147827-petition-to-torture-dungeon-afkers

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			Can't you just vote kick them?	
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			There's a recurring problem with dungeons is that when I join randomly, and the dungeon we get isn't one of the easy ones, I see a lot of people spamming the vote disband button, and when it fails cause everybody else wants to do this, then they just stand there afking and spamming the vote button instead of leaving. Can we implement capital punishment for these kind of ppl pretty please?	
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While I am not a dungeoneer, I find your proposition to be highly amusing.
 
I support this.	
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Can't you just vote kick them?
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			Why would you want to play with these type of people in the first place?	
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While that happening is certainly not ideal, I don't think we here will officially support torture...
 
We are brainstorming some ideas for dungeons in general though so this kind of feedback (minus the torture) is great to have.
 
Thank you,
 
-Team WildStar	
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Why would you want to play with these type of people in the first place?
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Well, you CAN, but that's exactly what they want - to leave a dungeon w/o the 15 min penalty.
 
I once got a guy who wouldn't even ATTEMPT to do SC because "the dps here sucks".  Funny thing is, we could have rolled the place if he put in his own DPS.  He kept telling us to kick him since he didn't want the debuff.
 
What we did?  Let him sit ther complaining for 25 mins till we kicked him and finally disbanded.  Personally that's the only way to really torture them - have them wait even longer than just leaving.
 
Can't really think of a way that would penalize players without having negative effects.  Putting a debuff on kicked players would hurt newbies who are getting kicked by elitist groups, and having hurt people who AFK could hurt people who are legit just AFKing while their friends go ahead.
 
Maybe if you vote kick someone who hasn't done damage/healing within a certain timeframe it puts a debuff on them? 
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			Make it so you can't kick some one for the first 15 minutes of the dungeon unless the player is offline and then have a 5 minute cap on them, so they now have the choice leave and lose 15 minutes of their time, or wait it out and lose 15 minutes of their time.	
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While that happening is certainly not ideal, I don't think we here will officially support torture...
 
We are brainstorming some ideas for dungeons in general though so this kind of feedback (minus the torture) is great to have.
 
Thank you,
 
-Team WildStar
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While that happening is certainly not ideal, I don't think we here will officially support torture...
 
We are brainstorming some ideas for dungeons in general though so this kind of feedback (minus the torture) is great to have.
 
Thank you,
 
-Team WildStar
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What about "enhanced interrogation," that's not really torture right?
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...I don't think we here will officially support torture...
 
-Team WildStar
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Well...when you put it like that...
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			afk for 2mins in a dungeon apply corrosive debuff that starts decreasing with the durability of the their gear. hit the afkers where it hurts the gold pile	
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if someone wants a kick and is reacting childish just kick him and be happy he is not in your group.
 
oh wait, can we vote kick people now in the first 10 minutes of a dungeon?... before we could not.	
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Something is needed, for sure. I bet there are a lot of people that do not want to support the negative attitude being seen in dungeons. Act like an ass, so you can get kicked and can instantly queue again instead of waiting for 15min because you left. They are really getting away with it as well. I've seen people tabbing out to play other games until they get kicked, or the old "My guild needs me". Yeah, right, 03 in the morning. I'm sure they do..
Out of the 6 dungeons you can queue for, only 3 are dungeons people seem to do. Stormtalon, Kel-Voreth and sometimes Skullcano. People do not want to do the other 3, because they are harder, takes more time, require more effort, etc. It's especially people that Could do them that complain. People that do have experience and gear.
 
 
There's another thing with it all as well, and I'm looking into it a bit further. Glory farm. So far, I must admit that Swordmaiden look really good as a candidate in my excel document when it comes to farm some glory and Stormtalon hardly worth it unless you do it fast enough or at least get it as random. Hopefully the numbers will prove that it's worth to spend that "extra time" and do it proper, than just spamming a simple Stormtalon and skip everything, even easy challenges.
 
But back to the point. Asshats should not rule the queues and ruin the good fun for others. If you queue for a random, be prepared to do a random, not just half of them. I wish a 15min debuff could be placed on kicked people as well, or kicked people that been reported. But I believe Ignored people will never show up in your group, which is an alternative for the future.	
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			lol	
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if someone wants a kick and is reacting childish just kick him and be happy he is not in your group.
 
oh wait, can we vote kick people now in the first 10 minutes of a dungeon?... before we could not.
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Vote kicking rarely works out unless everyone else agrees.  All it takes is that one person to keep declining and the entire group has to deal with the toxicity.
I miss the days when queueing as leader was a thing and when you got leader you were able to kick people without having to vote on it.
It is difficult to lead a dungeon when everything has to be voted on, the queues that randomly assign leader without rhyme or reason is just one of the issues.
 
Can we just have an option to NOT select people from Warhound?
That's all I ask.  Out of all the random dungeon queues I've done, the most toxic trash I've had to deal with were from Warhound (and exclusively from Warhound) EVERY TIME.
Different people, over several runs during this past week, but all jerks from Warhound.
 
Then they wonder why their server isn't popular.  :P
For those that want to avoid the pain of dealing with that, just a simple checkbox for 'exclude cross-realm queues'.  That's all.
 
I'm heavily debating doing call-outs and such with screenshots, but Carbine frowns on that because reasons, so *shrug*.
 
When someone starts bragging about how much DPS they do in the level 10 scaled ProtoStar Academy (while they're in Support spec despite queueing as DPS for some reason?) and I paste the damage meter into chat just for lulz to disprove them?  All this AND they're from Warhound?  That is comedy gold there.  :)
 
I'm debating rolling a Dominion stalker on Warhound exclusively to terrorize these specific sour cupcakes.  Debating it heavily here, heh.
 
Dealing with all this crap leads to people sticking exclusively to friends/guildies and avoiding the queues altogether.  It then just means queues become a festering ground for bile and worse.  Kinda defeats the purpose of them in many ways.
			
				
	Edited December 6, 2015 by FantasticCupcake	
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Vote kicking rarely works out unless everyone else agrees.  All it takes is that one person to keep declining and the entire group has to deal with the toxicity.
I miss the days when queueing as leader was a thing and when you got leader you were able to kick people without having to vote on it.
It is difficult to lead a dungeon when everything has to be voted on, the queues that randomly assign leader without rhyme or reason is just one of the issues.
 
