122804-stop-wasting-effort-on-new-content-that-does-not-allow-progression-page-3

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have you guys even thought about how hard it would be to balance challenging solo content?
 
its not just shiphands with more life and damage. certain classes are better at solo than others. so you would have 3 options
 
1. make difficult solo content but lower difficulty to lowest common denominator class (dont want only stalkers or warriors to get the best gear, should be accomplishable by every class)
2. make individual instances for each class so it can still be difficult (a lot of work)
3. just make it really difficult and disregard classes
 
want an example of how bad this could be?
 
imagine if you could complete normal stl in under 2min you got legendary gear (how many classes can do this? how hard is it for some classes over others?)
have you played a game called diablo? you can do solo play and push greater rifts for more rewards. do you think a witch doctor does as well as a demon hunter solo? nope
 
so since option #3 is totally out you are left with #1 and #2. #1 wont work because then it would be too easy for every other class, everyone gets gear easy (you dont have this problem in group play though because that is how the game is balanced). lastly we have option #2, if you can get the boys upstairs to do it im all for it. but that means you have to balance 6 different encounters with 6x the amount of work. have fun!
 
but im sure this is all worth it and you guys thought all of this through before asking for more challenging solo content with equivalent rewards.
 
there is absolutely no comparison to the difficulty of group play vs solo play with respects to end-game raiding. no contest at all! there is nothing more difficult than finding 19 other people and having them perform correctly to down a boss.
			
				
	Edited February 22, 2015 by BusterCasey	
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you can have challenging content that takes 30min.  but I am not talking about give me loot, there still has to be a challenge.  if i complete a 30min segment of challenging content i should not receive a full set of the best gear.  but at the same time I should be able to work up to a full set of the best gear by overcoming challenging content in 30min segments over time. all i am asking for is a away to work towards top end gear with out raiding.
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If you can get the top end gear on your own without the difficulties faced in a group, it does trump the group gear.  You can make the solo content as tough as possible for a solo person to do alone, but as has been pointed out group content will always be more difficult.  You can throw more difficult and complicated mechanics at a group than you can at a solo player, because the group will have more healing and mitigation than a solo person can have and more people to handle the complicated mechanics.  
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The types of mechanics that can be used to make solo content challenging are not identical to those used to make group content challenging, but the fact that a solo player has to simultaneously do damage, heal, and mitigate all at once is substantially more complicated than the "I do damage. That is all I do." type of play that typifies raids. No one person in a raid requires anywhere near the adaptability of a solo player who can't count on other people and can afford to simply hypertune to do just one thing.
 
Additionally, as has been pointed out, most of the group can die during the fight and they will still all win the fight at the end. The same is not true for solo content, where nobody can die for the boss to be downed successfully.
 
So your "group content will always be more difficult" statement is just as readily invalidated now as it was the first time someone said it in this thread.
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I first saw this thread yesterday, it was sitting at 3 pages...I'll keep my first impressions of the thread to myself. Now today, with the Thread sitting at 9 pages, I feel like I should sit up and type something. 
 
I've skimmed through this thread, read some back and forth discussion and arguments, scrolled through a lot...And the one thought I take away from all this...is that it sounds like someone is jealous of someone else's raid gear. 
 
Honestly, did you see a raider strolling through Illium, or riding on their green hoverbike and think to yourself, 'Hey, I want that...why can't I have that?' Then looked online, saw what was required and immediately went to the forums to post about solo gear progression so you too could wear that gear and be as cool as them?
 
Raiding isn't just about how hard a enemy hits you or, how difficult it is to dodge their attacks, how much health they have or any mechanics to diffuse throughout the encounter...its all those things at once.  Not only do you have to focus on damaging the boss, you have to count on your friends to do it too, and when the time comes you have to rely on those around you to do their part.  A random person has to be held responsible for jumping of X-89s platform with the big bomb, dedicated people have to kick System Deamons every-time without fail, switching kickers every min or so...The raid has to split into 4 groups to Dps down the adds before they get to Ohmna...the amount of coordination is what makes raiding hard, and so rewarding.  
 
To turn that into a solo experience, it takes away a lot of what makes a MMO a cooperative multiplier game.  I understand you want to progress your character.  But your view on 'End Game' is a flawed one, Orange gear isn't natural progression, its your chosen path to a particular sector of group content that is really only needed for that content. Just like Pvp gear, Raiding gear is used mainly for raids.  Player progression ends at lvl 50 and then you can choose how you want to spend your time existing in the world the developers made for you...whether it be raiding, pvp, roleplay, crafting ect.  
 
To end this little rant I'll say this.  Brutally difficult and competitive solo experiences is in itself, and impossibility.  When developing for a single player, you have to develop for everyone in terms of difficulty. If you over-tuned the encounter for only a handful to complete, the support and feedback sections of the forums would explode with unhappy customers who are getting beat into the ground by something developed singularly for them. Raids can overcome this issue by being a separate part of the game, much like Pvp, that a subsection of the player base will want to do.  
 
I understand wanting to make your character stronger, to see the fruits of your labor on your character and the power to defeat your enemies with all possible ease. But I don't get that feeling from the conversations on this thread.  I get a sense of jealousy, the desperate need of comparable gear to raiders.  It's all about equality on this thread, its all about being on par..but as many others have outlined...having to rely on others by nature makes the content more difficult.  So raid gear will always be, and will have to be better than anything you can achieve by yourself. 
 
Despite its title, this thread is not about challenging Solo content almost everybody can agree there is a need for more experiences like Omnicore and more are on the way.  That topic is easy to understand and debate.  No, this thread is centered around jealousy, about looking good, being a 'cool kid', and being the best without raiding.  
 
This has all been said before, and still this thread 'Trucks' on.  Nothing we say or eloquently explain will change the minds of those who debate against us. This thread has been turned into a elongated troll and needs to be locked.  	
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i dont think it should trump but it should be equal equal to, give an alternative to raiding.  no reason raid gear has to be the only top end gear or the best top end gear. but just like raids i would expect that only the top players would be able to compete in solo content of that level.
just because soloing is on par with group content does not mean there is no reason to have other people around.  its still nice to socialize and even as a solo player I like to group up as well.  I would just like to have more options to get to the end game.
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no you dont do all 3 rolls in solo content you do 1 role and its called dps. you have a little mitigation to survive during but its just going to be a dps race (tanks/dps classes cant heal so wouldnt be required in a fight. plus the fights wouldnt ever be long enough). youd heal up between encounters.
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Despite its title, this thread is not about challenging Solo content almost everybody can agree there is a need for more experiences like Omnicore and more are on the way.  That topic is easy to understand and debate.  No, this thread is centered around jealousy, about looking good, being a 'cool kid', and being the best without raiding.  
 
This has all been said before, and still this thread 'Trucks' on.  Nothing we say or eloquently explain will change the minds of those who debate against us. This thread has been turned into a elongated troll and needs to be locked.  
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I first saw this thread yesterday, it was sitting at 3 pages...I'll keep my first impressions of the thread to myself. Now today, with the Thread sitting at 9 pages, I feel like I should sit up and type something. 
 
