147600-runes-are-not-destroying-wildstar

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I am guessing WoW is the only mmo you've ever played, because in any other mmo getting your gear to the max level will take you months if not years to complete.
 
Have you ever played aion? To get the starter gear in the first place will take you weeks. Then trying to refine or rune them will take you a whole lot of RNG and gold to Min max. And lets not talk about the BiS gear because that shit will take months or years of extreme dedication to get.
 
or TERA, gl getting your best gear +15 or even +12, now that's some shit to complain about.
 
I am not saying trying to rune your gear in Wildstar is cheap, but you need time and dedication to progress your gear, you can make plat quite easily and just buy the runes for your new gear. DS is pretty hard if you're progressing and you will be in there for months I know because even though I've been playing for a while our guild is only 7/9 so far. So runing your GA gear is worth the investment.
 
Runes are not destroying wildstar. The lag, the distant feel of the environment and story. The lame stereotypical characters and the bugs  is what makes people not care about wildstar as a new player. The raids are what keeps people interested, because they are honestly rewarding and unforgiving.
 
 
edit: This topic seems to be directed towards someone and it was. Around the time I made this topic alot of people were making topics saying runes are ruining wildstar. And I simply didn't agree with them.
			
				
	Edited December 11, 2015 by MonkeyJudge	
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The two biggest problems with runes right now are that not everyone understands how to be efficient with them, so they go broke trying to optimize when it isn't necessary, and that the expense to get raid gear in a better state than your existing gear causes getting upgrades to lose a bit of that exciting rush that usually comes with getting a new upgrade. It's now a "WOW!!! oh :( " kind of response.
 
I don't think it's ruining the game, but I think some aspects need to be fine tuned a bit. Right now, I definitely know players who feel like if they get an upgrade, they need to spend another $5 to buy some service tokens. That certainly leads to less fun being had during progression.	
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The two biggest problems with runes right now are that not everyone understands how to be efficient with them, so they go broke trying to optimize when it isn't necessary, and that the expense to get raid gear in a better state than your existing gear causes getting upgrades to lose a bit of that exciting rush that usually comes with getting a new upgrade. It's now a "WOW!!! oh :( " kind of response.
 
I don't think it's ruining the game, but I think some aspects need to be fine tuned a bit. Right now, I definitely know players who feel like if they get an upgrade, they need to spend another $5 to buy some service tokens. That certainly leads to less fun being had during progression.
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My experience with runes is that it does makes a difference with your character. I made a post about remove support gear for tank because like a noob I didn't fully understand the game. However with some helpful tips and advices. I understood what runes meant as in rune sets and not just runes by itself. Then it comes to fusion runes which gives certain armor pieces bonuses on procs. Once I understoood the rune system my views changed about support tanks in pvp.
 
That's why I think when players complain about certain stuff in this game. I don't think they got their feet wet enough to understand.	
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At least when I played WoW, it was pretty easy to get an upgrade into shape before the next raid. In WS, if you haven't planned ahead, it might take awhile, and that's what's probably causing these problems.
 
All I know is, I never heard anyone in WoW sigh over getting an upgrade, and I never saw anyone feel like getting awarded gear would mean having to spend real life cash.
 
You don't need to tell me about planning ahead, because I do and the system works fine for me. But I'm telling you what I'm observing in others. They are not having as much fun with this new system because new gear has negative emotions associated with it.
			
				
	Edited November 29, 2015 by SlyJeff	
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Ah, I see you singled out WoW as the exception. Reading comprehension FTL.
 
But anyway, the point is what I'm observing.	
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			OP, where you trying to reply to a topic or made a new one on purpose? Because your post doesn't make much sense to be honest.	
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I am guessing WoW is the only mmo you've ever played, because in any other mmo getting your gear to the max level will take you months if not years to complete.
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My experience with runes is that it does makes a difference with your character. I made a post about remove support gear for tank because like a noob I didn't fully understand the game. However with some helpful tips and advices. I understood what runes meant as in rune sets and not just runes by itself. Then it comes to fusion runes which gives certain armor pieces bonuses on procs. Once I understoood the rune system my views changed about support tanks in pvp.
 
That's why I think when players complain about certain stuff in this game. I don't think they got their feet wet enough to understand.
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PVP tanks are cancer 
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Problem with runes right now is that it's easy for non-raiders to get ilvl 90+ gear, but the only way to really get the proper runes for it is to farm a shit ton of glory and hope RNG is on your side when it comes to bags. Either that, or farm a shit ton of plat to buy those pure major set foci (and I'm talking about the normal set foci, not the class set ones) To be honest, there's something wrong when divine foci are cheaper than pure foci. 
 
There are two ways Carbine can do to fix this: Either increase the droprate immensely on the pure majors from Glory bags and from the raids, or give use a way to exchange the Superb ones for Pures (like we have Fragments). I'm mostly in favour of the latter one, as it not just makes Superb foci more valuable, it also gives people who raid and dungeon farm a reason to get them. Plus, the people who mostly do contracts for their gear will be able to at least rune up without having to spend all their savings. 	
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also if you are smart you can make alot of plat in this game. It's really easy.
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Problem with runes right now is that it's easy for non-raiders to get ilvl 90+ gear, but the only way to really get the proper runes for it is to farm a shit ton of glory and hope RNG is on your side when it comes to bags. Either that, or farm a shit ton of plat to buy those pure major set foci (and I'm talking about the normal set foci, not the class set ones) To be honest, there's something wrong when divine foci are cheaper than pure foci. 
 
