100786-itemization-and-stats-in-wildstar-whats-being-done-about-it-page-3

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			can we do something like final fantasy 14? Just put down all servers for atleast 3 month again and finish the developement of wildstar?	
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can we do something like final fantasy 14? Just put down all servers for atleast 3 month again and finish the developement of wildstar?
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who  honestly  would  sit  through  another  year of  beta and   another $60 for   wildstar: elden  reborn?
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What's the solution, though?
If the best that crafted gear can be is entry level into adventures then it's going to be utterly worthless. Why waste time crafting when you can run vet adventures and get elder gems, faction rep, and gear all at once?
I'd like to avoid that scenario because crafting in this game is actually interesting.
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Then what is the point of doing adventure and dungeons other than raid requirements if your crafted gear is better/same than adventure/dungeon gear.
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Because you can build a big ole set of purple gear that when stat weight patch goes through you'll be one up on those min-maxing crafted types.
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Then what is the point of doing adventure and dungeons other than raid requirements if your crafted gear is better/same than adventure/dungeon gear.
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Actually I was replying to this
 
'If the best that crafted gear can be is entry level into adventures then it's going to be utterly worthless. Why waste time crafting when you can run vet adventures and get elder gems, faction rep, and gear all at once?'
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Top level crafted gear isn't exactly easy to make. It's not like you hit 50 and boom you outgear the content. With effort, though, you can craft really good items.
 
You act like the raid requirements in dungeons are a breeze. Adventures, sure.
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Top level crafted gear isn't exactly easy to make. It's not like you hit 50 and boom you outgear the content. With effort, though, you can craft really good items.
 
You act like the raid requirements in dungeons are a breeze. Adventures, sure.
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The gearing up part is a breeze.
 
If your guild has crafters, they day you hit 50 you can be BiS geared until 40 mans.
 
Now learning your rotations and learning the fights are all you have to do.
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That's a fair point, if the guild has crafters who can make the stuff.
 
Like I said though, what's the point of spending time to learn how to craft if the best you can make is sub-par adventure gear? You can run vet adventures in greens if you're good, and in the hours you'll spend leveling crafting you could be running adventures for reputation, gold, and gear all at once.
 
There has to be a reason to level crafting other than "hey look I made this stuff, let me rp that I'm a leatherworker!"
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Make crafting mats drop from bosses (rare) to make powerful rare items.
 
But I am sure I am in the minority and it's an old, old way of playing.
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Someone else suggested this a while back, actually. Have bosses drop mats to make crafted items and do away with some of the RNG item drops. That would be amazing, and it would definitely give a reason to level crafting.
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I prefer the crafting just the way it is - it allows people who hate running dungeons a way to craft decent gear - there is no need to tie everything to dungeons.  Itf they would do something like that, make it rare drops off of WORLD bosses, rares, primes - now that would be fine.
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I prefer the crafting just the way it is - it allows people who hate running dungeons a way to craft decent gear - there is no need to tie everything to dungeons.  Itf they would do something like that, make it rare drops off of WORLD bosses, rares, primes - now that would be fine.
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I prefer the crafting just the way it is - it allows people who hate running dungeons a way to craft decent gear - there is no need to tie everything to dungeons.  Itf they would do something like that, make it rare drops off of WORLD bosses, rares, primes - now that would be fine.
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J-Tal, I feel like you're just doubling-down on a bad system.
 
While I was dismissive of the idea at first, it really is starting to feel like rune slots are the contingency for additional F2P income. We currently dread looking at slots for drops in GA because there isn't even "optimal" and "sub-optimal". There is good and bad. And the vast majority of possible rolls are bad. And if there isn't enough good, it's not an upgrade. So the feeling is never "delight" when there are good rune slots, it's more just relief that the item isn't complete *cupcake*ing garbage.
 
Outside of an F2P plan, there's only a few possible upsides to this system:
 
1 - It keeps PvP currency spending relevant/allows for upgrades.
2 - Raiders that are farming for items have a longer time period of interest in farming.
 
Unfortunately, those upsides are not the upsides that they should or could be. No one sees rune slots as a viable method of customizing gear for different specs. Because crit, crit severity, and strikethough are just hugely inferior stats. Set bonuses are just so wildly hit or miss. Everything about the system is way too complex/bad.
 
Honestly, the itemization, the stat system, and the rune systems are all really really really bad. Without melodrama, I'd say that if your team cannot solve these issues and actually make a good system, there isn't reason to play the game because I just sort of have a fundamental lack of trust on both the motivations and quality of the systems.	
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Thats the issue.  The fact that it allows player to bypass running group content is the problem.   If you hate running dungeons, what the hell are you doing playing a PvE-centric MMORPG marketed for people who liked hardcore dungeons?  There can be no alternative to dungeons, because if its easyer and give equal rewards, thats what min maxers everywhere will be doing.  Crafting needs to be intergrated in the PvE game, not put aside as a side-game.  That means requiring boss items to craft the best gear.
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Honestly, the itemization, the stat system, and the rune systems are all really really really bad.
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Can we expect these changes for Drop 3 or do we have to wait longer than that?
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Yea, some heads up on when you should expect changes would be nice.
 
As it is my account is frozen and I'm waiting for a fix that fixes things to be implemented before i re-sub.	
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As of current system, crafting OP.
 
As of proposed system, Crafting on par with most drops aside from purples.
 
It'll be a good way to gear up and get ready to farm purples in theory.
 
Also, needs more crafted costumes. Lots more. Like Torine armor set. Things crafters can make and sell to me.
 
 
 
 
 
Personally I'd like items to wear down and need crafters to repair or items break and turn into salvage only stuff.
 
Make crafting mats drop from bosses (rare) to make powerful rare items.
 
But I am sure I am in the minority and it's an old, old way of playing.
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That is part of it, yes. A quick look at the currently available Runes and it is immediately evident that some Elements are optimal, some are ok, but sub-optimal and some are just bad. Ideally, there shouldn't be any Elements that you simply don't want at all or actively loathe rolling. Now, as someone mentioned earlier, it is nigh-impossible to make all things equal. And that's pretty much true. But I am very confident that we can get the different Elements to be close enough so that when you get 2 Water, you aren't completely bummed and just salvage the item because it's garbage for you. But maintain that feeling when you do roll those 2 Fire slots, and you are super excited with your optimal roll.
 