Can we just have an option to NOT select people from Warhound?
That's all I ask.  Out of all the random dungeon queues I've done, the most toxic trash I've had to deal with were from Warhound (and exclusively from Warhound) EVERY TIME.
Different people, over several runs during this past week, but all jerks from Warhound.
 
Then they wonder why their server isn't popular.  :P
For those that want to avoid the pain of dealing with that, just a simple checkbox for 'exclude cross-realm queues'.  That's all.
 
I'm heavily debating doing call-outs and such with screenshots, but Carbine frowns on that because reasons, so *shrug*.
 
When someone starts bragging about how much DPS they do in the level 10 scaled ProtoStar Academy (while they're in Support spec despite queueing as DPS for some reason?) and I paste the damage meter into chat just for lulz to disprove them?  All this AND they're from Warhound?  That is comedy gold there.  :)
 
I'm debating rolling a Dominion stalker on Warhound exclusively to terrorize these specific sour cupcakes.  Debating it heavily here, heh.
 
Dealing with all this crap leads to people sticking exclusively to friends/guildies and avoiding the queues altogether.  It then just means queues become a festering ground for bile and worse.  Kinda defeats the purpose of them in many ways.
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I completely agree that something needs to be done about people who start trolling/afk if the group doesn't disband when they want, but I also understand why people don't want to do certain dungeons.  Both Protostar dungeons are a pain to do unless everyone has already done it and/or is on voice com, if I have a group that doesn't want to disband I just tell them I'll give them a few pulls then please disband.  If they still don't want to I leave since I know from experience that staying would mean an hour to 2 hour commitment where we may not even finish, and after I explain that pretty much every group does disband.
 
I guess what the problem boils down to is that half of the dungeons really aren't worth the headache for people who are raid geared.  A few days ago against my initial instinct I helped 3 people who had recently hit 50 through vet SSM.  It took almost 2 hours (most of which was spent on the fire *cupcake*), so if I had disbanded or even just left I could have gotten probably 4-5 times the glory in that amount of time.  What made the whole thing worth it though was that 2 of the players whispered me afterward thanking me for helping and being patient with them.
 
I think a positive rewards to encourage veteran players to help new and/or lower geared players would work better than making stronger penalties, because I guarantee that increasing penalties would just make most of these players stop doing solo queuing altogether and just use guild mates or circles.  I know some in this thread wouldn't mind the 2nd option, but I don't know of anyone who complained about having a raid-geared dps in their group that basically halved the time a dungeon took :P
			
				
	Edited December 6, 2015 by Cazakatari	
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Just a couple of quick ideas that might help make dungeons a more enjoyable experience all around and alleviate most of the dungeon bailing issues (not fully fleshed out, drawing board notes):
 
1. Introduce Dungeon Mentoring and give players massive rewards for successfully teaching new players to complete a specific dungeon. Adding a "Need a Mentor" and "I Volunteer to Mentor" to the dungeon finder sort of thing.
 
2. Attach more rewards to the least played dungeons, and base glory earned per objective completed etc. making it more desirable for the purposes of glory farming to complete more of the dungeon, not skip everything but the mandatory bosses.	
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I guess what the problem boils down to is that half of the dungeons really aren't worth the headache for people who are raid geared.  
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Then the solution is simple. If you don't want to do a random dungeon, don't queue for a random dungeon.
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Glory bags.
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			Would probably be an unpopular suggestion, but one thing they could do is make it so when doing "Random Dungeons", if you do not for whatever reason complete the first dungeon you get into, you get locked out of the "Random" tab for uh, 3 hours or something? Just a thought	
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Nope, I'm with yasfan on this one. If you don't have the patience/skill/decency to give it a whirl, then don't queue random.
 
I don't mind a full premade disbanding for something they don't feel like, but if you're pulling a random player from queue, it's not cool to disband because they now are sent to the back.
 
A glory bag is not worth it to mistreat a fellow human being.
 
(Yes, I've done it before, and yes it was wrong. I now do not queue random unless I'm with a full premade or unless I am willing to give t a reasonable shot).
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Would probably be an unpopular suggestion, but one thing they could do is make it so when doing "Random Dungeons", if you do not for whatever reason complete the first dungeon you get into, you get locked out of the "Random" tab for uh, 3 hours or something? Just a thought
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If I'm by myself and rando into UPG and the group wants to do it, I'm fine to give it a try (until we wipe on the first boss and then people will disband lol).
 
But if people want to disband UPG because its a full pug group, I don't blame them at all. Very little people know how to do any of the mechanics, so it often will lead to a long time of wiping.
 
Maybe I'm confused on the argument here.
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Well that would really f-up people if you do get a group - regardless of dungeon, that just CAN'T complete it. I've been in STLs where we physically didn't have enough dps (if they stayed alive) to kill the final boss. Or a host of other problems that could hinder completing a run.
 
honestly though incentivizing the worse dungeons, or having a mentor program would be great. I would love to have some people Q up for UPG that I can teach about it (it's one of my fav places, but people just don't know how to do it/dont wait for an explanation)
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			Well the high timer would only be on the random box tick, in my mind. With specific dungeons always being available if you cannot complete them/disband or leave/get kicked. 15 minutes would I feel, not make a single difference	
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15 minute (that would start the minute the queue pops) would give people some incentive to see how the group is going to go.
 
3 hours for not being able to complete the dungeon means the game becomes more punishing.	
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The punishment in question would not in any way be aimed towards the dungeons themselves though. Only towards that minor "icing" reward you get from random dungeons.
 
And it might just be my old and a bit abnormal way of thinking, but should not the little increased rewards from ticking that "Random" box, come at more risk/punishment if failed? Y'know, that whole "Risk vs Reward" thing.	
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I've only done the Level 10 scaled version of ProtoStar Academy so far.
What are the differences between the lower-level version and the scaled version?
Are they significantly different enough to warrant all this craziness?  O_o
 
After reading through some of these responses, a carrot would work better than a stick.  Maybe a bit of both?  :)
Increased rewards for more difficult dungeons (I'm sure Carbine has 'average time to complete' data on all of them) to entice people to do them.
And a vote disband should give you the deserter debuff (or a modified one) that prevents you from queueing randomly again for X time.  I'd say an hour or two hours is a suitable time.
Making it 15 minutes wouldn't prohibit the behavior at all.  They'd see it as 'X time saved oh well gonna go eat something'.  A slap on the wrist at worst.
Now if it keeps you from getting those delicious glory bags for 1+ hours then we may see people at least giving it an attempt.
 
