124689-wildstar-has-been-p2w-since-launch-yet-the-sky-has-not-fallen-page-2

Page 1, Page 2
== Content ==
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
{| class="blockquote"
there is a limit of 1 CREDD purchase per 24 hours
----
			
Wildstar is not a pay to win game.
 
It's a game where people pay for raiders to win.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Wildstar is not a pay to win game.
 
It's a game where people pay for raiders to win.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I have never heard the definition of P2W be "players must pay to win" that's just, well, stupid.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I have never heard the definition of P2W be "players must pay to win" that's just, well, stupid.
----
			
P2W would be:
 
$x for ability points
$y for amp points
$z for full ability/amp points
$n for pink weapon
 
P2W would not be:
 
buy a game-time token that's trade-able for in game currency, in a community controlled economy that has a very, very limited supply of BoE items	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The definition of pay to win isn't pay to win... 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
i personally think the CREDD price is being controlled a bit more than people would assume, but am not about to open that can of worms.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
P2W would be:
 
$x for ability points
$y for amp points
$z for full ability/amp points
$n for pink weapon
 
P2W would not be:
 
buy a game-time token that's trade-able for in game currency, in a community controlled economy that has a very, very limited supply of BoE items
 
Please explain your tin-foil of how carbine and/or the illuminati controls the price of credd, i'd love to hear it
----
			
....this ....is the best thread EVER!
 
it has just the right level of seriousness and troll to make a 20 page discussion that goes absolutely no where and only makes people yell at one another. it is genius.+1 op. to witness this unfold is a blessing to all those who enjoy comedy and the entertainment industry. well done. i have nothing else to say.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
....this ....is the best thread EVER!
 
it has just the right level of seriousness and troll to make a 20 page discussion that goes absolutely no where and only makes people yell at one another. it is genius.
 
+1 op. to witness this unfold is a blessing to all those who enjoy comedy and the entertainment industry. well done. i have nothing else to say.
----
			
P2W would be buying an artifact weapon, or some other weapon not readily available to the upper level of content, not an ilvl 74 weapon.
P2W would be buying a boost that increases your pvp damage by x% for y hours.
 
You would generally define Pay 2 Win as being able to trade real world currency for exclusive items / boosts / tools that otherwise wouldn't be available to the playerbase in-game.
 
The CREDD model isn't really that special, it's just a regulated version of something that happens often in MMOs-- and that's RMT for in-game currency. Whether it's chinaman or "that one guy in your guild who plays the market 24/7," you're basically paying your preferred choice of currency for someone else's gametime.  That's a very big difference from trading your currency to have a weapon stronger than the strongest guy, being tougher in PvP, or having increased gold / item drops relative to other people.
 
P2W games are games like Silkroad Online, or Clash of Clans. Clash of Clans, for instance, allows you to pay money to instantly train your troops, or instantly upgrade your defenses.  This gives you a significant edge over someone who would otherwise be getting stomped, unless he also paid money to win. 	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
P2W would be buying an artifact weapon, or some other weapon not readily available to the upper level of content, not an ilvl 74 weapon.
P2W would be buying a boost that increases your pvp damage by x% for y hours.
 
You would generally define Pay 2 Win as being able to trade real world currency for exclusive items / boosts / tools that otherwise wouldn't be available to the playerbase in-game.
 
The CREDD model isn't really that special, it's just a regulated version of something that happens often in MMOs-- and that's RMT for in-game currency. Whether it's chinaman or "that one guy in your guild who plays the market 24/7," you're basically paying your preferred choice of currency for someone else's gametime.  That's a very big difference from trading your currency to have a weapon stronger than the strongest guy, being tougher in PvP, or having increased gold / item drops relative to other people.
 
P2W games are games like Silkroad Online, or Clash of Clans. Clash of Clans, for instance, allows you to pay money to instantly train your troops, or instantly upgrade your defenses.  This gives you a significant edge over someone who would otherwise be getting stomped, unless he also paid money to win. 
----
			
First of all WS do not deliver nearly enough grind for good MMO (now you can start burning me).
 
Second P2W usually refers to constant advantage one player can have over another. I don't see that in WS. Sure you can have few things faster, but you can not speed up most of them and above all your advantage would be only temporary. 
 
Third grinding gold in WS is so easy, that only real advantage of CREED is not having to play to have gold for normal in-game stuff (potions etc.) and to be fair only "expensive" thing in game is running new item (something that is not happening every day).
 
Fourth having CREEDs in fact is affecting in-game price structure (and this is a strong impact). Some items like rare dyes or unlocks are probably few times more expensive, than they would have been without CREEDs. But it would be unfair to say CREEDs are only responsible for higher prices. In fact many items are just cheaper because of them. Every time you are using potion it is cheaper because of CREED system. Why? Well having CREEDs is having more players and most of the players, that will spent plat on CREEDs will farm something to sell on CX, so...
 
Fifth in any MM you can this or other way buy gold and there is absolutely no exception, unless that MMO does not have gold/currency.
 
