102403-is-sticking-it-out-actually-a-thing

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I've heard numerous clanmates tell me that I should just "wait out" the low pops, bugs and pvp imbalances.
 
Is this now what is considered acceptable in mmo's?  	
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			It's what we do now in every genre video games. People always say don't buy a game right away, it's just what's been happening in all game genre.	
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It's what we do now in every genre video games. People always say don't buy a game right away, it's just what's been happening in all game genre.
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			It'll freeze in Hell or Half Life 3 will be released before it's officially and unofficially considered inacceptable by both players, developpers and editors.	
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I can't think of another media where this is acceptable.
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It'll freeze in Hell or Half Life 3 will be released before it's officially and unofficially considered inacceptable by both players, developpers and editors.
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I almost never watch a TV show unless it gets a second season, Fox cancels everything good after one season anyways. And Syfy wouldn't know a good Sci Fi show it it slapped them in the face.
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			No, just that I wouldn't even watch it until it got renewed, then I'll watch the first season on reruns.	
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Whats funny is Wildstar may very well be the game that brings the issue finally into the spot light if the dwindling player numbers are as bad as I've seen.
 
It would be a victory and a tragedy at the same time if at once the WS community reacted as one and unsubbed proving that we are as mad as hell and we're not gonna take it anymore.
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I can't think of another media where this is acceptable.
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What numbers have you seen? Wildstar is currently on par with Lineage II. 
 
Pretty much every MMO ever released had to sift through bugs and glitches for its first 6mo - year. All of them still struggle with precise balancing and bug fixes. Nature of the beast.
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While it's not really the norm, there are examples in other media where the second season/book/etc. got dramatically better, and the series picked up from there. TVTropes has a huge list: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GrowingTheBeard
 
And there are MMOs that improved with age as well. These things are subjective, obviously, but most players would not place the heyday of, e.g., WoW, at launch, but in a later expansion.
 
Will Wildstar improve in that way? Only time will tell, and only you know whether you are entertained enough to justify your subscription in the meantime.	
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Well yeah, different media, different people and just different in general. Games aren't easy, and with today's games, they become even more complicated.
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Whats funny is Wildstar may very well be the game that brings the issue finally into the spot light if the dwindling player numbers are as bad as I've seen.
 
It would be a victory and a tragedy at the same time if at once the WS community reacted as one and unsubbed proving that we are as mad as hell and we're not gonna take it anymore.
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So are you saying you would put up with a horrible 1st season if they promised the 2nd one would be better?
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instead what'll probably happen is a slow bleed for a few months/year until everything is fixed up  and the "hardcores" have gnashed their teeths a bit and ran off screaming vengeance.
 
then the game either runs a massive ad campaign or a f2p style deal to attract back players ala ToR or Rift.
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I was thinking about this earlier. How they might be allowing for a significant margin to be "come-back-ers"
 
I'm not against this really. However I would've felt much more comfortable if they would've said that up front. Or better yet, not release the game until some spot inbetween the launch date they had and the "comeback" cutoff date.
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While it's not really the norm, there are examples in other media where the second season/book/etc. got dramatically better, and the series picked up from there. TVTropes has a huge list: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GrowingTheBeard
 
And there are MMOs that improved with age as well. These things are subjective, obviously, but most players would not place the heyday of, e.g., WoW, at launch, but in a later expansion.
 
Will Wildstar improve in that way? Only time will tell, and only you know whether you are entertained enough to justify your subscription in the meantime.
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My personal guess is the release was more Ncsoft's decision.
 
it'd explain how halfassed some of the endgame decisions seem. or how feedback saying those systems were halfassed in beta seem to have went ignored. They might have not had time to even start moving on them.
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Linkin Park. I keep buying their CDs, and feel ripped off e-v-e-r-y single time. So bang, there is another media it gets allowed in.
 
The game has been out for 2 months? Surly a full one now. Did you ever take it your guild members were just playing out their free 30 days? Guild I'm in has many who have not logged in in weeks, about the time "free" play would have ran out.
 
Not sure what you see as sub-par. You have examples?
I play WoW, that is the only game most try to compare this to (and GW2, but I know nothing of that game). That game is 10years old, and still has issues.
I would say all P2P MMOs in the last 8 years have had one thing to try and get past: their first year.
EQ, from what I know, has done well over the years. I started playing MMOs back in 2004 (FFXI), and have got to watch many MMOs fall before their 1st year. Wildstar is the new fun guy, and tho some of the issues need to be looked at, it isn't game breaking. I made it to level 50, I enjoyed the quest march more then I thought (I liked the story). We all would like to see changes, but this isn't our game. We can suggest tweaks and changes, and report bugs, but time is what this game needs.	
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			I've been in FF14 more than WS since I bought a month(of WildStar) through CREDD. I don't know about sticking it out. I chose wait and see and resub if I like it. Even if they fix the Attunement issues I still have an issue with the way Core Abilities are being treated like gear basically. The whole system of Amp points and Ability points as Drops or Vendor items just screams CREDD trap. Yes you can earn them but when things get competitive what's the Fastest option? Hurry up and buy!	
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Linkin Park. I keep buying their CDs, and feel ripped off e-v-e-r-y single time. So bang, there is another media it gets allowed in.
 
The game has been out for 2 months? Surly a full one now. Did you ever take it your guild members were just playing out their free 30 days? Guild I'm in has many who have not logged in in weeks, about the time "free" play would have ran out.
 
Not sure what you see as sub-par. You have examples?
I play WoW, that is the only game most try to compare this to (and GW2, but I know nothing of that game). That game is 10years old, and still has issues.
I would say all P2P MMOs in the last 8 years have had one thing to try and get past: their first year.
EQ, from what I know, has done well over the years. I started playing MMOs back in 2004 (FFXI), and have got to watch many MMOs fall before their 1st year. Wildstar is the new fun guy, and tho some of the issues need to be looked at, it isn't game breaking. I made it to level 50, I enjoyed the quest march more then I thought (I liked the story). We all would like to see changes, but this isn't our game. We can suggest tweaks and changes, and report bugs, but time is what this game needs.
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It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. This is a real personal dilemma for me.
 
I, again, could understand waiting. Just not with an active sub.
 
And then I just get upset at the fact they could've easily just released it at xmas and save me the hassle.
 
Quick disclaimer - I'm halfway kidding when I'm making suggestions as I have no intel on the innerworkings of a company's finances and schemes, much less a media company with strict deadlines. 
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I've been in FF14 more than WS since I bought a month(of WildStar) through CREDD. I don't know about sticking it out. I chose wait and see and resub if I like it. Even if they fix the Attunement issues I still have an issue with the way Core Abilities are being treated like gear basically. The whole system of Amp points and Ability points as Drops or Vendor items just screams CREDD trap. Yes you can earn them but when things get competitive what's the Fastest option? Hurry up and buy!
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			No, not really, if you are not having fun then dont play.	
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Lol, hurry up and buy.
 
