123910-b2p-sub-credd-suggestion-page-2

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I agree the population of this game is is't biggest problem right now. Yes you can make it work through LFG channels, guilds, etc but It could be allot better. And yes F2P/B2P/whatever is the easy way to increase population. However the easy way isn't always the best way. There are other games that survive with a sub, and not just WoW. No they will probably never have 1 million + subs, they need to adjust the game for a smaller population while it slowly grows though. Cross faction queues and guilds for one. No one should feel punished for picking the "wrong" faction. Good rewards for mentoring down to random low level dungeons so levelers (especially new players) can actually do them, and learn from 50s at the same time. Consolidate pvp queues. Do we really need rated and unrated now that rating isn't required for gear? maybe add warplots to the BG queues? I don't pvp much but is seems like pvpers are just spread too thin. I am sure there lots of other ways they can bring a small population together. I hope Carbine can do better than just convert to F2P/B2P to save the games population. 
 
 	
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I agree the population of this game is is't biggest problem right now. Yes you can make it work through LFG channels, guilds, etc but It could be allot better. And yes F2P/B2P/whatever is the easy way to increase population. However the easy way isn't always the best way. There are other games that survive with a sub, and not just WoW. No they will probably never have 1 million + subs, they need to adjust the game for a smaller population while it slowly grows though. Cross faction queues and guilds for one. No one should feel punished for picking the "wrong" faction. Good rewards for mentoring down to random low level dungeons so levelers (especially new players) can actually do them, and learn from 50s at the same time. Consolidate pvp queues. Do we really need rated and unrated now that rating isn't required for gear? maybe add warplots to the BG queues? I don't pvp much but is seems like pvpers are just spread too thin. I am sure there lots of other ways they can bring a small population together. I hope Carbine can do better than just convert to F2P/B2P to save the games population. 
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I mentioned something like this already a few times (Carbine designs an item a month, item goes to all current subscribers and CREDD users instantly, goes on a cash shop for people who subscribe later and any free options you include).  It's completely ethical and non-predatory at that point; 15 dollars still purchases the entirety of that month's developed content, the item becomes a reward to all the subscribers (who did essentially pay for the item anyway, if your alternative is people who pay nothing and may buy the item).
 
I think I also mentioned something about buffs when P2W methods were brought up.  The argument I made then I still back up; if there's a free option and you want to slap a 50% XP reduction on free players and make them pay a few dollars to buy an XP buff, but all the subscribers remain the way they are and are still considered mainstays anyway, I don't think I'd have much of a problem with it (sort of, that still seems a bit of a P2W situation, just not expecting those paying a flat up front fee to P2W, which is a bit better but still seems questionable).
 
I still think the best free option would be to slap ad banners on the game for free players, make them sit through short ad videos on loading screens, and populate the menus with them.  Whether you can make those equal, or exceed, a subscriber's monetary contribution depending on the time they play, it should cover the cost of their share of maintenance and customer support, and you can gouge them at the cash shop instead.  The best part would be that those people would be, as opposed to a F2P system where their financial responsibility is redistributed to other players, directly paying their way into the game.  And all people would have to do to avoid it is pay a sub or eat a CREDD.
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B2P + optional sub (like ESO or TSW) would work if you make the benefits of subscribing worth the monthly fee (XP and currency boosts, loyalty benefits, free access to all Drop contents) in order to keep people subscribing.
 
The B2P experience would have to be good enough to draw people back, or attract new players to the game. Make the B2P experience the game as it is (up to Drop 5), and 6 character slots (as it was at launch), and charge for character slots and future Drop contents (quest areas, dungeons etc, not rules changes).
 
Add a cash shop that has Drops, character slots (up to 24), XP and currency boosts and cosmetic items, pets and mounts (which can be gained in-game by subscribers only). Have CREDD translate to X amount of Cash Shop currency, and have an item in the Cash Shop that grants 30-days of subscription, costing X.
 
Basically, subscribers would never have to spend more money to get things in the cash shop (well, aside from additional character slots - and even that could be bought with CREDD on the CX), and Carbine would continue to put effort into designing content because the Drops would make money by keeping people subscribing and through sales to non-subscribers. I don't know how profitable that would actually be (compared to just having a sub), but I can't really see anything negative from the perspective of players.
 
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I agree that population is no1 problem in WS. I also agree that a change model to B2P+Sub+CREDD may be a fast solution but not the best one. But after a year i cant see many things that can be done in order to attract more ppl. Do i have other suggestions? Ofc, but most of them are almost impossible or too hard for Carbine to implement, at least in a short time frame. Lets check
 
1. Better LFG tool in which you ll be able to queue in more than one activity (too much work and time needed the answer by Devs)
2. Cross Faction Dungeons
3. Mentoring Down for Zones and Dungeons with lvl appropriate rewards
4. Mentoring Up for PvP
5. Alt friendly gameplay
6. Almost Every Reward must be Account Wide (also this must be applied to new items coming with Drop 5 like pets, toys etc)
7. Daily Login rewards
8. Better Trial. Maybe like EvE's 30 Days of play or infinite play up to 20 lvl like WoW. They also may allow trials to <only> buy or accept from others CREDD in order to own the game. Its like EvE where if you put a PLEX in a trial client, you own the game.
9. Advertisement. No <hardcore> crap etc or retarded videos like protogames. Just a constant advertisement of how superb the game is anymore and how is friendly to anyone's tastes.
10. Allow ppl who are out of sub to login at least with low lvl chars. They can check the state of the game after a new Drop.
 