My point is that nothing is black and white. You may think WS is P2W, but for me it would be misconception of that. Or maybe you haven't seen real P2W. Another misconception is that F2P or game with cash shop is always P2W. The true is that P2P can be more P2W and it all depends on publishers "attitude".	
----
			
Just gonna mention that anyone who thinks there aren't people who wouldn't drop a few thousand to get geared out, don't really know just how expensive gold buying, legendary buying and item buying really are. Guild Wars 2 legendaries used to go for thousands of dollars, though right now they're in the 200-400$ range and they offer no real power over regular weapons. Buying gold from gold sellers used to be like $160 for 400 gold. People will sink money into buying stuff, a lot of it.
 
Personally, I myself have sunk THOUSANDS into SW:TOR with cartel coin purchases. I lost count, but I've already spent over $2000 easy since the beta of SW:TOR (including 3 year sub + $150 box price though so take out $690) but I've spent the rest on Cartel coins and I've definitely passed the $2K mark as I've hit the cap on how many you can buy (they stop you after a while) multiple times. Even in GW2 I've hit the cap of how many gems one can buy, so I know I've passed the $1K on that game as well, if not $2K. I have a guildie who we had to intervene as he spent $7K in ONE MONTH on cartel coins as he was addicted (we got him to quit, get some help and now he doesn't play any game that has any sort of shop in it). Now cartel coins for those who never played SWTOR can be used to buy packs to gamble on which have rare items which you then can sell for credits to buy w/e you want. You still can't get the end game gear from the AH, but can use it to pay people to carry you for said gear. Hell, even when I stopped playing Wildstar I never dropped my sub. I haven't dropped my sub for SWTOR since the day it started, even if I was playing the game. I'm subbed to WoW, WS and SWTOR and I only really play WS now....Should probably drop that WoW sub though, can't stand that game.
 
People with money will spend it if they want, even if it's cosmetic and definitely if there is a way to get a power boost. Carry on. was only here to state this. 	
----
			
There are 2 videos
http://www.wildstar-online.com/uk/game/service/credd/
 
Also, how can you win if you can't interrupt and always die in telegraphs?	
----
			
Credd isn't pay to win.
 
For you to be able to make a "pay to win" you'd have to amass credd every day (bearing in mind it has a 22hr cooldown before you can purchase again) and sell it for a relatively similar price every day until you have enough to buy something that would give you an advantage over the average player.
 
"Oh look! Something on the ah I want, I can pay to win it! It will only take me 20 days of buying credd taking into account the 22 hour cooldown on the CREDD purchase!!!!"
 
CREDD was implemented to give people a way to buy gold through official terms, and people in game to buy subscription for in game currency.
 
You can't pay to skip content in this game, you can't pay to get free shiny armour, you can't pay to get rating in pvp, you can't pay to get all of the mounts... it's just so silly an argument I can't even
 
This is so tin foil, I'd need a whole roll to make a set of armour.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
 
Have you ever wondered why Logic slots are universally bad? If your first slot in your i74 DS drop gear is Logic, you can be damn sure that most raiders would spend 3 P just to get another random slot instead. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
No, it's not.
----
			Hello am 37 old man from somalia. Sorry for my bad england. I pay man of primarily asian descent for gold in WoW. I than buy all the BoE gears for become goodest player like fraya. But friends get angry. They dont like i buy the gold and leave. I now sad great player but I win most all of WoW. Dont make wildstar like WoW mistake. pls no copy pasterino my story.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 :(
 
Please send help, I had thought we would be brainstorming different non-intrusive cash shop models by now, but I have now spent more than 4 full hours just explaining why WS has always been P2W...
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Again, I'm not saying I dislike the way it is nor that it should change, only that we recognize it for what it is. Right now, people can spend $ and get serious in-game power for it. That's P2W, end of story.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
:(
 
Please send help, I had thought we would be brainstorming different non-intrusive cash shop models by now, but I have now spent more than 4 full hours just explaining why WS has always been P2W...
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I have never heard the definition of P2W be "players must pay to win" that's just, well, stupid.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I've never ready such bullshit in my life.
 
That doesn't mean you win anything. I can also spend money and get things that are completely inconsequential.
 
If you think this model is pay to win, then every game is pay to win, so you might as well stop playing and bitching about it. And the massive aggressive "not saying I dislike it" also can stop. Just knock it off.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 :(
 
Please send help, I had thought we would be brainstorming different non-intrusive cash shop models by now, but I have now spent more than 4 full hours just explaining why WS has always been P2W...
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
He's not bitching about it, angry Einstein. He's saying that the developers can use what's already there to find new sources of revenue and people won't freak out.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
There's nothing to discuss. It's a remedial task, one the developers are certainly already more familiar with than "Hydal".
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I'm just imagining you getting red and huffing and puffing at your computer right now. This topic really set you off! Damn that "Hydal!" Who does "he" think he "is?"
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
That's the baseline definition of P2W. I don't think anyone would disagree that that's clearly P2W.
 