I really am a fan of pay to win. I can see how the young and the unemployed would take offense. But meh. 
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Well, you have to keep a few things in mind:
 
A:  Carbine has 200 staff working on the game to create it and, in their off-time, to do some checking.  Then they had a couple weeks of alpha and beta testing with a few thousand people.  We caught a lot of bugs and glitches during those phases.  Then the game had a three day headstart and launch, where the game was put through its paces by probably a few hundred thousand people for almost two months now.  Simply by sheer virtue of numbers, it's impossible to find everything that could have possibly been found.
 
B:  This is considering that an MMORPG is a much, much larger and more complex project than, say, Ubisoft coming out with another Assassin's Creed game.  That can be done in a year with a lot of code recycled, since there's no reason to change it.  Wildstar was built with a custom built engine and enough content to sustain open world PVE, PVP, personal housing, etc.  It is probably ten times the sheer scope of your average single-player game, and the myriad issues that can be raised balancing all those spinning plates.
 
C:  Games twenty years ago had bugs.  A lot of bugs.  Games ten years ago had bugs.  Games being released this year have bugs.  This hasn't changed from the earliest days of gaming to now; you can't catch everything.  The biggest differences between MMORPGs now and games then are twofold:  a non-linear game means that a lot of those bugs will be found and games now can fix their problems through updates.
 
D:  If I wasn't on forums like these, I wouldn't have known how many or what kinds of bugs other people are finding.  I've run into two so far that I'd consider to affect gameplay, and not to an insurmountable amount.  As far as I can see, this is the single smoothest MMORPG launch I've ever been in (and I've been in many over the years).  That isn't to say these bugs don't exist, but we're a lot more aware of them now.  Part of the reason we think everything is so "buggy" is because everyone else can point to bugs and let us all know about them.  Back years ago, a game could be a broken piece of shit if you didn't play it exactly the right way, but since everyone played it only one way and nobody really shared the information unless you went looking for it, you wouldn't know that going backwards through a wall you weren't supposed to walk into would have you fall endlessly and eternally through the level until you hit reset.  Now, you hear if a boss acts a bit shifty on a pull.  We're simply going to hear about them more.
 
E:  If it's really affected your experience to the point where it's not fun for you personally to play, it's up to you whether or not to leave and wait for the game to be patched to whatever level you'd find acceptable.  From what I've heard, most of us don't fall into that category; I certainly don't.  I'm perfectly willing and happy to fund Carbine's continued development so that they can debug the issues other people are having, as I'm having a Hell of a time with this game.  Maybe it's having been around to see how badly Funcom screwed the pooch on the MMORPG I anticipated most before Wildstar, but I'm actually very impressed by the speed Carbine has displayed getting through issues.  Things that were a problem at launch really aren't anywhere near as disruptive now.  From what I've seen, they've certainly earned their 15 dollars for last month and this month.
 
F:  Also, I think there are a lot of guilds thinking people left when they didn't.  It's why I haven't joined a guild yet.  I do a lot of alt-jumping back and forth across the faction line.  If I'd joined different guilds for all my characters, only one guild would think I'd been on this week.  Two would assume I hadn't been on at all in the last two weeks.  Some characters would make it look like I'd quit shortly after launch.  It's not a good metric unless you have their account added as a friend, since then you can see when they last logged in.  Just about all my account friends are still around on one server and character or the other.
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Could you be more presumptuous..
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			Sadly there is never balance in mmo.  Usually when big content patches drop the OP balance moves from one class to another.	
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You really know how to skirt the amount for TLDR lol. Good points though.
 
This really isn't a hate on WS. More the now standard mmo-flowchart. 
 
Sigh, I guess all I can really do is draw up some wildstar porn, sell it, and hope to buyout NCSOFT.
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Lol, hurry up and buy.
 
I really am a fan of pay to win. I can see how the young and the unemployed would take offense. But meh. 
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 I don't mind pay-to-win in a f2p game, but I firmly believe that a sub-based game should remain a level playing field for everyone paying a sub.
 
That said, yeah, there are definitely elements of this game that scream that they're planning to go f2p sooner rather than later. Obnoxiously priced mounts, a per-character RNG-based dye system, limited bag space that puts many f2p titles to shame...
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I've heard numerous clanmates tell me that I should just "wait out" the low pops, bugs and pvp imbalances.
 
Is this now what is considered acceptable in mmo's? 
 
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There should be a daily cap per account on troll threads. 
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My personal guess is the release was more Ncsoft's decision.
 
it'd explain how halfassed some of the endgame decisions seem. or how feedback saying those systems were halfassed in beta seem to have went ignored. They might have not had time to even start moving on them.
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There should be a daily cap per account on troll threads. 
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 I don't mind pay-to-win in a f2p game, but I firmly believe that a sub-based game should remain a level playing field for everyone paying a sub.
 
 
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I can't think of another media where this is acceptable.
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I, no kidding, would've payed 100 dollars for the game AND a 15 sub fee if they would've released the game 2 months later and finely polished.
 
Maybe this is the next payment model eh game devs? lol. This could be the next "f2p" idea.
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It's "2 months later" now. This is what the game would have looked like if Carbine had released the game 2 months later. It's not like the devs released the first UltraDrop with 1000+ bug fixes by sitting on their hands.
 
This is the story with every MMO. I guarantee you that whatever new MMO you consider leaving WildStar for will have the forums filled with complaints about the very same thing. It's just not possible to release an MMO with no bug, optimization or balance issues. That's why it's considered acceptable to wait it out.
 
People seem to have it in their heads that since MMOs have been around for years that every new MMO should be more polished and more perfect than the previous one, but they all use a lot of original coding and can't draw upon the innovations of previous MMOs as much as one might think.
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It's "2 months later" now. This is what the game would have looked like if Carbine had released the game 2 months later. It's not like the devs released the first UltraDrop with 1000+ bug fixes by sitting on their hands.
 
This is the story with every MMO. I guarantee you that whatever new MMO you consider leaving WildStar for will have the forums filled with complaints about the very same thing. It's just not possible to release an MMO with no bug, optimization or balance issues. That's why it's considered acceptable to wait it out.
 
People seem to have it in their heads that since MMOs have been around for years that every new MMO should be more polished and more perfect than the previous one, but they all use a lot of original coding and can't draw upon the innovations of previous MMOs as much as one might think.
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I can't think of another media where this is acceptable.
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My 2 cents... I'm still really enjoying the game and I don't feel like I am sticking anything out?
 
Maybe you are right, i'm not playing 40+ hours a week right now. But look at it this way. I've gotten 12 days of playtime down in two months. That's a lot of content for ANYTHING someone may do for fun.
 
