146723-wildstar-not-for-this-average-player

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Background: I'm a lifelong gamer married 40s no kids...lots of time and a fair amount of disposable income to spend on gaming. I've been playing MMOs for over a decade, though I don't claim to be a veteran or even of above average skill I have participated successfully in many MMO endgame activities (from raiding to group dailies and everything in between).
 
Opinion: WildStar is a beautiful game, I love the graphics, I love the lore, I freaking adore the character models and I really enjoyed the challenge of leveling as it required a lot more attention than in other games. Got to 50, found a great raiding guild to give me some guidance since I knew entering endgame would be more difficult than in other games I've played. They showed me the ropes, helped me gear up and got me attuned, they even brought me along for the first boss in GA that very same day to unlock the raid gear vendor for me and help me further gear up. My ilvl being 84 and fully runed they encourage me to start queueing for vet dungeons for more practice, glory, gear and runes...fair enough. I found the vet dungeons teeth gnashingly hard but I struggled through for as long as the groups would have me, usually bowing out after my death would wipe them on a boss the third or fourth time. After three separate 2 hour attempts on the last boss of Skullcano with three different groups, including a guildie group, I'm left with the realization I simply don't possess the hand/eye coordination or reflexes to participate in WildStar's endgame. I'm not crying or ranting, this is a simple realization of the limits of my playing ability. However, if a fairly average player like myself who is no noob when it comes to games of this sort can't hack it, I fear for the future of this game given who it's publisher is.	
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All I can say to you, and anyone else new - don't be discouraged.
 
There's a bit of a learning curve, and yeah it is HARD at the start.  You're gonna die a lot, things are going to be awful.
 
But if you keep trying, keep plugging away, you'll start to learn the little tricks, things will become more automatic, and it'll fall into place.
 
I was god awful not even a month ago.  Could hardly dodge a thing.  Playing daily and doing dungeons as often as I can, I've improved quite a bit and can dodge most things without a second though.
 
Oh and the last boss of skullcano?  Don't use him as any indicator.  He's.... A special thing.  RNG, one single tiny mis-step, and a variety of other things will just murder you flat out.  I've had runs where I can avoid everything, and the next pull I get turreted into a lava into a lazer into another lazer.  He STINKS.
 
Being with guildies (especially in a voip) is the best way to learn - and have fun wiping.  The most fun I have is dyign miserably on skullcano, yelling in TS and having a good laugh at the ridiculousness of everything.
 
But seriously - keep at it.  It takes a lot longer than other games to have it click and "git gud" but practice is really what makes it in this game.	
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Knowing the fights and when to expect what is half the battle. If you don't have great hand/eye coordination as you say you simply need to know what's going to happen next.
 
Saying that, Skullcano last boss is HARD. A cc break (incase you get stuck in a pool) and running along the inside edge will help you immensely here. The different beams visually also aren't different enough, slightly thinner is not enough here Carbine. Give one of them jagged edges or something!
 
Also, unless you're the tank or the healer you alone will not wipe a dungeon group. Maybe stick to dps if you are as they are far less important to the group when they die.
			
				
	Edited November 10, 2015 by H3rboss	
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Oh and another thing to note - at least for the last boss on skullcano - change your telegraphs to a dark blue.  The red REALLY blends in and you can end up not seeing lava spawn on you - especially when you're on the inner part of the circle.
 
And yeah - tanks and healers are the ones that need to live 100% of the time (kinda) unless you  have overgeared players.  one DPS dying insn't the end of the world if there are still enough interrupts / dps to finish off the boss.
 
But seriously - Practice practice practice.	
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			I appreciate the feedback and yes, my guildies joked about the Skullcano boss being ridiculous....but they also told me that in DS one person's death will wipe the raid on pretty much every boss. Knowing my skill level that's not something I choose to inflict on my guildies and thusly my conclusion remains the same...this endgame is not for me. Again I'm not crying or wanting anything nerfed so I can participate in WildStar's endgame....I'm smart enough to choose another path when faced with a brick wall rather than applying my head over and over.	
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First of let me say that the simple realization that you are the one having problem with the content and not your group is price worthy in today's mmo community... so cheers to you!
 
Second thing i would like to say is that if you enjoy the game and would like to keep playing do not give up yet. It´s fine to have a hard time with the dungeons. They are no cakewalk and many players are having the same issue as you only they do not have the ability to see it and instead blame everything around them. 
 
If your mind is made up, well sorry dude hope you find a game that fits better but i would hope that you give it a while and let yourself evolve as a player.
 
If you need someone to party up with send me a pm on the forum and ill tag along when i can. 
 
Witch ever you decide to do, 
 
Good Luck and Have Fun!	
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I think that overall this is a really good thing: Far too many games lose their challenge when they get to the "endgame"- I'd even go so far as to say that in many games, the only challenge to be found at "endgame" is to not get bored.
 
That being said, you also don't have to play the game based on what other people call the "endgame" either, Wildstar offers a few different types of content besides just the Vet level raids. (Personally, I spent almost all of my time so far between PVP and housing, I still have yet to even try a lot of the PVE content outside of Deradune.)
			
				
	Edited November 10, 2015 by Pygar Jetrunner	
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I appreciate the feedback and yes, my guildies joked about the Skullcano boss being ridiculous....but they also told me that in DS one person's death will wipe the raid on pretty much every boss. Knowing my skill level that's not something I choose to inflict on my guildies and thusly my conclusion remains the same...this endgame is not for me. Again I'm not crying or wanting anything nerfed so I can participate in WildStar's endgame....I'm smart enough to choose another path when faced with a brick wall rather than applying my head over and over.
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			Sounds like you are being too hard on yourself, everyone dies a lot while learning. I know while learning last boss in SC I died multiple times on the very first laser which is beyond embarrassing. Try to learn from mistakes and as long as you aren't making the same mistakes all the time and never improving, I wouldn't worry about it.	
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Pretty much agree with everyone. I've been in this game since the start so my first guild suffered through half a year of trying to just beat the roster boss to get into raid. All we literally did was run Dungeons for months trying to attune people. That's months of practicing and the process still sucked, because we'd get through STL and KV then hit the occasional brick wall with SSM and SC. We had people quit because we couldn't get through them or straight up abandon us so they could get carried by a larger guild. I can see how your issue can be discouraging, though, because you seem to not understand what a lot of guilds have gone through. 
 
