121112-a-solid-idea-for-helping-new-players-overcome-challenging-mechanics

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There's been a lot of talk over in that other thread about nerfing leveling dungeons, which I am against, but I realize coming in with no knowledge of mechanics can make the current dungeons a challenge, even when the execution isn't hard. I know my wife (this is her first MMO) said to me many times "how would I know this if you weren't here to tell me?" It's a fair question.I know Carbine is putting in a training dungeon, which I think is great, but it still doesn't overcome the step of knowing what to do in individual fights. Eclips had a really good thought in that other thread, and I think it warrants its own discussion, so pasting here for that :) 
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I think something as simple as a text box or a little bit of quest text for the dungeon public events (killing bosses) that explain what to do would go a long way.For instance, in KV first boss. After wiping the first time, an NPC appears that gives you a hint, something like:"When the big pig gets angry, it swings its tusks wildly in one direction. It's best for most of the group to stand behind it during the heat of battle. Watch out for the thrashing it does, as it's hard to avoid! A seasoned adventurer prepares control abilities and CC breaks to be used at the right time!"An in-game tutorial so to speak. This really doesn't require much, and would take very little engineering to pull off. I've found that (even though I'm just now doing veteran dungeons myself), I don't really know what I'm interrupting / what I'm supposed to be doing until AFTER I've wiped a few times. I get that it's one of the aspects of difficulty of this game, but there's only so much you can do to put challenging content in front of new players.Further, you're not seeing enough player interaction. With low population, comes a lower amount of guide-making or leadership. The difference that 1 person can make with a macro that explains the fight to new people is astounding.
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Most MMOs have a community of people who produce guides and keep them updated. This makes it much easier for new players to level, gear up, do dungeons, etc. The community in this game is too busy complaining to do something like this. The guides that are out there are out of date, abandoned, etc.
 
People keep saying "we want more players" ... well you can help by writing a guide welcoming new players to pve/pvp. I just hit 50 and honestly the game, itemization, dailies, etc is just overwhelming. And there isn't anything out there that I've found to make the transition easier. I haven't logged on since hitting 50 not because of what the devs did.	
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Most MMOs have a community of people who produce guides and keep them updated. This makes it much easier for new players to level, gear up, do dungeons, etc. The community in this game is too busy complaining to do something like this. The guides that are out there are out of date, abandoned, etc.
 
People keep saying "we want more players" ... well you can help by writing a guide welcoming new players to pve/pvp. I just hit 50 and honestly the game, itemization, dailies, etc is just overwhelming. And there isn't anything out there that I've found to make the transition easier. I haven't logged on since hitting 50 not because of what the devs did.
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			Hit me up in game, I'll explain every fight to it's last detail, hell I'll explain to you anything you want. If you choose to ignore the advice and guides of other players, then learn the way I did. Trial and error. From what I can tell, there is no RNG in bosses. There is RNG of when and where and onto whom, but the mechanics themselves generally follow patterns. Learning to recognize these patterns is what makes PvE content fun.	
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Hit me up in game, I'll explain every fight to it's last detail, hell I'll explain to you anything you want. If you choose to ignore the advice and guides of other players, then learn the way I did. Trial and error. From what I can tell, there is no RNG in bosses. There is RNG of when and where and onto whom, but the mechanics themselves generally follow patterns. Learning to recognize these patterns is what makes PvE content fun.
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How you get from "Hit me up in game. I'll explain every fight to it's last detail..." to "Learning to recognize these patterns is what makes PvE content fun" is beyond me. 
 
I agree that learning the patterns is fun, but everyone who gets stuck along the way should not need to "hit you up in game". The Caretaker could provide the exact same advice you do. He could even do it in successively detailed steps with each additional wipe in the same place.
 
As long as there's an option in the system menu somewhere to voluntarily "disable post-wipe Caretaker hints" for people who do want to struggle through it, I think this is a great idea.
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			Are you afraid of losing your job to the Caretaker text boxes, Psyknis?	
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No game in the history of forever tells you how to beat it, why would an MMO that boasts about its inherent difficulty be the one exception in the history of forever? Me telling you what happens and you experiencing it are to vastly different things.
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How you get from "Hit me up in game. I'll explain every fight to it's last detail..." to "Learning to recognize these patterns is what makes PvE content fun" is beyond me. 
 
I agree that learning the patterns is fun, but everyone who gets stuck along the way should not need to "hit you up in game". The Caretaker could provide the exact same advice you do. He could even do it in successively detailed steps with each additional wipe in the same place.
 
As long as there's an option in the system menu somewhere to voluntarily "disable post-wipe Caretaker hints" for people who do want to struggle through it, I think this is a great idea.
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No game in the history of forever tells you how to beat it, why would an MMO that boasts about its inherent difficulty be the one exception in the history of forever? Me telling you what happens and you experiencing it are to vastly different things.
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We are not supposed to agree on stuff Yasfan . . .
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I think this is best saved for the training dungeon. Even though there are some leveling dungeons that are not max-level, part of the fun comes from figuring out what is happening and why you're dying with your team.
 