Some people extend that the definition of P2W to "if you can gain an advantage over other players by spending money". For example, being able to purchase rare crafting mats off the cash shop would be considered P2W by some - even if the mats are available in game. If that would be P2W, however, CREDD would also be P2W as it would give those who pay money an advantage by allowing them to afford the materials faster than someone who was just playing the game and not paying extra.
----
			
P2W would mean you can buy you an advantige over other people, but that not possible in Wildstar, because there are no items you cant get by playing the game.
 
You say you can buy the 1400 weapons for plat yes, but everyone can do it. ( they cost 30 p) You can farm that amount in 2 days without a problem.
 
You say ok but asia grinder have that too, not really because the sell exp boost gold boost etc and wildstar doesnt do that.
 
Greed is nice for people with less time and only the use it, if i have enough time i have so much p that i dont know what to buy next...
But if you want to buy 1 cosemtic item for 13 € ( Black Hole Dye or the white one cost about 35p) than do it, i just farm it and sell it to you :P	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 :(
 
Please send help, I had thought we would be brainstorming different non-intrusive cash shop models by now, but I have now spent more than 4 full hours just explaining why WS has always been P2W...
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
http://d3dsacqprgcsqh.cloudfront.net/photo/aD0pzBN_460sa_v1.gif
----
			Not P2W. You're trying too hard to make a point.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I think those people that extend P2W definition to that are just reaching for reasons why cash shops are bad.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I think you missed his point entirely. It was the exact opposite of "cash shops are bad". It was that there's no sane reason to object to a cash shop in Wildstar because every single thing in Wildstar that is BoE is already for sale for cash.
 
Almost the entirety of the game is a cash shop and--as noted in the title--"the sky has not fallen".
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yes but this was lost in the sauce when initial comments focused on P2W. After that this thread became a self-licking ice cream cone of what is and isn't P2W.
 
A better title would be "WildStar has had a cash shop since launch, yet the sky has not fallen."
 
I think at this point it'll take a new thread if we want to talk about that. This one has become infected by the Strain.
----
			Well yasfan....they might have to "Strain" themselves to see it.....what?...someone had to say it :P	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Well yasfan....they might have to "Strain" themselves to see it.....what?...someone had to say it :P
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I don't get this. There are items on the AH/CX right now that you can buy with cash. How can you say showing the $ price would change your behavior? 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
There's a pretty big difference between items put up for sale on a broker and items Carbine put up in a cash shop. The former just requires my in-game investment; the latter requires additional real life dollars. >_>
 
[edit] Justifying things being in a cash shop because they're BoE and can be sold on the AH is also a poor argument in my book. Such things are usually priced absurdly high (by the players, because they spent real money and want to get a lot of in-game money out of it) and there's not a lot of fun in just grinding out plat to buy a cash shop item. Also, I've seen the effects of "you can purchase it with in-game currency OR with our cash shop currency!" in another game I still play off and on - Rift. Housing items there used to be pretty affordable for low level players. Now most items cost 10+ plat, an impossible goal for the level 7 who got their first dimension. That kind of price change is Trion absolutely trying to force people into feeling like they need to spend real money. It's less of an issue at level cap, but why would you want to have to wait until level cap to start your dimension when you can get access to it at level 7 (or even level 1, depending on certain things)?
----
			
1) For the love of god, please move this thread to off-topic
 
2) so far, after reading the 10 pages we have about 2 different opinions
 
Hydal/other people argueing it is pay 2 win - game is P2W because I define P2W as any game where I can gain an advantage if I can in theory buy something with real money. I care not about the required scale of the expenditure or time.
 
Thats great Hydal, we get that in your definition, the game is Pay 2 Win. It it pay 2 win because you have chosen to accept a definition (however right or incorrect it may be) that defines wildstar, or any game with a way to convert real money to in game currency as pay to win. EVE is pay to win, WS is pay 2 win, now WoW is pay to win with their CREDD like system. Congratulations on defining something and then argueing with other people about it
 
Everyone else: Takes a different definition of pay to win. Mostly to do with I get better gear than everyone else if I pay money (which isn't the case here) or I can get better gear than what I have but i don't feel pressured to do it because you would have to buy an absurd amount of CREDD, etc...
 
Basically, you have different people with different opinions about the definitions of pay to win. Please stop trying to say that your opinion is gospel, for both parties, because ultimately how each individual defines pay 2 win themselves is what is important. Because there isn't a hard definition of pay 2 win, its how each individual perceives the game.
 
So maybe you are right Hydal, but it doesn't mean that everyone else is wrong.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Hydal/other people argueing it is pay 2 win - game is P2W because I define P2W as any game where I can gain an advantage if I can in theory buy something with real money. I care not about the required scale of the expenditure or time.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
There is the original, IMO, definition of P2W where you could buy something that would give you some advantage in game play (PvE, PvP, "looking cool" if it's just cosmetic) and that item was not available through any form of game play. This is the one everyone dispises.
 