If you're gonna get rewarded for RNG matching, then there have to be suboptimal pairings at least sometimes.  That's why you get the rewards.  You take your lot or you go do something else.  It isn't meant to be EASY.  If it were easy or just let people exclude certain dungeons then it would trivialize the rewards altogether and make them meaningless.
 
My primary concern about all this is that newer players hop in queue, have a terrible experience, and then leave the game.  This isn't good for business or for the game itself.
For even the worst people in the game, I'd rather they not (permanently) leave, but instead realize that their hate and bile is not tolerated by anyone.
Reporting the toxic cupcakes in queue (every time they do it) should result in someone at Carbine/NcSoft noticing and doing something about it.
 
Employee1: So this one person 'Arty McToxic' has been reported 200 times over the past week; shouldn't we just temp-ban them or something?
Employee2: But they give us money!  We need the money!
Employee1: At the expense of those 200+ people that reported?  That seems absurd.
Employee2: But money!
Employee1: Look we'll just temp-ban this 'McToxic' person and see if they behave
Employee2: But they spent $300+ in the cash shop we can't lose that future revenue!
Employee1: The revenue from those 200+ people will likely be more.  We shouldn't cater to a few just because they spend money; that'll lead to the same crap we dealt with last year with empty servers and few players.  Even these whales will end up leaving if the population goes down.
Employee2: Less money?  Oh ok go ahead and do it.
 
^Even the greediest hyperbolic fictional employee can see the value of proper enforcement in the game.
 
So if you get players that are hostile/toxic in your party/instance chat, then /report and move on.
Oh and if they refuse to do a dungeon or mess with your group by not leaving on their own and demanding to be kicked, that is still a violation of the ToS.
Just /report those players and move on with the dungeon as best you can.
 
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The punishment in question would not in any way be aimed towards the dungeons themselves though. Only towards that minor "icing" reward you get from random dungeons.
 
And it might just be my old and a bit abnormal way of thinking, but should not the little increased rewards from ticking that "Random" box, come at more risk/punishment if failed? Y'know, that whole "Risk vs Reward" thing.
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So if you get players that are hostile/toxic in your party chat, then /report and move on.
Oh and if they refuse to do a dungeon or mess with your group by not leaving on their own and demanding to be kicked, that is still a violation of the ToS.
Just /report those players and move on with the dungeon as best you can.
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Brainstorming here:
 
If person leaves dungeon - give 15 min penalty (this is how it is now)
If person does not provide above treshold DPS or HEALING during preset time, auto kick him with 15 min penalty (this will be to punish AFKers)
If person votes disband continuosly (you decide how many clicks in how much time), auto kick him with 15 min penalty (this will be to punish vote abusers)
 
So the only way to break party up without penalty will be if all party wants this and vote passes in first 2-3 attempts (legit voting).	
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Then the solution is simple. If you don't want to do a random dungeon, don't queue for a random dungeon.
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Yes.  Protostar academy is supposed to be the "training" vet dungeon, yet it is harder than even SSM (I have better success with inexperienced groups there than academy).  It is both a gear check and a heavy mechanics check.  If a group is weak in either gear or mechanics, they will wipe for hours, then probably not even be able to beat the final boss (because of the heavy damage and dps race at the end).  On the flip side, the "regular" vet dungeons, including SSM, at their worst are mechanics heavy, but the only gear check fight I know of is the slavemaster in KV (And that is mostly on the healer).  
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Going to chime in again with my Agreement of FantasticCupcake. Do not underestimate people's fanaticism towards taking the easy road. 15 minutes, or anything under 1 hour most likely, will just end up with the same results: The people that leave/disband on dungeons like Protostar, will still do it.
 
People that tick that random box, and are not willing to do the very first dungeon that they get into, do not deserve to get the extra rewards. That is my opinion.	
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Gotta agree with a lot of those saying there's just not a harsh enough penalty. The core problem is that there's no weight to random queuing for a Vet Dungeon, it's just a toss away thing for many and it's presented that way from the start. You can be doing whatever, anywhere in the world. Then one pops, you don't like it? Just leave and queue again from anywhere in the world at any time. Yeah, the debuff is supposed to deter that behavior, but it's really not enough. There's no real detractor that exists to make one pause and think before just leaving the group if they don't like the random Dungeon that appears. Many games used to use travel as a deterrent, but in WS, you don't have to travel to it, even if you did there's so much fast travel around Nexus it wouldn't matter at this point anyway, (WS: Teleport Edition).
 
It's a tricky situation to fix, people will complain no matter what changes are made.
			
				
	Edited December 6, 2015 by Kitsune Hazard	
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Protostar academy is much more than stay out of the red and interrupt.  All the fights are completely different from lvl 10 (and there's more of them), you'll just have to go in there yourself or watch videos to see.  Almost every boss in there is at least as complex and punishing as the final boss of the other dungeons.
 
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Going to chime in again with my Agreement of FantasticCupcake. Do not underestimate people's fanaticism towards taking the easy road. 15 minutes, or anything under 1 hour most likely, will just end up with the same results: The people that leave/disband on dungeons like Protostar, will still do it.
 
People that tick that random box, and are not willing to do the very first dungeon that they get into, do not deserve to get the extra rewards. That is my opinion.
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The dilemma that geared people/raiders have is that they need A LOT of glory to accomplish anything they want.  Let me just explain my situation, pure rune bags cost 300 glory each (about 2 random dungeon runs), and I'm LUCKY if 1 out of 10 drops a major rune set focus (which is what I need).  Optimistically that means roughly 3,000 glory to achieve my goal, so I need to run about 20 random dungeons for a CHANCE at some kind of upgrade.  I'm not asking for pity, I'm just trying to help people understand WHY some act the way they do.
 