I think we have become content fiends when playing MMOs, making it literally impossible for devs to keep up. There is no sticking it out, if you enjoy the game and the progress you've made then keep playing. Run stuff with guild mates, play other games ect... Content will come, and the newer stuff you may run at a smoother pace.
 
Not a single 60 dollar console game has given me that much playtime AND in that short of a time period.	
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			You sticking what out now?0_0 	
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You sticking what out now?0_0 
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			Sticking out is what you do playing a mmo, there will always be fixing, balancing, tweeking, etc. A mmo is never 'done and ready to go'. Its not possible with a online game with so many people with different 'ideas' of a how the game should be. Sometimes changes will be bad and maybe not apply to a few but for others, then next month other changes will apply that some will like and some dont so its kind of a catch22 thing. Some will always be unhappy while some will be satisfied.	
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Whats funny is Wildstar may very well be the game that brings the issue finally into the spot light if the dwindling player numbers are as bad as I've seen.
 
It would be a victory and a tragedy at the same time if at once the WS community reacted as one and unsubbed proving that we are as mad as hell and we're not gonna take it anymore.
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If you haven't noticed with Greenlight/Kickstarter, in about 5-10 years all our games will be sold as Beta's, then Alpha's, then you'll buy the game before anyone has even worked on it at all. (concept stage)
 
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It's "2 months later" now. This is what the game would have looked like if Carbine had released the game 2 months later. It's not like the devs released the first UltraDrop with 1000+ bug fixes by sitting on their hands.
 
This is the story with every MMO. I guarantee you that whatever new MMO you consider leaving WildStar for will have the forums filled with complaints about the very same thing. It's just not possible to release an MMO with no bug, optimization or balance issues. That's why it's considered acceptable to wait it out.
 
People seem to have it in their heads that since MMOs have been around for years that every new MMO should be more polished and more perfect than the previous one, but they all use a lot of original coding and can't draw upon the innovations of previous MMOs as much as one might think.
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Best cheese i saw was people spending 140 bucks to get Landmark and literally build Everquest Next for SoE.
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Best cheese i saw was people spending 140 bucks to get Landmark and literally build Everquest Next for SoE.
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There should be a daily cap per account on troll threads. 
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It is possible to release a MMO with no bug, optimization or balance issues - it just isn't practical.
Games can't stay in beta for 10 years; launching 2 months early probably cost them a few subs.  
 
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I don't think "sticking it out" is as widespread as you seem to think.  Games are meant to be fun.  If it's not fun why play?  I'd definitely sit a month+ out if I wasn't having any fun.  Cancelling, then coming back after a content patch/fix is par the course for MMORPGs.  While dangerous for the studios cause people can easily leave and never come back, you as a customer have to put your time and money first.  
 
Let's face it.  Being guilded/friends with someone who's in a game but unhappy isn't fun at all.  Give your wallet and your friends a break.  Play something else until WS gets appealing again to you.  If it ever does.	
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I almost never watch a TV show unless it gets a second season, Fox cancels everything good after one season anyways. And Syfy wouldn't know a good Sci Fi show it it slapped them in the face.
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It is in the MMO business, if you have done alot of MMO releases, you'll know. Not a single MMO has lived up to its expectations at release, not a single MMO was bugfree at release, really, I find this one with a considerable low amount of issues, most things can and will be fixed.
 
I have played many MMOs, f2p and sub, korean and western. I have played many modern MMO releases like RIFT, GW2, SWTOR, I have played WoW for years, but I have also played some f2ps when I was younger. I have also played Runescape way back. All MMOs are bugged at release, most of the time when an MMO releases they should've been in bèta a little while longer, just like this one. Most of the time this is the publishers fault though.
 
You should indeed give the game some time. This is a classic cliché, but WoW, wich has a millions of subscribers now, was a mess back at release. You weren't playing any game, you were playing with the massive bugs it had. People always compare it to the WoW of now, like it has not a single issue, but that game has 4 expansions now, with a 5th coming, they have alot of experience in the field and it still has some issues. People always forget how that 'oh so great game' used to be. Most people who are playing WoW now, would not have been playing it back at release because of the many, many issues it had.
 
I am sure Carbine will straighten up, do their work and deliver us a great game. They are trying to fix the issues, they are working on it but it just takes some time.
 
Time will always tell.	
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It is in the MMO business, if you have done alot of MMO releases, you'll know. Not a single MMO has lived up to its expectations at release, not a single MMO was bugfree at release, really, I find this one with a considerable low amount of issues.
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It's "2 months later" now. This is what the game would have looked like if Carbine had released the game 2 months later. It's not like the devs released the first UltraDrop with 1000+ bug fixes by sitting on their hands.
 
This is the story with every MMO. I guarantee you that whatever new MMO you consider leaving WildStar for will have the forums filled with complaints about the very same thing. It's just not possible to release an MMO with no bug, optimization or balance issues. That's why it's considered acceptable to wait it out.
 
People seem to have it in their heads that since MMOs have been around for years that every new MMO should be more polished and more perfect than the previous one, but they all use a lot of original coding and can't draw upon the innovations of previous MMOs as much as one might think.
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I've heard numerous clanmates tell me that I should just "wait out" the low pops, bugs and pvp imbalances.
 
Is this now what is considered acceptable in mmo's? 
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Proves my point eh? If it's already happening in a small amount, increasing in the Greenlight/Kickstarter phase (although I'm cool with Kickstarter because it actually makes good products unlike Rock simulator) 
 
Which brings me to my issue of indie gaming sites other than kickstarter
 
Rock simulator $5 pledge
 
Literally, they'll send you a picture of a rock.
 
Wtf kind of stupidity is humanity coming to?
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I've heard numerous clanmates tell me that I should just "wait out" the low pops, bugs and pvp imbalances.
 
Is this now what is considered acceptable in mmo's? 
 
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I've heard numerous clanmates tell me that I should just "wait out" the low pops, bugs and pvp imbalances.
 
Is this now what is considered acceptable in mmo's? 
 
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I still expected more.
 
 
I am happy with bugs. (No amount of beta testing will catch everything)
I am happy with class imbalance, both within classes (ie. overpowered/underpowered spells/amps) and between classes (some classes are just better than others at things)
I am happy with a lack of features (features can be added, or changed, in future)
 
I am not happy with a game that has been in development for 9 years, that is apparently written by experienced developers, but fails at:
1. No clear gearing up pathway, or rather, one where (somehow) the people writing it missed that harder content does not drop better gear.
2. Horrendous itemization, in the form of raid drops no one in their sane mind would ever use, or a pathetic rune system that just unbalances gear massively.
3. PvP endgame that is just as broken (can't elaborate as I don't know heaps about it, but just ask the pvp folks)
4. F2P or KoreanMMO-style RNG grinds, gated behind other silly things, all for no meaningful rewards and whilst under a P2P pay model.
5. Timers on Dungeons where 50% of content is skippable.. (WTF is the point?) Medals yes yes yes, but timed trash-killing (or avoiding) to get medals? Dumb.
6. Half the patches break more stuff than they fix. (Who is coding these things? a fat fingered 4yr old with autism?)
 