There are two ways Carbine can do to fix this: Either increase the droprate immensely on the pure majors from Glory bags and from the raids, or give use a way to exchange the Superb ones for Pures (like we have Fragments). I'm mostly in favour of the latter one, as it not just makes Superb foci more valuable, it also gives people who raid and dungeon farm a reason to get them. Plus, the people who mostly do contracts for their gear will be able to at least rune up without having to spend all their savings. 
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Then have a wealth of pure majors after people are finished using them. People always want everything right now and seem to come up with ideas that only benefit them now and don't understand the long term repercussions.
 
Will it take you awhile to gain higher end gear as well as high end runes? Yes it will. Gear and the runes you put in it are a form of progression that this game has chosen to be the time sink or plat sink for those who don't want to put the time in. people already have 3 options to obtain the runes. 1. Glory farm for the bags and have a % chance to gain them. 2. Raid and obtain the runes through progression on a raid. 3. Buy them of the CX for a higher price.
 
People complained that they didn't get enough divine/pure frags to make 1 power runes and now that they have so many of them people are complaining they don't have enough Majors to make 2 power runes. Carbine made it easier for people to obtain the 1 power runes so they could use them for progression sake and see a 2 power rune as a reason to put time/effort into getting them. It isn't hard to obtain them.
 
All this " I want it now" Crap needs to stop. you have been given 3 options to get them and only one NEEDS to be done in a raid. 
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I'm not saying people should get it easily, but when even raiders have problems getting the runes they need (and don't forget, every piece of new gear requires 4 of those), there's a problem. Raids drop a couple, but as you can only do them once a week, and as there are 20 people in a raid who all need them (even more when you count that a raidteam also has subs), it will take an age before you got them runed up (heck, way before they're runed, the raid will probably have moved onto Datascape) Dungeon farming is indeed another way to get them, but again, the droprate of those runes are so low, that even after a full week of dungeon farming for glory you can end up with maybe 2. Final is indeed on the CX, but seeing as there are people who can't do everything every day because of work/RL stuff, it is rediculously expensive. One new piece of gear can set you back 40 plat, enough for 2 CREDD. 
 
Times have changed, people have less time to spend on MMO's, so yeah, the game has to adept. Grinding something 1000 times over just to get progression isn't fun and also not viable anymore for a lot of people. With the rune exchange it won't be that easy to get pure runes still, but it will become a bit easier. Besides, after that there's still class runes you have to get (which imo should be hard to obtain, they are the raid loot equivalent in other games) and Divine Runes will still be expensive (as they should, they're only for DS raiders)
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			As a pvp player the gearing process is good and fast enough, however from what I understand pve people have a harder time?	
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OP, where you trying to reply to a topic or made a new one on purpose? Because your post doesn't make much sense to be honest.
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I absolutely love it when people spout this line and then never expound upon it.
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I can only think of 1 game where you can immediatelly replace your gear with new ones and that's WoW, btw you don't need to fully rune your gear the moment you get it. Keep it, upgrade it and work towards your best in slot gear.
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			There is one thing a lot of people don't seem to notice. Tera and Aion are not the games where progress is taking a lot of time. These are typical asian mmos, where you spend 90% of your time farming for upgrades. If Wildstar is to be compared to any game it's WoW, where majority of your time goes to progression. The problem is that in Wildstar you not only have to spend loads of time on progression, but also farm like some chinese gold farmer, which is just not right.	
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Well we have all seen how quick the pure/divine fragment prices dropped the moment the patch went live that you magically can get over 10 frags from each bag.
That already destroyed a way of getting some easy cash for glory trade and dropped new problems along the way with the major foci.
 
Everyone who actually raids knows, that you progress quicker with your gear than getting those pure foci, especially the major ones, but this in my opinion is the big deal, I like it to farm a raid countless times to get someday a major foci setup or class foci setup. If pure/divine foci would also now drop like crazy, where is the late game fun of progressing further? You just get your gear and dont care even a little to rune your gear, cause it costs practically 0 if those foci are overflowing the broker.
 
Besides, it might be true that in every mmo, there is a bigger casual community, but hell if carbine gives everything for free like those foci idea, there is no real goal in progressing further, or at least it kills the motivation on a long run.
I must say that casuals got a lot of stuff to do to get an easy ilvl 100 gear for not even raiding once and getting it full runed with superb runes for scratch, leave something for the more "active" raiding community aswell to do, farming with hard work and time consuming those pure foci 8)
 
Oh and comparing to Aion and so on, to get upgrades in these games is just a matter of rng, and please by the love of god, keep this rng away from wildstar, I had enough depressing moments in both those games with farming countless hours to have at the end, ah right, nothing :D
			
				
	Edited November 29, 2015 by Scythelike	
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I must say that casuals got a lot of stuff to do to get an easy ilvl 100 gear for not even raiding once and getting it full runed with superb runes for scratch, leave something for the more "active" raiding community aswell to do, farming with hard work and time consuming those pure foci 8)
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Well doing contracts takes less time than an actual raid (except if you have the luck of the world boss contract, which takes a lot of time if they spawn at the right moment). True its no quick way (doing all contracts per day about 5 days per item), but thats good aswell, along with the top tier you get also 2,5plat, which is also not bad for semi-active player who cant do vets or farm 24/7.
 
But in fact you dont need to be raid active to get to decent gear, altough its purple, but its at least 100 aswell.	
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Rift. FFXIV.
 
I for one think it's kind of silly to have what would be an upgrade rotting in your inventory while you struggle to put together a rune set.
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Well doing contracts takes less time than an actual raid (except if you have the luck of the world boss contract, which takes a lot of time if they spawn at the right moment). True its no quick way (doing all contracts per day about 5 days per item), but thats good aswell, along with the top tier you get also 2,5plat, which is also not bad for semi-active player who cant do vets or farm 24/7.
 
