Report 1227

Report #1227
Skillset: Wicca Skill: Toadcurse
 Org: Shadowdancers Status: Completed Jul 2013
Furies' Decision:
Solution 1.
Problem: Toadcurse is the ultimate power in the wiccan skillset. It can be used
to take someone out of the fight if they fall below 50% mana until they are
either kissed or revert, or alternatively they can be killed with a stomp. Area
effect holders, such as mages and trappers, however, influence the fight most
through their demesne effects and trap effects, both of which are only active
while the associated trap/demesne holder is in the area. Toad currently does not
negate these effects, so that toading a mage or trapper without stomping them
(which can be tricky, especially in their active demesne) is often not helpful
at all. The following solutions are designed with the fact that being toaded is
not an instant kill, but is a method which can negate, at least temporarily,
someone's impact on a fight.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #1: When someone is toaded, temporarily clear/disable
 their enemy list, so that demesne effects, traps,
 room effects, ect won't hit, the enemy list will be
 re-instated upon the toad being untoaded by any
 method (stomp, kiss, passage of time). Toads don't
 have the power/strength to maintain spells/physical
 effects.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #2: As per Viynain's suggestion, make toadcurse strip any
 offensive effects that would have been deactivated
 when a target dies.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #3: In addition to solution 1 or 2, have guardian and
 wiccan entourages automatically ordered to be passive
 when the guardian/wiccan is toaded.
Player Comments:
---[Rivius on 7/4 @ 23:58 writes]:
Solution 1 is okay, though I really do think with the addition of the stun to
toad, you really should accept more responsibility if you lose them, even with
these passives.
---[Viynain on 7/5 @ 01:02 writes]:
A more consistent approach to this, much like defense stripping, is to strip any
offensive effects that would have been deactivated when a target dies. Demesne
effects, traps, illusions, etc. that would have kept working would die
off/deactivate should a toadcurse successfully land.
---[Synkarin on 7/5 @ 05:55 writes]:
There are more than enough ways to prevent a toad from running. Icewalls will
keep a toad contained in a general area, you get a decent stun when you toad
people, in groups it's easy enough to announce to the group that you've toaded
someone and they can all stomp. Demesne/wiccan effects strike me more as a set
and forget situation rather than a constantly maintained focus (you order the
trees/elements etc to hit with these effects, then they do so at their own
volition). I don't feel this is needed.
---[Shuyin on 7/5 @ 05:57 writes]:
I mean this is the best way possible but people still escape as toads even with
the stun?
---[Nihta on 7/5 @ 18:43 writes]:
This report is aimed more at small groups than at single combat. You will notice
that with solution 1, things such as briarwalls and phantom walls will remain in
place. There are several situations where toads will escape in group combat
especially when stun immunity and group hindering is factored in. This will
provide respite from the effects even if a toad hops off, so that even if due to
combat concerns, the toad can't be stomped, the effects are temporarily lifted
and the group gains some advantage from toading the person.
---[Synkarin on 7/5 @ 20:27 writes]:
You still have other options, and it should be even less of an issue in groups
where everyone should be hammering on their stomp alias when they see a toad.
Also, if a toad does get away, the demesne effects will follow them as they run,
still giving your group relief from the meld effects etc. I'm not convinced this
is really needed, if you manage to escape as a toad, you're already completely
stripped of all defenses, no need to add extra punishment on to that.
---[Shuyin on 7/5 @ 21:20 writes]:
Yeah, I'm not sure this is necessary given that toads in groups should be even
easier to kill. If anything, I'd say that enemy groups trying to kiss the toad
and succeed is more annoying on a group level.
---[Nihta on 7/5 @ 23:31 writes]:
I think that while toadcurse is not an instant kill, and will not be an instant
kill, since it has the power cost and conditions of an instant kill, it should
be debilitating, and completely take the toad out of the fight until they are
untoaded.