It just stinks of poor design decisions and a really uncontrolled development environment.
 
That said, I'm very happy with:
1. The way the game actually 'plays'.. It's FUN as hell. (When you can be bothered playing it for a little bit of grindy rep/EP or a 1 in a million shot at an upgrade)
2. Raid attunements (in general)
3. Most of the levelling process (best fun I've had so far in this game was before I hit level cap and then had nothing to do that would progress the chars)
4. AH/Cx design
5. Hoverboards, etc
6. Dyes and Costumes (other than the issues with them, they're still brilliant for casuals/etc)
and last but not least
7. Housing. (truly best I've ever seen)
 
So overall... Eh.
I can live with bugs, and "stick it out" for when they get fixed, but not when seriously 75% of endgame PvE and PvP is so poorly designed, and developers have been so massively MIA this whole time, spending more time telling us how "they're listening", than actually listening, or at least acknowledging anything they're listening.	
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Waiting out the hiccups in the first 6-12 months is actually old school. People who freak out and bail on a new MMO used to be a tiny minority.
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Lets look at some basics. 
 
 
WIldstar : Comes out with smooth launch has few problems that are being worked on with a steady pace, Also has teams of Dev's pushing out new content as well new freebies such as mounts / costume sets for those who help prevent hackers.  I think it's safe to say that every review I have seen shows that This game has ranked the highest in the field since WoW drop'd
 
ESO: Came out with long delays and wait times, Quest were broken and would not allow you to finish the game, The crafting system as well as auction house exploits caused hundreds of gold sellers to gain free stock, PvP is horrible went from being able to duo to needing a Full group to take a camp. Game features that were going to be put in at release were pushed back to being the first expansion. Seems Live beta for this game will end sometime next year.  Every review for this game has shown it going F2P within the year and that it has already failed. 	
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Lets look at some basics. 
 
 
WIldstar : Comes out with smooth launch has few problems that are being worked on with a steady pace, Also has teams of Dev's pushing out new content as well new freebies such as mounts / costume sets for those who help prevent hackers.  I think it's safe to say that every review I have seen shows that This game has ranked the highest in the field since WoW drop'd
 
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			The funny thing about MMO's, is that you'll always find enough to become unsatisfied with if you look.  Concentrate on what you enjoy about the game, and don't dwell on the negative.  If you reach the point where you aren't able to justify the expense based on what you enjoy about it?  Cancel your sub.Truthfully, server population being low is a pretty major negative in a game based around social interaction and gameworld population.  It would be pretty foolish for Wildstar to allow server populations to get too low before triggering an action plan.	
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There weren't as many alternatives. Nowadays, the market has changed but companies continue to operate as though consumers don't have more choices of where to spend their entertainment dollar.
 
Adapt or die. I'll let you guess which one wildstar is doing.
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Lets look at some basics. 
 
 
WIldstar : Comes out with smooth launch has few problems that are being worked on with a steady pace, Also has teams of Dev's pushing out new content as well new freebies such as mounts / costume sets for those who help prevent hackers.  I think it's safe to say that every review I have seen shows that This game has ranked the highest in the field since WoW drop'd
 
ESO: Came out with long delays and wait times, Quest were broken and would not allow you to finish the game, The crafting system as well as auction house exploits caused hundreds of gold sellers to gain free stock, PvP is horrible went from being able to duo to needing a Full group to take a camp. Game features that were going to be put in at release were pushed back to being the first expansion. Seems Live beta for this game will end sometime next year.  Every review for this game has shown it going F2P within the year and that it has already failed. 
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Unfortunately, bad player support, bugs, imbalancing and lack of content seems to be a staple of games these days.
 
If you haven't noticed with Greenlight/Kickstarter, in about 5-10 years all our games will be sold as Beta's, then Alpha's, then you'll buy the game before anyone has even worked on it at all. (concept stage)
 
You'll still have some of the playerbase fanboying it away and refusing to admit the errors that exist (they still exist regardless). Not gonna lie either, they all do seem to be pretty young these "white knights"
 
The sad thing is, most people are actually ok with all of the above, which means nothing will change.
 
Modern gamers like being treated worse than a *cupcake*, it's pretty sad.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I still expected more.
 
 
I am happy with bugs. (No amount of beta testing will catch everything)
I am happy with class imbalance, both within classes (ie. overpowered/underpowered spells/amps) and between classes (some classes are just better than others at things)
I am happy with a lack of features (features can be added, or changed, in future)
 
I am not happy with a game that has been in development for 9 years, that is apparently written by experienced developers, but fails at:
1. No clear gearing up pathway, or rather, one where (somehow) the people writing it missed that harder content does not drop better gear.
2. Horrendous itemization, in the form of raid drops no one in their sane mind would ever use, or a pathetic rune system that just unbalances gear massively.
3. PvP endgame that is just as broken (can't elaborate as I don't know heaps about it, but just ask the pvp folks)
4. F2P or KoreanMMO-style RNG grinds, gated behind other silly things, all for no meaningful rewards and whilst under a P2P pay model.
5. Timers on Dungeons where 50% of content is skippable.. (WTF is the point?) Medals yes yes yes, but timed trash-killing (or avoiding) to get medals? Dumb.
6. Half the patches break more stuff than they fix. (Who is coding these things? a fat fingered 4yr old with autism?)
 
It just stinks of poor design decisions and a really uncontrolled development environment.
 
That said, I'm very happy with:
1. The way the game actually 'plays'.. It's FUN as hell. (When you can be bothered playing it for a little bit of grindy rep/EP or a 1 in a million shot at an upgrade)
2. Raid attunements (in general)
3. Most of the levelling process (best fun I've had so far in this game was before I hit level cap and then had nothing to do that would progress the chars)
4. AH/Cx design
5. Hoverboards, etc
6. Dyes and Costumes (other than the issues with them, they're still brilliant for casuals/etc)
and last but not least
7. Housing. (truly best I've ever seen)
 
So overall... Eh.
I can live with bugs, and "stick it out" for when they get fixed, but not when seriously 75% of endgame PvE and PvP is so poorly designed, and developers have been so massively MIA this whole time, spending more time telling us how "they're listening", than actually listening, or at least acknowledging anything they're listening.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You make it sound like the dark times between the fall of Atari and the rise of Nintendo. The early days of MMOs were nothing like that. There were dozens of companies making the jump within a year of Ultima Online and a few other games hitting it big, and there was a thriving PC gaming marketplace. There were tons of alternatives available. It's just that consumers then had a more realistic notion of how long things took to develop, and weren't so scatterbrained impatient.
 