But in fact you dont need to be raid active to get to decent gear, altough its purple, but its at least 100 aswell.
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 So for a truly casual player who wants to do things solo
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			I think a big part of the complaints have to do with the fact that, before the F2P patch, it didn't take anywhere near this long. Crafting runes was easy as heck and nearly every slot could have a use for every class/role combo. But now requirements are very specific, and materials for making runes are harder to come by. There's still no simple way to get the really high-powered rune fragments, unless I'm mistaken.	
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Why is that player even in an mmo? Plenty of much better single player alternatives or games that translate well for the single player... I bought a prius to save me money on gas, and it's got a good amount of room for storage, but if moving lots of stuff was my primary activity why wouldn't I buy a truck instead?
 
I would hate to see an mmo watered down to cater to people who use the game like single player + lobby
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Why is that player even in an mmo?
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Not this tired, boring old chestnut. There's a long LONG list of reasons why MMOs need a mix of content, which includes solo and mutliplayer alternatives to formal grouping. Besides it's a misconception that players who don't want to do formal grouping and raiding aren't interested in other forms of multiplayer play, of which there are many, although Wildstar doesn't cater for a lot of them.
 
Besides, even raiders need non-raid casual / solo content or else you get into a situation where raiders just log in to raid and log out again. In which case the raiders are just sticking to their close-knit raid group, so who is being anti-social then?
 
Blinkers off please.
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Here's my example, last weeks raid I got ilvl 96 pants and thought sweet and bought (for around 10 plat) some minor pure class focus to get the 4/8 class set bonus. This week a token for pants dropped (ilvl 100) and I didn't even roll for it, didn't want it because I didn't have to the plat to re rune it.
 
As others have mentioned it feels like a VERY odd progression system because you put in the "hard work" to raid to get new gear, but that gear is completely useless unless you've spent time grinding "easy" content to farm plat to rune it :/
 
I think the solution is for everyone in the raid to have separate chances for runes to drop from a boss, doesn't have to be high, just needs to be a chance. And obviously some kind of increase to the drop rate from bags.
			
				
	Edited November 29, 2015 by H3rboss	
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TLDR:  Aion caters to pay to win while both TERA (Elin) and Blade & Soul (Lyn) cater to pedophiles to make money.  If you're into Korean MMOs you can pick your poison.
 
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I am guessing WoW is the only mmo you've ever played, because in any other mmo getting your gear to the max level will take you months if not years to complete.
 
Have you ever played aion? To get the starter gear in the first place will take you weeks. Then trying to refine or rune them will take you a whole lot of RNG and gold to Min max. And lets not talk about the BiS gear because that shit will take months or years of extreme dedication to get.
 
or TERA, gl getting your best gear +15 or even +12, now that's some shit to complain about.
 
I am not saying trying to rune your gear in Wildstar is cheap, but you need time and dedication to progress your gear, you can make plat quite easily and just buy the runes for your new gear. DS is pretty hard if you're progressing and you will be in there for months I know because even though I've been playing for a while our guild is only 7/9 so far. So runing your GA gear is worth the investment.
 
Runes are not destroying wildstar. The lag, the distant feel of the environment and story. The lame stereotypical characters and the bugs  is what makes people not care about wildstar as a new player. The raids are what keeps people interested, because they are honestly rewarding and unforgiving.
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Here's my example, last weeks raid I got ilvl 96 pants and thought sweet and bought (for around 10 plat) some minor pure class focus to get the 4/8 class set bonus. This week a token for pants dropped (ilvl 100) and I didn't even roll for it, didn't want it because I didn't have to the plat to re rune it.
 
As others have mentioned it feels like a VERY odd progression system because you put in the "hard work" to raid to get new gear, but that gear is completely useless unless you've spent time grinding "easy" content to farm plat to rune it :/
 
I think the solution is for everyone in the raid to have separate chances for runes to drop from a boss, doesn't have to be high, just needs to be a chance.
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Or alternatively if Carbine has a grand plan for what they expect people to do to rune up/earn gold, then maybe they should put some kind of guide out themselves instead of relying on the community to do so?
 
I've heard you can get decent gold from running dungeons after you're elder gem capped for the week, so maybe doing that plus the glory you get you can use to buy rune bags is the way to go? Atm I have nfi.	
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			while I can't attest to anything past 2.5 aion, the original is true... I quit the game after almost 400 runs of Tlabs to get triroans, spend 7-13 hours every day for 2 months(I started adding it up) and it's still +0 in my inventory.as far as tera you don't seem to be very experienced with it... I quit a bit after the wonderholme patch, had nightforge pvp/pve in all slots... at the time I earned my gear wallet warrior'ing would have been a bad deal... soloing KN on my lancer netted me what would have cost ~25$/hour to RMT(the ratio is even worse if you were to buy EMP and sell it, somewhere around 40/hour) so really the average mmo player probably doesn't make 40$/hour, or even 25/hr. I know the prices well because I actually wondered if I could just farm gold as a side job hahaha... but yeah, don't think the extra money would have made up for lost time leveling/gearing all the characters on my account so yeah. but I WAS curious, considering I saw the prices they sent you via whisper/mail to spam you and I couldn't see why anyone would...the whole elin thing bothered me too... but eventually I just caved because it's simply the best race for the 3 main classes I played(10 meter heart thrust, an extra 3 meters on thunderstrike, the only zerker race who could stagger well, and lancer animations are faster than walking(ohhhh macro'ers) and while there are plenty of creepers who might have played the game, I doubt their creepy kid/furry fantasies were enough to keep them there. not nearly as troll as you claim- but if you were bad in that game you were absolute TRASH, so I can except your experience to be less than ideal :P and how can you say pve is RNG? other than the lucky string of crits, there isn't much RNG(except like 4 donuts in a row GG melee)​	
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Or alternatively if Carbine has a grand plan for what they expect people to do to rune up/earn gold, then maybe they should put some kind of guide out themselves instead of relying on the community to do so?
 