---[Nihta on 7/5 @ 23:33 writes]:
As things are, it will indeed take some people out of the fight, but as I stated
in the problem, people with passive effects will just have a slightly reduced
impact. As for defense stripping, it is painful, but often times people will re
enter a fight after death sans defenses, as having that extra person, even
defenseless, still provides a significant advantage.
---[Nihta on 7/5 @ 23:36 writes]:
(sorry I keep hitting enter prematurely) In the end, I feel that toadcurses
purpose as a powerful affliction which removes someone from a fight is not being
served in its current incarnation, which is why I am seeking to change that. In
addition, since the effects of the toadcurse are temporary, and designed to be
so, that is why solution 1 is also temporary, and designed to be so.
---[Synkarin on 7/6 @ 03:25 writes]:
I disagree, I feel it is being served, the toaded person is taken out of a fight
(no one is going to sit in the room they gor toaded in, they're going to keep
running around until they are untoaded), which accomplishes exactly what you are
proposing, demesne effects will follow them. Kissing toads to rescue someone is
a death sentence if you get toaded in exchange (which seems to happen more often
than not) due to the fact it stuns you as well and people are already spamming
alias for stomping. Toad doesn't need anymore buffs than it already has.
---[Nihta on 7/6 @ 05:58 writes]:
Currently if a toad escapes a fight, there are two choices: 1) have someone go
and chase them, this removes one of your own fighters from the situation, which
communicates the same disadvantage as toading someone in the first place.
Chasing the toad is doubly risky because demesne effects which slow movement
passively follow the toad around, giving it long enough to hop away each step
before you can get there. Not chasing the toad allows it to sit in the next room
over, still communicating its benefit to its team. In both situations, the time
cost and power cost do not warrent the benefits it brings. In addition, kissing
a toad is a 50% chance of becoming a toad yourself. In the case of lower value
targets kissing higher value targets, I think it is *always* a good move to do,
if people do not wish to risk sacrificing themselves for it, it should be a
tactical error on the side of the toad, and not on the side of the toadcurser.
---[Nihta on 7/6 @ 06:03 writes]:
In essence, I feel that being toaded should be a strong offensive blow, one that
the opponent must deal with. Right now, all the onus is on the toadcurser's side
to deal with the toad - I would like it to be shared with both sides. Sending
someone after the toad will still take someone out of the fight, ignoring the
toad will still cause effects to be reraised, and kissing the toad will also
reraise the effects. This will take some of the strain of of the toadcursers
side for dealing with a toad, and put it in the opponents side - while still
allowing the enemy side ample opportunity to save the toad for great reward.
---[Synkarin on 7/6 @ 22:02 writes]:
There is a lot of assumptions being made here, no one is going to run one room
and sit there as a toad, that's asking to get stomped because people undoubtedly
always chase, even you chase toads, Nihta. Being toaded -is- a strong offensive
blow as is, it doesn't need to be made more so.
---[Wobou on 7/7 @ 02:40 writes]:
I don't see what the fuss is about here. Toadcurse is strictly worse than
absolve (yes I know that wiccans are better at draining the celestines but
still), if all of these changes were implemented.... toadcurse would still be
strictly worse than absolve. I support all the solutions.
---[Rivius on 7/7 @ 14:01 writes]:
The new solutions are fine too, solution 2 or 3 is okay with me I guess. I
wouldn't compare toadcurse to absolve as it's not a good idea to consider an
ability outside of the context of its skillset. Wiccans' potent mana drain is a
large part of the reason why toadcurse should never be an instakill and the
change to give it a stun already did a lot to move it toward that. I think the
'fuss' is just a discussion for future consideration and envoys expressing their
overall thoughts.
---[Llandros on 7/16 @ 13:44 writes]:
If it doesn't take much coding time then sure, if it does then it is probably
not worth it.
---[Xenthos on 7/27 @ 14:39 writes]:
Solutions 1, 2, and 3 are fine (even all together). They do not change the
design of the skill by trying to turn it into an instakill, but they instead
enhance it- a toad should have some difficulty persuading angels and demons to
do its bidding, or command the forces of nature's fury.