They could spend their money elsewhere, but they didn't because they invested in their games instead of playing like nomads. The crowd that hops from game to game loves to go on about value for their entertainment dollar, without ever considering that getting game after game and tossing it aside without giving it a chance to get good is a waste of their money.
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{| class="blockquote"
It's "2 months later" now. This is what the game would have looked like if Carbine had released the game 2 months later. It's not like the devs released the first UltraDrop with 1000+ bug fixes by sitting on their hands.
 
This is the story with every MMO. I guarantee you that whatever new MMO you consider leaving WildStar for will have the forums filled with complaints about the very same thing. It's just not possible to release an MMO with no bug, optimization or balance issues. That's why it's considered acceptable to wait it out.
 
People seem to have it in their heads that since MMOs have been around for years that every new MMO should be more polished and more perfect than the previous one, but they all use a lot of original coding and can't draw upon the innovations of previous MMOs as much as one might think.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Honestly I think the poeple leaving aren't leving because of the bugs, I think it's because of fundemental design decisions. Or that could just me projecting. I'm fine with bugs or class imbalances some quests not working or what not, but the grinds, money sinks, time sinks, RNG, gate after gate after gate. It begins to push my patience.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
instead what'll probably happen is a slow bleed for a few months/year until everything is fixed up  and the "hardcores" have gnashed their teeths a bit and ran off screaming vengeance.
 
then the game either runs a massive ad campaign or a f2p style deal to attract back players ala ToR or Rift.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This is correct. The bugs are annoying, but manageable. The design of the game is the opposite of fun. It seems all you do in this game is something boring in an attempt to possibly do something fun down the road. No thanks.
----
			i know Carbine really wants a sub base.  Soon wow will fail to the point they drop theirs (i and several more of my guild members turned off our subs - tired of the game but more tired of paying in-between the nightmarishly long updates -  so why go that way?  Lose the monthly and fill up the servers!  Then sell the new content.  10 million buying expansions is better than three thousand paying subs.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This is correct. The bugs are annoying, but manageable. The design of the game is the opposite of fun. It seems all you do in this game is something boring in an attempt to possibly do something fun down the road. No thanks.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Honestly I think the poeple leaving aren't leving because of the bugs, I think it's because of fundemental design decisions. Or that could just me projecting. I'm fine with bugs or class imbalances some quests not working or what not, but the grinds, money sinks, time sinks, RNG, gate after gate after gate. It begins to push my patience.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
What numbers have you seen? Wildstar is currently on par with Lineage II. 
 
Pretty much every MMO ever released had to sift through bugs and glitches for its first 6mo - year. All of them still struggle with precise balancing and bug fixes. Nature of the beast.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Watch out guys, it's on par with a game released in OCT 2003!
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This is the truth of it, and what the staunchest defenders of the game don't want to acknowledge.
 
EVE is also a game without a timegated cap on character progression. YES, skills take days and months to train, but you are always training them. There's never a period where you say, "I want this skill, but can't work towards it any more this week because of an arbitrary gate that says I get no more skill points after 2 days".
 
Also, EVE creates its own content via the players. CCP releases new WAYS for players to interact with each other and the environment, but the players themselves are always the chief drivers of events. wildstar isn't ever going to be anything like that.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Their totally different games in comparisant but the credd system has its similarities. It would be nice to see more mmo's come out with player based content similar to how nvw attempted it.. unfortunately the game did a so so job at executing it. Ill admit normally i support time gated currencies but with as many options and necesseties that are offered to spend elder gems on.. i completely disagree with carbine on this matter. I would rather see a daily limit that excedes the weekly at the end.. than see players only logging in 2 times a week to play.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 I would rather see a daily limit that excedes the weekly at the end.. than see players only logging in 2 times a week to play.
----
			Wiawyr Wildstar has few problems when I look back at the history of MMORPGS.  If you think that Wildstar is having problems or has had problems then you have never played 90% of the games that have launched in the past 10 yrs. 	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Their totally different games in comparisant but the credd system has its similarities. It would be nice to see more mmo's come out with player based content similar to how nvw attempted it.. unfortunately the game did a so so job at executing it. Ill admit normally i support time gated currencies but with as many options and necesseties that are offered to spend elder gems on.. i completely disagree with carbine on this matter. I would rather see a daily limit that excedes the weekly at the end.. than see players only logging in 2 times a week to play.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Wiawyr Wildstar has few problems when I look back at the history of MMORPGS.  If you think that Wildstar is having problems or has had problems then you have never played 90% of the games that have launched in the past 10 yrs. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
What happened to those games? AoC, FFXIV 1.0, Aion, Champions Online, AutoAssault, Warhammer to name a few.
 
Where are they now?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Wiawyr Wildstar has few problems when I look back at the history of MMORPGS.  If you think that Wildstar is having problems or has had problems then you have never played 90% of the games that have launched in the past 10 yrs. 
----
			Actually I liked Vanguards crafting system better than SWGs (still not helping any though as that is now sunset as well.)	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Actually I liked Vanguards crafting system better than SWGs (still not helping any though as that is now sunset as well.)
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I've heard numerous clanmates tell me that I should just "wait out" the low pops, bugs and pvp imbalances.
 
Is this now what is considered acceptable in mmo's? 
 
----
			
Well, waiting it out is a good option, I vote go hassle Olivar in any/all of his posts for a fun time.
 
See how drop3 goes for PvE fixes.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I spent three weeks' elder gems to unlock another action set.
 
Then I realized how *cupcake* stupid it is to make the ability to play a new role cost three weeks of elder gems. It's painful how stupidly implemented the system is.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I can't think of another media where this is acceptable.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You'd have a lot more luck getting all the crack, meth, and heroin addicts to up and quit drugs.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
For someone who's only been here 3 weeks ... is acquiring three weeks' elder gems to spend on unlocking another action set even possible?
 
{| class="blockquote"
There's a giant flaw in your assumptions. Gaping, even. If you can't find it yourself, let me know, I'll point it out for you.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Movies: don't go until you see the reviews from actual viewers.
 
Books: don't buy them until you read the reviews from actual readers.
 
Games: don't buy them until you read the reviews from actual players.
 
New restaurants: don't eat there until it gets a good Yelp review.
 
Employees: don't hire them unless they have a good resume.
 
It really applies to every medium and human action everywhere. Terms like "acceptable" don't apply. It just is how it is.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Many people go to the movies based on previews. How many people are going to wait for a review for "The Avengers; Age of Ultron"
 
Same thing, J.K. Rowling didn't become a bagillionair because fans "waited for reviews"
 
Again, same with movies. Am I (or others) gonna wait for a review for the Witcher 3 or Dragon Age 3? nope.  How many gamers waited for CoD last year? or the year before, or the year before that?
 