I can suggest more things which i think are essential to attract ppl ingame. But as long as i don't see any move by Carbine, i ll support B2P+Sub+CREDD solution, despite i ll keep having my sub active even if this happens.
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1. Better LFG tool in which you ll be able to queue in more than one activity (too much work and time needed the answer by Devs)
2. Cross Faction Dungeons
3. Mentoring Down for Zones and Dungeons with lvl appropriate rewards
4. Mentoring Up for PvP
5. Alt friendly gameplay
6. Almost Every Reward must be Account Wide (also this must be applied to new items coming with Drop 5 like pets, toys etc)
7. Daily Login rewards
8. Better Trial. Maybe like EvE's 30 Days of play or infinite play up to 20 lvl like WoW. They also may allow trials to <only> buy or accept from others CREDD in order to own the game. Its like EvE where if you put a PLEX in a trial client, you own the game.
9. Advertisement. No <hardcore> crap etc or retarded videos like protogames. Just a constant advertisement of how superb the game is anymore and how is friendly to anyone's tastes.
10. Allow ppl who are out of sub to login at least with low lvl chars. They can check the state of the game after a new Drop.
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Also a good idea, although you'd still have an access barrier.
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I agree that population is no1 problem in WS. I also agree that a change model to B2P+Sub+CREDD may be a fast solution but not the best one. But after a year i cant see many things that can be done in order to attract more ppl. Do i have other suggestions? Ofc, but most of them are almost impossible or too hard for Carbine to implement, at least in a short time frame. Lets check
 
1. Better LFG tool in which you ll be able to queue in more than one activity (too much work and time needed the answer by Devs)
2. Cross Faction Dungeons
3. Mentoring Down for Zones and Dungeons with lvl appropriate rewards
4. Mentoring Up for PvP
5. Alt friendly gameplay
6. Almost Every Reward must be Account Wide (also this must be applied to new items coming with Drop 5 like pets, toys etc)
7. Daily Login rewards
8. Better Trial. Maybe like EvE's 30 Days of play or infinite play up to 20 lvl like WoW. They also may allow trials to <only> buy or accept from others CREDD in order to own the game. Its like EvE where if you put a PLEX in a trial client, you own the game.
9. Advertisement. No <hardcore> crap etc or retarded videos like protogames. Just a constant advertisement of how superb the game is anymore and how is friendly to anyone's tastes.
10. Allow ppl who are out of sub to login at least with low lvl chars. They can check the state of the game after a new Drop.
 
I can suggest more things which i think are essential to attract ppl ingame. But as long as i don't see any move by Carbine, i ll support B2P+Sub+CREDD solution, despite i ll keep having my sub active even if this happens.
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1. Better LFG tool in which you ll be able to queue in more than one activity (too much work and time needed the answer by Devs)
2. Cross Faction Dungeons
3. Mentoring Down for Zones and Dungeons with lvl appropriate rewards
4. Mentoring Up for PvP
5. Alt friendly gameplay
6. Almost Every Reward must be Account Wide (also this must be applied to new items coming with Drop 5 like pets, toys etc)
7. Daily Login rewards
8. Better Trial. Maybe like EvE's 30 Days of play or infinite play up to 20 lvl like WoW. They also may allow trials to <only> buy or accept from others CREDD in order to own the game. Its like EvE where if you put a PLEX in a trial client, you own the game.
9. Advertisement. No <hardcore> crap etc or retarded videos like protogames. Just a constant advertisement of how superb the game is anymore and how is friendly to anyone's tastes.
10. Allow ppl who are out of sub to login at least with low lvl chars. They can check the state of the game after a new Drop.
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This is how WS must be every single day, not only Sunday evening. This is what i call healthy population, even if its only one megaserver.
 
http://imgur.com/a/QnH1o	
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This is how WS must be every single day, not only Sunday evening. This is what i call healthy population, even if its only one megaserver.
 
http://imgur.com/a/QnH1o
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It's not just the one.  Entity's got that population as well.
 
 
 
Such is the greater question of how we, as players, give feedback.  One kind of player sees a problem in the game and recommends changes that would make the game even more worthwhile.  B2P and F2P make the game functionally worthless.  I have no idea why people continue to opt for the latter rather than the former.  One thing I do know is that I'm probably not going to stick around if the game goes F2P/B2P.  Not just because of my moral disgust with a system that functions like a giant telemarketing ad, but because I've gotten to see the posts people make trying to get B2P or F2P on our FB and Subreddit.  I don't think I want to play in the same game as the vast majority of those people.
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As much as I agree, I do believe that to be a very closed minded approach. I see the extremes on both ends, and I understand the concept behind both ends. But a thing that many seem to forget to mention is that Carbine is a business, providing a service with the main goal to be profit. If the sub model is not making them money, why would they keep using it? You shouldn't be saying you wont play with that "crowd" (insert meme of "dont touch me you filthy casual"), but if the game was to go F2P, what could make it a better, troll free experience. Examples could be maybe have options where F2P players can not whisper you unless they are on your friends list, or having separate global chats for F2P and subs, but the subs could join the F2P channel (if want to), but F2P couldn't join sub channel. 
 
Do not take this as a "pro F2P" post, I personally prefer the sub model, but I wont rage quit if the game went F2P :-)
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If people quit wildstar due to the sub cost, you'd have a point.
 
Find me 1 "I'm quitting" post where the Subscription was the players number 1 reason for quitting I'll give you a CREDD. Till then maybe we can stop this kind of threads.
 
There are many other ways to bring people in. The best way is to provide a product people feel is worth a subscription. I believe Carbine is making great strides towards that.  Next is a free unlimited time trial to level 20 (with current trial restrictions)
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I had to quit because I dont have the money to pay for it going to school ! ... and getting time to farm 16p is kind of hard 
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F2P no
 
B2P maybe, but with a sub if you want. Creed should also be there.
 
As B2P you can lvl and run lets say 3-5 Adventures/Dungeons etc, raiding ist not possible. Housing possible but only with 300 decor max in and out.
 
Sub as it is now and Creed the same.
 
I really like sub games, because i dont get these childish players, that like to troll or wipe groups etc...
Sub brings a friendly playerbase, B2P and F2P doesnt.
 
I hope they never drop the sub, but if the do make it B2P but with a solutions to sub to get everything.	
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As B2P you can lvl and run lets say 3-5 Adventures/Dungeons etc, raiding ist not possible. Housing possible but only with 300 decor max in and out.
 