I've heard you can get decent gold from running dungeons after you're elder gem capped for the week, so maybe doing that plus the glory you get you can use to buy rune bags is the way to go? Atm I have nfi.
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complaining they got too much loot lmao.do some math for me... the stat budget difference between the ilvl 96 and the ilvl100... then ask yourself is that amount of stats negligible? if yes, then why are you complaining... if no, then why did you toss "a lot" of plat into a piece that isn't "worth it" to you? if you were spending the same amount of time on progression as the people people rolling and it would have been more than a 4ilvl increase for most of them, then you'd be kinda shoddy to roll on it in the first place. alternatively, if you were aiming fot the ilvl100 pants you should have just put pure basic runes in the 96 pants and saved the money towards actually having your class set runes ready for the ilvl100 pants.
 
 either you're complainin​g that you made a bad choice with your plat(runeing a short term item) or you're complaining about 4ilvl's worth of stats. there is no in between there... your raid got stronger from both drops, or are you all about the meters or something? strange if a casual player is hardcore about meters(those two things don't add up well)
 
single player content is​ very dangerous because of botting. single player content being useful = easy avenue for bots to go largely undetected... I mean world of Warcraft has has bots forever, but no one noticed them because they were just farming lower level instances solo for enchanting mats/trash gold... would you rather the market get super inflated because bots have a harder to monitor outlet to gear/money? sometimes I think people don't think before they post an idea, or atleast haven't played enough MMO's to know why things don't work
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^ This is why no one likes casuals.
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^ This is why the game is in the place it's in.
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Nailed it. People keep forgetting we're no longer in the 2000s era anymore. Mmorpgs genre has changed a bit to make gameplay much smoother for their playerbase. Why do you think WoW is still popular even with a bad expansion?
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Having only just started raiding and not wanting to sit back and be carried is why I bought the minor class set runes. So to be honest I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do, if I don't spend the plat am I being selfish for not contributing as much as I could? Or if I do spend the plat am I being stupid for not waiting for BIS gear first?
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			go play wow.YOU are what is wrong with the mmo industry.you: "i like p​​izza, I used to eat it at the pizza restraint"carbine: "uhh... we serve Chinese food"you: "the pizza place makes more money than you, so stop serving Chinese food and start serving pizza."carbine: "heres a dish that's sort of like pizza... it's all we have, after all this is a Chinese place" you: "no, I demand​​​​ pizza or ill tell everyone in the town that this is a bad pizza place and never eat the pizza there"this game has a niche, let it focus on what it does WELL. not what you want that EXISTS IN MANY MMOS THAT ARE PLAYABLE RIGHT NOW. please carbine, allow a bidding system, players can bid on the kind of content they'd like to see, and I'll drop some dime to make sure they don't convince you to give up what you do well to cater to people with no taste buds.	
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YOU are what is wrong with the mmo industry.
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while I can't attest to anything past 2.5 aion, the original is true... I quit the game after almost 400 runs of Tlabs to get triroans, spend 7-13 hours every day for 2 months(I started adding it up) and it's still +0 in my inventory.
 
as far as tera you don't seem to be very experienced with it... I quit a bit after the wonderholme patch, had nightforge pvp/pve in all slots... at the time I earned my gear wallet warrior'ing would have been a bad deal... soloing KN on my lancer netted me what would have cost ~25$/hour to RMT(the ratio is even worse if you were to buy EMP and sell it, somewhere around 40/hour) so really the average mmo player probably doesn't make 40$/hour, or even 25/hr. I know the prices well because I actually wondered if I could just farm gold as a side job hahaha... but yeah, don't think the extra money would have made up for lost time leveling/gearing all the characters on my account so yeah. but I WAS curious, considering I saw the prices they sent you via whisper/mail to spam you and I couldn't see why anyone would...
 
the whole elin thing bothered me too... but eventually I just caved because it's simply the best race for the 3 main classes I played(10 meter heart thrust, an extra 3 meters on thunderstrike, the only zerker race who could stagger well, and lancer animations are faster than walking(ohhhh macro'ers) and while there are plenty of creepers who might have played the game, I doubt their creepy kid/furry fantasies were enough to keep them there. not nearly as troll as you claim- but if you were bad in that game you were absolute TRASH, so I can except your experience to be less than ideal :P and how can you say pve is RNG? other than the lucky string of crits, there isn't much RNG(except like 4 donuts in a row GG melee)​
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Having only just started raiding and not wanting to sit back and be carried is why I bought the minor class set runes. So to be honest I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do, if I don't spend the plat am I being selfish for not contributing as much as I could? Or if I do spend the plat am I being stupid for not waiting for BIS gear first?
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You'd fit well into other communities considering that you get so upset as to constantly insult people who don't agree with your views.
The OP wasn't specifically referring to older versions of the game, therefore they are talking about the newest versions of the game (or recent versions at least).
Considering Aion is about a decade old, it makes it a moot point to argue about RNG from so long ago. Even TERA has had drastic changes since going F2P about a year ago.
 
