Long, Long Time (HBO's Podcast)/Transcript

The following is the full transcript of "Long, Long Time", the third episode of HBO's The Last of Us Podcast.
== Transcript ==
[Audio from TV show:] Ellie: I used to hate the world and I was happy when everyone died. I was wrong because there was one person worth saving. That's what I did. I saved him. Then I protected him. That's why men like you and me are here. We have a job to do, and God help any motherfuckers who stand in our way. [/End Audio from TV show]
Troy: Welcome to the official podcast for HBO is the last of us I'm your host Troy Baker. This is an episode that I’ve very much have been waiting to get into. Episode three, better known as “long long time”. Well thank you Craig for joining us.
Craig: My pleasure.
Troy: And thank you, Neil, for being with us as well.
Neil: Thank you.
Troy: Let's start at the beginning. We've just left Tess to her demise. We find ourselves in this Babbling Brook, and you see Joel stacking rocks. What was the message we're trying to convey with that?
Craig: Well, we thought it was important to show that Pedro -Joel- missed her. That he was mourning her and in his very simple way just making a small cairn of rocks to say quietly, “I'm sorry. I blew it. I lost you.” It's as much about self-recrimination, doubt, as it is about mourning. But it was important for us to show that he cared. Simply because we know that the story becomes about Joel and Ellie. We didn't want Joel to already be, “Okay it's me and you, kid. Let's go.”
Troy: Hmm…
Craig: There was a moment where we had to stop and acknowledge what happened. And similarly, there was a need for Ellie to address it. Because we understood that pretty quickly in this episode, we needed them to start talking. Their relationship is beginning now because it's just the two of them. By necessity there's no one else to talk to. Which means they had to come to a detonte, right? And in this case, she says “How long is this hike?” “Five hours,” “We can manage that.” That's all we have to do, is just civil to each other for five hours and then we're done.
Troy: There was a really cool exchange where they're talking about “I don't want your apology”. 
[Audio from TV show:] Ellie: Look I've been thinking about-
Joel: I want your sorry.
Ellie: I wasn't gonna say I'm sorry. I was gonna say that I’ve been thinking about what happened. Nobody made you and Tess take me. Nobody made you go along with this plan. You needed a truck battery or whatever and you made a choice. So don't blame me for something that isn't my fault. [/End Audio from TV show]
Troy: There is this interesting posturing that I see happening already. As far as- you know we talked before how Tess was kind of out in front. She was the leader.
Craig: Yeah.
Troy: And so now we have this leaderless band and there's an opportunity it seems for Joel to step up. To become the leader but then also Ellie is saying that “I'm not someone who needs to be led. I can actually handle myself pretty well.”
Craig: Right.
Neil: It's a nice evolution of the scene that was in the game where Joel lays out the rules “Okay, if I'm gonna watch over you here's how things are going to play out.” And I like the addition of Ellie standing up for herself saying “Look, I’ll do all those things but let's be clear I am not responsible for Tess's death.” Which to me- I can't help but look at like Bella and Ellie and say “Oh, you totally feel guilty. You're saying these things-
Troy: Of course.
Neil: -But you're feeling the opposite” you're like that's- it's coming from an insecure place. Which is ultimately, again there's more to be revealed with that with Ellie.
Craig: I'm a big believer that people are liars. It's just part of our- it's part of human nature is that we lie. Hopefully when we're lying we're doing it to make things go a little easier for ourselves and others and not hurt people's feelings and all the rest. But sometimes we're lying because we simply can't handle the truth. And what's interesting is, here's Ellie saying, “it wasn't my fault”. But of course, she feels like it's her fault. And here's Ellie saying, “yeah five hours that's fine we can manage that” and then almost immediately starts asking questions.
Troy: Right.
Craig: -Starts making jokes. Starts asking for a gun. Starts having fun. Starts giving him crap. She wants more than just to manage those five hours. She admires him, she still admires him because of how it all began, when she saw what he did. There is a primal desire I think, in children, to have a parent who will protect them. And even though Ellie was fond of, and had a connection with, Tess. It was Joel who protected her twice. And so, there's, even though she's saying “Oh it's just five hours” in her mind already something's begun.
Neil: What's interesting for me about that scene, with both characters, is they're both hiding their vulnerabilities. They're both trying to be tougher than they actually are because they don't trust each other yet. There's not enough trustor to be vulnerable in front of the other person. 
Troy: There's a dramatic shift in this episode- the first two episodes, it's a lot of heavy lifting you guys had to do, right? You had to introduce these characters. You had to introduce the fiction and the lore and the world. And the impact that the inciting events have had on the world and these characters. And now we've kind of set that up. And once you start establishing, not only who these characters are, but now you're starting like you said, Neil, there's an evolution in these characters. We immediately leave them. We leave them by the river, and they go off on their five-hour hike and we know that they're going to Bill and Frank's, right? We saw that in the end of episode two. This is where we need to go. We need to find Bill and Frank. And then we jump to 20 years ago, at the very beginning of this. And we see this wild-eyed guy-
[Audio from TV show:] Bill: Not today you New World Order Jackboot fucks. [/End Audio from TV show]
Troy: And this is our first introduction to Bill.