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No to that
They should not put key game elements behind a pay wall.
 
As for the player base, not sure what you are talking about maybe i play other no sub games then you have :/
So far the friendliest has been BnS Japan now, i can not write any Japanese but i try to pick up a few words here and there but no communication from me what so ever so i try it with very simple English sometimes and they have always been very friendly the random party members for the dungeons.
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F2P no
 
B2P maybe, but with a sub if you want. Creed should also be there.
 
As B2P you can lvl and run lets say 3-5 Adventures/Dungeons etc, raiding ist not possible. Housing possible but only with 300 decor max in and out.
 
Sub as it is now and Creed the same.
 
I really like sub games, because i dont get these childish players, that like to troll or wipe groups etc...
Sub brings a friendly playerbase, B2P and F2P doesnt.
 
I hope they never drop the sub, but if the do make it B2P but with a solutions to sub to get everything.
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If you cant write or read Japanese, how do you know they are friendly to you. I have played a lot of no sub games, and the trend is quite clear, "I dont have to pay so i can be an *cupcake*, if my account gets banned i dont really care i just create a new one..." There are always different people, i mean you and me are playing them also and we think different.
 
A Sub helps to get keep them away, because if the get banned here they would loose money.
 
To your first coment, i dont see a problem with that, since in my solution creed would still be there, for me a item shop with cosmetic stuff is horrible, because i love that stuff and if i cant play to get them, i would have to pay for them and i dont do that and so i quite. I never buyed anything in an item shop and i never will.
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I'd personally just use a Hybrid...
It's the most effective way to nullify the access barrier completely and re-populate low level brackets.
 
Introduce restrictions for the free players. Stuff like:
 
2-4 times slower currency gains
reduced EG gain (lower cap)
gold cap
additional / increased lockout timers on adventures / dungeons / raids
chat-function not usable before lvl 10-15
higher %-fee for CX/AH listings
contruction-times for housing
only ~10 pvp matches per day
only 1 tradeskill with increased timer for swapping *
only 2 character slots *
* = only for new accounts. Accounts from former subscribers (veteran accounts, if you will) wouldn't have those restrictions.
 
Then turn CREDD into the in-game sub, which removes the restrictions.
 
 
And I have to agree with Anvh... F2P doen't mean, that suddenly the commuity gets toxic....that just not true...
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benefits would be great and the extra character slots for example but what will happen to those characters if you don't pay?
also i don't think you want to limit any content players can do because it would limit the amount of time someone will play the game and that will hurt the community/game as well, we already have people complaining about queues so lets not go there...
Besides that you don't pay to win
 
BnS has a VIP subscription together with a cash shop.
VIP users get some extra's like mobs drop money, you earn more money with quests and you pay less of an AH fee and you can have more AH auctions.
And one of the best bonuses... you can access your bank from anywhere ><
in the cash shop you can find vanity items and boost pots like xp boost, money boost things like that.
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Because they don't kick me and i can pick up some Japanese like i said but no way i can type it, their keyboard is weird ><
I sometimes try in romanji which i sometimes get funny looks or i type in English and some of them often try as well, or i get an email 10 minutes later with a thank you ^^
 
As for accounts, they can IP ban you right?
Also you lose all progressing you had, beside that I've seen players with a bad attitude here in wildstar... compared to GW2 I won't say that WS is more friendly or worse.
Just read here how the dungeons are pugged and how many complain about that ;)
 
As for the item shop, almost always there are option for players who buy item store currency to exchange them to in game currency, GW2 has that and Star Trek Online as well and that works.
So if you want a costume and you dont want to pay for it then you must exchange your gold with someone selling their store money.
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Sure that can work, only that i would have to pay atleast 10 Platin for 1 cosemtic items, so itemshop is no solutions, it just a ground to drop a game.
If i play a game with subs i can get everything while playing i dont need to exchange anything with real life currency, not even change other peoples real life currency into ingame currency.
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Well you do, you need to exchange real life money for 1 month play time, if you don't you have access to nothing.
 
Also like you say you can get CREDD so even people here can buy CREDD  get banned and then make a new account ;)
So they need to buy the game again but same is true for GW2 for example so in that sense B2P = P2P
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There is a difference between buying game time and buying cosmetic items.
 
Game Time, if payed with normal money or creed doesnt differ, it gives you 30 days off playtime. no restriction.
Guild Wars 2 doesnt need play time, therefor they have a cashshop where people can spend 100 of € and get a lead, and there lies the difference, you said it yourself XP BOOST, Money BOOST etc... that gives you a advantige over players that just bought that game.
 
In Wildstar there would be Prestige, Glory, Elder GEM BOOST, and im 100 % sure APPoints and AMP Points, and so that would give a huge boost for players that would buy stuff in the shop.
 
Game Time = Game Time ( no difference)
Item Shops = you can buy yourself a advantige (nogo) and even the game where itemshops are only cosmetic, the players how pay get more.
 
Sub =everyone is equal ( for me best system)
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I'll quit if the game goes F2P.  In a heartbeat.  I wouldn't even have to consider it.
 
I don't mind if the game has a free option.  I've personally given suggestions about better ways to implement all of these features.  That doesn't bother me.  But I know enough about F2P/B2P as a system that I'll never, ever play another one.  I'm not supporting any company with my time or my money who has dropped the pretense about making the game more fun for me to play and has gone to trying to bring in a bunch of people I already have the experience of not personally liking and trying to convince me to pay for them through microtransactions.  Wildstar right now is about the last bastion where they're not trying to fleece their accounted-for population for more money, even among sub games.
 
I wouldn't consider myself closed-minded; I've given plenty of other options.  I'm just not an idiot, and I'm not particularly keen on transitioning from target audience to plain-old target.
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But that is the meaning of being closed minded. Your opinion is made, and unwilling to try something different. As much as I do agree with what you say, I can not respect it just because of how closed minded it is, and the fact that you say you are not an idiot because you do not like F2P. I play F2P games like Neverwinter, Rift and etc when I get bored. Does that make me an idiot then?
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There is a difference between buying game time and buying cosmetic items.
 