So one dungeon that works as described in the OP, the training dungeon is perfect at low levels. Any more than that is making the assumption that players want it to be easier and easier with each wipe (effectively, WoW's LFR mechanic.)	
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WoW has a built in dungeon journal since 2011 that explains each encounter.
 
They added that because practically everyone has been using addons (DBM and BW) to explain every encounter since the very beginning of WoW's existence.
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We are not supposed to agree on stuff Yasfan . . .
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I think this is best saved for the training dungeon. Even though there are some leveling dungeons that are not max-level, part of the fun comes from figuring out what is happening and why you're dying with your team.
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I doubt very many people are having that kind of fun with the leveling dungeons anymore- I agree it was fun right after launch when everyone was figuring this stuff out, but now people don't have the patience. I think most runs are successful when you have an experienced player in the group- and at that point no one's figuring anything out- it's just being explained by the experienced player.
 
Of course, I can admit there's value to the experienced player doing the explanation- it adds an element of teamwork and a feeling of working together. But of course, this could still be achieved by the player explaining before the first wipe. And if a pre-made group really wants to figure things out (like my guild would have done at launch) you could just turn the option off.
 
Anyway, I don't disagree with you completely, but my feeling right now is that more explanations for leveling dungeons (not vets) would allow more people to experience the dungeons without toning down the most fun parts (the execution).
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			Eclips:  Invalidating 6 months worth of veteran shiphands by putting a text box in the right place.	
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Eclips:  Invalidating 6 months worth of veteran shiphands by putting a text box in the right place.
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You can gate dungeons by gear, speed, and whether or not you die in it etc.  Gating something because it's hard to figure out is something you reserve for world firsts etc in raids.  Things that people should be doing every day like vet dungeons?  Meh.  Just let me do it because it's part of my content gate (attunement), or its the best way to cap elder gems, etc.
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			https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2plrOpjZhEw really does teach any players what they should know......knowing and doing.....well that is up to the player	
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I've run about 60+ low level dungeons with new members in the guild.
 
The problem isn't so much the not standing in the red part but it's the interrupting of certain casts that is hard to grasp for most new players.
DPS goes in and try to keep his rotation and not to get hit but totally forgets to stun the healing or interrupt a damaging cast, in stormtalon how many have not died because nobody stunned the thunder of the trash or stuns Stormtalon himself.
 
Healers and tanks are in a different boat, gear is sometimes a bit low and i once got into a dungeon where no one had healing gear and 2 medics were trying to heal the tank... when i came in with full healing gear it was clear sailing from then on. Before i go in with new members who wants to try tanking or healing I often provide them the missing gear since it helps loads to go in a little prepared. 	
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What about those of us for whom veteran dungeons are likely going to be the pinnacle of our endgame? Those of us who enjoy challenge but may not have schedules amenable to raiding anymore?
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I've run about 60+ low level dungeons with new members in the guild.
 
The problem isn't so much the not standing in the red part but it's the interrupting of certain casts that is hard to grasp for most new players.
DPS goes in and try to keep his rotation and not to get hit but totally forgets to stun the healing or interrupt a damaging cast, in stormtalon how many have not died because nobody stunned the thunder of the trash or stuns Stormtalon himself.
 
Healers and tanks are in a different boat, gear is sometimes a bit low and i once got into a dungeon where no one had healing gear and 2 medics were trying to heal the tank... when i came in with full healing gear it was clear sailing from then on. Before i go in with new members who wants to try tanking or healing I often provide them the missing gear since it helps loads to go in a little prepared. 
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This is an interesting topic to me.  I'll say up front:  I don't use guides.  I don't watch videos.  I don't research boss fights beforehand.  I do this because personally, I judge my skill as a player based on how well I and my group can *figure out* the boss fights.  If I have someone holding my hand through them, it's not nearly as much fun.
 
But, I am not a "normal" player, and everyone else shouldn't be penalized because of the way I like to play.  Even on runs that I do, I take a few minutes before we start a boss fight and talk about the types of attacks that the boss does and how to manage them.
 
I like the idea of being able to get an in-game/in-character tip.  Something that helps prepare you for the fight, but isn't too spoiler-ish and doesn't pull players out of the game.  That would help new groups who don't have someone experienced along to get a leg up on the content.	
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Loremasters will be pleased to see a small tidbit of information that reads something like:  "The forgemaster is a strong foe, and his volcanic strike truuuuly brings the fiery pain.  A group of adventures capable of subduing him during his powerful strike would see his downfall much quicker, and without having to visit the armor shop to repair the dents later."
 
You know, stupid shit like that that lore people like.  It serves a purpose, adds flavor, and benefits just about everyone.
 
The only thing I demand is that the NPC be called Eclips that tells you all of those things.	
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Loremasters will be pleased to see a small tidbit of information that reads something like:  "The forgemaster is a strong foe, and his volcanic strike truuuuly brings the fiery pain.  A group of adventures capable of subduing him during his powerful strike would see his downfall much quicker, and without having to visit the armor shop to repair the dents later."
 
You know, stupid shit like that that lore people like.  It serves a purpose, adds flavor, and benefits just about everyone.
 
The only thing I demand is that the NPC be called Eclips that tells you all of those things.
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