But let me point out how ridiculous your problem is. Do you know how long actual progression is? Some guilds took a month to beat X-89! That's multiple days a week, 15+ wipes a day before they got the hang of it. Kuralak destroyed guilds back in the day, as well. What you need to understand is that a lot of this community isn't concerned with new recruits being insta-OP. Those that claim to be are an overwhelming minority. If you're showing initiative and trying to learn mechanics there are very few guilds that wouldn't take you. If you choose to continue, you will learn it. That's a simple fact. 	
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I appreciate the feedback and yes, my guildies joked about the Skullcano boss being ridiculous....but they also told me that in DS one person's death will wipe the raid on pretty much every boss. Knowing my skill level that's not something I choose to inflict on my guildies and thusly my conclusion remains the same...this endgame is not for me. Again I'm not crying or wanting anything nerfed so I can participate in WildStar's endgame....I'm smart enough to choose another path when faced with a brick wall rather than applying my head over and over.
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I have to echo what everyone else is saying and just give it some more practice.  I know it is disheartening to die on a vet dungeon boss over and over when you want to eventually raid...... but I did the same thing on skullcano. For probably almost 6 hours over a few days I wiped with groups on that last boss.  I began to hate that place so much I resolved that I would learn that fight so damn well that I could carry groups through it.
 
So I did.  Now I can go into that fight with ilvl 82 tank gear that isn't even optimally runed or amped, and kick his ass solo if need be.  I've done it on two different occasions, taking him from half health to dead alone (took forever with a tanks dps tho).  I love the challenge and the eventual satisfaction of finding a way to overcome the difficulty and even circumvent some of the dumb luck bullshit a fight might appear to be.  Focus on what you might be doing wrong or what you can improve, and eventually that feeling you get when you go into a pug and beat down a boss for 5 minutes after all 4 of your group are dead is priceless (along with what your teammates say after).  I started in the position of dying often in the first 15 seconds just like you.
 
 
I imagine there are plenty of people who may take longer to master the stuff than me, but if you can remember it think about what it was like learning to tie your shoes or ride a bike as a kid.  That doesn't come quickly or easily.  Wildstar endgame is the same way, the only question is whether you enjoy the journey or not, and it sounds like if you keep on pushing you will.	
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But let me point out how ridiculous your problem is. Do you know how long actual progression is? Some guilds took a month to beat X-89! That's multiple days a week, 15+ wipes a day before they got the hang of it. 
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			For the record, it took me over two hours to get my first kill on Mordechai Redmoon.... on normal. Our group stuck it out until we did it though which was great. Now my guildies and I can one shot it. It's really practice, this is much more active gameplay style than most mmos.	
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The brick wall is an illusion. Treat it as a challenge, and one day it will snap and you'll wonder why you ever struggled. And you'll laugh at how much fun you are having.
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I was exactly where you were at a four months after the game launched.  I actually ended up taking a break and going back to WoW, and telling myself it was the game that was too much of a pain in the ass.  Well, with the announcement of f2p, I ended up coming back, this time fully ready to go 'all-in'.  Let me tell you...once I really started applying myself and going in with a clean slate attitude, my whole world was turned upside down.  Dungeon mechanics that used to baffle and destroy me suddenly became easy, boss telegraphs that used to turn me into a stain on the floor were easily dodged, and the game in general started to get a little easier every week. 
 
I know it may sound like a BS line, but let me tell you man, once you 'get it', there is no game like this...at all, period.  Being someone on the wrong side of 30, I can totally sympathize with you, but stick it out!  You won't be disappointed!  If you've been playing as long as me (and it sounds like you have) you'll remember that Naxx 40, or Lord Nagafen in EQ were equally as hard until you had that "Got It!!" moment. 	
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34 myself, Wildstar was and is still a challenge for me. And that is the only thing that keeps me playing it.
 
I wiped alot. Like ALOT. Redmoon? Oh yeah, I remember him. Hours of wiping. That "bzzz" sound when the laser kills another poor guy. We had great times, lots of laughing and finally got it down.
 
Now, after 1 1/2 years of Wildstar (the only other MMO I played for so long was Warhammer Online cause best PvP ever!), cleared GA, cleared DS, can't wait to get into the upcoming raid!
 
The combat gets easier after some training, really. Learn to change your LAS for some fights (movement abilities, cc break, defensive cooldowns), don't focus on doing DPS but focus on surviving is the best tip I have for you. Once you learned the mechanics, it becomes much easier to dodge and still do DPS (or heal or whatever).	
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It's a no win situation...make the end easy and obtainable for the average player, or keep it the way it is! The end result will just be the same if your in that mindset.
What the game needs and is slowly getting, more and more casual content, they need to keep building on events, contracts, world bosses while still keeping the edge on the end game.
 