Later, the P2W definition morphed to "you could buy something that provided you with a shortcut through part of the game", like XP boosts, pristine keys for instant attuenment, equipment that allows you to bypass early item grinds. Note that in this definition all of these things are available through game play of varying lengths and difficulty.
----
			
i think we are all going about this the wrong way.
 
hydal what is an mmo that is not pay to win?	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Has anyone experienced this in WS? No, which re-enforces the point that this game is not P2W . . .
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Actually, you're right. Nobody's experienced that gif in WS. But not for the reason you think.
 
Nobody's experienced that gif that you linked in WS because there are no free players. But if you replace the titles with "Didn't buy CREDD" and "Bought Tons Of CREDD", it's not so far off.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Actually, you're right. Nobody's experienced that gif in WS. But not for the reason you think.
 
Nobody's experienced that gif that you linked in WS because there are no free players. But if you replace the titles with "Didn't buy CREDD" and "Bought Tons Of CREDD", it's not so far off.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You can't be serious. The only time that someone is so ridiculously more powerful than someone else is NOT because of CREDD. It's because they worked their ass off with a group of 19 other people to get DS gear. Sure, there's a few outlier items that can be purchased with plat, but having one DS item is not going to make you suddenly a total badass that will dominate dungeons or PVP.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Actually, you're right. Nobody's experienced that gif in WS. But not for the reason you think.
 
Nobody's experienced that gif that you linked in WS because there are no free players. But if you replace the titles with "Didn't Play the Game" and "Played the game a lot", it's not so far off.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
What you call a "few outlier items" I call 19 separate types of DS BoE gear that have already been registered as drops on Jabbithole, including weapons for every class, shields, implants, weapon attachments, support systems, and head/chest/shoulder/hand/legs armor slots.
 
I agree with you that having just one of them will not suddenly make you dominate. But it certainly will give you an edge over an identical version of you that doesn't have one, won't it.
 
----
			
A few people, myself included, have responded to the OP by noting that the main point of it is fundamentally correct. There's really no reason to object to the idea of a cash shop, since most items in the game can actually be purchased with cash. It would be a big problem if there were items that were only available in the cash shop, and even more so if those items were also BoP so that they could only be obtained by purchasing them with cash, but neither of those issues are intrinsic to cash shops as a general concept. 
 
But among the people who are vociferously opposing the OP--and there's been a lot of them--something that really stands out to me. I think it's my favorite part of this thread because it's so completely unlike what I would have expected. It's really fascinating.
 
Consider how many people have opposed the OP by insisting that a game isn't P2W just because you can legitimately use cash to buy BoE DS gear that outperforms the stuff used by 99% of the playerbase.
Now consider how few people have opposed to the OP by insisting that Carbine ought to change that BoE gear to BoP gear since endgame gear is supposed to be content-gated.
 
Interesting, no? It's like avoiding the label is much more of a priority than fixing the issue that generates the label in the first place.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
A few people, myself included, have responded to the OP by noting that the main point of it is fundamentally correct. There's really no reason to object to the idea of a cash shop, since most items in the game can actually be purchased with cash. It would be a big problem if there were items that were only available in the cash shop, and even more so if those items were also BoP so that they could only be obtained by purchasing them with cash, but neither of those issues are intrinsic to cash shops as a general concept. 
 
But among the people who are vociferously opposing the OP--and there's been a lot of them--something that really stands out to me. I think it's my favorite part of this thread because it's so completely unlike what I would have expected. It's really fascinating.
 
Consider how many people have opposed the OP by insisting that a game isn't P2W just because you can legitimately use cash to buy BoE DS gear that outperforms the stuff used by 99% of the playerbase.
Now consider how few people have opposed to the OP by insisting that Carbine ought to change that BoE gear to BoP gear since endgame gear is supposed to be content-gated.
 
Interesting, no? It's like avoiding the label is much more of a priority than fixing the issue that generates the label in the first place.
----
			It's a game, one that doesn't need a cash shop or F2p crap.The theories in this thread.... moderator edit: content
			
				
	Edited April 14, 2015 by Chillia	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
A few people, myself included, have responded to the OP by noting that the main point of it is fundamentally correct. There's really no reason to object to the idea of a cash shop, since most items in the game can actually be purchased with cash. It would be a big problem if there were items that were only available in the cash shop, and even more so if those items were also BoP so that they could only be obtained by purchasing them with cash, but neither of those issues are intrinsic to cash shops as a general concept. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Consider how many people have opposed the OP by insisting that a game isn't P2W just because you can legitimately use cash to buy BoE DS gear that outperforms the stuff used by 99% of the playerbase.
Now consider how few people have opposed to the OP by insisting that Carbine ought to change that BoE gear to BoP gear since endgame gear is supposed to be content-gated.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Some of you are so dilusional....
It's a game, one that doesn't need a cash shop or F2p crap.
The theories in this thread....
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I asked this of someone earlier, what would be the point of introducing a cash shop if it basically already exists? Keeping in mind two drawbacks, that it would take resources (possibly not much) and that cash shops automatically, rational or not, cause bad vibes with some players.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I can think of one immediate advantage. CREDD is only sold in increments of twenty bucks. Presuming that the cash shop is actually convenient to access from inside the game--like the one in DCUO, for example, which doesn't require you to leave the game and connects to your on-file credit-card--it allows people who would prefer to make microtransactions to do so. There's a big difference in the psychology of spending 2 bucks and spending 20 bucks, unless making the purchase in the first place is a huge inconvenience.
 