All I'm saying is that we need to give veteran players incentives to do dungeons so they can help/teach/mingle with the newer players, but if you only put in draconian punishments like this they'll probably stop solo-queuing altogether.  If that's what you want, fine, but I don't think new players will like the experience they'll get with entire groups that are only about ilvl 70.  Every dungeon will end up taking hours, then they may not even have the skill to complete it anyway.
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One bit of the problem right now that I think others also feel, is the fact that the extra reward for doing "random" dungeons right now is outright just a complete handout. No extra risk whatsoever for extra rewards. That kinda goes against a lot of what Carbine tells us about the game or it's "spirit"(maybe?).
 
It'd be fine if they could, I dunno, put in some sort of speed-thing for super geared raid guys for extra glory (Challenge mode-esque stuff maybe? With extra short timers?) but having a no-risk high-reward system for the dungeons is not a right way to go.	
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One bit of the problem right now that I think others also feel, is the fact that the extra reward for doing "random" dungeons right now is outright just a complete handout. No extra risk whatsoever for extra rewards. That kinda goes against a lot of what Carbine tells us about the game or it's "spirit"(maybe?).
 
It'd be fine if they could, I dunno, put in some sort of speed-thing for super geared raid guys for extra glory (Challenge mode-esque stuff maybe? With extra short timers?) but having a no-risk high-reward system for the dungeons is not a right way to go.
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Folks are putting a lot of effort into forcing people who don't want to play with you to do so anyway. No punishments are going to help the game other than a slap on the wrist that keeps honest people honest.
 
As for the random rewards being bad- before they were in the game STL was the only queue that ever popped.
 
Academy bosses are not harder than the other bosses. Most of them are easier. The only challenging ones are the first one and the one with the robots running around. The first one because you have to jump over moving lasers and the robot one because there is a lot of damage to heal. Each boss has one "trick" that is pretty easy to get down. The problem is that most peolle haven't bothered to learn them.
 
Upping the glory rewards for both of the protostar dungeons would probably resolve most of the issues in this thread.	
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The dilemma that geared people/raiders have is that they need A LOT of glory to accomplish anything they want.  Let me just explain my situation, pure rune bags cost 300 glory each (about 2 random dungeon runs), and I'm LUCKY if 1 out of 10 drops a major rune set focus (which is what I need).  Optimistically that means roughly 3,000 glory to achieve my goal, so I need to run about 20 random dungeons for a CHANCE at some kind of upgrade.  I'm not asking for pity, I'm just trying to help people understand WHY some act the way they do.
 
All I'm saying is that we need to give veteran players incentives to do dungeons so they can help/teach/mingle with the newer players, but if you only put in draconian punishments like this they'll probably stop solo-queuing altogether.  If that's what you want, fine, but I don't think new players will like the experience they'll get with entire groups that are only about ilvl 70.  Every dungeon will end up taking hours, then they may not even have the skill to complete it anyway.
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This 'dilemma' makes me laugh.  So treating other humans like dirt just because YOU feel you need something is ok?
No, no it isn't.  It is never ok.  Please leave the random queues and do not return if you are going to treat people like dirt.  I would rather the newbies queue with other newbies and learn stuff instead (without the full-tilt speedrunning jerks).
 
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			I've pugged UPG many times without voice, with new people, and without overgearing, and still had loads of fun. I think it gets a bad rap. I also thibg people underestimate pugs.	
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So I took advice on actually watching a video of Ultimate ProtoStar Games.
This isn't a pickup group (PUG) & play type of dungeon, I get that.
 
I couldn't stop laughing though; it looks like a ton of fun!
 
So the TLDR for the entire dungeon is basically:
-Avoid the red telegraphs as best you can
-Pay attention to your surroundings
-Learn how to dodge and jump over red telegraphs in the corridor and certain boss fights
-Play some FOOTBALLLLLLL!  WHOO!  I wouldn't even mind wiping a few times to learn about it
 
I feel that there's nothing about ProtoStar that makes it difficult or especially time-consuming; where the hell are the complaints coming from?  Is it excessive latency inside or something?
It does require a level of coordination & cooperation that generally isn't found in PUGs
 
I still stand by my original statement.  If you jump into the random queue then you may have to do this with a group of newbies.  If that is too much to deal with then stay out of the random queue or sit in time-out for an hour (or longer).  It really should be an hour as the 15 minute debuff is far too little.
You took the risk and rolled a 1; time to deal with the consequences.  If the gamble is not suitable then take the hit and better luck next time.
 
Yeah it sucks.  Risks lead to hardship and often failure.  That is why it is a risk and SHOULD be a bigger risk to jump into 'random' queues.  The rewards should offset that risk moreso for ProtoStar IMHO but only if the time-out is at least an hour or more for ditching/disbanding.
 
Perhaps the biggest reason for avoiding isn't necessarily the perceived difficulty but that the extensive platforming and challenges require a better server with lower latency than what Carbine & NCSoft have been providing us.  This is one of those dungeons that can basically kill you if you suffer a lag spike at the wrong time (like the video maker).
			
				
	Edited December 6, 2015 by FantasticCupcake	
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UPG is really fun, imo. But it does require a lot of active attention, unlike other dungeons which are easy to autopilot at a certain gear level.
 
So different dungeons for different moods, at least for me.
 
I usually can convince pugs to give UPG a try. My success level with talking pugs into Academy is 0.	
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This is two edged sword. What if you run into bunch of folks, who decide to kick you for no reason? Or for reasons like doing one mistake, not being good enough/fast enough for their mindset of dungeon progress? Or simply becuase they dont like you?
 
They would still have the same option of capital punishment as you suggest towards those awful people you describe, but this time against normal guys who simply have been unlucky in queue.	
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Okay wow. When I started this forum post I was prepared for a full on flame war, but I see valid and intelligent arguments from both sides of the coin. Hats off to the community.
So okay lets try to come up with a solution that everyone enjoys, cause I think if we manage to solve the underlying problems the majority of the players would be happy. (except the few % of trolls but we cant do anything against them other than ignore)
So the main problem is: some people want to farm glory, cause they either already done the dungeons numerous times and/or just wanna get those over with. (and some just morons but fk those, lets concentrate on the not deliberately moronic ones). Now the dungeons have some variables in terms of difficulty. Some are easy or just ppl done that a lot so they are the beaten path, while others just a hassle.
 