I've skimmed through this thread, read some back and forth discussion and arguments, scrolled through a lot...And the one thought I take away from all this...is that it sounds like someone is jealous of someone else's raid gear. 
 
Honestly, did you see a raider strolling through Illium, or riding on their green hoverbike and think to yourself, 'Hey, I want that...why can't I have that?' Then looked online, saw what was required and immediately went to the forums to post about solo gear progression so you too could wear that gear and be as cool as them?
 
Raiding isn't just about how hard a enemy hits you or, how difficult it is to dodge their attacks, how much health they have or any mechanics to diffuse throughout the encounter...its all those things at once.  Not only do you have to focus on damaging the boss, you have to count on your friends to do it too, and when the time comes you have to rely on those around you to do their part.  A random person has to be held responsible for jumping of X-89s platform with the big bomb, dedicated people have to kick System Deamons every-time without fail, switching kickers every min or so...The raid has to split into 4 groups to Dps down the adds before they get to Ohmna...the amount of coordination is what makes raiding hard, and so rewarding.  
 
To turn that into a solo experience, it takes away a lot of what makes a MMO a cooperative multiplier game.  I understand you want to progress your character.  But your view on 'End Game' is a flawed one, Orange gear isn't natural progression, its your chosen path to a particular sector of group content that is really only needed for that content. Just like Pvp gear, Raiding gear is used mainly for raids.  Player progression ends at lvl 50 and then you can choose how you want to spend your time existing in the world the developers made for you...whether it be raiding, pvp, roleplay, crafting ect.  
 
To end this little rant I'll say this.  Brutally difficult and competitive solo experiences is in itself, and impossibility.  When developing for a single player, you have to develop for everyone in terms of difficulty. If you over-tuned the encounter for only a handful to complete, the support and feedback sections of the forums would explode with unhappy customers who are getting beat into the ground by something developed singularly for them. Raids can overcome this issue by being a separate part of the game, much like Pvp, that a subsection of the player base will want to do.  
 
I understand wanting to make your character stronger, to see the fruits of your labor on your character and the power to defeat your enemies with all possible ease. But I don't get that feeling from the conversations on this thread.  I get a sense of jealousy, the desperate need of comparable gear to raiders.  It's all about equality on this thread, its all about being on par..but as many others have outlined...having to rely on others by nature makes the content more difficult.  So raid gear will always be, and will have to be better than anything you can achieve by yourself. 
 
Despite its title, this thread is not about challenging Solo content almost everybody can agree there is a need for more experiences like Omnicore and more are on the way.  That topic is easy to understand and debate.  No, this thread is centered around jealousy, about looking good, being a 'cool kid', and being the best without raiding.  
 
This has all been said before, and still this thread 'Trucks' on.  Nothing we say or eloquently explain will change the minds of those who debate against us. This thread has been turned into a elongated troll and needs to be locked.  
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You are designing according to the Trinity. Well-designed solo play doesn't work that way at all. Sorry. You cannot just be a DPS machine with a little mitigation if you're fighting something you can't just blow through. As for timers, the one thing that soloers who do group content alone always need is large blocks of time. Every fight they do takes WAY longer for them than it does for a group, and requires much more emphasis on survival than what you're describing.
 
So I guess you may be an expert raider, but that doesn't make you an expert solo'er. It is not just EZmode raiding for one.
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I have to say that was a little hateful and narrow minded.  
why is wanting different challenges "a sense of jealousy"  why is wanting to play challenging content with deserving rewards desperate?
what your saying is "raiders get everything and if you want to do other things you get nothing" that's a very narrow minded approach.  
no one said raiding wasn't hard and that raiders didn't deserve cool rewards for their effort but you are saying that if you don't raid you don't deserve cool rewards for your efforts.
there is room for other ways to play.  i am sorry if that offends your scene of entitlement or elitism.  
if top end gear is not progression I suggest you prove it by selling all your gear.  but you need it for the content you like.  why wouldn't other people need it for the content they like if the content was just as challenging?  
 
just because you don't like the debate and cant make a valid argument why solo instances cant be just as challenging as raiding other than saying "it is because there are people involved" does not mean it should be locked.
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I have to say that was a little hateful and narrow minded.  
why is wanted different challenges "a sense of jealousy"  why is wanted play challenging content with deserving rewards desperate?
what your saying is "raiders get everything and if you want to do other things you get nothing" that's a very narrow minded approach.  
no one said raiding wasn't hard and that raiders didn't deserve cool rewards for their effort but you are saying that if you don't raid you don't deserve cool rewards for your efforts.
there is room for other ways to play.  i am sorry if that offends your scene of entitlement or elitism.  
if top end gear is not progression I suggest you prove it by selling all your gear.  but you need it for the content you like.  why wouldn't other people need it for the content they like if the content was just as challenging?  
 
just because you don't like the debate and cant make a valid argument why solo instances cant be just as challenging as raiding other than saying "it is because there are people involved" does not mean it should be locked.
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To turn that into a solo experience, it takes away a lot of what makes a MMO a cooperative multiplier game.  I understand you want to progress your character.  But your view on 'End Game' is a flawed one, Orange gear isn't natural progression, its your chosen path to a particular sector of group content that is really only needed for that content. Just like Pvp gear, Raiding gear is used mainly for raids.  Player progression ends at lvl 50 and then you can choose how you want to spend your time existing in the world the developers made for you...whether it be raiding, pvp, roleplay, crafting ect.  
 
 
 
 
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 you have a point when raiding gear functions only in raids. Until then the "you don't raid so you don't need it" argument is invalid.
 
at this point this thread is simply going around in circles so I will refrain from the long post I wish to write. Certain segments of the community are too invested in maintaining raiders protected species status and too invested in keeping MMO's in there current stagnating in 2003 state to listen to reason or think objectively.
 
I will just leave this here. I bolded the important part for you
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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I'll admit that I went through about 3-4 pages of this thread before I had to stop at the nonsense.  Unfortunately, what most of you are missing here, is that the OP has a very valid point, and that there is a solution to the issue that he is bringing up.
 
You see, FFXIV:ARR is aware of this problem, and solves it with a parallel gear (raid) set that is purchased by accruing currency with a weekly cap.  There is a set of gear with the same item level of the end-game raiding gear (save the end-boss weapons), that softens the blow of RNG drops, and provides all players valid progression without being punished for being unable to make raid times, not being able to raid thanks to their job, wife, kids, or disabilities.
 
There is a very good reason why MMOs cater to casuals, it's because the amount of people that are capable of (and here's the important part) experiencing the content of DS and other similar "hardcore" aspects, is the minority.  
 
What's the point of spending developer time on creating raid content if only 200 people are going to ever see the end-boss?
 
