Report 1116

Report #1116
Skillset: Dreamweaving Skill: Various
 Org: (None) Status: Completed Apr 2015
Furies' Decision:
Approved.
Problem: This report serves as an extension of report 1333. See that report for
the problem. Solutions 1-3 are all one solution, separated for ease of reading.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #1: A) All mana drains in Dreamweaving are converted to
 ego drains. B) Eternalsleep's requirements are
 changed to asleep + < 50% ego.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #2: C) Sleepmist is changed to cause passive sleep ticks.
 Can be imbued in demense for druids/mages or passives
 for chemwood users (similar to recent illusions
 updates). D) Deepsleep becomes a double-sleep hit
 with a 1 power cost.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #3: E) Void is changed to a defense for the Dreamweaver,
 with a small (2-3) power cost. When active, any
 Dreamweaving attacks used to put someone to sleep
 (sleepmist, slumber, deepsleep) decrease the chance
 of waking on each tick for the WAKE counter (15%
 instead of 25% chance to wake on each tick, or
 similar). This defense would either last for a set
 time (e.g. 60 seconds), or for a certain number of
 attacks (e.g. 5 attacks). F) General tiredness
 mechanics are adjusted so that players run on their
 own clock instead of a global clock for tiredness
 regen, meaning it's no longer possible for players to
 wake up from tiredness regen immediately after being
 put to sleep (they'd have to wait one tick of their
 individual timer before they could wake up naturally).
Player Comments:
---[Maligorn on 4/28 @ 05:44 writes]:
Made a comment on report 1340, these two propositions can't exist without one
going, and I think that Minstrelry should take the hit more than this
overarching DW report.
---[Viynain on 4/28 @ 06:13 writes]:
Rather than devolving this into another argument why 1340 should or should not
go in (which was discussed, at length, over Envoys and the concerns addressed
again), looking at this report, I'd prefer the E portion to last a set 60s
rather than for the next amount of attacks. Overall, I'm in favour of leading DW
away from the tiredness mechanic and more onto the ego-drain route to land a
kill.
---[Shuyin on 4/28 @ 06:17 writes]:
1340 came before 1116. There is no reason to bog this report down due to a
proposed report (that came first) which isn't even guaranteed to go in as is, if
at all. This report looks good though, I'm pretty down with moving away from all
sorts of attrition as a whole
---[Vivet on 4/28 @ 07:00 writes]:
I'm a little confused on what "tiredness regen" is. This implies to me the
chance to wake on each wake-tic, which iirc is currently affected by endurance
not being 100%. How will this work when endurance is gone, if at all, or am I
reading this incorrectly?
---[Raeri on 4/28 @ 08:19 writes]:
I would agree with a set timer for E. Else agree with report. I assume sleepmist
will respect insomnia in this suggestion?
---[Elanorwen on 4/28 @ 14:45 writes]:
I do not see the reason for changing dreamweaving to an ego-based skillset, and
it really makes no sense to me to do so. As it stands, it will support all of
one organization when it affects six organizations, two of them more than the
rest (With Hartstone and Blacktalon not having access to psionics) Definitely
not supporting the proposed Solution 1.
---[Shuyin on 4/28 @ 15:28 writes]:
Which orgs would that be? 4 of the 6 organizations all have TPs. Elaborate
please
---[Enyalida on 4/28 @ 15:29 writes]:
How fast are wake ticks? I'm concerned that this will give a close-to-free
triple sleep with no setup every 10 seconds to mages like the Geomancers, who
have a 3p timerkill. Getting unlucky (or even lucky, but not waking up in time
to cure their sprawl+broken limb+slickness combos and stop the chasm) and having
to repeat the procedure every 10 seconds is too much. The ego change hurts the
forests (Who have no real ego draining or ego based kills) while either
providing no change or a buff to the cities (who have TP ego-based kills).
Removing passive sleep is admirable, but honestly - it's the last thing
dreamweaving has that makes it at all usable to druids, and this change provides
no comparable use to druids as it/they stand. I don't support this change in a
vacuum, dreamweaving needs substantial reworks.