We are also considering other ways to mitigate getting sub-optimal Elements.
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			I'm glad they are nerfing crafting gear inline with the reward nerf. Doesn't make sense why only the players who love dungeons gets punish while those who love crafting instead of dungeons get scot free.	
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Top level crafted gear isn't exactly easy to make. It's not like you hit 50 and boom you outgear the content. With effort, though, you can craft really good items.
 
You act like the raid requirements in dungeons are a breeze. Adventures, sure.
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A huge reason most people aren't as happy as the Item dev seems to think is because every time something drops, you gotta think;
 
-How any runes of what set am I earning
-How many runes of what set am I losing from my old piece (no way to see in the UI unless going to rune table)
-How much is this going to cost me to re-rune this new item
-How much is it going to cost me to re-rune other items to adapt my runesets to new piece.
 
What you're left with is a world of sidegrades and "meh, not sure I want to spend DKP (or whatever) on this" instead of YAY my item dropped!
 
It leaves a tedious and un-rewarding system which sucks the fun out of actually getting drops, especially considering how bloated the loot tables can be.
 
Maybe if the amount of runes colors were cut in half.	
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I wont keep playing the micro-quoting game.  I dont believe you are quite as dense as you are pretending to be and I tire of this charade.
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If I had to just sum up what I feel is going on here, its that the class design team hasn't made stats worthwhile and the itemization team has just thrown at a dartboard for what stats and weights to follow on items.
 
When you have 5man content and most of the items that drop are a downgrade or side-grade from crafted items, I can only assume some serious miss-communication has ensued.
 
 
Never mind the fact that you for some reason chose to put a huge load more AP on the PVP 1800 weapons than anything you can get from similar PVE content. Did you know AP was going to be so strong? (If not, why the hell not? Its pretty obvious)
 
My feeling is that Class design, item design and PVE content design need to sit down and decide what item levels need to come from what content, provide a good progression from Crafting > Adventure > Dungeon > Raid and design AMPs and class skills that make you care about more than just AP.
 
PVP needs to be considered so that the PVP gear is always preferable for PVP content, I think the new PVP stats will maintain that easily if used properly. You do more damage to players and take less damage from players is always going to be a great control on that, it'll control the damage PVE gear can cause in a PVP setting and make geared PVPers able to handle full or partial PVE geared players. Craftable blue PVP gear can be obtained (I hope, not checked) so players have the option to go in to get PVP gear in PVE gear or get a foot on the PVP stat ladder via the AH or crafting.
 
At the moment it seems like the various design departments are not working in sync, you're giving us gear we would never want as rewards for doing difficult content. Players are lazy. They will always take the quickest path to the end, if given the choice (generalization - im sure some might say "NO WE DO IT THE HARD WAY" on principal but not the masses). At the moment the quickest path is to just craft a full set of "OP" gear, rune it up, attune and raid.
 
Personally I'd much rather have had a cool progression from 50 quest gear to pre-raid gear, enjoying the genuinely well designed dungeons and encounters as I go while feeling like I'm being rewarded with upgrades.
 
As it is at the moment I've levelled 3 50s and geared them all with crafting, and I'm sat getting bored with dailies because I can't motivate my group of friends to do dungeon content because its a lot of effort with nothing but the achievement to show for it at the end. That may be enough for some folks, I enjoy a bit of that myself, but shiny shiny purples is a way more successful way to do this imo.	
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It'll probably be next year.
 
I typed out something much longer, but it was incredibly out of line and offensive. I main Esper and I'm far from a happy player.
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Alright, I apologize for my earlier post being excessively inflammatory relative to its actual substance. Let me try to even it up.
 
Here's a non-exhaustive list of places where the itemization team has failed, limiting myself to DPS which I'm most knowledgeable about:
Stat formulae out of whack, leading to almost everything not AP being almost useless... 1 Crit Severity Rating in particular is worth some miniscule fraction of an AP point
Best in Slot weapons for PvE are from PvP, what the hell?!
Many dropped items having nonsensical stats (e.g. http://www.wildstarloot.com/item/hollowed-canines among many)
Even more dropped items wasting stat budget on grit for non-tanks or brutality for healers, and this is extremely frequent
Miscommunication or non-coordination with crafting team, leading to 2/3 of Best in Slot items coming from crafted gear prior to freaking Datascape
Purple adventure loot being generally better than purple dungeon loot, based on my experience along with BiS lists I've seen. Turns out this is moot anyway due to the above issues with crafted loot.
Runes (as covered in this thread)
May or may not be the itemization team, but Adventus schematics are usually worse than corresponding Epochos and/or Expert non-research schematics, mostly due to having awful specials or missing important ones
Based on the extent of the brokenness of itemization in its current state, I think nothing short of an overhaul and corresponding gear reset will get it to be on the same level as in the competition.
 
I will conclude by saying that broken itemization is not something that would make me quit the game, because I raid for the challenge, not the rewards. That said, the fact that GA loot mostly gets salvaged, or at best given to someone not informed/motivated enough to min/max their crafted gear is just an embarrassment.	
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Didn't read the entire thread but here's my thought(s).
 