Craig: That line by the way, that was not originally dialogue. So, a lot of times when I'm writing, I will put what a character is thinking in dialogue form in italics in the action area.
Troy: Right.
Craig: So, they know, okay I'm not saying these things, but this is what I'm thinking and Nick Offerman said, “Just, uh one thing Craig, um- this line here ‘New World Order Jackboot Fucks’. I'm saying that, out loud.” and I was like “okay, done.” He was-
Troy: I just said it, it sounds amazing.
Craig: Yeah, he was just like “Uh if a line like that must be announced to the world.” And it was amazing watching Nick, who I think some people understand, has this dramatic side to him. Performing in a way that was far more dramatic than I’ve ever seen him perform. And yet still never lose his sense of humor. Like his timing, his comic ability, it's all there. Bill is a funny guy, to watch, even if he is not a funny person character.
Troy: I want to just park it here for a second and talk about Nick Offerman. Because I'll be honest with you when I heard that that was who you're going for Bill, my eyebrows went up.
Craig: Vince Gilligan said once that he loves hiring comic actors for non-comic roles. 
Troy: Clearly.
Craig: Because they have an innate humanity that is there underneath the drama. And they understand the absurdity of the world because that is the bedrock of comedy. And I think Nick is a great example of what Vince is talking about. He just- there is a humanity to him underneath this gruff angry closed off man. Dangerous man also, to an extent-
Troy: Very.
Craig: That was just as important for that character as Pedro's vulnerability was important for Joel. To make sure that we were providing people with a full human being. Because there is no one that's just one thing or the other.
Troy: And a lot of where the comedy versus drama comes from, I’ve noticed, is not from the performance. It's the presentation of- it's the context of it.
Craig: Right.
Troy: We get to see how he eats dinner, watching and enjoying violence.
Craig: Violence, yeah.
Troy: And it's like that's- that's his show until-
Craig: Never gets old…
Troy: Someone falls into a hole.
Craig: Yes
Troy: And we go outside, and Bill discovers the person who's fallen into this hole is someone who's not infected. But it's very very much alive. And turns out to be Frank.
[Audio from TV show:] Frank: I'm not infected.
Bill: Are you armed?
Frank: No.
Bill: Why did you take that long to answer?
Frank: I don't know. I thought about lying for some reason, but reason didn't come. [/End Audio from TV show]
Craig: So, Frank played by Murray Bartlett rolls on into Bill's life the way Ellie rolls on into Joel's. And Bill would have been perfectly happy living alone for the rest of his life. You get the sense that he was living alone anyway. Maybe his mother who's since passed on.
Troy: Right.
Craig: Maybe she lived in the house for a while but otherwise he's alone. And he liked it that way. And then here comes this ray of sunshine. A completely different human being. Uh- this is a guy who is a refugee. He was with a group of people who died. He's left alone. He's fallen down a pit. He's hungry. He's dirty. And he's smiling. And he's smiling because uh- he already can tell something about Bill. That Bill maybe didn't think anybody was able to see at all. 
Troy: Neil, what was important to you about bringing in the character of Bill and Frank into this iteration?
Neil: Yeah, in the game that episode, that section, is about how even though you can survive by yourself, what are you surviving for? What's- what's left? In the game they have a very different fate where they have a big falling out and Bill sticks to his ways and Frank says “I can't live with you anymore” and tries to escape, ends up dying. That's where the exploration of like “oh this guy had a partner that wanted more than just surviving day to day.” You have to live your life, so it was interesting again to take those themes and approach it with a totally different story like now let's approach it as a sweet romantic story. Where the characters can struggle with that idea of “what is this life for? You know, we're here for a limited amount of time. How do we best live it?” And when Craig pitched me this kind of structure, and- The thing I get nervous the most, about changes, is changing the fate of a character. And here we have a very different fate for both than we do in the game. And then I try to do the math of like weighing it or like “well how much do we gain?” Because to me it's when you deviate that much, there's a certain cost to it and it was such a beautiful story. That again explores the themes of love and the complexity that comes with love and the happiness and pain. And even though this Bill dies in the way that Bill doesn't die in the game. It's a happier ending.
Craig: Much happier.
Neil: Because he lived the full life. Like we're demonstrating- like cause eventually where some of the story goes is like- you know there's a demonstration of “Here's what you stand to lose when you love someone. You could feel this immense loss but here's what you gain”. And the contrast of those two things in this episode- I feel really elevate Joel and Ellie's journey through a telling of like a bottle episode.
Troy: Murray Bartlett, I feel like he just popped up in my life. That he's kind of always been there.
Craig: He's always been there. 
Troy: Saw first in season one of White Lotus and I was blown away by- again, we're talking about comedic range and dramatic range, right?
