear to be the case at this juncture
 
 
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Where are you getting this information? Sounds insider to me.
The fact is you have no idea of the balance sheet.
 
With the confirmation of hundreds of thousands of players and the recent downsizing to  better alight the team with the audience, I'd say things are fine - and they intend to serve the audience that enjoys the game, not try to chase down those who don't. 
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{| class="blockquote"
If that is the case then we should expect further server merges to better server the niche audience that they would then seem to be courting. 
 
PVP and Dungeon queues are not popping at any level. 
 
Yes they are.  I pugged some dungeons yesterday.  Silvered even.
 
During prime time playing hours Thayd and Illium are observably low population on population.
 
Illium maybe since Dom is underpopulated, but Thayd is fine on Entity.
 
Players on the PVP servers are unable to find other players in the open world. 
 
PVP is lame.  I think we all know this.  I didn't expect any different from a game with PVP segregated in instances.
 
Outrageously high CREDD prices on Euro servers.
 
EU servers are having more issues than US ones.  I have no idea why.
 
Game tracking services like Twitch TV and Raptr show Wildstar to be far less popular than games that don't claim to have as many players but do have far more streams/viewers/tracked playtime.
 
Yes, I know it's all anecdotal, so there's no need to point that out; but we've seen the exact type of same things in LoToR, DDO, Champions Online, DCUO, TERA, Rift, SWTOR, TSW and a dozen more than I can't be bothered to try to recall all of right now. The population is low by all observable standards.
 
I'm just looking at the present situation and comparing it to precedent. The precedents say that this is a game that is struggling in the population department.
 
 
You keep quoting an unqualified answer given in a written interview that Carbine had in their possession for nearly two weeks before they gave that answer. Hundreds of thousands of active players? How did they come up with that number? When did the get data they use for that answer? Are they using the numbers pulled off the servers yesterday; or are they from last quarter, which are now published and frequently used as a common practice  by many business when discussing the current health of their business. Those follow up questions I just asked are the same ones any reporter worth drawing oxygen would ask if they were able: that's why it was a written interview, so no follow up questions could be asked. Given that player experiences are indicating otherwise, their figure of hundreds of thousands of players is dubious. But you've been told this by a dozen other forumites, so my saying it again makes no difference: you can continue to accept their word at face value while the experiences of your fellow players say otherwise.
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Sly, seriously. Can I build a house for you? Of course, you pay me and I will do it like Carbine is building and handling Wildstar. I am thrilled to see what you do.
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{| class="blockquote"
 
You keep quoting an unqualified answer given in a written interview that Carbine had in their possession for nearly two weeks before they gave that answer. Hundreds of thousands of active players? How did they come up with that number? When did the get data they use for that answer? Are they using the numbers pulled off the servers yesterday; or are they from last quarter, which are now published and frequently used as a common practice  by many business when discussing the current health of their business. Those follow up questions I just asked are the same ones any reporter worth drawing oxygen would ask if they were able: that's why it was a written interview, so no follow up questions could be asked. Given that player experiences are indicating otherwise, their figure of hundreds of thousands of players is dubious. But you've been told this by a dozen other forumites, so my saying it again makes no difference: you can continue to accept their word at face value while the experiences of your fellow players say otherwise.
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{| class="blockquote"
Yes, I know it's all anecdotal, so there's no need to point that out; but we've seen the exact type of same things in LoToR, DDO, Champions Online, DCUO, TERA, Rift, SWTOR, TSW and a dozen more than I can't be bothered to try to recall all of right now. The population is low by all observable standards.
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{| class="blockquote"
You hit the nail on the head. Their dubious answer of "hundreds of thousands" is about as vague as it gets. And that was a while ago as well, my rosters and neighbor lists continue to dwindle. The real numbers I would love to see and will never get to see is how many concurrent users are online actually playing for 30+ minute sessions throughout different time points of the day. As I suspect this number to be very low compared to other MMO's, even niche MMO's.
 
PS: You're better off putting he who shall not be named on forum ignore, save yourself the indigestion of reading word vomit.
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Tera, Rift, SWTOR are incredibly high pop games.
 