Game Time, if payed with normal money or creed doesnt differ, it gives you 30 days off playtime. no restriction.
Guild Wars 2 doesnt need play time, therefor they have a cashshop where people can spend 100 of € and get a lead, and there lies the difference, you said it yourself XP BOOST, Money BOOST etc... that gives you a advantige over players that just bought that game.
 
In Wildstar there would be Prestige, Glory, Elder GEM BOOST, and im 100 % sure APPoints and AMP Points, and so that would give a huge boost for players that would buy stuff in the shop.
 
Game Time = Game Time ( no difference)
Item Shops = you can buy yourself a advantige (nogo) and even the game where itemshops are only cosmetic, the players how pay get more.
 
Sub =everyone is equal ( for me best system)
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No that makes you someone who plays F2P Games.
Your decision, just like it's ours NOT to play it.
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Game Time, if payed with normal money or creed doesnt differ, it gives you 30 days off playtime. no restriction.
Guild Wars 2 doesnt need play time, therefor they have a cashshop where people can spend 100 of € and get a lead, and there lies the difference, you said it yourself XP BOOST, Money BOOST etc... that gives you a advantige over players that just bought that game.
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Yes, I do play F2P games, doesn't mean I am an idiot.
 
I have never said Wildstar should go F2P, and would prefer if it didnt but just because a game is F2P doesnt mean its bad instantly. As I said, a game company is out to make profit, not provide a free service to us (the self entitlement attitude on these forums can be very overwhelming at times). Would you rather have no Wildstar or F2P Wildstar? I know what my answer would be.
 
As it stands, I think people are caring a bit too much about the F2P/sub argument. It makes me sad really if this is all the community cares about. Yes I prefer sub only because its cheap (£9, seriously who can not afford that?!) Can we not have a mega thread for this where a mod would put all posts related into?
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But that is the meaning of being closed minded. Your opinion is made, and unwilling to try something different. As much as I do agree with what you say, I can not respect it just because of how closed minded it is, and the fact that you say you are not an idiot because you do not like F2P. I play F2P games like Neverwinter, Rift and etc when I get bored. Does that make me an idiot then?
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Where did I call you an idiot?
If you want to play F2P games, that's your decision; has nothing to do with me or anyone on these boards.
But just like you decide to play F2P games, I decide not  to play. The amount of F2P games I play or have played, I can probably count on one hand.
It's a matter of taste or principle in some cases.
 
A Company is definitely out to make a profit, they have no other choice if they wish to stay in business.
But there's also the passion that comes with making games, and the amount of work and effort that is being put into making these games.
And some people on these forums need to learn a healthy dose of respect for that amount of work, or put their money where their mouth is and try making a game themselves like this.
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But that is the meaning of being closed minded. Your opinion is made, and unwilling to try something different. As much as I do agree with what you say, I can not respect it just because of how closed minded it is, and the fact that you say you are not an idiot because you do not like F2P. I play F2P games like Neverwinter, Rift and etc when I get bored. Does that make me an idiot then?
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I think that if anything were to change to allow any sort of "free" I'd just make the 10 day free trial into a "free to level 15" with restricted character slots to 2, and a much lower housing decor ceiling/limit. I think 15 is high enough now to get a good idea of the game with exception to raids allowing players to experience shiphands, the protostar academy dungeon, pvp(id imagine that once same faction is in place this may be easier to get going), ect...
 
I don't personally like F2P nor B2P really as the developmental focus tends to be drawn more toward it's cash shop. My experiences tend to lead toward the negative so I'm very wary of it. I don't care even for GW2's cash shop either personally...	
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			I do agree that something needs to be done to attract more people, but I don't necessarily know if it should be B2P. Especially since this is carbine we are talking about here, not EA, Blizzard, or some other widely known company. Maybe WS just needs some more advertising. But this is a rough time for any MMO without an expansion coming out very soon because like every other damn MMO has an expansion that just came out. FFXIV has Heavensward coming out, WOW just had Warlords of Draenor come out a few months ago, SWTOR just had the Revan expansion come out a few months ago, Tera just had an expansion a little while back, TESO just went F2P, and I'm sure there are other popular ones I am forgetting. The very fact that there has been a rise in population in WS this past month is saying something considering all these expansions going around- but we do still need more people. Now instead of complaining about what the original post here said about B2P and whatnot, I suggest we try to come to a rational conclusion that most of us can agree would be best for everyone.	
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I do agree that something needs to be done to attract more people, but I don't necessarily know if it should be B2P. Especially since this is carbine we are talking about here, not EA, Blizzard, or some other widely known company. Maybe WS just needs some more advertising. But this is a rough time for any MMO without an expansion coming out very soon because like every other damn MMO has an expansion that just came out. FFXIV has Heavensward coming out, WOW just had Warlords of Draenor come out a few months ago, SWTOR just had the Revan expansion come out a few months ago, Tera just had an expansion a little while back, TESO just went F2P, and I'm sure there are other popular ones I am forgetting. The very fact that there has been a rise in population in WS this past month is saying something considering all these expansions going around- but we do still need more people. Now instead of complaining about what the original post here said about B2P and whatnot, I suggest we try to come to a rational conclusion that most of us can agree would be best for everyone.
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Well hey, to speak to the value, we've gotten more than most people get in an expansion from our drops, and those came for the price of our subs.  Wildstar's development model, as it's existed so far, has been an incredibly good deal for us.
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Has it, though? In 10 months what have we really gotten out of the content patches?
 
1 new dungeon.
1 new battleground.
1 new repeatable story instance.
2 new zones.
 