Craig: Yep
Troy: And he does both. How do you go about casting that role that's essentially new?
Craig: Well, that's the joy of auditioning.
Troy: No, it's not. Auditioning is never fun.
Craig: I know you don't like it, but we love it. Um- we were very motivated to cast gay actors. I mean- I’m- I- there's a larger debate, let's take a moment and just talk about generally representation and how you go about being more inclusive in the stories you tell. This wasn't a new concept that Bill was gay. That's in the game. But when you're casting people now- you know you try as best you can to cast actors that are representative of the characters they're playing in some important way or another. Initially the role of Bill was going to be played by Con O'Neill, who played Bryukhanov in Chernobyl. And he wasn't able- ultimately, he couldn't do it because he was on Our Flag Means Death, which is another HBO show, which is very funny if you haven't seen it. So, we can’t do with Con, and that's when the idea of Nick came around. But for Nick and for me, both straight men, it was important to say “look we can do this work. We can tell these stories with these characters.” The key is you have to do your homework and you have to talk to people who have walked in the shoes of these characters. And most importantly, you have to give them room to tell you where you've gotten it right and where you've gotten it wrong. And you have to listen. And in this episode, we were very lucky because Murray is a married middle-aged gay man. Peter Hoar, the director, who did such a beautiful job, as a married middle-aged gay man. Tim Good ,the editor, is a married middle-aged man or you know production manager Cecil O'Connor is a married middle-aged gay man. And middle-aged, as it turns out, is more important than gay in this story. Because it was important to me to tell a story about what older, longer, committed love looks like. Because that's reflective of my experience, so through this lens we put out a call and say look we're looking for somebody roughly between these ages, who ideally is gay, to play this man. And we saw a bunch of people and- and then there was Murray. And it was just- and this was before White Lotus came out. I was familiar with him, but he did such a beautiful job in the audition. And it was as I recall- it was the speech that Frank does towards the end when he tells Bill “Give me one last wonderful day” and it was gorgeous. It was an easy easy casting decision to make. Then- then White Lotus came out and I was like “oh my God…”
Troy: Nailed it. Got him first.
Craig: “…This guy's amazing” And in addition to being so wildly talented, and Murray could play any character as far as I'm concerned. He could play gay, straight, anything. He also is one of the most lovely warm people ever. And Nick, I’ve known Nick, for a long time. He's a friend of mine. He's also just joy. That set was so delightful with those guys.
Troy: Man, that’s good to hear.
Craig: It was wonderful, and I think in part that lovely feeling we had was also informed by something Neil pointed out, which is “it was a happy story.”
Troy: Yes.
Craig: They win. In this world that we've created for this show. Those two guys won.
Troy: When I was watching it the moment at the piano. What- why that song? Like what was that- what is the- there's not a song. There's not a queue of music that's in The Last of Us that doesn't have some meanings.
Craig: Yeah.
Troy: What is the meaning of this?
Craig: We had this idea that Bill and Frank would connect over a song. That would be the thing that would essentially lead Frank to feel differently about Bill, to not just go “oh I see what's going on with this guy?” But also, to want him. And I thought it was an interesting rotation of expectations. You might think “well Frank feels like the kind of guy that would be really good at the piano and have a beautiful voice” and he's absolute shit at the piano. Which, by the way Murray Bartlett is great at the piano and has an excellent voice, which is why he was so funny doing an impression of a terrible player-
Troy: Wow.
Craig: -with a terrible voice 
[Audio from TV show:] Frank: ♪ Sounds like good advice ♪ ♪ but there’s no one at my side, ♪ and i-♪
Bill: No. No. No, no, no, no. So... No, thank you. Sorry. Not this song. Not this song.
Frank: Well, I'm not a professional.
Bill: Well, neither am I, but... [/End Audio from TV show]
Craig: And then bill has this gorgeous ability to play-
[Audio from TV show:] Bill: ♪ Love will abide, take things in stride ♪ ♪ Sounds like good advice ♪ ♪ but there's no one at my side ♪ ♪ and time ♪ [/End Audio from TV show]
Craig: -And this incredibly heartfelt connection to these lyrics. Okay, so I'm looking for a song, that describes a state of permanent lonely heartache that can never be soothed. And I'm also looking for a song that isn't overplayed, that didn't feel cliché. That didn't feel syrupy or gloppy. And this is a tall order. So, I'm hunting around. I'm looking around. I'm struggling and then I have a great idea “I know what I'm going to do. I'm going to text my friend, Seth Rudetsky.” So, Seth Rudetsky is Broadway institution. He is the main DJ on the SiriusXM Broadway Channel, and he also is an accompanist. And he also has created his own Musical. And he's a wonderful guy. He also has the most encyclopedic knowledge of all music, all of it, from classical to show tunes to popular music. All of it. And I texted him and I just said, “here's what I'm looking for, lifelong loss and longing, a sense that you'll never ever get there so a sort of Woe Is Me song” and within four seconds-
Troy: Three dots. Three dots. Three dots.