---[Ieptix on 4/28 @ 17:29 writes]:
I suppose I should have been a bit more specific about sleep mechanics when I
posted this up. So, here is how sleep currently works: every 3.3 seconds, a
global timer fires for every person asleep, which handles
health/endurance/tiredness regen - when all three are full, the player wakens
automatically. Part F in the solutions changes this to be a per-player timer
instead of global, so that you can't get (un)lucky and put someone to sleep .1
seconds before the timer hits, causing the sleep to end instantly. The wake
timer is what happens after a person enters the WAKE command, and it fires once
per second and has a 25% chance at each tick to wake the person up, and it fires
until the player is awakened. The void idea would reduce the chance per tick
from 25% to some X < 25%, replacing the idea from report 1333 of having the
chance to wake scale based on mana/ego.
---[Viynain on 4/29 @ 01:20 writes]:
The initial proposal actually included a tie to mana levels and awake times, but
would have caused too much overlap with other manakill builds and thus was
switched over to ego, per the suggestion of another envoy. @Raeri: sleepmist
will indeed respect insomnia much as any hit of sleep currently does.
@Elanorwen: This report is constructed to address problems within the skillset
itself, rather than being built to supplement a specific group (Gaudi) as you're
implying. However, with this in mind, synergy will always be a part of the
group-based dynamic of Lusternia, but the number of orgs this would supplement
is much more than just the one you're focusing on.
---[Viynain on 4/29 @ 01:32 writes]:
@Enyalida While passive wake tics will be affected by Void, a victim will still
be awakened by active/passive damage caused by a demesne if the effects are
included (as Rockslide would, to break legs). Barring this (if SM were made to
hit last in a meld tic, for example), metawake is still a thing, and mana drains
for upkeep become less of an issue for the victim when facing a DW since they'd
be shifting over to an egokill method. As far as forests go, these changes could
arguably be more effective for druids who can also sap. -chemwood classes stand
at the same level as a mage would to upkeep sleep on a victim, but shouldn't be
overwhelming overall (subject to testing). Lastly, as far as substantial reworks
go, this has been brought up, and been deemed unviable with the current Overhaul
project, which I agree with. We have to work within our current scope or keep
the sleep attrition which isn't favored by anyone.
---[Elanorwen on 4/29 @ 13:57 writes]:
I personally don't see how this helps any other organization. The comment about
how direct damage would wake an enemy is amusing at best. If there was no way to
control what effects were in a meld, sure, I'd grant you that there will be
something to awaken the target. As it stands, if someone is going for a sleep
stack, they will be dampening/not raising their damage dealing meld effects.
Metawake is certainly a thing, sure... but only if one doesn't mention the fact
that dreamweavers also have a way to strip metawake in the first place. Moving
away from mana levels only matters if mana levels affect chance to wake. As they
do not in this iteration, I don't see how the change to ego is beneficial.
---[Ushaara on 4/29 @ 15:15 writes]:
I'm alright with most of this, but very wary of any changes to the wake counter
in part (E). Did a quick bit of code to see how a 15% chance of waking on a 1s
tick works out sleep duration wise and was seeing a few too many sleeps with
durations > 12s and even upper sleep durations extending past 20s. With
dreamweavers readily able to drop metawake with Induce/Order, if there is any
change to wake timers, I think they should be accompanied with a forced sleep
duration hardcap. As to what that hardcap should be? Can debate a bit, my own
suggestion would be hardcap of 12s.
---[Ushaara on 4/29 @ 15:29 writes]:
As an fyi: 15% wake chance (blue) and 25% wake chance (yellow) contrasted:
http://fiddle.jshell.net/stbL9kv9/show/
---[Ieptix on 4/29 @ 16:20 writes]:
A cap on wake time is a thing that could be done.