Gear progression is supposed to be the tool used to separate and tier raiding content.  Wildstar is missing that parallel gear set to get people into DS.  Why is there no currency that runs parallel to GA and provides equal item level gear that can be obtained from content participation?  If someone kills X-89 for 6 weeks straight, why shouldn't they be able to receive an ilvl equivalent of something that Ohmna might drop?  Why would you limit your playerbase like this?
 
.... and I know what you're thinking here: "What's the point of raid dropped gear if you're just going to get it anyway?"
 
Well, in FFXIV, best in slot gear was a mixture of weekly capped parallel gear AND raid drops.  That means that all players had carrots, and even the casuals without the dedication, time, and "player skill," can eventually have the gear necessary (the tool) to experience all of the content this game has to offer?
 
  Without an adequate parallel gear treadmill, you're selling yourself short, and you're saying that the only reason you're beating Avatus is because you're the ones that have spent 30-40 hours a week grinding / wiping / RNG rolling the gear to obtain the ability to survive, do damage, or heal, on par for what is necessary to beat the end-boss.  If more people had i75 or whatever gear it is, I'd imagine you'd see a lot more Avatus kills.
 
Not to mention, not having a parallel gear progression discourages ALTS, something this game really needs to encourage.
Thanks OP, for very clearly bringing to light, one of the major detractors for this game, and it's lack of accessibility.  The trick to MMOs is making a game for everyone that has hardcore and challenging content for people that like it, not the other way around.  That's how you make money, pay for good developers / servers, and pay for people to make hardcore and challenging content.
			
				
	Edited February 22, 2015 by BusterCasey	
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{| class="blockquote"
I'll admit that I went through about 3-4 pages of this thread before I had to stop at the nonsense.  Unfortunately, what most of you are missing here, is that the OP has a very valid point, and that there is a solution to the issue that he is bringing up.
 
You see, FFXIV:ARR is aware of this problem, and solves it with a parallel gear (raid) set that is purchased by accruing currency with a weekly cap.  There is a set of gear with the same item level of the end-game raiding gear (save the end-boss weapons), that softens the blow of RNG drops, and provides all players valid progression without being punished for being unable to make raid times, not being able to raid thanks to their job, wife, kids, or disabilities.
 
There is a very good reason why MMOs cater to casuals, it's because the amount of people that are capable of (and here's the important part) experiencing the content of DS and other similar "hardcore" aspects, is the minority.  
 
What's the point of spending developer time on creating raid content if only 200 people are going to ever see the end-boss?
 
Gear progression is supposed to be the tool used to separate and tier raiding content.  Wildstar is missing that parallel gear set to get people into DS.  Why is there no currency that runs parallel to GA and provides equal item level gear that can be obtained from content participation?  If someone kills X-89 for 6 weeks straight, why shouldn't they be able to receive an ilvl equivalent of something that Ohmna might drop?  Why would you limit your playerbase like this?
 
.... and I know what you're thinking here: "What's the point of raid dropped gear if you're just going to get it anyway?"
 
Well, in FFXIV, best in slot gear was a mixture of weekly capped parallel gear AND raid drops.  That means that all players had carrots, and even the casuals without the dedication, time, and "player skill," can eventually have the gear necessary (the tool) to experience all of the content this game has to offer?
 
There are a lot of special snowflakes in this thread that want to protect the sheer amount of life-consuming hours they've spent wiping in raids, for their own orange gear and egos.  Without an adequate parallel gear treadmill, you're selling yourself short, and you're saying that the only reason you're beating Avatus is because you're the ones that have spent 30-40 hours a week grinding / wiping / RNG rolling the gear to obtain the ability to survive, do damage, or heal, on par for what is necessary to beat the end-boss.  If more people had i75 or whatever gear it is, I'd imagine you'd see a lot more Avatus kills.
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 If someone kills X-89 for 6 weeks straight, why shouldn't they be able to receive an ilvl equivalent of something that Ohmna might drop?  Why would you limit your playerbase like this?
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I didn't agree that I should BE FORCED to grind the easy 4 man content to get gear that replaced the drops I received in the 8 man content (which was obviously more difficult).  It is my personal belief that all BiS gear should come from the content that is the most difficult.  
 
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I'm still surprised they haven't dropped a 10 man groupfinder raid into the mix, 2 tanks, 2 heals 5 dps. Maybe a shorter version of GA and DS with gear somewhere between dungeons and existing GA loot. I know people will say listen people are doing pug GA runs now GF isn't needed yada yada yada. I think having different levels of of actual group content is a good thing, and having an easy way to get in and do it is even better. 
 
Outside of making it easier for new players to get raid ready, amps, ability points, gear is all something a new player is going to struggle with. No weapons via glory doesn't really help either. 
 
I'd also like to see attunement become a thing of the past. Barring players from content is a bad, bad idea. Yes I remember having to grind all the silver dungeons and world bosses. I didn't think it was fun, I don't think new players to the game will think it is fun. You already have the non stop grind for amp/ability points at 50 why bar the way into group content. 
 
I'd also like to see the idea of having to run to a adventure/dungeon to unlock it go away. If you dint happen to tag when leveling why should you run back and unlock it at 50. Also with no players queuing or no groups poping while leveling the incentive to run there is very underwhelming.  
 
I tried to queue for the new level 10 dungeon the other day, for 2 hours and didn't get a single hit. It's great that you spent time making one, it's sad that I may never get to see it. 
 
On thing to consider due to the lower population or population imbalance is to make all queueable (GF) content cross faction. I don't care who I am killing bosses with I just want actually queues to pop, that's including level 50 content that even now takes for ever at least on the dominion side. I havent seen an adventure pop in weeks and dungeons sometimes take an hour or more even as a support class that is just to long.
 
I do find that as long as you find the right guild you can get raiding in 3 nights a week at about 3 hours a clip. That is enough to clear one of the raids and start the next one. 
 
I'm not sure if any of this will help bring new players to the game or keep existing ones here, but it's a few things that I really don't enjoy and it keeps me from rolling more alts, whats the point if I can't gear amp/ability point them enough to get into raids without melting my face off with play time. 	
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This thread is ridiculous. I am giving my official +1 to Rhodrick and Olivar. If you do not raid, you have no need for raid gear.
 
*edit* also a 10 man group finder would not solve any problems. You would still need 10 people (aka not solo), and it still would not be as strong as 20 man, so the complaints would still come in.	
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{| class="blockquote"
I'll admit that I went through about 3-4 pages of this thread before I had to stop at the nonsense.  Unfortunately, what most of you are missing here, is that the OP has a very valid point, and that there is a solution to the issue that he is bringing up.
 
You see, FFXIV:ARR is aware of this problem, and solves it with a parallel gear (raid) set that is purchased by accruing currency with a weekly cap.  There is a set of gear with the same item level of the end-game raiding gear (save the end-boss weapons), that softens the blow of RNG drops, and provides all players valid progression without being punished for being unable to make raid times, not being able to raid thanks to their job, wife, kids, or disabilities.
 