I didn't even bother with runes leveling. I doubt most people do. You replace gear way too quickly. Soooooo.... put rune slots in something that you keep for a long ass time. Put them in costume pieces. BAM! 	
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			J-Tal can you please make me understand why you guys won't come off the rng for slots? Players wanna be able to get BiS pieces the first time they drop ect-I mean in WoW you had a clear gear map, you knew where to go for what because it would have X socket/stat/whatever. You would run this gear treadmill through dungeons and raids until you and your guild had BiS and then rinse repeat when the next content tier came out. We don't want a way to sink more in game currency into fixing gear that should just have fixed slots in the first place. Please please please give me some real reason you guys cant just fix slots. If something from each element is gonna be appealing this really should not be an issue. Just make them fixed dammit : /	
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J-Tal can you please make me understand why you guys won't come off the rng for slots? Players wanna be able to get BiS pieces the first time they drop ect-I mean in WoW you had a clear gear map, you knew where to go for what because it would have X socket/stat/whatever. You would run this gear treadmill through dungeons and raids until you and your guild had BiS and then rinse repeat when the next content tier came out. We don't want a way to sink more in game currency into fixing gear that should just have fixed slots in the first place. Please please please give me some real reason you guys cant just fix slots. If something from each element is gonna be appealing this really should not be an issue. Just make them fixed dammit : /
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If you fix the slots and only had to get the drop once, wheres the replay value in that?
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If you fix the slots and only had to get the drop once, wheres the replay value in that?
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J-Tal can you please make me understand why you guys won't come off the rng for slots? Players wanna be able to get BiS pieces the first time they drop ect-I mean in WoW you had a clear gear map, you knew where to go for what because it would have X socket/stat/whatever. You would run this gear treadmill through dungeons and raids until you and your guild had BiS and then rinse repeat when the next content tier came out. We don't want a way to sink more in game currency into fixing gear that should just have fixed slots in the first place. Please please please give me some real reason you guys cant just fix slots. If something from each element is gonna be appealing this really should not be an issue. Just make them fixed dammit : /
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Part of the problem is people have perception issues.
 
Given 2 situations
 
1) 10% chance to get an item, then the item have 1 in 3 chance of having the right rune slot
 
2) 3.33% chance to get an item with the right rune slot.
 
Some people will want the 2nd option, even though the 2 options are identical - and the first option will give you more loot to sell.	
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Because then it would be just like WoW. Who wants a predictable "gear map"? That's just a list of chores to do.
 
The random elements add some fun and variety… you're not likely to *ever* have what you perceive to be the BiS in stats AND runes on the same gear, so only chase it to where you feel the return on your time investment is worth it. All stats are worth at least something to all classes in WildStar as opposed to WoW.
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Serious players? The success of WoW can't be knocked btw. In all they have done wrong they did a lot right and more dev teams should take note instead of trying to completely reinvent the wheel because this genre is not ready for that. No I don't want the same game but I wan't some certainty in my character's progression, a worthwhile investment of my time, less rng. I am not alone. The raid loot should be difficult to attain because of boss mechanics not because I feel I have to keep going to get the same drop only a *little" better. It's not fun-period. Raiders do not want this. The game also does not need more currency sinks so providing a way to "fix" the sockets isn't really acceptable either. If this was not a sub based game I wouldn't see any issues with the current system....but it is. Content is supposed to keep me occupied not rng and that's what I was told would the deal. Theres a good attunement process and challenging fights in the game-the loot from said content should be good enough to be BiS the FIRST time it drops. Still not a good reason provided to keep the rng slots-sorry would you like to try for 200?
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Newsflash - RNG is what kept you occupied in WoW, as well. Not content. The item hunt was all RNG.
 
There are some additional layers in WildStar but I don't see a problem with it. You're going to be progressing through this content week in and week out for months, you'll have may opportunities to "upgrade" your item when a better roll appears.
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DKP for RNG! Sounds like a catch song title.
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 Yeah man it totally doesn't promote toxicity to roll on an item you already have and feeling justified because "IT HAS BETTER RUNES!" 
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Yeah man it totally doesn't promote toxicity to roll on an item you already have and feeling justified because "IT HAS BETTER RUNES!"
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Newsflash - RNG is what kept you occupied in WoW, as well. Not content. The item hunt was all RNG.
 
There are some additional layers in WildStar but I don't see a problem with it. You're going to be progressing through this content week in and week out for months, you'll have may opportunities to "upgrade" your item when a better roll appears.
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No. Drop or not RNG is totally fine. Your DKP "works itself out" thing is so totally wrong btw. You seem rather green honestly. Like someone in highschool talking about politics. All the adults shake their heads and palm their faces.
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If you feel it's worth the DKP, or whatever points system your team is using… it works itself out.
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If you fix the slots and only had to get the drop once, wheres the replay value in that?
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Getting other drops... unlocking imbuements (something I think they should expand to all gear, IMO)...
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Even more dropped items wasting stat budget on grit for non-tanks or brutality for healers, and this is extremely frequent
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Because then it would be just like WoW. Who wants a predictable "gear map"? That's just a list of chores to do.
 
 
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Lots of people. That is literally the point of an MMO. 
 
Your vision of this game dooms it to failure. WoW's system is better. 
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Lots of people. That is literally the point of an MMO. 
 
Your vision of this game dooms it to failure. WoW's system is better.
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No, that isn't even close to the point of an MMO. That specifically is a formula that WoW created. It's WoW's point.
 
The current itemization system in WildStar could use some tweaks, but making it predictable like WoW's is not the right choice. Neither is adding more currency, or easier access to rewards.
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Getting other drops... unlocking imbuements (something I think they should expand to all gear, IMO)...
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MMOs before WoW had this itemization as well, maybe not as clearly laid out but they were there. EQ had it.
 
I'm not saying they have to follow WoW to the T, but they need to fix the item system. It only shows that they didn't really understand how bad the RNG system they created was and now they are too stubborn to admit it. (And don't say the normalization of rune slots is a fix, because it isn't. They need to make the rune slots changeable at the least)
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So we are atm 4/6 GA.
 
What we see is: 90% of the items that drop per RAID NO ONE wants because they got shitty runeslots and roughly 10% are ok/good which everyone wants.
 
THIs Double RNG is NOT good for raids. Why? Because many ppl already feel its not worth to raid for that 10% chance of an item actually having "good" runeslots per week. It doesn´t feel rewarding when u have to through drops away or ppl just take them for the hopes something will get fixed.
 
So here are some simple solutions:
fix runeslots to be static in raiddrops and implement something like "heroic" versions with a bit higher statsbudget pretty much like in WoW where u had heroic gear and heroic thunderforged f.e.
or let us reroll the colours for some gold on them (u know like D3, make every roll on them a bit more expensive, but dont go the 1st roll 1plat, 2nd roll 10plat way, thx)
or change the statweights for classes so AP is not greater all and everything and fire,fire,fusion stops beeing absolutly BiS
 
I know some changes are already beeing discussed etc.. i hope it doens´t take the devs two more drops, by that time no one of our ppl will raid/play anymore :(	
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So we are atm 4/6 GA.
 