Your presumptions and assumptions about the SKILL LEVEL of other people only shows your elitist hateful attitude. People like you seem to want games to shut down rather than make changes in order to generate income.
This is the type of person you remind me of. You can keep posting your toxic hateful bile, but you will no longer receive a response from me; I will not waste my time arguing with children or those who think like children.
People like you are why I avoid PvP like the plague. If only you'd stay under your bridge and not spew bile at everything that passes by.
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			So you really can't contribute anything. You're just wasting your time attacking other with your views. Then again that has always been your motto ever since the pvp tank complaints and non stop trolling since then. Don't bother quoting anyone unless you got something useful to say without insulting. Otherwise you might as well type to yourself while others enjoy the show eating popcorn in the background laughing at ya. I guess that's one way to contribute to the community, but not a good way.	
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I guess for some reason I and probably others have just completely ignored basic runes. Now that the drop rate from bags in more reasonable basic runes can actually be an option.
 
The fact that as a raider you can still progress your gear via running dungeons for the gold + glory (to acquire runes) actually is a great way to give those raiding a way to progress outside of raids. It actually seems like a good system! The more I think/learn about Wildstar the more impressed I am with it!
 
I guess the main problem is it needs to be made clearer somehow to the players how they are supposed to progress and Carbine just leaving it up to player to figure it out themselves or hopefully come across it on the forums is pretty bad. Financially casuals will carry free to play games, so you HAVE to guide them as much as possible so they don't get lost on what to do or how to progress and give up. I see a lot of things in this game that seem to be designed from the point of view that "it's designed well, surely people will just figure it out themselves", which is an easy perspective to have when you've made the game/system...
 
TLDR; The current rune system probably is fine and Carbine MUST make it clearer to players how they are supposed to progress at endgame. Leaving it up to players to figure out is BAD.
			
				
	Edited November 30, 2015 by H3rboss	
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			Wow, this thread devolved into nothing but *cupcake* for tat bickering rather quickly.	
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Wow, this thread devolved into nothing but *cupcake* for tat bickering rather quickly.
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TLDR; The current rune system probably is fine and Carbine MUST make it clearer to players how they are supposed to progress at endgame. Leaving it up to players to figure out is BAD.
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I guess for some reason I and probably others have just completely ignored basic runes. Now that the drop rate from bags in more reasonable basic runes can actually be an option.
 
The fact that as a raider you can still progress your gear via running dungeons for the gold + glory (to acquire runes) actually is a great way to give those raiding a way to progress outside of raids. It actually seems like a good system! The more I think/learn about Wildstar the more impressed I am with it!
 
I guess the main problem is it needs to be made clearer somehow to the players how they are supposed to progress and Carbine just leaving it up to player to figure it out themselves or hopefully come across it on the forums is pretty bad. Financially casuals will carry free to play games, so you HAVE to guide them as much as possible so they don't get lost on what to do or how to progress and give up. I see a lot of things in this game that seem to be designed from the point of view that "it's designed well, surely people will just figure it out themselves", which is an easy perspective to have when you've made the game/system...
 
TLDR; The current rune system probably is fine and Carbine MUST make it clearer to players how they are supposed to progress at endgame. Leaving it up to players to figure out is BAD.
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Each piece of gear doesn't  Require any 2 power runes. This is min/maxing if people are crying about min/maxing taking more time than doing it the basic way then they have no idea about end game progression.
 
The moment guilds kill SD you will hear all this crap again about how its too hard to get majors so the last part of your argument can be thrown away. All this " hard to get crap" From non raiders is coming from the same people who wanted raid level gear ilvl100 without having to raid, So now they have it and have moved on to complain about another thing? Should it be fixed so they can move to something else to complain about? My opinion is no. People will always find something to cry about in a month or two more runes will be floating around the CX and the price will drop hard.
 
Changing drop rates to help with a short term issue doesn't help anyone. I runed my esper with full pure/divine 1 power runes and im only 8% multihit and 120 focus pool behind a fully runed esper. There is no issue with the way it is.
 
Or you could give everyone ilvl120 fully runed gear and watch as the same people find something new to cry about like hmm lets see no progression for them as they have everything in the game. That would work as well
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So, we did kill SD. I opened 30K glory worth of divine bags and did not get a major Focus.
 
I ended up purchasing the runes off the AH and it would up costing me 85 plat for two pieces. But I had the plat, so I did it (the guild only has a few divine majors, so we are only giving those to people with ilvl 120 items).
 
My wife has very similar gear to me (same class- our AP differed by 4) and we followed the scheme above with her gear (two one power divines and two two power pures), since she had less plat than me. When all was said and done, our stats are almost the same except for tertiary stats (we are both crit capped, ST capped, and have a high crit severity). So I have a little more vigor, that's about it. And she spent about 5 plat (because we've been harvesting GA and so the pures are available to us) vs my 85. I can easily say that my route was not necessary. It was my choice and I did it full well knowning I could just wait for BiS gear to drop, but I figure I'm not planning on spending the plat on anything else,
So why not?
 
Bottom line is, using one power runes is an option. You are not going to have min/max to clear the content.
 
And besides, my wife is probably still going to out DPS me. :P
			
				
	Edited November 30, 2015 by SlyJeff	
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			told ya its not worth it to use majors in ilvl116 gear. you could have used those 80plat to shut up some whiners ;)	
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{| class="blockquote"
So, we did kill SD. I opened 30K glory worth of divine bags and did not get a major Focus.
 
I ended up purchasing the runes off the AH and it would up costing me 85 plat for two pieces. But I had the plat, so I did it (the guild only has a few divine majors, so we are only giving those to people with ilvl 120 items).
 
My wife has very similar gear to me (same class- our AP differed by 4) and we followed the scheme above with her gear (two one power divines and two two power pures), since she had less plat than me. When all was said and done, our stats are almost the same except for tertiary stats (we are both crit capped, ST capped, and have a high crit severity). So I have a little more vigor, that's about it. And she spent about 5 plat (because we've been harvesting GA and so the pures are available to us) vs my 85. I can easily say that my route was not necessary. It was my choice and I did it full well knowning I could just wait for BiS gear to drop, but I figure I'm not planning on spending the plat on anything else,
So why not?
 