There is a very good reason why MMOs cater to casuals, it's because the amount of people that are capable of (and here's the important part) experiencing the content of DS and other similar "hardcore" aspects, is the minority.  
 
What's the point of spending developer time on creating raid content if only 200 people are going to ever see the end-boss?
 
Gear progression is supposed to be the tool used to separate and tier raiding content.  Wildstar is missing that parallel gear set to get people into DS.  Why is there no currency that runs parallel to GA and provides equal item level gear that can be obtained from content participation?  If someone kills X-89 for 6 weeks straight, why shouldn't they be able to receive an ilvl equivalent of something that Ohmna might drop?  Why would you limit your playerbase like this?
 
.... and I know what you're thinking here: "What's the point of raid dropped gear if you're just going to get it anyway?"
 
Well, in FFXIV, best in slot gear was a mixture of weekly capped parallel gear AND raid drops.  That means that all players had carrots, and even the casuals without the dedication, time, and "player skill," can eventually have the gear necessary (the tool) to experience all of the content this game has to offer?
 
  Without an adequate parallel gear treadmill, you're selling yourself short, and you're saying that the only reason you're beating Avatus is because you're the ones that have spent 30-40 hours a week grinding / wiping / RNG rolling the gear to obtain the ability to survive, do damage, or heal, on par for what is necessary to beat the end-boss.  If more people had i75 or whatever gear it is, I'd imagine you'd see a lot more Avatus kills.
 
Not to mention, not having a parallel gear progression discourages ALTS, something this game really needs to encourage.
Thanks OP, for very clearly bringing to light, one of the major detractors for this game, and it's lack of accessibility.  The trick to MMOs is making a game for everyone that has hardcore and challenging content for people that like it, not the other way around.  That's how you make money, pay for good developers / servers, and pay for people to make hardcore and challenging content.
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			Also, I am curious. I have seen a lot of comments about how few people raid and see end bosses. The last comment by Eclips used, what I hope was exaggerated, 200 people. How many people do a lot of you "solo content for raid lvl gear" activists think actually have seen Ohmna?	
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Wow, someone who actually gets it. Admittedly ARR is a much better game and that is reflected in their sub numbers, SE just seem to understand what it is that mmo players want. The parallel gear with weekly currencies is a stroke of genius that always motivates endgame players to log in and do conent, whether it be dungeons, raids, PvP, Trials etc..
 
But then SE's mantra is that everyone who plays their game should be able to have fun and progress in a similar manner, no matter what type of player they are. Carbine on the other hand believe that only the hardcore should have access to the best gear/content their game has to offer.
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Also, I am curious. I have seen a lot of comments about how few people raid and see end bosses. The last comment by Eclips used, what I hope was exaggerated, 200 people. How many people do a lot of you "solo content for raid lvl gear" activists think actually have seen Ohmna?
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That's... not actually how it worked.  You weren't forced to do anything, it is an optional gear parallel.  Further, if you were actively participating in the content, you received the currency at a higher rate.  That put it on a sliding scale.  If you could only kill 1 boss, then you could make up the lost time by doing dungeons etc and gaining the parallel currency.  If you could clear all but the last boss, you maybe only had to do 1-2 random things to finish the currency, if at all.  BiS gear is obtained by 1.  Completing the most difficult content AND spending the extra currency you obtain parallel to it, appropriately.
 
 
 
You're not being rewarded with the awesome looking loot / artifact weapons / mounts.  You're having made available more powerful gear that helps you get to your end-goal, overtime.  It means that if you never see Esper DPS loot for 6 weeks, your esper isn't shit out of luck and is still a viable raider.  Now, GA and DS gear has mini-bosses, something no one has even brought up here yet, but obviously the goal is to get you closer to completing the goal, with a gear handicap.
 
The important perspective shift here is that GEAR IS A TOOL TO COMPLETE CONTENT, NOT A REWARD.  Artifact weapons / mounts / titles / bragging rights etc are a reward.
 
 
It has  been my experience in MMOs, that not every player is going to be "as good," as another player.  A lot of "player skill," errors, and mistakes, are mitigated by better gear.  If Jonny Warrior can't avoid telegraphs very well, eventually he's going to have better gear and get 3 shot, instead of 2 shot by fire.  At least eventually, people will be able to EXPERIENCE the content that this game has to offer.
 
Gear shouldn't be the reward, it should be the tool. That's the progression guild mindset.
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According to Wildstar Progress, there have been 335 guild to step foot in GA. Assuming that each of them only had exactly 20 players see the content, that means 6700 players have seen GA. Of that around 85 were 6/6. So also assuming only 20 players in each guild group, that is 1700 players having cleared GA. Now I am going to say that most guilds have brought in a lot more than 20 players to see the raid content. I know my guild has brought upwards of 60+ people into GA at some point, and 35-40+ have killed Ohmna. I am just saying. 1% seems to be a bit low. 
 
Now does that mean we don't need more difficult non-raid content.. no. There is a lot of value in hard solo and small group content. But to say it deserves the same gear as 20 man raids is ridiculous. Raids are that hardest and require the most coordination by a large group of people, they deserve to have the best PvE gear.
 
I just don't see the point of smaller groups, that require less coordination and have to be balanced differently should receive the same level of rewards.	
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I'm all for this. If indeed they make solo content that is so difficult it requires the time, energy and commitment that it takes to raid and progress through that solo content, great. I'm all for it.
 
But if this is the case, how do you overcome the natural class imbalances which make certain kinds of play more difficult. Warriors don't have good sustain, so if it was a boss with incredibly high health but hit like a ninny for awhile, it would kill a warrior but not an esper with natural healing? How do you overcome the problem that in inherit in arena 2's (where you can't balance something with only 2 classes, as I have heard you say yourself I think) and make the problem worse by turning it into solo content?
 
How do you avoid what CK talked about and having to make 6 different instances with different bosses which are catered to a particular class? Because if they are having trouble with 1 raid balance, I can only imagine 6 different raids for all the different classes?
 
Personally, it isn't that I don't want solo content players to have an avenue to advance their character, its that I honestly cannot fathom how you could make solo content as hard as the 20 man group content without it being stale and boring. And even if that was made, those players would still likely be working on the content for awhile (4-5 months) before they were clearing the content consistent, and I am doubting you could work on it in "30 minute chunks" and get anywhere meaninful unless you were devoting 15+ 30 minute chunks of time. 30 minutes isn't enough to clear trash up to the boss or finish a miniboss in GA if you are starting out.
 