To my mind the resources to make the interface are a one-time development cost, so in the long run they don't matter much.
Bad vibes from players have more to do with their immediate association of cash shops with exclusive cash shop-only items that force players to spend cash to obtain the items. If it's clear that a cash shop will not be implemented in that way then I'm having a hard time seeing a wave of ragequitting over it.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
For the record.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
And if we take your definition of pay to win, then literally every MMO that I know with a sub fee (EVE, WOW, WS, I don't know about FFXIV) is Pay 2 Win. You are expressing an opinion, which is totally cool, but just like I don't expect you to be swayed to how I think with some words, you also shouldn't expect me to agree with you just because you are making a hyperbolic point.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
And for what it's worth, Vince, I'm aware that you are one of the few who actually noted that you hoped it was a mistake. I do appreciate that. And I hope you're right.
 
But I'm not going to assume that it's a mistake until there's official statements saying otherwise. They're welcome to post an official confirmation that it's a mistake any time they want.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Bad vibes from players have more to do with their immediate association of cash shops with exclusive cash shop-only items that force players to spend cash to obtain the items. If it's clear that a cash shop will not be implemented in that way then I'm having a hard time seeing a wave of ragequitting over it.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
In SWTOR, people don't generally spend $20 on an item and then put them on the AH for absurd prices hoping to get a lot of in-game currency. For one, non-subscribers are currency capped, so if they put something on the AH for an absurdly high price, anything over the cap is going to go into escrow. Second, making money at level 60 is dead easy, especially if you have Slicing, so subscribers aren't going to spend real money to buy things from the cash shop just to sell on the AH.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
1) For the love of god, please move this thread to off-topic
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
i think we are all going about this the wrong way.
 
hydal what is an mmo that is not pay to win?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
People will spend real money to buy gamble boxes from the cash shop and then try to auction off things that they get but don't want, however. And gambleboxes are big business in SWTOR.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
FFXIV, and back when I used to play it, WoW (not saying it's p2w now, I just haven't played it and can't say).
 
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I knew people in RIft who were spending 100's and in some cases 1000's of dollars every time a new gambling box was released with some new shiny exclusive item or mount in it. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I guess I must really underestimate the power of a gambling addiction. With so much of the stuff from the Cartel Packs flooding the AH in SWTOR, and often for reasonable prices, I don't really see why someone would spend real money on the boxes. But if it's the thrill of chance that gets people to buy them, it's really unfortunate that people get sucked into that. :(
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I think you missed his point entirely. It was the exact opposite of "cash shops are bad". It was that there's no sane reason to object to a cash shop in Wildstar because every single thing in Wildstar that is BoE is already for sale for cash.
 
Almost the entirety of the game is a cash shop and--as noted in the title--"the sky has not fallen".
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
That's the baseline definition of P2W. I don't think anyone would disagree that that's clearly P2W.
 
Some people extend that the definition of P2W to "if you can gain an advantage over other players by spending money". For example, being able to purchase rare crafting mats off the cash shop would be considered P2W by some - even if the mats are available in game. If that would be P2W, however, CREDD would also be P2W as it would give those who pay money an advantage by allowing them to afford the materials faster than someone who was just playing the game and not paying extra.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I did not miss his point entirely, I was explaining why I think people would call what MadBlue put in his post that I quoted about rare crafting mats in a cash shop that are also available in game as "P2W".  Guess I should have highlighted his example of crafting mats, but since he gave an example that went beyond the OP, I didn't think it was necessary.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
FFXIV, and back when I used to play it, WoW (not saying it's p2w now, I just haven't played it and can't say).
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It wasn't. I understood you just fine. The problem with your position is that the phrase "available in game" sounds great but can mean anything from "on average, five of these will drop in one person-hour of farming" to "on average, one of these will drop in 100,000,000 person-hours of farming". In both cases, the game's management can proudly declare that everything in the cash shop is available in-game, but in the latter case the cash shop is still--in the opinion of myself and others--P2W. And I'll add that I'm just fine with cash shops, as long as their pricing and items for sale are clearly and transparently defined so that customers know clearly what they're buying and how much they're being expected to pay for it.
 