Bottom line is, using one power runes is an option. You are not going to have min/max to clear the content.
 
And besides, my wife is probably still going to out DPS me. :P
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{| class="blockquote"
told ya its not worth it to use majors in ilvl116 gear. you could have used those 80plat to shut up some whiners ;)
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{| class="blockquote"
You also talk about stat caps. WTF are they? I know of the "strike through cap" from reading the forums (as in DS needs about 17%) but I hover over the crit stat for instance and it says nothing about a cap?
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{| class="blockquote"
It'll take longer than 5 days for players that want to avoid veteran dungeons and adventures,
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{| class="blockquote"
why do you need full i100s with exceptional pure runes if you don't do anything? dungeons are really fun. raids are fun. adventures are even fun when you've done them fewer than 10 billion times (malgrave excluded)
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			I'm addicted to holowardrobe AND housing. apparently that's endgame	
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{| class="blockquote"
At least when I played WoW, it was pretty easy to get an upgrade into shape before the next raid. In WS, if you haven't planned ahead, it might take awhile, and that's what's probably causing these problems.
 
All I know is, I never heard anyone in WoW sigh over getting an upgrade, and I never saw anyone feel like getting awarded gear would mean having to spend real life cash.
 
You don't need to tell me about planning ahead, because I do and the system works fine for me. But I'm telling you what I'm observing in others. They are not having as much fun with this new system because new gear has negative emotions associated with it.
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{| class="blockquote"
I'm not at raid level yet. Too many alts... I have a problem. My question would be, how often do you get upgrade gear while raiding in WS? If you actually did wind up spending that $5 per upgrade would it be more than $15 a month on average? If yes, then there's a problem. If not, people have to remember they're paying $15 a month in WoW to get their upgrades their too. My thought on the whole WS F2P thing is, as long as there's no pay to win and players don't have to spend more than $15 a month to play, it's all good to me.
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{| class="blockquote"
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16sYaGZp0UQw7l5eXhLSslCkxrGBtGAkbTWOIbfQ_AI4/edit#gid=216302878&vpid=A1
 
Click on the tab for your class.
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{| class="blockquote"
So you don't want to raid, that's fine, but you don't want to vet dungeon either? What content do you want to have more of (or new stuff) and what rewards do you expect to get from them?
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While I know having the pure major foci (not class) are not at all necessary, I do feel that the difficulty in acquiring  them is a little too much.  I won't even ask that they be made easier to get with rune bags, just make them drop more often in the actual raids.
 
I understand getting fully runed out is part of the end-game gearing, and if Carbine says that the drop rate is where they want it, fine.  Ideally I'd like them to drop more in raids, either a flat drop increase or just give each player a major for each boss kill.
 
Either way I'll be fine playing W* now that fragments are more reasonable.	
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{| class="blockquote"
While I know having the pure major foci (not class) are not at all necessary, I do feel that the difficulty in acquiring  them is a little too much.  I won't even ask that they be made easier to get with rune bags, just make them drop more often in the actual raids.
 
I understand getting fully runed out is part of the end-game gearing, and if Carbine says that the drop rate is where they want it, fine.  Ideally I'd like them to drop more in raids, either a flat drop increase or just give each player a major for each boss kill.
 
Either way I'll be fine playing W* now that fragments are more reasonable.
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Well, I'm not going to say the drop rates are fine- spending 30K glory on bags and not getting a single major foci- yeah, the drop rate should be higher, imo. That represents quite a lot of dungeons . . .
 
But it's not as bad as some are saying.	
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In reply the casual vs hardcore stuff all these new mmorpgs who become solo mmorpgs fail as well, the thing about older ones like eq is they stick around because they are a niche and they work, mmorpgs are about group play anyways and that is the original design, there are plenty of single player games for solo play that do it much better. And if you want to chat in a glorified chat room well there is plenty of much better ones of those as well.
 
City of heroes was a good example as you had many classes that could solo better then others, and it didnt matter because if you  where more support invites where easy, even everquest had quite a few solo classes and I had no issues soloing. An mmorpg does not need to be super solo friendly to do well period.
 
But it does sound like crafting and runes need to be toned down.	
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{| class="blockquote"
Fun for you. Not fun for me. People enjoying different things shouldn't be a difficult concept.
 
But you make a valid point, I don't really need ilevel 100 gear to run Veteran Shiphands and Contracts, other than to make running them a little faster, which is rather cyclical. But as a non-raider there's not much else to chase after. Oh wait, silly me ... I need to go play with my house don't I.
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{| class="blockquote"
The problem is when others are out performing you because they spent money.
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{| class="blockquote"
A major for each boss kill means you'd have a full say GA class set in 3 bosses though (as you want 3 major/2 minor). That's insanely quick!
 
This thread has made me think the current drop rates are probably fine (a SLIGHT increase in drop rate probably wouldn't hurt though) and that the problem actually lies with the lack of communication to the players from how Carbine expects players to progress. How you communicate that to the player though I'm not quite sure.
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{| class="blockquote"
There's nothing in this game you can't get by spending time on it. This game is not pay to win.
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{| class="blockquote"
I  remember reading somewhere you can spend money to aquire runes faster somehow that is a pay to win aspect.
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			Since when is casual = solo player? Casual - by definition - means that someone can't or doesn't want to play that much. He just plays when he's in the mood for it, and probably will only play the parts of the game he likes. E.g. I won't farm money, because it's no fun. I work enough IRL, thanks. It's already an abomination that people are speedrunning the dungeons in this game. It's totally sad, because these dungeons are (were, half a year ago...) awesome. And yeah, don't get me started on PvE players farming plat in battlegrounds...	
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{| class="blockquote"
I am guessing WoW is the only mmo you've ever played, because in any other mmo getting your gear to the max level will take you months if not years to complete.
 