Craig: Yeah. Ping. Ping. “Long Long Time, Linda Ronstadt.” And it was one of those songs I had forgotten existed.
Troy: Yeah, same.
Craig: And I played it and I was like “oh my God” It couldn't have been more perfect. 
Troy: Could not have been more perfect. 
Craig: And talking with Nick about the lyrics, the- how important it was to understand that the lyrics were someone saying “everyone tells me that it's okay. That love will find me. That the pain of heartache and loss and disconnection will heal. No, it doesn't. No, it's not. And the person that I long for, from afar, I'm gonna love them basically forever in the most unrequited manner.” And to me I just thought “What a beautiful notion that you can't ever get there. The closer you get, the further that light gets away from you.”
Troy: Hmm, for me there's this trepidatious moment after- after Frank has just butchered that rendition of the song. And he sits down, and Bill says, “I know I don't look like the type” and Frank says, “you do”.
Craig: “Hmm. You do.”
Troy: And it's just so offhanded but then the hand comes on the shoulder, and he goes to “So, who's the girl that you're singing about?.” He goes “There was no girl.” But he knows the second that he asks this. Either I'm right and it confirms it, or I got it wrong and I'm going to be really really disappointed.
Craig: There's no chance he got it wrong, and this is something that I talked about a lot with our many partners on that episode who were gay. So, what is it like when you're trying to figure out if the other person is like you, in the minority of sexuality? And all of the men that I spoke with basically said “There are people you really don't know about. There’re people you're pretty sure about. And then there are people you're like ‘oh I see you’”. And this was a case where we felt it was important that Frank could see Bill. Bill's sexuality was buried, not because he was in the closet anymore, the world had ended, literally nobody is around him. He's alone. The whole world is his closet. It was that he had essentially buried his own sexuality. Totally.
Troy: That was a question that I had is “This almost felt like Frank is shepherding-”
Neil: Yeah. Well, the- the thing I like about- I love about this character- is that the contradiction. Like this is clearly a doomsday prepper conservative guy that cares a lot about the Second Amendment-
Craig: Oh, yeah.
Neil: -and he's gay and he doesn't know how to- Clearly, he's never dealt with that. Frank clearly sees him for what he is and he's inviting him. He gives him an opening and he's like- he's not calling him out- he gives him this opening and Bill takes it.
Craig: I mean we talked about “okay like- where's the moment- I had this discussion with Peter Hoar and with Murray Bartlett like where's the moment that Frank sees it?” And I don't like to impose these things. I feel like “okay where you feel it naturally as an actor that's where it will come forth. I can only tell you what I think if you want to know?” and they did. And to me there's a moment where Frank is standing there. He's come out of the pit that he's fallen into, he's got his hands up. Bill's aiming a gun at him basically telling him to get lost.
[Audio from TV show:] Frank: …feels long.
Bill: Look, I'm letting you go. So, go.
Frank: All right. Look first my name's Frank.
Bill: Oh yeah? Here's the thing Frank. If I feed you then every bum you talk to about it is going to show up here looking for a free lunch. [/End Audio from TV show]
Craig: Frank basically says “come on please….
[Audio from TV show:] Frank: I- I won't talk about it to any bums or hobos or vagabonds I promise! [/End Audio from TV show]
Craig: And there's a hesitation. Bill hesitates, because he's looking- he's just suddenly seeing how handsome this man is, standing there in the light and that's something that Frank's brain is incredibly attuned to. It's that fast- there's a moment there- if you watch that scene again, where he kind of smiles and he's smiling because in his mind he's like “I got you. I know you.” And from that point forward it was about, in my mind, about Frank thinking to himself, “Look maybe I get lunch and I move on. I don't know. But let's just see where this goes” and as Bill reveals more of himself to Frank. Frank suddenly realizes “Oh, this isn't about a game of ‘gotcha I see who you are’ or ‘how many lunches can I get?’, this is a beautiful person.”
Troy: And we jump straight from-
Craig: Oh yeah.
Troy: -This beautiful intimate moment-
Craig: Yeah.
[Audio from TV show:] Frank: Oh, fuck you!
Bill: Come on! Hey! Would you stop?
Frank: Do I ask for things? Ever? Ah, why am I even saying that? This isn't for me. This is, this is for us.
Bill: Who cares what they look like?!
Frank: I do! Our home isn't just our house. It's everything around us!
Bill: Give me a fucking break!
Frank: Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot. [/End Audio from TV show]
Craig: What we think of is romantic love- and this is important because there's- so much of the show is about love. What we think of is romantic love lasts, I don't know how long it lasts, a year two tops. I don't know, the really intense part is maybe three or four months, so what does it mean to love somebody after 25 or 30 years. To me that love has nothing to do with romantic love. That love is the product of time.
Troy: And here we see again another version of that love, where love means you fight and you argue and- and Frank says something specific is “it's my street too. This is me-
Craig: “Let me love it the way I want to.”