I'll just note what I've already said about why the definition of P2W morphed to the more expansive version over time:
 
Make of it what you will, but I'm not narrowing how I define P2W just so that this game can sell more CREDD.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
i believe there is a method of buying items from other players with currency in FFXIV so it too is P2W. nice try though.
----
			
Please don't link to gold / game currency selling sites, that is in violation of our code of conduct. There's no need for that here. 
 
Thank you.
- Team WildStar 	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Please don't link to gold / game currency selling sites, that is in violation of our code of conduct. There's no need for that here. 
 
Thank you.
- Team WildStar 
----
			Just to point out a dumb and obvious thing again as I'm sure it's been pointed out already but, CREDD (a system used in multiple games under other names), is just a way to counter buying currency from gold farmers. If the option is available in one way or another, every MMO is thus P2W, at least using the way you're mentioning it. The only difference is the source of the in-game currency.And to educate some, the true use of P2W comes from games such as archeage where it's almost unfathomable that you could be a top tier "godlike" player without spending over $200+ in a cash shop. In short, if this thread is about a cash shop that's fine but the PW2 comment is ridiculous.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Just to point out a dumb and obvious thing again as I'm sure it's been pointed out already but, CREDD (a system used in multiple games under other names), is just a way to counter buying currency from gold farmers. If the option is available in one way or another, every MMO is thus P2W, at least using the way you're mentioning it. The only difference is the source of the in-game currency.
 
And to educate some, the true use of P2W comes from games such as archeage where it's almost unfathomable that you could be a top tier "godlike" player without spending over $200+ in a cash shop. In short, if this thread is about a cash shop that's fine but the PW2 comment is ridiculous.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Just to point out a dumb and obvious thing again as I'm sure it's been pointed out already but, CREDD (a system used in multiple games under other names), is just a way to counter buying currency from gold farmers. If the option is available in one way or another, every MMO is thus P2W, at least using the way you're mentioning it. The only difference is the source of the in-game currency.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Actually, there's several other important differences. CREDD is a legimate, game-endorsed method of obtaining plat from cash and the more it happens, the more profit the game's own management makes; in games that don't have a in-game RMT option, the same practice is against ToS, it's a bannable offense, the people who do it are cheating, and the game's management doesn't make a profit off of it.
 
I will confess that I am amazed at how many times in just this thread I have had to point out these other important differences between CREDD and third-party RMT.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I draw the line at buying power or skipping grind, and WS does both. That i74 DS gear is quite strong, and who wants to grind out runes/amps/abilities/PPP/TEG? All of those can be bought, hell the whole attunement process can be skipped for $.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I'm more amazed you think people don't know and you need to point it out, everyone knows, you're not special. The real difference is we just don't care because we all know RMTing Exists and it's better that it doesn't go to RMTs in the end.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I'm more amazed you think people don't know and you need to point it out, everyone knows, you're not special. The real difference is we just don't care because we all know RMTing Exists and it's better that it doesn't go to RMTs in the end.
 
What about it? You could pay people to get you through relics in XIV back in the day when they mattered immensely as the only ilvl 80/90 weapon. People used to sell the service all day long and make lots of money off of it since so many players wanted it. I could continue but really, keeping it to a minimum because of how utterly pointless it is to dispute these things with some people.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It's pretty *cupcake*ing delusional to claim something is P2W via RMT. If you consider RMT apart of the game, why not hacking or exploiting? That's totally valid right? Hell, it should be OK for games to sell god powers because hackers can use them, right? Not going to lie, I'm getting pretty *cupcake*ing jaded with the WildStar community at this point. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It's pretty *cupcake*ing delusional to claim something is P2W via RMT.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I guess I must really underestimate the power of a gambling addiction. With so much of the stuff from the Cartel Packs flooding the AH in SWTOR, and often for reasonable prices, I don't really see why someone would spend real money on the boxes. But if it's the thrill of chance that gets people to buy them, it's really unfortunate that people get sucked into that. :(
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Just wanted to point out, earlier in this thread I outlined that I myself have spent upwards of $2000 on those boxes since they were released and I had a friend who spent more than $7000 just in one month on ONE SET of those boxes since they get changed and updated every so often. People get sucked into it very easily, myself included sometimes.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You see it all around...ppl are easily sucked into gambling! Its quite common. Unfortunately that leads to a good business model:( Luckily I'm soo greedy that I never gamble at all! I will cry myself to sleep even if I loose a single dollar to gambling. I do spend money, but NEVER if there is a slight potential to loose all of my spent money! (but..thats me)
----
			meh, too early, no breakfast or coffee yet.  must remember why there's long white boxes marring the thread :P	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
That is essentially what you are claiming with CREDD.
CREDD just puts RMT within the TOS of the game rather than outside the TOS. 
----
			So now any MMO that has currency is a P2W game? Because you can buy gold in any MMO. The only difference is that you get a lot more currency for less money in other MMOs.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
So now any MMO that has currency is a P2W game? Because you can buy gold in any MMO. The only difference is that you get a lot more currency for less money in other MMOs.
----
			
If you're arguing that this game is pay to win, technically, then yes, you're right.  Just like if you were to pay someone else for platinum, or pay someone else to powerlevel, or flat out buy someone else's fully geared avatus killing / fully geared #1 ranked PvP geared character.  If you were to just buy that from them, then yes, it is pay to win, just like every other game.
 