What we see is: 90% of the items that drop per RAID NO ONE wants because they got shitty runeslots and roughly 10% are ok/good which everyone wants.
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This isn't 100% blame on the game, some of it is blame to be placed on the raiders as well. They are approaching it the wrong way. Sure, it would be nice to get the best item with the best stats and best rune slots for your class. But since the system makes that very hard to realistically achieve, you should be going for the best item *available to you* - that's the key point. What is the best item available to you at any point in time?
 
Not saying there couldn't be improvements... for example, maybe the boss could drop "all" of the items from their loot table every kill, increasing the number of times you see the item you want (and maybe getting a better roll on it).
 
There are lots of potential improvements, but the biggest thing in my opinion is for players to stop looking at gearing up in WildStar like they would in another game.
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This isn't 100% blame on the game, some of it is blame to be placed on the raiders as well. They are approaching it the wrong way. Sure, it would be nice to get the best item with the best stats and best rune slots for your class. But since the system makes that very hard to realistically achieve, you should be going for the best item *available to you* - that's the key point. What is the best item available to you at any point in time?
 
Not saying there couldn't be improvements... for example, maybe the boss could drop "all" of the items from their loot table every kill, increasing the number of times you see the item you want (and maybe getting a better roll on it).
 
There are lots of potential improvements, but the biggest thing in my opinion is for players to stop looking at gearing up in WildStar like they would in another game.
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Here's the thing, 90% of raiders aren't there for the achievements and the titles and the killing of the bosses (maybe the first time and second time) but after they get the content on farm they are there for the loot. That is what sustains a game a ton longer than anything else, people want to raid for the chance of that awesome item to drop and will continue to do the content for this. You can clear a dungeon a few times for the encounters and how fun it is but after the initial "honeymoon period" has worn off and the dungeon is on farm the only reason people are going to continue running is for the sweet sweet lewts. Period. End of story.
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All raid drops should be maxed rune slots allowed. If the kind is not wanted that's the players fault really, Wait till the AP/SP runes are fixed and hopefully the rune sets are reworked, maybe then people won't complain as much about what runes they drop with.
 
Anyways with the changes probably coming I would keep every drop that was decent and wait it out.	
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Disagree. Any serious raider is doing it for the sake of progression. Loot is just a byproduct of that. They want to move forward as much as they can... loot is secondary.
 
It's always nice to get that perfect piece of loot though, of course. Which is why I like WildStar's system... you can get a great piece of loot, or a perfect piece of loot... or something in between. If you get the item you wanted, but without perfect rune slots? Use it if it's an upgrade. If not, if you kill the boss again, maybe you'll get your perfect roll then.
 
Any real raider will tell you loot is simply the means to an end - not their goal.
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Chua with lethality on idea, but pretty sure nobody get idea behind it.....or even willing to accept...
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Disagree. Any serious raider is doing it for the sake of progression. Loot is just a byproduct of that. They want to move forward as much as they can... loot is secondary.
 
It's always nice to get that perfect piece of loot though, of course. Which is why I like WildStar's system... you can get a great piece of loot, or a perfect piece of loot... or something in between. If you get the item you wanted, but without perfect rune slots? Use it if it's an upgrade. If not, if you kill the boss again, maybe you'll get your perfect roll then.
 
Any real raider will tell you loot is simply the means to an end - not their goal.
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The problem is shoving the square peg of 'just use the sub-optimal loot' with the round holes of vertical progression and competitive raiding. Heck, gunning for the BiS shinies is as old as the halcyon days of sainted Gygax himself.
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Disagree. Any serious raider is doing it for the sake of progression. Loot is just a byproduct of that. They want to move forward as much as they can... loot is secondary.
 
It's always nice to get that perfect piece of loot though, of course. Which is why I like WildStar's system... you can get a great piece of loot, or a perfect piece of loot... or something in between. If you get the item you wanted, but without perfect rune slots? Use it if it's an upgrade. If not, if you kill the boss again, maybe you'll get your perfect roll then.
 
Any real raider will tell you loot is simply the means to an end - not their goal.
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			Lethality and fanboy Olivar-you can dream your dream all you want. Money talks bullshit walks and thats the end of it. You can agree and like and cup each other's and Carbine's balls all you want but in the end the playerbase's money will be what makes or breaks this. The sub count in decline is going to be louder than you could ever be, so kick and scream about resisting a successful system all you want just because it's "like WoW". 40 mans plus shit like this will choke this game to a messy grave if nothing is done and that is just the way it is whether you want to accept it or not. You don't make a car with oval wheels and claim its close enough to the already successful round wheel but just different enough to be interesting-because it jut doesn't work as well and nothing you prefer or say changes that.	
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Lethality and fanboy Olivar-you can dream your dream all you want. Money talks bullshit walks and thats the end of it. You can agree and like and cup each other's and Carbine's balls all you want but in the end the playerbase's money will be what makes or breaks this. The sub count in decline is going to be louder than you could ever be, so kick and scream about resisting a successful system all you want just because it's "like WoW". 40 mans plus shit like this will choke this game to a messy grave if nothing is done and that is just the way it is whether you want to accept it or not. You don't make a car with oval wheels and claim its close enough to the already successful round wheel but just different enough to be interesting-because it jut doesn't work as well and nothing you prefer or say changes that.
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So we are atm 4/6 GA.
 