People check out restaurants all the time, if they are good, go back, if not don't. It's one meal, not a loss.
 
Hiring employees may be the most accurate, but I know for a fact people still get hired off the street with nothing more than a brief interview.
 
People buy, go to, get stuff with little or no prior knowledge all the time. "Great things come to those who wait" yes, indeed, but, "The the early bird gets the worm."
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Easy enough. You're going off of when I joined the forums.
 
The forums don't track when you started the game.
 
Glad I could educate you!
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
So member forum accounts and game accounts are mutually exclusive then?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
That's not the correct usage of mutually exclusive.
 
The forum accounts track your forum usage. They don't track your game usage. Ergo, trying to say someone has only been playing for 3 weeks because they've been on the forums for 3 weeks is an assumption and baseless.
 
 
----
			
I think the thing you have to understand about games today is that people do not wish to work for many of the final game or end game content. They want to be able to log in for five mins of play time and feel like they are able to beat or win the game. 
 
This game does not have a win button, Sure you can do several things from pvp, pve, raiding, crafting, housing, etc yet the thing to understand when you play an online game is that you are playing with other players. These games are not made for you but for us, If your not having fun then stop playing because We are having fun. This doesn't mean you can't cry about how you were able to hit 50 in 3 days because school is out for the summer and you have no job or friends to fill the void in your life, So instead of reading a book or doing something that would allow you to have fun you choose to take out your frustrations on everyone else. 
 
So from everyone who does play the game and enjoys the time we do get to play it please go play in traffic. 
 
 
Side note You can say what you wish but once your account is done and you leave the game. Let us play in peace. If you want to have a voice in this discussion pay for the game like we do and join in. 	
----
			
Wow, reading some of these comments of it being the "norm" or "acceptable" makes me sad that as gamers it's become believed that one is supposed to roll over and think of "ghost towns" as acceptable.
 
I've been playing the daylights out of FFXIV, and beauty is, it's never anywhere near empty.  Servers are broken down not only into country regions, but even micro-regions inside countries.  There are several west-coast and east-coast servers for the US-region, and all are active... some even have only certain times of the day you can make new characters (typically the unofficial RP servers... not sure if it's capacity or they want to monitor the names being generated... perhaps a bit of both).  Whether it be weekend, weekday, "working hours", "prime-time", even oddball off hours in the middle of the night and/or past midnight, I always regularly see other people on a regular basis... even when not in cities... will be out in some zone killing things, moving around, and pass by people... even in a game as old as FFXIV.
 
Heck yesterday (Saturday/weekend) there were so many people on the server I play on, there were quite a few times while doing Fates that there was too much going on at once and was actually dropping off the server (even with the setting for how many other players to show set at "minimal") since I'm using WiFi and not a hard-wired connection.  Able to jump right back in, but still, gives an idea of just how active things are over there.  I'm usually on the fence about random-teaming (in most games it's a real risk not knowing the type of personality you might get stuck with), or even RPing... but feel comfortable and nearly joyous doing it in Realm Reborn... people are so friendly, helpful, having a good time, good sports, etc.  Hasn't been a dungeon I've run yet where anybody's had anything even remotely close to an attitude, grumpiness, and are more than willing/happy to explain boss-battles to new players.
 
Everytime I see people shrugging and saying, "oh yeah, low pops and cruddy/boring/dull/anti-social gameplay is normal", the more I as a gaming consumer shudder to think what this does to the gaming market/industry and the "acceptable standards" as they become more and more lax.  It's like when people say, "oh yeah, it's perfectly fine to pay $75-$150+ on one or multiple deluxe-edition pre-orders, to have it so broken/buggy it can barely play"... granted, yes, launches have bugs... but there are some instances where the "lemon-line" can definitely be crossed over as well.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Wow, reading some of these comments of it being the "norm" or "acceptable" makes me sad that as gamers it's become believed that one is supposed to roll over and think of "ghost towns" as acceptable.
 
I've been playing the daylights out of FFXIV, and beauty is, it's never anywhere near empty.  Servers are broken down not only into country regions, but even micro-regions inside countries.  There are several west-coast and east-coast servers for the US, region, and all are active... some even have only certain times of the day you can make new characters (typically the unofficial RP servers... not sure if it's capacity or they want to monitor the names being generated... perhaps a bit of both).  Whether it be weekend, weekday, "working hours", "prime-time", even oddball off hours in the middle of the night and/or past midnight, I always regularly see other people on a regular basis... even when not in cities... will be out in some zone killing things, moving around, and pass by people... even in a game as old as FFXIV.
 
Heck yesterday (Saturday/weekend) there were so many people on the server I play on, there were quite a few times while doing Fates that there was too much going on at once and was actually dropping off the server since I'm using WiFi and not a hard-wired connection.  Able to jump right back in, but still, gives an idea of just how active things are over there.  I'm usually on the fence about random-teaming, or even RPing... but feel comfortable and nearly joyous doing it in Realm Reborn... people are so friendly, helpful, having a good time, good sports, etc.  Hasn't been a dungeon I've run yet where anybody's had anything even remotely close to an attitude, grumpiness, and are more than willing/happy to explain boss-battles to new players.
 
Everytime I see people shrugging and saying, "oh yeah, low pops and cruddy/boring/dull/anti-social gameplay is normal", the more I as a gaming consumer I shudder to think what this does to the gaming market/industry and the "acceptable standards" as they become more and more lax.  It's like when people say, "oh yeah, it's perfectly fine to pay $75-$150+ on one or multiple deluxe-edition pre-orders, to have it so broken/buggy it can barely play"... granted, yes, launches have bugs... but there are some instances where the "lemon-line" can definitely be crossed over as well.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Only took a few years and complete rebuild of FFXIV to get there. :P
 
Should've seen 1.0. Ghost town for sure there.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Still, past is the past... same can be said somewhat loosely for Vanilla WoW, or DCUO, or several other games... what matters is success... you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs (I'm sure if WS was actually doing decently viable you'd be gushing its success as well...).  The even better part about Realm Reborn... have had literally ZERO bugs/glitches/crashes/etc... game runs like a champ and just keeps on going.  The missus laptop has had tendencies of overheating and shutting off... but from what I've read, that seems the standard norm for laptops running that game... will hopefully figure out a solution soon.
 
PS - And yes, heard the horror stories of 1.0... ironically, Wildstar emulated a lot of the issues in 1.0... clunky interfaces, hidden/hard-to-find menus, broken gameplay, etc.  (Come to think of it, there's several MMO snafus exhibited in WS.)  Also, thank you for at the same time, pointing out just how old Realm Reborn is, while still be mind-blowingly successful. :D
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
FFXIV is old, FFXIV:ARR isn't very old.
 