I'm the worse jumper in the game, should they remove jump puzzles?....don't be silly :)  	
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https://youtu.be/bJlzjB9y85Y
			
				
	Edited November 11, 2015 by Cubical	
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if they dont change the difficulty we are doomed cuz its too hard for the average joe
if they change the difficulty and make it easier average joe will be happy here, for some time, and then go back to other games, or stay. the veteran player who enjoyed the hard content will leave because WS was the only game that had challenging raids.
So whatever they do they are doomed, if they keep the hard content line they will at least have core players + a few new players here and there to work with who are bored in other games like wow
			
				
	Edited November 11, 2015 by furoflo	
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Skill in this game isn't something you just have. I mean, I guess some people do, but most people grow into it. Expecting to just be ready for the final raid in the game immediately after 50 is a bit optimistic. But even at that, System Daemons, the first boss, is one of the more difficult fights in the zone, and the individual mechanics are nowhere near the difficulty of the last boss in SC. The challenge comes from teamwork, not jumping over red lasers perfectly and dodging pools.
 
The thing is, if you had progressed naturally through GA from the beginning, you'd be doing fine. The game would teach you. And you can find a guild like that if you want. And if you don't want, it sounds like your guild has already invested in you; time to give back by being patient with yourself and just giving it some time. I remember wiping for 2 hours on Trogun (final boss of KV, not as hard as SC) because one player couldn't dodge the saws. And now, she has a CRITICAL role on System Daemons and never blows it.
 
The brick wall is an illusion. Treat it as a challenge, and one day it will snap and you'll wonder why you ever struggled. And you'll laugh at how much fun you are having.
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To be honest, even guys that clear Datascaper every week without problem, can die at the endboss, mostly because we push to far and he jumps at us in his laser Phase.
 
Keep trying, thats all i can say to you, you will get used to it someday.	
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If it's any consolation, Mordechai Redmoon is really difficult to defeat. I've been in a lot of groups just like yours - and 1 to 2 hour runs are not out of the ordinary. 
They're nerfing his puddle stuff in the next patch however, so I'm hopeful he'll be a little less crazy. Like previous posters has said; Most players exploited the crap out of Mordechai back in the days - so they never felt the actual struggle of doing the encounter. I don't have any issues doing the encounter anymore due to the experience I gathered from the overall game - but that doesn't mean Mordechai is fine. 
 
Only thing I could say is wait it out and check Mordechai out in the next patch. I can hardly imagine a harder dungeon boss in a MMO imo. Depending on your group, Mordechai can range from being your average difficult dungeon boss, or harder than most raid bosses. He's just kind of that boss I suppose, but yeah, nerf next patch - hopeful about it. 	
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			its all practice, and build your las for survivability	
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I hear your pain. Quite similar happens to me.
Im also in 40s, been raiding hardcore in wow few years ago, was quite good, multiple realm 1st kills, guild said im ireplacible, overall above average player.
But WS is completely new beast - veteran dungeons are really hard for me. And no, its not tactics or mechanics, its about reaction time my body cant give anymore.
Ok, it might be easier if having guild runs with everyone willing to learn and improve. Problem is guildies are with really different skills and gearing and we rarely play at same times. We had many tries on veteran bosses and it pains me when its only me dieing 1st. After couple of wipes, I just cant hold them anymore and leave. Holding down someone isnt my style as I dont want to be carried.
And no, just as you, Im not wanting a nerf - Im just stateing endgame content is too hard for me and cant continue playing anymore. Noones fault but mine.
I will try overgearing path maybe - hoarding platinum and buying AH high lvl gear and runes, doing contracts for ilvl 100. At ilvl 73 I just dont have a chance.
			
				
	Edited November 11, 2015 by hugefan	
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@hugefan learning the encounters is knowing what comes next. every encounter in WS is the same and the same every time and once you know what is coming you only have to work on the execution.
just try to survive + do damage the first times and learn the encounters. dps comes with experience/gear.
mordechai is a really bad example since he is harder than most GA bosses if you do it with PUG (compared to doing GA with your guild during progression) because people die so easily there. its not always the telegraph dodging but also stuff like having no cc break or enough stuns when he jumps on you or running away from the 360degree aoe when you dont have enough stuns. Its just a fight that has alot of difficulties and some of those you have not seen before.
you can avoid all damage in this fight besides the autoattacks and when he jumps on you.	
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Or not everyone's experience matches yours?
 
I'd sooner stop playing Wildstar than ever do another dungeon, much less raid, again. That's not to say I don't find plenty to do or don't find Wildstar as my favorite MMO. It's just the ad nauseaum of "Dungeons r teh best!!1!" sets my teeth on edge.
 
Maybe, juuuuust maybe, the things someone thinks are "best" in a game someone else thinks absolutely sucks.
 
I chose not to continue, yet still have a rewarding game experience.
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After three separate 2 hour attempts on the last boss of Skullcano with three different groups, including a guildie group, I'm left with the realization I simply don't possess the hand/eye coordination or reflexes to participate in WildStar's endgame. I'm not crying or ranting, this is a simple realization of the limits of my playing ability. 
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The challenge comes from teamwork, not jumping over red lasers perfectly and dodging pools.
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Don't worry about it. I'm the same! This boss is without doubt the single hardest encounter I've found in the game (up to and including System Daemons in Datascape). The encounter is badly tuned for a number of reasons, but mostly because making a tiny error, or experience a lag spike at the wrong moment kills you instantly. If you are the tank, the healer or the last of the 3 DPS, it's a wipe. 
 
The incoming patch (today?) actually patches this fight. The lava pools are going to be a little more spread out and take a little longer to spawn. That should (depending on how they did it - has anyone tried it on the PTR?) actually make the encounter less unforgiving.
 
I can react to pretty much every other encounter mechanic in the game, and I love that they are difficult. It's why I love this game. But Redmoon has always been a step too far for me, so I feel your pain!
 
Don't leave the game because of this fight! Especially as it's about to get fixed (not nerfed imo, fixed) in the latest patch. At least try it after that (and take a cc break ;-)
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			I am just totally impressed this thread made it to two pages and none of the uber-leets have popped in and made a Hello Kitty Island Adventure reference.  :lol:  ;)	
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Unfortunately, this isn't true for the Redmoon encounter . . .
 