What we see is: 90% of the items that drop per RAID NO ONE wants because they got shitty runeslots and roughly 10% are ok/good which everyone wants.
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Lethality and fanboy Olivar-you can dream your dream all you want. Money talks bullshit walks and thats the end of it. You can agree and like and cup each other's and Carbine's balls all you want but in the end the playerbase's money will be what makes or breaks this. The sub count in decline is going to be louder than you could ever be, so kick and scream about resisting a successful system all you want just because it's "like WoW". 40 mans plus shit like this will choke this game to a messy grave if nothing is done and that is just the way it is whether you want to accept it or not. You don't make a car with oval wheels and claim its close enough to the already successful round wheel but just different enough to be interesting-because it jut doesn't work as well and nothing you prefer or say changes that.
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			Assuming I'm mad because I form an opinion based on what I can see then projecting yourself as some kind of pseudo moral superior asking that I not be the assumed "mad" and contribute to the topic as if I haven't already. Lets see if I can put this in terms you will understand. I think chua should play in traffic. Yaaay RP to be witty and cute. Cool right? Cool? No? No.	
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			Stand in front of a semi and say that your perception is that it wont hurt. Reality is reality. I hope you dont leave your house if you think that way honestly. I can make pointed comments on here all day without being angry whatsoever and thats just reality. Perceive how you will  though and steer clear of trucks.	
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Clearly my point is more about online interactions and less about playing in traffic. ;)
 
On the internet no one can see your face or hear your voice. They can only read your text and infer from its contents your tone. Your percieved tone is angry therefore people assume you're angry. That is why, at least here, perception is reality. Whether you're actually mad or not is irrelevant.	
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{| class="blockquote"
This. Imbuement is one of those features I had very high hopes for in beta.
Then I ended up getting a single imbuement drop while playing two characters to level cap (apart from the guaranteed tutorial quest reward that introduces the system).
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Hey everyone,
 
Let's get this thread back on topic and ditch  the personal jabs. Keep it constructive, civil, and free of personal attacks.
 
Thanks,Team WildStar	
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{| class="blockquote"
What we see is: 90% of the items that drop per RAID NO ONE wants because they got shitty runeslots and roughly 10% are ok/good which everyone wants.
 
----
			
If J-Tal delivers, awesome.  Time to wait for the patch notes.
 
(Not to imply that he won't.  Just saying, good post Red.)	
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{| class="blockquote"
In addition to looking at Runes, we are also fixing up some of the raid loot tables and items. We will be looking at raid itemization in the next couple of weeks and focusing on two main issues (that are not Rune related):
 
1) Some raid drops are really weird, bad or poorly optimized stat distributions and combinations. Nobody wants Deflect Critical on Light Armor. So we'll be cleaning up a lot of these oddly stated items.
2) Some boss tables are not as clean as they could be, considering the large number of available drops. A good example of this is that Ohmna has something like 56 potential drops (some of them really valuable and powerful weapons) but they're all rolled together. We would like to break this out a little more such that every Ohmna kill guarantees at least 1 weapon drop and 1 Class Set drop. Small changes like that make progression feel much smoother and much more rewarding.
----
			Still doesn't directly address why they're clinging to rng so much in the rune slots along the gearing path. This is what I want to hear about. Though his post does inspire some comfort so yay for that :)	
----
			There's always the option of letting Technologists change rune slots on gear... ;)	
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{| class="blockquote"
In addition to looking at Runes, we are also fixing up some of the raid loot tables and items. We will be looking at raid itemization in the next couple of weeks and focusing on two main issues (that are not Rune related):
 
1) Some raid drops are really weird, bad or poorly optimized stat distributions and combinations. Nobody wants Deflect Critical on Light Armor. So we'll be cleaning up a lot of these oddly stated items.
2) Some boss tables are not as clean as they could be, considering the large number of available drops. A good example of this is that Ohmna has something like 56 potential drops (some of them really valuable and powerful weapons) but they're all rolled together. We would like to break this out a little more such that every Ohmna kill guarantees at least 1 weapon drop and 1 Class Set drop. Small changes like that make progression feel much smoother and much more rewarding.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
We will be looking at raid itemization in the next couple of weeks and focusing on two main issues
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{| class="blockquote"
A good example of this is that Ohmna has something like 56 potential drops (some of them really valuable and powerful weapons) but they're all rolled together. We would like to break this out a little more such that every Ohmna kill guarantees at least 1 weapon drop and 1 Class Set drop. Small changes like that make progression feel much smoother and much more rewarding.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
In addition to looking at Runes, we are also fixing up some of the raid loot tables and items. We will be looking at raid itemization in the next couple of weeks and focusing on two main issues (that are not Rune related):
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
In addition to looking at Runes, we are also fixing up some of the raid loot tables and items. We will be looking at raid itemization in the next couple of weeks and focusing on two main issues (that are not Rune related):
 
1) Some raid drops are really weird, bad or poorly optimized stat distributions and combinations. Nobody wants Deflect Critical on Light Armor. So we'll be cleaning up a lot of these oddly stated items.
2) Some boss tables are not as clean as they could be, considering the large number of available drops. A good example of this is that Ohmna has something like 56 potential drops (some of them really valuable and powerful weapons) but they're all rolled together. We would like to break this out a little more such that every Ohmna kill guarantees at least 1 weapon drop and 1 Class Set drop. Small changes like that make progression feel much smoother and much more rewarding.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
OK... (1) is nice but it doesn't solve the problem of raid gear being inferior to crafted gear, even if you do fix the pieces that are just obviously senseless. I understand that this may not be a problem you can solve in the current tier since the tuning is already set, but don't waste your time fixing loot that will never get worn even in its "fixed" state and just spend your time making the next tier better, please.
 
(2) sounds good.
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{| class="blockquote"
That's a stat balance issue, not a crafting issue.  AP/SP are too powerful relative to other stats - which makes crafted gear with the majority of the stat distribution weighted towards the stat that gives a particular class AP or SP stronger than more "balanced" dungeon/adventure/raid gear.  They need to balance AP/SP, not "nerf" crafting other than limiting rune slots to no more than 3 (as much as I think that 4 should be possible using very very rare cores.)
----
			
I just bought 8 plat worth of Grovetender's mittens from Drusera faction Beloved. They cost about 18g each.
 
 
All of the runes were crap. over 90% of them rolled only 2 runeslots.
 
"Players will WANT to buy the item over and over and over again" -Jtal
 
Yeah I really enjoyed this. :|
 
 
edit: guess I'll have to settle for a 2 slot air:life because the four items that rolled 3 slots had logic or earth (not good for healer). None rolled 4 of the potential 2-4 rune slots.	
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{| class="blockquote"
I just bought 8 plat worth of Grovetender's mittens from Drusera faction Beloved. They cost about 18g each.
 