The rest of the content is either radical design shifts or a reshuffling of existing content. That means existing zones reconfigured into daily quest zones, veteran shiphands, and the reshuffling of raid team sizes and other systems overhauls. Would you have looked at that list and said to yourself that it's worth $150?
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When was the last time...
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Look, Carbine's doing good things with WildStar, but there's no need to overstate it. xD The content in drops is about the same as content in regular patches in most other sub MMOs I've played. Is it more than F2P games? Yea. But FFXIV gets pretty regular updates, too, and I remember Rift's patches back when it was sub-based. TERA and Aion were always slow because ugh Korean-->English delay.
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As broad what spectrum? The revamping of game systems (such as PvP, retuning raids, glory, implementation of daily shiphand/adventure/dungeon/pvp quests) aren't exactly content additions so much as fine-tuning the game to be what it should have been. Veteran shiphands are awesome, but it's clear they were always meant to be there, and their addition isn't really any different than other content updates in other games. We've gotten a single new dungeon on top of that, and three daily zones. FFXIV had a lot of its system design already worked out, but it's also gotten new daily zones (four? or was it five...) that are no more mind-numbing that WildStar's, multiple additions of raid group content in the various Coils and the more casual Crystal Tower stuff, the open world hunt content, 2+ new 4-man dungeons with every big patch, updates to that solo weapon advancement quest, and some fluff features. (Won't mention housing because FFXIV's housing is the absolute worst. >_< They do not shine in term of fluff content in that regard.)
 
I'm super happy with what Carbine's doing, but I'm under no illusions that they're doing something revolutionary in terms of amount of content.	
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As broad what spectrum? The revamping of game systems (such as PvP, retuning raids, glory, implementation of daily shiphand/adventure/dungeon/pvp quests) aren't exactly content additions so much as fine-tuning the game to be what it should have been. Veteran shiphands are awesome, but it's clear they were always meant to be there, and their addition isn't really any different than other content updates in other games. We've gotten a single new dungeon on top of that, and three daily zones. FFXIV had a lot of its system design already worked out, but it's also gotten new daily zones (four? or was it five...) that are no more mind-numbing that WildStar's, multiple additions of raid group content in the various Coils and the more casual Crystal Tower stuff, the open world hunt content, 2+ new 4-man dungeons with every big patch, updates to that solo weapon advancement quest, and some fluff features. (Won't mention housing because FFXIV's housing is the absolute worst. >_< They do not shine in term of fluff content in that regard.)
 
I'm super happy with what Carbine's doing, but I'm under no illusions that they're doing something revolutionary in terms of amount of content.
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Giving content credit for fixing broken systems seems a little messed up. Is it good that Carbine's adjusting things? Of course! But fixing stuff that doesn't work is kind of what one would expect from developers. You don't see SE fixing broken systems because for the most part, they don't really have broken systems (except for housing *grumble*). Aside from that it's still impossible to PvP sub-50 and most of the PvP content outside of PBGs at 50 are so very rarely available. No SE doesn't have adventures/dungeons in FFXIV, but they do have primal fights, story dungeons, and end-game 4-mans (and I suppose you could also include all of the low level dungeons, as those are still relevant to do at cap since they give rewards to capped players), as well as the very casual-friendly 24-man content. Throw in the open-world stuff and that's just as much if not more variety than WS in terms of PvE.
 
But WS wins in terms of combat and challenge, so there's that. xD	
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Giving content credit for fixing broken systems seems a little messed up. Is it good that Carbine's adjusting things? Of course! But fixing stuff that doesn't work is kind of what one would expect from developers. You don't see SE fixing broken systems because for the most part, they don't really have broken systems (except for housing *grumble*). Aside from that it's still impossible to PvP sub-50 and most of the PvP content outside of PBGs at 50 are so very rarely available. No SE doesn't have adventures/dungeons in FFXIV, but they do have primal fights, story dungeons, and end-game 4-mans (and I suppose you could also include all of the low level dungeons, as those are still relevant to do at cap since they give rewards to capped players), as well as the very casual-friendly 24-man content. Throw in the open-world stuff and that's just as much if not more variety than WS in terms of PvE.
 
But WS wins in terms of combat and challenge, so there's that. xD
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I think if Carbine hadn't had to spend so much time fixing things, it would be better value. And a lot of those things they needed to fix were things, reportedly, that players brought to Carbine's attention during beta.
 
Right now I don't think they've given substantially more than other major MMOs I've played, excluding WoW (I'm always distressed by how long they take to add content; at the same time, I believe Blizzard produces the most polished and gameplay-savvy content of any MMO developer, and that matters). I believe we should take a look at Drop 3 as an example of patching that should mostly be discounted from praise. Even the housing stuff, which produced that drop's biggest impact imo, was not that intensive. The decor cap raise to 1K means a lot in the mind of a player who likes housing, but does not, to me, represent any serious form of resource commitment. It was kind of a no-brainer and something they said could have been done at launch, both in terms of desire and resources.
 
All that aside, imo, if Carbine produces four major drops per year that feature as much content as 4, and that content is polished/critical bugs fixed quickly (swap vectors in housing is critical and still live), then I'll put my hat in Carbine's corner. At this point the game is still too buggy for me to consider their drop contributions solely on the merit of what, theoretically, the new stuff should be doing. (another example, the lame-duck /who command.)	
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I think if Carbine hadn't had to spend so much time fixing things, it would be better value. And a lot of those things they needed to fix were things, reportedly, that players brought to Carbine's attention during beta.
 
Right now I don't think they've given substantially more than other major MMOs I've played, excluding WoW (I'm always distressed by how long they take to add content; at the same time, I believe Blizzard produces the most polished and gameplay-savvy content of any MMO developer, and that matters). I believe we should take a look at Drop 3 as an example of patching that should mostly be discounted from praise. Even the housing stuff, which produced that drop's biggest impact imo, was not that intensive. The decor cap raise to 1K means a lot in the mind of a player who likes housing, but does not, to me, represent any serious form of resource commitment. It was kind of a no-brainer and something they said could have been done at launch, both in terms of desire and resources.
 