Now the solution needs to appeal to two kind of people: the pro who just wants to do a dungeon for 30-40 min and bam, and the newer players (like me) who don't mind if a dungeon lasts an hour or two cause they haven't done dungeons that extensively, or just don't mind.
 
The first thought would be even out the dungeon difficulties, so whatever dungeon you get, if you can do A dungeon you can do ALL dungeons. Now that's carbine job, so we can expect that either with a new expansion 2.0 and such, where we get a new set of dungeons, or with major tweaks to the original ones.
 
The second would be to increase the reward on the hard dungeons. So for example if you do UPG or random you get 1,5 times the glory than you would with random stormtalon.
Also valid ideas:
 -mentor system. If you know everything and you're willing to spend 2 hours with the greenhorns whipping them into shape (of course only if the newbies aren't total brain dead feral mordesh, but what can ya do) then you really deserve extra glory. In time this would result in more and more skilled dungeoneers and after a critical mass has been reached the study period would be far shorter cause more experienced players mean fewer time it would take for newcommers to become skilled. I would even suggest that mentored players would get more glory for more time spent in dungeons, that would be inscentive to aim for either doing the side quests or to not quit after 2 hours if the group is willing, although I can see how this system could be abused. But lets stay positive
 
- Farm mode. A harder than veteran mode of the most popular dungeons for those who need glory for raid gear. Also you could sell unwanted gear for glory. Example: ilevel 120 group goes through this, and they get a bunch of ilevel 80 gear, that only gives level 80 runecrafting mats. They can take it back to Thayd and sell those, so they get more overall usefull stuff.
 
Notice I didn't mentioned punishments. Thats because lets try methods that AREN'T based on an already outdated educational system. instead of punishing someon for being a pillock, lets give him a medal for not being a pillock. (Yeah yeah this is coming form the guy who suggested torture in the title but hey, the clickbait worked) :D 	
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If everyone wants to disband, no issues. But if 4/5 do and leave that last guy hanging, it's uncool.
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So what i see is in the original post is:
 
Problem - people afk because they don't want to leave a dungeon they don't want to do, and get deserter.
 
So for a quick fix why don't you just add in a kick with deserter to discourage people from afking in the dungeon. people who are kicked with deserter make it so it's a 20min cd for que into pve content, a bit more harsh then just up and leaving. This wont fix problem with vote disband for SSM, UPG, and Proto Academy.
 
Not sure what's people problem with ssm and upg. They aren't hard and don't take much more effort then SC to avoid people just leaving for those increase rewards a bit add more cosmetic items that are boe only from there like new pet or costumes incentivize them.
Protostar Academy though the damage on first boss needs some scaling, I expect this to happen soon though, and the last boss in the ice room needs some changes also other then those 2 bosses the dungeon is really easy, though rewards are really bad.	
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They are adding in rewards for helping newer players through dungeons.
 
I don't think it's possible to even out difficulty, because difficulty is mostly a function of familiarity. Stormatalon (the boss) is easily more difficult than the first boss of Academy, but there's ebough hive knowledge that people can reliably get it down.
 
Still, the answer is the same: offer more rewards for doing the newer cobtebt, or the cobtebt that people don't want to do. Heck, they could even make it "smart" by offering more glory for the dungeons that the community has been running less lately. Too much? Probably. But it's brainstorming, right?
 
And just to be clear, the speed a farm group can clear a dungeon is insane. A normal group of decent player with appropriate gear will clear SC in like 45 minutes. A raid geared group will do it in 15. But anyone random queueinf solo shouldn't be expecting the 15 minute run.	
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What if when people queue for random they get flagged for that dungeon to be the specific one they must complete to obtain the random reward bag until they either complete it OR the server daily reset?
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SO I thought about it over the weekend as I said I would, but I guess it might be dumb...iono...
 
I don't think evening out difficulty is much of the issue with exception to maybe stormtalon(boss) being what I feel the only "wtf gear check" boss I can think of for new groups. Maybe adjusting 
 
What if when people queue for random they get flagged for that dungeon to be the specific one they must complete to obtain the random reward bag until they either complete it OR the server daily reset? I feel this might be nice way to mitigate and or remedy things since it allows a group to disband if things don't work out or replace people, etc...as you normally would without punishing those legitimately stepping down and such, but still require that they meet the requirement of their choice to do random. This may also, much like contracts get people to go "hey I need to do X dungeon for the bag, who else needs it or wants to help?".
 
I feel like if it were set up this way it caters to people who are looking to be fast and efficient, allows flexibility for new players to find new groups if things go sour, but also impose "hey you picked random, deal with it".
 
but who knows, frankly I feel people shouldn't be picking RANDOM if they don't want it to be random in the first place.
 
 
{| class="blockquote"
They are adding in rewards for helping newer players through dungeons.
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What if when people queue for random they get flagged for that dungeon to be the specific one they must complete to obtain the random reward bag until they either complete it OR the server daily reset? 
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This is two edged sword. What if you run into bunch of folks, who decide to kick you for no reason? Or for reasons like doing one mistake, not being good enough/fast enough for their mindset of dungeon progress? Or simply becuase they dont like you?
 
They would still have the same option of capital punishment as you suggest towards those awful people you describe, but this time against normal guys who simply have been unlucky in queue.
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UPG and PA are not very difficult, but there are two bosses that come to mind that will crush pugs.  first boss in pa and bev o rage in upg.  the first boss in pa could use a few less armor shields that need to be broken.  even in a guild group it can get us and can sometimes fall into RNG with orb spawns, especially when dodging lasers.  as the first boss in the dungeon it leaves a bad taste in the pugs mouth and they just insta disband.  
 
for upg it is bev o rage.  if you lose too many people you cannot out dps his shield mechanic and it becomes instant wipe if the RNG gods decide to give you this can during the drink phase.  all other fights are very pug friendly and doable.  if these two fights get tweaked, i think the disbands will stop. 
 
or if they stay more difficult, increase the rewards.  legendary level at the same ilvl for some bonus stats, or make them 1/2 tier higher than regular vets.
 
i ran upg so many times it has become quite trivial.  it is really a fun instance.  pa is fun but the jump from boss to boss is a little silly but that is due to the normal version and how it is laid out.  if there are other issues beyond these two bosses, feel free to chime in.  but i think these two are the culprits.  hell in upg you can just outlive the timers in quite a few rooms and proceed to the next room while even failing the objectives.  the time vs reward is one reason when glory farming we skip these two.  there are simply faster places to farm glory.  with a guild group we can do almost all dungeons in less than 20 save ssm.  but upg and pa take a little longer and dont offer as much glory for it.
			