 
All of the runes were crap. 80% of them rolled 2 runeslots.
 
"Players will WANT to buy the item over and over and over again" -Jtal
 
Yeah I really enjoyed this. :|
 
 
edit: guess I'll have to settle for a 2 slot air:life because the four items that rolled 3 slots had logic or earth (not good for healer). None rolled 4 of the potential 2-4 rune slots.
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I'm not really sure I understand why raid loot is being singled out as "getting fixed".
 
its the 5man loot that had absolutely no progression value over craftables.
 
Yes you've already said craftables are over-tuned.. but what are you going to do about 5mans? I cannot motivate my friends to do any dungeons atm, they are hard (which is fun!) and take ages but what is the point in going through all that if you get no reward for doing so?
 
I'm sure there are people out there looking to play it for the challenge, and I would if I could, but I don't see how you can expect the 5mans to be a success with the loot tables so full of trash loot.
 
Yes, I want a progression system similar to wow (he said it!!) because its fun and rewarding. If you don't have both fun and reward, you're always going to find players who can't be bothered. 
 
(Actually you'd get much more success with no fun and great reward imo, you've got it the other way around which is a huge shame)	
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{| class="blockquote"
It is not. Our goal with crafting is that it should be very good, potentially (with overcharge) the BIS for that tier and that tier only. It should not be better than items a tier above it. There are two issues causing this that we are looking to address.
 
First is that crafted items have no minimum threshold for turning down stats you don't want so you can turn up stats you do. Non-crafted items do have a threshold. It's about 10% of the total budget (usually between 12-20%). So you can dump a ton of budget into the 'better' stats and make the crafted item better than intended.
 
Second is that crafted items are currently rolling way more Runes than intended. We are looking at adjusting these to something closer to:
Greens: 0-1
Blues: 2
Purples: 3
Legendary: 4-5
Artifact: 6
 
This is not definite, yet. But you will notice two big things:
1) There is almost no variance in Rune Count. (Rune elements are still mostly random, but each item's total power is static)
2) There is no overlap between quality tiers. (A purple is always better than blue is always better than green)
 
The bad news is, this actually nerfs quite a bit of items IF we go forward with it (it won't actually affect your existing items; so if you have, say, a blue item with 4 Runes, congrats, your item is OP!). The good news is, itemization balance will be much cleaner and there will be much less RNG and many more meaningful options and choice. We're still working out the details on exactly what changes are coming to Runecrafting and I'll be sure to have a thorough write up and explanation when we lock everything down.
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{| class="blockquote"
add a money sink and everyone wins.
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{| class="blockquote"
Still doesn't directly address why they're clinging to rng so much in the rune slots along the gearing path. This is what I want to hear about. Though his post does inspire some comfort so yay for that :)
----
			More RNG, gold sinks and grinding i assume :(	
----
			Still no addressing to my initial question. WHY WON'T YOU GIVE UP THE RNG!? Your playerbase is speaking to you right now. Your meal ticket. Go ask Firefall what happens when you ignore your playerbase, or GW2 lol. It is truly fascinating to watch each new team make the mistakes of those who have gone before them. I think theres honestly a disconnect between being a player and being a dev much like parents who have forgotten what it was like to be a kid. If the rng is meant to add longevity to the game because content wont be so easily pushed out as once promised then just come out and admit it..or ya know actually deliver on the content side of things and not crutch rng. You guys didn't hire Jay Wilson did you? We don't want half-assed fixes that come from half-assed listening. We don't want another gold sink for damn sure. We just want some real results. At this point I just want a legit reason gear cant drop with fixed sockets like it SHOULD.	
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I'd be more interested to see how they make rune slots useful and remove bad stats from items (tank stats on healing/dps gear etc).
 
Doesn't really matter how many slots and stat points you've got if they're not worth anything.	
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{| class="blockquote"
Still no addressing to my initial question. WHY WON'T YOU GIVE UP THE RNG!? Your playerbase is speaking to you right now. Your meal ticket. Go ask Firefall what happens when you ignore your playerbase, or GW2 lol. It is truly fascinating to watch each new team make the mistakes of those who have gone before them. I think theres honestly a disconnect between being a player and being a dev much like parents who have forgotten what it was like to be a kid. If the rng is meant to add longevity to the game because content wont be so easily pushed out as once promised then just come out and admit it..or ya know actually deliver on the content side of things and not crutch rng. You guys didn't hire Jay Wilson did you? We don't want half-assed fixes that come from half-assed listening. We don't want another gold sink for damn sure. We just want some real results. At this point I just want a legit reason gear cant drop with fixed sockets like it SHOULD.
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{| class="blockquote"
Because, it's the design of the game. It should be the player's choice if they want to continue to pursue a better version of their item, or if they are ok with using the one they already got. It adds a layer of depth...
 
If you don't like it, just ignore it - take the gear you get and move on. You will be fine.
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The most outrageous part is their rewarding early adapters by letting them keep their OP items from an exploit of the design, while implementing a change that will gut it for everyone who comes after the change.
 
They're essentially creating a subclass of players performancewise since the crafted 48 blues with 125 of a stat cost at worst 5 gold to make. These people will still keep blues that are better than some raiding items and better than adventure/dungeon purples, while the people that came later will be stuck with inferior gear until they get raid gear, which means waiting for months.
 
If you nerf shit, you nerf it for everyone. You don't grandfather OP stuff because you don't want to annoy exploiters with your *cupcake*ups.
 
The main reason people would be mad with the changes to begin with is because it took you so long to fix gear that beta testing told you was off, and the runeset materials are so hideously expensive. I mean, 60 gold for each augmented rune, 90 gold for fusion blast/firestarter a piece and you need 12 of that plus the rare signs. Are you serious.
 