---[Elanorwen on 4/29 @ 17:21 writes]:
As it stands, the changes to the wake code are likely to make any combination of
dreamweaver + any timed insta king, as well... at a 12s cap on wake timer, a
mugwump geomancer can likely deepsleep and chasm without any kind of issue. Add
some hindering from the meld and it's an automatic success chasm. I actually
hadn't considered that bit, but the more I think about it, the less appealing
these solutions become
---[Shuyin on 4/29 @ 20:17 writes]:
Wouldnt that same meld wake them up anyway due to the damage. iirc many mage
meld effects do a little bit of damage so keeping them asleep while the meld is
active makes it difficult. lastly if youre fighting a dw geo, it would be pretty
obvious what they would be going for, so you should be able to an eye out for it
when they get void up. keep alert. I will agree though that maybe we should
discuss a way to cure void if it becomes impossible to defend
---[Viynain on 4/30 @ 01:49 writes]:
Oh, that's a neat simulation, @Ushaara - thanks. It helps with gauging
probability better, and paints a more comprehensible issue than theory crafting
could. I agree that theres a good probability DWs + timed instakills like Chasm
could be too easily pulled off. Rather than enabling timed instakills even more,
the delay on wake time was first introduced to prevent the instantaneous awakens
that altogether kill EternalSleeps viability. I like the idea of a hard cap on
wake times to curb the probability of an overlong delay, and would lean towards
a 6-8s max rather than 12s maybe. As a victim, it looks easier to recover and
escape from an 6-8s sleep than it would be from a 12s one, yet still potentially
allows for an ES to land.
---[Lerad on 4/30 @ 02:36 writes]:
I believe the proposal with a hardcap on sleep at 6-8s will be fine and
reasonable enough that a straight sleep->chasm won't really work. Incidentally,
I was the one who suggested changing DW sleep (and therefore eternalsleep) to
being ego-based, not because I wanted to help boost Minstrels or Gaudiguch, but
because I didn't want a mana-scaled wake chance to boost hex wiccans and their
really annoying sleep tactics even more. On a related note, if these changes go
in, could we remove the effect of adding tiredness levels to a person when they
are hit by a sleep attack, please? It was put in, if I remember, specifically to
help DWs drain tiredness levels for EternalSleep. Since that should no longer be
a factor, let's remove the attrition from sleep attacks.
---[Viynain on 4/30 @ 03:03 writes]:
I talked the numbers out a bit more with envoys and found that on a neutral-EQ
race, Deepsleep is at about 4.7s cast speed, and Channel (active ego drain) is
at a 4.3s cast speed. Assuming an 8s hardcap on sleep delays, even in the
unluckiest circumstance, a victim will always wake up (and subsequently cure
ego) faster than the DW would who looks to induce sleeps and drains for the
EternalSleep kill. Lengthening the delay unfavorably empowers timed instakills,
so I'd move to speeding up the base speed of both DeepSleep/Slumber and Channel
to 3.5s to allow for a possible chain on a sleeping target before they hit the
guaranteed awaken time. They can still wake up randomly between the 1-8s, but
this should give DWs the flexibility needed to still work towards a kill.
---[Viynain on 4/30 @ 03:11 writes]:
Oh, and with the above, the hardcap should be at 8s so that the speed works out
for DWs, but not for timed instakills. As a note, passive ego drains from
SleepMist will approximately be 7%+60 every hit, and Channel drains for about
double that. It was considered to raise the drain amount of Channel instead of
speeding up the two skills, but I wanted to avoid a potential double-haegl
situation but for ego. Reducing casting speed for DeepSleep/Channel should
manage the goal well within limits.
---[Raeri on 4/30 @ 06:21 writes]:
Does sleepmist currently hit on elevation changes as well as room movement? If
not, that could be an addition that lets druids bounce their targets to generate
ego drains through demesne too if neede, in place of the current
bleeding/clotting pressure on mana they have.
---[Enyalida on 4/30 @ 14:04 writes]:
@Viynain Except that sleepmist will do a sleep hit and can be timed to demesne
to immediately put people back to sleep. Dreamweavers can easily drop metawake.
No, this change is not better for druids who can sap, that was part of my entire
point. This change will NOT make eternalsleep viable by any stretch of the
imagination, anything relating to a DW's ability to directly (solo) drain ego to
the point of eternalsleep is a total red herring, unless we're rehauling the
skillset, at which point more interesting and less gimmicky/unfair things can be
slotted in