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Delay it to put in rune changes, why? Attunement changes, amp/ability point changes, and megaserver coding all we launched after the delay and all had to get patched into their internal build of Drop3; that tells us they're able to do that, willing to do that, and clearly QA was up to the task of properly testing the changes to the live build for those changes in a fairly short period of time.
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So was this game once. The reason people use them as comparisons is they had similar high number on release surges with huge population declines. The difference is those games recovered (under a newer business model) whereas this game has not yet recovered and as evidenced by the name of this thread some speculate may never recover in a similar fashion as the the competing MMO's you listed above.
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TERA was never a high pop game.  SWTOR was, and Rift was somewhere in between.  Wildstar was always closer to TERA than SWTOR.
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			Eclips reminds me very strongly of a former poster on here named Lovecraft_Jones.	
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Well last info about them was making it into the top 10 most profitable MMOs and having over 2 million players.
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Now maybe.  Not before the switch (for all 3).  I can believe it's profitable, but I don't believe it has 2 million paying players.
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Because the rune changes were a lot more complicated than what you are talking about? And as I've said before, they were probably developed on a code branch that expected the Drop 3 content to already be in place.
 
 
 
 
Far too simplistic. Not all changes require a full regression test. When you have two changes that will require that kind of testing, lumping them together can indeed make it easier on QA so they don't perform back-to-back regression tests. Not saying that's what happened here, but that saying "large patches are more difficult" is simply too generalized.
 
 
 
The simplest answer is that they viewed rune changes as having a high enough priority that they need to be implemented as fast as possible, and this was the way to make it happen.
 
Again, I think it was highly likely that the development already done on the rune changes before they decided to pull it in was done with the assumption that Drop 3 was in place. If that's true, then their decision makes perfect sense.
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That version of Drop 3 was finished and yanked literally just days before going live.
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TERA was never a high pop game.  SWTOR was, and Rift was somewhere in between.  Wildstar was always closer to TERA than SWTOR.
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{| class="blockquote"
Are you sure about this?
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How do you know that it was a quality drop up to the standards that the community was demanding?
 
The whole point was that Carbine was listening to feedback and changing course based on what they heard. Drop 2 had critical issues in it. Should we assume that Drop 3 was in a releasable state as of August?	
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Yes, by software development standards. Drop 3 was expected to be showcased a PAX Prime and then go live within a couple days. That means it was roughly one business week and one or two additional business day (so 7 business days max) between the announcement to pull it and the expected live date; announcement to yank it was August 22, PAX Prime being Aug 29-Sept 1, that makes probable live date was Sept 3 or 4. The long weekend in there extends the dates making it seem longer than it was in business days.
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{| class="blockquote"
How do you know that it was a quality drop up to the standards that the community was demanding?
 
The whole point was that Carbine was listening to feedback and changing course based on what they heard. Drop 2 had critical issues in it. Should we assume that Drop 3 was in a releasable state as of August?
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{| class="blockquote"
Actually, I'm all for keeping it as it is for the 1%. Just as soon as they can pay for it.
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{| class="blockquote"
I have every right to lobby for what I want the game to be just like you do.
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{| class="blockquote"
Oh, you definitely have that right. It's just a foolish waste of time to pay $15 a month while you try to convince them of changing core design principles, which they aren't going to do.
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I don't think the game was ever aimed at only the 1%. The raiding was, but there's more to this game than raiding.
 
It launched with content for everyone, and everyone wants more content. That's great, but it take time to develop content.	
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			I completely reconsidered (really). The game will not die that soon and stay for a long time. Had a very interesting talk with somebody. I am pretty much just looking forward for the upcoming changes. (Sly is not the reason)	
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{| class="blockquote"
You know, that whole changing of what are apparently core design principles. You ought to read that interview some time: if you don't apply a single ounce of critical thought to anything they're saying, it's all good stuff for absolutely everyone.
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{| class="blockquote"
(Sly is not the reason)
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{| class="blockquote"
As I've said before, I think they always intended for people to be able to play without raiding. The crafting is evident of that. Their execution didn't work out though. I'm glad they are making changes to fix that.
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{| class="blockquote"
I know. I was having some fun at the expense of selective reading.
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{| class="blockquote"
I don't think the game was ever aimed at only the 1%. The raiding was, but there's more to this game than raiding.
 
It launched with content for everyone, and everyone wants more content. That's great, but it take time to develop content.
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Awwww :(
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{| class="blockquote"
I don't think the game was ever aimed at only the 1%. The raiding was, but there's more to this game than raiding.
 
It launched with content for everyone, and everyone wants more content. That's great, but it take time to develop content.
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			I'm not getting any more optimistic as the days goes by sadly. At this point I'd even welcome F2P, which speaks volume considering how some of my earlier posts strictly speaks against F2P. 	
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			Heads up.. or take a break and come back after drop 3 hit the servers... or leave until drop 4... 	
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{| class="blockquote"
I don't think the game was ever aimed at only the 1%. The raiding was, but there's more to this game than raiding.
 