And I am honestly curious if you made a solo raid that required 3 months of progression spending 9--12 hours each week to get to the final boss, how many of these solo players would actually complete the content. I don't know the number, but I am better it is similar to the amount of the population which raids relative to the whole population. Because I am betting that "hardcore" solo players are about as rare as "hardcore" group players.
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The answer is don't make solo content. We've already been over in another thread why adding things like solo instances in stupid in an mmo. They could just do what every other mmo is doing and add parallel raids which are easier but less rewarding. The reality isn't that loads of mmo plaers like to play the game solo, it's more that the game doesn't prepare or reward people for group content so they choose to play solo instead.
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The answer is don't make solo content. We've already been over in another thread why adding things like solo instances in stupid in an mmo. They could just do what every other mmo is doing and add parallel raids which are easier but less rewarding. The reality isn't that loads of mmo plaers like to play the game solo, it's more that the game doesn't prepare or reward people for group content so they choose to play solo instead.
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That's... not actually how it worked.  You weren't forced to do anything, it is an optional gear parallel.  Further, if you were actively participating in the content, you received the currency at a higher rate.  That put it on a sliding scale.  If you could only kill 1 boss, then you could make up the lost time by doing dungeons etc and gaining the parallel currency.  If you could clear all but the last boss, you maybe only had to do 1-2 random things to finish the currency, if at all.  BiS gear is obtained by 1.  Completing the most difficult content AND spending the extra currency you obtain parallel to it, appropriately.
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How do you balance solo content?
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On the contrary, I loved the idea of Omnicore-1 being a soloable story instance that paralleled the raid.  It doesn't have lasting benefit, but it was fantastic for delivering story imo.
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You don't.  You make group content more accessible to all players.  You do this by making better gear, more accessible, and in some cases, tuning down content upon release of newer raid tiers.
 
Well, while my napkin math seems relatively low, I imagine the way you used your sources might be overestimating.  Some hard data would be required here, and that's really something only Carbine has available to them.
 
Even with your numbers, 1700 players being 6/6 GA isn't that much.  Let's TRIPLE that number, and do some math. 100,000 / 5100.  That's approximately 5% of the players paying 15$ month, to see the content.... and that's just genetic archives.  What about Datascape?
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. Carbine on the other hand believe that only the hardcore should have access to the best gear/content their game has to offer.
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And why can't solo content have a 'hardcore'  aspect to it?  Again, people seem stuck on the idea that solo = weaksauce.   That ONLY 20-40 man raids can provide 'hardcore'  gameplay.  Why?   
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If you wanted to cap tomestones each week, yes, you did have to do stupid simple content to get the best in slot gear as fast as possible (which is what hardcore players do).  And until you could clear all the content in a given tier, granted that was typically a 1-2 week process for my team, you didn't immediately get near capping for a little bit.
 
It only works for FFXIV because the game is easy.  Wildstar, wanting to be difficult, cannot just give gear away that is on par, if not better, than gear obtained in the most difficult content.
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That's approximately 5% of the players paying 15$ month, to see the content.
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If you can find a way to balance solo content to be as difficult as a 20 man raid. Then yes, equal gear is okay. But it is nearly impossible to balance 1 solo instance for each and every class and still be on equal difficulty as a 20 man raid. But if it does happen, then I'm all for it.
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You know, your opinion really cements the lack of perspective you're showing here.
"simple content," "game is easy"
 
FFXIV rewarded people for doing their content.  If you think Wildstar is harder, wouldn't their superior system be even more useful here?  Those dungeons that people did in FFXIV to get their currency were pretty hard when you didn't already have the best gear out of it, just like Vet Dungeons are pretty hard until you have the gear / GA gear.  Once you have GA gear, are veteran dungeons not simple content?  Once you have DS gear, is GA not "simple content?"
 
Now you've reached the meat of this whole argument here.  The gear is used as a tool to bring you up the content ladder.
 
What if GA rewarded a currency called, Genetic Glory?  Every 2 weeks, you could have enough currency to fill a slot with an item level equivalent to GA gear, just be completing GA.  Let's say each boss dropped 100 glory, and one piece of ilvl equiv gear was 900 glory.  That would mean that 9 weeks of killing X-89 got you a piece, or 3 weeks of fully clearing GA got you 2 pieces, perhaps to offset RNG.
 
This could get your entire raid into working on DS by 3 months guaranteed, but most likely much sooner.   You wouldn't have to do the same for DS, and could keep the natural progression if you wanted, as long as you shifted it like FFXIV does when a new raid tier is released.
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Your position on this topic makes perfect sense now.  Basically, you believe that If you pay for the game, you are entitled to all gear and content no matter how much time you put in, or how skilled you wish to become.
 
People are not paying to see the content, they are paying for the opportunity to complete challenges.  And the reward for completing said challenge, is gear, which aids in completing the next content.  Should you just skip to Bowser in a mario game just because you bought it?
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if the FFXIV system were imported to Wildstar, you would clear all available raids, and then run war or the wilds a few times to obtain best in slot pieces.  Or you could just run war of the wilds a bunch more times for the same reward.  I just cannot believe that that makes any sense.  Similar reward for 20 war of the wilds as doing GA?
 
btw, I don't really think you want to compare the difficulty of FFXIV to Wildstar.  Their dungeons were never hard.  ever.
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Your position on this topic makes perfect sense now.  Basically, you believe that If you pay for the game, you are entitled to all gear and content no matter how much time you put in, or how skilled you wish to become.
 
People are not paying to see the content, they are paying for the opportunity to complete challenges.  And the reward for completing said challenge, is gear, which aids in completing the next content.  Should you just skip to Bowser in a mario game just because you bought it?
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And why can't solo content have a 'hardcore'  aspect to it?  Again, people seem stuck on the idea that solo = weaksauce.   That ONLY 20-40 man raids can provide 'hardcore'  gameplay.  Why? 
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If you wanted to cap tomestones each week, yes, you did have to do stupid simple content to get the best in slot gear as fast as possible (which is what hardcore players do).  And until you could clear all the content in a given tier, granted that was typically a 1-2 week process for my team, you didn't immediately get near capping for a little bit.
 
It only works for FFXIV because the game is easy.  Wildstar, wanting to be difficult, cannot just give gear away that is on par, if not better, than gear obtained in the most difficult content.
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			Ok, so it's all boiling down to, give everybody raid gear because they pay a sub.  And if you do this carbine will get more subs because everybody can be shiny for however much effort they wish to put in.  Is that right?  That's not the game I bought and am paying for.  Nor would I continue to pay for it.  I want to have something to show for my efforts, and I want people beyond me to have something to show for it that is better than what I have.	
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My main is a healer and there is no solo healing content at all   :(
Please Carbine think about your healers keeping your players alive, we also want some solo content!!!	
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Ok, so it's all boiling down to, give everybody raid gear because they pay a sub.  And if you do this carbine will get more subs because everybody can be shiny for however much effort they wish to put in.  Is that right?  That's not the game I bought and am paying for.  Nor would I continue to pay for it.  I want to have something to show for my efforts, and I want people beyond me to have something to show for it that is better than what I have.
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The problem is that time vs reward should be equal and also keep the skill cap along the solo content.
 
Certain classes just are better in solo content that it would be very hard to balance... also the content might become so grinding (time vs reward) that it's no fun to do. I never hear anyone say that doing the dailies is fun...
Now lets be honest how many times have you replayed a solo game 2, maybe 3 times?
 