Everything about this game's progression and rewards system reeks of a 90's MMO. Tedious, gigantic gearing goldsinks; RNG on top of RNG (first get the purple to drop, then have it as an esper possess fire runes because spellweaver only comes from fire, since life and water slots give useless stats like finesse).	
----
			I am SO surprised that the codding to this modern game still suffers what WOW did to chase so many players away.  I quit wow after 6.5 years of constant class nerf - all trying to balance PVE and PVP.  Ruin the toon in PVE so PVP works - then to the reverse.  CHANGE your code to have two sets - one for PVE and one for PVP and STOP mixing them up!  You should know when you are attacking player versus NPC.  Yes - i hear the thinking now - it's so scramble that it's not fixable.  What if you are attacking a world mob and your aoe hits another player and you go into pvp mode - again...this game was supposed to be designed from scratch.   Why do it the same way?	
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{| class="blockquote"
Because, it's the design of the game. It should be the player's choice if they want to continue to pursue a better version of their item, or if they are ok with using the one they already got. It adds a layer of depth...
 
If you don't like it, just ignore it - take the gear you get and move on. You will be fine.
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{| class="blockquote"
Pretty sure this thread exists because its not fine. I know it's not fine. Depth? No it is just frustrating when trying to min/max. Gear should be a clearly defined path. This is not a dungeon crawler this is a theme park mmo. Simply saying "its the design of the game" does not excuse that it's a bad design. There are better systems out there from much older games. Like I've said before no need to reinvent the wheel. A clearly defined gear map is what works. There is no point to the "choice" in accepting the item the way it drops when the fact is theres a better version of the same item out there (unless rngesus smiled on you). It's time spent running in place instead of moving forward and thats not good design and we should not have to accept it. Telling people to do so just makes you sound like a fanboy who is easily satisfied by mediocrity. I'm just not. I want and expect things to work and make good sense in both risk vs reward and time vs reward. This current way is not delivering. I want to play this game for years because of content tiers coming out not because I ran on one tier's treadmill for so long trying to get the perfect rolls on my items. It's just asinine.
Layered rng is not something that's ok. FIrst the item has a chance to drop then have a chance to be complete and utter trash? Why did I do all that work again? Where's my payout? Oh? Not there? So let say you run something 50 times and your item doesn't drop-then run 51 and it finally drops and you can't use it because the number of slots (will get fixed I know) and the slots themselves are just trash. In what way can you sit there and honestly say "ignore it and move on". Get real. Don't *cupcake* so hard for the game that you lose sight of what actually makes sense dude-c'mon.
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{| class="blockquote"
It IS fine - I am literal proof. I didn't farm BiS leveling gear until my eyes bled. I got whatever loot I got over the course of the attunement process, and now I'm attuned and raiding.
 
You need to lose the perception that this game should work like other games, because it doesn't and it shouldn't. Once you do that, you will have a lot more fun.
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{| class="blockquote"
It ISN'T fine and CRB has even stated this. They are looking into making it a better system, so defending a point that even the developers don't agree with just shows how much you only care about your own opinion.
 
And I am ok with this game not being the same as others, but at this point they have stated there are changes coming to make this better and they know that they are losing subs because of the current system
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{| class="blockquote"
It IS fine - I am literal proof. I didn't farm BiS leveling gear until my eyes bled. I got whatever loot I got over the course of the attunement process, and now I'm attuned and raiding.
 
You need to lose the perception that this game should work like other games, because it doesn't and it shouldn't. Once you do that, you will have a lot more fun.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You're assuming far too much based on what they said... you'll be back here weeping. I believe it's clear they're sticking to rng as much as possible on gear. Which makes my advice quite sound and applicable.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You're assuming far too much based on what they said... you'll be back here weeping. I believe it's clear they're sticking to rng as much as possible on gear. Which makes my advice quite sound and applicable.
----
			The combat system has already made wildstar a unique game that other games can't compare with, now all they need to do is to capitalise on it.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You're assuming far too much based on what they said... you'll be back here weeping. I believe it's clear they're sticking to rng as much as possible on gear. Which makes my advice quite sound and applicable.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The combat system has already made wildstar a unique game that other games can't compare with, now all they need to do is to capitalise on it.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Your advice isn't advice. You're telling people to shut up and color. Advice would be "here's how you can come closer to getting what you want under the current system."
 
I expect nothing less from you, honestly.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This brings a good point. That's all they really need. That and challenging REWARDING content. If the rng is their artistic vision then they need to plan to become starving artists because 2014 isn't interested in their 2005 brushstrokes.
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{| class="blockquote"
Not sound. Not acceptable. For yourself sure. Everyone else to lie down and get their time wasted? Just no. Like I said I'm glad you like it and all but when you're playing a dead game YOU will be weeping.
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{| class="blockquote"
You guys are so blind you can't even see that there's only a problem if you insist there is one.
 
Just *play the game*. Don't do anything outside of the normal course of play, and you will end up with perfectly fine and viable gear to progress.
 
You want (for whatever reason) BiS leveling gear? Then yes, you are going to have to work your ass off inside of this rng system. And rightfully so, because it's not intended to cough up BiS gear for you! They could take some of the edge off, but I wouldn't expect wholesale changes to this philosophy.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Don't get me wrong, there is a good version of RNG, it's just not the extreme they have created with the current loot system. They can have a very rewarding RNG system in place that allows players to still progress at a steady pace and not have crafted gear going into 40 man content, but they would need to change some things.
----
			Well the developers need to remember that thanks to the raid requirement, many players can't get into raids yet so they need to do dungeons in the meantime to prepare for raids. But they also need to get good gear before they raid and with the recent loot change they are no longer guarantee a good gear/weapon in dungeons and even if they do the stats are still RNG depended. Now unless they love to craft they are pretty much going to have gear problems before raids. So this discourages them and they just quit.	
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{| class="blockquote"
RNG should be whether you get the item or not, in my opinion. Not whether you get the item, whether it has good stats, AND whether it has good rune slots.
 