				
	Edited December 7, 2015 by Foul Wind	
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This is two edged sword. What if you run into bunch of folks, who decide to kick you for no reason? Or for reasons like doing one mistake, not being good enough/fast enough for their mindset of dungeon progress? Or simply becuase they dont like you?
 
They would still have the same option of capital punishment as you suggest towards those awful people you describe, but this time against normal guys who simply have been unlucky in queue.
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			I definitely do not have a basement full of dungeon afkers. I definitely do not.	
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If you have 100% guildies/friends in your group and use the random queue (and specifically select 'random') then do you still get all the glory bag rewards?
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I don't think this is a terrible idea at all, but I would couple it with increased overall glory rewards from UPG and PA (vet). 
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That crap happened to me last night in WoW on my 20 druid healer, the tool of a tank over pulled.... i got stunned by a loose mob so wasn't able to heal the tank who seemed to have gear made out of toilet paper. I got blamed for the wipe and kicked.... had to wait 10-15min before i could reque for a new dungeon.
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While that happening is certainly not ideal, I don't think we here will officially support torture...
 
We are brainstorming some ideas for dungeons in general though so this kind of feedback (minus the torture) is great to have.
 
Thank you,
 
-Team WildStar
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{| class="blockquote"
So my question to you is this.  If you have 100% guildies/friends in your group and use the random queue (and specifically select 'random') then do you still get all the glory bag rewards?  I thought it would only reward you if you did 'random' and were less than a full group (at least one solo person from the queue).
 
If so?  There is absolutely zero excuse for *anyone* who wants a fast run not to just run it with friends/guildies exclusively (or bugger off) rather than mistreating the newbies.
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If you have 100% guildies/friends in your group and use the random queue (and specifically select 'random') then do you still get all the glory bag rewards?
In fact you do.
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Responding to these posts (both of them), let me see if I understand this.
People can make groups with friends & guildies & others that they are cool with, do runs in nice little 5-man groups without ANY randoms and as long as they queue they can do whatever without interfering with other players?
 
And DESPITE that incredibly generous system, there are people STILL insistant on abusing the queue system by bringing randoms into THEIR groups and then treating them like dirt?
 
And then people wonder why the F2P post-hype population dip happened?  Right....
 
People will even tolerate buggy servers but if the random queue people are toxic then it sheds a sour light on the entire experience.
 
I'm completely shaking my head at this.  Just...what the slagging fail!?
 
Maybe if people just keep reporting this jerks, they can take a timeout from queues for a while (or permanently).
 
I do wish Carbine had more fine-tuned ways of punishment like muting someone from speaking in public chats (anything that isn't guild/circle) or a block on someone's account to prohibit them from being able to queue up at all.  Maybe, we can see.
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Whenever people are jerks to me in a video game, I remind myself that I only had to experience their poor attitude for a brief time, and for stakes that are very low (a video game). They have to live with themselves and the results of their attitude for the rest of their lives. I'd rather be me than them, and just move on.
 
No matter what Carbine does, people will be who they are. You can only constrain it so much before the constraints start affecting people they shouldn't. MMOs are about interacting with people, and that means even people who will mistreat you on occasion. Better to learn to handle it then try to prevent it, imo.
			
				
	Edited December 9, 2015 by SlyJeff	
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I'd like a combination of incentives for good behavior along with harsher punishments for bad behavior.
Deliberately abusing people like this should be reported and acted on accordingly.
If people don't want to deal with randoms, make a full group and don't queue along with randoms >_>	
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I am not really one that do many random dungeons, if I do them it's usually with friends, full premade or half yadda yadda.
 
This is one of the big reasons why. The times I do decide I want to tank a random dungeon is usually just loads of time wasted on cheesers just disbanding every dungeon we get in, or throwing hissy fits when it's not disbanded.
 
I wish Carbine would do something about it.
 
(Thought i'd do a semi-bump, so carbine might see this thread, as this is still an "issue")	
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If so?  There is absolutely zero excuse for *anyone* who wants a fast run not to just run it with friends/guildies exclusively (or bugger off) rather than mistreating the newbies.
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			 Ive always been a support of mmos having an auxillary non weapon combat system..boxing grappling.. wwf type stuff lol. Id be cool with forcing them into such a combat where the group just beats the crap out of that person... Some how an aurin body slamming a grannok would just be way to funny... 	
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 Ive always been a support of mmos having an auxillary non weapon combat system..boxing grappling.. wwf type stuff lol. Id be cool with forcing them into such a combat where the group just beats the crap out of that person... Some how an aurin body slamming a grannok would just be way to funny... 
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The fact that this thread has had so much input gives me hope. I am part of the afraid to queue any more population because of getting trashed on for having the audacity to try and do a dungeon I have never been in before. It is a bit discouraging when you get into a group that immediately votes to kick you when you tell them you haven't been in that particular dungeon yet even if you have decent gear.
 
A few pages back there was a suggestion about a way to indicate that you are learning or willing to teach. I would be very happy to tell people ahead of time that I am new to dungeons even if that meant longer queue times. At least then I wouldn't feel so nervous about randoms. I would then be happy to join the willing to teach sector when I was experienced enough to pay it forward for the patience and understanding of those who taught me.
 
And… I have certainly been in other groups where we were all new and trying to learn except for the one person who kept spamming the disband button.  I do like the idea of making them put money in the "d-bag jar" or at least tagging them with an "I'm an elitist dick" sign above their head that they have to run around with for 20 min.	
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I'm just gonna throw out a handful of suggestions real quick.  My appologies if some have been said before; the discussion is a bit long at this point and I just wanna throw in a quick two cents.  ^_^;
 
Kicked players get the deserter debuff penalty
Yes, this will lead to some abuse cases with "elite" groups kicking out a low-level players, it will do away with kicking being a get-out-of-deserter-free card.  And most of the players who would be getting kicked in such a system should recieve such a penalty.
 