Troy: Exactly.
Craig: Right and that's the dichotomy that we will play around with a lot. There is two ways of loving things. Frank wants to love outwards. He is sun. He is light. He wants to make things beautiful around him. He wants to care for Bill. Uh- he wants to revitalize the street, so it is not simply this mausoleum that Bill lives in. And he wants to have friends. He wants to share what they have. And Bill wants to put an electrified fence around them. That is guarded by an additional layer of flame throwing gas pipes and no one can show up ever because he must protect Frank from the world. And as it turns out both of those loves are required but one of those loves is likely to get you in trouble more than the other.
Troy: So much of the experience was built in the game is about traps, we pick up new resources. That was, to me as a player, is- is so much of an important factor in Bill's story. When we're in Bill's town but this is a wonderful example of telling the same story in two different mediums. And the cost benefit of that. How do you navigate that between where whereas like gameplay is not a part of this, now we just have the narrative?
Craig: This story in this episode, you could not tell in the video game. It'd be impossible to jump around that much especially the game The Last of Us is, which again is more kind of action oriented, you couldn't go this long without some kind of set piece. Some kind of actions sequence.
Troy: Press F to save Bill's life.
Craig: Um- and therefore you could tell this kind of really moving slower romantic story of- where you jump around in years. And likewise, the story that the game tells and how you're connecting with Bill in the game, by like you're playing alongside him. You're surviving sequences with him. He saves your life like that's how you meet him in the game. Cause you are Joel, stuck in one of his traps and he comes and saves you. We couldn't tell that story in the TV show. It- you'd be bored out of your mind if you're not playing that sequence.
Troy: Right.
Craig: So, it had to change.
Troy: There's a specific moment where he- day one Frank goes in, and he rubs his finger across the mantle to see the dust. And for me that moment was “I have a purpose here. You can make rabbit and pair with a Beaujolais, and you can clearly create traps and-
Craig: And protect.
Troy: And protect us. But I can make it look nice.”
Craig: “I can nurture this place.”
Troy: We have moments of, and I texted you when it happened, and all I had to do was just send you a picture of strawberry, an emoji with strawberries and crying. There's the laugh cry that you do-
Craig: Yeah. When he tastes it.
[Audio from TV show:] (Frank laughs) [/End Audio from TV show]
Troy: And then you see this beautiful moment and what I love is when Frank is, “Not here in the strawberries!” 
Craig: Yeah, “Not here in the strawberries” Which is- that- that’s you know- that’s me and my wife. You know like- it’s that wonderful push-pull of this energy of- of two people who have kind of committed to each other but I- in that scene, what I love is, you’ve got the epitome of who Frank is. Which is somebody that nurtures and grows and beautifies and shares-
[Audio from TV show:] Bill: Oh. Oh.
Frank: I traded Joel and Tess one of your guns for a packet of seeds.
Bill: Which gun?
Frank: A little one. [/End Audio from TV show]
Craig: And then you have poor Bill, who is worried that he’s getting old and who says “I was never afraid until you came along” and that to me is- that’s where the underside of love is.
Troy: Why do you think he takes that moment to apologize and go “I’m sorry for getting older faster than you”?
Craig: Yeah, because he’s afraid that Frank is going to be left alone. He’s already worried about it. He’s already “look at this beautiful man and the Beautiful Things that he does..” And what is Bill’s contribution? Bill doesn’t grow strawberries. I mean, what did Frank- if Frank even traded one of his guns for the strawberries? “A little one.”
Troy: “A little one”
Craig: “A little one”, um- and what is Bill’s contribution? Bill’s contribution is to keep Frank alive. Which we will see in the next scene happening as best Bill can. But Bill is already afraid that he is going to fail. And that is a fear that Joel has in him. Because Joel’s earned that fear through experience. He failed his daughter, at least as far as he understands that to his own trauma, and he lost her. And Bill is already worried. And the most honest expression that Bill can make to prove that he loves Frank is to tell him "I'm afraid because I need to keep you alive.”.
Neil: I mean as cliché as that sounds, that is love. That’s what love is, like putting yourself out there and accepting you’re going to feel pain. A hundred percent. You’re going to feel pain, but it comes with this beautiful strawberry moment.
Troy: Let’s move through from this beautiful moment he says “we’re going to have friends” and Joel and Tess come and-
Neil: Yes, their lunch.
Troy: And you see how the current circumstances are- are mandating a very cordial luncheon.
[Audio from TV show:] Tess: Well, this really is just it’s amazing. 
Frank: Right? Can you not please? [/End Audio from TV show]
Craig: Almost cordial. I mean Bill does have his gun on the table. 
Troy: Has his gun on the table. And what I love is that first one was “can you not please?” 
Craig: “Can you not please?” That’s as my wife-
Troy: As if he’s got elbows on the table.
Craig: I mean, I cannot tell you how many times my wife has said “can you not please?”