It launched with content for everyone, and everyone wants more content. That's great, but it take time to develop content.
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{| class="blockquote"
Actually as a HC solo player, CONTENT isn't the end and be all for me as a player. I have played many a games over and over and over again because they were fun and enjoyable, but shock horror, no new content. So Why did I keep playing? Anyways, my last day of activity before the forum lights are cut off and I really, really wanted to add this about new content. It's ok, but I don't expect it. I don't constantly wait for new zones, I grind old zones, everything b/c it was fun. the promise of new content or actually new content couldn't keep me around while paying to play. There is a massive over focus on new content. You hear that dudes, I wanted some kind progress, some kind of reward. After all the merry go round of the feedback loop is hardly wrong.
 
PS i kept playing/enjoying the NW and CB long after hitting the 32000 rep, same a R12. I had just hit cap there too, but planned on going back everyday, b/c (1) I enjoyed the event and (2) sweet folks were grouping together for some team sport. As a solo dude, these events, R12 and Tree kept me part of the community. it was not the end of world if I died or didn't show up. Hardly anybody new my name. We all knew what to do, no event ending bugs like Hellrose.... still never got to do it without bugging. Insert 15/16 special seedlings :)
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Cheers dude, thanks for giving me another excuse to log on.
 
See I am a noob here, 1st mmo, so i come baring fresh eyes and am 100% free from groupthink troubles that liked minded people can cause. Ps I am well educated as well in all the things that don't make money (philosophy anyone) but do suffer some slight dyslexia (apologies for readers and their like). I can still rip out an old copy of SQ3 from serria (if you don't know who Roger is, go learn and see the origin of the Caretaker from WS, That voice over, so much alike) So why is it I can still rip out SQ3 or even Pacman, which has not see new content longer then some forum folks have been alive, reward feedback loop. Its Neuroscience dudes, nothing new, pretty simple, even the good old cancer sticks (smokes) play the reward game, that's why I kept playing 'kill myself slowly" for so many years (1.5 years smoke free now)
 
 
{| class="blockquote"
In defense of those who don't like dailies though, I have to say the ones in this game so far are particularly uninspired.
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I was around open beta and you would be surprised at how similar this line of discussion is to many topics back then. It always turns into an x vs. y argument when it doesn't have to.
 
For the game to survive, there can not be a separation between solo or casual vs. group or raid, pvp vs. pve.  This must evolve into one community that bolsters each other and not into a squabbling match as to who deserves what and when. Unfortunately for Wildstar (and many other, if not all games) it has always been the latter.
 
I see a lot of arguments about how adding solo content, or non raid progression is asking for something that the game is not, when The devs have already stated this is not the case. Seems most folks play the game for the sake of progression, and so it is logical to provide ALL your player base with paths that lead to constant progression. So that leads us to the second layer of the argument...
 
The "my play style deserves better and bigger rewards than your play style" argument.
 
I don't know how many times I have seen raiders, in this game and in most others vehemently oppose the acquisition of raid level gear outside of the raid environment. Their main argument seems to be that why should someone who solo's be able to get gear on par with mine, when soloing is so easy, and takes no thought or commitment. Why should I spend 40 hours in a raid to analyze, strategize, and then flawlessly execute in order to down a raid boss, and some yahoo can just earn 10,000 boogie boogie coins and get relatively the same thing. 
 
Seems to be quite a solid argument if the only reason you play is to get good gear. So what reasons do people raid for? I mean in all honesty. ( in no particular order)
 
1. Sense of accomplishment.
2. Competition with other guilds.
3. Camaraderie.
4. Progression.
5. Gear.
6. FUN!
 
I am sure the list is bigger ,because of the diversity of people, and I have not included some of the troll reasons, because they don't really apply to any serious raider. (the one troll reason that just irritates me when solo/casual people throw it around is the "You just want to parade around in your gear and feel all superior to other people"....hogwash) But lets just pretend those are the main reasons.
 