Disconnected players get the deserter debuff penalty
Same as above, many toxic players, if unable to convince the party to kick them, will instead disconnect (many to simply play on a different character).  Such a penalty shouldn't be instantly applied, as legitimate reasons for disconnection happen, but a player who does not return to the dungeon should be treated as the deserter they are.
 
Deserter penalty should be longer and persist after logout
The current penalty is current a slap on the wrist, and should probably be brought up a bit.  Also, I don't know if the status is already like this, but it needs to be set such that it only ticks down while that character is logged-in.
 
Instance parties can't instantly disband
Exactly what it says on the tin, there should be some level of time or effort required for a disband vote.  I'm sick of people mashing the "Random Dungeon" button, then instantly disbanding when they get a random dungeon they don't like.  Personal recomendations: 5 minutes on the dungeon timer, party has wiped at least once, at least one player has left or disconnected.
 
Disbanding should disqualify from Random Dungeon bonus
Related to the previous suggestion.  Any member of a Dungeon party who queued "Random Dungeon" and voted "Yes" on a successful disband vote should recive a debuff which prevents them from reciveing the bonus rewards from a Random Dungeon.  The debuff lasts either a long time (persisting after logout, of course), or until they successfully complete a Dungeon.
 
More robust tools for reporting and tracking toxic players
And this would benefit across the board, not just for Dungeons.  See also: League of Legends.
 
Also, slightly unrelated problem, but...
Declining a Content Finder invite should disqualify you from entering Content Finder queues for a short period
Like, a minute or two.  Look, I've been trolled before, and this would be a simple fix for that.	
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{| class="blockquote"
The fact that this thread has had so much input gives me hope. I am part of the afraid to queue any more population because of getting trashed on for having the audacity to try and do a dungeon I have never been in before. It is a bit discouraging when you get into a group that immediately votes to kick you when you tell them you haven't been in that particular dungeon yet even if you have decent gear.
 
A few pages back there was a suggestion about a way to indicate that you are learning or willing to teach. I would be very happy to tell people ahead of time that I am new to dungeons even if that meant longer queue times. At least then I wouldn't feel so nervous about randoms. I would then be happy to join the willing to teach sector when I was experienced enough to pay it forward for the patience and understanding of those who taught me.
 
And… I have certainly been in other groups where we were all new and trying to learn except for the one person who kept spamming the disband button.  I do like the idea of making them put money in the "d-bag jar" or at least tagging them with an "I'm an elitist dick" sign above their head that they have to run around with for 20 min.
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{| class="blockquote"
...
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{| class="blockquote"
I'm just gonna throw out a handful of suggestions real quick.  My appologies if some have been said before; the discussion is a bit long at this point and I just wanna throw in a quick two cents.  ^_^;
 
Kicked players get the deserter debuff penalty
Yes, this will lead to some abuse cases with "elite" groups kicking out a low-level players, it will do away with kicking being a get-out-of-deserter-free card.  And most of the players who would be getting kicked in such a system should recieve such a penalty.
 
Disconnected players get the deserter debuff penalty
Same as above, many toxic players, if unable to convince the party to kick them, will instead disconnect (many to simply play on a different character).  Such a penalty shouldn't be instantly applied, as legitimate reasons for disconnection happen, but a player who does not return to the dungeon should be treated as the deserter they are.
 
Deserter penalty should be longer and persist after logout
The current penalty is current a slap on the wrist, and should probably be brought up a bit.  Also, I don't know if the status is already like this, but it needs to be set such that it only ticks down while that character is logged-in.
 
Instance parties can't instantly disband
Exactly what it says on the tin, there should be some level of time or effort required for a disband vote.  I'm sick of people mashing the "Random Dungeon" button, then instantly disbanding when they get a random dungeon they don't like.  Personal recomendations: 5 minutes on the dungeon timer, party has wiped at least once, at least one player has left or disconnected.
 
Disbanding should disqualify from Random Dungeon bonus
Related to the previous suggestion.  Any member of a Dungeon party who queued "Random Dungeon" and voted "Yes" on a successful disband vote should recive a debuff which prevents them from reciveing the bonus rewards from a Random Dungeon.  The debuff lasts either a long time (persisting after logout, of course), or until they successfully complete a Dungeon.
 
More robust tools for reporting and tracking toxic players
And this would benefit across the board, not just for Dungeons.  See also: League of Legends.
 
Also, slightly unrelated problem, but...
Declining a Content Finder invite should disqualify you from entering Content Finder queues for a short period
Like, a minute or two.  Look, I've been trolled before, and this would be a simple fix for that.
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This isn't really a fair summation of the situation for people on Warhound as there's some times where you just can't get 1 tank, 1 healer and 3 dps to do a premade. I've had to just go with 4 people a number of times.
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Every single person from Warhound that I've ever run to in random dungeons (across several characters on both factions and 20+ runs) has been an elitist jerk.
Yes, I believe my summation is absolutely fair that Warhound is a server full of toxic bile and any player that I get stuck queued with from there is something I'd love to avoid as much as possible.
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so focused on punishing people.  are you a sadist?  games are played to have fun.  i think a 15 min deserter is sufficient.  that is a long time to be standing around in a capital city waiting on a queue, which is what i typically do if i get one.  people shouldn't be sitting around saying kick me, kick me, i agree.  but all the methods i have seen proposed to deal with this are open to even more abuse by the player base.  quit worrying about what others do and focus on what you do.  you will be much happier.  you will run into some unpleasant people in any game. but they are easily ignored and you typically only have to suffer them if you choose to stick around.
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so focused on punishing people.  are you a sadist?  games are played to have fun.  i think a 15 min deserter is sufficient.  that is a long time to be standing around in a capital city waiting on a queue, which is what i typically do if i get one.  people shouldn't be sitting around saying kick me, kick me, i agree.  but all the methods i have seen proposed to deal with this are open to even more abuse by the player base.  quit worrying about what others do and focus on what you do.  you will be much happier.  you will run into some unpleasant people in any game. but they are easily ignored and you typically only have to suffer them if you choose to stick around.
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You are outright LYING or you've done very little to no pugs at various levels or among both factions like I have.  You should be ashamed of yourself for spreading such misleading information.
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My thoughts focus on adding punishments because there currently aren't any.
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First off, the deserter debuff is a punishment, regardless of what you say in the next sentence.
 