Have you ever played aion? To get the starter gear in the first place will take you weeks. Then trying to refine or rune them will take you a whole lot of RNG and gold to Min max. And lets not talk about the BiS gear because that shit will take months or years of extreme dedication to get.
 
or TERA, gl getting your best gear +15 or even +12, now that's some shit to complain about.
 
I am not saying trying to rune your gear in Wildstar is cheap, but you need time and dedication to progress your gear, you can make plat quite easily and just buy the runes for your new gear. DS is pretty hard if you're progressing and you will be in there for months I know because even though I've been playing for a while our guild is only 7/9 so far. So runing your GA gear is worth the investment.
 
Runes are not destroying wildstar. The lag, the distant feel of the environment and story. The lame stereotypical characters and the bugs  is what makes people not care about wildstar as a new player. The raids are what keeps people interested, because they are honestly rewarding and unforgiving.
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Again, the problem is that people are enjoying gear upgrades less than they were. This is the effect Carbine has to be careful of.
 
Also, let me re-iterate- I opened 30K with of divine bags and didn't get a single major focus. That is a ridiculous amount of time spent grinding glory to get nothing for it.I'm not against the system, or even the rarity of the focus. It does not bother me that I blew through 85 plat to rune my newest acquisitions. But getting nothing for all that glory bothers me, and hearing raiders sigh over upgrades bothers me.
 
I just would like to see the system tweaked enough the upgrades are fun and yet there still is an aspect to working to get your upgrades in shape. Without a crazy amount of RNG (did I mention the 30K glory I spent for nothing?)	
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{| class="blockquote"
Funny you should mention WoW.  When WoW first released it was the same way as all the other games you mentioned.  It used to take months to max out a character's power at end game because the enchants and gear were so difficult to get from Raids.  After a few years Blizzard started dumbing down the end game progression system at the behest of the min/maxers and low and behold, the turnover rate for players actually doing the Raids increased drastically.  Eventually people were able to max out their character after only a couple weeks, then they would declare Vinni Viddi Vicci and complain that "there was nothing left to do".  So they stopped Raiding.  Then people blamed everything that wasn't Raids (you name it, it was a scapegoat - LFR in particular)....
Being able to extract Runes, that mechanic is the convenience, not the main attraction.  So, I agree, Rune extraction is not ruining Wildstar.  All the "but I want it now" business that I see going on, well, that might ruin Wildstar in the long run...
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{| class="blockquote"
Again, the problem is that people are enjoying gear upgrades less than they were. This is the effect Carbine has to be careful of.
 
Also, let me re-iterate- I opened 30K with of divine bags and didn't get a single major focus. That is a ridiculous amount of time spent grinding glory to get nothing for it.
 
I'm not against the system, or even the rarity of the focus. It does not bother me that I blew through 85 plat to rune my newest acquisitions. But getting nothing for all that glory bothers me, and hearing raiders sigh over upgrades bothers me.
 
I just would like to see the system tweaked enough the upgrades are fun and yet there still is an aspect to working to get your upgrades in shape. Without a crazy amount of RNG (did I mention the 30K glory I spent for nothing?)
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{| class="blockquote"
The "real" endgame progression in WoW is mythic raiding (previously called heroic), and you still don't max that out in a few weeks if you're not among the first fewhundred guilds in the progress. The real dumbing down was not that you could enchant or gem easier (btw I began playing in BC and I don't remember enchanting being expensive), the real dumbing down was the introduction of LFR, which killed the motivation in a lot of people to get better in raiding than that level. It totally destroyed the community and called to life this "I want it now" mentality and greatly contributed to the "MMO locust" phenomenon.
 
EDIT: btw, about the second paragraph - people are speedrunning dungeons because only the plat/hour matters now, since you need plat for runing. This also affects new players' experience on dungeons. Yeah, totally not bad for other parts of the game.
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{| class="blockquote"
What did you think it was going to be?
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			Lfr did kill any remaining difficulty...	
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{| class="blockquote"
I don't think you understand me. I'm not against grinding for small upgrades. I *am* saying that the RNG shouldn't be so harsh that 30K worth of glory wouldn't net a few major foci. I put in the grind and didn't mind it all. Getting next to nothing for the grind? Yuck.
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Well, I did learn that I should just avoid the divine bags. I should've bought superb bags, sold the runes, and then used them to buy the foci I needed.
 
I think I ended up with 800 divine fragments- worthless. That many superb fragments and I'd have paid for all my changes	
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{| class="blockquote"
Since when is casual = solo player? Casual - by definition - means that someone can't or doesn't want to play that much. He just plays when he's in the mood for it, and probably will only play the parts of the game he likes. E.g. I won't farm money, because it's no fun. I work enough IRL, thanks. It's already an abomination that people are speedrunning the dungeons in this game. It's totally sad, because these dungeons are (were, half a year ago...) awesome. And yeah, don't get me started on PvE players farming plat in battlegrounds...
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{| class="blockquote"
Well, like it was before F2P.
 
I don't think you understand me. I'm not against grinding for small upgrades. I *am* saying that the RNG shouldn't be so harsh that 30K worth of glory wouldn't net a few major foci. I put in the grind and didn't mind it all. Getting next to nothing for the grind? Yuck.
 