No amount of teamwork will save you from the one-shot.
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Noob, get back to Hello Kitty Adventure with the rest of the easy mode peons.
 
For the benefit of Tex....
 
Back to the topic at hand....
 
I know a few people who don't like the raids or dungeons here. Challenging games aren't for everyone. I don't do end game group content myself, mainly because i'm completely burnt out on it in other MMO's and can't face the thought of raiding again ... ever. I just don't enjoy it, never had, only did it for the gear which was the wrong mind set to start with but raiding/dungeons have never been my thing. The problem I had was being good at it so my guild/free company liked to take me. I do admit, there was a time I was an awesome healer.
 
I digress.
 
Not everyone does end game. If that isn't your thing then there are a few other things you could possibly try but all is not lost if you do decide to move on. There are, literarily, thousands of MMO's on the market. It doesn't need to be an MMO, try something else. Witcher 3 and Fallout 4 are fantastic games with tons of hours of content. Point is, there is always something you can do. Not raiding or doing dungeons here isn't a problem. 
 
Housing alone has kept me busy for a large chunk of my play time and i've still got a lot I want to do.	
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Just practice is all,  and you will get the hang of it.  I ve been where you hve been,  and every vet dungeon I do I ask my self why do I put my self through this nerve wracking pain. lol.  I ve had elites calling me dumb, when I ve had some bad luck in dungeons.  I just laugh, I think you hve to if you pug a lot. And don't take insults personally. Still I would prefer 6 vet dungeons that are interesting, over a swath of dungeons that are lame.
 
A parting from all that I enjoy the wildstar dungeons immensely  	
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Hello kitty is hard as balls.
 	
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I am just totally impressed this thread made it to two pages and none of the uber-leets have popped in and made a Hello Kitty Island Adventure reference.  :lol:  ;)
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An fact is:  at fresh 50 you need your dungeon points. Then equip your self with dungeon gear from the vendors at thayd or Illum. ilvl 7x..
NOT pvp stuff.
Then if you are in vets , like you are, just get the better points and buy the ultimative gear set for dungeons or there even are some vendors for raid- or adventure- equip.
 
This is no fact of being fast enough. It is just the itemlvl which is weakening you.
 
If you let out the vendor steps then you feel pretty useless at the most of the time.
 
ps.: there are balanching patches incoming to. So dont give up.
 
And last but not least: for  not dungeon runners there are plenty of crafting- or questing - or open raid- options.
Also fame stuff.
			
				
	Edited November 11, 2015 by Bladeofhonour	
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did you research any of the fights beforehand?  watch videos and/or read guides?
 
if you just show up and hope for an explanation, you're going to be extremely unsuccessful.	
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did you research any of the fights beforehand?  watch videos and/or read guides?
 
if you just show up and hope for an explanation, you're going to be extremely unsuccessful.
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MF'ng Tex turned into an UberLeet bringing up Hello Kitty into a constructive thread.
 
p/s: When are you gonna start running vet dungeon? ;)
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Yea, same problem here OP, playing games my entire life, being bored by every game in existence because games in the last 10 years have become so stupidly easy... and even though i must be a gaming god, because i seem to be the only person in the world, who thinks that ALL games are too easy... i am still not good enough for this game.
 
Guess you need 60+ years of gaming experience to be able to survive in this endgame content.
It's just plain dumb how difficult the game is. Has nothing to do with fun. The only fun things in the game, are ruined by the fact that they give no rewards, and everyone just farms them alone once per day max... The expeditions...
 
Edit: and ofc Dungeon or Adventure runs, where you don't happen do get complete scrubs, but instead, people that carry you, can actually be fun. But you have to leave like 20-40 people behind until you find a group that is at least decent. Kinda stupid that you have to do everthing with Guilds... Guilds are so annoying and boring... i think in my entire life, i only had ONE person in a guild, that i could actually stand... Everything else was usually "We are raiding at twenty hundred exactly!" type of people with sticks up their butts... He was the only guild leader i ever met who managed to... well, have no stupid rules or plans, and yet managed to make it into a server top guild. But i have to say, that there was the huge advantage, that you could just leave people behind in that game, and you could still bring them rewards from the dungeon. No BoP or BoE at all... WAY more freedom... Missed the important raid? Who cares? Your reward is already waiting in the guild bank anyways... XD
			
				
	Edited November 11, 2015 by 4797849658794	
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This is the one thing im not really looking forward to at end game.  I have done dungeons in other games but nothing serious as I normally do PVP but because ive burnt myself out in other games doing PVP I haven't even touched it in Wildstar. 
 
When it comes to dungeons I would probably class myself as average and normally I play a tank role.  But this is where im not looking forward to it....I enjoy Stalker.....its by far my fav class but from what ive heard it is not the best tank class to play and is challenging. So when you combine average player which will make life hard as it is in dungeons and challenging to play the role I normally play then I don't envision alot of success happening.  I could play DPS like im doing whilst leveling up but doing dungeons as a DPS'r is new grounds and if the dungeons are as hard as people say they are then im more than likely going to get booted more times than anything. 
 
But on the plus side ive never been one to always want the best of the best in gear as I play to just have fun. So if I can get away with just doing other content like adventures etc and leaving vet dungeons to those who are good at it then im happy just doing that. Worst case scenario I shall sit on my housing plot in a rocking chair holding a shotgun and scaring away intruders   :P
			
				
	Edited November 11, 2015 by Scarran	
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Everything else was usually "We are raiding at twenty hundred exactly!" type of people with sticks up their butts...
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This is the one thing im not really looking forward to at end game.  I have done dungeons in other games but nothing serious as I normally do PVP but because ive burnt myself out in other games doing PVP I haven't even touched it in Wildstar. 
 