All that aside, imo, if Carbine produces four major drops per year that feature as much content as 4, and that content is polished/critical bugs fixed quickly (swap vectors in housing is critical and still live), then I'll put my hat in Carbine's corner.
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			I should clarify that I see a distinction in strict content additions and fixes/adjustments to existing systems. I do not agree that Carbine comes out ahead of any other MMO in terms of content addition. What they have shown to great degree is a willingness to adapt their game in response to feedback. That's different from what I was discussing, however.	
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I'm kind of surprised at Drop 3.  Unfortunately, that's the patch that did a lot we couldn't actually see.  Like I said, it depends a lot on how you value what we've gotten.  Drop 3 was specifically built to address a single player complaint, that the game was buggy and getting worse during the monthly drops.  Given what we got out of it, I thought that was great.  Then again, I expect launch titles to be buggy for years; it was nice to have a company put it up at the forefront of development even though it's not necessarily a "sexy" idea for the playerbase.  Hell, my dragoon jumps in FFXIV:ARR were still bugging when I was playing, and that was long after its release (just a few months before WS dropped).  They may still be bugging now for all I know; I had it happen during one of the last dungeon runs I ran in that game before getting into Wildstar.
 
So I may place a little higher value on Drop 3 than many of players do.  A lot of it doesn't get seen, which is sort of the point, in the long term.  The less you see and thank the bug fix drop, the better.  Still, that was also the period we got megaservers as well.  That turned out to be a great move for us.  Would have been nice if I hadn't had to hope I could fight for a spot to get an alt on my server in before RMTs claimed them all....
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I definitely don't give them credit for having to dedicate an entire 3 month patch to bug fixing. That is not normal in my experience of MMOs. They all have bugs, for sure, but Wildstar's bugs were more widespread, critical, and persistent than any other MMO I've played, period. Including F2P ones. Neverwinter was more polished than WS at launch. :(
 
Oh and I give no credit for megaservers, either. Though it did benefit us, not the slightest part of me thinks it was done for our benefit primarily. The game was rapidly dying at that time, servers were barren, and new players were being spread out based on little more than name preference. In the end it was a disaster that was avoided through megaservers. And while I appreciate avoiding disasters, I don't feel my sub should be going toward that. :P
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I understand that.  I just don't share the view.  Especially since I was around for far worse launches than Wildstar's.  But as I said, if you don't particularly share my values on what their value is to our dollars, you might not agree with me.  I simply have the values I have, I have a very distinct view on bugs and where I've seen them in the past, and I think Drop 3 was absolutely good value for money.
 
However, you're free to disagree.  As I said, I can certainly see why you'd have that opinion.
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It's short sighted on the part of the entire MMORPG community to have accepted this as the status quo, to vilify a game company requiring less than dinner for two at Wendy's a month and laud a payment model specifically meant to target players.  We should be better than this, smarter than this.  We should have held players accountable a long time ago and told them that nobody plays for "free".  The onus of recuperating the lost revenue on someone not paying money themselves or not playing to purchase game time with the currency themselves should have always laid on those players.
 
There's nothing closed-minded about knowing there are far better options and finding the excuse that the poor free players don't want to be personally inconvenienced for the simple crime of not wanting to contribute at all to the game to be lacking.  That model doesn't deserve my money, my time, or my patience.  It's player predation, pure and simple, and I'm not fool enough or ethically comfortable to even provide my time to it.  I'm not even comfortable with the subscription games with game cash shops, gouging their players for more money.  We have other options, I'm certainly not supporting any game's parent developers that ignore them.
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I wish more people thought the way you do on this, it would be healthier for the game! But sadly, the mass exodus we saw in summer/fall and the bleeding that continues* suggest most players are not so forgiving of bugs, and don't see WS as a typical example of MMO polish. Bugs and broken systems were the most cited reasons for lost players, from what I read. I didn't see that happening in SWTOR, RIFT, ARR, TERA, NW, or WoW (which was quite buggy, but still grew rapidly). I saw complaints about these things, but not to the degree of unity and disappointment that I saw in WS back then.
 
 
*Just want to clarify the term bleeding as I use it here: I don't think the game is in a hole overall. I still feel like the game has grown since D4. But, while new players come in, I'm still watching old players disappear, some weeks being worse than others. So by bleeding I don't mean we're seeing a net loss, or that the game is dying. I just believe, in the context in which I used the word, that we're still losing subs because of bugs and broken systems— though the popular reason lately seems to be population.
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Tons of us have given F2P games a try. Many MMOs I've played have gone F2P. I have ultimately ended up despising it every single time. That is not being close-minded. That is me witnessing reality and making an informed decision regarding my opinion.
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Not what I meant but just to reply, that doesn't mean carbine would do it bad. By saying you will NOT play because its F2P is actually closed minded. I dont really like F2P games (as my main MMO) because they do lack constant new content, but thats not the point. The point being, that not even giving it a try is closed minded. The meaning of being closed minded actually describes perfectly what you have described.
 
 
Wasnt meant for you Oliviar :-P was building upon my previous post <3
 
 
Vic, you can type walls of text all you want, I have said before, I agree with what you saying. What I do not agree with is your  view of "you are not stupid" because you dont play F2P games. It gives the impression that anyone that does, is stupid, anyone that doesnt agree with you is, and on top of that, I dont agree with the "wildstar goes F2P = I quit" post just because I believe in giving something a chance before bashing it. I hate MOBA's (Dota 2 and LoL) but I still gave Heroes of the Storm a go (still didnt like it) just in case I may like it! I like to believe that in a pile of silage, you may find a diamond, which is the mindset I am trying to keep IF (take note it is in capitals) Wildstar goes F2P.
 
Keep in mind, I am not having a go at you, honestly I think you are a nice human being, just do not agree with your view of F2P :-P
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some people I'm sure hate it but are willing to accept it.
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Out of everything you have wrote, I can not agree more, BUT I want to point the quoted section out more so. THAT is where I stand. Because I <3 the combat, lore and artwork of Wildstar, I will put up with F2P for my "main" MMO (I quote it because I usually play two MMOs at the same time, one for messing about in, and another for some sweet sweet raiding :-P).
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I couldn't.  With everything I've said, plus everything I know that happens to F2P games, I would immediately and unreservedly leave.  I'd log in one last time to hand off my guild control, I wouldn't provide any more feedback.  That would be the end of Wildstar for me.  NCSoft wouldn't deserve my time, my money, or my patience anymore, obviously, what I would have given it up to that point would have become unsatisfactory, since I wouldn't be willing to pay more for the same amount of development (allocated to less substantial sources) in order to allow other people to contribute nothing.
 