I rather see that they make a points system for shiphands as well with unique looking gear inspired by the shiphand.
 
btw it might be nice to be able to trade in 1 currency for another in wildstar with an exchange rate of course so that it's not beneficial to do content over the original one.	
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In a future forward perspective, how does one continue with the way Carbine currently does things, vs my proposed version of FFXIV's system:
 
Upon announcement of a new raid tier, does Carbine place it ahead of Datascape, limiting the accessibility to players who have only cleared Datascape?  That doesn't seem right.  I guess then they would need to either 1. nerf DS, or 2. make GA gear ilvl more available to get started in DS, or 3. make a parallel ilvl gear to DS that let's them have an easier time completing datascape?  I mean really, did they actually consider going full vanilla WoW, and making content only available to the 1%.  Don't they learn their lessons?
 
Eventually, CRB has to release harder content.  At that point, does Carbine only want <2% of their subscribers seeing that content?  Or do they want over 50% of subscribers to be able to see the content that the developers have worked so hard on.  Do they want to continue the cycle that they've put in place, or do they want to break it?
 
Is there a reason why major raiding guilds left this game, and aren't suddenly coming back in droves?  Or are we all just to bow down to the godliness of these DS20 players who are somehow better than millions of other MMO players because they're the only 40 people that have actually killed Avatus.  I think we all know the answer to this one.
 
Carbine, make your raid content accessible.  Make a parallel gearset to GA. Make a parallel gear set to DS.  Give people that are putting in the time a worthwhile sense of accomplishment, and make things accessible.  Giving everyone DS gear isn't going to stop them from standing in red.  It's not going to suddenly propel them into Avatus. Hell, the progression race is over. Enigma won.  Anyone else is monthsbehind.com anyway.  If DS really is as hard as people say it is, don't let gear accessibility / RNG be the reason people aren't seeing content / wiping on it.  Take a page from the PvP books, and let the guild's worth / skill decide who kills Avatus, not those that have spent months farming RNG for the gear required. ;)	
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Datascape is obviously the hardest content out there. Using the same sources (which I am not sure how i could have overestimated my numbers with the source), 17 guilds are currently 1/9 equating to 340 player having killed at least one boss in the hardest PvE content available. Obviously no where near the 1% mark assuming 100,000 players. Datascape 20 has been around for 3 weeks and only 340 players (most likely more since no guild carries only 20 raiders),  have killed 1 boss. If you can find 5 man or solo content to have that kind of difficulty, then I am all for equal gear. However, I do not see that happening ever.
 
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Well, if it were me in charge of deciding, the next raid tier would probably not require Datascape to be completed, but would require at minimum Datascape attunement to be completed and possibly some level of progression through Datascape, say, between 1 and 5 out of 9, meaning at minimum System Daemons would need to be cleared (which by the time this happens I'm sure will not seem like nearly the gate it seems like currently) and at most you would need to have cleared everything up to, but not including the Elemental Pairs. This way, people will at least have had the chance to obtain some Datascape-level gear which will help them as they progress through the first boss, which after they complete will unlock another tier of gear to be purchasable. Basically, the system in place would work just fine for getting people who would be interested in doing a new raid into actually doing that raid.
 
On the topic of why raiders who left aren't coming back in droves, this isn't necessarily because the new systems don't appeal to them. In fact, the guilds that left the game typically did so only partially because the state of the game in general did not appear to be improving at the time, with each content patch being released buggier than the previous without fixing the major flaws in many systems. The other major factor is that the game itself isn't making its comeback yet. Carbine is still only setting up the marketing campaign to try and entice players into joining us on/returning to Nexus. As a result, the major imfluences within these guilds aren't willing to come back yet, and the rest of those people follow suit since they need the people to play with.	
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you're assuming it is difficulty and not accessibility, a lack of players/raiding guilds and a generous helping of Apathy from the playebase keeping those numbers so low. 
 
I am not sure what your point is but content for 340 players is not viable content. It is not successful content (IMO). I think you may be trying to prove how hard DS is but you have only highlighted Wildstar's failure
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Well, if it were me in charge of deciding, the next raid tier would probably not require Datascape to be completed, but would require at minimum Datascape attunement to be completed and possibly some level of progression through Datascape, say, between 1 and 5 out of 9, meaning at minimum System Daemons would need to be cleared (which by the time this happens I'm sure will not seem like nearly the gate it seems like currently) and at most you would need to have cleared everything up to, but not including the Elemental Pairs. This way, people will at least have had the chance to obtain some Datascape-level gear which will help them as they progress through the first boss, which after they complete will unlock another tier of gear to be purchasable. Basically, the system in place would work just fine for getting people who would be interested in doing a new raid into actually doing that raid.
 
On the topic of why raiders who left aren't coming back in droves, this isn't necessarily because the new systems don't appeal to them. In fact, the guilds that left the game typically did so only partially because the state of the game in general did not appear to be improving at the time, with each content patch being released buggier than the previous without fixing the major flaws in many systems. The other major factor is that the game itself isn't making its comeback yet. Carbine is still only setting up the marketing campaign to try and entice players into joining us on/returning to Nexus. As a result, the major imfluences within these guilds aren't willing to come back yet, and the rest of those people follow suit since they need the people to play with.
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Why should solo content not give equivalent gear to raids?  Is there less challenge are they easier?  The same things that make raids challenging can be incorporated into solo content with the obvious exception of time putting the raid together.  You should be able to progress in gear and status in small groups and solo and still have the challenge and cool kid rewards without the unrealistic time sink involved in raiding. 
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			Raids will naturally be nerfed as available gear becomes more powerful. Once people in my raid started getting glory gear, we saw our ability to clear content rise dramatically.	
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I would say that DS would need to be completed and on farm. Each raid should be a step up from the one before, more mechanics, more bosses, more difficulty, more fun. You should need the gear from the prior raid the advance to the next one, no shortcuts. The Developers could even tune it down some, after the major progression guilds have moved forward, to allow for faster access to the next raid. The skipping of content because it locks someone out of a new level of content is the studio wasting resources.
 
As to the raiders that have left, that may be true, but there is something else that may be the cause. The big progression raiding guilds hit a wall they couldn't power through in Wildstar. It's been less than a month since Avatus finally went down, when was the last time a raiding guild had to spend 8 months taking out a final boss? The content is difficult, to say the least, and it broke the will of a lot of these progression guilds. They were used to downing content in a month, two at the outside, and farming it for gear. That, I believe, had more to do with it then the bugs ever did.
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The 40 man Elemental Pairs were a bloody mess and I'm kinda happy I wasn't there from the start, because that must've been one frustrating experience. The performance was horrible, due to way too many particle effects (with some not even despawning, so you had to soft reset DS every few pulls), the tuning was horrible, resulting in massively under and overtuned fights and apparently some of the pairs were also straight up bugged for ages. Just look back at the patch notes just before drop 4, there were almost weekly adjustment to the pairs and some pairs saw almost complete overhauls as well afaik.
 