When it comes to dungeons I would probably class myself as average and normally I play a tank role.  But this is where im not looking forward to it....I enjoy Stalker.....its by far my fav class but from what ive heard it is not the best tank class to play and is challenging. So when you combine average player which will make life hard as it is in dungeons and challenging to play the role I normally play then I don't envision alot of success happening.  I could play DPS like im doing whilst leveling up but doing dungeons as a DPS'r is new grounds and if the dungeons are as hard as people say they are then im more than likely going to get booted more times than anything. 
 
But on the plus side ive never been one to always want the best of the best in gear as I play to just have fun. So if I can get away with just doing other content like adventures etc and leaving vet dungeons to those who are good at it then im happy just doing that. Worst case scenario I shall sit on my housing plot in a rocking chair holding a shotgun and scaring away intruders   :P
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			Struggling on the hardest content. Isn't that the point of the hardest content?	
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Stalker tank is fine for dungeons. Really, it's fine for raids too.
 
Take your time at max- do the expeditions for sure. Then if you can get the queues to pop adventures. When you get yourself to ilvl 70, try to find some players to queue up with and don't random- start with Stormtalon. Get it down, and then move on to Kel Voreth. Stormtalon is pretty short and great to tank. Really, the only difficult to tank encounter in the whole place is the last one (which isn't easy on any of the roles).
 
Some people like to dps first just to learn the zone. But if you love to tank, find a group that will run with you and give you a shot. Hit me up if you are exile/entity. If you use the group finder and want to tank, you may want to read a strat guide or watch a video (Moe Pork has some great ones).
 
If you don't mind wiping and don't give up easily, the content is very rewarding. And very repeatable.
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Thanks very much Jeff for the info. 
 
It's nice to know Stalker tank is at least viable, I have been checking out a few guides/youtube videos on dungeons and builds and what to aim for when I hit max level. But I might go down the dps route as you said so I can see the dungeons for myself as I find it will help more when im actually doing it rather than viewing someone else doing it. I don't mind wiping and learning the dungeons as I expect that and I will be honest I prefer content to be challenging rather than breezing through it, some of the most fun I have had is doing content that is really challenging. 
 
Right now im an Exile on Entity-2 but when the servers get merged together and if im still having trouble I might give you a shout if you don't mind.  Ive still got a little bit to go to max level as it is my first toon I like to take my time and take the early stuff in. I have read that the best approach when hitting max level initially is buying the pvp gear, is this still the case?
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Struggling on the hardest content. Isn't that the point of the hardest content?
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Background: I'm a lifelong gamer married 40s no kids...lots of time and a fair amount of disposable income to spend on gaming. I've been playing MMOs for over a decade, though I don't claim to be a veteran or even of above average skill I have participated successfully in many MMO endgame activities (from raiding to group dailies and everything in between).
 
Opinion: WildStar is a beautiful game, I love the graphics, I love the lore, I freaking adore the character models and I really enjoyed the challenge of leveling as it required a lot more attention than in other games. Got to 50, found a great raiding guild to give me some guidance since I knew entering endgame would be more difficult than in other games I've played. They showed me the ropes, helped me gear up and got me attuned, they even brought me along for the first boss in GA that very same day to unlock the raid gear vendor for me and help me further gear up. My ilvl being 84 and fully runed they encourage me to start queueing for vet dungeons for more practice, glory, gear and runes...fair enough. I found the vet dungeons teeth gnashingly hard but I struggled through for as long as the groups would have me, usually bowing out after my death would wipe them on a boss the third or fourth time. After three separate 2 hour attempts on the last boss of Skullcano with three different groups, including a guildie group, I'm left with the realization I simply don't possess the hand/eye coordination or reflexes to participate in WildStar's endgame. I'm not crying or ranting, this is a simple realization of the limits of my playing ability. However, if a fairly average player like myself who is no noob when it comes to games of this sort can't hack it, I fear for the future of this game given who it's publisher is.
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gryph im not sure what the point of this thread is?
games like WOW with LFR​ exist for people unable to keep up with difficult content who want to feel like they aren't excluded... making the game more forgiving is essentially removing content out of the game for everyone else... what do you do when you finally down the raid and have every piece of gear from it? beat it again(even easier now?) players complain about lack of end game content in every single mmo since WoW had created the illusion of content by gear gating everyone with weekly lockouts... but in general what do you do when you've beat the hardest PvE in a game? wait for them to give you something else?so do you propose they make all content more forgiving for the ones who cant do it - but also removing the challenge from anyone trying to beat the current material? then everyone will clear raids the first lockout and within a few weeks they'll get all their drops and wait for the next ez raid? I'm not seeing a proposal which doesn't involve destroying the game for everyone who already enjoys it... while there are PLENTY of titles out there that are more suited to casual pve... you act like you don't want the game to be changed for you but if that's the case then is this an attention grabbing goodbye thread? only 2 reasons to post the thread from what I can make out...games(including the ones you listed) all had very exclusive content... wether it was your guild camping a boss spawn or clearing 40 man w/e​​ - it all had exclusivity... that's something that DRIVES people to improve... to conquer something most people can't... don't you think your life would have been boring if you hit 18 and they asked you to pick out the make and model of your wife, and what you wanted in your house and then you just never had to work for anything you had? when I got attuned for the raid I had a BLAST even though a few bosses were really hard on the group... but in general I had beat those and got bored of them almost immediately... the only thing that was keeping me awake was trying to crank the dps meter as hard as I could to make up for the actual encounters being easy... and I think they dumbed down raid attunement since launch... SSM was a real cupcake	
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Again, I appreciate all the feedback and discussion, it's obvious people are passionate about this game and that's a really great thing. I'd like to be clear, I really didn't expect any responses at all, this is simply my opinion of my playing experience as it relates to me. I thought forums were the place to express such opinions and have these discussions, hopefully as politely as possible.
I'll admit to a slight bias against WildStar's publisher as I'd still be playing CoH/V right now if they hadn't shut it down, but I meant everything in my OP as simply as its stated. 
The goal in any game is to have fun, no matter how the individual defines it. I hope everyone who posted here continues to find their fun!
			