Two different games. Two different lead developers.
 
I'll admit, I had fun in ARR. But for a three year or more total overhaul, it had better have been worth it or SE wouldn't be a company anymore.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Even though different lead developers, it shows they were willing to totally start over and push it back out for the fans.  And as for what you say about "been worth it"... eh, subjective... not sure if you mean it's no longer worth it to you... but by its success it's obviously worth it to the millions still actively playing it.
 
As far as ARR not being very old... the concept, engine, framework was all patented at the start of FFXIV... and since Realm Reborn was an official reboot and not a new number in the series... I'd consider the "birth" of FFXIV, be it 1.0 or Realm Reborn, when the original FFXIV first started.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Or you can, hear me out now, you can remove the limit on elder gems so we can actually get amp and ability points if we play enough. I mean, for a #hardcore game, they sure don't like giving things to people who play too much.
 
Waiting 3 weeks for EG resets to get your actionset for PvP #hardcore.
 
Buying crafted from AH to skip everything till 20 man's save for attunement #hardcore.
 
Skipping half the dungeon for attunement #hardcore.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The amp and the ability points are not meant to be granted in a short amount of time.. these are here to reward players that intend to stay for the long haul. There are many games out there that reward player loyalty this way. Now granted the elder gem reward cap is a bit low vs the cost of items in the vender but the intent is the same if you want the shiny you gotta work for it.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Nope.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The amp and the ability points are not meant to be granted in a short amount of time.. these are here to reward players that intend to stay for the long haul. There are many games out there that reward player loyalty this way. Now granted the elder gem reward cap is a bit low vs the cost of items in the vender but the intent is the same if you want the shiny you gotta work for it.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
My biggest gripe was farming tomes and guys. guys new boss. It's Titan/ifrit/garuda again. Guys! Super new boss fight! It's Titan/ifrit/garuda again harder. Guys! Super new boss fight! It's Titan/ifrit/garuda again harderx2.
 
Other than that I miss my fae-fae heals.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
But I keep hearing my spellslinger will be competitive in dps and heals after we all get our max amps/ability points.
 
Do I continue to hold everyone back for a few years?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Try explaining that to Carbine in a couple months when they start balancing around maxed amps/ability points when almost nobody has them. Better yet in two years (assuming the game survives that long) when everybody has them except the new players who will have to wait for 6 months to get the amp/ability points. Yes wait. There's no skill or hardcore involved in waiting a week for your cap to reset. Just pure sub time. This game isn't set up for growing in subs at all. Just dwindling.
 
This game is already designed to be f2p. Pay $50 for one amp point incoming.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
works well enough for EVE where your training is just straight sub time. sure, back in the day you could let your sub lapse and come back when the skill timer had run down. no actual skill involved with that.
 
last I checked EVE is still around and is not F2P
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
works well enough for EVE where your training is just straight sub time. sure, back in the day you could let your sub lapse and come back when the skill timer had run down. no actual skill involved with that.
 
last I checked EVE is still around and is not F2P
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
If your a good player you shouldn't be holding anyone back..
 
I cant think of any content off the top of my head that cant be completed because you don't have cap on your skill or amp points....
----
			Personally, I can't imagine what anyone could see in FFXIV, but it is one of those games with a long brand name history and people get attached to that sometimes more than the game they actually are playing. It is telling though that a good deal of the people who complain 1-2 hours a day, everyday on Wildstar's forums, are the only people I hear saying anything good about this game. I mean really, if its so good, why are you all spending so much time on the Wildstar forums? Can't imagine buying, resubbing, and then spending hours a day complaining about a game I hated that much, for as long as you have.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Try explaining that to Carbine in a couple months when they start balancing around maxed amps/ability points when almost nobody has them. Better yet in two years (assuming the game survives that long) when everybody has them except the new players who will have to wait for 6 months to get the amp/ability points. Yes wait. There's no skill or hardcore involved in waiting a week for your cap to reset. Just pure sub time. This game isn't set up for growing in subs at all. Just dwindling.
 
This game is already designed to be f2p. Pay $50 for one amp point incoming.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I haven't heard any statements from carbine that you will have to be cap at your points to do any of the upcomming content.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You noticed that too huh?  Seems par for the course around here... either posts vanish or threads get locked/relocated-into-limbo... how dare anyone be able to think alike, agree alike, or actually point out actual truths. :D
 
Kind of reminds me of video-splicing... where you make it appear/seem like a conversation is verbalized one way, when it was completely not spoken that way whatsoever. :P)
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I haven't heard any statements from carbine that you will have to be cap at your points to do any of the upcomming content.
 
Nah it will be like most other games that have a similar system new players will see its a time sink.. and play like nothing is happening putting the notion of getting more points on the back burner with intent to get them later.. like many players have done already.
 
And no its not designed to be F2P...its designed specifically to be sub.. thats why you got shit thats going to take quite a while to complete..
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Whats funny is Wildstar may very well be the game that brings the issue finally into the spot light if the dwindling player numbers are as bad as I've seen.
 
It would be a victory and a tragedy at the same time if at once the WS community reacted as one and unsubbed proving that we are as mad as hell and we're not gonna take it anymore.
----
			
Hey Folks,
 
Few things. Posts that are off topic are being removed. We don't allow for discussion of disciplinary actions on the forums as per the code of conduct, which you can read here. Please try to remain on topic and not resort to name calling, insults, trolling, or spam. 
 
Thanks
- Team WildStar 	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I get that we're a different breed of people and I appreciate the scope of mmo's and the amount of talent/work needed to create a world (themepark) from scratch.
 
However, all developers past, present and future have had/will have the ability to learn from all the lessons learned from the last 10 years and either update, fix them or get rid of them entirely.
 
Going past your suspense and allowing sub-par products to be released to the public is not only unethical, it's unprofessional and does nothing but hurt future opportunities for profit/market gain.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Considering Wildstar was supposed to be the game to break the mold and it hasn't. "This game is for the jaded MMO players." It sure as *cupcake*is, it's proof that people don't learn from their mistakes.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 I think it was gw2 that calimed they where breaking the mold.. which they did..and in the process lost the glue to put it back together again
 
WS just claimed... hardcore!...and chua's, but mostly hardcore!
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Hey Folks,
 
Few things. Posts that are off topic are being removed. We don't allow for discussion of disciplinary actions on the forums as per the code of conduct, which you can read here. Please try to remain on topic and not resort to name calling, insults, trolling, or spam. 
 
Thanks
- Team WildStar 
----
			
 Well in six months or so if you still playing.. you might be running around the city yelling ..inspect me!!!
See that!!
Im Capped baby!!!
And these scars on my face i earned them to!!!
 