I am also saying that players shouldn't feel negatively towards getting rewards. I don't care if that is oldschool or whatever.
 
Someone geting an upgrade and thinking "*sigh* how am I gonna afford this?" is different from running Kara looking for a small upgrade.
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{| class="blockquote"
You're mad because people are running the content as efficiently as they can for time/reward? OK...
 
You might enjoy clearing mountains of pointless trash, most do not.
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{| class="blockquote"
Lfr did kill any remaining difficulty...
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{| class="blockquote"
So why are the 'mountains of pointless trash' there in the first place? Game design issue.
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{| class="blockquote"
Well, like it was before F2P.
 
I don't think you understand me. I'm not against grinding for small upgrades. I *am* saying that the RNG shouldn't be so harsh that 30K worth of glory wouldn't net a few major foci. I put in the grind and didn't mind it all. Getting next to nothing for the grind? Yuck.
 
I am also saying that players shouldn't feel negatively towards getting rewards. I don't care if that is oldschool or whatever.
 
Someone geting an upgrade and thinking "*sigh* how am I gonna afford this?" is different from running Kara looking for a small upgrade.
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{| class="blockquote"
Mhm... So LFR is the reason for why Mythic Raiding is so easy in WoW, gotya.
 
"If you're not willing to 'work' for it, then you don't deserve it."
 
I don't care if you don't agree with a statement that I never directed at you in the first place.  I have no sympathy.  You play Wildstar because you want old school style end game raid progression, it shouldn't shock you that this is exactly what you are getting.
 
If the time commitment to get the best stuff is too much for you, maybe you should try crafting or running expeditions instead of trying to change the game to suit your specific needs?
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{| class="blockquote"
1.  All the min/maxers who cried and complained that the end game progression takes too long are going to get their BiS crap right away and max out their characters right away.  Then,  all the min/maxers who max out their characters right away are going to start crying because now they "have nothing to do!" and they're going to quit the game because they're "bored".
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{| class="blockquote"
I don't care how much glory you spent, players "feeling negatively" about getting rewards is purely a problem of the player.
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{| class="blockquote"
Has anyone actually run any numbers on the difference between say set runed ilvl 96 gear and basic runed ilvl 100 gear? Because it's REALLY cheap to rune your gear with basic pure runes, I have a feeling that the difference would be negligible as the set bonuses actually aren't that big. If I'm not just talking rubbish then this once again falls back to poor understanding by most on the runes, which is Carbines fault.
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{| class="blockquote"
Don't try to pretend that just because you don't have BiS gear you can't progress.
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{| class="blockquote"
Yes, there is something to that, but the solution is to implement time gating and grind to artificially lengthen the process? Because that makes it "hard"? And fun?
 
 
I couldn't care less about gear, but sadly I have to, because it's a tool of progression. But it's only a necessary "evil" for me. It's merely an obstacle I have to overcome to see and enjoy the actual content. I'm not promoting throwing everything to people for free, but I would like to see fun content, not boring grind.
 
 
EDIT:
Fun fact. People seem to think that WoW and Wildstar are much different, but in reality, the 2 games are VERY similar in their current state (note: I'm comparing from a mythic raider point of view, because only those are comperable to WS raids). They both changed to be like the other one, and now they pretty much provide the same "services", with only combat system being different. In fact, even this "runing grind" is present in WoW currently in some form with the latest patch: all gear that drops is now upgradable with 10 itemlevels - but to do that, you have to farm valor points, which can be acquired by running 5 man dungeons and raid finder(!), so you have to farm previous casual content for a gear boost in mythic... Of course valor doesn't drop from mythic raids... So go farm boy, because that's content, that's what makes the game last.
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{| class="blockquote"
Has anyone actually run any numbers on the difference between say set runed ilvl 96 gear and basic runed ilvl 100 gear? Because it's REALLY cheap to rune your gear with basic pure runes, I have a feeling that the difference would be negligible as the set bonuses actually aren't that big. If I'm not just talking rubbish then this once again falls back to poor understanding by most on the runes, which is Carbines fault.
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{| class="blockquote"
No, the challenge comes from entering the fight with a statistical disadvantage.
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{| class="blockquote"
Why do you waste your time on a game in the first place?
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{| class="blockquote"
Most people don't like doing trash (due to the bad time/reward ratio), if you do you either have too much time on your hands or are just a weirdo ;)
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{| class="blockquote"
Guess I'm a weirdo, because if I'm in an instance... I'm there to do the entire instance. Speedrunning crap gets so insanely boring. It was the worst part about FFXIV. -_-; Well that and the arbitrary restrictions on customization, but y'know.
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{| class="blockquote"
Apart from OCD why would you do content that doesn't reward you for the time you're putting into it? From the around two months I've put into Wildstar it seems to have a fairly satisfying time/reward ratio, though I do ignore as much trash as possible when dungeoning and I did enjoy the bugged greed flasks... 2 gold a quest does feel pretty rubbish now.
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{| class="blockquote"
The reward is the experience. Some people play video games because they're fun. Strange concept, I know.
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{| class="blockquote"
Yeah, but if we go down that road, why don't you go into the raid naked...? Why is gear in the game at all...? And why are you doing anything outside of raiding at all, since everything you do makes you stronger, hence reducing the challenge...
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{| class="blockquote"
I don't see anyone doing that.
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{| class="blockquote"
But all joking aside, you should probably sit down for what I'm about to say, because this is going to absolutely blow your mind.
 
Are you sitting down?  Ok, good.  Deep breath, here it goes:
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{| class="blockquote"
Mhm, tell me again about how many dedicated Raiders have quit because of the Rune system and how that's bad for the game.
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			Anyone noticed the lack of rune fragments dropping?	
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