These issues also existed to a certain degree on the earlier encounters, but weren't nearly as bad. Add to that the roster boss though and it's not hard to see why so many 40 man guilds fell apart. On top off that SD was a massive cockblock for newer DS guilds, who didn't really have the pulling power to keep replacing people that quit, so SD turned into a race against the clock for them. Down it before you lose too many members to keep up a 40 man roster. Needless to say, not many off them succeeded.
 
Either way, I think GA will become skippable with the next tier of content. Currently SSM and Protogames drop i61 gear. The elite dungeon gear from the glory vendor is also i61. The basic GA gear is i63, so the difference is already pretty small. I can definitely see the next tier of dungeons dropping like i67ish gear, that'll sit just below the i68 off the GA sets. Good enough to enter DS, but just that tad weaker to not completely trivialize GA. Also I really think people go overboard with the whole "nobody will see the content!" stuff. Just look how many guilds have killed Ohmna lately, while when the game launched people barely cleared vet stl. As the game continues people get better at it (who'd have thought?!), they get more amps, more skill points and better gear. On top off that we'll be seeing more and more guides for DS bosses, people will find better strategies to deal with them and as such clearing that content becomes a lot easier. I'm pretty sure that by the time the next raid tier comes along, we'll see plenty of people on Avatus.	
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It is difficulty and not accessibility that is the issue. The content requires excellent teamwork, communication, drive, sacrifice, and determination to do. My guild has only just stepped into DS and we see we have a lot more work ahead of us to down System Daemons. That's what makes it so fun, the fact that it is not handed to you and that you could never build a challenge like that for a single player. We only raid, on average 3 days a week, two of those days being weekends, for a few hours on those days. It's not about how long you spend, but if you spend your time on the content. It's not that hard to do and it's not out of reach of the vast majority of players either.
 
For all you solo players out there that are complaining about the raid content, here is a bit of advice.
 
1.) Stop being so anti-social all the damn time, it servers no purpose other than to keep you isolated.
 
2.) Join a guild with a player base in it. Being in your friends guild is all nice and well, but the 7 of you aren't going any further then a dungeon gold run either.
 
3.) Stop thinking you are better then those people in "X" & "Y" guild, because you aren't. They are doing something you can't because they put that type of small mindedness behind them.
 
4.) If you join a guild, get on the damned voice coms and talk to people. You might be surprised how much fun you can have, and you might make a friend or two despite yourself.
 
5.) Have fun. This is a game folks and if come at it like a job, then it will be a job.
 
6.) If you don't enjoy the guild your in, find another. If all the guilds you try out don't fit, then maybe it's time to look in the mirror, because the problem may lie with you.
 
Some of the solo players out there will take offense at this, but I don't care. Experience has taught me that the mindset of the solo MMO player is one of being the lone wolf.  You can't do the content because you don't want the bother of dealing with other people, so you come on the forums and complain about the lack of things for "you" to do. Wolves run in packs and reap the rewards of that bond and teamwork. While the lone wolf soon starves and dies, because it can't take down the pray it needs to survive in the environment it is in.
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Wow...just....wow.  
 
I guess I should thank you for summing up the assumptions and labels that every bad argument against challenging solo content is based on.  According to you, anyone who wants challenging content outside of a raid environment is: 
 
Anti-social.
Is a lone wolf.
In a tiny inactive guild.
Thinks they're better than everyone else.
Small minded.
Doesn't use voice chat.
Doesn't have friends.
Doesn't have fun.
Can't do raids. 
And isn't in a good guild because the problem lies in themselves.  
 
Jesus bro....really?  
 
And you wonder why people argue against this type of mindset?   This isn't about wanting solo play to be better than raiding, or about trying to get free easy gear.  It's about providing options for end-game other than ONLY raiding.  MMOs have expanded to cover many different styles of gameplay.  Why is it such an evil and hateful thing for people to want options? Why is it  SO bad, that someone who wants gameplay and progression outside of raiding is labelled with that much hate?  
 
 
 
 
 
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Playing the victim card now?
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No, pointing out the extremes to which people will go to try and discredit the argument that solo content at end-game is possible.   And simultaneously trying to get people to re-examine those types of arguments by pointing out just how extreme they're being.   
 
Close-mindedness is something this discussion does NOT need. 
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Honestly, I'm all for carbine implementing content for solo players and for small group content, which is both challenging and rewarding, but I really can't see the rewards being implemented any higher than raid level gear, in fact more like vet dungeon gear. I also think a kick ass bunch of titles/mounts/decor/costumes/hoverboards/flairs for completing each in it's entirety would be both very rewarding, iconic (if the challenge was real) and sufficient enough, each reward getting better depending on the challenge and the performance of the players.
 
Kind of like the pvp ranks. In fact, I'd be happy if these small scale things/soloplay would reward loot almost the same stat level as 1800 pvp gear. It's good gear, at a decent ilvl, with an appropriate amount of challenge involved.
 
For me the progression in gear doesn't bother me, I'd much rather be rewarded with things like costumes, titles and mounts I can show.	
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Stop disguising primarily solo content bypassing all end game group/raid content in an MMO as being "open minded".
 
Solo content is a gimmick in MMOs, something to do between raids or dungeons. Nothing more.
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Clearly because then the filthy "casuals" who are not HARDCORE! like he is would be able to progress their characters beyond his. They would be having fun, telling their friends about how the game lets them play and progress without needing a massive group of people, how the game has room for the player to not have to worry about coordinating their schedules with other 19 people. They might even recommend the game! Then more filthy non HARDCORE! casuals might come and play the game and have fun! Oh, and let's not forget the developers might have to split their time in something else besides making new raids and balancing them! And that is simply unnacceptable.
 
{| class="blockquote"
 
 Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing game.
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Well, like I said. Close mindedness isn't something we  need in this discussion.       If you're not even willing to consider the possibility of designs other than raid-only progression, then why are you here?     I understand that people feel like they need to defend raid content, but what I'm suggesting doesn't(or shouldn't) detract from raiding. As I've stated several times now, there is no reason for solo and raid content to be mutually exclusive, and they can both provide challenge and gear.    It doesn't have to be one or the other, so why are you so against it? 
 
 
 
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My main is a healer and there is no solo healing content at all   :(
Please Carbine think about your healers keeping your players alive, we also want some solo content!!!
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Clearly because then the filthy "casuals" who are not HARDCORE! like he is would be able to progress their characters beyond his. They would be having fun, telling their friends about how the game lets them play and progress without needing a massive group of people, how the game has room for the player to not have to worry about coordinating their schedules with other 19 people. They might even recommend the game! Then more filthy non HARDCORE! casuals might come and play the game and have fun! Oh, and let's not forget the developers might have to split their time in something else besides making new raids and balancing them! And that is simply unnacceptable.
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I have see a lot of talk about class balance in this thread.  class balance is always a problem even for raiding.  it really shows up in PVP, and solo content would face some problems there. but just like every other content it can be managed.  there can be solo instances for different classes, specs, and even paths.  they could even incorporate achievements for skill level achieved. There could be several levels of difficulty progressing to harder and harder solo instances, maybe even small group like ship hands.  
 