If you think about it,  a casual/solo player has pretty much the same reasons as to why they play the game. So wouldn't it be possible to make single player / group content that is on par with raid difficulty? Most raiders will answer a resounding no , because it takes coordination, and that is what makes it difficult. This is true until they learn the fight. I raided in quite a few mmo's and the hard part to beating any boss is the initial kill. Once you have a sound strat, it's Farmville until the next boss. Eventually any set of raiders begin to work as one, and that brings the difficulty waaaay down. A good guild may have to analyze parse data, and whatever other data they collect over the course of a few tries in order to get a sound strat, and then the next few (or many depending on the quality of your raiders) attempts are about execution. Once the raiders are trained in the execution of a strat , it's game over for that boss. ( as a disclaimer, I know carbine has gone in and changed stages of boss fights to make them harder after they have been beaten, but this happens in every mmo, and is not the norm for most raid content)
 
 
 
What I am trying to get at here, and failing because I keep wandering off, is that as a community we shouldn't really be concerned about who gets what and how. Our main concern should be the health of the mmo we choose to play, and that must include all play styles equally.
 
Im leveling a character guys, and I am not seeing other people, and this should be a serious concern to everyone.
			
				
	Edited November 5, 2014 by Xtorma	
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{| class="blockquote"
Im leveling a character guys, and I am not seeing other people, and this should be a serious concern to everyone.
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			I don't understand what you mean. Sorry.	
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{| class="blockquote"
I don't understand what you mean. Sorry.
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			My concern was because of the age of the game. Perhaps you are correct and there is not a population problem. I apologize. I will continue leveling up solo.	
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			I personally don't care if purple gear is available from solo content, so long as the difficulty is representative of raid content (which is difficult to implement properly due to class balance).  Unfortunately, then the casuals complain that the content is too hard for them to do, and we have the same damn problem as people that complain about raiding.	
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There are guilds that can't do the raid content also, but I understand your point. I think they should just toss it out there, and that way the door for that discussion gets shut. They can come to the forums and scream about how they can't beat the solo boss for the good gear, but that would not be a design problem as long as it was possible.
 
As for the classes, you would really just need instances that were class specific. A lot of work , I know, but feasible I think. I don't really want to change the game though. what it is,  is what it is. Was mostly just thinking out loud, and trying to stress how important it is for the community to be a little more cohesive.
 
when I was playing eq2, my guild used to do one set of raids a week, where we split out core raiders up into two groups and invited solo players to come with us to experience the raid dungeons they would have normally never got to see. We were so far along in our progression, that bringing 12 untried, under geared, and unknowledgeable people into a t-1 raid was a piece of cake for us, and it was fun to listen to them on vent, and how excited they were to be facing down mobs they had never been able to see before. For some of those people, that was the highlight of their week, and when a good drop happened and we told them to roll on it, it was like kids at Christmas.	
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			I really hope they make their solo instance content similar to Rift's Chronicles in execution, for one or two people. I'd hazard a guess that people who duo are just as common (or at least nearly so) as people who play by themselves. I really dislike forced solo instances splitting me up from my SO while we're playing,	
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Naunet,
 
I see no reason why not , if they go as far as to create solo instances, they could tune them up according to the amount of players. Not a programmer though, so I don't know how difficult that would be. From the look of things though, this would be a long time in coming , if it ever did get implemented.	
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{| class="blockquote"
I really hope they make their solo instance content similar to Rift's Chronicles in execution, for one or two people. I'd hazard a guess that people who duo are just as common (or at least nearly so) as people who play by themselves. I really dislike forced solo instances splitting me up from my SO while we're playing,
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Naunet,
 
I see no reason why not , if they go as far as to create solo instances, they could tune them up according to the amount of players. Not a programmer though, so I don't know how difficult that would be. From the look of things though, this would be a long time in coming , if it ever did get implemented.
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{| class="blockquote"
Naunet,
 
I see no reason why not , if they go as far as to create solo instances, they could tune them up according to the amount of players. Not a programmer though, so I don't know how difficult that would be. From the look of things though, this would be a long time in coming , if it ever did get implemented.
----
			Development is focusing on solo instances now? I thought there was enough with challenges, housing and shiphands... The only thing for W* brings to the table other MMOs don't is intense action based combat mechanics that are not superior to console RPGs for me. Scale them to party size and put em in the group finder, I can't really comprehend the direction reasons behind solo MMO content.. But I don't like the sound of it, unless they're adding joypad support that's fun and not a knock off like binding with xpadder.   	
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			They have already been planning this "solo instance" for a while Panther, it was and is intended as part of the Defile content, so they're not adding anything new here, it's content that there was already time allotted for.	
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{| class="blockquote"
I quite love the solo instances, especially the whole lore story stuff, like with Drusera.
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{| class="blockquote"
I'm not saying get rid of solo stuff. But stop forcing people into solo situations; allow up to parties of 2 in there, and maybe scale up the mobs a bit to make up for it.
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