Because I, personally, would feel like a fool if I stuck around, supporting a model I know is directly targeted at getting me to pay more money to give us less of what we actually need.  I'm the guy F2P games are trying to target.  I'm their estimated source of income.  And sticking around would be my tacit approval of that system, based on me ignoring all evidence I've ever heard or personally experienced to the contrary that it won't be so bad.
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I know I can't convince you of anything with this, but just to put it out there...
 
I almost didn't play WS because it has a cash shop and lets people buy gameplay-affecting items with real money. That is so against my disposition that, were it not for housing, I would have left Wildstar a week after purchase (when what was possible finally sunk in). In the end i found housing and it's been an amazing experience that I do not regret.
 
Another reason to think twice, plenty of RP players were being just as adamant as you're being here when Carbine announced the death of Evindra. They were also basing their outcries on past experiences and personal beliefs. And while both of those are reasonable platforms for action, in the end there was very little trolling. The RP community on Dominion side seems content, and I've heard almost no complaints.
 
So keep an open mind if you can. ;)
 
Personal opinion, if this game went F2P, I would likely also leave. My experience with the community is the worst part, I find F2P games have a lot of outspoken players who have terrible grammar, are vulgar, and like to *cupcake* people off. So that's my reason.
 
However, I believe some game some day is going to strike a perfect balance that will become precedent for the next generation of games and gamers. Who knows... maybe Wildstar could be that game, and break ground on a functional, fair F2P or B2P system.
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But F2P and B2P are no longer "anything that isn't a sub", they're a sort of industry fallback, and one that's pretty repellent.  It's a way people can literally play for free and have their costs doubled back across the rest of the gaming population.  In the light of other, more fair payment models (many currently in use in other entertainment media), the reasons why we continue to support F2P and B2P elude me.
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Between this:
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Because I, personally, would feel like a fool if I stuck around, supporting a model I know is directly targeted at getting me to pay more money to give us less of what we actually need.  I'm the guy F2P games are trying to target.  I'm their estimated source of income.  And sticking around would be my tacit approval of that system, based on me ignoring all evidence I've ever heard or personally experienced to the contrary that it won't be so bad.
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It's a tricky situation. The opposing sides seem to put it like this:
 
No F2P: 'freeloaders leech, while the rest support them'
 
F2P: 'those who pay less get less, those who pay more get more'
 
Which interpretation is more accurate probably depends on the specific model. My problem, aside from the community aspect, isn't with some people paying more than others. My issue is mainly that some of the whales (who knows, maybe many) are people with control problems, and kids. That's no good. I firmly believe that F2P should have a 'spend ceiling' that prevents these two targets from putting the game on their back.
 
Otherwise, monetizing gameplay/rewards upsets me, but that's already happening in Wildstar. So I feel like I kind of have to let go of this one since I'm already supporting it, and have been since Blizzard implemented their own cash shop (even when it was a website out of the game). :P
 
 
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Well, that would be a decent argument to make on it's behalf, except for one thing.  "Those who pay more get more" assumes you are getting something in excess.  It certainly wouldn't be in excess of what we're getting now.  There are only so many development hours.  These will not increase, instead they'll be redistributed to generate monetized items while the game goes on with less.  So there is no "more" that's actually possible here.  Part of the team will be turned over to generating items they can monetize.  We will all receive less game, and we will all lose development hours of investment if you don't purchase every single thing offered.  Therefore, the only way to take advantage of all the development hours we are currently receiving to the tune of 15 dollars a month (or 20 dollars in the case of those eating a CREDD) is to buy everything released, which will easily rise to a price far higher than 15 dollars a month (if it didn't, the system cannot realistically make more money than it currently is).
 
Or you can take the option to pay less and get even less than that.
 
So for everyone, it's a bad option.  Nobody is getting the gameplay improvements and content they would otherwise be getting.  Those who are taking advantage of the developer hours are paying a lot more and getting a lot more insubstantial content.  Those playing free aren't getting the gameplay improvements OR the fluff.  So you get to pick how little you receive, but the game will absolutely suffer.  The only way it wouldn't in a F2P system is if you hire in more staff to create those items, all in excess of those currently coding for Carbine, and your shop can generate enough money to fund the entire rest of the game's development as it is.  That simply isn't feasible, and it's certainly worse than if you'd had a subscription game and hired those people and instead they built you a new dungeon.
 
Honestly, Wildstar has the least monetization issues because, at least at present, there are only a few items which can only be purchased for a large amount of plat from a vendor (the kind of thing that CREDD would actually be able to directly monetize).  I can deal with what we've got... or at the very least I have more respect for that than having a cash shop in addition to your sub the way EVE and WoW do.
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While I don't want to argue on either side of the F2P/B2P and P2P debate, I have a genuine question on the matter.
 
Has anyone ever witness a MMORPG with a limited population which a transition to Buy to Play actually increase the population?
 
 
The Elder Scrolls Online is quick to be cited, but this game is doing way more then transition into a B2P system, they are releasing on PS4 and XBone. Plus, they already stated they will sell all future content addition as DLCs (only allowing subscribers to "rent" said DLCs). What they might lose in terms of subscribers, they gain in console selling, DLCs and cash shop for all. Let's not forget also that it is part of a very strong Intellectual Property, the Elder Scrolls franchise. Plus, there were still a fair amount of players before it went B2P.
 
Guild Wars 2 is the flagship of the B2P model and has been since the original Guild Wars, which at least partly funded the game. It never transitioned, so its success cannot be compared to WildStar.
 