				
	Edited November 11, 2015 by Gryphonfox	
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Background: I'm a lifelong gamer married 40s no kids...lots of time and a fair amount of disposable income to spend on gaming. I've been playing MMOs for over a decade, though I don't claim to be a veteran or even of above average skill I have participated successfully in many MMO endgame activities (from raiding to group dailies and everything in between).
 
Opinion: WildStar is a beautiful game, I love the graphics, I love the lore, I freaking adore the character models and I really enjoyed the challenge of leveling as it required a lot more attention than in other games. Got to 50, found a great raiding guild to give me some guidance since I knew entering endgame would be more difficult than in other games I've played. They showed me the ropes, helped me gear up and got me attuned, they even brought me along for the first boss in GA that very same day to unlock the raid gear vendor for me and help me further gear up. My ilvl being 84 and fully runed they encourage me to start queueing for vet dungeons for more practice, glory, gear and runes...fair enough. I found the vet dungeons teeth gnashingly hard but I struggled through for as long as the groups would have me, usually bowing out after my death would wipe them on a boss the third or fourth time. After three separate 2 hour attempts on the last boss of Skullcano with three different groups, including a guildie group, I'm left with the realization I simply don't possess the hand/eye coordination or reflexes to participate in WildStar's endgame. I'm not crying or ranting, this is a simple realization of the limits of my playing ability. However, if a fairly average player like myself who is no noob when it comes to games of this sort can't hack it, I fear for the future of this game given who it's publisher is.
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Thanks very much Jeff for the info. 
 
It's nice to know Stalker tank is at least viable, I have been checking out a few guides/youtube videos on dungeons and builds and what to aim for when I hit max level. But I might go down the dps route as you said so I can see the dungeons for myself as I find it will help more when im actually doing it rather than viewing someone else doing it. I don't mind wiping and learning the dungeons as I expect that and I will be honest I prefer content to be challenging rather than breezing through it, some of the most fun I have had is doing content that is really challenging. 
 
Right now im an Exile on Entity-2 but when the servers get merged together and if im still having trouble I might give you a shout if you don't mind.  Ive still got a little bit to go to max level as it is my first toon I like to take my time and take the early stuff in. I have read that the best approach when hitting max level initially is buying the pvp gear, is this still the case?
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Like some other people have said, what I've been hearing about the difficulty is exactly why I'm so hyped and excited for the endgame content in Wildstar. I've never been a huge MMO player, but the few I have tried in the past left me kind of bored through leveling where I honestly didn't even really make it to much endgame. For me, even Wildstar's leveling feels a bit more engaging just because the combat feels so fun to me. I of course have also been loving the lore, characters, DIALOGUE ESPECIALLY, etc. 
 
I thankfully have a couple good friends who can help me with the learning curve as they've gotten rather good and have already been at max level for a little while now. 
 
I am prepared to fail a megaton, but I feel that's okay. I really, really don't want to see this game get easier. I'm happy where it is and as I play the game more and learn, it'll feel SO satisfying to beat the content. I feel like not enough games today just don't give you that "HELL YES I DID IT" feeling. I already feel a little overwhelmed, but at the same time, I'm loving every second of it.	
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The thing is, even if you are good at the game, there often is just... nothing you can do...
I used to be able to heal people in certain situations, where now it's more like... "you make ONE mistake, and nobody can save you".
I tried being good, i tried beating the hard content, but apparently i am not allowed to... you know.. put out a bit more heal, to heal a noob that just got hit by something bad...
If you have no elite guild that is always there for you... this is just massively disappointing...	
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I though WS raids are hardest content considering vet dungeons serve as gear stepping stone to raids.
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helped me gear up and got me attuned, they even brought me along for the first boss in GA that very same day to unlock the raid gear vendor for me and help me further gear up. My ilvl being 84 and fully runed they encourage me to start queueing for vet dungeons for more practice   but I struggled through for as long as the groups would have me, usually bowing out after my death would wipe them on a boss the third or fourth time. After three separate 2 hour attempts on the last boss of Skullcano with three different groups, including a guildie group, I'm left with the realization I simply don't possess the hand/eye coordination or reflexes to participate in WildStar's endgame. I'm not crying or ranting, this is a simple realization of the limits of my playing ability. However, if a fairly average player like myself who is no noob when it comes to games of this sort can't hack it, I fear for the future of this game given who it's publisher is.
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I want to adress this post and the post by Mr.Numbes Guy.
 
I came to wildstar because, like you, i found the other MMO i was playing (neverwinter) mind numbingly easy.  I was soloing endgame, 5-man content AND it became very pay to win, so I left a lot of my friends behind and came here.
 
I haven't played enough of other MMOs out there, but it's my impression that Wildstar has some of the most difficult content out there.  I obviously could be wrong - but the point is, that's why I play wildstar.  While other people are crying that the game is too hard, i'm actually feeling that datascape feels a bit too easy on progression, but that's just me.  We haven't pulled the harder pairs so I could be up for months of wiping to water logic...
 
That said, when i started I was just like you.  I died often in dungeons.  I would die at mordechai EVERY time, over and over and over again.  I hated the fact i wasn't playing well.
 
But so what?  Maybe you aren't good at wildstar yet!  and maybe that's fine!
 