Troy: “Can you not please?”
Craig: But it’s that’s you know and then, “Oh your paranoid schizophrenic, too?”
Craig and Troy: “I’m not schizophrenic!”
Troy: Yeah, but you see how Frank and Tess kind of band together. We- we see the introduction of the convention of how the music is going to be their code and then we see, not purposefully, but kind of like “I guess, you and I have to talk” between Bill and Joel. But we do get to see this other part of Joel where he’s pitching to Bill a little bit.
Craig: Well, what he’s doing is speaking Bill’s language because even though, unlike Joel, Bill has been self-sufficient, basically his whole life. And Bill continues to think he can manage this on his own but here’s Joel saying “look one protector to another, since this is our utility in the world. I need to tell you that fence won’t make it.” And Bill knows he’s right the second he says it. And it pisses him off.
[Audio from TV show:] Joel: That fence has got a year on it, tops. The galvanized wire already started to corrode. I can get you 10 spools of high tensile aluminum. Last you the rest of your life. Lives. [/End Audio from TV show]
Craig: Because Joel knows that Bill’s purpose is not to protect himself. Joel understands inherently, as Bill understands about Joel, their purpose is to protect someone else.
Neil: They don’t care as much about their own lives.
Craig: Correct. They don’t care at all. 
Neil: Anyway at least another thing that like- uh as we talk about this, it’s interesting to think about is just how similar Joel and Bill are. And they’re similar in the way that they’re very conservative and by that, I mean it’s about protecting yourself and your tribe. It’s like by closing them off as much as possible. Putting as much of a shell around them so you could keep them safe. And yet they’re drawn to people that take big risks and live life. If you think about like Tess and Frank and Ellie. That’s their similarity. They can’t stand still. It is about kind of going outwards and like affecting some change. 
Troy: The night when the Raiders come is definitely one of those “life is short” moments and we see this flip of the caretaker happen.
Craig: Yep. Frank is a nurturer. Frank is somebody that brings things to life. Frank is somebody that preserves life. That is very different than somebody who’s out there killing people to protect you and, in that moment, you can see the two sides of love. And because Frank is fixed right there in the moment on nurturing and saving and curing and healing.
[Audio from TV show:] (Bill groaning in pain) [/End Audio from TV show]
Craig: And Bill has already written his own life off and is running down a list of practicals.
[Audio from TV show:] Bill: I made a list for you.
Frank: Tell me about the list.
Bill: I have copies of all the keys.
Frank: Good. [/End Audio from TV show]
Craig: And most important.
Craig and Troy: “Call Joel!”
Craig: And that to me is where you start to understand the kinship between Bill and Joel. Even though Bill clearly didn’t like Joel. He resented Joel. He didn’t like the fact that Joel was rubbing his nose in his weaknesses.
Neil: But there’s a respect there.
Craig: There’s a respect.
Troy: And a recognition that he can get this done.
Craig: He will take care of you. Meaning somebody has to be here to murder people. To keep you safe.
Troy: There’s tiny moments with Frank that we get that, to me, are just stories within themselves and we wake up. Frank’s in the wheelchair says “It took me most of the night I’m exhausted.”
Craig: And Bill’s angry at him.
Troy: Bill’s angry. 
Craig: Which is exactly the way it works.
Troy: Yeah.
Craig: You know when you are in that long-term relationship and you go to bed, it’s a quick peck on the cheek. You roll over. You go to bed. You wake up. You see the person that you love has done something you’ve told him not to do 100 times and you’re like, “I’m not arguing about it. Your feet are going to turn blue. Get back in the bed.” That’s it da da da da da and then he gets stopped in his tracks by what Frank says.
[Audio from TV show:] Bill: I’m not fighting about it back in bed.
Frank: I promise you I’m gonna stay up.
Bill: Why?
Frank: Because this is my last day. [/End Audio from TV show]
Craig: What Frank is asking him for, Frank knows is difficult. But what he’s saying to bill is “Every instinct you have is to protect me, to keep me alive, to murder anything that would hurt me. Then I’m asking you to hurt me.”
[Audio from TV show:] Frank: I’m not going to give you anything “every day was a wonderful gift from God’s speech.” I’ve had a lot of bad days. I’ve had bad days with you, too. But I’ve had more good days with you than with anyone else. So, give me one more good day. [/End Audio from TV show]
Troy: In the game the way that Frank meets his end, as we find out through what Bill says, is that he got bit. And Joel says, “well I guess he instead of turning he decided to hang himself”. Where did this idea come from, to make it just even more heart-wrenching?
Craig: Well…
Troy: Is it MS- what would you say? That he had-
Craig: Well, we didn’t necessarily want to specify it for the audience. It was either MS or early ALS.
Troy: Okay.
Craig: But it was a degenerative neuromuscular disorder. And you know this happens. It happens so commonly and yet so rarely as people get older. On screen they tend to be fully healthy until the heart attack staggers them out of nowhere. That’s- that does happen but uh- for the majority of people there is a decline. And we thought it was really interesting to think “look Bill is older but Frank can literally run circles around him.” 