If you look at CREDD for what it is --- ie regulated RMT, you can understand it.  CREDD is a way to avoid gold sellers and RMT, while also making Carbine Studios money in the process.  It is a regulated, promoted way to bring the actual and paying playerbase into the RMT economy, instead of accounts / cheaters who are only there to sell.  This benefits almost everyone, except RMT businesses.
 
Now, the distinction comes here:  Does Carbine promote CREDD purchasing to the extent that the more you buy, the more you win?  The answer to that, is most likely no.  With platinum, you can purchase the best runes, the best dyes, i74 BoE items, a pristine genesis key, etc.  Remember, CREDD is regulated by the economy and buying power of platinum. 
 
Does having a pristine genesis key, the best boe i74 weapons and gear, colored black and white, let you "win," in Wildstar?  Well you'd have to define winning, but I think you should just take a look at it with broad strokes.  You can pay real money, to have gear that let's you start Datascape, the highest level of content in the game. I don't think that's winning.  I think that's paying to play catchup, considering GA is puggable, and you can buy all kinds of i74 gear the second you kill DS.  You certainly can no longer pay to win PvP, and I don't believe you will be able to with the changes that they are making for the future.
 
So, I would argue that this game is pay to win, if I could go and buy the tier 2 pve set, the best weapon in the game, and the best pvp gear in the game, with platinum.  I can't do that, therefore I believe I have made a compelling argument against Wildstar currently being Pay to win.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Does having a pristine genesis key, the best boe i74 weapons and gear, colored black and white, let you "win," in Wildstar?  Well you'd have to define winning, but I think you should just take a look at it with broad strokes.  You can pay real money, to have gear that let's you start Datascape, the highest level of content in the game. I don't think that's winning.  I think that's paying to play catchup, considering GA is puggable, and you can buy all kinds of i74 gear the second you kill DS.  You certainly can no longer pay to win PvP, and I don't believe you will be able to with the changes that they are making for the future.
 
So, I would argue that this game is pay to win, if I could go and buy the tier 2 pve set, the best weapon in the game, and the best pvp gear in the game, with platinum.  I can't do that, therefore I believe I have made a compelling argument against Wildstar currently being Pay to win.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
If you're arguing that this game is pay to win, technically, then yes, you're right.  Just like if you were to pay someone else for platinum, or pay someone else to powerlevel, or flat out buy someone else's fully geared avatus killing / fully geared #1 ranked PvP geared character.  If you were to just buy that from them, then yes, it is pay to win, just like every other game.
 
If you look at CREDD for what it is --- ie regulated RMT, you can understand it.  CREDD is a way to avoid gold sellers and RMT, while also making Carbine Studios money in the process.  It is a regulated, promoted way to bring the actual and paying playerbase into the RMT economy, instead of accounts / cheaters who are only there to sell.  This benefits almost everyone, except RMT businesses.
----
			
Hydal, you should respond to CK's post here: 
 
{| class="blockquote"
okay. lets just calm down now. im sure no one wants you to leave wildstar.
 
scenario time.
 
for some odd reason all wildstar servers are wiped and the game is fresh. everyone is level 1. how do i take my money $$$$$ and buy something to give me an advantage over someone else?
 
you cant buy anything because it requires a player to get it and then WANT to sell it to you. even with 10000000000 dollars you could not with money get an advantage over someone. in order for you to get anything it requires for someone to have already gotten it and decide that they dont want it. every dollar you spend will never ever get you to the point where you are better than the one who sold you the item. this is not pay to win this is called an economy. 
 
http://bit.ly/1aSKhwe
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Hydal, you should respond to CK's post here:
----
			Well his definition of P2W is so broad that every single game in existance is considered P2W.  So whats the difference there?  From one extreme to the other?	
----
			
Lol OP doesn't know about gold sellers.
 
ALL MMOS ARE PAY TO WIN BY YOUR LOGIC, BECAUSE ALL MMOS HAVE GOLD SELLERS.
 
The reason Wildstar is better than other MMOs is because you buy gold FROM CARBINE rather than from some Chinese sweatshop slave labor gold farming company!!	
----
			
Hey folks, 
 
Again, please don't start throwing around personal insults and comments in your replies. If you have an issue with what someone has said and it's in violation of the code of conduct, report it to a moderator so that we can look into it. Please don't make me turn this thread around and have to lock it. 
 
- Team WildStar 	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The reason Wildstar is better than other MMOs is because you buy gold FROM CARBINE rather than from some Chinese sweatshop slave labor gold farming company!!
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
And if I accepted your statement that P2W is about handing cash to the game's management for an in-game shiny that lets you beat the endboss instead of handing cash to the game's management for an in-game shiny that lets you progress farther and/or faster than people of comparable skill, time, and playstyle who don't, I would agree with you.
 