Sorry I just had to be funny with this one.. :lol:	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
New theme for discussion: [mod removed the embedded image so have this link] http://a.pomf.se/texncq.jpg
 
I think sticking it out and hoping things change is actually counterproductive, as voting with your wallet is the best way to voice your concerns directly to the company. If you keep paying, the company thinks things are okay. If you leave, even to go inactive for a bit and come back "when things are fixed", you're communicating that things do, in fact, need fixing to keep you as a customer.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Agreed.
 
Hit the profit margin, people get yelled at, things change.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Considering Wildstar was supposed to be the game to break the mold and it hasn't. "This game is for the jaded MMO players." It sure as *cupcake*is, it's proof that people don't learn from their mistakes.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Or the company could listen to it's employees(and customers) that are saying that shit's busted. I know, it's crazy.
----
			
Since "splicing" is kind of a thing, thought I might toss in one of my own:	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Or the company could listen to it's employees(and customers) that are saying that shit's busted. I know, it's crazy.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
New theme for discussion: [mod removed the embedded image so have this link] http://a.pomf.se/texncq.jpg
 
I think sticking it out and hoping things change is actually counterproductive, as voting with your wallet is the best way to voice your concerns directly to the company. If you keep paying, the company thinks things are okay. If you leave, even to go inactive for a bit and come back "when things are fixed", you're communicating that things do, in fact, need fixing to keep you as a customer.
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{| class="blockquote"
I'm just surprised at how they got so much wrong despite their love of Metrics(Hey let's not do what that uber-successful game is doing now. Let's do what they did 10 years ago!!!! lol). I think they listened to Mr. Jaded way too much. Mr. Jaded wants you  to rebuild and compete with his memory. Mr. Jaded has no idea what makes a good MMORPG. He's too busy being resentful of that popular MMORPG success overshadowing and killing the MMO he wishes they all were instead of recognizing what that popular MMORPG does well.
 
This MMORPG was made for the Jaded MMORPGer. Too bad for Carbine that the reality is MOST of us enjoyed our time in that popular MMORPG. Being as fundamentally good and philosophically different as that popular MMORPG but not so far away from the standards it set that you appear radical or even Archaic, while being Mechanically different but in a good way, is a much better idea than chasing Jaded MMORPG players. They are typically stuck in the past, borderline masochistic or paranoid that they won't be as good. Carbine listened to them and here we are.
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Thats part of the problem right there.. is hoping there will be change.. there will be change to what degree who know's
 
I don't play the game to wait i play the game cuz i got friends and guildmates who do and we find stuff to do despite whether or not we disagree with some of the elements in the game..Sure ive had plenty of moments where i logged out look at the ceiling and say"Why!"
 
The game isn't bad enough for me to want to quit atm. Actually quite the opposite.. and im no fanboy of the game by any means. I do have my concerns mostly with faction balances and the customization being as bad as it is..as well as itemization but so far most of these are issues that carbine has intent on dealing with..
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I'm just surprised at how they got so much wrong despite their love of Metrics(Hey let's not do what that uber-successful game is doing now. Let's do what they did 10 years ago!!!! lol). I think they listened to Mr. Jaded way too much. Mr. Jaded wants you  to rebuild and compete with his memory. Mr. Jaded has no idea what makes a good MMORPG. He's too busy being resentful of that popular MMORPG success overshadowing and killing the MMO he wishes they all were instead of recognizing what that popular MMORPG does well.
 
This MMORPG was made for the Jaded MMORPGer. Too bad for Carbine that the reality is MOST of us enjoyed our time in that popular MMORPG. Being as fundamentally good and philosophically different as that popular MMORPG but not so far away from the standards it set that you appear radical or even Archaic, while being Mechanically different but in a good way, is a much better idea than chasing Jaded MMORPG players. They are typically stuck in the past, borderline masochistic or paranoid that they won't be as good. Carbine listened to them and here we are.
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Meh I tried to wait it out.
 
I know patience is a virtue, but online gamers are notorious for being impatient. Myself included.
 
I'm not sure how many new MMO's have gone down this road, but it's quite a few. They release with some fresh, good ideas; then take entirely too long to get serious issues worked out. People have been impatient about these things since the start of gaming, so that is not going to change.
 
They should have kept the game in beta and fixed all the issues that were pretty obvious after release. It was not ready to be released. The only MMO that will actually be able to compete with the market giant will have to release nearly perfect. 
 
So here we have it. A lot of us gamers are impatient and have high standards. Anyone that wants to be successful in this market will have to adapt and overcome to those means. We aren't going to change. The development process needs to change.	
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Meh I tried to wait it out.
 
I know patience is a virtue, but online gamers are notorious for being impatient. Myself included.
 
I'm not sure how many new MMO's have gone down this road, but it's quite a few. They release with some fresh, good ideas; then take entirely too long to get serious issues worked out. People have been impatient about these things since the start of gaming, so that is not going to change.
 
They should have kept the game in beta and fixed all the issues that were pretty obvious after release. It was not ready to be released. The only MMO that will actually be able to compete with the market giant will have to release nearly perfect. 
 
So here we have it. A lot of us gamers are impatient and have high standards. Anyone that wants to be successful in this market will have to adapt and overcome to those means. We aren't going to change. The development process needs to change.
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{| class="blockquote"
Meh I tried to wait it out.
 
I know patience is a virtue, but online gamers are notorious for being impatient. Myself included.
 
I'm not sure how many new MMO's have gone down this road, but it's quite a few. They release with some fresh, good ideas; then take entirely too long to get serious issues worked out. People have been impatient about these things since the start of gaming, so that is not going to change.
 
They should have kept the game in beta and fixed all the issues that were pretty obvious after release. It was not ready to be released. The only MMO that will actually be able to compete with the market giant will have to release nearly perfect. 
 
So here we have it. A lot of us gamers are impatient and have high standards. Anyone that wants to be successful in this market will have to adapt and overcome to those means. We aren't going to change. The development process needs to change.
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All I know is the few people I managed to con into trying WS have all left and went back to that other game.
 
They are now pestering me to come back after a 4 year hiatus and I am now seriously considering it....some thing I swore I'd never do.
 
I do enjoy combat here immensely but it's over all just to frustrating and basically unrewarding to play when it comes right down to it.	
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WoD soon....and with it goes a large amount of subs around here.
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I've heard numerous clanmates tell me that I should just "wait out" the low pops, bugs and pvp imbalances.
 
Is this now what is considered acceptable in mmo's? 
 
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Glad to see every single one of them go. I know I know: "Hurr have fun playing alone!"
 
I don't care. Anything is better than the "I can't wait to resub to WoW" crowd.
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Wow, just looked at that link... knew the numbers were good, wasn't aware THAT good... nice!  Gonna' have to bookmark that... we're on server Malboro. B)
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