Troy: Yeah.
Craig: He’s healthier. Bill gets shot. And then we jump ahead a number of years. And it’s Frank who’s been brought low by this disease. And there’s nothing they can do about it but you can see how Bill is doing his best to caretake Frank the way that Frank would caretake Bill. 
Troy: Frank was really shepherding him through his- his sexuality and- and even his first sexual experience. But it feels like in this moment, this is where Frank is shepherding him through grief.
Craig: Like Neil says, this is- the price of love is pain. I- I- I’m in my 50s I have to start thinking about what this might be like one day, because it’s inevitable. In many ways Frank is the lucky one because from his point of view, he’s done. He’s ready to check out. It’s Bill who’s going to have to mourn, that’s the hard part. And what Frank is asking him for, Frank knows is difficult. But what he’s saying to Bill is, “Every instinct you have is to protect me. To keep me alive. To murder anything that would hurt me. And I’m asking you to hurt me.”
Troy: We get to the moment of- of dinner and what I found interesting about that moment is, again, we have this private moment with Frank where Bill has made the same dinner-
Craig: Yes.
Troy: -from- from the first night. Arranging that- the charging platters in the same way-
Craig: And then Frank moves it back again the same way he did the very first time.
Troy: So, we had this wonderful mirroring of their first encounter. And then bill goes into the kitchen to get the second bottle. For you guys when was the moment of decision for Bill? 
Craig: My feeling is that somewhere around the middle of the day. When Bill decided, “all right I’m gonna go along with his plan. I will go to the boutique. I’ll put on what he told me to wear. We’ll get married. We’ll do all that stuff. I’ll make him dinner.” Somewhere in there, once he decided “all right I’m going to do this.” Then he very quickly decided, “and then here’s what I’m also going to do. Because there’s no fucking way.” This was a tricky one because there’s a line that Bill says here that I lifted almost directly from the playwright Mark Crowley who- who wrote ‘boys in the band’ just wonderful play uh- from the 60s about gay men navigating their lives and their relationships. And one of them in that play says to the other, “this isn’t the tragic suicide-
Craig and Troy: “Suicide at the end of the play.”
Craig: Not all gay men have to die at the end of the play. Because there is a tradition of essentially equating homosexuality with tragedy. And that a gay man couldn’t possibly just age and be happy and live long. And it was important for me to have Bill literally say, “that’s not what this is.”
[Audio from TV show:] Bill: This isn’t the tragic suicide at the end of the play. I’m old. I’m satisfied. And you were my purpose.
Craig: What I love about all that, besides how beautiful and moving it is, when you watch it is that in a way, Bill is very very lucky that the person he loves the most is going out at the end of his own life. Like Bill doesn’t have a lot left either.
Troy: Right.
Craig: So, the choice is relatively easier but it kind of reflects outwards. Or like it pulses outwards to say “Well, what happens when you lose someone you love so much and there’s a lot of life left in front of you?” Because that’s kind of what we saw happening at the beginning of the story with Joel. And that’s the thing that- Joel is doing his best to avoid ever living again and slowly but surely what the universe is saying “We’re coming back to that moment in time.”
Troy: “You will live life with loss.”
Craig: Yes, and the harsh part, I guess the cruelest part, is that Bill’s note that he leaves behind for Joel is, what he thought was his gift to Joel, is to say “Look I thought it was awesome when everybody died.” 
Troy: Which I think is hysterical.
Neil: Yeah.
Craig: But it turns out I was wrong. But basically a person like me is here for a reason and that is to love a person. Save that person and keep that person alive and God help any motherfuckers who stands in our way. And you, Joel, are exactly like I am. So I’m giving you all my guns, use them to keep Tess safe. And so this gift that he’s giving him, and this thing of “You and I are the same”, he doesn’t understand that by the time Joel reads that letter, Joel has already failed terribly. And that it’s not the first time Joel has failed to protect somebody that he was supposed to protect.
Troy: It was interesting to me that Joel goes “so they’re dead?”
Craig: Yeah.
Troy: And then the letter comes, and that’s when he has to walk outside. That’s what gets him is- I don’t know if it’s a matter of the reminder of Tess or if it’s “I am not good at this.”
Craig: Both. I think that letter underscores for him that no matter how hard he tries and no matter how strong his instinct is to preserve and protect the people that he cares about. He can’t. And then sort of because the universe is lined up this way. And really by the universe I mean Neil Druckmann has created this. There’s this kid who needs him and he has a choice. And the choice is "Do I stop trying to be like Bill? Do I stop trying to be like me and do I just give up and just walk back and whatever? Or do I try again? And do I try again with this kid who represents something far more dangerous to me than Tess ever did?” Because she is a 14 year old girl, just like his daughter was.