But since your statement narrows the definition of P2W to buying a big clickable button with the word "WIN" on it, I do not share your belief that you have made a compelling argument against Wildstar currently being P2W. Instead, I believe that you are doing pretty much the same thing you've been trying to do throughout this thread: change the defintion of P2W so that it doesn't apply to the practice of taking cash and using it to purchase an in-game advantage that you did not earn through gameplay.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Your definition, that you two are arguing, is that the very existence of CREDD -> Plat transfer is Pay2win.  After all, that's the point of the service.  IF you don't have time to invest into the game, you can buy the time shortcuts with platinum.  What we're trying to say to you, is (remember, this game doesn't exist in a vacuum) that you have to include RMT as a standard practice among MMOs.  Yes, it's against the ToS --- but it's going to exist regardless of the business model.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
And as Hydal has repeatedly and accurately noted in response to this absurdly invalid point, hacks exist in MMOs and are against ToS, but that doesn't make all MMOs "Hack2Win". 
 
RMT is not a standard practice among MMOs--in most, it is a bannable offence. Here, it is a legitimized revenue stream. You can pretend that difference doesn't matter all you want. Cheating is not as pervasive in MMORPG players as you seem to think it is, and games that try to legitimize cheating do so at risk of their reputation.
 
You don't have to accept that definition if you don't want to, suit yourself. But I'm not pretending your argument is valid or wasting my time on it when it's based on "It's not cheating if you don't get caught". Most of us outgrew that perspective before the onset of puberty.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Therefore, I would say that this game really isn't pay 2 win, as I don't think the advantage of infinite platinum is all that great.  I have never had money trouble in this game.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I never played WoW, but I'm told that back in its early days there was no way to legitimately buy an advantage with cash.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Naxx40 (last 40man raid in vanilla) had boe weapons, just like DS does right now that you could buy.  Guilds could buy frozen runes to gear out their raid with frost resist gear faster, which went for tons and tons of gold (which was absolutely required that your whole raid was suited up for sapphiron, 2nd to last boss)..
 
Paid carries were a thing as well.
 
Whoever told you that was full of doggy doo-doo
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Whoever told you that was full of doggy doo-doo
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Naxx40 (last 40man raid in vanilla) had boe weapons, just like DS does right now that you could buy.  Guilds could buy frozen runes to gear out their raid with frost resist gear faster, which went for tons and tons of gold (which was absolutely required that your whole raid was suited up for sapphiron, 2nd to last boss)..
 
Paid carries were a thing as well.
 
Whoever told you that was full of doggy doo-doo
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Really? Are we going to keep doing this for 40-50 pages?
If you can buy it with gold but there is no legit way to turn cash into gold, that does not make the game P2W.
If buying it with cash is against ToS but people cheat and risk being banned, that does not make the game P2W.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
till we reach page 100!
----
			LFM P2W thread 14/100, please have experience and be geared or have lots of money.	
----
			
All right this thread has been running in circles for far too long (and it's not even the first one on this matter as well). There will never be a consensus on what "Pay to Win" is. While the "pay" part is pretty straight forward, what is "winning" at MMOs?
 
That definition will vary from one to another making it impossible to provide a definite answer to "is X pay to win?".
 
Now when it comes to gaining advantages through real money, this has been a thing ever since MMOs existed. MMORPG is a genre that will never be fair to all players. Even if we (developer and publisher) prohibit things such as Real Money Trading, implement Bind on Equip mechanics etc. there will always be loopholes. Some of these loopholes are even respecting our rules such as powerleveling, dual boxing, paid carrying (with in-game currency)... The minute we cannot control who is behind a screen at any given time, who is actually playing and how, then there will be unfairness. We cannot put a GM behind every player in real life. I don't even want to mention unfairness due to inequalities regarding latency (someone living in Dallas will have it way easier than someone living in Sydney), PC hardware etc. 
 
Some aspects of MMORPG can be completely fair (including but not limited to regulated and sanctioned PvP tournaments that take place in real life), but that's as far as it goes.
 
Better genres may be suited if you are looking for a perfectly fair environment where money isn't a factor that can give you an advantage. You won't win the WCS or ESWC because you tossed money at your screen. You won't 1CC most arcade games regardless how many quarters or ¥100 coins you waste. You won't beat Daigo or Momochi because you spent $200 on a shiny controller or Cooller at Quake thanks to your $90 gaming mouse.
 
There are genres where money cannot carry you and where getting to the top can only be achieved with extreme skill and dedication. And for the biggest part, MMORPG isn't one of them. It doesn't mean that you cannot reach the top if you do not spend money or take shortcuts, but you surely can as well when lacking both skill and dedication. Who never played an MMO with players wearing BiS gear they didn't deserve to get? With a high PvP rating but playing awfully? I have yet to see however top players (i.e. winners) in certain genres that were lacking skill and/or dedication.	
----