You _CAN_ improve.  People who started off less-than-wonderful can really improve and become good.  We had a friend of mine join us in datascape last night, and for a while, I thought she was bad too.  She died all the time.  Her damage was half of what it should be, etc...
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Great post, and I agree with it, but want to focus on that point you made. I think part of the issue is, for many, is that after a while it becomes less of a feeling of "I CAN DO THIS!" and more "When will it end so I can move on?" and for many more it turns into "I've been trying for weeks and nothing...I give up." At that third point, there's not much for them to do in the game since Wildstar's endgame doesn't have a lot going on after you've been at 50 for a while (I've been at 50 for a long time and run the same content so much I could do it in my sleep probably at this point).
 
While many can improve and do better, it's a matter of if they feel the reward is worth it or not vs the time they put in. Yes, you'll better gear and then be facing possibly months of slogging for GA/DS. Not exactly a rosey prospect for many. So, because this is a growing issue, perhaps it should be addressed. I mean, it's not like the middle content won't be enjoyed by those raiding.
 
Don't think they should tone down the content at all though, even if I know it's likely not for me right now. Should they add something in between? Maybe...but not sure what or how they'd do it with all of the other issues they're trying to fix but something should be done so people don't just burn out and quit.
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My highest level so far is 35, so got a bit to do yet.
 
Not done one dungeon because like OP, I'm fully aware that I am awful. I would like to do them but I know I don't have the capacity when it comes to mmo's to really be able to grasp everything. I know vaguely what stats I'm looking for on items I pick as quest rewards, and I do have a rotation that seems to work for me in most cases (I'm a spellslinger, so not really that hard).
 
When it comes to dungeons I'd be lost though, I'd have no idea how to properly rune my items, I'd know the tactics because I'm meticulous about knowing what's happening, what's coming up etc, but I'd still die so many times. That's why I don't play PVP or duel.
 
I know that on my best day I'm still no match for an average player on their worst day.
 
I'm happy enough just plodding along, getting my house looking vaguely presentable.. :)	
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My highest level so far is 35, so got a bit to do yet.
 
Not done one dungeon because like OP, I'm fully aware that I am awful. I would like to do them but I know I don't have the capacity when it comes to mmo's to really be able to grasp everything. I know vaguely what stats I'm looking for on items I pick as quest rewards, and I do have a rotation that seems to work for me in most cases (I'm a spellslinger, so not really that hard).
 
When it comes to dungeons I'd be lost though, I'd have no idea how to properly rune my items, I'd know the tactics because I'm meticulous about knowing what's happening, what's coming up etc, but I'd still die so many times. That's why I don't play PVP or duel.
 
I know that on my best day I'm still no match for an average player on their worst day.
 
I'm happy enough just plodding along, getting my house looking vaguely presentable.. :)
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I've given up to read everything at the second page, but if you are still reading, here are my two cents.
 
I think WS is more about the player personality than the actual skill level he/she has at the moment.
 
How to beat a boss: don't give up! Find new ways, think a few minutes about the situation. Let me explain on Mordechai which is one of my favourite bosses (SD being another :).
 
This boss is indeed hard at first, but as you start to understand what and how he does he is actually rather easy to kill.
 
This fight is not about DPS, it is about time management.
 
First thing to remember: bring 1) movement skill, 2) self-clense 3) interrupt 4) CC break with you.
 
So, number one death cause: the lasers. What I do is that when the big lasers are about to come I go almost to the wall, about the middle between them. You cannot run along the wall, lasers will catch up, but being at the wall will give you a lot of time to decide which way to go and it will give you a lot of space to move. And it will give you sight of both lasers at the same time. (For me this helps immensely to recognize the direction.)
 
When the lasers start to move and I see the direction I aim to a non-puddled area and use my movement skill to catch up with the big laser going away from me. The use of the movement skill gives me the time to run to the middle, the position at the wall gives me time to decide and they together give me the time to pick a puddle-less area.
 
Some movement skills actually can go though the big lasers, you have to test which ones, pounce does for sure.
 
When I reached the middle I just run around, jumping over the puddles and lasers. When they are together I usully time the jumps to cover both.
 
If I manage to get caught by a puddle I use my CC break to get out.
 
If I get caught by a small laser I use cleanse to remove the dot and the slow down debuff.
 
Second death cause: the guns. You can see if they are aimed at you and if you are not close you can dodge the bullet. Best is to ask the tank to move the boss away.
 
Third: big bomb or whatever the name of the ability is: interrupt boss or if you are the one knocked down you can use the CC break to get away.
 
And the last one: the big-big aoe during the third phase. There are two ways to deal with that. The simple way is to run away. It works really well. :D I do not mean dodge it, but actually running a hell away, wait till the boss finishes it and then continue. Noone gets damage if you all run away. Other possibility is to move with the aoe, a bit harder but doable.
 
Ask your tank to move the boss to the wall, face it so that all dps and heal are looking at the wall. This means that you won't be easily blinded and the tank can take it anyway (or use cleanse to remove the blind).
 
As you see, there are really a _LOT_ of things that may make this fight easy if you give yourself time to figure them out. This goes for most of WS.
 
I'm 38 and my reflexes not as good as in the old times but I have no real problems with reaction time. (Sillines, yes :D).
 
And as for death of one player means wipe in a raid, that's simply not true. I'm a DS raider myself and a group can easily cover for one player (of course, it is harder during progress and there are unforgiving fights, but we've managed miracles. :) )
 
EDIT: I'm happy to help out any groups on Jabbit who's struggling with a boss, just drop me a whisp. (Can play any roles, names in signature.)
			
				
	Edited November 12, 2015 by Deeaab	
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I also have a circle set up for learning dungeons where people expect to wipe and learn, so that's another tool available if you'd like.
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That's a really good idea. I see you are on Entity, any circles like that on Jabbit?
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Suicide Circle, anyone?  :ph34r:
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I just put together some information based on WildstarLogs execution rankings. This shows the guild's best parse for avoiding deaths and damage. The parse with the fewest deaths is always favored.
 