Being able to modify the items as you get them somehow, maybe in a reforging station or the like, would help a lot.
----
			In my opinion runes should be static on dungeon/raid gear and variable on crafted gear. That would fix all the things.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yeah a reforging would be nice as icing to the cake but not as a means to keep the rng in place. There is absolutely nothing wrong with bein able to get BiS loot for your current progression level. Once you move on you hunt for the gear you need at that stage. Simple stuff.
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{| class="blockquote"
Reforging would work best with a system of set stat values on items so people can min/max based on the gear they've got at the time. The triple RNG just seems like a really bad idea that someone ought to have caught in a meeting somewhere along the line.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
In my opinion runes should be static on dungeon/raid gear and variable on crafted gear. That would fix all the things.
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{| class="blockquote"
I can get on board with this for sure.
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{| class="blockquote"
Indeed. That way people looking for a specific drop will know exactly what they're getting. People hoping for a crafted alternative will need a little more luck since it's "easier" to obtain.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You would think a group of professionals getting paid could come to this conclusion...you would think. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I'm sure it's much more complicated than just flipping a switch or editing a few lines of code. The random runes could be ingrained into the very fabric of their itemization system and in this thread they're at least acknowledging that it sucks. I'm sure it seemed like a good and even innovative idea at the time but what we need to take away from that they're genuinely working on making it better so our criticism should be constructive.
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{| class="blockquote"
You would think a group of professionals getting paid could come to this conclusion...you would think. 
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{| class="blockquote"
If there were not a clear roadmap to success by observing the past games (ffs a lot of them used to work for blizzard) I would be much less salty. Their system in my opinion is not innovative as its just another ugly mask of korean type rng that should've been put to bed after disasters like Aion and the like. Those who do not learn deserve destruction. Another reason I am so salty is because I DO LIKE THE GAME-but as of right now this is the worm in the apple you find after eating half of it already. I want wildstar to succeed but this is kind of like having to watch a friend go down an obvious wrong path. Sometimes they have to be dragged out kicking and screaming, so here I am dragging best I can.
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{| class="blockquote"
The quickest way to failure is releasing another WoW clone... so using that as a "roadmap", especially for itemization, would have been the precisely wrong thing to do.
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{| class="blockquote"
Everything you say is your opinion, not a fact. Keep that in mind when you talk.
 
The quickest way to failure is releasing another WoW clone... so using that as a "roadmap", especially for itemization, would have been the precisely wrong thing to do.
 
The WildStar system works fine. It could use some tweaks, and it seems to be getting some. But the RNG belongs, and I don't see it going away.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 Maybe WoW did it to us?
----
			Just re-read JT's responses and it doesn't look like random colors is going away. I'm fine with that as long as they make each element do something useful for each class and spec. Super glad the number of runes will be static.	
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{| class="blockquote"
Just re-read JT's responses and it doesn't look like random colors is going away. I'm fine with that as long as they make each element do something useful for each class and spec. Super glad the number of runes will be static.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The most outrageous part is their rewarding early adapters by letting them keep their OP items from an exploit of the design, while implementing a change that will gut it for everyone who comes after the change.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I blame WoW for many evils of the genre's current state, but this isn't one of them. As you said, time is too valuable to waste on endless "maybes". RNG is fine to a certain degree, but there are limits, and Wildstar is crossing them currently.
I was one of many who were livid at Diablo 3's RNG crap. I played every class to level cap and literally did not find a single piece of gear usable on inferno difficulty. Bought it all with auction house flipping profits. Then I realized I didn't buy a fricking Diablo game to play an economy simulator and quit forever. Didn't touch the expansion either, despite their promised loot improvements.
 
And I'm one of the relatively patient people, who has been putting up with a lot in Wildstar (mostly) happily.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Everything you say is your opinion, not a fact. Keep that in mind when you talk.
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{| class="blockquote"
I read it but am not satisfied with it at all. It's meeting half way on something that should not have been put on us to begin with. How can they give each element equal value? I am very skeptical of this. I am skeptical of the stat value chnages as well but I suppose I will wait and see. Still as I have said there is really no reason to have the rng there but still I eagerly a response on why it HAS to exist. My popcorn will be ready.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
D3 is actually very good now and about to get even better. Since they let go Jay Wilson the game has done nothing but improve vastly. In case you were curious :P. I am eagerly awaiting the upcoming patch because its gonna be amazing.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Giving each rarity a fixed number of rune slots makes sense, but that doesn't remove random stats or random slot types. Why? Because this design is the core design of the itemization!
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{| class="blockquote"
It's called iteration... they're not "negotiating" with players... its not meeting you halfway. They are most certainly looking at their data and adjusting their designs based on what they are or are not seeing there.
 
The game's itemization design calls for more layers of random than you seem to care for. Asking them to change that is asking them to change the core of the game, and it wouldn't work. Giving each rarity a fixed number of rune slots makes sense, but that doesn't remove random stats or random slot types. Why? Because this design is the core design of the itemization!
 
It makes players make a choice of if they are "good enough" with the piece they have or if they keep wanting to try for more.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
What item are people thinking about, when they mention elder game itemization and random stats?  Aside from the trash boe blue world drops I can't think of any item without fixed stats at level 50.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This is not definite, yet.
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{| class="blockquote"
I believe you, but I've been burned too badly. Not going back for the forseeable future. It's also a matter of principle. Throwing Blizzard more money after the vanilla debacle and indicating all is forgiven? Their arrogance with the vanilla system was mindblowing. Still can't let it go. I know they don't care about me as a single customer, but it feels better this way. -_-
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I'm not really sure I understand why raid loot is being singled out as "getting fixed".
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Fixed rune slots is what is being discussed. I am aware that this would probably devalue some elements and I suppose the revamp on rune sets and elements themselves can answer some of that but what I charged the devs with is answering why they need to have the rng in the first place? For what point and purpose?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
If the base item is good enough, regardless of the rune slots rolled, then the randomness should either not matter or be a reason to return to cleared content, to get a better rune slot combination.  Currently, the base item isn't good enough without perfect rune slots, so the randomness instead is punishing.  The proposed changes, to rune counts, rune types and sets, and better itemization, should go a long way to having good enough base items.
----
			I don't either, but giving the rune system itself a hard look/rework could make it palatable.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I don't either, but giving the rune system itself a hard look/rework could make it palatable.
----
			Well the biggest issue is that end game is bad so something most have gone wrong that they have to fix.	
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