Troy: Not only is she a 14 year old girl but as we saw in the beginning of this episode, she’s a 14 year old girl with a sadistic streak.
Craig: Ah yes, she is.
Troy: She stabs that infected that’s in the wall and at the end of this episode not only is she now starting to pull out the joke book and beginning to talk. But now she’s got a gun.
Craig: We really like the idea that Ellie wants a gun and Joel keeps telling her “No you can’t have a gun. Not giving you a gun.” Tess says, “I’m not giving you a gun.” Ellie asks over and over. They’re in Bill’s bunker, “There’s a wall of them.” “No, you can’t have a gun.” And yet at the end, when she’s on her own. She finds, not just any gun, Frank’s gun. It was Frank’s.
Neil: I remember a lot of our conversation was um- the structure of these episodes. We ended the previous episode with Joel walking away from Ellie and not quite embracing this wish that Tess made before she blew herself up. And then here we have a very different ending where like we see them connecting and he’s prepping her and he’s explaining things to her. And he’s now, post this letter, has taken her on in a very different way. Um- so again we feel the impact of like- we left these characters to have this story, this beautiful story between Bill and Frank and now we’re feeling the impact of that story on our two main characters as they continue their journey.
[Audio from TV show:] Joel: If I’m taking you with me, there’s some rules you gotta follow. Rule one: you don’t bring up Tess. ever. Matter of fact we can just keep our histories to ourselves. Rule two: you don’t tell anyone about your… condition. They see that bite mark, they won’t think it through. They’ll just shoot you. Rule three: you do what I say when I say it. We clear?
Ellie: Yes.
Joel: Repeat it.
Ellie: What you say goes. [/End Audio from TV show]
Craig: Well you- you do what I say and- and he says repeat it and she says, “what you say goes”
Troy: I love that! 
Craig: She doesn’t repeat it.
Troy: That’s brilliant writing. I think it’s my boy over here um- there’s a few things that we talked about. It’s the iconic things that we get to introduce right before they leave. 
Craig: The shirt.
Troy: The shirts.
Craig and Troy: Both shirts.
Troy: I love that you made-
Neil: The truck-
Craig: The truck.
Troy: The truck- is what we’re getting into. Which we know will lead us hopefully into the next episodes. What I’m hoping for. Some very iconic moments as well but there’s one last iconic thing as we are following the truck is, it you know, heads off into the horizon and we pull back and we’re now into presumably the bedroom where-
Craig: Yeah.
Troy: -Bill and Frank are and we see the beautiful painting next to the wilted flowers and the open window with the curtains blowing in the wind. Was that intentional? That’s- That’s-
Craig: Oh yeah. We had a whole theory. Things don’t always work out.
Neil: Speaking of failures.
Craig: Yeah, right. Like that’s- the temptation is- this podcast makes it sound like we just thought of only the good ideas. And imagine- look at that. We avoided all the bad ones. We had this idea that we were going to open every episode- 
Troy: With a window.
Craig: With a window. So you know like when you’re watching on streaming and you- the intro comes along a little button says “skip intro”.
Troy: Sure.
Craig: That we were going to change the words of “skip intro” to “press play” so you could sit there and look at this window as long as you wanted. Each episode would have a different window reflecting a different circumstance in that episode. Then you’d press play, and the episode would begin. And in this one we like the idea of coming back around to that window. Well as many windows as we filmed. It just never really made sense anyway. 
Neil: By the way, the reason we were attracted to this idea is because that’s what happens in the game.
Troy: Right.
Neil: The opening of the game. You’re in the menu, you’re seeing a curtain blowing in the wind and it’s like “press a button to start.”
Troy: Yeah.
Craig: It just never came together but the- the plus side of the, you know, the misfire there, was that we did have this ending. Which we loved. And it is a chance to give fans, who have experienced what I’ve experienced as a player, that feeling of the open window and the sense of both promise and loss that it implies. And what I love about the last moment is that it brings us a sense of happiness that you just know that Bill and Frank are at peace and that finally Bill found the person that he could love for a long long time.
Troy: Guys, thank you both for being here today.
Craig: That was great, Troy,
Neil: It was fun.
Troy: This has been The Official The Last of Us Podcast from HBO. Again, I'm Troy Baker, joined by Craig Mazin and Neil Druckmann. You can stream new episodes of the HBO original series The Last of Us, Sundays on HBO Max. The podcast episodes are available after episodes of The Last of Us air on HBO. You can find this show wherever you listen to podcasts. Like and follow HBO's The Last of Us on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. Until next week, endure and survive.
Narrator: This is the official companion podcast for HBO's The Last of Us, hosted by Troy Baker. Our producers are Elliott Adler, Bria Mariette, and Noah Camuso. Darby Maloney is our editor. The show is mixed by Hannis Brown. Our executive producers are Gabrielle Lewis and Bari Finkel. Production music is courtesy of HBO, and you can watch episodes of The Last of Us on HBO Max.
Category:HBO's The Last of Us Podcast transcripts