Here are 'Immortal' stats for each DS boss that is captured by WSL. This shows how many guilds have managed to kill that boss without deaths to date since F2P:
SD:          17 out of 53 kills
Gloom:       28 out of 39 kills
MA:          23 out of 43 kills
Earth/Air:   3  out of 29 kills
Earth/Fire:  7  out of 32 kills
Earth/Logic: 6  out of 36 kills
Water/Air:   (first time up since F2P, will see stats at the end of the week)
Water/Fire:  1  out of 21 kills
Water/Logic: 12 out of 23 kills
Life/Air:    4  out of 21 kills
Life/Fire:   5  out of 27 kills
Life/Logic:  (hasn't yet been seen)
The notion that "... in DS one person's death will wipe the raid on pretty much every boss ..." is a gross misrepresentation of raiding in Wildstar.
 
Don't get me wrong -- there is a strong emphasis on mechanical execution and staying alive. However, you do not need everyone alive to get kills.
 
Wildstar is kind of like the Mega-Man of MMOs. You will burn through a lot of pulls quickly during progression, and are aiming for a pull with clean enough execution that nets you the kill. I do wish they'd embrace the concept more (instant food buffs, closer graveyards, pot/cd/proc resets on death, buffs that persist through death, let raid leads instant reset fights, etc.). Shorter encounters and faster time to reset/pull pairs very well with challenging content.	
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Thanks so much for the feedback! I'd like to encourage you to keep trying though! There's so much this game has to offer, and I'd like to encourage you with a couple of anecdotes. 
 
From a personal standpoint, when I started playing, I came from tab-target games like WoW almost exclusively. The game was really, really hard to me. Practice makes perfect though. It took me 2 months of basically 4-5 hours of continual dungeon and adventure runs every afternoon to get to the point where I wasn't wiping people in dungeons especially on harder bosses like Rayna, Shallos, Mordecai, Drokk, Forgemaster, and Aetheros. My reaction time was slow and I hadn't gotten the hang of the positional desync that can happen in this game. A year a few months later, I've improved signficantly, just by playing with friends. My advice is to take it slow. So you're not ready to jump into raiding just yet. If your guild will let you stay on as a casual member, by all means do so, especially if you love the game. Play the adventures, dungeons, and run GA with your guildies. You'll get experience and your reaction time will improve because you will learn to anticipate instead of react. 
 
We had 1 guildie who took 6 months of skullcano to make it through mordecai w/o dying. 
We had 1 guildie who used to die on nearly every pull, but he stuck with the game and improved a lot! Now he's one of our better raiders. 
 
Don't get discouraged. If you enjoy the game, stick with it. Do dungeons with your guild or join a dungeon circle to do learning dungeons with new players. Practice will get you there eventually. Your reaction time and reflexes will get better. You will learn to anticipate and pre-emptively move. You have the right attitude to make it happen. 
			
				
	Edited November 12, 2015 by MedicMelawen	
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The only thing i found difficult in wildstar was  the telegraph system, never played a game with it so i had to get used it
 
Skullcano final boss is an rng boss, his lazer wall may spawn right on top of you, the red dots can fall anywhere and the problem is you can't circle around however you like to avoid bad stuff, the lazer wall moves too fast for you to take it easy 
Never been in a dungeon where all 5 stay alive for that boss its mostly just one deeps, one tank and one heals that makes it till the end lol
Meanwhile some of the raid bosses feel likes a joke compared to this guy XD	
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Skullcano final boss is an rng boss
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It's a no win situation...make the end easy and obtainable for the average player, or keep it the way it is! The end result will just be the same if your in that mindset.
What the game needs and is slowly getting, more and more casual content, they need to keep building on events, contracts, world bosses while still keeping the edge on the end game.
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			I highly suggest the quick feet rune for Skullcano. It really helps on the laser phase to run around so you don't have to hug the center.	
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This is a false dichotomy. Many games can and do provide the same range of options for people at different skill levels by simply providing the content at more than one difficulty level. They do so because they want to make the game accessible for the average player and still provide the challenge for the exceptional player. It makes more efficient use of the game's assets than making completely different content for different levels of challenge, provides the same range of content options to a much wider range of the game's population.
 
This game has deliberately chosen not to do that, and it's been paying the price for it ever since. 
 
I can understand wanting to not force the challenge-oriented players into the easier versions of content, or spoil the sense of reward that comes with getting to see what's there first because you're the best there is. There are several ways to do that, the most obvious one being to release the more challenging version first and keep the less challenging version locked for a drop or two, or until some threshold of players completes the more challenging version--whichever comes first. The game should always provide greater rewards for the more challenging version of the content and never require the easier version to unlock the more challenging version, to stick with risk vs. reward and incentivize players looking to improve even after the easier version is available.
 
But the reality is that the OP is entirely correct. The endgame here is simply overtuned for the average member of the MMORPG playerbase. This game isn't going to survive if the prevailing response to the average player is "L2P and git gud", no matter how tactfully it is worded. So in the end, the question that this game's elite players--and the developers who design content for them--need to grapple with is whether a game that has super-challenging content but also has easier versions of the same content is better than no game at all.
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			Lots to do besides raids and such. Like others have said don't play the game the same as other expect you too. Its your game play how you like to enjoy it.	
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the devs could say something if that is the thinking here too.
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game isnt difficult, you just dont currently possess the skillset required to survive. Eventually you will gain said skillset, but it wont be without alot of experience trying. the game is extremely reactionary, meaning you either need to know what is about to happen and be extremely prepared for it or you need to be able to respond in a very small amount of time to multiple different possible changes.
 
The majority of people that do end game went through what you are currently going through now. You can do it! you just need to not give up and break down each failure and find out where you went wrong and adjust your gameplay.
 
In the end being able to overcome these difficult encounters become a bigger reward than the actual loot you get.
			
				
	Edited November 13, 2015 by Techr	
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