The only game I know of that matches WildStar's condition is the Secret World. Buy to Play didn't help the game much as I don't think it got any more popular (at least not for long). Even today, I think the population is at most on par with WildStar. Plus, the Secret World now sells content addition as DLCs, which subscribers are not entitled to (they need to buy it, either with money or by saving cash shop tokens their subscription brings).
 
 
So...are there any indications that going Buy to Play will actually help WildStar for more than the two-three weeks of the novelty of the transition?	
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While I don't want to argue on either side of the F2P/B2P and P2P debate, I have a genuine question on the matter.
 
Has anyone ever witness a MMORPG with a limited population which a transition to Buy to Play actually increase the population?
 
 
The Elder Scrolls Online is quick to be cited, but this game is doing way more then transition into a B2P system, they are releasing on PS4 and XBone. Plus, they already stated they will sell all future content addition as DLCs (only allowing subscribers to "rent" said DLCs). What they might lose in terms of subscribers, they gain in console selling, DLCs and cash shop for all. Let's not forget also that it is part of a very strong Intellectual Property, the Elder Scrolls franchise. Plus, there were still a fair amount of players before it went B2P.
 
Guild Wars 2 is the flagship of the B2P model and has been since the original Guild Wars, which at least partly funded the game. It never transitioned, so its success cannot be compared to WildStar.
 
The only game I know of that matches WildStar's condition is the Secret World. Buy to Play didn't help the game much as I don't think it got any more popular (at least not for long). Even today, I think the population is at most on par with WildStar. Plus, the Secret World now sells content addition as DLCs, which subscribers are not entitled to (they need to buy it, either with money or by saving cash shop tokens their subscription brings).
 
 
So...are there any indications that going Buy to Play will actually help WildStar for more than the two-three weeks of the novelty of the transition?
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Well you're looking at it from one view. I think there are a few ways the aforementioned argument is valid, but you have to appreciate that I wasn't using it solely in the context of Wildstar converting. I don't mean it strictly in terms of content produced either, I mean it in terms of gaining stuff, and in terms of comparative experience.
 
Basically, I meant what I wrote as a general premise concerning F2P, in response to your general premise that F2P works by exploiting one side (if I read you wrong, my bad). Most of all, I meant it specifically as a counterargument to the idea that a F2P system is necessarily a case of the few supporting the many, in a negative light.
 
Here are two examples I can think of that support the idea of 'those who spend X get X', but in that more general context:
 
1. If someone goes with the basic sub (or grinds CREDD) and plays 10 hours a week, while another person purchases and then sells 10 CREDD while also playing 10 hours, the latter will 'get more' out of this game's hybrid model. The same can be said for a true cash shop. This isn't a claim that they'll be overall more thrilled or satisfied, just that, in terms of in-game resources, they'll have more because they spent more.
 
2. Take a system like SWTOR. If you pay the full sub, you get access to everything. If you don't, you get access to a limited amount of things, as well as levels, content, etc. That is indeed a system where if you spend more you get more, or spend less to get less.
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While I don't want to argue on either side of the F2P/B2P and P2P debate, I have a genuine question on the matter.
 
Has anyone ever witness a MMORPG with a limited population which a transition to Buy to Play actually increase the population?
 
 
The Elder Scrolls Online is quick to be cited, but this game is doing way more then transition into a B2P system, they are releasing on PS4 and XBone. Plus, they already stated they will sell all future content addition as DLCs (only allowing subscribers to "rent" said DLCs). What they might lose in terms of subscribers, they gain in console selling, DLCs and cash shop for all. Let's not forget also that it is part of a very strong Intellectual Property, the Elder Scrolls franchise. Plus, there were still a fair amount of players before it went B2P.
 
Guild Wars 2 is the flagship of the B2P model and has been since the original Guild Wars, which at least partly funded the game. It never transitioned, so its success cannot be compared to WildStar.
 
The only game I know of that matches WildStar's condition is the Secret World. Buy to Play didn't help the game much as I don't think it got any more popular (at least not for long). Even today, I think the population is at most on par with WildStar. Plus, the Secret World now sells content addition as DLCs, which subscribers are not entitled to (they need to buy it, either with money or by saving cash shop tokens their subscription brings).
 
 
So...are there any indications that going Buy to Play will actually help WildStar for more than the two-three weeks of the novelty of the transition?
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The only game I know of that matches WildStar's condition is the Secret World. Buy to Play didn't help the game much as I don't think it got any more popular (at least not for long). Even today, I think the population is at most on par with WildStar. Plus, the Secret World now sells content addition as DLCs, which subscribers are not entitled to (they need to buy it, either with money or by saving cash shop tokens their subscription brings).
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Not what I meant but just to reply, that doesn't mean carbine would do it bad. By saying you will NOT play because its F2P is actually closed minded. I dont really like F2P games (as my main MMO) because they do lack constant new content, but thats not the point. The point being, that not even giving it a try is closed minded. The meaning of being closed minded actually describes perfectly what you have described.
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I wouldn't mind a cash shop if subscribers and CREDD users were given what was developed for it the second it was released.  I wouldn't mind a lot of things.
 
But F2P and B2P are no longer "anything that isn't a sub", they're a sort of industry fallback, and one that's pretty repellent. 
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I try not to look at things from one view, I do try to keep a realistic perspective though.  What I'm trying to communicate, if I had to break down the previous evidence just into bullet point conclusions, are:
 
-F2P intrinsically produces less substantial content, less improvements, and less gameplay reliable features
 
-The content it does produce comes at a cost (the previously mentioned lost production) and produces relatively insubstantial content
 
-The previously mentioned insubstantial content will always come at a far higher monetary cost to take advantage even of the entirety of developed content, so you'll pay more for it
 
-Odds are you'll pay less than that, which means development hours were wasted as to the player perspective.
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It's very possible, considering a lot of people mention GW2 in comparison to this.  NCSoft makes no money from GW2 and Wildstar competing.
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GW2 and Wildstar are very different seems you have never played GW2, is that correct?
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