But more to the point, adding punishments to a game sucks anyway. All of this is about trying to force people who don't want to play with you to play with you anyway. Even if you accomplish your goal, I doubt it's going to end up being much fun.
 
Your punishments aren't going to stop people from being rude and self-centered.
 
Rather than trying to control self centered jerks, which you will never be able to do, better to learn to live at piece with an imperfect world. Because innocent people will get caught in the crossfire. I mean, giving a debuff to a kicked player? You think this will make the game more fun for the less self-centered?
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If it were easy to fix, we wouldn't be discussing it here.  But we shouldn't abandon the task just because it's difficult.
 
I am totally willing to conceed that giving the Deserter penalty to kicked players could be too large of an abuse case for the problem at-hand.  (However, as a side-note, I would like to point out cases of people getting the Deserter debuff because they had to abandon a group full of afk or disconnected players; so really it's problematic anyway.)
So then I ask: what is your suggestion toward solving the problems of;
-Deserter being innefective at disuading toxic behavior
-Kicking being a complete lack of punishment
-AFKing or disconnecting from a dungeon (or even worse behavior) being used to force a kick and/or circumvent the Deserter penalty
-"Random Dungeon" instant disbands preventing solo-queue players from playing dungeons, especially specific dungeons
-People being asshats in general
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This is what I'd like to see:
When doing a PUG group partial or complete it will give a notification there is one or more players who have not completed the dungeon on said character.
If entering a dungeon via "Random" player will be flagged for that specific content until they complete it or a cooldown to change/server daily reset occurs.
Official LFG bulletin board system in place for people to immediately form their groups with the an intended goal.
If bulletin board is not possible, then institute a filter for the current LFG system where players can check or uncheck "Beginner".
If possible to encourage veteran players helping beginners add a secondary checkbox for "mentor", these players will be given a slight additional reward ontop of the random bag if random is chosen.
This is a long shot, but remove the faction walling to increase player pool.
That to me is probably the best way to alleviate what problems pugs without crossing into more dangerous territory of punishing necessarily or causing further abuse. Basically refining what we have further and encouraging people to tough it out, while mitigating the issues with people who don't understand what "random" means. I can't think of much else to be honest and some of it will be tasks that may and will demand work from Engineering too.
 
That is just me though...
			
				
	Edited December 16, 2015 by Typrop	
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{| class="blockquote"
This is what I'd like to see:
When doing a PUG group partial or complete it will give a notification there is one or more players who have not completed the dungeon on said character.
If entering a dungeon via "Random" player will be flagged for that specific content until they complete it or a cooldown to change/server daily reset occurs.
Official LFG bulletin board system in place for people to immediately form their groups with the an intended goal.
If bulletin board is not possible, then institute a filter for the current LFG system where players can check or uncheck "Beginner".
If possible to encourage veteran players helping beginners add a secondary checkbox for "mentor", these players will be given a slight additional reward ontop of the random bag if random is chosen.
This is a long shot, but remove the faction walling to increase player pool.
That to me is probably the best way to alleviate what problems pugs without crossing into more dangerous territory of punishing necessarily or causing further abuse. Basically refining what we have further and encouraging people to tough it out, while mitigating the issues with people who don't understand what "random" means. I can't think of much else to be honest and some of it will be tasks that may and will demand work from Engineering too.
 
That is just me though...
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I think all of those suggestions are good. Well, except I don't exactly understand the first one. But the rest :)
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You seem like the kind of person who may be currently abusing the current system and don't want to be punished for it.  I'd say that toxic cupcakes should get what they deserve.
If kicking someone gives the same debuff then it may discourage people from demanding a kick and just get them to leave or disconnect instead.  Either way the group is near-instantly rid of the toxic person (or people) and can move on with the run quickly.
 
Random dungeons should have a bonus but that bonus should only apply to those who do the first dungeon that comes up and not vote-disband until they get the one they want.
The current system is being abused for glory-farming and that is something I hope is changed to discourage the current setup.
 
And the glory farmers?  Make their own full 5-person guildies/friends groups and away they go.  Nobody to stop them and random queue whatever they want without random people.
 
Anyone who purposefully queues with less than a full group is expected to get those who don't always play on the same level of skill & dedication as they do.  It happens.  If the person is toxic then kick them but otherwise it isn't a good thing to abuse the newbies.  That's why full-group random queueing is possible.
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{| class="blockquote"
To remember that you no longer have to deal with people who are jerks once they've left your presence, and they have to live with themselves the rest of their lives. You can't control these people, no matter what punitive stuff you put in the game. But you can control yourself and your reaction to them. And how much of your fun you allow them to steal.
 
That being said, I would put a short debuff on random queueing after random queueing to encourage people not to queue-disband. It wouldn't solve every problem, but it could help a little and really isn't open for abuse.
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{| class="blockquote"
Except most of them live with themselves just fine because they don't even think they're doing anything wrong (because there is nothing in the game to discourage the behavior).
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{| class="blockquote"
Except most of them live with themselves just fine because they don't even think they're doing anything wrong (because there is nothing in the game to discourage the behavior).  I would think even some kind of token penalty would help a lot by way of being an official statement from the Devs that such a behavior is not okay.
 
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You know whats worse than dungeon afkers?
 
Griefers that constantly wipe your group because two people didn't accept the disband vote on protogames via:
   - taking the beacon in the elemental hospital and running to africa with it
   - constantly starting elemental hospital / squirgnasium early as soon as people spawn before anyone can get a cleanse on their bar
   - taunt spamming as a dps
			
				
	Edited December 17, 2015 by MoePork	
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{| class="blockquote"
You know whats worse than dungeon afkers?
 
Griefers that constantly wipe your group because two people didn't accept the disband vote on protogames via:
   - taking the beacon in the elemental hospital and running to africa with it
   - constantly starting elemental hospital / squirgnasium early as soon as people spawn before anyone can get a cleanse on their bar
   - taunt spamming as a dps
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