Shiphands are awesome! I love them. they are a great start in the right direction and I would like to see the next level of challenge with in them. elite Shiphands!	
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This topic has gone on forever, and there's quite a few opinions here. I'll just add my last thoughts here:
 
I believe there can be interesting and fun and challenging solo play content. My personal favorite solo player games are things like Portal.I loved figuring that stuff out! LOVED IT! I will say that I completely agree that challenging solo play does not have to be put forward in the same way that raid content is.
 
I also enjoyed scenarios in The Secret World. Scenarios involved surviving and keeping alive NPCs against waves of attackers along with boss fights. They had normal, expert and nightmare levels of difficulty, as well as the option to run solo, duo, or in groups up to 5. My favorite were duo nightmares - they were challenging and rewarding..and yet I would in no way compare them to raiding.
 
By that same token, solo and small group play doesn't require the same tools/gear as raiding (or PVP). Much like they are moving PVP itemization to be more appropriate and desired for PVP, if they did introduce alternate progression gear for solo/small group play, I expect it would be appropriate for whatever that looks like.
 
I'm not opposed to there being top gear for different playstyles that help you perform at the top of your game for what you are doing.
 
My guild has been raiding since September. We're a fairly laid back group. We've been through our fair share of raiders. We've had to rebuild not once, but twice, in order to keep raiding. We raided 7 hours/week to start, and we still raid less than 9 hours/week. In December, we started over, again, with an almost entirely new raid group. We killed Ohmna tonight for the first time! (so excited!!) The main reason I see that solo play will never be as difficult as raiding is because you can do it alone. You don't have to teach anyone the fights. No one will quit your raid team. You don't have to coordinate anything. It's just you against whatever they are throwing at you, and you can dedicate as much or as little time as you have to it without letting anyone down if you need to stop for the night. They really just aren't comparable playstyles...and that's OK! People can enjoy playing different ways, and there can be different rewards for those styles.
 
I guess that would be my take away point: Different playstyles are good, and there can be fun things to do for all of them within an MMO (and the developers time and desires). Each of those playstyles can have amazing rewards that best suit them. They don't all have to look the same. Also, by having different rewards for different playstyles, it can encourage players to engage in more of what the game offers in order to collect all the cool lootz!	
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This topic has gone on forever, and there's quite a few opinions here. I'll just add my last thoughts here:
 
I believe there can be interesting and fun and challenging solo play content. My personal favorite solo player games are things like Portal.I loved figuring that stuff out! LOVED IT! I will say that I completely agree that challenging solo play does not have to be put forward in the same way that raid content is.
 
I also enjoyed scenarios in The Secret World. Scenarios involved surviving and keeping alive NPCs against waves of attackers along with boss fights. They had normal, expert and nightmare levels of difficulty, as well as the option to run solo, duo, or in groups up to 5. My favorite were duo nightmares - they were challenging and rewarding..and yet I would in no way compare them to raiding.
 
By that same token, solo and small group play doesn't require the same tools/gear as raiding (or PVP). Much like they are moving PVP itemization to be more appropriate and desired for PVP, if they did introduce alternate progression gear for solo/small group play, I expect it would be appropriate for whatever that looks like.
 
I'm not opposed to there being top gear for different playstyles that help you perform at the top of your game for what you are doing.
 
My guild has been raiding since September. We're a fairly laid back group. We've been through our fair share of raiders. We've had to rebuild not once, but twice, in order to keep raiding. We raided 7 hours/week to start, and we still raid less than 9 hours/week. In December, we started over, again, with an almost entirely new raid group. We killed Ohmna tonight for the first time! (so excited!!) The main reason I see that solo play will never be as difficult as raiding is because you can do it alone. You don't have to teach anyone the fights. No one will quit your raid team. You don't have to coordinate anything. It's just you against whatever they are throwing at you, and you can dedicate as much or as little time as you have to it without letting anyone down if you need to stop for the night. They really just aren't comparable playstyles...and that's OK! People can enjoy playing different ways, and there can be different rewards for those styles.
 
I guess that would be my take away point: Different playstyles are good, and there can be fun things to do for all of them within an MMO (and the developers time and desires). Each of those playstyles can have amazing rewards that best suit them. They don't all have to look the same. Also, by having different rewards for different playstyles, it can encourage players to engage in more of what the game offers in order to collect all the cool lootz!
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The problem is that time vs reward should be equal and also keep the skill cap along the solo content.
 
Certain classes just are better in solo content that it would be very hard to balance... also the content might become so grinding (time vs reward) that it's no fun to do. I never hear anyone say that doing the dailies is fun...
Now lets be honest how many times have you replayed a solo game 2, maybe 3 times?
 
I rather see that they make a points system for shiphands as well with unique looking gear inspired by the shiphand.
 
btw it might be nice to be able to trade in 1 currency for another in wildstar with an exchange rate of course so that it's not beneficial to do content over the original one.
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Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing game.
Solo content in equal proportion and/or with equal rewards to multiplayer content have no place in an MMO.
It doesn't make any sense and discourages group play.
 
I'm all for different difficulty settings for current group and raid content, this game desperately needs a "normal" mode for raids and a raid finder with its own difficulty.
Rewarding gear respectively, just like in WoW;  Raid Finder > Normal > What we have now.
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Honestly, I'm all for carbine implementing content for solo players and for small group content, which is both challenging and rewarding, but I really can't see the rewards being implemented any higher than raid level gear, in fact more like vet dungeon gear. I also think a kick ass bunch of titles/mounts/decor/costumes/hoverboards/flairs for completing each in it's entirety would be both very rewarding, iconic (if the challenge was real) and sufficient enough, each reward getting better depending on the challenge and the performance of the players.
 
Kind of like the pvp ranks. In fact, I'd be happy if these small scale things/soloplay would reward loot almost the same stat level as 1800 pvp gear. It's good gear, at a decent ilvl, with an appropriate amount of challenge involved.
 
For me the progression in gear doesn't bother me, I'd much rather be rewarded with things like costumes, titles and mounts I can show.
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Ildur beat me to it.  But I'd like to also point out - AGAIN -  that solo play and group play do not need to be mutually exclusive!  You CAN do both.  Players are not JUST  solo players or raid players.   People can, and do,  participate in any and all forms of content that an MMO provides.   
 
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Of course, but this is not what any of you and jix in particular are suggesting. Main focus of an MMO is group and raid content and solo content should never let you skip/bypass that. It's a gimmick, a convenience.
Solo content in MMOs is meant to be a time killer in between raids or if you just don't feel like dungeons. Having a diverse set of factions to earn reputation in rewarding mounts and other fun items, the ability to run outdated raid content for costume gear like in WoW helps a lot, or even Wildstars player housing system is great to kill some time when there's nothing else to do.
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